(upbeat music) >> Greetings from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We are on day three of the caves wall-to-wall coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon North America 21. We're pleased to welcome Mark Hinkle to the program, the co-founder and CEO of TriggerMesh. Mark welcome. >> Thank you, It's nice to be here. >> Lisa: Love the name. Very interesting TriggerMesh. Talk to us about what TriggerMesh does and what, when you were founded and what some of the gaps were that you saw in the market. >> Yeah, so TriggerMesh actually the Genesis of the name is in, cloud event, driven architecture. You trigger workloads. So that's the trigger and trigger mesh, and then mesh, we mesh services together, so cloud, so that's why we're called TriggerMesh. So we're a cloud native open source integration platform. And the idea is that, the number of cloud services are proliferating. You still have stuff in your data center that you can't decommission and just wholesale lift and shift to the cloud. So we wanted to provide a platform to create workflows from the data center, to the cloud, from cloud to cloud and not, and use all the cloud native design principles, but not leave your past behind. So that's, what we do. We're, very, we were cloud, we are cloud operators and developers, and we wanted the experience to be very similar to the way that DevOps folks are doing infrastructure code and deploying that we want to make it easy to do integration as code. So we follow the same design patterns, use the same domain languages, some of those tools like Hashi corpse, Terraform, and that that's what we do and how we go about doing it. >> Lisa: And when were you guys founded? >> September, 2018. >> Oh so your young, your three years young. >> Three years it's feels like 21 >> I bet. >> And startup years it's a lot has happened, but yeah, we my co-founder and I were former early cloud folks. We were at cloud.com worked through the OpenStack years and the CloudStack, and we just saw the pattern of, abstraction coming about. So first you abstract the hardware, then you abstract the operating system. And now at with the Kubernetes container, you know, evolution, you're abstracting it up to the application layer and we want it to be able to provide tooling that lets you take full advantage of that. >> Dave: So being founded in 2018, what's your perception of that? The shift that happened during the pandemic in terms of the drive towards cloud adoption and the demands for services like you provide? >> Mark: Yeah, I think it's a mixed blessing. So we, people became more remote. They needed to enable digital transformation. Biggest thing, I think that that for us is, you know, you don't go to the bank anymore. And the banking industry is doing, you know, exponentially more remote, online transactions than in person. And it's very important. So we decided that financial services is where we were going to start with first because they have a lot of legacy architecture. They have a lot of need to move to the cloud to have better digital experiences. And we wanted to enable them to, you know, keep their mainframes online while they were still doing cutting edge, you know, mobile applications, that kind of thing. >> Lisa: And of course the legacy institutions like the BFA's the Wells Fargo, they're competing with the fintechs who are much more nimble, much more agile and able to sort of disrupt the financial services industry. Was that part of also your decision to start in financial services? >> It was a little bit of luck because we started with our network and it turned out the, you know, we saw, we started talking to our friends early on, cause we're a startup and said, this is what we're going to do. And where it really resonated was PNC bank was our, one of our first customers. You know, another financial regulatory company was another one, a couple of banks in Europe. And we, you know, as we started talking about what we were doing, that we just gravitated there because they had the, the biggest need, even though everybody has the need, their businesses are, you know, critically tied to digital transformation. >> So starting with financial services. >> It's, it's counter intuitive, isn't it? >> It was counterintuitive, but it lends credibility to any other industry vertical that you're going to approach. >> Yeah, yeah it does. It's a, it's a great, they're going to be our hardest customers and they have more at stake than a lot of like transactions are millions and millions of dollars per hour for these folks. So they don't want to play around, they, they have no tolerance for failure. So it's a good start, but it's sort of like taking up jogging and running a marathon in your first week. It's very very grilling in that sense, but it really has made us a lot better and gave us a lot of insight into the kinds of things we need to do from not just functionality, but security and that kind of thing. >> Where are you finding these customers with respect to adoption of Kubernetes? Are they leading? Are they knowing we've got to get there eventually from an infrastructure perspective? >> So the interesting thing is Kubernetes is a platform for us to deliver on, so we, we don't require you to be a Kubernetes expert we offer it as a SaaS, but what happens is that the Kubernetes folks are the ones that we end up really engaging with earlier on. And I think that we find that they're in this phase of they're containerizing their apps, that's the first step. And then they're putting them on Kubernetes and then their next step is a security and integration path. So once she, I think they call it and this is my buzzword of the show day two operations, right? So they, they get to day two and then they have a security and an integration concern before they go live. So they want to be able to make sure that they don't increase their attack face. And then they also want to make sure that this newly deployed containerized infrastructure is as well integrated as the previous, you know, virtualized or even, you know, on the server infrastructure that they had before. >> So TriggerMesh, doesn't solely work in the containerized world, you're, you're sort of you're bridging the divide. >> Mark: Yes. >> What percentage of the workloads that you're seeing are the result of modernization migration, as opposed to standing up net new application environments in Kubernetes? Do you have a sense for that? >> I think we live in a lot in the brown field. So, you know, folks that have an existing project that they're trying to bridge to it versus the Greenfield kind of, you know, the, the huge wins that you saw in the early cloud days of the Netflix and the Twitter's Dwayne scale. Now we're talking to the enterprises who have, you know, they have existing concerns. So I would say that it's, it's mostly people that are, you know, very few net new projects, unless it's a modernization and they're getting ready to decommission an old one, which is. >> Dave: So Brownfield financial services. You just said, you know, let's just, let's just go after that. >> You know, yeah. I mean, we had this dart forward and we put up buzzwords, but no, it was, it was actually just, and you know, we're still finding our way as far as early on where we're open source folks. And we did not open source from day one, which is very weird when everybody's new, your identity is, you know, I worked, I was the VP of marketing for Linux foundation and no JS and all these open source projects. And my co-founder and I are Apache committers. And our project wasn't open yet because we had to get to the point where it could be open and people could be productive in the use and contribution. And we had to staff up engineers. And now I think this week we open-sourced our entire platform. And I think that's going to open up, you know, that's where we started because it was not necessarily the lowest hanging fruit, but the profitable, less profitable, lowest hanging fruit was financial services. Now we are letting our code out into the wild. And I think it'll be interesting to see what comes back. >> So you just announced that this week TriggerMesh integration platform as an open source project here at KubeCon, what's been some of the feedback? >> It's all been positive. I haven't heard anything negative. We did it, so we're very, very, there's a very, the culture around open source is very tough. It's very critical if you don't do it right. So I think we did a good job, we used enough, we used a OSI approved. They've been sourced, licensed the Apache software, a V2 license. We hired someone who was well-respected in the DevREL world from a chef who understands the DevOps sort of culture methodologies. We staffed up our engineers who are going to be helping the free and open source users. So they're successful and we're betting that that will yield business results down the road. >> Lisa: And what are the two I see on your website, two primary use cases that you guys support. Can you dig into details on that? >> So the first one is sort of a workflow automation and a really simple example of that is you have a, something that happens in one cloud. So for example, you take a picture on your phone and you upload it and it goes to Amazon and there is a service that wants to identify what's in that picture. And once you put it on the line and the internship parlance, you could kick off a workflow from TensorFlow, which is artificial intelligence to identify the picture. And there isn't a good way for clouds to communicate from one to the other, without writing custom blue, which is really what, what we're helping to get rid of is there's a lot of blue written to put together cloud native applications. So that's a workflow, you know, triggering a server less function is the workflow. The other thing is actually breaking up data gravity. So I have a warehouse of data, in my data center, and I want to start replicating some portion of that. As it changes to a database as a service, we can based on an event flow, which is passive. We're not, we're not making, having a conversation like you would with an API where there's an event stream. That's like drinking from the fire hose and TriggerMesh is the nozzle. And we can direct that data to a DBaaS. We can direct that data to snowflake. We can direct that data to a cloud-based data lake on Microsoft Azure, or we can split it up, so some events could go to Splunk and all of the events can go to your data lake or some of those, those things can be used to trigger workloads on other systems. And that event driven architecture is really the design pattern of the individual clouds. We're just making it multi-cloud and on-prem. >> Lisa: Do you have a favorite customer example that you think really articulates that the value of that use case? >> Mark: Yeah I think a PNC is probably our, well for the, for the data flow one, I would say we have a regular to Oracle and one of their customers it was their biggest SMB customer of last year. The Oracle cloud is very, very important, but it's not as tool. It doesn't have the same level of tooling as a lot of the other ones. And to, to close that deal, their regulatory customer wanted to use Datadog. So they have hundreds and hundreds of metrics. And what TriggerMesh did was ingest the hundreds and hundreds of metrics and filter them and connect them to Datadog so that, they could, use Datadog to measure, to monitor workloads on Oracle cloud. So that, would be an example of the data flow on the workflow. PNC bank is, is probably our best example and PNC bank. They want to do. I talked about infrastructure code integration is code. They want to do policy as code. So they're very highly regulatory regulated. And what they used to do is they had policies that they applied against all their systems once a month, to determine how much they were in compliance. Well, theoretically if you do that once a month, it could be 30 days before you knew where you were out of compliance. What we did was, we provided them a way to take all of the changes within their systems and for them to a server less cluster. And they codified all of these policies into server less functions and TriggerMesh is triggering their policies as code. So upon change, they're getting almost real-time updates on whether or not they're in compliance or not. And that's a huge thing. And they're going to, they have, within their first division, we worked with, you know, tens of policies throughout PNC. They have thousands of policies. And so that's really going to revolutionize what they're able to do as far as compliance. And that's a huge use case across the whole banking system. >> That's also a huge business outcome. >> Yes. >> So Mark, where can folks go to learn more about TriggerMesh, maybe even read about more specifically about the announcement that you made this week. >> TriggerMesh.com is the best way to get an overview. The open source project is get hub.com/triggermesh/trigger mesh. >> Awesome Mark, thank you for joining Dave and me talking to us about TriggerMesh, what you guys are doing. The use cases that you're enabling customers. We appreciate your time and we wish you best of luck as you continue to forge into financial services and other industries. >> Thanks, it was great to be here. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 21, stick around Dave and I, will be right back with our next guest.

(upbeat music) >> There are many constants in the storage business, relentlessly declining costs per bit. Innovations that perpetually battle the laws of physics, a seemingly endless flow of venture capital, very intense competition. And there's one other constant in the storage industry, Eric Herzog. And he joins us today in this CUBE video exclusive to talk about IBM's recent storage announcements. Eric, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you, my friend. >> Great Dave, thank you very much. Of course, IBM always loves to participate with theCUBE and everything you guys do. Thank you very much for inviting us to come today. >> Really our pleasure. So we're going to cover a lot of ground. IBM Storage made a number of announcements this month around data resilience. You've got a new as a service model. You've got performance enhancements. Eric, can you give us, give us the top line summary of the hard news? >> Yeah. Top line. IBM is enhancing data and cyber resiliency across all non mainframe platforms. We already have it on the mainframe of course, and we're changing CapEx to OpEx with our storage as a service. Those are the key takeaways and the hot ticket items from an end user perspective. >> So maybe we could start with sort of the cyber piece. I mean, wow. I mean the last 18 months have been incredible and you're just seeing, you know, new levels of threats. The work from home pivot has created greater exposure. Organizations are kind of rethinking hybrid. You're seeing the ascendancy of some of the sort of hot cyber startups, but, but you're also seeing the, not only of the attack vectors winded, but the, the techniques are different. You know, threat hunting has become much more important. Your responses to threats. You have to be really careful the whole ransomware thing. So what are some of the big trends that you guys are seeing that are kind of informing how you approach the market? >> Well, first of all, it's gotten a lot worse. In fact, Fortune magazine just released the Fortune 500 a couple of weeks ago, and they had a survey that's public of CEOs, and they said, "What's the number one threat to your business? With no list just what's the number one threat?" Cyber security was number one 66% of the Fortune 500 Chief Executive Officers. Not CIOs not CTOs, but literally the CEOs of the biggest companies in the world. However, it's not just big companies. It hits the mid size, the small companies, everyone is open now to cyber threats and cyber attacks. >> Yeah. So for sure. And it's (chuckles) across the board. Let's talk about your solution, the announcement that you made here. Safeguard Copy, I think is what the branding is. >> Yeah. So what we've done is we've got a number of different technologies within our storage portfolio. For example, with our Spectrum Protect product, we can see anomalous pattern detection and backup data sets. Why would that matter? If I am going to hold theCUBE for ransom, if I don't get control of your secondary storage, snaps, replicas, and backups, you can just essentially say, I'm not paying you. You could just do a recovery, right? So we have anomalous protection there. We see encryption, we encrypt at rest with no performance penalty with our FlashSystem's family. We do air gapping. And in case of safeguarded copy, it's a form of air gapping. So we see physical air gapping with tape. logical air gapping, but to a remote location with snaps or replicas to your Cloud provider, and then local logical on-prem, which is what safeguarded copy does. We've had this technology for many years now on the mainframe platform. And we brought it down to the non mainframe environments, Linux, UNIX, and the Windows Server world by putting safeguarded copy on our FlashSystem's portfolio. >> So, okay. So part of the strategy is air gapping. So you're taking a copy, your air gapping it. You probably, you probably take those snaps, you know, at different intervals, you mix that up, et cetera. How do you manage the copies? How do you ensure if I have to do a recovery that you've got kind of a consistent data set? >> Yeah. So a couple things, first of all, we can create on a single FlashSystem array the full array up to 15,000 immutable copies, essentially they're weren't, you can't delete them, you can't change them. On a per volume basis, you can have 255. This is all managed with our storage copy manager, which can automate the entire process. Creation, deletion, frequency, and even recovery mode. So for example, I could have volume one and volume one perhaps I need to make immutable copies every four hours, while at 255 divided by four a day, I can go for many months and still be making those immutable copies. But with our Copy Services Manager, you can set up to be only 30 days, 60 days, you can set the frequency and once you set it up, it's all automated. And you can even integrate with IBM's QRadar, which is a threat detection and breach software from the security division of IBM. And when certain threats hit, it can actually automatically kick off a safeguarded copy. So what we do is make sure you've got that incredibly rapid recovery. And in fact, you can get air gapping, remotely. We have this on the main frame and a number of large global Fortune 500's actually do double air gapping, local logical, right? So they can do recovery in just a couple hours if they have an attack. And then they take that local logical and either go remote logical. Okay. Which gives them a second level of protection, or they'll go out to tape. So you can use this in a myriad of ways. You can have multiple protection. We even, by the way Dave, have three separate different admin levels. So you can have three different types of admins. One admin can't delete, one admin can. So that way you're also safe from what I'll call industrial espionage. So you can never know if someone's going to be stealing stuff from inside with multiple administrative capabilities, it makes it more difficult for someone to steal your data and then sell it to somebody. >> So, okay. Yeah, right. Because immutable is sort of, well, you're saying that you can set it up so that only one admin has control over that, is that right? If you want it... >> There's three, there's three admins with different levels of control. >> Right. >> And the whole point of having a three admins with different levels of control, is you have that extra security from an internal IT perspective versus one person, again, think of the old war movies, you know, nuclear war movies. Thank God it's never happened. Where two guys turn the key. So you've got some protection, we've got multiple admin level to do that as well. So it's a great solution with the air gapping. It's rapid recovery because it's local, but it is fully logically air gapped separated from the host. It's immutable, it's WORM, Write Once, Read Many can't delete can't change. Can't do anything. And you can automate all the management with our Copy Services Manager software that will work with safeguard copy. >> You, you talked about earlier, you could detect anomalous behavior. So, so presumably this can help with, with detecting threats, is that? >> Well, that's what our spectrum protect product does. My key point was we have all levels of data resiliency across the whole portfolio, whether it be encrypting data at rest, with our VTLs, we can encrypt in-flight. We have safeguarded copy on the mainframe, safeguarded copy on FlashSystems, any type of storage, including our competitor storage. You could air gap it to tape, right? With our spectrum virtualized software in our SAN Volume Controller, you could actually air gap out to a Cloud for 500 arrays that aren't even ours. So what we've done is put in a huge set of data and cyber resiliency across the portfolio. One thing that I've noticed, Dave, that's really strange. Storage is intrinsic to every data center, whether you're big, medium, or small. And when most people think about a cybersecurity strategy from a corporate perspective, they usually don't even think about storage. I've been shocked, but I've been in meetings with CEOs and VPs and they said, "oh, you're right, storage is, is a risk." I don't know why they don't think of it. And clearly many of the security channel partners, right? You have channel that are very focused on security and security consultants, they often don't think about the storage gaps. So we're trying to make sure, A, we've got broad coverage, primary storage, secondary storage, backup, you know, all kinds of things that we can do. And we make sure that we're talking to the end users, as well as the channel to realize that if you don't have data resilience storage, you do not have a corporate cybersecurity strategy because you just left out the storage part. >> Right on. Eric, are you seeing any use case patterns emerge in the customer base? >> Well, the main use case is prioritizing workloads. Obviously, as you do the immutable copies, you chew up capacity. Right now there's a good reason to do that. So you've got these immutable copies, but what they're doing is prioritizing workloads. What are the workloads? I absolutely have to have up and going rapidly. What are other workloads that are super important, but I could do maybe remote logical air gapping? What ones can I put out to tape? Where I have a logical, where I have a true physical air gap. But of course tape can take a long recovery time. So they're prioritizing their applications, workloads and use case to figure out what they need to have a safeguarded copy with what they could do. And by the way, they're trying to do that as well. You know, with our FlashSystem products, we could encrypt data at rest with no performance penalty. So if you were getting, you know, 30,000 database records and they were taken, you know, 10 seconds for sake of argument, when you encrypt, normally you slow that down. Well, guess what, when you encrypt with our FlashSystem product. So in fact, you know, it's interesting Dave, we have a comprehensive and free cyber resiliency assessment, no charge to the end-user, no charge to a business partner if they want to engage with us. And we will look at based on the NIST framework, any gaps. So for example, if theCUBE said, these five databases are most critical databases, then part of our cyber resilience assess and say, "ah, well, we noticed that you're not encrypting those. Why are you not encrypting those?" And by the way, that cyber resilience assessment works not only for IBM storage, but any storage estate they've got. So if they're homogenous, we can evaluate that if they're heterogeneous in their storage estate would evaluate that, and it is vendor agnostic and conforms to the NIST framework, which of course is adopted all over the world. And it's a great thing for people to get free, no obligation. You don't have to buy a single thing from IBM. It's just a free assessment of their storage and what cyber security exposure they have in their storage estate. And that's a free thing that we offer that includes safeguarded copy, encryption, air gapping, all the various functionality. And we'll say, "why are you not encrypting? Why are you not air gapping?" That if it's that important, "what, why are you leaving these things exposed?" So that's what our free cyber resilience assessment does. >> Got to love those freebies take advantage of those for sure. A lot of, a lot of organizations will charge big bucks for those. You know, maybe not ridiculously huge bucks, but you're talking tens of thousands. Sometimes you'll get up to hundreds of thousands of dollars for that type of type of assessment. So that's, you've got to take advantage of that if you're a customer out there. You know, I, I wanted to ask you about just kind of shift topics here and get into the, as a service piece of it. So you guys announced your, your as a service for storage, a lot of people have also done that. What do we need to know about the IBM Solution? And what's different from the others, maybe two part question, but what's the first part. What do we need to know? >> A couple of thing is, from an overall strategy perspective, you don't buy storage. It's a full OpEx model. IBM retains legal title. We own it. We'll do the software upgrades as needed. We may even go ahead and swap the physical system out. You buy an SLA, a tier if you will. You buy capacity, performance, we own it. So let's take an easy one. Our tier two, we give you our worst case performance at 2,250 IOPS per terabyte. Our competitors by the way, when you look at their contracts and look what they're putting out there, they will give you their best case number. So if they're two is 2,250, that's the best case. With us it's our worst case, which means if your applications or workloads get 4,000 IOPS per terabyte, it's free. We don't charge you for that. We give you the worst case scenario and our numbers are higher than our competition. So we make sure that we're differentiated true OpEx model. It's not a modified Lease model. So it's truly converts CapEx into operational expense. We have a base as everybody does, but we have a variable. And guess what? There's the base price and the variable price are the same. So if you don't use the variable, we don't charge you. We bill you for 1/4 in arrears, every feature function that's on our FlashSystem technology such as safeguarded copy, which we just talked about. AI based tiering, data at rest encryption with no performance penalty, data in compression with no performance, all those features you get, all of them, all we're doing is giving you an option. We still let you buy CapEx. We will let you lease with IBM Global Financial Services. And guess what? You could do a full OpEx model. The technology though, our flash core modules, our spectrum virtualized software is all the same. So it's all the same feature function. It's not some sort of stripped down model. We even offer Dave, 100% availability option. We give Six Nines of availability as a default, several of the competitor, which is only five minutes and 26 seconds of downtime, several of our competitors, guess what they give? Fournines. If you want five or six, you got to pay for it. We just give you six as a default differentiator, but then we're the only vendor to offer 100% availability guarantee. Now that is an option. It's the one option. But since we're already at Six Nines, when our competitors are at Four or Five Nines, we already have better availability with our storage as a service than the competition does. >> So let me just make this, make sure I'm clear on this. So you got Six Nines as part of the service. That's >> Absolutely >> Fundamental. And I get, I can pay up for 100% availability option. And, >> Yes you can. >> So what does that, what does that mean? Practically? You're putting in redundancies and, >> Right, right. So we have a technology known as HyperSwap. We have several public references by the way, at ibm.com. We've been shipping HyperSwap on both the mainframe, probably eight or nine years now. We brought it to our FlashSystem product probably five years ago. As I mentioned, we've got public references. You don't pay for the software by the way, you do have to have a dual node cluster. And HyperSwap allows you to do that. But you can do that as a service. You can buy it. You can do as CapEx, right? When you need the additional FlashSystem to go with it again, the software is free. So you're not to pay for the software. You just have to pay for the additional system level componentry, but you can do that as a service and have it completely be an OpEx model as well. We even assign a technical account manager to every account. Every account gets a technical account manager. If you will, concierge service comes with every OpEx version of our storage as a service. >> So what does that mean? What does that concierge do? Just paying attention to (indistinct) >> Concierge service will do a quarterly, a quarterly review with you. So let's say theCUBE bought 10,000 other analyst firms in the industry. You're now the behemoth. And you at theCUBE are using IBM storage as a service. You call up your technical account manager to say, "Guess what? We just bought these companies. We're going to convert them all to storage as a service, A, we need a higher tier, you could upgrade the tier B, we have a one-year contract, but you know what we'd like to extend it to two, C, we think we need more capacity." You tell your technical account manager, they'll take care of all of that for you, as well as giving you best practices. For example, if you decide you want to do safeguarded copy, which you can do, because it's built into our spectrum virtualized software, which is part of our storage as a service, we can give you best practices on that he would tell you, or she would tell you about our integration with our security visions, QRadar. So those are various best practices. So the technical account manager makes sure the software is always up to date, right? All the little things that you would have to do yourself if you own it, we take care of, because we legally own it, which is allow you to buy it as a service. So it is a true OpEx model from a financial perspective. >> In the term of the contracts are what? One, two and three years. >> One to five. >> Yeah. Okay. >> If you don't renew and you don't cancel, we'll automatically re up you at the exact tier you're at, at the exact same price. Several of our competitors, by the way, if you do that, they actually charge you a premium until you sign a contract. We do not. So if you have a contract based on tier two, right? We go buy SLA tier one, tier two, tier three. So if I have a tier two contract at theCUBE, and you forgot to get the contract done at the end of two years, but you still want it, you can go for the next 2/4. I mean, well our business partner as I should say, "Dave, don't you want to sign a contract, you said you like it." Obviously you would, but we will let you stay. You just say, now I want to keep it without a contract. And we don't charge your premium. Our competitors if you don't have a contract, they charge your premium. If you keep it installed without putting a contract in place. So little things like that clearly differentiate what we do. We don't charge a premium. If you go above the base. One of the competitors, in fact, when you go into the variable space, okay? And by the way, we provide 50% extra capacity. We over-provision. The other competitors usually do 25%. We do 50%. No charge, is just part of the service. So the other vendors, if you go into the variable space, they raised the price. So if it's $5, you know, for X capacity and you go into the, which is your base, and then you go above that, they charge you $7 and 50 cents. We don't. It's $5 at the base and $5 at the variable. Now obviously your variable can be very big or very small, but whatever the variable is, we charge you. But we do not charge you an a bigger price. Couple of competitors when you go into the variable world, they charge you more. Guess what it gets you to do, raise your base capacity. (Eric laughs) >> Yeah. I mean, that's, that should, the math should be the opposite of that, in my view. If you make a commitment to a vendor, say, okay, I'm going to commit to X. You have a nice chart on this, actually in your, in your deck. If I'm going to commit to X, and then I'm going to add on, I would think the add on price per bit should be at the same or lower. It shouldn't be higher. Right? And I get, I get what you're saying there. They're forcing you to jack up the base, but then you're taking all the risk. That's not a shared risk model. I get... >> And that's why we made sure that we don't do that. In fact, Dave, you can, you know, the fact that we don't charge you a premium if you go beyond your contract period and say, "I still wanted to do it, but I haven't done the contract yet." The other guys charge you a premium, if you go beyond your contract period. We don't do that either. So we try to be end-user friendly, customer friendly, and we've also factored in our business partners can participate in this program. At least one of our competitors came out with a program and guess what? Partners could not participate. It was all direct. And that company by happens to have about 80% of their business through the channel and their partners were basically cut out of the model, which by the way, is what a lot of Cloud providers had done in the past as well. So it was not a channel friendly model, we're channel friendly, we're end user-friendly, it's all about ease of use. In fact, when you need more capacity, it takes about 10 minutes to get the new capacity up and going, that's it? >> How long does it take to set up? How long does it take to set up initially? And how long does it take to get new capacity? >> So, first of all, we deploy either in a Colo facility that you've contracted with, including Equinix, Equinix, is part of our press release, or we install on your site. So the technical account managers is assigned, he would call up theCUBE and say, "When is it okay for us to come install the storage?" We install it. You don't install anything. You just say, here's your space. Go ahead and install. We do the installation. You then of course do the normal rationing of the capacity to this goes to this Oracle, this goes to SAP. This goes to Mongo or Cassandra, right? You do that part, but we install it. We get it up and going. We get it turned on. We hook it up to your switching infrastructure. If you've got switching infrastructure, we do all of that. And then when you need more capacity, we use our storage insights pro which automatically monitors capacity, performance, and potential tech support problems. So we give you 50% extra, right? If you drop that to 25%, so you now don't have 50% extra anymore, you only have 25% extra, we'll, the technical account manager would call you and say, "Dave, do you know that we'd like to come install extra capacity at no charge to get you back up to that 50% margin?" So we always call because it's on your site or in your Colo facility, right? We own the asset, but we set it up and you know, it takes a week or two, whatever it takes to ship to whatever location. Now by the way, our storage as a service for 2021 will be in North America and Europe only, we are really expanding our storage as a service outside into Asia and into Latin America, et cetera, but not until 2022. So we'll start out with North America and Europe first. >> So I presume part of that is figuring out just the compensation models right? And so how, how did you solve that? I mean, you can't, you know, you don't seem to be struggling with that. Like some do. I think there's some people dipping their toes in the water. Was that because, you know, IBM's got experience with like SAS pricing or how were you thinking about that and how did you deal with kind of the internal (indistinct) >> Sure. So, first of all, we've had for several years, our storage utility model. >> Right? >> Our storage utility model has been sort of a hybrid part CapEx and part OpEx. So first of all, we were already halfway there to an OpEx model with our storage utility model that's item, number one. It also gave us the experience of the billing. So for example, we bill you for a full quarter. We don't send you a monthly bill. We send you a quarterly bill. And guess what, we always bill you in arrears. So for example, since theCUBE is going to be a customer this quarter, we will send you a bill for this quarter in October for the October quarter, we'll send you a bill for that quarter in January. Okay. And if it goes up, it goes up. If it goes down, it goes down. And if you don't use any variable, there's no bill. Because what we do is the base you pay for once a year, the variable you pay for by on a quarterly basis. So if you, if you are within the base, we don't send you a bill at all because there's no bill. You didn't go into the variable capacity area at all. >> I love that. >> When you have a variable It can go up and down. >> Is that unique to some, do some competitors try to charge you up front? Like if it's a one-year term. (Dave laughs) >> Everbody charges, everybody builds yearly on the base capacity. Pretty much everyone does that. >> Okay, so upfront you pay for the base? Okay. >> Right. And the variable can be zero. If you really only use the base, then there is no variable. We only bill for it's a pay for what you use model. So if you don't use any of the variable, we never charge you for variable. Now, you know, because you guys have written about it, storage grows exponentially. So the odds of them ending up needing some of the variable is moderately high. The other thing we've done is we didn't just look at what we've done with our storage utility model, but we actually looked at Cloud providers. And in fact, not only IBM storage, but almost every of our competitors does a comparison to Cloud pricing. And when you do apples to apples, Cloud vendors are more expensive than storage as a services, not just from us, but pretty much for a moment. So let's take an example. We're Six Nines by default. Okay. So as you know, most Cloud providers provide three or Fournines as the default. They'll let you get five or Six Nines, but guess what? They charge you extra. So item number one. Second thing, performance, as you know, the performance of Cloud storage is usually very weak, but you can make it faster if you want to. They charge extra for that. We're sitting at 2,250 terabytes per IOPS, excuse me, per terabytes. That's incredible performance If you've got 100 terabytes, okay. And if your applications and workloads and that's the worst case, by the way, which differentiates from our competitors who usually quote the best case, we quote you the worst case and our worst case by the way, is almost always higher than their best cases in each of the tiers. So at their middle tier, our worst case is usually better than their best case. But the point is, if you get 4,000 IOPS per terabyte and you're on a tier two contract, it's a two-tier contract. And in fact, let's say that theCUBE has a five-year deal. And we base this on our FlashSystem technology. And so let's say for tier two, for sake of argument, FlashSystem, 7,200. We come out two years after theCUBE has it installed with the FlashSystem, 7,400. And let's say the FlashSystem, 7,400, won't deliver a 2,250 IOPS per terabyte, but 5,000, if we choose to replace it, 'cause remember it's our physical property. We own it. If we choose to replace that 7,200 with a 7,400, and now you get 5,000 IOPS per terabyte, it's free. You signed a tier two contract for five years. So two years later, if we decide to put a different physical system there and it's faster, or has four more software features, we don't charge you for any of that. You signed an SLA for tier two. >> You haven't Paid for capacity, right? All right. >> You are paying for the capacity (indistinct) performance, you don't pay for that. If we swap it out and the, the array is physically faster, and has got five new software features. You pay nothing, you pay what your original contract was based on the capacity. >> What I'm saying is you're learning from the Cloud providers 'cause you are a Cloud provider. But you know, a lot of the Cloud providers always sort of talk about how they lower prices. They lower prices, but you know, well, you worked at storage companies your whole life and they, they lower prices on a regular basis because they 'cause the cost of the curve. And so. >> Right. The cost of storage to Cloud, I mean, the average price decline in the storage industry is between 15 and 25%, depending on the year, every single year. >> Right. >> As, you know, you used to be with one of those analysts firms that used to track it by the numbers. So you've seen the numbers. >> For sure. Absolutely. >> On average it drops 15 to 25% every year. >> So, what's driving this then? If it's, it's not necessarily, is it the shift from, from CapEx to OPEX? Is it just a more convenient model than on a Cloud like model? How do you see that? >> So what's happened in IT overall is of course it started with people like salesforce.com. Well, over 10 years ago, and of course it's swept the software industry software as a service. So once that happened, then you now see infrastructure as a service, servers, switches, storage, and an IBM with our storage as a service, we're providing that storage capability. So that as a service model, getting off of the traditional licensing in the software world, which still is out there, but it's mostly now is mostly software as a service has now moved into the infrastructure space. From our perspective, we are giving our business partners and our customers, the choice. You still want to buy it. No problem. You want to lease it? No problem. You want a full OpEx model. No problem. So for us, we're able to offer any of the three options. The, as a service model that started in software has moved now into the systems world. So people want to change often that CapEx into OpEx, we can even see Global Fortune 500s where one division is doing something and a different division might do something else, or they might do it different by geography. In a certain geography, they buy our FlashSystem products and other geographies they lease them. And in other geographies it's, as a service. We are delivering the same feature, function, benefit from a performance availability software function. We just give them a different way to procure. Do you want CapEx you want leasing or OpEx you pick what you want, we'll deliver the right solution for you. >> So, you got the optionality. And that's great. You've thought that out, but, but the reason I'm asking Eric, is I'm trying to figure out this is not just for you for everybody. Is this a check-off item or is this going to be the prevailing way in which storage is consumed? So if you had, if you had a guess, let's go far out. So we're not making any near-term forecast, but end of the decade, is this going to be the dominant model or is it going to be, you know, one of the few. >> It will be one of a few, but it'll be a big few. It'll be the big, one of the biggest. So for sake of argument, there we'll still be CapEx, they'll still be OpEx they'll still be, or there will be OpEx and they're still be leasing, but I will bet you, you know, at the end of this decade, it'll be 40 to 50% will be on the OpEx model. And the other two will have the other 50%. I don't think it's going to move to everything 'cause remember, it's a little easier during the software world. In the system world, you've got to put the storage, the servers, or the networking on the prem, right? Otherwise you're not truly, you know, you got to make it a true OpEx model. There's legal restrictions. You have to make it OpEx, if not, then, you know, based on the a country's practice, depending on the country, you're in, they could say, "Well, no, you really bought that. It's not really a service model." So there's legal constraints that the software worldwise easier to get through and easier to get to bypass. Right? So, and remember, now everything is software as a service, but go back when salesforce.com was started, everyone in the enterprise was doing ELAs and all the small companies were buying some sort of contract, right, or buying by the (indistinct) basis. It took a while for that to change. Now, obviously the predominant model is software as a service, but I would argue given when salesforce.com started, which was, you know, 2007 or so, it took a good 10 years for software as a service to become the dominant level. So I think A, it won't take 10 full years because the software world has blazed a trail now for the systems world. But I do think you'll see, right. We're sitting here know halfway through 2021, that you're going to have a huge percentage. Like I said, the dominant percentage will be OpEx, but the other two will still be there as well. >> Right. >> By the way, you know in software, almost, no one's doing ELAs these days, right? A few people still do, but it's very rare, right? It's all software as a service. So we see that over time doing the same thing in the, in the infrastructure side, but we do think it will be slower. And we'll, we'll offer all three as, as long as customers want it. >> I think you're right. I think it's going to be mixed. Like, do I care more about my income statement or my balance sheet and the different companies or individual different divisions are going to have different requirements. Eric, you got to leave it there. Thanks much for your time and taking us through this announcement. Always great to see you. >> Great. Thank you very much. We really appreciate our time with theCUBE. >> All right. Thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome to this "Cube Conversation." My name is Dave Vellante and you know, containers, they used to be stateless and ephemeral but they're maturing very rapidly. As cloud native workloads become more functional and they go mainstream persisting, and protecting the data that lives inside of containers, is becoming more important to organizations. Enterprise capabilities such as high availability or reliability, scalability and other features are now more fundamental and important and containers are linchpin of hybrid cloud, cross-cloud and edge strategies. Now fusing these capabilities together across these regions in an abstraction layer that hides that underlying complexity of the infrastructure, is where the entire enterprise technology industry is headed. But how do you do that without making endless copies of data and managing versions not to mention the complexities and costs of doing so. And with me to talk about how IBM thinks about and is solving these challenges are Eric Herzog, who's the Chief Marketing Officer and VP of Global Storage Channels. For the IBM Storage Division is Sam Werner is the vice president of offering management and the business line executive for IBM Storage. Guys, great to see you again, wish should, were face to face but thanks for coming on "theCUBE." >> Great to be here. >> Thanks Dave, as always. >> All right guys, you heard me my little spiel there about the problem statement. Eric, maybe you could start us off. I mean, is it on point? >> Yeah, absolutely. What we see is containers are going mainstream. I frame it very similarly to what happened with virtualization, right? It got brought in by the dev team, the test team, the applications team, and then eventually of course, it became the main state. Containers is going through exactly that right now. Brought in by the dev ops people, the software teams. And now it's becoming again, persistent, real use clients that want to deploy a million of them. Just the way they historically have deployed a million virtual machines, now they want a million containers or 2 million. So now it's going mainstream and the feature functions that you need once you take it out of the test sort of play with stage to the real production phase, really changes the ball game on the features you need, the quality of what you get, and the types of things you need the underlying storage and the data services that go with that storage,. to do in a fully container world. >> So Sam how'd we get here? I mean, container has been around forever. You look inside a Linux, right? But then they did, as Eric said, go mainstream. But it started out the, kind of little experimental, As I said, their femoral didn't really need to persist them, but it's changed very quickly. Maybe you could talk to that evolution and how we got here. >> I mean, well, it's been a look, this is all about agility right? It's about enterprises trying to accelerate their innovation. They started off by using virtual machines to try to accelerate access to IT for developers, and developers are constantly out, running ahead. They got to go faster and they have to deliver new applications. Business lines need to figure out new ways to engage with their customers. Especially now with the past year we had it even further accelerated this need to engage with customers in new ways. So it's about being agile. Containers promise or provide a lot of the capabilities you need to be agile. What enterprises are discovering, a lot of these initiatives are starting within the business lines and they're building these applications or making these architectural decisions, building dev ops environments on containers. And what they're finding is they're not bringing the infrastructure teams along with them. And they're running into challenges that are inhibiting their ability to achieve the agility they want because their storage needs aren't keeping up. So this is a big challenge that enterprises face. They want to use containers to build a more agile environment to do things like dev ops, but they need to bring the infrastructure teams along. And that's what we're focused on now. Is how do you make that agile infrastructure to support these new container worlds? >> Got it, so Eric, you guys made an announcement to directly address these issues. Like it's kind of a fire hose of innovation. Maybe you could take us through and then we can unpack that a little bit. >> Sure, so what we did is on April 27th, we announced IBM Spectrum Fusion. This is a fully container native software defined storage technology that integrates a number of proven battle-hardened technologies that IBM has been deploying in the enterprise for many years. That includes a global scalable file system that can span edge core and cloud seamlessly with a single copy of the data. So no more data silos and no more 12 copies of the data which of course drive up CapEx and OpEx. Spectrum Fusion reduces that and makes it easier to manage. Cuts the cost from a CapEx perspective and cuts a cost for an OpEx perspective. By being fully container native, it's ready to go for the container centric world and could span all types of areas. So what we've done is create a storage foundation which is what you need at the bottom. So things like the single global namespace, single accessibility, we have local caching. So with your edge core cloud, regardless of where the data is, you think the data's right with you, even if it physically is not. So that allows people to work on it. We have file locking and other technologies to ensure that the data is always good. And then of course we'd imbued it with the HA Disaster Recovery, the backup and restore technology, which we've had for years and have now made of fully container native. So spectrum fusion basically takes several elements of IBM's existing portfolio has made them container native and brought them together into a single piece of software. And we'll provide that both as a software defined storage technology early in 2022. And our first pass will be as a hyperconverged appliance which will be available next quarter in Q3 of 2021. That of course means it'll come with compute, it'll come with storage, come with a rack even, come with networking. And because we can preload everything for the end users or for our business partners, it would also include Kubernetes, Red Gat OpenShift and Red Hat's virtualization technology all in one simple package, all ease of use and a single management gooey to manage everything, both the software side and the physical infrastructure that's part of the hyperconverged system level technologies. >> So, maybe it can help us understand the architecture and maybe the prevailing ways in which people approach container storage, what's the stack look like? And how have you guys approached it? >> Yeah, that's a great question. Really, there's three layers that we look at when we talk about container native storage. It starts with the storage foundation which is the layer that actually lays the data out onto media and does it in an efficient way and makes that data available where it's needed. So that's the core of it. And the quality of your storage services above that depend on the quality of the foundation that you start with. Then you go up to the storage services layer. This is where you bring in capabilities like HA and DR. People take this for granted, I think as they move to containers. We're talking about moving mission critical applications now into a container and hybrid cloud world. How do you actually achieve the same levels of high availability you did in the past? If you look at what large enterprises do, they run three site, for site replication of their data with hyper swap and they can ensure high availability. How do you bring that into a Kubernetes environment? Are you ready to do that? We talk about how only 20% of applications have really moved into a hybrid cloud world. The thing that's inhibiting the other 80% these types of challenges, okay? So the storage services include HA DR, data protection, data governance, data discovery. You talked about making multiple copies of data creates complexity, it also creates risk and security exposures. If you have multiple copies of data, if you needed data to be available in the cloud you're making a copy there. How do you keep track of that? How do you destroy the copy when you're done with it? How do you keep track of governance and GDPR, right? So if I have to delete data about a person how do I delete it everywhere? So there's a lot of these different challenges. These are the storage services. So we talk about a storage services layer. So layer one data foundation, layer two storage services, and then there needs to be connection into the application runtime. There has to be application awareness to do things like high availability and application consistent backup and recovery. So then you have to create the connection. And so in our case, we're focused on open shift, right? When we talk about Kubernetes how do you create the knowledge between layer two, the storage services and layer three of the application services? >> And so this is your three layer cake. And then as far as like the policies that I want to inject, you got an API out and entries in, can use whatever policy engine I want. How does that work? >> So we're creating consistent sets of APIs to bring those storage services up into the application, run time. We in IBM have things like IBM cloud satellite which bring the IBM public cloud experience to your data center and give you a hybrid cloud or into other public cloud environments giving you one hybrid cloud management experience. We'll integrate there, giving you that consistent set of storage services within an IBM cloud satellite. We're also working with Red Hat on their Advanced Cluster Manager, also known as RACM to create a multi-cluster management of your Kubernetes environment and giving that consistent experience. Again, one common set of APIs. >> So the appliance comes first? Is that a no? Okay, so is that just time to market or is there a sort of enduring demand for appliances? Some customers, you know, they want that, maybe you could explain that strategy. >> Yeah, so first let me take it back a second. Look at our existing portfolio. Our award-winning products are both software defined and system-based. So for example Spectrum Virtualize comes on our flash system. Spectrum Scale comes on our elastic storage system. And we've had this model where we provide the exact same software, both on an array or as standalone piece of software. This is unique in the storage industry. When you look at our competitors, when they've got something that's embedded in their array, their array manager, if you will, that's not what they'll try to sell you. It's software defined storage. And of course, many of them don't offer software defined storage in any way, shape or form. So we've done both. So with spectrum fusion, we'll have a hyper-converged configuration which will be available in Q3. We'll have a software defined configuration which were available at the very beginning of 2022. So you wanted to get out of this market feedback from our clients, feedback from our business partners by doing a container native HCI technology, we're way ahead. We're going to where the park is. We're throwing the ball ahead of the wide receiver. If you're a soccer fan, we're making sure that the mid guy got it to the forward ahead of time so you could kick the goal right in. That's what we're doing. Other technologies lead with virtualization, which is great but virtualization is kind of old hat, right? VMware and other virtualization layers have been around for 20 now. Container is where the world is going. And by the way, we'll support everything. We still have customers in certain worlds that are using bare metal, guess what? We work fine with that. We worked fine with virtual as we have a tight integration with both hyper V and VMware. So some customers will still do that. And containers is a new wave. So with spectrum fusion, we are riding the wave not fighting the wave and that way we could meet all the needs, right? Bare metal, virtual environments, and container environments in a way that is all based on the end users applications, workloads, and use cases. What goes, where and IBM Storage can provide all of it. So we'll give them two methods of consumption, by early next year. And we started with a hyper-converged first because, A, we felt we had a lead, truly a lead. Other people are leading with virtualization. We're leading with OpenShift and containers where the first full container-native OpenShift ground up based hyper-converged of anyone in the industry versus somebody who's done VMware or some other virtualization layer and then sort of glommed on containers and as an afterthought. We're going to where the market is moving, not to where the market has been. >> So just follow up on that. You kind of, you got the sort of Switzerland DNA. And it's not just OpenShift and Red Hat and the open source ethos. I mean, it just goes all the way back to San Volume Controller back in the day where you could virtualize anybody's storage. How is that carrying through to this announcement? >> So Spectrum Fusion is doing the same thing. Spectrum Fusion, which has many key elements brought in from our history with Spectrum Scale supports not IBM storage, for example, EMC Isilon NFS. It will support, Fusion will support Spectrum Scale, Fusion will support our elastic storage system. Fusion will support NetApp filers as well. Fusion will support IBM cloud object storage both software defined storage, or as an array technology and Amazon S3 object stores and any other object storage vendor who's compliant with S3. All of those can be part of the global namespace, scalable file system. We can bring in, for example, object data without making a duplicate copy. The normal way to do that as you make a duplicate copy. So you had a copy in the object store. You make a copy and to bring that into the file. Well, guess what, we don't have to do that. So again, cutting CapEx and OpEx and ease of management. But just as we do with our flash systems product and our Spectrum Virtualize and the SAN Volume Controller, we support over 550 storage arrays that are not ours that are our competitors. With Spectrum Fusion, we've done the same thing, fusion, scale the IBM ESS, IBM cloud object storage, Amazon S3 object store, as well as other compliance, EMC Isilon NFS, and NFS from NetApp. And by the way, we can do the discovery model as well not just integration in the system. So we've made sure that we really do protect existing investments. And we try to eliminate, particularly with discovery capability, you've got AI or analytics software connecting with the API, into the discovery technology. You don't have to traverse and try to find things because the discovery will create real time, metadata cataloging, and indexing, not just of our storage but the other storage I'd mentioned, which is the competition. So talk about making it easier to use, particularly for people who are heterogeneous in their storage environment, which is pretty much the bulk of the global fortune 1500, for sure. And so we're allowing them to use multiple vendors but derive real value with Spectrum Fusion and get all the capabilities of Spectrum Fusion and all the advantages of the enterprise data services but not just for our own product but for the other products as well that aren't ours. >> So Sam, we understand the downside of copies, but then, so you're not doing multiple copies. How do you deal with latency? What's the secret sauce here? Is it the file system? Is there other magic in here? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I'll build a little bit off of what Eric said, but look one of the really great and unique things about Spectrum Scale is its ability to consume any storage. And we can actually allow you to bring in data sets from where they are. It could have originated in object storage we'll cash it into the file system. It can be on any block storage. It can literally be on any storage you can imagine as long as you can integrate a file system with it. And as you know most applications run on top of the file system. So it naturally fits into your application stack. Spectrum Scale uniquely is a globally parallel file system. So there's not very many of them in the world and there's none that can achieve what Spectrum Scale can do. We have customers running in the exabytes of data and the performance improves with scales. So you can actually deploy Spectrum Scale on-prem, build out an environment of it, consuming whatever storage you have. Then you can go into AWS or IBM cloud or Azure, deploy an instance of it and it will now extend your file system into that cloud. Or you can deploy it at the edge and it'll extend your file system to that edge. This gives you the exact same set of files and visibility and we'll cash in only what's needed. Normally you would have to make a copy of data into the other environment. Then you'd have to deal with that copy later, let's say you were doing a cloud bursting use case. Let's look at that as an example, to make this real. You're running an application on-prem. You want to spin up more compute in the cloud for your AI. The data normally you'd have to make a copy of the data. You'd run your AI. They have to figure out what to do with that data. Do you copy some of the fact? Do we sync them? Do you delete it? What do you do? With Spectrum Scale just automatically cash in whatever you need. It'll run there and you get assigned to spin it down. Your copy is still on-prem. You know, no data is lost. We can actually deal with all of those scenarios for you. And then if you look at what's happening at the edge, a lot of say video surveillance, data pouring in. Looking at the manufacturing {for} looking for defects. You can run a AI right at the edge, make it available in the cloud, make that data available in your data center. Again, one file system going across all. And that's something unique in our data foundation built on Spectrum Scale. >> So there's some metadata magic in there as well, and that intelligence based on location. And okay, so you're smart enough to know where the data lives. What's the sweet spot for this Eric? Are there any particular use cases or industries that we should be focused on or is it through? >> Sure, so first let's talk about the industries. We see certain industries going more container quicker than other industries. So first is financial services. We see it happening there. Manufacturing, Sam already talked about AI based manufacturing platforms. We actually have a couple clients right now. We're doing autonomous driving software with us on containers right now, even before Spectrum Fusion with Spectrum Scale. We see public of course, healthcare and in healthcare don't just think delivery at IBM. That includes the research guys. So the genomic companies, the biotech companies, the drug companies are all included in that. And then of course, retail, both on-prem and off-prem. So those are sort of the industries. Then we see from an application workload, basically AI analytics and big data applications or workloads are the key things that Spectrum Fusion helps you because of its file system. It's high performance. And those applications are tending to spread across core ,edge and cloud. So those applications are spreading out. They're becoming broader than just running in the data center. And by the way they want to run it just into the data center, that's fine. Or perfect example, we had giant global auto manufacturer. They've got factories all over. And if you think there isn't compute resources in every factory, there is because those factories I just saw an article, actually, those factories cost about a billion dollars to build them, a billion. So they've got their own IT, now it's connected to their core data center as well. So that's a perfect example that enterprise edge where spectrum fusion would be an ideal solution whether they did it as software defined only, or of course when you got a billion dollar factory, just to make it let alone produce the autos or whatever you're producing. Silicon, for example, those fabs, all cost a billion. That's where the enterprise edge fits in very well with Spectrum Fusion. >> So are those industries, what's driving the adoption of containers? Is it just, they just want to modernize? Is it because they're doing some of those workloads that you mentioned or is there's edge? Like you mentioned manufacturing, I could see that potentially being an edge is the driver. >> Well, it's a little bit of all of those Dave. For example, virtualization came out and virtualization offered advantages over bare metal, okay? Now containerization has come out and containerization is offering advantage over virtualization. The good thing at IBM is we know we can support all three. And we know again, in the global fortune 2000, 1500 they're probably going to run all three based on the application workload or use case. And our storage is really good at bare metal. Very good at virtualization environments. And now with Spectrum Fusion are container native outstanding for container based environments. So we see these big companies will probably have all three and IBM storage is one of the few vendors if not the only vendor that could adroitly support all three of those various workload types. So that's why we see this as a huge advantage. And again, the market is going to containers. We are, I'm a native California. You don't fight the wave, you ride the wave. and the wave is containers and we're riding that wave. >> If you don't ride the wave you become driftwood as Pat Gelsinger would say. >> And that is true, another native California. I'm a whole boss. >> So okay, so, I wonder Sam I sort of hinted upfront in my little narrative there but the way we see this, as you've got on-prem hybrid, you got public clouds across cloud moving to the edge. Open shift is I said is the linchpin to enabling some of those. And what we see is this layer that abstracts the complexity, hides the underlying complexity of the infrastructure that becomes kind of an implementation detail. Eric talked about skating to the park or whatever sports analogy you want to use. Is that where the park is headed? >> Yeah, I mean, look, the bottom line is you have to remove the complexity for the developers. Again, the name of the game here is all about agility. You asked why these industries are implementing containers? It's about accelerating their innovation and their services for their customers. It's about leveraging AI to gain better insights about their customers and delivering what they want and proving their experience. So if it's all about agility developers don't want to wait around for infrastructure. You need to automate it as much as possible. So it's about building infrastructure that's automated, which requires consistent API APIs. And it requires abstracting out the complexity of things like HA and DR. You don't want every application owner to have to figure out how to implement that. You want to make those storage services available and easy for a developer to implement and integrate into what they're doing. You want to ensure security across everything you do as you bring more and more of your data of your information about your customers into these container worlds. You've got to have security rock solid. You can't leave any exposures there and you can't afford downtime. There's increasing threats from things like ransomware. You don't see it in the news every day but it happens every single day. So how do you make sure you can recover when an event happens to you? So yes, you need to build a abstracted layer of storage services and you need to make it simply available to the developers in these dev ops environments. And that's what we're doing with spectrum fusion. We're taking, I think, extremely unique and one of a kind storage foundation with Spectrum Scale that gives you single namespace globally. And we're building onto it an incredible set of storage services, making extremely simple to deploy enterprise class container applications. >> So what's the bottom line business impact. I mean, how does this change? I mean, Sam, you I think articulated very well through all about serving the developers versus you know, storage, admin provisioning, a LUN. So how does this change my organization, my business? What's the impact there? >> I've mentioned one other point that we talk about an IBM a lot, which is the AI ladder. And it's about how do you take all of this information you have and be able to take it to build new insights, to give your company and advantage. An incumbent in an industry shouldn't be able to be disrupted if they're able to leverage all the data they have about the industry and their customers. But in order to do that, you have to be able to get to a single source of data and be able to build it into the fabric of your business operations. So that all decisions you're making in your company, all services you deliver to your customers, are built on that data foundation and information and the only way to do that and infuse it into your culture is to make this stuff real time. And the only way to do that is to build out a containerized application environment that has access to real-time data. The ultimate outcome, sorry, I know you asked for business results is that you will, in real time understand your clients, understand your industry and deliver the best possible services. And the absolute, business outcome is you will continue to gain market share and your environment and grow revenue. I mean, that's the outcome every business wants. >> Yeah, it's all about speed. Everybody's kind of, everybody's last year was forced into digital transformation. It was sort of rushed into and compressed and now they get some time to do it right. And so modernizing apps, containers, dev ops developer led sort of initiatives are really key to modernization. All right, Eric, we've got, we're out of time but give us the bottom summary. We didn't talk, actually, we had to talk about the 3,200. Maybe you could give us a little insight on that before we close. >> Sure, so in addition to what we're doing with Fusion we also introduced a new elastic storage system, 3,200 and it's all flash. It gets 80 gigs, a second sustained at the node level and we can cluster them infinitely. So for example, I've got 10 of them. I'm delivering 800 gigabytes, a second sustained. And of course, AI, big data analytic workloads are extremely, extremely susceptible to bandwidth and or data transfer rate. That's what they need to deliver their application base properly. It comes with Spectrum Scale built in so that comes with it. So you get the advantage of Spectrum Scale. We talked a lot about Spectrum Scale because it is if you will, one of the three fathers of spectrum fusion. So it's ideal with it's highly parallel file system. It's used all over in high performance computing and super computing, in drug research, in health care in finance, probably about 80% of the world's largest banks in the world use Spectrum Scale already for AI, big data analytics. So the new 3,200 is an all flash version twice as fast as the older version and all the benefit of Spectrum Scale including the ability of seamlessly integrating into existing Spectrum Scale or ESS deployments. And when Fusion comes out, you'll be able to have Fusion. And you could also add 3,200 to it if you want to do that because of the capability of our global namespace and our single file system across edge, core and cloud. So that's the 3,200 in a nutshell, Dave. >> All right, give us a bottom line, Eric. And we got to go, what's the bumper sticker. >> Yeah, bumper sticker is, you got to ride the wave of containers and IBM storage is company that can take you there so that you win the big surfing context and get the big prize. >> Eric and Sam, thanks so much, guys. It's great to see you and miss you guys. Hopefully we'll get together soon. So get your jabs and we'll have a beer. >> All right. >> All right, thanks, Dave. >> Nice talking to you. >> All right, thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for "theCUBE." We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to the BizOps Manifesto Power panel talking about, "Embracing Agility Across the Business." I'm Lisa Martin, there are three guests here with me today, to break down this topic. Pierre Viljoen, CTO at Global Head of Enterprise Technology and Governance at HTL Enterprise Studio. Hey Pierre, welcome. >> Thank you >> Lisa: Dave West is also here, the CEO of Scrum.org. Hey Dave, good to have you with us. >> Hi Lisa, hi everybody. >> Lisa: And Serge Lucio is here as well, the general manager of Broadcom's Enterprise Software Division. Hey Serge, good to have you on the program. >> Thank you, good to be here. >> So we're going to be talking about the people and the process and technology requirements that businesses need to adopt to be able to embrace agility across the business. We're going to also be talking a lot about this inaugural BizOps industry research survey, on the state of digital business. A lot of very interesting findings that we're going to go through in the next 20 minutes or so. So the first question guys is, the BizOps survey found that over 519 individuals over five countries business and technology executives. This survey found, most organizations still expect this year to be as challenging as last year. I want you to kind of walk us through why that is, and how is that going to impact digital transformation initiatives? Pierre, we'll start with you, then Dave, then Serge. >> Sure, thank you Lisa. So, I think these days, disruption is no longer an exception. It's kind of become the norm or the rule, in terms of how we operate. And as executives in companies have learned over the last year, with everything that's happened is that, you can only modernize to a point, and then you need to do a little bit more. And what really is needed is for us to understand, going forward, how we're actually going to remodel our business by harnessing the resources that we have in a much more agile way, in a more fluent way, from an organizational perspective. And I think our current midterm goal, probably, is that we're capable of remodeling how we can remove roadblocks. These kinds of roadblocks in the future, and get us in a better position where we are. I don't expect things to change dramatically over the next year. More in line with us making sure that we're more future proof in the way in which we're working. >> We still have remote workers, global uncertainty, the vaccine. Dave, what are your thoughts on the impact of this year on digital transformation initiatives? >> Yeah, it's funny. When I think of, sort of uncertainty and chaos, I think that COVID really started it rolling down a hill, but unfortunately it's literally like rolling down a hill, these chaos and complexity. It's getting faster and faster and harder and harder. We're talking about the new norm, right? What is the new normal? We just don't know. And I think the reality is that most organizations were surprised by the impact of COVID-19 and because of that, they responded very quickly. Many of them, people were working at home, they're looking at their supply chain, looking at localization, all sorts of really important things happen, but very quickly, not very strategically. I think the next few years we're going to see, hopefully, some of that realizing into strategy and actually starting to fundamentally change how the business is looking at the world. We've sort of entered the digital age, Lisa, this next age of innovation, we have moved out of mass production and the age of oil, into something very, very different. And I think those organizations, every organization out there is going to have to get a handle on that and COVID was the wake up, right? And I think the next five years are going to be very interesting. >> I agree with you that that accelerant was, I didn't think of it before as a big ball rolling downhill. And now I don't think I'm going to be able to get that out of my head. But Serge, talk to us about your thoughts, the impacts to digital transformation initiatives. >> Yeah, I think back to what Dave was describing. The big challenge is the uncertainty. Many organizations are faced with, currently, a lot of unknowns about, if and when things will go back to, quote unquote, some kind of normality. And with that kind of uncertainty, there's a lot of challenges to the planning from an investment point of view. So, Dave was talking about a short-term versus long-term Like, a lot of these organizations are basically focused on just getting by over the next 12 months and trying to figure out what needs to happen over the next 12 months. At the same time, there's a lot of challenges with respect to readiness and uncertainty. And so, in that context, you got kind of this tension between, "How much do I invest short term "on basically tactical initiatives, "How do I care about teams? "How do I enable these teams "to deliver in weeks as opposed to months? "And then at the same time, "how do I continue to invest "to fundamentally change my operating model?" And that tension is very real. Within many of the organizations we serve. >> One of the things that the survey found was that most of the respondents were very willing to embrace being more agile in order to be able to better respond to rapidly changing market conditions. But I want to get your opinion on what that actually really means, that willingness to embrace being agile. What does it really mean? And what do organize organizations have to do differently? Pierre, I'll start with you. >> Sure, I think we had a discussion a while back and Dave actually got into something interesting where he said, without quoting a famous sneaker brand, just go out and do it. I think that's probably the most important part of this. Most organizations are struggling to figure out, "How should we embrace Agile? "Should we jump in at full scale now? "Should we be looking Scrum? "Should we be doing Scrum-Falls? "Should we be falling over our own feet?" Nobody knows exactly, what might be the right sector? I think the most important part is to pick up a pair of solid principles that you're going to embrace, start executing on them, start learning as you go, and basically improve as you move forward. Over the last year, we've embraced digital product management quite a lot on our side. And it's had tremendous benefits without us, per se, aiming for those benefits at the end of the day. And these are things that you learn as you go. And if you're going to wait around, analysis paralysis is going to be the killer of Agile at the end of day >> "Just do it," I like that. Good advice. Dave, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, so, I think that what's really interesting is, Agile has been around for 20 years. The manifesto was signed 20 years ago. Scrum came into the world 25 years ago. All of these sort of Agile approaches, but they were predominantly focused on technology. And I think that one thing that I've noticed, over and over again, is that the realization by C-level executives, level sevens, or whatever they're called, they've realized that it's not about technology. (chuckles) It's great, the technologies. I guess the technology's always worked in this complex world because customers never knew what they wanted. We didn't know how are we going to do it. We'd never worked together before. We didn't know how much it was going to cost. So, because of that (chuckles) we had to work in an agile way in technology. But ultimately, I think, one of the big differences going forward, is going to be that, there I say that intersection of business and technology, that BizOps kind of model that we talked about in the manifesto, and what the survey was really trying to tease out. I think that's really, really going to be interesting. And I don't know what that actually means, in terms of the execution. I hope it means that we're going to see teams better aligned to business outcomes. I hope it means that we're going to actually allow those teams that are actually know what they're approaching to make decisions. I hope it means that planning is going to be more directional rather than task level. I hope it means that we're going to start measuring the success in terms of business outcomes, not in terms of the work that we do. I hope it means all of these things. But we will wait and see, because experience would indicate that after a big disaster, lots of people tend to go back to exactly how they worked before, with that sort of emus kind of mentality or ostrich or whatever things sticks its head in the ground. I don't know. >> Sometimes we just want to go back to when things were safe and normal. But in terms of kind of following on, Dave, what you said, 94%, in this survey, 94% of respondents said we should adopt BizOps to increase competitiveness. So, that willingness is there in a vast majority of the respondents. So, I'd like to get your thoughts on what that willingness actually means and what they need to do differently. >> Yes. The problem is that, I think everybody understand that you have to be agile, right? You need to be able to respond quickly to your customer needs. You need to put the customer at the center of everything you do, right? So, conceptually, everybody understands that. The problem is really the operating model that many of these large organizations are dealing with to this day, right? So, you have these sort of Berkeley, kind of organized organization, with functional roles, specialized roles. And when you think about kind of generally, well, one of the big challenges is that you need to start to think horizontally, right? You need to start to start to think about what kind of value streams and what part of the cross functional teams that need to be organized and integrated to deliver on specific business outcomes. You need to start shifting from the traditional contract-based model that(indistinct) to a model which is much more based on trust, right? And we need to move away from vanity measurements and KPIs that many of the organizations typically lead by, to really focus on one thing and one thing only, which is that business value has been delivered. So, fundamentally, I think it requires a bit of a redesign of the operating model in these organizations. And one where, especially when you have a risk adversed kind of organizations, you need to start to be more accepting of risk, fundamentally. >> More accepting of risk. You brought something up there starts that I want to tackle in the next question with respect to culture. But one of the things that the survey uncovered was an interesting kind of seeming contradiction. The majority of respondents said, "We agreed, digital transformation "is about business outcomes "more than it is about technology." But 62% said, "We're still adopting technology for technology's sake." What does that actually mean? And what's the kind of cultural impact there for organizations to really get that more aligned on the digital transformation and the technology and the business outcomes? Pierre, we'll start with you. >> Sure. So, I think there were a number of reports this year talking about what's happened, what's not happened, and the majority of them focused on the fact that, as tech leaders, for years we've been praying to the gods to get budget approved to do all kinds of modernization activities to our infrastructure, our IT, tools, et cetera. And, lo and behold, the ball comes rolling down the hill, smashes a few things and we basically get some blank checks. So, we run around and we buy a whole bunch of stuff to modernize and to embrace this ability to do things differently. And in that whole process, what we basically did was buy more tools and buy more technology. And in that whole process, we didn't really embrace what it is that we're trying to achieve. So, basically aligning the technology to the actual business requirements getting closer to the customer, being able to understand where our market's moving, how we're capable of reducing the journey, if I can put it that way, and make sure that we're more aligned to where we need to be. So, although a lot of CIOs and CTOs got away with doing a lot of great stuff over the last year and users like me are like, "Ooh! I don't have to worry "about stupid VPNs and things anymore." That all went away. But in the same instance, I didn't really get anything that changed the organizational dynamic, which is a challenge. We still have the fundamental problems we have because the business leaders are not yet embracing the deep monitor of the processes that are supported by the technology. And then driving that in such a way that we can gain more business value which is important. To Serge's previous point, we're doing all these great things but we're not focusing on the incremental value that we're supposed to be getting. >> Dave, did it surprise you that there was this seemingly contradictory response? Yes, it's more about business outcomes and technology, but we're still adopting technology for technology's sake. What are your thoughts on that? And how can organizations actually start to move the needle on that? >> E-comm by cultural change, right? But you do know that your board and your leadership want you to do something, and the easiest thing you can do is buy something. I'm a sort of now an American, so, that's kind of my mantra in life, right? "When in doubt go shopping." Which is fantastic, just for the record. (Lisa laughs) But so, you've got to be seen to be doing something, whether it's replacing a VPN, which is always a fun thing to do, or whether it's getting on Slack. Everyone's going to be on Slack. that's going to help. But actually the core is that, exactly what Serge and Pierre have been saying all along, it's that, "Okay. So what is our business all about? "What are our customers? "what did they actually need? "What do our employees need? "How do we build a better value stream "from customer to the organization? "How do we align our teams to that? "How do we incentivize correctly "both the employees that are working "and our partners that are providing things "in this supply chain. How do we do all of those things?" Ultimately though, that means that we have to take a step back which is a very frustrating thing at the moment. And actually look at what is our business all about? What is the mission of it? Who are the customers? Take a moment to find what those are. And then, soon as we have that, and we don't have to do it. As Pierre said, we don't have to do it completely. We can do it incrementally. Organizations are very inward looking. That is the industrial mindset. That is that paradigm. It's looking, as Serge talked about, silos, "optimizing my department," "optimizing my budget, optimizing my kingdom." And what we're talking about is something that cross cuts all of that. So, the decision making is going to change around where the investments go and that's going to be really, really challenging. So, I'm not surprised, I'm not at all surprised that everybody says we should be doing this. And it's like classic. Everybody says we need to be fitter, but we're still all not fit. (Serge laughs) It's sort of, that's just the reality of the world that we live in, right? But we have to start making a stand. And the place we begin is customers. That's the place. And as soon as we start doing that, then everything else just becomes quite easy, actually. >> I like that. Focus on customers and it becomes easy. Serve, I'm kidding. What are your thoughts on this? >> Yeah, I think Dave summarized it well. It's very easy to just buy a tool or buy something, right? Fundamentally changing kind of an operating model is very difficult, but you need to fundamentally rethink for instance, all the responding initiatives. So, something as mundane as, You know, as a leader in my organization I have a budget, right? What's my incentive of collaborating with my peers in terms of delivering credible analysis form. And so, that to me kind of a fundamental shift that we need to operate, and that's probably one of the reasons why many of our largest organizations that we're serving are starting to introduce some new roles like a Chief Digital Officer, as kind of a way to kind of bring kind of a slightly different organization design. The challenge, though, is that, well, all of these teams are still kind of integrated with this fabric of these large systems which exist. So when we look at these value streams, in fact they're not independent from one another. You have a bunch of interdependencies. You are looking at kind of networks of these value streams. But the fundamental shift that we need to see is what we want these organizations to think about, ultimately with the part of the products or services that need to be focused on, all of these become kind of the primary things that we measure from point of view, and how do we align teams and projects and funding along these kinds of outcomes? >> So being customer focused, also being more broadly focused you mentioned the Chief Digital Officer role, which has an interesting role. It's supposed to look more, holistically, internally and externally. And we know that these organizations know we need to be better at this. like Dave's joke about we know we need to be more fit. But what's it going to take to actually create that collaboration, so that IT and business leaders are really working in lockstep and doing so in a timely fashion, so, that they're able to stay competitive. I do want to know from each of you, are you seeing examples of this already in progress? Pierre, let's start with you. >> I can only give you another example and say, one of the interesting things that we did was we try to embrace the delivery of services at HR in kind of a different frame this year, and kind of productize the services that we deliver. Now, if you're most people, you're trying to think about, "How do I set up things like communities "of practice and collaboration between people so "that they can work together on developing new services "new features, new products, et cetera." And we set out with creating this agile way of working. What we didn't anticipate, which was a very nice side effect, is that, because of COVID, because of the catalyst that it provided us, the remote working, people sense of ownership is inherently there. Meaning that self-organization of teams started happening. Nobody needed to crack a whip to get a bunch of guys to talk together with one another to figure out how to get stuff done. It's not like you could walk over to the water cooler and have a chat to Bob. Bob is a thousand miles away, or Bobby's sitting in another State. So, all of a sudden, all dynamic changed. And I have to say, people are a lot more resilient than what they're being given credit for. And if, as organizations, we embrace the culture in such a way and harness it in a positive way, we can actually get this movement to happen. And we actually can make the sum of the parts to be more than the whole. And this year we've seen that happen. And by no means, are we done 'cause we still have a lot of work to do, like Serge said, we have budgets, and budgets give you finite amount of movement left or right. Then you have to do what's best and possible within the frame that you're given. But I think embracing the cultural change and helping people to really excel at that and empowering them makes a huge difference in the way that you can get stuff done. >> Absolutely. Dave, what are your thoughts on this? >> I'm going to say something a little bit controversial, I think. I'm not a big fan of Chief Digital Officers. It just seems like we've got a problem. And some would argue that, "Well, if you've got a problem with somebody "you should get a coach" and all this stuff "and you get it sorted." And that's probably a good thing. But most digital officers, they're going to build a long-term career and create yet another stove pipe and that stove pipe's responsible for bringing all the other stove pipes together. It sounds a bit odd. If a digital officer is really there as a short term enabler, 'cause you asked IT and business leaders, trying to get them to work together better. The best business leaders (bell dings) know about IT, right? The best business leaders are IT sanctuary. Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos are great business leaders, but they know about technology, right? That's what brings them together. Technology is an asset and they may not be the most biggest expert in it, but they care deeply about learning about that stuff. So, I think the next few years we're going to see a lot of C-level and leaders in organizations become a lot more tech savvy, and maybe hire coaches to help them navigate. And the Chief Digital Officer will become more of a coach rather than a person that rolls out Slack or something, you know? (Pierre laughs) So, I think that is going to be the next big jump, really, when we realize that you don't get an additional thing. It's just part of what you do. >> Serge, agree, disagree? >> I agree. The reality is that it is happening, right? Don't get me wrong. We see that every day that so many States are highly integrated, organizations and teams are measuring business value, business outcomes. The problem is that it's oftentimes a very small subset of what these organizations are doing. And so, it's almost like the CEO is coming as kind of these new kind of, as Dave described. And it's got this new style organization which is really there to kind of scale what has been working with these organizations, but we're kind of creating this kind of almost shadow organization, as opposed to fundamentally rethinking and redesigning the organization and redesigning kind of the operating model. And so, we're kind of layering new stuff as opposed to fundamentally transforming. So, as long as it is just kind of just a step towards kind of a true transformation, I think that's fine. The challenge is to, again, create kind of a new set of silos, which are now called value streams, as opposed to young functional silos that we have today. >> So a lot of opportunities identified in this survey but there are still a lot of challenges there. So, I'd love to get you guys and our final question here in this panel to help us understand, from the BizOps coalition's perspective, how are you helping organizations to navigate these challenges, so, they can become successful, transform and actually become agile to respond to rapidly changing market conditions? Pierre, kick us off. >> Sure, from a coalition perspective, we're just trying to make sure that there's a set of sensible principles. That people can look at, can adopt that I think Dave mentioned it in another discussion, that give you that clarity of thought and mind in terms of what should you be thinking? How should you be thinking about it? What are the various aspects you need to consider? And then from that perspective, how do you implement these things in a sensible way for your organization? By no means is this this like, "Here are the 10 steps, you do them, and you're done." You'll be rich beyond your wildest dreams. It's not how it work. You're still going to have to work at it. You're still going to have to figure some stuff out. You're going to have to deep in yourself in your organizational policies, procedures, understand how the organization is actually working. You can't strap a V8 to Mini Cooper and expect to break the land speed record, without the wheels falling off, or something going wrong. So, you really need to harness that in a more sensible manner to move forward. And I think the coalition is on the right path to help organizations realize, "what is the sensible way to go?" "What are principles we can adopt "that we can abide by that will help us drive business "in a different way and close this chasm of disparity "between business and IT?" >> And Dave, your perspective on the BizOps coalition, helping organizations to sort through these challenges. >> Yeah. I'm going to share a little bit of a personal story. So, I must admit that I wasn't keen on the whole idea, and Serge sent me some stuff and he's like, "Could you just provide some feedback." And I did, and then there was a press release with my name on it. I saw, I was like, "Oh my God! "I better get involved because I don't want to "have my name associated "with something that doesn't make sense" But I've actually been surprisingly, I've actually found it a lot more positive than I thought because of exactly what Pierre's saying. So, basically, the coalition is a group of vendors, a bucolic of consultants, some pseudo thought leaders that think they are very thoughtful and maybe they're not, people like me. (Pierre laughs) And what we're doing though, is actually trying to get some clarity of terminology, get some clarity of, what are the principles? What are those key principles? How do they relate to each other? Get some, some synergy to allow, 'cause there's so much noise out there. And hopefully, this is going to say, "Okay, this is what BizOps is. "This is why it's important. "These are some simple things." And then hopefully, because of the breadth that Serge and others have managed to get in terms of membership, we're going to get all of those organizations to be consistently talking about these things, which will then create pressure on the market to actually start adopting these things in the way that we're proposing, or challenge those ideas and then make them better. So, I'm kind of excited about it, surprisingly, 'cause the last thing we need is yet another manifesto and group of people that spend their whole time talking about things and never getting anything done. But actually I think there might be some valuable stuff that comes out here and we're going to inspect and adapt to make sure it is valuable. And if it isn't, we will stop. (chuckles) (Lisa laughs) >> And Serge, strap us up with your thoughts and extending that value. >> Look, we started the BizOps manifesto really with kind of a very simple observation. Everybody's talking about the same stuff, right? But you have a value stream management church, the digital product management's church, the DevOps church, with Scrum church, the safe church. Right? But we're all saying the same thing. But we create so much confusion with our large enterprise customers, but it's just not a grain on a set of principles. And just saying like, look, fundamentally, we're all talking about the same thing. And there are process aspects, there are cultural aspects. There is what you measure. But fundamentally we agree on the same core set of principles. And so for me, the BizOps manifesto, first and foremost is to get the stakeholders from these different communities together, and recognize that, at the end of the day, we share the same values and create some clarity to the market as to how these pieces fit to one another. The second aspect, which is more from our point of view, as one of the vendors of tools, right? There's tons of tools out there. We talk a lot about kind of measuring business outcomes as a primary way to actually align to everybody in our organization. Well, today if you look at any of these organizations, on average, they use about 40 different tools on one of these value streams. None of that stuff integrates with one another. It's extremely difficult for an organization to be able to trace from an investment, all the way to stuff that delivers value and production to a customer. And so, one of my hopes for the coalition is that we start to actually provide some platform, data models, ontologies, to start to integrate those different tools to facilitate that kind of integration. So, those are kind of the two things which I think we can really help kind of develop and and improve on. >> Well, we know that there's a tremendous amount of folks out there that are wanting to embrace agility across the business, identifying areas where they need to do work. So, great advice from the three of you. Thank you so much for joining me on this power panel today and sharing what organizations can do to really embrace that agility across the organization. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Pierre Viljoen, Dave West and Serge Lucio. I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this BizOps Manifesto Power Panel, Data Lake or Data Landfill. We're going to be talking about that today. I've got three guests joining me. We're going to dive through that. Kieran Taylor is here the CMO of Broadcom's Enterprise Software Division. Kieran, great to have you on the program. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Kevin Surace is here as well. Chairman and CTO of Appvance, hey Kevin. >> Hey Lisa. >> And Isaac Sacolick Author and CEO of StarCIO. Isaac, welcome. >> Hi Lisa, thanks for having me. >> So we're going to spend the next 25 to 30 minutes talking about the challenges and the opportunities that data brings to organizations. You guys are going to share some of your best practices for how organizations can actually sort through all this data to make data-driven decisions. We're also going to be citing some statistics from the Inaugural BizOps Industry Survey of the State of Digital Business in which 519 business and technology folks were surveyed across five nations. Let's go ahead and jump right in and the first one in that server that I just mentioned 97% of organizations say we've got data related challenges, limiting the amount of information that we actually have available to the business. Big conundrum there. How do organizations get out of that conundrum? Kieran, we're going to start with you. >> Thanks Lisa. You know, I think, I don't know if it's so much limiting information as it is limiting answers. There's no real shortage of data I don't think being captured, recently met with a unnamed auto manufacturer Who's collecting petabytes of data from their connected cars and they're doing that because they don't really yet know what questions they have of the data. So I think you get out of this Data Landfill conundrum by first understanding what questions to ask. It's not algorithms, it's not analytics. It's not, you know, math that's going to solve this problem. It's really, really understanding your customer's issues and what questions to ask of the data >> Understanding what questions to ask of the data. Kevin, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, look, I think it gets down to what questions you want to ask and what you want out of it, right? So there's questions you want to ask but what are the business outcomes you're looking for, which is the core of BizOps anyway, right? What are the business outcomes and what business outcomes can I act upon? So there are so many business outcomes you can get from data and you go, well, I can't legally act upon that. I can't practically act upon that. I can't, whether it's lay off people or hire people or whatever it is, right? So what are the actionable items? There is plenty of data. We would argue too much data. Now we could say, is the data good? Is the data bad? Is it poorly organized? Is it, noisy? There's all other problems, right? There's plenty of data. What do I do with it? What can I do that's actionable? If I was an automaker and I had lots of sensors on the road, I had petabytes, as Kieran says and I'd probably bringing in petabytes potentially every day. Well, I could make myself driving systems better. That's an obvious place to start or that's what I would do but I could also potentially use that to change people's insurance and say, if you drive in a certain way something we've never been able to do. If you drive in a certain way, based on the sensors you get a lower insurance rate, then nobody's done that. But now there's interesting business opportunities for that data that you didn't have one minute ago and I just gave away. So, (laughs) it's all about the actionable items in the data. How do you drive something to the top line and the bottom line? 'Cause in the end, that's how we're all measured. >> And Isaac, I know you say data is the lifeblood. What are your thoughts on this conundrum? >> Well, I think, you know, they gave you the start and the end of the equation, start with a question. What are you really trying to answer? What you don't understand that you want to learn about your business connect it to an outcome that is valuable to you. And really what most organizations struggle with is a process that goes through discovery, learning what's in the data, addressing data, quality issues, loading new data sources if required and really doing that iteratively and we're all agile people here at BizOps, right? So doing it iteratively, getting some answers out and understanding what the issues are with the underlying data and then going back and revisiting and reprioritizing what you want to do next. Do you want to go look at another question? Is the answer heading down a path that you can drive outcomes? Do you got to go cleanse some data? So it's really that, how do you put it together so that you can peel the onion back and start looking at data and getting insights out of it. >> Great advice, another challenge though, that the survey identified was that nearly 70% of the respondents and again, 519 business and technology professionals from five countries said, we are struggling to create business metrics from our data with so much data, so much that we can't access. Can you guys share best practices for how organizations would sort through and identify the best data sources from which they can identify the ideal business metrics? Kieran, take it away. >> Sure thing, I guess I'll build on Isaac's statements. Every company has some gap in data, right? And so when you do that, that data gap analysis I think you really, I don't know. It's like Alice in Wonderland, begin at the beginning, right? You start with that question like Isaac said, And I think the best questions are really born from an understanding of what your customers value. And if you dig into that, you understand what the customers value, you build it off of actual customer feedback, market research then you know what questions to ask and then from that, hey, what inputs do I need to really understand how to solve that particular business issue or problem. >> Kevin, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, I'm going to add to that, completely agree but, look, let's start with sales data, right? So sales data is something, everybody watching this understands, even if they're not in sales, they go well, okay, I understand sales data. What's interesting there is we know who our customers are. We could probably figure out if we have enough data, why they buy, are they buying because of a certain sales person? Are they buying because it's a certain region? Are they buying because of some demographic that we don't understand, but AI can pull out, right? So I would like to know, who's buying and why they're buying. Because if I know that I might make more of what more of those people want whatever that is, certain fundamental sales changes or product changes or whatever it is. So if you could certainly start there, if you start nowhere else, say I sell X today. I'd like to sell X times 1.2 by next year. Okay, great. Can I learn from the last five years of sales, millions of units or million or whatever it is, how to do that better and the answer is for sure yes and yes there's problems with the data and there's holes in the data as Kieran said and there's missing data. It doesn't matter, there's a lot of data around sales. So you can just start there and probably drive some top line growth, just doing what you're already doing but doing it better and learning how to do it better. >> Learning how to do it better. Isaac, talk to us about what your thoughts are here with respect to this challenge. >> Well, when you look at that percentage 70% struggling with business metrics, you know what I see is some companies struggling when they have too few metrics and you know, their KPIs, it really doesn't translate well to people doing work for a customer for an application, responding to an issue. So when you have too few in there too disconnected from the work, people don't understand how to use them and then on the flip side I see other organizations trying to create metrics around every single part of the operation, you know, dozens of different ways of measuring user experience and so forth. And that doesn't work because now we don't know what to prioritize. So I think the art of this is management coming back and saying, what are the metrics? Do we want to see impact and changes over in a short amount of time, over the next quarter, over the next six months and to pick a couple in each category, certainly starting with the customer, certainly looking at sales but then also looking at operations and looking at quality and looking at risk and say to the organization, these are the two or three we're going to focus on in the next six months and then I think that's what simplifies it for organizations. >> Thanks, Isaac. So something that I found interesting, it's not surprising in that the survey found that too much data is one of the biggest challenges that organizations have followed by the limitations that we just talked about in terms of identifying what are the ideal business metrics, but a whopping 74% of survey respondents said we failed to have key data available in real time, which is a big inhibitor for data-driven decision-making. Can you guys offer some advice to organizations? How can they harness this data and glean insights from it faster, Kieran, take it away. >> Yeah, I think there are probably five steps to establishing business KPIs and Lisa your first two questions and these gentleman's answers laid out the first two that is define the questions that you want answers for and then identify what those data inputs would be. You know, if you've got a formula in mind, what data inputs do do you need? The remaining three steps. One is, you know, to evaluate the data you've got and then identify what's missing, you know what do you need to then fetch? And then that fetching, you need to think about the measurement method, the frequency I think Isaac mentioned, you know this concept of tools for all. We have too many tools to collect data. So, the measurement method and frequency is important standardizing on tools and automating that collection wherever possible. And then the last step, this is really the people component of the formula. You need to identify stakeholders that will own those business KPIs and even communicate them within the organization. That human element is sometimes forgotten and it's really important. >> It is important, it's one of the challenges as well. Kevin, talk to us about your thoughts here. >> Yeah, again I mean, for sure you've got in the end you've got the human element. You can give people all kinds of KPIs as Isaac said, often it's too many. You have now KPI the business to death and nobody can get out and do anything that doesn't work. Obviously you can't improve things until you measure them. So you have to measure, we get that. But this question of live data is interesting. My personal view is only certain kinds of data are interesting, absolutely live in the moment. So I think people get in their mind, oh, well if I could deploy IOT everywhere and get instantaneous access within one second to the amalgam of that data, I'm making up words too. That would be interesting. Are you sure that'd be interesting? I might rather analyze the last week of real, real data, really deep analysis, right? Build you know, a real model around that and say, okay for the next week, you ought to do the following. Now I get that if you're in the high-frequency stock trading business you know, every millisecond counts, okay? But most of our businesses do not run by the millisecond and we're not going to make a business decision especially humans involved in a millisecond anyway. We make business decisions based on a fair bit of data, days and weeks. So this is just my own personal opinion. I think people get hung up on this. I've got to have all this live data. No, you want great data analysis using AI and machine learning to evaluate as much data as you can get over whatever period of time that is a week, a month a year and start making some rational decisions off of that information. I think that is how you run a business that's going to crush your competition. >> Good advice, Isaac what are your thoughts on these comments? >> Yeah, I'm going to pair off of Kevin's comments. You know, how do you chip away at this problem at getting more real time data? And I'll share two insights first, from the top down, you know, when StarCIO works with a group of CEO and their executive group, you know how are they getting their data? Well, they're getting it in a boardroom with PowerPoints with spreadsheets behind those PowerPoints, with analysts doing a lot of number crunching and behind all that are all the systems of record around the CRM and the ERP and all the other systems that are telling them how they're performing. And I suggest to them for a month, leave the world of PowerPoint and Excel and bring your analysts in to show you the data live in the systems, ask questions and see what it's like to work with real time data. That first changes the perspective in terms of all the manual work that goes into homogenizing that data for them. But then they start getting used to looking at the tools where the data is actually living. So that's an exercise from the top down from the bottom up when we talk to the it groups, you know so much of our data technologies were built at a time when batch processing in our data centers was the only way to go. We ran these things overnight to move data from point a to point B and with the Cloud, with data streaming technologies it's really a new game in town. And so it's really time for many organizations to modernize and thinking about how they're streaming data. Doesn't necessarily have to be real time. It's not really IOT but it's really saying, I need to have my data updated on a regular basis with an SLA against it so that my teams and my businesses can make good decisions around things. >> So let's talk now about digital transformation. We've been talking about that for years. We talked a lot about in 2020, the acceleration of digital transformation for obvious reasons. But when organizations are facing this data conundrum that we talked about, this sort of data disconnect too much can't get what we need right away. Do we need it right away? How did they flip the script on that so that it doesn't become an impediment to digital transformation but it becomes an accelerant. Kieran >> You know, a lot of times you'll hear vendors talk about technology as being the answer, right? So MI, ML, my math is better than your math, et cetera. And technology is important but it's only effective to the point that which people can actually interpret understand and use the data. And so I would put forth this notion of having data at all levels throughout an organization too often. What you'll see is that I think Isaac mentioned it, you know the data is delivered to the C-suite via PowerPoint and it's been sanitized and scrubbed, et cetera. But heck, by the time it gets to the C-suite it's three weeks old. Data at all levels is making sure that throughout organization, the right people have real-time access to data and can make actionable decisions based upon that. So I think that's a real vital ingredient to successful digital transformation. >> Kevin. >> Well, I like to think of digital transformation as looking at all of your relatively manual or paper-based or other processes whatever they are throughout the organization and saying is this something that can now be done for lack of a better word by a machine, right? And that machine could be algorithms. It could be computers, it could be humans it could be Cloud, it could be AI it could be IOT doesn't really matter. (clears throat) And so there's a reason to do that and of course, the basis of that is the data. You've got to collect data to say, this is how we've been performing. This is what we've been doing. So an example, a simple example of digitalization is people doing RPA around customer support. Now you collect a lot of data on how customer support has been supporting customers. You break that into tiers and you say, here's the easiest, lowest tier. I had farmed that out to probably some other country 20 years ago or 10 years ago. Can I even with the systems in place, can I automate that with a set of processes, Robotic Process Automation that digitizes that process now, Now there still might be, you know 20 different screens that click on all different kinds of things, whatever it is, but can I do that? Can I do it with some Chatbots? Can I do it with it? No, I'm not going to do all the customer support that way but I could probably do a fair bit. Can I digitize that process? Can I digitize the process? Great example we all know is insurance companies taking claims. Okay, I have a phone. Can, I take a picture of my car that just got smashed send it in, let AI analyze it and frankly, do an ACH transfer within the hour, because if it costs them insurance company on average 300 to $500 depending on who they are to process a claim, it's cheaper to just send me the $500 then even question it. And if I did it two or three times, well then I'm trying to steal their money and I should go to jail, right? So these are just, I'm giving these as examples 'cause they're examples that everyone who is watching this would go, oh I understand you're digitizing a process. So now when we get to much more complex processes that we're digitizing in data or hiring or whatever, those are a little harder to understand but I just tried to give those as like everyone understands yes, you should digitize those. Those are obvious, right? >> Now those are great examples, you're right. They're relatable across the board here. Isaac, talk to me about what your thoughts are about. Okay, let's do the conundrum. How do we flip the script and leverage data, access to it insights to drive and facilitate digital transformation rather than impede it. >> Well remember, you know, digital transformation is really about changing the business model, changing how you're working with customers and what markets you're going after. You're being forced to do that because of the pace digital technologies are enabling competitors to outpace you. And so we really like starting digital transformations with a vision. What does this business need to do better, differently more of what markets are we going to go after? What types of technologies are important? And we're going to create that vision but we know long-term planning, doesn't work. We know multi-year planning, doesn't work. So we're going to send our teams out on an agile journey over the next sprint, over the next quarter and we're going to use data to give us information about whether we're heading in the right direction. Should we do more of something? Is this feature higher priority? Is there a certain customer segment that we need to pay attention to more? Is there a set of defects happening in our technology that we have to address? Is there a new competitor stealing market share all that kind of data is what the organization needs to be looking at on a very regular basis to say, do we need to pivot, what we're doing? Do we need to accelerate something? Are we heading in the right direction? Should we give ourselves high fives and celebrate a quick win? Because we've accomplished something 'cause so much of transformation is what we're doing today. We're going to change what we're doing over the next three years, and then guess what? There's going to be a new set of technologies. There's going to be another disruption that we can't anticipate and we want our teams sitting on their toes waiting to look at data and saying, what should we do next? >> That's a great segue Isaac into our last question, which is around culture that's always one of those elephants in the room, right? Because so much cultural transformation is necessary but it's incredibly difficult. So question for you guys, Kieran we'll start with you is, should you advise leadership, should really create a culture, a company-wide culture around data? What do you think? >> Absolutely. I mean, this reminds me of DevOps in many ways and you know, the data has to be shared at all levels and has to empower people to make decisions at their respective levels so that we're not, you know kind of siloed in our knowledge or our decision-making, it's through that collective intelligence that I think organizations can move forward more quickly but they do have to change the culture and they've got to have everyone in the room. Everyone's got a stake in driving business success from the C-suite down to the individual contributor >> Right, Kevin, your thoughts >> You know what? Kieran's right. Data silos, one of the biggest brick walls in all of our way, all the time, you know SecOps says there is no way I'm going to share that database because it's got PII. Okay, well, how about if we strip the PII? Well, then that won't be good for something else and you're getting these huge arguments and if you're not driving it from the top, certainly the CIO, maybe the CFO, maybe the CEO I would argue the CEO, drives it from the top. 'Cause the CEO drives company culture and you know, we talk BizOps and the first word of that is Biz. It's the business, right? It's Ops being driven by business goals and the CEO has to set the business goals. It's not really up to the CIO to set business goals. They're setting operational goals, it's up to the CEO. So when the CEO comes out and says our business goals are to drive up sales by this drive down cost by this drive up speed of product development, whatever it is and we're going to digitize all of our processes to do that. We're going to set in KPIs. We're going to measure everything that we do and everybody's going to work around this table. By the way just like we did with DevOps a decade ago, right? And said, Dev, you actually have to work with Ops now and they go, those dangerous guys way over in that other building, we don't even know who they are but in time people realize that we're all on the same team and that if developers develop something that operations can't host and support and keep alive, it's junk right? And we used to do that and now we're much better at it. And whether it's Dev, SecOps or Dev two-way Ops, whatever all those teams working together. Now we're going to spread that out and make it a bigger pyre on the company and it starts with the CEO. And when the CEO makes it a directive for the company I think we're all going to be successful. >> Isaac, what are your thoughts? >> I think we're really talking about a culture of transformation and a culture of collaboration. I mean, again, everything that we're doing now we're going to build, we're going to learn. We're going to use data to pivot what we're doing. We're going to release a product to customers. We're going to get feedback. We're going to continue to iterate over those things. Same thing when it comes to sales, same things that you know, the experiments that we do for marketing, what we're doing today, we're constantly learning. We're constantly challenging our assumptions. We're trying to throw out the sacred cows with status quo, 'cause we know there's going to be another Island that we have to go after and that's the transformation part. The collaboration part is really you know, what you're hearing. Multiple teams, not just Dev and Ops and not just data and Dev, but really the spectrum of business of product, of stakeholders, of marketing and sales, working with technologists and saying, look this is the things that we need to go after over these time periods and work collaboratively and iteratively around them. And again, the data is the foundation for this, right? And we talk about a learning culture as part of that, the data is a big part of that learning, learning new skills and what new skills to learn is as part of that. But when I think about culture, you know the things that slow down organizations is when they're not transforming fast enough, or they're going in five or six different directions, they're not collaborative enough and the data is the element in there that is an equalizer. It's what you show everybody to say, look what we're doing today is not going to make us survive over the next three years. >> The data equalizer, that sounds like it could be movie coming out in 2021. (laughing) Gentlemen, thank you for walking us through some of those interesting metrics coming out of the BizOps Inaugural Survey. Yes, there are challenges with data. Many of them aren't surprising but there's also a lot of tremendous opportunity and I liked how you kind of brought it around to from a cultural perspective. It's got to start from that C-suite to Kieran's point all the way down. I know we could keep talking, we're out of time, but we'll have to keep following, this as a very interesting topic. One that is certainly pervasive across industries. Thanks guys for sharing your insights. >> Than you. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> Thank you, Lisa. >> For Kieran Taylor, Kevin Surace and Isaac Sacolick. I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> From around the globe it's the CUBE with digital coverage of Devops Virtual Forum, brought to you by Broadcom. >> Continuing our conversations here at Broadcom's DevOps Virtual Forum. Lisa Martin here, please do welcome back to the program. Serge Lucio, the general manager of the Enterprise Software Division at Broadcom. Hey Serge welcome. >> Thank you. Good to be here. >> So I know you were just participating with the BizOps manifesto that just happened recently. I just had the chance to talk with Jeffrey Hammond and he unlocked this really interesting concept but I wanted to get your thoughts on, spiritual co-location as really a necessity for BizOps to succeed in this unusual time in which we're living. What are your thoughts on spiritual co-location in terms of cultural change versus adoption of technologies? >> Yeah, it's quite interesting, right. When we think about the major impediments for DevOps implementation, that means all about culture, right? And swore over the last 20 years we've been talking about silos. We'd be talking about the paradox for these teams too when it goes to align. And in many ways it's not so much about these teams aligning but about being in the same car, in the same books, right? It's really about fusing those teams around kind of the common purpose, a common objective. So to me this is really about kind of changing this culture where people start to look at kind of OKRs instead of the key objective that drives the entire team. Now, what it means in practice is really that's we need to change a lot of behaviors, right? It's not about the ER key, it's not about roles. It's about, you know, who can do what and when, and, you know, driving a bias towards action. It's also means that we need, I mean, especially in this COVID times it becomes very difficult, right? To drive kind of a kind of collaboration and affinity between these teams. And so I think there's a significant role that especially tools can play in terms of providing this conference feedback from teams to be in that preface spiritual qualification. >> Well, and it talked about culture being it's something that, you know, we're so used to talking about DevOps with respect to velocity, all about speed here. But of course this time everything changed so quickly but going from the physical spaces to everybody being remote really does take. It's very different than you can't replicate it digitally but there are collaboration tools that can kind of really be essential to help that cultural shift, right? >> Yeah, so to me we tend to talk about collaboration in a very mundane way, right? Of course we can use zoom. We can all get into the same room. But the point when I think when Jeff says spiritual co-location, it's really about, we all share the same objective. Do we have a means for instance, our pipeline, right? When you talk about DevOps probably we all started thinking about this continuous delivery pipeline that basically drives the automation, the orchestration across the team. But just thinking about a pipeline, right? At the end of the day, it's all about what is the meantime to feed back to these teams. If I'm a developer and I commit code, how long does it take for, you know, that code to be processed through pipeline or quick and I get feedback? If I am a finance person, who's funding a product or a project, what is my meantime to beat back? And so a lot of, kind of a, when we think about the pipeline, I think what's been really inspiring to me in the last year or so is that there is much more of an adoption of that door effect metrics. There is way more of a focus around value stream management. And to me, this is really when we talk about collaboration it's really a balance. How do you provide that feedback to the different stakeholders across the life cycle in a very timely matter? And that's what we would need to get to in terms of kind of this notion of collaboration. It's not so much about people being in the same physical space. It's about, you know, when checking code, you know, to do I guess the system to automatically identify what I'm going to break. If I'm about to release some allocation, how can the system help me reduce my change builder rate? Because it's able to predict that some issue was introduced in the application or the product. So I think there's a great role of technology and AI candidates to actually provide kind of that new level of collaboration. >> So we'll get to AI in a second but I'm curious, what are some of the metrics you think that really matter right now is organizations are still in some form probably of transformation to this new almost 100% remote workforce. >> So I'll just say first I'm not a big fan of metrics. And the reason being that, you know, you can look at a change failure rate, right, or a leak time or cycle time. And those are interesting metrics, right? The trend on metric is absolutely critical. But what's more important these I'll do get to the root cause. What is taught to you lead to that metric to degrade or improve over time. And so I'm much more interested and we, you know, fruit for Broadcom. Are we more interested in understanding what are the patterns that contribute to this? So I'll use a very mundane example. You know, we know that cycle time is heavily influenced by organizational boundaries. So, you know, we talk a lot about silos, but we we've worked with many of our customers doing value stream mapping. And oftentimes what you see is that really the boundaries of your organization creates a lot of idle time, right? So to me, it's less about the metrics. I think the door metrics are pretty, you know, valid set metrics but what's way more important is to understand, what are the anti parents? What are the things that we can detect through the data that actually are affecting those metrics? And I mean, over the last 10, 20 years, we've learned a lot about kind of what are the anti parents within our large enterprise customers? And there are plenty of them. >> What are some of the things that you're seeing now with respect to patterns that have developed over the last seven to eight months? >> So I think the two areas which clearly are evolving very quickly are on kind of the front end of the life cycle where DevOps is more and more embracing value stream management, value stream mapping. And I think what's interesting is that in many ways, the product is becoming the new silo. The notion of a product is very difficult by itself to actually define. People are starting to recognize that a value stream is not its own little kind of island. That in reality, when I did find a product this product, oftentimes as dependencies on our products and that in fact, you're looking at kind of a network of value streams, if you will. So on that and there is clearly kind of a new sets if you will of anti-patterns where, you know, products are being defined as a set of OTRs. They have interdependencies and you have to have a new set of silos. On the other hand the other kind of key movement to ease around the SRE space, where I think there is a cultural clash. While the DevOps side is very much embracing this notion of OTRs and value stream mapping and value management. On the other end, you have IT operations teams. We still think business services, right? For them they think about configure items, think about infrastructure. And so, you know, it's not uncommon to see, you know, teams where, you know, the operations team is still thinking about hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands of business services. And so there is this boundary where I think, well, SRE has been put in place, and there's lots of thinking about what kind of metrics can be defined. I think, you know, going back to culture, I think there's a lot of cultural evolution that's still required for, you know, true operations teams. >> And that's a hard thing. Cultural transformation in any industry pandemic or not is a challenging thing. You now talked about AI and automation of minutes ago. How do you think those technologies can be leveraged by DevOps leaders to influence their successes and their ability to collaborate and maybe see eye to eye with the SREs? >> Yeah, so there're kind of too, so even for myself, right? As a leader of , you know, 1500 people organization, there's a number of things I don't see, right, on a daily basis. And I think the technologies that we have at our disposal today from the AI are able to mine a lot of data and expose a lot of issues that as leaders we may not be aware of. And some of these are pretty kind of easy to understand, right? We all think we're agile. And yet when you start to understand, for instance, what is the is a work in progress, right, during the sprint? When you start to analyze the data you can detect for instance, that maybe the teams are over committed, that there is too much work in profits. You can start to identify kind of interprocess either from a technology or from a people point of view, which were hidden. You can start to understand that maybe the change failure rate is dragging. So I believe that there is a fundamental role to be played by the tools to expose again these anti parents. To make these things visible to the teams to be able to even compare teams, right? One of the things that's amazing is now we have access to tons of data not just from a given customer, but across a large number of customers. And so we start to compare all of these teams kind of operate and what's working, what's not working. >> Thoughts on AI and automation as a facilitator of spiritual co-location? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, there's a the problem we all face is the unknown, right? The velocity, the volume, variety of the data, every day we don't really necessarily completely appreciate what is the impact of our actions, right? And so AI can really act as a safety net that enables us to understand what is the impact of our actions. And so, yeah, in many ways, the ability to be informed in a timely matter to be able to interact with people on the basis of data and collaborate on the data in the actual matter, I think is a very powerful enabler on, in that respect. I mean, I've seen countless of times that for instance at the SRE boundary to basically show that we'll turn the quality attributes of an incoming release, right? And exposing that to an operations person, an SRE person and enabling that collaboration dialogue through there is a very, very powerful tool. >> Do you have any recommendations for how teams can use, you know, the SRE folks, the DevOps says can use AI and automation in the right ways to be successful rather than some ways that aren't going to be non-productive. >> Yeah, so to me there's a part that the question really is when we talk about data. There are different ways you can use data, right? So you can do a lot of analytics, predictive analytics. So I think there is a tendency to look at, let's say a specific KPI, like an availability KPI or change failure rate. And to basically do a regression analysis and projecting all these things is going to happen in the future. To me that's a bad approach. The reason why I fundamentally think it's a better approach is because we, our systems the way we develop software is a non-leader kind of system, right? Software development is not linear in nature. And so I think there's a, this is probably the worst approach is to actually focus on metrics. On the other hand if you start to actually understand at a more granular level, what are the things which are contributing to this, right? So if you start to understand, for instance that whenever maybe, you know, you affect a specific part of the application that translates into production issues. So we have, I've actually a customer who identified that over 50% of their unplanned outages were related to specific components in your architecture. And whenever these components were changed this resulted in this implant outages. So if you start to be able to basically establish causality, right? Cause an effect between kind of data across the last cycle. I think this is the right way to use AI. And so pharma to be, I think it's way more about kind of a classification problem. What are the causes of problems that do exist and affect things as opposed to an hourly predictive which I don't think is as powerful? >> So I mentioned in the beginning of our conversation that just came off the BizOps manifesto. You're one of the authors of that. I want to get your thoughts on DevOps and BizOps overlapping, complimenting each other. What, from the BizOps perspective, what does it mean to the future of DevOps? >> Yeah, so it's interesting, right? If you think about DevOps, there's no founding document, right? We can refer to the Phoenix project. I mean, there are a set of documents which have been written, but in many ways there is no clear definition of what DevOps is. If you go to the DevOps Institute today you'll see that, you know, they are specific trainings for instance on value management on SRE. And so in many ways, the problem we have as an industry is that there are set practices between agile, DevOps, SRE, value stream management, Ital, right? And we all basically talk about the same things, right? We all talk about essentially accelerating in the meantime to feedback, but yet we don't have a common framework to talk about that. The other key thing is that we add to wait for genius, Jean Kim's last book to really start to get into the business aspect, right? And for value mapping to start to emerge for us to start as an industry, right? IT to start to think about what is our connection with the business aspect, what's our purpose, right? And ultimately it's all about kind of driving these business outcomes. And so to me, BizOps is really about kind of putting a lens on kind of this critical element that it's not business and IT that we in fact need to fuse business and IT. That I need needs to transform itself to recognize that it's this value generator, right? It's not a cost center. And so the relationship to me, it's more than BizOps provides kind of this over all kind of framework, if you will. That set the context for what is the reason for IT to exist. What are the core values and principles that IT needs to embrace to, again, change from cost center to value center. And then we need to start to use this as a way to start to unify some of, again, the core practices, whether it's agile, DevOps, value stream mapping, SRE. So, I think over time, my hope is that we start to organize a lot of our practices, language and cultural elements. >> Last question Serge in the last few seconds we have here, talking about this, the relation between BizOps and DevOps. What do you think as DevOps evolves? And as you talked to circle some of your insights, what should our audience keep their eyes on in the next six to 12 months? >> So to me the key challenge for the industry is really around. So we were seeing a very rapid shift towards kind of project to product, right? Which we don't want to do is to recreate kind of these new silos, these hard silos. So that's one of the big changes that I think we need to be really careful about. Because it is ultimately, it is about culture. It's not about kind of how we segment the work, right? And any true culture that we can overcome kind of silos. So back to, I guess, with Jeffrey's concept of kind of the spiritual co-location, I think it's really about that too. It's really about kind of focusing on the business outcomes on kind of aligning, on driving engagement across the teams, but not for create kind of a new set of silos which instead of being vertical are going to be these horizontal products. >> Great advice Serge that looking at culture as kind of a way of really addressing and helping to reduce, replace challenges. We thank you so much for sharing your insights and your time at today's DevOps Virtual Forum. >> Thank you. Thanks for your time. Serge Lucio, Lisa Martin, we'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DevOps virtual forum. Brought to you by Broadcom. >> Hi guys, welcome back. So we have discussed the current state and the near future state of DevOps and how it's going to evolve from three unique perspectives. In this last segment, we're going to open up the floor and see if we can come to a shared understanding of where DevOps needs to go. In order to be successful next year. So our guests today are you've seen them all before. Jeffrey Hammond is here the VP and Principal Analyst serving CIO at Forrester. We've also got Serge Lucio, the GM of Broadcom Enterprise Software Division. And Glyn Martin, the head of QA Transformation at BT. Guys welcome back. Great to have you all three together. >> Hi Lisa. (Serge speaks faintly) >> Good to be here. >> All right. So we're all very socially distanced as we talked about before. Great to have this conversation. So let's start with one of the topics that we kicked off the forum with. Jeff, we're going to start with you spiritual colocation. That's a really interesting topic that we've uncovered. But how much of the challenge is truly cultural? And what can we solve through technology? Jeff, we'll start with you, then Serge, then Glyn, Jeff take it away. >> Yeah I think fundamentally, you can have all the technology in the world. And if you don't make the right investments in the cultural practices in your development organization. You still won't be effective. Almost 10 years ago, I wrote a piece. Where I did a bunch of research around what made high performance teams software delivery teams high performance. And one of the things that came out as part of that was that these teams have a high level of autonomy. And that's one of the things that you see coming out of the Agile Manifesto. Let's take that today. Where developers are on their own in their own offices. if you've got teams where the team itself had a high level of autonomy. And they know how to work, they can make decisions. They can move forward. They're not waiting for management to tell them what to do. And so what we have seen is that organizations that embraced autonomy, and got their teams in the right place. And their teams had the information that they needed to make the right decisions. Have actually been able to operate pretty well, even as they've been remote. And it's turned out to be things like well, how do we actually push the software that we've created into production that have become the challenge is not. Are we writing the right software? And that's why I think the term spiritual colocation is so important. Because even though we may be physically distant, we're on the same plane, we're connected from a shared purpose. There's a Surgeon I worked together a long, long time ago, so just it's been what, almost 15-16 years, since we worked at the same place. And yet I would say there's probably still a certain level of spiritual colocation, between us. because of this shared purposes that we've had in the past and what we've seen in the industry, and that's a really powerful tool to build on. So what do tools play as part of that, to the extent that tools make information available to build shared purpose on. To the extent that they enable communication so that we can build that spiritual colocation. To the extent that they reinforce the culture that we want to put in place. They can be incredibly valuable, especially when we don't have the luxury of physical colocation. Hope that makes sense.(chuckles) >> It does. I should have introduced this last segment as we're all spiritually colocated. All right. So Serge, clearly you're still spiritually colocated with Jeff. Talk to me about what your thoughts are about spiritual of colocation. The cultural impact and how technology can move it forward? >> Yes, so I think, while I'm going to sound very similar to Jeff in that respect. I think it starts with kind of shared purpose, and understanding how individuals teams contribute to kind of a business outcome. What is our shared goals our shared vision with what is it we're trying to achieve collectively. And keeping kind of the line to that. And so it really starts with it Now, the big challenge always is over the last 20 years, especially in large organization has been specialization of roles and functions. And so we all have started to basically measure which we do on a daily basis using metrics, which oftentimes are completely disconnected from kind of a business outcome. Or is it on purpose. We kind of revert that to Okay, what is my database uptime? What is my cycle time? Right. And I think which we can do or where we really should be focused as an industry is to start to basically provide a lens for these different stakeholders to look at what they're doing. In the context of benefiting this business outcomes. So, probably one of my theories experience was to actually witness at one of our large financial institution. Two stakeholders across development and operations staring at the same data. Like which was related to economy changes, test execution results, coverage, official liabilities, and all the overran direction of incidents. And when you start to put these things in context, and represent that in a way that these different stakeholders can look at from their different lens. And they can start to basically communicate, and understand how they jointly or complement to do that kind of common vision or objective. >> And Glyn, we talked a lot about transformation with you last time. What are your thoughts on spiritual colocation and the cultural part of technology impact? >> Yeah, I mean I agree with Jeffrey that, you know, the people and culture are the most important thing. Actually, that's why it's really important when you're transforming to have partners who have the same vision as you. Who you can work with have the same end goal in mind. And we would constantly found that with our continuing relationship with Broadcom. What it also does, are those tools can accelerate what you're doing and can drive consistency. You know, we've seen within simplify, which is BT's Flagship Transformation Program, where we're trying to as it says, simplify the number of system stacks that we have. The number of products that we have, actually at the moment we've got different value streams within that program. Who have got organizational silos who are trying to rewrite the wheel. Who are still doing things manually. So in order to try and bring that consistency, we need the right tools that actually are at an enterprise grade, which can be flexible to work with in BT. Which is such a complex and very different environment, depending on what area BT you're in. Whether it's consumer, whether it's a mobile area, whether it's large global or government organizations. We found that we need tools that can drive that consistency. But also flex to Greenfield Brownfield kind of technologies as well. So it's really important that as it's a from a number of different aspects. That you have the right partner, and to drive the right culture here, and the same vision, but also who have the tool sets to help you accelerate, They can't do that on their own. But they can help accelerate what it is you're trying to do. And a really good example of that is we're trying to shift left, which is probably a quite a bit of a buzz phrase. And they're kind of testing well at the moment. But I could talk about things like Continuous Delivery Director to Broadcom tools. And it has many different features to it, but very simply on its own. It allows us to give the visibility of what the teams are doing. And once we have that visibility, then we can talk to the teams around could they be doing better component testing? Could they be using some virtualized services here or there? And that's not even the main purpose of Continuous Delivery Director. But it's just a reason that tools themselves can just give greater visibility of have much more intuitive and insightful conversations with other teams and reduce those organizational silos. >> Thanks, Glyn So we kind of sum that up autonomy, collaboration tools that facilitate that. So let's talk now about metrics. From your perspective, what are the metrics that matter Jeff? >> Well, I'm going to go right back to what Glyn said about data that provides visibility that enables us to to make decisions with shared purpose. And so business value has to be one of the first things that we looking at. How do we assess whether we have built something that is valuable? That could be sales revenue, it could be Net Promoter Score, if you're not selling what you've built, it could even be what the level of reuse is within your organization. Or other teams picking up the services that you've created. One of the things that I've begun to see organizations do is to align value streams with customer journeys. And then to align teams with those value streams. So that's one of the ways that you get to a shared purpose. 'Cause we're all trying to deliver around that customer journey. The value associated with it. And we're all measured on that. There are flow metrics, which are really important. How long does it take us to get a new feature out. From the time that we conceive it to the time that we can run our first experiments with it. There are quality metrics, some of the classics or maybe things like defect density or meantime to response. One of my favorites came from a company called Ultimate Software. Where they looked at the ratio of defects found in Production defects found in pre production. And their developers were in fact measured on that ratio and told them that guess what quality is your job too. Not just the test departments group. The fourth level that I think is really important in the current situation that we're in, is the level of engagement in your development organization. We used to joke that we measured this with the parking lot metric. How how full was the parking lot at 9, and how full was it at 5 o'clock. I can't do that anymore, since we're not physically colocated. But what you can do is you can look at how folks are delivering. You can look at your metrics in your SCCM environment, you can look at the relative rates of churn, you can look at things like well are our developers delivering during longer periods. Earlier in the morning, later in the evening? Are they delivering on the weekends as well. Are those signs that we might be heading toward burnout, because folks are still running at sprint levels instead of marathon levels. So all of those in combination, business value, flow, engagement and quality. I think form the backbone of any sort of metrics program. The second thing that I think you need to look at is what are we going to do with the data and the philosophy behind the data is critical. Unfortunately I see organizations where they weaponize the data. And that's completely the wrong way to look at it. What you need to do is you need to say. "How is this data helping us to identify the blockers? The things that aren't allowing us to provide the right context for people to do the right thing? And then what do we do to remove those blockers to make sure that we're giving these autonomous teams, the context that they need to do their job in a way that creates the most value for the customers?" >> Great advice, Jeff. Glyn over to you metrics that matter to you that really make a big impact. And also how do you measure quality kind of following on to the advice that Jeff provided? >> I mean, Jeff provided some great advice. Actually, he talks about value, he talks about flow, both of those things are very much on my mind at the moment. But there was a time, listen to a speaker called Mia Kirsten, a couple of months ago, he talked very much around how important flow management is. And remove and using that to remove waste, to understand in terms of, making software changes. What is it that's causing us to do it longer than we need to? So where are those areas where it takes too long. So I think that's a very important thing. For us, it's even more basic than that at the moment. We're on a journey from moving from waterfall to agile. And the problem with moving from waterfall to agile is, with waterfall, the the business had a kind of comfort that everything was tested together, and therefore it's safer. And with agile, there's that kind of how do we make sure that you know, if we're doing things quick, and we're getting stuff out the door that we give that confidence, that that's ready to go? Or if there's a risk that we're able to truly articulate what that risk is. So there's a bit about release confidence. And some of the metrics around that and how healthy those releases are and actually saying we spend a lot of money, in an investment setting up agile teams training agile teams. Are we actually seeing them deliver more quickly? And are we actually seeing them deliver more value quickly? So yeah, those are the two main things for me at the moment. But I think it's also about, generally bringing it all together DevOps. We've got the kind of value ops, AI Ops. How do we actually bring that together to so we can make quick decisions, and making sure that we are delivering the biggest bang for our partners. >> Absolutely biggest bang for the partners. Serge your thoughts. >> Yes I think we all agree, right? It starts with business metrics, flow metrics. These are one of the most important metrics and ultimately, I mean, one of the things that's very common across I highly functional teams is engagements, right? When you see a team that's highly functional, and that's agile, that practices DevOps everyday. They are highly engaged. That definitely true. Now back to you, I think, Jeff's points on weaponization of metrics. One of the key challenges we see is that organizations traditionally have been kind of, setting up benchmarks. Right. So what is a good cycle time? What is a good mean time? What is a good mean time to repair? The problem is that this is very contextual, right? It's going to vary quite a bit, depending on the nature of application and system. And so one of the things that we really need to evolve as an industry. Is to understand that it's not so much about those flow metrics is about are these flow metrics ultimately contribute to the business metric. To the business outcome. So that's one thing. The second aspect, I think that's oftentimes misunderstood, is that when you have a bad cycle time or what you perceive as being a bad cycle time or bad quality. The problem is oftentimes like, how do you go and explore why, right? What is the root cause of this? And I think one of the key challenges is that we tend to focus a lot of time on metrics. And not on the I type patterns, which are pretty common across the industry. If you look at for instance things like, lead time for instance. It's very common that organizational boundaries are going to be a key contributor to bad lead time. And so I think that there is reviewing the metrics, there is I think a lot of work that we need to do in terms of classifying this untied PaaS. Back to you, Jeff, I think you're one of the cool offers of Water-Scrum Fall as a key pattern in the industry or anti-patterns. >> Yeah >> But Water Scrum Fall, right. Is the key one right? And you will detect that through kind of a defect rival rates. That's right, that looks like an S curve. And so I think it's the output of the metrics is what do you do with those metrics. >> Right. I'll tell you Serge, one of the things that is really interesting to me in that space is. I think those of us had been in industry for a long time, we know the anti patterns, 'cause we've seen them in our career,(laughs) maybe in multiple times. And one of the things that I think you could see tooling do is perhaps provide some notification of anti patterns based on the telemetry that comes in. I think it would be a really interesting place to apply machine learning and reinforcement learning techniques. So hopefully something that we'd see in the future with DevOps tools. 'Cause as a manager that maybe only a 10 year veteran or a 15 year veteran. You may be seeing these anti patterns for the first time, and it would sure be nice to know what to do when they start to pop up.(chuckles) >> That would right? Insight, always helpful. All right guys, I would like to get your final thoughts on the fit one thing that you believe our audience really needs to be on the lookout for. and to put on our agendas. For the next 12 months. Jeff will be back to you. >> I would say, look for the opportunities that this disruption presents. And there are a couple that I see. First of all, as we shift to remote central working, we're unlocking new pools of talent. Where it's possible to implement more geographic diversity. So look to that as part of your strategy. Number two, look for new types of tools. We've seen a lot of interest in usage of low code tools. To very quickly develop applications. That's potentially part of a mainstream strategy as we go into 2021. Finally, make sure that you embrace this idea that you are supporting creative workers. That agile and DevOps are the peanut butter and chocolate to support creative workers with algorithmic capabilities. >> Peanut butter and chocolate. Glyn where do we go from there? What's the one silver bullet that you think that needs to be on the look out for? >> (indistinct) out I certainly agree that low code is next year, we'll see much more low code. We've already started going moving towards more of a SaaS based world but low code also. I think as well for me, we've still got one foot in the kind of cloud camp. We'll be fully trying to explore what that means going into the next year and exploiting the capabilities of cloud. But I think the last thing for me is, how do you really instill quality throughout the kind of the life cycle When I heard the word scrum for it kind of made me shut it. 'Cause I know that's a problem. That's where we're at with some of our things at the moment. So we need to get beyond that we need to be releasing changes more frequently into production. And actually being a bit more brave and having the confidence to actually do more testing in production and going straight to production itself. So expect to see much more of that next year. Yeah, thank you. I haven't got any food analogies unfortunately. (laughs) >> We all need some peanut butter and chocolate. All right Serge, Just take us on that sir. What's that nugget you think everyone needs to have on their agendas? >> That's interesting, right? So a couple of days ago, we had kind of a latest state of the DevOps report, right? And if you read through the report, it's all about velocity, right? It's all about we still are perceiving DevOps as being all about speed. And so to me the key advice is, in order to create kind of this spiritual colocation in order to foster engagement. We have to go back to what is it we're trying to do collectively. We have to go back to tie everything to the business outcome. And so for me, it's absolutely imperative for organizations to start to plot their value streams. To understand how they're delivering value into allowing everything they do from a metrics to delivery to flow to those metrics. And only with data, I think, are we going to be able to actually start to to restart to align kind of all these roles across the organizations and drive not just speed, but business outcomes. >> All about business outcomes. I think you guys, the three of you could write a book together. So I'll give you that as food for thought. Thank you all so much for joining me. Today and our guests, I think this was an incredibly valuable, fruitful conversation. And we appreciate all of you taking the time to spiritually colocate with us today. Guys, thank you. >> Thank you Lisa. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> For Jeff Hammond, Serge Lucio and Glyn Martin. I'm Lisa Martin. Thank you for watching the Broadcom DevOps virtual forum. (upbeat music)

from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello everyone welcome to the space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together i'm john furrier your host with thecube here in california i want to welcome our featured guest lieutenant general john f thompson with the united states space force approach to cyber security that's the topic of this session and of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in los angeles air force base also heading up space force general thank you for coming on really appreciate you kicking this off welcome to the symposium hey so uh thank you very much john for that very kind introduction also uh very much thank you to cal poly uh for this opportunity to speak to this audience today also a special shout out to one of the organizers uh dustin brun for all of his work uh helping uh get us uh to this point uh ladies and gentlemen as uh as uh john mentioned uh i'm jt thompson uh i lead the 6 000 men and women of the united states space forces space and missile system center which is headquartered here at los angeles air force base in el segundo if you're not quite sure where that's at it's about a mile and a half from lax this is our main operating location but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country with about 500 people at kirtland air force base in albuquerque new mexico uh and about another 500 people on the front range of the rockies uh between colorado springs and uh and denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide uh we're responsible for uh acquiring developing and sustaining the united states space force's critical space assets that includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites and we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the u.s space force and a number of our critical mission partners across the uh department of defense and the intelligence community um just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustained the 31 satellite gps constellation that satellite constellation while originally intended to help with global navigation those gps signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy uh over the past three decades i mean gps is everywhere i think everybody realizes that agriculture banking the stock market the airline industry uh separate and distinct navigation systems it's really pervasive across both the capabilities for our department of defense and capabilities for our economy and and individuals billions of individuals across our country and the planet some of the other work we do for instance in the communications sector uh secure communications satellites that we design and build that link america's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real-time support and comms for our deployed forces and those of our allies we also acquire uh infrared missile warning satellites uh that monitor the planet for missile launches and provide advanced warning uh to the u.s homeland and to our allies uh in case some of those missile launches are uh nefarious um on a note that's probably a lot closer to home maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of california in 2018 smc jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy uh to partner with the u.s forest service during the two of the largest wildfires in the state's history the camp and woolsey fires in northern california as those fires spread out of control we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet and we collaborated with the us forest service so that firefighters on the ground uh could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading thereby saving lives and and property by identifying hot spots and flare-ups for firefighters that data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the u.s forest service and authorities here in california was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters it was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread we've continued uh that involvement in recent years using multiple systems to support firefighters across the western u.s this fall as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue working together with the u.s forest service and with other partners uh we like to make uh we like to think that we made a difference here but there's still a lot more work to go and i think that we should always be asking ourselves uh what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to uh stakeholders so that they can use it for for purposes of good if you will how else can we protect our nation how else can we protect our friends and allies um i think a major component of the of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly um just over the past few years uh john and i were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have uh space programs 80 nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet um if you just look at one mission area that uh the department of defense is interested in and that's small launch there are currently over a hundred different small launch companies uh within the u.s industrial base vying for commercial dod and civil uh payload capabilities uh mostly to low earth orbit it's it's just truly a remarkable time if you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning um where we're revolutionary revolutionizing really uh the ways that we generate process and use data i mean it's really remarkable in 2016 so if you think about this four years ago uh nasa estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day and that was four years ago um uh obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience of this congress or in this conference uh we need to work with big thinkers like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data we need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge edge theories of data mining cyber behaviorism and internet of things 2.0 it's just truly a remarkable time uh to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the states of the space business are truly truly daunting and important to uh to all of us um integrating cyber security into our space systems both commercial and government is a mandate um it's no longer just a nice to have as the us space force and department of the air force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years space is becoming congested and contested and that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security uh in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on uh cyber security day in and day out the value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer from the ground control segments associated with it and this value is not just military it's also economic and it's not just american it's also a value for the entire world particularly particularly our allies as we all depend upon space and space systems your neighbors and friends here in california that are employed at the space and missile system center uh work with network defenders we work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers um our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global commons of space free and open for exploration and for commerce um as john and i were talking earlier before we came online there's an aspect of cyber security for space systems especially for some of our legacy systems that's more how do we bolt this on because we fielded those space systems a number of years ago and the the challenges of cyber security in the space domain have grown so we have a part that we have to worry about bolting it on but then we have to worry about building it in as we as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that that realizes that the cyber threat or the cyber security landscape will evolve over time it's not just going to be stagnant there will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we always have to look at look uh as secretary barrett who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning the american way of life really depends on space and as part of the united states space force we work with defense leaders our congress joint and international military teammates and industry to ensure american leadership in space i really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today john and thanks so much to cal poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event i really look forward to this for uh several months and so with that i look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here general thank you very much for the awesome uh introductory statement uh for the folks watching on the stream brigadier general carthan is going to be in the chat answering any questions feel free to chat away he's the vice commander of space and missile systems center he'll be available um a couple comments from your keynote before i get to my questions because it just jumped in my head you mentioned the benefits of say space but the fires in california we're living that here that's really real time that's a benefit you also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space and i only imagine moore's law smaller faster cheaper applies to rockets too so i'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned so you know is it going to be more rules around that i mean this is an interesting question because it's exciting space force but for all the good there is potentially bad out there yeah so i i john i think the uh i think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space what kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps deorbit themselves what kind of basic protections does do all satellites should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space i think those are all fantastic questions and i know that u.s and many uh allied policy makers are looking very very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we uh you know how how we field and field is the military term but you know how we uh populate uh using civil or uh commercial terms uh that space layer at different altitudes uh low earth orbit mid mid-earth orbit geosynchronous earth orbit different kinds of orbits uh what the kind of mission areas we accomplish from space that's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as uh as the place gets a little bit not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out well i'm super excited for space force i know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging changing great space the focus here at this conference is space and cyber security intersection i'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that space force is taking to cyber security and how it impacts our national goals here in the united states yeah yeah so that's a that's a great question john let me let me talk about in two uh two basic ways but number one is and and i know um some people in the audience this might make them a little bit uncomfortable but i have to talk about the threat right um and then relative to that threat i really have to talk about the importance of uh of cyber and specifically cyber security as it relates to that threat um the threats that we face um really represent a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber uh we've seen a lot of action in recent months uh from certain countries notably china and russia uh that have threatened what i referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space for example uh it through many unclassified sources and media sources everybody should understand that um uh the russians have been testing on orbit uh anti-satellite capabilities it's been very clear if you were following just the week before last the department of defense released its uh 2020 military and security developments involving the people's republic of china um uh and uh it was very clear that china is developing asats electronic jammers directed energy weapons and most relevant to today's discussion offensive cyber uh capabilities there are kinetic threats uh that are very very easy to see but a cyber attack against a critical uh command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of gps and important to note that that gps system also impacts many civilians who are dependent upon those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to a system to mislead operators so that they send emergency services personnel to the to the wrong address right attacks on spacecraft on orbit whether directly via a network of intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the systems production uh while we're building the satellite can [ __ ] or corrupt the data denial of service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control i mean if gps went down i you know i hesitate to say it this way because we might elicit some screams from the audience but if gps went down a starbucks wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you and domino's certainly certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less right so with a little bit of tongue-in-cheek there from a military operations perspective it's dead serious um uh we have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like lance ransomware and malware and those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems however what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled if you will to use against our national security space systems uh day in and day out um as i said during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity if commanders in the field uh firefighters in california or baristas in in starbucks can't trust the data they see they're receiving then that really harms their decision-making capabilities one of the big trends we've recently seen is the mood move towards proliferated leo uh uh constellations obviously uh spacex's uh starlink uh on the commercial side and on the military side the work that darpa and my organization smc are doing on blackjack and casino as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionize how we plan and field warfighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems but they're also heavily reliant on cyber security uh we've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage uh loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from uh you know satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning on board spacecraft or at the edge our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector they're basically flying boxes full of software right and we need to ensure the data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms govern governing the right actions and that those uh that those systems are impervious to the extent possible uh to nefarious uh modifications so in summation a cyber security is vital element of everything in our national security space goals and i would argue for our national uh goals uh writ large including uh economic and information uh uh dimensions uh the space force leadership at all levels uh from uh some of the brand new second lieutenants that general raymond uh swore into the space force this morning uh ceremonially from the uh air force association's air space and cyberspace conference uh to the various highest levels general raymond uh general d t thompson myself and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise we've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems because it they absolutely depend on it you know you mentioned uh hardware software threats opportunities challenges i want to ask you because you you got me thinking of the minute there around infrastructure i mean we've heard critical infrastructure you know grids here on on earth you're talking about critical infrastructure a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is an extension of what we have so i'd love to get your thoughts about space force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors because you know the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyber space oh yeah threat vectors they're always increasing the surface area well if the surface area is from space it's an unlimited surface area so you got different vectors so you got new critical infrastructure developing real time really fast and you got an expanded threat vector landscape putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues how would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things well so i tell you um i just like um uh just like uh i'm sure people in the security side or the cyber security side of the business in the banking industry feel they feel like it's uh all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system to the financial sector on the department of defense side we've got to have sort of the same mindset um that threat vector from to and through space against critical space systems ground segments the launch enterprise or transportation uh to orbit and the various different uh domains within uh within space itself like i mentioned before uh leo mio and geo-based satellites with different orbits all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that i mentioned earlier some that i didn't mention like weather tactical or wide band communications uh various new features of space control all of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security uh threat perspective and it's a it's a daunting challenge right now right yeah it's awesome and one of the things we've been following on the hardware side here in the on the ground is the supply chain we've seen you know malware being you know really put into really obscure hardware who manufactures it as being outsourced obviously government has restrictions but with the private sector uh you mentioned china and and the us kind of working together across these these peaceful areas but you got to look at the supply chain how does the supply chain the security aspect impact the mission of the u.s space force yeah yeah so so um how about another um just in terms of an example another kind of california-based historical example right um the very first u.s satellite uh explorer one was built by uh the jet propulsion uh laboratory folks uh not far from here in el segundo up in uh up in pasadena um that satellite when it was first built in the late 50s uh weighed a little bit over 30 pounds and i'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by u.s companies fast forward to today the global supply chain is so tightly coupled and frankly many industries are so specialized almost specialized regionally around the planet we focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the the heritage if you will of some of the parts that are used the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized right the space industry especially uh national security space sector um uh is relatively small compared to other commercial industries and we're moving to towards using more and more parts uh from non-us companies uh cyber security and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily um understand 100 percent like an explorer one uh the the lineage of that particular part the environmental difficulties in space are well known the radiation environment the temperature extremes the vacuum those require specialized component and the us military is not the only uh customer in that space in fact we're definitely not the dominant customer uh in space anymore all those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains from a quality perspective a security perspective and availability um there's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from um many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of uh you know compromised patches if you will and our adversaries are aware of these techniques as i mentioned earlier with other forms of attack considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries so we have to uh take that threat seriously um between the government and industry sectors here in the u.s we're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities last fall we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at space and missile system center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio and it sounds really kind of you know businessy geeky if you will you know hey we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cyber security as dynamically as we possibly could and so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts to require system developers to implement some more advanced uh protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment so that data handling and supply chain perspective uh protections um from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account uh cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now it's as important as the the mission performance of the system it's as important as cost it's as important as schedule because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost uh it can perform that missile warning or that communications mis mission perfectly but it's not cyber secure if it doesn't have cyber protections built into it or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber uh threats then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the k the the war fighter or the nation uh any good um supply chain risk management is a is a major challenge for us uh we're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners uh we're all facing it head on uh to try and build secure and trusted components uh that keep our confidence as leaders firefighters and baristas uh as the case may be uh but it is a challenge and we're trying to rise to that challenge you know this so exciting this new area because it really touches everything you know talk about geeking out on on the tech the hardware the systems but also you put your kind of mba hat on you go what's the roi of the extra development and how you how things get built because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like you're building cool stuff people love it's it's exciting but you still have to build and cyber security has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture so you're still building things which means you've got to acquire things you got to acquire parts you got to acquire build software and and sustain it how is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space yeah from initial development uh through planning for the acquisition design development fielding or production fielding and sustainment it impacts all aspects of of the life cycle john uh we simply especially from the concept of baking in cyber security uh we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure so we've moved way further uh towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cyber security from the very beginning of a system's development cyber security and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute as i mentioned earlier equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance we like to talk in uh in the space world about uh mission assurance and mission assurance has always you know sort of taken us as we as we technically geek out right mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space right can it work in a vacuum can it work in you know as it as it uh you know transfers through uh the van allen radiation belt or through the the um the southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly right will it work out in space and now from a resiliency perspective yeah it has to work in space it's got to be functional in space but it's also got to be resistant to these cyber security threats it's it's not just i think uh general dt thompson quoted this term it's not just widget assurance anymore it's mission assurance um uh how does that satellite uh operator that ground control segment operate while under attack so let me break your question a little bit uh just for purposes of discussion into into really two parts uh cyber uh for cyber security for systems that are new and cyber security uh for systems that are in sustainment or kind of old and legacy um obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threaten both and we really have to employ different strategies for for defense of of each one for new systems uh we're desperately trying to implement across the department of defense in particular in the space world a kind of a devsecops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems here at smc we have a program called enterprise ground services which is a tool kit basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems egs as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of of bad behavior malicious behavior if you will um uh it's rudimentary at this point but because we're using devsecops and that incremental development approach as we scale it it just becomes more and more capable you know every every product increment that we field here at uh at uh la air force base uh uh we have the united space space forces west coast software factory which we've dubbed kobayashi maru they're using those agile devops uh software development practices uh to deliver uh space awareness software uh to the combined space operations center uh affectionately called the csp that c-spock is just down the road uh from cal poly uh there in san luis obispo at vandenberg air force base they've securely linked the c-spock with other space operation centers around the planet our allies australia canada and the uk uh we're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations so lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development uh capabilities for our our space systems but as i mentioned earlier we've got large constellations on satellite of satellites on orbit right now some of them are well in excess of a decade or more old on orbit and so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old and so but we still have to worry about them because they're critical to our space capabilities um we've been working with an air force materiel command organization uh called crows which stands for the cyber resiliency office for uh weapon systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to to live through this increasingly cyber security uh concerned era that we currently live in our industry partners have been critical to to both of those different avenues both new systems and legacy systems we're working closely with them to defend and upgrade uh national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with uh with new national assets coming online the vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threaten the way we've done business in the past both militarily and in the case of gps economically the impacts of that cyber security risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes but i've got to tell you it that as the threat vectors change as the vulnerabilities change we've got to be nimble enough agile enough to be able to bounce back and forth we can't just say uh many people in the audience are probably familiar with the rmf or the risk management framework approach to um to reviewing uh the cyber security of a system we can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an rmf on a system and then hey high five we're all good uh it's a journey not a destination that's cyber security and it's a constant battle rhythm throughout a weapon systems life cycle not just a single event i want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question but before i go there you mentioned the agile and i see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles you've got to be faster and we saw this in the computer industry mainframes mini computers and then when you started getting beyond me when the internet hit and pcs came out you saw the big enterprises the banks and and government start to work with startups it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that you know there's no way if you're a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise now that used to be for public sector and certainly uh for you guys so as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved i'm sure would love to love to have a contract with space force there's an roi calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view edit software you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you uh whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile but they might not be that big company we are john that's a fantastic question we are desperately trying to reach out to to those new space advocates to those startups to those um what we sometimes refer to within the department of defense those non-traditional uh defense contractors a couple of things just for uh thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight um uh three years ago we created here at uh space and missile system center uh the space enterprise consortium uh to provide a platform uh a contractual vehicle really to enable us to rapidly prototype uh development of space systems and to collaborate uh between the u.s space force uh traditional defense contractors non-traditional vendors like startups and even some academic institutions uh spec as we call it space enterprise consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts uh awarded quickly many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements and that's what spec is based on and so far in just three years spec has awarded 75 different uh prototyping contracts worth over 800 million dollars with a 36 reduction in time to award and because it's a consortium based competition for um for these kinds of prototyping efforts the barrier to entry for small and non-traditional for startups even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototypings is really lowered right um uh these types of partnerships uh that we've been working through on spec uh have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security uh for their systems both their developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build we want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together and support um uh kind of mutually beneficial uh relationships between all um recently uh at the annual air force association uh conference that i mentioned earlier i moderated a panel with several space industry leaders uh all from big traditional defense contractors by the way and they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships uh between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrants uh and that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those uh larger contractors uh that we rely on day in and day out advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that i think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations as i mentioned earlier the spec has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values and it's just going to get better right there's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium 80 of them are non-traditional kinds of vendors and we just love working with them another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators uh if you will and innovators that include uh cyber security experts is our space pitch day events right so we held our first event last november in san francisco uh where we awarded over a two-day period about 46 million dollars to 30 different companies um that had potentially game-changing ideas these were phase two small business innovative research efforts uh that we awarded with cash on the spot uh we're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. uh we're planning on doing it right here in los angeles uh covent 19 environment permitting um and we think that these are you know fantastic uh uh venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups startups and small businesses who are interested in uh really truly partnering with the us air force it's a as i said before it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business uh and working with the innovation economy uh is something that the department of defense uh really needs to do in that um the innovation that we used to think was ours you know that 80 percent of the industrial-based innovation that came from the department of defense uh the the script has been flipped there and so now more than 70 percent uh particularly in space innovation uh comes from the commercial sector not from uh not from the defense business itself and so um that's a tsunami of uh investment and a tsunami of uh capability and i need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it you know what i mean yeah i mean it's one of those things where the flip the script has been flipped but it's exciting because it's impacting everything are you talking about systems architecture you're talking about software you're talking about a business model you talk about devsecops from a technical perspective but now you have a business model innovation all the theaters of uh are exploding in innovation technical business personnel this brings up the workforce challenge you've got the cyber needs for the u.s space force there's probably a great roi model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts that's a entrepreneurial innovation you got the the business model theater you've got the personnel how does the industry adopt and change you guys are clearly driving this how does the industry adjust to you yeah so um i think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the u.s space force from a from an acquisition perspective and in this particular case from a from a cyber security perspective as i mentioned earlier it's the most exciting time to be in space programs uh really since the days of apollo um uh you know just to put it in terms that you know maybe have an impact with the audience uh from 1957 until today approximately 9 000 satellites uh have been launched from the various space faring countries around the planet uh less than two thousand of those nine thousand are still up on orbit and operational and yet in the new space regime um players like spacex have plans to launch you know 12 000 satellites for some of their constellations alone it really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities whether they're commercial civil or defense are going to require appropriate cyber security uh protections it's just a really exciting time uh to be working in stuff like this and so uh folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cyber security are just the kind of people that we want to work with because we need to make sure our systems are are secure and resilient we need folks that have technical and computing expertise engineering skills to be able to design cybersecure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks uh but we also as you alluded to we need people that have that business and um you know business acumen human networking background so that we can launch the startups and work with the non-traditional businesses uh help to bring them on board help to secure both their data and our data and uh and and make sure our processes and systems are are free as much as possible from uh uh from attack um for preparation for for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this uh trade space um you gotta be smart on digital networking uh you gotta understand basic internet protocols concepts uh programming languages uh database design uh learn what you can from penetration or vulnerability testing and and uh risk assessment i will tell you this and i don't think he will i know he will not mind me telling you this but you've got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago i'm at home one evening and i get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss the commander of air force space command uh general j raymond who is now currently the chief of space operations and he is on temporary duty flying overseas he lands where he's going and he first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes jt um while i was traveling um i noticed that there were e-books available on the commercial airliner i was traveling on and there was an e-book on something called scrumming and agile devsecops and i read it have you read it um and i said no sir but if you tell me what the title of the book is i will read it and so i got to go to my staff meeting um you know the very next week the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the stab meeting hey if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming then i'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our gs13s all of our government employees can get smart on uh the scrumming development process and interestingly as another side i had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays where he was trying to take some leave and i said sir what are you up to today are you are you you know making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever and the chief of space operations told me no i'm trying to teach myself python i'm at lesson two and it's not going so well but i'm i'm gonna figure this out and so that kind of thing if the chief of staff or the you know the the the chief of space operations can prioritize scrumming and python language and innovation in his daily schedule then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that and we'll just say lower levels of rank uh throughout our entire space force enterprise um look i i we don't need to need people that can code a satellite from scratch but we need to know we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cyber security requirements and that can turn those things into into meaningful actions obviously in the space domain things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important uh space is not an intuitive uh domain so under understanding how things survive uh on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions and you know i know there's probably a lot because of this conference i know there's a probably a whole lot of high-speed cyber security experts out in the audience and i need those people in the u.s space force the the country is counting on it but i wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy right i have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers and they don't have to be high-end cyber security experts but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections um into our space system so the skill set is is really really broad um our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into uh define designing uh and fielding offensive and destructive space cyber security weapons right they've repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit and the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that as i mentioned before peaceful uh global commons of space we really need all hands on deck if you're interested in helping in uniform if you're interested in helping uh not in uniform uh but as a government employee a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important uh or more cape more able to be developed for our space systems then we'd really love to uh to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems lieutenant general john thompson great insight thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too and motivation for the young next generation the united states space force approach of cyber security really amazing talk thank you for your time final parting question is as you look out and you had your magic wand what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish it's a super exciting time what do you hope for so um um first of all john thanks to you and and thanks to cal poly uh for the invitation and and thanks to everybody for uh for their interest in cyber security especially as it relates to space systems that's here at the conference um uh there's a quote and i'll read it here uh from uh bernard schriever who was the uh the founder if you will uh a legend in uh dod space the founder of the western development division which was a predecessor organization to space and missile systems center general shrever i think captures the essence of what how we see the next couple of years the world has an ample supply of people who can always come up with a dozen good reasons why new ideas will not work and should not be tried but the people who produce progress are breed apart they have the imagination the courage and the persistence to find solutions and so i think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cyber security innovation are going to be a pony ride at the county fair then perhaps you should look for another line of work because i think the next few years in space and cyber security innovation are going to be more like a rodeo um and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes it is a an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem it's really an honor for me to um to be able to play some small role uh in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it uh while i'm trying to improve the chances of uh of the united states of america in a uh in a space war fighting uh uh environment um and so i thank all of you for uh participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you thank you sir thank you for your leadership and thank you for the for the time for this awesome event space and cyber security symposium 2020 i'm john furrier on behalf of cal poly thanks for watching [Music]

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube covering >>space and cybersecurity. Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly >>Over On Welcome to this Special virtual conference. The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 put on by Cal Poly with support from the Cube. I'm John for your host and master of ceremonies. Got a great topic today in this session. Really? The intersection of space and cybersecurity. This topic and this conversation is the cybersecurity workforce development through public and private partnerships. And we've got a great lineup. We have Jeff Armstrong's the president of California Polytechnic State University, also known as Cal Poly Jeffrey. Thanks for jumping on and Bang. Go ahead. The second director of C four s R Division. And he's joining us from the office of the Under Secretary of Defense for the acquisition Sustainment Department of Defense, D O D. And, of course, Steve Jake's executive director, founder, National Security Space Association and managing partner at Bello's. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this session. We got an hour conversation. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. >>So we got a virtual event here. We've got an hour, have a great conversation and love for you guys do? In opening statement on how you see the development through public and private partnerships around cybersecurity in space, Jeff will start with you. >>Well, thanks very much, John. It's great to be on with all of you. Uh, on behalf Cal Poly Welcome, everyone. Educating the workforce of tomorrow is our mission to Cal Poly. Whether that means traditional undergraduates, master students are increasingly mid career professionals looking toe up, skill or re skill. Our signature pedagogy is learn by doing, which means that our graduates arrive at employers ready Day one with practical skills and experience. We have long thought of ourselves is lucky to be on California's beautiful central Coast. But in recent years, as we have developed closer relationships with Vandenberg Air Force Base, hopefully the future permanent headquarters of the United States Space Command with Vandenberg and other regional partners, we have discovered that our location is even more advantages than we thought. We're just 50 miles away from Vandenberg, a little closer than u C. Santa Barbara, and the base represents the southern border of what we have come to think of as the central coast region. Cal Poly and Vandenberg Air force base have partner to support regional economic development to encourage the development of a commercial spaceport toe advocate for the space Command headquarters coming to Vandenberg and other ventures. These partnerships have been possible because because both parties stand to benefit Vandenberg by securing new streams of revenue, workforce and local supply chain and Cal Poly by helping to grow local jobs for graduates, internship opportunities for students, and research and entrepreneurship opportunities for faculty and staff. Crucially, what's good for Vandenberg Air Force Base and for Cal Poly is also good for the Central Coast and the US, creating new head of household jobs, infrastructure and opportunity. Our goal is that these new jobs bring more diversity and sustainability for the region. This regional economic development has taken on a life of its own, spawning a new nonprofit called Reach, which coordinates development efforts from Vandenberg Air Force Base in the South to camp to Camp Roberts in the North. Another factor that is facilitated our relationship with Vandenberg Air Force Base is that we have some of the same friends. For example, Northrop Grumman has has long been an important defense contractor, an important partner to Cal poly funding scholarships and facilities that have allowed us to stay current with technology in it to attract highly qualified students for whom Cal Poly's costs would otherwise be prohibitive. For almost 20 years north of grimness funded scholarships for Cal Poly students this year, their funding 64 scholarships, some directly in our College of Engineering and most through our Cal Poly Scholars program, Cal Poly Scholars, a support both incoming freshman is transfer students. These air especially important because it allows us to provide additional support and opportunities to a group of students who are mostly first generation, low income and underrepresented and who otherwise might not choose to attend Cal Poly. They also allow us to recruit from partner high schools with large populations of underrepresented minority students, including the Fortune High School in Elk Grove, which we developed a deep and lasting connection. We know that the best work is done by balanced teams that include multiple and diverse perspectives. These scholarships help us achieve that goal, and I'm sure you know Northrop Grumman was recently awarded a very large contract to modernized the U. S. I. C B M Armory with some of the work being done at Vandenberg Air Force Base, thus supporting the local economy and protecting protecting our efforts in space requires partnerships in the digital realm. How Polly is partnered with many private companies, such as AWS. Our partnerships with Amazon Web services has enabled us to train our students with next generation cloud engineering skills, in part through our jointly created digital transformation hub. Another partnership example is among Cal Poly's California Cybersecurity Institute, College of Engineering and the California National Guard. This partnership is focused on preparing a cyber ready workforce by providing faculty and students with a hands on research and learning environment, side by side with military, law enforcement professionals and cyber experts. We also have a long standing partnership with PG and E, most recently focused on workforce development and redevelopment. Many of our graduates do indeed go on to careers in aerospace and defense industry as a rough approximation. More than 4500 Cal Poly graduates list aerospace and defense as their employment sector on linked in, and it's not just our engineers and computer sciences. When I was speaking to our fellow Panelists not too long ago, >>are >>speaking to bang, we learned that Rachel sins, one of our liberal arts arts majors, is working in his office. So shout out to you, Rachel. And then finally, of course, some of our graduates sword extraordinary heights such as Commander Victor Glover, who will be heading to the International space station later this year as I close. All of which is to say that we're deeply committed the workforce, development and redevelopment that we understand the value of public private partnerships and that were eager to find new ways in which to benefit everyone from this further cooperation. So we're committed to the region, the state in the nation and our past efforts in space, cybersecurity and links to our partners at as I indicated, aerospace industry and governmental partners provides a unique position for us to move forward in the interface of space and cybersecurity. Thank you so much, John. >>President, I'm sure thank you very much for the comments and congratulations to Cal Poly for being on the forefront of innovation and really taking a unique progressive. You and wanna tip your hat to you guys over there. Thank you very much for those comments. Appreciate it. Bahng. Department of Defense. Exciting you gotta defend the nation spaces Global. Your opening statement. >>Yes, sir. Thanks, John. Appreciate that day. Thank you, everybody. I'm honored to be this panel along with President Armstrong, Cal Poly in my long longtime friend and colleague Steve Jakes of the National Security Space Association, to discuss a very important topic of cybersecurity workforce development, as President Armstrong alluded to, I'll tell you both of these organizations, Cal Poly and the N S. A have done and continue to do an exceptional job at finding talent, recruiting them in training current and future leaders and technical professionals that we vitally need for our nation's growing space programs. A swell Asare collective National security Earlier today, during Session three high, along with my colleague Chris Hansen discussed space, cyber Security and how the space domain is changing the landscape of future conflicts. I discussed the rapid emergence of commercial space with the proliferations of hundreds, if not thousands, of satellites providing a variety of services, including communications allowing for global Internet connectivity. S one example within the O. D. We continue to look at how we can leverage this opportunity. I'll tell you one of the enabling technologies eyes the use of small satellites, which are inherently cheaper and perhaps more flexible than the traditional bigger systems that we have historically used unemployed for the U. D. Certainly not lost on Me is the fact that Cal Poly Pioneer Cube SATs 2020 some years ago, and they set the standard for the use of these systems today. So they saw the valiant benefit gained way ahead of everybody else, it seems, and Cal Poly's focus on training and education is commendable. I especially impressed by the efforts of another of Steve's I colleague, current CEO Mr Bill Britain, with his high energy push to attract the next generation of innovators. Uh, earlier this year, I had planned on participating in this year's Cyber Innovation Challenge. In June works Cal Poly host California Mill and high school students and challenge them with situations to test their cyber knowledge. I tell you, I wish I had that kind of opportunity when I was a kid. Unfortunately, the pandemic change the plan. Why I truly look forward. Thio feature events such as these Thio participating. Now I want to recognize my good friend Steve Jakes, whom I've known for perhaps too long of a time here over two decades or so, who was in acknowledge space expert and personally, I truly applaud him for having the foresight of years back to form the National Security Space Association to help the entire space enterprise navigate through not only technology but Polly policy issues and challenges and paved the way for operational izing space. Space is our newest horrifying domain. That's not a secret anymore. Uh, and while it is a unique area, it shares a lot of common traits with the other domains such as land, air and sea, obviously all of strategically important to the defense of the United States. In conflict they will need to be. They will all be contested and therefore they all need to be defended. One domain alone will not win future conflicts in a joint operation. We must succeed. All to defending space is critical as critical is defending our other operational domains. Funny space is no longer the sanctuary available only to the government. Increasingly, as I discussed in the previous session, commercial space is taking the lead a lot of different areas, including R and D, A so called new space, so cyber security threat is even more demanding and even more challenging. Three US considers and federal access to and freedom to operate in space vital to advancing security, economic prosperity, prosperity and scientific knowledge of the country. That's making cyberspace an inseparable component. America's financial, social government and political life. We stood up US Space force ah, year ago or so as the newest military service is like the other services. Its mission is to organize, train and equip space forces in order to protect us and allied interest in space and to provide space capabilities to the joint force. Imagine combining that US space force with the U. S. Cyber Command to unify the direction of space and cyberspace operation strengthened U D capabilities and integrate and bolster d o d cyber experience. Now, of course, to enable all of this requires had trained and professional cadre of cyber security experts, combining a good mix of policy as well as high technical skill set much like we're seeing in stem, we need to attract more people to this growing field. Now the D. O. D. Is recognized the importance of the cybersecurity workforce, and we have implemented policies to encourage his growth Back in 2013 the deputy secretary of defense signed the D. O d cyberspace workforce strategy to create a comprehensive, well equipped cyber security team to respond to national security concerns. Now this strategy also created a program that encourages collaboration between the D. O. D and private sector employees. We call this the Cyber Information Technology Exchange program or site up. It's an exchange programs, which is very interesting, in which a private sector employees can naturally work for the D. O. D. In a cyber security position that spans across multiple mission critical areas are important to the d. O. D. A key responsibility of cybersecurity community is military leaders on the related threats and cyber security actions we need to have to defeat these threats. We talk about rapid that position, agile business processes and practices to speed up innovation. Likewise, cybersecurity must keep up with this challenge to cyber security. Needs to be right there with the challenges and changes, and this requires exceptional personnel. We need to attract talent investing the people now to grow a robust cybersecurity, workforce, streets, future. I look forward to the panel discussion, John. Thank you. >>Thank you so much bomb for those comments and you know, new challenges and new opportunities and new possibilities and free freedom Operating space. Critical. Thank you for those comments. Looking forward. Toa chatting further. Steve Jakes, executive director of N. S. S. A Europe opening statement. >>Thank you, John. And echoing bangs thanks to Cal Poly for pulling these this important event together and frankly, for allowing the National Security Space Association be a part of it. Likewise, we on behalf the association delighted and honored Thio be on this panel with President Armstrong along with my friend and colleague Bonneau Glue Mahad Something for you all to know about Bomb. He spent the 1st 20 years of his career in the Air Force doing space programs. He then went into industry for several years and then came back into government to serve. Very few people do that. So bang on behalf of the space community, we thank you for your long life long devotion to service to our nation. We really appreciate that and I also echo a bang shot out to that guy Bill Britain, who has been a long time co conspirator of ours for a long time and you're doing great work there in the cyber program at Cal Poly Bill, keep it up. But professor arms trying to keep a close eye on him. Uh, I would like to offer a little extra context to the great comments made by by President Armstrong and bahng. Uh, in our view, the timing of this conference really could not be any better. Um, we all recently reflected again on that tragic 9 11 surprise attack on our homeland. And it's an appropriate time, we think, to take pause while the percentage of you in the audience here weren't even born or babies then For the most of us, it still feels like yesterday. And moreover, a tragedy like 9 11 has taught us a lot to include to be more vigilant, always keep our collective eyes and ears open to include those quote eyes and ears from space, making sure nothing like this ever happens again. So this conference is a key aspect. Protecting our nation requires we work in a cybersecurity environment at all times. But, you know, the fascinating thing about space systems is we can't see him. No, sir, We see Space launches man there's nothing more invigorating than that. But after launch, they become invisible. So what are they really doing up there? What are they doing to enable our quality of life in the United States and in the world? Well, to illustrate, I'd like to paraphrase elements of an article in Forbes magazine by Bonds and my good friend Chuck Beans. Chuck. It's a space guy, actually had Bonds job a fuse in the Pentagon. He is now chairman and chief strategy officer at York Space Systems, and in his spare time he's chairman of the small satellites. Chuck speaks in words that everyone can understand. So I'd like to give you some of his words out of his article. Uh, they're afraid somewhat. So these are Chuck's words. Let's talk about average Joe and playing Jane. Before heading to the airport for a business trip to New York City, Joe checks the weather forecast informed by Noah's weather satellites to see what pack for the trip. He then calls an uber that space app. Everybody uses it matches riders with drivers via GPS to take into the airport, So Joe has lunch of the airport. Unbeknownst to him, his organic lunch is made with the help of precision farming made possible through optimized irrigation and fertilization, with remote spectral sensing coming from space and GPS on the plane, the pilot navigates around weather, aided by GPS and nose weather satellites. And Joe makes his meeting on time to join his New York colleagues in a video call with a key customer in Singapore made possible by telecommunication satellites. Around to his next meeting, Joe receives notice changing the location of the meeting to another to the other side of town. So he calmly tells Syria to adjust the destination, and his satellite guided Google maps redirects him to the new location. That evening, Joe watches the news broadcast via satellite. The report details a meeting among world leaders discussing the developing crisis in Syria. As it turns out, various forms of quote remotely sensed. Information collected from satellites indicate that yet another band, chemical weapon, may have been used on its own people. Before going to bed, Joe decides to call his parents and congratulate them for their wedding anniversary as they cruise across the Atlantic, made possible again by communications satellites and Joe's parents can enjoy the call without even wondering how it happened the next morning. Back home, Joe's wife, Jane, is involved in a car accident. Her vehicle skids off the road. She's knocked unconscious, but because of her satellite equipped on star system, the crash is detected immediately and first responders show up on the scene. In time, Joe receives the news books. An early trip home sends flowers to his wife as he orders another uber to the airport. Over that 24 hours, Joe and Jane used space system applications for nearly every part of their day. Imagine the consequences if at any point they were somehow denied these services, whether they be by natural causes or a foreign hostility. And each of these satellite applications used in this case were initially developed for military purposes and continue to be, but also have remarkable application on our way of life. Just many people just don't know that. So, ladies and gentlemen, now you know, thanks to chuck beans, well, the United States has a proud heritage being the world's leading space faring nation, dating back to the Eisenhower and Kennedy years. Today we have mature and robust systems operating from space, providing overhead reconnaissance to quote, wash and listen, provide missile warning, communications, positioning, navigation and timing from our GPS system. Much of what you heard in Lieutenant General J. T. Thompson earlier speech. These systems are not only integral to our national security, but also our also to our quality of life is Chuck told us. We simply no longer could live without these systems as a nation and for that matter, as a world. But over the years, adversary like adversaries like China, Russia and other countries have come to realize the value of space systems and are aggressively playing ketchup while also pursuing capabilities that will challenge our systems. As many of you know, in 2000 and seven, China demonstrated it's a set system by actually shooting down is one of its own satellites and has been aggressively developing counter space systems to disrupt hours. So in a heavily congested space environment, our systems are now being contested like never before and will continue to bay well as Bond mentioned, the United States has responded to these changing threats. In addition to adding ways to protect our system, the administration and in Congress recently created the United States Space Force and the operational you United States Space Command, the latter of which you heard President Armstrong and other Californians hope is going to be located. Vandenberg Air Force Base Combined with our intelligence community today, we have focused military and civilian leadership now in space. And that's a very, very good thing. Commence, really. On the industry side, we did create the National Security Space Association devoted solely to supporting the national security Space Enterprise. We're based here in the D C area, but we have arms and legs across the country, and we are loaded with extraordinary talent. In scores of Forman, former government executives, So S s a is joined at the hip with our government customers to serve and to support. We're busy with a multitude of activities underway ranging from a number of thought provoking policy. Papers are recurring space time Webcast supporting Congress's Space Power Caucus and other main serious efforts. Check us out at NSS. A space dot org's One of our strategic priorities in central to today's events is to actively promote and nurture the workforce development. Just like cow calling. We will work with our U. S. Government customers, industry leaders and academia to attract and recruit students to join the space world, whether in government or industry and two assistant mentoring and training as their careers. Progress on that point, we're delighted. Be delighted to be working with Cal Poly as we hopefully will undertake a new pilot program with him very soon. So students stay tuned something I can tell you Space is really cool. While our nation's satellite systems are technical and complex, our nation's government and industry work force is highly diverse, with a combination of engineers, physicists, method and mathematicians, but also with a large non technical expertise as well. Think about how government gets things thes systems designed, manufactured, launching into orbit and operating. They do this via contracts with our aerospace industry, requiring talents across the board from cost estimating cost analysis, budgeting, procurement, legal and many other support. Tasker Integral to the mission. Many thousands of people work in the space workforce tens of billions of dollars every year. This is really cool stuff, no matter what your education background, a great career to be part of. When summary as bang had mentioned Aziz, well, there is a great deal of exciting challenges ahead we will see a new renaissance in space in the years ahead, and in some cases it's already begun. Billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Richard Branson are in the game, stimulating new ideas in business models, other private investors and start up companies. Space companies are now coming in from all angles. The exponential advancement of technology and microelectronics now allows the potential for a plethora of small SAT systems to possibly replace older satellites the size of a Greyhound bus. It's getting better by the day and central to this conference, cybersecurity is paramount to our nation's critical infrastructure in space. So once again, thanks very much, and I look forward to the further conversation. >>Steve, thank you very much. Space is cool. It's relevant. But it's important, as you pointed out, and you're awesome story about how it impacts our life every day. So I really appreciate that great story. I'm glad you took the time Thio share that you forgot the part about the drone coming over in the crime scene and, you know, mapping it out for you. But that would add that to the story later. Great stuff. My first question is let's get into the conversations because I think this is super important. President Armstrong like you to talk about some of the points that was teased out by Bang and Steve. One in particular is the comment around how military research was important in developing all these capabilities, which is impacting all of our lives. Through that story. It was the military research that has enabled a generation and generation of value for consumers. This is kind of this workforce conversation. There are opportunities now with with research and grants, and this is, ah, funding of innovation that it's highly accelerate. It's happening very quickly. Can you comment on how research and the partnerships to get that funding into the universities is critical? >>Yeah, I really appreciate that And appreciate the comments of my colleagues on it really boils down to me to partnerships, public private partnerships. You mentioned Northrop Grumman, but we have partnerships with Lockie Martin, Boeing, Raytheon Space six JPL, also member of organization called Business Higher Education Forum, which brings together university presidents and CEOs of companies. There's been focused on cybersecurity and data science, and I hope that we can spill into cybersecurity in space but those partnerships in the past have really brought a lot forward at Cal Poly Aziz mentioned we've been involved with Cube set. Uh, we've have some secure work and we want to plan to do more of that in the future. Uh, those partnerships are essential not only for getting the r and d done, but also the students, the faculty, whether masters or undergraduate, can be involved with that work. Uh, they get that real life experience, whether it's on campus or virtually now during Covic or at the location with the partner, whether it may be governmental or our industry. Uh, and then they're even better equipped, uh, to hit the ground running. And of course, we'd love to see even more of our students graduate with clearance so that they could do some of that a secure work as well. So these partnerships are absolutely critical, and it's also in the context of trying to bring the best and the brightest and all demographics of California and the US into this field, uh, to really be successful. So these partnerships are essential, and our goal is to grow them just like I know other colleagues and C. S u and the U C are planning to dio, >>you know, just as my age I've seen I grew up in the eighties, in college and during that systems generation and that the generation before me, they really kind of pioneered the space that spawned the computer revolution. I mean, you look at these key inflection points in our lives. They were really funded through these kinds of real deep research. Bond talk about that because, you know, we're living in an age of cloud. And Bezos was mentioned. Elon Musk. Sir Richard Branson. You got new ideas coming in from the outside. You have an accelerated clock now on terms of the innovation cycles, and so you got to react differently. You guys have programs to go outside >>of >>the Defense Department. How important is this? Because the workforce that air in schools and our folks re skilling are out there and you've been on both sides of the table. So share your thoughts. >>No, thanks, John. Thanks for the opportunity responded. And that's what you hit on the notes back in the eighties, R and D in space especially, was dominated by my government funding. Uh, contracts and so on. But things have changed. As Steve pointed out, A lot of these commercial entities funded by billionaires are coming out of the woodwork funding R and D. So they're taking the lead. So what we can do within the deal, the in government is truly take advantage of the work they've done on. Uh, since they're they're, you know, paving the way to new new approaches and new way of doing things. And I think we can We could certainly learn from that. And leverage off of that saves us money from an R and D standpoint while benefiting from from the product that they deliver, you know, within the O D Talking about workforce development Way have prioritized we have policies now to attract and retain talent. We need I I had the folks do some research and and looks like from a cybersecurity workforce standpoint. A recent study done, I think, last year in 2019 found that the cybersecurity workforce gap in the U. S. Is nearing half a million people, even though it is a growing industry. So the pipeline needs to be strengthened off getting people through, you know, starting young and through college, like assess a professor Armstrong indicated, because we're gonna need them to be in place. Uh, you know, in a period of about maybe a decade or so, Uh, on top of that, of course, is the continuing issue we have with the gap with with stamps students, we can't afford not to have expertise in place to support all the things we're doing within the with the not only deal with the but the commercial side as well. Thank you. >>How's the gap? Get? Get filled. I mean, this is the this is again. You got cybersecurity. I mean, with space. It's a whole another kind of surface area, if you will, in early surface area. But it is. It is an I o t. Device if you think about it. But it does have the same challenges. That's kind of current and and progressive with cybersecurity. Where's the gap Get filled, Steve Or President Armstrong? I mean, how do you solve the problem and address this gap in the workforce? What is some solutions and what approaches do we need to put in place? >>Steve, go ahead. I'll follow up. >>Okay. Thanks. I'll let you correct. May, uh, it's a really good question, and it's the way I would. The way I would approach it is to focus on it holistically and to acknowledge it up front. And it comes with our teaching, etcetera across the board and from from an industry perspective, I mean, we see it. We've gotta have secure systems with everything we do and promoting this and getting students at early ages and mentoring them and throwing internships at them. Eyes is so paramount to the whole the whole cycle, and and that's kind of and it really takes focused attention. And we continue to use the word focus from an NSS, a perspective. We know the challenges that are out there. There are such talented people in the workforce on the government side, but not nearly enough of them. And likewise on industry side. We could use Maura's well, but when you get down to it, you know we can connect dots. You know that the the aspect That's a Professor Armstrong talked about earlier toe where you continue to work partnerships as much as you possibly can. We hope to be a part of that. That network at that ecosystem the will of taking common objectives and working together to kind of make these things happen and to bring the power not just of one or two companies, but our our entire membership to help out >>President >>Trump. Yeah, I would. I would also add it again. It's back to partnerships that I talked about earlier. One of our partners is high schools and schools fortune Margaret Fortune, who worked in a couple of, uh, administrations in California across party lines and education. Their fifth graders all visit Cal Poly and visit our learned by doing lab and you, you've got to get students interested in stem at a early age. We also need the partnerships, the scholarships, the financial aid so the students can graduate with minimal to no debt to really hit the ground running. And that's exacerbated and really stress. Now, with this covert induced recession, California supports higher education at a higher rate than most states in the nation. But that is that has dropped this year or reasons. We all understand, uh, due to Kobe, and so our partnerships, our creativity on making sure that we help those that need the most help financially uh, that's really key, because the gaps air huge eyes. My colleagues indicated, you know, half of half a million jobs and you need to look at the the students that are in the pipeline. We've got to enhance that. Uh, it's the in the placement rates are amazing. Once the students get to a place like Cal Poly or some of our other amazing CSU and UC campuses, uh, placement rates are like 94%. >>Many of our >>engineers, they have jobs lined up a year before they graduate. So it's just gonna take key partnerships working together. Uh, and that continued partnership with government, local, of course, our state of CSU on partners like we have here today, both Stephen Bang So partnerships the thing >>e could add, you know, the collaboration with universities one that we, uh, put a lot of emphasis, and it may not be well known fact, but as an example of national security agencies, uh, National Centers of Academic Excellence in Cyber, the Fast works with over 270 colleges and universities across the United States to educate its 45 future cyber first responders as an example, so that Zatz vibrant and healthy and something that we ought Teoh Teik, banjo >>off. Well, I got the brain trust here on this topic. I want to get your thoughts on this one point. I'd like to define what is a public private partnership because the theme that's coming out of the symposium is the script has been flipped. It's a modern error. Things air accelerated get you got security. So you get all these things kind of happen is a modern approach and you're seeing a digital transformation play out all over the world in business. Andi in the public sector. So >>what is what >>is a modern public private partnership? What does it look like today? Because people are learning differently, Covert has pointed out, which was that we're seeing right now. How people the progressions of knowledge and learning truth. It's all changing. How do you guys view the modern version of public private partnership and some some examples and improve points? Can you can you guys share that? We'll start with the Professor Armstrong. >>Yeah. A zai indicated earlier. We've had on guy could give other examples, but Northup Grumman, uh, they helped us with cyber lab. Many years ago. That is maintained, uh, directly the software, the connection outside its its own unit so that students can learn the hack, they can learn to penetrate defenses, and I know that that has already had some considerations of space. But that's a benefit to both parties. So a good public private partnership has benefits to both entities. Uh, in the common factor for universities with a lot of these partnerships is the is the talent, the talent that is, that is needed, what we've been working on for years of the, you know, that undergraduate or master's or PhD programs. But now it's also spilling into Skilling and re Skilling. As you know, Jobs. Uh, you know, folks were in jobs today that didn't exist two years, three years, five years ago. But it also spills into other aspects that can expand even mawr. We're very fortunate. We have land, there's opportunities. We have one tech part project. We're expanding our tech park. I think we'll see opportunities for that, and it'll it'll be adjusted thio, due to the virtual world that we're all learning more and more about it, which we were in before Cove it. But I also think that that person to person is going to be important. Um, I wanna make sure that I'm driving across the bridge. Or or that that satellites being launched by the engineer that's had at least some in person training, uh, to do that and that experience, especially as a first time freshman coming on a campus, getting that experience expanding and as adult. And we're gonna need those public private partnerships in order to continue to fund those at a level that is at the excellence we need for these stem and engineering fields. >>It's interesting People in technology can work together in these partnerships in a new way. Bank Steve Reaction Thio the modern version of what a public, successful private partnership looks like. >>If I could jump in John, I think, you know, historically, Dodi's has have had, ah, high bar thio, uh, to overcome, if you will, in terms of getting rapid pulling in your company. This is the fault, if you will and not rely heavily in are the usual suspects of vendors and like and I think the deal is done a good job over the last couple of years off trying to reduce the burden on working with us. You know, the Air Force. I think they're pioneering this idea around pitch days where companies come in, do a two hour pitch and immediately notified of a wooden award without having to wait a long time. Thio get feedback on on the quality of the product and so on. So I think we're trying to do our best. Thio strengthen that partnership with companies outside the main group of people that we typically use. >>Steve, any reaction? Comment to add? >>Yeah, I would add a couple of these air. Very excellent thoughts. Uh, it zits about taking a little gamble by coming out of your comfort zone. You know, the world that Bond and Bond lives in and I used to live in in the past has been quite structured. It's really about we know what the threat is. We need to go fix it, will design it says we go make it happen, we'll fly it. Um, life is so much more complicated than that. And so it's it's really to me. I mean, you take you take an example of the pitch days of bond talks about I think I think taking a gamble by attempting to just do a lot of pilot programs, uh, work the trust factor between government folks and the industry folks in academia. Because we are all in this together in a lot of ways, for example. I mean, we just sent the paper to the White House of their requests about, you know, what would we do from a workforce development perspective? And we hope Thio embellish on this over time once the the initiative matures. But we have a piece of it, for example, is the thing we call clear for success getting back Thio Uh, President Armstrong's comments at the collegiate level. You know, high, high, high quality folks are in high demand. So why don't we put together a program they grabbed kids in their their underclass years identifies folks that are interested in doing something like this. Get them scholarships. Um, um, I have a job waiting for them that their contract ID for before they graduate, and when they graduate, they walk with S C I clearance. We believe that could be done so, and that's an example of ways in which the public private partnerships can happen to where you now have a talented kid ready to go on Day one. We think those kind of things can happen. It just gets back down to being focused on specific initiatives, give them giving them a chance and run as many pilot programs as you can like these days. >>That's a great point, E. President. >>I just want to jump in and echo both the bank and Steve's comments. But Steve, that you know your point of, you know, our graduates. We consider them ready Day one. Well, they need to be ready Day one and ready to go secure. We totally support that and and love to follow up offline with you on that. That's that's exciting, uh, and needed very much needed mawr of it. Some of it's happening, but way certainly have been thinking a lot about that and making some plans, >>and that's a great example of good Segway. My next question. This kind of reimagining sees work flows, eyes kind of breaking down the old the old way and bringing in kind of a new way accelerated all kind of new things. There are creative ways to address this workforce issue, and this is the next topic. How can we employ new creative solutions? Because, let's face it, you know, it's not the days of get your engineering degree and and go interview for a job and then get slotted in and get the intern. You know the programs you get you particularly through the system. This is this is multiple disciplines. Cybersecurity points at that. You could be smart and math and have, ah, degree in anthropology and even the best cyber talents on the planet. So this is a new new world. What are some creative approaches that >>you know, we're >>in the workforce >>is quite good, John. One of the things I think that za challenge to us is you know, we got somehow we got me working for with the government, sexy, right? The part of the challenge we have is attracting the right right level of skill sets and personnel. But, you know, we're competing oftentimes with the commercial side, the gaming industry as examples of a big deal. And those are the same talents. We need to support a lot of programs we have in the U. D. So somehow we have to do a better job to Steve's point off, making the work within the U. D within the government something that they would be interested early on. So I tracked him early. I kind of talked about Cal Poly's, uh, challenge program that they were gonna have in June inviting high school kid. We're excited about the whole idea of space and cyber security, and so on those air something. So I think we have to do it. Continue to do what were the course the next several years. >>Awesome. Any other creative approaches that you guys see working or might be on idea, or just a kind of stoked the ideation out their internship. So obviously internships are known, but like there's gotta be new ways. >>I think you can take what Steve was talking about earlier getting students in high school, uh, and aligning them sometimes. Uh, that intern first internship, not just between the freshman sophomore year, but before they inter cal poly per se. And they're they're involved s So I think that's, uh, absolutely key. Getting them involved many other ways. Um, we have an example of of up Skilling a redeveloped work redevelopment here in the Central Coast. PG and e Diablo nuclear plant as going to decommission in around 2020 24. And so we have a ongoing partnership toe work on reposition those employees for for the future. So that's, you know, engineering and beyond. Uh, but think about that just in the manner that you were talking about. So the up skilling and re Skilling uh, on I think that's where you know, we were talking about that Purdue University. Other California universities have been dealing with online programs before cove it and now with co vid uh, so many more faculty or were pushed into that area. There's going to be much more going and talk about workforce development and up Skilling and Re Skilling The amount of training and education of our faculty across the country, uh, in in virtual, uh, and delivery has been huge. So there's always a silver linings in the cloud. >>I want to get your guys thoughts on one final question as we in the in the segment. And we've seen on the commercial side with cloud computing on these highly accelerated environments where you know, SAS business model subscription. That's on the business side. But >>one of The >>things that's clear in this trend is technology, and people work together and technology augments the people components. So I'd love to get your thoughts as we look at the world now we're living in co vid um, Cal Poly. You guys have remote learning Right now. It's a infancy. It's a whole new disruption, if you will, but also an opportunity to enable new ways to collaborate, Right? So if you look at people and technology, can you guys share your view and vision on how communities can be developed? How these digital technologies and people can work together faster to get to the truth or make a discovery higher to build the workforce? These air opportunities? How do you guys view this new digital transformation? >>Well, I think there's there's a huge opportunities and just what we're doing with this symposium. We're filming this on one day, and it's going to stream live, and then the three of us, the four of us, can participate and chat with participants while it's going on. That's amazing. And I appreciate you, John, you bringing that to this this symposium, I think there's more and more that we can do from a Cal poly perspective with our pedagogy. So you know, linked to learn by doing in person will always be important to us. But we see virtual. We see partnerships like this can expand and enhance our ability and minimize the in person time, decrease the time to degree enhanced graduation rate, eliminate opportunity gaps or students that don't have the same advantages. S so I think the technological aspect of this is tremendous. Then on the up Skilling and Re Skilling, where employees air all over, they can be reached virtually then maybe they come to a location or really advanced technology allows them to get hands on virtually, or they come to that location and get it in a hybrid format. Eso I'm I'm very excited about the future and what we can do, and it's gonna be different with every university with every partnership. It's one. Size does not fit all. >>It's so many possibilities. Bond. I could almost imagine a social network that has a verified, you know, secure clearance. I can jump in, have a little cloak of secrecy and collaborate with the d o. D. Possibly in the future. But >>these are the >>kind of kind of crazy ideas that are needed. Are your thoughts on this whole digital transformation cross policy? >>I think technology is gonna be revolutionary here, John. You know, we're focusing lately on what we call digital engineering to quicken the pace off, delivering capability to warfighter. As an example, I think a I machine language all that's gonna have a major play and how we operate in the future. We're embracing five G technologies writing ability Thio zero latency or I o t More automation off the supply chain. That sort of thing, I think, uh, the future ahead of us is is very encouraging. Thing is gonna do a lot for for national defense on certainly the security of the country. >>Steve, your final thoughts. Space systems are systems, and they're connected to other systems that are connected to people. Your thoughts on this digital transformation opportunity >>Such a great question in such a fun, great challenge ahead of us. Um echoing are my colleague's sentiments. I would add to it. You know, a lot of this has I think we should do some focusing on campaigning so that people can feel comfortable to include the Congress to do things a little bit differently. Um, you know, we're not attuned to doing things fast. Uh, but the dramatic You know, the way technology is just going like crazy right now. I think it ties back Thio hoping Thio, convince some of our senior leaders on what I call both sides of the Potomac River that it's worth taking these gamble. We do need to take some of these things very way. And I'm very confident, confident and excited and comfortable. They're just gonna be a great time ahead and all for the better. >>You know, e talk about D. C. Because I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not a political person, but I always say less lawyers, more techies in Congress and Senate. So I was getting job when I say that. Sorry. Presidential. Go ahead. >>Yeah, I know. Just one other point. Uh, and and Steve's alluded to this in bonded as well. I mean, we've got to be less risk averse in these partnerships. That doesn't mean reckless, but we have to be less risk averse. And I would also I have a zoo. You talk about technology. I have to reflect on something that happened in, uh, you both talked a bit about Bill Britton and his impact on Cal Poly and what we're doing. But we were faced a few years ago of replacing a traditional data a data warehouse, data storage data center, and we partner with a W S. And thank goodness we had that in progress on it enhanced our bandwidth on our campus before Cove. It hit on with this partnership with the digital transformation hub. So there is a great example where, uh, we we had that going. That's not something we could have started. Oh, covitz hit. Let's flip that switch. And so we have to be proactive on. We also have thio not be risk averse and do some things differently. Eyes that that is really salvage the experience for for students. Right now, as things are flowing, well, we only have about 12% of our courses in person. Uh, those essential courses, uh, and just grateful for those partnerships that have talked about today. >>Yeah, and it's a shining example of how being agile, continuous operations, these air themes that expand into space and the next workforce needs to be built. Gentlemen, thank you. very much for sharing your insights. I know. Bang, You're gonna go into the defense side of space and your other sessions. Thank you, gentlemen, for your time for great session. Appreciate it. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. >>I'm John Furry with the Cube here in Palo Alto, California Covering and hosting with Cal Poly The Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE conversation. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome to a special CUBE conversation. Going to be going through digging a little bit into the history as well as talking about the modern storage environment. Happy to welcome back to the program. One of our CUBE alumni, someone even I actually known for many years, we worked together for a number of years. Scott Delandy is the Technical Director of Dell Storage in Data Protection Division, of course with Dell Technologies. Scott, great to see you. >> Hey, Stu, is so awesome to see you guys. Thank you for the opportunity to come and chat with you. Today we've got some really exciting stuff that we want to go through and I know you and I are probably going to have a little bit of an issue because I know when we get together, we always want to reminisce about, you know, the things that we've done and you know, the stuff that we've gotten to work on and as well as the cool stuff that's happening within technology today. So everybody buckle in, 'cause this is going to be cool. >> Unfortunately, you know, we're only a few miles away from each other in person, but of course, in these time we have to do it while remote, but we'll walk side by side for a little bit of memory lane. >> Yes absolutely. >> You know, as I hinted you and I both worked at a company that many people will remember, I always worry Scott, you know, the younger people, you know, will be like, EMC, you know, who are they? Back when I started at EMC in 2000, it was, you know, you talked about prime and deck and some of the other companies here in Massachusetts that had been great and then been acquired or things that happened. So you even had a little bit, you've had a longer tenure at what is now Dell, EMC, of course, you know, the mega merger a couple of years ago. So, talk about a little bit, you know, your journey and we're going to be talking about PowerMax, which of course is the continuation of the long legacy of this Symmetrics platform. >> Yeah, it's crazy. So, I hit 30 years, with EMC and now with, Dell back in July. So it's been, you know, an amazing three now going on three plus decades of being able to work with amazing technology, incredibly talented people within the organization, as well as some of the best and brightest when it comes to users and customers that actually deploy the technology. So it's been a tremendous ride and you know, I'm not planning on slowing down any time soon. Let's just keep going, man. >> Yeah. You talk about decades, Scott, it felt like 2020 has been a decade into itself. (Scott laughs) So, but we, we talk about that history, Symmetrics really created, you know, that, that standalone storage business, you know, created a lot of technologies that help drive a lot of businesses out there, bring us up to speed, PowerMax, you know, what, where does that business fit in their portfolio? Got any good stuff for us that's adoption here in 2020. >> Yeah. I mean, you, you kind of said it. So when Symmetrics was originally introduced, and that was kind of one of the older generations architectures of what we now know today as PowerMax, a lot has changed with respect to the platform in terms of the technology, the types of environments that we support, the data services that we provide. So it's been, you know, again, three plus decades of evolution in terms of the technology, but kind of the concept of external storage buying computer deploying compute, separate from the storage infrastructure, that was a, unheard of concept back in 1990 when we first introduced Symmetrics. So this, month September is actually the 30 year anniversary from when we actually first created, that platform and, you know, lots of things have changed, right? It started as, you know, a mainframe platform and then we evolved into mainframe and open systems. And then we started looking at the adoption of things like client server, and then environments became virtualized, and, you know, throughout that entire history Symmetrics and now PowerMax has really been, one of the core tenants in terms of leveraging the storage infrastructure to make a lot of those evolutions happen in terms of the types of applications, types of operating environments and just the entire ecosystem that goes around, supporting an organization's applications and helping them run their business. Now where you know, PowerMax comes into play today, it is that it's still considered, the gold standard when it comes to high end technology, providing the reliability, the automation, the data services, the rich functionality that has made that platform, the success that still continues to be. You know, one of the things that blows my mind is if you look at just the last earnings call from, you know, last month or a couple of months ago now, PowerMax business is still growing what grew for that quarter at a triple digit rate. And, you know, you think of, you know, you look at kind of what's happening from a technology standpoint and kind of, you know, external storage has been a pretty kind of stable segment in terms of the infrastructure business, but still being able to see that type of growth, and just talking to users and, you know, hearing how much they continue to love the platform, how they continue to, you know, rely on the types of things that we're able to provide for their applications, for their businesses, just the tremendous amount of trust that's been built up, with respect to that platform. It's cool to be a part of that, and to be able to hear those types of things from the people that actually use the products. >> Yeah. One of the big changes during my time, you know, in the portfolio there, Scott was of course the real emergence of server virtualization with VMware of course. I'd actually started working, you know, when I was at EMC with VMware ahead of the acquisition. And then once the acquisition happened, there was a long maturation of storage in VMware environment. We kind of look back and say, you know, we spent a decade trying to fix and make sure that, you know, storage and networking could work well in those virtual environments. So we've got VMworld going on, understand you've got some news on the update, you know, that constant cadence of always make sure that, the storage and the virtual environment, work very well together. So, why don't you bring us up to date on the new. >> Yeah, so it's pretty exciting. So we are announcing some new software capabilities for the platform, as well as some new hardware enhancements, but basically the three focuses are a tighter integration with VMware specifically, by introducing new support for vVols and then changing the way that we've been able to deploy, and support vVols within the platform. We're also introducing, new cloud capabilities. So being able to take your primary storage, your PowerMax system, and being able to extend that to leverage cloud deployments. So being able to consume the capacity a little bit differently, being able to support some real interesting use cases in terms of why somebody might want to take their primary tier one storage and connect that, and to be able to move some of those datasets into a cloud provider. And then the third part is some really innovative things happening around security, really around being able to provide additional support for data protection, especially for things like encrypted environment, while still being able to preserve the efficiencies that we've built into these storage platforms. So those are kind of the three big things there's lot of other what we would call giblets also associated with the launch. But those are really the big ticket items that I think people are talking about in terms of this release. >> Well, let's drill in a little bit there, Scott. So if we take the cloud piece, you know, their message, of course, we understand, you know, Dell and VMware have partnered very closely together. VMware very much is driving that, you know, hybrid and multicloud deployment out there. So when I talk to some of the product teams, is you know, that consistency of deployment, you know, say you take a BX rail with VMware VCF, that that similar environment, what I could do in a Google cloud or an Azure, how does the, those cloud solutions that you talk about fit into that overall discussion? >> Well, when you look at something like vVols, right? So, vVols is a little bit of a change or a newer way of being able to connect, into an external storage platform. And one of the things that we're trying to solve with vVols is being able to provide, better granularity in terms of the storage and the capacity being consumed at the individual VM level, but also being able to plug into the VMware ecosystem so that even though you have an external storage device connected into that environment, the way it gets managed, the way it gets provisioned, the way you set up replication, the way you recover things is completely transparent because all of that is handled, through the VMware software that sits above that. So it seems like a trivial exercise to just, you know, plug in a storage system and kind of away you go, but there's heavy lifting required in order to support that because you've got that in sometimes, in some cases make changes to the things that you're doing on the back end storage side, as well as work with the ecosystem provider in this case VMware. That have changes so that they can support some of the functionality and some of the rich data services that you're able to provide under the covers. Right. I'll give you a great example. So one of the things that we have the ability to do today is when we plug into a VMware environment with a PowerMax, we can support up to 64,000 devices, right? And you just try and get your head around that 64,000 devices. What does that even mean? It sounds like a lot, is that just marketing number and nobody would ever, you know, get to that level in terms of the number of devices that you would have to support. But one of the, kind of the technical challenges that we wanted to be able to solve is that when you deploy a virtual machine, each individual virtual machine consumes minimally three vVols in order to support that. And sometimes dozens and dozens of vVols especially if you're looking at doing things like copies or making snapshots of that. So the ability to scale to that large number of vVols and being able to support that, in a single storage system is very powerful for our users, especially folks out there that are looking to do, massive levels of consolidation where they really want to collapse the infrastructure down. They want to get as few physical things that they have to manage, which means you're spreading, you know, hundreds, thousands of these virtual machines into a single piece of infrastructure. So scale really does matter, especially for the types of users that would deploy a PowerMax in their environment, because of, again, the things that they're trying to do from an IT perspective, as well as the things that they need to do in order to be able to support their businesses. >> Yeah. Well, Scott, absolutely scale is such an important piece of the overall discussion today. It means different things to different people. It could mean you're massively scaling out like the hyperscalers, there's the edge discussion of, you know, small scale, but lots of copies. Talk to me about scale when it comes to those mission critical application. So, you know, I think about the solutions and data services that you're talking about, of course, you know, EMC, the Symmetrics really helped create that allegory with things like SRDF, Timefinder back in the day. So, what are you hearing today what's most important for critical application. >> So it really, excellent point. It really comes down to automation, right? Where, you know, you think of some of these, large environments, and we have users out there today that will have tens of thousands of virtual machines running in a single system. And you know, the ability to manage those, you can't find human beings that are, enough of them, as well as, you know ability to keep up with all the changes that happen in that environment. It's just something, that cannot physically be done in a manual way. So having that environment as automated as possible is really important, but it's not just automation, it's being able to automate at scale, right? So if I have 10,000 VMs and I want to go ahead and make a change in the environment, going through and making those VM by VM by VM is incredibly impractical. So being able to plug into the environment and being able to have hooks or APIs into the interfaces that sit on top of that, that's where a lot of the value comes in, right. It's really that automation, because again, tens of thousands of VMs, 64,000 devices. cool cool stuff, but you're not going to manage those individually. So how do you take that infrastructure and how do you literally make it, invisible to everybody around it so that when you have something that you want to do, just worry about the outcome, you don't worry about the individual steps required in order to get to that outcome. >> Yeah. What you said is so important, Scott, I love when PowerMax first came out, I got to talk with some of the engineers and, you know, the comment I made is, we've been talking about automation for decades. You know, Scott, you probably know better than most, when some of the previous generations, no automation would be discussed, but it's different. And what they really said is, it's so much about, you know, machine scale and being able to, we've gone beyond human scale. Humans could not keep up with the amount of changes and how we do things, and it's not just some scripts that you build. So there really is that, kind of machine learning built into what we're talking about. The other thing we've talked about for a long time and has always been critical in your space and you'd hit it up before, security. So, you know, give us the discussion of, you know, security in PowerMax, how that fits over in company's overall security stance. >> Well, I mean, at a very high level, I can confidently say that there is a heightened level of awareness around security, especially for the types of applications and the types of data, that we would typically support within these platforms. So it is very much a top of mind discussion. And, you know, one of the things that people are looking at in terms of how do I protect that data is it needs to be encrypted, right? And you know, we've been doing encryption for many many years. Right? We first introduced that through a feature called DARE which is Data At Rest Encryption, which would allow us at the individual drive level to encrypt it. So if that drive was ever physically removed either to be serviced, or, you know, someone just lost the drive, you wouldn't have to worry about that data being kind of out in the wild and being able to be accessed by somebody, because there was an encryption key. And unless you had that key, you could not access that data. And for many many years, that became a check in the box requirement. You cannot put your gear in my data center, unless I can assure that that data that's being stored on that system is encrypted, right. What's changing now, is just being able to encrypt the data on the array is no are good enough for some environments. The data needs to be encrypted from the host, from it being written by the application all the way through the server, the memory, the networks, everything, the controllers, right to the backend storage. So it's not just encrypting the data that's at rest, but encrypting the data end to end. Right. And one of the challenges that you have is that when you are writing an encrypted data, to a storage platform, especially in all flash storage platform, one of the data services that provides a lot of value is the ability to do data reduction, through a combination of things like data deduplication, and compression, and pattern recognition. There's all this kind of cool stuff that happens under the covers. So we will typically see a three to one, four to one data reduction for a particular application. But when that data is encrypted, you no longer get that efficiency it won't dedup, it won't compress. That kind of changes the sort of economic paradigm if you would, as you look at these external storage devices. So we've been talking to customers, we had one customer in particular come to us. They were a large insurance company. And one of their biggest customers came to them and said, our new policy is that all of our employee data, has to be encrypted, encrypted end to end. And so, as they looked at, well, how are we going to address that requirement? They quickly realized that in order to do that, they're going to need to increase the amount of storage that they have three to four X, because this data that they were getting really high deduplication and compression up against, they we're no longer going to get that. So what we did is we looked at well, what are ways that we can preserve the data efficiencies, the data reduction on the storage side, while still being able to meet the requirement to encrypt that data? So one of the new features that we're introducing within PowerMax is the ability to do end-to-end encryption while still being able to preserve the efficiencies. So I can turn encryption on all the way at the host level. I can write that data into the PowerMax, the PowerMax has access to the encryption keys that are on the host. It has the ability to decrypt that data in line. So there's no bump in the wire. There's no performance impact, apply the data reduction to it, and then re-encrypt the data as we're writing it out to the back. Yeah. So it's a hugely important feature for IT organizations, that are just now kind of getting their heads around this emerging requirement, that it's just not the stuff that's at rest that needs to be encrypted, it's the data end to end that's in that process. So big challenge there, and it really is one of the innovations that we're kind of pushing, in order to basically meet that requirement for this you know, set of users out there that see this as either something that they need today, or an evolving requirement where they want to put infrastructure in place. So if they're not doing it today, but they see maybe a couple of years down the line, that's something that they're going to need to do. They have the ability to enable that feature on the storage itself. >> Well, so Scott, 30 years of innovation, driving through this, you know, first of all, I hope if you haven't planned already, you need to get one of those Symmetrics refrigerators that I saw from back in the day, you know, wheel that out to the parking lot of where our tool's used to be, you know, a sign to the times that, you know, it used to be a bar for a few times now, you know, an organic sushi place, but you know, socially distanced gathering to celebrate, but give us a little look forward, you know, 30 years, I'm not resting on your laurels, always moving forward. So what would we expect to see, from PowerMax you know, going forward? >> So, two things, number one, the person that came up with that idea of the, what we internally refer to as the V fridge was an absolute genius. Just, you know, I would say that person was a genius. Second thing is in terms of, you know, what we see going forward is, I mean, one of the top of mind discussions for a lot of users is cloud, right? How do I have a cloud strategy? I know that I have applications that I am going to continue to need to run in my, what we'll call a quote unquote traditional data center, just because of the sensitivity of the application, just the predictability that I need around that. I need to basically control that and I have the economics in place where that becomes a really cost effective way of being able to support those types of workloads. But that said, there are other ways that I can consume storage infrastructure, that doesn't require me to go ahead and buy a storage system and kind of deploy it in a data center that I own. So users want to basically be able to explore that as an option, but they want to really understand what's the right use case for that. So one of the things that we're also introducing within PowerMax, and we expect there to be a lot of interests and we expect there to be definitely a solid uptake in terms of adoption, is the ability connect a PowerMax into a cloud, right? So this could be a Dell ECS platform. It could be Amazon S3, it could be Microsoft Azure. So there's a lot of flexibility in terms of the type of cloud connectivity that I could support. But as we looked at you know, what do we want to do? We don't want to to just, you know, connect into a cloud because that's doesn't mean anything, right? So we need to understand, you know, what's, the right use case, right? So when we talk to a lot of our users, they had their storage systems and what they were doing is they were using a lot of capacity for things like snapshots, right? Creating point in time copies of their applications, for a variety of reasons, doing those for database checkpoints, doing those to support testing and development environments, doing those because they wanted to make a copy, and do some sort of offline processing up against that. But very mature, very well established concept of making copies called snapshots. And when we talk to some users, they are, we have some out there that are very heavy consumers of snapshots. And in some cases, 25-30% of the storage that they're using, is being consumed for snapshots. And what the requirement was is, Hey, if I could free up that space by taking these snapshots that I create, then may be I'll use them within the first couple of days, couple of weeks, but then I want to keep those snaps, but I don't really need to keep them, on my primary tier one storage. Maybe if I could offload those to another type of storage, that's either more cost effective, allows me to consume it on demand, gives me the ability to free up those resources so that I could use this capacity that I already own for other things that are growing within the environment, that would be something that I would be interested in. So we, we heard that requirement and, you know, from a product management standpoint, when you look at developing new products, new capabilities, there's kind of three things that you always want to do. Number one, you want to identify what is the requirement? What is the use case? What is the problem that you're trying to solve? And you want to make sure you understand that really well. And you build a technology that's designed to do that in a very good and efficient way. So that's number one. Number two is you want to make it easy to deploy, right? We don't want to create an environment where you need, you know, it's very fragile and you need, you know, specialized skills to go in there and deploy it, it's literally firing up the application, putting in the IP addresses for the S3 storage that you want to connect to, and then away you go, your setup is done, really really simple setup. But the third thing, and really, you know, one of the more important things is, what's the user experience? right. Is this something bizarre? Is this managed as a vApp? Is this something that I have to, you know, click on another application, I have to fire up another screen? So you want to take the management of that data service, and you want to build it right into the platform itself. So with the cloud snapshot capability that we're introducing, that's exactly what we're doing. Where we've identified a solid use case that we knew a lot of customers out there are going to be very interested in understanding, what they can do with this. And what type of new flexibility it can provide. Number two, making it super simple to deploy. Matter of fact, it's included with the PowerMax. You buy the PowerMax, that software functionality, that capability is included with the platform. So there's not even an additional licensing charge required to do that. It's included with the storage. And number three, an ease of perspective. I create a snapshot. I have the option. Do I want that snapshot to live on the array that I created it? Or do I want to take that snapshot, and do I want to push it off onto that provider? Whether it's an ECS in my data center or whether it's something that's sitting over an Amazon AWS, but really easy to basically deploy. And what we plan to do is to take this capability that we've narrowed down to a very specific use case in order to make sure, that we have a clear idea of what the benefits are in terms of why users would want to deploy it, look at other things, because there are other opportunities that we have to expand that to as that capability matures, and as we start to see adoption really take off, >> Oh, Scott, great to catch up with you. Thanks so much for helping us, you know, look down memory lane, as well as a look at the new pieces today and where we're going for the future >> Stu, always a pleasure. Thanks a lot. Great to talk to you again, as always. And hopefully we can get to do this again sometime soon, and maybe a real kind of physical sort of setting, where you know, we're not separated by, you know, a couple of counties and having to go to the West coast and come back here, but maybe you know, actually in a similar physical location. >> Definitely. We all hope for that in the future that we can get everybody back together. In the meantime, we have all the virtual coverage, be sure to check out thecube.net Of course all theCUBE conversations as you can see linked on the front page. Well, it shows like VMworld that we alluded to. I'm Stu Miniman and thank you for watching. Thank you. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's The Cube, covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, hosted by Cal Poly. >> Everyone, welcome to this special virtual conference, the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 put on by Cal Poly with support from The Cube. I'm John Furey, your host and master of ceremony's got a great topic today, and this session is really the intersection of space and cybersecurity. This topic, and this conversation is a cybersecurity workforce development through public and private partnerships. And we've got a great lineup, we've Jeff Armstrong is the president of California Polytechnic State University, also known as Cal Poly. Jeffrey, thanks for jumping on and Bong Gumahad. The second, Director of C4ISR Division, and he's joining us from the Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for the acquisition and sustainment of Department of Defense, DOD, and of course Steve Jacques is Executive Director, founder National Security Space Association, and managing partner at Velos. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me for this session, we've got an hour of conversation, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So we've got a virtual event here, we've got an hour to have a great conversation, I'd love for you guys to do an opening statement on how you see the development through public and private partnerships around cybersecurity and space, Jeff, we'll start with you. >> Well, thanks very much, John, it's great to be on with all of you. On behalf of Cal Poly, welcome everyone. Educating the workforce of tomorrow is our mission at Cal Poly, whether that means traditional undergraduates, masters students, or increasingly, mid-career professionals looking to upskill or re-skill. Our signature pedagogy is learn by doing, which means that our graduates arrive at employers, ready day one with practical skills and experience. We have long thought of ourselves as lucky to be on California's beautiful central coast, but in recent years, as we've developed closer relationships with Vandenberg Air Force Base, hopefully the future permanent headquarters of the United States Space Command with Vandenberg and other regional partners, We have discovered that our location is even more advantageous than we thought. We're just 50 miles away from Vandenberg, a little closer than UC Santa Barbara and the base represents the Southern border of what we have come to think of as the central coast region. Cal Poly and Vandenberg Air Force Base have partnered to support regional economic development, to encourage the development of a commercial space port, to advocate for the space command headquarters coming to Vandenberg and other ventures. These partnerships have been possible because both parties stand to benefit. Vandenberg, by securing new streams of revenue, workforce, and local supply chain and Cal Poly by helping to grow local jobs for graduates, internship opportunities for students and research and entrepreneurship opportunities for faculty and staff. Crucially, what's good for Vandenberg Air Force Base and for Cal Poly is also good for the central coast and the U.S., creating new head of household jobs, infrastructure, and opportunity. Our goal is that these new jobs bring more diversity and sustainability for the region. This regional economic development has taken on a life of its own, spawning a new nonprofit called REACH which coordinates development efforts from Vandenberg Air Force Base in the South to Camp Roberts in the North. Another factor that has facilitated our relationship with Vandenberg Air Force Base is that we have some of the same friends. For example, Northrop Grumman has as long been an important defense contractor and an important partner to Cal Poly, funding scholarships in facilities that have allowed us to stay current with technology in it to attract highly qualified students for whom Cal Poly's costs would otherwise be prohibitive. For almost 20 years, Northrop Grumman has funded scholarships for Cal Poly students. This year, they're funding 64 scholarships, some directly in our College of Engineering and most through our Cal Poly Scholars Program. Cal Poly scholars support both incoming freshmen and transfer students. These are especially important, 'cause it allows us to provide additional support and opportunities to a group of students who are mostly first generation, low income and underrepresented, and who otherwise might not choose to attend Cal Poly. They also allow us to recruit from partner high schools with large populations of underrepresented minority students, including the Fortune High School in Elk Grove, which we developed a deep and lasting connection. We know that the best work is done by balanced teams that include multiple and diverse perspectives. These scholarships help us achieve that goal and I'm sure you know Northrop Grumman was recently awarded a very large contract to modernize the U.S. ICBM armory with some of the work being done at Vandenberg Air Force Base, thus supporting the local economy and protecting... Protecting our efforts in space requires partnerships in the digital realm. Cal Poly has partnered with many private companies such as AWS. Our partnerships with Amazon Web Services has enabled us to train our students with next generation cloud engineering skills, in part, through our jointly created digital transformation hub. Another partnership example is among Cal Poly's California Cyber Security Institute College of Engineering and the California National Guard. This partnership is focused on preparing a cyber-ready workforce, by providing faculty and students with a hands on research and learning environment side by side with military law enforcement professionals and cyber experts. We also have a long standing partnership with PG&E most recently focused on workforce development and redevelopment. Many of our graduates do indeed go on to careers in aerospace and defense industry. As a rough approximation, more than 4,500 Cal Poly graduates list aerospace or defense as their employment sector on LinkedIn. And it's not just our engineers in computer sciences. When I was speaking to our fellow panelists not too long ago, speaking to Bong, we learned that Rachel Sims, one of our liberal arts majors is working in his office, so shout out to you, Rachel. And then finally, of course, some of our graduates soar to extraordinary heights, such as Commander Victor Glover, who will be heading to the International Space Station later this year. As I close, all of which is to say that we're deeply committed to workforce development and redevelopment, that we understand the value of public-private partnerships, and that we're eager to find new ways in which to benefit everyone from this further cooperation. So we're committed to the region, the state and the nation, in our past efforts in space, cyber security and links to our partners at, as I indicated, aerospace industry and governmental partners provides a unique position for us to move forward in the interface of space and cyber security. Thank you so much, John. >> President Armstrong, thank you very much for the comments and congratulations to Cal Poly for being on the forefront of innovation and really taking a unique, progressive view and want to tip a hat to you guys over there, thank you very much for those comments, appreciate it. Bong, Department of Defense. Exciting, you've got to defend the nation, space is global, your opening statement. >> Yes, sir, thanks John, appreciate that. Thank you everybody, I'm honored to be in this panel along with Preston Armstrong of Cal Poly and my longtime friend and colleague Steve Jacques of the National Security Space Association to discuss a very important topic of a cybersecurity workforce development as President Armstrong alluded to. I'll tell you, both of these organizations, Cal Poly and the NSSA have done and continue to do an exceptional job at finding talent, recruiting them and training current and future leaders and technical professionals that we vitally need for our nation's growing space programs, as well as our collective national security. Earlier today, during session three, I, along with my colleague, Chris Samson discussed space cyber security and how the space domain is changing the landscape of future conflicts. I discussed the rapid emergence of commercial space with the proliferation of hundreds, if not thousands of satellites, providing a variety of services including communications, allowing for global internet connectivity, as one example. Within DOD, we continued to look at how we can leverage this opportunity. I'll tell you, one of the enabling technologies, is the use of small satellites, which are inherently cheaper and perhaps more flexible than the traditional bigger systems that we have historically used and employed for DOD. Certainly not lost on me is the fact that Cal Poly pioneered CubeSats 28, 27 years ago, and they set a standard for the use of these systems today. So they saw the value and benefit gained way ahead of everybody else it seems. And Cal Poly's focus on training and education is commendable. I'm especially impressed by the efforts of another of Steven's colleague, the current CIO, Mr. Bill Britton, with his high energy push to attract the next generation of innovators. Earlier this year, I had planned on participating in this year's cyber innovation challenge in June, Oops, Cal Poly hosts California middle, and high school students, and challenge them with situations to test their cyber knowledge. I tell you, I wish I had that kind of opportunity when I was a kid, unfortunately, the pandemic changed the plan, but I truly look forward to future events such as these, to participate in. Now, I want to recognize my good friend, Steve Jacques, whom I've known for perhaps too long of a time here, over two decades or so, who was an acknowledged space expert and personally I've truly applaud him for having the foresight a few years back to form the National Security Space Association to help the entire space enterprise navigate through not only technology, but policy issues and challenges and paved the way for operationalizing space. Space, it certainly was fortifying domain, it's not a secret anymore, and while it is a unique area, it shares a lot of common traits with the other domains, such as land, air, and sea, obviously all are strategically important to the defense of the United States. In conflict, they will all be contested and therefore they all need to be defended. One domain alone will not win future conflicts, and in a joint operation, we must succeed in all. So defending space is critical, as critical as to defending our other operational domains. Funny, space is the only sanctuary available only to the government. Increasingly as I discussed in a previous session, commercial space is taking the lead in a lot of different areas, including R&D, the so-called new space. So cybersecurity threat is even more demanding and even more challenging. The U.S. considers and futhered access to and freedom to operate in space, vital to advancing security, economic prosperity and scientific knowledge of the country, thus making cyberspace an inseparable component of America's financial, social government and political life. We stood up US Space Force a year ago or so as the newest military service. Like the other services, its mission is to organize, train and equip space forces in order to protect U.S. and allied interest in space and to provide spacecape builders who joined force. Imagine combining that U.S. Space Force with the U.S. Cyber Command to unify the direction of the space and cyberspace operation, strengthen DOD capabilities and integrate and bolster a DOD cyber experience. Now, of course, to enable all of this requires a trained and professional cadre of cyber security experts, combining a good mix of policy, as well as a high technical skill set. Much like we're seeing in STEM, we need to attract more people to this growing field. Now, the DOD has recognized the importance to the cybersecurity workforce, and we have implemented policies to encourage its growth. Back in 2013, the Deputy Secretary of Defense signed a DOD Cyberspace Workforce Strategy, to create a comprehensive, well-equipped cyber security team to respond to national security concerns. Now, this strategy also created a program that encourages collaboration between the DOD and private sector employees. We call this the Cyber Information Technology Exchange program, or CITE that it's an exchange program, which is very interesting in which a private sector employee can naturally work for the DOD in a cyber security position that spans across multiple mission critical areas, important to the DOD. A key responsibility of the cyber security community is military leaders, unrelated threats, and the cyber security actions we need to have to defeat these threats. We talked about rapid acquisition, agile business processes and practices to speed up innovation, likewise, cyber security must keep up with this challenge. So cyber security needs to be right there with the challenges and changes, and this requires exceptional personnel. We need to attract talent, invest in the people now to grow a robust cybersecurity workforce for the future. I look forward to the panel discussion, John, thank you. >> Thank you so much, Bob for those comments and, you know, new challenges or new opportunities and new possibilities and freedom to operate in space is critical, thank you for those comments, looking forward to chatting further. Steve Jacques, Executive Director of NSSA, you're up, opening statement. >> Thank you, John and echoing Bongs, thanks to Cal Poly for pulling this important event together and frankly, for allowing the National Security Space Association be a part of it. Likewise, on behalf of the association, I'm delighted and honored to be on this panel of President Armstrong, along with my friend and colleague, Bong Gumahad. Something for you all to know about Bong, he spent the first 20 years of his career in the Air Force doing space programs. He then went into industry for several years and then came back into government to serve, very few people do that. So Bong, on behalf of the space community, we thank you for your lifelong devotion to service to our nation, we really appreciate that. And I also echo a Bong shout out to that guy, Bill Britton. who's been a long time co-conspirator of ours for a long time, and you're doing great work there in the cyber program at Cal Poly, Bill, keep it up. But Professor Armstrong, keep a close eye on him. (laughter) I would like to offer a little extra context to the great comments made by President Armstrong and Bong. And in our view, the timing of this conference really could not be any better. We all recently reflected again on that tragic 9/11 surprise attack on our homeland and it's an appropriate time we think to take pause. While a percentage of you in the audience here weren't even born or were babies then, for the most of us, it still feels like yesterday. And moreover, a tragedy like 9/11 has taught us a lot to include, to be more vigilant, always keep our collective eyes and ears open, to include those "eyes and ears from space," making sure nothing like this ever happens again. So this conference is a key aspect, protecting our nation requires we work in a cyber secure environment at all times. But you know, the fascinating thing about space systems is we can't see 'em. Now sure, we see space launches, man, there's nothing more invigorating than that. But after launch they become invisible, so what are they really doing up there? What are they doing to enable our quality of life in the United States and in the world? Well to illustrate, I'd like to paraphrase elements of an article in Forbes magazine, by Bongs and my good friend, Chuck Beames, Chuck is a space guy, actually had Bongs job a few years in the Pentagon. He's now Chairman and Chief Strategy Officer at York Space Systems and in his spare time, he's Chairman of the Small Satellites. Chuck speaks in words that everyone can understand, so I'd like to give you some of his words out of his article, paraphrase somewhat, so these are Chuck's words. "Let's talk about average Joe and plain Jane. "Before heading to the airport for a business trip "to New York city, Joe checks the weather forecast, "informed by NOAA's weather satellites, "to see what to pack for the trip. "He then calls an Uber, that space app everybody uses, "it matches riders with drivers via GPS, "to take him to the airport. "So Joe has launched in the airport, "unbeknownst to him, his organic lunch is made "with the help of precision farming "made possible to optimize the irrigation and fertilization "with remote spectral sensing coming from space and GPS. "On the plane, the pilot navigates around weather, "aided by GPS and NOAA's weather satellites "and Joe makes his meeting on time "to join his New York colleagues in a video call "with a key customer in Singapore, "made possible by telecommunication satellites. "En route to his next meeting, "Joe receives notice changing the location of the meeting "to the other side of town. "So he calmly tells Siri to adjust the destination "and his satellite-guided Google maps redirect him "to the new location. "That evening, Joe watches the news broadcast via satellite, "report details of meeting among world leaders, "discussing the developing crisis in Syria. "As it turns out various forms of "'remotely sensed information' collected from satellites "indicate that yet another banned chemical weapon "may have been used on its own people. "Before going to bed, Joe decides to call his parents "and congratulate them for their wedding anniversary "as they cruise across the Atlantic, "made possible again by communication satellites "and Joe's parents can enjoy the call "without even wondering how it happened. "The next morning back home, "Joe's wife, Jane is involved in a car accident. "Her vehicle skids off the road, she's knocked unconscious, "but because of her satellite equipped OnStar system, "the crash is detected immediately, "and first responders show up on the scene in time. "Joe receives the news, books an early trip home, "sends flowers to his wife "as he orders another Uber to the airport. "Over that 24 hours, "Joe and Jane used space system applications "for nearly every part of their day. "Imagine the consequences if at any point "they were somehow denied these services, "whether they be by natural causes or a foreign hostility. "In each of these satellite applications used in this case, "were initially developed for military purposes "and continued to be, but also have remarkable application "on our way of life, just many people just don't know that." So ladies and gentlemen, now you know, thanks to Chuck Beames. Well, the United States has a proud heritage of being the world's leading space-faring nation. Dating back to the Eisenhower and Kennedy years, today, we have mature and robust systems operating from space, providing overhead reconnaissance to "watch and listen," provide missile warning, communications, positioning, navigation, and timing from our GPS system, much of which you heard in Lieutenant General JT Thomson's earlier speech. These systems are not only integral to our national security, but also to our quality of life. As Chuck told us, we simply no longer can live without these systems as a nation and for that matter, as a world. But over the years, adversaries like China, Russia and other countries have come to realize the value of space systems and are aggressively playing catch up while also pursuing capabilities that will challenge our systems. As many of you know, in 2007, China demonstrated its ASAT system by actually shooting down one of its own satellites and has been aggressively developing counterspace systems to disrupt ours. So in a heavily congested space environment, our systems are now being contested like never before and will continue to be. Well, as a Bong mentioned, the United States have responded to these changing threats. In addition to adding ways to protect our system, the administration and the Congress recently created the United States Space Force and the operational United States Space Command, the latter of which you heard President Armstrong and other Californians hope is going to be located at Vandenberg Air Force Base. Combined with our intelligence community, today we have focused military and civilian leadership now in space, and that's a very, very good thing. Commensurately on the industry side, we did create the National Security Space Association, devoted solely to supporting the National Security Space Enterprise. We're based here in the DC area, but we have arms and legs across the country and we are loaded with extraordinary talent in scores of former government executives. So NSSA is joined at the hip with our government customers to serve and to support. We're busy with a multitude of activities underway, ranging from a number of thought-provoking policy papers, our recurring spacetime webcasts, supporting Congress's space power caucus, and other main serious efforts. Check us out at nssaspace.org. One of our strategic priorities and central to today's events is to actively promote and nurture the workforce development, just like Cal-Poly. We will work with our U.S. government customers, industry leaders, and academia to attract and recruit students to join the space world, whether in government or industry, and to assist in mentoring and training as their careers progress. On that point, we're delighted to be working with Cal Poly as we hopefully will undertake a new pilot program with them very soon. So students stay tuned, something I can tell you, space is really cool. While our nation's satellite systems are technical and complex, our nation's government and industry workforce is highly diverse, with a combination of engineers, physicists and mathematicians, but also with a large non-technical expertise as well. Think about how government gets these systems designed, manufactured, launching into orbit and operating. They do this via contracts with our aerospace industry, requiring talents across the board, from cost estimating, cost analysis, budgeting, procurement, legal, and many other support tasks that are integral to the mission. Many thousands of people work in the space workforce, tens of billions of dollars every year. This is really cool stuff and no matter what your education background, a great career to be part of. In summary, as Bong had mentioned as well, there's a great deal of exciting challenges ahead. We will see a new renaissance in space in the years ahead and in some cases it's already begun. Billionaires like Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Branson, are in the game, stimulating new ideas and business models. Other private investors and startup companies, space companies are now coming in from all angles. The exponential advancement of technology and micro electronics now allows a potential for a plethora of small sat systems to possibly replace older satellites, the size of a Greyhound bus. It's getting better by the day and central to this conference, cybersecurity is paramount to our nation's critical infrastructure in space. So once again, thanks very much and I look forward to the further conversation. >> Steve, thank you very much. Space is cool, it's relevant, but it's important as you pointed out in your awesome story about how it impacts our life every day so I really appreciate that great story I'm glad you took the time to share that. You forgot the part about the drone coming over in the crime scene and, you know, mapping it out for you, but we'll add that to the story later, great stuff. My first question is, let's get into the conversations, because I think this is super important. President Armstrong, I'd like you to talk about some of the points that was teased out by Bong and Steve. One in particular is the comment around how military research was important in developing all these capabilities, which is impacting all of our lives through that story. It was the military research that has enabled a generation and generation of value for consumers. This is kind of this workforce conversation, there are opportunities now with research and grants, and this is a funding of innovation that is highly accelerated, it's happening very quickly. Can you comment on how research and the partnerships to get that funding into the universities is critical? >> Yeah, I really appreciate that and appreciate the comments of my colleagues. And it really boils down to me to partnerships, public-private partnerships, you have mentioned Northrop Grumman, but we have partnerships with Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon, Space X, JPL, also member of an organization called Business Higher Education Forum, which brings together university presidents and CEOs of companies. There's been focused on cybersecurity and data science and I hope that we can spill into cybersecurity and space. But those partnerships in the past have really brought a lot forward. At Cal Poly, as mentioned, we've been involved with CubeSat, we've have some secure work, and we want to plan to do more of that in the future. Those partnerships are essential, not only for getting the R&D done, but also the students, the faculty, whether they're master's or undergraduate can be involved with that work, they get that real life experience, whether it's on campus or virtually now during COVID or at the location with the partner, whether it may be governmental or industry, and then they're even better equipped to hit the ground running. And of course we'd love to see more of our students graduate with clearance so that they could do some of that secure work as well. So these partnerships are absolutely critical and it's also in the context of trying to bring the best and the brightest in all demographics of California and the U.S. into this field, to really be successful. So these partnerships are essential and our goal is to grow them just like I know our other colleagues in the CSU and the UC are planning to do. >> You know, just as my age I've seen, I grew up in the eighties and in college and they're in that system's generation and the generation before me, they really kind of pioneered the space that spawned the computer revolution. I mean, you look at these key inflection points in our lives, they were really funded through these kinds of real deep research. Bong, talk about that because, you know, we're living in an age of cloud and Bezos was mentioned, Elon Musk, Sir Richard Branson, you got new ideas coming in from the outside, you have an accelerated clock now in terms of the innovation cycles and so you got to react differently, you guys have programs to go outside of the defense department, how important is this because the workforce that are in schools and/or folks re-skilling are out there and you've been on both sides of the table, so share your thoughts. >> No, thanks Johnny, thanks for the opportunity to respond to, and that's what, you know, you hit on the nose back in the 80's, R&D and space especially was dominated by government funding, contracts and so on, but things have changed as Steve pointed out, allow these commercial entities funded by billionaires are coming out of the woodwork, funding R&D so they're taking the lead, so what we can do within the DOD in government is truly take advantage of the work they've done. And since they're, you know, paving the way to new approaches and new way of doing things and I think we can certainly learn from that and leverage off of that, saves us money from an R&D standpoint, while benefiting from the product that they deliver. You know, within DOD, talking about workforce development, you know, we have prioritized and we have policies now to attract and retain the talent we need. I had the folks do some research and it looks like from a cybersecurity or workforce standpoint, a recent study done, I think last year in 2019, found that the cyber security workforce gap in U.S. is nearing half a million people, even though it is a growing industry. So the pipeline needs to be strengthened, getting people through, you know, starting young and through college, like Professor Armstrong indicated because we're going to need them to be in place, you know, in a period of about maybe a decade or so. On top of that, of course, is the continuing issue we have with the gap with STEM students. We can't afford not have expertise in place to support all the things we're doing within DoD, not only DoD but the commercial side as well, thank you. >> How's the gap get filled, I mean, this is, again, you've got cybersecurity, I mean, with space it's a whole other kind of surface area if you will, it's not really surface area, but it is an IOT device if you think about it, but it does have the same challenges, that's kind of current and progressive with cybersecurity. Where's the gap get filled, Steve or President Armstrong, I mean, how do you solve the problem and address this gap in the workforce? What are some solutions and what approaches do we need to put in place? >> Steve, go ahead., I'll follow up. >> Okay, thanks, I'll let you correct me. (laughter) It's a really good question, and the way I would approach it is to focus on it holistically and to acknowledge it upfront and it comes with our teaching, et cetera, across the board. And from an industry perspective, I mean, we see it, we've got to have secure systems in everything we do, and promoting this and getting students at early ages and mentoring them and throwing internships at them is so paramount to the whole cycle. And that's kind of, it really takes a focused attention and we continue to use the word focus from an NSSA perspective. We know the challenges that are out there. There are such talented people in the workforce, on the government side, but not nearly enough of them and likewise on the industry side, we could use more as well, but when you get down to it, you know, we can connect dots, you know, the aspects that Professor Armstrong talked about earlier to where you continue to work partnerships as much as you possibly can. We hope to be a part of that network, that ecosystem if you will, of taking common objectives and working together to kind of make these things happen and to bring the power, not just of one or two companies, but of our entire membership thereabout. >> President Armstrong-- >> Yeah, I would also add it again, it's back to the partnerships that I talked about earlier, one of our partners is high schools and schools Fortune, Margaret Fortune, who worked in a couple of administrations in California across party lines and education, their fifth graders all visit Cal Poly, and visit our learned-by-doing lab. And you've got to get students interested in STEM at an early age. We also need the partnerships, the scholarships, the financial aid, so the students can graduate with minimal to no debt to really hit the ground running and that's exacerbated and really stress now with this COVID induced recession. California supports higher education at a higher rate than most states in the nation, but that has brought this year for reasons all understand due to COVID. And so our partnerships, our creativity, and making sure that we help those that need the most help financially, that's really key because the gaps are huge. As my colleagues indicated, you know, half a million jobs and I need you to look at the students that are in the pipeline, we've got to enhance that. And the placement rates are amazing once the students get to a place like Cal Poly or some of our other amazing CSU and UC campuses, placement rates are like 94%. Many of our engineers, they have jobs lined up a year before they graduate. So it's just going to take a key partnerships working together and that continued partnership with government local, of course, our state, the CSU, and partners like we have here today, both Steve and Bong so partnerships is the thing. >> You know, that's a great point-- >> I could add, >> Okay go ahead. >> All right, you know, the collaboration with universities is one that we put on lot of emphasis here, and it may not be well known fact, but just an example of national security, the AUC is a national centers of academic excellence in cyber defense works with over 270 colleges and universities across the United States to educate and certify future cyber first responders as an example. So that's vibrant and healthy and something that we ought to take advantage of. >> Well, I got the brain trust here on this topic. I want to get your thoughts on this one point, 'cause I'd like to define, you know, what is a public-private partnership because the theme that's coming out of the symposium is the script has been flipped, it's a modern era, things are accelerated, you've got security, so you've got all of these things kind of happenning it's a modern approach and you're seeing a digital transformation play out all over the world in business and in the public sector. So what is a modern public-private partnership and what does it look like today because people are learning differently. COVID has pointed out, which is that we're seeing right now, how people, the progressions of knowledge and learning, truth, it's all changing. How do you guys view the modern version of public-private partnership and some examples and some proof points, can you guys share that? We'll start with you, Professor Armstrong. >> Yeah, as I indicated earlier, we've had, and I could give other examples, but Northrop Grumman, they helped us with a cyber lab many years ago that is maintained directly, the software, the connection outside it's its own unit so the students can learn to hack, they can learn to penetrate defenses and I know that that has already had some considerations of space, but that's a benefit to both parties. So a good public-private partnership has benefits to both entities and the common factor for universities with a lot of these partnerships is the talent. The talent that is needed, what we've been working on for years of, you know, the undergraduate or master's or PhD programs, but now it's also spilling into upskilling and reskilling, as jobs, you know, folks who are in jobs today that didn't exist two years, three years, five years ago, but it also spills into other aspects that can expand even more. We're very fortunate we have land, there's opportunities, we have ONE Tech project. We are expanding our tech park, I think we'll see opportunities for that and it'll be adjusted due to the virtual world that we're all learning more and more about it, which we were in before COVID. But I also think that that person to person is going to be important, I want to make sure that I'm driving across a bridge or that satellite's being launched by the engineer that's had at least some in person training to do that in that experience, especially as a first time freshman coming on campus, getting that experience, expanding it as an adult, and we're going to need those public-private partnerships in order to continue to fund those at a level that is at the excellence we need for these STEM and engineering fields. >> It's interesting people and technology can work together and these partnerships are the new way. Bongs too with reaction to the modern version of what a public successful private partnership looks like. >> If I could jump in John, I think, you know, historically DOD's had a high bar to overcome if you will, in terms of getting rapid... pulling in new companies, miss the fall if you will, and not rely heavily on the usual suspects, of vendors and the like, and I think the DOD has done a good job over the last couple of years of trying to reduce that burden and working with us, you know, the Air Force, I think they're pioneering this idea around pitch days, where companies come in, do a two-hour pitch and immediately notified of, you know, of an a award, without having to wait a long time to get feedback on the quality of the product and so on. So I think we're trying to do our best to strengthen that partnership with companies outside of the main group of people that we typically use. >> Steve, any reaction, any comment to add? >> Yeah, I would add a couple and these are very excellent thoughts. It's about taking a little gamble by coming out of your comfort zone, you know, the world that Bong and I, Bong lives in and I used to live in the past, has been quite structured. It's really about, we know what the threat is, we need to go fix it, we'll design as if as we go make it happen, we'll fly it. Life is so much more complicated than that and so it's really, to me, I mean, you take an example of the pitch days of Bong talks about, I think taking a gamble by attempting to just do a lot of pilot programs, work the trust factor between government folks and the industry folks and academia, because we are all in this together in a lot of ways. For example, I mean, we just sent a paper to the white house at their request about, you know, what would we do from a workforce development perspective and we hope to embellish on this over time once the initiative matures, but we have a piece of it for example, is a thing we call "clear for success," getting back to president Armstrong's comments so at a collegiate level, you know, high, high, high quality folks are in high demand. So why don't we put together a program that grabs kids in their underclass years, identifies folks that are interested in doing something like this, get them scholarships, have a job waiting for them that they're contracted for before they graduate, and when they graduate, they walk with an SCI clearance. We believe that can be done, so that's an example of ways in which public-private partnerships can happen to where you now have a talented kid ready to go on day one. We think those kinds of things can happen, it just gets back down to being focused on specific initiatives, giving them a chance and run as many pilot programs as you can, like pitch days. >> That's a great point, it's a good segue. Go ahead, President Armstrong. >> I just want to jump in and echo both the Bong and Steve's comments, but Steve that, you know, your point of, you know our graduates, we consider them ready day one, well they need to be ready day one and ready to go secure. We totally support that and love to follow up offline with you on that. That's exciting and needed, very much needed more of it, some of it's happening, but we certainly have been thinking a lot about that and making some plans. >> And that's a great example, a good segue. My next question is kind of re-imagining these workflows is kind of breaking down the old way and bringing in kind of the new way, accelerate all kinds of new things. There are creative ways to address this workforce issue and this is the next topic, how can we employ new creative solutions because let's face it, you know, it's not the days of get your engineering degree and go interview for a job and then get slotted in and get the intern, you know, the programs and you'd matriculate through the system. This is multiple disciplines, cybersecurity points at that. You could be smart in math and have a degree in anthropology and be one of the best cyber talents on the planet. So this is a new, new world, what are some creative approaches that's going to work for you? >> Alright, good job, one of the things, I think that's a challenge to us is, you know, somehow we got me working for, with the government, sexy right? You know, part of the challenge we have is attracting the right level of skill sets and personnel but, you know, we're competing, oftentimes, with the commercial side, the gaming industry as examples is a big deal. And those are the same talents we need to support a lot of the programs that we have in DOD. So somehow we have do a better job to Steve's point about making the work within DOD, within the government, something that they would be interested early on. So attract them early, you know, I could not talk about Cal Poly's challenge program that they were going to have in June inviting high school kids really excited about the whole idea of space and cyber security and so on. Those are some of the things that I think we have to do and continue to do over the course of the next several years. >> Awesome, any other creative approaches that you guys see working or might be an idea, or just to kind of stoke the ideation out there? Internships, obviously internships are known, but like, there's got to be new ways. >> Alright, I think you can take what Steve was talking about earlier, getting students in high school and aligning them sometimes at first internship, not just between the freshman and sophomore year, but before they enter Cal Poly per se and they're involved. So I think that's absolutely key, getting them involved in many other ways. We have an example of upskilling or work redevelopment here in the central coast, PG&E Diablo nuclear plant that is going to decommission in around 2024. And so we have a ongoing partnership to work and reposition those employees for the future. So that's, you know, engineering and beyond but think about that just in the manner that you were talking about. So the upskilling and reskilling, and I think that's where, you know, we were talking about that Purdue University, other California universities have been dealing with online programs before COVID, and now with COVID so many more Faculty were pushed into that area, there's going to be a much more going and talk about workforce development in upskilling and reskilling, the amount of training and education of our faculty across the country in virtual and delivery has been huge. So there's always a silver linings in the cloud. >> I want to get your guys' thoughts on one final question as we end the segment, and we've seen on the commercial side with cloud computing on these highly accelerated environments where, you know, SAS business model subscription, and that's on the business side, but one of the things that's clear in this trend is technology and people work together and technology augments the people components. So I'd love to get your thoughts as we look at a world now, we're living in COVID, and Cal Poly, you guys have remote learning right now, it's at the infancy, it's a whole new disruption, if you will, but also an opportunity enable new ways to encollaborate, So if you look at people and technology, can you guys share your view and vision on how communities can be developed, how these digital technologies and people can work together faster to get to the truth or make a discovery, hire, develop the workforce, these are opportunities, how do you guys view this new digital transformation? >> Well, I think there's huge opportunities and just what we're doing with this symposium, we're filming this on Monday and it's going to stream live and then the three of us, the four of us can participate and chat with participants while it's going on. That's amazing and I appreciate you, John, you bringing that to this symposium. I think there's more and more that we can do. From a Cal Poly perspective, with our pedagogy so, you know, linked to learn by doing in-person will always be important to us, but we see virtual, we see partnerships like this, can expand and enhance our ability and minimize the in-person time, decrease the time to degree, enhance graduation rate, eliminate opportunity gaps for students that don't have the same advantages. So I think the technological aspect of this is tremendous. Then on the upskilling and reskilling, where employees are all over, they can re be reached virtually, and then maybe they come to a location or really advanced technology allows them to get hands on virtually, or they come to that location and get it in a hybrid format. So I'm very excited about the future and what we can do, and it's going to be different with every university, with every partnership. It's one size does not fit all, There's so many possibilities, Bong, I can almost imagine that social network that has a verified, you know, secure clearance. I can jump in, and have a little cloak of secrecy and collaborate with the DOD possibly in the future. But these are the kind of crazy ideas that are needed, your thoughts on this whole digital transformation cross-pollination. >> I think technology is going to be revolutionary here, John, you know, we're focusing lately on what we call visual engineering to quicken the pace of the delivery capability to warfighter as an example, I think AI, Machine Language, all that's going to have a major play in how we operate in the future. We're embracing 5G technologies, and the ability for zero latency, more IOT, more automation of the supply chain, that sort of thing, I think the future ahead of us is very encouraging, I think it's going to do a lot for national defense, and certainly the security of the country. >> Steve, your final thoughts, space systems are systems, and they're connected to other systems that are connected to people, your thoughts on this digital transformation opportunity. >> Such a great question and such a fun, great challenge ahead of us. Echoing my colleagues sentiments, I would add to it, you know, a lot of this has, I think we should do some focusing on campaigning so that people can feel comfortable to include the Congress to do things a little bit differently. You know, we're not attuned to doing things fast, but the dramatic, you know, the way technology is just going like crazy right now, I think it ties back to, hoping to convince some of our senior leaders and what I call both sides of the Potomac river, that it's worth taking this gamble, we do need to take some of these things you know, in a very proactive way. And I'm very confident and excited and comfortable that this is going to be a great time ahead and all for the better. >> You know, I always think of myself when I talk about DC 'cause I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a political person, but I always say less lawyers, more techies than in Congress and Senate, so (laughter)I always get in trouble when I say that. Sorry, President Armstrong, go ahead. >> Yeah, no, just one other point and Steve's alluded to this and Bong did as well, I mean, we've got to be less risk averse in these partnerships, that doesn't mean reckless, but we have to be less risk averse. And also, as you talk about technology, I have to reflect on something that happened and you both talked a bit about Bill Britton and his impact on Cal Poly and what we're doing. But we were faced a few years ago of replacing traditional data, a data warehouse, data storage, data center and we partnered with AWS and thank goodness, we had that in progress and it enhanced our bandwidth on our campus before COVID hit, and with this partnership with the digital transformation hub, so there's a great example where we had that going. That's not something we could have started, "Oh COVID hit, let's flip that switch." And so we have to be proactive and we also have to not be risk-averse and do some things differently. That has really salvaged the experience for our students right now, as things are flowing well. We only have about 12% of our courses in person, those essential courses and I'm just grateful for those partnerships that I have talked about today. >> And it's a shining example of how being agile, continuous operations, these are themes that expand the space and the next workforce needs to be built. Gentlemen, thank you very much for sharing your insights, I know Bong, you're going to go into the defense side of space in your other sessions. Thank you gentlemen, for your time, for a great session, I appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you gentlemen. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, thank you all. I'm John Furey with The Cube here in Palo Alto, California covering and hosting with Cal Poly, the Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, thanks for watching. (bright atmospheric music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE covering space in cybersecurity symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to the space and cybersecurity symposium, 2020 hosted by Cal Poly where the intersection of space and security are coming together. I'm John Furrier, your host with theCUBE here in California. I want to welcome our featured guest, Lieutenant General, John F. Thompson with the United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. That's the topic of this session. And of course he's the commander of the space and missile system center in Los Angeles Air Force Base. Also heading up Space Force. General, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate to you kicking this off. Welcome to the symposium. >> Hey, so thank you very much, John, for that very kind introduction. Also very much thank you to Cal Poly for this opportunity to speak to this audience today. Also a special shout out to one of the organizers, Dustin Debrun, for all of his work, helping get us to this point. Ladies and gentlemen as a John mentioned, I'm JT Thompson. I lead the 6,000 men and women of the United States Space Force's Space and Missile System Center, which is headquartered here at Los Angeles Air Force Base and El Segundo. If you're not quite sure where that's at, it's about a mile and a half from LAX. This is our main operating location, but we do have a number of other operating locations around the country. We're about 500 people at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and an about another 500 people on the front range of the Rockies between Colorado Springs and Denver plus a smattering of other much smaller operating locations nationwide. We're responsible for acquiring, developing and sustaining the United States Space Force's, critical space assets. That includes the satellites in the space layer and also on the ground layer our ground segments to operate those satellites. And we also are in charge of procuring launch services for the US Space Force and a number of our critical mission partners across the Department of Defense and the intelligence community. Just as a couple of examples of some of the things we do, if you're unfamiliar with our work we developed and currently sustain the 31 satellite GPS constellation that satellite constellation, while originally intended to help with global navigation, those GPS signals have provided trillions of dollars in unanticipated value to the global economy over the past three decades. GPS is everywhere. I think everybody realizes that. Agriculture, banking, the stock market, the airline industry, separate and distinct navigation systems. It's really pervasive across both capabilities for our Department of Defense and capabilities for our economy and individuals, billions of individuals across our country and the planet. Some of the other work we do for instance, in the communications sector, secure communications satellites that we designed and build that link America's sons and daughters serving in the military around the world and really enable real time support and comms for our deployed forces. And those of our allies. We also acquire infrared missile warning satellites that monitor the planet for missile launches that provide advanced warning to the US Homeland and to our allies in case some of those missile launches are nefarious. On a note, that's probably a lot closer to home, maybe a lot closer to home than many of us want to think about here in the state of California. In 2018, SMC jumped through a bunch of red tape and bureaucracy to partner with the US Forest Service during two of the largest wildfires in the state's history, the Camp and Woolsey fires in Northern California. As those fires spread out of control, we created processes on the fly to share data from our missile warning satellites. Those are satellites that are systems that are purpose built to see heat sources from thousands of miles above the planet. And we collaborated with the US Forest Service so that firefighters on the ground could track those fires more in real time and better forecast fires and where they were spreading, thereby saving lives and property by identifying hotspots and flareups for firefighters. That data that we were able to working with our contractors pass to the US Forest Service and authorities here in California, was passed in less than an hour as it was collected to get it into the hands of the emergency responders, the first responders as quickly as possible and doing that in an hour greatly surpassed what was available from some of the other assets in the airborne and ground-based fire spotters. It was really instrumental in fighting those fires and stopping their spread. We've continued that involvement in recent years, using multiple systems to support firefighters across the Western US this fall, as they battled numerous wildfires that unfortunately continue. Working together with the US Forest Service and with other partners we'd like to think that we've made a difference here, but there's still a lot more work to go. And I think that we should always be asking ourselves what else can space data be used for and how can we more rapidly get that space data to stakeholders so that they can use it for purposes of good, if you will. How else can we protect our nation? How else can we protect our friends and allies? I think a major component of the discussion that we will have throughout this conference is that the space landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change rapidly. Just over the past few years, John and I were talking before we went live here and 80 nations now have space programs. Nearly 80 space faring nations on the planet. If you just look at one mission area that the Department of Defense is interested in, and that's small launch, there are currently over 100 different small launch companies within the US industrial base vying for commercial DoD and civil payload capabilities, mostly to lower earth orbit. It's truly a remarkable time. If you factor in those things like artificial intelligence and machine learning, where we're revolutionizing really, the ways that we generate process and use data. It's really remarkable. In 2016, so if you think about this four years ago, NASA estimated that there were 28 terabytes of information transiting their space network each day. And that was four years ago. Obviously we've got a lot of desire to work with a lot of the people in the audience in this conference, we need to work with big thinkers, like many of you to answer questions on how best we apply data analytics to extract value and meaning from that data. We need new generations of thinkers to help apply cutting edge theories of data mining, cyber behaviorism, and Internet of Things 2.0, it's just truly a remarkable time to be in the space business and the cyber aspects of the space business are truly, truly daunting and important to all of us. Integrating cyber security into our space systems, both commercial and government is a mandate. it's no longer just a nice to have as the US Space Force and Department of the Air Force leadership has said many times over the past couple of years, space is becoming congested and contested. And that contested aspect means that we've got to focus on cyber security in the same way that the banking industry and cyber commerce focus on cybersecurity day in and day out. The value of the data and services provided is really directly tied to the integrity and availability of that data and services from the space layer, from the ground control segments associated with it. And this value is not just military, it's also economic and it's not just American, it's also a value for the entire world, particularly our allies, as we all depend upon space and space systems. Your neighbors and friends here in California that are employed at the space and missile system center work with network defenders. We work with our commercial contractors and our systems developers, our international allies and partners to try and build as secure and resilient systems as we can from the ground up that keep the global comments of space free and open for exploration and for commerce as John and I were talking earlier, before we came online, there's an aspect of cybersecurity for space systems, especially for some of our legacy systems, that's more, how do we bolt this on? Cause we fielded those space systems a number of years ago, and the challenges of cybersecurity in the space domain have grown. So we have a part that we have to worry about, bolting it on, but then we have to worry about building it in as we field new systems and build in a flexibility that realizes that the cyber threat or the cybersecurity landscape will evolve over time. It's not just going to be stagnant. There will always be new vulnerabilities and new threat vectors that we all have to look at. Look, as Secretary Barrett, who is our secretary of the air force likes to say most Americans use space before they have their first cup of coffee in the morning. The American way of life really depends on space. And as part of the United States Space Force, we work with defense leaders, our Congress joint, and international military teammates and industry to ensure American leadership in space. I really thank you for this opportunity to address the audience today, John, and thanks so much to Cal Poly for letting me be one of the speakers at this event. I've really looked forward to this for several months. And so with that, I look forward to your questions as we kind of move along here. >> General, thank you very much for those awesome introductory statement. For the folks watching on the stream, Brigadier General Carthan's going to be in the chat, answering any questions, feel free to chat away. He's the vice commander of Space and Missile System Center, he'll be available. A couple of comments from your keynote before I get to my questions. Cause it just jumped into my head. You mentioned the benefits of say space with the fires in California. We're living that here. That's really realtime. That's a benefit. You also mentioned the ability for more people launching payloads into space. I'm only imagined Moore's law smaller, faster, cheaper applies to rockets too. So I'm imagining you have the benefits of space and you have now more potential objects flying out sanctioned and maybe unsanctioned. So is it going to be more rules around that? This is an interesting question cause it's exciting Space Force, but for all the good there is potentially bad out there. >> Yeah. So John, I think the basics of your question is as space becomes more congested and contested, is there a need for more international norms of how satellites fly in space? What kind of basic features satellites have to perhaps de orbit themselves? What kind of basic protections should all satellites be afforded as part of a peaceful global commons of space? I think those are all fantastic questions. And I know that US and many allied policy makers are looking very, very hard at those kinds of questions in terms of what are the norms of behavior and how we field, and field as the military term. But how we populate using civil or commercial terms that space layer at different altitudes, lower earth orbit, mid earth orbit, geosynchronous earth orbit, different kinds of orbits, what the kind of mission areas we accomplished from space. That's all things that need to be definitely taken into account as the place gets a little bit, not a little bit as the place gets increasingly more popular day in and day out. >> I'm super excited for Space Force. I know that a new generation of young folks are really interested in it's an emerging, changing great space. The focus here at this conference is space and cybersecurity, the intersection. I'd like to get your thoughts on the approach that a space force is taking to cybersecurity and how it impacts our national goals here in the United States. >> Yeah. So that's a great question John, let me talk about it in two basic ways. At number one is an and I know some people in the audience, this might make them a little bit uncomfortable, but I have to talk about the threat. And then relative to that threat, I really have to talk about the importance of cyber and specifically cyber security, as it relates to that threat. The threats that we face really represented a new era of warfare and that new era of warfare involves both space and cyber. We've seen a lot of action in recent months from certain countries, notably China and Russia that have threatened what I referred to earlier as the peaceful global commons of space. For example, it threw many unclassified sources and media sources. Everybody should understand that the Russians have been testing on orbit anti-satellite capabilities. It's been very clear if you were following just the week before last, the Department of Defense released its 2020 military and security developments involving the People's Republic of China. And it was very clear that China is developing ASATs, electronic jammers, directed energy weapons, and most relevant to today's discussion, offensive cyber capabilities. There are kinetic threats that are very, very easy to see, but a cyber attack against a critical command and control site or against a particular spacecraft could be just as devastating to the system and our war fighters in the case of GPS and important to note that that GPS system also impacts many civilians who are dependent on those systems from a first response perspective and emergency services, a cyber attack against a ground control site could cause operators to lose control of a spacecraft or an attacker could feed spoofed data to assist them to mislead operators so that they sent emergency services personnel to the wrong address. Attacks on spacecraft on orbit, whether directly via a network intrusion or enabled through malware introduced during the system's production while we're building the satellite can cripple or corrupt the data. Denial-of-service type attacks on our global networks obviously would disrupt our data flow and interfere with ongoing operations and satellite control. If GPS went down, I hesitate to say it this way, cause we might elicit some screams from the audience. But if GPS went down a Starbucks, wouldn't be able to handle your mobile order, Uber drivers wouldn't be able to find you. And Domino's certainly wouldn't be able to get there in 30 minutes or less. So with a little bit of tongue in cheek there from a military operations perspective, it's dead serious. We have become accustomed in the commercial world to threats like ransomware and malware. And those things have unfortunately become commonplace in commercial terrestrial networks and computer systems. However, what we're seeing is that our adversaries with the increased competition in space these same techniques are being retooled, if you will, to use against our national security space systems day in and day out. As I said, during my opening remarks on the importance of cyber, the value of these systems is directly tied to their integrity. If commanders in the field, firefighters in California or baristas in Starbucks, can't trust the data they're receiving, then that really harms their decision making capabilities. One of the big trends we've recently seen is the move towards proliferated LEO constellations, obviously Space X's Starlink on the commercial side and on the military side, the work that DARPA and my organization SMC are doing on Blackjack and Casino, as well as some space transport layer constellation work that the space development agency is designing are all really, really important types of mesh network systems that will revolutionaries how we plan and field war fighting systems and commercial communications and internet providing systems. But they're also heavily reliant on cybersecurity. We've got to make sure that they are secured to avoid an accident or international damage. Loss of control of these constellations really could be catastrophic from both a mission perspective or from a satellites tumbling out of low earth orbit perspective. Another trend is introductions in artificial intelligence and machine learning, onboard spacecraft are at the edge. Our satellites are really not so much hardware systems with a little software anymore in the commercial sector and in the defense sector, they're basically flying boxes full of software. And we need to ensure that data that we're getting out of those flying boxes full of software are helping us base our decisions on accurate data and algorithms, governing the right actions and that those systems are impervious to the extent possible to nefarious modifications. So in summation, cybersecurity is a vital element of everything in our national security space goals. And I would argue for our national goals, writ large, including economic and information dimensions, the Space Force leadership at all levels from some of the brand new second lieutenants that general Raymond swore in to the space force this morning, ceremonially from the air force associations, airspace and cyberspace conference to the various highest levels, General Raymond, General DT Thompson, myself, and a number of other senior leaders in this enterprise. We've got to make sure that we're all working together to keep cyber security at the forefront of our space systems cause they absolutely depend on it. >> You mentioned hardware, software threats, opportunities, challenges. I want to ask you because you got me thinking of the minute they're around infrastructure. We've heard critical infrastructure, grids here on earth. You're talking about critical infrastructure, a redefinition of what critical infrastructure is, an extension of what we have. So I'd love to get your thoughts about Space Force's view of that critical infrastructure vis-a-vis the threat vectors, because the term threat vectors has been kicked around in the cyberspace. Oh you have threat vectors. They're always increasing the surface area. If the surface area is from space, it's an unlimited service area. So you got different vectors. So you've got new critical infrastructure developing real time, really fast. And you got an expanded threat vector landscape. Putting that in perspective for the folks that aren't really inside the ropes on these critical issues. How would you explain this and how would you talk about those two things? >> So I tell you, just like, I'm sure people in the security side or the cybersecurity side of the business in the banking industry feel, they feel like it's all possible threat vectors represent a dramatic and protect potentially existential threat to all of the dollars that they have in the banking system, to the financial sector. On the Department of Defense side, we've got to have sort of the same mindset. That threat vector from, to, and through space against critical space systems, ground segments, the launch enterprise, or transportation to orbit and the various different domains within space itself. Like I mentioned before, LEO, MEO and GEO based satellites with different orbits, all of the different mission areas that are accomplished from space that I mentioned earlier, some that I did mention like a weather tactical or wide band communications, various new features of space control. All of those are things that we have to worry about from a cyber security threat perspective. And it's a daunting challenge right now. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And one of the things we've been falling on the hardware side on the ground is the supply chain. We've seen, malware being, really put in a really obscure hardware. Who manufactures it? Is it being outsourced? Obviously government has restrictions, but with the private sector, you mentioned China and the US kind of working together across these peaceful areas. But you got to look at the supply chain. How does the supply chain in the security aspect impact the mission of the US space Force? >> Yeah. Yeah. So how about another, just in terms of an example, another kind of California based historical example. The very first US Satellite, Explorer 1, was built by the jet propulsion laboratory folks, not far from here in El Segundo, up in Pasadena, that satellite, when it was first built in the late 50s weighing a little bit, over 30 pounds. And I'm sure that each and every part was custom made and definitely made by US companies. Fast forward to today. The global supply chain is so tightly coupled, and frankly many industries are so specialized, almost specialized regionally around the planet. We focus every day to guarantee the integrity of every component that we put in our space systems is absolutely critical to the operations of those satellites and we're dependent upon them, but it becomes more difficult and more difficult to understand the heritage, if you will, of some of the parts that are used, the thousands of parts that are used in some of our satellites that are literally school bus sized. The space industry, especially national security space sector is relatively small compared to other commercial industries. And we're moving towards using more and more parts from non US companies. Cybersecurity and cyber awareness have to be baked in from the beginning if we're going to be using parts that maybe we don't necessarily understand 100% like an Explorer one, the lineage of that particular part. The environmental difficulties in space are well known. The radiation environment, the temperature extremes, the vacuum, those require specialized component. And the US military is not the only customer in that space. In fact, we're definitely not the dominant customer in space anymore. All those factors require us along with our other government partners and many different commercial space organizations to keep a very close eye on our supply chains, from a quality perspective, a security perspective and availability. There's open source reporting on supply training intrusions from many different breaches of commercial retailers to the infectious spread of compromised patches, if you will. And our adversaries are aware of these techniques. As I mentioned earlier, with other forms of attack, considering our supply chains and development networks really becomes fair game for our adversaries. So we have to take that threat seriously. Between the government and industry sectors here in the US. We're also working with our industry partners to enact stronger defenses and assess our own vulnerabilities. Last fall, we completed an extensive review of all of our major contracts here at Space and Missile System Center to determine the levels of cyber security requirements we've implemented across our portfolio. And it sounds really kind of businessy geeky, if you will. Hey, we looked at our contracts to make sure that we had the right clauses in our contracts to address cybersecurity as dynamically as we possibly could. And so we found ourselves having to add new language to our contracts, to require system developers, to implement some more advanced protective measures in this evolving cyber security environment. So that data handling and supply chain protections from contract inception to launch and operations were taken into account. Cyber security really is a key performance parameter for us now. Performance of the system, It's as important as cost, it's as important as schedule, because if we deliver the perfect system on time and on cost, it can perform that missile warning or that communications mission perfectly, but it's not cyber secure. If it's doesn't have cyber protections built into it, or the ability to implement mitigations against cyber threats, then we've essentially fielded a shoe box in space that doesn't do the CA the war fighter or the nation any good. Supply chain risk management is a major challenge for us. We're doing a lot to coordinate with our industry partners. We're all facing it head on to try and build secure and trusted components that keep our confidence as leaders, firefighters, and baristas as the case may be. But it is a challenge. And we're trying to rise to that challenge. >> This is so exciting this new area, because it really touches everything. Talk about geeking out on the tech, the hardware, the systems but also you put your kind of MBA hat on you go, what's the ROI of extra development and how things get built. Because the always the exciting thing for space geeks is like, if you're building cool stuff, it's exciting, but you still have to build. And cybersecurity has proven that security has to be baked in from the beginning and be thought as a system architecture. So you're still building things, which means you got to acquire things, you got to acquire parts, you got acquire build software and sustain it. How is security impacting the acquisition and the sustainment of these systems for space? >> Yeah. From initial development, through planning for the acquisition, design, development, our production fielding and sustainment, it impacts all aspects of the life cycle, John. We simply, especially from the concept of baking in cybersecurity, we can't wait until something is built and then try and figure out how to make it cyber secure. So we've moved way further towards working side by side with our system developers to strengthen cybersecurity from the very beginning of a systems development, cyber security, and the resilience associated with it really have to be treated as a key system attribute. As I mentioned earlier, equivalent with data rates or other metrics of performance. We like to talk in the space world about mission assurance and mission assurance has always sort of taken us as we technically geek out. Mission assurance has always taken us to the will this system work in space. Can it work in a vacuum? Can it work in as it transfers through the Van Allen radiation belt or through the Southern hemisphere's electromagnetic anomaly? Will it work out in space? And now from a resiliency perspective, yeah, it has to work in space. It's got to be functional in space, but it's also got to be resistant to these cybersecurity threats. It's not just, I think a General D.T Thompson quoted this term. It's not just widget assurance anymore. It's mission assurance. How does that satellite operator that ground control segment operate while under attack? So let me break your question a little bit, just for purposes of discussion into really two parts, cybersecurity, for systems that are new and cybersecurity for systems that are in sustainment are kind of old and legacy. Obviously there's cyber vulnerabilities that threatened both, and we really have to employ different strategies for defensive of each one. For new systems. We're desperately trying to implement across the Department of Defense and particularly in the space world, a kind of a dev sec ops methodology and practice to delivering software faster and with greater security for our space systems. Here at SMC, we have a program called enterprise ground services, which is a toolkit, basically a collection of tools for common command and control of different satellite systems, EGS as we call it has an integrated suite for defensive cyber capabilities. Network operators can use these tools to gain unprecedented insight to data flows and to monitor space network traffic for anomalies or other potential indicators of a bad behavior, malicious behavior, if you will, it's rudimentary at this point, but because we're using DevSecOps and that incremental development approach, as we scale it, it just becomes more and more capable. Every product increment that we feel. Here at LA Air Force Base, we have the United Space Force's West Coast Software Factory, which we've dubbed the Kobayashi Maru. They're using those agile DevOps software development practices to deliver a space awareness software to the combined space operations center. Affectionately called the CSpock that CSpock is just on the road from Cal Poly there in San Luis Obispo at Vandenberg Air Force Base. They've so securely linked the sea Spock with other space operation centers around the planet, our allies, Australia, Canada, and the UK. We're partnering with all of them to enable secure and enhanced combined space operations. So lots of new stuff going on as we bake in new development capabilities for our space systems. But as I mentioned earlier, we've got large constellations of satellites on orbit right now. Some of them are well in excess of a decade or more or old on orbit. And so the design aspects of those satellites are several decades old. But we still have to worry about them cause they're critical to our space capabilities. We've been working with an air force material command organization called CROWS, which stands for the Cyber Resiliency Office for Weapon Systems to assess all of those legacy platforms from a cyber security perspective and develop defensive strategies and potential hardware and software upgrades to those systems to better enable them to live through this increasingly cybersecurity concerned era that we currently live in. Our industry partners have been critical to both of those different avenues. Both new systems and legacy systems. We're working closely with them to defend and upgrade national assets and develop the capabilities to do similar with new national assets coming online. The vulnerabilities of our space systems really kind of threatened the way we've done business in the past, both militarily and in the case of GPS economically. The impacts of that cybersecurity risk are clear in our acquisition and sustainment processes, but I've got to tell you, as the threat vectors change, as the vulnerabilities change, we've got to be nimble enough, agile enough, to be able to bounce back and forth. We can't just say, many people in the audience are probably familiar with the RMF or the Risk Management Framework approach to reviewing the cyber security of a system. We can't have program managers and engineers just accomplish an RMF on a system. And then, hey, high five, we're all good. It's a journey, not a destination, that's cybersecurity. And it's a constant battle rhythm through our weapon systems lifecycle, not just a single event. >> I want to get to this commercial business needs and your needs on the next question. But before I go there, you mentioned agile. And I see that clearly because when you have accelerated innovation cycles, you've got to be faster. And we saw this in the computer industry, mainframes, mini computers, and then we started getting beyond maybe when the internet hit and PCs came out, you saw the big enterprises, the banks and government start to work with startups. And it used to be a joke in the entrepreneurial circles is that, there's no way if you are a startup you're ever going to get a contract with a big business enterprise. Now that used to be for public sector and certainly for you guys. So as you see startups out there and there's acquisition involved, I'm sure would love to have a contract with Space Force. There's an ROI calculation where if it's in space and you have a sustainment view and it's software, you might have a new kind of business model that could be attractive to startups. Could you share your thoughts on the folks who want to be a supplier to you, whether they're a startup or an existing business that wants to be agile, but they might not be that big company. >> John, that's a fantastic question. We're desperately trying to reach out to those new space advocates, to those startups, to those what we sometimes refer to, within the Department of Defense, those non traditional defense contractors. A couple of things just for thinking purposes on some of the things that we're trying to highlight. Three years ago, we created here at Space and Missile System Center, the Space Enterprise Consortium to provide a platform, a contractual vehicle, really to enable us to rapidly prototype, development of space systems and to collaborate between the US Space Force, traditional defense contractors, non traditional vendors like startups, and even some academic institutions. SPEC, as we call it, Space Enterprise Consortium uses a specialized contracting tool to get contracts awarded quickly. Many in the audience may be familiar with other transaction agreements. And that's what SPEC is based on. And so far in just three years, SPEC has awarded 75 different prototyping contracts worth over $800 million with a 36% reduction in time to award. And because it's a consortium based competition for these kinds of prototyping efforts, the barrier to entry for small and nontraditional, for startups, even for academic institutions to be able to compete for these kinds of prototyping has really lowered. These types of partnerships that we've been working through on spec have really helped us work with smaller companies who might not have the background or expertise in dealing with the government or in working with cyber security for their systems, both our developmental systems and the systems that they're designing and trying to build. We want to provide ways for companies large and small to partner together in support kind of mutually beneficial relationships between all. Recently at the Annual Air Force Association conference that I mentioned earlier, I moderated a panel with several space industry leaders, all from big traditional defense contractors, by the way. And they all stressed the importance of building bridges and partnerships between major contractors in the defense industry and new entrance. And that helps us capture the benefits of speed and agility that come with small companies and startups, as well as the expertise and specialized skill sets of some of those larger contractors that we rely on day in and day out. Advanced cyber security protections and utilization of secure facilities are just a couple of things that I think we could be prioritizing more so in those collaborations. As I mentioned earlier, the SPEC has been very successful in awarding a number of different prototyping contracts and large dollar values. And it's just going to get better. There's over 400 members of the space enterprise consortium, 80% of them are non traditional kinds of vendors. And we just love working with them. Another thing that many people in the audience may be familiar with in terms of our outreach to innovators, if you will, and innovators that include cyber security experts is our space pitch day events. So we held our first event last November in San Francisco, where we awarded over a two day period about $46 million to 30 different companies that had potentially game changing ideas. These were phase two small business innovative research efforts that we awarded with cash on the spot. We're planning on holding our second space pitch day in the spring of 2021. We're planning on doing it right here in Los Angeles, COVID-19 environment permitting. And we think that these are fantastic venues for identifying and working with high-speed startups, and small businesses who are interested in really, truly partnering with the US Air Force. It's, as I said before, it's a really exciting time to be a part of this business. And working with the innovation economy is something that the Department of Defense really needs to do in that the innovation that we used to think was ours. That 80% of the industrial base innovation that came from the Department of Defense, the script has been flipped there. And so now more than 70%, particularly in space innovation comes from the commercial sector, not from the defense business itself. And so that's a tsunami of investment and a tsunami of a capability. And I need to figure out how to get my surfboard out and ride it, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, It's one of those things where the script has been flipped, but it's exciting because it's impacting everything. When you're talking about systems architecture? You're talking about software, you're talking about a business model. You're talking about dev sec opsx from a technical perspective, but now you have a business model innovation. All the theaters are exploding in innovation, technical, business, personnel. This brings up the workforce challenge. You've got the cyber needs for the US Space Force, It's probably great ROI model for new kinds of software development that could be priced into contracts. That's a entrepreneurial innovation, you've got the business model theater, you've got the personnel. How does the industry adopt and change? You guys are clearly driving this. How does the industry adjust to you? >> Yeah. So I think a great way to answer that question is to just talk about the kind of people that we're trying to prioritize in the US Space Force from an acquisition perspective, and in this particular case from a cybersecurity perspective. As I mentioned earlier, it's the most exciting time to be in space programs, really since the days of Apollo. Just to put it in terms that maybe have an impact with the audience. From 1957 until today, approximately 9,000 satellites have been launched from the various space varying countries around the planet. Less than 2000 of those 9,000 are still up on orbit and operational. And yet in the new space regime players like Space X have plans to launch, 12,000 satellites for some of their constellations alone. It really is a remarkable time in terms of innovation and fielding of space capabilities and all of those space capabilities, whether they're commercial, civil, or defense are going to require appropriate cybersecurity protections. It's just a really exciting time to be working in stuff like this. And so folks like the folks in this audience who have a passion about space and a passion about cybersecurity are just the kind of people that we want to work with. Cause we need to make sure our systems are secure and resilient. We need folks that have technical and computing expertise, engineering skills to be able to design cyber secure systems that can detect and mitigate attacks. But we also, as you alluded to, we need people that have that business and business acumen, human networking background, so that we can launch the startups and work with the non traditional businesses. Help to bring them on board help, to secure both their data and our data and make sure our processes and systems are free as much as possible from attack. For preparation, for audience members who are young and maybe thinking about getting into this trade space, you got to be smart on digital networking. You got to understand basic internet protocols, concepts, programming languages, database design. Learn what you can for penetration or vulnerability testing and a risk assessment. I will tell you this, and I don't think he will, I know he will not mind me telling you this, but you got to be a lifelong learner and so two years ago, I'm at home evening and I get a phone call on my cell phone and it's my boss, the commander of Air Force Space command, General, J. Raymond, who is now currently the Chief of Space Operations. And he is on temporary duty, flying overseas. He lands where he's going and first thing he does when he lands is he calls me and he goes JT, while I was traveling, I noticed that there were eBooks available on the commercial airliner I was traveling on and there was an ebook on something called scrumming and agile DevSecOps. And I read it, have you read it? And I said, no, sir. But if you tell me what the title of the book is, I will read it. And so I got to go to my staff meeting, the very next week, the next time we had a staff meeting and tell everybody in the staff meeting, hey, if the four star and the three star can read the book about scrumming, then I'm pretty sure all of you around this table and all our lieutenants and our captains our GS13s, All of our government employees can get smart on the scrumming development process. And interestingly as another side, I had a telephone call with him last year during the holidays, where he was trying to take some leave. And I said, sir, what are you up to today? Are you making eggnog for the event tonight or whatever. And the Chief of Space Operations told me no, I'm trying to teach myself Python. I'm at lesson two, and it's not going so well, but I'm going to figure this out. And so that kind of thing, if the chief of staff or the Chief of Space Operations can prioritize scrumming and Python language and innovation in his daily schedule, then we're definitely looking for other people who can do that. And we'll just say, lower levels of rank throughout our entire space force enterprise. Look, we don't need people that can code a satellite from scratch, but we need to know, we need to have people that have a basic grasp of the programming basics and cybersecurity requirements. And that can turn those things into meaningful actions, obviously in the space domain, things like basic physics and orbital mechanics are also important spaces, not an intuitive domain. So under understanding how things survive on orbit is really critical to making the right design and operational decisions. And I know there's probably a lot, because of this conference. I know there's probably a whole lot of high speed cybersecurity experts out in the audience. And I need those people in the US Space Force. The country is counting on it, but I wouldn't discount having people that are just cyber aware or cyber savvy. I have contracting officers and logisticians and program managers, and they don't have to be high end cybersecurity experts, but they have to be aware enough about it to be able to implement cyber security protections into our space systems. So the skill set is really, really broad. Our adversaries are pouring billions of dollars into designing and fielding offensive and destructive space, cybersecurity weapons. They repeatedly shown really a blatant disregard of safety and international norms for good behavior on orbit. And the cyber security aspects of our space systems is really a key battleground going forward so that we can maintain that. As I mentioned before, peaceful global comments of space, we really need all hands on deck. If you're interested in helping in uniform, if you're interested in helping, not in uniform, but as a government employee, a commercial or civil employee to help us make cyber security more important or more able to be developed for our space systems. And we'd really love to work with you or have you on the team to build that safe and secure future for our space systems. >> Lieutenant General John Thompson, great insight. Thank you for sharing all that awesome stories too, and motivation for the young next generation. The United States Space Force approach to cybersecurity. Really amazing talk, thank you for your time. Final parting question is, as you look out and you have your magic wand, what's your view for the next few years in terms of things that we could accomplish? It's a super exciting time. What do you hope for? >> So first of all, John, thanks to you and thanks to Cal Poly for the invitation and thanks to everybody for their interest in cybersecurity, especially as it relates to space systems, that's here at the conference. There's a quote, and I'll read it here from Bernard Schriever, who was the founder, if you will, a legend in a DoD space, the founder of the Western development division, which was a predecessor organization to Space and Missile System Center, General Schriever, I think captures the essence of how we see the next couple of years. "The world has an ample supply of people "who can always come up with a dozen good reasons "why new ideas will not work and should not be tried, "but the people who produce progress are breed apart. "They have the imagination, "the courage and the persistence to find solutions." And so I think if you're hoping that the next few years of space innovation and cybersecurity innovation are going to be upon a pony ride at the County fair, then perhaps you should look for another line of work, because I think the next few years in space and cybersecurity innovation are going to be more like a rodeo and a very dynamic rodeo as it goes. It is an awesome privilege to be part of this ecosystem. It's really an honor for me to be able to play some small role in the space ecosystem and trying to improve it while I'm trying to improve the chances of the United States of America in a space war fighting environment. And so I thank all of you for participating today and for this little bit of time that you've allowed me to share with you. Thank you. >> Sir, thank you for your leadership and thank you for the time for this awesome event, Space and Cyber Cybersecurity Symposium 2020, I'm John Furrier on behalf of Cal Poly, thanks for watching. (mellow music)

>> Narrator: From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hello and welcome back to this CUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE Studios, your hosts for our remote interviews as part of our coverage and continue to get the interviews during COVID-19. Great talk and session here about data warehouses, data lakes, data everything, hybrid cloud, and back on theCube for a return Cube alumni, virtual alumni, Jitesh Ghai senior vice president general manager of data management, Informatica. Great to see you come back. We had a great chat about privacy in the last session and data scale. Great to see you again. >> Likewise John, great seeing you is always a pleasure to join you and discuss some of the prevailing topics in the space of data. >> Well it's great that you're available on remote. And thanks for coming back again, because we want to dig into really the digital transformation aspect of the challenges that your customers have specifically around data warehouses and data lakes, because this has become a big topic. What are the biggest challenges that you guys see your customers facing with digital transformation? >> Yeah, great question. Really, it comes down to ensuring every digital transformation should be data-driven. There is a data work stream to help inform thoughtful insights that drive decisions to embark on and realize outcomes from the transformation. And for that you need a healthy, productive, modern, agile, flexible data and analytics stack. And so what we are enabling our customers realize is a modern cloud-native, cloud-first, data and analytics stack built on modern architectures of data lakes and data warehouses, all in the cloud. >> So you mentioned the data warehouse, modern cloud and the data lake. Tell us more about that. What's going on there. How does, how do customers approach that? Because it's not the old fashioned way, and data lakes been around for a while too, by the way, some people call it the data swamp, but they don't take care of it. Talk about those two things and how customers attack that strategic imperative to get it done right? >> Yeah, there's been a tremendous amount of disruption and innovation in the data and analytics stack. And what we're really seeing, I think you mentioned it is, 15 even 20 years ago, they were these things called data marts that the finance teams would report against, for financial reporting, regulatory compliance, et cetera. Then there was this, these things called data warehouses that were bringing together data from across the enterprise for comprehensive enterprise views to run the business as well as to perform reporting. And then with the advent of big data about five years ago, we had Hadoop-based data lakes, which as you mentioned, we're also in many cases, data swamps because of the lack of governance, lack of cataloging and insights into what is in the lake, who should, and shouldn't access the lake. And very quickly that itself got disrupted from Hadoop to Spark. And very quickly customers realize that, hey, you know what? Managing these 5,100, several hundred node, Hadoop lakes, Sparked lakes on-premise is extremely expensive and hardware extremely expensive and people extremely expensive and maintaining and patching and et cetera, et cetera. And so the demand very rapidly shifted to cloud-first, cloud-native data lakes. Equally, we're seeing customers realize the benefits of cloud-first cloud-native, the flexibility, the elasticity, the agility. And we're seeing them realize their data warehouses and reporting in the cloud as well for the same elastic benefits for performance as well as for economics. >> So what is the critical capabilities needed to be successful with kind of a modern data warehouse or a data lake that's a last to can scaling and providing value? What are those critical capabilities required to be successful? >> For sure, exactly. It's first and foremost cloud-first cloud-native, but, why are we Informatica, uniquely positioned and excited to enable, this modernization of the data and analytics stack in the cloud, as it comes down to foundational capabilities that we're recognized as a leader in, across the three magic quadrants of metadata management, data integration and data quality. Oftentimes, when folks are prototyping, they immediately start hand coding and, putting some data together through some ingestion, basic ingestion capability. And they think that they're building a data Lake or populating a data warehouse, but to truly build a system of record, you need comprehensive data management, integration and data quality capabilities. And that's really what we're offering to our customers as a cloud-first cloud-native. So that it's not just your data lakes and data warehouses that are cloud-first cloud-native. So is your data management stack so that you get the same flexibility, agility, resiliency, benefits. >> I don't think many people are really truly understand how important what you just said is the cloud-native capabilities. In addition to some of those things, it's really imperative to be built for the future. So with that, can you give me a couple of examples of customers that you can showcase to illustrate, the success of having the critical capabilities from Informatica. >> Yeah, what we've found is an enabler to be data-driven, requires organizations to bring data together to various applications and various sources of data on-premise in the cloud from SaaS apps, from a cloud PaaS databases, as well as from on-premise databases on-premise applications. And that's typically done in a data lake architecture. It's in that architecture that you have multiple zones of curation, you have a landing zone, a prep zone, and then it's certified datasets that you can democratize. And we spoke about some of this previously under the topic of data governance and privacy. What we are enabling with these capabilities of metadata management data integration, data quality is onboarding all of this data comprehensively processing it and getting it ready for analytics teams for data science teams. Kelly Services for example, is managing the recruitment of over a half a million candidates using greater data-driven insights within their data lake architecture, leveraging our integration quality metadata management capabilities to realize these outcomes. AXA XL is doing very similar things with their data lake and data warehousing architecture, to inform, the data science teams or more productive underwriting. So a tremendous amount of data-driven insights, being data-driven, being a data-driven organization really comes down to this foundational architecture of cloud data warehousing and data lakes, and the associated cloud-first cloud-native data management that we're enabling our customers, realize these, realize that becoming a data-driven organization. >> Okay, Jitesh, I got to put you on the spot on this one. I'm a customer pretend for a minute I'm a customer. I say, okay, I'm comfortable with my old fashion. My grandfather's data warehouse had it for years. It spits out the reports it needs to spit out, data lake I'm really not, I got it, I got a bunch of servers. Maybe we'll put our toe in the water there and try it out, but I'm good right now. I'm not sure I'm ready to go there. My boss is telling me, I'm telling them I'm good. I got a cloud strategy with Microsoft. I've got a cloud strategy with AWS on paper. We're going to go that way, but I'm not going to move. I need to just stay where I'm at. What do you say to that customer? First of all, I don't think anyone's that kind of that, well unless they're really in the legacy world, but may be they're locked in, but for the most part, they're saying, hey, I'm not ready to move. >> We see, we see both. We see the spectrum. We of course, to us data management, being cloud-first being cloud-native, necessitates that your capability support hybrid architectures. So there is a, there are a class of customers that for potentially regulatory compliance reasons, typically financial services, certainly comes to mind where they're decidedly, align state of their estate is on-premise. It's an old fashioned data centers. Well, those customers, we have market leading capabilities that we've had for many, many, many, many, many years. And that's fine. That works too. But we're naturally seeing organizations, even banks and financial services awakened to all the obvious benefits of a cloud-first strategy and are starting to modernize various pieces. First, it was just decommissioning data centers and moving their application and analytics and data estate to the cloud, as it's bring your own licenses as we refer to it. That very quickly, it has modernized to, I want to leverage the past data offerings within an AWS within an Azure, within a GCP. I want to leverage this modern data warehouse from Snowflake. And there, that's when customers are realizing this benefit and realizing the acceleration of value they can get by unshackling themselves from the burden of managing servers, managing the software, the operating system, as well as the associated applications, databases that need to be administered, upgraded, et cetera, abstracting away all of that so that they can really focus on the problem of data, collecting it, processing it, and enabling the larger lines of business to be data-driven, enabling those digital transformations that we were speaking about earlier. >> Well, I know you mentioned a Snowflake. I think they're actually hot company in Silicon Valley. They filed to go public. Everyone I've talked to loves working with them. They're easy to use and I think they're eating into Redshift a little bit from Amazon side. Certainly anyone's using old school data warehouses, Oh, they look at Snowflake is great. How does a customer who wants to get to that kind of experience set up for that? There's some that you guys do. We've had many conversations with some of the leaders at Informatica about this and your board members, and you've got to, you've got to set the foundation and you've got to get this done right. Take us through what it takes to do that. I mean, timetable, are we talking months, weeks, days, is that a migration for a year? It depends on how big it is, but if I do want to take that step to set my company up for these kinds of large cloud scale cloud-native benefits. >> Yeah, great question, great question John. Really, how customers approach it varies significantly. We have a segment of the market that really just picks up, our trial version free, but we have a freemium embedded within the Snowflake experience so that you can select us within as a Snowflake administrator and select us as the data management tooling that you want to use to start ingesting and onboarding and processing data within the Snowflake platform. We have customers that are building net new data warehouses for a line of business like marketing. Where they need, enterprise class, enterprise scale, data management as they service capabilities. And that's where we enable and support them. We also see customers recognizing that their on-premise data and analytics stack their cloud data Lake or their cloud data warehouse is too expensive, is not delivering on the latest and greatest features or the necessary insights. And therefore they are migrating that on-premise data warehouse to a cloud-native data warehouse, like Snowflake, like Redshift, BigQuery and so forth. And that's where we have technologies and capabilities that have helped them build this on-premise data warehouse, the business logic, all the ETL, the processing that was authored on-premise. We have a way of converting that and repurposing it within our cloud-first cloud-native metaphors, so that they get the benefit of continued value from their existing estate, but within a modern cloud-first cloud-native paradigm, that's elastic that serverless and so forth. >> Jitesh, always great to speak with you. You've got a great thought leadership, just an expertise, but also leading a big group within Informatica around data warehouses and data management in general, that you're the GM as well, you've got a PNL responsibility. Thanks for coming on. I do want to ask you while I got you here to react to some of the news, and how it means what it means for the enterprise. So I just did a panel session on Sunday. My new, "meet the analysts segment show" I'm putting together around the EU's recent decision to shoot down the privacy shield law in the UK, mainly because of the data sharing. GDPR is kicking in, California is doing something here. It kind of teases out the broader trend of data sharing, right? And responsibility. Well, I'm going to surveil you. You're going to say, it's not necessarily related to Informatica, so to speak, but it does kind of give a tell sign that, this idea of having your data to be managed so you can have kinds of the policies you need to be adaptive to. It turns out no one knows what's going on. I got data over here. I got data over there. So it's kind of data all over the place. And you know, one law says this, the other law contradicts it, tons of loopholes, but it points out what can happen when data gets out of control. >> Yeah, and then that's exactly right. And that's why, when I say metadata management is a critical foundational capability to build these modern data and analytics architectures it's because metadata management enables cataloging and understanding where all your data is, how it's proliferating and ensuring that it enables that it also enables governance as a result, because metadata management gives you technical metadata. It gives you business metadata. The combination on all of these different types of metadata enabled you to have an organized view of your data state, enable you to plan on how you want the process, manage work with the data and who you can and cannot share that data with. And that's that governing framework that enables organizations to be data-driven to democratize data, but within a governance framework. So extremely critical, but to democratize data, to be more data-driven you also need the govern data. And that's how metadata management with integration and quality really bring things together. >> And to have a user experience that's agile and modern contemporary, you got to have the compliance governance, but you've got to enable the application developers or the use cases to not be waiting. You got to be fast. >> That's exactly right. In this new modern world, digital transformation, faster pace, everybody wants to be data-driven. And that spans a spectrum of deeply technical data engineers, data analysts, data scientists, all the way to nontechnical business users that want to do some ad hoc analytics and want the data when they want it. And it's critical. We have built that on a foundation of intelligent metadata, or what we call a CLAIRE engine, and we have built the fit for use deliberate experiences. What are the appropriate personas, the deeply technical ones, wanting more technical experiences, all the way to nontechnical business users just want data in a simple data marketplace type of shopping paradigm. So critical to meet the UX requirements, the user experience requirements for there's a varied group of data consumers. >> Great to have you on I'll let you have the last word. Talk to the people who are watching this that may be a customer of yours, or may be in the need to be a customer of Informatica. What's your pitch? What would you say to that customer? Why Informatica? Give the pitch. >> Informatica is a laser focused singularly focused on the problem of data management. We are independent and neutral. So we work with your corporate standard, whether it's AWS, Azure, GCP, your best of breed selections, whether it's Snowflake or Databricks. And in many cases, we see the global 2000 select multiple cloud vendors. One division goes with AWS and other goes with Azure. And so the world of data analytics is decidedly multicloud. It's, while we recognize that data is proliferating everywhere, and there are multiple technologies and multiple PaaS offerings from various cloud vendors where data may reside including on-premise you want, and while all of that might be fragmented, you want a single data management capability within your organization that brings together metadata management, integration quality, and is increasingly automating the job of data management, leveraging AI and ML. So that in this data 4.0 world, Informatica is enabling AI power data management, so that you can get faster insights and be more data-driven and deliver more business outcomes. >> Jitesh Ghai, senior vice president, and general manager of data management at Informatica. You're watching our virtual coverage and remote interviews with all the Informatica thought leaders and experts and senior executives and customers here on theCUBE I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. 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>> Commentator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Welcome to theCUBE's conversation with Dell Technologies. I'm Lisa Martin and today I'm talking with Mark Sanders, the VP of Global Presales from the Data Protection Division at Dell Technologies. Mark, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me, Lisa. >> Great to meet you virtually in this new world that we're all operating in. So I want to understand a couple of things, when you were in the field talking with customers, as I'm sure you are on a daily basis, now virtually. But, in terms of value, I think nowadays for businesses to understand the value that technology decisions and longterm benefits can make to their environments is critical as budgets are changing, they're shrinking, et cetera. Validate the Value or VTV is a methodology that Dell EMC has pioneered. Tell me about that and what does it actually mean? >> Yeah, I mean, when was the last time a customer said, "Hey, I need to do more with less", right? It just doesn't happen. So, the reality is customers are under extreme pressure when they make us an investment, to validate that what they planned it to solve, like, what's the outcome they're looking for actually came true. And, you know, we pioneered this process where we go back in after a solution has been implemented, and it's, you know, been installed for a little bit of time and go in and pull a bunch of stats from the system so we can objectively provide data to the customer that says, this is the actual performance, this is the actual outcome that you receive for the solution that you invested in. And then, you know, what's really transpired once we created that process is customer really loved seeing this information, so they wanted to see it on a frequent basis and it kind of evolved into a process where we can quickly identify key KPIs with a dashboard view, DU proficiency, time to back up, time to restore, success, failure rates and as systems evolve continually provide an update to the customer on the value of the system that they have from us is providing to them and keep in front of mind and then, you know, nowadays we not only show them the stats of the system, but also then validate the actual Cost to Serve, meaning the amount of data they're holding versus the investment they've made, you do the math, you can come up with a cost per Gigabyte to that store on the system, which are key metrics that customers like to see. >> Well, that quantification is critical, right? Because there's a lot of competitors in the market that do similar things, but being able to not just show metrics from a survey or an analyst report, but actual customer metrics. These are the numbers that we're generating for you on a weekly or a monthly basis. That sounds pretty differentiating. >> It sure is. The reality is, if you can show a customer not only the performance of their system and validate it to that level, that really puts a lot of the noise in the system from different competitors who are claiming other things, you know, puts it to rest when the real data, it's really performing, the cost of service is exceptional. When they compare that to another solution that they're looking at, it's a no brainer that why they continue to invest in and stay with Dell EMC. The other point of this is you can show an Automatized B2B to potential customer to show, hey, this is a customer, the same vertical you are, who's doing the same things that you're talking about doing with us. Here are the stats that they're seeing, it's a real proof points and what I've found in the market is those who can truly show the value that their system can do and validate it do, and those who just rely on Marchitecture and PowerPoint slides and handshakes, they don't talk about these things and, you know, if you scan the market, I don't hear any other vendor talking about validate the value or showing objective stats after implementation and actually doing the cost and serve math for them. And you should be asking yourself as a customer who's considering us, why aren't the other guys talking about this? It's because their numbers aren't as good as ours. If you had better stats than us, I guarantee you'd be talking about it all day long, twice on Sunday. >> So validate the value, how does that synergize with TCO and ROI some of the other metrics that we're often used to hearing? Is this a kind of like a trifecta where you can really show customers a number of significant statistics to show what they're in real time achieving with your technologies? >> Yeah, so there's a number of stats that are covered in a value to value, the amount of data that's protected and mandated your storing, how long it takes to back data up, how many systems are being protected and then, you know, we factor that into the original investment that you made, come up with your cost to serve. So those key metrics then validate the ROI or the return on investment that you're looking for, you know, are you able to meet the current demand need that you sized the system for? Therefore you don't have to invest more and so the actual projection on that TCO is true. You can continually validate that along the way and a normal customer will look at a B2B and their stats on a quarterly or six month basis, a rolling basis just to make sure that ROI, TCO, that they were, you know, that you modeled in the beginning is actually coming through. See what happens is a lot of times people think they have ROI, but then the reality is whoever sold them something didn't sell them enough, and then they have to invest more in, and so that ROI gets thrown out of whack and they don't go back and validate that they actually did meet the ROI. So one of the things we really pride ourselves on is sizing, being able to deliver a solution that performs as designed, you stand behind it and then we continually validate that we're being able to meet those milestones to hit that ROI. >> Can you give me a customer example in any industry that you think really, highlights and underscores the hallmark of what VTV actually means and delivers? >> Yeah, so we've done so many of these last year, just to give you an example, we did something like 33,000 Value to Values across all the different customers that we have. And so you see some very common statistics when you look at these as many of them as I do. So a common statistic will be, you know, 99% success rate, that means that 99% of the time, all the backups complete and finish a hundred percent, there's no issues. And then another common statistic is that, you know, about 80 to 90% of the backups finish in less than an hour. That means that out of all the thousands of clients that you have, almost, you know, almost all of your backups are actually happening in less than an hour, showing the performance of our system. And then the typical stats we see on a deduplication are anywhere from 20 to 100 to 1, it just depends on how many backups you're doing a day and what your intention is, but we see significant value on the deduplication of timeline. And then the last bit I'll tell you that's pretty typical is the actual, you know, replication window, how much data you have to replicate, right? There's three stats that show up here, the daily DD Break, the weekly DD Break and the overall. We typically show the overall, and that gives you your cost to serve, which is typically pennies a gig but what's very interesting is that daily DD Break is the amount of data you have to replicate. And that is consistently super low due to a high DD Break which drives that TCO that you were talking about before, who said drives ROI, right? If you have to invest in more bandwidth because the solution you have does not perform and you constantly are sending way more data than was advertised to you, you know, pipes are expensive, dedicated connections become costly, and it is opening up a new link becomes a real burden to an enterprise. >> So as organizations are evolving every day and especially in the COVID situation, when there's so much acceleration going on at the same time as there's budgets that are shrinking or being depleted or being eliminated, customers are also in this multi-cloud hybrid world in which they live, where they're trying to manage pretty much every organization that a suite of traditional technologies and they're taking on emerging technologies, whether it's Cloud Native, SaaS, 5G or Kubernetes. So how does Dell EMC help customers manage and protect this critical data across traditional technologies and those emerging and really be able to manage all of that, from a single pane of glass, ensuring that everything is protected from any type of accidental or malicious incident? >> Well, that's a lot, but let's go kind of unpack that real fast, right? So there's a couple of things that Dell does, which makes us unique in this current market that we live in where Multicloud you have both proven workloads that have been around for a while that still need protecting, plus you're looking at modern workloads, whether it's containers, Kubernetes or you can have stuff in Azure, Amazon, Google, you know, multiple clouds or you have your own private cloud. The reality is most customers have multiple applications in a life cycle management situation where they may have some older applications they're going to be around for several years while they're still doing modern apps at the same time. And so Dell's really got, you know, what we categorize is, you know, proven in modern and then coexistence. And the reality is, is that we have both proven technology that delivers a fantastic performance, fantastic ROI, fantastic cost to serve, and really protects that application tool set that's been out there in the market for a long time that customers still have. At the same time we now have modern capabilities that address things like Kubernetes and Multicloud and the ability to manage that all from a single pane of glass, click and launch, single sign on, everything's HTML5, simple and easy to do, the same time delivering full API transparency. A lot of customers have both the need for UI and full automation through an API and so it's this value that we unlock by allowing the customer to have a single vendor that protects both proven in modern capabilities and proven in modern workloads across all the different cloud environments that they need. So they don't need another vendor and I know we were talking earlier about the study that we've done at Dell, the Global Data Protection Index, done it multiple years in a row and it consistently shows that companies who have multiple data protection vendors to protect their workloads, tend to lose more data when they have a data loss, those data loss events take longer to recover and they cost more than a customer who's running a single vendor to protect all their workloads. Now, what happens when you partner with somebody who doesn't have that proven and modern coexistence capability for you to tap into? You're forced to then have another vendor in your mix to help you protect that modern workload or another vendor to stay with you, to help protect it, a proven workload that's not going anywhere for anytime soon. Plus entering more risks, more costs into your environment. Dell's really in a unique position with our proven and modern coexistence strategy, allowing our customers to remove that risk and have all the value unlocked so that they don't really have to worry about, hey, I got another use case. I'm going to Azure, I'm going to Amazon, I'm going to Google, I want it to back up on Chrome and want to replicate to the cloud. All that's covered with our solutions. There's no other vendors required. >> In that 2020 Global Data Protection Index research survey that you mentioned, an interesting stat that popped out to me is that about 80% of the respondents and I think there was about a thousand IT decision makers who have responded, over 80% said, we are using multiple data protection solutions. So presumably a big market opportunity for you guys. How do you go in, walk me through the strategy of helping a customer, either extract existing data protection solutions or maybe even coexist? >> Yeah. >> I'll use that word in a different route, What is that typical scenario like? If I can ask you to take something, I'm sure that's very broad, but maybe standardize it a bit? >> Yeah, so there are, you know, Dell's, in addition to this coexistence proven and modern strategy that we offer our customers, we have multiple ways for them to consume that strategy. One is software defined, another is integrated with our integrated data protection appliance and then we also have purpose-built technology. And so our ability to walk into a customer's environment and immediately add value by replacing one of the things that they use for data protection and our ability to support third-party allows them to easily transition off of something that they've been using for a while and onto our single vendor strategy. So we have, you know, the ability to deliver that capability right out of the gate, give them some value and then transition them over to a single vendor across all their work use cases. The other thing that you pointed out, is the opportunity is huge, you know, we have a number one share, according to IDC's recent poll for last year, but you know, the percentage of market share is, you know, we still have a lot of room to grow. So there's a lot of customers for us to continue to go help. And because of that, you know, it's all about getting to the customer with the message that, hey, I can help you now, I can help you remove risk and I can help you transition off of these multiple solutions to a single vendor. Some customers want to go really quickly, some want to go over time, and we are in a position to give them multiple options to make that journey happen. >> In this very interesting 2020 year that's unfolding, are you seeing more customers with the need to accelerate? As they have now, an expanding multi-cloud organization with, you know, traditional and emerging technologies. Are they coming to you saying help me actually get off of these multiple solutions? I understand the stats about the risks and the POS, is that acceleration point to me that you're seeing it as a trend? >> For sure, there's several things that happen in when you have a stress factor like we're dealing with now where, you know, the need to do more with less and to save money is more paramount now than it's ever been and so kind of some of the old things that stopped IT professionals from really transforming to get true cost savings if they go down this journey, you know, all those blockers are now kind of off the table and people are seriously looking at how do I reduce risks? How do I get myself in a situation where I'm partnered with a quality vendor? And then, how do I save money at the same time? And so we've done several things to help our customers with that process. One is we released a new a cloud subscription model that allows our customers to consume all of our functionality for much less than if they paid for all those individual piece parts, allowing them to take advantage of prepaying it upfront or paying on an annual basis so they can get some more cash to spend on other investments. And then our efficiencies have increased this year as well so systems that used to take up multiple racks can now be fit into a single rack and actually can store more data. So we're finding more value in the data center, while continuing to evolve that Cost to Serve strategy, then try to drive costs out of the environment and what we tend to find is when you consolidate multiple platforms, there's a lot of inefficiency in that. So there is a lot of savings initially if you go to one vendor, but then you know, when we go to our existing customers already done that, how do we then continue to save them more money, right? And, that's really the value that we're doing here. Now, the other thing I will tell you is in this pandemic, we're also seeing a real fight to security. And some of the value that we've unlocked for our customers with our cyber recovery solutions is also another key technology wave they've really gripped onto, with less physical people on site to help solve, you know, cyber recovery issue where they've maybe got impacted. They're really looking for vendor solutions that have that full coverage that can easily be implemented to allow them to quickly recover from an event. So, you know, when you combine those things together, we're really delivering some value and helping our customers both save money, transition and remove risk from their environments, which are key in this current market that we're in. >> Absolutely and I think the theme of this interview, Mark would be quantification. It really sounds like what Dell is able to do is show customers the hard numbers about significant benefits to their environment. So we thank you so much for walking us through that. There's a lot to unpack there, but this has been a great conversation. We appreciate your time, Mark. >> Thank you for having me. >> From Mark Sanders, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE with Dell technologies. Thanks for watching. (upbeat acoustic music)

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape the imperative to protect data has never been more pressing as companies transform themselves from businesses into digital businesses the intrinsic value of their data Rises exponentially the problem for infrastructure pros is that everything in IT is additive it seems like nothing ever dies which means more things to manage now think about that when you're protecting data you have bare metal VMs now containers you've got cloud you got to worry about the edge all this data needs to be protected not only does this increase complexity it expands the attack surface for adversaries wanting to steal or ransom your data at the heart of all this is a build out of a massively global distributed cloud we saw wave 1 of the cloud which was public wave 2 was really hybrid and that's evolving now in parallel you're seeing the emergence of multi cloud and as I said these earlier trends are additive they're not replacements and with me to discuss these important issues and how Dell EMC specifically is pivoting toward cloud data protection is Beth Phelan who was the president of Dell emcs Data Protection Division that's great to see you well good to be here again so we know the world is hybrid it's a fundamental the on-prem stuff is part of the fundamental digital digital transformations of these these companies and now you've got data protection for the cloud so what do you see happening in that world yeah let's start with what we're seeing in the market we recently remade our global data protection index we've been doing it for many years and we've been really using that to help us understand the landscape and what our customers need and first not surprisingly it shows that continued trend of movement and reliance towards cloud environments for business applications sure continuing to increase on top of that the customers despite that are continuing to struggle with ensuring they have the right data protection for their cloud environments right so they're they're struggling you see that we see that as well what what's going on there Wow what is the data tell you yeah first of all more than half the customers don't have a comprehensive data protection solution for their Salas cloud native and multi cloud environments more than two-thirds of the customers who may be relying on their cloud service providers for data protection say that they do not have a solution that covers all of their workloads so whether they're working with a cloud service provider or some other vendor they're being really clear that they do not have a comprehensive approach to cloud data protection yeah so I mean you see the cloud adoption is going like crazy but it seems like the data protection component is lagging how is that affecting the traction in your business yeah you know it's a double-edged sword right on one level customers see the advantages of moving to a cloud but on the other hand you know they are really looking for vendors that they can partner with to still have the same confidence that the data is protected that they have on Prem and what we're seeing now is that customers are turning to us to help solve that problem we have over a thousand customers using Dell EMC for their Cloud Data Protection and we're narrowing in on three exabytes of data that we're currently protecting in the cloud so it's happening yeah that's pretty good traction so I want to talk about VMware obviously VMware is the linchpin of many customers hybrid strategy and it's a clearly an important component of Dell technologies talk a little bit about the relationship between Dell EMC data protection specifically and VMware I'm interested in you know they've announced project tenzou and there's kubernetes how are you guys working together to really deliver a value for customers so we are super excited about the opportunity to work so closely with VMware because as their in their domain we're working directly with them and that's an advantage that comes with being part of the dell technologies family and so we were the first company to bring data protection for were kubernetes environments out to market it's available now so you'll see us bring that into the tan zoom mission-critical has been moved forward partnering closely with with VMware and of course we're already fully certified for VMware cloud it's really an ongoing regular conversation about how we can work together to bring the best to our customers so Beth I gotta ask you so you're part of your role as the leader of the the division is obviously you got a you got a lot of mouths to feed big division you got to make your plan you got to deliver for customers but strategy is another key component of this how do all these cloud trends shape your strategy so core to our strategy is to be the essential provider of data protection for multi cloud environments so no matter where customers are choosing to deploy their applications they can have the same confidence that they always did that that data is protected and the way they can get it back so that's core and if you want three words to remember for our strategy think VMware cloud and cyber cloud is central to it and you're gonna be hearing a lot more about it in the weeks and months ahead okay so I gotta ask you break out your binoculars maybe even the telescope what are the future what are the futures look like when you think about the division and the market so we've been talking about cloud for a long time but we are still in the middle of this journey customers are going to rely on the cloud even more for additional use cases and especially in the data protection space right now we're seeing backup to the cloud dr to the cloud but the future will include cyber resiliency that's leveraging cloud deployments you're also going to see more and more of an emphasis on people leveraging SAS for their software consumption and for us that means not only protecting SAS applications but it also means giving customers the option to consume data protection in a SAS model we already do that today with things like cloud snapshot manager with things like the power protect management and orchestration but you're going to see us do even more of that because they're just incredible benefits of people leveraging sass to consume their software data constantly evolving lamps landscape data protection has to evolve with it that thanks so much for her thank you thank you keep it right there we'll be right back right after this short break

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the cube now here's your host David on tape the imperative to protect data has never been more pressing as companies transform themselves from businesses into digital businesses the intrinsic value of their data Rises exponentially the problem for infrastructure pros is that everything in IT is additive it seems like nothing ever dies which means more things to manage now think about that when you're protecting data you have bare metal VMs now containers you've got cloud you got to worry about the edge all this data needs to be protected not only does this increase complexity it expands the attack surface for adversaries wanting to steal or ransom your data at the heart of all this is a build out of a massively global distributed cloud we saw wave 1 of the cloud which was public wave 2 was really hybrid and that's evolving now in parallel you're seeing the emergence of multi cloud and as I said these earlier trends are additive they're not replacements and with me to discuss these important issues and how Dell EMC specifically is pivoting toward cloud data protection is Beth Phelan who is the president of Dell emcs Data Protection Division that's great to see you well good to be here again so we know the world is hybrid it's a fundamental the on-prem stuff is part of the fundamental digital digital transformations of these these companies and now you've got data protection for the cloud so what do you see happening in that world yeah let's start with what we're seeing in the market we recently remade on our global data protection index we've been doing it for many years and we've been really using that to help us understand the landscape and what our customers need and first not surprisingly it shows that continued trend of movement and reliance towards cloud environments for business applications continuing to increase on top of that the customers despite that are continuing to struggle with ensuring they have the right data protection for their cloud environments right so they're they're struggling you see that we see that as well what what's going on there well what is the data tell you yeah first of all more than half of the customers don't have a comprehensive data protection solution for their Salas cloud native and multi cloud environments more than two-thirds of the customers who may be relying on their cloud service providers for data protection say that they do not have a solution that covers all of their workloads so whether they're working with a cloud service provider or some other vendor they're being really clear that they do not have a comprehensive approach to cloud data protection yeah so I mean you see the cloud adoption is going like crazy but it seems like the data protection component is lagging how is that affecting the traction in your business yeah you know it's a double-edged sword right on one level customers see the advantages of moving to a cloud on the other hand you know they are really looking for vendors that they can partner with to still have the same confidence that the data is protected that they have on Prem and what we're seeing now is that customers are turning to us to help solve that problem we have over a thousand customers using Dell EMC for their Cloud Data Protection and we're narrowing in on three exabyte the data that we're currently protecting in the cloud so it's happening yeah that's pretty good traction so I want to talk about VMware obviously VMware is the linchpin of many customers hybrid strategy and it's a clearly an important component of Dell technologies talk a little bit about the relationship between Dell EMC data protection specifically and VMware I'm interested in you know they've announced project tenzou and there's kubernetes how are you guys working together to really deliver a value for customers so we are super excited about the opportunity to work so closely with VMware because as they're cut in their domain we're working directly with them and that's an advantage that comes with being part of the dell technologies family and so we were the first company to bring data protection for were kubernetes environments out to market it's available now so you'll see us bring that into the tenzou mission-critical has been moved forward partnering closely with with vmware and of course we're already fully certified for vmware cloud it's really an ongoing regular conversation about how we can work together to bring the best to our customers so Beth I gotta ask you so you're part of your role as the leader of the the division is obviously you gotta get a lot of mouths to feed big division you got to make your plan you got to deliver for customers but strategy is another key component of this how do all these cloud trends shape your strategy so core to our strategy is to be the essential provider of data protection for multi cloud environments so no matter where customers are choosing to deploy their applications they can have the same confidence that they always did that that data is protected and the way they can get it back so that's core and if you want three words to remember for our strategy think VMware cloud and cyber cloud is central to it and you're going to be hearing a lot more about it in the weeks and months ahead okay so I gotta ask you break out your binoculars maybe even the telescope what are the future what are the future's look like when you think about the division and the market so we've been talking about cloud for a long time but we are still in the middle of this journey customers are going to rely on the cloud even more for additional use cases and especially in the data protection space right now we're seeing backup to the cloud dr to the cloud but the future will include cyber resiliency that's leveraging cloud deployments you're also going to see more and more of an emphasis on people leveraging SAS for their software consumption and for us that means not only protecting SAS applications but it also means giving customers the option to consume data protection in a SAS model we already do that today with things like cloud snapshot manager with things like the power protect management and orchestration but you're going to see us do even more of that because they're just incredible benefits of people leveraging sass to consume their software data constantly evolving lamps landscape data protection has to evolve with it Beth thanks so much for thank you and thank you keep it right there we'll be right back right after this short break from world famous cloud Studios Dell Technologies presents the world's number one show on data protection solutions for today's organizations it's proven in modern magazine with Jake and Emmy hello everyone and welcome to the premiere of PM magazine where we cover the proven Dell technology solutions that you've come to rely on and the latest modern innovation driving powerful data protection for the future I recently spent some quality time with one of our customers and I learned a thing or two about Dell proven data protection solutions let's watch the clip we've always relied on tell performance efficiency and scale to help us keep pace with our data protection needs but there's so much more for example we've been crushing it with Dell cloud data protection for backup to the cloud in cloud backup cloud tearing cloud dr uh-huh look at the picture it's a huge business advantage how so our costs are down we spend less time on management we're meeting our service levels and we have peace of mind that all of our data is protected right awesome did you talk about how Dells agile development approach is accelerating the speed at which we deliver customer value yes and how cloud capabilities will continue to grow yes and about VMware protection yes and cyber recovery yes I mean we covered all of that as well as the mega trends that require data protection with a modern approach well modern is exactly what our guests today are here to discuss Jake he is Ken fatale a noted data protection expert and joining us from the field on her vacation in the Bahamas is Barbara Penner of the data management Institute thank you both for being here so Ken what should our viewers think about when they hear the phrase modern data protection they should think new requirements for modern applications cloud native workloads Cubana is multi-cloud and data services to name a few Barbara would you add anything to that list I would add business service recovery on premises or in the cloud autonomous protection to auto detect and protect workloads across edge core and cloud infrastructure and lastly all of this must operate at global scale thank you both this is exactly where we're heading with Dell power protect solutions well it's time for a break but when we come back we've got something special in store for you don't we Jake I was hoping you forgot oh no someone learned how to make cream puffs and it did not turn out well for him yeah my apologies in advance to my mother who tried to show me around the kitchen but as you can see we'll be right back [Music] we're back with Rob and Rob Emslie who's the director of product marketing for Delhi MCS data protection division Rob good to see you hi Dave good to be back so we just heard from Beth about some of the momentum that you guys have from your perspective from a product angle what is really driving this yeah well one of the things that we've you know definitely seen is that as we talk to our customers both existing and new customers cloud journeys is is top of mind for all of the CIOs it's being driven by either the desire to drive efficiency take out costs and data protection is one of the the most common use cases and one of the things that we find is that there's four use cases for data protection that we see long term retention of data cloud disaster recovery backup to the cloud and the emerging desire to stand up new applications in the cloud that need to be protected so backup in the cloud really completes the four major use cases well one of the things I think is really important this market is that you deliver optionality to your customers so how are our customers enabling these use cases yeah so the the first two UK's first two use cases of long term retention and cleitus recovery is is really driven by our software on our appliances both of those are really predicated based upon the assumption that customers are going to deploy data protection on premises to protect their on-premises workloads and then it's here to the cloud or which is becoming more common used to cloud as a disaster recovery target you know it's delivered by our data protection software and that's either in a software form factor or that software delivered in an integrated appliance form factor so let's talk about purpose-built backup appliances I think you know our friends at IDC I think you know coined that they tracked that market for a while you guys have been a leader there the acquisition of data domain obviously put you in a really strong position give us the update there is it's still a vibrant market is it growing what's the size it's it look like yeah so as we look at 2020 you know IDC forecasts the market size to be a little under five billion dollars so it's still a very large market the overall market is growing at a little over four percent but the interesting thing is that if you think about how the market is is made up it's made up of two different types of appliances one is a target appliance such as data domain and the new power protect dd and the other is integrated appliances where you integrate the target appliance architecture with data protection software and it's the integrated appliance part of the market that is really growing faster than the other part of the of the people being market it's actually growing at 8% in fact IBC's projection is that by 2022 half of the purpose-built back to appliance market will be made up of integrated appliance solutions so it's growing at twice the overall market rate but you guys have two integrated appliances what why - how should people think about those yeah so a little under three years ago we introduced a new integrated appliance the called the integrated data protection appliance it was really the combination of our backup software with our data domain appliance architecture and the integrated air protection appliance has been our workhorse for the last three years really allowing us to to support that that fastest-growing segment of the market in fact last year the integrated air protection appliance grew by over a hundred percent so triple digit growth was great you know it's something that you know allows us to address all market segments all the way down to SMB all the way to the enterprise but last year one of the things you may remember at Delta Nadi's world is we introduced our power to protect portfolio you know and that constituted power protect data manager our new software to find platform as well as the delivery of packet there in an integrated appliance form-factor with perfectly x400 so that's really our our new scale out data protection appliance we've never had a scale out appliance in the architecture before in the portfolio before and that gives us the ability to offer customers choice scale up or scale out integrated and target and with the X 400 it's available is a hybrid configuration or it's also our first or flash architecture so really we're providing customers with the existing software solutions that we've had in the market for a long time an integrated form factor with the integrator protection appliance as well as the brand-new software platform that will really be our innovation engine that will be where we'll be looking at supporting new workloads and certainly leaning into how we support cloud air protection and the hybrid cloud reality of the next decade okay so one of the other things I want to explore is we've heard a lot about your new agile development organization Beth has talked about that a lot and the benefit obviously is you're more you're able to get products out more quickly respond to market changes but ultimately the proof is in translating that development into product what can you tell us about how that's progressing yep so certainly with Papa Tech Data Manager and the X 400 that really is the the epicenter of our agile product development activities you know we've moved to a three-month cadence for software releases so working to deliver a small batch releases into the market much more rapidly than we've ever done before in fact since we introduced palpitate Denham manager where we we shipped the first release in July we're now at the third iteration of palpitate Data Manager and therefore the third iteration of the x100 appliance so there's three things that you know I'd like to highlight within the x100 appliance specifically first is really the the exciting news that we've introduced support for kubernetes so we're really the first you know large enterprise data protection vendor to to lean into providing kubernetes data protection so that becomes the vitally important especially with the developments over our partner in VMware with vSphere 7 with the introduction of tan zoo and the reality is that customers will have both these fear virtual machines and kubernetes containers working side-by-side and both of those environments need to be protected soap a patek denim algae and the x400 appliance has that support available now for customers to take advantage of second we talked about long-term retention of of data in the cloud the x100 appliance has just received the capabilities to also take part in long term retention to AWS so those are two very important cloud capabilities that are brand-new with the excellent appliance and then finally we introduced yet 400 appliance with a maximum configuration of four capacity cubes rough-and-tough that was 400 terabytes of usable capacity we've just introduced support of 12 capacity cubes so that gives the customers the ability to scale out the x100 appliance from 64 terabytes all the way to over a petabyte storage so now if you look at our two integrated appliances we now cover the landscape from small numbers of terabytes all the way through to a petabyte of capacity whether or not you pick a scale up architecture or a scale length architecture yeah so that really comes back to the point I was making about optionality and kubernetes is key it's gonna be a linchpin obviously a portability for multi cloud sets that up as we've said it's it's not the be-all end-all but it's a really necessary condition to enable multi cloud which is fundamental to your strategy absolutely alright Rob thanks very much for coming on the cube it's great to have you thanks Dave and thank you for watching everybody this is Dave Volante for the cube we'll see you next time [Music]