>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS, and our community partners. >>Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 I'm John Farrow, your hosts. We've got the cube virtual. We're not there in person with remote this year, and we're excited to cover three weeks of wall-to-wall coverage. It's virtual events, so they don't over three weeks. We're in week three, day two. Um, and if you're watching this live on the platform tomorrow, Thursday at two o'clock Andy Jassy, we'll be live here on the cube with one-on-one with me to address all the hard questions, but here we're doing a day two of week three analysis with Jeremy Burton industry legend entrepreneur. Now the CEO of observe Inc, um, formerly the CMO of Dell technologies before that EMC has done a variety of ventures, seeing many ways of innovation, friend of the cube. Jeremy, thank you for coming on. >>Yeah, my pleasure. Great. Always great to be on the cube. >>Uh, great to have you on in particularly because, um, yesterday Verner, Vogel's talked a lot about observability and I noticed you got your observed shirt on, uh, observe Inc is your company's name, which is one of the many, uh, hot startups around observability, where you're making a business out of basically what he talked about yesterday. Um, and today's keynote. You had the extended cloud, uh, edge applications. You had bill Vass who leads up both edge and quantum. And then you had Rudy Valdez who, who talked a lot about, uh, evolution of cloud architecture. And of course you finally had, um, David Richardson, who is the VP of serverless. So you got edge. Quantum serverless architecture speaks to the sea change, Jeremy, and you have a good read on these big waves. When you look at serverless and then quantum, you look at, uh, edge, which is data, and you look at, um, all this coming together and on their architecture, Verner's keynote yesterday kind of makes sense. It's a systems architecture and this new observability trend, isn't like a point product. It's a broader concepts. You have a complete rethinking of distributed computing in the cloud. This is kinda what this Amazon feels like. What's your, what's your take? >>Yeah, it's a, it's a good observation. You know, the, the, the, the sort of punchline is, is that people are building applications differently. Um, so the, the, the, the, the technologies that people are using to build apps are different, um, the way in which they build applications is different. Um, the way folks released codes into production is different, and it stands to reason. Therefore, you're going to need a different approach, uh, when you want to troubleshoot these applications. So, uh, when you find, uh, you know, w w what is show when you want to find out what issues customers are having? So what, what we fell a couple of three years ago when we started to observe was that, um, uh, a new approach was required, what you're going to need to monitor your application. And, you know, 2020 is not the same as what you needed in 2015 or 2010. >>And we felt very strongly that this new wave was, was going to be called observability. It, it brings a tear to my eye to hear a Verner, talk about it, because as much as we observe, you know, believe that we can do big things in future. It's the big vendors today that can move markets. And so the Amazon and vulnerable particular talk about observability, I think it lends more credence to the topic. Um, we think that organizations should have observability teams. We think there should be a head of observability. And again, you know, Amazon and Dawson this, uh, I think means that there's a much stronger chance that that's going to happen. And they're going to start, start to shine a light on, I think, a topic that almost everybody needs to pay attention to as they build their next generation of applications. >>When you guys, I know you guys are launched and you have couple of campaign customers now and growing rapidly, um, well-funded, um, uh, get some great investors have found that the investors of snowflake also, um, invested in you guys. So they see this cloud trend LC snowflake when public, and I know you're on the board of snowflake as well. So, uh, you, you, you know, a little bit about what's going on with Amazon and the opportunity when you look at observability, okay, you're building a business around it. And again, you think about head of observability. That's not like a small thing when you make, put someone in charge of something. So why do you say that? I mean, what, I mean, you know, some would say, you know, Hey, it's a feature, not a company. I mean, this is two mindsets that are different. How do you address that? >>Yeah, the, the, the, the thing I'd say is, look, the number one job in America is, um, is a software engineer is writing code. The number two job is fixing it. And so, you know, th th the job think about that for a second. The job of fixing our applications is almost as big as the job of creating our applications. Uh, something has to change, right? I know the job of fixing cars is not as big as the auto industry. Why, because over time that industry has matured and there are better tools to diagnose cars. Uh, and so they're, they, they become easy to fix over time. We've, we've not made that leap with our applications. Um, the tools that the engineering team use to debug and troubleshoot their application are often still very different to what the dev ops team is using, um, which is very different to what maybe the SRE team is using. >>And so it's a huge problem in our industry. Um, really not being able to diagnose troubleshoot issues when they arise. It, it costs the industry, a fortune, it costs, you know, sort of in indirect wasted productivity of development teams, but it also costs in terms of customer experience. Um, I mean, you know, you and I both know is, look, if we're, if we're having a bad experience with maybe a new service that we're trying out online, w w we're probably going to go somewhere else. And so the there's never been like a more important time for people to invest in observing the entire environment, the entire customer experience, not only will you have happier customers, you might actually reduce the costs and improve the productivity in your engineering team as well. So I feel like the opportunity there is, is, is, is, is vast. Um, I also think longer term, um, it doesn't just apply to troubleshooting distributed applications. >>Um, I think the security systems are very related to the way we build software. Um, I mean, I think in, in, in the news in recent days, we've, we've come attuned, uh, uh, to, to software defects, um, or malware in software causing breaches and government agencies. Um, Hey, that, that could be anybody's software right there. Yeah. And so security has got a role to play in observability and the customer experience. It doesn't stop when they have a bad experience on the website. What if they complain? You know, what if a help desk ticket get, how do you track that? >>Yeah, I'm going to, I have a lot of questions for chassis tomorrow. One of them I'm going to ask him, and I want to get your thoughts on it. Cause you brought that up. And I think it's a key point, you know, building applications and supporting them and fixing them. It kind of reminds me of the old adage of, um, you know, you know, you gotta run it running the operation, 70% of the budget using to running it. If you look at what's happening and if you talk to customers and this is what I'm going to ask chassis tomorrow, Verner actually talked about, I on day two operations in his keynote. Yeah. I mean, this is Amazon they're, they're targeting builders. And so I talked to, um, a few other entrepreneurs, um, who were growing companies and some CIA CIOs and CEOs and the basic enterprises. >>They don't want to be building things like they, that's not their DNA. They don't build things like, that's not what they do. I mean, first of all, I love the builder mentality and with Amazon. Um, but they might be at a time where there might not be enough builders, Jeremy right out there. So you've got skill shortages and then ultimately are enterprises really builders. Yeah. They'll build something, but then they just run it it's. So, so at what point do they stop building or they build their own thing in the cloud and then they got to run it. So I think Amazon is going to shift quickly to day two operations, get bill, bill, bill run, run, run. >>Yeah. That's a great topic of conversation. I think what you sort of poking out is, is sort of the maturation of this digital age in the state that we're at. Um, I mean, if you, if you go back, you, you know, to, you know, 10, 10, 20 years, um, I mean, look at the mid nineties, um, there were a lot of people building custom applications, right? I mean, you know, it was innovation, it was all about building custom apps. And I think that golden era of application development whack that now, um, and, and customers in order to get competitive advantage, they are building their own applications. When you talk about digital transformation, what does that mean? Well, it means, you know, often a traditional company building a new digital experience for services that they've potentially offered in a physical way, uh, in the past. So make no mistake, P people are builders or they are writing code, they are becoming digital. >>I think what you'll find at some point as the industry's mature, some of these digital experience is become packaged. And so you can buy those off the shelf. And so there's less building required. But I think as we sit today, um, that there's probably more code been written in anger by more organizations that at any point in the last 30 years. And, and I think this is another reason why observability is so important, um, as you're building that code and as you're developing that customer experience, you want to be able to understand, um, where the issues are and, and, um, uh, like along the way, you don't want to wait until there's a, a big customer disaster on the day of you roll that, something to production before you start investigate. And you want to do that as you go. >>Yeah. And I think that's a kill. I do agree with you, by the way. I think the, there is a builder mentality, but it's probably right. But remember those days back in it, if you want to put our, our time machine hat on and go through the time machine is, you know, that was during the mainframe client server transition. And it was called spaghetti code. You know, it's like the monoliths were built and then it had to be supported and that became legacy. So I kind of see that happening today, where, um, people are moving to the cloud, they are building, but at some point you got to build your thing in the cloud. If I'm a company. And again, this isn't some dots trying to connect in real time. I got serverless, which is totally cool. I'm gonna have quantum has headroom for compute. >>I'm going to have, um, kind of a S a SOA service oriented architecture with web services, with observability. I'm gonna have all these modern apps great that, or run them. And I'm now I'm gonna shift them. Multiple clouds is so, you know, maybe the private cloud waves coming back, you're seeing telco clouds. You start to see these new tier. I won't say tier two clouds, but I mean, people will build their own cloud environment. There's no doubt as going to the cloud. And Steve Malania, Aviatrix kind of made this point yesterday in his analysis where he's like, he thinks private cloud will be back. I was just, it'll just be public cloud. People will build their own clouds and run them. >>Yeah. I feel well, what happens over time is, is the, the sort of line above which you would add value rises. So I kind of feel like, look, cloud is just going to the infrastructure. We can debate, you know, private cloud, public cloud. Is it a public cloud, or is it a private cloud served up by a public cloud provider? My view is, is look, all of that is, is, um, just going to be commodity, right? Um, it's going to be served up for an ever decreasing cost. And so then it's incumbent on organizations to innovate above that line. And, you know, 20 years ago, you know, we, we built our own data centers. Um, and now increasingly that, that seeming like a crazy idea. Um, and you know, now you can get almost all of your infrastructure from the cloud. The great thing is, I mean, look at observe. >>We have no people running data center operations, none, right? We have no people building a database, non, you know, we use snowflake in the cloud. It runs on AWS. We have, we have one dev ops, uh, engineer. And so all the people in the company right now, we're focused on adding value, helping people understand and analyze data, uh, above that line. And we just pay for a service level and, and look, uh, as time goes by, there's going to be more and more services and that line's going to rise. And so, you know, what, what I care about and what I think a lot of CEOs care about is are most of my resources innovating above that sort of value creation line, um, because that's what people are going to pay for in our business. And I think that's, what's going to represent you, you know, sort of value add for you, you know, organizations big and small. >>Yeah. That's a good point. I want to shift to the next topic and then we'll get into some observability questions I have for you and update on your company. Um, complexity has been a big theme. That's come out of all the conversations with analysts that have come on the cube, as you hear it with Amazon, a lot of undifferentiated, heavy lifting, being extracted away to your point about value layers and competing on value. Amazon continues to do that all great stuff, but some are saying, and we had said on the cube, yes, two days ago you put them complexity behind the curtain. It's still complexity, right? So, so complexity with the edge is highlighted. Uh, even though they got green, uh, I, um, edge core Greengrass, which has core thing, IOT core, a lot of cool things happening, but it's still not yet super easy. So complexity tends to slow things down became striction, what's your view on this? Because taming, the complexity seems to be a post COVID pandemic mandate for cloud journeys. What's your thing. >>Yeah, I totally agree. I think, I think in certainly you look organizations that have been in existence, but you know, 30, 40 years, or maybe even 10 years look at there's an amount of technical debt and complexity that you build up over time. Um, but even newer companies, um, the way that people are building modern distributed applications and in some respects is, is more complex than in days gone by, you know, microservices. Um, some of which maybe you own some of which maybe you don't, and what you've gotta be able to do is, is see the big picture, you know, w w when, when there's something in my code, but then when am I making a call out to maybe a third party microservice and, and that microservices bailing out on me, like people have got to see the big picture. And I think what hasn't been available as people have changed the architecture and their applications, there hasn't been an equivalent set of innovation or evolution in the tools that they use to manage that environment. And so you, you, you, you've got this sort of dichotomy of, uh, a better way for software developers to write code and deploy it into production microservices. But at the same time, you don't have good information and good tools to make sense of that complexity. >>That's great stuff. Jeremy Burton is here. He's the CEO of observe Inc cube, alumni, VIP cube alumni, by the way, has been on the cube every year, since the Q has been around 2010, when he took the new job as the CMO of EMC prior to being bought by Dell, Jeremy, you're a legend in the industry, certainly on as an executive and a marketer. And as an entrepreneur, um, I gotta ask you observe Inc, your company now, um, you're right in the middle of all this, you, you got a big bet going on. Could you share, in your opinion, your words, what is the big bet that you're making with observing? Uh, what are you betting on? How do you see the preferred future unfolding and where are you guys going to capture that value? >>Yes, I I'll big bat. Hey, uh, really is to take a new approach, um, in, in, in, in terms of enabling people to observe their systems, that the term observability actually goes back, uh, to a guy in control systems theory in the sixties. And then it's got quite a simple definition, which is, you know, being able to determine the, uh, I've been able to diagnose a system by the telemetry data that it emits. So let's look at the external outputs. And then based on that, can I determine the internal state of the application? And so from the get-go, we felt like observability was not about building another tool, right? We're not, you know, it's not about building another monitoring tool, a logging tool. Um, it's about analyzing data. And I, I was struck many years ago. Uh, I spent a bit of time with, with Andy McAfee, uh, from the sea sail lab at MIT. >>And he made a statement that I thought at the time was quite profound, which he said, look, everything's a matter of data. If you have enough data, you can solve any problem. And that stuck with me for a long time. And, um, you know, observe really what we do is we ingest vast quantities of telemetry data. We treat everything as events and we try and make sense of it. And the economics of the infrastructure now is such, that is you truly can ingest all the Alltel telemetry data and it's affordable, right? I mean, one of the wonderful things that Amazon has done is they've brought you, you know, very cheap, affordable storage. You can ingest all your data and keep it forever. Um, but, but now can you make sense of it? Well, you know, compute is pretty cheap these days and you've got amazing processing engines like snowflake. >>And so I was sense was that if we could allow folks to ingest all of this telemetry data process, that data and help people easily analyze that data, then they could find almost any problem that existed, uh, in their applications or in their infrastructure. So we really set out to create a data company, which I think is fundamentally different to, to really what everybody else is doing. And today we're troubleshooting distributed applications, but I think in future, we, my hope is that we can, we can help people analyze almost anything around their applications or infrastructure. >>And what's the use case problem statement that you're entering the market on? Is it just making sure microservices can be deployed as a Kubernetes? Is it managing containers? Is there a specific, um, customer adoption use case that you're focused on right now? >>Yeah, we've tried to target our ideal customer if you like has been the three or 4,000, uh, uh, SAS companies. Uh, we're, we're really focused on the U S right now, but three to 5,000 SAS companies, um, predominantly, uh, obviously running on AWS often, uh, Kubernetes infrastructure, but, you know, people who, uh, having a hard time, uh, understanding the complexity of the application that they've created, and they're having a hard time understanding, uh, the experience that their customers are having and tracking that back to root cause. So, you know, really helping those SAS companies troubleshoot their applications and having a better customer experience that's where the early customers are. And if we can do a good job in that area, I think we can, you know, over time, you know, start to take on some of the bigger companies and maybe some of the more established companies that are moving in this, this digital direction. >>Jeremy, thanks for sharing that. And I got one last set of questions for you around the industry, but before I get there, give a quick plug for observe. What are you guys looking to do hire, I mean, give a quick, uh, a PSA on what's going on with observed. >>Yeah, so we're, uh, the company is now what a rough and tough. About three years old, we got about 40 people. Uh we're well-funded by sort of Hill ventures. Uh, they were the original investors in, in snowflake. Um, and, um, yeah, I mean, we we've, we've well, more than doubled in size since the COVID lockdown began. We had about 15 people when that began. We've got almost 40 now. Um, and I would anticipate in the next year we're, we're probably going to double in size again, but, um, yeah, really the core focus in the company is, is understanding and analyzing vast quantities of data. And so anybody who is interested in, uh, that space look us up >>Mainly any areas, obviously engineering and the other areas okay. >>Near in all over. I mean, we, you know, w w w as you'll see, if you go to observing.com, we've got a pretty slick front end. Uh, we invested very early on in design and UX design. So we believe that you are, can be a differentiator. So we've got some amazing engineers on the front end. Uh, so going to can always do with the help there, but obviously, um, you know, there's a data processing platform here as well. Um, we, uh, we do run on top of snowflake. We, we do have a number of folks here who are very familiar, uh, you know, with the snowflake database and, and how to write efficiency equals. So, so front and backend. Um, we very soon, I think we'll be starting to expand the sales team. Um, we're really starting to get our initial set of customers and the feedback loop rule in rolling into engineering. And my hope would be, you know, probably early part of next year, we re we really start to nail the product market fit. Um, and we've got a huge release coming in the early part of next year where that the metrics and alerting functionality will be in the product. So, yeah, it's, it's sort of all systems go right now. >>Congratulations. Love to see the entrepreneurial journey. We'll keep an eye out for you and you're in a hot space. So we'll be riding, you'll be riding that wave, uh, question for you on the, um, just kind of the industry, uh, you're in the heart of Silicon Valley. Like I am honestly, I'm fellow Alto, you're up in the Hillsborough area. Um, I think you're in Hillsborough, right? That's where you, where you live. Um, San Francisco, the Valley, the pandemic pretty hard hit right now. People are sheltering in place, but still a lot of activity. Um, what are you hearing in, um, in, in the VC circles, startup circles, as everyone looks at coming out of the pandemic and you look at Amazon and you look at what snowflake has done. I mean, snowflake was built on top of Amazon competing against Redshift. Um, okay. They were hugely successful at doing that. So there's kind of this new playbook emerging. What are, what are people talking about? What's the scuttlebutt. >>Yeah. I mean, clearly TAC has done very well throughout what has been, you know, like just a terrible environment. Um, I think both kind of socially and economically, and I think what's going on in the stock market right now is probably not reflective of the, of the economic situation. And I think a lot of the indices are dominated by tech companies. So you, if you're not careful, you can get a little bit of a false read. Um, but look, what is undisputed is, is that the world is going to become more digital, more tech centric than, than less. Um, so I think there is a very, very bright future, you know, for tech, um, that there is certainly plenty of VC money, um, available. Um, you know, that is not really changed materially in the last year. Um, so if you have a good idea, if you're on one of these major trends, I think that there is a very good chance that you can get the company funded. >>Um, and you know, our, our expectation is that, you know, next year, obviously industries are going to return to work that have been dominant maybe for the last six, nine months. And so some parts of the economy should pick up again, but I would also tell you, I think certain, uh, sort of habits are not going to die. I mean, I think more things are going to be done online and we've gotten used to that way of working and, and you know, what, not, some of it is measurable. I don't know about cocktails over zoom, but working with customers, um, in some respects is easier because they're not traveling, we're not traveling. So we both have more time. Uh, it's sometimes easy to get meetings with people that you would never get. Now. Now, can you do an efficient sales process, education proof of concept? You know, those processes maybe have to grow up a little bit to be taken online, but I think the certain parts of the last, maybe six to nine months that we don't want to throw away and go back to the way we were doing it, because I think, you know, maybe this way of doing it is, is more efficient. >>What do you think about the, uh, entrepreneurial journeys out there? Obviously, um, Amazon we're here covering re-invent is really kind of, you know, building a massive compute engine. They've got higher level services and, you know, I've been speculating for years. I think snowflake is the first kind of big sign. That points to kind of what I said five years ago, which is there's going to be an opportunity for these other clouds as specialty clouds. I called them might be the wrong word, but snowflake basically built on top of Amazon, you know, most valuable company ever on wall street, uh, IPO on someone else's cloud. So is that a playbook? I mean, is that a move? I mean, this is kind of like a new thing. >>Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, I, I feel like on databases, I've got a lot of history on management, Oracle almost 10 years. And you know, what snowflake does they did was they, they rearchitected the database explicitly for the cloud. I mean, you can run Oracle on the cloud, but, but it, but it doesn't do things the way that snowflake does it. Right. I mean, snowflake uses commodity storage. It uses S3 it's elastic. And so when you're not using it, you're not paying it. And these things sound very simple and very obvious now, which is I think what, what, what the genius of the founders, you know, Ben Warren and Tre, uh, work, and, and I think there will be other costs, you know, categories of infrastructure that will get rearchitected and reinvented for the cloud. And, you know, I've got equally big opportunities. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, I think the model, I believe firmly that the model is if you're a startup, you don't need to waste a lot of time, like reinventing the wheel on data center, infrastructure and databases, and a lot of the services that you would use to construct an application. >>You, you, you can start, you know, if, if the building that you're trying to build is like 12 floors, you can start at the eighth or ninth floor. Um, you know, I've, I've got like what three or 400 quality engineers at snowflake that are building our database. I don't, I don't need to do that. I can just piggyback on top of what they've done and add value. And, you know, the, the, the beautiful thing, you know, now, if you're a business out there thinking of, of, of, of becoming digital and reinventing yourself, or you're a startup just getting going, there's a lot of stuff you just don't have to build anymore. You just don't even have to think about it. >>Yeah. This is the new program of bull internet. It's internet, truly 2.0 or 3.0, whatever 4.0, a complete reset of online. And I think the pandemic, as you pointed out on many cube interviews and Andy Jassy send his keynote is on full display right now. And I think the smart money and smart entrepreneurs are going to see the opportunities. Okay. >>Yeah. It comes back to ideas and a great, I mean, I've always been a product person. Um, but look at great idea, a great product idea and a great product idea that, that capitalizes on the big trends in the industry. I think there's always going to be funding for those kinds of things. I don't know a lot about the consumer world I've always worked in, in B2B, but, um, you know, the kind of things that you're going to be able to do in future. I mean, think about it. If storage is essentially free and compute is essentially free. Just imagine what you could do, right. Jeremy, >>This is the new consumer. Get out. Let's understand that. Finally, B2B is the new consumer enterprise is hot. I was, again, it was riffing on this all week. All the things going on in enterprise is complex is now the new consumers now all connected. It's all one thing. The consumerization of it, the condition of computing has happened. It's going on. So you're a leader. Thank you for coming on. Great to see you as always, um, say hi to your family and stay safe. >>Yeah, you too. Thanks for the invite. Always, always a pleasure. >>Jeremy Burton breaking down the analysis of day two of week three of re-invent coverage. I'm John furry with the cube virtual. We're not in person anymore. Virtualization has allowed us to do more interviews over 110 interviews so far for re-invent and tomorrow, Thursday at two o'clock, Andy Jassy will spend 30 minutes with me here on the cube, looking back at re-invent the highs, the lows, and what's next for Amazon web services. I'm chef Aria. Thanks for watching.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes. Live coverage for ADFS reinvent 2020 I'm John Ford with the cube, your host. We are the cube virtual. We're not there in person this year. We're remote with the pandemic and we're here for the keynote analysis for Verner Vogels, and we've got some great analysts on and friends of the cube cube alumni is Rob Hirschfeld is the founder and CEO of Rakin a pioneer in the dev ops space, as well as early on on the bare metal, getting on the whole on-premise he's seen the vision and I can tell you, I've talked to him many times over the years. He's been on the same track. He's on the right wave frog. Great to have you on. I'm going to have to start Veatch, come on. Y'all come on as well, but great to see you. Thanks, pleasure to be here. Um, so the keynote with Verna was, you know, he's like takes you on a journey, you know, and, and virtual is actually a little bit different vibe, but I thought he did an exceptional job of stage layout and some of the virtual stage craft. Um, but what I really enjoyed the most was really this next level, thinking around systems thinking, right, which is my favorite topic, because, you know, we've been saying, going back 10 years, the cloud is just, here's a computer, right. It's operating system. And so, um, this is the big thing. This is, what's your reaction to the keynote. >>Wow. So I think you're right. This is one of the challenges with what Amazon has been building is it's, you know, it is a lock box, it's a service. So you don't, you don't get to see behind the scenes. You don't really get to know how they run these services. And what, what I see happening out of all of those pieces is they've really come back and said, we need to help people operate this platform. And, and that shouldn't be surprising to anyone. Right? Last couple of years, they've been rolling out service, service service, all these new things. This talk was really different for Verner's con normal ones, because he wasn't talking about whizzbang new technologies. Um, he was really talking about operations, um, you know, died in the wool. How do we make the system easier to use? How do we expose things? What assistance can we have in, in building applications? Uh, in some cases it felt like, uh, an application performance monitoring or management APM talk from five or even 10 years ago, um, canaries, um, you know, Canary deployments, chaos engineering, observability, uh, sort of bread and butter, operational things. >>We have Savi Joel, who's a influencer cloud computing Xtrordinair dev ops guru. Uh, we don't need dev ops guru from Amazon. We got Sarpy and prop here. So it'd be great to see you. Um, you guys had a watch party. Um, tell me what the reaction was, um, with, of the influencers in the cloud or ADI out there that were looking at Vernon's announcement, because it does attract a tech crowd. What was your take and what was the conversation like? >>Yeah, we kinda geeked out. Um, we had a watch party and we were commenting back and forth, like when we were watching it. I think that the general consensus is that the complexity of AWS stack itself is, is increasing. Right. And they have been focused on developers a lot, I think a lot longer than they needed to be a little bit. I think, uh, now they need to focus on the operations. Like we, we are, we all love dev ops talks and it's very fancy and it's very modern way of building software. But if you think deep down that, like once we developed software traditionally and, and also going forward, I think we need to have that separation. Once you develop something in production, it's, it's, it's operating right. Once you build a car, you're operating car, you're not building car all the time. Right? >>So same with the software. Once you build a system, it should have some stability where you're running it, operating it for, for a while, at least before you touch it or refactoring all that stuff. So I think like building and operating at the same time, it's very good for companies like Amazon, AWS, especially, uh, and, and Google and, and, and Facebook and all those folks who are building technology because they are purely high-tech companies, but not for GM Ford Chrysler or Kaiser Permanente, which is healthcare or a school district. The, they, they need, need to operate that stuff once it's built. So I think, uh, the operationalization of cloud, uh, well, I think take focus going forward a lot more than it has and absorbable Deanna, on a funny note, I said, observability is one of those things. I, now these days, like, like, you know, and the beauty pageants that every contestant say is like, whatever question you asked, is it Dora and the answer and say at the end world peace, right? >>And that's a world peace term, which is the absorbability. Like you can talk about all the tech stuff and all that stuff. And at the end you say observability and you'll be fine. So, um, what I'm making is like observability is, and was very important. And when I was talking today about like how we can enable the building of absorbability into this new paradigm, which is a microservices, like where you pass a service ID, uh, all across all the functions from beginning to the end. Right. And so, so you can trace stuff. So I think he was talking, uh, at that level. Yeah. >>Let me, let's take an observer Billy real quick. I have a couple of other points. I want to get your opinions on. He said, quote, this three, enabling major enabling technologies, powering observability metrics, logging and tracing here. We know that it would, that is of course, but he didn't take a position. If you look at all the startups out there that are sitting there, the next observability, there's at least six that I know of. I mean, that are saying, and then you got ones that are kind of come in. I think signal effects was one. I liked, like I got bought by Splunk and then is observability, um, a feature, um, or is it a company? I mean, this is something that kind of gets talked about, right? I mean, it's, I mean, is it really something you can build a business on or is it a white space? That's a feature that gets pulled in what'd you guys react to that? >>So this is a platform conversation and, and, you know, one of the things that we've been having conversations around recently is this idea of platforms. And, and, you know, I've been doing a lot of work on infrastructure as code and distributed infrastructure and how people want infrastructure to be more code, like, which is very much what, what Verna was, was saying, right? How do we bring development process capabilities into our infrastructure operations? Um, and these are platform challenges. W what you're asking about from, uh, observability is perspective is if I'm running my code in a platform, if I'm running my infrastructure as a platform, I actually need to understand what that platform is doing and how it's making actions. Um, but today we haven't really built the platforms to be very transparent to the users. And observability becomes this necessary component to fix all the platforms that we have, whether they're Kubernetes or AWS, or, you know, even going back to VMware or bare metal, if you can't see what's going on, then you're operating in the blind. And that is an increasingly big problem. As we get more and more sophisticated infrastructure, right? Amazon's outage was based on systems can being very connected together, and we keep connecting systems together. And so we have to be able to diagnose and troubleshoot when those connections break or for using containers or Lambdas. The code that's running is ephemeral. It's only around for short periods of time. And if something's going wrong in it, it's incredibly hard to fix it, >>You know? And, and also he, you know, he reiterated his whole notion of log everything, right? He kept on banging on the drum on that one, like log everything, which is actually a good practice. You got to log everything. Why wouldn't you, >>I mean, how you do, but they don't make it easy. Right? Amazon has not made it easy to cross, cross, and, uh, connect all the data across all of those platforms. Right? People think of Amazon as one thing, but you know, the people who are using it understand it's actually a collection of services. And some of those are not particularly that tied together. So figuring out something that's going on across, across all of your service bundles, and this isn't an Amazon problem, this is an industry challenge. Especially as we go towards microservices, I have to be able to figure out what happened, even if I used 10 services, >>Horizontal, scalability argument. Sorry. Do you want to get your thoughts on this? So the observability, uh, he also mentioned theory kind of couched it before he went into the talk about systems theory. I'm like, okay. Let's, I mean, I love systems, and I think that's going to be the big wake up call here for the next 10 years. That's a systems mindset. And I think, you know, um, Rob's right. It's a platform conversation. When you're thinking about an operating system or a system, it has consequences when things change, but he talked about controllability versus, uh, observability and kinda T that teed up the, well, you can control systems controls, or you can have observability, uh, what's he getting at in all of this? What's he trying to say, keep, you know, is it a cover story? Is it this, is it a feature? What was the, what was the burner getting at with all this? >>Uh, I, I, I believe they, they understand that, that, uh, that all these services are very sort of micro in nature from Amazon itself. Right. And then they are not tied together as Rob said earlier. And they, he addressed that. He, uh, he, uh, announced that service. I don't know the name of that right now of problem ahead that we will gather all the data from all the different places. And then you can take a look at all the data coming from different services at this at one place where you have the service ID passed on to all the servers services. You have to do that. It's a discipline as a software developer, you have to sort of adhere to even in traditional world, like, like, you know, like how you do logging and monitoring and tracing, um, it's, it's your creativity at play, right? >>So that's what software is like, if you can pass on, I was treating what they gave an example of Citrix, uh, when, when, when you are using like tons of applications with George stream to your desktop, through Citrix, they had app ID concept, right? So you can trace what you're using and all that stuff, and you can trace the usage and all that stuff, and they can, they can map that log to that application, to that user. So you need that. So I think he w he was talking about, I think that's what he's getting too. Like we have to, we have to sort of rethink how we write software in this new Microsoft, uh, sort of a paradigm, which I believe it, it's a beautiful thing. Uh, as long as we can manage it, because Microsoft is, are spread across like, um, small and a smaller piece of software is everywhere, right? So the state, how do we keep the state intact? How do we, um, sort of trace things? Uh, it becomes a huge problem if we don't do it right? So it it's, um, it's a little, this is some learning curve for most of the developers out there. So 60 dash 70% >>Rob was bringing this up, get into this whole crash. And what is it kind of breakdown? Because, you know, there's a point where you don't have the Nirvana of true horizontal scalability, where you might have microservices that need to traverse boundaries or systems, boundaries, where, or silos. So to Rob's point earlier, if you don't see it, you can't measure it or you can't get through it. How do you wire services across boundaries? Is that containers, is that, I mean, how does this all work? How do you guys see that working? I just see a train wreck there. >>It's, it's a really hard problem. And I don't think we should underestimate it because everything we toast talked about sounds great. If you're in a single AWS region, we're talking about distributed infrastructure, right? If you think about what we've been seeing, even more generally about, you know, edge sites, uh, colo on prem, you know, in cloud multi-region cloud, all these things are actually taking this one concept and you're like, Oh, I just want to store all the log data. Now, you're not going to store all your log data in one central location anymore. That in itself, as a distributed infrastructure problem, where I have to be able to troubleshoot what's going on, you know, and know that the logs are going to the right place and capture the data, that's really important. Um, and one of the innovations in this that I think is going to impact the industry over the next couple of years is the addition of more artificial intelligence and machine learning, into understanding operations patterns and practices. >>And I think that that's a really significant industry trend where Amazon has a distinct advantage because it's their systems and it's captive. They can analyze and collect a lot of data across very many customers and learn from those things and program systems that learn from those things. Um, and so the way you're going to keep up with this is not by logging more and more data, but by doing exactly what we're talking through, which was how do I analyze the patterns with machine learning so that I can get predictive analysis so that I can understand something that looks wrong and then put people on checking it before it goes wrong. >>All right, I gotta, I gotta bring up something controversial. I can't hold back any longer. Um, you know, Mark Zuckerberg said many, many years ago, all the old people, they can do startups, they're too old and you gotta be young and hungry. You gotta do that stuff. If we're talking systems theory, uh, automated meta reasoning, evolvable systems, resilience, distributed computing, isn't that us old guys that have actually have systems experience. I mean, if you're under the age of 30, you probably don't even know what a system is. Um, and, or co coded to the level of systems that we use to code. And I'm putting my quote old man kind of theory, only kidding, by the way on the 30. But my point is there is a generation of us that had done computer science in the, in the eighties and seventies, late seventies, maybe eighties and nineties, it's all it was, was systems. It was a systems world. Now, when you have a software world, the aperture is increasing in terms of software, are the younger generation of developers system thinkers, or have we lost that art, uh, or is it doesn't matter? What do you guys think? >>I, I think systems thinking comes with age. I mean, that's, that's sort of how I think, I mean, like I take the systems thinking a greater sort of, >>Um, world, like state as a system country, as a system and everything is a system, your body's a system family system, so it's the same way. And then what impacts the system when you operated internal things, which happened within the system and external, right. And we usually don't talk about the economics and geopolitics. There's a lot of the technology. Sometimes we do, like we have, I think we need to talk more about that, the data sovereignty and all that stuff. But, but even within the system, I think the younger people appreciate it less because they don't have the, they don't see, um, software taught like that in the universities. And, and, and, and by these micro micro universities now online trainings and stuff like sweaty, like, okay, you learn this thing and you're good at it saying, no, no, it's not like that. So you've got to understand the basics and how the systems operate. >>Uh, I'll give you an example. So like we were doing the, the, the client server in early nineties, and then gradually we moved more towards like having ESB enterprise services, bus where you pass a state, uh, from one object to another, and we can bring in the heterogeneous, uh, languages. This thing is written in Java. This is in.net. This is in Python. And then you can pass it through that. Uh, you're gonna make a state for, right. And that, that was contained environment. Like ESBs were contained environment. We were, I, I wrote software for ESPs myself at commerce one. And so like, we, what we need today is the ESP equallant in the cloud. We don't have that. >>Rob, is there a reverse ageism developers? I mean, if you're young, you might not have systems. What do you think? I, I don't agree with that. I actually think that the nature of the systems that we're programming forces people into more distributed infrastructure thinking the platforms we have today are much better than they were, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, um, in the sense that I can do distributed infrastructure programming without thinking about it very much anymore, but you know, people know, they know how to use cloud. They know how to use a big platform. They know how to break things into microservices. I, I think that these are inherent skills that people need to think about that you're you're right. There is a challenge in that, you know, you get very used to the platform doing the work for you, and that you need to break through it, but that's an experiential thing, right? >>The more experienced developers are going to have to understand what the platforms do. Just like, you know, we used to have to understand how registers worked inside of a CPU, something I haven't worried about for a long, long time. So I, I don't think it's that big of a problem. Um, from, from that perspective, I do think that the thing that's really hard is collaboration. And so, you know, it's, it's hard people to people it's hard inside of a platform. It's hard when you're an Amazon size and you've been rolling out services all over the place and now have to figure out how to fit them all together. Um, and that to me is, is a design problem. And it's more about being patient and letting things, uh, mature. If anything might take away from this keynote is, you know, everybody asked Amazon to take a breath and work on usability and, and cross cross services synchronizations rather than, than adding more services into the mix. And that's, >>That's a good point. I mean, again, I bring up the conversation because it's kind of the elephant in the room and I make it being controversial to make a point there. So our view, because, you know, I interviewed Judy Estrin who helped found the internet with Vince Cerf. She's well-known for her contributions for the TCP IP protocol. Andy Besta Stein. Who's the, who's the Rembrandt of motherboards. But as Pat Gelsinger, CEO of VMware, I would say both said to me on the cube that without systems thinking, you don't understand consequences of when things change. And we start thinking about this microservices conversation, you start to hear a little bit of that pattern emerging, where those systems, uh, designs matter. And then you have, on the other hand, you have this modern application framework where serverless takes over. So, you know, Rob back to your infrastructure as code, it really isn't an either, or they're not mutually exclusive. You're going to have a set of nerds and geeks engineering systems to make them better and easier and scalable. And then you're going to have application developers that need to just make it work. So you start to see the formation of kind of the, I won't say swim lanes, but I mean, what do you guys think about that? Because you know, Judy and, um, Andy better sign up. They're kind of right. Uh, >>Th th the enemy here, and we're seeing this over and over again is complexity. And, and the challenge has been, and serverless is like, those people like, Oh, I don't have to worry about servers anymore because I'm dealing with serverless, which is not true. What you're doing is you're not worrying about infrastructure as much, but you, the complexity, especially in a serverless infrastructure where you're pulling, you know, events from all sorts of things, and you have one, one action, one piece of code, you know, triggering a whole bunch of other pieces of code in a decoupled way. We are, we are bringing so much complexity into these systems, um, that they're very hard to conceive of. Um, and AIML is not gonna not gonna address that. Um, I think one of the things that was wonderful about the setting, uh, in the sugar factory and at all of that, you know, sort of very mechanical viewpoint, you know, when you're actually connecting all things together, you can see it. A lot of what we've been building today is almost impossible to observe. And so the complexity price that we're paying in infrastructure is going up exponentially and we can't sustain infrastructures like that. We have to start leveling that in, right? >>Your point on the keynote, by the way, great call out on, on the, on the setting. I thought that was very clever. So what do you think about this? Because as enterprises go through this transformation, one of the big conversations is the solution architecture, the architecture of, um, how you lay all this out. It's complexity involved. Now you've got on premise system, you've got cloud, you've got edge, which you're hearing more and more local processing, disconnected systems, managing it at the edge with visualization. We're going to hear more about that, uh, with Dirk, when he comes on the queue, but you know, just in general as a practitioner out there, what, what's, what's your, what do you see people getting their arms around, around this, this keynote? What do they, what's your thoughts? >>Yeah, I, I think, uh, the, the pattern I see emerging is like, or in the whole industry, regardless, like if you put, when does your sign is that like, we will write less and less software in-house I believe that SAS will emerge. Uh, and it has to, I mean, that is the solution to kill the complexity. I believe, like we always talk about software all the time and we, we try to put this in the one band, like it's, everybody's dining, same kind of software, and they have, I'm going to complexity and they have the end years and all that stuff. That's not true. Right. If you are Facebook, you're writing totally different kind of software that needs to scale differently. You needs a lot of cash and all that stuff, right. Gash like this and cash. Well, I ain't both gases, but when you are a mid size enterprise out there in the middle, like fly over America, what, uh, my friend Wayne says, like, we need to think about those people too. >>Like, how do they drive software? What kind of software do they write? Like how many components they have in there? Like they have three tiers of four tiers. So I think they're a little more simpler software for internal use. We have to distinguish these applications. I always talk about this, like the systems of record systems of differentiation, the system of innovation. And I think cloud will do great. And the newer breed of applications, because you're doing a lot of, a lot of experimentation. You're doing a lot of DevOps. You have two pizza teams and all that stuff, which is good stuff we talk about, well, when you go to systems of record, you need stability. You need, you need some things which is operational. You don't want to touch it again, once it's in production. Right? And so the, in between that, that thing is, I think that's, that's where the complexity lies the systems are, which are in between those systems of record and system or innovation, which are very new Greenfield. That, that's what I think that's where we need to focus, uh, our, um, platform development, um, platform as a service development sort of, uh, dollars, if you will, as an industry, I think Amazon is doing that right. And, and Azura is doing that right to a certain extent too. I, I, I, I worry a little bit about, uh, uh, Google because they're more tilted towards the data science, uh, sort of side of things right now. >>Well, Microsoft has the most visibility into kind of the legacy world, but Rob, you're shaking your head there. Um, on his comment, >>You know, I, I, you know, I, I watched the complexity of all these systems and, and, you know, I'm not sure that sass suffocation of everything that we're doing is leading to less is pushing the complexity behind a curtain so that you, you, you can ignore the man behind the curtain. Um, but at the end of the day, you know what we're really driving towards. And I think Amazon is accelerating this. The cloud is accelerating. This is a new set of standard operating processes and procedures based on automation, based on API APIs, based on platforms, uh, that ultimately, I think people could own and could come back to how we want to operate it. When I look at what we w we were just shown with the keynote, you know, it was an, is things that application performance management and monitoring do. It's, it's not really Amazon specific stuff. There's no magic beans that Amazon is growing operational knowledge, you know, in Amazon, greenhouses that only they know how to consume. This is actually pretty block and tackle stuff. Yeah. And most people don't need to operate it at that type of scale to be successful. >>It's a great point. I mean, let's, let's pick up on that for the last couple of minutes we have left. Cause I think that's a great, great double-down because you're thinking about the mantra, Hey, everything is a service, you know, that's great for business model. You know, you hand it over to the techies. They go, wait a minute. What does that actually mean? It's harder. But when I talk to people out there and you hear people talking about everything is a service or sanctification, I do agree. I think you're putting complexity behind the curtain, but it's kind of the depends answer. So if you're going to have everything as a service, the common thesis is it has to have support automation everywhere. You got to automate things to make things sassiphy specified, which means you need five nines, like factory type environments. They're not true factories, but Rob, to your point, if you're going to make something a SAS, it better be Bulletproof. Because if you're, if you're automating something, it better be automated, right? You can measure things all you want, but if it's not automated, like a, like a, >>And you have no idea what's going on behind the curtains with some of these, these things, right. Especially, you know, I know our business and you know, our customers' businesses, they're, they're reliant on more and more services and you have no idea, you know, the persistence that service, if they're going to break an API, if they're going to change things, a lot of the stuff that Amazon is adding here defensively is because they're constantly changing the wheels on the bus. Um, and that is not bad operational practice. You should be resilient to that. You should have processes that are able to be constantly updated and CICB pipelines and, you know, continuous deployments, you shouldn't expect to, to, you know, fossilize your it environment in Amber, and then hope it doesn't have to change for 10 years. But at the same time, we'll work control your house. >>That's angle about better dev ops hypothetical, like a factory, almost metaphor. Do you care if the cars are being shipped down the assembly line and the output works and the output, if you have self-healing and you have these kinds of mechanisms, you know, you could have do care. The services are being terminated and stood up and reformed as long as the factory works. Right? So again, it's a complexity level of how much it, or you want to bite off and chew or make work. So to me, if it's automated, it's simple, did it work or not? And then the cost of work to be, what's your, what's your angle on this? Yeah. >>I believe if you believe in systems thinking, right. You have to believe in, um, um, the concept of, um, um, Oh gosh, I'm losing over minor. Um, abstraction. Right? So abstraction is your friend in software. Abstraction is your friend anyways, right? That's how we, humans pieces actually make a lot more progress than any other sort of living things here in this world. So that's why we are smart. We can abstract complexity behind the curtains, right? We, we can, we can keep improving, like from the, the, you know, wooden cart to the car, to the, to the plane, to the other, like, we, we, we have this, like when, when we see we are flying these airplanes, like 90% of the time they're on autopilot, like that's >>Hi, hiding my attractions is, is about evolution. Evolvable software term. He said, it's true. All right, guys, we have one minute left. Um, let's close this out real quick. Each of you give a closing statement on what you thought of the keynote and Verner's talk prop, we'll start with you. >>Uh, you know, as always, it's a perf keynote, uh, very different this year because it was so operationally focused and using the platform and, and helping people run their, their, off their applications and software better. And I think it's an interesting turn that we've been waiting for for Amazon, uh, to look at, you know, helping people use their own platform more. Um, so, uh, refreshing change and I think really powerful and well delivered. I really did like the setting >>Great shopping. And when we found, I found out today, that's Teresa Carlson is now running training and certification. So I'm expecting that to be highly awesomely accelerated a success there. Sorry, what's your take real quick on burners talk, walk away. Keynote thoughts. >>I, I, I think it was what I expected it to be like, he focused on the more like a software architecture kind of discussion. And he focused this time a little more on the ops side and the dev side, which I think they, they are pivoting a little bit, um, because they, they want to sell more AWS stuff to us, uh, to the existing enterprises. So I think, um, that was, um, good. Uh, I wish at the end, he said, not only like, go, go build, but also go build and operate. So can, you know, they all say, go build, build, build, but like, who's going to operate this stuff. Right. So I think, um, uh, I will see a little shift, I think, going forward, but we were talking earlier, uh, during or watch party that I think, uh, going forward, uh, AWS will open start open sourcing the commoditized version of their cloud, which have been commoditized by other vendors and gradually they will open source it so they can keep the hold onto the enterprises. I think that's what my take is. That's my prediction is >>Awesome and want, I'll make sure I'm at your watch party next time. Sorry. I missed it. Nobody's taking notes. Try and prepare. Sorry, Rob. Thanks for coming on and sharing awesome insight and expertise to experts in cloud and dev ops. I know them. And can firstly vouch for their awesomeness? Thanks for coming on. I think Verner can verify what I thought already was reporting Amazon everywhere. And if you connect the dots, this idea of reasoning, are we going to have smarter cloud? That's the next conversation? I'm John for your host of the cube here, trying to get smarter with Aus coverage. Thanks to Robin. Sarvi becoming on. Thanks for watching.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Hi, this is Dave Volante. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuous coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, the virtual version of the cube and reinvent. I'm here with David foyer. Who's the CTO Wiki Bon, and we're going to break down today's infrastructure keynote, which was headlined by Peter DeSantis. David. Good to see you. Good to see you. So David, we have a very tight timeframe and I just want to cover a couple of things. Something that I've learned for many, many years, working with you is the statement. It's all about recovery. And that really was the first part of Peter's discussion today. It was, he laid out the operational practices of AWS and he talked a lot about, he actually had some really interesting things up there. You know, you use the there's no compression algorithm for experience, but he talked a lot about availability and he compared AWS's availability philosophy with some of its competitors. >>And he talked about generators being concurrent and maintainable. He got, he took it down to the batteries and the ups and the thing that impressed me, most of the other thing that you've taught me over the years is system thinking. You've got to look at the entire system. That one little component could have Peter does emphasis towards a huge blast radius. So what AWS tries to do is, is constrict that blast radius so he can sleep at night. So non-disruptive replacements of things like batteries. He talked a lot about synchronous versus asynchronous trade-offs and it was like, kind of async versus sync one-on-one synchronous. You got latency asynchronous, you got your data loss to exposure. So a lot of discussions around that, but what was most interesting is he CA he compared and contrasted AWS's philosophy on availability zones, uh, with the competition. And he didn't specifically call out Microsoft and Google, but he showed some screenshots of their websites and the competition uses terms like usually available and generally available this meaning that certain regions and availability zone may not be available. That's not the case with AWS, your thoughts on that. >>They have a very impressive track record, uh, despite the, a beta the other day. Um, but they've got a very impressive track record. I, I think there is a big difference, however, between a general purpose computing and, uh, mission critical computing. And when you've got to bring up, uh, databases and everything else like that, then I think there are other platforms, uh, which, uh, which in the longterm, uh, AWS in my view, should be embracing that do a better job in mission critical areas, uh, in terms of bringing things up and not using data and recovery. So that's, that's an area which I think AWS will need to partner with in the past. >>Yeah. So, um, the other area of the keynote that was critical was, um, he spent a lot of time on custom Silicon and you and I have talked about this a lot, of course, AWS and Intel are huge partners. Uh, but, but we know that Intel owns its own fabs, uh, it's competitors, you know, we'll outsource to the other, other manufacturers. So Intel is motivated to put as much function on the real estate as possible to create general purpose processors and, and get as much out of that real estate as they possibly can. So what AWS has been been doing, and they certainly didn't throw Intel under the bus. They were very complimentary and, and friendly, but they also lay it out that they're developing a number of components that are custom Silicon. They talked about the nitro controllers, uh, inferential, which is, you know, specialized chips around, around inference to do things like PI torch, uh, and TensorFlow. >>Uh, they talked about training them, you know, the new training ship for training AI models or ML models. They spent a lot of time on Gravatar, which is 64 bit, like you say, everything's 64 bit these days, but it's the arm processor. And so, you know, they, they didn't specifically mention Moore's law, but they certainly taught, they gave, uh, a microprocessor one Oh one overview, which I really enjoyed. They talked about, they didn't specifically talk about Moore's law, but they talked about the need to put, put on more, more cores, uh, and then running multithreaded apps and the whole new programming models that, that brings out. Um, and, and, and basically laid out the case that these specialized processors that they're developing are more efficient. They talked about all these cores and the overhead that, that those cores bring in the difficulty of keeping those processors, those cores busy. >>Uh, and so they talked about symmetric, uh, uh, a simultaneous multi-threading, uh, and sharing cores, which like, it was like going back to the old days of, of microprocessor development. But the point being that as you add more cores and you have that overhead, you get non-linear, uh, performance improvements. And so, so it defeats the notion of scale out, right? And so what I, what I want to get to is to get your take on this as you've been talking for a long, long time about arm in the data center, and remind me just like object storage. We talked for years about object storage. It never went anywhere until Amazon brought forth simple storage service. And then object storage obviously is, you know, a mainstream mainstream storage. Now I see the same thing happening, happening with, with arm and the data center specifically, of course, alternative processes are taking off, but, but what's your take on all this? You, you listened to the keynote, uh, give us your takeaways. >>Well, let's go back to first principles for a second. Why is this happening? It's happening because of volume, volume, volume, volume is incredibly important, obviously in terms of cost. Um, and if you, if you're, if you look at a volume, uh, arm is, is, was based on the volumes that came from that from the, uh, from the, um, uh, handhelds and all of their, all of the mobile stuff that's been generating. So there's billions of chips being made, uh, on that. >>I can interrupt you for a second, David. So we're showing a slide here, uh, and, and it's, it's, it, it, it relates to volume and somewhat, I mean, we, we talk a lot about the volume that flash for instance gained from the consumer. Uh, and, and, and now we're talking about these emerging workloads. You call them matrix workloads. These are things like AI influencing edge work, and this gray area shows these alternative workloads. And that's really what Amazon is going after. So you show in this chart, you know, basically very small today, 2020, but you show a very large and growing position, uh, by the end of this decade, really eating into traditional, the traditional space. >>That, that that's absolutely correct. And, and that's being led by what's happening in the mobile market. If you look at all of the work that's going on, on your, on your, uh, Apple, uh, Apple iPhone, there's a huge amount of, uh, modern, uh, matrix workloads are going there to help you with your photography and everything like that. And that's going to come into the, uh, into the data center within, within two years. Uh, and that's what, what, uh, AWS is focusing on is capabilities of doing this type of new workload in real time. And, and it's hundreds of times, hundreds of times more processing, uh, to do these workloads and it's gotta be done in real time. >>Yeah. So we have a, we have a chart on that this bar chart that you've, you've produced. Uh, I don't know if you can see the bars here. Um, I can't see them, but, but maybe we can, we can editorialize. So on the left-hand side, you basically have traditional workloads, uh, on blue and you have matrix workloads. What you calling these emerging workloads and red you, so you show performance 0.9, five versus 50, then price performance for traditional 3.6. And it's more than 150 times greater for ARM-based workload. >>Yeah. And that's a analysis of the previous generation of arm. And if you take the new ones, the M one, for example, which has come in to the, uh, to the PC area, um, that's going to be even higher. So the arm is producing hybrid computers, uh, multi, uh, uh, uh, heterogeneous computers with multiple different things inside the computer. And that is making life a lot more efficient. And especially in the inference world, they're using NPUs instead of GPU's, they conferred about four times more NPUs that you can GPU's. And, um, uh, it, it's just a, uh, it's a different world and, uh, arm is ahead because it's done all the work in the volume area, and that's now going to go into PCs and, and it's going to, going to go into the data center. >>Okay, great. Now, yeah, if we could, uh, uh, guys bring up the, uh, the, the other chart that's titled workloads moving to ARM-based servers, this one is just amazing to me, David, you'll see that I, for some reason, the slides aren't translating, so, uh, forget that, forget the slides. So, um, but, but basically you have the revenue coming from arm as to be substantially higher, uh, in the out years, uh, or certainly substantially growing more than the traditional, uh, workload revenue. Now that's going to take a decade, but maybe you could explain, you know, why you see that. >>Yeah, the, the, the, the, the reason is that these matrix workloads, uh, and also, uh, the offload of like nitro is doing it's the offload of the storage and the networking from the, the main CPU's, uh, the dis-aggregation of computing, uh, plus the traditional workloads, which can move, uh, over or are moving over and where AWS, uh, and, and Microsoft and the PC and Apple, and the PC where those leaders are leading us is that they are doing the hard work of making sure that their software, uh, and their API APIs can utilize the capabilities of arm. Uh, so, uh, it's, it's the it, and the advantage that AWS has of course, is that enormous economies of scale, across many, many users. Uh, that's going to take longer to go into the, the enterprise data center much longer, but the, the, uh, Microsoft, Google and AWS, they're going to be leading the charge of this movement, all of arm into the data center. Uh, it was amazing some of the people or what some of the arm customers or the AWS customers were seeing today with much faster performance and much lower price. It was, they were, they were affirming. Uh, and, and the fundamental reason is that arm are two generations of production. They are in at the moment at five nano meters, whereas, um, Intel is still at 10. Uh, so that's a big, big issue that, uh, Intel have to address. Yeah. And so >>You get, you've been getting this core creep, I'll call it, which brings a lot of overhead. And now you're seeing these very efficient, specialized processes in your premises. We're going to see these explode for these new workloads. And in particular, the edge is such an enormous opportunity. I think you've pointed out that you see a big, uh, uh, market for edge, these edge emergent edge workloads kind of start in the data center and then push out to the edge. Andy Jassy says that the edge, uh, or, or we're going to bring AWS to the edge of the data center is just another edge node. I liked that vision, your thoughts. >>Uh, I, I think that is a, a compelling vision. I think things at the edge, you have many different form factors. So, uh, you, you will need an edge and a car for example, which is cheap enough to fit into a car and it's, but it's gotta be a hundred times more processing than it is in the, in the computers, in the car at the moment, that's a big leap and, and for, to get to automated driving, uh, but that's going to happen. Um, and it's going to happen on ARM-based systems and the amount of work that's going to go out to the edge is enormous. And the amount of data that's generated at the edge is enormous. That's not going to come back to the center, that's going to be processed at the edge, and the edge is going to be the center. If you're like of where computing is done. Uh, it doesn't mean to say that you're not going to have a lot of inference work inside the data center, but a lot of, lot of work in terms of data and processing is move, is going to move into the edge over the next decade. >>Yeah, well, many of, uh, AWS is edge offerings today, you know, assume data is going to be sent back. Although of course you see outpost and then smaller versions of outposts. That's a, to me, that's a clue of what's coming. Uh, basically again, bringing AWS to, to, to the edge. I want to also touch on, uh, Amazon's, uh, comments on renewable. Peter has talked a lot about what they're doing to reduce carbon. Uh, one of the interesting things was they're actually reusing their cooling water that they clean and reuse. I think, I think you said three or multiple times, uh, and then they put it back out and they were able to purify it and reuse it. So, so that's a really great sustainable story. There was much more to it. Uh, but I think, you know, companies like Amazon, especially, you know, large companies really have a responsibility. So it's great to see Amazon stepping up. Uh, anyway, we're out of time, David, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your insights really, really appreciate it. Those, by the way, those slides of Wiki bond.com has a lot of David's work on there. Apologize for some of the data not showing through, but, uh, working in real time here. This is Dave Volante for David foyer. Are you watching the cubes that continuous coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, we'll be right back.

>> Hi, I'm Peter Burris, welcome to this Cube Conversation, where we bring some of the best ideas in the industry to the Wikibon, SiliconANGLE communities as a way of catalyzing further conversation about some of the changes, and some of the opportunities that are presented by tech in a world that's digitally transforming. We're being joined today by Bobby Patrick, who's the CMO of a company called UiPath. UiPath is one of the leaders in a technology known as robotic process automation. And we're going to talk about the problems, the solutions, and the directions forward with this, what we regard as a very, very important technology on the rise. Bobby, welcome to the Cube. >> Hi Peter, great to be here. >> So Bobby, let's start with who are you? Tell us a little bit about yourself. >> Sure, Bobby Patrick, CMO, UiPath. I was CMO of the cloud business HPE prior, a Cube alumni, I guess we call them, right? And had a history of startups, in SQL space, and open source, and different transformational companies. But I was really intrigued by the idea of software robots over the last six months, and joined UiPath, and it's just been an amazing adventure to see this kind of amazing technology really deliver outcomes for companies faster than I've ever seen happen in tech in my history. >> Well let's talk about that, so, every technology that's going to be successful has to target a problem, a group of people who are trying to solve the problem, and a set of returns. So let's talk about, what is the problem that UiPath and related technologies are actually trying to address? >> Let me start at the macro level first of all. Robotic process automation is instructive trend for digital transformation. For the last three, five, seven years, vendors and companies have said, "I want to go digital." Digital, digital, digital. Right? And going digital's really difficult. Back office processes and front office processes are complex, there's a lot of human interaction involvement in it, and in the past, the way to tackle that would be IT would engage in a significant integration project, an IT project, would purchase equipment, technology, and try to rebuild and redefine the process. Robotic process automation tackles that problem of digital transformation in a very different way. It says forget the idea of going and redoing all of the systems in the data. Let's just take it from the human perspective. Let's see how does a human engage in the process today? And let's completely mimic that human interaction. Let's do that in a way that has complete accuracy, actually higher compliance, and do that in a way that's very simple. And so our technology, which has been built over a number of years, has now perfected the ability to actually replicate and emulate a human user, interacting with multiple systems, something they do every day, in the enter process, move data around, analyze data, look at the data for context, and then execute that process continuously. And that has resulted in an industry that is booming. Forrester said last year it was a $250 million industry, it'll be a $3 billion industry in three years. And UiPath is the fastest growing company in what's called RPA. >> So let me break that down a little bit. So a couple of general principles. The computing industry has always been focused on how we can substitute technology, specifically in the form of programs, for labor. And when we do that, we're able to reduce errors, we're able to speed up the activities, we have derivative opportunities to integrate things we never did before. So let me see if I got this right. What you just described is, instead of trying to substitute for that labor, by creating a net new program that has a whole bunch of static elements, we're actually going to turn these tools and apply them to the question of, how do people do things, let's substitute for the things that people do, start there. Have I got that right? >> Yeah, I mean imagine a contact center in a customer service operation for an airline. They receive an email from a customer that's complaining, about a bad flight, that contact center specialist has to look at a variety of systems to determine your status, what did we give you recently, in two days they will respond. Maybe the person's name is Michelle, and they'll respond in two days, and give you something. Well now, Michelle the software robot can do that exact same thing in a matter of minutes, with complete accuracy, and you can apply machine learning to it, and AI to it, to determine, 95% of the time, if I provide this in this situation, I'll have a happy flier, a happy member. That's what we're talking about here, which is software robots that essentially are perfecting these complex business processes both in the back office and in the front office. Often where lots of documentation's involved, lots of different systems are involved, and a human has to interact between all of those over and over. >> So, RPA, effectively, robotic process automation, effectively provides a means to mimic the work of a person. Because that's where most process engineering is done. Mimic the work of a person, codify it in a way that actually leads to a better business outcome. So that's what it is. Now take us through how does this work? Who are the people involved in the process, what does the technology do for them, how long does it take? Give us a little bit about it. >> So one of the beauties to RPA is that this doesn't require deep engineering talent to be able to build a software robot, and execute it. In fact, some of the breakthroughs in the technology that's been created at UiPath are a studio designer, which looks much like Visio, where you can drag and drop a workflow. Subject matter experts are becoming the next coders, really. Where they can actually design the workflow. There's actually a recorder function that can actually record the user-- >> That's where it starts. It starts with the recorder looking at how people are doing things and picking up that, and turning that in semantics that are meaningful to-- >> Yeah, defining a workflow. Which has exceptions, and handling. I should mention, when you're creating, or you're automating a process, there are really two kinds of robots you're designing. One is one called an attended robot, where along that workflow that robot's going to stop and ask a human a question. It's about a third of the market right now. So the process executes and a human might have to fill in some gaps alone the way. An unattended robot can run in the cloud, or on a VM in an on-premises data center, and execute that process behind the scenes, over and over and over.. So you kind of, you're building one of two. And UiPath supports both attended and unattended robots. But yes, you're designing the workflow, that workflow may interact with a variety of systems, you might receive an email and read the email, the robot reads the email. You might actually log into salesforce.com to find out if they're a customer. You might actually upload the email as a artifact, you might then download some information, put it into a PDF, and send it on. That's an example of a workflow that you're automating end to end. >> So we've got that workflow designed, what are we doing next with it? And who's doing it? >> So this is one of the beauties, too. One of the challenges in IT is projects take a long time. But in RPA-- >> Peter: And they fail. >> And they fail. What's interesting in RPA, what we've proven now, is you can pretty much begin to digitize a process in a matter of weeks. The outcomes are almost immediate. And payback periods are often six months or less. An RPA project almost self-funds itself, which is one reason why I think this is taking off so fast as well. >> So if we want to get a payback period in six months, it means that the whole notion of how fast does it take to get a group up and running on this, becomes crucial. So what is RPA typically, who's it typically targeting? Is it a professional software developer, someone with no technology expertise, business analysts, where-- >> Business analysts, definitely. You're talking line of business. You're talking finance operation. There's a lot of innovation in finance operations. How do I improve my ability to handle invoice reconciliation, and manage purchase orders, and all that paperwork and movement of data. >> So these are people that are familiar with workflows, they're familiar with process design, et cetera, but may not be familiar with coding >> These are subject matter experts. They're not familiar with coding, but they know the process really well. They know what to do when there's an exception, they know what to do in a sequence of events, and so that's why we often say subject matter experts are the next big coders, because they can actually go and learn, in fact UiPath, we have a program called an academy. Academy is on our site, we launched it last April. 35,000 people have been certified already. These are typically business analysts who go get trained, online, self-led, get a diploma, a foundational or an advanced diploma, and are RPA developers, in fact. Now you can go deep. There's C#, you can develop and you can go deep behind it. So I'm not saying there's not some ability to go really deep in certain development. But for the most part, you're a finance operation, you're an HR operation. I'll give you an example of one that just popped up yesterday. A company called West Monroe, they're a consulting firm in Chicago, they announced that they built Rosie the Robot. And Rosie the Robot, with UiPath, is a robot that onboards all their new employees. And they're doing a lot of M and A. They're growing really fast. And onboarding all the employees was a task that required a lot of people to do a very system data intensive process. Now Rosie does all that for them. Very simple example, you can then kind of zoom out and realize that really every process, most processes, have some kind of human interaction repetitiveness to them which a robot can either assist a knowledge worker, or can actually execute that entire process flawlessly. >> Now, we're not talking about technology that's really esoteric, that requires an enormous net new experience in learning from an operations staff. We're talking about technologies that can be targeted specifically to a problem, and end up generating artifacts that are familiar to what's currently in place. Have I got that right? >> Yeah, and I think what's important, so enterprise RPA really addresses two sides. One, the business side, that's trying to digitize a process and automate, maybe for cost savings, but more important than trying to apply AI. And get smarter, right? And so that's the business side. It also addresses the IT side, which is, okay, I've got to secure these robots, how do they scale, how do I manage and govern them, imagine having thousands and thousands of robots. I'll give you another example. NASA. The first robots that NASA launched, the first one, they named George Washington. And George did a-- >> Good name. >> Bunch of work for the finance group, and they got really comfortable with George. They'd walk in in the morning and say, "What has George done for me last night?" Which is awesome. But George was onboarded just like a human worker. Meaning he has to log in to different systems, just like a human worker, and by the way, his password expires every 90 days. So how do they solve that? They created the boss robot. And the boss robot's name? Constitution. Constitution changes George's password every 90 days. That's what's happening here, is you're building out your digital workforce. So IT worries, then, about how do I manage and secure, and scale, so we think about scalability, and big scale is a big challenge, but opportunity that we're focused on, tens of thousands of robots that companies will have. We often say it'll ultimately be one robot per every employee. >> So we have not, or I think you've mentioned the word, or the phrase, "AI" just once. So this is utilizing similar kinds of concept. The attended versus unattended, for example. How you go about training. But I got to believe that there's going to be a roadmap for integrating a whole bunch of these new technologies, that are capable of providing even more degrees of freedom, more functionality, how is RPA and some of these new technologies going to intersect over the course of the next few years? >> This is a really, really important question. So RPA, and enterprise RPA and UiPath, we believe it's a platform. So once you digitize that process, you can then do things with it. We've opened APIs, it's very extensible, you can integrate with a conversation API of Watson, integrate with a chat bot and have the robots do the back end work. At Exxon, they're doing IOT, and deploying sensors left and right, but all the systems in the back end are legacy systems and Excel spreadsheets. So the robots actually are the back end, supporting the deployment of IOT on the front end. So you have this amazing combination. But what people really want to do, then, is they want to look at that process and say, "How do I make it smarter? "How do I improve the productivity over time?" It's great to get that initial bump of perhaps cost savings, when you think about the robot doing, what eight FTEs did, the one robot does. So that's one thing. But the bigger thing is being able to apply data science to the process, looking for ways to mine the process, to think about how can I do the execution better? And that's when we apply machine learning to a process. Where we can actually look, instead of having a rule, in the process that executes, you actually have the experience. Where you say, oh 90% of the time it happens this way. So I'll fill the field in, instead of going and tracking down an empty field. So you can really get smarter, and really improve productivity. Peter, this is all about productivity. GE's a great example of one, that spoke at a conference of ours recently. And the first nine months, they had $25 million of productivity from the robots. The next nine months, $150 million. But this is not about cost-cutting or employees. This is about, actually, hiring. This is about getting smarter in every process. This is about eliminating errors completely. >> Well, productivity is not just a function of the denominator, which is cost. It's also a function of the work that you can perform. And so what you're saying is that utilizing these technologies, while it may displace certain laborious tasks, nonetheless, it's automating and improving the quality of a whole bunch of others, which allows people to go off and do net new things that perhaps are better in service to customers, for example. >> Yeah, one of the fast savings we're seeing from our customers is that they're actually able to use robots to fill the gap of being able to hire new employees. So that, in Japan, here's a great, Japan's almost a unique market. Japan RPA, and UiPath is used on some of the world's largest RPA projects, like SMBC Bank, or Dentsu, the advertising agency, company, there, they're using robots to address two things. One, the decaying population, so robots are filling the gap. And also, two, suicide. There are very high suicide rate because they work these amazing hours every week. Well they're actually using robots to reduce the number of hours, as the robots complement the work of the workforce in Japan. So we're really seeing, interestingly enough, is that robots are actually filling the gaps, and beginning to do work of a workforce that maybe you wish you could hire but you can't hire. So I think that trend is what we're going to see more of in 2018. >> Excellent. So, Bobby, thank you very much for coming on the Cube, here in our Palo Alto studios, and talking to us about RPA, robotic process automation. We heard a little bit about what is it, how does it work, what's the impacts of using it, and obviously, UiPath and yourself as a increasing or emerging force within an important new marketplace for enterprises and users who are trying to increase their productivity. >> Thank you, Peter. >> Once again, this is Peter Burris, in a Cube Conversation with thought leader Bobby Patrick at UiPath. Bobby, again, thanks for coming. >> Bobby: Thank you.

(techy music playing) >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here at the CUBE, we're in our Palo Alto Studios for a CUBE Conversation. You know, it's kind of when we get a break, we're not at a show. It's a little bit quieter, a little calmer situation so we can have a little bit different kinds of conversations and we're excited to have our next guest and talk about a really important piece of this whole cloud thing, which is not only do you need to turn things on, but you need to also turn them off and that's what gets people in trouble, I think, on the cost comparison. We're joined by Krishna Subramanian, she is the co-founder and COO of Komprise, welcome. >> Thank you, thanks for having me on the show. >> Absolutely, so just real briefly for people that aren't familiar, just give them kind of the overview of Komprise. >> Komprise is the only solution that provides analytics and data management in a single package and the reason we started the company is because customers told us that they're literally drowning in data these days. As data for print continues to grow, a lot of it is in unstructured data and data, you know, what's unique about it is that you never just keep one copy of data because if your data is lost, like if your child's first year birthday picture is lost you wouldn't like that, right? >> Jeff: Do not bring that kind of stuff up in an interview. (laughs) We don't want to talk about lost photographs or broken RAID boxes, that's another conversation, but yes, you do not want to lose those pictures. >> So, you keep multiple copies. >> Right, right. >> And that's what businesses do. They usually keep a DR copy, a few backup copies of their data, so if you have 100 terabytes of data you probably have three to four copies of it, that's 400 terabytes and if 70% of that data hasn't been touched in over six months 280 of your 400 terabytes is being actively managed for no reason. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> And Komprise analyzes and finds all that data for you and shows you how much you can save by managing it at lower cost, then it actually moves and archives and reduces the cost of managing that data so you can save 70% or more on your storage. >> Right, so there's a couple components to that that you talked about. So, break it down a little bit more. One is how actively is the data managed, how hot is the data, you know, what type of storage the data is based on, its importance, its relevance and how often you're accessing it. So, one of the big problems, if I heard you right, is you guys figure out what stuff is being managed that way, as active, high value, sitting on flash, paying lots of money, that doesn't need to be. >> That's exactly right, we find that all the cold data on your current storage... We show you how much more you're spending to manage that data than you need to. >> So, how do you do that in an environment where, you know, that data is obviously connected to applications, that data might be in my data center, it could be Amazon or could be at GCP, how do you do that without interfering with my active applications on that data, because even though some of it might be ready for cold storage there might be some of it, obviously, that isn't. So, how do you manage that without impacting my operations? >> That's a great question, because really, you know, data management is like a good housekeeper. You should never know that the housekeeper is there, they should never get in the way of what you're doing, but they keep your house clean, right? And that's kind of what Komprise does for your data, and how do we do that? Well, we do that by being adaptive. So, Komprise connects to your storage just through open protocols. So, we don't make any changes to your environment and our software automatically slows itself down and runs in the background to not interfere with anything active on your storage. So, we are like a good partner to your storage. You don't even know we're there, we're invisible to all the active work and yet we're giving all these important analytics and when we move the data, all the data looks like it's still there, so it's fully transparent. >> Okay, you touched on a couple things. So, one is how do you sit there without impacting it? I think you said you partner with all the big data, or excuse me, all the big storage providers. >> Krishna: Yes. >> You partner with all the three big cloud providers, just won an award at re:Invent, congratulations. >> Krishna: Thank you. >> So, how do you do that, where does your software sit, does it sit in the data center or does it sit at Amazon and how does it interact with other management tools that I might already have in place? >> That's a great question, so Komprise runs as a hybrid cloud service, and essentially there is a console that's running in the cloud, but the actual analysis and data movement is done by virtual machines that are running at the customer's site and you literally just point our virtual machine at any storage you have and we work through standard protocols, through NFS, SMB CIFS, and REST S3, so whether you have NetApp storage or EMC storage or Windows File Servers or Hitachi NAS or you're putting data on Amazon or Azure or Google or an object storage, it doesn't actually matter. Komprise works with all those environments because we are working through open standards, and because we're adaptive we're automatically running in the background, so it's working through open standards and it's non-intrusive. >> Okay, and then if you designate that some percentage of this storage does not need to be in the high, expensive environment, you actually go to the next step and you actually help manage it and move it, so how does that impact my other kind of data management procedures? >> Yes, so it's a great question. So, most of the time you would probably have some DR copy and some backups running on your hot storage, on your flash storage, say, and you don't want to change that and you don't want users to point anywhere else, so what Komprise does is it takes the cold data from all that storage and when it moves that data it's fully transparent. The moved data looks like it's still there on that storage, it's just that the footprint is reduced now, so for 100MB file you just have a one kilobyte link on that storage, and we don't use any stub files, we don't put any agents on the storage, so we don't make any changes to your active environment. It's fully transparent, users and applications think all the data is still there, but the data is now sitting in something lower cost and it's dynamically managed through open standards, just like you and I are talking now and I don't need a translator between us because we both understand English. >> Jeff: Right. >> But maybe if I were speaking Japanese you might need a translator, right? >> Jeff: I would, yeah. (laughs) Yes. >> Krishna: That was just a guess, I didn't know. So, that's kind of how we do it, we work through the open standards and in the past solutions were... We didn't do that, they would have a proprietary protocol and that's why they could only work with some storage and not all, and they would get in the way of all the access. >> But do I want it to look like it looked before if in fact it's ready to be retired into cold storage or Glacier or whatever, because I would imagine there's a reason and I don't know that I necessarily want the app to have access. I would imagine my access and availability of stuff that's in cold storage is very different kind of profile than the hot stuff. >> It depends, you know, sometimes some data you may want to truly archive and never be able to see it live. Like, maybe you're putting it in Glacier, and you can control how the data looks, but sometimes you don't want to interrupt what the applications are doing. You want to just go to a lower cost of storage, like an object storage on-premise. >> Right. >> But you still want the data accessible because you don't want a vague user and application behavior. >> Jeff: Right, right. >> Yeah. >> Okay, so give us a little bit more information on the company. So, you've been around for three years. We talked a little bit before we turned the cameras on, you know, kind of how many people do you have, how many customers, how many rounds of funding have you guys raised? >> Komprise is growing rapidly. We have about 60 people, we have a headquarters in Campbell, California, we also have offices in Bangalore, India. We just hired a new VP of worldwide sales and we're putting field sales teams in different regions, we have over 60 customers worldwide. Our customer base is growing rapidly. Just this last quarter we added about four times the number of customers, and we're seeing customers all the way from general mix and healthcare to big insurance and financial services companies, anywhere where there's data, you know. Universities, all the major research universities are our customers and government institutions, you know, state and local governments, et cetera. So, these are all good markets for us. >> Right, and you said it's a services, like a SAS model, so you charge based on how much data that's under management. >> Yeah, we charge for all the data that's under management and it's a fraction of what you pay to store the data, so our cost is like less than half a penny a gig a month. >> Right, it's pretty interesting, you know, we just got back from AWS re:Invent as well, over 40,000 people, it's bananas. But this whole kind of rent versus buy conversation is really interesting to me, and again, I always go back to Netflix. If anybody uses a massive amount of storage and a massive amount of network and computing where they own like, I don't know, 50% of the Friday night internet traffic, right, in the States is Netflix and they're still on Amazon. I think what's really interesting is that if you... The flexibility of the cloud to be able to turn things on really easily is important, but I think what people often forget is it's also you need to turn it off and so much activity around better managing your investment and the resources at Amazon to use what you need when you need it, but don't pay for what you don't need when you don't, and that seems to be, you know, something that you guys are right in line with and consistent with. >> Yeah, I think that's actually a good way to put it. Yeah, don't pay for data when you don't need to, right? You can still have it but you don't need to pay for it. >> Right, well Krishna, thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day to stop by and give us the story on Komprise. >> Yeah, thank you very much, thanks for having me. >> All right, pleasure, she's Krishna, I'm Jeff, you're watching the CUBE. We're at Palo Alto Studios, CUBE Conversation, we'll see you next time, thanks for watching. (techy music playing)

(techno music) >> Welcome back, everybody, Jeff Frick with theCUBE. We're having CUBE conversations in the Palo Alto studio. We're getting to the end of the conference season, so it's nice to take a break and do some interviews from the studio instead of from the road. We're excited to have our next guest. He's David Green, he's the CEO of Zero Stack. David, welcome. >> Thank you very much. >> Absolutely, great to have you here. So for folks who aren't familiar with Zero Stack, why don't you give them kind of the quick overview. >> Great, so Zero Stack's focus on building a new generation of private cloud infrastructure where IT can simplify their operations through automation, and at the same time, retain control of the environment. We're really trying to deliver that public cloudlike experience to users while giving IT the type of control they want to have. >> But you, just so I understand, so that, right, a lot of pressure, lot of benefits to public cloud, and everybody wants it in a private cloud, right? There's a lot of issues with public cloud that, you know, there's some data that can't be there, this or that, but there's a lot of attributes of public cloud that people just love, so how are you kind of squaring that circle? >> It's interesting, right? In the last 10 years that I've been working on cloud, this has been one of the recurring themes. It's one of the things that I think is so exciting about Zero Stack, right? You talk to a customer, you talk to an IT customer, and they're like, "I love the convenience of the public cloud idea, it's going to be so simple to operate, right? "But, I need to know where my data is. "I'm accountable for security, I'm accountable for cost. "I need to have control of the environment. "Why can't I have these two things together?" And that's what we've tried to merge together. So from an IT standpoint, it's still going to look and feel like that on-premises IT-managed infrastructure they're comfortable with. From a user perspective though, it's going to have that same sort of self service, on demand that they're used to getting from a public cloud. Think of going to a web application that looks and feels like Amazon, being able to pick the resources you want, but have those resources be coming from resources running within your data center. >> Right, right. >> And then be able to add to those resources the tools that you need to be productive in the environment, really very value added for the developer, again, in that infrastructure that's living in your environment. >> And to be clear, you're not replacing that existing infrastructure that's in my environment, you're really offering, I don't know, kind of a cloud virtualization overlay or ... >> The goal is to-- >> Restructures the UI? >> Yes. You use the servers you've got, the storage ya got, the networking you've got, pull those together into a pooled resource, again, back to the idea of a private cloud, pull those resources into a single set of resources that can be accessed for a variety of use cases to support different applications in the environment. >> So what's the impact, cause obviously, if there wasn't a benefit to doing it that way, people wouldn't be doing shadow IT and whipping out the credit card with Amazon. So, when you do this in an enterprise, what are some of the benefits they see? >> I mean, I think there's a couple. One is the radical simplification of operations. From an IT standpoint, running a private cloud is hard. You know, if you hook up your build of the online environments, which is kind of the most typical frame of reference that we see, it's expensive to set up. It's expensive to operate. It's complicated, it's hard to hire the people. We're trying to get away from the burden. That's the first driver we see for people. From a user standpoint, it's really about that speed. How does IT keep up with the demands of its users and move at that same pace, right? So trying to pull together those two sets of benefits into one is really the package that seems to drive our business. >> And that's really hard, right for IT cause IT's just be keeping their lights on, keeping everything running. Now it's a core piece, if not the really strategic piece, of the business. We talked a little bit before they turned the cameras on-- >> Right, right. >> About banking, right, all banking interfaces these days are electronic. There's nobody goes in to talk to the teller and giving them a check. >> Wait a sec, so go back up here. So, remember that IT today was fundamentally built around the back office. It was fundamentally built around stability. Remember the days when a change request was a physical piece of paper with 20 signatures on it, and you ran around the office, right? >> Every now then, not very often. (laughing) >> You were supposed to right? That was the mindset, right? I think in a traditional back-office set of applications, that worked great. But the problem is today, when the business is presenting itself to customers through software and trying to move at the speed of its customers, those old IT mechanisms built around stability just can't keep up. >> Right. >> So that's the gap that we're really trying to bridge with the Zero Stack solution. Preserve that knowledge set, preserve that control, preserve that data sovereignty that IT can bring, that on-premises infrastructures can bring, but at the same time, still operate at a pace and a speed that more dev ops organization is looking for. >> Right, because the pressure on IT >> It's only getting bigger. >> It's only getting more ... >> It's only getting more. >> If you're not using software to find automation, you're falling behind. So, I would imagine there's some second order impacts that have to come out of using a tool like Zero Stack in terms of utilization and those types of things that are probably some great opportunities. >> Essentially, we really want to be the heart. While the solution looks and feels more like they've got interfaces and management, the heart of the solution, in our mind really, is our machine learning capabilities. It's ability to take a set of information from the application layer, from the operations layer, from the infrastructure and from that start to make educated judgements as to how the infrastructure can best be utilized to support the business and to support the applications. So where should work loads be placed? How are we going to plan for capacity? What needs to happen next in the environment? How should we take corrective action? These are all the sorts of things that we can start to do. And again, what we're really trying to do is we're trying to automate some of the mundane tasks that held back IT and slowed down IT operations, and instead, let them focus on the areas where they can be of more value consulting with the business, helping to move things forward, helping to address higher order questions. >> Right, because really that's another huge opportunity for cost savings or efficiency for the customer, right? Because the traditional methods were not very efficient, and you had, since they weren't efficient, you had to have a lot of overhead, and you had to, you know, pre-order stuff, and you couldn't flex, so you're now, with your automation and machine learning, helping to better utilize those resources on just the pure infrastructure spending, right? >> Exactly, exactly. And that gives you part of the cost benefit that we see with the Zero Stack solution. By getting better utilization of the infrastructure that you have, we'll able to have a more economical solution going forward. We have customers who are getting a 10X return on their investment by using the Zero Stack solution over other cloud solutions they've looked at, just by getting better intelligence and better automation and better operation clarity about what they're doing. >> So then do you partner then with HP and a lot of the infrastructure providers who talk a lot about hybrid cloud cause clearly, they're invested in keeping a big piece of the cloud inside their walls. >> So in our model, we view ourselves as a software company. So we're going to add that Zero Stack software solution on top of your infrastructure of choice. And so, that could be Dell, that could be HP, that could be Lenovo, ya know, all the kind of leading hardware vendors have been certified to work with our product. We're going to add our software on top to create their cloud infrastructure. Then we're going to add our maturing applications, our user self-service applications on top of that, and that's going to give you the top-to-bottom full stack solution. And that full stack's really important because if you want to be able to take automated actions, you want to be able to optimize infrastructure, you've got to be able to not only interface with the users and meet their demands, but also translate those demands down to actions you're taking on the infrastructure. So we're going to be able to do that full stack top to bottom. >> So just a little bit more background on the company. How big are you, how long you been around, how many people, funding? >> Well, we're a start-up here based in Silica Valley, Mountain View, California. We're a Series B company. We're proud to have our first set of customers working with us right now, actively exercising the products, fantastic big enterprise projects. I'm looking forward to coming back and telling you about it as those finish up. But really, all from the theme of people who are unsatisfied with the solutions they've had available to them in the past and trying to figure out how they're going to move forward with a better, more flexible, easier to operate cloud solution. >> All right, well, David, we look forward to watching the progress and getting an update in a few months. >> Look forward to it. >> All right, David, thanks for taking a few minutes out of your day. I'm Jeff Frick, he's David Greene. You're watching theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

(upbeat techno music) >> And welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're having a CUBE Conversation in our Palo Alto Studios. We're excited to have our next guest, who is an ABIE award winner from the Grace Hopper Celebration. Would've been competing in early October, we tried to get her on then, schedules didn't mesh so it took us a few months, but we're really excited to have our next guest. She's Mercedes Soria, she is a VP of Software Engineering for Knightscope. Mercedes, welcome. >> Thank you, thank you, I am so happy to be here. >> Absolutely, so, congratulations again on your award of leadership and part of the winnings of that is you got to keynote in front of 18,000 people. So A, What was your impression of Grace Hopper and B, how did you like keynoting in front of 18,000 folks? >> Yes, how was Grace Hopper, it was a huge community of women in technology. I was so excited to be there, everybody was just looking up to women, everybody was trying to help each other. How do you go forward in your career, and I was really focused on STEM careers, which is one of my passions. So I was so glad to be there. And how it was to keynote in front of 18,000 people, so I hadn't done that before, so I can check it off my bucket list, that was one thing. And it was amazing, there were so many women who just clapped and they just kept supporting it and I had to stop several times while I was giving the speech, so it was once in a lifetime opportunity that I'm very grateful for. >> It's an amazing accomplishment, again, congratulations, and it's amazing show, if you haven't been to Grace Hopper, you have to sign up, how fast you say it sold out? >> Mercedes: 25 minutes. >> 25 minutes, oh. Go to anitaborg. or anitab.org now, that's right, they changed the URL, yeah, I'll have to check it out. So let's jump in about Knightscope. So for the people who aren't familiar, go the website, knightscope.com, a bunch of really cool fun stuff, tell us about what Knightscope's all about. >> So Knightscope is a company that is trying to cut the crime cost to the US in half. So most people don't know that the US spends about one trillion dollars a year just to deal with crime in the US, so our goal at Knightscope is to cut that in half with the use of new technologies like artificial intelligence, machine learning, and robotics. A group is software plus hardware plus humans, so we take the good things that humans do, which is make strategic decisions, the good things that machines do, which is do the monotonous work and store data for a very long time, and we combine those to try to help with crime. >> Right, so that's a nice explanation. The short answer is, if you go to the website, it's all rolled up into these cool robots that look like C-3PO, and I'm wondering if there's a little man inside there, but we'll get into that later. But I think it's a really interesting concept because you are bringing together many of the hot topics in technology right now, so one of'em just with robotics. You got these robots of various shapes and sizes, but as you said, really, it's the synergy of the robots with the people that give kind of a one plus one makes three effect. How is it, where are those points of intersection, and how does the robot help the human do a better job, and how does the human help the robot do a better job? >> So the robot helps the human because, in this case, security guards have to walk around the same places all day long, right, they have their route, they do that all day long and they get very, very bored, and they get to the point where they don't care anymore and they just scan a badge and then that is the job, right? So that's what the robots do, which is, they don't mind going around the same area all day long, recording data, recording video. That's where the synergy is. Now what the robots, at this point, can do is make a decision in terms of, okay, I have this five things, should I make an alarm to my supervisor and say a guard needs to come. The robot only provides information, so all of that information that we provide is so the human can make a decision on what to do next. >> And does it feed into, I mean obviously these are big security systems that already exist inside these big buildings and these big facilities. Does your robot tie back into those facilities, is it a different layer on top of it, how does it work with the existing security infrastructure that's already in place? >> So the existing security infrastructure is a bit separate at this time. There is a project that we're working on in terms to integrate because there's so many security systems out there, for a start up like us, we need to be very smart in terms of where we spend our resources. So we got to do studies and figure out which were the better senders, the better companies that we need to partner with to do that. But at this point, it's a separate tool, so you open it and all the gear you need is a current browser, you can open it from anywhere in the world, and your security people can look at all the data the machine has collected. >> Right, so the other interesting piece that you're tying together via these machines is really this combination of AI and ML, artificial intelligence, machine learning, but also your background is in user interface, so it can't just be happening in the background because these machines need to do their job, executing through and with people, on the UI side and the security guards and the security infrastructure behind them. So as you've introduced more AI and machine learning into the software components that you can drive the UI, how is that changing the world, how is the UI world changing because now you've got so much more data and so much more kind of compute behind that before it even gets to the actual user that's interfacing with it? >> Yeah so the UI's a little more rich these days, it used to be a webpage and HTML and JavaScript page, and that's all it did, right, but now we have a lot more information that we can provide. For example, we have machine learning algorithms that detect if there's people in an image, so I don't only tell you this is my video, but I also give you a picture of the person that I just saw, and then I tell you, hey, this is what I saw. It makes your experience a lot more incursive. >> Right, and another potential integration point, right obviously with photos in the security system for IDs and passes and all those things. >> Yeah, even face detection at some point as well is very important for us. >> Now you have four different models, why do you have so many models, what's the use cases that would drive you to have four different models? Hard to support four models instead of one as a startup. >> Yeah so our customers have very different needs. Crime doesn't happen just in a shopping mall, crime happens at PG&E offices, it happens at the mall, it happens at different locations, it could be outside, it could be inside, it could be in a hospital, it can be in a parking lot, so what we tried to do was to cover all of those potential places where crime will be. So with that we have four products; we have the K5, which is our first product. It goes into ADA compliant environments like hospitals and data centers, it's a big robot and mainly used for things like a parking lot to detect license plates, to make sure that it's monitoring all the outside. Our second product is the K3 which is a smaller machine, and what it does is mainly goes inside, it can go through a door and it can do things like monitoring who's at the office at night, raising an alert if there was a fire, stuff that happens inside. We have the K7 which goes to outside places where you have things like speed bumps, you have different kind of terrain, gravel or other type. And then the K1 which is our static model that what we're working on that for the future is to have concealed weapon detection at that point, which is something that is very useful for places that have, like for hospitals, when somebody comes in, they want to be able to know if these people are armed. >> Right, I'm just curious if you can share where customers have seen the most impact, the most benefit by using one of your robots. What specific behaviors have just been a game changer when they put in the Knightscope robot? >> Yeah, so I can't tell you the actual customer, that is something >> No, no, that's okay. >> That we can't say, but I would tell you one example. We have, for example, a hospital and this place is open 24/7, obviously the emergency room, and when they will have, it's down in LA, so they will have at least one break-in every week at the parking lot. So we put our machines there and the past seven months that they have been there, they got zero, they got no break-ins. And the nurses now feel safer going to their cars, people feel safer going there at night, so that is one example. We also had an example of a shopping mall where there was a guy who was basically exposing himself and nobody could catch him because he would drive, as soon as he saw a security guard, he would drive out. So we were able to catch that person as well. There are some people to steal merchandise, so they came, they stole something, they left, and the very next day, they come back and they try to sell this back to the mall people, so by seeing who these people are then determining that they came back to the mall, we were able to apprehend them as criminals. >> Right, on the first example, on the parking lot example, does the robot have active deterrents that it can do, can it sound alarms, light lights, to make people feel safer in a parking lot, that's very different than just monitoring things? >> Yeah so what the robot does is, it has a sound that it's all day it's playing that sound, there's a lot of lights, the lights change color based on what's happening around the robot. Another thing that we have that helps a lot of people feel safe, we have a push-to-talk functionality, so if you were feeling something was wrong at night, you can push that button and you can directly talk to the people at the security operation center. They can walk you through what to do, they can follow you while you go to your car, there's different functionality that we have that helps people feel that they're safe outside. >> Right, and on the shoplifting one, it's interesting 'cause lots of stores have cameras, right, that's not a new thing. So what did your system do differently that the regular camera that they had in there before probably would've filmed the person but didn't necessarily wasn't firing off the alert, recognizing they were back again, did somebody go in and manually type in this particular person's a shoplifter. How did you guys take it to a much different level than just kind of a static security cam? >> So the main thing that you should keep in mind for static cameras is there's always black spots, blind spots, there's no way that they can see everything, and mainly you have cameras inside of the shops, you don't have them outside, so what we did is, we not only saw that we not only got the video of the person inside of the shop, but we saw them when they came outside, we saw them when they were moving, all of this is recorded in video and that we can then match them and see the people who were. Another thing that we do that cameras don't do is we can detect your mobile devices, anything that has that's looking for a network, we can identify that device, and that is always for you and that is always for that device, so we can match those devices when they come in. >> You shouldn't have waited this long but one of the most interesting things about the company and what you guys do, and it's highlighted by what you just said, is the way you go to market. People are not buying these robots, right, you offer the robots as a service, so really interesting model and really brings up interesting things like you said where you can do all kinds of software upgrades, you can do hardware upgrades, you can do all types of changes to the actual unit that the customer just benefits, it's a classic SAS model. So how did you get to that stage and how do people like having, now, kind of a simple monthly payment with all the upgrades and constant, I would imagine, a lot of upgrades coming pretty consistently? Pretty interesting way to go to market, how's that received in the market? >> It's very well, people really accepted, especially when it's new technology. We decided from the beginning that we wanted to be, to own the whole technology stack, and even the robot itself because we knew there would be a lot of upgrades, we knew there would be changes and we wanted to serve our customers in the very best way that was possible. So to help people adopt new technology, we help them with how do they perceive it on a daily basis. If you come to somebody and says they want you to buy a hundred thousand dollar robot, uh, you don't know what that's going to be, but if you said, I charge you ten dollars an hour and give you a robot, that not only changes software every other week, it changes hardware every six months, and you have whatever robot will fit your needs the best. People are really accepting of that model, to the point that all the companies are jumping into the same thing. >> It's really interesting because then it begs where you guys will develop as a company, you know, are you are robotics company, are you a software company, are you a software monitoring company, do you become really a security AI company that pulls from lots of different data and lots of different sources? It really opens up a broad range of opportunities for you guys in which you want to go or where you find your most expertise or where the market takes you. Pretty exciting way to go to market. >> Yeah so what we decided to was we wanted to be the Apple of security guards, so what Apple does is they have their software, their hardware, they own all of it, and therefore they have a very loyal following. We want to be that for security guards, so we own the whole environment, we make changes when we wanted to, and then we go to market that way. >> Okay, that's a great story and again it's knightscope.com, they're fun pictures for one, but it's a great story. But before I let you go, Telly would not be happy if I didn't take a few minutes to talk about your journey. How did you get here, VP of Software Engineering? You know, software's eating the world, it's a great place to be, you've got a solutions based system, but really it's a bunch of metal wrapped up with software inside. So how did you get here, and I wonder if you can share a little bit of your journey to become VP of Software Engineering? >> Yeah so I'm an immigrant, I'm not from the US. I was born South America, and when you're in South America and somebody tells you, hey there's an opportunity for you to go study in the US, you take that opportunity. So I came to the US to study for college, I had a Bachelors in Computer Science and then a Masters in Computer Science. >> Where did you go to school? >> I went to Middle Tennessee State University, and like I said, when somebody tells you, you're going to the US, you don't ask questions, you just go. >> So who made you that offer, how did that come about? >> My university in Ecuador, where I was from, they had an agreement with the university in Tennesee. So they would send students back and forth in an exchange program. >> So you're a good student, they identified you as having great potential and you got picked for that program? >> So 5,000 people apply for 20 spots when I applied. >> Wow. >> So 20 of us came, and out of the 20, the only two people who are staying in the US, my sister and I, we're twins, I have a twin sister. >> 'Cause you ask your sister for support, maybe? Twin sister. >> If I really, it probably had a lot to do with it. And then with technology, I found my way into Knightscope, and Knightscope is a really good company for women in technology specifically, and that is some of the work that I pushed myself to do. Our women in technology numbers are about 25% to 28% of the company which is a huge number for Silicon Valley. So we hire women, we try to mentor them, I myself take time to spend time with them, and then help them get a career that they're excited about. >> And when did you discover your affinity for computer science? It's always a great debate as to when is the best time, or when is the optimal time, or the most popular time for young girls and eventually young women to get involved in STEM? What was your experience? >> So I live with my uncle in Ecuador and my mother, so I always knew I wanted to do something structured, and at the beginning, he was an architect, so I thought I would be an architect, but then I started reading some science fiction books and the closest thing for me to science fiction, making that a reality, was a career in computer science and technology. So that's how I started, and that has led me to, now, Knightscope, and we're doing the most advanced technology that is out there, we're out there with artificial intelligence, we have machine learning, all of the technologies that are out there, robotics, we are using them to put them to use for the greater good. Our job is to keep America safe, and we all are working towards that goal. >> But I think you just want to make something fun that looked like C-3PO. >> It's more like R2-D2 actually, and if you want to see more, go to knightscope.com. >> Okay, and final question. So you're advice, more general advice, to older girls or young women, in terms of what they should do if they want to get into this or why they should consider a career in STEM if they haven't already. >> A career in STEM is very, very rewarding. You're going to be doing sometimes things that nobody else has done ever before. You're out there in front of everything that's happening with technology, and it's actually exciting. When you find other women that do what you want to do, look at people's backgrounds, look at what they've done, look what they're trying to accomplish, and then, make sure that you get into their lives and they'll help you through it. There's a lot of women who would be happy to help out and one of those is me, I'd be glad to help people out. >> Well, Mercedes, thank you so much, again, for spending some time. Congratulations on the award and comin' in and tellin' us your story and educating us more on Knightscope. >> Thank you, and if anybody wants to know, knightscope.com, they can find all about our technology. >> Alright, she's Mercedes, I'm Jeff Frick, we've been having a CUBE conversation in Palo Alto, thanks for watching, we'll catch you next time. (light techno music)

>> Narrator: From the SiliconANGLE Media Office in Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Now, here's your host, Stu Miniman. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is theCUBE's Boston area studio. Happy to welcome back to the program a guest we've had on a number of times but first time in the role, Nancy Pearson, now the CMO of Openlink. Nancy, thanks for joining us here in the office, and great to see you. >> Great to see you, Stu. >> Alright, so we've had you on in your previous role at a number of big events. Tell us, what led you to Openlink? >> Well, I was really attracted to Openlink because of the position that they hold in the market in terms of being the leader of trading treasury and risk management across multiple industries. And I also took a look at their clients, and they have a pretty impressive client roster, companies and businesses that are really instrumental to the industry, and I wanted to have an impact in that kind of environment, so that's why I looked at Openlink. >> Yeah, Nancy, your whole career, you've been looking at, there's so much change happening in the industry. Digital is more than just a buzzword. What are you seeing today in your clients here at Openlink? >> Yeah, what I see, and going from a large enterprise environment where people jumped on the digital bandwagon fairly early, in many other industries, it's been a little bit of a struggle to understand, what does that really mean for our business? And one of the first things I noticed about coming to Openlink is they really weren't on the digital network. They were doing events, very heavily into email, et cetera, that type of marketing, but it was really important to get them on the digital platform. So that's digital advertising, and to really think about a digital first data driven campaign type approach for demand generation as well. >> And what does digital mean for your customers? >> Well it's really important to them as well. They're modernizing their business. Digital is disrupting their business. So on the side of their health, they have to actually embrace it and understand, what does that mean for my business? What do I need to put in place to be more visible? To understand the new game of engaging the clients in a digital format? I mean, 70% of clients and prospects actually do the investigatory work to actually understand which vendors they're going to be partnering with before they ever actually reach out to that client. So it's really important that you have a very strong website, and that was one of the first things that we started with at Openlink. >> What kind of things do you change to the website to make it more modern, more digital? >> Well we completely redesigned the website from the bottom up. So a new content management system, a totally new designed website with engagement, everything from thought leadership down to rethinking how we actually presented our products, as well as adding personalization. So you're able to really find what you want by your role, by industry, and by even deeper subject matter expertise and areas of focus. >> What's the mindset of your customers? I think a couple years it ago, it was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to get Netflixed. "I'm going to get disrupted by digital." Is this now a weapon or an opportunity for them, or is it still a mix? >> No, it's definitely an opportunity, because digital levels the playing field for companies. So, it doesn't matter the size of the business, the complexity of the business. The winner is the person that at the end of the day can engage clients through their digital website, and also through Google, through LinkedIn, through all the different mechanisms today where you can engage with personalization. You can see and understand what your clients' needs are, and whoever serves that best is going to be the winner at the end of the day, which is why I say digital really helps create a level playing field. But you have to know how to use the tools. >> Love to hear more about what are your customers doing? How's Openlink helped them? >> So for example, one of the big questions right up front is usually, "How important is digital and social media?" And a lot of large enterprise clients struggle with that. The ones that have learned to use it as a tool really well and targeted can extend their reach triple-fold out in the market, and really get their story out in a way they couldn't previously. So digital and social media is one thing related to awareness and your share voice in the market. But your website, how you design that website through a client journey is really what makes all the difference. It turns opportunity into demand and leads and helps clients take action along the way. So a combination of being on the digital network, having a very strong website, and then modernizing the rest of your marketing tools for personalization. >> Any examples you can give kind of anonymized from your clients? I think most people know the big consumer brand, retail, how they interact. I know I travel a lot and see how the airlines are super responsive, but you've got some pretty specific industries. >> It's true, and we do some very highly targeted marketing. So, for example, knowing where our clients go to get their information. Knowing how to mirror that type of content through even third-party and how we build content on our own website to attract them and have them coming back for more is really the intricacies of how you actually build engagement and how you convert that engagement to leads, annuity. And then client references, story telling. So we really turned our content from pushing out content to telling stories. You'll see that everywhere. You'll see a lot of the very sophisticated players using storytelling. A lot of commercials today are storytelling mode, but we can do that within business, and it's the most powerful marketing you can create. >> Yeah, we in theCUBE, we always talk about extracting the signal from the noise, and you've got to be more personalized. You've got to tell those stories. Otherwise it just becomes noise, and it's tough for people to find something that captures them, and that they're going to want to glom on to. >> And learn from, frankly. >> That's great. Nancy, CMO role, have to imagine it's gone through a lot of changes recently. What are you seeing? Is there various types of roles as CMO? What are you seeing as some of the major changes there? >> I think the CMO role's changed a lot in the last five to seven years. And in particular, it's no longer a push mechanism of your message out into the market. It's establishing that relationship with clients, doing it through your website, doing it where they go on digital and social media. And the message is really important. What is your specific differentiation, and how does that help clients solve their business problems? So for Openlink, we did an effort right up front that really talked about understanding the purpose that we have within our client environments, defining three core messages, that we help clients establish and create a single source of the truth. For risk, and in their business for trading treasury and risk. We also help them solve complex business problems, and we bring expertise that they really can't get otherwise, because Openlink is a very unique solution. It's the leader. A platform that's really extensible across their enterprise for medium-sized businesses to large-sized businesses. So getting that message out and being very specific about it with detail is an important part of getting the value to your clients. >> There's a tough dynamic of, we have the data, but how do I make sure I'm securing that data? The governance risk. A lot of shows this year, GDPR's been a topic that's been popping to make sure that if I've got that data, I need to make sure, oh, if a customer comes to me I can make sure that that's being used in the right ways, not being used into. How's the changing landscape affecting your customers? >> Well, I think data is the new commodity, right. A new economy is being built from data and how you utilize it. So for Openlink, we have a platform that for, whether it's energy companies, airlines, these large enterprises that are data-rich, data-intensive environments, we have a huge opportunity to help them get more value from their data, and creating a single view of that data across the silos of their business gives them the visibility and insight to be able to innovate. And innovation is the name of the game for our clients. Things like getting into cloud, monetizing data and creating new services for different revenue streams. There's a tremendous amount of opportunity, and that's really in the sweet spot of this business. >> Openlink cloud is a new announcement that you had out. >> Nancy: It is. >> How does that impact how you reach your customers, how you market to your customers? >> Well, first of all, we've had a tremendous amount of uptake from the cork lines that we have to move to cloud, and so it's created a lot of opportunity for us. Everyone is needing to modernize and reduce their reliance on cost related to infrastructure, and cloud is in innovation platform. So in our business, this is our innovation platform, and they can build on top of that once they move to that type of an environment and realize some of those cost benefits. The future is innovation as it relates to our Openlink cloud, and we're really excited and really positive about the interest from our clients. And everyone needs to innovate today. Your point up front about disruption, you're either being disrupted or you're disrupting your industry. Those are the choices you have to make today. >> Yeah, right. Do you want to set the menu or be on the menu? (laughter) >> Nancy: Exactly. >> Nancy, you talked about the website. What other changes have you been making to Openlink so far? And love to hear what's on your plate for the next six to 12 months. >> Well, right up front the objective was to make marketing a strategic partner to the CEO and to the leadership. And so we're continuing on that journey. So we rebranded the business and really modernized our logo; as I mentioned, grounded back our message around differentiators from a client perspective, and really being in touch with that; created a foundational website that's best of breed and leading edge; and now what I want to do going into 2018 is really just build on top of that. So how do we create demand? How do we provide more thought leadership and build content in a way that's meaningful to the industry and to our clients to help them increase their own proficiency in the spaces that we serve? And be able to help make them successful as well. >> All right, talk about leveling the playing field, whether you're a hundred year old company, a 25 year old company or a six month old company, what does it mean in today's market? >> It means that you can compete. It means that you can have the same voice, and you don't have to have the same budget. You don't have to have the same sized business. But if you know how to use the tools today, and you know how to create incredible content, you can have an equal voice. >> Nancy Pearson, CMO of Openlink. Great to catch up with you. Thanks so much for sharing with us all the updates. We look forward to tracking the progress of you and Openlink. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Stu Miniman. You're watching theCUBE. (electronic music)

LeBron welcome to the silicon angle studios the cube here in Palo Alto I'm John furry your host we are in studio for a conversation with Aykroyd who's the CEO vision formerly with Oracle marketing cloud recently took the Jobs CEO decision congratulations thanks John great to see you thanks for coming in on the holidays kind of winding down the year what a year it's been Trump's meeting with tech leaders Oh having them kiss the ring get the trillion dollars offshore on site advertising is upside down date is the hottest thing on the planet you know you're in the center of the action certainly at Oracle we had multiple conversations but now you're leading in coupling so Kevin Aykroyd leaving Oracle marketing cloud or incision that's that's way down the track that has change right no big deal well we're as you know we're always out front of the trends but the marketing concepts have been around our businesses since in the centuries since business was around but now is data as we talked us changing so the biggest trend that we see happening is that marking isn't just a marketing thing it's a company-wide data opportunity so it's certainly changing a lot of the game and I know we've talked about that so you know what's the what's the change why did you decide to take the CEO opportunity of decision was the company did it what attracted you to these yes thanks for asking and good to be here by the way i I've been here with you fair amount this is the first time I'm not wearing my Oracle marketing cloud uniform so good to be seen in a second uniform right how does the how does the blue and orange decision uniform look John I look I've been working hard all right yeah yeah taking these good well you got to grow you know that's executive everything stops with yeah well well and just to be really clear because I know that my name with you guys especially has been synonymous with Oracle marketing cloud I I started it I did all the acquisitions I grew it you know is kind of my baby I didn't leave because there was anything wrong I think Oracle marketing cloud is going to continue to just absolutely kick ass and take names think they've built the right mousetrap you know as you've heard me they didn't they didn't start from CRM and go backward they didn't start from the website and go out they started with data right data objects crosswise add this the first big DoD MP and data marketplace I think they're data-driven you know strategy is going to continue to see them just absolutely survive after me and I sure hope something cause I well they're set up to win I mean if the integrations are always a challenge and I think our last interview at the modern marketing experience great show yeah we talked about that specific thing where you want to be vertically specialized but yet horizontally integrated and you set that up and and I think I and day right have set that up so they're poised really well CC so I didn't leave Oracle because of any lack of faith in their ability to go conquer that very big opportunity or any personal dissatisfaction is probably the best job I've ever had my career this is one of those classic cases where I saw an opportunity that was so good I had to leave something that I that I loved so for everybody that's listening I'll just say that again Kevin didn't leave Oracle because there was anything wrong Kevin left Oracle because of what I'm about to riff on now it was this big opportunity and basically John we can we can go as deep as you'd like to in today's interview but at the highest level this big opportunity that I saw is you just look at the data driven and then you know data meets content meets applications meets media the channels come together right the life cycles you look at everything that's happened and it's easy to kind of now say well just go look at what Salesforce marketing cloud and adobe marketing cloud an Oracle marketing cloud right look at that billions and billions and billions and billions of acquisition look how fast and far that's come and basically look at the needs that drove that that massive convergence and it has fundamentally changed the industry it's fundamentally changed the chief media the chief marketing the chief commerce officers ability to go drive results that they couldn't have done without Salesforce Adobe and Oracle doing what we did right but all of that has been done at paid media right the advertising at commerce and it owned media right our websites or mobile applications none of that through with all the tech giants in the industry and of the 20 billion dollars in M&A capital op X and capex since then none of its touched the third leg of the stool which is earned media right earned media communications good old-fashioned PR the exact same need for that data technology and measurement transformation that sales and service and commerce and paid media you know and owned they've all been through that this mission critical part called communications or in media has not been through it as we were building this my private equity company GT CR is very quick quietly over the last two years put together six leading solution providers in this earned media communications world just like I put eloquent responses in blue Chi and Maximizer they've been doing the same thing over here aimed at this earned media opportunity and if anything I think that every CEO every CIO every CMO would tell you they understand there's very clear there's a lot of clarity that I can't advertise my way there and I just can't get there by sending 300 promotional email and SMS campaigns you know versus 200 last year I can't promote my way there I can't advertise my way there if I want to influence customer experience customer loyalty and relationship and ultimately customer purchasing behavior I got a not just advertise and promote to them I get to get at what's called influencers right consumers whether they're b2b consumers or b2c consumers I am more and more being influenced and driven on who I listen to who I respect and hold credible and ultimately who I buy from based on people I trust that's that's called an influencer whether that's a reporter an academic a social person a blogger a community leader brands know I got to get to the influencers if I want to get to my customers and that's all about earn so the opportunity to go repeat exactly what I did at Oracle marketing cloud for Paden owned but do it over here and earned was simply too big an opportunity to pass up well first of all I love that one and drill down on scission and specifically and when you your plans are there but let's stay on this mega trencher second because I think you're hitting the nail on the head here because I think this some that you know we actually when we started Silicon angle media seven years ago this was the premise of our business yes we saw that the connected network that's right of social is fueling this new earned area where earned is truly earned yet there's no real website no silver bullets right it's a distributed as tightly coupled Network and there's pockets of it so you know what influence is about the most followers it's about the relationship of the connected consumer yeah who's also a consumer and a producer of content yeah their opinion there and so this is all kind of a new behavioral thing yeah so you go back to you know he earned and I mean the honed and paid and searched and all that stuff did contextual and behavioral absolutely really that's two things that's right the behavior of the crowd you got you can't look further than the Trump election to say whoa who saw that coming that's an example of an earned dynamic I would say that caused people to go well what the heck yeah I should send him a letter for thanking him for making my point so so emphatically for me we're all going exactly right hey what's up her for that crying in there wine in California for sure a blue state but this brings up the dynamic right this is the mega trend that now this earned media component isn't just about ads it's software that's right it's about software and networks and with cloud computing there's an opportunity for people to participate in there so so how how do you guys a minute rephrase it this right how does customers what what's the current pain point I mean what's the top three yeah I'll see you advertising you know I don't want drive traffic to my site that's an old mentality right that's the only thing they can do right now yeah it is looks so again I think it is getting at that at the risk of being repetitive it is okay boy if that's all I do is rely on the big monolithic web infrastructure I've developed the campaign engine that just keeps getting cheaper and cheaper so I keep sending more and more and okay it's programmatic now so I guess I can throw more at Google and Facebook I I'm not saying those aren't important parts of the mix you of course need to continue but they're declining and efficacy there right so not only the decline in efficacy while they increase in spend the cus the consumer right again whether that's a b2b consumer Ibiza is becoming increased don't view him as credible don't view his trustworthy if they've got these big lofty goals in this new digital world we're right the fragmented influence is hard and hard to contain and they just flat-out need to they recognize that the thing that's probably going to be the most important going forward which is solving this puzzle is the thing they've D invested in the most right it's gone from the king of the hill 20 years ago to as a true second-class citizen while they got all drunk on paid advertising and you know more e-commerce the role of the buyers interesting is let me just get your thoughts I'm sure because one of the things that we've observed at silk'n angle and our business model is we do really really well with our I'd sing I don't call my advertise sponsors if you will because we're very community driven with the cube as you know is that we have buy-in from not just CMO yeah in some cases just the head of communications right so the role of PR public relations is a communications function so the thing about social is you have a dynamic of organic and everyone knows organic is the cool right yeah organic growth bottoms up but the interesting thing is communication pros have a top-down command and control mentality yeah so when you blend command and control with organic growth you can actually have both now you can't this seems to be the new power base that's right the comms person which was hey get the press release out there go talk to ten reporters is now a million people yep the CMO would go with agencies to spend a lot of dough on print ads and TV commercials they have to work together well and the chief communication officer is still one of the nice things you know seven out of ten times they're reporting directly to the CMO the other three times they actually appear to the CMO and they report directly the CEO so it's not Adi empowered function it shouldn't it shouldn't be right and then I think that the modern communication organization I'll talk about who they are and then I'll circle back on the pain point because there's some acute pain there that we're trying to address they don't look at it as just PR now to be really clear and I would like this on record to the traditional journalist reporter media never been more important right it's not like they've lacked but even then right who that reporter is on that publication website versus the print versus the broadcast versus their blog versus their Twitter handle versus their Facebook page versus their Instagram account right even that traditional reporter is nine different influences at nine different audiences in nine different media right so they haven't become less important to become far more fragmented yeah that's exactly right and nailing that is is no trivial thing that's got to get done they they they really are they're they're as digital and as modern and as social as everybody else but then you also got to realize boy right these communities are incredibly powerful these these mini bloggers have as much cloud as the New York Times does in this particular area right the social followings these academics these thought leaders the definition of a digital influencer has widened quite a bit above and beyond the core journalist trip but but don't forget that that person's really important so and then you got the consumer influencers and their user-generated content themselves right so that the customer is their own influencer which is really interesting and that's a b2b dynamic as well as a b2c dynamic so that's the world we all of a sudden you know find ourselves in but I think the modern the digital world that you're talking about isn't a b2b versus b2c it's digital it's digital period one yeah concept and it's no motton it's no longer digital communications or digital marketing it's just communications and marketing in the digital world right and that's a that sounds simple that's a pretty fundamental shift now let's go back into though the tools that they have so they're as savvy and is digital as their peers that are running commerce or paid advertising or the website they've really been bereft of toolkits I'm going to give you an example we work with an extremely large one of the four largest beauty products companies in the world and when they do a good new product launch right let's let's look at advertising they will harness data they will develop 30 different audiences right and they will go to discrete tonality creative offer you name it at 30 different you know so they'll do 30 different banner ads they'll do the same thing with social audience they'll do 40 different data-driven audiences that get discrete touch content an email to do 50 or 60 right 50 or 60 different data-driven segments and even in the website they'll say hey Jon's profile that's profile seven Kevin's profile is profile 12 you will see a completely different website than I will based on data driven right what are they doing Communications one press release and one infographic goes to all 12,000 communication outlets no data no versioning right no nothing so this concept of the right version of the content to the right audience at the right time I'm putting you know in advertising and in commerce on the website I'm talking to soccer moms vs. sexy grandmas versus Wall Street women very different for my beauty products in communications I'm talking to all of them the same which is kind of crazy because the emulators would be a labor driven market - that's right - call it arms and legs right which is what it yeah yeah and a head and arms and legs and a lot of people kind of reaching out but now the trend is to have a much more sass that's exactly right and and and I don't have the platform to actually go do that right so as far as some of the pain we're trying to provide now with our communication cloud just like with the other marketing clouds I don't have I can actually do data-driven intelligent messaging and content delivery to the audience to the influencers that get at the discrete audiences just like I do the data-driven direct communication to the end users themselves probably more importantly I'll stick with my example for a sec John that beauty company at fortune 500 Beauty company they get Rachel who is the head fashion reporter on the fashion section New York times.com right Rachel covered and Rachel embedded my press release on my infographic homerun pop the champagne right it's like okay but well there's two million people that went to that fashion section in New York Times comm today when she covered right how many of them actually read the content and picked it up don't know how many of them actually engaged in it read the infographic click the video click the links don't know who were they from a demographic psychographic sociographic right behavioral don't know and probably most importantly what did they do after they read it did they go to the desired shopping cart or the right community page or back to the website or unit was there any actual digital behavior driven from that bigger meeting full of discovery data the or it stops at I got picked up by the reporter yeah and I have no idea how many of the two million people were influenced covered engaged right etcetera and no idea about the behavior that I took so the link between the influencer comes and the end-user has never been closed that's the second part of the pain point that really fixes now we are fixing the gap between the influencer and and the end user and you're going to see us call that the influencer graph John you'll see a you'll see a press release a targeted one that's data driven and very rich media go out around the influencer graph because if we can start saying hey John's my end user customer now I know right quantitatively with data that I can optimize in real time which influencers matter which reporters which academics which bloggers in which channels in which media and which content as people have different on fluentd rankings in certain contexts you got it and all that's a black hole we know it we have no idea how to measure it make it data-driven make it contextual and optimize it in real time with a digital platform so that this command-and-control CCO who thinks this way now actually has his his or her system of record to actually go execute this way as Maslov Harkavy needs as that sounds because the commerce paid and owned guys have had this for a while this is a this is like discovering fire here for the chief communications officer because they've never had their data and tech enablement platform to do this the way the other guys have so that's that's number two and the number three and I think this is really important is we all know that communicate I want I need to measure and optimize the comms function the way I just talked about it we all know that if done right it amplifies the bejesus out of the owned and the paid - yeah you shouldn't be thinking about them in silos but there's no way to measure that if I did a really good job and earned look at the impact it have in the efficacy on that massive page budget now mutually exclusive and there's a relationship between them because in social and communities collaboration that's a four linchpin it is you cannot articulate just how important that is and until tech vendors put the apps the api's the data and then the right through the ID syncs together you can't measure it right and as fundamental as that sounds that's why what's happened over there in Adobe Oracle Salesforce land had to happen and it's why what we're doing here incision line has to happen so that not only can coms catch up but comms can communicate in that data and play an active role in that - an active role because no leaders happen is they're going to realize holy smokes the paid performed here without their and the paid performed here with the earn and quite frankly that earned outperformed the paid right so we're not going to be a participant role is going to be a I'm going to resume my rightful place at the head of that you're the head of that tribe on our second segment when it get more indecision and specific solution but in this segment on kind of wrapping up the big megatrend Housley social and the technology and network effect of social combined with the data combined with the fact that comms communications right is now an active leader and important role in the creative Nick that's right I've earned that's right and integrating in page I can have a cohesive but decoupled programs it's not silver bullet either well pleasure rising tide floats all but I've earned has been under developed under developed under invested in under tech enabled under date enabled and really that's what it gets to is the people in charge understand that they didn't quite have the data ten tools to do it the data the tech tools are now available and now the the industry just got to kind of get up the sophistication curve so final questions in this segment is where's the progress bar on this sector how early is it first inning bottom of the first second inning and to there's always in these early adopter markets that certainly that you saw I believe left the Oracle for it but this is an I agree by the way is a great great opportunity they're always the champions internally who can see it - yeah how where's the progress bar and what's the advice to the folks that are inside these companies who actually have the religion say this is the future and have to communicate it to the rest of the kink unfortunately the thinking the thought leadership bar is probably in the third inning to get it uh doing something about it and going from good thinking to good practitioner ship and execution is retraining first out the first out to the first pitch in the first inning you know of the first game of the season we're literally at ground one the good news is though is they're not going to try to go convince the CFO from a money or the CIO from a resource or the CEO from a strategy this whole I keep saying is this data tech and measurement transformation the corporation no matter what the corporation is invested it in sales look what happened they invested in the service look what happened they invested in it and paid look what happened they've invested in it known so the good news is is while they are at the very very very beginning of the ball game they're literally the last function inside the corporation to actually go do it and they don't have evangelism around the benefit of this type of transformation it's worked in every other area so while they're the very beginning they want to convince anybody it's a good idea everybody else that's down the hall and sits around the CEOs table has been through that transformation so there's not that evangelism it's just now his or her tits operationalize they do some results that's on the right table and and it and it's shown results in all these other lines of business so there's not this fundamental disbelief that it won't show results in the communications line of business there's actually quite the opposite there's heavy belief that it will because it has shown right it has shown results and all these other lines of business so yeah especially look is that's obvious - it's like okay we got to do this yeah that they should be able to move faster does this caterpillar should turn into a butterfly really fast because everybody's thinking about it the text in place and it's worked in other places but we are really really really at the very beginning it's exciting Kevin Ackroyd CEO of sisian year inside our studio talking about the landscape of really digital changing and how earned media blogs and folks like silk'n angle and others who actually producing original content an engaging audiences now an opportunity to convert over on this new market shift going on big mega trend we back with segments to talk about the company and their solution and technology we're interesting to get that perspective Kevin thanks for joining us here in the palace news thanks for watching thank you [Music]

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> OpenAI The company, and ChatGPT have taken the world by storm. Microsoft reportedly is investing an additional 10 billion dollars into the company. But in our view, while the hype around ChatGPT is justified, we don't believe OpenAI will lock up the market with its first mover advantage. Rather, we believe that success in this market will be directly proportional to the quality and quantity of data that a technology company has at its disposal, and the compute power that it could deploy to run its system. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we unpack the excitement around ChatGPT, and debate the premise that the company's early entry into the space may not confer winner take all advantage to OpenAI. And to do so, we welcome CUBE collaborator, alum, Sarbjeet Johal, (chuckles) and John Furrier, co-host of the Cube. Great to see you Sarbjeet, John. Really appreciate you guys coming to the program. >> Great to be on. >> Okay, so what is ChatGPT? Well, actually we asked ChatGPT, what is ChatGPT? So here's what it said. ChatGPT is a state-of-the-art language model developed by OpenAI that can generate human-like text. It could be fine tuned for a variety of language tasks, such as conversation, summarization, and language translation. So I asked it, give it to me in 50 words or less. How did it do? Anything to add? >> Yeah, think it did good. It's large language model, like previous models, but it started applying the transformers sort of mechanism to focus on what prompt you have given it to itself. And then also the what answer it gave you in the first, sort of, one sentence or two sentences, and then introspect on itself, like what I have already said to you. And so just work on that. So it it's self sort of focus if you will. It does, the transformers help the large language models to do that. >> So to your point, it's a large language model, and GPT stands for generative pre-trained transformer. >> And if you put the definition back up there again, if you put it back up on the screen, let's see it back up. Okay, it actually missed the large, word large. So one of the problems with ChatGPT, it's not always accurate. It's actually a large language model, and it says state of the art language model. And if you look at Google, Google has dominated AI for many times and they're well known as being the best at this. And apparently Google has their own large language model, LLM, in play and have been holding it back to release because of backlash on the accuracy. Like just in that example you showed is a great point. They got almost right, but they missed the key word. >> You know what's funny about that John, is I had previously asked it in my prompt to give me it in less than a hundred words, and it was too long, I said I was too long for Breaking Analysis, and there it went into the fact that it's a large language model. So it largely, it gave me a really different answer the, for both times. So, but it's still pretty amazing for those of you who haven't played with it yet. And one of the best examples that I saw was Ben Charrington from This Week In ML AI podcast. And I stumbled on this thanks to Brian Gracely, who was listening to one of his Cloudcasts. Basically what Ben did is he took, he prompted ChatGPT to interview ChatGPT, and he simply gave the system the prompts, and then he ran the questions and answers into this avatar builder and sped it up 2X so it didn't sound like a machine. And voila, it was amazing. So John is ChatGPT going to take over as a cube host? >> Well, I was thinking, we get the questions in advance sometimes from PR people. We should actually just plug it in ChatGPT, add it to our notes, and saying, "Is this good enough for you? Let's ask the real question." So I think, you know, I think there's a lot of heavy lifting that gets done. I think the ChatGPT is a phenomenal revolution. I think it highlights the use case. Like that example we showed earlier. It gets most of it right. So it's directionally correct and it feels like it's an answer, but it's not a hundred percent accurate. And I think that's where people are seeing value in it. Writing marketing, copy, brainstorming, guest list, gift list for somebody. Write me some lyrics to a song. Give me a thesis about healthcare policy in the United States. It'll do a bang up job, and then you got to go in and you can massage it. So we're going to do three quarters of the work. That's why plagiarism and schools are kind of freaking out. And that's why Microsoft put 10 billion in, because why wouldn't this be a feature of Word, or the OS to help it do stuff on behalf of the user. So linguistically it's a beautiful thing. You can input a string and get a good answer. It's not a search result. >> And we're going to get your take on on Microsoft and, but it kind of levels the playing- but ChatGPT writes better than I do, Sarbjeet, and I know you have some good examples too. You mentioned the Reed Hastings example. >> Yeah, I was listening to Reed Hastings fireside chat with ChatGPT, and the answers were coming as sort of voice, in the voice format. And it was amazing what, he was having very sort of philosophy kind of talk with the ChatGPT, the longer sentences, like he was going on, like, just like we are talking, he was talking for like almost two minutes and then ChatGPT was answering. It was not one sentence question, and then a lot of answers from ChatGPT and yeah, you're right. I, this is our ability. I've been thinking deep about this since yesterday, we talked about, like, we want to do this segment. The data is fed into the data model. It can be the current data as well, but I think that, like, models like ChatGPT, other companies will have those too. They can, they're democratizing the intelligence, but they're not creating intelligence yet, definitely yet I can say that. They will give you all the finite answers. Like, okay, how do you do this for loop in Java, versus, you know, C sharp, and as a programmer you can do that, in, but they can't tell you that, how to write a new algorithm or write a new search algorithm for you. They cannot create a secretive code for you to- >> Not yet. >> Have competitive advantage. >> Not yet, not yet. >> but you- >> Can Google do that today? >> No one really can. The reasoning side of the data is, we talked about at our Supercloud event, with Zhamak Dehghani who's was CEO of, now of Nextdata. This next wave of data intelligence is going to come from entrepreneurs that are probably cross discipline, computer science and some other discipline. But they're going to be new things, for example, data, metadata, and data. It's hard to do reasoning like a human being, so that needs more data to train itself. So I think the first gen of this training module for the large language model they have is a corpus of text. Lot of that's why blog posts are, but the facts are wrong and sometimes out of context, because that contextual reasoning takes time, it takes intelligence. So machines need to become intelligent, and so therefore they need to be trained. So you're going to start to see, I think, a lot of acceleration on training the data sets. And again, it's only as good as the data you can get. And again, proprietary data sets will be a huge winner. Anyone who's got a large corpus of content, proprietary content like theCUBE or SiliconANGLE as a publisher will benefit from this. Large FinTech companies, anyone with large proprietary data will probably be a big winner on this generative AI wave, because it just, it will eat that up, and turn that back into something better. So I think there's going to be a lot of interesting things to look at here. And certainly productivity's going to be off the charts for vanilla and the internet is going to get swarmed with vanilla content. So if you're in the content business, and you're an original content producer of any kind, you're going to be not vanilla, so you're going to be better. So I think there's so much at play Dave (indistinct). >> I think the playing field has been risen, so we- >> Risen and leveled? >> Yeah, and leveled to certain extent. So it's now like that few people as consumers, as consumers of AI, we will have a advantage and others cannot have that advantage. So it will be democratized. That's, I'm sure about that. But if you take the example of calculator, when the calculator came in, and a lot of people are, "Oh, people can't do math anymore because calculator is there." right? So it's a similar sort of moment, just like a calculator for the next level. But, again- >> I see it more like open source, Sarbjeet, because like if you think about what ChatGPT's doing, you do a query and it comes from somewhere the value of a post from ChatGPT is just a reuse of AI. The original content accent will be come from a human. So if I lay out a paragraph from ChatGPT, did some heavy lifting on some facts, I check the facts, save me about maybe- >> Yeah, it's productive. >> An hour writing, and then I write a killer two, three sentences of, like, sharp original thinking or critical analysis. I then took that body of work, open source content, and then laid something on top of it. >> And Sarbjeet's example is a good one, because like if the calculator kids don't do math as well anymore, the slide rule, remember we had slide rules as kids, remember we first started using Waze, you know, we were this minority and you had an advantage over other drivers. Now Waze is like, you know, social traffic, you know, navigation, everybody had, you know- >> All the back roads are crowded. >> They're car crowded. (group laughs) Exactly. All right, let's, let's move on. What about this notion that futurist Ray Amara put forth and really Amara's Law that we're showing here, it's, the law is we, you know, "We tend to overestimate the effect of technology in the short run and underestimate it in the long run." Is that the case, do you think, with ChatGPT? What do you think Sarbjeet? >> I think that's true actually. There's a lot of, >> We don't debate this. >> There's a lot of awe, like when people see the results from ChatGPT, they say what, what the heck? Like, it can do this? But then if you use it more and more and more, and I ask the set of similar question, not the same question, and it gives you like same answer. It's like reading from the same bucket of text in, the interior read (indistinct) where the ChatGPT, you will see that in some couple of segments. It's very, it sounds so boring that the ChatGPT is coming out the same two sentences every time. So it is kind of good, but it's not as good as people think it is right now. But we will have, go through this, you know, hype sort of cycle and get realistic with it. And then in the long term, I think it's a great thing in the short term, it's not something which will (indistinct) >> What's your counter point? You're saying it's not. >> I, no I think the question was, it's hyped up in the short term and not it's underestimated long term. That's what I think what he said, quote. >> Yes, yeah. That's what he said. >> Okay, I think that's wrong with this, because this is a unique, ChatGPT is a unique kind of impact and it's very generational. People have been comparing it, I have been comparing to the internet, like the web, web browser Mosaic and Netscape, right, Navigator. I mean, I clearly still remember the days seeing Navigator for the first time, wow. And there weren't not many sites you could go to, everyone typed in, you know, cars.com, you know. >> That (indistinct) wasn't that overestimated, the overhyped at the beginning and underestimated. >> No, it was, it was underestimated long run, people thought. >> But that Amara's law. >> That's what is. >> No, they said overestimated? >> Overestimated near term underestimated- overhyped near term, underestimated long term. I got, right I mean? >> Well, I, yeah okay, so I would then agree, okay then- >> We were off the charts about the internet in the early days, and it actually exceeded our expectations. >> Well there were people who were, like, poo-pooing it early on. So when the browser came out, people were like, "Oh, the web's a toy for kids." I mean, in 1995 the web was a joke, right? So '96, you had online populations growing, so you had structural changes going on around the browser, internet population. And then that replaced other things, direct mail, other business activities that were once analog then went to the web, kind of read only as you, as we always talk about. So I think that's a moment where the hype long term, the smart money, and the smart industry experts all get the long term. And in this case, there's more poo-pooing in the short term. "Ah, it's not a big deal, it's just AI." I've heard many people poo-pooing ChatGPT, and a lot of smart people saying, "No this is next gen, this is different and it's only going to get better." So I think people are estimating a big long game on this one. >> So you're saying it's bifurcated. There's those who say- >> Yes. >> Okay, all right, let's get to the heart of the premise, and possibly the debate for today's episode. Will OpenAI's early entry into the market confer sustainable competitive advantage for the company. And if you look at the history of tech, the technology industry, it's kind of littered with first mover failures. Altair, IBM, Tandy, Commodore, they and Apple even, they were really early in the PC game. They took a backseat to Dell who came in the scene years later with a better business model. Netscape, you were just talking about, was all the rage in Silicon Valley, with the first browser, drove up all the housing prices out here. AltaVista was the first search engine to really, you know, index full text. >> Owned by Dell, I mean DEC. >> Owned by Digital. >> Yeah, Digital Equipment >> Compaq bought it. And of course as an aside, Digital, they wanted to showcase their hardware, right? Their super computer stuff. And then so Friendster and MySpace, they came before Facebook. The iPhone certainly wasn't the first mobile device. So lots of failed examples, but there are some recent successes like AWS and cloud. >> You could say smartphone. So I mean. >> Well I know, and you can, we can parse this so we'll debate it. Now Twitter, you could argue, had first mover advantage. You kind of gave me that one John. Bitcoin and crypto clearly had first mover advantage, and sustaining that. Guys, will OpenAI make it to the list on the right with ChatGPT, what do you think? >> I think categorically as a company, it probably won't, but as a category, I think what they're doing will, so OpenAI as a company, they get funding, there's power dynamics involved. Microsoft put a billion dollars in early on, then they just pony it up. Now they're reporting 10 billion more. So, like, if the browsers, Microsoft had competitive advantage over Netscape, and used monopoly power, and convicted by the Department of Justice for killing Netscape with their monopoly, Netscape should have had won that battle, but Microsoft killed it. In this case, Microsoft's not killing it, they're buying into it. So I think the embrace extend Microsoft power here makes OpenAI vulnerable for that one vendor solution. So the AI as a company might not make the list, but the category of what this is, large language model AI, is probably will be on the right hand side. >> Okay, we're going to come back to the government intervention and maybe do some comparisons, but what are your thoughts on this premise here? That, it will basically set- put forth the premise that it, that ChatGPT, its early entry into the market will not confer competitive advantage to >> For OpenAI. >> To Open- Yeah, do you agree with that? >> I agree with that actually. It, because Google has been at it, and they have been holding back, as John said because of the scrutiny from the Fed, right, so- >> And privacy too. >> And the privacy and the accuracy as well. But I think Sam Altman and the company on those guys, right? They have put this in a hasty way out there, you know, because it makes mistakes, and there are a lot of questions around the, sort of, where the content is coming from. You saw that as your example, it just stole the content, and without your permission, you know? >> Yeah. So as quick this aside- >> And it codes on people's behalf and the, those codes are wrong. So there's a lot of, sort of, false information it's putting out there. So it's a very vulnerable thing to do what Sam Altman- >> So even though it'll get better, others will compete. >> So look, just side note, a term which Reid Hoffman used a little bit. Like he said, it's experimental launch, like, you know, it's- >> It's pretty damn good. >> It is clever because according to Sam- >> It's more than clever. It's good. >> It's awesome, if you haven't used it. I mean you write- you read what it writes and you go, "This thing writes so well, it writes so much better than you." >> The human emotion drives that too. I think that's a big thing. But- >> I Want to add one more- >> Make your last point. >> Last one. Okay. So, but he's still holding back. He's conducting quite a few interviews. If you want to get the gist of it, there's an interview with StrictlyVC interview from yesterday with Sam Altman. Listen to that one it's an eye opening what they want- where they want to take it. But my last one I want to make it on this point is that Satya Nadella yesterday did an interview with Wall Street Journal. I think he was doing- >> You were not impressed. >> I was not impressed because he was pushing it too much. So Sam Altman's holding back so there's less backlash. >> Got 10 billion reasons to push. >> I think he's almost- >> Microsoft just laid off 10000 people. Hey ChatGPT, find me a job. You know like. (group laughs) >> He's overselling it to an extent that I think it will backfire on Microsoft. And he's over promising a lot of stuff right now, I think. I don't know why he's very jittery about all these things. And he did the same thing during Ignite as well. So he said, "Oh, this AI will write code for you and this and that." Like you called him out- >> The hyperbole- >> During your- >> from Satya Nadella, he's got a lot of hyperbole. (group talks over each other) >> All right, Let's, go ahead. >> Well, can I weigh in on the whole- >> Yeah, sure. >> Microsoft thing on whether OpenAI, here's the take on this. I think it's more like the browser moment to me, because I could relate to that experience with ChatG, personally, emotionally, when I saw that, and I remember vividly- >> You mean that aha moment (indistinct). >> Like this is obviously the future. Anything else in the old world is dead, website's going to be everywhere. It was just instant dot connection for me. And a lot of other smart people who saw this. Lot of people by the way, didn't see it. Someone said the web's a toy. At the company I was worked for at the time, Hewlett Packard, they like, they could have been in, they had invented HTML, and so like all this stuff was, like, they just passed, the web was just being passed over. But at that time, the browser got better, more websites came on board. So the structural advantage there was online web usage was growing, online user population. So that was growing exponentially with the rise of the Netscape browser. So OpenAI could stay on the right side of your list as durable, if they leverage the category that they're creating, can get the scale. And if they can get the scale, just like Twitter, that failed so many times that they still hung around. So it was a product that was always successful, right? So I mean, it should have- >> You're right, it was terrible, we kept coming back. >> The fail whale, but it still grew. So OpenAI has that moment. They could do it if Microsoft doesn't meddle too much with too much power as a vendor. They could be the Netscape Navigator, without the anti-competitive behavior of somebody else. So to me, they have the pole position. So they have an opportunity. So if not, if they don't execute, then there's opportunity. There's not a lot of barriers to entry, vis-a-vis say the CapEx of say a cloud company like AWS. You can't replicate that, Many have tried, but I think you can replicate OpenAI. >> And we're going to talk about that. Okay, so real quick, I want to bring in some ETR data. This isn't an ETR heavy segment, only because this so new, you know, they haven't coverage yet, but they do cover AI. So basically what we're seeing here is a slide on the vertical axis's net score, which is a measure of spending momentum, and in the horizontal axis's is presence in the dataset. Think of it as, like, market presence. And in the insert right there, you can see how the dots are plotted, the two columns. And so, but the key point here that we want to make, there's a bunch of companies on the left, is he like, you know, DataRobot and C3 AI and some others, but the big whales, Google, AWS, Microsoft, are really dominant in this market. So that's really the key takeaway that, can we- >> I notice IBM is way low. >> Yeah, IBM's low, and actually bring that back up and you, but then you see Oracle who actually is injecting. So I guess that's the other point is, you're not necessarily going to go buy AI, and you know, build your own AI, you're going to, it's going to be there and, it, Salesforce is going to embed it into its platform, the SaaS companies, and you're going to purchase AI. You're not necessarily going to build it. But some companies obviously are. >> I mean to quote IBM's general manager Rob Thomas, "You can't have AI with IA." information architecture and David Flynn- >> You can't Have AI without IA >> without, you can't have AI without IA. You can't have, if you have an Information Architecture, you then can power AI. Yesterday David Flynn, with Hammersmith, was on our Supercloud. He was pointing out that the relationship of storage, where you store things, also impacts the data and stressablity, and Zhamak from Nextdata, she was pointing out that same thing. So the data problem factors into all this too, Dave. >> So you got the big cloud and internet giants, they're all poised to go after this opportunity. Microsoft is investing up to 10 billion. Google's code red, which was, you know, the headline in the New York Times. Of course Apple is there and several alternatives in the market today. Guys like Chinchilla, Bloom, and there's a company Jasper and several others, and then Lena Khan looms large and the government's around the world, EU, US, China, all taking notice before the market really is coalesced around a single player. You know, John, you mentioned Netscape, they kind of really, the US government was way late to that game. It was kind of game over. And Netscape, I remember Barksdale was like, "Eh, we're going to be selling software in the enterprise anyway." and then, pshew, the company just dissipated. So, but it looks like the US government, especially with Lena Khan, they're changing the definition of antitrust and what the cause is to go after people, and they're really much more aggressive. It's only what, two years ago that (indistinct). >> Yeah, the problem I have with the federal oversight is this, they're always like late to the game, and they're slow to catch up. So in other words, they're working on stuff that should have been solved a year and a half, two years ago around some of the social networks hiding behind some of the rules around open web back in the days, and I think- >> But they're like 15 years late to that. >> Yeah, and now they got this new thing on top of it. So like, I just worry about them getting their fingers. >> But there's only two years, you know, OpenAI. >> No, but the thing (indistinct). >> No, they're still fighting other battles. But the problem with government is that they're going to label Big Tech as like a evil thing like Pharma, it's like smoke- >> You know Lena Khan wants to kill Big Tech, there's no question. >> So I think Big Tech is getting a very seriously bad rap. And I think anything that the government does that shades darkness on tech, is politically motivated in most cases. You can almost look at everything, and my 80 20 rule is in play here. 80% of the government activity around tech is bullshit, it's politically motivated, and the 20% is probably relevant, but off the mark and not organized. >> Well market forces have always been the determining factor of success. The governments, you know, have been pretty much failed. I mean you look at IBM's antitrust, that, what did that do? The market ultimately beat them. You look at Microsoft back in the day, right? Windows 95 was peaking, the government came in. But you know, like you said, they missed the web, right, and >> so they were hanging on- >> There's nobody in government >> to Windows. >> that actually knows- >> And so, you, I think you're right. It's market forces that are going to determine this. But Sarbjeet, what do you make of Microsoft's big bet here, you weren't impressed with with Nadella. How do you think, where are they going to apply it? Is this going to be a Hail Mary for Bing, or is it going to be applied elsewhere? What do you think. >> They are saying that they will, sort of, weave this into their products, office products, productivity and also to write code as well, developer productivity as well. That's a big play for them. But coming back to your antitrust sort of comments, right? I believe the, your comment was like, oh, fed was late 10 years or 15 years earlier, but now they're two years. But things are moving very fast now as compared to they used to move. >> So two years is like 10 Years. >> Yeah, two years is like 10 years. Just want to make that point. (Dave laughs) This thing is going like wildfire. Any new tech which comes in that I think they're going against distribution channels. Lina Khan has commented time and again that the marketplace model is that she wants to have some grip on. Cloud marketplaces are a kind of monopolistic kind of way. >> I don't, I don't see this, I don't see a Chat AI. >> You told me it's not Bing, you had an interesting comment. >> No, no. First of all, this is great from Microsoft. If you're Microsoft- >> Why? >> Because Microsoft doesn't have the AI chops that Google has, right? Google is got so much core competency on how they run their search, how they run their backends, their cloud, even though they don't get a lot of cloud market share in the enterprise, they got a kick ass cloud cause they needed one. >> Totally. >> They've invented SRE. I mean Google's development and engineering chops are off the scales, right? Amazon's got some good chops, but Google's got like 10 times more chops than AWS in my opinion. Cloud's a whole different story. Microsoft gets AI, they get a playbook, they get a product they can render into, the not only Bing, productivity software, helping people write papers, PowerPoint, also don't forget the cloud AI can super help. We had this conversation on our Supercloud event, where AI's going to do a lot of the heavy lifting around understanding observability and managing service meshes, to managing microservices, to turning on and off applications, and or maybe writing code in real time. So there's a plethora of use cases for Microsoft to deploy this. combined with their R and D budgets, they can then turbocharge more research, build on it. So I think this gives them a car in the game, Google may have pole position with AI, but this puts Microsoft right in the game, and they already have a lot of stuff going on. But this just, I mean everything gets lifted up. Security, cloud, productivity suite, everything. >> What's under the hood at Google, and why aren't they talking about it? I mean they got to be freaked out about this. No? Or do they have kind of a magic bullet? >> I think they have the, they have the chops definitely. Magic bullet, I don't know where they are, as compared to the ChatGPT 3 or 4 models. Like they, but if you look at the online sort of activity and the videos put out there from Google folks, Google technology folks, that's account you should look at if you are looking there, they have put all these distinctions what ChatGPT 3 has used, they have been talking about for a while as well. So it's not like it's a secret thing that you cannot replicate. As you said earlier, like in the beginning of this segment, that anybody who has more data and the capacity to process that data, which Google has both, I think they will win this. >> Obviously living in Palo Alto where the Google founders are, and Google's headquarters next town over we have- >> We're so close to them. We have inside information on some of the thinking and that hasn't been reported by any outlet yet. And that is, is that, from what I'm hearing from my sources, is Google has it, they don't want to release it for many reasons. One is it might screw up their search monopoly, one, two, they're worried about the accuracy, 'cause Google will get sued. 'Cause a lot of people are jamming on this ChatGPT as, "Oh it does everything for me." when it's clearly not a hundred percent accurate all the time. >> So Lina Kahn is looming, and so Google's like be careful. >> Yeah so Google's just like, this is the third, could be a third rail. >> But the first thing you said is a concern. >> Well no. >> The disruptive (indistinct) >> What they will do is do a Waymo kind of thing, where they spin out a separate company. >> They're doing that. >> The discussions happening, they're going to spin out the separate company and put it over there, and saying, "This is AI, got search over there, don't touch that search, 'cause that's where all the revenue is." (chuckles) >> So, okay, so that's how they deal with the Clay Christensen dilemma. What's the business model here? I mean it's not advertising, right? Is it to charge you for a query? What, how do you make money at this? >> It's a good question, I mean my thinking is, first of all, it's cool to type stuff in and see a paper get written, or write a blog post, or gimme a marketing slogan for this or that or write some code. I think the API side of the business will be critical. And I think Howie Xu, I know you're going to reference some of his comments yesterday on Supercloud, I think this brings a whole 'nother user interface into technology consumption. I think the business model, not yet clear, but it will probably be some sort of either API and developer environment or just a straight up free consumer product, with some sort of freemium backend thing for business. >> And he was saying too, it's natural language is the way in which you're going to interact with these systems. >> I think it's APIs, it's APIs, APIs, APIs, because these people who are cooking up these models, and it takes a lot of compute power to train these and to, for inference as well. Somebody did the analysis on the how many cents a Google search costs to Google, and how many cents the ChatGPT query costs. It's, you know, 100x or something on that. You can take a look at that. >> A 100x on which side? >> You're saying two orders of magnitude more expensive for ChatGPT >> Much more, yeah. >> Than for Google. >> It's very expensive. >> So Google's got the data, they got the infrastructure and they got, you're saying they got the cost (indistinct) >> No actually it's a simple query as well, but they are trying to put together the answers, and they're going through a lot more data versus index data already, you know. >> Let me clarify, you're saying that Google's version of ChatGPT is more efficient? >> No, I'm, I'm saying Google search results. >> Ah, search results. >> What are used to today, but cheaper. >> But that, does that, is that going to confer advantage to Google's large language (indistinct)? >> It will, because there were deep science (indistinct). >> Google, I don't think Google search is doing a large language model on their search, it's keyword search. You know, what's the weather in Santa Cruz? Or how, what's the weather going to be? Or you know, how do I find this? Now they have done a smart job of doing some things with those queries, auto complete, re direct navigation. But it's, it's not entity. It's not like, "Hey, what's Dave Vellante thinking this week in Breaking Analysis?" ChatGPT might get that, because it'll get your Breaking Analysis, it'll synthesize it. There'll be some, maybe some clips. It'll be like, you know, I mean. >> Well I got to tell you, I asked ChatGPT to, like, I said, I'm going to enter a transcript of a discussion I had with Nir Zuk, the CTO of Palo Alto Networks, And I want you to write a 750 word blog. I never input the transcript. It wrote a 750 word blog. It attributed quotes to him, and it just pulled a bunch of stuff that, and said, okay, here it is. It talked about Supercloud, it defined Supercloud. >> It's made, it makes you- >> Wow, But it was a big lie. It was fraudulent, but still, blew me away. >> Again, vanilla content and non accurate content. So we are going to see a surge of misinformation on steroids, but I call it the vanilla content. Wow, that's just so boring, (indistinct). >> There's so many dangers. >> Make your point, cause we got to, almost out of time. >> Okay, so the consumption, like how do you consume this thing. As humans, we are consuming it and we are, like, getting a nicely, like, surprisingly shocked, you know, wow, that's cool. It's going to increase productivity and all that stuff, right? And on the danger side as well, the bad actors can take hold of it and create fake content and we have the fake sort of intelligence, if you go out there. So that's one thing. The second thing is, we are as humans are consuming this as language. Like we read that, we listen to it, whatever format we consume that is, but the ultimate usage of that will be when the machines can take that output from likes of ChatGPT, and do actions based on that. The robots can work, the robot can paint your house, we were talking about, right? Right now we can't do that. >> Data apps. >> So the data has to be ingested by the machines. It has to be digestible by the machines. And the machines cannot digest unorganized data right now, we will get better on the ingestion side as well. So we are getting better. >> Data, reasoning, insights, and action. >> I like that mall, paint my house. >> So, okay- >> By the way, that means drones that'll come in. Spray painting your house. >> Hey, it wasn't too long ago that robots couldn't climb stairs, as I like to point out. Okay, and of course it's no surprise the venture capitalists are lining up to eat at the trough, as I'd like to say. Let's hear, you'd referenced this earlier, John, let's hear what AI expert Howie Xu said at the Supercloud event, about what it takes to clone ChatGPT. Please, play the clip. >> So one of the VCs actually asked me the other day, right? "Hey, how much money do I need to spend, invest to get a, you know, another shot to the openAI sort of the level." You know, I did a (indistinct) >> Line up. >> A hundred million dollar is the order of magnitude that I came up with, right? You know, not a billion, not 10 million, right? So a hundred- >> Guys a hundred million dollars, that's an astoundingly low figure. What do you make of it? >> I was in an interview with, I was interviewing, I think he said hundred million or so, but in the hundreds of millions, not a billion right? >> You were trying to get him up, you were like "Hundreds of millions." >> Well I think, I- >> He's like, eh, not 10, not a billion. >> Well first of all, Howie Xu's an expert machine learning. He's at Zscaler, he's a machine learning AI guy. But he comes from VMware, he's got his technology pedigrees really off the chart. Great friend of theCUBE and kind of like a CUBE analyst for us. And he's smart. He's right. I think the barriers to entry from a dollar standpoint are lower than say the CapEx required to compete with AWS. Clearly, the CapEx spending to build all the tech for the run a cloud. >> And you don't need a huge sales force. >> And in some case apps too, it's the same thing. But I think it's not that hard. >> But am I right about that? You don't need a huge sales force either. It's, what, you know >> If the product's good, it will sell, this is a new era. The better mouse trap will win. This is the new economics in software, right? So- >> Because you look at the amount of money Lacework, and Snyk, Snowflake, Databrooks. Look at the amount of money they've raised. I mean it's like a billion dollars before they get to IPO or more. 'Cause they need promotion, they need go to market. You don't need (indistinct) >> OpenAI's been working on this for multiple five years plus it's, hasn't, wasn't born yesterday. Took a lot of years to get going. And Sam is depositioning all the success, because he's trying to manage expectations, To your point Sarbjeet, earlier. It's like, yeah, he's trying to "Whoa, whoa, settle down everybody, (Dave laughs) it's not that great." because he doesn't want to fall into that, you know, hero and then get taken down, so. >> It may take a 100 million or 150 or 200 million to train the model. But to, for the inference to, yeah to for the inference machine, It will take a lot more, I believe. >> Give it, so imagine, >> Because- >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Go ahead. But because it consumes a lot more compute cycles and it's certain level of storage and everything, right, which they already have. So I think to compute is different. To frame the model is a different cost. But to run the business is different, because I think 100 million can go into just fighting the Fed. >> Well there's a flywheel too. >> Oh that's (indistinct) >> (indistinct) >> We are running the business, right? >> It's an interesting number, but it's also kind of, like, context to it. So here, a hundred million spend it, you get there, but you got to factor in the fact that the ways companies win these days is critical mass scale, hitting a flywheel. If they can keep that flywheel of the value that they got going on and get better, you can almost imagine a marketplace where, hey, we have proprietary data, we're SiliconANGLE in theCUBE. We have proprietary content, CUBE videos, transcripts. Well wouldn't it be great if someone in a marketplace could sell a module for us, right? We buy that, Amazon's thing and things like that. So if they can get a marketplace going where you can apply to data sets that may be proprietary, you can start to see this become bigger. And so I think the key barriers to entry is going to be success. I'll give you an example, Reddit. Reddit is successful and it's hard to copy, not because of the software. >> They built the moat. >> Because you can, buy Reddit open source software and try To compete. >> They built the moat with their community. >> Their community, their scale, their user expectation. Twitter, we referenced earlier, that thing should have gone under the first two years, but there was such a great emotional product. People would tolerate the fail whale. And then, you know, well that was a whole 'nother thing. >> Then a plane landed in (John laughs) the Hudson and it was over. >> I think verticals, a lot of verticals will build applications using these models like for lawyers, for doctors, for scientists, for content creators, for- >> So you'll have many hundreds of millions of dollars investments that are going to be seeping out. If, all right, we got to wrap, if you had to put odds on it that that OpenAI is going to be the leader, maybe not a winner take all leader, but like you look at like Amazon and cloud, they're not winner take all, these aren't necessarily winner take all markets. It's not necessarily a zero sum game, but let's call it winner take most. What odds would you give that open AI 10 years from now will be in that position. >> If I'm 0 to 10 kind of thing? >> Yeah, it's like horse race, 3 to 1, 2 to 1, even money, 10 to 1, 50 to 1. >> Maybe 2 to 1, >> 2 to 1, that's pretty low odds. That's basically saying they're the favorite, they're the front runner. Would you agree with that? >> I'd say 4 to 1. >> Yeah, I was going to say I'm like a 5 to 1, 7 to 1 type of person, 'cause I'm a skeptic with, you know, there's so much competition, but- >> I think they're definitely the leader. I mean you got to say, I mean. >> Oh there's no question. There's no question about it. >> The question is can they execute? >> They're not Friendster, is what you're saying. >> They're not Friendster and they're more like Twitter and Reddit where they have momentum. If they can execute on the product side, and if they don't stumble on that, they will continue to have the lead. >> If they say stay neutral, as Sam is, has been saying, that, hey, Microsoft is one of our partners, if you look at their company model, how they have structured the company, then they're going to pay back to the investors, like Microsoft is the biggest one, up to certain, like by certain number of years, they're going to pay back from all the money they make, and after that, they're going to give the money back to the public, to the, I don't know who they give it to, like non-profit or something. (indistinct) >> Okay, the odds are dropping. (group talks over each other) That's a good point though >> Actually they might have done that to fend off the criticism of this. But it's really interesting to see the model they have adopted. >> The wildcard in all this, My last word on this is that, if there's a developer shift in how developers and data can come together again, we have conferences around the future of data, Supercloud and meshs versus, you know, how the data world, coding with data, how that evolves will also dictate, 'cause a wild card could be a shift in the landscape around how developers are using either machine learning or AI like techniques to code into their apps, so. >> That's fantastic insight. I can't thank you enough for your time, on the heels of Supercloud 2, really appreciate it. All right, thanks to John and Sarbjeet for the outstanding conversation today. Special thanks to the Palo Alto studio team. My goodness, Anderson, this great backdrop. You guys got it all out here, I'm jealous. And Noah, really appreciate it, Chuck, Andrew Frick and Cameron, Andrew Frick switching, Cameron on the video lake, great job. And Alex Myerson, he's on production, manages the podcast for us, Ken Schiffman as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and our newsletters. Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at SiliconANGLE, does some great editing, thanks to all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast, wherever you listen. Publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Want to get in touch, email me directly, david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me at dvellante, or comment on our LinkedIn post. And by all means, check out etr.ai. They got really great survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, We'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (electronic music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Recent conversations with IT decision makers show a stark contrast between exiting 2023 versus the mindset when we were leaving 2022. CIOs are generally funding new initiatives by pushing off or cutting lower priority items, while security efforts are still being funded. Those that enable business initiatives that generate revenue or taking priority over cleaning up legacy technical debt. The bottom line is, for the moment, at least, the mindset is not cut everything, rather, it's put a pause on cleaning up legacy hairballs and fund monetization. Hello, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we tap recent discussions from two primary sources, year-end ETR roundtables with IT decision makers, and CUBE conversations with data, cloud, and IT architecture practitioners. The sources of data for this breaking analysis come from the following areas. Eric Bradley's recent ETR year end panel featured a financial services DevOps and SRE manager, a CSO in a large hospitality firm, a director of IT for a big tech company, the head of IT infrastructure for a financial firm, and a CTO for global travel enterprise, and for our upcoming Supercloud2 conference on January 17th, which you can register free by the way, at supercloud.world, we've had CUBE conversations with data and cloud practitioners, specifically, heads of data in retail and financial services, a cloud architect and a biotech firm, the director of cloud and data at a large media firm, and the director of engineering at a financial services company. Now we've curated commentary from these sources and now we share them with you today as anecdotal evidence supporting what we've been reporting on in the marketplace for these last couple of quarters. On this program, we've likened the economy to the slingshot effect when you're driving, when you're cruising along at full speed on the highway, and suddenly you see red brake lights up ahead, so, you tap your own brakes and then you speed up again, and traffic is moving along at full speed, so, you think nothing of it, and then, all of a sudden, the same thing happens. You slow down to a crawl and you start wondering, "What the heck is happening?" And you become a lot more cautious about the rate of acceleration when you start moving again. Well, that's the trend in IT spend right now. Back in June, we reported that despite the macro headwinds, CIOs were still expecting 6% to 7% spending growth for 2022. Now that was down from 8%, which we reported at the beginning of 2022. That was before Ukraine, and Fed tightening, but given those two factors, you know that that seemed pretty robust, but throughout the fall, we began reporting consistently declining expectations where CIOs are now saying Q4 will come in at around 3% growth relative to last year, and they're expecting, or should we say hoping that it pops back up in 2023 to 4% to 5%. The recent ETR panelists, when they heard this, are saying based on their businesses and discussions with their peers, they could see low single digit growth for 2023, so, 1%, 2%, 3%, so, this sort of slingshotting, or sometimes we call it a seesaw economy, has caught everyone off guard. Amazon is a good example of this, and there are others, but Amazon entered the pandemic with around 800,000 employees. It doubled that workforce during the pandemic. Now, right before Thanksgiving in 2022, Amazon announced that it was laying off 10,000 employees, and, Jassy, the CEO of Amazon, just last week announced that number is now going to grow to 18,000. Now look, this is a rounding error at Amazon from a headcount standpoint and their headcount remains far above 2019 levels. Its stock price, however, does not and it's back down to 2019 levels. The point is that visibility is very poor right now and it's reflected in that uncertainty. We've seen a lot of layoffs, obviously, the stock market's choppy, et cetera. Now importantly, not everything is on hold, and this downturn is different from previous tech pullbacks in that the speed at which new initiatives can be rolled out is much greater thanks to the cloud, and if you can show a fast return, you're going to get funding. Organizations are pausing on the cleanup of technical debt, unless it's driving fast business value. They're holding off on modernization projects. Those business enablement initiatives are still getting funded. CIOs are finding the money by consolidating redundant vendors, and they're stealing from other pockets of budget, so, it's not surprising that cybersecurity remains the number one technology priority in 2023. We've been reporting that for quite some time now. It's specifically cloud, cloud native security container and API security. That's where all the action is, because there's still holes to plug from that forced march to digital that occurred during COVID. Cloud migration, kind of showing here on number two on this chart, still a high priority, while optimizing cloud spend is definitely a strategy that organizations are taking to cut costs. It's behind consolidating redundant vendors by a long shot. There's very little evidence that cloud repatriation, i.e., moving workloads back on prem is a major cost cutting trend. The data just doesn't show it. What is a trend is getting more real time with analytics, so, companies can do faster and more accurate customer targeting, and they're really prioritizing that, obviously, in this down economy. Real time, we sometimes lose it, what's real time? Real time, we sometimes define as before you lose the customer. Now in the hiring front, customers tell us they're still having a hard time finding qualified site reliability engineers, SREs, Kubernetes expertise, and deep analytics pros. These job markets remain very tight. Let's stay with security for just a moment. We said many times that, prior to COVID, zero trust was this undefined buzzword, and the joke, of course, is, if you ask three people, "What is zero trust?" You're going to get three different answers, but the truth is that virtually every security company that was resisting taking a position on zero trust in an attempt to avoid... They didn't want to get caught up in the buzzword vortex, but they're now really being forced to go there by CISOs, so, there are some good quotes here on cyber that we want to share that came out of the recent conversations that we cited up front. The first one, "Zero trust is the highest ROI, because it enables business transformation." In other words, if I can have good security, I can move fast, it's not a blocker anymore. Second quote here, "ZTA," zero trust architecture, "Is more than securing the perimeter. It encompasses strong authentication and multiple identity layers. It requires taking a software approach to security instead of a hardware focus." The next one, "I'd love to have a security data lake that I could apply to asset management, vulnerability management, incident management, incident response, and all aspects for my security team. I see huge promise in that space," and the last one, I see NLP, natural language processing, as the foundation for email security, so, instead of searching for IP addresses, you can now read emails at light speed and identify phishing threats, so, look at, this is a small snapshot of the mindset around security, but I'll add, when you talk to the likes of CrowdStrike, and Zscaler, and Okta, and Palo Alto Networks, and many other security firms, they're listening to these narratives around zero trust. I'm confident they're working hard on skating to this puck, if you will. A good example is this idea of a security data lake and using analytics to improve security. We're hearing a lot about that. We're hearing architectures, there's acquisitions in that regard, and so, that's becoming real, and there are many other examples, because data is at the heart of digital business. This is the next area that we want to talk about. It's obvious that data, as a topic, gets a lot of mind share amongst practitioners, but getting data right is still really hard. It's a challenge for most organizations to get ROI and expected return out of data. Most companies still put data at the periphery of their businesses. It's not at the core. Data lives within silos or different business units, different clouds, it's on-prem, and increasingly it's at the edge, and it seems like the problem is getting worse before it gets better, so, here are some instructive comments from our recent conversations. The first one, "We're publishing events onto Kafka, having those events be processed by Dataproc." Dataproc is a Google managed service to run Hadoop, and Spark, and Flank, and Presto, and a bunch of other open source tools. We're putting them into the appropriate storage models within Google, and then normalize the data into BigQuery, and only then can you take advantage of tools like ThoughtSpot, so, here's a company like ThoughtSpot, and they're all about simplifying data, democratizing data, but to get there, you have to go through some pretty complex processes, so, this is a good example. All right, another comment. "In order to use Google's AI tools, we have to put the data into BigQuery. They haven't integrated in the way AWS and Snowflake have with SageMaker. Moving the data is too expensive, time consuming, and risky," so, I'll just say this, sharing data is a killer super cloud use case, and firms like Snowflake are on top of it, but it's still not pretty across clouds, and Google's posture seems to be, "We're going to let our database product competitiveness drive the strategy first, and the ecosystem is going to take a backseat." Now, in a way, I get it, owning the database is critical, and Google doesn't want to capitulate on that front. Look, BigQuery is really good and competitive, but you can't help but roll your eyes when a CEO stands up, and look, I'm not calling out Thomas Kurian, every CEO does this, and talks about how important their customers are, and they'll do whatever is right by the customer, so, look, I'm telling you, I'm rolling my eyes on that. Now let me also comment, AWS has figured this out. They're killing it in database. If you take Redshift for example, it's still growing, as is Aurora, really fast growing services and other data stores, but AWS realizes it can make more money in the long-term partnering with the Snowflakes and Databricks of the world, and other ecosystem vendors versus sub optimizing their relationships with partners and customers in order to sell more of their own homegrown tools. I get it. It's hard not to feature your own product. IBM chose OS/2 over Windows, and tried for years to popularize it. It failed. Lotus, go back way back to Lotus 1, 2, and 3, they refused to run on Windows when it first came out. They were running on DEC VAX. Many of you young people in the United States have never even heard of DEC VAX. IBM wanted to run every everything only in its cloud, the same with Oracle, originally. VMware, as you might recall, tried to build its own cloud, but, eventually, when the market speaks and reveals what seems to be obvious to analysts, years before, the vendors come around, they face reality, and they stop wasting money, fighting a losing battle. "The trend is your friend," as the saying goes. All right, last pull quote on data, "The hardest part is transformations, moving traditional Informatica, Teradata, or Oracle infrastructure to something more modern and real time, and that's why people still run apps in COBOL. In IT, we rarely get rid of stuff, rather we add on another coat of paint until the wood rots out or the roof is going to cave in. All right, the last key finding we want to highlight is going to bring us back to the cloud repatriation myth. Followers of this program know it's a real sore spot with us. We've heard the stories about repatriation, we've read the thoughtful articles from VCs on the subject, we've been whispered to by vendors that you should investigate this trend. It's really happening, but the data simply doesn't support it. Here's the question that was posed to these practitioners. If you had unlimited budget and the economy miraculously flipped, what initiatives would you tackle first? Where would you really lean into? The first answer, "I'd rip out legacy on-prem infrastructure and move to the cloud even faster," so, the thing here is, look, maybe renting infrastructure is more expensive than owning, maybe, but if I can optimize my rental with better utilization, turn off compute, use things like serverless, get on a steeper and higher performance over time, and lower cost Silicon curve with things like Graviton, tap best of breed tools in AI, and other areas that make my business more competitive. Move faster, fail faster, experiment more quickly, and cheaply, what's that worth? Even the most hard-o CFOs understand the business benefits far outweigh the possible added cost per gigabyte, and, again, I stress "possible." Okay, other interesting comments from practitioners. "I'd hire 50 more data engineers and accelerate our real-time data capabilities to better target customers." Real-time is becoming a thing. AI is being injected into data and apps to make faster decisions, perhaps, with less or even no human involvement. That's on the rise. Next quote, "I'd like to focus on resolving the concerns around cloud data compliance," so, again, despite the risks of data being spread out in different clouds, organizations realize cloud is a given, and they want to find ways to make it work better, not move away from it. The same thing in the next one, "I would automate the data analytics pipeline and focus on a safer way to share data across the states without moving it," and, finally, "The way I'm addressing complexity is to standardize on a single cloud." MonoCloud is actually a thing. We're hearing this more and more. Yes, my company has multiple clouds, but in my group, we've standardized on a single cloud to simplify things, and this is a somewhat dangerous trend, because it's creating even more silos and it's an opportunity that needs to be addressed, and that's why we've been talking so much about supercloud is a cross-cloud, unifying, architectural framework, or, perhaps, it's a platform. In fact, that's a question that we will be exploring later this month at Supercloud2 live from our Palo Alto Studios. Is supercloud an architecture or is it a platform? And in this program, we're featuring technologists, analysts, practitioners to explore the intersection between data and cloud and the future of cloud computing, so, you don't want to miss this opportunity. Go to supercloud.world. You can register for free and participate in the event directly. All right, thanks for listening. That's a wrap. I'd like to thank Alex Myerson, who's on production and manages our podcast, Ken Schiffman as well, Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out on social media, and in our newsletters, and Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at siliconangle.com. He does some great editing. Thank you, all. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you've got to do is search "breaking analysis podcasts." I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com where you can email me directly at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me, @Dante, or comment on our LinkedIn posts. By all means, check out etr.ai. They get the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. We'll be doing our annual predictions post in a few weeks, once the data comes out from the January survey. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, everybody, and we'll see you next time on "Breaking Analysis." (upbeat music)

>>Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the cubes day two coverage of VMware Explorer, 2022 live from San Francisco. Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We're excited to kick off day two of great conversations with VMware partners, customers it's ecosystem. We've got a V an alumni back with us Kumer on Siva corporate VP of business development from AMD joins us. Great to have you on the program in person. Great >>To be here. Yes. In person. Indeed. Welcome. >>So the great thing yesterday, a lot of announcements and B had an announcement with VMware, which we will unpack that, but there's about 7,000 to 10,000 people here. People are excited, ready to be back, ready to be hearing from this community, which is so nice. Yesterday am B announced. It is optimizing AMD PON distributed services card to run on VMware. Bsphere eight B for eight was announced yesterday. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, >>No, absolutely. The Ben Sando smart neck DPU. What it allows you to do is it, it provides a whole bunch of capabilities, including offloads, including encryption DEC description. We can even do functions like compression, but with, with the combination of VMware project Monterey and, and Ben Sando, we we're able to do is even do some of the vSphere, actual offloads integration of the hypervisor into the DPU card. It's, it's pretty interesting and pretty powerful technology. We're we're pretty excited about it. I think this, this, this could, you know, potentially, you know, bring some of the cloud value into, in terms of manageability, in terms of being able to take care of bare metal servers and also, you know, better secure infrastructure, you know, cloudlike techniques into the, into the mainstream on-premises enterprise. >>Okay. Talk a little bit about the DPU data processing unit. They talked about it on stage yesterday, but help me understand that versus the CPU GPU. >>Yeah. So it's, it's, it's a different, it's a different point, right? So normally you'd, you'd have the CPU you'd have we call it dumb networking card. Right. And I say dumb, but it's, it's, you know, it's just designed to go process packets, you know, put and put them onto PCI and have the, the CPU do all of the, kind of the, the packet processing, the, the virtual switching, all of those functions inside the CPU. What the DPU allows you to do is, is actually offload a bunch of those functions directly onto the, onto the deep view card. So it has a combination of these special purpose processors that are programmable with the language called P four, which is one, one of the key things that pan Sando brings. Here's a, it's a, it's a real easy to program, easy to use, you know, kind of set so that not some of, some of our larger enterprise customers can actually go in and, you know, do some custom coding depending on what their network infrastructure looks like. But you can do things like the V switch in, in the, in the DPU, not having to all have that done on the CPU. So you freeze up some of the CPU course, make sure, make sure infrastructure run more efficiently, but probably even more importantly, it provides you with more, with greater security, greater separation between the, between the networking side and the, the CPU side. >>So, so that's, that's a key point because a lot of us remember the era of the tonic TCP, I P offload engine, Nick, this isn't simply offloading CPU cycles. This is actually providing a sort of isolation. So that the network that's right, is the network has intelligence that is separate from the server. Is that, is that absolutely key? Is that absolutely >>Key? Yeah. That's, that's a good way of looking at it. Yeah. And that's, that's, I mean, if you look at some of the, the, the techniques used in the cloud, the, you know, this, this, this in fact brings some of those technologies into, into the enterprise, right. So where you are wanting to have that level of separation and management, you're able to now utilize the DPU card. So that's, that's a really big, big, big part of the value proposition, the manageability manageability, not just offload, but you know, kind of a better network for enterprise. Right. >>Right. >>Can you expand on that value proposition? If I'm a customer what's in this for me, how does this help power my multi-cloud organization? >>Yeah. >>So I think we have some, we actually have a number of these in real customer use cases today. And so, you know, folks will use, for example, the compression and the, sorry, the compression and decompression, that's, that's definitely an application in the storage side, but also on the, just on the, just, just as a, as a DPU card in the mainstream general purpose, general purpose server server infrastructure fleet, they're able to use the encryption and decryption to make sure that their, their, their infrastructure is, is kind of safe, you know, from point to point within the network. So every, every connected, every connection there is actually encrypted and that, that, you know, managing those policies and orchestrating all of that, that's done to the DPU card. >>So, so what you're saying is if you have DPU involved, then the server itself and the CPUs become completely irrelevant. And basically it's just a box of sheet metal at that point. That's, that's a good way of looking at that. That's my segue talking about the value proposition of the actual AMD. >>No, absolutely. No, no. I think, I think, I think the, the, the CPUs are always going to be central in this and look. And so, so I think, I think having, having the, the DPU is extremely powerful and, and it does allow you to have better infrastructure, but the key to having better infrastructure is to have the best CPU. Well, tell >>Us, tell >>Us that's what, tell us us about that. So, so I, you know, this is, this is where a lot of the, the great value proposition between VMware and AMD come together. So VMware really allows enterprises to take advantage of these high core count, really modern, you know, CPU, our, our, our, our epic, especially our Milan, our 7,003 product line. So to be able to take advantage of 64 course, you know, VMware is critical for that. And, and so what they, what they've been able to do is, you know, know, for example, if you have workloads running on legacy, you know, like five year old servers, you're able to take a whole bunch of those servers and consolidate down, down into a single node, right. And the power that VMware gives you is the manageability, the reliability brings all of that factors and allows you to take advantage of, of the, the, the latest, latest generation CPUs. >>You know, we've actually done some TCO modeling where we can show, even if you have fully depreciated hardware, like, so it's like five years old plus, right. And so, you know, the actual cost, you know, it's already been written off, but the cost just the cost of running it in terms of the power and the administration, you know, the OPEX costs that, that are associated with it are greater than the cost of acquiring a new set of, you know, a smaller set of AMD servers. Yeah. And, and being able to consolidate those workloads, run VMware, to provide you with that great, great user experience, especially with vSphere 8.0 and the, and the hooks that VMware have built in for AMD AMD processors, you actually see really, really good. It's just a great user experience. It's also a more efficient, you know, it's just better for the planet. And it's also better on the pocketbook, which is, which is, which is a really cool thing these days, cuz our value in TCO translates directly into a value in terms of sustainability. Right. And so, you know, from, from energy consumption, from, you know, just, just the cost of having that there, it's just a whole lot better >>Talk about on the sustainability front, how AMD is helping its customers achieve their sustainability goals. And are you seeing more and more customers coming to you saying, we wanna understand what AMD is doing for sustainability because it's important for us to work with vendors who have a core focus on it. >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think, look, I'll be perfectly honest when we first designed our CPU, we're just trying to build the biggest baddest thing that, you know, that, that comes out in terms of having the, the, the best, the, the number, the, the largest number of cores and the best TCO for our customers, but what it's actually turned out that TCO involves energy consumption. Right. And, and it involves, you know, the whole process of bringing down a whole bunch of nodes, whole bunch of servers. For example, we have one calculation where we showed 27, you know, like I think like five year old servers can be consolidated down into five AMD servers that, that ratio you can see already, you know, huge gains in terms of sustainability. Now you asked about the sustainability conversation. This I'd say not a week goes by where I'm not having a conversation with, with a, a, a CTO or CIO who is, you know, who's got that as part of their corporate, you know, is part of their corporate brand. And they want to find out how to make their, their infrastructure, their data center, more green. Right. And so that's, that's where we come in. Yeah. And it's interesting because at least in the us money is also green. So when you talk about the cost of power, especially in places like California, that's right. There's, there's a, there's a natural incentive to >>Drive in that direction. >>Let's talk about security. You know, the, the, the threat landscape has changed so dramatically in the last couple of years, ransomware is a household word. Yes. Ransomware attacks happened like one every 11 seconds, older technology, a little bit more vulnerable to internal threats, external threats. How is AMD helping customers address the security fund, which is the board level conversation >>That that's, that's, that's a, that's a great, great question. Look, I look at security as being, you know, it's a layered thing, right? I mean, if you talk to any security experts, security, doesn't, you know, there's not one component and we are an ingredient within the, the greater, you know, the greater scheme of things. A few things. One is we have partnered very closely with the VMware. They have enabled our SUV technology, secure encrypted virtualization technology into, into the vSphere. So such that all of the memory transactions. So you have, you have security, you know, at, you know, security, when you store store on disks, you have security over the network and you also have security in the compute. And when you go out to memory, that's what this SUV technology gives you. It gives you that, that security going, going in your, in your actual virtual machine as it's running. And so the, the, we take security extremely seriously. I mean, one of the things, every generation that you see from, from AMD and, and, you know, you have seen us hit our cadence. We do upgrade all of the security features and we address all of the sort of known threats that are out there. And obviously this threats, you know, kind of coming at us all the time, but our CPUs just get better and better from, from a, a security stance. >>So shifting gears for a minute, obviously we know the pending impossible acquisition, the announced acquisition of VMware by Broadcom, AMD's got a relationship with Broadcom independently, right? No, of course. What is, how's that relationship? >>Oh, it's a great relationship. I mean, we, we, you know, they, they have certified their, their, their niche products, their HPA products, which are utilized in, you know, for, for storage systems, sand systems, those, those type of architectures, the hardcore storage architectures. We, we work with them very closely. So they, they, they've been a great partner with us for years. >>And you've got, I know, you know, we are, we're talking about current generation available on the shelf, Milan based architecture, is that right? That's right. Yeah. But if I understand correctly, maybe sometime this year, you're, you're gonna be that's right. Rolling out the, rolling out the new stuff. >>Yeah, absolutely. So later this year, we've already, you know, we already talked about this publicly. We have a 96 core gen platform up to 96 cores gen platform. So we're just, we're just taking that TCO value just to the next level, increasing performance DDR, five CXL with, with memory expansion capability. Very, very neat leading edge technology. So that that's gonna be available. >>Is that NextGen P C I E, or has that shift already been made? It's >>Been it's NextGen. P C I E P C E gen five. Okay. So we'll have, we'll have that capability. That'll be, that'll be out by the end of this year. >>Okay. So those components you talk about. Yeah. You know, you talk about the, the Broadcom VMware universe, those components that are going into those new slots are also factors in performance and >>Yeah, absolutely. You need the balance, right? You, you need to have networking storage and the CPU. We're very cognizant of how to make sure that these cores are fed appropriately. Okay. Cuz if you've just put out a lot of cores, you don't have enough memory, you don't have enough iOS. That's, that's the key to, to, to, you know, our approach to, to enabling performance in the enterprise, make sure that the systems are balanced. So you get the experience that you've had with, let's say your, you know, your 12 core, your 16 core, you can have that same experience in the 96 core in a node or 96 core socket. So maybe a 192 cores total, right? So you can have that same experience in, in a tune node in a much denser, you know, package server today or, or using Melan technology, you know, 128 cores, super, super good performance. You know, its super good experience it's, it's designed to scale. Right. And especially with VMware as, as our infrastructure, it works >>Great. I'm gonna, Lisa, Lisa's got a question to ask. I know, but bear with me one bear >>With me. Yes, sir. >>We've actually initiated coverage of this question of, you know, just hardware matter right anymore. Does it matter anymore? Yeah. So I put to you the question, do you think hardware still matters? >>Oh, I think, I think it's gonna matter even more and more going forward. I mean just, but it's all cloud who cares just in this conversation today. Right? >>Who cares? It's all cloud. Yeah. >>So, so, so definitely their workloads moving to the cloud and we love our cloud partners don't get me wrong. Right. But there are, you know, just, I've had so many conversations at this show this week about customers who cannot move to the cloud because of regulatory reasons. Yeah. You know, the other thing that you don't realize too, that's new to me is that people have depreciated their data centers. So the cost for them to just go put in new AMD servers is actually very low compared to the cost of having to go buy, buy public cloud service. They still want to go buy public cloud services and that, by the way, we have great, great, great AMD instances on, on AWS, on Google, on Azure, Oracle, like all of our major, all of the major cloud providers, support AMD and have, have great, you know, TCO instances that they've, they've put out there with good performance. Yeah. >>What >>Are some of the key use cases that customers are coming to AMD for? And, and what have you seen change in the last couple of years with respect to every customer needing to become a data company needing to really be data driven? >>No, that's, that's also great question. So, you know, I used to get this question a lot. >>She only asks great questions. Yeah. Yeah. I go down and like all around in the weeds and get excited about the bits and the bites she asks. >>But no, I think, look, I think the, you know, a few years ago and I, I think I, I used to get this question all the time. What workloads run best on AMD? My answer today is unequivocally all the workloads. Okay. Cuz we have processors that run, you know, run at the highest performance per thread per per core that you can get. And then we have processors that have the highest throughput and, and sometimes they're one in the same, right. And Ilan 64 configured the right way using using VMware vSphere, you can actually get extremely good per core performance and extremely good throughput performance. It works well across, just as you said, like a database to data management, all of those kinds of capabilities, DevOps, you know, E R P like there's just been a whole slew slew of applications use cases. We have design wins in, in major customers, in every single industry in every, and these, these are big, you know, the big guys, right? >>And they're, they're, they're using AMD they're successfully moving over their workloads without, without issue. For the most part. In some cases, customers tell us they just, they just move the workload on, turn it on. It runs great. Right. And, and they're, they're fully happy with it. You know, there are other cases where, where we've actually gotten involved and we figured out, you know, there's this configuration of that configuration, but it's typically not a, not a huge lift to move to AMD. And that's that I think is a, is a key, it's a key point. And we're working together with almost all of the major ISV partners. Right. And so just to make sure that, that, that they have run tested certified, I think we have over 250 world record benchmarks, you know, running in all sorts of, you know, like Oracle database, SAP business suite, all of those, those types of applications run, run extremely well on AMD. >>Is there a particular customer story that you think really articulates the value of running on AMD in terms of enabling bus, big business outcome, safer a financial services organization or healthcare organization? Yeah. >>I mean we, yeah, there's certainly been, I mean, across the board. So in, in healthcare we've seen customers actually do the, the server consolidation very effectively and then, you know, take advantage of the, the lower cost of operation because in some cases they're, they're trying to run servers on each floor of a hospital. For example, we've had use cases where customers have been able to do that because of the density that we provide and to be able to, to actually, you know, take, take their compute more even to the edge than, than actually have it in the, in those use cases in, in a centralized matter. The another, another interesting case FSI in financial services, we have customers that use us for general purpose. It, we have customers that use this for kind of the, the high performance we call it grid computing. So, you know, you have guys that, you know, do all this trading during the day, they collect tons and tons of data, and then they use our computers to, or our CPUs to just crunch to that data overnight. >>And it's just like this big, super computer that just crunches it's, it's pretty incredible. They're the, the, the density of the CPUs, the value that we bring really shines, but in, in their general purpose fleet as well. Right? So they're able to use VMware, a lot of VMware customers in that space. We love our, we love our VMware customers and they're able to, to, to utilize this, they use use us with HCI. So hyperconverge infrastructure with V VSAN and that's that that's, that's worked works extremely well. And, and, and our, our enterprise customers are extremely happy with that. >>Talk about, as we wrap things up here, what's next for AMD, especially AMD with VMwares VMware undergoes its potential change. >>Yeah. So there there's a lot that we have going on. I mean, I gotta say VMware is one of the, let's say premier companies in terms of, you know, being innovative and being, being able to drive new, new, interesting pieces of technology and, and they're very experimentive right. So they, we have, we have a ton of things going with them, but certainly, you know, driving pin Sando is, is very, it is very, very important to us. Yeah. I think that the whole, we're just in the, the cusp, I believe of, you know, server consolidation becoming a big thing for us. So driving that together with VMware and, you know, into some of these enterprises where we can show, you know, save the earth while we, you know, in terms of reducing power, reducing and, and saving money in terms of TCO, but also being able to enable new capabilities. >>You know, the other part of it too, is this new infrastructure enables new workloads. So things like machine learning, you know, more data analytics, more sophisticated processing, you know, that, that is all enabled by this new infrastructure. So we, we were excited. We think that we're on the precipice of, you know, going a lot of industries moving forward to, to having, you know, the next level of it. It's no longer about just payroll or, or, or enterprise business management. It's about, you know, how do you make your, you know, your, your knowledge workers more productive, right. And how do you give them more capabilities? And that, that is really, what's exciting for us. >>Awesome Cooper. And thank you so much for joining Dave and me on the program today, talking about what AMD, what you're doing to supercharge customers, your partnership with VMware and what is exciting. What's on the, the forefront, the frontier, we appreciate your time and your insights. >>Great. Thank you very much for having me. >>Thank you for our guest and Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 22 from San Francisco, but don't go anywhere, Dave and I will be right back with our next guest.

(bright music) >> Welcome back to AWS re:Invent. You're watching theCUBE. And we're here with Steve Mullaney, who is the president and CEO of Aviatrix. Steve, I got to tell ya, great to see you man. >> We started the whole pandemic, last show we did was with you guys. >> Steve: Don't say we started, we didn't start it. (steve chuckles) >> Right, we kicked it off (all cross talking) >> It's going to be great. >> Our virtual coverage, that hybrid coverage that we did, how ironic? >> Steve: Yeah, was as the world was shutting down. >> So, great to see you face to face. >> Steve: Great to see you too. >> Wow, so you're two years in? >> Steve: Two and a half years yeah. >> Started, the company was standing start $2 billion valuation, raised a bunch of dough. >> Steve: Yeah. >> That's good, you got to feel good about that. >> We were 38 people, two and a half years ago, we're now 400. We had a couple million in ARR, we're now going to be over a 100 million next year, next calendar year, so significant growth. We just raised $200 million, three months ago at a $2 billion valuation. Now have 550 customers, 54 of them are fortune 500, when I started two and a half years ago, we didn't have any fortune 500s, we had probably about a 100 customers. So, massive growth, big growth (indistinct). >> Awesome, I got to ask you, I love to ask CEO's, entrepreneurs, how did you know when to scale? >> You just know it, when you see it. (indistinct) Yeah, there's no formula, you just know it and what you look for is that point where you say, okay, we've now proven the model and until you do that you minimize things and we actually just went through this. We had 12 sales teams, four months ago, we now have 50. 50, five zero and it's that step function as a company, you don't want to linearly grow 'cause you want to hold until you say, it's happening. And then once you say it's happening, okay, the dogs are eating the dog food, this is good then you flip the other way, and then you say, let's grow as fast as we possibly can and that's kind of the mode we're in right now. >> Okay, You've... >> You just know it when you see it. >> Other piece of that is how fast do you scale? And now you're sort of doing that step function as your going. >> Steve: We are going as fast as we possibly can. >> Wow, that's awesome, congratulations and I know you've got to long way to go. So okay, let's talk about the big trends that you're seeing that Aviatrix has taken advantage of, maybe explain a little bit about what you guys do. >> Yeah. So we are, what I like to call Multi- Cloud Native Networking and Network Security. So, if you think of... >> David: What is multicloud native? You got to explain that. >> I got to to explain that. Here's what's happened, it's happening and what I mean by it's happening is, enterprises at two and a half years ago, this is why I joined Aviatrix, all decided for the first time, we mean it now, we are going into Cloud 'cause before that they were just mouthing it. And they said, "We're going into the Cloud." And oh by the way, I knew two and a half years ago of course it was going to be multicloud, 'cause enterprises run workloads where they run best. That's what they do, it's sometimes it's AWS, sometimes it's ads or sometimes it's Google, it's of course going to be multicloud. And so from an enterprise perspective, they love the DevOps, they love the simplicity, the automation, the infrastructure is code, the Terraform, that Cloud operational model, because this is a business transformation, moving to Cloud is not a technology transformation it's the business. It's the CEO saying we are digitizing we have an existential threat to the survival of our company, I want to grow a market share, I want to be more competitive, we're doing this, stop laying across the tracks technology people, will run you over, we're doing this. And so when they do that as an enterprise, I'm BNY Mellon, I'm United Airlines, you name it, your favorite enterprise. I need the visibility and control from a networking and network security perspective like I used to have on-prem. Now I'm not going to do it in the horrible complex operational model the Cisco 1994 data center, do not bring that crap into my wonderful Cloud, so that ain't happening but, all I get from the Native constructs, I don't get enough of that visibility and control, it's a little bit of a black box, I don't get that. So where do I get the best of the Cloud from an operational model, but yet with the visibility and control that I need, that I used to have on-prem from networking network security, that's Aviatrix. And that's where people find us and so from a networking and network security, so that's why I call it multicloud Native because what we do is, create a layer basically an abstraction layer above all the different Clouds, we create one architecture for networking and network security with advanced services not basic services that run on AWS, Azure, Google, Oracle, Ali Cloud, Top Secret Clouds, GovClouds, you name it. And now the customer has one architecture, which is what enterprises want, I want one network, I want one network security architecture, not AWS Native, Azure Native, Google Native. >> David: Right. >> We leverage those native constructs, abstract it, and then provide a single common architecture with demand services, irrespective of what Cloud you're on. >> Dave, I've been saying this for a couple of years now, that Cloud Native... >> Does that make sense Dave? >> Absolutely. >> That abstraction layer, right? And I said, "The guys who do this, who figure this out are going to make a lot of dough." >> Yeah. >> Snowflakes obviously doing it. >> Yeah. >> You guys are doing it, it's the future. >> Yeah. >> And it's really an obvious construct when you look back at the world of call it Legacy IT for a moment... >> Steve: Yeah. >> Because did we have different networks to hookup different things in a data center? >> No, one network. >> One network of course. I don't care if the physical stack comes from Dell, HP or IBM. >> Steve: That's right, I want an attraction layer above that, yeah. >> Exactly. >> So the other thing that happens is, everybody and you'll understand this from being at Oracle, everybody wants to forget about the network. Network security, it's down in the bowels, it's like plumbing, electricity, it's just, it has to be there but people want to forget about it and so you see Datadog, you see Snowflake, you see HashiCorp going IPO in early December. Guess what? That next layer underneath that, I call it the horsemen of the multicloud infrastructure is networking and network security, that's going to be Aviatrix. >> Well, you guys make some announcements recently in that space, every company is a security company but you're really deep into it. >> Well, that's the interesting thing about it. So I said multicloud Native Networking and Network Security, it's integrated, so guess where network security is going to be done in the Cloud? In the network. >> David: Network. >> Yeah in the network. >> What a strange concept but guess what on-prem it's not, you deflect traffic to this thing called a firewall. Well, why was that? I was at Synoptics, I was at Cisco 'cause we didn't care about network security, so that's why firewall companies existed. >> Dave: Right. >> It should be integrated into the infrastructure. So now in the Cloud, your security posture is way worse than it was on-prem. You're connected to the internet by default so guess what? You want your network to do network security, so we announced two things in security; one, we're now a security competency partner for AWS, they do not give that out lightly. We were networks competency four years ago, we're now network security competency. One of the few that are both, they don't do that, that took us nine months of working with them to get there. And they only do that for the people that really are delivering value. And then what we just announced what we call, 'ThreatIQ with ThreatGuard.' So again, built into the network because we are the network, we understand the traffic, we're the control plane and the data plane, we see all traffic. We integrate into the network, we subscribe to threat databases, public databases, where we see what are the malicious IPS. If we have any traffic anywhere in your overall, and this is multicloud, not just AWS, every single Cloud, if we see that malicious traffic going some into IP guess what? It's probably BIT Mining, Bitcoin, crypto mining, it's probably some sort of data ex filtration. It could be some tour thing that you're connected to, whatever it is, you should not have traffic going. And so we do two things we alert and we show you where that all is and then with ThreatGuard, we actually will do a firewall rule right at that gateway, at that point that it's going out and immediately gone. >> You'll take the action. >> We'll take the action. >> Okay. >> And so every single customer, Dave and David, that we've shown this new capability to, it lights up like a Christmas tree. >> Yeah al bet. Okay, but now you've made some controversial statements... >> Steve: Which time? >> Okay, so you said Cisco, I think VMware... >> Dave: He's writing them down. >> I know but I can back it up. >> I think you said the risk, Cisco, VMware and Arista, they're not even in the Cloud conversation now. Arista, Jayshree Ullal is a business hero of mine, so I don't want to... >> Steve: Yeah, mine too. >> I don't want to interrogate her, she's awesome. >> Steve: Yeah. >> But what do you mean by that? Because can't Cisco come at this from their networking perspective and security and bring that in? What do you mean by they're not in the Cloud conversation? >> They're not in the conversation. >> David: Okay, defend that. >> And the reason is they were about four years ago. So when you're four years ago, you're moving into the Cloud, what's the first thing you do? I'm going to grab my CSR and I'm going to try to jam it in the Cloud. Guess what? The CSR doesn't even know it's in the Cloud, it's looking for ports, right? And so what happens is the operational model is horrendous, so all the Cloud people, it just is like oil and water, so they go, oh, that was horrendous. So no one's doing that, so what happens in the Cloud is they realize the number one thing is the Cloud operational model. I need that simplicity, I have to be a single Terraform provider, infrastructure is code. Where do I put my box with my wires? That's what the on-prem hardware people think. >> David: The selling ports your saying? >> The selling boxes. >> David: Yeah. >> And so they'll say, "Oh, we got us software version of it, it runs as a VM, it has no idea it's in the Cloud." It is not Cloud Native, I call that Cloud naive, they don't understand so then the model doesn't work. And so then they say, "Okay, I'm not going to do that." Then the only other thing they can do, is they look at the Cloud providers themselves and they say, "All right, I'm going to use Native constructs, what do you got?" And what happens basically is the Cloud providers say, "Well, we do everything and anything you'll ever need and networking and network security." And the customers, "Oh my God, it's fantastic." Then they try to use it and what they realize is you get very basic level services, and you get no visibility and control because they're a black box, you don't get to go in. How about troubleshooting, Packet Captures, simple things? How about security controls, performance traffic engineering, performance controls, visibility nothing, right? And so then they go, "Oh shit, I'm an enterprise, I'm not just some DevOps Danny three years ago, who was just spinning up workloads and didn't care about security." No, that was the Cloud three years ago. This is now United, BNY, Nike. This is like elite of elite. So when my VC was here, he said, "It's happening." That's what he meant, it's happening. Meaning enterprises, the dogs are eating the dog food and they need visibility and control, they cannot get it from the Cloud providers. >> It's happening in early days Dave. >> So Steve, we're going to stipulate that you can't jam this stuff into Cloud, but those dinosaurs are real and they're there. Explain how you... >> Steve: Well you called them dinosaurs not me but they're roaming the earth and they're going to run out of food pretty soon. (all laughing) The comet hit the earth. >> Hey, they're going to go down fighting. (all laughing) >> But the dinosaurs didn't all die the day after the comet hit the earth... >> Steve: That's right. >> They took awhile. >> Steve: They took a while. >> So, how are you going to saddle them up? That's the question because you're... >> Steve: It's over there walking dead, I don't need to do anything. >> Is it the captain Kirk to con, let them die. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Because you're in the Cloud, you're multicloud... >> Steve: Yeah. >> That's great, but 80% of my IT still on-prem and I still have Cisco switches. Isn't that just not your market or? >> When IBM and DEC did we have to do anything with IBM and DEC in the 90s, early 90s, when we created BC client server, IP architectures? No, they weren't in the conversation. >> David: Yeah. >> So, we dint compete with them, just like whatever they do on-prem, keep doing it, I wish you the best. >> But you need to integrate with them and play with them. >> Steve: No. >> Not at all? >> No, no we integrate, here is the thing that's going to happen, so to the on-prem people, it's all point of reference. They look at Cloud as off-prem, I'm going to take my operational model on-prem and I'm going to push it into the Cloud. And if I push it into multiple Clouds, they're going to call that multicloud, see we are multicloud. You're pushing your operational model into the Cloud. What's happening is Cloud has won, it won two and a half years ago with every enterprise. It's like a rock in the water. And what's going to happen is that operational model is moving out to the edge, it's moving to the branch, it's moving to the data center and it's moving into edge computing. That's what's happening... >> So outpost, so I put an outpost in my data center... >> Outpost looks like... >> Is that Aviatrix? >> Absolutely, we're going to get dragged with that... >> Dave: Okay, alright. >> Because we're the networking and network security provider, and as the company pushes out, that operational model is going to move out, not the existing on-prem OT, IT branch office then pushing in. And so, what's happening is you're coming at it from the wrong perspective. And this wave is just going to push over and so I'm just following behind this wave of AWS and Azure and Google. >> Here's the thing, you can do this and you don't have a bunch of legacy deductible debt... >> Steve: Yeah. >> So you can be Cloud Native, multicloud native, I think you called it? >> Steve: Yeah, yeah. >> I love it, you're building castles on the sand. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Jerry Chen's thing. >> Steve: Yeah. >> Now, the thing is, today's executives, they're not as naive as Ken Olsen, UNIX as, "Snake oil," who would need a PC, so they're not in denial. >> They're probably not in denial, yeah. >> Right, and so they have some resources, so the problem is they can't move as fast as you can. So, you're going to do really well. >> Steve: Yeah. >> I think they'll eventually get there Steve, but you're going to be, I don't know how many, four or five years ahead, that's a nice lead. >> That's a bet I'll take any day. >> David: Then what you don't think they'll ever get there? >> No, 10 years. (steve laughing) >> Okay, but they're not going out of business. >> No, I didn't say that. >> I know you didn't. >> What they're doing, I wish them all the best. >> Because a lot of their customers move... >> I don't compete with them. >> Yeah. We were out of time. >> Yeah. >> What did you mean by AWS is like Sandals? You mean like cool like Sandals? >> Steve: Oh, no, no, no. I don't want to... >> You mean like the vacation place? >> Have you ever been to Sandals? >> I never done it. What do you mean by that? >> There coming, there coming. Which version of sandals (indistinct)? (people cross talking) >> This is for an enterprise by the way, and look, Sandals is great for a lot of people but if you're a Cloud provider, you have to provide the common set of services for the masses because you need to make money. And oh, by the way, when you go to Sandals, go try it, like get a bottle of wine, they say, "We got red wine or white wine?" "Oh, great, what kind of red wine?" "No, red wine and it's in a box." And they hope that you won't know the difference. The problem is some people in enterprises want Four Seasons, so they want to be able to swipe the card and get a good bottle of wine. And so that's the thing with the Cloud, but the Cloud can't offer up a 200 bottle of wine to everybody. My mom loves box wine, so give her box wine. Where ISBs like us come in, is great but complimentary to the Cloud provider for that person who wants that nice bottle of wine because if AWS had to provide all this level of functionality for everybody, their instant sizes would be too big, >> Too much cost for that. (people cross talking) You're right on. And as long as you can innovate fast and stay ahead of that and keep adding value... >> Well, here's the thing, they're not going to do it for multicloud either though. >> David: I wouldn't trust them to do it with multicloud. >> No. >> David: I wouldn't. >> No enterprise would and I don't think they would ever do it anyway. >> That makes sense. Steve, we've got to go man. You're awesome, love to have you on theCUBE, come back anytime. >> Awesome, thank you. >> All right, keep it right there everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise tech coverage. (bright music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, this is Dave Vellante with theCUBE and welcome to this conversation. With me is Anil Singhal, who is the CEO of NETSCOUT. Anil, it's a pleasure to speak with you today. Thanks so much for coming on the program. >> Thank you. >> So I want to talk a little bit about NETSCOUT. We're kind of at theCUBE, we're sort of enamored by founder-led companies. I mean, you started NETSCOUT right around the same time that I entered the tech business, and you remember back then it was an industry dominated by IBM, monolithic systems were the norm, in the form of mainframes, you had mini computers, PCs, and things like PC local area networks, they were in their infancy. In fact, most of the PCs, as you remember, they didn't even have hard disks in them. So I want to start with, what was it that you saw 35 years ago that led you to start NETSCOUT and at the time, did you even imagine that you'd be creating a company with a billion dollars worth of revenue and a much larger market cap? >> Well, certainly I had not imagined where we'll be right now, and we didn't know that this'll be the outcome. I mean, we just happened to be at the right place at the right time, but we did have a vision. Some of you had the feeling, we are enamored by networking, and we thought that network will be the business. In fact, our business card in 91 said, "Network is the business." And so somehow we got that right, and we said, these things will be connected. And overall, we found then that the IP convergence first in the enterprise in 90s, and then internet, and carriers moving from analog to digital, (indistinct) talk about digital transformation in last few years, but this has been going on for the last 30 years. And as we add what we were doing, become relevant to more and more people over time. For example, now even power companies use our product. And we have IoT devices coming in. So basically what we do is we said we are going to provide visibility through looking at the traffic, through the lens and the vantage point of the network. A lot of people think we are just doing network monitoring or had been doing that. But actually we use the network as a vantage point, which other people are not doing, most of the people have accidental data from devices as the basis of visibility. And that turned out to be very successful, but at some point, different points in our life, we became responsible for the market, not just for NETSCOUT. And that changed the shape of the company, and what we did and how we drove the innovation. >> I want to get into some of that, but I'm still really enamored of and fascinated by the beginnings. I mean, I worked for a founder-led, a chairman, a guy named Pat McGovern who built a media empire. He had these 10 sort of core principles, he used to test us on 'em, we'd carry around little note cards, things that today still serve us. You know, stay close to the customer, you know, keep the corporate staff lean, promote from within, respect for individuals, things that are drilled into your head. I wonder, you know, what are the principles that, you know, sometimes they become dogma, but they're good dogma. I don't mean that as a pejorative. What are the things that you built your business on, the principles that you're sort of most proud of? >> Well, I think there is, so there are five, in fact, we call some of these tenets our five tenets. We call this high ambition leadership, which is more than just about making money. And just like the US is the leader of the free world, we have a responsibility beyond US. Same way, NETSCOUT has a responsibility beyond our own company and revenue and our stakeholders. So with that in mind, we have these five things, which I think I wouldn't have been able to articulate that 20 years ago, like this. But they were always there. So firstly, there's guardians of the connected world, which you see it on our website, guardians care about their asset, it's not just about money. We are going to solve problems in the connected world, which nobody else is able to solve, or have the passion or have the resources and willpower to do it. So that's the overall theme of the company. Guardians of the connected world, connected world is changing, new problems are coming. Our goal is there are pros and cons of every new thing. Our goal is to remove all the cons so you can enjoy the pros. So that's guardian of the connected world. Then our mission is accelerate digital transformation, meaning remove the roadblocks. People are looking at enablers, but there are barriers also. How do you remove the barriers for our customers, so they can improve the fruits of digital transformation? For example, going to the cloud allows you to outsource some of us, especially in these times of agility and dependency, you can cut your costs, but that comes with a price that you lose control. So our product brings the control back. So now you can enjoy the pros and the cons and I call it sometimes how do you change the wheels of your car while driving? If you change four wheels, then car is going to fall down, but how do you put one wheel in the cloud? Well, that's what our vision is. Visibility without borders. We'll give you the same information, which is the third part. That's why we have this tagline and therefore the company. And then we have the mission, accelerating digital transformation, but our vision is visibility without borders. When you run your application, no matter where you run, we'll give you the same piece of information. That allows the people to make this migration transparent from a monitoring and visibility point of view. And then the fourth area is about our technology. We call it smart data technology, and the whole world is talking about artificial intelligence, machine learning. But what are you going to learn, is your AI really authentic or is it truly artificial? And that comes from smart data. Data is the oil of the new industry. That's the oil, and people are not focusing on that. They're saying, "I have lots of data," but you don't have the data which we have. In the past, we said, we are not going to share the data with third parties. And recently we have changed that, and say, "Yeah, there is a price for that. We'll do that." So we are branding ourselves as a smart data company, where the whole industry is talking about smart analytics. And I said, "We make smart people smarter." And lastly, the value system of NETSCOUT is called lean, but not mean, okay? Anybody can get lean. If you get fat, you can get the operation. But how do you do lean decision making so you never have to be in mean? Like NETSCOUT never had to lay off in the last 35 years, we have ups and down, our stock has gone to $3 and has gone to $40, but companies continued to invest, and that's why we have this reputation we have, whether it's (indistinct). The tenure at NETSCOUT is 10, 15 years minimum, even in sales, and people don't realize the power of that because some of our customers tell us, "Hey, your salespeople are around longer than our employees." And that (indistinct) builds a franchise of loyalty in the customer base. We underestimate that, this continuity part. So that in many aspect of not, what is the definition of not being mean, that lean and mean is sort of people are very proud of that. And I think you can be lean without being mean. And then how do you become lean, is don't hire when in good times, unless you need them. The reason people are able to do it, is because they think "I can fire anytime, so let's build up the fat." So there a lot of decision-making we do around this, and that's what I talk about in the book, it's not about technology, and this is, I would say is just one of the five tenets, but it's probably one of the most important ones. And it's one of the biggest differentiators of NETSCOUT. >> Well, it's obviously served you well, I mean, no layoffs in 35 years, the retention metric is very impressive. I mean, again, I go back to my experience. I was at IDG for 15 years. My passion was always to start my own company, but I didn't want to leave 'cause it was such a great culture, and it seems like you've created something similar. You know, I talk to CIOs and CTOs a lot too about, it's always people, process, technology. And of course we want to talk about tech 'cause we love talking about tech, but they always tell me, "Look, tech comes and goes," it's the processes that you put in place, the culture that you have in place, we could deal with the tech, and it sounds like you've created a similar dynamic. And I think back again, when you started, there were proprietary networks, it was IBM SNA, DEC network, every mini computer had its own network. Then, you know, TCP/IP came in and the whole world changed and exploded. But yet you said guardians of the connected world, and that's kind of been your focus from really day one. You know, I loved what you said about the business. The network is the business. Remember the network is the computer that Scott McNealy popularized. So really kind of a similar dynamic there. So it seems, Anil, that that framework that you just laid out, those core principles, have actually allowed you to ebb, to flow, to deal with stock prices and still retain people for very long periods of time. >> Maybe one more thing to add there is that on the lean but not, many talk about generalities. We don't look any different. Like everyone cares about happy customers. They care about happy employees and they care about happy stakeholders, shareholders. Everyone, including us. But what's the order? Where do you start? So we start with employees. We say happy employees, then we get happy customers. And then because of that, they buy more stuff and we create happy shareholders. Whereas if you start with happy shareholders, you may not get happy employees. And so all I'm saying is that everyone probably believes in what we are saying or what I'm saying, but how they implement it, and then like really walking the talk is the most important part. >> Well, I think you're right. I mean, I think the financials is a by-product of happy employees, which drive happy customers. If you take care of employees and customers, then good things will happen. If you start with trying to micromanage the finances. Of course, we all attempted to do that. I wonder if we could talk a little bit about, so just to bring it forward a little bit, we're talking about how NETSCOUT has essentially from a cultural standpoint, been able to withstand the ups, the downs, I mean, you've seen since, you know, it's over 35 years, a lot of the downturns and the tech softness, the tech bubbles, the great recession. Obviously now we're in the middle of a pandemic. And I wonder if you could talk to that specifically. So the data that we have from our survey partner, ETR, Enterprise Technology Research, shows that before the pandemic around 16% of employees worked from home, we're talking about truly remote workers, not, you know, a couple of days a week. And when we talk to CIOs today, they tell us it's well over 70% now, but they fully expect that when, you know, the world comes back to the new abnormal, I call it, that number's going to, that 16% is going to double to, more than double to 34%. So it puts stress on the network. It changes the direction of the traffic. It changes the security emphasis. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that just in terms of how you are helping your customers respond, specifically. >> So I always talk about like, is this a new problem or is the bad problem getting worse? So I contend that bad problem getting worse. So if you make the bad to zero, then you can't multiply. So I think it's highlighting some of the problems which are already there, are being highlighted by, a lot of people are telling, "Are you seeing more attacks?" No, we are becoming more conscious of the attacks we always had. We have more time, by the way, hackers have more time too, because they're also sitting at home doing things. So what I feel is that, two parts. One is that I think people should not, when the new normal comes, or new abnormal, then I think people should not make people work from home for the wrong reason. Certain people are saying, "Oh, I can save money." That's the wrong reason. But if it's efficient, we should do that. So we are doing some interesting things for home users to feel how they can feel that they're really working from the office. And so, yeah, there are some new challenges on how we monitor, because when the user complains now about the performance to IT, because they can't get their work, they don't know whether it's our network or is the ISP, or is their wifi network. So we try to provide the root cause analysis as quickly as possible, which we call mean time to know. And one of the things I didn't mention earlier, about what is the uniqueness of our technology when we use the network vantage point to drive visibility, it's almost like the blood test. When you have a problem, if you tell the doctor, I say "Hey, what is my problem?" And they start looking at all kinds of things. It's going to take forever. But if I take the blood test, I will know what the next thing to do. So in a way, we are doing the blood test of the user experience, security problems. And when we do that, we can come up with some very unique things. So we think that we'll be moving on into other areas, or the visibility is the means to an end, the end could be performance management, could be visibility, troubleshooting, and could be security forensics. Like blood tests can be used for DNA evidence also. And so we have all the technology, so we are moving on, as we move to the home user, we are applying that our techniques, not just for service assurance or end user experience monitoring, but also for security forensics. And one example I give you the, I always talk more than you'll see that in my book, being different before being better. First be different, get the ear flecks out of the ideas before you tell the story. And you don't do that, even though we are very big, we are very small compared to a lot of companies in the industry, compared to big players like Cisco, IBM, and all those. So the new thing which we are looking at in security is, the security industry is catching the act. We are going to catch the actors. If I can get into the, what they were doing before the act, before they did the ransomware, what were they doing? Well, that requires continuous monitoring of the traffic. And that's what we do. So when we do catch the actor, catching the thief, not what they're stealing, then you're preventing tomorrow's attack. And that's basically the innovation part of NETSCOUT, which we have been pushing for. But we somehow decided not to apply that to security because we had other problems to be solved as guardians of the connected world from a monitoring point of view. And so those are some of the things we'll be applying as we move forward. And I feel that those are equally applicable before the pandemic and after the pandemic. And it's just polarized more, because more people are working from home. >> It's interesting what you're saying about the blood test. That's a great analogy because it kind of eliminates the guesswork, and removes the opaqueness. It goes right to sort of the heart of the matter, you called it mean time to know. And it's interesting too, to look at productivity. I mentioned some of the survey work, when we talk to organizations, they say to us that actually productivity has gone up since the pandemic. And my response to that is, "Yeah, no kidding. 'Cause people are working 15 hour days." You can't keep that up. And the silent killer of productivity is the not, having an elongated mean time to know, and having to guess. And so my premise is that this productivity gain, if in fact it exists, is not sustainable because we're doing it on the backs of our employees and it's going to burn 'em out. >> I'm not sure whether it's real also, see, there are both sides. It's not possible, practical, as you are saying, because for example, you are a salesperson and you are working six, seven hours and you're traveling six hours. You can't be on the phone for 12 hours with a customer right now. So I don't talk and then be productive, there are both sides going, some people are overworked. And so definition of productivity itself is in question. And how do you measure that? And so that's what we'll have to look, I think basically all I'm saying is we should do it, whatever we do after the pandemic is over, about how many people work from home, should be based on your business model, your expectation, not just based on cost. And a lot of people are looking at once again, "Oh, this is another cost saving exercise." And that should not be the reason, that's the wrong reason, because then they're measuring the productivity in terms of reduced cost, not everything else. Plus at least in NETSCOUT, is a company which, I mean, every meeting I go to, I use chalkboard, and it's very very hard for other companies, somebody like IBM, where most of the people work, there are 50 offices. What is the easy transition? It's not easy for NETSCOUT. And so right now we focus on safety, but we need to come up with a good hybrid model later on, and different people will set up differently. But what we do will be relevant in all cases. >> Yeah, but I think you're making a good point that it's not some kind of mandate to drive costs down. Or we saw last decade, there were a couple of prominent companies that were mandating actually working in the office, eliminating work from home. So obviously the wrong side of history, you know, they didn't know a pandemic was coming, but so how will you make that decision? Will you, is it really a discussion case by case with the employees or what's the framework for you guys to decide that? >> Well, I think so right now, our focus is on safety. So it's completely optional. In fact, we don't even allow more than 20%, and that's only in the headquarters, other places, we have less than 5% people coming, and only essential workers, manufacturing and all those. So right now it's completely optional. But my personal preference when there is no risk is people should come to work like they were coming before. We like to make it as close as possible to the old normal, but that's not going to be the case for other companies because they're bigger in size, they have other things at play, but certainly we are not going to do it, "Oh, because it's cheaper for NETSCOUT, when people work from home." And so we we'll see how it goes. I think it will be a transition, but I can see going back to new normal in a year from now, if things start winding down in six months, within a year or so, we should be getting back to some normalcy. But that doesn't mean going to be true for our customers. So from a product point of view, we are doing several things so we can help the customer through this transition. And by the way, one other thing I wanted to mention earlier, when we talk about the blood test, how does it relate to guardians of the connected world? If you believe in that, what did the industry do? They made sure needles were not painful. That blood test was reliable. There is no hygiene issues or no issues like that. The cost has come down. As the guardian of the connected world, because we do that, that's what we have been doing. We are removing the barriers to a great idea, but not all other companies give up. And then they have different strategies and some of them are successful, some are not. So as the guardian of the connected world, our goal is to continue to make this practical use. Imagine if blood test industry had not done that, where we'll be right now. And that's what I meant by guardian of the connected world. This is not easy to do and sustain that for a period of 20, 30 years. But we have been able to do that, and we get a lot of challenges from naysayers, "Oh, this will not work at high speed." When I started NETSCOUT, it was 10 megabit internet. Now we have 100 gig internet, and we are still able to handle it. And nobody had thought in those days that you can even get to 100 megs. People were questioning us. But what happens is other things keep working in the market. Intel is making improvements, lot of people are doing work to solve the problem, and we leverage that. And that's how we are able to sort of sustain this guardian of the connected world team. >> The other key aspect of the guardian of the connected world, and again, not to overdo the blood test analogy, but the time to results is very important. If you have an issue and you have to wait weeks for the results and your doctor, you can't get ahold of her. And so you're successfully dealing with that in real time or near real time, and that to me is critical. >> Very important point, thanks for reminding because I forgot today, that's one of the things I say all the time, "Hey, this one of the big thing we have done, and blood test industry has done it. How long take to get results?" Nowadays you can get results done in like two hours, and doctors can get a report in couple of hours. That's what we had done. That's like mean time to know, which we talked about. With our technology, I think we had basically all the issues, you can't even breathe without doing something on the network. So if you're listening to the traffic or hearing what the conversation, you can form an independent view of what is happening. And that's the smart data, which then becomes the basis of analytics, whether analytics in the security space or not. And so that one thing we have not changed, this technique. Now, the outcomes are different. What are we doing with our visibility is different. Is keep changing the number of customers and the type of customers are different. But ultimately that part interestingly has not changed. >> I wonder if I could ask you, I'd like to ask CEOs, especially those that are technologists and business leaders, their thoughts on the cloud. I mean, our data shows that the public cloud is growing in the 30% plus range annually, the big three public cloud players now account this year, probably for close to $75 billion in revenue, maybe even a little bit more, what do you see driving this growth? What does it mean for your customers? >> I think first of all, we have a big announcement coming out called smart cloud monitoring to address this. But what's the meaning of that? I think what our customers are looking for is that it's not all or nothing. It's not that everything is in the cloud or everything is in the on-prem, it could be private cloud, public cloud, (indistinct), the way VPNs are laid out. So they want to make sure that they can use our technology to do this (indistinct) and analytics, regardless of what decision they make. And even five years from now, there'll be enough non-cloud stuff, okay? So that's what we are striving to do. That's what is visibility without borders, and when they do that, they're saying that helps them decide what's the best mode of operation for them, for what application. Moving blindly to the cloud is a problem. Not going into that area is also a problem. But I think this, the two new things that have happened recently, I will say one is sort of, because of this crisis, people don't want to own, like the hospitality industry. This would, I mean, they're obviously having big issues with them, but if they own a lot of the infrastructure, they could have turned off some of that. And so that's driving more movement to the cloud, but I think there is now other choices available, about a year or two ago, I think affordable pricing model, multiple choices, not just AWS, and technology maturing where you can really implement and have a good experience. I think those have become big enablers. And so I think now it is possible to get to massive movement to the cloud, but then they want to make sure that I'm outsourcing my problem, but I'm not outsourcing my vision to the cloud vendors, because previously the way in the IT industry, a lot of problems were solved is, it was called the war room. Let's get everyone who reports to me and everyone who reported to you, but now everyone doesn't report to you. So how do you maintain the control? Man, I complain to my CIO, "Hey, my WebEx is slow," or "Office (indistinct)," and how do they resolve that problem? Because they cannot tell me, "Oh, we outsourced them, so I can't tell you that," well, we should not have outsourced them to the cloud. So how do you drive this collaboration between the providers and the consumers? Is going to be key to accelerating this transformation. Because otherwise the cost of CapEx cost of a deduction of moving to the cloud will be offset by the increase in OpEx and customer satisfaction for the customer. And so if we can help deal with one of the parts, industry is already doing the other big part of making cloud work, I think then we'll have the best chance of success. >> Yeah. And of course the security has implications on the security model. You were talking earlier about that, as an opportunity, people sometimes think, "Oh yeah, I put my data in the cloud. I'm good on security." But there's a shared responsibility. Again, we talked about different traffic patterns. You've got work from home going on. And it's interesting when you juxtapose the sort of industry narrative on security, which is it gets harder and harder and harder, and you hear some of the cloud players say, "Hey, the state of security is really good," but when you talk to CISOs, they'll talk about the lack of talent, the challenges they have, the tools creep, the fact that they spend more, but the adversaries just keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger. It's a really serious problem. I mean, maybe we close there. I mean kind of, how do you see it from your vantage point? >> Let's look at the blood test. So I look at, if you do the technique which we are talking about, at least in the dimension of security monitoring, then you are going to do a lot of little things, because you're doing little things, you're going to be (indistinct) tool creep, and because of that, you have a talent issue. And I think if we can make the right stuff work, then you will not have this talent issue, and I feel that we are always looking at solving yesterday's problem, okay? Because we are not watching what led to the attack. We are just dealing with the attack as an incident, a security issue. So I think continuous monitoring of traffic allows you to look at the deviation of the normal. So signature-based security is a big portion, but how do you know the signature of tomorrow? And while you know that because you know the normal, but the only way you know normal is if you have been monitoring what was going on, not for a specific event, but deviation from normal. That's what our approach is going to be, anomalous behavior detection through our smart data. And then you apply machine learning and AI algorithms to that. I think that would be Nirvana. But we don't have all the smart people for analytics, but we can feed our data to those smart people. And that's something we are going to bring up, and the reason I feel it will be successful because this idea has been wildly successful for NETSCOUT in the non-security space. >> Yeah. I think you're bringing up another point that I've talked about a lot, which is the industry has gone from sort of an industry of products to platforms, and now ecosystems is really driving a lot of the innovation. That's exactly what you're talking about. Feeding data to other partners, data partners. Now you start thinking about IoT and the edge, and machines talking to machines. I mean, I put video cameras up in my house to make my environment more secure, but of course I'm scared to death that those things could get hacked. It's a very complicated situation, and the power of many is going to trump the resources of one. And so I'm glad you brought that out. Maybe give us your final thoughts, Anil. It really has been a pleasure talking to you. >> Well, I think one of the things people ask me is, "Why didn't you start another company?" Especially in Silicon Valley, I say, "We did start many companies, but they all happen to be called NETSCOUT." NETSCOUT 1.0 or 2.0 or 3.0, actually, we are into the 4.0. I sometimes say, "You know George Foreman's four sons, they're all called George Foreman." So every time we do something different, and now we are in the process of launching NETSCOUT 5.0, it was partly because, maybe accelerated because of what's going on with the pandemic, because there are some new challenges which (indistinct), and we are entering the security space. So I'm very excited about repeating what we did in the traditional monitoring space, service insurance space, both for enterprise and carriers, to the security space. And people will question us how come it took so long. Well, we were solving other problems, which are more interesting than this for NETSCOUT. And now we want to bring that technology and all of our tenets, guardian of the connected world, smart data, to the security space. And also, I mean, people are around for long term, we are also building the next generation of leaders at NETSCOUT. And so we have our hands full over the next two, three years, in building the next generation of NETSCOUT, solving some of the problems the industry is facing, without abandoning our tenets and the culture. And if we can do that, I think there'll be, we'll be going to the next level, in terms of NETSCOUT branding and leadership. >> Well, given the guiding principles that you shared with us earlier, the fundamental technology that you have around visibility, I think that's served you very well. And I think there's no shortage of opportunity for NETSCOUT. So, Anil, thanks so much for sharing your story and coming on theCUBE. >> Good. Thank you. >> And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. 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(water running) (upbeat music) (electric buzzing) >> Fuel up! (upbeat music) (audience clapping) (upbeat music) >> Announcer: From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome to DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE I'm in our Palo Alto studios with our quarantine crew. We have a great lineup here for DockerCon 2020. Virtual event, normally it was in person face to face. I'll be with you throughout the day from an amazing lineup of content, over 50 different sessions, cube tracks, keynotes, and we've got two great co-hosts here with Docker, Jenny Burcio and Bret Fisher. We'll be with you all day today, taking you through the program, helping you navigate the sessions. I'm so excited. Jenny, this is a virtual event. We talk about this. Can you believe it? Maybe the internet gods be with us today and hope everyone's having-- >> Yes. >> Easy time getting in. Jenny, Bret, thank you for-- >> Hello. >> Being here. >> Hey. >> Hi everyone, so great to see everyone chatting and telling us where they're from. Welcome to the Docker community. We have a great day planned for you. >> Guys great job getting this all together. I know how hard it is. These virtual events are hard to pull off. I'm blown away by the community at Docker. The amount of sessions that are coming in the sponsor support has been amazing. Just the overall excitement around the brand and the opportunities given this tough times where we're in. It's super exciting again, made the internet gods be with us throughout the day, but there's plenty of content. Bret's got an amazing all day marathon group of people coming in and chatting. Jenny, this has been an amazing journey and it's a great opportunity. Tell us about the virtual event. Why DockerCon virtual. Obviously everyone's canceling their events, but this is special to you guys. Talk about DockerCon virtual this year. >> The Docker community shows up at DockerCon every year, and even though we didn't have the opportunity to do an in person event this year, we didn't want to lose the time that we all come together at DockerCon. The conversations, the amazing content and learning opportunities. So we decided back in December to make DockerCon a virtual event. And of course when we did that, there was no quarantine we didn't expect, you know, I certainly didn't expect to be delivering it from my living room, but we were just, I mean we were completely blown away. There's nearly 70,000 people across the globe that have registered for DockerCon today. And when you look at DockerCon of past right live events, really and we're learning are just the tip of the iceberg and so thrilled to be able to deliver a more inclusive global event today. And we have so much planned I think. Bret, you want to tell us some of the things that you have planned? >> Well, I'm sure I'm going to forget something 'cause there's a lot going on. But, we've obviously got interviews all day today on this channel with John and the crew. Jenny has put together an amazing set of all these speakers, and then you have the captain's on deck, which is essentially the YouTube live hangout where we just basically talk shop. It's all engineers, all day long. Captains and special guests. And we're going to be in chat talking to you about answering your questions. Maybe we'll dig into some stuff based on the problems you're having or the questions you have. Maybe there'll be some random demos, but it's basically not scripted, it's an all day long unscripted event. So I'm sure it's going to be a lot of fun hanging out in there. >> Well guys, I want to just say it's been amazing how you structured this so everyone has a chance to ask questions, whether it's informal laid back in the captain's channel or in the sessions, where the speakers will be there with their presentations. But Jenny, I want to get your thoughts because we have a site out there that's structured a certain way for the folks watching. If you're on your desktop, there's a main stage hero. There's then tracks and Bret's running the captain's tracks. You can click on that link and jump into his session all day long. He's got an amazing set of line of sleet, leaning back, having a good time. And then each of the tracks, you can jump into those sessions. It's on a clock, it'll be available on demand. All that content is available if you're on your desktop. If you're on your mobile, it's the same thing. Look at the calendar, find the session that you want. If you're interested in it, you could watch it live and chat with the participants in real time or watch it on demand. So there's plenty of content to navigate through. We do have it on a clock and we'll be streaming sessions as they happen. So you're in the moment and that's a great time to chat in real time. But there's more, Jenny, getting more out of this event. You guys try to bring together the stimulation of community. How does the participants get more out of the the event besides just consuming some of the content all day today? >> Yes, so first set up your profile, put your picture next to your chat handle and then chat. John said we have various setups today to help you get the most out of your experience are breakout sessions. The content is prerecorded, so you get quality content and the speakers and chat so you can ask questions the whole time. If you're looking for the hallway track, then definitely check out the captain's on deck channel. And then we have some great interviews all day on the queue. So set up your profile, join the conversation and be kind, right? This is a community event. Code of conduct is linked on every page at the top, and just have a great day. >> And Bret, you guys have an amazing lineup on the captain, so you have a great YouTube channel that you have your stream on. So the folks who were familiar with that can get that either on YouTube or on the site. The chat is integrated in, So you're set up, what do you got going on? Give us the highlights. What are you excited about throughout your day? Take us through your program on the captains. That's going to be probably pretty dynamic in the chat too. >> Yeah, so I'm sure we're going to have lots of, stuff going on in chat. So no cLancaerns there about, having crickets in the chat. But we're going to be basically starting the day with two of my good Docker captain friends, (murmurs) and Laura Taco. And we're going to basically start you out and at the end of this keynote, at the end of this hour and we're going to get you going and then you can maybe jump out and go to take some sessions. Maybe there's some stuff you want to check out and other sessions that you want to chat and talk with the instructors, the speakers there, and then you're going to come back to us, right? Or go over, check out the interviews. So the idea is you're hopping back and forth and throughout the day we're basically changing out every hour. We're not just changing out the guests basically, but we're also changing out the topics that we can cover because different guests will have different expertise. We're going to have some special guests in from Microsoft, talk about some of the cool stuff going on there, and basically it's captains all day long. And if you've been on my YouTube live show you've watched that, you've seen a lot of the guests we have on there. I'm lucky to just hang out with all these really awesome people around the world, so it's going to be fun. >> Awesome and the content again has been preserved. You guys had a great session on call for paper sessions. Jenny, this is good stuff. What other things can people do to make it interesting? Obviously we're looking for suggestions. Feel free to chirp on Twitter about ideas that can be new. But you guys got some surprises. There's some selfies, what else? What's going on? Any secret, surprises throughout the day. >> There are secret surprises throughout the day. You'll need to pay attention to the keynotes. Bret will have giveaways. I know our wonderful sponsors have giveaways planned as well in their sessions. Hopefully right you feel conflicted about what you're going to attend. So do know that everything is recorded and will be available on demand afterwards so you can catch anything that you miss. Most of them will be available right after they stream the initial time. >> All right, great stuff, so they've got the Docker selfie. So the Docker selfies, the hashtag is just DockerCon hashtag DockerCon. If you feel like you want to add some of the hashtag no problem, check out the sessions. You can pop in and out of the captains is kind of the cool kids are going to be hanging out with Bret and then all they'll knowledge and learning. Don't miss the keynote, the keynote should be solid. We've got chain Governor from red monk delivering a keynote. I'll be interviewing him live after his keynote. So stay with us. And again, check out the interactive calendar. All you got to do is look at the calendar and click on the session you want. You'll jump right in. Hop around, give us feedback. We're doing our best. Bret, any final thoughts on what you want to share to the community around, what you got going on the virtual event, just random thoughts? >> Yeah, so sorry we can't all be together in the same physical place. But the coolest thing about as business online, is that we actually get to involve everyone, so as long as you have a computer and internet, you can actually attend DockerCon if you've never been to one before. So we're trying to recreate that experience online. Like Jenny said, the code of conduct is important. So, we're all in this together with the chat, so try to be nice in there. These are all real humans that, have feelings just like me. So let's try to keep it cool. And, over in the Catherine's channel we'll be taking your questions and maybe playing some music, playing some games, giving away some free stuff, while you're, in between sessions learning, oh yeah. >> And I got to say props to your rig. You've got an amazing setup there, Bret. I love what your show, you do. It's really bad ass and kick ass. So great stuff. Jenny sponsors ecosystem response to this event has been phenomenal. The attendance 67,000. We're seeing a surge of people hitting the site now. So if you're not getting in, just, Wade's going, we're going to crank through the queue, but the sponsors on the ecosystem really delivered on the content side and also the sport. You want to share a few shout outs on the sponsors who really kind of helped make this happen. >> Yeah, so definitely make sure you check out the sponsor pages and you go, each page is the actual content that they will be delivering. So they are delivering great content to you. So you can learn and a huge thank you to our platinum and gold authors. >> Awesome, well I got to say, I'm super impressed. I'm looking forward to the Microsoft Amazon sessions, which are going to be good. And there's a couple of great customer sessions there. I tweeted this out last night and let them get you guys' reaction to this because there's been a lot of talk around the COVID crisis that we're in, but there's also a positive upshot to this is Cambridge and explosion of developers that are going to be building new apps. And I said, you know, apps aren't going to just change the world, they're going to save the world. So a lot of the theme here is the impact that developers are having right now in the current situation. If we get the goodness of compose and all the things going on in Docker and the relationships, this real impact happening with the developer community. And it's pretty evident in the program and some of the talks and some of the examples. how containers and microservices are certainly changing the world and helping save the world, your thoughts. >> Like you said, a number of sessions and interviews in the program today that really dive into that. And even particularly around COVID, Clement Beyondo is sharing his company's experience, from being able to continue operations in Italy when they were completely shut down beginning of March. We have also in theCUBE channel several interviews about from the national Institute of health and precision cancer medicine at the end of the day. And you just can really see how containerization and developers are moving in industry and really humanity forward because of what they're able to build and create, with advances in technology. >> Yeah and the first responders and these days is developers. Bret compose is getting a lot of traction on Twitter. I can see some buzz already building up. There's huge traction with compose, just the ease of use and almost a call for arms for integrating into all the system language libraries, I mean, what's going on with compose? I mean, what's the captain say about this? I mean, it seems to be really tracking in terms of demand and interest. >> I think we're over 700,000 composed files on GitHub. So it's definitely beyond just the standard Docker run commands. It's definitely the next tool that people use to run containers. Just by having that we just buy, and that's not even counting. I mean that's just counting the files that are named Docker compose YAML. So I'm sure a lot of you out there have created a YAML file to manage your local containers or even on a server with Docker compose. And the nice thing is is Docker is doubling down on that. So we've gotten some news recently, from them about what they want to do with opening the spec up, getting more companies involved because compose is already gathered so much interest from the community. You know, AWS has importers, there's Kubernetes importers for it. So there's more stuff coming and we might just see something here in a few minutes. >> All right, well let's get into the keynote guys, jump into the keynote. If you missing anything, come back to the stream, check out the sessions, check out the calendar. Let's go, let's have a great time. Have some fun, thanks and enjoy the rest of the day we'll see you soon. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) >> Okay, what is the name of that Whale? >> Molly. >> And what is the name of this Whale? >> Mobby. >> That's right, dad's got to go, thanks bud. >> Bye. >> Bye. Hi, I'm Scott Johnson, CEO of Docker and welcome to DockerCon 2020. This year DockerCon is an all virtual event with more than 60,000 members of the Docker Community joining from around the world. And with the global shelter in place policies, we're excited to offer a unifying, inclusive virtual community event in which anyone and everyone can participate from their home. As a company, Docker has been through a lot of changes since our last DockerCon last year. The most important starting last November, is our refocusing 100% on developers and development teams. As part of that refocusing, one of the big challenges we've been working on, is how to help development teams quickly and efficiently get their app from code to cloud And wouldn't it be cool, if developers could quickly deploy to the cloud right from their local environment with the commands and workflow they already know. We're excited to give you a sneak preview of what we've been working on. And rather than slides, we thought we jumped right into the product. And joining me demonstrate some of these cool new features, is enclave your DACA. One of our engineers here at Docker working on Docker compose. Hello Lanca. >> Hello. >> We're going to show how an application development team collaborates using Docker desktop and Docker hub. And then deploys the app directly from the Docker command line to the clouds in just two commands. A development team would use this to quickly share functional changes of their app with the product management team, with beta testers or other development teams. Let's go ahead and take a look at our app. Now, this is a web app, that randomly pulls words from the database, and assembles them into sentences. You can see it's a pretty typical three tier application with each tier implemented in its own container. We have a front end web service, a middle tier, which implements the logic to randomly pull the words from the database and assemble them and a backend database. And here you can see the database uses the Postgres official image from Docker hub. Now let's first run the app locally using Docker command line and the Docker engine in Docker desktop. We'll do a Doc compose up and you can see that it's pulling the containers from our Docker organization account. Wordsmith, inc. Now that it's up. Let's go ahead and look at local host and we'll confirm that the application is functioning as desired. So there's one sentence, let's pull and now you and you can indeed see that we are pulling random words and assembling into sentences. Now you can also see though that the look and feel is a bit dated. And so Lanca is going to show us how easy it is to make changes and share them with the rest of the team. Lanca, over to you. >> Thank you, so I have, the source code of our application on my machine and I have updated it with the latest team from DockerCon 2020. So before committing the code, I'm going to build the application locally and run it, to verify that indeed the changes are good. So I'm going to build with Docker compose the image for the web service. Now that the image has been built, I'm going to deploy it locally. Wait to compose up. We can now check the dashboard in a Docker desktop that indeed our containers are up and running, and we can access, we can open in the web browser, the end point for the web service. So as we can see, we have the latest changes in for our application. So as you can see, the application has been updated successfully. So now, I'm going to push the image that I have just built to my organization's shared repository on Docker hub. So I can do this with Docker compose push web. Now that the image has been updated in the Docker hub repository, or my teammates can access it and check the changes. >> Excellent, well, thank you Lanca. Now of course, in these times, video conferencing is the new normal, and as great as it is, video conferencing does not allow users to actually test the application. And so, to allow us to have our app be accessible by others outside organizations such as beta testers or others, let's go ahead and deploy to the cloud. >> Sure we, can do this by employing a context. A Docker context, is a mechanism that we can use to target different platforms for deploying containers. The context we hold, information as the endpoint for the platform, and also how to authenticate to it. So I'm going to list the context that I have set locally. As you can see, I'm currently using the default context that is pointing to my local Docker engine. So all the commands that I have issued so far, we're targeting my local engine. Now, in order to deploy the application on a cloud. I have an account in the Azure Cloud, where I have no resource running currently, and I have created for this account, dedicated context that will hold the information on how to connect it to it. So now all I need to do, is to switch to this context, with Docker context use, and the name of my cloud context. So all the commands that I'm going to run, from now on, are going to target the cloud platform. So we can also check very, more simpler, in a simpler way we can check the running containers with Docker PS. So as we see no container is running in my cloud account. Now to deploy the application, all I need to do is to run a Docker compose up. And this will trigger the deployment of my application. >> Thanks Lanca. Now notice that Lanca did not have to move the composed file from Docker desktop to Azure. Notice you have to make any changes to the Docker compose file, and nor did she change any of the containers that she and I were using locally in our local environments. So the same composed file, same images, run locally and upon Azure without changes. While the app is deploying to Azure, let's highlight some of the features in Docker hub that helps teams with remote first collaboration. So first, here's our team's account where it (murmurs) and you can see the updated container sentences web that Lanca just pushed a couple of minutes ago. As far as collaboration, we can add members using their Docker ID or their email, and then we can organize them into different teams depending on their role in the application development process. So and then Lancae they're organized into different teams, we can assign them permissions, so that teams can work in parallel without stepping on each other's changes accidentally. For example, we'll give the engineering team full read, write access, whereas the product management team will go ahead and just give read only access. So this role based access controls, is just one of the many features in Docker hub that allows teams to collaboratively and quickly develop applications. Okay Lanca, how's our app doing? >> Our app has been successfully deployed to the cloud. So, we can easily check either the Azure portal to verify the containers running for it or simpler we can run a Docker PS again to get the list with the containers that have been deployed for it. In the output from the Docker PS, we can see an end point that we can use to access our application in the web browser. So we can see the application running in clouds. It's really up to date and now we can take this particular endpoint and share it within our organization such that anybody can have a look at it. >> That's cool Onka. We showed how we can deploy an app to the cloud in minutes and just two commands, and using commands that Docker users already know, thanks so much. In that sneak preview, you saw a team developing an app collaboratively, with a tool chain that includes Docker desktop and Docker hub. And simply by switching Docker context from their local environment to the cloud, deploy that app to the cloud, to Azure without leaving the command line using Docker commands they already know. And in doing so, really simplifying for development team, getting their app from code to cloud. And just as important, what you did not see, was a lot of complexity. You did not see cloud specific interfaces, user management or security. You did not see us having to provision and configure compute networking and storage resources in the cloud. And you did not see infrastructure specific application changes to either the composed file or the Docker images. And by simplifying a way that complexity, these new features help application DevOps teams, quickly iterate and get their ideas, their apps from code to cloud, and helping development teams, build share and run great applications, is what Docker is all about. A Docker is able to simplify for development teams getting their app from code to cloud quickly as a result of standards, products and ecosystem partners. It starts with open standards for applications and application artifacts, and active open source communities around those standards to ensure portability and choice. Then as you saw in the demo, the Docker experience delivered by Docker desktop and Docker hub, simplifies a team's collaborative development of applications, and together with ecosystem partners provides every stage of an application development tool chain. For example, deploying applications to the cloud in two commands. What you saw on the demo, well that's an extension of our strategic partnership with Microsoft, which we announced yesterday. And you can learn more about our partnership from Amanda Silver from Microsoft later today, right here at DockerCon. Another tool chain stage, the capability to scan applications for security and vulnerabilities, as a result of our partnership with Sneak, which we announced last week. You can learn more about that partnership from Peter McKay, CEO Sneak, again later today, right here at DockerCon. A third example, development team can automate the build of container images upon a simple get push, as a result of Docker hub integrations with GitHub and Alaska and Bitbucket. As a final example of Docker and the ecosystem helping teams quickly build applications, together with our ISV partners. We offer in Docker hub over 500 official and verified publisher images of ready to run Dockerized application components such as databases, load balancers, programming languages, and much more. Of course, none of this happens without people. And I would like to take a moment to thank four groups of people in particular. First, the Docker team, past and present. We've had a challenging 12 months including a restructuring and then a global pandemic, and yet their support for each other, and their passion for the product, this community and our customers has never been stronger. We think our community, Docker wouldn't be Docker without you, and whether you're one of the 50 Docker captains, they're almost 400 meetup organizers, the thousands of contributors and maintainers. Every day you show up, you give back, you teach new support. We thank our users, more than six and a half million developers who have built more than 7 million applications and are then sharing those applications through Docker hub at a rate of more than one and a half billion poles per week. Those apps are then run, are more than 44 million Docker engines. And finally, we thank our customers, the over 18,000 docker subscribers, both individual developers and development teams from startups to large organizations, 60% of which are outside the United States. And they spend every industry vertical, from media, to entertainment to manufacturing. healthcare and much more. Thank you. Now looking forward, given these unprecedented times, we would like to offer a challenge. While it would be easy to feel helpless and miss this global pandemic, the challenge is for us as individuals and as a community to instead see and grasp the tremendous opportunities before us to be forces for good. For starters, look no further than the pandemic itself, in the fight against this global disaster, applications and data are playing a critical role, and the Docker Community quickly recognize this and rose to the challenge. There are over 600 COVID-19 related publicly available projects on Docker hub today, from data processing to genome analytics to data visualization folding at home. The distributed computing project for simulating protein dynamics, is also available on Docker hub, and it uses spirit compute capacity to analyze COVID-19 proteins to aid in the design of new therapies. And right here at DockerCon, you can hear how Clemente Biondo and his company engineering in Gagne area Informatica are using Docker in the fight with COVID-19 in Italy every day. Now, in addition to fighting the pandemic directly, as a community, we also have an opportunity to bridge the disruption the pandemic is wreaking. It's impacting us at work and at home in every country around the world and every aspect of our lives. For example, many of you have a student at home, whose world is going to be very different when they returned to school. As employees, all of us have experienced the stresses from working from home as well as many of the benefits and in fact 75% of us say that going forward, we're going to continue to work from home at least occasionally. And of course one of the biggest disruptions has been job losses, over 35 million in the United States alone. And we know that's affected many of you. And yet your skills are in such demand and so important now more than ever. And that's why here at DockerCon, we want to try to do our part to help, and we're promoting this hashtag on Twitter, hashtag DockerCon jobs, where job seekers and those offering jobs can reach out to one another and connect. Now, pandemics disruption is accelerating the shift of more and more of our time, our priorities, our dollars from offline to online to hybrid, and even online only ways of living. We need to find new ways to collaborate, new approaches to engage customers, new modes for education and much more. And what is going to fill the needs created by this acceleration from offline, online? New applications. And it's this need, this demand for all these new applications that represents a great opportunity for the Docker community of developers. The world needs us, needs you developers now more than ever. So let's seize this moment. Let us in our teams, go build share and run great new applications. Thank you for joining today. And let's have a great DockerCon. >> Okay, welcome back to the DockerCon studio headquarters in your hosts, Jenny Burcio and myself John Furrier. u@farrier on Twitter. If you want to tweet me anything @DockerCon as well, share what you're thinking. Great keynote there from Scott CEO. Jenny, demo DockerCon jobs, some highlights there from Scott. Yeah, I love the intro. It's okay I'm about to do the keynote. The little green room comes on, makes it human. We're all trying to survive-- >> Let me answer the reality of what we are all doing with right now. I had to ask my kids to leave though or they would crash the whole stream but yes, we have a great community, a large community gather gathered here today, and we do want to take the opportunity for those that are looking for jobs, are hiring, to share with the hashtag DockerCon jobs. In addition, we want to support direct health care workers, and Bret Fisher and the captains will be running a all day charity stream on the captain's channel. Go there and you'll get the link to donate to directrelief.org which is a California based nonprofit, delivering and aid and supporting health care workers globally response to the COVID-19 crisis. >> Okay, if you jumping into the stream, I'm John Farrie with Jenny Webby, your hosts all day today throughout DockerCon. It's a packed house of great content. You have a main stream, theCUBE which is the mainstream that we'll be promoting a lot of cube interviews. But check out the 40 plus sessions underneath in the interactive calendar on dockercon.com site. Check it out, they're going to be live on a clock. So if you want to participate in real time in the chat, jump into your session on the track of your choice and participate with the folks in there chatting. If you miss it, it's going to go right on demand right after sort of all content will be immediately be available. So make sure you check it out. Docker selfie is a hashtag. Take a selfie, share it. Docker hashtag Docker jobs. If you're looking for a job or have openings, please share with the community and of course give us feedback on what you can do. We got James Governor, the keynote coming up next. He's with Red monk. Not afraid to share his opinion on open source on what companies should be doing, and also the evolution of this Cambrin explosion of apps that are going to be coming as we come out of this post pandemic world. A lot of people are thinking about this, the crisis and following through. So stay with us for more and more coverage. Jenny, favorite sessions on your mind for people to pay attention to that they should (murmurs)? >> I just want to address a few things that continue to come up in the chat sessions, especially breakout sessions after they play live and the speakers in chat with you, those go on demand, they are recorded, you will be able to access them. Also, if the screen is too small, there is the button to expand full screen, and different quality levels for the video that you can choose on your end. All the breakout sessions also have closed captioning, so please if you would like to read along, turn that on so you can, stay with the sessions. We have some great sessions, kicking off right at 10:00 a.m, getting started with Docker. We have a full track really in the how to enhance on that you should check out devs in action, hear what other people are doing and then of course our sponsors are delivering great content to you all day long. >> Tons of content. It's all available. They'll always be up always on at large scale. Thanks for watching. Now we got James Governor, the keynote. He's with Red Monk, the analyst firm and has been tracking open source for many generations. He's been doing amazing work. Watch his great keynote. I'm going to be interviewing him live right after. So stay with us and enjoy the rest of the day. We'll see you back shortly. (upbeat music) >> Hi, I'm James Governor, one of the co-founders of a company called RedMonk. We're an industry research firm focusing on developer led technology adoption. So that's I guess why Docker invited me to DockerCon 2020 to talk about some trends that we're seeing in the world of work and software development. So Monk Chips, that's who I am. I spent a lot of time on Twitter. It's a great research tool. It's a great way to find out what's going on with keep track of, as I say, there's people that we value so highly software developers, engineers and practitioners. So when I started talking to Docker about this event and it was pre Rhona, should we say, the idea of a crowd wasn't a scary thing, but today you see something like this, it makes you feel uncomfortable. This is not a place that I want to be. I'm pretty sure it's a place you don't want to be. And you know, to that end, I think it's interesting quote by Ellen Powell, she says, "Work from home is now just work" And we're going to see more and more of that. Organizations aren't feeling the same way they did about work before. Who all these people? Who is my cLancaern? So GitHub says has 50 million developers right on its network. Now, one of the things I think is most interesting, it's not that it has 50 million developers. Perhaps that's a proxy for number of developers worldwide. But quite frankly, a lot of those accounts, there's all kinds of people there. They're just Selena's. There are data engineers, there are data scientists, there are product managers, there were tech marketers. It's a big, big community and it goes way beyond just software developers itself. Frankly for me, I'd probably be saying there's more like 20 to 25 million developers worldwide, but GitHub knows a lot about the world of code. So what else do they know? One of the things they know is that world of code software and opensource, is becoming increasingly global. I get so excited about this stuff. The idea that there are these different software communities around the planet where we're seeing massive expansions in terms of things like open source. Great example is Nigeria. So Nigeria more than 200 million people, right? The energy there in terms of events, in terms of learning, in terms of teaching, in terms of the desire to code, the desire to launch businesses, desire to be part of a global software community is just so exciting. And you know, these, this sort of energy is not just in Nigeria, it's in other countries in Africa, it's happening in Egypt. It's happening around the world. This energy is something that's super interesting to me. We need to think about that. We've got global that we need to solve. And software is going to be a big part of that. At the moment, we can talk about other countries, but what about frankly the gender gap, the gender issue that, you know, from 1984 onwards, the number of women taking computer science degrees began to, not track but to create in comparison to what men were doing. The tech industry is way too male focused, there are men that are dominant, it's not welcoming, we haven't found ways to have those pathways and frankly to drive inclusion. And the women I know in tech, have to deal with the massively disproportionate amount of stress and things like online networks. But talking about online networks and talking about a better way of living, I was really excited by get up satellite recently, was a fantastic demo by Alison McMillan and she did a demo of a code spaces. So code spaces is Microsoft online ID, new platform that they've built. And online IDs, we're never quite sure, you know, plenty of people still out there just using the max. But, visual studio code has been a big success. And so this idea of moving to one online IDE, it's been around that for awhile. What they did was just make really tight integration. So you're in your GitHub repo and just be able to create a development environment with effectively one click, getting rid of all of the act shaving, making it super easy. And what I loved was it the demo, what Ali's like, yeah cause this is great. One of my kids are having a nap, I can just start (murmurs) and I don't have to sort out all the rest of it. And to me that was amazing. It was like productivity as inclusion. I'm here was a senior director at GitHub. They're doing this amazing work and then making this clear statement about being a parent. And I think that was fantastic. Because that's what, to me, importantly just working from home, which has been so challenging for so many of us, began to open up new possibilities, and frankly exciting possibilities. So Alley's also got a podcast parent-driven development, which I think is super important. Because this is about men and women rule in this together show parenting is a team sport, same as software development. And the idea that we should be thinking about, how to be more productive, is super important to me. So I want to talk a bit about developer culture and how it led to social media. Because you know, your social media, we're in this ad bomb stage now. It's TikTok, it's like exercise, people doing incredible back flips and stuff like that. Doing a bunch of dancing. We've had the world of sharing cat gifts, Facebook, we sort of see social media is I think a phenomenon in its own right. Whereas the me, I think it's interesting because it's its progenitors, where did it come from? So here's (murmurs) So 1971, one of the features in the emergency management information system, that he built, which it's topical, it was for medical tracking medical information as well, medical emergencies, included a bulletin board system. So that it could keep track of what people were doing on a team and make sure that they were collaborating effectively, boom! That was the start of something big, obviously. Another day I think is worth looking at 1983, Sorania Pullman, spanning tree protocol. So at DEC, they were very good at distributed systems. And the idea was that you can have a distributed system and so much of the internet working that we do today was based on radius work. And then it showed that basically, you could span out a huge network so that everyone could collaborate. That is incredibly exciting in terms of the trends, that I'm talking about. So then let's look at 1988, you've got IRC. IRC what developer has not used IRC, right. Well, I guess maybe some of the other ones might not have. But I don't know if we're post IRC yet, but (murmurs) at a finished university, really nailed it with IRC as a platform that people could communicate effectively with. And then we go into like 1991. So we've had IRC, we've had finished universities, doing a lot of really fantastic work about collaboration. And I don't think it was necessarily an accident that this is where the line is twofold, announced Linux. So Linux was a wonderfully packaged, idea in terms of we're going to take this Unix thing. And when I say package, what a package was the idea that we could collaborate on software. So, it may have just been the work of one person, but clearly what made it important, made it interesting, was finding a social networking pattern, for software development so that everybody could work on something at scale. That was really, I think, fundamental and foundational. Now I think it's important, We're going to talk about Linus, to talk about some things that are not good about software culture, not good about open source culture, not good about hacker culture. And that's where I'm going to talk about code of conduct. We have not been welcoming to new people. We got the acronyms, JFTI, We call people news, that's super unhelpful. We've got to find ways to be more welcoming and more self-sustaining in our communities, because otherwise communities will fail. And I'd like to thank everyone that has a code of conduct and has encouraged others to have codes of conduct. We need to have codes of conduct that are enforced to ensure that we have better diversity at our events. And that's what women, underrepresented minorities, all different kinds of people need to be well looked off to and be in safe and inclusive spaces. And that's the online events. But of course it's also for all of our activities offline. So Linus, as I say, I'm not the most charming of characters at all time, but he has done some amazing technology. So we got to like 2005 the creation of GIT. Not necessarily the distributed version control system that would win. But there was some interesting principles there, and they'd come out of the work that he had done in terms of trying to build and sustain the Linux code base. So it was very much based on experience. He had an itch that he needed to scratch and there was a community that was this building, this thing. So what was going to be the option, came up with Git foundational to another huge wave of social change, frankly get to logical awesome. April 20 April, 2008 GitHub, right? GiHub comes up, they've looked at Git, they've packaged it up, they found a way to make it consumable so the teams could use it and really begin to take advantage of the power of that distributed version control model. Now, ironically enough, of course they centralized the service in doing so. So we have a single point of failure on GitHub. But on the other hand, the notion of the poll request, the primitives that they established and made usable by people, that changed everything in terms of software development. I think another one that I'd really like to look at is Slack. So Slack is a huge success used by all different kinds of businesses. But it began specifically as a pivot from a company called Glitch. It was a game company and they still wanted, a tool internally that was better than IRC. So they built out something that later became Slack. So Slack 2014, is established as a company and basically it was this Slack fit software engineering. The focus on automation, the conversational aspects, the asynchronous aspects. It really pulled things together in a way that was interesting to software developers. And I think we've seen this pattern in the world, frankly, of the last few years. Software developers are influences. So Slack first used by the engineering teams, later used by everybody. And arguably you could say the same thing actually happened with Apple. Apple was mainstreamed by developers adopting that platform. Get to 2013, boom again, Solomon Hikes, Docker, right? So Docker was, I mean containers were not new, they were just super hard to use. People found it difficult technology, it was Easter Terek. It wasn't something that they could fully understand. Solomon did an incredible job of understanding how containers could fit into modern developer workflows. So if we think about immutable images, if we think about the ability to have everything required in the package where you are, it really tied into what people were trying to do with CICD, tied into microservices. And certainly the notion of sort of display usability Docker nailed that, and I guess from this conference, at least the rest is history. So I want to talk a little bit about, scratching the itch. And particularly what has become, I call it the developer authentic. So let's go into dark mode now. I've talked about developers laying out these foundations and frameworks that, the mainstream, frankly now my son, he's 14, he (murmurs) at me if I don't have dark mode on in an application. And it's this notion that developers, they have an aesthetic, it does get adopted I mean it's quite often jokey. One of the things we've seen in the really successful platforms like GitHub, Docker, NPM, let's look at GitHub. Let's look at over that Playfulness. I think was really interesting. And that changes the world of work, right? So we've got the world of work which can be buttoned up, which can be somewhat tight. I think both of those companies were really influential, in thinking that software development, which is a profession, it's also something that can and is fun. And I think about how can we make it more fun? How can we develop better applications together? Takes me to, if we think about Docker talking about build, share and run, for me the key word is share, because development has to be a team sport. It needs to be sharing. It needs to be kind and it needs to bring together people to do more effective work. Because that's what it's all about, doing effective work. If you think about zoom, it's a proxy for collaboration in terms of its value. So we've got all of these airlines and frankly, add up that their share that add up their total value. It's currently less than Zoom. So video conferencing has become so much of how we live now on a consumer basis. But certainly from a business to business perspective. I want to talk about how we live now. I want to think about like, what will come out all of this traumatic and it is incredibly traumatic time? I'd like to say I'm very privileged. I can work from home. So thank you to all the frontline workers that are out there that they're not in that position. But overall what I'm really thinking about, there's some things that will come out of this that will benefit us as a culture. Looking at cities like Paris, Milan, London, New York, putting a new cycling infrastructure, so that people can social distance and travel outside because they don't feel comfortable on public transport. I think sort of amazing widening pavements or we can't do that. All these cities have done it literally overnight. This sort of changes is exciting. And what does come off that like, oh there are some positive aspects of the current issues that we face. So I've got a conference or I've got a community that may and some of those, I've been working on. So Katie from HashiCorp and Carla from container solutions basically about, look, what will the world look like in developer relations? Can we have developer relations without the air miles? 'Cause developer advocates, they do too much travel ends up, you know, burning them out, develop relations. People don't like to say no. They may have bosses that say, you know, I was like, Oh that corporates went great. Now we're going to roll it out worldwide to 47 cities. That's stuff is terrible. It's terrible from a personal perspective, it's really terrible from an environmental perspective. We need to travel less. Virtual events are crushing it. Microsoft just at build, right? Normally that'd be just over 10,000 people, they had 245,000 plus registrations. 40,000 of them in the last day, right? Red Hat summit, 80,000 people, IBM think 90,000 people, GitHub Crushed it as well. Like this is a more inclusive way people can dip in. They can be from all around the world. I mentioned Nigeria and how fantastic it is. Very often Nigerian developers and advocates find it hard to get visas. Why should they be shut out of events? Events are going to start to become remote first because frankly, look at it, if you're turning in those kinds of numbers, and Microsoft was already doing great online events, but they absolutely nailed it. They're going to have to ask some serious questions about why everybody should get back on a plane again. So if you're going to do remote, you've got to be intentional about it. It's one thing I've learned some exciting about GitLab. GitLab's culture is amazing. Everything is documented, everything is public, everything is transparent. Think that really clear and if you look at their principles, everything, you can't have implicit collaboration models. Everything needs to be documented and explicit, so that anyone can work anywhere and they can still be part of the team. Remote first is where we're at now, Coinbase, Shopify, even Barkley says the not going to go back to having everybody in offices in the way they used to. This is a fundamental shift. And I think it's got significant implications for all industries, but definitely for software development. Here's the thing, the last 20 years were about distributed computing, microservices, the cloud, we've got pretty good at that. The next 20 years will be about distributed work. We can't have everybody living in San Francisco and London and Berlin. The talent is distributed, the talent is elsewhere. So how are we going to build tools? Who is going to scratch that itch to build tools to make them more effective? Who's building the next generation of apps, you are, thanks.

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, It's the Cube. Covering AWS reInvent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel along with its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, we're live here in Las Vegas in the Cube for live coverage of Amazon reInvent 2019. I'm John Furrier here instructing the singer from the noise. We have an amazing guest here, the founder of Aviatrix, I mean the CEO of Aviatrix, Steve Mullaney. Welcome to the Cube, thanks for comin' out. >> Thank you, good to see you. >> So first of all, I want to get into your experience, because I think it's notable having you on, because you've been in the industry for years, you're CEO of a multicloud software, a new kind of company. And this is what Andy Jassy was talking about on his Keynote today, that there's new kinds of companies, there's the born in the cloud, then there's enterprises re-borning in the cloud, my word. It's actually pivoting or re-platforming, re-imagining, whatever you want to call it. This is the new game, and if you're not on that side of the street you could be out of business. >> Steve: Yeah, no we're definitely seeing that and I think that's the thing that really got me excited about a year ago, was watching enterprises make that transition and say you know what, the center of gravity has gone from architectures inside the on-prem data center, is now moved to in the cloud. That shift has happened, people talked about it five years ago, but they didn't mean it. Now when you talk to enterprises, they are actually moving into the cloud, not just talking about it. And they're saying that is the center of gravity. And what's interesting to me was, I think even just the tone of Andy Jassy today and what he was talking about was once you define what your architecture is, you push it everywhere. So cloud 1.0 and 2.0 was really more about taking my architecture that was on-prem and pushing it into the cloud. So let me take virtual clients, a virtual router, basically my hardware router, package it up, put it on the cloud. That's not cloud native, it's cloud naive as we talk, right? So the change that's happened is now everybody realizes that the center of gravity is in the cloud, and you start seeing things like outposts. You see things like wavelength, you see things like TGW network Manager and things getting pushed out. The architecture of the cloud, now actually pushing out and extending out into on premises. >> John: Well, I want to give you a prop for a couple things. One is, for the folks watching, and read my post about my interview with Andy Jassy, I said two things in there that I borrowed or stole from Steve. One was cloud native without the T is cloud naive. And T for trust, T for IT, that was clever. And we're going to get into that-- >> Well I stole that from our sales guy Harold Hilderbrand, so you know what? >> John: Harold shout out to you. The second thing that I heard used when we were talking, we were talking about transitions vs. transformations. I think that is so on point because I think that encapsulates what Jassy's saying and what the industry is feeling right now. Transitions are for incremental improvements, transformations are for flipping the script. >> Steve: Right, right. >> This is really happening. Can you share what you mean by transitions vs. transformations? >> Yeah, so when you're in a computing model, there's been really three computing models. There's mainframe, which was 50's or 60's, to 80's or 90's, there's a 20-30 year period where IBM, DAC and so forth. That was the way you did enterprise computing. Then this PC client server thing came along, which was viewed as a toy at the beginning. For print sharing and work groups and people said are you kidding me? PCs, Servers are just PCs with two power supplies. I'm not running my mission critical infrastructure on PCs. But in the 90's with the internet, IP protocol, it's shifted. That became that transformation. So incumbents never win transformations. DEC, IBM and what happens is they're never in the conversation, because it's a transformation. Incumbents always win transitions, so for the last 20 to 30 years, Cisco, great, fantastic company. Very respected company. John Jamers will talk about transitions and talk about he would pat himself on the back, and how they would win market transitions. You're supposed to win a market transition as an incumbent, don't pat yourself on the back. The customers will force you to win the transition because they don't want another leader when you're in that same model. We are now entering that third transformation, this a model of computing change. This is from the top down business transformation Andy was talking about, which is true. You have companies redefining who they are, and they are leveraging cloud technologies to do that. This is not a cost thing, this is not a bottoms up technology thing that IT guys just say ah I want to learn something new. This is top down business transformation, existential threat to the survival of my company kind of stuff, and we need to move fast, and enterprises all move together. That's now happening and transformations, that confusion creates opportunities, because it moves so fast that the legacy vendors just don't have time. They have the innovators dilemma, they can't move to the new way quick enough. >> Yeah and one of the things I want to get your thoughts on and I want to get your reaction to is as we go to all the events in cloud, in this business, we see everything, the one tell sign, for me, is the security market. Security got unbuckled out of IT, in the board conversation. The jewels are on the table, the security, if you get hacked you're out of business. Talk about threats to the business, security is the leading indicator. What's going on in security? They're building their own staff, they're hiring developers in house. They are really changing the game on how they use technology. That's just in one area. You're talking about a complete reset, or reconsideration of everything that Jassy said. >> Everything, yeah, it's the business, right? Your applications are your business, right? And then all the infrastructure underneath that is there to service the applications and the data, that's why it's there. When you talk to different people, and you talk to customers like NBC and CBS, and content people, they're moving to the cloud. They're now having channels that are 100% hosted on AWS for the first time. Why are you doing that? I asked this of CBS. Because we need to move faster. Guess what, they're competing with Netflix and Amazon. They can't do it the old way, they're going to die. So they're moving all of their channels, hundreds of channels to be now cloud enabled. Because it allows them to deliver it in months as opposed to years. >> Your really interesting background, I'll share with the audience, you have a networking background, the old WellFleet became Bay Networks. Early employee at Cisco, then went to early employee at Palo Alto Networks security company. CEO Of Nicira, which is a big pioneer in software-defined networking. Which, at the time, evolved into the crown jewels of AVMWare. >> Yep, in a sense. >> You would say I would agree with that. And now you're on Aviatrix where it's got a multi-cloud abstraction, so you're kind of riding this new wave. So the question I have for you is, I coined the term being reborn in the cloud. Not born in the cloud. People who are born in the cloud, clean sheet of paper, they can scale up. But an enterprise has got to transform. Has to become reborn with cloud architecture. >> Steve: Yes, yes. >> This is a fundamental, almost look in the mirror moment as an enterprise executive, saying are we being reborn? >> Yes. >> How do companies do that? >> So we have a number of companies, enterprise companies, that are 30 year old, 40 year old enterprise software companies that, honestly, were left for dead. Where people thought, they weren't SaaS. They missed out on the whole Benny Hoff SaaS movement and they were on-prem. They had all the features, all the functionality, but they didn't have the delivery model of SaaS. They were hurting, they were going to die. People left them for dead. Now what they are doing is they've reborn themselves, in the cloud. They are pushing themselves in the cloud. Informatic, Variant, Epsolon, Eluysian, Teradata. We've got tens of these companies, that are, have reinvented themselves and now they're actually doing really, really, well. Because they had the functionality that they've always had, but now they have the delivery mechanism. There not SaaS actually, and the customers like that. Because I get my own three or four VPCs, it's my own network, it's not multi-tenant. It's hosted within AWS and now they're just migrating as fast as they can, all of their on-prem applications of customers into AWS and other clouds. >> John: All right, so I want to ask you about multi-cloud. Jassy didn't use the word multi-cloud, the critics are tweeting away on that. But, of course he's going to say multi-cloud, he's the cloud. He's the one cloud, he wants to be. >> Yeah. >> Multi-cloud is a reality. He did point out in my interview, and I think he might have mentioned on stage, that people are picking up primary and secondary. And then it's not 50/50 it's 70/30, 90/10. Whatever the ratio is then just pick one. Amazon gets picked a lot for the leader. What's your vision and how do you see the multi-cloud playing out? As people start becoming more cloud operations based. >> My view, and people, we are in the first pitch in the first inning of this cloud and people say AWS is a 40 billion dollar run rate, how can that be? Because the money has always been and always will be with large enterprise. They are now just starting to move into the cloud. There's trillions of dollars of spend that's coming into public cloud. So, first off, it's very beginning, early days. Second thing is AWS has done incredibly well with the developers and the born in the cloud people. Enterprises, not so much. And, you know what? Microsoft kind of understands enterprises. So I think we're going to be set up for a little bit of battle here, and it's, by no means, over. So I think AWS recognizes that and every single enterprise that I have talked to says I may not be a third, a third, a third across all three of the big clouds. Maybe I'll have one primary, and I think Andy Jassy says that, which I kind of agree with. I think people will have a primary, but I don't think everyone's primary is going to be AWS. I think there's going to be a lot of Azure primaries. And even some Google primaries, probably more, and I think it will be a two horse race for that. But then they're going to use the other clouds because, I was just talking to a customer today. The signature recognition software runs better in Azure. They're an AWS customer, they're moving to Azure for this. Why, because that app runs better in Azure for some reason. I think people, particularly enterprises, will make that decision. >> All right, so I want to get your take on two things, first of all I agree with you. >> I think that's what will happen. >> I would agree with that, so let's just take this scenario. Amazon wins on capabilities, they're constantly adding new stuff everyday. So, if you're a builder, it's the ultimate tool shed for technology. Azure isn't there yet, they're trying to catch up as fast as they can, they're pedaling as fast as they can. But there's a build out level and then there's a consumption level. So there's having all that capability, but also the customer's consumption has to be addressed. Solutions packaging, ease of use. So delivery mechanisms for infrastructure in the cloud. The consumption, how I buy and use, is now a consideration. Or consumer experience or whatever you want to call it. What's your take on those two dynamics? >> I think you'll see, from AWS, I don't know this, but it has to be, because this is what enterprises want. The phrase 'Go Build' is great for an early adopter. You go tell that to an enterprise, here's the power tools, go build your house. They go, I'm going to cut my hand off. I don't want to go build anything, I want to consume. So I think you're going to see them changing their tune a little bit, because the markets evolved, and I think it's caught them a little bit by surprise as well. I think Microsoft, because they know the enterprise, they won't say 'Go Build'. They're going to say 'Come Consume'. And I think that's going to resonate with enterprises. Because, at the end of the day, they don't really want to do that. Now, either way, I think it's going to be a battle. That's where Aviatrix comes into play. We help enterprises, no matter what cloud you're on, across multiple clouds or one, actually consume services. So we abstract away all the details of those native services. >> Well, I would say, if you got to transform, you have to do some building, but it would have to be the easy kit. >> Steve: Yeah, I want the easy button, I mean. >> John: Paint by numbers. >> Yeah. >> John: Self-installing house. So I got your take on that. So you got a lot of buzz in the analyst community around a phrase I've heard you say. >> Steve: Which one is that? >> There's no more food left in the data center. >> Oh, okay, yeah. >> John: And the animals are leaving the data center. >> And that's right. >> John: Food being the supplier. >> The on-prem data center. >> John: The on-prem are money and the animals being the vendors. So if there's no food in the data center, what's happening? What does that mean? >> Steve: They're goin' through, the center of gravity has moved into the cloud, that's where the food is. So you're going to see a lot of cloud naive legacy vendors put cloud on things, right? It's the same crap they had, they're just going to put cloud on it because, like I said, what do animals do when they run out of food? They go find where the food is, right? If people get mad when I say that because data centers are not going away. I know that data centers aren't goin' away, but they're going to get quarantined like mainframes got quarantined. It's going to be an expense area, it's not going to be an investment. And what do you do with an expense? You quarantine it, you cap it, you hopefully keep it flat, or your reduce it. But, sure, the data centers are going to be around for a long time but all their market caps are based on big growth. And, where people are confused is, for the last five years, everybody said we are moving to cloud. But they were talking. So if you look over the last five years, all the people selling the on-prem have done very well. So, clearly, this whole cloud thing was a hoax, right? Because, for five years, you said it was coming and it hasn't, so therefore I'm good. The problem is you're good right up until you're not good and that just happened. >> And that's happening now in your opinion? >> That's happening now and your seeing it in peoples results, publicly. And they're washing it over. They're saying it's a temporary problem. I compensated the field wrong. Bullshit, I know what's going on and, you know what? There's going to be no hiding from that. >> Yeah, and the expansion's going to be in the cloud where the developers are building apps that drive top line. >> Steve: That's where all the investment's going. >> Okay so, there's a couple of major areas developing with the cloud dynamic. The cloud scale and now data tsunami and data scale. Diversity of data and all those things are happening. You can see that in the announcements. Large scale data, the data layer network, data ops, data as code, infrastructure as code, large scale, all that's great. But networking still becomes the fundamental problem. Jassy talked about it on stage. Hops to the network, they got this wavelength thing for 5G. That's really cool. All the kind of important things that are going on, is going on at the network. Same concepts being applied to a new architecture. >> Yeah. >> Your thoughts? >> Exactly right. One of our customers, I forget who it was, said a phrase to me that I love. Again I steal everything John. >> John: I steal from you. >> Yeah, he said the network comes first. I go that is perfect, I'm going to use that. In fact, actually it's on our website. The network comes first. Because when you're building up that infrastructure, in all of computing. Compute network and storage, what's the most important? Network by far. Why, because if the network isn't architected correctly, you're screwed for life. So you've got to get that right. So that's what everybody is doing right now. Is they look and they say strategically, we're going to go build a city. First thing I got to go and do is get the basic infrastructure, and the network comes first. That is the core of my basic infrastructure. If you get that wrong, life is bad for a long long time. That's what's going on right now. >> Okay, so you've had a great career, you got the CEO of Aviatrix going on. You're also looking at startups, you advise, been on boards. What's your view of the startup landscape if you're advising startups to go at this market, this trillion dollar enterprise market, the money's being thrown in the air and the money's in the middle of the table. How do they attack that money, how do they attack the marketplace? >> First thing, number one, you got to be cloud native. You have got to understand the basic native constructs of Azure, Google, AWS. You cannot be just this thing that plops on top of it, you got to be able to programmatically, program that infrastructure and leverage it. Because all of the hundreds of billions of dollars being spent, you want to use that, right. You don't want to have to go recreate that. So that, to me, is number one. And then number two, I think there's a lot of opportunity in the cloud. Everybody thinks AWS will do anything and everything you need in networking. That is a bunch of crap. There is so many limitations that they have for enterprises. Like hundreds of limitations. The beautiful thing with networking is you push one area, and ten other problems happen. So we've got 20 years of things to do to make networking better. So that's what we're going to do. But also at the edges, right? I would say where the interesting thing happens, is the interface between on-prem and cloud. So BGP, IOS, Cisco IOS, all the things that, because it's kind of like the virtual, the physical interface. It's the cloud to on-prem interface. There's still going to be an interface. >> John: You still need plumbing. >> Then there's still going to be an interface. That interface is where a lot of the complexity and friction comes. So whether it's IoT, edge computing type things, or things that we do of bringing that cloud in a seamless, kind of simple, automated way. Bringing on the on-prem into the cloud world in a very seamless way. >> John: So, I'm got to ask you a final question. You came out of retirement. You had the good life on boards, golfing, clipping coupons, going to the beach every day. Now you're the CEO of a company going grinding it out again. A lot of older ageism coming back into the biz. A lot of people who have been in the systems business. >> Steve: Oh yeah. >> A lot of people coming back into the game. Why did you come back, what was the main driver for you to come back out of retirement? >> 'Cause this is a thousand foot wave and it's ten times bigger than what I saw in client server. It's the biggest opportunity of value creation and innovation that I have ever seen and ever will see in my life. What's also fun is every single one of the customers that we are dealing with are all old guys like me. They're all 40s, 50s, 60s, it's the IT guys from 30 years ago that everyone left for dead. Everyone thought, oh it's the developer-led infrastructure, the developers are going to do everything, uh uh. This is IT, IT is coming back and saying thank you very much developer, we got it from here. This is serious business now. This isn't fun and games anymore. We're taking over. >> But it's serious IT, it's reborn IT, it's not the old IT. >> Not the old IT, they want to do it. It's the old guys. But they're enlightened guys and gals and they want to do it in the cloud way, with the simplicity and the automation. But yet I want to bring the functionality, visibility, and control that I had on-prem. I don't want to do it the old way. I want to do it the new way. Guy today I was just talking to a customer who said, I don't want to build my Dad's network. But he's 50 years old, he's my age, you know. And so, but I think that's the key, they're enlightened networking people, yet they have the 30 years of history of understanding the subtleties of BGP and networking. >> This was our chance to hear you in the Cube, we had such a great time, our team's awesome. It's our seventh year doing reInvent, eight years total of this conference. What's your take of Jassy's Keynote this year? Is this an inflection point? Is this one of those moments where you're going to look back and say this was a time that Amazon made a change, or gassed it extra hard? >> I think, my take is, look every year he says amazing things and every year is another step function. But I think this year will go down as the year that people will look back a couple of years from now and say that was the point, that it got serious, like really serious in terms of big enterprises coming in and I think it's going to send a message to the other public clouds, and a message to all the other enterprises that say hey, maybe I'm falling behind. When you see Goldman Sachs and you see banks are laggers to the cloud. They're not early adopters, they're laggers. You see that and you go well, wait a minute, maybe I'm missing out. I think it's going to actually accelerate because he's seeing it, you know. So I think it will go down as a big inflection point. >> John: Steve Mullaney, President and CEO of Aviatrix, who's going to, you'll be on Thursday to go over some of the stuff you guys do as a company. Appreciate the commentary, and great experience riding the wave. How high was that wave? >> A thousand foot. >> Thousand foot wave. We've been riding this wave for years. What a great time it is to be here at reInvent. Keep coverage, I'm John Furrier. We will be back with more coverage after this short break. Here in the Cube Intel Studios sponsored by Intel. Thanks to Intel for your generous contributions to making the Cube and supporting our mission. We really appreciate it. Thanks for watching, we've got the more coverage after this short break. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)