(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon, fellow cloud nerds, and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage of AWS re:Invent, here in a fabulous Sin City, Las Vegas, Nevada. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined by my fabulous co-host, John Furrier. John, how you feeling? >> Great, feeling good Just getting going. Day one of four more, three more days after today. >> Woo! Yeah. >> So much conversation. Talking about business transformation as cloud goes next level- >> Hot topic here for sure. >> Next generation. Data's classic is still around, but the next gen cloud's here, it's changing the game. Lot more AI, machine learning, a lot more business value. I think it's going to be exciting. Next segment's going to be awesome. >> It feels like one of those years where there's just a ton of momentum. I don't think it's just because we're back in person at scale, you can see the literally thousands of people behind us while we're here on set conducting these interviews. Our bold and brave guests, just like the two we have here, combating the noise, the libations, and everything else going on on the show floor. Please help me welcome Mike from Science Logic and Ajay from Zebrium. Gentlemen, welcome to the show floor. >> Thank you. >> Thank you Savannah. It's great to be here. >> How you feeling? Are you feeling the buzz, Mike? Feeling the energy? >> It's tough to not feel and hear the buzz, Savannah >> Savannah: Yeah. (all laughing) >> John: Can you hear me? >> Savannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you hear me now? What about you, Ajay? How's it feel to be here? >> Yeah, this is high energy. I'm really happy it's bounced back from COVID. I was a little concerned about attendance. This is hopping. >> Yeah, I feel it. It just, you can definitely feel the energy, the sense of community. We're all here for the right reasons. So I know that, I want to set the stage for everyone watching, Zebrium was recently acquired by Science Logic. Mike, can you tell us a little bit about that and what it means for the company? >> Mike: Sure, sure. Well, first of all, science logic, as you may know, has been in the monitoring space for a long time now, and what- >> Savannah: 20 years I believe. >> Yeah. >> Savannah: Just about. >> And what we've seen is a shift from kind of monitoring infrastructure, to monitoring these increasingly complex modern cloud native applications, right? And so this is part of a journey that we've been on at Science Logic to really modernize how enterprises of all sizes manage their IT estate. Okay? So, managing, now workloads that are increasingly in the public cloud, outside the four walls of the enterprise, workloads that are increasingly complex. They're microservices based, they're container based. >> Mhmm. >> Mike: And the rate of change, just because of things like CICD, and agile development has also increased the complexity in the typical IT environment. So all these things have conspired to make the traditional tools and processes of managing IT and IT applications much more difficult. They just don't scale. One of the things that we've seen recently, Savannah is this shift in sort of moving to cloud native applications, right? >> Huge shift. >> Mike: Today it only incorporates about roughly 25% of the typical IT portfolio, but most of the projections we've seen indicate that that's going to invert in about three years. 75% of applications will be what I call cloud native. And so this really requires different technologies to understand what's going on with those applications. And so Zebrium interested us when we were looking at partners at the beginning of this year as they have a super innovative approach to understanding really what's going on with any cloud native application. And they really distill, they separate the complexity out of the equation and they used machine learning to tremendous effect to rapidly understand the root cause of an application failure. And so I was introduced to Ajay, beginning of this year, actually. It feels like it's been a long time now. But we've been on this journey together throughout 2022, and we're thrilled to have Zebrium now, part of the Science Logic family. >> Ajay, Zebrium saves people a lot of time. Obviously, I've worked with developers and seen that struggle when things break, shortening that time to recovery and understanding is so critical. Can you tell us a little bit about what's under the hood and how the ML works to make that happen? >> Ajay: Yeah. So the goal is to figure out not just that something went wrong, but what went wrong. >> Savannah: Right. >> And we took, you know, based on a couple of decades of experience from my co-founders- >> Savannah: Casual couple of decades, came into went into this product just to call that out. Yeah, great. >> Exactly. It took some general learnings about the nature of software and when software breaks, what tends to happen, you tend to see unusual things happen, and they lead to bad things happening. It's very simple. >> Yes. >> It turns out- >> Savannah: Mutations lead to bad things happening, generally speaking. >> So what Zebrium's really good at is identifying those rare things accurately and then figuring out how they connect, or correlate to the bad things, the errors, the warnings, the alerts. So the machine learning has many stages to it, but at its heart it's classifying the event, catalog of any application stack, figuring out what's rare, and when things start to break it's telling you this cluster of events is both unusual, and unlikely to be random, and it's very likely the root cause report for the problem you're trying to solve. We then added some nice enhancements, such as correlation with knowledge spaces in, on the public internet. If someone's ever solved that problem before, we're able to find a match, and pull that back into our platform. But the at the heart, it was a technology that can find rare events and find the connections with other events. >> John: Yeah, and this is the theme of re:Invent this year, data, the role of data, solving end-to-end complexities. One, you mentioned that. Two, I think the Mike, your point about developers and the CICD pipeline is where DevOps is. That is what IT now is. So, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, or its path and continue it, IT is DevOps. So the developers are actually doing the IT in their coding, hence the shift to autonomous IT. >> Mike: Right, right. Now, those other functions at IT used to be a department, not anymore, or they still are, so, but they'll go away, is security and data teams. You're starting to see the formation of- >> Mike: Yep. >> New replacements to IT as a function to support the developers who are building the applications that will be the company. >> That's right. Yeah. >> John: I mean that's, and do you agree with that statement? >> Yeah, I really do. And you know, collectively independent of whether it's like traditional IT, or it's DevOps, or whatever it is, the enterprise as a whole needs to understand how the infrastructure is deployed, the health of that infrastructure, and more importantly the applications that are hosted in the infrastructure. How are they doing? What's the health? And what we are seeing, and what we're trying to facilitate at Science Logic is really changed the lens of IT, from being low level compute, storage, and networking, to looking at everything through a services lens, looking at the services being delivered by IT, back to the business, and understanding things through a services lens. And Zebrium really compliments that mission that we've been on, by providing, cause a lot of cases, service equal equal application, and they can provide that kind of very real time view of service health in, you know, kind of the IT- >> And automation is beautiful there too, because, as you get into some of the scale- >> Yeah >> Ajay's. understanding how to do this fast is a key component. >> Yeah. So scale, you, you've pinpointed one of the dimensions that makes AI really important when it comes to troubleshooting. The humans just can't scale as fast as data, nor can they keep up with complexity of modern applications. And the third element that we feel is really important is the velocity with which people are now rolling out changes. People develop new features within hours, push them out to production. And in a world like that, the human has just no ability or time to understand what's normal, what's bad, to update their alert rules. And you need a machine, or an AI technology, to go help you with that. And that's basically what we're about. >> So this is where AI Ops comes in, right? Perfectly. Yeah. >> Yeah. You know, and John started to allude to it earlier, but having the insight on what's going on, we believe is only half of the equation, right? Once you understand what's going on, you naturally want to take action to remediate it or optimize it. And we believe automation should not be an exercise that's left to the reader. >> Yeah. >> As a lot of traditional platforms have done. Instead, we have a very robust, no-code, low-code automation built into our platform that allows you to take action in context with what you're seeing right then and there with the service. >> John: Yeah. Essentially monitoring, a term you use observability, some used as a fancy word today, is critical in all operating environments. So if we, if we kind of holistically, hey we're a distributed computing system, aka cloud, you got to track stuff at scale and you got to understand what it, what the impact is from a systems perspective. There's consequences to understanding what goes wrong. So as you look at that, what's the challenge for customers to do that? Because that seems to be the hard part as they lift and shift to the cloud, run their apps on the cloud, now they got to go take it to the next level, which is more developer velocity, faster productivity, and secure. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that seems to be the table stakes now. >> Yeah. >> How are companies forming around that? Are they there yet? Are they halfway there? Are they, where are they in the progression of, one, are they changing? And if so- >> Yeah that's a great question. I mean, I think whether it's an IT use case or a security use case, you can't manage what you don't know about. So visibility, discoverability, understanding what's going on, in a lot of ways that's the really hard problem to solve. And traditionally, we've approached that by like, harvesting data off of all these machines and devices in the infrastructure. But as we've seen with Zebrium and with related machine learning technologies, there's multiple ways of gaining insight as to what's going on. Once you have the insight be it an IT issue, like a service outage, or a security vulnerability, then you can take action. And the idea is you want to make that action as seamless as possible. But I think to answer your question, John, enterprises are still kind of getting their heads around how can we break down all the silos that have built up over the last decade or two, internally, and get visibility across the estate that really matters. And I think that's the real challenge. >> And I mean, and, at the velocity that applications are growing, just looking at our notes here, number of applications scaling from 64 million in 2017 to 147 million in 2021. That goes to what you were talking about, even with those other metrics earlier, 582 million by 2026 is what Morgan Stanley predicts. So, not only do we need to get out of silos we need to be able to see everything all the time, all at once, from the past legacy, as well as as we extend at scale. How are you thinking about that, Ajay? You're now with a big partner as an umbrella. What's next for you all? How, how are you going to help people solve problems faster? >> Yeah, so one of the attractions to the Zebrium team about Science Logic, aside from the team, and the culture, was the product portfolio was so complimentary. As Mike mentioned, you need visibility, you need mapping from low level building blocks to business services. And the end, at the end of the spectrum, once you know something's wrong you need to be able to take action automatically. And again, Science Logic has a very strong product, set of product capabilities and automated actions. What we bring to the table is the middle layer, which is from visibility, understanding what went wrong, figuring out the root cause. So to us, it was really exciting to be a very nice tuck in into this broader platform where we helped complete the story. >> Savannah: Yeah, that's, that's exciting. >> John: Should we do the Insta challenge? >> I was just getting ready to do that. You go for it John. You go ahead and kick it off. >> So we have this little tradition now, Instagram real, short and sweet. If you were going to see yourself on Instagram, what would be the Instagram reel of why this year's re:Invent is so important, and why people should pay attention to what's going on right now in the industry, or your company? >> Well, I think partly what Ajay was saying it's good to be back, right? So seeing just the energy and being back in 3D, you know en mass, is awesome again. It really is. >> Yeah. >> Mike: But, you know, I think this is where it's happening. We are at an inflection point of our industry and we're seeing a sea change in the way that applications and software delivered to businesses, to enterprises. And it's happening right here. This is the nexus of it. And so we're thrilled to be here as a part of all this, and excited about the future. >> All right, Ajay- >> Well done. He passes >> Your Instagram reel. >> Knowing what's happening in the broader economy, in the business context, it's, it feels even more important that companies like us are working on technologies that empower the same number of people to do more. Because it may not be realistic to just add on more headcount given what's going on in the world. But your deliverables and your roadmaps aren't slowing down. So, still the same amount of complexity, the same growth rates, but you're going to have to deal with all of that with fewer resources and be smarter about it. So, the approaches we're taking feel very much off the moment, you know, given what's going on in the real world. >> I love it. I love it. I've got, I've got kind of a finger to the wind, potentially hardball question for you here to close it out. But, given that you both have your finger really on the pulse right here, what percentage of current IT operations do you think will eventually be automated by AI and ML? Or AI ops? >> Well, I think a large percentage of traditional IT operations, and I'm talking about, you know, network operating center type of, you know, checking heartbeat monitors of compute storage and networking health. I think a lot of those things are going to be automated, right? Machine learning, just because of the scale. You can't scale, you can't hire enough NOC engineers to scale that kind of complexity. But I think IT talents, and what they're going to be focusing on is going shift, and they're going to be focusing on different parts. And I believe a lot of IT is going to be a much more of an enabler for the business, versus just managing things when they go wrong. So that's- >> All right. >> That's what I believe is part of the change. >> That's your, all right Ajay what about your hot take? >> Knowing how error-prone predictions are, (all laughing) I'll caveat my with- >> Savannah: We're allowing for human error here. >> I could be wildly wrong, but if I had to guess, you know, in 10 years you know, as much as 50% of the tasks will be automated. >> Mike: Oh, you- >> I love it. >> Mike: You threw a number out there. >> I love it. I love that he put his finger out- >> You got to see, you got to say the matrix. We're all going to be part of the matrix. >> Well, you know- >> And Star Trek- >> Skynet >> We can only turn back to this footage in a few years and quote you exactly when you have the, you know Mackenzie Research or the Morgan Stanley research that we've been mentioning here tonight and say that you've called it accurately. So I appreciate that. Ajay, it was wonderful to have you here. Congratulations on the acquisition. Thank you. Mike, thank you so much for being here on the Science Logic side, and congratulations to the team on 20 years. That's very exciting. John. Thank you. >> I try, I tried. Thank you. >> You try, you succeed. And thank you to all of our fabulous viewers out there at home. Be sure and tweet us at theCUBE. Say hello, Furrier, Sav is savvy. Let us know what you're thinking of AWS re:Invent where we are live from Las Vegas all week. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. My name's Savannah Peterson, and we'll see you soon. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Greetings, brilliant community and thank you so much for tuning in to theCUBE here for the last three days where we've been live from Detroit, Michigan. I've had the pleasure of spending this week with Lisa Martin and John Furrier. Thank you both so much for hanging out, for inviting me into the CUBE family. It's our first show together, it's been wonderful. >> Thank you. >> You nailed it. >> Oh thanks, sweetheart. >> Great job. Great job team, well done. Free wall to wall coverage, it's what we do. We stay till everyone else-- >> Savannah: 100 percent. >> Everyone else leaves, till they pull the plug. >> Lisa: Till they turn the lights out. We're still there. >> Literally. >> Literally last night. >> Still broadcasting. >> Whatever takes to get the stories and get 'em out there at scale. >> Yeah. >> Great time. >> 33. 33 different segments too. Very impressive. John, I'm curious, you're a trend watcher and you've been at every single KubeCon. >> Yep. >> What are the trends this year? Give us the breakdown. >> I think CNCF does this, it's a hard job to balance all the stakeholders. So one, congratulations to the CNCF for another great KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. It is really hard to balance bringing in the experts who, as time goes by, seven years we've been all of, as you said, you get experts, you get seniority, and people who can be mentors, 60% new people. You have vendors who are sponsoring and there's always people complaining and bitching and moaning. They want this, they want that. It's always hard and they always do a good job of balancing it. We're lucky that we get to scale the stories with CUBE and that's been great. We had some great stories here, but it's a great community and again, they're inclusive. As I've said before, we've talked about it. This year though is an inflection point in my opinion, because you're seeing the developer ecosystem growing so fast. It's global. You're seeing events pop up, you're seeing derivative events. CNCF is at the center point and they have to maintain the culture of developer experts, maintainers, while balancing the newbies. And that's going to be >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. really hard. And they've done a great job. We had a great conversation with them. So great job. And I think it's going to continue. I think the attendance metric is a little bit of a false positive. There's a lot of online people who didn't come to Detroit this year. And I think maybe the combination of the venue, the city, or just Covid preferences may not look good on paper, on the numbers 'cause it's not a major step up in attendance. It's still bigger, but the community, I think, is going to continue to grow. I'm bullish on it. >> Yeah, I mean at least we did see double the number of people that we had in Los Angeles. Very curious. I think Amsterdam, where we'll be next with CNCF in the spring, in April. I think that's actually going to be a better pulse check. We'll be in Europe, we'll see what's going on. >> John: Totally. >> I mean, who doesn't like Amsterdam in the springtime? Lisa, what have been some of your observations? >> Oh, so many observations. The evolution of the conference, the hallway track conversations really shifting towards adjusting to the enterprise. The enterprise momentum that we saw here as well. We had on the show, Ford. >> Savannah: Yes. We had MassMutual, we had ING, that was today. Home Depot is here. We are seeing all these big companies that we know and love, become software companies right before our eyes. >> Yeah. Well, and I think we forget that software powers our entire world. And so of course they're going to have to be here. So much running on Kubernetes. It's on-prem, it's at the edge, it's everywhere. It's exciting. Woo, I'm excited. John, what do you think is the number one story? This is your question. I love asking you this question. What is the number one story out KubeCon? >> Well, I think the top story is a combination of two things. One is the evolution of Cloud Native. We're starting to see web assembly. That's a big hyped up area. It got a lot of attention. >> Savannah: Yeah. That's kind of teething out the future. >> Savannah: Rightfully so. The future of this kind of lightweight. You got the heavy duty VMs, you got Kubernetes and containers, and now this web assembly, shows a trajectory of apps, server-like environment. And then the big story is security. Software supply chain is, to me, was the number one consistent theme. At almost all the interviews, in the containers, and the workflows, >> Savannah: Very hot. software supply chain is real. The CD Foundation mentioned >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> they had 16,000 vulnerabilities identified in their code base. They were going to automate that. So again, >> Savannah: That was wild. >> That's the top story. The growth of open source exposes potential vulnerabilities with security. So software supply chain gets my vote. >> Did you hear anything that surprised you? You guys did this great preview of what you thought we were going to hear and see and feel and touch at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2022. You talked about, for example, the, you know, healthcare financial services being early adopters of this. Anything surprise either one of you in terms of what you predicted versus what we saw? Savannah, let's start with you. >> You know what really surprised me, and this is ironic, so I'm a community gal by trade. But I was really just impressed by the energy that everyone brought here and the desire to help. The thing about the open source community that always strikes me is, I mean 187 different countries participating. You've got, I believe it's something like 175,000 people contributing to the 140 projects plus that CNCF is working on. But that culture of collaboration extends far beyond just the CNCF projects. Everyone here is keen to help each other. We had the conversation just before about the teaching and the learnings that are going on here. They brought in Detroit's students to come and learn, which is just the most heartwarming story out of this entire thing. And I think it's just the authenticity of everyone in this community and their passion. Even though I know it's here, it still surprises me to see it in the flesh. Especially in a place like Detroit. >> It's nice. >> Yeah. >> It's so nice to see it. And you bring up a good point. It's very authentic. >> Savannah: It's super authentic. >> I mean, what surprised me is one, the Wasm, or web assembly. I didn't see that coming at the scale of the conversation. It sucked a lot of options out of the room in my opinion, still hyped up. But this looks like it's got a good trajectory. I like that. The other thing that surprised me that was a learning was my interview with Solo.io, Idit, and Brian Gracely, because he's a CUBE alumni and former host of theCUBE, and analyst at Wikibon, was how their go-to-market was an example of a modern company in Covid with a clean sheet of paper and smart people, they're just doing things different. They're in Slack with their customers. And I walked away with, "Wow that's like a playbook that's not, was never, in the go-to-market VC-backed company playbook." I thought that was, for me, a personal walk away saying that's important. I like how they did that. And there's a lot of companies I think could learn from that. Especially as the recession comes where partnering with customers has always been a top priority. And how they did that was very clever, very effective, very efficient. So I walked away with that saying, "I think that's going to be a standard." So that was a pleasant surprise. >> That was a great surprise. Also, that's a female-founded company, which is obviously not super common. And the growth that they've experienced, to your point, really being catalyzed by Covid, is incredibly impressive. I mean they have some massive brand name customers, Amex, BMW for example. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Great point. >> And I interviewed her years ago and I remember saying to myself, "Wow, she's impressive." I liked her. She's a player. A player for sure. And she's got confidence. Even on the interview she said, "We're just better, we have better product." And I just like the point of view. Very customer-focused but confident. And I just took, that's again, a great company. And again, I'm not surprised that Brian Gracely left Red Hat to go work there. So yeah, great, great call there. And of course other things that weren't surprising that I predicted, Red Hat continued to invest. They continue to bring people on theCUBE, they support theCUBE but more importantly they have a good strategy. They're in that multicloud positioning. They're going to have an opportunity to get a bite at the apple. And I what I call the supercloud. As enterprises try to go and be mainstream, Cloud Native, they're going to need some help. And Red Hat is always has the large enterprise customers. >> Savannah: What surprised you, Lisa? >> Oh my gosh, so many things. I think some of the memorable conversations that we had. I love talking with some of the enterprises that we mentioned, ING Bank for example. You know, or institutions that have been around for 100 plus years. >> Savannah: Oh, yeah. To see not only how much they've innovated and stayed relevant to meet the demands of the consumer, which are only increasing, but they're doing so while fostering a culture of innovation and a culture that allows these technology leaders to really grow within the organization. That was a really refreshing conversation that I think we had. 'Cause you can kind of >> Savannah: Absolutely. think about these old stodgy companies. Nah, of course they're going to digitize. >> Thinking about working for the bank, I think it's boring. >> Right? >> Yeah. And they were talking about, in fact, those great t-shirts that they had on, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. were all about getting more people to understand how fun it is to work in tech for ING Bank in different industries. You don't just have to work for the big tech companies to be doing really cool stuff in technology. >> What I really liked about this show is we had two female hosts. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> How about that? Come on. >> Hey, well done, well done on your recruitment there, champ. >> Yes, thank you boss. (John laughs) >> And not to mention we have a really all-star production team. I do just want to give them a little shout out. To all the wonderful folks behind the lines here. (people clapping) >> John: Brendan. Good job. >> Yeah. Without Brendan, Anderson, Noah, and Andrew, we would be-- >> Of course Frank Faye holding it back there too. >> Yeah, >> Of course, Frank. >> I mean, without the business development wheels on the ship we'd really be in an unfortunate spot. I almost just swore on television. We're not going to do that. >> It's okay. No one's regulating. >> Yeah. (all laugh) >> Elon Musk just took over Twitter. >> It was a close call. >> That's right! >> It's going to be a hellscape. >> Yeah, I mean it's, shit's on fire. So we'll just see what happens next. I do, I really want to talk about this because I think it's really special. It's an ethos and some magic has happened here. Let's talk about Detroit. Let's talk about what it means to be here. We saw so many, and I can't stress this enough, but I think it really matters. There was a commitment to celebrating place here. Lisa, did you notice this too? >> Absolutely. And it surprised me because we just don't see that at conferences. >> Yeah. We're so used to going to the same places. >> Right. >> Vegas. Vegas, Vegas. More Vegas. >> Your tone-- >> San Francisco >> (both laugh) sums up my feelings. Yes. >> Right? >> Yeah. And, well, it's almost robotic but, and the fact that we're like, oh Detroit, really? But there was so much love for this city and recognizing and supporting its residents that we just don't see at conferences. You uncovered a lot of that with your swag-savvy segments, >> Savannah: Yeah. >> And you got more of that to talk about today. >> Don't worry, it's coming. Yeah. (laughs) >> What about you? Have you enjoyed Detroit? I know you hadn't been here in a long time, when we did our intro session. >> I think it's a bold move for the CNCF to come here and celebrate. What they did, from teaching the kids in the city some tech, they had a session. I thought that was good. >> Savannah: Loved that. I think it was a risky move because a lot of people, like, weren't sure if they were going to fly to Detroit. So some say it might impact the attendance. I thought they did a good job. Their theme, Road Ahead. Nice tie in. >> Savannah: Yeah. And so I think I enjoyed Detroit. The weather was great. It didn't rain. Nice breeze outside. >> Yeah. >> The weather was great, the restaurants are phenomenal. So Detroit's a good city. I missed some hockey games. I'd love to see the Red Wings play. Missed that game. But we always come back. >> I think it's really special. I mean, every time I talked to a company about their swag, that had sourced it locally, there was a real reason for this story. I mean even with Kasten in that last segment when I noticed that they had done Carhartt beanies, Carhartt being a Michigan company. They said, "I'm so glad you noticed. That's why we did it." And I think that type of, the community commitment to place, it all comes back to community. One of the bigger themes of the show. But that passion and that support, we need more of that. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> And the thing about the guests we've had this past three days have been phenomenal. We had a diverse set of companies, individuals come on theCUBE, you know, from Scott Johnston at Docker. A really one on one. We had a great intense conversation. >> Savannah: Great way to kick it off. >> We shared a lot of inside baseball, about Docker, super important company. You know, impressed with companies like Platform9 it's been around since the OpenStack days who are now in a relevant position. Rafi Systems, hot startup, they don't have a lot of resources, a lot of guerilla marketing going on. So I love to see the mix of startups really contributing. The big players are here. So it's a real great mix of companies. And I thought the interviews were phenomenal, like you said, Ford. We had, Kubia launched on theCUBE. >> Savannah: Yes. >> That's-- >> We snooped the location for KubeCon North America. >> You did? >> Chicago, everyone. In case you missed it, Bianca was nice enough to share that with us. >> We had Sarbjeet Johal, CUBE analyst came on, Keith Townsend, yesterday with you guys. >> We had like analyst speed dating last night. (all laugh) >> How'd that go? (laughs) >> It was actually great. One of the things that they-- >> Did they hug and kiss at the end? >> Here's the funny thing is that they were debating the size of the CNC app. One thinks it's too big, one thinks it's too small. And I thought, is John Goldilocks? (John laughs) >> Savannah: Yeah. >> What is John going to think about that? >> Well I loved that segment. I thought, 'cause Keith and Sarbjeet argue with each other on Twitter all the time. And I heard Keith say before, he went, "Yeah let's have it out on theCUBE." So that was fun to watch. >> Thank you for creating this forum for us to have that kind of discourse. >> Lisa: Yes, thank you. >> Well, it wouldn't be possible without the sponsors. Want to thank the CNCF. >> Absolutely. >> And all the ecosystem partners and sponsors that make theCUBE possible. We love doing this. We love getting the stories. No story's too small for theCUBE. We'll go with it. Do whatever it takes. And if it wasn't for the sponsors, the community wouldn't get all the great knowledge. So, and thank you guys. >> Hey. Yeah, we're, we're happy to be here. Speaking of sponsors and vendors, should we talk a little swag? >> Yeah. >> What do you guys think? All right. Okay. So now this is becoming a tradition on theCUBE so I'm very delighted, the savvy swag segment. I do think it's interesting though. I mean, it's not, this isn't just me shouting out folks and showing off t-shirts and socks. It's about standing out from the noise. There's a lot of players in this space. We got a lot of CNCF projects and one of the ways to catch the attention of people walking the show floor is to have interesting swag. So we looked for the most unique swag on Wednesday and I hadn't found this yet, but I do just want to bring it up. Oops, I think I might have just dropped it. This is cute. Is, most random swag of the entire show goes to this toothbrush. I don't really have more in terms of the pitch there because this is just random. (Lisa laughs) >> But so, everyone needs that. >> John: So what's their tagline? >> And you forget these. >> Yeah, so the idea was to brush your cloud bills. So I think they're reducing the cost of-- >> Kind of a hygiene angle. >> Yeah, yeah. Very much a hygiene angle, which I found a little ironic in this crowd to be completely honest with you. >> John: Don't leave the lights on theCUBE. That's what they say. >> Yeah. >> I mean we are theCUBE so it would be unjust of me not to show you a Rubik's cube. This is actually one of those speed cubes. I'm not going to be able to solve this for you with one hand on camera, but apparently someone did it in 17 seconds at the booth. Knowing this audience, not surprising to me at all. Today we are, and yesterday, was the t-shirt contest. Best t-shirt contest. Today we really dove into the socks. So this is, I noticed this trend at KubeCon in Los Angeles last year. Lots of different socks, clouds obviously a theme for the cloud. I'm just going to lay these out. Lots of gamers in the house. Not surprising. Here on this one. >> John: Level up. >> Got to level up. I love these 'cause they say, "It's not a bug." And anyone who's coded has obviously had to deal with that. We've got, so Star Wars is a huge theme here. There's Lego sets. >> John: I think it's Star Trek. But. >> That's Star Trek? >> John: That's okay. >> Could be both. (Lisa laughs) >> John: Nevermind, I don't want to. >> You can flex your nerd and geek with us anytime you want, John. I don't mind getting corrected. I'm all about, I'm all about the truth. >> Star Trek. Star Wars. Okay, we're all the same. Okay, go ahead. >> Yeah, no, no, this is great. Slim.ai was nice enough to host us for dinner on Tuesday night. These are their lovely cloud socks. You can see Cloud Native, obviously Cloud Native Foundation, cloud socks, whole theme here. But if we're going to narrow it down to some champions, I love these little bee elephants from Raft. And when I went up to these guys, I actually probably would've called these my personal winner. They said, again, so community focused and humble here at CNCF, they said that Wiz was actually the champion according to the community. These unicorn socks are pretty excellent. And I have to say the branding is flawless. So we'll go ahead and give Wiz the win on the best sock contest. >> John: For the win. >> Yeah, Wiz for the win. However, the thing that I am probably going to use the most is this really dope Detroit snapback from Kasten. So I'm going to be rocking this from now on for the rest of the segment as well. And I feel great about this snapback. >> Looks great. Looks good on you. >> Yeah. >> Thanks John. (John laughs) >> So what are we expecting between now and KubeCon in Amsterdam? >> Well, I think it's going to be great to see how they, the European side, it's a chill show. It's great. Brings in the European audience from the global perspective. I always love the EU shows because one, it's a great destination. Amsterdam's going to be a great location. >> Savannah: I'm pumped. >> The American crowd loves going over there. All the event cities that they choose are always awesome. I missed Valencia cause I got Covid. I'm really bummed about that. But I love the European shows. It's just a little bit, it's high intensity, but it's the European chill. They got a little bit more of that siesta vibe going on. >> Yeah. >> And it's just awesome. >> Yeah, >> And I think that the mojo that carried throughout this week, it's really challenging to not only have a show that's five days, >> but to go through all week, >> Savannah: Seriously. >> to a Friday at 4:00 PM Eastern Time, and still have the people here, the energy and all the collaboration. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> The conversations that are still happening. I think we're going to see a lot more innovation come spring 2023. >> Savannah: Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> So should we do a bet, somebody's got to buy dinner? Who, well, I guess the folks who lose this will buy dinner for the other one. How many attendees do you think we'll see in Amsterdam? So we had 4,000, >> Oh, I'm going to lose this one. >> roughly in Los Angeles. Priyanka was nice enough to share with us, there was 8,000 here in Detroit. And I'm talking in person, we're not going to meddle this with the online. >> 6500. >> Lisa: I was going to say six, six K. >> I'm going 12,000. >> Ooh! >> I'm going to go ahead and go big I'm going to go opposite Price Is Right. >> One dollar. >> Yeah. (all laugh) That's exactly where I was driving with it. I'm going, I'm going absolutely all in. I think the momentum here is building. I think if we look at the numbers from-- >> John: You could go Family Feud >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they mentioned that they had 11,000 people who have taken their Kubernetes course in that first year. If that's a benchmark and an indicator, we've got the veteran players here. But I do think that, I personally think that the hype of Kubernetes has actually preceded adoption. If you look at the data and now we're finally tipping over. I think the last two years we were on the fringe and right now we're there. It's great. (voice blares loudly on loudspeaker) >> Well, on that note (all laugh) On that note, actually, on that note, as we are talking, so I got to give cred to my cohosts. We deal with a lot of background noise here on theCUBE. It is a live show floor. There's literally someone on an e-scooter behind me. There's been Pong going on in the background. The sound will haunt the three of us for the rest of our lives, as well as the production crew. (Lisa laughs) And, and just as we're sitting here doing this segment last night, they turned the lights off on us, today they're letting everyone know that the event is over. So on that note, I just want to say, Lisa, thank you so much. Such a warm welcome to the team. >> Thank you. >> John, what would we do without you? >> You did an amazing job. First CUBE, three days. It's a big show. You got staying power, I got to say. >> Lisa: Absolutely. >> Look at that. Not bad. >> You said it on camera now. >> Not bad. >> So you all are stuck with me. (all laugh) >> A plus. Great job to the team. Again, we do so much flow here. Brandon, Team, Andrew, Noah, Anderson, Frank. >> They're doing our hair, they're touching up makeup. They're helping me clean my teeth, staying hydrated. >> We look good because of you. >> And the guests. Thanks for coming on and spending time with us. And of course the sponsors, again, we can't do it without the sponsors. If you're watching this and you're a sponsor, support theCUBE, it helps people get what they need. And also we're do a lot more segments around community and a lot more educational stuff. >> Savannah: Yeah. So we're going to do a lot more in the EU and beyond. So thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. And thank you to everyone. Thank you to the community, thank you to theCUBE community and thank you for tuning in, making it possible for us to have somebody to talk to on the other side of the camera. My name is Savannah Peterson for the last time in Detroit, Michigan. Thanks for tuning into theCUBE. >> Okay, we're done. (bright upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone, theCUBE coverage here at AWS re:Mars 2022. I'm John, your host of the theCUBE. re:Mars, part of the three re big events, re:Invent is the big one, re:Inforce the security, re:MARS is the confluence of industrial space, of automation, robotics and machine learning. Got a great guest here, Muhammad Faisal senior consultant solutions architect at Capgemini. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So we, you just we're hearing the classes we had with the professor from Okta ML from Washington. So he's in the weeds on machine learning. He's down getting dirty with all the hardcore, uncoupling it from hardware. Machine learning has gone really super nova in the past couple years. And this show points to the tipping point where machine learning's driving space, it's driving robotics industrial edge at unprecedented rates. So it's kind of moving from the old I don't want to say old, couple years ago and the legacy AI, I mean, old school AI is kind of the same new school with a twist it's just modernized and has faster, cheaper, smaller chips. >> Yeah. I mean, but there is a change also in the way it's working. So you had the classical AI, where you are detecting something and then you're making an action. You are perceiving something, making an action, you're detecting something, and you're assuming something that has been perceived. But now we are moving towards more deeper learning, deep. So AI, where you have to train your model to do things or to detect things and hope that it will work. And there's like, of course, a lot of research going on into explainable AI to help facilitate that. But that's where the challenges come into play. >> Well, Muhammad , first let's take, what do you do over there? Talk about your role specifically. You're doing a lot of student architecting around AI machine learning. What's your role? What's your focus. >> Yeah. So we basically are working in automotive to help OEMs and tier-one suppliers validate ADAS functions that they're working on. So advanced driving assistance systems, there are many levels that are, are when we talk about it. So it can be something simple, like, you know, a blind spot detection, just a warning function. And it goes all the way. So SAE so- >> So there's like the easy stuff and then the hard stuff. >> Muhammad : Exactly. >> Yeah. >> That's what you're getting at. >> Yeah. Yeah. And, and the easy stuff you can test validate quite easily because if you get it wrong. >> Yeah. >> The impact is not that high. The complicated stuff, if you have it wrong, then that can be very dangerous. (John laughs) >> Well, I got to say the automotive one was one was that are so fascinating because it's been so archaic and just in the past recent years, and Tesla's the poster child for this. You see that you go, oh my God, I love that car. I want to have a software driven car. And it's amazing. And I don't get a Tesla on now because that's, it's more like I should have gotten it earlier. Now I'm going to just hold my ground. >> Everyone has- >> Everyone's got it in Palo Alto. I'm not going to get another car, no way. So, but you're starting to see a lot of the other manufacturers, just in the past five years, they're leveling up. It may not be as cool and sexy as the Tesla, but it's, they're there. And so what are they dealing with when they talk about data and AI? What's the, what's some of the challenges that you're seeing that they're grappling with in terms of getting things integrated, developing pipelines, R and D, they wrangling data. Take us through some of the things. >> Muhammad: I mean, like when I think about the challenges that autonomous or the automakers are facing, I can think of three big ones. So first, is the amount of data they need to do their training. And more importantly, the validation. So we are talking about petabytes or hundred of petabytes of data that has to be analyzed, validated, annotated. So labeling to create gen, ground truth processed, reprocessed many times with every creation of a new software. So that is a lot of data, a lot of computational power. And you need to ensure that all of the processing, all of handling of the data allows you complete transparency of what is happening to the data, as well as complete traceability. So your, for home allocations, so approval process for these functions so that they can be released in cars that can be used on public roads. You need to have traceability. Like you can, you are supposed to be able to reproduce the data to validate your work that was done. So you can, >> John: Yeah >> Like, prove that your function is successful or working as expected. So this, the big data is the first challenge. I see that all the automotive makers are tackling. The second big one I see is understanding how much testing is enough. So with AI or with classical approach, you have certain requirements, how a function is supposed to work. You can test that with some test cases based on your architecture, and you have a successful or failed result. With deep learning, it gets more complicated. >> John: What are they doing with deep learning? Give an example of some of things. >> I mean, so you are, you need to then start thinking about statistics that I will test enough data with like a failure rate of potentially like 0.0, 0.1%. How much data do I need to test to make sure that I am achieving that rate. So then we are talking about, in terms of statistics, which requires a lot of data, because the failure rate that we want to have is so low. And it's not only like, failure in terms of that something is always detected, and if it's there, but it's also having like, a low false positive rate. So you are only detecting objects which are there and not like, phantom objects. >> What's some of the trends you're seeing across the client base, in terms of the patterns that they're all kind of, what, where's the state of their mindset and position with AI and some of the work they're doing, are they feeling, you feel like they're all crossed over across the chasm so to speak, in terms of executing, are they still in experimental mode in driving with the full capabilities is conservative or is it progressive? >> Muhammad: I mean, it's a mixture of both. So I'm in German automotive where I'm from, there is for functions, which are more complicated ones. There's definitely hesitancy to release them too early in the car, unless we are sure that they are safe. But of course, for functions which are assisting the drivers everyday usage they are widely available. Like one of the things like, so when we talk about this complex function. >> John: Highly available or available? >> Muhammad: I would say highly available. >> Higher? Is that higher availability and highly available. >> Okay. Yeah. (both laughing) >> Yeah, so. >> I know there's a distinction. >> Yeah. I mean >> I bring up as a joke cuz of the Jedi contract. (Muhammad laughs) >> I mean, in like, our architecture. So when we are developing our solution, high availability is one of our requirements. It is highly available, but the ADAS functions are now available in more and more cars. >> John: Well, latency, man. I mean, it's kind of a joke of storage, but it's a storage joke, but you know, it's latency, you got it, okay. (Muhammad laughs) But these are decisions that have to be made. >> Muhammad: They... >> I mean. >> Muhammad: I mean, they are still being made. >> So I mean, we are... >> John: Good. >> We haven't reached like, level five, which is the highest level of autonomous driving yet on public roads. >> John: That's hard. That's hard to do. >> Yeah. And I mean, the biggest difference, like, as you go above these levels is in terms of availability. So are they these functions? >> John: Yeah. >> Can they handle all possible scenarios or are they only available in certain scenarios? And of course the responsibility. So, it's, in the end, so with Tesla, you would be like, if you had a one you would be the person who is in control or responsible to monitor it. >> John: Yeah. But as we go >> John: Actually the reason I don't have a Tesla all my family would want one. I don't want to get anyone a Tesla. >> But I mean, but that's the sort the liabilities is currently on you, if like, you're not monitoring. >> Allright, so, talk about AWS, the relationship that Capgemini has with AWS, obviously, the partnerships there, you're here and this show is really a commitment to, this is a future to me, this is the future. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> This is it. All right here, industrial, innovation's going to come massive. Back-office cloud, done deal. Data centers, hybrid somewhat multi-cloud, I guess. But hybrid is a steady state in the back-office cloud, game over. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> Amazon, Azure, Google, Alibaba done. So super clouds underneath. Great. This is a digital transformation in the industrial area. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> This is the big thing. What's your relationship with AWS >> Muhammad: So, as I mentioned, the first challenge, data, like, we have so much data, so much computational power and it's not something that is always needed. You need it like on demand. And this is where like a hyperscale or cloud provider, like AWS, can be the key to achieve, like, the higher, the acceleration that we are providing to our customers using our technology built on top of AWS services. We did a breakout session, this during re:MARS, where we demonstrated a couple of small tools that we have developed out of our offering. One of them was ability to stream data from the vehicle that is collecting data worldwide. So during the day when we did it from Vegas, driving on the strip, as well as from Germany, and while we are while this data is uploaded, it's at the same time real time anonymized to make sure it you're privacy aligned with the, the data privacy >> Of course. Yeah. That's hard to do right there. >> Yeah. And so the faces are blurred. The licenses are blurred. We also, then at the same time can run object detection. So we have real time monitoring of what our feed is doing worldwide. And... >> John: Do you, just curious, do you do that blurring? Is that part of a managed service, you call an API or is that built into the go? >> Muhammad: So from like part of our DSV, we have many different service offerings, so data production, data test strategy orchestration. So part of data production is worldwide data collection. And we can then also offer data management services, which include then anonymization data, quality check. >> John: And that's service you provide. >> Yeah. >> To the customer. Okay. Got it. Okay. >> So of course, like, in collaboration with the customer, so our like, platform is very modular. Microservices based the idea being if the customer already has a good ML model for anonymization, we can plug it into our platform, running on AWS. If they want to use it, we can develop one or we can use one of our existing ones or something off the shelf or like any other supplier can provide one as well. And we all integrate. >> So you are, you're tight with Amazon web services in terms of your cloud, your service. It's a cloud. >> Yeah. >> It's so Capgemini Super Cloud, basically. >> Exactly. >> Okay. So this we call we call it Super Cloud, we made that a thing and re:Invent Charles Fitzgerald would disagree but we will debate him. It's a Super Cloud, but okay. You got your Super Cloud. What's the coolest thing that you think you're doing right now that people should pay attention to. >> I mean, the cool thing that we are currently working on, so from the keynote today, we talked about also synthetic data for validation. >> John: Now That was phenomenal. So that was phenomenal. >> We are working on digital twin creation. So we are capturing data in real world creating a virtual identity of it. And that allows you the freedom to create multiple scenarios out of it. So that's also something where we are using machine learning to determine what are the parameters you need to change between, or so, you have one scenario, such as like, the cut-in scenario and you can change. >> John: So what scenario? >> A cut-in scenario. So someone is cutting in front of you or overtake scenario. And so, I mean, in real world, someone will do it in probably a nicer way, but of course, in, it is possible, at some point. >> Cognition to the cars. >> Yeah. >> It comes up as a vehicle. >> I mean, at some point some might, someone would be very aggressive with it. We might not record it. >> You might be able to predict too. I mean, the predictions, you could say this guy's weaving, he's a potential candidate. >> It it is possible. Yes. But I mean, but to, >> That's a future scenario. >> Ensure that we are testing these scenarios, we can translate a real world scenario into a digital world, change the parameters. So the distance between those two is different and use ML. So machine learning to change these parameters. So this is exciting. And the other thing we are... >> That is pretty cool. I will admit that's very cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. The other thing we like are trying to do is reduce the cost for the customer in the end. So we are collecting petabytes of data. Every time they make updates to the software, they have to re-simulate it or replay this data, so that they can- >> Petabytes? >> Petabytes of data. And, and physically sometimes on a physical hardware in loop device. And then this >> That's called a really heavy edge. You got to move, you don't want to be moving that around the Amazon cloud. >> Yeah. That that's, that's the challenge. And once we have replayed this or re-simulated it. we still have to calculate the KPIs out of it. And what we are trying to do is optimize this test orchestration, so that we are minimizing the REAP simulation. So you don't want the data to be going to the edge, >> Yeah. >> Unnecessarily. And once we get this data back to optimize the way we are doing the calculation, so you're not calculating- >> There's a huge data, integrity management. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> New kind of thing going on here, it's kind of is it new or is it? >> Muhammad: I mean, it's- >> Sounds new to me. >> The scale is new, so- >> Okay, got it. >> The management of the data, having the whole traceability, that has been in automotive. So also Capgemini involved in aerospace. So in aerospace. >> Yeah. >> Having this kind of high, this validation be very strictly monitored is norm, but now we have to think about how to do it on this large scale. And that's why, like, I think that's the biggest challenge and hopefully what we are trying to, yeah, solve with our DSV offering. >> All right, Muhammad, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I really appreciate it. Great way to close out re:MARS, our last interview our the show. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. >> I mean like just one last comment, like, so I think in automotive, like, so part of the automation the future is quite exciting, and I think that's where like- >> John: Yeah. >> It's, we have to be hopeful that like- >> John: Well, the show is all about hope. I mean, you had, you had space, moon habitat, you had climate change, potential solutions. You have new functionality that we've been waiting for. And, you know, I've watch every episode of Star Trek and SkyNet and kind of SkyNet going on air. >> The robots. >> Robots running cubes, robot cubes host someday. >> Yeah. >> You never know. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Okay. That's theCUBE here. Wrapping up re:MARS. I'm John Furrier You're watching theCUBE, stay with us for the next event. Next time. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. This is the Cube's coverage here in Las Vegas. Back at events re Mars, Amazon re Mars. I'm your host, John fur with the cube. Mars stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. It's great event brings together a lot of the industrial space machine learning and all the new changes in scaling up from going on the moon to, you know, doing great machine learning. And we've got two great guests here with kinda called lunar outpost, Justin Sears, CEO, Lauren, man. He's the co-founder and chief strategy officer lunar outpost. They're right next to us, watching their booth. Love the name, gentlemen. Welcome to the cube. >>Yeah. Thanks for having us, John. >>All right. So lunar outpost, I get the clues here. Tell us what you guys do. Start with that. >>Absolutely. So lunar outpost, we're a company based outta Colorado that has two missions headed to the moon over the course of the next 24 months. We're currently operating on Mars, which forest will tell you a little bit more about here in a second. And we're really pushing out towards expanding the infrastructure on the lunar surface. And then we're gonna utilize that to provide sustainable access to other planetary bodies. >>All right, far as teeing it up for you. Go, how cool is this? We don't, we wanna use every minute. What's the lunar surface look like? What's the infrastructure roads. You gonna pave it down. You what's going on. Well, >>Where we're going. No one has ever been. So, um, our first mission is going to Shackleton connecting Ridge on the south pole, the moon, and that's ripe to add infrastructure such as landing pads and other things. But our first Rover will be primarily driving across the surface, uh, exploring, uh, what the material looks like, prospecting for resources and testing new technologies. >>And you have a lot of technology involved. You're getting data in, you're just doing surveillance. What's the tech involved there. >>Yeah. So the primary technology that we're demonstrating is a 4g network for NOK. Um, we're providing them mobility services, which is basically like the old Verizon commercial. Can you hear me now? Uh, where the Rover drives farther and farther away from the Lander to test their signal strength, and then we're gonna have some other payloads ride sharing along with us for the ride >>Reminds me the old days of wifi. We used to call it war drive and you go around and try to find someone's wifi hotspot <laugh> inside the thing, but no, this is kind of cool. It brings up the whole thing. Now on lunar outpost, how big is the company? What's how what's to some of the stats heres some of the stats. >>Absolutely. So lunar outpost, 58 people, uh, growing quite quickly on track to double. So any of you watching, you want a job, please apply <laugh>. But with lunar outpost, uh, very similar to how launch companies provide people access to different parts of space. Lunar outpost provides people access to different spots on planetary bodies, whether it's the moon, Mars or beyond. So that's really where we're starting. >>So it's kinda like a managed service for all kinds of space utilities. If you kind of think about it, you're gonna provide services. Yeah, >>Absolutely. Yeah. It, it's definitely starting there and, and we're pushing towards building that infrastructure and that long term vision of utilizing space resources. But I can talk about that a little bit more here in a sec. >>Let's get into that. Let's talk about Mars first. You guys said what's going on with >>Mars. Absolutely. >>Yeah. So right now, uh, lunar outpost is part of the science team for, uh, Moxi, which is an instrument on the perseverance Rover. Yeah. Moxi is the first demonstration of space resource utilization on another planet. And what space resource utilization is basically taking resources on another planet, turning them into something useful. What Moxi does is it takes the CO2 from the atmosphere of Mars and atmosphere of Mars is mostly CO2 and it uses a process called solid oxide electrolysis to basically strip oxygen off of that CO2 to produce oh two and carbon monoxide. >>So it's what you need to self sustain on the surface. >>Exactly. It's not just sustaining, um, the astronauts, but also for producing oxygen for propellant. So it'll actually produce, um, it's a, it's a technology that'll produce a propellant for return rockets, um, to come back for Mars. So >>This is the real wildcard and all this, this, this exploration is how fast can the discoveries invent the new science to provide the life and the habitat on the surface. And that seems to be the real focus in the, in the conversations I heard on the keynote as well, get the infrastructure up so you can kinda land and, and we'll pull back and forth. Um, where are we on progress? You guys have the peg from one zero to 10, 10 being we're going, my grandmother's going, everyone's going to zero. Nothing's moving. >>We're making pretty rapid >>Progress. A three six, >>You know, I'll, I'll put it on an eight, John an >>Eight, I'll put it on >>Eight. This is why the mission force was just talking about that's launching within the next 12 months. This is no longer 10 years out. This is no longer 20 years away, 12 months. And then we have mission two shortly after, and that's just the beginning. We have over a dozen Landers that are headed to line surface this decade alone and heavy lift Landers and launchers, uh, start going to the moon and coming back by 2025. >>So, and you guys are from Colorado. You mentioned before you came on camera, right with the swap offices. So you got some space in Colorado, then the rovers to move around. You get, you get weird looks when people drive by and see the space gear. >>Oh yeah, definitely. So we have, um, you know, we have our facility in golden and our Nevada Colorado, and we'll take the vehicles out for strolls and you'll see construction workers, building stuff, and looking over and saying, what's >>Good place to work too. So you're, you're hiring great. You're doubling on the business model side. I can see a lot of demand. It's cheaper to launch stuff now in space. Is there becoming any rules of engagement relative to space? I don't wanna say verified, but like, you know, yet somehow get to the point where, I mean, I could launch a satellite, I could launch something for a couple hundred grand that might interfere with something legitimate. Do you see that on the radar because you guys are having ease of use so smaller, faster, cheaper to get out there. Now you gotta refine the infrastructure, get the services going. Is there threats from just random launches? >>It's a, it's a really interesting question. I mean, current state of the art people who have put rovers on other planetary bodies, you're talking like $3 billion, uh, for the March perseverance Rover. So historically there hasn't been that threat, but when you start talking about lowering the cost and the access to some of these different locations, I do think we'll get to the point where there might be folks that interfere with large scale operations. And that's something that's not very well defined in international law and something you won't really probably get any of the major space powers to agree to. So it's gonna be up to commercial companies to operate responsibly so we can make that space sustainable. And if there is a bad actor, I think it they'll weed themselves out over time. >>Yeah. It's gonna be of self govern, I think in the short term. Good point. Yeah. What about the technology? Where are we in the technology? What are some of the big, uh, challenges that we're overcoming now and what's that next 20 M stare in terms of the next milestone? Yeah, a tech perspective. >>Yeah. So the big technology technological hurdle that has been identified by many is the ability to survive the LUN night. Um, it gets exceptionally cold, uh, when the sun on the moon and that happens every 14 days for another, for, you know, for 14 days. So these long, cold lunar nights, uh, can destroy circuit boards and batteries and different components. So lunar outpost has invested in developing thermal technologies to overcome this, um, both in our offices, in the United States, but we also have opened a new office in, uh, Luxembourg in Europe. That's focusing specifically on thermal technologies to survive the lunar night, not just for rovers, but all sorts of space assets. >>Yeah. Huge. That's a hardware, you know, five, nine kind of like meantime between failure conversation, right. >><laugh> and it's, it gets fun, right? Because you talk five nines and it's such like, uh, you know, ingrained part of the aerospace community. But what we're pitching is we can send a dozen rovers for the cost of one of these historical rovers. So even if 25% of 'em fail, you still have eight rovers for the cost of one of the old rovers. And that's just the, economy's a scale. >>I saw James Hamilton here walking around. He's one of the legendary Amazonians who built out the data center. You might come by the cube. That's just like what they did with servers. Hey, if one breaks throw it away. Yeah. Why buy the big mainframe? Yeah. That's the new model. All right. So now about, uh, space space, that's a not space space, but like room to move around when you start getting some of these habitats going, um, how does space factor into the size of the location? Um, cuz you got the, to live there, solve some of the thermal problems. How do I live on space? I gotta have, you know, how many people gonna be there? What's your forecast? You think from a mission standpoint where there'll be dozens of people or is it still gonna be small teams? >>Yeah. >>Uh, what's that look like? >>I mean you >>Can guess it's okay. >>I mean, my vision's thousands of people. Yep. Uh, living and working in space because it's gonna be, especially the moon I think is a destination that's gonna grow, uh, for tourism. There's an insane drive from people to go visit a new destination. And the moon is one of the most unique experiences you could imagine. Yep. Um, in the near term for Artis, we're gonna start by supporting the Artis astronauts, which are gonna be small crews of astronauts. Um, you know, two to six in the near term. >>And to answer your question, uh, you know, in a different way, the habitat that we're actually gonna build, it's gonna take dozens of these robotic systems to build and maintain over time. And when we're actually talking, timelines, force talks, thousands of people living and working in space, I think that's gonna happen within the next 10 to 15 years. The first few folks are gonna be on the moon by 2025. And we're pushing towards having dozens of people living and working in space and by 2030. >>Yeah. I think it's an awesome goal. And I think it's doable question I'll have for you is the role of software in all this. I had a conversation with, uh, space nerd and we were talking and, and I said open sources everywhere now in the software. Yeah. How do you repair in space? Does you know, you don't want to have a firmware be down. So send down backhoe back to the United States. The us, wait a minute, it's the planet. I gotta go back to earth. Yeah. To get apart. So how does break fix work in space? How, how do you guys see that problem? >>So this one's actually quite fun. I mean, currently we don't have astronauts that can pick up a or change a tire. Uh, so you have to make robots that are really reliable, right. That can continuously operate for years at a time. But when you're talking about long-term repairs, there's some really cool ideas and concepts about standardization of some of these parts, you know, just like Lu knots on your car, right? Yeah. If everyone has the same Lu knots on their wheel, great. Now I can go change it out. I can switch off different parts that are available on the line surface. So I think we're moving towards, uh, that in the long >>Term you guys got a great company. Love the mission. Final question for both of you is I noticed that there's a huge community development around Mars, living on Mars, living on the moon. I mean, there's not a chat group that clubhouse app used, used to be around just kind of dying. But now it's when the Twitter spaces Reddit, you name it, there's a fanatical fan base that loves to talk about an engineer and kind of a collective intelligence, not, may not be official engineering, but they just love to talk about it. So there's a huge fan base for space. How does someone get involved if they really want to dive in and then how do you nurture that audience? How does that, is it developing? What's your take on this whole movement? It's it's beyond just being interested. It's it's become, I won't say cult-like but it's been, there's very, a lot of people in young people interested in space. >>Yeah. >>Yeah. There's, there's a whole, lots of places to get involved. There's, you know, societies, right? Like the Mar society there's technical committees, um, there's, you know, even potentially learning about these, you know, taking a space, resources master program and getting into the field and, and joining the company. So, um, we really, uh, thrive on that energy from the community and it really helps press us forward. And we hope to, uh, have a way to take everyone with us on the mission. And so stay tuned, follow our website. We'll be announcing some of that stuff soon. >>Awesome. And just one last, uh, quick pitch for you, John, I'll leave you with one thought. There are two things that space has an infinite amount of the first is power and the second is resources. And if we can find a way to access either of those, we can fundamentally change the way humanity operates. Yeah. So when you're talking about living on Mars long term, we're gonna need to access the resource from Mars. And then long term, once we get the transportation infrastructure in place, we can start bringing those resources back here to earth. So of course there are gonna be those people that sign up for that first mission out to Mars with SpaceX. But, uh, we'd love for folks to join on with us at lunar outpost and be a part of that kind of next leap accessing those resources. >>I love the mission, as always said, once in the cube, everything in star Trek will be invented someday. <laugh>, we're almost there except for the, the, uh, the transporter room. We don't have that done yet, but almost soon be there. All right. Well, thanks for coming. I, I really appreciate Justin for us for sharing. Great story. Final minute. Give a plug for the company. What are you guys looking for? You said hiring. Yep. Anything else you'd like to share? Put a plug in for lunar outpost. >>Absolutely. So we're hiring across the board, aerospace engineering, robotics engineering, sales marketing. Doesn't really matter. Uh, we're doubling as a company currently around 58 people, as we said, and we're looking for the top people that want to make an impact in aerospace. This is truly a unique moment. First time we've ever had continuous reliable operations. First time NASA is pushing really hard on the public private partnerships for commercial companies like ours to go out and create this sustainable presence on the moon. So whether you wanna work with us, our partner with us, we'd be excited to talk to you and, uh, yeah. Please contact us at info. Lunar outpost.com. >>We'll certainly follow up. Thanks for coming. I love the mission we're behind you and everyone else is too. You can see the energy it's gonna happen. It's the cube coverage from re Mars new actions happening in space on the ground, in the, on the moon you name it's happening right here in Vegas. I'm John furrier. Thanks for watching.

>>Hi there. Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm John Farah, your host of the queue here in Palo Alto, California in our studios for cube conversation and remotely drew showcase VP of product management at Dell technologies. This segment is about autonomous operations and moving beyond the hype into practice reality of what's going on in automation. Drew, thank you for coming on this cube conversation >>And great job. Thanks John. >>So, uh, uh, automation, autonomous operation, everyone sees the Tesla's a self-driving cars. We even heard words like self-driving store self-driving data center, self-driving cloud. It's kind of a buzz word. It's been hyped up a lot, but it's becoming much more of a reality as people start to think about how to automate a way the, the manual undifferentiated tasks and move the value into either writing better software or into operations. This is kind of a hot topic. Uh, why, why is it so hot right now? What's your take? >>Yeah, I think the answer to this lies really in the digital transformation that every company is having to embrace right now. And I use the word company, but everything I described here would apply to public entities as well. I have plenty of conversations with governments and universities and so forth. And the leverage that cost share that I've heard used before. If you're not a technology company and you don't think you need to become one, you're not going to be around for very long because every business to business, business to consumer, even consumer to consumer interaction is becoming digitized. And so, you know, making all those connections, digital based takes human talent. And that's really at the core of why this is a hot topic. You know, anybody who's going to try and hire that talent right now, or who's actively trying is going to tell you the competition is fierce. >>It's a sellers market, so to speak in terms of getting capable it talent. And so this topic of automation and autonomous operations has an incredibly pragmatic component to it because you can't hire your way through digital transformation. Uh, if you're an element of your strategy is going to have to involve making that talent more efficient. And so along with good business processes, automation is going to be a prerequisite to make any progress on your digital transformation within a finite set up of it talent. So, you know, to your question, why is it a hot topic? I, you know, look at every entities, digital transformation is going to dependent on, >>You know, you've been around, uh, seeing a lot of ways of innovation come and go. You know, every one has its own kind of like unique characteristics. Now we're seeing with this transformation, this digital transformation, a lot of things kind of coming together. So it's always been the classic people, process technologies, you know, the three kind of areas people talk about, but if you look at what cloud and now edge and distributed computing is bringing into the equation, companies are identifying competitive advantages to processes that can be software enabled or defined or automated and where their workflows are, the IP of company. So this is kind of like a new revelations. Like, I mean, Ross has always been great with your manufacturing, whatever that was in place, but now the scale of that in digital with the apps out there, this has been a big focus of the modernization of applications. What's your, what's your reaction to that? >>Yeah, no, no, very much so it's, um, you bring up an excellent point kind of all the focus and attention that corporations have given to these other processes for time now that you know, this, this whole, um, you know, online, digital digitize, modern operations model, if it's flowing into that as well. And you know, it's, you know, at the end of the day to, to the, some of the points that you made here, you know, are, are you and your whatever business or entity that you're supporting, you know, are you pushing out the lovers levels of features and capabilities that your internal customers or your external customers need at the pace and velocity that you need to that's, that's where competition is going to take place. That's where business is going to be won or lost. And so I think seeing an indexing of the processes around that and our customers starting to think more about that is critical. Just as much to your point, as you know, uh, you know, the, this technology strategy. Um, and, and how are you going to engage, you know, your customers through a, uh, uh, a modern, you know, digitize processes is important for the factory as the factory line for Ford motor company is in terms of how they're going to be interfacing with their customers. So, um, yeah, very, very timely. And certainly top of mind. >>Yeah. And a lot of CEO's and customers that you work with. I know you guys are having a lot of conversations. We've talked with you guys in the past, across all of Dale, actually Dell technologies, and it's the same conversation. It's distributed computing and automation, AI machine linear, all factoring in workflows becoming competitive advantage. Now we're into this autonomous phase, which is like self running or healing or all these new, new stuff. When customers think about this, and we've heard CEOs talk about strategies, don't touch the white hot core until you get to the edges first, put your toe in the water, different approaches to tackling autonomous operators. What sort of, um, strategies and results should customers expect as they go in and start jumping into the, into the, into the pool, if you will, you know, as they start, >>I'm glad you asked this question because the subject of automation gets lumped in with a lot of topics with similar, you know, buzzwords of AI and machine learning and self-healing, and self-driving while these technologies like that make autonomous operations. In reality, we run the risk of having the underlying technology, dominate the discussion, and that's not where it needs to go in, in, in my discussions with customers, they don't care if the underlying technology is machine learning or deep learning, you know, it doesn't really matter. They want to see tangible out. So, and so when we talk about the kind of results to expect, there's some pretty simple questions to ask is, you know, that I, you know, I engage with any CIO or any company, a person in an it operations capacity is, is my, is my team spending, you know, how much time is my team spending on updates or the updates taking place within tighten up windows? >>Is my team getting the root cause of issues faster? Is my team closing out tickets faster is my business deploying more applications per week, per month, per year. These are the kinds of things that really matter. I mean, this is where the rubber meets the road on this, and, you know, the way we approach this is as we deliver more capabilities and features in this space of autonomy, we're constantly engaging our customers in a before and after state to understand if we really moved the needle. And so we, we, we do collect data on this front to see if we are delivering tangible results. And you know, what we've seen just in the past year is when we do this and do it right, we're seeing issue resolution times dropping like 50 to 90%. We're seeing time spent on admin tasks reduced by like 85%. We're seeing operations cost dropped by a third, you know, applications being pushed out, almost doubling. So these are, these are the real benefits, right? If you, if you can free up and pull the human component out of some of these, you know, necessary, but not necessarily, um, you know, value added tasks, uh, in your day to day operations, this is the kind of results customers can see. >>I want to ask you about your recent event hosted by mark Hamill, but about the framework you guys announced. But before that, I want to ask you, I got your here about supply chain. I mean, honestly, Dell made, made its bones in supply chain and innovation going back to the early days, Michael's book is awesome and he talks about being successful. Um, but you started to hear words like software supply chain is starting to hear words like the word supply chain is now becoming lingua franca in business, not just on moving goods here and there. Digital supply chains are emerging and it's impacting developers because they have to secure them. And there's also mindset of an operational mindset, our systems thinking, uh, with as well as design thinking, but mainly systems thinking. So this is not for the, you know, supply chain geeks out there. This is like hitting me. And she, this notion of supply chain doesn't promise operations hit to the core of this. >>Yeah. It, um, yes, it should, because ideally what you're doing is your autonomous operations strategy is contemplating the fact that that supply chain is going to be fluid. Like, you know, and, and so, you know, just think about the, the, the, you know, the, the, the underlying infrastructure and the choices that you have being, um, on, um, on bare metal on VM, based on container-based, there's different distributions within that. We then start to think about, you know, how I might orchestrate that then the different platforms that we have there around configuration management or application orchestration, um, you're right. That supply chain does become pretty complex. And so, um, us as a, as a provider to customers that are having to do with that software supply chain, um, you, what we need to be cognizant of is the fact that, you know, we can't dictate that always, we have to assume there's going to be changes in there. And so that certainly does influence our approach and trying to make that as, um, you know, friendly to a heterogeneous environment that we know is going to change going forward. Awesome. >>And we're going to see more of that kind of thinking and apply into the people skill, skill development, and also software automation to offload that. But okay. Back to the event you guys had mark Hamill, who's, I'm a huge fan of star wars. Uh, the kid I master, um, represents the old guard, you know, let's do it now, looking at the cloud. Um, you guys announced that that event, this autonomous operations framework, could you talk about what that is and why is it important? >>Yeah, so to begin with, you know, if you had told me when I was watching mark Hamill as a child in a movie theater, that he would one day help me do my job, I would have gone insane. But anyways, um, that, that aside that, that autonomous operations framework, it's built around six levels of automation. And we can talk, take the cue from the society of automotive engineers and work that they had done around autonomous cars, but we believed that we needed something distinct for, for it. And, you know, it starts off with level zero, which is no automation, look at your there's a human doing absolutely everything. And you progress up through five subsequent levels of operator assisted, partial automation, conditional automation, level five, being full autonomy. There's a set of expectations with each of these. And look as you progress up the level of involvement of humans in the decision, and the reaction is decreased each and every step, and some might say, well, so what all you did is document a framework. >>Well, it's important to both our customers and then our internal teams that have to deliver this. And let me just elaborate on that a little bit. Why it's important to customers is that automation implies trust. As, as, as you know, you as my infrastructure provider Dell, do I trust you to automate something that is typically involved my own team, assessing what it is the problem to be and determining the remediation action. Am I willing to hand over the keys to that to you? Uh, you have to earn that and you earn that by progressing up through these different levels. And, you know, if I can't trust you with, you know, conditional automation, I'm not going to trust you with full autonomy. So the customer is, you know, there's a, there's a psychology that's involved here that they have to progress through these levels. And so you have to be deliberate, I'd say as well, you need to recognize that not all customers are going to progress through that at the same pace. >>So it's important that when we think about how we're going to provide this, yeah, we want to have an option for the highest level of autonomy as possible, but that doesn't mean all customers are going to be ready. So we need to think about, you know, how do you provide the N minus one and minus two levels of capabilities. So we're meeting customers where they are in terms of their comfort and, and embracing this idea of autonomous. And then, you know, for us internally, that's the customer's perspective for us. Then this is a, a great set of guideposts for our teams to think about how we advance. And so when we have a feature, um, that, that we're deploying and making available, let's say it's sort of a workload contention feature, right? We then think about that about, okay, how do we start to advance up through the different levels here? We know workload contention is an important problem, but how do we start to take the human out of that equation in a methodical way to advance them through these levels? So we give a suite of options to our customers to do without that. >>True. Talk to me about your reaction with customers. Cause I know there's a spectrum of customers that are leaning in, some are putting the toe in the water, so to speak somewhat more information, some are just looking at the architecture of how they're going to scale post COVID and then have a growth strategy for their business, what feedback you're getting, where are, how would you put the customer's mindset? Um, and, and can you describe the makeup of the customer profile for >>Yeah. You know, I would say, um, you know, there, you know, when we were talking about these six levels, there, there were about halfway up in general. If you, if you ask me to kind of do the bell curve, right. And in terms of comfort level, and we'll, we'll call it like partial or conditional automation there where it's like, you know, in general, it's like, okay, we, we, we know we need to take some of the humans out of this, but why don't we start by, you know, you recommending what the remediation is. I'll take a look at it and decide if I want to implement it or recommend the remediation and give me a button I can click to, to, to act upon it. So there's still some level of human checks and balances in there, but we've taken a lot of the grunt work out of it, so to speak, um, to do it. >>But that's where they are. They, they certainly aspire to move up again, back to this resource crunch, competing for talent than I can't keep hiring people to keep up with the work here and what they want to do is work with us to, okay, so how do I evolve this to start to prove it then? And this is where we can kind of go back to some of these things of the machine learning and so forth, where it's up to us as we think about how we design the systems around this is how can we start to observe how customers are responding to our recommendations? Are they always taking on, are they modifying them so we can get smarter in terms of what it is we're going to suggest and what we're just we're going to automate so that we're doing it around their values, not necessarily ours, that's a really important component here. This value based approach that we need to embrace, because, you know, you know, what, what might be considered an acceptable set of circumstances for a financial services company? You know, it might not be for a manufacturing company. And so that's something that we need to take into account in the overall design. >>Yeah. And also to your point earlier about meeting them where they are, is super important. And I think what's interesting, I've been watching over the past five Dell technology worlds, um, the tradition transition of Dell becoming much stronger and, and, and cohesive in each element of the end to end mix if you will, of hybrid. Um, and that's been a big boost. Um, and so as customers go, okay, I still got to get better. So they get, they're taking this way. And some, some customers, you know what I need to do more, but you guys are running these companies with your technology. So it's not like as easy, it's not a clean sheet of paper. In some cases, it is when you have new projects, they go cloud native and they just ended, they deploy, uh, and they have an edge and all that good stuff. But in terms of making autonomous operations real in terms of your roadmap, as you guys evolve, um, how close are you to having that secret formula? Or do you have the secret formula now? What is it? >>Yeah, so the short answer is, you know, do we have the, the, the secret sauce that we do? And, but that doesn't mean we're done like, so, so back to the framework, like nobody in the industry is at full autonomy. So let's just be really honest. There it's a, it's an aspirational north star that we, we all have to make progress to, but you know, what that means is you can take something that has a level of autonomy today. And let's take something like workload contention analysis that I brought up earlier, where, you know, we can identify where we've got workloads competing for shared resources that need to be redistributed. You know, today we flagged that contention and let the customer determine remediation. So, Hey, we're, we're letting you know you've got a problem. Um, you know, they're going to determine that remediation based upon their first hand knowledge of the environment and applying the values that they have to determine the best path, but, you know, our task is then to gain insight on that and how our customers are choosing to remediate, translate those into rule-based decisions for an explicit outcome that kind of advances you up one step, moving beyond rules. >>You start to understand more generalized outcome sot. That's a conditional automation. And then you move beyond that to get to a service level based objective, which would be high autonomy. So you're there, but this, this framework clearly calls out like this is a journey like there's no, you never really get to the end, so to speak. And that's fine, right? That, that Nirvana of full autonomy, we all should aspire to it, but we are going to be very, very deliberate in terms of how we take things like this and advance them up through the framework to make it more real. And again, give customers choice as they're willing to progress up through that trust will be there with an option for them when they, when they want to stay back with where they are, because that's where their comfort is. We'll be able to meet them there. >>Yeah. And I think also that be fair to anyone who may look at this as, you know, kind of like maybe future every, every customer you have is different operationally. I mean, you have, again, you mentioned financial FinTech, they're huge. If financial services area versus say, you know, classic enterprise, I mean, it could be insurance or whatever, a lot of legacy, and now new technologies coming in, this is all part of the, the opportunity is to kind of bring that together. Um, and it's not going to switch. >>Yeah, it is. And I'll just, you know, the one last plug for why I feel great about doing this as Dell technologies is I think about the, the breadth of what we cover in that environment, you know, with the, the breadth of our portfolio and the level of insights that we can have by kind of contemplating all the impacts across that typology that we span. Um, it's super exciting in terms of kind of what we can really unlock here in terms of value from an end date >>Drew. It's great to chat with you. I have one quick, more important question. Most important question is, did you get a selfie with mark Hamill Come on in every star wars? I mean, I'm a huge star wars fan, of course, star wars, star Trek are all on the same tier. Yeah. >>Uh, no, sorry. I missed out. I was, I was virtual for that one. So, um, although I probably could have done a screenshot on zoom or something like that and claimed it. So, but the >>Well great to have you on the queue. Thanks for your insight. I think this is a great area. Autonomous operations are moving beyond the hide, was seeing evidence in it. You seeing us the on clean sheet of paper, Greenfield opportunities, and then as it comes into the white hot core enterprise, um, even more trust is needed. Even more reliability track record you guys doing great work. Thank you so much for sharing on the cube. Great. Thank you, John. Okay. This is the cube. I'm Sean for your host for this cube conversation. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this Cube Conversation about women in tech and women in cybersecurity, two things I'm very passionate about. Lisa Martin here, with two guests, Debbie Briggs joins us, the Area Vice President, and Chief Security Officer at NETSCOUT, and Tyler Cohen Wood is here as well, the Founder and CEO of MyConnectedHealth. Ladies, it's an honor to have you on the program. I'm excited to talk to you. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Completely agree. Tyler and I talked a couple of minutes last week and she has a lot to offer to this. >> I know, I was looking at both of your backgrounds. Very impressive. Tyler, starting with you. I see that you are a nationally recognized Cybersecurity Intelligence, National Security Expert, and former Director of Cyber Risk Management for AT&T. And I also saw that you just won a Top 50 Women in Tech Influencers to Follow for 2021 Award. Congratulations, that's amazing. I would love to know way back in the day, how did you even first become interested in tech? >> Well, it was kind of inevitable that I would go into something like tech because as a kid, I was kind of nerdy. I was obsessed with "Star Trek". I would catalog my "Star Trek" tapes by Stardate. I was just really into it. But when I was in college, I mean, it was the late 90's. Cybersecurity just really wasn't a thing. So I went into music and I worked for a radio station. I loved it, but the format of the radio station changed and I wanted to do something different. And I thought, well, computers. I'll move to San Francisco, and I'm sure I can get a job, 'cause they were hiring anyone with a brain, 'cause it was really the dot com boom. And that's really how I got into it. It was just kind of one of those things. (laughs) >> Did you have, was it like network connection, going from music to tech is quite a jump? >> It's a huge jump. It was, but you know, I was young. I was still fresh out of school. I was really interested in learning and I really wanted to get involved in cyber in some capacity, because I became really fascinated with it. So it was just kind of one of those things, that just sort of happened. >> What an interesting talk about a zig-zaggy path. That's a very, very interesting one. And I have to talk about music with you later. That would be interesting. And Debbie, you also have, as Tyler does, 20 years plus experience in cybersecurity. You've been with NETSCOUT since '04. Were you always interested in tech? Did you study engineering or computer science in school, Debbie? >> Yeah, so I think my interest in tech, just like Tyler started at a very young age. I was always interested in how things worked and how people worked. And some day over a drink, I will tell you some funny stories about things I took apart in my parents house, to figure out how it worked. (Lisa and Tyler laughing) They still don't know it. So I guess I- >> I love that. >> I just love that putting it back together, but I took a more traditional route than Tyler did. I do have a degree in Computer Science, went to school a little bit earlier than Tyler. What I would say is, when I was in college, the Computer Science Center was in the basement of the library and we had these really tiny windows and they sort of hit you in the dark. And I think it was my senior year and I went, "I don't want to sit in a room by myself and write code all day and talk to no one." So, you know, I'm a senior and I'm like, "Okay, I got to, this is not, I did not want to write code all day." And so I happened to fall into a great company and moved onto PCs. And from there went to messaging, to networking and into that, I fell into cybersecurity. So I took that more traditional route and I think I've done every job in IT, except for programming, which is what I really got my degree in. >> But you realized early on, you know, "I don't quite think this is for me." And that's an important thing for anybody in any career, to really listen to your gut. It's telling you something. I love how you both got into cybersecurity, which is now, especially in the last 18 months, with what we've seen with the threat landscape, such an incredible opportunity for anyone. But I'd like to know there's not a lot of women in tech, as we know we've been talking about this for a long time now. We've got maybe a quarter of women at the technology roles are filled by women. Tyler, talk to me about some of the challenges that you faced along your journey to get where you are today. >> Well, I mean, you know, like I said, when I started, it was like 1999, 2000. And there were even less women in cybersecurity and in these tech roles than there are now. And you know, it was difficult because, you know, I remember at my first job, I was so interested in learning about Unix and I would learn everything, I read everything about it. And I ended up getting promoted over all of my male colleagues. And you know, it was really awkward because there was the assumption, they would just say things like, "Oh, well you got that because you're a woman." And that was not the case, but it's that type of stereotyping, you know, that we've had to deal with in this industry. Now I do believe that is changing. And I've seen a lot of evidence of that. We're getting there, but we're not there yet. >> And I agree. I agree completely with what Tyler said. You know, when I started, you were the only woman in the room, you got promoted over your male counterparts. You know, I would say even 10 years ago, you know, someone was like, "Well, you could go for any CISCO role and you'd get the job because you're a woman." And I've had to go and say, "No, I might get an interview because I'm a woman, but you don't get the job just because, you know, you check a box." You know, some of that is still out there, but Tyler you're right, things are changing. I think, you know, three things that we all need to focus in on to continue to move us forward and get more women into tech is the first thing is we have to start younger. I think by high school, a lot of girls and young women have been turned off by technology. So maybe, we need to start in the middle school and ensuring that we've got young girls interested. The second thing is, is we have to have mentors. And I always say, if you're in the security industry, you have to turn around and help the next person out. And if that person is a woman, that's great, but we have to mentor others. And it can be young girls, it could be young gentlemen, but we need to mentor that next group up. And you know, if you're in the position to offer internships during the summer, we don't have to stay to the traditional role and go, "Oh, let me hire just intern from the you know IT, they're getting degrees in IT." You can get creative. And my best worker right now was an intern that worked for me, was an intern for me six years ago. And she has a degree in Finance, so nontraditional route into cyber security. And the third thing I think we need to do is, is there things the industry could do to change things and make things, I don't want to say even 'cause they're not uneven, but for example, I forget what survey it was, but if a woman reads a job description and I can do half of it, I'm not going to apply because I don't feel I'll qualify, where men, on the other hand, if they can do three out of ten they'll apply. So do we need to look at the way we write job descriptions, and use different words, you know, rather than must have these skills. You know, sort of leave it a little bit open, like here are the skills we'd like you to have, or have, you know, a handful of the following. So soften some of those job descriptions. And the second thing is once we get women in, we have to be a little bit more, I'll say inclusive. So, if you're a high tech company, look at, you know, your sales organization. When you go to big shows, do you pay more attention to men on the floor than women on the floor? If you have a sales event where you get different customers together, is it a golf outing or is it something that's maybe a little bit more inclusive than just male? So those are the three things I think as an industry we have to focus in on, start younger, get them, you know, work on mentorships specifically in cyber, and the third thing is, look at some of the things that we're doing, as companies both in our HR and sales practices. >> That's a great, that last piece of advice, Debbie is fantastic. That's one that I hadn't thought about, but you're right. If a job description is written, for must have all of these things and a woman that goes, "I only got three out of the ten. I'm not going to even get past, you know, the recruiter here." How can we write things differently? I also loved your idea of bringing in people with diverse backgrounds. I've been in marketing for 16 years and I've met very few people that actually have marketing degrees, a lot of people. So you get that diversity of thought. Tyler, what are some of your thoughts about how we can help expand the role of women in technology? Do you agree with some of the things that Debbie said? >> I love what Debbie said. I agree 100%. And I started laughing because I was thinking about all the golf outings that I've been on and I don't play golf. (all laughing) I think that there is an untapped resource because there's a lot of women who are now interested in changing their careers and that's a big pool of people. And I think that making it more accessible and making it so that people understand what the different cyber security or cyber jobs are, because a lot of people just assume that it's coding, or it's, you know, working on AI, but that's not necessarily true. I mean, there's so many different avenues. There's marketing, there's forensics, there's incident response. I mean, I could go on and on and on. And oftentimes if people don't know that these types of jobs exist, they're not even going to look for them. So making that more well-known, what the different types of opportunities are to people, I think that that would help kind of open more doors. >> And that goes along beautifully with what Debbie was talking about with respect to mentorship. And I would even add sponsorship in there, but becoming a sponsor of a younger female, who's maybe considering tech or is already in tech to help her navigate the career. Look for the other opportunities. Tyler, as you mentioned, there's a lot to cybersecurity, that is beyond coding and AI for example. So maybe getting the awareness out there more. Did either of you have sponsors when you were early in your career? Are you a sponsor now? Debbie, let's start with you. >> So, I'll answer your first question. I guess I was really fortunate that my first job out of college, I had an internship and I happened to have a female boss. And so, although we may not have called it sponsorship or mentor, she taught me and showed me that, you know, women can be leaders. And she always believed in us and always pushed us to do things beyond what we may have thought we were capable of. Throughout the years, someone once told me that we should all have our own personal board of directors. You know, a group of people that when we're making a decision, that may be life-changing or we're unsure, rather than just having one mentor, having a group of people that you, that you know, they don't have to be in cybersecurity. Yeah, I want someone that's on my board of directors that maybe, is a specialist in cybersecurity, but having other executives in other companies, that can also give you that perspective. You know, so I've always had a personal board of directors. I think I've had three or four different mentors. Some of them, I went out and found. Some of them I have joined organizations that have been fortunate enough to become not only a mentor, but a mentee. And I've kept those relationships up over three or four years. And all those people are now on my personal board of directors, that, you know, if I have a life-changing question, I've got a group of people that I can go back on. >> That is brilliant advice. I love that having a... Isn't that great Tyler? Having a personal- >> Yes Yes! >> Board of directors, especially as we look at cybersecurity and the cybersecurity skills gap Tyler has been, I think it's in its 5th year now, which is there's so much opportunity. What we saw in the threat landscape in the last 18, 19 months during the pandemic was this explosion and the attack surface, ransomware becoming a word that even my mom knows these days. What do you advise Tyler for, you talked about really making people much more aware of all of the opportunities within cyber, but when you think about how you would get women interested in cybersecurity specifically, what are some of the key pieces of advice you would offer? >> Well, again, I think I love the board of directors. I love that. That is brilliant, but I really think that it is about finding mentors, and it is about doing the research, and really asking questions. Because if you reach out to someone on LinkedIn, you know, they may just not respond, but chances are some someone will and, you know, most people in this community are very willing to help. And, you know, I found that to be great. I mean, I've got my board of directors too. I realize that now. (Debbie laughs) But I also like to help other people as well, that are just kind of entering into the field or if they're changing their careers. And it's not necessarily just women, it's people that are interested in getting into an aspect of this industry. And this is a industry where, you know, you can jump from this, to this, to this, to this. I mean, I think that I've had six different major career shifts still within the cybersecurity realm. So, just because you start off doing one thing doesn't mean that that's what you're going to do forever. There're so many different areas. And it's really interesting. I think about my 11 year old niece and she may very well have a job someday, that doesn't even exist right now. That's how quickly cyber and everything connected is moving. And if you think about it, we are connected, there is a cyber component to every single thing that we do, and that's going to continue to expand and continue to grow. And we need more people to be interested, and to want to get into these careers. And I think also it's important for younger girls to let them know these careers are really fun and they're extremely rewarding. And I mean, I hate to use this as an incentive, but there's also a lot of money that can be made too, and that's an incentive to get, you know, women and girls into these careers as well. >> And Tyler, I think you're right. In addition to that, you're always going to have a job. And I think cyber is a great career for someone that are lifelong learners, because like you said, your 11 year old niece, the job, when she graduates from college, she may have, probably doesn't even exist today. And so I think you have to be a lifelong learner. I think one of the things that people may not be aware of is, you know, for women who may have gone the non-traditional route and got degrees later in life, or took time off to raise children and want to come back to work, cyber security is something that, you know, doesn't have to be a nine to five job. I have, it happens to be a gentlemen on my team, who has to get kids on the bus and off the bus. And so we figured out how, you know, he gets up and he works for a couple hours, puts kids on the bus, is in the office. And then he gets the kids off. And once they've had dinner and gone to bed, he puts in a couple more hours. And I think, you know, people need to be aware of, there is some flexibility, there is flexibility in cyber jobs. I mean, it's not a nine to five job, it's not like banking. Well, if you were teller, and your hours are when the bank is open, cyber is 7/24 and jobs can be flexible. And I think people need to be aware of that. >> I agree on the flexibility front, and people also need to be flexible themselves. I do want to ask you both, we're getting low on time, but I've got to ask you, how do you get the confidence, to be, like you said, back in the day, in the room, maybe the only female and I've been in that as well, even in marketing, product marketing years ago. How do you get the confidence to continue moving forward? Even as someone says, "You're only here because you're a female." Tyler, what's your advice to help young women and young men as well fight any sort of challenges that are coming their way? >> I had a mentor when I first moved to the Defense Intelligence Agency, I had an Office Chief and she said to me, "Tyler, you're a Senior Intelligence Officer, you always take a seat at the table. Do not let anyone tell you that you cannot have a seat at the table." And you know, that was good advice. And I think confidence is great. But courage is something that's much more important, because courage is what leads up to confidence. And you really have to believe in yourself and do things that you know are right for you, not because you think it's going to make other people happy. And I think, you know, as women, it's really finding that courage to be brave and to be strong and to be willing to stand out, you know, alone on something, because it's what you care about and what you believe in. And that's really what helps kind of motivate me. >> I love that courage. Debbie, what are your thoughts? >> (laughs) So I was going to say, this is going to be really hard to believe, but when I was 16 years old, I was so shy that if I went to a restaurant and someone served me stone cold food, I wouldn't say a word. I would just eat it. If I bought something in a store and I didn't like it, I'd refuse, I just couldn't bring myself to go to that customer service desk and return it. And my first job in high school, was it a fast food place. And I worked for a gentleman who was a little bit of a tyrant, but you know, I learned how to get a backbone very quickly. And I would have to say now looking back, he was probably my first mentor without even trying to do that. He mentored me on how to believe in myself and how to stand up for what's right. So, Tyler, I completely agree with you. And you know, that's something that people think when they get a mentorship, sometimes it's someone going to mentor them on, you know, something tactical, something they want to know how to do, but sometimes what you need to be mentored in, could be, "How do I believe in myself?" Or "How do I find the courage to be that the only female in the room?" And I think that is where some of that mentorship comes from and, you know, I think, you know, if we go back to mentoring at the middle school, there's lots of opportunities, career fairs, the first robotically, get the middle school level, gives all of us an opportunity to sort of mentor girls at that level. And for all the guys out there who have daughters, this is, you know, how to... It's not like you can get a parenting checklist, "Teach my kid courage." And Tyler, I love that word, but I think that's something that we all need to aspire to bring out in others. >> I love that. I love that. >> Okay with that, I think I love both of your stories, are zig-zaggy in certain ways, one in a more direct cybersecurity path, Debbie with yours. Tyler, yours, very different coming from the music industry. But you both have such great advice. It's really, I would say, I'm going to add that, open your mind to be open to, you can do anything. As Tyler said, there's a very great possibility that right now the job that your niece who's 11 is going to get in the next 10 years, doesn't exist yet. How exciting is that? To have the opportunity to be open-minded enough and flexible enough to say, "I'm going to try that." And I'm going to learn from my mentors, whether it's a fast food cook, which I wouldn't think would be a direct mentor, and recognizing years later, "Wow, what an impact that person had on me, having the courage to do what I have." And so I would ask you like each one more question in terms of just your inspiration for what you're currently doing. Debbie, as the leader of security for NETSCOUT, what inspires you to continue in your current role and seek more? >> So, I'm a lifelong learner. So, I love to learn cybersecurity. You know, every day is a different day. So, it's definitely the ability to continue to learn and to do new things. But the second thing is, is I think I've always been, I don't want to call it a fixer-upper because cybersecurity isn't a fixer-upper, I'm just always wanted to improve upon things. If I've seen something that I think can do better, or a product that could have something new or better in it, you know, that's what excites me is to give people that feedback and to improve on what we've had out there. You know, you had mentioned, we've got this block of jobs that we can't fill. We have to give feedback and how we get the tools and what we have today smarter, so that if there are less of us, we're working smarter and not harder. And so if there is some low-level tasks that we could put back into tools, and talk to vendors and have them do this for us, that's how I think we start to get our way sort of out of the hole. Tyler, any thoughts on that? >> I again, I love that answer. I mean, I think for me, you know, I do like, it's that problem solving thing too. But for me it's also about, it's about compassion. And when I see, you know, a story of some child that's been involved in some kind of cyber bullying attack, or a company that has been broken into, I want to do whatever I can to help people, and to teach people to really protect themselves, so that they feel empowered and they're not afraid of cyber security. So for me, it's also really that drive to really make a difference and really help people. >> And you've both done, I'm sure, so much of that made such a big difference in many communities in which you're involved. I thank you so much for sharing your journeys with me on the program today, and giving such great pointed advice to young men and women, and even some of the older men and women out there that might be kind of struggling about, where do I go next? Your advice is brilliant, ladies. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> For Debbie Briggs and Tyler Cohen Wood, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching this Cube Conversation. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to this Cube Conversation about women in tech and women in cybersecurity, two things I'm very passionate about. Lisa Martin here, with two guests, Debbie Briggs joins us, the Area Vice President, and Chief Security Officer at NETSCOUT, and Tyler Cohen Wood is here as well, the Founder and CEO of MyConnectedHealth. Ladies, it's an honor to have you on the program. I'm excited to talk to you. >> Thank you so much for having us. >> Completely agree. Tyler and I talked a couple of minutes last week and she has a lot to offer to this. >> I know, I was looking at both of your backgrounds. Very impressive. Tyler, starting with you. I see that you are a nationally recognized Cybersecurity Intelligence, National Security Expert, and former Director of Cyber Risk Management for AT&T. And I also saw that you just won a Top 50 Women in Tech Influencers to Follow for 2021 Award. Congratulations, that's amazing. I would love to know way back in the day, how did you even first become interested in tech? >> Well, it was kind of inevitable that I would go into something like tech because as a kid, I was kind of nerdy. I was obsessed with "Star Trek". I would catalog my "Star Trek" tapes by Stardate. I was just really into it. But when I was in college, I mean, it was the late 90's. Cybersecurity just really wasn't a thing. So I went into music and I worked for a radio station. I loved it, but the format of the radio station changed and I wanted to do something different. And I thought, well, computers. I'll move to San Francisco, and I'm sure I can get a job, 'cause they were hiring anyone with a brain, 'cause it was really the dot com boom. And that's really how I got into it. It was just kind of one of those things. (laughs) >> Did you have, was it like network connection, going from music to tech is quite a jump? >> It's a huge jump. It was, but you know, I was young. I was still fresh out of school. I was really interested in learning and I really wanted to get involved in cyber in some capacity, because I became really fascinated with it. So it was just kind of one of those things, that just sort of happened. >> What an interesting talk about a zig-zaggy path. That's a very, very interesting one. And I have to talk about music with you later. That would be interesting. And Debbie, you also have, as Tyler does, 20 years plus experience in cybersecurity. You've been with NETSCOUT since '04. Were you always interested in tech? Did you study engineering or computer science in school, Debbie? >> Yeah, so I think my interest in tech, just like Tyler started at a very young age. I was always interested in how things worked and how people worked. And some day over a drink, I will tell you some funny stories about things I took apart in my parents house, to figure out how it worked. (Lisa and Tyler laughing) They still don't know it. So I guess I- >> I love that. >> I just love that putting it back together, but I took a more traditional route than Tyler did. I do have a degree in Computer Science, went to school a little bit earlier than Tyler. What I would say is, when I was in college, the Computer Science Center was in the basement of the library and we had these really tiny windows and they sort of hit you in the dark. And I think it was my senior year and I went, "I don't want to sit in a room by myself and write code all day and talk to no one." So, you know, I'm a senior and I'm like, "Okay, I got to, this is not, I did not want to write code all day." And so I happened to fall into a great company and moved onto PCs. And from there went to messaging, to networking and into that, I fell into cybersecurity. So I took that more traditional route and I think I've done every job in IT, except for programming, which is what I really got my degree in. >> But you realized early on, you know, "I don't quite think this is for me." And that's an important thing for anybody in any career, to really listen to your gut. It's telling you something. I love how you both got into cybersecurity, which is now, especially in the last 18 months, with what we've seen with the threat landscape, such an incredible opportunity for anyone. But I'd like to know there's not a lot of women in tech, as we know we've been talking about this for a long time now. We've got maybe a quarter of women at the technology roles are filled by women. Tyler, talk to me about some of the challenges that you faced along your journey to get where you are today. >> Well, I mean, you know, like I said, when I started, it was like 1999, 2000. And there were even less women in cybersecurity and in these tech roles than there are now. And you know, it was difficult because, you know, I remember at my first job, I was so interested in learning about Unix and I would learn everything, I read everything about it. And I ended up getting promoted over all of my male colleagues. And you know, it was really awkward because there was the assumption, they would just say things like, "Oh, well you got that because you're a woman." And that was not the case, but it's that type of stereotyping, you know, that we've had to deal with in this industry. Now I do believe that is changing. And I've seen a lot of evidence of that. We're getting there, but we're not there yet. >> And I agree. I agree completely with what Tyler said. You know, when I started, you were the only woman in the room, you got promoted over your male counterparts. You know, I would say even 10 years ago, you know, someone was like, "Well, you could go for any CISCO role and you'd get the job because you're a woman." And I've had to go and say, "No, I might get an interview because I'm a woman, but you don't get the job just because, you know, you check a box." You know, some of that is still out there, but Tyler you're right, things are changing. I think, you know, three things that we all need to focus in on to continue to move us forward and get more women into tech is the first thing is we have to start younger. I think by high school, a lot of girls and young women have been turned off by technology. So maybe, we need to start in the middle school and ensuring that we've got young girls interested. The second thing is, is we have to have mentors. And I always say, if you're in the security industry, you have to turn around and help the next person out. And if that person is a woman, that's great, but we have to mentor others. And it can be young girls, it could be young gentlemen, but we need to mentor that next group up. And you know, if you're in the position to offer internships during the summer, we don't have to stay to the traditional role and go, "Oh, let me hire just intern from the you know IT, they're getting degrees in IT." You can get creative. And my best worker right now was an intern that worked for me, was an intern for me six years ago. And she has a degree in Finance, so nontraditional route into cyber security. And the third thing I think we need to do is, is there things the industry could do to change things and make things, I don't want to say even 'cause they're not uneven, but for example, I forget what survey it was, but if a woman reads a job description and I can do half of it, I'm not going to apply because I don't feel I'll qualify, where men, on the other hand, if they can do three out of ten they'll apply. So do we need to look at the way we write job descriptions, and use different words, you know, rather than must have these skills. You know, sort of leave it a little bit open, like here are the skills we'd like you to have, or have, you know, a handful of the following. So soften some of those job descriptions. And the second thing is once we get women in, we have to be a little bit more, I'll say inclusive. So, if you're a high tech company, look at, you know, your sales organization. When you go to big shows, do you pay more attention to men on the floor than women on the floor? If you have a sales event where you get different customers together, is it a golf outing or is it something that's maybe a little bit more inclusive than just male? So those are the three things I think as an industry we have to focus in on, start younger, get them, you know, work on mentorships specifically in cyber, and the third thing is, look at some of the things that we're doing, as companies both in our HR and sales practices. >> That's a great, that last piece of advice, Debbie is fantastic. That's one that I hadn't thought about, but you're right. If a job description is written, for must have all of these things and a woman that goes, "I only got three out of the ten. I'm not going to even get past, you know, the recruiter here." How can we write things differently? I also loved your idea of bringing in people with diverse backgrounds. I've been in marketing for 16 years and I've met very few people that actually have marketing degrees, a lot of people. So you get that diversity of thought. Tyler, what are some of your thoughts about how we can help expand the role of women in technology? Do you agree with some of the things that Debbie said? >> I love what Debbie said. I agree 100%. And I started laughing because I was thinking about all the golf outings that I've been on and I don't play golf. (all laughing) I think that there is an untapped resource because there's a lot of women who are now interested in changing their careers and that's a big pool of people. And I think that making it more accessible and making it so that people understand what the different cyber security or cyber jobs are, because a lot of people just assume that it's coding, or it's, you know, working on AI, but that's not necessarily true. I mean, there's so many different avenues. There's marketing, there's forensics, there's incident response. I mean, I could go on and on and on. And oftentimes if people don't know that these types of jobs exist, they're not even going to look for them. So making that more well-known, what the different types of opportunities are to people, I think that that would help kind of open more doors. >> And that goes along beautifully with what Debbie was talking about with respect to mentorship. And I would even add sponsorship in there, but becoming a sponsor of a younger female, who's maybe considering tech or is already in tech to help her navigate the career. Look for the other opportunities. Tyler, as you mentioned, there's a lot to cybersecurity, that is beyond coding and AI for example. So maybe getting the awareness out there more. Did either of you have sponsors when you were early in your career? Are you a sponsor now? Debbie, let's start with you. >> So, I'll answer your first question. I guess I was really fortunate that my first job out of college, I had an internship and I happened to have a female boss. And so, although we may not have called it sponsorship or mentor, she taught me and showed me that, you know, women can be leaders. And she always believed in us and always pushed us to do things beyond what we may have thought we were capable of. Throughout the years, someone once told me that we should all have our own personal board of directors. You know, a group of people that when we're making a decision, that may be life-changing or we're unsure, rather than just having one mentor, having a group of people that you, that you know, they don't have to be in cybersecurity. Yeah, I want someone that's on my board of directors that maybe, is a specialist in cybersecurity, but having other executives in other companies, that can also give you that perspective. You know, so I've always had a personal board of directors. I think I've had three or four different mentors. Some of them, I went out and found. Some of them I have joined organizations that have been fortunate enough to become not only a mentor, but a mentee. And I've kept those relationships up over three or four years. And all those people are now on my personal board of directors, that, you know, if I have a life-changing question, I've got a group of people that I can go back on. >> That is brilliant advice. I love that having a... Isn't that great Tyler? Having a personal- >> Yes Yes! >> Board of directors, especially as we look at cybersecurity and the cybersecurity skills gap Tyler has been, I think it's in its 5th year now, which is there's so much opportunity. What we saw in the threat landscape in the last 18, 19 months during the pandemic was this explosion and the attack surface, ransomware becoming a word that even my mom knows these days. What do you advise Tyler for, you talked about really making people much more aware of all of the opportunities within cyber, but when you think about how you would get women interested in cybersecurity specifically, what are some of the key pieces of advice you would offer? >> Well, again, I think I love the board of directors. I love that. That is brilliant, but I really think that it is about finding mentors, and it is about doing the research, and really asking questions. Because if you reach out to someone on LinkedIn, you know, they may just not respond, but chances are some someone will and, you know, most people in this community are very willing to help. And, you know, I found that to be great. I mean, I've got my board of directors too. I realize that now. (Debbie laughs) But I also like to help other people as well, that are just kind of entering into the field or if they're changing their careers. And it's not necessarily just women, it's people that are interested in getting into an aspect of this industry. And this is a industry where, you know, you can jump from this, to this, to this, to this. I mean, I think that I've had six different major career shifts still within the cybersecurity realm. So, just because you start off doing one thing doesn't mean that that's what you're going to do forever. There're so many different areas. And it's really interesting. I think about my 11 year old niece and she may very well have a job someday, that doesn't even exist right now. That's how quickly cyber and everything connected is moving. And if you think about it, we are connected, there is a cyber component to every single thing that we do, and that's going to continue to expand and continue to grow. And we need more people to be interested, and to want to get into these careers. And I think also it's important for younger girls to let them know these careers are really fun and they're extremely rewarding. And I mean, I hate to use this as an incentive, but there's also a lot of money that can be made too, and that's an incentive to get, you know, women and girls into these careers as well. >> And Tyler, I think you're right. In addition to that, you're always going to have a job. And I think cyber is a great career for someone that are lifelong learners, because like you said, your 11 year old niece, the job, when she graduates from college, she may have, probably doesn't even exist today. And so I think you have to be a lifelong learner. I think one of the things that people may not be aware of is, you know, for women who may have gone the non-traditional route and got degrees later in life, or took time off to raise children and want to come back to work, cyber security is something that, you know, doesn't have to be a nine to five job. I have, it happens to be a gentlemen on my team, who has to get kids on the bus and off the bus. And so we figured out how, you know, he gets up and he works for a couple hours, puts kids on the bus, is in the office. And then he gets the kids off. And once they've had dinner and gone to bed, he puts in a couple more hours. And I think, you know, people need to be aware of, there is some flexibility, there is flexibility in cyber jobs. I mean, it's not a nine to five job, it's not like banking. Well, if you were teller, and your hours are when the bank is open, cyber is 7/24 and jobs can be flexible. And I think people need to be aware of that. >> I agree on the flexibility front, and people also need to be flexible themselves. I do want to ask you both, we're getting low on time, but I've got to ask you, how do you get the confidence, to be, like you said, back in the day, in the room, maybe the only female and I've been in that as well, even in marketing, product marketing years ago. How do you get the confidence to continue moving forward? Even as someone says, "You're only here because you're a female." Tyler, what's your advice to help young women and young men as well fight any sort of challenges that are coming their way? >> I had a mentor when I first moved to the Defense Intelligence Agency, I had an Office Chief and she said to me, "Tyler, you're a Senior Intelligence Officer, you always take a seat at the table. Do not let anyone tell you that you cannot have a seat at the table." And you know, that was good advice. And I think confidence is great. But courage is something that's much more important, because courage is what leads up to confidence. And you really have to believe in yourself and do things that you know are right for you, not because you think it's going to make other people happy. And I think, you know, as women, it's really finding that courage to be brave and to be strong and to be willing to stand out, you know, alone on something, because it's what you care about and what you believe in. And that's really what helps kind of motivate me. >> I love that courage. Debbie, what are your thoughts? >> (laughs) So I was going to say, this is going to be really hard to believe, but when I was 16 years old, I was so shy that if I went to a restaurant and someone served me stone cold food, I wouldn't say a word. I would just eat it. If I bought something in a store and I didn't like it, I'd refuse, I just couldn't bring myself to go to that customer service desk and return it. And my first job in high school, was it a fast food place. And I worked for a gentleman who was a little bit of a tyrant, but you know, I learned how to get a backbone very quickly. And I would have to say now looking back, he was probably my first mentor without even trying to do that. He mentored me on how to believe in myself and how to stand up for what's right. So, Tyler, I completely agree with you. And you know, that's something that people think when they get a mentorship, sometimes it's someone going to mentor them on, you know, something tactical, something they want to know how to do, but sometimes what you need to be mentored in, could be, "How do I believe in myself?" Or "How do I find the courage to be that the only female in the room?" And I think that is where some of that mentorship comes from and, you know, I think, you know, if we go back to mentoring at the middle school, there's lots of opportunities, career fairs, the first robotically, get the middle school level, gives all of us an opportunity to sort of mentor girls at that level. And for all the guys out there who have daughters, this is, you know, how to... It's not like you can get a parenting checklist, "Teach my kid courage." And Tyler, I love that word, but I think that's something that we all need to aspire to bring out in others. >> I love that. I love that. >> Okay with that, I think I love both of your stories, are zig-zaggy in certain ways, one in a more direct cybersecurity path, Debbie with yours. Tyler, yours, very different coming from the music industry. But you both have such great advice. It's really, I would say, I'm going to add that, open your mind to be open to, you can do anything. As Tyler said, there's a very great possibility that right now the job that your niece who's 11 is going to get in the next 10 years, doesn't exist yet. How exciting is that? To have the opportunity to be open-minded enough and flexible enough to say, "I'm going to try that." And I'm going to learn from my mentors, whether it's a fast food cook, which I wouldn't think would be a direct mentor, and recognizing years later, "Wow, what an impact that person had on me, having the courage to do what I have." And so I would ask you like each one more question in terms of just your inspiration for what you're currently doing. Debbie, as the leader of security for NETSCOUT, what inspires you to continue in your current role and seek more? >> So, I'm a lifelong learner. So, I love to learn cybersecurity. You know, every day is a different day. So, it's definitely the ability to continue to learn and to do new things. But the second thing is, is I think I've always been, I don't want to call it a fixer-upper because cybersecurity isn't a fixer-upper, I'm just always wanted to improve upon things. If I've seen something that I think can do better, or a product that could have something new or better in it, you know, that's what excites me is to give people that feedback and to improve on what we've had out there. You know, you had mentioned, we've got this block of jobs that we can't fill. We have to give feedback and how we get the tools and what we have today smarter, so that if there are less of us, we're working smarter and not harder. And so if there is some low-level tasks that we could put back into tools, and talk to vendors and have them do this for us, that's how I think we start to get our way sort of out of the hole. Tyler, any thoughts on that? >> I again, I love that answer. I mean, I think for me, you know, I do like, it's that problem solving thing too. But for me it's also about, it's about compassion. And when I see, you know, a story of some child that's been involved in some kind of cyber bullying attack, or a company that has been broken into, I want to do whatever I can to help people, and to teach people to really protect themselves, so that they feel empowered and they're not afraid of cyber security. So for me, it's also really that drive to really make a difference and really help people. >> And you've both done, I'm sure, so much of that made such a big difference in many communities in which you're involved. I thank you so much for sharing your journeys with me on the program today, and giving such great pointed advice to young men and women, and even some of the older men and women out there that might be kind of struggling about, where do I go next? Your advice is brilliant, ladies. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> For Debbie Briggs and Tyler Cohen Wood, I'm Lisa Martin. You've been watching this Cube Conversation. (upbeat music)

>>from the cube studios >>in Palo alto in >>boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This >>is a cute >>conversation. Hello welcome to the cubes coverage of HPD discovered 2021 virtual. I'm john for your host of the cube we're here with CUBA alumni. One of the original cube guests 2020 11 back in the day kurt president and chief architect of Hewlett Packard labs. He's also a Hewlett Packard enterprise fellow and vice president. Great to see you and you're in Vegas. I'm in Palo Alto. We've got a little virtual hybrid going on here. Thanks for spending time. >>Thanks john it's great to be back with you >>so much going on. I love to see you guys having this event kind of everyone in one spot. Good mojo. Great CHP, you know, back in the saddle again. I want to get your, take, your in the, in the, in the action right now on the lab side, which is great disruptive innovation is the theme. It's always been this year, more than ever coming out of the pandemic, people are looking for the future, looking to see the signs, they want to connect the dots. There's been some radical rethinking going on that you've been driving and in the labs, you hope you look back at last, take us through what's going on, what you're thinking, what's the, what's the big trends? >>Yeah, John So it's been interesting, you know, over the last 18 months, all of us had gone through about a decade's worth of advancement in decentralization, education, healthcare, our own work, what we're doing right now suddenly spread apart. Uh, and it got us thinking, you know, we think about that distributed mesh and as we, as we try and begin to return to normal and certainly think about all that we've lost, we want to move forward, we don't want to regress. And we started imagining, what does that world look like? And we think about the world of 20 2500 and 35 zeta bytes, 100 and 50 billion connected things out there. And it's the shape of the world has changed. That's where the data is going to be. And so we started thinking about what's it like to thrive in that kind of world. We had a global Defense research institute came to us, Nasa's that exact question. What's the edge? What do we need to prepare for for this age of insight? And it was kind of like when you had those exam questions and I was one of those kids who give you the final exam and if it's a really good question, suddenly everything clicked. I understood all the material because there was that really forcing question when they asked us that for me, it it solidified what I've been thinking about all the work we've done at labs over the last the last 10 years. And it's really about what does it take to survive and thrive. And for me it's three things. One is, success is going to go to whoever can reason over more information, who can gain the deepest insights from that information in time that matters and then can turn that insight into action at scale. So reason, insight and action. And it certainly was clear to me everything we've been trying to push for in labs, all those boundaries. We've been pushing all those conventions we've been defying are really trying to do that for, for our customers and our partners to bring in more information for them to understand, to be able to allow them to gain insight across departments across disciplines and then turn that insight into action at scale where scale is no longer one cloud or one company or one country, let alone one data center >>lot there. I love the dot I love that metadata and meta reasoning incites always been part of that. Um and you mentioned decentralization. Again, another big trend. I gotta ask you where is the big opportunity because a lot of people who are attending discover people watching are trying to ask what should they be thinking about. So what is that next big opportunity? How would you frame that and what should attendees look for coming out at HP discover. >>So one thing we're seeing is that this is actually a ubiquitous trend, whether we're talking about transportation or energy or communications, they all are trying to understand and how will they admit more of that data to make those real time decisions? Our expectation in the middle of this decade when we have the 125 petabytes, You know, 30% of that data will need real time action out of the edge where the speed of light is now material. And also we expect that at that point in time three out of four of those 185 petabytes, they'll never make it back to the data center. So understanding how we will allow that computation, that understanding to reach out to where the data is and then bringing in that's important. And then if we look at at those, all of those different areas, whether it's energy and transportation, communications, all that real time data, they all want to understand. And so I I think that as many people come to us virtually now, hopefully in person in the future when we have those conversations that labs, it's almost immediate takes a while for them and then they realize away that's me, this is my industry too, because they see that potential and suddenly where they see data, they see opportunity and they just want to know, okay, what does it take for me to turn that raw material into insight and then turn that insight into >>action, you know, storage compute never goes away, it gets more and more, you need more of it. This whole data and edge conversations really interesting. You know, we're living in that data centric, you know, everyone's gonna be a date a couple, okay. That we know that that's obvious. But I gotta ask you as you start to see machine learning, um cloud scale cloud operations, a new Edge and the new architecture is emerging and clients start to look at things like AI and they want to have more explain ability behind I hear that all the time. Can you explain it to me? Is there any kind of, what is it doing? Good as our biases, a good bad or you know, is really valuable expect experimental experiential. These are words are I'm hearing more and more of >>not so much a speeds >>and feeds game, but these are these are these are these are outcomes. So you got the core data, you've got a new architecture and you're hearing things like explainable ai experiential customer support, a new things happening, explain what this all means, >>You know, and it's it's interesting. We have just completed uh creating an Ai ethical framework for all of Hewlett Packard enterprise and whether we're talking about something that's internal improving a process, uh something that we sell our product or we're talking about a partnership where someone wants to build on top of our services and infrastructure, Build an AI system. We really wanted to encompass all of those. And so it was it was challenging actually took us about 18 months from that very first meeting for us to craft what are some principles for us to use to guide our our team members to give them that understanding. And what was interesting is we examined our principles of robustness of uh making sure they're human centric that they're reliable, that they are privacy preserving, that they are robust. We looked at that and then you look at where people want to apply these Ai today's AI and you start to realize there's a gap, there's actually areas where we have a great challenge, a human challenge and as interesting as possibly efficacious as today's A. I. S. R. We actually can't employ them with the confidence in the ethical position that we need to really pull that technology in. And what was interesting is that then became something that we were driving at labs. It began gave us a viewpoint into where there are gaps where, as you say, explica bility, you know, as fantastic as it is to talk into your mobile phone and have it translated into another one of hundreds of languages. I mean that is right out of Star trek and it's something we can all do. And frankly, it's, you know, we're expecting it now as efficacious as that is as we echo some other problems, it's not enough. We actually need to be explainable. We need to be able to audit these decisions. And so that's really what's informed now are trustworthy ai research and development program at Hewlett Packard Labs. Let's look at where we want to play. I I we look at what keeps us from doing it and then let's close the technology gap and it means some new things. It means new approaches. Sometimes we're going back back back to some of the very early ai um that things that we sort of left behind when suddenly the computational capability allowed us to enter into a machine learning and deep neural nets. Great applications, but it's not universally applicable. So that's where we are now. We're beginning to construct that second generation of AI systems where that explica bility where that trustworthiness and were more important that you said, understanding that data flow and the responsibility we have to those who created that data, especially when it's representing human information, that long term responsibility. What are the structures we need to support that ethically? >>That's great insight, Kirk, that's awesome stuff. And it reminds me of the old is new again, right? The cycles of innovation, you mentioned a I in the eighties, reminds me of dusting off and I was smiling because the notion of reasoning and natural language that's been around for a while, these other for a lot of Ai frame which have been around for a while But applied differently becomes interesting. The notion of Meta reasoning, I remember talking about that in 1998 around ontology and syntax and data analysis. I mean, again, well formed, you know, older ways to look at data. And so I gotta ask you, you know, you mentioned reasoning over information, getting the insights and having actions at scale. That doesn't sound like an R and D or labs issue. Right? I mean that that should be like in the market today. So I know you, there's stuff out there, what's different around the Hewlett Packard labs challenge because you guys, you guys are working on stuff that's kind of next gen, so why, what's next gen about reasoning moreover, information and getting insights? Because you know, there's a zillion startups out there that claim to be insights as a service, um, taking action outcomes >>and I think there were going to say a couple things. One is the technologies and the capabilities that God is this far. Uh, they're actually in an interesting position if we think of that twilight of moore's law is getting a little darker every day. Um, there's been such a tail wind behind us tremendous and we would have been foolish not to take advantage of it while it lasted, but as it now flattens out, we have to be realistic and say, you know what that ability to expect anticipate and then planned for a doubling and performance in the next 18 to 24 months because there's twice as many transistors in that square of silicon. We can't count on that anymore. We have to look now broader and it's not just one of these technology inflection points. There's so many we already mentioned ai it's voraciously vowing all this data at the same time. Now that data is all at the edge is no longer in the data center. I mean we may find ourselves laughing chuckling at the term itself data center. Remember when we sent it all the data? Because that's where the computers were. Well, that's 2020 thinking right, that's not even 2025. Thinking also security, that cyber threat of Nation State and criminal enterprises, all these things coming together and it's that confluence of discontinuities, that's what makes a loud problem. And the second piece is we don't just need to do it the way that we've been doing it because that's not necessarily sustainable. And if something is not sustainable is inherently inequitable because we can't afford to let everyone enjoy those benefits. So I think that's all those things, the technology confluence of technology, uh, disruptions and this desire to move to really sustainable, really inherently inequitable systems. That's what makes it a labs problem. >>I really think that's right on the money. And one of things I want to get your thoughts on, cause I know you have a unique historic view of the trajectory arc. Cloud computing that everyone's attention lift and shift cloud scale. Great cloud native. Now with hybrid and multi cloud clearly happening, all the cloud players were saying, oh, it's never gonna happen. All the data set is going to go away. Not really. The, the data center is just an edge big age. So you brought up the data center concept and you mentioned decentralization there, it's a distributed computing architecture, There is no line anymore between what's cloud and what's not the cloud is just the cloud and the data center is now a big fat edge and edges are smaller and bigger. Their nodes distribute computing now is the context. So this is not a new thing for Hewlett Packard enterprise. I mean you guys been doing distributed computing paradigms, supplying software and hardware and solutions Since I can remember since it was founded, what's new now, what do you say that folks are saying, what is HP doing for this new architecture? Because now an operating system is the word, the word that they want. They want to have an operating model, deV ops to have sex shops, all this is happening. What's the what's the state of the art from H. P. E. And how does the lab play into that vision? >>And it's so wonderful that you mentioned in our heritage because if you think about it was the first thing that Bill and they did, they made instruments of unparalleled value and quality for engineers and scientists. And the second thing they did was computerized that instrument control. And then they network them together and then they connect to the network measurement sensing systems to business computing. Right. And so that's really, that's exactly what we're talking about here. You know, and yesterday it was H. B. I. B. Cables. But today it is everything from an Aruba wireless gateway to a green Lake cloud that comes to you to now are cray exa scale supercomputing. And we wanted to look at that entire gamut and understand exactly what you said. How is today's modern developer who has been distinct in agile development in seven uh and devops and def sec ops. How can we make them as comfortable and confident deploying to any one of those systems or all of them in conjunction as confident as they've been deploying to a cloud. And I think that's really part of what we need to understand. And as you move out towards the edge things become interesting. A tiny amount of resources, the number of threats, physical and uh um cyber increased dramatically. It is no longer the healthy happy environment of that raised floor data center, It is actually out in the world but we have to because that's where the data is and so that's another piece of it that we're trying to bring with the labs are distributed systems lab trying to understand how do we make cloud native access every single bite everywhere from the tiniest little Edge embedded system, all the way up through that exa scale supercomputer, how do we admit all of that data to this entire generation and then the following subsequent generation, who will no longer understand what we were so worried about with things being in one place or another, they want to digest all the world's data regardless of where it is. >>You know, I was just having a conversation, you brought this up. Uh that's interesting around the history and the heritage, embedded systems is changing the whole hardware equations, changes the software driven model. Now, supply chain used to be constrained to software. Now you have a software supply chain, hardware, now you have software supply chain. So everything is happening in these kind of new use cases. And Edge is a great example where you want to have compute at the edge not having pulled back to some central location. So, again, advantage hp right, you've got more, you've got some solutions there. So all these like memory driven computing, something that you've worked on and been driving the machine product that we talked about when you guys launched a few years ago, um, looks like now a good R and D project, because all the discussions, I'm I'm hearing whether it's stuff in space or inside hybrid edges is I gotta have software running on an embedded system, I need security, I gotta have, you know, memory driven architecture is I gotta have data driven value in real time. This is new as a kind of a new shift, but you still need to run it. What's the update on the machine and the memory driven computing? And how does that connect the dots for this intelligent Edge? That's now super important in the hybrid equation. >>Yeah, it's fantastic you brought that up. You know, it's uh it's gratifying when you've been drawing pictures on your white board for 10 or 15 years and suddenly you see them printed uh and on the web and he's like, OK Yeah, you guys were there were there because we always knew it had to be bigger than us. And for a while you wonder, well is this the right direction? And then you get that gratification that you see it repeated. And I think one of the other elements that you said that was so important was talking about that supply chain uh and especially as we get towards these edge devices uh and the increasing cyber threat, you know, so much more about understanding the provenance of that supply chain and how we get beyond trust uh to prove. And in our case that proof is rooted in the silicon. Start with the silicon establish a silicon root of trust, something that can't be forged that that physically uncomfortable function in the silicon. And then build up that chain not of trust but a proof of measurable confidence. And then let's link that through the hardware through the data. And I think that's another element, understanding how that data is flowing in and we establish that that that provenance that's provable provenance and that also enables us to come back to that equitable question. How do we deal with all this data? Well, we want to make sure that everyone wants to buy in and that's why you need to be able to reward them. So being able to trace data into an AI model, trace it back out to its effect on society. All these are things that we're trying to understand the labs so that we can really establish this data economy and admit the day that we need to the problems that we have that really just are crying out for that solution bringing in that data, you just know where is the data, Where is the answer? Now I get to work with, I've worked for several years with the German center for your Degenerative Disease Research and I was teasing their director dr nakata. I said, you know, in a couple of years when you're getting that Nobel prize for medicine because you cracked Alzheimer's I want you to tell me how long was the answer hiding in plain sight because it was segregated across disciplines across geography and it was there. But we just didn't have that ability to view across the breath of the information and in a time that matters. And I think so much about what we're trying to do with the lab is that that's that reasoning moreover, more information, gaining insights in the time that matters and then it's all about action and that is driving that insight into the world regardless of whether it has to land in an exa scale supercomputer or tiny little edge device, we want today's application development teams to feel that degree of freedom to range over all of those that infrastructure and all of that data. >>You know, you bring up a great call out there. I want to just highlight that cause I thought that was awesome. The future breakthroughs are hiding in plain sight. It's the access to the people and the talent to solve the problems and the data that's stuck in the silos. You bring those together, you make that seamless and frictionless, then magic happens. That's that's really what we're talking about in this new world, isn't it? >>Absolutely, yeah. And it's one of those things that sometimes my kids as you know, why do you come in every day? And for me it is exactly that I think so many of the challenges we have are actually solvable if the right people knew the right information at the right time and that we all have that not again, not trust, but that proof that confidence, that measurable conference back to the instruments that that HP was always famous for. It was that precision and they all had that calibration tag. So you could measure your confidence in an HP instrument and the same. We want people to measure their confidence when data is flowing through Hewlett Packard Enterprise infrastructure. >>It's interesting to bring up the legacy because instrumentation network together, connecting to business systems. Hey, that sounds like the cloud observe ability, modern applications, instant action and actionable insights. I mean that's really the the same almost exact formula. >>Yeah, For me that's that, that the constant through line from the garage to right now is that ability to handle and connect people to the information that they need. >>Great, great to chat. You're always an inspiration and we could go for another hour talking about extra scale, green leg, all the other cool things going on at H P E. I got to ask you the final question, what are you most excited about for h B and his future and how and how can folks learn more to discover and what should they focus on? >>Uh so I think for me um what I love is that I imagine that world where the data you know today is out there at the edge and you know we have our Aruba team, we have our green Lake team, we have are consistent, you know, our core enterprise infrastructure business and now we also have all the way up through X scale compute when I think of that thriving business, that ability to bring in massive data analytics, machine learning and Ai and then stimulation and modeling. That's really what whether you're a scientist and engineer or an artist, you want to have that intersectionality. And I think we actually have this incredible, diverse set of resources to bring to bear to those problems that will span from edge to cloud, back to core and then to exit scale. So that's what really, that's why I find so exciting is all of the great uh innovators that we get to work with and the markets we get to participate in. And then for me it's also the fact it's all happening at Hewlett Packard Enterprise, which means we have a purpose. You know, if you ask, you know, when they did ask Dave Packer, Dave, why hp? And he said in 1960, we come together as a company because we can do something we could not do by ourselves and we make a contribution to society and I dare anyone to spend more than a couple of minutes with Antonio Neary and he won't remind you. And this is whether it is here to discover or in the halls at labs remind me our purpose, that Hewlett Packard Enterprise is to advance the way that people live and work. And for me that's that direct connection. So it's, it's the technology and then the purpose and that's really what I find so exciting about HPV. >>That's a great call out, Antonio deserves props. I love talking with him, he's the true Bill and Dave Bill. Hewlett Dave package spirit And I'll say that I've talked with him and one of the things that resident to me and resonates well is the citizenship and be interesting to see if Bill and Dave were alive today, that now it's a global citizenship. This is a huge part of the culture and I know it's still alive there at H P E. So, great call out there and props to Antonio and yourself and the team. Congratulations. Thanks for spending the time, appreciate it. >>Thank you john it's great to be with you again. >>Okay. Global labs. Global opportunities, radical. Rethinking this is what's happening within HP. Hewlett Packard Labs, Great, great contribution there from Kirk, have them on the cube and always fun to talk so much, so much to digest there. It's awesome. I'm john Kerry with the cube. Thanks for watching. >>Mm >>mhm Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020. Special coverage sponsored by AWS Worldwide Public sector. >>Welcome to the Cube. Virtual. This is our coverage of aws reinvent 2020. Specialized programming for worldwide public sector. I'm Lisa Martin. Got a couple of guests here from No. Veta, please welcome Steven Adelman, principal computer scientists, and Kevin Healed, vice president of Information Exploitation. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cube. >>Thank you. >>Thank you for having us. >>Alright, guys. So? So, Kevin, we're going to start with you. Give our audience an introduction to Nevada. What do you What do you guys do? Who are you? How do you play in the public sector Government space, >>right? Yeah. Thank you, Lisa. Eso, Nevada Nevada is a technology services company focused on government solutions. So primarily national security solutions. Eso think customers such as Doody, the intelligence community, FBI, law enforcement and things like that about 13 1300 employees worldwide, primarily in our in our field. Clear resource is, um, that really focused on cloud for solutions for our customers. So solving the tough mission challenges our customers have, so that could be in technology solutions such as Data Analytics A I M L i O T. Secure Workloads, full spectrum cyber Cobb video processing. Really anything that's a high end technology solution or something we do for the government. We have been a privilege. We have. It's a privilege to be a partner with AWS for for some time now. In fact, I think the first reinvent we may have been to Stephen was six years ago. Five years ago, two >>1012 or 13 >>s So we've we've we've been around for a while, really kind of enjoying it and certainly sad that we're missing an in person reinvent this year, but looking forward to doing it virtually so, we're actually advanced your partner with AWS with a machine learning and government competency. Andi really kind of thio pump the m l side of that. That was one of our first companies with compasses with AWS and led by a center of excellence that I have in my division that really focuses on machine learning and how we applied for the Michigan. And so, um, really, we focus on protecting the nation and protecting our activities in the country >>and on behalf of the country. We thank you, Steven. Give me a little bit of information from a double click perspective as computer scientists. What are some of the key challenges that no, that helps its customers to solve. And how do you do that with a W s? >>Yeah, Thank you. So really as, ah, company, that is is data first. So our initial love and and still are kind of strongest competency is in applying solutions to large data sets. And as you can imagine, uh, the bigger the data set them or compute you need the the more resource is you need and the flexibility from those resource is is truly important, which led us very early, as especially in the government space and public sector space to be in early. A doctor of cloud resource is because of the fact that, you know, rather than standing up a 200 node cluster at at many millions of dollars, we could we could spend up a W s resource is process a big data set, and then and then get the answers an analyst or on operator needed and then spin down. Those resource is when When when that kind of compute wasn't needed. And that is really, uh, kind of informed how we do our work Azaz Nevadans that that cloud infrastructure and now pushing into the edge compute space. Still kind of keeping those cloud best practices in play to get access to more data. That the two, the two biggest, I think revolutions that we've seen with regards to using data to inform business processes and missions has been that that cloud resource that allows us to do so much with so less and so much more flexibly and then the idea of cheap compute making it to the edge and the ability to apply sensors thio places where you know it would been a would have been, you know, operational cost prohibitive to do that and then, ironically, those air to things that aren't necessarily data analytics or machine learning focused but man, did they make it easier to collect that data and process that data and then get the answers back out. So that really has has has kind of, uh, shaped a lot of the way Nevada has grown as a company and how we serve our customers. >>So coming back over to you lets. One of the things that we've been talking about almost all year is just the acceleration in digital transformation and how much faster organizations, private sector, public sector need to innovate to stay relevant, to stay competitive. How do you are you working with government customers to help them innovate so quickly? >>You know, we're very fortunate that a set of customers that focuses actually innovation it's focuses. I rad on. Do you know we can't do the cool things we do without those customer relationships that really encourage us to, um, to try new things out and, quite frankly, fail quickly when we need Thio. And so, by establishing that relationship, what we've been able to do is to blend agile development. Actual acquisition with government requirements process, right? If if you know the typical stereotype of government work is it's this very stovepiped hard core acquisition process, right? And so we have been fortunate to instead try quick win kind of projects. And so one of the biggest things we do is partner with our government customers and try to find it difficult, um, challenged to solve over 6 to 12 month time, right? So instead of making this long four or five year acquisition cycles like show me, right. How can we solve this problem? And then we partner with the mission partner show success in six months show that we can do it with a smaller part of money, and then as we're able to actually make that happen, it expands in something bigger, broader, and then we kind of bringing together a coalition of the willing, if you will in the government and saying, Okay, are there other stakeholders to care about this problem, bring them on, bring their problems and bringing together? You know, we can't do that with some of the passionate people we have, like Stevens. A perfect example. When we talk about a car in the projects we're doing here, Stevens passion for this technology partner with our customers having these challenges and try to enhance what they're doing is a powerful combination. And then the last thing that we're able to is a company is we actually spend a decent amount of our own dollar dollars on I rad S O. R and D that we fund ourselves. And so, while finding those problems and spending government dollars in doing that. We also have spent our own dollars on machine learning Coyote sensor next Gen five g and things like that and how those compartment together partner together to go back to the government. >>Yeah, yeah, So I would even say, You know, there's this. There's a conventional wisdom that government is slow in plotting and a little bit behind commercial best practices. But there are There are pockets in growing pockets across the government, Um, where they're really they're really jumping ahead of, ah, lot of processes and getting in front of this curve and actually are quite innovative. And and because they kind of started off from behind, they could jump over a lot of kind of middle ground legacy technologies. And they're really innovating. As Kevin said with With With the card platform, we're partnering with um P E O Digital in the Air Force in South C, D. M and Air Force security forces as that kind of trifecta of stakeholders who all want toe kind of saw a mission problem and wanted to move forward quickly and leave the legacy behind and and really take a quantum leap forward. And if anything, they're they're driving us Thio, Innovate Mawr Thio Introduce more of those kind of modern back practices on bond. Nevada as a company loves to find those spots in the government sector where we've got those great partners who love what we're doing. And it's this great feedback loop where, um, where we can solve hard technical problems but then see them deployed to some really important and really cool and impactful missions. And we tend to recruit that that set that kind of nexus of people who want to both solve a really difficult problem but want to see it executed in a really impactful way as well. I mean, that really grates a great bond for us, and and I'm really excited to say that that a lot of the government it is really taking a move forward in this this this realm. And I think it's it's just good for our country and good for the missions that they support. >>Absolutely. And it's also surprising because, as you both said, you know, there is this expectation that government processes or lengthy, you know, laborious, um, not able to be turned around quickly. But as Kevin, you just said, you know helping customers. Government agencies get impact within 6 to 12 months versus 4 to 5 years. So you talked about Picard? Interesting name. Kevin. Tell me a little bit more about that technology and what it is that you guys deliver. That's unique. >>Well, honestly, it's probably best to start with Stephen. I can give you the high level. This is Stevens vision. I have to give him credit for that. And I will say way have lots of fun. Acronym. So it isn't Actually, it isn't backward. Um, right. Stephen doesn't actually stand for something. >>It stands for Platform for Integrated, a C three and Responsive for defense on >>Guy. You know >>that the Star Trek theme is the leg up from the last set of programs I had, >>which were >>my little ponies. So >>Oh, wow. That's a definite stuff in a different direction. Like >>it? Part of the great thing about working in the government is you get to name things, cool things, so but t get to your question eso So Picard really sprung out of this idea that I had a few years ago that the world but for our spaces, the Department of defense and the federal government was going to see a massive influx of the desire to consume sensors from from areas of responsibility, from installations and, frankly, from battlefields. Um, but they were gonna have to do it. In a way, um, uh, that presented some real challenges that you couldn't just kind of throw compute editor, throw traditional I t processes at it. You know, we have legacy sensors that are 40 years old sitting on installations. You know, old program, a logical controllers or facilities control systems that were written in cobalt in the seventies, right in the world are not even I, p based, most of them bond. Then on the other end of the spectrum, you have seven figure sensors that air, you know, throwing out megabits of second of data that are mounted to the back of jeeps. Right, That that air bouncing through the desert today. But we'll be bouncing through the jungle tomorrow, and you have to find all of those kind of in combined all of those together, um, and kind of create a cohesive data center for data set set for you know, the mission for, um, you know what we call a user to find common operating picture for a person. Thio kind of combine all of those different resource is and make it work for them. And so we found a great partner with security forces. Um, they realized that they wanted Thio to make a quantum leap forward. They had this idea that the next defender So there are there, like a military police outfit that the next defender was going to be a data driven defender and they were gonna have to win the information war war as much as they had to kind of dominate physical space. And they immediately got what we were trying to achieve, and it was just just great synergy. And then we've piled on some other elements, and we're really moving that platform forward to to kind of take every little bit of information we can get from the areas of responsibility and get it into a you know, your modern Data Lake, where they can extract information from all that data. >>Kevin, as the VP of information exploitation, that's a very interesting title. How are you helping government organizations to win the war on information? Leverage that information to make a big impact fast. >>Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it is is that we try to break down the barriers between systems on data so that we can actually enable that data to fuse together to find and get insights into it. You know, as ML and I have become trendy topics, you know, they're very data hungry operations. And I think what Steven has done with the card and his team is really we want to be able to make those sensors seamless from a plug and play perspective that Aiken plug in a new sensor. It's a standards based, uh, interface that sends that data back so that we can and take it back to the user to find Operation Picture and make some decisions based off of that data. Um, you know, what's more is that data could even refused with more than the data that Stevens collecting off the sensors. It could be commercial data, other government data and I think is Davis. As Stephen said earlier, you have to get it back. And as long as you've gotten back in Labour's share with some of our mission partners, then you can do amazing things with it. And, you know, Stephen, I know you have some pretty cool ideas and what we're gonna do on the edge, right? How do we do some of this work of the edge where a sensor doesn't allow us to pull out that data back? >>Yeah, and and Thio follow on to what you were kind of referring to with regards to thio handling heterogeneous data from different sensors. Um, one of the main things that our government customers and we have seen is that there are a lot of historically there are a lot of vertical solutions where you know, the sensor, the platform, and then the data Laker kind of all part of this proprietary stack. And we quickly realized that that just doesn't work. And so one of the major thrust of that card platform was to make sure that we had ah, platform by which we could consume data through adapters from essentially any sensor speaking. Any protocol with any style data object, Whether that was an industry standard or a proprietary protocol, we could quickly interested and bring it into our Data lake. And then to pile on to what Kevin was talking about with compute. Right? So you have, uh, like, almost like a mass locks hierarchy of needs when it comes to cyber data or thio this coyote data or kind of unified data, Um, you know, you wanna turn it into basic information, alerts alarms, then you want to do reporting on it, or analytics or some some higher level workflow function. And then finally, you probably want to perform some analytics or some trending or sort of anomaly detection on it. And and that gets more computational e intensive each step of the way. And so you gotta You gotta build a platform that allows you to to both take some of that high level compute down to the edge, but also then bring some of that data up into the clouds where you could do that processing, and you have to have kind of fun jubilate e between that and so that hard platform allows you to kind of bring GP use and high processing units down to the edge and and make that work. Um, but then also and then as maybe even a first passive to rule out some of the most you know, some of the boring gated in the video Analytics platform. We call it Blue Sky and Blue Ocean. Right, so you're recording lots of video. That's not that interesting. How do you filter that out? So you're only sending the information The interesting video up eso You're not wasting bandwidth on stuff that just doesn't matter on DSO. It's It's a lot of kind of tuning these knobs and having a flexible enough platform that you could bring Compute down when you need it. And you could bring data up to compute on Big Cloud while you need it, and just kind of finding a way to tune that that that really does. I mean it. You know, that's a lot of words about how you do that. But what that comes to is flexible hardware and being able to apply those dev ops and C I. C D platform characteristics to that edge hardware and having a unified platform that allows you to kind of orchestrate your applications in your services all the way up and down your stack, from micro controllers to a big cloud instant creation. >>You make it sound so easy. Steven Kevin. Let's wrap it up with you in terms of like making impacts and going forward. We know the edge has exploded, even mawr, during this very interesting year. And that's going to be something that's probably going to stay, um, stay as a permanent impact or effect. What are some of the things that we can expect in 2021 in terms of how you're able to help government organizations capitalize on that, find things faster, make impact faster? >>Yeah. I mean, I think the cool thing we're seeing is that there's a lot more commoditization of sensors. There's a lot more censored information. And so let's use lighters. Example. We you know, things were getting cheaper, and so we can all of a sudden doom or or more things at the edge, and we ever would have expected. Right when you know Steven's team is integrating camera data and fence data from 40 years ago, you know, it's just saying on off it's not do anything fancy. But now we you know, you know, Stephen, I camera whether Metro you gave him before was, but the cost of light are has dropped so significantly that we can now then deploy that we can actually roll it out there and not being locked in their proprietary, uh, system. Um, so I see that being very powerful, you know? Also, I can see where you start having sensors interact with each other, right? So one sensor finds one thing and then a good example that we've started thio experiment with. And I think Steve, you could touch on it is using triggering a sensor, triggers a drone to actually investigate what's going on and then therefore, hybrid video back and then automatically can investigate instead of having to deploy a defender to actually see what happened at that. At that end, Points dio e don't know. There's it's amore detail you can provide there. >>Yeah, No. So exactly that Kevin. So So the power of the sensor is is something something old that that gives you very uninteresting Data like a one or a zero on on or off can detect something very specific and then do something kind of high speed, like task a drone to give you a visual assessment and then run object detection or facial recognition on, you know, do object detection to find a person and do facial recognition on that person to find out if that's a patrol walking through a field or a bad guy trying Thio invade your space. Um and so it's really the confluence and the gestalt of all of these sensors in the analytics working together, Um, that really creates the power from very simple, simple delivery. I think, um, there's this, You know, this idea that you know, ah 100 bytes of data is not that important. But when you put a million sensors giving you 100 bytes of data, you can truly find something extremely powerful. And then when you kind of and you make those interactions sing, um, it's amazing. Tow us the productivity that we can produce and the kind of fidelity of response that we can give thio actors in the space whether that's a defender trying to defend the base or a maintenance person trying thio proactively replace the fan or clean the fan on an H vac system. So So you know, you know, there isn't a fire at a base or for, uh, interesting enough. One of the things that we we've been able to achieve is we've taken maintenance data for helicopter engines and And we've been able to proactively say, Hey, you need to You need to take care of this part of the helicopter engine. Um and it saves money. It saves downtimes. It keeps the birds in the air. And it's a relatively simple algorithm that we were able to achieve. And we were able to do that with the maintenance people, bring them along in this endeavor and create analytics that they understood and could trust on DSO. I think that's really the power of this base. >>Tremendous power. I wish we had more time to to dig into it. Guys, thank you so much for sharing. Not just your insights, what nobody is doing but your passion for what you're doing and how you're making such an impact. Your passion is definitely palpable. Steven. Kevin, Thank you for joining me today. >>Thank you >>for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the Cube? Virtual. Yeah,

(plane engine roars) (upbeat music) >> They call me Dr. Goh. I'm Senior Vice President and Chief Technology Officer of AI at Hewlett Packard Enterprise. And today I'm in Munich, Germany. Home to one and a half million people. Munich is famous for everything from BMW, to beer, to breathtaking architecture and festive markets. The Bavarian capital is the beating heart of Germany's automobile industry. Over 50,000 of its residents work in automotive engineering, and to date, Munich allocated around 30 million euros to boost electric vehicles and infrastructure for them. (upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, my name is Dr. Jerome Baudry. I am a professor at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. Our mission is to use a computational resources to accelerate the discovery of drugs that will be useful and efficient against the COVID-19 virus. On the one hand, there is this terrible crisis. And on the other hand, there is this absolutely unique and rare global effort to fight it. And that I think is a is a very positive thing. I am working with the Cray HPE machine called Sentinel. This machine is so amazing that it can actually mimic the screening of hundreds of thousands, almost millions of chemicals a day. What we take weeks, if not months, or years, we can do in a matter of a few days. And it's really the key to accelerating the discovery of new drugs, new pharmaceuticals. We are all in this together, thank you. (upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone. I'm so pleased to be here to interview Dr. Jerome Baudry, of the University of Alabama in Huntsville. >> Hello, Dr. Goh, I'm very happy to be meeting with you here, today. I have a lot of questions for you as well. And I'm looking forward to this conversation between us. >> Yes, yes, and I've got lots of COVID-19 and computational science questions lined up for you too Jerome. Yeah, so let's interview each other, then. >> Absolutely, let's do that, let's interview each other. I've got many questions for you. And , we have a lot in common and yet a lot of things we are addressing from a different point of view. So I'm very much looking forward to your ideas and insights. >> Yeah, especially now, with COVID-19, many of us will have to pivot a lot of our research and development work, to address the most current issues. I watch your video and I've seen that you're very much focused on drug discovery using super computing. The central notebook you did, I'm very excited about that. Can you tell us a bit more about how that works, yeah? >> Yes, I'd be happy to in fact, I watch your video as well manufacturing, and it's actually quite surprisingly close, what we do with drugs, and with what other people do with planes or cars or assembly lanes. we are calculating forces, on molecules, on drug candidates, when they hit parts of the viruses. And we essentially try to identify what small molecules will hit the viruses or its components, the hardest to mess with its function in a way. And that's not very different from what you're doing. What you are describing people in the industry or in the transportation industry are doing. So that's our problem, so to speak, is to deal with a lot of small molecules. Guy creating a lot of forces. That's not a main problem, our main problem is to make intelligent choices about what calculates, what kind of data should we incorporate in our calculations? And what kind of data should we give to the people who are going to do the testing? And that's really something I would like you to do to help us understand better. How do you see artificial intelligence, helping us, putting our hands on the right data to start with, in order to produce the right data and accuracy. >> Yeah, that's that's a great question. And it is a question that we've been pondering in our strategy as a company a lot recently. Because more and more now we realize that the data is being generated at the far out edge. By edge. I mean, something that's outside of the cloud and data center, right? Like, for example, a more recent COVID-19 work, doing a lot of cryo electron microscope work, right? To try and get high resolution pictures of the virus and at different angles, so creating lots of movies under electron microscope to try and create a 3D model of the virus. And we realize that's the edge, right, because that's where the microscope is, away from the data center. And massive amounts of data is generated, terabytes and terabytes of data per day generated. And we had to develop means, a workflow means to get that data off the microscope and provide pre-processing and processing, so that they can achieve results without delay. So we learned quite a few lessons there, right, especially trying to get the edge to be more intelligent, to deal with the onslaught of data coming in, from these devices. >> That's fantastic that you're saying that and that you're using this very example of cryo-EM, because that's the kind of data that feeds our computations. And indeed, we have found that it is very, very difficult to get the right cryo-EM data to us. Now we've been working with HPE supercomputer Sentinel, as you may know, for our COVID-19 work. So we have a lot of computational power. But we will be even faster and better, frankly, if we knew what kind of cryo-EM data to focus on. In fact, most of our discussions are based on not so much how to compute the forces of the molecules, which we do quite well on an HP supercomputer. But again, what cryo-EM 3D dimensional space to look at. And it's becoming almost a bottleneck. >> Have access to that. >> And we spend a lot of time, do you envision a point where AI will be able to help us, to make this kind of code almost live or at least as close to live as possible, as that that comes from the edge? How to pack it and not triage it, but prioritize it for the best possible computations on supercomputers? >> What a visionary question and desire, right? Like exactly the vision we have, right? Of course, the ultimate vision, you aim for the best, and that will be a real time stream of processed data coming off the microscope straight, providing your need, right? We are not there. Before this, we are far from there, right? But that's the aim, the ability to push more and more intelligence forward, so that by the time the data reaches you, it is what you need, right, without any further processing. And a lot of AI is applied there, particularly in cryo-EM where they do particle picking, right, they do a lot of active pictures and movies of the virus. And then what they do is, they rotate the virus a little bit, right? And then to try and figure out in all the different images in the movies, to try and pick the particles in there. And this is very much image processing that AI is very good at. So many different stages, application is made. The key thing, is to deal with the data that is flowing at this at this speed, and to get the data to you in the right form, that in time. So yes, that's the desire, right? >> It will be a game changer, really. You'll be able to get things in a matter of weeks, instead of a matter of years to the colleague who will be doing the best day. If the AI can help me learn from a calculation that didn't exactly turn out the way we want it to be, that will be very, very helpful. I can see, I can envision AI being able to, live AI to be able to really revolutionize all the process, not only from the discovery, but all the way to the clinical, to the patient, to the hospital. >> Well, that's a great point. In fact, I caught on to your term live AI. That's actually what we are trying to achieve. Although I have not used that term before. Perhaps I'll borrow it for next time. >> Oh please, by all means. >> You see, yes, we have done, I've been doing also recent work on gene expression data. So a vaccine, clinical trial, they have the blood, they get the blood from the volunteers after the first day. And then to run very, very fast AI analytics on the gene expression data that the one, the transcription data, before translation to emit amino acid. The transcription data is enormous. We're talking 30,000, 60,000 different items, transcripts, and how to use that high dimensional data to predict on day one, whether this volunteer will get an adverse event or will have a good antibody outcome, right? For efficacy. So yes, how to do it so quickly, right? To get the blood, go through an SA, right, get the transcript, and then run the analytics and AI to produce an outcome. So that's exactly what we're trying to achieve, yeah. Yes, I always emphasize that, ultimately, the doctor makes that decision. Yeah, AI only suggests based on the data, this is the likely outcome based on all the previous data that the machine has learned from, yeah. >> Oh, I agree, we wouldn't want the machine to decide the fate of the patient, but to assist the doctor or nurse making the decision that will be invaluable? And are you aware of any kind of industry that already is using this kind of live AI? And then, is there anything in, I don't know in sport or crowd control? Or is there any kind of industry? I will be curious to see who is ahead of us in terms of making this kind of a minute based decisions using AI? Yes, in fact, this is very pertinent question. We as In fact, COVID-19, lots of effort working on it, right? But now, industries and different countries are starting to work on returning to work, right, returning to their offices, returning to the factories, returning to the manufacturing plants, but yet, the employers need to reassure the employees that things, appropriate measures are taken for safety, but yet maintain privacy, right? So our Aruba organization actually developed a solution called contact location tracing inside buildings, inside factories, right? Why they built this, and needed a lot of machine learning methods in there to do very, very well, as you say, live AI right? To offer a solution? Well, let me describe the problem. The problem is, in certain countries, and certain states, certain cities where regulations require that, if someone is ill, right, you actually have to go in and disinfect the area person has been to, is a requirement. But if you don't know precisely where the ill person has been to, you actually disinfect the whole factory. And if you have that, if you do that, it becomes impractical and cost prohibitive for the company to keep operating profitably. So what they are doing today with Aruba is, that they carry this Bluetooth Low Energy tag, which is a quarter size, right? The reason they do that is, so that they extract the tag from the person, and then the system tracks, everybody, all the employees. We have one company, there's 10,000 employees, right? Tracks everybody with the tag. And if there is a person ill, immediately a floor plan is brought up with hotspots. And then you just targeted the cleaning services there. The same thing, contact tracing is also produced automatically, you could say, anybody that is come in contact with this person within two meters, and more than 15 minutes, right? It comes up the list. And we, privacy is our focused here. There's a separation between the tech and the person, on only restricted people are allowed to see the association. And then things like washrooms and all that are not tracked here. So yes, live AI, trying to make very, very quick decisions, right, because this affects people. >> Another question I have for you, if you have a minute, actually has to be the same thing. Though, it's more a question about hardware, about computer hardware purify may. We're having, we're spending a lot of time computing on number crunching giant machines, like Sentinel, for instance, which is a dream to use, but it's very good at something but when we pulled it off, also spent a lot of time moving back and forth, so data from clouds from storage, from AI processing, to the computing cycles back and forth, back and forth, did you envision an architecture, that will kind of, combine the hardware needed for a massively parallel calculations, kind of we are doing. And also very large storage, fast IO to be more AI friendly, so to speak. You see on the horizon, some kind of, I would say you need some machine, maybe it's to be determined, to be ambitious at times but something that, when the AI ahead plan in terms of passing the vector to the massively parallel side, yeah, that makes sense? >> Makes a lot of sense. And you ask it I know, because it is a tough problem to solve, as we always say, computation, right, is growing capability enormously. But bandwidth, you have to pay for, latency you sweat for, right? >> That's a very good >> So moving data is ultimately going to be the problem. >> It is. >> Yeah, and we've move the data a lot of times, right, >> You move back and forth, so many times >> Back and forth, back and forth, from the edge that's where you try to pre-process it, before you put it in storage, yeah. But then once it arrives in storage, you move it to memory to do some work and bring it back and move it memory again, right, and then that's what HPC, and then you put it back into storage, and then the AI comes in you, you do the learning, the other way around also. So lots of back and forth, right. So tough problem to solve. But more and more, we are looking at a new architecture, right? Currently, this architecture was built for the AI side first, but we're now looking and see how we can expand that. And this is that's the reason why we announced HPE Ezmeral Data Fabric. What it does is that, it takes care of the data, all the way from the edge point of view, the minute it is ingested at the edge, it is incorporated in the global namespace. So that eventually where the data arrives, lands at geographically one, or lands at, temperature, hot data, warm data or cold data, regardless of eventually where it lands at, this Data Fabric checks everything, from in a global namespace, in a unified way. So that's the first step. So that data is not seen as in different places, different pieces, it is a unified view of all the data, the minute that it does, Just start from the edge. >> I think it's important that we communicate that AI is purposed for good, A lot of sci-fi movies, unfortunately, showcase some psychotic computers or teams of evil scientists who want to take over the world. But how can we communicate better that it's a tool for a change, a tool for good? >> So key differences are I always point out is that, at least we have still judgment relative to the machine. And part of the reason we still have judgment is because our brain, logical center is automatically connected to our emotional center. So whatever our logic say is tempered by emotion, and whatever our emotion wants to act, wants to do, right, is tempered by our logic, right? But then AI machine is, many call them, artificial specific intelligence. They are just focused on that decision making and are not connected to other more culturally sensitive or emotionally sensitive type networks. They are focus networks. Although there are people trying to build them, right. That's this power, reason why with judgment, I always use the phrase, right, what's correct, is not always the right thing to do. There is a difference, right? We need to be there to be the last Judge of what's right, right? >> Yeah. >> So that says one of the the big thing, the other one, I bring up is that humans are different from machines, generally, in a sense that, we are highly subtractive. We, filter, right? Well, machine is highly accumulative today. So an AI machine they accumulate to bring in lots of data and tune the network, but our brains a few people realize, we've been working with brain researchers in our work, right? Between three and 30 years old, our brain actually goes through a pruning process of our connections. So for those of us like me after 30 it's done right. (laughs) >> Wait till you reach my age. >> Keep the brain active, because it prunes away connections you don't use, to try and conserve energy, right? I always say, remind our engineers about this point, about prunings because of energy efficiency, right? A slice of pizza drives our brain for three hours. (laughs) That's why, sometimes when I get need to get my engineers to work longer, I just offer them pizza, three more hours, >> Pizza is universal solution to our problems, absolutely. Food Indeed, indeed. There is always a need for a human consciousness. It's not just a logic, it's not like Mr. Spock in "Star Trek," who always speaks about logic but forgets the humanity aspect of it. >> Yes, yes, The connection between the the logic centers and emotional centers, >> You said it very well. Yeah, yeah and the thing is, sleep researchers are saying that when you don't get enough REM sleep, this connection is weakened. Therefore, therefore your decision making gets affected if you don't get enough sleep. So I was thinking, people do alcohol test breathalyzer test before they are allowed to operate sensitive or make sensitive decisions. Perhaps in the future, you have to check whether you have enough REM sleep before, >> It is. This COVID-19 crisis obviously problematic, and I wish it never happened, but there is something that I never experienced before is, how people are talking to each other, people like you and me, we have a lot in common. But I hear more about the industry outside of my field. And I talk a lot to people, like cryo-EM people or gene expression people, I would have gotten the data before and process it. Now, we have a dialogue across the board in all aspects of industry, science, and society. And I think that could be something wonderful that we should keep after we finally fix this bug. >> Yes. yes, yes. >> Right? >> Yes, that's that's a great point. In fact, it's something I've been thinking about, right, for employees, things have changed, because of COVID-19. But very likely, the change will continue, yeah? >> Right. Yes, yes, because there are a few positive outcomes. COVID-19 is a tough outcome. But there positive side of things, like communicating in this way, effectively. So we were part of the consortium that developed a natural language processing system in AI system that would allow you scientists to do, I can say, with the link to that website, allows you to do a query. So say, tell me the latest on the binding energy between the Sasko B2 virus like protein and the AC receptor. And then you will, it will give you a list of 10 answers, yeah? And give you a link to the papers that say, they say those answers. If you key that in today to NLP, you see 315 points -13.7 kcal per mole, which is right, I think the general consensus answer, and see a few that are highly out of out of range, right? And then when you go further, you realize those are the earlier papers. So I think this NLP system will be useful. (both chattering) I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I mentioned yesterday about it, because I have used that, and it's a game changer indeed, it is amazing, indeed. Many times by using this kind of intelligent conceptual, analyzes a very direct use, that indeed you guys are developing, I have found connections between facts, between clinical or pharmaceutical aspects of COVID-19. That I wasn't really aware of. So a it's a tool for creativity as well, I find it, it builds something. It just doesn't analyze what has been done, but it creates the connections, it creates a network of knowledge and intelligence. >> That's why three to 30 years old, when it stops pruning. >> I know, I know. (laughs) But our children are amazing, in that respect, they see things that we don't see anymore. they make connections that we don't necessarily think of, because we're used to seeing a certain way. And the eyes of a child, are bringing always something new, which I think is what AI could potentially bring here. So look, this is fascinating, really. >> Yes, yes, difference between filtering subtractive and the machine being accumulative. That's why I believe, the two working together, can have a stronger outcome if used properly. >> Absolutely. And I think that's how AI will be a force for good indeed. Obviously see, seems that we would have missed that would end up being very important. Well, we are very interested in or in our quest for drug discovery against COVID-19, we have been quite successful so far. We have accelerated the process by an order of magnitude. So we're having molecules that are being tested against the virus, otherwise, it would have taken maybe three or four years to get to that point. So first thing, we have been very fast. But we are very interested in natural products, that chemicals that come from plants, essentially. We found a way to mine, I don't want to say explore it, but leverage, that knowledge of hundreds of years of people documenting in a very historical way of what plants do against what diseases in different parts of the world. So that really has been a, not only very useful in our work, but a fantastic bridge to our common human history, basically. And second, yes, plants have chemicals. And of course we love chemicals. Every living cell has chemicals. The chemicals that are in plants, have been fine tuned by evolution to actually have some biological function. They are not there just to look good. They have a role in the cell. And if we're trying to come up with a new growth from scratch, which is also something we want to do, of course, then we have to engineer a function that evolution hasn't already found a solution to, for in plants, so in a way, it's also artificial intelligence. We have natural solutions to our problems, why don't we try to find them and see their work in ourselves, we're going to, and this is certainly have to reinvent the wheel each time. >> Hundreds of millions of years of evolution, >> Hundreds of millions of years. >> Many iterations, >> Yes, ending millions of different plants with all kinds of chemical diversity. So we have a lot of that, at our disposal here. If only we find the right way to analyze them, and bring them to our supercomputers, then we will, we will really leverage this humongus amount of knowledge. Instead of having to reinvent the wheel each time we want to take a car, we'll find that there are cars whose wheels already that we should be borrowing instead of, building one each time. Most of the keys are out there, if we can find them, They' re at our disposal. >> Yeah, nature has done the work after hundreds of millions of years. >> Yes. (chattering) Is to figure out, which is it, yeah? Exactly, exactly hence the importance of biodiversity. >> Yeah, I think this is related to the Knowledge Graph, right? Where, yes, to objects and the linking parameter, right? And then you have hundreds of millions of these right? A chemical to an outcome and the link to it, right? >> Yes, that's exactly what it is, absolutely the kind of things we're pursuing very much, so absolutely. >> Not only only building the graph, but building the dynamics of the graph, In the future, if you eat too much Creme Brulee, or if you don't run enough, or if you sleep, well, then your cells, will have different connections on this graph of the ages, will interact with that molecule in a different way than if you had more sleep or didn't eat that much Creme Brulee or exercise a bit more, >> So insightful, Dr. Baudry. Your, span of knowledge, right, impressed me. And it's such fascinating talking to you. (chattering) Hopefully next time, when we get together, we'll have a bit of Creme Brulee together. >> Yes, let's find out scientifically what it does, we have to do double blind and try three times to make sure we get the right statistics. >> Three phases, three clinical trial phases, right? >> It's been a pleasure talking to you. I like we agreed, you knows this, for all that COVID-19 problems, the way that people talk to each other is, I think the things that I want to keep in this in our post COVID-19 world. I appreciate very much your insight and it's very encouraging the way you see things. So let's make it happen. >> We will work together Dr.Baudry, hope to see you soon, in person. >> Indeed in person, yes. Thank you. >> Thank you, good talking to you.

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hi everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here in Paolo Alto, California but during COVID, we're doin' all the remote interviews and gettin' the stories and celebrating the awards for the Partner Awards Show. And the award here is most customer-obsessed mission-based win in the federal area. We've got two great guests, Greg Siegel Senior Manager at Accenture and Frank Urbano Program Manager with the FBI Federal Bureau of Investigation. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me and congratulations on the win. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So let's break this down. So you're federal, big category, a lot of intelligence agencies been using the gov cloud and Amazon. What's the mission win? What's the award for? Tell us. >> So I guess the award is the Bureau was shutting down our data centers and we needed to move to an infrastructure that would support our application. That was the first problem that we were trying to actually solve. But also, we know we were always seeing a performance hit on our infrastructure, and we always suspected that by moving to the gov cloud, we'll see an increase in performance because once we went live in our current, in or old environment seven years ago, performance was always an issue, our end users were always complaining and then we moved to our VMs four years after that. We saw an increase in performance a little bit but then once we moved over to the cloud, the FBI secret cloud, we heard crickets. The end users haven't been complaining. Greg and I were actually talking about that the other day how, you know, there's minimal complaints as far as performance. That's going to be one of the themes you hear throughout is performance, performance, performance. >> Got to love the no complaints, that means it's workin', people are doin' their job, gettin' the job done. Greg, I want to get your thoughts on this because Accenture, we've had many conversations with you guys over there about being agile and now you're a partner. You know, the FBI, I saw a presentation in person at Reinvent, I think last year where the FBI was like, "Lookit, our workloads "are increasing and budget isn't increasing "at the same rate." So it's kind of like, you know, "I need more power." It's like that scene in Star Trek, "Scotty, more power," you need to get that power. Take us through that transformation because one, you got a good user experience. That means people are doin' their job. But the cases get bigger, the more workload is there, but the budget's got to be increased or leveraged better. What's your thoughts? How do you tackle that problem because it's do more with less, classic do more with less. >> That's right. Yeah, so as Frank said, I think the system had been live for about seven years and you see over that time in the traditional data centers how the performance requirements increase but as you said, are kind of there on hardware and not easily able to adapt and overcome those. So, you know, when it became clear that the cloud move was a serious consideration we were able to pull on a few other experiences that the firm has had moving similar technologies to the cloud and then kind of combined that with the experience implementing technology at the FBI. And those two components kind of together were able to get us on a path to successfully move to the cloud and be, you know, kind of one of the first big systems at the FBI to make that transition. So that was our approach. >> Frank, I'd like to ask, you mentioned crickets. That means, that's good, actually. No one's complaining. What was it like before when you had the data center? What were some of the complaints? What were some of the challenges that you were dealing with? >> So (chuckling) so some of the challenges we were dealing with was, to give an example, when we went live seven years ago, we actually deployed our application on hardware that was already end of life. And so immediately we saw challenges there. And so by moving to the cloud, it gave us a lot of architectural flexibility. And what I mean by that is that we control, now, our own destiny, meaning that in the past, we would have to put in change requests to have firewall configuration changes. Now that responsibility is with us. Our DBAs had limited access to actually do some type of performance tuning on the backend to our databases. Now we have full control of that. I guess a couple of examples, or one example that I would give is that we're in the COVID era, as you mentioned, right? We have a space where we, prior to COVID, we had about 70 people on staff, both government and at Accenture. And all of our development is done on the secret side. And we have major deliverables due at the end of September. Well, COVID hits, we now have to social distance and come up with a plan, and we have to have reduce our staff of 70, both functional developers down to anywhere between 10 people or less on-site. So that, right there, you know, we were talking major hit in our development effort and in cost, I guess, also. While we're doing our social distancing plan Greg came up to me and said, "Hey, why don't we move "our development environment and our test environment "to the gov cloud and scramble the data. "We'll be able to have our developers remote access in "and continue with our development efforts?" And I told Greg, "Great, put a plan together. "Let's talk to our information security officer." I said, "If he signs off on it, let's get off and running." We met with him, he signed off on them, and within two weeks that dev and test environment was up and running. And now, we're still on-track to meet our deliverable dates in September. >> That's a great example, well, that's awesome insight. Greg, expand on that because this is an example of agility. You talk about readiness, I mean it's unforecasted disruption, there's all kinds of use cases. "Oh, we have a hurricane," or whatever, you know. This is unforeseen and unique. Take us through-- >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. >> The agility piece here, on how you got deployed, time frame, and solution. >> Yeah, definitely. So yeah, it can't be overstated how much of a benefit it was that we had already gone through the process of refactoring a lot of our applications into the cloud and using some of those services available and, you know, able to containerize and take some of those application from where they were, as Frank mentioned, scramble the data, and then able to quickly use the cloud experience that we had to stand up an environment in gov cloud where it was more accessible for development that didn't need to take place on-site, was, essentially, the saving grace. We would have had major slowdowns in delivery, as Frank mentioned and a lot of cost implications there, so it really can't be overstated how much that experience having gone through it and being in a spot where we had that flexibility to quickly replicate our architecture, went a long way towards keeping the mission going as the world deals with the pandemic. >> Yeah, this is just a striking example. You know, first of all, I'm a cloud-biased person. I'm very much a, I lean heavily towards pro-cloud so I'll just say this as total bias. There are companies that have gone cloud and took advantage of that refactoring or reinvention and are in a position not only to hit the deadlines but also be in a position of growth strategy, or in this case, a mission-based expansion for the FBI, as Frank was alluding to. Could you imagine, Frank, if you had the data center challenge and you weren't in the cloud? And the you had to go to Greg, or somebody, and say, "Hey, what do you do?" So imagine you had the data center, and then COVID hits. A lot of people are on that side of the street, right now, goin', "What do we do?" >> Yeah, yeah we would have been dead in the water as Greg mentioned. You know, all of our work streams would have been forced out to the left. I couldn't even imagine, you know, the timelines that we would have had to come up with because we would have had to have come up with some rotation plan to develop, you know, team one can only come in on Mondays and Tuesdays and then team two would come in on Wednesdays and Thursdays which would have pushed out our delivery dates and as Greg mentioned also, cost goes up. Time is money, money's time. >> Yeah, I totally, and people goin' out of business because of it and, or settin' their mission back you know, decades. Greg, talk about what goes on next because obviously, congratulations on being a customer success, it's a great mission win here, but you got to get through this. So how are you guys huddling on this point? What are the conversations? What are you thinking? >> Yeah, so now we're at a point where I think, as I'd mentioned, when we first moved to the cloud, the primary mission was getting there securely, getting there within policy, and getting operational so we were making trade-off decisions on where to lift and shift, and where to refactor. Got through all of that successfully. Got through the initial challenge of COVID which definitely threw some of the plans for a loop as we shifted our operations and focused on getting operational in gov cloud. And now we are at a point where we've stabilized delivery again, and we're re-picking up where we left off on the cloud journey which is really focused now, on continuing to look at the investments that AWS is making in the technologies that are coming next. And it really enables us to get ahead of the trends, easily analyze some of these services, available, and then we enter into conversations with Frank and others and start making those trade-off decisions of when it's time to refactor, retire another part of our application and start to look to go cloud-native. So that's where we are now, is looking for ways to maximize and use those services to, again, save costs, improve performance, all of those things that go along with getting more and more mature in the cloud. >> You know, one of the things, Frank, I want to hear your thoughts on just as while I got you guys here is you think about old school, old guard, as Andy Jassy would say, or Teresa talk about. You got silos and you got all these things: legacy. Okay, got that. But as you guys look at your mission have secure data, catch the bad guys, and protect citizens, right? So (chuckling) I mean, I'm over-simplifying but generally, that's it. Data's critical, right? I mean, speed to the edge of the network which is the field and the people doing the job, is critical. Cloud has an opportunity to make that development cycle faster, and ultimately, the workloads and the impact. Could you share your thoughts on how the cloud and Amazon are bringin' that to the table because havin' the right data at the right time could mean the difference between life or death. >> Yeah, so Greg and I experienced this, and again, it's all about having that architectural flexibility, right? So back in February, we had a requirement where we had to expose a large amount of data to employees about themselves, but not only about themselves, but also to their managers. And so, you know, we went through the basic you know, develop it, and then put it into our test environment, however the problem that we had was that we couldn't assimilate the large amount of data that we're exposing to 40,000 FBI employees. Because when we tested out, everything seemed to go fine, but as luck would have it, once we went operational, the application crashed. Our two main engineers come in my office and within 30 minutes, they identified the problem, they had the solution, and we already implemented the solution. Within 30 minutes. You know, going back in the past, like seven years, like you were mentioning, back in the old days, I would have to go around, beg for funding, buy hardware, then I would have to submit a requisition. It would have to go through the approval process. We then would have to procure the hardware, receive the hardware, install it, test it out, load the application, test it again, and then go into Ops. You know, you're lookin' anywhere from a three month to a nine month delay right then and there that our engineers were able to solve within 30 minutes. >> I mean, again, I'm back to my bias again. I'm old enough to remember when I was in college. I mean, I never programmed on punch cards, so that's kind of dates me, (chuckling) but so I'm post punch card generation. I used to look at the guys runnin' the mainframes sayin', "Look at those old relics over there," and "huggin' the mainframe." But what they did was that the smart people repurposed and got into mini-computers, they got into networking, LANs and PCs. This is kind of the cloud moment where if you're going to hold onto that old way you're going to have that operating model, it's just not effective in any way. I just don't see any benefit, other than have a preserved workload that needs the certain data, or you put containers around it and you can bring that in, but there are those corner cases. But generally speaking, you got to move to the new model. >> Mm-hmm. >> Guys, react to that. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah. >> Evermore. Yeah. >> Yeah, I agree, I mean It can't really be overstated, just the flexibility that exists. I think a lot of times, people get hung up on the you know, most efficient way to move to the cloud or you have to use X amount of cloud services. But it can't be overstated, regardless of the approach that you take to making that migration, that once you are there, the kind of intangibles that you get, the ease to take an idea and test it out, flip the switch on, flip the switch off if you like it or not. It's really just opened the door for the team to take some of the more innovative ideas and we have regular conversations with Frank and others that I think are fun for all of us where we get to look at some of these things and we can actually think about and envision how to get them in without, to Frank's point, "putting in requisitions," doing major activities that are going to derail our other schedules to pilot some of these new ideas. >> Frank, you got to attract some, it's a personnel challenge, too. You want to attract young minds, smart, young people. They want what's contemporary and they want state-of-the-art, they want to be in the right positions, drivin' the right, fastest car they can, and being successful. There's a staff component. What's your thoughts on that? Because, you know, if a young person comes in it's like, "Hey, I want to rock and roll with this new stuff, "not the old stuff I see there." >> Right. >> And so Greg put together an innovation team where we have these great, young minds, right? And you know, they're always bringing different ideas, different services that we can utilize on AWS, and sometimes Greg and I have to pull the reins on 'em, like, "Okay, we'll do that, but we have "major applications that we got to develop and deploy." But it's always refreshing and great to see young people with their innovative ideas that they bring to the table. >> Well, final question for you guys, while I got ya here. You know, I've been reporting, we've been saying on these CUBE interviews, trying to make sense of this COVID environment, what's goin' on and what it exposes. And you can see the obvious things. But it generally exposes this great IoT experiment. We're all IoT devices at this point. You've got work places which are not home and office, workforces which are remote, workloads and workflows that are changing, new things are happening. How do you guys see this? Because it ultimately opens up the fact that the architecture has to support multiple endpoints, edge of the network, new connections, new workflows. How are you guys looking at this? What's your vision on this? >> So Greg, I'll take a first crack at it from a Bureau employee being with the Bureau for 31 years. I would never have thought in my wildest dreams that we'd actually have people workin' from home and being able to remote in, and actually do development. And we did it all within two weeks. It's just incredible the obstacles that the team overcome, but also the flexibility of the FBI leadership, knowing that this had to happen in order to, for continuity of operations. >> Great point, great insight. Greg, your thoughts. >> Yeah, I agree with everything that Frank said. It's been a great partnership and I think that the nice thing that surprised us all was when it got down to it, the security controls and requirements were there and able to be met with the tools at our disposal. So I think the great fear that everybody had to Frank's point, it just wasn't something that was normal to this point. But as we were all forced to reevaluate what we had to do, the fear was, "Well, what accommodations are we "going to have to make from a security standpoint?" And the answer was being able to operate again without exposing any of that data, the risk was really extremely low, to zero. All the folks from security we're able to work closely with in partnership, and make this happen again so we can keep delivering the mission. So I think that partnership and getting through it together and all feeling really comfortable that we're doing it in a secure way was really what enabled us to be successful. >> That's a great point. Frank, he brings up something I didn't bring up which is super important. You mentioned in the old way you got to get all these requisitions in purchase. Security is the same kind of new dynamic which is like, "Okay, you got to get "everything tested," but it goes faster when you have the cloud 'cause that's also another criteria, you got to still got to get the approvals whether you're working with another vendor or integrating with another app. That's still now the new issue. So that's got to be approved faster, so that's also now a bottleneck. How does cloud help make those security reviews go faster? >> Right, so so we were the first ones on the cloud. So or security team was still defining the ATO process for us. However, what we did was we aligned ourselves with that team so that we could meet all the security requirements, but also app out all the security controls. And so from the time that we actually had the design till we went into deployment onto the SC2S or the cloud, and we went through the ATO process, it only took us eight months which really, in the past, that effort could have took anywhere from a year and a half to two years just because of the old ATO process. >> Awesome. Well, Greg and Frank, congratulations on a great award, Amazon Public Sector Partner Awards Show, most customer-obsessed mission-based win in the federal category. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. 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from around the globe it's thecube covering space and cyber security symposium 2020 hosted by cal poly hello and welcome to thecube's coverage we're here hosting with cal poly an amazing event space in the intersection of cyber security this session is defending satellite and space infrastructure from cyber threats got two great guests we've got major general john shaw combined four space component commander u.s space command and vandenberg air force base in california and roland cuello who's the ceo of maverick space systems gentlemen thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the cal poly space and cyber security symposium appreciate it absolutely um guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain obviously it's a war warfighting domain it's also the future of the world and this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical everyone knows how their phones work and gps just small examples of all the impacts i'd like to discuss with this hour this topic with you guys so if we can have you guys do an opening statement general if you can start with your opening statement we'll take it from there thanks john and greetings from vandenberg air force base we are just down the road from cal poly here on the central coast of california and uh very proud to be part of this uh effort and part of the partnership that we have with with cal poly on a number of fronts um i should uh so in in my job here i actually uh have two hats that i wear and it's i think worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion you know we had two major organizational events within our department of defense with regard to space last year in 2019 and probably the one that made the most headlines was the stand-up of the united states space force that happened uh december 20th last year and again momentous the first new branch in our military since 1947 uh and uh it is a it's just over nine months old now as we're making this recording uh and already we're seeing a lot of change uh with regard to how we're approaching uh organizing training and equipping on a service side or space capabilities and so i uh in that with regard to the space force the hat i wear there is commander of space operations command that was what was once 14th air force when we were still part of the air force here at vandenberg and in that role i'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective didn't make quite as many headlines but another major change that happened last year was the uh the reincarnation i guess i would say of united states space command and that is a combatant command it's how our department of defense organizes to actually conduct warfighting operations um most people are more familiar perhaps with uh central command centcom or northern command northcom or even strategic command stratcom well now we have a space com we actually had one from 1985 until 2002 and then stood it down in the wake of the 9 11 attacks and a reorganization of homeland security but we've now stood up a separate command again operationally to conduct joint space operations and in that organization i wear a hat as a component commander and that's the combined force-based component command uh working with other all the additional capabilities that other services bring as well as our allies that combined in that title means that uh i under certain circumstances i would lead an allied effort uh in space operations and so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of california uh both working the uh how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the space force side and then how we actually operate those capabilities it's a point of joint in support of joint warfighters around the world um and and national security interests so that's the context now what el i i also should mention you kind of alluded to john you're beginning that we're kind of in a change situation than we were a number of years ago and that space we now see space as a warfighting domain for most of my career going back a little ways most of my my focus in my jobs was making sure i could bring space capabilities to those that needed them bringing gps to that special operations uh soldier on the ground somewhere in the world bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control bringing those capabilities for other uses but i didn't have to worry in most of my career about actually defending those space capabilities themselves well now we do we've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space we now are treating it more like any other domain normalizing in that regard as a warfighting domain and so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space to to design our capabilities to be defended and perhaps most of all to train our people for this new mission set so it's a very exciting time and i know we'll get into it but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe without talking about cyber because they fit together very closely so anyway thanks for the chance to be here today and i look forward to the discussion general thank you so much for that opening statement and i would just say that not only is it historic with the space force it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities for to do more and to do things differently so i appreciate that statement roland your opening statement your your job is to put stuff in space faster cheaper smaller better your opening statement please um yes um thank you john um and yes you know to um general shaw's point you know with with the space domain and the need to protect it now um is incredibly important and i hope that we are more of a help um than a thorn in your side um in terms of you know building satellites smaller faster cheaper um you know and um definitely looking forward to this discussion and you know figuring out ways where um the entire space domain can work together you know from industry to to us government even to the academic environment as well so first would like to say and preface this by saying i am not a cyber security expert um we you know we build satellites um and uh we launch them into orbit um but we are by no means you know cyber security experts and that's why um you know we like to partner with organizations like the california cyber security institute because they help us you know navigate these requirements um so um so i'm the ceo of um of maverick space systems we are a small aerospace business in san luis obispo california and we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers all the way from the academic environment to the us government and everything in between we support customers through an entire you know program life cycle from mission architecture and formulation all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit and so what we try to do is um provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate so whether it be reducing mass or volume um creating greater launch opportunities or providing um the infrastructure and the technology um to help those innovations you know mature in orbit you know that's you know that's what we do our team has experienced over the last 20 years working with small satellites and definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the cubesat standard by cal poly and stanford uh back in 2000 and so you know we are in you know vandenberg's backyard um we came from cal poly san luis obispo um and you know our um our hearts are fond you know of this area and working with the local community um a lot of that success um that we have had is directly attributable um to the experiences that we learned as students um working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors um you know that's you know all you know thanks to cal poly so just wanted to tell a quick story so you know back in 2000 just imagine a small group of undergraduate students you know myself included with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a russian launch vehicle um you know many of us were only 18 or 19 not even at the legal age to drink yet um but as you know essentially teenagers we're managing million dollar budgets um and we're coordinating groups um from around the world um and we knew that we knew what we needed to accomplish um yet we didn't really know um what we were doing when we first started um the university was extremely supportive um and you know that's the cal poly learn by doing philosophy um i remember you know the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel and we were discussing the need to to register with the state department for itar nobody really knew what itar was back then um and you know discussing this with the chief legal counsel um you know she was asking what is itar um and we essentially had to explain you know this is um launching satellites as part of the um the u.s munitions list and essentially we have a similar situation you know exporting munitions um you know we are in similar categories um you know as you know as weapons um and so you know after that initial shock um everybody jumped in you know both feet forward um the university um you know our head legal counsel professors mentors and the students um you know knew we needed to tackle this problem um because you know the the need was there um to launch these small satellites and um you know the the reason you know this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community um is that the technology and the you know innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels you know so we have academia commercial national governments we even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and you know building satellite hardware um and the thing is you know the the importance of cyber security is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches you know people um at a very young age um and so you know we hope to have a conversation today um to figure out you know how do we um create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive but we also you know protect and you know keep their data safe as well thank you very much roland appreciate that uh story too as well thanks for your opening statement gentlemen i mean i love this topic because defending the assets in space is is as obvious um you look at it but there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now and generally you kind of pointed out the historic nature of space force and how it's changing already operationally training skills tools all that stuff is revolving you know in the tech world that i live in you know change the world is a topic they use that's thrown around a lot you can change the world a lot of young people we have just other panels on this where we're talking about how to motivate young people changing the world is what it's all about with technology for the better evolution is just an extension of another domain in this case space is just an extension of other domains similar things are happening but it's different there's a huge opportunity to change the world so it's faster there's an expanded commercial landscape out there certainly government space systems are moving and changing how do we address the importance of cyber security in space general we'll start with you because this is real it's exciting if you're a young person there's touch points of things to jump into tech building hardware to changing laws and and everything in between is an opportunity and it's exciting and it's truly a chance to change the world how does the commercial government space systems teams address the importance of cyber security so john i think it starts with with the realization that as i like to say that cyber and space are bffs uh there's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavy reliant heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber and frankly there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application and when you realize that you see how how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at at speed it becomes fundamental to to the to answering your question let me give a couple examples we one of the biggest challenges i have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain those on the on the on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans across large land masses and i talk about the tyranny of volume and you know right now we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere there's activity that's extending out to the out there we expect nasa to be conducting uh perhaps uh human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years so it extends out that far when you do the math that's a huge volume how do you do that how do you understand what's happening in real time in within that volume it is a big data problem by the very definition of that that kind of effort to that kind of challenge and to do it successfully in the years ahead it's going to require many many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena and that's just if people are not up to mischief once you have threats introduced into that environment it is even more challenging so i'd say it's a big data problem that we'll be enjoying uh tackling in the years ahead a second example is you know we if i if i had to if we had to take a vote of what were the most uh amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans i think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list whether it's the nasa spacecraft that explore other planets or the ones that we or gps satellites that that amazingly uh provide a wonderful service to the entire globe uh and beyond they are amazing technological machines that's not going to stop i mean all the work that roland talked about at the at the even even that we're doing it at the kind of the microsoft level is is putting cutting-edge technology into smaller packages you can to get some sort of capability out of that as we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes or for exploration or commercial or civil the the cutting edge technologies of uh artificial intelligence uh and machine to machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward um and then there's the threat piece as we try to as we operate these these capabilities how these constellations grow that's going to be done via networks and as i've already pointed out space is a warfighting domain that means those networks will come under attack we expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict it may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time everywhere in many sectors of of activity and so by painting that picture you kind of get you we start to see how it's intertwined at the very very base most basic level the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space with that then comes the need to any cutting edge cyber security capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities and we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning we haven't done that in the past as well as we should but moving forward from this point on it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our new capability roland we're talking about now critical infrastructure we're talking about new capabilities being addressed really fast so it's kind of chaotic now there's threats so it's not as easy as just having capabilities because you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out but now you've got critical infrastructure which then will enable other things down down the line how do you protect it how do we address this how do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint because you know malware these techniques can be mapped in as extended into into space and takeovers wartime peacetime these things are all going to be under threat that's pretty well understood i think people kind of get that how do we address it what's your what's your take yeah you know absolutely and you know i couldn't agree more with general shaw you know with cyber security and space being so intertwined um and you know i think with fast and rapid innovation um comes you know the opportunity for threats especially um if you have bad actors um that you know want to cause harm and so you know as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds um you kind of have a common goal of um you know doing the best you can um and you know pushing the technology balance making it smaller faster cheaper um but a lot of times what entrepreneurs and you know small businesses and supply chains um are doing and don't realize it is a lot of these components are dual use right i mean you could have a very benign commercial application but then a small you know modification to it and turn it into a military application and if you do have these bad actors they can exploit that and so you know i think the the big thing is um creating a organization that is you know non-biased that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cyber security in space i think you know one group that would be perfect for that you know is um cci um you know they understand both the cybersecurity side of things and they also have you know at cal poly um you know the the small satellite group um and you know just having kind of a a clearinghouse or um an agency where um can provide information that is free um you know you don't need a membership for and to be able to kind of collect that but also you know reach out to the entire value chain you know for a mission and um making them aware um of you know what potential capabilities are and then how it might um be you know potentially used as a weapon um and you know keeping them informed because i think you know the the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing and so how do we get that information free flowing to you know to the us government so that they can take that information create assessments and be able to not necessarily um stop threats from occurring presently but identify them long before that they would ever even happen um yeah that's you know general i want to i want to follow up on that real quick before we go to the next talk track critical infrastructure um you mentioned you know across the oceans long distance volume you know when you look at the physical world you know you had you know power grids here united states you had geography you had perimeters uh the notion of a perimeter and the moat this is and then you had digital comes in then you have we saw software open up and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter and from a defense standpoint and that everything changed and we had to fortify those critical assets uh in the u.s space increases the same problem statement significantly because it's you can't just have a perimeter you can't have a moat it's open it's everywhere like what digital's done and that's why we've seen a slurge of cyber in the past two decades attacks with software so this isn't going to go away you need the critical infrastructure you're putting it up there you're formulating it and you've got to protect it how do you view that because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement what's the current thinking yeah i i think my sense is a mindset that you can build a a firewall or a defense or some other uh system that isn't dynamic in his own right is probably not heading in the right direction i think cyber security in the future whether it's for our space systems or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine um a speed and dynamic um i don't think it's too far off where we will have uh machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them and by the way the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing and so i i guess i would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough it's probably going to be a constantly evolving capability constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats that's the kind of use case just to kind of you know as you were kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors i mean i tell my young kids and everyone man it's more exciting now i wish i was 18 again it's so so exciting with ai bro i want to get your thoughts we were joking on another panel with the dod around space and the importance of it obviously and we're going to have that here and then we had a joke it's like oh software's defined everything it says software's everything ai and and i said well here in the united states companies had data centers and they went to the cloud and they said you can't do break fix it's hard to do break fix in space you can't just send a tech up i get that today but soon maybe robotics the general mentions robotics technologies and referencing some of the accomplishments fixing things is almost impossible in space but maybe form factors might get better certainly software will play a role what's your thoughts on that that landscape yeah absolutely you know for for software in orbit um you know there's there's a push for you know software-defined radios um to basically go from hardware to software um and you know that's that that's a critical link um if you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board you could you know take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc and so you know creating standards and you know that kind of um initial threshold of security um you know for let's say you know these radios you know communications and making that um available um to the entire supply chain to the satellite builders um and operators you know is incredibly key and you know that's again one of the initiatives that um that cci is um is tackling right now as well general i want to get your thoughts on best practices around cyber security um state of the art today uh and then some guiding principles and kind of how the if you shoot the trajectory forward what what might happen uh around um supply chain there's been many stories where oh we outsourced the chips and there's a little chip sitting in a thing and it's built by someone else in china and the software is written from someone in europe and the united states assembles it it gets shipped and it's it's corrupt and it has some cyber crime making i'm oversimplifying the the statement but this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property uh from multiple partners whether it's from software to creation and then deployment you get supply chain tiers what are some of the best practices that you see involving that don't stunt the innovation but continues to innovate but people can operate safely what's your thoughts yeah so on supply chain i think i think the symposium here is going to get to hear from lieutenant general jt thompson uh from space missile system center down in los angeles and and uh he's a he's just down the road from us there uh on the coast um and his team is is the one that we look to really focus on as he acquires and develop again bake in cyber security from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from and and properly assessing those as you as you put together your space systems is a key uh piece of what his team is focused on so i expect we'll hear him talk about that when it talks to i think she asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward well another way that we don't do it right is if we take a long time to build something and then you know general general jt thompson's folks take a while to build something and then they hand it over to to to me and my team to operate and then they go hands-free and and then and then that's you know that's what i have for for years to operate until the next thing comes along that's a little old school what we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go we actually have partnership between general thompson's team and mine here at vandenberg on our ops floor or our combined space operations center that are actually working in real time together better tools that we can use to understand what's going on the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications to space domain awareness sensors and such and so and we're developing those capabilities in real time it's a dev and and with the security pieces so devsecops is we're practicing that in in real time i think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve but it has to be done again in close partnership all the time it's not a sequential industrial age process while i'm on the subject of partnerships so general thompson's and team and mine have good partnerships it's part partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful and that uh it means with with academia in some of the relationships that we have here with cal poly it's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before the old style business was to work with just a few large um companies that had a lot of space experience well we need we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities and i expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of and and organizations being part of that partnership that will work going forward i mentioned at the beginning that um uh allies are important to us so everything that uh that role and i've been talking about i think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships right it doesn't help me uh as a combined force component commander which is again one of my jobs it doesn't help me if the united states capabilities are cyber secure but i'm trying to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cyber secure so that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together so again close partnering continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors with as many um different sectors of our economy uh as possible are the ingredients to success general i'd love to just follow up real quick i was having just a quick reminder for a conversation i had with last year with general keith alexander who was does a lot of cyber security work and he was talking about the need to share faster and the new school is you got to share faster and to get the data you mentioned observability earlier you need to see what everything's out there he's a real passionate person around getting the data getting it fast and having trusted partners so that's not it's kind of evolving as i mean sharing is a well-known practice but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially so there's a trust relationship there's now a new ecosystem that's new for uh government how do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber so it's i don't know if it's necessarily new but it's at a scale that we've never seen before and by the way it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective classification of data and information at various levels and then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors whether it's commercial academic or allies so it gets very very uh a complex web very quickly um so that's part of the challenge we're working through how can we how can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion it is certainly not optimal today it's it's very difficult even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that i could see a solution in the future where our cyber security is good enough that maybe i only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment um to uh to make that all happen as quickly as possible so you've actually uh john you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have is um is evolving our networks to properly share with the right people at the right uh clearance levels as at speed of war which is what we're going to need yeah and i wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity again this discussion here at cal poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems and um it's again it's super exciting if you you know you're geeking out on this it's if you have a tech degree or you're interested in changing the world there's so many new things that could be applied right now roland will get your thoughts on this because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing this is a massive shift all the theaters of the tech industry are are changing rapidly at the same time okay and it affects policy law but also deep tech the startup communities are super important in all this too we can't forget them obviously the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives but your story about being in the dorm room now you got the boardroom and now you got everything in between you have startups out there that want to and can contribute and you know what's an itar i mean i got all these acronym certifications is there a community motion to bring startups in in a safe way but also give them a ability to contribute because you look at open source that proved everyone wrong on software that's happening now with this now open network concept the general is kind of alluding to which is it's a changing landscape your thoughts i know you're passionate about this yeah absolutely you know and i think um you know as general shaw mentioned you know we need to get information out there faster more timely and to the right people um and involving not only just stakeholders in the us but um internationally as well you know and as entrepreneurs um you know we have this very lofty vision or goal uh to change the world and um oftentimes um you know entrepreneurs including myself you know we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can and we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching um you know other folks and in terms of a community i don't know of any formal community out there it's mostly ad hoc and you know these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say have you know was was a student working on a satellite um you know in college and they love that entrepreneurial spirit and so they said well i'm gonna start my own company and so you know a lot of the these ad hoc networks are just from relationships um that are that have been built over the last two decades um you know from from colleagues that you know at the university um i do think formalizing this and creating um kind of a you know clearinghouse to to handle all of this is incredibly important yeah um yeah there's gonna be a lot of entrepreneurial activity no doubt i mean just i mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time so i mean this brings up the question though while we're on this topic um you got the remote work with covid everyone's working remotely we're doing this remote um interview rather than being on stage works changing how people work and engage certainly physical will come back but if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent you know they're all clustered around the bases and there's always been these areas where you're you're a space person you're kind of working there and there's jobs there and if you were cyber you were 10 in other areas over the past decade there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location as you see the intersection of space general start with you you know first of all central coast is a great place to live i know that's where you guys live but you can start to bring together these two cultures sometimes they're you know not the same maybe they're getting better we know they're being integrated so general can you just share your thoughts because this is uh one of those topics that everyone's talking about but no one's actually kind of addressed directly um yeah john i i think so i think i want to answer this by talking about where i think the space force is going because i think if there was ever an opportunity or inflection point in our department of defense to sort of change culture and and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and and really kind of change uh maybe uh some of the ways that the department of defense has does things that are probably archaic space force is an inflection point for that uh general raymond our our chief of space operations has said publicly for a while now he wants the us space force to be the first truly digital service and uh you know what we what we mean by that is you know we want the folks that are in the space force to be the ones that are the first adopters or the early adopters of of technology um to be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge technological developments on space and cyber and and other um other sectors of the of of the of the economy that are technologically focused uh and i think there's some can that can generate some excitement i think and it means that we probably end up recruiting people into the space force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the department of defense looks to and i think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation um into the service that i think is frankly is is really exciting so if you put together everything i mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever and i think there's always been an excitement in them you know from the very beginning in the american psyche about space you start to put all these ingredients together and i think you see where i'm going with this that really changed that cultural uh mindset that you were describing it's an exciting time for sure and again changing the world and this is what you're seeing today people do want to change world they want a modern world that's changing roy look at your thoughts on this i was having an interview a few years back with a tech entrepreneur um techie and we were joking we were just kind of riffing and we and i said everything that's on star trek will be invented and we're almost there actually if you think about it except for the transporter room you got video you got communicators so you know not to bring in the star trek reference with space force this is digital and you start thinking about some of the important trends it's going to be up and down the stack from hardware to software to user experience everything your thoughts and reaction yeah abs absolutely and so you know what we're seeing is um timeline timelines shrinking dramatically um because of the barrier to entry for you know um new entrants and you know even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low right so if you take um previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit it would take years because you would test it on the ground you would verify that it can operate in space in a space environment and then you would go ahead and launch it and you know we're talking tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that now um we've cut that down from years to months when you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time because you're getting valuable data back and so you know we're seeing technology being developed you know for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months um and the whole kind of process um you know that that we're doing as a small business is you know trying to enable that and so allowing these entrepreneurs and small small companies to to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than you know testing on the ground you know this is a great point i think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier the economics and the business model of space is doable i mean you do a mission study you get paid for that you have technology you can get stuff up up quickly and there's a cost structure there and again the alternative was waterfall planning years and millions now the form factors are different now again there may be different payloads involved but you can standardize payloads you got robotic arms all this is all available this brings up the congestion problem this is going to be on the top of mind the generals of course but you got the proliferation okay of these constellation systems you have more and more tech vectors i mean essentially that's malware i mean that's a probe you throw something up in space that could cause some interference maybe a takeover general this is the this is the real elephant in the room the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations so general how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix so i i think the uh you know i guess i'm gonna i'm gonna be a little more optimistic john than i think you pitched that i'm actually excited about these uh new mega constellations in leo um i'm excited about the the growing number of actors that are that are going into space for various reasons and why is that it's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine uh for the nation and for human society so the question is so so i think we want that to happen right when uh um when uh we could go to almost any any other domain in history and and and you know there when when air traffic air air travel started to become much much more commonplace with many kinds of uh actors from from private pilots flying their small planes all the way up to large airliners uh you know there there was a problem with congestion there was a problem about um challenges about uh behavior and are we gonna be able to manage this and yes we did and it was for the great benefit of society i could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things and so this is actually exciting about space we are just going to have to find the ways as a society and it's not just the department of defense it's going to be civil it's going to be international find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain i do think the space force uh will play a role in in providing security in the space environment as we venture further out as as economic opportunities emerge uh wherever they are um in the in the lunar earth lunar system or even within the solar system space force is going to play a role in that but i'm actually really excited about the those possibilities hey by the way i got to say you made me think of this when you talked about star trek and and and space force and our technologies i remember when i was younger watching the the next generation series i thought one of the coolest things because being a musician in my in my spare time i thought one of the coolest things was when um commander riker would walk into his quarters and and say computer play soft jazz and there would just be the computer would just play music you know and this was an age when you know we had we had hard uh um uh media right like how will that that is awesome man i can't wait for the 23rd century when i can do that and where we are today is is so incredible on those lines the things that i can ask alexa or siri to play um well that's the thing everything that's on star trek think about it almost invented i mean you got the computers you got the only thing really is the holograms are starting to come in you got now the transporter room now that's physics we'll work on that right right so there's a there is this uh a balance between physics and imagination but uh we have not exhausted either well um personally everyone that knows me knows i'm a huge star trek fan all the series of course i'm an original purist but at that level but this is about economic incentive as well roland i want to get your thoughts because you know the gloom and doom you got to think about the the bad stuff to make it good if i if i put my glass half full on the table there's economic incentives just like the example of the plane and the air traffic there's there's actors that are more actors that are incented to have a secure system what's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed absolutely so and you know one of the things that we've seen over the years um as you know we build these small satellites is a lot of the technology you know that the general is talking about um you know voice recognition miniaturized chips and sensors um started on the ground and i mean you know you have you know your iphone um that about 15 years ago before the first iphone came out um you know we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors um that we were putting in our satellites back then we didn't know if they were going to work and then um a few years later as these students graduate they go off and they go out to under you know other industries and so um some of the technology that was first kind of put in these cubesats in the early 2000s you know kind of ended up in the first generation iphone smartphones um and so being able to take that technology rapidly you know incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage because um not only are your costs going down um because you know you're mass producing you know these types of terrestrial technologies um but then you can also um you know increase you know revenue and profit um you know by by having you know smaller and cheaper systems general let's talk about that for real quickly it's a good point i want to just shift it into the playbook i mean everyone talks about playbooks for management for tech for startups for success i mean one of the playbooks that's clear from in history is investment in r d around military and or innovation that has a long view spurs innovation commercially i mean just there's a huge many decades of history that shows that hey we got to start thinking about these these challenges and you know next you know it's in an iphone this is history this is not like a one-off and now with space force you get you're driving you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital you know we we riff about star trek which is fun but the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new cool mind-blowing things could you share your thoughts on how you sell that people who write the checks or recruit more talent well so i first i totally agree with your thesis that the that you know national security well could probably go back an awful long way hundreds to thousands of years that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity because um you know i think the the probably the two things that drive drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money uh but only by beating that out are trying to stay alive um and uh and so i don't think that's going to go away and i do think that space force can play a role um as it pursues uh security uh structures you know within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes are going to be at the cutting edge this isn't the first time um i think we can point back to the origins of the internet really started in the department of defense and with a partnership i should add with academia that's how the internet got started that was the creativity in order to to meet some needs there cryptography has its roots in security but we use it uh in in national security but now we use it in for economic reasons and meant and a host of other kinds of reasons and then space itself right i mean we still look back to uh apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to to either begin careers in in technical areas or in space and and so on so i think i think in that same spirit you're absolutely right i guess i'm totally agreeing with your thesis the space force uh will be and a uh will have a positive inspirational influence in that way and we need to to realize that so when we are asking for when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs we need to spread that net very far look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that that can that can work on those when you're on the new frontier you've got to have a team sport it's a team effort you mentioned the internet just anecdotally i'm old enough to remember this because i remember the days that was going on and said the government if the policy decisions that the u.s made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand they didn't try to commercialize it too fast and but there was some policy work that was done that had a direct effect to the innovation versus take it over and next you know it's out of control so i think you know i think this this just a cross-disciplinary skill set becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved and that's one of the big themes of this symposium so it's a great point thank you for sharing that roland your thoughts on this because you know you got policy decisions we all want to run faster we want to be more innovative but you got to have some ops view now mostly ops people want things very tight very buttoned up secure the innovators want to go faster it's the yin and yang that's that's the world we live in how's it all balanced in your mind yeah um you know one of the things um that may not be apparently obvious is that you know the us government and department of um of defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector um you know they're not the traditional venture capitalists but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding um you know and when companies see that the us governments is interested in something businesses will will re-vector um you know to provide that capability and in the i would say the more recent years we've had a huge influx of private equity venture capital um coming into the markets to kind of help augment um you know the government investment and i think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity venture capitalists and the us government is incredibly important because the two sides you know can can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal but then also too on um you know the other side is you know there's that human element um and as general shaw was saying it's like not you know not only do companies you know obviously want to thrive and do really well some companies just want to stay alive um to see their technology kind of you know grow into what they've always dreamed of and you know oftentimes entrepreneurs um are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll they have to you know keep the lights on and so sometimes they'll take investment um from places where they may normally would not have you know from potentially foreign investment that could potentially you know cause issues with you know the you know the us supply chain well my final question is the best i wanted to say for last because i love the idea of human space flight i'd love to be on mars i'm not sure i'll be able to make it someday but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cyber security on expanding human space flight operations i mean general this is your wheelhouse this is urine command putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go because they're not human but humans in space i mean you're starting to see the momentum the discussion uh people are are scratching that itch what's your take on that how do we see making this more possible well i i think we will see we will see uh commercial space tourism uh in the future i'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become but we'll we will see that and um part of uh i think the mission of the space force is going to be probably to again do what we're doing today is have really good awareness of what's going on the domain to uh to to to ensure that that is done safely and i think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety uh in in that uh arena um and uh um it is only a matter of time uh before we see um humans going even beyond the you know nasa has their plan the the artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a a space station there and that's going to be an exploration initiative but it is only a matter of time before we have um private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism but for economic activity and so it'll be really exciting to watch it would be really exciting and space force will be a part of it general roland i want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium i really appreciate it final uh comment i'd love to you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cyber security to space and we'll close it out we'll start with you roland yeah so i think that the biggest thing um i would like to try to get out of this you know from my own personal perspective is um creating that environment that allows um you know the the aerospace supply chain small businesses you know like ourselves be able to meet all the requirements um to protect um and safeguard our data but also um create a way that you know we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation um you know i'm looking forward um to comments and questions um you know from the audience um to really kind of help um you know you know basically drive to that next step general final thoughts the importance of cyber security to space i'll just i'll go back to how i started i think john and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined they're bffs and whoever has my job 50 years from now or 100 years from now i predict they're going to be saying the exact same thing cyber and space are are intertwined for good we will always need the cutting edge cyber security capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a as a society to protect our space capabilities and our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well general john shaw thank you very much roland cleo thank you very much for your great insight thank you to cal poly for putting this together i want to shout out to the team over there we couldn't be in person but we're doing a virtual remote event i'm john furrier with thecube and siliconangle here in silicon valley thanks for watching

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's "theCUBE" covering Space and Cybersecurity Symposium 2020 hosted by Cal Poly. >> I want to welcome to theCUBE's coverage, we're here hosting with Cal Poly an amazing event, space and the intersection of cyber security. This session is Defending Satellite and Space Infrastructure from Cyber Threats. We've got two great guests. We've got Major General John Shaw of combined force space component commander, U.S. space command at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California and Roland Coelho, who's the CEO of Maverick Space Systems. Gentlemen, thank you for spending the time to come on to this session for the Cal Poly Space and Cybersecurity Symposium. Appreciate it. >> Absolutely. >> Guys defending satellites and space infrastructure is the new domain, obviously it's a war-fighting domain. It's also the future of the world. And this is an important topic because we rely on space now for our everyday life and it's becoming more and more critical. Everyone knows how their phones work and GPS, just small examples of all the impacts. I'd like to discuss with this hour, this topic with you guys. So if we can have you guys do an opening statement. General if you can start with your opening statement, we'll take it from there. >> Thanks John and greetings from Vandenberg Air Force Base. We are just down the road from Cal Poly here on the central coast of California, and very proud to be part of this effort and part of the partnership that we have with Cal Poly on a number of fronts. In my job here, I actually have two hats that I wear and it's I think, worth talking briefly about those to set the context for our discussion. You know, we had two major organizational events within our Department of Defense with regard to space last year in 2019. And probably the one that made the most headlines was the standup of the United States Space Force. That happened December 20th, last year, and again momentous, the first new branch in our military since 1947. And it's just over nine months old now, as we're makin' this recording. And already we're seein' a lot of change with regard to how we are approaching organizing, training, and equipping on a service side for space capabilities. And so, with regard to the Space Force, the hat I wear there is Commander of Space Operations Command. That was what was once 14th Air Force, when we were still part of the Air Force here at Vandenberg. And in that role, I'm responsible for the operational capabilities that we bring to the joint warfighter and to the world from a space perspective. Didn't make quite as many headlines, but another major change that happened last year was the reincarnation, I guess I would say, of United States Space Command. And that is a combatant command. It's how our Department of Defense organizes to actually conduct war-fighting operations. Most people are more familiar perhaps with Central Command, CENTCOM or Northern Command, NORTHCOM, or even Strategic Command, STRATCOM. Well, now we have a SPACECOM. We actually had one from 1985 until 2002, and then stood it down in the wake of the 9/11 attacks and a reorganization of Homeland Security. But we've now stood up a separate command again operationally, to conduct joint space operations. And in that organization, I wear a hat as a component commander, and that's the combined force-based component command working with other, all the additional capabilities that other services bring, as well as our allies. The combined in that title means that under certain circumstances, I would lead in an allied effort in space operations. And so it's actually a terrific job to have here on the central coast of California. Both working how we bring space capabilities to the fight on the Space Force side, and then how we actually operate those capabilities in support of joint warfighters around the world and national security interests. So that's the context. Now what also I should mention and you kind of alluded to John at your beginning, we're kind of in a changed situation than we were a number of years ago, in that we now see space as a war-fighting domain. For most of my career, goin' back a little ways, most of my focus in my jobs was making sure I could bring space capabilities to those that needed them. Bringing GPS to that special operations soldier on the ground somewhere in the world, bringing satellite communications for our nuclear command and control, bringing those capabilities for other uses. But I didn't have to worry in most of my career, about actually defending those space capabilities themselves. Well, now we do. We've actually gone to a point where we're are being threatened in space. We now are treating it more like any other domain, normalizing in that regard as a war-fighting domain. And so we're going through some relatively emergent efforts to protect and defend our capabilities in space, to design our capabilities to be defended, and perhaps most of all, to train our people for this new mission set. So it's a very exciting time, and I know we'll get into it, but you can't get very far into talking about all these space capabilities and how we want to protect and defend them and how we're going to continue their ability to deliver to warfighters around the globe, without talking about cyber, because they fit together very closely. So anyway, thanks for the chance to be here today. And I look forward to the discussion. >> General, thank you so much for that opening statement. And I would just say that not only is it historic with the Space Force, it's super exciting because it opens up so much more challenges and opportunities to do more and to do things differently. So I appreciate that statement. Roland in your opening statement. Your job is to put stuff in space, faster, cheaper, smaller, better, your opening statement, please. >> Yes, thank you, John. And yes, to General Shaw's point with the space domain and the need to protect it now is incredibly important. And I hope that we are more of a help than a thorn in your side in terms of building satellites smaller, faster, cheaper. Definitely looking forward to this discussion and figuring out ways where the entire space domain can work together, from industry to U.S. government, even to the academic environment as well. So first, I would like to say, and preface this by saying, I am not a cybersecurity expert. We build satellites and we launch them into orbit, but we are by no means cybersecurity experts. And that's why we like to partner with organizations like the California Cybersecurity Institute because they help us navigate these requirements. So I'm the CEO of Maverick Space Systems. We are a small aerospace business in San Luis Obispo, California. And we provide small satellite hardware and service solutions to a wide range of customers. All the way from the academic environment to the U.S. government and everything in between. We support customers through an entire program life cycle, from mission architecture and formulation, all the way to getting these customer satellites in orbit. And so what we try to do is provide hardware and services that basically make it easier for customers to get their satellites into orbit and to operate. So whether it be reducing mass or volume, creating greater launch opportunities, or providing the infrastructure and the technology to help those innovations mature in orbit, that's what we do. Our team has experience over the last 20 years, working with small satellites. And I'm definitely fortunate to be part of the team that invented the CubeSat standard by Cal Poly and Stanford back in 2000. And so, we are in VandenBerg's backyard. We came from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo and our hearts are fond of this area, and working with the local community. A lot of that success that we have had is directly attributable to the experiences that we learned as students, working on satellite programs from our professors and mentors. And that's all thanks to Cal Poly. So just wanted to tell a quick story. So back in 2000, just imagine a small group of undergraduate students, myself included, with the daunting task of launching multiple satellites from five different countries on a Russian launch vehicle. Many of us were only 18 or 19, not even at the legal age to drink yet, but as essentially teenagers we were managing million-dollar budgets. And we were coordinating groups from around the world. And we knew what we needed to accomplish, yet we didn't really know what we were doing when we first started. The university was extremely supportive and that's the Cal Poly learn-by-doing philosophy. I remember the first time we had a meeting with our university chief legal counsel, and we were discussing the need to register with the State Department for ITAR. Nobody really knew what ITAR was back then. And discussing this with the chief legal counsel, she was asking, "What is ITAR?" And we essentially had to explain, this is, launching satellites is part of the U.S. munitions list. And essentially we had a similar situation exporting munitions. We are in similar categories as weapons. And so, after that initial shock, everybody jumped in both feet forward, the university, our head legal counsel, professors, mentors, and the students knew we needed to tackle this problem because the need was there to launch these small satellites. And the reason this is important to capture the entire spectrum of users of the community, is that the technology and the innovation of the small satellite industry occurs at all levels, so we have academia, commercial, national governments. We even have high schools and middle schools getting involved and building satellite hardware. And the thing is the importance of cybersecurity is incredibly important because it touches all of these programs and it touches people at a very young age. And so, we hope to have a conversation today to figure out how do we create an environment where we allow these programs to thrive, but we also protect and keep their data safe as well. >> Thank you very much Roland. Appreciate that a story too as well. Thanks for your opening statement. Gentlemen, I mean I love this topic because defending the assets in space is obvious, if you look at it. But there's a bigger picture going on in our world right now. And general, you kind of pointed out the historic nature of Space Force and how it's changing already, operationally, training, skills, tools, all that stuff is evolving. You know in the tech world that I live in, change the world is a topic they use, gets thrown around a lot, you can change the world. A lot of young people, and we have other panels on this where we're talkin' about how to motivate young people, changing the world is what it's all about technology, for the better. Evolution is just an extension of another domain. In this case, space is just an extension of other domains, similar things are happening, but it's different. There's huge opportunity to change the world, so it's faster. There's an expanded commercial landscape out there. Certainly government space systems are moving and changing. How do we address the importance of cybersecurity in space? General, we'll start with you because this is real, it's exciting. If you're a young person, there's touch points of things to jump into, tech, building hardware, to changing laws, and everything in between is an opportunity, and it's exciting. And it is truly a chance to change the world. How does the commercial government space systems teams, address the importance of cybersecurity? >> So, John, I think it starts with the realization that as I like to say, that cyber and space are BFFs. There's nothing that we do on the cutting edge of space that isn't heavily reliant on the cutting edge of cyber. And frankly, there's probably nothing on the cutting edge of cyber that doesn't have a space application. And when you realize that and you see how closely those are intertwined as we need to move forward at speed, it becomes fundamental to answering your question. Let me give a couple examples. One of the biggest challenges I have on a daily basis is understanding what's going on in the space domain. Those on the surface of the planet talk about tyranny of distance across the oceans or across large land masses. And I talk about the tyranny of volume. And right now, we're looking out as far as the lunar sphere. There's activity that's extending out there. We expect NASA to be conducting perhaps human operations in the lunar environment in the next few years. So it extends out that far. When you do the math that's a huge volume. How do you do that? How do you understand what's happening in real time within that volume? It is a big data problem by the very definition of that kind of effort and that kind of challenge. And to do it successfully in the years ahead, it's going to require many, many sensors and the fusion of data of all kinds, to present a picture and then analytics and predictive analytics that are going to deliver an idea of what's going on in the space arena. And that's just if people are not up to mischief. Once you have threats introduced into that environment, it is even more challenging. So I'd say it's a big data problem that we'll enjoy tackling in the years ahead. Now, a second example is, if we had to take a vote of what were the most amazing robots that have ever been designed by humans, I think that spacecraft would have to be up there on the list. Whether it's the NASA spacecraft that explore other planets, or GPS satellites that amazingly provide a wonderful service to the entire globe and beyond. They are amazing technological machines. That's not going to stop. I mean, all the work that Roland talked about, even that we're doin' at the kind of the microsat level is putting cutting-edge technology into small a package as you can to get some sort of capability out of that. As we expand our activities further and further into space for national security purposes, or for exploration or commercial or civil, the cutting-edge technologies of artificial intelligence and machine-to-machine engagements and machine learning are going to be part of that design work moving forward. And then there's the threat piece. As we operate these capabilities, as these constellations grow, that's going to be done via networks. And as I've already pointed out space is a war-fighting domain. That means those networks will come under attack. We expect that they will and that may happen early on in a conflict. It may happen during peace time in the same way that we see cyber attacks all the time, everywhere in many sectors of activity. And so by painting that picture, we start to see how it's intertwined at the very, very most basic level, the cutting edge of cyber and cutting edge of space. With that then comes the need to, any cutting edge cybersecurity capability that we have is naturally going to be needed as we develop space capabilities. And we're going to have to bake that in from the very beginning. We haven't done that in the past as well as we should, but moving forward from this point on, it will be an essential ingredient that we work into all of our capability. >> Roland, we're talkin' about now, critical infrastructure. We're talkin' about new capabilities being addressed really fast. So, it's kind of chaotic now there's threats. So it's not as easy as just having capabilities, 'cause you've got to deal with the threats the general just pointed out. But now you've got critical infrastructure, which then will enable other things down the line. How do you protect it? How do we address this? How do you see this being addressed from a security standpoint? Because malware, these techniques can be mapped in, extended into space and takeovers, wartime, peace time, these things are all going to be under threat. That's pretty well understood, and I think people kind of get that. How do we address it? What's your take? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I couldn't agree more with General Shaw, with cybersecurity and space being so intertwined. And, I think with fast and rapid innovation comes the opportunity for threats, especially if you have bad actors that want to cause harm. And so, as a technology innovator and you're pushing the bounds, you kind of have a common goal of doing the best you can, and pushing the technology bounds, making it smaller, faster, cheaper. But a lot of times what entrepreneurs and small businesses and supply chains are doing, and don't realize it, is a lot of these components are dual use. I mean, you could have a very benign commercial application, but then a small modification to it, can turn it into a military application. And if you do have these bad actors, they can exploit that. And so, I think that the big thing is creating a organization that is non-biased, that just wants to kind of level the playing field for everybody to create a set standard for cybersecurity in space. I think one group that would be perfect for that is CCI. They understand both the cybersecurity side of things, and they also have at Cal Poly the small satellite group. And just having kind of a clearing house or an agency where can provide information that is free, you don't need a membership for. And to be able to kind of collect that, but also reach out to the entire value chain for a mission, and making them aware of what potential capabilities are and then how it might be potentially used as a weapon. And keeping them informed, because I think the vast majority of people in the space industry just want to do the right thing. And so, how do we get that information free flowing to the U.S. government so that they can take that information, create assessments, and be able to, not necessarily stop threats from occurring presently, but identify them long before that they would ever even happen. Yeah, that's- >> General, I want to follow up on that real quick before we move to the next top track. Critical infrastructure you mentioned, across the oceans long distance, volume. When you look at the physical world, you had power grids here in the United States, you had geography, you had perimeters, the notion of a perimeter and a moat, and then you had digital comes in. Then you have, we saw software open up, and essentially take down this idea of a perimeter, and from a defense standpoint, and everything changed. And we have to fortify those critical assets in the U.S. Space increases the same problem statement significantly, because you can't just have a perimeter, you can't have a moat, it's open, it's everywhere. Like what digital's done, and that's why we've seen a surge of cyber in the past two decades, attacks with software. So, this isn't going to go away. You need the critical infrastructure, you're putting it up there, you're formulating it, and you got to protect it. How do you view that? Because it's going to be an ongoing problem statement. What's the current thinking? >> Yeah, I think my sense is that a mindset that you can build a firewall, or a defense, or some other system that isn't dynamic in its own right, is probably not headed in the right direction. I think cybersecurity in the future, whether it's for space systems, or for other critical infrastructure is going to be a dynamic fight that happens at a machine-to-machine speed and dynamic. I don't think that it's too far off where we will have machines writing their own code in real time to fight off attacks that are coming at them. And by the way, the offense will probably be doing the same kind of thing. And so, I guess I would not want to think that the answer is something that you just build it and you leave it alone and it's good enough. It's probably going to be a constantly-evolving capability, constantly reacting to new threats and staying ahead of those threats. >> That's the kind of use case, you know as you were, kind of anecdotal example is the exciting new software opportunities for computer science majors. I mean, I tell my young kids and everyone, man it's more exciting now. I wish I was 18 again, it's so exciting with AI. Roland, I want to get your thoughts. We were joking on another panel with the DoD around space and the importance of it obviously, and we're going to have that here. And then we had a joke. It's like, oh software's defined everything. Software's everything, AI. And I said, "Well here in the United States, companies had data centers and then they went to the cloud." And then he said, "You can do break, fix, it's hard to do break, fix in space. You can't just send a tech up." I get that today, but soon maybe robotics. The general mentions robotics technologies, in referencing some of the accomplishments. Fixing things is almost impossible in space. But maybe form factors might get better. Certainly software will play a role. What's your thoughts on that landscape? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, for software in orbit, there's a push for software-defined radios to basically go from hardware to software. And that's a critical link. If you can infiltrate that and a small satellite has propulsion on board, you could take control of that satellite and cause a lot of havoc. And so, creating standards and that kind of initial threshold of security, for let's say these radios, or communications and making that available to the entire supply chain, to the satellite builders, and operators is incredibly key. And that's again, one of the initiatives that CCI is tackling right now as well. >> General, I want to get your thoughts on best practices around cybersecurity, state-of-the-art today, and then some guiding principles, and kind of how the, if you shoot the trajectory forward, what might happen around supply chain? There's been many stories where, we outsource the chips and there's a little chip sittin' in a thing and it's built by someone else in China, and the software is written from someone in Europe, and the United States assembles it, it gets shipped and it's corrupt, and it has some cyber, I'm making it up, I'm oversimplifying the statement. But this is what when you have space systems that involve intellectual property from multiple partners, whether it's from software to creation and then deployment. You got supply chain tiers. What are some of best practices that you see involving, that don't stunt the innovation, but continues to innovate, but people can operate safely. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so on supply chain, I think the symposium here is going to get to hear from General JT Thompson from space and missile system center down in Los Angeles, and he's just down the road from us there on the coast. And his team is the one that we look to to really focus on, as he fires and develops to again bake in cybersecurity from the beginning and knowing where the components are coming from, and properly assessing those as you put together your space systems, is a key piece of what his team is focused on. So I expect, we'll hear him talk about that. When it talks to, I think, so you asked the question a little more deeply about how do the best practices in terms of how we now develop moving forward. Well, another way that we don't do it right, is if we take a long time to build something and then General JT Thompson's folks take a while to build something, and then they hand it over to me, and my team operate and then they go hands free. And then that's what I have for years to operate until the next thing comes along. That's a little old school. What we're going to have to do moving forward with our space capabilities, and with the cyber piece baked in is continually developing new capability sets as we go. We actually have partnership between General Thompson's team and mine here at Vandenberg on our ops floor, or our combined space operation center, that are actually working in real time together, better tools that we can use to understand what's going on in the space environment to better command and control our capabilities anywhere from military satellite communications, to space domain awareness, sensors, and such. And we're developing those capabilities in real time. And with the security pieces. So DevSecOps is we're practicing that in real time. I think that is probably the standard today that we're trying to live up to as we continue to evolve. But it has to be done again, in close partnership all the time. It's not a sequential, industrial-age process. While I'm on the subject of partnerships. So, General Thompson's team and mine have good partnerships. It's partnerships across the board are going to be another way that we are successful. And that it means with academia and some of the relationships that we have here with Cal Poly. It's with the commercial sector in ways that we haven't done before. The old style business was to work with just a few large companies that had a lot of space experience. Well, we need a lot of kinds of different experience and technologies now in order to really field good space capabilities. And I expect we'll see more and more non-traditional companies being part of, and organizations, being part of that partnership that will work goin' forward. I mentioned at the beginning that allies are important to us. So everything that Roland and I have been talking about I think you have to extrapolate out to allied partnerships. It doesn't help me as a combined force component commander, which is again, one of my jobs. It doesn't help me if the United States capabilities are cybersecure, but I'm tryin' to integrate them with capabilities from an ally that are not cybersecure. So that partnership has to be dynamic and continually evolving together. So again, close partnering, continually developing together from the acquisition to the operational sectors, with as many different sectors of our economy as possible, are the ingredients to success. >> General, I'd love to just follow up real quick. I was having just a quick reminder for a conversation I had with last year with General Keith Alexander, who does a lot of cybersecurity work, and he was talking about the need to share faster. And the new school is you got to share faster to get the data, you mentioned observability earlier, you need to see what everything's out there. He's a real passionate person around getting the data, getting it fast and having trusted partners. So that's not, it's kind of evolving as, I mean, sharing's a well known practice, but with cyber it's sensitive data potentially. So there's a trust relationship. There's now a new ecosystem. That's new for government. How do you view all that and your thoughts on that trend of the sharing piece of it on cyber? >> So, I don't know if it's necessarily new, but it's at a scale that we've never seen before. And by the way, it's vastly more complicated and complex when you overlay from a national security perspective, classification of data and information at various levels. And then that is again complicated by the fact you have different sharing relationships with different actors, whether it's commercial, academic, or allies. So it gets very, very complex web very quickly. So that's part of the challenge we're workin' through. How can we effectively share information at multiple classification levels with multiple partners in an optimal fashion? It is certainly not optimal today. It's very difficult, even with maybe one industry partner for me to be able to talk about data at an unclassified level, and then various other levels of classification to have the traditional networks in place to do that. I could see a solution in the future where our cybersecurity is good enough that maybe I only really need one network and the information that is allowed to flow to the players within the right security environment to make that all happen as quickly as possible. So you've actually, John you've hit on yet another big challenge that we have, is evolving our networks to properly share, with the right people, at the right clearance levels at the speed of war, which is what we're going to need. >> Yeah, and I wanted to call that out because this is an opportunity, again, this discussion here at Cal Poly and around the world is for new capabilities and new people to solve the problems. It's again, it's super exciting if you're geeking out on this. If you have a tech degree or you're interested in changin' the world, there's so many new things that could be applied right now. Roland, I want to get your thoughts on this, because one of the things in the tech trends we're seeing, and this is a massive shift, all the theaters of the tech industry are changing rapidly at the same time. And it affects policy law, but also deep tech. The startup communities are super important in all this too. We can't forget them. Obviously, the big trusted players that are partnering certainly on these initiatives, but your story about being in the dorm room. Now you've got the boardroom and now you got everything in between. You have startups out there that want to and can contribute. You know, what's an ITAR? I mean, I got all these acronym certifications. Is there a community motion to bring startups in, in a safe way, but also give them ability to contribute? Because you look at open source, that proved everyone wrong on software. That's happening now with this now open network concept, the general was kind of alluding to. Which is, it's a changing landscape. Your thoughts, I know you're passionate about this. >> Yeah, absolutely. And I think as General Shaw mentioned, we need to get information out there faster, more timely and to the right people, and involving not only just stakeholders in the U.S., but internationally as well. And as entrepreneurs, we have this very lofty vision or goal to change the world. And oftentimes, entrepreneurs, including myself, we put our heads down and we just run as fast as we can. And we don't necessarily always kind of take a breath and take a step back and kind of look at what we're doing and how it's touching other folks. And in terms of a community, I don't know of any formal community out there, it's mostly ad hoc. And, these ad hoc communities are folks who let's say was a student working on a satellite in college. And they loved that entrepreneurial spirit. And so they said, "Well, I'm going to start my own company." And so, a lot of these ad hoc networks are just from relationships that have been built over the last two decades from colleagues at the university. I do think formalizing this and creating kind of a clearing house to handle all of this is incredibly important. >> And there's going to be a lot of entrepreneurial activity, no doubt, I mean there's too many things to work on and not enough time. I mean this brings up the question that I'm going to, while we're on this topic, you got the remote work with COVID, everyone's workin' remotely, we're doin' this remote interview rather than being on stage. Work's changing, how people work and engage. Certainly physical will come back. But if you looked at historically the space industry and the talent, they're all clustered around the bases. And there's always been these areas where you're a space person. You kind of work in there and the job's there. And if you were cyber, you were generally in other areas. Over the past decade, there's been a cross-pollination of talent and location. As you see the intersection of space, general we'll start with you, first of all, central coast is a great place to live. I know that's where you guys live. But you can start to bring together these two cultures. Sometimes they're not the same. Maybe they're getting better. We know they're being integrated. So general, can you just share your thoughts because this is one of those topics that everyone's talkin' about, but no one's actually kind of addressed directly. >> Yeah, John, I think so. I think I want to answer this by talkin' about where I think the Space Force is going. Because I think if there was ever an opportunity or an inflection point in our Department of Defense to sort of change culture and try to bring in non-traditional kinds of thinking and really kind of change maybe some of the ways that the Department of Defense does things that are probably archaic, Space Force is an inflection point for that. General Raymond, our Chief of Space Operations, has said publicly for awhile now, he wants the U.S. Space Force to be the first truly digital service. And what we mean by that is we want the folks that are in the Space Force to be the ones that are the first adopters, the early adopters of technology. To be the ones most fluent in the cutting edge, technologic developments on space and cyber and other sectors of the economy that are technologically focused. And I think there's some, that can generate some excitement, I think. And it means that we'll probably ended up recruiting people into the Space Force that are not from the traditional recruiting areas that the rest of the Department of Defense looks to. And I think it allows us to bring in a diversity of thought and diversity of perspective and a new kind of motivation into the service, that I think is frankly really exciting. So if you put together everything I mentioned about how space and cyber are going to be best friends forever. And I think there's always been an excitement from the very beginning in the American psyche about space. You start to put all these ingredients together, and I think you see where I'm goin' with this. That this is a chance to really change that cultural mindset that you were describing. >> It's an exciting time for sure. And again, changing the world. And this is what you're seeing today. People do want to change the world. They want a modern world that's changing. Roland, I'll get your thoughts on this. I was having an interview a few years back with a technology entrepreneur, a techie, and we were joking, we were just kind of riffing. And I said, "Everything that's on "Star Trek" will be invented." And we're almost there actually, if you think about it, except for the transporter room. You got video, you got communicators. So, not to bring in the "Star Trek" reference with Space Force, this is digital. And you start thinking about some of the important trends, it's going to be up and down the stack, from hardware to software, to user experience, everything. Your thoughts and reaction. >> Yeah, absolutely. And so, what we're seeing is timelines shrinking dramatically because of the barrier to entry for new entrants and even your existing aerospace companies is incredibly low, right? So if you take previously where you had a technology on the ground and you wanted it in orbit, it would take years. Because you would test it on the ground. You would verify that it can operate in a space environment. And then you would go ahead and launch it. And we're talking tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars to do that. Now, we've cut that down from years to months. When you have a prototype on the ground and you want to get it launched, you don't necessarily care if it fails on orbit the first time, because you're getting valuable data back. And so, we're seeing technology being developed for the first time on the ground and in orbit in a matter of a few months. And the whole kind of process that we're doing as a small business is trying to enable that. And so, allowing these entrepreneurs and small companies to get their technology in orbit at a price that is sometimes even cheaper than testing on the ground. >> You know this is a great point. I think this is really an important point to call out because we mentioned partnerships earlier, the economics and the business model of space is doable. I mean, you do a mission study. You get paid for that. You have technology that you get stuff up quickly, and there's a cost structure there. And again, the alternative was waterfall planning, years and millions. Now the form factors are doing, now, again, there may be different payloads involved, but you can standardize payloads. You've got robotic arms. This is all available. This brings up the congestion problem. This is going to be on the top of mind of the generals of course, but you've got the proliferation of these constellation systems. You're going to have more and more tech vectors. I mean, essentially that's malware. I mean, that's a probe. You throw something up in space that could cause some interference. Maybe a takeover. General, this is the real elephant in the room, the threat matrix from new stuff and new configurations. So general, how does the proliferation of constellation systems change the threat matrix? >> So I think the, you know I guess I'm going to be a little more optimistic John than I think you pitched that. I'm actually excited about these new mega constellations in LEO. I'm excited about the growing number of actors that are going into space for various reasons. And why is that? It's because we're starting to realize a new economic engine for the nation and for human society. So the question is, so I think we want that to happen. When we could go to almost any other domain in history and when air travel started to become much, much more commonplace with many kinds of actors from private pilots flying their small planes, all the way up to large airliners, there was a problem with congestion. There was a problem about, challenges about behavior, and are we going to be able to manage this? And yes we did. And it was for the great benefit of society. I could probably look to the maritime domain for similar kinds of things. And so this is actually exciting about space. We are just going to have to find the ways as a society, and it's not just the Department of Defense, it's going to be civil, it's going to be international, find the mechanisms to encourage this continued investment in the space domain. I do think that Space Force will play a role in providing security in the space environment, as we venture further out, as economic opportunities emerge, wherever they are in the lunar, Earth, lunar system, or even within the solar system. Space Force is going to play a role in that. But I'm actually really excited about those possibilities. Hey, by the way, I got to say, you made me think of this when you talked about "Star Trek" and Space Force and our technologies, I remember when I was younger watchin' the Next Generation series. I thought one of the coolest things, 'cause bein' a musician in my spare time, I thought one of the coolest things was when Commander Riker would walk into his quarters and say, "Computer play soft jazz." And there would just be, the computer would just play music. And this was an age when we had hard media. Like how will that, that is awesome. Man, I can't wait for the 23rd century when I can do that. And where we are today is so incredible on those lines. The things that I can ask Alexa or Siri to play. >> Well that's the thing, everything that's on "Star Trek," think about it, it's almost invented. I mean, you got the computers, you got, the only thing really is, holograms are startin' to come in, you got, now the transporter room. Now that's physics. We'll work on that. >> So there is this balance between physics and imagination, but we have not exhausted either. >> Well, firstly, everyone that knows me knows I'm a huge "Star Trek" fan, all the series. Of course, I'm an original purist, but at that level. But this is about economic incentive as well. Roland, I want to get your thoughts, 'cause the gloom and doom, we got to think about the bad stuff to make it good. If I put my glass half full on the table, this economic incentives, just like the example of the plane and the air traffic. There's more actors that are incented to have a secure system. What's your thoughts to general's comments around the optimism and the potential threat matrix that needs to be managed. >> Absolutely, so one of the things that we've seen over the years, as we build these small satellites is a lot of that technology that the General's talking about, voice recognition, miniaturized chips, and sensors, started on the ground. And I mean, you have your iPhone, that, about 15 years ago before the first iPhone came out, we were building small satellites in the lab and we were looking at cutting-edge, state-of-the-art magnetometers and sensors that we were putting in our satellites back then. We didn't know if they were going to work. And then a few years later, as these students graduate, they go off and they go out to other industries. And so, some of the technology that was first kind of put in these CubeSats in the early 2000s, kind of ended up in the first generation iPhone, smartphones. And so being able to take that technology, rapidly incorporate that into space and vice versa gives you an incredible economic advantage. Because not only are your costs going down because you're mass producing these types of terrestrial technologies, but then you can also increase revenue and profit by having smaller and cheaper systems. >> General, let's talk about that real quickly, that's a good point, I want to just shift it into the playbook. I mean, everyone talks about playbooks for management, for tech, for startups, for success. I mean, one of the playbooks that's clear from your history is investment in R&D around military and/or innovation that has a long view, spurs innovation, commercially. I mean, just there's a huge, many decades of history that shows that, hey we got to start thinking about these challenges. And next thing you know it's in an iPhone. This is history, this is not like a one off. And now with Space Force you're driving the main engine of innovation to be all digital. You know, we riff about "Star Trek" which is fun, the reality is you're going to be on the front lines of some really new, cool, mind-blowing things. Could you share your thoughts on how you sell that to the people who write the checks or recruit more talent? >> First, I totally agree with your thesis that national security, well, could probably go back an awful long way, hundreds to thousands of years, that security matters tend to drive an awful lot of innovation and creativity. You know I think probably the two things that drive people the most are probably an opportunity to make money, but beating that out are trying to stay alive. And so, I don't think that's going to go away. And I do think that Space Force can play a role as it pursues security structures, within the space domain to further encourage economic investment and to protect our space capabilities for national security purposes, are going to be at the cutting edge. This isn't the first time. I think we can point back to the origins of the internet, really started in the Department of Defense, with a partnership I should add, with academia. That's how the internet got started. That was the creativity in order to meet some needs there. Cryptography has its roots in security, in national security, but now we use it for economic reasons and a host of other kinds of reasons. And then space itself, I mean, we still look back to Apollo era as an inspiration for so many things that inspired people to either begin careers in technical areas or in space and so on. So I think in that same spirit, you're absolutely right. I guess I'm totally agreeing with your thesis. The Space Force will have a positive, inspirational influence in that way. And we need to realize that. So when we are asking for, when we're looking for how we need to meet capability needs, we need to spread that net very far, look for the most creative solutions and partner early and often with those that can work on those. >> When you're on the new frontier, you got to have a team sport, it's a team effort. And you mentioned the internet, just anecdotally I'm old enough to remember this 'cause I remember the days that it was goin' on, is that the policy decisions that the U.S. made at that time was to let it go a little bit invisible hand. They didn't try to commercialize it too fast. But there was some policy work that was done, that had a direct effect to the innovation. Versus take it over, and the next thing you know it's out of control. So I think there's this cross-disciplinary skillset becomes a big thing where you need to have more people involved. And that's one of the big themes of this symposium. So it's a great point. Thank you for sharing that. Roland, your thoughts on this because you got policy decisions. We all want to run faster. We want to be more innovative, but you got to have some ops view. Now, most of the ops view people want things very tight, very buttoned up, secure. The innovators want to go faster. It's the ying and yang. That's the world we live in. How's it all balance in your mind? >> Yeah, one of the things that may not be apparently obvious is that the U.S. government and Department of Defense is one of the biggest investors in technology in the aerospace sector. They're not the traditional venture capitalists, but they're the ones that are driving technology innovation because there's funding. And when companies see that the U.S. government is interested in something, businesses will revector to provide that capability. And, I would say the more recent years, we've had a huge influx of private equity, venture capital coming into the markets to kind of help augment the government investment. And I think having a good partnership and a relationship with these private equity, venture capitalists and the U.S. government is incredibly important because the two sides can help collaborate and kind of see a common goal. But then also too, on the other side there's that human element. And as General Shaw was saying, not only do companies obviously want to thrive and do really well, some companies just want to stay alive to see their technology kind of grow into what they've always dreamed of. And oftentimes entrepreneurs are put in a very difficult position because they have to make payroll, they have to keep the lights on. And so, sometimes they'll take investment from places where they may normally would not have, from potentially foreign investment that could potentially cause issues with the U.S. supply chain. >> Well, my final question is the best I wanted to save for last, because I love the idea of human space flight. I'd love to be on Mars. I'm not sure I'm able to make it someday, but how do you guys see the possible impacts of cybersecurity on expanding human space flight operations? I mean, general, this is your wheelhouse. This is your in command, putting humans in space and certainly robots will be there because they're easy to go 'cause they're not human. But humans in space. I mean, you startin' to see the momentum, the discussion, people are scratchin' that itch. What's your take on that? How do we see makin' this more possible? >> Well, I think we will see commercial space tourism in the future. I'm not sure how wide and large a scale it will become, but we will see that. And part of the, I think the mission of the Space Force is going to be probably to again, do what we're doin' today is have really good awareness of what's going on in the domain to ensure that that is done safely. And I think a lot of what we do today will end up in civil organizations to do space traffic management and safety in that arena. And, it is only a matter of time before we see humans going, even beyond the, NASA has their plan, the Artemis program to get back to the moon and the gateway initiative to establish a space station there. And that's going to be a NASA exploration initiative. But it is only a matter of time before we have private citizens or private corporations putting people in space and not only for tourism, but for economic activity. And so it'll be really exciting to watch. It'll be really exciting and Space Force will be a part of it. >> General, Roland, I want to thank you for your valuable time to come on this symposium. Really appreciate it. Final comment, I'd love you to spend a minute to share your personal thoughts on the importance of cybersecurity to space and we'll close it out. We'll start with you Roland. >> Yeah, so I think the biggest thing I would like to try to get out of this from my own personal perspective is creating that environment that allows the aerospace supply chain, small businesses like ourselves, be able to meet all the requirements to protect and safeguard our data, but also create a way that we can still thrive and it won't stifle innovation. I'm looking forward to comments and questions, from the audience to really kind of help, basically drive to that next step. >> General final thoughts, the importance of cybersecurity to space. >> I'll go back to how I started I think John and say that space and cyber are forever intertwined, they're BFFs. And whoever has my job 50 years from now, or a hundred years from now, I predict they're going to be sayin' the exact same thing. Cyber and space are intertwined for good. We will always need the cutting edge, cybersecurity capabilities that we develop as a nation or as a society to protect our space capabilities. And our cyber capabilities are going to need space capabilities in the future as well. >> General John Shaw, thank you very much. Roland Coelho, thank you very much for your great insight. Thank you to Cal Poly for puttin' this together. I want to shout out to the team over there. We couldn't be in-person, but we're doing a virtual remote event. I'm John Furrier with "theCUBE" and SiliconANGLE here in Silicon Valley, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of data automated and event. Siri's brought to you by Iot. Tahoe. Okay, we're back with Adam Worthington. Who's the CTO and co founder of Ethos Adam. Good to see you. How are things across the pond? >>Thank you. I'm sure that a little bit on your side. >>Okay, so let's let's set it up. Tell us about yourself. What your role is a CTO and give us the low down on those. >>Sure, So we get automatic. As you said CTO and co founder of A were pretty young company ourselves that we're in our sixth year and we specialize in emerging disruptive technologies within the infrastructure Data center kind of cloud space. And my role is the technical lead. So it's kind of my job to be an expert in all of the technologies that we work with, which can be a bit of a challenge if you have a huge portfolio, is one of the reasons we deliberately focusing on on also kind of a validation and evaluation of new technologies. Yeah, >>so you guys are really technology experts, data experts and probably also expert in process and delivering customer outcomes. Right? >>That's a great word there, Dave Outcomes. That's a lot of what I like to speak to customers about on. Sometimes I get that gets lost, particularly with within highly technical field. I like the virtualization guy or a network like very quickly start talking about the nuts and bolts of technology on I'm a techie. I'm absolutely a nerd, like the best tech guitar but fundamentally reporting in technologies to meet. This is outcomes to solve business problems on on to enable a better way. >>Love it. We love tech, too, but really, it's all about the customer. So let's talk about smart data. You know, when you when you throw in terms like this is it kind of Canfield Buzz Wordy. But let's let's get into the meat on it. What does that mean to you? One of the critical aspects of so called smart data >>cool probably hoped to step back a little bit and set the scene a little bit more in in terms of kind of where I came from, the types of problems that I'm really an infrastructure solution architect trace on what I kind of benefits. We organically But over time my personal framework, I focused on three core design principles whatever it was I was designing. And obviously they need different things. Depending on what technology area is that we're working with. That's pretty good on. And what I realized that we realized we started with those principles could be it could be used more broadly in the the absolute best of breed of technologies. And those really disrupt, uh, significantly improve upon the status quo in one or more of those three areas. Ideally or more simple, more on if we look at the data of the challenges that organizations, enterprises organizations have criticized around data and smart fail over the best way. Maybe it's good to reflect on what the opposite end of the story is kind of why data is often quite dumb. The traditional approaches. We have limited visibility into the data that we're up to the story using within our infrastructure as what we kind of ended up with over time, through no fault of the organizations that have happened silos, everyone silos of expertise. So whether that be, that's going out. Specialized teams, socialization, networking. They have been, for example, silos of infrastructure, which trade state of fragmentation copies of data in different areas of the infrastructure on copies of replication in that data set or reputation in terms of application environments. I think that that's kind of what we tend to focus on, what it's becoming, um, resonating with more organizations. There's a survey that one of the vendors that we work with actually are launched vendor 5.5 years ago, a medical be gone. They work with any company called Phantom Born a first of a kind of global market, 900 respondents, all different vectors, a little different countries, the U. S. And Germany. And what they found was shocking. It was a recent survey so focused on secondary data, but the lessons learned the information taken out a survey applies right across the gamut of infrastructure data organizations. Just some stats just pull out the five minutes 85% off the organization surveyed store between two and five stores data in 3 to 5 clouds. 63% of organizations have between four and 16 coffees of exactly the same data. Nearly nine out of 10 respondents believe that organizations, secondly, data's fragmented across silos are touched on is would become nearly impossible to manage over the long term on. And 91% of the vast majority of organizations leadership were concerned about the level of visibility their teams. So they're the kind of areas that a smart approach to data will directly address. So reducing silos that comes from simplifying so moving away from complexity of infrastructure, reducing the amount of copies of data that we have across the infrastructure and reducing the amount of application environment. I mean, Harry, so smarter we get with data is in my eyes. Anyway, the further we moved away from this, >>there was a lot in that answer, but I want to kind of summarize it if I can talk. You started with simplicity, flexibility, efficiency. Of course, that's what customers want. And then I was gonna ask you about you know, what challenges customers are facing, and I think you laid it out here. But I want to I want to pick on a couple of some of the data that you talked about the public cloud treat that adds complexity and diversity in skill requirements. The copies of data is so true, like data is just like like if rebels, If you Star Trek franchise, they just expand and replicate. So that's an expense, and it adds complexity. Silo data means you spend a lot of time trying to figure out who's got the right data. What's the real truth with a lot of manual processes involved in the visibility is obviously critical. So those are the problems on. But course you talked about how you address those, But But how does it work? I mean, how do you know what's what's involved in injecting smarts into your data? Lifecycle >>that plane, Think about it. So insurance of the infrastructure and say they were very good reasons why customers are in situations they have been in this situation because of the limits are traditional prices. So you look at something is fundamental. So a great example, um on applications that utilize the biggest fundamentally back ups are now often what that typically required is completely separate infrastructure to everything else. But when we're talking about the data set, so what would be a perfect is if we could back up data on use it for other things, and that's where a, uh, a technology provider like So So although it better technology is incredibly simple, it's also incredibly powerful and allows identification, consolidation. And then, if you look at just getting insight out of that fundamentally tradition approaches to infrastructure, they're put in a point of putting a requirement. And therefore it wasn't really incumbent exposed any information out of the data that's stored within the division, which makes it really tricky to do anything else outside of the application. That that's where something like Iot how come in in terms of abstracting away the complexity more directly, I So these are the kind of the area. So I think one of my I did not ready, but generally one of my favorite quotes from the French philosopher and a mathematician, Blaise Pascal, he says, I get this right. I have written a short letter, but I didn't have time. But Israel. I love that quite for lots of reasons, that computation of what we're talking about, it is actually really complicated to develop a technology capability to make things simple, more directly meet the needs of the business. So you provide self service capabilities that they just need to stop driving. I mean making data on infrastructure makes sense for the business users. Music. It's My belief is that the technology shouldn't mean that the users of the technology has to be a technology expert what we really want them to be. And they should be a business experts in any technology that you should enable on demand for the types of technologies to get me excited. They're not necessarily from a ftt complicated technology perspective, but those are really focused on impressive the capability. >>Yeah. Okay, so you talked about back up, We're gonna hear from Kohi City a little bit later and beyond backup data protection, Data Management, That insight piece you talked earlier about visibility, and that's what the Iot Tahoe's bringing table with its software. So that's another component of the tech stack, if you will, Um, and then you talk about simplicity. We're gonna hear from pure storage. They're all about simple storage. They call it the modern data experience. I think so. So those are some of the aspects and your job. Correct me. If I'm wrong is to kind of put that all together in a solution and then help the customer realize that we talked about earlier that business out. >>Yeah, it's that they said, in understanding both sides so that it keeps us on our ability to be able to deliver on exactly what you just said. It's being experts in the capabilities and new and better ways to do things but also having the kind of business under. I found it to be able to ask the right questions, identify how new a better price is positions and you touched on. Yet three vendors that we work with that you have on the panel are very genuinely of. I think of the most exciting around storage and pure is a great one. So yes, a lot of the way that they've made their way. The market is through impressive C and through producing data redundancy. But another area that I really like is with that platform, you can do more with less. And that's not just about using data redundancy. That's about creating application environment, that conservative, then the infrastructure to service different requirements are able to do that the random Io thing without getting too kind of low level as well as a sequential. So what that means is that you don't necessarily have to move data from application environment a do one thing. They disseminate it and then move it to the application environment. Be that based environment three in terms of an analytics on the left to right work. So keep the data where it is, use it for different requirements within the infrastructure and again do more with less. And what that does is not just about simplicity and efficiency. It significantly reduces the time to value. Well at that again resonates that I want to pick up a soundbite that resonates with all of the vendors we have on the panel later. This is the way that they're able todo a better a better TCO better our alliance significantly reduce the value of data. But to answer your question, yeah, you're exactly right. So it's key to us to kind of position, understand? Customer climbs, position the right technology. >>Adam. I wonder if you could give us your insights based on your experience with customers in terms of what success looks like. I'm interested in what they're measuring. I'm big on and end cycle times and taking a systems view, but of course you know customers. They want to measure everything, whether it's the productivity of developers or, you know, time to insights, etcetera. What >>are >>they? One of the KP eyes that are driving success and outcomes? >>Those capabilities on historically in our space have always been a bit really. When you talk about total cost of ownership, talk about return on investment, you talk about time to value on. I've worked in many different companies, many different infrastructure, often quite complicated environments and infrastructure. I'm being able to put together anything Security realistic gets proven out. One solution gets turned around our alliance TCO is challenging. But now with these new, a better approach is that more efficient, enables you to really build a true story and on replicate whatever you want. Obviously ran kind of our life, and the key thing is to say from data, But now it's time to value. So what we what? We help in terms of the scoping on in terms of the understanding what the requirements are, we specifically called out business outcomes what organizations are looking to achieve and then back on those metrics, uh, to those outcomes. What that does is a few different things, but it provides a certain success criteria. Whether that's success criteria within a proof of concept of the mobile solutions on being able to speak that language on before, more directly meet the needs of the business kind of crystallized defined way is we're only really be able to do that. Now we work with >>Yeah, So when you think about the business case, they are a why benefit over cost benefit obviously lower tco you lower the denominator, you're going to increase the output in the value. And then I would I would really stress that I think the numerator, ultimately especially in a world of data, is the most important. And I think the TCO is fundamental. It's really becoming table stakes. You gotta have simple. You've gotta have efficient. You've got to be agile. But it enables that that numerator, whether that's new customer revenue, maybe, you know, maybe cost savings across the business. And again that comes from taking that systems view. Do you >>have >>examples that you can share with us even if they're anonymous, eyes the customers that you work with that or maybe a little further down on the journey, or maybe not things that you can share with us that are proof points here. >>Sure, it's quite easy and very gratifying when you've spoken to a customer. We know you've been doing this for 20 years, and this is the way that your infrastructure if you think about it like this, if we implemented that technology or this new approach, then we will enable you to get simple, often ready, populous. Reduce your back. I worked on a project where a customer accused that back book from I think it was. It was nine. Just under 10. It was nine fully loaded. Wraps back. We should just for the it you're providing the fundamental underlying storage architectures. And they were able to consolidate that that down on, provide additional capacity. Great performance. The less than half Uh huh. Looking at the you mentioned data protection earlier. So another organization. This is a project which is just kind of nearing completion of the moment. Huge organization. They're literally petabytes of data that was servicing their back up in archive. And what they have is not just the reams of data, they have the combined thing. I different backup. Yeah, that they have dependent on the what area of infrastructure they were backing up. So whether it was virtualization that was different, they were backing up. Pretty soon they're backing up another database environment using something else in the cloud. So a consolidated approach that we recommended to work with them on they were able to significantly reduce complexity and reduce the amount of time that it system what they were able to achieve. And this is again one of the clients have they've gone above the threshold of being able to back up. When they tried to do a CR, you been everything back up into in a second. They want people to achieve it. Within the timescales is a disaster recovery, business continuity. So with this, we're able to prove them with a proof up. Just before they went into production and the our test using the new approach. And they were able to recover everything the entire interest in minutes instead of a production production, workloads that this was in comparison to hours and that was those hours is just a handful of workloads. They were able to get up and running with the entire estate, and I think it was something like an hour on the core production systems. They were up and running practically instantaneously. So if you look at really stepping back what the customers are looking to the chief, they want to be able to if there is any issues recover from those issues, understand what they're dealing with. Yeah, On another, we have customers that we work with recently what they had huge challenges around and they were understandably very scared about GDP are. But this is a little while ago, actually, a bit still no up. A conversation has gone away. Just everybody are still speaks to issues and concerns around GDP are applying understanding whether they so put in them in us in a position to be able to effectively react. Subject That was something that was a key metric. A target for on infrastructure solution that we work with and we were able to provide them with the insight into their data on day enables them to react to compliance. And they're here to get a subject access request way created in significantly. I'm >>awesome. Thank you for that. I want to pick up on a little bit. So the first example you get your infrastructure in order to bust down those silos and what I've when I talk to customers. And I've talked to a number of banks, insurance companies, other financial services of manufacturers when they're able to sort of streamline that data lifecycle and bring in automation and intelligence, if you will. What they tell me is now they're able to obviously compress the time to value, but also they're loading up on way more initiatives and projects that they can deliver for the business. And you talk for about about the line of business having self served. The businesses feel like they actually are really invested in the data, that it's their data that it's not, you know, confusing and a lot of finger pointing. So so that's that's huge on. And I think that your other example is right on as well of really clear business value that organizations are seeing. So thanks for those you know. Now is the time really, t get these houses in order, if you will, because it really drives competitive advantage, especially take your second example in this isolation economy, you know, being able to respond things like privacy are just increasingly critical. Adam, give us the final thoughts. Bring us home in this segment, >>not the farm of built, something we didn't particularly touch on that I think it's It's fairly fairly hidden. It isn't spoken about as much as I think it is that digital approaches to infrastructure we've already touched on there could be complicated on lack of efficiency, impact, a user's ability to be agile, what you find with traditional approaches. And you already touched on some of the kind of benefits and new approaches that they're often very prescriptive, designed for a particular as the infrastructure environment, the way that it served up to the users in a kind of A packaged either way means that they need to use it in that whatever way, in places. So that kind of self service aspect that comes in from a flexibility standpoint that for me in this platform approach, which is the right way to address technology in my eyes enables it's the infrastructure to be used effectively so that the business uses of the data users what we find in this capability into their hand and start innovating in the way that they use that on the way that they bring benefits a platform to prescriptive, and they are able to do that. So what you're doing with these new approaches is all of the metrics that we touched on fantastic from a cost standpoint, from a visibility standpoint. But what it means is that the innovators in the business want to really, really understand what they're looking to achieve and now tools to innovate with us. Now, I think I've started to see that with projects that were completed, you could do it in the right way. You articulate the capability and empower the business users in the right way. Then very significantly better position. Take advantage of this on really match and significantly bigger than their competition. >>Super Adam in a really exciting space. And we spent the last 10 years gathering all this data, you know, trying to slog through it and figure it out. And now, with the tools that we have and the automation capabilities, it really is a new era of innovation and insights. So, Adam or they didn't thanks so much for coming on the Cube and participating in this program >>Exciting times. And thank you very much today. >>Alright, Stay safe and thank you. Everybody, this is Dave Volante for the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hi everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here in Paolo Alto, California but during COVID, we're doin' all the remote interviews and gettin' the stories and celebrating the awards for the Partner Awards Show. And the award here is most customer-obsessed mission-based win in the federal area. We've got two great guests, Greg Siegel Senior Manager at Accenture and Frank Urbano Program Manager with the FBI Federal Bureau of Investigation. Gentlemen, thank you for joining me and congratulations on the win. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So let's break this down. So you're federal, big category, a lot of intelligence agencies been using the gov cloud and Amazon. What's the mission win? What's the award for? Tell us. >> So I guess the award is the Bureau was shutting down our data centers and we needed to move to an infrastructure that would support our application. That was the first problem that we were trying to actually solve. But also, we know we were always seeing a performance hit on our infrastructure, and we always suspected that by moving to the gov cloud, we'll see an increase in performance because once we went live in our current, in or old environment seven years ago, performance was always an issue, our end users were always complaining and then we moved to our VMs four years after that. We saw an increase in performance a little bit but then once we moved over to the cloud, the FBI secret cloud, we heard crickets. The end users haven't been complaining. Greg and I were actually talking about that the other day how, you know, there's minimal complaints as far as performance. That's going to be one of the themes you hear throughout is performance, performance, performance. >> Got to love the no complaints, that means it's workin', people are doin' their job, gettin' the job done. Greg, I want to get your thoughts on this because Accenture, we've had many conversations with you guys over there about being agile and now you're a partner. You know, the FBI, I saw a presentation in person at Reinvent, I think last year where the FBI was like, "Lookit, our workloads "are increasing and budget isn't increasing "at the same rate." So it's kind of like, you know, "I need more power." It's like that scene in Star Trek, "Scotty, more power," you need to get that power. Take us through that transformation because one, you got a good user experience. That means people are doin' their job. But the cases get bigger, the more workload is there, but the budget's got to be increased or leveraged better. What's your thoughts? How do you tackle that problem because it's do more with less, classic do more with less. >> That's right. Yeah, so as Frank said, I think the system had been live for about seven years and you see over that time in the traditional data centers how the performance requirements increase but as you said, are kind of there on hardware and not easily able to adapt and overcome those. So, you know, when it became clear that the cloud move was a serious consideration we were able to pull on a few other experiences that the firm has had moving similar technologies to the cloud and then kind of combined that with the experience implementing technology at the FBI. And those two components kind of together were able to get us on a path to successfully move to the cloud and be, you know, kind of one of the first big systems at the FBI to make that transition. So that was our approach. >> Frank, I'd like to ask, you mentioned crickets. That means, that's good, actually. No one's complaining. What was it like before when you had the data center? What were some of the complaints? What were some of the challenges that you were dealing with? >> So (chuckling) so some of the challenges we were dealing with was, to give an example, when we went live seven years ago, we actually deployed our application on hardware that was already end of life. And so immediately we saw challenges there. And so by moving to the cloud, it gave us a lot of architectural flexibility. And what I mean by that is that we control, now, our own destiny, meaning that in the past, we would have to put in change requests to have firewall configuration changes. Now that responsibility is with us. Our DBAs had limited access to actually do some type of performance tuning on the backend to our databases. Now we have full control of that. I guess a couple of examples, or one example that I would give is that we're in the COVID era, as you mentioned, right? We have a space where we, prior to COVID, we had about 70 people on staff, both government and at Accenture. And all of our development is done on the secret side. And we have major deliverables due at the end of September. Well, COVID hits, we now have to social distance and come up with a plan, and we have to have reduce our staff of 70, both functional developers down to anywhere between 10 people or less on-site. So that, right there, you know, we were talking major hit in our development effort and in cost, I guess, also. While we're doing our social distancing plan Greg came up to me and said, "Hey, why don't we move "our development environment and our test environment "to the gov cloud and scramble the data. "We'll be able to have our developers remote access in "and continue with our development efforts?" And I told Greg, "Great, put a plan together. "Let's talk to our information security officer." I said, "If he signs off on it, let's get off and running." We met with him, he signed off on them, and within two weeks that dev and test environment was up and running. And now, we're still on-track to meet our deliverable dates in September. >> That's a great example, well, that's awesome insight. Greg, expand on that because this is an example of agility. You talk about readiness, I mean it's unforecasted disruption, there's all kinds of use cases. "Oh, we have a hurricane," or whatever, you know. This is unforeseen and unique. Take us through-- >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. >> The agility piece here, on how you got deployed, time frame, and solution. >> Yeah, definitely. So yeah, it can't be overstated how much of a benefit it was that we had already gone through the process of refactoring a lot of our applications into the cloud and using some of those services available and, you know, able to containerize and take some of those application from where they were, as Frank mentioned, scramble the data, and then able to quickly use the cloud experience that we had to stand up an environment in gov cloud where it was more accessible for development that didn't need to take place on-site, was, essentially, the saving grace. We would have had major slowdowns in delivery, as Frank mentioned and a lot of cost implications there, so it really can't be overstated how much that experience having gone through it and being in a spot where we had that flexibility to quickly replicate our architecture, went a long way towards keeping the mission going as the world deals with the pandemic. >> Yeah, this is just a striking example. You know, first of all, I'm a cloud-biased person. I'm very much a, I lean heavily towards pro-cloud so I'll just say this as total bias. There are companies that have gone cloud and took advantage of that refactoring or reinvention and are in a position not only to hit the deadlines but also be in a position of growth strategy, or in this case, a mission-based expansion for the FBI, as Frank was alluding to. Could you imagine, Frank, if you had the data center challenge and you weren't in the cloud? And the you had to go to Greg, or somebody, and say, "Hey, what do you do?" So imagine you had the data center, and then COVID hits. A lot of people are on that side of the street, right now, goin', "What do we do?" >> Yeah, yeah we would have been dead in the water as Greg mentioned. You know, all of our work streams would have been forced out to the left. I couldn't even imagine, you know, the timelines that we would have had to come up with because we would have had to have come up with some rotation plan to develop, you know, team one can only come in on Mondays and Tuesdays and then team two would come in on Wednesdays and Thursdays which would have pushed out our delivery dates and as Greg mentioned also, cost goes up. Time is money, money's time. >> Yeah, I totally, and people goin' out of business because of it and, or settin' their mission back you know, decades. Greg, talk about what goes on next because obviously, congratulations on being a customer success, it's a great mission win here, but you got to get through this. So how are you guys huddling on this point? What are the conversations? What are you thinking? >> Yeah, so now we're at a point where I think, as I'd mentioned, when we first moved to the cloud, the primary mission was getting there securely, getting there within policy, and getting operational so we were making trade-off decisions on where to lift and shift, and where to refactor. Got through all of that successfully. Got through the initial challenge of COVID which definitely threw some of the plans for a loop as we shifted our operations and focused on getting operational in gov cloud. And now we are at a point where we've stabilized delivery again, and we're re-picking up where we left off on the cloud journey which is really focused now, on continuing to look at the investments that AWS is making in the technologies that are coming next. And it really enables us to get ahead of the trends, easily analyze some of these services, available, and then we enter into conversations with Frank and others and start making those trade-off decisions of when it's time to refactor, retire another part of our application and start to look to go cloud-native. So that's where we are now, is looking for ways to maximize and use those services to, again, save costs, improve performance, all of those things that go along with getting more and more mature in the cloud. >> You know, one of the things, Frank, I want to hear your thoughts on just as while I got you guys here is you think about old school, old guard, as Andy Jassy would say, or Teresa talk about. You got silos and you got all these things: legacy. Okay, got that. But as you guys look at your mission have secure data, catch the bad guys, and protect citizens, right? So (chuckling) I mean, I'm over-simplifying but generally, that's it. Data's critical, right? I mean, speed to the edge of the network which is the field and the people doing the job, is critical. Cloud has an opportunity to make that development cycle faster, and ultimately, the workloads and the impact. Could you share your thoughts on how the cloud and Amazon are bringin' that to the table because havin' the right data at the right time could mean the difference between life or death. >> Yeah, so Greg and I experienced this, and again, it's all about having that architectural flexibility, right? So back in February, we had a requirement where we had to expose a large amount of data to employees about themselves, but not only about themselves, but also to their managers. And so, you know, we went through the basic you know, develop it, and then put it into our test environment, however the problem that we had was that we couldn't assimilate the large amount of data that we're exposing to 40,000 FBI employees. Because when we tested out, everything seemed to go fine, but as luck would have it, once we went operational, the application crashed. Our two main engineers come in my office and within 30 minutes, they identified the problem, they had the solution, and we already implemented the solution. Within 30 minutes. You know, going back in the past, like seven years, like you were mentioning, back in the old days, I would have to go around, beg for funding, buy hardware, then I would have to submit a requisition. It would have to go through the approval process. We then would have to procure the hardware, receive the hardware, install it, test it out, load the application, test it again, and then go into Ops. You know, you're lookin' anywhere from a three month to a nine month delay right then and there that our engineers were able to solve within 30 minutes. >> I mean, again, I'm back to my bias again. I'm old enough to remember when I was in college. I mean, I never programmed on punch cards, so that's kind of dates me, (chuckling) but so I'm post punch card generation. I used to look at the guys runnin' the mainframes sayin', "Look at those old relics over there," and "huggin' the mainframe." But what they did was that the smart people repurposed and got into mini-computers, they got into networking, LANs and PCs. This is kind of the cloud moment where if you're going to hold onto that old way you're going to have that operating model, it's just not effective in any way. I just don't see any benefit, other than have a preserved workload that needs the certain data, or you put containers around it and you can bring that in, but there are those corner cases. But generally speaking, you got to move to the new model. >> Mm-hmm. >> Guys, react to that. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah. >> Evermore. Yeah. >> Yeah, I agree, I mean It can't really be overstated, just the flexibility that exists. I think a lot of times, people get hung up on the you know, most efficient way to move to the cloud or you have to use X amount of cloud services. But it can't be overstated, regardless of the approach that you take to making that migration, that once you are there, the kind of intangibles that you get, the ease to take an idea and test it out, flip the switch on, flip the switch off if you like it or not. It's really just opened the door for the team to take some of the more innovative ideas and we have regular conversations with Frank and others that I think are fun for all of us where we get to look at some of these things and we can actually think about and envision how to get them in without, to Frank's point, "putting in requisitions," doing major activities that are going to derail our other schedules to pilot some of these new ideas. >> Frank, you got to attract some, it's a personnel challenge, too. You want to attract young minds, smart, young people. They want what's contemporary and they want state-of-the-art, they want to be in the right positions, drivin' the right, fastest car they can, and being successful. There's a staff component. What's your thoughts on that? Because, you know, if a young person comes in it's like, "Hey, I want to rock and roll with this new stuff, "not the old stuff I see there." >> Right. >> And so Greg put together an innovation team where we have these great, young minds, right? And you know, they're always bringing different ideas, different services that we can utilize on AWS, and sometimes Greg and I have to pull the reins on 'em, like, "Okay, we'll do that, but we have "major applications that we got to develop and deploy." But it's always refreshing and great to see young people with their innovative ideas that they bring to the table. >> Well, final question for you guys, while I got ya here. You know, I've been reporting, we've been saying on these CUBE interviews, trying to make sense of this COVID environment, what's goin' on and what it exposes. And you can see the obvious things. But it generally exposes this great IoT experiment. We're all IoT devices at this point. You've got work places which are not home and office, workforces which are remote, workloads and workflows that are changing, new things are happening. How do you guys see this? Because it ultimately opens up the fact that the architecture has to support multiple endpoints, edge of the network, new connections, new workflows. How are you guys looking at this? What's your vision on this? >> So Greg, I'll take a first crack at it from a Bureau employee being with the Bureau for 31 years. I would never have thought in my wildest dreams that we'd actually have people workin' from home and being able to remote in, and actually do development. And we did it all within two weeks. It's just incredible the obstacles that the team overcome, but also the flexibility of the FBI leadership, knowing that this had to happen in order to, for continuity of operations. >> Great point, great insight. Greg, your thoughts. >> Yeah, I agree with everything that Frank said. It's been a great partnership and I think that the nice thing that surprised us all was when it got down to it, the security controls and requirements were there and able to be met with the tools at our disposal. So I think the great fear that everybody had to Frank's point, it just wasn't something that was normal to this point. But as we were all forced to reevaluate what we had to do, the fear was, "Well, what accommodations are we "going to have to make from a security standpoint?" And the answer was being able to operate again without exposing any of that data, the risk was really extremely low, to zero. All the folks from security we're able to work closely with in partnership, and make this happen again so we can keep delivering the mission. So I think that partnership and getting through it together and all feeling really comfortable that we're doing it in a secure way was really what enabled us to be successful. >> That's a great point. Frank, he brings up something I didn't bring up which is super important. You mentioned in the old way you got to get all these requisitions in purchase. Security is the same kind of new dynamic which is like, "Okay, you got to get "everything tested," but it goes faster when you have the cloud 'cause that's also another criteria, you got to still got to get the approvals whether you're working with another vendor or integrating with another app. That's still now the new issue. So that's got to be approved faster, so that's also now a bottleneck. How does cloud help make those security reviews go faster? >> Right, so so we were the first ones on the cloud. So or security team was still defining the ATO process for us. However, what we did was we aligned ourselves with that team so that we could meet all the security requirements, but also app out all the security controls. And so from the time that we actually had the design till we went into deployment onto the SC2S or the cloud, and we went through the ATO process, it only took us eight months which really, in the past, that effort could have took anywhere from a year and a half to two years just because of the old ATO process. >> Awesome. Well, Greg and Frank, congratulations on a great award, Amazon Public Sector Partner Awards Show, most customer-obsessed mission-based win in the federal category. Congratulations. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Okay, theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards Show, I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE. Thanks for watching. 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>> announcer: From around the globe. It's the theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon live 2020. Brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE coverage here at the DockerCon virtual headquarters, anchor desks here in the Palo Alto Studios were quarantined in this virtual event of DockerCon. I'm John Furrier, host along with Jenny Bertuccio, John Kreisa, Peter McKee, other folks who are moderating and weaving in and out of the sessions. But here we have a live sessions with Justin Graham, Vice President of the Products group at Docker. Justin, thanks for coming in DockerCon virtual '20. >> Absolutely, happy to be here from my home office in Seattle, Washington where it is almost sunny. >> You had a great backdrop traveler saying in the chat you got a bandwidth, a lot of bandwidth there. Looking good, some island. What a day for Docker global event. 77,000 people registered. It's just been an awesome party. >> It's been great, I could hardly sleep last night. I was up at 5:00 this morning. I was telling my son about it at breakfast. I interrupted his Zoom school. And he talked a little bit about it, so it's been awesome. I've been waiting for this interview slot for the most of the day. >> So yeah, I got to tell the kids to get off, download those gigabytes of new game updates and get off Netflix, I hear you. But you got good bandwidth. Let's get into it, I love your position. VP of Product at a company that's super technical, a lot of software, a lot of cloud. You've got a good view of the landscape of what the current situation is relative to the product, the deals that are going on with this new announced here, sneak Microsoft expansion, multiple clouds as well as the roadmap and community interaction. So you got a lot going on, you've got your fingers in all the action. When you get the keys to the kingdom, as we say in the product side of things, what's the story today from your perspective around DockerCon? What's the most important thing people should know about of what's going on with this new Docker? Obviously, ease of use, we've heard a lot about. What's going on? >> So I'll start with people. We are hyper focused on helping developers and development teams build and ship applications. That's what we're focused on. That's what we wake up every day thinking about. And we double click on that a minute in terms of what that means. If you think about where source control ends and having a running application on some production compute in the Cloud on the other end, there's a whole lot that needs to happen in the middle of those two things. And we hear from our development community and we see from those folks, there's a lot of complexity and choices and options and things in the middle there. And we really want to help streamline the creation of those pipelines to get those apps moving to production as fastly, as quickly as possible. >> And you can see it in some of the results and some of the sessions, one session coming up at around four, around how pipelining with Docker help increase the problem solving around curing cancer, really solving, saving people's lives to the front lines with COVID 19 to business value. So you seeing, again Docker coming back into the fold relative to the simple value proposition of making things super easy for developers, but on top of the mega trend of microservices. So, outside of some of these awesome sessions with his learning, the hardcore sessions here at DockerCon around microservices from monitoring, you name it, not a trivial thing cause you've got stateless and state, all kinds of new things are going on with multiple clouds. So not an easy-- >> No. >> road to kind of grok or understand you have to manage that. What are people paying attention to? What is happening? I think, first off I'll say, one of the things that I'm super passionate about is increasing access to technology, so the greatest and best ideas can get bubbled up to the top and expose no matter where they come from, whom they come from, et cetera. And I think one of the things that makes that harder, that makes that complex is just how much developers need to understand or even emerging developers need to understand. Just to even get started. Languages, IDEs, packaging, building where do you ship to? If you pick a certain powder end point, you have to understand networking and storage and identity models are just so much you have to absorb. So we're hyper focused on how can we make that complex super easy. And these are all the things that we get asked questions on. And we get interacted with on our public roadmap in other places to help with. So that's the biggest things that you're going to see coming out of Docker starting now and moving forward. We'll be serving that end. >> Let's talk about some of the new execution successes you guys had. Honestly, Snyk is security shifting left, that's a major, I think a killer win for Snyk. Obviously, getting access to millions of developers use Docker and vice versa. Into the shifting left, you get to security in that workflow piece. Microsoft expanding relationship's interesting as well because Microsoft's got a robust tech developer ecosystem. They have their own tools. So, you see these symbiotic relationship with Docker, again, coming into the fold where there's a lot of working together going on. Explain that meaning, what does that mean? >> So you're on the back of the refocus Docker in our hyperfocus on developers and development teams, one of the core tenants of the how. So before that was the what. This is the how we're going to go do it. Is by partnering with the ecosystem as much as possible and bringing the best of breed in front of developers in a way that they can most easily consume. So if you take the Snyk partnership that was just a match, a match made in developer dopamine as a Sean Connolly, would say. We're hyper focused on developers and development teams and Snyk is also hyperfocused on making it as easy as possible for developers and development teams to stay secure ship, fast and stay secure. So it really just matched up super well. And then if you think, "Well, how do we even get there in the first place?" Well, we launched our public roadmap a few months ago, which was a first that Docker has ever done. And one of the first things that comes onto that public roadmap is image vulnerability scanning. For Docker, at that time it was really just focused on Docker Hub in terms of how it came through the roadmap. It got up voted a bunch, there has been some interaction and then we thought, "Well, why just like checking that box isn't enough," right? It's just checking the box. What can we do that really brings sort of the promise of the Docker experience to something like this? And Sneak was an immediate thought, in that respect. And we just really got in touch with them and we just saw eye to eye almost immediately. And then off off the rest went. The second piece of it was really around, well why just do it in Docker Hub? What about Docker Desktop? It's downloaded 80,000 times a week and it's got 2.2 million active installations on a weekly basis. What about those folks? So we decided to raise the bar again and say, "Hey, let's make sure that this partnership includes "not only Docker Hub but Docker Desktop, so you'll be able, when we launch this, to scan your images locally on Docker Desktop. >> Awesome, I see getting some phone calls and then you got to hit this, hit the end button real quick. I saw that in there. I've got an interesting chat I want to just kind of lighten things up a little bit from Brian Stevenson. He says, "Justin, what glasses are those?" (Justin laughing) So he wants to know what kind of glasses you're wearing. >> They're glasses that I think signal that I turned 40 last year. >> (laughs) I'd say it's for your gaming environments, the blue light glasses. >> But I'm not going to say where they came from because it's probably not going to engender a bunch of positive good. But they're nice glasses. They help me see the computer screen and make sure that I'm not a bad fingering my CLI commands >> Well as old guys need the glasses, certainly I do. Speaking of old and young, this brought up a conversation since that came up, I'll just quickly riff into this cause I think it's interesting, Kelsey Hightower, during the innovation panel talked about how the developers and people want to just do applications, someone to get under the hood, up and down the stack. I was riffing with John Chrysler, around kind of the new generation, the kids coming in, the young guns, they all this goodness at their disposal. They didn't have to load Linux on a desktop and Rack and Stack servers all that good stuff. So it's so much more capable today. And so this speaks to the modern era and the expansion overall of opensource and the expansion of the people involved, new expectations and new experiences are required. So as a product person, how do you think about that? Because you don't want to just build for the old, you got to build for the new as well as the experience changes and expectations are different. What's your thoughts around that? >> Yeah, I think about sort of my start in this industry as a really good answer to that. I mean, I remember as a kid, I think I asked for a computer for every birthday and Christmas from when I was six, until I got one given to me by a friend's parents in 1994, on my way off to boarding school. And so it took that long just for me to get a computer into my hands. And then when I was in school there wasn't any role sort of Computer Science or coding courses until my senior year. And then I had to go to an Engineering School at Rensselaer city to sort of get that experience at the time. I mean, just to even get into this industry and learn how to code was just, I mean, so many things had to go my way. And then Microsoft hired me out of college. Another thing that sort of fell my way. So this work that we're doing is just so important because I worked hard, but I had a lot of luck. But not everybody's going to have some of that, right? Have that luck. So how can we make it just as easy as possible for folks to get started wherever you are. If you have a family and you're working another full time job, can you spend a few hours at night learning Docker? We can help you with that. Download Docker Desktop. We have tutorials, we have great docs, we have great captains who teach courses. So everything we're doing is sort of in service of that vision and that democratization of getting into the ideas. And I love what Kelsey, said in terms of, let's stop talking about the tech and let's stop talking about what folks can do with the tech. And that's very, very poignant. So we're really working on like, we'll take care of all the complexity behind the scenes and all of the VMs and the launching of containers and the network. We'll try to help take care of all that complexity behind the curtain so that you can just focus on getting your idea built as a developer. >> Yeah, and you mentioned Kelsey, again. He got a great story about his daughter and Serverless and I was joking on Twitter that his daughter convinced them that Serverless is great. Of course we know that Kelsey already loves Serverless. But he's pointing out this developer dopamine. He didn't say that's Shawn's word, but that's really what his daughter wanted to do is show her friends a website that she built, not get into, "Hey look, I just did a Kubernetes cluster." I mean it's not like... But pick your swim lane. This is what it's all about now. >> Yeah, I hope my son never has to understand what a service mesh is or proxy is. Right? >> Yeah. >> I just hope he just learn the language and just learns how to bring an idea to life and all the rest of it is just behind me here. >> When he said I had a parenting moment, I thought he's going to say something like that. Like, "Oh my kid did it." No, I had to describe whether it's a low level data structure or (laughs) just use Serverless. Shifting gears on the product roadmap for Docker, can you share how folks can learn about it and can you give some commentary on what you're thinking right now? I know you guys put on GitHub. Is there a link available-- >> Absolutely, available. Github.com/docker/roadmap. We tried to be very, very poignant about how we named that. So it was as easy as possible. We launched it a few months ago. It was a first in terms of Docker publicly sharing it's roadmap and what we're thinking and what we're working on. And you'll find very clear instructions of how to post issues and get started. What our code of conduct is. And then you can just get started and we even have a template for you to get started and submit an issue and talk to us about it. And internally my team and to many of our engineers as well, we triaged what we see changing and coming into the public roadmap two to three times a week. So for a half an hour to 45 minutes at a time. And then we're on Slack, batting around ideas that are coming in and saying how we can improve those. So for everyone out there, we really do pay attention to this very frequently. And we iterate on it and the image vulnerability scannings one of those great examples you can see some other things that we're working on up there. So I will say this though, there has been some continual asks for our Lennox version of Docker Desktop. So I will commit that, if we get 500 up votes, that we will triage and figure out how to get that done over a period of time. >> You heard 500 up votes to triage-- >> 500 >> You as get that. And is there a shipping date on that if they get the 500 up votes? >> No, no, (John laughs) you went to a shipping date yet, but it's on the public roadmap. So you'll know when we're working on it and when we're getting there. >> I want before I get into your session you had with the capital, which is a very geeky session getting under the hood, I'm more on the business side. The tail wind obviously for Docker is the micro services trend. What containers has enabled is just going to continue to get more awesome and complex but also a lot of value and agility and all the things you guys are talking about. So that obviously is going to be a tailwind for you. But as you guys look at that piece of it, specifically the business value, how is Docker positioned? Because a of the use cases are, no one really starts out microservices from a clean sheet of paper that we heard some talks here DockerCon where the financial services company said, "Hey, it's simple stack," and then it became feature creep, which became a monolith. And then they had to move that technical debt into a much more polyglot system where you have multiple tools and there's a lot of things going on, that seems to be the trend that also speaks to the legacy environment that most enterprises have. Could you share your view on how Docker fits into those worlds? Because you're either coming from a simple stack that more often and got successful and you're going to go microservice or you have legacy, then you want to decouple and make it highly cohesive. So your thoughts. >> So the simple answer is, Docker can help on both ends. So I think as these new technologies sort of gain momentum and get talked about a bunch and sort of get rapid adoption and rapid hype, then they're almost conceived to be this wall that builds up where people start to think, "Well, maybe my thing isn't modern enough," or, "Maybe my team's not modern enough," or, "Maybe I'm not moderate enough to use this." So there's too much of a hurdle to get over. And that we don't see that at all. There's always a way to get started. Even thinking about the other thing, and I'd say, one we can help, let us know, ping us, we'll be happy to chat with you, but start small, right? If you're in a large enterprise and you have a long legacy stack and a bunch of legacy apps, think about the smallest thing that you can start with, then you can begin to break off of that. And as a proof of concept even by just downloading Docker Desktop and visual studio code and just getting started with breaking off a small piece, and improve the model. And I think that's where Docker can be really helpful introducing you to this paradigm and pattern shift of containers and containerized packaging and microservices and production run time. >> And certainly any company coming out of his post pandemic is going to need to have a growth strategy that's going to be based on apps that's going to be based on the projects that they're currently working, double down on those and kind of sunset the ones that aren't or fix the legacy seems to be a major Taylor. >> The second bit is, as a company, you're going to also have to start something new or many new things to innovate for your customers and keep up with the times and the latest technology. So start to think about how you can ensure that the new things that you're doing are starting off in a containerized way using Docker to help you get there. If the legacy pieces may not be able to move as quickly or there's more required there, just think about the new things you're going to do and start new in that respect. >> Well, let's bring some customer scenarios to the table. Pretend I'm a customer, we're talking, "Hey Justin, you're looking good. "Hey, I love Docker. I love the polyglot, blah, blah, blah." Hey, you know what? And I want to get your response to this. And I say, "DevOps won't work here where we are, "it's just not a good fit." What do you say when you hear things like that? >> See my previous comment about the wall that builds up. So the answer is, and I remember hearing this by the way, about Agile years ago, when Agile development and Agile processes began to come in and take hold and take over for sort of waterfall processes, right? What I hear customers really saying is, "Man, this is really hard, this is super hard. "I don't know where to start, it's very hard. "How can you help? "Help me figure out where to start." And that is one of the things that we're very very very clearly working on. So first off we just, our docs team who do great work, just made an unbelievable update to the Docker documentation homepage, docs.docker.com. Before you were sort of met with a wall of text in a long left navigation that if you didn't know what you were doing, I would know where to go. Now you can go there and there's six very clear paths for you to follow. Do you want to get started? Are you looking for a product manual, et cetera. So if you're just looking for where to get started, just click on that. That'll give you a great start. when you download Docker Desktop, there's now an onboarding tutorial that will walk you through getting your first application started. So there are ways for you to help and get started. And then we have a great group of Docker captains Bret Fisher, many others who are also instructors, we can absolutely put you in touch with them or some online coursework that they deliver as well. So there's many resources available to you. Let us help you just get over the hump of getting started. >> And Jenny, and on the community side and Peter McKee, we're talking about some libraries are coming out, some educational stuff's coming around the corner as well. So we'll keep an eye out for that. Question for you, a personal question, can you share a proud devOps Docker moment that you could share with the audience? >> Oh wow, so many to go through. So I think a few things come to mind over the past few weeks. So for everyone that has no... we launched some exciting new pricing plans last week for Docker. So you can now get quite a bit of value for $7 a month in our pro plan. But the amount of work that the team had to do to get there was just an incredible thing. And just watching how the team have a team operated and how the team got there and just how they were turning on a dime with decisions that were being made. And I'm seeing the same thing through some of our teams that are building the image vulnerability scanning feature. I won't quote the number, but there's a very small number of people working on that feature that are creating an incredible thing for customers. So it's just how we think every day. Because we're actually almost trying to productize how we work, right? And bring that to the customer. >> Awesome, and your take on DockerCon virtual, obviously, we're all in this situation. The content's been rich on the site. You would just on the captains program earlier in the day. >> Yes. >> Doctor kept Brett's captain taught like a marathon session. Did they grill you hard or what was your experience on the captain's feed? >> I love the captain's feed. We did a run of that for the Docker birthday a few months ago with my co-worker Justin Cormack. So yes, there are two Justin's that work at Docker. I got the internal Justin Slack handle. He got the external, the community Slack Justin handle. So we split the goods there. But lots of questions about how to get started. I mean, I think there was one really good question there. Someone was saying asking for advice on just how to get started as someone who wants to be a new engineer or get into coding. And I think we're seeing a lot of this. I even have a good friend whose wife was a very successful and still is a very successful person in the marketing field. And is learning how to code and wants to do a career switch. Right? >> Yeah. >> So it's really exciting. >> DockerCon is virtual. We heard Kelsey Hightower, we heard James Governor, talk about events going to be more about group conventions getting together, whether they're small, medium, or large. What's your take on DockerCon virtual, or in general, what makes a great conference these days? Cause we'll soon get back to the physical space. But I think the genie's out of the bottle, that digital space has no boundaries. It's limitless and creativity. We're just scratching the surface. What makes a great event in your mind? >> I think so, I go back to thinking, I've probably flown 600,000 miles in the past three years. Lots of time away from my family, lots of time away from my son. And now that we're all in this situation together in terms of being sheltered in place in the global pandemic and we're executing an event that has 10 times more participation from attendees than we had in our in person event. And I sat back in my chair this morning and I was thinking, "Did I really need to fly that 600,000 miles "in the past three years?" And I think James Governor, brought it up earlier. I really think the world has changed underneath us. It's just going to be really hard to... This will all be over eventually. Hopefully we'll get to a vaccine really soon. And then folks will start to feel like world's a little bit more back to "normal" but man, I'm going to really have to ask myself like, "Do I really need to get on this airplane "and fly wherever it is? "Why can't I just do it from my home office "and give my son breakfast and take them to school, "and then see them in the evening?" Plus second, like I mentioned before in terms of access, no in person event will be able to compete ever with the type of access that this type of a platform provides. There just aren't like fairly or unfairly, lots of people just cannot travel to certain places. For lots of different reasons, monetary probably being primary. And it's not their job to figure out how to get to the thing. It's our job to figure out how to get the tech and the access and the learning to them. Right? >> Yeah (murmurs) >> So I'm super committed to that and I'll be asking the question continually. I think my internal colleagues are probably laughing now because I've been beating the drum of like, "Why do we ever have to do anything in person anymore?" Like, "Let's expand the access." >> Yeah, expand the access. And what's great too is the CEO was in multiple chat streams. So you could literally, it's almost beam in there like Star Trek. And just you can be more places that doesn't require that spatial limitations. >> Yeah. >> I think face to face will be good intimate more a party-like environment, more bonding or where social face to face is more impactful. >> We do have to figure out how to have the attendee party virtually. So, we have to figure out how to get some great electronic, or band, or something to play a virtual show, and like what the ship everybody a beverage, I don't now. >> We'll co-create with Dopper theCUBE pub and have beer for everybody if need they at some point (laughs). Justin, great insight. Thank you for coming on and sharing the roadmap update on the product and your insights into the tech as well as events. Appreciate it, thank you. >> Absolutely, thank you so much. And thanks everyone for attending. >> Congratulations, on all the work on the products Docker going to the next level. Microservices is a tailwind, but it's about productivity, simplicity. Justin, the product, head of the product for Docker, VP of product on here theCUBE, DockerCon 2020. I'm John Furrier. Stay with us for more continuous coverage on theCUBE track we're on now, we're streaming live. These sessions are immediately on demand. Check out the calendar. There's 43 sessions submitted by the community. Jump in there, there are own container of content. Get in there, pun intended, and chat, and meet people, and learn. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more after this break. (upbeat music)