>> Announcer: From Miami Beach, Florida, it's The Cube, covering Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019. Brought to you by Acronis. >> Welcome back everyone. We are here with The Cube coverage for two days. We're wrapping up, getting down on day one in the books for the Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier, your host of The Cube. We are in Miami Beach, the Fontainebleau Hotel. I'm personally excited for this next guest because I'm a huge Red Sox fan, even though I got moved out to California. Giants is in a different area. National League is different than American League, still my heart with the Red Sox. And we're here with an industry veteran, seasoned professional in IT and data, Brian Shield. Boston Red Sox Vice President of Technology and IT. Welcome to The Cube, thanks for joining us. >> Thank you. It's great to be here. >> John: So congratulations on the rings. Since I moved out of town, Red sox win their World Series, break the curse of the Bambino. >> Hey we appreciate that. Thank you. >> My family doesn't want me back. You got to show >> Yeah, maybe I'll put this one up for the, maybe someone can zoom in on this. Which camera is the good one? This one here? So, there ya go. So, World Series champs for at least for another week. (laughter) >> Bummer about this year. Pitching just couldn't get it done. But, good team. >> Happens. >> Again, things move on, but you know. New regime, new GM going to come on board. >> Yup. >> So, but in general, Red Sox, storied franchise. Love it there. Fenway Park, the cathedral of baseball parks. >> Brian: Defnitely. >> And you're seeing that just play out now, standard. So just a great place to go. We have tickets there. So, I got to ask you. Technology, sports, really is modernized faster than I think any category. And certainly cyber security forced to modernize because of the threats. But sports, you got a business to run, not just IT and making the planes run on time. >> Sure. >> Scouts, money, whatever. >> Fans. >> You got fan experience. >> Stadium opportunities. >> Club management, scouts are out there. So you got business, team, fans. And data's a big part of it. That's part of your career. Tell us what the cutting edge innovation is at the Red Sox these days. >> I think baseball in general, as you indicated, it's a very evolving kind of environment. I mean historically I think people really sort of relish the nostalgia of sports and Fenway Park being as historic as it is, was probably the pinnacle of that, in some respects. But Red Sox have always been leaders and baseball analytics, you know. And everyone's pretty familiar with "Moneyball" and Brad Pitt. >> John: Is that a true story, he turned down the GM job? >> I'm told it is. (laughter) I don't know if I fully vetted that question. But over the last six, seven years, you know we've really turned our attention to sort of leveraging sort of technology across the businesses, right? Not just baseball and analytics and how we do scouting, which continues to evolve at a very rapid pace. But also as you pointed out, running a better business, understanding our fans, understanding fan behavior, understanding stadiums. There's a lot of challenges around running an effective stadium. First and foremost to all of us is really ensuring it's a great fan experience. Whether it's artificial intelligence, or IoT technologies or 5G or the latest Wifi, all those things are coming up at Fenway Park. You and I talked earlier about we're about to break ground for a new theater, so a live theater on the outside, beyond the bleachers type of thing. So that'll be a 5,400-seat arena, 200 live performances a year, and with e-sports, you know, complementing it. It just gives you an example of just how fast baseball is sort of transitioning. >> And the theater, is that going to be blown out from where that parking garage is, structure and going towards >> So the corner of Landsdown and Ipswich, if you think of that sort of corner back there, for those that are familiar with the Fenway area. So it's going to be a very big change and you'll see the difference too from within the ballpark. I think we'll lose a couple of rows of the bleachers. That'll be replaced with another gathering area for fans and things like that, on the back end of that theater. So build a great experience and I think it really speaks to sort of our ability to think of Fenway as more of a destination, as a venue, as a complementary experience. We want people to come to the area to enjoy sports and to enjoy entertainment and things. >> You know Brian, the consumerization of IT has been kicked around. Last decade, that was a big buzzword. Now the blending of a physical event and digital has certainly consumed the world. >> Absolutely. >> And we're starting to see that dynamic. You speak to a theater. That's a physical space. But digital is also a big part of kind of that complementary. It's not mutually exclusive for each other. They're integrated business models. >> Absolutely. >> So therefore, the technology has to be seamless. The data has to be available. >> Yup. >> And it's got to be secure. >> Well the data's got to be ubiquitous, right? I mean you don't want to, if we're going to have fans attending theater and then you're going to go to Fenway Park or they leave a game and then go to some other event or they attend a tour of Fenway Park, and beyond maybe the traditional what people might think about, is certainly when you think about baseball and Fenway Park. You know we have ten to twelve concerts a year. We'll host Spartan games, you know. This Christmas, I'm sorry, Christmas 2020 we now have sort of the Fenway Bowl. So we'll be hosting the AAC ACC championship games there with ESPN. >> John: Hockey games? >> Hockey games. Obviously we have Liverpool soccer being held there so it's much more of a destination, a venue for us. How we leverage all the wonderful things about Fenway Park and how we modernize, how we get basically the best of what makes Fenway Park as great as it is, yet as modern as we can make it, where appropriate to create a great fan experience. >> It's a tough balance between balancing the brand and having things on brand as well. >> Sure. >> Does that come into your job a lot around IT? Saying being on brand, not kind of tearing down the old. >> Yeah absolutely. I think our CEOs and leadership team, I mean it's not success for us if you pan to the audience and everyone is looking at their phone, right? That's not what we aspire to. We aspire to leverage technology to simplify people's experience of how do you get to the ballpark, how do I park, how do I get if I want to buy concessions or merchandise, how do I do it easily and simply? How do we supplement that experience with maybe additional data that you may not have had before. Things like that, so we're doing a lot of different testing right now whether it's 4D technologies or how we can understand, watch a play from different dimensions or AI and be able to perhaps see sort of the skyline of Boston since 1912, when Fenway Park launched... And so we sort of see all these technologies as supplemental materials, really kind of making it a holistic experience for fans. >> In Las Vegas, they have a section of Las Vegas where they have all their test beds. 5G, they call it 5G, it's really, you know, evolution, fake 5G but it's a sandbox. One of the challenges that you guys have in Boston, I know from a constraint standpoint physically, you don't have a lot of space. How do you sandbox new technologies and what are some of the things that are cool that people might not know about that are being sandboxed? So, one, how do you do it? >> Yeah. >> Effectively. And then what are some of the cool things that you guys are looking at or things they might not know about that would be interesting. >> Sure. Yeah so Fenway Park, we struggle as you know, a little bit with our footprint. You know, honestly, I walk into some of these large stadiums and I get instant jealousy, relative to just the amount of space that people have to work with and things. But we have a great relationship with our partners so we really partner, I think, particularly well with key partners like Verizon and others. So we now have 5G partially implemented at Fenway Park. We expect to have it sort of fully live come opening day next year. So we're really excited about that. We hope to have a new version of Wifi, the latest version of Wifi available, for the second half of the year. After the All-Star Break, probably after the season's over. But before our bowl game hopefully. We're looking at some really interesting ways that we can tease that out. That bowl game, we're really trying to use that as an opportunity, the Fenway Bowl, as an opportunity to make it kind of a high-tech bowl. So we're looking at ways of maybe doing everything from hack-a-thons to a pre-egaming sort of event to some interesting fan experiential opportunities and things like that. >> Got a lot of nerds at MIT, Northeastern, BU, Bentley, Babson, all the schools in the area. >> Yeah, so we'll be reaching out to colleges and we'll be reaching out to our, the ACC and AACs as well, and see what we can do to kind of create sort of a really fun experience and capitalize on the evolving role of e-sports and the role that technology can play in the future. >> I want to get to the e-sports in a second but I want to just get the plug in for Acronis. We're here at their Global Cyber Summit. You flew down for it, giving some keynote speeches and talks around security. It's a security company, data protection, to cyber protection. It is a data problem, not a storage appliance problem. It's a data problem holistically. You get that. >> Sure. Sure. >> You've been in the business for a long time. What is the security kind of posture that you guys have? Obviously you want to protect the data, protect privacy. But you got to business. You have people that work with you, supply chain, complex but yet dynamic, always on environment. >> That's a great question. It's evolving as you indicated. Major League Baseball, first and foremost, does an outstanding job. So the last, probably last four plus years, Major League Baseball has had a cyber security program that all the clubs partake in. So all 30 clubs are active participants in the program. They basically help build out a suite of tools as well as the ability to kind of monitor, help participate in the monitoring, sort of a lot of our cyber security assets and logs And that's really elevated significantly our posture in terms of security. We supplement that quite a bit and a good example of that is like Acronis. Acronis, for us, represents the ability for us to be able to respond to certain potential threats like ransom-ware and other things. As well as frankly, what's wonderful about a tool like this is that it allows us to also solve other problems. Making our scouts more efficient. We've got these 125 scouts scattered around the globe. These guys are the lifeblood of our, you know, the success of our business. When they have a problem, if they're in Venezuela or the Dominican or someplace else, in southeast Asia, getting them up and running as quickly as we can, being able to consume their video assets and other things as they're scouting prospects. We use Acronis for those solutions. It's great to kind of have a partner who can both double down as a cyber partner as well as someone who helps drive a more efficient business. >> People bring their phone into the stadiums too so those are end points now connecting to your network. >> Definitely. And as you pointed out before, we've got great partnerships. We've got a great concession relationship with Aramark and they operate, in the future they'll be operating off our infrastructure. So we're in the point of rolling out all new point-of-sale terminals this off-season. We're excited about that 'cause we think for the first time it really allows us to build a very comprehensive, very secure environment for both ourselves and for all the touchpoints to fans. >> You have a very stellar career. I noticed you were at Scudder Investments back in the '80s, very cutting-edge firm. FTD that set the whole standard for connecting retailers. Again, huge scale play. Can see the data kind of coming out, they way you've been a CIO, CTO. The EVP CIO at The Weather Channel and the weather.com again, first mover, kind of pioneer. And then now the Red Sox, pioneering. So I got to ask you the modernization question. Red Sox certainly have been cutting-edge, certainly under the last few owners, and the previous Henry is a good one, doing more and more, Has the business model of baseball evolved, 'cause you guys a franchise. >> Sure. >> You operate under the franchisor, Major League Baseball, and you have jurisdictions. So has digital blurred the lines between what Advanced Media unit can do. You got communities developing outside. I watch the games in California. I'm not in there but I'm present digitally. >> Sure. Sure. >> So how has the business model flexed with the innovation of baseball? >> That's a great question. So I mean, first off, the relationship between clubs like ours and MLB continue to evolve. We have a new commissioner, relatively new commissioner, and I think the whole one-baseball model that he's been promoting I think has been great. The boundaries sometimes between digital assets and how we innovate and things like that continues to evolve. Major League Baseball and technology groups and product groups that support Major League Baseball have been a fantastic partner of ours. If you look at some of the innovations with Statcast and some of the other types of things that fans are now becoming more familiar with. And when they see how fast a runner goes or how far a home run goes and all those sort of things, these kinds of capabilities are on the surface, but even like mobile applications, to make it easy for fans to come into ballparks and things like that really. What we see is really are platforms for the future touchpoints to all of our customers. But you're right, it gets complicated. Streaming videos and people hadn't thought of before. >> Latin America, huge audience for the Red Sox. Got great players down there. That's outside the jurisdiction, I think, of the franchise agreement, isn't it? (laughs) >> Well, it's complicated. As this past summer, we played two games in England, right? So we enjoy two games in London, sadly we lost to the Yankees in both of those, but amazing experience and Major League Baseball really hats off to those guys, what they did to kind of pull that together. >> You mentioned Statcast. Every year when I meet with Andy Jassy at AWS, he's a sports fan. We love to talk sports. That's a huge, kind of shows the power of data and cloud computing. >> No doubt. >> How do you guys interface with Statcast? Is that an Amazon thing? Do they come to you? Are they leveraging dimensions, camera angles? How does that all work? Are you guys involved in that or? >> Brian: Oh yeah, yeah. >> Is that separate? >> So Statcast is just one of many data feeds as you can imagine. One of the things that Major League Baseball does is all that type of data is readily available to every club. So every club has access to the data. The real competitive differentiator, if you will, is how you use it internally. Like how your analysts can consume that data. We have a baseball system we call Beacon. We retired Carmine, if you're familiar with the old days of Carmine. So we retired Carmine a few years ago with Beacon. And Beacon for us represents sort of our opportunity to effectively collapse all this information into a decision-making environment that allows us to hopefully to kind of make the best decisions to win the most games. >> I love that you're answering all these questions. I really appreciate it. The one I really want to get into is obviously the fan experience. We talked about that. No talent on the field means no World Series so you got to always be constantly replenishing the talent pool, farm system, recruiting, scouting, all these things go on. They're instrumental. Data's a key driver. What new innovations that the casual fan or IT person might be interested in what's going on around scouting and understanding the asset of a human being? >> Right. Sure. I mean some of this gets highly confidential and things, but I think at a macro level, as you start to see both in the minor leagues and in some portions of the major leagues, wearable technologies. I think beyond just sort of player performance information that you would see traditionally with you might associate it with like Billy Beane, and things like that with "Moneyball" which is evolved obviously considerably since those days. I mean understanding sort of player wellness, understanding sort of how to get the most out of a player and understanding sort of, be able to kind of predict potential injuries and accelerate recoveries and being able to use all of this technology where appropriate to really kind of help sort of maximize the value of player performance. I mean, David Ortiz, you know, I don't know where we would have been in 2018 without, you know, David. >> John: Yeah. >> But like, you know >> Longevity of a player. >> Absolutely. >> To when they're in the zone. You wear a ring now to tell you if you're sleeping well. Will managers have a visual, in-the-zone, don't pull 'em out, he can go an extra inning? >> Well, I mean they have a lot of data. We currently don't provide all that data to the clubhouse. I mean, you know, and so If you're in the dugout, that information isn't always readily available type of thing. But players know all this information. We continue to evolve it. At the end of the day though, it's finding the balancing act between data and the aptitudes of our coaching staff and our managers to really make the wise decisions. >> Brian, final question for you. What's the coolest thing you're working on right now? Besides the fan having a great experience, 'cause that's you kind of touched on that. What's the coolest thing that you're excited about that you're working on from a tech perspective that you think is going to be game-changing or interesting? >> I think our cloud strategy coming up in the future. It's still a little bit early stage, but our hope would be to kind of have clarity about that in the next couple months. I think is going to be a game-changer for us. I think having, you know, we enjoy a great relationship with Dell EMC and yet we also do work in the cloud and so being able to leverage the best of both of those to be able to kind of create sort of a compelling experience for both fans, for both player, baseball operations as well as sort of running an efficient business, I think is really what we're all about. >> I mean you guys are the poster child for hybrid cloud because you got core, data center, IoT, and >> No doubt. So it's exciting times. And we're very fortunate that with our relationship organizations like Dell and EMC, we have leading-edge technologies. So we're excited about where that can go and kind of what that can mean. It'll be a big step. >> Okay two personal questions from me as a fan. One is there really a money-counting room like in the movie "The Town"? Where they count a big stack of dollar bills. >> Well, I'm sure there is. I personally haven't visited it. (laughs) I know it's not in the room that they would tell you it is on the movie. (laughter) >> And finally, can The Cube get press passes to cover the games, next to NESN? Talk tech. >> Yeah, we'll see what we can do. >> They can talk baseball. We can talk about bandwidth. Right now, it's the level five conductivity. We're looking good on the pipes. >> Yeah we'll give you a tech tour. And you guys can sort of help us articulate all that to the fans. >> Thank you so much. Brian Shield, Vice President of Technology of the Boston Red Sox. Here talking about security and also the complications and challenges but the mega-opportunities around what digital and fan experiences are with the physical product like baseball, encapsulates kind of the digital revolution that's happening. So keep covering it. Here in Miami, I'm John Furrier. We'll be right back after this short break. (techno music)

(light airy music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase, AI and machine learning. "Top Startups Building Generative AI on AWS." This is season three, episode one of the ongoing series covering the exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem, talking about AI machine learning. We have three great guests Bratin Saha, VP, Vice President of Machine Learning and AI Services at Amazon Web Services. Tom Mason, the CTO of Stability AI, and Aidan Gomez, CEO and co-founder of Cohere. Two practitioners doing startups and AWS. Gentlemen, thank you for opening up this session, this episode. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> So the topic is hype versus reality. So I think we're all on the reality is great, hype is great, but the reality's here. I want to get into it. Generative AI's got all the momentum, it's going mainstream, it's kind of come out of the behind the ropes, it's now mainstream. We saw the success of ChatGPT, opens up everyone's eyes, but there's so much more going on. Let's jump in and get your early perspectives on what should people be talking about right now? What are you guys working on? We'll start with AWS. What's the big focus right now for you guys as you come into this market that's highly active, highly hyped up, but people see value right out of the gate? >> You know, we have been working on generative AI for some time. In fact, last year we released Code Whisperer, which is about using generative AI for software development and a number of customers are using it and getting real value out of it. So generative AI is now something that's mainstream that can be used by enterprise users. And we have also been partnering with a number of other companies. So, you know, stability.ai, we've been partnering with them a lot. We want to be partnering with other companies as well. In seeing how we do three things, you know, first is providing the most efficient infrastructure for generative AI. And that is where, you know, things like Trainium, things like Inferentia, things like SageMaker come in. And then next is the set of models and then the third is the kind of applications like Code Whisperer and so on. So, you know, it's early days yet, but clearly there's a lot of amazing capabilities that will come out and something that, you know, our customers are starting to pay a lot of attention to. >> Tom, talk about your company and what your focus is and why the Amazon Web Services relationship's important for you? >> So yeah, we're primarily committed to making incredible open source foundation models and obviously stable effusions been our kind of first big model there, which we trained all on AWS. We've been working with them over the last year and a half to develop, obviously a big cluster, and bring all that compute to training these models at scale, which has been a really successful partnership. And we're excited to take it further this year as we develop commercial strategy of the business and build out, you know, the ability for enterprise customers to come and get all the value from these models that we think they can get. So we're really excited about the future. We got hugely exciting pipeline for this year with new modalities and video models and wonderful things and trying to solve images for once and for all and get the kind of general value and value proposition correct for customers. So it's a really exciting time and very honored to be part of it. >> It's great to see some of your customers doing so well out there. Congratulations to your team. Appreciate that. Aidan, let's get into what you guys do. What does Cohere do? What are you excited about right now? >> Yeah, so Cohere builds large language models, which are the backbone of applications like ChatGPT and GPT-3. We're extremely focused on solving the issues with adoption for enterprise. So it's great that you can make a super flashy demo for consumers, but it takes a lot to actually get it into billion user products and large global enterprises. So about six months ago, we released our command models, which are some of the best that exist for large language models. And in December, we released our multilingual text understanding models and that's on over a hundred different languages and it's trained on, you know, authentic data directly from native speakers. And so we're super excited to continue pushing this into enterprise and solving those barriers for adoption, making this transformation a reality. >> Just real quick, while I got you there on the new products coming out. Where are we in the progress? People see some of the new stuff out there right now. There's so much more headroom. Can you just scope out in your mind what that looks like? Like from a headroom standpoint? Okay, we see ChatGPT. "Oh yeah, it writes my papers for me, does some homework for me." I mean okay, yawn, maybe people say that, (Aidan chuckles) people excited or people are blown away. I mean, it's helped theCUBE out, it helps me, you know, feed up a little bit from my write-ups but it's not always perfect. >> Yeah, at the moment it's like a writing assistant, right? And it's still super early in the technologies trajectory. I think it's fascinating and it's interesting but its impact is still really limited. I think in the next year, like within the next eight months, we're going to see some major changes. You've already seen the very first hints of that with stuff like Bing Chat, where you augment these dialogue models with an external knowledge base. So now the models can be kept up to date to the millisecond, right? Because they can search the web and they can see events that happened a millisecond ago. But that's still limited in the sense that when you ask the question, what can these models actually do? Well they can just write text back at you. That's the extent of what they can do. And so the real project, the real effort, that I think we're all working towards is actually taking action. So what happens when you give these models the ability to use tools, to use APIs? What can they do when they can actually affect change out in the real world, beyond just streaming text back at the user? I think that's the really exciting piece. >> Okay, so I wanted to tee that up early in the segment 'cause I want to get into the customer applications. We're seeing early adopters come in, using the technology because they have a lot of data, they have a lot of large language model opportunities and then there's a big fast follower wave coming behind it. I call that the people who are going to jump in the pool early and get into it. They might not be advanced. Can you guys share what customer applications are being used with large language and vision models today and how they're using it to transform on the early adopter side, and how is that a tell sign of what's to come? >> You know, one of the things we have been seeing both with the text models that Aidan talked about as well as the vision models that stability.ai does, Tom, is customers are really using it to change the way you interact with information. You know, one example of a customer that we have, is someone who's kind of using that to query customer conversations and ask questions like, you know, "What was the customer issue? How did we solve it?" And trying to get those kinds of insights that was previously much harder to do. And then of course software is a big area. You know, generating software, making that, you know, just deploying it in production. Those have been really big areas that we have seen customers start to do. You know, looking at documentation, like instead of you know, searching for stuff and so on, you know, you just have an interactive way, in which you can just look at the documentation for a product. You know, all of this goes to where we need to take the technology. One of which is, you know, the models have to be there but they have to work reliably in a production setting at scale, with privacy, with security, and you know, making sure all of this is happening, is going to be really key. That is what, you know, we at AWS are looking to do, which is work with partners like stability and others and in the open source and really take all of these and make them available at scale to customers, where they work reliably. >> Tom, Aidan, what's your thoughts on this? Where are customers landing on this first use cases or set of low-hanging fruit use cases or applications? >> Yeah, so I think like the first group of adopters that really found product market fit were the copywriting companies. So one great example of that is HyperWrite. Another one is Jasper. And so for Cohere, that's the tip of the iceberg, like there's a very long tail of usage from a bunch of different applications. HyperWrite is one of our customers, they help beat writer's block by drafting blog posts, emails, and marketing copy. We also have a global audio streaming platform, which is using us the power of search engine that can comb through podcast transcripts, in a bunch of different languages. Then a global apparel brand, which is using us to transform how they interact with their customers through a virtual assistant, two dozen global news outlets who are using us for news summarization. So really like, these large language models, they can be deployed all over the place into every single industry sector, language is everywhere. It's hard to think of any company on Earth that doesn't use language. So it's, very, very- >> We're doing it right now. We got the language coming in. >> Exactly. >> We'll transcribe this puppy. All right. Tom, on your side, what do you see the- >> Yeah, we're seeing some amazing applications of it and you know, I guess that's partly been, because of the growth in the open source community and some of these applications have come from there that are then triggering this secondary wave of innovation, which is coming a lot from, you know, controllability and explainability of the model. But we've got companies like, you know, Jasper, which Aidan mentioned, who are using stable diffusion for image generation in block creation, content creation. We've got Lensa, you know, which exploded, and is built on top of stable diffusion for fine tuning so people can bring themselves and their pets and you know, everything into the models. So we've now got fine tuned stable diffusion at scale, which is democratized, you know, that process, which is really fun to see your Lensa, you know, exploded. You know, I think it was the largest growing app in the App Store at one point. And lots of other examples like NightCafe and Lexica and Playground. So seeing lots of cool applications. >> So much applications, we'll probably be a customer for all you guys. We'll definitely talk after. But the challenges are there for people adopting, they want to get into what you guys see as the challenges that turn into opportunities. How do you see the customers adopting generative AI applications? For example, we have massive amounts of transcripts, timed up to all the videos. I don't even know what to do. Do I just, do I code my API there. So, everyone has this problem, every vertical has these use cases. What are the challenges for people getting into this and adopting these applications? Is it figuring out what to do first? Or is it a technical setup? Do they stand up stuff, they just go to Amazon? What do you guys see as the challenges? >> I think, you know, the first thing is coming up with where you think you're going to reimagine your customer experience by using generative AI. You know, we talked about Ada, and Tom talked about a number of these ones and you know, you pick up one or two of these, to get that robust. And then once you have them, you know, we have models and we'll have more models on AWS, these large language models that Aidan was talking about. Then you go in and start using these models and testing them out and seeing whether they fit in use case or not. In many situations, like you said, John, our customers want to say, "You know, I know you've trained these models on a lot of publicly available data, but I want to be able to customize it for my use cases. Because, you know, there's some knowledge that I have created and I want to be able to use that." And then in many cases, and I think Aidan mentioned this. You know, you need these models to be up to date. Like you can't have it staying. And in those cases, you augmented with a knowledge base, you know you have to make sure that these models are not hallucinating. And so you need to be able to do the right kind of responsible AI checks. So, you know, you start with a particular use case, and there are a lot of them. Then, you know, you can come to AWS, and then look at one of the many models we have and you know, we are going to have more models for other modalities as well. And then, you know, play around with the models. We have a playground kind of thing where you can test these models on some data and then you can probably, you will probably want to bring your own data, customize it to your own needs, do some of the testing to make sure that the model is giving the right output and then just deploy it. And you know, we have a lot of tools. >> Yeah. >> To make this easy for our customers. >> How should people think about large language models? Because do they think about it as something that they tap into with their IP or their data? Or is it a large language model that they apply into their system? Is the interface that way? What's the interaction look like? >> In many situations, you can use these models out of the box. But in typical, in most of the other situations, you will want to customize it with your own data or with your own expectations. So the typical use case would be, you know, these are models are exposed through APIs. So the typical use case would be, you know you're using these APIs a little bit for testing and getting familiar and then there will be an API that will allow you to train this model further on your data. So you use that AI, you know, make sure you augmented the knowledge base. So then you use those APIs to customize the model and then just deploy it in an application. You know, like Tom was mentioning, a number of companies that are using these models. So once you have it, then you know, you again, use an endpoint API and use it in an application. >> All right, I love the example. I want to ask Tom and Aidan, because like most my experience with Amazon Web Service in 2007, I would stand up in EC2, put my code on there, play around, if it didn't work out, I'd shut it down. Is that a similar dynamic we're going to see with the machine learning where developers just kind of log in and stand up infrastructure and play around and then have a cloud-like experience? >> So I can go first. So I mean, we obviously, with AWS working really closely with the SageMaker team, do fantastic platform there for ML training and inference. And you know, going back to your point earlier, you know, where the data is, is hugely important for companies. Many companies bringing their models to their data in AWS on-premise for them is hugely important. Having the models to be, you know, open sources, makes them explainable and transparent to the adopters of those models. So, you know, we are really excited to work with the SageMaker team over the coming year to bring companies to that platform and make the most of our models. >> Aidan, what's your take on developers? Do they just need to have a team in place, if we want to interface with you guys? Let's say, can they start learning? What do they got to do to set up? >> Yeah, so I think for Cohere, our product makes it much, much easier to people, for people to get started and start building, it solves a lot of the productionization problems. But of course with SageMaker, like Tom was saying, I think that lowers a barrier even further because it solves problems like data privacy. So I want to underline what Bratin was saying earlier around when you're fine tuning or when you're using these models, you don't want your data being incorporated into someone else's model. You don't want it being used for training elsewhere. And so the ability to solve for enterprises, that data privacy and that security guarantee has been hugely important for Cohere, and that's very easy to do through SageMaker. >> Yeah. >> But the barriers for using this technology are coming down super quickly. And so for developers, it's just becoming completely intuitive. I love this, there's this quote from Andrej Karpathy. He was saying like, "It really wasn't on my 2022 list of things to happen that English would become, you know, the most popular programming language." And so the barrier is coming down- >> Yeah. >> Super quickly and it's exciting to see. >> It's going to be awesome for all the companies here, and then we'll do more, we're probably going to see explosion of startups, already seeing that, the maps, ecosystem maps, the landscape maps are happening. So this is happening and I'm convinced it's not yesterday's chat bot, it's not yesterday's AI Ops. It's a whole another ballgame. So I have to ask you guys for the final question before we kick off the company's showcasing here. How do you guys gauge success of generative AI applications? Is there a lens to look through and say, okay, how do I see success? It could be just getting a win or is it a bigger picture? Bratin we'll start with you. How do you gauge success for generative AI? >> You know, ultimately it's about bringing business value to our customers. And making sure that those customers are able to reimagine their experiences by using generative AI. Now the way to get their ease, of course to deploy those models in a safe, effective manner, and ensuring that all of the robustness and the security guarantees and the privacy guarantees are all there. And we want to make sure that this transitions from something that's great demos to actual at scale products, which means making them work reliably all of the time not just some of the time. >> Tom, what's your gauge for success? >> Look, I think this, we're seeing a completely new form of ways to interact with data, to make data intelligent, and directly to bring in new revenue streams into business. So if businesses can use our models to leverage that and generate completely new revenue streams and ultimately bring incredible new value to their customers, then that's fantastic. And we hope we can power that revolution. >> Aidan, what's your take? >> Yeah, reiterating Bratin and Tom's point, I think that value in the enterprise and value in market is like a huge, you know, it's the goal that we're striving towards. I also think that, you know, the value to consumers and actual users and the transformation of the surface area of technology to create experiences like ChatGPT that are magical and it's the first time in human history we've been able to talk to something compelling that's not a human. I think that in itself is just extraordinary and so exciting to see. >> It really brings up a whole another category of markets. B2B, B2C, it's B2D, business to developer. Because I think this is kind of the big trend the consumers have to win. The developers coding the apps, it's a whole another sea change. Reminds me everyone use the "Moneyball" movie as example during the big data wave. Then you know, the value of data. There's a scene in "Moneyball" at the end, where Billy Beane's getting the offer from the Red Sox, then the owner says to the Red Sox, "If every team's not rebuilding their teams based upon your model, there'll be dinosaurs." I think that's the same with AI here. Every company will have to need to think about their business model and how they operate with AI. So it'll be a great run. >> Completely Agree >> It'll be a great run. >> Yeah. >> Aidan, Tom, thank you so much for sharing about your experiences at your companies and congratulations on your success and it's just the beginning. And Bratin, thanks for coming on representing AWS. And thank you, appreciate for what you do. Thank you. >> Thank you, John. Thank you, Aidan. >> Thank you John. >> Thanks so much. >> Okay, let's kick off season three, episode one. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (light airy music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We've got a great conversation featuring Arthur AI. I'm your host. I'm excited to have Adam Wenchel who's the Co-Founder and CEO. Thanks for joining us today, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks for having me on, John, looking forward to the conversation. >> I got to say, it's been an exciting world in AI or artificial intelligence. Just an explosion of interest kind of in the mainstream with the language models, which people don't really get, but they're seeing the benefits of some of the hype around OpenAI. Which kind of wakes everyone up to, "Oh, I get it now." And then of course the pessimism comes in, all the skeptics are out there. But this breakthrough in generative AI field is just awesome, it's really a shift, it's a wave. We've been calling it probably the biggest inflection point, then the others combined of what this can do from a surge standpoint, applications. I mean, all aspects of what we used to know is the computing industry, software industry, hardware, is completely going to get turbo. So we're totally obviously bullish on this thing. So, this is really interesting. So my first question is, I got to ask you, what's you guys taking? 'Cause you've been doing this, you're in it, and now all of a sudden you're at the beach where the big waves are. What's the explosion of interest is there? What are you seeing right now? >> Yeah, I mean, it's amazing, so for starters, I've been in AI for over 20 years and just seeing this amount of excitement and the growth, and like you said, the inflection point we've hit in the last six months has just been amazing. And, you know, what we're seeing is like people are getting applications into production using LLMs. I mean, really all this excitement just started a few months ago, with ChatGPT and other breakthroughs and the amount of activity and the amount of new systems that we're seeing hitting production already so soon after that is just unlike anything we've ever seen. So it's pretty awesome. And, you know, these language models are just, they could be applied in so many different business contexts and that it's just the amount of value that's being created is again, like unprecedented compared to anything. >> Adam, you know, you've been in this for a while, so it's an interesting point you're bringing up, and this is a good point. I was talking with my friend John Markoff, former New York Times journalist and he was talking about, there's been a lot of work been done on ethics. So there's been, it's not like it's new. It's like been, there's a lot of stuff that's been baking over many, many years and, you know, decades. So now everyone wakes up in the season, so I think that is a key point I want to get into some of your observations. But before we get into it, I want you to explain for the folks watching, just so we can kind of get a definition on the record. What's an LLM, what's a foundational model and what's generative ai? Can you just quickly explain the three things there? >> Yeah, absolutely. So an LLM or a large language model, it's just a large, they would imply a large language model that's been trained on a huge amount of data typically pulled from the internet. And it's a general purpose language model that can be built on top for all sorts of different things, that includes traditional NLP tasks like document classification and sentiment understanding. But the thing that's gotten people really excited is it's used for generative tasks. So, you know, asking it to summarize documents or asking it to answer questions. And these aren't new techniques, they've been around for a while, but what's changed is just this new class of models that's based on new architectures. They're just so much more capable that they've gone from sort of science projects to something that's actually incredibly useful in the real world. And there's a number of companies that are making them accessible to everyone so that you can build on top of them. So that's the other big thing is, this kind of access to these models that can power generative tasks has been democratized in the last few months and it's just opening up all these new possibilities. And then the third one you mentioned foundation models is sort of a broader term for the category that includes LLMs, but it's not just language models that are included. So we've actually seen this for a while in the computer vision world. So people have been building on top of computer vision models, pre-trained computer vision models for a while for image classification, object detection, that's something we've had customers doing for three or four years already. And so, you know, like you said, there are antecedents to like, everything that's happened, it's not entirely new, but it does feel like a step change. >> Yeah, I did ask ChatGPT to give me a riveting introduction to you and it gave me an interesting read. If we have time, I'll read it. It's kind of, it's fun, you get a kick out of it. "Ladies and gentlemen, today we're a privileged "to have Adam Wenchel, Founder of Arthur who's going to talk "about the exciting world of artificial intelligence." And then it goes on with some really riveting sentences. So if we have time, I'll share that, it's kind of funny. It was good. >> Okay. >> So anyway, this is what people see and this is why I think it's exciting 'cause I think people are going to start refactoring what they do. And I've been saying this on theCUBE now for about a couple months is that, you know, there's a scene in "Moneyball" where Billy Beane sits down with the Red Sox owner and the Red Sox owner says, "If people aren't rebuilding their teams on your model, "they're going to be dinosaurs." And it reminds me of what's happening right now. And I think everyone that I talk to in the business sphere is looking at this and they're connecting the dots and just saying, if we don't rebuild our business with this new wave, they're going to be out of business because there's so much efficiency, there's so much automation, not like DevOps automation, but like the generative tasks that will free up the intellect of people. Like just the simple things like do an intro or do this for me, write some code, write a countermeasure to a hack. I mean, this is kind of what people are doing. And you mentioned computer vision, again, another huge field where 5G things are coming on, it's going to accelerate. What do you say to people when they kind of are leaning towards that, I need to rethink my business? >> Yeah, it's 100% accurate and what's been amazing to watch the last few months is the speed at which, and the urgency that companies like Microsoft and Google or others are actually racing to, to do that rethinking of their business. And you know, those teams, those companies which are large and haven't always been the fastest moving companies are working around the clock. And the pace at which they're rolling out LLMs across their suite of products is just phenomenal to watch. And it's not just the big, the large tech companies as well, I mean, we're seeing the number of startups, like we get, every week a couple of new startups get in touch with us for help with their LLMs and you know, there's just a huge amount of venture capital flowing into it right now because everyone realizes the opportunities for transforming like legal and healthcare and content creation in all these different areas is just wide open. And so there's a massive gold rush going on right now, which is amazing. >> And the cloud scale, obviously horizontal scalability of the cloud brings us to another level. We've been seeing data infrastructure since the Hadoop days where big data was coined. Now you're seeing this kind of take fruit, now you have vertical specialization where data shines, large language models all of a set up perfectly for kind of this piece. And you know, as you mentioned, you've been doing it for a long time. Let's take a step back and I want to get into how you started the company, what drove you to start it? Because you know, as an entrepreneur you're probably saw this opportunity before other people like, "Hey, this is finally it, it's here." Can you share the origination story of what you guys came up with, how you started it, what was the motivation and take us through that origination story. >> Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned, I've been doing AI for many years. I started my career at DARPA, but it wasn't really until 2015, 2016, my previous company was acquired by Capital One. Then I started working there and shortly after I joined, I was asked to start their AI team and scale it up. And for the first time I was actually doing it, had production models that we were working with, that was at scale, right? And so there was hundreds of millions of dollars of business revenue and certainly a big group of customers who were impacted by the way these models acted. And so it got me hyper-aware of these issues of when you get models into production, it, you know. So I think people who are earlier in the AI maturity look at that as a finish line, but it's really just the beginning and there's this constant drive to make them better, make sure they're not degrading, make sure you can explain what they're doing, if they're impacting people, making sure they're not biased. And so at that time, there really weren't any tools to exist to do this, there wasn't open source, there wasn't anything. And so after a few years there, I really started talking to other people in the industry and there was a really clear theme that this needed to be addressed. And so, I joined with my Co-Founder John Dickerson, who was on the faculty in University of Maryland and he'd been doing a lot of research in these areas. And so we ended up joining up together and starting Arthur. >> Awesome. Well, let's get into what you guys do. Can you explain the value proposition? What are people using you for now? Where's the action? What's the customers look like? What do prospects look like? Obviously you mentioned production, this has been the theme. It's not like people woke up one day and said, "Hey, I'm going to put stuff into production." This has kind of been happening. There's been companies that have been doing this at scale and then yet there's a whole follower model coming on mainstream enterprise and businesses. So there's kind of the early adopters are there now in production. What do you guys do? I mean, 'cause I think about just driving the car off the lot is not, you got to manage operations. I mean, that's a big thing. So what do you guys do? Talk about the value proposition and how you guys make money? >> Yeah, so what we do is, listen, when you go to validate ahead of deploying these models in production, starts at that point, right? So you want to make sure that if you're going to be upgrading a model, if you're going to replacing one that's currently in production, that you've proven that it's going to perform well, that it's going to be perform ethically and that you can explain what it's doing. And then when you launch it into production, traditionally data scientists would spend 25, 30% of their time just manually checking in on their model day-to-day babysitting as we call it, just to make sure that the data hasn't drifted, the model performance hasn't degraded, that a programmer did make a change in an upstream data system. You know, there's all sorts of reasons why the world changes and that can have a real adverse effect on these models. And so what we do is bring the same kind of automation that you have for other kinds of, let's say infrastructure monitoring, application monitoring, we bring that to your AI systems. And that way if there ever is an issue, it's not like weeks or months till you find it and you find it before it has an effect on your P&L and your balance sheet, which is too often before they had tools like Arthur, that was the way they were detected. >> You know, I was talking to Swami at Amazon who I've known for a long time for 13 years and been on theCUBE multiple times and you know, I watched Amazon try to pick up that sting with stage maker about six years ago and so much has happened since then. And he and I were talking about this wave, and I kind of brought up this analogy to how when cloud started, it was, Hey, I don't need a data center. 'Cause when I did my startup that time when Amazon, one of my startups at that time, my choice was put a box in the colo, get all the configuration before I could write over the line of code. So the cloud became the benefit for that and you can stand up stuff quickly and then it grew from there. Here it's kind of the same dynamic, you don't want to have to provision a large language model or do all this heavy lifting. So that seeing companies coming out there saying, you can get started faster, there's like a new way to get it going. So it's kind of like the same vibe of limiting that heavy lifting. >> Absolutely. >> How do you look at that because this seems to be a wave that's going to be coming in and how do you guys help companies who are going to move quickly and start developing? >> Yeah, so I think in the race to this kind of gold rush mentality, race to get these models into production, there's starting to see more sort of examples and evidence that there are a lot of risks that go along with it. Either your model says things, your system says things that are just wrong, you know, whether it's hallucination or just making things up, there's lots of examples. If you go on Twitter and the news, you can read about those, as well as sort of times when there could be toxic content coming out of things like that. And so there's a lot of risks there that you need to think about and be thoughtful about when you're deploying these systems. But you know, you need to balance that with the business imperative of getting these things into production and really transforming your business. And so that's where we help people, we say go ahead, put them in production, but just make sure you have the right guardrails in place so that you can do it in a smart way that's going to reflect well on you and your company. >> Let's frame the challenge for the companies now that you have, obviously there's the people who doing large scale production and then you have companies maybe like as small as us who have large linguistic databases or transcripts for example, right? So what are customers doing and why are they deploying AI right now? And is it a speed game, is it a cost game? Why have some companies been able to deploy AI at such faster rates than others? And what's a best practice to onboard new customers? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, we're seeing across a bunch of different verticals, there are leaders who have really kind of started to solve this puzzle about getting AI models into production quickly and being able to iterate on them quickly. And I think those are the ones that realize that imperative that you mentioned earlier about how transformational this technology is. And you know, a lot of times, even like the CEOs or the boards are very personally kind of driving this sense of urgency around it. And so, you know, that creates a lot of movement, right? And so those companies have put in place really smart infrastructure and rails so that people can, data scientists aren't encumbered by having to like hunt down data, get access to it. They're not encumbered by having to stand up new platforms every time they want to deploy an AI system, but that stuff is already in place. There's a really nice ecosystem of products out there, including Arthur, that you can tap into. Compared to five or six years ago when I was building at a top 10 US bank, at that point you really had to build almost everything yourself and that's not the case now. And so it's really nice to have things like, you know, you mentioned AWS SageMaker and a whole host of other tools that can really accelerate things. >> What's your profile customer? Is it someone who already has a team or can people who are learning just dial into the service? What's the persona? What's the pitch, if you will, how do you align with that customer value proposition? Do people have to be built out with a team and in play or is it pre-production or can you start with people who are just getting going? >> Yeah, people do start using it pre-production for validation, but I think a lot of our customers do have a team going and they're starting to put, either close to putting something into production or about to, it's everything from large enterprises that have really sort of complicated, they have dozens of models running all over doing all sorts of use cases to tech startups that are very focused on a single problem, but that's like the lifeblood of the company and so they need to guarantee that it works well. And you know, we make it really easy to get started, especially if you're using one of the common model development platforms, you can just kind of turn key, get going and make sure that you have a nice feedback loop. So then when your models are out there, it's pointing out, areas where it's performing well, areas where it's performing less well, giving you that feedback so that you can make improvements, whether it's in training data or futurization work or algorithm selection. There's a number of, you know, depending on the symptoms, there's a number of things you can do to increase performance over time and we help guide people on that journey. >> So Adam, I have to ask, since you have such a great customer base and they're smart and they got teams and you're on the front end, I mean, early adopters is kind of an overused word, but they're killing it. They're putting stuff in the production's, not like it's a test, it's not like it's early. So as the next wave comes of fast followers, how do you see that coming online? What's your vision for that? How do you see companies that are like just waking up out of the frozen, you know, freeze of like old IT to like, okay, they got cloud, but they're not yet there. What do you see in the market? I see you're in the front end now with the top people really nailing AI and working hard. What's the- >> Yeah, I think a lot of these tools are becoming, or every year they get easier, more accessible, easier to use. And so, you know, even for that kind of like, as the market broadens, it takes less and less of a lift to put these systems in place. And the thing is, every business is unique, they have their own kind of data and so you can use these foundation models which have just been trained on generic data. They're a great starting point, a great accelerant, but then, in most cases you're either going to want to create a model or fine tune a model using data that's really kind of comes from your particular customers, the people you serve and so that it really reflects that and takes that into account. And so I do think that these, like the size of that market is expanding and its broadening as these tools just become easier to use and also the knowledge about how to build these systems becomes more widespread. >> Talk about your customer base you have now, what's the makeup, what size are they? Give a taste a little bit of a customer base you got there, what's they look like? I'll say Capital One, we know very well while you were at there, they were large scale, lot of data from fraud detection to all kinds of cool stuff. What do your customers now look like? >> Yeah, so we have a variety, but I would say one area we're really strong, we have several of the top 10 US banks, that's not surprising, that's a strength for us, but we also have Fortune 100 customers in healthcare, in manufacturing, in retail, in semiconductor and electronics. So what we find is like in any sort of these major verticals, there's typically, you know, one, two, three kind of companies that are really leading the charge and are the ones that, you know, in our opinion, those are the ones that for the next multiple decades are going to be the leaders, the ones that really kind of lead the charge on this AI transformation. And so we're very fortunate to be working with some of those. And then we have a number of startups as well who we love working with just because they're really pushing the boundaries technologically and so they provide great feedback and make sure that we're continuing to innovate and staying abreast of everything that's going on. >> You know, these early markups, even when the hyperscalers were coming online, they had to build everything themselves. That's the new, they're like the alphas out there building it. This is going to be a big wave again as that fast follower comes in. And so when you look at the scale, what advice would you give folks out there right now who want to tee it up and what's your secret sauce that will help them get there? >> Yeah, I think that the secret to teeing it up is just dive in and start like the, I think these are, there's not really a secret. I think it's amazing how accessible these are. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to access LLMs either via either API access or downloadable in some cases. And so, you know, go ahead and get started. And then our secret sauce really is the way that we provide that performance analysis of what's going on, right? So we can tell you in a very actionable way, like, hey, here's where your model is doing good things, here's where it's doing bad things. Here's something you want to take a look at, here's some potential remedies for it. We can help guide you through that. And that way when you're putting it out there, A, you're avoiding a lot of the common pitfalls that people see and B, you're able to really kind of make it better in a much faster way with that tight feedback loop. >> It's interesting, we've been kind of riffing on this supercloud idea because it was just different name than multicloud and you see apps like Snowflake built on top of AWS without even spending any CapEx, you just ride that cloud wave. This next AI, super AI wave is coming. I don't want to call AIOps because I think there's a different distinction. If you, MLOps and AIOps seem a little bit old, almost a few years back, how do you view that because everyone's is like, "Is this AIOps?" And like, "No, not kind of, but not really." How would you, you know, when someone says, just shoots off the hip, "Hey Adam, aren't you doing AIOps?" Do you say, yes we are, do you say, yes, but we do differently because it's doesn't seem like it's the same old AIOps. What's your- >> Yeah, it's a good question. AIOps has been a term that was co-opted for other things and MLOps also has people have used it for different meanings. So I like the term just AI infrastructure, I think it kind of like describes it really well and succinctly. >> But you guys are doing the ops. I mean that's the kind of ironic thing, it's like the next level, it's like NextGen ops, but it's not, you don't want to be put in that bucket. >> Yeah, no, it's very operationally focused platform that we have, I mean, it fires alerts, people can action off them. If you're familiar with like the way people run security operations centers or network operations centers, we do that for data science, right? So think of it as a DSOC, a Data Science Operations Center where all your models, you might have hundreds of models running across your organization, you may have five, but as problems are detected, alerts can be fired and you can actually work the case, make sure they're resolved, escalate them as necessary. And so there is a very strong operational aspect to it, you're right. >> You know, one of the things I think is interesting is, is that, if you don't mind commenting on it, is that the aspect of scale is huge and it feels like that was made up and now you have scale and production. What's your reaction to that when people say, how does scale impact this? >> Yeah, scale is huge for some of, you know, I think, I think look, the highest leverage business areas to apply these to, are generally going to be the ones at the biggest scale, right? And I think that's one of the advantages we have. Several of us come from enterprise backgrounds and we're used to doing things enterprise grade at scale and so, you know, we're seeing more and more companies, I think they started out deploying AI and sort of, you know, important but not necessarily like the crown jewel area of their business, but now they're deploying AI right in the heart of things and yeah, the scale that some of our companies are operating at is pretty impressive. >> John: Well, super exciting, great to have you on and congratulations. I got a final question for you, just random. What are you most excited about right now? Because I mean, you got to be pretty pumped right now with the way the world is going and again, I think this is just the beginning. What's your personal view? How do you feel right now? >> Yeah, the thing I'm really excited about for the next couple years now, you touched on it a little bit earlier, but is a sort of convergence of AI and AI systems with sort of turning into AI native businesses. And so, as you sort of do more, get good further along this transformation curve with AI, it turns out that like the better the performance of your AI systems, the better the performance of your business. Because these models are really starting to underpin all these key areas that cumulatively drive your P&L. And so one of the things that we work a lot with our customers is to do is just understand, you know, take these really esoteric data science notions and performance and tie them to all their business KPIs so that way you really are, it's kind of like the operating system for running your AI native business. And we're starting to see more and more companies get farther along that maturity curve and starting to think that way, which is really exciting. >> I love the AI native. I haven't heard any startup yet say AI first, although we kind of use the term, but I guarantee that's going to come in all the pitch decks, we're an AI first company, it's going to be great run. Adam, congratulations on your success to you and the team. Hey, if we do a few more interviews, we'll get the linguistics down. We can have bots just interact with you directly and ask you, have an interview directly. >> That sounds good, I'm going to go hang out on the beach, right? So, sounds good. >> Thanks for coming on, really appreciate the conversation. Super exciting, really important area and you guys doing great work. Thanks for coming on. >> Adam: Yeah, thanks John. >> Again, this is Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto, AI going next gen. This is legit, this is going to a whole nother level that's going to open up huge opportunities for startups, that's going to use opportunities for investors and the value to the users and the experience will come in, in ways I think no one will ever see. So keep an eye out for more coverage on siliconangle.com and theCUBE.net, thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

>> TheCUBE presents Ignite 22 brought to you by Palo Alto Networks. >> Welcome back to Las Vegas, everyone. We're glad you're with us. This is theCUBE live at Palo Alto Ignite 22 at the MGM Grant in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante, day one of our coverage. We've had great conversations. The cybersecurity landscape is so interesting Dave, it's such a challenging problem to solve but it's so diverse and dynamic at the same time. >> You know, Lisa theCUBE started in May of 2010 in Boston. We called it the chowder event, chowder and Lobster. It was a EMC world, 2010. BJ Jenkins, who's here, of course, was a longtime friend of theCUBE and made the, made the transition into from, well, it's still data, data to, to cyber. So >> True. And BJ is back with us. BJ Jenkins, president Palo Alto Networks great to have you back on theCUBE. >> It is great to be here in person on theCube >> Isn't it great? >> In Vegas. It's awesome. >> And we can tell by your voice will be, will be gentle. You, you've been in Vegas typical Vegas occupational hazard of losing the voice. >> Yeah. It was one of the benefits of Covid. I didn't lose my voice at home sitting talking to a TV. You lose it when you come to Vegas. >> Exactly. >> But it's a small price to pay. >> So things kick off yesterday with the partner summit. You had a keynote then, you had a customer, a CISO on stage. You had a keynote today, which we didn't get to see. But talk to us a little bit about the lay of the land. What are you hearing from CISOs, from CIOs as we know security is a board level conversation. >> Yeah, I, you know it's been an interesting three or four months here. Let me start with that. I think, cybersecurity in general is still front and center on CIOs and CISO's minds. It has to be, if you saw Wendy's presentation today and the threats out there companies have to have it front and center. I do think it's been interesting though with the macro uncertainty. We've taken to calling this year the revenge of the CFO and you know these deals in cybersecurity are still a top priority but they're getting finance and procurements, scrutiny which I think in this environment is a necessity but it's still a, you know, number one number two imperative no matter who you talked to, in my mind >> It was interesting what Nikesh was saying in the last conference call that, hey we just have to get more approvals. We know this. We're, we're bringing more go-to-market people on board. We, we have, we're filling the pipeline 'cause we know they're going to split up deals big deals go into smaller chunks. So the question I have for you is is how are you able to successfully integrate those people so that you can get ahead of that sort of macro transition? >> Yeah I, you know, I think there's two things I'd say about uncertain macro situations and Dave, you know how old I am. I'm pretty old. I've been through a lot of cycles. And in those cycles I've always found stronger companies with stronger value proposition separate themselves actually in uncertain, economic times. And so I think there's actually an opportunity here. The message tilts a little bit though where it's been about innovation and new threat vectors to one of you have 20, 30, 40 vendors you can consolidate become more effective in your security posture and save money on your TCOs. So one of the things as we bring people on board it's training them on that business value proposition. How do you take a customer who's got 20 or 30 tools take 'em down to 5 or 10 where Palo is more central and strategic and be able to demonstrate that value. So we do that through, we're making a huge investment in our people but macroeconomic times also puts some stronger people back on the market and we're able to incorporate them into the business. >> What are the conditions that are necessary for that consolidation? Like I would imagine if you're, if you're a big customer of a big, you know, competitor of yours that that migration is going to be harder than if you're dealing with lots of little point tools. Do those, do those point tools, are they sort of is it the end of the subscription? Is it just stuff that's off the books now? What's, the condition that is ripe for that kind of consolidation? >> Look, I think the challenge coming into this year was skills. And so customers had all of these point products. It required a lot more human intervention as Nikesh was talking about to integrate them or make them work. And as all of us know finding people with cybersecurity skills over the last 12 months has been incredibly hard. That drove, if you know, if you think about that a CIO and a CISO sitting there going, I have all all this investment in tools. I don't have the people to operate 'em. What do I need to do? What we tried to do is elevate that conversation because in a customer, everybody who's bought one of those, they they bought it to solve a problem. And there's people with affinity for that tool. They're not just going to say I want to get consolidated and give up my tool. They're going to wrap their arms around it. And so what we needed to do and this changed our ecosystem strategy too how we leverage partners. We needed to get into the CIO and CISO and say look at this chaos you have here and the challenges around people that it's, it's presenting you. We can help solve that by, by standardizing, consolidating taking that integration away from you as Nikesh talked about, and making it easier for your your high skill people to work on high skill, you know high challenges in there. >> Let chaos reign, and then reign in the chaos. >> Yes. >> Andy Grove. >> I was looking at some stats that there's 26 million developers but less than 3 million cybersecurity professionals. >> Talked about that skills gap and what CISOs and CIOs are facing is do you consider from a value prop perspective Palo Alto Networks to be a, a facilitator of helping organizations deal with that skills gap? >> I think there's a short term and a long term. I think Nikesh today talked about the long term that we'll never win this battle with human beings. We're going to have to win it with automation. That, that's the long term the short term right here and now is that people need people with cybersecurity skills. Now what we're trying to do, you know, is multifaceted. We work with universities to standardize programs to develop skills that people can come into the marketplace with. We run our own programs inside the company. We have a cloud academy program now where we take people high aptitude for sales and technical aptitude and we will put them through a six month boot camp on cloud and they'll come out of that ready to really work with the leading experts in cloud security. The third angle is partners, right, there are partners in the marketplace who want to drive their business into high services areas. They have people, they know how to train. We give them, we partner with them to give them training. Hopefully that helps solve some of the short-term gaps that are out there today. >> So you made the jump from data storage to security and >> Yeah. >> You know, network security, all kinds of security. What was that like? What you must have learned a lot in the last better part of a decade? >> Yeah. >> Take us through that. >> You know, so the first jump was from EMC. I was 15 years there to be CEO of Barracuda. And you know, it was interesting because EMC was, you know large enterprise for the most part. At Barracuda we had, you know 250,000 small and mid-size enterprises. And it was, it's interesting to get into security in small and mid-size businesses because, you know Wendy today was talking about nation states. For small and mid-size business, it's common thievery right? It's ransomware, it's, and, those customers don't have, you know, the human and financial resources to keep up with the threat factor. So, you know, Nikesh talked about how it's taken 'em four and a half years to get into cybersecurity. I remember my first week at Barracuda, I was talking with a customer who had, you know, breached data shut down. There wasn't much bitcoin back then so it was just a pure ransom. And I'm like, wow, this is, you know, incredible industry. So it's been a good, you know, transition for me. I still think data is at the heart of all of this. Right? And I have always believed there's a strong connection between the things I learned growing up at EMC and what I put into practice today at Palo Alto Networks. >> And how about a culture because I, you know I know have observed the EMC culture >> Yeah. >> And you were there in really the heyday. >> Yeah. >> Right? Which was an awesome place. And it seems like Palo Alto obviously, different times but you know, similar like laser focus on solving problems, you know, obviously great, you know value sellers, you know, you guys aren't the commodity >> Yeah. For Product. But there seemed to be some similarities from afar. I don't know Palo Alto as well as I know EMC. >> I think there's a lot. When I joined EMC, it was about, it was 2 billion in in revenue and I think when I left it was over 20, 20, 21. And, you know, we're at, you know hopefully 5, 5 5 in revenue. I feel like it's this very similar, there's a sense of urgency, there's an incredible focus on the customer. you know, Near and Moche are definitely different individuals but the both same kind of disruptive, Israeli force out there driving the business. There are a lot of similarities. I, you know, the passion, I feel privileged as a, you know go to market person that I have this incredible portfolio to go, you know, work with customers on. It's a lucky position to be in, but very I feel like it is a movie I've seen before. >> Yeah. And but, and the course, the challenges from the, the target that you're disrupting is different. It was, you know, EMC had a lot of big, you know IBM obviously was, you know, bigger target whereas you got thousands of, you know, smaller companies. >> Yes. >> And, and so that's a different dynamic but that's why the consolidation play is so important. >> Look at, that's why I joined Palo Alto Networks when I was at Barracuda for nine years. It just fascinated me, that there was 3000 plus players in security and why didn't security evolve like the storage market did or the server market or network where working >> Yeah, right. >> You know, two or three big gorillas came to, to dominate those markets. And it's, I think it's what Nikesh talked about today. There was a new problem in best of breed. It was always best of breed. You can never in security go in and, you know, say, Hey it's good I saved us some money but I got the third best product in the marketplace. And there was that kind of gap between products. I, believe in why I joined here I think this is my last gig is we have a chance to change that. And this is the first company as I look from the outside in that had best of breed as, you know Nikesh said 13 categories. >> Yeah. >> And you know, we're in the leaders quadrant and it's a conversation I have with customers. You don't have to sacrifice best of breed but get the benefits of a platform. And I, think that resonates today. I think we have a chance to change the industry from that viewpoint. >> Give us a little view of the voice of the customer. You had, was it Sabre? >> Yeah. >> That was on >> Scott Moser, The CISO from Sabre. >> Give us a view, what are you hearing from the voice of the customer? Obviously they're quite a successful customer but challenges, concerns, the partnership. >> Yeah. Look, I think security is similar to industries where we come up with magic marketing phrases and, you know, things to you know, make you want to procure our solutions. You know, zero trust is one. And you know, you'll talk to customers and they're like, okay, yes. And you know, the government, right? Joe, Joe Biden's putting out zero trust executive orders. And the, the problem is if you talk to customers, it's a journey. They have legacy infrastructure they have business drivers that you know they just don't deal with us. They've got to deal with the business side who's trying to make the money that keeps the, the company going. it's really helped them draw a map from where they're at today to zero trust or to a better security architecture. Or, you know, they're moving their apps into the cloud. How am I going to migrate? Right? Again, that discussion three years ago was around lift and shift, right? Today it's about, well, no I need cloud native developed apps to service the business the way I want to, I want to service it. How do I, so I, I think there's this element of a trusted partner and relationship. And again, I think this is why you can't have 40 or 50 of those. You got to start narrowing it down if you want to be able to meet and beat the threats that are out there for you. So I, you know, the customers, I see a lot of 'em. It's, here's where I'm at help me get here to a better position. And they know it's, you know Scott said in our keynote today, you don't just, you know have layer three firewall policies and decide, okay tomorrow I'm going to go to layer seven. That, that's not how it works. Right? There's, and, and by the way these things are a mission critical type areas. So there's got to be a game plan that you help customers go through to get there. >> Definitely. Last question, my last question for you is, is security being a board level conversation I was reading some stats from a survey I think it was the what's new in Cypress survey that that Palo Alto released today that showed that while significant numbers of organizations think they've got a cyber resiliency playbook, there's a lot of disconnect or lack of alignment at the boardroom. Are you in those conversations? How can you help facilitate that alignment between the executive team and the board when it comes to security being so foundational to any business? >> Yeah, it's, I've been on three, four public company boards. I'm on, I'm on two today. I would say four years ago, this was a almost a taboo topic. It was a, put your head in the sand and pray to God nothing happened. And you know, the world has changed significantly. And because of the number of breaches the impact it's had on brand, boards have to think about this in duty of care and their fiduciary duty. Okay. So then you start with a board that may not have the technical skills. The first problem the security industry had is how do I explain your risk profile in a way you can understand it. I'm, I'm on the board of Generac that makes home generators. It's a manufacturing, you know, company but they put Wifi modules in their boxes so that the dealers could help do the maintenance on 'em. And all of a sudden these things were getting attacked. Right? And they're being used for bot attacks. >> Yeah. >> Everybody on their board had a manufacturing background. >> Ah. >> So how do you help that board understand the risk they have that's what's changed over the last four years. It's a constant discussion. It's one I have with CISOs where they're like help us put it in layman's terms so they understand they know what we're doing and they feel confident but at the same time understand the marketplace better. And that's a journey for us. >> That Generac example is a great one because, you know, think about IOT Technologies. They've historically been air gaped >> Yes. >> By design. And all of a sudden the business comes in and says, "Hey we can put wifi in there", you know >> Connect it to a home Wifi system that >> Make our lives so much easier. Next thing you know, it's being used to attack. >> Yeah. >> So that's why, as you go around the world are you discerning, I know you were just in Japan are you discerning significant differences in sort of attitudes toward, towards cyber? Whether it's public policy, you know things like regulation where you, they don't want you sharing data, but as as a cyber company, you want to share that data with you know, public and private? >> Look it, I, I think around the world we see incredible government activity first of all. And I think given the position we're in we get to have some unique conversations there. I would say worldwide security is an imperative. I, no matter where I go, you know it's in front of everybody's mind. The, on the, the governance side, it's really what do we need to adapt to make sure we meet local regulations. And I, and I would just tell you Dave there's ways when you do that, and we talk with governments that because of how they want to do it reduce our ability to give them full insight into all the threats and how we can help them. And I do think over time governments understand that we can anonymize the data. There's, but that, that's a work in process. Definitely there is a balance. We need to have privacy, we need to have, you know personal security for people. But there's ways to collect that data in an anonymous way and give better security insight back into the architectures that are out there. >> All right. A little shift the gears here. A little sports question. We've had some great Boston's sports guests on theCUBE right? I mean, Randy Seidel, we were talking about him. Peter McKay, Snyk, I guess he's a competitor now but you know, there's no question got >> He got a little funding today. I saw that. >> Down round. But they still got a lot of money. Not of a down round, but they were, but yeah, but actually, you know, he was on several years ago and it was around the time they were talking about trading Brady. He said Never trade Brady. And he got that right. We, I think we can agree Brady's the goat. >> Yes. >> The big question I have for you is, Belichick. Do you ever question Has your belief in him as the greatest coach of all time wavered, you know, now that- No. Okay. >> Never. >> Weigh in on that. >> Never, he says >> Still the Goat. >> I'll give you my best. You know, never In Bill we trust. >> Okay. Still. >> All right >> I, you know, the NFL is a unique property that's designed for parody and is designed, I mean actively designed to not let Mr. Craft and Bill Belichick do what they do every year. I feel privileged as a Boston sports fan that in our worst years we're in the seventh playoff spot. And I have a lot of family in Chicago who would kill for that position, by the way. And you know, they're in perpetual rebuilding. And so look, and I think he, you know the way he's been able to manage the cap and the skill levels, I think we have a top five defense. There's different ways to win titles. And if I, you know, remember in Brady's last title with Boston, the defense won us that Super Bowl. >> Well thanks for weighing in on that because there's a lot of crazy talk going on. Like, 'Hey, if he doesn't beat Arizona, he's got to go.' I'm like, what? So, okay, I'm sometimes it takes a good good loyal fan who's maybe, you know, has >> The good news in Boston is we're emotional fans too so I understand you got to keep the long term long term in mind. And we're, we're in a privileged position in Boston. We've got Celtics, we've got Bruins we've got the Patriots right on the edge of the playoffs and we need the Red Sox to get to work. >> Yeah, no, you know they were last, last year so maybe they're going to win it all like they usually do. So >> Fingers crossed. >> Crazy worst to first. >> Exactly. Well you said, in Bill we trust it sounds like from our conversation in BJ we trust from the customers, the partners. >> I hope so. >> Thank you so much BJ, for coming back on theCUBE giving us the lay of the land, what's new, the voice of the customer and how Palo Alto was really differentiated in the market. We always appreciate your, coming on the show you >> Honor and privilege seeing you here. Thanks. >> You may be thinking that you were watching ESPN just now but you know, we call ourselves the ESPN at Tech News. This is Lisa Martin for Dave Vellante and our guest. You're watching theCUBE, the Leader and live emerging in enterprise tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back to the aria in Las Vegas, Dave Valante with Dave Nicholson, Falcon 22, the Cube's continuous coverage. Sean Henry is here. He's the president of the services division and he's the chief security officer at CrowdStrike. And he's joined by Kevin mania, CEO of Mandy. Now part of Google Jens. Welcome to the cube. Thank you. Congrats on closing the Google deal. Thank you. That's great. New chapter, >>New >>Chapter coming fresh off the keynote, you and George. I really en enjoyed that. Let's start there. One of the things you talked about was the changes you've been, you've been in this business for a while. I think you were talking about, you know, doing some of these early stuff in the nineties. Wow. Things have changed a lot the queen, right? Right. You used to put the perimeter around the queen. Yeah. Build the Mo the Queen's left or castle new ballgame. But you were talking about the board level knowledge of security in the organization. Talk about that change. That's occurred in the last >>Decade. You know, boards are all about governance, right? Making sure everybody's doing the right things. And they've kind of had a haul pass on cybersecurity for a long time. Like we expect them to be great at financial diligence, they understand the financials of an organization. You're gonna see a maturity, I think in cybersecurity where I think board members all know, Hey, there's risk out there. And we're on our own to kind of defend ourselves from it, but they don't know how to quantify it. And they don't know how to express it. So bottom line boards are interested in cyber and we just have to mature as an industry to give them the tools they need to measure it appropriately. >>Sean, one of the things I wanted to ask you. So Steven Schmidt, I noticed changed his title from CISOs chief inf information security officer, the chief security officer. Your title is chief security officer. Is that a nuance that has meaning to you or is it just less acronym? >>It depends on the organization that you're in, in our organization, the chief security officer owns all risks. So I have a CISO that comes underneath me. Yep. And I've got a security folks that are handling our facilities, our personnel, those sorts of things, all, all of our offices around the globe. So it's all things security. One of the things that we've found and Kevin and I were actually talking about this earlier is this intersection between the physical world and the virtual world. And if you've got adversaries that want gain access to your organization, they might do it remotely by trying to hack into your network. But they also might try to get one of your employees to take an action on their behalf, or they might try to get somebody hired into your company to take some nefarious acts. So from a security perspective, it's about building an envelope around all things valuable and then working it in a collaborative way. So there's a lot of interface, a lot of interaction and a lot of value in putting those things together. And, >>And you're also president of the services division. Is that a P and L role or >>It is, we have a it's P P O P and L. And we have an entire organization that's doing incident response and it's a lot of the work that we're doing with, with Kevin's folks now. So I've got both of those hats today. >>Okay. So self-funded so in a way, okay. Where are companies most at risk today? >>Huh? You wanna go on that one first? Sean, you talk fast than me. So it's bigger bang for the buck. If >>You >>Talk, you know, when I, when I think about, about companies in terms of, of their risk, it's a lot of it has to do with the expansion of the network. Companies are adding new applications, new devices, they're expanding into new areas. There are new technologies that are being developed every day and that are being embraced every day. And all of those technologies, all of those applications, all of that hardware is susceptible to attack. Adversaries are looking for the vulnerabilities they can exploit. And I think just kind of that sprawl is something that is, is disconcerting to me from a security perspective, we need to know where our assets are, where the vulnerabilities lie, how do we plug the holes? And having that visibility is really critical to ensure that you're you're in, involved in mitigating that, that new architecture, >>Anything you >>Did. Yeah. I would like when I, so I can just tell you what I'm hearing from CISOs out there. They're worried about identity, the lateral movement. That's been kind of part of every impactful breach. So in identity's kind of top three of mind, I would say zero trust, whatever that means. And we all have our own definitions of migration to zero trust and supply chain risk. You know, whether they're the supplier, they wanna make sure they can prove to their customers, they have great security practices. Or if they're a consumer of a supply chain, you need to understand who's in their supply chain. What are their dependencies? How secure are they? Those are just three topics that come up all the time. >>As we extend, you know, talking about XDR the X being extend. Do you see physical security as something that's being extended into? Or is it, or is it already kind of readily accepted that physical security goes hand in hand with information security? >>I, I don't think a lot of people think that way there certainly are some and Dave mentions Amazon and Steve Schmidt as a CSO, right? There's a CSO that works for him as well. CJ's clear integration. There's an intelligence component to that. And I think that there are certain organizations that are starting to recognize and understand that when we say there's no real perimeter, it, it expands the network expands into the physical space. And if you're not protecting that, you know, if you don't protect the, the server room and somebody can actually walk in the doors unlocked, you've got a vulnerability that might be exploited. So I think to, to recognize the value of that integration from a security perspective, to be holistic and for organizations to adopt a security first philosophy that all the employees recognize they're, they're the, the first line of defense. Oftentimes not just from a fish, but by somebody catching up with them and handing 'em a thumb drive, Hey, can you take a look at this document? For me, that's a potential vulnerability as well. So those things need to be integrated. >>I thought the most interesting part of the keynote this morning is when George asked you about election security and you immediately went to the election infrastructure. I was like, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But then I was so happy to hear you. You went to the disinformation, I learned something there about your monitoring, the network effects. Sure. And, and actually there's a career stream around that. Right. The reason I had so years ago I interviewed was like, this was 2016, Robert Gates. Okay. Former defense. And I, I said, yeah, but don't we have the best cyber can't we go on the offense. He said, wait a minute, we have the most to lose. Right. But, but you gave an example where you can identify the bots. Like let's say there's disinformation out there. You could actually use bots in a positive way to disseminate the, the truth in theory. Good. Is, is that something that's actually happening >>Out there? Well, I think we're all still learning. You know, you can have deep fakes, both audible files or visual files, right. And images. And there's no question. The next generation, you do have to professionalize the news that you consume. And we're probably gonna have to professionalize the other side critical thinking because we are a marketplace of ideas in an open society. And it's hard to tell where's the line between someone's opinion and intentional deception, you know, and sometimes it could be the source, a foreign threat, trying to influence the hearts and minds of citizens, but there's gonna be an internal threat or domestic threat as well to people that have certain ideas and concepts that they're zealots about. >>Is it enough to, is it enough to simply expose where the information is coming from? Because, you know, look, I, I could make the case that the red Sox, right. Or a horrible baseball team, and you should never go to Fenway >>And your Yankees Jersey. >>Right. Right. So is that disinformation, is that misinformation? He'd say yes. Someone else would say no, but it would be good to know that a thousand bots from some troll farm, right. Are behind us. >>There's, it's helpful to know if something can be tied to identity or is totally anonymous. Start just there. Yeah. Yeah. You can still protect the identity over time. I think all of us, if you're gonna trust the source, you actually know the source. Right. So I do believe, and, and by the way, much longer conversation about anonymity versus privacy and then trust, right. And all three, you could spend this whole interview on, but we have to have a trustworthy internet as well. And that's not just in the tech and the security of it, but over time it could very well be how we're being manipulated as citizens and people. >>When you guys talk to customers and, and peers, when somebody gets breached, what's the number one thing that you hear that they wished they'd done that they didn't. >>I think we talked about this earlier, and I think identity is something that we're talking about here. How are you, how are you protecting your assets? How do you know who's authorized to have access? How do you contain the, the access that they have? And the, the area we see with, with these malware free attacks, where adversaries are using the existing capabilities, the operating system to move laterally through the network. I mean, Kevin's folks, my folks, when we respond to an incident, it's about looking at that lateral movement to try and get a full understanding of where the adversary's been, where they're going, what they're doing, and to try to, to find a root cause analysis. And it really is a, a critical part. >>So part of the reason I was asking you about, was it a P and L cuz you, you wear two hats, right? You've got revenue generation on one side and then you've got you protect, you know, the company and you've got peer relationships. So the reason I bring this up is I felt like when stucks net occurred, there was a lot of lip service around, Hey, we, as an industry are gonna work together. And then what you saw was a lot of attempts to monetize, you know, private data, sell private reports and things of that nature you were referencing today, Kevin, that you think the industry's doing a much better job of, of collaboration. Is it, can you talk about that and maybe give some examples? >>Absolutely. I mean, you know, I lived through it as a victim of a breach couple years ago. If you see something new and novel, I, I just can't imagine you getting away with keeping it a secret. I mean, I would even go, what are you doing? Harboring that if you have it, that doesn't mean you tell the whole world, you don't come on your show and say, Hey, we got something new novel, everybody panic, you start contacting the people that are most germane to fixing the problem before you tell the world. So if I see something that's new in novel, certainly con Sean and the team at CrowdStrike saying, Hey, there's because they protect so many endpoints and they defend nations and you gotta get to Microsoft. You have to talk to pan. You have to get to the companies that have a large capability to do shields up. And I think you do that immediately. You can't sit on new and novel. You get to the vendor where the vulnerability is, all these things have to happen at a great rate to speak. >>So you guys probably won't comment, but I'm betting dollars to donuts. This Uber lapses hack you guys knew about. >>I turned to you. >>No comment. I'm guessing. I'm guessing that the, that wasn't novel. My point being, let me, let me ask it in a more generic fashion that you can maybe comment you you're. I think you're my, my inference is we're com the industry is compressing the time between a zero day and a fix. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like dramatically. >>Yes. Oh, awareness of it and AIX. Yes. Yeah. >>Okay. Yeah. And a lot of the hacks that we see as lay people in the media you've known about for quite some time, is that fair or no, not necessarily. >>It's, you know, it's harder to handle an intrusion quietly and discreetly these days, especially with what you're up against and, and most CEOs, by the way, their intent isn't, let's handle it quietly and discreetly it's what do we do about it? And what's the right way to handle it. And they wanna inform their customers and they wanna inform people that might be impacted. I wouldn't say we know it all that far ahead of time >>And, and depends. And, and I, I think companies don't know it. Yeah. Companies don't know they've been breached for weeks or months or years in some cases. Right. Which talks about a couple things, first of all, some of the sophistication of the adversaries, but it also talks about the inability of companies to often detect this type of activity when we're brought in. It's typically very quickly after the company finds out because they recognize they've gotta take action. They've got liability, they've got brand protection. There, whole sorts of, of things they need to take care of. And we're brought in it may or may not be, become public, but >>CrowdStrike was founded on the premise that the unstoppable breach is a myth. Now that's a, that's a bold sort of vision. We're not there yet, obviously. And a and a, and a, a CSO can't, you know, accept that. Right. You've gotta always be vigilant, but is that something that is, that we're gonna actually see manifest, you know, in any, any time in the near term? I mean, thinking about the Falcon platform, you guys are users of that. I don't know if that is part of the answer, but part of it's technology, but without the cultural aspects, the people side of things, you're never gonna get there. >>I can tell you, I started Maning in 2004 at the premise security breaches are inevitable, far less marketable. Yeah. You know, stop breaches. >>So >>Yeah. I, I think you have to learn how to manage this, right? It's like healthcare, you're not gonna stop every disease, but there's a lot of things that you can do to mitigate the consequences of those things. The same thing with network security, there's a lot of actions that organizations can take to help protect them in a way that allows them to live and, and operate in a, in a, a strong position. If companies are lackadaisical that irresponsible, they don't care. Those are companies that are gonna suffer. But I think you can manage this if you're using the right technology, the right people, you've got the right philosophy security first >>In, in the culture. >>Well, I can tell you very quickly, three reasons why people think, why is there an intrusion? It should just go away. Well, wherever money goes, crime follows. We still have crime. So you're still gonna have intrusions, whether it has to be someone on the inside or faulty software and people being paid the right faulty software, you're gonna have war. That's gonna create war in the cyber domain. So information warriors are gonna try to have intrusions to get to command and control. So wherever you have command and control, you'll have a war fighter. And then wherever you have information, you have ESP Espino. So you're gonna have people trying to break in at all times. >>And, and to tie that up because everything Kevin said is absolutely right. And what he just said at the very end was people, there are human beings that are on the other side of every single attack. And think about this until you physically get physically get to the people that are doing it and stop them. Yes, this will go on forever because you can block them, but they're gonna move and you can block them again. They're gonna move their objectives. Don't change because the information you have, whether it's financial information, intellectual property, strategic military information, that's still there. They will always come at it, which is where that physical component comes in. If you're able to block well enough and they can't get you remotely, they might send somebody in. Well, >>I, in the keynote, I, I'm not kidding. I'm looking around the room and I'm thinking there's at least one person here that is here primarily to gather intelligence, to help them defeat. What's being talked about here. >>Well, you said it's, >>It's kind >>Of creepy. You said the adversary is, is very well equipped and motivated. Why do you Rob banks? Well, that's where the money is, but it's more than that. Now with state sponsored terrorism and, you know, exfiltration of state secrets, I mean, there's, it's high stake's games. You got, this >>Has become a tool of nation states in terms from a political perspective, from a military perspective, if you look at what happened with Ukraine and Russia, all the work that was done in advanced by the Russians to soften up the Ukrainians, not just collection of intelligence, not just denial of services, but then disruptive attacks to change the entire complexity of the battlefield. This, this is a, an area that's never going away. It's becoming ingrained in our lives. And it's gonna be utilized for nefarious acts for many, many decades to come. >>I mean, you're right, Sean, we're seeing the future of war right before us is, is there's. There is going to be, there is a cyber component now in war, >>I think it signals the cyber component signals the silent intention of nations period, the silent projection of power probably before you see kinetics. >>And this is where gates says we have a lot more to lose as a country. So it's hard for us to go on the offense. We have to be very careful about our offensive capabilities because >>Of one of the things that, that we do need to, to do though, is we need to define what the red lines are to adversaries. Because when you talk about human beings, you've gotta put a deterrent in place so that if the adversaries know that if you cross this line, this is what the response is going to be. It's the way things were done during nuclear proliferation, right? Right. During the cold war, here's what the actions are gonna be. It's gonna be, it's gonna be mutual destruction and you can't do it. And we didn't have a nuclear war. We're at a point now where adversaries are pushing the envelope constantly, where they're turning off the lights in certain countries where they're taking actions that are, are quite detrimental to the host governments and those red lines have to be very clear, very clearly defined and acted upon if they're >>Crossed as security experts. Can you always tie that signature back to say a particular country or a particular group? >>Absolutely. 100% every >>Time I know. Yeah. No, it it's. It's a great question. You, you need to get attribution right. To get to deterrence, right. And without attribution, where do you proportionate respond to whatever act you're responding to? So attribution's critical. Both our companies work hard at doing it and it, and that's why I think you're not gonna see too many false flag operations in cyberspace, but when you do and they're well crafted or one nation masquerades is another, it, it, it's one of the last rules of the playground I haven't seen broken yet. And that that'll be an unfortunate day. >>Yeah. Because that mutually assure destruction, a death spot like Putin can say, well, it wasn't wasn't me. Right. So, and ironically, >>It's human intelligence, right. That ultimately is gonna be the only way to uncover >>That human intelligence is a big component. >>For sure. Right. And, and David, like when you go back to, you were referring to Robert Gates, it's the asymmetry of cyberspace, right? One person in one nation. That's not a control by asset could still do an act. And it, it just adds to the complexity of, we have attribution it's from that nation, but was it in order? Was it done on behalf of that nation? Very complicated. >>So this is an industry of superheroes. Thank you guys for all you do and appreciate you coming on the cube. Wow. >>I love your Cape. >>Thank all right. Keep it right there. Dave Nicholson and Dave ante be right back from Falcon 22 from the area you watching the cue.

>> The rapid rise of ransomware attacks has added yet another challenge that business technology executives have to worry about these days, cloud storage, immutability, and air gaps have become a must have arrows in the quiver of organization's data protection strategies. But the important reality that practitioners have embraced is data protection, it can't be an afterthought or a bolt on it, has to be designed into the operational workflow of technology systems. The problem is, oftentimes, data protection is complicated with a variety of different products, services, software components, and storage formats, this is why object storage is moving to the forefront of data protection use cases because it's simpler and less expensive. The put data get data syntax has always been alluring, but object storage, historically, was seen as this low-cost niche solution that couldn't offer the performance required for demanding workloads, forcing customers to make hard tradeoffs between cost and performance. That has changed, the ascendancy of cloud storage generally in the S3 format specifically has catapulted object storage to become a first class citizen in a mainstream technology. Moreover, innovative companies have invested to bring object storage performance to parity with other storage formats, but cloud costs are often a barrier for many companies as the monthly cloud bill and egress fees in particular steadily climb. Welcome to Secure Storage Hot Takes, my name is Dave Vellante, and I'll be your host of the program today, where we introduce our community to Wasabi, a company that is purpose-built to solve this specific problem with what it claims to be the most cost effective and secure solution on the market. We have three segments today to dig into these issues, first up is David Friend, the well known entrepreneur who co-founded Carbonite and now Wasabi will then dig into the product with Drew Schlussel of Wasabi, and then we'll bring in the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda of the Hotchkiss School, let's get right into it. We're here with David Friend, the President and CEO and Co-founder of Wasabi, the hot storage company, David, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks Dave, nice to be here. >> Great to have you, so look, you hit a home run with Carbonite back when building a unicorn was a lot more rare than it has been in the last few years, why did you start Wasabi? >> Well, when I was still CEO of Wasabi, my genius co-founder Jeff Flowers and our chief architect came to me and said, you know, when we started this company, a state of the art disk drive was probably 500 gigabytes and now we're looking at eight terabyte, 16 terabyte, 20 terabyte, even 100 terabyte drives coming down the road and, you know, sooner or later the old architectures that were designed around these much smaller disk drives is going to run out of steam because, even though the capacities are getting bigger and bigger, the speed with which you can get data on and off of a hard drive isn't really changing all that much. And Jeff foresaw a day when the architectures sort of legacy storage like Amazon S3 and so forth was going to become very inefficient and slow. And so he came up with a new, highly parallelized architecture, and he said, I want to go off and see if I can make this work. So I said, you know, good luck go to it and they went off and spent about a year and a half in the lab, designing and testing this new storage architecture and when they got it working, I looked at the economics of this and I said, holy cow, we can sell cloud storage for a fraction of the price of Amazon, still make very good gross margins and it will be faster. So this is a whole new generation of object storage that you guys have invented. So I recruited a new CEO for Carbonite and left to found Wasabi because the market for cloud storage is almost infinite. You know, when you look at all the world's data, you know, IDC has these crazy numbers, 120 zetabytes or something like that and if you look at that as you know, the potential market size during that data, we're talking trillions of dollars, not billions and so I said, look, this is a great opportunity, if you look back 10 years, all the world's data was on-prem, if you look forward 10 years, most people agree that most of the world's data is going to live in the cloud, we're at the beginning of this migration, we've got an opportunity here to build an enormous company. >> That's very exciting. I mean, you've always been a trend spotter, and I want to get your perspectives on data protection and how it's changed. It's obviously on people's minds with all the ransomware attacks and security breaches, but thinking about your experiences and past observations, what's changed in data protection and what's driving the current very high interest in the topic? >> Well, I think, you know, from a data protection standpoint, immutability, the equivalent of the old worm tapes, but applied to cloud storage is, you know, become core to the backup strategies and disaster recovery strategies for most companies. And if you look at our partners who make backup software like Veeam, Convo, Veritas, Arcserve, and so forth, most of them are really taking advantage of mutable cloud storage as a way to protect customer data, customers backups from ransomware. So the ransomware guys are pretty clever and they, you know, they discovered early on that if someone could do a full restore from their backups, they're never going to pay a ransom. So, once they penetrate your system, they get pretty good at sort of watching how you do your backups and before they encrypt your primary data, they figure out some way to destroy or encrypt your backups as well, so that you can't do a full restore from your backups. And that's where immutability comes in. You know, in the old days you, you wrote what was called a worm tape, you know, write once read many, and those could not be overwritten or modified once they were written. And so we said, let's come up with an equivalent of that for the cloud, and it's very tricky software, you know, it involves all kinds of encryption algorithms and blockchain and this kind of stuff but, you know, the net result is if you store your backups in immutable buckets, in a product like Wasabi, you can't alter it or delete it for some period of time, so you could put a timer on it, say a year or six months or something like that, once that data is written, you know, there's no way you can go in and change it, modify it, or anything like that, including even Wasabi's engineers. >> So, David, I want to ask you about data sovereignty. It's obviously a big deal, I mean, especially for companies with the presence overseas, but what's really is any digital business these days, how should companies think about approaching data sovereignty? Is it just large firms that should be worried about this? Or should everybody be concerned? What's your point of view? >> Well, all around the world countries are imposing data sovereignty laws and if you're in the storage business, like we are, if you don't have physical data storage in-country, you're probably not going to get most of the business. You know, since Christmas we've built data centers in Toronto, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Sydney, Singapore, and I've probably forgotten one or two, but the reason we do that is twofold; one is, you know, if you're closer to the customer, you're going to get better response time, lower latency, and that's just a speed of light issue. But the bigger issue is, if you've got financial data, if you have healthcare data, if you have data relating to security, like surveillance videos, and things of that sort, most countries are saying that data has to be stored in-country, so, you can't send it across borders to some other place. And if your business operates in multiple countries, you know, dealing with data sovereignty is going to become an increasingly important problem. >> So in May of 2018, that's when the fines associated with violating GDPR went into effect and GDPR was like this main spring of privacy and data protection laws and we've seen it spawn other public policy things like the CCPA and think it continues to evolve, we see judgments in Europe against big tech and this tech lash that's in the news in the U.S. and the elimination of third party cookies, what does this all mean for data protection in the 2020s? >> Well, you know, every region and every country, you know, has their own idea about privacy, about security, about the use of even the use of metadata surrounding, you know, customer data and things of this sort. So, you know, it's getting to be increasingly complicated because GDPR, for example, imposes different standards from the kind of privacy standards that we have here in the U.S., Canada has a somewhat different set of data sovereignty issues and privacy issues so it's getting to be an increasingly complex, you know, mosaic of rules and regulations around the world and this makes it even more difficult for enterprises to run their own, you know, infrastructure because companies like Wasabi, where we have physical data centers in all kinds of different markets around the world and we've already dealt with the business of how to meet the requirements of GDPR and how to meet the requirements of some of the countries in Asia and so forth, you know, rather than an enterprise doing that just for themselves, if you running your applications or keeping your data in the cloud, you know, now a company like Wasabi with, you know, 34,000 customers, we can go to all the trouble of meeting these local requirements on behalf of our entire customer base and that's a lot more efficient and a lot more cost effective than if each individual country has to go deal with the local regulatory authorities. >> Yeah, it's compliance by design, not by chance. Okay, let's zoom out for the final question, David, thinking about the discussion that we've had around ransomware and data protection and regulations, what does it mean for a business's operational strategy and how do you think organizations will need to adapt in the coming years? >> Well, you know, I think there are a lot of forces driving companies to the cloud and, you know, and I do believe that if you come back five or 10 years from now, you're going to see majority of the world's data is going to be living in the cloud and I think storage, data storage is going to be a commodity much like electricity or bandwidth, and it's going to be done right, it will comply with the local regulations, it'll be fast, it'll be local, and there will be no strategic advantage that I can think of for somebody to stand up and run their own storage, especially considering the cost differential, you know, the most analysts think that the full, all in costs of running your own storage is in the 20 to 40 terabytes per month range, whereas, you know, if you migrate your data to the cloud, like Wasabi, you're talking probably $6 a month and so I think people are learning how to deal with the idea of an architecture that involves storing your data in the cloud, as opposed to, you know, storing your data locally. >> Wow, that's like a six X more expensive in the clouds, more than six X, all right, thank you, David,-- >> In addition to which, you know, just finding the people to babysit this kind of equipment has become nearly impossible today. >> Well, and with a focus on digital business, you don't want to be wasting your time with that kind of heavy lifting. David, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE, a great Boston entrepreneur, we've followed your career for a long time and looking forward to the future. >> Thank you. >> Okay, in a moment, Drew Schlussel will join me and we're going to dig more into product, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, keep it right there. ♪ Whoa ♪ ♪ Brenda in sales got an email ♪ ♪ Click here for a trip to Bombay ♪ ♪ It's not even called Bombay anymore ♪ ♪ But you clicked it anyway ♪ ♪ And now our data's been held hostage ♪ ♪ And now we're on sinking ship ♪ ♪ And a hacker's in our system ♪ ♪ Just 'cause Brenda wanted a trip ♪ ♪ She clicked on something stupid ♪ ♪ And our data's out of our control ♪ ♪ Into the hands of a hacker's ♪ ♪ And he's a giant asshole. ♪ ♪ He encrypted it in his basement ♪ ♪ He wants a million bucks for the key ♪ ♪ And I'm pretty sure he's 15 ♪ ♪ And still going through puberty ♪ ♪ I know you didn't mean to do us wrong ♪ ♪ But now I'm dealing with this all week long ♪ ♪ To make you all aware ♪ ♪ Of all this ransomware ♪ ♪ That is why I'm singing you this song ♪ ♪ C'mon ♪ ♪ Take it from me ♪ ♪ The director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince Nairobi ♪ ♪ 'Cuz he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ (gentle music) >> Joining me now is Drew Schlussel, who is the Senior Director of Product Marketing at Wasabi, hey Drew, good to see you again, thanks for coming back in theCUBE. >> Dave, great to be here, great to see you. >> All right, let's get into it. You know, Drew, prior to the pandemic, Zero Trust, just like kind of like digital transformation was sort of a buzzword and now it's become a real thing, almost a mandate, what's Wasabi's take on Zero Trust. >> So, absolutely right, it's been around a while and now people are paying attention, Wasabi's take is Zero Trust is a good thing. You know, there are too many places, right, where the bad guys are getting in. And, you know, I think of Zero Trust as kind of smashing laziness, right? It takes a little work, it takes some planning, but you know, done properly and using the right technologies, using the right vendors, the rewards are, of course tremendous, right? You can put to rest the fears of ransomware and having your systems compromised. >> Well, and we're going to talk about this, but there's a lot of process and thinking involved and, you know, design and your Zero Trust and you don't want to be wasting time messing with infrastructure, so we're going to talk about that, there's a lot of discussion in the industry, Drew, about immutability and air gaps, I'd like you to share Wasabi's point of view on these topics, how do you approach it and what makes Wasabi different? >> So, in terms of air gap and immutability, right, the beautiful thing about object storage, which is what we do all the time is that it makes it that much easier, right, to have a secure immutable copy of your data someplace that's easy to access and doesn't cost you an arm and a leg to get your data back. You know, we're working with some of the best, you know, partners in the industry, you know, we're working with folks like, you know, Veeam, Commvault, Arc, Marquee, MSP360, all folks who understand that you need to have multiple copies of your data, you need to have a copy stored offsite, and that copy needs to be immutable and we can talk a little bit about what immutability is and what it really means. >> You know, I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about Wasabi's solution because, sometimes people don't understand, you actually are a cloud, you're not building on other people's public clouds and this storage is the one use case where it actually makes sense to do that, tell us a little bit more about Wasabi's approach and your solution. >> Yeah, I appreciate that, so there's definitely some misconception, we are our own cloud storage service, we don't run on top of anybody else, right, it's our systems, it's our software deployed globally and we interoperate because we adhere to the S3 standard, we interoperate with practically hundreds of applications, primarily in this case, right, we're talking about backup and recovery applications and it's such a simple process, right? I mean, just about everybody who's anybody in this business protecting data has the ability now to access cloud storage and so we've made it really simple, in many cases, you'll see Wasabi as you know, listed in the primary set of available vendors and, you know, put in your private keys, make sure that your account is locked down properly using, let's say multifactor authentication, and you've got a great place to store copies of your data securely. >> I mean, we just heard from David Friend, if I did my math right, he was talking about, you know, 1/6 the cost per terabyte per month, maybe even a little better than that, how are you able to achieve such attractive economics? >> Yeah, so, you know, I can't remember how to translate my fractions into percentages, but I think we talk a lot about being 80%, right, less expensive than the hyperscalers. And you know, we talked about this at Vermont, right? There's some secret sauce there and you know, we take a different approach to how we utilize the raw capacity to the effective capacity and the fact is we're also not having to run, you know, a few hundred other services, right? We do storage, plain and simple, all day, all the time, so we don't have to worry about overhead to support, you know, up and coming other services that are perhaps, you know, going to be a loss leader, right? Customers love it, right, they see the fact that their data is growing 40, 80% year over year, they know they need to have some place to keep it secure, and, you know, folks are flocking to us in droves, in fact, we're seeing a tremendous amount of migration actually right now, multiple petabytes being brought to Wasabi because folks have figured out that they can't afford to keep going with their current hyperscaler vendor. >> And immutability is a feature of your product, right? What the feature called? Can you double-click on that a little bit? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, the term in S3 is Object Lock and what that means is your application will write an object to cloud storage, and it will define a retention period, let's say a week. And for that period, that object is immutable, untouchable, cannot be altered in any way, shape, or form, the application can't change it, the system administration can't change it, Wasabi can't change it, okay, it is truly carved in stone. And this is something that it's been around for a while, but you're seeing a huge uptick, right, in adoption and support for that feature by all the major vendors and I named off a few earlier and the best part is that with immutability comes some sense of, well, it comes with not just a sense of security, it is security. Right, when you have data that cannot be altered by anybody, even if the bad guys compromise your account, they steal your credentials, right, they can't take away the data and that's a beautiful thing, a beautiful, beautiful thing. >> And you look like an S3 bucket, is that right? >> Yeah, I mean, we're fully compatible with the S3 API, so if you're using S3 API based applications today, it's a very simple matter of just kind of redirecting where you want to store your data, beautiful thing about backup and recovery, right, that's probably the simplest application, simple being a relative term, as far as lift and shift, right? Because that just means for your next full, right, point that at Wasabi, retain your other fulls, you know, for whatever 30, 60, 90 days, and then once you've kind of made that transition from vine to vine, you know, you're often running with Wasabi. >> I talked to my open about the allure of object storage historically, you know, the simplicity of the get put syntax, but what about performance? Are you able to deliver performance that's comparable to other storage formats? >> Oh yeah, absolutely, and we've got the performance numbers on the site to back that up, but I forgot to answer something earlier, right, you said that immutability is a feature and I want to make it very clear that it is a feature but it's an API request. Okay, so when you're talking about gets and puts and so forth, you know, the comment you made earlier about being 80% more cost effective or 80% less expensive, you know, that API call, right, is typically something that the other folks charge for, right, and I think we used the metaphor earlier about the refrigerator, but I'll use a different metaphor today, right? You can think of cloud storage as a magical coffee cup, right? It gets as big as you want to store as much coffee as you want and the coffee's always warm, right? And when you want to take a sip, there's no charge, you want to, you know, pop the lid and see how much coffee is in there, no charge, and that's an important thing, because when you're talking about millions or billions of objects, and you want to get a list of those objects, or you want to get the status of the immutable settings for those objects, anywhere else it's going to cost you money to look at your data, with Wasabi, no additional charge and that's part of the thing that sets us apart. >> Excellent, so thank you for that. So, you mentioned some partners before, how do partners fit into the Wasabi story? Where do you stop? Where do they pick up? You know, what do they bring? Can you give us maybe, a paint a picture for us example, or two? >> Sure, so, again, we just do storage, right, that is our sole purpose in life is to, you know, to safely and securely store our customer's data. And so they're working with their application vendors, whether it's, you know, active archive, backup and recovery, IOT, surveillance, media and entertainment workflows, right, those systems already know how to manage the data, manage the metadata, they just need some place to keep the data that is being worked on, being stored and so forth. Right, so just like, you know, plugging in a flash drive on your laptop, right, you literally can plug in Wasabi as long as your applications support the API, getting started is incredibly easy, right, we offer a 30-day trial, one terabyte, and most folks find that within, you know, probably a few hours of their POC, right, it's giving them everything they need in terms of performance, in terms of accessibility, in terms of sovereignty, I'm guessing you talked to, you know, Dave Friend earlier about data sovereignty, right? We're global company, right, so there's got to be probably, you know, wherever you are in the world some place that will satisfy your sovereignty requirements, as well as your compliance requirements. >> Yeah, we did talk about sovereignty, Drew, this is really, what's interesting to me, I'm a bit of a industry historian, when I look back to the early days of cloud, I remember the large storage companies, you know, their CEOs would say, we're going to have an answer for the cloud and they would go out, and for instance, I know one bought competitor of Carbonite, and then couldn't figure out what to do with it, they couldn't figure out how to compete with the cloud in part, because they were afraid it was going to cannibalize their existing business, I think another part is because they just didn't have that imagination to develop an architecture that in a business model that could scale to see that you guys have done that is I love it because it brings competition, it brings innovation and it helps lower clients cost and solve really nagging problems. Like, you know, ransomware, of mutability and recovery, I'll give you the last word, Drew. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, the on-prem vendors, they're not going to go away anytime soon, right, there's always going to be a need for, you know, incredibly low latency, high bandwidth, you know, but, you know, not all data's hot all the time and by hot, I mean, you know, extremely hot, you know, let's take, you know, real time analytics for, maybe facial recognition, right, that requires sub-millisecond type of processing. But once you've done that work, right, you want to store that data for a long, long time, and you're going to want to also tap back into it later, so, you know, other folks are telling you that, you know, you can go to these like, you know, cold glacial type of tiered storage, yeah, don't believe the hype, you're still going to pay way more for that than you would with just a Wasabi-like hot cloud storage system. And, you know, we don't compete with our partners, right? We compliment, you know, what they're bringing to market in terms of the software vendors, in terms of the hardware vendors, right, we're a beautiful component for that hybrid cloud architecture. And I think folks are gravitating towards that, I think the cloud is kind of hitting a new gear if you will, in terms of adoption and recognition for the security that they can achieve with it. >> All right, Drew, thank you for that, definitely we see the momentum, in a moment, Drew and I will be back to get the customer perspective with Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information technology services at The Hotchkiss School, keep it right there. >> Hey, I'm Nate, and we wrote this song about ransomware to educate people, people like Brenda. >> Oh, God, I'm so sorry. We know you are, but Brenda, you're not alone, this hasn't just happened to you. >> No! ♪ Colonial Oil Pipeline had a guy ♪ ♪ who didn't change his password ♪ ♪ That sucks ♪ ♪ His password leaked, the data was breached ♪ ♪ And it cost his company 4 million bucks ♪ ♪ A fake update was sent to people ♪ ♪ Working for the meat company JBS ♪ ♪ That's pretty clever ♪ ♪ Instead of getting new features, they got hacked ♪ ♪ And had to pay the largest crypto ransom ever ♪ ♪ And 20 billion dollars, billion with a b ♪ ♪ Have been paid by companies in healthcare ♪ ♪ If you wonder buy your premium keeps going ♪ ♪ Up, up, up, up, up ♪ ♪ Now you're aware ♪ ♪ And now the hackers they are gettin' cocky ♪ ♪ When they lock your data ♪ ♪ You know, it has gotten so bad ♪ ♪ That they demand all of your money and it gets worse ♪ ♪ They go and the trouble with the Facebook ad ♪ ♪ Next time, something seems too good to be true ♪ ♪ Like a free trip to Asia! ♪ ♪ Just check first and I'll help before you ♪ ♪ Think before you click ♪ ♪ Don't get fooled by this ♪ ♪ Who isn't old enough to drive to school ♪ ♪ Take it from me, the director of IT ♪ ♪ Don't click on that email from a prince in Nairobi ♪ ♪ Because he's not really a prince ♪ ♪ Now our data's locked up on our screen ♪ ♪ Controlled by a kid who's just fifteen ♪ ♪ And he's using our money to buy a Ferrari ♪ >> It's a pretty sweet car. ♪ A kid without facial hair, who lives with his mom ♪ ♪ To learn more about this go to wasabi.com ♪ >> Hey, don't do that. ♪ Cause if we had Wasabi's immutability ♪ >> You going to ruin this for me! ♪ This fifteen-year-old wouldn't have on me ♪ (gentle music) >> Drew and I are pleased to welcome Kevin Warenda, who's the Director of Information Technology Services at The Hotchkiss School, a very prestigious and well respected boarding school in the beautiful Northwest corner of Connecticut, hello, Kevin. >> Hello, it's nice to be here, thanks for having me. >> Yeah, you bet. Hey, tell us a little bit more about The Hotchkiss School and your role. >> Sure, The Hotchkiss School is an independent boarding school, grades nine through 12, as you said, very prestigious and in an absolutely beautiful location on the deepest freshwater lake in Connecticut, we have 500 acre main campus and a 200 acre farm down the street. My role as the Director of Information Technology Services, essentially to oversee all of the technology that supports the school operations, academics, sports, everything we do on campus. >> Yeah, and you've had a very strong history in the educational field, you know, from that lens, what's the unique, you know, or if not unique, but the pressing security challenge that's top of mind for you? >> I think that it's clear that educational institutions are a target these days, especially for ransomware. We have a lot of data that can be used by threat actors and schools are often underfunded in the area of IT security, IT in general sometimes, so, I think threat actors often see us as easy targets or at least worthwhile to try to get into. >> Because specifically you are potentially spread thin, underfunded, you got students, you got teachers, so there really are some, are there any specific data privacy concerns as well around student privacy or regulations that you can speak to? >> Certainly, because of the fact that we're an independent boarding school, we operate things like even a health center, so, data privacy regulations across the board in terms of just student data rights and FERPA, some of our students are under 18, so, data privacy laws such as COPPA apply, HIPAA can apply, we have PCI regulations with many of our financial transactions, whether it be fundraising through alumni development, or even just accepting the revenue for tuition so, it's a unique place to be, again, we operate very much like a college would, right, we have all the trappings of a private college in terms of all the operations we do and that's what I love most about working in education is that it's all the industries combined in many ways. >> Very cool. So let's talk about some of the defense strategies from a practitioner point of view, then I want to bring in Drew to the conversation so what are the best practice and the right strategies from your standpoint of defending your data? >> Well, we take a defense in-depth approach, so we layer multiple technologies on top of each other to make sure that no single failure is a key to getting beyond those defenses, we also keep it simple, you know, I think there's some core things that all organizations need to do these days in including, you know, vulnerability scanning, patching , using multifactor authentication, and having really excellent backups in case something does happen. >> Drew, are you seeing any similar patterns across other industries or customers? I mean, I know we're talking about some uniqueness in the education market, but what can we learn from other adjacent industries? >> Yeah, you know, Kevin is spot on and I love hearing what he's doing, going back to our prior conversation about Zero Trust, right, that defense in-depth approach is beautifully aligned, right, with the Zero Trust approach, especially things like multifactor authentication, always shocked at how few folks are applying that very, very simple technology and across the board, right? I mean, Kevin is referring to, you know, financial industry, healthcare industry, even, you know, the security and police, right, they need to make sure that the data that they're keeping, evidence, right, is secure and immutable, right, because that's evidence. >> Well, Kevin, paint a picture for us, if you would. So, you were primarily on-prem looking at potentially, you know, using more cloud, you were a VMware shop, but tell us, paint a picture of your environment, kind of the applications that you support and the kind of, I want to get to the before and the after Wasabi, but start with kind of where you came from. >> Sure, well, I came to The Hotchkiss School about seven years ago and I had come most recently from public K12 and municipal, so again, not a lot of funding for IT in general, security, or infrastructure in general, so Nutanix was actually a hyperconverged solution that I implemented at my previous position. So when I came to Hotchkiss and found mostly on-prem workloads, everything from the student information system to the card access system that students would use, financial systems, they were almost all on premise, but there were some new SaaS solutions coming in play, we had also taken some time to do some business continuity, planning, you know, in the event of some kind of issue, I don't think we were thinking about the pandemic at the time, but certainly it helped prepare us for that, so, as different workloads were moved off to hosted or cloud-based, we didn't really need as much of the on-premise compute and storage as we had, and it was time to retire that cluster. And so I brought the experience I had with Nutanix with me, and we consolidated all that into a hyper-converged platform, running Nutanix AHV, which allowed us to get rid of all the cost of the VMware licensing as well and it is an easier platform to manage, especially for small IT shops like ours. >> Yeah, AHV is the Acropolis hypervisor and so you migrated off of VMware avoiding the VTax avoidance, that's a common theme among Nutanix customers and now, did you consider moving into AWS? You know, what was the catalyst to consider Wasabi as part of your defense strategy? >> We were looking at cloud storage options and they were just all so expensive, especially in egress fees to get data back out, Wasabi became across our desks and it was such a low barrier to entry to sign up for a trial and get, you know, terabyte for a month and then it was, you know, $6 a month for terabyte. After that, I said, we can try this out in a very low stakes way to see how this works for us. And there was a couple things we were trying to solve at the time, it wasn't just a place to put backup, but we also needed a place to have some files that might serve to some degree as a content delivery network, you know, some of our software applications that are deployed through our mobile device management needed a place that was accessible on the internet that they could be stored as well. So we were testing it for a couple different scenarios and it worked great, you know, performance wise, fast, security wise, it has all the features of S3 compliance that works with Nutanix and anyone who's familiar with S3 permissions can apply them very easily and then there was no egress fees, we can pull data down, put data up at will, and it's not costing as any extra, which is excellent because especially in education, we need fixed costs, we need to know what we're going to spend over a year before we spend it and not be hit with, you know, bills for egress or because our workload or our data storage footprint grew tremendously, we need that, we can't have the variability that the cloud providers would give us. >> So Kevin, you explained you're hypersensitive about security and privacy for obvious reasons that we discussed, were you concerned about doing business with a company with a funny name? Was it the trial that got you through that knothole? How did you address those concerns as an IT practitioner? >> Yeah, anytime we adopt anything, we go through a risk review. So we did our homework and we checked the funny name really means nothing, there's lots of companies with funny names, I think we don't go based on the name necessarily, but we did go based on the history, understanding, you know, who started the company, where it came from, and really looking into the technology and understanding that the value proposition, the ability to provide that lower cost is based specifically on the technology in which it lays down data. So, having a legitimate, reasonable, you know, excuse as to why it's cheap, we weren't thinking, well, you know, you get what you pay for, it may be less expensive than alternatives, but it's not cheap, you know, it's reliable, and that was really our concern. So we did our homework for sure before even starting the trial, but then the trial certainly confirmed everything that we had learned. >> Yeah, thank you for that. Drew, explain the whole egress charge, we hear a lot about that, what do people need to know? >> First of all, it's not a funny name, it's a memorable name, Dave, just like theCUBE, let's be very clear about that, second of all, egress charges, so, you know, other storage providers charge you for every API call, right? Every get, every put, every list, everything, okay, it's part of their process, it's part of how they make money, it's part of how they cover the cost of all their other services, we don't do that. And I think, you know, as Kevin has pointed out, right, that's a huge differentiator because you're talking about a significant amount of money above and beyond what is the list price. In fact, I would tell you that most of the other storage providers, hyperscalers, you know, their list price, first of all, is, you know, far exceeding anything else in the industry, especially what we offer and then, right, their additional cost, the egress costs, the API requests can be two, three, 400% more on top of what you're paying per terabyte. >> So, you used a little coffee analogy earlier in our conversation, so here's what I'm imagining, like I have a lot of stuff, right? And I had to clear up my bar and I put some stuff in storage, you know, right down the street and I pay them monthly, I can't imagine having to pay them to go get my stuff, that's kind of the same thing here. >> Oh, that's a great metaphor, right? That storage locker, right? You know, can you imagine every time you want to open the door to that storage locker and look inside having to pay a fee? >> No, that would be annoying. >> Or, every time you pull into the yard and you want to put something in that storage locker, you have to pay an access fee to get to the yard, you have to pay a door opening fee, right, and then if you want to look and get an inventory of everything in there, you have to pay, and it's ridiculous, it's your data, it's your storage, it's your locker, you've already paid the annual fee, probably, 'cause they gave you a discount on that, so why shouldn't you have unfettered access to your data? That's what Wasabi does and I think as Kevin pointed out, right, that's what sets us completely apart from everybody else. >> Okay, good, that's helpful, it helps us understand how Wasabi's different. Kevin, I'm always interested when I talk to practitioners like yourself in learning what you do, you know, outside of the technology, what are you doing in terms of educating your community and making them more cyber aware? Do you have training for students and faculty to learn about security and ransomware protection, for example? >> Yes, cyber security awareness training is definitely one of the required things everyone should be doing in their organizations. And we do have a program that we use and we try to make it fun and engaging too, right, this is often the checking the box kind of activity, insurance companies require it, but we want to make it something that people want to do and want to engage with so, even last year, I think we did one around the holidays and kind of pointed out the kinds of scams they may expect in their personal life about, you know, shipping of orders and time for the holidays and things like that, so it wasn't just about protecting our school data, it's about the fact that, you know, protecting their information is something do in all aspects of your life, especially now that the folks are working hybrid often working from home with equipment from the school, the stakes are much higher and people have a lot of our data at home and so knowing how to protect that is important, so we definitely run those programs in a way that we want to be engaging and fun and memorable so that when they do encounter those things, especially email threats, they know how to handle them. >> So when you say fun, it's like you come up with an example that we can laugh at until, of course, we click on that bad link, but I'm sure you can come up with a lot of interesting and engaging examples, is that what you're talking about, about having fun? >> Yeah, I mean, sometimes they are kind of choose your own adventure type stories, you know, they stop as they run, so they're telling a story and they stop and you have to answer questions along the way to keep going, so, you're not just watching a video, you're engaged with the story of the topic, yeah, and that's what I think is memorable about it, but it's also, that's what makes it fun, you're not just watching some talking head saying, you know, to avoid shortened URLs or to check, to make sure you know the sender of the email, no, you're engaged in a real life scenario story that you're kind of following and making choices along the way and finding out was that the right choice to make or maybe not? So, that's where I think the learning comes in. >> Excellent. Okay, gentlemen, thanks so much, appreciate your time, Kevin, Drew, awesome having you in theCUBE. >> My pleasure, thank you. >> Yeah, great to be here, thanks. >> Okay, in a moment, I'll give you some closing thoughts on the changing world of data protection and the evolution of cloud object storage, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >> Announcer: Some things just don't make sense, like showing up a little too early for the big game. >> How early are we? >> Couple months. Popcorn? >> Announcer: On and off season, the Red Sox cover their bases with affordable, best in class cloud storage. >> These are pretty good seats. >> Hey, have you guys seen the line from the bathroom? >> Announcer: Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage, it just makes sense. >> You don't think they make these in left hand, do you? >> We learned today how a serial entrepreneur, along with his co-founder saw the opportunity to tap into the virtually limitless scale of the cloud and dramatically reduce the cost of storing data while at the same time, protecting against ransomware attacks and other data exposures with simple, fast storage, immutability, air gaps, and solid operational processes, let's not forget about that, okay? People and processes are critical and if you can point your people at more strategic initiatives and tasks rather than wrestling with infrastructure, you can accelerate your process redesign and support of digital transformations. Now, if you want to learn more about immutability and Object Block, click on the Wasabi resource button on this page, or go to wasabi.com/objectblock. Thanks for watching Secure Storage Hot Takes made possible by Wasabi. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage, well, see you next time. (gentle upbeat music)

(ethereal music) >> Good morning, everyone, and welcome to theCUBE's day-two coverage of Snowflake Summit '22. Lisa Martin here with Dave Vellante. We are live in Las Vegas at Caesar's Forum, looking forward to an action-packed day here on theCUBE. Our first guest joins us, Bill Stratton, the global industry lead, media, entertainment and advertising at Snowflake. Bill, great to have you on the program talking about industry specifics. >> Glad to be here, excited to have a conversation. >> Yeah, the media and entertainment industry has been keeping a lot of us alive the last couple of years, probably more of a dependence on it than we've seen stuck at home. Talk to us about the data culture in the media, entertainment and advertising landscape, how is data being used today? >> Sure. Well, let's start with what you just mentioned, these last couple of years, I think, coming out of the pandemic, a lot of trends and impact to the media industry. I think there were some things happening prior to COVID, right? Streaming services were starting to accelerate. And obviously, Netflix was an early mover. Disney launched their streaming service right before the pandemic, Disney+, with ESPN+ as well. I think then, as the pandemic occurred these last two years, the acceleration of consumers' habits, obviously, of not just unbundling their cable subscription, but then choosing, you know, what services they want to subscribe to, right? I mean, I think we all sort of grew up in this era of, okay, the bundle was the bundle, you had sports, you had news, you had entertainment, whether you watched the channel or not, you had the bundle. And what the pandemic has accelerated is what I call, and I think a lot of folks call, the golden age of content. And really, the golden age of content is about the consumer. They're in control now, they pick and choose what services they want, what they watch, when they watch it. And I think that has extremely, sort of accelerated this adoption on the consumer side, and then it's creating this data ecosystem, as a result of companies like Disney having a direct-to-consumer relationship for the first time. It used to be a Disney or an NBC was a wholesaler, and the cable or satellite company had the consumer data and relationship. Now, the companies that are producing the content have the data and the consumer relationships. It's a fascinating time. >> And they're still coming over the top on the Telco networks, right? >> Absolutely right. >> Telco's playing in this game? >> Yeah, Telco is, I think what the interesting dynamic with Telco is, how do you bundle access, high speed, everybody still needs high speed at their home, with content? And so I think it's a similar bundle, but it takes on a different characteristic, because the cable and Telcos are not taking the content risk. AT&T sold Warner Media recently, and I think they looked at it and said, we're going to stay with the infrastructure, let somebody else do the content. >> And I think I heard, did I hear this right the other day, that Roku is now getting into the content business? >> Roku is getting into it. And they were early mover, right? They said the TVs aren't, the operating system in the television is not changing fast enough for content. So their dongle that you would slide into a TV was a great way to get content on connected televisions, which is the fastest growing platform. >> I was going to say, what are the economics like in this business? Because the bundles were sort of a limiting factor, in terms of the TAM. >> Yeah. >> And now, we get great content, all right, to watch "Better Call Saul", I have to get AMC+ or whatever. >> You know, your comment, your question about the economics and the TAM is an interesting one, because I think we're still working through it. One of the things, I think, that's coming to the forefront is that you have to have a subscription revenue stream. Okay? Netflix had a subscription revenue stream for the last six, eight, 10 years, significantly, but I think you even see with Netflix that they have to go to a second revenue model, which is going to be an ad-supported model, right? We see it in the press these last couple days with Reid Hastings. So I think you're going to see, obviously subscription, obviously ad-supported, but the biggest thing, back to the consumer, is that the consumer's not going to sit through two minutes of advertising to watch a 22 minute show. >> Dave: No way. >> Right? So what's then going to happen is that the content companies want to know what's relevant to you, in terms of advertising. So if I have relevancy in my ad experience, then it doesn't quite feel, it's not intrusive, and it's relevant to my experience. >> And the other vector in the TAM, just one last follow-up, is you see Amazon, with Prime, going consumption. >> Bill: That's right. >> You get it with Prime, it's sort of there, and the movies aren't the best in the world, but you can buy pretty much any movie you want on a consumption basis. >> Yeah. Just to your last quick point, there is, we saw last week, the Boston Red Sox are bundling tickets, season tickets, with a subscription to their streaming service. >> NESN+, I think it is, yeah. So just like Prime, NESN+- >> And it's like 30 bucks a month. >> -just like Prime bundling with your delivery service, you're going to start to see all kinds of bundles happen. >> Dave: Interesting. >> Man, the sky is the limit, it's like it just keeps going and proliferating. >> Bill: It does. >> You talk about, on the ad side for a second, you mentioned the relevance, and we expect that as consumers, we're so demanding, (clears throat) excuse me, we don't have the patience, one of the things I think that was in short supply during COVID, and probably still is, is patience. >> That's right. >> I think with all of us, but we expect that brands know us enough to surf up the content that they think we watched, we watched "Breaking Bad", "Better Call Saul", don't show me other things that aren't relevant to the patterns I've been showing you, the content creators have to adapt quickly to the rising and changing demands of the consumer. >> That's right. Some people even think, as you go forward and consumers have this expectation, like you just mentioned, that brands not only need to understand their own view of the consumer, and this is going to come into the Snowflake points that we talk about in a minute, but the larger view that a brand has about a consumer, not just their own view, but how they consume content, where they consume it, what other brands they even like, that all builds that picture of making it relevant for the consumer and viewer. >> Where does privacy come into the mix? So we want it to be relevant and personalized in a non-creepy way. Talk to us about the data clean rooms that Snowflake launched, >> Bill: That's right. >> and how is that facilitating from a PII perspective, or is it? >> Yeah. Great question. So I think the other major development, in addition to the pandemic, driving people watching all these shows is the fact that privacy legislation is increasing. So we started with California with the CCPA, we had GDPR in Europe, and what we're starting to see is state by state roll out different privacy legislations. At some point, it may be true that we have a federal privacy legislation, and there are some bills that are working through the legislature right now. Hard to tell what's going to happen. But to your question, the importance of privacy, and respecting privacy, is exactly happening at the same time that media companies and publishers need to piece together all the viewing habits that you have. You've probably watched, already this morning, on your PC, on your phone, and in order to bring that experience together a media company has to be able to tie that together, right? Collaborate. So you have collaboration on one side, and then you have privacy on the other, and they're not necessarily, normally, go together, Right? They're opposing forces. So now though, with Snowflake, and our data clean room, we like to call it a data collaboration platform, okay? It's not really what a data warehouse function traditionally has been, right? So if I can take data collaboration, and our clean room, what it does is it brings privacy controls to the participants. So if I'm an advertiser, and I'm a publisher, and I want to collaborate to create an advertising campaign, they both can design how they want to do that privacy-based collaboration, Because it's interesting, one company might have a different perspective of privacy, on a risk profile, than another company. So it's very hard to say one size is going to fit all. So what we at Snowflake do, with our infrastructure, is let you design how you create your own clean room. >> Is that a differentiator for Snowflake, the clean rooms? >> It's absolutely a very big differentiator. Two reasons, or probably two, three reasons, really. One is, it's cross cloud. So all the advertisers aren't going to be in the same cloud, all the publishers aren't going to be in the same cloud. One big differentiator there. Second big differentiator is, we want to be able to bring applications to the data, so our clean room can enable you to create measurement against an ad campaign without moving your data. So bringing measurement to the data, versus sending data to applications then improves the privacy. And then the third one is, frankly, our pricing model. You only pay for Snowflake what you use. So in the advertising world, there's what's called an ad tech tax, there is no ad tech tax for Snowflake, because we're simply a pay-as-you-go service. So it's a very interesting dynamic. >> So what's that stack look like, in your world? So I've pulled up Frank's chart, I took a picture of his, he's called it the new, modern data stack, I think he called it, but it had infrastructure in the bottom, okay, that's AWS, Google, Azure, and then a lot of you, live data, that would be the media data cloud, the workload execution, the specific workload here is media and entertainment, and then application development, that's a new layer of value that you're bringing in, marketplace, which is the whole ecosystem, and then monetization comes from building on top. >> Bill: Yes. >> So I got AWS in there, and other clouds, you got a big chunk of that, where do your customers add value on top of that? >> Yeah. So the way you described it, I think, with Frank's point, is right on. You have the infrastructure. We know that a lot of advertisers, for example, aren't going to use Amazon, because the retailer competes with Amazon, So they want to might be in Google or Azure. And then sort of as you go up the stack, for the data layer that is Snowflake, especially what we call first-party data, is sitting in that Snowflake environment, right? But that Snowflake environment is a distributed environment, so a Disney, who was on stage with me yesterday, she talked about, Jaya talked about their first-party datas in Snowflake, their advertisers' datas in their own Snowflake account, in their own infrastructure. And then what's interesting is is that application layer is coming to the data, and so what we're really seeing is an acceleration of companies building that application natively on Snowflake to do measurement, to do targeting, to do activation. And so, that growth of that final application layer is what we're seeing as the acceleration in the stack. >> So the more data that's in that massive distributed data cloud, the more value your customers can get out of it. And I would imagine you're just looking to tick things off that where customers are going outside of the Snowflake data cloud, let's attack that so they don't have to. >> Yeah, I think these partners, (clears throat) excuse me, and customers, it's an interesting dynamic, because they're customers of ours. But now, because anybody who is already in Snowflake can be their customer, then they're becoming our partner. So it's an interesting dynamic, because we're bringing advertisers to a Disney or an NBCU, because they already have their data in Snowflake. So the network effect that's getting created because of this layer that's being built is accelerated. >> In 2013, right after the second reinvent, I wrote a piece called "How to Compete with the Amazon Gorilla." And it seemed to us pretty obvious at the time, you're not going to win an infrastructure again, you got to build on top of it, you got to build ecosystems within industries, and the data, the connection points, that network effect that you just talked about, it's actually quite thrilling to see you guys building that. >> Well, and I think you know this too, I mean, Amazon's a great partner of ours as well, right? So they're part of our media data cloud, as Amazon, right? So we're making it easier and easier for companies to be able to spin up a clean room in places like AWS, so that they get the privacy controls and the governance that's required as well. >> What do you advise to, say, the next generation of media and advertising companies who may be really early in the data journey? Obviously, there's competition right here in the rear view mirror, but we've seen services that launch and fail, what do you advise to those folks that maybe are early in the journey and how can Snowflake help them accelerate that to be able to launch services they can monetize, and get those consumers watching? >> I think the first thing for a lot of these brands is that they need to really own their data. And what I mean by that is, they need to understand the consumer relationship that they have, they need to take the privacy and the governance very seriously, and they need to start building that muscle. It's almost, it's a routine and a muscle that they just need to continue to kind of build up, because if you think about it, a media company spends two, three hours a day with their customer. You might watch two hours of a streaming show, but how much time do you spend with a single brand a day? Maybe 30 seconds, maybe 10 seconds, right? And so, their need to build the muscle, to be able to collect the data in a privacy-compliant way, build the intelligence off of that, and then leverage the intelligence. We talked about it a few days ago, and you look at a retailer, as a really good example, a retailer is using Snowflake and the retail data cloud to optimize their supply chain. Okay? But their supply chain extends beyond their own infrastructure to the advertising and marketing community, because if I can't predict demand, how do I then connect it to my supply chain? So our media data cloud is helping retailers and consumer product goods companies actually drive demand into their reconstructed supply chain. So they both work together. >> So you have a big focus, obviously, on the monetization piece, of course, that's a great place to start. Where do you see the media data cloud going? >> Yeah. I think we'll start to expand beyond advertising and beyond marketing. There's really important sub-segments of media. Gaming is one. You talk about the pandemic and teenagers playing games on their phones. So we'll have an emphasis around gaming. We'll have an emphasis in sports. Sports is going through a big change in an ecosystem. And there's a big opportunity to connect the dots in those ecosystems as well. And then I think, to what we were just talking about, I think connecting commerce and media is a very important area. And I think the two are still very loosely connected today. It used to be, could I buy the Jennifer Aniston sweater from "Friends", right? That was always the analogy. Now, media and social media, and TikTok and everything else, are combining media and commerce very closely. So I think we'll start to see more focus around that as well. So that adds to your monetization. >> Right, right. And you can NFT that. (Lisa laughs) >> Bill: That's right, there you go, you can mint an NFT on that. >> It's the tip of the iceberg. >> Absolutely. >> There's so much more potential to go. Bill, thank you so much for joining us bright and early this morning, talking about what snowflake is doing in media, entertainment and advertising. Exciting stuff, relevant to all of us, we appreciate your insights and your forward-looking statements. >> Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it. >> Our pleasure. >> Thank you. >> Good >> Bill: Bye now. >> For our guest and Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're up early with us watching theCUBE's day-two coverage of Snowflake Summit '22. We'll be back in a moment with our next guest. (upbeat music)

>>To the Seaport in Boston, Massachusetts, everybody's buzzing. The Bruins are playing tonight. They tied it up. The Celtics tied it up last night. We're excited. We don't talk about the red Sox. Red Sox are getting struggles, but you know, we have good distractions. Paul goer is here. He's the president and chief executive officer at red hat and also a Boston fan of great to see, of course, you too. >>Nice to see you guys, you know, it's been a, it's been a while. >><laugh> yeah, we saw you, you know, online and virtually for a couple of years there, but, uh, you know, we've been doing red hat summit for a long, long time. Yeah, of course we were talking earlier. It's just much more intimate, kind of a VIP event, a few more suit jackets here. You know, I got my tie on, so I don't get too much grief. I usually get grief when I wear a tie of red hat summit, but it's a different format this year. Compressed keynotes. Your keynote was great. The new normal, sometimes we call it the new abnormal <laugh>, uh, but you know, how do you feel? >>I, I, I, I feel great. First of all, you know, combination today, virtual audience in, in house audience here today. I think we're gonna see a lot of that in the future. I mean, we designed the event around that and I, I think it, I think it played pretty well. Kudos, kudos to our team. You're right. It's, it's, it's a bit more intimate even the way it was set up, but those are the conversations we like having with our customers and our partners, much more partner centric, uh, as well right now, as well. >>You know, we were talking about, you know, hybrid cloud. It was kind of, you know, it was a good marketing term. And, but now it's, it's, it's become the real thing. I've said many times the, the definition of cloud is changing. It's expanding it's no, the cloud is no longer this remote set of services, you know, somewhere up in the cloud, it's on prem connecting to a cloud across clouds, out to the edge and you need capabilities that work everywhere. And that's what red hat did. The market's just swimming toward you. >>Yeah. I mean, you look at it, you know, I was, uh, you know, if you look at it, you know, the clouds are powerful unto themselves, right? The clouds are powerful unto themselves. They're all different. Right? And that that's, I mean, hardware vendors were, were similar, but different, same thing. You need that connective tissue across, across the whole thing. I mean, as I said, in my keynote today, I remember talking to some of our CIOs and customers 10 years ago and they said, we're going 90% of our apps tomorrow to one cloud. And we knew that wasn't practical because of course the clouds are built from Linux. So we knew it was underneath the hood and, and what's happened. It's taken some time, but as they started to get into that, they started to see, well, maybe one cloud's more suited for one application than the other, these apps. You may have to keep on premise, but you know, what really exploded at the, the, the hybrid thing, the edge. Now they're putting things at the edge, the GM announcement tell you, I know you're gonna talk to Francis. Yeah, yeah. Later. I mean, that's, that's a mini data center in, in every cloud, but that's still under the purview of the CIO, you know? So, so, so that's what hybrid's all about is tying all those pieces together, cuz it got more powerful, but it also more complex. >>You mentioned being the connective tissue, but we don't hear as much talk about multi-cloud seems to me, as we used to this conference has been all about hybrid cloud. You don't really talk about multi-cloud. How important is that to the red hat strategy, being that consistent layer? >>It's probably my mistake or our mistake because multi's more prevalent and more important than just hybrid alone. I mean, hybrid hybrid started from on-premise to one part to any one particular cloud. That was the, the first thought of hybrid. But as I said, as, as, as um, some of the cloud providers became so big, um, every, every CIO I talked to, whether they know whether they know it or not most do are in a multi environment for a whole bunch of reasons, right. You know, one cloud provider might be better in a different part of the world. And another one cloud provider might have a better service than another. Some just don't like to be stuck to one it's it's really hybrid multi. We should, we should train ourselves to every time we say hybrid, say multi, because that's really, that's really what it is. It, I think that happened overnight with, with Microsoft, you know, with Microsoft they've, they've, they've really grown over the last few years, so has Amazon for that matter. But Microsoft really coming up is what really made it a, a high, a multi world. >>Microsoft's remarkable what, what they're doing. But I, I, I have a different thinking on this. I, I heard Chuck Whitten last week at, at the Dell conference he used, he said used the phrase a multicloud, uh, by default versus multi-cloud by design. And I thought that was pretty interesting because I've said that multi-cloud is largely multi-vendor, you know? And so hybrid has implications, right? We, we bring and a shesh came up with a new term today. Metacloud I use Supercloud I like Metacloud better because something's happening, Paul. It feels like there's this layer abstraction layer that the underlying complexity is hidden. Think about OpenShift. Yeah. I could buy, I could get OpenShift for free. Yeah. I mean, I could, and I could cobble together and stitch together at 13, 15 dozens of different services and replicate, but I don't, I don't want that complexity. I want you to hide that complexity. I want, I'd rather spend money on your R and D than my engineering. So something's changing. It feels like >>You buy that. I totally buy that. I mean, you know, I, I, I'm gonna try to not make this sound like a marketing thing because it's not, not fair enough. Right. I mean, I'm engineer at heart, you know that, so, >>Okay. >>I really look to what we're trying to do is we're building a hybrid multi cloud. I mean that we, I look at us as a cloud provider spanning the hybrid multi all the way out to the edge world, but we don't have the data centers in the back. Like the cloud providers do in and by that is you're seeing our products being consumed more like cloud services because that's what our customers are demanding. Our, our products now can be bought out of the various marketplaces, et cetera. You're seeing different business models from us. So, uh, you're seeing, uh, committed spend, for example, like the cloud providers where a customer will buy so much up front and sort of just work it down. You're seeing different models on how they're consumed, consumption, based pricing. These, these are all things that came from the cloud providers and customers buying like that. >>They now want that across their entire environment. They don't wanna buy differently on premise or in one cloud and they don't wanna develop differently. They don't wanna operate differently. They don't wanna have to secure it differently. Security's the biggest thing with, with our, with our customers, because hybrid's powerful, but you no longer have the, you know, your security per perimeter, no longer the walls of your data center. You know, you're, you're responsible as a CIO. You're responsible for every app. Yeah. No matter where it's running, if that's the break in point, you're responsible for that. So that's why we've done things like, you know, we cried stack rocks. We've, we've built it into the container Kubernetes platform that spans those various footprints because you no longer can just do perimeter security because the perimeter is, is very, very, very large right now >>Diffuse. One of the thing on the multi-cloud hyper skills, I, I, red hat's never been defensive about public cloud. You, I think you look at the a hundred billion dollars a year in CapEx spend that's a gift to the industry. Not only the entire it industry, but, but the financial services companies and healthcare companies, they can build their own hybrid clouds. Metacloud super clouds taking advantage of that, but they still need that connective tissue. And that's where >>We products come in. We welcome our customers to go to, to the public cloud. Um, uh, look, it's it's. I said a long time ago, we said a long time it was gonna be a hybrid. Well, I should have said multi anybody said hybrid, then it's gonna be a hybrid world. It is. And it doesn't matter if it's a 20, 80, 80, 20, 40, 60, 60, 40. It's not gonna be a hundred percent anywhere. Yeah. And, and so in that, in that definition, it's a hybrid multi world. >>I wanna change the tune a little bit because I've been covering IBM for 40 years and seen a lot of acquisitions and see how they work. And usually it follows the same path. There's a commitment to leaving the acquire company alone. And then over time that fades, the company just becomes absorbed. Same thing with red hat. It seems like they're very much committed to, to, to leaving you alone. At least they said that upon the acquisition, have they followed through on that promise? >>I have to tell you IBM has followed through on every commitment they've made, made to us. I mean, I, I owe it, I owe a lot of it to Arvin. Um, he was the architect of the deal, right. Um, we've known each other for a long time. Um, he's a great guy. Um, he, uh, he, he believes in it. It's not, he's not just doing it that way because he thinks, um, something bad will happen if he doesn't, he's doing it that way. Cuz he believes in that our ecosystem is what made us. I mean, I mean, even here it's about the partners in the ecosystem. If you look at what made REL people think what made red hat as a company was support, right. Support's really important. Small piece of the value proposition life cycle supports certainly their life cycle a 10 year life cycle just came out of a, a, a customer conference asking about the life cycle and could we extend it to 15 years? You know? Um, the ecosystem is probably the most important part of, of, of, of the, of the overall value proposition. And Arvin knows in IBM knows that, you know, we have to be neutral to be able to do everything the same for all of our ecosystem partners. Some that are IBM's competitors, even. So, >>So we were noticing this morning, I mean, aside from a brief mention of power PC and the IBM logo during, at one point, there was no mention of IBM during the keynote sessions this morning. Is that intentional? Or is that just >>No, no, it it's, it's not intentional. I mean, I think that's part of, we have our strategy to drive and we're, we're driving our, our strategy. We, we, we IBM great partner. We look at them as a partner just as we do our, our many other partners and we won't, you know, we wouldn't, we wouldn't do something with our products, um, for I with IBM that we wouldn't offer to our, our entire ecosystem. >>But there is a difference now, right? I don't know these numbers. Exactly. You would know though, but, but pre 2019 acquisition red hat was just, I think north of 3 billion in revenue growing at maybe 12% a year. Something like that, AR I mean, we hear on the earnings calls, 21% growth. I think he's publicly said you're north of 5 billion or now I don't know how much of that consulting gets thrown in. IBM likes to, you know, IBM math, but still it's a much bigger business. And, and I wonder if you could share with us, obviously you can't dig into the numbers, but have you hired more people? I would imagine. I mean, sure. Like what's been different from that standpoint in terms of the accelerant to your >>Business. Yeah. We've been on the same hiring cycle percentage wise as, as we, we always were. I mean, I think the best way to characterize the relationship and where they've helped is, um, Arvin, Arvin will say, IBM can be opinionated on red hat, but not the other way around <laugh>. So, so what that, what that means is they had a lot of, they had, they had a container based Linux platform. Yeah, right, right. They, they had all their, they were their way of moving to the cloud was that when we came in, they actually stopped that. And they standardized on OpenShift across all of their products. We're now the vehicle that brings the blue software products to the hybrid cloud. We are that vehicle that does it. So I think that's, that's how, that's how they, they look about it. I mean, I know, I mean in IBM consulting, I know, I know they have a great relationship with Microsoft of course. >>Right. And so, so that's, that's how to really look at it. They they're opinionated on us where we not the other way around, but that, but they're a great partner. And even if we're at two separate companies, we'd do be doing all the same things we're doing with them. Now, what they do do for us can do for us is they open a lot of doors in many cases. I mean, IBM's been around for over a hundred years. So in many cases, they're in, in, in the C-suite, we, we may be in the C suite, but we may be one layer down, one, two layers down or something. They, they can, they help us get access. And I think that's been a, a part of the growth as well as is them talking into their, into, into their >>Constituents. Their consulting's one of the FA if not the fastest growing part of their business. So that's kind of the tip of the spear for application modernization, but enough on IBM you said something in your keynote. That was really interesting to me. You said, you, you, you didn't use the word hardware Renaissance, but that my interpretation was you're expecting the next, you know, several years to be a hardware Renaissance. We, we certainly have done relationships with arm. You mentioned Nvidia and Intel. Of course, you've had relationships with Intel for a long time. And we're seeing just the spate of new hardware developments, you know, does hardware matter? I'll ask you, >>Oh, oh, I mean the edge, as I said, you're gonna see hardware innovation out in the edge, software innovation as well. You know, the interesting part about the edge is that, you know, obviously remade red hat. What we did with REL was we did a lot of engineering work to make every hardware architecture when, when it was, when, when the world was just standalone servers, we made every hardware architecture just work out of the box. Right? And we did that in such, because with an open source development model. So embedded in our psyche, in our development processes is working upstream, bringing it downstream 10 years, support all of that kind of thing. So we lit up all that hardware. Now we go out to the edge, it's a whole new, different set of hardware innovation out at the edge. We know how to do that. >>We know how to, we know how to make hardware, innovation safe for the customer. And so we're bringing full circle and you have containers embedded in, in Linux and REL right now as well. So we're actually with the edge, bringing it all full circle back to what we've been doing for 20 plus years. Um, on, on the hardware side, even as a big part of the world, goes to containers and hybrid in, in multi-cloud. So that's why we're so excited about, about, about the edge, you know, opportunity here. That's, that's a big part of where hybrid's going. >>And when you guys talk about edge, I mean, I, I know a lot of companies will talk about edge in the context of your retail location. Okay. That's fine. That's cool. That's edge or telco that that's edge. But when you talk about, um, an in vehicle operating system, right. You know, that's to me the far edge, and that's where it gets really interesting, massive volumes, different architectures, both hardware and software. And a lot of the data may stay. Maybe it doesn't even get persisted. May maybe some comes back to the club, but that's a new >>Ballgame. Well, think about it, right? I mean, you, if you listen, I think you, right. My talk this morning, how many changes are made in the Linux kernel? Right? You're running in a car now, right? From a safety perspective. You wanna update that? I mean, look, Francis talked about it. You'll talk to Francis later as well. I mean, you know, how many, how many in, in your iPhone world Francis talked about this this morning, you know, they can, they can bring you a whole new world with software updates, the same in the car, but you have to do it in such a way that you still stay with the safety protocols. You're able to back things out, things like that. So it's open source, but getting raw upstream, open source and managing itself yourself, I just, I'm sorry. It takes a lot of experience to be able to be able to do those kinds of things. So it's secure, that's insecure. And that's what that's, what's exciting about it. You look at E the telco world look where the telco world came from in the telco world. It was a hardware stack from the hardware firmware operating system, every service, whether it was 9 1, 1 or 4, 1, 1 was its own stack. Yep. In the 4g, 3g, >>4g >>Virtualized. Now, now it's all software. Yeah. Now it's all software all the way out to the cell tower. So now, so, so now you see vendors out there, right? As an application, as a container based application, running out, running in the base of a cell tower, >>Cell tower is gonna be a little mini data >>Center. Yeah, exactly. Because we're in our time here asking quickly, because you've been at red hat a long time. You, you, you, uh, architected a lot of the reason they're successful is, is your responsibility. A lot of companies have tried to duplicate the red hat model, the, the service and support model. Nobody has succeeded. Do you think anybody ever will or will red hat continue to be a unicorn in that respect? >>No, I, I, I think, I think it will. I think open source is making it into all different parts of technology. Now I have to tell you the, the reason why we were able to do it is we stayed. We stayed true to our roots. We made a decision a long time ago that we weren't gonna put a line, say everything below the line was open and above the line was closed. Sometimes it's hard sometimes to get a differentiation with the competition, it can be hard, but we've stayed true to that. And I, to this day, I think that's the thing that's made us is never a confusion on if it's open or not. So that forces us to build our business models around that as well. But >>Do you have a differentiated strategy? Talk about that. What's your what's your differentiation >>Are, are, well, I mean, with the cloud, a differentiation is that common cloud platform across I differentiate strategy from an open source perspective is to, to sort make open source consumable. And, and it's even more important now because as Linux Linux is the base of everything, there's not enough skills out there. So even, even a container platform like open source op like OpenShift, could you build your own? Certainly. Could you keep it updated? Could you keep it updated without breaking all the applications on top? Do you have an ecosystem around it? It's all of those things. It was, it was the support, the, the, the hardening the 10 year to predictability the ecosystem. That was, that was, that is the secret. I mean, we even put the secret out as open. >>Yeah, <laugh> right. Free, like a puppy, as they say. All right, Paul, thanks so much for coming back in the cubes. Great to see you face to face. Nice to see you guys get it. All right. Keep it right there. Dave Valante for Paul Gill, you're watching the cubes coverage of red hat summit, 2022 from Boston. Be right back.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of next level network experience event brought to >>you by info blocks. Okay, welcome back, everyone. This is the Cube's coverage of the next level networking experience. Virtual event within four blocks. I'm John Furrow, your host of the Cube. We're here in our Palo Alto, Calif. Studios as part of our remote access during Covic, getting the interviews and the stories and sharing that with you. We got a great guest here, then savages the network operations manager at Morgan School District in Utah. A customer of info blocks to share a story. Then thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having >>me. First of all, the Red Sox had a plus interview. I would say right now is gonna go great. Go Sox. Which baseball was in season. Great to have you on. Um, >>we'll get there. We'll >>get there. Um, my Yankee fans say when I say that. But anyway, Miss baseball, um, you know. But that brings up covert 19 baseball season sports. Life has been impacted. Your district. Like many school districts around the world, we're told to shut down, send workers home. That meant sending kids home, too. So we got the educators, get the administration, and you've got the kids all going home. >>Yeah. >>What did you do to keep things going? Because then stop. They had to do the remote learning and new things were emerging. New patterns, new traffic, new kinds of experiences. What did you learn? What's going on? >>Well, first we tried to lock the doors and pretend we weren't there, but they found us. Um, really? I mean, real quickly in our school district, we're not a 1 to 1 operation, so the, uh that caused a big change for us. Um, we had to quickly adapt. And we chose to use chromebooks because that's what we have for the students to use in their classes. So getting that, uh, squared away and send out into the family's was was a big challenge. But then on top of that being the school district, we then had to decide. Okay, how do we protect and filter provide the filtering that the students are gonna need even though they're at home? So there's some relative safety there when they're online and and accessing your email and things like that. So those were. Our two are probably our two. Biggest hurdles was, you know, ramping up the devices and then and then providing, making sure, you know, the network access from a filtering and consistency standpoint was going to work. >>You know, I got to ask you because I see this kind of disruption you don't You don't read about this in the i t. Manual around disaster recovery and, you know, disruption to operations. But essentially, the whole thing changes, but you still got to connect to the network, DNS. You gotta get the access to the content. You got content, you get systems. You got security all to be managed while in flight of dealing with connection points that remote. So you've got the disruption and the craziness of that, and then you've got this big I o t experiment basically edge of the network, you know, in all over the place. You know, on one hand, you kind of geek out and say, Wow, this is really kind of a challenge is an opportunity to solve the problem at the same time, you know, What do you do? So take us through that because that's a is a challenge of locking down the security in a borderless environment. People are everywhere. The students business has to get done. You got to resolve to. The resource is >>so thankfully, we had migrated If it blocks several years ago. Um and just this last, I would say in October, I finally got us on. Ah, cloud the blocks. One threat defense Cloud portion of it too. So from a security standpoint, we already had a really good, um foundation in place from both the DNs aspect and the DNS security aspect. Um so that was to be honest, most users. It was seamless transition. In many regards, both users didn't even realize they were being, You know, pushed through the info blocks is cloud DNs server, you know, which was providing security and filtering. So that was a big plus for us because it it was less man hours. We had to spend troubleshooting people's DNS resolutions. Why sites Wouldn't you know? Maybe they weren't being filtered correctly. All that was was to be honest, perfect. Where other platforms we had previously were just a nightmare to manage, >>like, for example, of the old way versus the new way here and marital, is it? What files configuration will take us through? What? You >>know, it was like a separate. It was a separate product content filter that works in conjunction with the firewall. Um, and I'm not going to name the company's name. I don't want, you know, even though many company but it seemed with that product we were spending, on average about 3 to 4 hours a day fixing false positives just from a filtering aspect because it would interfere with the DNS. And it does. It didn't really do it. I mean, how it filters is not based on DNS. Totally right. So by migrating temple blocks are DNS and the filtering the security is all handling at the DNs level. And it was just much more, um, to be I mean, frankly, honestly, is much more invisible to the end user. So >>more efficient. You decouple filtering from DNs resolution. Got it. All right, this is the big topic. I've been talking with info blocks people on this program in this event is on how this new d d I layer DNs d XP and I p address management kind of altogether super important. It's critical infrastructure Yeah. No spoilers, Enterprise. You're borderless institution. Same thing you go to school as a customer. How does the d I lay out this foundational security play for delivering this next level experience? What's your take on that? >>Well, for our like, for a school platform, we we use it in a number of ways. Besides, I mean, the filtering is huge, but just for the ability, like, for example, one of the components is is response policy zones or DNS firewalls what they call it, and that allows you one to manage, um, traditional, like DNS names, right? P addresses you can. You can manage those by creating essentially a zone that is like a white list of blacklist rewrite. So you've got a lot of control, and again it's filtering at the DNs level, so it's looking based on DNS responses inquiry. The other aspect of that is, is the feeds that you receive from info blocks. So by subscribing to those, we, um we have access to a lot of information that info Blocks and their partners have created identifying, you know, bad actors, malware attack vectors based on again DNs, uh, traffic, if you will, and so that takes a load office. Not having to worry. I'm trying to do all that on our own. I mean, we've seen a lot of attacks minimized because of the feeds themselves. So that again frees us up. We're a very small school district. In some regards, there's a I am the only network person in the district, and there's like, a total of four of us that manage, you know, kind of the support aspect. And so, being able to not have to spend time researching or tracking down, you know, breaches and attacks as much because of the DNS. Security frees me up to do other things, you know, like in the more standard networking realm, from a design and implementation. >>Great. Thanks for sharing that. I want to ask about security as a very competitive space security here and everyone promising it different things at different security things. You know, by I gotta ask you, why did you guys decide to use info blocks and what's the reason behind it? >>Well, to be frankly honest, I'm actually in info blocks trainer and I've been training for 15 years, so I kind of had an agenda when I first took this job to help out the school district. In my experience, I've been doing working in networking for over 20 years. And in my experience, I ever boxes one of the most easy and in best managed DNS solutions that I've come across. So, um, you know, I might be a little biased, but I'm okay with that. And so I I pushed us to be honest, to get there and then from the security aspect has all that has evolved. It just makes to me it makes sense. Why not wrap the more things you can maybe wrapped together. And so you know, when you're talking about attacks, over 90% of attacks use DNS. So if I have a solution that is already providing my DNS and then wraps the security into it, it just makes the most sense for me. >>Yeah. I mean, go back. The info box is DNA. You got cricket. Liu Stuart Bailey, the founder, was this is zero. This didn't just wake up one day and decided to start up these air practitioners early days of the Internet. They know DNS cold and DNS is we've been evolved. I mean, and when it needs that when you get into the DNS. Hacks and then you realize Okay, let's build an abstraction layer. You've seen Internet navigation discovery, all the stuff that's been proven. It is a critical infrastructure. >>Well, and to be honest, it's It's one of those services that you can't can't filter the firewall right. You have to have it. You have to. It's that foundation layer. And so it makes sense that Attackers air leveraging it because the fire will has to let it through in and out. And so it's a natural, almost a natural path for them to break in. So having something that speaks native DNS as part of your security platform makes more sense because it it can understand and see those attacks, the more sophisticated they become as well. >>So I gotta ask you, since you're very familiar info blocks and you're actually deploying its great solution. But I got this new DD I Layer, which is an abstraction, is always a great evolution. Take away complexity and more functionality. Cloud certainly cloud natives everywhere. That's but if it's for what is the update, if if I'm watching this month, you know I've been running DNS and I know it's out there. It's been running everything. And I got a update, my foundation of my business. I got to make my DNS rock solid. What's the new update? What's info blocks doing now? I know they got DNS chops seeing that on it. What's new about info blocks? What do you say? >>Well, it's, you know, they have a couple things that they've been trying to modify over the last several years. In my opinion, making more DNS like a you know, like software as a service, you know, service on demand, type of approach. That's a yes. So you have the cloud components to where you can take a lot of the heavy lifting, maybe off of your network team's shoulders. Because it is, it is. Um, I think people will be surprised how many customers out there. I have, ah, teams that are managing the DNS and even the D HCP aspect that that's not really what their experiences and then they don't They don't have, ah, true, maybe background Indians, and so having something that can help make that easier. It's almost, you know, hey, maybe used this term it almost sounds like it's too simple, but it's almost like a plug and play approached for some. For some environments, you know you're able to pop that in, and a lot of probably the problems they've been dealing with and not realizing what the root cause was will be fixed. So that's always a huge component with with info blocks. But their security is really what's come about in the last several years, Um, and and back as a school district, you know, our besides securing traffic, which every customer has to do, um, we have our you know, we're We have a lot of laws and regulations around filtering with with students and teachers. So anyone that's using a campus own device And so for us this I don't think people realized that the maturity that the filtering aspect of the blocks one defence now it's it's really evolved over the last couple of years. It's become a really, really good product and, like I said earlier, just work seamlessly with the data security. So it is going to be using >>an SD Wan unpacked everything. You go regular root level DNs is it? So I gotta ask you. How is the info blocks helping you keep network services running in system secure? >>Well, I think I think we're more on just the DNs d It does R d eight DNS and DCP. So from that standpoint, you know, in the five years almost we've been running that aspect. We have had very little if if maybe one or two incidents of problems with, you know from a DNS TCP so so are our users are able to connect, you know, when they turn on their computer To them, the Internet's up. You know, there's no there's no bumps in the road stopping them from from being able to connect. So that's a huge thing. You know, you don't have to deal with those Those constant issues again is a small team that just takes time away from the big projects. You're trying to, um, and then to the being able to now combine things. Security filtering solution. Uh, that alone has probably saved us. Oh, we'll probably you know, upwards of 500 man hours in the last eight months. So where normally we would be spending those hours again, troubleshooting issues that false positives, things like that. And there's a small team that just sucks the life out of you when you have to. You always spend time on that. >>I mean, you always chasing your tails. Almost. You want to be productive. Automation plays >>a >>key role in that, >>right? Yeah. >>So I got to ask you, you know, just a general question. I'm curious. You know, one of the things I see is sprawling of devices. WiFi was a great example that put an access point up a rogue access point, you know, as you get more connections. De HCP was amazing about this is awesome. But also, you had also de HCP problem. You got the the key Management is not just around slinging more d HDP around. So you got the trend? Is more connections on the eyepiece? Not how does info blocks make that easier? Because for people who may not know, the DNS ends announcing TCP and IP address management. They're all kind of tied together. Right? So this >>is the >>magic of DD I in my head. I want to get your thoughts on how you see that. Evolving. >>Yeah, I think that's another kind of back twice. It's kind of almost like a plug and play for a lot of customer environments. They're getting, you know, you're getting the DSP, DNs and eye Pam all wrapped in once you have this product that speaks, well, those languages, if you will and that And, um along with some of the reporting services and things of that nature. Um, when I look for, like, a Mac address in my influx database, I'm not just going to get ah, Mac address and what the i p addresses. I'm not just going to get the DNs like the host name. Maybe you know, the beauty and fully qualified domain name. Either I have the ability to bring in all this information that one. The client is communicating with the DCP DNS server on top of things like metadata that you can configure in the database to help really color in the picture of your network. So when you're looking at what device is using this I p when we talk about rogue devices or things like that, uh, I can get so much more information out of info blocks that almost almost to the point where you're almost being able to nail down the location of where the devices that even if it's a wireless client because it works in conjunction with some of our wireless appointments, too. So within, you know, a matter of minutes we have almost all the information we would need to take whatever action is appropriate for something like that, that getting used to take us hours and hours to troubleshoot. >>Appreciate a lot of the other interviews I've done with the info blocks, folks. One of the things that came out of them is the trailing. You can see the trail they're getting. They got to get in somewhere. DNS is the footprints of there you got? That's the traffic, and that's been helping on a potential attacks in D DOS is, for example, no one knows what that is, but DNS is what he said. A lot of the surface areas, DNS. With the hackers are makes it easier to find things. >>Well, you know, by integrating with the cloud I've I've got, you know, that the cloud based with the blocks one, it added a advanced DNS security, which helps protect skins Adidas as well as any cast to help provide more availability because I'm pushing on my DNs traffic through those cloud servers. It's like I've I'm almost equivalent of a very large organization that would normally spend millions of millions of dollars trying to do this on their own. So I'm getting the benefits and kind of the equivalent from that cloud hybrid approach that normally we would never have have. The resource is, >>Well, then I really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy day to remote into the Cube studios. Talk about next level networking experience, so I want to just ask you, just put your experience hat on. You've been You've seen some waves. You've seen the technology evolve when you hear next level networking and when you hear next level networking experience almost two separate meetings. But next level networking means next level. Next level networking experience means is some experience behind it. One of those two phrases mean to you next level networking and next level networking experience. >>Well, to me, I always look at it as the evolution of being able to have a user experience that's consistent no matter where you're located, with your home in your office and special with in today's environment. We have to be able to provide that consistent experience. But what I think what a lot of people may not think about or my overlook if you're just, you know, more of an end user is along with that experience, it has to be a consistent excess security approach. So if I'm an end user, um, I should be able to have the access the, um and the security, which, you know, you know, filtering all that fun stuff to not just allow me the connectivity, but to bring me, you know, that to keep the secure wherever I met. And ah, um, I think schools, you know, obviously with code and in the one the one that everyone was forced to do. But I think businesses And generally I think that's, you know, years ago, Cisco when I worked with Cisco, we talked about, you know, the remote user of the mobile user and how Cisco is kind of leading, uh, the way on that. And I think, you know, with the nature of things like this pandemic, I think being able to have your your users again have that consistent experience, no matter where they're at is going to be key. And so that's how I see when I think of the network evolution, I think that's how it it has to go. >>Well, we appreciate your your time sharing your insights Has a lot of a lot of people are learning that you've got to pour the concrete to build the building. DNS becoming kind of critical infrastructure. But final question for you. I got you here, you know? How you doing? Actually, schools looks like they're gonna have some either fully virtual for the next semester or some sort of time or set schedule. There's all kinds of different approaches. This is the end of the day. It's still is this big i o t experiment from a traffic standpoint. So new expectations create new solutions. What do you see on the horizon? What challenges do you see as you ride this way? Because you've got a hold down the fort, their school district for 3000 students. And you got the administration and the faculty. So you know What are you expecting? And what do you hope to see Evolve Or what do you want to stay away from? What's your opinion? >>I think? I think my my biggest concern is, you know, making sure our like, our students and staff don't, uh, you know, run into trouble on by say that more from, you know, you know, by being, you know, being exposed to attacks, you know, their data with Delta becomes, you know, comes back to our data as a district. But, you know, the student data, I think I think, you know, with anything kids are very vulnerable. Ah, very role, vulnerable targets for many reasons. You know, they're quick to use technology that quick to use, like social media, things like that. But they're they're probably the first ones to do security Does not, you know, across their mind. So I think my big my big concern is as we're moving this, you know, hybrid, hybrid approach where kids can be in school where they're going to be at home. Maybe they'll change from the days of the week. It'll fluctuate, uh, keeping them secure, you know, protecting them from themselves. Maybe in a way, if I have to be the guy is kind of the grumpy old dad it looked at. I'm okay with wearing that hat. I think that's my biggest. Our concern is providing that type of, uh, stability and security. So parents at the end of that could be, you know, I have more peace of mind that their kids you know, our online even more. It's great >>that you can bring that experience because, you know, new new environments, like whether it zooming or using, try and get the different software tools that are out there that were built for on premise premises. You have now potentially a click here. Click there. They could be a target. So, you know, being safe and getting the job done to make sure they have up time. So the remote access it again. If you've got a new edge now, right? So the edge of the network is the home. Exactly. Yeah. Your service area just got bigger. >>Yeah. Yeah, we're in. You know, I'm everybody's guest, whether they like it or not. >>I appreciate that. Appreciate your time and good luck. And let's stay in touch. Thanks for your time. >>Hey, thanks for having me. You guys have a good rest of your weekend? Day two. State State. >>Thank you very much. It's the Cube's coverage with info blocks for a special next level networking experience. Pop up event. I'm John for the Cube. Your host. Thanks for watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everybody, welcome to this special CUBE conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. We're here with Sanjay Poonen who's the COO of VMware and a good friend of theCUBE. Sanjay great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Dave it's a pleasure. In these new circumstances, shelter at home and remote working. I hope you and your family are doing well. >> Yeah, and back at you Sanjay. Of course I saw you on Kramer Mad Money the other night. I was jealous. I said, "I need Sanjay on to get an optimism injection." You're a great leader And I think, a role model for all of us. And of course the "Go Niners" in the background really incented me to get-- I got my Red Sox cap and we have a lack of sports, but, and we miss it, But hey, we're making the best. >> Okay Red Sox is better than the Patriots. Although I love the Patriots. If i was in the east coast, especially now that Brady's gone. I guess you guys are probably ruing a little bit that Jimmy G came to us. >> I am a huge Tampa Bay fan all of a sudden. I be honest with you. Tom Brady can become a Yankee and I would root for them. I tell you that's how much I love the guy. But anyway, I'm really excited to have you on. It's obviously as you mentioned, these times are tough, but we're making the best do and it's great to see you. You are a huge optimist, but I want to ask you, I want to start with Narendra Modi just announced, basically a lockdown for 21 days. 1.3 billion people in your native country. I wonder if you could give us some, some thoughts on that. >> I'm, my parents live half their time in Bangalore and half here. They happen to be right now in the US, and they're doing well. My dad's 80 and my mom's 77. I go to India a lot. I spent about 18 years of my life there, and the last 32 odd years here and I still go there a lot. Have a lots friends and my family there. And , it's I'm glad that the situation is kind of , as best as they can serve it. It's weird, I was watching some of the social media photos of Bangalore. I tweeted this out last night. The roads look so clean and beautiful. I mean, it looks like 40 years ago when I was growing up. When I would take a bicycle to school. I mean Bangalore's one of the most beautiful cities in India, very green and you can kind of see it all again. And I think, as I've been watching some of the satellite photos of the various big cities to just watch sort of Mother Nature. Obviously, we're in a tough time and, I open my empathy and thoughts and prayers go to every family that's affected by this. And certainly ones who have lost loved ones, but it's sort of, I think it's neat, that we're starting to see some of the beautiful aspects of nature. Even as we deal with the tough aspects of sheltered home. And the incredible tough impacts of this pandemic across the world. >> Yeah, I think you're right. There is a silver lining as much as, our hearts go out to those that are that are suffering. You're seeing the canals in Venice run clear. As you mentioned, the nitrous oxide levels over China. what's going on in Bangalore. So, there is a little bit of light in the end of the tunnel for the environment, I hope. and at least there's an indication that we maybe, need to be more sensitized to this. Okay, let's get into it. I want to ask you, so last week in our breaking analysis. We worked with a data company called ETR down in New York City. They do constant surveys of CIO's. I want to read you something that they came out with just on Monday and get your reaction. Basically, their annual growth and IT spend they're saying, is showing a slight decline for 2020. As a significant number of organizations plan to cut and/or delay IT expenditures due to the coronavirus. Though the current climate may suggest worse many organizations are accelerating spending for 2020 as they ramp up their work-from-home infrastructure. These organizations are offsetting what would otherwise be a notable decline in global IT spend versus last year. Now we've gone from the 4% consensus at the beginning of the year. ETR brought it down to zero percent and then just on Monday, they went to slight negative. But, what's not been reported widely is the somewhat offsetting factor of work-from-home infrastructure. VMware obviously plays there. So I wonder if you could comment on what you're seeing. >> Yeah, Dave, I think , we'll have to see . I'm not an economic pundit. So we're going to have to see what the, IT landscape looks like in the overall sense and we'll probably play off GDP. Certain industries: travel, hospitality, I mean, it's brutal for them. I mean, and I hope that, what I really hope, that's going to happen to that industry, especially there's an infusion through recovery type of bill. Is that no real big company goes under, and goes bankrupt. I mean kind of the situation in 2008. I mean, people wondering what will happen to the Airlines. Boeing, hospital-- these are ic-- some of them like Boeing are iconic brands of the United States and of the world. There's only two real companies that make planes. So we've got to make sure that those industries stay afloat and stay good for the health of the world. Health of the US economy, jobs, and so on. That's always one end. Listen, health and safety of our employees always comes first. Before we even think about that. I always tell people the profits of VMware will wait if you are not well, if your loved ones not well, if your going to take care of people, take care of that first. We will be fine. This too shall pass. But if you're healthy, let's turn our attention because we're not going to just sit at home and play games. We're going to serve our customers. How do we do that? A lot of our customers are adjusting to this new normal. As a result, they have to either order devices with a laptop, screens, things of those kinds, to allow a work-from-home environment to be as close to productive as they work environment. So I expect that there will be a surge in the, sort of, end points that people need. I will have to see how Dell and HP and Lenovo, but I expect that they will probably see some surge in their laptops. As people, kind of, want those in the home and hopefully their supply chains are able to respond. But then with every one of those endpoints and screens that we need now for these types of organizations. You need to manage them, end point management. Often, you need virtual desktops on them. You need to end point security and then in some cases you will probably need, if it's a remote office, branch office, and into the home office, network security and app acceleration. So those Solutions, end point management, Workspace ONE, inclusive of a full-fledged virtual desktop capability That's our product Workspace ONE. Endpoint Securities, Carbon Black and the Network Platform NSX being software-defined was relegated for things like, load balancers and SDWAN capabilities and it's kind of almost feels like good, that we got those solutions, the last three, four years through acquisitions, in many cases. I mean, of course, Airwatch and Nicira were six, seven, eight years ago. But even SD-WAN, we acquired Velocloud three and a half years ago, Carbon Black just four months ago, and Avi in the last year. Those are all parts of that kind of portfolio now, and I feel we were able to, as customers come to us we're not going in ambulance-chasing. But as customers come to us and say, "What do you have as a work-at-home "for business continuity?" We're able to offer them a solution. So we did a webcast earlier this week. Where we talked about, we're calling it work in home with business continuity. It's led with our EUC offerings Workspace ONE. Accompanied by Carbon Black to secure that, and then underneath it, will obviously be the cloud foundation and our Network capabilities of NSX. >> Yeah, so I want to double down on that because it was not, the survey results, showed it was not just collaboration tools. Like Zoom and WebEx and gotomeeting Etc. It was, as you're pointing out, it was other infrastructure that was of VPN's. It was Network bandwidth. It was virtualization, security because they need to secure that work-from-home infrastructure. So a lot of sort of, ancillary activity. It was surprising to me, when I saw the data, that 21% of the CIO's that we surveyed, said that they actually plan on spending more in 2020 because of these factors. And so now we're tracking that daily. And the sentiment changes daily. I showed some other data that showed the CIO sentiment through March. Every day of the survey it dropped. Okay, so it's prudent to be cautious. But nonetheless, people to your point aren't just sitting on their hands. They're not standing still. They're moving to support this new work-from-home normal. >> Yeah, I mean listen, I forgot to say that, Yeah, we are using the video collaboration tools. Zoom a lot. We use Slack. We'll use Teams. So we are, those are accompanied. We were actually one of the first customers to use Zoom. I'm a big fan of my friend Eric Yuan and what they're doing there in modernizing, making it available on a mobile device. Just really fast. They've been very responsive and they reciprocated by using Workspace ONE there. We've been doing ads joined to VMware and zoom in the market for the last several years. So we're a big fan of their technology. So far be it from me to proclaim that the only thing you need here's VMware. There's a lot of other things on the stack. I think the best way, Dave, for us that we've sought to do this is again, I'm very sensitive to not ambulance-chase, which is, kind of go after this. To do it authentically, and the way that authentically is to be, I think Satya Nadella put this pretty well in an interview he did yesterday. Be a first responder to the first responder. A digital first responder, if I could. So when the, our biggest customers are hospital and school and universities and retailers and pharmacies. These are some of our biggest customers. They are looking, in some cases, actually hire more people to serve their communities and customers. And every one of them, as they , hire new people and so and so on, will I just naturally coming to us and when they come to us, serve them. And it's been really gratifying Dave. If I could read you the emails I've been getting the last few days. I got one from a very prominent City, the United States, the mayor's office, the CTO, just thanking us and our people. For being available who are being careful not to, we're being very sensitive to the pricing. To making sure customers don't feel like, in any way, that we're looking at the economics of it will always come just serve your customer. I got an email yesterday from a very large pharmacy. Routinely we were talking to folks in the, in the healthcare industry. University, a president of a school. In fact, Southern New Hampshire University, who I mentioned Jim Cramer. Sent me a note saying, "hey, we're really grateful you even mentioned our name." and I'm not doing this because, Southern New Hampshire University is doing an incredible job of moving a lot of their platform to online to help tens of thousands. And they were one of the early customers to adopt virtual desktops, and the cloud desktops, and the services. So, as we call. So in any of these use cases, I just tell our employees, "Be authentic. "First off take care of your families. "It's really important to take care of your own health and safety. But once you've done that, be authentic in serving our customers." That's what VR has always done. From the days of dying green, to bombers, to Pat, and all of us here now. Take care of our customers and we'll be fine. >> Yeah, and I perfectly understand your sensitivity to that notion of ambulance-chasing and I'm by no means trying to bait you into doing that. But I would stress, the industry needs you and the tech it-- many in the tech industry, like VMware, have very strong balance sheets. They're extremely viable companies and we as a community, as an industry, need companies like VMware to step up, be flexible on pricing, and terms, and payment, and things like that nature. Which it sounds like you're doing. Because the heroes that are on the front lines, they're fighting a battle every day, every hour, every minute and they need infrastructure to be able to work remotely with the stay-at-home mandates. >> I think that's right. And listen, let me talk a little bit of one of the things you talked about. Which is financing and we moved a lot of our business to increasingly, to the cloud. And SaaS and subscription services are a lot more radical than offer license and maintenance. We make that choice available to customers, in many cases we lead with cloud-first solutions. And then we also have financing services from our partners like Dell financial services that really allow a more gradual, radibal payment. Do people want financing? And , I think if there are other scenarios. Jim asked me on his show, "What will you do if one of your companies go bankrupt?" I don't know, that's an unprecedented, we didn't have, we had obviously, the financial crisis. I wasn't here at VMware during the dot-com blow up where companies just went bankrupt in 2000. I was at Informatica at the time. So, I'm sure we will see some unprecedented-- but I will tell you, we have a very fortunate to be profitable, have a good balance sheet. Whatever scenario, if we take care of our customers, I mean, we have been very fortunate to be one of the highest NPS, Net promoter scorer, companies in the industry. And , I've been reaching out to many of our top customers. Just a courtesy, without any agenda other than, we're just checking in. A friend in need is a friend indeed. It's a line that I remembered. And just reach out your customers. Hey listen. Checking in. No, other than can we help you, if there's anything and thank you, especially for ones who are retailers, pharmacies, hospitals, first responders. Thank them for what they're doing to serve many of their people. Especially people in retail. Think about the people who have to go into warehouses to service us, to deliver the stuff that comes to our home. I mean, these people are potentially at risk, but they do it. Put on masks. Braving health situations. That often need the paycheck. We're very grateful for that, and our hope is that this world situation, listen, I mentioned it on on TV as a kind of a little bit of a traffic jam. I love to ski and when I go off and to Tahoe, I tell my family, "I don't know how long it's going to take." with check up on Waze or Google Maps and usually takes four hours, no traffic. Every now and then it'll take five, six, seven. Worst case eight. I had some situation, never happen to me but some of my friends would just got stuck there and had to sleep in their car. But it's pretty much the case, you will eventually get there. I was talking to my dad, who is 80, and he's doing well. And he said, this feels a little bit like World War Two because you're kind of, in many places there. They had a bunker, shelter. Not just shelter in place, but bunker shelter in that time. But that lasted, whatever five, six years. I don't think this is going to last five, six years. It may be five, six months. It might be a whole year. I don't know. I can guarantee it's not going to be six years. So it won't be as bad as World War two. It certainly won't be as bad as the Spanish Flu. Which took 39 people and two percent of the world. Including five percent of my country, India in the 1918 to 1920 period, a hundred years ago. So we will get through this. I like, we shall overcome. I'm not going to sing it for you. It's one of my favorite Louis Armstrong songs, but find ways by which you encourage, uplift people. Making sure, it is tough, it is very tough times and we have to make sure that we get through this. That jobs are preserved as best as we can because that's the part I'm really, really concerned about. The loss of jobs and how we're going to recover as US economy, but we will make it through this. >> Yeah, and I want to sort of second what you're saying. That look, I know there are a lot of people at home that going a little bit stir crazy and this, the maybe a little bit of depression setting in. But to your point, we have to be empathic for those that are suffering. The elderly, who are in intensive care and also those frontline workers. And then I love your optimism. We will get through this. This is not the Spanish Flu. We have, it's a different world, a different technology world. Our focus, like many other small businesses is, we obviously want to survive. We want to maintain our full employment. We want to serve our customers and we, as you, believe that that is the recipe for getting through this. And so, I love the optimism. >> And listen, and we can help be a part of my the moment you texted me and said, "Hey, can I be in your show?" If it helps you drive, whatever you need, sponsorship revenue, advertising. I'm here and the same thing for all of our friends who have to adjust the way in which the wo-- we want to be there to help them. And I've chosen as best as I can, in terms of how I can support my family, the sort of five, five of us at home now. All fighting over bandwidth, the three kids, and my wife, and I. To be positive with them, to be in my social media presence, as best as possible. Every day to be positive in what I tweet out to the world And point people to a hope of what's going to come. I don't know how long this is going to last. But I can tell you. I mean, just the fact that you and I are talking over video interview. High fidelity, reasonably high fidelity, high bandwidth. The ability to connect. I mean it is a whole lot better than a lot of what happened in World War 2 or the Spanish flu. And I hope at the end of it, some of us, some of this will forever change our life. I hope for for example in a lot of our profession. We have to travel to visit customers. And now that I'm building some of these relationships virtually. I hope that maybe my travel percentage will drop. It's actually good for the environment, good for my family life. But if we can lower that percentage, still get things done through Zoom calls, and Workspace ONE, and things of those kinds, that would be awesome. So that's how I think about the way in which I'm adapting my life. And then I set certain personal goals. This year, for example, we're expanding a lot of our focus in security. We have a billion dollar security business and we're looking to grow that NSX, Common Black, Workspace ONE, and accompanying tools and I made it a goal to try and meet at all my sales teams. A thousand C-ISOs. I mean off I know a lot of CIO's in the 25 years, I've had, maybe five, six thousand of them in the world. And blessed to build that relationship over the years of my SAP and VMware experience, but I don't know. I mean, I knew probably 50 or 100. Maybe a few hundred CISO's. And now that we have a portfolio it's relevant to grant them and I think very compelling across network security and End Point security. We own the companies with such a strong portfolio in both those areas. I'm reaching out to them and I'm happy to tell you, I connected, I've got the names of 1,000 of the top CISO's in the Fortune 1000, Global 2000, and connecting with many of them through LinkedIn and other mixers. I hope I talked to many of them through the course of the year. And many of them will be virtual conversations. Again, just to talk to them about being a trusted advisor to us. Seeing if we can help them. And then of course, there will be a product pitch for NSX and Carbon Black and how we're different from whoever it is, Palo Alto and F5 and Netscaler and the SD line players or semantic McAfee Crowdstrike. We're differentiated so I want to certainly earn some of the business. But these are ways in which you adjust to a virtual kind of economy. Where I'm not having to physically go and meet them. >> Yeah, and we share your optimism and those CISO's are, they're heroes, superheroes on the front line. I'll tell ya a quick aside. So John Furrier and I, we're in Barcelona. When really, the coronavirus came to our heightened awareness and John looked at me and said, "Dave we've been doing digital for 10 years. "We have to take all of the software that we've developed, "all these assets and help our customers pivot." So we share that optimism and we're actually lucky to be able to have the studios and be able to have these conversations with you guys. So again, we share that, that optimism. I want to ask you, just on guidance. A lot of companies have come out and said we're not giving guidance anymore. I didn't see anything relative to VMware. Have you guys announced anything on guidance in terms of how you're going to communicate? Where are you at with that? >> No, I think we're just, I mean listen, we take this very carefully because of reg FD and the regulations of public company. So we just allow the normal quarterly ins. And of outside of that, if our CFO decides they may. But right now we're just continuing business as usual. We're in the middle of our, kind of, whatever, middle of our quarter. Quarter ends April. So work hard do the best we can in all the regions, be available for all of our teams. Pat, myself, and others we're, to the extent that we're healthy and we're doing well, but thank God, is reach out to CISO's and CIO's and CTO's and CEOs and help them. And I believe people will spend money. The questions we have to go over. And I think the stronger will survive. The companies with better balance sheet and unfortunately, some of the weaker companies won't. And I think quite frankly, if you do your job well. I don't mean this in any negative sense. The stronger companies will take share in these environments. I was watching a segment for John Chambers. He has been through a number of different, when I know him, so an I have, I've talked to him about some of the stuff. He will tell you that he, advises is a lot of his companies now. From the experiences he saw in 2008, 2001, in many of the crisis and supply chain issues. This is a time where leadership counts. The strong get stronger. Never waste a good crisis, as Winston Churchill said. And as you do that, the strong will come strong because you figure out ways by which, if you're going to make changes that were planned for one or two years from now. Maybe a good time to make them is now. And as you do that you communicate a vision for where you're going. Very clearly to your employees. Again incessantly over and over again. They, hopefully, are able to repeat it in their own words in a simple fashion, and then you get all of your employees in our case 30,000 plus employees of VMware lined up. So one of the things that we've been doing a lot of these days is communicate, communicate, communicate, internally. I've talked a lot about our communication with customer. But inside, our employees, we do calls with our top leaders over Zoom. Calls, intimate calls, and many, often we're adjusting to where I'll say a few words. I have a mandatory every two week goal with all of my senior most leaders. I'll speak for about five minutes and then for the next 25 minutes, the top 12, 15 of them I listen. To things, I want all of them to speak up. There's nobody who should stay silent, because I want to hear what's going on in that corner of the world. >> But fantastic Sanjay. Well, I mean, Boeing, I heard this morning's going to get some support from the government. And strategically that's very important for our country. Congress finally passed, looks like they're passing that bill, and support which is awesome. It's been, especially for all these small businesses that are struggling and want to maintain full employment. I heard Steve Mnuchin the other day saying, "Look, we're talking about two months of payroll "for people if they agree to keep people employed. "or hire them back." I mean the Fed. people say, oh the FED is out of arrows. The Feds, not out of arrows. I mean, I'm not an economist either. But the Fed. has a lot of bullets in their gun, as they say. So Sanjay, thanks so much. You're an awesome leader and really an inspirational executive and a good friend so thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Dave, always a pleasure. Please say hi to all of my friends, your co-anchors, and the staff at CUBE. Thank them for all their hard work. It's a pleasure to talk to you this morning. I wish you, your family, and your friends and all of our community, stay safe and be well. >> Thank you Sanjay and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for the cube and we'll see you next time. (soft music)

>> From the Silicon Angle Media Office in Boston Massachusetts, it's "The Cube." (groovy techno music) Now, here's your host, Dave Vellante. >> Hello, everyone. The rise of open source is really powering the digital economy. And in a world where every company is essentially under pressure to become a software firm, open source software really becomes the linchpin of digital services for both incumbents and, of course, digital natives. Here's the challenge, is when developers tap and apply open source, they're often bringing in hundreds, or even thousands of lines of code that reside in open sourced packages and libraries. And these code bases, they have dependencies, and essentially hidden traps. Now typically, security vulnerabilities in code, they're attacked after the software's developed. Or maybe thrown over the fence to the sec-ops team and SNYK is a company that set out to solve this problem within the application development life cycle, not after the fact as a built-on. Now, with us to talk about this mega-trend is Peter McKay, a friend of The Cube and CEO of SNYK. Peter, great to see you again. >> Good to see you, dude. >> So I got to start with the name. SNYK, what does it mean? >> SNYK, So Now You Know. You know, people it's sneakers sneak. And they tend to use the snick. So it's SNYK or snick. But it is SNYK and it stands for So Now You Know. Kind of a security, so now you know a lot more about your applications than you ever did before. So it's kind of a fitting name. >> So you heard my narrative upfront. Maybe you can add a little color to that and provide some additional background. >> Yeah, I mean, it's a, you know, when you think of the larger trends that are going on in the market, you know, every company is going through this digital transformation. You know, and every CEO, it's the number one priority. We've got to change our business from, you know, financial services, healthcare, insurance company, whatever, are all switching to digital, you know, more of a software company. And with that, more software equals more software risk and cybersecurity continues to be, you know, a major. I think 72% of CEOs worry about cybersecurity as a top issue in protecting companies' data. And so for us, we've been in the software in the security space for the four and a half years. I've been in the security space since, you know, Watchfire 20 years ago. And right now, with more and more, as you said, open source and containers, the challenge of being able to address the cybersecurity issues that have never been more challenging. And so especially when you add the gap between the need for security professionals and what they have. I think it's four million open positions for security people. So you know, with all this added risk, more and more open source, more and more digitization, it's created this opportunity in the market where you're traditional approaches to addressing security don't work today, you know? Like you said, throwing it over the fence and having someone in security, you know, check and make sure and finding all these vulnerabilities, and throw it back to developers to fix is very slow and something at this point is not driving to success. >> So talk a little bit more about what attracted you to SNYK early. I mean, you've been with the company, you're at least involved in the company for a couple years now. What were the trends that you saw, and what was it about SNYK that, you know, led you to become an investor and ultimately, CEO? >> Yeah, so four years involved in the business. So you know, I've always loved the security space. I've been in it for a number, almost 20 years. So I enjoy the space. You know, I've watched it. The founder, Guy Podjarny, one of the founders of SNYK, has been a friend of mine for 16 years from back in the Watchfire days. So we've always stayed connected. I've always worked well together with him. And so when you started, and I was on the board, the first board member of the company, so I could see what was going on, and it was this, you know, changing, kind of the right place at the right time in terms of developer first security. Really taking all the things that are going on in the security space that impacts a developer or can be addressed by the developer, and embedding it into the software into that developer community, in a way that developers use, the tools that they use. So it's a developer-first mindset with security expertise built-in. And so when you look at the market, the number of open source container evolution, you know, it's a huge market opportunity. Then you look at the business momentum, just took off over the past, you know, four years. That it was something that I was getting more and more involved in. And then when Guy asked me to join as the CEO, it was like, "Sure, what took you so long?" (Dave laughing) >> We had Guy on at Node JS Summit. I want to say it was a couple years ago now. And what he was describing is when you package, take the example of Node. When you package code in Node, you bring in all these dependencies, kind of what I was talking about there, but the challenge that he sort of described was really making it seamless as part of the development workflow. It seems like that's unique to SNYK. Maybe you could talk about-- >> Yeah, it is. And you know, we've built it from the ground up. You know, it's very difficult. If it was a security tool for security people, and then say, "Oh, let's adapt it for the developer," that is almost impossible. Why I think we've been so successful from the 400,000 developers in the community using Freemium to paid, was we built it from the ground up for developer, embedded into the application-development life cycle. Into their process, the look and feel, easy for them to use, easy for them to try it, and then we focused on just developer adoption. A great experience, developers will continue to use it and expand with it. And most of our opportunities that we've been successful at, the customers, we have over 400 customers. That had been this try, you know, start it with the community. They used the Freemium, they tried it for their new application, then they tried it for all their new, and then they go back and replace the old. So it was kind of this Freemium, land and expand has been a great way for developers to try it, use it. Does it work, yes, buy more. And that's the way we work. >> We're really happy, Peter, that you came on because you've got some news today that you're choosing to share with us in our Cube community. So it's around financing, bring us up to date. What's the news? >> Yeah so you know, I'd say four months ago, five months ago, we raised a $70 million round from great investors. And that was really led by one of our existing investors, who kind of knew us the best and it was you know, Excel Venture, and then Excel Growth came in and led the $70 million round. And part of that was a few new investors that came in and Stripes, which is you know a very large growth equity investor were part of that $70 million round said you know, preempted it and said, "Look it, we know you don't need the money, but we want to," you know, "We want to preempt. We believe your customer momentum," here we did, you know, five or six really large deals. You know, one, 700, seven million, 7.4 million, one's 3.5 million. So we started getting these bigger deals and we doubled since the $70 million round. And so we said, "Okay, we want to make money not the issue." So they led the next round, which is $150 million round, at a valuation of over a billion. That really allows us now to, with the number of other really top tier, (mumbles) and Tiger and Trend and others, who have been part of watching the space and understand the market. And are really helping us grow this business internationally. So it's an exciting time. So you know, again, we weren't looking to raise. This was something that kind of came to us and you know, when people are that excited about it like we are and they know us the best because they've been part of our board of directors since their round, it allows us to do the things that we want to do faster. >> So $150 million raise this round, brings you up to the 250, is that correct? >> Yes, 250. >> And obviously, an up-round. So congratulations, that's great. >> Yeah, you know, I think a big part of that is you know, we're not, I mean, we've always been very fiscally responsible. I mean, yes we have the money and most of it's still in the bank. We're growing at the pace that we think is right for us and right for the market. You know, we continue to invest product, product, product, is making sure we continue our product-led organization. You know, from that bottoms up, which is something we continue to do. This allows us to accelerate that more aggressively, but also the community, which is a big part of what makes that, you know, when you have a bottoms up, you need to have that community. And we've grown that and we're going to continue to invest aggressively and build in that community. And lastly, go to market. Not only invest, invest aggressively in the North America, but also Europe and APJ, which, you know, a lot of the things we've learned from my Veeam experience, you know how to grow fast, go big or go home. You know, are things that we're going to do but we're going to do it in the right way. >> So the Golden Rule is product and sales, right? >> Yes, you're either building it or selling it. >> Right, that's kind of where you're going to put your money. You know, you talk a lot about people, companies will do IPOs to get seen, but companies today, I mean, even software companies, which is a capital-efficient industry, they raise a lot of dough and they put it towards promotion to compete. What are your thoughts on that? >> You know, we've had, the model is very straightforward. It's bottoms up, you know? Developers, you know, there's 28 million developers in the world, you know? What we want is every one of those 28 million to be using our product. Whether it's free or paid, I want SNYK used in every application-development life cycle. If you're one developer, or you're a sales force with standardized on 12,000 developers, we want them using SNYK. So for us, it's get it in the hands. And that, you know, it's not like-- developers aren't going to look at Super Bowl ads, they're not going to be looking. It's you know, it's finding the ways, like the conference. We bought the DevSecCon, you know, the conference for developer security. Another way to promote kind of our, you know, security for developers and grow that developer community. That's not to say that there isn't a security part. Because, you know, what we do is help security organizations with visibility and finding a much more scalable way that gets them out of the, you know, the slows-down, the speed bump to the moving apps more aggressively into production. And so this is very much about helping security people. A lot of times the budgets do come from security or dev-ops. But it's because of our focus on the developer and the success of fixing, finding, fixing, and auto-remediating that developer environment is what makes us special. >> And it's sounds like a key to your success is you're not asking developer to context switch into a new environment, right? It's part of their existing workflow. >> It has to be, right? Don't change how they do their job, right? I mean, their job is to develop incredible applications that are better than the competitors, get them to market faster than they can, than they've ever been able to do before and faster than the competitor, but do it securely. Our goal is to do the third, but not sacrifice on one and two, right? Help you drive it, help you get your applications to market, help you beat your competition, but do it in a secure fashion. So don't slow them down. >> Well, the other thing I like about you guys is the emphasis is on fixing. It's not just alerting people that there's a problem. I mean, for instance, a company like Red Hat, is that they're going to put a lot of fixes in. But you, of course, have to go implement them. What you're doing is saying, "Hey, we're going to do that for you. Push the button and then we'll do it," right? So that, to me, that's important because it enables automation, it enables scale. >> Exactly, and I think this has been one of the challenges for kind of more of the traditional legacy, is they find a whole bunch of vulnerabilities, right? And we feel as though just that alone, we're the best in the world at. Finding vulnerabilities in applications in open source container. And so the other part of it is, okay, you find all them, but prioritizing what it is that I should fix first? And that's become really big issue because the vulnerabilities, as you can imagine, continue to grow. But focusing on hey, fix this top 10%, then the next, and to the extent you can, auto-fix. Auto-remediate those problems, that's ultimately, we're measured by how many vulnerabilities do we fix, right? I mean, finding them, that's one thing. But fixing them is how we judge a successful customer. And now it's possible. Before, it was like, "Oh, okay, you're just going to show me more things." No, when you talk about Google and Salesforce and Intuit, and all of our customers, they're actually getting far better. They're seeing what they have in terms of their exposure, and they're fixing the problems. And that's ultimately what we're focused on. >> So some of those big whales that you just mentioned, it seems to me that the value proposition for those guys, Peter, is the quality of the code that they can develop and obviously, the time that it takes to do that. But if you think about it more of a traditional enterprise, which I'm sure is part of your (mumbles), they'll tell you, the (mumbles) will tell you our biggest problem is we don't have enough people with the skills. Does this help? >> It absolutely-- >> And how so? >> Yeah, I mean, there's a massive gap in security expertise. And the current approach, the tools, are, you know, like you said at the very beginning, it's I'm doing too late in the process. I need to do it upstream. So you've got to leverage the 28 million developers that are developing the applications. It's the only way to solve the problem of, you know, this application security challenge. We call it Cloud Dative Application Security, which all these applications usually are new apps that they're moving into the Cloud. And so to really fix it, to solve the problem, you got to embed it, make it really easy for developers to leverage SNYK in their whole, we call it, you know, it's that concept of shift left, you know? Our view is that it needs to be embedded within the development process. And that's how you fix the problem. >> And talk about the business model again. You said it's Freemium model, you just talked about a big seven figure deals that you're doing and that starts with a Freemium, and then what? I upgrade to a subscription and then it's a land and expand? Describe that. >> Yeah we call it, it's you know, it's the community. Let's get every developer in a community. 28 million, we want to get into our community. From there, you know, leverage our Freemium, use it. You know, we encourage you to use it. Everybody to use our Freemium. And it's full functionality. It's not restricted in anyway. You can use it. And there's a subset of those that are ready to say, "Look it, I want to use the paid version," which allows me to get more visibility across more developers. So as you get larger organization, you want to leverage the power of kind of a bigger, managing multiple developers, like a lot of, in different teams. And so that kind of gets that shift to that paid. Then it goes into that Freemium, land, expand, we call it explode. Sales force, kind of explode. And then renew. That's been our model. Get in the door, get them using Freemium, we have a great experience, go to paid. And that's usually for an application, then it goes to 10 applications, and then 300 developers and then the way we price is by developer. So the more developers who use, the better your developer adoption, the bigger the ultimate opportunity is for us. >> There's a subscription service right? >> All subscription. >> Okay and then you guys have experts that are identifying vulnerabilities, right? You put them into a database, presumably, and then you sort of operationalize that into your software and your service. >> Yeah, we have 15 people in our security team that do nothing everyday but looking for the next vulnerability. That's our vulnerability database, in a large case, is a lot of our big companies start with the database. Because you think of like Netflix and you think of Facebook, all of these companies have large security organizations that are looking for issues, looking for vulnerabilities. And they're saying, "Well okay, if I can get that feed from you, why do I have my own?" And so a lot of companies start just with the database feed and say, "Look, I'll get rid of mine, and use yours." And then eventually, we'll use this scanning and we'll evolve down the process. But there's no doubt in the market people who use our solution or other solution will say our known the database of known vulnerabilities, is far better than anybody else in the market. >> And who do you sell to, again? Who are the constituencies? Is it sec-ops, is it, you know, software engineering? Is it developers, dev-ops? >> Users are always developers. In some cases dev-ops, or dev-sec. Apps-sec, you're starting to see kind of the world, the developer security becoming bigger. You know, as you get larger, you're definitely security becomes a bigger part of the journey and some of the budget comes from the security teams. Or the risk or dev-ops. But I think if we were to, you know, with the user and some of the influencers from developers, dev-ops, and security are kind of the key people in the equation. >> Is your, you have a lot of experience in the enterprise. How do you see your go to market in this world different, given that it's really a developer constituency that you're targeting? I mean, normally, you'd go out, hire a bunch of expensive sales guys, go to market, is that the model or is it a little different here because of the target? >> Yeah, you know, to be honest, a lot of the momentum that we've had at this point has been inbound. Like most of the opportunities that come in, come to us from the community, from this ground up. And so we have a very large inside sales team that just kind of follows up on the inbound interest. And that's still, you know, 65, 70% of the opportunities that come to us both here and Europe and APJ, are coming from the community inbound. Okay, I'm using 10 licenses of SNYK, you know, I want to get the enterprise version of it. And so that's been how we've grown. Very much of a very cost-effective inside sales. Now, when you get to the Googles and Salesforces and Nordstroms of the world, and they have already 500 licenses us, either paid or free, then we usually have more of a, you know, senior sales person that will be involved in those deals. >> To sort of mine those accounts. But it's really all about driving the efficiency of that inbound, and then at some point driving more inbound and sort of getting that flywheel effect. >> Developer adoption, developer adoption. That's the number one driver for everybody in our company. We have a customer success team, developer adoption. You know, just make the developer successful and good things happen to all the other parts of the organization. >> Okay, so that's a key performance indicator. What are the, let's wrap kind of the milestones and the things that you want to accomplish in the next, let's call it 12 months, 18 months? What should we be watching? >> Yeah, so I mean it continues to be the community, right? The community, recruiting more developers around the globe. We're expanding, you know, APJ's becoming a bigger part. And a lot of it is through just our efforts and just building out this community. We now have 20 people, their sole job is to build out, is to continue to build our developer community. Which is, you know, content, you know, information, how to learn, you know, webinars, all these things that are very separate and apart from the commercial side of the business and the community side of the business. So community adoption is a critical measurement for us, you know, yeah, you look at Freemium adoption. And then, you know, new customers. How are we adding new customers and retaining our existing customers? And you know, we have a 95% retention rate. So it's very sticky because you're getting the data feed, is a daily data feed. So it's like, you know, it's not one that you're going to hook on and then stop at any time soon. So you know, those are the measurements. You look at your community, you look at your Freemium, you look at your customer growth, your retention rates, those are all the things that we measure our business by. >> And your big pockets of brain power here, obviously in Boston, kind of CEO's prerogative, you got a big presence in London, right? And also in Israel, is that correct? >> Yeah, I would say we have four hubs and then we have a lot of remote employees. So, you know, Tel Aviv, where a lot of our security expertise is, in London, a lot of engineering. So between London and Tel Aviv is kind of the security teams, the developers are all in the community is kind of there. You know, Boston, is kind of more go to market side of things, and then we have Ottawa, which is kind of where Watchfire started, so a lot of good security experience there. And then, you know, we've, like a lot of modern companies, we hired the best people wherever we can find them. You know, we have some in Sydney, we've got some all around the world. Especially security, where finding really good security talent is a challenge. And so we're always looking for the best and brightest wherever they are. >> Well, Peter, congratulations on the raise, the new role, really, thank you for coming in and sharing with The Cube community. Really appreciate it. >> Well, it's great to be here. Always enjoy the conversations, especially the Patriots, Red Sox, kind of banter back and forth. It's always good. >> Well, how do you feel about that? >> Which one? >> Well, the Patriots, you know, sort of strange that they're not deep into the playoffs, I mean, for us. But how about the Red Sox now? Is it a team of shame? All my friends who were sort of jealous of Boston sports are saying you should be embarrassed, what are your thoughts? >> It's all about Houston, you know? Alex Cora, was one of the assistant coaches at Houston where all the issues are, I'm not sure those issues apply to Boston, but we'll see, TBD. TBD, I am optimistic as usual. I'm a Boston fan making sure that there isn't any spillover from the Houston world. >> Well we just got our Sox tickets, so you know, hopefully, they'll recover quickly, you know, from this. >> They will, they got to get a coach first. >> Yeah, they got to get a coach first. >> We need something to distract us from the Patriots. >> So you're not ready to attach an asterisk yet to 2018? >> No, no. No, no, no. >> All right, I like the optimism. Maybe you made the right call on Tom Brady. >> Did I? >> Yeah a couple years ago. >> Still since we talked what, two in one. And they won one. >> So they were in two, won one, and he threw for what, 600 yards in the first one so you can't, it wasn't his fault. >> And they'll sign him again, he'll be back. >> Is that your prediction? I hope so. >> I do, I do. >> All right, Peter. Always a pleasure, man. >> Great to see you. >> Thank you so much, and thank you for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. (groovy techno music)

>> Announcer: From Miami Beach, Florida, it's theCUBE, covering Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019, brought to you by Acronis. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. It's theCUBE's two days of coverage here in Miami Beach at the Fountainebleau Hotel for the Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier, your host, James Slaby, the director of cyber protection for Acronis is here on theCUBE. Thanks for coming in, it's great to see you. >> John, great to be here, thanks. >> So, we talked on the day one reception that we had. We were having a chat about the cyber protection positioning, and how the confluence of data protection is emerging in this new modernization of the enterprise. >> Sure. >> Sports teams are out there, it's obvious pick customers, so it's happening. >> Absolutely, it's something that the analyst community has been talking about for years. And certainly, I think people in the data protection space, on the vendor side, in the cyber security space, have been seeing it coming. I think there's been a little bit of weariness of it on the end user side, particularly if you look at the large enterprise space where you've got fairly large teams and they're specialized. You've got the security folks on one side, data protection IT operations on the other, and often different budgets, they don't necessarily like each other, or talk to each other a whole lot, sometimes competing agendas. But frankly the way the world is going with the kind of explosion in data, the fact that data's growing five times faster than IT staffing is able to grow, and with this explosion in the threat environment, not just cyber criminals though they've gotten a lot cleverer in recent years, much more industrial in their methods, basically I like to compare them to Salesforce, but evil, right? So, they've industrialized their production methods, >> And they're causing disruption. They are disrupting the continuity of a business by hijacking their data before there is ransomware or zero-day malware, it's here, it's happening all the time. >> Yeah, and it's not just the criminals now. You have state actors involved. North Korea basically runs itself as a criminal enterprise these days to fund the regime because of economic sanctions. And they're very well-funded, they're very expert, and with tools like ransomware and cryptojacking at their disposal, they're sustaining themselves. So, between the threats on all sides, and the explosion in data, the operation side of the house, and the security side of the house really have to come together. It's not a luxury that frankly small to medium businesses have ever had. You typically have much smaller staffs. It's one, two, maybe three people handling all of that. So, in some respects that convergence is going to be a welcome simplification of life to them. >> What's interesting to me and I want to get your thoughts and reaction to this is that with the Cloud computing, and this new modern era of compute power and software defined stuff, you're seeing categories that used to be niche white spaced categories become full-blown important areas. I'll give you an example. Network management turned into observability. Configuration management's now automation. So, at the plumbing level infrastructure when they start to see stuff emerge that was once a feature and now important. Data protection involves a cyber protection. Again, it's elevating an importance because the game's changing, but it's still the same. It's data protection, but data's everywhere, but cyber's the driver. This is an interesting dynamic, and I think you pointed that out, again, on our first night, it's highlighted there. Are all the analysts seeing it this way? And because we're seeing, observability, what is observability? It's network management on steroids. So, this new modern architecture of an enterprise is our thinking like a system, and cyber protection is a new, I guess category. Well, it's not really a new category, it's data protection or cyber threats and cyber things. >> I think it's a useful coinage to capture in a couple of words, this convergence of classic data protection disaster recovery kind of functionality with cyber security. I do see the analyst community having anticipated the trend by a couple of years, Forrester with their zero trust model is a slightly different perspective on it, but ultimately it puts data at the center of everything. You've got to protect data, you've got to protect people from stealing it, you've got to defend against people tampering with it. And once you start putting data at the center of your world, then all those functions whether they're classic IT operations functions, or what we historically associate with cyber security, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. The challenge is to find ways to achieve those basic functions in a way that is managing the complexity, you've got an explosion of data sources, an explosion of data volume, here comes the Internet of things, here comes 5G wireless, suddenly everyone's going to be storing 10 terabytes of data on their smart phones. So, you've got a lot more data in a lot more places to defend against. And the bad guys are coming up with increasingly sophisticated new ways to get at it. So, looking at it as data first, and I think what our MSP and VAR partners, and what their customers are asking for are ways to help us manage that process in a way that's simpler to manage, that's cheaper, and can defend against these kind of new more sophisticated threats. >> More threats, the complexity is increasing, data's increasing, the costs are increasing, and it all revolves around the digital business as data, and the Red Sox and the sports teams encapsulate that because their product's on the field, but also they have a business to run, they got fans to serve, their consumers, it's a digital business model, it's a data. >> Yeah, they look sort of like extreme examples today. Our business doesn't need our F1, our Formula One partners to capture the racetrack data from a rocket ship with a 1,000 sensors in it, and real time telemetry, but that's only looks extreme today. We're not very far away from having to handle that kind of data in real time in our business. So, in the same way that the Red Sox are capturing all kinds of video information and analytics, and analyzing the performance of their players, we're going to be doing similar kinds of data collection and processing on business information in just a few short years. So, it's useful to have leading edge partners like that, but the rest of us aren't really far behind-- >> Well, I think the platform play is very interesting. You guys put a lot of work into that. Obviously you can't do that overnight. Many years have gone into that. Having an open ecosystem is key. You mentioned VARs and partners earlier, this is a big part of the business model of Acronis, and so that's ultimately the true test of a product because the channel is a very efficient business mechanism. >> Yes. (laughs) >> If it works and it's profitable, and creates happy customers, their customers are happy, they keep their customers. They're a very tough crowd too as well. What are your partners in VARs and ISVs, what's in demand of them from their customers? Because they're selling your product as a solution, putting servers to run, but they have customers too, and they're looking for them to be a player and serve them well. What are they hearing? What's their customer customer? >> Yeah, you're right, they're absolutely, our partners are our key source of intel on what the buyers ultimately want. And again your typical buyer, let's say it's a small or medium business for argument's sake here, is confronting the fact that there's a giant labor shortage in cyber security talent at the moment. So, in two years there'll be 3 1/2 million cyber security job vacancies worldwide. I tell young people I know that are coming out of high school or college, go into cyber security, there going to be a lot of work there in the coming years. This is advice I just gave to my nephew. And they can't compete for the existing talent that's out there. If you're a great cyber security talent, you're going to want to work for a managed service provider where you're constantly facing new challenges, new customers, new technologies, it's the great Petri dish to learn and hone your craft, and move up in the world or maybe you go into the large enterprise space, cyber protection staff there where the pay is a little bit better. It's very tough for an SMB to compete with that. They just can't find, retain, or pay the talent that they need to keep their own data secure. So, that's a huge one just from-- >> And they're also under a lot of pressure because the way these supply chain relationships work is I could have the best security on the planet, but if you're my business partner and you don't have good data hygiene, my data's exposed through you because we're working together. Listen, this is a really dynamic. >> Yeah, and it's kind of an interesting, it's a bit of ancillary topic here I think, but just a tax on elements of the supply chain like managed service providers themselves as something that has raised its head. So, as a buyer, you have to evaluate whether your provider is taking appropriate steps to protect themselves because if they can't do that, then you will be someone who's intimately connected with them that will be vulnerable to the same evils that befall them. >> I hear that a lot from people that are selling security, and, or data protection to customers is that there's now requirements in the sales process to do it, and I don't want to say audit, that's not the right word, the word we're looking for, but inspection of how the data's being handled. Obviously, you've got GDPR out there which is a whole 'nother animal, but this is now a real criteria so, IMSP, I have to build that out myself. Is this where they are using you guys? This is where there seems to be a dynamic where you guys are doing well, certainly ransomware's been a big part of it too. >> So, they have a couple of challenges, our partners do. One is beating that customer requirement to protect me, make sure you've got the expertise that I can't retain to provide security for my data, do it in a way that's cheap, do it that it will grow as my data volumes are growing, and automate it wherever possible, right. I do not want to have to worry about this stuff. The MSPs have both technical and business challenges themselves. From the technical side their problems are similar to the customer's. They need any solution they have to be simple, they need it to be cheap, automation is super important to them, and they need to keep ahead of the security gap. From a business perspective you've got additional challenges like, how do I grow my individual, my average revenue per user? How do I offer additional services that are going to increase my traction with them so that I can reproduce churns, that I want to be stickier, right? How do I get hooks into my existing billing and provisioning kind of systems? So, the customer has a range of challenges that are reflected mainly in technical terms in the service provider, but the service provider has their own businesses sectors that are unique. And this is in part how things like Acronis Cyber Protect at cyber infrastructure, and the opening up of Acronis Cyber Platform so that their ISVs and the providers of the tools that they're using can get tighter integration into the infrastructure that they-- >> You guys are now just open APIs, just opening up the API's developer network and then the customer portal, big news here at the show. >> Yes, yup! >> You guys were holding back from us, well, now you've got it covered, but this speaks to the ecosystem. Now, I got to ask you about the competition, the industry, RSA, these big conferences, buzzword bingo goes on all the time, hype is like, I got this, I'm throwing a platform. >> What's your favorite game? >> I wouldn't be surprised if cyber protection, cyber protect is a category as it emerged people start whitewashing. We've got a platform, so, people are talking the platform game. What is hype and reality? Take us through unpacking your opinion where the hype and reality, because customers are trying to squint through the noise, and look at the hype versus the reality. How do you distinguish between what's real and what's not? >> Well, I would say a useful starting point is, allow me to toot Acronis's horn here with what we have rolled out with Acronis Cyber Protect. So, it starts with our classic value proposition which is backup and disaster recovery. The next step is something that we got into the market with several years ago which is anti-malware that is buttressed by machine learning and artificial intelligence. So, the goal here is not just to be able to identify, and stop known threats by their signatures, the classic antivirus approach given the increasing sophistication of malware developers, you have to be able to identify stuff by the way it behaves. So, even if you've never seen it before you have to be able to say, that looks suspicious, I've got to stop that, and do it in a way that's smart enough that you're not halting up innocent processes that might be doing something that vaguely looks suspicious, right? You've got to stop the real threats and minimize the false positives, right. Now add to that things like health and performance monitoring. So, the capability from the exact same console to monitor the health of your hardware, including being able to predict drive failure rates, again, with the help of artificial intelligence to the point where given that half your hard drives are going to fail in five years, we can predict within 98% accuracy when a hard drive is going to fail, and that's a giant way to head off a big data loss is move that data before the hard drive fails, but also monitor the performance of your network, your applications, your operating system, as well as hardware performance. >> It's an end to end holistic view of data. >> Yeah, it's something that you might be able to do with multiple tools and maybe cruder tools, like the smart capability for drive analysis has been around for a while, but the name hasn't aged well. Health monitoring, remote desktop, right. So, the ability, really important to an MSP to reach out and troubleshoot issues on a remote desktop including things like managing their windows defender environment, so that you're making sure that the end user isn't violating your security policies because they think it might improve their performance a little to shut off some features of Windows Defender, right? Where I think it really gets interesting is in capabilities like vulnerability assessment. So, the ability to scan an endpoint and figure out which revisions of their operating system, their traditional productivity applications, all their third party applications, where they are relative to the patches that are out there to close known vulnerabilities to malware threats. And then based on that proceed to patch management where you figure out a sensible, scalable, manageable way to install patches on all those devices across your organization which is part of the daily grind for operations people, frankly. So, giving them all of those tools in one place with a single interface, oh, by the way let's throw in URL filtering, another capability that really will keep your users out of a lot of trouble, keep them from visiting sites where malware loves to lurk, because where pirated software and these kind of things, places you shouldn't go that people tend to go, and invite the evils of the world. So, imagine all these things on a single pane of glass that you need one organization with one training regimen to operate, and suddenly you see the kind of efficiencies that you're going to generate as a service provider in terms of lowering your own costs, automating a lot of the functions that you previously had to do manually, and so on. Sorry, I had to finish that, sorry. >> No problem, that's a huge-- >> That's the rest of the story on cyber protection. >> Well, this highlights to me what I think is a very comprehensive offering. You guys have comprehensive storing. You have infrastructure, a platform, and then a set of services, that's deep, deep bench of technology. >> Well, there's a lot of innovation in there as well. So, this was something that had never occurred to me that fortunately occurred to our RND people which is the notion of why don't we start scanning our backup images instead of relying on endpoint scans. So, we've got a recent image backup, why don't we scan our copy of it? We can do the vulnerability assessment, the patch management of it, and, oh, by the way, that means that we can do things like if you've got custom applications that maybe sometimes don't play nice with newer revs of the OS or patches, you can actually test that offline. Do those upgrades, install those patches, run the application, if it doesn't work, if it gives you performance problems, or functionality problems, you know not to roll those patches out across your environment. And those are kind of clever things that, oh, by the way, oh, this is the burden and potential conflicts of scans on the endpoints. So, again, I-- >> That shows the benefit of the ISV market too, as more stuff comes on, the benefits of the collective ecosystem getting right back into the customer-- >> And it works a couple of ways. So, some of my independent software vendors are going to integrate functionality from Cyber Protect into their products in a way that is sort of invisible. They'll be Acronis inside, but their customers won't necessarily know it. It also means that MSPs and the vendors that serve them with a variety of tools can more tightly integrate their functionality with Cyber Protect at the core of the managed service providers offering, and provide value to both sides of that equation as well. >> You guys have great validations platform, solutions, robust ecosystem, now you'll bring out the developers, so congratulations. James, thanks for coming on, and sharing the insight, it's appreciated. >> John, thanks so much, this was great. >> All right, Cube coverage here in Miami Beach for the Acronis Global Cyber Summit 2019. I'm John Furrier, stay with us for more day two coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

>>From Miami beach, Florida. It's the queue covering a chronics global cyber summit 2019 brought to you by Acronis. >>Okay, welcome back. Everyone's the cubes covers two days here in Miami beach. The Fontainebleau hotel for the Kronos has global cyber summit 2019. It's inaugural event around a new category emerging called cyber protection. Um, this isn't a wave that's going to be part of the modernization a week we've been calling cloud 2.0 or whatever you want to call it. A complete modernization of the it technology stack and development environment includes core data center to the edge and beyond. Our next guest is Dan havens, chief growth officer per Chronis. Dan, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. And thank you for having me, Dan. So, uh, what does chief growth officer mean? You guys obviously are growing, so obviously we see some growth there. Yeah, numbers are there. What she, what she, we have a couple of divisions in the company where we see we can really accelerate the business. >>So we came in and we wanted to make some large investments here. One of those areas was sports. You're seeing race cars out here on the floor, you're seeing all kinds of baseball teams, soccer teams, and we're talking to everybody. We have 40 teams now that are using our technology for competitive advantage on the field. Uh, the other areas, OEM, so, uh, original equipment manufacturers, everybody from making a camera to a server somewhere, having a Cronus be embedded, that's a big angle for us and we just didn't have a lot of focus. So I came into to build those divisions. I've actually joined the CEO before in a prior life in his last company and did something similar for him on a similar, uh, back there and we had violent success. So yeah, it's been a lot of fun. I've been here a year and a half and we're killing it. >>We got triple digit growth in the sporting category and similar in the OEM. It's interesting, you know, I look at a lot of these growth companies and the kind of a formula. You see, you guys have a very efficient and strong product platform engineering group. A lot of developers, a lot of smart people in the company, and a strong customer facing for the lack of a better word, field. The group you're in, you're involved, this is not, and you got marketing supporting it in the middle. Yep. So nice, efficient organizational structure on a massive way. But cyber, because this isn't your grandfather's data projection, this is a platform. What's the pitch? So the key here for us is we have to always say, and, and it, it's, it's hard to simplify and we're easy. In fact, we're cost-effective. Sometimes I'll even say I'm cheap and I'm easy. >>And that does not go out of style for an enterprise, right? So our ability to take good old fashioned backup and these things that other people need and basically extend that across. Now I can have one window where I can control, keep 'em out. If somebody gets in or from the inside or a disaster happens. I from this one place can recover my data. I'm secure with my data. I have the ability to notarize my data. So this one, and by the way, key simple interface. Customers love simple. This one simple interface to be able to do that. Now it takes a lot of engineering that goes behind that. I have plenty of, I have fancy engineering degrees and all that, but I try forget that when I'm talking to a customer because at the end of the day it's gotta make sense. A mind that doesn't know, says no. >>And I think we do a pretty good job of simplifying the message, but as they get under the covers and they roll it out, they recognize that there's, you know, we, we, we have more engineers per employee capita than any company that would have 1600 employees. Simple, easy to use. It reduces the steps it takes to do something as a winning business model. You kind of come from that school you mentioned, you know, cheap and easy. That's what is key. Yeah. But we're in a world where complexity is increasing and costs are increasing. Yep. These are two dynamics that are facing every enterprise, cyber it everywhere. What's your story when you want to educate that person so they can get to that? Yes. I want to work with you guys. What's that? What's that getting to? Yes. Processed motion look like. So the beautiful part is is we sell software right now. >>Software can be purchased complex. You install it, you can figure, you do everything yourself. We also can sell that from a cloud standpoint. So now you consume it like a service. Just like you consume Netflix at home, right? I can now consume this protection as a service. You have bolts spectrums covered. Most enterprises are somewhere in the middle. We call that hybrid. So the idea here is that there's going to be components where this data's not leaving these four walls. It might be government agency, it might be some compliance factor, but the ability to be able to say yes anywhere on that spectrum, it makes it very easy for an executive to say, okay, but we have a very, as you leverage the cloud, the OnRamp for this can be as simple as turning on the surface and pointing it at a data source. I mean, you're a student of history, obviously even in this business for awhile, you've done been there longer than you'd think. >>Data protection was kind of like that. Afterthought, backup data recovery all based upon, yeah, we might have an outage or a flood or hurricane Sandy who knows what's going to happen. You know, some force majority out there might happen, but security is a constant disrupter of business continuity. The data's being hijacked and ransomware to malware attacks. This is a major disruption point of a world that was supposed to be a non disruptive operational value proposition. Yeah, so the world has changed. They went from a niche, well, we've got their architecture of throwing back up. You've got to think about it from day one at the beginning. This seems to be your, your story for the company. You think about security from the beginning with data protection. There's only one club in the bag, so to speak. Talk about that dynamic and how's that translating into your customer's storytelling customer engagements to show you, you used an interesting word at the beginning, disaster recovery years ago, I started my tech industry in 1992 right? >>Disaster recovery is when we're going to have a flood or a hurricane and the building's going to burn down. What we find is most of our customers, that's certainly happens, but that's not the driver. The driver now is somebody after my data because the world has changed. Not only has the amount of data we're collecting change, but the ability to illegally monetize somebody else's data has become reality and you have social media that is socializes if you get breached and so forth. So there's a number of drivers. Number one, I don't want to be turned out of business. Number two, I don't want to be ransom. Then number three, I certainly don't want to do the cover of the wall street journal tomorrow morning as a top executive who looked past data. We literally watch brands, I won't mention the brand now, but a very large fortune 1000 what's called out yesterday. >>We see it every few days and we watched the carnage of their brand get deluded because they weren't protected. So I think it's the perfect storm up. I've got a ton of data, so it's coming in from all directions. Secondly, I I'm concerned about, you know, my brand and been able to protect that data and then you know, what do I do? And the disaster in this case is not necessarily flood or fire. It's that somebody from the inside or outside got in the gym. Pretend that I'm a decision maker. I'm like, my head's exploding. I'm got all this carnage going on. I don't want to get fired yet. I know I'm exposed. Nothing's yet happened yet. Maybe I settled the ransomware thing, but I know I'm not in a good place. What's your story to any, what's your pitch to me? What's in it for me? Tell me. >>Tell me the posture and the, well, we're halfway home. If you say, I know I'm not in a good place, right? Cause oftentimes somebody has to get bit first or they have to see their neighbor get bit first and then they say, Hey come in. One of my first plays would be let's find out what place you really are. I can do that very quickly and an assessment, we can gather your systems, we can get a sense for our, where's your data? Where it's flowing from. What are you doing? What are you doing to protect it? We typically will come back and there's going to be spots where there's blind spots. Sometimes they're fully naked, right? But the good news is is now we know the problem, so let's not waste any time, but you can get onboard and baby steps or you know, we can bandaid it or we can really go into full surgery however you want to move forward. >>But the idea is recognizing this has to be addressed because it's a beast. Every single device that's out there on the floor, in any enterprise, any company is a way in and a POC are critical for your business model. You want to get them certainly candy taste, show the value quickly has a POC, gets structured unit assessment. You come in on a narrow entry nail something quick, get a win. What's the, what's the playbook? Love PLCs because we're so fast and easy meaning oftentimes you do PLCs cause you're complex software and you're trying to prove your point and so forth. I love to push a POC cause I can do it inside of days, but I get the customer to take the drive. It's just on the car lot. If I get you to drive it down the block, you're not bringing it back. You're bringing it home to the neighbors. >>Right. That is the case with our software and our hit rate is key. But again it's because it's straightforward and it's easy. So though most sales cycles don't push for pilot. I can't wait to get a pilot but we don't need 30 days to do it in a couple of days. They're going to recognize I can do this too. You have a good track record of POC. If I get, this is going to be the most conceding. You might have to edit this out. If I get an audience, I will win. That is the most conceited statement on the planet. And if I get the audience and they will look, and this is why we use the sports teams. Sports teams are the cool kids using this. And if I get an executive to say, what are you guys doing with the red Sox? If I could get him or her to look, it's game over. >>Hey being bad ass and having some swagger. It's actually a good thing if you got the goods to back it up. That's not fun. Piece here is that the product works well and it's not this massive mountain to hurdle. It is. We can get started today and take bites as we go, but you mentioned sports. Let's get into that talk track. As we have been covering sports data for now six years on the cube in San Francisco. We were briefly talking about it last night at the reception, but I think sports teams encapsulates probably the most acute use case of digital transformation because they have multiple theaters that are exploding. They got to run their business, they got a team to manage and they got fan experience and their consumers, so you've got consumerization of it. You got security of your customers either in a physical venue from a potential terrorist disaster could happen to just using analytics to competitive venture from the Moneyball model to whatever sports really encapsulates what I call the poster child of using digital into a business model that works. >>You've been successful with sports. We interviewed Brian shield yesterday. Yup. Red Sox, vice-president technology. He was very candid. He's like, look it, we use analytics. It helps us get a competitive, not going to tell you the secrets, but we have other issues that people not thinking about drone strikes while the games going on, potential terrorist attacks, gathering the people, you know, adding on East sports stadium to Fenway park. They have a digital business model integrating in real time with a very successful consumer product and business in sports. This has been a good market for you guys. What's been the secret to success? >> Explosive market? Couple things. First off, you summarized well, sports teams are looking for competitive advantage, so anything that can come in under that guys is gonna get some attention plus data, fan data, system data, ticket data. Um, in baseball, they're studying every single pitch of pictures ever thrown. >>They have video on everything. This is heavy lift data, right? So a place to put it saved money, a place to protect it, a pace to access it so that all of my Scouts that are out in the field with a mobile device have the ability to upload or evaluate a player while they're out still on them and on the field somewhere maybe in another country. And then add the added caveat in our sexiest piece. And that's artificial intelligence. You mentioned Moneyball, right? Uh, the, the entire concept of, of stat of statistics came out in the Moneyball concept and you know, we all saw the movie and we all read the book, but at the end of the day, this is the next step to that, which is not just written down statistics. Now we can analyze data with machine learning and we have very, we have unique baseball examples where there's absolutely no doubt they have the data. >>It's the ability to, how do I turn that to where I can be more competitive on our racing team. So we're actually working with teams improving, changing the car on the track during the race, using our software fact. We always look forward to opportunities where somebody says, Hey, come in and talk about that because it's incredibly sexy to see. Um, but sports are fun because first off they're the cool kids. Secondly, they're early adopters. If it's gonna give competitive advantage, uh, and third, they hit all the vectors. Tons of data have to protect it. >> It's our life in the business models digital too. So the digital transformation is in prime time. We cannot ignore the fact that people want wifi. They got Instagram, Facebook, all of these, they're all conscious of social media. There are all kinds of listening sports club, they have to be, they have to be hip, right? >>And being out front like that, think about the data they have come in at. And so not just to be smart on the field, they have to be smart with our customer. They're competing with that customer for four of their major sports or whatever. Major sports in the, in the, in the, in our case in this fashionable to be hip is cool for the product, but now you think about how they run their business. They've got suppliers, um, that have data and trusting suppliers with data's. There's a difficult protection formula. They've got national secure security issues. They have to protect, well they have to protect as a big part, but they have to protect, well first off these, these archives of data that are of 20 races ago or of this pitcher pitched three years ago and I have a thousand of his pitches and I'm looking for towels. >>That is, that's mission critical. But also, uh, to boot you have just business functions where I'm a, I'm a team and I have a huge telco sponsor and we are shifting back and forth and designing what their actual collateral is going to be in the stadium. They're actually using a Chronis to be able to do that up in the cloud where they can both collaborate on that. Not only doing it, but being able to protect it that way. It's, it's more efficient for them. It's interesting. I asked Brian shield this question, I asked her how does baseball flex and digital with the business model of digital with the success of the physical product or their actual product baseball. And he said an interesting thing. He's like the ROI models just get whacked out because what's the ROI of an investment in technology? It used to be total cost of ownership. >>The class that's right under the under the iceberg to sharpen whatever you use, you use that. We don't use that. We think about other consequences like a terrorist attack. That's right. So so the business model, ROI calculation shifting, do you have those kinds of conversations with some of these big teams and these sports teams? Because you know they win the world series, their brand franchise goes up if they win the national championship, but whatever their goal is has real franchise value. There's numbers on that. There's also the risk of say an attack or some sort of breach. >> Well, I won't mention the names, I won't mention the teams by name, but I have a half a dozen teams right now and two that are actually rolling out that are doing facial recognition just for security, a fan's entering their stadium. So they are taking the ownership of the safety of their fan to the level of doing visual or facial recognition coming into their stadium. >>Obviously the archive to measure against is important and we can archive that, but they're also using artificial intelligence for that. So you're absolutely right. They owe their fan a safe experience, not only a safe experience with good experience and so forth. And we love to be associated whenever we can with wins and losses. But to your point, how do you get, or how do you show a TCO on a disaster and nobody wants to, and by the way, we've seen enough of that to know it's looming. And there's also the supply chain too. I can buy a hotdog and a beer from Aramark, which is the red socks. They say supplier that's not owned by the red Sox. They have a relationship. But my data's in, I'm a consumer of the red Sox. I'm procuring a, you know, some food or service from a vendor. Yeah, yeah. My data's out there. >>So who protects that? Well, these are unique questions that come up all the time. Again, that's a business decision for the customer. The idea is with cloud collaboration, it's technically quite easy, but again, they have to decide where they're gonna commingle their data, how they're going to share. But the idea here is, again, back to the spectrum, fully cloud and accessible and locked down airtight government's scenario where we have a, you know, a lock bottom line is you get to pick where you want to be on there and there's going to be times where my example of talking to the, uh, the telco vendor, we're, we're actually going to share our data together and we're going to make us faster, make a quicker return and design this collateral for our stadium faster. Those are business decisions, but they're allowed because it, Coronas can be as hybrid as you need to be along the site. >>And again, that resonates with an executive. They never want to be wearing handcuffs and they don't want to pay overpay for stuff to not use our stuff. And if you decide to consume cloud, you, you just pay as you go. It's like your electricity bill. All right. So the red Sox are a customer of you guys. You have or they use your service. What other sports teams have you guys engaged with who you're talking to? Give a taste of some of the samples. So European, we have a couple of formula one teams. We have a racing point. We have the Williams team and formula E we have to cheetah the dragon team. We have a adventury, we also have Neo. So we have a good presence in the racing clubs. We have a ton of a world rally cars and, and, and motorcycle motorcross and so forth. >>Then you step over into European football. So we, we, we started in cars and recognize this is hot. So then we got our first, uh, European team, uh, and we had arsenal. As a matter of fact, we have one of the legends here signing with us today. And you know, I mean, they're rock stars, right? People follow them. Anyway, so we have arsenal and we did man city. Um, and we just landed, uh, Liverpool just did that this quarter, two weeks ago. I literally just, the ink is still drying. Um, and then you move into the United States, which I brought the, you know, I brought the circus to town on January one, 2019. First when was the Boston red Sox. We quickly followed that up. You'll see us on the home run fence at San Diego Padres. Volts bought for different reasons, but both very sexy reasons. So it's the reason. >>What were the main drivers? So in the case of the Boston red Sox, it was, it was a heavy lift on video. A lot of on the protection side. Um, the, uh, San Diego was file sync and share. So the example I was giving of, um, being able to share with your largest telco vendor or with your largest investors slash sponsor for your stadium, um, that was the driver. Now what's funny about both is as they get started, he's always expanding, right? So we have the baseball teams, we did land this quarter, the Dallas stars. So that's our first hockey club. I really want. And my goal is to try to get a couple in each of the main four categories and then some of the subs, um, just cause you get the cool kids, you get a tipping point. Everybody then wants to know what's going on. I have a hundred and play. >>And so we, we typically try to qualify regional where it makes sense. Um, uh, we're, you know, we're very close with a team here in the region. So, you know, they, in the feedback from, from the, from the successes you had implementations, why, what's uh, what's been the feedback from the customers. So here's the file in this. Sounds like I'm just tripping with sales guy and I apologize. Warning signs. Okay. If they use it, we're home free. So when you get Brian or any one of these guys that are using it, all I have to do is make sure that a new customer hears this person who has no reason to say anything else and just expose them to it. Because it's this unknown, scary thing that we're trying to protect against and being able to do that and have the freedom of how aggressive or you know, what metaphor am I going to cover that? >>And then also, uh, you know, the, obviously the economics work is you pay as you go. Um, it's, you know, it's a good story. Well, Dan, congratulations on the success. Um, great to see you guys really digging in and getting those PLCs and being successful. We watching your growth. Final question for you yes. Is all the data and the patterns that you see and all of customers. What's the number one reason why a Cronus is selected and why you women? I think that's an interesting question and I think that it's a couple of reasons. Number one, we work, we're easy. We have an enormous footprint. So there's a lot to reference from. Many people have already used us on the consumer side, so we're safe. So that's one reason I would also tell you however, that we have a great ecosystem because a Kronos is different than most software companies. >>Most software companies have a huge outside sales force that sells direct to customer a Chronis. Everybody here is a partner. We sell through a service provider to a channel member through a, through a, a, a, an ISV. Um, and then we have some direct enterprise. But the idea is there's a variety of solutions that can be baked on this foundation. And I think people like that variety. I, they, they like the, like the freedom of I'm not just trapped with this one thing. I can buy it and all options are available and I will tell you an it, nobody wants to be locked down. Everybody wants options, safety in numbers. They want their data protected with the whole cyber land lens. And they know everything's changing every six months. Something's different. And I don't want to be handcuffed in my desk. I want all options available. I think that's our best value from all right, Dan, thanks for coming on. Dan havens, chief growth officer, but Krohn is weird. The Chronis global cyber summit. I'm John Ford. Stay tuned for more cube coverage after this short break.