>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante >> Enterprise tech practitioners, like most of us they want to make their lives easier so they can focus on delivering more value to their businesses. And to do so, they want to tap best of breed services in the public cloud, but at the same time connect their on-prem intellectual property to emerging applications which drive top line revenue and bottom line profits. But creating a consistent experience across clouds and on-prem estates has been an elusive capability for most organizations, forcing trade-offs and injecting friction into the system. The need to create seamless experiences is clear and the technology industry is starting to respond with platforms, architectures, and visions of what we've called the Supercloud. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we give you a preview of Supercloud 2, the second event of its kind that we've had on the topic. Yes, folks that's right Supercloud 2 is here. As of this recording, it's just about four days away 33 guests, 21 sessions, combining live discussions and fireside chats from theCUBE's Palo Alto Studio with prerecorded conversations on the future of cloud and data. You can register for free at supercloud.world. And we are super excited about the Supercloud 2 lineup of guests whereas Supercloud 22 in August, was all about refining the definition of Supercloud testing its technical feasibility and understanding various deployment models. Supercloud 2 features practitioners, technologists and analysts discussing what customers need with real-world examples of Supercloud and will expose thinking around a new breed of cross-cloud apps, data apps, if you will that change the way machines and humans interact with each other. Now the example we'd use if you think about applications today, say a CRM system, sales reps, what are they doing? They're entering data into opportunities they're choosing products they're importing contacts, et cetera. And sure the machine can then take all that data and spit out a forecast by rep, by region, by product, et cetera. But today's applications are largely about filling in forms and or codifying processes. In the future, the Supercloud community sees a new breed of applications emerging where data resides on different clouds, in different data storages, databases, Lakehouse, et cetera. And the machine uses AI to inspect the e-commerce system the inventory data, supply chain information and other systems, and puts together a plan without any human intervention whatsoever. Think about a system that orchestrates people, places and things like an Uber for business. So at Supercloud 2, you'll hear about this vision along with some of today's challenges facing practitioners. Zhamak Dehghani, the founder of Data Mesh is a headliner. Kit Colbert also is headlining. He laid out at the first Supercloud an initial architecture for what that's going to look like. That was last August. And he's going to present his most current thinking on the topic. Veronika Durgin of Sachs will be featured and talk about data sharing across clouds and you know what she needs in the future. One of the main highlights of Supercloud 2 is a dive into Walmart's Supercloud. Other featured practitioners include Western Union Ionis Pharmaceuticals, Warner Media. We've got deep, deep technology dives with folks like Bob Muglia, David Flynn Tristan Handy of DBT Labs, Nir Zuk, the founder of Palo Alto Networks focused on security. Thomas Hazel, who's going to talk about a new type of database for Supercloud. It's several analysts including Keith Townsend Maribel Lopez, George Gilbert, Sanjeev Mohan and so many more guests, we don't have time to list them all. They're all up on supercloud.world with a full agenda, so you can check that out. Now let's take a look at some of the things that we're exploring in more detail starting with the Walmart Cloud native platform, they call it WCNP. We definitely see this as a Supercloud and we dig into it with Jack Greenfield. He's the head of architecture at Walmart. Here's a quote from Jack. "WCNP is an implementation of Kubernetes for the Walmart ecosystem. We've taken Kubernetes off the shelf as open source." By the way, they do the same thing with OpenStack. "And we have integrated it with a number of foundational services that provide other aspects of our computational environment. Kubernetes off the shelf doesn't do everything." And so what Walmart chose to do, they took a do-it-yourself approach to build a Supercloud for a variety of reasons that Jack will explain, along with Walmart's so-called triplet architecture connecting on-prem, Azure and GCP. No surprise, there's no Amazon at Walmart for obvious reasons. And what they do is they create a common experience for devs across clouds. Jack is going to talk about how Walmart is evolving its Supercloud in the future. You don't want to miss that. Now, next, let's take a look at how Veronica Durgin of SAKS thinks about data sharing across clouds. Data sharing we think is a potential killer use case for Supercloud. In fact, let's hear it in Veronica's own words. Please play the clip. >> How do we talk to each other? And more importantly, how do we data share? You know, I work with data, you know this is what I do. So if you know I want to get data from a company that's using, say Google, how do we share it in a smooth way where it doesn't have to be this crazy I don't know, SFTP file moving? So that's where I think Supercloud comes to me in my mind, is like practical applications. How do we create that mesh, that network that we can easily share data with each other? >> Now data mesh is a possible architectural approach that will enable more facile data sharing and the monetization of data products. You'll hear Zhamak Dehghani live in studio talking about what standards are missing to make this vision a reality across the Supercloud. Now one of the other things that we're really excited about is digging deeper into the right approach for Supercloud adoption. And we're going to share a preview of a debate that's going on right now in the community. Bob Muglia, former CEO of Snowflake and Microsoft Exec was kind enough to spend some time looking at the community's supercloud definition and he felt that it needed to be simplified. So in near real time he came up with the following definition that we're showing here. I'll read it. "A Supercloud is a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers." So not only did Bob simplify the initial definition he's stressed that the Supercloud is a platform versus an architecture implying that the platform provider eg Snowflake, VMware, Databricks, Cohesity, et cetera is responsible for determining the architecture. Now interestingly in the shared Google doc that the working group uses to collaborate on the supercloud de definition, Dr. Nelu Mihai who is actually building a Supercloud responded as follows to Bob's assertion "We need to avoid creating many Supercloud platforms with their own architectures. If we do that, then we create other proprietary clouds on top of existing ones. We need to define an architecture of how Supercloud interfaces with all other clouds. What is the information model? What is the execution model and how users will interact with Supercloud?" What does this seemingly nuanced point tell us and why does it matter? Well, history suggests that de facto standards will emerge more quickly to resolve real world practitioner problems and catch on more quickly than consensus-based architectures and standards-based architectures. But in the long run, the ladder may serve customers better. So we'll be exploring this topic in more detail in Supercloud 2, and of course we'd love to hear what you think platform, architecture, both? Now one of the real technical gurus that we'll have in studio at Supercloud two is David Flynn. He's one of the people behind the the movement that enabled enterprise flash adoption, that craze. And he did that with Fusion IO and he is now working on a system to enable read write data access to any user in any application in any data center or on any cloud anywhere. So think of this company as a Supercloud enabler. Allow me to share an excerpt from a conversation David Flore and I had with David Flynn last year. He as well gave a lot of thought to the Supercloud definition and was really helpful with an opinionated point of view. He said something to us that was, we thought relevant. "What is the operating system for a decentralized cloud? The main two functions of an operating system or an operating environment are one the process scheduler and two, the file system. The strongest argument for supercloud is made when you go down to the platform layer and talk about it as an operating environment on which you can run all forms of applications." So a couple of implications here that will be exploring with David Flynn in studio. First we're inferring from his comment that he's in the platform camp where the platform owner is responsible for the architecture and there are obviously trade-offs there and benefits but we'll have to clarify that with him. And second, he's basically saying, you kill the concept the further you move up the stack. So the weak, the further you move the stack the weaker the supercloud argument becomes because it's just becoming SaaS. Now this is something we're going to explore to better understand is thinking on this, but also whether the existing notion of SaaS is changing and whether or not a new breed of Supercloud apps will emerge. Which brings us to this really interesting fellow that George Gilbert and I RIFed with ahead of Supercloud two. Tristan Handy, he's the founder and CEO of DBT Labs and he has a highly opinionated and technical mind. Here's what he said, "One of the things that we still don't know how to API-ify is concepts that live inside of your data warehouse inside of your data lake. These are core concepts that the business should be able to create applications around very easily. In fact, that's not the case because it involves a lot of data engineering pipeline and other work to make these available. So if you really want to make it easy to create these data experiences for users you need to have an ability to describe these metrics and then to turn them into APIs to make them accessible to application developers who have literally no idea how they're calculated behind the scenes and they don't need to." A lot of implications to this statement that will explore at Supercloud two versus Jamma Dani's data mesh comes into play here with her critique of hyper specialized data pipeline experts with little or no domain knowledge. Also the need for simplified self-service infrastructure which Kit Colbert is likely going to touch upon. Veronica Durgin of SAKS and her ideal state for data shearing along with Harveer Singh of Western Union. They got to deal with 200 locations around the world in data privacy issues, data sovereignty how do you share data safely? Same with Nick Taylor of Ionis Pharmaceutical. And not to blow your mind but Thomas Hazel and Bob Muglia deposit that to make data apps a reality across the Supercloud you have to rethink everything. You can't just let in memory databases and caching architectures take care of everything in a brute force manner. Rather you have to get down to really detailed levels even things like how data is laid out on disk, ie flash and think about rewriting applications for the Supercloud and the MLAI era. All of this and more at Supercloud two which wouldn't be complete without some data. So we pinged our friends from ETR Eric Bradley and Darren Bramberm to see if they had any data on Supercloud that we could tap. And so we're going to be analyzing a number of the players as well at Supercloud two. Now, many of you are familiar with this graphic here we show some of the players involved in delivering or enabling Supercloud-like capabilities. On the Y axis is spending momentum and on the horizontal accesses market presence or pervasiveness in the data. So netscore versus what they call overlap or end in the data. And the table insert shows how the dots are plotted now not to steal ETR's thunder but the first point is you really can't have supercloud without the hyperscale cloud platforms which is shown on this graphic. But the exciting aspect of Supercloud is the opportunity to build value on top of that hyperscale infrastructure. Snowflake here continues to show strong spending velocity as those Databricks, Hashi, Rubrik. VMware Tanzu, which we all put under the magnifying glass after the Broadcom announcements, is also showing momentum. Unfortunately due to a scheduling conflict we weren't able to get Red Hat on the program but they're clearly a player here. And we've put Cohesity and Veeam on the chart as well because backup is a likely use case across clouds and on-premises. And now one other call out that we drill down on at Supercloud two is CloudFlare, which actually uses the term supercloud maybe in a different way. They look at Supercloud really as you know, serverless on steroids. And so the data brains at ETR will have more to say on this topic at Supercloud two along with many others. Okay, so why should you attend Supercloud two? What's in it for me kind of thing? So first of all, if you're a practitioner and you want to understand what the possibilities are for doing cross-cloud services for monetizing data how your peers are doing data sharing, how some of your peers are actually building out a Supercloud you're going to get real world input from practitioners. If you're a technologist, you're trying to figure out various ways to solve problems around data, data sharing, cross-cloud service deployment there's going to be a number of deep technology experts that are going to share how they're doing it. We're also going to drill down with Walmart into a practical example of Supercloud with some other examples of how practitioners are dealing with cross-cloud complexity. Some of them, by the way, are kind of thrown up their hands and saying, Hey, we're going mono cloud. And we'll talk about the potential implications and dangers and risks of doing that. And also some of the benefits. You know, there's a question, right? Is Supercloud the same wine new bottle or is it truly something different that can drive substantive business value? So look, go to Supercloud.world it's January 17th at 9:00 AM Pacific. You can register for free and participate directly in the program. Okay, that's a wrap. I want to give a shout out to the Supercloud supporters. VMware has been a great partner as our anchor sponsor Chaos Search Proximo, and Alura as well. For contributing to the effort I want to thank Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast. Ken Schiffman is his supporting cast as well. Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight to help get the word out on social media and at our newsletters. And Rob Ho is our editor-in-chief over at Silicon Angle. Thank you all. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcast. Wherever you listen we really appreciate the support that you've given. We just saw some stats from from Buzz Sprout, we hit the top 25% we're almost at 400,000 downloads last year. So really appreciate your participation. All you got to do is search Breaking Analysis podcast and you'll find those I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. Or if you want to get ahold of me you can email me directly at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com or dm me DVellante or comment on our LinkedIn post. I want you to check out etr.ai. They've got the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next week at Supercloud two or next time on breaking analysis. (light music)

>> From every ISV to solve the problems. You want there to be tools in place that you can use, either open source tools or whatever it is that help you build it. And slowly over time, that building will become easier and easier. So my question to you was, where do you see you playing? Do you see yourself playing to ISVs as a set of tools, which will make their life a lot easier and provide that work? >> Absolutely. >> If they don't have, so they don't have to do it. Or you're providing this for the end users? Or both? >> So it's a progression. If you go to the ISVs first, you're doomed to starved before you have time for that other option. >> Yeah. >> Right? So it's a question of phase, the phasing of it. And also if you go directly to end users, you can demonstrate the power of it and get the attention of the ISVs. I believe that the ISVs, especially those with the biggest footprints and the most, you know, coveted estates, they have already made massive investments at trying to solve decentralization of their software stack. And I believe that they have used it as a hook to try to move to a software as a service model and rope people into leasing their infrastructure. So if you look at the clouds that have been propped up by Autodesk or by Adobe, or you name the company, they are building proprietary makeshift solutions for decentralizing or hybrid clouding. Or maybe they're not even doing that at all and all they're is saying hey, if you want to get location agnosticness, then what you should just, is just move into our cloud. >> Right. >> And then they try to solve on the background how to decentralize it between different regions so they can have decent offerings in each region. But those who are more advanced have already made larger investments and will be more averse to, you know, throwing that stuff away, all of their makeshift machinery away, and using a platform that gives them high performance parallel, low level file system access, while at the same time having metadata-driven, you know, policy-based, intent-based orchestration to manage the diffusion of data across a decentralized infrastructure. They are not going to be as open because they've made such an investment and they're going to look at how do they monetize it. So what we have found with like the movie studios who are using us already, many of the app they're using, many of those software offerings, the ISVs have their own cloud that offers that software for the cloud. But what we got when I asked about this, 'cause I was dealt specifically into this question because I'm very interested to know how we're going to make that leap from end user upstream into the ISVs where I believe we need to, and they said, look, we cannot use these software ISV-specific SAS clouds for two reasons. Number one is we lose control of the data. We're giving it to them. That's security and other issues. And here you're talking about we're doing work for Disney, we're doing work for Netflix, and they're not going to let us put our data on those software clouds, on those SAS clouds. Secondly, in any reasonable pipeline, the data is shared by many different applications. We need to be agnostic as to the application. 'Cause the inputs to one application, you know, the output for one application provides the input to the next, and it's not necessarily from the same vendor. So they need to have a data platform that lets them, you know, go from one software stack, and you know, to run it on another. Because they might do the rendering with this and yet, they do the editing with that, and you know, et cetera, et cetera. So I think the further you go up the stack in the structured data and dedicated applications for specific functions in specific verticals, the further up the stack you go, the harder it is to justify a SAS offering where you're basically telling the end users you need to park all your data with us and then you can run your application in our cloud and get this. That ultimately is a dead end path versus having the data be open and available to many applications across this supercloud layer. >> Okay, so-- >> Is that making any sense? >> Yes, so if I could just ask a clarifying question. So, if I had to take Snowflake as an example, I think they're doing exactly what you're saying is a dead end, put everything into our proprietary system and then we'll figure out how to distribute it. >> Yeah. >> And and I think if you're familiar with Zhamak Dehghaniis' data mesh concept. Are you? >> A little bit, yeah. >> But in her model, Snowflake, a Snowflake warehouse is just a node on the mesh and that mesh is-- >> That's right. >> Ultimately the supercloud and you're an enabler of that is what I'm hearing. >> That's right. What they're doing up at the structured level and what they're talking about at the structured level we're doing at the underlying, unstructured level, which by the way has implications for how you implement those distributed database things. In other words, implementing a Snowflake on top of Hammerspace would have made building stuff like in the first place easier. It would allow you to easily shift and run the database engine anywhere. You still have to solve how to shard and distribute at the transaction layer above, so I'm not saying we're a substitute for what you need to do at the app layer. By the way, there is another example of that and that's Microsoft Office, right? It's one thing to share that, to have a file share where you can share all the docs. It's something else to have Word and PowerPoint, Excel know how to allow people to be simultaneously editing the same doc. That's always going to happen in the app layer. But not all applications need that level of, you know, in-app decentralization. You know, many of them, many workflows are pipelined, especially the ones that are very data intensive where you're doing drug discovery or you're doing rendering, or you're doing machine learning training. These things are human in the loop with large stages of processing across tens of thousands of cores. And I think that kind of data processing pipeline is what we're focusing on first. Not so much the Microsoft Office or the Snowflake, you know, parking a relational database because that takes a lot of application layer stuff and that's what they're good at. >> Right. >> But I think... >> Go ahead, sorry. >> Later entrance in these markets will find Hammerspace as a way to accelerate their work so they can focus more narrowly on just the stuff that's app-specific, higher level sharing in the app. >> Yes, Snowflake founders-- >> I think it might be worth mentioning also, just keep this confidential guys, but one of our customers is Blue Origin. And one of the things that we have found is kind of the point of what you're talking about with our customers. They're needing to build this and since it's not commercially available or they don't know where to look for it to be commercially available, they're all building themselves. So this layer is needed. And Blue is just one of the examples of quite a few we're now talking to. And like manufacturing, HPC, research where they're out trying to solve this problem with their own scripting tools and things like that. And I just, I don't know if there's anything you want to add, David, but you know, but there's definitely a demand here and customers are trying to figure out how to solve it beyond what Hammerspace is doing. Like the need is so great that they're just putting developers on trying to do it themselves. >> Well, and you know, Snowflake founders, they didn't have a Hammerspace to lean on. But, one of the things that's interesting about supercloud is we feel as though industry clouds will emerge, that as part of company's digital transformations, they will, you know, every company's a software company, they'll begin to build their own clouds and they will be able to use a Hammerspace to do that. >> A super pass layer. >> Yes. It's really, I don't know if David's speaking, I don't want to speak over him, but we can't hear you. May be going through a bad... >> Well, a regional, regional talks that make that possible. And so they're doing these render farms and editing farms, and it's a cloud-specific to the types of workflows in the median entertainment world. Or clouds specifically to workflows in the chip design world or in the drug and bio and life sciences exploration world. There are large organizations that are kind of a blend of end users, like the Broad, which has their own kind of cloud where they're asking collaborators to come in and work with them. So it starts to even blur who's an end user versus an ISV. >> Yes. >> Right? When you start talking about the massive data is the main gravity is to having lots of people participate. >> Yep, and that's where the value is. And that's where the value is. And this is a megatrend that we see. And so it's really important for us to get to the point of what is and what is not a supercloud and, you know, that's where we're trying to evolve. >> Let's talk about this for a second 'cause I want to, I want to challenge you on something and it's something that I got challenged on and it has led me to thinking differently than I did at first, which Molly can attest to. Okay? So, we have been looking for a way to talk about the concept of cloud of utility computing, run anything anywhere that isn't addressed in today's realization of cloud. 'Cause today's cloud is not run anything anywhere, it's quite the opposite. You park your data in AWS and that's where you run stuff. And you pretty much have to. Same with with Azure. They're using data gravity to keep you captive there, just like the old infrastructure guys did. But now it's even worse because it's coupled back with the software to some degree, as well. And you have to use their storage, networking, and compute. It's not, I mean it fell back to the mainframe era. Anyhow, so I love the concept of supercloud. By the way, I was going to suggest that a better term might be hyper cloud since hyper speaks to the multidimensionality of it and the ability to be in a, you know, be in a different dimension, a different plane of existence kind of thing like hyperspace. But super and hyper are somewhat synonyms. I mean, you have hyper cars and you have super cars and blah, blah, blah. I happen to like hyper maybe also because it ties into the whole Hammerspace notion of a hyper-dimensional, you know, reality, having your data centers connected by a wormhole that is Hammerspace. But regardless, what I got challenged on is calling it something different at all versus simply saying, this is what cloud has always meant to be. This is the true cloud, this is real cloud, this is cloud. And I think back to what happened, you'll remember, at Fusion IO we talked about IO memory and we did that because people had a conceptualization of what an SSD was. And an SSD back then was low capacity, low endurance, made to go military, aerospace where things needed to be rugged but was completely useless in the data center. And we needed people to imagine this thing as being able to displace entire SAND, with the kind of capacity density, performance density, endurance. And so we talked IO memory, we could have said enterprise SSD, and that's what the industry now refers to for that concept. What will people be saying five and 10 years from now? Will they simply say, well this is cloud as it was always meant to be where you are truly able to run anything anywhere and have not only the same APIs, but you're same data available with high performance access, all forms of access, block file and object everywhere. So yeah. And I wonder, and this is just me throwing it out there, I wonder if, well, there's trade offs, right? Giving it a new moniker, supercloud, versus simply talking about how cloud is always intended to be and what it was meant to be, you know, the real cloud or true cloud, there are trade-offs. By putting a name on it and branding it, that lets people talk about it and understand they're talking about something different. But it also is that an affront to people who thought that that's what they already had. >> What's different, what's new? Yes, and so we've given a lot of thought to this. >> Right, it's like you. >> And it's because we've been asked that why does the industry need a new term, and we've tried to address some of that. But some of the inside baseball that we haven't shared is, you remember the Web 2.0, back then? >> Yep. >> Web 2.0 was the same thing. And I remember Tim Burners Lee saying, "Why do we need Web 2.0? "This is what the Web was always supposed to be." But the truth is-- >> I know, that was another perfect-- >> But the truth is it wasn't, number one. Number two, everybody hated the Web 2.0 term. John Furrier was actually in the middle of it all. And then it created this groundswell. So one of the things we wrote about is that supercloud is an evocative term that catalyzes debate and conversation, which is what we like, of course. And maybe that's self-serving. But yeah, HyperCloud, Metacloud, super, meaning, it's funny because super came from Latin supra, above, it was never the superlative. But the superlative was a convenient byproduct that caused a lot of friction and flack, which again, in the media business is like a perfect storm brewing. >> The bad thing to have to, and I think you do need to shake people out of their, the complacency of the limitations that they're used to. And I'll tell you what, the fact that you even have the terms hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, private cloud, edge computing, those are all just referring to the different boundaries that isolate the silo that is the current limited cloud. >> Right. >> So if I heard correctly, what just, in terms of us defining what is and what isn't in supercloud, you would say traditional applications which have to run in a certain place, in a certain cloud can't run anywhere else, would be the stuff that you would not put in as being addressed by supercloud. And over time, you would want to be able to run the data where you want to and in any of those concepts. >> Or even modern apps, right? Or even modern apps that are siloed in SAS within an individual cloud, right? >> So yeah, I guess it's twofold. Number one, if you're going at the high application layers, there's lots of ways that you can give the appearance of anything running anywhere. The ISV, the SAS vendor can engineer stuff to have the ability to serve with low enough latency to different geographies, right? So if you go too high up the stack, it kind of loses its meaning because there's lots of different ways to make due and give the appearance of omni-presence of the service. Okay? As you come down more towards the platform layer, it gets harder and harder to mask the fact that supercloud is something entirely different than just a good regionally-distributed SAS service. So I don't think you, I don't think you can distinguish supercloud if you go too high up the stack because it's just SAS, it's just a good SAS service where the SAS vendor has done the hard work to give you low latency access from different geographic regions. >> Yeah, so this is one of the hardest things, David. >> Common among them. >> Yeah, this is really an important point. This is one of the things I've had the most trouble with is why is this not just SAS? >> So you dilute your message when you go up to the SAS layer. If you were to focus most of this around the super pass layer, the how can you host applications and run them anywhere and not host this, not run a service, not have a service available everywhere. So how can you take any application, even applications that are written, you know, in a traditional legacy data center fashion and be able to run them anywhere and have them have their binaries and their datasets and the runtime environment and the infrastructure to start them and stop them? You know, the jobs, the, what the Kubernetes, the job scheduler? What we're really talking about here, what I think we're really talking about here is building the operating system for a decentralized cloud. What is the operating system, the operating environment for a decentralized cloud? Where you can, and that the main two functions of an operating system or an operating environment are the process scheduler, the thing that's scheduling what is running where and when and so forth, and the file system, right? The thing that's supplying a common view and access to data. So when we talk about this, I think that the strongest argument for supercloud is made when you go down to the platform layer and talk of it, talk about it as an operating environment on which you can run all forms of applications. >> Would you exclude--? >> Not a specific application that's been engineered as a SAS. (audio distortion) >> He'll come back. >> Are you there? >> Yeah, yeah, you just cut out for a minute. >> I lost your last statement when you broke up. >> We heard you, you said that not the specific application. So would you exclude Snowflake from supercloud? >> Frankly, I would. I would. Because, well, and this is kind of hard to do because Snowflake doesn't like to, Frank doesn't like to talk about Snowflake as a SAS service. It has a negative connotation. >> But it is. >> I know, we all know it is. We all know it is and because it is, yes, I would exclude them. >> I think I actually have him on camera. >> There's nothing in common. >> I think I have him on camera or maybe Benoit as saying, "Well, we are a SAS." I think it's Slootman. I think I said to Slootman, "I know you don't like to say you're a SAS." And I think he said, "Well, we are a SAS." >> Because again, if you go to the top of the application stack, there's any number of ways you can give it location agnostic function or you know, regional, local stuff. It's like let's solve the location problem by having me be your one location. How can it be decentralized if you're centralizing on (audio distortion)? >> Well, it's more decentralized than if it's all in one cloud. So let me actually, so the spectrum. So again, in the spirit of what is and what isn't, I think it's safe to say Hammerspace is supercloud. I think there's no debate there, right? Certainly among this crowd. And I think we can all agree that Dell, Dell Storage is not supercloud. Where it gets fuzzy is this Snowflake example or even, how about a, how about a Cohesity that instantiates its stack in different cloud regions in different clouds, and synchronizes, however magic sauce it does that. Is that a supercloud? I mean, so I'm cautious about having too strict of a definition 'cause then only-- >> Fair enough, fair enough. >> But I could use your help and thoughts on that. >> So I think we're talking about two different spectrums here. One is the spectrum of platform to application-specific. As you go up the application stack and it becomes this specific thing. Or you go up to the more and more structured where it's serving a specific application function where it's more of a SAS thing. I think it's harder to call a SAS service a supercloud. And I would argue that the reason there, and what you're lacking in the definition is to talk about it as general purpose. Okay? Now, that said, a data warehouse is general purpose at the structured data level. So you could make the argument for why Snowflake is a supercloud by saying that it is a general purpose platform for doing lots of different things. It's just one at a higher level up at the structured data level. So one spectrum is the high level going from platform to, you know, unstructured data to structured data to very application-specific, right? Like a specific, you know, CAD/CAM mechanical design cloud, like an Autodesk would want to give you their cloud for running, you know, and sharing CAD/CAM designs, doing your CAD/CAM anywhere stuff. Well, the other spectrum is how well does the purported supercloud technology actually live up to allowing you to run anything anywhere with not just the same APIs but with the local presence of data with the exact same runtime environment everywhere, and to be able to correctly manage how to get that runtime environment anywhere. So a Cohesity has some means of running things in different places and some means of coordinating what's where and of serving diff, you know, things in different places. I would argue that it is a very poor approximation of what Hammerspace does in providing the exact same file system with local high performance access everywhere with metadata ability to control where the data is actually instantiated so that you don't have to wait for it to get orchestrated. But even then when you do have to wait for it, it happens automatically and so it's still only a matter of, well, how quick is it? And on the other end of the spectrum is you could look at NetApp with Flexcache and say, "Is that supercloud?" And I would argue, well kind of because it allows you to run things in different places because it's a cache. But you know, it really isn't because it presumes some central silo from which you're cacheing stuff. So, you know, is it or isn't it? Well, it's on a spectrum of exactly how fully is it decoupling a runtime environment from specific locality? And I think a cache doesn't, it stretches a specific silo and makes it have some semblance of similar access in other places. But there's still a very big difference to the central silo, right? You can't turn off that central silo, for example. >> So it comes down to how specific you make the definition. And this is where it gets kind of really interesting. It's like cloud. Does IBM have a cloud? >> Exactly. >> I would say yes. Does it have the kind of quality that you would expect from a hyper-scale cloud? No. Or see if you could say the same thing about-- >> But that's a problem with choosing a name. That's the problem with choosing a name supercloud versus talking about the concept of cloud and how true up you are to that concept. >> For sure. >> Right? Because without getting a name, you don't have to draw, yeah. >> I'd like to explore one particular or bring them together. You made a very interesting observation that from a enterprise point of view, they want to safeguard their store, their data, and they want to make sure that they can have that data running in their own workflows, as well as, as other service providers providing services to them for that data. So, and in in particular, if you go back to, you go back to Snowflake. If Snowflake could provide the ability for you to have your data where you wanted, you were in charge of that, would that make Snowflake a supercloud? >> I'll tell you, in my mind, they would be closer to my conceptualization of supercloud if you can instantiate Snowflake as software on your own infrastructure, and pump your own data to Snowflake that's instantiated on your own infrastructure. The fact that it has to be on their infrastructure or that it's on their, that it's on their account in the cloud, that you're giving them the data and they're, that fundamentally goes against it to me. If they, you know, they would be a pure, a pure plate if they were a software defined thing where you could instantiate Snowflake machinery on the infrastructure of your choice and then put your data into that machinery and get all the benefits of Snowflake. >> So did you see--? >> In other words, if they were not a SAS service, but offered all of the similar benefits of being, you know, if it were a service that you could run on your own infrastructure. >> So did you see what they announced, that--? >> I hope that's making sense. >> It does, did you see what they announced at Dell? They basically announced the ability to take non-native Snowflake data, read it in from an object store on-prem, like a Dell object store. They do the same thing with Pure, read it in, running it in the cloud, and then push it back out. And I was saying to Dell, look, that's fine. Okay, that's interesting. You're taking a materialized view or an extended table, whatever you're doing, wouldn't it be more interesting if you could actually run the query locally with your compute? That would be an extension that would actually get my attention and extend that. >> That is what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. And that's why I'm saying I think Hammerspace is more progressive on that front because with our technology, anybody who can instantiate a service, can make a service. And so I, so MSPs can use Hammerspace as a way to build a super pass layer and host their clients on their infrastructure in a cloud-like fashion. And their clients can have their own private data centers and the MSP or the public clouds, and Hammerspace can be instantiated, get this, by different parties in these different pieces of infrastructure and yet linked together to make a common file system across all of it. >> But this is data mesh. If I were HPE and Dell it's exactly what I'd be doing. I'd be working with Hammerspace to create my own data. I'd work with Databricks, Snowflake, and any other-- >> Data mesh is a good way to put it. Data mesh is a good way to put it. And this is at the lowest level of, you know, the underlying file system that's mountable by the operating system, consumed as a real file system. You can't get lower level than that. That's why this is the foundation for all of the other apps and structured data systems because you need to have a data mesh that can at least mesh the binary blob. >> Okay. >> That hold the binaries and that hold the datasets that those applications are running. >> So David, in the third week of January, we're doing supercloud 2 and I'm trying to convince John Furrier to make it a data slash data mesh edition. I'm slowly getting him to the knothole. I would very much, I mean you're in the Bay Area, I'd very much like you to be one of the headlines. As Zhamak Dehghaniis going to speak, she's the creator of Data Mesh, >> Sure. >> I'd love to have you come into our studio as well, for the live session. If you can't make it, we can pre-record. But you're right there, so I'll get you the dates. >> We'd love to, yeah. No, you can count on it. No, definitely. And you know, we don't typically talk about what we do as Data Mesh. We've been, you know, using global data environment. But, you know, under the covers, that's what the thing is. And so yeah, I think we can frame the discussion like that to line up with other, you know, with the other discussions. >> Yeah, and Data Mesh, of course, is one of those evocative names, but she has come up with some very well defined principles around decentralized data, data as products, self-serve infrastructure, automated governance, and and so forth, which I think your vision plugs right into. And she's brilliant. You'll love meeting her. >> Well, you know, and I think.. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Peter. >> Just like to work one other interface which I think is important. How do you see yourself and the open source? You talked about having an operating system. Obviously, Linux is the operating system at one level. How are you imagining that you would interface with cost community as part of this development? >> Well, it's funny you ask 'cause my CTO is the kernel maintainer of the storage networking stack. So how the Linux operating system perceives and consumes networked data at the file system level, the network file system stack is his purview. He owns that, he wrote most of it over the last decade that he's been the maintainer, but he's the gatekeeper of what goes in. And we have leveraged his abilities to enhance Linux to be able to use this decentralized data, in particular with decoupling the control plane driven by metadata from the data access path and the many storage systems on which the data gets accessed. So this factoring, this splitting of control plane from data path, metadata from data, was absolutely necessary to create a data mesh like we're talking about. And to be able to build this supercloud concept. And the highways on which the data runs and the client which knows how to talk to it is all open source. And we have, we've driven the NFS 4.2 spec. The newest NFS spec came from my team. And it was specifically the enhancements needed to be able to build a spanning file system, a data mesh at a file system level. Now that said, our file system itself and our server, our file server, our data orchestration, our data management stuff, that's all closed source, proprietary Hammerspace tech. But the highways on which the mesh connects are actually all open source and the client that knows how to consume it. So we would, honestly, I would welcome competitors using those same highways. They would be at a major disadvantage because we kind of built them, but it would still be very validating and I think only increase the potential adoption rate by more than whatever they might take of the market. So it'd actually be good to split the market with somebody else to come in and share those now super highways for how to mesh data at the file system level, you know, in here. So yeah, hopefully that answered your question. Does that answer the question about how we embrace the open source? >> Right, and there was one other, just that my last one is how do you enable something to run in every environment? And if we take the edge, for example, as being, as an environment which is much very, very compute heavy, but having a lot less capability, how do you do a hold? >> Perfect question. Perfect question. What we do today is a software appliance. We are using a Linux RHEL 8, RHEL 8 equivalent or a CentOS 8, or it's, you know, they're all roughly equivalent. But we have bundled and a software appliance which can be instantiated on bare metal hardware on any type of VM system from VMware to all of the different hypervisors in the Linux world, to even Nutanix and such. So it can run in any virtualized environment and it can run on any cloud instance, server instance in the cloud. And we have it packaged and deployable from the marketplaces within the different clouds. So you can literally spin it up at the click of an API in the cloud on instances in the cloud. So with all of these together, you can basically instantiate a Hammerspace set of machinery that can offer up this file system mesh. like we've been using the terminology we've been using now, anywhere. So it's like being able to take and spin up Snowflake and then just be able to install and run some VMs anywhere you want and boom, now you have a Snowflake service. And by the way, it is so complete that some of our customers, I would argue many aren't even using public clouds at all, they're using this just to run their own data centers in a cloud-like fashion, you know, where they have a data service that can span it all. >> Yeah and to Molly's first point, we would consider that, you know, cloud. Let me put you on the spot. If you had to describe conceptually without a chalkboard what an architectural diagram would look like for supercloud, what would you say? >> I would say it's to have the same runtime environment within every data center and defining that runtime environment as what it takes to schedule the execution of applications, so job scheduling, runtime stuff, and here we're talking Kubernetes, Slurm, other things that do job scheduling. We're talking about having a common way to, you know, instantiate compute resources. So a global compute environment, having a common compute environment where you can instantiate things that need computing. Okay? So that's the first part. And then the second is the data platform where you can have file block and object volumes, and have them available with the same APIs in each of these distributed data centers and have the exact same data omnipresent with the ability to control where the data is from one moment to the next, local, where all the data is instantiate. So my definition would be a common runtime environment that's bifurcate-- >> Oh. (attendees chuckling) We just lost them at the money slide. >> That's part of the magic makes people listen. We keep someone on pin and needles waiting. (attendees chuckling) >> That's good. >> Are you back, David? >> I'm on the edge of my seat. Common runtime environment. It was like... >> And just wait, there's more. >> But see, I'm maybe hyper-focused on the lower level of what it takes to host and run applications. And that's the stuff to schedule what resources they need to run and to get them going and to get them connected through to their persistence, you know, and their data. And to have that data available in all forms and have it be the same data everywhere. On top of that, you could then instantiate applications of different types, including relational databases, and data warehouses and such. And then you could say, now I've got, you know, now I've got these more application-level or structured data-level things. I tend to focus less on that structured data level and the application level and am more focused on what it takes to host any of them generically on that super pass layer. And I'll admit, I'm maybe hyper-focused on the pass layer and I think it's valid to include, you know, higher levels up the stack like the structured data level. But as soon as you go all the way up to like, you know, a very specific SAS service, I don't know that you would call that supercloud. >> Well, and that's the question, is there value? And Marianna Tessel from Intuit said, you know, we looked at it, we did it, and it just, it was actually negative value for us because connecting to all these separate clouds was a real pain in the neck. Didn't bring us any additional-- >> Well that's 'cause they don't have this pass layer underneath it so they can't even shop around, which actually makes it hard to stand up your own SAS service. And ultimately they end up having to build their own infrastructure. Like, you know, I think there's been examples like Netflix moving away from the cloud to their own infrastructure. Basically, if you're going to rent it for more than a few months, it makes sense to build it yourself, if it's at any kind of scale. >> Yeah, for certain components of that cloud. But if the Goldman Sachs came to you, David, and said, "Hey, we want to collaborate and we want to build "out a cloud and essentially build our SAS system "and we want to do that with Hammerspace, "and we want to tap the physical infrastructure "of not only our data centers but all the clouds," then that essentially would be a SAS, would it not? And wouldn't that be a Super SAS or a supercloud? >> Well, you know, what they may be using to build their service is a supercloud, but their service at the end of the day is just a SAS service with global reach. Right? >> Yeah. >> You know, look at, oh shoot. What's the name of the company that does? It has a cloud for doing bookkeeping and accounting. I forget their name, net something. NetSuite. >> NetSuite. NetSuite, yeah, Oracle. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> Oracle acquired them, right? Is NetSuite a supercloud or is it just a SAS service? You know? I think under the covers you might ask are they using supercloud under the covers so that they can run their SAS service anywhere and be able to shop the venue, get elasticity, get all the benefits of cloud in the, to the benefit of their service that they're offering? But you know, folks who consume the service, they don't care because to them they're just connecting to some endpoint somewhere and they don't have to care. So the further up the stack you go, the more location-agnostic it is inherently anyway. >> And I think it's, paths is really the critical layer. We thought about IAS Plus and we thought about SAS Minus, you know, Heroku and hence, that's why we kind of got caught up and included it. But SAS, I admit, is the hardest one to crack. And so maybe we exclude that as a deployment model. >> That's right, and maybe coming down a level to saying but you can have a structured data supercloud, so you could still include, say, Snowflake. Because what Snowflake is doing is more general purpose. So it's about how general purpose it is. Is it hosting lots of other applications or is it the end application? Right? >> Yeah. >> So I would argue general purpose nature forces you to go further towards platform down-stack. And you really need that general purpose or else there is no real distinguishing. So if you want defensible turf to say supercloud is something different, I think it's important to not try to wrap your arms around SAS in the general sense. >> Yeah, and we've kind of not really gone, leaned hard into SAS, we've just included it as a deployment model, which, given the constraints that you just described for structured data would apply if it's general purpose. So David, super helpful. >> Had it sign. Define the SAS as including the hybrid model hold SAS. >> Yep. >> Okay, so with your permission, I'm going to add you to the list of contributors to the definition. I'm going to add-- >> Absolutely. >> I'm going to add this in. I'll share with Molly. >> Absolutely. >> We'll get on the calendar for the date. >> If Molly can share some specific language that we've been putting in that kind of goes to stuff we've been talking about, so. >> Oh, great. >> I think we can, we can share some written kind of concrete recommendations around this stuff, around the general purpose, nature, the common data thing and yeah. >> Okay. >> Really look forward to it and would be glad to be part of this thing. You said it's in February? >> It's in January, I'll let Molly know. >> Oh, January. >> What the date is. >> Excellent. >> Yeah, third week of January. Third week of January on a Tuesday, whatever that is. So yeah, we would welcome you in. But like I said, if it doesn't work for your schedule, we can prerecord something. But it would be awesome to have you in studio. >> I'm sure with this much notice we'll be able to get something. Let's make sure we have the dates communicated to Molly and she'll get my admin to set it up outside so that we have it. >> I'll get those today to you, Molly. Thank you. >> By the way, I am so, so pleased with being able to work with you guys on this. I think the industry needs it very bad. They need something to break them out of the box of their own mental constraints of what the cloud is versus what it's supposed to be. And obviously, the more we get people to question their reality and what is real, what are we really capable of today that then the more business that we're going to get. So we're excited to lend the hand behind this notion of supercloud and a super pass layer in whatever way we can. >> Awesome. >> Can I ask you whether your platforms include ARM as well as X86? >> So we have not done an ARM port yet. It has been entertained and won't be much of a stretch. >> Yeah, it's just a matter of time. >> Actually, entertained doing it on behalf of NVIDIA, but it will absolutely happen because ARM in the data center I think is a foregone conclusion. Well, it's already there in some cases, but not quite at volume. So definitely will be the case. And I'll tell you where this gets really interesting, discussion for another time, is back to my old friend, the SSD, and having SSDs that have enough brains on them to be part of that fabric. Directly. >> Interesting. Interesting. >> Very interesting. >> Directly attached to ethernet and able to create a data mesh global file system, that's going to be really fascinating. Got to run now. >> All right, hey, thanks you guys. Thanks David, thanks Molly. Great to catch up. Bye-bye. >> Bye >> Talk to you soon.

>> TheCUBE presents UI Path Forward Five brought to you by UI Path. >> Welcome back to UI Path Forward Five. You're watching The Cubes, Walter Wall coverage. This is day one, Dave Vellante, with my co-host Dave Nicholson. We're taking RPA to intelligence automation. We're going from point tools to platforms. Neeraj Mathur is here. He's the director of Intelligent Automation at VMware. Yes, VMware. We're not going to talk about vSphere or Aria, or maybe we are, (Neeraj chuckles) but he's joined by Thomas Stocker who's a principal product manager at UI Path. And we're going to talk about testing automation, automating the testing process. It's a new sort of big vector in the whole RPA automation space. Gentleman, welcome to theCUBE. Good to see you. >> Neeraj: Thank you very much. >> Thomas: Thank you. >> So Neeraj, as we were saying, Dave and I, you know, really like VMware was half our lives for a long time but we're going to flip it a little bit. >> Neeraj: Absolutely. >> And talk about sort of some of the inside baseball. Talk about your role and how you're applying automation at VMware. >> Absolutely. So, so as part of us really running the intelligent automation program at VMware, we have a quite matured COE for last, you know four to five years, we've been doing this automation across the enterprise. So what we have really done is, you know over 45 different business functions where we really automated quite a lot different processes and tasks on that. So as part of my role, I'm really responsible for making sure that we are, you know, bringing in the best practices, making sure that we are ready to scale across the enterprise but at the same time, how, you know, quickly we are able to deliver the value of this automation to our businesses as well. >> Thomas, as a product manager, you know the product, and the market inside and out, you know the competition, you know the pricing, you know how customers are using it, you know all the features. What's your area of - main area of focus? >> The main area of the UiPathT suite... >> For your role, I mean? >> For my role is the RPA testing. So meaning testing RPA workflows themselves. And the reason is RPA has matured over the last few years. We see that, and it has adopted a lot of best practices from the software development area. So what we see is RPA now becomes business critical. It's part of the main core business processes in corporation and testing it just makes sense. You have to continuously monitor and continuously test your automation to make sure it does not break in production. >> Okay. And you have a specific product for this? Is it a feature or it's a module? >> So RPA testing or the UiPath T Suite, as the name suggests it's a suite of products. It's actually part of the existing platform. So we use Orchestrator, which is the distribution engine. We use Studio, which is our idea to create automation. And on top of that, we build a new component, which is called the UiPath Test Manager. And this is a kind of analytics and management platform where you have an oversight on what happened, what went wrong, and what is the reason for automation to **bring. >> Okay. And so Neeraj, you're testing your robot code? >> Neeraj: Correct. >> Right. And you're looking for what? Governance, security, quality, efficiency, what are the things you're looking for? >> It's actually all of all of those but our main goal to really start this was two-front, right? So we were really looking at how do we, you know, deliver at a speed with the quality which we can really maintain and sustain for a longer period, right? So to improve our quality of delivery at a speed of delivery, which we can do it. So the way we look at testing automation is not just as an independent entity. We look at this as a pipeline of a continuous improvement for us, right? So how it is called industry as a CICD pipeline. So testing automation is one of the key component of that. But the way we were able to deliver on the speed is to really have that end to end automation done for us to also from developers to production and using that pipeline and our testing is one piece of that. And the way we were able to also improve on the quality of our delivery is to really have automated way of doing the code reviews, automated way of doing the testing using this platform as well. and then, you know, how you go through end to end for that purpose. >> Thomas, when I hear testing robots, (Thomas chuckles) I don't care if it's code or actual robots, it's terrifying. >> It's terrify, yeah. >> It's terrifying. Okay, great. You, you have some test suite that says look, Yeah, we've looked at >> The, why is that terrifying? >> What's, It's terrifying because if you have to let it interact with actual live systems in some way. Yeah. The only way to know if it's going to break something is either you let it loose or you have some sort of sandbox where, I mean, what do you do? Are you taking clones of environments and running actual tests against them? I mean, think it's >> Like testing disaster recovery in the old days. Imagine. >> So we are actually not running any testing in the production live environment, right? The way we build this actually to do a testing in the separate test environment on that as well by using very specific test data from business, which you know, we call that as a golden copy of that test data because we want to use that data for months and years to come. Okay. Right? Yeah. So not touching any production environmental Facebook. >> Yeah. All right. Cause you, you can imagine >> Absolutely >> It's like, oh yeah we've created a robotic changes baby diapers let's go ahead and test it on these babies. [Collective Laughter] Yeah >> I don't think so. No, no, But, but what's the, does it does it matter if there's a delta between the test data and the, the, the production data? How, how big is that delta? How do you manage that? >> It does matter. And that's where actually that whole, you know, angle of how much you can, can in real, in real life can test right? So there are cases where you would have, even in our cases where, you know, the production data might be slightly different than the test data itself. So the whole effort goes into making sure that the test data, which we are preparing here, is as close to the products and data itself, right? It may not be a hundred percent close but that's the sort of you know, boundary or risk you may have to take. >> Okay. So you're snapshotting, that moving it over, a little V motion? >> Neeraj: Yeah. >> Okay. So do you do this for citizen developers as well? Or is you guys pretty much center of excellence writing all the bots? >> No, right now we are doing only for the unattended, the COE driven bots only at this point of time, >> What are you, what are your thoughts on the future? Because I can see I can see some really sloppy citizen coders. >> Yeah. Yeah. So as part of our governance, which we are trying to build for our citizen developers as well, there there is a really similar consideration for that as well. But for us, we have really not gone that far to build that sort of automation right >> Now, narrowly, just if we talk about testing what's the business impact been on the testing? And I'm interested in overall, but the overall platform but specifically for the testing, when did that when did you start implementing that and, and what what has been the business benefit? >> So the benefit is really on the on the speed of the delivery, which means that we are able to actually deliver more projects and more automation as well. So since we adopted that, we have seen our you know, improvement, our speed is around 15%, right? So, so, you know, 15% better speed than previously. What we have also seen is, is that our success rate of our transactions in production environment has gone to 96% success rate, which is, again there is a direct implication on business, on, on that point of view that, you know, there's no more manual exception or manual interaction is required for those failure scenarios. >> So 15% better speed at what? At, at implementing the bots? At actually writing code? Or... >> End to end, Yes. So from building the code to test that code able to approve that and then deploy that into the production environment after testing it this is really has improved by 15%. >> Okay. And, and what, what what business processes outside of sort of testing have you sort of attacked with the platform? Can you talk to that? >> The business processes outside of testing? >> Dave: Yeah. You mean the one which we are not testing ourself? >> Yeah, no. So just the UI path platform, is it exclusively for, for testing? >> This testing is exclusively for the UI path bots which we have built, right? So we have some 400 plus automations of UI bots. So it's meant exclusively >> But are you using UI path in any other ways? >> No, not at this time. >> Okay, okay. Interesting. So you started with testing? >> No, we started by building the bots. So we already had roughly 400 bots in production. When we came with the testing automation, that's when we started looking at it. >> Dave: Okay. And then now building that whole testing-- >> Dave: What are those other bots doing? Let me ask it that way. >> Oh, there's quite a lot. I mean, we have many bots. >> Dave: Paint a picture if you want. Yeah. In, in finance, in auto management, HR, legal, IT, there's a lot of automations which are there. As I'm saying, there's more than 400 automations out there. Yeah. So so it's across the, you know, enterprise on that. >> Thomas. So, and you know, both of you have a have a view on this, but Thomas's views probably wider across other, other instances. What are the most common things that are revealed in tests that indicate something needs to be fixed? Yeah, so think of, think of a test, a test failure, an error. What are the, what are the most common things that happen? >> So when we started with building our product we conducted a, a survey among our customers. And without a surprise the main reason why automation breaks is change. >> David: Sure. >> And the problem here is RPA is a controlled process a controlled workflow but it runs in an uncontrollable environment. So typically RPA is developed by a C.O.E. Those are business and automation experts, but they operate in an environment that's driven by new patches new application changes ruled out by IT. And that's the main challenge here. You cannot control that. And so far, if you, if you do not proactively test what happens is you catch an issue in production when it already breaks, right? That's reactive, that's leads to maintenance to un-claim maintenance actually. And that was the goal right from the start from the taste suite to support our customers here and go over to proactive maintenance meaning testing before and finding those issues before the heat production. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I'm, I'm still not clear on, so you just gave a perfect example, changes in the environment. >> Yeah. >> So those changes are happening in the production environment. >> Thomas: Yeah. The robot that was happily doing its automation stuff before? >> Thomas: Yeah. Everyone was happy with it. Change happens. Robot breaks. >> Thomas: Yeah. >> Okay. You're saying you test before changes are implemented? To see if those changes will break the robot? >> Thomas: Yeah. >> Okay. How do you, how do you expose those changes that are in the, in a, that are going to be in a production environment to the robot? You must have a, Is is that part of the test environment? Does that mean that you have to have what fully running instances of like an ERP system? >> Thomas: Yeah. You know, a clone of an environment. How do you, how do you test that without having the live robot against the production environment? >> I think there's no big difference to standard software testing. Okay. The interesting thing is, the change actually happens earlier. You are affected on production side with it but the change happens on it side or on DevOps side. So you typically will test in a test environment that's similar to your production environment or probably in it in a pre-product environment. And the test itself is simply running your workflow that you want to test, but mark away any dependencies you don't want to invoke. You don't want to send a, a letter to a customer in a test environment, right? And then you verify that the result is what you actually expect, right? And as soon as this is not the case, you will be notified you will have a result, the fail result, and you can act before it breaks. So you can fix it, redeploy to production and you should be good now. >> But the, the main emphasis at VMware is testing your bots, correct? >> Neeraj: Testing your bots. Yes. Can I apply this to testing other software code? >> Yeah, yeah. You, you can, you can technically actually and Thomas can speak better than me on that to any software for that matter, but we have really not explored that aspect of it. >> David: You guys have pretty good coders, good engineers at VMware, but no, seriously Thomas what's that market looking like? Is that taking off? Are you, are you are you applying this capability or customers applying it for just more broadly testing software? >> Absolutely. So our goal was we want to test RPA and the application it relies on so that includes RPA testing as well as application testing. The main difference is typical functional application testing is a black box testing. So you don't know the inner implementation of of that application. And it works out pretty well. The big, the big opportunity that we have is not isolated Not isolated testing, isolated RPA but we talk about convergence of automation. So what we offer our customers is one automation platform. You create one, you create automation, not redundantly in different departments, but you create once probably for testing and then you reuse it for RPA. So that suddenly helps your, your test engineers to to move from a pure cost center to a value center. >> How, how unique is this capability in the industry relative to your competition and and what capabilities do you have that, that or, or or differentiators from the folks that we all know you're competing with? >> So the big advantage is the power of the entire platform that we have with UiPath. So we didn't start from scratch. We have that great automation layer. We have that great distribution layer. We have all that AI capabilities that so far were used for RPA. We can reuse them, repurpose them for testing. And that really differentiates us from the competition. >> Thomas, I I, I detect a hint of an accent. Is it, is it, is it German or >> It's actually Austrian. >> Austrian. Well, >> You know. Don't compare us with Germans. >> I understand. High German. Is that the proper, is that what's spoken in Austria? >> Yes, it is. >> So, so >> Point being? >> Point being exactly as I drift off point being generally German is considered to be a very very precise language with very specific words. It's very easy to be confused about between the difference the difference between two things automation testing and automating testing. >> Thomas: Yes. >> Because in this case, what you are testing are automations. >> Thomas: Yes. >> That's what you're talking about. >> Thomas: Yes. >> You're not talking about the automation of testing. Correct? >> Well, we talk about >> And that's got to be confusing when you go to translate that into >> Dave: But isn't it both? >> 50 other languages? >> Dave: It's both. >> Is it both? >> Thomas: It actually is both. >> Okay. >> And there's something we are exploring right now which is even, even the next step, the next layer which is autonomous testing. So, so far you had an expert an automation expert creating the automation once and it would be rerun over and over again. What we are now exploring is together with university to autonomously test, meaning a bot explores your application on the test and finds issues completely autonomously. >> Dave: So autonomous testing of automation? >> It's getting more and more complicated. >> It's more clear, it's getting clearer by the minute. >> Sorry for that. >> All right Neeraj, last question is: Where do you want to take this? What's your vision for, for VMware in the context of automation? >> Sure. So, so I think the first and the foremost thing for us is to really make it more mainstream for for our automation developer Excel, right? What I mean by that is, is to really, so so there is a shift now how we engage with our business users and SMEs. And I said previously they used to actually test it manually. Now the conversation changes that, hey can you tell us what test cases you want what you want us to test in an automated measure? Can you give us the test data for that so that we can keep on testing in a continuous manner for the months and years to come down? Right? The other part of the test it changes is that, hey it used to take eight weeks for us to build but now it's going to take nine weeks because we're going to spend an extra week just to automate that as well. But it's going to help you in the long run and that's the conversation. So to really make it as much more mainstream and then say that out of all these kinds of automation and bots which we are building, So we are not looking to have a test automation for every single bot which we are building. So we need to have a way to choose where their value is. Is it the quarter end processing one? Is it the most business critical one, or is it the one where we are expecting of frequent changes, right? That's where the value of the testing is. So really bring that as a part of our whole process and then, you know >> We're still fine too. That great. Guys, thanks so much. This has been really interesting conversation. I've been waiting to talk to a real life customer about testing and automation testing. Appreciate your time. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks for everything. >> All right. Thank you for watching, keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and I will be back right after this short break. This is day one of theCUBE coverage of UI Path Forward Five. Be right back after this short break.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage of VMware Explore '22, formerly VMworld. This is our 12th year covering it. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellente. Two sets, three days of wall-to-wall coverage. We're starting to get the execs rolling in from VMware. Sumit Dhawan, president of VMware's here. Great to see you. Great keynote, day one. >> Great to be here, John. Great to see you, Dave. Day one, super exciting. We're pumped. >> And you had no problem with the keynotes. We're back in person. Smooth as silk up there. >> We were talking about it. We had to like dust off a cobweb to make some of these inputs. >> It's not like riding a bike. >> No, it's not. We had about 40% of our agencies that we had to change out because they're no longer in business. So, I have to give kudos to the team who pulled it together. They did a fabulous job. >> You do a great check, great presentation. I know you had a lot to crack in there. Raghu set the table. I know this is for him, this was a big moment to lay out the narrative, address the Broadcom thing right out of the gate, wave from Hock Tan in the audience, and then got into the top big news. Still a lot of meat on the bone. You get up there, you got to talk about the use cases, vSphere 8, big release, a lot of stuff. Take us through the keynote. What was the important highlights for you to share, the folks watching that didn't see the keynote or wanted to get your perspective? >> Well, first of all, did any of you notice that Raghu was running on the stage? He did not do that in rehearsal. (John chuckles) I was a little bit worried, but he really did it. >> I said, I betcha that was real. (everyone chuckles) >> Anyways, the jokes aside, he did fabulous. Lays out the strategy. My thinking, as you said, was to first of all speak with their customers and explain how every enterprise is facing with this concept of cloud chaos that Raghu laid out and CVS Health story sort of exemplifies the situation that every customer is facing. They go in, they start with cloud first, which is needed, I think that's the absolutely right approach. Very quickly build out a model of getting a cloud ops team and a platform engineering team which oftentimes be a parallel work stream to a private cloud infrastructure. Great start. But as Roshan, the CIO at CVS Health laid out, there's an inflection point. And that's when you have to converge these because the use cases are where stakeholders, this is the lines of businesses, app developers, finance teams, and security teams, they don't need this stove piped information coming at 'em. And the converge model is how he opted to organize his team. So we called it a multi-cloud team, just like a workspace team. And listen, our commitment and innovations are to solve the problems of those teams so that the stakeholders get what they need. That's the rest of the keynote. >> Yeah, first of all, great point. I want to call out that inflection point comment because we've been reporting coming into VMworld with super cloud and other things across open source and down into the weeds and into the hood. The chaos is real. So, good call. I love how you guys brought that up there. But all industry inflection points, if you go back in history of the tech industry, at every single major inflection point, there was chaos, complexity, or an enemy proprietary. However you want to look at it, there was a situation where you needed to kind of reign in the chaos as Andy Grove would say. So we're at that inflection point, I think that's consistent. And also the ecosystem floor yesterday, the expo floor here in San Francisco with your partners, it was vibrant. They're all on this wave. There is a wave and an inflection point. So, okay. I buy that. So, if you buy the inflection point, what has to happen next? Because this is where we're at. People are feeling it. Some say, I don't have a problem but they're cut chaos such is the problem. So, where do you see that? How does VMware's team organizing in the industry and for customers specifically to solve the chaos, to reign it in and cross over? >> Yeah, you're a 100% right. Every inflection point is associated with some kind of a chaos that had to be reigned in. So we are focused on two major things right now which we have made progress in. And maybe third, we are still work in-progress. Number one is technology. Today's technology announcements are directly to address how that streamlining of chaos can be done through a cloud smart approach that we laid out. Our Aria, a brand new solution for management, significant enhancements to Tanzu, all of these for public cloud based workloads that also extend to private cloud. And then our cloud infrastructure with newer capabilities with AWS, Azure, as well as with new innovations on vSphere 8 and vSAN 8. And then last but not the least, our continuous automation to enable anywhere workspace. All these are simple innovation that have to address because without those innovations, the problem is that the chaos oftentimes is created because lack of technology and as a result structure has to be put in place because tooling and technology is not there. So, number one goal we see is providing that. Second is we have to be independent, provide support for every possible cloud but not without being a partner of theirs. That's not an easy thing to do but we have the DNA as a company, we have done that with data centers in the past, even though being part of Dell we did that in the data center in the past, we have done that in mobility. And so we have taken the challenge of doing that with the cloud. So we are continually building newer innovation and stronger and stronger partnerships with cloud provider which is the basis of our commercial relationships with Microsoft Azure too, where we have brought Azure VMware solution into VMware cloud universal. Again, that strengthens the value of us being neutral because it's very important to have a Switzerland party that can provide these multi-cloud solutions that doesn't have an agenda of a specific cloud, yet an ecosystem, or at least an influence with the ecosystem that can bring going forward. >> Okay, so technology, I get that. Open, not going to be too competitive, but more open. So the question I got to ask you is what is the disruptive enabler to make that happen? 'Cause you got customers, partners and team of VMware, what's the disruptive enabler that's going to get you to that level? >> Over the hump. I mean, listen, our value is this community. All this community has one of two paths to go. Either, they become stove piped into just the public-private cloud infrastructure or they step up as this convergence that's happening around them to say, "You know what? I have the solution to tame this multi-cloud complexity, to reign the chaos," as you mentioned because tooling and technologies are available. And I know they work with the ecosystem. And our objective is to bring this community to that point. And to me, that is the best path to overcome it. >> You are the connective tissue. I was able to sit into the analyst meeting today. You were sort of the proxy for CVS Health where you talked about the private that's where you started, the public cloud ops team, bringing that together. The platform is the glue. That is the connective tissue. That's where Tanzu comes in. That's where Aria comes in. And that is the disruptive technology which it's hard to build that. >> From a technology perspective, it's an enabler of something that has never been done before in that level of comprehensiveness, from a more of a infrastructure side thinking perspective. Yes, infrastructure teams have enabled self-service portals. Yes, infrastructure teams have given APIs to developers, but what we are enabling through Tanzu is completely next level where you have a lot richer experience for developers so that they never ever have to think about the infrastructure at all. Because even when you enable infrastructure as API, that's still an API of the infrastructure. We go straight to the application tier where they're just thinking about authorized set of microservices. Containers can be orchestrated and built automatically, shifting security left where we're truly checking them or enabling them to check the security vulnerabilities as they're developing the application, not going into the production when they have to touch the infrastructure. To me, that's an enabler of a special power that this new multi-cloud team can have across cloud which they haven't had in the past. >> Yeah, it's funny, John, I'd say very challenging technically. The challenge in 2010 was the software mainframe, remember the marketing people killed that term. >> Yeah, exactly. >> But you think about that. We're going to make virtualization and the overhead associated with that irrelevant. We're going to be able to run any workload and VMware achieved that. Now you're saying we run anything anywhere, any Kubernete, any container. >> That's the reality. That's the chaos. >> And the cloud and that's a new, real problem. Real challenging problem that requires serious engineering. >> Well, I mean it's aspirational, right? Let's get the reality, right? So true spanning cloud, not yet there. You guys, I think your vision is definitely right on in the sense that we'd like the chaos and multicloud's a reality. The question is AWS, Azure, Google Cloud, other clouds, they're not going to sit still. No one's going to let VMware just come up and take everything. You got to enable so the market- >> True, true. I don't think this is the case of us versus them because there is so much that they have to express in terms of the value of every cloud. And this happened in the case of, by the way, whether you go into infrastructure or even workspace solutions, as long as the richest of the experience and richest of the controls are provided, for their cloud to the developers that makes the adoption of their cloud simpler. It's a win-win for every party. >> That's the key. I think the simplest. So, I want to ask you, this comes up a lot and I love that you brought that up, simple and self-service has proven developers who are driving the change, cloud DevOps developers. They're driving the change. They're in charge more than ever. They want self-service, easier to deploy. I want a test, if I don't like it, I want to throw it away. But if I like something, I want to stick with it. So it's got to be self-service. Now that's antithetical to the old enterprise model of solve complexity with more complexity. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So the question for you is as the president of VMware, do you feel good that you guys are looking out over the landscape where you're riding into the valley of the future with the demand being automation, completely invisible, abstraction layer, new use case scenarios for IT and whatever IT becomes. Take us through your mindset there, because I think that's what I'm hearing here at this year, VMware Explorer is that you guys have recognized the shift in demographics on the developer side, but ops isn't going away either. They're connecting. >> They're connected. Yeah, so our vision is, if you think about the role of developers, they have a huge influence. And most importantly they're the ones who are driving innovation, just the amount of application development, the number of developers that have emerged, yet remains the scarcest resource for the enterprise are critical. So developers often time have taken control over decision on infrastructure and ops. Why? Because infrastructure and ops haven't shown up. Not because they like it. In fact, they hate it. (John chuckles) Developers like being developers. They like writing code. They don't really want to get into the day to day operations. In fact, here's what we see with almost all our customers. They start taking control of the ops until they go into production. And at that point in time, they start requesting one by one functions of ops, move to ops because they don't like it. So with our approach and this sort of, as we are driving into the beautiful valley of multi-cloud like you laid out, in our approach with the cross cloud services, what we are saying is that why don't we enable this new team which is a reformatted version of the traditional ops, it has the platform engineering in it, the key skill that enables the developer in it, through a platform that becomes an interface to the developers. It creates that secure workflows that developers need. So that developers think and do what they really love. And the infrastructure is seamless and invisible. It's bound to happen, John. Think about it this way. >> Infrastructure is code. >> Infrastructure has code, and even next year, it's invisible because they're just dealing with the services that they need. >> So it's self-service infrastructure. And then you've got to have that capability to simplified, I'll even say automated or computational governance and security. So Chris Wolf is coming on Thursday. >> Yeah. >> Unfortunately I won't be here. And he's going to talk about all the future projects. 'Cause you're not done yet. The project narrows, it's kind of one of these boring, but important. >> Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in the oven coming out. >> There's really critical projects coming down the pipeline that support this multi-cloud vision, is it's early days. >> Well, this is the thing that we were talking about. I want to get your thoughts on. And we were commenting on the keynote review, Hock Tan bought VMware. He's a lot more there than he thought. I mean, I got to imagine him sitting in the front row going there's some stuff coming out of the oven. I didn't even, might not have known. >> He'd be like, "Hmm, this extra value." (everyone chuckles) >> He's got to be pretty stoked, don't you think? >> He is, he is. >> There's a lot of headroom on the margin. >> I mean, independent to that, I think the strategy that he sees is something that's compelling to customers which is what, in my assessment, speaking with him, he bought VMware because it's strategic to customers and the strategic value of VMware becomes even higher as we take our multi-cloud portfolio. So it's all great. >> Well, plus the ecosystem is now re-energize. It's always been energized, but energized cuz it's sort of had to be, cuz it's such a strong- >> And there was the Dell history there too. >> But, yeah it was always EMC, and then Dell, and now it's like, wow, the ecosystem's- >> Really it's released almost. I like this new team, we've been calling this new ops kind of vibe going refactored ops, as you said, that's where the action's happening because the developers want to go faster. >> They want to go faster. >> They want to go fast cuz the velocity's paying off of them. They don't want to have to wait. They don't want security reviews. They want policy. They want some guardrails. Show me the track. >> That's it. >> And let me drive this car. >> That's it because I mean think about it, if you were a developer, listen, I've been a developer. I never really wanted to see how to operate the code in production because it took time away for developing. I like developing and I like to spend my time building the applications and that's the goal of Aria and Tanzu. >> And then I got to mention the props of seeing project Monterey actually come out to fruition is huge because that's the future of computing architecture. >> I mean at this stage, if a customer from here on is modernizing their infrastructure and they're not investing in a holistic new infrastructure from a hardware and software perspective, they're missing out an opportunity on leveraging the numbers that we were showing, 20% increase in calls. Why would you not just make that investment on both the hardware and the software layer now to get the benefits for the next five-six years. >> You would and if I don't have to make any changes and I get 20% automatically. And the other thing, I don't know if people really appreciate the new curve that the Silicon industry is on. It blows away the history of Moore's law which was whatever, 35-40% a year, we're talking about 100% a year price performance or performance improvements. >> I think when you have an inflection point as we said earlier, there's going to be some things that you know is going to happen, but I think there's going to be a lot that's going to surprise people. New brands will emerge, new startups, new talent, new functionality, new use cases. So, we're going to watch that carefully. And for the folks watching that know that theCUBE's been 12 years with covering VMware VMworld, now VMware Explore, we've kind of met everybody over the years, but I want to point out a little nuance, Raghu thing in the keynote. During the end, before the collective responsibility sustainment commitment he had, he made a comment, "As proud as we are," which is a word he used, there's a lot of pride here at VMware. Raghu kind of weaved that in there, I noticed that, I want to call that out there because Raghu's proud. He's a proud product guy. He said, "I'm a product guy." He's delivering keynote. >> Almost 20 years. >> As proud as we are, there's a lot of pride at VMware, Sumit, talk about that dynamic because you mentioned customers, your customer is not a lot of churn. They've been there for a long time. They're embedded in every single company out there, pretty much VMware is in every enterprise, if not all, I mean 99%, whatever percentage it is, it's huge penetration. >> We are proud of three things. It comes down to number one, we are proud of our innovations. You can see it, you can see the tone from Raghu or myself, or other executives changes with excitement when we're talking about our technologies, we're just proud. We're just proud of it. We are a technology and product centric company. The second thing that sort of gets us excited and be proud of is exactly what you mentioned, which is the customers. The customers like us. It's a pleasure when I bring Roshan on stage and he talks about how he's expecting certain relationship and what he's viewing VMware in this new world of multi-cloud, that makes us proud. And then third, we're proud of our talent. I mean, I was jokingly talking to just the events team alone. Of course our engineers do amazing job, our sellers do amazing job, our support teams do amazing job, but we brought this team and we said, "We are going to get you to run an event after three years from not they doing one, we're going to change the name on you, we're going to change the attendees you're going to invite, we're going to change the fact that it's going to be new speakers who have never been on the stage and done that kind of presentation. >> You're also going to serve a virtual audience. >> And we're going to have a virtual audience. And you know what? They embraced it and they surprised us and it looks beautiful. So I'm proud of the talent. >> The VMware team always steps up. You never slight it, you've got great talent over there. The big thing I want to highlight as we end this day, the segment, and I'll get your thoughts and reactions, Sumit, is again, you guys were early on hybrid. We have theCUBE tape to go back into the video data lake and find the word hybrid mentioned 2013, 2014, 2015. Even when nobody was talking about hybrid. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Multicloud, Raghu, I talked to Raghu in 2016 when he did the Pat Gelsinger, I mean Raghu, Pat and Andy Jassy. >> Yeah. >> When that cloud thing got cleared up, he cleared that up. He mentioned multicloud, even then 2016, so this is not new. >> Yeah. >> You had the vision, there's a lot of stuff in the oven. You guys make announcements directionally, and then start chipping away at it. Now you got Broadcom buys VMware, what's in the oven? How much goodness is coming out that's like just hitting the fruits are starting to bear on the tree. There's a lot of good stuff and just put that, contextualize and scale that for us. What's in the oven? >> First of all, I think the vision, you have to be early to be first and we believe in it. Okay, so that's number one. Now having said that what's in the oven, you would see us actually do more controls across cloud. We are not done on networking side. Okay, we announced something as project Northstar with networking portfolio, that's not generally available. That's in the oven. We are going to come up with more capability on supporting any Kubernetes on any cloud. We did some previews of supporting, for example, EKS. You're going to see more of those cluster controls across any Kubernetes. We have more work happening on our telco partners for enablement of O-RAN as well as our edge solutions, along with the ecosystem. So more to come on those fronts. But they're all aligned with enabling customers multi-cloud through these five cross cloud services. They're all really, some of them where we have put a big sort of a version one of solution out there such as Aria continuation, some of them where even the version one's not out and you're going to see that very soon. >> All right. Sumit, what's next for you as the president? You're proud of your team, we got that. Great oven description of what's coming out for the next meal. What's next for you guys, the team? >> I think for us, two things, first of all, this is our momentum season as we call it. So for the first time, after three years, we are now being in, I think we've expanded, explored to five cities. So getting this orchestrated properly, we are expecting nearly 50,000 customers to be engaging in person and maybe a same number virtually. So a significant touchpoint, cuz we have been missing. Our customers have departed their strategy formulation and we have departed our strategy formulation. Getting them connected together is our number one priority. And number two, we are focused on getting better and better at making customers successful. There is work needed for us. We learn, then we code it and then we repeat it. And to me, those are the two key things here in the next six months. >> Sumit, thank you for coming on theCUBE. Thanks for your valuable time, sharing what's going on. Appreciate it. >> Always great to have chatting. >> Here with the president, the CEO's coming up next in theCUBE. Of course, we're John and Dave. More coverage after the short breaks, stay with us. (upbeat music)

>> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

>> Man Offscreen: Standby. Dave is coming you in 5, 4, 3, 2. >> We're back at the Big Apple, theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. Sahir Azam is here, he's the Chief Product Officer of MongoDB, and Guillermo Rauch who's the CEO of Vercel. Hot off the keynotes from this morning guys, good job. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for joining us here. Thanks for having us. Guillermo when it comes to modern web development, you know the back-end, the cloud guys got to it kind of sewn up, >> you know- >> Guillermo: Forget about it. >> But all the action's in the front end, and that's where you are. Explain Vercel. >> Yeah so Vercel is the company that pioneers front-end development as serverless infrastructure. So we built Next.js which is the most popular React framework in the world. This is what front-end engineers choose to build innovative UI's, beautiful websites. Companies like Dior and GitHub and TikTok and Twitch, which we mentioned in the keynote, are powering their entire dot-coms or all of their new parts of their dot-coms with Next.js. And Vercel is the serverless platform where you can deploy frameworks like in Next.js and others like Svelte and Vue to create really fast experiences on the web. >> So I hear, so serverless, I hear that's the hot trend. You guys made some announcements today. I mean when you look at the, we have spending data with our friends at ETR right down the street. I mean it's just off the charts, whether it's Amazon, Google, Azure Functions, I mean it's just exploding. >> Sahir: Yeah, it's I think in many ways, it's a natural trend. You know, we talk a lot about, whether it be today's keynote or another industry talks you see around our industry that developers are constantly looking for ways to focus on innovation and the business logic that defines their application and as opposed to managing the plumbing, and management of infrastructure. And we've seen this happen over and over again across every layer of the stack. And so for us, you know MongoDB, we have a bit of, you know sort of a lens of a broad spectrum of the market. We certainly have you know, large enterprises that are modernizing existing kind of core systems, then we have developers all over the world who are building the next big best thing. And that's what led us to partner with Vercel is just the bleeding edge of developers building in a new way, in a much more efficient way. And we wanted to make sure we provide a data platform that fits naturally in the way they want to work. >> So explain to our audience the trade-offs of serverless, and I want to get into sort of how you've resolved that. And then I want to hear from Guillermo, what that means for developers. >> Sahir: Yeah in our case, we don't view it as an either or, there are certain workloads and definitely certain companies that will gravitate towards a more traditional database infrastructure where they're choosing the configuration of their cluster. They want full control over it. And that provides, you know, certain benefits around cost predictability or isolation or perceived benefits at least of those things. And customers will gravitate towards that. Now on the flip side, if you're building a new application or you want the ability to scale seamlessly and not have to worry about any of the plumbing, serverless is clearly the easier model. So over the long term, we certainly expect to see as a mix of things, more and more serverless workloads being built on our platform and just generally in the industry, which is why we leaned in so heavily on investing in Atlas serverless. But the flexibility to not be forced into a particular model, but to get the same database experience across your application and even switch between them is an important characteristic for us as we build going forward. >> And you stressed the cost efficiency, and not having to worry about, you know, starting cold. You've architected around that, and what does that mean for a developer? >> Guillermo: For a developer it means that you kind of get the best of both worlds, right? Like you get the best possible performance. Front-end developers are extremely sensitive to this. That's why us pioneering this concept, serverless front-end, has put us in a very privileged position because we have to deliver that really quick time to first buy, that really quick paint. So any of the old trade-offs of serverless are not accepted by the market. You have to be extremely fast. You have to be instant to deliver that front-end content. So what we talked about today for example, with the Vercel Edge network, we're removing all of the cost of that like first hit. That cold start doesn't really exist. And now we're seeing it all across the board, going into the back-end where Mongo has also gotten rid of it. >> Dave: How do you guys collaborate? What's the focus of integration specifically from, you know, an engineering resource standpoint? >> Yeah the main idea is, idea to global app in seconds, right? You have your idea. We give you the framework. We don't give you infrastructure primitives. We give you all the necessary tools to start your application. In practice this means you host it in a Git repo. You import it onto Vercel. You install the Mongo integration. Now your front-end and your data back-end are connected. And then your application just goes global in seconds. >> So, okay. So you've abstracted away the complexity of those primitives, is that correct? >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> Do do developers ever say, "That's awesome but I'd like to get to them every now and then." Or do you not allow that? >> Definitely. We expose all the underlying APIs, and the key thing we hear is that, especially with the push for usage-based billing models, observability is of the essence. So at any time you have to be able to query, in real time, every data point that the platform is observing. We give you performance analytics in real time to see how your front-end is performing. We give you statistics about how often you're querying your back-end and so on, and your cache hit ratios. So what I talked about today in the keynote is, it's not just about throwing more compute at the problem, but the ability to use the edge to your advantage to memoize computation and reuse it across different visits. >> When we think of mission critical historically, you know, you think about going to the ATM, right? I mean a financial transaction. But Mongo is positioning for mission critical applications across a variety of industries. Do we need to rethink what mission critical means? >> I think it's all in the eye of the beholder so to speak. If you're a new business starting up, your software and your application is your entire business. So if you have a cold start latency or God forbid something actually goes down, you don't have a business. So it's just as mission critical to that founder of a new business and new technology as it is, you know, an established enterprise that's running sort of a more, you know, day-to-day application that we may all interact with. So we treat all of those scenarios with equal fervor and importance right? And many times, it's a lot of those new experiences that the become the day-to-day experiences for us globally, and are super important. And we power all of those, whether it be an established enterprise all the way to the next big startup. >> I often talk about COVID as the forced march to digital. >> Sahir: Mm-Hmm. >> Which was obviously a little bit rushed, but if you weren't in digital business, you were out of business. And so now you're seeing people step back and say, "All right, let's be more thoughtful about our digital transformation. We've got some time, we've obviously learned some things made some mistakes." It's all about the customer experience though. And that becomes mission critical right? What are you seeing Guillermo, in terms of the patterns in digital transformation now that we're sort of exiting the isolation economy? >> One thing that comes to mind is, we're seeing that it's not always predictable how fast you're going to grow in this digital economy. So we have customers in the ecommerce space, they do a drop and they're piggybacking on serverless to give them that ability to instantly scale. And they couldn't even prepare for some of these events. We see that a lot with the Web3 space and NFT drops, where they're building in such a way that they're not sensitive to this massive fluctuations in traffic. They're taking it for granted. We've put in so much work together behind the scenes to support it. But the digital native creator just, "Oh things are scaling from one second to the next like I'm hitting like 20,000 requests per second, no problem Vercel is handling it." But the amount of infrastructural work that's gone behind the scenes in support has been incredible. >> We see that in gaming all the time, you know it's really hard for a gaming company to necessarily predict where in the globe a game's going to be particularly hot. Games get super popular super fast if they're successful, it's really hard to predict. It's another vertical that's got a similar dynamic. >> So gaming, crypto, so you're saying that you're able to assist your customers in architecting so that the website doesn't crash. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> But at the same time, if the the business dynamic changes, they can dial down. >> Yeah. >> Right and in many ways, slow is the new down, right? And if somebody has a slow experience they're going to leave your site just as much as if it's- >> I'm out of here- >> You were down. So you know, it's really maintaining that really fast performance, that amazing customer experience. Because this is all measured, it's scientific. Like anytime there's friction in the process, you're going to lose customers. >> So obviously people are excited about your keynote, but what have they been saying? Any specific comments you can share, or questions that you got that were really interesting or? >> I'm already getting links to the apps that people are deploying. So the whole idea- >> Come on! >> All over the world. Yeah so it's already working I'm excited. >> So they were show they were showing off, "Look what I did" Really? >> Yeah on Twitter. >> That's amazing. >> I think from my standpoint, I got a question earlier, we were with a bunch of financial analysts and investors, and they said they've been talking to a lot of the customers in the halls. And just to see, you know, from the last time we were all in person, the number of our customers that are using multiple capabilities across this idea of a developer data platform, you know, certainly MongoDB's been a popular core database open source for a long time. But the new capabilities around search, analytics, mobile being adopted much more broadly to power these experiences is the most exciting thing from our side. >> So from 2019 to now, you're saying substantial uptick in adoption for these features? >> Yeah. And many of them are new. >> Time series as well, that's pretty new, so yeah. >> Yeah and you know, our philosophy of development at MongoDB is to get capabilities in the hands of customers early. Get that feedback to enrich and drive that product-market fit. And over the last three years especially, we've been transitioning from a single product kind of core, you know, non relational modern database to a data platform, a developer data platform that adds more and more capabilities to power these modern applications. And a lot of those were released during the pandemic. Certainly we talked about them in our virtual conferences and all the zoom meetings we had over the years. But to actually go talk to all these customers, this is the largest conference we've ever put on, and to get a sense of, wow all the amazing things they're doing with them, it's definitely a different feeling when we're all together. >> So that's interesting, when you have such a hot product, product-led growth which is what Mongo has been in, and you add these new features. They're coming from the developers who are saying, "Hey, we need this." >> Yip. >> Okay so you have a pretty high degree of confidence, but how do you know when you have product-market fit? I mean, is it adoption, usage, renewals? What's your metric? >> Yeah I think it's a mix of quantitative measures that you know, around conversion rates, the size of your funnel, the retention rate, NPS which obviously can be measured, but also just qualitative. You know when you're talking to a developer or a technology executive around what their needs are, and then you see how they actually apply it to solve a problem, it's that balance between the qualitative and the quantitative measurement of things. And you can just sort of, frankly you can feel it. You can see it in the numbers sure, but you can kind of feel that excitement, you can see that adoption and what it empowers people to do. And so to me, as a product leader, it's always a blend of those things. If you get too obsessed with purely the metrics, you can always over optimize something for the wrong reason. So you have to bring in that qualitative feedback to balance yourself out. >> Right. >> Guillermo, what's next? What do you not have that you want from Sahir and Mongo? >> So the natural next step for serverless computing is, is the Edge. So we have to auto-scale, we have to tolerate fares. We have to be avail. We have to be easy, but we have to be global. And right now we've been doing this by using a lot of techniques like caching and replication and things like this. But the future's about personalizing even more to each visitor depending on where they are. So if I'm in New York, I want to get the latest offers for New York on demand, just for me, and using AI to continue to personalize that experience. So giving the developer these tools in a way where it feels natural to build an application like this. It doesn't feel like, "Oh I'm going to do this year 10 if I make it, I'm going to do it since the very beginning." >> Dave: Okay interesting. So that says to me that I'm not going to make a round trip to the cloud necessarily for that experience. So I'm going to have some kind, Apple today, at the Worldwide Developer Conference announced the M2, right. I've been looking at the M1 Ultra, and I'm going wow look at that! And so- >> Sahir: You were talking about that new one backstage. >> I mean it's this amazing pace of Silicon development and they're focusing on the NPU and you look at what Tesla's doing. I mean it's just incredible. So you're going to have some new hardware architecture that emerges. Most of the AI that's done today is modeling in the cloud. You're going to have a real time inferencing at the Edge. So that's not going to do the round trip. There's going to be a data store there, I think it has to be. You're going to persist some of the data, maybe not all of it. So it's a whole new architecture- >> Sahir: Absolutely. >> That's developing. That sounds very disruptive. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> How do you think about that, and how does Mongo play there? Guillermo first. >> What I spent a lot of time thinking about is obviously the developer experience, giving the programmer a programming model that is natural, intuitive, and produces its great results. So if they have to think about data that's local because of regulatory reasons for example, how can we let the framework guide them to success? I'm just writing an application I deployed to the cloud and then everything else is figured out. >> Yeah or speed of light is another challenge. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> How can we overcome the speed of light is our next task for sure. >> Well you're working on that aren't you? You've got the best engineers on that one. (Sahir and Guillermo laugh) >> We can solve a lot of problems, I'm not sure of that one. >> So Mongo plays in that scenario or? >> Yeah so I think, absolutely you know, we've been focused heavily on becoming the globally distributed cloud data layer. The back-end data layer that allows you to persist data to align with performance and move data where it needs to be globally or deal with data sovereignty, data nationalism that's starting to rise, but absolutely there is more data being pushed out to the Edge, to your point around processing or inference happening at the Edge. And there's going to be a globally distributed front-end layer as well, whether data and processing takes apart. And so we're focused on one, making sure the data connectivity and the layer is all connected into one unified architecture. We do that in combination with technologies that we have that do with mobility or edge distribution and synchronization of data with realm. And we do it with partnerships. We have edge partnerships with AWS and Verizon. We have partnerships with a lot of CVM players who are building out that Edge platform and making sure that MongoDB is either connected to it or just driving that synchronization back and forth. >> I call that unified experience super cloud, Robbie Belson from Verizon the cloud continuum, but that consistent experience for developers whether you're on Prim, whether you're in you know, Azure, Google, AWS, and ultimately the Edge. That's the big- >> That's where it's going. >> White space right now I'm hearing, Guillermo, right? >> I think it'll define the next generation of how software is built. And we're seeing this almost like a coalition course between some of the ideas that the Web3 developers are excited about, which is like decentralization almost to the extreme. But the Web2 also needs more decentralization, because we're seeing it with like, the data needs to be local to me, I need more privacy. I was looking at the latest encryption features in Mongo, like I think both Web2 need to incorporate more of the ideas of Web3 and vice versa to create the best possible consumer experience. Privacy matters more than ever before. Latency for conversion matters more than ever before. And regulations are changing. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> And you talked about Web3 earlier, talked about new protocols, a new distributed you know, decentralized system emerging, new hardware architectures. I really believe we really think that new economics are going to bleed back into the data center, and yeah every 15 years or so this industry gets disrupted. >> Sahir: Yeah. >> Guillermo: Absolutely. >> You know you ain't see nothing yet guys. >> We all talked about hardware becoming commoditized 10, 15 years ago- >> Yeah of course. >> We get the virtualization, and it's like nope not at all. It's actually a lot of invention happening. >> The lower the price the more the consumption. So guys thanks so much. Great conversation. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate your time. >> Really appreciate it I enjoyed the conversation. >> All right and thanks for watching. Keep it right there. We'll be back with our next segment right after this short break. Dave Vellante for theCUBE's coverage of MongoDB World 2022. >> Man Offscreen: Clear. (clapping) >> All right wow. Don't get up. >> Sahir: Okay. >> Is that a Moonwatch? >> Sahir: It is a Speedmaster but it's that the-

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to the special CUBE presentation of the AWS Partner Showcase season one, episode two. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. We've got two great guest here. Douglas Ko, Director of product marketing at Cohesity and Sabina Joseph General Manager of AWS, Amazon Web Services. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you for having us. >> Great to see you Sabina and Douglas. Great to see you, congratulations at Cohesity. Loved the shirt, got the colors wearing there on Cohesity, Always good I can't miss your booth at the shows, can't wait to get back in person, but thanks for coming in remotely. I got to say it's super excited to chat with you, appreciate it. >> Yeah, pleasure to be here. >> What are the trends you're seeing in the market when it comes to ransomware threats right now. You guys are in the middle of it right now more than ever. I was hearing more and more about security, cloud scale, cloud refactoring. You guys are in the middle of it. What's the latest trends in ransomware? >> Yeah, I have to say John, it's a pleasure to be here but on the other hand, when you asked me about ransomware, right? The data and the statistics are pretty sobering right now. If we look at what just happened in 2020 to 2021, we saw a tenfold increase in a ransomware attacks. We also saw the prediction of a ransomware attack happening every 11 seconds meaning by the time I finished this sentence there's going to be another company falling victim to ransomware. And it's also expected by 2031 that the global impact of ransomware across businesses will be over $260 billion, right? So, that's huge. And even at Cohesisity, right, what we saw, we did our own survey, and this one actually directly to end users and consumers. And what we found was over 70% of them would reconsider doing business with a company that paid a ransom. So all these things are pretty alarming and pretty big problems that we face today in our industry. >> Yeah, there's so many dimensions to it. I mean, you guys at Cohesity have been doing a while. It's being baked in from day one, security in the cloud and backup recovery, all that is kind of all in one thing now. So to protect against ransomware and other threats is huge Sabina, I got to ask you Amazon's view of ransomware is serious. You guys take it very seriously. What's the posture and specifically, what is AWS doing to protect customers from this threat? >> Yeah, so as Doug mentioned, right, there's no industry that's immune to ransomware attacks. And just as so we all level set, right? What it means is somebody taking control over and locking your data as an individual or as a company, and then demanding a ransom for it, right? According to the NIST, the National Institute of Standards and Technology cybersecurity framework, there are basically five main functions which are needed in order to plan and manage these kind of cybersecurity ransomware attacks. They go across identifying what do you need to protect, actually implementing the things that you need in order to protect yourself, detecting things if there is an attack that's going on, then also responding, how do you get out of this attack? And then bringing things, recovery, right? Bringing things back to where they were before the attack. As we all know, AWS takes security very seriously. We want to make sure that our customer's data is always protected. We have a number of native security solutions, but we are also looking to see how we can work with partners. And this is in fact when in the fall of 2019, the Cohesity CEO, Mohit Aron, myself and a couple of us, we met and we brainstorm, what could we do something that is differentiated in the market? When we built this data management as a service native solution on top of AWS, it's a first of a kind solution, John. It doesn't exist anywhere else in the market, even to even today. And we really focused on using the well architected review, the five pillars of security, reliability, operational excellence, performance, and cost optimization. And we built this differentiated solution together, and it was launched in April, 2020. And then of course from a customer viewpoint, they should use a comprehensive set of solutions. And going back to that security, that cyber security framework that I mentioned, the Cohesity data management as a service solution really falls into that recovery, that last area that I mentioned and solution actually provides, granular management of data, protection of data. Customers can spin up things very quickly and really scale their solution across the globe. And ensure that there is compliance, no matter how many times we do data changes, ads and so on across the world. >> Yeah, Sabina, that's a great point about that because a lot of the ransomware actually got bad actors, but also customers can misconfigure things. They don't follow the best practice. So having that native solutions are super important. So that's a great call out. Douglas, I got to go back to you because you're on the Cohesity side and a the partner of AWS. They have all these best practices that for the good actors, got to pay attention to the best practices and the bad actors also trying to get in creates a two, challenge an opportunity. So how do organizations protect their data against these attacks? And also how do they maintain their best practices? Because that's half the battle too, is the best practices to make sure you're following the guidelines on AWS side, as well as protecting the attacks. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, absolutely. First and foremost, right? As an organization, you need to understand how ransomware operates and how it's evolved over the years. And when you first look at it, Sabina already mentioned it, they started with consumers, small businesses, attacking their data, right? And some of these, consumers or businesses didn't have any backup. So the first step is just to make sure your data is backed up, but then the criminals kind of went up market, right? They understood that big organizations had big pocket and purses. So they went after them and the larger organizations do have backup and recovery solutions in place. So the criminals knew that they had to go deeper, right? And what they did was they went after the backup systems themselves and went to attack, delete, tamper with those backup systems and make it difficult or impossible to recover. And that really highlighted some solutions is out there that had some vulnerabilities with their data immutability and capabilities around WORM. And those are areas we suggest customers look at, that have immutability and WORM. And more recently again, given the way attacks have happened now is really to add another layer of defense and protection. And that includes, traditionally what we used to call, the 3-2-1 rule. And that basically means, three copies of data on two different sets of media with one piece of that data offsite, right? And in today's world and the cloud, right? That's a great opportunity to kind of modernize your environment. I wish that was all that ransomware guys we're doing right now and the criminals were doing, but unfortunately that's not the case. And what we've seen is over the past two years specifically, we've seen a huge increase in what you would call data theft or data exfiltration. And that essentially is them taking that data, a specific sense of the data and they're threatening to expose it to the dark web or selling it to the highest bidder. So in this situation it's honestly very difficult to manage. And the biggest thing you could do is obviously harden your security systems, but also you need a good understanding about your data, right? Where all that sensitive information is, who has access to it and what are the potential risks of that data being exposed. So that takes another step in terms of leveraging a bunch of technologies to help with that problem set. >> What can businesses do from an architectural standpoint and platform standpoint that you guys see there's key guiding principles around how their mindset should be? What's the examples of other approaches- >> Yeah. >> Approach here? >> No, I think they are both us at Cohesity and I'll speak for Sabina, AWS, we believe in a platform approach. And the reason for that is this a very complicated problem and the more tools and more things you have in there, you add risk of complexity, even potential new attack surfaces that the criminals can go after. So we believe the architecture approach should kind of have some key elements. One is around data resiliency, right? And that again comes from things like data encryption, your own data is encrypted by your own keys, that the data is immutable and has that, right, want to read many or WORM capabilities, so the bad guys can't temper with your data, right? That's just step one. Step two is really understanding and having the right access controls within your environment, right? And that means having multi factor authentication, quorum, meaning having two keys for the closet before you can actually have access to it. But it's got to go beyond there as well too. We got to leverage some newer technologies like AI and machine learning. And that can help you with detection and analysis of both where all your sensitive information is, right? As well as understanding potential anomalies that could signify attack or threat in progress. So, those are all key elements. And the last one of course is I think it takes a village, right? To fight the ransomware war. So we know we can't do it alone so, that's why we partner with people like AWS. That's why we also partner with other people in the security space to ensure you really have a full ecosystem support to manage all those things around that framework. >> That's awesome. Before I get to Sabina, I want to get into the relationship real quick, but I want to come back and highlight what you said about the data management as a service. This is a joint collaboration. This is some of the innovation that Cohesity and AWS are bringing to the market to combat ransomware. Can you elaborate more on that piece 'cause this is important. It's a collaboration that we're going to gather. So it's a partner and you guys were going to take us through what that means for the customer and to you guys. I mean, that's a compelling offering. >> So when we start to work with partners, right? we want to make sure that we are solving a customer problem. That's the whole working backwards from a customer. We are adding something more that the customer could not do. That's why when either my team or me, we start to either work on a new partnership or a new solution, it's always focused on, okay, is this solution enabling our customer to do something that they couldn't do before? And this approach has really helped us, John, in enabling majority of the fortune 500 companies and 90% of the fortune 100 companies use partner solutions successfully. But it's not just focused on innovation and technology, it's also focused on the business side. How are we helping partners grow their business? And we've been scaling our field teams, our AWS sales teams globally. But what we realized is through partner feedback, in fact, that we were not doing a great job in helping our partners close those opportunities and also bring net new opportunities. So in our field, we actually introduced a new role called the ISV Success Manager, ISMs that are embedded in our field to help partners either close existing opportunities, but also bring net new opportunities to them. And then at re:Invent 2020, we also launched the ISB accelerate program, which enables our field teams, the AWS field teams to get incentive to work with our partners. Cohesity, of course, participates in all of these programs and has access to all of these resources. And they've done a great job in leveraging and bringing our field teams together, which has resulted in hundreds of wins for this data management as a service solution that was launched. >> So you're bringing customers to Cohesity. >> Absolutely. >> Okay, I got to get the side. So they're helping you, how's this relationship going? Could you talk about the relationship on the customer side? How's that going? Douglas, what's your take on that? >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's going great. That's why we chose to partner with AWS and to be quite honest, as Sabina mentioned, we really only launched data management and service back in 2020, late 2020. And at that time we launched with just one service then, right, when we first launched with backup as a service. Now about 15 months later, right? We're on the brink of launching four services that are running on AWS cloud. So, without the level of support, both from a go to market standpoint that Sabina mentioned as well as the engineering and the available technology services that are on the AWS Cloud, right? There's no way we would've been able to spin up new services in such a short period of time. >> Is that Fort Knox and Data Govern, those are the services you're talking about Or is that- >> Yeah, so let me walk you through it. Yeah, so we have Cohesity DataProtect, which is our backup as a service solution. And that helps customers back their data to the cloud, on-prem, SaaS, cloud data like AWS, all in a single service and allows you to recover from ransomware, right? But a couple months ago we also announced a couple new services that you're alluding to John. And that is around Fort Knox and DataGovern. And basically Fort Knox, it is basically our SaaS solution for data isolation to a vaulted copy in the AWS cloud. And the goal of that is to really make it very simple for customers, not only to provide data immutability, but also that extra layer of protection by moving that data offsite and keeping it secure and vaulted away from cyber criminals and ransomware. And what we're doing is simplifying the whole process that normally is manual, right? You either do it manually with tapes or you'll manually replicate data to another data center or even to the cloud, but we're providing it as a service model, basically providing a modern 3-2-1 approach, right? For the cloud era. So, that's what's cool about Fort Knox, DataGovern, right? That's also a new service that we announced a few months ago and that really provides data governance and user behavior analytics services that leverages a lot that AI machine learning that everybody's so excited about. But really the application of that is to automate the discovery of sensitive data. So that could be your credit card numbers, healthcare records, a personal information of customers. So understanding where all that data is, is very important because that's the data that the criminals are going to go after and hold you host. So that's kind of step one. And then step two is again, leveraging machine learning, actually looking at how users are accessing and managing that data is also super important because that's going to help you identify potential anomalies, such as people sharing that data externally, which could be a threat. It could be in improper vault permissions, or other suspicious behaviors that could potentially signify data exfiltration or ransomware attack in progress. >> That's some great innovation. You got the data resiliency, of course, the control mechanism, but the AI piece machine learning is awesome. So congratulations on that innovation. Sabina, I'm listening to conversation and hear you talk. And it reminds me of our chat at re:Invent. And the whole theme of the conference was about the innovation and rapid innovations and how companies are refactoring with the cloud and this NextGen kind of journey. This is a fundamental pillar of AWS's rapid innovation concept with your partners. And I won't say it's new, but it's highly accelerated. How are you guys helping partners be with this rapid innovation, 'cause you're seeing benefits can come faster now, Agile is here. What are some of the programs that you're doing? How are you helping customers take advantage of the rapid innovation with the secret sauce of AWS? >> Yeah, so we have a number of leadership principles, John, and one of them, of course, is customer obsession. We are very focused on making sure we are developing things that our customers need. And we look for these very same qualities when we work with partners such as Cohesity. We want to make sure that it's a win-win approach for both sides because that's what will make the partnership durable over time. And this John, our leadership team at AWS, right from our CEO down believes that partners are critical to our success and as partners lean in, we lean in further. And that's why we signed the strategic collaboration agreement with Cohesity in April, 2020, where data management as a service solution was launch as part of that agreement. And for us, we've launched this solution now and as Doug said, what are the next things we could be doing, right? And just to go back a little bit when Cohesity was developing this solution with us, they used a number of our programs. Especially on the technical side, they used our SaaS factory program, which really helped them build this differentiated solution, especially focused around security compliance and cost optimizing the solution. Now that we've launched this solution, just like Doug mentioned, we are now focused on leveraging other services like security, AIML, and also our analytic services. And the reason for that is Cohesity, as we all know, protects, manages this data for the customer, but we want to make sure that the customer is extracting value from this data. That is why we continue to look, what can we do to continue to differentiate this solution in this market. >> That's awesome. You guys did a great job. I got to say, as it gets more scale, there's more needs for this rapid, I won't say prototyping, but rapid innovation and the Cohesity side does was you guys have been always on point on the back and recovery and now with security and the new modern application development, you guys are in the front row seats of all the action. So, I'll give you the final worry what's going on at Cohesity, give an update on what you guys are doing. What's it like over there these days? How's life give a quick plug for Cohesity. >> Yeah, Cohesity is doing great, right? We're always adding folks to the team, on our team, we have a few open racks open both on the marketing side, as well as the technology advocacy side. And of course, some of our other departments too, and engineering and sales and also our partner teams as well, working with AWS partners such as that. So, in our mind, the data delusion and growth is not going to slow down, right? So in this case, I think all tides raises all the boats here and we're glad to be innovative leader in this space and really looking to be really, the new wave of NextGen data management providers out there that leverages things like AI that leverages cybersecurity at the core and has an ecosystem of partners that we're working with, like AWS, that we're building out to help customers better manage their data. >> It's all great. Data is in the mid center of the value proposition. Sabina, great to see you again, thanks for sharing. And Douglas, great to see you too. Thanks for sharing this experience here in theCUBE. >> Thanks, John. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's AWS Partner Showcase special presentation, speeding innovation with AWS. I'm John Furrier your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Couchbase connect online, where the theme of the event is, or is modernized now. Yes, let's talk about that. And with me is Ravi, who's the senior vice president of engineering and the CTO at Couchbase Ravi. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you. >>I asked you what the new requirements are around modern applications. I've seen some, you know, some of your comments, you gotta be flexible, distributed, multimodal, mobile edge. It, that those are all the very cool sort of buzz words, smart applications. What does that all mean? And how do you put that into a product and make it real? >>Yeah, I think what has basically happened is that, uh, so far, uh, it's been a transition of sorts. And now we are come to a point where, uh, the tipping point and the tipping point has been, uh, uh, more because of COVID and there COVID has pushed us to a world where we are living, uh, in a sort of, uh, occasionally connected manner where our digital, uh, interactions, precede our physical interactions in one sense. So it's a world where we do a lot more stuff that's less than, uh, in a digital manner, as opposed to sort of making a more specific human contact that has really been the, uh, sort of accelerant to this modernized. Now, as a team in this process, what has happened is that so far all the databases and all the data infrastructure that we have built historically, are all very centralized. >>They're all sitting behind. Uh, they used to be in mainframes from where they came to like your own data centers, where we used to run hundreds of servers to where they're going now, which is the computing marvelous change to consumption-based computing, which is all cloud oriented now. And so, uh, but they are all centralized still. Uh, but where our engagement happens with the data is, uh, at the edge, uh, at your point of convenience at your point of consumption, not where the data is actually sitting. So this has led to, uh, you know, all those buzzwords, as you said, which is like, oh, well we need a distributed data infrastructure, where is the edge? Uh, but it just basically comes down to the fact that the data needs to be where you are engaging with it. And that means if you are doing it on your mobile phone, or if you are sitting, uh, doing something in your body or traveling, or whether you are in a subway, whether you're in a plane or a ship, wherever the data needs to come to you, uh, and be available as opposed to every time you going to the data, which is centrally sitting in some place. >>And that is the fundamental shift in terms of how the modern architecture needs to think, uh, when they, when it comes to digital transformation and, uh, transitioning their old applications to, uh, the, the modern infrastructure, because that's, what's going to define your customer experiences and your personalized experiences. Uh, otherwise people are basically waiting for that circle of death that we all know, uh, and blaming the networks and other pieces. The problem is actually, the data is not where you are engaging with. It has got to be fetched, you know, seven seas away. Um, and that is the problem that we are basically solving in this modern modernization of that data, data infrastructure. >>I love this conversation and I love the fact that there's a technical person that can kind of educate us on, on this, because date data by its very nature is distributed. It's always been distributed, but w w but distributed database has always been incredibly challenging, whether it was a global SIS Plex or an eventual consistency of getting recovery for a distributed architecture has been extremely difficult. You know, I hate that this is a terrible term, lots of ways to skin a cat, but, but you've been the visionary behind this notion of optionality, how to solve technical problems in different ways. So how do you solve that, that problem of, of, of, uh, of, uh, of a super rock solid database that can handle, you know, distributed data? Yes. >>So there are two issues that you're a little too over there with Forrest is the optionality piece of it, which is that same data that you have that requires different types of processing on it. It's almost like fractional distillation. It is, uh, like your crude flowing through the system. You start all over from petrol and you can end up with Vaseline and rayon on the other end, but the raw material, that's our data in one sense. So far, we never treated the data that way. That's part of the problem. It has always been very purpose built and cast first problem. And so you just basically have to recast it every time we want to look at the data. The first thing that we have done is make data that fluid. So when you're actually, uh, when you have the data, you can first look at it to perform. >>Let's say a simple operation that we call as a key value store operation. Given my ID, give him a password kind of scenarios, which is like, you know, there are customers of ours who have billions of user IDs in their management. So things get slower. How do you make it fast and easily available? Log-in should not take more than five minutes. Again, this is a, there's a class of problem that we solve that same data. Now, eventually, without you ever having to, uh, sort of do a casting it to a different database, you can now do a solid, uh, acquire. These are classic sequel queries, which is our next magic. We are a no SQL database, but we have a full functional sequel. The sequel has been the language that has talked to data for 40 odd years successfully. Every other database has come and try to implement their own QL query language, but they've all failed only sequel as which stood the test of time of 40 odd years. >>Why? Because there's a solid mathematics behind it. It's called a relational calculus. And what that helps you is, is, uh, basically, uh, look at the data and any common tutorial, uh, any, uh, any which way you look at the data. All it will come, uh, the data in a format that you can consume. That's the guarantee sort of gives you in one sense. And because of that, you can now do some really complex in the database signs, what we call us, predicate logic on top of that. And that gives you the ability to do the classic relational type queries, select star from where Canada stuff, because it's at an English level, it becomes easy to, so the same data, you didn't have to go move it to another database, do your, uh, sort of transformation of the data and all this stuff. Same day that you do this. >>Now, that's where the optionality comes in. Now you can do another piece of logic on top of this, which we call search. This is built on this concept of inverted index and TF IDF, the classic Google in a very simple terms, but Google tokenized search, you can do that in the same data without you ever having to move the data to a different format. And then on top of it, they can do what is known as a eventing or your own custom logic, which we all which we do on a, on programming language called Java script. And finally analytics and analytics is the ability to query the operational data in a different way. I'll talk budding. What was my sales of this widget year over year on December 1st week, that's a very complex question to ask, and it takes a lot of different types of processing. >>So these are different types of that's optionality with different types of processing on the same data without you having to go to five different systems without you having to recast the data in five different ways and find different application logic. So you put them in one place. Now is your second question. Now this has got to be distributed and made available in multiple cloud in your data center, all the way to the edge, which is the operational side of the, uh, the database management system. And that's where the distributed, uh, platform that we have built enables us to get it to where you need the data to be, you know, in a classic way, we call it CDN in the data as in like content delivery networks. So far do static, uh, uh, sort of moving of static content to the edges. Now we can actually dynamically move the data. Now imagine the richness of applications you can develop. >>The first part of the, the answer to my question, are you saying you could do this without skiing with a no schema on, right? And then you can apply those techniques. >>Uh, fantastic question. Yes. That's the brilliance of this database is that so far classically databases have always demanded that you first define a schema before you can write a single byte of data. Couchbase is one of the rare databases. I, for one don't know any other one, but there could be, let's give the benefit of doubt. It's a database which writes data first and then late binds to schema as we call it. It's a schema on read things. So because there is no schema, it is just a on document that is sitting inside. And Jason is the lingua franca of the web, as you very well know by now. So it just Jason that we manage, you can do key lookups of the Jason. You can do full credit capability, like a classic relational database. We even have cost-based optimizers and the other sophisticated pieces of technology behind it. >>You can do searching on it, using the, um, the full textual analysis pipeline. You can do ad hoc wedding on the analytic side, and you can write your own custom logic on it using our eventing capabilities. So that's, that's what it allows because we keep the data in the native form of Jason. It's not a data structure or a data schema imposed by a database. It is how the data is produced. And on top of it, we bring different types of logic, five different types of it's like the philosophy is bringing logic to data as opposed to moving data to logic. This is what we have been doing, uh, in the last 40 years because we developed various, uh, database systems and data processing systems of various points. In time in our history, we had key value stores. We had relational systems, we had search systems, we had analytical systems. >>We had queuing systems, all the systems, if you want to use any one of them, our answer has always been, just move the data to that system. Versus we are saying that do not move the data as we get bigger and bigger and data just moving this data is going to be a humongous problem. If you're going to be moving petabytes of data for this is not one to fly instead, bring the logic to the data. So you can now apply different types of logic to the data. I think that's what, in one sense, the optionality piece of this, >>As you know, there's plenty of schema-less data stores. They're just, they're called data swamps. I mean, that's what they, that's what they became, right? I mean, so this is some, some interesting magic that you're applying here. >>Yes. I mean, the one problem with the data swamps as you call them is that that was a little too open-ended because the data format itself could change. And then you do your, then everything became like a game data casting because it required you to have it in seven schema in one sense at the end of the day, for certain types of processing. So in that where a lot of gaps it's probably flooded, but it not really, uh, how do you say, um, keep to the promise that it actually meant to be? So that's why it was a swamp I need, because it was fundamentally not managing the data. The data was sitting in some file system, and then you are doing something, this is a classic database where the data is managed and you create indexes to manage it, and you create different types of indexes to manage it. You distribute the index, you distribute the data you have, um, like we were discussing, you have acid semantics on top of, and when you, when you put all these things together, uh, it's, it's, it's a tough proposition, but they have solved some really tough problems, which are good computer science stuff, computer science problems that we have to solve to bring this, to bring this, to bear, to bring this to the market. >>So you predicted the trend around multimodal and converged, uh, databases. Um, you kind of led Couchbase through that. I want to, I always ask this question because it's clearly a trend in the industry and it, it definitely makes sense from a simplification standpoint. And, and, and so that I don't have to keep switching databases or the flip side of that though, Ravi. And I wonder if you could give me your opinion on this is kind of the right tool for the right job. So I often say isn't that the Swiss army knife approach, we have a little teeny scissors and a knife. That's not that sharp. How do you respond to that? Uh, >>A great one. Um, my answer is always, I use another analogy to tackle that, but is that, have you ever accused a smartphone of being a Swiss army knife? No. No. Nobody does that because it's actually 40 functions in one is what a smartphone becomes. You never call your iPhone or your Android phone, a Swiss army knife, because here's the reason is that you can use that same device in the full capacity. That's what optionality is. It's not, I'm not, it's not like your good old one where there's a keyboard hiding half the screen, and you can do everything only through the keyboard without touching and stuff like that. That's not the whole devices available to you to do one type of processing when you want it. When you're done with that, it can do another completely different types of processing. Like as in a moment, it could be a Tom, Tom telling you all the directions, the next one, it's your PDA. >>Third one, it's a fantastic phone. Uh, four, it's a beautiful camera, which can do your f-stop management and give you a nice SLR quality picture. Right? So next moment is a video camera. People are shooting movies with this thing in Hollywood, these days for God's sake. So it gives you the full power of what you want to do when you want it. And now, if you just taught that iPhone is a great device or any smartphone is a great device, because you can do five things in one or 50 things in one, and at a certain level, they missed the point because what that device really enabled is not just these five things in one place. It becomes easy to consume and easy to operate. It actually started the app is the economy. That's the brilliance of bringing so many things in one place, because in the morning, you know, I get the alert saying that today you got to leave home at eight 15 for your nine o'clock meeting. >>And the next day it might actually say 8 45 is good enough because it knows where the phone is sitting. The geo position of it. It knows from my calendar where the meeting is actually happening. It can do a traffic calculation because it's got my map and all of the routes. And then it's gone there's notification system, which eventually pops up on my phone to say, Hey, you got to leave at this time. Now five different systems have to come together and they can because the data is in one place without that, you couldn't even do this simple function, uh, in a, in a sort of predictable manner in a, in a, in a manner that's useful to you. So I believe a database which gives you this optionality of doing multiple data processing on the same set of data allows you will allow you to build a class of products, which you are so far been able to struggling to build, because half the time you're running sideline to sideline, just, you know, um, integrating data from one system to the other. >>So I love the analogy with the smartphone. I w I want to, I want to continue it and double click on it. So I use this camera. I used to, you know, my kid had a game. I would bring the, the, the big camera, the 35 millimeter. So I don't use that anymore no way, but my wife does, she still uses the DSLR. So is, is there a similar analogy here? That those, and by the way, the camera, the camera shop in my town went out of business, you know? And so, so, but, but is there, is that a fair, where, in other words, those specialized databases, they say there still is a place for them, but they're getting >>Absolutely, absolutely great analogy and a great extension to the question. That's, that's the contrarian side of it in one sense is that, Hey, if everything can just be done in one, do you have a need for the other things? I mean, you gave a camera example where it is sort of, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Let me give you another one, which is actually less straight to the point better. I've been just because my, I, I listened to half of the music on the iPhone. Doesn't stop me from having my full digital receiver. And, you know, my Harman Kardon speakers at home because they haven't, they produce a kind of sounded immersive experience. This teeny little speaker has never in its lifetime intended to produce, right? It's the convenience. Yes. It's the convenience of convergence that I can put my earphones on and listen to all the great music. >>Yes, it's 90% there or 80% there. It depends on your audio file mess of your, uh, I mean, you don't experience the super specialized ones do not go away. You know, there are, there are places where, uh, the specialized use cases will demand a separate system to exist, but even there that has got to be very closed. Um, how do you say close, binding or late binding? I should be able to stream that song from my phone to that receiver so I can get it from those speakers. You can say that, oh, there's a digital divide between these two things done, and I can only play CDs on that one. That's not how it's going to work going forward. It's going to be, this is the connected world, right? As in, if I'm listening to the song in my car and then step off the car and walk into my living room, that's same songs should continue and play in my living room speakers. Then it's a world because it knows my preference and what I'm doing that all happened only because of this data flowing between all these systems. >>I love, I love that example too. When I was a kid, we used to go to Twitter, et cetera. And we'd to play around with, we take off the big four foot speakers. Those stores are out of business too. Absolutely. Um, now we just plug into Sonos. So that is the debate between relational and non-relational databases over Ravi. >>I believe so. Uh, because I think, uh, what had happened was the relational systems. Uh, I've been where the norm, they rule the roost, if you will, for the last 40 odd years, and then gain this no sequel movement, which was almost as though a rebellion from the relational world, we all inhibited, uh, uh, because we, it was very restrictive. It, it had the schema definition and the schema evolution as we call it, all those things, they were like, they required a committee, they required your DBA and your data architect. And you have to call them just to add one column and stuff like that. And the world had moved on. This was the world of blogs and tweets and, uh, you know, um, mashups and, um, uh, uh, a different generation of digital behavior, digital, native people now, um, who are operating in these and the, the applications, the, the consumer facing applications. >>We are living in this world. And yet the enterprise ones were still living in the, um, in the other, the other side of the divide. So all came this solution to say that we don't need SQL. Actually, the problem was never sequel. No sequel was, you know, best approximation, good marketing name, but from a technologist perspective, the problem was never the query language, no SQL was not the problem, the schema limitations, and the inability for these, the system to scale, the relational systems were built like, uh, airplanes, which is that if, uh, San Francisco Boston, there is a flight route, it's so popular that if you want to add 50 more seats to it, the only way you can do that is to go back to Boeing and ask them to get you a set in from 7 3 7 2 7 7 7, or whatever it is. And they'll stick you with a billion dollar bill on the alarm to somehow pay that by, you know, either flying more people or raising the rates or whatever you have to do. >>These are called vertically scaling systems. So relational systems are vertically scaling. They are expensive. Versus what we have done in this modern world, uh, is make the system how it is only scaling, which is more like the same thing. If it's a train that is going from San Francisco to Boston, you need 50 more people be my guests. I'll add one more coach to it, one more car to it. And the better part of the way we have done this year is that, and we have super specialized on that. This route actually requires three, three dining cars and only 10 sort of sleeper cars or whatever. Then just pick those and attach the next route. You can choose to have ID only one dining car. That's good enough. So the way you scale the plane is also can be customized based on the route along the route, more, more dining capabilities, shorter route, not an abandoned capability. >>You can attach the kind of coaches we call this multi-dimensional scaling. Not only do we scale horizontally, we can scale to different types of workloads by adding different types of coaches to it quite. So that's the beauty of this architecture. Now, why is that important? Is that where we land eventually is the ability to do operational and analytical in the same place. This is another thing which doesn't happen in the past, because you would say that I cannot run this analytical Barre because then my operational workload will suffer. Then my friend, then we'll slow down millions of customers that impacted that problem. We will solve the same data in which you can do analytical buddy, an operational query because they're separated by these cars, right? As in like we, we fence the, the, the resources, so that one doesn't impede the other. So you can, at the same time, have a microsecond 10 million ops per second, happening of a key value or equity. >>And then yet you can run this analytical body, which will take a couple of minutes to run one, not impeding the other. So that's in one sense, sort of the, part of the, um, uh, problems that we have solved here is that relational versus, uh, uh, the no SQL portion of it. These are the kinds of problems we have to solve. We solve those. And then we yet put back the same quality language on top. Y it's like Tesla in one sense, right underneath the surface is where all the stuff that had to be changed had to change, which is like the gasoline, uh, the internal combustion engine, uh, I think gas, uh, you says, these are the issues we really wanted to solve. Um, so solve that, change the engine out, you don't need to change the steering wheel or the gas pedal or the, you know, the battle shifters or whatever else you need, or that are for your shifters. >>Those need to remain in the same place. Otherwise people won't buy it. Otherwise it does not even look like a car to people. So, uh, even when you feed people the most advanced technology, it's got to be accessible to them in the manner that people can consume. Only in software, we forget this first design principle, and we go and say that, well, I got a car here, you got the blue harder to go fast and lean back for, for it to, you know, uh, to apply a break that's, that's how we seem to define, uh, design software. Instead, we should be designing them in a manner that it is easiest for our audience, which is developers to consume. And they've been using SQL for 40 years or 30 years. And so we give them the steering wheel on the, uh, and the gas bottle and the, um, and the gear shifter is by putting cul back on underneath the surface, we have completely solved, uh, the relational, uh, uh, limitations of schema, as well as scalability. >>So in, in, in that way, and by bringing back the classic acid capabilities, which is what relational systems, uh, we accounted on and being able to do that with the sequel programming language, we call it like multi-state SQL transaction. So to say, which is what a classic way all the enterprise software was built by putting that back. Now, I can say that that debate between relational and non-relational is over because this has truly extended the database to solve the problems that the relational systems had to grow up the salt in the modern times, but rather than get, um, sort of pedantic about whether it's, we have no SQL or sequel or new sequel, or, uh, you know, any of that sort of, uh, jargon, oriented debate, uh, this, these are the debates of computer science that they are actually, uh, and they were the solve and they have solved them with, uh, the latest release of $7, which we released a few months ago. >>Right, right. Last July, Ravi, we got to leave it there. I, I love the examples and the analogies. I can't wait to be face to face with you. I want to hang with you at the cocktail party because I've learned so much and really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming to the cube. >>Fantastic. Thanks for the time. And the Aboriginal Dan was, I mean, very insightful questions really appreciate it. Thank you. >>Okay. This is Dave Volante. We're covering Couchbase connect online, keep it right there for more great content on the cube.

>> Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Couchbase connect online, where the theme of the event is, is modernize now. Yes, let's talk about that. And with me is Ravi mayor him, who's the senior vice president of engineering and the CTO at Couchbase Ravi. Welcome. Great to see you. >> Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you. >> I want to ask you what the new requirements are around modern applications. I've seen some of your comments, you got to be flexible, distributed, multimodal, mobile, edge. Those are all the very cool sort of buzz words, smart applications. What does that all mean? And how do you put that into a product and make it real? >> Yeah, I think what has basically happened is that so far it's been a transition of sorts. And now we are come to a point where that tipping point and that tipping point has been more because of COVID and there are COVID has pushed us to a world where we are living in a in a sort of occasionally connected manner where our digital interactions precede, our physical interactions in one sense. So it's a world where we do a lot more stuff that's less than in a digital manner, as opposed to sort of making a more specific human contact. That does really been the sort of accelerant to this modernize Now, as a team. In this process, what has happened is that so far all the databases and all the data infrastructure that we have built historically, are all very centralized. They're all sitting behind. They used to be in mainframes from where they came to like your own data centers, where we used to run hundreds of servers to where they're going now, which is the computing marvelous change to consumption-based computing, which is all cloud oriented now. And so, but they are all centralized still, but where our engagement happens with the data is at the edge at your point of convenience, at your point of consumption, not where the data is actually sitting. So this has led to, you know, all those buzzwords, as you said, which is like, oh, well we need a distributed data infrastructure, where is the edge? But it just basically comes down to the fact that the data needs to be there, if you are engaging with it. And that means if you are doing it on your mobile phone, or if you're sitting, but doing something in your while you're traveling, or whether you're in a subway, whether you're in a plane or a ship, wherever the data needs to come to you and be available, as opposed to every time you going to the data, which is centrally sitting in some place. And that is the fundamental shift in terms of how the modern architecture needs to think when they, when it comes to digital transformation and, transitioning their old applications to the, the modern infrastructure, because that's, what's going to define your customer experiences and your personalized experiences. Otherwise, people are basically waiting for that circle of death that we all know, and blaming the networks and other pieces. The problem was actually, the data is not where you are engaging with it. It's got to be fetched, you know, seven sea's away. And that is the problem that we are basically solving in this modern modernization of that data, data infrastructure. >> I love this conversation and I love the fact that there's a technical person that can kind of educate us on, on this because date data by its very nature is distributed. It's always been distributed, but with the distributed database has always been incredibly challenging, whether it was a global SIS Plex or an eventual consistency of getting recovery for a distributed architecture has been extremely difficult. You know, I hate that this is a terrible term, lots of ways to skin a cat, but, but you've been the visionary behind this notion of optionality, how to solve technical problems in different ways. So how do you solve that, that problem of, of, of, of, of a super rock solid database that can handle, you know, distributed data? >> Yes. So there are two issues that you alluded little too over there. The first is the optionality piece of it, which is that same data that you have that requires different types of processing on it. It's almost like fractional distillation. It is like your crude flowing through the system. You start all over from petrol and you can end up with Vaseline and rayon on the other end, but the raw material, that's our data. In one sense. So far, we never treated the data that way. That's part of the problem. It has always been very purpose built and cast first problem. And so you just basically have to recast it every time we want to look at the data. The first thing that we have done is make data that fluid. So when you're actually, when you have the data, you can first look at it to perform. Let's say a simple operation that we call as a key value store operation. Given my ID, give him a password kind of scenarios, which is like, you know, there are customers of ours who have billions of user IDs in their management. So things get slower. How do you make it fast and easily available? Log-in should not take more than five milliseconds, this is, this is a class of problem that we solve that same data. Now, eventually, without you ever having to sort of do a casting it to a different database, you can now do solid queries. Our classic SQL queries, which is our next magic. We are a no SQL database, but we have a full functional SQL. The SQL has been the language that has talked to data for 40 odd years successfully. Every other database has come and tried to implement their own QL query language, but they've all failed only SQL has stood the test of time of 40 odd years. Why? Because there's a solid mathematics behind it. It's called a relational calculus. And what that helps you is, is basically a look at the data and any common editorial, any, any which way you look at the data, all it will come, the data in a format that you can consume. That's the guarantee sort of gives you in one sense. And because of that, you can now do some really complex in the database signs, what we call us, predicate logic on top of that. And that gives you the ability to do the classic relational type queries select star from where, kind of stuff, because it's at an English level becomes easy to so the same day that you didn't have to go move it to another database, do your sort of transformation of the data and all the stuff, same day that you do this. Now that's where the optionality comes in. Now you can do another piece of logic on top of this, which we call search. This is built on this concept of inverted index and TF IDF, the classic Google in a very simple terms, what Google tokenized search, you can do that in the same data without you ever having to move the data to a different format. And then on top of it, they can do what is known as a eventing or your own custom logic, which we all which we do on a, on programming language called Java script. And finally analytics and analytics is the, your ability to query the operational data in a different way. And talk querying, what was my sales of this widget year over year on December 1st week, that's a very complex question to ask, and it takes a lot of different types of processing. So these are different types of that's optionality with different types of processing on the same data without you having to go to five different systems without you having to recast the data in five different ways and apply different application logic. So you put them in one place. Now is your second question. Now this has got to be distributed and made available in multiple cloud in your data center, all the way to the edge, which is the operational side of the, the database management system. And that's where the distributed platform that we have built enables us to get it to where you need the data to be, you know, in the classic way we call it CDN'ing the data as in like content delivery networks. So far do static, sort of moving of static content to the edges. Now we can actually dynamically move the data. Now imagine the richness of applications you can develop. >> And on the first part of, of the, the, the answer to my question, are you saying you could do this without scheme with a no schema on, right? And then you can apply those techniques. >> Fantastic question. Yes. That's the brilliance of this database is that so far classically databases have always demanded that you first define a schema before you can write a single byte of data. Couchbase is one of the rare databases. I, for one don't know any other one, but there could be, let's give the benefit of doubt. It's a database which writes data first and then late binds to schema as we call it. It's a schema on read thing. So, because there is no schema, it is just a Json document that is sitting inside. And Json is the lingua franca of the web, as you very well know by now. So it just Json that we manage, you can do key value look ups of the Json. You can do full credit capability, like a classic relational database. We even have cost-based optimizers and other sophisticated pieces of technology behind it. You can do searching on it, using the, the full textual analysis pipeline. You can do ad hoc webbing on the analytics side, and you can write your own custom logic on it using or inventing capabilities. So that's, that's what it allows because we keep the data in the native form of Json. It's not a data structure or a data schema imposed by a database. It is how the data is produced. And on top of it, bring, we bring different types of logic, five different types of it's like the philosophy is bringing logic to data as opposed to moving data to logic. This is what we have been doing in the last 40 years, because we developed various database systems and data processing systems at various points in time in our history, we had key value stores. We had relational systems, we had search systems, we had analytical systems. We had queuing systems, all these systems, if you want to use any one of them are answered. It always been, just move the data to that system. Versus we are saying that do not move the data as we get bigger and bigger and data just moving this data is going to be a humongous problem. If you're going to be moving petabytes of data for this, it's not going to fly instead, bring the logic to the data, right? So you can now apply different types of logic to the data. I think that's what, in one sense, the optionality piece of this. >> But as you know, there's plenty of schema-less data stores. They're just, they're called data swamps. I mean, that's what they, that's what they became, right? I mean, so this is some, some interesting magic that you're applying here. >> Yes. I mean, the one problem with the data swamps as you call them is that that was a little too open-ended because the data format itself could change. And then you do your, then everything became like a game data recasting because it required you to have it in seven schema in one sense at, at the end of the day, for certain types of processing. So in that where a lot of gaps it's probably related, but it not really, how do you say keep to the promise that it actually meant to be? So that's why it was a swamp I mean, because it was fundamentally not managing the data. The data was sitting in some file system, and then you are doing something, this is a classic database where the data is managed and you create indexes to manage it. And you create different types of indexes to manage it. You distribute the index, you distribute the data you have, like we were discussing, you have ACID semantics on top of, and when you, when you put all these things together, it's, it's, it's a tough proposition, but we have solved some really tough problems, which are good computer science stuff, computer science problems that we have to solve to bring this, to bring this, to bear, to bring this to the market. >> So you predicted the trend around multimodal and converged databases. You kind of led Couchbase through that. I, I want, I always ask this question because it's clearly a trend in the industry and it, and it definitely makes sense from a simplification standpoint. And, and, and so that I don't have to keep switching databases or the flip side of that though, Ravi. And I wonder if you could give me your opinion on this is kind of the right tool for the right job. So I often say isn't that the Swiss army knife approach, where you have have a little teeny scissors and a knife, that's not that sharp. How, how do you respond to that? >> A great one. My answer is always, I use another analogy to tackle that, and is that, have you ever accused a smartphone of being a Swiss army knife? - No. No. >> Nobody does. That because it actually 40 functions in one is what a smartphone becomes. You never call your iPhone or your Android phone, a Swiss army knife, because here's the reason is that you can use that same device in the full capacity. That's what optionality is. It's not, I'm not, it's not like your good old one where there's a keyboard hiding half the screen, and you can do everything only through the keyboard without touching and stuff like that. That's not the whole devices available to you to do one type of processing when you want it. When you're done with that, it can do another completely different types of processing. Right? As in a moment, it could be a TomTom, telling you all the directions, the next one, it's your PDA. Third one. It's a fantastic phone. Four. It's a beautiful camera which can do your f-stop management and give you a nice SLR quality picture. Right? So next moment, it's the video camera. People are shooting movies with this thing in Hollywood, these days for God's sake. So it gives you the full power of what you want to do when you want it. And now, if you just thought that iPhone is a great device or any smartphone is a great device, because you can do five things in one or 50 things in one, and at a certain level, he missed the point because what that device really enabled is not just these five things in one place. It becomes easy to consume and easy to operate. It actually started the app based economy. That's the brilliance of bringing so many things in one place, because in the morning, you know, I get an alert saying that today you got to leave home at >> 8: 15 for your nine o'clock meeting. And the next day it might actually say 8 45 is good enough because it knows where the phone is sitting. The geo position of it. It knows from my calendar where the meeting is actually happening. It can do a traffic calculation because it's got my map and all of the routes. And then it's got this notification system, which eventually pops up on my phone to say, Hey, you got to leave at this time. Now five different systems have to come together and they can because the data is in one place. Without that, you couldn't even do this simple function in a, in a sort of predictable manner in a, in a, in a manner that's useful to you. So I believe a database which gives you this optionality of doing multiple data processing on the same set of data allows you will allow you to build a class of products, which you are so far been able to struggling to build. Because half the time you're running sideline to sideline, just, you know, integrating data from one system to the other. >> So I love the analogy with the smartphone. I want to, I want to continue it and double click on it. So I use this camera. I used to, you know, my kid had a game. I would bring the, the, the big camera, the 35 millimeter. So I don't use that anymore no way, but my wife does, she still uses the DSLR. So is, is there a similar analogy here? That those, and by the way, the camera, the camera shop in my town went out of business, you know? So, so, but, but is there, is that a fair and where, in other words, those specialized databases, they say there still is a place for them, but they're getting. >> Absolutely, absolutely great analogy and a great extension to the question. That's like, that's the contrarian side of it in one sense is that, Hey, if everything can just be done in one, do you have a need for the other things? I mean, you gave a camera example where it is sort of, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Let me give you another one, which is actually less straight to the point better. I've been just because my, I, I listened to half of my music on the iPhone. Doesn't stop me from having my full digital receiver. And, you know, my Harman Kardon speakers at home because they, I mean, they produce a kind of sounded immersive experience. This teeny little speaker has never in its lifetime intended to produce, right? It's the convenience. Yes. It's the convenience of convergence that I can put my earphones on and listen to all the great music. Yes, it's 90% there or 80% there. It depends on your audio file-ness of your, I mean, your experience super specialized ones do not go away. You know, there are, there are places where the specialized use cases will demand a separate system to exist. But even there that has got to be very closed. How do you say close, binding or late binding? I should be able to stream that song from my phone to that receiver so I can get it from those speakers. You can say that all, there's a digital divide between these two things done, and I can only play CDs on that one. That's not how it's going to work going forward. It's going to be, this is the connected world, right? As in, if I'm listening to the song in my car and then step off the car, walk into my living room, that same songs should continue and play in my living room speakers. Then it's a connected world because it knows my preference and what I'm doing that all happened only because of this data flowing between all these systems. >> I love, I love that example too. When I was a kid, we used to go to Tweeter, et cetera. And we used to play around with three, take home, big four foot speakers. Those stores are out of business too. Absolutely. And now we just plug into Sonos. So that is the debate between relational and non-relational databases over Ravi? >> I believe so, because I think what had happened was relational systems. I've mean where the norm, they rule the roost, if you will, for the last 40 odd years and then gain this no SQL movement, which was almost as though a rebellion from the relational world, we all inhabited because we, it was very restrictive. It, it had the schema definition and the schema evolution as we call it, all those things, they were like, they required a committee. They required your DBA and your data architect. And you had to call them just to add one column and stuff like that. And the world had moved on. This was a world of blogs and tweets and, you know, mashups and a different generation of digital behavior, There are digital, native people now who are operating in these and the, the applications, the, the consumer facing applications. We are living in this world. And yet the enterprise ones were still living in the, in the other, the other side of the divide. So out came this solution to say that we don't need SQL. Actually the problem was never SQL. No SQL was, you know, best approximation, good marketing name, but from a technologist perspective, the problem was never the query language, no SQL was not the problem, the schema limitations and the inability for these, the system to scale, the relational systems were built like airplanes, which is that if a San Francisco, Boston, there is a flight route, it's so popular that if you want to add 50 more seats to it, the only way you can do that is to go back to Boeing and ask them to get you a set from 7 3 7 2 7 7 7, or whatever it is. And they'll stick you with a billion dollar bill on the allowance that you'll somehow pay that by, you know, either flying more people or raising the rates or whatever you have to do. These are all vertically scaling systems. So relational systems are vertically scaling. They are expensive. Versus what we have done in this modern world is make the system horizontally scaling, which is more like the same thing. If it's a train that is going from San Francisco to Boston, you need 50 more people be my guest. I'll add one more coach to it, one more car to it. And the better part of the way we have done this here is that, and we are super specialized on that. This route actually requires three, three dining cars and only 10 sort of sleeper cars or whatever. Then just pick those and attach the next route. You can choose to have, I need only one dining car. That's good enough. So the way you scale the plane is also can be customized based on the route along the route, more, more dining capabilities, shorter route, not an abandoned capability. You can attach the kind of coaches we call this multidimensional scaling. Not only do we scale horizontally, we can scale to different types of workloads by adding different types of coaches to it, right? So that's the beauty of this architecture. Now, why is that architecture important? Is that where we land eventually is the ability to do operational and analytical in the same place. This is another thing which doesn't happen in the past, because, you would say that I cannot run this analytical query because then my operational workload will suffer. Then my front end, then we'll slow down millions of customers that impacted that problem. They'll solve the same data once again, do analytical query, an operational query because they're separated by these cars, right? As in like we, we, we fence the, the, the resources so that one doesn't impede the other. So you can, at the same time, have a microsecond 10 million ops per second, happening of a key value or a query. And then yet you can run this analytical query, which will take a couple of minutes to them. One, not impeding the other. So that's in one sense, sort of the part of the problems that we have solved it here is that relational versus the no SQL portion of it. These are the kinds of problems we have to solve. We solve those. And then we yet put back the same query language on top. Why? It's like Tesla in one sense, right underneath the surface is where all the stuff that had to be changed had to change, which is like the gasoline, the internal combustion engine the gas, you says, these were the issues we really wanted to solve. So solve that, change the engine out, you don't need to change the steering wheel or the gas pedal or the, you know, the battle shifters or whatever else you need, over there your gear shifters. Those need to remain in the same place. Otherwise people won't buy it. Otherwise it does not even look like a car to people. So even when you feed people, the most advanced technology, it's got to be accessible to them in the manner that people can consume. Only in software, we forget this first design principle, and we go and say that, well, I got a car here, you got the blow harder to go fast. And they lean back for, for it to, you know, to apply a break that's, that's how we seem to define design software. Instead, we shouldn't be designing them in a manner that it is easiest for our audience, which is developers to consume. And they've been using SQL for 40 years or 30 years. And so we give them the steering wheel on the, and the gas pedal and the, and the gear shifters by putting SQL back on underneath the surface, we have completely solved the relational limitations of schema, as well as scalability. So in, in, in that way, and by bringing back the classic ACID capabilities, which is what relational systems we accounted on, and being able to do that with the SQL programming language, we call it like multi-statement SQL transaction. So to say, which is what a classic way all the enterprise software was built by putting that back. Now, I can say that that debate between relational and non-relational is over because this has truly extended the database to solve the problems that the relational systems had to grow up to solve in the modern times, rather than get sort of pedantic about whether it's we have no SQL or SQL or new SQL, or, you know, any of that sort of jargon oriented debate. This is, these are the debates of computer science that they are actually, and they were the solve, and they have solved them with the latest release of 7.0, which we released a few months ago. >> Right, right. Last July, Ravi, we got got to leave it there. I love the examples and the analogies. I can't wait to be face-to-face with you. I want to hang with you at the cocktail party because I've learned so much and really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming to the cube. >> Fantastic. Thanks for the time. And the opportunity I was, I mean, very insightful questions really appreciate it. - Thank you. >> Okay. This is Dave Volante. We're covering Couchbase connect online, keep it right there for more great content on the cube.

>>President. >>Hello everyone and welcome to wien on 2021. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of the event. You know, VM is a company that made its mark riding the virtualization wave, but quite amazingly has continued to extend its product portfolio and catch the other major waves of the industry. Of course, we're talking about cloud backup. SaS data protection was one of the early players there making moves and containers. And this is the VM on power panel with me or Danny Allen, who is the Ceo and Senior vice president of product strategy at VM. Dave Russell is the vice President of enterprise Strategy, of course, said Vin and Rick Vanover, senior director of product strategy at VM. It's great to see you again. Welcome back to the cube. >>Good to be here. >>Well, it had to be here. >>Yeah, let's do it. >>Let's do this. So Danny, you know, we heard you kind of your keynotes and we saw the general sessions and uh sort of diving into the breakouts. But the thing that jumps out to me is this growth rate that you're on. Uh you know, many companies and we've seen this throughout the industry have really struggled, you know, moving from the traditional on prem model to an an A. R. R. Model. Uh they've had challenges doing so the, I mean, you're not a public company, but you're quite transparent and a lot of your numbers 25% a our our growth year of a year in the last quarter, You know, 400,000 plus customers. You're talking about huge numbers of downloads of backup and replication Danny. So what are your big takeaways from the last, You know, 6-12 months? I know it was a strange year obviously, but you guys just keep cranking. >>Yeah, so we're obviously hugely excited by this and it really is a confluence of various things. It's our, it's our partners, it's the channel. Um, it's our customers frankly that that guide us and give us direction on what to do. But I always focus in on the product because I, you know, we run product strategy here, this group and we're very focused on building good products and I would say there's three product areas that are on maximum thrust right now. One is in the data center. So we built a billion dollar business on being the very best in the data center for V sphere, hyper V, um, for Nutanix, HV and as we announced also with red hat virtualization. So data center obviously a huge thrust for us going forward. The second assess Office 3 65 is exploding. We already announced we're protecting 5.8 million users right now with being back up for Office 3 65 and there's a lot of room to grow there. There's 145 million daily users of Microsoft teams. So a lot of room to grow. And then the third areas cloud, we moved over 100 petabytes of data into the public cloud in Q one and there's a lot of opportunity there as well. So those three things are driving the growth, the data center SaAS and cloud >>Davis. I want to get your kind of former analyst perspective on this. Uh you know, I know, you know, it's kind of become cliche but you still got that D. N. A. And I'm gonna tap it. So when you think about and you were following beam, of course very closely during its ascendancy with virtualization. And back then you wouldn't just take your existing, you know, approaches to back up in your processes and just slap them on to virtualization. That that wouldn't have worked. You had to rethink your backup. And it seems like I want to ask you about cloud because people talk about lift and shift and what I hear from customers is, you know, if I just lift and shift to cloud, it's okay, but if I don't have a plan to change my operating model, you know, I don't get the real benefit out of it. And so I would think back up data protection, data management etcetera is a key part of that. So how are you thinking about cloud and the opportunity there? >>Yeah, that's a good point, David. You know, I think the key area right there is it's important to protect the workload of the environment. The way that that environment is naturally is best suited to be protected and also to interact in a way that the administrator doesn't have to rethink, doesn't have to change their process so early on. Um I think it was very successful because the interface is the work experience looked like what an active directory administrator was used to, seeing if they went to go and protect something with me where to go recover an item. Same is true in the cloud, You don't want to just take what's working well in one area and just force it, you know, around round peg into a square hole. This doesn't work well. So you've got to think about the environment and you've got to think about what's gonna be the real use case for getting access to this data. So you want to really tune things and there's obviously commonality involved, but from a workflow perspective, from an application perspective and then a delivery model perspective, Now, when it comes to hybrid cloud multi cloud, it's important to look like that you belong there, not a fish out of water. >>Well, so of course, Danny you were talking to talking about you guys have product first, Right? And so rick your your key product guy here. What's interesting to me is when you look at the history of the technology industry and disruption, it's it's so often that the the incumbent, which you knew now an incumbent, you know, you're not the startup anymore, but the incumbent has challenges riding these these new waves because you've got to serve the existing customer base, but you gotta ride the new momentum as well. So how rick do you approach that from a product standpoint? Because based on the numbers that we see it doesn't you seem to be winning in both the traditional business and the new business. So how do you adapt from a product standpoint? >>Well, Dave, that's a good question. And Danny set it up? Well, it's really the birth of the Wien platform and its relevance in the market. In my 11th year here at Wien, I've had all kinds of conversations. Right. You know, the perception was that, you know, this smb toy for one hyper Advisor those days are long gone. We can check the boxes across the data center and cloud and even cloud native apps. You know, one of the things that my team has done is invest heavily in both people and staff on kubernetes, which aligns to our casting acquisition, which was featured heavily here at V Mon. So I think that being able to have that complete platform conversation Dave has really given us incredible momentum but also credibility with the customers because more than ever, this fundamental promise of having data backed up and being able to drive a recovery for whatever may happen to data nowadays. You know, that's a real emotional, important thing for people and to be able to bring that kind of outcome across the data center, across the cloud, across changes in what they do kubernetes that's really aligned well to our success and you know, I love talking to customers now. It's a heck of a lot easier when you can say yes to so many things and get the technical win. So that kind of drives a lot of the momentum Dave, but it's really the platform. >>So let's talk about the future of it and I want all you guys to chime in here and Danny, you start up, How do you see it? I mean, I always say the last 10 years, the next 10 years ain't gonna be like the last 10 years whether it's in cloud or hybrid et cetera. But so how Danny do you see I. T. In the future of I. T. Where do you see VM fitting in, how does that inform your roadmap, your product strategy? Maybe you could kick that segment off? >>Yeah. I think of the kind of the two past decades that we've gone through starting back in 2000 we had a lot of digital services built for end users and it was built on physical infrastructure and that was fantastic. Obviously we could buy things online, we could order close we could order food, we we could do things interact with end users. The second era about a decade later was based on virtualization. Now that wasn't a benefit so much to the end user is a benefit to the business. The Y because you could put 10 servers on a single physical server and you could be a lot more flexible in terms of delivery. I really think this next era that we're going into is actually based on containers. That's why the cost of acquisition is so strategic to us. Because the unique thing about containers is they're designed for to be consumption friendly. You spin them up, you spin them down, you provision them, you d provisions and they're completely portable. You can move it >>from on >>premises if you're running open shift to e k s a k s G k E. And so I think the next big era that we're going to go through is this movement towards containerized infrastructure. Now, if you ask me who's running that, I still think there's going to be a data center operations team, platform ups is the way that I think about them who run that because who's going to take the call in the middle of the night. But it is interesting that we're going through this transformation and I think we're in the very early stages of this radical transformation to a more consumption based model. Dave. I don't know what you think about that. >>Yeah, I would say something pretty similar Danny. It sounds cliche day valenti, but I take everything back to digital transformation. And the reason I say that is to me, digital transformation is about improving customer intimacy and so that you can deliver goods and services that better resonate and you can deliver them in better time frame. So exactly what Danny said, you know, I think that the siloed approaches of the past where we built very hard in environments and we were willing to take a long time to stand those up and then we have very tight change control. I feel like 2020 sort of a metaphor for where the data center is going to throw all that out the window we're compiling today. We're shipping today and we're going to get experience today and we're going to refine it and do it again tomorrow. But that's the environment we live in. And to Danny's point why containers are so important. That notion of shift left meaning experience things earlier in the cycle. That is going to be the reality of the data center regardless of whether the data center is on prem hybrid cloud, multi cloud or for some of us potentially completely in the cloud. >>So rick when you think about some of your peeps like the backup admit right and how that role is changing in a big discussion in the economy now about the sort of skills gap we got all these jobs and and yet there's still all this unemployment now, you know the debate about the reasons why, but there's a there's a transition enrolls in terms of how people are using products and obviously containers brings that, what what are you seeing when you talk to like a guy called him your peeps? Yeah, it's >>an evolving conversation. Dave the audience, right. It has to be relevant. Uh you know, we were afforded good luxury in that data center wheelhouse that Danny mentioned. So virtualization platform storage, physical servers, that's a pretty good start. But in the software as a service wheelhouse, it's a different persona now, they used to talk to those types of people, there's a little bit of connection, but as we go farther to the cloud, native apps, kubernetes and some of the other SAAS platforms, it is absolutely an audience journey. So I've actually worked really hard on that in my team, right? Everything from what I would say, parachuting into a community, right? And you have to speak their language. Number one reason is just number one outcomes just be present. And if you're in these communities you can find these individuals, you can talk their language, you can resonate with their needs, right? So that's something uh you know, everything from Levin marketing strategy to the community strategy to even just seating products in the market, That's a recipe that beam does really well. So yeah, it's a moving target for sure. >>Dave you were talking about the cliche of digital transformation and I'll say this may be pre Covid, I really felt like it was a cliche, there was a lot of, you know, complacency, I'll call it, but then the force marks the digital change that uh and now we kind of understand if you're not a digital business, you're in trouble. Uh And so my question is how it relates to some of the trends that we've been talking about in terms of cloud containers, We've seen the SAs ification for the better part of a decade now, but specifically as it relates to migration, it's hard for customers to just migrate their application portfolio to the cloud. Uh It's hard to fund it. It takes a long time. It's complex. Um how do you see that cloud migration evolving? Maybe that's where hybrid comes in And again, I'm interested in how you guys think about it and how it affects your strategy. >>Yeah. Well it's a complex answer as you might imagine because 400,000 customers, we take the exact same code. The exact same ice so that I run on my laptop is the exact same being backup and replication image that a major bank protects almost 20,000 machines and a petabytes of data. And so what that means is that you have to look at things on a case by case basis for some of us continuing to operate proprietary systems on prem might be the best choice for a certain workload. But for many of us the Genie is kind of out of the bottle with 2020 we have to move faster. It's less about safety and a lot more about speed and favorable outcome. We'll fix it if it's broken but let's get going. So for organizations struggling with how to move to the cloud, believe it or not, backup and recovery is an excellent way to start to venture into that because you can start to move data backup ISm data movement engine. So we can start to see data there where it makes sense. But rick would be quick to point out we want to offer a safe return. We have instances of where people want to repatriate data back and having a portable data format is key to that Rick. >>Uh yeah, I had a conversation recently with an organization managing cloud sprawl. They decided to consolidate, we're going to use this cloud, so it was removing a presence from one cloud that starts with an A and migrating it to the other cloud that starts with an A. You know, So yeah, we've seen that need for portability repatriation on prem classic example going from on prem apps to software as a service models for critical apps. So data mobility is at the heart of VM and with all the different platforms, kubernetes comes into play as well. It's definitely aligning to the needs that we're seeing in the market for sure. >>So repatriation, I want to stay on that for a second because you're, you're an arms dealer, you don't care if they're in the cloud or on prem and I don't know, maybe you make more money in one or the other, but you're gonna ride whatever waves the market gives you so repatriation to me implies. Or maybe I'm just inferring that somebody's moved to the cloud and they feel like, wow, we've made a mistake, it was too fast, too expensive. It didn't work for us. So now we're gonna bring it back on prem. Is that what you're saying? Are you saying they actually want their data in both both places. As another layer of data protection Danny. I wonder if you could address that. What are you seeing? >>Well, one of the interesting things that we saw recently, Dave Russell actually did the survey on this is that customers will actually build their work laid loads in the cloud with the intent to bring it back on premises. And so that repatriation is real customers actually don't just accidentally fall into it, but they intend to do it. And the thing about being everyone says, hey, we're disrupting the market, we're helping you go through this transformation, we're helping you go forward. Actually take a slightly different view of this. The team gives them the confidence that they can move forward if they want to, but if they don't like it, then they can move back and so we give them the stability through this incredible pace, change of innovation. We're moving forward so so quickly, but we give them the ability to move forward if they want then to recover to repatriate if that's what they need to do in a very effective way. And Dave maybe you can touch on that study because I know that you talked to a lot of customers who do repatriate workloads after moving them to the cloud. >>Yeah, it's kind of funny Dave not in the analyst business right now, but thanks to Danny and our chief marketing Officer, we've got now half a dozen different research surveys that have either just completed or in flight, including the largest in the data protection industry's history. And so the survey that Danny alluded to, what we're finding is people are learning as they're going and in some cases what they thought would happen when they went to the cloud they did not experience. So the net kind of funny slide that we discovered when we asked people, what did you like most about going to the cloud and then what did you like least about going to the cloud? The two lists look very similar. So in some cases people said, oh, it was more stable. In other cases people said no, it was actually unstable. So rick I would suggest that that really depends on the practice that you bring to it. It's like moving from a smaller house to a larger house and hoping that it won't be messy again. Well if you don't change your habits, it's eventually going to end up in the same situation. >>Well, there's still door number three and that's data reuse and analytics. And I found a lot of organizations love the idea of at least manipulating data, running test f scenarios on yesterday's production, cloud workload completely removed from the cloud or even just analytics. I need this file. You know, those types of scenarios are very easy to do today with them. And you know, sometimes those repatriations, those portable recoveries, Sometimes people do that intentionally, but sometimes they have to do it. You know, whether it's fire, flood and blood and you know, oh, I was looks like today we're moving to the cloud because I've lost my data center. Right. Those are scenarios that, that portable data format really allows organizations to do that pretty easily with being >>it's a good discussion because to me it's not repatriation, it has this negative connotation, the zero sum game and it's not Danny what you describe and rick as well. It was kind of an experimentation, a purposeful. We're going to do it in the cloud because we can and it's cheap and low risk to spin it up and then we're gonna move it because we've always thought we're going to have it on prem. So, so you know, there is some zero sum game between the cloud and on prem. Clearly no question about it. But there's also this rising tide lifts all ship. I want to, I want to change the subject to something that's super important and and top of mind it's in the press and it ain't going away and that is cyber and specifically ransomware. I mean, since the solar winds hack and it seems to me that was a new milestone in the capabilities and aggressiveness of the adversary who is very well funded and quite capable. And what we're seeing is this idea of tucking into the supply chain of islands, so called island hopping. You're seeing malware that's self forming and takes different signatures very stealthy. And the big trend that we've seen in the last six months or so is that the bad guys will will lurk and they'll steal all kinds of sensitive data. And then when you have an incident response, they will punish you for responding. And they will say, okay, fine, you want to do that. We're going to hold you ransom. We're gonna encrypt your data. And oh, by the way, we stole this list of positive covid test results with names from your website and we're gonna release it if you don't pay their. I mean, it's like, so you have to be stealthy in your incident response. And this is a huge problem. We're talking about trillions of dollars lost each year in, in in cybercrime. And so, uh, you know, it's again, it's this uh the bad news is good news for companies like you. But how do you help customers deal with this problem? What are you seeing Danny? Maybe you can chime in and others who have thoughts? >>Well we're certainly seeing the rise of cyber like crazy right now and we've had a focus on this for a while because if you think about the last line of defense for customers, especially with ransomware, it is having secure backups. So whether it be, you know, hardened Linux repositories, but making sure that you can store the data, have it offline, have it, have it encrypted immutable. Those are things that we've been focused on for a long while. It's more than that. Um it's detection and monitoring of the environment, which is um certainly that we do with our monitoring tools and then also the secure recovery. The last thing that you want to do of course is bring your backups or bring your data back online only to be hit again. And so we've had a number of capabilities across our portfolio to help in all of these. But I think what's interesting is where it's going, if you think about unleashing a world where we're continuously delivering, I look at things like containers where you have continues delivery and I think every time you run that helm commander, every time you run that terra form command, wouldn't that be a great time to do a backup to capture your data so that you don't have an issue once it goes into production. So I think we're going towards a world where security and the protection against these cyber threats is built into the supply chain rather than doing it on just a time based uh, schedule. And I know rick you're pretty involved on the cyber side as well. Would you agree with that? I >>would. And you know, for organizations that are concerned about ransomware, you know, this is something that is taken very seriously and what Danny explained for those who are familiar with security, he kind of jumped around this, this universally acceptable framework in this cybersecurity framework there, our five functions that are a really good recipe on how you can go about this. And and my advice to IT professionals and decision makers across the board is to really align everything you do to that framework. Backup is a part of it. The security monitoring and user training. All those other things are are areas that that need to really follow that wheel of functions. And my little tip here and this is where I think we can introduce some differentiation is around detection and response. A lot of people think of backup product would shine in both protection and recovery, which it does being does, but especially on response and detection, you know, we have a lot of capabilities that become impact opportunities for organizations to be able to really provide successful outcomes through the other functions. So it's something we've worked on a lot. In fact we've covered here at the event. I'm pretty sure it will be on replay the updated white paper. All those other resources for different levels can definitely guide them through. >>So we follow up to the detection is what analytics that help you identify whatever lateral movement or people go in places they shouldn't go. I mean the hard part is is you know, the bad guys are living off the land, meaning they're using your own tooling to to hack you. So they're not it's not like they're introducing something new that shouldn't be there. They're they're just using making judo moves against you. So so specifically talk a little bit more about your your detection because that's critical. >>Sure. So I'll give you one example imagine we capture some data in the form of a backup. Now we have an existing advice that says, you know what Don't put your backup infrastructure with internet connectivity. Use explicit minimal permissions. And those three things right there and keep it up to date. Those four things right there will really hedge off a lot of the different threat vectors to the back of data, couple that with some of the mutability offline or air gapped capabilities that Danny mentioned and you have an additional level of resiliency that can really ensure that you can drive recovery from an analytic standpoint. We have an api that allows organizations to look into the backup data. Do more aggressive scanning without any exclusions with different tools on a flat file system. You know, the threats can't jump around in memory couple that with secure restore. When you reintroduce things into the environment From a recovery standpoint, you don't want to reintroduce threats. So there's protections, there's there's confidence building steps along the way with them and these are all generally available technologies. So again, I got this white paper, I think we're up to 50 pages now, but it's a very thorough that goes through a couple of those scenarios. But you know, it gets the uh, it gets quickly into things that you wouldn't expect from a backup product. >>Please send me a copy if you, if you don't mind. I this is a huge problem and you guys are global company. I admittedly have a bit of a US bias, but I was interviewing robert Gates one time the former defense secretary and we're talking about cyber war and I said, don't we have the best cyber, can't we let go on the offense? He goes, yeah, we can, but we got the most to lose. So this is really a huge problem for organizations. All right, guys, last question I gotta ask you. So what's life like under, under inside capital of the private equity? What's changed? What's, what's the same? Uh, do you hear from our good friend ratner at all? Give us the update there. >>Yes. Oh, absolutely fantastic. You know, it's interesting. So obviously acquired by insight partners in February of 2020, right, when the pandemic was hitting, but they essentially said light the fuse, keep the engine's going. And we've certainly been doing that. They haven't held us back. We've been hiring like crazy. We're up to, I don't know what the count is now, I think 4600 employees, but um, you know, people think of private equity and they think of cost optimizations and, and optimizing the business, That's not the case here. This is a growth opportunity and it's a growth opportunity simply because of the technology opportunity in front of us to keep, keep the engine's going. So we hear from right near, you know, on and off. But the new executive team at VM is very passionate about driving the success in the industry, keeping abreast of all the technology changes. It's been fantastic. Nothing but good things to say. >>Yes, insight inside partners, their players, we watched them watch their moves and so it's, you know, I heard Bill McDermott, the ceo of service now the other day talking about he called himself the rule of 60 where, you know, I always thought it was even plus growth, you know, add that up. And that's what he was talking about free cash flow. He's sort of changing the definition a little bit but but so what are you guys optimizing for you optimizing for growth? Are you optimising for Alberta? You optimizing for free cash flow? I mean you can't do All three. Right. What how do you think about that? >>Well, we're definitely optimizing for growth. No question. And one of the things that we've actually done in the past 12 months, 18 months is beginning to focus on annual recurring revenue. You see this in our statements, I know we're not public but we talk about the growth in A. R. R. So we're certainly focused on that growth in the annual recovering revenue and that that's really what we tracked too. And it aligns well with the cloud. If you look at the areas where we're investing in cloud native and the cloud and SAAS applications, it's very clear that that recurring revenue model is beneficial. Now We've been lucky, I think we're 13 straight quarters of double-digit growth. And and obviously they don't want to see that dip. They want to see that that growth continue. But we are optimizing on the growth trajectory. >>Okay. And you see you clearly have a 25% growth last quarter in A. R. R. Uh If I recall correctly, the number was evaluation was $5 billion last january. So obviously then, given that strategy, Dave Russell, that says that your tam is a lot bigger than just the traditional backup world. So how do you think about tam? I'll we'll close there >>and uh yeah, I think you look at a couple of different ways. So just in the backup recovery space or backup in replication to paying which one you want to use? You've got a large market there in excess of $8 billion $1 billion dollar ongoing enterprise. Now, if you look at recent i. D. C. Numbers, we grew and I got my handy HP calculator. I like to make sure I got this right. We grew 44.88 times faster than the market average year over year. So let's call that 45 times faster and backup. There's billions more to be made in traditional backup and recovery. However, go back to what we've been talking around digital transformation Danny talking about containers in the environment, deployment models, changing at the heart of backup and recovery where a data capture data management, data movement engine. We envision being able to do that not only for availability but to be able to drive the business board to be able to drive economies of scale faster for our organizations that we serve. I think the trick is continuing to do more of the same Danny mentioned, he knows the view's got lit. We haven't stopped doing anything. In fact, Danny, I think we're doing like 10 times more of everything that we used to be doing prior to the pandemic. >>All right, Danny will give you the last word, bring it home. >>So our goal has always been to be the most trusted provider of backup solutions that deliver modern data protection. And I think folks have seen at demon this year that we're very focused on that modern data protection. Yes, we want to be the best in the data center but we also want to be the best in the next generation, the next generation of I. T. So whether it be sas whether it be cloud VM is very committed to making sure that our customers have the confidence that they need to move forward through this digital transformation era. >>Guys, I miss flying. I mean, I don't miss flying, but I miss hanging with you all. We'll see you. Uh, for sure. Vim on 2022 will be belly to belly, but thanks so much for coming on the the virtual edition and thanks for having us. >>Thank you. >>All right. And thank you for watching everybody. This keeps continuous coverage of the mon 21. The virtual edition. Keep it right there for more great coverage. >>Mm

>> Narrator: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> The next 10 years of cloud, they're going to differ dramatically from the past decade. The early days of cloud, deployed virtualization of standard off-the-shelf components, X86 microprocessors, disk drives et cetera, to then scale out and build a large distributed system. The coming decade is going to see a much more data-centric, real-time, intelligent, call it even hyper-decentralized cloud that will comprise on-prem, hybrid, cross-cloud and edge workloads with a services layer that will obstruct the underlying complexity of the infrastructure which will also comprise much more custom and varied components. This was a key takeaway of the guests from theCUBE on Cloud, an event hosted by SiliconANGLE on theCUBE. Welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights Powered by ETR. In this episode, we'll summarize the findings of our recent event and extract the signal from our great guests with a couple of series and comments and clips from the show. CUBE on Cloud is our very first virtual editorial event. It was designed to bring together our community in an open forum. We ran the day on our 365 software platform and had a great lineup of CEOs, CIOs, data practitioners technologists. We had cloud experts, analysts and many opinion leaders all brought together in a day long series of sessions that we developed in order to unpack the future of cloud computing in the coming decade. Let me briefly frame up the conversation and then turn it over to some of our guests. First, we put forth our view of how modern cloud has evolved and where it's headed. This graphic that we're showing here, talks about the progression of cloud innovation over time. A cloud like many innovations, it started as a novelty. When AWS announced S3 in March of 2006, nobody in the vendor or user communities really even in the trade press really paid too much attention to it. Then later that year, Amazon announced EC2 and people started to think about a new model of computing. But it was largely tire kickers, bleeding-edge developers that took notice and really leaned in. Now the financial crisis of 2007 to 2009, really created what we call a cloud awakening and it put cloud on the radar of many CFOs. Shadow IT emerged within departments that wanted to take IT in bite-sized chunks and along with the CFO wanted to take it as OPEX versus CAPEX. And then I teach transformation that really took hold. We came out of the financial crisis and we've been on an 11-year cloud boom. And it doesn't look like it's going to stop anytime soon, cloud has really disrupted the on-prem model as we've reported and completely transformed IT. Ironically, the pandemic hit at the beginning of this decade, and created a mandate to go digital. And so it accelerated the industry transformation that we're highlighting here, which probably would have taken several more years to mature but overnight the forced March to digital happened. And it looks like it's here to stay. Now the next wave, we think we'll be much more about business or industry transformation. We're seeing the first glimpses of that. Holger Mueller of Constellation Research summed it up at our event very well I thought, he basically said the cloud is the big winner of COVID. Of course we know that now normally we talk about seven-year economic cycles. He said he was talking about for planning and investment cycles. Now we operate in seven-day cycles. The examples he gave where do we open or close the store? How do we pivot to support remote workers without the burden of CAPEX? And we think that the things listed on this chart are going to be front and center in the coming years, data AI, a fully digitized and intelligence stack that will support next gen disruptions in autos, manufacturing, finance, farming and virtually every industry where the system will expand to the edge. And the underlying infrastructure across physical locations will be hidden. Many issues remain, not the least of which is latency which we talked about at the event in quite some detail. So let's talk about how the Big 3 cloud players are going to participate in this next era. Well, in short, the consensus from the event was that the rich get richer. Let's take a look at some data. This chart shows our most recent estimates of IaaS and PaaS spending for the Big 3. And we're going to update this after earning season but there's a couple of points stand out. First, we want to make the point that combined the Big 3 now account for almost $80 billion of infrastructure spend last year. That $80 billion, was not all incremental (laughs) No it's caused consolidation and disruption in the on-prem data center business and within IT shops companies like Dell, HPE, IBM, Oracle many others have felt the heat and have had to respond with hybrid and cross cloud strategies. Second while it's true that Azure and GCP they appear to be growing faster than AWS. We don't know really the exact numbers, of course because only AWS provides a clean view of IaaS and passwords, Microsoft and Google. They kind of hide them all ball on their numbers which by the way, I don't blame them but they do leave breadcrumbs and clues on growth rates. And we have other means of estimating through surveys and the like, but it's undeniable Azure is closing the revenue gap on AWS. The third is that I like the fact that Azure and Google are growing faster than AWS. AWS is the only company by our estimates to grow its business sequentially last quarter. And in and of itself, that's not really enough important. What is significant is that because AWS is so large now at 45 billion, even at their slower growth rates it grows much more in absolute terms than its competitors. So we think AWS is going to keep its lead for some time. We think Microsoft and AWS will continue to lead the pack. You know, they might converge maybe it will be a 200 just race in terms of who's first who's second in terms of cloud revenue and how it's counted depending on what they count in their numbers. And Google look with its balance sheet and global network. It's going to play the long game and virtually everyone else with the exception of perhaps Alibaba is going to be secondary players on these platforms. Now this next graphic underscores that reality and kind of lays out the competitive landscape. What we're showing here is survey data from ETR of more than 1400 CIOs and IT buyers and on the vertical axis is Net Score which measures spending momentum on the horizontal axis is so-called Market Share which is a measure of pervasiveness in the data set. The key points are AWS and Microsoft look at it. They stand alone so far ahead of the pack. I mean, they really literally, it would have to fall down to lose their lead high spending velocity and large share of the market or the hallmarks of these two companies. And we don't think that's going to change anytime soon. Now, Google, even though it's far behind they have the financial strength to continue to position themselves as an alternative to AWS. And of course, an analytics specialist. So it will continue to grow, but it will be challenged. We think to catch up to the leaders. Now take a look at the hybrid zone where the field is playing. These are companies that have a large on-prem presence and have been forced to initiate a coherent cloud strategy. And of course, including multicloud. And we include Google in this so pack because they're behind and they have to take a differentiated approach relative to AWS, and maybe cozy up to some of these traditional enterprise vendors to help Google get to the enterprise. And you can see from the on-prem crowd, VMware Cloud on AWS is stands out as having some, some momentum as does Red Hat OpenShift, which is it's cloudy, but it's really sort of an ingredient it's not really broad IaaS specifically but it's a component of cloud VMware cloud which includes VCF or VMware Cloud Foundation. And even Dell's cloud. We would expect HPE with its GreenLake strategy. Its financials is shoring up, should be picking up momentum in the future in terms of what the customers of this survey consider cloud. And then of course you could see IBM and Oracle you're in the game, but they don't have the spending momentum and they don't have the CAPEX chops to compete with the hyperscalers IBM's cloud revenue actually dropped 7% last quarter. So that highlights the challenges that that company facing Oracle's cloud business is growing in the single digits. It's kind of up and down, but again underscores these two companies are really about migrating their software install basis to their captive clouds and as well for IBM, for example it's launched a financial cloud as a way to differentiate and not take AWS head-on an infrastructure as a service. The bottom line is that other than the Big 3 in Alibaba the rest of the pack will be plugging into hybridizing and cross-clouding those platforms. And there are definitely opportunities there specifically related to creating that abstraction layer that we talked about earlier and hiding that underlying complexity and importantly creating incremental value good examples, snowfallLike what snowflake is doing with its data cloud, what the data protection guys are doing. A company like Loomio is headed in that direction as are others. So, you keep an eye on that and think about where the white space is and where the value can be across-clouds. That's where the opportunity is. So let's see, what is this all going to look like? How does the cube community think it's going to unfold? Let's hear from theCUBE Guests and theCUBE on Cloud speakers and some of those highlights. Now, unfortunately we don't have time to show you clips from every speaker. We are like 10-plus hours of video content but we've tried to pull together some comments that summarize the sentiment from the community. So I'm going to have John Furrier briefly explain what theCUBE on Cloud is all about and then let the guests speak for themselves. After John, Pradeep Sindhu is going to give a nice technical overview of how the cloud was built out and what's changing in the future. I'll give you a hint it has to do with data. And then speaking of data, Mai-Lan Bukovec, who heads up AWS is storage portfolio. She'll explain how she views the coming changes in cloud and how they look at storage. Again, no surprise, it's all about data. Now, one of the themes that you'll hear from guests is the notion of a distributed cloud model. And Zhamak Deghani, he was a data architect. She'll explain her view of the future of data architectures. We also have thoughts from analysts like Zeus Karavalla and Maribel Lopez, and some comments from both Microsoft and Google to compliment AWS's view of the world. In fact, we asked JG Chirapurath from Microsoft to comment on the common narrative that Microsoft products are not best-to-breed. They put out a one dot O and then they get better, or sometimes people say, well, they're just good enough. So we'll see what his response is to that. And Paul Gillin asks, Amit Zavery of Google his thoughts on the cloud leaderboard and how Google thinks about their third-place position. Dheeraj Pandey gives his perspective on how technology has progressed and been miniaturized over time. And what's coming in the future. And then Simon Crosby gives us a framework to think about the edge as the most logical opportunity to process data not necessarily a physical place. And this was echoed by John Roese, and Chris Wolf to experience CTOs who went into some great depth on this topic. Unfortunately, I don't have the clips of those two but their comments can be found on the CTO power panel the technical edge it's called that's the segment at theCUBE on Cloud events site which we'll share the URL later. Now, the highlight reel ends with CEO Joni Klippert she talks about the changes in securing the cloud from a developer angle. And finally, we wrap up with a CIO perspective, Dan Sheehan. He provides some practical advice on building on his experience as a CIO, COO and CTO specifically how do you as a business technology leader deal with the rapid pace of change and still be able to drive business results? Okay, so let's now hear from the community please run the highlights. >> Well, I think one of the things we talked about COVID is the personal impact to me but other people as well one of the things that people are craving right now is information, factual information, truth, textures that we call it. But here this event for us Dave is our first inaugural editorial event. Rob, both Kristen Nicole the entire cube team, SiliconANGLE on theCUBE we're really trying to put together more of a cadence. We're going to do more of these events where we can put out and feature the best people in our community that have great fresh voices. You know, we do interview the big names Andy Jassy, Michael Dell, the billionaires of people making things happen, but it's often the people under them that are the real Newsmakers. >> If you look at the architecture of cloud data centers the single most important invention was scale-out. Scale-out of identical or near identical servers all connected to a standard IP ethernet network. That's the architecture. Now the building blocks of this architecture is ethernet switches which make up the network, IP ethernet switches. And then the server is all built using general purpose x86 CPU's with DRAM, with SSD, with hard drives all connected to inside the CPU. Now, the fact that you scale these server nodes as they're called out was very, very important in addressing the problem of how do you build very large scale infrastructure using general purpose compute but this architecture, Dave is a compute centric architecture. And the reason it's a compute centric architecture is if you open this, is server node. What you see is a connection to the network typically with a simple network interface card. And then you have CPU's which are in the middle of the action. Not only are the CPU's processing the application workload but they're processing all of the IO workload what we call data centric workload. And so when you connect SSDs and hard drives and GPU is everything to the CPU, as well as to the network you can now imagine that the CPU is doing two functions. It's running the applications but it's also playing traffic cop for the IO. So every IO has to go to the CPU and you're executing instructions typically in the operating system. And you're interrupting the CPU many many millions of times a second. Now general purpose CPU and the architecture of the CPU's was never designed to play traffic cop because the traffic cop function is a function that requires you to be interrupted very, very frequently. So it's critical that in this new architecture where does a lot of data, a lot of these stress traffic the percentage of workload, which is data centric has gone from maybe one to 2% to 30 to 40%. >> The path to innovation is paved by data. If you don't have data, you don't have machine learning you don't have the next generation of analytics applications that helps you chart a path forward into a world that seems to be changing every week. And so in order to have that insight in order to have that predictive forecasting that every company needs, regardless of what industry that you're in today, it all starts from data. And I think the key shift that I've seen is how customers are thinking about that data, about being instantly usable. Whereas in the past, it might've been a backup. Now it's part of a data Lake. And if you can bring that data into a data lake you can have not just analytics or machine learning or auditing applications it's really what does your application do for your business and how can it take advantage of that vast amount of shared data set in your business? >> We are actually moving towards decentralization if we think today, like if it let's move data aside if we said is the only way web would work the only way we get access to various applications on the web or pages to centralize it We would laugh at that idea. But for some reason we don't question that when it comes to data, right? So I think it's time to embrace the complexity that comes with the growth of number of sources, the proliferation of sources and consumptions models, embrace the distribution of sources of data that they're not just within one part of organization. They're not just within even bounds of organizations that are beyond the bounds of organization. And then look back and say, okay, if that's the trend of our industry in general, given the fabric of compensation and data that we put in, you know, globally in place then how the architecture and technology and organizational structure incentives need to move to embrace that complexity. And to me that requires a paradigm shift a full stack from how we organize our organizations how we organize our teams, how we put a technology in place to look at it from a decentralized angle. >> I actually think we're in the midst of the transition to what's called a distributed cloud, where if you look at modernized cloud apps today they're actually made up of services from different clouds. And also distributed edge locations. And that's going to have a pretty profound impact on the way we go vast. >> We wake up every day, worrying about our customer and worrying about the customer condition and to absolutely make sure we dealt with the best in the first attempt that we do. So when you take the plethora of products we've dealt with in Azure, be it Azure SQL be it Azure cosmos DB, Synapse, Azure Databricks, which we did in partnership with Databricks Azure machine learning. And recently when we sort of offered the world's first comprehensive data governance solution and Azure overview, I would, I would humbly submit to you that we are leading the way. >> How important are rankings within the Google cloud team or are you focused mainly more on growth and just consistency? >> No, I don't think again, I'm not worried about we are not focused on ranking or any of that stuff. Typically I think we are worried about making sure customers are satisfied and the adding more and more customers. So if you look at the volume of customers we are signing up a lot of the large deals we did doing. If you look at the announcement we've made over the last year has been tremendous momentum around that. >> The thing that is really interesting about where we have been versus where we're going is we spend a lot of time talking about virtualizing hardware and moving that around. And what does that look like? And creating that as more of a software paradigm. And the thing we're talking about now is what does cloud as an operating model look like? What is the manageability of that? What is the security of that? What, you know, we've talked a lot about containers and moving into different, DevSecOps and all those different trends that we've been talking about. Like now we're doing them. So we've only gotten to the first crank of that. And I think every technology vendor we talked to now has to address how are they are going to do a highly distributed management insecurity landscape? Like, what are they going to layer on top of that? Because it's not just about, oh, I've taken a rack of something, server storage, compute, and virtualized it. I know have to create a new operating model around it in a way we're almost redoing what the OSI stack looks like and what the software and solutions are for that. >> And the whole idea of we in every recession we make things smaller. You know, in 91 we said we're going to go away from mainframes into Unix servers. And we made the unit of compute smaller. Then in the year, 2000 windows the next bubble burst and the recession afterwards we moved from Unix servers to Wintel windows and Intel x86 and eventually Linux as well. Again, we made things smaller going from million dollar servers to $5,000 servers, shorter lib servers. And that's what we did in 2008, 2009. I said, look, we don't even need to buy servers. We can do things with virtual machines which are servers that are an incarnation in the digital world. There's nothing in the physical world that actually even lives but we made it even smaller. And now with cloud in the last three, four years and what will happen in this coming decade. They're going to make it even smaller not just in space, which is size, with functions and containers and virtual machines, but also in time. >> So I think the right way to think about edges where can you reasonably process the data? And it obviously makes sense to process data at the first opportunity you have but much data is encrypted between the original device say and the application. And so edge as a place doesn't make as much sense as edge as an opportunity to decrypt and analyze it in the care. >> When I think of Shift-left, I think of that Mobius that we all look at all of the time and how we deliver and like plan, write code, deliver software, and then manage it, monitor it, right like that entire DevOps workflow. And today, when we think about where security lives, it either is a blocker to deploying production or most commonly it lives long after code has been deployed to production. And there's a security team constantly playing catch up trying to ensure that the development team whose job is to deliver value to their customers quickly, right? Deploy as fast as we can as many great customer facing features. They're then looking at it months after software has been deployed and then hurrying and trying to assess where the bugs are and trying to get that information back to software developers so that they can fix those issues. Shifting left to me means software engineers are finding those bugs as they're writing code or in the CIC CD pipeline long before code has been deployed to production. >> During this for quite a while now, it still comes down to the people. I can get the technology to do what it needs to do as long as they have the right requirements. So that goes back to people making sure we have the partnership that goes back to leadership and the people and then the change management aspects right out of the gate, you should be worrying about how this change is going to be how it's going to affect, and then the adoption and an engagement, because adoption is critical because you can go create the best thing you think from a technology perspective. But if it doesn't get used correctly, it's not worth the investment. So I agree, what is a digital transformation or innovation? It still comes down to understand the business model and injecting and utilizing technology to grow our reduce costs, grow the business or reduce costs. >> Okay, so look, there's so much other content on theCUBE on Cloud events site we'll put the link in the description below. We have other CEOs like Kathy Southwick and Ellen Nance. We have the CIO of UI path. Daniel Dienes talks about automation in the cloud and Appenzell from Anaplan. And a plan is not her company. By the way, Dave Humphrey from Bain also talks about his $750 million investment in Nutanix. Interesting, Rachel Stevens from red monk talks about the future of software development in the cloud and CTO, Hillary Hunter talks about the cloud going vertical into financial services. And of course, John Furrier and I along with special guests like Sergeant Joe Hall share our take on key trends, data and perspectives. So right here, you see the coupon cloud. There's a URL, check it out again. We'll, we'll pop this URL in the description of the video. So there's some great content there. I want to thank everybody who participated and thank you for watching this special episode of theCUBE Insights Powered by ETR. This is Dave Vellante and I'd appreciate any feedback you might have on how we can deliver better event content for you in the future. We'll be doing a number of these and we look forward to your participation and feedback. Thank you, all right, take care, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> As I've said many times on theCUBE for years, decades even we've marched to the cadence of Moore's law relying on the doubling of performance every 18 months or so, but no longer is this the main spring of innovation for technology rather it's the combination of data applying machine intelligence and the cloud supported by the relentless reduction of the cost of compute and storage and the build-out of a massively distributed computer network. Very importantly, the last several years alternative processors have emerged to support offloading work and performing specific tests. GPUs are the most widely known example of this trend with the ascendancy of Nvidia for certain applications like gaming and crypto mining and more recently machine learning. But in the middle of last decade we saw the early development focused on the DPU, the data processing unit, which is projected to make a huge impact on data centers in the coming years as we move into the next era of cloud. And with me is Pradeep Sindhu who's the co-founder and CEO of Fungible, a company specializing in the design and development of DPUs. Pradeep, welcome to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Thank-you, Dave and thank-you for having me. >> You're very welcome. So okay, my first question is don't CPUs and GPUs process data already. Why do we need a DPU? >> That is a natural question to ask. And CPUs have been around in one form or another for almost 55, maybe 60 years. And this is when general purpose computing was invented and essentially all CPUs went to x86 architecture by and large and of course is used very heavily in mobile computing, but x86 is primarily used in data center which is our focus. Now, you can understand that that architecture of a general purpose CPUs has been refined heavily by some of the smartest people on the planet. And for the longest time improvements you refer to Moore's law, which is really the improvements of the price, performance of silicon over time that combined with architectural improvements was the thing that was pushing us forward. Well, what has happened is that the architectural refinements are more or less done. You're not going to get very much, you're not going to squeeze more blood out of that storm from the general purpose computer architecture. what has also happened over the last decade is that Moore's law which is essentially the doubling of the number of transistors on a chip has slowed down considerably and to the point where you're only getting maybe 10, 20% improvements every generation in speed of the transistor if that. And what's happening also is that the spacing between successive generations of technology is actually increasing from two, two and a half years to now three, maybe even four years. And this is because we are reaching some physical limits in CMOS. These limits are well-recognized. And we have to understand that these limits apply not just to general purposive use but they also apply to GPUs. Now, general purpose CPUs do one kind of competition they're really general and they can do lots and lots of different things. It is actually a very, very powerful engine. And then the problem is it's not powerful enough to handle all computations. So this is why you ended up having a different kind of a processor called the GPU which specializes in executing vector floating-point arithmetic operations much, much better than CPU maybe 20, 30, 40 times better. Well, GPUs have now been around for probably 15, 20 years mostly addressing graphics computations, but recently in the last decade or so they have been used heavily for AI and analytics computations. So now the question is, well, why do you need another specialized engine called the DPU? Well, I started down this journey about almost eight years ago and I recognize I was still at Juniper Networks which is another company that I founded. I recognize that in the data center as the workload changes to addressing more and more, larger and larger corpuses of data, number one and as people use scale-out as these standard technique for building applications, what happens is that the amount of east-west traffic increases greatly. And what happens is that you now have a new type of workload which is coming. And today probably 30% of the workload in a data center is what we call data-centric. I want to give you some examples of what is a data-centric workload. >> Well, I wonder if I could interrupt you for a second. >> Of course. >> Because I want those examples and I want you to tie it into the cloud 'cause that's kind of the topic that we're talking about today and how you see that evolving. I mean, it's a key question that we're trying to answer in this program. Of course, early cloud was about infrastructure, little compute, little storage, little networking and now we have to get to your point all this data in the cloud. And we're seeing, by the way the definition of cloud expand into this distributed or I think a term you use is disaggregated network of computers. So you're a technology visionary and I wonder how you see that evolving and then please work in your examples of that critical workload, that data-centric workload. >> Absolutely happy to do that. So if you look at the architecture of our cloud data centers the single most important invention was scale-out of identical or near identical servers all connected to a standard IP ethernet network. That's the architecture. Now, the building blocks of this architecture is ethernet switches which make up the network, IP ethernet switches. And then the server is all built using general purpose x86 CPUs with DRAM, with SSD, with hard drives all connected to inside the CPU. Now, the fact that you scale these server nodes as they're called out was very, very important in addressing the problem of how do you build very large scale infrastructure using general purpose compute. But this architecture did is it compute centric architecture and the reason it's a compute centric architecture is if you open this server node what you see is a connection to the network typically with a simple network interface card. And then you have CPUs which are in the middle of the action. Not only are the CPUs processing the application workload but they're processing all of the IO workload, what we call data-centric workload. And so when you connect SSDs, and hard drives, and GPUs, and everything to the CPU, as well as to the network you can now imagine the CPUs is doing two functions. It's running the applications but it's also playing traffic cop for the IO. So every IO has to go through the CPU and you're executing instructions typically in the operating system and you're interrupting the CPU many, many millions of times a second. Now, general purpose CPUs and the architecture CPUs was never designed to play traffic cop because the traffic cop function is a function that requires you to be interrupted very, very frequently. So it's critical that in this new architecture where there's a lot of data, a lot of these stress traffic the percentage of workload, which is data-centric has gone from maybe one to 2% to 30 to 40%. I'll give you some numbers which are absolutely stunning. If you go back to say 1987 and which is the year in which I bought my first personal computer the network was some 30 times slower than the CPU. The CPU is running at 15 megahertz, the network was running at three megabits per second. Or today the network runs at a 100 gigabits per second and the CPU clock speed of a single core is about three to 2.3 gigahertz. So you've seen that there's a 600X change in the ratio of IO to compute just the raw clock speed. Now, you can tell me that, hey, typical CPUs have lots, lots of cores, but even when you factor that in there's been close to two orders of magnitude change in the amount of IO to compute. There is no way to address that without changing the architecture and this is where the DPU comes in. And the DPU actually solves two fundamental problems in cloud data centers. And these are fundamental there's no escaping it. No amount of clever marketing is going to get around these problems. Problem number one is that in a compute centric cloud architecture the interactions between server nodes are very inefficient. That's number one, problem number one. Problem number two is that these data-centric computations and I'll give you those four examples. The network stack, the storage stack, the virtualization stack, and the security stack. Those four examples are executed very inefficiently by CPUs. Needless to say that if you try to execute these on GPUs you will run into the same problem probably even worse because GPUs are not good at executing these data-centric computations. So what we were looking to do at Fungible is to solve these two basic problems. And you don't solve them by just taking older architectures off the shelf and applying them to these problems because this is what people have been doing for the last 40 years. So what we did was we created this new microprocessor that we call DPU from ground up. It's a clean sheet design and it solves those two problems fundamentally. >> So I want to get into that. And I just want to stop you for a second and just ask you a basic question which is if I understand it correctly, if I just took the traditional scale out, if I scale out compute and storage you're saying I'm going to hit a diminishing returns. It's not only is it not going to scale linearly I'm going to get inefficiencies. And that's really the problem that you're solving. Is that correct? >> That is correct. And the workloads that we have today are very data-heavy. You take AI for example, you take analytics for example it's well known that for AI training the larger the corpus of relevant data that you're training on the better the result. So you can imagine where this is going to go. >> Right. >> Especially when people have figured out a formula that, hey the more data I collect I can use those insights to make money- >> Yeah, this is why I wanted to talk to you because the last 10 years we've been collecting all this data. Now, I want to bring in some other data that you actually shared with me beforehand. Some market trends that you guys cited in your research. And the first thing people said is they want to improve their infrastructure and they want to do that by moving to the cloud. And they also, there was a security angle there as well. That's a whole another topic we could discuss. The other stat that jumped out at me, there's 80% of the customers that you surveyed said there'll be augmenting their x86 CPU with alternative processing technology. So that's sort of, I know it's self-serving, but it's right on the conversation we're having. So I want to understand the architecture. >> Sure. >> And how you've approached this. You've clearly laid out this x86 is not going to solve this problem. And even GPUs are not going to solve the problem. >> They re not going to solve the problem. >> So help us understand the architecture and how you do solve this problem. >> I'll be very happy to. Remember I use this term traffic cop. I use this term very specifically because, first let me define what I mean by a data-centric computation because that's the essence of the problem we're solving. Remember I said two problems. One is we execute data-centric workloads at least an order of magnitude more efficiently than CPUs or GPUs, probably 30 times more efficient. And the second thing is that we allow nodes to interact with each other over the network much, much more efficiently. Okay, so let's keep those two things in mind. So first let's look at the data-centric piece. The data-centric piece for workload to qualify as being data-centric four things have to be true. First of all, it needs to come over the network in the form of packets. Well, this is all workloads so I'm not saying anything. Secondly, this workload is heavily multiplex in that there are many, many, many computations that are happening concurrently, thousands of them, okay? That's the number two. So a lot of multiplexing. Number three is that this workload is stateful. In other words you can't process back it's out of order. You have to do them in order because you're terminating network sessions. And the last one is that when you look at the actual computation the ratio of IO to arithmetic is medium to high. When you put all four of them together you actually have a data-centric workload, right? And this workload is terrible for general purpose CPUs. Not only the general purpose CPU is not executed properly the application that is running on the CPU also suffers because data center workloads are interfering workloads. So unless you designed specifically to them you're going to be in trouble. So what did we do? Well, what we did was our architecture consists of very, very heavily multi-threaded general purpose CPUs combined with very heavily threaded specific accelerators. I'll give you examples of some of those accelerators, DMA accelerators, then ratio coding accelerators, compression accelerators, crypto accelerators, compression accelerators. These are just some, and then look up accelerators. These are functions that if you do not specialize you're not going to execute them efficiently. But you cannot just put accelerators in there, these accelerators have to be multi-threaded to handle. We have something like a 1,000 different treads inside our DPU to address these many, many, many computations that are happening concurrently but handle them efficiently. Now, the thing that is very important to understand is that given the velocity of transistors I know that we have hundreds of billions of transistors on a chip, but the problem is that those transistors are used very inefficiently today if the architecture of a CPU or a GPU. What we have done is we've improved the efficiency of those transistors by 30 times, okay? >> So you can use a real estate much more effectively? >> Much more effectively because we were not trying to solve a general purpose computing problem. Because if you do that we're going to end up in the same bucket where general purpose CPUs are today. We were trying to solve a specific problem of data-centric computations and of improving the note to note efficiency. So let me go to point number two because that's equally important. Because in a scalar or architecture the whole idea is that I have many, many notes and they're connected over a high performance network. It might be shocking for your listeners to hear that these networks today run at a utilization of no more than 20 to 25%. Question is why? Well, the reason is that if I tried to run them faster than that you start to get back at drops because there are some fundamental problems caused by congestion on the network which are unsolved as we speak today. There are only one solution which is to use TCP. Well, TCP is a well-known, is part of the TCP IP suite. TCP was never designed to handle the latencies and speeds inside data center. It's a wonderful protocol but it was invented 43 years ago now. >> Yeah, very reliable and tested and proven. It's got a good track record but you're right. >> Very good track record, unfortunately eats a lot of CPU cycles. So if you take the idea behind TCP and you say, okay, what's the essence of TCP? How would you apply it to the data center? That's what we've done with what we call FCP which is a fabric control protocol, which we intend to open. We intend to publish the standards and make it open. And when you do that and you embed FCP in hardware on top of this standard IP ethernet network you end up with the ability to run at very large-scale networks where the utilization of the network is 90 to 95%, not 20 to 25%. >> Wow, okay. >> And you end up with solving problems of congestion at the same time. Now, why is this important today? That's all geek speak so far. The reason this stuff is important is that it such a network allows you to disaggregate, pull and then virtualize the most important and expensive resources in the data center. What are those? It's computer on one side, storage on the other side. And increasingly even things like DRAM wants to be disaggregated. And well, if I put everything inside a general purpose server the problem is that those resources get stranded because they're stuck behind a CPU. Well, once you disaggregate those resources and we're saying hyper disaggregate meaning the hyper and the hyper disaggregate simply means that you can disaggregate almost all the resources. >> And then you going to reaggregate them, right? I mean, that's obviously- >> Exactly and the network is the key in helping. >> Okay. >> So the reason the company is called Fungible is because we are able to disaggregate, virtualize and then pull those resources. And you can get for so scale-out companies the large AWS, Google, et cetera they have been doing this aggregation tooling for some time but because they've been using a compute centric architecture their disaggregation is not nearly as efficient as we can make. And they're off by about a factor of three. When you look at enterprise companies they are off by another factor of four because the utilization of enterprise is typically around 8% of overall infrastructure. The utilization in the cloud for AWS, and GCP, and Microsoft is closer to 35 to 40%. So there is a factor of almost four to eight which you can gain by dis-aggregating and pulling. >> Okay, so I want to interrupt you again. So these hyperscalers are smart. They have a lot of engineers and we've seen them. Yeah, you're right they're using a lot of general purpose but we've seen them make moves toward GPUs and embrace things like Arm. So I know you can't name names, but you would think that this is with all the data that's in the cloud, again, our topic today. You would think the hyperscalers are all over this. >> Well, the hyperscalers recognized here that the problems that we have articulated are important ones and they're trying to solve them with the resources that they have and all the clever people that they have. So these are recognized problems. However, please note that each of these hyperscalers has their own legacy now. They've been around for 10, 15 years. And so they're not in a position to all of a sudden turn on a dime. This is what happens to all companies at some point. >> They have technical debt, you mean? (laughs) >> I'm not going to say they have technical debt, but they have a certain way of doing things and they are in love with the compute centric way of doing things. And eventually it will be understood that you need a third element called the DPU to address these problems. Now, of course, you've heard the term SmartNIC. >> Yeah, right. >> Or your listeners must've heard that term. Well, a SmartNIC is not a DPU. What a SmartNIC is, is simply taking general purpose ARM cores, putting the network interface and a PCI interface and integrating them all on the same chip and separating them from the CPU. So this does solve a problem. It solves the problem of the data center workload interfering with the application workload, good job, but it does not address the architectural problem of how to execute data center workloads efficiently. >> Yeah, so it reminds me of, I understand what you're saying I was going to ask you about SmartNICs. It's almost like a bridge or a band-aid. >> Band-aid? >> It almost reminds me of throwing a high flash storage on a disc system that was designed for spinning disc. Gave you something but it doesn't solve the fundamental problem. I don't know if it's a valid analogy but we've seen this in computing for a longtime. >> Yeah, this analogy is close because okay, so let's take a hyperscaler X, okay? We won't name names. You find that half my CPUs are crippling their thumbs because they're executing this data-centric workload. Well, what are you going to do? All your code is written in C++ on x86. Well, the easiest thing to do is to separate the cores that run this workload. Put it on a different let's say we use Arm simply because x86 licenses are not available to people to build their own CPUs so Arm was available. So they put a bunch of Arm cores, they stick a PCI express and a network interface and you bought that code from x86 to Arm. Not difficult to do but and it does you results. And by the way if for example this hyperscaler X, shall we called them, if they're able to remove 20% of the workload from general purpose CPUs that's worth billions of dollars. So of course, you're going to do that. It requires relatively little innovation other than to port code from one place to another place. >> Pradeep, that's what I'm saying. I mean, I would think again, the hyperscalers why can't they just do some work and do some engineering and then give you a call and say, okay, we're going to attack these workloads together. That's similar to how they brought in GPUs. And you're right it's worth billions of dollars. You could see when the hyperscalers Microsoft, and Azure, and AWS bolt announced, I think they depreciated servers now instead of four years it's five years. And it dropped like a billion dollars to their bottom line. But why not just work directly with you guys? I mean, let's see the logical play. >> Some of them are working with us. So that's not to say that they're not working with us. So all of the hyperscalers they recognize that the technology that we're building is a fundamental that we have something really special and moreover it's fully programmable. So the whole trick is you can actually build a lump of hardware that is fixed function. But the difficulty is that in the place where the DPU would sit which is on the boundary of a server and the network, is literally on that boundary, that place the functionality needs to be programmable. And so the whole trick is how do you come up with an architecture where the functionality is programmable but it is also very high speed for this particular set of applications. So the analogy with GPUs is nearly perfect because GPUs and particularly Nvidia implemented or they invented CUDA which is the programming language for GPUs. And it made them easy to use, made it fully programmable without compromising performance. Well, this is what we're doing with DPUs. We've invented a new architecture, we've made them very easy to program. And they're these workloads, not workloads, computation that I talked about which is security, virtualization, storage and then network. Those four are quintessential examples of data center workloads and they're not going away. In fact, they're becoming more, and more, and more important over time. >> I'm very excited for you guys, I think, and really appreciate Pradeep, we have your back because I really want to get into some of the secret sauce. You talked about these accelerators, eraser code and crypto accelerators. But I want to understand that. I know there's NBMe in here, there's a lot of hardware and software and intellectual property, but we're seeing this notion of programmable infrastructure extending now into this domain, this build-out of this, I like this term disaggregated, massive disaggregated network. >> Hyper disaggregated. >> It's so hyper disaggregated even better. And I would say this and then I got to go. But what got us here the last decade is not the same as what's going to take us through the next decade. >> That's correct. >> Pradeep, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. It's a great conversation. >> Thank-you for having me it's really a pleasure to speak with you and get the message of Fungible out there. >> Yeah, I promise we'll have you back. And keep it right there everybody we've got more great content coming your way on theCUBE on cloud. This is Dave Vellante. Stay right there. >> Thank-you, Dave.

>>Hello, everyone, and welcome to track three off beyond. My name is being in Yemen and I am an account executive here at Thought spot based out of our London office. If the accents throwing you off I don't quite sound is British is you're expecting it because the backgrounds Australian so you can look forward to seeing my face. As we go through these next few sessions, I'm gonna be introducing the guests as well as facilitating some of the Q and A. So make sure you come and say hi in the chat with any comments, questions, thoughts that you have eso with that I mean, this whole track, as the title somewhat gives away, is really about everything that you need to know and all the tips and tricks when it comes to adoption and making sure that your thoughts what deployment is really, really successful. We're gonna be taking off everything from user training on boarding new use cases and picking the right use cases, as well as hearing from our customers who have been really successful in during this before. So with that, though, I'm really excited to introduce our first guest, Kathleen Maley. She is a senior analytics executive with over 15 years of experience in the space. And she's going to be talking to us about all her tips and tricks when it comes to making the most out of your center of excellence from obviously an analytics perspective. So with that, I'm going to pass the mic to her. But look forward to continuing the chat with you all in the chat. Come say hi. >>Thank you so much, Bina. And it is really exciting to be here today, thanks to everyone for joining. Um, I'll jump right into it. The topic of evolving your analytics center of excellence is a particular passion of mine on I'm looking forward to sharing some of my best practices with you. I started my career, is a member of an analytic sioe at Bank of America was actually ah, model developer. Um, in my most recent role at a regional bank in the Midwest, I ran an entire analytics center of excellence. Um, but I've also been on the business side running my own P and l. So I think through this combination of experiences, I really developed a unique perspective on how to most effectively establish and work with an analytic CEO. Um, this thing opportunity is really a two sided opportunity creating value from analytics. Uh, and it really requires the analytics group and the line of business Thio come together. Each has a very specific role to play in making that happen. So that's a lot of what I'll talk about today. Um, I started out just like most analysts do formally trained in statistics eso whether your data analyst or a business leader who taps into analytical talent. I want you to leave this talk today, knowing the modern definition of analytics, the purpose of a modern sioe, some best practices for a modern sioe and and then the role that each of you plays in bringing this Kuito life. So with that said, let me start by level, setting on the definition of analytics that aligns with where the discipline is headed. Um, versus where it's been historically, analytics is the discovery, interpretation and communication of meaningful patterns in data, the connective tissue between data and effective decision making within an organization. And this is a definition that I've been working under for the last, you know, 7 to 10 years of my career notice there is nothing in there about getting the data. We're at this amazing intersection of statistics and technology that effectively eliminates getting the data as a competitive advantage on this is just It's true for analysts who are thinking in terms of career progression as it is for business leaders who have to deliver results for clients and shareholders. So the definition is action oriented. It's purposeful. It's not about getting the data. It's about influencing and enabling effective decision making. Now, if you're an analyst, this can be scary because it's likely what you spend a huge amount of your time doing, so much so that it probably feels like getting the data is your job. If that's the case, then the emergence of these new automated tools might feel like your job is at risk of becoming obsolete. If you're a business leader, this should be scary because it means that other companies air shooting out in front of you not because they have better ideas, necessarily, but because they can move so much faster. According to new research from Harvard Business Review, nearly 90% of businesses say the more successful when they equipped those at the front lines with the ability to make decisions in the moment and organizations who are leading their industries and embracing these decision makers are delivering substantial business value nearly 50% reporting increased customer satisfaction, employee engagement, improve product and service quality. So, you know, there there is no doubt that speed matters on it matters more and more. Um, but if you're feeling a little bit nervous, I want you to think of it. I want you think of it a little differently. Um, you think about the movie Hidden figures. The job of the women in hidden figures was to calculate orbital trajectories, uh, to get men into space and then get them home again. And at the start of the movie, they did all the required mathematical calculations by hand. At the end of the movie, when technology eliminated the need to do those calculations by hand, the hidden figures faced essentially the same decision many of you are facing now. Do I become obsolete, or do I develop a new set of, in their case, computer science skills required to keep doing the job of getting them into space and getting them home again. The hidden figures embraced the latter. They stayed relevant on They increase their value because they were able to doom or of what really mattered. So what we're talking about here is how do we embrace the new technology that UN burdens us? And how do we up skill and change our ways of working to create a step function increase in data enabled value and the first step, really In evolving your analytics? Dewey is redefining the role of analytics from getting the data to influencing and enabling effective decision making. So if this is the role of the modern analyst, a strategic thought partner who harnesses the power of data and directs it toward achieving specific business outcomes, then let's talk about how the series in which they operate needs change to support this new purpose. Um, first, historical CEOs have primarily been about fulfilling data requests. In this scenario, C always were often formed primarily as an efficiency measure. This efficiency might have come in the form of consistency funds, ability of resource is breaking down silos, creating and building multipurpose data assets. Um, and under the getting the data scenario that's actually made a lot of sense for modern Sealy's, however, the objective is to create an organization that supports strategic business decision ing for individuals and for the enterprises the whole. So let's talk about how we do that while maintaining the progress made by historical seaweeds. It's about really extending its extending what, what we've already done the progress we've already made. So here I'll cover six primary best practices. None is a silver bullet. Each needs to fit within your own company culture. But these air major areas to consider as you evolve your analytics capabilities first and foremost always agree on the purpose and approach of your Coe. Successfully evolving yourself starts with developing strategic partnerships with the business leaders that your organization will support that the analytics see we will support. Both parties need to explicitly blocked by in to the objective and agree on a set of operating principles on bond. I think the only way to do that is just bringing people to the table, having an open and honest conversation about where you are today, where you wanna be and then agree on how you will move forward together. It's not about your organization or my organization. How do we help the business solve problems that, you know, go beyond what what we've been able to do today? So moving on While there's no single organizational model that works for everyone, I generally favor a hybrid model that includes some level of fully dedicated support. This is where I distinguish between to whom the analyst reports and for whom the analyst works. It's another concept that is important to embrace in spirit because all of the work the analyst does actually comes from the business partner. Not from at least it shouldn't come from the head of the analytic Center of excellence. Andan analysts who are fully dedicated to a line of business, have the time in the practice to develop stronger partnerships to develop domain knowledge and history on those air key ingredients to effectively solving business problems. You, you know, how can you solve a problem when you don't really understand what it is? So is the head of an analytic sioe. I'm responsible for making sure that I hire the right mix of skills that I can effectively manage the quality of my team's work product. I've got a specialized skill set that allows me to do that, Um, that there's career path that matters to analysts on all of the other things that go along with Tele management. But when it comes to doing the work, three analysts who report to me actually work for the business and creating some consistency and stability there will make them much more productive. Um, okay, so getting a bit more, more tactical, um, engagement model answers the question. Who do I go to When? And this is often a question that business partners ask of a centralized analytics function or even the hybrid model. Who do I go to win? Um, my recommendation. Make it easy for them. Create a single primary point of contact whose job is to build relationships with a specific partner set of partners to become deeply embedded in their business and strategies. So they know why the businesses solving the problems they need to solve manage the portfolio of analytical work that's being done on behalf of the partner, Onda Geun. Make it make it easy for the partner to access the entire analytics ecosystem. Think about the growing complexity of of the current analytics ecosystem. We've got automated insights Business Analytics, Predictive modeling machine learning. Um, you Sometimes the AI is emerging. Um, you also then have the functional business questions to contend with. Eso This was a big one for me and my experience in retail banking. Uh, you know, if if I'm if I'm a deposits pricing executive, which was the line of business role that I ran on, I had a question about acquisitions through the digital channel. Do I talk Thio the checking analyst, Or do I talk to the digital analyst? Um, who owns that question? Who do I go to? Eso having dedicated POC s on the flip side also helps the head of the center of excellence actually manage. The team holistically reduces the number of entry points in the complexity coming in so that there is some efficiency. So it really is a It's a win win. It helps on both sides. Significantly. Um, there are several specific operating rhythms. I recommend each acting as a as a different gear in an integrated system, and this is important. It's an integrated decision system. All of these for operating rhythms, serves a specific purpose and work together. So I recommend a business strategy session. First, UM, a portfolio management routine, an internal portfolio review and periodic leadership updates, and I'll say a little bit more about each of those. So the business strategy session is used to set top level priorities on an annual or semiannual basis. I've typically done this by running half day sessions that would include a business led deep dive on their strategy and current priorities. Again, always remembering that if I'm going to try and solve all the business problem, I need to know what the business is trying to achieve. Sometimes new requester added through this process often time, uh, previous requests or de prioritized or dropped from the list entirely. Um, one thing I wanna point out, however, is that it's the partner who decides priorities. The analyst or I can guide and make recommendations, but at the end of the day, it's up to the business leader to decide what his or her short term and long term needs and priorities are. The portfolio management routine Eyes is run by the POC, generally on a biweekly or possibly monthly basis. This is where new requests or prioritize, So it's great if we come together. It's critical if we come together once or twice a year to really think about the big rocks. But then we all go back to work, and every day a new requests are coming up. That pipeline has to be managed in an intelligent way. So this is where the key people, both the analyst and the business partners come together. Thio sort of manage what's coming in, decking it against top priorities, our priorities changing. Um, it's important, uh, Thio recognize that this routine is not a report out. This routine is really for the POC who uses it to clarify questions. Raised risks facilitate decisions, um, from his partners with his or her partner so that the work continues. So, um, it should be exactly as long as it needs to be on. Do you know it's as soon as the POC has the information he or she needs to get back to work? That's what happens. An internal portfolio review Eyes is a little bit different. This this review is internal to the analytics team and has two main functions. First, it's where the analytics team can continue to break down silos for themselves and for their partners by talking to each other about the questions they're getting in the work that they're doing. But it's also the form in which I start to challenge my team to develop a new approach of asking why the request was made. So we're evolving. We're evolving from getting the data thio enabling effective business decision ing. Um, and that's new. That's new for a lot of analysts. So, um, the internal portfolio review is a safe space toe asks toe. Ask the people who work for May who report to May why the partner made this request. What is the partner trying to solve? Okay, senior leadership updates the last of these four routines, um, less important for the day to day, but significantly important for maintaining the overall health of the SIOE. I've usually done this through some combination of email summaries, but also standing agenda items on a leadership routine. Um, for for me, it is always a shared update that my partner and I present together. We both have our names on it. I typically talk about what we learned in the data. Briefly, my partner will talk about what she is going to do with it, and very, very importantly, what it is worth. Okay, a couple more here. Prioritization happens at several levels on Dive. Alluded to this. It happens within a business unit in the Internal Portfolio review. It has to happen at times across business units. It also can and should happen enterprise wide on some frequency. So within business units, that is the easiest. Happens most frequently across business units usually comes up as a need when one leader business leader has a significant opportunity but no available baseline analytical support. For whatever reason. In that case, we might jointly approach another business leader, Havenaar Oi, based discussion about maybe borrowing a resource for some period of time. Again, It's not my decision. I don't in isolation say, Oh, good project is worth more than project. Be so owner of Project Be sorry you lose. I'm taking those. Resource is that's It's not good practice. It's not a good way of building partnerships. Um, you know that that collaboration, what is really best for the business? What is best for the enterprise, um, is an enterprise decision. It's not a me decision. Lastly, enterprise level part ization is the probably the least frequent is aided significantly by the semi annual business strategy sessions. Uh, this is the time to look enterprise wide. It all of the business opportunities that play potential R a y of each and jointly decide where to align. Resource is on a more, uh, permanent basis, if you will, to make sure that the most important, um, initiatives are properly staffed with analytical support. Oxygen funding briefly, Um, I favor a hybrid model, which I don't hear talked about in a lot of other places. So first, I think it's really critical to provide each business unit with some baseline level of analytical support that is centrally funded as part of a shared service center of excellence. And if a business leader needs additional support that can't otherwise be provided, that leader can absolutely choose to fund an incremental resource from her own budget that is fully dedicated to the initiative that is important to her business. Um, there are times when that privatization happens at an enterprise level, and the collective decision is we are not going to staff this potentially worthwhile initiative. Um, even though we know it's worthwhile and a business leader might say, You know what? I get it. I want to do it anyway. And I'm gonna find budget to make that happen, and we create that position, uh, still reporting to the center of excellence for all of the other reasons. The right higher managing the work product. But that resource is, as all resource is, works for the business leader. Um, so, uh, it is very common thinking about again. What's the value of having these resource is reports centrally but work for the business leader. It's very common Thio here. I can't get from a business leader. I can't get what I need from the analytics team. They're too busy. My work falls by the wayside. So I have to hire my own people on. My first response is have we tried putting some of these routines into place on my second is you might be right. So fund a resource that's 100% dedicated to you. But let me use my expertise to help you find the right person and manage that person successfully. Um, so at this point, I I hope you see or starting to see how these routines really work together and how these principles work together to create a higher level of operational partnership. We collectively know the purpose of a centralized Chloe. Everyone knows his or her role in doing the work, managing the work, prioritizing the use of this very valuable analytical talent. And we know where higher ordered trade offs need to be made across the enterprise, and we make sure that those decisions have and those decision makers have the information and connectivity to the work and to each other to make those trade offs. All right, now that we've established the purpose of the modern analyst and the functional framework in which they operate, I want to talk a little bit about the hard part of getting from where many individual analysts and business leaders are today, uh, to where we have the opportunity to grow in order to maintain pain and or regain that competitive advantage. There's no judgment here. It's simply an artifact. How we operate today is simply an artifact of our historical training, the technology constraints we've been under and the overall newness of Applied analytics as a distinct discipline. But now is the time to start breaking away from some of that and and really upping our game. It is hard not because any of these new skills is particularly difficult in and of themselves. But because any time you do something, um, for the first time, it's uncomfortable, and you're probably not gonna be great at it the first time or the second time you try. Keep practicing on again. This is for the analyst and for the business leader to think differently. Um, it gets easier, you know. So as a business leader when you're tempted to say, Hey, so and so I just need this data real quick and you shoot off that email pause. You know it's going to help them, and I'll get the answer quicker if I give him a little context and we have a 10 minute conversation. So if you start practicing these things, I promise you will not look back. It makes a huge difference. Um, for the analyst, become a consultant. This is the new set of skills. Uh, it isn't as simple as using layman's terms. You have to have a different conversation. You have to be willing to meet your business partner as an equal at the table. So when they say, Hey, so and so can you get me this data You're not allowed to say yes. You're definitely not is not to say no. Your reply has to be helped me understand what you're trying to achieve, so I can better meet your needs. Andi, if you don't know what the business is trying to achieve, you will never be able to help them get there. This is a must have developed project management skills. All of a sudden, you're a POC. You're in charge of keeping track of everything that's coming in. You're in charge of understanding why it's happening. You're responsible for making sure that your partner is connected across the rest of the analytics. Um, team and ecosystem that takes some project management skills. Um, be business focused, not data focused. Nobody cares what your algorithm is. I hate to break it to you. We love that stuff on. We love talking about Oh, my gosh. Look, I did this analysis, and I didn't think this is the way I was gonna approach it, and I did. I found this thing. Isn't it amazing? Those are the things you talk about internally with your team because when you're doing that, what you're doing is justifying and sort of proving the the rightness of your answer. It's not valuable to your business partner. They're not going to know what you're talking about anyway. Your job is to tell them what you found. Drawing conclusions. Historically, Analyst spent so much of their time just getting data into a power 0.50 pages of summarized data. Now the job is to study that summarized data and draw a conclusion. Summarized data doesn't explain what's happening. They're just clues to what's happening. And it's your job as the analyst to puzzle out that mystery. If a partner asked you a question stated in words, your answer should be stated in words, not summarized data. That is a new skill for some again takes practice, but it changes your ability to create value. So think about that. Your job is to put the answer on page with supporting evidence. Everything else falls in the cutting room floor, everything. Everything. Everything has to be tied to our oi. Um, you're a cost center and you know, once you become integrated with your business partner, once you're working on business initiatives, all of a sudden, this actually becomes very easy to do because you will know, uh, the business case that was put forth for that business initiative. You're part of that business case. So it becomes actually again with these routines in place with this new way of working with this new way of thinking, it's actually pretty easy to justify and to demonstrate the value that analytic springs to an organization. Andi, I think that's important. Whether or not the organization is is asking for it through formalized reporting routine Now for the business partner, understand that this is a transformation and be prepared to support it. It's ultimately about providing a higher level of support to you, but the analysts can't do it unless you agree to this new way of working. So include your partner as a member of your team. Talk to them about the problems you're trying to sell to solve. Go beyond asking for the data. Be willing and able to tie every request to an overarching business initiative on be poised for action before solution is commissioned. This is about preserving. The precious resource is you have at your disposal and you know often an extra exploratory and let it rip. Often, an exploratory analysis is required to determine the value of a solution, but the solution itself should only be built if there's a plan, staffing and funding in place to implement it. So in closing, transformation is hard. It requires learning new things. It also requires overriding deeply embedded muscle memory. The more you can approach these changes is a team knowing you won't always get it right and that you'll have to hold each other accountable for growth, the better off you'll be and the faster you will make progress together. Thanks. >>Thank you so much, Kathleen, for that great content and thank you all for joining us. Let's take a quick stretch on. Get ready for the next session. Starting in a few minutes, you'll be hearing from thought spots. David Coby, director of Business Value Consulting, and Blake Daniel, customer success manager. As they discuss putting use cases toe work for your business

>> (narrator) From around the globe it's "theCUBE." With digital coverage of OutSystems-NextStep 2020. Brought to you by OutSystems. >> I'm Stu Miniman. And welcome back to thecubes coverage of OutSystems-NextStep. Of course, one of the items that we've been talking a lot in the industry is about how artificial intelligence machine learning are helping people as we go beyond what really human scale can do. And we need to be able to do things more machine scale to help us really dig into this topic. Happy to welcome to the program. First time, guest Antonio Alegria. He is the head of artificial intelligence at OutSystems. Antonio. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you Stu. I'm really happy to be here and really talk a little bit about what we're doing at OutSystems to help our customers and how we're leveraging AI to get to those goals. >> ( Stu) Wonderful. So I saw ahead of the event, a short video that you did and talked about extreme agility with no limits. So, you know, before we dig into the product itself, maybe if you could just, you know, how should we be thinking about AI? You know, there's a broad spectrum, is that, you know, machine learning that there's various components in there, you listened to the big analyst firms, you know, the journey it's big steps and something that is pretty broad. So when we're talking about AI, you know, what does that mean to you? What does that mean to your customers? >> Yeah, so AI OutSystems really speaks to the vision and the core strategy we have for our product. Which is, you know, if you saw the keynote, you know, we talk about, you know, really enabling every company, even those that, you know, that had existed for decades, perhaps have a lot of legacy to become, you know, leading elite cloud software development companies. And really can develop digital solutions at scale really easily. But one thing we see, and then this is a big statistic. One of the things that limits CIO's the most, nowadays is really the lack of talent. Lack of, you know, engineering and software engineering, you know, ability and people that can do that. And there's a statistic that was reported by wall street journal. I saw it recently, perhaps last year. That said that according to federal jobs data in the U S, by the end of 2020 there would be about a million unfilled IET and software development jobs available, right. So there's this big problem. All of these companies really need to scale, really need to invest in digital systems. And so our belief at OutSystems, we've already been abstracting, and we've been focusing on automating as much as possible, the software development tools and applications that we use. We've already seen amazing stories of people coming from different backgrounds, really starting to develop really leading edge applications. And we want to take this to the next level. And we believe that artificial intelligence with machine learning, but also with other AI technologies that we're also taking advantage of can really help us get to a next stage of productivity. So from 10 X productivity to 100 X productivity. And we believe AI plays a role in three ways. We believe AI by learning from all of this data that we now collect in terms of, you know, the projects that are being developed. We are essentially trying to embed a tech lead, so to speak inside a product. And a tech lead that can help developers by guiding them, guiding the most junior ones, by automating some of the boring, repetitive tasks where by validating their work, making sure that they are using the best practices, making sure that it helps them as they scale to refactor their code to automatically design their architectures, things like that. >> (Stu) Wonderful . Antonio. Goncalo, stated it quite clearly in the interview that I had with him, it's really about enabling that next, you know, 10 million developers. We know that there is that skill gap, as you said, and you know, everybody right now, how can I do more? How can I react faster? So that's where, you know, the machine learning artificial intelligence should be able to help. So bring us inside. I know the platform itself has had, you know, guidance and the whole movement. You know, what we used to call low code. Was about simplifying things and allowing people to, you know, build faster. So bring us inside the product, you know, what are the enhancements? What are the new pieces? Some of the key items. >> Yeah. So one interesting thing, and I think one thing that I think OutSystems is really proud of being able to achieve is, if you look at how OutSystems has been using a AI within the platform. We started with introducing AI assistance within the, our software development environment, service studio, right? And so this capability we've been iterating it a lot. We've been evolving it, and now it's really able to accelerate significantly and guide novices, but also help pros dealing through the software development process and coding. By essentially.... and trying to infer and understanding their context and trying to infer their intent, and then automating the steps afterwards. And we do this by suggesting you the most likely, let's say function or code piece that you will need. But then at the next step, which we're introducing this year even better, which is we're trying to autofill most of the, let's say the variables and all of that, and the data flow that you need to collect. And so you get a very delightful, frictionless experience as you are coding. So you're closer to the business value even more than before. Now, this was just the first step. What you're seeing now and what we're announcing, and we're showing at this next step that we showed at the keynote, is that we are trying to fuse.... starting to fuse AI across the OutSystems products and across the software development life cycle. So we took this core technology that we use to guide developers and assist and automate their work. And we use the same capability to help developers, tech leads and architects to analyze the code. Learning from the bad patterns that exist learning from and receiving runtime information about crashes and performance. And inside the product that we call Architecture Dashboard. We're really able to give recommendations to these architects and tech leads, where should they evolve and improve their code. And we're using AI, refusing AI in this product in two very specific ways. Now that we are releasing today. Which is one, is to automatically collect and design and define the architecture. So we call this automated architecture discovery. So if you have a very large factory, you can imagine, you know, have lots of different modules, lots of different applications. And if you need to go and manually have to label everything. So this is a front end, this is a backend. That would take a lot of time. So we use machine learning. Learning from what architects have already done in the past and classifying their architecture. And we can map out your architecture completely, automatically, which is really powerful. Then we also use our AI engine to analyze your factory. And we can detect the best opportunities for refactoring. So refactoring is one of the top problems and the top smells and technical debt problems that large factories have, right? So we can completely identify and pinpoint what are these opportunities for refactoring and we guide you through it. We tell you, okay, all of these hundreds of functions and logic patterns that we see in your code, you could de-refactor this into a single function, and you can save a lots and lots of code. Because you know, the best code, the fastest code, the easiest to maintain is the code you don't write, you don't have. So we're trying to really eliminate crack from these factories, with these capabilities. >> (Stu) Well. >> It's fascinating. You're absolutely right. I'm, curious, you know, I think back to some of the earliest interactions I had with things, they'd give you guidance, you know, spellcheckers, grammar check. How much does the AI that you work on, does it learn what's specific for my organization and my preferences? Is there any community learning over time? Because there are industry best practices out there that are super valuable, but, you know, we saw in the SAS wave. When I can customize things myself, we learn over time. So how does that play into kind of today in the roadmap for AI that you're building? >> That's a great question. So our AI, let's say technology that we used, it actually uses two different, big kinds of AI. So we use machine learning definitely to learn from the community, what are the best practices and what are the most common patterns that people use. So we use that to guide developers, but also to validate and analyze their code. But then we also use automated reasoning. So this is more logic based, reasoning based AI. And we pair these two technologies to really create a system that is able to learn from data, but also be able to reason it at a higher order, about what are good practices and kind of reach conclusions from there and learn new things from there. Now we started by applying these technologies to more of the community data and kind of standard best practices, but our vision is to more and more start learning specifically, and allowing tech leads and architects even, in the future to tailor these engines of AI, perhaps to suggest these are the best practices for my factory. These patterns perhaps are good best practices in general. But in my factory, I do not want to use them because I have some specificities for compliance or something like that. And our vision is that, architects and tech leads can just provide just a few examples of what they like and what they don't like. And the engine just automatically learns and gets tailored to their own environment. >> (Stu) Oh, important that you're able to, you know, have the customers move things forward to the direction that makes sense on their end. I'm also curious, you talk about, you know, what partnerships OutSystems has out there, you know, being able to tie into things like what the public cloud is doing, lots of industry collaboration. So, you know, how does health systems fit into the kind of the broader AI ecosystem? >> Yeah. So one thing I did not mention, and to your point is, so we have kind of two complimentary visions and strategies for AI. So one of them is we really want to improve our own product, improve the automation in the product in the abstraction by using AI, together with great user experience and the best programming language for software automation. Right? So that's one, that's what we generally call AI assistant development and infusing AI across the software development life cycle. The other one is we also believe that, you know, true elite cloud software companies that create frictionless experiences, one of the things that they use to really be super competitive and create these frictionless experiences is that they can themselves use AI and machine learning. To automate processes, create really, really delightful experiences. So we're also investing and we've shown. And we're launching and announcing at NextStep. We've just shown this at the keynote. One tool that we call the machine learning builder, ML builder. So this essentially speaks to the fact that, you know, a lot of companies do not have access to data science talent. They really struggle to adopt machine learning. Like just one out of 10 companies are able to go and put AI in production. So we're essentially abstracting also that. We're also increasing the productivity for customers to implement AI and machine learning. We use partners behind the scenes and cloud providers for the core technology, with automated machine learning and all of that. But we abstract all of the experience. So developers can essentially just pick the data they have already inside the AI systems platform. And they want to just select. I want to train this machine learning model to predict this field, just click, click, click. And it runs dozens of experiments, selects the best algorithms transforms the data for you without you needing to have a lot of data science experience. And then you can just drag and drop into platform. Integrate in your application. And you're good to go. >> (Stu) Well. Sounds, you know, phenomenal. You mentioned data scientists. We talked about that the skill gap. Do you have any statistics, you know, is this helping people, you know, hire faster, lower the bar to entry for people to get on board, you know, increase productivity, what kind of hero numbers do your customers typically, you know, how do they measure success? >> Yeah. So we know that in, for machine learning adoption at companies, we know that, sorry, this is one of the top challenges that they have, right? So companies do not, it's not only that they do not have the expertise to implement machine learning in their products and their applications. They don't even have a good understanding of what are the use cases in order the technology opportunities for them to apply. Right? So this has been listed by lots of different surveys that this is the top problem. These are the two of the top problems that companies have to adopt AI's. Access to skill, data science skill, and understanding of the use case. And that's exactly what we're trying to kind of package up in a very easy to use product, where you can see the use cases you have available. You just select your data. You just click train, you do not need to know the nitty gritty details. And for us, a measure of success is that we've seen customers that are starting to experiment with ML builder. Is that in just a day or a few days, they can iterate over several machine learning models and put them in production. We have customers that have, you know, no machine learning models in production ever. And they just now have two. And they're starting to automate processes. They're starting to innovate with business. And that for us is we've seen as kind of the measure of success for businesses. Initially, what they want to do is they want to do POC's, and they want to experiment and they want to get to production, start getting to field for it and iterate. >> (Stu) From a product standpoint, is the AI just infused in, or there are additional licensing, you know, how do customers, you know, take advantage of it? What's the impact on that from the relationships without systems? >> Yeah. So for AI and machine learning that is fused into our product. And for automation, validation and guidance, there's, you know, no extra charges, just part of the product is what we believe is kind of a core building block in a core service for everything we do in our product. For machine learning services and components that customers can use to.... in their own applications. We allow you to integrate with cloud providers and the billing is done separately. And that's something that we're working towards and building great technical partnerships and exploring other avenues for deeper integration, so that developers and customers do not really have to worry about those things as well. >> (Stu) Yeah. Well, it's such a great way to really democratize the use of this technology platform that they're used to. They start doing it. What's general feedback from your customers? Do they just like, "Oh, it's there." "I started playing with it." "It's super easy, it makes it better." Are there any concerns or pushback? Have we gotten beyond that? What do you hear? Any good customer examples you can share as to general adoption? >> Yeah. So as I said, as we reduce the friction for adopting these technologies. We've seen one thing that's very interesting. So we have a few customers that are, for example, more in the logistics side of industry and vertical. And so they have a more conservative management, like they take time to adopt. They're more of a laggard in adopting these kinds of technologies. The business is more skeptical. Doesn't want to spend a lot of time playing around, right. And once they saw what they could do with a platform, they quickly did a proof of concept. They showed to the business and the business had lots of ideas. So they just started interacting a lot more with IT. Which is something we see with OutSystems platform, not just for AI machine learning, but generally in the digital transformation. Is when the IT can start really being very agile and iterating and innovating. And they start collaborating a lot with the business. And so what we see is, customers asking us for even more. So customers want more use cases to be supported like this. Customers also the ones that are more mature, that already have their centers of excellence, and they have their data scientists for example. They want to understand how they can also bring in perhaps, their use of very specialized tools. How can they integrate that into the platform so that, you know, for certain use cases, developers can very quickly train their own models, but so specialized data science teams can also bring in and developers can integrate their models easily and put them into production. Which is one of the big barriers. We see in a lot of companies, people working on year long projects, they develop the models, but they struggle to get them to production. And so we really want to focus on the whole end to end journey. Either you're building everything within the AI platform, or you're bringing it from a specialized pro tool. We want to make that whole journey frictionless and smooth. >> ( STU) Antonio, final question I have for you. Of course, this space we're seeing maturing, you know, rapid new technologies out there. Give us a little look forward. What should we be expecting to see from OutSystems or things even a little broader as you look at your partner ecosystem over kind of the next six, 12, 18 months? >> Yeah. So what... We're going to continue to see a trend, I think from the cloud service providers of democratization of the AI services. So this is during, just starting to advanced and accelerate. As these providers started packaging. It's like, what our system is also doing, starting to packaging some specific well-defined use cases. And then making the journey for training these models and deploying super simple. That's one thing that's continued to ramp up. And we're going to move from a AI services, more focused on cognitive pre-trained models, right. That, which is kind of the status quo. To custom AI models based on your data. That's kind of the trend we're going to start seeing in that, OutSystems also pushing forward. Generally from the AI and machine learning application and technology side of thing. I think one thing that we are leading on is that you know, machine learning and deep learning is definitely one of the big drivers for the innovation that we're seeing in AI. But you're start seeing more and more what is called hybrid AI. Which is taking machine learning and database artificial intelligence with more logic based automated reasoning techniques in pairing these two to really create systems that are able to operate at a really higher level. A higher cognitive level, which is what OutSystems is investing internally in terms of research and development. And with partnerships with institutions like Carnegie Mellon University, and such as that. >> (Stu) Wonderful. Antonio, who doesn't want, you know, a tech expert sitting next to them, helping get rid of some of the repetitive, boring things or challenges. Thank you so much for sharing the updates. >> (Antonio) Thank you Stu Congratulations on your progress And definitely look forward to hearing more in the future. >> (Antonio) Thank you Stu. Have a good day. >> (Stu) All right. >> Stay tuned for more from OutSystems NextStep. I'm Stu Miniman. And thank you for watching the "theCUBE."