(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to this CUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California. We've got Sam Kassoumeh, co-founder and chief operating office at SecurityScorecard here remotely coming in. Thanks for coming on Sam. Security, Sam. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. >> Love the security conversations. I love what you guys are doing. I think this idea of managed services, SaaS. Developers love it. Operation teams love getting into tools easily and having values what you guys got with SecurityScorecard. So let's get into what we were talking before we came on. You guys have a unique solution around ratings, but also it's not your grandfather's pen test want to be security app. Take us through what you guys are doing at SecurityScorecard. >> Yeah. So just like you said, it's not a point in time assessment and it's similar to a traditional credit rating, but also a little bit different. You can really think about it in three steps. In step one, what we're doing is we're doing threat intelligence data collection. We invest really heavily into R&D function. We never stop investing in R&D. We collect all of our own data across the entire IPV force space. All of the different layers. Some of the data we collect is pretty straightforward. We might crawl a website like the example I was giving. We might crawl a website and see that the website says copyright 2005, but we know it's 2022. Now, while that signal isn't enough to go hack and break into the company, it's definitely a signal that someone might not be keeping things up to date. And if a hacker saw that it might encourage them to dig deeper. To more complex signals where we're running one of the largest DNS single infrastructures in the world. We're monitoring command and control malware and its behaviors. We're essentially collecting signals and vulnerabilities from the entire IPV force space, the entire network layer, the entire web app player, leaked credentials. Everything that we think about when we talk about the security onion, we collect data at each one of those layers of the onion. That's step one. And we can do all sorts of interesting insights and information and reports just out of that thread intel. Now, step two is really interesting. What we do is we go identify the attack surface area or what we call the digital footprint of any company in the world. So as a customer, you can simply type in the name of a company and we identify all of the domains, sub domains, subsidiaries, organizations that are identified on the internet that belong to that organization. So every digital asset of every company we go out and we identify that and we update that every 24 hours. And step three is the rating. The rating is probabilistic and it's deterministic. The rating is a benchmark. We're looking at companies compared to their peers of similar size within the same industry and we're looking at how they're performing. And it's probabilistic in the sense that companies that have an F are about seven to eight times more likely to experience a breach. We're an A through F scale, universally understood. Ds and Fs, more likely to experience a breach. A's we see less breaches now. Like I was mentioning before, it doesn't mean that an F is always going to get hacked or an A can never get hacked. If a nation state targets an A, they're going to eventually get in with enough persistence and budget. If the pizza shop on the corner has an F, they may never get hacked because no one cares, but natural correlation, more doors open to the house equals higher likelihood someone unauthorized is going to walk in. So it's really those three steps. The collection, we map it to the surface area of the company and then we produce a rating. Today we're rating about 12 million companies every single day. >> And how many people do you have as customers? >> We have 50,000 organizations using us, both free and paid. We have a freemium tier where just like Yelp or a LinkedIn business profile. Any company in the world has a right to go claim the score. We never extort companies to fix the score. We never charge a company to see the score or fix it. Any company in a world without paying us a cent can go in. They can understand what we're seeing about them, what a hacker could see about their environment. And then we empower them with the tools to fix it and they can fix it and the score will go up. Now companies pay us because they want enterprise capabilities. They want additional modules, insights, which we can talk about. But in total, there's about 50,000 companies that at any given point in time, they're monitoring about a million and a half organizations of the 12 million that we're rating. It sounds like Google. >> If you want to look at it. >> Sounds like Google Search you got going on there. You got a lot of search and then you create relevance, a score, like a ranking. >> That's precisely it. And that's exactly why Google ventures invested in us in our Series B round. And they're on our board. They looked and they said, wow, you guys are building like a Google Search engine over some really impressive threat intelligence. And then you're distilling it into a score which anybody in the world can easily understand. >> Yeah. You obviously have page rank, which changed the organic search business in the late 90s, early 2000s and the rest is history. AdWords. >> Yeah. >> So you got a lot of customer growth there potentially with the opt-in customer view, but you're looking at this from the outside in. You're looking at companies and saying, what's your security posture? Getting a feel for what they got going on and giving them scores. It sounds like it's not like a hacker proof. It's just more of a indicator for management and the team. >> It's an indicator. It's an indicator. Because today, when we go look at our vendors, business partners, third parties were flying blind. We have no idea how they're doing, how they're performing. So the status quo for the last 20 years has been perform a risk assessments, send a questionnaire, ask for a pen test and an audit evidence. We're trying to break that cycle. Nobody enjoys it. They're long tail. It's a trust without verification. We don't really like that. So we think we can evolve beyond this point in time assessment and give a continuous view. Now, today, historically, we've been outside in. Not intrusive, and we'll show you what a hacker can see about an environment, but we have some cool things percolating under the hood that give more of a 360 view outside, inside, and also a regulatory compliance view as well. >> Why is the compliance of the whole third party thing that you're engaging with important? Because I mean, obviously having some sort of way to say, who am I dealing with is important. I mean, we hear all kinds of things in the security landscape, oh, zero trust, and then we hear trust, supply chain, software risk, for example. There's a huge trust factor there. I need to trust this tool or this container. And then you got the zero trust, don't trust anything. And then you've got trust and verify. So you have all these different models and postures, and it just seems hard to keep up with. >> Sam: It's so hard. >> Take us through what that means 'cause pen tests, SOC reports. I mean the clouds help with the SOC report, but if you're doing agile, anything DevOps, you basically would need to do a pen test like every minute. >> It's impossible. The market shifted to the cloud. We watched and it still is. And that created a lot of complexity, not to date myself. But when I was starting off as a security practitioner, the data center used to be in the basement and I would have lunch with the database administrator and we talk about how we were protecting the data. Those days are long gone. We outsource a lot of our key business practices. We might use, for example, ADP for a payroll provider or Dropbox to store our data. But we've shifted and we no longer no who that person is that's protecting our data. They're sitting in another company in another area unknown. And I think about 10, 15 years ago, CISOs had the realization, Hey, wait a second. I'm relying on that third party to function and operate and protect my data, but I don't have any insight, visibility or control of their program. And we were recommended to use questionnaires and audit forms, and those are great. It's good hygiene. It's good practice. Get to know the people that are protecting your data, ask them the questions, get the evidence. The challenge is it's point in time, it's limited. Sometimes the information is inaccurate. Not intentionally, I don't think people intentionally want to go lie, but Hey, if there's a $50 million deal we're trying to close and it's dependent on checking this one box, someone might bend a rule a little bit. >> And I said on theCUBE publicly that I think pen test reports are probably being fudged and dates being replicated because it's just too fast. And again, today's world is about velocity on developers, trust on the code. So you got all kinds of trust issues. So I think verification, the blue check mark on Twitter kind of thing going on, you're going to see a lot more of that and I think this is just the beginning. I think what you guys are doing is scratching the surface. I think this outside in is a good first step, but that's not going to solve the internal problem that still coming and have big surface areas. So you got more surface area expanding. I mean, IOT's coming in, the Edge is coming fast. Never mind hybrid on-premise cloud. What's your organizations do to evaluate the risk and the third party? Hands shaking, verification, scorecards. Is it like a free look here or is it more depth to it? Do you double click on it? Take us through how this evolves. >> John it's become so disparate and so complex, Because in addition to the market moving to the cloud, we're now completely decentralized. People are working from home or working hybrid, which adds more endpoints. Then what we've learned over time is that it's not just a third party problem, because guess what? My third parties behind the scenes are also using third parties. So while I might be relying on them to process my customer's payment information, they're relying on 20 vendors behind the scene that I don't even know about. I might have an A, they might have an A. It's really important that we expand beyond that. So coming out of our innovation hub, we've developed a number of key capabilities that allow us to expand the value for the customer. One, you mentioned, outside in is great, but it's limited. We can see what a hacker sees and that's helpful. It gives us pointers where to maybe go ask double click, get comfort, but there's a whole nother world going on behind the firewall inside of an organization. And there might be a lot of good things going on that CISO security teams need to be rewarded for. So we built an inside module and component that allows teams to start plugging in the tools, the capabilities, keys to their cloud environments. And that can show anybody who's looking at the scorecard. It's less like a credit score and more like a social platform where we can go and look at someone's profile and say, Hey, how are things going on the inside? Do they have two-factor off? Are there cloud instances configured correctly? And it's not a point in time. This is a live connection that's being made. This is any point in time, we can validate that. The other component that we created is called an evidence locker. And an evidence locker, it's like a secure vault in my scorecard and it allows me to upload things that you don't really stand for or check for. Collateral, compliance paperwork, SOC 2 reports. Those things that I always begrudgingly email. I don't want to share with people my trade secrets, my security policies, and have it sit on their exchange server. So instead of having to email the same documents out, 300 times a month, I just upload them to my evidence locker. And what's great is now anybody following my scorecard can proactively see all the great things I'm doing. They see the outside view. They see the inside view. They see the compliance view. And now they have the holy grail view of my environment and can have a more intelligent conversation. >> Access to data and access methods are an interesting innovation area around data lineage. Tracing is becoming a big thing. We're seeing that. I was just talking with the Snowflake co-founder the other day here in theCUBE about data access and they're building a proprietary mesh on top of the clouds to figure out, Hey, I don't want to give just some tool access to data because I don't know what's on the other side of those tools. Now they had a robust ecosystem. So I can see this whole vendor risk supply chain challenge around integration as a huge problem space that you guys are attacking. What's your reaction to that? >> Yeah. Integration is tricky because we want to be really particular about who we allow access into our environment or where we're punching holes in the firewall and piping data out out of the environment. And that can quickly become unwieldy just with the control that we have. Now, if we give access to a third party, we then don't have any control over who they're sharing our information with. When I talk to CISOs today about this challenge, a lot of folks are scratching their head, a lot of folks treat this as a pet project. Like how do I control the larger span beyond just the third parties? How do I know that their software partners, their contractors that they're working with building their tools are doing a good job? And even if I know, meaning, John, you might send me a list of all of your vendors. I don't want to be the bad guy. I don't really have the right to go reach out to my vendors' vendors knocking on their door saying, hi, I'm Sam. I'm working with John and he's your customer. And I need to make sure that you're protecting my data. It's an awkward chain of conversation. So we're building some tools that help the security teams hold the entire ecosystem accountable. We actually have a capability called automatic vendor discovery. We can go detect who are the vendors of a company based on the connections that we see, the inbound and outbound connections. And what often ends up happening John is we're bringing to the attention to our customers, awareness about inbound and outbound connections. They had no idea existed. There were the shadow IT and the ghost vendors that were signed without going through an assessment. We detect those connections and then they can go triage and reduce the risk accordingly. >> I think that risk assessment of vendors is key. I was just reading a story about this, about how a percentage, I forget the number. It was pretty large of applications that aren't even being used that are still on in companies. And that becomes a safe haven for bad actors to hang out and penetrate 'cause they get overlooked 'cause no one's using them, but they're still online. And so there's a whole, I called cleaning up the old dead applications that are still connected. >> That happens all the time. Those applications also have applications that are dead and applications that are alive may also have users that are dead as well. So you have that problem at the application level, at the user level. We also see a permutation of what you describe, which is leftover artifacts due to configuration mistakes. So a company just put up a new data center, a satellite office in Singapore and they hired a team to go install all the hardware. Somebody accidentally left an administrative portal exposed to the public internet and nobody knew the internet works, the lights are on, the office is up and running, but there was something that was supposed to be turned off that was left turned on. So sometimes we bring to company's attention and they say, that's not mine. That doesn't belong to me. And we're like, oh, well, we see some reason why. >> It's his fault. >> Yeah and they're like, oh, that was the contractor set up the thing. They forgot to turn off the administrative portal with the default login credentials. So we shut off those doors. >> Yeah. Sam, this is really something that's not talked about a lot in the industry that we've become so reliant on managed services and other people, CISOs, CIOs, and even all departments that have applications, even marketing departments, they become reliant on agencies and other parties to do stuff for them which inherently just increases the risk here of what they have. So there inherently could be as secure as they could be, but yet exposed completely on the other side. >> That's right. We have so many virtual touch points with our partners, our vendors, our managed service providers, suppliers, other third parties, and all the humans that are involved in that mix. It creates just a massive ripple effect. So everybody in a chain can be doing things right. And if there's one bad link, the whole chain breaks. I know it's like the cliche analogy, but it rings true. >> Supply chain trust again. Trust who you trust. Let's see how those all reconcile. So Sam, I have to ask you, okay, you're a former CISO. You've seen many movies in the industry. Co-founded this company. You're in the front lines. You've got some cool things happening. I can almost imagine the vision is a lot more than just providing a rating and score. I'm sure there's more vision around intelligence, automation. You mentioned vault, wallet capabilities, exchanging keys. We heard at re:Inforce automated reasoning, metadata reasoning. You got all kinds of crypto and quantum. I mean, there's a lot going on that you can tap into. What's your vision where you see SecurityScorecard going? >> When we started the company, the rating was the thing that we sold and it was a language that helped technical and non-technical folks alike level the playing field and talk about risk and use it to drive their strategy. Today, the rating just opens the door to that discussion and there's so much additional value. I think in the next one to two years, we're going to see the rating becomes standardized. It's going to be more frequently asked or even required or leveraged by key decision makers. When we're doing business, it's going to be like, Hey, show me your scorecard. So I'm seeing the rating get baked more and more the lexicon of risk. But beyond the rating, the goal is really to make a world a safer place. Help transform and rise the tide. So all ships can lift. In order to do that, we have to help companies, not only identify the risk, but also rectify the risk. So there's tools we build to really understand the full risk. Like we talked about the inside, the outside, the fourth parties, fifth parties, the real ecosystem. Once we identified where are all the Fs and bad things, will then what? So couple things that we're doing. We've launched a pro serve arm to help companies. Now companies don't have to pay to fix the score. Anybody, like I said, can fix the score completely free of charge, but some companies need help. They ask us and they say, Hey, I'm looking for a trusted advisor. A Sherpa, a guide to get me to a better place or they'll say, Hey, I need some pen testing services. So we've augmented a service arm to help accelerate the remediation efforts. We're also partnered with different industries that use the rating as part of a larger picture. The cyber rating isn't the end all be all. When companies are assessing risk, they may be looking at a financial ratings, ESG ratings, KYC AML, cyber security, and they're trying to form a complete risk profile. So we go and we integrate into those decision points. Insurance companies, all the top insurers, re-insurers, brokers are leveraging SecurityScorecard as an ingredient to help underwrite for cyber liability insurance. It's not the only ingredient, but it helps them underwrite and identify the help and price the risk so they can push out a policy faster. First policy is usually the one that's signed. So time to quote is an important metric. We help to accelerate that. We partner with credit rating agencies like Fitch, who are talking to board members, who are asking, Hey, I need a third party, independent verification of what my CISO is saying. So the CISO is presenting the rating, but so are the proxy advisors and the ratings companies to the board. So we're helping to inform the boards and evolve how they're thinking about cyber risk. We're helping with the insurance space. I think that, like you said, we're only scratching the surface. I can see, today we have about 50,000 companies that are engaging a rating and there's no reason why it's not going to be in the millions in just the next couple years here. >> And you got the capability to bring in more telemetry and see the new things, bring that into the index, bring that into the scorecard and then map that to potential any vulnerabilities. >> Bingo. >> But like you said, the old days, when you were dating yourself, you were in a glass room with a door lock and key and you can see who's two folks in there having lunch, talking database. No one's going to get hurt. Now that's gone, right? So now you don't know who's out there and machines. So you got humans that you don't know and you got machines that are turning on and off services, putting containers out there. Who knows what's in those payloads. So a ton of surface area and complexity to weave through. I mean only is going to get done with automation. >> It's the only way. Part of our vision includes not attempting to make a faster questionnaire, but rid ourselves of the process all altogether and get more into the continuous assessment mindset. Now look, as a former CISO myself, I don't want another tool to log into. We already have 50 tools we log into every day. Folks don't need a 51st and that's not the intent. So what we've done is we've created today, an automation suite, I call it, set it and forget it. Like I'm probably dating myself, but like those old infomercials. And look, and you've got what? 50,000 vendors business partners. Then behind there, there's another a hundred thousand that they're using. How are you going to keep track of all those folks? You're not going to log in every day. You're going to set rules and parameters about the things that you care about and you care depending on the nature of the engagement. If we're exchanging sensitive data on the network layer, you might care about exposed database. If we're doing it on the app layer, you're going to look at application security vulnerabilities. So what our customers do is they go create rules that say, Hey, if any of these companies in my tier one critical vendor watch list, if they have any of these parameters, if the score drops, if they drop below a B, if they have these issues, pick these actions and the actions could be, send them a questionnaire. We can send the questionnaire for you. You don't have to send pen and paper, forget about it. You're going to open your email and drag the Excel spreadsheet. Those days are over. We're done with that. We automate that. You don't want to send a questionnaire, send a report. We have integrations, notify Slack, create a Jira ticket, pipe it to ServiceNow. Whatever system of record, system of intelligence, workflow tools companies are using, we write in and allow them to expedite the whole. We're trying to close the window. We want to close the window of the attack. And in order to do that, we have to bring the attention to the people as quickly as possible. That's not going to happen if someone logs in every day. So we've got the platform and then that automation capability on top of it. >> I love the vision. I love the utility of a scorecard, a verification mark, something that could be presented, credential, an image, social proof. To security and an ongoing way to monitor it, observe it, update it, add value. I think this is only going to be the beginning of what I would see as much more of a new way to think about credentialing companies. >> I think we're going to reach a point, John, where and some of our customers are already doing this. They're publishing their scorecard in the public domain, not with the technical details, but an abstracted view. And thought leaders, what they're doing is they're saying, Hey, before you send me anything, look at my scorecard securityscorecard.com/securityrating, and then the name of their company, and it's there. It's in the public domain. If somebody Googles scorecard for certain companies, it's going to show up in the Google Search results. They can mitigate probably 30, 40% of inbound requests by just pointing to that thing. So we want to give more of those tools, turn security from a reactive to a proactive motion. >> Great stuff, Sam. I love it. I'm going to make sure when you hit our site, our company, we've got camouflage sites so we can make sure you get the right ones. I'm sure we got some copyright dates. >> We can navigate the decoys. We can navigate the decoys sites. >> Sam, thanks for coming on. And looking forward to speaking more in depth on showcase that we have upcoming Amazon Startup Showcase where you guys are going to be presenting. But I really appreciate this conversation. Thanks for sharing what you guys are working on. We really appreciate. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much, John. Thank you for having me. >> Okay. This is theCUBE conversation here in Palo Alto, California. Coming in from New York city is the co-founder, chief operating officer of securityscorecard.com. I'm John Furrier. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to Valencia Spain in co con cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith Townsend with my cohos on Rico senior. Etti senior it analyst at gig home. Exactly 7,500 people I'm told en Rico. What's the flavor of the show so far, >>It's a fantastic mood. I mean, I found a lot of people wanting to track talk about what they're doing with Kubernetes, sharing their, you know, stories, some word stories that meet tough. And you know, this is where you learn actually, because we had a lot of zoom calls, webinar and stuff, but it is when you talk a video, oh, I did it this way and it didn't work out very well. So, and, and you start a conversation like this that is really different from learning from zoom. When, you know, everybody talks about things that working well, they did it, right. No, it's here that you learn from other experiences. >>So we're talking to amazing people the whole week, talking about those experiences here on the queue, fresh on the queue for the first time, Chris Vos, senior software engineer at Microsoft Xbox, Chris, welcome to the queue. >>Thank you so much for having >>Me. So first off, give us a high level picture of the environment that you're running at Microsoft. >>Yeah. So, you know, we've got 20, well probably close to 30 clusters at this point around the globe, you know, 700 to a thousand pods per cluster, roughly. So about 22,000 pods total. So yeah, it's pretty pretty sizable footprint and yeah. So we've been running on Kubernetes since 2018 and well actually might be 2017, but anyways, so yeah, that, that's kind of our, our footprint. >>Yeah. So all of that, let's talk about the basics, which is security across multiple I'm assuming containers, work, microservices, et cetera. Why did you and the team settle on link or do >>Yeah, so previously we had our own kind of solution for managing TLS certs and things like that. And we found it to be pretty painful pretty quickly. And so we knew, you know, we wanted something that was a little bit more abstracted away from the developers and, and things like that that allowed us to move quickly. And so we began investigating, you know, solutions to that. And a few of our colleagues went to Cuban in San Diego in 2019 cloud native con as well. And basically they just, you know, sped it all up. And actually funny enough, my, my old manager was one of the people who was there and he went to the link D booth and they had a thing going that was like, Hey, get set up with MTLS in five minutes. And he was like, this is something we want to do, why not check this out? And he was able to do it. And so that, that put it on our radar. And so yeah, we investigated several others and Leer D just perfectly fit exactly what we needed. >>So, so in general, we are talking about, you know, security at scale. So how you manage security to scale and also flexibility, right. But you know, what is the you, this there, you told us about the five minutes to start using there, but you know, again, we are talking about word stories. We talk about, you know, all these. So what, what, what kind of challenges you found at the beginning when you start adopting this technology? >>So the biggest ones were around getting up and running with like a new service, especially in the beginning, right. We were, you know, adding a new service almost every day. It felt like. And so, you know, basically it took someone going through a whole bunch of different repos, getting approvals from everyone to get the SEARCHs minted, all that fun stuff, getting them put into the right environments and in the right clusters to make sure that, you know, everybody is talking appropriately. And just the amount of work that, that took alone was just a huge headache and a huge barrier to entry for us to, you know, quickly move up the number of services we have. So, >>So I'm, I'm trying to wrap my head around the scale of the challenge. When I think about certification or certificate management, I have to do it on a small scale and the, the, every now and again, when a certificate expires, it is just a troubleshooting pain. Yes. So as I think about that, it costs, it's not just certificates across 22,000 pods or it's certificates across 22,000 pods in multiple applications. How were you doing that before link D like, what was the, what and what were the pain points? Like? What happens when a certificate either fails or expired up not, not updated? >>So, I mean, to be completely honest, the biggest thing is we're just unable to make the calls, you know, out or, or in, based on yeah. What is failing basically. But, you know, we saw essentially an uptick in failures around a certain service and pretty quickly, I pretty quickly, we got used to the fact that it was like, oh, it's probably a cert expiration issue. And so we tried, you know, a few things in order to make that a little bit more automated and things like that, but we never came to a solution that like didn't require every engineer on the team to know essentially quite a bit about this, just to get into it, which was a huge issue. >>So talk about day two after you've deployed link D how did this alleviate software engineers and what was like the, the benefits of now having this automated way of managing >>Certs? So the biggest thing is like, there is no touch from developers, everyone on our team. Well, I mean, there are a lot of people who are familiar with security and certs and all of that stuff, but no one has to know it. Like it's not a requirement. Like for instance, I knew nothing about it when I joined the team. And even when I was setting up our newer clusters, I knew very little about it. And I was still able to really quickly set up blinker D, which was really nice. And, and it's been, you know, essentially we've been able to just kind of set it and not think about it too much. Obviously, you know, there are parts of it that you have to think about. We monitor it and all that fun stuff, but, but yeah, it's been pretty painless almost day one. It took a lot, a long time to trust it for developers. You know, anytime there was a failure, it's like, oh, could this be link or D you know, but after a while, like now we don't have that immediate assumption because people have built up that trust, but >>Also you have this massive infrastructure, I mean, 30 cluster. So I guess that it's quite different to manage a single cluster and 30. So what are the, you know, consideration that you have to do to install this software on, you know, 30 different cluster manage different, you know, versions probably etcetera, etcetera, et cetera. >>So, I mean, you know, the, the, as far as like, I guess, just to clarify, are you asking specifically with Linky or are you just asking in more in general? Well, >>I mean, you, you can take the, the question in the, in two ways, so, okay. Yeah. Yes. Link in particular, but the 30 cluster also quite interesting. >>Yeah. So, I mean, you know, more generally, you know, how we manage our clusters and things like that. We have, you know, a CLI tool that we use in order to like, change context very quickly and switch and communicate with whatever cluster we're trying to connect to and, you know, are we debugging or getting logs, whatever. And then, you know, with link D it's nice because again, you know, we, we, aren't having to worry about like, oh, how is this cert being inserted in the right node or, or not the right node, but in the right cluster or things like that. Whereas with link D we don't, we don't really have that concern when we spin up our, our clusters, essentially we get the root certificate and, and everything like that packaged up, passed along to link D on installation. And then essentially there's not much we have to do after that. >>So talk to me about your upcoming coming section here at Q con what's the, what's the high level talking points? Like what, what will attendees learn? >>Yeah. So it's, it's a journey. Those are the sorts of talks that I find useful. Having not been, you know, I, I'm not a deep Kubernetes expert from, you know, decades or whatever of experience, but I think >>Nobody is >>Also true. That's another story. That's a, that's, that's a job posting decades of requirements for >>Of course. Yeah. But so, you know, it, it's a journey it's really just like, Hey, what made us decide on a service mesh in the first place? What made us choose link D and then what are the ways in which, you know, we, we use link D so what are those, you know, we use some of the extra plugins and things like that. And then finally, a little bit about more, what we're gonna do in the future. >>Let's talk about not just necessarily the future as in two or three days from now, or two or three years from now. Well, the future after you immediately solve the, the low level problems with link D what were some of the, the surprises, because link D in service me in general has have side benefits. Do you experience any of those side benefits as well? >>Yeah, it's funny, you know, writing the, the blog post, you know, I hadn't really looked at a lot of the data in years on, you know, when we did our investigations and things like that. And we had seen that we like had very low latency and low CPU utilization and things like that. And looking at some of that, I found that we were actually saving time off of requests. And I couldn't really think of why that was, and I was talking with someone else and the biggest, unfortunately, all that data's gone now, like the source data. So I can't go back and verify this, but it, it makes sense, you know, there's the availability zone routing that linker D supports. And so I think that's actually doing it where, you know, essentially if a node is closer to another node, it's essentially, you know, routing to those ones. So when one service is talking to another service and maybe on they're on the same node, you know, it, it short circuits that, and allows us to gain some, some time there. It's not huge, but it adds up after, you know, 10, 20 calls down the line. Right. >>In general. So you are saying that it's smooth operations in, in ATS, very, you know, simplifying your life. >>And again, we didn't have to really do anything for that. It, it, it handled that for it was there. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, exactly. >>So we know one thing when I do it on my laptop, it works fine when I do it with across 22,000 pods, that's a different experience. What were some of the lessons learned coming out of KU con 2018 in San Diego was there? I wish I would've ran to the microphone folks, but what were some of the hard lessons learned scaling link D across the 22,000 nodes? >>So, you know, the, the first one, and this seems pretty obvious, but was just not something I knew about was the high availability mode of link D so obviously makes sense. You would want that in a, you know, a large scale environment. So like, that's one of the big lessons that like, we didn't ride away. No. Like one of the mistakes we made in, in one of our pre-production clusters was not turning that on. And we were kind of surprised. We were like, whoa, like all of these pods are spinning up, but they're having issues like actually getting injected and things like that. And we found, oh, okay. Yeah, you need to actually give it some, some more resources, but it's still very lightweight considering, you know, they have high availability mode, but it's just a few instances still. >>So from, even from a, you know, binary perspective and running link D how much overhead is it? >>That is a great question. So I don't remember off the top of my head, the numbers, but it's very lightweight. We, we evaluated a few different service missions and it was the lightest weight that we encountered at that point. >>And then from a resource perspective, is it a team of link D people? Is it a couple of people, like how >>To be completely honest for a long time, it was one person, Abraham who actually is the person who proposed this talk. He couldn't make it to Valencia, but he essentially did probably 95% of the work to get a into production. And then this was before we even had a team dedicated to our infrastructure. And so we have, now we have a team dedicated, we're all kind of Linky folks, if not Linky experts, we at least can troubleshoot basically. And things like that. So it's, I think a group of six people on our team, and then, you know, various people who've had experience with it >>On other teams, but I'm not dedicated just to that. >>I mean, >>No one is dedicated just to it. No, it's pretty like pretty light touch once it's, once it's up and running, it took a very long time for us to really understand it and, and to, you know, get like, not getting started, but like getting to where we really felt comfortable letting it go in production. But once it was there, like, it is very, very light touch. >>Well, I really appreciate you stopping by Chris. It's been an amazing conversation to hear how Microsoft is using a open source project. Exactly. At scale. It's just a few years ago, when you would've heard the concept of Microsoft and open source together and like, oh, that's just, you know, but >>They have changed a lot in the last few years now, there are huge contributors. And, you know, if you go to Azure, it's full of open source stuff, every >>So, yeah. Wow. The Cuban 2022, how the world has changed in so many ways from Licia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with a Rico senior, you're watching the, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe 22, brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to vincia Spain in Coon cloud native con Europe, 2022. I'm Keith towns alongside en Rico senior. Etti senior it analyst for giong welcome back to the show en >>Rico. Thank you again for having me here. >>First impressions of QAN. >>Well, great show. As, as I mentioned before, I think that we are really in this very positive mode of talking with each other and people wanting to see, you know, the projects, people that build the projects at it's amazing. I mean, a lot of interesting conversation in the show floor and in the various sessions, very positive move. >>So this is gonna be a fun one. We have some amazing builders on the show this week, and none other than William Morgan, CEO of buoyant. What's your role in the link D project? >>So I was one of the original creators of link D but at this point I'm just the, the beautiful face of the project. >>Speaking of beautiful face of the project, linker D just graduated from as a CNCF project. >>Yeah, that's right. So last year we, we became the first service mesh to graduate in the CNCF. Very proud of that. And that's thanks, you know, largely to the incredible community around Linky that is just excited about the project and, you know, wants to talk about it and wants to be involved. >>So let's talk about the significance of that link D not the only service mesh project out there. Talk to me about the level effort to get it to the point that it's graduated. That's you don't see too many projects graduating CNCF in general. So let's talk about kind of the work needed to get Nier D to this point. >>Yeah. So, you know, the, the, the bar is high and it's mostly a measure, not necessarily of like the, the project being technically good or bad or anything, but it's really a measure of maturity of the community around it. So is it being adopted by organizations that are really relying on it in a critical way? Is it, you know, being adopted across industries, you know, is it having kind of a significant impact on the cloud native community? And so for us, you know, there was the, the work involved in that was really not any different from the work involved in, in kind of maintaining ity and growing the community in the first place, which is you try and make it really useful. You try and make it really easy to get started with you, try and be supportive and to, you know, have a, a friendly and welcoming community. And if you do those things and, you know, you kind of naturally get yourself to the point where it's a, it's a really strong community full of people who are excited about it. >>So from the of view of, you know, users adopting the, this technology, so we are talking about everybody, or do you see really, you know, large organization, large Kubernetes yeah. Clusters infrastructure adopting it. >>Yeah. So that's the answer to that is changed a little bit over time. But at this point we see Linky adoption across industries, across verticals, and we see it from very small companies to very large ones. So, you know, one of the talks I'm really excited about at this conference is from the folks at Xbox cloud gaming, who talked about, who are gonna talk about how they deployed Linky across, you know, 22,000 pods around the world to serve, you know, basically on demand video games, never a use case I would ever have imagined for Linky. And at the previous Kuan, you know, virtually Kuan EU, we had a whole keynote about how Linky was used to combat COVID 19. So all sorts of uses. And it really doesn't, you know, whether, whether it's a small cluster or large cluster it's equally applicable. >>Wow. So as we talk about link D service match, we obviously are gonna talk about security application control, etcetera. But in this climate Software supply chain is critical, right. And as we think about open source software supply chain, talk to us about the recent security audit of link dealer. >>Yeah. So one of the things that we do as part of a CNCF project, and also as part of, I, I think our relationship with our community is we have regular security audits, you know, where we, we engage security professionals who are very thorough and, you know, dig into all the details. Of course the source code is all out there, you know, so anyone can read through the code, but they'll build threat model analyses and things like that. And then we take their, their report and we publish it. We say, Hey, look, here's, you know, here's the situation. So we have earlier reports online, and this newest one was done by a company called trail of bits. And they built a whole threat model and looked through all the different ways that Linky could go wrong. And they always find issues. Of course, you know, it's, it would be very scary, I think, to get a report that was like, no, we didn't find yeah. Earth clean, you know? Yeah. Everything's fine. You know, should be okay. I don't know. Right. But they, you know, they did not find anything critical. They found some issues that we rapidly addressed and then, you know, everything gets written up in the report and, and then we publish it, you know, as part of an open source artifact >>Are, you let's say, you know, do they give you and add something? So if something happens so that you can act on the code before, you know, somebody else discovers the >>Yeah, yeah. They'll give you a preview of what they found. And then often, you know, it's not like you're going before the judge and the judge makes a judgment and then like off the jail, right. It's, it's a dialogue because they don't necessarily understand the project. Well, they definitely don't understand it as well as you do. So you are helping them, you know, understand which parts and, and your, you know, are, are interesting to look at from the security perspective, which parts are not that interesting. They do their own investigation of course, but it's a dialogue the entire time. So you do have an opportunity to say, oh, you told me that was a, a, a minor issue. I actually think that's larger or, or vice versa. You know, you, you think that's a big problem. Actually, we thought about that, and it's not a big problem because of whatever. So it's a collaborative process. >>So link D been around, like, when I first learned about service me link D was the project that I learned about. Yeah. It's been there for a long time, but just mentioned 22,000 clusters. That's just mind boggling pod, 22,000 pods, the pods. Okay. >>Clusters would be >>Great. Yeah. Yeah. Clusters would be great too, but filled 22 thousands pods, big deployment. That's the big deployment of link D but all the way down to the small, smallest set of pods as well. What are some of the recent project updates from of the learnings you bought back from the community and updated the, the project as a result? >>Yeah. So a big one for us, you know, on the topic of security link, a big driver of link adoption is security and, and less on the supply chain side and more on the traffic, like live traffic security. So things like mutual TLS. So you can encrypt the communication between pods and make sure it's authenticated. One of the recent feature additions is authorization policy. So you can lock down connections between services and you can say service a is only allowed to talk to service B. And I wanna do that. Not based on network identity, you know, and not based on like IP addresses, cuz those are spoof. And you know, we've kind of like as an industry moved, moved, we've gotten a little more advanced from that, but actually based on the workload identity, you know, as captured by the mutual TLS certificate exchange. So we give you the ability now to, to, to restrict the types of communication that are allowed to happen on your cluster. >>So, okay. This is what happened. What about the future? Can you give us, you know, into suggestion of what is going to happen in the medium and long term? >>I think we're done, you know, we graduated, so we're just gonna >>Stop there's >>What else is there to do? There's no grad school, you know? No, no. So for us, there's a clear roadmap ahead, continuing down the, the security realm, for sure. We've given you kind of the very first building block, which at the service level, but coming up in, in the two point 12 release, we'll have route based policy as well, as you can say, this service is only allowed to call these three, you know, routes on this end point and we'll be working later to do things like mesh expansion so we can run the data plane outside of Kubernetes. You know, so the control plane will stay in in Kubernetes, but the data plane will, you'll be able to run that on VMs and, and, and things like that. And then of course in the, you know, we're also starting to look at things like I like to make a fun of WAM a lot, but we are actually starting to look at WAM in, in the ways that that might actually be useful for Linky users. >>So we talk a lot about the flexibility of a project, like link D you can do amazing things with it from a security perspective, but we're talking still to a DevOps type cloud of, of, of developers who are spread thin across their skillset. How do you help balance the need for the flexibility, which usually becomes more nerd knobs and servicing a crowd that wants even higher levels of abstraction and simplicity. >>Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. And this is, this is what makes Linky so unique in the service mesh spaces. We have a laser focus on simplicity and especially on operational simplicity. So our audience, you know, we can make it easy to install Linky, but what we really care about is when you're running it and you're on call for it and it's sitting in this critical, vulnerable part of your infrastructure, do you feel confident in that? Do you feel like you understand it? Do you feel like you can observe it? Do you feel like you can predict what it's gonna do? And so every aspect of Linky is designed to be as operationally simple as possible. So when we deliver features, you know, that's always our, our primary consideration is, you know, we have to reject the urge. You know, we have an urge as, as engineers to like want to build everything, you know, it's an ultimate platform to solve all problems and we have to really be disciplined and say, we're not gonna do that. >>We're gonna look at solving the minimum possible problem with a minimum set of features because we need to keep things simple. And, and then we need to look at the human aspect to that. And I think that's been a part of, of Link's success. And then on the buoyant side, of course, you know, I don't just work on link day. I also work on, on buoyant, which helps organizations adopt Linky and, and increasingly large organizations that are not service mesh experts don't wanna be service mesh experts that, you know, they wanna spend their time and energy developing their business, right. And, and building the business logic that powers their company. So for them, we have actually re recently introduced, fully managed. Linky where we can take on, even though Linky has to run on your cluster, right? The, the, the, the sidecar proxies has to be alongside your application. We can actually take on the operational burden of, of upgrades and trust, anchor rotation, and installation. And you can effectively treat it as a utility, right. And, and, and have a, a hosted, like, experience, even though the, the actual bits, at least most of them, not all of them, most of 'em have to live on your cluster. >>I love the focus of most CNCF projects, you know, it's, it's peanut butter or jelly, not peanut butter. Yeah. Trying to be become jelly. Right. What's the, what's the, what's the peanut butter to link D's jelly. Like where does link D stop and some of the things that customers should really consider yeah. When looking at service mesh. >>Yeah. No, that's a great way of looking at it. And I, I actually think that that philosophy comes from Kubernetes. I think Kubernetes itself, one of the reasons it was so successful is because it had some clearly delineated, it said, this is what we're gonna do. Right. And this is what we're not gonna do. So we're gonna do layer three, four networking. Right. But we're gonna stop there. We're not gonna do anything with layer seven. And that allowed the service mesh. So I guess if I were to go down the, the bread, the bread of the sandwich has Kubernetes, and then Linky is the, is the peanut butter, I guess, and then the jelly, you know, so I think the jelly is every other aspect of, of building a platform. Right. So if you are the, the audience for Linky, most of the time, it's a platform owners, right. They're building a platform, an internal platform for their developers to write code. And so, as part of that, of course, you've got Kubernetes, you've got Linky, but you've also got a C I CD system. You've also got a, you know, a code repository, if it's GitLab or, or GitHub or wherever you've got, you know, other kind of tools that are enforcing various other constraints. All of that is the jelly, you know, in the, this is, analogy's getting complicated now. And like the, the platform sandwich that, you know, that you're serving. >>So talk to us about trans and service mesh from the, from the, as we think of the macro. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's been an interesting space because we were talking a little bit about, you know, about this before the show, but the, there was so much buzz, you know, and then what we, what we saw was basically it took two years for that buzz to become actual adoption, you know, and now a lot of the buzz is off on other exciting things. And the people who remain in the Linky space are, are very focused on, oh, I actually have a, a real problem that I need to solve and I need to solve it now. So that's been great. So in terms of broader trends, you know, I think one thing we've seen for sure is the service mesh space is kind of notorious for complexity, you know, and a lot of what we've been doing on the Linky side has been trying to, to reverse that, that, that idea, you know, because it doesn't actually have to be complex. There's interesting stuff you can do, especially when you get into the way we handle the sidecar model. It's actually really, it's a wonderful model operationally. It's really, it feels weird at first. And then you're like, oh, actually this makes my operations a lot easier. So a lot of the trends that I see at least for Linky is doubling down on the sidecar model, trying to make side cards as small and as thin as possible and try and make them, you know, kind of transparent to the rest of the application. So >>Well, William Morgan, one of the coolest Twitter handles I've seen at WM on Twitter, that's actually a really cool Twitter handle. Thank you, CEO of buoyant. Thank you for joining the cube again. Cube alum from Valencia Spain. I'm Keith towns, along with en Rico, and you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Hello, and welcome to the cube special presentation of unstoppable domains partner showcase. I'm John furrier, your host of the cube. We got a great conversation talking about the future of the infrastructure of web three, all around domains, non fungible tokens, and more two great guests. Charlie Brooks, with business development of ensemble domains, and Michael Williams, product leader and advisor with unstoppable doing gentlemen, thanks for coming on the cube partner showcase with unstoppable domains. >>Thanks John. Excited to be here. So >>I love what you guys are doing. Congratulations on all your success. You guys are on the leading edge of what is a major infrastructure shift. Web three is being called, but people who have been doing this for a while, know that you see the blockchain, you see decentralization, you see immutability, all these future smart contracts. All the decentralized applications are now hitting the scene and NFTs are super hot as, as, as you can imagine, you guys are in the middle of it. So you guys are in, in, in the sweet spot of what I call the pragmatic pioneers. You guys are to building solutions that are making a difference like single sign-on. You have the login product, let's get into it. What is the path to I digital identity beyond the web, because we know what web identity is, but now that the web is kind of being abstracted away by this new web three layer, what is digital identity? >>Yeah, I can take that one. So I think what we're really seeing is this transition away from a purely physical identity where your digital life or where your, your online identity is really just a reflection of the, the parts of your physical identity, where you live, where you go to school, all of these things. And we're really seeing this world emerge where your online identity becomes much more of a primary. So if you have a way that you represent yourself in the online world, whether that's an Instagram account or TechTalk or email address or username, all of these things together make up your digital identity. So congrats. If you have any of those things, you already have one. >>Yeah. And we see that all the time with link tree people put their link tree out there and it's got the zillion handles. You're right. We all get up to Instagram and everyone's got like zillion identities. Is that a problem or an opportunity? >>I think it's just a reality. The fact that as our identities are spread across all of these different services and platforms that we use, the problem with something like link tree is that it is owned by link tree. You know, if I won the lottery purchased link tree and decided I wanted to change your personal website, John, I could easily do that. Moving to the kind of architecture that we have. And then if T architecture changes that significantly, it puts a lot of power back in the hands of the people who actually own those identities. >>You know, I do a lot of cube showcases with folks rent on my machine, learning and AI, and the number one conversation that they bring up. The number one issue is data. And they say when data is siloed and, and protected and owned, it is not optimized for machine learning. So I can almost imagine, as you bring NFTs to the digital identity, you mentioned you don't own your identity. If someone else is managing the service like link tree, this is, this is a cultural shift. This is an infrastructure software shift at the same time. Can you guys expand more about what you guys are doing with the NFT and ensemble domains with respect to that digital identity, because is that power shifting to the users now? And how does that compare to what's out there today? >>Sure. I think so. Our domains are NFTs, so they are ERC 7 21 tokens. And if you think about the past kind of web two identities are controlled by the platforms that we use, Twitter, Facebook, whatnot. There's a really a lack of data portability there. Our accounts and data live on their servers. They can be deleted at any time. So using an NFT to anchor your digital identity really gives you full control over your identity. You can't, it can't be deleted. It can't be revoked or edited or changed without your permission. And really, even better than information you store on your entity domain can be plugged into the services you use so that you never have to enter the same data twice. So when you go from platform to platform, everything can be tied to your existing domain. You're not going to a new site, kind of entering their ecosystem and providing all this information time and time again, and not really having a clear understanding of how your data is being used and where it's being stored. >>So the innovation here is the NFT is your identity and, and a non fungible token NFT is different than say a fungible tokens. So for the folks out there, that's trying to follow the bouncing ball. Michael, what's the difference between an NFT and a fungible token. And how does, and why is that important for identity? >>Yeah. My favorite metaphor here is baseball cards versus like dollar bills. So a dollar bill is fungible. If I have a dollar and then you have a dollar, we can trade dollars. And none of us is richer or poorer. If I have a babe Ruth and you have a Hank Aaron, and we swap baseball cards, like we have, we have changed something fundamental. So the, the important thing about NFT is, is that they are non fungible. So if I have a domain and you have a domain, like I have that identity and you have that identity, they are unique. They're independent, they're owned by each one of us. And then we can kind of swap them interchangeably. >>And that's why you're seeing NFTs hot with art and artists, because it's like a property, it's a property issue, not so much absolutely changeable, a divisible kind of asset. >>It is a, it is ownership rights in digital >>Form. Yes. All right. So now let's get into what the, the identity piece. I think I find that interesting because if I have something that's an NFT, it's not fungible. It's unique to me. It's property, my property, my login, this sounds compelling. So how does log-in work with the NFT? Can you guys take us through that, that architecture, what does it do? How does it work? And what's the benefit? >>So the way our login product works is it effectively uses your NFT domain. So Michael dot crypto, for example, as the authentication piece of a, of a login session. So basically when I, when I go and I try to log in with my domain, I type in Michael dot crypto. I sign it with my wallet, which cryptographically proves that I am this human. This is me. I have the rights to log in. And then when I do so I have the ability to share certain parts of my identity information with the applications that I use. And so it really blends the best of the ease of use from web to have just a standard like login with Gmail SSL experience, with all of the security and privacy benefits of web three. >>How important is single sign-on because, I mean, right now people are used to like, seeing things like log with your kid hub handle or LinkedIn, or, you know, Google, apple. I mean, you're seeing people offering login. Okay. What's the difference here from those solutions and why is it make sense for the user? >>Sure. Yeah. The big differences, what we're building is really user first. So if you think about traditional SSOs, you are the product. When you use their product, they're selling your data and, you know, they're tracking everything you do logging in with unstoppable handles, not only authentication, but data sharing as well. So when you log in a domain or owner can choose to share aspects of their online identity, such as first name, preferred language profile, picture location. So this is a user controlled way of using a sign-on, where they are permissioning, these different pieces of their identity. And really apps can use this information to enable new experiences, such as for example, website might automatically enable high contrast mode for someone visually impaired. It could, pre-populate your friends from a decentralized social graph. So what we're doing is taking the best parts of web to SSL and combining them with the best parts of web three. >>So no more losing your password entering in the same data, hundreds of times, you know, depending on other services, keep your information safe. Logging with unstoppable really puts you in complete control of your data. And, you know, a big part of that is you're not going to have 80 plus usernames and passwords anymore. You know, we have these tools like password managers that exist to kind of put a bandaid on this issue, but it's not really a long-term solution. So we're, we're building is really seamless onboarding where everything can be tied to your domain so that you can navigate to different apps in a much more seamless way. >>Michael, I got to get your thoughts on this because on the product side, it's interesting. My mind's kind of connecting some dots if I have, first of all, great convenience to reduce all those logins, right? So, you know, check their little pain, pain reduction. But when you think about what's different, I can now broker my data as well as log in. So let's just say, hypothetically, I'm cruising around some D apps and, you know, doing things and earning reputation or attention or points or whatever, tokens utility tokens. There could be a way for me to control what I own. I'm the product I own the data. Is that kind of where this is going? >>I think it's definitely a direction. It could go say, for example, if I'm a e-commerce platform and I'm trying to figure out where I'm going to place a new billboard, you know, one of the things that I could request from a user is their address. I can figure out where they live, what city they're in that will help inform the, the decision that I need to make as a business. And in return, maybe I give that person a dollar off their purchase, right? Like we can, we can start to build a stronger relationship between the applications that people use and the people that use them and try to optimize that whole experience and try to just transfer information back and forth to make everyone's lives better. >>What's the roadmap on the business side, Charlie, when you see companies kind of adopting it, they're probably taking baby steps or crawling before they walk they're walking before they run. I mean, I can see decentralized applications in the future, whether it's FinTech or whatever, having new kinds of marketplaces that take advantage of the paradigm where the, the script flips to the user first. Okay. So I see that. How do people get started now? What are some of the success momentum points that you're seeing companies do now with unstoppable? >>Sure. So a lot of web three apps are very sensitive about respecting the, the information that their users are providing, right? So what we're doing is I'm offering different ways for apps can touch with their users in a way that is user controlled. So an example there is that a lot of web three companies will use wallet connect to allow users to log in using a wallet address, an issue. There is that one person can have hundreds of wallet addresses, and it's impossible for the app to understand that. So what we do is we use login, we attach an email address, some other pieces to a wallet address so that we can identify who a unique user is. And the app is able to collect that information. They don't have to deal with passwords or PII storage. They have access to a huge amount of new data for an improved UX. >>It's really simple to implement and maintain as well. So one example there is if you are a DFI platform and you want to reward your users for coming to their site for the first time, now that they can identify unique user, they can drop a token into that user's wallet all because they're able to identify that user as unique. So they have a better way of understanding their customers. They enable their customers to share data. A lot of these companies well ask users to follow them on Twitter or discord when they need to provide updates or, you know, bug bounties, all these different things and log in with unstoppable, lets them permission, email addresses so they can collect emails if they want to do a newsletter. And instead of sort of harvesting data from elsewhere and kind of forcing people to join this newsletter program, it's all user controlled. So each user saying, yes, you can use my email for your newsletter. You know, I'm supporting your project, want to be kept up to date with bugs or bounties or rewards programs. So really it's just kind of a, a better way for users to, to share the data that they're willing to with dApps and dabs can use it to create all sorts of incentives and really just kind of understand their users on a, on a different level. >>How has the development Michael going on the, on the smart contract side of the business, you know, theories has always been heralded as being very developer focused. There's been great innovations. Just, you still got, you know, gas fees out there. You still gotta do some things. How is the development environment, how are the applications coming? Cause I can see the really, I can see the flywheel kicking in as a developer, Frank gets more streamlined, more efficient, and now you've got the identity piece nailed down. I just see a lot of kind of dominoes falling at the same time. What's the status on the dev side? >>What's your tour? The fascinating thing about crypto is how quickly it changes. You know, when I, when I joined Ethereum was pretty reasonable still for transactions. It was very cheap to get things done very fast. We've looked at last summer that things went completely out of control. This is a big reason that unstoppable for a long time has been working on a layer two and we've moved over to the Pollyanna, our primary source of record, which is built on top of it. The area of course, I think saved well over a hundred million dollars in Gaspe is for our users that we're constantly keeping an eye on new technologies that are emerging, weighing how we can incorporate those things and really where this industry is going to take us. You know, in many ways we are, are just as much passengers as the other people floating around the ecosystem as well. >>Yeah, it's, it's certainly getting faster every day and seeing a huge uptake on a theorem. I heard a stat that most people at the university of California, Berkeley, 30% of the computer science students are dropping out to join web three companies just goes to show you this cultural shift and you can see a lot more companies getting involved. So I got to ask you Charlie, on the biz dev front, how are companies getting started? What's the playbook? Are they putting their toe in the water? Are they jumping in full throttle? What's, what's the, what's the roadmap. What's the best practice for people to get started with unstoppable? >>Absolutely. You know, we're lucky that we get a lot of inbound interest from companies web two and web three because they first want to secure their domains. And we do a ton of work on the backend to protect trademark domains. We want to avoid squatting as much as possible. You know, we don't think that's the spirit of, of weaponry at all. And certainly not what the original intention of the internet was. So fair amount of companies will reach out to, out to us to get their domain. And then we can have a longer conversation about some of the other integrations and ways we can collaborate. So certainly visiting our website and several domains.com is a great starting point. We have an app submission page where asking, reach out to us, even request a grant. We have a grant prop, a program to help developers get started, provide them some resources to, to work with us and integrate some of our technology. >>We have great documentation as well on the site. So you can read all about what it takes to resolve domains, if you're a water and an exchange, as well as what it takes to integrate login within softball, which is actually a super easy integration as well, which we're, we're really excited about. So yeah, I'd say check out the website apply for our grant. If you think you're a fit there, then of course, people can always reach out to me directly on Twitter, on telegram email. We're very reachable and, and we're always happy to chat with projects and, and learn more about what they're doing. >>What's the coolest thing you've seen going on trial with your partners right now. What's, what's the, what's the number one use case that's cool that people are jumping on right now to get in and get some, some, you know, some success out of the gate. >>Yeah. Maybe, maybe gamefied kind of played, earns huge. It's blowing up. And the gaming community is really passionate, vibrant, just expanding like crazy same with there's all this cool new stuff you can do with defy where no matter, you know, how many, how, how big your kind of portfolio is, you're you're able to stake and use all these interesting tools to kind of grow your book. So it's super exciting to see and talk to all these projects and, you know, there's certainly kind of an energy in the community where everyone wants to onboard the general public to web three, right? So we're all working on these school projects, but we need everyone to come over from web to kind of understand the advantages of defy of game fi of having an empty domain. So I'm lucky that I'm kind of one of the first layers there of, of meeting new projects and kind of helping them get access to more users so that they can grow along with. >>Yeah. I remember the early days of Bitcoin and Ethereum, we were giving it away to give the, the community manager was give a, give a Bitcoin to someone that was when it was, you can actually give a Bitcoin to someone what's the, what's the word of mouth or organic viral. I won't say growth hack because that's got negative connotations, but what's the community's way of putting forth the mission for unstoppable. Is it just more domains you guys have any programs got going on? Is it give it away? I'll see you, you can get domains on your site, but what's the, what's the way to get people in gray shaded in and getting comfortable. >>Yeah. So much of what we do is really just all of that, to all that question, to answer that question, we spent a ton of time and energy just on education and whether that's specifically around domains or just general led three, we have a podcast which is pretty exceptional, which talks to what three leaders from across the space and makes the projects that they're working on more accessible. I think we passed over a hundred episodes, not too long ago. There's a ton of stuff that we do that other people do. If anyone has questions, I'm happy to talk about resources. >>Yeah. The part I think you guys are up to one 17, but that's a deep dive that you guys go deep on the podcast. So that's, you know, where you go in, what else is new on digital identity? Where do you guys see the future going now that you get the baseline identity with the NFT? It makes a lot of sense. Create innovation. Good logic makes sense. Solid. Technically what's next. >>Yeah. I think that's really boils down to the way that the internet has grown. Doesn't really feel like the way that the internet should be like our data shouldn't live in these walled gardens controlled by these large companies. Like ultimately people should be responsible for their own identity it's they should have control over the things that they do online, the data that's shared or the benefit of that data. And so the world that we are working towards is very much that where we are giving people the ability to be paid for sharing their data with companies, we're giving applications, the ability to request information from the people that use those applications to improve their experience. We're really just trying to make connections across the ecosystem, through these products to enable a better experience for everyone. So whether that's the, the use cases that I mentioned already, or maybe viewing reviews on something like Yelp or Amazon that just confirmed that the person that you are looking at is actually a real person, not some bot that's been paid to to the loader review. Like the, the interesting thing about these products is they're so universally applicable, applicable. There are so many different games that we can try to plug them in. So have >>It's a great example. It's double-edged sword. You can have a, a metaverse image and have pre-programmed conversations with, with, you know, liquid audio and the video application, you know, or it's a real person. How do you know the difference? You, these are going to be questions, you know, around, around who solves that problem. Now this is time for bots and is it time not for bots? We all know what happens when you get into the, you know, the game of manipulation, but also it can be helpful. This is where you gotta be smart and identity is critical in this future. Charlie, what's your reaction to the future of digital identity? I mean so much to look at here on the trajectory. >>Yeah. You know, I think a big part of it is data portability, right? If you go to a site like Instagram, you're giving them all this content that's very personal to you and you can't just pack up and leave Instagram. So we want a future where most of these apps are just kind of a front end and you can navigate from one to the other and bring your data with you and not be beholden to the companies that operate centralized servers. So I think data portability is huge and it's going to open up a lot of doors. And, and just going back to that thought on kind of cleaning up web two for a better web three. When I think about the Amazons, the Alps, the Yelps of the world, they're all these bots are all these awful fake reviews. There's a lot of gamification happening that is really just creating a lot of noise. >>And I want to bring kind of transparency back to the internet, where when you see a review, you should know that that's a real human and blockchain technology is enabling us to do that. And certainly enough, two domains are going to play a huge part of that. So I think that having an experience where, you know, and trust the people that you're interacting with is going to be really powerful and just a better experience for everyone. And there's a lot of ramifications with that. You know, politically speaking, we've, we've all seen all the issues with kind of attacking communities and using bots and fake accounts to kind of hit people's pain points is it's kind of sad and, and certainly not something that we want to see continue happening. So whatever we can do to kind of give people their digital identity and help people understand that this is a real person on the other end, I think is huge for, for the future of the internet and really for society as well. >>That's a great call out there. Charlie cleaning up the mess of web 2.0 web two. Well, actually I was, it was 2.0 technically now web three is no nos 0.0 in it, but, but I saw on our listen to the podcast with Matt, this recent one, and he had a great metaphor that went back to when I was growing up in the internet, you got IP addresses, right? And the mess there was, it was, you couldn't find what you want to look and no one could remember what to type in. Cause you can type in IP addresses in the browser back then. And then DNS came out and then keywords that's web. Okay. Now that mess now is fraud. Misinformation, bot manipulation, deep fakes, many other kind of unwanted kind of time to innovate. And every year, every time you had these inflection points, there'd be an abstraction on top of it. So similar thing happening here is that you guys see it too. >>Yeah. I think we're going back to some of the foundational architecture of the internet DNS and really bringing that forward about 30, 40 years in terms of technology. So loading in some work cryptography and some other fancy things to help patch some of those issues from the previous versions of the web. >>Yeah. Awesome. Well guys, thanks so much for coming on and the spirit of our tick talk, you know, I'm only summarize this. Can you guys give us a quick tick tock moment, short comment on, you know, where this is all going, whereas log-in single sign on mean and what should people do to take steps to secure their digital identity? >>Sure. I'll jump in here. So it's time for people to secure their digital identity. That great first step has gone on several domains and getting an entity domain. You know, you can control your data. You can do a lot of cool different things with your domain, including posting your own website that you own forever. And no one can take it away from you. I would certainly recommend the people join. Our discord, telegram community is check out our podcasts. It's really great. Especially if you're new to crypto web three, you know, we do a great job of sort of explaining all the basic concepts and expanding on them. So yeah, I'd say, you know, the time is now, so to get your digital identity and start embracing web three, because it's really exploding right now. And there's just so many incredible advantages, especially for the user, >>Michael, what's your take? >>I mean, I put not, I've said it better myself. >>Like we always say, if you're not on the next wave, your driftwood, and this is a big wave it's happening. It's pretty clear guys. It's it's there, it's happening now. And again, very pragmatic implementations of solving problems. The sign-on the app integration. Congratulations. And we've got our cube domain too, by the way. So we're we're I think we're good. You know, so we've got to put it to you. It's appreciate it, Charlie, Michael, thanks for coming on and sharing the update. Okay. This is the cube with unstoppable domains partner showcase, shout for your hosts. Got a lot of other great interviews. Check them out. We're going to continue our coverage and continue on with this great showcase. Thanks for watching.

>>Hi, welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Lisa Martin and pleased to welcome back. One of our cube alumni, Christian rowdy, the VP of technology strategy at Citrix Christian. Welcome back to the program. >>Thank you, Lisa. And thanks for having me. Great to see you again, and we'll be virtually at this time. >>Great to see you too. It's been a couple of years and quite a few things have changed since we got to sit down at synergy a couple of years together together. Citrix has an exciting new announcement. Let's unpack that. Talk me to me about what you're announcing and what it's going to deliver. >>Sure. You know, as you said, actually, I can't believe it's been a couple of years since we last saw each other. And I think, you know, time's kind of just disappeared within the pandemic. So it actually, as a result of some of those things that we've seen, you know, people get so tired of being stuck in the same place and tired of being on this constant stream of video. And one of the things that we wanted to do was, was actually a vital Citrix launch part, which is kind of our new announcement series that will be delivered via LinkedIn live. But he's really intended to be kind of a short burst approach to providing updates to some of them really important things that we're working on at Citrix. So, uh, hopefully, uh, people would love to say a reason and get some rich information from them. >>And there's going to be a series of three launchpad programs. Now we've seen so much change since the rapid pivot to work from home. Now this worked from anywhere hybrid environment. We've seen the, the massive adoption of cloud and SAS. We've also seen the threat landscape, the attack surface, just expand and expand. Talk to me about why Citrix is doing the launch pad series and then we'll go through each of the three series. >>Yeah, absolutely. So maybe I think just to set a little bit of context, you know, we, we were working on some pretty interesting things, uh, pre pandemic, you know, uh, as a result of the, kind of the, the evolution of Citrix as an organization, but perhaps more importantly, the journey that our customers were on globally, you know, every customer that we had in, in any industry across the world, we're all at various stages of their own digital transformation. And I think what the pandemic has done apart from all the really bad things, actually, if you look at it as a, perhaps one gleaming bit of light in the whole thing was that we've given organizations, whether we realize it or not the opportunity to try this huge remote work experiment. And I think what it has done above anything else has shown that remote work actually works. >>And so as a result of that, what we've seen coming out of the pandemic is that organizations are really going to use that as a springboard. So implement some new strategies, new technologies, and really drive the next generation of that business. So with one eye on that, I think if you were to categorize the three big things that we're looking at from a Citrix perspective, it's really about how to help, we'll continue to help our customers with that accelerated it modernization to really help them understand what it takes to have secure, flexible work in this new post pandemic world. And then also to think about productivity, what does productivity mean in a world of ever more distributed teams? And so the events that we're talking about and specifically the cloud one, we'll focus on some of the new offerings from Citrix, some of the new technologies and talk about the trends that we've seen within our customers. >>So, you know, one of the big things that Citrix has always been very proud of is our market leading position in virtual application and virtual desktop delivery. And even that itself has now begun to emerge into what we call desktop as a service. And there's a ton of new innovations that we've been working on in that space as well. But also if you think about what's happening in cloud, as you talked about, you know, the evolution of applications being from traditional on premises, wills to SAS applications, what we're also seeing is things like the network services that use to support those applications when they looked slightly different, which from a deployment perspective, and now all moving to cloud services, the security that you alluded to in terms of how complicated that is, but how important it is for it, organizations, those services also moving to cloud as the applications begin to look very differently in the future. So extremely excited about the cloud launch. Patino, we're going to talk a lot about those things that we're doing both in the public cloud, in the hybrid cloud. And I think it will resonate well with customers around the world. >>I think it will as well. And you mentioned there are glimmers of hope that we've seen in the last 18 months. And one of the things that this has proved is that work from home can be productive, can be successful. Employees need to be empowered to be able to do that. Let's go ahead and talk through the first, um, program accelerating it monetization. This is Tuesday, September 28th. Let's talk about some of the, of the Citrix innovations that you're going to be announcing. >>Yeah, so I mean, as I mentioned know, we, we, we think about sort of ecstatic. I see modernization in various parts. You know, we tend to start with the classic infrastructure and we've seen over the years that lots of infrastructure, you know, he's leaving the building. And by that we mean the traditional realms of on-premise data centers or co-location facilities, this constant evolution and migration of those services, uh, to, to infrastructure as a service providers from the huge cloud companies that are out there. And we can continue to see that as a, as a huge trend. Of course. Um, one of the things that off the back of that of course is our move from the traditional world of virtual desktops, which was a very on-premise concept into desktop as a service. So really the key around desktop as a service, it's a simplification, some cost optimization and the things that it are looking at in terms of how they can really bring things to the party for their organizations going forward. >>And of course, as we move into that world of everything being delivered as a service know, things like network services, security services, they almost follow. So some of the things that you'll hear about that is really around our application, delivering security and also our move from VDI to DAS. And, you know, you'll hear a lot about what we're doing with the world's leading cloud providers to really add more Citrix value or build on what we've already done with them, but lots, lots more, uh, and really support the, the, the notion of the, every customer is on a journey to cloud one way or the other. And of course, districts will be ready to help at any stage of that journey. >>Every customer is on the journey to cloud. And we've seen that accelerate so much in the last 18 months. Talk to me a little bit about if we, if we think of desktop as a service, as an evolution of VDI, is that what you're saying? >>Yeah. You know, you think about sort of the traditional VDI scenario was that your virtual desktops, where we were using instead of physical desktops, you know, in inside the usual office location, but during the pandemic, you know, we saw so many customers rely on moving to VDI, to cloud, for reasons of scalability and reasons of security, but then also needing to still in many cases, provide access to those sort of traditional physical PCs. And of course, Citrix has had solutions for that for fundamentally many, many years. Um, but what we're also seeing is that organizations are striving for simplicity. You know, the kind of the value of the desktop is being able to deliver it on demand to the end user securely from wherever they are in the world on whatever device they're on. And as we see this sort of establishment of these new working norms, and I'm not a great fan of the phrase, the new normal, I think we have a new now and that now will evolve. You know, they almost daily as we come through the other side of the pandemic. So the real key drivers for us there obviously flexibility, reliability, security, and also cost optimization, which of course is the bread and butter of most conversations we have with CIO and CTO is around the world. >>That's critical. And I'm going to borrow that, um, the new, now, if you don't mind, I'll cite you credit. But I like that. I agree that I hope this is not the new normal, but one of the things that we've seen in the new now on the security front is we've seen this massive increase in ransomware. Everybody went to work from home almost overnight. Suddenly you have millions of devices, IOT devices connecting to corporate networks. Security became the acceleration of security, became a huge challenge for customers in any organization globally. Let's talk about now the second announcement. This is going to be Tuesday, October 5th, empowering a secure distributed workforce. >>Yeah. And I, and I think you you've hit the nail on the head there. I think the one thing that was perhaps completely staggering to everybody was the speed in which organizations were forced to lock their employees out of the physical office locations and by force. I mean, for all the right reasons that are around the health and wellbeing. I mean, if I think back to my earlier career, you know, before I joined Citrix, I was in a large organization and we would, you know, perform these fire drills every so often where we would go through our disaster recovery business continuity plans and really play scenarios out. Like the office in London was unavailable or the office in LA was unavailable, but never once do I remember is doing every office. And every location is offline from tomorrow. And there's no negotiability. If you have a device at home, please use it. >>You know, we can't provide laptops quick enough, especially with the global chip shortage now as well. So whatever device you have, we'll do our best to, to make that secure. And I think there was, uh, an expectation that the employees would sort of play nicely in that scenario. But of course, you know, if you have your home device, you probably don't update it as much as a work device. So it really does require a new set of thinking. And of course, Citrix has been at the forefront of the zero trust evolution. Now the technologies that we have in place do permit remote work and have them for many years. But I think what we're seeing now is a slightly different type of remote work, you know, with different types of, of applications and devices, as you said, different locations, you know, needing to knit all of that together in a sort of a more contextual way so that we can understand, you know, combinations of the end user, their location, the types of applications that they're using the state of their devices, and sort of bring it all that together to really understand, you know, just exactly how much security needs to be applied. >>I think the traditional challenges are still there, you know, too much security and end users will find a way around it because it's not a good user experience. And, you know, perhaps too much user experience without the security leaves, big holes and big problems for organizations. So, yeah, I think this balancing act is really key. And of course, uh, as we go through the launch funnel security, we'll talk about some of the great innovations and solutions that are coming from central. >>You're right with the fact that, uh, you know, this rapid pivot security, the changes, the things that people are saying, the workforce needs to be empowered. You know, we saw this sudden dependence on all these SAS applications to communicate and to collaborate. We also saw with that rapid PennDOT to work from home ransomware, I was doing some research recently, Christian, and that's it, it's up almost 11 X just in the first half of 2021 DDoSs is massively up. People are, are working from home in environments that are just suddenly a bit chaotic. And it's challenging from a security perspective when you have so many distractions to be able to make sure that you're following all the right steps as an employee, um, that you're not clicking on nefarious links and that you're really doing your own due diligence. So having that zero trust and help from folks like Citrix is really key to this new. Now, as you say, >>It is, you know, the unfortunate thing is that wildlife, uh, no end user, or certainly I would hope that no one user would willingly cause a problem from a security perspective. I think just by the very nature of the way that end users thing, can they interact with links in emails or the, uh, you know, interact with attachments in emails? Unfortunately, relying on the human is always going to be the weakest link in the chain. And I think that's why we have to have new approaches to how we address the use of behavior. You know, can we actually, uh, you know, guide people in different ways. There are plenty of technologies that are out there now. And then many, many from Citrix that actually allow us to what we've lovingly said is, is to save the users from themselves. You know, we can't simply rely on every user to be diligent for every single email or every single link that they see. So, you know, being able to actually understand, you know, where the threats are as it relates to the end user and the likely interaction they have, and then being able to combat those threats in the technology at a seamless way is really part of the excited evolution of, of what we're doing with Citrix. And again, lots of great things to come as we go through the security. >>And the third announcement is around worker boosting worker productivity. That's been a challenge that we've all faced in the last 18 months of having, like I said, a minute ago, you know, people that have suddenly kids learning from home spouses, working people competing for bandwidth. Talk to me about some of the things that Citrix is doing to help those workers be more engaged, be plugged in and really be able to get their jobs done from anywhere. >>Yeah, well, you know, I mean, I can give you the benefit of my experience, you know, being, uh, in a, in a home office for, for, for almost 20 months has been completely the antithesis of the opposite of the rest of my career. You know, I've, I've always been very mobile, um, you know, kind of picking up different devices and using them for different things, just purely from a, you know, the perspective of what's most convenient to me. And I think, you know, if you take that and extrapolate it to, to every employee and every organization around the world who has had to invite work into their home, you know, and another soundbite that I use quite often now is that, you know, for the last 20 months, we really haven't been working from home. We've been living at work, you know, and, and, and it's, it's a fact, you know, we've probably done more hours than ever before. >>We've run the risk of burnout more than ever before. And, you know, prior to the pandemic, I know, talked to you and I talked about this very thing, uh, at synergy, you know, w we talked about the notion of needing to focus on employee experience and employee productivity. You know, we saw plenty of examples in customers with huge initiatives around employee experience and employee productivity. You know, CIO is partnering with HR leads and really trying to figure out a map, the employee journey, you know, what is it that they do every day? You know, how can we make their life easier? And perhaps interestingly, how can we reduce some of the mundane overhead, you know, approvals or requests or things that we see in our everyday life, but actually give the employees more time to be valuable and, and do great cognitive work, which is of course, what, what humans do best. >>And so, you know, you remember, we talked about the micro apps back then. We, we we'd completed the acquisition of Sappho, uh, as you and I talked last time when we unveiled micro apps and micro workflows, as a way to really help end users interact within Citrix workspace. So the systems that they use every day, but provide a new way to do that. And just earlier this year, we completed the acquisition and integration of Reich, which was a fantastic addition to the Citrix portfolio. And so we've really begun to think about, you know, how can we actually help employees to do their best work? You know, w w what are the new capabilities that we need within Citrix workspace? What are the new capabilities that we need in Reich? How do we bring all that together with some of the other solutions that we have Citrix Podio is a really interesting suite of productivity applications that we have really aimed at that number one problem, which is how can I get people to be productive, to stay engaged, to lower the burnout and help them do their best work. And I'm really, really excited because there's some fantastic things. So we announced that the work version of the launch pod, which is on October 12th, >>All of those are so critical. You know, I I've always said employee productivity employee is directly related to the customer experience. I've used Wrike myself before, um, for different projects and being able to have productivity tools that allow the employee to engage, to be able to empower them to move projects forward, especially in a time that is still somewhat chaotic is, is critical as is to your point, ensuring that there are the proper tools to facilitate folks so that they get what they need when they need it to help reduce burnout. That's been a big challenge. You're right. That the living at work thing is real, it's persisting, and we're going to be in this hybrid environment for some TBD amount of time longer. So having the ability to be empowered and productive in a secure way, leveraging cloud capabilities is really key. And it's exciting to hear what Citrix launchpad is going to announce over those three days and deliver. >>Yeah. You know, I, I would just say, you know, in, in, in sort of summary where we're, we're really excited about the three areas now, and they really do sort of all come together in some of those challenges that we talked about, you know, specifically around how we can help organizations to address that accelerated it modernization to drive secure, flexible work in the new now, and also to really reach that goal of having extremely productive, distributed teams as we come out the other side of the pandemic. So, you know, lots going on a fantastic time to, to be here and to talk to you and to be at Citrix, of course, with so many, you know, huge customer issues that we, that we have to solve. And we're really excited for the challenge. >>Excellent. And we all are looking forward to that, the Citrix launchpad series, Christian, where can folks go to register for these different programs? >>Yeah, sure. So it's pretty simple. So if we just go to HTTP bit dot Lee, bit dot L Y forward slash Citrix launchpad, and we can sign up through that. >>Excellent. I've already signed up. I'm looking forward to these series, this series, to learn more about what you guys are doing and kind of dig in double click on some of the things that you spoke about Christian. Thank you for joining me today, talking about the launch pad series and letting folks know where they can go to register. >>Thank you. Great to be on the great to see you again. >>Likewise, for Christian Riley, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching a cube conversation.

(smooth music) >> Hi, welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. We've got James Wynia here with me, the Director of Product Management at Dell. We're going to be talking about modern data center networks. Jim, welcome to the program. >> Thank you, Lisa. Great to be here. >> So let's talk about this. We've had so many dynamics going on in the last 15, 16 months, I've lost count. A lot of dynamics in play that are contributing to IT complexity. There's new sources of data. We had this massive shift to work from home, work from anywhere, that's now kind of this hybrid environment. Talk to me about some of the core requirements of a modern network infrastructure that organizations need to deploy. >> Absolutely, and thanks for teeing that up. The modern networking requirements these days, so many people have moved home, and so as a result, then the infrastructure back on the farm, back in the data center have to be beefier. You have to have more capacity. You have to be able to handle more scaling operations. And so things like the ability to radically increase your backbone just by swapping in some different transceivers, possibly some different switches to support those faster transceivers, allow for us to multiply that bandwidth very quickly. So that's been a big result of what we have seen coming out of all this, the COVID madness. >> Yeah. (chuckles) Madness is a great description for it, and there's going to be that hybrid as we go forward. There's going to be that need to, for any industry, I imagine, to enable work from anywhere. But talk to me about where customers are from a speed perspective. 100 Gig, that's really mature at this point. Is that where most businesses are? And then what's the next step from there? >> Another great question. (chuckles) I mean, 100 Gig is pretty much the de facto standard at this point. It has really become very cost-competitive and very stable. I mean, we've really been shipping QSFP28 at the latest 100 Gig for five years, and it has become the de facto standard for many, many different scenarios. As we move forward, though of course, we just need to move more data is what it comes down to, and so the next logical jump from 100 is 400. And so 400 started rolling out about the time that COVID came on, a couple months before that. And so honestly, there was a slight kind of delay in the industry as COVID kind of made everybody take a step back and say, "Whoa, hold on." But now it's really come back in full force. >> So what does an organization, and we'll kind of just leave this as any industry, need to do to be able to prepare to go from 100 to 400, because as you mentioned, the data sources aren't diminishing. It's only going to continue to increase. >> Absolutely. And so one of the things is to make sure that the backbone infrastructure can handle 400 Gig. Ironically enough, the actual optical cable trunks, those are pretty much the same. And so if you were running single-mode fiber to go a long distance, you would use that same cable. So you don't have to rip out all your cable infrastructure. What you have to look at closely is when you plug that transceiver into a switch, what is it capable of running at? In olden days, that was probably 100 Gig. Now you have a 400 Gig, so you have to make sure that you have just the right hardware to go with that. And then as you go down the chain, down the stack, rather, from those, the switch from the cord, or the switch all the way to your server, on the servers we see a lot of interest in 100 Gig, even up to 200 Gig today. And so it's the same discussion. You're taking a close look at your NIC or your adapter. What is it rated at? Is it going to be able to handle a faster speed? >> So it's not a rip and replace. Can you give us an idea of the migration path that a customer would take, and how Dell would facilitate that? >> Absolutely. And so we have some great customers who have really stepped out in different ways. You have the Greenfield customers who, they're building out a whole additional data center, say. And so they would just, from the ground up, replace it with the latest and greatest equipment that's just already ready to go. Other customers that are just extending, maybe they're tapping a couple data centers together and replacing those 100 Gig links to aggregate them with 400 Gig links. And then they would maybe migrate, adding in an additional 400 Gig links down through the stack as it makes sense. So ethernet is ethernet, right? Whether you have 100 Gig on one link, 400 Gig on another link, it all plugs and plays nicely. And so you don't have to have this big step where you have to forklift everything out and then move all new equipment in. It's as it makes sense. >> As organizations have pivoted multiple times in the last 15, 16 months, as we've all seen, and there will continue to be that I mentioned, there's this sort of work from anywhere hybrid model, what are some of the benefits that a business could expect going from 100 Gig to 400 besides just quadrupling the speed? Talk to me about some of the business impact that can be made here. >> So business impact as is can be tremendous. Certainly, the capacity is the biggest one that jumps out at us here, as we can just combine, add on more services. Another area where we see this impact, and which, again, boils down to capacity, is IoT and edge. We have these new edge devices coming left and right. I mean, every time you turn around in the consumer world, there's some new thing that we never thought was possible, or we thought was 20 years down the road, and well, there it is. All of those cute little gadgets are just creating these streams of data, okay? So you just have so much more data that has to be processed. And so some of that gets processed at the edge, and that's kind of a cool new thing, but you still have more data that has to come back to the home base, either for storage, or for analytics, or for number-crunching, and so you have to be able to manage that. Bigger, fatter pipes going long distances, going short distances, going just in the same rank. >> Have you noticed, Jim, in the last year or so any industries in particular that are really prime candidates for this upgrade? As you mentioned, IoT, the explosion at the edge, sensors, sensors everywhere. Any industries that you saw that really are benefiting from doing this migration? >> Well, certainly the hyperscalers. The big companies that we all use social networking on. They're just moving around just piles of data, and everyone's working from home, and so they just have a little extra time to do the clicking and searching and stuff. And so that, and as well as entertainment. From home, people are just... They're just using up more bandwidth, and so the tier one, tier two providers certainly... We've seen just tremendous interest and growth as they have stepped out and adopted. >> Jim, can we do a double-click now on some deployment options and capabilities, maybe helping us understand it by industry segment? >> Yes, absolutely. And so some of the segments that we've been working closely with over the last 18 months here is like cloud service providers. Also large enterprise companies who have the large data centers. And then thirdly, federal is moving along very quickly. Federal's got all the security stuff that's been in the news of late. They have more calculation and just data transfer needs than ever, and so those are a couple of good ones. >> Got it, yeah. Ransomware is now, unfortunately, one of those common household words, as is pandemic and Pfizer, right? Talk to me about where automation comes into play as organizations look to migrate to become faster, to be able to manage more data coming in faster from more sources, where does automation factor in the mix? >> One of my favorite questions, actually, because in the networking industry, it has changed so much in the last five years. It used to be that when you were talking about large data centers, and just massive amounts of data, that the entire discussion revolved around these large modular chassis. And the reality is that nowadays, yeah, large modular chassis still exist, and they have a place, but they're not mandatory in all circumstances. And one of the big changes is that you can get building blocks that push out tremendous amounts of data within a single box. And you can use like a claw structure that allows you to do more data safer because you have higher availability than these really expensive modular chassis. And so when you come with kind of more switches, the reality is that now you have a bigger automation requirement. And so the tools to be able to automatically set that up, automatically maintain, and automatically monitor it, those are critical. And especially when we're talking about high capacity environments where you have millions of people watching the video being on the screen right now. It better be there no matter what blip happens on the backend. >> Yep. There's always that demanding consumer, (chuckles) no matter what you do. What about automating day one and day two operations? How does it play into managing this infrastructure, this modern data network infrastructure, with on-prem and in the cloud? >> Yes. So I work for Dell, and I forgot to mention upfront, I apologize, I'm a Dell employee, but I'm actually speaking from my opinion. I'm not representing Dell in terms of their viewpoint of all of these things we're talking about today. But one of the big things is that, as we have gone from those modular chassis to more individual units to get this cleaner deployment, the day one has to do with how do you design that. How do you, when you have more fiber cables connecting things up, how do you make sure that you don't oops, plug one into the wrong place? And so tools such as in Dell, we have tools like the Fabric Design Center that automatically generate all of those wiring diagrams for you, all of the testing. When you plug it in for the first time, it actually verifies that everything's clean. And then day two is monitoring what's happening. Are you getting issues, subtle issues that are maybe not noticed but are building up? And so things like the Smart Fabric Director can allow us to monitor those types of things and make recommendations for, "Hey, there's something happening we need to be aware of and watch it," or "Here's some corrective action." And so those kinds of tools really are the lifeblood to make sure that the team doesn't just get overwhelmed. And the reality is we all know as time goes on, we need, or we're given the opportunity to have fewer people working on maintaining stuff. And so you need more equipment that's more complex, but you have less number of eyes on what's going on, and so the tools just have to be locked in. >> So tools you mentioned. What about operating systems? Anything that you would recommend that customers looking into? >> That's another great question. So operating systems have changed. If you look back on the server world, you go back 20, 25 years ago, every server company, they made their own CPU, they made their own operating system, and then it evolved so that there was, now you buy a CPU from either maybe Intel, maybe AMD. But it's not like Dell goes out and makes its own CPU. We buy from other established leaders. When it comes to operating systems on the server side, the same thing happened. Well, the networking world has been catching up for quite a while, and so four years ago, we started talking about open networking, and the fact that there are options. You're not locked into just what is our primary operating system. And so there are opensource operating systems that you can run. There are things like SONiC, which has just really been taking the networking world by storm. And so we certainly support Dell Enterprise SONiC on our platforms. And that is another fantastic option. >> Excellent. Last question, Jim, for you. If you had a crystal ball, given the dynamics of the world today and how quickly things are changing, and how organizations need to be competitive, what are some of the things that you think we're going to see in the networking world in the next 12 to 18 months? >> Well, it doesn't take a whole lot of a crystal ball. We just follow the standards, bodies. We see that 400 Gig has really come on strong. And honestly, we played catch up in that industry, having all of the optics that we needed. We needed all the breakout optics to go from 400 to four by 100. Those took a good, well, six to eight months before those really came on board. And so now we're finally at the place where we're in a good place, but the next thing clearly is everything doubles. And so now we'll jump to 800 Gig over the same infrastructure, and so that's, again, everything doubles. And then there's a lot of talk about, "Well, what happens after that?" Well, then you go everything from 800 to 1.6T over that same infrastructure, and so it's just kind of mind-boggling capacity, but it's coming at us like a freight train. >> It is like a freight train. We'll say a good freight train. Jim, thank you so much for joining me on theCUBE today, talking to me about modern data center networks, what's going on there, the opportunities for businesses in any industry to take advantage of the latest and greatest. We appreciate your time. >> You bet. Thank you for inviting me. >> For Jim Wynia, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this CUBE Conversation. (smooth music)

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave a lot and you're watching the cube. We're here with Omar assad is the vice president, GM of H P S H C I and primary storage and data management business. And Sandeep Singh was the vice president of marketing for HP storage division. Welcome gents. Great to see you. >>Great to be here. Dave, >>it's a pleasure to be here today. >>Hey, so uh, last month you guys, you made a big announcement and and now you're, you know, shining the spotlight on that here at discover Cindy. Maybe you can give us a quick recap, what do we need to know? >>Yeah, Dave. We announced that we're expanding HB Green Lake by transforming HB storage to a cloud native software defined data services business. We unveiled a new vision for data that accelerates data dream of transformation for our customers. Uh and it introduced a and we introduced the data services platform that consists of two game changing innovations are first announcement was data services cloud console. It's a SAS based console that delivers the cut operational agility and it's designed to unify data operations through a suite of cloud data services. Our second announcement is H P E electra. It's cloud native data infrastructure to power your data edge to cloud. And it's managed natively with data services cloud console to bring that cloud operational model to our customers wherever their data lives. Together with the data services >>platform. >>Hp Green Green Lake brings that cloud experience to our customers data across edge and on premises environment and lays the foundation for our customers to shift from managing storage to managing data. >>Well, I think it lays the foundation for the next decade. You know, when we entered this past decade, we we we we keep we use terms like software led that that sort of morphed into. So the software defined data center containers with kubernetes, let's zoom out for a minute. If we can homer, maybe you could describe the problems that you're trying to address with this announcement. >>Thanks dave. It's always a pleasure talking to you on these topics. So in my role as general manager for primary storage, I speak with the hundreds of customers across the board and I consistently hear that data is at the heart of what our customers are doing and they're looking for a data driven transformative approach to their business. But as they engage on these things, there are two challenges that they consistently faced. The first one is that managing storage at scale Is rife with complexity. So while storage has gotten faster in the last 20 years, managing a single array or maybe two or three arrays has gotten simpler over time. But managing storage at scale when you deploy fleet, so storage as customers continue to gather, store and life cycle of that data. This process is extremely frustrating for customers. Still I. T. Administrators are firefighting, they're unable to innovate for their business because now data spans all the way from edge to corridor cloud. And then with the advent of public cloud there's another dimension of multi cloud that has been added to their data sprawl. And then secondly what what we what we consistently hear is that idea administrators need to shift from managing storage to managing data. What this basically means is that I. T. Has a desire to mobilize, protect and provision data seamlessly across its lifecycle and across the locations that it is stored at. This ensures that I. D. Leaders uh and also people within the organization understand the context of the data that they store and they operate upon. Yet data management is an extremely big challenge and it is a web of fragmented data silos across processes across infrastructure all the way from test and dev to administration uh to production uh to back up to lifecycle data advantage. Uh And so up till now data management was tied up with storage management and this needs to change for our customers especially with the diversity of the application workloads as they're growing and as customers are expanding their footprint across a multi cloud environment, >>just had to almost um response there. We recently conducted a survey that was actually done by E. S. She. Um and that was a survey of IT. decision makers. And it's interesting what it showcased, 93% of the respondents indicated that storage and data management complexity is impeding their digital transformation. 95% of the respondents indicated that solving storage and data management complexity is a top 10 business initiative for them And 94% want to bring the cloud experience on premises. >>You know, I'll chime in. I think as you guys move to the sort of software world and container world affinity to developers homer. You talked about, you know, things like data protection and we talk about security being bolted on all the time. Now. It's designed in it's it's done at sort of the point of creation, not as an afterthought and that's a big change that we see coming. Uh Let's talk about, you know what also needs to change as customers make the move from this idea of managing storage to to managing data or maybe you can take that one. >>That's a that's a very interesting problem. Right. What are the things that have to be true in order for us to move into this new data management model? So, dave one of the things that the public cloud got right is the cloud operational model which sets the standard for agility and a fast pace for our customers in a classic I. T. On prime model. If you ever wanted to stand up an application or if you were thinking about standing up a particular workload, uh you're going to file a series of I. T. Tickets uh And then you are at the mercy of whatever complex processes exist within organization and and depending on what the level of approvals are within a particular organization, standing up a workload can take days, weeks or even months in certain cases. So what cloud did was a rock that level of simplicity for someone that wanted to instead she ate an app. This means that the provision of underlying infrastructure that makes that workload possible needs to be reduced to minutes from days and weeks. But so what we are intending to do over here is to bring the best of both worlds together so that the cloud experience can be experienced everywhere with ease and simplicity and the customers don't need to change their operating model. So it's blending the two together. And that's what we are trying to usher in into this new era where we start to differentiate between data management and storage management as two independent. Yes, >>Great. Thank you for that. Omer. So deep. I wonder if you could share with the audience, you know, the vision that you guys unveiled, What does it look like? How are you making it actually substantive and and real? >>Yeah. David, That's also great question. Um across the board it's time to reimagine data management. Everything that homer shared. Those challenges are leading to customers needing to break down the silos and complexity that plagues these distributed data environments. And our vision is to deliver a new data experience that helps customers unleash the power of data. We call this vision unified data obs Unified Data Ops integrates data centric policies to streamline data management cloud native control to bring the cloud operational model to where customers data labs and a I driven insights to make the infrastructure invisible. It delivers a new data experience to simplify and bring that agility of cloud to data infrastructure. Streamline data management and help customers innovate faster than ever before. We're making the promise of unified Data Ops Real by transforming H P E storage to a cloud native software defined data services business and introducing a data services platform that expands Hve Green Lake. >>I mean, you know, you talk about the complexity, I see, I look at it as you kind of almost embracing the complexity saying, look, it's gonna keep getting more complex as the cloud expands to the edge on prem Cross cloud, it gets more complex underneath. What you're doing is you're almost embracing that complexity, putting a layer over it and hiding that complexity from from the end customer that and so they can spend their time doing other things over. I wonder if you can maybe talk a little bit more about the data services console, is it sort of another, you know, software layer to manage infrastructure? What exactly is it? >>It's a lot more than that dave and you're you're 100% right. It's basically we're attempting in this release to attack that complexity. Head on. So simply put data services. Cloud console is a SAS based console that delivers cloud operational model and cloud operational agility uh to our customers, it unifies data operations through a series of cloud data services that are delivered on top of this console to our customers in a continuous innovation stream. Uh And what we have done is going back to the point that I made earlier separating storage and data management and putting the strong suites of each of those together into the SAS delivered console for our customers. So what we have done is we have separated data and infrastructure management away from physical hardware to provide a comprehensive and a unified approach to managing data and infrastructure wherever it lives from a customer's perspective, it could be at the edge, it could be in a coal. Oh, it could be in their data center or it could be a bunch of data services that are deployed within the public cloud. So now our customers with data services, cloud console can manage the entire life cycle of their data from all the way from deployment, upgrading and optimizing it uh from a single console from anywhere in the world. Uh This console is designed to streamline data management with cloud data services that enable access to data, It allows for policy-based data protection, it allows for an organizational wide search on top of your storage assets. And we deliver basically a 360° visibility to all your data from a single console that the customer can experience from anywhere. So, so if you look at the journey, the way we're deciding to deliver this. So the first in its first incarnation, uh data services, cloud console gives you infrastructure and cloud data services to start to do data management along with that. But this is that foundation that we are placing in front of our customers, the SAS console through which we get touch our customers on a daily basis. And now as our customers get access to the SAAS platform on the back end, we will continue to roll in additional services throughout the years on a true SAS based innovation base for our customers. And and these services can will be will be ranging all the way from data protection to multiple out data management, all the way to visibility all the way to understanding the context of your data as it's stored across your enterprise. And in addition to that, we're offering a consistent, revised, unified API which allows for our customers to build automation against their storage infrastructure without ever worrying about that. As infrastructure changes. Uh the A P I proof points are going to break for them. That is never going to happen because they are going to be programming to a single SAS based aPI interface from now on. >>Right. And that brings in this idea of infrastructures coding because you talk about as a service to talk about Green Lake and and my question is always okay. Tell me what's behind that. And if and if and if and if you're talking about boxes and and widgets, that's a it's a problem. And you're not you're talking about services and A P. I. S and microservices and that's really the future model. And infrastructure is code and ultimately data as code is really part of that. So, All right. So you guys, I know some of your branding folks, you guys give deep thought uh, to this. So the second part of the announcement is the new product brands and deep maybe you can talk about that a little bit. >>Sure. Ultimately delivering the cloud operational model requires cognitive data infrastructure and that has been engineered to be natively managed from the cloud. And that's why we have also introduced H. P. E. Electra. Omar. Can you perhaps described HB electro even more? >>Absolutely. Thank you. Sandy. Uh, so with with HB Electoral we're launching a new brand of cloud native hardware infrastructure to power our customers data all the way from edge to the core to the cloud. The releases are smaller models for the edge then at the same time having models for the data center and then expanding those services into the public cloud as well. Right. All these hardware devices, Electoral hardware devices are cloud native. Empowered by our Data services. Cloud Council. We're announcing two models with this launch H. P. E. Electra 9000. Uh, this is for our mission critical workloads. It has its history and bases in H P E primera. It comes with 100% availability guarantee. Uh It's the first of its type in the industry. It comes with standard support contract, No special verb is required. And then we're also launching HB electoral 6000. Uh These are based in our history of uh nimble storage systems. Uh These these are for business critical applications, especially for that mid range of the storage market, optimizing price, performance and efficiency. Both of these systems are full envy, any storage powered by our timeless capabilities with data in place upgrades. And then they both deliver a unified infrastructure and data management experience through the data services, cloud console. Uh and and and at the back end, unified ai Ops experience with H P E info site is seamlessly blended in along with the offering for our customers. >>So this is what I was talking about before. It's sort of not your grandfather's storage business anymore. Is this is this is this is something that is part of that, that unified vision, that layer that I talked about. The AP is the program ability. So you're you're reaching into new territory here. Maybe you can give us an example of how the customers experience what that looks like. >>Excellent, loved her Dave. So essentially what we're doing is we're changing the storage experience to a true cloud operational model for our customers. These recent announcements that we just went through along with, indeed they expand the cloud experience that our customers get with storage as a service with HPD Green Lake. So a couple of examples to make this real. So the first of all is simplified deployment. Uh, so I t no longer has to go through complex startup and deployment processes. Now, all you need to do is these systems shipped and delivered to the customer's data center. Operational staff just need to rack and stack and then leave, connect the power cable, connect the network cable. And the job is done from that point onwards, data services console takes over where you can onboard these systems, you can provision these systems if you have a pre existing organization wide security as well as standard profile setup in data services console, we can automatically apply those on your behalf and bring these systems online. From a customer's perspective, they can be anywhere in the world to onboard these systems, they could be driving in a car, they could be sitting on a beach uh And and you know, these systems are automatically on boarded through this cloud operational model which is delivered through the SAAS application for our customers. Another big example. All that I'd like to shed light on is intent based provisioning. Uh So Dave typically provisioning a workload within a data center is an extremely spreadsheet driven trial and error kind of a task. Which system do I land it on? Uh Is my existing sl is going to be affected which systems that loaded, which systems are loaded enough that I put this additional workload on it and the performance doesn't take. All of these decisions are trial and error on a constant basis with cloud data services console along with the electron new systems that are constantly in a loop back information feeding uh Typical analytics to the console. All you need to do is to describe the type of the workload and the intent of the workload in terms of block size S. L. A. That you would like to experience at that point. Data services console consults with intra site at the back end. We run through thousands of data points that are constantly being given to us by your fleet and we come back with a few recommendations. You can accept the recommendation and at that time we go ahead and fully deploy this workload on your behalf or you can specify a particular system and then we will try to enforce the S. L. A. On that system. So it completely eliminates the guesswork and the planning that you have to do in this regard. Uh And last but not the least. Uh you know, one of the most important things is, you know, upgrades has been a huge problem for our customers. Uh And typically oftentimes when you're not in this constant, you know, loop back communication with your customers. It often is a big challenge to identify which release or which bug fix or which update goes on to which particular machine. All of that has been completely taken away from our customers and fully automated. Uh we run thousands of signatures across are installed base. We identify which upgrades need to be curated for which machines in a fleet for a particular customer. And then if it applies to that customer we presented, and if the customer accepts it, we automatically go ahead and upgrade the system and and and last, but not the least from a global management perspective. Now, a customer has an independent data view of their data estate, independent from a storage estate. And data services. Council can blend the two to give a consistent view or you can just look at the fleet view or the data view. >>It's kind of the Holy Grail. I mean I've been in this business a long time and I think I t. People have dreamt about you know this kind of capability for for a long long time. I wonder if we could sort of stay on the customers for a moment here and and talk about what's enabled. Now everybody's talking digital transformation that I joke about the joke. Not funny. The force marched to digital with Covid uh and we really wasn't planned for but the customers really want to drive now that digital transfer some of them are on the back burner and now they're moving to the front burner. What are the outcomes that are that are enabled here? Omar. >>Excellent. So so on on a typical basis for a traditional I. T. Customer, this cloud operational model means that you know information technology staff can move a lot faster and they can be a lot more productive on the things that are directly relevant to their business. They can get up to 99% of the savings back to spend more time on strategic projects or best of all spend time with their families rather than managing and upgrading infrastructure and fleets of infrastructure. Right. For line of business owners, the new experience means that their data infrastructure can be presented can be provision where the self service on demand type of capability. Uh They necessarily don't have to be in the data center to be able to make those decisions. Capacity management, performance management, all of that is died in and presented to them wherever they are easy to consume SAS based models and especially for data innovators, whether it's D B A s, uh whether it's data analysts, they can start to consume infrastructure and ultimately data as a code to speed up their app development because again, the context that we're bringing forward is the context of data decoupling it from. Actually, storage management, storage management and data management are now two separate domains that can be presented through a single console to tie the end to end picture for a customer. But at the end of the day, what we have felt is that customers really really want to rely and move forward with the data management and leave infrastructure management to machine oriented task, which we have completely automated on their behalf. >>So I'm sure you've heard you got the memo about, you know, H H P going all in on as a service. Uh it's clear that the companies all in. How does this announcement fit in to that overall mission, Sandeep >>Dave. We believe the future is edge to cloud and our mission is to be the edge to cloud platform as a service company and as as HB transforms HP Green Lake is our unified cloud platform. Hp Green Link is how we deliver cloud services and agile cloud experiences to customers, applications and data across the edge to cloud. With the storage announcement that we made recently, we announced that we're expanding HB Green Lake with as a service transformation of the HPV storage business to a cloud native software defined data services business. And this expands storage as a service delivering full cloud experience to our customers data across edge and on prem environment across the board were committed to being a strategic partner for every one of our customers and helping them accelerate their digital transformation. >>Yeah, that's where the puck is going guys. Hey as always great conversation with with our friends from HP storage. Thanks so much for the collaboration and congratulations on the announcements and I know you're not done yet. >>Thanks. Dave. Thanks. Dave. All right. Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. >>You're very welcome. And thank you for being with us for hp. You discovered 2021. You're watching the cube, the leader digital check coverage. Keep it right there, but right back. >>Mhm. Mhm.

>>Welcome back to HPD discovered 2021. The virtual edition. My name is Dave Volonte and you're watching the cube. We're here with Omar assad is the vice president GM of H P S H C I and primary storage and data management business. And Sandeep Singh was the vice president of marketing for HP storage division. Welcome gents. Great to see you. >>Great to be here. Dave, >>It's a pleasure to be here today. >>Hey, so uh, last month you guys, you made a big announcement and and now you're, you know, shining the spotlight on that here at discover Cindy. Maybe you can give us a quick recap, what do we need to know? >>Yeah, Dave. We announced that we're expanding HB Green Lake by transforming HB storage to a cloud native software defined data services business. We unveiled a new vision for data that accelerates data, dream of transformation for our customers. Uh and it introduced a and we introduced the data services platform that consists of two game changing innovations are first announcement was Data services cloud console. It's a SAS based console that delivers the cut operational agility and it's designed to unify data operations through a suite of cloud data services. Our 2nd announcement is HPE. Electra. It's cloud native data infrastructure to power your data edge to cloud. And it's managed natively with data services cloud console to bring that cloud operational model to our customers wherever their data lives together with the data services platform. Hp Green Green Lake brings that cloud experience to our customers data across edge and on premises environment and lays the foundation for our customers to shift from managing storage to managing data. >>Well, I think it lays the foundation for the next decade. You know, when we entered this past decade, we we were Ricky bobby's terms like software led that that sort of morphed into. So the software defined data center containers with kubernetes, Let's zoom out for a minute. If we can homer maybe you could describe the problems that you're trying to address with this announcement. >>Thanks dave. It's always a pleasure talking to you on these topics. So in my role as general manager for primary storage, I speak with the hundreds of customers across the board and I consistently hear that data is at the heart of what our customers are doing and they're looking for a data driven transformative approach to their business. But as they engage on these things, there are two challenges that they consistently faced. The first one is that managing storage at scale Is rife with complexity. So while storage has gotten faster in the last 20 years, managing a single array or maybe two or three arrays has gotten simpler over time. But managing storage at scale when you deploy fleet. So storage as customers continue to gather, store and lifecycle that data. This process is extremely frustrating for customers. Still I. T. Administrators are firefighting, they're unable to innovate for their business because now data spans all the way from edge to corridor cloud. And then with the advent of public cloud there's another dimension of multi cloud that has been added to their data sprawl. And then secondly what what we what we consistently hear is that idea administrators need to shift from managing storage to managing data. What this basically means is that I. D. Has a desire to mobilize, protect and provision data seamlessly across its lifecycle and across the locations that it is stored at. Uh This ensures that I. D. Leaders uh and also people within the organization understand the context of the data that they store and they operate upon. Yet data management is an extremely big challenge and it is a web of fragmented data silos across processes across infrastructure all the way from test and dev to administration uh to production uh to back up to lifecycle data management. Uh And so up till now data management was tied up with storage management and this needs to change for our customers especially with the diversity of the application workloads as they're growing and as customers are expanding their footprint across a multi cloud environment >>just to add to almost uh response there. We recently conducted a survey that was actually done by E. S. She. Um and that was a survey of IT. decision makers. And it's interesting what it showcased, 93% of the respondents indicated that storage and data management complexity is impeding their digital transformation. 95% of the respondents indicated that solving storage and data management complexity is a top 10 business initiative for them and 94% want to bring the cloud experience on premises, >>you know, al china. And I think as you guys move to the sort of software world and container world affinity to developers homer, you talked about, you know, things like data protection and we talk about security being bolted on all the time. Now. It's designed in it's it's done at sort of the point of creation, not as an afterthought. And that's a big change that we see coming. Uh But let's talk about, you know, what also needs to change as customers make the move from this idea of managing storage to to managing data or maybe you can take that one. >>That's a that's a that's a very interesting problem. Right. What are the things that have to be true in order for us to move into this new data management model? So, dave one of the things that the public cloud got right is the cloud operational model uh which sets the standard for agility and a fast pace for our customers in a classic I. T. On prime model, if you ever wanted to stand up an application or if you were thinking about standing up a particular workload, uh you're going to file a series of I. T. Tickets and then you're at the mercy of whatever complex processes exist within organization and and depending on what the level of approvals are within a particular organization, standing up a workload can take days, weeks or even months in certain cases. So what cloud did was they brought that level of simplicity for someone that wanted to instead she ate an app. This means that the provisioning of underlying infrastructure that makes that workload possible needs to be reduced to minutes from days and weeks. But so what we are intending to do over here is to bring the best of both worlds together so that the cloud experience can be experienced everywhere with ease and simplicity and the customers don't need to change their operating model. So it's blending the two together. And that's what we are trying to usher in into this new era where we start to differentiate between data management and storage management as two independent things. >>Great, thank you for that. Omer sometimes I wonder if you could share with the audience, you know, the vision that you guys unveiled, What does it look like? How are you making it actually substantive and and real? >>Yeah. Dave. That's also great question. Um across the board it's time to reimagine data management. Everything that homer shared. Those challenges are leading to customers needing to break down the silos and complexity that plagues these distributed data environments. And our vision is to deliver a new data experience that helps customers unleash the power of data. We call this vision unified data jobs, Unified Data Ops integrates data centric policies to streamline data management, cloud native control to bring the cloud operational model to where customers data labs and a I driven insights to make the infrastructure invisible. It delivers a new data experience to simplify and bring that agility of cloud to data infrastructure. Streamline data management and help customers innovate faster than ever before. We're making the promise of Unified Data Ops Real by transforming Hve storage to a cloud native software defined data services business and introducing a data services platform that expands Hve Green Lake. >>I mean, you know, you talk about the complexity, I see, I look at it as you kind of almost embracing the complexity saying, look, it's gonna keep getting more complex as the cloud expands to the edge on prem Cross cloud, it gets more complex underneath. What you're doing is you're almost embracing that complexity and putting a layer over it and hiding that complexity from from the end customer that and so they can spend their time doing other things over. I wonder if you can maybe talk a little bit more about the data services console, Is it sort of another software layer to manage infrastructure? What exactly is it? >>It's a lot more than that, Dave and you're you're 100% right. It's basically we're attempting in this release to attack that complexity head on. So simply put data services. Cloud console is a SAS based console that delivers cloud operational model and cloud operational agility uh to our customers. It unifies data operations through a series of cloud data services that are delivered on top of this console to our customers in a continuous innovation stream. Uh And what we have done is going back to the point that I made earlier separating storage and data management and putting the strong suites of each of those together into the SAS delivered console for our customers. So what we have done is we have separated data and infrastructure management away from physical hardware to provide a comprehensive and a unified approach to managing data and infrastructure wherever it lives. From a customer's perspective, it could be at the edge, it could be in a coal. Oh, it could be in their data center or it could be a bunch of data services that are deployed within the public cloud. So now our customers with data services. Cloud console can manage the entire life cycle of their data from all the way from deployment, upgrading and optimizing it uh from a single console from anywhere in the world. Uh This console is designed to streamline data management with cloud data services that enable access to data. It allows for policy-based data protection, it allows for an organizational wide search on top of your storage assets. And we deliver basically a 360° visibility to all your data from a single console that the customer can experience from anywhere. So, so if you look at the journey the way we're deciding to deliver this. So the first, in its first incarnation, uh Data services, Cloud console gives you infrastructure and cloud data services to start to do data management along with that. But this is that foundation that we are placing in front of our customers, the SAS console, through which we get touch our customers on a daily basis. And now as our customers get access to the SAAS platform on the back end, we will continue to roll in additional services throughout the years on a true SAS based innovation base for our customers. And and these services can will be will be ranging all the way from data protection to multiple out data management, all the way to visibility all the way to understanding the context of your data as it's stored across your enterprise. And in addition to that, we're offering a consistent revised unified Api which allows for our customers to build automation against their storage infrastructure. Without ever worrying about that. As infrastructure changes, uh, the A. P I proof points are going to break for them. That is never going to happen because they are going to be programming to a single SAS based aPI interface from now on. >>Right. And that brings in this idea of infrastructure as code because you talk about as a service to talk about Green Lake and and my question is always okay. Tell me what's behind that. And if and if and if and if you're talking about boxes and and widgets, that's a it's a problem. And you're not, you're talking about services and A P. I. S and microservices and that's really the future model and infrastructure is code and ultimately data as code is really part of that. So, All right. So you guys, I know some of your branding folks, you guys give deep thought to this. So the second part of the announcement is the new product brands and deep maybe you can talk about that a little bit. >>Sure. Ultimately delivering the cloud operational model requires cognitive data infrastructure and that has been engineered to be natively managed from the cloud. And that's why we have also introduced H. P. E. Electra. Omar, Can you perhaps described HB electro even more. >>Absolutely. Thank you. Sandy. Uh, so with with HB Electoral we're launching a new brand of cloud native hardware infrastructure to power our customers data all the way from edge to the core to the cloud. The releases are smaller models for the edge then at the same time having models for the data center and then expanding those services into the public cloud as well. Right. All these hardware devices, Electoral hardware devices are cloud native and powered by our data services. Cloud Council, we're announcing two models with this launch H. P. E Electoral 9000. Uh, this is for our mission critical workloads. It has its history and bases in H P E. Primera. It comes with 100% availability guarantee. Uh It's the first of its type in the industry. It comes with standard support contract, no special verb is required. And then we're also launching HB Electoral 6000. Uh These are based in our history of uh nimble storage systems. Uh These these are for business critical applications, especially for that mid range of the storage market, optimizing price, performance and efficiency. Both of these systems are full envy any storage powered by our timeless capabilities with data in place upgrades. And then they both deliver a unified infrastructure and data management experience through the data services, cloud console. Uh And and and at the back end unified Ai Ops experience with H P. E. Info site is seamlessly blended in along with the offering for our >>customers. So this is what I was talking about before. It's sort of not your grandfather's storage business anymore. This is this is this is something that is part of that, that unified vision, that layer that I talked about, the A. P. I. Is the program ability. So you're you're reaching into new territory here. Maybe you can give us an example of how the customers experience what that looks like. >>Excellent. Love to Dave. So essentially what we're doing is we're changing the storage experience to a true cloud operational model for our customers. These recent announcements that we just went through along with, indeed they expand the cloud experience that our customers get with storage as a service with HP Green Lake. So a couple of examples to make this real. So the first of all is simplified deployment. Uh So I t no longer has to go through complex startup and deployment processes. Now all you need to do is these systems shipped and delivered to the customer's data center. Operational staff just need to rack and stack and then leave connect the power cable, connect the network cable. And the job is done. From that point onwards, data services console takes over where you can onboard these systems, you can provision these systems if you have a pre existing organization wide security as well as standard profile setup in data services console, we can automatically apply those on your behalf and bring these systems online. From a customer's perspective, they can be anywhere in the world to onboard these systems, they could be driving in a car, they could be sitting on a beach. Uh And and you know, these systems are automatically on boarded through this cloud operational model which is delivered through the SAAS application for our customers. Another big example. All that I'd like to shed light on is intent based provisioning. Uh So Dave typically provisioning a workload within a data center is an extremely spreadsheet driven trial and error kind of a task. Which system do I land it on? Uh Is my existing sl is going to be affected which systems that loaded which systems are loaded enough that I put this additional workload on it and the performance doesn't take. All of these decisions are trial and error on a constant basis with cloud Data services console along with the electron new systems that are constantly in a loop back information feeding uh Typical analytics to the console. All you need to do is to describe the type of the workload and the intent of the workload in terms of block size S. L. A. That you would like to experience at that point. Data services console consults with intra site at the back end. We run through thousands of data points that are constantly being given to us by your fleet and we come back with a few recommendations. You can accept the recommendation and at that time we go ahead and fully deploy this workload on your behalf or you can specify a particular system and then people try to enforce the S. L. A. On that system. So it completely eliminates the guesswork and the planning that you have to do in this regard. Uh And last but not the least. Uh You know, one of the most important things is, you know, upgrades has been a huge problem for our customers. Uh And typically oftentimes when you're not in this constant, you know, loop back communication with your customers. It often is a big challenge to identify which release or which bug fix or which update goes on to which particular machine, all of that has been completely taken away from our customers and fully automated. Uh We run thousands of signatures across are installed base. We identify which upgrades need to be curated for which machines in a fleet for a particular customer. And then if it applies to that customer we presented, and if the customer accepts it, we automatically go ahead and upgrade the system and and and last, but not the least from a global management perspective. Now, a customer has an independent data view of their data estate, independent from a storage estate and data services. Council can blend the two to give a consistent view or you can just look at the fleet view or the data view. >>It's kind of the holy Grail. I mean I've been in this business a long time and I think I. T. People have dreamt about you know this kind of capability for for a long long time. I wonder if we could sort of stay on the customers for a moment here and and talk about what's enabled. Now. Everybody's talking digital transformation. I joke about the joke. Not funny. The force marched to digital with Covid. Uh and we really wasn't planned for but the customers really want to drive now that digital transfer some of them are on the back burner and now they're moving to the front burner. What are the outcomes that are that are enabled here? Omar. >>Excellent. So so on on a typical basis for a traditional I. T. Customer this cloud operational model means that you know information technology staff can move a lot faster and they can be a lot more productive on the things that are directly relevant to their business. They can get up to 99% of the savings back to spend more time on strategic projects or best of all spend time with their families rather than managing and upgrading infrastructure and fleets of infrastructure. Right for line of business owners, the new experience means that their data infrastructure can be presented can be provision where the self service on demand type of capability. Uh They necessarily don't have to be in the data center to be able to make those decisions. Capacity management, performance management, all of that is died in and presented to them wherever they are easy to consume. SaS based models and especially for data innovators, whether it's D B A s, whether it's data analysts, they can start to consume infrastructure and ultimately data as a code to speed up their app development because again, the context that we're bringing forward is the context of data decoupling it from. Actually, storage management, storage management and data management are now two separate domains that can be presented through a single console to tie the end to end picture for a customer. But at the end of the day, what we have felt is that customers really, really want to rely and move forward with the data management and leave infrastructure management to machine oriented task, which we have completely automated on their behalf. >>So I'm sure you've heard you got the memo about, you know, H H p going all in on as a service. Uh it is clear that the companies all in. How does this announcement fit in to that overall mission? Cindy >>dave We believe the future is edge to cloud and our mission is to be the edge to cloud platform as a service company and as as HB transforms HP Green Lake is our unified cloud platform. Hp Green Link is how we deliver cloud services and agile cloud experiences to customers applications and data across the edge to cloud. With the storage announcement that we made recently, we announced that we're expanding HB Green Lake with as a service transformation of the HPV storage business to a cloud native software defined data services business. And this expands storage as a service, delivering full cloud experience to our customers data across edge and on prem environment across the board were committed to being a strategic partner for every one of our customers and helping them accelerate their digital transformation. >>Yeah, that's where the puck is going guys. Hey as always great conversation with with our friends from HP storage. Thanks so much for the collaboration and congratulations on the announcements and and I know you're not done yet. >>Thanks. Dave. Thanks. Dave. >>Thanks. Dave. It's a pleasure to be here. >>You're very welcome. And thank you for being with us for hp. You discovered 2021 you're watching the cube, the leader digital check coverage. Keep it right there, but right back. >>Yeah. Yeah.

>>the idea of cloud is changing from a set of remote services somewhere out there in the cloud to an operating model that supports workloads on prem across clouds and increasingly at the near and far edge moreover, workloads are evolving from a predominance of general purpose systems to increasingly data intensive applications, developers are a new breed of innovators and kubernetes is a linchpin of creating new cloud native workloads that are in the cloud but also modernizing existing application portfolios to connect them to cloud native apps. Hello, we want to welcome back to HPD discovered 2021 the cubes ongoing coverage. This is Dave Volonte and with me are scott. Buchanan is the vice president of marketing at VM ware and Toby Weiss, who is the vice president of global hybrid cloud practice at HP gents. Welcome to the Q. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thank you. Day agreed to be here. >>Okay, thanks for having >>us. So you heard my little narrative upfront. Um and so let's get into it. I want to start with with some of the key trends that you guys see in the marketplace and maybe scott you could kick us off from VM ware's perspective. What are you seeing that's really driving? Uh I. T. Today. >>Well, Dave you started with a conversation around cloud, right, and you can't really have a conversation around cloud without also talking about applications. And so much of the interaction that we're having with customers these days is about how we bring apps and clouds together and modernize across those two dimensions at the same time. And that's a pretty complex discussion to have and it's a complex journey to navigate. And so we're here to talk to customers and to work with h Pe to help our customers across those two dimensions. >>Great, so Toby I mean, it's always been about applications, as scott said, but but the application, the nature of applications is changing how we develop applications. The mentioned it sort of data intensive applications were injecting ai uh into virtually everything the apps, the process, the people even um uh from a from the perspective of really a company that supports applications with infrastructure, what are you seeing in the marketplace? What can you add to that discussion? >>Yes. Great point. Dave you know, with the scent with applications becoming more central, think about what that means uh and has been for developer communities and developers becoming uh more important customers for I. T. Uh We have to make it easier for these developers uh to speed their innovations to market. Right? The business demands newer and faster capabilities of these applications. So our job in the infrastructure and uh it was called the platform layer is to help we need to build these kinds of platforms that allow developers to innovate more quickly. >>So we talked earlier about sort of modernizing apps. I mean, it seems to me that the starting point there is you want to containerized and obviously kubernetes is the, is the key there, but so okay, so if that's the starting point, where's the journey, what does that look like? Maybe scott you could chime in there >>Sure. A couple of quick thoughts there, dave and Toby to build on first, is if you look at the Cloud Native Computing Foundation Landscape today, which you can do at landscape dot c n c f dot io Holy Smokes, is that a jungle? So a lot of organizations need a guide through that CN cf landscape, they need a partner that they can trust to show them the way through that landscape. And then secondly, there needs to be ways to make these technologies easier to adopt and to use in practice kubernetes being the ultimate example of that. And so we've been hard at work to try and make it easy and natural to make kubernetes Part of 1's existing infrastructure. So that building with and working with containers can be done on the same platform that you're using for virtual machines. >>So let's let's talk a little bit about cloud and how you guys are thinking about cloud. Remember told me that Back in VM World 2010, it was the very first vm world for the Cube. All we talked about was a cloud, but it was a private cloud was really what we were talking about, which at the time largely met the virtualized data center. Um it was kind of before the software defined data center and today we're still talking about cloud, but it's it's hybrid cloud, it's kind of the narrative that I set up front data center. It's become for the most part software to find. And so how do you see this changing the I. T. Operating model? >>I think it's a great question. And and look today you will see us talk a lot about this notion of cloud everywhere. So less differentiation about private and public and more about the experience of cloud. Right public. Cloud brought great innovations and what better than to bring those innovations to on premise workloads that we've chosen to operate and work there. So as we think about cloud more as an experience we want for our developers and our end users and our I. T. Organizations. We begin to think about how can we replicate that experience in an on premise environment. And so part of that is having the technologies that enable you to do that. The other part is um We most of us have evolved alrighty organization operating models to operate our cloud infrastructures off premises. Well now expanding that more holistically across our organization so we don't have to operating models but a single operating model that bridges both and brings the ability of both those together to get the most benefit as we really become to integrate and become truly hybrid in our organization. So I think the operating model is critical and um the kinds of experiences we deliver to the users of that I. T. Uh infrastructure and operating model is critical as well. >>Are you guys are both basically in the infrastructure business scott? Maybe we can start with you there's a lot of changes that we're talking about in it. Generally the data center specifically especially big changes in workloads with a lot more data intensive apps ai being injected into everything Kubernetes, making things more facile. And in many ways it simplifies things, but it also puts stress on the system because you've got to protect this, they're no longer stateless apps right there, state full and you gotta protect them and and so they've got to be compliant. Um Now you've got the edge coming in. Uh So my question is, what does infrastructure have to do to keep pace with all this application innovation? >>Uh One of the conversations that we are having increasingly with our customers is how can they embrace a dev sec ops mindset in their organization and adopt some of these more modern patterns and practices and make sure that security is embedded in the life cycle of the container. And and so, you know, I think that this is part of, the answer is equipping the operator through infrastructure to set guard rails in place so that the development organization can work with freedom inside of those guard rails that it can draw on a catalogs of curated container images, catalogs of apps start from templates. Those are the building blocks that allow developers to work faster and that allow an operator to ensure the integrity and compliance of the containers and the applications that the organizations building. >>Yeah, So, so that's kind of uh when I hear scott talking about that Toby I think infrastructure as code designing security and governance in we always we always said I was an afterthought, we kind of bolted it on second. The security team had to take care of that. This is always the same thing with backup. Right? So we got an app. It's all ready to go. How do we back it up? And so that's changing that whole notion of infrastructure as code. Um, I want to talk about Green lake in a minute, but, but before we get there, I wonder if you could talk about how HP E thinks about VM ware and how you guys are partnering. I'm specifically interested and where each of you sees the value that you bring to the table for your joint customers. >>Yeah, great question. You know, and, and starting to think about history like you did 2010 being the start of a cube journey. I, I remember in 2003 when we first partnered with VM ware in the very first data center consolidations and we built practices around this. It's been quite a long partnership with VM ware and I'm excited to see this. This partnership evolved today, especially into this cloud, native space and direction. Uh, it's critical we need you know uh you know customers have choices and we need great partners like VM ware uh to help satisfy the many different use cases and choices that our customers have. So while we bring you know good depth when it comes to building these infrastructures that become highly automated um and managed in some cases and consume consumable like on a consumption basis and automated like we help clients automate their ci Cd pipeline. We depend on technologies and partners like them where to make these outcomes real for our customers. >>Yeah I think there's a way to connect a couple of the points that we've been talking about today. Got some data from a state of kubernetes study that we just ran and this is 350 I. T. Decision makers who said uh that they're running kubernetes on premise, 55% of respondents are running kubernetes on premise today and so VM ware and HP get to work together to bring kubernetes to those enterprises, 96% of them said that they're having a challenge selecting the right kubernetes distribution, 60 of them in that C. N. C. F. Landscape and the number one criteria that they're going to use to choose the right distribution, you know set them on a path forward is that it's easy to deploy and to operate and to maintain in production. And so I think that this is where the m wear and HP get to come together to help try and keep things as simple as possible for customers as they navigate. A fairly complex world. >>That's interesting scott. So who are those um those on prem users of containers and kubernetes? Is it the is it the head of you know the the application team and an insurance company whose kind of maintaining the claims about? Is it is a guy's building new cloud native apps to help companies get digital first. Who are those? What's the persona look like >>in our conversations? You know, this is the infrastructure and operations team seen that there's energy around kubernetes and maybe there's some use in test and development and parts of the organization. And by centralizing over ownership of that kubernetes footprint, they can ensure that it's compliant if policy is set properly to your point earlier that it's meets the security standards for the organization. And so it's increasingly that SRE or site reliability engineer or platform operator who's taking ownership of that kubernetes footprint for the organization to ensure that consistency of management and experience for the development teams across the larger order Toby, is that what you're seeing? Two, >>yeah, we see uh we see quite a few, we engage with quite a few developer teams in business leads that have ambitions to speed their application development processes And uh you know, they want help and often as I stated, the intro, they might be coming off of a much older deployment uh maybe from 2015 where there there were an early adopter of a container platform methodology and wanting to get to some newer platform or they they may be in charge of getting a mobile banking application and its features to market much more quickly. So, and often when we get a quote maybe from a client, it might come from, you know, the VP of a business unit. But often as we engage, it's, you know, the developers are pretty much our customers and their developer leaders and teams, >>so you're running into container technical debt already. You're seeing that out there. It sounds like your legacy >>container. It takes some expertise to, to come off those older. You know, the first instance creations of these container platforms were pretty much open source. And yeah, you want to bring it to something that's more modern and has the kinds of features, enterprise grade features you might need. >>So is it not so problematic for for customers? Because as I said before, a lot of those apps were sort of disposable and stateless. And, and, and now they're saying, hey, we can actually use kubernetes to build, you know, mission critical apps. And so there, that's when they sort of decide to pivot to a new modern platform or is there a more complex migration involved? What are you seeing? >>Okay, I'll give my hot, take your Toby and then uh, ask you for yours. But I guess I feel like the conversations that I'm involved in with customers is, you know, always begins with their broader application portfolio. These enterprises have hundreds thousands of applications and job one is to figure out how to categorize them into those which need to be re hosted or platforms or re factored or reimagined entirely. And so they're looking for help figuring out how to categorize those applications and ultimately how to attack each category of application. Some should be re platforms on environments that make best use of kubernetes, some need to be re factored, some need to be reimagined. And so they are again looking for that expert guide to show them the way >>right. And when we engage in those early discussions, we call it right Mix advisory. Um, you know, you're trying to take a full of broad scope as he said, scott down to a few and uh you know, determine kind of the first movers if you will also, you know, clients will engage you know, for very specific applications that are or suite of applications. Again like mobile applications for banking I think are a good example because you know they have an ambition. I mean the leader of that kind of application may very well think that is the mission critical application for the company, right? But of course finance, they have a different point of view. So you know that that application to them is the center of their business getting, you know, their customer access to the core banking features that they have and you know, they want to zero in on the kind of ecosystem. It takes in in the speed at which they can push new features through. So we see both as well um you know, the broader scope application, weaning down to the few discovery application, uh and then of course a very focused effort to help a particular business unit speed development on their mobile app, for example, >>it's interesting scott you were talking about sort of the conversation starts with the application portfolio and there have been there have been these sort of milestones around, you know, major application portfolio, I'll call him rationalizations, I mean there's always an ongoing but y two K was one of those, this is sort of the big move to SAS was another one, obviously cloud and it feels like kubernetes, I mean it's like the cloud to Dato coming on Prem is another one of those opportunities to rationalize applications. We all know the stats right, we always see 85% of the spend is to keep the lights on and the other the only small portions innovation and you know, there's always a promise we can change that. It reminds me of the every year I would go to the boston marathon, it was this guy would run and he had a hat on with the extension and it was a can of Budweiser way out there and he couldn't reach it and so he would run, it was almost the same thing here is they never get there because they have so many projects coming online and the project portfolio and and then and then the C I O has got to maintain those in the application heads and so it's this, this ongoing thing but you do see spikes in rationalization initiatives and it feels like with this push to modernization and digitization maybe the pandemic accelerated that too. Is that a reasonable premise? You seeing sort of a milestone or a marker in terms of increased effort around rationalization and modernization today because of kubernetes? >>Yeah, I definitely think that there are a couple of kubernetes is a catalyzing technology and the challenges of the pandemic or a catalyzing moment. Right. And I feel like uh Organisations have seen over the past 18 months now that those enterprises that have a way to get innovation to market to customers faster, not once a quarter, but many times a day are the ones that are separating themselves in competitive marketplaces and ultimately delivering superior customer experiences. So it comes back to some of the ideas full circle that Toby started with around delivering a superior developer experience so that those developers can get code to production and into the hands of customers on a much more rapid basis. Like that's the outcome that enterprises really care about at the end of the day. And kubernetes is part of the way to get there. But it's the outcome that's key. Great, thank >>you. And one of our practices dave there was uh you know, that's been our bread and butter for so many years. This, you know, this broad based discovery, narrowing down to a strategy and a plan for migrating and moving certain workloads. We see a slight twist today in that clients and organizations want to move quicker too. The apps, they know that, you know, they want to focus on, they want to prove it by through the broad based discovery and kind of a strategic analysis, but they want to get quicker right away to the workloads. They are quite sure that need re factoring or leverage the benefit of a modern developer environment >>and they don't want to be messing around with provisioning lungs and servers and all that stuff. They want that to be simplified. So we're gonna end on Green Lake and I want to understand how you guys are thinking about Green Lake in terms of your partnership and how you're working together, you know, maybe Toby you could sort of give us the update from your perspective, you can't have a conversation with HP today without talking about Green Lake. So give us the kool aid injection. And then I really interested in how VM ware thinks about participating in that. >>Absolutely. And, and thank you for uh, yeah, for helping us out here. You know, I see more and more of our engagements with clients that ask for and, and, and want to sign a Green Life based contract, >>but, >>and that is one very important foundational element. Uh and there's there's so much more because remember we talked about the cloud experience in cloud everywhere and Green Lake brings us an opportunity to bring dimensions to that, especially on the consumption model because that's that's an important element if we begin adding partners such as VM ware to this equation, especially for clients that have huge investments in VM where there's an opportunity here to really bring a lot of value with this cloud experience to our customers through this partnership. >>All right scott, we're gonna give you the last word. What's your take on this? >>Hey listen hard for me to to to add much to what Toby said, he nailed that you see a ton of energy in this space. I think we've covered a bunch of key topics today. Their ongoing conversations with our customers in Green Link is a way to take that conversation to the next level. >>Guys really appreciate you coming on and give us your perspectives on kubernetes and and and and thank you scott for that data. 55% of I. T. Decision makers out of 350 said they're doing on prem kubernetes. That's a new stat. I hadn't I would have expected to be that high but I guess I'm not surprised it's the rage the developers want the latest and greatest guys. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and I appreciate you coming on the cube. >>Thank you. Dave. >>Thanks Dave. >>Thank you for watching the cubes ongoing coverage. Hp es discover 2021. The virtual version will be right back. >>Mm.

>> We're here at the Data Cloud Summit 2020, tracking the rise of the data cloud. And we're talking about the ecosystem powering the next generation of innovation in cloud, you know, for decades, the technology industry has been powered by great products. Well, the cloud introduced a new type of platform that transcended point products and the next generation of cloud platforms is unlocking data-centric ecosystems where access to data is at the core of innovation, tapping the resources of many versus the capabilities of one. Casey McGee is here. He's the vice president of global ISV sales at Microsoft, and he's joined by Colleen Kapase, who is the VP of partnerships and global alliances at Snowflake. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. It's great to see you. >> Thanks Dave, good to see you. Thank you. >> Thanks for having us here. >> You're very welcome. So, Casey, let me start with you please. You know, Microsoft's got a long heritage, of course, working with partners, you're renowned in that regard, built a unbelievable ecosystem, the envy of many in the industry. So if you think about as enterprises, they're speeding up their cloud adoption, what are you seeing as the role and the importance of ecosystem, the ISV ecosystem specifically, in helping make customers' outcomes successful? >> Yeah, let me start by saying we have a 45 year history of partnership, so from our very beginning as a company, we invested to build these partnerships. And so let me start by saying from day one, we looked at a diverse ecosystem as one of the most important strategies for us, both to bring innovation to customers and also to drive growth. And so we're looking to build that environment even today. So 45 years later, focused on how do we zero in on the business outcomes that matter most to customers, usually identified by the industry that they're serving. So really building an ecosystem that helps us serve both the customers and the business outcomes they're looking to drive. And so we're building that ecosystem of ISVs on the Microsoft cloud and focused on bringing that innovation as a platform provider through those companies. >> So Casey, let's stay on that for a moment, if we can. I mean, you work with a lot of ISVs and you got a big portfolio of your own solutions. Now, sometimes they overlap with the ISV offerings of your partners. How do you balance the focus on first party solutions and third-party ISV partner solutions? >> Yeah, first and foremost, we're a platform company. So our whole intent is to bring value to that partner ecosystem. Well, sometimes that means we may have offers in market that may compliment one another. Our focus is really on serving the customer. So anytime we see that, we're looking at what is the most desired outcome for our customer, driving innovation into that specific business requirement. So for us, it's always focusing on the customer, and really zeroing in on making sure that we're solving their business problems. Sometimes we do that together with partners like Snowflake. Sometimes that means we do that on our own, but the key for us is really deeply understanding what's important to the customer and then bringing the best of the Microsoft and Snowflake scenarios to bear. >> You know, Casey, I appreciate that. A lot times people say "Dave, don't ask me that question. It's kind of uncomfortable." So Colleen, I want to bring you into the discussion. How does Snowflake view this dynamic, where you're simultaneously partnering and competing sometimes with some of the big cloud companies on the planet? >> Yeah, Dave, I think it's a great question, and really in this era of innovation, so many large companies like Microsoft are so diverse in their product set, it's almost impossible for them to not have some overlap with most of their ecosystem. But I think Casey said it really well, as long as we stay laser focused on the customer, and there are a lot of very happy Snowflake customers and happy Azure customers, we really win together. And I think we're finding ways in which we're working better and better together, from a technology standpoint, and from a field standpoint. And customers want to see us come together and bring best of breed solutions. So I think we're doing a lot better, and I'm looking forward to our future, too. >> So Casey, Snowflake, you know, they're really growing, they've got a pretty large footprint on Azure. You're talking hundreds of customers here that are active on that platform. I wonder if you could talk about the product integration points that you kind of completed initially, and then kind of what's on the horizon that you see as particularly important for your joint customers? >> You have to say, so one of the things that I love about this partnership is that, well, we start with what the customer wants. We bring that back into the engineering-level relationship that we have between the two companies. And so that's produced some pretty incredibly rich functionality together. So let me start by saying, you know, we've got eight Azure regions today with nine coming on soon. And so we have a geographic diversity that is important for many of our customers. We've also got a series of engineering-level integrations that we've already built. So that's functionality for Azure Private Link, as well as integration between Power BI, Azure Data Factory, and Azure Data Lake, all of this back again to serve the business outcomes that are required for our customers. So it's this level of integration that I think really speaks to the power of the partnership. So we are intently focused on the democratization of data. So we know that Snowflake is the premier partner to help us do that. So getting that right is key to enabling high concurrency use cases with large numbers of businesses, users coming together, and getting the performance they expect. >> Yeah, I appreciate that Casey, because a lot of times I'll, you know, I'll look at the press release. Sometimes we laugh, we call them Barney deals. You know, "I love you. You love me." But I listen for the word engineering and integration. Those are sort of important triggers. Colleen, or Casey too, but I want to start with Colleen. I mean, anything you would add to that, are there things that you guys have worked on together that you're particularly proud of, or maybe that have pushed the envelope and enabled new capabilities for customers where they've given you great feedback? Any examples you can share? >> Great question. And we're definitely focusing on making sure stability is a core value for both of us, so that what we offer, that our customers can trust, is going to work well and be dependable, so that's a key focus for us. We're also looking at how can we advance into the future, what can we do around machine learning, it's an area that's really exciting for a lot of the CXO-level leadership at our customers, so we're certainly focused on that. And also looking at Power BI and the visualization of how do we bring these solutions together as well. I'd also say at the same time, we're trying to make the buying experience frictionless for our customers, so we're also leveraging and innovating with Azure's Marketplace, so that our customers can easily acquire Snowflake together with Azure. And even that is being helpful for our customers. Casey, what are your thoughts, too? >> Yeah, let me add to that. I think the work that we've done with Power BI is pretty, pretty powerful. I mean, ultimately, we've got customers out there that are looking to better visualize the data, better inform decisions that they're making. So as much as AI and ML and the inherent power of the data that's being stored within Snowflake is important in and of itself, Power BI really unlocks that and helps drive better decisions, better visualization, and help drive to decision outcomes that are important to the customer. So I love the work that we're doing on Power BI and Snowflake. >> Yeah, and you guys both mentioned, you know, machine learning. I mean, they really are an ecosystem of tools. And the thing to me about Azure, it's all about optionality. You mentioned earlier, Casey, you guys are a platform. So, you know, customer A may want to use Power BI. Another customer might want to use another visualization tool, fine, from a platform perspective, you really don't care, do you? So I wonder Colleen, if we could, and again, maybe Casey can chime in afterwards. You guys, obviously everybody these days, but you in particular, you're focused on customer outcomes. That's the sort of starting point, and Snowflake for sure has built pretty significant experience working with large enterprises and working alongside of Microsoft to get other partners. In your experience, what are customers really looking for out of the two joint companies when they engage with Snowflake and Microsoft, so that one plus one is, you know, much bigger than two. Maybe Colleen, you could start. >> Yeah, I definitely think that what our customers are looking for is both trust and seamlessness. They just want the technology to work. The beauty of Snowflake is our ease of use. So many customers have questions about their business, more so now in this pandemic world than ever before. So the seamlessness, the ease of use, the frictionless, all of these things really matter to our joint customers, and seeing our teams come together, too, in the field, to show here's how Snowflake and Azure are better together, in your local area, and having examples of customers where we've had win-wins, which I'd say Casey, we're getting more and more of those every day, frankly, so it's pretty exciting times. And having our sales teams work as a partnership, even though we compete, we know where we play well together, and I see us doing that over and over again, more and more, around the world, too, which is really important as Snowflake pushes forward, beyond the North America geographies into stronger and stronger in the global regions, where frankly, Microsoft's had a long, storied history at. That's very exciting, especially in Europe and Asia. >> Casey, anything you'd add to that? >> Yeah. Colleen, it's well said. I think ultimately, what customers are looking for is that when our two companies come together, we bring new innovation, new ideas, new ways to solve old problems. And so I think what I love about this partnership is ultimately when we come together, whether it's engineering teams coming together to build new product, whether it's our sales and marketing teams out in front of the customers, across that spectrum, I think customers are looking for us to help bring new ideas. And I love the fact that we've engineered this partnership to do just that. And ultimately we're focused on how do we come together and build something new and different. And I think we can solve some of the most challenging problems with the power of the data and the innovation that we're bringing to the table. >> I mean, you know, Casey, I mean, everybody's really quite in awe and amazed at Microsoft's transformation, and really openness and willingness to really, change and lean into some of the big waves. I wonder if you could talk about your multi-platform strategy and what problems that you're solving in conjunction with Snowflake. >> Yeah, let me start by saying, you know, I think as much as we appreciate that feedback on the progress that we've been striving for, I mean, we're still learning every day, looking for new opportunities to learn from customers, from partners, and so a lot of what you see on the outside is the result of a really focused culture, really focusing on what's important to our customers, focusing on how do we build diversity and inclusion to everything we do, whether that's within Microsoft, with our partners, our customers, and ultimately, how do we show up as one Microsoft, I call one Microsoft kind of the partner's gift. It's ultimately how do our companies show up together? So I think if you look multi-platform, we have the same concept, right? We have the Microsoft cloud that we're offering out in the marketplace. The Microsoft cloud consists of what we're serving up as far as the platform, consists of what we're serving up for data and AI, modern workplace and business applications. And so this multi-cloud strategy for us is really focused on how do we bring innovation across each of the solution areas that matter most to customers. And so I see really the power of the Snowflake partnership playing in there. >> Awesome. Colleen, are there any examples you can share where, maybe this partnership has unlocked the customer opportunity or unique value? >> Yeah, I can't speak about the customer-specific, but what I can do and say is, Casey and I play very corporate roles in terms of we're thinking about the long-term partnership, we're driving the strategy. But hey, look, we'll get called in, we're working a deal right now, it's almost close of the quarter for us, we're literally working on an opportunity right now, how can we win together, how can we be competitive, the customers, the CIO has asked us to come together, to work on that solution. Very large, well-known brand. And we're able to get up to the very senior levels of our companies very quickly to make decisions on what do we need to do to be better and stronger together. And that's really what a partnership is about, you can do the long-term plans and the strategics and you can have great products, but when your executives can pick up the phone and call each other to work on a particular deal, for a particular customer's need, I think that's where the power of the partnership really comes together, and that's where we're at. And that's been a growth opportunity for us this year, is, wasn't necessarily where we were at, and I really have to thank Casey for that. He's done a ton, getting us the right glue between our executives, making sure the relationships are there, and making sure the trust is there, so when our customers need us to come together, that dialogue and that shared diction of putting customers first is there between both companies. So thank you, Casey. >> Oh, thanks, Colleen, the feeling's mutual. >> Well, I think this is key because as I said up front, we've gone from sort of very product-focused to platform-focused. And now we're tapping the power of the ecosystem. That's not always easy to get all the parts moving together, but we live in this API economy. You could say "Hey, I'm a company, everything's going to be homogeneous. Everything is going to be my stack." And maybe that's one way to solve the problem, but really that's not how customers want to solve the problem. Casey, I'll give you the last word. >> Yeah, let me just end by saying, you know, first off the cultures between our two companies couldn't be more well aligned. So I think ultimately when you ask yourself the question, "What do we do to best show up in front of our customers?" It is, focus on their business outcomes, focus on the things that matter most to them. And this partnership will show up well. And I think ultimately our greatest opportunity is to tap into that need, to that interest. And I couldn't be happier about the partnership and the fact that we are so well aligned. So thank you for that. >> Well guys, thanks very much for coming on theCUBE and unpacking some of the really critical aspects of the ecosystem. It was really a pleasure having you. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Okay, and thank you for watching. Keep it right there. We've got more great content coming your way at the Data Cloud Summit.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled. Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, welcome back Variety. Jeff Freak here with the Cube were Palo Alto studios. And we like to welcome you back to our continuing coverage of biz. Opps manifesto. Unveil. Exciting day to really, uh, kind of bring this out into public. There's been a little bit of conversation, but today is really the official unveiling, and we're excited to have our next guest to share a little bit more information on it. He's Patrick Tickle. He's a chief product officer for plan view. Patrick, great to see you. Yeah, it's great to be here. Thanks for the invite. So why the biz? Opps manifesto? Why the bizarre coalition? Now, when you guys have been added, it's relatively mature marketplace. Business is good. What was missing? Why? Why this? Why this coalition? >>Yeah, so you know, again, Why? Why is bizarre is important. And why is this something I'm you know, I'm so excited about, but I think companies as well, right? Well, no. In some ways or another, this is a topic that I've been talking to you know the market in our customers about for a long time. And it's, you know, I really applaud, you know, this whole movement, right? And, um, it resonates with me because I think one of the fundamental flaws, frankly, of the way we have talked about technology and business literally for decades has been this idea of alignment. Those who know me, I occasionally get off on this little rant about the word alignment. Right? But to me, the word alignment is actually indicative of the of the of the flaw in a lot of our organizations. And biz ops is really, I think, now, trying to catalyze and expose that flaw, right? Because, you know, I I always say that, you know, you know, alignment implies silos right the instantaneously with soon as you say, there's alignment. There's there's obviously somebody who's got a direction and other people that have tow line up and that that kind of siloed, uh, nature of organizations. And then, frankly, the passive nature of I think so many technology organizations like look, the business has the strategy. You guys need to align right and and, you know, is a product leader right that's what I've been my whole career, right? I can tell you that I never sit around. I almost never used the word alignment, right. I mean, whether you know, I never sit down and say, you know, the product management team has to get aligned with death, right? Or the Dev team has to get aligned with the delivery and ops teams. I mean, what I say is, are we on strategy? Right? Like we have a strategy, a zey full end to end value stream, right, and that there's no silos, and I mean, look, every on any given day, we got to get better, right? But the context, the context we operate is not about alignment, right? It's about being on strategy. And I think I've talked to customers a lot about that. But when I first read the manifesto, I was like, Oh, you know, this is exactly this. Is breaking down maybe trying to eliminate the word alignment, you know, from a lot of our organizations, because we literally start thinking about one strategy and how we go from strategy to delivery and have it be our strategy, not someone else's, that we're all aligning to it. And it's a great way to catalyze. You know, that conversation that I've It's been in my mind for years, to be honest, >>right? So, so much to unpack there. One of the things, obviously, uh, stealing a lot from from Dev Ops and the Dev Ops manifesto from 20 years ago. And and as I looked through some of the principles and I looked through some of the values which are, you know, really nicely laid out here, you know, satisfied customers do continues delivery, uh, measure output against riel results. Um, the ones that that jumps out that was really about, you know, change change, right requirements should change frequently. They do change frequently, but I'm curious to get your take from A from a software development point. It's easy to kind of understand, right? We're making this widget, and our competitors made a widget plus X, and now we need to change our plans and make sure that the plus X gets added to the plan. Maybe it wasn't in the plan. You talked a lot about product strategy. So in this kind of continuous delivery world, how does that meld with? I'm actually trying to set a strategy which implies a direction for a little bit further out on the horizon. And to stay on that while at the same time you're kind of doing this real time, continual adjustments because you're not working off a giant PRD or M R d anymore. Yeah, >>totally. Yeah. You know, one of the terms you know, that we use internally a lot on even with my customers, our customers is we talked about this idea rewiring right, and I think you know. So it's kind of an analogy for transformation, and I think a lot of us have to rewire the way we think about things right. And I think it planned view where we have a lot of customers who live in that you know who operationalized that traditional ppm world right and are shifting toe agile and transforming that rewire super important and and to your point right, it's You've just you've got to embrace this idea of, you know, just iterative getting better every day and iterating iterating iterating as opposed to building annual plans. Or, you know, I get customers occasionally. Who asked me for two or three year roadmap right and I literally looked at them and I go There is No There is no scenario where I could build a two or three year roadmap. Right? You you think you want that? But that's not That's not the way we run, right. And I will tell you the biggest thing that for us, you know, that I think is matched the planning. You know, impedance is a word I like to use a lot. So the thing that we've like that we've done from a planning perspective, I think is matched impedance to continuous delivery is instituting the whole program. Implement the program in current planning capabilities and methodologies. Um, in the scaled, agile world, right. And over the last 18 months to two years, we really have now, you know, instrumented our company across three value streams. You know, we do Corley p I program increment 10 week planning, you know, And that becomes that becomes the terra firma of how we plan, right? And it's what are we doing for the next 10 weeks? And we iterated within those 10 weeks. But we also know that 10 weeks from now we're gonna we're gonna just generate again, right and that shifting of that planning model, you know, to being is cross functional. Is that as that big room planning kind of model is, um and also, you know, on that shorter increments. Um, when you get those two things in place also, the impedance really starts to match up with continuous delivery, and it changes. It changes the way you plan. And it changes the way you work, right? >>The other thing. Right. So obviously a lot of these things are kind of process driven both within the values as well as the principles. But there's a whole lot really about culture, and I just wanna highlight a couple of the values, right? We already talked about business outcomes, um, trust and collaboration, a data driven decisions and then learned responded Pivot, right. A lot of those air cultural as much as they are processed. So again, is that the Is that the need to really kind of just put them down on paper? And you know, e can't help but think of, you know, the hammer and up the thing in the Lutheran church with it with their manifesto. Is it just good to get it down? on paper, because when you read these things, you're like, Well, of course we should trust people. And, of course, we need an environment of collaboration. And, of course, we want data driven decisions. But as we all know, saying it and living it are two very, very different things. >>Yeah, good question. I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to bring that to life. You're right. And just hanging up. You know, I think we've all been through the hanging up posters around your office, which these days, right, Unless you're gonna hang a poster and everybody's home office, right, you can't even you can't even fake it that you think that might work, right? So, um, you know, you really, I think we have attacked that in a variety of ways, right? And you definitely have to, you know, you've got to make the shift to a team centric culture, right? Empowered teams. You know, that's a big deal, right? You know, a lot of a lot of the people that you know, we lived in a world of unquote where we lived in a deep resource management world for a long, long time and write a lot of our customers still do that, but, you know, kind of moving to that team centric world is eyes really important and court of the trust. I think training is super important, right? We've, you know, we've internally, right. We've trained hundreds employees over the last year and a half on the fundamentals. Really of safe, right? Not necessarily. You know, we've had we've had teams delivering and scrum and continuous delivery for, you know, for years. But this scaling aspect of it eyes where we've done a lot of training investment on Ben. You know, I think leadership has to be bought in, right, you know? And so we p I plan, you know, myself and camera and the other members are leadership, you know, we're in p I planning, you know, for for four days, right? I mean, you've gotta walk the walk, you know, from top to bottom. And you've got a train on the context, right? And then you and then and then once you get through a few cycles where you've done a pivot, right or you brought a new team in and it just works, it becomes kind of this virtuous circle where people go. Man, this really works so much better than what we used to dio, >>right? Right. Theater Really key principle to this whole thing is is aligning the business leaders and the business prioritization s so that you can get to good outcomes with the development and and the delivery, right? And we know again and kind of classic dev ops to get the Dev and the production people together so they can, you know, quickly ship code that works. Um, but adding the business person on there really puts puts a little extra responsibility that they they understand the value of a particular feature, a particular priority. Uh, they can make the trade offs and that they kind of understand the effort involved too. So, you know, bringing them into this continuous again kind of this continuous development process, Um, to make sure that things were better aligned and really better Prioritize, because ultimately, you know, we don't live in an infinite resource is situation and and people got to make tradeoffs. They gotta make decisions, is toe what goes and what doesn't go on for everything that goes right. I always say you pick one thing Okay, that's 99 other things that couldn't go. So it's really important to have you know, this you said alignment of the business priorities as well as you know, the execution within. Within the development. >>Yeah, I think that, you know, You know, I think it was probably close to two years ago, Forrester started talking about the age of the customer, right? That was like their big theme at the time, right? And I think to me what that the age of the customer actually translates to. And Mick, Mick and I are both big fans of this whole idea of the project. The product shift mixed book, you know, is a great piece on your talking assed part of the manifesto is one of the authors as well. But this shift from project to product, right? Like the age of the customer, in my opinion, the mhm, the embodiment that is the shift to a product mentality, right? And? And the product mentality, in my opinion, is what brings the business and technology teams together, right? Once, once you're focused on a customer experience is delivered through a product or service. That's when I That's when I start to go. The alignment problem goes away. Right? Because if you look at software companies, right, I mean, we run product management models with software development teams, customer success teams, right? That, you know, the software component of these products that people are building is obviously becoming bigger and bigger, you know, and in many ways, right. More more organizations, air trying to model themselves over as operationally like software companies, Right? They obviously have lots of other components in their business than just software. But I think that whole model of customer experience equaling product and then the software component of product the product is the essence of what changes that alignment equation and brings business and teams together. Because also, everyone knows what the customers experiencing, right, And that that that makes a lot of things very clear very quick, >>right? I'm just curious how far along this was as a process before, before Cove, it hit right, because serendipitous. Whatever. Right? But the sudden, you know, light switch moment. Everybody had to go work from home in March 15th. Compared to now, we're in October on. This is gonna be going on for a while and it is a new normal and whatever that whatever is gonna look like a year from now or two years from now is T v D. You know, had you guys already started on this journey because again, to sit down and actually declare this coalition and declare this manifesto is a lot different than just trying to do better within your own organization. Yeah, >>So we had started, you know, we definitely had started independently. You know, some some. You know, I think people in the community know that we we came together with a company called Link It Handful years ago. And I give John Terry, actually one of the founders link it immense credit for, you know, kind of spearheading our cultural change. And not and not because of we're just gonna be, you know, bringing agile solutions to our customers. But because, you know, he believed that it was gonna be a fundamentally better way for us to work, right. And we kind of, you know, and we started with John and built, you know, centric circles, momentum. And we've gotten to the place where now it's just part of who we are, but but I do think that you know, Cove it has. You know, I think pre Cove in a lot of companies, you know, would would adopt, you know, the would adopt digital slash agile transformation. Um, traditional industries may have done it as a reaction to disruption. Right, You know, And in many cases, though, the disruption to these traditional industries was, I would say, a product oriented company, right that probably had a larger software component, and that disruption caused a competitive issue or a customer issue that cause companies to try to respond by transforming. I think co vid, you know, all sudden flatten that out, right? We literally all got disrupted, right? And and so all of a sudden, every one of us is dealing with some degree of market uncertainty customer uncertainty on doll. So none of us are insulated from the need to be able to pivot faster, deliver incrementally, you know, and operating a different, completely more agile way. Uh, you know, Post Cove it right? >>Yeah, that's great. So again, very, very, very timely. You know, a little bit of serendipity, a little bit of planning and, you know, a zoo with all important things There's always a little bit of locking a a lot of hard work involved. So really interesting. Thank you for for your leadership, Patrick. And, you know, it really makes a statement. I think when you have a bunch of leaderships across an industry coming together and putting their name on a piece of paper, that's a line around us, um, principles and some values, which again, if you read them, who wouldn't want to get behind these? But if it takes, you know, something a little bit more formal, uh, to kind of move the ball down the field, and then I totally get it. And, uh, really great work. Thanks for Thanks for doing it. >>Oh, absolutely. No. Like I said, the first time I read it, I was like, Yeah, like you said, this is all this all makes complete sense, but just documenting it and saying it and talking about it moves the needle. I'll tell you, as a company, we were pushing really hard on, uh, you know, on our own internal strategy on diversity inclusion, right. And and like once we wrote the words down About what? You know what we aspire to be from a diversity and inclusion perspective. It's the same thing. Everybody reads the words and goes, Why wouldn't we do this right? But until you write it down and kind of have again, you know, a manifesto or a terra firma of what you're trying to accomplish, you know, Then you can rally behind right, as opposed to it being, you know, something that's everybody's got their own version of the flavor, right? And I think it's a very analogous, you know, kind of initiative. And, uh, it's happening. Both of those things right are happening across the industry these days, >>right and measure it to write and measure it. Measure, measure, get a baseline even if you don't like the measure, even if you don't like what the Even if you can argue against the math behind the measurement, measure it, and at least you could measure it again. And you've got some type of a compound that is really the only way toe to move it forward with. Patrick really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for for taking a few minutes out of your day. It's great to >>be here. It's an awesome movement, and we're glad to be part of it. All >>right. Thanks. And if you want to check out the biz ops manifesto goto biz Opps manifesto dot org's read it. You might want to sign it there for you. And thanks for tuning in on this segment. We'll continuing coverage of the bizarre manifesto unveiled here on the Cube. I'm Jeff. Thanks for watching.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of biz ops Manifesto unveiled Brought to you by Biz Ops Coalition >>Hey, welcome back Variety. Jeff Freak here with the Cube were Palo Alto Studios, and we like to welcome you back to our continuing coverage of biz. Opps manifesto Unveil. Exciting day to really, uh, kind of bring this out into public. There's been a little bit of conversation, but today is really the official unveiling, and we're excited to have our next guest to share a little bit. More information on it. He's Patrick Tickle. He's a chief product officer for plan view. Patrick, great to see you. Yeah, >>it's great to be here. Thanks for the invite. And it's Yeah, exciting day. It's fund a great topic to talk about, right? So before we >>jump into the manifesto, let's for people that aren't as familiar with plan view. Give us kind of the quick overview of what you guys are all about. Yeah, >>so plan, view. You know, we've We've been around for 30 years. The company on we've traditionally lived. We live in the strategy to delivery space. You know, people eso all about planning and connecting that all the way to delivery. You know, historically, a lot of people know us as having lived is the best breed leader in the world of ppm or project portfolio management. But you know, what's interesting about this conversation, in some ways is over The last couple of years, we've been through a massive transformation of our own and really, you know, added the whole world of agile transformation not just to who we are internally, but to the products and solutions we offer. So we now really spanned the world of the world of strategy and work, whether it's agile, traditional, uh, in ways that we never have before. And it's a super exciting time, right? >>And it's really interesting with Cove. It obviously a lot of challenges and and still tough times and dark some dark days ahead. But there's certain businesses, certain industries that are getting a little bit of a tailwind. So I assume that's really helping you guys. As you know now, you've got remote and distributed teams that need more organization and better tooling toe actually get stuff done. So I assume you guys businesses probably little bit on an uptake over the last several months. Yeah, >>that's that is absolutely true, right? I have that conversation all the time, right? I mean, these days, you know, strategy and delivery are pretty dynamic environments, right? And not just in terms of not just in terms of setting strategy and, you know, determining how to deliver. But, I mean, with teams being completely distributed, you know, uh, it's created a whole, as we all know, right? A whole new way of working. But our tool set really is kind of built. Turns out it was kind of built for purpose, you know, for this kind of environment. And it's created, like, very, very interesting time for playing you in for all of our customers. >>Right? And I think your upper right corner in the Gartner Magic Quadrant all that good, positive stuff. And >>you've been at this for a while. >>So why the biz? Opps manifesto? Why the bizarre coalition? Now, when you guys have been at it, it's relatively mature marketplace. Business is good. What was missing? Why? Why this? Why this coalition? >>Yeah, So you know, again, Why? Why is bizarre is important. And why is this something I'm you know I'm so excited about, but I think companies as well, right? Well, no. In some ways or another, this is a topic that I've been talking to, you know, the market in our customers about for a long time. And it's, you know, I really applaud, you know, this whole movement, right? And, um, it resonates with me because I think one of the fundamental flaws, frankly, of the way we have talked about technology and business literally for decades has been this idea of alignment. Those who know me, I occasionally get off on this little rant about the word alignment. Right? But to me, the word alignment is actually indicative of the of the of the flaw in a lot of our organizations. And biz ops is really, I think, now, trying to catalyze and expose that flaw, right, because, you know, I I always say that, you know, you know, alignment implies silos right the instantaneously with soon as you say, there's alignment. There's there's obviously somebody who's got a direction and other people that have tow line up and that that kind of siloed, uh, nature of organizations and then, frankly, the passive nature of right? I think so. Many technology organizations, like look, the business has the strategy. You guys need to align, right and and, you know, as a product leader, right? That's what I've been my whole career. Right? I can tell you that I never sit around. I almost never use the word alignment, right? I mean, whether you know, I never sit down and say, you know, the product management team has to get aligned with death, right? Or the Dev team has to get aligned with the, you know, delivery and ops teams. I mean, what I say is, are we on strategy? Right? Like we we have a strategy as a as a full end to end value stream, right, and that there's no silos, and I mean, look, every on any given day, we got to get better, right? But the context, the context we operate is not about alignment, right? It's about being on strategy. And I think I've talked to customers a lot about that. But when I first read the manifesto, I was like, Oh, you know, this is exactly this is breaking down maybe trying to eliminate the word alignment, you know, from a lot of our organizations because we literally start thinking about one strategy and how we go from strategy to delivery and have it be our strategy, not someone else's, that we're all aligning to it. And it's a great way to catalyze. You know, that conversation that I've has been in my mind for years be honest, >>right? So, So much to unpack there. One of the things, obviously, uh, stealing a lot from from Dev Ops in the Dev Ops Manifesto from 20 years ago. And as I looked through some of the principles and I looked through some of the values which are, you know, really nicely laid out here, you know, satisfied customer do continues delivery measure output against riel results. Um, the the ones that that jumps out, though, is really about, you know, change change. Right requirements should change frequently. They do change frequently, but I'm curious to get your take from a from a software development point. It's easy to kind of understand, right? We're making this widget, and our competitors made a widget plus X, and now we need to change our plans and make sure that the the plus X gets added to the plan. Maybe it wasn't in the plan. You talked a lot about product strategy. So in this kind of continuous delivery world, how does that meld with? I'm actually trying to set a strategy which implies a direction for a little bit further out on the horizon. And to stay on that while at the same time you're kind of doing this real time, continual adjustments because you're not working off a giant PRD or M R D anymore? Yeah, >>totally. Yeah. You know, one of the terms you know, that we use internally a lot on even with my customers, our customers is we talked about this idea of rewiring, right, and I think you know. So it's kind of an analogy for transformation, and I think a lot of us have to rewire the way we think about things right. And I think it plan view where we have a lot of customers who live in that you know who operationalized that traditional ppm world right and are shifting toe agile and transforming that rewire super important and to your point, right, it's you've just you've got to embrace this idea of, you know, just iterative getting better every day. And Iterating Iterating Iterating as opposed to building annual plans. Or, you know, I get customers occasionally. Who asked me for two or three year roadmap? Right? And I literally looked at them and I go, There's no, there's no scenario where I could build a two or three year roadmap, right? You you think you want that? But that's not That's not the way we run, right. And I will tell you the biggest thing that for us, you know, that I think is matched the planning. You know, impedance is a word I like to use a lot. So the thing that we've like that we've done from a planning perspective, I think is matched impedance to continuous delivery is instituting the whole program. Implement the program increments, planning capabilities and methodologies. Um, in the scaled, agile world, right. And over the last 18 months to two years, we really have now, you know, instrumented our company across three value streams. You know, we do quarterly p I program increment 10 week planning, you know, And that becomes that becomes the terra firma of how we plan, right? And it's what are we doing for the next 10 weeks, and we iterated within those 10 weeks. But we also know that 10 weeks from now we're gonna we're gonna just reiterate again, right? And that shifting of that planning model, you know, to being is cross functional. Is that as that big room planning kind of model is, um And also, you know, on that shorter increments when you get those two things in place. Also, the impedance really starts to match up with continuous delivery, and it changes. It changes the way you plan, and it changes the way you work, right? Thea? Other >>thing. Right. So obviously a lot of these things, that kind of process driven both within the values as well as the principles. But there's a whole lot really about culture, and I just want to highlight a couple of the values, right? We already talked about business outcomes, um, trust and collaboration, a data driven decisions and then learned responded pivot, right. A lot of those air cultural as much as they are processed. So again, is that Is that the need to really kind of just put them down on paper? And you know e can't help but think of you know, the hammering up the thing in the Lutheran church with it with their manifesto. Is it just good to get it down on paper? Because when you read these things, you're like, Well, of course we should trust people. And, of course, we need an environment of collaboration. And, of course, we want data driven decisions. But as we all know, saying it and living it are two very, very different things. >>Yeah, good question. I mean, I think there's a lot of ways to bring that to life. You're right. And just hanging up. You know, I think we've all been through the hanging up posters around your office, which these days, right, Unless you're gonna hang a poster and everybody's home office, right, you can't even you can't even fake it that you think that might work, right? So, um, you know, you really, I think we have attacked that in a variety of ways, right? And you definitely have to, you know, you've got to make the shift to a team centric culture, right? Empowered teams. You know, that's a big deal, right? You know, a lot of a lot of the people that, you know, we lived in a world of quote unquote, where we lived in a deep resource management world for a long, long time and write a lot of our customers still do that. But, you know, kind of moving to that team centric world is eyes really important and court of the trust. I think training is super important, right? We've, you know, we've internally, right. We've trained hundreds employees over the last year and a half on the fundamentals. Really of safe, right? Not necessarily. You know, we've had we've had teams delivering and scrum and continuous delivery for, you know, for years. But this scaling aspect of it eyes where we've done a lot of training investment on Ben. You know, I think leadership has to be bought in, right, you know? And so we p I plan, you know, myself and camera and the other members are leadership, you know, we're in p I planning, you know, for for four days, right? I mean, you've gotta walk the walk, you know, from top to bottom. And you've got a train on the context, right? And then you and then and then once you get through a few cycles where you've done a pivot, right? Or you brought a new team in and it just works. It becomes kind of this virtuous circle where he will go. Man, this really works so much better than what we used to dio, >>right? Right. Theater, Really key principle to this whole thing is is aligning the business leaders and the business prioritization s so that you can get to good outcomes with the development and and the delivery right? And we know again and kind of classic dev ops to get the Dev and the production people together so they can, you know, quickly ship code that works. Um, but adding the business person on there really puts puts a little extra responsibility that they they understand the value of a particular feature, a particular priority. Uh, they can make the trade offs and that they kind of understand the effort involved too. So, you know, bringing them into this continuous again kind of this continuous development process, Um, to make sure that things were better aligned and really better Prioritize, because ultimately, you know, we don't live in an infinite resource. Is situation and and people got to make tradeoffs. They gotta make decisions, is toe what goes and what doesn't go on for everything that goes right, I would say you pick one thing. Okay, That's 99 other things that couldn't go. So it's really important to have you know, this you said alignment of the business priorities as well as you know, the execution within, Within the development. >>Yeah, I think that, you know, You know, I think it was probably close to two years ago, Forrester started talking about the age of the customer, right? That was like their big theme at the time, right? And I think to me what that the age of the customer actually translates to. And Mick, Mick and I are both big fans of this whole idea of the project. The product shift mixed book, you know, is a great piece on your talking. A za part of the manifesto is one of the authors as well. But this shift from project to product, right? Like the age of the customer, in my opinion that that the embodiment of that is the shift to a product mentality, right? And the product mentality, in my opinion, is what brings the business and technology teams together. Right once, once you're focused on a customer experience that's delivered through a product or a service, that's when I that's when I start to go. The alignment problem goes away right? Because if you look at software companies, right, I mean, we run product management models with software development teams, customer success teams, right that, you know, the software component of these products that people are building is obviously becoming bigger and bigger, you know, and in many ways, right, more, more organizations are trying to model themselves over as operationally like software companies, right? They obviously have lots of other components in their business than just software. But I think that whole model of customer experience equaling product and then the software component of product the product is the essence of what changes that alignment equation and brings business and teams together because all sudden, everyone knows what the customers experiencing right, and and that that that makes a lot of things very clear very quickly, right? >>I'm just curious how far along this waas as a process before, before Cove it hit right because serendipitous, whatever right, but the sudden, you know, light switch moment. Everybody had to go work from home in March 15th. Compared to now, we're in October on. This is gonna be going on for a while, and it is a new normal and whatever that whatever is gonna look like a year from now or two years from now is T B d. You know, had you guys already started on this journey because again, to sit down and actually declare this coalition and declare this manifesto is a lot different than just trying to do better within your own organization. Yeah, >>So we had started, you know, we definitely had started independently. You know, some some. You know, I think people in the community know that we we came together with a company called Link It Handful years ago. And I give John Terry, actually one of the founders link it immense credit for, you know, kind of spearheading our cultural change. And not and not because of, we're just gonna be, you know, bringing agile solutions to our customers. But because, you know, he believed that it was gonna be a fundamentally better way for us to work, right? And we kind of, you know, And we started with John and built, you know, centric circles momentum. And we've gotten to the place where now it's just part of who we are. But But I do think that you know, Cove it has. You know, I think pre Cove in a lot of companies, you know, would would adopt, you know, the would adopt digital slash agile transformation. Um, traditional industries may have done it as a reaction to disruption. Right, You know, and in many cases, the disruption to these traditional industries was, I would say, a product oriented company, right that probably had a larger software component, and that disruption caused a competitive issue or a customer issue that cause companies to try to respond by transforming. I think co vid, you know, all sudden flatten that out, right? We literally all got disrupted, right? And and so all of a sudden, every one of us is dealing with some degree of market uncertainty. Customer uncertainty on also, none of us are insulated from the need to be able to pivot faster, deliver incrementally, you know, and operating a different, completely more agile way. Uh, you know, Post Cove it, right? >>Yeah, that's great. So again, very, very, very timely. You know, a little bit of serendipity, a little bit of planning and, you know, a zoo with all important things. There's always a little bit of luck and a and a lot of hard work involved. So really interesting. Thank you for for your leadership, Patrick. And, you know, it really makes a statement. I think when you have a bunch of leaderships across an industry coming together and putting their name on a piece of paper, that's a line around us, um, principles and some values, Which again, if you read them, who wouldn't want to get behind these? But if it takes, you know, something a little bit more formal, uh, to kind of move the ball down the field, and then I totally get it. And, uh, really great work. Thanks for Thanks for doing it. >>No, absolutely. No. Like I said, the first time I read it, I was like, Yeah, like you said, this is all this all makes complete sense, but just documenting it and saying it and talking about it moves the needle. I'll tell you, as a company, we were pushing really hard on, uh, you know, on our own internal strategy on diversity inclusion, right? And and like once we wrote the words down About what? You know what we aspire to be from a diversity and inclusion perspective. It's the same thing. Everybody reads the words and goes, Why wouldn't we do this right? But until you write it down and kind of have again, you know, a manifesto or a terra firma of what you're trying to accomplish, you know, Then you can rally behind right, as opposed to it being, you know, something that's everybody's got their own version of the flavor, right? And I think it's a very analogous, you know, kind of initiative. And, uh, it's happening. Both of those things right are happening across the industry these days, >>right? And measure it to write and measure it. Measure, measure, get a baseline even if you don't like the measure, even if you don't like what the Even if you can argue against the math behind the measurement, measure it, and at least you could measure it again. And you've got some type of a compound that is really the only way toe to move it forward with Patrick really enjoyed the conversation. Thanks for for taking a few minutes out of your day. It's great to >>be here. It's an awesome movement, and we're glad to be part of it. All >>right, Thanks. And if you want to check out the biz ops manifesto goto biz ops manifesto dot org's read it. You might want to sign it there for you. And thanks for tuning in on this segment. We'll continuing coverage of the bizarre manifesto unveiled here on the Cube. I'm Jeff. Thanks for watching.

>> Narrator: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE conversation. >> Everyone, welcome to the Cube special coverage of the AWS Summit San Francisco, North America all over the world, and most of the parts Asia, Pacific Amazon Summit is the hashtag. This is part of theCUBE Virtual Program, where we're going to be covering Amazon Summits throughout the year. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. And of course, we're not at the events. We're here in the Palo Alto Studios, with our COVID-19 quarantine crew. And we got a great guest here from AWS, Dave Brown, Vice President of EC2, leads the team on elastic compute, and its business where it's evolving and most importantly, what it means for the customers in the industry. Dave, thanks for spending the time to come on theCUBE virtual program. >> Hey John, it's really great to be here, thanks for having me. >> So we got the summit going down. It's new format because of the shelter in place. They're going virtual or digital, virtualization of events. And I want to have a session with you on EC2, and some of the new things they're going on. And I think the story is important, because certainly around the pandemic, and certainly on the large scale, SaaS business models, which are turning out to be quite the impact from a positive standpoint, with people sheltering in place, what is the role of data in all this, okay? And also, there's a lot of pressure financially. We've had the payroll loan programs from the government, and to companies really looking at their bottom lines. So two major highlights going on in the world that's directly impacted. And you have some products, and news around this, I want to do a deep dive on that. One is AppFlow, which is a new integration service by AWS, that really talks about taking the scale and value of AWS services, and integrating that with SaaS Applications. And the migration acceleration program for Windows, which has a storied history of database. For many, many years, you guys have been powering most of the Windows workloads, ironic that you guys are not Microsoft, but certainly had success there. Let's start with the AppFlow. Okay, this was recently announced on the 22nd of April. This is a new service. Can you take us through why this is important? What is the service? Why now, what was the main driver behind AppFlow? >> Yeah, absolutely. So with the launcher AppFlow, what we're really trying to do is make it easy for organizations and enterprises to really control the flow of their data, between the number of different applications that they use on premise, and AWS. And so the problem we started to see was, enterprises just had this data all over the place, and they wanted to do something useful with it. Right, we see many organizations running Data Lakes, large scale analytics, Big Machine Learning on AWS, but before you can do all of that, you have to have access to the data. And if that data is sitting in an application, either on-premise or elsewhere in AWS, it's very difficult to get out of that application, and into S3, or Redshift, or one of those services, before you can manipulate it, that was the challenge. And so the journey kind of started a few years ago, we actually launched a service on the EC2 network, inside Private Link. And it was really, it provided organizations with a very secure way to transfer network data, both between VPCs, and also between VPC, and on-prem networks. And what this highlighted to us, is organizations say that's great, but I actually don't have the technical ability, or the team, to actually do the work that's required to transform the data from, whether it's Salesforce, or SAP, and actually move it over Private Link to AWS. And so we realized, while private link was useful, we needed another layer of service that actually provided this, and one of the key requirements was an organization must be able to do this with no code at all. So basically, no developer required. And I want to be able to transfer data from Salesforce, my Salesforce database, and put that in Redshift together with some other data, and then perform some function on that. And so that's what AppFlow is all about. And so we came up with the idea about a little bit more than a year ago, that was the first time I sat down, and actually reviewed the content for what this was going to be. And the team's been hard at work, and launched on the 22nd of April. And we actually launched with 14 partners as well, that provide what we call connectors, which allow us to access these various services, and companies like Salesforce and ServiceNow, Slack, Snowflake, to name a few. >> Well, certainly you guys have a great ecosystem of SaaS partners, and that's you know well documented in the industry that you guys are not going to be competing directly with a lot of these big SaaS players, although you do have a few services for customers who want end to end, Jassy continues to pound that home on my Cube interviews. But I think this, >> Absolutely. is notable, and I want to get your thoughts on this, because this seems to be the key unlocking of the value of SaaS and Cloud, because data traversal, data transfer, there's costs involved, also moving traffic over the internet is unsecure, and unreliable. So a couple questions I wanted to just ask you directly. One is did the AppFlow come out of the AWS Private Link piece of it? And two, is it one directional or bi-directional? How is that working? Because I'm guessing that you had Private Link became successful, because no one wants to move on the internet. They wanted direct connects. Was there something inadequate about that service? Was there more headroom there? And is it bi-directional for the customer? >> So let me take the second one, it's absolutely bi-directional. So you can transfer that data between an on-premise application and AWS, or AWS and the on-premise application. Really, anything that has a connector can support the data flow in both directions. And with transformations, and so data in one data source, may need to be transformed, before it's actually useful in a second data source. And so AppFlow takes care of all that transformation as well, in both directions, And again, with no requirement for any code, on behalf of the customer. Which really unlocks it for a lot of the more business focused parts of an organization, who maybe don't have immediate access to developers. They can use it immediately, just literally with a few transformations via the console, and it's working for you. In terms of, you mentioned sort of the flow of data over the internet, and the need for security of data. It's critically important, and as we look at just what had happened as a company does. We have very, very strict requirements around the flow of data, and what services we can use internally. And where's any of our data going to be going? And I think it's a good example of how many enterprises are thinking about data today. They don't even want to trust even HTTPS, and encryption of data on the internet. I'd rather just be in a world where my data never ever traverses the internet, and I just never have to deal with that. And so, the journey all started with Private Link there, and probably was an interesting feature, 'cause it really was changing the way that we asked our customers to think about networking. Nothing like Private Link has ever existed, in the sort of standard networking that an enterprise would normally have. It's kind of only possible because of what VPC allows you to do, and what the software defined network on AWS gives you. And so we built Private Link, and as I said, customers started to adopt it. They loved the idea of being able to transfer data, either between VPCs, or between on-premise. Or between their own VPC, and maybe a third party provider, like Snowflake, has been a very big adopter of Private Link, and they have many customers using it to get access to Snowflake databases in a very secure way. And so that's where it all started, and in those discussions with customers, we started to see that they wanted us to up level a little bit. They said, "We can use Private Link, it's great, "but one of the problems we have is just the flow of data." And how do we move data in a very secure, in a highly available way, with no sort of bottlenecks in the system. And so we thought Private Link was a great sort of underlying technology, that empowered all of this, but we had to build the system on top of that, which is AppFlow. That says we're going to take care of all the complexity. And then we had to go to the ecosystem, and say to all these providers, "Can you guys build connectors?" 'Cause everybody realized it's super important that data can be shared, and so that organizations can really extract the value from that data. And so the 14 of them at launch, we have many, many more down the road, have come to the party with with connectors, and full support of what AppFlow provides. >> Yeah us DevOps purists always are pounding the fist on the table, now virtual table, API's and connectors. This is the model, so people are integrating. And I want to get your thoughts on this. I think you said low code, or no code on the developer simplicity side. Is it no code, or low code? Can you just explain quickly and clarify that point? >> It's no code for getting started literally, for the kind of, it's basic to medium complexity use case. It's not code, and a lot of customers we spoke to, that was a bottleneck. Right, they needed something from data. It might have been the finance organization, or it could have been human resources, somebody else in organization needed that. They don't have a developer that helps them typically. And so we find that they would wait many, many months, or maybe even never get the project done, just because they never ever had access to that data, or to the developer to actually do the work that was required for the transformation. And so it's no code for almost all use cases. Where it literally is, select your data source, select the connector, and then select the transformations. And some basic transformations, renaming of fields, transformation of data in simple ways. That's more than sufficient for the vast majority of use cases. And then obviously through to the destination, with the connector on the other side, to do the final transformation, to the final data source that you want to migrate the data to. >> You know, you have an interesting background, was looking at your history, and you've essentially been a web services kind of guy all your life. From a code standpoint software environment, and now I'll say EC2 is the crown jewel of AWS, and doing more and more with S3. But what's interesting, as you build more of these layers services in there, there's more flexibility. So right now, in most of the customer environments, is a debate around, do I build something monolithic, and or decoupled, okay? And I think there's a world where there's a mutually, not mutually exclusive, I mean, you have a mainframe, you have a big monolithic thing, if it does something. But generally people would agree that a decoupled environment is more flexible, and more agile. So I want to kind of get to the customer use case, 'cause I can really see this being really powerful, AppFlow with Private Link, where you mentioned Snowflake. I mean, Snowflake is built on AWS, they're doing extremely, extremely well, like any other company that builds on AWS. Whether it's theCUBE Cloud, or it's Snowflake. As we tap those services, customers, we might have people who want to build on our platform on top of AWS. So I know a bunch of startups that are building within the Snowflake ecosystem, a customer of yours. >> Yeah. >> So they're technically a customer of Amazon, but they're also in the ecosystem of say, Snowflake. >> Yes. >> So this brings up an interesting kind of computer science problem, which is architecturally, how do I think about that? Is this something where AppFlow could help me? Because I certainly want to enable people to build on a platform, that I build if I'm doing that, if I'm not going to be a pure SaaS turnkey application. But if I'm going to bring partners in, and do integration, use the benefits of the goodness of an API or Connector driven architecture, I need that. So explain to me how this helps me, or doesn't help me. Is this something that makes sense to you? Does this question make sense? How do you react to that? >> I think so, I think the question is pretty broad. But I think there's an element in which I can help. So firstly, you talk about sort of decoupled applications, right? And I think that is certainly the way that we've gone at Amazon, and been very, very successful for us. I think we started that journey back in 2003, when we decoupled the monolithic application that was amazon.com. And that's when our service journey started. And a lot of that sort of inspired AWS, and how we built what we built today. And we see a lot of our customers doing that, moving to smaller applications. It just works better, it's easier to debug, there's ownership at a very controlled level. So you can get all your engineering teams to have very clear and crisp ownership. And it just drives innovation, right? 'Cause each little component can innovate without the burden of the rest of the ecosystem. And so that's what we really enjoy. I think the other thing that's important when you think about design, is to see how much of the ecosystem you can leverage. And so whether you're building on Snowflake, or you're building directly on top of AWS, or you're building on top of one of our other customers and partners. If you can use something that solves the problem for you, versus building it yourself. Well that just leaves you with more time to actually go and focus on the stuff that you need to be solving, right? The product you need to be building. And so in the case of AppFlow, I think if there's a need for transfer of data, between, for example, Snowflake and some data warehouse, that you as an organisation are trying to build on a Snowflake infrastructure. AppFlow is something you could potentially look at. It's certainly not something that you could just use for, it's very specific and focused to the flow of data between services from a data analytics point of view. It's not really something you could use from an API point of view, or messaging between services. It's more really just facilitating that flow of data, and the transformation of data, to get it into a place that you can do something useful with it. >> And you said-- >> But like any of our services-- (speakers talk over each other) Couldn't be using any layer in the stack. >> Yes, it's a level of integration, right? There's no code to code, depending on how you look at it, cool. Customer use cases, you mentioned, large scale analytics, I thought I heard you say, machine learning, Data Lakes. I mean, basically, anyone who's using data is going to want to tap some sort of data repository, and figure out how to scale data when appropriate. There's also contextual, relevant data that might be specific to say, an industry vertical, or a database. And obviously, AI becomes the application for all this. >> Exactly. >> If I'm a customer, how does AppFlow relate to that? How does that help me, and what's the bottom line? >> So I think there's two parts to that journey. And depending on where customers are, and so there's, we do have millions of customers today that are running applications on AWS. Over the last few years, we've seen the emergence of Data Lakes, really just the storage of a large amount of data, typically in S3. But then companies want to extract value out of, and use in certain ways. Obviously, we have many, many tools today, from Redshift, Athena, that allow you to utilize these Data Lakes, and be able to run queries against this information. Things like EMR, and one of our oldest services in the space. And so doing some sort of large scale analytics, and more recently, services like SageMaker, are allowing us to do machine learning. And so being able to run machine learning across an enormous amount of data that we have stored in AWS. And there's some stuff in the IoT, workload use space as well, that's emerging. And many customers are using it. There's obviously many customers today that aren't using it on AWS, potential customers for us, that are looking to do something useful with data. And so the one part of the journey is taking up all of that infrastructure, and we have a lot of services that make it really easy to do machine learning, and do analytics, and that sort of thing. And then the other problem, the other side of the problem, which is what AppFlow is addressing is, how do I get that data to S3, or to Redshift, to actually go and run that machine learning workload? And that's what it's really unlocking for customers. And it's not just the one time transfer of data, the other thing that AppFlow actually supports, is the continuous updating of data. And so if you decide that you want to have that view of your data in S3, for example, and Data Lake, that's kept up to date, within a few minutes, within an hour, you can actually configure AppFlow to do that. And so the data source could be Salesforce, it could be Slack, it could be whatever data source you want to blend. And you continuously have that flow of data between those systems. And so when you go to run your machine learning workload, or your analytics, it's all continuously up to date. And you don't have this problem of, let me get the data, right? And when I think about some of the data jobs that I've run, in my time, back in the day as an engineer, on early EC2, a small part of it was actually running the job on the data. A large part of it was how do I actually get that data, and is it up to date? >> Up to date data is critical, I think that's the big feature there is that, this idea of having the data connectors, really makes the data fresh, because we go through the modeling, and you realize why I missed a big patch of data, the machine learnings not effective. >> Exactly. >> I mean, it's only-- >> Exactly, and the other thing is, it's very easy to bring in new data sources, right? You think about how many companies today have an enormous amount of data just stored in silos, and they haven't done anything with it. Often it'll be a conversation somewhere, right? Around the coffee machine, "Hey, we could do this, and we can do this." But they haven't had the developers to help them, and haven't had access to the data, and haven't been able to move the data, and to put it in a useful place. And so, I think what we're seeing here, with AppFlow, really unlocking of that. Because going from that initial conversation, to actually having something running, literally requires no code. Log into the AWS console, configure a few connectors, and it's up and running, and you're ready to go. And you can do the same thing with SageMaker, or any of the other services we have on the other side that make it really simple to run some of these ideas, that just historically have been just too complicated. >> Alright, so take me through that console piece. Just walk me through, I'm in, you sold me on this. I just came out of meeting with my company, and I said, "Hey, you know what? "We're blowing up this siloed approach. "We want to kind of create this horizontal data model, "where we can mix "and match connectors based upon our needs." >> Yeah. >> So what do I do? I'm using SageMaker, using some data, I got S3, I got an application. What do I do? I'm connecting what, S3? >> Yeah, well-- >> To the app? >> So the simplest thing is, and the simplest place to find this actually, is on Jeff Bezos blog, that he did for the release, right? Jeff always does a great job in demonstrating how to use our various products. But it literally is going into the standard AWS console, which is the console that we use for all of our services. I think we have 200 of them, so it is getting kind of challenging to find the ball in that console, as we continue to grow. And find AppFlow. AppFlow is a top level service, and so you'll see it in the console. And the first thing you got to do, is you got to configure your Source-Connect. And so it's a connector that, where's the data coming from? And as I said, we had 14 partners, you'll be able to see those connectors there, and see what's supported. And obviously, there's the connectivity. Do you have access to that data, or where is the data running? AppFlow runs within AWS, and so you need to have either VPN, or direct connect back to the organization, if the data source is on-premise. If the data source happens to be in AWS, and obviously be in a VPC, and you just need to configure some of that connectivity functionality. >> So no code if the connectors are there, but what if I want to build my own connector? >> So building your own connector, that is something that we working with third parties with right now. I could be corrected, but not 100% sure whether that's available. It's certainly something I think we would allow customers to do, is to extend sort of either the existing connectors, or to add additional transformations as well. And so you'd be able to do that. But the transformations that the vast majority of our customers are using are literally just in the console, with the basic transformations. >> It comes bigger apps that people have, and just building those connectors. How does a partner get involved? You got 14 partners now, how do you extend the partner base contact in Amazon Partner Manager, or you send an email to someone? How does someone get involved? What are you recommending? >> So there are a couple of ways, right? We have an extensive partner ecosystem that the vast majority of these ISVs are already integrated with. And so, we have the 14 we launched with, we also pre announced SAP, which is going to be a very critical one for the vast majority of our customers. Having deep integration with SAP data, and being able to bring that seamlessly into AWS. That'll be launching soon. And then there's a long list of other ones, that we're currently working on. And they're currently working on them themselves. And then the other one is going to be, like with most things that Amazon, feedback from customers. And so what we hear from customers, and very often you'll hear from third party partners as well, who'll come and say, "Hey, my customers are asking me "to integrate with the AppFlow, what do I need to do?" And so, you know, just reaching out to AWS, and letting them know that you'd be interested in integrating, that you're not part of the partner program. The team would be happy to engage, and bring you on board, so-- >> (mumbles) on playbook, get the top use cases nailed down, listen to customers, and figure it out. >> Exactly. >> Great stuff Dave, we really appreciate it. I'm looking forward to digging in AppFlow, and I'll check on Jeff Bezos blog. Sure, it's April 22, was the launch day, probably had up there. One of the things that want to just jump into, now moving into the next topic, is the cost structure. A lot of pressure on costs. This is where I think this Migration Acceleration Program for Windows is interesting. Andy Jassy always likes to boast on stage at Reinvent, about the number of workloads of Windows running on Amazon Web Services. This has been a big part of the customers, I think, for over 10 years, that I can think of him talking about this. What is this about? Are you still seeing uptake on Windows workloads, or, I mean,-- >> Absolutely. >> Azure has got some market share, >> Absolutely. >> but now you, doesn't really kind of square in my mind, what's going on here. Tell us about this migration service. >> Yeah, absolutely, on the migration side. So Windows is absolutely, we still believe AWS is the best place to run a Windows workload. And we have many, many happy Windows customers today. And it's a very big, very large, growing point of our business today, it used to be. I was part of the original team back in 2008, that launched, I think it was Windows 2008, back then on EC2. And I remember sort of working out all the details, of how to do all the virtualization with Windows, obviously back then we'd done Linux. And getting Windows up and running, and working through some of the challenges that Windows had as an operating system in the early days. And it was October 2008 that we actually launched Windows as an operating system. And it's just been, we've had many, many happy Windows customers since then. >> Why is Amazon so peak to run workloads from Windows so effectively? >> Well, I think, sorry what did you say peaked? >> Why is Amazon so in well positioned to run the Windows workloads? >> Well, firstly, I mean, I think Windows is really just the operating system, right? And so if you think about that as the very last little bit of your sort of virtualization stack, and then being able to support your applications. What you really have to think about is, everything below that, both in terms of the compute, so performance you're going to get, the price performance you're going to get. With our Nitro Hypervisor, and the Nitro System that we developed back in 2018, or launched in 2018. We really are able to provide you with the best price performance, and have the very least overhead from a hypervisor point of view. And then what that means is you're getting more out of your machine, for the price that you pay. And then you think about the rest of the ecosystem, right? Think about all the other services, and all the features, and just the breadth, and the extensiveness of AWS. And that's critically important for all of our Windows customers as well. And so you're going to have things like Active Directory, and these sort of things that are very Windows specific, and we can absolutely support all of those, natively. And in the Windows operating system as well. We have things like various agents that you can run inside the Windows box to do more maintenance and management. And so I think we've done a really good job in bringing Windows into the larger, and broader ecosystem of AWS. And it really is just a case of making sure that Windows runs smoothly. And that's just the last little bit on top of that, and so many customers enterprises run Windows today. When I started out my career, I was developing software in the banking industry, and it was a very much a Windows environment. They were running critical applications. And so we see it's critically important for customers who run Windows today, to be able to bring those Windows workloads to AWS. >> Yeah, and that's certainly-- >> We are seeing a trend. Yeah, sorry, go ahead. >> Well, they're certainly out there from a market share standpoint, but this is a cost driver, you guys are saying, and I want you to just give an example, or just illustrate why it costs less. How is it a cost savings? Is it just services, cycle times on EC2? I mean what's the cost savings? I'm a customer like, "Okay, so I'm going to go to Amazon with my workloads." Why is it a cost saving? >> I think there are a few things. The one I was referring to in my previous comment was the price performance, right? And so if I'm running on a system, where the hypervisor is using a significant portion of the physical CPU that I want to use as well. Well there's an overhead to that. And so from a price performance point of view, I look at, if I go and benchmark a CPU, and I look at how much I pay for that per unit of that benchmark, it's better on AWS. Because with our natural system, we're able to give you 100% of the floor. And so you get a performance then. So that's the first thing is price performance, which is different from this price. But there's a saving there as well. The other one is a large part, and getting into the migration program as well. A large part of what we do with our customers, when they come to AWS, is supposed to be, we take a long look at their license strategy. What licenses do they have? And a key part of bringing in Windows workloads AWS, is license optimization. What can we do to help you optimize the licenses that you're using today for Windows, for SQL Server, and really try and find efficiencies in that. And so we're able to secure significant savings for many of our customers by doing that. And we have a number of tools that they use as part of the migration program to do that. And so that helps save there. And then finally, we have a lot of customers doing what we call modernization of their applications. And so it really embraced Cloud, and some of the benefits that you get from Cloud. Especially elasticities, so being able to scale for demand. It's very difficult to do that when you bound by license for your operating system, because every box you run, you have to have a license for it. And so tuning auto scaling on, you've got to make sure you have enough licenses for all these Windows boxes you've seen. And so the push the Cloud's bringing, we've seen a lot of customers move Windows applications from Windows to Linux, or even move SQL Server, from SQL server to SQL Server on Linux, or another database platform. And do a modernization there, that already allows them to benefit from the elasticity that Cloud provides, without having to constantly worry about licenses. >> So final question on this point, migration service implies migration from somewhere else. How do they get involved? What's the onboarding process? Can you give a quick detail on that? >> Absolutely, so we've been helping customers with migrations for years. We've launched a migration program, or Migration Acceleration Program, MAP. We launched it, I think about 2016, 2017 was the first part of that. It was really just a bringing together of the various, the things we'd learned, the tools we built, the best strategies to do a migration. And we said, "How do we help customers looking "to migrate to the Cloud." And so that's what MAP's all about, is just a three phase, we'll help you assess the migration, we'll help you do a lot of planning. And then ultimately, we help you actually do the migration. We partner with a number of external partners, and ISVs, and GSIs, who also worked very closely with us to help customers do migrations. And so what we launched in April of this year, with the Windows migration program, is really just more support for Windows workload, as part of the broader Migration Acceleration Program. And there's benefits to customers, it's a smoother migration, it's a faster migration in almost all cases, we're doing license assessments, and so there's cost reduction in that as well. And ultimately, there's there's other benefits as well that we offer them, if they partner with us in bringing the workload to AWS. And so getting involved is really just reaching out to one of our AWS sales folks, or one of your account managers, if you have an account manager, and talk to them about workloads that you'd like to bring in. And we even go as far as helping you identify which applications are easiest to migrate. And so that you can kind of get going with some of the easier ones, while we help you with some of the more difficult ones. And strategies' about removing those roadblocks to bring your services to AWS. >> Takes the blockers away, Dave Brown, Vice President of EC2, the crown jewel of AWS, breaking down AppFlow, and the migration to Windows services. Great insights, appreciate the time. >> Thanks. >> We're here with Dave Brown, VP of EC2, as part of the virtual Cube coverage. Dave, I want to get your thoughts on an industry topic. Given what you've done with EC2, and the success, and with COVID-19, you're seeing that scale problem play out on the world stage for the entire population of the global world. This is now turning non-believers into believers of DevOps, web services, real time. I mean, this is now a moment in history, with the challenges that we have, even when we come out of this, whether it's six months or 12 months, the world won't be the same. And I believe that there's going to be a Cambrian explosion of applications. And an architecture that's going to look a lot like Cloud, Cloud-native. You've been doing this for many, many years, key architect of EC2 with your team. How do you see this playing out? Because a lot of people are going to be squirreling in rooms, when this comes back. They're going to be video conferencing now, but when they have meetings, they're going to look at the window of the future, and they're going to be exposed to what's failed. And saying, "We need to double down on that, "we have to fix this." So there's going to be winners and losers coming out of this pandemic, really quickly. And I think this is going to be a major opportunity for everyone to rally around this moment, to reset. And I think it's going to look a lot like this decoupled, this distributed computing environment, leveraging all the things that we've talked about in the past. So what's your advice, and how do you see this evolving? >> Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I think, just the speed at which it happened as well. And the way in which organizations, both internally and externally, had to reinvent themselves very, very quickly, right? We've been very fortunate within Amazon, moving to working from home was relatively simple for the vast majority of us. Obviously, we have a number of our employees that work in data centers, and performance centers that have been on the front lines, and be doing a great job. But for the rest of us, it's been virtual video conferencing, right? All about meetings, and being able to use all of our networking tools securely, either over the VPN, or the no VPN infrastructure that we have. And many organizations had to do that. And so I think there are a number of different things that have impacted us right now. Obviously, virtual desktops has been a significant sort of growth point, right? Folks don't have access to the physical machine anymore, they're now all having to work remote, and so service like Workspaces, which runs on EC2, as well, has being a critical service data to support many of our largest customers. Our client VPN service, so we have within EC2 on the networking side, has also been critical for many large organizations, as they see more of their staff working everyday remotely. It has also seen, been able to support a lot of customers there. Just more broadly, what we've seen with COVID-19, is we've seen some industries really struggle, obviously travel industry, people just aren't traveling anymore. And so there's been immediate impact to some of those industries. They've been other industries that support functions like the video conferencing, or entertainment side of the house, has seen a bit of growth, over the last couple of months. And education has been an interesting one for us as well, where schools have been moving online. And behind the scenes in AWS, and on EC2, we've been working really hard to make sure that our supply chains are not interrupted in any way. The last thing we want to do is have any of our customers not be able to get EC2 capacity, when they desperately need it. And so we've made sure that capacity is fully available, even all the way through the pandemic. And we've even been able to support customers with, I remember one customer who told me the next day, they're going to have more than hundred thousand students coming online. And they suddenly had to grow their business, by some crazy number. And we were able to support them, and give them the capacity, which is way outside of any sort of demand--. >> I think this is the Cambrain explosion that I was referring to, because a whole new set of new things have emerged. New gaps in businesses have been exposed, new opportunities are emerging. This is about agility. It's real time now. It's actually happening for everybody, not just the folks on the inside of the industry. This is going to create a reinvention. So it's ironic, I've heard the word reinvent mentioned more times now, over the past three months, than I've heard it representing to Amazon. 'Cause that's your annual conference, Reinvent, but people are resetting and reinventing. It's actually a tactic, this is going on. So they're going to need some Clouds. So what do you say to that? >> So, I mean, the first thing is making sure that we can continue to be highly available, continue to have the capacity. The worst scenario is not being able to have the capacity for our customers, right? We did see that with some providers, and that honesty on outside is just years and years of experience of being able to manage supply chain. And the second thing is obviously, making sure that we remain available, that we don't have issues. And so, you know, with all of our stuff going remote and working from home, all my teams are working from home. Being able to support AWS in this environment, we haven't missed a beat there, which has been really good. We were well set up to be able to absorb this. And then obviously, remaining secure, which was our highest priority. And then innovating with our customers, and being able to, and that's both products that we're going to launch over time. But in many cases, like that education scenario I was talking about, that's been able to find that capacity, in multiple regions around the world, literally on a Sunday night, because they found out literally that afternoon, that Monday morning, all schools were virtual, and they were going to use their platform. And so they've been able to respond to that demand. We've seen a lot more machine learning workloads, we've seen an increase there as well as organizations are running more models, both within the health sciences area, but also in the financial areas. And also in just general business, (mumbles), yes, wherever it might be. Everybody's trying to respond to, what is the impact of this? And better understand it. And so machine learning is helping there, and so we've been able to support all those workloads. And so there's been an explosion. >> I was joking with my son, I said, "This world is interesting." Amazon really wins, that stuff's getting delivered to my house, and I want to play video games and Twitch, and I want to build applications, and write software. Now I could do that all in my home. So you went all around. But all kidding aside, this is an opportunity to define agility, so I want to get your thoughts, because I'm a bit a big fan of Amazon. As everyone knows, I'm kind of a pro Amazon person, and as other Clouds kind of try to level up, they're moving in the same direction, which is good for everybody, good competition and all. But S3 and EC2 have been the crown jewels. And building more services around those, and creating these abstraction layers, and new sets of service to make it easier, I know has been a top priority for AWS. So can you share your vision on how you're going to make EC2, and all these services easier for me? So if I'm a coder, I want literally no code, low code, infrastructure as code. I need to make Amazon more programmable and easier. Can you just share your vision on, as we talk about the virtual summits, as we cover the show, what's your take on making Amazon easier to consume and use? >> It's been something we thought a lot over the years, right? When we started out, we were very simple. The early days of EC2, it wasn't that rich feature set. And it's been an interesting journey for us. We've obviously become a lot more, we've written, launched local features, which narrative brings some more complexity to the platform. We have launched things like Lightsail over the years. Lightsail is a hosting environment that gives you that EC2 like experience, but it's a lot simpler. And it's also integrated with a number of other services like RDS and ELB as well, basic load balancing functionality. And we've seen some really good growth there. But what we've also learned is customers enjoy the richness of what ECU provides, and what the full ecosystem provides, and being able to use the pieces that they really need to build their application. From an S3 point of view, from a board ecosystem point of view. It's providing customers with the features and functionality that they really need to be successful. From the compute side of the house, we've done some things. Obviously, Containers have really taken off. And there's a lot of frameworks, whether it's EKS, or community service, or a Docker-based ECS, has made that a lot simpler for developers. And then obviously, in the serverless space, Landers, a great way of consuming EC2, right? I know it's serverless, but there's still an EC2 instance under the hood. And being able to bring a basic function and run those functions in serverless is, a lot of customers are enjoying that. The other complexity we're going after is on the networking side of the house, I find that a lot of developers out there, they're more than happy to write the code, they're more than happy to bring their reputation to AWS. But they struggle a little bit more on the networking side, they really do not want to have to worry about whether they have a route to an internet gateway, and if their subnets defined correctly to actually make the application work. And so, we have services like App Mesh, and the whole mesh server space is developing a lot. To really make that a lot simpler, where you can just bring your application, and call it on an application that just uses service discovery. And so those higher level services are definitely helping. In terms of no code, I think that App Mesh, sorry not App Mesh, AppFlow is one of the examples for already given organizations something at that level, that says I can do something with no code. I'm sure there's a lot of work happening in other areas. It's not something I'm actively thinking on right now , in my role in leading EC2, but I'm sure as the use cases come from customers, I'm sure you'll see more from us in those areas. They'll likely be more specific, though. 'Cause as soon as you take code out of the picture, you're going to have to get pretty specific in the use case. You already get the depth, the functionality the customers will need. >> Well, it's been super awesome to have your valuable time here on the virtual Cube for covering Amazon Summit, Virtual Digital Event that's going on. And we'll be going on throughout the year. Really appreciate the insight. And I think, it's right on the money. I think the world is going to have in six to 12 months, surge in reset, reinventing, and growing. So I think a lot of companies who are smart, are going to reset, reinvent, and set a new growth trajectory. Because it's a Cloud-native world, it's Cloud-computing, this is now a reality, and I think there's proof points now. So the whole world's experiencing it, not just the insiders, and the industry, and it's going to be an interesting time. So really appreciate that, they appreciate it. >> Great, >> Them coming on. >> Thank you very much for having me. It's been good. >> I'm John Furrier, here inside theCUBE Virtual, our virtual Cube coverage of AWS Summit 2020. We're going to have ongoing Amazon Summit Virtual Cube. We can't be on the show floor, so we'll be on the virtual show floor, covering and talking to the people behind the stories, and of course, the most important stories in silicon angle, and thecube.net. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>From Las Vegas. It's the cube covering Qualis security conference 2019 you buy quality. >>Hey, welcome back. You're ready. Jeff Frick here with the cube. We're in Las Vegas at the Bellagio, at the quality security conference. It's the 19th year they've been doing this. It's our first year here and we're excited to be here and it's great to have a veteran who's been in this space for so long, to give a little bit more of a historical perspective as to what happened in the past and where we are now and what can we look forward to in the future. So coming right off his keynote is Felipe korto, the chairman and CEO of Qualys. Phillip, great to see you. Thank you. Same, same, same for me. Absolutely. So you touched on so many great, um, topics in your conversation about kind of the shifts of, of, of modern computing from the mainframe to the mini. We've heard it over and over and over, but the key message was really about architecture. If you don't have the right architecture, you can't have the right solution. So how has the evolution of architects of architectures impacted your ability to deliver security solutions for your clients? >>So now that's a very good question. And in fact, you know, what happened is that we started in 1999 with a vision that we could use exactly like a salesforce.com this nascent internet technologies and apply that to security. And uh, so, and mod when you have applied that to essentially changing the way CRM was essentially used and deployed in enterprises and with a fantastic success as we know. So for us, the, I can say today that 19 years later the vision was right. It took a significant longer because the security people are not really, uh, warm at the idea of silently, uh, having the data in their view, which was in place that they could not control. And the it people, they didn't really like at all the fact that suddenly they were not in control anymore of the infrastructure. So we had a lot of resistance. >>I, wherever we always, I always believe, absolutely believe that the, the cloud will be the cloud architecture to go back. A lot of people make the confusion. That was part of the confusion that for people it was a cloud, that kind of magical things someplace would you don't know where. And when I were trying to explain, and I've been saying that so many times that well you need to look at the cloud like compute that can architecture which distribute the competing power far more efficiently than the previous one, which was client server, which was distributing the convening power far better than of course the mainframes and the mini computers. And so if you look at their architectures, so the mainframe were essentially big data centers in uh, in Fort Knox, like settings, uh, private lines of communication to a dump terminal. And of course security was not really issue then because it's security was built in by the IBM's and company. >>Same thing with the mini computer, which then was instead of just providing the computing power to the large, very large company, you could afford it. Nelson and the minicomputer through the advanced in semiconductor technology could reduce a foot Frank. And then they'll bring that computing power to the labs and to the departments. And was then the new era of the digital equipment, the prime, the data general, et cetera. Uh, and then kind of server came in. So what client server did, again, if you look at the architecture, different architecture now silently servers, the land or the internal network and the PC, and that was now allowing to distribute the computing power to the people in the company. And so, but then you needed to, so everybody, nobody paid attention to security because then you were inside of the enterprise. So it started inside the walls of the castle if you prefer. >>So nobody paid attention to that. It was more complex because now you have multiple actors. Instead of having one IBM or one digital equipment, et cetera, suddenly you have the people in manufacturing and the servers, the software, the database, the PCs, and on announcer, suddenly there was the complexity, increasing efficiency, but nobody paid attention to security because it wasn't a needed until suddenly we realized that viruses could come in through the front door being installed innocently. You were absolutely, absolutely compromised. And of course that's the era of the antivirus which came in. And then because of the need to communicate more and more now, Senator, you could not stay only in your castle. You needed to go and communicate to your customers, to your suppliers, et cetera, et cetera. And now he was starting to open up your, your castle to the world and hello so now so that the, the bad guy could come in and start to steal your information. >>And that was the new era of the forward. Now you make sure that those who come in, but of course that was a little bit naive because there were so many other doors and windows, uh, that people could come in, you know, create tunnels and create these and all of that trying to ensure your customers because the data was becoming more and more rich and more, more important or more value. So whenever there is a value, of course the bad guys are coming in to try to sell it. And that was that new era of a willing to pay attention to security. The problem has been is because you have so many different actors, there was nothing really central there that was just selling more and more solutions and no, absolutely like 800 vendors bolting on security, right? And boating on anything is short-lived at the end of the day because you put more and more weight and then you also increase the complexity and all these different solutions you need. >>They need to talk together so you have a better context. Uh, but they want the design to talk together. So now you need to put other system where they could communicate that information. So you complicated and complicated and complicated the solution. And that's the problem of today. So now cloud computing comes in and again, if you look at the architecture of cloud computing, it's again data centers, which is not today I've become thanks to the technology having infinite, almost competing power and storage capabilities. And like the previous that I sent her, the are much more fractured because you just one scale and they become essentially a little bit easier to secure. And by the way, it's your fewer vendors now doing that. And then of course the access can be controlled better. Uh, and then of course the second component is not the land and the one, it's now the internet. >>And the internet of course is the web communications extremely cheap and it brings you an every place on the planet and soon in Morris, why not? So and so. Now the issue today is that still the internet needs to be secure. And today, how are we going to secure the internet? Which is very important thing today because you see today that you can spoof your email, you can spoof your website, uh, you can attack the DNS who, yes, there's a lot of things that the bad guys still do. And in fact, they've said that leverage the internet of course, to access everywhere so they take advantage of it. So now this is obviously, you know, I created the, the trustworthy movement many years ago to try to really address that. Unfortunately, the quality's was too small and it was not really our place today. There's all the Google, the Facebook, the big guys, which in fact their business depend on the internet. >>Now need to do that. And I upload or be diabetic, criticized very much so. Google was the first one to essentially have a big initiative, was trying to push SSL, which everybody understand is secret encryption if you prefer. And to everybody. So they did a fantastic job. They really push it. So now today's society is becoming like, okay, as I said, you want to have, as I said it all in your communication, but that's not enough. And now they are pushing and some people criticize them and I absolutely applaud them to say we need to change the internet protocols which were created at a time when security, you were transferring information from universities and so forth. This was the hay days, you know, of everything was fine. There was no bad guys, you know, the, he'd be days, if you like, of the internet. Everybody was free, everybody was up and fantastic. >>Okay. And now of course, today this protocol needs to be upgraded, which is a lot of work. But today I really believe that if you put Google, Amazon, Facebook altogether, and they can fix these internet protocols. So we could forget about the spoofing and who forgot about all these phishing and all these things. But this is their responsibility. So, and then you have now on the other side, you have now very intelligent devices from in a very simple sensors and you know, to sophisticated devices, the phone, that cetera and not more and more and more devices interconnected and for people to understand what is going. So this is the new environment and whether we always believe is that if you adopt an architecture, which is exactly which fits, which is similar, then we could instead of bolting security in, we can now say that the build security in a voting security on, we could build security in. >>And we have been very proud of the work that we've done with Microsoft, which we announced in fact relatively recently, very recently, that in fact our agent technologies now is bundled in Microsoft. So we have built security with Microsoft in. So from a security perspective today, if you go to the Microsoft as your secretly center, you click on the link and now you have the view of your entire Azure environment. Crazier for quality Sagent. You click on a second link and now you have the view of your significant loss posture, crazy of that same quality. Say Sagent and then you click on the third name with us. Nothing to do with quality. It's all Microsoft. You create your playbook and you remediate. So security in this environment has become click, click, click, nothing to install, nothing to update. And the only thing you bring are your policies saying, I don't want to have this kind of measured machine expose on the internet. >>I want, this is what I want. And you can continuously audit in essentially in real time, right? So as you can see, totally different than putting boxes and boxes and so many things and then having to for you. So very big game changer. So the analogy that I want you that I give to people, it's so people don't understand that paradigm shift is already happening in the way we secure our homes. You put sensors everywhere, you have cameras, you have detection for proximity detection. Essentially when somebody tried to enter your home, all that data is continuously pumped up into an incidence restaurant system. And then from your phone, again across the internet, you can change the temperature of your rooms. You can do what you can see the person who knocks on the door. You can see its face, you can open the door, close the door, the garage door, you can do all of that remotely, another medically. >>And then if there's a burglar then in your house to try to raking immediately the incidents or some system called the cops or the far Marsha difficult fire. And that's the new paradigm. So security has to follow that paradigm. And then you have interesting of the problem today that we see with all the current secretly uh, systems, uh, incidents, response system. They have a lot of false positive, false positive and false negative are the enemy really of security. Because if you are forced visited, you cannot automate the response because then you are going to try to respond to something that is not true. So you are, you could create a lot of damage. And the example I give you that today in the, if you leave your dog in your house and if you don't have the ability, the dog will bark, would move. And then the sensors would say intruder alert. >>So that's becomes a false positive. So how do you eliminate that? By having more context, you can eliminate automatically again, this false positives. Like now you take a fingerprint of your dog and of these voice and now the camera and this and the sensors and the voice can pick up and say, Oh, this is my dog. So then of course you eliminate that for solar, right? Right. Now even if another dog managed to enter your home through a window which was open or whatever for soul, you will know her window was up and but you know you cannot necessarily fix it and the dog opens. Then you will know it's a, it's a, it's not sure about, right? So that's what security is evolving such a huge sea of change, which is happening because of all that internet and today companies today, after leveraging new cloud technology, which are coming, there's so much new technology. >>What people understand is where's that technology coming from? How come silently we have, you know, Dockers netics all these solutions today, which are available at almost no cost because it's all open source. So what happened is that, which is unlike the enterprise software, which were more the Oracle et cetera, the manufacturer of that software today is in fact the cloud public cloud vendors, the Amazon, the Google, the Facebook, the Microsoft. We suddenly needed to have to develop new technology so they could scale at the size of the planet. And then very shrewdly realized that effective that technology for me, I'm essentially going to imprison that technology is not going to evolve. And then I need other technologies that are not developing. So they realized that they totally changed that open source movement, which in the early days of opensource was more controlled by people who had more purity. >>If you prefer no commercial interests, it was all for the good of the civilization and humankind. And they say their licensing model was very complex. So they simplified all of that. And then nothing until you had all this technology coming at you extremely fast. And we have leverage that technology, which was not existing in the early days when when socials.com started with the Linux lamp pour called what's called Linux Apache. My SQL and PHP, a little bit limiting, but now suddenly all this technology, that classic search was coming, we today in our backend, 3 trillion data points on elastic search clusters and we return inflammation in a hundred milliseconds. And then onto the calf cabin, which is again something at open source. We, we, we, and now today 5 million messages a day and on and on and on. So the world is changing and of course, if that's what it's called now, the digital transformation. >>So now enterprises to be essentially agile, to reach out to the customers better and more, they need to embrace the cloud as the way they do, retool their entire it infrastructure. And essentially it's a huge sea of change. And that's what we see even the market of security just to finish, uh, now evolving in a totally different ways than the way it has been, which in the past, the market of security was essentially the market for the enterprise. And I'm bringing you my, my board, my board town solutions that you have to go and install and make work, right? And then you had the, the antivirus essentially, uh, for all the consumers and so forth. So today when we see the marketplace, which is fragmenting in four different segments, which is one is the large enterprise which are going to essentially consolidate those stock, move into the digital transformation, leveraging absolutely dev ops, which isn't becoming the new buyer and of course a soak or they could improve, uh, their it for, to reach out to more customers and more effectively than the cloud providers as I mentioned earlier, which are building security in the, no few use them. >>You don't have to worry about infrastructure, about our mini servers. You need, I mean it is, it's all done for you. And same thing about security, right? The third market is going to be an emergence of a new generation of managed security service providers, which are going to take to all these companies. We don't have enough resources. Okay, don't worry, I'm going to help you, you know, do all that digital transformation. And that if you build a security and then there's a totally new market of all these devices, including the phone, et cetera, which connects and that you essentially want to all these like OT and IOT devices that are all now connected, which of course presents security risk. So you need to also secure them, but you also need to be able to also not only check their edits to make sure that, okay, because you cannot send people anymore. >>So you need to automate the same thing on security. If you find that that phone is compromised, you need to make, to be able to make immediate decisions about should I kill that phone, right? Destroyed everything in it. Should I know don't let that phone connect anymore to my networks. What should I do? Should I, by the way detected that they've downloaded the application, which are not allowed? Because what we see is more and more companies now are giving tablets, do the users. And in doing so now today's the company property. So they could say, okay, you use these tablets and uh, you're not allowed to do this app. So you could check all of that and then automatically remote. But that again requires a full visibility on what you are. And that's why just to finish, we make a big decision about a few, three months ago that we have, we build the ability for any company on the planet to automatically build their entire global HSE inventory, which nobody knows what they have in that old networking environment. >>You don't know what connects to have the view of the known and the unknown, totally free of charge, uh, across on premise and pawn cloud containers, uh, uh, uh, whether vacations, uh, OT and IOT devices to come. So now there's the cornerstone of security. So with that totally free. So, and then of course we have all these additional solutions and we're build a very scalable, uh, up in platform where we can take data in, pass out data as well. So we really need to be and want to be good citizen here because security at the end of the day, it's almost like we used to say like the doctors, you have to have that kind of apricot oath that you cannot do no arm. So if you keep, if you try to take the data that you have, keep it with you, that's absolutely not right because it's the data of your customers, right? >>So, and you have to make sure that it's there. So you have to be a good warning of the data, but you have to make sure that the customer can absolutely take that data to whatever he wants with it, whatever he needs to do. So that's the kind of totally new field as a fee. And finally today there is a new Ash culture change, which is, which is happening now in the companies, is that security has become fronted centers, is becoming now because of GDPR, which has a huge of financial could over you challenge an impact on a company. A data breach can have a huge financial impact. Security has become a board level. More and more social security is changing and now it's almost like companies, if they want to be successful in the future, they need to embrace a culture of security. And now what I used to say, and that was the, the conclusion of my talk is that now, today it DevOps, uh, security compliance, people need to unite. Not anymore. The silos. I do that. This is my, my turf, my servers. You do that, you do this. Everybody in the company can work. I have to work together towards that goal. And the vendors need to also start to inter operate as well and working with our customers. So it's a tall, new mindset, which is happening, but the safes are big. That's what I'm very confident that we're now into that. Finally, we thought, I thought it would have happened 10 years ago, quite frankly. And uh, but now today's already happening. >>She touched on a lot, a lot there. And I'll speak for another two hours if we could. We could go for Tara, but I want to, I want to unpack a couple of things. We've had James Hamilton on you to at AWS. Um, CTO, super smart guy and it was, it was at one of his talks where it really was kind of a splash, a wet water in the face when he talked about the amount of resources Amazon could deploy to just networking or the amount of PhD power he could put on, you know, any little tiny sub segment of their infrastructure platform where you just realize that you just can't, you can't compete, you cannot put those kinds of resources as an individual company in any bucket. So the inevitability of the cloud model is just, it's, it's the only way to leverage those resources. But because of that, how has, how has that helped you guys change your market? How nice is it for you to be able to leverage infrastructure partners? Like is your bill for go to market as well as feature sets? And also, you know, because the other piece they didn't talk about is the integration of all these things. Now they all work together. Most apps are collection of API APIs. That's also changed. So when you look at the cloud provider GCP as well, how does that help you deliver value to your customers? >>Yeah, but the, the, the, the club, they, they don't do everything. You know, today what is interesting is that the clubs would start to specialize themselves more and more. So for example, if you look at Amazon, the, the core value of Amazon since the beginning has been elastic computing. Uh, now today we should look at Microsoft. They leverage their position and they really have come up with a more enterprise friendly solution. And now Google is trying to find also their way today. And so then you have Addy Baba, et cetera. So these are the public cloud, but life is not uniform like is by nature. Divers life wants to leave lunch to find better ways. We see that that's what we have so many different species and it just ended up. So I've also the other phenomena of companies also building their own cloud as well. >>So the word is entering into a more hybrid cloud. And the technology is evolving very fast as well. And again, I was selling you all these open source software. There's a bigger phenomenon at play, which I used to say that people don't really understand that much wood, but it's so obvious is if you look at the printing price, that's another example that gives the printing price essentially allowed, as we all know, to distribute the gospel, which has some advantage of, you know, creating more morality, et cetera. But then what people don't know for the most part, it distributed the treaties of the Arabs on technology, the scientif treaties, because the archives, which were very thriving civilization at the time, I'd collected all the, all the, all the information from India, from many other places and from China and from etc. And essentially at the time all of Europe was pretty in the age they really came up and it now certainty that scientific knowledge was distributed and that was in fact the seeds of the industrial revolution, which then you're up cat coats and use that and creating all these different technologies. >>So that confidence of this dimension of electricity and all of that created the industrial revolution seeded by now, today what is happening is that the internet is the new printing press, which now is distributing the knowledge that not to a few millions of people to billions of people. So the rate today of advancing technology is accelerating and it's very difficult. I was mentioning today, we know today that work and working against some quantum computing which are going to totally change things. Of course we don't know exactly how and you have also it's clear that today we could use genetic, uh, the, the, the, if you look at DNA, which stores so much information, so little place that we could have significant more, you know, uh, memory capabilities that lower costs. So we have embarked into absolutely a new world where things are changing. I've got a little girl, which is 12 years old and fundamentally that new generation, especially of girls, not boys, because the boys are still on, you know, at that age. >>Uh, they are very studious. They absorb so much information via YouTube. They are things like a security stream. They are so knowledgeable. And when you look back at history 2000 years plus ago in Greece, you at 95 plus percent of the population slaves. So a few percent could start to think now, today it's totally changed. And the amount of information they can, they learn. And this absolutely amazing. And you know, she, she's, I would tell you the story which has nothing to do with computing, but as a button, the knowledge of, she came to me the few, few weeks ago and she said, Oh daddy, I would like to make my mother more productive. Okay. So I said, Oh, that's her name is Avia, which is the, which is the, the, the either Greece or Zeus weathered here. And so I say, Evie, I, so that's a good idea. >>So how are you going to do it? I mean, our answer, I was flawed, but that is very simple. Just like with, for me, I'm going to ask her to go to YouTube to learn what she needs to learn. Exactly. And she learns, she draws very well. She learns how to draw in YouTube and it's not a gifted, she's a nice, very nice little girl and very small, but all her friends are like that. Right? So we're entering in a word, which thing are changing very, very fast. So the key is adaptation, education and democracy and democratization. Getting more people access to more. Absolutely. It's very, very important. And then kind of this whole dev ops continuous improve that. Not big. That's a very good point that you make because that's exactly today the new buyer today in security and in it is becoming the DevOps shipper. >>Because what? What are these people? There are engineers which suddenly create good code and then they want to of course ship their code and then all these old silos or you need to do these, Oh no, we need to put the new server, we don't have the capacity, et cetera. How is that going to take three months or a month? And then finally they find a way through, again, you know, all the need for scale, which was coming from the Google, from the Facebook and so forth. And by the way, we can shortcut all of that and we can create and we can run out to auto-ship, our code. Guess what are they doing today? They are learning how to secure all of that, right? So again, it's that ability to really learn and move. And today, uh, one of the problem that you alluded to is that, which the Amazon was saying is that their pick there, they have taken a lot of the talent resources in the U S today because of course they pay them extra to me, what? >>Of course they'll attract that talent. And of course there's now people send security. There's not enough people that even in, but guess what? We realized that few years ago in 2007, we'll make a big decision who say, well, never going to be able to attract the right people in the Silicon Valley. And we've started to go to India and we have now 750 people. And Jack Welch used to say, we went to India for the cost and discover the talent. We went to India for the talent and we discover the cost. And there is a huge pool of tenants. So it's like a life wants to continue to leave and now to, there are all these tools to learn, are there, look at the can Academy, which today if you want to go in nuclear physics, you can do that through your phone. So that ability to learn is there. So I think we need just more and more people are coming. So I'm a very optimistic in a way because I think the more we improve our technologies that we look at the progress we're making genetics and so everywhere and that confidence of technology is really creating a new way. >>You know, there's a lot of conversations about a dystopian future and a utopian future with all these technologies and the machines. And you know what? Hollywood has shown us with AI, you're very utopian side, very optimistic on that equation. What gives you, what gives you, you know, kind of that positive feeling insecurity, which traditionally a lot of people would say is just whack a mole. And we're always trying to chase the bad guys. Generally >>speaking, if I'm a topian in in a way. But on the other end, you'd need to realize that unfortunately when you have to technological changes and so forth, it's also create factors. And when you look at this story in Manatee, the same technological advancement that some countries to take to try to take advantage of fathers is not that the word is everything fine and everything peaceful. In fact, Richard Clark was really their kid always saying that, Hey, you know that there is a sinister side to all the internet and so forth. But that's the human evolution. So I believe that we are getting longterm. It's going to. So in the meantime there's a lot of changes and humans don't adapt well to change. And so that's in a way, uh, the big challenge we have. But I think over time we can create a culture of change and that will really help. And I also believe that probably at some point in time we will re-engineer the human race. >>All right, cool. We'll leave it there. That's going to launch a whole nother couple hours. They leave. Congratulations on the event and a great job on your keynote. Thanks for taking a few minutes with us. Alrighty. It's relief. I'm Jeff. You're watching the cube where the Qualice security conference at the Bellagio in Las Vegas. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.