(Gentle music) >> Hello and welcome to the Cube here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier here, joined by Platform nine, Amelia Bell the Chief Revenue Officer, really digging into the conversation around Kubernetes Cloud native and the journey this next generation cloud. Amelia, thanks for coming in and joining me today. >> Thank you, thank you. Great pleasure to be here. >> So, CRO, chief Revenue Officer. So you're mainly in charge of serving the customers, making sure they're they're happy with the solution you guys have. >> That's right. >> And this market must be pretty exciting. >> Oh, it's very exciting and we are seeing a lot of new use cases coming up all the time. So part of my job is to obtain new customers but then of course, service our existing customers and then there's a constant evolution. Nothing is standing still right now. >> We've had all your co-founders on, on the show here and we've kind of talked about the trends and where you guys have come from, where you guys are going now. And it's interesting, if you look at the cloud native market, the scale is still huge. You seeing now this next wave of AI coming on, which I call that's the real web three in my mind in terms of like the next experiences really still points to data infrastructure scale. These next gen apps are coming. And so that's being built on the previous generation of DevSecOps. >> Right >> And so a lot of enterprises are having to grow up really, really fast >> Right. >> And figure out, okay, I got to have scale I got large scale data, I got horizontal scalability I got to apply machine learning now the new software engineering practice. And then, oh, by the way I got the Kubernetes clusters I got to manage >> Right. >> I got what's containers weather, the security problems. This is a really complicated but important area of build out right now in the marketplace. >> Right. What are you seeing? >> So it's, it's really important that the infrastructure is not the hindrance in these cases. And we, one of our customers is in fact a large AI company and we, I met with them yesterday and asked them, you know, why are you giving that to us? You've got really smart engineers. They can run and create the infrastructure, you know in a custom way that you want it. And they said, we've got to be core to our business. There's plenty of work to do just on delivering the AI capabilities, and there's plenty of work to do. We can't get bogged down in the infrastructure. We don't want to have people running the engine we want them driving the car. We want them creating value on top of that. so they can't have the infrastructure being the bottleneck for them. >> It's interesting, the AI companies, that's their value proposition to their customers is that they don't want the technical talent. >> Right. >> Working on, you know, non-differentiated heavy lifting things. >> Right. >> And automate those and scale it up. Can you talk about the problem that you guys are solving? Because there's a lot going on here. >> Yeah. >> You can look at all aspects of the DevOps scale. There's a lot of little problems, some big problems. What are you guys focusing on? What's the bullseye for Platform known? >> Okay, so the bullseye is that Kubernetes infrastructure is really hard, right? It's really hard to create and run. So we introduce a time to market efficiency, let's get this up and running and let's get you into production and and producing results for your customers fast. But at the same time, let's reduce your cost and complexity and increase reliability. So, >> And what are some of the things that they're having problems with that are breaking? Is it more of updates on code? Is it size of the, I mean clusters they have, what what is it more operational? What are the, what are some of the things that are that kind of get them to call you guys up? What's the main thing? >> It's the operations. It's all operations. So what, what happens is that if you have a look at Kubernetes platform it's made up of many, many components. And that's where it gets complex. It's not just Kubernetes. There's load balances, networking, there's observability. All these things have to operate together. And all the piece parts have to be upgraded and maintained. The integrations need to work, you need to have probes into the system to predict where problems can be coming. So the operational part of it is complex. So you need to be observing not only your clusters in the health of the clusters and the nodes and so on but the health of the platform itself. >> We're going to get Peter Frey in on here after I talk about some of the technical issues on deployments. But what's the, what's the big decision for the customer? Because there's kind of, there's two schools of thought. One is, I'm going to build my own and have my team build it or I'm going to go with a partner >> Right. >> Say platform nine, what's the trade offs there? Because it seems to me that, that there's a there's a certain area of where it's core competency but I can outsource it or partner with it and, and work with platform nine versus trying to take it all on internally >> Right. >> Of which requires more costs. So there's a, there's a line where you kind of like figure out that customers have to figure out that, that piece >> Right >> What do, what's your view on that? Because I'm hearing that more people are saying, hey I want to, I want to focus my people on solutions. The app side, not so much the ops >> Right. >> What's the trade off? How do you talk about? >> It's a really interesting question because most companies think they have two options. It's either a DIY option and they love that engineers love playing with the new and on the latest. And then they think the other option is going to cloud, public cloud and have it semi managed by them. And you get very different out of those. So in the DIY you get flexibility coz you get to choose your infrastructure but then you've got all the complexities of the DIY piece. You've got to not only choose all your components but you've got to keep them working. Now if you go to public cloud option, you lose flexibility because a lot of those choices are made for you but you gain agility because quite frankly it's really easy to spin up clusters. So what we are, is that in the middle we bring the agility and the flexibility because we bring the control plane that allows you to spin up clusters and and lifecycle manage them very quickly. So the agility's there but you can do it on the infrastructure of your choice. And in the DIY culture, one of the hardest things to do actually is to convince them they don't have to do it themselves. They can focus on higher value activities, which are more focused on delivering outcomes to their customers. >> So you provide the solution that allows them to feel like they're billing it themselves. >> Correct. >> And get these scale and speed and the efficiencies of the op side. So it's kind of the best of both worlds. It's not a full outsource. >> Right, right. >> You're bringing them in to make their jobs easier >> Right, That's right. So they get choices. >> Yeah. >> We, we, they get choices on how they build it and then we run and operate it for them. But they, they have all the observability. The benefit is that if we are managing their operations and most of our customers choose the managed operations piece of it, then they don't. If something goes wrong, we fix that and they, they they get told, oh, by the way, you had a problem. We've dealt with it. But in the other model is they've got to create all that observability themselves and they've got to get ahead of the issues themselves, and then they've got to raise tickets to whoever they need to raise tickets to. Whereas we have things like auto ticket generation and so on where, look, just drive the car let us worry about the engine and all of that. Let us deal with that. And you can choose whatever you want about the engine but let us manage it for you. So >> What do you, what do you say to folks out there that are may have a need for platform nine? What's the signals inside their company that they should be calling you guys up and, and leaning in with platform nine? >> Right. >> Is it more sprawl on on clusters? Is it more errors? Is it more tickets? Is it more hassle? What are some of the signs? If someone's watching this say, hey I have, I have an issue with this. >> I would say, if there's operational inefficiencies you can't get things to market fast enough because you are building this and it's just taking too long you're spending way too much time operationally on the infrastructure, then you are, you are not using your resources where they should best be used. And, and that is delivering services to the customer. >> Ed me Hora on for International Women's Day. And she was talking about how they love to solve complex problems on the engineering team at Platform nine. It's going to get pretty complex with the edge emerging >> Indeed >> and cloud native on-premises distributed computing. >> Indeed. >> essentially is what it is. That's kind of the core DNA of the team. >> Yeah. >> What, how does that translate to the customers? Because IT seems to be, okay, I have virtual machines were great, now I got to scale up and and convert over a transform to containers, Kubernetes >> Right. >> And then large scale app, app applications. >> Right, so when it comes to Edge it gets complex pretty fast because it's highly distributed. So how do you have standardization and governance across all the different edge locations? So what we bring into play is an ability to, um, at each edge, location eh, provision from bare metal up all the way up to the application. So let's say you have thousands of stores and you want to modernize those stores, you know rather than having a server being sent somewhere to have an image loaded up and then sent that and then you've got to send a technical guide to the store and you've got to implement it all there. Forget all that. That's just, that's just a ridiculous waste of time. So what we've done is we've created the ability where the server can just be sent to the store. You can get your barista or your chef just to plug it in, right? You don't need to send any technical person over there. As long as we have access to it, we get access to it and we provision the whole thing from bare metal up and then we can maintain it according to the standards that are needed and upgrade accordingly. And that gives standardization across all your stores or edge locations or 5G towers or whatever it is, distribution centers. And we can create nice governance and good standardization which allows them to innovate fast as well. >> So this is a real opportunity for you guys. >> Yeah. >> This is an advantage from your expertise. >> Yes. >> The edge piece, dropping in a box, self-provisioning. >> That's right. So yeah. >> Can people do that? What's the, >> No, actually it, it's, it's very difficult to do. I I, from my understanding, we're the only people that can provision it from bare metal up, right? So if anyone has a different story, I'd love to hear about that. But that's my understanding today. >> That's a good value purpose. So talk about the value of the customer. What kind of scope do you got? Can you scope some of the customer environments you have from >> Sure. >> From, you know, small to the large, how give us an idea of the order of magnitude of the >> Yeah, so, so small customers may have 20 clusters or something like that. 20 nodes, I beg your pardon. Our large customers, like we're we are scaling one particular distributed environment from 2200 nodes to 10,000 nodes by the end of this year and 26,000 nodes next year. We have another customer that's scaling up to 10,000 nodes this year as well. So we have some very large scale, but some smaller ones too. And we're, we're happy to work with either end. >> Okay, so pretend I'm a customer. I'm really, I got pain and Kubernetes like I want to, I can't hire enough people. I want to have my all focus. What's the pitch? >> Okay. So skill shortage is something that that everyone is facing right now. And if, if you've got skill shortage it's going to be really hard to hire if you are competing against really, you know, high salary you know, offering companies that are out there. So the pitch is, let us do it for you. We have, we have a team of excellent probably the best Kubernetes engineers on the planet. We will create your environment for you. We will get it up and running. We will allow you to, you know, run your applica, just consume the platform, we'll run it for you. We'll have SLAs and up times guaranteed and you can just focus on delivering the software and the value needed to your customers. >> What are some of the testimonials that you get from people? Just anecdotally, what do they say? Oh my god, you guys save. >> Yeah. >> Our butts. >> Yeah. >> This is amazing. We just shipped our code out much faster. >> Yeah. >> What are some of the things that you hear? >> So, so the number one thing I hear is it just works right? It's, we don't have to worry about it, it just works. So that, that's a really great feedback that we get. The other thing I hear is if we do have issues that your team are amazing, they they fix things, they're proactive, you know, they're we really enjoy working with you. So from, from that perspective, that's great. But the other side of it is we hear things like if we were to do that ourselves we would've taken six to 12 months to build that. And you guys have just saved us six to 12 months. The other thing that we hear is with the same two engineers we started on, you know, a hundred nodes we're now running thousands of nodes. We have not had to increase the size of the team and expand and scale exponentially. >> Awesome. What's next for you guys? What's on your, your plate? >> Yeah. >> With CRO, what's some of the goals you have? >> Yeah, so growth of course as a CRO, you don't get away from that. We've got some very exciting, actually, initiatives coming up. One of the things that we are seeing a lot of demand for and is, is in the area of virtualization bringing virtual machine, virtual virtual containers, sorry I'm saying that all wrong. Bringing virtual machine, the virtual machines onto the cloud native infrastructure using Kubernetes technology. So that provides a, an excellent stepping stone for those guys who are in the virtualization world. And they can't move to containers, they can't refactor their applications and workloads fast enough. So just bring your virtual machine and put it onto the container infrastructure. So we're seeing a lot of demand for that, because it provides an excellent stepping stone. Why not use Kubernetes to orchestrate virtual the virtual world? And then we've got some really interesting cost optimization. >> So a lot of migration kind of thinking around VMs and >> Oh, tremendous. The, the VM world is just massively bigger than the container world right now. So you can't ignore that. So we are providing basically the evolution, the the journey for the customers to utilize the greatest of technologies without having to do that in a, in a in a way that just breaks the bank and they can't get there fast enough. So we provide those stepping stones for them. Yeah. >> Amelia thank you for coming on. Sharing. >> Thank you. >> The update on platform nine. Congratulations on your big accounts you have and >> thank you. >> And the world could get more complex, which Means >> indeed >> have more customers. >> Thank you, thank you John. Appreciate that. Thank you. >> I'm John Furry. You're watching Platform nine and the Cube Conversations here. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage here in Las Vegas for wall-to-wall coverage. It is re:Invent 2022, our 10th year with theCUBE. Dave and I started this journey 10 years ago here at re:Invent. There are two sets, here, a set upstairs. Great content, I'm here with Paul Gillin, my cohost. Paul's out reporting on the floor, doing some interviews. Paul, what do you think so far? It's pretty crazy activity going on here. >> Well, the activity hasn't declined at all. I mean here we are in day three of the show and it's just as busy out there as it was in day one. And there's just an energy here that you can feel, it's palpable. There is a lot of activity around developers, a lot around data. Which actually brings us a good segue into our next guest because one of the leaders in data management in the cloud is MariaDB. And John Bakke is the CRO at MariaDB, and here to talk to us about your cloud version and how open source is going for you. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> Paul: Thanks for joining us. >> To get the update on the product, what do you guys do on the relation to AWS? How's that going? Give us a quick update. >> In the relational database? >> No, no. The relationship with AWS >> Oh, with AWS? >> And SkySQL, what's the update? >> There's no relationship that we have that's more important than the AWS relationship. We're building our cloud, our premier cloud service called SkySQL on AWS. And they offer the best in class infrastructure for a SaaS company to build what they're building. And for us, it's a database service, right? And then beyond that, they help you from the business side, right? They try to get you lined up in the marketplace and make it possible for you to work best with customers. And then from a customer perspective, they're super helpful in not only finding prospective customers, but making that customer successful. 'Cause everybody's got a vested interest in the outcome. Right? >> Yeah, a little tongue twister there. Relational data-based relationship. We've got relational databases, we've got unstructured, data is at the center of the value proposition. Swami's keynote today and the Adam CEO's keynote, data and security dominated the keynotes >> John: Yes. >> and the conversations. So, this is real. The customers are really wanting to accelerate the developer experience, >> John: Yep. >> Developer pipe lining, more code faster, more horsepower under the hood. But this data conversation, it just never goes away. The world's keeping on coming around. >> John: It never goes away. I've been in this business for almost 30 years and we're still talking about the same key factors, right? Reliability, availability, performance, security. These things are pervasive in the data management because it's such a critical aspect to success. >> Yeah, in this case of SkySQL, you have both a transactional and an analytical engine in one. >> John: That's correct. >> Right? >> John: Yep. >> And that was a, what has the customer adoption been like of that hybrid, or I guess not a hybrid, but a dual function? >> Yeah. So the thing that makes that important is that instead of having siloed services, you have integrated data services. And a lot of times when you ask a question that's analytical it might depend on a transaction. And so, that makes the entire experience best for the developer, right? So, to take that further, we also, in SkySQL, offer a geospatial offering that integrates with all of that. And then we even take it further than that with distributed database with Xpand or ready to be Xpand. >> A lot of discussion. Geospatial announcement today on stage, just the diversity of data, and your experience in the industry. There's not the one database that rule them all anymore. There's a lot of databases out there. How are customers dealing with, I won't say database for all, 'Cause you need databases. And then you've got real time transactional, you got batch going on, you got streaming data, all kinds of data use cases now, all kind of having to be rolled together. What's your reaction? What's your take on the state of data and databases? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I started in this business, there were four databases, and now there's 400 databases. And the best databases really facilitate great application development. So having as many of those services in real time or in analytics as possible means that you are a database for everyone or for all users, right? And customers don't want to use multiple databases. Sometimes they feel like they're forced to do that, but if you're like MariaDB, then you offer all of those capabilities in an integrated way that makes the developer move faster. >> Amazon made a number of announcements this morning in the data management area, including geospatial support on RDS, I believe. How do you, I guess, coordinate yourself, your sales message with their sales message, given that you are partners, but they are competing with you in some ways? >> Yeah, there's always some cooperatition, I guess, that happens with AWS in the various product silos that they're offering their customers. For us, we're one of thousands of obviously partners that they have. And we're out there trying to do what our customers want, which is to have those services integrated, not glued together with a variety of different integration software. We want it integrated in the service so that it's one data provision, data capability for the application developer. It makes for a better experience for the developer in the end. >> On the customer side, what's the big activity? I mean, you got the on-premises database, you've got the cloud. When should a customer decide, or what's the signals to them that they should either move to the cloud, or change, be distributed? What are some of the forcing functions? What does the mark look like? >> Yeah, I've come a long way on this, but my opinion is that every customer should be in the cloud. And the reason simply is the economies that are involved, the pace of execution, the resilience and dependability of the cloud, Amazon being the leader in that space. So if you were to ask me, right now is the time to be in SkySQL because it's the premier data service in the cloud. So I would take my customer out of their on-prem and put them all in AWS, on SkySQL, if I could. Not everybody's ready for that, but my opinion is that the security is there, the reliability, the privacy, all of the things that maybe are legacy concerns, it's all been proven to be adequate and probably even better because of all of the economies of scale that you get out of being in the cloud just generally. >> Now, MariaDB, you started on-premise though. You still have a significant customer base on-premise. What, if anything are you doing to encourage them to migrate to the cloud? >> Well, so we have hundreds and hundreds of customers as MariaDB, and we weren't the first database company to put their database in the cloud, but watching it unfold helped us realize that we're going to put MariaDB in its best form factor in SkySQL. It's the only place you could get the enterprise version of MariaDB in a cloud service, right? So when we look at our customers on-prem, we're constantly telling them, obviously, that we have a cloud service. When they subscribe, we show them the efficiencies and the economies, and we do get customers that are moving. We had a customer go to Telefonica over in the UK that moved from an on-premise to manage their wifi services across Europe. And they're very happy. They were one of our very first SkySQL customers. And that has routinely proven itself to be a path towards not only a better operation for the customer, they're up more, they have fewer outages because they're not inflicting their own self wounds that they have in their own data center. They're running on world class infrastructure on world class databases. >> What are some of those self wounds? Is it personnel, kind of manual mistakes, just outages, reliability? What's the real cause, and then what's the benefit alternative in the cloud that is outside? >> Yeah. I mean, I think, when you repeat the same database implementation over and over on the infrastructure, it gets tested thousands and thousands of times. Whereas if I'm a database team and I install it once, I've tested it one time, and I can't account for all of the things that might happen in the future. So the benefit of the cloud is that you just get that repeat ability that happens and all of the sort of the kinks and bugs and issues are worked out of the system. And that's why it's just fundamentally better. We get 99.9999% uptime because all of those mistakes have been made, solved, and fixed. >> Fully managed, obviously. >> Yes. Right. >> Huge benefit. >> John: Right. >> And people are moving, it's just a great benefit. >> John: Yeah. >> So I'm a fan obviously. I think it's a great way to go. I got to ask about the security though, because big conversation here is security. What's the security posture? What's the security story to customers with SkySQL and MariaDB? >> Right, right, right. So we've taken the server, which was the initial product that MariaDB was founded upon, right? And we've come a long way over the several years that we've been in business. In SkySQL, we have SOC 2 compliance, for example. So we've gone through commercial certifications to make sure that customers can depend that we are following processes, we have technology in place in order to secure and protect their data. And in that environment, it is repeatable. So every time a customer uses our DBaaS infrastructure, databases a service infrastructure called SkySQL, they're benefiting from all of the testing that's been done. They go there and do that themselves, they would've to go through months and months of processes in order to reach the same level of protection. >> Now MariaDB is distributed by design. Is that right? >> Yes. So we have a distributed database, it's called Xpand, MariaDB Xpand. And it's an option inside of SkySQL. It's the same cost as MariaDB server, but Xpand is distributed. And the easiest way to understand what distributed database is is to understand what it is not first. What it is not is like every other cloud database. So most of the databases strangely in the cloud are not distributed databases. They have one single database node in a cluster that is where all of the changes and rights happen. And that creates a bottleneck in the database. And that's why there's difficulties in scale. AWS actually talked about this in the keynote which is the difficulty around multi writer in the cloud. And that's what Xpand does. And it spreads out the reads and the rights to make it scalable, more performant, and more resilient. One node goes down, still stays up, but you get the benefit of the consistency and the parallelization that happens in Xpand. >> So when would a customer choose Xpand versus SkySQL Vanilla? >> So we have, I would say a lot of times, but the profile of our customers are typically like financial services, trade stores. We have Samsung Cloud, 500,000 transactions per second in an expand cluster where they run sort of their Samsung cloud for their mobile device unit. We have many customers like that where it's a commercial facing website often or a service where the brand depends on uptime. Okay. So if you're in exchange or if you are a mobile device company or an IOT company, you need those databases to be working all the time and scale broadly and have high performance. >> So you have resiliency built in essentially? >> Yes, yeah. And that's the major benefit of it. It hasn't been solved by anybody other than us in the cloud to be quite honest with you. >> That's a differentiator for sure. >> It is a huge differentiator, and there are a lot of interested parties. We're going to see that be the next discussion probably next year when we come back is, what's the state of distributed database? Because it's really become really the tip of the spear with the database industry right now. >> And what's the benefits of that? Just quickly describe why that's important? >> Obviously the performance and the resilience are the two we just talked about, but also the efficiency. So if you have a multi-node cluster of a single master database, that gets replicated four times, five times over, five times the cost. And so we're taking cost out, adding performance in. And so, you're really seeing a revolution there because you're getting a lot more for a lot less. And whenever you do that, you win the game. Right? >> Awesome. Yeah, that's true. And it seems like, okay, that might be more costly but you're not replicating. >> That's right. >> That's the key. >> Replicating just enough to be resilient but not excessively to be overly redundant. Right. >> Yeah. I find that the conversation this year is starting to unpack some of these cloud native embedded capabilities inside AWS. So are you guys doing more around, on the customer side, around marketplace? Are you guys, how do people consume products? >> Yeah. It's really both. So sometimes they come to us from AWS. AWS might say, "Hey, you know what," "we don't really have an answer." And that's specifically true on the expand side. They don't really have that in their list of databases yet. Right. Hopefully, we'll get out in front of them. But they oftentimes come through our front door where they're a MariaDB customer already, right? There's over a hundred thousand production systems with MariaDB in the world, and hundreds of thousands of users of the database. So they know our brand, not quite as well as AWS, but they know our brand... >> You've got a customer base. >> We do. Right. I mean people love MariaDB. They just think it's the database that they use for application development all the time. And when they see us release an offering like Xpand just a few years ago, they're interested, they want to use that. They want to see how that works. And then when they take it into production and it works as advertised, of course, success happens. Right? >> Well great stuff, John. Great to have you on theCUBE. Paul, I guess time we do the Insta challenge here. New format on theCUBE, we usually say at the end, summarize what's most important story for you or show, what's the bumper sticker? We kind of put it around more of an Instagram reel. What's your sizzle reel? What's your thought leadership statement? 30 seconds >> John: Thought leadership. >> John? >> So the thought leadership is really in scaling the cloud to the next generation. We believe MariaDB's Xpand product will be the the technology that fronts the next wave of database solutions in the cloud. And AWS has become instrumental in helping us do that with their infrastructure and all the help that they give us, I think at the end of the day, when the story on Xpand is written, it's going to be a very fun ride over the next few years. >> John, thank you. CRO, chief revenue officer of MariaDB, great to have you on. >> Thank you. >> 34-year veteran or so in databases. (laughs) >> You're putting a lot of age on me. I'm 29. I'm 29 again. (all laugh) >> I just graduated high school and I've been doing this for 10 years. Great to have you on theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks guys. Yeah. >> Thanks for sharing. >> Appreciate it. >> I'm John Furrier with Paul Gillin here live on the floor, wall-to-wall coverage. We're already into like 70 videos already. Got a whole another day, finish out day three. Keep watching theCUBE, thanks for watching. We'll be right back. (calm music)

>>The Cube presents UI Path Forward five. Brought to you by UI Path. >>Hi everybody. We're winding down. Day two, a forward five UI Path customer conference. This is the fourth time the Cube has been at a forward. Dave Nicholson, Dave Ante. Maureen Fleming is here. This is a program Vice President idc. She's got the data fresh survey data. We'd love to have the analyst on. And Kevin CRO is back on the cube. He's a partner for intelligent automation and digital. Upscaling is the operative word. Kevin, good to see you again, pwc. Good to see you. Thanks for coming on you guys. Yep. All right. We, we love idc. We love the data. You guys are all about it. So you've just completed a recent study. Tell us all about it. Who'd you survey? What was the objective? What'd you learn? >>Yeah, what we wanted to do was try to learn more about people who are adopting robotic process automation. So mainly large, you know, larger to midsize, enter midsize, large enterprises. And we wanted to figure out how many of them had a citizen developer program. And then we wanted to compare the difference between people who do not have that program and people who do, and what the difference is in terms of how, what kind of reach they have inside the enterprise, and also the different ways that, that they valued it. So the difference, so we asked the same questions of the, of these people without them knowing that we were actually looking for a citizen developer. And then we compared the results of that to see is it more valuable to have citizen developer and enterprise, or is it more valuable to have enterprise only? So what was the impact >>Global survey? >>It was North America. >>North America. Was it, was it we any kind of slice and dice in terms of industry or targets or you, >>We, we kept it across industry, cross industry. We're finding that RPA is adopting cross >>Industry way. Was it, was it UI path specific or more Any tech, Any automation, >>Any rpa. >>Okay. And top two or three findings. >>So one thing was, first off, the rapid growth rate in citizen, citizen developer programs grew 47% over a two year period. And so now for people who've adopted rpa, it's the majority there. They're, you know, it's a pervasive trend to >>See you're taking over, >>You know, right now the conclusion from that, and some other studies that I did that have similar conclusions is that we have to start learning to live with this idea that business users can learn how to develop. They are developing their driving value. And so now we just need to figure out how to build these sorts of programs accurately. And the other, the really key finding of it was that, that there was much more significant reach for people that were doing citizen developer plus enterprise automation, more reach, more processes touched, more employees impacted by it. And then on top of it, the, they rated the value, the people who had the combination rated the programs at a higher value across different measures. So effectively the, the combination is working out better than standalone top down automation. >>So Kevin, from what, what's your takeaway here? What does this mean to you and your customers? >>So I guess a, a couple things and just anecdotally, you know, building on what Marine found in the, in the survey, the concept of citizen development is a real concept and it's something that organizations are applying and trying to figure out how to apply at scale. The reason why they're doing it is twofold. One, early automation efforts struggled to get scale and they struggled to deliver value from a scale perspective. There were two major problems. The ability to identify the right opportunities and the ability to tackle a wide range of, from the little to the very large, often teams focus on the very large, but don't focus on the little, the little is important. The second part is thinking about how you create a better culture of innovation and actually drive identifying opportunities for the, the more, I'll call it technology professionals to focus on. And so, you know, there's been, you know, based on that big drive to say, okay, not how do we replace automation professionals with business users, you know, the random accountant, the random operations analyst. It's more around how do you actually engage them in innovation. And that in, in that engagement may involve actual hands on building of bots and technologies like UiPath or it might just involve generating ideas to get further engaged. >>So 47% growth. What's the catalyst for that kind of growth? Where's that come from? >>I scarcity? So, well there are a couple things. One is, you know, we all know about developer scarcity and it's strive to automate. You know, if you have an automation strategy in place, you wanna do this quickly and aggressively. But if you've got a shortage of, of people, you know, developers don't have enough, they're turning over. Then you go to, you go and figure out, well this is low code. And so why can't we train our business users who are the subject matter experts to do automation for themselves or their teams? So sort of think about this as the long tail, the things that that top down like enterprise, I think UiPath is calling it enterprise automation versus people automation. So, you know, so there's just different things that they work on as well. And there's also, you know, fearlessness on the part of a lot of people on the business side, they're not afraid of technology, they're not afraid of getting trained. >>And the other piece to me that made, like, I've covered this topic for a long time, and what I found originally when people started talking about citizen developers is that they, they were calling me and having inquiry about why these programs were failing. And when we would decompose the failure was because the ma their managers didn't give them any, they didn't put 'em in trading but wouldn't get, give 'em time to develop. And so they just could not, you know, they just were running into problems. And so with things that, things like PWC and what they're doing, they're sort of saying, here's the, here are the features of a program that matter, including being given time to develop and do that as part of your job. So >>Maureen, is there a minimum level size of organization that you find taking advantage of this? I mean, you know, where's the sweet spot for the value delivered from this kind of automation? >>Do you have an idea? Right. So we, we tended in some of the surveys, we tended to do like thousand employees up. So we were screening for that. But I also met with the, our, our analysts who covered smb, small midsize. She said that they've had that for a long time because they don't have these clear distinctions between IT and business. So then the question is, who are adopters of rpa, for example? And you know that that's still a little bit at, at, you know, the enterprise level, but, but citizen developer at it, it, it is SB is just a given concept. So, >>But is it, is there, is there an economy of scale that kicks in at a certain point? Have we been able to figure that out? I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of business process automation being such a competitive advantage that there becomes almost a divide because of smaller organization. Yes, they could go out and they can buy, they have access to the same software packages, but you have to build all of those processes. Yes. You have to develop those processes over time. So is there any sense for a divide possibly happening or what the, >>It's a really good question because they, you know, in a way people have to understand what a business process is, you know, and they need to understand what the technology can do. And so from that perspective, people who have thought leaders inside their organization and maybe have a chance to get out and look at broader topics might be more inclined to try this out and also identify directly as a problem. SMB also tends to try to buy package solutions. And you see larger enterprises say, well, you know, what we do is unique and so we should just sort of use horizontal technology and apply it at will where it's needed. And so for me that's kind of why we organize toward higher, you know, higher si, larger sizes. As it gets simplified, it's gonna go down into the SMB market though. >>So Kevin, when it comes to you guys, your client engagements, upscaling keeps, keep coming back to that word low code. Is it fundamental component of upscaling? Is it, is it, I don't say synonymous, but is it a prerequisite to have low code capabilities to scale? >>You know, from our perspective, I think the two biggest challenges with making this work, one is learning and development. How do you actually teach the skills in a way that allows people to apply them very quickly and give them the time to actually function right to the finding about managers not necessarily being supportive. And so you have to figure out, you know, what, you know, how do you actually create that right environment and give people the right tools? It's an area that we invested really heavily in from the PWC side with the, with the launch of our pro edge platform and really thinking about how to solve that. But then the problem that you're ultimately getting at once you solve the people equation is how do you get scale and how do you move quicker? And so the, you know, the, the, the, the biggest challenge is not should you let a, a business user build a bot. It's, you know, how do we actually build many bots, generate many ideas for the professional developers and actually create an ecosystem to move faster. Every client that we work with, it's all about, you know, how we're not moving fast enough. A COE cannot, you know, by itself automate an entire organization. And so, you know, the, you know, the, the this theme of scale really becomes, you know, the critical aspect of this >>Is the former other words, the the teaching and individual how to build a bot. Is that trivial or, or is that really not the big gate is what you're saying? It's, >>We don't think it's a big gate. I think the, you know, to the original question, I think the, the, the low code space is a ripe spot for this, you know, upskilling construct because you're not, you're not, you're, you're gauging with employees who don't have an undergraduate degree in computer science who are not IT professionals. And so giving someone, you know, a book on job and saying, go build an application's, probably not gonna be very productive. But with, with tools in the, in the low code space, be it RPA or be it other forms of lower code technology, you get people opportunity where they need to learn some technical concepts. You need to understand how the technology works and how basic programming techniques work, but you don't need to understand everything. And again, going back to the, the simple versus the complex, the goal here is not to turn people into professional developers. The goal is to get them engaged and, and create, you know, make them part of that company's digital transformation. >>But from what you just described, that's, to me it's basic logic skills. I mean you don't have to be, like I say, a assembly language programmer. Yeah. But you gotta understand and you gotta know the business process, right? I mean you have to be a domain expert. Yeah. >>But that, but that's the, that's the biggest advantage of this. You're engaging the people closest to the business process, right? You look at how most big IT projects failed was the same reason a lot of early automation efforts failed. You're creating, you know, a function that essentially lives in an ivory tower that's focused on, you know, where can I go out and find opportunities and automate. But you're not, those aren't the people that run the process day to day. Yeah, okay. You, you put it, you make those people that run the process day to day accountable, you're gonna get a different outcome >>And they'll lean in and get excited. Exactly. >>So where, where, where is that transition? I know it's easy to say, oh, you know, it's logic and people can do it, but what about having a bot whisperer in your, in your organization who's who, who literally says, you know, Maureen, I'm gonna come and sit with you on Friday and you're going to explain your frustrations to me and I'm gonna sit right next to you and I'm gonna code this bot for you and we're gonna test it and you're gonna tell me if it does what you want it to do. And Maureen doesn't need to understand how to move the widgets around and do anything. >>It's, you know, it's a great question cuz I think it's changing the nature of how you accelerate these efforts, right? I think you know, the, and if I go into early RPA days, the initial kind of thought process was let's just get a factory in here and build as many bots as possible. A lot of our client engagement today isn't always around our bot development services. It's around can you bring in coaches? Can you hold office hours? Exactly. We have an office hour construct, which I've never really had in my consulting career where we put, you know, I mean this obviously post covid when when people are in their offices, we put someone in a room and people can come by and get help. And I think having that, that coaching and mentoring construct is very helpful. What we've also seen, and I think it's a really critical success factor for clients to make this work, is thinking about how they pick a subset of their population and making them, you know, digital accelerators, digital champions, pick your word, not it professionals, peers who will actually get realtime dedicated. Right. And maybe a full time or a halftime job where that's exactly what they do. >>Maureen, we're out of time, but my last question for you is, when you do a survey like this, you know you have open ended sometimes and you analyze a survey, you take a bath in the data, write it up. There's always something that you wish you'd asked, which is great cuz then you could do it on the next one. What, was there anything in there that you wish you'd asked that you're gonna ask in the next one? Are you gonna explore in the next survey? >>Yeah. One of the things that I asked, one thing that I was glad I asked was, I, I, we, we spent time finding what were considered business side product champions or RPA champions and then we ask 'em what they did, how often they did, how much time they spent. But what I want, what I really, really wanna ask of my next survey, and I will, I've got a planned, is to find out how, how what percentage of population is involved with, with big a citizen developer and what activities are common and what are less common and you know, what their challenges are. So we'll be looking at a different kind of audience with this next >>Survey. Well, we'd love to have you back to talk about that. Just invite, Thank you very much. Come queue. Really appreciate it Kevin. Good to see you again. >>Good to see you. >>All right. And thank you for watching. Keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave Ante. We're here wrapping up day two of UI path forward. Five live from the Venetian, all Las Vegas. Super right back.

(bright music) >> Welcome back everyone to the live Cube coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for AWS re:Inforce 22, with a great guest here, Denise Hayman, CRO, Chief Revenue of Sonrai Security. Sonrai's a featured partner of Season Two, Episode Four of the upcoming AWS Startup Showcase, coming in late August, early September. Security themed startup focused event, check it out. awsstartups.com is the site. We're on Season Two. A lot of great startups, go check them out. Sonrai's in there, now for the second time. Denise, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Ah, thanks for having me. >> So you've been around the industry for a while. You've seen the waves of innovation. We heard encrypt everything today on the keynote. We heard a lot of cloud native. They didn't say shift left but they said don't bolt on security after the fact, be in the CI/CD pipeline or the DevStream. All that's kind of top of line, Amazon's talking cloud native all the time. This is kind of what you guys are in the middle of. I've covered your company, you've been on theCUBE before. Your, not you, but your teammates have. You guys have a unique value proposition. Take a minute to explain for the folks that don't know, we'll dig into it, but what you guys are doing. Why you're winning. What's the value proposition. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, Sonrai is, I mean what we do is it's, we're a total cloud solution, right. Obviously, right, this is what everybody says. But what we're dealing with is really, our superpower has to do with the data and identity pieces within that framework. And we're tying together all the relationships across the cloud, right. And this is a unique thing because customers are really talking to us about being able to protect their sensitive data, protect their identities. And not just people identities but the non-people identity piece is the hardest thing for them to reign in. >> Yeah. >> So, that's really what we specialize in. >> And you guys doing good, and some good reports on good sales, and good meetings happening here. Here at the show, the big theme to me, and again, listening to the keynotes, you hear, you can see what's, wasn't talk about. >> Mm-hmm. >> Ransomware wasn't talked about much. They didn't talk about air-gapped. They mentioned ransomware I think once. You know normal stuff, teamwork, encryption everywhere. But identity was sprinkled in everywhere. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think one of the, my favorite quotes was, I wrote it down, We've security in the development cycle CSD, they didn't say shift left. Don't bolt on any of that. Now, that's not new information. We know that don't bolt, >> Right. >> has been around for a while. He said, lessons learned, this is Stephen Schmidt, who's the CSO, top dog on security, who has access to what and why over permissive environments creates chaos. >> Absolutely. >> This is what you guys reign in. >> It is. >> Explain, explain that. >> Yeah, I mean, we just did a survey actually with AWS and Forrester around what are all the issues in this area that, that customers are concerned about and, and clouds in particular. One of the things that came out of it is like 95% of clouds are, what's called over privileged. Which means that there's access running amok, right. I mean, it, it is, is a crazy thing. And if you think about the, the whole value proposition of security it's to protect sensitive data, right. So if, if it's permissive out there and then sensitive data isn't being protected, I mean that, that's where we really reign it in. >> You know, it's interesting. I zoom out, I just put my historian hat on going back to the early days of my career in late eighties, early nineties. There's always, when you have these inflection points, there's always these problems that are actually opportunities. And DevOps, infrastructure as code was all about APS, all about the developer. And now open source is booming, open source is the software industry. Open source is it in the world. >> Right. >> That's now the software industry. Cloud scale has hit and now you have the Devs completely in charge. Now, what suffers now is the Ops and the Sec, Second Ops. Now Ops, DevOps. Now, DevSecOps is where all the action is. >> Yep. >> So the, the, the next thing to do is build an abstraction layer. That's what everyone's trying to do, build tools and platforms. And so that's where the action is here. This is kind of where the innovation's happening because the networks aren't the, aren't in charge anymore either. So, you now have this new migration up to higher level services and opportunities to take the complexity away. >> Mm-hmm. >> Because what's happened is customers are getting complexity. >> That's right. >> They're getting it shoved in their face, 'cause they want to do good with DevOps, scale up. But by default their success is also their challenge. >> Right. >> 'Cause of complexity. >> That's exactly right. >> This is, you agree with that. >> I do totally agree with that. >> If you, you believe that, then what's next. What happens next? >> You know, what I hear from customers has to do with two specific areas is they're really trying to understand control frameworks, right. And be able to take these scenarios and build them into something that they, where they can understand where the gaps are, right. And then on top of that building in automation. So, the automation is a, is a theme that we're hearing from everybody. Like how, how do they take and do things like, you know it's what we've been hearing for years, right. How do we automatically remediate? How do we automatically prioritize? How do we, how do we build that in so that they're not having to hire people alongside that, but can use software for that. >> The automation has become key. You got to find it first. >> Yes. >> You guys are also part of the DevCycle too. >> Yep. >> Explain that piece. So, I'm a developer, I'm an organization. You guys are on the front end. You're not bolt-on, right? >> We can do either. We prefer it when customers are willing to use us, right. At the very front end, right. Because anything that's built in the beginning doesn't have the extra cycles that you have to go through after the fact, right. So, if you can build security right in from the beginning and have the ownership where it needs to be, then you're not having to, to deal with it afterwards. >> Okay, so how do you guys, I'm putting my customer hat on for a second. A little hard, hard question, hard problem. I got active directory on Azure. I got, IM over here with AWS. I wanted them to look the same. Now, my on-premises, >> Ah. >> Is been booming, now I got cloud operations, >> Right. >> So, DevOps has moved to my premise and edge. So, what do I do? Do I throw everything out, do a redo. How do you, how do you guys talk about, talk to customers that have that chance, 'cause a lot of them are old school. >> Right. >> ID. >> And, and I think there's a, I mean there's an important distinction here which is there's the active directory identities right, that customers are used to. But then there's this whole other area of non-people identities, which is compute power and privileges and everything that gets going when you get you know, machines working together. And we're finding that it's about five-to-one in terms of how many identities are non-human identities versus human identity. >> Wow. >> So, so you actually have to look at, >> So, programmable access, basically. >> Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Right. >> Wow. >> And privileges and roles that are, you know accessed via different ways, right. Because that's how it's assigned, right. And people aren't really paying that close attention to it. So, from that scenario, like the AD thing of, of course that's important, right. To be able to, to take that and lift it into your cloud but it's actually even bigger to look at the bigger picture with the non-human identities, right. >> What about the CISOs out there that you talk to. You're in the front lines, >> Yep. >> talking to customers and you see what's coming on the roadmap. >> Yep. >> So, you kind of get the best of both worlds. See what they, what's coming out of engineering. What's the biggest problem CISOs are facing now? Is it the sprawl of the problems, the hacker space? Is it not enough talent? What, I mean, I see the fear, what are, what are they facing? How do you, how do you see that, and then what's your conversations like? >> Yeah. I mean the, the answer to that is unfortunately yes, right. They're dealing with all of those things. And, and here we are at the intersection of, you know, this huge complex thing around cloud that's happening. There's already a gap in terms of resources nevermind skills that are different skills than they used to have. So, I hear that a lot. The, the bigger thing I think I hear is they're trying to take the most advantage out of their current team. So, they're again, worried about how to operationalize things. So, if we bring this on, is it going to mean more headcount. Is it going to be, you know things that we have to invest in differently. And I was actually just with a CISO this morning, and the whole team was, was talking about the fact that bringing us on means they have, they can do it with less resource. >> Mm-hmm. >> Like this is a a resource help for them in this particular area. So, that that was their value proposition for us, which I loved. >> Let's talk about Adrian Cockcroft who retired from AWS. He was at Netflix before. He was a big DevOps guy. He talks about how agility's been great because from a sales perspective the old model was, he called it the, the big Indian wedding. You had to get everyone together, do a POC, you know, long sales cycles for big tech investments, proprietary. Now, open sources like speed dating. You can know what's good quickly and and try things quicker. How is that, how is that impacting your sales motions. Your customer engagements. Are they fast? Are they, are they test-tried before they buy? What's the engagement model that you, you see happening that the customers like the best. >> Yeah, hey, you know, because of the fact that we're kind of dealing with this serious part of the problem, right. With the identities and, and dealing with data aspects of it it's not as fast as I would like it to be, right. >> Yeah, it's pretty important, actually. >> They still need to get in and understand it. And then it's different if you're AWS environment versus other environments, right. We have to normalize all of that and bring it together. And it's such a new space, >> Yeah. >> that they all want to see it first. >> Yeah. >> Right, so. >> And, and the consequences are pretty big. >> They're huge. >> Yeah. >> Right, so the, I mean, the scenario here is we're still doing, in some cases we'll do workshops instead of a POV or a POC. 90% of the time though we're still doing a POV. >> Yeah, you got to. >> Right. So, they can see what it is. >> They got to get their hands on it. >> Yep. >> This is one of those things they got to see in action. What is the best-of-breed? If you had to say best-of-breed in identity looks like blank. How would you describe that from a customer's perspective? What do they need the most? Is it robustness? What's some of the things that you guys see as differentiators for having a best-of-breed solution like you guys have. >> A best-of-breed solution. I mean, for, for us, >> Or a relevant solution for that matter, for the solution. >> Yeah. I mean, for us, this, again, this identity issue it, for us, it's depth and it's continuous monitoring, right. Because the issue in the cloud is that there are new privileges that come out every single day, like to the tune of like 35,000 a year. So, even if at this exact moment, it's fine. It's not going to be in another moment, right. So, having that continuous monitoring in there, and, and it solves this issue that we hear from a lot of customers also around lateral movement, right. Because like a piece of compute can be on and off, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> within a few seconds, right. So, you can't use any of the old traditional things anymore. So to me, it's the continuous monitoring I think that's important. >> I think that, and the lateral movement piece, >> Yep. >> that you guys have is what I hear the most of the biggest fears. >> Mm-hmm. >> Someone gets in here and can move around, >> That's right. >> and that's dangerous. >> Mm-hmm. And, and no traditional tools will see it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. There's nothing in there unless you're instrumented down to that level, >> Yeah. >> which is what we do. You're not going to see it. >> I mean, when someone has a firewall, a perimeter based system, yeah, I'm in the castle, I'm moving around, but that's not the case here. This is built for full observability, >> That's right. >> Yet there's so many vulnerabilities. >> It's all open. Mm-hmm, yeah. And, and our view too, is, I mean you bring up vulnerabilities, right. It, it is, you know, a little bit of the darling, right. People start there. >> Yep. >> And, and our belief in our view is that, okay, that's nice. But, and you do have to do that. You have to be able to see everything right, >> Yep. >> to be able to operationalize it. But if you're not dealing with the sensitive data pieces right, and the identities and stuff that's at the core of what you're trying to do >> Yeah. >> then you're not going to solve the problem. >> Yeah. Denise, I want to ask you. Because you make what was it, five-to-one was the machine to humans. I think that's actually might be low, on the low end. If you could imagine. If you believe that's true. >> Yep. >> I believe that's true by the way If microservices continues to be the, be the wave. >> Oh, it'll just get bigger. >> Which it will. It's going to much bigger. >> Yeah. >> Turning on and off, so, the lateral movement opportunities are going to be greater. >> Yep. >> That's going to be a bigger factor. Okay, so how do I protect myself. Now, 'cause developer productivity is also important. >> Mm-hmm. >> 'Cause, I've heard horror stories like, >> Yep. >> Yeah, my Devs are cranking away. Uh-oh, something's out there. We don't know about it. Everyone has to stop, have a meeting. They get pulled off their task. It's kind of not agile. >> Right. Right. >> I mean, >> Yeah. And, and, in that vein, right. We have built the product around what we call swim lanes. So, the whole idea is we're prioritizing based on actual impact and context. So, if it's a sandbox, it probably doesn't matter as much as if it's like operational code that's out there where customers are accessing it, right. Or it's accessing sensitive data. So, we look at it from a swim lane perspective. When we try to get whoever needs to solve it back to the person that is responsible for it. So we can, we can set it up that way. >> Yeah. I think that, that's key insight into operationalizing this. >> Yep. >> And remediation is key. >> Yes. >> How, how much, how important is the timing of that. When you talk to your customer, I mean, timing is obviously going to be longer, but like seeing it's one thing, knowing what to do is another. >> Yep. >> Do you guys provide that? Is that some of the insights you guys provide? >> We do, it's almost like, you know, us. The, and again, there's context that's involved there, right? >> Yeah. >> So, some remediation from a priority perspective doesn't have to be immediate. And some of it is hair on fire, right. So, we provide actually, >> Yeah. >> a recommendation per each of those situations. And, and in some cases we can auto remediate, right. >> Yeah. >> If, it depends on what the customer's comfortable with, right. But, when I talk to customers about what is their favorite part of what we do it is the auto remediation. >> You know, one of the things on the keynotes, not to, not to go off tangent, one second here but, Kurt who runs platforms at AWS, >> Mm-hmm. >> went on his little baby project that he loves was this automated, automatic reasoning feature. >> Mm-hmm. >> Which essentially is advanced machine learning. >> Right. >> That can connect the dots. >> Yep. >> Not just predict stuff but like actually say this doesn't belong here. >> Right. >> That's advanced computer science. That's heavy duty coolness. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, operationalizing that way, the way you're saying it I'm imagining there's some future stuff coming around the corner. Can you share how you guys are working with AWS specifically? Is it with Amazon? You guys have your own secret sauce for the folks watching. 'Cause this remediation should, it only gets harder. You got to, you have to be smarter on your end, >> Yep. >> with your engineers. What's coming next. >> Oh gosh, I don't know how much of what's coming next I can share with you, except for tighter and tighter integrations with AWS, right. I've been at three meetings already today where we're talking about different AWS services and how we can be more tightly integrated and what's things we want out of their APIs to be able to further enhance what we can offer to our customers. So, there's a lot of those discussions happening right now. >> What, what are some of those conversations like? Without revealing. >> I mean, they have to do with, >> Maybe confidential privilege. >> privileged information. I don't mean like privileged information. >> Yep. I mean like privileges, right, >> Right. >> that are out there. >> Like what you can access, and what you can't. >> What you can, yes. And who and what can access it and what can't. And passing that information on to us, right. To be able to further remediate it for an AWS customer. That's, that's one. You know, things like other AWS services like CloudTrail and you know some of the other scenarios that they're talking about. Like we're, you know, we're getting deeper and deeper and deeper with the AWS services. >> Yeah, it's almost as if Amazon over the past two years in particular has been really tightly integrating as a strategy to enable their partners like you guys >> Mm-hmm. >> to be successful. Not trying to land grab. Is that true? Do you get that vibe? >> I definitely get that vibe, right. Yesterday, we spent all day in a partnership meeting where they were, you know talking about rolling out new services. I mean, they, they are in it to win it with their ecosystem. Not on, not just themselves. >> All right, Denise it's great to have you on theCUBE here as part of re:Inforce. I'll give you the last minute or so to give a plug for the company. You guys hiring? What are you guys looking for? Potential customers that are watching? Why should they buy you? Why are you winning? Give a, give the pitch. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, so yes we are hiring. We're always hiring. I think, right, in this startup world. We're growing and we're looking for talent, probably in every area right now. I know I'm looking for talent on the sales side. And, and again, the, I think the important thing about us is the, the fullness of our solution but the superpower that we have, like I said before around the identity and the data pieces and this is becoming more and more the reality for customers that they're understanding that that is the most important thing to do. And I mean, if they're that, Gartner says it, Forrester says it, like we are one of the, one of the best choices for that. >> Yeah. And you guys have been doing good. We've been following you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> And congratulations on your success. And we'll see you at the AWS Startup Showcase in late August. Check out Sonrai Systems at AWS Startup Showcase late August. Here at theCUBE live in Boston getting all the coverage. From the keynotes, to the experts, to the ecosystem, here on theCUBE, I'm John Furrier your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

(gentle upbeat music) >> People hate to be sold, but they love to buy. We become what we think about, think, and grow rich. If you want to gather honey, don't kick over the beehive. The world is replete with time-tested advice and motivational ideas for aspiring salespeople, Dale Carnegie, Napoleon Hill, Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, and many others have all published classics with guidance that when followed closely, almost always leads to success. More modern personalities have emerged in the internet era, like Tony Robbins, and Gary Vaynerchuk, and Angela Duckworth. But for the most part, they've continued to rely on book publishing, seminars, and high value consulting to peddle their insights and inspire action. Welcome to this video exclusive on theCUBE. This is Dave Vellante, and I'm pleased to welcome back Professor Mark Roberge, who is one of the Managing Directors at Stage 2 Capital, and Paul Fifield, who's the CEO and Co-Founder of Sales Impact Academy. Gentlemen, welcome. Great to see you. >> You too Dave and thanks. >> All right, let's get right into it. Paul, you guys are announcing today a $4 million financing round. It comprises $3 million in a seed round led by Stage 2 and a million dollar in debt financing. So, first of all, congratulations. Paul, why did you start Sales Impact Academy? >> Cool, well, I think my background is sort of two times CRO, so I've built two reasonably successful companies. Built a hundred plus person teams. And so I've got kind of this firsthand experience of having to learn literally everything on the job whilst delivering these very kind of rapid, like achieving these very rapid growth targets. And so when I came out of those two journeys, I literally just started doing some voluntary teaching in and around London where I now live. I spend a bunch of time over in New York, and literally started this because I wanted to sort of kind of give back, but just really wanted to start helping people who were just really, really struggling in high pressure environments. And that's both leadership from sense of revenue leadership people, right down to sort of frontline SDRs. And I think as I started just doing this voluntary teaching, I kind of realized that actually the sort of global education system has done is a massive, massive disservice, right? I actually call it the greatest educational travesty of the last 50 years, where higher education has entirely overlooked sales as a profession. And the knock-on consequences of that have been absolutely disastrous for our profession. Partly that the profession is seen as a bit sort of embarrassing to be a part of. You kind of like go get a sales job if you can't get a degree. But more than that, the core fundamental within revenue teams and within sales people is now completely lacking 'cause there's no structured formal kind of like learning out there. So that's really the problem we're trying to solve on the kind of like the skill side. >> Great. Okay. And mark, always good to have you on, and I got to ask you. So even though, I know this is the wheelhouse for you and your partners, and of course, you've got a deep bench of LPs, but lay out the investment thesis here. What's the core problem that you saw and how are you looking at the market? >> Yeah, sure, Dave. So this one was a special one for me. We've spoken in the past. I mean, just personally I've always had a similar passion to Paul that it's amazing how important sales execution is to all companies, nevermind just the startup ecosystem. And I've always personally been motivated by anything that can help the startup ecosystem increase their success. Part of why I teach at Harvard and try to change some of the stuff that Paul's talking about, which is like, it's amazing how little education is done around sales. But in this particular one, not only personally was I excited about, but from a fun perspective, we've got to look at the economic outcomes. And we've been thinking a lot about the sales tech stack. It's evolved a ton in the last couple of decades. We've gone from the late '90s where every sales VP was just, they had a thing called the CRM that none of their reps even used, right? And we've come so far in 20 years, we've got all these amazing tools that help us cold call, that help us send emails efficiently and automatically and track everything, but nothing's really happened on the education side. And that's really the enormous gap that we've seen is, these organizations being much more proactive around adopting technology that can prove sales execution, but nothing on the education side. And the other piece that we saw is, it's almost like all these companies are reinventing the wheel of looking in the upcoming year, having a dozen sales people to hire, and trying to put together a sales enablement program within their organization to teach salespeople sales 101. Like how to find a champion, how to develop a budget, how to develop sense of urgency. And what Paul and team can do in the first phase of essay, is can sort of centralize that, so that all of these organizations can benefit from the best content and the best instructors for their team. >> So Paul, exactly, thank you, mark. Exactly what do you guys do? What do you sell? I'm curious, is this sort of, I'm thinking in my head, is this E-learning, is it really part of the sales stack? Maybe you could help us understand that better. >> Well, I think this problem of having to upscale teams has been around like forever. And kind of going back to the kind of education problem, it's what's wild is that we would never accept this of our lawyers, our accountants, or HR professionals. Imagine like someone in your finance team arriving on day one and they're searching YouTube to try and work out how to like put a balance sheet together. So it's a chronic, chronic problem. And so the way that we're addressing this, and I think the problem is well understood, but there's always been a terrible market, sort of product market fit for how the problem gets solved. So as mark was saying, typically it's in-house revenue leaders who themselves have got massive gaps in their knowledge, hack together some internal learning that is just pretty poor, 'cause it's not really their skillset. The other alternative is bringing in really expensive consultants, but they're consultants with a very single worldview and the complexity of a modern revenue organization is very, very high these days. And so one consultant is not going to really kind of like cover every topic you need. And then there's the kind of like fairly old fashioned sales training companies that just come in, one big hit, super expensive and then sort of leave again. So the sort of product market fit to solve, has always been a bit pretty bad. So what we've done is we've created a subscription model. We've essentially productized skills development. The way that we've done that is we teach live instruction. So one of the big challenges Andreessen Horowitz put a post out around this so quite recently, one of the big problems of online learning is that this kind of huge repository of online learning, which puts all the onus on the learner to have the discipline to go through these courses and consume them in an on-demand way is actually they're pretty ineffective. We see sort of completion rates of like 7 to 8%. So we've always gone from a live instruction model. So the sort of ingredients are the absolute very best people in the world in their very specific skill teaching live classes just two hours per week. So we're not overwhelming the learners who are already in work, and they have targets, and they've got a lot of pressure. And we have courses that last maybe four to like 12 hours over two to sort of six to seven weeks. So highly practical live instruction. We have 70, 80, sometimes even 90% completion rates of the sort of live class experience, and then teams then rapidly put that best practice into practice and see amazing results in things like top of funnel, or conversion, or retention. >> So live is compulsory and I presume on-demand? If you want to refresh you have an on demand option? >> Yeah, everything's recorded, so you can kind of catch up on a class if you've missed it, But that live instruction is powerful because it's kind of in your calendar, right? So you show up. But the really powerful thing, actually, is that entire teams within companies can actually learn at exactly the same pace. So we teach it eight o'clock Pacific, 11 o'clock Eastern, >> 4: 00 PM in the UK, and 5:00 PM Europe. So your entire European and North American teams can literally learn in the same class with a world-class expert, like a Mark, or like a Kevin Dorsey, or like Greg Holmes from Zoom. And you're learning from these incredible people. Class finishes, teams can come back together, talk about this incredible best practice they've just learned, and then immediately put it into practice. And that's where we're seeing these incredible, kind of almost instant impact on performance at real scale. >> So, Mark, in thinking about your investment, you must've been thinking about, okay, how do we scale this thing? You've got an instructor component, you've got this live piece. How are you thinking about that at scale? >> Yeah, there's a lot of different business model options there. And I actually think multiple of them are achievable in the longer term. That's something we've been working with Paul quite a bit, is like, they're all quite compelling. So just trying to think about which two to start with. But I think you've seen a lot of this in education models today. Is a mixture of on-demand with prerecorded. And so I think that will be the starting point. And I think from a scalability standpoint, we were also, we don't always try to do this with our investments, but clearly our LP base or limited partner base was going to be a key ingredient to at least the first cycle of this business. You know, our VC firm's backed by over 250 CRO CMOs heads of customer success, all of which are prospective instructors, prospective content developers, and prospective customers. So that was a little nicety around the scale and investment thesis for this one. >> And what's in it for them? I mean, they get paid. Obviously, you have a stake in the game, but what's in it for the instructors. They get paid on a sort of a per course basis? How does that model work? >> Yeah, we have a development fee for each kind of hour of teaching that gets created So we've mapped out a pretty significant curriculum. And we have about 250 hours of life teaching now already written. We actually think it's going to be about 3000 hours of learning before you get even close to a complete curriculum for every aspect of a revenue organization from revenue operations, to customer success, to marketing, to sales, to leadership, and management. But we have a development fee per class, and we have a teaching fee as well. >> Yeah, so, I mean, I think you guys, it's really an underserved market, and then when you think about it, most organizations, they just don't invest in training. And so, I mean, I would think you'd want to take it, I don't know what the right number is, 5, 10% of your sales budget and actually put it on this and the return would be enormous. How do you guys think about the market size? Like I said before, is it E-learning, is it part of the CRM stack? How do you size this market? >> Well, I think for us it's service to people. A highly skilled sales rep with an email address, a phone and a spreadsheet would do really well, okay? You don't need this world-class tech stack to do well in sales. You need the skills to be able to do the job. But the reverse, that's not true, right? An unskilled person with a world-class tech stack won't do well. And so fundamentally, the skill level of your team is the number one most important thing to get right to be successful in revenue. But as I said before, the product market for it to solve that problem, has been pretty terrible. So we see ourselves 100%. And so if you're looking at like a com, you look at Gong, who we've just signed as a customer, which is fantastic. Gong has a technology that helps salespeople do better through call recording. You have Outreach, who is also a customer. They have technologies that help SDRs be more efficient in outreach. And now you have Sales Impact Academy, and we help with skills development of your team, of the entirety of your revenue function. So we absolutely see ourselves as a key part of that stack. In terms of the TAM, 60 million people in sales are on, according to LinkedIn. You're probably talking 150 million people in go to market to include all of the different roles. 50% of the world's companies are B2B. The TAM is huge. But what blows my mind, and this kind of goes back to this why the global education system has overlooked this because essentially if half the world's companies are B2B, that's probably a proxy for the half of the world's GDP, Half of the world's economic growth is relying on the revenue function of half the world's companies, and they don't really know what they're doing, (laughs) which is absolutely staggering. And if we can solve that in a meaningfully meaningful way at massive scale, then the impact should be absolutely enormous. >> So, Mark, no lack of TAM. I know that you guys at Stage 2, you're also very much focused on the metrics. You have a fundamental philosophy that your product market fit and retention should come before hyper growth. So what were the metrics that enticed you to make this investment? >> Yeah, it's a good question, Dave, 'cause that's where we always look first, which I think is a little different than most early stage investors. There's a big, I guess, meme, triple, triple, double, double that's popular in Silicon Valley these days, which refers to triple your revenue in year one, triple your revenue in year two, double in year three, and four, and five. And that type of a hyper growth is critical, but it's often jumped too quickly in our opinion. That there's a premature victory called on product market fit, which kills a larger percentage of businesses than is necessary. And so with all our investments, we look very heavily first at user engagement, any early indicators of user retention. And the numbers were just off the charts for SIA in terms of the customers, in terms of the NPS scores that they were getting on their sessions, in terms of the completion rate on their courses, in terms of the customers that started with a couple of seats and expanded to more seats once they got a taste of the program. So that's where we look first as a strong foundation to build a scalable business, and it was off the charts positive for SIA. >> So how about the competition? If I Google sales training software, I'll get like dozens of companies. Lessonly, and MindTickle, or Brainshark will come up, that's not really a fit. So how do you think about the competition? How are you different? >> Yeah, well, one thing we try and avoid is any reference to sales training, 'cause that really sort of speaks to this very old kind of fashioned way of doing this. And I actually think that from a pure pedagogy perspective, so from a pure learning design perspective, the old fashioned way of doing sales training was pull a whole team off site, usually in a really terrible hotel with no windows for a day or two. And that's it, that's your learning experience. And that's not how human beings learn, right? So just even if the content was fantastic, the learning experience was so terrible, it was just very kind of ineffective. So we sort of avoid kind of like sales training, The likes of MindTickle, we're actually talking to them at the moment about a partnership there. They're a platform play, and we're certainly building a platform, but we're very much about the live instruction and creating the biggest curriculum and the broadest curriculum on the internet, in the world, basically, for revenue teams. So the competition is kind of interesting 'cause there is not really a direct subscription-based live like learning offering out there. There's some similar ish companies. I honestly think at the moment it's kind of status quo. We're genuinely creating a new category of in-work learning for revenue teams. And so we're in this kind of semi and sort of evangelical sort of phase. So really, status quo is one of the biggest sort of competitors. But if you think about some of those old, old fashioned sort of Miller Heimans, and then perhaps even like Sandlers, there's an analogy perhaps here, which is kind of interesting, which is a little bit like Siebel and Salesforce in the sort of late '90s, where in Siebel you have this kind of old way of doing things. It was a little bit ineffective. It was really expensive. Not accessible to a huge space of the market. And Salesforce came along and said, "Hey, we're going to create this cool thing. It's going to be through the browser, it's going to be accessible to everyone, and it's going to be really, really effective." And so there's some really kind of interesting parallels almost between like Siebel and Salesforce and what we're doing to completely kind of upend the sort of the old fashioned way of delivering sort of sales training, if you like. >> And your target customer profile is, you're selling to teams, right? B2B teams, right? It's not for individuals. Is that correct, Paul? >> Currently. Yeah, yeah. So currently we've got a big foothold in series A to series B. So broadly speaking out, our target market currently is really fast growth technology companies. That's the sector that we're really focusing on. We've got a very good strong foothold in series A series B companies. We've now won some much larger later stage companies. We've actually even won a couple of corporates, I can't say names yet, but names that are very, very, very familiar and we're incredibly excited by them, which could end up being thousand plus seat deals 'cause we do this on a per seat basis. But yeah, very much at the moment it's fast growth tech companies, and we're sort of moving up the chain towards enterprise. >> And how do you deal with the sort of maturity curve, if you will, of your students? You've got some that are brand new, just fresh out of school. You've got others that are more seasoned. What do you do, pop them into different points of the curriculum? How do you handle it? >> Yeah we have, I'll say we have about 30 courses right now. We have about another 15 in development where post this fundraise, we want to be able to get to around about 20 courses that we're developing every quarter and getting out to market. So we're literally, we've sort of identified about 20 to 25 key roles across everything within revenue. That's, let's say revenue ops, customer success, account management, sales, engineering, all these different kinds of roles. And we are literally plotting the sort of skills development for these individuals over multiple, multiple years. And I think what we've never ceases to amaze me is actually the breadth of learning in revenue is absolutely enormous. And what kind of just makes you laugh is, this is all of this knowledge that we're now creating it's what companies just hope that their teams somehow acquire through osmosis, through blogs, through events. And it's just kind of crazy that there is... It's absolutely insane that we don't already exist, basically. >> And if I understand it correctly, just from looking at your website, you've got the entry level package. I think it's up to 15 seats, and then you scale up from there, correct? Is it sort of as a seat-based license model? >> Yeah, it's a seat-based model, as Mark mentioned. In some cases we sell, let's say 20 or $30,000 deal out the gate and that's most of the team. That will be maybe a series A, series B deal, but then we've got these land and expand models that are working tremendously well. We have seven, eight customers in Q1 that have doubled their spend Q2. That's the impact that they're seeing. And our net revenue retention number for Q2 is looking like it's going to be 177% to think exceeds companies like Snowflakes. Well, our underlying retention metrics, because people are seeing this incredible impact on teams and performance, is really, really strong. >> That's a nice metric compare with Snowflake (Paul laughs) It's all right. (Dave and Paul laugh) >> So, Mark, this is a larger investment for Stage 2 You guys have been growing and sort of upping your game. And maybe talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, we're in the middle of Fund II right now. So, Fund I was in 2018. We were doing smaller checks. It was our first time out of the gate. The mission has really taken of, our LP base has really taken off. And so this deal looks a lot like more like our second fund. We'll actually make an announcement in a few weeks now that we've closed that out. But it's a much larger fund and our first investments should be in that 2 to $3 million range. >> Hey, Paul, what are you going to do with the money? What are the use of funds? >> Put it on black, (chuckles) we're going to like- (Dave laughs) >> Saratoga is open. (laughs) (Mark laughs) >> We're going to, look, the curriculum development for us is absolutely everything, but we're also going to be investing in building our own technology platform as well. And there are some other really important aspects to the kind of overall offering. We're looking at building an assessment tool so we can actually kind of like start to assess skills across teams. We certify every course has an exam, so we want to get more robust around the certification as well, because we're hoping that our certification becomes the global standard in understanding for the first time in the industry what individual competencies and skills people have, which will be huge. So we have a broad range of things that we want to start initiating now. But I just wanted to quickly say Stage 2 has been nothing short of incredible in every kind of which way. Of course, this investment, the fit is kind of insane, but the LPs have been extraordinary in helping. We've got a huge number of them are now customers very quickly. Mark and the team are helping enormously on our own kind of like go to market and metrics. I've been doing this for 20 years. I've raised over 100 million myself in venture capital. I've never known a venture capital firm with such value add like ever, or even heard of other people getting the kind of value add that we're getting. So I just wanted to a quick shout out for Stage 2. >> Quite a testimony of you guys. Definitely Stage 2 punches above its weight. Guys, we'll leave it there. Thanks so much for coming on. Good luck and we'll be watching. Appreciate your time. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, thank you everybody for watching this Cube conversation. This is Dave Vellante, and we'll see you next time.

>> Well, thank you, Gary. Well, you know, reasonable people could debate when the so-called big data era started. But for me it was in the fall of 2010 when I was sleepwalking through this conference in Dallas. And the conference was focused on data being a liability. And the whole conversation was about, how do you mitigate the risks of things like work in process and smoking-gun emails. I got a call from my business partner, John Fard, he said to me, "get to New York and come and see the future of data. We're doing theCUBE at Hadoop World tomorrow." I subsequently I canceled about a dozen meetings that I had scheduled for the week. And with only one exception, every one of the folks I was scheduled to meet said, "what's a Hadoop?" Well, I flew through an ice storm across country. I got to the New York Hilton around 3:00 AM, and I met John in the Dark Bar. If any of you remember that little facility. And I caught a little shut eye. And then the next day I met some of the most interesting people in tech during that time. They were thinking a lot differently than we were used to. They looked at data through a prism of value. And they were finding new ways to do things like deal with fraud, they were building out social networks, they were finding novel marketing vectors and identifying new investment strategies. The other thing they were doing is, they were taking these little tiny bits of code and bring it to really large sets of data. And they were doing things that I hadn't really heard of like no schema-on-write. And they were transforming their organizations by looking at data not as a liability, but as a monetization opportunity. And that opened my eyes and theCUBE, like a lot of others bet its business on data. Now over the past decade, customers have built up infrastructure and have been accommodating a lot of different use cases. Things like offloading ETL, data protection, mining data, analyzing data, visualizing. And as you know, you no doubt realize this was at a time when the cloud was, you know, really kind of nascent. And it was really about startups and experimentation. But today, we've evolved from the wild west of 2010, and many of these customers they're leveraging the cloud for of course, ease of use and flexibility it brings, but also they're finding out it brings complexity and risk. I want to tell you a quick story. Recently it was interviewing a CIO in theCUBE and he said to me, "if you just shove all your workloads into the cloud, you might get some benefit, but you're also going to miss the forest to the trees. You have to change your operating model and expand your mind as to what is cloud and create a cloud light experience that spans your on premises, workloads, multiple public clouds, and even the edge. And you have to re-imagine your business and the possibilities that this new architecture this new platform can bring." So we're going to talk about some of this today in a little bit more detail and specifically how we can better navigate the data storm. And what's the role of hybrid cloud. I'm really excited to have two great guests. Manish Dasaur is the managing director in the North America lead for analytics and artificial intelligence at Accenture. Anupam Singh is the chief customer officer for Cloudera. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Hi Dave good to see you again. >> All right, guys, Anupam and Manish, you heard my little monologue upfront Anupam we'll start with you. What would you? Anything you'd add, amend, emphasize? You know, share a quick story. >> Yeah, Dave thank you for that introduction. It takes me back to the days when I was an article employee and went to this 14 people meet up. Just a couple of pizza talking about this thing called Hadoop. And I'm just amazed to see that today we are now at 2000 customers, who are using petabytes of data to make extremely critical decisions. Reminds me of the fact that this week, a lot of our customers are busy thinking about elections and what effect it would have on their data pipeline. Will it be more data? Will it be more stressful? So, totally agree with you. And also agree that cloud, is almost still in early days in times of the culture of IT on how to use the cloud. And I'm sure we'll talk about that today in greater detail. >> Yeah most definitely Manish I wonder if we could get your perspective on this. I mean, back when Anupam was at Oracle you'd shove a bunch of, you know, data, maybe you could attach a big honking disc drive, you'd buy some Oracle licenses, you know, it was a Unix box. Everything went into this, you know, this God box and then things changed quite dramatically, which was awesome, but also complex. And you guys have been there from the beginning. What's your perspective on all this? >> Yeah, it's been fascinating just to watch the market and the technology evolve. And I think the urgency to innovate is really just getting started. We're seeing companies drive growth from 20% in cloud today, to 80% cloud in the next few years. And I think the emergence of capabilities like hybrid cloud, we really get upfront a lot of flexibility for companies who need the ability to keep some data in a private setting, but be able to share the rest of the data in a public setting. I think we're just starting to scratch the surface of it. >> So let's talk a little bit about what is a hybrid cloud Anupam I wonder if you could take this one let's start with you and then Manish we come back to you and to get the customer perspective as well. I mean, it is a lot of things to a lot of people, but what is it? Why do we need it? And you know, what's the value? >> Yeah, I could speak poetic about Kubernetes and containers et cetera. But given that, you know, we talk to customers a lot, all three of us from the customer's perspective, hybrid cloud is a lot about collaboration and ease of procurement. A lot of our customers, whether they're in healthcare, banking or telco, are being asked to make the data available to regulatory authority, to subsidiaries outside of their geography. When you need that data to be available in other settings, taking a from on-prem and making it available in public cloud, enables extreme collaboration, extreme shared data experience if you will, inside the company. So we think about hybrid like that. >> Manish anything you'd add? How are your customers thinking about it? >> I mean, in a very simple way, it's a structure that where we are allowing mixed computing storage and service environments that's made of on-prem structures, private cloud structures, and public cloud structures. We're often calling it multicloud or mixcloud. And I think the really big advantage is, this model of cloud computing is enabling our clients to gain the benefits of public cloud setting, while maintaining your own private cloud for sensitive and mission critical and highly regulated computing services. That's also allowing our clients and organizations to leverage the pay-as-you-go model, which is really quite impressive and attractive to them because then they can scale their investments accordingly. Clients can combine one or more public cloud providers together in a private cloud, multicloud platform. The cloud can operate independently of each other, communicate over an encrypted connection. This dynamic solution offers a lot of flexibility and scalability which I think is really important to our clients. >> So Manish I wonder if we would stay there. How do they, how do your customers decide? How do you help them decide, you know, what the right mix is? What the equilibrium is? How much should it be in on-prem? How much should be in public or across clouds? Or, you know, eventually, well the edge will I guess decide for us. But, how do you go through, what are the decision points there? >> Yeah, I think that's a great question Dave. I would say there's several factors to consider when developing a cloud strategy that's the right strategy for you. Some of the factors that come to my mind when contemplating it, one would be security. Are there data sets that are highly sensitive that you don't want leaving the premise, versus data sets that need to be in a more shareable solution. Another factor I'd consider is speed and flexibility. Is there a need to stand up and stand down capabilities based on the seasonality of the business or some short-term demands? Is there a need to add and remove scale from the infrastructure and that quick pivot and that quick reaction is another factor they should consider. The third one I'd probably put out there is cost. Large data sets and large computing capacities often much more scalable and cost effective than a cloud infrastructure so there's lots of advantages to think through there. And maybe lastly I'd share is the native services. A lot of the cloud providers enable a set of native services for ingestion, for processing, of modeling, for machine learning, that organizations can really take advantage of. I would say if you're contemplating your strategy right now, my coaching would be, get help. It's a team sport. So definitely leverage your partners and think through the pros and cons of the strategy. Establish a primary hyperscaler, I think that's going to be super key and maximize your value through optimizing the workload, the data placement and really scaling the running operations. And lastly, maybe Dave move quickly right? Each day that you wait, you're incurring technical debt in your legacy environment, that's going to increase the cost and barrier to entry when moving to the new cloud hybrid driver. >> Thank you for that. Anupam I wonder if we could talk a little bit about the business impact. I mean, in the early days of big data, yes, it was a heavy lift, but it was really transformative. When you go to hybrid cloud, is it really about governance and compliance and security and getting the right mix in terms of latency? Are there other, you know, business impacts that are potentially as transformative as we saw in the early days? What are your thoughts on that? >> Absolutely. It's the other business impacts that are interesting. And you know, Dave, let's say you're in the line of business and I come to you and say, oh, there's cost, there's all these other security governance benefits. It doesn't ring the bell for you. But if I say, Dave used to wait 32 weeks, 32 weeks to procure hardware and install software, but I can give you the same thing in 30 minutes. It's literally that transformative, right? Even on-prem, if I use cloud native technology, I can give something today within days versus weeks. So we have banks, we have a bank in Ohio that would take 32 weeks to rack up a 42 node server. Yes, it's very powerful, you have 42 nodes on it, 42 things stacked on it, but still it's taking too much time. So when you get cloud native technologies in your data center, you start behaving like the cloud and you're responsive to the business. The responsiveness is very important. >> That's a great point. I mean, in fact, you know, there's always this debate about is the cloud public cloud probably cost more expensive? Is it more expensive to rent than it is to own? And you get debates back and forth based on your perspective. But I think at the end of the day, what, Anupam you just talked about, it may oftentimes could dwarf, you know, any cost factors, if you can actually, you know, move that fast. Now cost is always a consideration. But I want to talk about the migration path if we can Manish. Where do, how should customers think about migrating to the cloud migration's a, an evil word. How should they think about migrating to the cloud? What's the strategy there? Where should they start? >> No I think you should start with kind of a use case in mind. I think you should start with a particular data set in mind as well. I think starting with what you're really seeking to achieve from a business value perspective is always the right lens in my mind. This is the decade of time technology and cloud to the fitness value, right? So if you start with, I'm seeking to make a dramatic upsell or dramatic change to my top line or bottom line, start with the use case in mind and migrate the data sets and elements that are relevant to that use case, relevant to that value, relevant to that unlock that you're trying to create, that I think is the way to prioritize it. Most of our clients are going to have tons and tons of data in their legacy environment. I don't think the right way to start is to start with a strategy that's going to be focused on migrating all of that. I think the strategy is start with the prioritized items that are tied to the specific value or the use case you're seeking to drive and focus your transformation and your migration on that. >> So guys I've been around a long time in this business and been an observer for awhile. And back in the mainframe days, we used to have a joke called CTAM. When we talk about moving data, it was called the Chevy truck access method. So I want to ask you Anupam, how do you move the data? Do you, it's like an Einstein saying, right? Move as much data as you need to, but no more. So what's going on in that front? what's happening with data movement, and, you know, do you have to make changes to the applications when you move data to the cloud? >> So there's two design patterns, but I love your service story because you know, when you have a 30 petabyte system and you tell the customer, hey, just make a copy of the data and everything will be fine. That will take you one and a half years to make the copies aligned with each other. Instead, what we are seeing is the biggest magic is workload analysis. You analyze the workload, you analyze the behavior of the users, and say so let's say Dave runs dashboards that are very complicated and Manish waits for compute when Dave is running his dashboard. If you're able to gather that information, you can actually take some of the noise out of the system. So you take selected sets of hot data, and you move it to public cloud, process it in public cloud maybe even bring it back. Sounds like science fiction, but the good news is you don't need a Chevy to take all that data into public cloud. It's a small amount of data. That's one reason the other pattern that we have seen is, let's say Manish needs something as a data scientist. And he needs some really specific type of GPUs that are only available in the cloud. So you pull the data sets out that Manish needs so that he can get the new silicone, the new library in the cloud. Those are the two patterns that if you have a new type of compute requirement, you go to public cloud, or if you have a really noisy tenant, you take the hot data out into public cloud and process it there. Does that make sense? >> Yeah it does and it sort of sets up this notion I was sort of describing upfront that the cloud is not just, you know, the public cloud, it's the spans on-prem and multicloud and even the edge. And it seems to me that you've got a metadata opportunity I'll call it and a challenge as well. I mean, there's got to be a lot of R and D going on right now. You hear people talking about cloud native and I wonder on Anupam if you could stay on that, I mean, what's your sense as to how, what the journey is going to look like? I mean, we're not going to get there overnight. People have laid out a vision of this sort of expanding cloud and I'm saying it's a metadata opportunity, but I, you know, how do you, the system has to know what workload to put where based on a lot of those factors that you guys were talking about. The governance, the laws of the land, the latency issues, the cost issues is, you know, how is the industry Anupam sort of approaching this problem and solving this problem? >> I think the biggest thing is to reflect all your security governance across every cloud, as well as on-prem. So let's say, you know, a particular user named Manish cannot access financial data, revenue data. It's important that that data as it goes around the cloud, if it gets copied from on-prem to the cloud, it should carry that quality with it. A big danger is you copy it into some optic storage, and you're absolutely right Dave metadata is the goal there. If you copy the data into an object storage and you lose all metadata, you lose all security, you lose all authorization. So we have invested heavily in something called shared data experience. Which reflects policies from on-prem all the way to the cloud and back. We've seen customers needing to invest in that, but some customers went all hog on the cloud and they realize that putting data just in these buckets of optic storage, you lose all the metadata, and then you're exposing yourself to some breach and security issues. >> Manish I wonder if we could talk about, thank you for that Anupam. Manish I wonder if we could talk about, you know, I've imagined a project, okay? Wherever I am in my journey, maybe you can pick your sort of sweet spot in the market today. You know, what's the fat middle if you will. What does a project look like when I'm migrating to the cloud? I mean, what are some of the, who are the stakeholders? What are some of the outer scope maybe expectations that I better be thinking about? What kind of timeframe? How should I tackle this and so it's not like a, you know, a big, giant expensive? Can I take it in pieces? What's the state-of-the-art of a project look like today? >> Yeah, lots of thoughts come to mind, Dave, when you ask that question. So there's lots to pack. As far as who the buyer is or what the project is for, this is out of migration is directly relevant to every officer in the C-suite in my mind. It's very relevant for the CIO and CTO obviously it's going to be their infrastructure of the future, and certainly something that they're going to need to migrate to. It's very important for the CFO as well. These things require a significant migration and a significant investment from enterprises, different kind of position there. And it's very relevant all the way up to the CEO. Because if you get it right, the truly the power it unlocks is illuminates parts of your business that allow you to capture more value, capture a higher share of wallet, allows you to pivot. A lot of our clients right now are making a pivot from going from a products organization to an as a service organization and really using the capabilities of the cloud to make that pivot happen. So it's really relevant kind of across the C-suite. As far as what a typical program looks like, I always coach my clients just like I said, to start with the value case in mind. So typically, what I'll ask them to do is kind of prioritize their top three or five use cases that they really want to drive, and then we'll land a project team that will help them make that migration and really scale out data and analytics on the cloud that are focused on those use cases. >> Great, thank you for that. I'm glad you mentioned the shift in the mindset from product to as a service. We're seeing that across the board now, even infrastructure players are jumping on the bandwagon and borrowing some sort of best practices from the SaaS vendors. And I wanted to ask you guys about, I mean, as you move to the cloud, one of the other things that strikes me is that you actually get greater scale, but there's a broader ecosystem as well. So we're kind of moving from a product centric world and with SaaS we've got this sort of platform centric, and now it seems like ecosystems are really where the innovation is coming from. I wonder if you guys could comment on that, maybe Anupam you could start. >> Yeah, many of our customers as I said right? Are all about sharing data with more and more lines of businesses. So whenever we talk to our CXO partners, our CRO partners, they are being asked to open up the big data system to more tenants. The fear is, of course, if you add more tenants to a system, it could get, you know, the operational actually might get violated. So I think that's a very important part as more and more collaboration across the company, more and more collaboration across industries. So we have customers who create sandboxes. These are healthcare customers who create sandbox environments for other pharma companies to come in and look at clinical trial data. In that case, you need to be able to create these fenced environments that can be run in public cloud, but with the same security that you expect up. >> Yeah thank you. So Manish this is your wheelhouse as Accenture. You guys are one of the top, you know, two or three or four organizations in the world in terms of dealing with complexity, you've got deep industry expertise, and it seems like some of these ecosystems as Anupam was just sort of describing it in a form are around industries, whether it's healthcare, government, financial services and the like. Maybe your thoughts on the power of ecosystems versus the, you know, the power of many versus the resources of one. >> Yeah, listen, I always talk about this is a team sport right? And it's not about doing it alone. It's about developing as ecosystem partners and really leveraging the power of that collective group. And I've been for as my clients to start thinking about, you know, the key thing you want to think about is how you migrate to becoming a data driven enterprise. And in order for you to get there, you're going to need ecosystem partners to go along the journey with you, to help you drive that innovation. You're going to need to adopt a pervasive mindset to data and democratization of that data everywhere in your enterprise. And you're going to need to refocus your decision-making based on that data, right? So I think partner ecosystem partnerships are here to stay. I think what we're going to see Dave is, you know, at the beginning of the maturity cycle, you're going to see the ecosystem expand with lots of different players and technologies kind of focused on industry. And then I think you'll get to a point where it starts to mature and starts to consolidate as ecosystem partners start to join together through acquisitions and mergers and things like that. So I think ecosystem is just starting to change. I think the key message that I would give to our clients is take advantage of that. There's too much complexity for any one person to kind of navigate through on your own. It's a team sport, so take advantage of all the partnerships you can create. >> Well, Manish one of the things you just said that it kind of reminds me, you said data data-driven, you know, organizations and, you know, if you look at the pre-COVID narrative around digital transformation, certainly there was a lot of digital transformation going on, but there was a lot of complacency too. I talked to a lot of folks, companies that say, "you know, we're doing pretty well, our banks kicking butt right now, we're making a ton of money." Or you know, all that stuff that's kind of not on my watch. I'll be retired before then. And then it was the old, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." And then COVID breaks everything. And now if you're not digital, you're out of business. And so Anupam I'll start with you. I mean, to build a data-driven culture, what does that mean? That means putting data at the center of your organization, as opposed to around in stove pipes. And this, again, we talked about this, it sort of started in there before even the early parts of last decade. And so it seems that there's cultural aspects there's obviously technology, but there's skillsets, there's processes, you've got a data lifecycle and a data, what I sometimes call a data pipeline, meaning an end to end cycle. And organizations are having to rethink really putting data at the core. What are you seeing? And specifically as it relates to this notion of data-driven organization and data culture, what's working? >> Yeah three favorite stories, and you're a 100% right. Digital transformation has been hyperaccelerated with COVID right? So our telco customers for example, you know, Manish had some technical problems with bandwidth just 10 minutes ago. Most likely is going to call his ISP. The ISP will most likely load up a dashboard in his zip code and the reason it gives me stress, this entire story is because most likely it's starting on a big data system that has to collect data every 15 minutes, and make it available. Because you'll have a very angry Manish on the other end, if you can't explain when is the internet coming back, right? So, as you said this is accelerated. Our telco providers, our telco customers ability to ingest data, because they have to get it in 15 minute increments, not in 24 hour increments. So that's one. On the banking sector what we have seen is uncertainty has created more needs for data. So next week is going to be very uncertain all of us know elections are upcoming. We have customers who are preparing for that additional variable capacity, elastic capacity, so that if investment bankers start running hundreds and thousands of reports, they better be ready. So it's changing the culture at a very fundamental level, right? And my last story is healthcare. You're running clinical trials, but everybody wants access to the data. Your partners, the government wants access to the data, manufacturers wants access to the data. So again, you have to actualize digital transformation on how do you share very sensitive, private healthcare data without violating any policy. But you have to do it quick. That's what COVID has started. >> Thank you for that. So I want to come back to hybrid cloud. I know a lot of people in the audience are, want to learn more about that. And they have a mandate really to go to cloud generally but hybrid specifically. So Manish I wonder if you could share with us, maybe there's some challenges, I mean what's the dark side of hybrid. What should people be thinking about that they, you know, they don't want to venture into, you know, this way, they want to go that way. What are some of the challenges that you're seeing with customers? And how are they mitigating them? >> Yeah, Dave it's a great question. I think there's a few items that I would coach my clients to prioritize and really get right when thinking about making the migration happen. First of all, I would say integration. Between your private and public components that can be complex, it can be challenging. It can be complicated based on the data itself, the organizational structure of the company, the number of touches and authors we have on that data and several other factors. So I think it's really important to get this integration right, with some clear accountabilities build automation where you can and really establish some consistent governance that allows you to maintain these assets. The second one I would say is security. When it comes to hybrid cloud management, any transfers of data you need to handle the strict policies and procedures, especially in industries where that's really relevant like healthcare and financial services. So using these policies in a way that's consistent across your environment and really well understood with anyone who's touching your environment is really important. And the third I would say is cost management. All the executives that I talk about have to have a cost management angle to it. Cloud migration provides ample opportunities for cost reduction. However many migration projects can go over budget when all the costs aren't factored in, right? So your cloud vendors. You've got to be mindful of kind of the charges on accessing on premise applications and scaling costs that maybe need to be budgeted for and where if possible anticipated and really plan for. >> Excellent. So Anupam I wonder if we could go a little deeper on, we talked a little bit about this, but kind of what you put where, which workloads. What are you seeing? I mean, how are people making the choice? Are they saying, okay, this cloud is good for analytics. This cloud is good. Well, I'm a customer of their software so I'm going to use this cloud or this one is the best infrastructure and they got, you know, the most features. How are people deciding really what to put where? Or is it, "hey, I don't want to be locked in to one cloud. I want to spread my risk around. What are you seeing specifically? >> I think the biggest thing is just to echo what Manish said. Is business comes in and as a complaint. So most projects that we see on digital transformation and on public cloud adoption is because businesses complaining about something. It's not architectural goodness, it is not for just innovation for innovation's sake. So, the biggest thing that we see is what we call noisy neighbors. A lot of dashboards, you know, because business has become so intense, click, click, click, click, you're actually putting a lot of load on the system. So isolating noisy neighbors into a cloud is one of the biggest patterns that you've seen. It takes the noisiest tenant on your cluster, noisiest workload and you take them to public cloud. The other one is data scientists. They want new libraries, they want to work with GPU's. And to your point Dave, that's where you select a particular cloud. Let's say there's a particular type silicone that is available only in that cloud. That GPU is available only in that cloud or that particular artificial intelligence library is available only in a particular cloud. That's when customers say, Hey miss, they decided, why don't you go to this cloud while the main workload might still be running on them, right? That's the two patterns that we are seeing. >> Right thank you. And I wonder if we can end on a little bit of looking to the future. Maybe how this is all going to evolve over the next several years. I mean, I like to look at it at a spectrum at a journey. It's not going to all come at once. I do think the edge is part of that. But it feels like today we've got, you know, multi clouds are loosely coupled and hybrid is also loosely coupled, but we're moving very quickly to a much more integrated, I think we Manish you talked about integration. Where you've got state, you've got the control plane, you've got the data plane. And all this stuff is really becoming native to the respective clouds and even bring that on-prem and you've got now hybrid applications and much much tighter integration and build this, build out of this massively distributed, maybe going from it's a hyper-converged to hyper-distributed again including the edge. So I wonder Manish we could start with you. How are your customers thinking about the future? How are they thinking about, you know, making sure that they're not going down a path where that's going to, they're going to incur a lot of technical debt? I know there's sort of infrastructure is code and containers and that seems it seems necessary, but insufficient there's a lot of talk about, well maybe we start with a functions based or a serverless architecture. There's some bets that have to be made to make sure that you can future proof yourself. What are you recommending there Manish? >> Yeah, I, listen I think we're just getting started in this journey. And like I said, it's really exciting time and I think there's a lot of evolution in front of us that we're going to see. I, you know, I think for example, I think we're going to see hybrid technologies evolve from public and private thinking to dedicated and shared thinking instead. And I think we're going to see advances in capabilities around automation and computer federation and evolution of consumption models of that data. But I think we've got a lot of kind of technology modifications and enhancements ahead of us. As far as companies and how they future proof themselves. I would offer the following. First of all, I think it's a time for action, right? So I would encourage all my class to take action now. Every day spent in legacy adds to the technical debt that you're going to incur, and it increases your barrier to entry. The second one would be move with agility and flexibility. That's the underlying value of hybrid cloud structures. So organizations really need to learn how to operate in that way and take advantage of that agility and that flexibility. We've talked about creating partnerships in ecosystems I think that's going to be really important. Gathering partners and thought leaders to help you navigate through that complexity. And lastly I would say monetizing your data. Making a value led approach to how you viewed your data assets and force a function where each decision in your enterprise is tied to the value that it creates and is backed by the data that supports it. And I think if you get those things right, the technology and the infrastructure will serve. >> Excellent and Anupam why don't you bring us home, I mean you've got a unique combination of technical acumen and business knowledge. How do you see this evolving over the next three to five years? >> Oh, thank you Dave. So technically speaking, adoption of containers is going to steadily make sure that you're not aware even of what cloud you're running on that day. So the multicloud will not be a requirement even, it will just be obviated when you have that abstraction there. Contrarily, it's going to be a bigger challenge. I would echo what Manish said start today, especially on the cultural side. It is great that you don't have to procure hardware anymore, but that also means that many of us don't know what our cloud bill is going to be next month. It is a very scary feeling for your CIO and your CFO that you don't know how much you're going to to spend next month forget next year, right? So you have to be agile in your financial planning as much you have to be agile in your technical planning. And finally I think you hit on it. Ecosystems are what makes data great. And so you have to start from day one that if I am going on this cloud solution, is the data shareable? Am I able to create an ecosystem around that data? Because without that, it's just somebody running a report may or may not have value to the business. >> That's awesome, guys. Thanks so much for a great conversation. We're at a time and I want to wish everybody a terrific event. Let me now hand it back to Vanita. She's going to take you through the rest of the day. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, thanks. (smooth calm music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hi everybody, welcome to this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante, and as part of my CEO and CXO series I've been bringing in leaders around the industry and I'm really pleased to have Sudheesh Nair, who is the CEO of ThoughtSpot Cube alum. Great to see you against Sudheesh, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure Dave. Thank you so much for having me. I hope everything is well with you and your family. >> Yeah ditto back at you. I know you guys were in a hot spot for a while so you know we power on together, so I got to ask you. You guys are AI specialists, maybe sometimes you can see things before they happen. At what point did you realize that this COVID-19 was really going to be something that would affect businesses globally and then specifically your business. >> Yeah it's amazing, isn't it? I mean we used to think that in Silicon Valley we are sitting at the top of the world. AI and artificial intelligence, machine learning, Cloud, IOT and all of a sudden this little virus comes in and put us all in our places basically. We are all waiting for doctors and others to figure these things out so we can actually go outside. That tells you all about what is really important in life sometimes. It's been a hard journey for most people because of what a huge health event this has been. From a Silicon Valley point of view and specifically from artificial intelligence point of view, there is not a lot of history here that we can use to predict the future, however early February we had our sales kick off and we had a lot of our sellers who came from Asia and it became sort of clear to us immediately during our sales kick off in Napa Valley that this is not like any other event. The sort of things that they were going through in Asia we sort of realized immediately that us and when it gets to the shores of the US, this is going to really hurt. So we started hunkering down as a company, but as you mentioned early when we were talking, California in general had a head start, so we've been hunkered down for almost five weeks now, as a company and as the people and the results are showing. You know it is somewhat contained. Now obviously the real question is what next? How do we go out? But that's probably the next journey. >> So a lot of the executives that I've talked to, of course they start with the number one importance is the health and well-being of our employees. We set up the work from home infrastructure, et cetera. So that's I think, been fairly well played in the media and beginning to understand that pretty well. Also, you saw I talked to Frank Slootman and he's sort of joked about the Sequoia memos, that you know eliminate unnecessary expenses and practices. I've always eliminated unnecessary expenses, keep it to the essentials, but one of the things that I haven't probed with CEOs and I'd love your thoughts on this is, did you have to rethink sort of the ideal customer profile and your value proposition in the specific context of COVID? Was that something that you deliberately did? >> Yeah so it's a really important question that you asked, and I saw the Frank interview and I a 100% agree with that. Inside the company we have this saying, and our co-founder Ajeet actually coined the phrase of living like a middle-class company, and we've always lived that, even though we have, 300 plus million dollars in the bank and we raised a big round last year. It is important to know that as a growth stage company, we are not measured on what's in the bank. It's about the value that we are delivering and how much I'll be able to collect from customers to run the business. The living like a middle-class family has always been the ethos of the company and that has been a good thing. However, I've been with ThoughtSpot for a little more than 18 months. I joined as the CEO. I was an early investor in the company and there are a couple of big changes that we made in the last 18 months, and one of is moving to Cloud which we can talk. The other one has been around narrowing our focus on who we sell to, because one of the things that, as you know very well Dave, is that the world of data is extremely complex. Every company can come in and say, "We have the best solution out there" and it can just be in the world, but the reality is no single product is going to solve every problem for a customer when it comes to a data analytics issue. All we can hope for is that we become part of a package or solution that solves a very specific problem, so in that context there's a lot of services involved, a lot of understanding of customer problems involved. We are not a bi-product in the sense of Tableau or click on Microsoft, but they do. We are about a use case based outcomes, so we knew that we can't be everywhere. So the second change we made is actually a narrower focus, exclusively sell to global. That class, the middle class mentality, really paid off now because almost all the customers we sell to are very large customers and the four work verticals that we were seeing tremendous progress, one was healthcare, second was financial sector, the third was telecom and manufacturing and the last one is repair. Out of these four, I would say manufacturing is the one where we have seen a slowdown, but the other verticals have been, I would say cautiously spending. Being very responsible and thus far, I'm not here to say that everything is fine, but the impact if you take Zoom as a spectrum, on one end of the spectrum, where everything is doing amazingly well, because they are a good product market fit to hospitality industry on the other side. I would say ThoughtSpot and our approach to data analytics is closer to this than that. >> That's very interesting Sudheesh because, of course health care, I don't think they have time to do anything right now. I mean they're just so overwhelmed so that's obviously an interesting area that's going to continue to do well I would think. And they, the Financial Services guys, there's a lot of liquidity in the system and after 2009 the FinTech guys or the financial, the banks are doing quite well. They may squeeze you a little bit because they're smart negotiators, but as you say manufacturing with the supply chains, and in retail, look, if your ecommerce I mean Amazon hit, all-time highs today up whatever, 20% in the last two weeks. I mean just amazing what's happening, so it's really specific parts of those sectors will continue to do well, won't they? >> Absolutely, I think look, I saw this joke on Twitter, what's the number one cost? What is in fact (mic cuts out). Very soon people will say it is COVID and even businesses that have been tried to, sort of relatively, reluctant to really embrace the transformation that the customers have been asking for. This has become the biggest forcing function and that's actually a good thing because consumers are going to ultimately win because once you get groceries delivered to you into your front doors, it's going to be hard to sort of go back to standing in the line in Costco, when InstaCart can actually deliver it for you and you get used to it, so there are some transformation that is going to happen because of COVID. I don't think that society will go back from, but having said that, it's also not transformation for the sake of transformation. So speaking from our point of view on data analytics, I sort of believe that the last three to four years we have been sort of living in the Renaissance of enterprise data analytics and that's primarily because of three things. The first thing, every consumer is expecting, no matter how small or the big business, is to get to know them. You know, I don't want you to treat me like an average. I don't want you treat me like a number. Treat me like a person, which means understand me but personalize the services you are delivering and make sure that everything that you send me are relevant. If there's a marketing campaign or promo or customer support call, make sure it's relevant. The relevance and personalization. The second is, in return for that. customers are willing to give you all sorts of data. The privacy, be damned, so to a certain extent they are giving you location information, medical information,-- And the last part is with Cloud, the amount of data that you can collect and free plus in data warehouse like Snowflakes, like Redshift. It's been fundamentally shifted, so when you toggle them together the customers demand for better actors from the business, then amount of data that they're willing to give and collect to IOT and variables and then cloud-based technologies that allows you to process and store this means that analyzing this data and then delivering relevant actions to the consumers is no longer a nice to have and that I think is part of the reason why ThoughtSpot is finding sort of a tailwind, even with all this global headwind that we are all in. >> Well I think too, the innovation formula really has changed in our industry. I've said many times, it's not Moore's law anymore, it's the combination of data plus AI applied to that data and Cloud for scale and you guys are at the heart of that, so I want to talk about the market space a little bit. You look at BI and analytics, you look at the market. You know the Gartner Magic Quadrant and to your point, you know the companies on there are sort of chalk and cheese, to borrow a phrase from our friends across the pond. I mean, you're not power BI, you're not SaaS. I mean you're sort of search led. You're turning natural language into complex sequel queries. You're bringing in artificial intelligence and machine intelligence to really simplify and dramatically expand and put into the hands of business people analytics. So explain a little bit. First of all, do I have that sort of roughly right? And help us frame the market space how you think about it. >> Yeah I mean first of all, it is amazing that the diverse industry and technologies that you speak to and how you are able to grasp all of them and summarize them within a matter of seconds is a term to understand in itself. You and Stew, you both have that. You are absolutely right. So the way I think of this is that BI technologies have been around and it's played out really well. It played it's part. I mean if you look at it the way I think of BI, the most biggest BI tool is still Excel. People still want to use Excel and that is the number one BI tool ever. Then 10 years ago Tableau came in and made visualizations so delightful and a pic so to speak. That became the better way to consume complex data. Then Microsoft came in Power BI and then commoditized and the visualization to a point that, you know Tableau had to fight and it ended up selling to the Salesforce. We are not trying to play there because I think if you chase the idea of visualization it is going to be a long hard journey for ThoughtSpot to catch Tableau in visualization. That's not what we are trying to do. What we are trying to do is that you have a lot of data on one hand and you have a consumer sitting here and saying data doesn't mean you treated me well. What is my action that is this quote, very customized action quote. And our question is, how does beta turn into bespoke action inside a business? The insurance company is calling. You are calling an insurance company's customer support person. How do you know that the impact that you are getting from them is customized. But turning data into insight is an algorithmic process. That's what BI does, but that's like a few people in an organization can do that. Think of them like oil. They don't mix with water, that's the business people. The merchandising specialist who figures out which one should become site and what should be the price what should be ranking. That's the merchandiser. Their customer support person, that's a business user. They don't necessarily do Python or SQL, so what happens is in businesses you have the data people like water and the business people who touch the customer and interact with them every day, they're like the water. They don't mix. The idea of ThoughtSpot is very simple. We don't want this demarcation. We don't want this chasm. We want to break it so that every single person who interact with the customer should be able to have an interactive storytelling with the data, so that every decision that they make takes data into insight to knowledge to action, and that decision-making pipeline cannot be gut driven alone. It has to be enabled by data science and human experience coming together. So in our view, a well deployed data platform, decision-making platform, will enhance and augment human experience, as opposed to human experience says, this data says that, so you've got to pick one. That's an old model and that has been the approach with natural language based interactive access with the BI being done automated through AI in the backend, parts what we are able to put very complex data science in front of a 20 year experienced merchandising specialist in a large e-commerce website without learning Python, without learning people, without understanding data warehouse >> Right so, a couple of things I want to pick up on. I mean data is plentiful, insights aren't. That's really the takeaway from one of the things that you mentioned and this notion of storytelling is very, very important. I mean, all business people, they better be storytellers in some way shape or form and what better way to tell stories than with data, and so, because as you say it's no longer gut feel, it's not the answer anymore. So it seems to me Sudheesh, that you guys are transformative. The decision to focus on the global 2000 and really not, get washed up in the Excel, well I could just do it in Excel, or I'm going to go get Power BI, it's good enough. It's really, you're trying to be transformative and you've got a really disruptive model that we talked about before, search led and you're speaking to the system, or, typing in a way that's more natural, I wonder if you could comment on that and particularly that disruption of that transformation. >> Remember we are selling to global 2000. Almost all of them will have Tableau or one of these power BI or one of these solutions already, so you're not trying to go right and change that. What we have done is very clearly focus on use cases. We're transforming data into action. We will move the needle for the bit, but for example with the COVID situation going on, one of the most popular use cases for us is around working capital management. Now a CFO who's been in the business for 20 or 30 years is an expert and have the right kind of gut feeling about how her business is running when it comes to working capital. However, imagine now she can do 20 what-if scenarios in the next five seconds or next 10 minutes without going to the SPN 18, without going to the BI team. She can say what if we reduce hiring in Japan and instead we focus them on Singapore? What if we move 20% of marketing dollars from Germany to New York? What would be the impact of AR going up by 1% versus AP going down by 1%? She needs to now do complex scenarios, but without delay. It's sort of like how do I find a restaurant through Yelp versus going to the lobby to talk to a specialist who tells me the local restaurant. This interactive database storytelling for gut enhances the decision-making is very powerful. This is why, customer have, our largest customer has spent more than $26 million with ThougthSpot and this is not small. Our average is around close to 700k. This week for example, we are having a webinar where Verizon's SVP of Analytics specifically focused on finance. He's actually going to be on a webinar with our CFO. Our CFO Sophie, one of our financial specialists and Jeff Noto from Verizon are going to be on this talking about working capital management. What parts ThoughtSpot is a portion of, but they are sharing their experience of how do we manage, so that kind of varies, like extremely rigid focus on use cases, supply chain, modeling different things so that someone who knows Asia can really interact with the data to figure out if our supply chain from Bangladesh is going to be impacted because of COVID can we go to Ecuador? What will that look like? What will be the cost? What's the transportation cost, the fuel cost, Business has become so complex you don't have time to take five, six days to look at the report, no matter how pretty that report is, you have to make it efficient. You need to be able to make a lightning fast decision and something like COVID is really exposing all of that because day by day situation on the ground is changing. You know, employees are calling in sick. The virus is breaking out in one place, other place. If it's not, curves are going up and down so you cannot have any sort of delay between human experience and data signs and all of that comes down to your point telling visual stories so that the organization can rally behind the changes that they want to make. >> So these are mission-critical use cases. They are big problems that you're solving and attacking. As you said, you're not all things to all people. One of the things you're not is a data store, right? So you've got a partner, you've got to have an ecosystem, whether it's cloud databases, the cloud itself. I wonder if you could talk about some of the key partnerships that you're forming and how you're going to market and how that's affecting your business. >> Yeah, I mean one of the things that I've always believed in Silicon Valley is that companies die out of indigestion, not out of starvation. You try to do everything. That's how you end up dying and for us in the space of data, it's an extremely humbling space because there is so much to do, data prep, data warehousing, you know a mash-up of data, hosting of data, We have clearly decided that our ability is best spent on making artificial intelligence to work, interactive storytelling for business use and that's it. With that said, we needed a high velocity agility partner in the back end and Cloud based data warehouse have become a huge tailwind for us because our entire customer deployments are on Cloud, and the number one, obviously as you know from Frank's thing, the Snowflake has actually given, customers have seen Snowflakes plus ThoughtSpot is actually a good thing and we are exclusive in global 2000 and the Snowflake is climbing up there and we are able to build a good mutual partnership, but we are also seeing a really creative partnership all the way from product design to go to market and compensation alignment with Amazon on their push on Redshift as well. Google, we have announced partnership. There is a little bit of (mic cuts out) in the beginning we are getting, and just a couple of weeks ago we started working with Microsoft on their Azure Synapse algo. Now I would say that it's lagging, we still have work to do but Amazon and Snowflake are really pushing in terms of what customers want to see, and it completely aligns with our value popular, one plus one equals three. It really works well for our customers >> And Google is what, BigQuery plus Google Cloud, or what are you doing there? >> Yep so both Amazon and Google. Well, what we are doing at three different pieces. One if obviously the hosting of their cloud platforms. Second is data warehouse and enterprise data warehouse, which is Redshift and BigQuery. Third, we are also pretty good at taking machine learning algorithms that they have built for specific verticals. We're going to take those and then ingest them and deliver better. So for example if you are one of the largest supply companies in the world and you want to know what's the shipment rate from China and it shows and then the next thing you want to know is what the failure rate on this based on last behavior when you compressed a shipment rate, and that probably could use a bit of specific algorithms and you know Google and others have actually built a library of algorithms that can be injected into ThoughtSpot. We will simply answer the question of we may have gotten that algorithm from the Google library, sort of the business use is concerned. It doesn't really matter, so we have made all that invisible and we are able to deliver democratized access to Bespoke Insights to a business user, who are too sort of been afraid to deal with the sector data. >> Since you mentioned that you've got obviously several hundred million dollars in cash. You've raised over half a billion. You've talked previously about potential acquisitions, about IPO, are you considering acquisitions? M&A at this point in time? I mean there may be some deals out there. There's certainly some talent out there, but boy the market is changing so fast. I mean, it seems to, certain sectors are actually doing quite well. Will you consider M&A at this point? >> Yes, so I think IPO and M&A are two different-- IPO definitely, it will be foolish to say that this hasn't pushed our clients back a little bit because this is a huge event. I think there will be a correction across valuation and all of that. However, it is also important for us we use this opportunity to look at how we are investing our resources and investment for long-term versus the short-term and make sure that we are more focused and more tightening at the belt. We are doing that internally. Having said that, being a private company our valuation is, you know at least in theory, frozen, and then we have a pretty good cash position of close to $300 million, which means that it is absolutely an opportunity for us to seriously consider M&A. The important thing going back to my adage of, companies don't die out of starvation. It is critical to make sure that whatever we do, we do it with clarity. Are we doing it for talent? Are we doing it for tech? Or are we doing it for market? When you have a massive event like this, it is a poor idea to go after new market. It is important to go to our existing customers who are very large global 2000 firms and then identify problems that we cannot solve otherwise and then add technology to solve those problems, so technology acquisitions are absolutely something to consider, but it needs some more time to settle in because, the first two weeks were all people who were blindsided by this, then the last two weeks we have now gotten the mojo back in sales and mojo back in engineering, and now I think it is time for us to digest and prepare for these next two, three quarters of event and as part of that, companies like us who are fortunate enough to be on a good cash position, we'll absolutely look for interesting and good deals in the M&S space. >> Yeah, it makes sense, is tell and tech and, post IPO you can worry about Tam expansion. You'll be under pressure to do that as the CEO, but for now that's a very pragmatic approach. My last question is, there's some things when you think about, you say five weeks now you've been essentially on lockdown. You must, as many of us start thinking about wow, a lot of this work from home which came so fast people wouldn't even think about it earlier. You know, some companies mandated the beehive approach. Now everybody's open to that. There are certain things that are likely to remain permanent post COVID. Have you thought much about that? Generally and specifically how it might affect your business, the permanence of post COVID. Your thoughts. >> Yeah I've thought a lot about it. In fact, this morning I was speaking with our CRO Brian McCarthy about this. I think the change will happen, think of like an onion's inner most layer, I think the most, my hope is, that the biggest change will be in every one of us internally, as a what sort of a person am I and what does my position in the world means. The ego of each one of us that we carry because if this global event in one shot did not make you rethink your own sort of position in this big universe I think that's a mess. So the first thing has to be about being a better person. The second thing is, I had this two, three days of fever which was negative for COVID but I isolated myself, but that gave me sort of an idea of dipping in the dark room where I'm hoping my family won't get infected and you know my parents are in India so I sort of also realized that what is really important for you in life and how much family should mean to you, so that goes to the first, yourself second, your relationship with family, but having said that, the third thing when it comes to business building is also the importance for building with quality people, because when things go wrong it is so critical to have people who believe in the purpose of what you are trying to build. People with good faith and unshakable faith, personal faith and unshakable faith in the purpose of the company and most importantly you mentioned something which is the story telling. People, leaders who can absolutely communicate with clarity and certainty. It becomes the most important thing to lead an organization. I mean, you are a small business owner. You know we are in a small company with around 500 people. There is nothing like sitting at home waiting to see how the company is doing over email if you're a friend line engineer or a seller. Communication becomes so critical, so having the trust and the respect of organization and have the ability to clearly and transparently communicate is the most important thing for the company and over communicating due to the time of crisis. These things are so useful even after this crisis is over. Obviously from a technology point of view, you know people have been speaking a lot about working remotely and technology changes, security, those things will happen but I think if these three things were to happen in that order. Be a better person, be a better family member and be a better leader, I think the world will be better off and the last thing I'll also tell you, that you know in Silicon Valley sometimes we have this disregard for arts and literature and fight over science. I hope that goes away, because I can't imagine living without books, without movies, without Netflix and everything. Art makes yourself creative and enriches our lives. You know, sports is no longer there on TV and the fact that people are able to immerse their imagination in books and fiction and watch TV. That also reminds you how important it is to have a good balance between arts and science in this world, so I have a long list of things that I hope we as a people and as a society will get better. >> Yeah, a lot more game playing in our household and it's good to reconnect in that regard. Well Sudheesh, you've always been a very clear thinker and you're in a great spot and an awesome leader. Thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It was really great to see you again. All the best to you, your family and the broader community in your area. >> Dave, you've been very kind with this. Thank you so much, I wish you the same and hopefully we'll get to see face-to-face in the near future. Thanks a lot. >> I hope so, thank you. All right and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

[Music] when welcome to the special exclusive cube conversation here in Palo Alto in our studios I'm John for your host of the cube we have a very special guest speaking for the first time around some alleged alleged accusations and also innuendo around the Amazon Web Services Jedi contract and his firm c5 capital our guest as Andre Pienaar who's the founder of c5 capital Andre is here for the first time to talk about some of the hard conversations and questions surrounding his role his firm and the story from the BBC Andre thanks for a rat for meeting with me John great to have me thank you so you're at the center of a controversy and just for the folks who know the cube know we interviewed a lot of people I've interviewed you at Amazon web sources summit Teresa Carl's event and last year I met you and bought a rein the work you're doing there so I've met you a few times so I don't know your background but I want to drill into it because I was surprised to see the BBC story come out last week that was basically accusing you of many things including are you a spy are you infiltrating the US government through the Jedi contract through Amazon and knowing c-5 capital I saw no correlation when reading your article I was kind of disturbed but then I saw I said a follow-on stories it just didn't hang together so I wanted to press you on some questions and thanks for coming in and addressing them appreciate it John thanks for having me so first thing I want to ask you is you know it has you at the center this firm c5 capital that you the founder of at the center of what looks like to be the fight for the big ten billion dollar DoD contract which has been put out to multiple vendors so it's not a single source deal we've covered extensively on silicon angle calm and the cube and the government the government Accounting Office has ruled that there are six main benefits of going with a sole provider cloud this seems to be the war so Oracle IBM and others have been been involved we've been covering that so it kind of smells like something's going along with the story and I just didn't believe some of the things I read and I want to especially about you and see five capitals so I want to dig into what the first thing is it's c5 capital involved in the Jedi contract with AWS Sean not at all we have absolutely no involvement in the Jedi contract in any way we're not a bidder and we haven't done any lobbying as has been alleged by some of the people who've been making this allegation c5 has got no involvement in the general contract we're a venture capital firm with a British venture capital firm we have the privilege of investing here in the US as a foreign investor and our focus really is on the growth and the success of the startups that we are invested in so you have no business interest at all in the deal Department of Defense Jedi contract none whatsoever okay so to take a minute to explain c5 firm I read some of the stories there and some of the things were intricate structures of c5 cap made it sound like there was like a cloak-and-dagger situation I want to ask you some hard questions around that because there's a link to a Russian situation but before we get to there I want to ask you explain what is c5 capital your mission what are the things that you're doing c5 is a is a British venture capital firm and we are focused on investing into fast-growing technology companies in three areas cloud computing cyber security and artificial intelligence we have two parts our business c5 capital which invests into late stage companies so these are companies that typically already have revenue visibility and profitability but still very fast-growing and then we also have a very early stage startup platform that look at seed state investment and this we do through two accelerators to social impact accelerators one in Washington and one in Bahrain and it's just size of money involved just sort of order magnitude how many funds do you have how is it structure again just share some insight on that is it is there one firm is there multiple firms how is it knows it work well today the venture capital business has to be very transparent it's required by compliance we are a regulated regulated firm we are regulated in multiple markets we regulated here in the US the sec as a foreign investor in london by the financial conduct authority and in Luxembourg where Afonso based by the regulatory authorities there so in the venture capital industry today you can't afford to be an opaque business you have to be transparent at all levels and money in the Western world have become almost completely transparent so there's a very comprehensive and thorough due diligence when you onboard capital called know your client and the requirements standard requirement now is that whenever you're onboard capital from investor you're gonna take it right up to the level of the ultimate beneficial ownership so who actually owns this money and then every time you invest and you move your money around it gets diligence together different regulators and in terms of disclosure and the same applies often now with clients when our portfolio companies have important or significant clients they also want to know who's behind the products and the services they receive so often our boards our board directors and a shell team also get diligence by by important clients so explain this piece about the due diligence and the cross country vetting that goes on is I think it's important I want to get it out because how long has been operating how many deals have you done you mentioned foreign investor in the United States you're doing deals in the United States I know I've met one of your portfolio companies at an event iron iron on it iron net general Keith Alexander former head of the NSA you know get to just work with him without being vetted I guess so so how long a c5 capital been in business and where have you made your investments you mentioned cross jurisdiction across countries whatever it's called I don't know that so we've been and we've been in existence for about six years now our main focus is investing in Europe so we help European companies grow globally Europe historically has been underserved by venture capital we on an annual basis we invest about twenty seven billion dollars gets invested in venture capital in Europe as opposed to several multiples of that in the US so we have a very important part to play in Europe to how European enterprise software companies grow globally other important markets for us of course are Israel which is a major center of technology innovation and and the Middle East and then the u.s. the u.s. is still the world leader and venture capital both in terms of size but also in terms of the size of the market and of course the face and the excitement of the innovation here I want to get into me early career because again timing is key we're seeing this with you know whether it's a Supreme Court justice or anyone in their career their past comes back to haunt them it appears that has for you before we get there I want to ask you about you know when you look at the kind of scope of fraud and corruption that I've seen in just on the surface of government thing the government bit Beltway bandits in America is you got a nonprofit that feeds a for-profit and then what you know someone else runs a shell corporation so there's this intricate structures and that word was used which it kind of implies shell corporations a variety of backroom kind of smokey deals going on you mentioned transparency I do you have anything to hide John in in in our business we've got absolutely nothing to hide we have to be transparent we have to be open if you look at our social media profile you'll see we are communicating with the market almost on a daily basis every time we make an investment we press release that our website is very clear about who's involved enough who our partners are and the same applies to my own personal website and so in terms of the money movement around in terms of deploying investments we've seen Silicon Valley VCS move to China get their butts handed to them and then kind of adjust their scenes China money move around when you move money around you mentioned disclosure what do you mean there's filings to explain that piece it's just a little bit so every time we make an investment into a into a new portfolio company and we move the money to that market to make the investment we have to disclose who all the investors are who are involved in that investment so we have to disclose the ultimate beneficial ownership of all our limited partners to the law firms that are involved in the transactions and those law firms in turn have applications in terms of they own anti-money laundering laws in the local markets and this happens every time you move money around so I I think that the level of transparency in venture capital is just continue to rise exponentially and it's virtually impossible to conceal the identity of an investor this interesting this BBC article has a theme of national security risk kind of gloom and doom nuclear codes as mentioned it's like you want to scare someone you throw nuclear codes at it you want to get people's attention you play the Russian card I saw an article on the web that that said you know anything these days the me2 movement for governments just play the Russian card and you know instantly can discredit someone's kind of a desperation act so you got confident of interest in the government national security risk seems to be kind of a theme but before we get into the BBC news I noticed that there was a lot of conflated pieces kind of pulling together you know on one hand you know you're c5 you've done some things with your hat your past and then they just make basically associate that with running amazon's jedi project yes which i know is not to be true and you clarified that joan ends a problem joan so as a venture capital firm focused on investing in the space we have to work with all the Tier one cloud providers we are great believers in commercial cloud public cloud we believe that this is absolutely transformative not only for innovation but also for the way in which we do venture capital investment so we work with Amazon Web Services we work with Microsoft who work with Google and we believe that firstly that cloud has been made in America the first 15 companies in the world are all in cloud companies are all American and we believe that cloud like the internet and GPS are two great boons which the US economy the u.s. innovation economy have provided to the rest of the world cloud computing is reducing the cost of computing power with 50 percent every three years opening up innovation and opportunities for Entrepreneurship for health and well-being for the growth of economies on an unprecedented scale cloud computing is as important to the global economy today as the dollar ease as the world's reserve currency so we are great believers in cloud we great believers in American cloud computing companies as far as Amazon is concerned our relationship with Amazon Amazon is very Amazon Web Services is very clear and it's very defined we participate in a public Marcus program called AWS activate through which AWS supports hundreds of accelerators around the world with know-how with mentoring with teaching and with cloud credits to help entrepreneurs and startups grow their businesses and we have a very exciting focus for our two accelerators which is on in Washington we focus on peace technology we focus on taking entrepreneurs from conflict countries like Sudan Nigeria Pakistan to come to Washington to work on campus in the US government building the u.s. Institute for peace to scale these startups to learn all about cloud computing to learn how they can grow their businesses with cloud computing and to go back to their own countries to build peace and stability and prosperity their heaven so we're very proud of this mission in the Middle East and Bahrain our focus is on on female founders and female entrepreneurs we've got a program called nebula through which we empower female founders and female entrepreneurs interesting in the Middle East the statistics are the reverse from what we have in the West the majority of IT graduates in the Middle East are fimo and so there's a tremendous talent pool of of young dynamic female entrepreneurs coming out of not only the Gulf but the whole of the MENA region how about a relation with Amazon websites outside of their normal incubators they have incubators all over the place in the Amazon put out as Amazon Web Services put out a statement that said hey you know we have a lot of relationships with incubators this is normal course of business I know here in Silicon Valley at the startup loft this is this is their market filled market playbook so you fit into that is that correct as I'm I get that that's that's absolutely correct what we what is unusual about a table insists that this is a huge company that's focused on tiny startups a table started with startups it double uses first clients with startups and so here you have a huge business that has a deep understanding of startups and focus on startups and that's enormous the attractor for us and terrific for our accelerators department with them have you at c5 Capitol or individually have any formal or conversation with Amazon employees where you've had outside of giving feedback on products where you've tried to make change on their technology make change with their product management teams engineering you ever had at c5 capital whore have you personally been involved in influencing Amazon's product roadmap outside they're just giving normal feedback in the course of business that's way above my pay grade John firstly we don't have that kind of technical expertise in C 5 C 5 steam consists of a combination of entrepreneurs like myself people understand money really well and leaders we don't have that level of technical expertise and secondly that's what one our relationship with AWS is all about our relationship is entirely limited to the two startups and making sure that the two accelerators in making sure that the startups who pass through those accelerators succeed and make social impact and as a partner network component Amazon it's all put out there yes so in in a Barren accelerator we've we formed part of the Amazon partner network and the reason why we we did that was because we wanted to give some of the young people who come through the accelerator and know mastering cloud skills an opportunity to work on some real projects and real live projects so some of our young golf entrepreneurs female entrepreneurs have been working on building websites on Amazon Cloud and c5 capital has a relationship with former government officials you funded startups and cybersecurity that's kind of normal can you explain that positioning of it of how former government if it's whether it's US and abroad are involved in entrepreneurial activities and why that is may or may not be a problem certainly is a lot of kind of I would say smoke around this conversation around coffin of interest and you can you explain intelligence what that was it so I think the model for venture capital has been evolving and increasingly you get more and more differentiated models one of the key areas in which the venture capital model is changed is the fact that operating partners have become much more important to the success of venture capital firms so operating partners are people who bring real world experience to the investment experience of the investment team and in c-five we have the privilege of having a terrific group of operating partners people with both government and commercial backgrounds and they work very actively enough firm at all levels from our decision-making to the training and the mentoring of our team to helping us understand the way in which the world is exchanging to risk management to helping uh portfolio companies grow and Silicon Valley true with that to injuries in Horowitz two founders mr. friendly they bring in operating people that have entrepreneurial skills this is the new model understand order which has been a great source of inspiration to us for our model and and we built really believe this is a new model and it's really critical for the success of venture capitals to be going forward and the global impact is pretty significant one of things you mentioned I want to get your take on is as you operate a global transaction a lots happened a lot has to happen I mean we look at the ICO market on the cryptocurrency side its kind of you know plummeting obsoletes it's over now the mood security children's regulatory and transparency becomes critical you feel fully confident that you haven't you know from a regulatory standpoint c5 capital everything's out there absolutely risk management and regulated compliance and legal as the workstream have become absolutely critical for the success of venture capital firms and one of the reasons why this becomes so important John is because the venture capital world over the last few years have changed dramatically historically all the people involved in venture capital had very familiar names and came from very familiar places over the last few years with a diversification of global economic growth we've seen it's very significant amounts of money being invest invested in startups in China some people more money will invest in startups this year in China than in the US and we've seen countries like Saudi Arabia becoming a major source of venture capital funding some people say that as much as 70% of funding rounds this year in some way or another originated from the Gulf and we've seen places like Russia beginning to take an interest in technology innovation so the venture capital world is changing and for that reason compliance and regulation have become much more important but if Russians put 200 million dollars in face book and write out the check companies bright before that when the after 2008 we saw the rise of social networking I think global money certainly has something that I think a lot of people start getting used to and I want on trill down into that a little bit we talked about this BBC story that that hit and the the follow-on stories which actually didn't get picked up was mostly doing more regurgitation of the same story but one of the things that that they focus in on and the story was you and the trend now is your past is your enemy these days you know they try to drum up stuff in the past you've had a long career some of the stuff that they've been bringing in to paint you and the light that they did was from your past so I wanted to explore that with you I know you this is the first time you've talked about this and I appreciate you taking the time talk about your early career your background where you went to school because the way I'm reading this it sounds like you're a shady character I like like I interviewed on the queue but I didn't see that but you know I'm going to pressure here for that if you don't mind I'd like to to dig into that John thank you for that so I've had the I've had the privilege of a really amazingly interesting life and at the heart of at the heart of that great adventures been people and the privilege to work with really great people and good people I was born in South Africa I grew up in Africa went to school there qualified as a lawyer and then came to study in Britain when I studied international politics when I finished my studies international politics I got head hunted by a US consulting firm called crow which was a start of a 20 years career as an investigator first in crawl where I was a managing director in the London and then in building my own consulting firm which was called g3 and all of this led me to cybersecurity because as an investigator looking into organized crime looking into corruption looking into asset racing increasingly as the years went on everything became digital and I became very interested in finding evidence on electronic devices but starting my career and CRO was tremendous because Jules Kroll was a incredible mentor he could walk through an office and call everybody by their first name any Kroll office anywhere in the world and he always took a kindly interest in the people who work for him so it was a great school to go to and and I worked on some terrific cases including some very interesting Russian cases and Russian organized crime cases just this bag of Kroll was I've had a core competency in doing investigative work and also due diligence was that kind of focus yes although Kroll was the first company in the world to really have a strong digital practice led by Alan Brugler of New York Alan established the first computer forensics practice which was all focused about finding evidence on devices and everything I know about cyber security today started with me going to school with Alan Brolin crawl and they also focused on corruption uncovering this is from Wikipedia Kroll clients help Kroll helps clients improve operations by uncovering kickbacks fraud another form of corruptions other specialty areas is forensic accounting background screening drug testing electronic investigation data recovery SATA result Omar's McLennan in 2004 for 1.9 billion mark divested Kroll to another company I'll take credit risk management to diligence investigator in Falls Church Virginia over 150 countries call Kroll was the first CRO was the first household brand name in this field of of investigations and today's still is probably one of the strongest brand names and so it was a great firm to work in and was a great privilege to be part of it yeah high-end high-profile deals were there how many employees were in Kroll cuz I'd imagine that the alumni that that came out of Kroll probably have found places in other jobs similar to yes do an investigative work like you know they out them all over the world many many alumni from Kroll and many of them doing really well and doing great work ok great so now the next question want to ask you is when you in Kroll the South Africa connection came up so I got to ask you it says business side that you're a former South African spy are you a former South African spy no John I've never worked for any government agency and in developing my career my my whole focus has been on investigations out of the Kroll London office I did have the opportunity to work in South Africa out of the Kroll London office and this was really a seminal moment in my career when I went to South Africa on a case for a major international credit-card company immediately after the end of apartheid when democracy started to look into the scale and extent of credit card fraud at the request of this guy what year was there - how old were you this was in 1995 1996 I was 25 26 years old and one of the things which this credit card company asked me to do was to assess what was the capability of the new democratic government in South Africa under Nelson Mandela to deal with crime and so I had the privilege of meeting mr. Mandela as the president to discuss this issue with him and it was an extraordinary man the country's history because there was such an openness and a willingness to to address issues of this nature and to grapple with them so he was released from prison at that time I remember those days and he became president that's why he called you and you met with him face to face of a business conversation around working on what the future democracy is and trying to look at from a corruption standpoint or just kind of in general was that what was that conversation can you share so so that so the meeting involved President Mandela and and the relevant cabinet ministers the relevant secretaries and his cabinet - responsible for for these issues and the focus of our conversation really started with well how do you deal with credit card fraud and how do you deal with large-scale fraud that could be driven by organized crime and at the time this was an issue of great concern to the president because there was bombing in Kate of a Planet Hollywood cafe where a number of people got very severely injured and the president believed that this could have been the result of a protection racket in Cape Town and so he wanted to do something about it he was incredibly proactive and forward-leaning and in an extraordinary way he ended the conversation by by asking where the Kroll can help him and so he commissioned Kroll to build the capacity of all the black officers that came out of the ANC and have gone into key government positions on how to manage organized crime investigations it was the challenge at that time honestly I can imagine apartheid I remember you know I was just at a college that's not properly around the same age as you it was a dynamic time to say the least was his issue around lack of training old school techniques because you know that was right down post-cold-war and then did what were the concerns not enough people was it just out of control was it a corrupt I mean just I mean what was the core issue that Nelson wanted to hire Kroll and you could work his core issue was he wanted to ensure the stability of South Africa's democracy that was his core focus and he wanted to make South Africa an attractive place where international companies felt comfortable and confident in investing and that was his focus and he felt that at that time because so many of the key people in the ANC only had training in a cold war context that there wasn't a Nessy skill set to do complex financial or more modern investigations and it was very much focused he was always the innovator he was very much focused on bringing the best practices and the best investigative techniques to the country he was I felt in such a hurry that he doesn't want to do this by going to other governments and asking for the help he wanted to Commission it himself and so he gave he gave a crawl with me as the project leader a contract to do this and my namesake Francois Pienaar has become very well known because of the film Invictus and he's been he had the benefit of Mandela as a mentor and as a supporter and that changed his career the same thing happened to me so what did he actually asked you to do was it to train build a force because there's this talk that and was a despite corruption specifically it was it more both corruption and or stability because they kind of go hand in hand policy and it's a very close link between corruption and instability and and president Ellis instructions were very clear to Crowley said go out and find me the best people in the world the most experienced people in the world who can come to South Africa and train my people how to fight organized crime so I went out and I found some of the best people from the CIA from mi6 the British intelligence service from the Drug Enforcement Agency here in the US form officers from the Federal Bureau of Investigation's detectives from Scotland Yard prosecutors from the US Justice Department and all of them for a number of years traveled to South Africa to train black officers who were newly appointed in key roles in how to combat organized crime and this was you acting as an employee he had crow there's not some operative this is he this was me very much acting as a as an executive and crow I was the project leader Kroll was very well structured and organized and I reported to the chief executive officer in the London office nor Garret who was the former head of the CIA's Near East Division and Nelson Mandela was intimately involved in this with you at Krall President Mandela was the ultimate support of this project and he then designated several ministers to work on it and also senior officials in the stories that had been put out this past week they talked about this to try to make it sound like you're involved on two sides of the equation they bring up scorpions was this the scorpions project that they referred to so it was the scorpions scorpion sounds so dangerous and a movie well there's a movie a movie does feature this so at the end of the training project President Mandela and deputy president Thabo Mbeki who subsequently succeeded him as president put together a ministerial committee to look at what should they do with the capacity that's been built with this investment that they made because for a period of about three years we had all the leading people the most experienced people that have come out of some of the best law enforcement agencies and some of the best intelligence services come and trained in South Africa and this was quite this was quite something John because many of the senior officers in the ANC came from a background where they were trained by the opponents of the people came to treat trained them so so many of them were trained by the Stasi in East Germany some of them were trained by the Russian KGB some of them were trained by the Cubans so we not only had to train them we also had to win their trust and when we started this that's a diverse set of potential dogma and or just habits a theory modernised if you will right is that what the there was there was a question of of learning new skills and there was a question about also about learning management capabilities there was also question of learning the importance of the media for when you do difficult and complex investigations there was a question about using digital resources but there was also fundamentally a question of just building trust and when we started this program none of the black officers wanted to be photographed with all these foreign trainers who were senior foreign intelligence officers when we finished that everyone wanted to be in the photograph and so this was a great South African success story but the President and the deputy president then reflected on what to do with his capacity and they appointed the ministerial task force to do this and we were asked to make recommendations to this Minister ministerial task force and one of the things which we did was we showed them a movie because you referenced the movie and the movie we showed them was the untouchables with Kevin Costner and Sean Connery which is still one of my favorite and and greatest movies and the story The Untouchables is about police corruption in Chicago and how in the Treasury Department a man called Eliot Ness put together a group of officers from which he selected from different places with clean hands to go after corruption during the Probie and this really captured the president's imagination and so he said that's what he want and Ella yeah okay so he said della one of the untouchables he wanted Eliot Ness exactly Al Capone's out there and and how many people were in that goodness so we asked that we we established the government then established decided to establish and this was passed as a law through Parliament the director of special operations the DSO which colloquy became known as the scorpions and it had a scorpion as a symbol for this unit and this became a standalone anti-corruption unit and the brilliant thing about it John was that the first intake of scorpion officers were all young black graduates many of them law graduates and at the time Janet Reno was the US Attorney General played a very crucial role she allowed half of the first intake of young cratchits to go to Quantico and to do the full FBI course in Quantico and this was the first group of foreign students who've ever been admitted to Quantico to do the full Quantico were you involved at what score's at that time yes sir and so you worked with President Mandela yes the set of the scorpions is untouchable skiing for the first time as a new democracy is emerging the landscape is certainly changing there's a transformation happening we all know the history laugh you don't watch Invictus probably great movie to do that you then worked with the Attorney General United States to cross-pollinate the folks in South Africa black officers law degrees Samar's fresh yes this unit with Quantico yes in the United States I had the privilege of attending the the graduation ceremony of the first of South African officers that completed the Quantico course and representing crow they on the day you had us relationships at that time to crawl across pollen I had the privilege of working with some of the best law enforcement officers and best intelligence officers that has come out of the u.s. services and they've been tremendous mentors in my career they've really shaped my thinking they've shaped my values and they've they've shaved my character so you're still under 30 at this time so give us a is that where this where are we in time now just about a 30 so you know around the nine late nineties still 90s yeah so client-server technologies there okay so also the story references Leonard McCarthy and these spy tapes what is this spy tape saga about it says you had a conversation with McCarthy me I'm thinking that a phone tap explain that spy tape saga what does it mean who's Lennon McCarthy explain yourself so so so Leonard McCarthy it's a US citizen today he served two terms as the vice president for institutional integrity at the World Bank which is the world's most important anti-corruption official he started his career as a prosecutor in South Africa many years ago and then became the head of the economic crimes division in the South African Justice Department and eventually became the head of the scorpions and many years after I've left Kroll and were no longer involved in in the work of the scorpions he texted me one evening expressing a concern and an anxiety that I had about the safety of his family and I replied to him with two text messages one was a Bible verse and the other one was a Latin saying and my advice name was follow the rule of law and put the safety of your family first and that was the advice I gave him so this is how I imagined the year I think of it the internet was just there this was him this was roundabout 2000 December 2007 okay so there was I phone just hit so text messaging Nokia phones all those big yeah probably more text message there so you sitting anywhere in London you get a text message from your friend yep later this past late tonight asking for help and advice and I gave him the best advice I can he unfortunately was being wiretapped and those wiretaps were subsequently published and became the subject of much controversy they've now been scrutinized by South Africa's highest court and the court has decided that those wiretaps are of no impact and of importance in the scheme of judicial decision-making and our unknown provenance and on and on unknown reliability they threw it out basically yeah they're basically that's the president he had some scandals priors and corruption but back to the tapes you the only involvement on the spy tapes was friend sending you a text message that says hey I'm running a corruption you know I'm afraid for my life my family what do I do and you give some advice general advice and that's it as there was there any more interactions with us no that's it that's it okay so you weren't like yeah working with it hey here's what we get strategy there was nothing that going on no other interactions just a friendly advice and that's what they put you I gave him my I gave him my best advice when you when you work in when you work as an investigator very much as and it's very similar in venture capital it's all about relationships and you want to preserve relationships for the long term and you develop deep royalties to its people particularly people with whom you've been through difficult situations as I have been with Leonard much earlier on when I was still involved in Kroll and giving advice to South African government on issues related to the scorpius so that that has a lot of holes and I did think that was kind of weird they actually can produce the actual tax I couldn't find that the spy tapes so there's a spy tape scandal out there your name is on out on one little transaction globbed on to you I mean how do you feel about that I mean you must've been pretty pissed when you saw that when you do it when when you do when you do investigative work you see really see everything and all kinds of things and the bigger the issues that you deal with the more frequently you see things that other people might find unusual I are you doing any work right now with c5 at South Africa and none whatsoever so I've I retired from my investigative Korea in 2014 I did terrific 20 years as an investigator during my time as investigator I came to understood the importance of digital and cyber and so at the end of it I saw an opportunity to serve a sector that historically have been underserved with capital which is cyber security and of course there are two areas very closely related to cyber security artificial intelligence and cloud and that's why I created c5 after I sold my investigator firm with five other families who equally believed in the importance of investing private capital to make a difference invest in private capital to help bring about innovation that can bring stability to the digital world and that's the mission of c-5 before I get to the heart news I want to drill in on the BBC stories I think that's really the focal point of you know why we're talking just you know from my standpoint I remember living as a young person in that time breaking into the business you know my 20s and 30s you had Live Aid in 1985 and you had 1995 the internet happened there was so much going on between those that decade 85 to 95 you were there I was an American so I didn't really have a lot exposure I did some work for IBM and Europe in 1980 says it's co-op student but you know I had some peak in the international world it must been pretty dynamic the cross-pollination the melting pot of countries you know the Berlin Wall goes down you had the cold war's ending you had apartheid a lot of things were going on around you yes so in that dynamic because if if the standard is you had links to someone you know talked about why how important it was that this melting pot and how it affected your relationships and how it looks now looking back because now you can almost tie anything to anything yes so I think the 90s was one of the most exciting periods of time because you had the birth of the internet and I started working on Internet related issues yet 20 million users today we have three and a half billion users and ten billion devices unthinkable at the time but in the wake of the internet also came a lot of changes as you say the Berlin Wall came down democracy in South Africa the Oslo peace process in the time that I worked in Kroll some of them made most important and damaging civil wars in Africa came to an end including the great war in the Congo peace came to Sudan and Angola the Ivory Coast so a lot of things happening and if you have a if you had a an international career at that time when globalization was accelerating you got to no a lot of people in different markets and both in crow and in my consulting business a key part of what it but we did was to keep us and Western corporations that were investing in emerging markets safe your credibility has been called in questions with this article and when I get to in a second what I want to ask you straight up is it possible to survive in the international theatre to the level that you're surviving if what they say is true if you if you're out scamming people or you're a bad actor pretty much over the the time as things get more transparent it's hard to survive right I mean talk about that dynamic because I just find it hard to believe that to be successful the way you are it's not a johnny-come-lately firms been multiple years operating vetted by the US government are people getting away in the shadows is it is is it hard because I almost imagine those are a lot of arbitrage I imagine ton of arbitrage that you that are happening there how hard or how easy it is to survive to be that shady and corrupt in this new era because with with with investigated with with intelligence communities with some terrific if you follow the money now Bitcoin that's a whole nother story but that's more today but to survive the eighties and nineties and to be where you are and what they're alleging I just what's your thoughts well to be able to attract capital and investors you have to have very high standards of governance and compliance because ultimately that's what investors are looking for and what investors will diligence when they make an investment with you so to carry the confidence of investors good standards of governance and compliance are of critical importance and raising venture capital and Europe is tough it's not like the US babe there's an abundance of venture capital available it's very hard Europe is under served by capital the venture capital invested in the US market is multiple of what we invest in Europe so you need to be even more focused on governance and compliance in Europe than you would be perhaps on other markets I think the second important point with Gmail John is that technology is brought about a lot of transparency and this is a major area of focus for our piece tech accelerator where we have startups who help to bring transparency to markets which previously did not have transparency for example one of the startups that came through our accelerator has brought complete transparency to the supply chain for subsistence farmers in Africa all the way to to the to the shelf of Walmart or a big grocery retailer in in the US or Europe and so I think technology is bringing a lot more more transparency we also have a global anti-corruption Innovation Challenge called shield in the cloud where we try and find and recognize the most innovative corporations governments and countries in the space so let's talk about the BBC story that hit 12 it says is a US military cloud the DoD Jedi contractor that's coming to award the eleventh hour safe from Russia fears over sensitive data so if this essentially the headline that's bolded says a technology company bidding for a Pentagon contract that's Amazon Web Services to store sensitive data has close partnerships with a firm linked to a sanctioned Russian oligarch the BBC has learned goes on to essentially put fear and tries to hang a story that says the national security of America is at risk because of c5u that's what we're talking about right now so so what's your take on this story I mean did you wake up and get an email said hey check out the BBC you're featured in and they're alleging that you have links to Russia and Amazon what Jon first I have to go I first have to do a disclosure I've worked for the BBC as an investigator when I was in Kroll and in fact I let the litigation support for the BBC in the biggest libel claim in British history which was post 9/11 when the BBC did a broadcast mistakenly accusing a mining company in Africa of laundering money for al-qaeda and so I represented the BBC in this case I was the manager hired you they hired me to delete this case for them and I'm I helped the BBC to reduce a libel claim of 25 million dollars to $750,000 so I'm very familiar with the BBC its integrity its standards and how it does things and I've always held the BBC in the highest regard and believed that the BBC makes a very important contribution to make people better informed about the world so when I heard about the story I was very disappointed because it seemed to me that the BBC have compromised the independence and the independence of the editorial control in broadcasting the story the reason why I say that is because the principal commentator in this story as a gentleman called John Wheeler who's familiar to me as a someone who's been trolling our firm on internet for the last year making all sorts of allegations the BBC did not disclose that mr. Weiler is a former Oracle executive the company that's protesting the Jedi bidding contract and secondly that he runs a lobbying firm with paid clients and that he himself often bid for government contracts in the US government context you're saying that John Wheeler who's sourced in the story has a quote expert and I did check him out I did look at what he was doing I checked out his Twitter he seems to be trying to socialise a story heavily first he needed eyes on LinkedIn he seems to be a consultant firm like a Beltway yes he runs a he runs a phone called in interoperability Clearing House and a related firm called the IT acquisition Advisory Council and these two organizations work very closely together the interoperability Clearing House or IC H is a consulting business where mr. Weiler acts for paying clients including competitors for this bidding contract and none of this was disclosed by the BBC in their program the second part of this program that I found very disappointing was the fact that the BBC in focusing on the Russian technology parks cocuwa did not disclose the list of skok of our partners that are a matter of public record on the Internet if you look at this list very closely you'll see c5 is not on there neither Amazon Web Services but the list of companies that are on there are very familiar names many of them competitors in this bidding process who acted as founding partners of skok about Oracle for example as recently as the 28th of November hosted what was described as the largest cloud computing conference in Russia's history at Skolkovo this is the this is the place which the BBC described as this notorious den of spies and at this event which Oracle hosted they had the Russian presidential administration on a big screen as one of their clients in Russia so some Oracle is doing business in Russia they have like legit real links to Russia well things you're saying if they suddenly have very close links with Skolkovo and so having a great many other Khayyam is there IBM Accenture cisco say Microsoft is saying Oracle is there so Skolkovo has a has a very distinguished roster of partners and if the BBC was fair and even-handed they would have disclosed us and they would have disclosed the fact that neither c5 nor Amazon feature as Corcovado you feel that the BBC has been duped the BBC clearly has been duped the program that they broadcasted is really a parlor game of six degrees of separation which they try to spun into a national security crisis all right so let's tell us John while ago you're saying John Wyler who's quoted in the story as an expert and by the way I read in the story my favorite line that I wanted to ask you on was there seems to be questions being raised but the question is being raised or referring to him so are you saying that he is not an expert but a plant for the story what's what's his role he's saying he works for Oracle or you think do you think he's being paid by Oracle like I can't comment on mr. Wireless motivation what strikes me is the fact that is a former Oracle executive what's striking is that he clearly on his website for the IC H identifies several competitors for the Jedi business clients and that all of this should have been disclosed by the BBC rather than to try and characterize and portray him as an independent expert on this story well AWS put out a press release or a blog post essentially hum this you know you guys had won it we're very clear and this I know it goes to the top because that's how Amazon works nothing goes out until it goes to the top which is Andy chassis and the senior people over there it says here's the relationship with c5 and ATS what school you use are the same page there but also they hinted the old guard manipulation distant I don't think they use the word disinformation campaign they kind of insinuate it and that's what I'm looking into I want to ask you are you part are you a victim of a disinformation campaign do you believe that you're not a victim being targeted with c5 as part of a disinformation campaign put on by a competitor to AWS I think what we've seen over the course of this last here is an enormous amount of disinformation around this contract and around this bidding process and they've a lot of the information that has been disseminated has not only not been factual but in some cases have been patently malicious well I have been covering Amazon for many many years this guy Tom Wyler is in seems to be circulating multiple reports invested in preparing for this interview I checked Vanity Fair he's quoted in Vanity Fair he's quoted in the BBC story and there's no real or original reporting other than those two there's some business side our article which is just regurgitating the Business Insider I mean the BBC story and a few other kind of blog stories but no real original yes no content don't so in every story that that's been written on this subject and as you say most serious publication have thrown this thrown these allegations out but in the in those few instances where they've managed to to publish these allegations and to leverage other people's credibility to their advantage and leverage other people's credibility for their competitive advantage John Wheeler has been the most important and prominent source of the allegations someone who clearly has vested commercial interests someone who clearly works for competitors as disclosed on his own website and none of this has ever been surfaced or addressed I have multiple sources have confirmed to me that there's a dossier that has been created and paid for by a firm or collection of firms to discredit AWS I've seen some of the summary documents of that and that is being peddled around to journalists we have not been approached yet I'm not sure they will because we actually know the cloud what cloud computing is so I'm sure we could debunk it by just looking at it and what they were putting fors was interesting is this an eleventh-hour a desperation attempt because I have the Geo a report here that was issued under Oracle's change it says there are six conditions why we're looking at one sole cloud although it's not a it's a multiple bid it's not an exclusive to amazon but so there's reasons why and they list six service levels highly specialized check more favorable terms and conditions with a single award expected cause of administration of multiple contracts outweighs the benefits of multiple awards the projected orders are so intricately related that only a single contractor can reasonably be perform the work meaning that Amazon has the only cloud that can do that work now I've reported on the cube and it's looking angle that it's true there's things that other clouds just don't have anyone has private they have the secret the secret clouds the total estimated value of the contract is less than the simplified acquisition threshold or multiple awards would not be in the best interest this is from them this is a government report so it seems like there's a conspiracy against Amazon where you are upon and in in this game collect you feel that collateral damage song do you do you believe that to be true collateral damage okay well okay so now the the John Wheeler guys so investigate you've been an investigator so you mean you're not you know you're not a retired into this a retired investigator you're retired investigated worked on things with Nelson Mandela Kroll Janet Reno Attorney General you've vetted by the United States government you have credibility you have relationships with people who have have top-secret clearance all kinds of stuff but I mean do you have where people have top-secret clearance or or former people who had done well we have we have the privilege of of working with a very distinguished group of senior national security leaders as operating partisan c5 and many of them have retained their clearances and have been only been able to do so because c5 had to pass through a very deep vetting process so for you to be smeared like this you've been in an investigative has you work at a lot of people this is pretty obvious to you this is like a oh is it like a deep state conspiracy you feel it's one vendor - what is your take and what does collateral damage mean to you well I recently spoke at the mahkum conference on a session on digital warfare and one of the key points I made there was that there are two things that are absolutely critical for business leaders and technology leaders at this point in time one we have to clearly say that our countries are worth defending we can't walk away from our countries because the innovation that we are able to build and scale we're only able to do because we live in democracies and then free societies that are governed by the rule of law the second thing that I think is absolutely crucial for business leaders in the technology community is to accept that there must be a point where national interest overrides competition it must be a point where we say the benefit and the growth and the success of our country is more important to us than making commercial profits and therefore there's a reason for us either to cooperate or to cease competition or to compete in a different way what might takes a little bit more simple than that's a good explanation is I find these smear campaigns and fake news and I was just talking with Kara Swisher on Twitter just pinging back and forth you know either journalists are chasing Twitter and not really doing the original courting or they're being fed stories if this is truly a smear campaign as being fed by a paid dossier then that hurts people when families and that puts corporate interests over the right thing so I think I a personal issue with that that's fake news that's just disinformation but it's also putting corporate inches over over families and people so I just find that to be kind of really weird when you say collateral damage earlier what did you mean by that just part of the campaign you personally what's what's your view okay I think competition which is not focused on on performance and on innovation and on price points that's competition that's hugely destructive its destructive to the fabric of innovation its destructive of course to the reputation of the people who fall in the line of sight of this kind of competition but it's also hugely destructive to national interest Andrae one of the key stories here with the BBC which has holes in it is that the Amazon link which we just talked about but there's one that they bring up that seems to be core in all this and just the connections to Russia can you talk about your career over the career from whether you when you were younger to now your relationship with Russia why is this Russian angle seems to be why they bring into the Russia angle into it they seem to say that c-5 Cable has connections they call deep links personal links into Russia so to see what that so c5 is a venture capital firm have no links to Russia c5 has had one individual who is originally of Russian origin but it's been a longtime Swiss resident and you national as a co investor into a enterprise software company we invested in in 2015 in Europe we've since sold that company but this individual Vladimir Kuznetsov who's became the focus of the BBC's story was a co investor with us and the way in which we structure our investment structures is that everything is transparent so the investment vehicle for this investment was a London registered company which was on the records of Companies House not an offshore entity and when Vladimir came into this company as a co investor for compliance and regulatory purposes we asked him to make his investment through this vehicle which we controlled and which was subject to our compliance standards and completely transparent and in this way he made this investment now when we take on both investors and Co investors we do that subject to very extensive due diligence and we have a very robust and rigorous due diligence regime which in which our operating partners who are leaders of great experience play an important role in which we use outside due diligence firms to augment our own judgment and to make sure we have all the facts and finally we also compare notes with other financial institutions and peers and having done that with Vladimir Kuznetsov when he made this one investment with us we reached the conclusion that he was acting in his own right as an independent angel investor that his left renova many years ago as a career executive and that he was completely acceptable as an investor so that you think that the BBC is making an inaccurate Association the way they describe your relationship with Russia absolutely the the whole this whole issue of the provenance of capital has become of growing importance to the venture capital industry as you and I discussed earlier with many more different sources of capital coming out of places like China like Russia Saudi Arabia other parts of the world and therefore going back again to you the earlier point we discussed compliance and due diligence our critical success factors and we have every confidence in due diligence conclusions that we reached about vladimir quits net source co-investment with us in 2015 so I did some digging on c5 razor bidco this was the the portion of the company in reference to the article I need to get your your take on this and they want to get you on the record on this because it's you mentioned I've been a law above board with all the compliance no offshore entities this is a personal investment that he made Co investment into an entity you guys set up for the transparency and compliance is that true that's correct no side didn't see didn't discover this would my my children could have found this this this company was in a transparent way on the records in Companies House and and Vladimir's role and investment in it was completely on the on the public record all of this was subject to financial conduct authority regulation and anti money laundering and no your client standards and compliance so there was no great big discovery this was all transparent all out in the open and we felt very confident in our due diligence findings and so you feel very confident Oh issue there at all special purpose none whatsoever is it this is classic this is international finance yes sir so in the venture capital industry creating a special purpose vehicle for a particular investment is a standard practice in c-five we focus on structuring those special-purpose vehicles in the most transparent way possible and that was his money from probably from Russia and you co invested into this for this purpose of doing these kinds of deals with Russia well we just right this is kind of the purpose of that no no no this so in 2015 we invested into a European enterprise software company that's a strategic partner of Microsoft in Scandinavian country and we invested in amount of 16 million pounds about at the time just more than 20 million dollars and subsequent in August of that year that Amir Kuznetsov having retired for nova and some time ago in his own right as an angel investor came in as a minority invest alongside us into this investment but we wanted to be sure that his investment was on our control and subject to our compliance standards so we requested him to make his investment through our special purpose vehicle c5 raised a bit co this investment has since been realized it's been a great success and this business is going on to do great things and serve great clients it c5 taking russian money no see if I was not taking Russian money since since the onset of sanctions onboarding Russian money is just impossible sanctions have introduced complexity and have introduced regulatory risk related to Russian capital and so we've taken a decision that we will not and we can't onboard Russian capital and sanctions have also impacted my investigative career sanctions have also completely changed because what the US have done very effectively is to make sanctions a truly global regime and in which ever country are based it doesn't really matter you have to comply with US sanctions this is not optional for anybody on any sanctions regime including the most recent sanctions on Iran so if there are sanctions in place you can't touch it have you ever managed Russian oligarchs money or interests at any time I've never managed a Russian oligarchs money at any point in time I served for a period of a year honest on the board of a South African mining company in which Renova is a minority invest alongside an Australian company called South 32 and the reason why I did this was because of my support for African entrepreneurship this was one of the first black owned mining companies in South Africa that was established with a British investment in 2004 this business have just grown to be a tremendous success and so for a period of a year I offered to help them on the board and to support them as they as they looked at how they can grow and scale the business I have a couple more questions Gabe so I don't know if you wanna take a break you want to keep let's take a break okay let's take a quick break do a quick break I think that's great that's the meat of it great job by the way fantastic lady here thanks for answering those questions the next section I want to do is compliment