(upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone; I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE NEWS and host of theCUBE, and welcome to our SiliconANGLE NEWS MWC NEWS UPDATE in Barcelona where MWC is the premier event for the cloud telecommunication industry, and in the news here is Red Hat, Red Hat announcing a collaboration with NVIDIA, Samsung and Arm on Efficient Open Networks. Red Hat announced updates across various fields including advanced 5G telecommunications cloud, industrial edge, artificial intelligence, and radio access networks, RAN, and Efficiency. Red Hat's enterprise Kubernetes platform, OpenShift, has added support for NVIDIA's converged accelerators and aerial SDK facilitating RAND deployments on industry standard service across hybrid and multicloud platforms. This composable infrastructure enables telecom firms to support heavier compute demands for edge computing, AI, private 5G, and more, and just also helps network operators adopt open architectures, allowing them to choose non-proprietary components from multiple suppliers. In addition to the NVIDIA collaboration, Red Hat is working with Samsung to offer a new vRAN solution for service providers to better manage their open RAN networks. They're also working with UK chip designer, Arm, to create new networking solutions for energy efficient Red Hat Open Source Kubernetes-based Efficient Power Level Exporter project, or Kepler, has been donated to the open Cloud Native Compute Foundation, allowing enterprise to better understand their cloud native workloads and power consumptions. Kepler can also help in the development of sustainable software by creating less power hungry applications. Again, Red Hat continuing to provide OpenSource, OpenRAN, and contributing an open source project to the CNCF, continuing to create innovation for developers, and, of course, Red Hat knows what, a lot about operating systems and the telco could be the next frontier. That's SiliconANGLE NEWS. I'm John Furrier; thanks for watching. (monotone music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe it's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021 Virtual. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. And it's theCUBE Virtual and Uli Homann who's here, Corporate Vice President of Cloud & AI at Microsoft. Thanks for comin' on. I love this session. Obviously, Microsoft one of the big clouds. Awesome. You guys partnering with IBM here, at IBM Think. I remember during the client-server days in the '80s, late '80s to early '90s the open systems interconnect was a big part of opening up the computer industry. That was networking, intra-networking and really created more LANs and more connections for PCs et cetera, and the world just went on from there. Similar now with hybrid cloud, you're seeing that same kind of vibe, right? You're seeing that same kind of alignment with distributed computing architectures for businesses. Where now you have, it's not just networking and plumbing, and connecting, you know, LANs and PCs, and printers, it's connecting everything. It's kind of almost a whole 'nother world, but similar movie, if you will. So this is really going to be good for people who understand that market. IBM does, you guys do. Talk about the alignment between IBM and Microsoft in this new hybrid cloud space. It's really kind of now standardized, but yet it's just now coming. >> Yeah, so again, fantastic question. So the way I think about this is first of all, Microsoft and IBM are philosophically very much aligned. We're both investing in key open source initiatives like the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF, something that we both believe in. We're both partnering with the Red Hat organization so Red Hat forms a common bond, if you so want to, between Microsoft and IBM. And again, part of this is how can we establish a system of capabilities that every client has access to, and then build on top of that stack. And again, IBM does this very well with their Cloud Paks which are coming out now with data and AI, and others. So open source, open standards are key elements and then you mentioned something critical which I believe is not under, misunderstood, but certainly not appreciated enough is this is about connectivity between businesses and so part of the power of the IBM perspective together with Microsoft is bringing together key business applications for health care, for retail, for manufacturing and really make them work together so that our clients that are-- critical scenarios get the support they need from both IBM as well as Microsoft on top of this common foundation of the CNCF and other open standards. >> You know, it's interesting, I love that point. I'm going to double-down and amplify that and continue to bring it up. Connecting between businesses is one thread but now, people, because you have an edge that's also industrial, business, but also people. People are also participating in open source, people have wearables, people are connected so they can, and also they're connecting with collaboration. So this kind of brings a whole 'nother architecture which I want to get into the solutions with you on on how you see that playing out. But first, I know, you know, you're a veteran with Microsoft for many, many years, for decades. Microsoft's core competency has been ecosystems, developer ecosystems, customer ecosystems. Today, that the services motion is build around ecosystems. You guys have that playbook, IBM's well versed in it, as well. How does that impact your partnerships, your solutions, and how you deal with down this open marketplace? >> Well, let's start with the obvious. Obviously, Microsoft and IBM will work together in common ecosystems. Again, I'm going to reference the CNCF again as the foundation for a lot of these initiatives. But then we are also working together in the Red Hat ecosystem because Red Hat has built an ecosystem that Microsoft and IBM are players in that ecosystem. However, we also are looking higher level 'cause a lot of times when people think ecosystems, it's fairly low-level technology. But Microsoft and IBM are talking about partnerships that are focused on industry scenarios. Again, retail for example, or health care and others where we're building on top of these lower-level ecosystem capabilities and then bringing together the solution scenarios where the strength of IBM capabilities is coupled with Microsoft capabilities to drive this very famous one plus one equals three. And then the other piece that I think we both agree on is the open source ecosystem for software development and software development collaboration. And GitHub is a common anchor that we both believe can feed the world's economy with respect to the software solutions that are needed to really, yeah, bring the capabilities forward, help improve the world's economy and so forth by effectively bringing together brilliant minds across the ecosystem and again, just Microsoft and IBM bringing some people, but the rest of the world obviously participating in that, as well. So thinking again, open source, open standards, and then industry-specific collaboration and capabilities being a key part. You mentioned people. We certainly believe that people play a key role, software developers and the GitHub notion being a key one. But there are others where again, Microsoft with Microsoft 365 has a lot of capabilities in connecting people within the organization and across organizations. And while we're using Zoom, here, a lot of people are utilizing Teams 'cause Teams is on the one side of collaboration platform, but on the other side is also an application host. And so bringing together people collaboration supported and powered by applications from IBM, from Microsoft and others, is going to be, I think, a huge differentiation in terms of how people interact with software in the future. >> Yeah, and I think that whole joint development is a big part of this new people equation where it's not just partnering in market, it's also at the tech, and you've got open source, and it's a just phenomenal innovation formula, there. So let's ask what solutions, here. I want to get into some of the top solutions you're doing that Microsoft that maybe with IBM. But your title as the Corporate Vice President Cloud & AI, c'mon, could you get a better department? I mean, more relevant than that? I mean, it's exciting. You know, cloud scale is driving tons of innovation, AI is eating software or changing the software paradigm. We're going to see that playing out. I've done dozens of interviews just in this past month on how AI's a more, certainly with machine learning, and having a control plane with data, changing the game. So tell us, what are the hot solutions for hybrid cloud and why is this a different ballgame than say, public cloud? >> Well, so first of all, let's talk a little bit about the AI capabilities and data because I think they're two categories. You are seeing an evolution of AI capabilities that are coming out. And again, I just read IBM's announcement about integrating the Cloud Pak with IBM Satellite. I think that's a key capability that IBM is putting out there and we are partnering with IBM in two directions, there. IBM has done a fantastic job to build AI capabilities that are relevant for industries, health care being a very good example, again, retail being another one. And I believe Microsoft and IBM will work on both partnership on the technology side as well as the AI usage in specific verticals. Microsoft is doing similar things. Within our Dynamics product line, we're using AI for business applications, for planning, scheduling, optimizations, risk assessments, those kind of scenarios. And of course, we're using those in the Microsoft 365 environment, as well. I always joke that despite my 30 years at Microsoft, I still don't know how to really use PowerPoint and I can't do a PowerPoint slide for the life of me, but with a new designer, I can actually get help from the system to make beautiful PowerPoint happen. So bringing AI into real life usage I think is the key part. The hybrid scenario is critical here, as well, especially when you start to think about real life scenarios like safety, worker safety in a critical environment, freshness of product. We're seeing retailers deploying cameras and AI inside the retail stores to effectively make sure that the shelves are stocked, that the quality of the vegetables, for example, continues to be high and monitored. And previously, people would do this on an occasional basis running around in the store. Now the store is monitored 24/7 and people get notified when things need fixing. Another really cool scenario set is quality. We are working with a Finnish steel producer that effectively is looking at the stainless steel as it's being produced and they have cameras on this steel that look at specific marks. And if these marks show up then they know that the stainless steel will be bad. And I don't know if you have looked at a manufacturing process, but the earlier they can get failures detected, the better it is because they can most likely, or more often than not, return the product back into the beginning of the funnel and start over. And that's what they're using. So you can see molten steel, logically speaking, with a camera and AI. And previously, humans did this which is obviously A, less reliable and B, dangerous because this is very, very hot, this is very glowing steel. And so increasing safety while at the same time improving the quality is something that we see in hybrid scenarios. Again, autonomous driving, another great scenario where perception AI is going to be utilized. So there's a bunch of capabilities out there that really are hybrid in nature and will help us move forward with key scenarios, safety, quality, and autonomous behaviors like driving and so forth. >> Uli, great, great insight. Great product vision. Great alignment with IBM's hybrid cloud space what all customers are lookin' for, now. And certainly multicloud around the horizon. So great to have you on. Great agility, and congratulations for your continued success. You've got a great area, cloud and AI, and we'll be keeping in touch. I'd love to do a deep dive, sometime. Thanks for coming on. >> John, thank you very much for the invitation and great questions, great interview. Love it, appreciate it. >> Thank you very much. Okay, theCUBE coverage here, at IBM Think 2021 Virtual. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (soft electronic music) ♪ Dah-De-Da ♪ ♪ Dah-De ♪

(relaxing electronic music) >> Narrator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE! With digital coverage of Next Level Network Experience event. Brought to you by Infoblox. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage, we're here in our Palo Alto studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here with Infoblox for their Next Level Networking virtual event with theCUBE. Glenn Sullivan is our guest, Principal Product Manager with Infoblox, formerly with SnapRoute, theCUBE alumni. Great to have you back on, Glenn. Great to see you, and thanks for jumping on remotely. We're doing the remote thing, the remote CUBE, good to see you. >> Yeah, it's great! I wish I could be in the studio, you guys have a great studio up there in Palo Alto, so I wish I could have joined you, but that's not possible right now. (chuckles) >> The governor's on, is off, we're get there, but when it does come back we'll certainly do a lot more remotes, and want to go to a "hybrid world." Hybrid, it sounds like the media business is turning into cloud computing, you got public videos, in person, you got hybrid, and virtual. The cloud native world is certainly spawning everywhere now with COVID, and you guys are talk about Next Level Networking, but with the word Experience. I want to get your thoughts on that because, you know, it's been six months, you've been on theCUBE, a lot's happened. Next Level Networking Experience, describe it. >> Yeah, it's really about processing things as close to where they need to be processed as possible, right? So, you don't really want to put everything in the cloud, you don't really want to have everything happen on-prem, you want to do the right data processing where it's needed, right? Have a little bit on-prem and have a lot in the cloud, or vice versa, it's really about elastic scale, right? That's what I think about with cloud native technologies is being able to run whatever you need to run service-wise as close to the delivery mechanism of either the user, or you know, as close to the app in the cloud as you need to. That's really what it means by, you know, having an elastic scale, and we try to do that every day. >> And notice the word Experience is in there, you know, that's been super important because you build and provision, manage these services from the customer standpoint. I mean, I can't drive in, there's no, there's clothes, or I got to go in, I now can do remotely. This is the key about having abstraction layer innovation, certainly DNS, DHCP, IP address management, never going away, you've got to connect stuff to the internet, I mean the network is there. >> Exactly. >> You've got to be a bit more innovative, what's your thoughts on the impact of the network now that cloud native and open source specifically are driving more action. >> Well, there's a lot going under the hood, right? And you can't just, you know, manage things the way you used to be able to, where you take and you buy a box, you know, it's that cattle vs pets thing that we talk about in cloud native, right? Where you treat this appliance very specifically and very specially, and you upgrade it and you're afraid to touch it. Now that you can't, you know, get the things, you have to do everything lights out. So, what we've learned via applying technologies in the cloud, you know, you didn't go into AWS' data center, or Google's data center, or Microsoft Azure's data center and manage these things, so what we've learned about how to manage infrastructure across the board in networking and compute and storage now is even more important, because everybody's lights out all the time now. >> And scale and speed is critical. I mean, Google's pioneered the concept of SRE, Site Reliability Engineer. What your teasing out, Glenn, is the same kind of concept for the network, you've got to have the security, you've got to have the scale. This is a huge point, can you react to that? >> Yeah, it's about spinning up instances where you need them, you know, when you need them, right? If networking equals a physical black box appliance that you specifically nurture and manage instead of just networking services, right, because DHCP is a networking service, DNS is a networking service, IPAM is a networking service, so you should be able to spin those up wherever you need to and manage those without having to worry about it all being tied to, you know, specific things that you have to manage in a very nurtured way. >> I want to get your thoughts, the term borderless enterprise is being kicked around, you guys use that term. I've heard, you know, the borderless networK, makes sense I guess, but what does the borderless enterprise mean to you. >> Well, it's really just an extension if you think about it from the software defined perimeter concept before. You know, people call it different terms now, but it's just saying that borderless means that I don't have people sitting in a office anymore, and if I do have people sitting in an office, they have the similar experience to people that are connecting remotely, no matter where they are. So, because there is no boundary to your network, right, because the edges of your network don't match edges of your walls in your branches, that's pretty borderless to me, right? And you have to kind of think about, you know, it's not just about adding more firewalls, It's not just about adding more network perimeter security, it's really about how do I apply foundational security across the board. I've been at Infoblocks now for a little over six months, and I can tell you, it's great to see thinking about these foundational services, right? These infrastructure services like DHCP, DNS, and IPAM being really at the foundational layer of the security that you apply to your network. Right, it's the first couple of things that happen, right? The first thing you do is you get an IP address, that's DHCP, you can figure out all kinds of stuff about a device that way. Then you start looking at services with DNS, right? And then it's like, "Okay, well now I've got a lot more information about what the user's doing, where they're going, and how to secure it," right?" So, these sound like they're really your plain vanilla protocol suites, until you really start applying borderless security across the board with them. >> Yeah, a lot of machinations, and also you now have massive amounts of connection points, 'cause with IoT, not only have more in terms of volume of things connecting, but they're being turned on and off very quickly. They have to get connected, so you have that going on. >> Yep, and then you got to make sure that they do what they're supposed to do, right? If they're supposed to phone home to a specific place that they only do that, and that they haven't been hijacked, and somebody isn't mimicking them with malware. There's all kinds of security threats when you start thinking about all the possibilities that IoT brings into account. >> Yeah, some light bulb that you screw in, wifi enabled, has a multi-threaded capability, and be, who knows what's on there, right? (laughs) I mean this is what the reality is, no one knows what connects, a little hygiene comes a long way. I want to just get back into what you said. You've been there for a few months, came from SnapRoute, which was doing some real fine work, that's where we did our feature interview on you and what you were doing there, that technology. With borderless enterprise, what is the role that cloud native and open source play? Because this is your wheelhouse, I want to get your thoughts because when you had that to borderless, things kind of happen. >> There's two things that I like to think about. One, it's scaling things down as skinny as possible, or as big as necessary, right, elastic scale, right? We talk about cloud native technologies, we always talk about elastic scale. Well, what does that mean? Well, that means that am I securing an entire data center? Am I securing a branch office? Am I securing a gas station? Or am I securing a person working from home? You know, this is what we mean by elastic scale. It doesn't mean that I'm, you know, purpose building the spoke specific security profiles for those individual use cases, it means that I have a system that I can scale up and scale down no matter where those folks are, right? That's really what you have to do when you think about cloud native technologies and the borderless network, is you have to be able to run things as close to the user as possible, or as close to the app as possible, or somewhere in between. The second thing that I think is super key is abstraction, right? You can't manage everyone working from home, or you can't manage as many instances as you need with everyone's individual laptop, right? This doesn't scale, right? Abstraction is key to cloud native technologies because it means that I don't pay attention to anything that's below me, right? If I'm an SRE, I don't necessarily care about what type of servers that application set's running on. If I'm a network engineer, I don't really care about the fiber patch panels that connect my network devices together, right? Abstracting away the underlying infrastructure is key for cloud native technologies. So, as we add more and more devices, more and more endpoints, more and more users to manage, we have to make sure that we abstract away the complexity of all the connections that need to be built between those users and whatever, you know, abstraction orchestration layer that we utilize. >> You almost peeled back the onion from the early days of DNS and go to the core, "Hey, I want to connect to this domain." And a packet moves from here to there across an IP address, "Oh, let's add some abstraction on it." This has been the innovation form for the internet for years, right? So, how do you describe the Next Level? Because you mentioned, again, the word Experience is in there, so Next Level means, okay, networks need to be programmable. You do have the Next Level opensource dynamic that you pointed out beautifully, what's that Next Level Experience? How do you see the preferred future evolving? Because if you take this further, if you believe cloud native provides some scale, as you pointed out, it should simplify, these abstraction layers should reduce complexity, or abstract away the complexities and provide more simplicity. >> Absolutely! I mean, I always come at it from an Ops perspective because that's just my background, right? But I was running networks for a long time before I started building, you know, network operating systems, right? I can tell you that what I need is visibility. You know, I need to be able to see what's going on at any given moment. I need to be able to know that the things that I've deployed are up and running. I need to know that the information that I need to troubleshoot the issues that arise is at my fingertips, right? Because I always think about it like the 3:00 a.m. call, right? The network engineer, or sysadmin, or the DNS admin, or it doesn't matter who they are, at 3:00 a.m. they got to wake up because they've just been paged, and something's wrong. And how do they get to what's broken? So, that's one way to think about it. There's also the deployment way to think about it, right? Like how can I deploy as many new users, as many new branches, as many new locations, whatever the process is. You know, you hear zero touch provisioning, you know, all these other, these features, and they come as part of a cloud native mentality, right? They mean that I don't have to do, you know, a whole lot of pre-thinking and pre-staging, and pre-configuration, and pre-thought before I deploy stuff, right? It means I need something, I deploy whatever is required from a service level, I kickstart it, it bootstraps itself, and it joins, right? I take away the headache of having to think about where something is or when it is, and that's a lot of the synergy that we had between what we were doing at SnapRoute and when we came to Infoblox, right? I can tell you, we were pleasantly surprised by the platform that was built, and we were like, "Okay, well this is going to be great! We can add services to this and we don't have to worry about having to go an reinvent the wheel." Because when you choose technologies like Docker containerization, you choose technologies like Kubernetes orchestration and Kubernetes abstraction, you are a lot closer to where you need to be. I mean one of the thing that, you know, isn't super well-known out there is that CoreDNS is one of the major projects that Infoblox helps maintain with inside CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, right? CoreDNS ships at the core of every Kubernetes version from now on, you know, as of a few versions ago. So if you think about it, Infoblox has got a lot of cloud native technologies built into everything that we do, and we're one of the key maintainers of one of the key DNS features of something that's at the heart of Kubernetes, and you know, I don't have to tell you how popular Kubernetes is. >> Yeah, we've chatted about that. It sounds like it's the kernel of all the action, DNS, the CoreDNS for Kubernetes. (laughs) >> Exactly, exactly! It's definitely at the core there. >> Glenn, I want to get your thoughts. First of all, I love chatting with you, you mentioned you were from an operating background, but also you can bring a lot of dev into it too, so this is ultimately, to me, the inflection point of where DevOps goes mainstream, because you used to do Ops for a fruit company, Apple? >> Yes, yes, very popular! >> Big one. >> A very popular fruit company called Apple, and we know how hardcore they are, especially they lean heavy on, you know, lock it down, make sure everything's secure, I mean it's well known in the Silicon Valley and around the world, certainly in tech circles, the security mindset. >> Absolutely. >> Large scale operations. Now, you bring also the DevOps aspect of it with cloud native. As that world has to become secure, and networks, it's an Ops game, let's face it. No matter how much DevOps you sprinkle into the equation, at the end of the day, it's Ops. Ops, operations of networks, high availability, large scale. But now you have a little bit of development goin' on on top. The programmable internet past the tip of the network layer, what's your take on that? Because you still need security, you want to have the capability to do some advanced automation. These have been hot new trends, and networking people are now hearing this not for the first time, but it's the new thing where it's like, "Okay, I can have my Ops, but I got to do some Dev now." So make sense of this, where are we in this whole programmable networking aspect? >> Yeah, there's sort of two schools of thought, and it's interesting what's happening, right? You've got kind of, on the extreme left side you've got, "I just treat the network like it's dumb plumbing and I run all of my software overlays on top of it, and I basically treat the network like it doesn't exist." And you know, it's kind of a situation that's been perpetuated by the silos that are out there, where you have the network engineers, and the server compute engineers, or SREs, and then you know, it's like, "Well, these folks never have to talk to each other because we just treat the network like it doesn't exist, and we run overlays on top." And some of the vendors in the server overlay security space have been really proud of that interaction. And I can tell you that that's one way of doing it, but it's not the optimal way, right? Like, when I was a network engineer I could tell you, you're trying to build credibility, right? So, if I was talkin' to a network engineer now, and I'd say like, "How do you get your credibility built with your server folks?" It's kind of like learning a different language, right? If you try, if you try to speak the other language, the person actually is appreciative of that and will help you. So, I always found, you know, find thing things you can automate, run that code base, figure out the API structures, build some pseudo-code together to make it happen, and figure out what you're doing over, and over, and over again and automate it. Automate away, right? And that's some of the nice things that are the same here, right, everything we could ever want to do in any GUI is all REST API'd underneath the hood, right? So it's like, we don't have to pitch to people that, "Oh, you can automate this code if you want to, you can run these APIs if you want to." They know it, and they use it, and people are happy with it. And I think if you're a network engineer, you've got to spend the extra effort to try to, you know. You don't have to do anything complicated! >> It's not rocket science. You know, it's not like you got to go right C, I'm sorry? >> It's not rocket science. >> No, start with Ansible, you'll learn some Python, you'll learn some Django on top of that, and then keep running, right? Keep automating on top of that. >> All right, great stuff, Glenn. I know you've got a a tight deadline, appreciate you comin' on for this virtual fireside chat as part of the Infoblox Next Level Networking virtual event. What specifically can companies do to get what they need from a technology standpoint to secure the borderless enterprise? How do you see it playing out, now that you're on Infoblox side from SnapRoute, with what Infoblox has, which is a holistic portfolio approach, a holistic view, what are you guys offering customers, and how do they secure their borderless enterprise? Really start with DDI, right? I know DDI is something that is not specific to Infoblox, but if you look at what we're doing with DNS, DHCP and IPAM, it's really the foundational layer to start securing the rest of your network. We don't necessarily make it so you don't need the rest of your security stacks that are running on top, but we do optimize 'em and we make it so you can right-size 'em, and we really think that if you focus on getting that layer solid, and you really focus on the DNS security, you can apply a lot of lightweight, high impact features as early on in the packet forwarding process as possible. Right, if you think about, I'm a network engineer at heart, so I always think about the path of a packet from the start to the end, and DDI happens really early in the process, so if you give that right, the rest of your security infrastructure built on top of that is just going to work that much better. >> You're the Principal Product Manager at Infoblox, formerly with SnapRoute, how do you fit into this? What product are you managing? Can you give a little bit of background, kind of what you're working on? >> So, I'm an emerging technologies PM, so basically anything kind of new and cool that we look to add to our platform, that'll come out of myself and my group. >> And Kubernetes obviously is one of 'em. >> Well, Kubernetes is already there, so we're already doing stuff with Kubernetes inside Infoblox, like, our whole platform. If you buy BloxOne DDI and BloxOne Threat Defense today, it's all deployed using Kubernetes and Docker containers, and orchestration layers, and everything today. So, everything that we're building on my team, is all building on top of that well sold platform that's already been developed. >> There's definitely demand out there, you're startin' to see the big companies like VMware, very operational focused companies start acquiring cloud native and open source, kind of a new kind of section to them. Obviously it's a tell sign, the markers are all there in terms of the trends. What are people missing? What's real, what's vape or what's reality when you look at the landscape, and what does Infoblox bring to the table? >> So, I think what's important to know is that when you're lookin' at open source technologies, a lot of them have been hardened over many years, and there's new stuff coming out all the time, and there's definitely new uses for them. But what's kind of important is what you put on top, right? Everyone's got open source under the hood, or they've got technologies they've OEM'd under the hood, right? But the experience that you present to customers is really key, right? Because you can take any kind of open source project and wrap a, you know, very thing layer on top of it, and you can either, you know, trump up the open source software, and say is the open source software we use underneath, or you can downplay it and say hey, this open source software, you know, we don't really talk about what's under the hood and it just all works magically. We find that transparency is really helpful. You know, you let people know what's under the hood, and you contribute to it, and you show that you're involved in this community, and you use that as a leverage to kind of push forward. So, if you look at, you know, what we're doin' with some of the different projects within, you know, BloxOne DDI uses Kea, and we're part of IC that's part of the maintainers of that, like we're openly in this space, right? And I already mentioned CoreDNS before, right? So, you can either take open source, and use it, and pretend that you don't, or you can take open source and contribute to it and be a community member, and be an advocate, and usually when you're on that side of the equation, you end up in a better place with your customers, building, you know, building confidence in your customer base. >> That's great stuff, Glenn Sullivan, thanks for comin' on, I really appreciate it. I'll give you the last word. In a nutshell, if I have cloud native and open source, how do I secure my borderless enterprise? >> Think about it as close to where the source is as possible and scale things elastically so that you can do as much processing of the user experience as possible so that you aren't trying to, you know, funnel everything to a single place and apply some magical policies in a single centralized location, to where you have to process a lot of data across the board. If you think about it from a hybrid approach where you've got a little bit on-prem and you've got a little bit in the cloud, or in some combination that's right for your organization, the hybrid approach that really trumps the local survivability, and really, you know, keeps focusing on securing things as close to the user possible, or as close to the source as possible, then you're going to be in good shape. >> Glenn, great stuff. As always, a masterclass in networking. Appreciate the insights, thanks for comin' on this Infoblox Next Level Networking virtual event for theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Stay with us, and thanks for watching. (relaxing electronic music)

>> from San Matteo. It's the Cube covering scaler. Innovation Day Brought to You by scaler. >> Welcome to this Special Cube Innovation Day. Here in San Mateo, California Scale is headquarters for a coast of the Cube. We're here with two great guests. Claudia Carpenter co founder Andy McAlister, Who's Dev evangelist? Uh, great to have you guys here a chat before we came on. Thanks for having us >> Great to be >> so scaler. It's all about the logs. The answer is in the logs. That's the title of the segment Them. I'll see the log files with a lot of exhaust in their data value extracting that, but it's got more operational impact. What's what's the Why is the answer in the locks? >> Because that's where the real information is. It's one thing to be able to tell that something is going around when your systems, but what is going wrong as engineers, what we tend to do is the old print. If it's like here's everything I can think of in this moment and leave it as breadcrumbs for myself to find later, then I need to go and look at those bread crumbs >> in a challenge. Of course, with this is that logs themselves are proliferating. There's lots of data. There's lots of services inside this logs, so you've gotta be able to find your answers as fast as possible. You can't afford Teo. Wait for something else. T lead you to them. You need to deep dive >> the way you guys have this saying it's the place to start. What does that mean? Why? Why is that the new approach? >> What We're trying to differentiate because there's this trend right now in the Dev Ops world towards metrics because they're much smaller to store it, pre digesting what's going on in your systems. And then you just play a lot of graphs and things like that. We agree with that. You do need to be able to see what's going on. You need to be able to set alerts. Metrics are good, but they only get you so far. A lot of people will go through. Look at metrics, dig through and then they stop, switch over and go to their logs. We like to start with the logs, build our metrics from them, and then we go direct to >> the source. I think a minute explain what you mean by metrics, because that has multiple meanings. Because the current way around metrics and you kind of talked about a new approach. Could you just take a minute? Explain what you meant by metrics and how logs are setting up the measures. The difference there. >> So to me, metrics is just counting things right? So at log files of these long textual representations of what's going on in my system and it's impossible to visually parce that I mean literally 10,000 lines. So you count. I've got five of this one in six of this one, and it's much smaller to store. I've got five of this one and six of this one, but that's also not very much information, so that's really the difference. >> But, you know, we have customers who use their metrics to help them indicate something might be wrong inside of here. The problem is, is that modern environments where we have instant gratification, needs and people you know, we'd be wait five seconds. Basically, it's a law sale online here. You need to know what's went wrong, not just where we went wrong or that something went wrong. So building for the logs to the metrics allows you to also have a perfect time back to that specific entrance ancient entrance that lets you be you out. What was wrong? >> He mention Claudia Death ops. And this is really kind of think of fun market because Dev Ops is now going mainstream and see the enterprise now started to adopt. It's still Jean Kim from Enterprise. Debs estimates only 3% of enterprise really there yet. So the action's on the cloud Native Public Cloud side where it's, you know, full blown, you know, cloud native more services. They're coming to see Cooper Netease things of that nature out there. And these services are being stood up and torn down while the rhythmically like. So with who the hell stores that data? That's the logs. The nature of log files and data is changing radically with Dev ops. I'm certainly this is going to be more complications but developers and figuring out what's what. How do you see that? What's your reaction to that trend? >> Yeah, so Dev Ops is a very exciting thing. At were Google. It was sort of like the new thing is the developers had to do their own operations, and that's where this comes from. Unfortunately, a lot of enterprise will just rename their ops people devil apps, and that's not the same thing. It's literally developers doing operations, Um, and right now that it's never been so exciting as as it is right now in the text axe, because you could get so much that's open source. Pre built glue this all these things together. But since you haven't written the code yourself, you've no way deal which going on. So it's kind of like Braille. You've got to go back and look and feel your way through it to figure out what's going on. And that's where logs come into play. >> The logs essentially, you know, lift up, get people eyesight into visibility of things that they care about. Absolute. So what's this red thing? Somebody read what is written? Rennes. >> One of the approaches. You'll hear things like golden signals. You'll hear youse, and you'll hear a red Corvette stands for rates, a rose and duration. And ready is a concept that says, How do you actually work with some of these complex technologies working with you're talking about and actually determined where your problems are. So if you think about it, rate is kind of how much traffic's going through a signal for this as a metric, it's accumulative number. So to back to Claudia's point, it's just number here. But if you're trapping goes up, you want to know what's going wrong here is self explanatory. Something broke, fix it, and then duration is how long things took. You talked about communities, Communities works hands in hands with this concept of micro services. Micro services are everywhere, and there were Khun B places that have thousands of little services, all serving the bigger need here. If one of them goes slow, you need to know what went slow as fast as possible. So rate duration and air is actually combined to give you the overall health of your system. While at the same point logs elect, you figure out what was causing >> the problem we'll take. I'm intrigued by what Claudia said. They're on this. You know, Braille concept is essentially a lot of people are flying blind date with what's going on, but you mentioned micro services. That's one area that's coming. Got state full data. Stateless data. They were given a P I economy. Certainly a state becomes important for these applications. You know, the developers don't may or may not know what's happening, so they need to have some intelligence. Also, security we've seen in the cloud. When you have a lot of people standing up instances whether it's on Amazon or other clouds, they don't actually have security on some of their things. So they got it. Figure out the trails of what the data looks like they need the log files to have understanding of. Did something happened? What happened? Why? What is the bottom line here? Claudia? What what people do to kind of get visibility So they're not flying blind as developers and organizations. >> Well, you gotta log everything you can within reason. They always have to take into account privacy and security. But logs much as you can and pull logs from every one of the components in your systems. The micro services that day was just talking about are so cool. And as engineers, we can't resist them way. Love, complexity >> and cool things. >> Things especially cool things and new things. >> New >> green things. Sorry, easily distracted. But there they are, harder to support. They can be a really difficult environment. So again it's back to bread crumbs, leaving that that trail and being able to go back and reconstruct what happened. >> Okay, what's the coolest thing about scaler since we thought about cool and relevant? You guys certainly in the relevant side thing. Check the box there. What's cool? What's cool about scaler telling us? >> That's great. Answer What isn't. But you know, honestly, when I came to work here, I no idea I was familiar with Log Management was really with long search and so forth. And the first time I actually saw the product, my jaw dropped. Okay, I now go to a trade show, for instance, and I'm showing people to use this. And I hit my return button to get my results. And you showed band with can be really bad and it stalls for 1/10 of a second, and I complain about it now. No, there is nothing quite as thrilling as getting your results as fast as you can think about them. Almost your thought processes the slow part of determining what's going on, and that is mind boggling. >> So the speed is the killer. >> The speed is like what killed me. But honestly, something that Chloe's been heavily involved in It takes you two minutes to get started. I mean, there's no long learning curve there. You get the product and you are there. You're ready to go >> close about ease of use and simplicity, because developers are fickle, but they're also loyal. Do you have a good product? They loved to get in that love the freebie. You know, the 30 day trial, They'll they'll kick the tires on anything. But the product isn't working. You hear about it when it does work. This mass traffic to people you know pound at the doorstep of the product. What's the compelling value proposition for the developer out there? Because they >> don't want to >> waste time. That's like the killer death to any product for development. Waste their time. They don't want to deal with it. >> So we live in the TL D our world right now. Frankly, if I have to read something, I usually move on on DH. That's the approach we take with scaler as well. Yes, we have some documentation, but I always feel like I have failed with the user interface design. If I require you to go read the documentation. So I try to take that into account with everything that we that we put out there making it really easy and fast it just jumping in, try stuff. >> How do you get to solve the complex complexity problem through attraction software? What's the secret sauce for the simplicity of this system? >> For me, it's a complete lack of patients. It's just like I wouldn't put up with that. I'm not gonna ask you to. Frankly, I view this sounds a little bit trite, but I've you Software's a relationship, and I view whoever is looking at it as a peer of mine, and I would be embarrassed if they couldn't figure it out if it wasn't obvious. But it is. We do have this sort of slope here of people who really know what's going on and people wanna optimize. This is your 80 20 split on people that don't know what just want to come in. I want both of them to be happy, so we need to blend those >> to talk about the value proposition of what you guys have because we've been covering you know log file mentioned Lock Management's Splunk events. We've gone, too. There's been no solution that I think may be going on 10 years old, that were once cutting edge. But the world changes so fast with Amazon Web services with Google Cloud with azure. Then get the international clouds out there as well. It's it's here. I mean, the scale is there, you got compute. You got the edge of the network right around the corner in the data problem's not going away. Log files going be needed. You have all this data exhausted, these value. >> If anything, there's always going to be more data that's out there. You're going to have more sources of that data coming in here. You're talking a little bit about you have the hybrid cloud. Where's part on prom? Part in the cloud. You could have multi clouds where across his boundaries. You're gonna have the wonderful coyote world where you have no idea when or where you're going to get an upload from too. This too and EJ environment. And you've got to worry about those and at the same time time, the logging, everything, the breadcrumbs. You have ephemeral events. They're not always there, and those are the ones that kill you. So the model is really simple and applaud Claudia for conning concept wise. But you're playing with concept of kiss, right? We'll hear its keep it simple and sophisticated at the same time. So I can teach you to do this demo in two minutes flat, and from there you can teach yourself everything else that this product's capable of doing it. That simple >> talk about who? The person out there that you want to use his product and why should they give scale or look what's in it for them. >> So for me, I think the perfect is to have Dev ops use it. It's developers. We really have designed a product less for ops and more for engineers. So one of the things that is different about scaler is you have somebody come in and set it up, parsed logs that ingestion of logs, which is different than splunk and sumo on DH. Then it's ready to use right out of the box. So for me, I think that our sweet spot, his engineers, because a lot of our formulations of things you do are more technical you're thinking about about you know what air the patterns here. I'm not going to say it's calculus, because then that wouldn't be simple. But it's along. Those >> engineers might be can also cloud Native is a really key party. People who were cloud native. We're actually looking at four in the cloud or cloud migration, >> right way C a lot. For instance, in the Croup. In any space from the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, we're seeing a tremendous instrument interest in Prometheus. We're seeing a lot of interest in usto with service mesh. The nice thing is that they are already all admitting logs themselves. And so, from our viewpoint, we bring them in. We put them together. So now you can look at each piece as it relates to the very other piece >> Claudia share with the folks who, watching this just some anecdotal use cases of what you guys have used internally, whether customers that give him a feel for how awesome scaler is and what's the what could they expect? >> Well, put me on the spot here. Um, >> I'll kick off. So we have a customer in Germany there need commerce shop, They have 1,000 engineers for here. When we started the product we replace because it was on a charge basis that was basically per user. They came back and they said, Oh my God, you don't understand our queries Air taking 15 minutes to get back By the time the quarry comes back, the engineer's forgotten why he asked the question for this. And so they loaded up. They rapidly discovered something unique. It's that they can discover things because anyone can use it. We now have 500 engineers that touch the log files every day, I will attest. Having written code myself, nobody reads log files for fun. But Scaler makes it easy to discover new things and new connections. And they actually look at what house >> discoveries of real value, proper >> discovery is a massive value proposition. Uh, where you figure out things that you don't know about back to that events thing that Claudia started about was, you can only measure the events that you can already considered. You can't measure things that didn't happen >> close. It quickly thought what the culture on David could chime in. What's the culture like here scaler? >> It is a unique culture and I know everyone probably says that about their startup, but we keep work life balance as a very important component. We're such nerds and unabashedly nerds. Wait, what we do. It's a joyful atmosphere to work in. Our founder, Steve Newman, is there in his flat, his flannel shirt, his socks cruising around. Um, and we are very much into our quality barcode. We have a lot of the principles of Google sort of combined into a start up. I mean to say it's a very honest environment, >> Sol. Heart problems make it a good environment. >> Yeah, and I value provide real values, are critical >> for me and have fun at the same point in time. The people here work hard, but they share what they're working on. They share information. They're not afraid to answer the what are you working on? Question. But we always managed to have fun. We are a pretty tight group that way. >> Well, thanks for sharing that insight. We have a lot of fun here in Innovation Day with the Q p. I'm John Furia. Thanks for watching

>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its Ecosystem Partners. >> Well everyone, welcome back to the live coverage of theCUBE here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon, Kubernetes Con 2018, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs, breaking down day two, wrapping up our coverage of KubeCon and all the success that we've seen with Kubernetes, I thought it would be really appropriate to bring on the cofounder of KubeCon originally, Joseph Jacks, known as JJ in the industry, a good friend of theCUBE and part of the early formation of what is now Cloud Native. We were all riffing on that at the time. welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thank you for having me John. >> So, for the story, for the folks out there, you know Cloud Native was really seen by the devops community, and infrastructure code was no secret to the insiders in the timeframes from 2010 through 2015, 16 timeframe, but really it was an open stack summit. A lot of people were kind of like, hey, you know, Google's got Kubernetes, they're going to open it up and this could be a real game changer, container, Docker was flying off the shelves. So we just kind of saw, right, and you were there and we were talking so there was a group of us. You were one of them. And you founded KubeCon, and bolted into the, at that time, the satellite Linux Foundation events, and then you pass it off as a good community citizen to the CNCF, so I wanted to just make sure that people knew that. What a great success. What's your impression? I mean, are you blown away? >> I am definitely blown away. I mean I think the size and scale of the European audience is remarkable. We had something like slightly less than half this in Austin last year. So to see more than that come here in Europe I think shows the global kind of growth curve as well as like, I think, Dan and someone else was asking sort of raise your hand if you've been to Kubecon Austin and very few actually, so there's a lot of new people showing up in Europe. I think it just shows the demand-- >> And Dan's been traveling around. I've seen him in China, some events I've been to. >> Joseph: All over. >> He's really working hard so props to him. We gave him some great props earlier. But he also told us Shanghai is coming online. >> Joseph: Yeah. >> So you got Shanghai, you to Barcelona next year for the European show, and of course Seattle. This is a community celebrating right now because there's a lot of high fives going on right now because there's a lot of cool, we've got some sort of core standard, defacto standard, now let's go to work. What are you working on now? You got a stealth startup? Share a little bit about it. I know you don't want to give the details out, but where is it kind of above the stack? Where you going to be playing? >> Sure, so we're not talking too much in terms of specifics and we're pretty stealthy, but I can tell you what I'm personally very excited about in terms of where Kubernetes is going and kind of where this ecosystem is starting to mature for practitioners, for enterprises. So one of the things that I think Kubernetes is starting to bring to bear is this idea of commoditizing distributed systems for everyday developers, for everyday enterprises. And I think that that is sort of the first time in sort of maybe, maybe the history of software development, software engineering and building applications, we're standardizing on a set of primitives, a set of building blocks for distributed system style programming. You know we had in previous eras things like Erlang and fault tolerant programming and frameworks, but those were sort of like pocketed into different programming communities and different types of stacks. I think Kubernetes is the one sort of horizontal technology that the industry's adopting and it's giving us these amazing properties, so I think some of the things that we're focusing on or excited about involve sort of the programming layer on top of Kubernetes in simplifying the experience of kind of bringing all stateful and enterprise workloads and different types of application paradigms natively into Kubernetes without requiring a developer to really understand and learn the Kubernetes primitives themselves. >> That's next level infrastructure as code. Yeah so as Kubernetes becomes more successful, as Kubernetes succeeds at a larger and larger scale, people simply shouldn't have to know or understand the internals. There's a lot of people, I think Kelsey and a few other people, started to talk about Kubernetes as the Linux kernel of distributed computing or distributed systems, and I think that's a really great way of looking at it. You know, do programmers make file system calls directly when they're building their applications? Do they script directly against the kernel for maybe some very high performance things. But generally speaking when you're writing a service or you're writing a microservice or some business logic, you're writing at a higher level of abstraction and a language that's doing some IO and maybe some reading and writing files, but you're using higher level abstractions. So I think by the same token, the focus today with Kubernetes is people are learning this API. I think over time people are going to be programming against that API at a higher level. And what are you doing here, the show? Obviously you're (mumbles) so you're doing some (mumbles) intelligence. Conversations you've been in, can you share your opinion of what's going on here? Your thoughts on the content program, the architecture, the decisions they've made. >> I think we've just, so lots of questions in there. What am I doing here? I just get so energized and I'm so, I just get reinvigorated kind of being here and talking to people and it's just super cool to see a lot of old faces, people who've been here for a while, and you know, one of the things that excites me, and this is just like proof that the event's gotten so huge. I walk around and I see a lot of familiar faces, but more than 80, 90% of people I've never seen before, and I'm like wow this has like gotten really super huge mainstream. Talking with some customers, getting a good sense of kind of what's going on. I think we've seen two really huge kind of trends come out of the event. One is this idea of multicloud sort of as a focus area, and you've talked with Bassam at Upbound and the sort of multicloud control plane, kind of need and demand out there in the community and the user base. I think what Bassam's doing is extremely exciting. The other, so multicloud is a really big paradigm that most companies are sort of prioritizing. Kubernetes is available now on all the cloud providers, but how do we actually adopt it in a way that is agnostic to any cloud provider service. That's one really big trend. The second big thing that I think we're starting to see, just kind of across a lot of talks is taking the Kubernetes API and extending it and wrapping it around stateful applications and stateful workloads, and being able to sort of program that API. And so we saw the announcement from Red Hat on the operator framework. We've seen projects like Kube Builder and other things that are really about sort of building native custom Kubernetes APIs for your applications. So extensibility, using the Kubernetes API as a building block, and then multicloud. I think those are really two huge trends happening here. >> What is your view on, I'm actually going to put you on test here. So Red Hat made a bet on Kubernetes years ago when it was not obvious to a lot of the other big wales. >> Joseph: From the very beginning really. >> Yeah from the very beginning. And that paid off huge for Red Hat as an example. So the question is, what bets should people be making if you had to lay down some thought leadership on this here, 'cause you obviously are in the middle of it and been part of the beginning. There's some bets to be made. What are the bets that the IBMs and the HPs and the Cisco's and the big players have to make and what are the bets the startups have to make? >> Well yeah, there's two angles to that. I mean, I think the investment startups are making, are different set of investments and motivated differently than the multinational, huge, you know, technology companies that have billions of dollars. I think in the startup category, startups just should really embrace Kubernetes for speeding the way they build reliable and scalable applications. I think really from the very beginning Kubernetes is becoming kind of compelling and reasonable even at a very small scale, like for two or three node environment. It's becoming very easy to run and install and manage. Of course it gives you a lot of really great properties in terms of actually running, building your systems, adopting microservices, and scaling out your application. And that's what's sort of like a direct end user use case, startups, kind of building their business, building their stack on Kubernetes. We see companies building products on top of Kubernetes. You see a lot of them here on the expo floor. That's a different type of vendor startup ecosystem. I think there's lots of opportunities there. For the big multinationals, I think one really interesting thing that hasn't really quite been done yet, is sort of treating Kubernetes as a first-class citizen as opposed to a way to commercialize and enter a new market. I think one of the default ways large technology companies tend to look at something hypergrowth like Kubernetes and TensorFlow and other projects is wrapping around it and commercializing in some way, and I think a deeper more strategic path for large companies could be to really embed Kubernetes in the core kind of crown jewel IP assets that they have. So I'll give you an example, like, for let's just take SAP, I'll just pick on SAP randomly, for no reason. This is one of the largest enterprise software companies in the world. I would encourage the co-CEOs of SAP, for example. >> John: There's only one CEO now. >> Is there one CEO now? Okay. >> John: Snabe left. It's now (drowned out by talking). >> Oh, okay, gotcha. I haven't been keeping up on the SAP... But let's just say, you know, a CEO boardroom level discussion of replatforming the entire enterprise application stack on something like Kubernetes could deliver a ton of really core meaningful benefits to their business. And I don't think like deep super strategic investments like that at that level are being made quite yet. I think at a certain point in time in the future they'll probably start to be made that way. But that's how I would like look at smart investments on the bigger scale. >> We're not seeing scale yet with Kubernetes, just the toe is in the water. >> I think we're starting to see scale, John. I think we are. >> John: What's the scale number in clusters? >> I'll give you the best example, which came up today, and actually really surprised me which I think was a super compelling example. The largest retailer in China, so essentially the Amazon of China, JD.com, is running in production for years now at 20,000 compute nodes with Kubernetes, and their largest cluster is a 5,000 node cluster. And so this is pushing the boundary of the sort of production-- >> And I think that may be the biggest one I've heard. >> Yeah, that's certainly, I mean for a disclosed user that's pretty huge. We're starting to see people actually talk publicly about this which is remarkable. And there are huge deployments out there. >> We saw Tyler Jewell come on from WSO2. He's got a new thing called Ballerina. New programming language, have you seen that? >> Joseph: I have, I have. >> Thoughts on that? What's your thoughts on that? >> You know, I think that, so I won't make any particular specific comments on Ballerina, I'm not extremely informed on it. I did play with a little bit, I don't want to give any of my opinions, but what I'd say, and I think Tyler actually mentioned this, one of the things that I believe is going to be a big deal in the coming years, is so, trying to think of Kubernetes as an implementation detail, as the kernel, do you interact directly with that? Do you learn that interface directly? Are you sort of kind of optimizing your application to be sort of natively aware of those abstractions? I think the answer to all of those questions is no, and Kubernetes is sort of delegated as a compiler target, and so frankly like directionally speaking, I think what Ballerina's sort of design is aspiring towards is the right one. Compile time abstraction for building distributed systems is probably the next logical progression. I like to think of, and I think Brendan Burns has started to talk about this over the last year or two. Everyone's writing assembly code 'cause we're swimming yaml and configuration based designs and systems. You know, sort of pseudodeclarative, but more imperative in static configurations. When in reality we shouldn't be writing these assembly artifacts. We should be delegating all of this complexity to a compiler in the same way that you know, we went from assembly to C to higher level languages. So I think over time that starts to make a lot of sense, and we're going to see a lot of innovation here probably. >> What's your take on the community formation? Obviously, it's growing, so, any observations, any insight for the folks watching what's happening in the community, patterns, trends you'd see, like, don't like. >> I think we could do a better job of reducing politics amongst the really sort of senior community leaders, particularly who have incentives behind their sort of agendas and sort of opinions, since they work for various, you know, large and small companies. >> Yeah, who horse in this race. >> Sure, and there's, whether they're perverse incentives or not, I think net the project has such a high quality genuine, like humble, focused group of people leading it that there isn't much pollution and negativity there. But I think there could be a higher standard in some cases. Since the project is so huge and there are so many very fast moving areas of evolution, there tends to be sort of a fast curve toward many cooks being in the kitchen, you know, when new things materialize and I think that could be better handled. But positive side, I think like the project is becoming incredibly diverse. I just get super excited to see Aparna from Google leading the project at Google, both on the hosted Saas offering and the Kubernetes project. People like Liz and others. And I just think it's an awesome, welcoming, super diverse community. And people should really highlight that more. 'Cause I think it's a unique asset of the project. >> Well you're involved in some deep history. I think we're going to be looking this as moment where there was once a KubeCon that was not part of the CNCF, and you know, you did the right thing, did a good thing. You could have kept it to yourself and made some good cash. >> It's definitely gotten really big, and it's way beyond me now at this point. >> Those guys did a good job with CNCF. >> They're doing phenomenal. I think vast majority of the credit, at this scale, goes to Chris Anasik and Dan Conn, and the events team at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, and obviously Kelsey and Liz and Michelle Noorali and many others. But blood, sweat, and tears. It's no small feat pulling off an event like this. You know, corralling the CFP process, coordinating speakers, setting the themes, it's a really huge job. >> And now they got to deal with all the community, licenses, Lauren your thoughts? >> Well they're consistent across Apache v2 I believe is what Dan said, so all the projects under the CNCF are consistently licensed. So I think that's great. I think they actually have it together there. You know, I do share your concerns about the politics that are going on a little bit back and forth, the high level, I tend to look back at history a little bit, and for those of us that remember JBoss and the JBoss fork, we're a little bit nervous, right? So I think that it's important to take a look at that and make sure that that doesn't happen. Also, you know, open stack and the stuff that we've talked about before with distros coming out or too many distros going to be hitting the street, and how do we keep that more narrow focused, so this can go across-- >> Yeah, I started this, I like to list rank and iterate things, and I started with this sheet of all the vendors, you know, all the Kubernetes vendors, and then Linux Foundation, or CNCF took it over, and they've got a phenomenal sort of conformance testing and sort of compliance versioning sheet, which lists all the vendors and certification status and updates and so on and I think there's 50 or 60 companies. On one hand I think that's great, because it's more innovation, lots of service providers and offerings, but there is a concern that there might be some fragmentation, but again, this is a really big area of focus, and I think it's being addressed. Yeah, I think the right ones will end up winning, right? >> Joseph: Right, for sure. >> and that's what's going to be key. >> Joseph: Healthy competition. >> Yes. >> All right final question. Let's go around the horn. We'll start with you JJ, wrapping up KubeCon 2018, your thoughts, summary, what's happened here? What will we talk about next year about what happened this week in Denmark? >> I think this week in Denmark has been a huge turning point for the growth in Europe and sort of proof that Kubernetes is on like this unstoppable inflection, growth curve. We usually see a smaller audience here in Europe, relative to the domestic event before it. And we're just seeing the numbers get bigger and bigger. I think looking back we're also going to see just the quality of end users and the end user community and more production success stories starting to become front and center, which I think is really awesome. There's lots of vendors here. But I do believe we have a huge representation of end users and companies actually sharing what they're doing pragmatically and really changing their businesses from Financial Times to Cern and physics projects, and you know, JD and other huge companies. I think that's just really awesome. That's a unique thing of the Kubernetes project. There's some hugely transformative companies doing awesome things out there. >> Lauren your thoughts, summary of the week in Denmark? >> I think it's been awesome. There's so much innovation happening here and I don't want to overuse that word 'cause I think it's kind of BS at some point, but really these companies are doing new things, and they're taking this to new levels. I think that hearing about the excitement of the folks that are coming here to actually learn about Kubernetes is phenomenal, and they're going to bring that back into their companies, and you're going to see a lot more actually coming to Europe next year. I also true multicloud would be phenomenal. I would love that if you could actually glue those platforms together, per se. That's really what I'm looking for. But also security. I think security, there needs to be a security seg. We talked to customers earlier. That's something they want to see. I think that that needs to be something that's brought to the table. >> That's awesome. My view is very simple. You know I think they've done a good job in CNCF and Linux Foundation, the team, building the ecosystem, keeping the governance and the technical and the content piece separate. I think they did a good job of showing the future state that we'd like to get to, which is true multicloud, workload portability, those things still out of reach in my opinion, but they did a great job of keeping the tight core. And to me, when I hear words like defacto standard I think of major inflection points where industries have moved big time. You think of internetworking, you think of the web, you think of these moments where that small little tweak created massive new brands and created a disruptor enabler that just created, changed the game. We saw Cisco coming out of that movement of IP with routers you're seeing 3Com come out of that world. I think that this change, this new little nuance called Kubernetes is going to be absolutely a defacto standard. I think it's definitely an inflection point and you're going to see startups come up with new ideas really fast in a new way, in a new modern global architecture, new startups, and I think people are going to be blown away. I think you're going to see fast rising growth companies. I think it's going to be an investment opportunity whether it's token economics or a venture backer private equity play. You're going to see people come out of the wood work, real smart entrepreneur. I think this is what people have been waiting for in the industry so I mean, I'm just super excited. And so thanks for coming on. >> Thank you for everything you do for the community. I think you truly extract the signal from the noise. I'm really excited to see you keep coming to the show, so it's really awesome. >> I appreciate your support, and again we're co-developing content in the open. Lauren great to host with you this week. >> Thank you, it's been awesome. >> And you got a great new venture, high five there. High five to the founder of KubeCon. This is theCUBE, not to be confused with KubeCon. And we're theCUBE, C-U-B-E. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. It's a wrap of day two global coverage here exclusively for KubeCon 2018, CNCF and the Linux Foundation. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for coverage of KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF CloudNative Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier with my cohost, Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We're here with Kelsey Hightower, co-chair of the program as well as a staff engineer, developer, advocate, at Google Cloud Platform, a celebrity in the industry, dynamic, always great to have you on, welcome back. >> Awesome, good to be back. >> How are you feeling, tired? You've got the energy, day two? >> I'm good, I finished my keynote yesterday. My duties are done, so I get to enjoy the conference like most attendees. >> Great. Keynote was phenomenal, got good props. Great content format, very tight, moving things along. A little bit of a jab at some of the cloud providers. Someone said, "Oh, Kelsey took a jab at the cloud guys." What was that about, I mean, there was some good comments on Twitter, but, keeping it real. >> Honestly, so I work at a cloud provider, so I'm part of the cloud guys, right? So I'm at Google Cloud, and what I like to do is, and I was using Amazon's S3 in my presentation, and I was showing people basically like the dream of, in this case, serverless, here's how this stuff actually works together right now. We don't really need anything else from the cloud providers. Here's what you can do right now, so, I like to take a community perspective, When I'm on the stage, so I'm not here only to represent Google and sell for Google. I'm here to say, "Hey, here's what's possible," and my job is to kind of up-level the thinking. So that was kind of the goal of that particular presentation is like, here's all this stuff, let's not lock it all down to one particular provider, 'cause this is what we're here for, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, is about taking all of that stuff and standardizing it and making it accessible. >> And then obviously, people are talking about the outcome, that that's preferred right now in the future, which is a multi-cloud workload portability. Kubernetes is playing a very key role in obviously the dev ops, people who have been doing it for many many years, have eaten glass, spit nails, custom stuff, have put, reaped the benefits, but now they want to make it easy. They don't want to repeat that, so with Kubernetes nice formation, a lot of people saying here on theCUBE and in the hallways that a de facto standard, the word actually said multiple times here. Interesting. >> Yeah, so you got Kubernetes becoming the de facto standard for computes, but not events, not data, not the way you want to compute those events or data, so the job isn't complete. So I think Kubernetes will solve a large portion of compute needs, thumbs up, we're good to go. Linux has done this for the virtualization layer, Kubernetes is doing it for the containerization, but we don't quite have that on the serverless side. So it's important for us all to think about where the industry is going and so it's like, hey, where the industry is moving to, where we are now, but it's also important for us to get ahead of it, and also be a part of defining what the next de facto standard should be. >> And you mentioned community, which is important, because I want to just bring this up, there's a lot of startups in the membership of CNCF, and when you have that first piece done, you mentioned the other work to be done, that's an opportunity to differentiate. This is the commercialization opportunity to strike that balance. Your reaction to that, how do you see that playing out? Because it is an opportunity to create some value. >> Honestly I'm wearing a serverless.com T-shirt right now, right, that's the startup in the space. They're trying to make serverless easy to use for everyone, regardless of the platform. I think no matter what side of the field you stand on, we need these groups to be successful. They're independent companies, they're going for ambition, they're trying to fill the gaps in what we're all doing, so if they're successful, they just make a bigger market for everyone else, so this is why not only do we try to celebrate them, we try to give them this feedback, like, "Hey, here's what we're doing, "here's what the opportunities are," so I think we need them to be successful. If they all die out every time they start something, then we may not have people trying anymore. >> And I think there's actually a serverless seg in the CNCF, right? And I think that they're doing a lot of great work to kind of start to figure out what's going on. I mean, are you aware what those guys are up to? >> Exactly, so the keynote yesterday was largely about some of the work they're doing. So you mentioned the serverless seg, and CNCF. So some of the work that they're doing is called cloud events. But they wanted to standardize the way we take these events from the various providers, we're not going to make them all work the same way, but what we can do is capture those events in a standard way, and then help define a way to transport those between different providers if you will, and then how those responses come back. So at least we can start to standardize at least that part of the layer, and if Google offers you value, or Amazon offers you value, you own the data, and that data generates events, you can actually move it wherever you want, so that's the other piece, and I'm glad that they're getting in front of it. >> Well I think goal is, obviously, if I'm using AWS, and then I want to use Asher, and then I want to go to Google Cloud, or I want my development teams are using different components, and features, in all of them, right? You want to be able to have that portability across the cloud-- >> And we say together, so the key part of that demo was, if you're using one cloud provider for a certain service, in this case, I was using Google Translate to translate some data, but maybe your data lives in Amazon, the whole point was that, be notified that your data's in Amazon, so that it can be fired off an event into Google, function runs a translation, and writes the data back to Amazon. There are customers that actually do this today, right? There are different pieces of stacks that they want to be able to access, our goal is to make sure they can actually do that in a standard way, and then, show them how to do it. >> A lot of big buzz too also going on around Kubeflow, that Google co-chaired, or co-founded, and now part of the CNCF, Istio service meshes, again, this points to the dots that are connecting, which is okay, I got Kubernetes, we got containers, now Istio, what's your vision on that, how did that play out? An opportunity certainly to abstract the weights of complexity, what's your thoughts on Istio? >> So I think there's going to be certain things, things like Istio, there are parts of Istio that are very low level, that if done right, you may never see them. That's a good thing, so Istio comes in, and says, "Look, it's one thing to connect applications together, "which Kubernetes can help you do "with this built-in service discovery, "how does one app find the other app," but then it's another thing to lock down security and implement policy, this app can talk to this app under these conditions. Istio comes in, brings that to the playing field. Great, that's a great addition. Most people will probably wrap that in some higher-level platform, and you may never see it! Great! Then you mention Kubeflow, now this is a workflow, or at least an opinionated workflow, for doing machine-learning, or some analytics work. There's too many pieces! So if we start naming every single piece that you have to do, or we can say, "Look, we know there's a way that works, "we'll give it a name, we'll call it Kubeflow," and then what's going to happen there is the community's going to rally around actually more workflow, we have lots of great technology wrapped underneath all of that, but how should people use it? And I think that's what I'm actually happy to see now that we're in like year four or five of this thing, as people are actually talking about how to people leverage all of these things that fall below? >> As the IQ starts to increase with cloud-native, you're seeing enterprises, and there's levels of adoption, the early adopters, you know, the shiny new toy, are pushing the envelope, fast followers coming in, then you got the mainstream coming in, so mainstream, there's a lot of usage and consumption of containers, very comfortable with that, now they're bumping into Kubernetes, "Oh wow, this is great," different positions of the adoption. What's your message to each one, mainstream, fast followers, early adoptives, the early adoptives keep pushing, keep bringing that community together, form the community, fast forward. What's the position, what's the Kelsey Hightower view of each one of those points of the evolution? >> So I think we need a new model. So I think that model is kind of out now. Because if you look at the vendor relationships now, so the enterprise typically buys off the shelf when it's mature and ready to go. But at this point now, a lot of the library is all in the programming languages, if you see a language or library that you need, if it's on GitHub, you look around, it's like, "We're going to use this open-source library, "'cause we got to ship," right? So, they started doing early adoption maybe at the library level. Now you're starting to see it at the service level. So if I go to my partner or my vendor, and they say, "Hey, the new version of our software requires Kubernetes." Now, that's a little bit early for some of these enterprises to adopt, but now you're having the vendor relationship saying, "We will help you with Kubernetes." And also, a lot of these enterprises, it's early? Guess what, they have contributors to these projects. They helped design them. I remember back in the day, when I was in financial services, JPMC came out with their own messaging standard, so banks could communicate with each other. They gave that to Red Hat, and Red Hat turns it into a product, and now there's a new messaging standard. That kicked off ten years ago, and now we're starting to see these same enterprises contribute to Kubernetes. So I think now, there's a new model where, if it's early, enterprises are becoming the contributors, donating to the foundations, becoming members of things like CNCF, and on the flip side, they may still use their product, but they want a say in their future. >> So you can jump in at any level as a company, you don't need to wait for the mainstream, you can have a contributor, and in the front wave, to help shepherd through. >> Yeah, you need more say, I think when people bought typical enterprise software, if there wasn't a feature in there, you waited for the vendor to do it, the vendor comes up with their feature, and tells you it's going to cost another 200 million dollars for this add-on, and you have no say into the progress of it, or the speed of it. And then we moved to a world where there was APIs. Look, here's APIs, you can kind of build your own thing on top, now, the vendor's like, "You know what? "I'm going to help actually build the product that I rely on," so if vendor A is not my best partner right now, I could pick a different vendor and say, "Hey, I want a relationship, around this open-source "ecosystem, you have some features I like right now, "but I may want to able to modify them later." I think that's where we are right now. >> Well I think also the emergence of open-source offices, and things like that, and, you know, enterprises that are more monolithic, have really helped to move things forward with their users and their developers. I'm seeing a lot of folks here that are actually coming from larger companies inside of Europe, and they're actually trying to learn Kubernetes now, and they are here to bring that back into their companies, that they want to know about what's going on, right? >> That's a good observation-- >> It's great. >> That open-source office is replacing the I'm the vendor management person. >> Well you need legal-- >> Exactly. >> And you need all of those folks to just get the checkmarks, and get the approval, so that folks can actually take code in, and if it's under the right license, which is super important, or put code back out. >> And it seemed to be some of the same people that were managing the IBM relationship. The people that were managing the big vendor relationship, right? This thing's going to cost us all this cash, we got to make sure that we're getting the right, we're complying with the licensing model, that we're not using more than we paid for, in case we get an audit, the same group has some of the similar skills needed to shepherd their way through the open-source landscape, and then, in many cases, hiring in some of those core developers, to sit right in the organization, to give back, and to kind of have that first-tier support. >> That's a really good point, Lauren. I think this is why I think CNCF has been so successful is, they've kind of established the guardrails, and kind of the cultural notion of commercializing, while not foregoing the principles of open-source, so the operationalizing of open-source is really huge-- >> I'm kind of laughing over here, because, I started the open-source organization at Cisco, and Cisco was not, was new to open-source, and we had to put open data into the Linux Foundation, and I just remember the months of calls I was on, and the lawyers that I got to know, and-- >> You got scar tissue to prove it, too. >> I do, and I think when we did CNCF, I was talking to Craig years ago when we kind of kicked that off, it was really something that we wanted to do differently, we wanted to fast track it, we had the exact license that we wanted, we had the players that we wanted, and we really wanted to have this be something community-based, which I think, Kelsey, you've said it right there. It's really the communities that are coming together that you're seeing here. What else are you seeing here? What are the interesting projects that you see, that are kind of popping up, we have some, but are there others that you see? >> Well, so now, these same enterprises, now they have the talent, or at least not letting the talent leave, the talent now is like, "Well, we have an idea, and it's not core "to our business, let's open-source it." So, Intuit just inquired this workflow, small little start-up project, Argo, they're Intuit now, and maybe they had a need internally, suck in the right people, let the project continue, throw that Intuit logo there, and then sometimes you just see tools that are just being built internally, also be product ties from this open-source perspective, and it's a good way for these companies to stay engaged, and also to say, "Hey, if we're having this problem, "so are other people," so this is new, right? This open-source usually comes from the vendors, maybe a small group of developers, but now you're starting to see the companies say, "You know what, let's open-source our tool as well," and it's really interesting, because also they're pretty mature. They've been banked, they've been used, they're real, someone depends on them, and they're out. Interesting to see where that goes. >> Well yeah, Derek Hondell, from VMware, former Linux early guy, brought the same question. He says, "Don't confuse project with product." And to your point about being involved in the project, you can still productize, and then still have that dual relationship in a positive way, that's really a key point. >> Exactly, we're all learning how to share, and we're learning what to share. >> Okay, well let's do some self awareness here, well, for you, program's great, give you some props on that, you did a great job, you guys are the team, lot of high marks, question marks that are here that we've heard is security. Obviously, love Kubernetes, everyone's high-fiving each other, got to get back to work to reality, security is a conversation. Your thoughts on how that's evolving, obviously, this is front and center conversation, with all this service meshes and all these new services coming up, security is now being fought in the front end of this. What's your view? >> So I think the problem with security from certain people is that they believe that a product will come out that they can buy, to do security. Every time some new platform, oh, virtualization security. Java security. Any buzzword, then someone tries to attach security. >> It's a bolt-on. >> It's, yeah. So, I mean, most people think it's a practice. The last stuff that I seen on security space still applies to the new stack, it's not that the practice changed. Some of the threat models are the same, maybe some new threat models come up, or new threat models are aggravated because of the way people are using these platforms. But I think a lot of companies have never understood that. It's a practice, it will never be solved, there's nothing you can buy or subscribe to-- >> Not a silver bullet. >> Like antivirus, right? I'm only going to buy antivirus, as long as I run it, I should never get a virus. It's like, "No!" That's not how that works. The antivirus will be able to find things it knows about. And then you have to have good behavior to prevent having a problem in the first place. And I think security should be the same way, so I think what people need to do now, is they're being forced back into the practice of security. >> John: Security everywhere, basically. >> It's just a thing you have to do no matter what, and I think what people have to start doing with this conversation is saying, "If I adopt Kubernetes, does my threat model change?" "Does the container change the way I've locked down the VM?" In some cases, no, in some cases, yes. So I think when we start to have these conversations, everyone needs to understand the question you should ask of everyone, "What threat model should I be worried about, "and if it's something that I don't understand or know," that's when you might want to go look for a vendor, or go get some more training to figure out how you can solve it. >> And I think, Tyler Jewell was on from Ballerina, and he was talking about that yesterday, in terms of how they actually won't, they assume that the code is not secure. That is the first thing that they do when they're looking at Ballerina in their programming language, and how they actually accept code into it, is just they assume it's not secure. >> Oh exactly, like at Google we had a thing, we called it BeyondCorp. And there's other aspects to that, if you assume that it's going to be bad if someone was inside of your network, then pretend that someone is already inside your network and act accordingly. >> Yep, exactly, it's almost the reverse of the whitelisting. Alright, so let me ask you a question, you're in a unique position, glad to have you here on theCUBE, thanks for coming on and sharing your insights and perspective, but you also are the co-chair of this progress, so you get to see the landscape, you see the 20 mile stare, you have to have that long view, you also work at Google, which gives a perspective of things like BeyondCorp, and all of the large-scale work at Google, a lot of people want to, they're buying into the cloud-native, no doubt about it, there's still some educational work on the peoples' side, and process, and operationalizing it, with open-source, et cetera, but they want to know where the headroom is, they want to know, as you said, where's the directionally correct vector of the industry. So I got to ask you, in your perspective, where's all this going? For the folks watching who just want to have a navigation, paint the picture, what's coming directionally, shoot the arrow forward, as service meshes, as you start having this service layer, highly valuable, creative freedom to do things, what's the Kelsey vision on-- >> So I think this world of computing, after the mainframe, the mainframe, you want to process census data, you walk up, give it, it spits it back out. To me, that is beautiful. That's like almost the ultimate developer workflow. In, out. Then everyone's like, "I want my own computer, "and I want my own programming language, "and I want to write it in my basement, "without the proper power, or cords, or everything, "and we're all going to learn how "to do computing from scratch." And we all learnt, and we have what we call a legacy. All the mistakes I've made, but I maintain, and that's what we have! But the ultimate goal of computing is like the calculator, I want to be able to have a very simple interface, and the computer should give me an answer back. So where all this is going, Istio, service mesh, Kubernetes, cloud-native, all these patterns. Here's my app, run it for me. Don't ask me about auto scale groups, and all, run it for me. Give me a security certificate by default. Let's encrypt. Makes it super easy for anyone to get a tailored certificate rotated to all the right things. So we're slowly getting to a world where you can ask the question, "Here's my app, run it for me," and they say, "Here's the URL, "and when you hit this URL, we're going to do "everything that we've learned in the past "to make it secure, scalable, work for you." So that may be called open-shift, in its current implementation with Red Hat, Amazon may call it Lambda, Google Cloud may call it GKE plus some services, and we're never going to stop until the experience becomes, "Here's my app, run it for me." >> A resource pool, just programmability. And it's good, I think the enterprises are used to lifting and shifting, I mean, we've been through the evolution of IT, as we build the legacy, okay, consolidation, server consolidation, oh, hello VMs, now you have lift and shift. This is not a lift and shift kind of concept, cloud-native. It is a-- >> It doesn't have to be a lift and shift. So some people are trying to make it a lift and shift thing, where they say, "Look, you can bolt-on some of the stuff "that you're seeing in the new," and some consultants are like, "Hey, we'll sit their and roll up the sleeves, "and give you what we can," and I think that's an independent thing from where we're pushing towards. If you're ready, there's going to be a world, where you give us your code, and we run it, and it's scary for a lot of people, because they're going to be like, "Well, what do I do?" "What knobs do I twist in that world?" So I think that's just, that's where it's going. >> Well, in a world of millions of services coming out on the line, it's in operating, automation's got to be key, these are principles that have to go get bought into. I mean, you got to understand, administration is the exception, not the rule. This is the new world. It's kind of the Google world, and large-scale world, so it could be scary for some. I mean, you just bump into people all the time, "Hey Kelsey, what do I do?" And what do you say to them? You say, "Hey, what do I do?" What's the playbook? >> Often, so, it's early enough. I wasn't born in the mainframe time. So I'm born in this time. And right now when you look at this, it's like, well, this is your actual opportunity to contribute to what it should do. So if you want to sit on the sidelines, 'cause we're in that period now, where that isn't the case. And everyone right now is trying to figure out how to make it the case, so they're going to come up with their ways of doing things, and their standards, and then maybe in about ten years, you'll be asked to just use what we've all produced. Or, since you're actually around early enough, you can participate. That's what I tell people, so if you don't want to participate, then you get the checkpoints along the way. Here's what we offer, here's what they offer, you pick one, and then you stay on this digital transformation to the end of time. Or, you jump in, and realize that you're going to have a little bit more control over the way you operate in this landscape. >> Well, jumping in the deep end of the pool has always been the philosophy, get in and learn, and you'll survive, with a lot of community support, Kelsey, thanks for coming on, final question for you, surprise is, you're no longer going to be the co-chair, you've co-chaired up to this point, you've done a great job, what surprised you about KubeCon, the growth, the people? What are some of the things that have jumped out at you, either good, surprise, what you did expect, not expect, share some commentary on this movement, KubeCon and CloudNative. >> Definitely surprised that it's probably this big this fast, right? I thought people, definitely when I saw the technology earlier on, I was like, "This is definitely a winner," "regardless of who agrees." So, I knew that early on. But to be this big, this fast, and all the cloud providers agreeing to use it and sell it, that is a surprise, I figured one or two would do it. But to have all of them, if you go to their website, and you read the words Kubernetes' strong competitors, well alright, we all agree that Kubernetes is okay. That to me is a surprise that they're here, they have booths, they're celebrating it, they're all innovating on it, and honestly, this is one of those situations that, no matter how fast they move, everyone ends up winning on this particular deal, just the way Kubernetes was set up, and the foundation as a whole, that to me is surprising that it's still true, four years later. >> Yeah, I mean rising tide floats all boats, when you have an enabling, disruptive technology like Kubernetes, that enables people to be successful, there's enough cake to be eating for everybody. >> Awesome. >> Kelsey Hightower, big time influencer here, inside theCUBE cloud, computing influencer, also works at Google as a developer advocate, also co-chair of KubeCon 2018, I wish you luck in the next chapter, stepping down from the co-chair role-- >> Stepping down from the co-chair, but always in the community. >> Always in the community. Great voice, great guy to have on theCUBE, check him out online, his great Twitter feed, check him out on Twitter, Kelsey Hightower, here on theCUBE, I'm joined here by Lauren Cooney, be right back with more coverage here at KubeCon 2018, stay with us, we'll be right back. (bright electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF Cloud Native Compute Foundation, which is part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got two great guests here, we've got Liz Rice, the co-chair of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, kind of a dual naming because it's Kubernetes and it's Cloud Native and also technology evangelist at Aqua Security. She's co-chairing with Kelsey Hightower who will be on later today, and CUBE alumni as well, and Janet Kuo who is a software engineer at Google. Welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for inviting us. >> Super excited, we have a lot of energy even though we've got interviews all day and it's kind of, we're holding the line here. It's almost a celebration but also not a celebration because there's more work to do with Kubernetes. Just the growth of the CNCF continues to hit some interesting good performance KPIs on metrics. Growth's up on the membership, satisfaction is high, Kubernetes is being called a de facto standard. So by all kind of general qualitative metrics and quantitative, it's doing well. >> Lauren: It's doing great. >> But it's just the beginning. >> Yeah, yeah. I talked yesterday a little bit in, in the keynote, about project updates, about how Kubernetes has graduated. That's a real signal of maturity. It's a signal to the end-user companies out there that you know, the risk, nothing is ever risk-free, but you know, Kubernetes is here to stay. It's stable, it's got stable governance model, you know, it's not going away. >> John: It's working. >> It's going to continue to evolve and improve. But it's really working, and we've got end users, you know, not only happy and using it, they're prepared to come to this conference and share their stories, share their learnings, it's brilliant. >> Yeah, and Janet also, you know, you talk about China, we have announcement that, I don't know if it's formally announced, but Shanghai, is it out there now? >> Lauren: It is. >> Okay, so Shanghai in, I think November 14th, let me get the dates here, 14th and 15th in Shanghai, China. >> Janet: Yeah. >> Where it's going to be presented in either English or in Chinese, so it's going to be fully translated. Give us the update. >> Yeah, it will be fully translated, and we'll have a CFP coming soon, and people will be submitting their talks in English but they can choose to present either in English or Chinese. >> Can you help us get a CUBE host that can translate theCUBE for us? We need some, if you're out there watching, we need some hosts in China. But in all seriousness, this is a global framework, and this is again the theme of Cloud Native, you know. Being my age, I've seen the lift and shift IT world go from awesome greatness to consolidation to VMwares. I've seen the waves. But this is a different phenomenon with Cloud Native. Take a minute to share your perspectives on the global phenomenon of Cloud Native. It's a global platform, it's not just IT, it's a global platform, the cloud, and what that brings to the table for end users. >> I think for end users, if we're talking about consumers, it actually is, well what it's doing is allowing businesses to develop applications more quickly, to respond to their market needs more quickly. And end users are seeing that in more responsive applications, more responsive services, improved delivery of tech. >> And the businesses, too, have engineers on the front lines now. >> Absolutely, and there's a lot of work going on here, I think, to basically, we were talking earlier about making technology boring, you know, this Kubernetes level is really an abstraction that most application developers don't really need to know about. And making their experience easier, they can just write their code and it runs. >> So if it's invisible to the application developer, that's the success. >> That's a really helpful thing. They shouldn't have to worry about where their code is running. >> John: That's DevOps. >> Yeah, yeah. >> I think the container in Kubernetes technology or this Cloud Native technology that brings developer the ability to, you know, move fast and give them the agility to react to the business needs very quickly. And also users benefit from that and operators also, you know, can manage their applications much more easily. >> Yeah, when you have that abstraction layer, when you have that infrastructure as code, or even this new abstraction layer which is not just infrastructure, it's services, micro-services, growth has been phenomenal. You're bringing the application developer into an efficiency productivity mode where they're dictating the business model through software of the companies. So it's not just, "Hey build me something "and let's go sell it." They're on the front lines, writing the business logic of businesses and their customers. So you're seeing it's super important for them to have that ability to either double down or abandon quickly. This is what agile is. Now it's going from software to business. This, to me, I think is the highlight for me on this show. You see the dots connecting where the developers are truly in charge of actually being a business impact because they now have more capability. As you guys put this together and do the co-chair, do you and Kelsey, what do you guys do in the room, the secret room, you like, "Well let's do this on the content." I mean, 'cause there's so much to do. Take us through the process. >> So, a little bit of insight into how that whole process works. So we had well over 1,000 submissions, which, you know, there's no, I think there's like 150 slots, something like that. So that's a pretty small percentage that we can actually accept. We had an amazing program committee, I think there were around 60 people who reviewed, every individual reviewer looked at a subset. We didn't ask them to look at all thousand, that would be crazy. They scored them, that gave us a kind of first pass, like a sort of an ability to say, "Well, anything that was below average, "we can only take the top 15%, "so anything that's below average "is not going to make the cut." And then we could start looking at trying to balance, say, for example, there's been a lot of talk about were there too many Istio talks? Well, there were a lot of Istio talks because there were a lot of Istio submissions. And that says to us that the community wants to talk about Istio. >> And then number of stars, that's the number one project on the new list. I mean, Kubeflow and Istio are super hot. >> Yeah, yeah, Kubeflow's another great example, there are lots of submissions around it. We can't take them all but we can use the ratings and the advice from the program committee to try and assemble, you know, the best talks to try and bring different voices in, you know, we want to have subject matter experts and new voices. We want to have the big name companies and start-ups, we wanted to try and get a mix, you know. A diversity of opinion, really. >> And you're a membership organization so you have to balance the membership needs with the content program so, challenging with given the growth. I mean, I can only imagine. >> Yeah, so as program co-chairs, we actually have a really free hand over the content, so it's one of the really, I think, nice things about this conference. You know, sponsors do get to stand on stage and deliver their message, but they don't get to influence the actual program. The program is put together for the community, and by doing things like looking at the number of submissions, using those signals that the community want to talk about, I hope we can carry on giving the attendees that format. >> I would just say from an outsider perspective, I think that's something you want to preserve because if you look at the success of the CNCF, one thing I'm impressed by is they've really allowed a commercial environment to be fostered and enabled. But they didn't compromise the technical. >> Lauren: Yeah. >> And the content to me, content and technical tracks are super important because content, they all work together, right? So as long as there's no meddling, stay in your swim lane, whatever, whatever it is. Content is really important. >> Absolutely, yeah. >> Because that's the learning. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay, so what's on the cut list that you wish you could have put back on stage? Or is that too risque? You'll come back to that. >> Yeah. >> China, talk about China. Because obviously, we were super impressed last year when we went to go visit Alibaba just to the order of magnitude to the cultural mindset for their thinking around Cloud Native. And what I was most impressed with was Dr. Wong was talking about artistry. They just don't look at it as just technology, although they are nerdy and geeky like us in Silicon Valley. But they really were thinking about the artistry 'cause the app side of it has kind of a, not just design element to the user perspective. And they're very mobile-centric in China, so they're like, they were like, "This is what we want to do." So they were very advanced in my mind on this. Does that change the program in China vis a vis Seattle and here, is there any stark differences between Shanghai and Copenhagen and Seattle in terms of the program? Is there a certain focus? What's the insight into China? >> I think it's a little early to say 'cause we haven't yet opened the CFP. It'll be opening soon but I'm fully expecting that there will be, you know, some differences. I think the, you know, we're hoping to have speakers, a lot more speakers from China, from Asia, because it's local to them. So, like here, we tried to have a European flavor. You'll see a lot of innovators from Europe, like Spotify and the Financial Times, Monzo Bank. You know, they've all been able to share their stories with us. And I think we're hoping to get the same kind of thing in China, hear local stories as well. >> I mean that's a good call. I think conferences that do the rinse and repeat from North America and just slap it down in different regions aren't as effective as making it localized, in a way. >> Yeah. >> That's super important. >> I know that a lot of China companies, they are pretty invested pretty heavily into Kubernetes and Cloud Native technology and they are very innovative. So I actually joined a project in 2015 and I've been collaborating with a lot of Chinese contributors from China remotely on GitHub. For example, the contributors from Huawei and they've been invested a lot in this. >> And they have some contributors in the core. >> Yeah, so we are expecting to see submissions from those contributors and companies and users. >> Well, that's super exciting. We look forward to being there, and it should be excellent. We always have a fun time. The question that I want to ask you guys now, just to switch gears is, for the people watching who couldn't make it or might watch it on YouTube on Demand who didn't make the trip. What surprised you here? What's new, I'm asking, you have a view as the co-chair, you've seen it. But was there anything that surprised you, or did it go right? Nothing goes perfect. I mean, it's like my wedding, everything happens, didn't happen the way you planned it. There's always a surprise. Any wild cards, any x-factors, anything that stands out to you guys? >> So what I see from, so I attend, I think around five KubeCons. So from the first one it's only 550 people, only the small community, the contributors from Google and Red Hat and CoreOS and growing from now. We are growing from the inner circle to the outside circle, from the just contributors to also the users of it, like and also the ecosystem. Everyone that's building the technology around Cloud Native, and I see that growth and it's very surprising to me. We have a keynote yesterday from CERN and everyone is talking about their keynote, like they have I think 200 clusters, and that's amazing. And they said because of Kubernetes they can just focus on physics. >> Yeah, and that's a testimonial right there. >> Yeah. >> That was really good stories to hear, and I think maybe one of the things that surprises me, it sort of continues to surprise me is how collaborative, it's something about this kind of organization, this conference, this whole kind of movement, if you like. Where companies are coming in and sharing their learnings, and we've seen that, we've seen that a lot through the keynotes. And I think we see it on the conference floor, we see it in the hallway chat. And I think we see it in the way that the different SIGs and working groups and projects are all, kind of, collaborating on problem solving. And that's really exciting. >> That's why I was saying earlier in the beginning that there's a celebration amongst ourselves and the community. But also a realization that this is just the beginning, it's not a, it's kind of like when you get venture funding if you're a start-up. That's really when it begins, you don't celebrate, but you take a little bit of a pause. Now my personal take only to all of the hundreds of events we do a year is that I that think this community here has fought the hard DevOps battle. If you go back to 2008 timeframe, and '08, '09, '10, '11, '12, those years were, those were hyper scale years. Look at Google, Facebook, all the original DevOps engineers, they were eating glass and spitting nails. It was hard work. And it was really build your own, a lot of engineering, not just software development. So I think this, kind of like, camaraderie amongst the DevOps community saying, "Look, this is a really big "step up function with Kubernetes." Everyone's had some scar tissue. >> Yeah, I think a lot of people have learned from previous, you know, even other open source projects that they've worked on. And you see some of the amazing work that goes into the kind of, like, community governance side. The things that, you know, Paris Pittman does around contributor experience. It's so good to see people who are experts in helping developers engage, helping engineers engage, really getting to play that role. >> There's a lot of common experiences for people who have never met each other because there's people who have seen the hard work pay with scale and leverage and benefits. They see it, this is amazing. We had Sheryl from Google on saying, "When I left Google and I went out into the real world, "I was like, oh my God, "they don't actually use Borg," like, what? "What do they, how do they actually write software?" I mean, so she's a fish out of water and that, it's like, so again I think there's a lot of commonality, and it's a super great opportunity and a great community and you guys have done a great job, CNCF. And we hope to nurture that, the principles, and looking forward to China. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, we appreciate it. >> Yeah. >> Okay we're here at CNCF's KubeCon 2018, I'm John Furrier, more live coverage. Stay with us, day two of two days of CUBE coverage. Go to thecube.net, siliconangle.com for all the coverage. We'll be back, stay with us after this short break.

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's the Cube. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018, brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to the Cube's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the CNCF, the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, I'm John Furrier cohost of the Cube, here with my cohost this week Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. Got two great guests in the industry here, Lew Tucker, the CTO of Cloud Computing for Cisco Systems and Aparna Sinha who's the group project manager for Google Cloud, thanks for coming on, great to see you guys. >> Great to be here >> Thanks for having us. >> So obviously the two big players, you've got networking, you've got moving up the stack and Google Cloud with all the goodness you have hundreds of people here at this show. Cloud native big, you're cloud native, >> Aparna: Yeah. >> You guys are running the networks a lot of stuff's happening, but the big story's the Kubernetes de facto standard position that's been echoed by many people here, Kubernetes tightly controlled core with a lot of innovation going on around Kubernetes. >> Aparna: Yes. >> When I hear words like de facto standards, it reminds me of the old networking days when the OSI model and the TCPIP was forming. Massive shifts at that point. >> Lew: Yeah, yeah. >> Almost a seminal moment now. >> Yeah but in fact I think in open source it's a different notion than in the old days of standards. Here we've got multiple communities, multiple companies that are working together to create a common platform and that's what I think the success of open source is about. So actually, Kubernetes coming into CNCF has really makes that possible and we just graduated it so we should have a celebration around Kubernetes now has graduated in terms of a CNCF project. >> Yeah and you know one think I would say about de facto standard, I don't take that for granted. Kubernetes is built as a platform that runs anywhere across on premises, data centers, public clouds, runs anywhere but, you know that it will be or is a de facto standard is something that we don't take for granted. We make sure in the community that we're working on increase support for, for example different types of storage with a storage interface standard, different types of networking, with a CNI different types of run times, so establishing those interfaces and establishing those standards is key to making it the platform. But that's certainly the potential of Kubernetes is to be-- >> Yeah I mean it's not the end game, it's the beginning. >> Aparna: It is. >> And the nurturing and making sure that ecosystem with thrive is important. And that's why I want to get your thoughts, 'cause you've got Google and Cisco here so lets talk about first the relationship, you guys are working together. >> Lew: Absolutely, yeah. >> Talk about the relationship between Google and Cisco. >> Sure, I think it came about because we're both recognizing that enterprises for example are incorporating cloud computing as a part of their overall IT strategy. And so they needed to find a way, how can they actually make that happen without companies that are working in both of those areas getting together. So it's very natural I think for the two of us to sort of come together because this way we can take our enterprise customers and using Kubernetes as sort of the foundational platform make it so that they can run applications wherever they want, they can run it in their private data center they can run it in Google Cloud, and we can make this now, to provide a lot of the networking so that you can extend private networks into Google Cloud and vice versa, so I think it's a marriage made in heaven in that way. >> Aparna you're reaction to the partnership. >> Yeah, you know, Google is a very developer friendly, developer focused company, always has been, you know the majority of Google is actually developers so it's a company for developers by developers and you know with Google Cloud actually the irony is we're also a networking company and so there's a nice affinity working with Cisco. Our DNA is very much open source, there's multiple projects that have come out of Google that have been very successful open source projects. I mean Tenser Flow, Kubernetes I think is unique in that we've really created and participated and built a community around it and so with this partnership, we're really excited to have Cisco also be part of the community, certainly with Kubernetes but also the Istio Project. And a lot of the projects in cloud native have come from Google's experience running services at global scale. Kubernetes certainly came that way from the Borg heritage and then Istio also from, from what we call one platform, internally to manage service. >> That's a great point, you brought up scale and it's interesting, it's almost like you have two large scale companies here, you have Cisco with massive scale footprint of enterprises from day one, routers you need to move packets around the internet. You guys have built scale for Google with millions of services out there, millions of users, I mean it's unprecedented. So now as you come into the enterprise, the Cisco relationship is an opportunity to blend the best of Google with the footprint at Cisco, how is that going to work, how's that working and what's the vision? I mean obviously it's a nice match, you've got a great footprint in the enterprise, you've got massive scale with the cloud, bringing that in, moving it out, hybrid cloud obviously, is that the? >> Yeah well we often notice for example as I sort of said, the foundational piece is actually running Kubernetes everywhere and so we just recently announced a Cisco container platform which is based on Kubernetes, that means that enterprises now can develop applications in Google Cloud and then run them in their enterprises or vice verse and then on top of that and we're adding in the networking capabilities, through things such as CSR and things like that to allow us to connect both the enterprise and their public cloud running Kubernetes and then Istio as we're mentioning is this thing on top and I'm, as you know, a big fan of where that really is going to take us because I think one of the things that enterprises want to be able to do is that they want to be able to consume services out of Google Cloud, whether it be in kind of terms of the data services or increasingly AI, intelligence service, Tenser Flow, be able to use as a part of their enterprise applications and so I have within my team for example contributed both in terms of what we're doing in terms of Istio, Kubernetes, I've got people on my team who are bringing for example IPB6 into Kubernetes, that's important because, guess what, service providers also want to move into a container world. And then also Cube Flow and so all of these things are starting to come together so that you can start building applications as an assembly of these services and many other services that I will see coming from the public cloud and Google in particular. >> Aparna, I want to ask you, because this is important to distinguish this Istio trend because we asked a lot of people at the Cube here and in our reporting, okay what's next after Kubernetes? If you have a de facto standard, you have stuff coming around it, an eco system, everyone talks about service mesh and Istio project. >> Aparna: Yeah. >> Now the best thing about infrastructure as code which is dev ops in the cloud is you can make things programmable and automate, so if you look at what Istio's doing, it feels like an application benefit but also an automated networking concept with services. >> Aparna: Sure. >> So you got kind of a new dynamic going on where a lot of dynamic things are happening a lot of services are being provisioned, maybe for the first time. >> Aparna: Yeah, yeah. >> So how do you instrument it? This is going to be a future area of innovation. >> So again going back to that standard, right? That platform that runs everywhere, why is it a standard, why is it becoming a standard and I hear this from our customers, our users, it's because they don't have to train multiple times for multiple different environments, they can really scale their workforce, they can hire people that they trained up in Kubernetes and they can scale that workforce so it applies regardless of where they go and it gives them that mobility and if you think about the eco system around Kubernetes right so Kubernetes is one project, a major big project but then the eco system around Kubernetes has really exploded in the last year it has gone from 4000 projects to 15000 projects and I was looking through those projects and seeing you know, which are the ones that have the most stars and there's actually three projects that stood out as having more than 3000 stars but being new, like in the last year and Istio was at the top of that list and obviously it's very popular in terms of the number of stars but it's only one year old and I don't know how much people know that. >> And I think it's interesting, 'cause I'm going to throw kind of a curve ball here at you and say, you know I'm hearing that the service mesh is actually, people are using it. >> Aparna: Yes. >> But it's actually hasn't been deployed into production, is that the case? >> Aparna: It's starting to be. >> Okay. >> So on GKE, Google Kubernetes Engine we've got customers that are deploying Istio, it's starting. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Again it's a one year old project and then also on premise, using the open source and we've got a program called the EEPE program it's like an early program, they're deploying and using Istio and it tends to be a very nice attach to Kubernetes. >> So what is the use case for that? >> One of the things to understand, it is very new and less than a year old, we're not even at a one dot out yet but the components that go into it, Envoy for example has been battle tested because Istio's made up of, just to get technical, in terms of having proxies that make up the data plane and that's battle testing or whatever. So now we're adding a control plane on top of that, where policy, telemetry, observability, all of that comes to the fore. That's what's new. So bringing that together and so people have and Istio's not the only service mesh, service meshes have actually been made up of these proxies and have you manage them, Istio's just seems to be a better way to the community is agreeing-- >> A proxy can be very inefficient, so I want to just ask a question on that because one of the things that I'm trying to understand is for the average person in tech, not the inside baseball, they're trying to understand why is Istio so powerful. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So is there, what paid points are they solving? >> The easiest way to think about that is we've moved to a microservices architecture and that's so that every development team can focus on their particular area of expertise, they don't want to have to learn networking and everything else, so what we've done is we've offloaded all of the issues around how do you do load balancing, circuit breakers and telemetry off to a service mesh, that allows the developer to dramatically increase their productivity because they're only focused on their one application area and now the operations team brings that together through the networking concept. >> Aparna: Yes. >> So they built a distributed application without having to know very much about the specificity. >> Yes, it's very much that separation of concern and you know Kubernetes has the same principle, it separates you know the infrastructure from the applications and what Istio does, it allows you to manage those applications at scale, visualize them, make them secure and to control them in a scalable way, so you're not writing the service management pieces into the application and the developer is therefor freed from that burden and the application operations team can then manage things like distributing certificates or rotating certificates, right? Those are things you need to do across all of your services. >> So you're bringing us on that system and I know you guys run at scale, hundreds of thousand of services, if not more, I don't know what the number is, millions whatever it is. >> Aparna: Four million containers. >> Tons. >> Aparna: A week! >> So when you talk about that, what I'm hearing and I've talked to the SRE, site reliable engineers before, the roll of the admin is gone to more of an operator and then the operator role is less of an operating, 'cause it's operating only on exception, 'cause if you got policy in the control plane, that seems to be where the action is, is that, am I getting that right? How do you explain that notion of less admin, more operational kind of-- >> There is a change in roles, the administration of the application is not so application specific if you will, right? And I think the best analogy to it is the way we do development at Google, everybody is a developer right? And they write their services but there's a lot of common infrastructure that you do not replicate so for example storage, monitoring, logging, you know publishing your API, you know quotas, rate limiting, chargebacks, billing, all of that is common infrastructure, you write your service, it is immediately using all of that infrastructure, you don't build those things into your application and that has so many benefits, you know you can write your service and it can be global. >> So on time savings, no brainer, automation-- >> And when you change any one of those services that has a monitoring or anything, now you don't have to tell the application development team that that change is happening. >> So this is infrastructure as code, passes the test right? You can program the infrastructure. >> This is services, this is a services world, rather than infrastructure world or an application siloed world, this is the world of services, that's really what we're here for. >> What's the growth in microservices? I'm seeing different stats, can you just give an order of magnitude, just from your own personal experience in looking at the market, how fast is the notion of microservices growing? 'Cause this is really the proxy for the cloud native shift. And you guys are certainly micro services oriented, we talk about this all the time, any data or any anecdotes around growth of microservices? >> Well I mean there's a lot of surveys and most of the surveys point towards, I think containers are a good proxy, you know 88 percent of enterprises are using containers, it's becoming, whether you move to the cloud or not actually containers are basically a way of doing things more repeatedly, giving you efficiency from an infrastructure perspective giving you reliability so that you know you can basically exchange out the hardware and your container environment is still resilient and then giving you that developer productivity, that's becoming something that enterprises are embracing, it seems from these surveys and I think that's the building block for microservices. >> And I think many people are already moved, remember Soho, we've got history here, so we've been trying to move towards this world in which it is a services world and before it was much too heavyweight Ectimel RPC and everything that made it, Soap and everything else, difficult to do these things. Now things have gotten much much easier. So a lot of people are actually doing a services architecture already. And the microservices I think is just a more formal way of doing that at a finer grain and when you get to this finer grain, that's when you need something like a service mesh now to pull things back together again. >> Alright, lets do a plug for the service mesh, people that are watching have got to be intrigued by this conversation, what's the state of the service mesh piece, lot of stars so good good community vibe going on, how do they get involved, what's needed, where's the white space, where's the work being done? >> And I think also John, what skills are needed to actually as a developer, you know we've got a lot of new folks here at that show that are just learning about this and what do they need to know to actually do this and bring this back to their companies. >> If they're, so first of all it's at Istio.io so that's the place to start, there's a lot of very good documentation there, there's very simple examples that can be downloaded so that you can try it out, you can try it out we're using containers so on top of cumulating, you can do it on your laptop, you can do it in the cloud so we're in this wonderful age of the internet in fact that most of the learning is done online and that you can get everything you need online you don't have to walk away from the show with a CD pack or anything else like that. So I would encourage developers to just simply try it out by themselves. Remember then there's Istio developers, people that are actually contributing code into Istio, that's sort of a specialized group of people who are very interested in it. More people, it'll be 10 to one users of Istio than there will be actually of the Istio developer community and the Istio developer community I urge people to get involved 'cause that's where we need to expand the number of use cases and make sure that we're covering the things that are important across the board for variety. >> Yeah, I mean Istio's not that difficult to learn, it's an L7 Proxy. It has a great affinity to Kubernetes project so if you are using Kubernetes or are involved in Kubernetes project then it basically is something that you can deploy into your Kubernetes cluster and you can get started with it. There are a number of trainings and workshops actually at this conference, there were a couple of Istio trainings and there are many tracks and then there's training online, there's a tutorial on the Google site with the GKE and I think on many other companies as well to get started with Istio but it's basically a proxy and in, it's not actually only limited to Kubernetes, you can run it in a VM environment, you can, it basically any service, it is a proxy that intercepts and you know basically can provide load balancing, traffic managing, quotas, all of those things that you expect of a rich proxy and so if you have a networking background it's actually very easy to pick it up. >> That's great, now when you're talking about these kind of, you know, these proxy and things along those lines, I'm sure that there are use cases that are the first ones to pop up, can you talk a little bit about that. >> Yes, I think the first use case of Istio is actually Canary, Canary deployment, so being able to route traffic from one version of your application to another version of your application. Make sure that that, lets say it's an upgrade, you know, make sure that that's running well and then gradually route more of you're traffic. So that's a very developer centric use case that appeals and then of course security. And that's a less developer centric, more control and ops perspective and then observability and again, control, also an ops perspective, those are the three main use cases. >> Okay. >> That's great, that's awesome and you have Cube Flow going on here, you guys had a couple of Google folks on. >> Yes, so I mentioned three projects that are the top projects, Istio number one, number two is Cube Flow, again within the last year, more than 3000 stars and then the last one is Scaffold. >> Great stuff, I love the programmability, automation. >> And one of the things that we mentioned before, because when people hear proxy, they think of the old time, actually when you've used a proxy and a DNS which now it's very high performance and one of the things that you're seeing also, it connects up with other open source projects such as FDIO which is VPP, which is now being used, integrated into envoy which is a proxy, so the data plane itself, I think is going to be more efficient than people trying to do their own network. >> That's a good point Lew, I mean people think proxies are inefficient, it's a hack, a bridge between point A and point B. >> Yes, that was a lot of the initial skepticism around this, so you know, this was about two years ago we were sitting around saying okay, Kubernetes, what's next? And we came up with a open service broker, so you can consume services and then the early start of Istio, starting with Envoy and then building the service mesh around that and that was indeed one of the early concerns as well, will it be too heavy, will it add latency, will there be performance bottle neck, I think a lot of that concern has been addressed and it will continue to be addressed. >> Well we got to wrap up be I want to get some comments from you guys, reaction to the show here in Europe, obviously Google is in big force, Istio is prime time, you predicted that in Austin, it looks like it's tracking beautifully, reactions, what did you walk away with here from this event? What observations, revelations, surprises, share some color for the folks that couldn't make it. >> We were talking earlier about the number of use cases now that we've seen that our customers are coming in and describing how they're using Kubernetes and other of the technologies making up the cloud native world. And that allows people to learn and so that's what I'm always excited, because I can sit there in the audience and you can see everybody else going oh, I'm going to apply that to what I'm trying to do and just the breath now of-- >> John: So you're surprised at the uptake, or you're happy with the uptake, that's your reaction? >> Yeah and I think you would agree too. >> Yeah, I think the reason I come to KubeCon is to meet users, it's a user conference, and with each passing KubeCon, it becomes more and more user-centric so some of the talks here, the takeaways that I had, you know the folks from Spotify talked about how users need to get more involved and the benefits of getting more involved in the community, that was a very inspiring talk. Another talk yesterday talked about how Kubernetes needs to be a platform for everything, not just cloud native, but actually also Legacy and so these are points. And then the third piece, a lot of users talking about multicloud, right and making that a reality, these are things that I'm taking away as you know, users are doing this today. >> John: Multicloud certainly is a path, people have that outcome in mind. >> Yes. >> Doing the work now to get there. Thanks for coming on, Aparna and Lew. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you guys, you're awesome, senior folks in the industry, experienced executives, driving the change here, cloud native, microservices architecture, whole new modern paradigm shift in software architecture, here at KubeCon, Kubernetes, Istio, hot projects, Cube Flow and more here on the Cube, live coverage here in Copenhagen, stay with us for more coverage, after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. This is the theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018, part of the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, also known as CNCF. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, the founder of Spark Labs. We have two of the main players here at the Linux Foundation, CNCF, Dan Kohn, Cube alumni, Executive Director, and Dee Kumar, Vice President of product marketing. Great to see you guys. Welcome back. >> Oh, thrilled to be here. >> So you guys, not to build your head up a little bit, but you're doing really well. Successful, we're excited to be a part of the seeing, witnessing the growth. I know you work hard, we've talked in the past and off camera. Just, it's working. CNCF's formula is working. The Linux Foundation has brought a lot to the table, you've taken the ball with this cloud-native community, with Kubernetes' growth, good actors in the community, a lot of things clicking on all cylinders. >> Thanks, we're thrilled to be here. And, yeah, 43 hundred people is the biggest ever for KubeCon CloudNativeCon. It's actually the biggest conference the Linux Foundation has ever thrown, which is incredibly exciting, and also here in Europe to show it's not just a North American focus. >> And you've got the big North American event in Seattle. What's the over-under on that? Six thousand, eight thousand? >> (laughing) I think we could probably go a little higher. 75 hundred we're going to max out, so we'll see if we hit that or not. But we had 42 hundred six months ago when you were with us in Austin, and so we think a ton of people, you know people joke about Seattle being the cloudy city, because it's not just Amazon there, but Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and IBM all have huge Cloud offices. >> Yeah, and University of Washington has an amazing program in computer science, a lot of tech there. Seattle's certainly an awesome city. I got to ask you, you know, you do a lot of work with the members in the organization. Obviously the success is well-documented. We're seeing that Kubernetes is now going to main stream tech. And still learning, a lot of people learning about Kubernetes, but there's a lot going on. You talk to a lot of people. What's the vibe? What's the conversation like? What is actually happening in the membership organization that's notable, that you'd like to share and get the word out on? >> Actually Dee's been working directly with all the members since we've been putting together our marketing plan. >> So one thing I can do share, in terms of the vibe, and some of the feedback that we have received from the members, is they really, I think it's about what we've heard from all the keynotes and the sessions, it's about really us coming together as a community and defining, what is Cloud-native? And what's that journey? And so as a step towards that, what we have done as in CNCF is we have launched the interactive landscape which kind of showcases a lot of the member work that we are jointly working on. And secondly, the trail map is our attempt to define what is the cloud-native journey. So we've kind of highlighted about 10 steps and the processes to get to a cloud-native journey. And I think the next steps, in terms of the vision and the goal, is to really engage the member community and to start building on that. What is containerization? What is orchestration? Microservices? CICD? And Dan, I think in his keynote, touched upon continuous integration. We really need to figure out integration, testing, development, deployment, and what does that, all that narrative mean, and how as a community we have a common understanding and a framework. And then the next step would again be in terms of building use cases, and also really showcasing some heroes in the community which is our developers. So our developers and contributors end of the day are the heart and soul of the cloud-native ecosystem. So we really want to bring their stories, match that up with our end users. We're seeing incredible growth with just leveraging the cloud-native different types of architectures. >> One of the things I'm looking at, the cloud-native Interactive Landscape map, which is, by the way, pretty impressive. The market cap numbers in the trillions, of course includes Amazon, (Dee laughing) so let's take that out, but good healthy distribution. I want to talk about the startups, because they are going to be the lifeblood of the future. The total funding to date is 4.7 billion of cloud-native compute foundation members, startups. Significant investment. They got to build, they're building products. What do they care about? What is the most important thing for them? You guys, can you share what they're asking for, is there a profile that you're seeing emerge? Because there's a new era coming, right? It's the new guard. The new guard of startups. >> There's incredible diversity of startups there, and what I love about the startup ecosystem, kind of like the open source ecosystem, is they're all looking for their niche. And so there's kind of an evolutionary strategy for it. But it's really amazing to see different approaches towards attacking different markets, consulting specific products and such. One of the neat things about CNCF is that we like to think of ourselves as a commercially friendly startup. All 20 of our projects, commercially friendly open source foundation. All 20 of our projects use the Apache 2.0 license which allows you to create a commercial product on top of it. We are very cognizant of the fact that most large enterprises are going to want support from a business startup or an established industry player and in many cases, both, in order to roll this out. And so we love the fact that that's available if they need it, but they also could download the projects directly and work with it themselves if they want. >> Well I think that's an important point. I always want to highlight, because what you said I think is really, I think, is a big part of the success. You guys do a great job of balancing community, and the role of the people within the community, and the traditional Linux Foundation mission of having great open source. But at the same time, you're like, hey, it's okay to have a business model with Open. And I think this new era is being highly accelerated on commercialization. And I think this is, I think, a unique part of the digital fabric, the digital businesses of the future. And Cloud hits that right on. So that's, to me, a great step. The question I have for you is, how do you keep it going? What's next? Because the bar is high. Now you got to do more. What's the strategy? What's the plan? >> So one thing we can do is, like a highlighter to get back to the cloud-native journey, as a story. Today we kind of have a lot of emphasis on Kubernetes. And it's just not limited to containers and orchestration, and we really want to expand the narrative and the story to address all the 20, 19 different projects that is all housed under the cloud-native computing foundation umbrella. And we really want to bring out use cases, value props, and I think there's a lot to be told here. Like how do we address security? There's a lot of sessions and keynotes today that bring about security applications, testing, CICD, how does it develop a community, can enable all these different amazing technologies. So we've had a lot of talk about it, but I think it's something that startups that I've been talking to have asked me to help or the CNCF in terms of just simplifying these conversations. Like how do we make it simple? And to your earlier point, like they want to start with simplicity and that eventually leads to monetization, and they want to take the fabric from CNCF so they can then start building a narrative in terms of a solution, and what does that mean in terms of value creation? >> Exactly and I actually work with a couple startups inside of the CNCF, and work with them on their business model, and what they're doing, and what is that narrative that they're going to start telling? You know, I think it's interesting because you have all these communities actually coming together in that ecosystem. And when you take a look at that, you probably, you talk about use cases. And I think those are really what the developers are going to be driven towards is their, you know, onboarding to this platform, basically. And what are the top use cases that you guys see kind of across the board? >> So I think there are three main use cases and I think our partner did a great job of summarizing that today. So I think it's primarily security, because that's the enterprise audience, and most Fortune 100 companies are dealing with that. Second, I would say it's about agility. It's about who gets to market first, and back to the startup point. It's about addressing that. Thirdly I would just say it's scalability. I think it's about going beyond, you know, a science project where you just have Kubernetes, or a couple containers deployed in your own QA or staging environments. And people are really thinking about, how do you adopt Kubernetes on a large scale? How do you take it to a production type of environment? And what does that mean? And I think, today, "Financial Times" Sarah Wells, she did an amazing job of just taking us through what it took them in terms of getting from where they were and how they had to deal with, you know, all the challenges and I think she made a great point about technologies can be boring. So I think that was some of the key takeaways in terms of the three use cases that we could build on collectively would be agility, scalability, and security. >> Well, you're also changing the conversation, really. You know, we had the great customer of, you know, Kubernetes on here earlier. And they were talking about, really, how their whole infrastructure, they don't have to worry about it, it's, you know, based on AWBS now and they were phenomenal and, really, what the point was is that, you know, they are not just an energy company, they're actually a technology company and a software company. And that's really what, you know, folks want to be working with today. And are you seeing more of that as, you know, with the startups, is that they have the opportunity to start shifting their companies more in the direction of technology for the end users? >> Absolutely. Yeah. But it is amazing the just range of different approaches that they're taking. But we think there's every level of the stack. We have this, you referred to the Interactive Landscape before, and I will give the quick pitch, it's a l.cncf.io, but it is amazing to see all of the different layers of which these startups are operating. >> And you guys do a good job of breaking down which ones are open source, which ones are not, funding, public, private, category. So, good job. So what's the numbers look like? Dan, I'd like you to just take a minute, just, I know you do this a lot, but just do it on the record, what's the numbers? Members, growth? How many cities are you going to be doing KubeCon in? You mentioned Shanghai before we came on. Just run us through the numbers, inside the numbers. >> So, the first number that I think's the most exciting is we've over 20 thousand developers actively engaged across our 20 projects. And so those aren't users, I mean the users is hundreds of thousands. But those are people who've actually found issues with it, made a documentation fix, or, you know, added some significant new feature in order to scratch the itch that they were having. We have 43 hundred people here in KubeCon CloudNativeCon. These events are always a great check-in. We were together in Seattle just a year and a half ago and had a thousand people, 15 hundred here a year ago, 42 hundred in Austin in six months. What we're very excited to do is head to Shanghai in November for our first ever KubeCon CloudNativeCon China, where we now have three platinum members there, three gold members, just a huge level of engagement and interest. >> John: And a big developer community there in China. >> Definitely. >> Lauren: Huge developer community there. >> And obviously the language issue is a barrier, and we're going to be investing real resources to have simultaneous interpretation for all of our talks and all of our tracks. >> John: In real time or post-- >> Definitely in real time. >> Primarily in English and then-- >> No, we can do it both ways, and so we're telling every speaker that they can present in Chinese or English, and then the question can be in Chinese or English. >> I love that. And it's a cost, but we think that that can really help bridge those two different parts. And then we'll be in Seattle in December 11th through 13th for our biggest ever event, KubeCon CloudNativeCon. Along that journey, we've been increasing members and so we had, I believe, 68 in Berlin a year ago, and we're at 216 today, and of those we have 52 members are end user community, who we're particularly proud of. >> Well, congratulations. I want to get those numbers out in the end, because last time we talked about they had more projects coming, coming so good job. Dee, I want to get your thoughts on the branding. Obviously, CNCF, Linux Foundation, separate group, part of the Linux Foundation. I noticed you got CloudNativeCon built into it, still. Branding, guys, thoughts in here, because there's more than Kubernetes here, right, these Cloud-natives, so what's the, are you going to keep one, both, dual branding, what's the thoughts? >> So, I would say the branding will be defined by the community and the fact that we have 20 different projects. I wouldn't put a very strong emphasis on just having one type of a branding associated with cloud-natives. One of the things that I'm thinking about is I've been talking to the community, and I think it's the developers and contributors, again, who's going to define the branding of cloud-native in general. And I think it's still something that we, as a community, have to figure it out. But, essentially, it's going to be beyond containers, orchestration. There's a lot of talks around Prometheus, we talked about Code OS, Redhead. So I think it's just, you know, a combination of how all these projects work together, in a way, it's going to define the branding strategy. So I think it's a little bit too early for me to make some comments on that. >> The best move is not to move at this point. (Dan laughs) I'm a big fan of cloud-native, but KubeCon... Little bit of a conflict with theCUBE, because people-- >> Oh yeah (laughs). >> But we're not going to put a trademark and bring it on you guys, yet. >> We appreciate that. >> We love the confusion. You're in good company, vice versa. Okay, serious question, Dan. I want to ask you, and Dee you can weigh in, too, on this. You're a student of the industry. You've also been around a while, you've seen many waves. For folks that-- >> I'm not that old. (Dan laughs) >> This is a new wave. You're younger than me. For the folks that are looking at this going, "Okay, the numbers are there. I'm seeing growth, "you've got my attention." And they're still trying to grok what this wave is about, this new modern era, cloud-native, KubeCon, Kubernetes. Certainly insiders kind of see it, and there's a lot of people who are kind of high-fiving each other, but, yet, it's not yet fully here. >> Dan: No. >> How important, how do you describe it to someone at a cocktail party or in the elevator. How do I explain to them the historic nature of what's happening. In your own words, what's happening? >> And it is tricky because, you know, at my kids' little leagues games, if we're just chatting about what we do, I sometimes describe it as the plumbing software for the internet. And it's not a bad metaphor; Linux has also been described that way, because plumbing is really important. Now, most of us never think about it, we don't have to worry about it, but if it breaks, we all get extremely upset. And, so, I do think of our sort of overarching method is to say that the whole way this software is being developed, being deployed, especially being pushed into production, is changing. And it's almost all for the positive, where, in the last decade, you had virtualization, but that was often through a proprietary solution that you were paying a tax for every new application you deployed. And the idea today, that you can pick this software platform and then deploy to any public, private, or hybrid cloud and avoid that lock-in, but get all these advantages in terms of higher velocity, lower cost, better efficiency, the slack of lock-in. Those are really amazing stories that lots of enterprises are just now hearing. There's this cliche of crossing the chasm. And I do think we can make the argument that 2018 is really the year that Kubernetes crosses the chasm outside of just innovators and into the early majority. >> You know, I think that's definitely the case. I've been walking around and talking to people and one of the things that I'm hearing is that folks are here to learn, and there are actually kind of beginners on Kubernetes and they actually want to learn more and their companies have sent them here in order to actually figure out if the technology is going to work back at their home company, which is, you know, ranges from tech companies to banks to different types of, you know, manufacturing and things along those lines. It's really a tremendous, you know, growth. What do you see in terms of end users? What types of end users are you seeing mostly? Or what kind of categories do those fall into? >> So we've 52 companies in our end user community now, and a number of them are up on the stage, including folks like Spotify I thought gave a really inspiring talk today about not just being a user of software, but how to engage with the community and contribute back and such. But the thing that I love is that there really is not sort of one industry that we're focused on or avoiding. So, finance who have tons of issues around regulation and such, they're much more likely to be deploying Kubernetes in their own infrastructure on bare-metal. But we have just fantastic stories. Bloomberg won our first ever end user award. We're very big on publishing, so to have not just "The New York Times", but Reddit and Wikipedia. And then a number of just very interesting consumer-oriented companies like a Pinterest or a Twitter, Spotify, and then the list sort of keeps going and going. >> Yeah, it's impressive, and I got to say, you know, you're agnostic as everyone needs plumbing, right, so plumbing is vertical agnostics. So, it's-- >> Well, in the cliche from Marc Andreessen, that software's eating the world is, again, somewhat true. That there really is not a company today that can avoid writing its own software. I mean, as I was saying in my keynote yesterday, that software tends to just be the tip of the pyramid that they're building on tons of open source. But, every company today needs to-- >> And your point of commercialization-friendly or membership organization, which you've built, is important. And I got to say, for the first time, we heard on theCUBE multiple times, not from the visionary to believe and drink the Kool-Aid, so to speak, like us and you guys and users and other commercial entities have used the word "de facto standard" to describe Kubernetes. Now, there's only a few times in history when you've heard that word. There's been inflection points. >> Dan: Linux, certainly one of them. (laughs) >> Yes so, again, when you have a de facto standard that's determined by the community, just really good things happen. So we're hopeful and we'll keep monitoring it. >> Yeah, and I do want to say that we take that responsibility very seriously. And so we have thing like our certified Kubernetes program about making sure the Kubernetes remains compatible between the carefulness that we do apply to new projects coming in, so we hope to live up to that. >> Great and, Dee, we talked yesterday, going to get that share that information with our team, happy to amplify it. There's a lot of people who want to learn, they want to discover and find out who to connect with, so a robust community. >> We really appreciate you going with us on this journey. >> It's been fun, we're going to hang along for the ride. We're going to be a sidecar, pun intended. (laughing) Well, theCUBE, Dan, thanks so much. Congratulations, executive director. >> Oh, thank you very much. >> Dee, good work. CNCF, here inside the cube at their event, here at KubeCon 2018, I'm John Furrier and Lauren Cooney. We'll be back with more live coverage. Stay with us after this short break. (techno music)

>> Narrator: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCube. Covering KubeCon and Cloud Native Con Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE exclusive coverage of CNCF. The Cloud Native Foundation, Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation of KubeCon 2018 here in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm John Furrier co-host of theCUBE here with analyst this week Lauren Cooney, who is the founder of Spark Labs, brand new start up that she founded to help companies bring innovation to Cloud Native, bring in all of her expertise to companies. Also, here on theCUBE, Lauren, great to have you this week. >> Thanks, John. >> Here in Europe, you've done so much work in the area of open source over the years. You've done, you were radical renegade, progressive, pushing PHP, bringing that to Microsoft. Doing a lot of great things, and now we're in a new modern era, and you're bringing that expertise, but you're also on the front lines of the new wave. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Cloud Native, so what's your take? What's your analysis? I mean, there's so much going on. You can't just retrofit old school open source, but it's got to build on the next generation. What's your thoughts? >> It has to build on the next generation, but you also have to look back at what has happened in the past. I think what is incredibly important to see is the mistakes that have been made in the past, so that people don't repeat them. One of the things that I'm seeing here and hearing a lot about is multiple distributions of Kubernetes out there, and when I hear multiple distributions I get worried that they're going the open sack route and there is going to be too many distributions out there. I would rather see one or two standard become kind of more standard and people building on top of that. I think it's the right way to go versus the splintering of the community. If the community is going to stay together you're going to have to narrow that down. >> What's the rationale for the distribution? Because, we've seen this before. Certainly at Hadoop, we saw people come out with distros and then abandon them, and then people coalesce around. >> Oh, they'll just die on the vine. I mean, fundamentally they just will die on the vine. It won't be, if it's not de facto already you're probably not going to get it de facto. >> John: What should companies do? Should they have a distro down. >> They should map to one of the key distros right now. They should, basically, use what is out there already. The one that they feel is right, and for their users, and for their company long term. >> I really enjoyed a couple of interviews we had yesterday. I want to just kind of revisit a couple of them. Tyler and Dirk, we had Tyler on from the new programming language ballerina that was launched. He's part of WSO2. Dirk is from Vien, where former early Linux guy, Linux foundation guy, worked with Linux tarballs in the early days. These guys know up the source. So you look at some of those leaders, and they say, "Hey, this is about the people" What are the things that we can draw from the past that are still relevant today? As the new formula of Kubernetes horizontally scalable cloud, Cloud Native thousands and, potentially, millions of micro-services coming online, new kinds of dynamic policy based infrastructure software, everything's coming. >> Service mesh, can't forget service mesh. >> Service meshes are going to be huge. What do we have to keep and preserve, and what is being built out that's new? >> Well, I think that you need to preserve the feeling of the community and what's going on there. I mean, these communities, actually it's communities not community, and these folks are coming along for the wave right? And I think it's important to make sure that people are aware of that, and there's lots of different personalities and lots of different goodness that can be brought to the table with that and the recognition of that. I also think that, for the most part, I do believe that this is one of the strongest communities out there, and it will continue to be for a number of years. >> I want to get your thoughts on something Ed Warnicke said from Cisco because he was very complimentary of the CNCF as are other people, and we have been complimentary as well about keeping everything tight to the core and allowing people to innovate. So you have, and we have commented on theCUBE and other KubeCons about this, and they've been doing it, which is let the innovation foster on the technical side as well as let people flex their business model opportunities. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Not so much just for the sake of commercialization because if you have too much commercialization you might stunt the community of growth organically so there's a balance, and I think CNCF has done a good job there, but they've kept the core of Kubernetes really tight which has allowed the de facto standard approach to be Kubernetes. That has created great opportunity, and people are super excited by that. What's your analysis of what happens next? What needs to happen? What's the momentum phase two of this? >> I think part of it is, how do you monetize, right? It's looking at, and this is part of what Spark Labs actually does, is we actually work with companies, some that are in the CNCF, and we work on them in different ways to monetize. Is it a services wrapper that's going to work? Is it additional features or functionality? The innovation comes with the technology, but with that technology you have to have the business model kind of in mind when you're building this out so you can figure out how to make money. As these smaller companies especially are looking to do and some of the bigger companies as well. >> I really think it's important for the CNCF and the Linux foundation and I know they're on this so its not critical analysis so much as it is more of an observation. You have a long tail of start ups and kind of a fat tail if you will, that are out there, and you have the big whales out there Google, Microsoft, Amazon, and others at the top. There was a comment in Austin, a snarky comment. I won't say by who, but I was looking at the logo board of the sponsors, and the guy said, "All those start-ups, they might be dead in 18 months" and it made me pause and say okay, that's an observation because they were brand new companies. >> Lauren: Mm hmm. >> That can't happen. We need to have a model of preservation for start-ups to experiment, to grow. This is something you're doing at Spark Labs so what's your view of this? And, reaction to the fact that this has to happen. What can we do as an industry and community to make sure the start ups-- >> I think the Linux foundation is doing one of the best things that can be done out there. Other open source foundations do too. Is they create the infrastructure so that folks have the support for marketing, or legal, or something along those lines, but so companies are allowed to innovate and then the Linux Foundation basically bets on the innovation and they bet on multiple innovations with multiple companies so they allow these companies to thrive while giving them the support inside of that. >> John: Yeah. >> And I think that's really helping a lot of these companies along. >> Well, Dave Collins always says is the membership organization, so no members no business model so I mean they're incented to make sure that, or hope, that these guys can survive, and certainly there's going to be some misfires and people will natural evolution. So what are you most excited about? I got to ask ya, I mean you're out on your own now. Congratulations, you started up. >> Thank you. >> Super exciting for you and I'm happy that you're going to go out on your own. What are some of the things you're excited about? What are you digging your teeth into, in terms of projects? Share what you're doing. >> I'm super excited about these companies that are coming out with true multi-cloud. So, allowing applications to run across multiple environments, public, private, et cetera. And we've been saying we can do it for a decade or something like that, but fundamentally that wasn't the case. You did have to re-write code. You did have to do a lot of underlying things to make that occur. One of the things that I'm super excited about is being able to take those companies and figure out how to actually get their product to market faster. Some of these guys are still in stealth. They need to move really fast if they want to catch up. I also love working with them on figuring out how to build out their teams, figuring out how to monetize. What are the next steps? What are the business plans, really, behind this? What is the one, three, five year model that they're going to use? I also love helping them get the money, of course. I think that's the fun part too. >> Yeah, it's always fun. Start-ups are great. What I'm excited about, I got to tell ya, I got to share with you just some personal feelings. I love this market right now because I've seen many waves of innovation and I think this wave of cloud native, whatever you want to call it this massive wave or sets of waves coming in and you got blockchain and other things going on behind it these centralized applications which I think is part of this set coming in, is that it's bigger than all the other waves combined and because there's so much value creation on the horizon and I think historically, this moment in time, historically is going to be a point we're going to look back and say the Kubernetes de facto standard galvanized a set of industry, a new card of players who are going to establish a new way methodology of doing things, and we're documenting it. Secondly, the role of community, as you pointed out, is so important here, and it's strong, but now we're living in a new age of digital. We're seeing formations of new kinds of community engagement digitally, not just the events, so I'm excited with theCUBE and what we're doing here, and what the Linux Foundation is doing because there's now going to be, potentially, exponential growth and acceleration around the combination of community. >> Yup. >> The community growth with this new modern commercialization on digital. >> It's definitely increasingly important, and you have to look at it from the technologies making it happen. The technology is looking at, edge computing is going to make digital happen really when you look at all the end points and things along those lines. And, I think that it's going to be great for everyone involved in that. >> Yeah, and we can learn a lot from looking at the Facebook example of how fake news swayed the election. How people were weaponizing content for bad things. There's also an opposite effect, we believe that you can do the for good. >> Lauren: Totally agree. >> I think digital will have a big role in the next generation community formations, community growth, short cuts to the truth, really that's what it's all about. It's about the people, so certainly we're going to be documenting it. Thanks for your commentary. >> Lauren: Definitely. >> Appreciate it, great to work with you this week. Day two of exclusive coverage, here at the Linux Foundation's Cloud Native Compute Foundation's, CNCF's KubeCon 2018. This is where Kubernetes, service mesh, Istio a lot of great projects, from a lot of smart people. We're here on the ground covering it live. Day two, we'll be back with more coverage. Stay with us for day two coverage, after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive live coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with my cohost this week, Lauren Cooney, and our next guest, Ed Warnicke, distinguished consulting engineer with Sysco Systems, CUBE alum. Great to see you, welcome back to theCUBE. >> Good to be back. >> So great developer action, end of day one. We're going to be here all day tomorrow. So day one's kind of coming into the books. Your thoughts on what's happening here. Different crowd but active. >> No extremely active. Actually, one of the things I've noticed, and this is sort of a subtle point when you've been around a lot of open source projects is you have a lot of people who are new to the Kubernetes community are coming in. And one of the things I found extremely heartening is, they've got a really organized approach to it. When they did their developer summit, they had an entire track for bringing new contributors on. They've just revamped their documentation to help people that are here, and they're finding better and better ways to articulate the things that people need to hear to help them make the leap to Cloud Native. 'Cause one of the underappreciated things about Cloud Native is that it's different from the move to Cloud 1.0 that we made a few years ago, is that Cloud Native is not a lift and shift behavior. You have to change the way you think about doing your job. >> And that's the global platform. This is not just a transformation process. It's a lifetime transformation. >> Absolutely. >> Huge personnel issue. People process technology, technology last one. >> Ed: Have you accepted Cloud Native into your heart? >> I have come to terms with my-- (Ed laughing) lift and shift problem that I have, and I'm now aware, self-aware of Cloud Native. >> The first step is to admit you have a problem. (John chuckling) The making amends to your infrastructure takes longer. >> I mean, look if-- >> And you would know, so. (laughing) Well, anyways. >> We're all working on it. >> So, I have a question for you here. As you were talking about how you're seeing a lot of new developers coming on in and things along those lines. I'm also running into a lot of new developers at the hotel, at dinner, just walking around and having discussions. Where do you see these guys coming from? I see them coming from banks, from large technology companies that are based in Europe. Where are you seeing these folks? >> So that ends up matching very closely with what I'm seeing as well. From all over the place. From people who finance large energy projects, right? From all areas of finance. Basically, all the sorts of people who have big compute problems are starting to turn up at the Cloud Native world because this is literally where you solve those problems. And I think that's part of what's driving the ecosystem is, the folks in Kubernetes made a number of incredibly intelligent decisions early on about how their architecture was built in terms of the modularity and expandability of it. And the result is that you get lots of people with lots of energy coming in saying, "I have a problem like this." There's an obvious well-worn path to try and put together a proposed solution for solving problems like this. And they engage with the community. One of the things that you're seeing just in terms of how the community grows itself is, they've got special interest groups, SIGs for various areas in Kubernetes. They've now had to spawn working groups that come under them. You're just seeing things like Kubernetes proposals for how you're going to do things coming to far. So there's a lot of the maturity process that you expect to deal with the scale of people who want to solve their problems this way. >> So you're actually not seeing sprawl. You're seeing highly organized groups coming together in a way that can make the platform more positive. >> Yeah, absolutely. Not only am I not seeing sprawl, but I'm starting to see highly intelligent things being said by the people who work at what we think of as the core of Kubernetes. So I've heard a number of people make the comment that they expect the Kubernetes core to actually shrink in terms of what it offers because the broader ecosystem is picking up so much of the slack. So this sort of core APIs of, this is what is Kubernetes without having picked out some options that meet your needs, is keeping itself very tight while having architected it in a way where you could have this broad ecosystem without the kinds of problems you sometimes get with sprawl in other communities. >> So whilst you want to get bigger, but you've got to get smaller to get bigger. >> In some sense, yeah. You have to decide what's really important to get right in the core and really nail it. >> What are they getting right, in your opinion? What's right about it that's going on? You mentioned some of the smart decisions that they're making. >> So, a couple of the things that they've gotten really, really right are our relentless focus on developer needs. So I see this particularly in networking, and I think we've talked about this before. Developers don't want to know about subnets. They don't want to know about L2 segments. They don't even want to know about IP addresses, frankly. What they really care about is two things. Reachability and isolation. Everybody can talk to everybody unless they decide you should be isolated. And service discovery and service running. Those are the only two things they care about, and wouldn't you know it! In Kubernetes, you have network policies that control the reachability and isolation and services that do services discovery and service routing for you. So they've absolutely nailed the fundamental developer needs. >> Made you pain point. >> Yeah. >> So what's your take on just the ecosystem. Obviously, we've commented, and this is always a dangerous game with communities, is logo farm, everyone's here, right? >> Yeah, I mean, they took the CNCF logos and probably, I think they broke them into three categories now. I'm not exactly sure what that means. >> John: A whole new sponsorship level for-- >> Architecture? I'm not sure. (John and Ed laughing) But, Ed, maybe you could provide some clarity here. >> Well, I mean, there is a certain risk in being loved to death, right? Kubernetes is full blown into what I will sometimes call crises of success, which is, you are succeeding so wildly that it's beginning to be a problem. And that's good to see. But I think you're starting to see certain categories of things that are emerging. And there was a good set of readouts from the various SIGs to Kubernetes yesterday in the developer summit. So you've got a bunch of stuff around networking. You have a bunch of things around storage. These are sort of fundamental infrastructure issues. But you have a bunch of things, literally, about how so we expand the Kubernetes platform. How does that work? How do we produce the constructs we need to solve the various problems that are arising, and those things are all sort of progressively moving forward. And we're getting to sort of the interesting point where the people who did the original turn of the APIs are being really blunt and honest saying, "Look! "These are the things we got right, "and these are the things we got wrong." And there's a lot to be said for having that level of honesty with yourself on stage in public, right? When you're the guy who wrote the code, it's unequivocally your mistake. And being able to stand up and say, "Look, "we got this one wrong." >> But that's the community trust that you have, and that's what makes the community. >> And that trust goes both ways. It's the trust of the community in that leader standing on the stage, but it's also the trust of that leader that we're going to move fast, we're going to do things right, but there's always a turn of the crank to do things better. And we got to be straightforward about that. >> And their self-awareness around the iteration is key. They're putting their egos at the door, checking it at the door, focusing on the advancement. I got to get your thoughts, from both of you guys, I want to ask you guys both a question. I know that you're doing a lot a work with some start-ups, and you with Cisco, the big company. What's interesting about this ecosystem is, the balance between the big players and the enablement for the small start-ups to be successful. We had a variety of start-ups here with news on theCUBE. This is the give get between sharing in projects where there's a balance and everyone can thrive and survive and grow together. Thoughts on that balance. Start-ups have needs, but they're not as big as the big guys. So what's your thoughts on-- >> Why don't you start, Ed. >> Well, to begin with, we can't do everything much as we would like to. Back to the self-honesty, you have to be honest with yourself about that. And nobody has a monopoly on the good ideas. And so you really have to engage with the ecosystem and figure out how different aspects of the problem knit together. I've had a lot of interesting conversations. I, personally, have some interest in what I sort of call unified IO. So converged networking storage. So I'm talking to a lot of folks who are doing storage stuff, lot a little start-ups that are doing really cool things with storage about things we can do to help them there from the network side, and they're excited about that, right? And it's that, that's the sort of open source spirit that makes it possible to have all these start-ups because, I'll be really frank, most of these start-ups, if they were having to try and build the thing themselves, they're simply not resourced to do it. But with so much support from the community in the broad, on a relatively thin start-up budget, you can move mountains. >> Yeah, if you tap the formula properly, that's the key. >> The start-ups are getting more and more sophisticate about tapping that formula because only... Getting a good product is only a very small part of the equation. You also have to get the connection with the community because you have to make sure, even if you're entirely self-interested, if you build a thing, there will be a thing in the open source that does that. And it is a fundamental truth in the modern era that 80% of the value or more of all software is its connection to everything else in the ecosystem. >> Lauren, I want to get your thoughts on this. You're doing this now as a new start-up, you're a founder of and running, but you've built programs. Modern architectures at play here. You're seeing microservices growth phenomenal. Cloud Native is just whole nother ball game, going to a whole nother level. As you're engaging out there, what are you seeing for this modern community formula playbook, whatever you want to call it. There's a way to do things now at a whole nother level that this is going. >> No, I-- >> Your thoughts. >> I definitely agree. I think the developer experience is really key, making it simple, making it just seamless, right? So folks don't have to wait to download something, or they don't have to wait for, you know. They can just click a couple buttons through a GUI and make it really, really simple, especially those on-boarding. What I see from the start-up side is a lot of... This is interesting because I think it's important. A lot of start-ups coming from companies that wouldn't allow them to do open source inside the companies. So they're leaving these larger companies, and they're doing start-ups. They're raising pretty good capital for seed rounds and A rounds. And I think, this is something that's pretty hot right now and we want to take a look at. And the VCs are definitely looking. >> What about the big companies that we all know, obviously Cisco, IBM, you see Amazon here. They have huge scale. Even Microsoft has had developer programs been successful over the years, we all know that. What's the modern tweak that they're making that you're seeing work? >> Oh, I think it's the small teams. Adrian was on here earlier talking about microservices and micro-teams, and I think he's absolutely right. You have to have teams that are building these services that are moving quite quickly and doing it in a way that's rapid enough to keep up or be ahead of the market. >> The micro-team point, I think, is actually really apropos because... This is going to sound very engineering propellor-head, but the management overhead gets to be quite steep when you try and do anything with big teams, right? So you got to have very loose coupling to everything else in the system, which is exactly what Cloud Native is about. And that's what you see not only in the start-ups but you see these sort of hybrid approaches emerge, where you have a start-up that has a small team and another start-up that has a small team that's nearby and a large company like Cisco that has a small team, and there's an interaction between all of these. And we're sort of operating as the growing up of this larger team completely across boundaries. It'll resolve actual user problems. >> I think it's a historic time. I think you guys are right on. This is such an exciting time for, if you're an engineer, software developer, or anyone in large-scale systems, and building applications is going to a whole nother level. Look at blockchain right around the corner, decentralized applications is coming soon. We won't go there in this interview 'cause it's KubeCon, but I got to get your take. What's your view so far of what's working here, hallway conversations you're having? What are some of the things going on here that someone who's not here might want to know about? >> I tend to be very focused on networking things, so the thing that I'm most excited about that's happening here is, the entire world seems to be getting meshy, right? So there's a huge excitement around service mesh and Istio, which I think is extremely well-placed. The fundamental thing that's really happening there is, they're progressively taking parts of the problem that you're not good at if you're writing a microservice, and they're pulling them out into a sidecar envoy so that you don't have to worry about service discovery and service routing. You don't have to worry about the policies for how you're going to figure out what things you do about getting to the next guy in the chain of the work. You don't have to worry about even things as simple as making sure that you respond to faults well, right? And there's a whole new set of ways that you think about problems in this space that's emerging there. One of the things that I'm actually really excited about that's also meshy is when you get to things like people who have less common network problems. So the operators with NFV, people who have more sophisticated network needs. We're starting to reimagine that stuff in the language of service mesh, right? So rather than trying to force all the legacy thinking about networking into Cloud Native where it's not wanted, we try and recast the problems we have into Cloud Native ways of thinking about them. And I think that ends up being intensely powerful. It's, frankly, almost overwhelming because there's so much conceptually going on in this space that you want to be able to draw on for the palette for the things that you're painting. >> Yeah, I mean, it's your point earlier about, and you were kind of joking but serious. This is a mind melt, you got to buy in to the philosophy of this new era of... (Ed laughing) Yeah, just kind of buy into, the Cloud Native is a global platform. It is a fundamental new thing. It's not just a methodology, it's a new way. >> It's a new way of thinking about things. The C in Cloud Native does not stand for container. Container is the smallest possible chunk of this. If you just slap all your applications into containers and try and do a lift and shift, you're going to fall on your face really hard. >> John: In what areas? Just like, what? >> Well, I'll give you a really simple example. Let's say that I have an application that I'm running in vApps, right? And I've got my big database VM. I've got my big web front VM. So I pick them up, I containerize them, I drop them into Kubernetes. So I've got one replica of my database VM and one replica of my web front VM, and that's going to break sometime in the first 24 hours. Because I need to, basically, pick them up and say, "OK, I need a bunch of replicas that are dynamically coming up for all of these things. I need the services to wire mesh them together." So for whatever reason, I lose some number of my replicas, that everything comes back up and goes forward and we never even notice, right? In some sense, the ideal situation is, you have a major bug in your code, right? Let's say you have a piece of code that's leaking memory and it dies every 24 hours. You want, if you think about it right and you deploy it 'cause you don't know you have this bug, you won't even notice that you screwed up that bug because the infrastructure will protect you from it. But if you just try and lift and shift, you're not going to have a happy experience because it's not going to work the way you expect it to. >> And then monitoring tools are getting better, too, and so if you're coming in on the other side you get that. Well, and thanks so much for the commentary. Great, great summary of the event. Any surprises here for you? Any ah-ha moments or revelations or epiphanies or any kind of surprises, good or bad or ugly? >> One of the things I was very impressed with is, I'm very impressed with what you can do with no code. I don't know if you saw that keynote this morning. >> Lauren: With Kelsey. >> In response to Dan Kohn's point about all the sort of total attack surface area. Kelsey got on stage and did the no code project, which has perfect security for whatever it is that you deploy it for. The fact that you can get on code, do something like that, move an entire audience of thousands of people, that's impressive. You don't see speakers who do that very often. That was, I wouldn't say shocking, but very much a pleasant surprise. And it speaks very much to the code of the community. The keynotes today were some of the best I've ever seen. I am not a keynote person, I seldom attend them. The keynotes today were extremely well-done. They had good energy and they were relevant. The walking through of the evolution of the community in brief punctuated explanations of what's going on and why they're important, I've never seen it done better. >> Yeah, they were hitting their marks well. Well, great, thanks for coming on, Ed. Great to see you. >> Yep. >> Thank you, Ed. >> This is commentary from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE coverage of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation, KubeCon 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, Lauren Cooney. Thanks for watching. Be right back. (electronic musical flourish)

>> Announcer: Live from Copenhagen, Denmark it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live here in Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018 Europe. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, my cohost this week. Our next guest Shiv Ramji, VP of Product at DigitalOcean, fast growing startup, now growing company. Congratulations, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you very much. >> So you guys got some hard news, you got product, Kubernetes product, and you guys just upgraded your status on CNCF. Let's jump into the product news real quick. What's the hard news? >> Yeah, so we just announced a Kubernetes product and service on our platform. And you know, we've had a lot of customers who've actually have been deploying Kubernetes on our platform, either themselves or through a managed provider. And a lot of customers, specifically businesses, have been asking us to provide native support for Kubernetes. So now this is native support for Kubernetes on the DigitalOcean platform. >> What does native support for customers mean specifically? Is it managing the workload down to, how, what level of granularity, I guess, is the question. Be specific about this support. >> Yeah, yeah. So essentially, typically developers who are deploying container workloads or Kubernetes workloads do this themselves. Now we make it very, very easy. So you can come into our platform and, within a few clicks, deploy a Kubernetes cluster with your typical integrations of monitoring or container registry and the Kubernetes dashboard. >> So you basically just select a couple features and they can go from there? It's just run a gun? >> It's just a few clicks and you are running. And the reason why we did that, and sort of the history of the company has really focused on removing friction for developers to get started. So we make it very, very easy from a product experience perspective, and also from a cost perspective. So we remove all the barriers for any team size to get started. And so that's why we've made the product very, very easy to use, very simple. And then we also plan to have a lot of tutorials around containers or containerizing an application and scaling in the microservices work. >> Lauren: That's great. >> Talk about the security aspect of it. It's been a big topic here. We were talking about it on our intro, Lauren and I, around, you know, that it's evolving in real time. Things are moving fast. Up front work needs to get done. How do your customers think about security in context of the Kubernetes offering? >> So we have a story for that. We are trying to essentially deploy some native integrations and some open source projects that help us do security scanning, so the goal is to essentially let our customers know of vulnerabilities that they may have based on the images that they are deploying. And you know, all of us are guilty of it. We will get a public container image and launch it, and then realize that there are some security flaws. So that's something we do want to address as we continue to roll out additional features throughout this year. >> I know we've interviewed you guys before, but I want you to just take a minute and explain, for the folks watching who might not know DigitalOcean, what you guys do, your value proposition, who you guys target, how you sell the product, what's the service, all that good stuff. Share a one minute update on what you guys do. >> So we are a New York based company that were founded in 2012 out of Techstars. And the value proposition is very simple in that we want to be the cloud platform for developers and their teams, so that they're focused on software that changes the world. And what that means is we take all the complexity in our product development process, essentially to make it very easy for a developer to go from concept or idea to production as fast as they can. Once they get there, we want to also enable them to scale reliably on our platform. And essentially, all of the features that we've launched have been driven by customer demand. So they tell us that, hey, we're scaling on your platform, we really need these additional features, and that's how we respond. So we're very developer-obsessed, and focus on that specific persona, and help them get to the cloud as quickly as possible. >> So you're solving the problem for the developer. Bait pain points are, what? >> So there are three. We think of learning as the first one, as a barrier to developers. So this is why we've built a library of tutorials. There are about 1400 plus tutorials. We get about three million unique visitors on our platform. And about 80% of our customers actually came from one of the tutorials. Right, so that's such a great source of >> Lauren: Documentation is so important. >> Documentation. So important. So that's our first one. The second one is building. This idea of let's remove all friction for you to go from zero, essentially an idea, to production as fast as possible. So there're two things we do there. One, we try to make the product very simple and easy to use. And two, we are very price competitive. So we have a very competitive price to performance ratio in the market, with the idea that, if you want to keep your total cost of operations as low as possible. And so, that's another reason why developers, teams, and also businesses are now, we are in their consideration set, because they're like, well developers love this product, and I can get a cost benefit. Why would I not do that? And then the last one is scaling, which is once you're growing your application, you're going to need ability to scale and support. And so we provide free support to all of our customers, regardless of the size of your workload or size of customer or business. And I think that's a very important value proposition for us. >> So who do you compete against? Like, who are a couple of your competitors? >> So, the best way to answer that is to see, so we go to our customers and see who they compare us with. And typically we are compared against AWS and Google. >> Lauren: Okay, okay. >> And so, they are the ones who will come to us and say, "Hey, we're about to launch an app, or we're considering moving our workloads, you know, here's what our setup looks like in Google or AWS. You know, can you provide us similar capabilities?" And a lot of the times tends to be, you know, our developers already love you. If you have this capabilities and features set, we would love to move our workloads. >> Well I think you've got a tremendous amount of active developers as well, correct? >> Yes, yes. >> So, and you're growing that exponentially. What is, kind of your growth look like, year over year? >> Yeah, so last year we signed the one millionth developer on our platform. There's essentially one million developers that have created an account on our platform. And we sometimes have developers who come in and out of our platforms, if you're done with your project, right, if you're a student. But we have about half a million active developers on our platform, and growing rapidly. And we also foster a community which is growing tremendously. So we've got about three and a half million active developers in our communities, reading articles, and going through Q&A, and posting very interesting projects. >> Those are some great numbers. I mean, they're up there with Salesforce growth. So that's tremendous. >> And also the other news is you're upgrading your membership. Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF. Talk about that dynamic, why? Size, did you fall into new bucket or you guys are increasing your participation? What's the news? >> Yeah, I mean, we were founded really on this idea of we believe in helping the community, and so free and open source software is what we've built our business on. And so, as we got active with Kubernetes ourselves, and we've been using Kubernetes for two years internally, so we have lots of lessons of our own. And as we were bringing this product to market, it was only the right, it was the right time for us to really upgrade our membership to gold with the CNCF, with the goal of getting to their platinum level where we can contribute to standards and bodies and really influence the evolution of all the tooling around containers and microservices. So, it was the right, the timing was right, and it's the right evolution of us continuing to support the community. >> Making some good profit, contribute that, and help out CNCF. >> Shiven: Absolutely. >> As the VP of Product, you have the keys to the kingdom as they say, in the product management world. (laughing) You got to balance engineering management with product, and you got to look to the market for the, you know, the needs of the customers, and of course they're helping you. Big time developers aren't afraid to share their opinion of what they need. >> Shiven: Never. >> Pain points, that's a good, good, good, good job there. What is on the road map for you? What's next? How are you looking at short, mid, long-term evolution of DigitalOcean's product strategy? >> Yeah, so I'll break it down in three different areas. The first part is really having a core complete feature set for a modern application that's being built in the cloud. So this is where, over the last 12 months, we've developed, we've deployed, developed and deployed load balancers, cloud firewalls, object storage, block storage, a new control panel experience, and a bunch of networking features that we have released. And so, we have some new features coming this year, which allow you to do, you know, the VPC feature, specifically, that allows businesses to have private networking and peering. That's been a top requested feature, so that's something that's going to come later this year to round out our core platform. And then, beyond that, we have two or three different things that we're doing. So the first category is just having a better developer experience. So this is everything from the experience you have when you are launching any cloud resource, whether it's for a control panel, or API, or CLI. So, continue to make that frictionless. So we have a few updates coming there to our control panel, improvements to our API, and adding a bunch of integrations so that, if you're using different products to manage your cloud infrastructure, we make that very, very easy. The second thing is marketplaces. So, a lot of, as you know, lots of other providers have marketplaces and different versions of marketplaces. A lot of our customers and vendors are now coming to us saying, "You have a really big audience and customer base. We really want to integrate our products so we can make it easy for them to spin up those resources." So marketplaces is the second large category that we're working on later this year. We'll have a lot of updates on that. And the third one is tied to developer experience, but it's essentially the Kubernetes product that we're launching. We also have plans to enable a marketplace-like integrations, and a lot of the CICD integrations, so that once you're up and running with your cluster, you got to get your CICD pipelines and tooling working, so that's an area. >> I want to ask you about multicloud, and where you guys are at with multicloud, and kind of connecting to the other cloud providers that are competitors, but, you know, your users are going to want to use as well as your solution. >> Yeah, this is where I think Kubernetes fits really, really well with the multicloud story for us, which is why, sort of, why now for us. If your workloads are in Kubernetes, and this is why we are going to support all of the latest community versions that are available. If your workloads are in Kubernetes, it becomes very easy for you to move those over to our platform, and so. I think we're going to see a combination of sometimes customers will have split workloads, sometimes they'll run different types of workloads in our platform, and so I think Kubernetes really opens up that possibility >> Lauren: That's great. To do that. There's still some more tooling to be done, but that's essentially where we're at. >> How many employees you guys have now? What's the number? >> We are roughly north of 400. So still very small. >> Well, congratulations. You guys are a growing company. Great to have you on theCUBE. Thanks for sharing the news. >> Thank you very much. >> Absolutely. >> Great job. DigitalOcean. You know, hot startup, growing rapidly, I'm sure they're hiring like crazy. >> We are. >> So go check 'em out. The news here at KubeCon is positive industry. Rising tide floats all boats. That's a philosophy we have seen on theCUBE and great ecosystems, of course that's happening here. More live coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark after this short break. Stay with us. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer.: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, and welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018 in Europe, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Dirk Hohndel, Vice President, Chief Open Source Officer for VMware. Great to see you. CUBE alumni, welcome back. >> Thank you, good to be here. >> So you had a keynote, smashing success today on stage, about open source, all five minutes of it, congratulations. (laughing) Take a minute to explain, I have some specific questions on VMWare, office of the CTO, how you guys are working on some really interesting things. But first, take a minute to explain, the VMware approach to open source that you're leading. What's the architecture of it, how is it organized, can you take a minute to explain-- >> Sure. >> The VMware? >> So we use open source components in literally every single one of our products, and we have a structure where each of the BUs is engaged in open source in the components that they're using, in projects that are related to the business, and they have a central organization that sits in the office of the CTO that I run, so the open source program office, which has much more of a focus of pure open source work. Focused on up stream, focus on the problems that the community sees much more than something that is product driven. I also own the whole compliance work that everyone needs to do to make sure that you follow the licenses and all that. But, fundamentally the balance between having the central organization that has maybe the center of expertise and has people who do open source and nothing but open source, and on the other hand bringing that expertise into the BU. Bring it closer to the products, and engaging across the company. We have more than 7,000 software engineers across the company and we want every single one of them to be mindful and understanding of how open source works, and how we are engaged in that space. >> And how many people, just some stats, can you share, by the numbers, how many people are on the teams, R&D, there's also in the CTO office. How many folks are on your team roughly speaking? >> So I have currently, I want to say, this is quick, 20 some odd people under me, but across the company it's a lot more. There are several hundred people who are, in their daily work engaged with open source all the time. >> That's great. >> So your team is centralized in the business units. Go ahead. >> No, that's great. I was going to say, what is it look like for people that want to contribute code that aren't on your team? Is there a process that's pretty easy to go through? Or can they just put it on GitHub? We would all like that but. >> Yeah so, we have an internal tool that we've developed they simply can request to contribute to an existing project and it goes through a very quick review and depending on the topic, this is typically a two day turnaround time, where they get approval from the BU VP and from me. And if you want to open source a project, so if you have something internal that you've done, that you want to bring out into the community, it's little more complicated with naming, and branding and what not. A lot more people need to nod basically, but it still takes usually a couple of weeks-- >> Yeah. >> And it goes through. But it's an automated process, it's driven by a PM out of my organization. >> That's great. >> And it tries to make it really, really easy. One of my big goals joining VMware was to remove friction out of this process, and to encourage people to engage with the projects that are out there, but also for us to bring software into the open that we've developed, for example internal tools, and make them useful for other people. >> Definitely, I think that's great. >> You mentioned open source models about people, can you elaborate on that because I think this is an important point, we were talking before we came on, about that role of people. >> Well, so open source is... People think of this as a software development methodology, and it is, but fundamentally it's a social phenomenon. It's this experiment of saying the way we do our work is based on relationships. It's based on trust. So I trust you that you've reviewed this code and I take that code that you've reviewed. I know that you are the expert in this area so if I make changes in this area I'll send them to you and ask for your review. It's all about relationships. And these relationships are between people, not between companies. So in so many ways, the role travels with the person, and not with the company. And we have seen this in many cases, where people move from company to company, but the work, their influence, the role comes with them. So it's very much empowering for the engineers. But it's also from a purely human perspective, an engagement where, it's not just about the code that you write, but it's about how you treat people. How you engage with them. This is why conferences like this are so wonderful. There are 4,000 people here, 4,500 people here, and you meet people whom, with whom you've been emailing for years. And this social aspect of this for an introvert like myself, is at the same time a little scary, but also it's super exciting because it is people who are driving this industry. >> John: The face to face connections really make a difference. >> I think it's the community. I mean the community always comes first, I think. I will say this, you build a community, you don't launch one, and I think that's absolutely critical. And I think, can you talk about some of the changes in mentality that you're working with across VMware right now with getting that community first sort of thing moving? >> Well, so, I mean, VMware is a very engineering centric organization. We are driven, we're founded by engineers and driven by engineers, I mean Pat Gelsinger our CEO was an engineer, and so the underlying ethos of contribution and of trying to fix problems and if you see something you go and fix it, that is something that has always been there at VMware, but what I've been trying to bring in to VMware is much more of an up-stream focus. An understanding of, it's not just important that you understand the technology well and you use it well, but also that you contribute back. And that you are seen as playing a big role in this industry. And if you look at the impact that VMware has had in the broader open source community, and how we have shifted our approach to being part of this over the last two years, I think it's been extremely successful. And you can see this with our footprint here, how many talks we have here, and how much presence we have here. I think there's 70 VMware employees at KubeCon this year. >> That's great. >> It's now cultural, it's a Tier One, I'll say Tier One role, not Tier Two when we were growing up in the industry, but part of the business software define, infrastructure, software is taking over the world as Mark Andress said is happening. Open source is there powering it. So I have to ask you the question, that would be on my mind if I'm thinking about going all in as a company, if I'm an enterprise. Hey, you know what, I like this approach. I'm going to go all in. Complete commitment. What's the best practice, what's your advice, because this is something people are talking about doing not just putting a toe in the water going all in and committing to an open source business model with their company. What's your advice for shepherding that process, cultural ethos. What's your take? >> It starts with language. It starts with how you talk about what you're doing. I hear a lot of people saying things like, "Oh, I consume open source," well it bugs me because you consume a commodity. You consume electricity, you don't care where it comes from it's just a plug in the wall. Whatever, right? Open source is always around, about the people. It's always about how do people work. How do they think about security, about releases, about maintenance? What's their work flow? And you can't just consume an open source component, you need to engage with them, you need to understand how their work affects your work. And so my recommendation is always, start with your own language. Start with the approach that you're taking when you're talking about all this. And then figure out, where are you using it, how are you using it, what are the changes that you've made to the components that you're using? How about contributing those changes back? It's a very simple first step to engage. And it's actually a step that makes total business sense because if you have your private branches, your private patches, the next time the upstream project goes through a new release, you need to port these changes, that costs money. So it's actually cheaper to simply contribute them back and have them maintained by the project. And you can use upstream, or you have a minimum set of small adjustments that don't make sense to return to the community. And this is really how you get your toe into the water. Because now you're not just a user of this, you're engaged, you're a contributor. >> You're operationalizing your business. >> Yes, you are, and then the next step is thinking about what of my internal tool sets that maybe are not my core product, but are the things that we build to build the product as part of our workflow. What of those could be used for the product community? So at VMware, for example, we built a software design system, it's called Clarity, and you can use it to create angular-based JavaScript UIs. So we use this for all of our products. We made this tool an open source tool and it's massively successful project, has weekly releases, has a ton of users, a very very active community. And it's one of those cases where you take something that isn't the core of your business, but you are earning your chops in the community. And take it one step at a time and broaden-- >> John: That's the trust relationship you're building? >> That is very much this trust relationship. And it's this track record that you're building of not only doing something, oh here's this old product and I'll open source it and then I walk away. So we call this dump and run right? You throw it over the wall, it's now open source and then you say, customer you're now on your own because it's now open source. >> It's abandoned no one's paying attention. >> Yeah that's a terrible model, but a very good model is one where you think about creating these relationships and creating a track record of being there every week, looking at the bug reports, looking at the issues, looking at the pull requests, and engaging with the people out there. And the value that this creates, the amount of value that you're getting from your outside contributor, very quickly outweighs the additional cost that it takes to get this IP clean and released and all that. >> And then there is documentation and documentation is a tremendous amount of heavy lifting on the inside of a company. But if you can spread it over an open source product that you have, it's great. And it's a really good way for people to start out in open source, I find. >> And you just said open source product, so this one of those things-- >> Project. >> Where, yeah. This is something that I think is where we come back to language being so important. I always talk to the folks internally about this distinction. What is the open source project? What is it, what the community does, what lives on GitHub or what lives in the public side of this? And then what is your product that is based on this project? And in your thinking always keep these two separate. Understand that everything that happens in the project is what is publicly available and what is done in conjunction with your community. >> John: With the team. >> Versus your product which focuses on how does the customer use this. Because open source projects, in and of themselves, are typically built by developers for developers. And the end user has actually different needs. And this is where the business model come in and that's kind of closing the question that you just asked, because the value that the company is providing this space is the understanding of the customer needs. And is the ability to take something that is creating enormous and impressive innovation, which is the community, and taking this to a place where then someone can use it in production. Where it's scales, where it's secure, where it has Day-One and Day-Two operationalization, where it has strong documentation. There is a support number you can call. All these things that a customer is-- >> John: Needs. >> Needs and that an open source project by themselves is unlikely to create. >> It's like putting money in the bank. You can't just take money out of the bank. You've got to deposit good will. The give-get is part of that project and you're saying make the product focus on the customer problems. >> Dirk: Absolutely. >> My question is are you talking kind of about a services wrapper that you put around it and maybe a couple of additional features? In part, or what are you actually kind of, just to get to the crux of it. >> So there are many different ways, many different business models around open source. For us, we are still an enterprise software company. So open source generally provides components of what we do. It may be the API that the customer is asking for. So today, Kubernetes is a set of APIs a lot of people want to use as their way to provide a container service for the orchestration, right? But what is the underlying infrastructure? How do you generate a persistent storage? A flexible networking infrastructure that can grow and shrink as your work loads grow and shrink? How do you manage your individual nodes? How do you deal with internal billings so that you can bill your data center time to your departments? And all these operational aspects are things that we're trying to solve with our products. But we offer to the customer an open source based API. So that's where our business value lies fundamentally. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Communities are a concept that's premised on create value before you capture it. And I think what you're saying is, if you have a project, you better bring something to the table, not just distract. It's a taker. >> Yes. >> If you're just taking all the time, it's not a good trust relationship building, that's what I hear you saying. >> And you will also not be successful because your customer needs, as your customers are coming to you and they're running into issues, you need to be able to address those issues. Which means you need to be productive part of that community. You need to have the in-depth understanding to then help them. >> I've seen people do things like they couldn't get a business model going so they say, "Oh we're just going to open source it, "and hope that a miracle happens." And it's not really that way. I mean, people do open source for the right reasons to bring code to the table, but you're saying nurturing that community project is a for all kind of thing. >> Fundamentally, I always think there are so many brilliant developers in these communities. And if you go into these communities with the assumption that you can learn something from the other developers, you can learn something from the other companies that are involved. And then you can contribute the areas where you are strong, where you have your core knowledge. And you wrap this into a product that provides value for your customers, everyone wins. Your customer wins, >> That a good way-- >> Your community wins, you win. >> So if you're out there thinking about it think about your core competency and what you want to open source, you got a good fit. Okay what's new for you? You diving, you're an avid scuba diver. We talked about that last time you were on theCUBE. What's new with you? >> I haven't been diving. Actually I drove up to Hootsbor to dive in 48 degrees Fahrenheit water, because I haven't been in the water for so long. My next trip is going to be Okinava which is a lot warmer than that. No, the work keeps me busy, so not as much scuba diving as I would want. But we've been very busy. We've been pushing a lot more contributions to a much larger set of projects. My team has been growing, so we've been actively hiring. And we're developing a second generation, internal set of processes to deal with all of these questions you asked about earlier, of how to make sure that you know where you contribute, how you contribute, which components you use. So we're revamping our internal processes around this. >> Lauren: That's great >> And it's keeping us very busy, but I have to say, especially, if you look at this conference here, the success is really very rewarding. We have so many more people actively engaged, and recognized in the community as key contributors. It's been a very very successful year since last we talked. >> It's awesome. Well thanks for your leadership at VMware. We love the KubeCon, we love the Linux Foundation, they've done amazing work. CNCF is just exploded with success and it's a result of, the trend is everyone's friend, which is cloud computing and software defined everything so, VMware. Thanks for coming out Dirk, appreciate it. Live coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Lauren Cooney co-hosting with me this week. And we'll be back with more, stay with us after this short break. (energetic music)

>> Announcer: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to the live CUBE coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark, for KubeCon 2018, Kubernetes European conference. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, my co-host Lauren Cooney here with Adrian Cockcroft who is the Vice President of Cloud Architecture and Strategy for Amazon Web Services, AWS. CUBE alumni, great to see you, a legend in the industry, great to have you on board today. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks very much. >> Quick update, Amazon, we were at AWS Summit recently, I was at re:Invent last year, it gets bigger and bigger just continue to grow. Congratulations on successful great earnings. You guys posted last week, just continuing to show the scale and leverage that the cloud has. So, again, nothing really new here, cloud is winning and the model of choice. So you guys are doing a great job, so congratulations. Open source, you're handling a lot of that now. This community here, is all about driving cloud standards. >> Adrian: Yeah. >> Your guys position on that is? Standards are great, you do what customers want, as Andy Jassy always says, what's the update? I mean, what's new since Austin last year? >> Yeah, well, it's been great to be back on had a great video of us talking at Austin, it's been very helpful to get the message out of what we're doing in containers and what the open source team that I lead has been up to. It's been very nice. Since then we've done quite a lot. We were talking about doing things then, which we've now actually done and delivered on. We're getting closer to getting our Kubernetes service out, EKS. We hired Bob Wise, he started with us in January, he's the general manager of EKS. Some of you may know Bob has been working with Kubernetes since the early days. He was on the CNCF board before he joined us. He's working very hard, they have a team cranking away on all the things we need to do to get the EKS service out. So that's been major focus, just get it out. We have a lot of people signed up for the preview. Huge interest, we're onboarding a lot of people every week, and we're getting good feedback from people. We have demos of it in the booth here this week. >> So you guys are very customer-centric, following you guys closely as you know. What's the feedback that you're hearing and what are you guys ingesting from an intelligence standpoint from the field. Obviously, a new constituent, not new, but a major constituent is open source communities, as well as paying enterprise customers? What's the feedback? What are you hearing? I would say beyond tire kicking, there's general interest in what Kubernetes has enabled. What's Amazon's view of that? >> Yeah, well, open source in general is always getting a larger slice of what people want to do. Generally, people are trying to get off of their enterprise solutions and evolving into an open source space and then you kind of evolve from that into buying it as a service. So that's kind of the evolution from one trend, custom or enterprise software, to open source to as a service. And we're standing up all of these tools as a service to make them easier to consume for people. Just, everybody's happy to do that. What I'm hearing from customers is that that's what they're looking for. They want it to be easy to use, they want it to scale, they want it to be reliable and work, and that's what we're good at doing. And then they want to track the latest moves in the industry and run with the latest technologies and that's what Kubernetes and the CNCF is doing, gathering together a lot of technologies. Building the community around it, just able to move faster than we'd move on our own. We're leveraging all of those things into what we're doing. >> And the status of EKS right now is in preview? And the estimated timetable for GA? >> In the next few months. >> Next few months. >> You know, get it out then right now it's running in Oregon, in our Oregon data center, so the previews are all happening there. That gets us our initial thing and then everyone go okay, we want to in our other regions, so we have to do that. So another service we have is Fargate, which is basically say just here's a container, I want to run it, you don't have to declare a node or an instance to run it first. We launched that at re:Invent, that's already in production obviously, we just rolled that out to four regions. That's in Virginia, Oregon, Dublin and Ohio right now. A huge interest in Fargate, it lets you simplify your deployments a little bit. We just posted a new blog post that we have an open source blog, you can find if you want to keep up with what's going on with the open source team at AWS. Just another post this morning and it's a first pass at getting Fargate to work with Kubernetes using Virtual Kubelet which is a project that was kicked off by, it's an experimental project, not part of the core Kubernetes system. But it's running on the side. It's something that Microsoft came up with a little while ago. So we now have, we're working with them. We did a pull request, they accepted it, so that team and AWS and a few other customers and other people in the community, working together to provide you a way to start up Fargate as the underlying layer for provisioning containers underneath Kubernetes as the API for doing you know the management of that. >> So who do you work with mostly when you're working in open source? Who do you partner with? What communities are you engaging with in particular? >> It's all over. >> All over? >> Wherever the communities are we're engaging with them. >> Lauren: Okay, any particular ones that stand out? >> Other than CNCF, we have a lot of engagement with Apache Hadoop ecosystem. A lot of work in data science, there's many, many projects in that space. In AI and machine learning, we've sponsored, we've spend a lot of time working with Apache MXNet, we were also working off with TensorFlow by Torch and Caffe and there's a lot, those are all open source frameworks so there's lots of contributions there. In the serverless arena, we have our own SAM service application model. We've been open sourcing more of that recently ourselves and we're working with various other people. Across these different groups there's different conferences you go to, there's different things we do. We just sponsored Rails Conference. My team sponsors and manages most of the open source conference events we go to now. We just did RAILCON, we're doing a Rust conference, soon I think, there's Python conferences. I forget when all these are. There's a massive calendar of conferences that we're supporting. >> Make sure you email us that that list, we're interested actually in looking at what the news and action is. >> So the language ones, AltCon's our flagship one, we'll be top-level sponsor there. When we get to the U.S., CubeCon in Seattle, it's right there, it's two weeks after re:Invent. It's going to be much easier to manage. When we go to re:Invent it's like everyone just wants to take that week off, right. We got a week for everyone to recover and then it's in the hometown. >> You still have that look in your eyes when we interviewed you in Austin you came down, we both were pretty exhausted after re:Invent. >> Yeah, so we announced a bunch of things on Wednesday and Thursday and I had to turn it into a keynote by Tuesday and get everyone to agree. That's what was going on, that was very compressed. We have more time and all of the engineering teams that really want to be at an event like this, were right in the hometown for a lot. >> What's it like workin' at Amazon, I got to ask you it since you brought it up. I mean and you guys run hard at Amazon, you're releasing stuff with a pace that's unbelievable. I mean, I get blown away every year. Almost seems like, inhuman that that you guys can run at that pace. And earnings, obviously, the business results speak for themselves, what's it like there? I mean, you put your running shoes on, you run a marathon every day. >> It's lots of small teams working relatively independently and that scales and that's something other engineering organizations have trouble with. They build hierarchies that slow down. We have a really good engineering culture where every time you start a new team, it runs at its own speed. We've shown that as we add more and more resources, more teams, they are just executing. In fact, their accelerated, they're building on top of other things. We get to build higher and higher level abstractions to layer into. Just getting easier and easier to build things. We're accelerating our pace of innovation there's no slowing down. >> I was telling Jassy they're going to write a Harvard Business School case study on a lot of the management practices, but certainly the impact on the business side with the model that you guys do. But I got to ask you, on the momentum side, super impressed with SageMaker. I predicted on theCUBE at AWS Summit that that will be the fastest growing service. It will overtake Aurora, I think that is currently on stage, presented as the fastest growing service. SageMaker is really popular. Updates there, its role in the community. Obviously, Kubernete's a good fit for orchestrating things. We heard about CubeFlow, is an interesting model. What's going on with SageMaker how is it interplaying with Kubernetes? >> People that want to run, if you're running on-premise, cluster of GPU enabled machines then CubeFlow is a great way of doing that. You're on TensorFlow, that manages your cluster, you run CubeFlow on top. SageMaker is running at very low scale and like a lot of things we do at AWS, what you need to run an individual cluster for any one customer is different from running a multi-tenant service. SageMaker sits on top of ECS and it's now one of the largest generators of traffic to ECS which is Amazon's horizontally scaled, multi-tenant, cluster management system, which is now doing hundreds of millions of container launches a week. That is continuing to grow. We see Kubernetes as it's a more portable abstraction. It has some more, different layers of API's and a big community around it. But for the heavy lifting of running tens of thousands of containers in for a single application, we're still at the level where ECS does that every day and Kubernetes that's kind of the extreme case, where a few people are pushing it. It'll gradually grow scale. >> It's evolution. >> There's an evolution here. But the interesting things are, we're starting to get some convergence on some of the interfaces. Like the interfacing at CNA, CNA is the way you do networking on containers and there is one way of doing that, that is shared by everybody through CNA. EKS uses it, BCS uses it and Kubernetes uses it. >> And the impact of customers is what for that? What's the impact? >> It means the networking structures you want to set up will be the same. And the capabilities and the interfaces. But what happens on AWS is because it has a direct plug-in, you can hook it up to our accelerated networking infrastructure. So, AWS's instances right now, we've offloaded most of the network traffic processing. You're running 25 gigabits of traffic, that's quite a lot of work even for a big CPU, but it's handled by the the Nitro plug-in architecture we have, this in our latest instance type. So if you talked a bit about that at re:Invent but what you're getting is enormous, complete hypervisor offload at the core machine level. You get to use that accelerated networking. You're plugging into that interface. But that, if you want to have a huge number of containers on a machine and you're not really trying to drive very high throughput, then you can use Calico and we support that as well. So, multiple different ways but all through the same thing, the same plug-ins on both. >> System portability. You mentioned some stats, what's the numbers you mentioned? How many containers you're launching a week, hundreds of thousands? On ECS, our container platform that's been out for a few years, so hundreds of millions a week. It's really growing very fast. The containers are taking off everywhere. >> Microservices growth is, again that's the architecture. As architecture is a big part of the conversation what's your dialogue with customers? Because the modern software architecture in cloud, looks a lot different than what it was in the three layered approach that used to be the web stack. >> Yeah, and I think to add to that, you know we were just talking to folks about how in large enterprise organizations, you're still finding groups that do waterfall development. How are you working to kind of bring these customers and these developers into the future, per se? >> Yeah, that's actually, I spend about half my time managing the open source team and recruiting. The other half is talking to customers about this topic. I spend my time traveling around the world, talking at summits and events like this and meeting with customers. There's lots of different problems slowing people down. I think you see three phases of adoption of cloud, in general. One is just speed. I want to get something done quickly, I have a business need, I want to do it. I want machines in minutes instead of months, right, and that speeds everything up so you get something done quickly. The second phase is where you're starting to do stuff at scale and that's where you need cloud native. You really need to have elastic services, you can scale down as well as up, otherwise, you just end up with a lot of idle machines that cost you too much and it's not giving you the flexibility. The third phase we're getting into is complete data center shutdown. If you look at investing in a new data center or data center refresh or just opening an AWS account, it really doesn't make sense nowadays. We're seeing lots of large enterprises either considering it or well into it. Some are a long way into this. When you shut down the data center all of the backend core infrastructure starts coming out. So we're starting to see sort of mainframe replacement and the really critical business systems being replaced. Those are the interesting conversations, that's one of the areas that I'm particularly interested in right now and it's leading into this other buzzword, if you like, called chaos engineering. Which is sort of the, think of it as the availability model for cloud native and microservices. We're just starting a working group at CNCF around chaos engineering, is being started this week. So you can get a bit involved in how we can build some standards. >> That's going to be at Stanford? >> It's here, I mean it's a working group. >> Okay, online. >> The CNCF working group, they are wherever the people are, right. >> So, what is that conversation when you talk about that mainframe kind of conversation or shut down data centers to the cloud. What is the key thing that you promote, up front, that needs to get done by the by the customer? I mean, obviously you have the pillars, the key pillars, but you think about microservices it's a global platform, it's not a lift and shift situation, kind of is, it shut down, but I mean not at that scale. But, security, identity, authentication, there's no perimeter so you know microservices, potentially going to scale. What are the things that you promote upfront, that they have to do up front. What are the up front, table stake decisions? >> For management level, the real problem is people problems. And it's a technology problem somewhere down in the weeds. Really, if you don't get the people structures right then you'll spend forever going through these migrations. So if you sort of bite the bullet and do the reorganization that's needed first and get the right people in the right place, then you move much faster through it. I say a lot of the time, we're way upstream of picking a technology, it's much more about understanding the sort of DevOps, Agile and the organizational structures for these more cellular based organizations, you know, AWS is a great example of that. Netflix are another good example of that. Capital One is becoming a good example of that too. In banking, they're going much faster because they've already gone through that. >> So they're taking the Amazon model, small teams. Is that your general recommendation? What's your general recommendation? >> Well, this is the whole point of microservices, is that they're built by these small teams. It's called Conway's law, which says that the code will end up looking like the team, the org structure that built it. So, if you set up a lots of small teams, you will end up with microservices. That's just the way it works, right. If you try to take your existing siloed architecture with your long waterfall things, it's very hard not to build a monolith. Getting the org structure done first is right. Then we get into kind of the landing zone thing. You could spend years just debating what your architecture should be and some people have and then every year they come back, and it's changing faster than they can decide what to do. That's another kind of like analysis paralysis mode you see some larger enterprises in. I always think just do it. What's the standard best practice, layout my accounts like this, my networks like this, my structures we call it landing zone. We get somebody up to speed incredibly quickly and it's the beaten path. We're starting to build automation around these on boarding things, we're just getting stuff going. >> That's great. >> Yeah, and then going back to the sort of chaos engineering kind of idea, one of the first things I should think you should put into this infrastructure is the disaster recovery automation. Because if that gets there before the apps do, then the apps learn to live with the chaos monkeys and things like that. Really, one of the first apps we installed at Netflix was Chaos Monkey. It wasn't added later, it was there when you arrived. Your app had to survive the chaos that was in the system. So, think of that as, it used to be disaster recovery was incredibly expensive, hard to build, custom and very difficult to test. People very rarely run through their disaster recovery testing data center fail over, but if you build it in on day one, you can build it automated. I think Kubernetes is particularly interesting because the API's to do that automation are there. So we're looking at automating injecting failure at the Kubernetes level and also injecting into the underlying machines that are running Good Maze, like attacking the control plane to make sure that the control plane recovery works. I think there's a lot we can do there to automate it and make it into a low-cost, productized, safe, reliable thing, that you do a lot. Rather than being something that everyone's scared of doing that. >> Or they bolted on after they make decisions and the retrofit, pre-existing conditions into a disaster recovery. Which is chaotic in and of itself. >> So, get the org chart right and then actually get the disaster recovery patterns. If you need something highly available, do that first, before the apps turn up. >> Adrian, thanks for coming on, chaos engineering, congratulations and again, we know you know a little about Netflix, you know that environment, and been big Amazon customer. Congratulations on your success, looking forward to keeping in touch. Thanks for coming on and sharing the AWS perspective on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Lauren Cooney live in Denmark for KubeCon 2018 part of the CNC at the Cloud Native Compute Foundation. We'll back with more live coverage, stay with us. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> (narrator) Live from Copenhagen Denmark, it's theCUBE covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome to theCUBE. Exclusive coverage of Kubecon 2018 here in Europe. The Linux Foundation, theCUBE's coverage. Again, we're covering Kubecon, Cloud Native Conference, part of the CNCF. I'm John Furrier, host this week here in Europe with Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> Cloud, CloudNative is hot, obviously the Cloud Native Compute Foundation, CNCF, part of the Linux Foundation, driving really a pretty incredible growth. >> This is tremendous. >> Onboard and the logos, it's just pretty massive growth in microservices. >> It's just, you're seeing so many interesting things that are actually coming to this show. You know, A there's over 4,000 people here I heard. You know the taxi line was 20 people deep this morning to actually get here for the keynote. And I got to say that, you know, some of the technologies that are coming out are just really tremendous. I mean, we've got some great folks that are going to be coming on the show. Lew Tucker from Cisco and then we've got Tyler Jewell whose going to be talking about a new Cloud Native programming language. I think that's pretty interesting. >> And we've got some great influences as well. We're going to get the commentary. But the big story is, we're in Copenhagen Denmark. Sun's shining. It was raining yesterday but again, great European city. Feels like Amsterdam, got the canals. But the growth in Europe is just, it feels like I'm in North America in just terms of the volume. It's not like a satellite show. Normally in Europe, you see kind of the U.S., North America big tent events and then Europe's kind o' like a sidecar, no pun intended event. But no, it's pretty massive. I mean, you're seeing great developer uptake here in Europe. Cloud is hot. Kubernetes is the talk of the show, >> You know, I, >> SDO among other things. >> Exactly, you know, I think, I've been talking to folks around the conference center and so many of them as actually learning this for the first time and bringing it back to their, you know, large banks or some of their employers, you know, huge European companies that are actually looking to adopt this. And I think it's just phenomenal. >> I was chatting with Abby Kearns last night. I told her I'd give her a quick plug here on theCUBE. She's CEO of Cloud Foundry and we were having a chat. She just did a survey as part of the Cloud Foundry Group that found that outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley and certainly in the influencer sphere, most people have heard of Kubernetes, but actually don't know what it is and kind o' where it's going to be applied. It's one of those things where it's really taken the world by storm, certainly in the classic enterprises but application developers are seeing the goodness of what Kubernetes will do when you look at multiple workloads, workload portability, microservices as the growth of applications become cloudified. >> I think it's >> Kubernetes is key. >> It's key and I think the projects that really are inside of the CNCF are obviously super key as well, like Spyfy, who actually detects kind of workloads and types and you know, does that in an automated way. So, you know, the user doesn't have to figure that out anymore. I think those technologies are really the ones that are going to be you know, changing the landscape of platforms, you know, now and to come. >> Yeah. So Dan Kohn's up on stage, Lew Tucker's up on stage talking about multiclouds from Cisco's perspective. Lauren, you're out there on the streets working with some startups and big companies as they start to transform cloud, what do you see as the key themes of the show, what are the notable highlights for you that you see on the agenda and what are some of the things you're looking for this week in Europe? >> Well, I'm definitely looking to find out really what the news here is. You know, we've got some new projects. We've got some new end users. We've got some awards that are handed out. I really want to get to the root of what's new and what's happening. I think that there are some interesting things that are happening around. You know, we know that growth is explosive in this community. I think that, you know, is very clear. What I don't know is, you know, kind of clear to me yet at least, is really how large CNCF has gotten and how it really going to kind o' fit together and how users are going to take advantage of that entire ecosystem because they're just so many partners now and users. How do you actually pull that together in a way that's going to be workable from, you know, the perspective of a platform? >> To me the big story I like here and certainly what's notable is, and worth talking about is the role Google's playing. If you look at this show, you got some Microsoft here with Azure but really Google's at the centerpiece of this. See Red Hat and all the other industry players are here as well. But Google is driving a lot of open source standards. This is the real kind o', I won't say anti-AWS show but it's kind o' like you got Amazon re:Invent and then you got everybody else. And this is, this show represents to me everybody else because there's a real emphasis on multicloud and workload portability again, not getting a lot into one cloud. Google's pretty upfront about that and they're betting on open source to be that lever to get a good position in the cloud game. >> Well it has to be and I think really what's interesting to is AWS did show up here and they had a, you know, I was actually bouncing between some of the trainings that were going on with Fido, one of the projects and also, you know, what was going on with AWS. They call it their awesome day. And there were a lot of folks attending and a lot of folks interested. So I think it's going to be an interesting game here John. >> Well we have Adrian Cockcroft coming on, obviously, he's with AWS. He's leading the open source efforts for Amazon. And again, not to poke at Amazon but, you know, Amazon is so busy and they announce so much at re:Invent, they're so ahead of the game on cloud, cloud scale, just a number of services that Amazon... (techno music) the cloud has had significant impacts. We covered Amazon's earnings last week, again, at 50% increase. The profit that AWS is throwing off is so notable and so impressive that it really is a bellwhether to me on terms of this cloud transformation. And the key is applications. That is the number one focus we're seeing and how that makes the cloud scale an impact. What are you looking for with applications? What's interesting you, what's interested you there with the applications? >> Any applications that are running from public to, and private across that environment but I want to see multi-public cloud environments as well as on, you know, our private environments too. That to me is interesting. >> Well I want to get your thoughts on another topic that we're going to talk about this week and that is the role of the personnel inside the organization for cloud transformations. So for instance, the role of the admin operators out there, or admins and operators. Certainly at Cisco, DevNet Create that we were recently at, the role of the network manager is moving much more cloud oriented program or infrastructure. But you're seeing Google starting to talk about things like automation is good but yet the role of an operator, they call it at NASA a Site and Reliability Engineer, as the key position for cloud, what's your thought on the personnel equation for cloud within an enterprise within large companies. >> Well the SRE is the new hot role to have, right? I think that there is an increase interest in that audience because they are actually the ones that are troubleshooting a lot of this and looking at a lot of what this strategy is and where to take these things. I think that you know, it's also interesting because as people are looking to aspire to different roles, this is one of the ones that has become more established and is kind of shined upon in the developer world right now. And it's going to be interesting to see if that stays that way or if, you know, they're going to be, you know, what's kind of going to happen there. >> Thoughts on microservices in context, SDO service meshes. Again, last Kubecon we talked about SDO, the service mesh piece of it, with the notion of a modern architecture. How is that playing out in your mind? >> I think it's playing out pretty well. Everyone seems to be on the ciscobus. I also think that, you know, when we talk to Lew Tucker for example, I think we really need to ask him where he sees it going and what's going on with Cisco and the ecosystem at large on that. But everyone is playing and playing nice with those guys. >> I'm interested to get the security update. We're going to have some Google folks on. I want to find out what's new with that and also Google Next is coming up in July, their big cloud show. I'm expecting it be that pretty large event. Google is really going all in on cloud. Certainly, the cloud group within Google's got a lot of investment, a lot of enterprise folks. But the security question in Kubernetes is an interesting one. How to deploy, you know, endpoint security or is it an IOT thing? Is it ship set to operating system to application? I mean this is the open question on Kubernetes is security. >> I don't have a good answer for you there. I think that, you know, that is something we definitely need to dig into as a community and as developers. It's something that, you know, I think is was mentioned in the keynote today and I think we got to continue to to poke at that one. >> Awesome. Well we're here kicking off day one of two days of coverage here at CNCFs Kubecon, John Furrier with Lauren Cooney. Back with more live coverage here in Europe in Denmark. We're in Copenhagen for cube coverage at Kubecon 2018 Europe. (techno music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its Ecosystem partners. >> Hi everyone, welcome back, this is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of the Linux Foundation's Cloud Native Compute Foundation KubeCon 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE and we're here with two Google folks. JD Velazquez who's the Product Manager for Stackdriver, got some news on that we're going to cover, and David Aronchick, who's the co-founder of Kubeflow, also with Google, news here on that. Guys, welcome to theCUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John. >> Thank you very much. >> So we're going to have Google Next coming out, theCUBE will be there this summer, looking forward to digging in to all the enterprise traction you guys have, and we had some good briefings at Google. Ton of movement on the Cloud for Google, so congratulations. >> JD: Thank you. >> Open source is not new to Google. This is a big show for you guys. What's the focus, you've got some news on Stackdriver, and Kubeflow. Kubeflow, not Cube flow, that's our flow. (laughing) David, share some of the news and then we'll get into Stackdriver. >> Absolutely, so Kubeflow is a brand new project. We launched it in December, and it is basically how to make machine learning stacks easy to use and deploy and maintain on Kubernetes. So we're not launching anything new. We support TensorFlow and PyTorch, Caffe, all the tools that you're familiar with today. But we use all the native APIs and constructs that Kubernetes rides to make it very easy and to let data scientists and researchers focus on what they do great, and let the I.T. Ops people deploy and manage these stacks. >> So simplifying the interactions and cross-functionality of the apps. Using Kubernetes. >> Exactly, when you go and talk to any researcher out there or data scientist, what you'll find is that while the model, TensorFlow, or Pytorch or whatever, that gets a little bit of the attention. 95% of the time is spent in all the other elements of the pipeline. Transforming your data, ingesting it, experimenting, visualizing. And then rolling it out toward production. What we want to do with Kubeflow is give everyone a standard way to interact with those, to interact with all those components. And give them a great workflow for doing so. >> That's great, and the Stackdriver news, what's the news we got going on? >> We're excited, we just announced the beta release of Stackdriver Kubernetes monitoring, which provides very rich and comprehensive observability for Kubernetes. So this is essentially simplifying operations for developers and operators. It's a very cool solution, it integrates many signals across the Kubernetes environment, including metrics, logs, events, as well as metadata. So what it allows is for you to really inspect your Kubernetes environment, regardless of the role, and regardless of where your deployment is running it. >> David is bringing up just the use cases. I just, my mind is exploding, 'cause you think about what Tensorflow is to a developer, and all the goodness that's going on with the app layer. The monitoring and the instrumentation is a critical piece, because Kubernetes is going to bring the people what is thousands and thousands of new services. So, how do you instrument that? I mean, you got to know, I want to provision this service dynamically, that didn't exist. How do you measure that, I mean this is, is this the challenge you guys are trying to figure out here? >> Yeah, for sure John. The great thing here is that we, and at Google primarily, many of our ancillary practices go beyond monitoring. It really is about observability, which I would describe more as a property of a system. How do you, are able to collect all these many signals to help you diagnose the production failure, and to get information about usage and so forth. So we do all of that for you in your Kubernetes environment, right. We take that toil away from the developer or the operator. Now, a cool thing is that you can also instrument your application in open source. You can use Prometheus, and we have an integration for that, so anything you've done in a Prometheus instrumentation, now you can bring into the cloud as needed. >> Tell about this notion, everyone gets that, oh my God, Google's huge. You guys are very open, you're integrating well. Talk about the guiding principles you guys have when you think about Prometheus as an example. Integrating in with these other projects. How are you guys treating these other projects? What's the standard practice? API Base? Is there integration plans? How do you guys address that question? >> Yeah, at a high level I would say, at Google, we really believe in contributing and helping grow open communities. I think that the best way to maintain a community open and portable is to help it grow. And Prometheus particularly, and Kubernetes of course, is a very vibrant community in that sense. So we are, from the start, designing our systems to be able to have integration, via APIs and so on, but also contributing directly to the projects. >> And I think that one thing that's just leveraging off that exact point, y'know, we realize what the world looks like. There's literally zero customers out there, like, "Well, I want be all in on one cloud. "Y'know, that 25 million dollar data center "I spent last year building. "Yeah, I'll toss that out so that I can get, "y'know, some special thing." The reality is, people are multi-cloud. And the only way to solve any problem is with these very open standards that work wherever people are. And that's very much core to our philosophy. >> Well, I mean, I've been critical of multi-cloud, by the definition. Statistically, if I'm on Azure, with 365, that's Azure. If I'm running something on Amazon, those are two clouds, they're not multi-cloud, by my definition. Which brings up where this is going, which is latency and portability, which you guys are really behind. How are you guys looking at that, because you mentioned observation. Let's talk about the observation space of clouds. How are you guys looking at, 'cause that's what people are talking about. When are we going to get to the future state, which is, I need to have workload portability, in real time, if I want to move something from Azure to AWS or Google Cloud, that would be cool. Can't do that today. >> That is actually the core of what we did around Kubeflow. What we are able to do is describe in code all the layers of your pipeline, all the steps of your pipeline. That works based on any conformant Kubernetes cluster. So, you have a Kubernetes conformant cluster on Azure, or on AWS, or on Google Cloud, or on your laptop, or in your private data center, that's great. And to be clear, I totally agree. I don't think that having single workloads spread across cloud, that's not just unrealistic, because of all the things you identified. Latency, variability, unknown failures, y'know. Cap theorem is a thing because, y'know, it's well-known. But what people want to do is, they want to take advantage of different clouds for the efforts that they provide. Maybe my data is here, maybe I have a legal reason, maybe this particular cloud has a unique chip, or unique service-- >> Use cases can drive it. >> Exactly, and then I can take my workload, which has been described in code and deploy it to that place where it makes sense. Keeping it within a single cloud, but as an organization I'll use multiple clouds together. >> Yeah, I agree, and the data's key, because if you can have data moving between clouds, I think that's something I would like to see, because that's going to be, because the metadata you mentioned is a real critical piece of all these apps. Whether it's instrumentation logging, and/or, y'know, provisioning new services. >> Yeah, and as soon as you have, as David is mentioning, if you have deployments on, y'know, with public or private clouds, then the difficult part is that of severability, that we were talking before. Because now you're trying to stitch together data, and tools to help you get that diagnosed, or get signals when you need them. This is what we're doing with Stackdriver Kubernetes monitoring, precisely. >> Y'know, we're early days in the cloud. It stills feels like we're 10 years in, but, y'know, a lot of people are now coming to realize cloud native, so. Y'know, I'm not a big fan of the whole, y'know, Amazon, although they do say Amazon's winning, they are doing quite well with the cloud, 'cause they're a cloud. It's early days, and you guys are doing some really specific good things with the cloud, but you don't have the breadth of services, say, Amazon has. And you guys are above board about that. You're like, "Hey, we're not trying to meet them "speed for speed on services." But you do certain things really, really well. You mentioned SRE. Site Reliability Engineers. This is a scale best practice that you guys have bringing to the table. But yet the customers are learning about Kubernetes. Some people who have never heard of it before say, "Hey, what's this Kubernetes thing?" >> Right. >> What is your perspectives on the relevance of Kubernetes at this point in history? Because it really feels like a critical mass, de facto, standard movement where everyone's getting behind Kubernetes, for all the right reasons. It feels a lot like interoperability is here. Thoughts on Kubernetes' relevance. >> Well I think that Alexis Richardson summed it up great today, the chairperson of the technical oversight committee. The reality is that what we're looking for, what operators and software engineers have been looking for forever, is clean lines between the various concerns. So as you think about the underlying infrastructure, and then you think about the applications that run on top of that, potentially services that run on top of that, then you think about applications, then you think about how that shows up to end users. Before, if you're old like me, you remember that you buy a $50,000 machine and stick it in the corner, and you'd stack everything on there, right? That never works, right? The power supply goes out, the memory goes out, this particular database goes out. Failure will happen. The only way to actually build a system that is reliable, that can meet your business needs, is by adopting something more cloud native, where if any particular component fails, your system can recover. If you have business requirements that change, you can move very quickly and adapt. Kubernetes provides a rich, portable, common set of APIs, that do work everywhere. And as a result, you're starting to see a lot of adoption, because it gives people that opportunity. But I think, y'know and let me hand off to JD here, y'know, the next layer up is about observability. Because without observing what's going on in each of those stacks, you're not going to have any kind of-- >> Well, programmability comes behind it, to your point. Talk about that, that's a huge point. >> Yeah, and just to build on what David is saying, one thing that is unique about Google is that we've been doing for more than a decade now, we've been very good at being able to provide innovative services without compromising reliability. Right, and so what we're doing is in that commitment, and you see that with Kubernetes and Istio, we're externalizing many of our, y'know, opinionated infrastructure, and platforms in that sense, but it's not just the platforms. You need those methodologies and best practices. And now the toolset. So that's what we're doing now, precisely. >> And you guys have made great strides, just to kind of point out to the folks watching, in the enterprise, I know you've got a lot more work to do but you're pedaling as fast as you can. I want to ask you specifically around this, because again, we're still early days with the cloud, if you think about it, there are now table stakes that are on the table that you got to get done. Check boxes if you will. Certainly on the government side there's like, compliance issues, and you guys are now checking those boxes. What is the key thing, 'cause you guys are operating at a scale that enterprises can't even fathom. I mean, millions of services, on and on up a huge scale. That's going to be helpful for them down the road, no doubt about it. But today, what is the Google table stakes that are done, and what are enterprises need to have for table stakes to do cloud native right, from your perspective? >> Well, I think more than anything, y'know, I agree with you. The reality is all the hyperscale cloud providers have the same table stakes, all the check boxes are checked, we're ready to go. I think what will really differentiate and move the ball forward for so many people is this adoption of cloud native. And really, how cloud native is your cloud, right? How much do you need to spin up an entire SRE team like Netflix in order to operate in the Netflix model of, y'know, complete automation and building your own services and things like that. Does your cloud help you get cloud native? And I think that's where we really want to lean in. It's not about IAS anymore, it's about does your cloud support the reliability, support the distribution, all the various services, in order to help you move even faster and achieve higher velocity. >> And standing up that is critical, because now these applications are the business model of companies, when you talk about digital. So I tweeted, I want to get your reaction to this, yesterday I got a quote I overheard from a person here in the hallways. "I need to get away from VPNs and firewalls. "I need user application layer security "with unphishable access, otherwise I'm never safe." Again this talks about the perimeterless cloud, spearphishing is really hot right now, people are getting killed with security concerns. So, I'm going to stop if I'm enterprise, I'm going to say, "Hold on, I'm not going," Y'know, I'm going to proceed with caution. What are you guys doing to take away the fear, and also the reality that as you provision all these, stand up all this infrastructure, services for customers, what are you guys doing to prevent phishing attacks from happening, security concerns, what's the Google story? >> So I think that more than anything, what we're trying to do is exactly what JD just said, which is externalize all the practices that we have. So, for example, at Google we have all sorts of internal tools that we've used, and internal practices. For example, we just published a whitepaper about our security practices where you need to have two vulnerabilities in order to break out of any system. We have all that written up there. We just published a whitepaper about encryption and how to do encryption by default, encryption between machines and so on. But I think what we're really doing is, we're helping people to operate like Google without having to spin up an entire SRE team as big as Google's to do it. An example is, we just released something internally, we have something called BeyondCorp. It's a non-firewall, non-VPN based way for you to authenticate against any Google system, using two-factor authentication, for our internal employees. Externally, we just released it, it's called, Internet, excuse me, IdentityAware proxy. You can use with literally any service that you have. You can provision a domain name, you can integrate with OAuth, you can, including Google OAuth or your own private OAuth. All those various things. That's simply a service that we offer, and so, really, y'know, I think-- >> And there's also multi, more than two-factor coming down the road, right? >> Exactly, actually IdentityAware proxy already supports two-factor. But I will say, one of the things that I always tell people, is a lot of enterprises say exactly what you said. "Jeez, this new world looks very scary to me. "I'm going to slow down." The problem is they're mistaken, under the mistaken impression that they're secure today. More than likely, they're not. They already have firewall, they already have VPN, and it's not great. In many ways, the enterprises that are going to win are the ones that lean in and move faster to the new world. >> Well, they have to, otherwise they're going to die, with IOT and all these benefits, they're exposed even as they are, just operationally. >> Yep. >> Just to support it. Okay, I want to get your thoughts, guys, on Google's role here at the Linux Foundation's CNCF KubeCon event. You guys do a lot of work in open source. You've got a lot of great fan base. I'm a fan of what you guys do, love the tech Google brings to the table. How do people get involved, what are you guys connecting with here, what's going on at the show, and how does someone get on board with the Google train? Certainly TensorFlow has been, it's like, great open source goodness, developers are loving it, what's going on? >> Well we have over almost 200 people from Google here at the show, helping and connecting with people, we have a Google booth which I invite people to stop by and tell about the different project we have. >> Yeah, and exactly like you said, we have an entire repo on Github. Anyone can jump in, all our things are open source and available for everyone to use no matter where they are. Obviously I've been on Kubernetes for a while. The Kubernetes project is on fire, Tensorflow is on fire, KubeFlow that we mentioned earlier is completely open source, we're integrating with Prometheus, which is a CNCF project. We are huge fans of these open source foundations and we think that's the direction that most software projects are going to go. >> Well congratulations, I know you guys invested a lot. I just want to highlight that. Again, to show my age, y'know these younger generation have no idea how hard open source was in the early days. I call it open bar and open source, you guys are bringing so much, y'know, everyone's drunk on all this goodness. Y'know, just these libraries you guys bringing to the table. >> David: Right. >> I mean Tensorflow is just the classic poster-child example. I mean, you're bringing a lot of stuff to the table. I mean, you invented Kubernetes. So much good stuff coming in. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I hesitate to say we invented it. It really was a community effort, but yeah, absolutely-- >> But you opened it up, and you did it right, and did a good job. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, I'm going to see you at Google Next. theCUBE will be broadcasting live at Google Next in July. Of course we'll do a big drill-down on Google Cloud platform at that show. It's theCUBE here at KubeCon 2018 in Copenhagen, Denmark. More live coverage after this short break, stay with us. (upbeat music)