>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering RSA Conference 2020 San Francisco, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey, welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We are Thursday, day four of the RSA Show here in Moscone in San Francisco. It's a beautiful day outside, but the show is still going, 40,000-plus people. A couple of challenges with the coronavirus, and some other things going on, but everybody's here, everybody's staying the course, and I think it's really a good message going forward as to what's going to happen in the show season. We go to a lot of shows. Is 2020 the year we're going to know everything with the benefit of hindsight? It's not quite working out so far that way, but we're bringing in the experts to share the knowledge, and we're excited for our next guest, who's going to help us get to know what the answers are. He's Oliver Sherman, senior director, Enterprise Product Marketing for Juniper Networks. Oliver, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Absolutely, so first off, just general impressions of the show. I'm sure you've been coming here for a little while. >> We have, and I think the show's going very well, as you pointed out, there's a couple of challenges that are around, but I think everybody's staying strong, and pushing through, and really driving the agenda of security. >> So I've got some interesting quotes from you doing a little research for this segment. You said 2019 was the year of enforcement, but 2020 is the year of intelligence. What did you mean by that? >> Specifically, it's around Juniper. We have a Juniper connected security message and strategy that we proved last year by increasing the ability to enforce on all of your infrastructure without having to rip and replace technologies. For instance, on our widely rolled out MX routing platform, we offer second tell to block things like command and control traffic, or on our switching line for campus and data centers, we prevent lateral threat propagation with second tell, allowing you to block hosts as they're infected, and as we rounded that out, and it's a little bit in 2020 we were able to now deliver that on our Mist, or our wireless acquistion that we did last year around this time, so showing the integration of that product portfolio. >> Yeah, we met Bob Friday from Mist. >> Oliver: Excellent. >> He, doing the AI, some of the ethics around AI. >> Oliver: Sure. >> At your guys conference last year. It was pretty interesting conversation. Let's break down what you said a little bit deeper. So you're talking about inside your own product suite, and managing threats across once they get to that level to keep things clean across that first layer of defense. >> Right, well, I mean, whether you're a good packet or a bad packet, you have to traverse the network to be interesting. We've all put our phones in airplane mode at Black Hat or events like that because we don't want anybody on it, but they're really boring when they're offline, but they're also really boring to attackers when they're offline. As soon as you turn them on, you have a problem, or could have a problem, but as things traverse the network, what better place to see who and what's on your network than on the gears, and at the end of the day, we're able to provide that visibility, we're able to provide that enforcement, so as you mentioned, 2020 is now the year of an awareness for us, so the Threat Aware Network. We're able to do things like look at encrypted traffic, do heuristics and analysis to figure out should that even be on my network because as you bring it into a network, and you have to decrypt it, a, there's privacy concerns with that in these times, but also, it's computationally expensive to do that, so it becomes a challenge from both a financial perspective, as well as a compliance perspective, so we're helping solve that so you can offset that traffic, and be able to ensure your network's secure. >> So is that relatively new, and I apologize. I'm not deep into the weeds of feature functionality, but that sounds pretty interesting that you can actually start to do the analysis without encrypting the data, and get some meaningful, insightful information. >> Absolutely, we actually announced it on Monday at 4:45 a.m. Pacific, so it is new. >> Brand new. >> Yes. >> And what's the secret sauce to be able to do that because one would think just by rule encryption would eliminate the ability to really do the analysis, so what analysis can you still do while still keeping the data encrypted? >> You're absolutely right. We're seeing 70 to 80% of internet traffic is now encrypted. Furthermore, bad actors are using that to obfuscate themselves, right, obviously, and then, the magic to that, though, to look at it without having to crack open the package is using things like heuristics that look at connections per second, or connection patterns, or looking at significant exchanges, or even IP addresses to know this is not something you want to let in, and we're seeing a very high rate of success to block things like IoT botnets, for instance, so you'll be seeing more and more of that from us throughout the year, but this is the initial step that we're taking. >> Right, that's great because so much of it it sounds like, a, a lot of it's being generated by machines, but two, it sounds like the profile of the attacks keeps changing quite a bit from a concentrated attacks to more, it sounds like now, everyone's doing the slow creeper to try to get it under the covers. >> Right, and really, you're using your network to your full extent. I mean, a lot of things that we're doing including encrypted traffic analysis is an additional feature on our platform, so that comes with what you already have, so rather than walking in and saying, "Buy my suite of products, this will all" "solve all your problems," as we've done for the past, or as other vendors have done for the past 10, 20 years, and it's never worked. So you why not add things that you already have so you're allowed to amortize your assets, build your best of breed security, and do it within a multi-vendor environment, but also, do it with your infrastructure. >> Right, so I want to shift gears a little bit. Doing some research before you got on, you've always been technical lead. You've been doing technical lead roles. You had a whole bunch of them, and we don't have internet, unfortunately, here, so I can't read them off. >> Oliver: That's fine. >> But now, you've switched over. You've put the marketing hat on. I'm just curious the different, softer, squishy challenge of trying to take the talent that you have, the technical definitions that you have, the detailed compute and stuff you're doing around things like you just described, and now, putting the marketing hat, and trying to get that message out to the market, help people understand what you're trying to do, and break through, quite frankly, some crazy noise that we're sitting here surrounded by hundreds, if not thousands of vendors. >> I think that's really the key, and yes, I've been technical leads. I've run architecture teams. I've run development teams, and really, from a marketing perspective, it's to ensure that we're delivering a message that is, that the market will consume that is actually based in reality. I think a lot of times you see a lot of products that are put together with duct tape, baling twine, et cetera, but then, also have a great Powerpoint that makes it look good, but from a go to market perspective, from whether it's your sellers, meaning the sellers that work for Juniper, whether it's our partners, whether it's our customers, they have to believe in what's out there, and if it's tried and true, and we understand it from an engineering perspective, and we can say it's not a marketing texture, it's a strategy. >> Right. >> That really makes a difference, and we're really seeing that if you look at our year over year growth in security, if you look at what analysts are saying, if you look at what testing houses are saying about our product, that Juniper's back, and that's why I'm in this spot. >> And it really begs to have a deeper relationship with the customer, that you're not selling them a one-off market texture slide. You're not having a quick point solution that's suddenly put together, but really, have this trusted, ongoing relationship that's going to evolve over time. The products are going to evolve over time because the threats are evolving over time, right? >> Absolutely, and to help them get more out of what they already have, and from a go to market perspective, our partners have an addressful market that's naturally through the install base that we have, we're able to provide additional value and services to those customers that may want to lean on a partner to actually build some of these solutions for them. >> All right, well, Oliver, well thanks for stopping by. I'm glad I'm not too late on the encrypted analysis game, so just a couple of days. >> Absolutely. >> Thanks for stopping by. Best to you, and good luck with 2020, the year we'll know everything. >> Absolutely, thanks for having me. >> All right, he's Oliver, I'm Jeff, you're watching theCUBE. We're at RSA 2020 here in Moscone. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time. (gentle electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Francisco, it's theCUBE, covering RSA conference 2020 San Francisco, brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at the RSA 2020 show, here in Moscone in San Francisco, it's Thursday, we've been going wall to wall, we're really excited for our next guest. We've been talking about some kind of interesting topics, getting a little bit into the weeds, not on the technology, but some of the philosophical things that are happening in this industry that you should be thinking about. And we're excited welcome, Laurence Pitt, he is the cyber security strategist at Juniper Networks. Laurence, great to meet you. >> Thank you very much, hi. >> Yeah, so before we turn the cameras off, we've been talking about all kinds of fancy things, so let's just jump into it. One of the topics that gets a lot of news is deepfakes, and there's a lot of cute funny things out there of people's voices and things that they're saying not necessarily being where you expect them to be, but there's a real threat here, and a real kind of scary situation that just barely beginning to scratch the surface, I want you to get share some of your thoughts on deepfakes. >> I'm going to think you made a good point at the start. There's a lot of cute and funny stuff out there, there's a lot of fake political stuff you see. So is it seen as being humorous some people are sharing it a lot. But there is a darker side that's going to happen to deepfakes, because a lot of the things that you see today that go out on video, the reason that it is what it is, is because you're very familiar with the person that you're seeing in that video. Is a famous politician, is a movie star, and they're saying something that's out of character or funny and that's it. But what if that was actually the Chief Financial Officer of a major company, where the company appears to have launched a video, very close to the bell ringing on the stock market, that makes some kind of announcement about product or delay or something to do with their quarterly figures or something like that? You know that one minute video, could do a huge amount of damage to that organization. It could that somebody's looking to take advantage of a dip at that point, video goes out, their stocks going to dip, buy it out, then they could profit, but it all could also be much darker. It could be somebody who's trying to do that to actually damage their business. >> So, would you define a very good text base phishing spear phishing as a deepfake, where they've got enough data, where they're, the relevance of the topic is so spot on, the names that are involved in the text are so spot on 'cause they've done their homework, and the transactions that they're suggesting, are really spot on and consistent with the behavior of the things that their target does each and every day. >> So I'm not sure I defined that as a deepfake yet, obviously you've got two types of a phish, you've got a spear phish, which is the the perfected version, the work has gone into target, you as a specific, high value individual for some reason in your organization, but what we are seeing is in the same way that deepfakes are leveraging technology to be able to manipulate somebody, things like the fact that we're all on Instagram, we're all on Facebook, we're all on Twitter, means that social manipulation is a lot easier for the bad guys to be able to create, phishing campaigns that appear to be very much more targeted, they can create emails because they know you've got a dog. They know roughly where you live, because you're this information is coming up in pictures and it's a metro on the internet. And so they can generate automated messaging and emails and things that are going to go out. That will appear to be from whomever you expect to receive it from, using words that you think that only they would know about to make that appear to be more realistic. >> Right. >> And that's actually something, we sort of seen the start of that, but still the thing to spot is that the grammar is very often not very good in these if they haven't perfected the language side of it. >> But that's coming right, but that's coming right. >> But they all getting much more accurate yeah. >> We is an automated transcription service to do all the transcription on these videos. And you know, It's funny you can you can pay for the machine or you can pay for the human, we do both. But it's amazing, even only in the last six months to see the Delta shrink between the machine generated and the person generated. And this is even in, you know, pretty technical stuff that we get in very specific kind of vocabulary around the tech conferences that we cover. And the machines are catching up very, very fast. >> They very much are. but then if you think about, this is not new. What's happened, it's been happening in the background for a while things like quite a lot of legal work is done. If you look at a state agency, for example, conveyancing it's not uncommon for the conveyancing to be done using machine learning and using computer generated documentation because it's within a framework. But of course, the more it does that, the more that it learns. And then that software can more easily be applied to other other areas to be able to do that accurately. >> Right. So another big topic that gets a lot of conversation is passwords. You know, it's been going on forever, and now we're starting to get The two factor authentication, you know, the new Apple phones, you can look at it and identify it, you say now you have kind of biometrics. But that can all be hacked, too, right? It's just a slightly different, a slightly different method. But, you know, even those, the biometric is not at all. >> Well. >> That's secure. >> I think the thing is, you see that when you're logging into something, there's two pieces of information you need. There's there's what you are you as a person and then there's the thing that you know, a lot of people confuse biometrics, thinking of biometric authentication is their password, we're actually the biometric is is the them. And so you still should back things with strong passwords, you still should have that behind it. Because if somebody does get through the biometric that shouldn't automatically just give them access to absolutely everything. It's you know, these are technologies that are provided to make things easier to make it so that you can have less strong passwords so that so that you do know where you're storing information. But People over people tend to rely on them too much, it is still very, very important to use strong passwords to think about the process for how you want to do that. Taking statements and then turning those statements into strange sentences that only you understand maybe having your own code to do that conversion. So that you have a very strong password that nobody's ever going to pick up, right? We know that common passwords, unfortunately, are still 1234567 password, its horrific. >> I know, i saw some article that you're quoted in and it had the worst 25 passwords for 2018 and 2019. And it's basically just pick and pick a string. >> They just don't change. >> But you know, but it's interesting cause, you know, having a hard Prat, you know, it's easy to make, take the time and go ahead and create that, that that strong password. But then, you know, three months later. Salesforce keeps making me do a new one or the bank keeps making me do a new one. What's your opinion in some of these kind of password managers? Because to me, it seems like okay, well, I might be doing a great job creating some crazy passwords for the specific accounts. But what if I could hacked on that thing right now they have everything in the same a single place. >> Yeah. So this is where things like two factor authentication become really, really important. So I use passwords manager. And I've been I'm very, very careful with the how my passwords are created and what goes in there so that i know where certain passwords are created for certain types of account and certain complexities. But I also turned on two factor. And if somebody does try to go into my online password account, I will get an alert to say that they've tried to do that a single failed authentication and I will get an alert to say that they've done it an authentication that happens where I'm not I you know, then I will get a note say I've done that. So this is where there's that second factor actually becomes very important. If you have something that gives you the option to use two factor authentication. Use it. >> Use it. >> You know, it may, you know, we it is a pain when you're trying to do something with your credit card and you have to do One time text. But it'd be more of a pain if you didn't and somebody else was to use it. And to fill it up nicely for you wouldn't right. >> Right. You know, it's funny part of the keynote from Rowan was talking about, you know, as a profession, spending way too much time thinking about the most kind of crazy bizarre, sophisticated attacks. At the at the fault of, you know, not necessarily paying attention to the basics and the basics is where still a lot of the damage was done right. >> You know what? This is the thing and then there's, you know, there's a, there's a few things in our industry. So exactly what you just said. Everybody seems to believe that they're going to be the target of the next really big complex, major attack. The reality is they aren't. And the reality is that they've been hit by the basic slight ransomware, phishing spearphishing credential stuffing all these attacks are hitting them all the time. And so they need to have those foundational elements in place against those understanding what those are and not worry about the big stuff because the reality is if your organization is going to be hit by a nation state level complex attack. Or you can do fight against that as well, it's going to happen. And that's the thing with a lot of the buzzwords that we see in in cyber today as Matt. >> And and with smaller companies SMB's, I mean is really their only solution to go with, you know, cloud providers and other types of organizations and have the resources to get the people and the systems and the processes to really protect them because you can't expect you to just flowers down down off fourth street to be have any type of sophistication needed. But as soon as you plug that server in with a website, you're instantly going to get, get attacked , right. >> So the thing is, you can expect that, that guy to be an expert. He's not going to be an expert in cybersecurity and the cost of hiring someone is going to outweigh the value who's getting back. My recommendation that case is to look for organizations that can actually help you to become more cyber resilience. So an organization that I work with, it's actually UK and US basis, the global cyber alliance. They actually produce a small business toolkit. So it's a set of tools which are not chargeable is put together. And some of it might be a white paper, a set of recommendations, it might actually be a vendor developed tool that they can use to download to check the vulnerabilities or something like that. But what it does is it provides a framework for them. So they go through and say, Okay, yeah, I get this. This is English, simple language. And it helps to protect me as a small business owner, not a massive enterprise where actually none of those solutions fits what i one's to. So that's my recommendation to small businesses, look for these types of organization, work with someone like that, listen to what they're doing and learn cyber from them. >> Yeah, that's good tip. I want to, kind of of double click on that. So that makes sense when it's easy to measure your ROI on a small business. I just can't afford the security pros. >> Yeah. >> For bigger companies when they're doing their budgeting for security. To me, it's always a really interesting as i can, it's insurance at some point, you know, wouldn't be great if i could ensure 100% coverage, but we can't. And there's other needs in the business beyond just investing in, in cyber security, how should people think about the budgets relative to, as you just said, the value that they're trying to protect? How do you help people think about their cyber security budgets and allocations. >> So then there needs to be and this is happening, a change in how the conversation works between the security team and the board who own those budgets. What tends to happen today is that there's a cyber team wants to provide the right information to the board that's going to make them see how good what they're doing is and how successful they are and justifies the spend that they've made and also justifies the future investments that they're going to need to make. But very often, that falls back on reporting on big numbers, statistics, we blocked billions of threats. We turned away millions of pieces of malware. Actually, that conversation needs to narrow down and the team should be saying, Okay, so in the last two months, we had Five attacks that came in, we actually dealt with them by doing this, this is the changes that we've made, this is what we've learned. However, if we had had this additional or this switched on, then we would have been more successful or we'd have been faster or we could have turned down the time on doing that. Having that risk and compliance type conversation is actually adding value to the security solutions they've got and the board understand that they get that conversation, you're going to be happy to engage. This is happening, this is something that is happening. And it will, it's going to get better and better. But that's that's where things need to go. >> Right. Cause the other hard thing is it's kind of like we've joked earlier, it's kind of like an offensive lineman, they do a great job for 69 plays. And on the seventh seventh play, they get a holding call. That's all anybody sees . And you know, there's, again, that was part of robots, keynote that we can't necessarily brag about all the DDoS taxes that we stopped cause we can't let the bad guys kind of know where we're, we're being successful. So it's a little bit of a challenge in tryna show the ROI. Show the value when you can't necessarily raise your hand and say, hey, we stopped the 87. Tax. >> Yeah, >> Cause it's only the 88. That really is the one that that showed up in the Wall Street Journal. >> I think the thing with that is when organizations are looking at security solutions, specifically, we're very aware of that. As you know, organizations struggle to get customer references, you'll see a lot of the references are major financial, large manufacturing organization, because companies don't want to step up and say, I implemented security, they did this because the reverse of that is, she didn't have it before then >> Right right, or we'll go in that door not that door. >> Yeah and so, but there are a lot of good testing organizations out there that actually do take the security solutions, and run them through very, very stringent tests and then report back on the success of those tests. So you know, we work closely with NSX labs, for example, we've had some very good reports that have come out from there, where they do a drill down into how fast how much, how many, and then that's the kind of You can then take to the board. That's the kind of thing that you can publicize to say, the reason that we're using Juniper X or x firewalls is because in this report, this is what it said, this is how good that product was. And then you're not admitting a weakness. You're actually saying we're strong because we did this work in this research background. >> Right, very different kind of different approach. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah well, Lawrence really enjoyed the conversation. We'll have to leave it here. But I think you have no shortage of job security, even though we will know everything in 2020 with the benefit of hindsight. >> Really, yeah thank you very much for that. >> All right. Thanks a lot. Alright, he's Lawrence. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube. We're at RSA 2020 in Moscone. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

>>from Las Vegas. It's the Q covering. Next work. 2019 America's Do You buy Juniper Networks? Come back already. Jeffrey here with the Cube were in Las Vegas at Caesar's at the Juniper. Next work event. About 1000 people kind of going over a lot of new cool things. 400 gigs. Who knew that was coming out of new information for me? But that's not what we're here today. We're here for the fourth installment of around the Cube unpacking. I were happy to have all the winners of the three previous rounds here at the same place. We don't have to do it over the phone s so we're happy to have him. Let's jump into it. So winner of Round one was Bob Friday. He is the VP and CTO at Missed the Juniper Company. Bob, Great to see you. Good to be back. Absolutely. All the way from Seattle. Sharna Parky. She's a VP applied scientist at Tech CEO could see Sharna and, uh, from Google. We know a lot of a I happen to Google. Rajan's chef. He is the V p ay ay >>product management on Google. Welcome. Thank you, Christy. Here >>All right, so let's jump into it. So just warm everybody up and we'll start with you. Bob, What are some When you're talking to someone at a cocktail party Friday night talking to your mom And they say, What is a I What >>do you >>give him? A Zen examples of where a eyes of packing our lives today? >>Well, I think we all know the examples of the south driving car, you know? Aye, aye. Starting to help our health care industry being diagnosed cancer for me. Personally, I had kind of a weird experience last week at a retail technology event where basically had these new digital mirrors doing facial recognition. Right? And basically, you start to have little mirrors were gonna be a skeevy start guessing. Hey, you have a beard, you have some glasses, and they start calling >>me old. So this is kind >>of very personal. I have a something for >>you, Camille, but eh? I go walking >>down a mall with a bunch of mirrors, calling me old. >>That's a little Illinois. Did it bring you out like a cane or a walker? You know, you start getting some advertising's >>that were like Okay, you guys, this is a little bit over the top. >>Alright, Charlotte, what about you? What's your favorite example? Share with people? >>Yeah, E think one of my favorite examples of a I is, um, kind of accessible in on your phone where the photos you take on an iPhone. The photos you put in Google photos, they're automatically detecting the faces and their labeling them for you. They're like, Here's selfies. Here's your family. Here's your Children. And you know, that's the most successful one of the ones that I think people don't really think about a lot or things like getting loan applications right. We actually have a I deciding whether or not we get loans. And that one is is probably the most interesting one to be right now. >>Roger. So I think the father's example is probably my favorite as well. And what's interesting to me is that really a I is actually not about the Yeah, it's about the user experience that you can create as a result of a I. What's cool about Google photos is that and my entire family uses Google photos and they don't even know actually that the underlying in some of the most powerful a I in the world. But what they know is they confined every picture of our kids on the beach whenever they whenever they want to. Or, you know, we had a great example where we were with our kids. Every time they like something in the store, we take a picture of it, Um, and we can look up toy and actually find everything that they've taken picture. >>It's interesting because I think most people don't even know the power that they have. Because if you search for beach in your Google photos or you search for, uh, I was looking for an old bug picture from my high school there it came right up until you kind of explore. You know, it's pretty tricky, Raja, you know, I think a lot of conversation about A They always focus the general purpose general purpose, general purpose machines and robots and computers. But people don't really talk about the applied A that's happening all around. Why do you think that? >>So it's a good question. There's there's a lot more talk about kind of general purpose, but the reality of where this has an impact right now is, though, are those specific use cases. And so, for example, things like personalizing customer interaction or, ah, spotting trends that did that you wouldn't have spotted for turning unstructured data like documents into structure data. That's where a eyes actually having an impact right now. And I think it really boils down to getting to the right use cases where a I right? >>Sharon, I want ask you. You know, there's a lot of conversation. Always has A I replace people or is it an augmentation for people? And we had Gary Kasparov on a couple years ago, and he talked about, you know, it was the combination if he plus the computer made the best chess player, but that quickly went away. Now the computer is actually better than Garry Kasparov. Plus the computer. How should people think about a I as an augmentation tool versus a replacement tool? And is it just gonna be specific to the application? And how do you kind of think about those? >>Yeah, I would say >>that any application where you're making life and death decisions where you're making financial decisions that disadvantage people anything where you know you've got u A. V s and you're deciding whether or not to actually dropped the bomb like you need a human in the loop. If you're trying to change the words that you are using to get a different group of people to apply for jobs, you need a human in the loop because it turns out that for the example of beach, you type sheep into your phone and you might get just a field, a green field and a I doesn't know that, uh, you know, if it's always seen sheep in a field that when the sheep aren't there, that that isn't a sheep like it doesn't have that kind of recognition to it. So anything were we making decisions about parole or financial? Anything like that needs to have human in the loop because those types of decisions are changing fundamentally the way we live. >>Great. So shift gears. The team are Jeff Saunders. Okay, team, your mind may have been the liquid on my bell, so I'll be more active on the bell. Sorry about that. Everyone's even. We're starting a zero again, so I want to shift gears and talk about data sets. Um Bob, you're up on stage. Demo ing some some of your technology, the Miss Technology and really, you know, it's interesting combination of data sets A I and its current form needs a lot of data again. Kind of the classic Chihuahua on blue buried and photos. You got to run a lot of them through. How do you think about data sets? In terms of having the right data in a complete data set to drive an algorithm >>E. I think we all know data sets with one The tipping points for a I to become more real right along with cloud computing storage. But data is really one of the key points of making a I really write my example on stage was wine, right? Great wine starts a great grape street. Aye, aye. Starts a great data for us personally. L s t M is an example in our networking space where we have data for the last three months from our customers and rule using the last 30 days really trained these l s t m algorithms to really get that tsunami detection the point where we don't have false positives. >>How much of the training is done. Once you once you've gone through the data a couple times in a just versus when you first started, you're not really sure how it's gonna shake out in the algorithm. >>Yeah. So in our case right now, right, training happens every night. So every night, we're basically retraining those models, basically, to be able to predict if there's gonna be an anomaly or network, you know? And this is really an example. Where you looking all these other cat image thinks this is where these neural networks there really were one of the transformational things that really moved a I into the reality calling. And it's starting to impact all our different energy. Whether it's text imaging in the networking world is an example where even a I and deep learnings ruling starting to impact our networking customers. >>Sure, I want to go to you. What do you do if you don't have a big data set? You don't have a lot of pictures of chihuahuas and blackberries, and I want to apply some machine intelligence to the problem. >>I mean, so you need to have the right data set. You know, Big is a relative term on, and it depends on what you're using it for, right? So you can have a massive amount of data that represents solar flares, and then you're trying to detect some anomaly, right? If you train and I what normal is based upon a massive amount of data and you don't have enough examples of that anomaly you're trying to detect, then it's never going to say there's an anomaly there, so you actually need to over sample. You have to create a population of data that allows you to detect images you can't say, Um oh, >>I'm going to reflect in my data set the percentage of black women >>in Seattle, which is something below 6% and say it's fair. It's not right. You have to be able thio over sample things that you need, and in some ways you can get this through surveys. You can get it through, um, actually going to different sources. But you have to boot, strap it in some way, and then you have to refresh it, because if you leave that data set static like Bob mentioned like you, people are changing the way they do attacks and networks all the time, and so you may have been able to find the one yesterday. But today it's a completely different ball game >>project to you, which comes first, the chicken or the egg. You start with the data, and I say this is a ripe opportunity to apply some. Aye, aye. Or do you have some May I objectives that you want to achieve? And I got to go out and find the >>data. So I actually think what starts where it starts is the business problem you're trying to solve. And then from there, you need to have the right data. What's interesting about this is that you can actually have starting points. And so, for example, there's techniques around transfer, learning where you're able to take an an algorithm that's already been trained on a bunch of data and training a little bit further with with your data on DSO, we've seen that such that people that may have, for example, only 100 images of something, but they could use a model that's trained on millions of images and only use those 100 thio create something that's actually quite accurate. >>So that's a great segue. Wait, give me a ring on now. And it's a great Segway into talking about applying on one algorithm that was built around one data set and then applying it to a different data set. Is that appropriate? Is that correct? Is air you risking all kinds of interesting problems by taking that and applying it here, especially in light of when people are gonna go to outweigh the marketplace, is because I've got a date. A scientist. I couldn't go get one in the marketplace and apply to my data. How should people be careful not to make >>a bad decision based on that? So I think it really depends. And it depends on the type of machine learning that you're doing and what type of data you're talking about. So, for example, with images, they're they're they're well known techniques to be able to do this, but with other things, there aren't really and so it really depends. But then the other inter, the other really important thing is that no matter what at the end, you need to test and generate based on your based on your data sets and on based on sample data to see if it's accurate or not, and then that's gonna guide everything. Ultimately, >>Sharon has got to go to you. You brought up something in the preliminary rounds and about open A I and kind of this. We can't have this black box where stuff goes into the algorithm. That stuff comes out and we're not sure what the result was. Sounds really important. Is that Is that even plausible? Is it feasible? This is crazy statistics, Crazy math. You talked about the business objective that someone's trying to achieve. I go to the data scientist. Here's my data. You're telling this is the output. How kind of where's the line between the Lehman and the business person and the hard core data science to bring together the knowledge of Here's what's making the algorithm say this. >>Yeah, there's a lot of names for this, whether it's explainable. Aye, aye. Or interpret a belay. I are opening the black box. Things like that. Um, the algorithms that you use determine whether or not they're inspect herbal. Um, and the deeper your neural network gets, the harder it is to inspect, actually. Right. So, to your point, every time you take an aye aye and you use it in a different scenario than what it was built for. For example, um, there is a police precinct in New York that had a facial recognition software, and, uh, victim said, Oh, it looked like this actor. This person looked like Bill Cosby or something like that, and you were never supposed to take an image of an actor and put it in there to find people that look like them. But that's how people were using it. So the Russians point yes, like it. You can transfer learning to other a eyes, but it's actually the humans that are using it in ways that are unintended that we have to be more careful about, right? Um, even if you're a, I is explainable, and somebody tries to use it in a way that it was never intended to be used. The risk is much higher >>now. I think maybe I had, You know, if you look at Marvis kind of what we're building for the networking community Ah, good examples. When Marvis tries to do estimate your throughput right, your Internet throughput. That's what we usually call decision tree algorithm. And that's a very interpretive algorithm. and we predict low throughput. We know how we got to that answer, right? We know what features God, is there? No. But when we're doing something like a NAMI detection, that's a neural network. That black box it tells us yes, there's a problem. There's some anomaly, but that doesn't know what caused the anomaly. But that's a case where we actually used neural networks, actually find the anomie, and then we're using something else to find the root cause, eh? So it really depends on the use case and where the night you're going to use an interpreter of model or a neural network which is more of a black box model. T tell her you've got a cat or you've got a problem >>somewhere. So, Bob, that's really interested. So can you not unpacking? Neural network is just the nature of the way that the communication and the data flows and the inferences are made that you can't go in and unpack it, that you have to have the >>separate kind of process too. Get to the root cause. >>Yeah, assigned is always hard to say. Never. But inherently s neural networks are very complicated. Saito set of weights, right? It's basically usually a supervised training model, and we're feeding a bunch of data and trying to train it to detect a certain features, sir, an output. But that is where they're powerful, right? And that's why they basically doing such good, Because they are mimicking the brain, right? That neural network is a very complex thing. Can't like your brain, right? We really don't understand how your brain works right now when you have a problem, it's really trialling there. We try to figure out >>right going right. So I want to stay with you, bought for a minute. So what about when you change what you're optimizing? Four? So you just said you're optimizing for throughput of the network. You're looking for problems. Now, let's just say it's, uh, into the end of the quarter. Some other reason we're not. You're changing your changing what you're optimizing for, Can you? You have to write separate algorithm. Can you have dynamic movement inside that algorithm? How do you approach a problem? Because you're not always optimizing for the same things, depending on the market conditions. >>Yeah, I mean, I think a good example, you know, again, with Marvis is really with what we call reinforcement. Learning right in reinforcement. Learning is a model we use for, like, radio resource management. And there were really trying to optimize for the user experience in trying to balance the reward, the models trying to reward whether or not we have a good balance between the network and the user. Right, that reward could be changed. So that algorithm is basically reinforcement. You can finally change hell that Algren works by changing the reward you give the algorithm >>great. Um, Rajan back to you. A couple of huge things that have come into into play in the marketplace and get your take one is open source, you know, kind of. What's the impact of open source generally on the availability, desire and more applications and then to cloud and soon to be edge? You know, the current next stop. How do you guys incorporate that opportunity? How does it change what you can do? How does it open up the lens of >>a I Yeah, I think open source is really important because I think one thing that's interesting about a I is that it's a very nascent field and the more that there's open source, the more that people could build on top of each other and be able to utilize what what others others have done. And it's similar to how we've seen open source impact operating systems, the Internet, things like things like that with Cloud. I think one of the big things with cloud is now you have the processing power and the ability to access lots of data to be able to t create these thes networks. And so the capacity for data and the capacity for compute is much higher. Edge is gonna be a very important thing, especially going into next few years. You're seeing Maur things incorporated on the edge and one exciting development is around Federated learning where you can train on the edge and then combine some of those aspects into a cloud side model. And so that I think will actually make EJ even more powerful. >>But it's got to be so dynamic, right? Because the fundamental problem used to always be the move, the computer, the data or the date of the computer. Well, now you've got on these edge devices. You've got Tanya data right sensor data all kinds of machining data. You've got potentially nasty hostile conditions. You're not in a nice, pristine data center where the environmental conditions are in the connective ity issues. So when you think about that problem yet, there's still great information. There you got latent issues. Some I might have to be processed close to home. How do you incorporate that age old thing of the speed of light to still break the break up? The problem to give you a step up? Well, we see a lot >>of customers do is they do a lot of training on the cloud, but then inference on the on the edge. And so that way they're able to create the model that they want. But then they get fast response time by moving the model to the edge. The other thing is that, like you said, lots of data is coming into the edge. So one way to do it is to efficiently move that to the cloud. But the other way to do is filter. And to try to figure out what data you want to send to the clouds that you can create the next days. >>Shawna, back to you let's shift gears into ethics. This pesky, pesky issue that's not not a technological issue at all, but right. We see it often, especially in tech. Just cause you should just cause you can doesn't mean that you should. Um so and this is not a stem issue, right? There's a lot of different things that happened. So how should people be thinking about ethics? How should they incorporate ethics? Um, how should they make sure that they've got kind of a, you know, a standard kind of overlooking kind of what they're doing? The decisions are being made. >>Yeah, One of the more approachable ways that I have found to explain this is with behavioral science methodologies. So ethics is a massive field of study, and not everyone shares the same ethics. However, if you try and bring it closer to behavior change because every product that we're building is seeking to change of behavior. We need to ask questions like, What is the gap between the person's intention and the goal we have for them? Would they choose that goal for themselves or not? If they wouldn't, then you have an ethical problem, right? And this this can be true of the intention, goal gap or the intention action up. We can see when we regulated for cigarettes. What? We can't just make it look cool without telling them what the cigarettes are doing to them, right so we can apply the same principles moving forward. And they're pretty accessible without having to know. Oh, this philosopher and that philosopher in this ethicist said these things, it can be pretty human. The challenge with this is that most people building these algorithms are not. They're not trained in this way of thinking, and especially when you're working at a start up right, you don't have access to massive teams of people to guide you down this journey, so you need to build it in from the beginning, and you need to be open and based upon principles. Um, and it's going to touch every component. It should touch your data, your algorithm, the people that you're using to build the product. If you only have white men building the product, you have a problem you need to pull in other people. Otherwise, there are just blind spots that you are not going to think of in order to still that product for a wider audience, but it seems like >>they were on such a razor sharp edge. Right with Coca Cola wants you to buy Coca Cola and they show ads for Coca Cola, and they appeal to your let's all sing together on the hillside and be one right. But it feels like with a I that that is now you can cheat. Right now you can use behavioral biases that are hardwired into my brain is a biological creature against me. And so where is where is the fine line between just trying to get you to buy Coke? Which somewhat argues Probably Justus Bad is Jule cause you get diabetes and all these other issues, but that's acceptable. But cigarettes are not. And now we're seeing this stuff on Facebook with, you know, they're coming out. So >>we know that this is that and Coke isn't just selling Coke anymore. They're also selling vitamin water so they're they're play isn't to have a single product that you can purchase, but it is to have a suite of products that if you weren't that coke, you can buy it. But if you want that vitamin water you can have that >>shouldn't get vitamin water and a smile that only comes with the coat. Five. You want to jump in? >>I think we're going to see ethics really break into two different discussions, right? I mean, ethics is already, like human behavior that you're already doing right, doing bad behavior, like discriminatory hiring, training, that behavior. And today I is gonna be wrong. It's wrong in the human world is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the other component to this ethics discussion is really round privacy and data. It's like that mirror example, right? No. Who gave that mirror the right to basically tell me I'm old and actually do something with that data right now. Is that my data? Or is that the mirrors data that basically recognized me and basically did something with it? Right. You know, that's the Facebook. For example. When I get the email, tell me, look at that picture and someone's take me in the pictures Like, where was that? Where did that come from? Right? >>What? I'm curious about to fall upon that as social norms change. We talked about it a little bit for we turn the cameras on, right? It used to be okay. Toe have no black people drinking out of a fountain or coming in the side door of a restaurant. Not that long ago, right in the 60. So if someone had built an algorithm, then that would have incorporated probably that social norm. But social norms change. So how should we, you know, kind of try to stay ahead of that or at least go back reflectively after the fact and say kind of back to the black box, That's no longer acceptable. We need to tweak this. I >>would have said in that example, that was wrong. 50 years ago. >>Okay, it was wrong. But if you ask somebody in Alabama, you know, at the University of Alabama, Matt Department who have been born Red born, bred in that culture as well, they probably would have not necessarily agreed. But so generally, though, again, assuming things change, how should we make sure to go back and make sure that we're not again carrying four things that are no longer the right thing to do? >>Well, I think I mean, as I said, I think you know what? What we know is wrong, you know is gonna be wrong in the eye world. I think the more subtle thing is when we start relying on these Aye. Aye. To make decisions like no shit in my car, hit the pedestrian or save my life. You know, those are tough decisions to let a machine take off or your balls decision. Right when we start letting the machines Or is it okay for Marvis to give this D I ps preference over other people, right? You know, those type of decisions are kind of the ethical decision, you know, whether right or wrong, the human world, I think the same thing will apply in the eye world. I do think it will start to see more regulation. Just like we see regulation happen in our hiring. No, that regulation is going to be applied into our A I >>right solutions. We're gonna come back to regulation a minute. But, Roger, I want to follow up with you in your earlier session. You you made an interesting comment. You said, you know, 10% is clearly, you know, good. 10% is clearly bad, but it's a soft, squishy middle at 80% that aren't necessarily super clear, good or bad. So how should people, you know, kind of make judgments in this this big gray area in the middle? >>Yeah, and I think that is the toughest part. And so the approach that we've taken is to set us set out a set of AI ai principles on DDE. What we did is actually wrote down seven things that we will that we think I should do and four things that we should not do that we will not do. And we now have to actually look at everything that we're doing against those Aye aye principles. And so part of that is coming up with that governance process because ultimately it boils down to doing this over and over, seeing lots of cases and figuring out what what you should do and so that governments process is something we're doing. But I think it's something that every company is going to need to do. >>Sharon, I want to come back to you, so we'll shift gears to talk a little bit about about law. We've all seen Zuckerberg, unfortunately for him has been, you know, stuck in these congressional hearings over and over and over again. A little bit of a deer in a headlight. You made an interesting comment on your prior show that he's almost like he's asking for regulation. You know, he stumbled into some really big Harry nasty areas that were never necessarily intended when they launched Facebook out of his dorm room many, many moons ago. So what is the role of the law? Because the other thing that we've seen, unfortunately, a lot of those hearings is a lot of our elected officials are way, way, way behind there, still printing their e mails, right? So what is the role of the law? How should we think about it? What shall we What should we invite from fromthe law to help sort some of this stuff out? >>I think as an individual, right, I would like for each company not to make up their own set of principles. I would like to have a shared set of principles that were following the challenge. Right, is that with between governments, that's impossible. China is never gonna come up with same regulations that we will. They have a different privacy standards than we D'oh. Um, but we are seeing locally like the state of Washington has created a future of work task force. And they're coming into the private sector and asking companies like text you and like Google and Microsoft to actually advise them on what should we be regulating? We don't know. We're not the technologists, but they know how to regulate. And they know how to move policies through the government. What will find us if we don't advise regulators on what we should be regulating? They're going to regulate it in some way, just like they regulated the tobacco industry. Just like they regulated. Sort of, um, monopolies that tech is big enough. Now there is enough money in it now that it will be regularly. So we need to start advising them on what we should regulate because just like Mark, he said. While everyone else was doing it, my competitors were doing it. So if you >>don't want me to do it, make us all stop. What >>can I do? A negative bell and that would not for you, but for Mark's responsibly. That's crazy. So So bob old man at the mall. It's actually a little bit more codified right, There's GDP are which came through May of last year and now the newness to California Extra Gatorade, California Consumer Protection Act, which goes into effect January 1. And you know it's interesting is that the hardest part of the implementation of that I think I haven't implemented it is the right to be for gotten because, as we all know, computers, air, really good recording information and cloud. It's recorded everywhere. There's no there there. So when these types of regulations, how does that impact? Aye, aye, because if I've got an algorithm built on a data set in in person, you know, item number 472 decides they want to be forgotten How that too I deal with that. >>Well, I mean, I think with Facebook, I can see that as I think. I suspect Mark knows what's right and wrong. He's just kicking ball down tires like >>I want you guys. >>It's your problem, you know. Please tell me what to do. I see a ice kind of like any other new technology, you know, it could be abused and used in the wrong waste. I think legally we have a constitution that protects our rights. And I think we're going to see the lawyers treat a I just like any other constitutional things and people who are building products using a I just like me build medical products or other products and actually harmful people. You're gonna have to make sure that you're a I product does not harm people. You're a product does not include no promote discriminatory results. So I >>think we're going >>to see our constitutional thing is going applied A I just like we've seen other technologies work. >>And it's gonna create jobs because of that, right? Because >>it will be a whole new set of lawyers >>the holdings of lawyers and testers, even because otherwise of an individual company is saying. But we tested. It >>works. Trust us. Like, how are you gonna get the independent third party verification of that? So we're gonna start to see a whole terrorist proliferation of that type of fields that never had to exist before. >>Yeah, one of my favorite doctor room. A child. Grief from a center. If you don't follow her on Twitter Follower. She's fantastic and a great lady. So I want to stick with you for a minute, Bob, because the next topic is autonomous. And Rahman up on the keynote this morning, talked about missed and and really, this kind of shifting workload of fixing things into an autonomous set up where the system now is, is finding problems, diagnosing problems, fixing problems up to, I think, he said, even generating return authorizations for broken gear, which is amazing. But autonomy opens up all kinds of crazy, scary things. Robert Gates, we interviewed said, You know, the only guns that are that are autonomous in the entire U. S. Military are the ones on the border of North Korea. Every single other one has to run through a person when you think about autonomy and when you can actually grant this this a I the autonomy of the agency toe act. What are some of the things to think about in the word of the things to keep from just doing something bad, really, really fast and efficiently? >>Yeah. I mean, I think that what we discussed, right? I mean, I think Pakal purposes we're far, you know, there is a tipping point. I think eventually we will get to the CP 30 Terminator day where we actually build something is on par with the human. But for the purposes right now, we're really looking at tools that we're going to help businesses, doctors, self driving cars and those tools are gonna be used by our customers to basically allow them to do more productive things with their time. You know, whether it's doctor that's using a tool to actually use a I to predict help bank better predictions. They're still gonna be a human involved, you know, And what Romney talked about this morning and networking is really allowing our I T customers focus more on their business problems where they don't have to spend their time finding bad hard were bad software and making better experiences for the people. They're actually trying to serve >>right, trying to get your take on on autonomy because because it's a different level of trust that we're giving to the machine when we actually let it do things based on its own. But >>there's there's a lot that goes into this decision of whether or not to allow autonomy. There's an example I read. There's a book that just came out. Oh, what's the title? You look like a thing. And I love you. It was a book named by an A I, um if you want to learn a lot about a I, um and you don't know much about it, Get it? It's really funny. Um, so in there there is in China. Ah, factory where the Aye Aye. Is optimizing um, output of cockroaches now they just They want more cockroaches now. Why do they want that? They want to grind them up and put them in a lotion. It's one of their secret ingredients now. It depends on what parameters you allow that I to change, right? If you decide Thio let the way I flood the container, and then the cockroaches get out through the vents and then they get to the kitchen to get food, and then they reproduce the parameters in which you let them be autonomous. Over is the challenge. So when we're working with very narrow Ai ai, when use hell the Aye. Aye. You can change these three things and you can't just change anything. Then it's a lot easier to make that autonomous decision. Um and then the last part of it is that you want to know what is the results of a negative outcome, right? There was the result of a positive outcome. And are those results something that we can take actually? >>Right, Right. Roger, don't give you the last word on the time. Because kind of the next order of step is where that machines actually write their own algorithms, right? They start to write their own code, so they kind of take this next order of thought and agency, if you will. How do you guys think about that? You guys are way out ahead in the space, you have huge data set. You got great technology. Got tensorflow. When will the machines start writing their own A their own out rhythms? Well, and actually >>it's already starting there that, you know, for example, we have we have a product called Google Cloud. Ottawa. Mel Village basically takes in a data set, and then we find the best model to be able to match that data set. And so things like that that that are there already, but it's still very nascent. There's a lot more than that that can happen. And I think ultimately with with how it's used I think part of it is you have to start. Always look at the downside of automation. And what is what is the downside of a bad decision, whether it's the wrong algorithm that you create or a bad decision in that model? And so if the downside is really big, that's where you need to start to apply Human in the loop. And so, for example, in medicine. Hey, I could do amazing things to detect diseases, but you would want a doctor in the loop to be able to actually diagnose. And so you need tohave have that place in many situations to make sure that it's being applied well. >>But is that just today? Or is that tomorrow? Because, you know, with with exponential growth and and as fast as these things are growing, will there be a day where you don't necessarily need maybe need the doctor to communicate the news? Maybe there's some second order impacts in terms of how you deal with the family and, you know, kind of pros and cons of treatment options that are more emotional than necessarily mechanical, because it seems like eventually that the doctor has a role. But it isn't necessarily in accurately diagnosing a problem. >>I think >>I think for some things, absolutely over time the algorithms will get better and better, and you can rely on them and trust them more and more. But again, I think you have to look at the downside consequence that if there's a bad decision, what happens and how is that compared to what happens today? And so that's really where, where that is. So, for example, self driving cars, we will get to the point where cars are driving by themselves. There will be accidents, but the accident rate is gonna be much lower than what's there with humans today, and so that will get there. But it will take time. >>And there was a day when will be illegal for you to drive. You have manslaughter, right? >>I I believe absolutely there will be in and and I don't think it's that far off. Actually, >>wait for the day when I have my car take me up to Northern California with me. Sleepy. I've only lived that long. >>That's right. And work while you're while you're sleeping, right? Well, I want to thank everybody Aton for being on this panel. This has been super fun and these air really big issues. So I want to give you the final word will just give everyone kind of a final say and I just want to throw out their Mars law. People talk about Moore's law all the time. But tomorrow's law, which Gardner stolen made into the hype cycle, you know, is that we tend to overestimate in the short term, which is why you get the hype cycle and we turn. Tend to underestimate, in the long term the impacts of technology. So I just want it is you look forward in the future won't put a year number on it, you know, kind of. How do you see this rolling out? What do you excited about? What are you scared about? What should we be thinking about? We'll start with you, Bob. >>Yeah, you know, for me and, you know, the day of the terminus Heathrow. I don't know if it's 100 years or 1000 years. That day is coming. We will eventually build something that's in part of the human. I think the mission about the book, you know, you look like a thing and I love >>you. >>Type of thing that was written by someone who tried to train a I to basically pick up lines. Right? Cheesy pickup lines. Yeah, I'm not for sure. I'm gonna trust a I to help me in my pickup lines yet. You know I love you. Look at your thing. I love you. I don't know if they work. >>Yeah, but who would? Who would have guessed online dating is is what it is if you had asked, you know, 15 years ago. But I >>think yes, I think overall, yes, we will see the Terminator Cp through It was probably not in our lifetime, but it is in the future somewhere. A. I is definitely gonna be on par with the Internet cell phone, radio. It's gonna be a technology that's gonna be accelerating if you look where technology's been over last. Is this amazing to watch how fast things have changed in our lifetime alone, right? Yeah, we're just on this curve of technology accelerations. This in the >>exponential curves China. >>Yeah, I think the thing I'm most excited about for a I right now is the addition of creativity to a lot of our jobs. So ah, lot of we build an augmented writing product. And what we do is we look at the words that have happened in the world and their outcomes. And we tell you what words have impacted people in the past. Now, with that information, when you augment humans in that way, they get to be more creative. They get to use language that have never been used before. To communicate an idea. You can do this with any field you can do with composition of music. You can if you can have access as an individual, thio the data of a bunch of cultures the way that we evolved can change. So I'm most excited about that. I think I'm most concerned currently about the products that we're building Thio Give a I to people that don't understand how to use it or how to make sure they're making an ethical decision. So it is extremely easy right now to go on the Internet to build a model on a data set. And I'm not a specialist in data, right? And so I have no idea if I'm adding bias in or not, um and so it's It's an interesting time because we're in that middle area. Um, and >>it's getting loud, all right, Roger will throw with you before we have to cut out, or we're not gonna be able to hear anything. So I actually start every presentation out with a picture of the Mosaic browser, because what's interesting is I think that's where >>a eyes today compared to kind of weather when the Internet was around 1994 >>were just starting to see how a I can actually impact the average person. As a result, there's a lot of hype, but what I'm actually finding is that 70% of the company's I talked to the first question is, Why should I be using this? And what benefit does it give me? Why 70% ask you why? Yeah, and and what's interesting with that is that I think people are still trying to figure out what is this stuff good for? But to your point about the long >>run, and we underestimate the longer I think that every company out there and every product will be fundamentally transformed by eye over the course of the next decade, and it's actually gonna have a bigger impact on the Internet itself. And so that's really what we have to look forward to. >>All right again. Thank you everybody for participating. There was a ton of fun. Hope you had fun. And I look at the score sheet here. We've got Bob coming in and the bronze at 15 points. Rajan, it's 17 in our gold medal winner for the silver Bell. Is Sharna at 20 points. Again. Thank you. Uh, thank you so much and look forward to our next conversation. Thank Jeffrey Ake signing out from Caesar's Juniper. Next word unpacking. I Thanks for watching.

>> live from Anaheim, California. It's the queue covering nutanix dot next twenty nineteen Brought to you by nutanix. >> Hello, everyone. You are watching the Cube and we are live at nutanix dot Next here in Anaheim. I'm your host, Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John Farrier. We're joined by Michael Bushong. He is the vice president Enterprise marketing at Juniper Networks. Thank you so much for returning to the Cube, Your Cuba Lem. >> So thank you for this is this is awesome and you can't see it on the cameras. But this is a, like, just amazing. >> It's very We are in the clouds up here. It's a very high stage. Everything's coming full circle. >> Jim Cramer. Ask a little bit >> serious. Okay. >> Of course. I'm going to ask the tough questions >> going on. He's going to start slamming everything very soon, >> But we've known each other for a long time, Jennifer Going back ten years ago. So look, a tangle started. We're in our tenth year. You know, if you've seen the journey, I am a juniper. You left juniper startup brocade, then back to juniper. So you've seen that circle? You've seen the couple waves? I mean one of the things we were talking about before we came on camera was saw. Network fabrics to Dover had Juno's and then be anywhere. But you know, So this arrow, which became the ESPN Wave, are now suffer to find data center. So you've been in that journey is a product person. And now marking juniper, it's actually goes back about a decade. This whole esti n stuff networking. So what's What's the role now that you're doing? What's juniper doing? Why Nutanix? What's your story year? >> Sure. So I run enterprise marketing at Juniper, so my goal is effectively toe to make some of the hype makes sense, right? It goes back a decade. Actually, the early days of the only ESPN movement we didn't call it s tiene right. Juniper started with open flow and PC and alto and all these acronyms, and we actually, we're a great engineering company. Maybe not so great marketing company. And we actually call it network program ability. That didn't take off. But the technology's kind of endured. And I think what we saw was this lengthy incubation period to the point that now, as we sit here dot next in twenty nineteen. We're starting to see now some of the attraction of the last couple of years. That's a junipers general position. So we wantto dr Adoption. Certainly there's products and technology that underpins that, but But fundamentally, we're looking at a huge operational shift. And if that operational shift doesn't happen, then that's to the detriment of everyone in the industry. >> What's the relationship with NUTANIX? Can you talk about how you guys work together? What's the connection? >> Sure. So nutanix obviously does the whole hyper converge space. We provide the networking components to that. So whether that's the top Iraq connectivity, how do you get your traffic into the rest of the network? We've done some security stuff which we can talk more about. And then, if you look at the overall management piece, we've got integrations at the management policy layer as well. >> So your relationship you both got a very similar world view. How you see technology, you're both taken on VM. Where to? Can you talk a little bit about the relationships there and and why it works? >> Sure, fundamentally, if you look at what Nutanix is trying to do, it's this whole idea of one click. It ties ing everything right. They talk a lot in their keynote sessions. You hear the executives talk, You look at their collateral, the messages they take, the customers. It's about making things simple. Junipers Strategy is this idea of engineering simplicity. So just a top level? What's our purpose? What's our role in this industry at large? I think we have a very common worldview. Of course, driving simplicity is going to happen in the context of real architectural change on the change That's kind of everywhere is cloud and increasingly multi cloud. And so both Nutanix and Juniper about really driving simplicity in the context of Cloud multi cloud, giving customers the opportunity, toe run workloads wherever they need Teo without taking on additional operational burden. That's kind of cesarean unwanted in enterprises networking. >> So the Big Tran, this multi cloud you guys. That's a key part of the strategy. Dave along tonight and Stew Minutemen were arguing on the cute couple events ago. There are not one of our sessions about the hype around multi cloud. The reality of it. The reality is, is that everyone kind of has multiple clouds. It's not like that the clouds aren't talking to each other, and then we're just kind of riffing on the cloud is just big. One big distributed network, different computing, distributed networks. These air knew these aren't new paradigms. These are existing things that have computer science behind them. Engineering behind it. So juniper, you have been around for a long time. Connecting networks. The cloud is like some of the same concert on premise Hybrid Cloud and multiplied it basically a distributed network. It's all cloud operations. We get that, but the technology issue is not that hard, but I won't say that that hard, but it's similar to what you guys have done in the past. Just differently. How are you guys looking at that? Because multiple clouds, just like Internet working the switches routers, you move from packet that point A and point B get storage. His store stuff So concepts are all the same. How do you guys seeing the multi cloud opportunity within juniper? >> So I would make the distinction between multiple clouds and multi cloud? I agree with you. If you look at most enterprises, they have a workload in Amazon. They're using sales force, and so you know, they're multi cloud, right? They have multiple clouds, multi clouds, more of an operational condition. It's about taking disparate pools of resource is and managing. That is one thing. So think of it more about how you do stuff and less about where you host an application. If you look it even like describing Amazon, some people say, Well, Amazon is just, you know, Cloud is just using other people servers. It's not. You're not renting their servers. What you're leveraging is their operations. That's the transformation. That's this kind of underfoot. And so while some of the technology bits are common, the ability to do abstracted control moving to declare it over intent based management, right, these air right technology building blocks. What you're seeing now is the operational models are coming along, and that's really that's the change we have to drive on. I'll just kind of close with when you change technology. If it's just about deploying a piece of software, if it's just about deploying a piece of hardware like candidly, that challenge isn't that it's not that hard, right? We know how to deploy stuff when you start talking about changing how people fundamentally do their jobs. When you started talking about changing, you know how businesses operate. That's that's the piece that takes some time and I would venture. That's why you know, you look a decade ago why we're where we started. If you look at what's taking a decade, it's the operational change, not the technology piece >> and the cultural jobs movement. Certainly forcing function on that, which is awesome. And that's the tale when I think. And then again, Gene Came was on yesterday Who wrote The Devil's Handbook and also does that death. The Devil Enterprise. Someone said, We're three percent in. I would agree with him. I think it's so early, but But the challenge. I want to get your thoughts, Michael. And this is that Connecting multiple on disparity environments is great, but late in C kills now. So now late and see these air old school concepts, you know, get a time can't change the laws of physics. Right? So Leighton sees matters s l A's matter. So these air network challenges these air software challenges. What's your view on that piece of the puzzle? >> We leave when we say cloud, you know a lot of people probably think, um, you know, G C P Azure. They might think a WSB probably picture in your head, you know, some logically central cloud. First, we need to disavow people of the notion that cloud is this thing that somehow sits at the center of everything. It's not. There are centralized clouds. If you're optimizing for economics, that makes perfect sense. Tow To do that. There's distributed clouds. The whole rise of multi axis edge computing is about changing the paradigm from moving data to the application. Right. If your applications in Amazon and you're going to send your data there, that's one model Teo. Sometimes you might want to move the application to the data. If you have a lot of data like an i o t. Use case as an example, I was used oil platforms is a really good example. I don't know if you know, but you know how they get all their. They have all these mining and manufacturing bits. They've got lots of data. How did they get that data off the oil platforms? Snowball. So what they do is the helicopters come in, they take the drives off and they they they leave right. The reason they do that because if your reliance on satellite links just too much data, you can't statue >> is going to get a helicopter to ransom helicopter to come in, >> we'LL know when they're swapping the crew out every fourteen days, that's what happens. So here's the thing, right? If in that kind of model than the cloud, the data center exists on premises. And if that's the case, then when we think about you know kind of what the cloud is, cloud is, it's It's a lot. It's a lot more than what we most of us probably think about. Certainly, we see it with Outpost as a WS is starting to move on premises versions, and there's a lot of reasons you might wanna have a distributed cloud. Certainly it could be, you know, your comfort and security and control. There's real privacy implications, country of origin, so subpoenas can access your information depending on where it resides. >> What you're saying is, basically, it's all cloud. It's operational is the new definition. So you figured from an operational standpoint, Ops and Dev's That's it. The rest is just all connected somehow through the text, >> and then you need to have it. Yes. So we we understand the connectivity, bitch, you've gotta have the right, you know, elements. But if it's operational, it's about how do you do policy management? So part of the whole nutanix thing and kind of what drove us together was this idea that if I want a one click everything. If you could do that within the hyper converge space, you still have to do that over the connected environment, which means managing policy from a single location, regardless of where it is. And of course, using that policy to Dr Security >> and their strategy is to take what that worked for. The CIA and the data center move that into this new operator operating model, which spans multiple quote, disparity, environments or clouds or edges. It's similar similar concept, but different environmental. Yeah, >> that's exactly right. And so then what Nutanix needs that is a strong networking partner because they have tto do the bits that they do. They need other people to do the bits that that you know that we can do. We pull those things together and then you can provide essentially a secure environment for hybrid workload. >> So you guys embed it into their product? You guys joined cell together. Is it more of a partnership? How deep is the partnership with you With Nutanix >> s all just They'LL say yes, we get along s o and it kind of the most surface level you know, you need to have top Iraq switches. You gotta connect to the network and so we do qualification there. So if you deploy nutanix, you can deploy juniper alongside and that looks more like a kind of a co selling meat in the channel type model. Beyond that, if you look at how we provide security over like a workload environment, the question is, then you know what's the security element? So we've taken our virtual firewall. We cut our V s are axe, which essentially runs in the V M. And we can run it on a V, and so that gives them a segmentation strategies. So if you look it workloads that air distributed across the cluster by having a firewall element that we can enforce policy. Of course, that firewall element is then integrated with prism. So if I want to deploy these things when I spin up a new V M. What I want to do is spin up the security with it, and so you see management integration. Then if we continue this too, it's kind of full conclusion. We have, ah, product suite We call contrail in the enterprise version Contra Enterprise Multi Cloud, which is all about policy management and underlay management. And so, as we extend the partnership, it gives us additional opportunity to take um to provide routed elements which provide policy enforcement points and then to give us a way of managing policy over a diverse environment. >> And you guys can bring in that platform element for nutanix. Is there now a platform? They have a full stack of software on Lee. So you guys, you cannot take their stuff, put it there and vice versa. >> That's exactly right. So whether the workload resides in a ws on two or whether it resides kind of on premises in a jiffy, weaken one, we're kind of co managed and then to it gives us the security elements toe play across that >> one of the things that we're talking a lot about at this rinse it and at a lot of other events like it, it's sort of or the dark side of technology. We're at a time where major presidential candidates are talking about breaking up. Big tech were becoming much more aware of the privacy concerns. The biases that are built into algorithms. Exactly. I want to hear your thoughts as a technology veteran. Do you? Are you still a technology optimist or do you did? Does this stuff keep you up at night? I mean, how where do you fit your personal views? I was >> somewhat of a technology optimists, but I'm a skeptic when it comes to the people. I think if the technology existed in a vacuum, I think some of the problems go away. I think privacy is a major concern. I think it's going to shape regulatory action, especially in Europe. Well, so I think we'LL see similar actions in the US I don't have quite a strong connection to what's happening in Asia. Um, I think that the regulatory, the challenge I have from a technology perspective is that if the regulations come in the absence of understanding how the technology works, then you end up with some really terrifying outcomes on DSO I'm Sam. I'm a fan of the technology. I'm nervous of the people on that in terms of like, our overall Ruelas is cos here, I think, you know, we need to do a candidate a better job of, of making sure things land before we move on to the next big thing on DH. You know, we're talking cloud. We're ten years into cloud and people were always talking about the next frontier. To some extent, I think the world doesn't move as fast as we like to think it does. I don't think that the even like the mark, I'm in a marketing role. I don't think that the marketing hype necessary. I don't think it serves us by moving too far ahead because I will tell you when the gap between the promise and the reality becomes insurmountable e wide. I think it's Ah, I think I think everyone loses Andi. You run the risk of stranding an entire generation of people who who gets stuck behind it, and I don't you know, I'm nervous about about what that means, and I think it's you asked the question that you're the dark side. I think it's Certainly it plays out in our industry. I think it plays out. You know, there's a digital divide that's growing in the U. S. Based on broadband access. By the way, that's gonna widen with five G. I think it plays out between different nation states. So I Yeah, I don't know. I'm an optimist. Maybe I'm a pragmatist. >> Realist. >> Yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm a little scared. >> Little cloud definitely happened, and that's a good point. And we took a lot of heat at looking ankle. Keep on the cube. Was too many Men in the team put out the first private cloud report People like this is nonsense. Well, well. And our thesis was clouds grade if you want. If you're in the cloud as a cloud native or, you know, new startup, why wouldn't you go on Amazon? Everyone, we did that. But if once you taste cloud operations, you go Wow. This is so much awesome. Right? Then go into a modern and enterprise. It's not going to be overnight. Change over. I mean, we might say it's going to take about a decade. We fell from the beginning that cloud operations once you taste cloud you realize this is a new operating model. There's a lot of benefits to that, but to change it over in the enterprise, and that turned out to be what everyone's now do it. But that was three years ago. >> Well, there's implications. So if its operations then operations is inherently an end end proposition, you can't have operations in a silo. Things like you're monitoring tools. How do you do cloud monitoring it on premises monitoring. How do you do workflow Execution? How do you do? You know, automation, whether that's event driven or even just scripted. If you have wildly different environments that require you to buy for Kate, your investment, then there's a very real There's a complexity that comes with that your people have tto do more than one thing that's that's hard. There's a cost that comes with that because you have different teams for different things. There's a lack of coordination. I don't think you unlock the value of cloud in that in that environment. And I think that operational pieces really around converging on >> Michael your point about people in technology. It's so right on. We see that all the time where I'm a technology Optimus. I love technology, but I totally agree that people can really destroy it looked fake news. It's just, you know, it's infrastructure network effect with bad content policy because Facebook's immediate company not a platform >> well, technology's only is good on our end are >> gonna run. The government don't even have the Internet work. So you know when you when you go to the cloud, same >> knowledge just also want the government to come away with that we do it >> where the government just doesn't know how the Internet works. Some people that do but like the good hearings, it's ridiculous. But you know, there's a real D o. D project going on future military Jet I contract. We've been reporting on where modern data driven application workloads. I could use a soul, cloud or multi class so that the dogma of what multi vendor was in the old days is changing. >> I don't I actually don't know if you look at multi cloud. If it's an end end proposition, then by definition it's also going to be multi vendor like there's no future where it's like end in all one vendor. I think we have to come to grips with that is an industry. But I think if you're clinging to your you know, kind of I want my single procurement vehicle. I want my single certification. By the way, I think if you believe fundamentally that incumbency is going to be that your path forward, I think it's a dangerous place to be. That's not to say that. I think the incumbents all go away. I don't There's a there's a heavy rule to play but certainly were going to open things up. And >> you see procurement modernized. I mean, I mean, government goes back to nineteen ninety five procurement standards, but either the enterprise procurement moving So the text moves so fast. Procurement still has rules from >> so no, I don't think all >> of the second right. >> Then there's a whole A procurement in our industry is driven by our peace. Our peace tend to be derivative. I take my last r p. I had some new lines. If you want Esti n so you take the cup copy and paste five hundred seventy four lines at the five hundred seventy fifth line. S T n. You're gonna end up in the same solution because the first five seventy four of the same I do think we should learn a little bit from what the big public cloud cos they're doing, which is, you know, tightening refreshed cycles, retiring things with as much passion as they introduced new things tightening up. Ultimately, what gets deployed? Maintaining diversity of underlying components so you could maintain economic leverage when you're doing procurement. But then solidifying on operationally streamlined model, That's I think that's the future. That's certainly what we've been on as a company. I think that's what we're betting on with Nutanix From a partnership point of view, I think we'LL be on the right side of change on that, and I think it's going to, you know, it may take some time to play out. That's where I think things go >> well. Michael Bushong. Always a pleasure having you on the Cube. Thank you for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. You are watching the Cube

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's the Cube, covering KubeCon andCloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you buy Red Hat, the CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. (background crowd chatter) >> Okay welcome back everyone, live here in Seattle forKubeCon and CloudNativeCon. This is the Cube's coverage, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. We've got two great guests, Chris Wright CTO of Red Hat, Scott Sneddon who's the senior director ofcloud at Juniper Networks, breaking down, windingdown day one of three days of coverage here. Rise of kubernetes, rise of cloudnatives, certainly impacting IT,open source communities, and developers. Guys, thanks for coming on the Cube. Appreciate it. It's good to see you. >> Yeah, good to see you. >> Welcome to the Cube. Okay, so, talk aboutthe relationship between Red Hat and Juniper. Why we're here, what are we talking about? >> Well, we're here to talkabout a combined solution. So, Red Hat's bringingkind of the software platform infrastructure piece and Juniper's bringinga networking component that ties it together.>> Yeah. >> So, we do have a fairly, well, in tech terms arelatively long history of working together. We've had a partnership for a little more than two years on sometelco Cloud initiatives around OpenStack, using the right OpenStackplatform with Contrail Juniper's contrail solutionas an SDN layer for these telco Cloud deployments. And have had a lot of successwith that partnership. A lot of large and smallto medium telco's around the world have deployed that. Earlier this year at theOpenStack summit in Vancouver, we announced an expandedpartnership to start to address some enterprise use cases. And, you know, naturallyopen shift is the lead technology that we wanted to tie in with around enterpriseadoption of cloud and some alternatives to someof the legacy platforms that are out there. >> And we were talkingearlier in the Cube here, we always get kind ofthe feel of the show, kubernetes maturing? But it kind of two worlds colliding and working together. A systems kind of view,almost like operating systems. The network systems, allkind of systems thinking. And then just apps. Okay, the old app thing. So these old legacy worldthat we all lived in kind of happening in really dynamic ways with the apps aren't thinkingabout what's below it. This is really kind of whereyou guys have a tailwind with Juniper.>> Yeah. Because you still gotto make things dynamic, you still got latency, onpremises not going away. You got IOT, so networkingplays a really big thing as software starts figuringthings out as kubernetes. Let's talk about that. Where is that value? How's it expanding? Cause clearly you stillneed to move packets from A to B.>> Yeah. Be more efficient with it. Apps going to have policy. >> The, well, I mean you've still got to, the network is always been the foundation of technology or at least for the last 20 plus years. And as cloud has been adopted, really we've seen network scale drive in different ways. The mega scalers thathave built infrastructure that we've been enabling for quite a while and have been working withthose customers as well. We've been developing a lot of simplified architecture just forthe physical plumbing to connect these things together. But what we've seen andis more and more important is, you know, it's all about the app, the app is the thing that'sgoing to consume these things. And the app developerdoesn't necessarily want to worry about IP addresses and port numbers and firewall rules and things like that, so how could we justmore simply extract that? And so, you know, we'vebeen developing automation and aimed at the networkfor quite a while, but I think more andmore it's becoming more important that theapplication can just consume that without having to directthe automation at the app. And so, you know, groupslike CloudNative foundation and a lot of the workwith kubernetes are on network policy, let's us use CloudNativeprivatives and then we can translate into the network primitives that we need to deploy to move packets, you know, IP addresses and subnets. >> And Chris, talk aboutthe multi cloud dynamic here because again, the dayof things are moving around the standardizationaround those core value propositions, youmentioned about networking and software networks, all kinds of software, you know, venations under the covers. I'm a customer, I havemultiple clouds now. This is going to be a core requirement. So you got to have a a clean integration between it. >> There's really two things. If you look at a modern application, you got your traditionalmonolithic application and as you tease itapart and into components and services, there's only one thingthat reconnects them and that's the network and so insuring that that's as easy to use as an applicationdevelopers focus is around the app and not aroundnetwork engineering is fundamental to a single cluster. And then if you have multiple clusters and you're trying to take advantage of different specialtiesin different clouds or geo replication or things like this that also require thenetwork to reconstitute those applications across thedifferent multiple clouds. If you expect your applicationengineers to become experts in networking, you're just sort ofsetting everybody up with misset expectations. >> It slows things down,requires all these other tasks you got to do. I mean it's like a rock fetch. You don't want to do it. Okay, stack a bunch of rocks, move them from there to there. I mean, this is whatthe holy grail of this infrastructure's code really is. >> Yeah.>> Yeah. I mean, that's the goal. >> Help connect the dots for us. When you look at multicloud networking obviously is a very critical component, what're your customers looking for? How does this solution goto market for your company? >> Absolute ease ofuse is top of the list. So, it can't be overly complicated. Because we're alreadybuilding complex systems, these are big distributive systems and you're adding multipleclusters and trying to connect them together. So ease of use is important. And then something that'sdynamic and reflects the current application requirements, I think is also really important. So that you don't over utilize resources in a cloud to maintainsort of a static connection that isn't actually needed at that moment. I'm sure you probably havea different perspective. >> Yeah, I mean, this isthe whole concept of SDN and network virtualization, a lot of the buzzwordsthat have been around for a few years now, is the ability to deliveron demand network services that are turned on whenthe application asks for it and are turned off when the application's done with it. We can create dynamic connectionsas applications scale. And then with a lot of thenewer things we've been doing around contrailand with Red Hat are the ability to extend thoseapplications environments with networking andsecurity into various cloud platforms. So, you know, if it's runningon top of an openstack environment or in a public cloud or, some other bare metal infrastructure, we're going to make surethat the network and security primitives are inplace when the application needs it and then get deepervisioned or pulled out when they go away. >> Being at a show like this, I don't think we need to talktoo much about open source, because that's reallycore and fundamental, but what we're doing here, but I guess, how doesthat play into customers? We've been watching the slow change in the networking world, you know, I'm a networking guy by background, used to measure changesin networks in decades and now it feels like we'removing a tiny bit faster, >> Little bit. >> What're we seeing is--? >> Well, I mean the historyof openness in networking was the ITF>> Standards. >> and IEEE and standards bodies, right? How do we interact? We're going to have ourlittle private playground and then we'll makesure to protocol layer, we can interact with each otherand we call that openness. But the new openness is open source and transparency into the platform and the ability tocontribute and participate. And so Juniper shifted a lot of our focus, I mean we still haveour own silicone and the operating system we built on our routers and switches, but we'vealso taken the contrail platform, open sourced it a few years ago, it's now called thetungsten fabric project under the Linux foundation. And we're activeparticipants in a community. And our customers really demand that. The telco's are drivingtowards an open source model, more and more enterpriseswant to be able to consume open source software with support, which is where we come in, but also be able to have an understanding of what's going on under the covers to participate if that's a possibility. But really drivinginteroperability through a different way then justa protocol interaction and a standards body. >> I can see how kubernetescan be a great fit for you guys at Juniper, clearly out of the boxyou have this kind of inter cloud, inter networking, paradigm that you're used to, right? How does the relationshipof Red Hat take it to the next level? What specifically areyou guys partnering on, where's that, what'sthat impact on customers? Can you just give a quick explanation, take a minute to explainthe Juniper Red Hat-- >> Well a lot of itcomes down to usability and ease of use, right? I mean what Red Hat's done with open shift is developed a platformleveraging kubernetes heavily, to make kubernetes easierto use with the great support model and a lot of tooling built on top of that to make thatmore easily deployable, more easily developersto develop on top of. What we're doing withcontrail is providing a supported version ofour open source project and then by tying thesethings together with some installation tools and packaging and most importantly a support model, that let's a customer have the proverbial single throat to choke. >> Have you ever hadcustomers that can run beautifully on your platform? >> Yeah yeah, and theinstallation process is seamless, it's a nob that installtime to consume contrail or some other networking stack and they can call Red Hat for support and they'll escalate toJuniper when appropriate and vice versa. And we've got all those things in place. >> I think one of the things that we have like shared vision on is, the ease of use andthen if you think about two separate systems with a plug in, there's going to be someintegration that needs to happen and we're lookingat how much automation can we do to keep thoseintegrations always functional so that ifwe need to do upgrades, we can do those together instead of abandoning one side or the other. And I think another areawhere we have shared vision is the multi cloud space where we really see the importance for our customer base toget applications deployed to the right locations. And that could be takingadvantage of different pricing structures in different clouds or it could be hardwarefeatures of functionality. Especially as we getinto edge computing and really creating a differentview of computing fabric, which isn't quite so, you know, client serveror cloud centralized, but much more distributed. >> I like how you said that Chris, earlier about how when you decomposethat monolithic app it connects with the network. That's also the other way around. Little pieces can cometogether and work with the network and then form in real time, whether it's an IOT datacoming into the data center, or pushing computdata to the edge, you got to have that network interaction. This is a real CloudNative evolution, this is the core. >> Yeah, and I think anotherpiece that we haven't touched on as much, Scott mentioned it, was the security component. >> Yeah, explain that. >> Again, with as youdecompose that application into components, you surface those components with APIs, those were internal APIswhen they're now exposed externally security really matters. And having simple policythat describes not just the connectivity topologybut who can speak to whom is pretty fundamentally important. So that you maintainsecurity posture and a risk profile that's acceptable. >> And then I think it'sreally important is, your traditionalenterprise starts to adopt these CloudNative models. You've got a securityteam there that might not necessarily be up to speed or on board. So you've got to havetooling and visualization and analytics to beable to present to them that policies are being enforced correctly and are compliant and all those things so. >> Yeah and they're tough customers too. They're not going to, they expectreally rock solid capability. >> They don't let youjust deploy a big flat network with no policy-- >> Hey what about the APIs? Service areas exposed in the IOT space. >> Yeah.>> Right. >> You got to nail it down. >> Yeah absolutely, sothat's a lot of what we're bringing to the table here, is a lot of Juniper'shistory around developing security products. >> Take a minute to explain,I want to give you some time to get a plug in for Juniper. I've been following youguys for a long time. Junos back on the old days, contrail. Juniper's has had a software, big time software view. >> Yeah. >> Explain the DNA of software at Juniper. >> You know the earlydays of Juniper were, we weren't the first networkvendor on the market. There was already somebodyon the market in the mid 90s that had a pretty solid stronghold on carrier and enterprise networking. We had to come in with a better model. Let's make the box easierto use and simpler. Let's make the interfacea little more structured and understandable. Let's make it programmable, right? I mean the first feature request for Junos was to have a CLI becausethe first interaction to it was just an API call. And that was out of the box from day one. We had to write a user interface to it just to fit in to theexisting network world in the mid 90s. And so we've alwaysbeen really proud of the Junos operating systemthat runs on our boxes. We've really been proudthat we've had this one Junos concept of a commonoperating system on every network device that we deliver. As we've started tovirtualize those network devices for NFE and things like that, it's again that same operatingsystem that we deliver. Contrail came to us through acquisition, so it's not Junos in and of itself, but still leveraging a lot of those same fundamentals around,model driven configuration management, understandableAPIs, and openness that we've always had. >> Cloud operating modelthat everyone's going to, the common operating modelfits in that unification vision that you guys have had. >> Yeah absolutely. >> And really early, by the way, was before SDN was SDN, I think that was SDN's kind of like-- >> I like to dry, I-- >> Should have called it SDN. >> Right, I described SDN as just a big distributed router andreally we've had big distributed routers for a long time. >> John, we are in Seattle, everything we're talkingabout in tech is hipster. >> Chris, great stuff. Great to have you on, Scott. Great smart commentary. CTO Red Hat, you guys are winning. Congratulations on the betsyou made at kubernetes early, >> Yeah. >> CoreOS great acquisition,great team there, and some news there aboutsome dealings out back into the C and CF, soI mean, you've got it-- >> A lot going on. >> A lot going on. And yeah, big news with that other things, I can't remember what it was, it was some big-->> Something in there. >> Something for a million dollars. >> Great news out there. Thanks for coming out, appreciate it. Good to see you.>> Good to see you. >> Alright, breakingdown day one coverage. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. Day two starts tomorrow. Three days of wall towall coverage of KubeCon. And they're shutting down the hall. Be right back and see you tomorrow. Thanks for watching. (techy music)

>> Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering AWS re:Invent 2018, brought to you by Amazon Web Services, Intel, and their ecosystem partners. (techy music) >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're at AWS re:Invent 2018 in Las Vegas, day two of four days of coverage. I think we'll do 120 interviews. I mean, this is the most poppin' show in tech right now. We're really excited to be here, and joined by my cohost, Lauren Cooney. Lauren, great to see you. >> Thank you. Great to see you, too. >> And we've got... (chuckling) We've got our next guest, it's Disha Chopra, she's a senior manager, product line manager for Juniper Networks, welcome. >> Thank you, feels great to be here. >> Good. >> So, what do you think of this show, have you been to re:Invent before? >> Oh, my God, no, this is my first one, and I am so excited. The energy is so great, it's vibrant, I'm learning a lot, I'm very happy to be here. >> So, Juniper's been around for a long time, way predating this cloud, this whole cloud thing, so what are you guys up to, what's the latest, and really, why are you here at re:Invent? What's your story with AWS? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I think the latest thing with us is as early as today there was... We were posted on the AWS partner solution website. Vodafone is partnering with Juniper for their SD-WAN offering with, you know, the SD-WAN controller that's sitting in AWS, managing all their branch offices, so that's what's the newest with us, and you know, we've been making waves with a lot of partnerships recently. Couple of months ago, or maybe just a month ago, we announced with Nutanix, so that announcement was focused more for our enterprise customers. Integration with Nutanix is a hyperconverged infrastructure where Juniper will be, you know, integral part of their networking, providing for their converged infrastructure, and then before that, I think a few months ago we had Red Hat. We announced a partnership with Red Hat, and you know, that's focused on our telco cloud. So, as you were mentioning, Juniper's been around for a long time-- >> Right. >> And you know, telco clouds are our strong suite. Telcos, now telco cloud, right, and similarly for enterprise. If you think about it, you know, large enterprises and telcos, they're not that different, right? So, that's where we were at, and that's more kind of... We're following the evolution like our customers are, right? They used to be telco, now they're telco cloud. Juniper, I think the newest thing with Juniper, to be honest, in technology I spoke about partnerships, but it's our cloud-first strategy. That's what we have in mind. We are evolving with our customers, helping them in their journey for cloud adoption, cloud migration, right? It's a couple of sentences to say that, "Oh, we're helping our customers with cloud migration," but we're, you know, there's so many steps in between. They are very complex, you need a lot of handholding, and we're right there for our customers. >> So, what does that actually mean when you are, you know, saying that you're helping your customers? Are you working with them to bring them multicloud solutions from AWS and Microsoft and Google, or you know-- >> Correct, exactly. >> Can you give me a scenario or a use case? >> Yeah, absolutely, so like I was saying, traditionally, Juniper was, you know, a hardware-focused company, so our existing customer base, they bought a lot of big, heavy boxes from us, and of course, on top of it came a world class routing and switching software component, right, and it was all bundled up and sold together. Now, you know, they're moving towards the cloud, towards AWS, towards GCP, towards Azure. We want to be able to provide to them, and who better to provide this service to them. We understand their on-prem network. We understand cloud networking. We understand the transport in between. So, what we're doing is for our customers we manage their existing on-prem network, which you know, a lot of our customers, you know, they're huge and they have a significant amount of footprint, global footprint, right, so we understand that, we're able to connect them to the AWS, to the GCP, to the Azure, right, and the value proposition for them is that if they wanted to do it themselves they have to understand, you know, three different or five different clouds, right. You have IBM, you have DigitalOcean. There's a lot out there, right, and getting the opecs or getting the talent to be able to understand all these things and do the migration, it's hard, right? This is a complex problem to solve, so what Juniper brings to the table is we abstract it out. So, for example, I wanted to move-- >> Yeah, well I just want to say, you know, one of the things that you're talking about here, and this is a total switch, if I'm right, is are you becoming a managed service provider? >> We do have a managed service-- >> Because it sounds like you're going to be putting a lot more money into that side of the business-- >> Correct. >> Versus the straight-up product side of the business. >> Yeah, yeah, that's where we are pivoting from, you know, we want... Our perception used to be that we're a hardware company, now we're a cloud-first company. We're a software company, so we're definitely pivoting towards the, you know software-based solutions, software-based, you know, offerings. It's like your iPhone, right, or your phone. You buy the hardware but you're really buying it for the iOS or for the applications that run on it. Networking is following a similar paradigm now, right? The hardware boxes, they're definitely our bread and butter still, but it's the software now that's enabling and giving it all the cool factor and the innovation that's happening, it's all in the software. Contrail, that's our story for multicloud. That's one of our product offerings. So, what Contrail does is, and I think that's what I was kind of referring to earlier, it gives you that higher level of abstraction where you don't have to worry about: "Is my workload running in AWS? "Is my workload running in GCP?" It doesn't matter, right, you as a enterprise, or as a telco, we want you to focus on, you know, powering your applications, powering your services. We don't want you to worry about your infrastructure, that's our job, right? We want to completely hide all the complexity away from you, and just, you know, let you do what generates revenue. >> So, as an application developer, right, so I'm an application developer and I use Azure, for example, right-- >> Yeah. >> And that's kind of my platform, and I'm, you know, doing some interesting stuff with like, you know, some scripting, or I'm building, you know, just a general, like, new website or something like that with, you know, a couple different things. So, as a developer at that level, I don't even know about Contrail. >> Exactly, exactly. >> Exactly, but I don't think Contrail yet extends up to that layer where it can manage everything across multiple clouds. >> So, it provides you as a developer, like you said, you're writing an application, you don't care about the infrastructure. It's just there, right? >> Mm-hm. >> And we want to keep it that way. Contrail is there, Contrail is at that level. Contrail is going to provide the plumbing, so you as a developer, today everything, all developers are moving towards containers, right? So, for example, the Red Hat partnership that I brought up earlier, that's focused on the Red Hat OpenShift platform, their path service, which is a container-based service. Contrail integrates with Kubernetes, we integrate with Mesos, we integrate with Docker. So, as a developer, when you employ these tools to write your code, you know, using a CICD platform, Contrail is sitting right under it, giving you that connectivity. So, for example, when you're developing your application and (clearing throat) you know, you deploy it, you deploy part of it in Azure, you deploy part of it in AWS, right, and you don't care where it goes, you just-- >> Or you use one for, like, bursting or something like that. >> Exactly, yeah, yeah. >> You know, the rest of it on-prem. >> Correct, so-- >> That sort of thing. >> You know, it's distributed, right? So, who's going to plumb it and make sure that it's giving you the results that you need? That's where Contrail comes in. Gives you that plumbing between on-prem, between AWS. >> So, how is that different from Kubernetes as a whole? Like, I know that it's, you know, it does like container management, orchestration, deployment-- >> Correct. >> Delivery, how does-- >> Right. >> Contrail kind of come in and work with Kubernetes? >> Right. So, great question, by the way, you know your stuff, so (laughing) Kubernetes is... Kubernetes is orchestration for your workloads, right? It's services, Kubernetes provides a service, like it gives you a service web. You deploy a bunch of Kubernetes minions, they all work together to give you that application that you need. Now, what Contrail does is it provides the networking between those Kubernetes pods. So, let's say you want to scale up your application. Okay, you had 10 pods, now you want to go to 20. Kubernetes makes that decision for you that you need the 20 pods, and then Contrail is sitting under it giving you the networking for those 20 pods. So, when those 20 pods spin up, Kubernetes pokes Contrail and says, "Hey, 20 more, and these need to talk to "those 10 pods that were already there," right? >> So, Contrail is opensource, right? >> Correct. >> Why haven't you donated it yet to the CNCF? >> (chuckling) We are part of CNCF, we recently-- >> I know that. >> Yeah. >> But fundamentally, if you want that to be pulled as much as you do... >> Yeah. >> It's already opensource. >> Yeah, you're right. >> You might as well kind of get on that thread with the Kubernetes folks-- >> Right, yeah. >> And start talking to them about how you make it part of, you know, the core distribution that then goes into, you know, six different distro. >> Correct, correct, yeah. >> You know, something along those lines versus don't start your own distro. (chuckling) >> Sorry. >> Right, don't start your own distro, but look at how you can become integrated into that Kubernetes stream, the main stream. >> Correct, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, that is definitely something that, like you're saying, it's something that we, you know, we want to do, that's the direction that we want to go at, but I think the actual decision is maybe above my pay grade, so I don't (chuckling) want to make a commitment here. >> Fair enough. >> So, you know... (chuckling) >> Disha, I want to followup on a slightly different track. When you talk about cloud-first, and you answered the question, which is when you say cloud-first, is that, you know, kind of the way you're going to market with your customers, or is that the way you guys are looking at Juniper in terms of transforming the company? >> Mm-hm. >> And it sounds like you said it's more of the latter, really starting to reformulate Juniper-- >> Correct. >> As a cloud first service company. >> Exactly. >> So, how is that transformation going inside the company, that's a pretty significant-- >> It is, it is, yeah. >> Shift from selling boxes and maintenance agreements and-- >> Yeah. >> Shipping metal. >> Yeah, we are definitely modernizing from within, right, but a lot of it is driven by our customers. Like I was saying, you know, they are evolving, they want to connect to the cloud, and you know, we obviously want to help them do that. As part of that, we want to be microservices-based, right, because we want to be able to support containers. These are just things that, you know, we need to do. Juniper is a leader as far as, you know, innovation and networking is concerned. >> Right, right. >> So, it was never a question of if we want to do this, or if we want to go down this path or not, right, it's when, right? >> Right, right. >> And we are definitely working day in and day out to make that happen, so you know, a lot of our offerings, like recently we came out with our containerized SRX solution. SRX is our full-feature, full-service, next generation firewall, and we have containerized it, right. I believe it's the first offering of its kind, containerized, host-based firewall, so you know, innovative stuff happening all the time. Like you said, you know, it's definitely a Herculean task-- >> Right, right. >> But we're up for it-- >> Right. >> And we're doing it. >> And I'm just curious to when the customer conversations-- >> Yeah. >> You know, the hybrid cloud, multicloud, public cloud conversation, right, it's a lot of conversation. How do you take your customers down the path? Where do you see them, you know, trying to navigate in what's got to be a pretty complex world for-- >> It is, definitely. >> A CIO trying to figure out what they're supposed to buy and not buy, how to pay attention, can I hit all the booths-- >> Right, right, right, right. >> Here at AWS in three days, I don't think so. >> (laughing) I know, yeah, these conversations, to be honest, have been going for the past couple of years, right. A lot of our customers, the intent is there to move to the cloud, and you know, we are trying to help them with it, so you know, we design with them. We design their network, we design their topologies, we handhold them telling them how to do this, right, their existing networks that they have. The complexity comes in because everything, right, think of a company, right, a large company. It then goes ahead and acquires 10 more, and they all have their own networks, they all have their own environments, VMware, Red Hat, you know, Tabix, so different kinds of environments now all need to connect to the cloud. You don't want them to be siloed. You also don't want to deal with, you know, all those different kinds of, like I was saying, you know, skillset to be able to connect them all individually. So, when we talk to our customers, that's what we tell them, that you know, with a Juniper-based solution we have so many of them that work together in a cohesive way to give you that end-to-end connectivity. Secure, automated multicloud, that's our mantra, right, and it's as far as, you know, engineering is concerned, engineering simplicity. If you come down to Juniper it's plastered all over the walls, right, engineering simplicity. We were really driving that message internally so that... And a lot of the CICD stuff, right? The way we want our customers to use it is how we're using it, so that, you know, that improves our quality, that improves reliability, and all those things. So, in terms of handling our customers, we talk, you know, we're there on the table day one. We talk to them about their design. I see that a lot of our customers, currently where they're at is they are trying to connect to the cloud. They all want to move towards the container, you know, the containerized services. They know that's the right thing to do. They're not quite there yet, right? The intent is definitely there, they're playing with it, but in terms of being in production, we're still, you know, a little bit off. Not too much, but we'll get there soon, right. So, we talk to them, we talk about, you know, how they can make their applications cloud ready. There's a couple of ways to do it. You lift and shift, or you know, directly move, go cloud native. >> Right, right. >> So, we have all these discussions with them. You know, what fits their bill, right? What is good for them, what is it that's going to work for them? And then, you know, of course the connectivity piece, right, but with it security, reliability, and scale. Right, a company like Juniper obviously, you know, innovator in networking, we solve problems at a different level, right? >> Right, right. >> For our much larger customers. So, we talk to them about scale, we talk to them about, you know, reliable security is huge, right. You have a workload that you spun up on-prem, and then, now, you know, you have... Your requirements have changed, you're going to have to replicate it, say, in AWS. When you replicate it, you still want the same security that you had on-prem to apply to this workload, which is now going to be in AWS, how do you do that? It's easy with Contrail, right, because it's intent-driven. You specify the intent, in fact, you specified the intent when you brought up the first workload, and it captured it, "Okay, I'm supposed to talk to..." You know, say I'm workload red and I can only talk to other red workloads and I cannot talk to the blue workloads, something like that, right? >> Right, right. >> So, you specify the intent, and then when that red workload now comes up in AWS, it already knows that I wasn't supposed to talk to the green workload, so that policy and all the intent moves with that workload. >> Right, right. >> And this is all done through Contrail, right, and the other thing, that single pane of glass. I'm sure you've heard about it a lot today, right. The single pane of glass, you specify it one time. Again, the abstraction away from all those, you know, five clouds that you're working with, you specify the red workload, the policy for the red workload one time, and then it doesn't matter where you bring it up, Contrail will automatically apply it everywhere, and you know, it's good to go. >> That's great. >> Well, Disha, thanks for coming on, you certainly got the energy to attack this big problem, so... (laughing) Juniper's fortunate to have you. >> Great, thank you for having me. >> Thanks for coming on and sharing the story. >> It's been wonderful talking to you guys. >> All right, Disha, she's Lauren, I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE, we're at AWS re:Invent 2018. Come on down, we're in the main expo hall right by the center, thanks for watching. (techy music)

(intense orchestral music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris, and welcome to another CUBE Conversation from our studios in Palo Alto, California. We've got a great CUBE Conversation. One I've been looking forward to for quite some time, with me is Bikash Koley, who is the CTO of Juniper Networks. Bikash, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you very much, Peter, really excited to be here. >> Well, the reason I'm excited about it Bikash, cause you've been at the vanguard of thinking about the role of cloud in business for quite some time. Why? Where've you come from? >> Yeah, so I have been the CTO at Juniper Networks for exactly about a year now. Spent a decade before that at Google. I used to operate Google's production network and boy, it has been a journey. >> Oh, I'm sure. >> I joined Google the year after Google acquired YouTube, when it was a tiny little video service company, search was growing. The way I describe my experience at Google is I saw necessity as the mother of invention like in front of me, because a lot of what we had to build there we had to build out of necessity because we're scaling at a pace, or scaling to an extent globally, that hasn't happened before. And if you really think of what is the core of that scaling? It was almost always data. Whether it was indexing the whole internet which was growing, it was doubling every year at the time. Or, whether it was this little video service called YouTube, which was growing at a crazy pace. The core to it was how do you manage this volume of data both ingestion processing and distribution? And the core to that was always network. The interesting part was a lot of the technologies that are used for really both consuming and distributing data today, did not exist in those days. >> Well from the outside, one of the things that's fascinating about Google is it always looked like what it was doing with technology made sense, and so it might've been a degree of chaos and emergence, which is kind of what the necessity of invention kind of ends up looking like. >> Yes. >> But your contributions to opensource, your diffusion of knowledge about what you were doing was so advanced and so different that it became kind of the beacon, kind of the lighthouse for thinking what the future of cloud was. >> Yes. >> Now I'm going to make an assertion here, and here's my assertion: That in many respects cloud really is the programming model for networks. >> Yes. >> Would you agree with that? And then I'm going to ask you about how you're going to transfer all this knowledge into Juniper to help other customers? So starting with that notion, is cloud really the programming model for networks? >> It actually is the programming model for any data and application, and network is a key part of that. Out of the description that I've used often is there're three characteristics that if you omit in an infrastructure that is around either IT or applications, then I call it a cloud. It is ubiquitous, it is reliable, and it is fungible, right? And if you think about it, it's the same three characteristics that you find in all the utilities that you rely on day in and day out. You find that in electric grid, you find that in water. I have a term for it, I call it invisible infrastructure. >> Well hold on, when you say fungible then, just to make sure, >> Yes? >> You're saying that fungible in the sense that the service that you're using is the service that you're paying for. >> That is correct. >> Okay. >> And you can get to use the resource for the service that you need. >> Got it. >> And not pre-build everything on day one, right? Very similar to what we do with electricity. >> So ubiquitous, resilient, fungible. >> That's correct. Now, if you look at how you get ubiquity and resiliency and fungibility, you'll find that it's network that gives you all of that. Ubiquitous because you have a global network, it's fungible because you build this fabric whether inside of data center or connecting your data centers that allows to move resource as they're necessary, right? >> And track your utilization of resource. >> And track utilization, give you security, right? And reliable because every time you build a data center, or every time you build an edge connectivity, you are ultimately giving people or applications multiple ways to access where they're going, right? So network is absolutely key to how something becomes cloud, and I mention that because cloud is almost always used as a term for public cloud. I actually believe, like you said, cloud is a programming model, cloud is an application consumption model, and it's not just about public cloud. It is absolutely applicable to infrastructure that you build on-prem, as long as you're meeting those criteria. >> So we like to say that the notion that you're going to move all your data to the cloud which is kind of the popular concept. >> Yes. >> Is not necessarily, I don't want to say it's wrong, but it's not right. >> Yes. >> That the real way of thinking about it is you're going to move the cloud to where your data's located, and data has very real characteristics, latency, cost, et cetera. >> Absolutely. >> So if we start from that proposition it suggests that it's not like all the networking problems are going to be suddenly the public cloud providers' issues. Every enterprise still has to conceive of how they're going to define their network, because they've got installed machines that aren't going to go away any time soon, they've got new applications that they want to build on data that must remain private, >> Yep. >> Or has local attributes that have to be instantiated. So it means that the notion of networking inside the enterprise remains important. How are you going to help Juniper take that knowledge that you've gained about building great cloud networks, and bring it into an enterprise so that they can take advantage of everything that they need to take advantage of with their networks? >> Yeah, Peter, you're exactly correct. It's that cloud is going to follow data, because ultimately data has gravity, and it's gravity in the form of the cost of moving it, whether the law of the land allows you to move it, whether the physics of it, the latency that you need to the data allows you to be away from where users are, and there's some things that don't change. Your users are where they are. They're not necessarily going to come close to-- >> And those users are not necessarily people. >> They aren't necessarily people. >> Increasingly there are devices and other types of things. >> Absolutely. >> That must be where they are because they're preforming an act that must be performed right there. >> Water meter readers are in water meters, and utility pole readers are utility poles, right? So they need to be what they are. So you're absolutely correct is that cloud has to come to the data, not the other way around, and network has a huge role to play. Going back to what lessons I learned, and am bringing with me, to Juniper, but more importantly to networking for the cloud era. First of all, every infrastructure has a context and it solves a certain problem. So it is a mistake to try and solve every problem the same way. So one of the questions that I get asked all the time as I talk to the CIOs of the Fortune 500 companies is "I'm not that interested in what my peer is building. Tell me how I build a Google or an Amazon or a Microsoft-like infrastructure." And my answer to them always is it's a question of what problem you're solving. >> Mm-hmm. >> Now when they say, I want to build a Google or a Microsoft or an Amazon-like infrastructure I believe they're actually asking for a few properties, not necessarily building it the same way. You actually can't build it the same way because it's always people, process, technology and more than likely an enterprise doesn't have the same software engineers or the same operations folks that a Google or a Microsoft or an Amazon or others like that, Facebook, have, right? So what are the properties? The properties are very applicable to enterprise. First of all, when you're building for scale you cannot treat your infrastructure as pet. You cannot go and configure every single element individually, you have to treat it as cattle. So when you are building a network you are building the network, not the elements in the network, right? And that is the concept of what is now called software defined networking, right? Where an intent driven software model drives what your network does. You cannot scale it out in any other way. >> Mm-hmm. >> Two, when you're building for scale, things will fail because that's the law of probability. If you have 10 times more switches, you're going to have 10 times more the number of failures. It's the nature of the beast, right? What makes your system reliable is the software because the software understands when failure is happening and it does something about that without waiting for a human to go and react, right? You must have software or automation that allows you to scale in that way. Third, you really cannot start separating between what is physical networking and what is virtual networking because if you think of the world that we're going in to, as you pointed out, most enterprises have lots of legacy infrastructure not because they love it but because their business relies on it, right? >> Mm-hmm. >> You still have things that are on bare metal, it's not that you tomorrow decide I'm going to run everything on serverless on Amazon and I'm able to do it. You can't, even though you might want to, right? So it is important to build an infrastructure that respects the legacy and allows you to still build automation and software abstraction-- >> But it's even more than respects legacy. That allows you to generate new options on the value of that legacy. >> Absolutely. >> So that legacy can sustain and increase in value. >> Yes. >> As you add new elements, have I got that right? >> Absolutely correct. It is where, you know, if we use an example you might actually have a database that runs on a traditional NAS database server. You might be building applications that are running on public cloud that needs to access that database because you have all of your customer data there, right? So a key here is build an infrastructure where that set of bare metal servers that might be connecting to a switch or a firewall, gets to talk to a public cloud endpoint that might be running virtual network, right? And that's the power, in my mind, of overlay and really combining overlay and underlay together. These are the ways that public cloud infrastructures have been built. If you look inside an Amazon or a Google or a Microsoft or Facebook, you will see these qualities, right? Where virtual and physical have been blended. Software is used for operation, including automation. Reliability's the key driver as to why you put software and let's not forget the importance of having operators that are comfortable with operating a software stack, not so much a collection of switches and routers, right? Those are really the learning that I believe are very applicable for any enterprise that are building or any service provider that are building large infrastructure. >> That suggests that ultimately, the business has to look at the primary citizen of the network differently? >> Yes. >> The primary citizen used to be the server or the device, or you know, the switch or whatever else, the router? >> Yes, of course. >> We have to move beyond that as these are the assets we're trying to take care of and start thinking in terms of where the data is. A concept that I like to use with clients is this notion of building networks of data. >> Yes. >> And having a software defined infrastructure that's capable of configuring those networks rapidly where the asset that we're worried about is the data, and not the switches. Would you agree with that? >> I would completely agree with you and the key word, Peter, that you mentioned is rapidly. The need of the day is, you know, the days of having more or less static network is gone and what I mean by that is, yes every network is in some ways dynamic, it does stuff in there. >> Sure. >> But in most networks the endpoints have been static. You have this many servers, you have this many pops, you have this many data centers, right? The world that we're in is where, and this is what I meant by fungible when I said it's fungible, right? That my endpoint which was a VM on my data center today or say 'til noon, might become a VM on an AWS or a GCP or a zero instance in the afternoon because that's the most cost effective way for me to run that application. >> Mm-hmm. >> And what enables that is actually network and ultimately if you sort of look at why the concept of Kubernetes has become so popular? Because Kubernetes has tried to do the same thing for compute. It allows you to move compute in a very fungible way, irrespective of where the endpoint is. What my vision of networking really is, is an equivalent for network where network allows you to fungibly move applications and users as needed, on demand, and very rapidly, right? I'm coming back to the key word that you used there. >> I want to build on that, because I think it's a very important concept. When we talk about static endpoints, look the performance of every network goes back to Claude Shannon. The performance of every network is a function of the degree of certainty you have and the various parts and elements of the network. Static at one end, static at another end means you can build a really, really high performance networks at either end. Uncertain in between means you end up with very, very slow wide area networks. >> Yes. >> Software defined, however, allows us to bring more information into that equation so we have better visibility into the patterns, better visibility into the traffic, into the routes so that we can bolster the entire performance of the entire network, have I got that right? >> You got it exactly right. I would go one step further. So there are two camps in networking and I think both are wrong. One camp is it's going to remain in physical network because they are most performant and they give you reliability. The other camp is you don't need physical network, everything is an overlay and I think both are wrong for the following reason; the best distributed systems are built in a way where you apply the right resource that is most cost effective for what you're doing. >> Sure. >> There are resources that are static. You data center, your number of data centers don't change that rapidly. Where you connect to internet providers or other carriers, they don't change rapidly, right? So the best way of building that, is by building physical network with physical routers that does physical packet processing or physical optical gear and so on because that's the most cost effective way of moving bits, data, right? >> Right. And the number of options that you have to worry about in the future is limited. >> Absolutely, exactly, right? But when you are trying to go and tie up endpoints where the endpoints go up and down on demand? A physical network cannot do it. It is just not possible for you to run around the data center and add switches because you decided to have 10% more load on a certain cluster, right? So it has to be virtual. But the key here is that you really cannot have physical and virtual looked at independently because then they're ships in the night. >> That's exactly what I mean, and so the whole notion is to uplift the entire-- >> Yes. >> Software defined can allow us to uplift the performance of the entire thing. >> Yes. >> Because it is an end to end problem. >> Yes. >> And optimize performance at one end point, optimize performance at another end point but not have to pay the performance penalty because we don't have visibility to know what's happening in between. >> That is correct. And use, whether it's a physical network that is forwarding your packets or it's a virtual network that's forwarding your packet, that should really be best run intent. >> Right. >> It should be best all in all. Same thing where I'm doing overlay on a switch. Let's say I'm doing a VX line overlay on a switch in a physical data center? Can be applied to a virtual instance that I'm running on AWS using the same VX line abstraction but now it's not a physical switch anymore, it's a function that I'm offering, right? >> Right. >> And that's key. >> So CIOs have to, they're not trying to build the new AWS, they're trying to take advantage of this notion of scale computing, any service, any data, anywhere, any time, anybody in the context of their business? >> Yes. >> How are you, with Juniper, taking a lot of these concepts which are still, need to be diffused in the industry, and turning that into offers, engagement, new ways of doing things that allow these CIOs to start to envision >> Yes. >> How these principles get applied concretely, discretely, cost effectively to their business? >> Yeah, you know, I was fortunate in having the ability to run a very large cloud network for a long time. >> That would be Google. >> That would be Google, yes. I spent a lot of time with, Juniper's CIO because Juniper runs a pretty large IT, right? One of the things that I hear from him is something that I hear with every single CIO conversation that I have. People have gone into cloud, public cloud, with the expectation of saving money. For most companies, public cloud consumption has been through a shadow IT where some team decided my application just seems to run better in AWS. Same thing with Juniper, by the way. And I'm just going to run it there and when the CIOs start looking at the collective bill that comes from all this cloud consumption, what they realize is that it's actually not a decrease in op ex, it's an increase in op ex because instead of running one infrastructure, you're now running two or three or four. There is also a myth that there is one public cloud. There isn't one public cloud. There is no standard that defines what a public cloud is, and so depending on who you're using, you are really building both expertise on your team as well as applications that are specific to that infrastructure, right? >> And worse, there are economic powers at play that are likely to avoid coming up with that one standard. >> Absolutely, right? End of the day, if I'm a CIO, what I really want is I have the ability to chose between the options that I have that is most economical for me, but it meets my SLA, right? That's what I'm looking for, right? What I want is one cloud but not in the way one cloud is described, it's not one cloud from one provider. It's a cloud infrastructure that looks like one cloud to me so I can use it fungibly, right? That, I believe, is the most critical problem in IT, in the last two decades. >> And isn't it interesting that people continue to think about the idea of virtualizing things in the cloud is at bottom, predicated on the notion of virtualizing, but we still look at the cloud almost as a physical thing? >> Yeah. >> And what you're really describing is no, you need to take that notion, that concept, of virtualizing and extend it to your cloud utilization as well. >> Absolutely. >> And it's the network that's going to make that real. >> Absolutely, and so what we have been building in Juniper, there are some pretty interesting asset that Juniper had much before I joined Juniper. Juniper acquired a company called Contrail before. Juniper has invested a lot of energy in taking all the routing and the firewall stack and completely virtualizing it so that you can take an SRX firewall and you can run it on AWS, the same way it would run on a data center. Or take RMX router and run it as VMX as a gateway for cloud. And then Contrail, which originated in really telco NFV has one of the most performant SDN stack that is out there. What we did is we took this asset and we're really delivering on the promise of physical and virtual are the same. So Contrail has been expanded to support, obviously the virtual network which is the SDN that it does but it now incorporates physical switches and router from Juniper and from our competition. And the second part is important because if I'm a CIO, I don't want to run a cloud that is Juniper cloud, and a cloud that is somebody else's switches and routers. It's fundamentally different philosophy from what many of our competition does and we believe very strongly, I believe very strongly, in the philosophy that if you're really going to take a legacy infrastructure and move it forward to what is truly cloud, you got to bring the legacy with you. >> Mm-hmm. >> And if that legacy is not Juniper, it still needs to be supported in the virtualization that we're talking about, right? We are heavily investing into integrating not only the capability that we build for open stack which was VM based and physical servers extending to VMware on one side but also building the most performant Kubernetes networking that is out there. I can tell you that we probably have the most performant Kubernetes networking that you not only can run on prem, which we do with our partnership with Red Hat, but you can also extend the same Kubernetes implementation to all the major public clouds. And what that allows you to do, is all of a sudden you have a network that spans physical and virtual. You have the ability to extend the same overlay from your one prem data center to any of the public cloud ones that you care about. You are able to speed up workload, whether they're VM or whether they're micro services and use the power of open stack on Kubernetes to move it around fungibly in where you need. But the most important bit in all of that is if you're a CIO, what we are most concerned about when you go to public cloud is security because when you ran everything in your data center, you have a pretty good idea of where things reside. Whether you have done perimeter security or whether you have done zero transfer, a combination, you know what you have. When you're going into an API based model or serverless or you're turning on VMs on public cloud, the concept of localization goes away. So what we're really delivering is network, not only gives you connectivity, it gives you secure connectivity. So we actually have built extensive distributed firewall in our Contrail product and leveraging SRX so irrespective of where you're running your workload, you get the same policy, you get the same security implementation, you get the same visibility, right? >> And very importantly, because certainly the public cloud suppliers have a lot of security. >> Sure. >> So you can have security here, and you can have security there and you're right, you don't have the same visibility into their security but even if you had the same visibility, you still have to connect the two together. >> Absolutely. >> And its the end to end that you're worried about. It's the security in flight? >> Yes, absolutely. And it's the same concept of there isn't one cloud, right? When you describe the same thing-- >> The cloud's defined by the workload. >> Exactly, right? Ultimately your security need to be in description of what the workloads can do. >> Right. >> Not what API I go-- >> And where it needs to do it. >> Absolutely, yes. >> Alright, so this has been a great conversation. I'll give you one last opportunity to kind of say, okay so, where's this end up in three years? You're a CTO, you got to worry about this. Help a CIO understand, let's not say three years, let's say five years, a little bit longer. How is what they're doing right now going to make life better in five years? Give 'em where the new classes of services are coming from, et cetera. >> Yeah. >> What do you think? >> I believe it's a journey and it's important to acknowledge that it's a journey. Different CIOs are in different places of this transformation. I believe in five years, you are going to see a world that is multi cloud, where every CIO is consuming more than one public cloud but they're also operating private cloud in true sense, in the definition that I use. And for CIOs every investment that they make now is going to determine whether they end up in a cul-de-sac where they're stuck with what they know how to operate today or whether they're taking the steps towards the endpoint which is a multi cloud that they can operate in a lot more fungible way. That's the product that we're building. Our goal is to be there when you're ready to take the step and one of the beautiful thing of the Juniper product family is that you are actually not committing to just buying Juniper products because it is multi vendor from day one, it's multi cloud from day one. It also doesn't lock you into just building things on prem, you actually have the ability to go on prem and off prem so use that flexibility and make decisions, build decisions so that it gets you closer to end goal that you have, not where you are comfortable today. >> Well Juniper, by virtue of the situation that Juniper's always been in, has always been a company that focused on connecting, integrating and co-habitating. >> Yes. >> With other technology. >> Yes. >> And it sounds like that remains a core feature of your DNA. >> That is absolutely core. >> Bikash Koley, CTO of Juniper. Thanks once again for being on theCUBE. >> Thank you very much, Peter. >> And once again, I want to thank all our audience for participating in this great conversation. Until we have another opportunity to have a CUBE Conversation, thank you very much. (intense orchestral music)

>> Announcer: Live, from Vancouver, Canada it's the CUBE, covering OpenStack Summit North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Open Stack Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my cohost John Troyer and you're watching the CUBE, the worldwide leader in tech coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program long time friend of the CUBE back from the earliest days, Randy Bias, Vice President with Juniper, Randy, great to see you. >> Absolutely, great to be back with you guys. >> All right, so Randy, we've been talking about, you know, community, and everything's going good and attendance might be down a little bit but how we fit in with containers and kubernetes, and everything, so we expect you to tear everything up for us and tell us the reality of what's happening in this community. >> I'll do my best (laughing). >> All right, so before we get to the kubernetic stuff, you're working on, we used to call it OpenContrail? Which you were involved in before Juniper acquired it, went through a rebranding recently, Tungsten, which I was looking up, came from the word heavy stone, give us the update from the networking side. >> Yeah, so the short history is that there was a company called Contrail, and they created a software defined networking controller, it was acquired by Juniper in 2012, 2013, and then that was open sourced, so Juniper for a long time was running with sort of two editions, Contrail which was the commercial offering, and OpenContrail which was the open source, and then shortly after I joined Juniper, identified that, you know, we really needed to go back to the drawing board on the way that we had organized the community, and transition it from being Juniper-led to community led, and so over the past year, I spearheaded that effort, and then that culminated in us announcing at the end of March at ONS that, you know, OpenContrail was now Tungsten Fabric. We renamed it, we moved it into the Linux foundation, under its governance, and now Juniper is one of many people of the community that have a seat at the table for the management, both from a business and technical perspective, and we're moving forward with a new reinvigorated community. >> Yeah, so networking sits at really the intersection of this multi-cloud world that we're living in. There's so many players trying to be there, you know Cisco, really moving to become more of a software company, when I interviewed their number two guy at their show, he's like, when you think of Cisco in the future, we're not even going to be a networking company, we'll be a software company. VMware, of course, pushed heavy through, then the Nicira acquisition, where does Tungsten fit, kind of compare and contrast for us, where it fits among some of these other offerings out there in the marketplace. >> Yeah, I mean, I think most enterprise vendors are in a similar transition from being a hardware to software companies. We're no different than any of the rest. I think we have a pretty significant advantage in that we have a lot of growth in the cloud sector, so a lot of the large public clouds are our customers and we're selling a tremendous amount of hardwaring to them, so I think we've got a lot longer runway. But, you know, we just recently hired CTO, Bikash Koley, out of Google, and we're starting to see some additional folks out of Google, like my new boss, Morgan, and what that's bringing with it is a very much a software first type perspective. So Bikash and Morgan really built everything for the Google network from the topper rack all the way out to the win and it's almost all software-based, disaggregated, hardware, software, opensource software running on top of white boxes, and so that kind of perspective is now really deep, start beginning to become embedded in Juniper. And at the head of that is Tungsten. So we see Tungsten Fabric as being sort of a tool that we use to create, you know, a global ubiquitous network fabric, that anybody can use anywhere, without talking to Juniper at all, without knowing that Juniper's part of Tungsten, and then as they grow up and they get to a point where they need multi-cloud, they need federation, or they need kind of day two enterprise operations, you know, we have a commercial version and a commercial distribution that they can use. >> Randy, we talked a little bit about OpenContrail and last year, at OpenStack Summit and moving it to a more of a community based governance model, and now that's happened with the Linux Foundation, can you talk a little bit about the role of opensource governance, and corporate governance, and then foundations, and just going forward, you know, what's an effective model for 2018 going forward, for a foundation-led project and maybe in the context of Tungsten Fabric, and how is that looking? >> Yeah, so again, OpenContrail's now Tungsten Fabrics, might be new for some of the viewers, lot of people still coming to terms with that. And so one of the things that we noticed is that, and when many people go and they say, hey, we want opensource first, the AT&T's of this world, part of what they're saying, one of the aspects of being opensource versus we want to be one of many around the table, we want to have a seat at the table, we want to have the option to contribute code back, and we want to feel like it's a group effort. And so that was a big factor, right? It was an opensource project, but it was largely the governance was carried by Juniper, all the testing infrastructure was Juniper, you know, all of the people who made architectural decisions were Juniper, all of the lead contributors were Juniper, and so, going to Linux Foundation was critical to us having a legal framework, for the trademarks, the code, the licenses, the contributor license agreements, are all owned and operated by the Linux Foundation and not by Juniper, so we basically have a trusted third party who can mediate all those things and create a structure, a governance small structure where Juniper has one seat at the table, and all the other community members do as well. So it was really key to getting, to moving to that model to increase people's interest in the project and to really go the next level. There just wasn't any way to do it without doing this. >> All right, so, Randy, let's talk about OpenStack. You were watching the keynote yesterday, you were, you know, in the Twitter stream, >> Randy: I don't usually watch keynotes, man. >> Stu: But you know this community, so-- >> I do know this community (laughing). >> Give us kind of the good, the bad, and the ugly from your standpoint as to, you know, where we've gone, you know, what's doing well, and what you're frustrated as heck that we still haven't fixed yet. >> Well, I mean, it's great that we have so much inroads amongst the carriers, it's great that, you know, that there's a segment that OpenStack has been able to land in. I mean, at some points when I was feeling particularly pessimistic on some days, I was like, oh man, this thing's never going to go anywhere, so that's great. On the other hand, you know, the promise that we had of sort of being the Linux operating center, operating system of the data center, and you know, really gaining inroads into private cloud and enterprise, that just hasn't materialized and I don't see a path to that. A lot of that has to do with history, I'm not sure how much of that I want to go into here, but I see those as being bright lights. I see the Ocata containers effort and sort of having this alternative structure that's more or less like the umbrella structure that I lobbied for while I was on the board. So for several years on the board, I said we need to really look more like the Apache Software Foundation, we need to look less like the Linux Operating System in terms of how we think about things. Not this big integrated monolithic release, you need more competition between projects and that just wasn't really embraced. And I think that that, in a way, that was one of several things that really kind of limited our ability to capture the market that we really wanted, which is the enterprise market. >> Yeah, well, I know, and one of those sticking points there that I've talked to you many times over the years about is how do I actually deploy this? You know, getting a base configuration and scaling this out, simplicity is tough, getting to those environments, you know, getting it up in two weeks, is good for some environments, but maybe not for others. >> Yeah, I mean I think there's sort of a spectrum, right? At one end of the spectrum, you say hey, I'm going to have a very opinionated approach like kubernetes does, and we're going to limit what we say we can do, you know, we're not all things to all people. And I think that opinionated approach, like the Linux operating system worked very, very well. And then other end of the spectrum is we've got no opinion like the Apache Software Foundation, and then it's up to vendors to go and cherry pick the pieces they want and turn that into some kind of commercial offering, whether it's Hortonworks, or Thi-dare or Du-per or whatever it is, the problem is that OpenStack wound up in the middle where it had the sort of integrated monolithic release cycle which it still does, which started to be all things to all people, and it was never as great as it could be, so it's like we got to support Hyper-V, we got to support VMware, and as the laundry list of all things we have to support grew longer, it became more and more difficult to have a compelling, easy to use, easy to scale offering that any enterprise could consume. >> Randy, a lot of talk this week about edge computing, with several different definitions, right? But it does strike me that, you know, there's a certain set of apps, that you write 'em and that they live fine in a big public cloud, and a big data center somewhere. But there's a lot of hardware that's going to be living out in the world, whether that's at the base of a radio tower, or in a wall, or in my shoe, that is going to be running hardware, and is going to be running something, and sometimes that something can be OpenStack, and we're seeing some examples of it, many examples of that already. Is that an area of growth for OpenStack? Is that an interesting part of how this fabric is going to expand? >> Well, I probably have a contrarian view here. So, I spent a bunch of time at Juniper, one of the things I worked on for a while was edge computing and we're still trying to decide what we want to do there and you know, kind of to the first point you made is everybody's edge is different, right? Is it on the mobile phone, is it back in the data center, the difference is that the real estate gets more expensive as you move out, right? And it's in terms of latency, and it's in terms of bandwidth and it's also in terms of cost of storage and compute. There's a move closer to the mobile device that becomes progressively more expensive, and so that's why a lot of people sort of look and say hey, wouldn't it be nice if we can get you out the closer lower latency and bandwidth and so on but as we looked at it, a lot of the different use cases it became really interesting in that, it wasn't clear if there was that much value between 5 milliseconds and 20 milliseconds, right? I mean, that's pretty, either one's pretty close, sure there's a lot of difference between 20 and a 100, but maybe not so much between 5 and 20. And so we kind of came to the conclusion that at least for right now, probably, the bulk of use cases are fine with 20 milliseconds, and what that means is that regional systems like AWS's Lambda at the Edge, they're in metro, those are probably good for most cases. I don't know that you need to be on the tower, I don't know that you need to be in the central office, so I think edge computing is still nascent, we don't know exactly what all those use cases are, but I think you might be able to service most of them from regional data centers, and then the question really becomes what does that stack need to be and if you have a regional data center that's got plenty of power, plenty of space, then it might be that OpenStack is a good solution, but if you're trying to scale down onto the tower, I got to have some doubts about whether OpenStack can really scale down that far. >> Randy, analytics is something we've been seeing, the networking people used for many years, at this show, starting to hear a lot of discussion about AI and ML, would love your view point as to what you're seeing in that space. >> You know I have some friends who started off in AI in very early days and he had a very pessimistic view. He said, you know this stuff comes and goes, but I'm actually very positive and optimistic about it because the way I look at this is there's a renaissance happening which is that, you know, now ML is really available to masses and you're seeing people do really interesting things like, we have a product called AppFormix, and what they do is they take ML and they apply it to operations and I love this because as an operations guy, you know, I used to have these problems in production where something would go out and the first thing I'd do, is I'm trying to do correlation and then root cause analysis, like, what was the actual failure? Like I can see the symptom on this end and now I have to get all the way back to what caused it, and the reality is that machine learning, AI techniques and protocols can do all the heavy lifting for operators very, very quickly and basically surface a problem for somebody to do the final analysis on. And so I do think that ML and AI apply to very specific vertical problems, it is just a place where we're going to see a tremendous amount of revolution in the next couple years. >> All right, and that hits right at really that intersection between kind of the developers and the operators there-- >> Absolutely. >> What are you seeing from an organizational standpoint, companies you're talking to these days, how are they doing adopting that change, dealing with that, you know, often schism or are they bringing those groups together? >> Well, I think you remember that like in the early days, I used bring my deck along and I would talk about assembly line IT versus the robotics spectrum all of IT and I would sort of make that sort of analogy to sort of the car manufacturing process, and I think what machine learning is really going to do is take us to that next level past that right? So we had the assembly line where we have all the specialists, we had the robotics factory where we had people who know how to build a robots and software, and it's really sort of like, just churning out with a lot of people on the line, and I think the next level after that is, you know, completely fully automated applications driving themselves, you know, self-driving applications, and I think that's when things get really interesting, and maybe we start to remove the traditional operator out of the equation and it really becomes about empowering developers with tools that are comfortable and that leverage all the cloud era and stuff that we built. >> All right, so Randy, you're credited with the pets versus cattle analogy, what's the latest, you were talking about some of the previous slide decks, what's Randy Bias looking on down the road? >> I mean, the stuff just comes to me, man. I can't like predict, but the thing I've been talking about a lot lately is services of platform, I think we might've talked about that last time, which is just this notion that if we look at where Amazon's invested and what's interesting, it's certainly not at the infrastructure layer and it's really not at the PAS layer, it's that thick layer in between with like database as a service and NoSQL as a service, and messaging service, and DNS and so on, where you can kind of cherry pick those things as you're assembling your own PAS for your application, and I still think that's the area that is under-discussed, and the reason is is the people back into basically doing that, building kind of the service as a platform system, but they're not like going into it, kind of like eyes wide open. >> Yeah, so just following up on that last piece, one of the criticisms I have this week is when you talk about multi-cloud, most of the people talk about, oh well people are clawing things back to their data centers. Juniper plays across the board, strong partnership with Amazon, yet you're here, what are you hearing from customers, you know, what do you see as kind of the balance there and, you know, the public cloud's role in the world? >> I mean, they're still winning, right? I don't think there's any doubt, I haven't seen a decline back here talking about, but we are starting to enter into the era of, okay, this stuff is out there, and it's running, but I need to find my governance model, I need to understand who's using what, I need to understand what it's costing me, and that's the sign of the maturation process. And so I think that, you know, we saw in the early days of cloud, people jumping the gun, creating compliance services, and you know, SAS products that would basically measure how much you're spending and think that it's time for that stuff to come back in vogue again, because the tool needs to be there for people to manage these extended supply chain of IT vendors which include the public cloud. And I think that the idea that would claw them back as opposed to like just see that as holistic part of what we're trying to accomplish doesn't make any sense. >> Well learned. Well, Randy Bias, always a pleasure to catch up with you. >> John. >> John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of two days of three days of live coverage. Thanks for staying with the CUBE. (bubbly electronic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE! Covering AWS re:Invent 2017. Presented by: AWS, Intel and our ecosystem of partners. (lively electronic music) >> Welcome back everyone, this is theCUBE special exclusive coverage of AWS re:Invent 2017. CUBE's our flagship program, we go out to the events and we extract the signal noise. I'm John Furrier your co-host. With me today is Justin Moore, an analyst. We have two sets here in Las Vegas. Our next guest is Sumeet Singh, Vice President of Cloud Analytics with Juniper Networks, formerly of AppFormix, which was bought about a year ago. CUBE alumni back. New team, Juniper, welcome back. Last time we chatted with you you were entrepreneurial. >> Yeah. >> Taking names, kicking ass, now you're-- >> Bought out Juniper Networks, yeah. >> You bought out Juniper Net, what's going on? >> So we've essentially been building, building more and more and it's actually been a totally awesome experience. So, Last year when we spoke, we were essentially looking at a whole lot of private cloud deployment. Looking at OpenStack, looking at (mumbles), looking at VMware, and since, what we've now started really expanding into is, of course, the multi-cloud and hybrid cloud scenario. And looking at how to secure these clouds on prem, in the cloud, multi-cloud, as well as bring rich analytics into real-time operations insight as to what's going on in all of these environments. And how to optimize them. >> Yeah, that whole multi-cloud hybrid cloud thing is really exploded in the last 12 months. I'm hearing from customers a lot more that they are pursuing a multi-cloud strategy, but it seems that there's just this proliferation of things that you've now got to monitor and secure. So, how are you helping customers to do that? >> So, I mean, you're going to start with the basics. Right? So, the first thing that we got to realize is there are, of course, those companies that are born in the cloud. But then, there's a whole bunch of others who have for long run their own data centers and run their application stacks on prem, who are now looking to migrate to the public cloud and build all that multi-cloud scenario. In that situation, I would say, you need a little bit of hand-holding. You need to understand how your application's running on prem, which ones can be moved to the cloud, how can they be moved to the cloud, you want to ensure that those policies that you were implementing on prem you'll be able to implement those same policies in the public cloud, as well. The monitoring really starts on prem. All of those policies that operation starts on prem, and then you take them and you build them and you >> I'll get your take on, we'll have to get your take too, Justin, on something that's going on that I see clear visibility on. Infrastructure operations, data center cloud, get your house in order, networks, migration, hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, and then all that stuff. Then you've got this developer tsunami going on, a renaissance of real new development, new kinds of development, multiple databases using in app, IoT, so, the software development methodologies are changing for developers. That's obvious. What's the impact to the infrastructure guys, because you're starting to see Lambda and Server List as a way for saying complete infrastructure is code. How does that change the notion of, what the hell the data center is? Because you could argue that's just an edge now. So, what's the software, what are some of the software practices you see that are notable? >> The ones truly amazing, like in all these things that you're saying, is that you no longer need to use one approach to build anything. Any product that we put out, or any service that you put out, now uses a combination of all of these things. It could be Lambda, it could be IoT, it could be a wholesale application that's office started using (mumbles), that's spanning that multi-cloud environment. So, it's the beauty of all of this is the power of choice. We have so much more choice available to us. Right? But then, when choices, with choice comes that explosion and that complexity. It's >> Complexity is key, but speed is also there. You see. So, the question is, at what point does the cream rise to the top, and the people that are slow get run over. >> We're just seeing another evolution in obstruction, really, it's like, we don't write an assembly code anymore. We're writing directly to the hardware. We added in high-level programming languages, and now, in terms of the infrastructure, developers don't care about infrastructure as much as people talk about dev ops, and the thing like dev ops is a thing, developers don't want to deal with the infrastructure. They want to deal with code, cuz that's where they live. And the infrastructure folks, well, a lot of them are actually becoming developers now. So, they're learning how to use tools like, using development tools to actually get their job done. Which is where we're seeing infrastructure is going. So, there's a lot more ob abstraction into pure software, so you don't have to worry about the underlying obstructions, at least, not very much. >> All right, Sumeet, question to you now on that is, that requires the network guys, Juniper, you're part of that, and all the analytics to think differently about what you're instrumenting. To do what he said, to make it free, you gotta enable a lot of policy, a lotta data analytics, take us through what's the current state of the art there. >> So, the current state of the art, is essentially, if you talk about Juniper products, we have our family of SRX products, where you can have on prem firewalls, as well as virtual firewalls in the cloud, and using these tools, you can have consistent policies on prem and in the cloud. You can free up transit VPCs. Then there are the obligations in the multi cloud world, and do all kinds of fancy things. But where we also going with our solutions is to make them much more simpler to consume. It's truly all about simplicity, right? Because now you have all this choice, and you can have Lambda, and you can have all these new ways to bring up your applications. What becomes key is that the policies that you wanna implement become automatic. Right? And the way to do that is, the way we are doing that is, essentially, doing this auto-learning of your environment. Right? Automatically understanding, Automation, right? But, not, automation in two parts, as in automatically detect what's going on, but then automatically apply the policies as well, no matter where the workload is and where it's scaling, we automatically apply the policies to it. >> So, it's a lot of investment in this mart of underly-- Making something simple is actually quite complex to do. So, you need to understand what are the right things to automate, and what are the few things where you actually wanna give humans that choice, without it becoming overwhelming, so that, okay, I have to choose between one of 800 different ways of doing this. That's just not something that humans cope well with, whereas machines are actually really good at that. >> And that's the value here. We want to hide all the complexity under the hood. You know, use those advanced logarithms, use, you know, where they be on prem or in the cloud, but running all the analysis, implementing all the right policies for you, right? And new, new workload comes up it should automatically get the policy, right? And we are now able to do that both in the private data center, as well as in the public cloud, and bridge those policies together for you, automatically. >> The common theme we're seeing in cloud, we had a guest on from Thorn, where they automate, essentially, police officers writing down notes in a notebook to fully spotting with machine learning and all this great stuff, to find missing and exploited children, manual sucks, basically. Manual's slow-- >> The workload's too dominant now for you to think about manual. >> I want real-time. So most organizations, what's going on there? How do you guys help there, what's the progress? >> Oh. So, this is actually a great question, by the way, so, and this is part of the reason why we like, as a company, as a start up, maybe, we're like, doing all this cool stuff, and, you know, not really thinking about all the, hey, this is slowing me down. The reason why we went to Juniper, if you look at the history of Juniper, and the product portfolio, and the stock at Juniper, when it comes to automation, when it comes to things like ABI, when it comes to things like policy, they've always kind of like led the pack in that networking space, and now this is the opportunity to take that that wealth of knowledge, and scale it out, and take it to a little bit broader multi-cloud, hybrid cloud space. But, that's truly where it is, and even if you, kind of like go down low level to the devices, all Juniper devices are able to stream real-time elements. We are able to do ML in real-time, even on the physical devices, right? Similar for all virtual devices, and now, with our Formix, we even bring in the performance and operations inside, from the running infrastructure, whether it's on prem and in the cloud, not just networking, but the compute, the databases, your applications, your clusters, all of that, to build for you this end-to-end view, right? Not just the networks, your servers, Vms, workloads, the underlying network, the connectivity, all of it. >> How does that, because the developers, they live in application land, and again, they don't really care about that infrastructure, but as it turns out, sometimes it's quite useful to know which particular network devices, or what the infrastructure is that underpins things, like where you sometimes need to be able to drop into assembly code to really optimize things, so are you making that information about the infrastructure visible to developers in a way that they like to, to know and consume? >> Absolutely, so, one key thing about, you know, our product portfolio, and how we are releasing our services, essentially, we've wrapped everything around, you know, these role-based access interfaces. Where both the operators are able to get their views, they're able to construct views that the developers are able to see, and then both can implement their own policies, right? If, let's say, there's some infrastructure that's down, or is unhealthy, then having that global topology view helps you in real-time totally, and in real-time informs you what the impact of that outage is. Like who are the developers who would be impacted, what are their obligations? And, you know, we can bring that insight, and consume it to run the automation. So, if, let's just say, some infrastructure's unhealthy, can you read off the graph? >> Sumeet, talk about what you guys are doing here. How's Amazon, big learning conference, but it's a massive show, 45,000 people here, across multiple hotels. A lot of sessions. What do you guys talk about? What's the big cloud piece for you guys? >> For us, really, first, it's just visibility, right? We have a product portfolio that gives you visibility. Like, both for your physical infrastructure, and your virtual structure. Then, the next thing is, of course, You know, yeah, you have the visibility. But then, at our scale, no human can consume all that information. It's too slow. It's too slow. So, you've gotta have the machine-learning built in. So, it's promoting that visibility into insights in real time, and then, it's about how do you secure your workloads? So, consuming all of that insight to implement all of the policies, implement all of the automation, to ensure that everything is running as you want it to. >> What's your Juniper message to the developers here? Is there a new face to Juniper, a new vibe? You mentioned Juniper's always had great products, like, you move packets around at lightning speeds, you know, wire speeds, all that great stuff. How do you, what's new? What's it mean for me as a developer, what is Juniper, how's it make my life easier? >> What's new is that now it's easier for developers to consume our products. Our products are now available in the Amazon marketplace, right? Our visibility products, our machine-learning products, our security products, right? You can just click, install, and start using them. That's new for Juniper, right? I mean, traditionally you would think of-- >> You probably get Juniper goodness just by treating it like a library. >> That's it. You can just download, not even download, right? You're -- >> It's server-less. It's router-less. It's device-less. >> There you go. You can just start consuming them. And then, if you do have that knowledge of how do you use those devices on prem, then you can apply that knowledge in the cloud, and then use them all. >> Must be computing back in, what, like 20 years ago. I mean, is it just like a grid now. >> Oh, yeah, pretty much, yeah. >> It's a fabric. >> It's the same, if you already know how to use it one place, you know how to use it everywhere. >> Yeah, but, I mean, it's, really, the value of the cloud is making it even simpler, right? Running all of that automation, like we talked about Lambda, like even within our products family, we can, we use Lambda to constantly see what's changing, and that's how we process lots of our internal transactions, as well. >> Sumeet, congratulations on your acquisition and your entrepreneurial journey, and now you're at Juniper. Looking forward to keeping in touch. Sumeet Singh, Vice President of Cloud Analytics, and now at Juniper Networks, formerly AppFormix, CUBE alumni, thanks for coming on and sharing your commentary. I'm John Furrier, and Justin Moore, here on theCUBE, main stage in Las Vegas at AMS re:Invent We'll be back with more after this short break. (lively electronic music)

>> Voiceover: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's the Cube, covering OpenStack Summit 2017. Brought to you by the OpenStack Foundation, Red Hat, and additional Ecosystem as support. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman joined by John Troyer. This is Silken Angle Media's production of the Cube at OpenStack Summit. We're the world wide leader in tech coverage, live tech coverage. Happy to welcome back to the program someone we've had on so many times we can't keep track. He is the creator of the term Pets versus Cattle, he is one of the OG of The Cloud Group, Randy, you know, wrote about everything before most of it was done. So good to see you, thank you for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. >> Alright, so Randy, coming into this show we felt that it was a bit of resetting expectations, people not understanding, you know, where infrastructure's going, a whole hybrid multi-cloud world, so, I mean you've told us all how it's going to go, so where are we today, what have people been getting wrong, what's your take coming into this week and what you've seen? >> Well, I've said it before, which is that the public clouds have done more than just deliver compute storage and networking on demand. What they've really done is they've built these massive development organizations. They're very sophisticated, that are, you know, that really come from that Webscale background and move at a velocity that's really different than anything we've seen before, and I think the hope in the early days of OpenStack was that we would achieve a similar kind of velocity and momentum, but I think the reality is is that it just hasn't really materialized; that while there are a lot of projects and there are a lot of contributors the coordination between them is very poor, and you know it's just not the, like architectural oversight that we really needed isn't there. I, a couple years ago at the Openstack Silicon Valley gave a presentation called The Lie of the Benevolent Dictator, and I chartered a course for how we could actually have more of a technical architecture oversight, and just that really fell on deaf ears. And so we continue to do the same thing and expect different results and I just, that's a little disappointing for me. >> Yeah. So what is your view of hybrid cloud? You know, no disagreement, you look at what the public cloud companies, especially the big three, the development that they can do, Amazon, a thousand new features a year, Google, what they can do with data, Microsoft has a whole lot of applications and communities around them. We're mostly talking about private cloud here, it was a term that you fought against for many years, we've had great debates on it, so how does that hybrid play out? Cause customers, they're keeping on premises. Edge fits into a lot of this too, so it's, there's not one winner, it's not a zero sum game, but how does that hybrid cloud work? >> Yeah so, I didn't fight against private cloud, I qualified it. I said if it's going to be a private cloud it's got to be built and look and smell the way that the public cloud was. Alright? If it's just VM ware with VM's on demand, that's not a private cloud. That was my position. And then in terms of hybrid cloud, you know, I don't think we're there yet. I've presented on this at many different OpenStacks, you can see it in the past, and I sort of laid out what needs to happen and that didn't happen. But I think there's hope, and I think the hope comes in the form of Kubernetes, and to a certain degree, Helm. And the reason that Kubernetes with Helm is very powerful is that Kubernetes gives us a computive traction, so that you don't care if you're on the public cloud, or you know OpenStack or Vmware or whatever, and then what Helm gives us is our charts, so ways to deploy services, not just software, and so what we could think about doing in the future is building hybrid cloud based off of Kubernetes and Helm. >> Yeah, so Randy since last time we talked you've got a new role, you're now with Juniper. Juniper had done a Contrail acquisition. You know, quite a few years back you wrote a good blueprint on one of the Juniper forums about the OpenContrail communities. So tell us a little bit about your role, your goals, in that community. >> So OpenContrail has been a primarily Juniper initiative, and we're going to press the reset button on the OpenContrail community. I'm going to do it tonight and call for people to sort of get involved in doing that reset, and when I say reset I mean, wipe the operating system, reload it from scratch, and do it really as a community, not just as a Juniper run initiative, and so people inside Juniper are very excited about this, and what we're trying to do is that we believe that the path forward for OpenContrail is ubiquitous adoption. So rather then playing for just the pieces that we have, which we've done a great job of, we want to take the world's best SDN controller and we want to make sure everybody uses it, because we think aggregate that's good for not only the entire community but also Juniper. >> So, love the idea of kind of rebooting the community in the open, right, because you have to be transparent about these sort of things. >> Randy: Yeah, that's right. >> What are the community segments that you would like to see join you here in the OpenContrail? What kind of users, what kind of companies would you like to see come in to the tent? >> Well anybody's welcome, but we want to start with all of our key stakeholders that exist today, so first one, and arguably one of the most important is our competitors, right so we're hoping to have Mirantis at the table, maybe Ericcson, Huawei, anybody. Cisco, hey come join the party. Second is that we have done really well in Sass and in gaming, and we'd like to see all of those companies come to the table as well, Workday, Symantech, and so on. The third segment is enterprises, we've done well in financial services, we think that that's a really important segment because they're leading edge of enterprises typically, and the fourth is the carrier's obviously incredibly important for Juniper, folks like AT&T, Direction Telecom, all those companies we'd love to see come to the table. And then that's really the primary focus, and then anybody else who wants to show up, anybody who wants to develop in Contrail in the future we'd love to have there. >> Well with open source communities, right, there's always a balance of the contributors and developers versus operators, and we can use the word contributors in a lot of roles. Some open source communities, much more developer focused, >> Randy: That's right. >> Others more operator focused, where do you see this OpenContrail community starting out? >> So where it's been historically is more of our end users and operators. >> I think that's interesting and an interesting twist because I think sometimes open source communities get stuck with just the people who can contribute code, and I'm from an operator community myself, >> Randy: Right. >> So I think that's really interesting. >> We still want all those people but I think what has happened is that when people have come in and they wanted to be more sort of on the developer side, the community hasn't been friendly to them. >> John: Okay. >> Randy: And so we want, that's a key thing that we want to change. You know when we were talking, to certain carriers they came and they said look, it's great you're going to do this, we want to be a part of it, and one of the things we'd like to contribute is more advanced testing around VMFs. And I just look at that and I'm just like that's what we need, right? Juniper is not, can't carry all the water on having, you know, sophisticated test suites for VMFs and more advanced networking use cases, but the carriers are deep into this and we'd love to have them come and bring that. So not just developers, but also QA, people who want to increase the code quality, the architectural quality, and the aggregate value of OpenContrail. >> Okay, Randy can you help place OpenContrail where it fits in this kind of networking spectrum, especially, there's open source things, we've talked about about VPP a couple times on theCube here. The joke for many years was SDN still does nothing, NFV solutions have grown, have been huge use case, is really where the early money for big deployments have been for OpenStack. Where does OpenContrail fit, where does it kind of compare and contrast against some of the other options out there. >> I'm going to answer that slightly differently. I've been skeptical about SDN overlays for a long time, and now I am helping with one of the world's best SDN overlays, and what's changed for me is that in the last year I've seen key customers of Contrail's, of Juniper's actually do something very interesting, right. You've got an SDN overlay, it's complex, it's hard to void, you got to wonder, why should I do this? Well I thought the same thing about virtualization, right, until I figured out, sort of what was the killer app. And what we've seen is a company, one of our customers, and several others, but one in particular I can talk about publicly, Riot Games, take containers and OpenContrail and marry them so that you have an abstraction around compute, and an abstraction around networking, so that their developers can write to that, and they don't care whether that's running on top of public cloud, private cloud, or in some partner's data center globally. And in fact they're going to talk about that today at OpenContrail days at 3:30, and are going to present a lot more details, and that's amazing to me because by abstracting a way and disintermediating the public clouds, you actually have more power, right. You can build your own framework. And if you're using Kubernetes as a baseline you can do a lot more on top of that computing network abstraction. >> You talked about OpenContrail days, again my first summit, I've actually been impressed by the foundation, acknowledging there's a huge landscape of open source and other technologies around there, OpenStack itself doesn't invent everything. Can you talk a little bit about that kind of attitude of bringing, I mean we talk about Kubernetes and that sort of thing, but all the other CNCF projects, monitoring, even components like SCD, right, we're talking about here at this conference. So, can you talk a little bit about how OpenStack can interact with the rest of the open source and cloud native at-large community? >> That's sort of a tough question John. >> John: Okay. >> I mean the reason I say that is like the origins of OpenStack are very much NIH and there has been a very disturbing tendency to sort of re-invent the wheel. A great example is Keystone, still to this day I don't know why Keystone exists and why we created a whole new authentic standard when there were dozens and dozens of battle-tested, battle-hardened protocols and bits of code that existed prior. It's great that we're getting a little bit better at that but I still sense that the origins of the community and some of the technical leadership have resistance to organizing and working with outside components and playing nice. So, it's better but it's not great, it's not where it should be. Really OpenStack needs to be broken down into a lot of different projects that can compete with each other and all run in parallel without having to be so tightly wound together. It's still disappointing to me that we aren't doing that today. >> Randy, wonder if you could give us a little bit of a personal reflection, you've been involved in cloud many years, we've talked about some of the state of it, where do you think enterprises are when they think about their IT, how IT relates to business, some of the big challenges they're facing, and kind of this rapid pace of change that's happening in our industry right now >> Yeah well the pressures just increase. The need to pick up speed and to move faster and to have a greater velocity, that's not going away, that seems to be like an incredible macro-trend that's just going to keep driving people towards the next event. But what I see is that the tension between the infra-structure IT teams and the line of business hasn't really started to get resolved. You see a lot of enterprises back into using DevOps as a way to try to fix the culture change problems but it's just not happening fast enough. I have a lot of concerns that basically private cloud or private infra-structure for enterprises will just not materialize in the way it needs to for the next generation. And that the line of business will continue to just keep moving to public cloud. All the while all the money that's being reinvested in the public cloud is increasing their capabilities in terms feature sets and security capabilities and so on. I just, I don't see the materialization of private cloud happening very well at this point in time and I don't see any trendlines that tell me it's going to change. >> Yeah, what recommendations do you give today to the OpenStack foundation? I know that you haven't been shy in the past about giving guidance as to the direction, what do you think needs to happen to be able to help customers along that journey that they need? >> I don't give any guidance to the OpenStack Foundation anymore, I'm not on the Board of Directors, and frankly I gave a lot of advice in the past that fell on deaf ears and people were unwilling to make the changes that were necessary I think to create success. And even though I was eventually proven right, there doesn't seem to be an appetite for change. I would say that the hard partition between the Board of Directors and the technical committee that was created at the outset with the founding of the Foundation has let to a big problem which is that there's simply business concerns that are technical concerns and there are technical concerns which are business concerns and the actual structure of the Foundation does not allow that to occur because that hard partition between them. So if people on Board of Directors can't actually tell the TC that they'd like to see certain technical changes because they're business concerns and Technical Committee can't tell the Board of Directors they'd like to see business changes made because they're technical concerns around them. And I think that's, it's fundamentally broken until the bylaws are fixed. >> So Randy beyond what we've talked about already what's exciting you these days, you look at like the serverless trend, is that something that you find intriguing or maybe contrary view on it, what's exciting you these days? >> Serverless is really interesting. In fact I'd like to see serverless at the edge. I think it would be fascinating if Amazon webservices could sell a serverless capability that was actually running in the mobile carriers edge. So like on the mobile towers or in essential offices. But you could do distributive computation for IOT literally at the very edge of the network, that would be incredibly powerful. So I am very interested in serverless in that regard. With Kubernetes, I think that this is the future, I think I've seen most of the other initiatives start to fail at this point. Docker Incorporated just hasn't made the progress they need to, hopefully a change in leadership will fix that. But it does mean that more and more people are gravitating towards Kubernetes and that's a thing because whereas OpenStack is historically got no opinion, Kubernetes is a much more prescriptive model and I think that actually leads to faster innovation, a greater pace of change and combined with Helm charts, I think that we're going to see an ecosystem develop around Kubernetes that actually could be a counterweight to the public clouds and really be sort of cloud agnostic. Private, public, at the edge, who cares? >> Randy Bias, always appreciated your very opinionated viewpoints on everything that are happening here. Pleasure to catch up with you as always. John and I will be back will lots more coverage here from OpenStack Summit in Boston, thanks for watching the Cube.

(energetic instrumental music) >> Hey, everyone. Welcome to SiliconANGLE CUBE News here from Mobile World Congress. This is a Mobile World Congress news update. Dell in the news here partners with leading infrastructure companies, Dell Technologies, really setting up an ecosystem. Here, Dell, with leading telecom and infrastructure players accelerating the network adoption, announcing that it's launching the Dell's Open Telecom Ecosystem community. A community of multiple telecom partners and communication service providers aimed at becoming a unifying force in the telecom industry. This announcement comes just days after Dell introduced a host of new hardware, platforms designed to help the teleconference build cloud-native open radio network access, also called RAN architectures, using proprietary and sub-components for various suppliers. Dell's Open Telecom Ecosystem community has already partnered with Nokia, Qualcomm, Amdocs and Juniper Networks to create new offerings aimed at accelerating open RAN price performance for communication service providers. This includes creating a new virtual RAN offering using Open Telecom Ecosystem Labs, and as the center for testing and validation, building next-generation 5G virtualized distributed units and deploy and automated validated 5G-SA network with various partners across the ecosystem. Dell's promising that this is just the beginning of the collaboration with the telecom industry as it seeks to accelerate the adoption of 5G networking technologies and solve key industry challenges. More action's on the ground, go to thecube.net, theCUBE is broadcasting live for four days, Dave Vellante, Lisa Martin. I'm in the studios in Palo Alto bringing you the news. Lot of action happening, of course. Go to siliconangle.com to catch all the breaking news. We have a special report. We already got 10 plus stories already flowing. Probably have another 10 today. Day two tomorrow as MWC continues to power more news coverage for the edge and cloud-native technologies. (pensive ambient music)

(light music) >> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Spain everyone. Lisa Martin here with theCUBE Dave Vellante, my co-host for the next four days. We're live in Barcelona, covering MWC23. This is only day one, but I'll tell you the theme of this conference this year is velocity. And I don't know about you Dave, but this day is flying by already. This is ecosystem day. We're going to have a great discussion on the ecosystem next. >> Well we're seeing the disaggregation of the hardened telco stack, and that necessitates an ecosystem open- we're going to talk about Open RAN, we've been talking about even leading up to the show. It's a critical technology enabler and it's compulsory to have an ecosystem to support that. >> Absolutely compulsory. We've got two guests here joining us, Gautam Bhagra, Vice President partnerships at Dell, and Scott Walker, Vice President of global Telco ecosystem at Wind River. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Nice to be here. >> Thanks For having us. >> Thanks for having us. >> So you've got some news, this is day one of the conference, there's some news, Gautam, and let's start with you, unpack it. >> Yeah, well there's a lot of news, as you know, on Dell World. One of the things we are very excited to announce today is the launch of the Open Telecom Ecosystems Community. I think Dave, as you mentioned, getting into an Open RAN world is a challenge. And we know some of the challenges that our customers face. To help solve for those challenges, Dell wants to work with like-minded partners and customers to build innovative solutions, and join go-to-market. So we are launching that today. Wind River is one of our flagship partners for that, and I'm excited to be here to talk about that as well. >> Can you guys talk a little bit about the partnership, maybe a little bit about Wind River so the audience gets that context? >> Sure, absolutely, and the theme of the show, Velocity, is what this partnership is all about. We create velocity for operators if they want to adopt Open RAN, right? We simplify it. Wind River as a company has been around for 40 years. We were part of Intel at one point, and now we're independent, owned by a company called Aptiv. And with that we get another round of investment to help continue our acceleration into this market. So, the Dell partnership is about, like I said, velocity, accelerating the adoption. When we talk to operators, they have told us there are many roadblocks that they face, right? Like systems integration, operating at scale. 'Cause when you buy a traditional radio access network solution from a single supplier, it's very easy. It's works, it's been tested. When you break these components apart and disaggregate 'em, as we talked about David, it creates integration points and support issues, right? And what Dell and Wind River have done together is created a cloud infrastructure solution that could host a variety of RAN workloads, and essentially create a two layer cake. What we're, overall, what we're trying to do is create a traditional RAN experience, with the innovation agility and flexibility of Open RAN. And that's really what this partnership does. >> So these work, this workload innovation is interesting to me because you've got now developers, you know, the, you know, what's the telco developer look like, you know, is to be defined, right? I mean it's like this white sheet of paper that can create all this innovation. And to do that, you've got to have, as I said earlier, an ecosystem. But you've got now, I'm interested in your Open RAN agenda and how you see that sort of maturity model taking place. 'Cause today, you got disruptors that are going to lean right in say "Hey, yeah, that's great." The traditional carriers, they have to have a, you know, they have to migrate, they have to have a hybrid world. We know that takes time. So what's that look like in the marketplace today? >> Yeah, so I mean, I can start, right? So from a Dell's perspective, what we see in the market is yes, there is a drive towards, everyone understands the benefits of being open, right? There's the agility piece, the innovation piece. That's a no-brainer. The question is how do we get there? And I think that's where partnerships become critical to get there, right? So we've been working with partners like Wind River to build solutions that make it easier for customers to start adopting some of the foundational elements of an open network. The, one of the purposes in the agenda of building this community is to bring like-minded developers, like you said like we want those guys to come and work with the customers to create new solutions, and come up with something creative, which no one's even thought about, that accelerates your option even quicker, right? So that's exactly what we want to do as well. And that's one of the reasons why we launched the community. >> Yeah, and what we find with a lot of carriers, they are used to buying, like I said, traditional RAN solutions which are provided from a single provider like Erickson or Nokia and others, right? And we break this apart, and you cloudify that network infrastructure, there's usually a skills gap we see at the operator level, right? And so from a developer standpoint, they struggle with having the expertise in order to execute on that. Wind River helps them, working with companies like Dell, simplify that bottom portion of the stack, the infrastructure stack. So, and we lifecycle manage it, we test- we're continually testing it, and integrating it, so that the operator doesn't have to do that. In addition to that, wind River also has a history and legacy of working with different RAN vendors, both disruptors like Mavenir and Parallel Wireless, as well as traditional RAN providers like Samsung, Erickson, and others soon to be announced. So what we're doing on the northbound side is making it easy by integrating that, and on the southbound side with Dell, so that again, instead of four or five solutions that you need to put together, it's simply two. >> And you think about today how we- how you consume telco services are like there's these fixed blocks of services that you can buy, that has to change. It's more like the, the app stores. It's got to be an open marketplace, and that's where the innovation's going to come in, you know, from the developers, you know, top down maybe. I don't know, how do you see that maturity model evolving? People want to know how long it's going to take. So many questions, when will Open RAN be as reliable. Does it even have to be? You know, so many interesting dynamics going on. >> Yeah, and I think that's something we at Dell are also trying to find out, right? So we have been doing a lot of good work here to help our customers move in that direction. The work with Dish is an example of that. But I think we do understand the challenges as well in terms of getting, adopting the technologies, and adopting the innovation that's being driven by Open. So one of the agendas that we have as a company this year is to work with the community to drive this a lot further, right? We want to have customers adopt the technology more broadly with the tier one, tier two telcos globally. And our sales organizations are going to be working together with Wind Rivers to figure out who's the right set of customers to have these conversations with, so we can drop, drive, start driving this agenda a lot quicker than what we've seen historically. >> And where are you having those customer conversations? Is that at the operator level, is it higher, is it both? >> Well, all operators are deploying 5G in preparation for 6G, right? And we're all looking for those killer use cases which will drive top line revenue and not just make it a TCO discussion. And that starts at a very basic level today by doing things like integrating with Juniper, for their cloud router. So instead of at the far edge cell site, having a separate device that's doing the routing function, right? We take that and we cloudify that application, run it on the same server that's hosting the RAN applications, so you eliminate a device and reduce TCO. Now with Aptiv, which is primarily known as an automotive company, we're having lots of conversations, including with Dell and Intel and others about vehicle to vehicle communication, vehicle to anything communication. And although that's a little bit futuristic, there are shorter term use cases that, like, vehicle to vehicle accident avoidance, which are going to be much nearer term than autonomous driving, for example, which will help drive traffic and new revenue streams for operators. >> So, oh, that's, wow. So many other things (Scott laughs) that's just opened up there too. But I want to come back to, sort of, the Open RAN adoption. And I think you're right, there's a lot of questions that that still have to be determined. But my question is this, based on your knowledge so far does it have to be as hardened and reliable, obviously has to be low latency as existing networks, or can flexibility, like the cloud when it first came out, wasn't better than enterprise IT, it was just more flexible and faster, and you could rent it. And, is there a similar dynamic here where it doesn't have to replicate the hardened stack, it can bring in new benefits that drive adoption, what are your thoughts on that? >> Well there's a couple of things on that, because Wind River, as you know, where our legacy and history is in embedded devices like F-15 fighter jets, right? Or the Mars Rover or the James Web telescope, all run Wind River software. So, we know about can't fail ultra reliable systems, and operators are not letting us off the hook whatsoever. It has to be as hardened and locked down, as secure as a traditional RAN environment. Otherwise they will (indistinct). >> That's table stakes. >> That's table stakes that gets us there. And when River, with our legacy and history, and having operator experience running live commercial networks with a disaggregated stack in the tens of thousands of nodes, understand what this is like because they're running live commercial traffic with live customers. So we can't fail, right? And with that, they want their cake and eat it too, right? Which is, I want ultra reliable, I want what I have today, but I want the agility and flexibility to onboard third party apps. Like for example, this JCNR, this Juniper Cloud-Native Router. You cannot do something as simple as that on a traditional RAN Appliance. In an open ecosystem you can take that workload and onboard it because it is an open ecosystem, and that's really one of the true benefits. >> So they want the mainframe, but they want (Scott laughs) the flexibility of the developer cloud, right? >> That's right. >> They want their, have their cake eat it too and not gain weight. (group laughs) >> Yeah I mean David, I come from the public cloud world. >> We all don't want to do that. >> I used to work with a public cloud company, and nine years ago, public cloud was in the same stage, where you would go to a bank, and they would be like, we don't trust the cloud. It's not secure, it's not safe. It was the digital natives that adopted it, and that that drove the industry forward, right? And that's where the enterprises that realized that they're losing business because of all these innovative new companies that came out. That's what I saw over the last nine years in the cloud space. I think in the telco space also, something similar might happen, right? So a lot of this, I mean a lot of the new age telcos are understanding the value, are looking to innovate are adopting the open technologies, but there's still some inertia and hesitancy, for the reasons as Scott mentioned, to go there so quickly. So we just have to work through and balance between both sides. >> Yeah, well with that said, if there's still some inertia, but there's a theme of velocity, how do you help organizations balance that so they trust evolving? >> Yeah, and I think this is where our solution, like infrastructure block, is a foundational pillar to make that happen, right? So if we can take away the concerns that the organizations have in terms of security, reliability from the fundamental elements that build their infrastructure, by working with partners like Wind River, but Dell takes the ownership end-to-end to make sure that service works and we have those telco grade SLAs, then the telcos can start focusing on what's next. The applications and the customer services on the top. >> Customer service customer experience. >> You know, that's an interesting point Gautam brings up, too, because support is an issue too. We all talk about when you break these things apart, it creates integration points that you need to manage, right? But there's also, so the support aspect of it. So imagine if you will, you had one vendor, you have an outage, you call that one vendor, one necktie to choke, right, for accountability for the network. Now you have four or five vendors that you have to work. You get a lot of finger pointing. So at least at the infrastructure layer, right? Dell takes first call support for both the hardware infrastructure and the Wind River cloud infrastructure for both. And we are training and spinning them up to support, but we're always behind them of course as well. >> Can you give us a favorite customer example of- that really articulates the value of the partnership and the technologies that it's delivering to customers? >> Well, Infra Block- >> (indistinct) >> Is quite new, and we do have our first customer which is LG U plus, which was announced yesterday. Out of Korea, small customer, but a very important one. Okay, and I think they saw the value of the integrated system. They don't have the (indistinct) expertise and they're leveraging Dell and Wind River in order to make that happen. But I always also say historically before this new offering was Vodafone, right? Vodafone is a leader in Europe in terms of Open RAN, been very- Yago and Paco have been very vocal about what they're doing in Open RAN, and Dell and Wind River have been there with them every step of the way. And that's what I would say, kind of, led up to where we are today. We learned from engagements like Vodafone and I think KDDI as well. And it got us where we are today and understanding what the operators need and what the impediments are. And this directly addresses that. >> Those are two very different examples. You were talking about TCO before. I mean, so the earlier example is, that's an example to me of a disruptor. They'll take some chances, you know, maybe not as focused on TCO, of course they're concerned about it. Vodafone I would think very concerned about TCO. But I'm inferring from your comments that you're trying to get the industry, you're trying to check the TCO box, get there. And then move on to higher levels of value monetization. The TCO is going to come down to how many humans it takes to run the network, is it not, is that- >> Well a lot of, okay- >> Or is it devices- >> So the big one now, particularly with Vodafone, is energy cost, right? >> Of course, greening the network. >> Two-thirds of the energy consumption in RAN is the the Radio Access Network. Okay, the OPEX, right? So any reductions, even if they're 5% or 10%, can save tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. So we do things creatively with Dell to understand if there's a lot of traffic at the cell site and if it's not, we will change the C state or P state of the server, which basically spins it down, so it's not consuming power. But that's just at the infrastructure layer. Where this gets really powerful is working with the RAN vendors like Samsung and Ericson and others, and taking data from the traffic information there, applying algorithms to that in AI to shut it down and spin it back up as needed. 'Cause the idea is you don't want that thing powered up if there's no traffic on it. >> Well there's a sustainability, ESG, benefit to that, right? >> Yes. >> And, and it's very compute intensive. >> A hundred percent. >> Which is great for Dell. But at the same time, if you're not able to manage that power consumption, the whole thing fails. I mean it's, because there's going to be so much data, and such a intense requirement. So this is a huge issue. Okay, so Scott, you're saying that in the TCO equation, a big chunk is energy consumption? >> On the OPEX piece. Now there's also the CapEx, right? And Open RAN solutions are now, what we've heard from our customers today, are they're roughly at parity. 'Cause you can do things like repurpose servers after the useful life for a lower demand application which helps the TCO, right? Then you have situations like Juniper, where you can take, now software that runs on the same device, eliminating at a whole other device at the cell site. So we're not just taking a server and software point of view, we're taking a whole cell site point of view as it relates to both CapEx and OPEX. >> And then once that infrastructure it really gets adopted, that's when the innovation occurs. The ecosystem comes in. Developers now start to think of new applications that we haven't thought of yet. >> Gautam: Exactly. >> And that's where, that's going to force the traditional carriers to respond. They're responding, but they're doing so very carefully right now, it's understandable why. >> Yeah, and I think you're already seeing some news in the, I mean Nokia's announcement yesterday with the rebranding, et cetera. That's all positive momentum in my opinion, right? >> What'd you think of the logo? >> I love the logo. >> I liked it too. (group laughs) >> It was beautiful. >> I thought it was good. You had the connectivity down below, You need pipes, right? >> Exactly. >> But you had this sort of cool letters, and then the the pink horizon or pinkish, it was like (Scott laughs) endless opportunity. It was good, I thought it was well thought out. >> Exactly. >> Well, you pick up on an interesting point there, and what we're seeing, like advanced carriers like Dish, who has one of the true Open RAN networks, publishing APIs for programmers to build in their 5G network as part of the application. But we're also seeing the network equipment providers also enable carriers do that, 'cause carriers historically have not been advanced in that way. So there is a real recognition that in order for these networks to monetize new use cases, they need to be programmable, and they need to publish standard APIs, so you can access the 5G network capabilities through software. >> Yeah, and the problem from the carriers, there's not enough APIs that the carriers have produced yet. So that's where the ecosystem comes in, is going to >> A hundred percent >> I think there's eight APIs that are published out of the traditional carriers, which is, I mean there's got to be 8,000 for a marketplace. So that's where the open ecosystem really has the advantage. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> So it all makes sense on paper, now you just, you got a lot of work to do. >> We got to deliver. Yeah, we launched it today. We got to get some like-minded partners and customers to come together. You'll start seeing results coming out of this hopefully soon, and we'll talk more about it over time. >> Dave: Great Awesome, thanks for sharing with us. >> Excellent. Guys, thank you for sharing, stopping by, sharing what's going on with Dell and Wind River, and why the opportunity's in it for customers and the technological evolution. We appreciate it, you'll have to come back, give us an update. >> Our pleasure, thanks for having us. (Group talks over each other) >> All right, thanks guys >> Appreciate it. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, Live from MWC23 in Barcelona. theCUBE is the leader in live tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone. I'm John Furrier here in theCUBE, in Palo Alto for "CUBE Conversation" with Chris Jones, Director of Product Management at Platform9. I've got a series of questions, had a great conversation earlier. Chris, I have a couple questions for you, what do you think? >> Let's do it, John. >> Okay, how does Platform9 Solution, you- can it be used on any infrastructure anywhere, cloud, edge, on-premise? >> It can, that's the beauty of our control plane, right? It was born in the cloud, and we primarily deliver that SaaS, which allows it to work in your data center, on bare metal, on VMs, or with public cloud infrastructure. We now give you the ability to take that control plane, install it in your data center, and then use it with anything, or even in air gap. And that includes capabilities with bare metal orchestration as well. >> Second question. How does Platform9 ensure maximum uptime, and proactive issue resolution? >> Oh, that's a good question. So if you come to Platform nine we're going to talk about always on assurance. What is driving that is a system of three components around self-healing, monitoring, and proactive assistance. So our software will heal broken things on nodes, right? If something stops running that should be running, it will attempt to restart that. We also have monitoring that's deployed with everything. So you build a cluster in AWS, well, we put open source monitoring agents, that are actually Prometheus, on every single node. That means it's resilient, right? So if you lose a node, you don't lose monitoring. But that data importantly comes back to our control plane, and that's the control plane that you can put in your data center as well. That data is what alerts us, and you as a user, anytime of the day that something's going wrong. Let's say etcd latency, good example, etcd is going slow. We'll find out, we might not be able to take restorative action immediately, but we're definitely going to reach out and say,, "You have a problem, let's get ahead of this and let's prevent that from becoming a bigger problem." And that's what we're delivering. When we say always on assurance, we're talking about self-healing, we're talking about remote monitoring, we're talking about being proactive with our customers, not waiting for the phone call or the support desk ticket saying, "Oh we think something's not working." Or worse, the customer has an outage. >> Awesome. Thanks for sharing. Can you explain the process for implementing Platform9 within a company's existing infrastructure. >> Are we doing air gap, or on-prem or SaaS approached? SaaS approach I think is by far the easiest, right? We can build a dedicated Platform9 control plane instance in a manner of minutes, for any customer. So when we do a proof of concept or onboarding, we just literally put in an email address, put in the name you want for your fully qualified domain name, and your instance is up. From that point onwards, the user can just log in, and using our CLI, talk to any number of, say, virtual machines, or physical servers in their environment for, you know, doing this in a data center or colo, and say, "I want these to be my Kubernetes control plane nodes. Here's the five of them. Here's the VIP for the load balancing, the API server and here are all of my compute nodes." And that CLI will work with the SaaS control plane, and go and build the cluster. That's as simple as it, CentOS, Ubuntu, just plain old operating system. Our software takes care of all the prerequisites, installing all the pieces, putting down MetalLB, CoreDNS, Metrics Server, Kubernetes dashboard, etcd backups. You built some servers. That's essentially what you've done, and the rest is being handled by Platform9. It's as simple as that. >> Great, thanks for that. What are the two traditional paths for companies considering the cloud native journey? The two paths. >> The traditional paths. I think that's your engineering team running so fast that before you even realize that you've got, you know, 10 EKS clusters. Or, hey, we can do this. You know, I've got the I can build it mentality. Let's go DIY completely open source Kubernetes on our infrastructure, and we're going to piecemeal build it all up together. They're, I think the pathways that people traditionally look at this journey, as opposed to having that third alternative saying can I just consume it on my infrastructure, be it cloud or on-premise or at the edge. >> Third is the new way, you guys do that. >> That's been our focus since the company was, you know, brought together back in the open OpenStack days. >> Awesome, what's the makeup of your customer base? Is there a certain pattern to the size or environments that you guys work with? Is there a pattern or consistency to your customer base? >> It's a spread, right? We've got large enterprises like Juniper, and we go all the way down to people with 20, 30, 50 nodes in total. We've got people in banking and finance, we've got things all the way through to telecommunications and storage infrastructure. >> What's your favorite feature of Platform9? >> My favorite feature? You know, if I ask, should I say this as a pre-sales engineer, let me show you a favorite thing. My immediate response is, I should never do this. (John laughs) To me it's just being able to define my cluster and say, go. And in five minutes I have that environment, I can see everything that's running, right? It's all unified, it's one spot, right? I'm a cluster admin. I said I wanted three control plane, 25 workers. Here's the infrastructure, it creates it, and once it's built, I can see everything that's running, right? All the applications that are there. One UI, I don't have to go click around. I'm not trying to solve things or download things. It's the fact that it's unified and just delivered in one hit. >> What is the one thing that people should know about Platform9 that they might not know about it? >> I think it's that we help developers and engineers as much as we can help our operations teams. I think, for a long time we've sort of targeted that user and said, hey, we, we really help you. It's like, but why are they doing this? Why are they building any infrastructure or any cloud platform? Well, it's to run applications and services, to help their customers, but how do they get there? There's people building and writing those things, and we're helping them, right? For the last two years, we've been really focused on making it simple, and I think that's an important thing to know. >> Chris, thanks so much, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thank you, John. >> Okay, that's theCUBE Q&A session here with Platform9. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (light music)

(lively music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Supercloud presentation here. I'm theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, your host. What a great segment here. We're going to unpack the networking aspect of the cloud, how that translates into what Supercloud architecture and platform deployment scenarios look like. And demystify multi-cloud, hybridcloud. We've got two great experts. Amir Khan, the Co-Founder and CEO of Alkira, Atif Khan, Co-Founder and CTO of Alkira. These guys been around since 2018 with the startup, but before that story, history in the tech industry. I mean, routing early days, multiple waves, multiple cycles. >> Welcome three decades. >> Welcome to Supercloud. >> Thanks. >> Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> So, let's get your take on Supercloud because it's been one of those conversations that really galvanized the industry because it kind of highlights almost this next wave, this next side of the street that everyone's going to be on that's going to be successful. The laggards on the legacy seem to be stuck on the old model. SaaS is growing up, it's ISVs, it's ecosystems, hyperscale, full hybrid. And then multi-cloud around the corners cause all this confusion, everyone's hand waving. You know, this is a solution, that solution, where are we? What do you guys see as this supercloud dynamic? >> So where we start from is always focusing on the customer problem. And in 2018 when we identified the problem, we saw that there were multiple clouds with many diverse ways of doing things from the network perspective, and customers were struggling with that. So we delved deeper into that and looked at each one of the cloud architectures completely independent. And there was no common solution and customers were struggling with that from the perspective. They wanted to be in multiple clouds, either through mergers and acquisitions or running an application which may be more cost effective to run in something or maybe optimized for certain reasons to run in a different cloud. But from the networking perspective, everything needed to come together. So that's, we are starting to define it as a supercloud now, but basically, it's a common infrastructure across all clouds. And then integration of high lift services like, you know, security or IPAM services or many other types of services like inter-partner routing and stuff like that. So, Amir, you agree then that multi-cloud is simply a default result of having whatever outcomes, either M&A, some productivity software, maybe Azure. >> Yes. >> Amazon has this and then I've got on-premise application, so it's kinds mishmash. >> So, I would qualify it with hybrid multi-cloud because everything is going to be interconnected. >> John: Got it. >> Whether it's on-premise, remote users or clouds. >> But have CTO perspective, obviously, you got developers, multiple stacks, got AWS, Azure and GCP, other. Not everyone wants to kind of like go all in, but yet they don't want to hedge too much because it's a resource issue. And I got to learn this stack, I got to learn that stack. So then now, you have this default multi-cloud, hybrid multi-cloud, then it's like, okay, what do I do? How do you spread that around? Is it dangerous? What's the the approach technically? What's some of the challenges there? >> Yeah, certainly. John, first, thanks for having us here. So, before I get to that, I'll just add a little bit to what Amir was saying, like how we started, what we were seeing and how it, you know, correlates with the supercloud. So, as you know, before this company, Alkira, we were doing, we did the SD-WAN company, which was Viptela. So there, we started seeing when people started deploying SD-WAN at like a larger scale. We started like, you know, customers coming to us and saying they needed connectivity into the cloud from the SD-WAN. They wanted to extend the SD-WAN fabric to the cloud. So we came up with an architecture, which was like later we started calling them Cloud onRamps, where we built, you know, a transit VPC and put like the virtual instances of SD-WAN appliances extended from there to the cloud. But before we knew, like it started becoming very complicated for the customers because it wasn't just connectivity, it also required, you know, other use cases. You had to instantiate or bring in security appliances in there. You had to secure all of that stuff. There were requirements for, you know, different regions. So you had to bring up the same thing in different regions. Then multiple clouds, what did you do? You had to replicate the same thing in multiple clouds. And now if there was was requirement between clouds, how were you going to do it? You had to route traffic from somewhere, and come up with all those routing controls and stuff. So, it was very complicated. >> Like spaghetti code, but on network. >> The games begin, in fact, one of our customers called it spaghetti mess. And so, that's where like we thought about where was the industry going and which direction the industry was going into? And we came up with the Alkira where what we are doing is building a common infrastructure across multiple clouds, across in, you know, on-prem locations, be it data centers or physical sites, branches sites, et cetera, with integrated security and network networking services inside. And, you know, nowadays, networking is not only about connectivity, you have to secure everything. So, security has to be built in. Redundancy, high availability, disaster recovery. So all of that needs to be built in. So that's like, you know, kind of a definition of like what we thought at that time, what is turning into supercloud now. >> Yeah. It's interesting too, you mentioned, you know, VPCs is not, configuration of loans a hassle. Nevermind the manual mistakes could be made, but as you decide to do something you got to, "Oh, we got to get these other things." A lot of the hyper scales and a lot of the alpha cloud players now, and cloud native folks, they're kind of in that mode of, "Wow, look at what we've built." Now, they're got to maintain, how do I refresh it? Like, how do I keep the talent? So they got this similar chaotic environment where it's like, okay, now they're already already through, so I think they're going to be okay. But then some people want to bypass it completely. So there's a lot of customers that we see out there that fit the makeup of, I'm cloud first, I've lifted and shifted, I move some stuff to the cloud. But I want to bypass all that learnings from all the people that are gone through the past three years. Can I just skip that and go to a multi-cloud or coherent infrastructure? What do you think about that? What's your view? >> So yeah, so if you look at these enterprises, you know, many of them just to find like the talent, which for one cloud as far as the IT staff is concerned, it's hard enough. And now, when you have multiple clouds, it's hard to find people the talent which is, you know, which has expertise across different clouds. So that's where we come into the picture. So our vision was always to simplify all of this stuff. And simplification, it cannot be just simplification because you cannot just automate the workflows of the cloud providers underneath. So you have to, you know, provide your full data plane on top of it, fed full control plane, management plane, policy and management on top of it. And coming back to like your question, so these nowadays, those people who are working on networking, you know, before it used to be like CLI. You used to learn about Cisco CLI or Juniper CLI, and you used to work on it. Nowadays, it's very different. So automation, programmability, all of that stuff is the key. So now, you know, Ops guys, the DevOps guys, so these are the people who are in high demand. >> So what do you think about the folks out there that are saying, okay, you got a lot of fragmentation. I got the stacks, I got a lot of stove pipes, if you will, out there on the stack. I got to learn this from Azure. Can you guys have with your product abstract the way that's so developers don't need to know the ins and outs of stack's, almost like a gateway, if you will, the old days. But like I'm a developer or team develop, why should I have to learn the management layer of Azure? >> That's exactly what we started, you know, out with to solve. So it's, what we have built is a platform and the platform sits inside the cloud. And customers are able to build their own network or a virtual network on top using that platform. So the platform has its own data plane, own control plane and management plane with a policy layer on top of it. So now, it's the platform which is sitting in different clouds, but from a customer's point of view, it's one way of doing networking. One way of instantiating or bringing in services or security services in the middle. Whether those are our security services or whether those are like services from our partners, like Palo Alto or Checkpoint or Cisco. >> So you guys brought the SD-WAN mojo and refactored it for the cloud it sounds like. >> No. >> No? (chuckles) >> We cannot said. >> All right, explain. >> It's way more than that. >> I mean, SD-WAN was wan. I mean, you're talking about wide area networks, talking about connected, so explain the difference. >> SD-WAN was primarily done for one major reason. MPLS was expensive, very strong SLAs, but very low speed. Internet, on the other hand, you sat at home and you could access your applications much faster. No SLA, very low cost, right? So we wanted to marry the two together so you could have a purely private infrastructure and a public infrastructure and secure both of them by creating a common secure fabric across all those environments. And then seamlessly tying it into your internal branch and data center and cloud network. So, it merely brought you to the edge of the cloud. It didn't do anything inside the cloud. Now, the major problem resides inside the clouds where you have to optimize the clouds themselves. Take a step back. How were the clouds built? Basically, the cloud providers went to the Ciscos and Junipers and the rest of the world, built the network in the data centers or across wide area infrastructure, and brought it all together and tried to create a virtualized layer on top of that. But there were many limitations of this underlying infrastructure that they had built. So number of routes per region, how inter region connectivity worked, or how many routes you could carry to the VPCs of V nets? That all those were becoming no common policy across, you know, these environments, no segmentation across these environments, right? So the networking constructs that the enterprise customers were used to as enterprise class carry class capabilities, they did not exist in the cloud. So what did the customer do? They ended up stitching it together all manually. And that's why Atif was alluding to earlier that it became a spaghetti mess for the customers. And then what happens is, as a result, day two operations, you know, troubleshooting, everything becomes a nightmare. So what do you do? You have to build an infrastructure inside the cloud. Cloud has enough raw capabilities to build the solutions inside there. Netflix's of the world. And many different companies have been born in the cloud and evolved from there. So why could we not take the raw capabilities of the clouds and build a network cloud or a supercloud on top of these clouds to optimize the whole infrastructure and seamlessly connecting it into the on-premise and remote user locations, right? So that's your, you know, hybrid multi-cloud solution. >> Well, great call out on the SD-WAN in common versus cloud. 'Cause I think this is important because you're building a network layer in the cloud that spans out so the customers don't have to get into the, there's a gap in the system that I'm used to, my operating environment, of having lockdown security and network. >> So yeah. So what you do is you use the raw capabilities like bandwidth or virtual machines, or you know, containers, or, you know, different types of serverless capabilities. And you bring it all together in a way to solve the networking problems, thereby creating a supercloud, which is an abstraction layer which hides all the complexity of the underlying clouds from the customer, right? And it provides a common infrastructure across all environments to that customer, right? That's the beauty of it. And it does it in a way that it looks like, if they have the networking knowledge, they can apply it to this new environment and carry it forward. One way of doing security across all clouds and hybrid environments. One way of doing routing. One way of doing large-scale network address translation. One way of doing IPAM services. So people are tired of doing individual things and individual clouds and on-premise locations, right? So now they're getting something common. >> You guys brought that, you brought all that to bear and flexible for the customer to essentially self-serve their network cloud. >> Yes, yeah. Is that the wave? >> And nowadays, from business perspective, agility is the key, right? You have to move at the pace of the business. If you don't, you are losing. >> So, would it be safe to say that you guys have a network supercloud? >> Absolutely, yeah. >> We, pretty much, yeah. Absolutely. >> What does that mean to our customer? What's in it for them? What's the benefit to the customer? I got a network supercloud, it connects, provides SLA, all the capabilities I need. What do they get? What's the end point for them? What's the end? >> Atif, maybe you can talk some examples. >> The IT infrastructure is all like distributed now, right? So you have applications running in data centers. You have applications running in one cloud. Other cloud, public clouds, enterprises are depending on so many SaaS applications. So now, these are, you can call these endpoints. So a supercloud or a network cloud, from our perspective, it's a cloud in the middle or a network in the middle, which provides connectivity from any endpoint to any endpoint. So, you are able to connect to the supercloud or network cloud in one way no matter where you are. So now, whichever cloud you are in, whichever cloud you need to connect to. And also, it's not just connecting to the cloud. So you need to do a lot of stuff, a lot of networking inside the cloud also. So now, as Amir was saying, every cloud has its own from a networking, you know, the concept perspective or the construct, they are different. There are limitations in there also. So this supercloud, which is sitting on top, basically, your platform is sitting into the cloud, but the supercloud is built on top of using your platform. So that abstracts all those complexities, all those limitations. So now your limitations are whatever the limitations of that platform are. So now your platform, that platform is in our control. So we can keep building it, we can keep scaling it horizontally. Because one of the things is that, you know, in this cloud era, one of the things is autoscaling these services. So why can't the network now autoscale also, just like your other services. >> Network autoscaling is a genius idea, and I think that's a killer. I want to ask the the follow on question because I think, first of all, I love what you guys are doing. So, I think it's a great example of this new innovation. It's not obvious until you see it, right? Geographical is huge. So, you know, single instance, global instances, multiple instances, you're seeing global. How do you guys look at that global equation? Because as companies expand their clouds into geos, and then ultimately, you know, it's obviously continent, region and locales. You're going to have geographic issues. So, this is an extension of your network cloud? >> Amir: It is the extension of the network cloud because if you look at this hyperscalers, they're sitting pretty much everywhere in the globe. So, wherever their regions are, the beauty of building a supercloud is that you can by definition, be available in those regions. It literally takes a day or two of testing for our stack to run in those regions, to make sure there are no nuances that we run into, you know, for that region. The moment we bring it up in that region, all customers can onboard into that solution. So literally, what used to take months or years to build a global infrastructure, now, you can configure it in 10 minutes basically, and bring it up in less than one hour. Since when did we see any solution- >> And by the way, >> that can come up with. >> when the edge comes out too, you're going to start to see more clouds get bolted on. >> Exactly. And you can expand to the edge of the network. That's why we call cloud the new edge, right? >> John: Yeah, it is. Now, I think you guys got a good solutions, network clouds, superclouds, good. So the question on the premise side, so I get the cloud play. It's very cool. You can expand out. It's a nice layer. I'm sure you manage the SLAs between latency and all kinds of things. Knowing when not to do things. Physics or physics. Okay. Now, you've got the on-premise. What's the on-premise equation look like? >> So on-premise, the kind of customers, we are working with large enterprises, mid-size enterprises. So they have on-prem networks, they have deployed, in many cases, they have deployed SD-WAN. In many cases, they have MPLS. They have data centers also. And a lot of these companies are, you know, moving the applications from the data center into the cloud. But we still have large enterprise- >> But for you guys, you can sit there too with non server or is it a box or what is it? >> It's a software stack, right? So, we are a software company. >> Okay, so no box. >> No box. >> Okay, got it. >> No box. >> It's even better. So, we can connect any, as I mentioned, any endpoint, whether it's data centers. So, what happens is usually these enterprises from the data centers- >> John: It's a cloud endpoint for you. >> Cloud endpoint for us. And they need highspeed connectivity into the cloud. And our network cloud is sitting inside the or supercloud is sitting inside the cloud. So we need highspeed connectivity from the data centers. This is like multi-gig type of connectivity. So we enable that connectivity as a service. And as Amir was saying, you are able to bring it up in minutes, pretty much. >> John: Well, you guys have a great handle on supercloud. I really appreciate you guys coming on. I have to ask you guys, since you have so much experience in the industry, multiple inflection points you've guys lived through and we're all old, and we can remember those glory days. What's the big deal going on right now? Because you can connect the dots and you can imagine, okay, like a Lambda function spinning up some connectivity. I need instant access to a new route, throw some, I need to send compute to an edge point for process data. A lot of these kind of ad hoc services are going to start flying around, which used to be manually configured as you guys remember. >> Amir: And that's been the problem, right? The shadow IT, that was the biggest problem in the enterprise environment. So that's what we are trying to get the customers away from. Cloud teams came in, individuals or small groups of people spun up instances in the cloud. It was completely disconnected from the on-premise environment or the existing IT environment that the customer had. So, how do you bring it together? And that's what we are trying to solve for, right? At a large scale, in a carrier cloud center (indistinct). >> What do you call that? Shift right or shift left? Shift left is in the cloud native world security. >> Amir: Yes. >> Networking and security, the two hottest areas. What are you shifting? Up or down? I mean, the network's moving up the stack. I mean, you're seeing the run times at Kubernetes later' >> Amir: Right, right. It's true we're end-to-end virtualization. So you have plumbing, which is the physical infrastructure. Then on top of that, now for the first time, you have true end-to-end virtualization, which the cloud-like constructs are providing to us. We tried to virtualize the routers, we try to virtualize instances at the server level. Now, we are bringing it all together in a truly end-to-end virtualized manner to connect any endpoint anywhere across the globe. Whether it's on-premise, home, multiple clouds, or SaaS type environments. >> Yeah. If you talk about the technical benefits beyond virtualizations, you kind of see in virtualization be abstracted away. So you got end-to-end virtualization, but you don't need to know virtualization to take advantage of it. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> What are some of the tech involved where, what's the trend around on top of virtual? What's the easy button for that? >> So there are many, many use cases from the customers and they're, you know, some of those use cases, they used to deliver out of their data centers before. So now, because you, know, it takes a long time to spend something up in the data center and stuff. So the trend is and what enterprises are looking for is agility. And to achieve that agility, they are moving those services or those use cases into the cloud. So another technical benefit of like something like a supercloud and what we are doing is we allow customers to, you know, move their services from existing data centers into the cloud as well. And I'll give you some examples. You know, these enterprises have, you know, tons of partners. They provide connectivity to their partners, to select resources. It used to happen inside the data center. You would bring in connectivity into the data center and apply like tons of ACLs and whatnot to make sure that you are able to only connect. And now those use cases are, they need to be enabled inside the cloud. And the customer's customers are also, it's not just coming from the on-prem, they're coming from the cloud as well. So, if they're coming from the cloud as well as from on-prem, so you need like an infrastructure like supercloud, which is sitting inside the cloud and is able to handle all these use cases. So all of these use cases have to be, so that requires like moving those services from the data center into the cloud or into the supercloud. So, they're, oh, as we started building this service over the last four years, we have come across so many use cases. And to deliver those use cases, you have to have a platform. So you have to have your own platform because otherwise you are depending on somebody else's, you know, capabilities. And every time their capabilities change, you have to change. >> John: I'm glad you brought up the platform 'cause I want to get your both reaction to this. So Bob Muglia just said on theCUBE here at Supercloud, that supercloud is a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers. So the question is, is supercloud a platform or an architecture in your view? >> That's an interesting view on things, you know? I mean, if you think of it, you have to design or architect a solution before we turn it into a platform. >> John: It's a trick question actually. >> So it's a, you know, so we look at it as that you have to have an architectural approach end to end, right? And then you build a solution based on that approach. So, I don't think that they are mutually exclusive. I think they go hand in hand. It's an architecture that you turn into a solution and provide that agility and high availability and disaster recovery capability that it built into that. >> It's interesting that these definitions might be actually redefined with this new configuration. >> Amir: Yes. >> Because architecture and platform used to mean something, like, aight here's a platform, you buy this platform. >> And then you architecture solution. >> Architect it via vendor. >> Right, right, right. >> Okay. And they have to deal with that architecture in the place of multiple superclouds. If you have too many stove pipes, then what's the purpose of supercloud? >> Right, right, right. And because, you know, historically, you built a router and you sold it to the customer. And the poor customer was supposed to install it all, you know, and interconnect all those things. And if you have 40, 50,000 router network, which we saw in our lifetime, 'cause there used to be many more branches when we were growing up in the networking industry, right? You had to create hierarchy and all kinds of things to figure out how to solve that problem. We are no longer living in that world anymore. You cannot deploy individual virtual instances. And that's what approach a lot of people are taking, which is a pure overly network. You cannot take that approach anymore. You have to evolve the architecture and then build the solution based on that architecture so that it becomes a platform which is readily available, highly scalable, and available. And at the same time, it's very, very easy to deploy. It's a SaaS type solution, right? >> So you're saying, do the architecture to get the solution for the platform that the customer has. >> Amir: Yes. >> They're not buying a platform, they end up with a platform- >> With the platform. >> as a result of Supercloud path. All right. So that's what's, so you mentioned, that's a great point. I want to double click on what you just said. 'Cause I like that what you said. What's the deployment strategy in your mind for supercloud? I'm an architect. I'm at an enterprise in the Midwest. I'm an insurance company, got some cloud action going on. I'm mostly on-premise. I've got the mandate to transform the company. We have apps. We'll be fully transformed in five years. What's my strategy? What do I do? >> Amir: The resources. >> What's the deployment strategy? Single global instance, code in every region, on every cloud? >> It needs to be a solution which is available as a SaaS service, right? So from the customer's perspective, they are onboarding into the supercloud. And then the supercloud is allowing them to do whatever they used to do, you know, historically and in the new world, right? That needs to come together. And that's what we have built is that, we have brought everything together in a way that what used to take months or years, and now taking an hour or two hours, and then people test it for a week or so and deploy it in production. >> I want to bring up something we were talking about before we were on camera about the TCP/IP, the OSI model. That was a concept that destroyed the proprietary narcissist. Work operating systems of the mini computers, which brought in an era of tech prosperity for generations. TCP/IP was kind of the magical moment that allowed for that kind of super networking connection. Inter networking is what's called as a category. It feels like something's going on here with supercloud. The way you describe it, it feels like there's this unification idea. Like the reality is we've got multiple stuff sitting around by default, you either clean it up or get rid of it, right? Or it's almost a, it's either a nuance, a new nuisance or chaos. >> Yeah. And we live in the new world now. We don't have the luxury of time. So we need to move as fast as possible to solve the business problems. And that's what we are running into. If we don't have automated solutions which scale, which solve our problems, then it's going to be a problem. And that's why SaaS is so important in today's world. Why should we have to deploy the network piecemeal? Why can't we have a solution? We solve our problem as we move forward and we accomplish what we need to accomplish and move forward. >> And we don't really need standards here, dude. It's not that we need a standards body if you have unification. >> So because things move so fast, there's no time to create a standards body. And that's why you see companies like ours popping up, which are trying to create a common infrastructure across all clouds. Otherwise if we vent the standardization path may take long. Eventually, we should be going in that direction. But we don't have the luxury of time. That's what I was trying to get to. >> Well, what's interesting is, is that to your point about standards and ratification, what ratifies a defacto anything? In the old days there was some technical bodies involved, but here, I think developers drive everything. So if you look at the developers and how they're voting with their code. They're instantly, organically defining everything as a collective intelligence. >> And just like you're putting out the paper and making it available, everybody's contributing to that. That's why you need to have APIs and terra form type constructs, which are available so that the customers can continue to improve upon that. And that's the Net DevOps, right? So that you need to have. >> What was once sacrilege, just sayin', in business school, back in the days when I got my business degree after my CS degree was, you know, no one wants to have a better mousetrap, a bad business model to have a better mouse trap. In this case, the better mouse trap, the better solution actually could be that thing. >> It is that thing. >> I mean, that can trigger, tips over the industry. >> And that that's where we are seeing our customers. You know, I mean, we have some publicly referenceable customers like Coke or Warner Music Group or, you know, multiple others and chart industries. The way we are solving the problem. They have some of the largest environments in the industry from the cloud perspective. And their whole network infrastructure is running on the Alkira infrastructure. And they're able to adopt new clouds within days rather than waiting for months to architect and then deploy and then figure out how to manage it and operate it. It's available as a service. >> John: And we've heard from your customer, Warner, they were just on the program. >> Amir: Yes. Okay, okay. >> So they're building a supercloud. So superclouds aren't just for tech companies. >> Amir: No. >> You guys build a supercloud for networking. >> Amir: It is. >> But people are building their own superclouds on top of all this new stuff. Talk about that dynamic. >> Healthcare providers, financials, high-tech companies, even startups. One of our startup customers, Tekion, right? They have these dealerships that they provide sales and support services to across the globe. And for them to be able to onboard those dealerships, it is 80% less time to production. That is real money, right? So, maybe Atif can give you a lot more examples of customers who are deploying. >> Talk about some of the customer activity. What are they like? Are they laggards, they innovators? Are they trying to hit the easy button? Are they coming in late or are you got some high customers? >> Actually most of our customers, all of our customers or customers in general. I don't think they have a choice but to move in this direction because, you know, the cloud has, like everything is quick now. So the cloud teams are moving faster in these enterprises. So now that they cannot afford the network nor to keep up pace with the cloud teams. So, they don't have a choice but to go with something similar where you can, you know, build your network on demand and bring up your network as quickly as possible to meet all those use cases. So, I'll give you an example. >> John: So the demand's high for what you guys do. >> Demand is very high because the cloud teams have- >> John: Yeah. They're going fast. >> They're going fast and there's no stopping. And then network teams, they have to keep up with them. And you cannot keep deploying, you know, networks the way you used to deploy back in the day. And as far as the use cases are concerned, there are so many use cases which our customers are using our platform for. One of the use cases, I'll give you an example of these financial customers. Some of the financial customers, they have their customers who they provide data, like stock exchanges, that provide like market data information to their customers out of data centers part. But now, their customers are moving into the cloud as well. So they need to come in from the cloud. So when they're coming in from the cloud, you cannot be giving them data from your data center because that takes time, and your hair pinning everything back. >> Moving data is like moving, moving money, someone said. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. And the other thing is like you have to optimize your traffic flows in the cloud as well because every time you leave the cloud, you get charged a lot. So, you don't want to leave the cloud unless you have to leave the cloud, your traffic. So, you have to come up or use a service which allows you to optimize all those traffic flows as well, you know? >> My final question to you guys, first of all, thanks for coming on Supercloud Program. Really appreciate it. Congratulations on your success. And you guys have a great positioning and I'm a big fan. And I have to ask, you guys are agile, nimble startup, smart on the cutting edge. Supercloud concept seems to resonate with people who are kind of on the front range of this major wave. While all the incumbents like Cisco, Microsoft, even AWS, they're like, I think they're looking at it, like what is that? I think it's coming up really fast, this trend. Because I know people talk about multi-cloud, I get that. But like, this whole supercloud is not just SaaS, it's more going on there. What do you think is going on between the folks who get it, supercloud, get the concept, and some are who are scratching their heads, whether it's the Ciscos or someone, like I don't get it. Why is supercloud important for the folks that aren't really seeing it? >> So first of all, I mean, the customers, what we saw about six months, 12 months ago, were a little slower to adopt the supercloud kind of concept. And there were leading edge customers who were coming and adopting it. Now, all of a sudden, over the last six to nine months, we've seen a flurry of customers coming in and they are from all disciplines or all very diverse set of customers. And they're starting to see the value of that because of the practical implications of what they're doing. You know, these shadow IT type environments are no longer working and there's a lot of pressure from the management to move faster. And then that's where they're coming in. And perhaps, Atif, if you can give a few examples of. >> Yeah. And I'll also just add to your point earlier about the network needing to be there 'cause the cloud teams are like, let's go faster. And the network's always been slow because, but now, it's been almost turbocharged. >> Atif: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And as I said, like there was no choice here. You had to move in this industry. And the other thing I would add a little bit is now if you look at all these enterprises, most of their traffic is from, even from which is coming from the on-prem, it's going to the cloud SaaS applications or public clouds. And it's more than 50% of traffic, which is leaving your, you know, what you used to call, your network or the private network. So now it's like, you know, before it used to just connect sites to data centers and sites together. Now, it's a cloud as well as the SaaS application. So it's either internet bound or the public cloud bound. So now you have to build a network quickly, which caters to all these use cases. And that's where like something- >> And you guys, your solution to me is you eliminate all that work for the customer. Now, they can treat the cloud like a bag of Legos. And do their thing. Well, I oversimplify. Well, you know I'm talking about. >> Atif: Right, exactly. >> And to answer your question earlier about what about the big companies coming in and, you know, now they slow to adopt? And, you know, what normally happens is when Cisco came up, right? There used to be 16 different protocols suites. And then we finally settled on TCP/IP and DECnet or AppleTalk or X&S or, you know, you name it, right? Those companies did not adapt to the networking the way it was supposed to be done. And guess what happened, right? So if the companies in the networking space do not adopt this new concept or new way of doing things, I think some of them will become extinct over time. >> Well, I think the force and function too is the cloud teams as well. So you got two evolutions. You got architectural relevance. That's real as impact. >> It's very important. >> Cost, speed. >> And I look at it as a very similar disruption to what Cisco's the world, very early days did to, you know, bring the networking out, right? And it became the internet. But now we are going through the cloud. It's the cloud era, right? How does the cloud evolve over the next 10, 15, 20 years? Everything's is going to be offered as a service, right? So slowly data centers go away, the network becomes a plumbing thing. Very, you know, simple to deploy. And everything on top of that is virtualized in the cloud-like manners. >> And that makes the networks hardened and more secure. >> More secure. >> It's a great way to be secure. You remember the glory days, we'll go back 15 years. The Cisco conversation was, we got to move up to stack. All the manager would fight each other. Now, what does that actually mean? Stay where we are. Stay in your lane. This is kind of like the network's version of moving up the stack because not so much up the stack, but the cloud is everywhere. It's almost horizontally scaled. >> It's extending into the on-premise. It is already moving towards the edge, right? So, you will see a lot- >> So, programmability is a big program. So you guys are hitting programmability, compatibility, getting people into an environment they're comfortable operating. So the Ops people love it. >> Exactly. >> Spans the clouds to a level of SLA management. It might not be perfectly spanning applications, but you can actually know latencies between clouds, measure that. And then so you're basically managing your network now as the overall infrastructure. >> Right. And it needs to be a very intelligent infrastructure going forward, right? Because customers do not want to wait to be able to troubleshoot. They don't want to be able to wait to deploy something, right? So, it needs to be a level of automation. >> Okay. So the question for you guys both on we'll end on is what is the enablement that, because you guys are a disruptive enabler, right? You create this fabric. You're going to enable companies to do stuff. What are some of the things that you see and your customers might be seeing as things that they're going to do as a result of having this enablement? So what are some of those things? >> Amir: Atif, perhaps you can talk through the some of the customer experience on that. >> It's agility. And we are allowing these customers to move very, very quickly and build these networks which meet all these requirements inside the cloud. Because as Amir was saying, in the cloud era, networking is changing. And if you look at, you know, going back to your comment about the existing networking vendors. Some of them still think that, you know, just connecting to the cloud using some concepts like Cloud OnRamp is cloud networking, but it's changing now. >> John: 'Cause there's apps that are depending upon. >> Exactly. And it's all distributed. Like IT infrastructure, as I said earlier, is all distributed. And at the end of the day, you have to make sure that wherever your user is, wherever your app is, you are able to connect them securely. >> Historically, it used to be about building a router bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, and then interconnecting those routers. Now, it's all about horizontal scale. You don't need to build big, you need to scale it, right? And that's what cloud brings to the customer. >> It's a cultural change for Cisco and Juniper because they have to understand that they're still could be in the game and still win. >> Exactly. >> The question I have for you, what are your customers telling you that, what's some of the anecdotal, like, 'cause you guys have a good solution, is it, "Oh my god, you guys saved my butt." Or what are some of the commentary that you hear from the customers in terms of praise and and glory from your solution? >> Oh, some even say, when we do our demo and stuff, they say it's too hard to believe. >> Believe. >> Like, too hard. It's hard, you know, it's >> I dont believe you. They're skeptics. >> I don't believe you that because now you're able to bring up a global network within minutes. With networking services, like let's say you have APAC, you know, on-prem users, cloud also there, cloud here, users here, you can bring up a global network with full routed connectivity between all these endpoints with security services. You can bring up like a firewall from a third party or our services in the middle. This is a matter of minutes now. And this is all high speed connectivity with SLAs. Imagine like before connecting, you know, Singapore to U.S. East or Hong Kong to Frankfurt, you know, if you were putting your infrastructure in columns like E-connects, you would have to go, you know, figure out like, how am I going to- >> Seal line In, connect to it? Yeah. A lot of hassles, >> If you had to put like firewalls in the middle, segmentation, you had to, you know, isolate different entities. >> That's called heavy lifting. >> So what you're seeing is, you know, it's like customer comes in, there's a disbelief, can you really do that? And then they try it out, they go, "Wow, this works." Right? It's deployed in a small environment. And then all of a sudden they start taking off, right? And literally we have seen customers go from few thousand dollars a month or year type deployments to multi-million dollars a year type deployments in very, very short amount of time, in a few months. >> And you guys are pay as you go? >> Pay as you go. >> Pay as go usage cloud-based compatibility. >> Exactly. And it's amazing once they get to deploy the solution. >> What's the variable on the cost? >> On the cost? >> Is it traffic or is it. >> It's multiple different things. It's packaged into the overall solution. And as a matter of fact, we end up saving a lot of money to the customers. And not only in one way, in multiple different ways. And we do a complete TOI analysis for the customers. So it's bandwidth, it's number of connections, it's the amount of compute power that we are using. >> John: Similar things that they're used to. >> Just like the cloud constructs. Yeah. >> All right. Networking supercloud. Great. Congratulations. >> Thank you so much. >> Thanks for coming on Supercloud. >> Atif: Thank you. >> And looking forward to seeing more of the demand. Translate, instant networking. I'm sure it's going to be huge with the edge exploding. >> Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Congratulations. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you so much. >> Okay. So this is Supercloud 2 event here in Palo Alto. I'm John Furrier. The network Supercloud is here. Checkout Alkira. I'm John Furry, the host. Thanks for watching. (lively music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and ETR this is breaking analysis with Dave vellante over the past decade cloudflare has built a Global Network that has the potential to become the fourth us-based hyperscale class cloud in our view the company is building a durable Revenue model with hooks into many important markets these include the more mature DDOS protection space to other growth sectors such as zero trust a serverless platform for application development and an increasing number of services such as database and object storage and other network services in essence cloudflare could be thought of as a giant distributed supercomputer that can connect multiple clouds and act as a highly efficient scheduling engine at scale its disruptive DNA is increasingly attracting novel startups and established Global firms alike looking for Reliable secure high performance low latency and more cost-effective alternatives to AWS and Legacy infrastructure Solutions hello and welcome to this week's wikibon Cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis we initiate our deeper coverage of cloudflare we'll briefly explain our take on the company and its unique business model we'll then share some peer comparisons with both the financial snapshot and some fresh ETR survey data finally we'll share some examples of how we think cloudflare could be a disruptive force with a super cloud-like offering that in many respects is what multi-cloud should have been cloudflare has been on our peripheral radar Ben Thompson and many others have written about their disruptive business model and recently a breaking analysis follower who will remain anonymous emailed with some excellent insights on cloudflare that prompted us to initiate more detailed coverage let's first take a look at how cloudflare seize the world in terms of its view of a modern stack this is a graphic from cloudflare that shows a simple three-layer Stack comprising Storage and compute the lower level and application layer and the network and their key message is basically that the big four hyperscalers have replaced the on-prem leaders apps have been satisfied and that mess of network that you see and Security in the upper left can now be handled all by cloudflare and the stack can be rented via Opex versus requiring heavy capex investment so okay somewhat of a simplified view is those companies on the the left are you know not standing still and we're going to come back to that but cloudflare has done something quite amazing I mean it's been a while since we've invoked Russ hanneman of Silicon Valley Fame on breaking analysis but remember when he was in a meeting one of his first meetings if not the first with Richard Hendricks it was the whiz kid on the show Silicon Valley and hanneman said something like if you had a blank check and you could build anything in the world what would it be and Richard's answer was basically a new internet and that led to Pied Piper this peer-to-peer Network powered by decentralized devices and and iPhones and this amazing compression algorithm that enabled high-speed data movement and low latency uh up to no low latency access across the network well in a way that's what cloudflare has built its founding premise reimagined how the internet should be built with a consistent set of server infrastructure where each server had lots of cores lots of dram lots of cash fast ssds and plenty of network connectivity and bandwidth and well this picture makes it look like a bunch of dots and points of presence on a map which of course it is there's a software layer that enables cloudflare to efficiently allocate resources across this Global Network the company claims that it's Network utilization is in the 70 percent range and it has used its build out to enter the technology space from the bottoms up offering for example free tiers of services to users with multiple entry points on different services and selling then more services over time to a customer which of course drives up its average contract value and its lifetime value at the same time the company continues to innovate and add new services at a very rapid cloud-like Pace you can think of cloudflare's initial Market entry as like a lightweight Cisco as a service the company's CFO actually he uses that term he calls it that which really must tick off Cisco who of course has a massive portfolio and a dominant Market position now because it owns the network cloudflare is a marginal cost of adding new Services is very small and goes towards zero so it's able to get software like economics at scale despite all this infrastructure that's building out so it doesn't have to constantly face the increasing infrastructure tax snowflake for example doesn't own its own network infrastructure as it grows it relies on AWS or Azure gcp and and while it gives the company obvious advantages it doesn't have to build out its own network it also requires them to constantly pay the tax and negotiate with hyperscalers for better rental rates now as previously mentioned Cloud Fair cloudflare claims that its utilization is very high probably higher than the hyperscalers who can spin up servers that they can charge for underutilized customer capacity cloudflare also has excellent Network traffic data that it can use to its Advantage with its Analytics the company has been rapidly innovating Beyond its original Core Business adding as I said before serverless zero trust offerings it has announced a database it calls its database D1 that's pretty creative and it's announced an object store called R2 that is S3 minus one both from the alphabet and the numeric I.E minus the egress cost saying no egress cost that's their big claim to fame and they've made a lot of marketing noise around about that and of course they've promised in our a D2 database which of course is R2D2 RR they've launched a developer platform cloudflare can be thought of kind of like first of all a modern CDN they've got a simpler security model that's how they compete for example with z-scaler that brings uh they also bring VPN sd-wan and DDOS protection services that are that are part of the network and they're less expensive than AWS that's kind of their sort of go to market and messaging and value proposition and they're positioning themselves as a neutral Network that can connect across multiple clouds now to be clear unlike AWS in particular cloudflare is not well suited to lift and shift your traditional apps like for instance sap Hana you're not going to run that in on cloudflare's platform rather the company started by making websites more secure and faster and it flew under the radar and much in the same way that clay Christensen described the disruption in the steel industry if you've seen that where new entrants picked off the low margin rebar business then moved up the stack we've used that analogy in the semiconductor business with arm and and even China cloudflare is running a similar playbook in the cloud and in the network so in the early part of the last decade as aws's ascendancy was becoming more clear many of us started thinking about how and where firms could compete and add value as AWS is becoming so dominant so for instance take an industry Focus you could do things like data sharing with snowflake eventually you know uh popularized you could build on top of clouds again snowflake is doing that as are others you could build private clouds and of course connect to hybrid clouds but not many had the wherewithal and or the hutzpah to build out a Global Network that could serve as a connecting platform for cloud services cloudflare has traction in the market as it adds new services like zero trust and object store or database its Tam continues to grow here's a quick snapshot of cloudflare's financials relative to Z scalar which is both a competitor and a customer fastly which is a smaller CDN and Akamai a more mature CDN slash Edge platform cloudflare and fastly both reported earnings this past week Cloud Fair Cloud flare surpassed a billion dollar Revenue run rate but they gave tepid guidance and the stock got absolutely crushed today which is Friday but the company's business model is sound it's growing close to 50 annually it has sas-like gross margins in the mid to high 70s and it's it it's got a very strong balance sheet and a 13x revenue run rate multiple in fact it's Financial snapshot is quite close to that of z-scaler which is kind of interesting which zinc sailor of course doesn't own its own network that's a pure play software company fastly is much smaller and growing more slowly than cloudflare hence its lower multiple well Akamai as you can see is a more mature company but it's got a nice business now on its earnings call this week cloudflare announced that its head of sales was stepping down and the company has brought in a new leader to take the firm to five billion dollars in sales I think actually its current sales leader felt like hey you know my work is done here bring on somebody else to take it to the next level the company is promising to be free cash flow positive by the end of the year and is working hard toward its long-term financial model or so working towards sorry it's a long-term financial model with gross margin Targets in the mid 70s it's targeting 20 non-gaap operating margins so so solid you know very solid not like completely off the charts but you know very good and to our knowledge it has not committed to a long-term growth rate but at that sort of operating profit level you would like to see growth be consistently at least in the 20 range so they could at least be a rule of 40 company or perhaps even even five even higher if they're going to continue to command a premium valuation okay let's take a look at the ETR data ETR is very positive on cloudflare and has recently published a report on the company like many companies cloudflare is seeing an across the board slowdown in spending velocity we've reported on this quite extensively using the ETR data to quantify the degree to that Slowdown and on the data set with ETR we see that many customers they're shifting their spend to Flat spend you know plus or minus let's say you know single digits you know two three percent or even zero or in the market we're seeing a shift from paid to free tiers remember cloudflare offers a lot of free services as you're seeing customers maybe turn off the pay for a while and going with the freebie but we're also seeing some larger customers in the data and the fortune 1000 specifically they're actually spending more which was confirmed on cloudflare's earnings call they did say everything across the board was softer but they did also indicate that some of their larger customers are actually growing faster than their smaller customers and their churn is very very low here's a two-dimensional graphic we'd like to share this view a lot it's got Net score or spending momentum on the vertical axis and overlap or pervasiveness in the survey on the horizontal axis and this cut isolates three segments in the etrs taxonomy that cloudflare plays in Cloud security and networking now the table inserted in that upper left there shows the raw data which informs the position of each company in the dots with Net score in the ends listed in that rightmost column the red dotted line indicates a highly elevated Net score and finally we posted the breakdown those colors in the bottom right of cloudflare's Net score the lime green that's new adoptions the forest green is we're spending more six percent or more the gray is flat plus or minus uh five percent and you can see that the majority of customers you can see that's the majority of the customers that gray area the pink is we're spending Less in other words down six percent or worse and the bright red is churn which is minimal one percent very good indicator for for cloudflare what you do to get etr's proprietary Net score and they've done this for many many quarters so we have that time series data you subtract the Reds from the greens and that's Net score cloudflare is at 39 just under that magic red line now note that cloudflare and zscaler are right on top of each other Cisco has a dominant position on the x-axis that cloudflare and others are eyeing AWS is also dominant but note that its Net score is well above the red dotted line it's incredible Palo Alto networks is also very impressive it's got both a strong presence on the horizontal axis and it's got a Net score that's pretty comparable to cloudflare and z-scaler to much smaller companies Akamai is actually well positioned for a reasonably mature company and you can see fastly ATT Juniper and F5 have far less spending momentum on their platforms than does cloudflare but at least they are in positive Net score territory so what's going to be really interesting to see is whether cloudflare can continue to hold this momentum or even accelerate it as we've seen with some other clouds as it scales its Network and keeps adding more and more services cloudflare has a couple of potential strategic vectors that we want to talk about and it'll be going to be interesting to see how that plays out Now One path is to compete more directly as a Cloud Player offering secure access Edge services like firewall as a service and zero Trust Services like data loss prevention email security from its area one acquisition and other zero trust offerings as well as Network Services like routing and network connectivity this is The Sweet Spot of the company load balancing many others and then add in things like Object Store and database Services more Edge services in the future it might be telecom like services such as Network switching for offices so that's one route and cloudflare is clearly on that path more services more cohorts at innovating and and growing the company and bringing in more Revenue increasing acvs and and increasing long-term value and keeping retention high now the other Vector is what we're just going to refer to as super cloud as an enabler of cross-cloud infrastructure this is new value uh relative to the former Vector that we were just talking about now the title of this episode is what multi-cloud should have been meaning cloudflare could be the control plane providing a consistent experience across clouds one that is fast and secure at global scale now to give you Insight on this let's take a look at some of the comments made by Matthew Prince the CEO and co-founder of cloudflare cloudflare put its R2 Object Store into public beta this past May and I believe it's storing around a petabyte of data today I think that's what they said in their call here's what Prince said about that quote we are talking to very large companies about moving more and more of their stored objects to where we can store that with R2 and one of the benefits is not only can we help them save money on the egress fees but it allows them to then use those object stores or objects across any of the different Cloud platforms they're that they're using so by being that neutral third party we can let people adopt a little bit of Amazon a little bit of Microsoft a little bit of Google a little bit of SAS vendors and share that data across all those different places so what's interesting about this in the super cloud context is it suggests that customers could take the best of each Cloud to power their digital businesses I might like AWS for in redshift for my analytic database or I love Google's machine learning Microsoft's collaboration and I'd like a consistent way to connect those resources but of course he's strongly hinting and has made many public statements that aws's egress fees are a blocker to that vision now at a recent investor event Matthew Prince added some color to this concept when he talked about one metric of success being how much R2 capacity was consumed and how much they sold but perhaps a more interesting Benchmark is highlighted by the following statement that he made he said a completely different measure of success for R2 is Andy jassy says I'm sick and tired of these guys meaning cloudflare taking our objects away we're dropping our egress fees to zero I would be so excited because we've then unlocked the ability to be the network that interconnects the cloud together now of course it would be Adam solipski who would be saying that or maybe Andy Jesse you know still watching over AWS and I think it's highly unlikely that that's going to happen anytime soon and that of course but but in theory gets us closer to the super cloud value proposition and to further drive that point home and we're paraphrasing a little bit his comments here he said something the effect of quote customers need one consistent control plane across clouds and we are the neutral Network that can be consistent no matter which Cloud you're using interesting right that Prince sees the world that's similar to if not nearly identical to the concepts that the cube Community has been putting forth around supercloud now this vision is a ways off let's be real Prince even suggested that his initial vision of an application running across multiple clouds you know that's like super cloud Nirvana isn't what customers are doing today that's that's really hard to do and perhaps you know it's never going to happen but there's a little doubt that cloudflare could be and is positioning itself as that cross-cloud control plane it has the network economics and the business model levers to pull it's got an edge up on the competition at the edge pun intended cloudflare is the definition of Edge and it's distributed platform it's decentralized platform is much better suited for Edge workloads than these giant data centers that are you know set up to to try and handle that today the the hyperscalers are building out you know their Edge networks things like outposts you know going out to the edge and other local zones Etc now cloudflare is increasingly competitive to the hyperscalers and those traditional Stacks that it depositioned on an earlier slide that we showed but you know the likes of AWS and Dell and hpe and Cisco and those others they're not sitting in their hands they have a huge huge customer install bases and they are definitely a moving Target they're investing and they're building out their own Super clouds with really robust stacks as well let's face it it's going to take a decade or more for Enterprises to adopt a developer platform or a new database Cloud plus cloudflare's capabilities when compared to incumbent stacks and the hyperscalers is much less robust in these areas and even in storage you know despite all the great conversation that R2 generated and the buzz you take a specialist like Wasabi they're more mature they're more functional and they're way cheaper even than cloudflare so you know it's not a fake a complete that cloudflare is going to win in those markets but we love the disruption and if cloudflare wants to be the fourth us-based hyperscaler or join the the big four as the as the fifth if we put Alibaba in the mix it's got a lot of work to do in the ecosystem by its own admission as much to learn and is part of the value by the way that it sees in its area one acquisition it's email security company that it bought but even in that case much of the emphasis has been on reseller channels compare that to the AWS ecosystem which is not only a channel play but is as much an innovation flywheel filling gaps where companies like snowflake Thrive side by side with aws's data stores as well all the on-prem stacks are building hybrid connections to AWS and other clouds as a means of providing consistent experiences across clouds indeed many of them see what they call cross-cloud services or what we call super cloud hyper cloud or whatever you know Mega Cloud you want to call it we use super cloud they are really eyeing that opportunity so very few companies frankly are not going after that space but we're going to close with this cloudflare is one of those companies that's in a position to wake up each morning and ask who can we disrupt today and very few companies are in a position to disrupt the hyperscalers to the degree that cloudflare is and that my friends is going to be fascinating to watch unfold all right let's call it a wrap I want to thank Alex Meyerson who's on production and manages the podcast as well as Ken schiffman who's our newest addition to the Boston Studio Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight help us get the word out on social media and in our newsletters and Rob Hof is our editor-in-chief over at silicon angle thank you to all remember all these episodes are available as podcasts wherever you listen all you're going to do is search breaking analysis podcasts I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com or DM me at divalante if you comment on my LinkedIn posts and please do check out etr.ai they got the best survey data in the Enterprise Tech business this is Dave vellante for the cube insights powered by ETR thank you very much for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis

>>Hey, everyone. Welcome back to San Francisco. Lisa Martin and John furrier live on the floor at VMware Explorer, 2022. This is our third day of wall to wall coverage on the cube. But you know that cuz you've been here the whole time. We're pleased to welcome up. First timer to the cubes we saw is here. The CEO and founder of ZDA. Saed welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me >>Talk to me a little bit about what ZDA does in edge. >>Sure. So ZDA is a company purely focused in edge computing. I started a company about five years ago, go after edge. So what we do is we help customers with orchestrating their edge, helping them to deploy secure monitor application services and devices at the edge. >>What's the business model for you guys. We get that out there. So the targeting the edge, which is everything from telco to whatever. Yeah. What's the business model. Yeah. >>Maybe before we go there, let's talk about edge itself. Cuz edge is complex. There's a lot of companies. I call 'em lens company nowadays, if you're not a cloud company, you're probably an edge company at this point. So we are focusing something called the distributed edge. So distributed edge. When you start putting tiny servers in environments like factory floors, solar farms, wind farms, even inside machines or well sites, et cetera. And a question that people always ask me, like why, why would you want to put, you know, servers there on servers supposed to be in a data center in the cloud? And the answer to the question actually is data gravity. So traditionally wherever the data gets created is where your applications live. But as we're connecting more and more devices to the edge of the network, we basically customers now are required to push the applications to the edge cause they can't go all the data to the cloud. So basically that's where we focus on people call it the far edge as well. You know, that's the term we've heard in the past as well. And what we do in our business model is provide customers a, a software as a service solution where they can basically deploy and monitor these applications at these highly distributed environments. >>Data, gravity comes up a lot and I want you to take a minute to explain the definition as it is today. And people have used that term, you know, with big data, going back to 2010 leads when we covering the Hadoop wave, which ended up becoming, you know, data, data, bricks, and snowflake now, but, but a lots changed, but what does it mean to be data gravity? It means that staying local, it's just what specifically describe and, and define what data gravity is. >>Yeah. So for me, data gravity is where you need to process the data, right? It's where the data usually gets created. So if you think about a web app, where does the data get created? Where people click on buttons, they, they interface with it. They, they upload content to it, et cetera. So that's where the data gravity therefore is therefore that's where you do your analytics. That's where you do your visualization processing, machine learning and all of those pieces. So it's really where that data gets created is where the data gravity in my view says, >>What are some of the challenges that data and opportunities that data gravity presents to customers? >>Well, obviously I think every enterprise in this day is trying to take data and make it a competitive advantage, right? Like faster decisions, better decisions, outcompete your competition by, you know, being first with a product or being first with a product with the future, et cetera. So, so I think, you know, if you're not a data driven enterprise by now, then I think the future may be a little bit bleak. >>Okay. So you're targeting the market distributed edge business model, SAS technology, secret sauce. What's that piece. >>Yeah. So that's, that's what the interesting part comes in. I think, you know, if you kind of look at the data center in the cloud, we've had these virtualization and orchestration stacks create, I mean, we're here in VMware Explorer. And as an example, what we basically, what we saw is that the edge is so unique and so different than what we've seen in the data center, in the cloud that we needed to build a complete brand new purpose-built illustration and virtualization solution. So that's really what we, we set off to do. So there's two components that we do. One end is we built a purpose-built edge operating system for the edge and we actually open sourced it. And the reason we opensource it, we said, Hey, you know, edge is so diverse. You know, depending on the environment you're running in a machine or in a vehicle or in a well site, you have different hardware, different networks, different applications you need to enable. >>And we will never be able to support all of them ourselves. As a matter of fact, we actually think there's a need for standardization at the edge. We need to kind of cut through all these silos that have been created traditionally from the embedded way of thinking. So we created basically an open source project in the Linux foundation in LFS, which is a sister organization through the CNCF it's called project Eve. And the idea is to create the Android of the edge, basically what Android became for mobile computing, an a common operating system. So you build one app. You can run in any phone in the world that runs Android, build an architecture. You build one app. You can run in any Eve powered node in the world, >>So distributed edge and you get the tech here, get the secret sauce. We'll get more into that in a second, but I wanna just tie one kick quick point and get your clarification on edge is becoming much more about the physical side too. I mean, absolutely. So when you talk about Android, you're making the reference of a phone. I get that's metaphor to what you're doing at the edge, wind farms, factories, alarms, light bulbs, buildings. I mean, that's what you're talking about, right? Yes. We're getting down to that very, >>Very physical, dark distributed locations. >>We're gonna come back to the CISO CSO. We're gonna come back to the CISO versus CSO question because is the CISO or CIO or who runs that anyway? So that's true. What's the important thing that's happening because that sounds like old OT world, like yes. Operating technology, not it information technology, is it a complete reset of those worlds or is it a collision? >>It's a great question. So what we're seeing is first of all, there is already compute in these environments, industrial PCs of existed well beyond, you know, an industrial automation has been done for many, many decades. The point is that that stuff has been done. Collect data has been collected, but never connected, right? So with edge computing, we're connecting now this data from an industrial machine and industrial process to the cloud, right? And one of the problems is it's data that comes of that industrial process too much to upload to the cloud. So I gotta analyze, analyze it locally. So one of the, the things we saw early on in edge is there's a lot of brownfield. Most of our customers today actually have applications running on windows and they would love to make in Linux and containers and Kubernetes, but it took them 20, 30 years to build those apps. And they basically are the money makers of the enterprise. So they are in a, in a transitionary phase and they need something that can take them from the brown to the Greenfield. So to your point, you gotta support all of these types of unique brownfield applications. >>So you're, you're saying I don't really care if this is a customer, how you get the data, you wanna start new start fresh. That's cool. But if you wanna take your old data, you'll >>Take that. Yeah. You don't wanna rebuild the whole machine. You're >>Just, they can life cycle it out on their own timetable. Yeah. >>So we had to learn, first of all, how do we take and lift and shift windows based industrial application and make it run at the edge on, on our architecture. Right? And then the second step is how do we then Sen off that data that this application is generating and do we fuse it with cloud native capability? Like, >>So your cloud, so your staff is your open source that you're giving to the Linux foundation as part of that Eve project that's available to everybody. So they can, they can look at the code, which is great by the way. Yeah. So people wanna do that. Yeah. Your self source, I'm assuming, is your hardened version with support? >>Well, we took what we took, what the open source companies did, opensource companies traditionally have sold, you know, basically a support model around the open source. We actually saw another problem. Customers has like, okay, now I have this node running and I can, you know, do this data analytics, but what if I have 15 or 20,000 of these node? And they're all around the world in remote locations on satellite links or wireless connectivity, how do I orchestrate them? So we actually build an orchestration service for these nodes running this open source >>Software. So that's a key secret sauce right there. >>That is the business model that taking open store and a lot. >>And you're taking your own code that you have. Okay. Got it. Cool. And then the customer's customer piece is, is key. So that's the final piece, I guess who's using it. >>Yeah. Well, and, >>And, and one of the business outcomes that they're achieving. Oh >>Yeah. Well, so maybe start with that first. I mean, we are deployed in customers in all and gas, for instance, helping them with the transition to renewable energy, right? So basically we, we have customers for instance, that deploy us in the, how they drill Wells is one use case and doing that better, faster, and cheaper and, and less environmental impacting. But we also have customers that use us in wind farms. We have, and solar farms, like we, one of the leading solar energy companies in the world is using us to bring down the cost of power by predicting failures ahead of time, for >>Instance. And when you're working with customers to create the optimal solution at the distributed edge, who are you working with in, within an organization? Yeah. >>It's usually a mix of OT and it people. Okay. So the OT people typically they're >>Arm wrestling, well, or they're getting along, actually, >>I think they're getting along very well. Okay, good. But they also agree that they have to have swim lanes. The it folks, obviously their job is to make sure, you know, everything is secure. Everything is according to the compliance it's, it's, you know, the, the best TCO on the infrastructure, those type of things, the OT guy, they, they, or girl, they care about the application. They care about the services. They care about the support new business. So how can you create a model that too can coexist? And if you do that, they get along really well. >>You know, we had an event called Supercloud and@theurlsupercloud.world, if you're watching check it out, it's our version of what we think multicloud will merge into including edge cuz edge is just another node in the, in the, in the network. As far as we're concerned, hybrid is the steady state. That's distributed computing on premise, private cloud, public cloud. We know what that looks like. People love that things are happening. Edge is like a whole nother new area. That's blossoming and with disruption, yeah. There's a lot of existing market and incumbents that need to be disrupted. And there's also a new capabilities that are coming that we don't yet see. So we're seeing it with the super cloud idea that these new kinds of clouds are emerging. Like there could be an edge cloud. Yeah. Why isn't there a security cloud, whereas the financial services cloud, whereas the insurance cloud, whereas the, so these become super clouds where the CapEx could be done by the Amazon, whatnot you've been following them is edge cloud. Can you make that a cloud? Is that what you guys are trying to do? And if so, what does that look like? Cause we we're adding a new track to our super cloud site. I mentioned on edge specifically, we're trying to figure out you and if you share your opinion, it'd be great. Can the E can edge clouds exist and be run by companies? Yeah. Or is that what you guys are trying to do? >>I, I, I mean, I think first of all, there is no edge without cloud, right? So when I meet any customer who says, Hey, we're gonna do edge without cloud. Then I'm like, you're probably not gonna do edge computing. Right. And, and the way we built the company and the way we think about it, it's about extending the cloud experience all the way into these embedded distributed environments. That's really, I think what customers are looking for, cuz customers love the simplicity of the cloud. They love the ease of use agility, all of that greatness. And they're like, Hey, I want that. But not in a, you know, in an Amazon or Azure data center. I want that in my factories. I want that in my wealth sites, in my vehicles. And that's really what I think the future >>Is gonna. And how long have you guys been around? What's the, what's the history of the company because you might actually be that cloud. Yeah. And are you on AWS or Azure? You're building your own. What's the, >>Yeah. Yeah. So >>Take it through the, the architecture because yeah, yeah, sure. You're a modern startup. I mean you gotta, and the edges you're going after you gotta be geared up. Yeah. To win that. Yeah. >>So, so the company's about five years old. So we, when we started focusing on edge, people didn't necessarily talk as much about edge. We kind of identified the it's like, you know, how do you find a black hole in, in the universe? Cuz you can't see it, but you sort of look around that's why you in it. And so we were like looking at it, like there's something gonna happen here at the edge of the network, because everybody's saying we're connecting these vice upload the data to the cloud's never gonna work. My background is networking. I worked at companies like Juniper and Ericsson ran several products there. So I know how the internet networks have built. And it was very Evan to me. It's not gonna be possible. My co-founders come from open source companies like pivotal and Cloudera. My auto co-founder was a, an engineer at sun Microsystems built the first network stack in the solar is operating system. So a lot of experience that kind of came together to build this. >>Yeah. Cloudera is a big day. That's where the cube started by the way. Yeah. >>Yeah. So, so we, we, we have, I think a good view on the stack, the cloud stack and therefore a good view of what the ed stack needs to look like. And then I think, you know, to answer your other question, our orchestration service runs in the cloud. We have, we actually are multi-cloud company. So we offer customers choice where they want to orchestrate the node from the nodes themself, never sit in a data center. They always highly embedded. We have customers are putting machines or inside these factory lines, et cetera. Are >>You running your SAS on Amazon web services or which >>Cloud we're running it on several clouds, including Amazon, all of, pretty much the cloud. So some customers say, Hey, I'd prefer to be on the Amazon set. And others customers say, I wanna be on Azure set. >>And you leverage their CapEx on that side. Yes. On behalf of yeah. >>Yeah. We, yes. Yes. But the majority of the customer data and, and all the data that the nodes process, the customer send it to their clouds. They don't send it to us. We don't get a copy of the camera feed analytics or the machine data. We actually decouple those though. So basically the, the team production data go straight to the customer's cloud and that's why they love us. >>And they choose that they can control their own desktop. >>Yeah. So we separate the management plane from the data plane at the edge. Yeah. >>That's a good call >>Actually. Yeah. That was another very important part of the architecture early on. Cause customers don't want us to see their, you know, highly confidential production data and we don't wanna have it either. So >>We had a great chat with Chris Wolf who works with kit culvert about control plane, data, plane. So that seems to be the trend data, plane customers want full yeah. Management of that. Yeah. Control plane. Maybe give multiple >>Versions. Yeah. Yeah. So our cloud consumption what the data we stories about the apps, their behavior, the networking, the security, all of that. That's what we store in our cloud. And then customers can access that and monitor. But the actual machine that I go somewhere else >>Here we are at VMware. Explore. Talk a little bit about the VMware relationship. You just had some big news the other day. >>Yeah. So two days ago we actually made a big announcement with VMware. So we signed an OEM agreement with VMware. So we're part now of VMware's edge compute stack. So VMware customers, as they start using the recently announced edge compute stack 2.0, that was announced here. Basically it's powered by Edda technology. So it's a really exciting partnership as part of this, we actually building integrations with the VMware organization products. So that's basically now extending to more, you know, other groups inside VMware. >>So what's the value in it for VMware customers. >>Yeah. So I think the, the, the benefit of, of VMware customers, I think cus VMware customers want that multi-cloud multi edge orchestration experience. So they wanna be able to deploy workloads in the cloud. They wanna deploy the workloads in the data center. And of course also at the edge. So by us integrating in that vision customers now can have that unified experience from cloud to edge and anywhere in between. >>What's the big vision that you see happening at the edge. I mean, a lot of the VMware customers here, they're classic it that have evolved into ops now, dev ops. Now you've got second data ops coming. The edge is gonna right around the corner for them. They're dealing with it now, probably just kicking the tires, towing the water kind of thing. Where do you see the vision going? Cuz now, no matter what happens with VMware, the Broadcom, this wave is still here. You got AWS, got Azure, got Google cloud, you got Oracle, Alibaba internationally. And the cloud native surges here. How do you see that disrupting the existing edge? Because let's face it the O some of those OT players, a little bit old and antiquated, a little bit outdated. I mean, I was talking to a telco person. They, they puked the word open source. I mean, these people are so dogmatic on, on their architecture. Yeah. They're gonna get disrupted. It's a matter of time. Yeah. Where's the new guard come in. How do you see the configuration changing in the landscape? Because some people will cross over to the right side of the street here. Yeah. Some won't yeah. Open circle. Dominate cloud native will be key. Yeah. >>Well, I mean, I think, again, let's, let's take an example of a vertical that's heavily disrupted now as the automotive market, right? The, so look at Tesla and look at all these companies, they built, they built software first cars, right? Software, first delivery of capabilities and everything else. And the, and the incumbents. They have only two options, right? Either they try to respond by adopting open source cloud, native technologies. Like the, these new entrants have done and really, you know, compete with them at that level, or they can become commodity. Right. So, and I think that's the customers we're seeing the smart customers go like, we need to compete with these guys. We need to figure out how to take this technology in. And they need partners like us and partners like VMware for them. >>Do you see customers becoming cloud super cloud players? If they continue to keep leveraging the CapEx of the clouds and focus all their operational capital on top line revenue, generating activities. >>Yeah. I, so I think the CapEx model of the cloud is a great benefit of the cloud, but I think that is not, what's the longer term future of the cloud. I think the op the cloud operating model is the future. Like the agility, the ability imagine embedded software that, you know, you do an over the year update to fix a bug, but it's very hard to make a, an embedded device smarter over time. And then imagine if you can run cloud native software, you can roll out every two weeks new features and make that thing smarter, intelligent, and continue to help you in your business. That I think is what cloud did ultimately. And I think that is what really these customers are gonna need at their edge. >>Well, we talked about the value within it for customers with the VMware partnership, but what are some of your expectations? Obviously, this is a pretty powerful partnership for you guys. Yeah. What are some of the things that you're expecting that this is gonna drive? Yeah, >>So we, we, we have always operated at the more OT layer, distributed organizations in retail, energy, industrial automotive. Those are the verticals we, so we've developed. I think a lot of experience there, what, what we're seeing as we talk to those customers is they obviously have it organizations and the it organizations, Hey, that's great. You're looking at its computing, but how do we tie this into the existing investments we made with VMware? And how do we kind of take that also to this new environment? And I think that's the expectation I have is that I think we will be able to, to talk to the it folks and say, Hey, you can actually talk to the OT person. And both of you will speak the same language. You probably will both standardize on the same architecture and you'll be together deploying and enabling this new agility at the edge. >>What are some of the next things coming up for ZDA and the team? >>Well, so we've had a really amazing few quarters. We just close a series B round. So we've raised the companies raised over 55 million so far, we're growing very rapidly. We opened up no new international offices. I would say the, the early customers that we started deploying, wait a while back, they're now going into mass scale deployment. So we have now deployments underway in, you know, the 10 to hundred thousands of nodes at certain customers and in amazing environments. And so, so for us, it's continuing to prove the product in more and more verticals. Our, our product is really built for the largest of the largest. So, you know, for the size of the company, we are, we have a high concentration of fortune 500 global 500 customers, and some of them even invested in our rounds recently. So we we've been really, you know, honored with that support. Well, congratulations. Good stuff, edges popping. All right. Thank you. >>Thank you so much for joining us, talking about what you're doing in distributed edge. What's in it for customers, the VMware partnership, and by the way, congratulations on >>That too. Thank you. Thank you so much. Nice to meet you. Thank >>You. All right. Nice to meet you as well for our guest and John furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from VMware Explorer, 22, John and I will be right back with our next guest.