>>Collibra is a company that was founded in 2008 right before the so-called modern big data era kicked into high gear. The company was one of the first to focus its business on data governance. Now, historically, data governance and data quality initiatives, they were back office functions and they were largely confined to regulatory regulated industries that had to comply with public policy mandates. But as the cloud went mainstream, the tech giants showed us how valuable data could become and the value proposition for data quality and trust. It evolved from primarily a compliance driven issue to becoming a lynchpin of competitive advantage. But data in the decade of the 2010s was largely about getting the technology to work. You had these highly centralized technical teams that were formed and they had hyper specialized skills to develop data architectures and processes to serve the myriad data needs of organizations. >>And it resulted in a lot of frustration with data initiatives for most organizations that didn't have the resources of the cloud guys and the social media giants to really attack their data problems and turn data into gold. This is why today for example, this quite a bit of momentum to rethinking monolithic data architectures. You see, you hear about initiatives like data mesh and the idea of data as a product. They're gaining traction as a way to better serve the the data needs of decentralized business Uni users, you hear a lot about data democratization. So these decentralization efforts around data, they're great, but they create a new set of problems. Specifically, how do you deliver like a self-service infrastructure to business users and domain experts? Now the cloud is definitely helping with that, but also how do you automate governance? This becomes especially tricky as protecting data privacy has become more and more important. >>In other words, while it's enticing to experiment and run fast and loose with data initiatives kinda like the Wild West, to find new veins of gold, it has to be done responsibly. As such, the idea of data governance has had to evolve to become more automated. And intelligence governance and data lineage is still fundamental to ensuring trust as data. It moves like water through an organization. No one is gonna use data that isn't trusted. Metadata has become increasingly important for data discovery and data classification. As data flows through an organization, the continuously ability to check for data flaws and automating that data quality, they become a functional requirement of any modern data management platform. And finally, data privacy has become a critical adjacency to cyber security. So you can see how data governance has evolved into a much richer set of capabilities than it was 10 or 15 years ago. >>Hello and welcome to the Cube's coverage of Data Citizens made possible by Calibra, a leader in so-called Data intelligence and the host of Data Citizens 2022, which is taking place in San Diego. My name is Dave Ante and I'm one of the hosts of our program, which is running in parallel to data citizens. Now at the Cube we like to say we extract the signal from the noise, and over the, the next couple of days, we're gonna feature some of the themes from the keynote speakers at Data Citizens and we'll hear from several of the executives. Felix Von Dala, who is the co-founder and CEO of Collibra, will join us along with one of the other founders of Collibra, Stan Christians, who's gonna join my colleague Lisa Martin. I'm gonna also sit down with Laura Sellers, she's the Chief Product Officer at Collibra. We'll talk about some of the, the announcements and innovations they're making at the event, and then we'll dig in further to data quality with Kirk Hasselbeck. >>He's the vice president of Data quality at Collibra. He's an amazingly smart dude who founded Owl dq, a company that he sold to Col to Collibra last year. Now many companies, they didn't make it through the Hado era, you know, they missed the industry waves and they became Driftwood. Collibra, on the other hand, has evolved its business. They've leveraged the cloud, expanded its product portfolio, and leaned in heavily to some major partnerships with cloud providers, as well as receiving a strategic investment from Snowflake earlier this year. So it's a really interesting story that we're thrilled to be sharing with you. Thanks for watching and I hope you enjoy the program. >>Last year, the Cube Covered Data Citizens Collibra's customer event. And the premise that we put forth prior to that event was that despite all the innovation that's gone on over the last decade or more with data, you know, starting with the Hado movement, we had data lakes, we'd spark the ascendancy of programming languages like Python, the introduction of frameworks like TensorFlow, the rise of ai, low code, no code, et cetera. Businesses still find it's too difficult to get more value from their data initiatives. And we said at the time, you know, maybe it's time to rethink data innovation. While a lot of the effort has been focused on, you know, more efficiently storing and processing data, perhaps more energy needs to go into thinking about the people and the process side of the equation, meaning making it easier for domain experts to both gain insights for data, trust the data, and begin to use that data in new ways, fueling data, products, monetization and insights data citizens 2022 is back and we're pleased to have Felix Van Dema, who is the founder and CEO of Collibra. He's on the cube or excited to have you, Felix. Good to see you again. >>Likewise Dave. Thanks for having me again. >>You bet. All right, we're gonna get the update from Felix on the current data landscape, how he sees it, why data intelligence is more important now than ever and get current on what Collibra has been up to over the past year and what's changed since Data Citizens 2021. And we may even touch on some of the product news. So Felix, we're living in a very different world today with businesses and consumers. They're struggling with things like supply chains, uncertain economic trends, and we're not just snapping back to the 2010s. That's clear, and that's really true as well in the world of data. So what's different in your mind, in the data landscape of the 2020s from the previous decade, and what challenges does that bring for your customers? >>Yeah, absolutely. And, and I think you said it well, Dave, and and the intro that that rising complexity and fragmentation in the broader data landscape, that hasn't gotten any better over the last couple of years. When when we talk to our customers, that level of fragmentation, the complexity, how do we find data that we can trust, that we know we can use has only gotten kinda more, more difficult. So that trend that's continuing, I think what is changing is that trend has become much more acute. Well, the other thing we've seen over the last couple of years is that the level of scrutiny that organizations are under respect to data, as data becomes more mission critical, as data becomes more impactful than important, the level of scrutiny with respect to privacy, security, regulatory compliance, as only increasing as well, which again, is really difficult in this environment of continuous innovation, continuous change, continuous growing complexity and fragmentation. >>So it's become much more acute. And, and to your earlier point, we do live in a different world and and the the past couple of years we could probably just kind of brute for it, right? We could focus on, on the top line. There was enough kind of investments to be, to be had. I think nowadays organizations are focused or are, are, are, are, are, are in a very different environment where there's much more focus on cost control, productivity, efficiency, How do we truly get value from that data? So again, I think it just another incentive for organization to now truly look at data and to scale it data, not just from a a technology and infrastructure perspective, but how do you actually scale data from an organizational perspective, right? You said at the the people and process, how do we do that at scale? And that's only, only only becoming much more important. And we do believe that the, the economic environment that we find ourselves in today is gonna be catalyst for organizations to really dig out more seriously if, if, if, if you will, than they maybe have in the have in the best. >>You know, I don't know when you guys founded Collibra, if, if you had a sense as to how complicated it was gonna get, but you've been on a mission to really address these problems from the beginning. How would you describe your, your, your mission and what are you doing to address these challenges? >>Yeah, absolutely. We, we started Colli in 2008. So in some sense and the, the last kind of financial crisis, and that was really the, the start of Colli where we found product market fit, working with large finance institutions to help them cope with the increasing compliance requirements that they were faced with because of the, of the financial crisis and kind of here we are again in a very different environment, of course 15 years, almost 15 years later. But data only becoming more important. But our mission to deliver trusted data for every user, every use case and across every source, frankly, has only become more important. So what has been an incredible journey over the last 14, 15 years, I think we're still relatively early in our mission to again, be able to provide everyone, and that's why we call it data citizens. We truly believe that everyone in the organization should be able to use trusted data in an easy, easy matter. That mission is is only becoming more important, more relevant. We definitely have a lot more work ahead of us because we are still relatively early in that, in that journey. >>Well, that's interesting because, you know, in my observation it takes seven to 10 years to actually build a company and then the fact that you're still in the early days is kind of interesting. I mean, you, Collibra's had a good 12 months or so since we last spoke at Data Citizens. Give us the latest update on your business. What do people need to know about your, your current momentum? >>Yeah, absolutely. Again, there's, there's a lot of tail organizations that are only maturing the data practices and we've seen it kind of transform or, or, or influence a lot of our business growth that we've seen, broader adoption of the platform. We work at some of the largest organizations in the world where it's Adobe, Heineken, Bank of America, and many more. We have now over 600 enterprise customers, all industry leaders and every single vertical. So it's, it's really exciting to see that and continue to partner with those organizations. On the partnership side, again, a lot of momentum in the org in, in the, in the markets with some of the cloud partners like Google, Amazon, Snowflake, data bricks and, and others, right? As those kind of new modern data infrastructures, modern data architectures that are definitely all moving to the cloud, a great opportunity for us, our partners and of course our customers to help them kind of transition to the cloud even faster. >>And so we see a lot of excitement and momentum there within an acquisition about 18 months ago around data quality, data observability, which we believe is an enormous opportunity. Of course, data quality isn't new, but I think there's a lot of reasons why we're so excited about quality and observability now. One is around leveraging ai, machine learning, again to drive more automation. And the second is that those data pipelines that are now being created in the cloud, in these modern data architecture arch architectures, they've become mission critical. They've become real time. And so monitoring, observing those data pipelines continuously has become absolutely critical so that they're really excited about about that as well. And on the organizational side, I'm sure you've heard a term around kind of data mesh, something that's gaining a lot of momentum, rightfully so. It's really the type of governance that we always believe. Then federated focused on domains, giving a lot of ownership to different teams. I think that's the way to scale data organizations. And so that aligns really well with our vision and, and from a product perspective, we've seen a lot of momentum with our customers there as well. >>Yeah, you know, a couple things there. I mean, the acquisition of i l dq, you know, Kirk Hasselbeck and, and their team, it's interesting, you know, the whole data quality used to be this back office function and, and really confined to highly regulated industries. It's come to the front office, it's top of mind for chief data officers, data mesh. You mentioned you guys are a connective tissue for all these different nodes on the data mesh. That's key. And of course we see you at all the shows. You're, you're a critical part of many ecosystems and you're developing your own ecosystem. So let's chat a little bit about the, the products. We're gonna go deeper in into products later on at, at Data Citizens 22, but we know you're debuting some, some new innovations, you know, whether it's, you know, the, the the under the covers in security, sort of making data more accessible for people just dealing with workflows and processes as you talked about earlier. Tell us a little bit about what you're introducing. >>Yeah, absolutely. We're super excited, a ton of innovation. And if we think about the big theme and like, like I said, we're still relatively early in this, in this journey towards kind of that mission of data intelligence that really bolts and compelling mission, either customers are still start, are just starting on that, on that journey. We wanna make it as easy as possible for the, for our organization to actually get started because we know that's important that they do. And for our organization and customers that have been with us for some time, there's still a tremendous amount of opportunity to kind of expand the platform further. And again, to make it easier for really to, to accomplish that mission and vision around that data citizen that everyone has access to trustworthy data in a very easy, easy way. So that's really the theme of a lot of the innovation that we're driving. >>A lot of kind of ease of adoption, ease of use, but also then how do we make sure that lio becomes this kind of mission critical enterprise platform from a security performance architecture scale supportability that we're truly able to deliver that kind of an enterprise mission critical platform. And so that's the big theme from an innovation perspective, From a product perspective, a lot of new innovation that we're really excited about. A couple of highlights. One is around data marketplace. Again, a lot of our customers have plans in that direction, how to make it easy. How do we make, how do we make available to true kind of shopping experience that anybody in your organization can, in a very easy search first way, find the right data product, find the right dataset, that data can then consume usage analytics. How do you, how do we help organizations drive adoption, tell them where they're working really well and where they have opportunities homepages again to, to make things easy for, for people, for anyone in your organization to kind of get started with ppia, you mentioned workflow designer, again, we have a very powerful enterprise platform. >>One of our key differentiators is the ability to really drive a lot of automation through workflows. And now we provided a new low code, no code kind of workflow designer experience. So, so really customers can take it to the next level. There's a lot more new product around K Bear Protect, which in partnership with Snowflake, which has been a strategic investor in kib, focused on how do we make access governance easier? How do we, how do we, how are we able to make sure that as you move to the cloud, things like access management, masking around sensitive data, PII data is managed as much more effective, effective rate, really excited about that product. There's more around data quality. Again, how do we, how do we get that deployed as easily and quickly and widely as we can? Moving that to the cloud has been a big part of our strategy. >>So we launch more data quality cloud product as well as making use of those, those native compute capabilities in platforms like Snowflake, Data, Bricks, Google, Amazon, and others. And so we are bettering a capability, a capability that we call push down. So actually pushing down the computer and data quality, the monitoring into the underlying platform, which again, from a scale performance and ease of use perspective is gonna make a massive difference. And then more broadly, we, we talked a little bit about the ecosystem. Again, integrations, we talk about being able to connect to every source. Integrations are absolutely critical and we're really excited to deliver new integrations with Snowflake, Azure and Google Cloud storage as well. So there's a lot coming out. The, the team has been work at work really hard and we are really, really excited about what we are coming, what we're bringing to markets. >>Yeah, a lot going on there. I wonder if you could give us your, your closing thoughts. I mean, you, you talked about, you know, the marketplace, you know, you think about data mesh, you think of data as product, one of the key principles you think about monetization. This is really different than what we've been used to in data, which is just getting the technology to work has been been so hard. So how do you see sort of the future and, you know, give us the, your closing thoughts please? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think we we're really at this pivotal moment, and I think you said it well. We, we all know the constraint and the challenges with data, how to actually do data at scale. And while we've seen a ton of innovation on the infrastructure side, we fundamentally believe that just getting a faster database is important, but it's not gonna fully solve the challenges and truly kind of deliver on the opportunity. And that's why now is really the time to deliver this data intelligence vision, this data intelligence platform. We are still early, making it as easy as we can. It's kind of, of our, it's our mission. And so I'm really, really excited to see what we, what we are gonna, how the marks gonna evolve over the next, next few quarters and years. I think the trend is clearly there when we talk about data mesh, this kind of federated approach folks on data products is just another signal that we believe that a lot of our organization are now at the time. >>The understanding need to go beyond just the technology. I really, really think about how do we actually scale data as a business function, just like we've done with it, with, with hr, with, with sales and marketing, with finance. That's how we need to think about data. I think now is the time given the economic environment that we are in much more focus on control, much more focused on productivity efficiency and now's the time. We need to look beyond just the technology and infrastructure to think of how to scale data, how to manage data at scale. >>Yeah, it's a new era. The next 10 years of data won't be like the last, as I always say. Felix, thanks so much and good luck in, in San Diego. I know you're gonna crush it out there. >>Thank you Dave. >>Yeah, it's a great spot for an in-person event and, and of course the content post event is gonna be available@collibra.com and you can of course catch the cube coverage@thecube.net and all the news@siliconangle.com. This is Dave Valante for the cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>Hi, I'm Jay from Collibra's Data Office. Today I want to talk to you about Collibra's data intelligence cloud. We often say Collibra is a single system of engagement for all of your data. Now, when I say data, I mean data in the broadest sense of the word, including reference and metadata. Think of metrics, reports, APIs, systems, policies, and even business processes that produce or consume data. Now, the beauty of this platform is that it ensures all of your users have an easy way to find, understand, trust, and access data. But how do you get started? Well, here are seven steps to help you get going. One, start with the data. What's data intelligence? Without data leverage the Collibra data catalog to automatically profile and classify your enterprise data wherever that data lives, databases, data lakes or data warehouses, whether on the cloud or on premise. >>Two, you'll then wanna organize the data and you'll do that with data communities. This can be by department, find a business or functional team, however your organization organizes work and accountability. And for that you'll establish community owners, communities, make it easy for people to navigate through the platform, find the data and will help create a sense of belonging for users. An important and related side note here, we find it's typical in many organizations that data is thought of is just an asset and IT and data offices are viewed as the owners of it and who are really the central teams performing analytics as a service provider to the enterprise. We believe data is more than an asset, it's a true product that can be converted to value. And that also means establishing business ownership of data where that strategy and ROI come together with subject matter expertise. >>Okay, three. Next, back to those communities there, the data owners should explain and define their data, not just the tables and columns, but also the related business terms, metrics and KPIs. These objects we call these assets are typically organized into business glossaries and data dictionaries. I definitely recommend starting with the topics that are most important to the business. Four, those steps that enable you and your users to have some fun with it. Linking everything together builds your knowledge graph and also known as a metadata graph by linking or relating these assets together. For example, a data set to a KPI to a report now enables your users to see what we call the lineage diagram that visualizes where the data in your dashboards actually came from and what the data means and who's responsible for it. Speaking of which, here's five. Leverage the calibra trusted business reporting solution on the marketplace, which comes with workflows for those owners to certify their reports, KPIs, and data sets. >>This helps them force their trust in their data. Six, easy to navigate dashboards or landing pages right in your platform for your company's business processes are the most effective way for everyone to better understand and take action on data. Here's a pro tip, use the dashboard design kit on the marketplace to help you build compelling dashboards. Finally, seven, promote the value of this to your users and be sure to schedule enablement office hours and new employee onboarding sessions to get folks excited about what you've built and implemented. Better yet, invite all of those community and data owners to these sessions so that they can show off the value that they've created. Those are my seven tips to get going with Collibra. I hope these have been useful. For more information, be sure to visit collibra.com. >>Welcome to the Cube's coverage of Data Citizens 2022 Collibra's customer event. My name is Dave Valante. With us is Kirk Hasselbeck, who's the vice president of Data Quality of Collibra Kirk, good to see you. Welcome. >>Thanks for having me, Dave. Excited to be here. >>You bet. Okay, we're gonna discuss data quality observability. It's a hot trend right now. You founded a data quality company, OWL dq, and it was acquired by Collibra last year. Congratulations. And now you lead data quality at Collibra. So we're hearing a lot about data quality right now. Why is it such a priority? Take us through your thoughts on that. >>Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's definitely exciting times for data quality, which you're right, has been around for a long time. So why now and why is it so much more exciting than it used to be? I think it's a bit stale, but we all know that companies use more data than ever before and the variety has changed and the volume has grown. And, and while I think that remains true, there are a couple other hidden factors at play that everyone's so interested in as, as to why this is becoming so important now. And, and I guess you could kind of break this down simply and think about if Dave, you and I were gonna build, you know, a new healthcare application and monitor the heartbeat of individuals, imagine if we get that wrong, you know, what the ramifications could be, what, what those incidents would look like, or maybe better yet, we try to build a, a new trading algorithm with a crossover strategy where the 50 day crosses the, the 10 day average. >>And imagine if the data underlying the inputs to that is incorrect. We will probably have major financial ramifications in that sense. So, you know, it kind of starts there where everybody's realizing that we're all data companies and if we are using bad data, we're likely making incorrect business decisions. But I think there's kind of two other things at play. You know, I, I bought a car not too long ago and my dad called and said, How many cylinders does it have? And I realized in that moment, you know, I might have failed him because, cause I didn't know. And, and I used to ask those types of questions about any lock brakes and cylinders and, and you know, if it's manual or, or automatic and, and I realized I now just buy a car that I hope works. And it's so complicated with all the computer chips, I, I really don't know that much about it. >>And, and that's what's happening with data. We're just loading so much of it. And it's so complex that the way companies consume them in the IT function is that they bring in a lot of data and then they syndicate it out to the business. And it turns out that the, the individuals loading and consuming all of this data for the company actually may not know that much about the data itself, and that's not even their job anymore. So we'll talk more about that in a minute, but that's really what's setting the foreground for this observability play and why everybody's so interested. It, it's because we're becoming less close to the intricacies of the data and we just expect it to always be there and be correct. >>You know, the other thing too about data quality, and for years we did the MIT CDO IQ event, we didn't do it last year, Covid messed everything up. But the observation I would make there thoughts is, is it data quality? Used to be information quality used to be this back office function, and then it became sort of front office with financial services and government and healthcare, these highly regulated industries. And then the whole chief data officer thing happened and people were realizing, well, they sort of flipped the bit from sort of a data as a, a risk to data as a, as an asset. And now as we say, we're gonna talk about observability. And so it's really become front and center just the whole quality issue because data's so fundamental, hasn't it? >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, let's imagine we pull up our phones right now and I go to my, my favorite stock ticker app and I check out the NASDAQ market cap. I really have no idea if that's the correct number. I know it's a number, it looks large, it's in a numeric field. And, and that's kind of what's going on. There's, there's so many numbers and they're coming from all of these different sources and data providers and they're getting consumed and passed along. But there isn't really a way to tactically put controls on every number and metric across every field we plan to monitor, but with the scale that we've achieved in early days, even before calibra. And what's been so exciting is we have these types of observation techniques, these data monitors that can actually track past performance of every field at scale. And why that's so interesting and why I think the CDO is, is listening right intently nowadays to this topic is, so maybe we could surface all of these problems with the right solution of data observability and with the right scale and then just be alerted on breaking trends. So we're sort of shifting away from this world of must write a condition and then when that condition breaks, that was always known as a break record. But what about breaking trends and root cause analysis? And is it possible to do that, you know, with less human intervention? And so I think most people are seeing now that it's going to have to be a software tool and a computer system. It's, it's not ever going to be based on one or two domain experts anymore. >>So, So how does data observability relate to data quality? Are they sort of two sides of the same coin? Are they, are they cousins? What's your perspective on that? >>Yeah, it's, it's super interesting. It's an emerging market. So the language is changing a lot of the topic and areas changing the way that I like to say it or break it down because the, the lingo is constantly moving is, you know, as a target on this space is really breaking records versus breaking trends. And I could write a condition when this thing happens, it's wrong and when it doesn't it's correct. Or I could look for a trend and I'll give you a good example. You know, everybody's talking about fresh data and stale data and, and why would that matter? Well, if your data never arrived or only part of it arrived or didn't arrive on time, it's likely stale and there will not be a condition that you could write that would show you all the good in the bads. That was kind of your, your traditional approach of data quality break records. But your modern day approach is you lost a significant portion of your data, or it did not arrive on time to make that decision accurately on time. And that's a hidden concern. Some people call this freshness, we call it stale data, but it all points to the same idea of the thing that you're observing may not be a data quality condition anymore. It may be a breakdown in the data pipeline. And with thousands of data pipelines in play for every company out there there, there's more than a couple of these happening every day. >>So what's the Collibra angle on all this stuff made the acquisition, you got data quality observability coming together, you guys have a lot of expertise in, in this area, but you hear providence of data, you just talked about, you know, stale data, you know, the, the whole trend toward real time. How is Calibra approaching the problem and what's unique about your approach? >>Well, I think where we're fortunate is with our background, myself and team, we sort of lived this problem for a long time, you know, in, in the Wall Street days about a decade ago. And we saw it from many different angles. And what we came up with before it was called data observability or reliability was basically the, the underpinnings of that. So we're a little bit ahead of the curve there when most people evaluate our solution, it's more advanced than some of the observation techniques that that currently exist. But we've also always covered data quality and we believe that people want to know more, they need more insights, and they want to see break records and breaking trends together so they can correlate the root cause. And we hear that all the time. I have so many things going wrong, just show me the big picture, help me find the thing that if I were to fix it today would make the most impact. So we're really focused on root cause analysis, business impact, connecting it with lineage and catalog metadata. And as that grows, you can actually achieve total data governance at this point with the acquisition of what was a Lineage company years ago, and then my company Ldq now Collibra, Data quality Collibra may be the best positioned for total data governance and intelligence in the space. >>Well, you mentioned financial services a couple of times and some examples, remember the flash crash in 2010. Nobody had any idea what that was, you know, they just said, Oh, it's a glitch, you know, so they didn't understand the root cause of it. So this is a really interesting topic to me. So we know at Data Citizens 22 that you're announcing, you gotta announce new products, right? You're yearly event what's, what's new. Give us a sense as to what products are coming out, but specifically around data quality and observability. >>Absolutely. There's this, you know, there's always a next thing on the forefront. And the one right now is these hyperscalers in the cloud. So you have databases like Snowflake and Big Query and Data Bricks is Delta Lake and SQL Pushdown. And ultimately what that means is a lot of people are storing in loading data even faster in a SaaS like model. And we've started to hook in to these databases. And while we've always worked with the the same databases in the past, they're supported today we're doing something called Native Database pushdown, where the entire compute and data activity happens in the database. And why that is so interesting and powerful now is everyone's concerned with something called Egress. Did your, my data that I've spent all this time and money with my security team securing ever leave my hands, did it ever leave my secure VPC as they call it? >>And with these native integrations that we're building and about to unveil, here's kind of a sneak peek for, for next week at Data Citizens. We're now doing all compute and data operations in databases like Snowflake. And what that means is with no install and no configuration, you could log into the Collibra data quality app and have all of your data quality running inside the database that you've probably already picked as your your go forward team selection secured database of choice. So we're really excited about that. And I think if you look at the whole landscape of network cost, egress, cost, data storage and compute, what people are realizing is it's extremely efficient to do it in the way that we're about to release here next week. >>So this is interesting because what you just described, you know, you mentioned Snowflake, you mentioned Google, Oh actually you mentioned yeah, data bricks. You know, Snowflake has the data cloud. If you put everything in the data cloud, okay, you're cool, but then Google's got the open data cloud. If you heard, you know, Google next and now data bricks doesn't call it the data cloud, but they have like the open source data cloud. So you have all these different approaches and there's really no way up until now I'm, I'm hearing to, to really understand the relationships between all those and have confidence across, you know, it's like Jak Dani, you should just be a note on the mesh. And I don't care if it's a data warehouse or a data lake or where it comes from, but it's a point on that mesh and I need tooling to be able to have confidence that my data is governed and has the proper lineage, providence. And, and, and that's what you're bringing to the table, Is that right? Did I get that right? >>Yeah, that's right. And it's, for us, it's, it's not that we haven't been working with those great cloud databases, but it's the fact that we can send them the instructions now, we can send them the, the operating ability to crunch all of the calculations, the governance, the quality, and get the answers. And what that's doing, it's basically zero network costs, zero egress cost, zero latency of time. And so when you were to log into Big Query tomorrow using our tool or like, or say Snowflake for example, you have instant data quality metrics, instant profiling, instant lineage and access privacy controls, things of that nature that just become less onerous. What we're seeing is there's so much technology out there, just like all of the major brands that you mentioned, but how do we make it easier? The future is about less clicks, faster time to value, faster scale, and eventually lower cost. And, and we think that this positions us to be the leader there. >>I love this example because, you know, Barry talks about, wow, the cloud guys are gonna own the world and, and of course now we're seeing that the ecosystem is finding so much white space to add value, connect across cloud. Sometimes we call it super cloud and so, or inter clouding. All right, Kirk, give us your, your final thoughts and on on the trends that we've talked about and Data Citizens 22. >>Absolutely. Well, I think, you know, one big trend is discovery and classification. Seeing that across the board, people used to know it was a zip code and nowadays with the amount of data that's out there, they wanna know where everything is, where their sensitive data is. If it's redundant, tell me everything inside of three to five seconds. And with that comes, they want to know in all of these hyperscale databases how fast they can get controls and insights out of their tools. So I think we're gonna see more one click solutions, more SAS based solutions and solutions that hopefully prove faster time to value on, on all of these modern cloud platforms. >>Excellent. All right, Kurt Hasselbeck, thanks so much for coming on the Cube and previewing Data Citizens 22. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for having me, Dave. >>You're welcome. Right, and thank you for watching. Keep it right there for more coverage from the Cube. Welcome to the Cube's virtual Coverage of Data Citizens 2022. My name is Dave Valante and I'm here with Laura Sellers, who's the Chief Product Officer at Collibra, the host of Data Citizens. Laura, welcome. Good to see you. >>Thank you. Nice to be here. >>Yeah, your keynote at Data Citizens this year focused on, you know, your mission to drive ease of use and scale. Now when I think about historically fast access to the right data at the right time in a form that's really easily consumable, it's been kind of challenging, especially for business users. Can can you explain to our audience why this matters so much and what's actually different today in the data ecosystem to make this a reality? >>Yeah, definitely. So I think what we really need and what I hear from customers every single day is that we need a new approach to data management and our product teams. What inspired me to come to Calibra a little bit a over a year ago was really the fact that they're very focused on bringing trusted data to more users across more sources for more use cases. And so as we look at what we're announcing with these innovations of ease of use and scale, it's really about making teams more productive in getting started with and the ability to manage data across the entire organization. So we've been very focused on richer experiences, a broader ecosystem of partners, as well as a platform that delivers performance, scale and security that our users and teams need and demand. So as we look at, Oh, go ahead. >>I was gonna say, you know, when I look back at like the last 10 years, it was all about getting the technology to work and it was just so complicated. But, but please carry on. I'd love to hear more about this. >>Yeah, I, I really, you know, Collibra is a system of engagement for data and we really are working on bringing that entire system of engagement to life for everyone to leverage here and now. So what we're announcing from our ease of use side of the world is first our data marketplace. This is the ability for all users to discover and access data quickly and easily shop for it, if you will. The next thing that we're also introducing is the new homepage. It's really about the ability to drive adoption and have users find data more quickly. And then the two more areas of the ease of use side of the world is our world of usage analytics. And one of the big pushes and passions we have at Collibra is to help with this data driven culture that all companies are trying to create. And also helping with data literacy, with something like usage analytics, it's really about driving adoption of the CLE platform, understanding what's working, who's accessing it, what's not. And then finally we're also introducing what's called workflow designer. And we love our workflows at Libra, it's a big differentiator to be able to automate business processes. The designer is really about a way for more people to be able to create those workflows, collaborate on those workflow flows, as well as people to be able to easily interact with them. So a lot of exciting things when it comes to ease of use to make it easier for all users to find data. >>Y yes, there's definitely a lot to unpack there. I I, you know, you mentioned this idea of, of of, of shopping for the data. That's interesting to me. Why this analogy, metaphor or analogy, I always get those confused. I let's go with analogy. Why is it so important to data consumers? >>I think when you look at the world of data, and I talked about this system of engagement, it's really about making it more accessible to the masses. And what users are used to is a shopping experience like your Amazon, if you will. And so having a consumer grade experience where users can quickly go in and find the data, trust that data, understand where the data's coming from, and then be able to quickly access it, is the idea of being able to shop for it, just making it as simple as possible and really speeding the time to value for any of the business analysts, data analysts out there. >>Yeah, I think when you, you, you see a lot of discussion about rethinking data architectures, putting data in the hands of the users and business people, decentralized data and of course that's awesome. I love that. But of course then you have to have self-service infrastructure and you have to have governance. And those are really challenging. And I think so many organizations, they're facing adoption challenges, you know, when it comes to enabling teams generally, especially domain experts to adopt new data technologies, you know, like the, the tech comes fast and furious. You got all these open source projects and get really confusing. Of course it risks security, governance and all that good stuff. You got all this jargon. So where do you see, you know, the friction in adopting new data technologies? What's your point of view and how can organizations overcome these challenges? >>You're, you're dead on. There's so much technology and there's so much to stay on top of, which is part of the friction, right? It's just being able to stay ahead of, of and understand all the technologies that are coming. You also look at as there's so many more sources of data and people are migrating data to the cloud and they're migrating to new sources. Where the friction comes is really that ability to understand where the data came from, where it's moving to, and then also to be able to put the access controls on top of it. So people are only getting access to the data that they should be getting access to. So one of the other things we're announcing with, with all of the innovations that are coming is what we're doing around performance and scale. So with all of the data movement, with all of the data that's out there, the first thing we're launching in the world of performance and scale is our world of data quality. >>It's something that Collibra has been working on for the past year and a half, but we're launching the ability to have data quality in the cloud. So it's currently an on-premise offering, but we'll now be able to carry that over into the cloud for us to manage that way. We're also introducing the ability to push down data quality into Snowflake. So this is, again, one of those challenges is making sure that that data that you have is d is is high quality as you move forward. And so really another, we're just reducing friction. You already have Snowflake stood up. It's not another machine for you to manage, it's just push down capabilities into Snowflake to be able to track that quality. Another thing that we're launching with that is what we call Collibra Protect. And this is that ability for users to be able to ingest metadata, understand where the PII data is, and then set policies up on top of it. So very quickly be able to set policies and have them enforced at the data level. So anybody in the organization is only getting access to the data they should have access to. >>Here's Topica data quality is interesting. It's something that I've followed for a number of years. It used to be a back office function, you know, and really confined only to highly regulated industries like financial services and healthcare and government. You know, you look back over a decade ago, you didn't have this worry about personal information, g gdpr, and, you know, California Consumer Privacy Act all becomes, becomes so much important. The cloud is really changed things in terms of performance and scale and of course partnering for, for, with Snowflake it's all about sharing data and monetization, anything but a back office function. So it was kind of smart that you guys were early on and of course attracting them and as a, as an investor as well was very strong validation. What can you tell us about the nature of the relationship with Snowflake and specifically inter interested in sort of joint engineering or, and product innovation efforts, you know, beyond the standard go to market stuff? >>Definitely. So you mentioned there were a strategic investor in Calibra about a year ago. A little less than that I guess. We've been working with them though for over a year really tightly with their product and engineering teams to make sure that Collibra is adding real value. Our unified platform is touching pieces of our unified platform or touching all pieces of Snowflake. And when I say that, what I mean is we're first, you know, able to ingest data with Snowflake, which, which has always existed. We're able to profile and classify that data we're announcing with Calibra Protect this week that you're now able to create those policies on top of Snowflake and have them enforce. So again, people can get more value out of their snowflake more quickly as far as time to value with, with our policies for all business users to be able to create. >>We're also announcing Snowflake Lineage 2.0. So this is the ability to take stored procedures in Snowflake and understand the lineage of where did the data come from, how was it transformed with within Snowflake as well as the data quality. Pushdown, as I mentioned, data quality, you brought it up. It is a new, it is a, a big industry push and you know, one of the things I think Gartner mentioned is people are losing up to $15 million without having great data quality. So this push down capability for Snowflake really is again, a big ease of use push for us at Collibra of that ability to, to push it into snowflake, take advantage of the data, the data source, and the engine that already lives there and get the right and make sure you have the right quality. >>I mean, the nice thing about Snowflake, if you play in the Snowflake sandbox, you, you, you, you can get sort of a, you know, high degree of confidence that the data sharing can be done in a safe way. Bringing, you know, Collibra into the, into the story allows me to have that data quality and, and that governance that I, that I need. You know, we've said many times on the cube that one of the notable differences in cloud this decade versus last decade, I mean ob there are obvious differences just in terms of scale and scope, but it's shaping up to be about the strength of the ecosystems. That's really a hallmark of these big cloud players. I mean they're, it's a key factor for innovating, accelerating product delivery, filling gaps in, in the hyperscale offerings cuz you got more stack, you know, mature stack capabilities and you know, it creates this flywheel momentum as we often say. But, so my question is, how do you work with the hyperscalers? Like whether it's AWS or Google, whomever, and what do you see as your role and what's the Collibra sweet spot? >>Yeah, definitely. So, you know, one of the things I mentioned early on is the broader ecosystem of partners is what it's all about. And so we have that strong partnership with Snowflake. We also are doing more with Google around, you know, GCP and kbra protect there, but also tighter data plex integration. So similar to what you've seen with our strategic moves around Snowflake and, and really covering the broad ecosystem of what Collibra can do on top of that data source. We're extending that to the world of Google as well and the world of data plex. We also have great partners in SI's Infosys is somebody we spoke with at the conference who's done a lot of great work with Levi's as they're really important to help people with their whole data strategy and driving that data driven culture and, and Collibra being the core of it. >>Hi Laura, we're gonna, we're gonna end it there, but I wonder if you could kind of put a bow on, you know, this year, the event your, your perspectives. So just give us your closing thoughts. >>Yeah, definitely. So I, I wanna say this is one of the biggest releases Collibra's ever had. Definitely the biggest one since I've been with the company a little over a year. We have all these great new product innovations coming to really drive the ease of use to make data more valuable for users everywhere and, and companies everywhere. And so it's all about everybody being able to easily find, understand, and trust and get access to that data going forward. >>Well congratulations on all the pro progress. It was great to have you on the cube first time I believe, and really appreciate you, you taking the time with us. >>Yes, thank you for your time. >>You're very welcome. Okay, you're watching the coverage of Data Citizens 2022 on the cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. >>So data modernization oftentimes means moving some of your storage and computer to the cloud where you get the benefit of scale and security and so on. But ultimately it doesn't take away the silos that you have. We have more locations, more tools and more processes with which we try to get value from this data. To do that at scale in an organization, people involved in this process, they have to understand each other. So you need to unite those people across those tools, processes, and systems with a shared language. When I say customer, do you understand the same thing as you hearing customer? Are we counting them in the same way so that shared language unites us and that gives the opportunity for the organization as a whole to get the maximum value out of their data assets and then they can democratize data so everyone can properly use that shared language to find, understand, and trust the data asset that's available. >>And that's where Collibra comes in. We provide a centralized system of engagement that works across all of those locations and combines all of those different user types across the whole business. At Collibra, we say United by data and that also means that we're united by data with our customers. So here is some data about some of our customers. There was the case of an online do it yourself platform who grew their revenue almost three times from a marketing campaign that provided the right product in the right hands of the right people. In other case that comes to mind is from a financial services organization who saved over 800 K every year because they were able to reuse the same data in different kinds of reports and before there was spread out over different tools and processes and silos, and now the platform brought them together so they realized, oh, we're actually using the same data, let's find a way to make this more efficient. And the last example that comes to mind is that of a large home loan, home mortgage, mortgage loan provider where they have a very complex landscape, a very complex architecture legacy in the cloud, et cetera. And they're using our software, they're using our platform to unite all the people and those processes and tools to get a common view of data to manage their compliance at scale. >>Hey everyone, I'm Lisa Martin covering Data Citizens 22, brought to you by Collibra. This next conversation is gonna focus on the importance of data culture. One of our Cube alumni is back, Stan Christians is Collibra's co-founder and it's Chief Data citizens. Stan, it's great to have you back on the cube. >>Hey Lisa, nice to be. >>So we're gonna be talking about the importance of data culture, data intelligence, maturity, all those great things. When we think about the data revolution that every business is going through, you know, it's so much more than technology innovation. It also really re requires cultural transformation, community transformation. Those are challenging for customers to undertake. Talk to us about what you mean by data citizenship and the role that creating a data culture plays in that journey. >>Right. So as you know, our event is called Data Citizens because we believe that in the end, a data citizen is anyone who uses data to do their job. And we believe that today's organizations, you have a lot of people, most of the employees in an organization are somehow gonna to be a data citizen, right? So you need to make sure that these people are aware of it. You need that. People have skills and competencies to do with data what necessary and that's on, all right? So what does it mean to have a good data culture? It means that if you're building a beautiful dashboard to try and convince your boss, we need to make this decision that your boss is also open to and able to interpret, you know, the data presented in dashboard to actually make that decision and take that action. Right? >>And once you have that why to the organization, that's when you have a good data culture. Now that's continuous effort for most organizations because they're always moving, somehow they're hiring new people and it has to be continuous effort because we've seen that on the hand. Organizations continue challenged their data sources and where all the data is flowing, right? Which in itself creates a lot of risk. But also on the other set hand of the equation, you have the benefit. You know, you might look at regulatory drivers like, we have to do this, right? But it's, it's much better right now to consider the competitive drivers, for example, and we did an IDC study earlier this year, quite interesting. I can recommend anyone to it. And one of the conclusions they found as they surveyed over a thousand people across organizations worldwide is that the ones who are higher in maturity. >>So the, the organizations that really look at data as an asset, look at data as a product and actively try to be better at it, don't have three times as good a business outcome as the ones who are lower on the maturity scale, right? So you can say, ok, I'm doing this, you know, data culture for everyone, awakening them up as data citizens. I'm doing this for competitive reasons, I'm doing this re reasons you're trying to bring both of those together and the ones that get data intelligence right, are successful and competitive. That's, and that's what we're seeing out there in the market. >>Absolutely. We know that just generally stand right, the organizations that are, are really creating a, a data culture and enabling everybody within the organization to become data citizens are, We know that in theory they're more competitive, they're more successful. But the IDC study that you just mentioned demonstrates they're three times more successful and competitive than their peers. Talk about how Collibra advises customers to create that community, that culture of data when it might be challenging for an organization to adapt culturally. >>Of course, of course it's difficult for an organization to adapt but it's also necessary, as you just said, imagine that, you know, you're a modern day organization, laptops, what have you, you're not using those, right? Or you know, you're delivering them throughout organization, but not enabling your colleagues to actually do something with that asset. Same thing as through with data today, right? If you're not properly using the data asset and competitors are, they're gonna to get more advantage. So as to how you get this done, establish this. There's angles to look at, Lisa. So one angle is obviously the leadership whereby whoever is the boss of data in the organization, you typically have multiple bosses there, like achieve data officers. Sometimes there's, there's multiple, but they may have a different title, right? So I'm just gonna summarize it as a data leader for a second. >>So whoever that is, they need to make sure that there's a clear vision, a clear strategy for data. And that strategy needs to include the monetization aspect. How are you going to get value from data? Yes. Now that's one part because then you can leadership in the organization and also the business value. And that's important. Cause those people, their job in essence really is to make everyone in the organization think about data as an asset. And I think that's the second part of the equation of getting that right, is it's not enough to just have that leadership out there, but you also have to get the hearts and minds of the data champions across the organization. You, I really have to win them over. And if you have those two combined and obviously a good technology to, you know, connect those people and have them execute on their responsibilities such as a data intelligence platform like s then the in place to really start upgrading that culture inch by inch if you'll, >>Yes, I like that. The recipe for success. So you are the co-founder of Collibra. You've worn many different hats along this journey. Now you're building Collibra's own data office. I like how before we went live, we were talking about Calibra is drinking its own champagne. I always loved to hear stories about that. You're speaking at Data Citizens 2022. Talk to us about how you are building a data culture within Collibra and what maybe some of the specific projects are that Collibra's data office is working on. >>Yes, and it is indeed data citizens. There are a ton of speaks here, are very excited. You know, we have Barb from m MIT speaking about data monetization. We have Dilla at the last minute. So really exciting agen agenda. Can't wait to get back out there essentially. So over the years at, we've doing this since two and eight, so a good years and I think we have another decade of work ahead in the market, just to be very clear. Data is here to stick around as are we. And myself, you know, when you start a company, we were for people in a, if you, so everybody's wearing all sorts of hat at time. But over the years I've run, you know, presales that sales partnerships, product cetera. And as our company got a little bit biggish, we're now thousand two. Something like people in the company. >>I believe systems and processes become a lot important. So we said you CBRA isn't the size our customers we're getting there in of organization structure, process systems, et cetera. So we said it's really time for us to put our money where is and to our own data office, which is what we were seeing customers', organizations worldwide. And they organizations have HR units, they have a finance unit and over time they'll all have a department if you'll, that is responsible somehow for the data. So we said, ok, let's try to set an examples that other people can take away with it, right? Can take away from it. So we set up a data strategy, we started building data products, took care of the data infrastructure. That's sort of good stuff. And in doing all of that, ISA exactly as you said, we said, okay, we need to also use our product and our own practices and from that use, learn how we can make the product better, learn how we make, can make the practice better and share that learning with all the, and on, on the Monday mornings, we sometimes refer to eating our dog foods on Friday evenings. >>We referred to that drinking our own champagne. I like it. So we, we had a, we had the driver to do this. You know, there's a clear business reason. So we involved, we included that in the data strategy and that's a little bit of our origin. Now how, how do we organize this? We have three pillars, and by no means is this a template that everyone should, this is just the organization that works at our company, but it can serve as an inspiration. So we have a pillar, which is data science. The data product builders, if you'll or the people who help the business build data products. We have the data engineers who help keep the lights on for that data platform to make sure that the products, the data products can run, the data can flow and you know, the quality can be checked. >>And then we have a data intelligence or data governance builders where we have those data governance, data intelligence stakeholders who help the business as a sort of data partner to the business stakeholders. So that's how we've organized it. And then we started following the CBRA approach, which is, well, what are the challenges that our business stakeholders have in hr, finance, sales, marketing all over? And how can data help overcome those challenges? And from those use cases, we then just started to build a map and started execution use of the use case. And a important ones are very simple. We them with our, our customers as well, people talking about the cata, right? The catalog for the data scientists to know what's in their data lake, for example, and for the people in and privacy. So they have their process registry and they can see how the data flows. >>So that's a starting place and that turns into a marketplace so that if new analysts and data citizens join kbra, they immediately have a place to go to, to look at, see, ok, what data is out there for me as an analyst or a data scientist or whatever to do my job, right? So they can immediately get access data. And another one that we is around trusted business. We're seeing that since, you know, self-service BI allowed everyone to make beautiful dashboards, you know, pie, pie charts. I always, my pet pee is the pie chart because I love buy and you shouldn't always be using pie charts. But essentially there's become proliferation of those reports. And now executives don't really know, okay, should I trust this report or that report the reporting on the same thing. But the numbers seem different, right? So that's why we have trusted this reporting. So we know if a, the dashboard, a data product essentially is built, we not that all the right steps are being followed and that whoever is consuming that can be quite confident in the result either, Right. And that silver browser, right? Absolutely >>Decay. >>Exactly. Yes, >>Absolutely. Talk a little bit about some of the, the key performance indicators that you're using to measure the success of the data office. What are some of those KPIs? >>KPIs and measuring is a big topic in the, in the data chief data officer profession, I would say, and again, it always varies with to your organization, but there's a few that we use that might be of interest. Use those pillars, right? And we have metrics across those pillars. So for example, a pillar on the data engineering side is gonna be more related to that uptime, right? Are the, is the data platform up and running? Are the data products up and running? Is the quality in them good enough? Is it going up? Is it going down? What's the usage? But also, and especially if you're in the cloud and if consumption's a big thing, you have metrics around cost, for example, right? So that's one set of examples. Another one is around the data sciences and products. Are people using them? Are they getting value from it? >>Can we calculate that value in ay perspective, right? Yeah. So that we can to the rest of the business continue to say we're tracking all those numbers and those numbers indicate that value is generated and how much value estimated in that region. And then you have some data intelligence, data governance metrics, which is, for example, you have a number of domains in a data mesh. People talk about being the owner of a data domain, for example, like product or, or customer. So how many of those domains do you have covered? How many of them are already part of the program? How many of them have owners assigned? How well are these owners organized, executing on their responsibilities? How many tickets are open closed? How many data products are built according to process? And so and so forth. So these are an set of examples of, of KPIs. There's a, there's a lot more, but hopefully those can already inspire the audience. >>Absolutely. So we've, we've talked about the rise cheap data offices, it's only accelerating. You mentioned this is like a 10 year journey. So if you were to look into a crystal ball, what do you see in terms of the maturation of data offices over the next decade? >>So we, we've seen indeed the, the role sort of grow up, I think in, in thousand 10 there may have been like 10 achieve data officers or something. Gartner has exact numbers on them, but then they grew, you know, industries and the number is estimated to be about 20,000 right now. Wow. And they evolved in a sort of stack of competencies, defensive data strategy, because the first chief data officers were more regulatory driven, offensive data strategy support for the digital program. And now all about data products, right? So as a data leader, you now need all of those competences and need to include them in, in your strategy. >>How is that going to evolve for the next couple of years? I wish I had one of those balls, right? But essentially I think for the next couple of years there's gonna be a lot of people, you know, still moving along with those four levels of the stack. A lot of people I see are still in version one and version two of the chief data. So you'll see over the years that's gonna evolve more digital and more data products. So for next years, my, my prediction is it's all products because it's an immediate link between data and, and the essentially, right? Right. So that's gonna be important and quite likely a new, some new things will be added on, which nobody can predict yet. But we'll see those pop up in a few years. I think there's gonna be a continued challenge for the chief officer role to become a real executive role as opposed to, you know, somebody who claims that they're executive, but then they're not, right? >>So the real reporting level into the board, into the CEO for example, will continue to be a challenging point. But the ones who do get that done will be the ones that are successful and the ones who get that will the ones that do it on the basis of data monetization, right? Connecting value to the data and making that value clear to all the data citizens in the organization, right? And in that sense, they'll need to have both, you know, technical audiences and non-technical audiences aligned of course. And they'll need to focus on adoption. Again, it's not enough to just have your data office be involved in this. It's really important that you're waking up data citizens across the organization and you make everyone in the organization think about data as an asset. >>Absolutely. Because there's so much value that can be extracted. Organizations really strategically build that data office and democratize access across all those data citizens. Stan, this is an exciting arena. We're definitely gonna keep our eyes on this. Sounds like a lot of evolution and maturation coming from the data office perspective. From the data citizen perspective. And as the data show that you mentioned in that IDC study, you mentioned Gartner as well, organizations have so much more likelihood of being successful and being competitive. So we're gonna watch this space. Stan, thank you so much for joining me on the cube at Data Citizens 22. We appreciate it. >>Thanks for having me over >>From Data Citizens 22, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube, the leader in live tech coverage. >>Okay, this concludes our coverage of Data Citizens 2022, brought to you by Collibra. Remember, all these videos are available on demand@thecube.net. And don't forget to check out silicon angle.com for all the news and wiki bod.com for our weekly breaking analysis series where we cover many data topics and share survey research from our partner ETR Enterprise Technology Research. If you want more information on the products announced at Data Citizens, go to collibra.com. There are tons of resources there. You'll find analyst reports, product demos. It's really worthwhile to check those out. Thanks for watching our program and digging into Data Citizens 2022 on the Cube, your leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage. We'll see you soon.

>>from around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con, Europe 2021 >>virtual brought to you by red hat. The cloud Native >>computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage everyone of Coop Con 2021 Cloud Native Con 21 virtual europe. I'm john for your host of the cube. We've got two great guests here, James Labaki, senior Director of Product management, Red Hat and Richer Puree. IBM fellow and chief scientist at IBM Gentlemen, thanks for coming on the cube, appreciate it. >>Thank you for having us. >>So, um, got an IBM fellow and Chief scientist, Senior Director Product management. You guys have the keys to the kingdom on cloud Native. All right, it's gonna be fun. So let's just jump into it. So I want to ask you before we get into some of the questions around the projects, what you guys take of cube con this year, in terms of the vibe, I know it's virtual in europe north America, we looked like we might be in person but this year with the pandemic cloud native just seems to have a spring to its step, it's got more traction. I've seen the cloud native piece even more than kubernetes in a way. So scott cooper diseases continues to have traction, but it's always about kubernetes now. It's more cloud native. I what do you guys think about that? >>Yeah, I'm sure you have thoughts and I could add on >>Yes, I I think well I would really think of it as almost sequential in some ways. Community is too cold now there's a layer which comes above it which is where all our, you know, clients and enterprises realize the value, which is when the applications really move. It's about the applications and what they can deliver to their end customers. And the game now is really about moving those applications and making them cloud native. That's when the value of that software infrastructure will get realized and that's why you are seeing that vibe in the, in the clients and enterprises and at two corners. Well, >>yeah, I mean, I think it's exciting. I've been covering this community since the beginning as you guys know the cube. This is the enablement moment where the fruit is coming off the tree is starting to see that first wave of you mentioned that enablement, it's happening and you can see it in the project. So I want to get into the news here, the conveyor community. What is this about? Can you take a minute to explain what is the conveyor community? >>Yeah, yeah. I think uh, you know, uh, what, what we discovered is we were starting to work with a lot of end users and practitioners. Is that what we're finding is that they kind of get tired of hearing about digital transformation and from multiple vendors and and from sales folks and these sorts of things. And when you speak to the practitioners, they just want to know what are the practical implications of moving towards a more collaborative architecture. And so, um, you know, when you start talking to them at levels beyond, uh, just generic kind of, you know, I would say marketing speak and even the business cases, the developers and sys admins need to know what it is they need to do to their application architecture is the ways they're working for to successfully modernize their applications. And so the idea behind the conveyor community was really kind of two fold. One was to help with knowledge sharing. So we started running meetups where people can come and share their knowledge of what they've done around specific topics like strangling monoliths or carving offside containers or things that sidecar containers are things that they've done successfully uh to help uh kind of move things forward. So it's really about knowledge sharing. And then the second piece we discovered was that there's really no place where you can find open source tools to help you re host re platform and re factor your applications to kubernetes. And so that's really where we're trying to fill that void is provide open source options in that space and kind of inviting everybody else to collaborate with us on that. >>Can you give an example of something uh some use cases of people doing this, why the need the drivers? It makes sense. Right. As a growing, you've got, you have to move applications. People want to have um applications moved to communities. I get that. But what are some of the use cases that were forcing this? >>Yeah, absolutely, for sure. I don't know if you have any you want to touch on um specifically I could add on as well. >>Yeah, I think some of the key use cases, I would really say it will be. So let let me just, I think James just talked about re host, re hosting, re platform ng and re factoring, I'm gonna put some numbers on it and then they talk about the use case a little bit as well. I would really say 30 virtual machines movement. That's it. That's the first one to happen. Easy, easier one, relatively speaking. But that's the first one to happen. The re platform in one where you are now really sort of changing the stack as well but not changing the application in any major way yet. And the hardest one happened around re factoring, which is, you are, you know, this is when we start talking about cloud native, you take a monolithic application which you know legacy applications which have been running for a long time and try to re factor them so that you can build microservices out of them. The very first, I would say set of clients that we are seeing at the leading edge around this will be around banking and insurance. Legacy applications, banking is obviously finances a large industry and that's the first movement you start seeing which is where the complexity of the application in terms of some of the legacy code that you are seeing more onto the, into the cloud. That for a cloud native implementation as well as their as well as a diversity of scenarios from a re hosting and re platform ng point of view. And we'll talk about some of the tools that we are putting in the community uh to help the users and uh and the developer community in many of these enterprises uh move into a cloud native implementation lot of their applications. And also from the point of view of helping them in terms of practice, is what I describe as best practices. It is not just about tools, it's about the community coming together. How do I do this? How do I do that? Actually, there are best practices that we as a community have gathered. It's about that sharing as well, James. >>Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. Right. So you re hosting like for example, you might have uh an application that was delivered, you buy an SV that is not available containerized yet. You need to bring that over as a VM. So you can bring that into Q Bert, you know, and actually bring that and just re hosted. You can, you might have some things that you've already containerized but they're sitting on a container orchestration layer that is no longer growing, right? So the innovation has kind of left that platform and kind of kubernetes has become kind of that standard one, the container orchestration layer, if you want become the de facto standard. And so you want to re platform that that takes massaging and transforming metadata to do that to create the right objects and so on and so forth. So there's a bunch of different use cases around that that kind of fall into that re host tree platform all the way up to re factoring >>So just explain for the audience and I know I love I love the three things re hosting re platform in and re factoring what's the difference between re platform NG and re factoring specifically, what's the nuance there? >>Yeah, yeah, so so a lot of times I think people have a lot of people, you know, I think obviously amazon kind of popularized the six hours framework years ago, you know, with, with, with, with that. And so if you look at what they kind of what they popularize it was replied corn is really kind of like a lift tinker and shift. So maybe it's, I, I'm not just taking my VM and putting it on new infrastructure, I'm gonna take my VM, maybe put on new infrastructure, but I'm gonna switch my observer until like a lighter weight observer or something like that at the same time. So that would fall into like a re platform or in the case, you know, one of the things we're seeing pretty heavily right now is the move from cloud foundry to kubernetes for example, where people are looking to take their application and actually transform it and run it on kubernetes, which requires you to really kind of re platform as well. And re factoring >>is what specific I get the >>report re factoring is, I think just following on to what James said re factoring is really about um the complexity of the application, which was mainly a monolithic large application, many of these legacy applications which have so many times, actually hundreds of millions of dollars of assets for these uh these enterprises, it's about taking the code and re factoring it in terms of dividing it into uh huh different pieces of court which can themselves be spun as microservices. So then it becomes true, it takes starting advantage of agility or development in a cloud native environment as well. It's not just about either lift and shift of the VM or or lift tinker and shift from a, from a staff point of view. It's really about not taking applications and dividing them so that we can spin microservices and it has the identity of the development of a cloud. >>I totally got a great clarification, really want to get that out there because re platform ng is really a good thing to go to the cloud. Hey, I got reticent open source, I'll use that, I can do this over here and then if we use that vendor over there, use open source over there. Really good way to look at it. I like the factory, it's like a complete re architecture or re factoring if you will. So thank you for the clarification. Great, great topic. Uh, this is what practitioners think about. So I gotta ask the next question, what projects are involved in in the community that you guys are working? It seems like a really valuable service uh and group. Um can you give an overview and what's going on in the community specifically? >>Yeah, so there's really right now, there's kind of five projects that are in the community and they're all in different, I would say different stages of maturity as well. So, um there's uh when you look at re hosting, there's two kind of primary projects focused on that. One is called forklift, which is about migrating your virtual machines into cuba. So covert is a way that you can run virtual machines orchestrated by kubernetes. We're seeing kind of a growth in demand there where people want to have a common orchestration for both their VMS and containers running on bare metal. And so forklift helps you actually mass migrate VMS into that environment. Um The second one on the re hosting side is called Crane. So Crane is really a tool that helps you migrate applications between kubernetes clusters. So you imagine you have all your you know, you might have persistent data and one kubernetes cluster and you want to migrate a name space from one cluster to another. Um That's where Crane comes in and actually helps you migrate between those um on the re platforms that we have moved to cube, which actually came from the IBM research team. So they actually open source that uh you sure you want to speak about uh moved to >>cube. Yeah, so so moved to cuba is really as we discuss the re platform scenario already, it is about, you know, if you are in a docker environment or hungry environment uh and you know, kubernetes has become a de facto standard now you are containerized already, but you really are actually moving into the communities based environment as the name implies, It's about moved to cuba back to me and this is one of the things we were looking at and as we were looking, talking to a lot of, a lot of users, it became evident to us that they are adapting now the de facto standard. Uh and it's a tool that helps you enable your applications in that new environment and and move to the new stuff. >>Yeah. And then the the the only other to our tackle which is uh probably like the one of the newest projects which is focused on kind of assessment and analysis of applications for container reservation. So actually looking at and understanding what the suitability is of an application for being containerized and start to be like being re factored into containers. Um and that's that's uh, you know, we have kind of engineers across both uh Red hat IBM research as well as uh some folks externally that are starting to become interested in that project as well. Um and the last, the last project is called Polaris, which is a tool to help you measure your software delivery performance. So this might seem a little odd to have in the community. But when you think about re hosting re platform and re factoring, the idea is that you want to measure your software delivery performance on top of kubernetes and that's what this does. It kind of measures the door metrics. If you're familiar with devops realization metrics. Um so things like, you know, uh you know, your change failure rate and other things on top of their to see are you actually improving as you're making these changes? >>Great. Let me ask the question for the folks watching or anyone interested, how do they get involved? Who can contribute, explain how people get involved? Is our site, is there up location slack channel? What's out there? >>Yeah, yeah, all of the above. So we have a, we have, we have a slack channel, we're on slack dot kubernetes dot io on town conveyor, but if you go to www dot conveyor dot io conveyor with a K. Uh, not like the cube with a C. Uh, but like cube with a K. Uh, they can go to a conveyor to Ohio and um, there they can find everything they need. So, um, we have a, you know, a governance model that's getting put in place, contributor ladder, all the things you'd expect. We're kind of talking into the C N C F around the gap delivery groups to kind of understand if we can um, how we can align ourselves so that in the future of these projects take off, they can become kind of sandbox projects. Um and uh yeah, we would welcome any and all kind of contribution and collaboration >>for sure. I don't know if you have >>anything to add on that, I >>think you covered it at the point has already um, just to put a plug in for uh we have already been having meetups, so on the best practices you will find the community, um, not just on convert or die. Oh, but as you start joining the community and those of meet ups and the help you can get whether on the slack channel, very helpful on the day to day problems that you are encountering as you are taking your applications to a cloud native environment. >>So, and I can see this being a big interest enterprises as they have a mix and match environment and with container as you can bring and integrate old legacy. And that's the beautiful thing about hybrid cloud that I find fascinating right now is that with all the goodness of stade Coubertin and cloud native, if you've got a legacy environments, great fit now. So you don't have to kill the old to bring in the news. So this is gonna be everything a real popular project for, you know, the class, what I call the classic enterprise, So what you guys both have your companies participated in. So with that is that the goal is that the gulf of this community is to reach out to the classic enterprise or open source because certainly and users are coming in like, like, like you read about, I mean they're coming in fast into the community. >>What's the goal for the community really is to provide assistant and help and guidance to the users from a community point of view. It's not just from us whether it is red hat or are ideal research, but it's really enterprises start participating and we're already seeing that interest from the enterprises because there was a big gap in this area, a lot of vendor. Exactly when you start on this journey, there will be 100 people who will be telling you all you have to do is this Yeah, that's easy. All you have to do. I know there is a red flag goes up, >>it's easy just go cloud native all the way everything is a service. It's just so easy. Just you know, just now I was going to brian gracefully, you get right on that. I want to just quickly town tangent here, brian grazer whose product strategist at red hat, you're gonna like this because he's like, look at the cloud native pieces expanding because um, the enterprises now are, are in there and they're doing good work before you saw projects like envoy come from the hyper scales like lift and you know, the big companies who are building their own stuff, so you start to see that transition, it's no longer the debate on open source and kubernetes and cloud native. It's the discussion is integration legacy. So this is the big discussion this week. Do you guys agree with that? And what would, what would be your reaction? >>Yeah, no, I, I agree with you. Right. I mean, I think, you know, I think that the stat you always here is that the 1st 20 of kind of cloud happened and now there's all the rest of it. Right? And, and modernization is going to be the big piece right? You have to be able to modernize those applications and those workloads and you know, they're, I think they're gonna fall in three key buckets, right? Re host free platform re factor and dependent on your business justification and you know, your needs, you're going to choose one of those paths and we just want to be able to provide open tools and a community based approach to those folks too to help that certainly will have and just, you know, just like it always does, you know, upstream first and then we'll have enterprise versions of these migration tool kits based on these projects, but you know, we really do want to kind of build them, you know, and make sure we have the best solution to the problem, which we believe community is the way to do that. >>And I think just to add to what James said, typically we are talking about enterprises, these enterprises will have thousands of applications, so we're not talking about 10 40 number. We're talking thousands or 20% is not a small number is still 233 400. But man, the work is remaining and that's why they are getting excited about cloud negative now, okay, now we have seen the benefit but this little bit here, but now, let's get, you know serious about about that transformation and this is about helping them in a cloud native uh in an open source way, which is what red hat. XL Sad. Let's bring the community together. >>I'm actually doing a story on that. You brought that up with thousands of applications because I think it's, it's under underestimate, I think it's going to be 1000s and thousands more because businesses now, software driven everywhere and observe ability has pointed this out. And I was talking to the founder of uh Ravana project and it's like, how many thousands of dashboards you're gonna need? Roads are So so this is again, this is the problems and the opportunities are coming together, the abstraction will get you to move up the stack in terms of automation. So it's kind of fascinating when you start thinking about the impact as this goes the next level. And so I have to ask your roaches since you're an IBM fellow and chief scientist, which by the way, is a huge distinction. Congratulations. Being an IBM fellow is is a big deal. Uh IBM takes that very seriously. Only a few of them. You've seen many waves and cycles of innovation. How would you categorize this one now? Because maybe I'm getting old and and loving this right now. But this seems like everything kind of coming together in one flash 10.1 major inflection point. All the other waves combined seemed to be like in this one movement very fast. What's your what's your take on this wave that we're in? >>Yes, I would really say there is a lot of technology has been developed but that technology needs to have its value unleashed and that's exactly where the intersection of those applications and that technology occurs. Um I'm gonna put in yet another. You talked about everything becoming software. This was Anderson I think uh Jack Lee said the software is eating the world another you know, another wave that has started as a i eating software as well. And I do believe these two will go inside uh to uh like let me just give you a brief example re factoring how you take your application and smart ways of using ai to be able to recommend the right microservices for you is another one that we've been working towards and some of those capabilities will actually come in this community as well. So when we talk about innovations in this area, We are we are bringing together the best of IBM research as well. As we are hoping the community actually uh joints as well and enterprises are already starting to join to bring together the latest of the innovations bringing their applications and the best practices together to unleash that value of the technology in moving the rest of that 80%. And to be able to seamlessly bridge from my legacy environment to the cloud native environment. >>Yeah. And hybrid cloud is gonna be multi cloud really is the backbone and operating system of business and life society. So as these apps start to come on a P i is an integration, all of these things are coming together. So um yeah, this conveyor project and conveyor community looks like a really strong approach. Congratulations. Good >>job bob. >>Yeah, great stuff. Kubernetes, enabling companies is enabling all kinds of value here in the cube. We're bringing it to you with two experts. Uh, James Richard, thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Okay, cube con and cloud native coverage. I'm john furry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought >>to you by silicon angle. Okay, we're back. Here. Live Cuban Cloud. And this is Dave. Want with my co host, John Ferrier Were all remote. We're getting into the analyst power half hour. Really pleased to have Maribel Lopez here. She's the principal and founder of Lopez Research and Zias Caraballo, who is the principal and founder of ZK research. Guys, great to see you. Let's get into it. How you doing? >>Great. How you been? Good, >>thanks. Really good. John's hanging in there quarantining and, uh, all healthy, So I hope you guys are too. Hey, Mary, But let's start with you. You know, here we are on 2021 you know, just exited one of the strangest years, if not the strangest year of our lives. But looking back in the past decade of cloud and we're looking forward. How do you see that? Where do we come from? Where we at and where we going >>When we obviously started with the whole let's build a public cloud and everything was about public cloud. Uh, then we went thio the notion of private cloud than we had hybrid cloud and multi cloud. So we've done a lot of different clouds right now. And I think where we are today is that there's a healthy recognition on the cloud computing providers that you need to give it to the customers the way they want it, not the way you've decided to build it. So how do you meet them where they are so that they can have a cloud like experience wherever they want their data to be? >>Yes and yes, you've, you know, observed, This is well, in the early days of cloud, you heard a lot of rhetoric. It was private cloud And and then now we're, you know, hearing a lot of multi cloud and so forth. But initially, a lot of the traditional vendors kind of pooh poohed it. They called us analysts. We said we were all cloud crazy, but they seem to have got their religion. >>Well, everything. Everyone's got a definition of cloud, but I actually think we are right in the midst of another transformation of clouds Miracle talked about. We went from, you know, private clouds, which is really hosting the public cloud to multi cloud hybrid cloud. And if you look at the last post that put on Silicon Angle, which was talking about five acquisition of Volterra, I actually think we're in the midst of the transition to what's called distributed Club, where if you look at modernized cloud apps today, they're actually made up of services from different clouds on also distributed edge locations. And that's gonna have a pretty profound impact on the way we build out, because those distributed edges be a telco edge, cellular vagina. Th whatever the services that lived there are much more ephemeral in nature, right? So the way we secure the way we connect changes quite a bit. But I think that the great thing about Cloud is we've seen several several evolutionary changes. So what the definition is and we're going through that now, which is which is pretty cool to think about, right? It's not a static thing. Um, it's, uh, you know, it's a it's an ongoing transition. But I think, uh, you know, we're moving into this distributed Cloudera, which to me is a lot more complex than what we're dealing with in the Palace. >>I'm actually pretty excited about that because I think that this move toe edge and the distribution that you've talked about, it's like we now have processing everywhere. We've got it on devices, we've got it in, cars were moving, the data centers closer and closer to where the action's happening. And I think that's gonna be a huge trend for 2021. Is that distributed that you were talking about a lot of edge discussion? You >>know what? The >>reason we're doing This, too, is we want. It's not just we're moving the data closer to the user, right? And some. If you think you brought up the autonomous vehicle right in the car being an edge, you think of the data that generates right? There's some things such as the decision to stop or not right that should be done in car. I don't wanna transport that data all the way back to Google him back to decide whether I want to stop. You could also use the same data determine whether drivers driving safely for insurance purposes, right? So the same data give me located at the edge or in a centralized cloud for different purposes, and I think that's what you know, kind of cool about this is we're being able to use our data and much different ways. Now. >>You know, it's interesting is it's so complex. It's mind blowing because this is distributed computing. Everyone kind of agrees this is where it is. But if you think about the complexity and I want to get your guys reaction to this because you know some of the like side fringe trend discussions are data sovereignty, misinformation as a vulnerability. Okay, you get the chips now you got gravitas on with Amazon in front. Apple's got their own chips. Intel is gonna do a whole new direction. So you've got tons of computer. And then you mentioned the ephemeral nature. How do you manage those? What's the observe ability look like? They're what's the trust equation? So all these things kind of play into it. It sounds almost mind blowing, just even thinking about it. But how do you guys, this analyst tryto understand where someone's either blowing bullshit or kind of like has the real deal? Because all those things come into play? I mean, you could have a misinformation campaign targeting the car. Let's say Hey, you know that that data is needs to be. This is this is misinformation who's a >>in a lot of ways, this creates almost unprecedented opportunity now for for starts and for companies to transform right. The fundamental tenet of my research has always been share shifts happen when markets transition and we're in the middle of the big one. If the computer resource is we're using, John and the application resource will be using or ephemeral nature than all the things that surrounded the way we secured the way we connect. Those also have to be equal, equally agile, right, So you can't have, you know, you think of a micro services based application being secured with traditional firewalls, right? Just the amount of, or even virtual the way that the length of time it takes to spend those things up is way too long. So in many ways, this distributed cloud change changes everything in I T. And that that includes all of the services in the the infrastructure that we used to secure and connect. And that's a that is a profound change, and you mentioned the observe ability. You're right. That's another thing that the traditional observe ability tools are based on static maps and things and, you know, traditional up, down and we don't. Things go up and down so quickly now that that that those don't make any sense. So I think we are going to see quite a rise in different types of management tools and the way they look at things to be much more. I suppose you know Angela also So we can measure things that currently aren't measurable. >>So you're talking about the entire stack. Really? Changing is really what you're inferring anyway from your commentary. And that would include the programming model as well, wouldn't it? >>Absolutely. Yeah. You know, the thing that is really interesting about where we have been versus where we're going is we spent a lot of time talking about virtual izing hardware and moving that around. And what does that look like? And that, and creating that is more of a software paradigm. And the thing we're talking about now is what is cloud is an operating model look like? What is the manageability of that? What is the security of that? What? You know, we've talked a lot about containers and moving into a different you know, Dev suck ups and all those different trends that we've been talking about, like now we're doing them. So we've only got into the first crank of that. And I think every technology vendor we talked to now has to address how are they going to do a highly distributed management and security landscape? Like, what are they gonna layer on top of that? Because it's not just about Oh, I've taken Iraq of something server storage, compute and virtualized it. I now have to create a new operating model around it. In a way, we're almost redoing what the OS I stack looks like and what the software and solutions are for that. >>So >>it was really Hold on, hold on, hold on their lengthened. Because that side stack that came up earlier today, Mayor. But we're talking about Yeah, we were riffing on the OSC model, but back in the day and we were comparing the S n a definite the, you know, the proprietary protocol stacks that they were out there and someone >>said Amazon's S N a. Is that recall? E think that's what you said? >>No, no. Someone in the chest. That's a comment like Amazon's proprietary meaning, their scale. And I said, Oh, that means there s n a But if you think about it, that's kind of almost that can hang. Hang together. If the kubernetes is like a new connective tissue, is that the TCP pipe moment? Because I think Os I kind of was standardizing at the lower end of the stack Ethernet token ring. You know, the data link layer physical layer and that when you got to the TCP layer and really magic happened right to me, that's when Cisco's happened and everything started happening then and then. It kind of stopped because the application is kinda maintain their peace there. A little history there, but like that's kind of happening now. If you think about it and then you put me a factor in the edge, it just kind of really explodes it. So who's gonna write that software? E >>think you know, Dave, your your dad doesn't change what you build ups. It's already changed in the consumer world, you look atyou, no uber and Waze and things like that. Those absolute already highly decomposed applications that make a P I calls and DNS calls from dozens of different resource is already right. We just haven't really brought that into the enterprise space. There's a number, you know, what kind of you know knew were born in the cloud companies that have that have done that. But they're they're very few and far between today. And John, your point about the connectivity. We do need to think about connectivity at the network layer. Still, obviously, But now we're creating that standardization that standardized connectivity all the way a player seven. So you look at a lot of the, you know, one of the big things that was a PDP. I calls right, you know, from different cloud services. And so we do need to standardize in every layer and then stitch that together. So that does make It does make things a lot more complicated. Now I'm not saying Don't do it because you can do a whole lot more with absolute than you could ever do before. It's just that we kind of cranked up the level of complexity here, and flowered isn't just a single thing anymore, right? That's that. That's what we're talking about here It's a collection of edges and private clouds and public clouds. They all have to be stitched together at every layer in orderto work. >>So I was I was talking a few CEOs earlier in the day. We had we had them on, I was asking them. Okay, So how do you How do you approach this complexity? Do you build that abstraction layer? Do you rely on someone like Microsoft to build that abstraction layer? Doesn't appear that Amazon's gonna do it, you know? Where does that come from? Or is it or is it dozens of abstraction layers? And one of the CEO said, Look, it's on us. We have to figure out, you know, we get this a p I economy, but But you guys were talking about a mawr complicated environment, uh, moving so so fast. Eso if if my enterprise looks like my my iPhone APs. Yes, maybe it's simpler on an individual at basis, but its app creep and my application portfolio grows. Maybe they talk to each other a little bit better. But that level of complexity is something that that that users are gonna have to deal >>with what you thought. So I think quite what Zs was trying to get it and correct me if I'm wrong. Zia's right. We've got to the part where we've broken down what was a traditional application, right? And now we've gotten into a P. I calls, and we have to think about different things. Like we have to think about how we secure those a p I s right. That becomes a new criteria that we're looking at. How do we manage them? How do they have a life cycle? So what was the life cycle of, say, an application is now the life cycle of components and so that's a That's a pretty complex thing. So it's not so much that you're getting app creep, but you're definitely rethinking how you want to design your applications and services and some of those you're gonna do yourself and a lot of them are going to say it's too complicated. I'm just going to go to some kind of SAS cloud offering for that and let it go. But I think that many of the larger companies I speak to are looking for a larger company to help them build some kind of framework to migrate from what they've used with them to what they need tohave going forward. >>Yeah, I think. Where the complexities. John, You asked who who creates the normalization layer? You know, obviously, if you look to the cloud providers A W s does a great job of stitching together all things AWS and Microsoft does a great job of stitching together all things Microsoft right in saying with Google. >>But >>then they don't. But if if I want to do some Microsoft to Amazon or Google Toe Microsoft, you know, connectivity, they don't help so much of that. And that's where the third party vendors that you know aviatrix on the network side will tear of the security side of companies like that. Even Cisco's been doing a lot of work with those companies, and so what we what we don't really have And we probably won't for a while if somebody is gonna stitch everything together at every >>you >>know, at every layer. So Andi and I do think we do get after it. Maribel, I think if you look at the world of consumer APS, we moved to a lot more kind of purpose built almost throwaway apps. They serve a purpose or to use them for a while. Then you stop using them. And in the enterprise space, we really haven't kind of converted to them modeling on the mobile side. But I think that's coming. Well, >>I think with micro APS, right, that that was kind of the issue with micro APS. It's like, Oh, I'm not gonna build a full scale out that's gonna take too long. I'm just gonna create this little workflow, and we're gonna have, like, 200 work flows on someone's phone. And I think we did that. And not everybody did it, though, to your point. So I do think that some people that are a little late to the game might end up in in that app creep. But, hey, listen, this is a fabulous opportunity that just, you know, throw a lot of stuff out and do it differently. What What? I think what I hear people struggling with ah lot is be to get it to work. It typically is something that is more vertically integrated. So are you buying all into a Microsoft all you're buying all into an Amazon and people are starting to get a little fear about doing the full scale buy into any specific platform yet. In absence of that, they can't get anything to work. >>Yeah, So I think again what? What I'm hearing from from practitioners, I'm gonna put a micro serve. And I think I think, uh, Mirabelle, this is what you're implying. I'm gonna put a micro services layer. Oh, my, my. If I can't get rid of them, If I can't get rid of my oracle, you know, workloads. I'm gonna connect them to my modernize them with a layer, and I'm gonna impart build that. I'm gonna, you know, partner to get that done. But that seems to be a a critical path forward. If I don't take that step, gonna be stuck in the path in the past and not be able to move forward. >>Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you do have to bridge to the past. You you aren't gonna throw everything out right away. That's just you can't. You can't drive the bus and take the wheels off that the same time. Maybe one wheel, but not all four of them at the same time. So I think that this this concept of what are the technologies and services that you use to make sure you can keep operational, but that you're not just putting on Lee new workloads into the cloud or new workloads as decomposed APS that you're really starting to think about. What do I want to keep in whatever I want to get rid of many of the companies you speak Thio. They have thousands of applications. So are they going to do this for thousands of applications? Are they gonna take this as an opportunity to streamline? Yeah, >>well, a lot of legacy never goes away, right? And I was how companies make this transition is gonna be interesting because there's no there's no really the fact away I was I was talking to this one company. This is New York Bank, and they've broken their I t division down into modern I t and legacy I t. And so modern. Everything is cloud first. And so imagine me, the CEO of Legacy i e 02 miracles. But what they're doing, if they're driving the old bus >>and >>then they're building a new bus and parallel and eventually, you know, slowly they take seats out of the old bus and they take, you know, the seat and and they eventually start stripping away things. That old bus, >>But >>that old bus is going to keep running for a long time. And so stitching the those different worlds together is where a lot of especially big organizations that really can't commit to everything in the cloud are gonna struggle. But it is a It is a whole new world. And like I said, I think it creates so much opportunity for people. You know, e >>whole bus thing reminds me that movie speed when they drive around 55 miles an hour, just put it out to the airport and just blew up E >>got But you know, we all we all say that things were going to go away. But to Zia's point, you know, nothing goes away. We're still in 2021 talking about mainframes just as an aside, right? So I think we're going to continue tohave some legacy in the network. But the But the issue is ah, lot will change around that, and they're gonna be some people. They're gonna make a lot of money selling little startups that Just do one specific piece of that. You know, we just automation of X. Oh, >>yeah, that's a great vertical thing. This is the This is the distributed network argument, right? If you have a note in the network and you could put a containerized environment around it with some micro services um, connective tissue glue layer, if you will software abstract away some integration points, it's a note on the network. So if in mainframe or whatever, it's just I mean makes the argument right, it's not core. You're not building a platform around the mainframe, but if it's punching out, I bank jobs from IBM kicks or something, you know, whatever, Right? So >>And if those were those workloads probably aren't gonna move anywhere, right, they're not. Is there a point in putting those in the cloud? You could say Just leave them where they are. Put a connection to the past Bridge. >>Remember that bank when you talk about bank guy we interviewed in the off the record after the Cube interviews like, Yeah, I'm still running the mainframe, so I never get rid of. I love it. Run our kicks job. I would never think about moving that thing. >>There was a large, large non US bank who said I buy. I buy the next IBM mainframe sight unseen. Andi, he's got no choice. They just write the check. >>But milliseconds is like millions of dollars of millisecond for him on his back, >>so those aren't going anywhere. But then, but then, but they're not growing right. It's just static. >>No, no, that markets not growing its's, in fact. But you could make a lot of money and monetizing the legacy, right? So there are vendors that will do that. But I do think if you look at the well, we've already seen a pretty big transition here. If you look at the growth in a company like twilio, right, that it obviates the need for a company to rack and stack your own phone system to be able to do, um, you know, calling from mobile lapse or even messaging. Now you just do a P. I calls. Um, you know, it allows in a lot of ways that this new world we live in democratizes development, and so any you know, two people in the garage can start up a company and have a service up and running another time at all, and that creates competitiveness. You know much more competitiveness than we've ever had before, which is good for the entire industry. And, you know, because that keeps the bigger companies on their toes and they're always looking over their shoulder. You know what, the banks you're looking at? The venues and companies like that Brian figure out a way to monetize. So I think what we're, you know well, that old stuff never going away. The new stuff is where the competitive screen competitiveness screen. >>It's interesting. Um IDs Avery. Earlier today, I was talking about no code in loco development, how it's different from the old four g l days where we didn't actually expand the base of developers. Now we are to your point is really is democratizing and, >>well, everybody's a developer. It could be a developer, right? A lot of these tools were written in a way that line of business people create their own APs to point and click interface is, and so the barrier. It reminds me of when, when I started my career, I was a I. I used to code and HTML build websites and then went to five years. People using drag and drop interface is right, so that that kind of job went away because it became so easy to dio. >>Yeah, >>sorry. A >>data e was going to say, I think we're getting to the part. We're just starting to talk about data, right? So, you know, when you think of twilio, that's like a service. It's connecting you to specific data. When you think of Snowflake, you know, there's been all these kinds of companies that have crept up into the landscape to feel like a very specific void. And so now the Now the question is, if it's really all about the data, they're going to be new companies that get built that are just focusing on different aspects of how that data secured, how that data is transferred, how that data. You know what happens to that data, because and and does that shift the balance of power about it being out of like, Oh, I've created these data centers with large recommend stack ums that are virtualized thio. A whole other set of you know this is a big software play. It's all about software. >>Well, we just heard from Jim Octagon e You guys talking earlier about just distributed system. She basically laid down that look. Our data architectures air flawed there monolithic. And data by its very nature is distributed so that she's putting forth the whole new paradigm around distributed decentralized data models, >>which Howie shoe is just talking about. Who's gonna build the visual studio for data, right? So programmatic. Kind of thinking around data >>I didn't >>gathering. We didn't touch on because >>I do think there's >>an opportunity for that for, you know, data governance and data ownership and data transport. But it's also the analytics of it. Most companies don't have the in house, um, you know, data scientists to build on a I algorithms. Right. So you're gonna start seeing, you know, cos pop up to do very specific types of data. I don't know if you saw this morning, um, you know, uniforms bought this company that does, you know, video emotion detection so they could tell on the video whether somebody's paying attention, Not right. And so that's something that it would be eso hard for a company to build that in house. But I think what you're going to see is a rise in these, you know, these types of companies that help with specific types of analytics. And then you drop you pull those in his resource is into your application. And so it's not only the storage and the governance of the data, but also the analytics and the analytics. Frankly, there were a lot of the, uh, differentiation for companies is gonna come from. I know Maribel has written a lot on a I, as have I, and I think that's one of the more exciting areas to look at this year. >>I actually want to rip off your point because I think it's really important because where we left off in 2020 was yes, there was hybrid cloud, but we just started to see the era of the vertical eyes cloud the cloud for something you know, the cloud for finance, the cloud for health care, the telco and edge cloud, right? So when you start doing that, it becomes much more about what is the specialized stream that we're looking at. So what's a specialized analytic stream? What's a specialized security stack stream? Right? So until now, like everything was just trying to get to what I would call horizontal parody where you took the things you had before you replicated them in a new world with, like, some different software, but it was still kind of the same. And now we're saying, OK, let's try Thio. Let's try to move out of everything, just being a generic sort of cloud set of services and being more total cloud services. >>That is the evolution of everything technology, the first movement. Everything doing technology is we try and make the old thing the new thing look like the old thing, right? First PCs was a mainframe emulator. We took our virtual servers and we made them look like physical service, then eventually figure out, Oh, there's a whole bunch of other stuff that I could do then I couldn't do before. And that's the part we're trying to hop into now. Right? Is like, Oh, now that I've gone cloud native, what can I do that I couldn't do before? Right? So we're just we're sort of hitting that inflection point. That's when you're really going to see the growth takeoff. But for whatever reason, and i t. All we ever do is we're trying to replicate the old until we figure out the old didn't really work, and we should do something new. >>Well, let me throw something old and controversial. Controversial old but old old trope out there. Consumerism ation of I t. I mean, if you think about what year was first year you heard that term, was it 15 years ago? 20 years ago. When did that first >>podcast? Yeah, so that was a long time ago >>way. So if you think about it like, it kind of is happening. And what does it mean, right? Come. What does What does that actually mean in today's world Doesn't exist. >>Well, you heard you heard. Like Fred Luddy, whose founder of service now saying that was his dream to bring consumer like experiences to the enterprise will. Well, it didn't really happen. I mean, service not pretty. Pretty complicated compared toa what? We know what we do here, but so it's It's evolving. >>Yeah, I think there's also the enterprise ation of consumer technology that John the companies, you know, you look a zoom. They came to market with a highly consumer facing product, realized it didn't have the security tools, you know, to really be corporate great. And then they had to go invest a bunch of money in that. So, you know, I think that waken swing the pendulum all the way over to the consumer side, but that that kind of failed us, right? So now we're trying to bring it back to center a little bit where we blend the two together. >>Cloud kind of brings that I never looked at that way. That's interesting and surprising of consumer. Yeah, that's >>alright, guys. Hey, we gotta wrap Zs, Maribel. Always a pleasure having you guys on great great insights from the half hour flies by. Thanks so much. We appreciate it. >>Thank >>you guys. >>Alright, keep it right there. Mortgage rate content coming from the Cuban Cloud Day Volonte with John Ferrier and a whole lineup still to come Keep right there.

>> Presenter: From around the globe, it's theCUBE, with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2020 Virtual. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're coming to you from our Palo Alto Studios with our ongoing coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2020, the digital version. It would have been the North American version but obviously everything is digital. So we're excited, we've been coming back here for years and we've got a founder of CNCF and also a practitioner, really great opportunity to get some insight from someone who's out in the field and putting this stuff into work. So we're joined in this next segment by Ken Owens. He is the Vice President of Software Development Engineering for MasterCard, and he's a founding member of the CNCF, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation. Ken, great to see you. >> Yeah, great. Thank you for having me, I have, I've enjoyed theCUBE over the years and I'm glad to be a part of it again. >> Yeah, so we're, we're psyched to have you on, and I think it's the first time I've got to talk to you. I think you might've been on in LA a couple of years ago, or I was kind of drifting around that show. I don't think I was a it was on the set that day, but before we jump into kind of what's going on now, you were a founding member of CNCF. So let's take a step back and kind of share your perspective as to kind of where we are now from where this all began and kind of this whole movement around Cloud Native. Certainly it's a good place to be. >> Yeah, yeah definitely. It's been a great ride. In our industry, we go through these sort of timeframes every decade or so, where something big kind of comes along and you get involved in and you participate in it. And it gets to be a lot of fun and it either dies or it evolves into something else, right? And with CloudNativeCon Cloud Native itself, this concept of just how difficult it was to really move with the type of agility and the type of speed that developers in the enterprise really need to move at. It was just, it was hard to get there with just traditional infrastructure, traditional ways of doing configurations of doing management of infrastructure and it really needed something different and something to kind of help, it was called orchestration of course but at the time we didn't know it was called orchestration right. We knew we needed things like service mesh, but they weren't called service meshes then. There were more like control planes. And how do you, how do you custom create all of these different pieces? And the great thing about the CNCF is that we, when we started it, we had very simple foundational principles we wanted to follow right. One was, we wanted to have end users involved. A lot of foundations as become very vendor-driven and very vendor-centric. And you kind of lose your, your core base of the practitioners as you call us right? The guys who actually need to solve problems they're trying to make a living solving problems for the industry, not just for selling products, right? And so it was important that we get those end users involved and that, and that's probably the biggest changes. It's a great technology body. We had great technologists, great engineers and the foundation but we also have a huge over 150 end users that have engaged and been very involved and contributing to the end users things of the community, contributing to the foundation now. And it's been awesome to see that come to fruition over the last three years. >> Yeah, it certainly part of the magic of open source, that's been so, so transformative. And we've seen that obviously with servers and Linux and what what that did, but we've been talking a lot lately too about kind of the anniversary of the of the Agile Manifesto and kind of the Agile Movement and really changing the prioritization around change and really making change a first class citizen as opposed to kind of a nightmare I don't want to deal with and really building systems and ways of doing things that adopt that. I want to just to pull up the Cloud Native definition 'cause I think it's interesting. We talk about Cloud Native a lot and you guys actually wrote some words down and I think it's worth reading them that Cloud Native Technologies empower organizations to build and run scalable applications in dynamic environments. Dynamic environments is such a key piece to this puzzle because it used to be, this is your infrastructure person, you've got to build something that fits into this. Now with an app-centric world has completely flipped over and the application developer doesn't have to worry about the environment anymore, right? It's spin it up and make it available to me when I need it. A really different way of thinking about things than kind of this static world. >> Definitely and then that was the big missing piece for all those years was how do you get to this dynamic environment, right, that embraces change and embraces risk to some extent. Not risk like you heard in the past with risk avoidance is so important to have, right. It's really more, how do you embrace risk and fail earlier in the process, learn earlier in the process so that when you get to production you're not failing, you're not having to worry about failure because you cut as much as you could in the earlier phases of your development life cycle. And that's been set, like you said that dynamic piece has just been such the difference. I think in why it's been taken off. >> Yeah. >> And industry this last five years now that we've been around. >> Yeah, for sure. So then the next one well, I'm just going to go through them 'cause there's three main tenants of this thing. These techniques and techniques enabled loosely coupled systems that allow engineers to make high impact changes frequently and predictably with minimum toil. I mean, those are, those are really hard challenges in a classic waterfall way with PRDs and MRDs and everything locked down in a big, giant Gantt chart that fills half of the half the office to actually be able to have loosely coupled systems. Again a really interesting concept versus hardwired, connected systems. Now you're talking about APIs and systems all connecting. Really different way to think about development and how do you build applications. >> Yeah and the interesting thing there is the very first definition we came up with five plus years ago was containers, containerized workloads, right? And being technologist, everyone focused on those words containers and containerized and then everything had to be a container, right? And to your point, that isn't what we're trying to do, right? We're trying to create services that are just big enough to support whatever is needed for that service to support and be able to scale those up and down independently of other dependent systems that may have different requirements associated with what they have to do, right. And it was more about that keeping those highly efficient type of patterns in mind of spinning up and spinning down things that don't have impact or cause impact to other larger components around them was really the key not containers or containerized. >> Right. >> Obviously that's one of the patterns you could follow to create those types of services and those patterns, but there is nothing that guarantees it has to be a container that can do that. Lots of BMS today and lots of Bare Metal Servers can have a similar function. They're just not going to be as dynamic as you may want them to be in other environments. >> Right and then the third tenant, three of three is fostering sustainable ecosystem of open source vendor neutral projects, democratizing state-of-the-art patterns to make these innovations accessible for everyone. So just the whole idea of democratization of technology, democratization of data, democratization of tools, to do something with the data to find the insight democratization of the authority to execute on those decisions once you get going on that, I mean the open source and kind of this democratization to enable a broad distribution of power to more than just mahogany row, huge fundamental shift in the way people think about things. And really even still today, as everyone's trying to move their organizations to be more data-centric in the way they operate, it is really all about the democratization and getting that information and the tools and the ability to do something with it to as broad a group of people as you can. And that's even before we talk about open source development and the power of again, as you said, bringing in this really active community who want to contribute. It's a really interesting way that open source works. It's such a fun thing to watch, and I'm not a developer from the outside, but to see people get excited about helping other people. I think that's probably the secret to the whole thing that really taps into. >> Yeah, it is. And open source, there were discussions about open source for 20 plus years trying to get more into open source contributing to open source in an enterprise mindset, right? And it could never really take off 'cause it's not really the foundation or the platforms or the capabilities needed to do that. And now to your point, open source was really the underlying engine that is making all of this possible. Without open source and some of those early days of trying to get more open source and understanding of open source in the enterprise, I think we'd still be trying to get adoption but open source had just gotten to that point where everyone wanted to do more with open source. The CNCF comes along and said, here's the set of democratized, we're not going to have kingmakers in this organization. We're going to have a lot of open solutions, a lot of good options for companies to look at, and we're not going to lock you in to anything. 'Cause that's another piece of that open source model, right. Open source still can lock you in, right. But if you have open choices within open source, there's less, lock-in potential and locking isn't really a horrible thing. It's just one of those tenants you don't want to be tied too tightly to any one solution or one hope, open source even program because that could 'cause issues of that minimal toil we talked about, right. If you have a lot of dependencies and a lot of, I always joked about OpenStack but if I have to email two guys, if I find an issue in OpenStack about security that's not really a great security model that I can tell my customers I have your security covered, right? So, you want to get away from emails and having to ask for help, if you see a big security issue you want to just address it right then and fix it fast. >> Right, right. So much to unpack there. And for those that don't follow you, you've done a ton of presentations. You've got a ton of great content out of the internet with deep technical dives, into some of this stuff and the operational challenges in your philosophies but good keeping it kind of high level here. 'Cause one of the themes that comes up over and over in some of the other stuff I saw from you is really about asking the right questions. And we hear this time and time again, that the way to get the right answer first you got to frame the question right. And you talk quite extensively about asking the why and asking the how. I wonder if you can unpack that a little bit as to why those two questions are so important and how do you ask them in a way that doesn't piss everybody off or scare them away when you're at a big company like MasterCard that has a lot of personal information, you're in the finance industry, you got ton of regulation but still you're asking how and you're asking why. >> Yeah, definitely. And those, those are two questions that I keep coming back to in the industry because they are, they're not asked enough in my opinion. I think they, for the reasons you brought up those there's too much pushback or there's, you don't want to be viewed as someone who's being difficult, right? And there maybe other reasons why you don't want to ask that but I like to ask the why first because it, you kind of have to understand what's the problem you're trying to solve. And it kind of goes back to my engineering background, I think right. I love to solve problems and one of my early days and you might have heard this on one of my, my interviews, right. But in my early days, I was trying to fix a problem that I was on an advanced engineering team. And I was tier four support in a large Telco. And for months we had this issue with one of our large oil based companies and no one could solve it. And I was on call the night that they called in. And I asked the guy a simple question, tell me which lights you see on this DHUC issue? Which is a piece of equipment that sits between a ATM network and a regular Sonnet network. So we're watching, I'm asking them as kind of find out where in this path, there's a problem. And the guy tells me where there's no lights on. And I'm like well, plug in the power and let me know when it boots up and then let's try another test. And that was the problem. So my, the cleaning crew would come through and unplugged it. And so I learned early on in my crew that if you don't ask those simple questions, you just assume that everything's working almost nine times out of 10, it's the simple, easy solution to a problem. You're just too busy thinking of all the complex things that could go wrong and trying to solve all the hard problems first. And so I really try to help people think about, ask the why questions, ask, why is this important? Why do we need to do this now? Why, what would happen if we don't do this? If we did it this other way, what's the downside of doing it this other way? Really think through your options, 'cause it may take you 20, 30 minutes to kind of do a good analysis of a problem, but then your solution you're not going to spend weeks trying to troubleshoot when it doesn't work because you put the time upfront to think about it. So that's sort of the main reason why I like to ask the why and the how, because it forces you to think outside of your normal, my job is to take this cog and put it over here and fix this, right. And you don't want to be in that, that mode when you're solving complex problems because you overlook or you miss the simple things. >> Right. So you don't like the 'cause we've always done it that way? (both laughing) >> I do not. And I hear that a lot everywhere I've been in the industry and anywhere, any company you have those, this is the way we've always done it. >> Yeah, yeah. Just like the way we've always traveled, right. And the way we've always been educated and the way we've always consumed entertainment. It's like really? I wanted to (indistinct) >> I have learned though that there's a good, I like to understand the reason behind why we've always done it that way. So I do always ask that question. >> Right. >> I don't turn around on someone and get mad at them and you say, Oh, we can't we have to do it differently. I don't have the mindset of let's throw that out the window because I realized that over time something happened. It's like when I had younger kids, I always laugh because they put these warnings on those whatever they call them at the kids stand up in them. >> Right, the little, the little (indistinct) >> Don't put them on top of the stairs right. These stupid little statements are written on there. And I always thought I was dumb. And if somebody told me, well that's because somebody put their kid near the pool and they drown. >> Right, right. >> You have to kind of point out the obvious to people and so, >> Yeah. >> I don't think it's that dangerous of a situation and in the work environment, but hopefully we're not making the same mistakes that have been prevented by not allowing just the, not because we've done it this way before modeled it to go forward. >> Right, right now we have a rule around here too. There's a reason we have every rules is because somebody blew it at some point in time. That's why we have the rule that I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about automation, right? 'Cause automation is such a big and important piece of this whole story especially as these systems scale, scale, scale. And we know that people are prone to errors. I mean, I had seen that story about the cleaner accidentally unplugging things. We all know that people fat fingers, copy and paste is not used as universally as it should be. But I wonder if you could share, how important automation is. And I know you've talked a lot about how people should think about automate automation and prioritizing automation and helping use automation to both make people more productive but also to prioritize what the people should be working on as well as lowering the error rate on stuff that they probably shouldn't be doing anyway. >> Exactly, yeah automation to me is, as you've heard me say before is it's something that is probably almost as big of a key tenet as open source should be, right? It's one of those foundational things that it really helps you to get rid of some of that churn and some of the toil that you run into in a production environment where you're trying to always figure out what went wrong and why did this system not work on this point in time and this day and this deployment, and it's almost to your point always a fat finger, someone deleted an IP address from the IPAM system. There's all kinds of errors that you can people can tell you about that have happened. But to the root of your question is automation needs to be thought about from three different primary areas in my view, in my experience. The first one is the infrastructure as code, software defined infrastructure, right. So the networking teams and the storage teams and the security teams are probably the furthest behind in adopting automation in in their jobs, right. And their jobs are probably the most critical pieces of the infrastructure, right? And so those are, those are pieces that I really highly encouraged them to think about how can they automate those areas. The second piece is I think is equally as important as the infrastructure piece is the application side. When I first joined multiple enterprises in the past, the test coverage is in the low 10's to 20%, right. And your test coverage is a direct correlation to how well your application is going to behave and production in terms of failures, right? So if you have low test coverage, you're going to have high failure rates. It's sort of over over all types of industries every study has shown that, right. So getting your test coverage up and testing the right things not just testing to have test coverage right. >> But actually. >> Right, right. >> Thinking through your user stories and acceptance criteria and having good test is really, really important. So you have those two bookends, right. And in between, I think it's important that you look at how you connect to these services, these distributed systems we talked about in the opening right. If you fully automate your infrastructure and fully automate your application development and delivery, that's great. But if in the middle you have this gooey middle that doesn't really connect well doesn't really have the automation in place to ensure that your certificates are there that your security is in place. That middle piece can become really a problem from a security and from a availability issue. And so those those are the two pieces that I say really focus on is that gooey middle and then that infrastructure piece is really the two keys. >> Right, right. You've got another group of words that you use a lot. I want you to give us a little bit more color behind it. And that's talking to people to tell them that they need to spend more time on investigation. They need to do more experimentation. And then and the one that really popped out to me was it was retro to retrospective to not necessarily a postmortem which I thought is interesting. You say retrospective versus the postmortem, because this is an ongoing process for continuous improvement. And then finally, what seems drop dead dumb obvious is to iterate and deliver. But I wonder if you can share a little bit more color on how important it is to experiment and to investigate and to have those retrospectives. >> Yeah definitely. And then it kind of goes back to that culture we want to create in a Cloud Native world, right. We want to be open to thinking about how we can solve problems better, how we can have each iteration we want, to look at, how do we have a less toil, have less issues. How do we improve the, I liked kind of delight in your experience, how do you make your developers and your customers specific, but specifically how do you make your customers so happy with your service? And when you think about those sort of areas, right. You want to spend some portion of your time dedicated to how do I look at and investigate better ways of doing things or more improvements around the way my customer experience is being delivered. Asking your customers questions, right. You'd be surprised how how many customers don't ever get asked for their opinion on how something works, right. And they want to be asked, they'd love to give you feedback. It doesn't necessarily mean you're going to go do it that next iteration, right? The old adage I like to use is if Henry Ford had listened to his customers he would have tried to breed a faster horse, right? And so you have to kind of think about what you want to try to deliver as a product and as an organization but at the same time, that input is important. And I think, I say carve it out, because if you don't, we're so busy today and there's so much going on in our lives. If you don't dedicate and carve out some of that time and protect that time, you will never get to that, right. It's always a, I'll get to that next year. Maybe our next iteration I'll try, right. And so it's important to really hold that time as sacred and spend time every week, every couple of weeks, whatever it works out in the schedule, but actually put that in your calendar and block out that time and use it to really look at what's possible, what's relevant, what kind of improvements you can have. I think those are really the key the key takeaways I can have from that piece of it. And then, the last one you asked about, which I think is so important, is the retrospective, right. Always trying to get better and better at what you do is, is an engineer's goal, right? We never liked to fail. We never liked to do something twice, right? We don't want to, we want to learn the first time we make a mistake and not make it over and over again. So that those retrospectives and improving on what you're doing iteratively. And to the point you brought up and I like to bring this up a lot, 'cause I've been part not at MasterCard, but at other companies parts of companies that would talk a great game come up with great stories, say here's our plan. And then when we get ready to go to deliver it, we go and we reinvestigate the plan and see if there's a better plan. And then we get to a point where we're ready to go execute. And then we go back and start all over again, right. And you've got to deliver iteratively, if you don't, you're the point I like to always make is you're never going to be ready, right. It's like, when are you ready to have kids? You never ready to have kids, right. You just have to go and you'll learn as you go. You know so. >> Right, right, I love that. Well again, Ken, you have so much great stuff out there for technical people that want to dive in deep? So I encourage them just to do a simple YouTube or excuse me, YouTube search or Google search but I want to give you the last word. One word, I'm going to check the transcript when this thing is over that you've used probably more than any other word while we've been talking for the last few minutes is toil. And I think it's really interesting that it brings up and really highlights your empathy towards what you're trying to help developers avoid and what you're trying to help teams avoid so that they can be more productive. You keep saying, avoid the toil, get out of the toil, get out of this kind of crap that inhibits people from getting their job done and being creative and being inventive and being innovative. Where does that come from? And I just love that you keep reinforce it and just kind of your final perspective as we wrap on 2020 and another year of CNCF and clearly containers and Kubernetes and Cloud Native is continues to be on fire and on a tear. I just wonder if you can share a little bit of your perspective as a founding member as we kind of come to the end of 2020. >> Yeah definitely. Thanks again for having me. It's been a great, great discussion. I am a developer by background, by trade today, I still develop. I still contribute to open source and I've had this mantra pretty much my entire career that you have to get into the weeds and understand what everyone's experiencing in order to figure out how to solve the problems, right. You can't be in an ivory tower and look down and say, Oh, there's a problem, I'm going to go fix that. It just doesn't work that way. And most problems you try to solve in that model will be problems that no other team has really experienced. And there not going to be help, they're not going to be thankful that you solved the problem they don't have, right? They want you to solve a problem that they have. And so I think that that's sort of a key for the reason why I spent so much time talking about that as I live it every day. I understand it. I talk with my development community and with a broader community of developers at MasterCard and understand the pains that they're going through and try to help them every day with coming up with ways to help make their lives a lot easier. So it's important to me and to to all organizations out there and in all of the, in the world. So, CNCF its been great. It's still growing. I'm always looking for end users. I'd love to talk to you. Well, you can reach out to, to the CNCF if you'd like to learn more, our website has information on how to get connected to the end user community. We community within the CNCF that is not, it's a private community. So you don't have to worry about your information being shared. If you don't want people to know you belong to the community, you don't have to list that information. If you want to list it, you're welcome to list it. There's no expectations on you to contribute to open source, but we do encourage you to contribute, and are here to support that end user community any way we can. So thanks again for having us and looking forward to, to a great show in North America. >> All right well, thank you, Ken, for sharing your information sharing the insight, sharing the knowledge really appreciate it and great to catch up. All right. He's Ken, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE with our ongoing coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2020 North America Digital. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>> Announcer: From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is The Cube Conversation. >> Everyone welcome to this special live stream here in The Cube Studios. I'm John Furrier, your host. We've got a great panel discussion here for one hour, sponsored by Lumina PR, not sponsored but organized by Lumina PR. An authentic conversation around professionals in the news media, and communication professionals, how they can work together. As we know, pitching stories to national media takes place in the backdrop in today's market, which is on full display. The Coronavirus, racial unrest in our country and a lot of new tech challenges from companies, their role in society with their technology and of course, an election all make for important stories to be developed and reported. And we got a great panel here and the purpose is to bridge the two worlds. People trying to get news out for their companies in a way that's relevant and important for audiences. I've got a great panelists here, Gerard Baker Editor at Large with the Wall Street Journal, Eric Savitz, Associate Editor with Barron's and Brenna Goth who's a Southwest Staff Correspondent with Bloomberg Publications. Thanks for joining me today, guys, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> So we're going to break this down, we got about an hour, we're going to probably do about 40 minutes. I'd love to get your thoughts in this power panel. And you guys are on the front lines decades of experience, seeing these waves of media evolve. And now more than ever, you can't believe what's happening. You're seeing the funding of journalism really challenging at an all time high. You have stories that are super important to audiences and society really changing and we need this more than ever to have more important stories to be told. So this is really a challenge. And so I want to get your thoughts on this first segment. The challenge is around collecting the data, doing the analysis, getting the stories out, prioritizing stories in this time. So I'd love to get your thoughts. We'll start with you, Brenna, what's your thoughts on this as you're out there in Arizona. Coronavirus on the worst is one of the states there. What are your challenges? >> I would say for me, one of the challenges of the past couple months is just the the sheer influx of different types of stories we've had and the amount of news coming out. So I think one of the challenging things is a lot of times we'll get into a bit of a routine covering one story. So early on maybe the Coronavirus, and then something else will come up. So I personally have been covering some of the Coronavirus news here in Arizona and in the Southwest, as well as some of the protests we've seen with the Black Lives Matter movement. And prioritizing that is pretty difficult. And so one thing that I I've been doing is I've noticed that a lot of my routine projects or things I've been working on earlier in the year are off the table, and I'll get back to them when I have time. But for now, I feel like I'm a little bit more on breaking news almost every day in a way that I wasn't before. >> Gerard, I want to get your thoughts on this. Wall Street Journal has been since I could remember when the web hit the scene early on very digital savvy. Reporting, it's obviously, awesome as well. As you have people in sheltering in place, both journalists and the people themselves and the companies, there's an important part of the digital component. How do you see that as an opportunity and a challenge at the same time because you want to get data out there, you want to be collecting and reporting those stories? How do you see that opportunity, given the challenge that people can't meet face to face? >> First of all, thank you very much for having me. I think as we've all discovered in all fields of endeavor in the last three months, it's been quite a revelation, how much we can do without using without access to the traditional office environment. I think one of the things that Coronavirus, this crisis will have done we all agree I think is that it will have fundamentally changed the way people work. There'll be a lot more people quite a bit more working from home. They'll be a lot more remote working. Generally, there'll be a lot less travel. So on the one hand, it's been eye opening. actually how relatively easy, I use that word carefully. But how we've managed, and I think it's true of all news organizations, how we've managed surprisingly well, I think, without actually being at work. At the Wall Street Journal, we have a big office, obviously in midtown Manhattan, as well as dozens of bureaus around the world. Nobody has really been in that office since the middle of March. And yet we've put out a complete Wall Street Journal product, everything from the print edition, obviously, through every aspect of digital media, the website, all of the apps, video, everything, audio, podcasts. We've been able to do pretty well everything that we could do when we were all working in the office. So I think that will be an important lesson and that will clearly induce some change, some long term changes, I think about the way we work. That said, I'd point to two particular challenges that I think we have not properly overcome. Or if you like that we have, the two impediments, that the crisis has produced for us. One is, as you said, the absence of face to face activity, the hive process, which I think is really important. I think that a lot of the best ideas, a lot of the best, the best stories are developed through conversations between people in an office which don't necessarily we can't necessarily replicate through the online experience through this kind of event or through the Zoom meetings that we've all been doing. I think that has inhibited to some extent, some of the more creative activity that we could have done. I think the second larger problem which we all must face with this is that being essentially locked up in our homes for more than three months, which most of us has been I think accentuates a problem that is already that has been a problem in journalism for a long time, which is that journalists tend to cluster in the major metropolitan areas. I think, a couple of years ago, I read a study which said, I think that more than three quarters of journalists work for major news organizations, print, digital TV, radio, whatever, live and work in one of four major metropolises in the US. That's the New York area, the Washington DC area, the San Francisco area and the LA area. And that tends to create a very narrow worldview, unfortunately, because not enough people either come from those areas, but from outside those areas or spend enough time talking to people from outside those areas. And I think the Coronavirus has accentuated that. And I think in terms of coverage, I'm here in New York. I've been in New York continuously for three and a half months now which is quite unusual, I usually travel a lot. And so my reporting, I write columns now, mainly, but obviously I talk to people too. But the reporting, the editing that we're doing here is inevitably influenced by the experience that we've had in New York, which has obviously been, frankly, devastating. New York has been devastated by Coronavirus in a way that no where else in the country has. And I think to some extent, that does, perhaps have undue influence on the coverage. We're all locked up. We're all mindful of our own health. We're all mindful of people that we know who've gone to hospital or have been very, very sick or where we are, we are heavily influenced by our own immediate environment. And I think that has been a problem if we had been, imagine if the journalists in the country, instead of being clustered in New York and LA and San Francisco had been sort of spread over Texas and Missouri and Florida, things like that. I think you'd have a very different overall accounting of this story over the last three months. So I think it's just, it's accentuated that phenomenon in journalism, which I think we're mindful of, and which we all need to do a better job of addressing. >> It's really interesting. And I want to come back to that point around, who you're collaborating with to get this, now we have virtual ground truth, I guess, how you collaborate. But decision making around stories is, you need an open mind. And if you have this, I guess, I'll call it groupthink or clustering is interesting, now we have digital and we have virtual, it opens up the aperture but we still have the groupthink. But I want to get Eric's take first on his work environment, 'cause I know you've lived on both sides of New York and San Francisco area, as well as you've worked out in the field for agencies, as well on the other side, on the storytelling side. How has this current news environment, journalism environment impacted your view and challenges and your opportunities that you're going after the news? >> Well, so there's there's a few elements here. So one, Barron's Of course, covers the world, looks at the world through a financial lens. We cover the stock market every day. The stock market is not the center of story, but it is an important element of what's been unfolding over the last few months and the markets have been incredibly volatile, we change the way that we approach the markets. Because everything, the big stories are macro stories, huge swings in stock prices, huge swings in the price of oil, dramatic moves in almost every financial security that you can imagine. And so there's a little bit of a struggle for us as we try and shift our daily coverage to be a little more focused on the macro stories as we're still trying to tell what's happening with individual stocks and companies, but these bigger stories have changed our approach. So even if you look at say the covers of our magazine over the last few months, typically, we would do a cover on a company or an investor, that sort of thing. And now they're all big, thematic stories, because the world has changed. And world is changing how it looks at the financial markets. I think one thing that that Gerard touched on is the inability to really leave your house. I'm sitting in my little home office here, where I've been working since March, and my inability to get out and talk to people in person to have some, some interface with the companies and people that I cover, makes it tougher. You get story ideas from those interactions. I think Gerard said some of it comes from your interactions with your colleagues. But some of that also just comes from your ability to interact with sources and that is really tougher to do. It's more formalistic if you do it online. It's just not the same to be on a Zoom call as to be sitting in a Starbucks with somebody and talking about what's going on. I think the other elements of this is that there's, we have a lot of attempts, trying new things trying to reach our readers. We'll do video sessions, we'll do all sorts of other things. And it's one more layer on top of everything else is that there's a lot of demands on the time for the people who are working in journalism right now. I would say one other thing I'll touch on, John, which is, you mentioned, I did use, I worked for public communications for a while, and I do feel their pain because the ability to do any normal PR pitching for new products, new services, the kinds of things that PR people do every day is really tough. It's just really hard to get anybody's attention for those things right now. And the world is focused on these very large problems. >> Well, we'll unpack the PR comms opportunities in the next section. But I want to to just come back to this topic teased out from Gerard and Brenna when you guys were getting out as well. This virtual ground truth, ultimately, at the end of the day, you got to get the stories, you got to report them, they got to be distributed. Obviously, the Wall Street Journal is operating well, by the way, I love the Q&A video chats and what they got going on over there. So the format's are evolving and doing a good job, people are running their business. But as journalists and reporters out there, you got to get the truth and the ground truth comes from interaction. So as you have an aperture with digital, there's also groupthink on, say, Twitter and these channels. So getting in touch with the audience to have those stories. How are you collecting the data? How are you reporting? Has anything changed or shifted that you can point to because ultimately, it's virtual. You still got to get the ground truth, you still got to get the stories. Any thoughts on this point? >> I think in a way what we're seeing is in writ large actually is a problem again, another problem that I think digital journalism or the digital product digital content, if you like, actually presents for us today, which is that it's often said, I think rightly, that one of the, as successful as a lot of digital journalism has been and thank you for what you said about the Wall Street Journal. And we have done a tremendous job and by the way, one of the things that's been a striking feature of this crisis has been the rapid growth in subscriptions that we've had at the Journal. I know other news organizations have too. But we've benefited particularly from a hunger for the quality news. And we've put on an enormous number subscriptions in the last three months. So we've been very fortunate in that respect. But one of the challenges that people always say, one of the one of the drawbacks that people always draw attention to about digital content is that there's a lack of, for want of a better words, serendipity about the experience. When you used to read a newspaper, print newspapers, when may be some of us are old enough to remember, we'd get a newspaper, we'd open it up, we'd look at the front page, we look inside, we'd look at what other sections they were. And we would find things, very large number of things that we weren't particularly, we weren't looking for, we weren't expecting to, we're looking for a story about such. With the digital experience, as we know, that's a much it's a much less serendipitous experience. So you tend to a lot of search, you're looking, you find things that you tend to be looking for, and you find fewer things that, you follow particular people on social media that you have a particular interest in, you follow particular topics and have RSS feeds or whatever else you're doing. And you follow things that, you tend to find things that you were looking for. You don't find many things you weren't. What I think that the virus, the being locked up at home, again, has had a similar effect. That we, again, some of the best stories that I think anybody comes across in life, but news organizations are able to do are those stories that you know that you come across when you might have been looking for something else. You might have been working on a story about a particular company with a particular view to doing one thing and you came across somebody else. And he or she may have told you something actually really quite different and quite interesting and it took you in a different direction. That is easier to do when you're talking to people face to face, when you're actually there, when you're calling, when you're tasked with looking at a topic in the realm. When you are again, sitting at home with your phone on your computer, you tend to be more narrowly so you tend to sort of operate in lanes. And I think that we haven't had the breadth probably of journalism that I think you would get. So that's a very important you talk about data. The data that we have is obviously, we've got access broadly to the same data that we would have, the same electronically delivered data that we would have if we'd been sitting in our office. The data that I think in some ways is more interesting is the non electronically delivered data that is again, the casual conversation, the observation that you might get from being in a particular place or being with someone. The stimuli that arise from being physically in a place that you just aren't getting. And I think that is an important driver of a lot of stories. And we're missing that. >> Well, Gerard, I just want to ask real quick before I go to Brenna on her her take on this. You mentioned the serendipity and taking the stories in certain directions from the interactions. But also there's trust involved. As you build that relationship, there's trust between the parties, and that takes you down that road. How do you develop trust as you are online now? Is there a methodology or technique? Because you want to get the stories out fast, it's a speed game. But there's also the development side of it where a trust equation needs to build. What's your thoughts on that piece? Because that's where the real deeper stories come from. >> So I wasn't sure if you're asking me or Gerard. >> Gerard if he wants can answer that is the trust piece. >> I'll let the others speak to that too. Yeah, it is probably harder to... Again, most probably most people, most stories, most investigative stories, most scoops, most exclusives tend to come from people you already trust, right? So you've developed a trust with them, and they've developed a trust with you. Perhaps more importantly, they know you're going to treat the story fairly and properly. And that tends to develop over time. And I don't think that's been particularly impaired by this process. You don't need to have a physical proximity with someone in order to be able to develop that trust. My sources, I generally speak to them on the phone 99% of the time anyway, and you can still do that from home. So I don't think that's quite... Obviously, again, there are many more benefits from being able to actually physically interact with someone. But I think the level of, trust takes a long time to develop, let's be honest, too, as well. And I think you develop that trust both by developing good sources. and again, as I said, with the sources understanding that you're going to do the story well. >> Brenna, speed game is out there, you got to get stories fast. How do you balance speed and getting the stories and doing some digging into it? What's your thoughts on all this? >> I would say, every week is looking different for me these days. A lot of times there are government announcements coming out, or there are numbers coming out or something that really does require a really quick story. And so what I've been trying to do is get those stories out as quick as possible with maybe sources I already have, or really just the facts on the ground I can get quickly. And then I think in these days, too, there is a ton of room for following up on things. And some news event will come out but it sparks another idea. And that's the time to that when I'm hearing from PR people or I'm hearing from people who care about the issue, right after that first event is really useful for me to hear who else is thinking about these things and maybe ways I can go beyond the first story for something that more in depth and adds more context and provides more value to our readers. >> Awesome. Well, guys, great commentary and insight there on the current situation. The next section is with the role of PR, because it's changing. I've heard the term earned media is a term that's been kicked around. Now we're all virtual, and we're all connected. The media is all virtual. It's all earned at this point. And that's not just a journalistic thing, there's storytelling. There's new voices emerging. You got these newsletter services, audiences are moving very quickly around trying to figure out what's real. So comms folks are trying to get out there and do their job and tell a story. And sometimes that story doesn't meet the cadence of say, news and/or reporting. So let's talk about that. Eric, you brought this up. You have been on both sides. You said you feel for the folks out there who are trying to do their job. How is the job changing? And what can they do now? >> The news cycle is so ferocious at the moment that it's very difficult to insert your weigh in on something that doesn't touch on the virus or the economy or social unrest or the volatility of the financial markets. So I think there's certain kinds of things that are probably best saved for another moment in time, If you're trying to launch new products or trying to announce new services, or those things are just tougher to do right now. I think that the most interesting questions right now are, If I'm a comms person, how can I make myself and my clients a resource to media who are trying to tell stories about these things, do it in a timely way, not overreach, not try insert myself into a story that really isn't a good fit? Now, every time one of these things happen, we got inboxes full of pitches for things that are only tangentially relevant and are probably not really that helpful, either to the reporter generally or to the client of the firm that is trying to pitch an idea. But I will say on the on this at the same time that I rely on my connections to people in corporate comms every single day to make connections with companies that I cover and need to talk to. And it's a moment when almost more than ever, I need immediacy of response, accurate information access to the right people at the companies who I'm trying to cover. But it does mean you need to be I think sharper or a little more pointed a little more your thinking about why am I pitching this person this story? Because the there's no time to waste. We are working 24 hours a day is what it feels like. You don't want to be wasting people's time. >> Well, you guys you guys represent big brands in media which is phenomenal. And anyone would love to have their company mentioned obviously, in a good way, that's their goal. But the word media relations means you relate to the media. If there's no media to relate to, the roles change, and there's not enough seats at the table, so to speak. So getting a clip on in the clip book that gets sent to management, look, "We're on Bloomberg." "Great, check." But is at it? So people, this is a department that needs to do more. Is there things that they can do, that isn't just chasing, getting on your franchises stories? Because it obviously would be great if we were all on Barron's Wall Street Journal, and Bloomberg, but they can't always get that. They still got to do more. They got to develop the relationships. >> John, one thing I would be conscious of here is that many of our publications, it's certainly true for journalists, true for us at Barron's and it's certainly true for Bloomberg. We're all multimedia publishers. We're doing lots of things. Barron's has television show on Fox. We have a video series. We have podcasts and newsletters, and daily live audio chats and all sorts of other stuff in addition to the magazine and the website. And so part of that is trying to figure out not just the right publication, but maybe there's an opportunity to do a very particular, maybe you'd be great fit for this thing, but not that thing. And having a real understanding of what are the moving parts. And then the other part, which is always the hardest part, in a way, is truly understanding not just I want to pitch to Bloomberg, but who do I want to pitch at Bloomberg. So I might have a great story for the Wall Street Journal and maybe Gerard would care but maybe it's really somebody you heard on the street who cares or somebody who's covering a particular company. So you have to navigate that, I think effectively. And even, more so now, because we're not sitting in a newsroom. I can't go yell over to somebody who's a few desks away and suggest they take a look at something. >> Do you think that the comm-- (talk over each other) Do you think the comms teams are savvy and literate in multimedia? Are they still stuck in the print ways or the group swing is they're used to what they're doing and haven't evolved? Is that something that you're seeing here? >> I think it varies. Some people will really get it. I think one of the things that that this comes back to in a sense is it's relationship driven. To Gerard's point, it's not so much about trusting people that I don't know, it's about I've been at this a long time, I know what people I know, who I trust, and they know the things I'm interested in and so that relationship is really important. It's a lot harder to try that with somebody new. And the other thing is, I think relevant here is something that we touched on earlier, which is the idiosyncratic element. The ability for me to go out and see new things is tougher. In the technology business, you could spend half your time just going to events, You could go to the conferences and trade shows and dinners and lunches and coffees all day long. And you would get a lot of good story ideas that way. And now you can't do any of that. >> There's no digital hallway. There are out there. It's called Twitter, I guess or-- >> Well, you're doing it from sitting in this very I'm still doing it from sitting in the same chair, having conversations, in some ways like that. But it's not nearly the same. >> Gerard, Brenna, what do you guys think about the comms opportunity, challenges, either whether it's directly or indirectly, things that they could do differently? Share your thoughts. Gerard, we'll start with you? >> Well, I would echo Eric's point as far as knowing who you're pitching to. And I would say that in, at least for the people I'm working with, some of our beats have changed because there are new issues to cover. Someone's taking more of a role covering virus coverage, someone's taking more of a role covering protests. And so I think knowing instead of casting a really wide net, I'm normally happy to try to direct pitches in the right direction. But I do have less time to do that now. So I think if someone can come to me and say, "I know you've been covering this, "this is how my content fits in with that." It'd grab my attention more and makes it easier for me. So I would say that that is one thing that as beats are shifting and people are taking on a little bit of new roles in our coverage, that that's something PR and marketing teams could definitely keep an eye on. >> I agree with all of that. And all everything everybody said. I'd say two very quick things. One, exactly as everybody said, really know who you are pitching to. It's partly just, it's going to be much more effective if you're pitching to the right person, the right story. But when I say that also make the extra effort to familiarize yourself with the work that that reporter or that editor has done. You cannot, I'm sorry to say, overestimate the vanity of reporters or editors or anybody. And so if you're pitching a story to a particular reporter, in a field, make sure you're familiar with what that person may have done and say to her, "I really thought you did a great job "on the reporting that you did on this." Or, "I read your really interesting piece about that," or "I listened to your podcast." It's a relatively easy thing to do that yields extraordinarily well. A, because it appeals to anybody's fantasy and we all have a little bit of that. But, B, it also suggests to the reporter or the editor or the person involved the PR person communications person pitching them, really knows this, has really done their work and has really actually takes this seriously. And instead of just calling, the number of emails I get, and I'm sure it's the same for the others too, or occasional calls out of the blue or LinkedIn messages. >> I love your work. I love your work. >> (voice cuts out) was technology. Well, I have a technology story for you. It's absolutely valueless. So that's the first thing, I would really emphasize that. The second thing I'd say is, especially on the specific relation to this crisis, this Coronavirus issue is it's a tricky balance to get right. On the one hand, make sure that what you're doing what you're pitching is not completely irrelevant right now. The last three months has not been a very good time to pitch a story about going out with a bunch of people to a crowded restaurant or whatever or something like that to do something. Clearly, we know that. At the same time, don't go to the other extreme and try and make every little thing you have seen every story you may have every product or service or idea that you're pitching don't make it the thing that suddenly is really important because of Coronavirus. I've seen too many of those too. People trying too hard to say, "In this time of crisis, "in this challenging time, what people really want to hear "about is "I don't know, "some new diaper "baby's diaper product that I'm developing or whatever." That's trying too hard. So there is something in the middle, which is, don't pitch the obviously irrelevant story that is just not going to get any attention through this process. >> So you're saying don't-- >> And at the same time, don't go too far in the other direction. And essentially, underestimate the reporter's intelligence 'cause that reporter can tell you, "I can see that you're trying too hard." >> So no shotgun approach, obviously, "Hey, I love your work." Okay, yeah. And then be sensitive to what you're working on not try to force an angle on you, if you're doing a story. Eric, I want to get your thoughts on the evolution of some of the prominent journalists that I've known and/or communication professionals that are taking roles in the big companies to be storytellers, or editors of large companies. I interviewed Andy Cunningham last year, who used to be With Cunningham Communications, and formerly of Apple, better in the tech space and NPR. She said, "Companies have to own their own story "and tell it and put it out there." I've seen journalists say on Facebook, "I'm working on a story of x." And then crowdsource a little inbound. Thoughts on this new role of corporations telling their own story, going direct to the consumers. >> I think to a certain extent, that's valuable. And in some ways, it's a little overrated. There are a lot of companies creating content on their websites, or they're creating their own podcasts or they're creating their own newsletter and those kinds of things. I'm not quite sure how much of that, what the consumption level is for some of those things. I think, to me, the more valuable element of telling your story is less about the form and function and it's more about being able to really tell people, explain to them why what they do matters and to whom it matters, understanding the audience that's going to want to hear your story. There are, to your point, there are quite a few journalists who have migrated to either corporate communications or being in house storytellers of one kind or another for large businesses. And there's certainly a need to figure out the right way to tell your story. I think in a funny way, this is a tougher moment for those things. Because the world is being driven by external events, by these huge global forces are what we're all focused on right now. And it makes it a lot tougher to try and steer your own story at this particular moment in time. And I think you do see it Gerard was talking about don't try and... You want to know what other people are doing. You do want to be aware of what others are writing about. But there's this tendency to want to say, "I saw you wrote a story about Peloton "and we too have a exercise story that you can, "something that's similar." >> (chuckles) A story similar to it. We have a dance video or something. People are trying to glam on to things and taking a few steps too far. But in terms of your original question, it's just tougher at the moment to control your story in that particular fashion, I think. >> Well, this brings up a good point. I want to get to Gerard's take on this because the Wall Street Journal obviously has been around for many, many decades. and it's institution in journalism. In the old days, if you weren't relevant enough to make the news, if you weren't the most important story that people cared about, the editors make that choice and you're on the front page or in a story editorially. And companies would say, "No, but I should be in there." And you'd say, "That's what advertising is for." And that's the way it seemed to work in the past. If you weren't relevant in the spirit of the decision making of important story or it needs to be communicated to the audience, there's ads for that. You can get a full page ad in the old days. Now with the new world, what's an ad, what's a story? You now have multiple omni-channels out there. So traditionally, you want to get the best, most important story that's about relevance. So companies might not have a relevant story and they're telling a boring story. There's no there, there, or they miss the story. How do you see this? 'Cause this is the blend, this is the gray area that I see. It's certainly a good story, depending on who you're talking to, the 10 people who like it. >> I think there's no question. We're in the news business, topicality matters. You're going to have a much better chance of getting your story, getting your product or service, whatever covered by the Wall Street Journal, Barron's or anywhere else for that matter, if it seems somehow news related, whether it's the virus or the unrest that we've been seeing, or it's to do with the economy. Clearly, you can have an effect. Newspapers, news organizations of all the three news organizations we represent don't just, are not just obviously completely obsessed with what happened this morning and what's going on right now. We are all digging into deeper stories, especially in the business field. Part of what we all do is actually try to get beyond the daily headlines. And so what's happening with the fortunes of a particular company. Obviously, they may be impacted by they're going to be impacted by the lockdown and Coronavirus. But they actually were doing some interesting things that they were developing over the long term, and we would like to look into that too. So again, there is a balance there. And I'm not going to pretend that if you have a really topical story about some new medical device or some new technology for dealing with this new world that we're all operating in, you're probably going to get more attention than you would if you don't have that. But I wouldn't also underestimate, the other thing is, as well as topicality, everybody's looking at the same time to be different, and every journalist wants to do something original and exclusive. And so they are looking for a good story that may be completely unrelated. In fact, I would also underestimate, I wouldn't underestimate either the desire of readers and viewers and listeners to actually have some deeper reported stories on subjects that are not directly in the news right now. So again, it's about striking the balance right. But I wouldn't say that, that there is not at all, I wouldn't say there is not a strong role for interesting stories that may not have anything to do what's going on with the news right now. >> Brenna, you want to add on your thoughts, you're in the front lines as well, Bloomberg, everyone wants to be on Bloomberg. There's Bloomberg radio. You guys got tons of media too, there's tons of stuff to do. How do they navigate? And how do you view the interactions with comms folks? >> It looks we're having a little bit of challenge with... Eric, your thoughts on comm professionals. The questions in the chats are everything's so fast paced, do you think it's less likely for reporters to respond to PR comms people who don't have interacted with you before? Or with people you haven't met before? >> It's an internal problem. I've seen data that talks about the ratio of comms people to reporters, and it's, I don't know, six or seven to one or something like that, and there are days when it feels like it's 70 to one. And so it is challenging to break through. And I think it's particularly challenging now because some of the tools you might have had, you might have said, "Can we grab coffee one day or something like that," trying to find ways to get in front of that person when you don't need them. It's a relationship business. I know this is a frustrating answer, but I think it's the right answer which is those relationships between media and comms people are most successful when they've been established over time. And so you're not getting... The spray and pray strategy doesn't really work. It's about, "Eric, I have a story that's perfect for you. "And here's why I think you you should talk to this guy." And if they really know me, there's a reasonable chance that I'll not only listen to them, but I'll at least take the call. You need to have that high degree of targeting. It is really hard to break through and people try everything. They try, the insincere version of the, "I read your story, it was great. "but here's another great story." Which maybe they read your story, maybe they didn't at least it was an attempt. Or, "if you like this company, you'll love that one." People try all these tricks to try and get get to you. I think the highest level of highest probability of success comes from the more information you have about not just what I covered yesterday, but what do I cover over time? What kinds of stories am I writing? What kinds of stories does the publication write? And also to keep the pitching tight, I was big believer when I was doing comms, you should be able to pitch stories in two sentences. And you'll know from that whether there's going to be connection or not, don't send me five or more pitches. Time is of the essence, keep it short and as targeted as possible. >> That's a good answer to Paul Bernardo's question in the chat, which is how do you do the pitch. Brenna, you're back. Can you hear us? No. Okay. We'll get back to her when she gets logged back in. Gerard, your thoughts on how to reach you. I've never met you before, if I'm a CEO or I'm a comms person, a company never heard of, how do I get your attention? If I can't have a coffee with you with COVID, how do I connect with you virtually? (talk over each other) >> Exactly as Eric said, it is about targeting, it's really about making sure you are. And again, it's, I hate to say this, but it's not that hard. If you are the comms person for a large or medium sized company or even a small company, and you've got a particular pitch you want to make, you're probably dealing in a particular field, a particular sector, business sector or whatever. Let's say it says not technology for change, let's say it's fast moving consumer goods or something like that. Bloomberg, Brenna is in an enormous organization with a huge number of journalist you deal and a great deal of specialism and quality with all kinds of sectors. The Wall Street Journal is a very large organization, we have 13, 1400 reporters, 13 to 1400 hundred journalist and staff, I should say. Barron's is a very large organization with especially a particularly strong field coverage, especially in certain sectors of business and finance. It's not that hard to find out A, who is the right person, actually the right person in those organizations who's been dealing with the story that you're trying to sell. Secondly, it's absolutely not hard to find out what they have written or broadcast or produced on in that general field in the course of the last, and again, as Eric says, going back not just over the last week or two, but over the last year or two, you can get a sense of their specialism and understand them. It's really not that hard. It's the work of an hour to go back and see who the right person is and to find out what they've done. And then to tailor the pitch that you're making to that person. And again, I say that partly, it's not purely about the vanity of the reporter, it's that the reporter will just be much more favorably inclined to deal with someone who clearly knows, frankly, not just what they're pitching, but what the journalist is doing and what he or she, in his or her daily activity is actually doing. Target it as narrowly as you can. And again, I would just echo what Eric and I think what Brenna was also saying earlier too that I'm really genuinely surprised at how many very broad pitches, again, I'm not directly in a relative role now. But I was the editor in chief of the Journal for almost six years. And even in that position, the number of extraordinarily broad pitches I get from people who clearly didn't really know who I was, who didn't know what I did, and in some cases, didn't even really know what Wall Street Journal was. If you can find that, if you actually believe that. It's not hard. It's not that hard to do that. And you will have so much more success, if you are identifying the organization, the people, the types of stories that they're interested in, it really is not that difficult to do. >> Okay, I really appreciate, first of all, great insight there. I want to get some questions from the crowd so if you're going to chat, there was a little bit of a chat hiccup in there. So it should be fixed. We're going to go to the chat for some questions for this distinguished panel. Talk about the new coffee. There's a good question here. Have you noticed news fatigue, or reader seeking out news other than COVID? If so, what news stories have you been seeing trending? In other words, are people sick and tired of COVID? Or is it still on the front pages? Is that relevant? And if not COVID, what stories are important, do you think? >> Well, I could take a brief stab at that. I think it's not just COVID per se, for us, the volatility of the stock market, the uncertainties in the current economic environment, the impact on on joblessness, these massive shifts of perceptions on urban lifestyles. There's a million elements of this that go beyond the core, what's happening with the virus story. I do think as a whole, all those things, and then you combine that with the social unrest and Black Lives Matter. And then on top of that, the pending election in the fall. There's just not a lot of room left for other stuff. And I think I would look at it a little bit differently. It's not finding stories that don't talk on those things, it's finding ways for coverage of other things whether it's entertainment. Obviously, there's a huge impact on the entertainment business. There's a huge impact on sports. There's obviously a huge impact on travel and retail and restaurants and even things like religious life and schooling. I have the done parents of a college, was about to be a college sophomore, prays every day that she can go back to school in the fall. There are lots of elements to this. And it's pretty hard to imagine I would say to Gerard's point earlier, people are looking for good stories, they're always looking for good stories on any, but trying to find topics that don't touch on any of these big trends, there's not a lot of reasons to look for those. >> I agree. Let me just give you an example. I think Eric's exactly right. It's hard to break through. I'll just give you an example, when you asked that question, I just went straight to my Wall Street Journal app on my phone. And of course, like every organization, you can look at stories by sections and by interest and by topic and by popularity. And what are the three most popular stories right now on the Wall Street Journal app? I can tell you the first one is how exactly do you catch COVID-19? I think that's been around since for about a month. The second story is cases accelerate across the United States. And the third story is New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, tell travelers from areas with virus rates to self isolate. So look, I think anecdotally, there is a sense of COVID fatigue. Well, we're all slightly tired of it. And certainly, we were probably all getting tired, or rather distressed by those terrible cases and when we've seen them really accelerate back in March and April and these awful stories of people getting sick and dying. I was COVID fatigued. But I just have to say all of the evidence we have from our data, in terms of as I said earlier, the interest in the story, the demand for what we're doing, the growth in subscriptions that we've had, and just as I said, little things like that, that I can point you at any one time, I can guarantee you that our among our top 10 most read stories, at least half of them will be COVID-19. >> I think it's safe to say general interest in that outcome of progression of that is super critical. And I think this brings up the tech angle, which we can get into a minute. But just stick with some of these questions I just want to just keep these questions flowing while we have a couple more minutes left here. In these very challenging times for journalism, do byline articles have more power to grab the editors attention in the pitching process? >> Well, I think I assume what the questioner is asking when he said byline articles is contributed. >> Yes. >> Contributed content. Barron's doesn't run a lot of contributing content that way in a very limited way. When I worked at Forbes, we used to run tons of it. I'm not a big believer that that's necessarily a great way to generate a lot of attention. You might get published in some publication, if you can get yourself onto the op ed page of The Wall Street Journal or The New York Times, more power to you. But I think in most cases-- >> It's the exception not the rule Exception not the rule so to speak, on the big one. >> Yeah. >> Well, this brings up the whole point about certainly on SiliconANGLE, our property, where I'm co founder and chief, we basically debate over and get so many pitches, "hey, I want to write for you, here's a contributed article." And it's essentially an advertisement. Come on, really, it's not really relevant. In some case we (talk over each other) analysts come in and and done that. But this brings up the question, we're seeing these newsletters like sub stack and these services really are funding direct journalism. So it's an interesting. if you're good enough to write Gerard, what's your take on this, you've seen this, you have a bit of experience in this. >> I think, fundamental problem here is that is people like the idea of doing by lines or contributed content, but often don't have enough to say. You can't just do, turn your marketing brochure into a piece of an 800 word with the content that that's going to be compelling or really attract any attention. I think there's a place for it, if you truly have something important to say, and if you really have something new to say, and it's not thinly disguised marketing material. Yeah, you can find a way to do that. I'm not sure I would over-rotate on that as an approach. >> No, I just briefly, again, I completely agree. At the Journal we just don't ever publish those pieces. As Eric says, you're always, everyone is always welcome to try and pitch to the op ed pages of the Journal. They're not generally going to I don't answer for them, I don't make those decisions. But I've never seen a marketing pitch run as an op ed effectively. I just think you have to know again, who you're aiming at. I'm sure it's true for Bloomberg, Barron's and the Journal, most other major news organizations are not really going to consider that. There might be organizations, there might be magazines, digital and print magazines. There might be certain trade publications that would consider that. Again, at the Journal and I'm sure most of the large news organizations, we have very strict rules about what we can publish. And how and who can get published. And it's essentially journal editorials, that journal news staff who can publish stories we don't really take byline, outside contribution. >> Given that your time is so valuable, guys, what's the biggest, best practice to get your attention? Eric, you mentioned keeping things tight and crisp. Are there certain techniques to get your attention? >> Well I'll mention just a couple of quick things. Email is better than most other channels, despite the volume. Patience is required as a result because of the volume. People do try and crawl over the transom, hit you up on LinkedIn, DM you on Twitter, there's a lot of things that people try and do. I think a very tightly crafted, highly personalized email with the right subject line is probably still the most effective way, unless it's somebody you actually, there are people who know me who know they have the right to pick up the phone and call me if they really think they have... That's a relationship that's built over time. The one thing on this I would add which I think came up a little bit before thinking about it is, you have to engage in retail PR, not not wholesale PR. The idea that you're going to spam a list of 100 people and think that that's really going to be a successful approach, it's not unless you're just making an announcement, and if you're issuing your earnings release, or you've announced a large acquisition or those things, fine, then I need to get the information. But simply sending around a very wide list is not a good strategy, in most cases, I would say probably for anyone. >> We got Brenna back, can you hear me? She's back, okay. >> I can hear you, I'm back. >> Well, let's go back to you, we missed you. Thanks for coming back in. We had a glitch on our end but appreciate it, bandwidth internet is for... Virtual is always a challenge to do live, but thank you. The trend we're just going through is how do I pitch to you? What's the best practice? How do I get your attention? Do bylines lines work? Actually, Bloomberg doesn't do that very often either as well as like the Journal. but your thoughts on folks out there who are really trying to figure out how to do a good job, how to get your attention, how to augment your role and responsibilities. What's your thoughts? >> I would say, going back to what we said a little bit before about really knowing who you're pitching to. If you know something that I've written recently that you can reference, that gets my attention. But I would also encourage people to try to think about different ways that they can be part of a story if they are looking to be mentioned in one of our articles. And what I mean by that is, maybe you are launching new products or you have a new initiative, but think about other ways that your companies relate to what's going on right now. So for instance, one thing that I'm really interested in is just the the changing nature of work in the office place itself. So maybe you know of something that's going on at a company, unlimited vacation for the first time or sabbaticals are being offered to working parents who have nowhere to send their children, or something that's unique about the current moment that we're living in. And I think that those make really good interviews. So it might not be us featuring your product or featuring exactly what your company does, but it still makes you part of the conversation. And I think it's still, it's probably valuable to the company as well to get that mention, and people may be looking into what you guys do. So I would say that something else we are really interested in right now is really looking at who we're quoting and the diversity of our sources. So that's something else I would put a plug in for PR people to be keeping an eye on, is if you're always putting up your same CEO who is maybe of a certain demographic, but you have other people in your company who you can give the opportunity to talk with the media. I'm really interested in making sure I'm using a diverse list of sources and I'm not just always calling the same person. So if you can identify people who maybe even aren't experienced with it, but they're willing to give it a try, I think that now's a really good moment to be able to get new voices in there. >> Rather than the speed dial person you go to for that vertical or that story, building out those sources. >> Exactly. >> Great, that's great insight, Everyone, great insights. And thank you for your time on this awesome panel. Love to do it again. This has been super informative. I love some of the engagement out there. And again, I think we can do more of these and get the word out. I'd like to end the panel on an uplifting note for young aspiring journalists coming out of school. Honestly, journalism programs are evolving. The landscape is changing. We're seeing a sea change. As younger generation comes out of college and master's programs in journalism, we need to tell the most important stories. Could you each take a minute to give your advice to folks either going in and coming out of school, what to be prepared for, how they can make an impact? Brenna, we'll start with you, Gerard and Eric. >> That's a big question. I would say one thing that has been been encouraging about everything going on right now as I have seen an increased hunger for information and an increased hunger for accurate information. So I do think it can obviously be disheartening to look at the furloughs and the layoffs and everything that is going on around the country. But at the same time, I think we have been able to see really big impacts from the people that are doing reporting on protests and police brutality and on responses to the virus. And so I think for young journalists, definitely take a look at the people who are doing work that you think is making a difference. And be inspired by that to keep pushing even though the market might be a little bit difficult for a while. >> I'd say two things. One, again, echoing what Brenna said, identify people that you follow or you admire or you think are making a real contribution in the field and maybe directly interact with them. I think all of us, whoever we are, always like to hear from young journalists and budding journalists. And again, similar advice to giving to the advice that we were giving about PR pitches. If you know what that person has been doing, and then contact them and follow them. And I know I've been contacted by a number of young journalists like that. The other thing I'd say is and this is more of a plea than a piece of advice. But I do think it will work in the long run, be prepared to go against the grain. I fear that too much journalism today is of the same piece. There is not a lot of intellectual diversity in what we're seeing There's a tendency to follow the herd. Goes back a little bit to what I was saying right at the opening about the fact that too many journalists, quite frankly, are clustered in the major metropolitan areas in this country and around the world. Have something distinctive and a bit different to say. I'm not suggesting you offer some crazy theory or a set of observations about the world but be prepared to... To me, the reason I went into journalism was because I was always a bit skeptical about whenever I saw something in any media, which especially one which seemed to have a huge amount of support and was repeated in all places, I always asked myself, "Is that really true? "Is that actually right? "Maybe there's an alternative to that." And that's going to make you stand out as a journalist, that's going to give you a distinctiveness. It's quite hard to do in some respects right now, because standing out from the crowd can get you into trouble. And I'm not suggesting that people should do that. Have a record of original storytelling, of reporting, of doing things perhaps that not, because look, candidly, there are probably right now in this country, 100,00 budding putative journalists who would like to go out and write about, report on Black Lives Matter and the reports on the problems of racial inequality in this country and the protests and all of that kind of stuff. The problem there is there are already 100,000 of those people who want to do that in addition to probably the 100,000 journalists who are already doing it. Find something else, find something different. have something distinctive to offer so that when attention moves on from these big stories, whether it's COVID or race or politics or the election or Donald Trump or whatever. Have something else to offer that is quite distinctive and where you have actually managed to carve out for yourself a real record as having an independent voice. >> Brenna and Gerard, great insight. Eric, take us home close us out. >> Sure. I'd say a couple things. So one is as a new, as a young journalist, I think first of all, having a variety of tools in your toolkit is super valuable. So be able to write long and write short, be able to do audio, blogs, podcast, video. If you can shoot photos and the more skills that you have, a following on social media. You want to have all of the tools in your toolkit because it is challenging to get a job and so you want to be able to be flexible enough to fill all those roles. And the truth is that a modern journalist is finding the need to do all of that. When I first started at Barron's many, many years ago, we did one thing, we did a weekly magazine. You'd have two weeks to write a story. It was very comfortable. And that's just not the way the world works anymore. So that's one element. And the other thing, I think Gerard is right. You really want to have a certain expertise if possible that makes you stand out. And the contradiction is, but you also want to have the flexibility to do lots of different stories. You want to get (voice cuts out) hold. But if you have some expertise, that is hard to find, that's really valuable. When Barron's hires we're always looking for people who have, can write well but also really understand the financial markets. And it can be challenging for us sometimes to find those people. And so I think there's, you need to go short and long. It's a barbell strategy. Have expertise, but also be flexible in both your approach and the things you're willing to cover. >> Great insight. Folks, thanks for the great commentary, great chats for the folks watching, really appreciate your valuable time. Be original, go against the grain, be skeptical, and just do a good job. I think there's a lot of opportunity. And I think the world's changing. Thanks for your time. And I hope the comms folks enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for joining us, everyone. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> I'm John Furrier here in the Cube for this Cube Talk was one hour power panel. Awesome conversation. Stay in chat if you want to ask more questions. We'll come back and look at those chats later. But thank you for watching. Have a nice day. (instrumental music)

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with top leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE Conversation. >> Hi everybody, I'm Dave Vellante, and welcome to the Vertica Big Data Conference virtual. This is our digital presentation, wall to wall coverage actually, of the Vertica Big Data Conference. And with me is Jeff Healy, who directs product marketing at Vertica. Jeff, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Thanks for the opportunity to chat. >> You're very welcome Now I'm excited about the products that you guys announced and you're hardcore into product marketing, but we're going to talk about the Vertica Big Data Conference. It's been a while since you guys had this. Obviously, new owner, new company, some changes, but that new company Microfocus has announced that it's investing, I think the number was $70 million into two areas. One was security and the other, of course, was Vertica. So we're really excited to be back at the virtual Big Data Conference. And let's hear it from you, what are your thoughts? >> Yeah, Dave, thanks. And we love having theCUBE at all of these events. We're thrilled to have the next Vertica Big Data Conference. Actually it was a physical event, we're moving it online. We know it's going to be a big hit because we've been doing this for some time particularly with two of the webcast series we have every month. One is under the Hood Webcast Series, which is led by our engineers and the other is what we call a Data Disruptors Webcast Series, which is led by all customers. So we're really confident this is going to be a big hit we've seen the registration spike. We just hit 1,000 and we're planning on having about 1,000 at the physical event. It's growing and growing. We're going to see those big numbers and it's not going to be a one time thing. We're going to keep the conversation going, make sure there's plenty of best practices learning throughout the year. >> We've been at all the big BDCs and the first one's were really in the heart of the Big Data Movement, really exciting time and the interesting thing about this event is it was always sort of customers talking to customers. There wasn't a lot of commercials, an intimate event. Of course I loved it because it was in our hometown. But I think you're trying to carry that theme obviously into the digital sphere. Maybe you can talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, Dave, absolutely right. Of course, nothing replaces face to face, but everything that you just mentioned that makes it special about the Big Data Conference, and you know, you guys have been there throughout and shown great support in talking to so many customers and leaders and what have you. We're doing the same thing all right. So we had about 40 plus sessions planned for the physical event. We're going to run half of those and we're not going to lose anything though, that's the key point. So what makes the Vertica Big Data Conference really special is that the only presenters that are allowed to present are either engineers, Vertica engineers, or best practices engineers and then customers. Customers that actually use the product. There's no sales or marketing pitches or anything like that. And I'll tell you as far as the customer line up that we have, we've got five or six already lined up as part of those 20 sessions, customers like Uber, customers like the Trade Desk, customers like Phillips talking about predictive maintenance, so list goes on and on. You won't want to miss it if you're on the fence or if you're trying to figure out if you want to register for this event. Best part about it, it's all free, and if you can't attend it live, it will be live Q&A chat on every single one of those sessions, we promise we'll answer every question if we don't get it live, as we always do. They'll all be available on demand. So no reason not to register and attend or watch later. >> Thinking about the content over the years, in the early days of the Big Data Conference, of course Vertica started before the whole Big Data Conference meme really took off and then as it took off, plugged right into it, but back then the discussion was a lot of what do I do with big data, Gartner's three Vs and how do I wrangle it all, and what's the best approach and this stuff is, Hadoop is really complicated. Of course Vertica was an alternative to RDBMS that really couldn't scale or give that type of performance for analytical databases so you had your foot in that door. But now the conversation that's interesting your theme, it's win big with data. Of course, the physical event was at the Encore, which is the new Casino in Boston. But my point is, the conversation is no longer about, how to wrangle all this data, you know how to lower the cost of storing this data, how to make it go faster, and actually make it work. It's really about how to turn data into insights and transform your organizations and quote and quote, win with big data. >> That's right. Yeah, that's great point, Dave. And that's why I mean, we chose the title really, because it's about our customers and what they're able to do with our platform. And it's we know, it's not just one platform, all of the ecosystem, all of our incredible partners. Yeah it's funny when I started with the organization about seven years ago, we were closing lots of deals, and I was following up on case studies and it was like, Okay, why did you choose Vertica? Well, the queries went fast. Okay, so what does that mean for your business? We knew we're kind of in the early adopter stage. And we were disrupting the data warehouse market. Now we're talking to our customers that their volumes are growing, growing and growing. And they really have these analytical use cases again, talk to the value at the entire organization is gaining from it. Like that's the difference between now and a few years ago, just like you were saying, when Vertica disrupted the database market, but also the data warehouse market, you can speak to our customers and they can tell you exactly what's happening, how it's moving the needle or really advancing the entire organization, regardless of the analytical use case, whether it's an internet of things around predictive maintenance, or customer behavior analytics, they can speak confidently of it more than just, hey, our queries went faster. >> You know, I've mentioned before the Micro Focus investment, I want to drill into that a bit because the Vertica brand stands alone. It's a Micro Focus company, but Vertica has its own sort of brand awareness. The reason I've mentioned that is because if you go back to the early days of MPP Database, there was a spate of companies, startups that formed. And many if not all of those got acquired, some lived on with the Codebase, going into the cloud, but generally speaking, many of those brands have gone away Vertica stays. And so my point is that we've seen Vertica have staying power throughout, I think it's a function of the architecture that Stonebraker originally envisioned, you guys were early on the market had a lot of good customer traction, and you've been very responsive to a lot of the trends. Colin Mahony will talk about how you adopted and really embrace cloud, for example, and different data formats. And so you've really been able to participate in a lot of the new emerging waves that have come out to the market. And I would imagine some of that's cultural. I wonder if you could just address that in the context of BDC. >> Oh, yeah, absolutely. You hit on all the key points here, Dave. So a lot of changes in the industry. We're in the hottest industry, the tech industry right now. There's lots of competition. But one of the things we'll say in terms of, Hey, who do you compete with? You compete with these players in the cloud, open source alternatives, traditional enterprise data warehouses. That's true, right. And one of the things we've stayed true within calling is really kind of led the charge for the organization is that we know who we are right. So we're an analytical database platform. And we're constantly just working on that one sole Source Code base, to make sure that we don't provide a bunch of different technologies and databases, and different types of technologies need to stitch together. This platform just has unbelievable universal capabilities from everything from running analytics at scale, to in Database Machine Learning with the different approach to all different types of deployment models that are supported, right. We don't go to our companies and we say, yeah, we take care of all your problems but you have to stitch together all these different types of technologies. It's all based on that core Vertica engine, and we've expanded it to meet all these market needs. So Colin knows and what he believes and what he tells the team what we lead with, is that it lead with that one core platform that can address all these analytical initiatives. So we know who we are, we continue to improve on it, regardless of the pivots and the drastic measures that some of the other competitors have taken. >> You know, I got to ask you, so we're in the middle of this global pandemic with Coronavirus and COVID-19, and things change daily by the hour sometimes by the minute. I mean, every day you get up to something new. So you see a lot of forecasts, you see a lot of probability models, best case worst case likely case even though nobody really knows what that likely case looks like, So there's a lot of analytics going on and a lot of data that people are crunching new data sources come in every day. Are you guys participating directly in that, specifically your customers? Are they using your technology? You can't use a traditional data warehouse for this. It's just you know, too slow to asynchronous, the process is cumbersome. What are you seeing in the customer base as it relates to this crisis? >> Sure, well, I mean naturally, we have a lot of customers that are healthcare technology companies, companies, like Cerner companies like Philips, right, that are kind of leading the charge here. And of course, our whole motto has always been, don't throw away any the data, there's value in that data, you don't have to with Vertica right. So you got petabyte scale types of analytics across many of our customers. Again, just a few years ago, we called the customers a petabyte club. Now a majority of our large enterprise software companies are approaching those petabyte volumes. So it's important to be able to run those analytics at that scale and that volume. The other thing we've been seeing from some of our partners is really putting that analytics to use with visualizations. So one of the customers that's going to be presenting as part of the Vertica Big Data conferences is Domo. Domo has a really nice stout demo around be able to track the Coronavirus the outbreak and how we're getting care and things like that in a visual manner you're seeing more of those. Well, Domo embeds Vertica, right. So that's another customer of ours. So think of Vertica is that embedded analytical engine to support those visualizations so that just anyone in the world can track this. And hopefully as we see over time, cases go down we overcome this. >> Talk a little bit more about that. Because again, the BDC has always been engineers presenting to audiences, you guys have a lot of you just mentioned the demo by Domo, you have a lot of brand names that we've interviewed on theCUBE before, but maybe you could talk a little bit more about some of the customers that are going to be speaking at the virtual event, and what people can expect. >> Sure, yeah, absolutely. So we've got Uber that's presenting just a quick fact around Uber. Really, the analytical data warehouse is all Vertica, right. And it works very closely with Open Source or what have you. Just to quick stat on on Uber, 14 million rides per day, what Uber is able to do is connect the riders with the drivers so that they can determine the appropriate pricing. So Uber is going to be a great session that everyone will want to tune in on that. Others like the Trade Desk, right massive Ad Tech company 10 billion ad auctions daily, it may even be per second or per minute, the amount of scale and analytical volume that they have, that they are running the queries across, it can really only be accomplished with a few platforms in the world and that's Vertica that's another a hot one is with the Trade Desk. Philips is going to be presenting IoT analytical workloads we're seeing more and more of those across not only telematics, which you would expect within automotive, but predictive maintenance that cuts across all the original manufacturers and Philips has got a long history of being able to handle sensor data to be able to apply to those business cases where you can improve customer satisfaction and lower costs related to services. So around their MRI machines and predictive maintenance initiative, again, Vertica is kind of that heartbeat, that analytical platform that's driving those initiatives So list goes on and on. Again, the conversation is going to continue with the Data Disruptors in the Under Hood webcast series. Any customers that weren't able to present and we had a few that just weren't able to do it, they've already signed up for future months. So we're already booked out six months out more and more customer stories you're going to hear from Vertica.com. >> Awesome, and we're going to be sharing some of those on theCUBE as well, the BDC it's always been intimate event, one of my favorites, a lot of substance and I'm sure the online version, the virtual digital version is going to be the same. Jeff Healey, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE and give us a little preview of what we can expect at the Vertica BDC 2020. >> You bet. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, Dave, thanks to you and the whole CUBE team. Appreciate it >> Alright, and thank you for watching everybody. Keep it right here for all the coverage of the virtual Big Data conference 2020. You're watching theCUBE. I'm Dave Vellante, we'll see you soon

(techno music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a Cube conversation. >> Hi, and welcome to theCube studios for another Cube conversation, where we go in depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry. I'm your host, Peter Burris. The notion of data services has been around for a long time, but it is being up-ended, recast, reformed, as a consequence of what cloud can do. But that also means that cloud is creating new ways of thinking about data services, new opportunities to introduce and drive this powerful approach of thinking about digital businesses centralized assets and to have that conversation about what that means, we've got Chadd Kenney, who is a VP and chief technologist of Clumio with us today. Chad, welcome to theCube. >> Thanks so much for having me. >> Okay, so let's start with that notion of data services, and the role the cloud is going to play. Clumio has looked at this problem, or looked at this challenge from the ground up. What does that mean? >> So if you look at the cloud as a whole, customers have gone through a significant journey. We've seen the first shadow IT kind of play out, where the people decided to go to the cloud, IT was too slow. It moved into kind of a cloud first movement, where people realized the power of cloud services. That then got them to understand a little bit of interesting things that have played out. One, moving applications as they exist were not very efficient, and so they needed to re-architect certain applications. Second, SaaS was a core way of getting to the cloud in a very simplistic fashion without having to do much whatsoever, and so for applications that were not core competencies, they realized they should go Saas and for anything that was a core competency, they needed to really re-architect to be able to take advantage of those very powerful cloud services. And so when you look at it, if people were to develop applications today, cloud is the default that you'd go toward. And so for us, we had the luxury of building from the cloud up on the very powerful cloud services to enable a much more simple model for our customers to consume, but even more so, to be able to actually leverage the agility and elasticity of the cloud. Think about this for a quick second, we can take facilities, break them up, expand them across many different compute resources within the cloud, versus having to take kind of what you did on-prem in a single server, or multitudes of servers, and try to plant that in the cloud. From a customer's experience perspective, it's vastly different. You get a world where you don't think about how you manage the infrastructure, how you manage the service, you just consume it, and the value that customers get out of that, is not only getting their data there, which is the on-ramp around our data protection mechanisms, but also being able to leverage cloud-native services on top of that data in the longer term, as we have this one common global index and platform. What we are super excited today to announce is that we are adding in AWS native capabilities to be able to protect that data in the public cloud. And this is kind of the default place where most people go to from a cloud perspective, to really get their applications up and running and take advantage of a lot of those cloud-native services. >> Well, if you're going to be cloud native and promise to customers is you are going to support their workload, you've got to be, obviously, on AWS. So congratulations on that. Let's go back to this notion of, you used the word powerful. AWS is a mature platform. GCP is coming along very rapidly. Azure is, you know, also very, very good, and there are others as well, but sometimes enterprises discover that they have to make some trade-offs. To get the simplicity, they have to get less function. To get the reliability, they have to get rid of simplicity. How does Clumio think through those trade-offs to deliver that simple, that powerful, that reliable platform for something as important as data protection and data services in general? >> So we wanted to create an experience that was single click, discover everything, and be able to help people consume that service quickly. And if you look at the problem that people are dealing with, customers talk to us about this all the time is the power of the cloud resulted in 100s if not 1000s of accounts within AWS. And now you get into a world where you are having to try to figure out how to I manage all these for one, discover all of it, and consistently make sure that my data, which as you mentioned, is incredibly important to businesses today, is protected. And so having that one common view is incredibly important to start with. And the simplicity of that is immensely powerful. When you look at what we do as a business to make sure that that continues to occur is first we leverage cloud-native services on the back, which are complex, and getting those things to run and orchestrate are things that we build on the back-end. On the front-end, we take the customer's view in looking at what is the most simple way of getting this experience to occur for both discovery, as well as, you know backup, recovery, and even being able to search in a global fashion. And so really taking their seats to figure out what would be the easiest way to both consume the service and then also be able to get value from it by running that service. >> AWS has been around, well, AWS in many respects founded the cloud industry. It is certainly sales force on the Saas side, but AWS was that first company to make the promise that it was going to provide this very flexible, very powerful, very agile infrastructure as a service. And they have done an absolutely marvelous job about it. And they have also advanced the state of the art of the technology dramatically and in many respects are in the driver's seat. What trade-offs, what limits does your new platform face as it goes to AWS or is it the same Clumio experience adding now all of the capabilities of AWS? >> That's a great question because I think a lot of solutions out there today are different parts and pieces kind of clumped together. What we built is a platform that these new services just get instantly added, next time you log in to that service, you will see that available to you, and you can just go ahead and log in to your accounts and be able to discover directly. And I think that the power of SaaS is really that. Not only have we made it immensely secure, which is something that people think about quite a bit, with having not only data in flight but data at rest encryption, and leveraging really the cloud capabilities of security, but we have made it incredibly simple for them to be able to consume that easily, literally not lift a finger to get anything done, it's available for you when you log into that system. And so, having more and more data sources in one single pane of glass, and being able to see all of the accounts, especially in AWS where you have quite a few of those accounts, and to be able to apply polices in a consistent fashion to ensure that you are, you know, compliant within the environment for whatever business requirements that you have around data protection, is immensely powerful to our customers. >> Chadd Kenney, chief technologist, Clumio, thanks very much for being on theCube. >> Thank you. >> And thanks for joining us for another Cube conversation. I'm Peter Burris, see you next time. (techno music)

our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley Palo Alto California this is a cute conversation welcome to another wiki bond digital community event this one's sponsored by Columbia I'm your host Peter Burris any business that aspires to be a digital business needs to think about its data differently it needs to think about how data can be applied to customer experience value propositions operations that improve profitability and strategic options for the business as it moves forward but that means openly either we're thinking about how we embed data more deeply into our operations that means we must also think about how we're going to protect that data so the business does not suffer because someone got a hold of our data or corrupted our data or that a system just failed and we needed to restore that data very quickly now what we want to be able to do is we want to do that in a way that's natural and looks a lot like a cloud because we want that cloud experience in our data protection as well so that's we're going to talk about with clue Meo today a lot of folks think in terms of moving all the data into the cloud we think increasingly we have to recognize a cloud is not a strategy for centralizing data but rather distributing data and being able to protect that data where it is utilizing a simple common cloud like experience it's becoming an increasingly central competitive need for a lot of digital enterprises the first conversation we had was with a puja and Kumar who John is a CEO and co-founder of comeö let's hear a puja I had to say about data value data services and clue me oh who john welcome to the show Thank You Bertram nice to be here so give us the update in Colombia so Tomio is a two year old company right we just recently launched out of stealth so so far you know we we came out with the innovative offering which is a SAS solution to go and protect on premises you know VMware and BMC environments that's what we launched out of style two months ago we our best of show when we came out of stealth in in VMware 2019 well ultimately we started with a vision about you know protecting data irrespective of where it resides so it was all about you know you know on-premises on cloud and other SAS services so one single service that protects data irrespective of where it resides so far we executed on on-premises VMware and VM see today what we are announcing for the first time is our protection to go and protect applications natively built on AWS so these are applications that an aptitude natively built on AWS that clue me or as a service will protect irrespective of you know them running you know in one region or cross region cross accounts and a single service that will allow our customers to protect native AWS applications the other big announcement we are making is a new round of financing and that is testament to the interest in the space and the innovative nature of the platform that we have built so when we came out of stealth we announced we had raised two rounds of financing 51 million dollars in series a and Series B rounds of financing today what we are announcing is a Series C round of financing of 135 million dollars the largest I would say Series C financing for a SAS enterprise company especially a company that's a little over two years old Oh congratulations that's gonna buy a lot of new technology and a lot of customer engagement but what customers as I said up from where customers are really looking for is they're looking for tooling and methods and capabilities that allow them to treat their data differently talk a little bit about the central importance of data and how it's driving decisions of Cluny oh yes so fundamentally you know when we built out the the data platform it was about going after the data protection as the first use case in the platform longer term the journey really is to go from a data protection company to a data management company and this is possible for the first time because you have the public cloud on your side if you truly built a platform for the cloud on the public cloud you have this distinct advantage of now taking the data that you're protecting and really leveraging it for others that you can enable the enterprise for and this is exactly what enterprises are asking for especially as they you know you know make a transition from on-premises to the public cloud where they are powering on more and more applications in the public cloud and they really you know sometimes have no idea in terms of where the data is sitting and how they can take advantage of all these data sources that ultimately Klum is protecting well no idea where the data is sitting take advantage of these data sources presumably facilitate new classes of integration because that's how you generate value out of data that suggests that we're not just looking at protection as crucially important as it is we're looking at new classes of services they're going to make it possible to alter the way you think about data management if I got that right and what are those new services yes it's it's a journey as I said right so starting with you know again data protection it's also about doing data protection across multiple clouds right so ultimately we are a platform even though we are announcing you know AWS you know application support today we've already done VMware and VM C as we go along you'll see us kind of doing this across multiple clouds so an application that's built on the cloud running across multiple clouds AWS asher and GC p or whatever it might be you see as kind of doing data protection across in applications in multiple clouds and then it's about going and saying you know can we take advantage of the data that we are protecting and really power on adjacent use cases you know they could be security use cases because we know exactly what's changing when it's changing there could be infrastructure analytics use cases because people are running tens of thousands of instances and containers and n VMs in the public cloud and if a problem happens nobody really knows what caused it and we have all the data and we can kind of you know index it in the backend analyze in the backend without the customer needing to lift a finger and really show them what happened in their environment that they didn't know about right so there's a lot of interesting use cases that get powered on because you have the ability to index all the data here you have the ability to essentially look at all the changes that are happening and really give that visibility to the end customer and all of this one-click and automating it without the customer needing to do much I will tell you this that we've talked to a number of customers of Cuneo and the fundamental choice the clue mio choice was simplicity how are you going to sustain that even as you add these new classes of services yes that is the key right and that is about the foundation we have built at the end of the day right so if you look at all of our customers that have you know on-boarded today it's really the experience where in less than you know 15 minutes they can essentially start enjoying the power of the platform and the backend that we have built and the focus on design that we have is ultimately why we are able to do this with simplicity so so when we when we think about you know all the things we do in the backend there's obviously a lot of complexity in the backend because it is a complex platform but every time we ask ourselves the question that okay from a customer perspective how do we make sure that it is one click and easy for them so that focus and that attention to detail that we have behind the scenes to make sure that the customer ultimately should just consume the service and should not need to do anything more than what they absolutely need to do so that they can essentially focus on what adds value to their business takes a lot of Technology a lot of dedication to make complex things really simple absolutely whoo John Kumar CEO and co-founder of Clue leo thanks very much for being on the cube Thank You bigger great conversation with poo John data value leading to data services now let's think a little bit more about how enterprises ultimately need to start thinking about how to manifest that in a cloud rich world Chad Kenny is the vice president and chief technologist at Kumi oh and Chad and I had an opportunity to sit down and talk about some of the interesting approaches that are possible because of cloud and very importantly to talk about a new announcement that clew mios making as they expand their support of different cloud types let's see what Chad had to say the notion of data services has been around for a long time but it's being upended recast reformed as a consequence of what cloud can do but that also means that cloud is creating new ways of thinking about data services new opportunities to entry and drive this powerful approach of thinking about digital businesses centralized assets and to have that conversation about what that means we've got Chad Kenny who's a VP and chief technologist of comeö with us today Chad welcome to the cube thanks so much for having me okay so let's start with that notion of data services and the role the clouds gonna play loomio has looked at this problem with this challenge from the ground up what does that mean so if you look at the the cloud as a whole customers have gone through a significant journey we've seen you know that the first shadow IT kind of play out where people decided to go to the cloud IT was too slow it moved into kind of a cloud first movement where people realize the power of cloud services that then got them to understand a little bit of interesting things that played out one moving applications as they exist were not very efficient and so they needed to react exort anapa second SAS was a core way of getting to the cloud in a very simplistic fashion without having to do much of whatsoever and so for applications that were not core competencies they realized they should go SAS and for anything that was a core competency they needed to really reaaargh attack to be able to take advantage of those you know very powerful cloud services and so when you look at it if people were to develop applications today cloud is the default that you'd go towards and so for us we had the luxury of building from the cloud up on these very powerful cloud services to enable a much more simple model for our customers to consume but even more so to be able to actually leverage the agility and elasticity of the cloud think about this for a quick second we can take facilities break them up expand them across many different computer resources within the cloud versus having to take kind of what you did on Prem in a single server or multitudes of servers and try to plant that in the cloud from a customer's experience perspective it's vastly different you get a world where you don't think about how you manage the infrastructure how you manage the service you just consume it and the value that customers get out of that is not only getting their data there which is the on-ramp around our data protection mechanisms but also being able to leverage cloud native services on top of that data in the longer term as we have this one common global index and path and what we're super excited today to announce is that we're adding in AWS native capabilities to be able to date and protect that data in the public cloud and this is kind of the default place where most people go to from a cloud perspective to really get their applications up and running and take advantage of a lot of those cloud native services well if you're gonna be cloud native and promised to customers as you can support their workloads you got to be obviously on AWS so congratulations on that but let's go back to this notion of user word powerful mm-hmm 80 of us is a mature platform GCPs coming along very rapidly asher is you know also very very good and there are others as well but sometimes enterprises discover that they have to make some trade-offs to get the simplicity they have to get less function to get the reliability they have to get rid of simplicity how does ku mio think through those trade-offs to deliver that simple that powerful that reliable platform for something as important as data protection and data services in general so we wanted to create an experience that was single click discover everything and be able to help people consume that service quickly and if you look at the problem that people are dealing with a customer's talked to us about this all the time is the power of the cloud resulted in hundreds if not thousands of accounts within AWS and now you get into a world where you're having to try to figure out how do I manage all of these for one discover all of it and consistently make sure that my data which as you've mentioned is incredibly important to businesses today as protect it and so having that one common view is incredibly important to start with and the simplicity of that is immensely powerful when you look at what we do as a business to make sure that that continues to occur is first we leverage cloud native services on the back which are complex and and and you know getting those things to run and orchestrate are things that we build on the back end on the front end we take the customer's view and looking at what is the most simple way of getting this experience to occur for both discovery as well as you know backup for recovery and even being able to search in a global fashion and so really taking their seats to figure out what would be the easiest way to both consume the service and then also be able to get value from it by running that service AWS has been around well AWS in many respects founded the cloud industry it's it's you know certainly Salesforce and the south side but AWS is the first company to make the promise that it was going to provide this very flexible very powerful very agile infrastructure as a service and they've done an absolutely marvelous job about it and they've also advanced the state of the art of the technology dramatically and in many respects are in the driver's seat what trade offs what limits does your new platform face as it goes to AWS or is it the same coolio experience adding now all of the capabilities of AWS it's a great question because I think a lot of solutions out there today are different parts and pieces kind of klom together well we built is a platform that these new services just get instantly added next time you log into that service you'll see that that available to you and you can just go ahead and log in to your accounts and be able to discover directly and I think that the Vout the power of SAS is really that not only have we made it immensely secure which is something that people think about quite a bit with having you know not only data in flight but data at rest encryption and and leveraging really the cloud capabilities of security but we've made it incredibly simple for them to be able to consume that easily literally not lift a finger to get anything done it's available for you when you log into that system and so having more and more data sources in one single pane of glass and being able to see all the accounts especially in AWS where you have quite a few of those accounts and to be able to apply policies in a consistent fashion to ensure that you're you know compliant within the environment for whatever business requirements that you have around data protection is immensely powerful to our customers Chad Kenney chief technologist plumie Oh thanks very much for being on the tube thank you great conversation Chad especially interested in hearing about how klum EO is being extended to include AWS services within its overall data protection approach and obviously into Data Services but let's take a little bit more into that Columbia was actually generated and prepared a short video that we could take a look at that goes a little bit more deeply into how this is all going to work [Music] enterprises are moving rapidly to the cloud embracing sass for simplified delivery of key services in this cloud centric world IT teams can focus on more strategic work accelerating digital transformation initiatives when it comes to backup IT is stuck designing patching and capacity planning for on-premise systems snapshots alone for data protection in the public cloud is risky and there are hundreds of unprotected SAS applications in the typical enterprise the move to cloud should make backup simpler but it can quickly become exponentially worse it's time to rethink the backup experience what if there were no hardware software or virtual appliances to size configure manage or even buy it all and by adding Enterprise backup public cloud workloads are no longer exposed to accidental data deletion and ransomware at Clube o we deliver secure data backup and recovery without any of that complexity or risk we provide all of the critical functions of enterprise backup d dupe and scheduling user and key management and cataloging because we're built in the public cloud we can rapidly deliver new innovations and take advantage of inherent data security controls our mission is to protect your data wherever it's stored the clew mio authentic SAS backup experienced scales on-demand to manage and protect your data more easily and efficiently and without things like cloud bills or egress charges pluto gives you predictable costs monitoring global backup compliance is far simpler and the built-in always-on security of Clue mio means that your data is safe take advantage of the cloud for backup with no constraints clew mio authentic SAS for the enterprise great video as we think about moving forward in the future and what customers are trying to do we have to think more in terms of the native services that cloud can provide and how to fully exploit them to increase the aggregate flexible both within our enterprises but also based on what our supplies have to offer we had a great conversation with wounds Young who is the CTO and co-founder of Clue mio about just that let's hear it wound had to say everybody's talking about the cloud and what the cloud might be able to do for their business the challenge is there are a limited number of people in the world who really understands what it means to build for the cloud utilizing the cloud it's a lot of approximations out there but not a lot of folks are deeply involved in actually doing it right we've got one here with us today woo Jung is the CTO and co-founder of Cluny o moon welcome to the cube how they tittie here so let's start with this issue of what it means to build for the cloud now loomio has made the decision to have everything fit into that as a service model what is that practically mean so from the engineering point of view building our SAS application is fundamentally different so the way that I'll go and say is that at Combe you know we actually don't build software and ship software what we actually do it will service and service is what we actually ship to our customers let me give you an example in the case of chromium they say backups fail like software sometimes fails and we get that failures too the difference in between criminal and traditional solutions is that if something were to fail we are the one detecting that failure before our customers - not only that when something fails we actually know exactly why you fail therefore we can actually troubleshoot it and we can actually fix it and upgrade the service without the customer intervention so it's not about the bugs also or about the troubleshooting aspect but it's also about new features if you were to introduce our new features we can actually do this without having customers upgraded code we will actually do it ourselves so essentially it frees the customers from actually doing all these actions because we will do them on behalf of them at scale and I think that's the second thing I want to talk about quickly is that the ability to use the cloud to do many of the things that you're talking about at scale creates incredible ranges of options that customers have at their disposal so for example AWS customers have historically used things like snapshots to provide a modicum of data protection to their AWS workloads but there are other new options that could be applied if the system's are built to supply them give us a sense of how kkumeul is looking at this question of you know snapshots versus something else yeah so basically traditionally even on the on print side of the things you have something called a snapshot and you had your backups right and they're they're fundamentally different but if you actually shift your gears and you look at what they WS offers today they actually offers the ability for you to take snapshots but actually that's not a backup right and they're fundamentally different so let's talk about it a little bit more what it means to be snapshots and a backup right so let's say there's a bad actor and your account gets compromised like your AWS account gets compromised so then the bad actor has access not only to the EBS volumes but also to the EBS snapshots what that means is that that person can actually go ahead and delete the EBS volume as well as the EBS snapshots now if you had a backup let's say you actually take a backup of that EBS volume to Kumu that bad actor will have access to the EBS volumes however you won't be able to delete the backup that we actually have in Kumu so in the whole thing the idea of Kumi on is that you should be able to protect all of your assets that being either an on-prem or an AWS by setting up a single policies and these are true backups and not just snapshots and that leads to the last question I have which is ultimately the ability to introduce these capabilities at scale creates a lot of new opportunities that customers can utilize to do a better job of building applications but also I presume managing how they use AWS because snapshots and other types of service can expand dramatically which can increase your cost how is doing it better with things like native backup services improve a customer's ability to administer their AWS spend and accounts great question so essentially if you look at the enterprise's today obviously they have multiple you know on-premise data centers and also a different cloud providers that the you like AWS and Azure and also a few SAS applications right so then the idea is for kkumeul is to create this single platform where all of these things can actually be backed up in a uniform way where you can actually manage all of them and then the other thing is all doing it in the cloud so if you think about it if you don't solve the poem fundamentally in the cloud there's things that you end up paying later on so let's take an example right moving bytes moving bytes in between one server to the other traditionally basically moving bytes from one rack to the other it was always free you never had to pay anything for that certainly in the data center alright but if you actually go to the public cloud you cannot say the same thing right basically moving by it across aw s recent regions is not free anymore moving data from AWS to the on premises that's not free either so these are all the things that any you know car provider service provider like ours has to consider and actually solve so that the customers can only back it up into Kumu but then they actually can leverage different cloud providers you know in a seamless way without having to worry all of this costs associated with it so kkumeul we should be able to back it up but we should be able to also offer mobility in between either AWS backup VMware or VNC so if I can kind of summarize what you just said that you want to be able to provide to an account to an enterprise the ability to not have to worry about the backend infrastructure from a technical and process standpoint but not also have to worry so much about the backend infrastructure from a cost and financial standpoint that by providing a service and then administering how that service is optimally handled the customer doesn't have to think about some of those financial considerations of moving data around in the same way that they used to oh I got that right I absolutely yes basically multiple accounts multiple regions multiple providers it is extremely hard to manage what Cuneo does it will actually provide you a single pane of glass where you can actually manage them all but then if you actually think about just and manageability this actually you can actually do that by just building a management layer on top of it but more importantly you and we need to have a single data you know repository for you for us to be able to provide a true mobility in between them one is about managing but the other thing is about if you're done if you're done it the real the right way it provides you the ability to move them and it leverages the cloud power so that you don't have to worry about the cloud expenses but kkumeul internally is the one are actually optimizing all of this try our customers wound jeong CTO and co-founder of Kaleo thanks very much for being on the queue thank you thanks very much moon I want to thank chromeo for providing this important content about the increasingly important evolution of data protection and cloud now here's your opportunity to weigh in on this crucially important arena what do you think about this evolving relationship how do you foresee it operating in your enterprise what comments do you have what questions do you have of the thought leaders from Cluny oh and elsewhere that's what we're gonna do now we're gonna go into the crowd chat and we're gonna hear from each other about this really important topic and what you foresee in your enterprise as your digital business transforms let's crouch at

(jazzy music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicone Valley Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Abby Kearns, the Executive Director of The Cloud Foundry Foundation, my cohost. With Blair Hanley Frank, Principal Analyst at ISG Insights. Blair, great to see you, former journalist at Venturebeat. >> Great to see you again. >> Great to have you on theCUBE finally. Yes, likewise. It's good to be here. >> Thanks for coming on. So, I'd love to start to find out what you're working on. You've been covering the tech sector as a journalist now, as an analyst. You've always done good work, I always admired what you've done. I'm sure you're digging into some really good stuff. What are you researching? What are some of the things you're finding around cloud? What the, what's the data tell us? >> Yeah, awesome. So we have a forthcoming cloud study where we talked to 300 enterprise IT decision makers and we asked them what they're doing today what they're looking to do in the future and how they're doing it. And we're taking all of that information and we're putting that together with the information that we have from ISG's advisor and practitioner community. And building an understanding of where the market is and where it should be. And that's what we have going on today. One of the things that we think is really important, is when we look and the data and we look what's going on in the market, what we find really important is that enterprises today are starting to move to the cloud. They have some workloads in SaaS. They have some workloads in a public cloud, IaaS or PaaS. And then they have a lot of stuff that's still on premises. And that exists in a wide variety of workloads. Whether that's on bare metal, whether that's virtualized whether that's some sort of cloud native or containerized application that's still running on prem all the way up until the cloud and what we see is that those different modes of operation are actually going to continue to exist throughout the enterprise. Even as we see more workloads shift into the public cloud. Enterprises aren't realistically going to be able to retire all of their on premises investments for the foreseeable future. >> Nor should they. >> Right And so what they-- >> Amazon confirmed that with Outposts. You saw Azure Stack, I mean that's total. I mean, first the VMware deal, the RDS on premises, and then you've got the Outpost which still hasn't, we haven't heard anything about that. That's validation, Amazon essentially saying, "I'm going to put cloud on premise." >> Yeah. >> Cloud Operations. So certainly that's validated. The question I want to ask you and Abby, get your thoughts too if you want to chime in over the top. But I've always been critical of the cloud market share game, right? Like, I've always been vocal on theCUBE. Because it's always been infrastructure service, platform service and then SAS is the application. Now Amazon has some SAS but most of their SAS is their customers. Google's got G Suite, they've got their own SAS. Microsoft's got Office 365. So when you start bundling SAS revenues into cloud market share and revenue projections. You start to see, you know, sandbagging of the numbers. I mean you can talk to sales forces today in a work day, they have clouds. So what's a cloud? What is cloud technologies? And, you know, Azure as that develops all the sudden has this massive market share. And it didn't really exist a few years ago. Where'd that come from? Is that just a shift of some sandbagging on the revenue side? Or is that actually real cloud? Or is it, so this is the game that the customer has to squint through. Now we in the industry know that okay, a little bit of Office 365. Okay, is that really cloud? >> Yeah, I mean, when you think about financials with cloud vendors. Everybody is playing a slightly different shell game. And generally speaking, you're not really going to get real numbers from anybody. Except possibly Amazon. And the reason why Amazon is able to do that is because the financial results for AWS look great. But everybody else is going to be masking. >> But they don't have a lot of SaaS though. The think about there, their SaaS number is their customer base. So I mean-- >> Yeah, but I would argue cloud is nothing but infrastructure with a SaaS on top of it. I mean, we talk about cloud as if there's some magic kind of thing happening over here. But it's basically a different kind of data center with a different kind of SaaS on top of it. And I think if I'm, if it's me reporting my numbers out. Well, I'm going to make them look as good as I possibly can. >> CUBE Cloud is coming out with great numbers. (laughing) >> I mean, look. You're going to make it look as great as you can. I mean, infrastructure is infrastructure is infrastructure. But now like, when you talk about SAS on top of that. Well, what's cloud? What's not? And it's super, it's a very fungible definition. >> Alright, I'm not disagreeing on that point. I see how that makes sense. The question for people who are making quote, "decisions" on the buyers side. They tend to think of things like "cloud supplier"? Is that really a word? Like what does that mean? So if you're going to say cloud's part of a workload is that actually even relevant. A "cloud supplier", I mean, I guess they're supplying cloud to you. But, so when you start to get into the vendors versus the buyers and the consuming of the technology. We get in that old school game of trying to put things into like market share, revenue. I mean, I see Amazon just kicking ass ten ways from Sunday. And I think Azure's certainly doing some good things there. Google, we're going to see what's going on with Google. They've got great direction. But, it's like apples, oranges and pears. Right, like are they all the same or different? And then throw Salesforce in there. This is where it muddies the water. >> And Alibaba. >> Alibaba! So, I mean, so it's hard to like figure this out. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how you guys see that in the studies. Are customers confused? Do they have some visibility into what they want to do? What's out there in the data on this point. >> So, what I will say directionally speaking, SaaS is where the market is going. So when we asked our survey respondents for where are there applications today and where did they want to go? 90% of those people we surveyed, 90% of the 300 people we surveyed around the world said in 2019 we are primarily in a hybrid mode. Where our applications are on premises and in a public cloud. 5% of them said, the majority of our applications are in SaaS. Now when you look at 2021, 37% say that they expect to be in a hybrid mode. 61% expect that they are going to be majority SaaS for their workloads, in two years. >> So they're in build up mode, they're in shifting mode. >> They're shifting, and they're not just, they're planning to shift to SaaS. They're planning to, they want to get out of the business of running applications. And put some of that burden onto providers to say, "Okay, it's your job to run the application. We'll provide the data. We'll build our business processes but we don't want our job to be running those apps." And what we see is that when you look at total cost of ownership, our respondents found SaaS to be far more predictable in terms of TCO than IaaS and PaaS. And again, for those people who are are really paying attention. If you think about it, that doesn't. Like, that's not a surprise. But on the other hand, that's like, I think that's part of where the driver comes from. Is that when you're consuming a SaaS product, it's very understandable. It's very consumable. When you think about running application in an Iaas, PaaS environment. Maybe not so much. It's going to be, you're more in charge of that application. So-- >> And SaaS has got immediate gratification. >> Exactly. >> I mean, you see the benefits. >> Easy to consume. >> Is there revenue there, is it doing its objective? Why is the IAZ fuzzy? Just because it's a classic back office kind of mindset? Or is it more of maturity? It seems mature to me, I mean, I don't I think IAZ has been more mature than ever before right now. Now we kind of-- >> I think its been around awhile, I mean I'd love to hear your answer. I think it's, there's just, I feel it's a relic of the past. Whereas, it's not something we spend much time thinking about. Like, there's that old joke. You know, "Great job keeping the servers up" said no CEO ever. Right? (laughing) >> That's a good point. But now apart from the servers you've got SageMaker, you've seen what Amazon's moving with the Stack with SageMaker. Machine learning, all of this kind of SASification kind of platform creeping up to the top of the stack. It seems to be what everyone talks about. I'm sure Google next will hear all about AI and how Iot Edge or some focus around that piece. So, again I agree. It's the commoditization is just another distraction layer on top of it. >> Yeah. >> Sure. >> We've seen that movie before. >> We're moving up the stack, we're just moving up the stack at a faster pace than we have in the last two decades. >> So bottom line, Blair. What's the survey, what's the net net telling us? What's coming out of it? >> So the net net here is really that enterprises need to have a strategy and an operating model in place for the long haul. When they think about their cloud strategy overall, this is something where they're not going to be able to snap their fingers and get to cloud-native nirvana overnight. Because that requires technical change, it requires culture change, it requires process change. There's a lot of very heavy lifting that takes place and not all of the applications that exist in an enterprise today really need that heavy lift. And so when you think about what the future holds for enterprises. They really need to build a model for how they are going to make that transition as smooth as possible. Take advantage of the new capabilities that are entering the market as quickly as possible to help advance their business. While at the same time having the opportunity to work across all of those different modes of operation and do so with high reliability, high customer satisfaction, high performance. All of the things that you need to succeed as a business in 2019. >> So I totally agree. This is a heavy lift to go kill the old and bring in the new. And one of the things that I've seen as a trend, and I'd love to get your guys' thoughts on this, as a reaction. Because I've seen the Kubernetes trend really let a lot of air out of that tension. Because it allows people to get in with containers to get in around some workloads and bring kind of baby steps into transitioning stuff. And I've seen people saying, "You know what. I like the idea of going cloud but I got this app that I really don't want to shut it down and have to rebuild it. But I could put some containers around things, run it on some Vms, use Kubernetes to orchestrate it." So I think this has been, I'm not sure if it's actually been deployed in massive production. But I've heard people say that. Is that hype or is that reality? Is it becoming a crutch, is it a short term transitional? >> I got to drag out my soap box for this 'cause I have a soap box for this. >> Okay, let's go. >> I'm not a big believer in lift and shift. I think there are times where it may be opportunistic. When you're like end of life-ing hardware or something like that. But I'm not a big believer that a cloud is a goal. Because cloud should not be your goal. If I'm a business, my goal should not be cloud. My goal should be, how do I write more applications more quickly? And maybe, how do I use infrastructure in better and more efficient ways? But cloud is not my goal. If that's my goal, then I'm going to be really sad at the end of the day. Because that hasn't made my business better. So I think, I feel like we've all over rotated-- >> You're saying it's not the outcome. The outcome is the app that benefits from doing that. >> The outcome, if you're a bank and you tell me your goal is to be on the cloud. Well, then I'm like, you've got the wrong goal. Your goal should be, how am I writing more applications and getting them out into the hands of my customer and changing my business faster? If the cloud gets me to that, great! But that may not be the answer for all of your workloads and you need to really think about that before you say "my goal is cloud". My goal is to write more applications faster. Period. And if that's on the cloud or if that's on prim or if that's on bare metal, what have you. But I need to really think about what my outcome is. And I feel like we've really focused on the cloud as the solution and that's not the solution. And if you're check boxing, you know, I'm done for the year because I moved a bunch of stuff to the cloud. Well you're, the works not done. The work is the culture part and the team part and really figuring out the applications I need to create And how do I iterate on those applications? The cloud is just, it's a bi product of that. >> It should be enabling the outcome they want. >> Right. >> That's a great soap box. Your thoughts on the overall lift and shift soap box rant by my cohost Abby here? >> Yeah, I think that the, the big opportunity is to do what's right for the business. That's ultimately what should be driving any sort of transformation. I had a conversation with a start up once. They were very focused on taking their monolithic application and going to microservices. And they were like, "we're going to go to microservices. That's what we want to do because that's the future. That's what a modern application looks like." And they started decomposing their application what I would call radically decomposing their application. Getting down to the atomic, you know, moment of how small can we make every single piece of this application. What they figured out was that it was a massive headache. And so they actually then, took it and sort of re-composed the application into not microservices but what they called mega-services. Where they-- >> And then they ended up writing a book and being famous and doing a speaking tour. But they didn't achieve the objective. >> And so, and that's exactly it. That they all of the sudden created this host of technical problems by pursuing an ideal that wasn't-- >> And this is the danger, the dogma. Danger of having the dogma of a certain trend. I remember during the big data days when we were covering the Duke movement around 2010, 2011, 2012. I would hear this all the time in side cloud era. "Man, I just set up an 18 note cluster. I'm so pumped!" Well, what are you doing with it? "Well, I just collect data." I'm like well, I get it, I get. And then what happened was, that was their end game. We see a lot of that with clouds, your point where, it's not about, it's what you're using it for. And then they had to make up the term data lake after that. So again, they just kept adding on more but they actually missed the entire boat because it was about making data addressable for apps. >> It used to make things useful. >> So this is the danger of the tech world. >> And making it useful. Yeah, I feel like we follow the shiny penny. As opposed to saying, "Actually is that actually even relevant for me?" You know, when Docker came out in 2014 and every conversation started with, that was the answer for everything. Whatever you wanted. Do you want toast for lunch? Docker? And I feel like that was the answer for everything. And I feel like, why? Like, one, why do you care about a container? And two, like why? >> Containers were pretty cool though. >> Sure, they're cool. But containers have been around since 1969. >> Summer of love. The containers, ya know? >> It was, but I feel like, ya know everyone's like "that's my answer" and you're like "Well, what's the question you're asking?" And I feel like we continue, we went from Docker to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And I feel like we're not pausing to say "actually what are we hoping to gain?" You're point. >> So Kubernetes, what do you think is Kubernetes a shiny penny or shiny new toy? Or does that have any relevance in your mind in your soap box? Where does Kubernetes fit into your, your view. >> I mean I think Kubernetes is an amazing technology that has done a lot for the way think about scheduling and container orchestration. But it is also become victim of the shiny penny and that everyone is like "Kubernetes!" And you know, two years ago everyone is like "Kubernetes!" It's like how many people were using it two years ago? Not that many. And so I think about it in this like, and I often ask, "Why do you care so much about a container orchestrator?" >> FTO sold almost 650 million or whatever the number. >> 515, I know the Vmware. >> Is it 515 was the number? >> 515. >> That's half a billion dollars. That's Kubernetes' ca ching. >> I lived my two years, my last two years wrong. That's what I did. (laughing) But that's a different story about all of my mistakes. >> You could have been the Kubernetes foundation. >> But I think-- >> CNCF is doing pretty well, I mean, that community is rallying. It feels like an Amazon alternative. They feel cloud, it's very cloud native. So I think Kubernetes has been a good rallying cry, for sure. >> It is but I think you're also, you know, what you see even in CNCF which has so many amazing technologies. I do not want to take away from that but you also see the shiny penny effect happening within that community. You know, when I went to CUBECON in December you know, what was the hot topic? It wasn't Kubernetes it was Istio. You heard Istio everywhere. And I've never seen this many people so excited about service mesh in my life. I'm like "Great! This is awesome!" >> We love it on theCUBE, it's great content. Service mesh is great. Who wouldn't want policy staple applications? Come on! >> Well, ultimately the like-- >> Hold on. (inhaling) >> Exactly >> Have some of that staple, I'm saying. Fantasyland. >> I'm excited about it. >> No, stakes hard. >> Well, and this is what I end up telling clients is you want to adopt the parts of the stack that are necessary for you to solve the problems that you have. Right? If you are in the position where you need a service mesh, you know because you are having problems that only a service mesh can solve. And if you aren't in that position then you get to be like the 60% of respondents in our survey who said that they are currently experimenting with a service mesh. Or, the 33% who say that they plan to use it in the future. >> 60% are experimenting with it? >> Yeah, well, probably-- >> That numbers way high. >> Well, it's probably somebody has it running on some VM somewhere. >> It seems really high. >> Well if you look at the success at CUBECON one of the things that, Envoy is a great example, and you talk about some of the challenges-- >> Envoys great. >> The challenges that enterprises have. If you look at the success of all the open source projects, the ones that have been super successful. It's the folks that had to build it for themselves. Envoy had a lift. And I think this is a challenge that I see. I haven't really figured it out in the enterprise yet, how that's going to play out. It generally seems to be that the enterprises don't necessarily want to be like them. But they want the same kind of control. "I want to roll out my own cloud." But they don't want to have an open stack problem. Meaning, they don't want to have something that's not supported. So you have this kind of new changeover vibe going. I really haven't put my finger on it but it's, it has that same vibe. >> Well, enterprises are more in control. And what we've seen in our research is that enterprises actually feel comfortable now. They no longer feel like they're in the fog of war like "I don't know what's goin on!" They're more like "Oh, we actually understand and we're on it." And they're being more thoughtful about the technologies that they use. And they are experimenting more. And they're feeling really confident. But you know, my caution is always, use the technology when it makes sense, as it makes sense. But at the end of the day as a business owner, your fundamental question is, does this serve my outcomes? Does this serve my business outcomes? And if the answer is, I don't know. Then really think about what you're investing in in terms of technology. I mean, I love all of these technologies. But I'm never going to recommend all of them if that's not actually going to be in your best interest. >> That's great stuff. Well, thanks for coming on Blair. Appreciate it. You going to be at Google next? Cloud Foundry in Philly? In April, first week of April? >> Unfortunately, I won't make it to the Cloud Foundry Summit. >> Google Next, next month? >> Sure will. >> Alright, We'll see you there. >> Abby, thanks for co hosting this segment with me. >> Any time, John. >> Sharing the data here with my cohost Abby and John here. Co hosting the first ever CUBE, What we'd call it? Cloud? >> Cloud CUBE. >> Cloud CUBE. >> Rebrand. >> TheCUBE, thanks for watching. (jazzy music)

>> Everyone. Welcome to a special cube conversation. We're here in Palo Alto, California Cube Studios. I'm John, four year host of the Q. We hear Atomic Wild, the CEO of Snapper out. Tom. Great to see you. You doing? I'm great. Thanks. You guys. You're launching Snapper. Snapper out. What is the company? What do you guys launching? Tell us. >> Well, quite simply stated were delivering a new class of network operating system for the cloud native era. Andrea Lee. What that does, is it. It delivers on the promise of time to service for applications. Always on security assurance and compliance. Andi greater operational efficiency, which is really one of the things that's been plaguing organizations tonight. >> How long is the company been around? This is the first public launch. A solution? Talk about the history real quick. >> So the company was founded in two thousand fifteen by some former operators from Apple. They built and ran Apple. Sort of biggest public facing data centers from the networking perspective on DH. You know, we've been working diligently on this. This is a new class of operating system that was really inspired by, you know, that their time building out those data centers on def. You, you kind of look back. NETWORKINGS not really had any major disruptive innovation in the last twenty five, thirty years. Ah, but back into the two thousand six, with the advent of a Ws and the and the new sort of big, hyper scaler tze, those guys started to realize that the network was something that was kind of getting in the way of their operational efficiency, of being able to automate and drive the network at scale on DSO. Our founders, you know, went through that whole sort of discovery process and things when when they were Apple on DH, you know, and the hyper scales drove the advent of this kind of white box disaggregated networking, separating the software operating system from the hardware and the reason behind that was really around game great gaining greater control because it's a legacy. Networking vendors were not delivering what was needed, and they needed to get more control on DSO. Are found us. You really saw the opportunity to say, Look, we think that there's a way of solving what an operator really needs and what an organization needs and one of the big challenges. There is howto networking operations. Teams collaborate with dev up stings because the devil teams are responsible for, you know, time to service for the application. And that's, you know, that's really the value of the organization. And so, you know, they set out to solve that problem to say, Well, hell, can we build a network operating system on what they realised was that you know what Deb Ops had done is embrace. It's a cloud. Native principles container ization, virtual ization, my crack services on DH. So what we've done is we've built from the ground up a newly architected network operating system that is a fully containerized micro services architecture that embeds coup Panetti's on DH allows the networking for this first time to be brought natively into the de bop store chain. Sonett ops teams can still sort of control and deploy the network and define policy and things. But now they don't have to worry about that is, you know, sort of annoying day today, tasks where, you know the Devil apps engineer is tryingto get an application on the network and, you know, they have to just do sort of some, you know, pretty trivial movies that changes things. And so, you know, in in doing that, what we also figured out was we could solve, you know, problems not just around the operational efficiencies and the time to service, but also a lot of security >> issues as well. So a lot of development going public with the product you mentioned. Cooper Netease, top of cloud. >> What are the >> big shifts in the industry that you guys air riding on because you have tail winds get cloud? Yeah, What is the way that you're on? Can you take a minute to explain some of the big shifts in the industry that's going, guys? >> Yeah, well, I I think there's several things. I think one of the biggest is that, you know, every single organization out there is looking nervously over its shoulder because we live in an age of very, very rapid disruption. It's kind of you know what call the Amazon affect. You know, those big, established companies who've been around for many, many years, who are being disrupted by, you know, Jason, you know, cos we're in adjacent spaces or new start ups coming in so everybody near realizes they need to use technology to their advantage, and they have to disrupt themselves Before, you know, they're they're disrupted. So? So that's one of the big drivers and And so time to service speed, efficiency are all sort of paramount. When you were in, you know, any C suite, you know, discussion, those air. Those are things that come up a ll the time from a technology perspective. We're seeing things, things changing significantly and how we use technology. And, you know, So everything is mobile. Ah, you know, we have the advent of I O t coming in, and so, you know, lots of services and moving to the edge. And so the data centers that were traditionally completely centralized and they'll sort of starting to distribute a little bit of well, eh? So you have this, you know, idea of sort of age data centers in H compute. So there's there's a lot of things, you know, changing and happening. And there's a lot of opportunity for us to deliver, you know, some strong value in this. >> So they obviously the cloud native trend you mentioned is big. That's driving the application market. De bobs you mentioned earlier huge we've seen years now in years of evidence of growth yet on dev ups. Okay, so now it's coming down into the network how? How our company's solving challenges for application developers that are in a devil's world because that seems to be the growth. And the sooner the pressure's coming from is that more requirements coming from the applications to the network. How are companies solving this problem? >> So, you know, So I think from the computer and storage side, things have moved along, you know, pretty, pretty, pretty swiftly eso, you know, as an application engineer. What? What you want is you want the infrastructure to service. You just You just want it to do what the application needs. Unfortunately, you know, traditionally, infrastructures has has been the other way around. You know, you deploy the infrastructure and you say, Okay, well, this is what the application could do within the constraints of the infrastructure and networking has, you know, just continued that idea. And so what you want to do is you want to take this idea of you we've talked before about infrastructure as code, you know. How do you make it? So is when an application engineer rights and application, he can actually regard the infrastructure as almost like a code library. And that's something that a lot of legacy vendors have talked about marketed to for some time. But the reality is-- >> It makes a lot of sense. >> Yeah, it does. It makes a ton of sense. But the reality is that all they could do was offer up some, you know, proprietary APIs and and programmatic interfaces. And the big challenge was the actual architecture of a network operating system was not designed in a way to actually enable that that infrastructure to react in the proper way by developing this containerized microservices architecture on by embedding communities and putting native DevOps tool chains you know inside the operating system. We actually can deliver on the promise of infrastructure as code. >> and this is what everyone wants. I gotta ask you, if everyone wants this and we hearing all around the Cuban all the events we go to clearly a requirement becoming table stakes. But what? What's been preventing people from doing this? >> Well, it's it's the architecture. I mean, if you look at, I call them Legacy Network architectures, but network architecture. Yeah, network operating system itself. The actual you know, the operating system that exists on the physical switch. That is where the problem starts, because that is designed as one big >> blob off >> coat. So all of the features Aaron there, they're all in the same place. They all sort of interact with each other, and it gives you reliability problems that give you innovation problems, because every time you change something, it has a knock on effect. If there's a bug and you have to fix that bug, you have to replace the entire blob. If you replace the entire blob, you have to down the switch or, you know, do some kind of complex patching. If there's a security vulnerability, you have to either differ like actually fixing their on DH, become non complaint or you have to down the switch. And you know we live in an age, As I said, where everything is on all the time, everything is mobile, you know, everybody wants their services right here right now. And the very you know, the very existence of a business depends on being able to deliver those applications all the time. So you can't bring network's down. So when when we've taken this micro services approach and we've containerized the actual infrastructure, you know, on the protocols and everything else, everything existed in its own container. Now, if there's a security vulnerability, we can replace just that container. If you're not using certain services on the operating system, you could kill those containers. And in the process, you reduce the threat surface off the the operating system in the switch. Where is in a legacy world with this monolithic blob, you can just you can turn off the features, but the code still there, the threat surfaces huge, and you're still vulnerable. So what's the >> solution to this and snap route? Fix this. What's the operational benefits? How do you guys play into fixing? The problems have been holding everyone back. >> Well, I think you know collaboration, I think is, you know, is one of the big benefits. You know, Quite frankly, I think there's, you know, there's there's been sort of tension in organizations. I think unfairly network operating operations teams have been, you know, treated as you know, holding things back or non responsive, whatever, anything that's completely unfair because actually, the problem is with the the vendor community. We haven't been delivering the tools that enable them to, you know, deliver the services they need. And so with you know, with our approach with this cloud native approach, we're actually able, sort of, you know, bring the net net tops world. You know, closer to Deb. Ops allow this Khun collaboration to happen on give you you know that the benefit ofthe I Abel sort of coordinated approach to delivering the application and the application is the value that the business delivers on. Biff, you know, if your application stops working, I mean, you know this in your personal life, right? You know, we use our phones and our devices. You try, use an application and it and it's not working. You're going to go and find a competitive. You're just going to go and say, Oh, well, you know, you saw download something else from the APP store on DH. So, you know, availability is a huge thing for businesses today on the network has been one of the most vulnerable pieces in terms of availability. Not because not necessarily because people are attacking it, but because it's so complex. And brittle that any time you change anything, things fall to pieces. And that's why people don't want to touch the network. And that is why we had the rise of the whole Sgn movement. The ESPN movement was on approach That said, we need to make the network more dynamic. And so, rather than addressing the actual operating system, put overlays over the top, create overlays and allow Deb ops teams to do what they need to do to deploy applications over the top of your fairly done plumbing. What we're saying is, look, we're going to simplify and claps. Thatyou don't need translation layers, and a PR is You don't need overlays. You don't need all of that stuff. We're now re architect in the operating system itself. So you, Khun Natively, address that and you know and directly, you know, control the policy that you need to deploy an application. >> Don, This is about modern infrastructure. It's what cloud is modernizing all parts of the value changing how people by consume, deploy, provide valued application known as you guys are part of that. How do people engage with snap route? So I say, Okay, this is the direction. I'm going. I'm going. I'm in cloud native and doing Cooper Netease. I got containing amusing microspheres betting my company's future on this direction. And a lot of people are. Yep. How doe I engage with you guys. And how do you fit into the equation? >> Right? So s so first of all, you know, initial engagement, you know, website linked in Facebook. You know, we're on all of those things. Weigh, You know, we're in customer trials right now. Invaders right now, you know, where was the launching the product? So you know where we'll be shipping off of your first commercial deployments. But as faras, you know how and where are the good? You know, the good opportunities to to deploy us on. Obviously, there are, you know, sort of new. Come, we're high growth companies who, you know, we're talking to who, you know, kind of wanna build off us as a base to start with. But if you already have ah, large investment in disorder deployed legacy equipment we can fit in quite nicely on. And we can still add a ton of value because one of the big problem areas, he's actually the top of rack, Switch the double racks, which is actually where Dev ops and Net ops come together. It's the first place where compute on the application touched the network on DH. This is where usually Annette, ops engineer, spends a lot of time doing, you know, fairly said of your trivial tasks to help applications, you get onto the network and you know, it's a big >> waste of conversion. You see, you think you're playing at the top Iraq switch, >> that is, that is a good place for for somebody to start to get a tremendous amount of value out of our product. You don't need to replace the entire network. You don't have to have us into end. You don't have to have us in the corps if you deploy us at the top of Rex, which so, you know, take a white box device. You know, deploy our operating system on top is very, very simple to do. The network engineer Khun very simply get that device up and running a little token. Figure itself. And then the Dev ops engineers can, you know, come in and say How would employ an application And I didn't need the network to do the following things, and the device will configure itself in that way. >> This is really two worlds coming together. Network operations and developer operations coming together. Yeah. How do you see that? Coming together and meshing together? Obviously, the top of Rex, which you mentioned? A key area where you get your kogel work. But as those cultural communities come together, you know, network operations and depth there, they're seeing benefits with each other. How are those worlds colliding? What's the benefit? What's it going to look like? And what's the opportunity? >> Yeah, well, I you know, I mean, first of all, I think that there's this misconception that these two over there, you know, these two types of organizations don't want to collaborate anything. That's a complete miss misconception. I mean, everybody wants to do the right thing they wanted, You know, their business is to grow ondas. I said earlier. I mean, I think the problem is that, you know, the vendor community is not delivered, as you know, a set of tools and products and capabilities that enable this collaboration. Andi, you know, that's what we're bringing to the table. But I do think you know that there's this This sort of, you know, this cross pollination, this this this ability to you don't have to learn each other's area of expertise. You don't suddenly have to become a networking expert. You know, the dead box engineer doesn't become a networking expert. Vice versa. But there is this, you know, there's there's this point of view, no collaboration and harmony that we can create where there was a lot of tension on DH, you know, and, you know, in fact, there was, you know, a lot of problems that way. Consider harmonize that and allow these organizations to just, you know, move forward with what really counts, which is growing the business. >> Tom, thanks for coming in. I appreciate your time. Original launch. Final question for you. Taking me displaying your background. Your previous roles in networking. We first met when you were at a PHP that he's being. Then why you attracted to snap Prada's as an opportunity on what's. >> Yeah, so, you know, I'm I've been in networking for over thirty years on and help me on DH. You know, network in security. Various roles, mostly in sort of product Rolls product management. You know, pride to snap her out. I was the general manager of the data center networking group HP on DH. You know, I got to do some, you know, fabulous things at HP. We have, you know, quite a ruber. And in other things there which have been hugely successful. So it was a lot of fun. But I came to the point with my career there, where I realized, you know, I I done, you know, many of the things that I wanted to do, and also, you know, most of the opportunities that were there in transforming and transitioning that company. And I wanted to get back to my start up roots on DH. You know, the, you know, long conversation. >> No data centers, these apple guys. >> Yeah, Andi, you know, And so I started talking Teo to snap Brown on, you know, they were asking my advice and things. And the one of the things that attracted me, as you say was it's a company built by operators for operators. You know, it's I, You know, I've never had the opportunity to be in a company founded by operators who just intrinsically know what the customer problem is on B because they've lived it. And And I think you really do have to live it to truly understand on DH. So, you know, that was a huge plus for me. I was really attracted, Teo, that Adam and Glenn, our founders, you know, really interesting great guys. But also there's this inflection point. There's this inflection point in the marking and market and everything to do with, you know, start ups and successful startups is not just having the right innovative technology, which I truly believe we do but having the right overthere innovative technology at the right time. And the timing here is perfect. I mean, child native, you know, Cuba netease, the movement behind Cuba. Netease is just a force unto itself. You know, Dev Ops is, you know, is really moving forward. There's a huge sort of groundswell within the networking team community to, you know, to modernize and to, you know, toe toe. Contribute more to the success of business s So we have a massive >> opportunity. And And the trend of programmable networks Infrastructure is code is happening now. He wanted rubber is hitting the road now? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know it's, you know, we'll go through the usual adoption curves of, you know, early adopters and mass market etcetera. And so, you know, there's a There's a journey ahead of us, but but yeah. No, I mean, you know, people are doing this right now. >> Well, congratulations on your launch net, right? We'll be watching you. Really innovative. Moving right to the core of the devices with an operating system. No abstraction. Layers with Cooper Netease. Interesting architecture. Looking forward to following it. Dominic Wild CEO Snapper out here inside the Cube studios and fellow Also, I'm John Ferrier. Thanks for watching.

[Narrator] From the heart of Silicon Valley, it's the Cube. Covering Cloud Now seventh annual Top Women Entrepreneurs in Cloud Innovation Awards. (techno music) >> Hi, Lisa Martin on the ground with the Cube at Facebook headquarters at the seventh annual Cloud Now Top Women in Cloud Innovation Awards. We are here for our third time with the founder of Cloud Now, Jocelyn Degance Graham. Jocelyn, it is great to have you back. Great to be back here for your seventh annual Cloud Now. >> We are just so delighted to be here with you Lisa and the Cube and all of the support and wonderful help that you've given us through the years for this event. >> So you have a lot of firsts that I wanted to cover and I know we've just got a few minutes of your time. Seventh annual, as I mentioned. >> Jocelyn: That's right. >> Your Cloud Now community now boasts over 1500 members. There's over 300 attendees here tonight. >> Jocelyn: That's right. >> And tell us what was really unique about how easy it was to attract this audience. >> Well this, we've never had such a great response for this event Lisa. And some of that could just be the timing. It is finally an idea who's time has come, right? And so there just seems to be such a groundswell of understanding the importance of inclusion and diversity. And beyond that actually creating belonging, right? So more and more, I feel like there's such an actual enthusiasm that we hadn't seen before. So this year, we didn't actually publish tickets or let people know that tickets were available. Everything was essentially sold through word of mouth. And so, we never even published any tickets. And we sold out of the event. And that was definitely a first for us. >> Another first is being here. >> Yeah. >> Not only being here at Facebook headquarters in Menlo Park California, but also having Sheryl Sandberg as one of the keynote speakers this evening. >> It is such an honor. You know she is one of the women who has just been so important in terms of the Seminole movement of women in tech. Like many women, I read her book, Lean In, years ago. And the fact that she's here with us tonight at the event, after having inspired an entire movement, is really significant and we're just thrilled. >> Another thing that's really interesting and a unique first for Cloud Now this year is you're recognizing 10 female tech entrepreneurs who are technical founders. >> Jocelyn: Technical founder, venture backed. >> Of venture backed businesses. >> Jocelyn: That's absolutely right. >> Tell us about how you've been able to achieve that because their backgrounds are diverse and the technologies that they're designing and driving are really incredible. >> This is one of the most, I think, exciting firsts about the event this year is in past events, we were recognizing women that had made major contributions in a technical field. And we were recognizing women regardless of the level or role or responsibility in the organization. Now we had largely done that because there were so few female founders of venture funded startups. This year was an absolute breakthrough year for many different reasons. There are organizations now like Allraise.org that are supported by women VC's. And there just seems to be an entire groundswell of female founders and we were able to, this year for the first time, align the criteria around female technical founders. And I'm really hoping that moving forward we'll be able to continue with that as more and more women realize that they should be starting businesses and they can get venture backing. >> And we're excited to talk to those winners tonight and ask how did you go about doing that? What were your inspirations and how do you kind of combat those fears and just the history of the challenge of getting funding there? Another thing that I noticed on the Cloud Now website is one of your taglines is together we can make a difference. In, you know, just the last minute or so give me some examples of how you're helping to make a difference that really resonate with you and that give you inspiration for your 2019 goals. >> That's such a great question. So for me, really one of the most heartening things about the organization is that the work we're doing together and through our scholarship program. So we're identifying the next generation of both female and minority leaders in tech and we're investing in them through our stem scholarship fund. This year, we have funders. Our funders include Google, Intel and Facebook. And we're really hoping to be able to expand that scope next year, Lisa, to increase the number of students we're helping. This year we're also, in addition to women, we are helping minority students as well. And for next year, we're wanting to expand those categories even further and being able to support people with disabilities. So we're really hoping that to create this kind of very strong fabric of the community coming together and really giving each other support. >> Jocelyn, thank you so much for having the Cube back for the third year in a row and congratulations on the groundswell that you're capitalizing on and that you're helping to create. We congratulate you and we appreciate your time. >> Lisa, it's always a pleasure. I love speaking with you. Thanks so much for coming. >> Likewise, we want to thank you for watching the Cube. Lisa Martin on the ground at Facebook headquarters at the Cloud Now Top Women Entrepreneurs in Cloud Innovation Awards. Thanks for watching. (techno music)

Okay, this presentation includes forward looking statements that are subject to risks and uncertainties. Actual results may differ materially as a result of various risk factors including those described in the 10 k's 10 q's and eight ks. Vm ware files with the SEC, ladies and gentlemen, Sunjay Buddha for the jazz mafia from Oakland, California. Good to be with you. Welcome to late night with Jimmy Fallon. I'm an early early morning with Sanjay Poonen and two are set. It's the first time we're doing a live band and jazz and blues is my favorite. You know, I prefer a career in music, playing with Eric Clapton and that abandoned software, but you know, life as a different way. I'll things. I'm delighted to have you all here. Wasn't yesterday's keynote. Just awesome. Off the charts. I mean pat and Ray, you just guys, I thought it was the best ever keynote and I'm not kissing up to the two of you. If you know pat, you can't kiss up to them because if you do, you'll get an action item list at 4:30 in the morning that sten long and you'll be having nails for breakfast with him but bad it was delightful and I was so inspired by your tattoo that I decided to Kinda fell asleep in batter ass tattoo parlor and I thought one wasn't enough so I was gonna one up with. I love Vm ware. Twenty years. Can you see that? What do you guys think? But thank you all of you for being here. It's a delight to have you folks at our conference. Twenty 5,000 of you here, 100,000 watching. Thank you to all of the vm ware employees who helped put this together. Robin Matlock, Linda, Brit, Clara. Can I have you guys stand up and just acknowledge those of you who are involved? Thank you for being involved. Linda. These ladies worked so hard to make this a great show. Everybody on their teams. It's the life to have you all here. I know that we're gonna have a fantastic time. The title of my talk is pioneers of the possible and we're going to go through over the course of the next 90 minutes or so, a conversation with customers, give you a little bit of perspective of why some of these folks are pioneers and then we're going to talk about somebody who's been a pioneer in the world but thought to start off with a story. I love stories and I was born in a family with four boys and my parents I grew up in India were immensely creative and naming that for boys. The eldest was named Sanjay. That's me. The next was named Santosh Sunday, so if you can get the drift here, it's s a n, s a n s a n and the final one. My parents got even more creative and colon suneel sun, so you could imagine my mother going south or Sunday do. I meant Sanjay you and it was always that confusion and then I come to the United States as an immigrant at age 18 and people see my name and most Americans hadn't seen many Sundays before, so they call me Sanjay. I mean, of course it of sounds like v San, so sanjay, so for all of your V, San Lovers. Then I come to California for years later work at apple and my Latino friends see my name and it sorta sounds like San Jose, so I get called sand. Hey, okay. Then I meet some Norwegian friends later on in my life, nordics. The J is a y, so I get called San Year. Your my Italian friend calls me son Joe. So the point of the matter is, whatever you call me, I respond, but there's certain things that are core to my DNA. Those that people know me know that whatever you call me, there's something that's core to me. Maybe I like music more than software. Maybe I want my tombstone to not be with. I was smart or stupid that I had a big heart. It's the same with vm ware. When you think about the engines that fuel us, you can call us the VM company. The virtualization company. Server virtualization. We seek to be now called the digital foundation company. Sometimes our competitors are not so kind to us. They call us the other things. That's okay. There's something that's core to this company that really, really stands out. They're sort of the engines that fuel vm ware, so like a plane with two engines, innovation and customer obsession. Innovation is what allows the engine to go faster, farther and constantly look at ways in which you can actually make the better and better customer obsession allows you to do it in concert with customers and my message to all of you here is that we want to both of those together with you. Imagine if 500,000 customers could see the benefit of vsphere San Nsx all above cloud foundation being your products. We've been very fortunate and blessed to innovate in everything starting with Sova virtualization, starting with software defined storage in 2009. We were a little later to kind of really on the hyperconverged infrastructure, but the first things that we innovate in storage, we're way back in 2009 when we acquired nicer and began the early works in software defined networking in 2012 when we put together desktop virtualization, mobile and identity the first time to form the digital workspace and as you heard in the last few days, the vision of a multi cloud or hybrid cloud in a virtual cloud networking. This is an amazing vision couple that innovation with an obsession and customer obsession and an NPS. Every engineer and sales rep and everybody in between is compensated on NPS. If something is not going well, you can send me an email. I know you can send pat an email. You can send the good emails to me and the bad emails to Scott Dot Beto said Bmr.com. No, I'm kidding. We want all of you to feel like you're plugged into us and we're very fortunate. This is your vote on nps. We've been very blessed to have the highest nps and that is our focus, but innovation done with customers. I shared this chart last year and it's sort of our sesame street simple chart. I tell our sales rep, this is probably the one shot that gets used the most by our sales organization. If you can't describe our story in one shot, you have 100 powerpoints, you probably have no power and very The fact of the matter is that the data center is sort of like a human body. little point. You've got your heart that's Compute, you've got the storage, maybe your lungs, you've got the nervous system that's networking and you've got the brains of management and what we're trying to do is help you make that journey to the cloud. That's the bottom part of the story. We call it the cloud foundation, the top part, and it's all serving apps. The top part of that story is the digital workspace, so very simply put that that's the desktop, moving edge and mobile. The digital workspace meets the cloud foundation. The combination is a digital foundation Where does, and we've begun this revolution with a company. That's what we end. focus on impact, not just make an impression making an impact, and there's three c's that all of us collectively have had an impact on cost very clearly. I'm going to walk you through some of that complexity and carbon and the carbon data was just fascinating to see some of that yesterday, uh, from Pat, these fierce guarded off this revolution when we started this off 20 years ago. These were stories I just picked up some of the period people would send us electricity bills of what it looked like before and after vsphere with a dramatic reduction in cost, uh, off the tune of 80 plus percent people would show us 10, sometimes 20 times a value creation from server consolidation ratios. I think of the story goes right. Intel initially sort of fought vm ware. I didn't want to have it happen. Dell was one of the first investors. Pat Michael, do I have that story? Right? Good. It's always a job fulfilling through agree with my boss and my chairman as opposed to disagree with them. Um, so that's how it got started. And true with over the, this has been an incredible story. This is kind of the revenue that you've helped us with over the 20 years of existence. Last year was about a billion but I pulled up one of the Roi Charts that somebody wrote in 2006. collectively over a year, $50 million, It might've been my esteemed colleague, Greg rug around that showed that every dollar spent on vm ware resulted in nine to $26 worth of economic value. This was in 2006. So I just said, let's say it's about 10 x of economic value, um, to you. And I think over the years it may have been bigger, but let's say conservative. It's then that $50 million has resulted in half a trillion worth of value to you if you were willing to be more generous and 20. It's 1 trillion worth of value over the that was the heart. years. Our second core product, This is one of my favorite products. How can you not like a product that has part of your name and it. We sent incredible. But the Roi here is incredible too. It's mostly coming from cap ex and op ex reduction, but mostly cap x. initially there was a little bit of tension between us and the hardware storage players. Now I think every hardware storage layer begins their presentation on hyperconverged infrastructure as the pathway to the private cloud. Dramatic reduction. We would like this 15,000 customers have we send. We want every one of the 500,000 customers. If you're going to invest in a private cloud to begin your journey with, with a a hyperconverged infrastructure v sound and sometimes we don't always get this right. This store products actually sort of the story of the of the movie seabiscuit where we sort of came from behind and vm ware sometimes does well. We've come from behind and now we're number one in this category. Incredible Roi. NSX, little not so obvious because there's a fair amount spent on hardware and the trucks would. It looks like this mostly, and this is on the lefthand side, a opex mostly driven by a little bit of server virtualization and a network driven architecture. What we're doing is not coming here saying you need to rip out your existing hardware, whether it's Cisco, juniper, Arista, you get more value out of that or more value potentially out of your Palo Alto or load balancing capabilities, but what we're saying is you can extend the life, optimize your underlay and invest more in your overlay and we're going to start doing more and software all the way from the l for the elephant seven stack firewalling application controllers and make that in networking stack, application aware, and we can dramatically help you reduce that. At the core of that is an investment hyperconverged infrastructure. We find often investments like v San could trigger the investments. In nsx we have roi tools that will help you make that even more dramatic, so once you've got compute storage and networking, you put it together. Then with a lot of other components, we're just getting started in this journey with Nsx, one of our top priorities, but you put that now with the brain. Okay, you got the heart, the lungs, the nervous system, and the brain where you do three a's, sort of like those three c's. You've got automation, you've got analytics and monitoring and of course the part that you saw yesterday, ai and all of the incredible capabilities that you have here. When you put that now in a place where you've got the full SDDC stack, you have a variety of deployment options. Number one is deploying it. A traditional hardware driven type of on premise environment. Okay, and here's the cost we we we accumulate over 2,500 pms. All you could deploy this in a private cloud with a software defined data center with the components I've talked about and the additional cost also for cloud bursting Dr because you're usually investing that sometimes your own data centers or you have the choice of now building an redoing some of those apps for public cloud this, but in many cases you're going to have to add on a cost for migration and refactoring those apps. So it is technically a little more expensive when you factor in that cost on any of the hyperscalers. We think the most economically attractive is this hybrid cloud option, like Vm ware cloud and where you have, for example, all of that Dr Capabilities built into it so that in essence folks is the core of that story. And what I've tried to show you over the last few minutes is the economic value can be extremely compelling. We think at least 10 to 20 x in terms of how we can generate value with them. So rather than me speak more than words, I'd like to welcome my first panel. Please join me in welcoming on stage. Are Our guests from brinks from sky and from National Commercial Bank of Jamaica. Gentlemen, join me on stage. Well, gentlemen, we've got a Indian American. We've got a kiwi who now lives in the UK and we've got a Jamaican. Maybe we should talk about cricket, which by the way is a very exciting sport. It lasts only five days, but nonetheless, I want to start with you Rohan. You, um, brings is an incredible story. Everyone knows the armored trucks and security. Have you driven in one of those? Have a great story and the stock price has doubled. You're a cio that brings business and it together. Maybe we can start there. How have you effectively being able to do that in bridging business and it. Thank you Sanjay. So let me start by describing who is the business, right? Who is brinks? Brinks is the number one secure logistics and cash management services company in the world. Our job is to protect our customers, most precious assets, their cash, precious metals, diamonds, jewelry, commodities and so on. You've seen our trucks in your neighborhoods, in your cities, even in countries across the world, right? But the world is going digital and so we have to ratchet up our use of digital technologies and tools in order to continue to serve our customers in a digital world. So we're building a digital network that extends all the way out to the edges and our edges. Our branches are our messengers and their handheld devices, our trucks and even our computer control safes that we place on our customer's premises all the way back to our monitoring centers are processing centers in our data centers so that we can receive events that are taking place in that cash ecosystem around our customers and react and be proactive in our service of them and at the heart of this digital business transformation is the vm ware product suite. We have been able to use the products to successfully architect of hybrid cloud data center in North America. Awesome. I'd like to get to your next, but before I do that, you made a tremendous sacrifice to be here because you just had a two month old baby. How is your sleep getting there? I've been there with twins and we have a nice little gift for you for you here. Why don't you open it and show everybody some side that something. I think your two month old will like once you get to the bottom of all that day. I've. I'm sure something's in there. Oh Geez. That's the better one. Open it up. There's a Vm, wear a little outfit for your two month. Alright guys, this is great. Thank you all. We appreciate your being here and making the sacrifice in the midst of that. But I was amazed listening to you. I mean, we think of Jamaica, it's a vacation spot. It's also an incredible place with athletes and Usain bolt, but when you, the not just the biggest bank in Jamaica, but also one of the innovators and picking areas like containers and so on. How did you build an innovation culture in the bank? Well, I think, uh, to what rughead said the world is going to dissolve and NCB. We have an aspiration to become the Caribbean's first digital bank. And what that meant for us is two things. One is to reinvent or core business processes and to, to ensure that our customers, when they interact with the bank across all channels have a, what we call the Amazon experience and to drive that, what we actually had to do was to work in two moons. Uh, the first movement we call mode one is And no two, which is stunning up a whole set of to keep the lights on, keep the bank running. agile labs to ensure that we could innovate and transform and grow our business. And the heart of that was on the [inaudible] platform. So pks rocks. You guys should try it. We're going to talk about. I'm sure that won't be the last hear from chatting, but uh, that's great. Hey, now I'd like to get a little deeper into the product with all of you folks and just understand how you've engineered that, that transformation. Maybe in sort of the order we covered in my earlier comments in speech. Rohan, you basically began the journey with the private cloud optimization going with, of course vsphere v San and the VX rail environment to optimize your private cloud. And then of course we'll get to the public cloud later. But how did that work out for you and why did you pick v San and how's it gone? So Sunday we started down this journey, the fourth quarter of 2016. And if you remember back then the BMC product was not yet a product, but we still had the vision even back then of bridging from a private data center into a public cloud. So we started with v San because it helped us tackle an important component of our data center stack. Right. And we could get on a common platform, common set of processes and tools so that when we were ready for the full stack, vmc would be there and it was, and then we could extend past that. So. Awesome. And, and I say Dave with a name like Dave Matthews, you must have like all these musicians, like think you're the real date, my out back. What's your favorite Dave Matthew's song or it has to be crashed into me. Right. Good choice rash. But we'll get to music another time. What? NSX was obviously a big transformational capability, February when everyone knows what sky and media and wireless and all of that stuff. Networking is at the core of what you do. Why did you pick Nsx and what have you been able to achieve with it? So I mean, um, yeah, I mean there's, like I say, sky's yeah, maybe your organization. It's incredibly fast moving industry. It's very innovative. We've got a really clever people in, in, in, in house and we need to make sure our product guys and our developers can move at pace and yeah, we've got some great. We've got really good quality metric guys. They're great guys. But the problem is that traditional networking is just fundamentally slow is there's, there's not much you can do about it, you know, and you know to these agile teams here to punch a ticket, get a file, James. Yeah. That's just not reality. We're able to turn that round so that the, the, the devops ops and developers, they can just use terraform and do everything. Yeah, it's, yeah, we rigs for days to seconds and that's in the Aes to seconds with an agile software driven approach and giving them much longer because it would have been hardware driven. Absolutely. And giving the tool set to the do within boundaries. You have scenes with boundaries, developers so they can basically just do, they can do it all themselves. So you empower the developers in a very, very important way. Within a second you had, did you use our insight tools too on top of that? So yes, we're considered slightly different use case. I mean, we're, yeah, we're in the year. You've got general data protection regulations come through and that's, that's, that's a big deal. And uh, and the reality is from what an organization's compliance isn't getting right? So what we've done been able to do is any convenience isn't getting any any less, using vr and ai and Nsx, we're able to essentially micro segment off a lot of Erica our environments which have a lot, much higher compliance rate and you've got in your case, you know, plenty of stores that you're managing with visa and tens of thousands of Vms to annex. This is something at scale that both of you have been able to achieve about NSX and vsn. Pretty incredible. And what I also like with the sky story is it's very centered around Dev ops and the Dev ops use case. Okay, let's come to your Ramon. And obviously I was, when I was talking to the Coobernetti's, uh, you know, our Kubernetes Platform, team pks, and they told me one of the pioneer and customers was National Commercial Bank of Jamaica. I was like, wow, that's awesome. Let's bring you in. And when we heard your story, it's incredible. Why did you pick Coobernetti's as the container platform? You have many choices of what you could have done in terms of companies that are other choices. Why did you pick pks? So I think, well, what happened to, in our interviews cases, we first looked at pcf, which we thought was a very good platform as well. Then we looked at the integration you can get with pqrs, the security, the overland of Nsx, and it made sense for us to go in that direction because you offered 11 team or flexibility on our automation that we could drive through to drive the business. So that was the essence of the argument that we had to make. So the key part with the NSX integration and security and, and the PKS. Uh, and while we've got a few more chairs from the heckler there, I want you to know, Chad, I've got my pks socks on. That's how much I had so much fear. And if he creates too much trouble with security, we can be emotional. I'm out of the arena, you know. Anyway. Um, I wanted to put this chart up because it's very important for all of you, um, and the audience to know that vm ware is making a significant commitment to Coobernetti's. Uh, we feel that this is, as pat talked about it before, something that's going to be integrated into everything we do. It's going to become like a dial tone. Um, and this is just the first of many things you're going to see a vm or really take this now as a consistent thing. And I think we have an opportunity collectively because a lot of people think, oh, you know, containers are a threat to vm ware. We actually think it's a headwind that's going to become a tailwind for us. Just the same way public cloud has been. So thank you for being one of our pioneer and early customers. And Are you using the kubernetes platform in the context of running in a vsphere environment? Yes, we are. We're onto Venice right now. Uh, we have. Our first application will be a mobile banking APP which will be launched in September and all our agile labs are going to be on pbs moving forward medic. So it's really a good move for us. Dave, I know that you've, not yet, I mean you're looking in the context potentially about is your, one of the use cases of Nsx for you containers and how do you view Nsx in that? Absolutely. For us that was the big thing about t when it refresh rocked up is that the um, you know, not just, you know, Sda and on a, on vsphere, but sdn on openstack sdn into their container platform and we've got some early visibility of the, uh, of the career communities integration on there and yeah, it was, it was done right from the start and that's why when we talked to the pks Yeah, it's, guys again, the same sort of thing. it's, it's done right from the start. And so yeah, certainly for us, the, the NSX, everywhere as they come and control plane as a very attractive proposition. Good. Ron, I'd like to talk to you a little bit about how you viewed the public, because you mentioned when we started off this journey, we didn't have Mr. Cloud and aws, we approached to when we were very early on in that journey and you took a bet with us, but it was part of your data center reduction. You're kind of trying to almost to obliterate one data center as you went from three to one. Tell us that story and how the collaboration worked out on we amber cloud. What's the use case? So as I said, our vision was always to bridge to a So we wanted to be able to use public cloud environments to incubate new public cloud, right? applications until they stabilize to flex to the cloud. And ultimately disaster recovery in the cloud. That was the big use case for us. We ran a traditional data center environment where, you know, we run across four regions in the world. Each region had two to three data centers. One was the primary and then usually you had a disaster recovery center where you had all your data hosted, you had certain amount of compute, but it was essentially a cold center, right? It, it sat idle, you did your test once a year. That's the environment we were really looking to get out of. Once vmc was available, we were able to create the same vm ware environment that we currently have on prem in the cloud, right? The same network and security stack in both places and we were actually able to then decommission our disaster recovery data center, took it off, it's took it off and we move. We've got our, our, all of our mission critical data now in the, uh, in the, uh, aws instance using BMC. We have a small amount of compute to keep it warm, but thanks to the vm ware products, we have the ability now to ratchet that up very quickly in a Dr situation, run production in the cloud until we stabilized and then bring that workload back. Would it be fair to tell everybody here, if you are looking at a Dr or that type of bursting scenario, there's no reason to invest in a on premise private cloud. That's really a perfect use case of We, I know certainly we had breaks. this, right? Sorry. Exactly. Yeah. We will no longer have a, uh, a physical Dr a center available anywhere. So you've optimized your one data center with the private cloud stack will be in cloud foundation effectively starting off a decent and you've optimized your hybrid cloud journey, uh, with we cloud. I know we're early on in the journey with Nsx and branch, so we'll come back to that conversation may next year we discover new things about this guy I just found out last night that he grew up in the same town as me in Bangalore and went to the same school. So we will keep a diary of the schools at rival schools, but the last few years with the same school, uh, Dave, as you think about the future of where you want to this use case of network security, what are some of the things that are on your radar over the course of the next couple of months and quarters? So I think what we're really trying to do is, um, you know, computers, this is a critical thing decided technology conference, computers and networks are a bit boring, but rather we want to make them boring. We want to basically sweep them away from so that our people, our customers, our internal customers don't have to think about it were the end that we can make him, that, that compliance, that security, that whole, that whole framework around it. Um, regardless of where that work, right live as living on premise, off premise, everywhere you know. And, and even Aisha potentially out out to the edge. How big were your teams? Very quickly, as we wrap up this, how big are the teams that you have working on network is what was amazing. I talked to you was how nimble and agile you're with lean teams. How big was your team? The, the team during the, uh, the SDDC stack is six people. Six, six. Eight. Wow. There's obviously more that more. And we're working on that core data center and your boat to sleep between five and seven people. For it to brad to both for the infrastructure and containers. Yes. Rolling on your side. It's about the same. Amazing. Well, very quickly maybe 30 seconds. Where do you see the world going? Rolling. So, you know, it brings, I pay attention to two things. One is Iot and we've talked a little bit about that, but what I'm looking for there as digital signals continue to grow is injecting things like machine learning and artificial intelligence in line into that flow back so we can make more decisions closer to the source. Right. And the second thing is about cash. So even though cash volume is increasing, I mean here we are in Vegas, the number one cash city in the US. I can't ignore the digital payments and crypto currency and that relies on blockchain. So focusing on what role does blockchain play in the global world as we go forward and how can brings, continue to bring those services, blockchain and Iot. Very rare book. Well gentlemen, thank you for being with us. It's a pleasure and an honor. Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for three guests. Well, um, thank you very much. So as you saw there, it's great to be able to see and learn from some of these pioneering customers and the hopefully the lesson you took away was wherever your journey is, you could start potentially with the private cloud, embark on the journey to the public cloud and then now comes the next part which is pretty exciting, which is the journey off the desktop and removal what digital workspace. And that's the second part of this that I want to explore with a couple of customers, but before I do that, I wanted to set the context of why. What we're trying to do here also has economic value. Hopefully you saw in the first set of charts the economic value of starting with the heart, the lungs, any of that software defined data center and moving to the ultimate hybrid cloud had economic value. We feel the same thing here and it's because of fundamental shift that started off in the last seven, 10 years since iphone. The fact of the matter is when you look at your fleet of your devices across tablets, phones and laptops today is a heterogeneous world. Twenty years ago when the company started, it was probably all Microsoft devices, laptops now phones, tablets. It's a mixture and it was going to be a mixture for the rest of them. I think for the foreseeable time, with very strong, almost trillion market cap companies and in this world, our job is to ensure that heterogeneous digital workspace can be very easily managed and secured. I have a little soft corner for this business because the first three years of my five years here, I ran this business, so I know a thing about these products, but the fact of the matter is that I think the opportunity here is if you think about the 7 billion people in the world, a billion of them are working for some company or the other. The others are children or may not be employed or retired and every one of them have a phone today. Many of them phones and laptops and they're mixed and our job is to ensure that we bring simplicity to this place. You saw a little bit that cacophony yesterday and Pat's chart, and unfortunately a lot of today's world of managing and securing that disparate is a mountain of morass. Okay? No offense to any of the vendors named in there, but it shouldn't be your job to be that light piece of labor at the top of the mountain to put it all together, which costs you potentially at least $50 per user per month. We can make the significantly cheaper with a unified platform, workspace one that has all of those elements, so how have we done that? We've taken those fundamental principles at 70 percent, at least reduction of simplicity and security. A lot of the enterprise companies get security, right, but we don't get simplicity all always right. Many of the consumer companies like right? But maybe it needs some help and facebook, it's simplicity, security and we've taken both of those and said it is possible for you to actually like your user experience as opposed to having to really dread your user experience in being able to get access to applications and how we did this at vm ware, was he. We actually teamed with the Stanford Design School. We put many of our product managers through this concept of design thinking. It's a really, really useful concept. I'd encourage every one of you. I'm not making a plug for the Stanford design school at all, but some very basic principles of viability, desirability, feasibility that allow your product folks to think like a consumer, and that's the key goal in undoing that. We were able to design of these products with the type of simplicity but not compromise at all. Insecurity, tremendous opportunity ahead of us and it gives me great pleasure to bring onstage now to guests that are doing some pioneering work, one from a partner and run from a customer. Please join me in welcoming Maria par day from dxc and John Market from adobe. Thank you, Maria. Thank you Maria and John for being with us. Maria, I want to start with you. A DXC is the coming together of two companies and CSC and HP services and on the surface on the surface of it, I think it was $50,000, 100,000. If it was exact numbers, most skeptics may have said such a big acquisition is probably going to fail, but you're looking now at the end of that sort of post merger and most people would say it's been a success. What's made the dxc coming together of those two very different cultures of success? Well, first of all, you have to credit a lot of very creative people in the space. One of the two companies came together, but mostly it is our customers who are making us successful. We are choosing to take our customers the next generation digital platform. The message is resonating, the cultures have come together, the individuals have come together, the offers have come together and it's resonating in the marketplace, in the market and with our customers and with our partners. So you shouldn't have doubted it. I, I wasn't one of the skeptics, maybe others were. And my understanding is the d and the C Yes. If, and dxc is the digital and customer. if you look at the logo, it's, it's more of an infinity, so digital transformation for customers. But truthfully it's um, we wanted to have a new start to some very powerful companies in the industry and it really was a instead of CSC and HP, a new logo and a new start. And I think, you know, if this resonates very well with what I started off my keynote, which is talking about innovation and customers focused on digital and Adobe, obviously not just a household name, customers, John, many of folks who use your products, but also you folks have written the playbook on a transformation of on premise going cloud, right? A SAS products and now we've got an incredible valuations relative. How has that affected the way you think in it in terms of a cloud first type of philosophy? Uh, too much of how you implement, right? From an IT perspective, we're really focused on the employee experience. And so as we transitioned our products to the cloud, that's where we're working towards as well from an it, it's all about innovation and fostering that ability for employees to create and do some amazing products. So many of those things I talked about like design thinking, uh, right down the playbook, what adobe does every day and does it affect the way in which you build, sorry, deploy products 92. Yeah, I mean fundamentally it comes down to those basics viability and the employee experience. And we've believe that by giving employees choice, we're enabling them to do amazing work. Rhonda, Maria, you obviously you were in the process of rolling out some our technology inside dxc. So I want to focus less on the internal implementation as much as what you see from other clients I shared sort of that mountain of harassed so much different disparate tools. Is that what you hear from clients and how are you messaging to them, what you think the future of the digital workspaces. And I joined partnership. Well Sanjay, your picture was perfect because if you look at the way end user compute infrastructure had worked for years, decades in the past, exactly what we're doing with vm ware in terms of automation and driving that infrastructure to the cloud in many ways. Um, companies like yours and mine having the courage to say the old way of on prem is the way we made our license fees, the way move made our professional services in the past. And now we have to quickly take our customers to a new way of working, a fast paced digital cloud transformation. We see it in every customer that we're dealing with everyday of the week What are some of the keyboard? Every vertical. I mean we're, we're seeing a lot in the healthcare and in a variety of verticals. industry. I'm one of the compelling things that we're seeing in the marketplace right now is the next gen worker in terms of the GIG economy. I'm employees might work for one company at 10:00 in the morning and another company at We have to be able to stand those employees are 10 99 employees up very 2:00 in the afternoon. quickly, contract workers from around the world and do it securely with governance, risk and compliance quickly. Uh, and we see that driving a lot of the next generation infrastructure needs. So the users are going from a company like dxc with 160,000 employees to what we think in the future will be another 200, 300,000 of 'em, uh, partners and contract workers that we still have to treat with the same security sensitivity and governance of our w two employees. Awesome. John, you were one of the pioneer and customers that we worked with on this notion of unified endpoint management because you were sort of a similar employee base to Vm ware, 20,000 odd employees, 1000 plus a and you've got a mixture of devices in your fleet. Maybe you can give us a little bit of a sense. What percentage do you have a windows and Mac? So depending on the geography is we're approximately 50 percent windows 50 slash 50 windows and somewhat similar to how vm ware operates. What is your fleet of mobile phones look like in terms of primarily ios? We have maybe 80 slash 20 or 70 slash 20 a apple and Ios? Yes. Tablets override kinds. It's primarily ios tablets. So you probably have something in the order of, I'm guessing adding that up. Forty or 50,000 devices, some total of laptops, tablets, phones. Absolutely split 60 slash 60,000. Sixty thousand plus. Okay. And a mixture of those. So heterogeneities that gear. Um, and you had point tools for many of those in terms of managing secure in that. Why did you decide to go with workspace one to simplify that, that management security experience? Well, you nailed it. It's all about simplification and so we wanted to take our tools and provide a consistent experience from an it perspective, how we manage those endpoints, but also for our employee population for them to be able to have a consistent experience across all of their devices. In the past it was very disconnected. It was if you had an ios device, the experience might look like this if you had a window is it would look like go down about a year ago is to bring that together again, this. And so our journey that we've started to simplicity. We want to get to a place where an employee can self provision their desktop just like they do their mobile device today. And what would, what's your expectations that you go down that journey of how quickly the onboarding time should, should be for an employee? It should be within 15, 20 minutes. We need to, we need to get it very rapid. The new hire orientation process needs to really be modified. It's no longer acceptable from everything from the it side ever to just the other recruiting aspects. An employee wants to come and start immediately. They want to be productive, they want to make contributions, and so what we want to do from an it perspective is get it out of the way and enable employees to be productive as And the onboarding then could be one way you latch him on and they get workspace quickly as possible. one. Absolutely. Great. Um, let's talk a little bit as we wrap up in the next few minutes, or where do you see the world going in terms of other areas that are synergistic, that workspace one collaboration. Um, you know, what are some of the things that you hear from clients? What's the future of collaboration? We're actually looking towards a future where we're less dependent on email. So say yes to that real real time collaboration. DXC is doing a lot with skype for business, a yammer. I'll still a lot with citrix, um, our tech teams and our development teams use slack and our clients are using everything, so as an integrator to this space, we see less dependent on the asynchronous world and a lot more dependence on the synchronous world and whatever tools that you can have to create real time. Um, collaboration. Now you and I spoke a little last night talking about what does that mean to life work balance when there's always a demanding realtime collaboration, but we're seeing an uptick in that and hopefully over the next few years a slight downtick in, in emails because that is not necessarily the most direct way to communicate all the time. And, and in that process, some of that sort of legacy environment starts to get replaced with newer tools, whether it's slack or zoom or we're in a similar experience. All of the above. All of the above. Are you finding the same thing, John Environment? Yeah, we're moving away. There's, I think what you're going to see transition is email becomes more of the reporting aspect, the notification, but the day to day collaboration is me to products like slack are teams at Adobe. We're very video focused and so even though we may be a very global team around the world, we will typically communicate over some form of video, whether it be blue jeans or Jabber or Blue Jeans for your collaboration. Yeah. whatnot. We've internally, we use Webex and, and um, um, and, and zoom in and also a lot of slack and we're happy to announce, I think at the work breakouts, we'll hear about the integration of workspace one with slack. We're doing a lot with them where I want to end with a final question with you. Obviously you're very passionate about a cause that we also love and I'm passionate about and we're gonna hear more about from Malala, which is more women in technology, diversity and inclusion and you know, especially there's a step and you are obviously a role model in doing that. What would you say to some of the women here and others who might be mentors to women in technology of how they can shape that career? Um, I think probably the women here are already rocking it and doing what you need to do. So mentoring has been a huge part of my career in terms of people mentoring me and if not for the support and I'm real acceptance of the differences that I brought to the workplace. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be sitting here today. So I think I might have more advice for the men than the women in the room. You're all, you have daughters, you have sisters, you have mothers and you have women that you work every day. Um, whether you know it or not, there is an unconscious bias out there. So when you hear things from your sons or from your daughters, she's loud. She's a little odd. She's unique. How about saying how wonderful is that? Let's celebrate that and it's from the little go to the top. So that would be, that would be my advice. I fully endorse that. I fully endorse that all of us men need to hear that we have put everyone at Vm ware through unconscious bias that it's not enough. We've got to keep doing it because it's something that we've got to see. I want my daughter to be in a place where the tech world looks like society, which is not 25, 30 percent. Well no more like 50 percent. Thank you for being a role model and thank you for both of you for being here at our conference. It's my pleasure. Thank you Thank you very much. Maria. Maria and John. So you heard you heard some of that and so that remember some of these things that I shared with you. I've got a couple of shirts here with these wonderful little chart in here and I'm not gonna. Throw it to the vm ware crowd. Raise your hand if you're a customer. Okay, good. Let's see how good my arm is. There we go. There's a couple more here and hopefully this will give you a sense of what we are trying to get done in the hybrid cloud. Let's see. That goes there and make sure it doesn't hit anybody. Anybody here in the middle? Right? There we go. Boom. I got two more. Anybody here? I decided not to bring an air gun in. That one felt flat. Sorry. All. There we go. One more. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, but this is what we're trying to get that diagram once again is the cloud foundation. Folks. The bottom part, done. Very simply. Okay. I'd love a world one day where the only The top part of the diagram is the digital workspace. thing you heard from Ben, where's the cloud foundation? The digital workspace makes them cloud foundation equals a digital foundation company. That's what we're trying to get done. This ties absolutely a synchronously what you heard from pat because everything starts with that. Any APP, a kind of perspective of things and then below it are these four types of clouds, the hybrid cloud, the Telco Cloud, the cloud and the public cloud, and of course on top of it is device. I hope that this not just inspired you in terms of picking up a few, the nuggets from our pioneers. The possible, but every one of the 25,000 view possible, the 100,000 of you who are watching this will take people will meet at all the vm world and before forums. the show on the road and there'll be probably 100,000 We want every one of you to be a pioneer. It is absolutely possible for that to happen because that pioneering a capability starts with every one of you. Can we give a hand once again for the five customers that were onstage with us? That's great.

hello everyone I'm Jean Faria we are reporting on the ground near Puerto Rico for blockchain unbound exclusive conversations at coinage end of covering all the action restart week of ten of events cryptocurrency blockchain all the people are here with the local ecosystem the cube is here it's great to have you on thanks for joining blockchain innovation is today global this is a revolution way bigger than the Internet itself programmable money programmable contracts that wipes out finance it wipes out legal it wipes out governance in many ways there's no central authority you have access to open source software it's fully connected so now is the time to make it translate we've all heard about the steam digital transformation its businesses that if they don't evolve and adopt blockchain AI all these other things they have a threat of being put out of business it is extremely competitive a new set of stakeholders investors global players governments are it's happening now you have a chance to be a part of an economy without a permission of a centralized organization have to pay 200 people in 40 countries and it's an unholy mess with withholding taxes and concerns around money transfer costs a hassle it's a nightmare like all currency control so you're only allowed to move a certain amount of capital out the country legally so what happens in all your backups our currency and you can effectively invest in assets around the world this is making it much easier to contribute to help people to get healthy and you don't have to go to school there's a very big influx of young and talented minds at that right and this is really changing the revolution landscape you've got the radical Burning Man hippie guy all the way to a three-piece suit yeah and that diversity is very very rich a lot of people are scared I like whoa hold on slow down we're not gonna prove it the other half saying no this is the future so you have two competing forces colliding for some reason crypto really pokes at people's biases you know why does it have any value and I go well why does the United States dollar have any value I mean you've got Full Faith and Credit of the government that's in debt by 20 trillion dollars you know is that a good idea most people that come here sorry with the what the how and people are scared but the young people are like yo this is happening this is not a moment this is a movement is definitely oh say 1996-97 of the internet bubble it's just starting people know there's something really magical they don't quite know what you know America really grew because you're abused to have all the controls and so the capital by sea left Europe and away in America and now it's happening 300 years later as America has all the controls and the capital starting to go away so a new Liberation's happening incredible resources are now being poured in problems that were ignored for many many and what is beautiful is that block Candy's doing it open-source is accelerating the tech these ideas are being freely shared whereas before there's bottlenecks in the collaboration aspect if we're able to write a contract in a thousand people be able to verify that contract and we're able to transfer money from one person to another without the two parties being involved we've got a perfect scenario security and speed and fairness all at the same time you can create these chains of trust and that can happen anywhere in the world you're on a level playing field if you have 4G connectivity now you can compete globally and be a part of the global economy so if you're someone who's in the emerging developing world and you want to begin to build wealth and you'd like to own a piece of first world real estate and today the minimum is about a thousand dollars but by implementing the Plott chain further they won't eventually get down to one dollar you can buy a piece of real estate and enjoy the returns on that I want to solve the wealth gap and I truly believe we can do it when we can allow anyone anywhere to invest in good quality assets a conduit with the current system there's too many friction costs the killer app right is money it's paying people that is the killer app of the block type right now let's say that money is software and it is software so if you buy something with a credit card what do you think's happening it's all software and what has happened is open-source software has always eventually won with respect to close source software so proprietary money is probably back on its heels because open-source money's coming in something like that will give liquidity to a lot of small business owners America is a country of small business owners across the globe it supports small business owners it's an interesting model yeah you don't have to give up any equity you don't have to give up any poor seats yeah right it's much leaner my super if you're an investor you gotta get a pound of flesh somewhere is it's just getting it on the discounted tokens is there a little liquidity going on when you think about you know private sale presale is 99% a token deal right although equities coming in because a lot of more venture capital is coming in and they're demanding a piece of the action from a company and equity perspective its equity might be future revenue sometimes as dividends or the opportunity get dividends so it's a combination of you have a preference you care you know at the other day equity is I was always preferable there is a provision in the 1934 Securities Act called section 12 G it allows us Spacely to go public by telling the SEC we're doing it without having to delay it to wait for their permission after 60 days it's a derivative so we'll continue to clear comments but but the thing is with tokens who knows how long that'll take I mean is the SEC gonna Shepherd something through with crypto 1 or do they gonna make it take 5 years I don't know [Music] all over the island this is the new Oliver field the world is moving too fast today for a big country to keep up it's all gonna happen now in this next century at the city level and so we work a lot with four smaller countries or small countries because I know estonia armenia baja rains got you know dubai envy so i mean every country wants to be the crypto country multiple small countries are going to come into the space which they know now they can get the capital flowing into that company and they're gonna allow their rules to be lacs they're gonna let capital flow through and then us will have to change or maybe UK will have to change orders against us will have to change in the first world a lot of what we're talking about is a nice-to-have it's it's sort of a bit of a game and if i can participate but where I come from an emerging war that's a necessity they are no other solutions so if you live in South Africa or China or India and you want to get your money into a first world country like England Australia America it's very very difficult and virtually no one can do it but it's a major problem because you want wealth preservation you want but Plan B you want your children to be able to go to a first world university etc etc etc Puerto Rico being a free associated States of the United States of America is like the best place to actually test this possibly some push for that for infrastructure for you know internet for all sorts of different things in terms of building the best infrastructure the new newest best-in-class for your business it's four percent corporate taxes and individual it's zero percent now that's what you got to move here you gotta move here okay but you don't have to give you deliver your US citizenship no taxes are great at the same time they fall in love with the islands so it's amazing because to me Puerto Rico is a combination of LA's whether San Francisco's open-mindedness and Barcelona's you know deep European history it's just a really beautiful place and it's US territory so it's a short hop and a jump to the States if you need to most people in America mainland sort of think they're going to a foreign country because it's treated that way by our government how do I come to Puerto Rico do it right not offend the culture in abil them together what's your experience with the play ball stay good friends lost their relocation services for their business and themselves so they write a big check to you guys for the service but it's you guide them through the entire process and there's real energy here because there's a social movement underneath the entire cryptocurrency movement and that's to basically help your fellow man or women all these activity is really going to give a a shot in the arm to the Puerto Rican economy and we're bringing our funds and we're bringing our advisory the radar Thank You exponent there the hurricane was a horrible atrocity that happened and now we have this blank canvas to create a vision for Puerto Rico so what we're doing is we're connecting every single University on the island to work on open source projects to like make solutions for the private sector they know that if they can buy power on a cellphone like they're already doing for other goods and services now we've got a game-changer this is restart week and one of the other things that we've done is help all of the conference's come together collaborate rather than compete so go into the same week and put all of these satellite groups around it and then we blanket it a week around it so that we had one place for people to go and look for all of the events and then also for some for them to understand a movement about the education piece it's very difficult for people that kind of get caught up to speed because there's some technical things that need to understand to really apply this technology into the business world the other day we had an event where we talked 50 people how to create a smart contract from scratch those are 50 people who are not the same anymore ecosystems developing yet entrepreneurs you got projects you got funding coming in but as it's gonna be a fight for the ecosystem because you can't have zillion ecosystems there are definitely some you know the galaxies and you know regulatory aspects that you know put some concerns and a lot of you know people's mind since its inception you've seen people and media and mainstream media in particular target Bitcoin and they're just adopting the government narrative saying oh everyone in this industry is corrupt Oh everyone in this industry is an ICS camera Oh everyone in this industry is a a drug runner and they have all selling drugs on the dark web and and it's like you know what like you can do some research and don't get better than that traditional media they want to take down everybody that they don't consider you know like a birds of the same feather there actually are a lot of scammers and a lot of like dark forces inside of the cryptocurrency movement so that's why I think we welcome kind of more regulatory influence because you know none of us want to see bad actors in the space we've seen folks go out raise you know really big about to capital with no product roadmap no business talking roadmap no real way to get from zero to X what are they trying to shoehorn a regular business onto the blockchain and just assume that by adding crypto at the end of you know toilet paper they're gonna get something I had another founder tell me that you know Mike tokens are worth 100 million humming yep you don't have a user you just have a product you're tokens I've hiked if you ask me it's it's what little I can tell my house is 100 million dollars it's only worth as much as the top buyer how much we really need hardcore reputation systems in our industry and in the for the world I think 2018 is going to be the year of clarity on regulation and I think that's where Puerto Rico comes in and plays a major role just to see the thousands of people who have come here to support these several conferences has been amazing my most surprising thing though is the amount of people that have told me that they bought a one-way ticket and have no intention of going home so to make Puerto Rico your home I think is a really amazing first step when I go to the supermarket and where I go it's full of American and people from outside and when you ask them where you're from and they will tell you from Puerto Rico this is gonna become the epicenter of this multi-billion dollar market we need to have people prepared for this you have to create the transparency the beauty of the transparency is there's actually privacy baked in and that's what I love about blockchain is it has all of the good things all communities need to evolve in my opinion between technology communities open networks of governance where we have peer-to-peer distribution of finance and of resources in a way that allows people to aggregate around the marketplaces that are actually benefitting the way that they believe the world should work we're going to be tools that far surpassed what's currently available in terms of the messages the websites all these things for 20 years the Internet has been free it's a really beautiful thing for consumption and open-source is the absolute right methodology for software when it comes to your own content a reward it makes sense everybody is going to get to play together across every device the developers are going to get rewarded for creating content people are going to be rewarded for creating things inside the games and the players are going to get rewarded for getting to the top levels of all the games and we're going to reward them through our cryptocurrency if we begin to own ourself sovereign identity then when we're owning our data that's the foundation for universal basic income communications completely frictionless payment completely frictionless and governance completely frictionless and we have to put this all together who wins here the average citizen entrepreneur that is leveraged citizen player that wants to start something whether it's a banking a service provider of some sort an entrepreneur or a new financial instrument or firm you all have greenfield opportunity here the first thing I would tell found us is to reach out ok this community is very very supportive like you can reach out to me you can reach out to other guys LinkedIn Facebook or come to these events and say your idea and you need help because you will need help you cannot run this alone ok you are running a company you're running your team have a good team that's the first thing you got to be vigilant and you keeping your money in a hard wallet not keeping your private keys on your computer if you're using a centralized system those centralized systems are really easily exploitable strategic partnerships Advisors founding team and then show the idea to the people explain yourself frankly and honestly and I think the community will reward you to go and find it ring whether you're a fortune 500 company or a startup it's all about building the community and I believe that whether it's utility Target or security or combination of the two it provides an incredible vehicle to ultimately be the catalyst to your community and if you the to community adding value then you're going to build a company event it's always gonna be led by the business model because you need something to act as the power pull to pull the thing along right and you can continuously pump capital into something but if the model is wrong it's just going to drain and it's going to go to inefficient systems and in the end maybe do some help but but a very small percentage of the capacity of what it could do then the advice would be to entrepreneurs don't fret about the infrastructure just nail your business models right and because the switching cost might not be as high as you think that's right we're in the old days when we grew up yeah you made a bad technology decision you're out of business yeah but the first advice that I give my clients is to stomp this is this business that's too much formal in it yeah right if you're missing out so no just because everybody's out there Nico you should be doing an SEO right yeah 46% of I SEOs have already failed already failed start with the business gather this in the counties down right so free cash flow unique value proposition Prada market fit what sits under business think about the token model right the token model has to go in handy now with your business model and revenue model and once you figure out that business and took the models now it's time to think about compliance I'm gonna raise money in the US and abroad I've decided to go to security choking hypothetical instance absolute what do I do is there for you an incentive mechanism or is a fundraising mechanism or both who's gonna be my user who's gonna use this token right there aren't gonna be moms dads hospitals they was my target and then how they're gonna use it and are they gonna hold it I'm gonna sell it are they gonna trade it so all these different things define that oh c'mon once you get your token actually authenticated realized everything's transparent and it gets on that secondary market it's better to use that to invest in anything you need investment get everybody incentivized around your token all your employees all your vendors everybody incentivize around that token it's a thousand percent more powerful than a dollar so the dollar doesn't go up in value in your token your token can go up and down and as soon as you find just one spark it blows up everybody boats rise equal it's pasta Sara Lee the time to crack open the champagne you still have to demonstrate product market fit you have to help build a market in our particular case so there's a lot of hard work launch it's a start line it's just like it's only a step along the whole process you know what made people get it you showed them the money yeah you showed them the money sometimes people don't you can explain these concepts that are world-changing super high level or whatever people were not actually gonna get it until it's useful to them average business people and senior business people who have typically been shut off to the idea of blockchain are now seeing this as very real and here to stay momentum is just beginning it's gonna be amazing what these guys come up with that's one of the things I love about doing this thing right I'm an old guy and I get to hang around these smart young people makes me feel young again yeah but the other thing that we have and I think you should share it as well as we have to offer to these young guys experience thing we just invented a new category in the ico category an advisor token and a you have to have the stomach for it and I think you just have to be as educated and as you can what government entity can resist for the long term something that's actually trying to provide a better and better and better financial infrastructure you should be able to participate in many different nations who have many different economies that are all really cooperating interdependently to create the best possible life for all human good one dollar will not change your life but if you change your habits you'll change your financial destiny and so my philosophy is get it to a dollar so that every single person can participate and once you start to learn good habits around money and wealth the rest it's a formula like it's a flywheel instead the world will become a better place we'll have better companies positive impact is not counter to profit they go hand in hand the Puerto Rico movement it's a movement while Czech entrepreneurs capital investors the pioneers in the blockchain decentralized Internet are all here this is like the Silicon Valley of the crypto right I think they're calling it crypto island yes TV show we should be honest like it's not lost its crypto island exclusive coverage for Puerto Rico's - Cuba I'm John Ferrari getting the signal here out of all the noise in the market this is what we do this is the cube mission great strip we start week Point agenda open content community thanks for watching [Music]

>> Announcer: Live, from San Juan, Puerto Rico, it's theCUBE. Covering BlockChain Unbound, brought to you by Blockchain Industries. (Puerto Rican music playing) >> Hey, welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage here in Puerto Rico for Blockchain Unbound. I'm John Furrier, the co-host of SiliconANGLE Medias. theCUBE is our flagship product. We go out to the events and extract the signal from the noise. My next guest is Christian Ferri who's with Block Star, doing investments, ICO advisor, he's been in the space, great to see you, nice to meet. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me John. >> Thanks for joining. So, okay, some people are saying that we're the top of the bubble, some people are saying that it's the beginning of a revolution. Some people are, like, staying away, "Oh my God, what's going on?" Some of those investing both in equity and token deals. What's your take on this? I mean, how do you explain this? Because it is a global phenomenon, I mean, what's your take? >> Yeah, I think we're at a very early beginning right now. It's definitely, I would say 1996-97 of the internet bubble if you will. We're seeing some amazing growth, right? So, things are picking up real fast I think. You know, the moment that Bitcoin hits $10,000 a lot of people got interested in all this phenomenon. ICOs are becoming the standard for fundraising for startups. It's an interesting model, you don't have to give up any equity, you don't have to give up any board seats, it's much easier, much simpler. But there are definitely some legalities and regulatory aspects that put some concerns in a lot of people's minds. >> What are the, I mean obviously if you're an investor, you got to get a pound of flesh somewhere, the old days was equity and that was a long game, it had a different gestation period. How are you making money now on the investments? Is it just getting on the discounted tokens? Is there a little liquidity going on? So, if there's no dilution, you got to make money somewhere, so, where is the secret? >> Yeah absolutely, great question. So I think if we're looking at security tokens, to finance investment vehicles, the way you make money is by the value increases of the token, right? So, as you buy a $1 and the token goes to $1.50, you have your 50% increase, right, return. There are new companies in the ICO space, they're thinking about leveraging the equity side of things, but it's fairly new. Right now it's merely a token deal, so when you think about private sale, pre-sale, it's 99% a token deal, right? Although equity's coming in because a lot more venture capital is coming in and they're demanding a piece of the action from a company in equity perspective. >> Yeah, and some of the ICO's, because we've outlined this on theCUBE many times, Blockchain, I call it the Crypto-stack, Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, and the application on the financial is ICO, >> Christian: Right. >> But that ICO also translates into the application dynamics of token economics, tends to value creation. >> Christian: Right. >> Hence what you were talking about token value going up, kind of like how equity investment would go up if it got sold on valuation, etc. >> Christian: Right. >> Okay, ICOs are hot. Now the market is pretty aware of the scams, the scams out there. Young kid puts a fake white paper out there, raises 20 million, >> Christian: Right. >> Next thing you know it's like, "where's the money?". >> Christian: I've heard that before. >> And then you've got legit ICOs going off the blocks which a really legit, going great, how do you make sense of it as an investor? Is it classic word of mouth? >> Yeah. >> What kind of due diligence are you doing? What's your filter? >> I think what you said, word of mouth definitely plays a big role in it, I had to trust that toward your network. Having a research team kind of helps understand the technology behind it, if it's actually feasible. I go through 250 white paper a month. >> So you're a white paper reader. >> I am not, my research team oversees actually. >> Okay. >> But as an investment and advisory firm, we have a lot of inflow of companies that want to get advised on or invested in. And a lot of these white papers are total moon shots, it's like build a YouTube and it's 1982, you have a dial up, you can't do that, you need a broadband, right? >> John: Yeah. >> So, you have to have a very diligent process and team that does that. And then think about 99% of the white paper you'll see are going to be crap or junk. Only one or two percent are going to be good. And so that selection process is very key. On top of that, there are a few things in the tokenization process that can raise red flags. For example, if they're too aggressive on the discounts on the private sale, like 70% discount, 80% discount, it's not a good indication, it's a red flag. >> Really, why not? >> It shows that the product is not that great, right? If you have to give somebody an 80%, if you're buying a Ferrari that is discounted at 80%, would you buy it or would you say, "well I'm not sure"? >> Well you could be, it's like giving warrant coverage on a equity deal, >> Christian: You could. >> You could go up to someone and say hey I'm going to give you 80% discount because I want you in my deal, and I want you to make more money than the other guys. >> And what we see. >> I mean that's the counter argument. >> Yeah and what we see. >> I guess what you're saying is there's two vehicles. >> Yeah. >> Desperation. >> Christian: Yep. >> I got to discount the shit out of it to get attraction. And what I'm saying is it's kind of like a hot deal you want the right people in, I've seen both. >> Christian: Yeah it's a good point, usually what we've seen in the past four and a half years is that the good deals don't get discount more than 35%. That's usually the max they get discounted, especially just because you said you need strategic partners to back you up, to help you out since the beginning. These people should be invested in the project, they should not be incentivized by the discount that you're giving them on a private sale. But they should be incentivized because they believe in you and believe in the product. >> So it's a judgment call. >> Yeah. >> You shouldn't have to drop your drawers, so to speak. >> That's right. >> Good feedback, that's great, now token sale economics, I'm the entrepreneur, how should I be thinking about going to you, and I have a good deal, I have a great product, I've got token economics, I'm a growing company, this is an opportunity for me to scale my business at an unprecedented level. I can get more capital than I can on the private market because it's flowing faster here. What do I got to do to get your attention? >> Well, first of all, from an advisor perspective, we only take usually established companies, they have a minimum of 10 million in ARR, so annual recurring revenue. We make a few exceptions, if there's a very strong team, a very strong advisory board, or they have a few characteristics and qualities that we look for. We kind of trying to wave that 10 million ARR, but we're looking for like stellar team, rockstar teams, with a good advisor board, with technologies actually feasible to be built in the next two or three years. And that can actually be deployed on the market. >> So they want to see product, you got to see product. >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> So you don't investing in the moon shot, as you said. >> No. >> Not really because that's essentially a seed deal. >> Yeah, exactly, there are circumstances when you have a very amazing team, that've done some crazy amazing things in the past, and they're talking about moon shots, right? They're, I'm not going to say a name but there's a big ICO right now raising billions of dollars. >> Telegram. >> Right, well I'm going to say a name. >> Telegram, are you in Telegram? >> Sorry? >> Are you in Telegram? >> Yeah I'm a user, right? >> Not a buyer of the ICO. >> I have not invested. >> Okay. >> I have lot of people that want to invest in an ICO, but I personally have different opinions on it. But there's a lot of moon shooting over there, right? >> John: Yeah. >> So you want to make sure there's a fine balance between what you're promising and what you can actually do. >> Great, so what's your advise to entrepreneurs when they're at the stage of, "I really want to do a token sale, I think we're ready". What's your advisory role? How do you come in and help? They might not be ready for capital but they might want some advisory, maybe throw in a little bit of token cash, not token cash in there, but legit cash via tokens. >> Christian: Absolutely. >> How do you engage? What's your, you mentioned some of the 10 million, but what do you bring to the table? >> So the way it works usually is that they come in with a white paper and an idea on an established business that they want to tokenize, and then we basically have a conversation, we start having a conversation to figure out what they want to do. But the first advice that I give my clients is to stop. This business has too much FOMO in it. >> John: Yeah. >> The fear of missing out. So not just because everybody's out there doing ICO you should be doing an ICO, right? >> John: Yep. >> So this is the first thing to take a step back, figure out what really makes sense for you, and your situation in your company. And number two, I always provide the example where, thinking of going ICO in a three step process. You start with the business, right? >> John: Yep. >> So back in the 90s and I think you were around back then. >> John: Yeah, I was. >> When you were asking somebody, when you were saying, "what are you doing?", it was like "oh I doing a startup, "I'm building a company, I'm building a startup", right? >> John: Yep. >> Everybody was talking about startups. You go just about anywhere in the world talking about Blockchain, and somebody stops you and says, "what are you doing?", an ICO, right? >> Everyone's doing it. >> Everybody's doing it, but an ICO is an investment vehicle and not a company, right? >> John: Yeah. >> So, start with the business, got the business mechanics down right, so free cash flow, unique value proposition, product-market fit. Once you've done the business, think about the token model. >> John: Yeah. >> The token model has to go in hand in hand with your business model and revenue model. And don't settle for the first one to come to mind. There are over 50 business, I'm actually writing a book about it, The First ICO Playbook coming out later this year. >> John: Okay, great. >> It's going to have some new token models in it, and once you figure out the business and token models, now it's time to think about compliance. And compliance can actually enable the rest, and, when under the right jurisdictions, they're a match for the token and the business model. >> John: Alright so the token playbook, great job, I'm glad you're writing that book, I think we need to get a good playbook down. Alright so here's a playbook question for you we're going to go to the playbook on this one. Security token, or utility token, okay, we've got that figured out. We got to have utility. I'm going to raise money in the US and abroad, I've decided to go with the security token, hypothetical instance, what do I do? Security to equity? Security for future cash flows? What is the playbook for the security token? >> Well it's more simple than it sounds, in a sense. So the first this is if you're not sure whether it's a utility or a security, just file it as a security. And from a security standpoint, I think you're covered whether or not you're selling to the US or are a US resident citizen, you still have to comply with the SEC regulations just because you're in the US. And so a security can actually have different terms just like you said, a security to equity, a security to token and so forth. That depends on what your revenue model is and what your structure of your company is, and so a lot of people are doing security equity. Other are doing security token, just because they don't want to give up the equity of the company or the board seats. >> John: So what's the biggest thing that you're scared of in this market, as an investor? Are you worried about regulatory? You worried about too much money chasing not enough good deals? What's your fear? >> One of the initiatives I started last year is called the BlockChain Compliance Alliance. It's a no-profit independent initiative to develop a standard for ICOs. >> John: You started that? >> Yeah, I founded it last year with a few other folks, and then five or six people, >> Trying to build some stability around the process? >> You got it, yeah, it's almost like a self regulating standard, or an SRO, right? >> Yeah. >> And we had the opportunity to engage in some regulators, some folks at the SEC and some other government agencies, not just in the US but also in Europe, and they're very open to have a self-regulating standard. >> We need self-regulating standards, the community's got to take care of business, there's a lot of scams out there. >> Yeah, absolutely, so they're open to say to have an industry of self regulating from the top down, the kind of choke innovations. >> John: Yeah. So I'm not really concerned about too much regulations coming in the regulators. >> John: Well the SEC's just been signaling, they've taken a few obvious scammers down, but they really haven't overreached, in my opinion, I think signaling has been good, but they're signaling. >> They are signaling. >> They're not looking the other way. >> Absolutely, and I think it's they're job, they have to be signaling. >> But then they don't know what they're talking about either so the communities got to step up to your point. >> Correct, right, so we're trying to kind of be that, basically that intermediary, if you will, right? >> How many people are involved in that? Just take a quick minute to explain, URLs or like a website. >> Yeah we do, it's blockchaincompliancealliance.org. >> John: Who's involved in that? >> It's five or six people we're getting on, volunteers, it's a nonprofit, so volunteers. We're looking for additional volunteers, donations, and a board of advisory. We have a few high level advisors. >> Whales, whales. >> Yeah, well. >> They're called whales, are they whales? >> Well, whales don't want to be known, it's hard to find a whale, but I said that we have a few high level advisors that would like to come onboard, we're going to make that announcement soon. >> Us minnows out there. >> But it's going to be exciting. >> That's awesome, okay now back to the token economics, I'm fascinated by the token economics. Again, you can't just whitewash a business in saying, "hey I'm tokenizing now", there really has to be a dynamic. What do you look for, what do you observe, and what's your thoughts on how to actually think about the token economics alignment with the business model? Where does that have to line up for you? >> Yeah, good question, I think there are different aspects of it, first of all, you need to define what a token is. Is that for you an incentive mechanism? In which case, you can use an airdrop model, you don't necessarily have to ask people for money. Or is it a fundraising mechanism, or both? So let's just start with these basic questions. You can think of it, you can move on to say, "who's going to be my user?", right? Who's going to use this token? Think about are they going to be moms, dads, hospitals? Like what's my target? And then how they're going to use it, are they going to hold it? Are they going to sell it, are they going to trade it? So all these different things define the token model, right? And the token model, as we said, needs to go hand in hand with the business model, the revenue model as well. So for example a lot of companies are using the token as a fundraising mechanism, but an incentive mechanism as well to incentivize this behavior. >> So talk about the dynamics of an airdrop and a token swap. We're starting to see airdrops are well known, just take advantage of explaining to folks who don't know. And then, I'll get to the token swapping, we're seeing some synergistic keiretsus for me, so airdrops and then token swaps. >> Yeah, airdrops are becoming, basically the new standard, I would say, they're a way-- >> John: Outside the US? >> Even the US, actually. >> John: Are they doing it in the US? Okay, explain what it is. >> There's a company, I think it's called Earn.com, where you can actually launch your airdrop campaign for free or you have to pay something but >> John: What's the URL? >> Earn, Earn.com >> John: Earn.com, okay yeah I see that. >> E-A-R-N, yeah. >> Explain what an airdrop is, just define it. >> So, it's a very simple term, you basically airdrop tokens, you basically give tokens to users, to people, right? So basically people sign up on your site, and you white list an address, and then you basically send those tokens to that address. So it's a way to circumvent a public sale. >> So get free tokens out? >> Christian: Yeah. >> To generate community activity, marketing buzz. >> Christian: Correct. >> So you're just going to airdrop it, kind of metaphorically. >> Right, there are some ways that people do private sales with airdropping. >> Where's the gotchas on the airdrops? Where are people getting in trouble? >> Well, if the token is a security, depends on if they're giving it to you for free, but the value increases, the token increases in value, that delta becomes dubious. From an IRS perspective, from an SEC perspective, from a CFDC perspective, that we still haven't figured out, but ideally if we give out free tokens to incentivize the community, >> Yeah that's normal marketing usage, in the SEC you view that as a utility, a legit utility. >> Yeah we see that with the new bill that passed in the past couple of days, that's how they define utility. >> Alright now let's talk about swaps, token swaps, because starting to see some activity around, self-forming, which is natural in communities, adjacent businesses saying, "hey I'll swap "two million dollars worth of tokens "for two million dollars of mine". Kind of a Barney deal, you love me, I love you back, kind of thing, but it's trying to cross pollinate communities and share value, basically a Bus Dev Bill. >> Christian: Yeah, absolutely. >> What do you think about that? >> It's great, I've seen that a lot of that in forming new partnerships between ICOs. So, let's say there are two ICOs that definitely want to have some IOJV or some partnership together, they have some qualities that they'd like to have of each other, and that's how they do it, they do a token swap. It's almost like an equity swap from a regular traditional company standpoint. It's almost like you want to have an action in the company, and I think it's a great model, it's a great incentive mechanism. >> A great legal bill too in all this, someone's got to pay for it, lawyers are having some fun with it. >> Yeah. >> Kind of new progressive laws being figured out, lawyers generating new dockets for the first time, final question for you, I know you got to run, appreciate your time spending it with us. Puerto Rico, you're observation here, you're from the bay area like we are, what are you doing here? Why are you here? What's your observation, what's the hallway conversation? Share some color commentary about BlockChain Unbound. >> So, I'll start with why I'm here. So, it's beautiful place, the weather is amazing, the water is amazing, it's a great place to take some time off. I'm speaking at a bunch of conferences, and meeting a few people. And I'm part of the movement of the Puerto Rico Crypto Movement. I think it's great, I had the opportunity to meet with some of the government officials that came here at BlockChain Unbound today, and talk a little bit about what's happening, how can we actually make sure that, create some sort of a system that is made for ICOs and BlockChain, and what I like about it is that it's very open to accept new ideas, very open to try out new things, which not always happens in the government space, so I'm very excited about >> And they're really active to open arms. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So, I have very high expectations and very good sense that things are going to pan out here. >> You do any deals here? Write any checks? Sign any commitments? Verbal MOUs, handshakes, what's happening? >> There's been some of that. I'm a big believer that you need to do enough due diligence on the process, so have a cool off period, a honeymoon period kind of cool off but I think there are some very interesting people here, I met some very interesting brains, very interesting products. And the energy, you can feel the energy. People want to try their risk and invest. >> I see a lot of people doing deals, I saw one VC, I'm sorry, VC, investor, token investor, he's done six deals already here. >> Christian: Yeah. >> He's buying tokens, handshake, verbal commitments, and MOUs. >> Yeah there's a lot of that going on. >> And a lot of money coming it, a lot of international too. >> Absolutely. >> So great to see not just here in Puerto Rico, not just US, this is a global phenomenon. >> It is, this is one of the things that BlockChain is about. It's ubiquitous, it's everywhere, and that's the beauty of it. >> Well, Christian, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE, we really appreciate it, thanks for sharing the data and advice. The BlockChain Playbook is coming out at the end of the year check it out, Christian Ferri with BlockStar. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE, SiliconANGLE Media. Live coverage here, wall to wall, two days, back with more after this short break.