>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of dr khan 2021. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with Amanda Silver, corporate vice president, product developer division at Microsoft. Amanda, Great to see you you were on last year, Dr khan. Great to see you again a full year later were remote. Thanks for coming on. I know you're super busy with build happening this week as well. Thanks for making the time to come on the cube for Dr khan. >>Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I'm joining you like many developers around the globe from my personal home office, >>developers really didn't skip a beat during the pandemic and again, it was not a good situation but developers, as you talked about last year on the front lines, first responders to creating value quite frankly, looking back you were pretty accurate in your prediction, developers did have an impact this year. They did create the kind of change that really changed the game for people's lives, whether it was developing solutions from a medical standpoint or even keeping systems running from call centres to making sure people got their their their goods or services and checks and and and kept sanity together. So. >>Yeah absolutely. I mean I think I think developers you know get the M. V. P. Award for this year because you know at the end of the day they are the digital first responders to the first responders and the pivot that we've had to make over the past year in terms of supporting remote telehealth, supporting you know online retail, curbside pickup. All of these things were done through developers being the ones pushing the way forward remote learning. You know my kids are learning at home right behind me right now so you might hear them during the interview that's happening because developers made that happen. >>I don't think mom please stop hogging the band with, they've got a gigabit. Stop it. Don't be streaming. My kids are all game anyway, Hey, great to have you on and you have to get the great keynote, exciting to see you guys continue the collaboration with Docker uh with GIT hub and Microsoft, A great combination, it's a 123 power punch of value. You guys are really kind of killing it. We heard from scott and dan has been on the cube. What's your thoughts on the partnership with the developer division team at Microsoft with Doctor, What's it all about this year? What's the next level? >>Well, I mean, I think, I think what's really awesome about this partnership is that we all have, we all are basically sharing a common mission. What we want to do is make sure that we're empowering developers, that we're focused on their productivity and that we're delivering value to them so they can do their job better so that they can help others. So that's really kind of what drives us day in and day out. So what we focus on is developer productivity. And I think that's a lot of what dana was talking about in her session, the developer division. Specifically, we really try to make sure that we're improving the state of the art from modern developers. So we want to make sure that every keystroke that they take, every mouse move that they make, it sounds like a song but every every one of those matter because we want to make sure that every developers writing the code that only they can write and in terms of the partnership and how that's going. You know my team and the darker team have been collaborating a ton on things like dr desktop and the Doctor Cli tool integrations. And one of the things that we do is we think about pain points and various workflows. We want to make sure that we're shaving off the edges of all of the user experience is the developers have to go through to piece all of these applications together. So one of the big pain points that we have heard from developers is that signing into the Azure cloud and especially our sovereign clouds was challenging. So we contributed back to uh back to doctor to actually make it easier to sign into these clouds. And so dr developers can now use dr desktop and the Doctor Cli to actually change the doctor context so that its Azure. So that makes it a lot easier to connect the other. Oh, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just >>going to say, I love the reference of the police song. Every breath you take, every >>mouth moving. Great, >>great line there. Uh, but I want to ask you while you're on this modern cloud um, discussion, what is I mean we have a lot of developers here at dr khan. As you know, you guys know developers in your ecosystem in core competency. From Microsoft, Kublai khan is a very operator like focus developed. This is a developer conference. You guys have build, what is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? Could you just share your thoughts because this comes up a lot. You know, what's through the art? What's next jan new guard guard? It's his legacy. What is the state of the art for a modern cloud developer? >>Fantastic question. And extraordinarily relevant to this particular conference. You know what I think about often times it's really what is the inner loop and the outer loop look like in terms of cycle times? Because at the end of the day, what matters is the time that it takes for you to make that code change, to be able to see it in your test environment and to be able to deploy it to production and have the confidence that it's delivering the feature set that you need it to. And it's, you know, it's secure, it's reliable, it's performance, that's what a developer cares about at the end of the day. Um, at the same time, we also need to make sure that we're growing our team to meet our demand, which means we're constantly on boarding new developers. And so what I take inspiration from our, some of the tech elite who have been able to invest significant amounts in, in tuning their engineering systems, they've been able to make it so that a new developer can join a team in just a couple of minutes or less that they can actually make a code change, see that be reflected in their application in just a few seconds and deploy with confidence within hours. And so our goal is to actually be able to take that state of the art metric and democratize that actually bring it to as many of our customers as we possibly can. >>You mentioned supply chain earlier in securing that. What are you guys doing with Docker and how to make that partnership better with registries? Is there any update there in terms of the container registry on Azure? >>Yeah, I mean, you know, we, we we have definitely seen recent events and and it almost seems like a never ending attacks that that you know, increasingly are getting more and more focused on developer watering holes is how we think about it. Kind of developers being a primary target um for these malicious hackers. And so what it's more important than ever that every developer um and Microsoft especially uh really take security extraordinarily seriously. Our engineers are working around the clock to make sure that we are responding to every security incident that we hear about and partnering with our customers to make sure that we're supporting them as well. One of the things that we announced earlier this week at Microsoft build is that we've actually taken, get have actions and we've now integrated that into the Azure Security Center. And so what this means is that, you know, we can now do things like scan for vulnerabilities. Um look at things like who is logging in, where things like that and actually have that be tracked in the Azure security center so that not just your developers get that notification but also your I. T. Operations. Um In terms of the partnership with dR you know, this is actually an ongoing partnership to make sure that we can provide more guidance to developers to make sure that they are following best practices like pulling from a private registry like Docker hub or at your container registry. So I expect that as time goes on will continue to more in partnership in this space >>and that's going to give a lot of confidence. Actually, productivity wise is going to be a big help for developers. Great stuff is always good, good progress. They're moving the needle. >>Last time we >>spoke we talked about tools and setting Azure as the doctor context duty tooling updates here at dot com this year. That's notable. >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there's one major thing that we've been working on which has a big dependency on docker is get help. Code space is now one of the biggest pain points that developers have is setting up a new DEV box, which they often have to do when they are on boarding a new employee or when they're starting a new project or even if they're just kicking the tires on a new technology that they want to be able to evaluate and sometimes creating a developer environment can actually take hours um and especially when you're trying to create a developer environment that matches somebody else's developer environment that can take like a half a day and you can spend all of your time just debugging the differences in environment variables, for example, um, containers actually makes that much easier. So what you can do with this, this services, you can actually create death environment spun up in the cloud and you can access it in seconds and you get from there are working coding environment and a runtime environment and this is repeatable via containers. So it means that there's no inadvertent differences introduced by each DEV. And you might be interested to know that underneath this is actually using Docker files and dr composed to orchestrate the debits and the runtime bits for a whole bunch of different stacks. And so this is something that we're actually working on in collaboration with the with the doctor team to have a common the animal format. And in fact this week we actually introduced a couple of app templates so that everybody can see this all in action. So if you check out a ca dot m s forward slash app template, you can see this in action yourself. >>You guys have always had such a strong developer community and one thing I love about cloud as it brings more agility, as we always talk about. But when you start to see the enterprise grow into, the direction is going now, it's almost like the developer communities are emerging, it's no longer about all the Lennox folks here and the dot net folks there, you've got windows, you've got cloud, >>it's almost >>the the the solidification of everyone kind of coming together. Um and visual studio, for instance, last year, I think you were talking about that to having to be interrogated dr composed, et cetera. >>How do you see >>this melting pot emerging? Because at the end of the day, you pick the language you love and you got devops, which is infrastructure as code doesn't matter. So give us your take on where we are with that whole progress of of making that happen. >>Well, I mean I definitely think that, you know, developer environments and and kind of, you know, our approach to them don't need to be as dogmatic as they've been in the past. I really think that, you know, you can pick the right tool and language and stand developer stack for your team, for your experience and you can be productive and that's really our goal. And Microsoft is to make sure that we have tools for every developer and every team so that they can build any app that they want to want to create. Even if that means that they're actually going to end up ultimately deploying that not to our cloud, they're going to end up deploying it to AWS or another another competitive cloud. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that we've been doing to make that really much easier. We have integrated container tools in visual studio and visual studio code and better cli integrations like with the doctor context that we had talked about a little bit earlier. We continue to try to make it easier to build applications that are targeting containers and then once you create those containers it's much easier to take it to another environment. One of the examples of this kind of work is now that we have WsL and the Windows subsystem for Lennox. This makes it a lot easier for developers who prefer a Windows operating system as their environment and maybe some tools like Visual Studio that run on Windows, but they can still target Lennox with as their production environment without any impedance mismatch. They can actually be as productive as they would be if they had a Linux box as their Os >>I noticed on this session, I got to call this out. I want to get your reaction to it interesting. Selection of Microsoft talks, the container based development. Visual studio code is one that's where you're going to show some some some container action going on with note and Visual Studio code. And then you get the machine learning with Azure uh containers in the V. S. Code. Interesting how you got, you know, containers with V. S. And now you've got machine learning. What does that tell the world about where Microsoft's at? Because in a way you got the cutting edge container management on one side with the doctor integration. Now you get the machine learning which everyone's talking about shifting, left more automation. Why are these sessions so important? Why should people attend? And what's the what's the bottom line? >>Well, like I said, like containers basically empower developer productivity. Um that's what creates the reputable environments, that's what allows us to make sure that, you know, we're productive as soon as we possibly can be with any text act that we want to be able to target. Um and so that's kind of almost the ecosystem play. Um it's how every developer can contribute to the success of others and we can amor ties the kinds of work that we do to set up an environment. So that's what I would say about the container based development that we're doing with both visual studio and visual studio code. Um in terms of the machine learning development, uh you know, the number of machine learning developers in the world is relatively small, but it's growing and it's obviously a very important set of developers because to train a machine learning uh to train an ml model, it actually requires a significant amount of compute resources, and so that's a perfect opportunity to bring in the research that are in a public cloud. Um What's actually really interesting about that particular develop developer stack is that it commonly runs on things like python. And for those of you who have developed in python, you know, just how difficult it is to actually set up a python environment with the right interpreter, with the right run time, with the right libraries that can actually get going super quickly, um and you can be productive as a developer. And so it's actually one of the hardest, most challenging developer stacks to actually set up. And so this allows you to become a machine learning developer without having to spend all of your time just setting up the python runtime environment. >>Yeah, it's a nice, nice little call out on python, it's a double edged sword. It's easier to sling code around on one hand, when you start getting working then you gotta it gets complicated can get well. Um Well the great, great call out there on the island, but good, good, good project. Let me get your thoughts on this other tool that you guys are talking about project tie. Uh This is interesting because this is a trend that we're seeing a lot of conversations here on the cube about around more too many control planes. Too many services. You know, I no longer have that monolithic application. I got micro micro applications with microservices. What the hell is going on with my services? >>Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, containers brought an incredible amount of productivity in terms of having repeatable environments, both for dev environments, which we talked about a lot on this interview already, but also obviously in production and test environments. Super important. Um and with that a lot of times comes the microservices architecture that we're also moving to and the way that I view it is the microservices architecture is actually accompanied by businesses being more focused on the value that they can actually deliver to customers. And so they're trying to kind of create separations of concerns in terms of the different services that they're offering, so they can actually version and and kind of, you know, actually improve each of these services independently. But what happens when you start to have many microservices working together in a SAS or in some kind of aggregate um service environment or kind of application environment is it starts to get unwieldy, it's really hard to make it so that one micro service can actually address another micro service. They can pass information back and forth. And you know what used to be maybe easy if you were just building a client server application because, you know, within the server tear all of your code was basically contained in the same runtime environment. That's no longer the case when every microservices actually running inside of its own container. So the question is, how can we improve program ability by making it easier for one micro service that's being used in an application environment, be to be able to access another another service and kind of all of that context. Um and so, you know, you want to be able to access the service is the the api endpoint, the containers, the ingress is everything, make everything work together as though it felt just as easy as as um you know, server application development. Um And so what this means as well is that you also oftentimes need to get all of these different containers running at the same time and that can actually be a challenge in the developer and test loop as well. So what project tie does is it improves the program ability and it actually allows you to just write a command like thai run so that you can actually in stan she ate all of these containers and get them up and running and basically deploy and run your application in that environment and ultimately make the dev testing or loop much faster >>than productivity gain. Right. They're making it simple to stand up. Great, great stuff. Let me ask you a question as we kind of wrap down here for the folks here at Dakar Con, are >>there any >>special things you'd like to talk about the development you think are important for the developers here within this space? It's very dynamic. A lot of change happening in a good way. Um, but >>sometimes it's hard to keep >>track of all the cool stuff happening. Could you take a minute to, to share your thoughts on what you think are the most important develops developments in this space? That that might be interesting to ducker con attendees. >>I think the most important things are to recognize that developer environments are moving to containerized uh, environments themselves so that they can be repeated, they can be shared, the work, configuring them can be amortized across many developers. That's important thing. Number one important thing. Number two is it doesn't matter as much what operating system you're running as your chrome, you know, desktop. What matters is ultimately the production environment that you're targeting. And so I think now we're in a world where all of those things can be mixed and matched together. Um and then I think the next thing is how can we actually improve microservices, uh programming development together um so that it's easier to be able to target multiple micro services that are working in aggregate uh to create a single service experience or a single application. And how do we improve the program ability for that? >>You know, you guys have been great supporters of DACA and the community and open source and software developers as they transform and become quite frankly the superheroes for the transformation, which is re factoring businesses. So this has been a big thing. I'd love to get your thoughts on how this is all coming together inside Microsoft, you've got your division, you get the developer division, you got GIT hub, got Azure. Um, and then just historically, and he put this up last year army of an ecosystem. People who have been contributing encoding with Microsoft and the partners for many, many decades. >>Yes. The >>heart Microsoft now, how's it all working? What's the news? I get Lincoln, Lincoln, but there's no yet developer model there yet, but probably is soon. >>Um Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty broad question, but in some ways I think it's interesting to put it in the context of Microsoft's history. You know, I think when I think back to the beginning of my career, it was kind of a one stack shop, you know, we was all about dot net and you know, of course we want to dot net to be the best developer environment that it can possibly be. We still actually want that. We still want that need to be the most productive developer environment. It could we could possibly build. Um but at the same time, I think we have to recognize that not all developers or dot net developers and we want to make sure that Azure is the most productive cloud for developers and so to do that, we have to make sure that we're building fantastic tools and platforms to host java applications, javascript applications, no Js applications, python applications, all of those things, you know, all of these developers in the world, we want to make sure it can be productive on our tools and our platforms and so, you know, I think that's really kind of the key of you know what you're speaking of because you know, when I think about the partnership that I have with the GIT hub team or with the Azure team or with the Azure Machine learning team or the Lincoln team, um A lot of it actually comes down to helping empower developers, improving their productivity, helping them find new developers to collaborate with, um making sure that they can do that securely and confidently and they can basically respond to their customers as quickly as they possibly can. Um and when, when we think about partnering inside of Microsoft with folks like linkedin or office as an example, a lot of our partnership with them actually comes down to improving their colleagues efficiency. We build the developer tools that office and lengthen are built on top of and so every once in a while we will make an improvement that has, you know, 5% here, 3% there and it turns into an incredible amount of impact in terms of operations, costs for running these services. >>It's interesting. You mentioned earlier, I think there's a time now we're living in a time where you don't have to be dogmatic anymore, you can pick what you like and go with it. Also that you also mentioned just now this idea of distributed applications, distributed computing. You know, distributed applications and microservices go really well together. Especially with doctor. >>Can you share >>your thoughts on the framework that you guys released called Dapper? >>Yeah, yeah. We recently released Dapper. It's called D A P R. You can look it up on GIT hub and it's a programming model for common microservices pattern, two common microservices patterns that make it really easy and automatic to create those kinds of microservices. So you can choose to work with your favorite state stores or databases or pub sub components and get things like cloud events for free. You can choose either http or g R B C so that you can get mesh capabilities like service discovery and re tries and you can bring your own secret store and easily be able to call it from any environment variable. It's also like I was talking about earlier, multi lingual. Um so you don't need to embrace dot net, for example, as you're programming language to be able to benefit from Dapper, it actually supports many programming languages and Dapper itself is actually written and go. Um and so, you know, all developers can benefit from something like Dapper to make it easier to create microservices applications. >>I mean, always great to have you on great update. Take a minute to give an update on what's going on with your division. I know you had to build conference this week. V. S has got the new preview title. We just talked about what are the things you want to get to plug in for? Take a minute to get to plug in for what you're working on, your goals, your objectives hiring, give us the update. >>Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, we we built integrated container tools in visual studio uh and the Doctor extension and Visual Studio code and cli extensions. Uh and you know, even in this most recent release of our Visual Studio product, Visual Studio 16 10, we added some features to make it easier to use DR composed better. So one of the examples of this is that you can actually have uh Oftentimes you need to be able to use multiple doctor composed files together so that you can actually configure various different container environments for a single single application. But it's hard sometimes to create the right Yeah. My file so that you can actually invoke it and invoke the the container and the micro services that you need. And so what this allows you to do is to actually have just a menu of the different doctor composed files so that you can select the runtime and test environment that you need for the subset of the portion of the application that you're working on at the end of the day. This is always about developer productivity. You know, like I said, every keystroke matters. Um and we want to make sure that you as a developer can focus on the code that only you can Right. >>Amanda Silver, corporate vice president product development division of Microsoft. Always great to see you and chat with you remotely soon. We'll be back in in real life with real events soon as we come out of the pandemic and thanks for sharing your insight and congratulations on your success this year and and congratulations on your announcement here at Dakar Gone. >>Thank you so much for having me. >>Okay Cube coverage for Dunkirk on 2021. I'm John for your host of the Cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm

>>from around the globe. It's the cube with coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con, Europe 2021 >>virtual brought to you by red hat. The cloud Native >>computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage everyone of Coop Con 2021 Cloud Native Con 21 virtual europe. I'm john for your host of the cube. We've got two great guests here, James Labaki, senior Director of Product management, Red Hat and Richer Puree. IBM fellow and chief scientist at IBM Gentlemen, thanks for coming on the cube, appreciate it. >>Thank you for having us. >>So, um, got an IBM fellow and Chief scientist, Senior Director Product management. You guys have the keys to the kingdom on cloud Native. All right, it's gonna be fun. So let's just jump into it. So I want to ask you before we get into some of the questions around the projects, what you guys take of cube con this year, in terms of the vibe, I know it's virtual in europe north America, we looked like we might be in person but this year with the pandemic cloud native just seems to have a spring to its step, it's got more traction. I've seen the cloud native piece even more than kubernetes in a way. So scott cooper diseases continues to have traction, but it's always about kubernetes now. It's more cloud native. I what do you guys think about that? >>Yeah, I'm sure you have thoughts and I could add on >>Yes, I I think well I would really think of it as almost sequential in some ways. Community is too cold now there's a layer which comes above it which is where all our, you know, clients and enterprises realize the value, which is when the applications really move. It's about the applications and what they can deliver to their end customers. And the game now is really about moving those applications and making them cloud native. That's when the value of that software infrastructure will get realized and that's why you are seeing that vibe in the, in the clients and enterprises and at two corners. Well, >>yeah, I mean, I think it's exciting. I've been covering this community since the beginning as you guys know the cube. This is the enablement moment where the fruit is coming off the tree is starting to see that first wave of you mentioned that enablement, it's happening and you can see it in the project. So I want to get into the news here, the conveyor community. What is this about? Can you take a minute to explain what is the conveyor community? >>Yeah, yeah. I think uh, you know, uh, what, what we discovered is we were starting to work with a lot of end users and practitioners. Is that what we're finding is that they kind of get tired of hearing about digital transformation and from multiple vendors and and from sales folks and these sorts of things. And when you speak to the practitioners, they just want to know what are the practical implications of moving towards a more collaborative architecture. And so, um, you know, when you start talking to them at levels beyond, uh, just generic kind of, you know, I would say marketing speak and even the business cases, the developers and sys admins need to know what it is they need to do to their application architecture is the ways they're working for to successfully modernize their applications. And so the idea behind the conveyor community was really kind of two fold. One was to help with knowledge sharing. So we started running meetups where people can come and share their knowledge of what they've done around specific topics like strangling monoliths or carving offside containers or things that sidecar containers are things that they've done successfully uh to help uh kind of move things forward. So it's really about knowledge sharing. And then the second piece we discovered was that there's really no place where you can find open source tools to help you re host re platform and re factor your applications to kubernetes. And so that's really where we're trying to fill that void is provide open source options in that space and kind of inviting everybody else to collaborate with us on that. >>Can you give an example of something uh some use cases of people doing this, why the need the drivers? It makes sense. Right. As a growing, you've got, you have to move applications. People want to have um applications moved to communities. I get that. But what are some of the use cases that were forcing this? >>Yeah, absolutely, for sure. I don't know if you have any you want to touch on um specifically I could add on as well. >>Yeah, I think some of the key use cases, I would really say it will be. So let let me just, I think James just talked about re host, re hosting, re platform ng and re factoring, I'm gonna put some numbers on it and then they talk about the use case a little bit as well. I would really say 30 virtual machines movement. That's it. That's the first one to happen. Easy, easier one, relatively speaking. But that's the first one to happen. The re platform in one where you are now really sort of changing the stack as well but not changing the application in any major way yet. And the hardest one happened around re factoring, which is, you are, you know, this is when we start talking about cloud native, you take a monolithic application which you know legacy applications which have been running for a long time and try to re factor them so that you can build microservices out of them. The very first, I would say set of clients that we are seeing at the leading edge around this will be around banking and insurance. Legacy applications, banking is obviously finances a large industry and that's the first movement you start seeing which is where the complexity of the application in terms of some of the legacy code that you are seeing more onto the, into the cloud. That for a cloud native implementation as well as their as well as a diversity of scenarios from a re hosting and re platform ng point of view. And we'll talk about some of the tools that we are putting in the community uh to help the users and uh and the developer community in many of these enterprises uh move into a cloud native implementation lot of their applications. And also from the point of view of helping them in terms of practice, is what I describe as best practices. It is not just about tools, it's about the community coming together. How do I do this? How do I do that? Actually, there are best practices that we as a community have gathered. It's about that sharing as well, James. >>Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. Right. So you re hosting like for example, you might have uh an application that was delivered, you buy an SV that is not available containerized yet. You need to bring that over as a VM. So you can bring that into Q Bert, you know, and actually bring that and just re hosted. You can, you might have some things that you've already containerized but they're sitting on a container orchestration layer that is no longer growing, right? So the innovation has kind of left that platform and kind of kubernetes has become kind of that standard one, the container orchestration layer, if you want become the de facto standard. And so you want to re platform that that takes massaging and transforming metadata to do that to create the right objects and so on and so forth. So there's a bunch of different use cases around that that kind of fall into that re host tree platform all the way up to re factoring >>So just explain for the audience and I know I love I love the three things re hosting re platform in and re factoring what's the difference between re platform NG and re factoring specifically, what's the nuance there? >>Yeah, yeah, so so a lot of times I think people have a lot of people, you know, I think obviously amazon kind of popularized the six hours framework years ago, you know, with, with, with, with that. And so if you look at what they kind of what they popularize it was replied corn is really kind of like a lift tinker and shift. So maybe it's, I, I'm not just taking my VM and putting it on new infrastructure, I'm gonna take my VM, maybe put on new infrastructure, but I'm gonna switch my observer until like a lighter weight observer or something like that at the same time. So that would fall into like a re platform or in the case, you know, one of the things we're seeing pretty heavily right now is the move from cloud foundry to kubernetes for example, where people are looking to take their application and actually transform it and run it on kubernetes, which requires you to really kind of re platform as well. And re factoring >>is what specific I get the >>report re factoring is, I think just following on to what James said re factoring is really about um the complexity of the application, which was mainly a monolithic large application, many of these legacy applications which have so many times, actually hundreds of millions of dollars of assets for these uh these enterprises, it's about taking the code and re factoring it in terms of dividing it into uh huh different pieces of court which can themselves be spun as microservices. So then it becomes true, it takes starting advantage of agility or development in a cloud native environment as well. It's not just about either lift and shift of the VM or or lift tinker and shift from a, from a staff point of view. It's really about not taking applications and dividing them so that we can spin microservices and it has the identity of the development of a cloud. >>I totally got a great clarification, really want to get that out there because re platform ng is really a good thing to go to the cloud. Hey, I got reticent open source, I'll use that, I can do this over here and then if we use that vendor over there, use open source over there. Really good way to look at it. I like the factory, it's like a complete re architecture or re factoring if you will. So thank you for the clarification. Great, great topic. Uh, this is what practitioners think about. So I gotta ask the next question, what projects are involved in in the community that you guys are working? It seems like a really valuable service uh and group. Um can you give an overview and what's going on in the community specifically? >>Yeah, so there's really right now, there's kind of five projects that are in the community and they're all in different, I would say different stages of maturity as well. So, um there's uh when you look at re hosting, there's two kind of primary projects focused on that. One is called forklift, which is about migrating your virtual machines into cuba. So covert is a way that you can run virtual machines orchestrated by kubernetes. We're seeing kind of a growth in demand there where people want to have a common orchestration for both their VMS and containers running on bare metal. And so forklift helps you actually mass migrate VMS into that environment. Um The second one on the re hosting side is called Crane. So Crane is really a tool that helps you migrate applications between kubernetes clusters. So you imagine you have all your you know, you might have persistent data and one kubernetes cluster and you want to migrate a name space from one cluster to another. Um That's where Crane comes in and actually helps you migrate between those um on the re platforms that we have moved to cube, which actually came from the IBM research team. So they actually open source that uh you sure you want to speak about uh moved to >>cube. Yeah, so so moved to cuba is really as we discuss the re platform scenario already, it is about, you know, if you are in a docker environment or hungry environment uh and you know, kubernetes has become a de facto standard now you are containerized already, but you really are actually moving into the communities based environment as the name implies, It's about moved to cuba back to me and this is one of the things we were looking at and as we were looking, talking to a lot of, a lot of users, it became evident to us that they are adapting now the de facto standard. Uh and it's a tool that helps you enable your applications in that new environment and and move to the new stuff. >>Yeah. And then the the the only other to our tackle which is uh probably like the one of the newest projects which is focused on kind of assessment and analysis of applications for container reservation. So actually looking at and understanding what the suitability is of an application for being containerized and start to be like being re factored into containers. Um and that's that's uh, you know, we have kind of engineers across both uh Red hat IBM research as well as uh some folks externally that are starting to become interested in that project as well. Um and the last, the last project is called Polaris, which is a tool to help you measure your software delivery performance. So this might seem a little odd to have in the community. But when you think about re hosting re platform and re factoring, the idea is that you want to measure your software delivery performance on top of kubernetes and that's what this does. It kind of measures the door metrics. If you're familiar with devops realization metrics. Um so things like, you know, uh you know, your change failure rate and other things on top of their to see are you actually improving as you're making these changes? >>Great. Let me ask the question for the folks watching or anyone interested, how do they get involved? Who can contribute, explain how people get involved? Is our site, is there up location slack channel? What's out there? >>Yeah, yeah, all of the above. So we have a, we have, we have a slack channel, we're on slack dot kubernetes dot io on town conveyor, but if you go to www dot conveyor dot io conveyor with a K. Uh, not like the cube with a C. Uh, but like cube with a K. Uh, they can go to a conveyor to Ohio and um, there they can find everything they need. So, um, we have a, you know, a governance model that's getting put in place, contributor ladder, all the things you'd expect. We're kind of talking into the C N C F around the gap delivery groups to kind of understand if we can um, how we can align ourselves so that in the future of these projects take off, they can become kind of sandbox projects. Um and uh yeah, we would welcome any and all kind of contribution and collaboration >>for sure. I don't know if you have >>anything to add on that, I >>think you covered it at the point has already um, just to put a plug in for uh we have already been having meetups, so on the best practices you will find the community, um, not just on convert or die. Oh, but as you start joining the community and those of meet ups and the help you can get whether on the slack channel, very helpful on the day to day problems that you are encountering as you are taking your applications to a cloud native environment. >>So, and I can see this being a big interest enterprises as they have a mix and match environment and with container as you can bring and integrate old legacy. And that's the beautiful thing about hybrid cloud that I find fascinating right now is that with all the goodness of stade Coubertin and cloud native, if you've got a legacy environments, great fit now. So you don't have to kill the old to bring in the news. So this is gonna be everything a real popular project for, you know, the class, what I call the classic enterprise, So what you guys both have your companies participated in. So with that is that the goal is that the gulf of this community is to reach out to the classic enterprise or open source because certainly and users are coming in like, like, like you read about, I mean they're coming in fast into the community. >>What's the goal for the community really is to provide assistant and help and guidance to the users from a community point of view. It's not just from us whether it is red hat or are ideal research, but it's really enterprises start participating and we're already seeing that interest from the enterprises because there was a big gap in this area, a lot of vendor. Exactly when you start on this journey, there will be 100 people who will be telling you all you have to do is this Yeah, that's easy. All you have to do. I know there is a red flag goes up, >>it's easy just go cloud native all the way everything is a service. It's just so easy. Just you know, just now I was going to brian gracefully, you get right on that. I want to just quickly town tangent here, brian grazer whose product strategist at red hat, you're gonna like this because he's like, look at the cloud native pieces expanding because um, the enterprises now are, are in there and they're doing good work before you saw projects like envoy come from the hyper scales like lift and you know, the big companies who are building their own stuff, so you start to see that transition, it's no longer the debate on open source and kubernetes and cloud native. It's the discussion is integration legacy. So this is the big discussion this week. Do you guys agree with that? And what would, what would be your reaction? >>Yeah, no, I, I agree with you. Right. I mean, I think, you know, I think that the stat you always here is that the 1st 20 of kind of cloud happened and now there's all the rest of it. Right? And, and modernization is going to be the big piece right? You have to be able to modernize those applications and those workloads and you know, they're, I think they're gonna fall in three key buckets, right? Re host free platform re factor and dependent on your business justification and you know, your needs, you're going to choose one of those paths and we just want to be able to provide open tools and a community based approach to those folks too to help that certainly will have and just, you know, just like it always does, you know, upstream first and then we'll have enterprise versions of these migration tool kits based on these projects, but you know, we really do want to kind of build them, you know, and make sure we have the best solution to the problem, which we believe community is the way to do that. >>And I think just to add to what James said, typically we are talking about enterprises, these enterprises will have thousands of applications, so we're not talking about 10 40 number. We're talking thousands or 20% is not a small number is still 233 400. But man, the work is remaining and that's why they are getting excited about cloud negative now, okay, now we have seen the benefit but this little bit here, but now, let's get, you know serious about about that transformation and this is about helping them in a cloud native uh in an open source way, which is what red hat. XL Sad. Let's bring the community together. >>I'm actually doing a story on that. You brought that up with thousands of applications because I think it's, it's under underestimate, I think it's going to be 1000s and thousands more because businesses now, software driven everywhere and observe ability has pointed this out. And I was talking to the founder of uh Ravana project and it's like, how many thousands of dashboards you're gonna need? Roads are So so this is again, this is the problems and the opportunities are coming together, the abstraction will get you to move up the stack in terms of automation. So it's kind of fascinating when you start thinking about the impact as this goes the next level. And so I have to ask your roaches since you're an IBM fellow and chief scientist, which by the way, is a huge distinction. Congratulations. Being an IBM fellow is is a big deal. Uh IBM takes that very seriously. Only a few of them. You've seen many waves and cycles of innovation. How would you categorize this one now? Because maybe I'm getting old and and loving this right now. But this seems like everything kind of coming together in one flash 10.1 major inflection point. All the other waves combined seemed to be like in this one movement very fast. What's your what's your take on this wave that we're in? >>Yes, I would really say there is a lot of technology has been developed but that technology needs to have its value unleashed and that's exactly where the intersection of those applications and that technology occurs. Um I'm gonna put in yet another. You talked about everything becoming software. This was Anderson I think uh Jack Lee said the software is eating the world another you know, another wave that has started as a i eating software as well. And I do believe these two will go inside uh to uh like let me just give you a brief example re factoring how you take your application and smart ways of using ai to be able to recommend the right microservices for you is another one that we've been working towards and some of those capabilities will actually come in this community as well. So when we talk about innovations in this area, We are we are bringing together the best of IBM research as well. As we are hoping the community actually uh joints as well and enterprises are already starting to join to bring together the latest of the innovations bringing their applications and the best practices together to unleash that value of the technology in moving the rest of that 80%. And to be able to seamlessly bridge from my legacy environment to the cloud native environment. >>Yeah. And hybrid cloud is gonna be multi cloud really is the backbone and operating system of business and life society. So as these apps start to come on a P i is an integration, all of these things are coming together. So um yeah, this conveyor project and conveyor community looks like a really strong approach. Congratulations. Good >>job bob. >>Yeah, great stuff. Kubernetes, enabling companies is enabling all kinds of value here in the cube. We're bringing it to you with two experts. Uh, James Richard, thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing. Thank you. >>Thank you. >>Okay, cube con and cloud native coverage. I'm john furry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>from around the >>globe it's the cube with >>coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con Europe 2020 >>one virtual >>brought to you by red hat. The cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Kublai khan 21 cloud native gone 21 virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube. We're here with a great segment of an entrepreneur also the creator and maintainer of fluent bit Eduardo Silva who's now the founder of Palihapitiya was a startup. Going to commercialize and have an enterprise grade fluent D influence bit Eduardo. Great to have you on. Thanks for coming on the cube >>during the place for having me here. So I'm pretty happy to share the news about the crew and whenever you want, >>exciting trends, exciting trends happening with C N C f koo Kahne cloud native cloud native a lot of data, a lot of management, a lot of logging, a lot of observe ability, a lot of end user um contributions and enterprise adoption. So let's get into it first by give us a quick update on fluent D anything upcoming to highlight. >>Yeah, well fluent is actually turning two years old right now. So it's the more metric project that we have a lot of management and processing in the market. And we're really happy to see that the sides are project that was started 10 years ago, its adoption. You can see continues growing ecosystem from a planning perspective and companies adopting the technology that that is really great. So it's very overwhelming and actually really happy to take this project and continue working with companies, individuals and and right now what is the position where we are now with through And these are part of the Roma is like one of the things that people is facing not because of the tool because people have every time there has more data, more Metro services the system are scaling up is like about performance, right? And performance is critical if you're slowing down data processing actually you're not getting the data at the right time where you need it right. Nobody's people needs real time query is real time analysis. So from a security perspective we're going to focus a lot on everything that is about performance I would say for this year and maybe the other one, I would say that we won't see many new futures around fluently itself as as a project so we'll be mostly about back texting and performance improvements. >>Yeah, I definitely want to dig in with you on the data and logging challenges around kubernetes especially with and to end workflows and there's the different environments that sits in the middle of. But first before we get there, just take a minute to explain for the folks um not that savvy with fluent bit. What is fluent bit real quick, explain what it is. >>Okay, so I will start with a quick story about this, so when we started flowing the, we envision that at some point I'm talking about six years ago, right, all this IOT train or embedded or h will be available and for that you we got back to heavy right? If you have a constraint environment or you want to process data in a more faster way without all the capabilities at that time we say that he might not be suitable for that. So the thing is okay and it was not longer like a single software piece right? We want to say through in this an ecosystem, right? And as part of the ecosystem we have sck where people can connect applications fluid the but also we say we need like a flu Indie but that could be lightweight and faster. Burundi is reading ruby right? And the critical part in C. But since it's written ruby of course there's some process calls on how do you process the data and how much you can scale? Right. So we said if you're going to dig into embedded or small constrained environment, let's write a similar solution. But in C language so we can optimize a memory, can optimize scenario and all this kind of um needs will be will will be effective, right? And we started to spread called fluent bed and through a bit it's like a nowadays like a lightweight version of Wendy, it has started for the Marilyn knows, but after a few years people from the cloud space, I'm talking about containers, kubernetes, they started to ask for more futures for flowing it because they wanted they have influence, but also they wanted to have flowing better than because of it was lively and nowadays we can see that what fluent established the market and true indeed, we're getting around $2 million dollars every single day. So nowadays the attraction of the break is incredible. And it's mostly used to um want to collect logs from the files from system be and for most of coordinated environment disabled, process all this information on a pen, meta data and solve all the problem of how do I collect my data? How do I make sure that the data has the right context meta data and I'm able to deliver this data. So a central place like a job provider or any kind of storage. >>That's great. And I love the fact that's written C, which kind of gives the, I'll say it more performance on the code. Less overhead, get deeper closer um and people No, no, see it's high performance, quick, quick stats. So how old is the project through a bit, What version are you on? >>Uh, a little bit. It's, I'm not sure it is turning six or seven this year, 96. It's been around >>for a while. >>Yeah, yeah. We just released this this week, one at 73 right. We have done more than 100 releases actually really settled two and it's pretty past sometimes we have releases every 23 weeks. So the operation, the club medical system is quite fast. People once and more future more fixes and they don't want to wait for a couple of months for the next release. They wanted to have the continue image right away to test it out and actually sends away as a project. We worked with most of providers like AWS Microsoft actor google cloud platform, the demon for this fixes and improvements are in a weekly basis. >>You guys got a lot of props, I was checking around on the internet, you guys are getting strong um, reviews on logging for kubernetes with the couple releases ago, you had higher performance improvements for google AWS logged in postgres equal and other environments. Um but the question that I'm getting and I'm hearing from folks is, you know, I have end to end workflows and they've been steady. They've been strong. But as more data comes in and more services are connecting to it from network protocols, two Other cloud services, the complexity of what was once a straight straightforward workflow and to end is impacted by this new data. How do you guys address that? How would you speak to that use case? >>Well, for for us data we have taken approaches. Data for us is agnostic on the way that it comes from but that it comes from and the format that comes from for for example, if you talk about the common uses case that we have now is like data come from different formats. Every single developer use the all looking format come from different channels, TCP file system or another services. So it is very, very different. How do we get this data? And that is a big challenge. Right? How do we take data from different sources, different format and you try to unify this internal and then if you're going to talk for example to less exert let's say you Jason you're going to talk to africa, they have their own binary protocol. So we are kind of the backbone that takes all the data transfer data and try to adapt to the destination expected payload from a technical perspective. Yeah, is really challenging. Is really challenging also that Nowadays, so two years ago people was finding processing, I don't know 500,000 messages per second, But nowadays they won 10, 20 40,000. So prime architecture perspective Yeah, there are many challenges and and I think that the teamwork from the maintaining this and with companies has provided a lot of value, a lot of value. And I think that the biggest proof here is that the adoption like adoption and big adoption, you have more banks reported more enhancement requests. All right. So if I get >>this right, you got different sources of data collection issues. If you look on the front end and then you got some secret sauce with bit fluent, I mean uh inside the kubernetes clusters um and then you deliver it to multiple services and databases and cloud services. That that right. Is that the key? The key value is that is that the key value proposition? Did I get that right with fluent bit? >>Mhm. Yeah, I would say most of the technical implementation when the of the value of the technical implementation, I would say that is towards being the vendor neutral. Right? So when you come, when you go to the market and you go to the talk to bank institution hospital form and if the company right, most of them are facing this concept of bender looking right, they use a Bender database but you have to get married. So they're tooling, right? And I'm not going to mention any inventor name. Right? Actually it's very fun. Well for example, the business model, this company that start with S and ends with swung right? For example is you pay as much money so you pay as much money compared to the data that you ingested. But the default tools in just the whole data. But in reality if you go to the enterprise they say yeah. I mean just in all my data into Splunk or X provider right? But from 100 that I'm interesting, which I'm paying for, I'm just using this service to query at least 20 of the data. So why I mean just in this 80 extra I didn't get it right. That's why I want to send and this is real use case there's this language is really good for where is analyzed the data But they said yeah, 80 of my data is just a five data. I will need it maybe in a couple of months just I want to send it to Amazon history or any kind of other a archive service. So users, the value that says is that I want to have a mentor neutral pipeline which me as a user, I went to this side work went to send data, went to send it and also I can come to my bills. Right? And I think that is the biggest value. So you can go to the market. They will find maybe other tools for logging or tools for Matrix because there's a ton of them. But I think that none of them can say we are gender neutral. Not all of them can offer this flexibility to the use, right? So from a technical language performance but from an end user is being the neutrality. >>Okay. So I have to ask you then here in the C n C F projects that are going on and the community around um um fluent bit, you have to have those kinds of enhancements integrations, for instance, for not only performance improvement, but extensive bility. So enterprises there, they want everything right. They make things very >>complicated. They're very >>complicated infrastructure. So if they want some policy they want to have data ingestion policies or take advantage of no vendor lock in, how is the community responding? How did what's your vision for helping companies now? You've got your new venture and you got the open source project, How does this evolve? How do you see this evolving eduardo? Because there is a need for use cases that don't need all the data, but you need all the data to get some of the data. Right. So it's a you have a new new >>paradigm of >>coding and you want to be dynamic and relevant. What's the how do you see this evolving? >>Yeah. Actually going to give you some spoilers. Right. So some years before report. Yeah. So users has this a lot of they have a lot of problems how to collect the data processing data and send the data. We just told them right, Performance is a continuous improvement, Right? Because you have always more data, more formats, that's fine. But one critical thing that people say, hey, you say, hey, I want to put my business logic in the pipeline. So think about this if you have to embed we are the platform for data. Right? But we also provide capabilities to do data processing because you can grab the data or you can do custom modifications over the data. One thing that we did like a year two years ago is we added this kind of stream processing capabilities, can you taste equal for Kaka? But we have our own sequel engine influence them. So when the data is flowing without having any data banks, any index or anything, we can do data aggregation. You can, you can put some business logic on it and says for all the data that matches this pattern, stand it to a different destination, otherwise send it to caracas plan or elastic. So we have, this is what we have now. Extreme processing capabilities. Now what is the spoiler and what we're going next. Right now there are two major areas. One of them is distributed. Extreme processing right? The capabilities to put this intelligence on the age, on the age I'm referring to for example, a cooper needs note right or constrained environment, right? Communities on the age is something that is going on. There are many companies using that approach but they want to put some intelligence and data processing where the data is being generated. Because there is one problem when you have more data and you want to create the data, you have to wait and to centralize all the data in the database for your service. And there's a legend see right, millions sometimes hours because data needs to be in Mexico. But what about it? To have 100 of notes, but each one is already right, influenced it. Why you don't run the queries there. That is one of the features that we have. And well now talking from the challenges from spoil perspectives, people says, okay, I love this pipeline. I noticed Lambert has a political architecture but the language see it's not my thing, right? I don't want to go and see. Nobody likes see that we are honest about that. And there are many mass words about security or not just nothing, which is true, right? It's really easy to mess up things and see. Right? So, and we said, okay, so now our next level, it's like we're going to provide this year the ability to write your own plug ins in Western webassembly. So with the web is simply interface. You can run your own pregnancy goal, rust or any kind of weapon sending support language and translate that implementation to native. Wasn't that fluent that will understand. So C as a language won't be with one being longer uploaded for you as a developer. As a company that wants to put more business logic into the bike. Well that is one of the things that are coming up and really we already have some docs but they're not ready to show. So maybe we can expect something for us at the end of this year. >>Great stuff by the way, from a c standpoint us, old timers like me used to program and see, and not a lot of C courses being taught, but if you do know see it's very valuable. But again, to your point, the developers are are focused on coding the apps, not so much the underlying. So I think that's that's key. I will like to ask you one final question of water before we wrap up, how do you deploy fluid bid? What's the is it is that you're putting it inside the cluster? Is there is that scripts, What's the what's the architecture real quick? Give us a quick overview of the architecture. >>Okay, so that it's not just for a classroom, you can run it on any machine. Windows, Linux, IBM Yeah, and that doesn't need to be a kubernetes. Classic. Right? When we created to invade Copernicus was quite new at the same time. So if you talk about kubernetes deploys as a demon set at the moment is pretty much a part that runs on every note like an agent. Right? Uh, all you can run necessarily on any kind of machine. Oh and one thing before we were, I just need to mention something that from the spoil it. But because it's just getting, we're having many news these days. Is that fluently used to be mostly for logging right? And influence the specifically project. We've got many people from years ago saying, you know what? I'm losing my agent for logging to a bed but I have my agents for metrics and sometimes this is quite heavy to have multiple agents on your age. So now flowing bed is extending the capabilities to deal with native metrics. Right. The first version will be available about this week in cuba come right. We will be able to process host matrix for application metrics and send them to permit use with open matrix format in a native way. So we extended the political system to be a better citizen with open metrics and in the future also with open telemetry, which is a hot thing that is coming up on this month. >>Everyone loves metrics. That's super important. Having the data Is really, really important as day two operations and get all this stuff is happening. I wanna thank you for coming on and sharing the update and congratulations on. The new venture will keep following you and look good for the big launch but fluent bit looking good. Congratulations. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you so much help governments. >>Okay this is the cubes coverage of Kublai khan 21 cloud Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life at the events extracting the signal from the noise. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>from around the >>globe, it's the >>cube with coverage of Kublai >>khan and cloud Native con, europe 2021 virtual brought to you by red hat. The cloud >>native computing >>foundation and ecosystem partners. Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Yukon 21 cloud native con part of the C n C f s event. This is the cubes continuing coverage. You got a great guest cube alumni entrepreneurs to borrow founder and ceo of up bound. Great to see you remotely too bad. We're not in person. But soon the pandemic Is right around the corner will be post pandemic with searing events are coming back. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on for coop con 21 >>Good, good to be back on the cube, john >>great to see you. You know, I've always loved your career, what you've been doing with that many conversations on the Cuban. Also in person, you're the creative rook and cross plane um, C N C F projects there. Um great venture, really part of this cloud native revolution that's happening, you were early on and the history of your career, but now you're seeing it go mainstream. Let's get into that on this session, because I really want to dig into this across cloud and now get ops is hugely popular. This is kind of what you call day to operate your ongoing, this is the future. This is a new environment. Before we get going, talk about the update on your in what's new with cross plane. >>Uh, So cross plane is growing as you know, it's a multi cloud control plane that essentially lets you uh you can connect it up to all the different infrastructure vendors and lets you manage infrastructure in a consistent way consistent with what, you know, what we do with the tops and and on the kubernetes ap I um and so the community has been growing tremendously. We've just applied for it together, the incubation status at the CNC F and really happy with all the progress around it. It's, it's such an amazing journey we've been on with cross plane, >>you know, it's funny you watch all the, the evolution of the cloud in the early days, it was, what is cloud, the big debate, people define what cloud is that? It was Oh yeah, clouds great. You can, you know, start up cloud developers, Greenfield, then it became enterprise cloud around 2015. Now, you know, today the cloud is not so much, you know, moving to the cloud as it was in 2015, it's like scaling and cloud, that is true enterprise grade. Um real serious operational security impacts multiple resources and this is where cross cloud comes in or, or, you know, I see hybrid clouds operating model, everyone has agreed on that. That's the architecture, but that also brings in assumes multiple clouds, right? This is where the new kind of control plane or you guys called cross cloud management kicks in. This is an enterprise priority. From what I can see. Do you agree with that? Can you share your commentary on how much our enterprises of prioritizing cross cloud management? Because that seems to be the Hot one. What's your take on us? >>Yeah, the way, the way we see it is that and we see this with customers and we see those folks in the community. Almost every enterprise we talked to is modernizing their I. T. You know, that, as you said, they're not going to cloud, they're already in cloud, but they're doing so many more things to kind of accelerate the pace of innovation and reduce the time for them to ship applications, which is now a fundamental part or fundamental measure uh of their success. Right. And so what we're seeing is that they're organizing into platform teams internally, and these teams are the ones that own the cloud accounts, they're the ones that are responsible for deploying infrastructure cross, whether it's cross cloud or hybrid cloud. Um and these teams are essentially organizing to build what looks like an internal platform and a key ingredient of this. Internal platform is a control plane and this is what enables getups. You see kubernetes as a control plane, that's in there, um it's it's the piece that's allowing them to actually connect to different clouds. It's the piece that's allowing them to manage their infrastructure, whether it's on premise or in cloud, it's the thing that's allowing them to do day to operations, all of that's happening in an interesting way. It's, it's happening within the enterprise. It is their own platform and it layers on top of the back and infrastructure that they're using, whether it's cloud providers or hybrid, you know, infrastructure, it's happening in a way that's enterprise from the enterprise and going out to the vendors, which is a little different model than we've seen in the past. And that's where multi cloud tends to come in and multi vendor or heterogeneity in general. Uh we see that very, very commonly in in the enterprise, >>you know, I think you're exactly right. That's classic market evolution in computer industry, you know, multi multi vendors, ultimately when things start to settle in on the massive growth. Hybrid cloud, however, is really kind of where the action is today. And you can see people struggling and innovating around the area of continuous operations and as you can use development develops concept. But the problem is that as they realize, well stuffs in production, it's in the public cloud, its on premises, you know, this, the operational piece starts to rear its head and we gotta fix that. And then they connect the dots a saying, if multi cloud is coming, which people generally agree upon, then they go, if we don't clean this up, we're gonna be screwed. That's generally the consensus that I can that I hear from people so explain, explain with the rise of multi cloud what cross plane is, I mean, what is cross playing about? Give us an overview around this. >>So, I mean there's a lot of ways to describe this, but we see it as like the rise of platform engineering, there's a lot happening around people building their own platforms that layer on top of cloud, which happens to also be multi vendor and multi cloud. So when you're building a platform in an enterprise that can talk to amazon that can talk to Microsoft Azure that can talk to your on premise infrastructure, whether it's VM ware or open shift, you need a, you need a layer that is able to orchestrate and deploy and manage and deal with day to operations, Right. That that is an important piece. It's the piece that is, you know, the way you can enforce your policies, you can set out your controls, whether your compliance, do your compliance and governance and essentially sell sell served uh this to your developers so that they can actually get productive and deploy applications on on this platform. And we see cross plane and what what Kubernetes has started with a control plane as a critical approach in this, in this new platform. In fact, the approach that's kind of pioneered by kubernetes with the kubernetes Api and control plane is now becoming the dominant way of managing infrastructure and deploying applications on it. This is you hear this in different ways, like this is why get off has become popular. Get Office is a really great thing. It's a way to essentially let you manage infrastructure through, you know, configuration that's stored in GIT repositories. But the thing that it connects to is a control plane that's going to make it happen, right? And we see that with kubernetes uh predominantly with kubernetes. Right. And so what cross plane does is lets you extend the getups approach and the management approach that's pioneered by the kubernetes community to the entire surface area of cloud. So not only can you deploy your containers using get apps, you can actually manage through the tops VMS server lists, databases and cloud Hybrid environments. Multi cloud environments. You know, even, you know, your load balances that are on premise could be managed through tops anything that speaks in a p I could be managed to get off if you go through a project like cross plane. Now, that part is that part is where we're seeing the most success right now. We're seeing a lot of people that are adopting these approaches to managing infrastructure while they're building their platforms and they're pulling in cross plains, we're seeing massive end user adoption of cross plane right >>now. I want to get into this. I want to get this impact of the control playing but before we get there I want a real quick while I got you an expert. I know this coupon. You don't need to explain what get upset. Everyone knows what that is. But for the folks that aren't aren't aren't in the community, I want to grab the sound bite if you don't mind. Could you define what is getups? >>Uh huh. So so get up is somewhat of a marketing term. Uh but the way I interpreted is essentially storing your configuration in a git repository. Are you using, you know, uh versioning techniques that are pioneered to manage code, right? Whether using Pr flows, storing things and get doing the collaboration of what changes happen in get and then having that be essentially mirrored to uh control plane that is able to implement the declarative configuration that you've specified. So a good example of this is if you wanted to deploy, say, you know, start up a cluster of kubernetes cluster in the cloud vendor and then run applications on it and then configure it to connect to databases. You can describe your intent and store it and get collaborate with your team members on it, make sure it's all correct. And then through getups pipeline, you're able to take those, you know, essentially, configuration and then apply it via control plane onto your vendor of choice. Right? That's that's the style. It's great because, you know, get is a great place to store configuration. It's a great place to collaborate. There are amazing tools around pr flows, pull request flows. They're amazing tools for audit ability and versioning and you get to leverage all of those when you are deploying infrastructure that runs your entire >>enterprise. Yeah. And I would also add to that. I I explain it simply for people that aren't in the weeds on the tech is think of it like a QA for srs it's like you need to manage the infrastructure because we're talking about devops infrastructure as code, we're programming infrastructure. So you've got to have some sort of process. And I think this brings up my next point about this control plane, because you mentioned um Cross plans has these nice has this nice uh program to it. Most people write their own code, they'll like they'll they'll like do homegrown work to create in their platform, mainly because there's gaps in there. Can you comment on how you guys are different than someone saying? I'm just gonna write my own code and do my own thing, my own platform team. I don't need cosplaying what I need you for. I'm gonna do it myself. >>So what we see predominantly is folks that are doing get ops or infrastructure as code and setting up pipelines for their compute workloads and specifically for containers. Right. And then, like you said, they're actually writing homegrown scripts or doing Tara forum or doing other things that are on the side to deploy. The other parts, uh including, you know, state full workloads or things that are running across a I M L on premise, hybrid, all of that stuff is done organically on the side of this beautiful path. Forget ops right. What we're doing with cross plane is essentially letting you bring all of the things that you're managing organically into the same pipelines with get offs. So you're able to actually normalize on a single approach for management for orchestration of infrastructure and applications. So you're you're able to, you know, get rid of your custom scripts and use a P I. S to define what your developers should do. You're able to, you know, use the mechanisms that are in the tools that are available to you forget ups and for the in the company's ecosystem to manage the entire surface area of, you know, infrastructure that you're managing within the enterprise in a consistent way. Right? That's where cross money comes in cross plane enables you to extend the control plane of kubernetes to manage everything that's offered by amazon and Microsoft and google and VM ware and open shift and red hat, Everything else can become falls into the same orchestrator, the same control plane that's managing it all and you can access it and give it to your developers in a safe way using, you know, get ups like approaches. >>You know, I've heard horror stories where people pushed new codes, trivial stuff and then all of a sudden breaks because um, code or script was written for a different purpose, but the impact was created into a small little dependency, but it's essentially the human error aspect of software. It's like, well we didn't really kind of see that coming, but at that point that script worked. Now this new thing, something trivial and easy breaks because and then it crashes. This is the kind of day to operations >>that very amounting >>about. Is that right? >>That's that's very much that's very much the case. And we see a lot of people kind of normalizing on templates and scripts, you know, where it's like, okay, you want to deploy database, here's a we'll open a ticket. Uh, and then some human runs, uh, you know, a template, a Terror form template, etcetera, that deploys a script and then shuttle credentials back to the developers over email or over slack and then they plug them into their manifest to deploy on through getups, pipelines. That there's a lot of interesting things that are happening and what we we want to do is to prevent the human error. To put the guard rails in place is essentially arrive at a consistent approach for all of it. Your legacy workloads, your multi cloud workloads, your hybrid workloads, your the little system that's sitting on the side. You can, you can do, you can essentially normalize on using a single approach to manage all of it. One that is safe, that you can give to developers directly there. It has all the guardrails in place, has policy and controls factored in and is exposed through an api that's the part that I think is uh, you know, leads to the largest, most scalable platforms in the world. >>You know, I think that's just natural evolution to us as your customers and enterprises get visibility on the operational standards like, Okay, let's lock that input. The guard rails down. Makes a lot of sense. I gotta ask you on the enterprise adoption pieces, something that we've been covering on silicon angle on the cube this year is looking at the mainstream adoption of kubernetes and whatnot and the rest of the cloud native. It's certainly with Covid, it's accelerated everything. How is the enterprise adoption of cross plane changing? Uh is a game that kind of momentum you expected when you started the project a few years ago? >>Um We're very pleasantly surprised by the adoption, especially in the last six months since we declared cross plane one point. Oh, it has reached a maturity level now that it's actually in Fortune 100 massive production deployments in Fortune 100 companies. Um This is why we're actually, you know, taking to the next level of C N C F, we're also proud of the ecosystem convergence on it, so we're seeing the cloud providers, working with all of them on ensuring that Crossman can address their infrastructure and we're seeing main, the community rally around us. Uh We think the ecosystem part is super interesting for cross money, as you can imagine having an orchestrator control plane that's able to, you know, address the entire surface area of infrastructure offered by all these different vendors requires the vendors to be involved. Right? Uh and so both, uh, it's a two sided network. Both the ecosystem, you know, adoption and the end user adoption are important for cross plane and we're seeing like massive traction on both right >>now. That's awesome. Traditionally, the the adoption arises that users want more things actually enterprise. They they want everything every nook and cranny, they want every feature, they want every integration. I mean they prioritize but, but as you get more, it's not just like a consumer product, although it is cloud native and you've got that, but there's, there's certain things that are table stakes and then there's innovation, but they really want the well known integrations, um, and support and so forth. How is cross playing in the community responding to the challenges as you guys get more popular and as the standards become clear around multi cloud? >>Yeah, I mean, this is the beauty of open source. I mean, we're seeing a lot of different folks contributing to open source. The majority of contributors right now to cross plane are outside of a pound. The company that started cross plane and essentially donated C N C. F. We're seeing folks that are coming in and adding the resources that they are needing, um, or adding features, really significant features to the code base and improving, which is, you know, again, it's the network effect around open source and it's just unbelievable to see and, and I'm able to see it happen and happen so quickly around the project. >>That's awesome. Well something great to have you on, your always great to talk to your super smart, we've had many great conversations in person on camera on the cube. Now, remote CNC F is again um doing such a great job with the um, the open source and now with Coop Con and cloud, Native Con, the open hybrid cloud and now cross cloud, multi cloud, whatever you wanna call it, it's happening. So I gotta ask you with respect to kubernetes because you know, we were all having beers and open stack that time we write, cooper is going to be hot, I think how many years ago that was, um I think you are kind of hanging around with me and robert and others. Um, Kubernetes was just an idea it was developing. Now it's obviously mainstream. The question that I get a lot now is how do I manage and deploy kubernetes in an open hybrid cloud to take advantage of the current state of the art, Open software and commercial opportunities and be positioned to take advantage of multi cloud. In other words, they want the future of multi cloud, but they've got to address the open hybrid cloud. So how do I do that? What's your what's your advice? >>You know, honestly, uh reflecting on the success of kubernetes, I I have a you know, maybe a controversial answer to your question. >>I think >>Kubernetes will be remembered for its control plane and its ability to manage infrastructure and applications in a general way, and not for the fact that it's a container orchestrator In 10 years, we'll probably look at kubernetes and say it's true superpower is the fact that it revolutionized how we manage infrastructure and applications using this declarative approach, using this control plane approach uh to management. And the fact that it's managing the fact that it started out with just containers is well, we'll probably be a historical thing. Uh so so so in some ways, you know, to kind of to kind of go back to your question, I'd say yes. I think kubernetes is reached mainstream in the in the container space, but we now have two uncontained, arise it and use it for management, managing infrastructure everywhere in a multi cloud and a you know, in a hybrid environment as well. >>Well, I mean that's a great point. First, I don't think that's radical. I'm on the record years ago saying that I saw it as the TCP I P moment for cloud where you have interoperability and what you're getting and I think that's so interesting right now and I think everyone is kind of, it's the hidden secrets kind of like the land grab, everyone's trying to go for us. Customers just want a provision and manage cloud infrastructure and program it with applications. I mean just think about that general basic concept. Right? I want to provision, I don't want to have to have meetings, no waterfall know that. I want to be agile. Yeah, I want operation, I want security, I want all that big 10. That's kind of where the puck is going >>very much. Self, self service is a really critical part and the part that um is part of the kubernetes uh kind of design is you developers just want a database or they wanna cash to run their application alongside their application. They don't really need to understand all the security details and networking and be pcs and everything else. And so if you give them an A. P. I just like kubernetes does that tells them. Okay, look, if you want a pot or if you want a database or if you want to cash, here's the A. P. I use, use whatever framework you want, use any language you want. And then we've got all the guardrails built in behind the A. P. I line, just, you know, through getups or not deploy this thing, provision it and then the control plane takes care of the rest. That's the, that's the path we're on as an industry, >>whatever you wanna call it, getups, cross cloud, it's unlimited cloud resource at scale. That's what customers want to do. The markets evolving superfast tons of opportunity for entrepreneurs, tons of evidence for enterprises who are themselves innovating. Again, another big theme here. I'll give you the final word around this user generated open source paradigm, what they've always been involvement now, more than ever, you start to see that, I don't know, maybe second generation, maybe third generation end user inside companies contributing to projects and driving this. This is an interesting dynamic. No one's really reporting this, your thoughts on this end user driven projects. >>We're seeing, we're seeing a lot of end users get involved in projects like cross plane. I mean, it's amazing. It's like companies that are, you know, directionally, they're all, you know, when they're modernizing, they're all heading down about that's open source or even towards cloud native projects. Right. And so it's what we see is they typically get involved initially by just asking questions and, you know, reporting issues and asking for features. And then within within a few months you see actual like meaningful contributions come in two projects. Right. And so I mean there's nothing speaks uh, nothing, nothing says their work. You know, they're committed more than just submitting a pull request where they've spent hours weeks making changes to a project. Right. And and that's happening across the entire, you know, ecosystem around cloud Native. It's, it's what makes it so powerful, >>awesome. But some great to have this conversation. Great insights. Thanks for sharing the update on cross plane and your vision around this, you know, provisioning new infrastructure, having this control, universal control plan. I think this is where everyone is talking about having that value and the scale sets up automation. You know, it just brings everything to the next, next gen, next level of capability. So I appreciate taking the time. Thanks for coming in. >>Thanks john Yeah, good. Good to be back on the, on the cube. >>Great to see you. Okay. This is the Cube coverage of coop con 21 virtual cloud native Khanum jaan for your host with the cube. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>from around the globe. It's >>the cube >>with coverage of >>Kublai khan and >>Cloud Native Con, Europe 2021 virtual brought >>to you by red hat, >>the cloud Native >>Computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Hello, welcome back to the cubes coverage of Kublai khan. Cloud Native Con 2021 part of the CNC. S continuing cube partnership virtual here because we're not in person soon, we'll be out of the pandemic and hopefully in person for the next event. I'm john for your host of the key. We're here with ricardo. Roach computing engineers sir. In CUBA. I'm not great to see you ricardo. Thanks for remote ng in all the way across the world. Thanks for coming in. >>Hello, Pleasure. Happy to be here. >>I saw your talk with Priyanka on linkedin and all around the web. Great stuff as always, you guys do great work over there at cern. Talk about what's going on with you and the two speaking sessions you have it coop gone pretty exciting news and exciting sessions happening here. So take us through the sessions. >>Yeah. So actually the two sessions are kind of uh showing the two types of things we do with kubernetes. We we are doing we have a lot of uh services moving to kubernetes, but the first one is more on the services we have in the house. So certain is known for having a lot of data and requests, requiring a lot of computing capacity to analyze all this data. But actually we have also very large community and we have a lot of users and people interested in the stuff we do. So the first question will actually show how we've been uh migrating our group of infrastructure into the into communities and in this case actually open shift. And uh the challenge there is to to run a very large amount of uh global websites on coordinators. Uh we run more than 1000 websites and there will be a demonstration on how we do all the management of the website um life cycle, including upgrading and deploying new new websites and an operator that was developed for this purpose. And then more on the other side will give with a colleague also talk about machine learning. Machine learning has been a big topic for us. A lot of our workloads are migrating to accelerators and can benefit a lot from machine learning. So we're giving a talk about a new service that we've deployed on top of Cuban areas where we try to manage to uh lifecycle of machine learning workloads from data preparation all the way to serving the bottles, also exploring the communities features and integrating accelerators and a lot of accelerators. >>So one part of the one session, it's a large scale deployment kubernetes key to there and now the machine learning essentially service for other people to use that. Right? Like take me through the first large scale deployment. What's the key innovation there in your opinion? >>Yeah, I think compared to the infrastructure we had before, is this notion that we can develop an operator that will uh, manage resource, in this case a website. And this is uh, something that is not always obvious when people start with kubernetes, it's not just an orchestra, it's really the ap and the capability of managing a huge amount of resources, including custom resources. So the possibility to develop this operator and then uh, manage the lifecycle of uh, something that was defined in the house and that fits our needs. Uh, There are challenges there because we have a large amount of websites and uh, they can be pretty active. Uh, we also have to some scaling issues on the storage that serves these these websites and we'll give some details uh during the talk as well, >>so kubernetes storage, this is all kind of under the covers, making this easier. Um and the machine learning, it plays nicely in that what if you take us for the machine learning use case, what's going on there, wow, what was the discovery, How did you guys put that together? What's the key elements there? >>Right, so the main challenge there has been um that machine learning is is quite popular but it's quite spread as well, so we have multiple groups focusing on this, but there's no obvious way to centralize not only the resource usage and make it more efficient, but also centralize the knowledge of how these procedures can be done. So what we are trying to do is just offer a service to all our users where we help them with infrastructure so that they don't have to focus on that and they could focus just on their workloads and we do everything from exposing the data systems that we have in the house so that they can do access to the data and data preparation and then doing um some iteration using notebooks and then doing distributed training with potentially large amount of gps and that storage and serving up the models and all of this is uh is managed with the coordinates cluster underneath. Uh We had a lot of knowledge of how to handle kubernetes and uh all the features that everyone likes scalability. The reliability out of scaling is very important for this type of workload. This is, this is key. >>Yeah, it's interesting to see how kubernetes is maturing, um congratulations on the projects. Um they're going to probably continue to scale. Remember this reminds me of when I was uh you know coming into the business in the 98 late eighties early nineties with TCP I. P. And the S. I. Model, you saw the standards evolve and get settled in and then boom innovation everywhere. And that took about a year to digest state and scale up. It's happening much faster now with kubernetes I have to ask you um what's your experience with the question that people are looking to get answered? Which is as kubernetes goes, the next generation of the next step? Um People want to integrate. So how is kubernetes exposing a. P. I. S. To say integration points for tools and other things? Can you share your experience and where this is going, what's happening now and where it goes? Because we know there's no debate. People like the kubernetes aspect of it, but now it's integration is the conversation. Can you share your thoughts on that? >>I can try. Uh So it's uh I would say it's a moving target, but I would say the fact that there's such a rich ecosystem around kubernetes with all the cloud, David projects, uh it's it's uh like a real proof that the popularity of the A. P. I. And this is also something that we after we had the first step of uh deploying and understanding kubernetes, we started seeing the potential that it's not reaching only the infrastructure itself, it's reaching all the layers, all the stack that we support in house and premises. And also it's opening up uh doors to easily scale into external resources as as well. So what we've been trying to tell our users is to rely on these integrations as much as possible. So this means like the application lifecycle being managed with things like Helmand getups, but also like the monitoring being managed with Prometheus and once you're happy with your deployment in house we have ways to scale out to external resources including public clouds. And this is really like see I don't know a proof that all these A. P. I. S are not only popular but incredibly useful because there's such a rich ecosystem around it. >>So talk about the role of data in this obviously machine learning pieces something that everyone is interested in as you get infrastructure as code and devops um and def sec ops as everything's shifting left. I love that, love that narrative day to our priests. All this is all proving mature, mature ization. Um data is critical. Right? So now you get real time information, real time data. The expectations for the apps is to integrate the data. What's your view on how this is progressing from your standpoint because machine learning and you mentioned you know acceleration or being part of another system. Cashing has always done that would say databases. Right. So you've got now is databases get slower, caches are getting faster now they're all the ones so it's all changing. So what's your thoughts on this next level data equation into kubernetes? Because you know stateless is cool but now you've got state issues. >>Yeah so uh yeah we we've always had huge needs for for data we store and I I think we are over half an exhibit of data available on the premises but we we kind of have our own storage systems which are external and that's for for like the physics data, the raw data and one particular charity that we had with our workloads until recently is that we we call them embarrassing parallel in the sense that they don't really need uh very tight connectivity between the different workloads. So if it's people always say tens of thousands of jobs to do some analysis, they're actually quite independent, they will produce a lot more data but we can store them independently. Machine learning is is posing a challenge in the sense that this is a training tends to be a lot more interconnected. Um so it can be a benefit from from um systems that we are not so familiar with. So for us it's it's maybe not so much the cashing layers themselves is really understanding how our infrastructure needs to evolve on premises to support this kind of workloads. We had some smallish uh more high performance computing clusters with things like infinite and for low latency. But this is not the bulk of our workloads. This is not what we are experts on these days. This is the transition we are doing towards uh supporting this machine learning workers >>um just as a reference for the folks watching you mentioned embarrassing parallel and that's a quote that you I read on your certain tech blog. So if you go to tech blog dot web dot search dot ch or just search cern tech blog, you'll see the post there um and good stuff there and in there you go, you lay out a bunch of other things too where you start to see the deployment services and customer resource definitions being part of this, is it going to get to the point where automation is a bigger part of the cluster management setting stuff up quicker. Um As you look at some of the innovations you're doing with machines and Coubertin databases and thousands of other point things that you're working on there, I mean I know you've got a lot going on there, it's in the post but um you know, we don't want to have the problem of it's so hard to stand up and manage and this is what people want to make simpler. How do you how do you answer that when people say say we want to make it easier? >>Yeah. So uh for us it's it's really automate everything and up to now it has been automate the deployment in the kubernetes clusters right now we are looking at automating the kubernetes clusters themselves. So there's some really interesting projects, uh So people are used to using things like terra form to manage the deployment of clusters, but there are some projects like cross playing, for example, that allows us to have the clusters themselves being resources within kubernetes. Uh and this is something we are exploring quite a bit. Uh This allows us to also abstract the kubernetes clusters themselves uh as uh as carbonated resources. So this this idea of having a central cluster that will manage a much larger infrastructure. So this is something that we're exploring the getups part is really key for us to, it's something that eases the transition from from from people that are used already to manage large scale systems but are not necessarily experts on core NATO's. Uh they see that there's an easier past there if they if they can be introduced slowly through through the centralized configuration. >>You know, you mentioned cross plane, I had some on earlier, he's awesome dude, great guy and I was smiling because you know I still have you know flashbacks and trigger episodes from the Hadoop world, you know when it was such so promising that technology but it was just so hard to stand up and managed to be like really an expert to do that. And I think you mentioned cross plane, this comes up to the whole operator notion of operating the clusters, right? So you know, this comes back down to provisioning and managing the infrastructure, which is, you know, we all know is key, right? But when you start getting into multi cloud and multiple environments, that's where it becomes challenging. And I think I like what they're doing is that something that's on your mind to around hybrid and multi cloud? Can you share your thoughts on that whole trajectory? >>Absolutely. So I actually gave an internal seminar just last week describing what we've been playing with in this area and I showed some demo of using cross plane to manage clusters on premises but also manage clusters running on public clouds. A. W. S. Uh google cloud in nature and it's really like the goal there. There are many reasons we we want to explore external resources. We are kind of used to this because we have a lot of sites around the world that collaborate with us, but specifically for public clouds. Uh there are some some motivations there. The first one is this idea that we have periodic load spikes. So we knew we have international conferences, the number of analysis and job requests goes up quite a bit, so we need to be able to like scale on demand for short periods instead of over provisioning this uh in house. The second one is again coming back to machine learning this idea of accelerators. We have a lot of Cpus, we have a lot less gPS uh so it would be nice to go on fish uh for those in the public clouds. And then there's also other accelerators that are quite interesting, like CPUs and I p u s that will definitely play a role and we probably, or maybe we will never have among premises, will only be able to to use them externally. So in that, in that respect, actually coming back to your previous question, this idea of storage then becomes quite important. So what we've been playing with is not only managing this external cluster centrally, but also managing the wall infrastructure from a central place. So this means uh, making all the clusters, whatever they are look very, very much the same, including like the monitoring and the aggregation of the monitoring centrally. And then as we talked about storage, this idea of having local storage that that will be allow us to do really quick software distribution but also access to the data, >>what you guys are doing as we say, cool. And relevant projects. I mean you got the large scale deployments and the machine learning to really kind of accelerate which will drive a lot of adoption in terms of automation. And as that kicks in when you got to get the foundational work done, I see that clearly the right trajectory, you know, reminds me ricardo, um you know, again not do a little history lesson here, but you know, back when network protocols were moving from proprietary S N A for IBM deck net for digital back in the history the old days the os I Open Systems Interconnect Standard stack was evolving and you know when TCP I P came around that really opened up this interoperability, right? And SAM and I were talking about this kind of cross cloud connections or inter clouding as lou lou tucker. And I talked that open stack in 2013 about inter networking or interconnections and it's about integration and interoperability. This is like the next gen conversation that kubernetes is having. So as you get to scale up which is happening very fast as you get machine learning which can handle data and enable modern applications really it's connecting networks and connecting systems together. This is a huge architectural innovation direction. Could you share your reaction to that? >>Yeah. So actually we are starting the easy way, I would say we are starting with the workloads that are loosely coupled that we don't necessarily have to have this uh tighten inter connectivity between the different deployments, I would say that this is this is already giving us a lot because our like the bulk of our workloads are this kind of batch, embarrassing parallel, uh and we are also doing like co location when we have large workloads that made this kind of uh close inter connectivity then we kind of co locate them in the same deployment, same clouds in region. Um I think like what you describe of having cross clouds interconnectivity, this will be like a huge topic. It is already, I would say so we started investigating a lot of service measure options to try to learn what we can gain from it. There is clearly a benefit for managing services but there will be definitely also potential to allow us to kind of more easily scale out across regions. There's we've seen this by using the public cloud. Some things that we found is for example, this idea of infinite, infinite capacity which is kind of sometimes uh it feels kind of like that even at the scale we have for Cpus But when you start using accelerators, Yeah, you start negotiating like maybe use multiple regions because there's not enough capacity in a single region and you start having to talk to the cloud providers to negotiate this. And this makes the deployments more complicated of course. So this, this interconnectivity between regions and clouds will be a big thing. >>And, and again, low hanging fruit is just a kind of existing market but has thrown the vision out there mainly to kind of talk about what what we're seeing which is the world's are distributed computer. And if you have the standards, good things happen. Open systems, open innovating in the open really could make a big difference is going to be the difference between real value for the society of global society or are we going to get into the silo world? So I think the choice is the industry and I think, you know, Cern and C and C. F and Lennox Foundation and all the companies that are investing in open really is a key inflection point for us right now. So congratulations. Thanks for coming on the cube. Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, Ricardo, rocha computing engineer cern here in the cube coverage of the CN Cf cube con cloud, native con europe. I'm john for your host of the cube. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>from around the >>globe. It's the >>cube with coverage of Kublai >>Khan and Cloud Native Con Europe 2021 >>virtual brought to >>you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and ecosystem partners. Hello, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 Cloud Native Con 21 Virtual, I'm John Ferrier Host of the Cube. We're here with a great gas to break down one of the hottest trends going on in the industry and certainly around cloud native as this new modern architecture is evolving so fast. Richard Hartman, director of community at Griffon, a lab's involved with Prometheus as well um, expert and fun to have on and also is going to share a lot here. Richard, thanks for coming. I appreciate it. >>Thank you >>know, we were chatting before we came on camera about the human's ability to to handle all this new shift uh and the and the future of observe ability is what everyone has been talking about. But you know, some say the reserve abilities, just network management was just different, you know, scale Okay, I can buy that, but it's got a lot more than that. It involves data involves a new architecture, new levels of scale that cloud native has brought to the table that everyone is agreeing on. It scales their new capabilities, thus setting up new architectures, new expectations and new experiences are all happening. Take us through the future of observe ability. >>Mhm. Yes, so um 11 of the things which many people find when they onboard themselves onto the cloud native space is um you can scale along different and new axis, which you couldn't scale along before, uh which is great. Of course, it enables growth, it enables different operating models, it enables you to choose different or more modern engineering trade offs, like the underlying problems are still the same, but you just slice and dice your problems and compartmentalize your services differently. But the problem is um it becomes more spread out and the more classic tooling tends to be built for those more classic um setups and architectures as your architecture becomes more malleable and as you can can choose and pick how to grow it along with which access a lot more directly and you have to um that limits the ability of the humans actually operating that system to understand what is truly going on. Um Obviously everyone is is fully fully all in on A. I. M. L. And all those things. But one of the dirty secrets is you will keep needing domain specific experts who know what they're doing and what that thing should look like, what should be working hard to be working. But enable those people to actually to actually understand the current state of the system and compare this to the desired state of the system. Is highly nontrivial in particular, once you have not machine lifetimes of month or years which he had before, which came down to two sometimes hours and when you go to Microsoft to surveillance and such sometimes even into sub seconds. So a lot of this is about enabling this, this this higher volume of data, this higher scale of data, this higher cardinality of what what you actually attach as metadata on your data and then still be able to carry all this and makes sense of it at scale and at speed because if you just toss it into a data lake and do better analysis like half a day later no one cares about it anymore. It needs to be life it needs or at least the largest part of it needs to be life. You need to be able to alert right now if something is imminently customer facing. >>Well, that's awesome. I love totally agree this new observe ability horizontally scalable, more surface area, more axes, as you point out, changes the data equation on the automation plays a big role in mention machine learning and ai great, great grounds for that. I gotta ask you just well before we move on to the next topic around this is that the most people that come from the old world with the tooling and come from that old school vendor mentality or old soup architecture, old school architecture tend to kind of throw stones at the future and say, well the economics are all wrong and the performance metrics. So I want to ask you so I assume that we believe we do believe because assume that's going to happen. What is the economic picture? What's the impact that people are missing? When you look at the benefits of what this system is going to enable the impact? Specifically whether it's economics, productivity, efficient code, what are some of the things that maybe the VCS or other people in the naysayers side? Old school will, will throw stones at what's the, what's the big upside here? >>Mhm. So this will not be true for everyone and there will still be certain situations where it makes sense to choose different sets of of trade offs, but most everyone will be moving into the cloud for for convenience and speed reasons. And I'm deliberately not saying cost reasons. Um the reason being um usually or in the past you had simply different standard service delineations and all of the proserve, the consulting your hiring pool was all aligned with this old type of service delineation, which used to be a physical machine or a service or maybe even a service and you had a hot standby or something. If we, if we got like really a hugely respect from the same things still need to operate under laying what you do. But as we grow as an industry, more of more of this is commoditized and same as we commoditize service and storage network. We commoditized actually running off that machine and with service and such go even further. Um so it's not so much about about this fundamentally changing how it's built. It's just that a larger or a previously thing which was part of your value at and of what you did in your core is now just off the shelf infrastructure which you just by as much as you need again at certain scales and for certain specific use cases, this will not be true for the foreseeable future, but most everyone um will be moving there simply because where they actually add value and the people they can hire for and who are interested in that type of problem. I just mean that it's a lot more more sensical to to choose this different delineation but it's not cheaper >>and the commoditization and disintermediation is definitely happening, totally agree. And the complexity that's gonna be abstracted away with software is novell and it's also systematic. There's just it's new and there's some systems involved, so great insight there. I totally agree with you. The disruption is happening majority of almost all areas, so in all verticals and all industries, so so great point. I think this is where I think everyone's so excited and some people are paranoid actually frankly, but we cover that in depth on the Cuban other segments. But great point. We'll get back to what you're where you're spending your time right now. Um You're spending a lot of time on open metrics. What is that enabling take us through that? >>So um the super quick history of Prometheus, of course, we need that for open metrics. Promises was actually created in 2012. Um and the wire format which he used to in the exposition format, which he used to transport metrics into Prometheus is stable since 2014. Um But there is a large problem here. Um It carries the promise his name and a lot of competing projects and a lot of competing vendors of course there are vendors which compete with just the project. Um It's simply refused to to to take anything in which carried the promise his name. Of course, this doesn't align with their food um strategy, which they ran back then. So um together with scenes, the f we decided to just have a new different name for just that wire format for the underlying data model for everything which you need to make one complete exposition or a bunch of expositions towards towards permissions. So that's it at the corn, that's been ongoing since 2000 and 15 16 something. Um But there's also changes on the one hand, there is a super careful, a super super careful um Clean up and backwards compatible cleanup of a few things which the permit this exposition former serious here for didn't get right. But also we enable two features within this and as permitted chose open metrics as its official format. We also uplift committees and varying both heads. Obviously it's easier to get the synchronization. Um Ex employers stand out which is a completely new, at least outside of certain large search companies google. Um Who who used who use ex employers to do something different with with their traces. Um it was in 2017 when they told me that for them searching for traces didn't scale by labels. Uh and at that point I wanted to have both. I wanted to have traces and logs also with the same label set as permitting system. But when they tell you searching doesn't scale like they tell you you better listen. So uh the thing is this you have your index where you store all your data or your where you have the reference to enter your database and you have these label sets and they are super efficient and and quite powerful when compared to more traditional systems but they still carry a cost and that cost becomes non trivial at scale. So instead of storing the same labels for your metrics and your logs and your traces, the idea is to just store an I. D. For your trace which is super lightweight and it's literally just one idea. So your index is super tiny. Um And then you touch this information to your logs to your metrics and in the meantime also two year to year logs. Um So you know already that trace has certain properties because historically you have this needle estate problem. You have endless amounts of traces and you need to figure out what are the useful are they are the judicial and interesting aero state highlight and see some error occurring whatever if that information is already attached to your other signals. That's a lot easier. Of course. You see you're highlighting see bucket and you see a trace ID which is for that high latency bucket. So going into that trace, I already know it is a highlight and see trace for for a service which has a high latency, it has visited that labor. It was running this in that context, blah blah blah blah blah. Same for logs. There is an error. There is an exception, maybe a security breach, what have you and I can jump directly into a trace and I have all this mental context and the most expensive part is the humans. So enabling that human to not need to break mental uh train of thought to just jump directly from all the established state which they already have here in debugging just right into the trace, went back and just see why that thing behave that way. It's super powerful and it's also a lot cheaper to store this on the back and a four year traces which in our case internally we just run at 100% something. We do not throw data way, which means you don't have the super interesting thing. And by the way the trace just doesn't exist for us a good job. And that's the one thing to to from day one this intent to to marry those three pillars more closely. The other thing is by having a true lingua franca. It gave that concept of of of promises compatibility on the wire, its own name and it's its own distinct concept. And that is something which a lot of people simply attached to. So just by having that name, allow the completely different conversation over the last half decade or so and to close >>them close it >>up and to close that point because I come from the network, from the networking space and, and basically I T f r f C s are the currency within the networking space and how you force your vendors to support something, which is why I brought open metrics into the I. D. F. To to give it an official stamp of approval in Rfc number which is currently hopefully successful. Um So all of a sudden you can slip this into your tender and just tell your vendor, ex wife said okay, you need to support this. But I've seen all of a sudden by contract they're bound to to support communities native. So >>I support that Rfc yet or no, is that still coming? >>I, so at the last uh TF meeting, which was virtual, obviously I presented everything to the L. A W G. Um there was very good feedback. Um they want to adopt it as an informational uh I. D. Reason being it is most or it is a documentation of an already widely existed standard. So it gets different bits and pieces in the heather. Um Currently I'm waiting for a few rounds of feedback on specific wording how to make it more clear and such. Um looking >>good. It's looking good. >>Oh yes while presenting it. They actually told me that I have a conference with promises and performance. Well >>that's how you get things done in the old school internet. That's the way it was talking to Vince serving all of my friends and that generation we grew up, I mean I was telling a story on the clubhouse, just random that I grew up in the era. We used to pirate software used to deal software back in the old days. Pre open source. This is how things get done. So I gotta ask you the impact question. The, the deal with open metrics potentially could disrupt all those startups. So what, how does this impact all these stars because everyone is jockeying for land grabbing the observe ability space? Is that just because it's just too many people competing for one spot or do they all have differentiation? What happens to all those observe ability startups that got minted and funded? >>So I have, I think we have to split this into two answers, the first one open metrics and also Prometheus we're trying really hard to standardize what we're doing and to make this reusable as much as we possibly can um simply because premises itself does not have any any profit motivation or anything, it is just a project run by people. Um so we gain by, by users using our stuff and working in the way, which we think is a good way to operate. So anyone who just supports all those open standards, just on boards themselves onto a huge ecosystem of already installed base. And we're talking millions and millions and millions of installations, we don't have hard numbers, but the millions and millions I am certain of and thats installations, not users, so that's several orders of magnitude more. Um, so that that actually enables an ecosystem within which to move as to the second question. It is a super hot topic. So obviously that we see money starts coming in from all right. Um, I don't think that everyone will survive, but that is just how it usually is. There is a lot of of not very differentiated offerings, be the software, be they as a service, be their distributions? Well, you don't really see much much value and not not a lot of, not a lot of much anything in ways of innovation. So this is more about about making it easier to run or or taking that pain away, which obviously makes you open to attack by by all the hyper scale. Of course, they can just do this at a higher scale than you. Um, so unless you actually really in a way in that space and actually shape and lead in that space, at least to some extent, it will probably be relatively hard. That being said. >>Yeah, when you ride, when you ride the big waves like this, I mean, you you got to be on the right side of this. Uh, Pat Gelsinger's when he was that VM Where now is that intel told me on the cube one time. If you're not, you don't get it right on these waves, your driftwood, Right? So, so, you know, and we've seen this movie before, when you start to see the standards bodies like the I E T. F. Start to look at standards. You start to think there's a broader market opportunities, a need for some standards, which is good. It enables more value, right value creation, whether it's out in the open or if it's innovative from a commercialization standpoint, you know, these are good things and then you have everyone who's jockeying around from the land grab incomes, a standard momentum, you gotta be on the right side of these things. We know what we know it's gonna look like. If you're not on the right side of the standard, then your proprietary, >>precisely. >>And so that's the endgame. Okay, well, I really appreciate the impact. Final question. Um, as the world evolved post Covid as cloud Native goes mainstream, the enterprises in the cloud scale are demanding more things. Enterprises are are, you know, they want more stuff than just straight up in the cloud startups, for instance. So you start to see, you know, faster, more agility obviously, uh, with deploying modern apps, when you start getting into enterprise grade scale, you gotta start thinking, you know, this is an engineering and computer science discipline. Coming together, you've got to look at the architecture. What's your future vision of how the next gen programmable infrastructure looks like? >>You mean, as in actually manage those services or limited to observe ability to >>observe ability, role, observe ability. Just you're in the urine. The survivability speaks to the operating system of what's going on, distributed computing you're looking at, you gotta have a good observe ability if you want to deploy services. So, you know, as it evolves and this is not a fringe thing anymore. This is real deal. This observe abilities a key linchpin in the architecture. >>So, um, maybe to approach us from two sides. One of the things which, which, I mean I come from very much non cloud native background. One of the things which tends to be overlooked in cloud native is that not everything is green field. Matter of fact, legacy is the code word for makes actual money. Um, so a lot of brownfield installations, which still make money, which we keep making money and all of those existence, they will not go away anytime soon. And as soon as you go to actually industry trying to uplift themselves to industry that foreign, all those passwords you get a lot more complexity in, in just the availability of systems than just the cloud native scheme. So being able to to actually put all of those data types together and not just have you. Okay, nice. I have my micro service events fully instrumented and if anything happens on the layer below, I'm simply unable to make any any effort on debugging um things like for example, Prometheus course they are so widely adopted enable you to literally, and I did this myself um from the Diesel Genset of your data center over the network down to down to the office. If if someone is in there, if if if your station and your pager is is uh stepped in such to the database to the extra service which is facing your end customers, all of those use the same labels that use the same metadata to actually talk about this. So all of a sudden I can really drill down into my data, not only from you. Okay. I have my microservices, my database. Big deal. No, I can actually go down as deep in my infrastructure as my infrastructure is. And this is especially important for anyone who's from the more traditional enterprise because most of them will for the foreseeable future have tons and tons and tons of those installations and the ability to just marry all this data together no matter where it's coming from. Of course you have this lingual franklin, you have these widely adopted open standards. I think that is one of the main drivers in >>jail. I think you just nailed the hybrid and surprised use case, you know, operation at scale and integrating the systems. So great job Richard, thank you so much for coming on. Richard Hartman, Director of community Griffon A labs. I'm talking, observe ability here on the cube. I'm john for your host covering cube con 21 cognitive content. One virtual. Thanks for watching. Mhm Yeah. Mhm.