>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE live here in Seattle for day three of three of wall-to-wall coverage. We've been analyzing here on theCUBE for three days, talking to all the experts, the CEOs, CTOs, developers, startups. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, with theCUBE coverage of here at dock, not DockerCon, KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Getting down to the last Con. >> So close, John, so close. >> Lot of Docker containers around here. We'll check it on the Kubernetes. Our next two guests got a startup, hot startup here. You got Norman Hsieh, head of business development, LogDNA. New compelling solution on Kubernetes give them a unique advantage, and of course, Daniel Berg who's distinguished engineer at IBM. They have a deal. We're going to talk about the startup and the deal with IBM. The highlights, kind of a new model, a new world's developing. Thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, no problem, thanks for having us. >> May get you on at DockerCon sometimes. (Daniel laughing) Get you DockerCon. The container certainly been great, talk about your product first. Let's get your company out there. What do you guys do? You got something new and different. Something needed. What's different about it? >> Yeah, so we started building this product. One thing we were trying to do is finding a login solution that was built for developers, especially around DevOps. We were running our own multi-tenant SaaS product at the time and we just couldn't find anything great. We tried open source Elastic and it turned out to be a lot to manage, there was a lot of configuration we had to do. We tried a bunch of the other products out there which were mostly built for log analysis, so you'd analyze logs, maybe a week or two after, and there was nothing just realtime that we wanted, and so we decided to build our own. We overcame a lot of challenges where we just felt that we could build something that was easier to use than what was out there today. Our philosophy is for developers in the terms of we want to make it as simple as possible. We don't want you to manage where you're going to think about how logs work today. And so, the whole idea, even you can go down to some of the integrations that we have, our Kubernetes integration's two lines. You essentially hit two QCTL lines, your entire cluster will get logged, directly logged in in seconds. That's something we show often times at demos as well. >> Norman, I wonder if you can drill in a little bit more for us. Always look at is a lot of times the new generation, they've got just new tools to play with and new things to do. What was different, what changes? Just the composability and what a small form factor. I would think that you could just change the order of magnitude in some of the pricing of some of these. Tell us why it's different. >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's, three major things was speed. So what we found was that there weren't a lot of solutions that were optimized really, really well for finding logs. There were a lot of log solutions out there, but we wanted to optimize that so we fine-tuned Elasticsearch. We do a lot of stuff around there to make that experience really pleasurable for our users. The other is scale. So we're noticing now is if you kind of expand on the world of back in the day we had single machines that people got logs off of, then you went to VMware where you're taking a single machine and splitting up to multiple different things, and now you have containers, and all of a sudden you have Kubernetes, you're talking about thousands and thousands of nodes running and large production service. How do you find logs in those things? And so we really wanted to build for that scale and that usability where, for Kubernetes, we'll automatically tag all your logs coming through. So you might get a single log line, but we'll tag it with all the meta-data you need to find exactly what you want. So if I want to, if my container dies and I no longer know that containers around, how am I going to get the logs off of that, well, you can go to LogDNA, find the container that you're looking for, know exactly where that error's coming from as well. >> So you're basically storing all this data, making it really easy for the integration piece. Where does the IBM relationship fit in? What's the partnership? What are you guys doing together? >> I don't know if Dan wants to-- >> Go ahead, go ahead. >> Yeah, so we're partnering with IBM. We are one of their major partners for login. So if you go into Observability tab under IMB Cloud and click on Login, login is there, you can start the login instance. What we've done is, IBM's brought us a great opportunity where we could take our product and help benefit their own customers and also IBM themselves with a lot of the login that we do. They saw that we are very simplistic way of thinking about logs and it was really geared towards when you think about IBM Cloud and the shift that they're moving towards, which is really developer-focused, it was a really, really good match for us. It brought us the visibility into the upmarket with larger customers and also gives us the ability to kind of deploy globally across IBM Cloud as well. >> I mean, IBMs got a great channel on the sales side too, and you guys got a great relationship. We've seen that playbook before where I think we've interviewed in all the other events with IBM. Startups can really, if they fit in with IBM, it's just massive, but what's the reason? Why the partnership? Explain. >> Well, I mean, first of all we were looking for a solution, a login solution, that fit really well with IKS, our Kubernetes service. And it's cloud-native, high scale, large number of cluster, that's what our customers are building. That's what we want to use internally as well. I mean, we were looking for a very robust cloud-native login service that we could use ourselves, and that's when we ran across these guys. What, about a year ago? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we kind of first got introduced at last year's KubeCon and then it went to Container World, and we just kept seeing each other. >> And we just kept on rolling with it so what we've done with that integration, what's nice about the integration, is it's directly in the catalog. So it's another service in the catalog, you go and select it, and provision it very easily. But what's really cool about it is we wanted to have that integration directly with the Kubernetes services as well, so there's the tab on the Integration tab on the Kubernetes, literally one button, two lines of code that you just have to execute, bam! All your logs are now streaming for the entire cluster with all the index and everything. It just makes it a really nice, rich experience to capture your logs. >> This is infrastructure as code, that's what the promise was. >> Absolutely, yes. >> You have very seamless integration and the backend just works. Now talk about the Kubernetes pieces. I think this is fascinating 'cause we've been pontificating and evaluating all the commentary here in theCUBE, and we've come to the conclusion that cloud's great, but there's other new platform-like things emerging. You got Edge and all these things, so there's a whole new set, new things are going to come up, and it's not going to be just called cloud, it's going to be something else. There's Edge, you got cameras, you got data, you got all kinds of stuff going on. Kubernetes seems to fit a lot of these emerging use cases. Where does the Kubernetes fit in? You say you built on Kubernetes, just why is that so important? Explain that one piece. >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's, Kubernetes obviously brought a lot of opportunities for us. The big differentiator for us was because we were built on Kubernetes from the get go, we made that decision a long time ago, we didn't realize we could actually deploy this package anywhere. It didn't have to be, we didn't have to just run as a multi-tenant SaaS product anymore and I think part of that is for IBM, their customers are actually running, when they're talking about an integrated login service, we're actually running on IBM Cloud, so their customers can be sure that the data doesn't actually move anywhere else. It's going to stay in IBM Cloud and-- >> This is really important and because they're on the Kubernetes service, it gives them the opportunity, running on Kubernetes, running automatic service, they're going to be able to put LogDNA in each of the major regions. So customer will be able to keep their logged data in the regions that they want it to stay. >> Great for compliance. >> Absolutely. >> I mean, compliance, dreams-- >> Got to have it. >> Especially with EU. >> How about search and discovery, that's fit in too? Just simple, what's your strategy on that? >> Yeah, so our strategy is if you look at a lot of the login solutions out there today, a lot of times they require you to learn complex query languages and things like that. And so the biggest thing we were hearing was like, man, onboarding is really hard because some of our developers don't look at logs on a daily basis. They look at it every two weeks. >> Jerry Chen from Greylock Ventures said machine learning is the new, ML is the new SQL. >> Yup. (Daniel laughing) >> To your point, this complex querying is going to be automated away. >> Yup. >> Yes. >> And you guys agree with that. >> Oh, yeah. >> You actually, >> Totally agree with that. >> you talked about it on our interview. >> Norman, wonder if you can bring us in a little bit of compliance and what discussions you're having with customers. Obviously GDPR, big discussion point we had. We've got new laws coming from California soon. So how important is this to your customers, and what's the reality kind of out there in your user base? >> Yeah, compliance was, our founders had run a lot of different businesses before. They had two major startups where they worked with eBay, compliance was the big thing, so we made a decision early on to say, hey, look, we're about 50 people right now, let's just do compliance now. I've been at startups where we go, let's just keep growing and growing and we'll worry about compliance later-- >> Yeah, bite you in the ass, big time. >> Yeah, we made a decision to say, hey, look, we're smaller, let's just implement all the processes and necessary needs, so. >> Well, the need's there too, that's two things, right? I mean, get it out early. Like security, build it up front and you got it in. >> Exactly. >> And remember earlier we were talking and I was telling you how within the Kubernetes service we like to use our own services to build expertise? It's the same thing here. Not only are they running on top of IKS, we're using LogDNA to manage the logs and everything, and cross the infrastructure for IKS as well. So we're heavily using it. >> This also highlights, Daniel, the ecosystem dynamic of having when you break down this monolithic type of environments and their sets of services, you benefit because you can tap into a startup, they can tap in to IBM's goodness. It's like somewhat simple Biz Dev deal other than the RevShare component of the sales, but technically, this is what customers want at the endgame is they want the right tool, the right job, the right product. If it comes from a startup, you guys don't have to build it. >> I mean, exactly. Let the experts do it, we'll integrate it. It's a great relationship. And the teams work really well together which is fantastic. >> What do you guys do with other startups? If a startup watches and says, hey, I want to be like LogDNA. I want to plug into IBM's Cloud. I want to be just like them and make all that cash. What do they got to do? What's the model? >> I mean, we're constantly looking at startups and new business opportunities obviously. We do this all the time. But it's got to be the right fit, alright? And that's important. It's got to be the right fit with the technology, it's got to be the right fit as far as culture, and team dynamics of not only my team but the startup's teams and how we're going to work together, and this is why it worked really great with LogDNA. I mean, everything, it just all fit, it all made sense, and it had a good business model behind that as well. So, yes, there's opportunities for others but we have to go through and explore all those. >> So, Norman, wonder if you can share, how's your experience been at the show here? We'd love to hear, you're going to have so many startups here. You got record-setting attendance for the show. What were your expectations coming in? What are the KPIs you're measuring with and how has it met what you thought you were going to get? >> No, it's great, I mean, previous to the last year's KubeCon we had not really done any events. We're a small company, we didn't want to spend the resources, but we came in last year and I think what was refreshing was people would talk to us and we're like, oh, yeah, we're not an open source technology, we're actually a log vendor and we can, and we'll-- (Stu laughing) So what we said was, hey, we'll brush that into an experience, and people were like, oh, wow, this is actually pretty refreshing. I'm not configuring my fluentd system, fluentd to tap into another Elasticsearch. There was just not a lot of that. I think this year expectation was we need the size doubled. We still wanted to get the message out there. We knew we were hot off the presses with the IMB public launch of our service on IBM Cloud. And I think we we're expecting a lot. I mean, we more than doubled what our lead count was and it's been an amazing conference. I mean, I think the energy that you get and the quality of folks that come by, it's like, yeah, everybody's running Kubernetes, they know what they're talking about, and it makes that conversation that much easier for us as well. >> Now you're CUBE alumni now too. It's the booth, look at that. (everyone laughing) Well, guys, thanks for coming on, sharing the insight. Good to see you again. Great commentary, again, having distinguished engineering, and these kinds of conversations really helps the community figure out kind of what's out there, so I appreciate that. And if everything's going to be on Kubernetes, then we should put theCUBE on Kubernetes. With these videos, we'll be on it, we'll be out there. >> Hey, yeah, absolutely, that'd be great. >> TheCUBE covers day three. Breaking it down here. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. That's a wrap for us here in Seattle. Thanks for watching and look for us next year, 2019. That's a wrap for 2018, Stu, good job. Thanks for coming on, guys, really appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for watching, see you around. (futuristic instrumental music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage here. Day three of wall to wall coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018, here in Seattle, theCUBE's been breaking it down all week. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Tuan Nguyen who is the principal engineer in technical marketing, cloud products and solutions at Cisco Systems. Tuan, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. Thank you. >> So obviously, cloud has been a big part of Cisco. We've seen at Cisco Live last year and Cisco Barcelona. >> Yeah. >> Got your big European event coming up, Cisco Live in Europe. >> Yes. >> Cloud has been a big part of the CEO's conversations on stage. >> Yes. >> Cisco's going all in on cloud, DevNet. >> Yeah. >> DevNet Create, two communities. You guys got a cloud native vibe going on in Cisco. >> Yeah, we do. >> Cloud centered. You got some products that are addressing this. >> Right. >> This is a, shift for Cisco, big time. >> Yeah. >> You've in the cloud, but this is like all. It feels like an all in. >> Right, right. Yeah, yeah, so what we've been evangelizing to people here is that Cisco is a software company, right? We certainly have a very strong heritage in our enterprise relationships related to our hardware platforms but we're transitioning and we're really making that conversion to being a software company. Cisco has been acquiring talent and technology in the past couple years. We've developed some strong relationships with Google and AWS as well and we developed these reference architectures that our customers can buy as kind of a single unit and get the support that they need from us. >> Yeah. >> So. >> We covered your recent announcement with AWS. >> Yes. >> Really nice, elegantly designed Kubernetes strategy where using EKS over here, you got the Cisco stuff on here so it's seamless experience for the customer which is great, congrats, I think that's a great announcement. I think it's directionally correct. I think that's what customers want. But I want to ask you a bigger question I want to get your opinion on, perspective. When you look at Kubernetes, what we're hearing here at the show from end users and from the emerging start ups that are contributing is that, breaking down the monolithic application into a series of granule sets of services is what everyone is doing. That's clearly, that microservices, a variety of other things, Kubernetes can connect that. But it's the network that brings it together. >> Right. >> So we're seeing the policy knobs inside Kubernetes as being a very strategic benefit. We had one expert say, "A lot of people "aren't taking advantage of those policy knobs. "This is a great opportunity." >> Right. >> You guys are, (laughing) as networked as you could be at Cisco. This is your DNA. >> Yeah. >> How are you guys looking at Kubernetes? Are you looking at the policy knobs? How do you talk to your customers about this new opportunity with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. >> What's the real up side-- >> Yeah. >> For your customers with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. So one, you mentioned, we see Kubernetes as very pervasive so we offer an on prem version of Kubernetes and of course, you know, we partner with Google and with AWS to deliver on cloud versions of Kubernetes and related to policies, application policies, in the form of Istio and network policies or security policies in the form of a network interface. Our on prem solution offers three types of CNIs. So we're very flexible in that way and certainly if you are a Cisco customer and you have a Cisco ecosystem of hardware platforms then we natively integrate into those platforms and we let you leverage your existing investments, yeah. >> So if I look at it that way, then I'm saying, okay, I'm good with Cisco right now. >> Yeah. >> Do I have to change anything with Kubernetes? What's the impact to me, as a Cisco customer? >> Yeah. >> Is this added value? Consistent environment? What's the impact to the customer's day to day, operational? (laughing) >> Sure, sure. Yeah. >> Environment? >> Yeah, so our customers are asking us to tie both VM based and container based workloads into CICD, so we obviously, with with our ACI/CNI we give them the capability to construct policies in Kubernetes that end up on the hardware platform, right? That's number one. Then we also have a hardware registry, we have security policies, that can be carried across different platforms, so in your private cloud and VMware and OpenStack, you can carry those same policies. For us, we've got application delivery, frameworks and platforms, that deliver the application in the form of both VM and container based as well as bare metal and we kind of unify the user experience, when it comes to application deployment in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so Tuan, I'm actually glad that we got you towards the end of what we've been talking about here because one of the things we've been teasing apart is, multi clouds, in many ways, is like what we've been talking about a long time about multi vendor. >> Yeah. >> And the networking space is an area that we really understand. You know, what worked and what didn't work in a multi vendor world and the management piece was often the breaking point because just stitching all those together, we've looked for the last few years, customers have multi cloud and getting their arms around that and how do I manage that, can be a real challenge. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We know Cisco's making investments, they've made acquisitions. Tell us, what have we learned from the past? What's different about this now that will make it successful where management has been one of the pitfalls for quite a long time? >> Yeah, yeah. So I think what we've learned from the past is that customers are asking us for policies that can span across the multi cloud, right? So, whereas certain platforms will give you a hybrid cloud experience, Cisco is investing in things like VPN meshed apologies into CSR, in ASR, in protecting workloads as they move across different cloud targets. And then also in the provisioning and life cycle management. We feel that customers want the capability to run applications in any cloud environment and under any type of overlay or underlay networking platforms, yeah. >> Tuan, one of the things that you talk about not only getting your arms around it but there is multi axis's that I need to optimize for. One of the ones, of course, sorting out is cost. So, you know, where does Cisco sit in this environment? The big shift that I think was really highlighted for me last year, going to Cisco Live is, it used to be most of what I'm managing, I control. >> Right. >> Today, most of the network and most of the environments that I'm in charge of? They're outside of my purview. >> Right. >> With doing that multi cloud world. >> Right. >> So how I make sure that I don't, you know, get myself in trouble with the CFO? >> Right. >> Or have unexpected things come up? >> Right, right, yeah. I came through a software acquisition called CliQr Technologies and CliQr Technologies is that one tool that gives you that experience and allows you to see cloud cost. So cloud cost from a hourly, metered perspective but also from a budgeting perspective. And we're adding additional components into our platform that gives you like true cost for all of your compute, all of your network, your storage, your services like Lambda and then also makes recommendations on the instant sizes that you need to use. We have policies like suspension policies that help our customers to save on their cloud bill. In a lot of ways, the life cycle management aspect of applications is something that differentiates us from other cloud management platforms. >> Talk about the cost side and the cost of ownership. I've always been talking about the cloud as the TCO or total cost of ownership, changes a bit. What are some of the challenges that you've seen the customers having that you guys are helping with? When you look at integrating security, networking and application performance and management? Cause it's not siloed anymore. >> Yeah. >> They're integrating together. >> That's right. >> This is a new dynamic. >> Right, right. >> What's state of the art? What are you guys doing? You guys address that? What are some of the customer challenges? Just, what's your thoughts on that area? >> Yeah so most of the time there are two basic challenges to this. One is, you know bringing the cloud economy into the private cloud consumption is something that our platform does. And then also being able to visualize all the costs. Helping our customers to make good decisions about what types of workloads run where best and whether it's, so we enable, obviously, VMs as well as cloud native, container based, micro services to co-exist in a single platform so we'll deploy VMs and containers in a hybrid fashion. >> Yeah. >> Or we'll deploy them into the same and we'll give you the utilization of those workloads based on dollar amounts, based on run time and also based on the type of workload. >> So here's the curve ball question for you. Now multi cloud comes into the equation? >> Yeah. >> How do you guys deal with that because workload, in some cases, I've heard from customers that refactoring those workloads is a problem. >> Right. >> So if I'm going to run true multi cloud, I'm going to have multiple clouds, I need networks to know, have smarts, around where I want to put that and do I want it in different geography maybe or region? So the network has the intelligence on a lot of things. >> Right. >> How are you guys addressing the multi cloud component? >> Yeah, yeah. >> With workload? Without refactoring? >> Yeah. So because we can compose applications that consist of both VMs and containers, right? One of the projects, just one of the use cases that we worked on with our relationship with Google was to, from cloud center, to deploy cloud native workloads in GKE that would navigate and basically traverse the VPN network to go back into the on prem target in order to access a database that was kind of a legacy database using an API URL. So that whole workflow was something that we solved for with our reference architecture so, you know, we obviously have the portfolio of products that allows our customers to take advantage of both hardware, software and networking and security and monitoring all in one reference architecture. >> A lot of opportunities for you guys. I think you're positioned well. We've covered you guys on the DevNet, DevNet Create. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing the cloud center, this dashboard kind of model of looking at the operations side, the development side. A lot of changes. Really kind of fit right into your wheelhouse. >> Yes, yeah. >> I think the Kubernetes policy knobs, it's a big story that I'm walking away with on this trip and saying, wow, policy sounds like a networking thing. Networking guys love policy. >> Yeah. >> If you can automate it? >> Yeah, that's right. >> And managed the costs? >> Yeah. >> It's a good thing. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate your insight. >> Thank you, thank you very much. >> CUBE coverage here, day three continues. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Stay with us for wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with more, after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud-Native computing foundation and its ecoystem partners. >> Everyone welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the content and the analysis, opinion, getting all the data, sharing that with you, three days of wall-to-wall coverage, we're in day three winding down, great event. Our next guest is one of the stars of the show here, original Kubernetes, a pioneer, Joe Beda, also the Kube founder at Heptio, recently sold to VMware in acquisition. Startup only what, two years old? >> Yeah, about two years. >> About two years. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Google. Great work you've done with Craig and with pioneering Kubernetes, Heptio startup. >> Yep, yep. >> Got taken off the table as you were ramping up. Congratulations! >> Thank you so much! It's been a little bit of a wild ride, I can tell you that. >> So first question for you is, I don't want to get into the whole VMware thing, we're going to hit that up in VMworld next year. But as you look at the ecosystem of Kubernetes, I mean, you've got to be looking at this sayin, "Hey, we knew this was going to be big." You guys have been running it with Borg and where that came from in the DNA. The magic wand almost was kind of passed out. Hey, this happened! It's kind of happening in a big way. What's your reaction? How do you feel at an emotional level? What's the vibe going on in your mind right now? >> I mean, I look at this and it blows my mind. I think we knew that we had a possibility with Kubernetes to do something big, we could feel it. I don't think we ever expected this, to be honest. The thing, though, that I think surprises me, and it was both about building startup and building a company, but also seeing the community grow, is that every time you hire a new person to do a startup, every time you have somebody join the community and start contributing, it's like it's another cylinder in the engine. And it really starts taking it in directions that you had no idea it was going to to go into. And so, I look around here and this is a product of a community. This is not a product of any single company, any single set of folks. I mean, you start things snowballing and interesting things happen, but it really is a group effort. >> It's so hard to do a startup. You know, I've done a lot of startups. We've done a lot of interviews with startups. It's hard. You got to start a company, you got to do all that legal work, then you've got to get the momentum, and it's capped off by the validation, certainly by VMware, who announced heavily at the VMworld, Pat Gelsinger said that Kubernetes is the dial tone. (laughs) And I'm like, okay, I guess. We were talking earlier, it's the ethernet. I've called it the TCP/IP. So, all the analogies come to this enabling kind of capability. And that's where we see a lot of the value. Where do you see the opportunities for the ecosystem to innovate. I mean, getting some clear visibility around the stability. But now value is starting to get created. What's your thoughts on value creation? Where are some areas that are ripe? >> Yeah, well, I think a couple of things. I think we're at the point now where it's about how do we bring these technologies to new people, to new audiences, to folks who might not have heard about it, don't quite get it. How do we make this stuff more relevant to them? So we're moving out of this technology-focus phase, into this phase that's focused on solution and value that's delivered. And this isn't always about innovation and building on top. Some of it is about different ways to do it, and also just, you know, having these ideas just permeate, right? And as technologists, we build on incredibly complicated technology. We look at, say, something like AWS. If you were to approach that brand new without any idea of the history there, it would be incredibly intimidating. But it's been around long enough, it's grown organically, that everyone's like, "Oh yeah, I totally understand all that stuff." It just takes time sometimes for these technologies to become understood, to become part of the fabric of what people assume the technical skill set is. And I think that's a big part of what we're seeing starting to happen now, too. >> Joe, I want to get your viewpoint. When I think about the last ten, fifteen years, the whole discussion of hybrid cloud, multicloud, portability, even thinking about things from a VMware context, or from a cloud-computing context, it seems like we have a lot of false starts and false expectations about, you know, we've listed Pat Gelsinger and Andy Jassy and others who talk about the three laws of the cloud. We're not changing physics. And Kubernetes is super-important for multicloud, but portability was kind of thrown out there. I want to get you to help us tease out what it is, what it isn't, and how do you see multicloud today? >> Yeah, so I mean, first, on the topic of false starts, there's this popular narrative that, oh, it's going to be this, now this is the hot thing, now it's this. And the reality is that main frames are still around. Technologies don't disappear, it's an additive type of thing. So it's not like, say for example, Kubernetes or Serverless or machine learning, right? It's all of those things working together and I think, if you look at it in that way, it doesn't feel like a false start. It just seems like we're adding more different techniques, more technologies onto the pile. In terms of where I see this stuff going, I think multicloud and compatibility do go hand-in-hand. From the very start, we never wanted to pretend that Kubernetes was going to be this magic layer that was going to make differences between different environments disappear. What we did want to do, though, was actually find the commonalities and minimize the extra differences that didn't need to be there. And so a lot of times, when I talked to customers, I don't say, "Hey, don't use this special service in this cloud." I don't tell them that. What I do say, though, is, "If you are going to start using those things, "do it in an eyes-open type of way. "Understand the trade-offs, "understand why you're doing it" versus just willy-nilly adopting technologies cuz they look nice and shiny, and that's what you want to do, right? So I think, whether you're adopting Kubernetes, whether you're adopting a specific cloud technology, whether you're moving to cloud versus actually building automatable infrastructure on prem, make sure that you're thoughtful about how you enter those types of decisions. >> The way the feedback we hear from people here on theCUBE this week and other places as well, is, pick a problem to solve. Don't boil all of the ocean, get in there, use Kubernetes for what you think you can nail a problem on, iterate from there. That's the common theme. Now as you guys pivot over to VMware, they've been investing a lot in their strategy also with AWS, RDS is now on VMware, they'd look at Kubernetes as a great opportunity to bridge on-premises and cloud. So it's clear to see why they like it. Explain for the folks watching who are fans of you and Craig and Heptio, what's next for you guys? You joined VMware, you just closed the deal, you're principal engineer at VM where you're in the business unit side, share some of the specifics that you can on what's going to happen next. >> Yeah, I think it's too early for me to speak on sort of a grand strategy across VMware. I think I'm still mapping things out and understanding things. What I can talk about is the way that we were thinking about the market from Heptio's point of view. And every indication that I've seen that this is actually very, very compatible for VMware. A lot of the keynotes that you saw here at KubeCon Show, that adoption curve, where we're in the early phase versus the early majority, that type of thing, and I think there's some truth to that. But I also think that there's an axis to that, that actually isn't shown up there, around the different personas that you see adopt different technologies inside of the enterprise organization. And so the strength of somebody like VMware, and I think the early adopters for things like Kubernetes, are that operator persona. And we're seeing an evolution of that persona as it starts to come to grips with the world of the cloud. We're moving from a place where things are ticket-based, human intensive, to how do we move to API-driven, policy-drive types of things, right? And so that's obviously where the cloud is. But how do we take those learnings, how do we take those lessons and actually apply those things on problems? And so our goal from Heptio's point of view, and I think it's incredibly well-aligned with VMware, and an enormous opportunity, is taking the VMware-faithful, the folks who do go to VMworld, that have built careers on that solution, how do we help them move their career forward, move their positioning forward in a way that doesn't eliminate their jobs, but actually helps them be smart in a modern world where cloud is actually part of the landscape. >> We had Aparna on from Google, and you know Aparna from your Google days, and she was making a comment about these new personas, new opportunities, new jobs that are opening up based on Kube. Okay, great, we see some of that. And then we've done rift on the idea that Kubernetes also is a uplift for existing roles: system architect, Network Guy, Server Guy, and then the VMware operator that had been wearing virtual machines, this is a lift for them. Talk about what specifically is going to get them jazzed up, is it the policy knobs on Kubernetes, what's going to really appeal to people below Kubernetes and what's really going to appeal to the developers above Kubernetes? >> Well, for centralized IT within an organization, cloud has been a challenge, right? If, I'm not thinking of a specific customer, but it's not insane to think about something like a developer who wants to write an app, they have to file a ticket, it can take anywhere from two weeks to three months to get stuff provisioned, right? And they're sitting there twiddling their thumbs waiting to actually get that stuff ready. Meanwhile, they take their credit card, go to a cloud, get a machine up and running within 30 seconds, and get their app shipped. So while they're waiting on that ticket, they can get that app shipped, and then they dare their manager to deny the credit card charge when it comes due. That is a challenge for centralized IT which oftentimes has not had any competition. Now, all of a sudden, they find themselves in a situation where they're competing with cloud for the hearts and minds of their own customers, for their developers. And different organizations have reacted to this in different ways. Some of them had said, we're just going to explode out IT and actually say to different business units, "You own your own destiny." But, depending on the enterprise, depending on the goals, depending on their requirements around regulatory needs, around policy, around cost controls, around mobility of developer skills across the organization, that may or may not work for them. And so, for me, the bridge forward for that centralized IT, is really one of giving them the power tools so they can actually serve their customers better in a world where cloud exists. >> Yeah. Their jobs! That's their job to serve the business. >> Well, I mean, the bar has been raised, right? And so we want to help them meet that challenge. >> Awesome. >> Joe, I want to get your thoughts on this growing ecosystem. I said in our open this morning, we've been looking for the last five years or so. Where is that independent, cloud-computing show? And sitting here with 8 thousand people, and another 2 thousand people are in the hallways or on the wait list and things like that. It's here, and there's all of these projects into multiple communities come together. How does it feel that Kubernetes, was it kind of the first domino to help tip something broader with CloudNative? >> I mean it feels really good, to be honest. I think one of the things that we saw Heptio as, and I think VMware is actually in a great position also, is to be a neutral party that really is on the side of customers as they enter this complex world where they're dancing with elephants that are the big cloud providers. And I think that there is an enormous appetite for customers to actually have trusted partners in that world. Now, with respect to the conference, I think, what I love doing is I love being on the floor here, I love talking to people, I love going to the session tracks. That's where I think the heart of this conference is. Some of the contributor community days that happened on Monday that don't get a lot of coverage, the big headlines are one thing but there really is an undercurrent of community that's happening in this conference that is really something pretty special. >> I think that's a great point, and, at least what I've seen that's contributed, you know, the Envoy Group, tomorrow there's the Operators Group, this is not a monolithic community, it's not like, look, I've been at VMworld for years. It was about virtualization and primarily a single product from a single company and everything that wrapped around it. This is not a vendor doing it, there's all of these. I talked to the people that all they care about is Helm, we talked about all these different pieces, and many of them tie into what was going on at Kubernetes, but there's just so much diversity, and it's a common ground for everybody to work together. >> And I think, this is one of the things that I think has been interesting about the CNCF is that there is no, there is an idea that we want to create a set of projects that work well together, but there also is the realization that there is no one way to skin the cat, there is no one way to solve a problem. So there is room for projects to disagree, there's room for projects to experiment, there is room for folks to try and find their audience and be successful. >> That's the modern upgrade in my mind, to, not going against the open source ethos but also innovating with it, You're balancing commercial so you just, I think they've got to apply this upstream concept called CNCF where the downstream benefits for commercialization, you can still do the open source community thing while having an impact downstream to IT and just regular developers. This is the trend we see at Enterprise when we talk to the customers, we talk to other people, IT has been outsourced for decades. Now there has to be a competitive advantage, and we have the competition thing that you pointed out. And the smart CIO CX's are bringing developers in to create a competitive advantage, and it's a new reset. And, not throwing away networks, they're not throwing away compute and storage. They're going to change it. And I think this is where the real tailwind is. Do you agree with that or what's your thoughts? >> The way I like to think about it is that, and I'm using company names here as an example, but I think there is this race between Tesla learning how to become a car company versus, say, Ford or GM learning how to become a software company, right? And that dynamic is playing itself out across every single industry. And I think there is not a CEO or CIO or board out there that doesn't realize that the way for us to be relevant in the future is to turn software into, not just a cost-center and something we deal with, but something that becomes a fundamental advantage and driver of our business. >> Every industry: media, software! We're a software company that happens to do media, with theCUBE. You're totally right, it's just like-- >> Any industry. This is why Amazon's getting into grocery stores. >> It's integration. This is a completely new horizontal dynamic with a little bit of special machine learning at the outlay. >> We're moving into a software-defined world, for sure. >> Joe, been great to have your commentary here on theCUBE. Thanks for sharing. Congratulations on the acquisition. Super outcome, the numbers floating out there. It's pretty large, good deal. We have no comment. (laughs) >> Open source! >> Read DCSE C file. >> Open source business models are changing, but the value is still the same. Those who create the value can extract it. That's the ethos of open source, of course theCUBE as well. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break.

>> Live, from the Seattle, Washington. It's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018, brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone. We're live here in Seattle for theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier at Stuart Miniman. Our next guest Stephan Fabel, who is the Director of Product Management at Canonical. CUBE alumni, welcome back. Good to see you. >> Thank you. Good to see you too. Thanks for having me. >> You guys are always in the middle of all the action. It's fun to talk to you guys. You have a pulse on the developers, you have pulse on the ecosystem. You've been deep in it for many, many years. Great value. What's hot here, what's the announcement, what's the hard news? Let's get to the hard news out of the way. What's happening? What's happening here at the show for you guys? >> Yeah, we've had a great number of announcements, a great number of threads of work that came into fruition over the last couple of months, and now just last week where we announced hardware reference architectures with our hardware partners, Dell and SuperMicro. We announced ARM support, ARM64 support for Kubernetes. We released our version 1.13 of our Charmed Distribution of Kubernetes, last week And we also released, very proud to release, MicroK8s. Kubernetes in a single snap for your workstation in the latest release 1.13. >> Maybe explain that, 'cause we often talk about scale, but there is big scale, and then we're talking about edge, we're talking about so many of these things. >> That's right. >> That small scale is super important, so- >> It really is, it really is, so, MicroK8s came out of this idea that we want to enable a developer to just quickly standup a Kubernetes cluster on their workstation. And it really came out of this idea to really enable, for example, AIML work clouds, locally from development on the workstation all the way to on-prem and into the public cloud. So that's kind of where this whole thing started. And it ended up being quite obvious to us that if we do this in a snap, then we actually can also tie this into appliances and devices at the edge. Now we're looking at interesting new use cases for Kubernetes at the edge as an actual API end point. So it's a quite nice. >> Stephan talk about ... I want to take a step back. There's kind of dynamics going on in the Kubernetes wave, which by the way is phenomenal, 8000 people here at KubeCon, up from 4000. It's got that hockey stick growth. It's almost like a Moore's Law, if you will, for the events. You guys have been around, so you have a lot of existing big players that have been in the space for a while, doing a lot of work around cloud, multi-cloud, whatever ... That's the new word, but again, you guys have been there. You got like the Cisco's of the world, you guys, big players actively involved, a lot of new entrants coming in. What's your perspective of what's happening here? A lot of people looking at this scratching their head saying: Okay I get Kubernetes, I get the magic. Kubernetes enables a lot of things. What's the impact to me? What's in it for me as an enterprise or a developer? How do you guys see this market place developing? What's really going on here? >> Well I think that the draw to this conference and to technology and all the different vendors et cetera, it's ultimately a multi-cloud experience, right? It is about enabling workload portability and enabling the operator to operate Kubernetes, independently of where that is being deployed. That's actually also the core value proposition of our charmed Kubernetes. The idea that a single operational paradigm allows you to experience, to deploy, lifecycle manage and administer Kubernetes on-prem, as well as any of the public clouds, as well as on other virtual substrates, such as VMware. So ultimately I think the consolidation of application delivery into a single container format, such as Docker and other compatible formats, OCI formats right? That was ultimately a really good thing, 'cause it enabled that portability. Now I think the question is, I know how to deploy my applications in multiple ways, 'cause it's always the same API, right? But how do I actually manage a lot of Kubernetes clusters and a lot of Kubernetes API end points all over the place? >> So break down the hype and reality, because again, a lot of stuff looks good on paper. Love the soundbites of people saying, "Hey, Kubernetes," all this stuff. But people admitting some things that need to be done, work areas. Security is a big concern and people are working on that. Where is the reality? Where does the rubber meet the road when it comes down to, "Okay, I'm an enterprise. What am I buying into with Kubernetes? How do I get there?" We heard Lyft take an approach that's saying, "Look, it solved one problem." Get a beachhead and take the incremental approach. Where's the hype, where's the reality? Separate that for us. >> I think that there is certainly a lot of hype around the technology aspect of Kubernetes. Obviously containerization is invoked. This is how developers choose to engage in application development. We have Microservices architecture. All of those things we're very well aware of and have been around for quite some time and in the conversation. Now looking at container management, container orchestration at scale, it was a natural fit for something like Kubernetes to become quite popular in this space. So from a technology perspective I'm not surprised. I think the rubber meets the road, as always, in two things: In economics and in operations. So if I can roll out more Kubernetes clusters per day, or more containers per day, then my competitor ... I gain a competitive advantage, that the cost per container is ultimately what's going to be the deciding factor here. >> Yeah, Stephan, when I think about developers how do I start with something and then how do I scale it out in the economics of that? I think Canonical has a lot of experience with that to share. What are you seeing ... What's the same, what's different about this ecosystem, CloudNative versus, when we were just talking about Linux or previous ways of infrastructure? >> Well I think that ultimately Kubernetes, in and of itself, is a mechanism to enable developers. It plays one part in the whole software development lifecycle. It accelerates a certain part. Now it's on us, distributors of Kubernetes, to ensure that all the other portions of this whole lifecycle and ecosystem around Kubernetes, where do I deploy it? How do I lifecycle manage it? If there's a security breach like last Monday, what happens to my existing stack and how does that go down? That acceleration is not solved by Kubernetes, it's solved for Kubernetes. >> Your software lives in lots and lots of environments. Maybe you can help clarify for people trying to understand how Kubernetes fits, and when you're playing with the public cloud, your Kubernetes versus their Kubernetes. The distinction I think is, there's a lot of nuance there that people may need help with. >> That's true, yeah. So I think that, first of all, we always distance ourself from the notion of having our Kubernetes. I think we have a distribution of Kubernetes. I think there is conformance, tests that are in place that they're in place for a reason. I think it is the right approach, and we won't install a fourth version of Kubernetes anytime soon. Certainly, that is one of the principles we adhere to. What is different about our distribution of Kubernetes is the operational tooling and the ability to really cookie-cutter out Kubernetes clusters that feel identical, even though they're distributed and spread across multiple different substrates. So I think that is really the fundamental difference of our Kubernetes distribution versus others that are out there on the market. >> The role of developers now, 'cause obviously you're seeing a lot of different personas emerging in this world. I'm just going to lay them out there and I want to get your reaction. The classic application developer, the ones who are sitting there writing code inside a company. It could be a consumer company like Lyft or an enterprise company that needs ... They're rebuilding inside, so it's clear that CIOs or enterprises, CXOs or whatever the title is, they're bringing more software in-house, bringing that competitive advantage under application development. You have the IT pro expert, practitioner kind of role, classic IT, and then you got the opensource community vibe, this show. So you got these three things inter-playing with each other, this show, to me feels a lot like an opensource show, which it is, but it also feels a lot like an IT show. >> Which it also is. >> It also is, and it feels like an app development show, which it also is. So, opportunity, challenge, is this a marketplace condition? What's you thoughts on these kind of personas? >> Well I think it's really a question of how far are you willing to go in your implementation of devops cultural change, right? If you look at that notion of devops and that movement that has really taken ahold in people's minds and hearts over the last couple of years, we're still far off in a lot of ways and a lot of places, right? Even the places who are saying they're doing devops, they're still quite early, if at all, on that adoption curve. I think bringing operators, developers and IT professionals together in a single show is a great way for the community and for the market to actually engage in a larger devops conversation, without the constraint of the individual enterprise that those teams find themselves in. If you can just talk about how you should do something better and how would that work, and there is other kinds of personas and roles at the same table, it is much better that you have the conversation without the constraint of like a deadline or a milestone, or some outage somewhere. Something is always going on. Being able to just have that conversation around a technology and really say, "Hey, this is going to be the one, the vehicle that we use to solve this problem and further that conversation," I think it's extremely powerful. >> Yeah, and we always talk about who's winning and who's losing. It's what media companies do. We do it on theCUBE, we debate it. At the end of the day we always like ... There's no magic quadrant for this kind of market, but the scoreboard can be customers. Amazon's got over 5000 reputable customers. I don't know how many CNCF has. It's probably a handful, not 5000. The customer implications are really where this is going. Multi-cloud equals choice. What's your conversations like with customers? What do you see on the customer landscape in terms of appetite, IQ, or progress for devops? We were talking, not everyone's on server lists yet and that's so obvious that's going to be a big thing. Enterprises are hot right now and they want the tech. Seeing the cloud growth, where's your customer-base? What are those conversations like? Where are they in the adoption of CloudNative? >> It's an extremely interesting question actually, because it really depends on whether they started with PaaS or not. If they ever had a PaaS strategy then they're mostly disillusioned. They came out, they thought it was going to solve a huge problem for them and save them a lot of money, and it turns out that developers want more flexibility than any PaaS approach really was able to offer them. So ultimately they're saying, "You know what, let's go back to basics." I'll just give you a Kubernetes API end point. You already know how to deal with everything else beyond that, and actually you're not cookie-cuttering out post ReSQueL- >> Kubernetes is a reset to PaaS. >> It really does. It kind of disrupted that whole space, and took a step back. >> All right, Stephan, how about Serverless. So a lot of discussion about Knative here. We've been teasing out where that fits compared to functions from AWS and Azure. What's the canonical take on this? What are you hearing from your customers? >> So Serverless is one of those ... Well it's certainly a hot technology and a technology of interest to our customers, but we have longstanding partnerships with Galactic Fog and others in place around Serverless. I haven't seen real production deployments of that yet, and frankly it's probably going to take a little bit longer before that materializes. I do think that there's a lot of efforts right now in containerization. Lots of folks are at that point where they are ready to, and are already running containerized workloads. I think they're busy now implementing Kubernetes. Once they have done that, I think they'll think a little bit more about Serverless. >> One of the things that interest me about this ecosystem is the rise of Kubernetes, the rise of choice, the rise of a lot of tools, a lot of services, trying to fend off the tsunami wave that's hit the beach out of Amazon. I've always said in theCUBE that that's ... They're going to take as much inland territory on this tsunami unless someone puts up a sea wall. I think this is this community here. The question is, is that ... And I want to get your expert opinion on this, because the behemoths, the big guys are getting richer. The innovation's coming from them, they have scale. You mentioned that as a key point in the value of Kubernetes, is scale, as one of those players, I would consider in the big size, not like a behemoth like an Amazon, you got a unique position. How can the industry move forward with disruption and innovation, with the big guys dominating? What has to happen? Is there going to change the size of certain TAMs? Is there going to be new service providers emerging? Something's got to give, either the big guys get richer at the expense of the little guys, or market expands with new categories. How do you guys look at that? Developers are out there, so is it promising look to new categories, but your thoughts. >> I think it's ... So a technology perspective certainly would be, there could be a disruptive technology that comes in and just eats their lunch, which I don't believe is going to happen, but I think it might actually be a more of a market functionality actually. If it goes down to the economics, and as they start to compete there will be a limit to the race to the bottom. So if I go in on an economical advantage point as a public cloud, then I can only take that so far. Now, I can still take it a lot further, but there's going to be a limit to that ultimately. So, I would say that all of the public clouds, we see that increasingly happening, are starting to differentiate. So they're saying, "Come to me for IML." "Come to me for a rich service catalog." "Come to me for workload portability," or something like that, right? And we'll se more differentiation as time goes on. I think that will develop in a little bit of a bubble, to the point where actually other players who are not watching, for example, Chinese clouds, right? Very large, very influential, very rich in services, they can come in and disrupt their market in a totally different way than a technology ever could. >> So key point you mentioned earlier, I want to pivot on that and get to the AI conversation, but scale is a competitive advantage. We've seen that on theCUBE, we see it in the marketplace. Kubernetese by itself is great but at scale it gets better, got nobs and policy. AI is a great example of where a dormant computer science concept that has not yet been unleashed ... Well, it gets unleashed by cloud. Now that's proliferating. AI, what else is out there? How do you see this trend around just large-scale Kubernetes, AI and machine learning coming on around the corner? That's going to be unique, and is new. So you mentioned the Chinese cloud could be a developer here. It's a lever. >> Absolutely, we've been involved with kubeflow since the early days. Early days, it's barely a year, so what early days? It's a year old. >> It's yesterday. >> So a year a ago we started working with kubeflow, and we published one of the first tutorials of how to actually get that up and running and started on Ubuntu, and with our distribution of Kubernetes, and it has since been a focal point of our distribution. We do a couple of things with kubeflow. So the first thing, something that we can bring as a unique value preposition is, because we're the operating system for almost all GKE, all of AKS, all EKS, such a strong standing as an operating system, and have strong partnerships with folks like NVIDIA. It was kind of one of the big milestones that we tried to achieve and we've since completed, actually as another announcement since last week, is the full automatic deployment of GPU enablement on Kubernetes clusters, and have that identical experience happen across the public clouds. So, GPGPU enablement on Kubernetes, as one of the key enablers for projects like kubeflow, which gives you machine learning stacks on demand, right? And then a parallel, we've been working with kubeflow in the community, very active, formed a steering committee to really get the industry perspective into the needs of kubeflow as a community and work with everybody else in that community to make sure that kubeflow releases on time, and hopefully soon, and a 1.0, which is due this summer, but right now they're focused on 0.4. That's a key area of innovation though, opportunity. >> Oh, absolutely. >> I see Amazon's certainly promoting that. What else is new? I've got one last question for you. What's next for you guys? Get a quick plugin for Canonical. What's coming around the corner, what's up? >> We're definitely happy to continue to work on GPGPU enablement. I think that is one of the key aspects that needs to stay ... That we need to stay on top of. We're looking at Kubernates across many different use cases now, especially with our IoT, open to core operating system, which we'll release shortly, and here actually having new use cases for AIML inference. For example, out at the edge looking at drones, robots, self-driving cars, et cetera. We're working with a bunch of different industry partners as well. So increased focus on the devices side of the house can be expected in 2019. >> And that's key these data, in a way that's really relevant. >> Absolutely. >> All right, Stephan, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I appreciate it, Canonical's. Great insight here, bringing in more commentary to the conversation here at KubeCon, CoudNativeCon. Large-scale deployments as a competitive advantage. Kubernetes really does well there: Data, machine learning, AI, all a part of the value and above and below Kubernatese. We're seeing a lot of great advances. CUBE coverage here in Seattle. We'll be back with more after this short break. 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>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE's live coverage, day three of three days of coverage here at KubeCon 2018, and CloudNativeCon put on by the Linux Foundation and CNCF. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Our next guest is Hussein Khazaal, who's the Vice President of Marketing and Partners of Nuage Networks. Thanks for coming on, good to see you! >> Thanks, John, good to see you. >> Love that shirt, automation... >> Yeah. >> That's the theme. >> That is! (chuckles) >> Cloud native, cloud operations, thanks for coming on. So take a minute just to talk about what you guys are doing with the show, what's the key value proposition you guys are part of, what conversations you're having. >> Right so, for Nuage we basically deliver a software-based virtual networking solution. And a lot of our customers appreciate the value it brings because they have multi cloud environments, they have workloads in on-prem. Those are mixed, some VM, some bare metal, some containers, they have workloads in public cloud, and what we enable them with our software is to stitch all that together using an API-driven networking model that has policy applied to the workload, and you have that mixed workload environment with network policy and security built into that platform. And that's kind of where we help not really break what Kubernetes brings to developers, but maintain that, giving the IT and infrastructure folks the ability to have visibility control and maintain that. >> We were just talking with a partner from Google, we always talk to the same companies, so some of the senior people at AWS, and all the clouds. Obviously cloud operations is what everyone wants, that's the preferred environment, whether you're on-premises or in the cloud, Edge is now on the horizon. Storage, networking and compute is still the core, it's just a little bit different. But there's new jobs that are emerging around Kubernetes, you see the job board, but it's also revitalizing older roles, the network guy, the storage guy, the server guy, traditional IT enterprises are seeing those roles transform. So I got to ask you, as you guys are in the middle of all the networking side, how do see that person, that role, that piece of the puzzle in an IT enterprise change with Kubernetes? >> Absolutely, I mean, the one thing that we had some of our customers do is that these roles are no longer defined by a specific, you have to have these mixed skills, you have to understand what the developer needs as an infrastructure person, and the developer needs what kind of tools that they need to implement so you can do your job, and that's why Kubernetes, and when you're talking about networking and security, you have to understand Linux, you have to understand programming, to be able to give the developers the tools that they need to develop and understand the requirements and then by the same token, they need to make sure that from an intercom perspective, you need to understand, you still need the visibility, you still need control, right? And that balance can only be achieved if you kind of do the exchange roles, right? You get to work with the developers, and then the developers need to look at infrastructure and that's kind of where you stick at Kubernetes, and with what Red Hat is doing with OpenShift, and a lot of the vendors in terms of integrating with CNI, to be able to plug in and tap in and be able to deliver that security and that relief. >> I get what you're saying. I think you've got a great thread there that I want to pull on a little bit. So, I think back at networking over the last few decades, we used to call it multi-vendor, now we call it multi-cloud, we've been talking about automation forever, but it's different now. So, I think that thread you were going on is part of that answer, but explain why now, multi cloud and automation, what's that's real about that compared to what we were talking about the dominant, hardware-led environment that we lived in for decades? >> Absolutely, I mean just you look at how people develop, look at containers, the lifetime of a container is very short compared to like a monolithic application, things that are more dynamic. Some enterprises need to scale up operations, and then that's where they kind of... So early on it was more like a developer testing things in their lab and when you go into production and the rate and the scale at which you operate, dictates that, you know, look, I need to work in public cloud, I need to work with bare metal, and then that, the amount of the infrastructure guys meet that demand otherwise those enterprises are not going to be able to serve their end customers. And that's why they're kind of working with us, and even the community's coming together to address these, and we're looking with-- for performance with the vendors and then even for networking and that's what's driving that. >> Yeah, I want to get your reaction, I was talking to somebody here at the show and they said "Kubernetes is a reset for SDN." >> Yep, it is! I mean the thing is, Kubernetes as it is is perfect, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel, right? There's a lot of adaption from developers' infrastructure. What we're trying to do is build around it, you'll see orchestration on top, you'll see networking, this is such a good thing that everybody is, and you can see by the level of attendance, the level of interest, and engagement, now what we're trying to do is like grow the operation. What are the problems that are left for an enterprise to solve? And that's the multi-cloud piece, right? How do you do policy, network and security policy in that hybrid environment, right? For example, you look at a retailer, they have users using mobile apps, they have remote stores, they have data centers, they have public cloud, and then they're using containers (mumbles) how do you stitch all that together? And that's for us, the challenge that we're addressing. >> And Kubernetes gives you a lot of policy knobs, how are you guys seeing that opportunity? 'Cause that's where people see that kind of piece. >> The three letters, API, right? This API makes integration such an easy thing to do. And then we have obviously, using a CNI plug-in from a (mumbles) perspective, to be able to work in that eco-system and deliver what we do. We have, obviously you guys know that in OpenStack, they're running Kubernetes inside OpenStack and then you have people running Kubernetes on bare metal, right? But it's still Kubernetes and that's how we're able to serve our customers to kind of stitch between between those different stories. >> Alright, Hussein, let's talk about security. So, you know, when containers first came out it was all this argument of how do I architect it? Do I have to shove the thing in a VM, or now is it a micro VM? How do I make sure I ensure security? What's working well? What do we still have a lot of work to do in the security space? >> I think if you look at the three areas: visibility, protection and then the third one is dynamic further response, right? So you can't protect what you can't see and visibility is kind of the first thing that we as networking, because we move packets around, can deliver to the enterprise. The second one is isolation, is that everything you have in a pod is contained. Now between pods, if you're running in public cloud, as a bank, you may want to encrypt that traffic, right? You need to do some level of protection, whether that's in-flight protection or separation between them. The third one is, as you're moving things around and you see bad things happen, you need to not wait for a person, because you're looking at scale, like thousands of these instances that are moving around. The network is intelligent enough to act based on rules that you give it to, like if there's a threat, we'll just quarantine the source or remove traffic. This combination is what's missing and that's kind of what a lot of... >> I think that's an opportunity that's clear, but most people look at networking and say "oh, let's move it from A to B, point A to point B." It's now so much more than that, it's more headroom. What is the specific headroom on top of that? Because there's a lot of security opportunities, things are moving around, you can see the bad guys and all kinds of different threats, but not just moving packets, it's other things. What's the other key things that people should pay attention to when really designing these architectures? >> So the one thing, obviously, when you're doing things in a lab, you're not really going by scale. You're not looking at throughput, latency, things like that that's part of networking and that's kind of the work we're doing with some of the, like Mellanox, you know? On terms of providing high-throughput, providing low latency for specific applications. The other one is, how do you provide that intelligence? Like all this data has to go somewhere to be processed, to work with other security solutions. Those are the two things that maybe people don't give that much thought early on, but as you scale your operations, they become real bottlenecks for you. >> So I want to get a chance for you to get a plug in for the company, DevOps. This infrastructure, this code has kind of been kicking around since the beginning. It's actually happening, a programmable infrastructure. You know, at the app layer for coding, but now network's programmable. What are you guys doing in that area? How are you guys extending that value proposition to your customers? Why are they going with you guys? Why are you guys winning? What's the one thing that people should know about in order to come to you guys? >> Flexibility and openness, that's the key one. We are hardware agnostic, any switch, any network, any hypervisor, any CMS, content management system, that's our focus is our networking and security. Similar to Kubernertes, you can run Kubernetes anywhere. That's how we provide networking and we have an open eco-system that gives you scale, performance and security without really limiting your options. And the thing is, we have all, going forward, like people can do stuff on premises today, they may move to cloud, we don't lock you in to one architecture. The architecture's fluid and it could be whatever. You may see the future one way today, but in a couple of months as we all know, things change. >> Why would someone call you guys up? What's the paying point? What's the value? When will they know, oh okay I've got to get Nuage involved? >> Scale, multi-cloud, that's basically it. If you're looking for multi-cloud, multiple workloads and you're running things at scale, you need to talk to us because that's basically where we help you solve it. >> Hussein, talk a little bit about how Edge fits into it too. You know when you think back to even before cloud, think back to the XSPs. Networking securities have always been the choke point, physics still rules the day. We know it's only getting more complicated with Edge, more surface area for security, but I have to imagine that applies into what you're doing. >> Absolutely, I mean we've done, so as you decompose these things and you move them apart, your attack services increase, right? So the security is, as you move, those communication channels have to be protected somehow. We have an extension which is basically part of getting into the Edge, adding more intelligence at the Edge, because that traffic is coming from the Edge to the core, it goes to public cloud. And being able, as a networking solution, to steer that traffic securely using encryption or whatever have you in terms of visibility, provides those enterprises with a secure, sound platform to really do their business. >> What's your take on the show? 8,000 people up from 4,000. We were comparing it earlier to Adobe's Reinvent. A rising tide, is it a tsunami? >> Absolutely, I mean I couldn't believe the number when they said it because obviously we saw they'd sold out the tickets, but coming here to see all that many people and there have been earlier shows and the growth is tremendous. >> Well thanks for coming for coming on and sharing your insight and congratulations on the scale, we love it. Data, scale, programmable networks, it's all part of the new evolution of cloud native. It's on premises, it's in the cloud, multiple workloads, multiple clouds. This is the choice everyone has, they're rebuilding. Don't forget networking compute and storage, it's still a Holy Trinity there. Congratulations, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> More live coverage here at theCUBE, here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, day three of three days of coverage, this is theCUBE, we'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> From Seattle. Washington. It's the key you covering Goob Khan and Cloud Native Con North America. Twenty eighteen. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partner. >> Okay. Welcome back. It runs the cubes. Live coverage of three days Wall to wall here at Koop Khan and Cloud Native Khan, twenty eighteen in Seattle, where day three only actions happening. Mr Keep John for was to Minuteman where you have bread. French Compton, Tina. Director, Technical Market had read, had breaking down the container storage trends and directions. Costly containers are super important. That's happened. Communities has happened. Now. New things were happening around a lot of innovation. Thanks for coming on the Q. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me back. >> So what's the state of the art of containers of trends? Some of the market directions? What's going on around containers? >> Well, here at this show, of course, it's been all about service mesh. Right is Theo. Service mesh, dynamically dynamic discovery, dynamic invocation of services. But all of those things Well, a certain percentage of those things, according to Keynote, require some type of persistent so eso yet service message, service meshes and persistence. >> So storage is a big part of the networking and compute all working together. The cloud that's been a big part of it. What's what's important here in this show? What's going on this week. That's really impacting that piece of it. That container in storage you mentioned state versus stateless work area stateless is to find people from persistence in state become important and applications. How much conversation's been here this week on that piece >> we'll talk about this week, and then I'll talk about the last couple of weeks this week. There, there. Couple of significant thing is going on. They're going to sort of unleash innovation in persistence as it pertains to the coup bernetti subsystem. First, of course, is a container storage inter. See, you know, today, all the all of the volume plug ins have been entry. You want to change. You know, some vendor wants to change their their storage capabilities. They need to re compile the binaries. Very slow. Very, very non agile. Of course, with the advent of the container storage interface, it's okay. Here's the common interface. All the all the volume plugging providers right to that interface so they could. Then they Khun Iterated to their heart's content without having to change the the entry >> source. So the impact is what? Speed, agility, >> agility of innovation, allowing all those guys t innovate Kind of the second thing. That's so that's man of discussion this week. Another thing's been a discussion you've seen in the in some of the sessions and stuff is the operator framework, you know, coming a champion by the Coral West guys, of course. Now part of Red hat, the operator framework in terms of effectively automating things that human operators would do for complex subsystems. Such a CZ storage. Eso basic installation based basic upgrades, you know, monitoring those services. So when you know something falls over, what do you do with that type of stuff? So I'd say C s I container storage interface as well as operator from me. Those are some of the things have been talked about this week. I still want to go back. Talk about last week, but go ahead. >> I wonder if you could tease this out a little before. So, you know, lost five years. You know, container ization, Cooper Netease. You know, massive change the way we think about architectures. Things like networking in storage. I have often been the anchor to kind of hold us down to be ableto make changes faster. Virtual ization helped some, but you know, container ization. We're gonna have to fix some of these same things. What conversations you're having with customers, You know, give us the latest on the, you know, the state versus state falls we heard in the keynote. It was They said forty percent of deployments have, you know, st full applications out there spending on numbers. And, you know, it's definitely has been growing. And at least I can do it as opposed to, you know, two years ago, it was like, Okay, we're doing containers, but we're just going to stateless for now, and we'll try to figure out what architectures goingto work. Even a year ago at this show, I heard in the back rooms there were lots of arguments as to which one of the storage projects was going to lead and seems seems like we're getting some maturity. I hope we hope to give us some visibility is where we are, and you know what's working and what still needs to be done. >> So although the industry talks about serve earless there, not yet talking about data lists, the or storage lists. I mean, you know, if we threw out the basic principle of data gravity data is the sun around which applications services rotate And so even I mean, even stateless aps stateless app Still do I owe frequently? The io of stateless apse is, you know, be arrest Will puts and gets to an object store that actually brings me. So let's let's talk about let's unpack the stateless and then let's go to St ful. So I'm gonna come back. Tio some of the conversations. A couple of weeks ago, Red had announced the acquisition of Nuba and Israeli Company. So when you think about what new Bob Plus sef due to provide stateless aps with a common set of Davis, a common set of David data services across the hybrid and multi cloud so those stateless app saying, Okay, I'm going to do I'm going to rest well puts and gets. But, man, it's complicated. If I'm gonna have to develop to various proprietary protocols I've got, you know, the is your blob protocol. I've got a W. S s three. I'm talking Teo Google persistent disc. And then if I want to run hybrid, I'm also talking to SEF objects storage on premises. And if I'm a developer I'm thinking, man, Wouldn't it be nice if I had a common set of David data services, including common protocol to talkto all of those different cloud storage back end? So, Nuba some people kind of call it a cloud storage controller provides that kind of common data services. So things like common FBI protocol? Um, things like mirroring. So you you want to write, right Once you're uprights once and it smeared across the various cloud object storage back ends to facilitate easy migration. The second one I wanna uproot to move over here. Your data is already there. So that's, uh that's a couple of reasons. And some of the conversation from a couple weeks ago about how Nuba plus self are helping stateless aps get Teo hybrid and multi cloud >> this. I think that is a great point. You have a hybrid cloud and multi cloud coming around the corner, which is about choice, Right? But see, I CD pipe lining of having a consistent developer environment clearly is one of the main benefits we're seeing in this community here. Okay, I got some sulfur developers with crank teams move around that consistency, no matter where were the environment is just really good goodness. Their storage is interesting and data is that because you're right, the sun is the data and every is orbiting around it. That's the Holy Grail. This is what people want. They want addressable data. They wanted real time. They wanna have an access. They don't want to do all this code to configure manage data, and it's complicate. Got data warehouses? You got time. Siri's data so date is getting more complicated, but it needs to be simple. So this is kind of challenge of the industry. How are you guys seeing that with open ship? How is your container piece fit in? How do you guys make that easy for customers to say? Look, I want to have that data like I wanted intelligent, that brick of access to data. So my abs don't have to do all the heavy lifting almost like Dev ops for data. It's like day tops, like I need to have programmable data on the absolutely which, which have thoughts on that. >> So first I wanna I wanna address that in two ways. The first is about open shipped itself that what you described is in fact, the sweet spot of what open shift is providing a common set of Cooper Nettie Services. Plus. See, I see the pipeline services for developers and operation staff independent of your cloud infrastructures. So whether open shift is running on top of a heavy west, whether it's running on top of his your whether it's running on top of the G, C. P. Whether it's running on premises on bare metal, you know, common set of cou bernetti services and CD pipeline services. Okay, that so what you described there's wanted to just highlight that That is open ship hybrid multi >> valuable check. That's awesome data >> now coming down. Coming down to data. So, in fact, open shift container storage is the mirror analog to open shift for that, providing a common set of Cooper Netease volume services. Independent of what? The storage substrate. ID. So think about it. If you're If you're inside of eight of us, you've got CBS is what's you know? When in Rome, act as the Romans. You've got E. B s there when you're inside of eight of us. Well, the type of communities volumes service of the CBS provides natively differed them for instance, when you're on premises and it's surfacing via and NFS plug in, maybe different. Likewise. We're inside of a CZ. You're with your persistent disco, so open shift container storage device the same type of abstraction Lee are providing a common set of cou bernetti communities volumes services independent of what? The storage server layer is so >> cool you guys was tracked away the complexity. So the APP developer doesn't do anything about storage on those discreet platforms, >> doesn't know anything about storage and provides a common set of services instead of Well, let's see, this is running on this cloud. I don't have the have a different set of services, so common set of services. >> So one of things I love about talking right out of the shows is you actually have a lot of customers that are doing this way. Actually, we spoke to one of your customers yesterday. Talk about how you know communities is helping them create sustainable data centers over in Europe. In the Nordics, especially so communities is awesome. But what's really awesome is the things that we can do on top of it. I wonder if you've got, you know, help connect some of this toe. You know, your customers really things, you know? How does this, you know, change the game? How does it change their teams? You know, what can you share with us? >> One of things that I can't. What's what's top of mind. So what's not top of mind for me at the moment is you know what kind of knew how their reinventing the world what is top of mind with me right now? We've just been studying. Our our results is we look back and this is a little bit of a A Okay? It's a trend, but it's a different kind of friend you're talking about. In the last six quarters, we've had six hundred percent growth with open ship container storage. Um, so And now we send last six quarters were also at a point. Now we're seeing some of those same folks from the Nordics here. You're describing that are coming back now, you know, they have experimented on, So there are some There are Cem Cem cruise ship. There's a cruise ship company that is deployed this on on ships. What we're now seeing. What's very gratifying for us is they're coming back now for a second pass. Now, a year into it, it's okay. Clearly, it must be providing enough value that you come back. Okay. I want to buy this for another ship or more shifts. That's gratifying for us. The first year was, let's see. Let's try this uber Netease, this open ship container store stuff out. But, you know, coming back to the trough for another take, It's good for us. >> And what's going around the corner? He opens shifting, doing great. I love this abstraction layer we're seeing for the first time in the industry, clear visibility and a real value proposition. When I were joking yesterday, you know, we were at open stack years ago, or even Cube con three years ago. We would ask the question If you had a magic wand, what would you hope to have happened? It's actually some of the things that are actually happening. I mean, clean, heavy lifting is gone, and all the developer side consistency, productivity, better advantage on the application development side and then taking away all the hassles of having that she trained people on multiple clouds. So this is kind of happening. What's next? So what's the next next, uh, bowling pin to fall down? What's the, you know, Hit the front ten. What's next? What's going on? How do you guys see the next innovation around Open ship and storage containers, >> cloud independent data services and mobility. So independent of the clouds. And again, it's hybrid, too. So you don't want to be locked into your own cloud either. So cloud independent data services and mobility. So he said, Listen, I want to be I want to have a common de doop compression mirroring, but I want to sit in the layer above my clouds back to the data gravity thing. I want to ensure that my data is where I need it on different clouds. So I'm elevating to a new layer this this cloud storage controller, this this cloud independent set of data services way. Think that's where the pucks going? >> Yeah, I think the data date is critical, I think. Way said years ago. Data ops. There's a Dev ops model for data. You look at that way's not just putting into a data lake actually making it useful. Yeah, Thanks. Come on. Cuba. Here. Bringing all the data here. The Cube. We're sharing it here. Live in Seattle. Is our third year coop coming there from the beginning? That's the cubes coverage of Cloud Native Khan and Coop gone. Bring all the action here. Was red hot on the Cube. Back with more live coverage. Stay with us. Day three, three days ago off the wall. Coverage will be back after this short break.

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. [techno Music] >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE's live coverage in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Stu Miniman. Breaking down all the action. Talking to all the thought leaders, all the experts, all the people making it happen. We're here with Aparna Sinha who's the group product manager, Kubernetes, Google Cloud. Also one of the power women of the Cloud at Google, according the Forbes. I wrote the story. Great to see you again. >> Thank you, great to be here with you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> CUBE alumni. Great to have you on. I want to get your prospective. One when you've seen a lot of action, certainly overseeing the group engineering team at Google and all the Kubernetes action. A lot of contribution, a lot of activity, that you guys are leading. >> Yes. >> And quite frankly enabling and contributing to the community. So, congratulations and thanks for that work. Kubernetes certainly looking good. People are pumped up. >> Very much. >> 8,000 people. A lot of activity. A lot of new things around that you guys are always kind of bringing into, the Geo, knative, a lot things. You gave a key note. What's your focus here this year? What's the message from Google? >> Yeah, well as you pointed out, this is the largest KubeCon ever. 8,000 people, 2,000 on the wait list. And people are telling me here that this is the... This is here to stay, right? It's in the early majority going to the mainstream very much like you kind of think about virtualization was 10 years ago. So that's the momentum that I'm seeing here, that I'm hearing here. My keynote was about the community. Thanking the community first of all. So I talked about how open-source really, success in contingent on contribution. And so, I started by showing the contribution over the last one year, the companies that are contributing. And 80% of contributions are by at least 10 entities. One of them is individual contributors. 40% percent I think was Google, which is still staggeringly high. And then the next highest was Red Hat. And so I think in many of the keynotes, we've been calling out the contributors because it's really important. 1.13, the 13th release of Kubernetes shipped last week. A lot of stability, a lot of GA features, and the uptake in the enterprise. The other thing I called out was just the amount of job opportunity in Kubernetes >> Yeah >> 230% growth in the last year. You see here so many customers that are here to talk about their experience. But also they're here to hire. >> Yeah. And there recruiters on the floor, so it's been I think a huge economic value add. And we feel very proud of that. >> Yeah, Aparna, great point. We've been talking about the end users. I always loved... There's a job board right outside the hall here and it's just covered. Big giant white board there. Bring us inside a little bit. I mean Google's always fascinating people. What's the hiring situation there? What's your team lookin' like? Is anybody smart enough to actually go work there? >> Google, I think we've been very, very fortunate in that we've had the original board team that started the Kubernetes project. And so we have a really, really deep bench because we've been running containers since the beginning. So now 15 years of experience with that, which many people tell me, I think that the reason that Kubernetes is so successful is because it's not new actually, right? >> Yeah >> It's been tried and true at scale. So, we have quite a bit of that, but we've been building this community and a lot of folks have been hired in through the community-- >> Yeah >> into Google. And really amazing, amazing people. So yeah. >> The thing about we had Brian Grant on yesterday and Tim Hockin -- Yes. >> Who was talking about some of those early board days. >> Yes. I want to ask you your point of about the hiring because I think this is a interesting dynamic. Open-source is key to your strategy. We've talked many times about how you guys are committed to open source, but what's interesting is not just net new jobs are available, we're seeing a revitalization around traditional roles like the network engineer under Kubernetes. Looking at the policy knobs that your folks pointed out that's... They think it's underutilized. And then on top of Kubernetes, new things are going on that's getting the app kind of server guy-- >> Yeah. >> Kind of energized. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of enabling a lot of thing, actions that's transforming existing jobs. >> That's right. >> And bringing new ones. >> Talk about that dynamic because you see it from both sides. >> Yes >> You've got SREs, site reliable engineers. >> Yes >> You've got developers. But, Now enterprises are now trying to adopt... >> That's right >> You guys are hitting that note. Talk about that dynamic. >> That's right, so I've been talking to a lot of customers here, it's been non-stop. I've not been able to attend any talks or keynotes. And I'm seeing two things. One there's the kind of operations now called platform teams. And they're under tremendous pressure. They're doing incredible work. Incredible. And they're energized. They're really... So one of the customers I was talking to was moving from VMs on EC2 to containers on GCE on Kubernetes. Google Cloud. And in the last one year, they looked... Honestly, they looked miserable because they have worked so hard in doing that transfomation. Turning their application from a VM-based application into containers. But you could also see that they were so happy and so successful because of the impact that it's had. And so and then I asked them so like, "What is driving that?" This is different customer. What is driving that? And it's really... As soon they get that environment up and running, and this is a large enterprise bank that I was talking to, this other one, their developers are just all over it. And they have, they have hundreds of services running within six months. And they're like, "Well we just got this platform up. "We still have to figure how we're going to upgrade it." But it's... So those are the two constituents. The developers are happy. >> The integration and delivery changes the makeup of how teams work. So that's one thing we're seeing here. And the other one is just scale. >> Yeah. >> So that seems to be the area. Now I got to ask you, as you guys look at... As you guys are doing the work on the enterprise side, you guys, I know you're working hard, I talk to Jennifer a lot, Jennifer Lynn, as well and we've talked before, are used to doing the work. But there's still a lot more work done. Where do you guys see the work that this community value opportunities for participants in the eco-system to fill white spaces? Where are the value lines starting to be drawn? Can you comment? >> Yeah, so I see two or three different areas. One of the areas is of course hardening. And that's why Janet Quill gave the keynote about "Kubernetes is boring and that's a good thing". And that's been something we've been working on for the last year at least. Adding a lot more security capabilities. Adding a lot more just moving everything to GA, right? Adding a lot more hooks in the enterprise storage and into enterprise networking. Building up the training and building up the partners that'll do the implementations. All of those things I think are very, very healthy. >> Yeah. >> Cause I see them. You probably talked to the CNCF. They're helping a lot with the certification and the training. So that's one piece of enterprise adoption. I think the other piece is the developer experience. And that's where a lot of the talks here, my key note as well, I demoed Istio and Knative on top of GKE. The developer experience is ultimately this whole thing. My perspective, this whole thing is about making your developers more productive. And developers have been driving this transition. Again going back to those customer examples. So that's getting a lot easier. >> Yeah, Aparna, I'd love you to talk a little about Knative. So, I know the excitement is there. Products only been around for five months. I remember at your show last summer it was announce and roll. Trying to understand exactly what it is. It's like, wait, wait is serverless going to kill Kubernetes? And how does this fit? How does this work with all the various services in the Cloud? Maybe just understand where we are. >> Right. >> What it is, what it isn't. >> Right. >> Again, so the heritage of serverless, I'm going to go back to Google, right? We have the first serverless offering in the world like 10 years ago. And so that's based on containers. Underneath it's based on containers. That's why we knew that with Kubernetes that's the right foundation for building serverless. And it actually, I think, we sort of held back for the longest time. And a couple of years ago there were one, two, and then 15, and then 17 serverless frameworks that just kind of all popped up around Kubernetes, on top of Kubernetes. I remember the first demo in the community. Here's this serverless piece. And at some point, a little bit over a year ago we decided that actually serverless is really important to our customers, to our users. The majority of Kubernetes tends to be on-prem, actually. And so it's important to them to have serverless capabilities on-prem. So then we need to make sure it's stable and it's something that's standard. >> I think it's a really important point... I talked to some people that are in the serverless ecosystem that is living on a AWS and they say, "You can't build serverless on-prem "because then you're racking "and stacking and dealing with it." And it's not... We know there's servers underneath of it and it's just system calls and how we consume that. But maybe explain the nuances to how this is important and we understand it. >> Yeah. >> There's not like a solution out there. >> Yeah. >> Server meshes, there's a lot of options out there right now. >> Yeah. >> So. >> A lot of things, because this is an open-source community, a lot of things come from the users. So when the user says, "You know what, actually need "the serverless capability on-prem. "Why? "Because I've got this developer group and I don't want "them to have to muck with the infrastructure. "I don't want them to have access to the infrastructure. "I want to just give them a simple interface "where they're going to write their applications "and the rest is taken care of for them." Right? And then I want to be able to bill them on a per-use basis. So, it's... Yeah there's someone managing the server. Someone building actually the severless capability and that's the platform team. That's the guys that I talked about that are working very hard these days happily. But, working very hard. >> And these are the new personas, by the way-- >> Yeah. >> In the enterprise. This is new kind of new re-architecting of how enterprises are creating value. These new platform teams. >> Right. >> This is the opportunity. Well I got to ask you, you know everyone that watches theCUBE knows I'm a big fan of scale. Love Amazon scale. I love Google scale. I love the enterprise market. And I want to get your thoughts... I want you to take a minute to explain the culture at Google Cloud. Because it's a separate building. Give you an opportunity to share. But you guys are working hard to go after the enterprise. It's not like a new thing. But the enterprise is interesting. It's not so much the best technology that wins. It's grit. It's almost like a street fight. You got to go out. You got to win those battles. Get all the work done. Hit those features. You can't just roll into town and say we've got great technology. We're Google. You guys recognize this. And I want you to share the culture you guys are building and how you guys are attacking the enterprise. What's the guiding principles? What are some of the core tenants? >> Yeah, yeah. So you know my entire life has been spent in enterprise software. >> Yeah. >> I do think that enterprises respect Google Cloud. I work very closely with them. And they respect certainly the engineering prowess. Like, "Wow. I need that." >> Yeah. Right? Especially you see all these enterprises that are being transformed by technology. Their industry is being transformed by technology. Whether that's in transportation, or it's in retail, or it's in media. And they want the best. They want the latest. Right? And they also don't necessarily have the skills, like you said, right? So they're looking for a partner that'll both help them scale up but also provide them all of that guidance. And the one thing you asked about culture at Google. I think we are a revolutionary company. We are willing to do lots of things. Lots of things that you wouldn't expect. And that's why you saw GK on-prem from my team, right? The first, kind of, Kubernetes on-prem offering from a cloud provider. Managed by a cloud provider. And that's really... I mean we've seen tremendous, tremendous interest in that. Tremendous feedback from our users and new customers. People that hadn't thought about it. Hadn't thought about Google, necessarily before that have said, "Wow. If you are going to come and help me on-prem "with this, I'm ready. "Give it to me now. "Because I trust you and I know I want to go to the Cloud. "So it's the right step for me. "You have the right incentives." Right? "And you're the open cloud, which is important to me "because I may want to be multi cloud." So that's the piece that is... >> You got the enterprise chops. You've spent your whole career there. I know Jennifer as well. >> Yes. >> A lot of people you guys have hired. >> Right. >> The good news is you've got a market that's changing. So you don't have to come in and replicate the old IT. So that's an opportunity at Google. How are you guys attacking that, that beachhead? Because you have the check. What's the vibe? What's the grit? What's it like... How you guys attacking the enterprise? What do you see as opportunities knowing the enterprise of old-- >> Yeah >> As it shifts to new kind of method? >> Yeah. >> What's the core? >> I think about the problems the users are having. I think about what is the problem the customer is facing. And so... And then breaking that down and solving that for them. I mean that's what's important, right? And so some of the problems I see is one they need a developer platform. And the developer platform sometimes cannot be in the Cloud. When I talk to large financial institutions, there's so much compliance and regulation and things that have to be on-prem. That it has to be on-prem. And they try to move to the Cloud and some things will do it. But the majority, like 90% is on-prem. And so they need an agile development environment and there's no holding it back. Because, like I said, there's all this transformation. Their developers need that environment today. So you have to provide that. That's one use case. We provide an on-prem development and agile development environment. Best in class. Your developers are super happy. Your business is going to do well. The other thing I see, and I see this a lot in retail, but also in hospitality at some of these very kind of brick and mortar enterprises is the edge. They need a solution at their edge location. Thousands, these are thousands of branch locations. We've even got this use case with Chick-fil-A, right? And a lot of times this is... A lot of different use cases, but a lot of time the common thing is that they're collecting data. They're doing some processing at that site and then they're doing further processing in the Cloud. And so it's a connected, but an intimately, it's not always connected.... Intimately connected environment. So that's the second big use case. Edge retail or just edge. There's so many... For me, it's one of the most exciting. There's so many examples of that. >> Awesome. >> Aparna, first of all, just so many goodness I want to say thank you to Google because everything from I heard at the show Google wasn't giving out swag because it actually went to charitable givings instead of spending that money. One of the things we always look is open-source is, how much more value is being created for the eco-system not just the vendor that started it. And it is a really tough balance. We've seen it fail many times. Do you step too far back? And how much do you engage? How do you strike that bound? For the last five to 10 years, we've been saying, "Where is the independent place where we can have that "conversation about cloud?" We think found it at this show. I mean we've been here for three years now. Google Cloud, phenomenal event. Our teams loves to be there, but this feels like overnight has turned into oh wait, here's the show we were looking at to have that conversation. To have that commons where we can come together and there's so many diversity of people, diversity of projects in here. Many which have very disconnected from original Kubernetes and everything, so. It's been fascinating to watch and have to imagine your team is... When you watch that first piece go and everything that's built around it. It's got to be amazing. >> My team loves this event. We have literally I think 300 people here. And a lot of them are core maintainers. Everybody is a contributor, but they are core maintainers of the Kubernetes project. The Istio project. The Knative project. And I think the best thing here is just interacting with our users. Because this is a developer, this is a developer conference, primarily. There's a lot of businesses here. >> Yeah >> With their kind of director level executives. But primarily it's an action-oriented hands-on audience. And you just... These customer meetings that I have, we review their architecture and we're like... It's an engineer to engineer conversation. >> Yep. >> And so how can we make that better? And sometimes they're contributing back and it makes the whole project better. >> Yeah. The thing, too, is it's an engineering, it's a developer conference, true. But what's interesting about that evolution as it modernizes, those end users are developers. >> That's right. >> And so the end user aspect of this show. >> That's right. >> Is the developer piece. >> That's right. >> It never used to be like that. Used to be COMDEX or some big event. >> Yeah. >> And then people just selling their stuff. >> Yeah. >> Doing business. The end user participation... >> Yes. >> Is not a consumption conversation, it's a contribution. >> Right. And end users are all over the spectrum of sort of really, really hands-on. Very, very smart to just give me something that works and I respect all of that, right? And we were actually very far here in terms of GKE. Giving you something that you really don't need to get in, that's fully managed, right? But then on the other hand we had Uber on stage earlier today in their keynote talking about how they've built all of this advanced capability on GKE. And that's a power user. That's using all their capabilities. Like custom additions and an operator. And it's just really gratifying I think for us to work with them and for us to see the user base as well as the community. So the ecosystem. Google. I thinks it's very important for us to have and create economic opportunity for our partners. And you'll see that with GKE on-prem. We're partnering heavily on that one. And you'll see that also in our marketplace. Our Kubernetes marketplace. So many of the companies that have come out of this ecosystem are now part of selling through Google Cloud. >> Aparna, thank you for your time. I know you've had to move some things around to come here. Great to have you on. I love your leadership at Google, it's phenominal. You've got the enterprise chops building out heavily over there. Congratulations. And for more CUBE interviews check out theCUBE dot net. You can check out Aparna's other good news. Of course search her name on Forbes. I wrote a story about her featuring her. Talking about her background and her passion. Always great to have her on theCUBE and get some commentary from Google. Of course, theCUBE is breaking down live coverage. Been there from the beginning of KubeCon and now CloudNativeCon, the Linux Foundation. Bringing you all the analysis and insight. Be back with more coverage after this short break. [Techno Music]

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud native computing foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello and welcome back to theCUBE's live coverage day three here, theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier, with Stu Miniman, and Justin Warren here to break down the action. Justin Warren, as you know, is Guest Analyst for us at many events, Chief Analyst at PivotNine, coming all back over here again, to break it down. So we're going to dissect what's going on here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. This is, some say, me, the last stand to stop Amazon. Justin, good to see you. >> Good to see you as well, man. Stu, my first question is, as the show winds down, day three, a lot of people have left, all the big execs are gone, it's kind of last day, people coming together, party was last night, so we kind of see all the action, we kind of fished this pond dry, in theCUBE here, the last couple of days. The themes are starting to emerge. What are you seeing, what's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, John, 8,000 people, this is, you know, geeks that are really excited, and I mean that in the best of ways, of course. There's actually, there were people here before the show started, doing lightning talks and full day sessions. Tomorrow, there's an operative session that another 250 or 300 people will be doing Friday, so, you know, and people want to just suck the marrow out of the bone that is everything going on here, just get every ounce of knowledge here, and they are deep into this session, so, this is a great community. The question I want to ask you guys is you were at Amazon re:Invent two weeks ago. We've watched that show. I want the compare and contrast of this ecosystem and show, not just compare it to like, say, open stack, which we've been teasing apart all week, and I think there are some things we need to worry about, but a lot of good differences. But compare against the big one in the room, which is Amazon, and a big difference is Amazon is here, and they have a seat at the table, because they have to, and customers will force them there, but you know, should this worry Amazon, and how does this ecosystem compare with the Amazon ecosystem. The big thing for me is, I understand how people make money in the ecosystem of Amazon. I'm still trying to figure that out here. >> Yeah, eh, it is a different ecosystem. It does have a bit of a vibe of it could be the new re:Invent. We've had conversations over the last couple of days about-- >> Or is this the independent cloud, >> Exactly. >> You know, open ecosystem. >> It is the independent show that we've been waiting for, that we've wanted since COMDEX and Interop kind of went away, and it's all been vendor shows, and now we have an independent show where all the vendors can come and have kind of a neutral meeting place, and we can all gather together and have some common ground, which is like, that's what Kubernetes is. I've been saying over the last couple of days, Kubernetes is like the ethernet of cloud, so it's something which is an agreed standard and we can all collaborate on, and then, you never bet against ethernet. So know you can build all these other things on top of that platform, yeah. >> Just a quick note on that, right, that's Interop, and networking was at the core of that. It was basically everybody, oh, it's the chance of if we give true interoperability, maybe we can do multi-vendor and it won't all be Cisco, who dominated that market. Amazon's the same. >> Stu, this is to me, ethernet's a great example. I say TCPIP as well. Both are enabling technologies that are standardized, or actually started as de facto standards. They weren't necessarily bona fide standards. They emerged when people rallied around them. Those de facto standards, emerge and become a catalyst point for people to build on top of and around. Remember, there's still a lower level below the stack on ethernet. So you had, you know, physical data link layer in the OSI model, the grandfather of all stacks. That really changed, I think, 20 years of growth and innovation. I think Kubernetes is, exactly right, Justin, it's exactly your point. I see that as well, that it's not so much Kubernetes is going to be the be all end all. It's what it enables, and I think the innovations on top of Kubernetes, and underneath Kubernetes, take the holy trinity, I've been saying this on theCUBE now for the past year, the holy trinity of infrastructure and IT is storage compute networking, and those things are now being repurposed in a way that is highly scalable, dynamic, and resourceful for a lot of things. AI is a great example, everyone talks about AI, but storage policy, the knobs in Kubernetes can manage, and Google saying the guys of Kubernetes. That's one of the most underutilized aspects of Kubernetes, is the networking guys managing the knobs from below, and then app guys with servers messing maybe on the top. This is just an absolute growth engine, and the comparison to Amazon is similar, because Andy Jassy talks about builders, the right tool for the job. This is essentially the same mantra. I mean, this is tools, platforms. >> It's very similar, but with one very important difference, and around the money side of things. You don't have this massive behemoth which is going to come in, and one year you're on the keynote, and the next year we just announced a product, which completely killed your business. It's open source. That's not really going to happen. So you've got that common core of things, where there's no real competitive advantage on this stuff. So that's, you know, Linux, where's the competitive advantage on a kernel? There isn't one. So open source makes great sense for that kind of core of things that you then build upon, and then all the money is in all the innovation, all the value add that goes on top of that, and that makes a huge amount of sense to have an open source show for that. >> And I think, Stu, one of the things that we always talk about, networking in cloud, I think the concept of cloud is going to be old hat. You heard it here first on theCUBE. Because cloud is Amazon, cloud is a set of resources. When we start thinking about IoT at the edge, when you talk about moving compute to the edge, you're going to start to see mesh networks, peer to peer, and add a new kind of platform configurations that isn't necessarily cloud. It's a new thing. It's a platform, open platform, and there's going to be some incentives that are going to be designed for startups, that's economically beneficial to the new kinds of things, versus the economic incentives that Amazon might not have, to do things. So I think we're going to see emergence of new stuff. I would still say that cloud is a state of mind, it's not a location. And we here, it's CloudNativeCon. It's not just KubeCon. It's about doing things in a cloud native way, and that, like you say, it doesn't matter where it is or how it communicates together, but it's the way you operate it, it's the way it actually works in practice. It's not so much of, oh, we're going to build it here and we're going to put it in that cloud, or that cloud, or that cloud. >> And I think we've had some real clarity as to what that future of multi cloud looks like, 'cause it's not one massive cloud everywhere, it's not, oh, my applications spanning all over the place. It's we're working to solve that really tough problem of distributed architectures, and giving us ways that I shouldn't have to think about where I am spinning that up, or if I need to change vendor, not necessarily portability, you still do have some lock in, because Kubernetes is not the full stack, it's a piece of the overall platform, and while there's 75 different versions here that are all compliant, I should be able to move between them, but the devil's in the details, and there's lots of stuff that goes on top. >> Let's talk about multi cloud for a second. 'Cause you mentioned COMDEX, you talked about ethernet. At that time, during those big revolutions, the word multi-vendor was a big buzz word. Multi-vendor was like the basis of COMDEX. We all got to play together. Multi-vendor meant choice. Today, multi cloud is just a modern version of multi-vendor. >> Exactly, it's multi-vendor, and that's what enterprises want. Enterprises are a bit wary now. We hear lots of conversation about lock in, and that comes up a lot, and it's a real thing. Enterprises are concerned, they don't want to bet on one company, and then find out that actually, it's technology, it changes, things need to be moved around. We don't want to wake up in five, six years, and then suddenly find, oh my god, I can't change anything because I'm locked into this one vendor. >> So, Justin, they say they want multi-vendor. When it came to networking, I spent years working on interoperability, and plug tests, and all these things, and at the end of the day, it was way better to get my standards plus with a single vendor than it was to try to loop them together, and then, oh, when I changed something, so hopefully the difference here is actually, we have loosely coupled services, we have APIs, so can we actually do multi-vendor, multi-cloud that doesn't stress out my team, and have, every time I want to make a change, or they make a change, it moves. The new cloud world should be, things change, you know, it changes upstream, and downstream, I get to use them. So, once again, we talk about the shiny nirvana of, oh, you know, it's serverless, and the old trinity of computer storage. I don't even need to worry about that, 'cause it'll just work, but wait, if something goes wrong, I've been talking to a bunch of vendors here, that actually, how do I get observability, and manageability, to be able to drill down, because things could still go wrong. >> Well, you heard Bloomberg, we had an end user come on, it's a very interesting point, and Dan Khan, from the executive director, well, Bloomberg's kind of a different case, but look at what Bloomberg does. The guy said to us, "I actually don't want to buy "these products and services. "I just want to pay them money "to be available to support me "when I need support." 'Cause Bloomberg has fully integrated all their support internally. I think that's a trend that we're going to see in the enterprise, where CIOs start building teams, real software chops. It might not be as big as Bloomberg, but the notion of, we're going to run our own stuff. We'll use management services where appropriate, but we're going to have a core software build strategy, and I can't wait. An SLA of four hour response time. I need like, minutes. >> And that's how, I think, where we don't have the answers yet. There are still a lot of questions that enterprises are trying to work out about how do I actually do that. So you mentioned Bloomberg, and I interviewed them a few months ago, wrote something in Forbes about them. They are a special case in that they have chosen that we're going to invest in this technology so that we have people on staff, in our company, who understand Kubernetes. Now, that's not a choice that every enterprise is going to make, but they decided that actually, this technology, this software is so important to our business, to where we get all the value for our business that we need to invest in that technology. And I think a lot of enterprises are realizing that, actually, outsourcing everything to one vendor, and then giving all of your innovation engine to someone else, and they're realizing that was a mistake. Now, they're trying to figure out, okay, what do we bring in house, what do we do ourselves, what do we get vendors to do, which technologies do we use for what particular value creation, and that complexity, that decision making process, that's what we haven't quite worked out yet, and that's where I think there's a lot of value in the ecosystem, with service providers who can provide advice on here is how you should do it, based on what you need to do. >> That's a great point. Stu, I want you to comment on that. Let's refine this for a second, 'cause the people who actually spend the money, or the people re-imagining IT infrastructure, IT applications. The CIO, I've interviewed the VP of Advanced Technology at Proctor and Gamble, and he told me, when he came in, he came from Coca Cola, he's been an old IT guy, he says, look, we outsourced everything to the point where we're anemic. We got a couple of storage guys, they're pushing buttons, they're jumping on, calling the vendors, they outsource everything. He says they had no ability to create a competitive advantage for the business, and what they moved quickly to was to bring talent in to be builders, to be in house. So now you have that trend happening in the modern CIO, CXO kind of roles. Now you have to say, okay, I got teams here. How do I get the investments deployed, how do I go to this ecosystem here with all these tools, all these capabilities, how do I invest, how do I build out. >> Look, I think Kelsey Hightower had a great point when we interviewed him this week. It is a huge opportunity for managed services, because like we talked about, the Amazon, or even the ecosystem, how do I keep up with all of this, and the answer is, you don't. You need to be able to have people, whether it's system integrators, or partners that are going to help that. You know, look, Amazon gets criticized for not being deeper in open source. Well, they use a lot of open source and they deliver those services, and they make it easy. Frictionless is something we talked about for many years as being the thing. The enterprise wants to be able to spend money and just go do it, because they don't have a team to pitch these. Even somebody like Bloomberg, or some of these really big companies I love, talking, you've got Apple, and Nordstrom, and some really interesting, oh, by the way, and they're all hiring. Whether or not they're actually using Kubernetes, they cannot confirm or deny, but you know, we know how that goes. >> Hold on, first, let's unpack the end user piece here, okay? Amazon is pushing 5,000 reference-able customers. Okay, it's not about the Amazon question. End users here, how many reference-able customers are here? What are they actually, Uber's here, they're hiring. They might have some Kubernetes stuff in the background. Sure, they probably do. But actually, what does the end user adoption really look like? I mean... >> It's still early, but again, a difference between this show and Amazon re:Invent. How many end customers have a booth at re:Invent? Compared to here, where we have people, end customers who are here mostly to try to hire talent. They have booths. >> Kudos to the CNCF. They've got 80 end users participating. There are a lot of users here. This is not the vendor fest that we see at some shows when they get big. I hear they're not seeking the vendors. The vendors that I talked to were happy because they are the users here, and they're excited. Before we go, John, there's a couple kinks in the armors and things we need to worry about. The two, if I look at service meshes, and I look at serverless as a huge threat. One of the things I wanted to look at coming in was I'd heard a lot of talk about Knative, and I think Knative is great, but it is not, you know, Lambda is the defacto standard, just like S3 was before. Lambda is this, and Knative has absolutely nothing to do with Lambda and does not connect with it. It is the difference between serverless and functions, and so, all the AWS functions and all the Azure functions have nothing to do with Knative. For the people that looked at OpenWhisk and all these other options, Knative seems a good way to pull, they've done a re-spin of what's happening there, and it's moving things down the line. Once again, as Kelsey said, if we look at serverless as a spectrum, which many of the hardcore serverless people will debate and argue, and be like, that's not real, serverless, well, just like we said, there is only one real cloud, and it was Amazon. We know that's not the case. It will be a spectrum, we want to meet customers where they are. So, Knative, good news, but the elephant in the room is that AWS and Azure are where all of the serverless really happens, and therefore, there is a big air gap between them. Justin, service mesh is something I know you've been looking at. Give it to us the good, bad, and the ugly. >> Service mesh is really, really early. So, we're at that part where there's a diversity of innovation going on. There's about 12, or at least 12 different companies here at the show, who are all doing something with service mesh. They're all trying to sell you a different solution. This is what happens with technology. A new technology gets created, and we have this flurry of all these startups, who are all trying different things. And this is the destructive force of capitalism. Not all of them are going to succeed, but we have to have them all out there in the market, because at the moment, it's too early to figure out, okay, well, it's definitely going to be that one. If we knew that one, then I'd be putting all of my money behind that one company today. >> Last year, Justin, all the talk was about SDO. I've heard a lot of talk about SDO, but it hasn't all been good. >> No, that's the thing. So we've had a year now, and last year was definitely, hey, SDO is like, the service mesh. Like, not so much. Envoy seems to be the common ground that people are actively using. That's what most people are building on top of. So it looks like Envoy's going to be that underlayer of everything else. But in terms of how you actually use service mesh, it's still very early, and people are trying to figure out how to do I use this quite complex technology in practice? And as people use it more, as we get more adoption, then we'll start to see that one or two of the methods and the approaches will win out over all of the others, and that's where we can expect to see, well, I have an anointed winner. That will then win out, because it's useful, because it's functional, because end users want to do it that way. >> And Envoy, by the way, had traction. They had a sold out EnvoyCon. On the first day, 350 people, Lyft is driving that, and they're just heads down, solving problems. I think that seems to be the formula for some of the successful products, where you take away all the window dressing and the hype. It comes down to who's solving what problems. >> And that's the thing with open source. You can't just throw a whole bunch of marketing dollars at it to make it succeed. If end users don't like the code, and they don't use it, then it won't work. >> John, I want you to give us the word on the open source business model. We watched in the last year, Red Hat bought CoreOS for 250 million, then they were acquired by IBM for 34 billion, pending final, and all that stuff and everything, and then, reading through the VMware, SCC filing $550 million for Heptio. You know, big, big dollars, so, is open source just getting a lot of customers, and they get acquired by the big guys? What's the take? >> I think it's interesting. First of all, Red Hat might not like what I'm about to say, but I'll just say it. I think there was a steal with CoreOS. If you look at what Heptio got for valuation, CoreOS was an absolute steal. The team was phenomenal, they were doing some amazing work. At that time of the acquisition, the debate of how to make money dominated versus just getting behind the technology, and I think CoreOS was a fantastic team, and they had the right tracking. You can see what's happening now with now part of the Red Hat. So, Red Hat got a massive lift on that, so I think, kudos to Red Hat for taking that up the table at that time. Great acquisition, I think that helped them propel, and now show that to IBM that there's real value there. Now, I think open source as a business model is interesting because it's changing, right? You now have a new generation of builders and developers coming in. Open source has to evolve, and I think the CNCF I think is a cutting edge experiment or Petri dish of how to stay true to open source principles, and still nurture and enable a downstream impact for the commercialization. I think it's an opportunity, but it's also one of their biggest challenges, because if this is COMDEX, COMDEX is an open source. It's hawking wares, right? So it's a different business model. So, this is going to be a very interesting test in the industry to see how the current open source momentum, which is looking really strong right now, how that can interplay with commercialization, because certainly, the money's there, the value's there, and if we can get these value spots identified, the white spaces for startups, and let the big guys also play as well, it's going to be a very interesting landscape, it's certainly dynamic. I don't have the answers, but my gut's telling me that a whole new level of sets of services and platforms are going to be composed around these services, and I think it's all going to be driven by open source, that's clear. How it shapes out, valuations and the talent buys, the momentum, market buy, we'll be watching, I don't know. >> Yeah, it's exciting times. We're here at the beginnings of what I hope is going to be this massive new ecosystem, and we get to watch it grow, we get to watch it change. It's a great place to be. >> All I can say, Stu, is I wish I was 25 years old again, right now, because for young entrepreneurs, and young tech folks, this is probably one of the most exciting times, because you have real computer science, and dormant computer science, now re-energized with cloud computing scale. It's just like-- >> John, they don't appreciate what they had, you know. They don't know what it was like to have a computer that wasn't actually connected to things, let alone what we had. >> I used to build my own graphics libraries, I used to walk to school in bare feet in the snow. It's so hard. It's so easy now. >> Creating ones and zeroes-- >> Where's my token ring? >> Creating ones and zeroes by banging rocks together. >> It's so easy now. You guys got it made. You have no idea. Great stuff, Stu, this is great analysis, and I think, again, KubeCon is the beginning, with Cloud Native, this is just a small signal, I think. I think there's going to be a COMDEX moment soon, unless this thing just blows up, which I don't think is going to happen. >> I mean, look, last thing, John, I want to big thank to the Linux Foundation, CNCF, for working with us. We've been neighbors in the early days, great partnership, this community. They've got a great media section. All of friends over here, that are creating a lot of con, working really hard. The amount of work that goes through, and as we had the people from CNCF talking. They've got a core team, but it's people that volunteer, and we were a community too, and all our sponsors, John. >> Yeah, thanks to the community, and again, one more final point is that, this market, Justin, as you know, we all cover it, is in a learning mode. There's a lot of education oriented stuff that people are interested in. You've got Alex Williams over at New Stack, DevOps.com, TFiR over there, everyone's up in media out there. There is a thirst for content, there's a thirst for community learning. The sessions are packed. I mean, the hallways are interesting. You see people huddling, and I overhear the conversations. They're not talking about what party to go to, they're talking about how to implement a Kubernetes cluster, so this, really people working on and off the court here, so to speak. So, it's been great coverage. So, day three, breaking it down. I'm John Furrier, Justin Warren, Stu Miniman, back with more coverage, day three, after the short break. (techno music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's 'theCUBE' Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018, brought to you by 'redhat' The CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to live CUBE coverage here at Seattle for KubeCon, CloudNativeCon2018. I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action here for CloudNative, trend, a lot of ecosystem partners, a lot of new developers, a lot of great open-source action in the cubes here covering it. We've been there from the beginning, our next guest and user, Max Schulze, Advisor and Founder of NBF, welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank-you, thank-you for having me. >> So tell me about what you're working on. You are doing something pretty compelling with Kubernetes and CloudNative, take a minute to explain what you do. >> Yeah actually, we are advising a very large energy utility in the Nordics and what we're trying to do with Openshift and Kubernetes is actually to shift loads between different data centers based on power availability. So if you have wind and solar power, you know that you only get energy when the wind is blowing so you really need to be able to match that load of the data center with the actually energy production which is quite challenging to be honest. >> Max you have different take on 'Follow-the-sun' that we used to talk about in IT I'm guessing, yes? >> Yes >> Take us inside a little bit, the sustainability is really interesting and how some of the power, you know, usage and heat and everything and maybe you can explain that a little bit before we get into the data. >> Of course, so generally how we got to a sustainable data center source was that in the Nordics you see a big growth of data centers in general so all the hyperscalers: Google, Microsoft, AWS. They are all coming to build data centers in Nordics. It's cold, power is cheap, you have lots of renewable energy available and we started to think 'Okay, but they have two problems essentially.' They generate a lot of heat, which is just emitted into the atmosphere so it's wasted, and the second problem is that they want 100% reliable power and reliable power you only get from nuclear, you get from gas, coal fire power plants not from renewables. So we looked into this, and we started to think about okay can we maybe get the heat out? Can we extract the heat from a data center and inject it into district heating grids and actually heat homes? With a hyperscale data center from Microsoft, 300 megawatts you can heat about 150,000 homes, that's quite significant. >> Yeah and how are you doing that? I mean I talked to a company once that was like 'Oh well we're going to, you know, we'll just distribute the servers different places and there will be ambient heat off of it.' But you're extracting the heat and sharing it. Explain that a little bit more. >> So most existing data center projects, they extract the heat out of the air but that's really inefficient. You get to about 100 degrees Fahrenheit which is not uh high quality heat. So what we want is 140 degrees Fahrenheit, about 60 degrees celsius, which means that we have to use liquid. So we have to use water in this case and we use a cooling system that is quite ironic from a start up in Germany called Cloud & Heat that uses hot water to cool servers. So the water really flows at a very very high speed through the data center and on it's way picks up a very low amount of temperature and we get out the temperature, we get out the water at 140 degrees Fahrenheit and we put it in at 120 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's quite, not a big difference, but it flows at a very high speed. >> So it makes it work? Makes the numbers work. >> Exactly. And so what's the home count again you mentioned one hyperscale data center, like a Microsoft data center powers heat for how many homes? >> About 150,000 homes from 300 megawatts worth of data center. >> And you guys put this into a grid so that's, does the location of the homes need to be nearby, is there a co-location kind of map or? >> Yeah actually, in order to do this we have to move data centers closer to cities. But luckily, data centers actually want to be closer to cities because your closer to peering points and one of the reasons why they usually can't come closer to cities is because power is not available near a city. So we um try, we can give them both. Right, they can come closer to the city and we can give them power, and we get the heat in return. So, so everybody wins. >> Yeah so I mean, a lot of the discussion we've had is the interaction between software and my data center infrastructure. You've got a story of software, with you know, actual like city underneath the infrastructure. Maybe you got to help explain how that was built out, what tools you're using and walk us through this all. >> So we originally started with Openstack, which was the first test because we need, in order to do this heat extraction we need to also steer really the software, the workloads that run on the data center because you know a chip only gets hot when the server actually does something so we really had to figure this out. We started with Openstack and then we started looking into load shifting which immediately brought us to Kubernetes and then Openshift because you can use the internal scheduler to basically force loads across different locations. We connect it to our energy systems, to our forecasting systems and to our heat load management systems and then basically push workloads around. Right now we have two sites where we test this and it's not as easy as it sounds. And we basically want to move workloads, concentrate them where we want, we have heat. So um yeah, Redhat is helping us a lot doing this but still it's not that easy. >> Yeah yeah, it's interesting. You know, I think back you know, virtualization was about you know, how can we drive some utilization and get some out? You really want to you know, concentrate and run things hot. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Quite inter- Alright tell us about your involvement in this ecosystem, you know, what brings you to the show this week, what do you get out of coming to a show like this? >> Yeah, actually I came because Redhat invited us to talk at the Openshift gathering at the beginning of the conference. And generally, we don't really have a commercial interest in making data centers or data infrastructure sustainable, we, we don't gain anything from that, but we believe it's necessary. If you look at the growth curve of data centers you can really see that they will consume more and more power, and then the power they consume is not compatible with renewable energy. So we are hoping that we can influence people and we come here to tell people our story and we actually get great feedback from most of the nerds. >> Well it's a great story. It's one of those things where you're starting to see data centers trying to solve these problems. It's great with the renewable energy, having that kind of success story is really huge. Um, You mentioned that data centers want to be close to cities. I got to ask the question, in Europe, well you've lived around a lot of places. Is there a more cloud city oriented, like is it London, you got Paris, you got... I know Amazon's got data centers in Ireland. Is there certain cities that are more CloudNative culture? How would you break down the affinity towards CloudNative? If you had to map Europe, which major countries and cities would you think are advanced, cloud thinking vs. tire kickers or you know, people just kind of just trying it? >> In Europe there is a region called the FLAP region, that's Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam and Paris. Those are where you have the highest concentration of data centers, but it terms of CloudNative adoption, I would say that probably in the UK you have the most adoption rates and in the Netherlands. Germany is always, I am German so I can say this, we are always a bit behind in terms of cloud technology because we're a bit scared and we don't know- >> You'll watch everyone test it out and then you guys will make it go faster. (john laughs) >> Maybe, maybe, maybe a bit more efficient but uh, generally I think the cloud adoption rate in Germany is the lowest and the UK and the Netherlands is the highest I would say, yeah. >> Awesome, well thanks so much. Congratulations on your success, we'll keep following you and when we're in Europe we're going to come by and say hello. Thanks for coming and sharing the stories. The CUBE, breaking down all the action at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. I'm John with Stu Miniman. Day 2, we got three days of wall to wall coverage. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's Ecosystem Partners. >> Well, everyone welcome back to theCube's live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Three days of coverage around the Cloud Native growth, around the Ecosystem around open source, and the role of micro servers in the cloud. Our next guest is Roland Barcia who's the IBM Distinguished Engineer for IBM's Hybrid Cloud. Welcome to theCube. >> Thank you, glad to be here. >> Thanks for joining us. Being a Distinguished Engineer of IBM is a pretty big honor so congratulations. >> Thank you. >> it means you got technical chops so we can get down and dirty if we want to. >> Sure. >> I want to get your take on this because a lot of companies in IT are transforming and then that's been called digital transformation, it's happening and cloud has developed scale. And the wish list if you had the magic wand that could make things do better is actually happening. Supernetting's actually creating some goodness that if you had the magic wand, if I asked that question three years ago, if you had a magic wand what would an environment look like? Seamless operations around the cloud, so it's kind of happening. How are you guys positioned for this? Talk about the IBM cloud, what you're doing here, and how you see this cloud native market exploding. It's almost 8,000 people here up from 4,000 last year. >> Yeah, that's a great question I think. I work a lot with our enterprise clients. I'm part of what's called the IBM Cloud Garage, so I'm very customer facing. And often times, we're seeing that there is different paces of a journey. And so for example, I worked with a client that started building a cloud native application. They built about 60 micro services. And at the end of that, they were deploying it as one job which means they defeated the whole purpose of micro service architecture. And so what we really need to think about is an end to end journey. I think the developers are probably the more modern role in an enterprise, but we're starting to see modernization of an operations team for example, and adopting culture, and cutting down the walls of IT organizational groups into mixed squads, adopting something like a Spotify model. And I think a lot of the challenges in adopting kubernetes is really in cultural aspects and in enterprise. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. And because network guys are different than the app guys, and now they have policy knobs on kubernetes they can play with. Network guys love policy. >> Yeah, and they're fighting over ownership, right? >> Roland indeed. We look at that modernization, the application modernization really is that long home intent. And what we hear here is you need to be able to meet customers where they are. Sure, there's some stuff they're building shiny and new and have the developers, but enterprises have a lot of application and therefore there's a grand spectrum. What do you hear from customers? What's the easy part and where's the parts they're getting stuck? >> Yeah, so I think the easy part is writing the application. I think where they're getting stuck is really scaling it to the enterprise, doing the operations, doing the DevOps. I always tell people that a modernization journey might be better started by taking a certain class of applications like middleware where we have a WebSphere heritage from IBM, and saying why don't we take a look at containerizing that. We've built tools like Transformation Advisor that'll scan your WebSphere applications and tell you what do you need to change in that middleware application to make it behave well in a containerized platform. Then from there, you build your DevOps engine, your DevOps pipeline and you really start to get your operations teams going in delivering containers, delivering applications as containers. And then getting your policies and your standards in place. Then you can start opening up around innovation and start really driving towards building cloud native new applications in addition to that. >> One of those areas we've been talking about in the industry for decades is automation. The conversation's a little bit different these days. Maybe you can bring us up to speed about what's different than say it was earlier days. >> Yeah, I think IT organizations have always done a bit of automation. I think they write scripts, they automate builds. I think the mantra that I use is automate everything, right? Organizations need to really start to automate in a new way. How I deliver containers, but delivering the app is not enough. I need to automate all levels of testing in a modern way. Test driven development is big. At the IBM Cloud Garage, we have something we call the IBM Cloud Garage Method which really takes a set of practices like test driven development, pair programming, things out of lean startup, extreme programming, and really start to help enterprises adopt those practices. So I say why can't we automate end to end performance testing in the pipeline, and functional testing, and writing them early and in the beginning of projects? That way, as I'm deploying containers which are very dynamic, along with configuration, and along with policy you're testing it continuously. And I think that level of automation is what we need to get to. >> Talk about security as well 'cause security's one of those things where it's got to be baked in upfront. You got to think about it holistically. It's also now being pulled out of IT, it's more of a board function because the risk management is one hack you could get crushed. And so you got to have security. And the container there's a security boundary issue, so it's important. >> Last week we met with an insurance company. We did a workshop. And they walked us through all the compliant steps that they need to go through today. How they do it with traditional middleware and virtual machines and hardware and it was a very, what I'm going to say governance driven process. And so a lot of checks and balances, stop don't move forward, which is really the industry for developing and innovating is going the opposite way: self service and enabling. And there's a lot of risk with that. And so what we're really trying to do with technology is like Multicloud Manager, technology we have around multicluster, management is how do I do things like I want to check which clusters are Hipaa compliant and which ones are out. How do i force that policy? >> That's smart. >> Now that everything is software driven, software developed, there's an opportunity to really automate those checks. >> So your point automate everything. >> Yeah, I want to automate everything. >> Governance is a service. (laughing) >> Yeah, that's right. And actually, that can help get away from error prone human checks where they had all these tons of documents of all different policies they have to go through can now be automated in a seamless way. >> So compliance and governance could be a stumbling block or it can be just part of the software. That's what you're getting at here. >> That's right, that's what I'm getting at. I think the transition is look at it as an opportunity now that everything is software driven, use software disciplines that developers are used to in those security roles and those CSO roles, etc. >> So I want to ask you a question. So one of the things we're seeing obviously with the cloud is it's great for certain things, and then on premises it has latency issues. We saw Amazon essentially endorse this by saying RDS on VMware on premises. They announced Outpost had reinvent oh, latency. Things aren't moving into the cloud as fast. So you're going to see this hybrid environment. So hybrids, we get that, it's been around, check. No real discussion other than it's happening. The real trend is multicloud, right? >> That' right. >> And so multicloud is just a modern version of the word multi vendor about the client server days. So systems were a multi vendor man choice. This is a fundamental thing. It's not so much about multicloud as it is about choice. How do you guys see that? You are in an environment where you have a lot of customers who don't have one cloud, so this is a big upcoming trend in 2019. >> Most of our clients have at least five different clouds that they deal with, whether it be an IaaS, a PaaS, a SaaS base solution. What we're seeing as a trend is we talked about on premise and private and enterprise is I think is 80% of workloads are still in the data center. And so they want to build that private cloud environment as a transitionary point to public, but what we're seeing across the multicloud space is I'm going to say a new integration space. So if you really think 15 years ago, SOA and enterprise service bosses in a very centralized fashion, I think there's a new opportunity for integration across clouds and on-prem in a more decentralized way. So I think integration is kind of the next trend that we're seeing in this multicloud space because the new applications that we're seeing with cognitive data AI are mixing data sources from multiple clouds and on-prem and needing to control that in a hybrid control plane is key. >> It's funny, the industry always talks about these buzzwords, multicloud. If we're talkin' about multicloud, then it's a problem. The idea of infrastructure as code it's not even use the word multicloud. I mean, if you think about it, if you're programming the infrastructure and enabling the stuff under the covers, why even talk about cloud? It should be automated, so that's the future state, but in reality, that's kind of what enterprisers are tryin' to think about. >> They are, and I think it's a tension between innovation and moving fast and control, right? The enterprisers want to move fast, but they want to make sure that they don't break security protocol, that they don't break resiliency that they're maybe have used to with their existing customers and applications. I do think the challenge is how operations teams and management teams start to act like developers to get to that point. And I think that's part of the journey. >> Open source obviously a big part of this show, and that's open source, people contribute upstream It's great stuff. IBM is a big contributor, and it'll be even more when Red Hat gets into the mix. So upstream's great, but as you got 8,000 people here, you're startin' to see people talkin' about business issues, and other things. One of the downstream impacts of this conference being so open source centric is the IT equation and then just the classic developer. So you have multiple personas now kind of interacting. You got the developer, you got the IT architect, cloud architect pro whatever, and then you got the open source community members. Melting pot: good, challenges, thoughts? >> So I think it's so developers love that, right? I think from an enterprise perspective, there are issues. We're seeing a lot of our clients with our private cloud platform ask us to build out what's called air gapped environment which is how do I build up an open source style ecosystem within my enterprise. So things like getting an artifactory registry or a Docker registry or whatever type of registry where I get certified, open source packages in my enterprise that I've gone and done security vulnerability scans with, or that I've made sure that I look at every layer from the Linux kernel all the way up to whatever software is included. So what we're seeing is how do I open the aperture a bit, but do it in a more responsible fashion I think is the key. >> Yeah, and that's for stability, right? So Stu, one of things I've been talkin' about and want to get your thoughts on this role is that you got the cloud as a scalable system then one of the things that's being discussed in Silicon Valley now for the first time, we've been sitting on theCube for years, is the cloud's a system. It's just some architecture, it's network distributing, computing, art paradigm, all that computer science has been around for awhile, right? >> Yes, yes. >> So if you've been a systems person whether hardware or whatever, operating systems, you get cloud. But also you got the horizontal specialism of applications that are using machine learning and data and applications which is unique on top. So you have the collision of those two worlds. This is kind of a modern version of two worlds that we used to call systems and apps, but they're happening in a real dynamic way. What's your thoughts on this? Because you got the benefits of horizontally scalable cloud and you now have the ability to power that so we're seeing things like AI, which has been around for a long, long time, have a renaissance because now you got a lot of compute. >> That's right, and I think data is the real big challenge we're seeing with a lot of our clients. They have a lot of it in their enterprise, they don't want to unlock it all right away. We recently did what's called IBM Cloud Private for Data, in which we brought in a set of technologies around our AI, our Watson core to really start leveraging some of those tools in a private manner. And then what we're seeing is a lot of applications that are moving to the cloud have a data drag. It might start as something as simple as caching data and no SQL databases, but very quickly they want to learn a lot more about that data. So we're seeing that mix happening all the time. >> We've had it, we've had someone say in theCube ML's the new SQL. >> Yeah. >> Because you're starting to see SQL abstraction layers are a beautiful thing if they're connected. So I want to get your thoughts on this because everyone's kind of in discovery mode right now. Learning, there's a lot of education. I mean, we're talkin' about real, big time players. Architects are becoming cloud architects. Sysadmins are becoming operators for large infrastructure scale. You see network guys goin' wait a minute, if I don't get on the new network programmable model I'm going to be irrelevant. So a lot of persona changes in the enterprise. How are you guys handling that with customers? I know you guys have the expert program. Comment on that dynamic. >> I think what we're doing is we use the IBM Cloud Garage to bring in practices like the Spotify method where we start pushing things like >> What's the Spotify method? >> Spotify method is a way of doing kind of development where rather than having your disciplines of architects, development, operations, we're now splitting teams, let's say functionally, where I have mixed disciplines in a squad and maybe saying hey, the person building the account team has an SRE, an ops guy, a dev guy all within their same squad. And then maybe have guilds across disciplines, right? And so what we do at the Garage is we bring 'em in to one of the Garages. We have four team locations worldwide. Maybe do your first project. Then we build enablement and education around that, bring it back to the enterprise and start making that viral. And that's what we're doing in the IBM Cloud Garage. >> So not a monolithic thing, breakin' it down, integrating multiple disciplines, kind of like a playlist. >> Yeah, that's right. And I think the best way to do it is to practice it, right, in action. Let's pick a project rather than talking about it. >> If I had to ask you in 2019, what is the IT investment going to look like with kubernetes impact? How does kubernetes change the IT priorities and investments for an enterprise? >> Yeah, so I think you'll see kubernetes become a vehicle for enterprises to deliver content. So one, the whole area around helm and other package managers as a way to bundle software. I think as people build more clusters, multicluster management is going to be the big trend of how do I deal now with clusters that I have in public cloud and private cloud, all different clouds? And I think that integration layer that I talked about where what does modern integration look like across kubernetes based applications. >> Someone asked me last week at Reinvent hey, can't we just automate kubernetes? And then I was like, well it's kind of automated now. What's your thoughts on that? >> So I think when someone asks a question what does it mean to automate that I think the kubernetes stack really sits on top of IaaS infrastructure. And so for example, our IBM Cloud Private you can run it on zLinux or Power. And we have a lot of IBM folks that run multi architecture clusters. And therefore, they still need a level of automating how I create clusters over IaaS and there's technologies like Terraform and others that help with that, but then there's also automating standing up the DevOps stack, automating deployment of the applications over that stack. And I think they mean automating how I use kubernetes in an environment. >> So 2019, the year of programmability and automation creating goodness around kubernetes. >> Yeah, absolutely, >> Roland, thanks for comin' >> Thank you, it was great. >> on theCube, thanks for that smart insight. TheCube coverage here, day two winding down. We got day three tomorrow. This is theCube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. We'll be right back with more day two coverage after this short break. (happy electronic music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's the CUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live with CUBE coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman your hosts all week, three days of coverage. We're in day two. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000, spanning to China, in Europe, everywhere, the CNCF is expanding. The Linux Foundation, and the ecosystems expanding, we're here with Dan Kohn who's the executive director of the CNCF. Dan, great to see you. I know you work hard. (laughs) I see you out in China. You've done the work. You guys and the team have taken this hockey stick as it's described on the Twittersphere, really up and to the right, you've doubled, it's almost like Moore's law for attendance. (laughs) Doubling every six months. It's really a testament of how it's structured, how you guys are managing it, the balances that you go through. So congratulations. >> So thank you very much, and I'm thrilled that you guys have been with us through that whole ride, that we met here in Seattle two years ago at the first KubeCon we ran with 1,000 attendees. And here we are eight times higher two years later. But I absolutely do need to say it is the community that's growing, and we try and organize them a little bit and harness some of that excitement and energy and then there is a ton of logistics and effort that it takes to go from 28 members to 349 and to put on an event like this, but we do have an amazing team at the Linux Foundation and this is absolutely an all hands on deck where the entire events team is out here and working really hard. >> You guys are smart, you know what you're doing, and you have the right tone and posture, but you set it up right, so it's end user driven, it's open-source community as the core of the event, and you're seeing end users that have contributed, they're now consuming, you have vendors coming in, but you set the nice playbook up, and the downstream benefits of that open-source core has impacted IT, developers, average developers, and this is the magic. And you guys don't take too many hard stands on things, you take a good enough stand on the enablement piece of it. This is a critical piece. Explain the rationale because I think this is a success formula. You don't go too far and say, here's the CNCF stack. >> Right. >> You pull back a little bit on that and let the ecosystem enable it. Talk about that rationale because I think this is an important point. >> Sure and I would say that one of the huge advantages that CNCF has had is that we came later after a lot of other projects. So our parent, the Linux Foundation, has been around for 15 years. We've been able to leverage all of their expertise. We've looked at some of the mistakes that OpenStack, and Apache, and IETF, and other giants who came before us did, and our aspiration has always been to make entirely new mistakes rather than to replicate the old ones. But as you mentioned end user is a key focus, so when you look at our community, how CNCF is set up, we have a governing board that's mainly vendors, it does have developer and other reps on it. We have our technical oversight committee of these nine experts, kind of like our supreme court, and then we have this end user community that is feeding requirements and feedback back to the other group. >> I want to ask you about the structure, and I think this is important because you guys have a great governance model, but you have this concept of graduation. You have Kubernetes, and it's really solid, people are very happy with it, and there's always debates in open-source as you know, but there's a concept of graduating. Anyone can have projects, and explain that dynamic. 'Cause that's, I've heard people say, oh that's part of the CNCF, and well it hasn't graduated, but it's a project. It's important as a laddering there, explain that concept. I think this is important for people to understand that you're open, but there's kind of a model of graduation. What does it mean? >> Sure and it, people have said, oh you mean they've graduated, so they've left now, right? Like the kids leaving the home. And it's definitely not that model. Kubernetes is still very much part of CNCF. We're happy to do it. But we think that one of CNCF's functions is as a signaling and a marketing to enterprise users. And we like the cliche of crossing the chasm where we talk about 2018 was really the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm. Went from as early adopters who'd been using it for years and were thrilled with it but they actually jump over now to the early majority. I will say though that the late majority, the laggards, the skeptics, they're not using these technologies yet. We still have a ton of opportunity for years to come on that. So we say the graduated projects, which today is not just Kubernetes but also Prometheus and Envoy. Those are the ones that are suitable for really any enterprise company, and that they should feel confident these are very mature, serious technologies for companies of all size. The majority of our projects are incubating. Those are great projects, technically capable, companies should absolutely use them if the use case fits, but they're less mature. And then we have this other category of the Sandbox, 11 projects in there, and we say look, these are incredibly promising. If you are technical enough and you have the use cases, you absolutely should consider it, but they are less mature. And then our hope is to help the projects move along that graduation phase. >> And that's how companies start. Bloomberg's plan, I thinking jumping into Sandbox, they'll start getting some code in there that'll attract some people, they get their code, they don't have to come back after the fact and join in. So you have the Sandbox, you've got projects, you've got graduation, so. >> Now Bloomberg's a little bit unusual, and I like them as an example where they have, I don't know if they mentioned this, but almost a philosophy not to spend money on software. And of course that's great. All of our projects are free and open-source, and they're willing to spend money on people, and they hire a spectacular group of engineers, and then they support everything in-house. But in reality, the vast majority of end users are very happy to work with the vendor, including a lot of our members, and pay for some of that support. And so a Bloomberg can be a little bit more adventurous than many, I think. >> Dan, I wonder if you can provide a little bit of context. I hear some people look at really kind of the conformance and certification that the CNCF does. And I think in many ways learn from the mistakes of some of the things we've done in the past because they'll see there's so many companies, it's like, well there's too many distributions. Maybe you could help explain the difference between a distribution-- >> Sure. >> And what's supported and how that makes sense. >> And I think when you look back at, and we just had, CNCF just had our three-year birthday this week, we have a little birthday cake on Twitter and everything. But if you look at all the activities we've been involved in over those three years, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, we have a service provider program, we've done a lot of marketing, helping projects, I think it's the certification and the software conformance is the single thing that we've had done that's had the biggest impact on the community. And the idea here is that we wanted a way for individual companies to be able to make changes to Kubernetes because they all want to, but to still have confidence that you could take the same workload and move it between the different public clouds, between the different enterprise distros or just vanilla Kubernetes that you download or different installers out there. And so the solution was an open-source software conformance project that anyone can download these tasks and run them, and then a process where people upload the test results and say, yes my implementation is still conformant. I've made these changes, but I haven't broken anything. And we really have some amazing cases of our members, some of our biggest members, who had turned off APIs, maybe in their public cloud for good reasons. They said, oh this doesn't apply or we don't, but that's exactly the kind of thing that can cause incompatibility. >> Yeah, I mean that's critically important, and the other thing that is, what I haven't heard, is there's so many projects here. And we go to the Amazon show and it's like, I'm overwhelmed and I don't know what to do, and I can't keep up with everything. I'm actually surprised I don't hear that here because there are pockets, and this is multiple communities, not like a single monolithic community, so you've got, you know Envoy has their own little separate show and Operators has a thing on Friday that they're doing, and there's the Helm community and sometimes I'm putting many of the pieces together, but oftentimes I'm taking just a couple of the pieces. How do you manage this loosely coupled, it's like distributed architecture. >> Loosely coupled is a key phrase. I think the big advantage we have is our anchor tenant of Kubernetes has its own gravitational field. And so from a compatibility standpoint, we have this, excuse me, certification program for Kubernetes and then all of the other projects essentially ensure they're orbiting around and they ensure that they're compatible with Kubernetes, that also ensures they're compatible with each other. Now it's definitely the case that our projects are used beyond just Kubernetes. We were thrilled with Amazon's announcement two weeks ago of commercial support for Envoy and talking about how one of the things they loved about Envoy is that is doesn't just work on Kubernetes, they can use it on their proprietary ECS platform on their regular EC2 environment as well. And that's true for almost all of our projects. Prometheus is used in Mesos, is used in Docker Swarm, is used in VMs, but I do think that having so much traction and momentum around Kubernetes just is a forcing function for the whole community to come together and stay compatible. >> Well you guys did a great job. That happened last year. It's really to me is an example of a historic moment in the computer industry because this is a modern version of enabling technology that's going to enable a lot of value creation, a lot of wealth creation, a lot of customer, and it's all in a new way, so I think you guys really cracked the code on that and continued success. You've obviously had China going gangbusters, you're expanding, China by the way is one of the largest areas we've reported on Siliconangle.com and the CUBE in the past. China has emerged as one of the largest contributors and consumers of open-source given the rise of all the action going on in China. >> And we've been thrilled to see that, and I mean there was just the example yesterday where etcd is now the newest project, the newest incubating project in CNCF, and the co-creator of that and really the lead maintainer for it left CoreOS when it was acquired by Red Hat and is now with Alibaba. And he's originally from China. He is helping Alibaba just who's a platinum member of CNCF, who's been offering a certified Kubernetes service, but they're now looking at how they can move much more of their internal workloads over to it. JD.com has 25,000 servers. That's the second biggest retailer in China. >> It's a constituent. >> I was there six times last year. >> I know you were. >> I ran into you once in a hotel lobby. (laughing) >> What are you doing in China? It's huge, we're here. This is a big dynamic. This is new. I mean this is a big force and function. >> And to have so much energy, and I do also want to really emphasize the two-way street, that it's not just Chinese companies adopting these technologies that started in the US. >> They're contributing. >> We were thrilled a month ago to have Harbor come in as an incubating project and that started in China and is now being used across the world. >> Dan, 2019, you've got three shows again, Barcelona, Shanghai, and San Diego. >> Exactly. >> Of course the numbers are going to be up and to the right, but what else should we be looking for? >> So I think the two, so definitely China, we're going to continue doing it there, we continue to be relations serverless, we're thrilled with the progress of our serverless working group. They have this new cloud event spec, we have all of the different major clouds participating in it. The third area that I think you're going to see us that is somewhat new is looking at telcos. And our vision is that you can take a lot, most networking code today is done in virtual machines called virtual network functions. We think those should evolve to become cloud native network functions. The same networking code running in containers on Kubernetes. And so this is actually going to be our first time with a booth at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona in February. And we're going to be talking about-- >> Makes a lot of sense. IOT, over the top, a lot of enablement there. Makes inefficiencies in that inefficient stacks. >> Yeah, and on the edge as well. >> Dan, thanks for coming out, I appreciate it. Again, you've done the work, hard work, and continue it, great success, congratulations. I know it's early days still but. >> I hope it is. At some date Kubernetes is going to plateau. But it really doesn't feel like it'll be 2019. >> Yeah, it definitely is not boring. (laughing) Even though we had much more, Dan. >> Dan Kohn, executive director of the CNCF. Here inside the CUBE, breaking it all down, again, another successful show. Just the growth, this is the tsunami, it's a rise of Kubernetes and the ecosystem around it, creating values, the CUBE coverage, live here in Seattle. I'll be back with more coverage after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and the Antigo System Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone live here in Seattle for the theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloundNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Three days of coverage, we're in day two. A lot of action at Open-source. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000 North America, they were in China, they were all over Europe. The community's growing in a massive way. We had two great guests from Red Hat, all making it happen, part of the community. We've got Diane Mueller, whose theCUBE alumni director of community development, many times on theCUBE, good to see you, and Rob Szumski, principal product manager, both at Red Hat. Guys, thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Yeah, glad to be here. - Great to be here. >> So the world's changing a lot, and there was some news recently around Red Hat. I can't remember what it was. Recently, something big news, but you guys have been big players in Open-source for years. We always cover it, we always wax on about the origination of it and how the evolution, but the CloudNative piece has gotten so real, and your role in it particularly, we've had many conversations, going maybe back to the OpenStack days of how OpenShift was developing, then the bet on Kubernetes that you made, Core OS acquisition, those two things I think, to me, at least from my perspective, really catalyzed a lot of things at the right time, right? So, from there, just a lot of things has just been happening really in a good way. Big tail wind for you guys, CloudNative app developers are using Open-source, CI/CD pipeline, and then also policy based up under the hood, completely big shift in moving the game down the field. So big congratulations first of all. But what's new? What's the update? >> The update is Operators. I think the next big thing that we are really focusing on, and that's a game changer for all the second day operations type things, and we'll make Rob talk about it in detail, is the rise of Kubernetes' Operators. It's not a scary thing, it's not like terminator day, or anything like that, but it is really the thing that helps us make the service catalogs, the Kubernetes marketplaces really accessible to all of the data bases as a service, and all of the other things, and takes out some of the complexity of delivering applications and database  as a Service to anybody running Kubernetes anywhere. >> Take a minute to explain Operator, real quick, and then we can jump into it, because I think this is a fundamental trend, that we're seeing. Developer trend is pretty obvious, it's been that word for awhile, CloudScale, ML, machine learning, and all the goodness around application development, but the Operator side of it has been an IT thing. But now you guys have a different, a new approach that's winning. What is it? What is Operator? >> Well, it's Kubernetes that has the approach, and I'll let you-- >> Yeah, so it's basically like the rise of containers was great, because you could take a single container and package an application and give to somebody, and know that they can run it successfully. And Operator does that for a distributed system in the exact same way. So you're using all the Kubernetes primitives, so you're not reinventing service discovery, and seeker management, and all that. And you can give somebody an entire Kafka stack, or a machine learning stack, or whatever it is, these very complex distributed systems, and have them run it without having to be an expert. They need to know Kafka at a high level, but not exactly all the underpinnings of it, because that's all baked in the software. >> And the benefit and the impact of the organization is what? >> And just to clarify, so this was added in, I believe Kubernetes is like 1.7, it's something that's in there, it's not something Red Hat specific- >> Yeah, it's like-- >> So you're extending Kubernetes so that you have a custom resource definition, which is an extensible mechanism for saying, hey, I've got a deployment or a staple set, but what if I want to have a new object called a MongoDB? That knows how to deploy, and manage, and upgrade MongoDB. So that's the extension mechanism that we're using. >> Yeah, so you got to think, there's certain applications that this is going to make, just a lot easier how I manage them, deploy them, things like that. Any specific examples you want to share as to-- >> All the clustered data bases. >> There's a lot of the application side in this model have been very excited about this. >> So its all the vendors and partners that want a hybrid Cloud story, just targeting Kubernetes, and we're using Kubernetes under the hood, and then everybody wants to run like a staple data base tier, whether that's Mongo and Couchbase, and Cassandra, whatever. And these are all distributed systems. >> Alright, so I want you to just perch, you said a hybrid Cloud. Explain that model, because there's just something in general discussion that is hybrid or multi means I'm running multiple places, I'm not necessarily stretching an application, but I have instances there, just want to make sure we're on the same page. >> So this would be more the compatibility that you're programming against when you're building an operator, is Kubernetes. It's not a Cloud offering, it's not OpenShift, so you're just targeting Kubernetes, and so you can run MongoDB on prem, in the Cloud, and have it function the exact same, by standing up one of these Operators. And then if that Operator has higher level constructs for how to do multi-cluster aware data rebalancing, you can take advantage of that too. >> And the Open-source status of this product is what? >> It's all Open-source, it's all in the github repos, there's a Google group for Operator framework, that anyone can come and participate in. We hold SIG meetings on the third Friday of every month, 9 a.m. Pacific Time, and it's a completely Open-source project. There's a whole framework around it, so there's the Operator SDK, the Operator Lifecycle Management, and Operator metering, all the tooling there to help people build and manage these Operators, and it's all being built out there in the open with the community's support and feedback loops. >> What's the feedback? What's the top feedback you guys are getting right now? Seeing right now? >> I have to say, this is really, like I've been hanging out with you guys like for the past three, four months on this topic, trying to get my head around it and everything, and we came here and we had two sessions, an intro session and a deep dive session, intro yesterday, deep dive today. Today's deep dive, the room was about 250 people, and they're were people outside of it-- >> Security guards blocking people from coming in. >> Nobody could come in and it's like, it's insane. It's like, everybody needs these things, and everybody wants to figure out that, and when you ask people in the room whose building one, half the room raises their hands. It's just crazy. This thing crept up on us really, maybe not on Core OS, okay, it crept up on me very quickly, and it's very rapid adoption. We have a Kubernetes Operators workshop on Friday, so not only do we have pre-conference days of like OpenShift Cons that are huge now, but now we're starting to book end, CNCF events and put on other things, just because, and that, we had 100 seats that we were hoping we would fill, and it sold out in like minutes once it got in there, and there's a waiting list of like 300 people. It is like one of, aside from Knative, and all the other wonderful hot things too, it is one of the most interesting developments I think right now. >> Thirst for the content. Would it impact? >> Yeah, and you can get all of the documentation is out there now, and people are already building them. We have a list of 50 community Operators. It's just, it's phenomenal how quickly it's growing. >> You know, Diane and Rob, it's funny because you know, we do so many of these theCUBE interviews, and this is our 10th year doing theCUBE coming up, and I remember the conversations going back in the OpenStack days, we would ask questions like, if you had a magic wand, what would you like, hope to have happened, right? And you know, those are parts of the evolution, where it's like, it's aspirational, things are being built. It seems now with Kubernetes, it's almost like, wait a minute, it's actually, this is like the goodness is so compelling, above and below Kubernetes that it's almost like uncomprehendible. You think about, oh this is actually happening. Finally the kinds of steady state kind of operational things that have been a pain in the butt for years-- >> Yeah, the toil, it's gone, for the most part. >> Yeah. >> So Rob, I've been having a lot of just thinking back to, you're employee number two at Core OS, when I first talked to Core OS, it was, we're going to build all of these individual tools, and we're going to Open-source them, and it's going to be good. We watched this just rising ecosystem and the CNCF, and it feels like what's nice and what's different that I see, compared to some previous things, is it's not one product or even a small group of companies. It's, I have this tool kit, and some of them work together, but many of them are independently used. We've talked to your peers earlier about it, etCD. etCD is totally stand alone, doesn't need to be Kubernetes. What have you seen, if you go back to that original vision, would Core OS just been, part of this whole ecosystem, and done it, if this was available, and has this delivering on a promise that your team had hoped to work on? >> Yeah, so we've always filled in where we see gaps, and so something like etCD, the concept is not new, and it comes from Google, and they have a system internally, and as Brandon got up on stage and said, we needed that coordinate, reboot, to grow out, to cluster of machines. It didn't exist so we had to build it. Same thing with how we wanted to manage Linux. There was no distro that even resembled what we were doing. Wanted to do automatic upgrades, people thought that was crazy, so we had to go build it. And so, but we always adopted the best of breed technology, when it existed. In our early bet Kubernetes, we just saw, this is the thing, and went for it. I don't even remember what version, but it was months and months before it was zero point oh, or one point oh, so it was, we've been doing it forever. And you just see the right thing, and it's the little nugget that you need, and if you don't see it, then you build it. >> What are you surprised about Rob, in terms of the ecosystem now, you mentioned some goodness is happening, still a lot more to do, visibility around value creation, you're starting to see spots where value can be created in the ecosystem, which is great. Still more work areas, but what's surprising you? What do you see as opportunities, challenges? Your thoughts, because this vision of ease of use and programmability, is happening, right? So there's still more work to do. What's your vision there? What's your thoughts? >> I mean, I think self service is key, so this is like the rise of the Cloud comes from self service for developers, and Kubernetes gives you the right abstraction, where self service for VM's, like OpenStack, which is not quite at the level of what you want. You don't want a VM, you actually wanted a place to deploy an application, you wanted load balancing, you wanted service discovery, you didn't want like a bare Ubuntu VM, and so Kubernetes raises you up to where you're productive, and then it's about building stuff on top. But what's interesting, in the space is, we're still kind of competing on Kubernetes installers, and stuff like that, so we're not even really into like the phase where people are being super productive on the platform, other than these leading companies. So I think we'll democratize that, and we'll have a whole new landscape. >> And so 2019 you see as what being a key theme for Kubernetes? >> I think it'll be Core stuff built on top, like all the serverless frameworks, a bunch of container natives storage solutions, solving some of these problems that folks are reaching out to external machine learning, but bringing that onto the cluster, GPU support, that type of stuff. It's all about the workloads. >> And tradition end users, you have a huge install base, with Red Hat, well documented, as the end users start coming in and looking at CloudNative, and doing a reimagine of their environment, whether it's IT span, IT investments, to have a run their coding and the deployments. It's going to change. 2019's going to have an impact on what I call mainstream enterprise, for lack of a better description. What's the impact of those guys, 'cause now, they now have head room, they can do more, what's the main stream enterprise look like right now with the impact of Kubernetes? >> I think they're going to start deploying applications and get like lower the time to business value, much, much lower. And I was just talking to a customer, and they ordered bare metal machines like a year ago, and they're still not racked and in the data center. And so people are still getting over that type of stuff, but once you have like a shared Kubernetes layer, you can onboard teams like crazy. I mean, name spaces are free, quote, unquote, and you can get 35 engineering teams on a Kubernetes cluster super easy. >> So they can ramp up in development teams basically, as they bring value in-house, versus outsourcing everything. They start getting development teams, this is where the action is. >> I think you're also going to see the rise of those end users contributing back things, to the Kubernetes community and as Lyft, and Uber, and everybody are great examples of that. Uber with Jaeger, and Lyft is, we were just in the Operators thing, and they raised their hand that they are about to Open-source it, a few Operators that they're building and stuff, and you're just going to see people that you didn't normally see. Often these large foundation driven things are vendor driven, but I think what you see here, is the end user community is now embracing the Open-source, is getting the legal teams there, allowing them to share their things, because one, they get more people to maintain them, and more people working on them, but it's really I think the rise of the end user we'll see, as they start participating more and more in here. And that's the promise of Open-source. >> And that's where CNCF really made it's bones. It wasn't really vendor led per se, it was really end users, the guys building out their stuff for the first time. You see Lyft for instance, great example, you guys did a Core OS, this is like the new generational model. Final question before we break. I want to get this out there. Get a plug in for Red Hat. What are you guys, what's the focus for the show? What's the news? What's the big story for Red Hat here at KubeCon this year? >> I think it's Operators, that's what we're here talking about. It's a really big push to once again get smarter workloads onto the cluster. We've got a really great hybrid story, we've got a really great over the air upgrade story that we're bringing from some of the Core OS technology, and then the next thing is, once it's easy to run 35 clusters, we need a bunch of workloads to put on there. And so we want to save folks from the toil of running all those workloads as well, just like we did at the cluster level. >> Awesome. >> Well put. I couldn't add more. One of the things that Core OS did, you hit the nail on the head earlier, is when there was something missing, they helped us build it, and with the Operator SDK, and the Lifecycle Management, and the metering, and whatever else the tooling is, they have really been inspirational inside of Red Hat. And so they filled a number of gaps, and it's just been all Operators all the time right now. >> It's great when a plan comes together. You guys got a great tail wind. Congratulations on all the success, and it's just the beginning of the wave. It's theCUBE, covering the wave of innovation here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018, we'll be back with more live coverage. Day two of Three days of Kube Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle,Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon andCloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone,live Cube coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman hosting three days of coverage. Wall to wall, 8,000 people,double from last year, North America, expanding intoChina, Europe, everywhere. The CNCF is expanding, so is Kubernetes. The rise of Kubernetes has spawned the Cloud Native movement going mainstream that's ecosystem driven. We got a great guest here. Steven Bower, data andanalytics infrastructure lead at Bloomberg, featuredthem on siliconangle.com in one of our special reportsand user using Kubernetes and the variety of Cloud Native. Steven welcome to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> Thanks for coming on,award winning end user, given all the end users,everyone's kind of award winning. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Congratulations. Bloomberg's known, we've covered you guys, great development team. You guys have a lot ofengineers at Bloomberg as well as being a media company on cable, Bloomberg terminal, everything else. You've got a lot of datascience, you've got a lot of engineers, you're building stuff. What's the focus on Kubernetes? Where are you using it? How are you contributing? What's the dynamic? Why are you winning with Kubernetes? >> Sure, that's a good question. I think, well we're usingit all over the place in lots of different things. We have a huge engineeringteam that does all kinds of different things. So in the area that I manage,which is data and analytics infrastructure, we have been we basically managedatabases and search engines and all kinds of other tech like that. What we've ended uprealizing is that we built something that looks a lot like Kubernetes but doesn't work nearlyas well for all of those different systems, tomanage them at scale. You know, we're talkingthousands of instances of post cross and solar andall kinds of different things and having a singletool, or single platform which we can kind of levelup all of those things really makes a lot of sense in terms of not necessarily like cuttingcosts and things like that 'cause that's actuallynot as interesting to me as actually allowing theteams that manage those things to actually contribute to those projects, contribute to solar or postcross and stuff like that and free them from havingto spend a lot of time managing infrastructure. >> Tim Hopkins said, itwas just on theCUBE here before you came on,from Google, one of the co-leads on Kubernetesat gkegoogles@cloud. He said something interesting. I want to get your reaction to this. One of the benefits of Kubernetesis to give the confidence that deployments are going to be reliable and that confidence gets a flywheel and then people startshipping more as a matter of course of the business,not like oh my God we got to push a new code,oh my God, fingers crossed, press the button. The old model was fingers cross, go, QA, no, no, confidence, theconfidence and the iteration. Is that where you'reseeing the value, too? Does that relate to you? Does that make sense to you?Does that resonate with you? >> Yeah, it definitely does. A lot of the models thatwe're trying to move towards are really like declarative model of both how we develop software andthen how we deploy software and then how we manage it in production. Kubernetes offers that, thatecosystem across the board. That's been really, trying to think of a great way to put this. Being able to have that tooland being able to do that and the repeatability. In the world that I livein, everything we do we don't do one of it,we do, I think we run something like 2000 solar clusters. So all we're doing all daylong is just stamping out the same thing over and overagain and if I can build one system that doesthat very, really cleanly and simply and then I canuse that same system for running post tests orrunning something else that gives us the confidenceand we can test it, we can run it on our laptops. Our developers can developand do all that kind of stuff and it works the same everywherethey go and we can just rinse, lather, repeat kind of. >> So Steve, step back for a second. Your infrastructure, is thisall Bloomberg Data Center's? How does cloud fit into the discussion? >> Yeah, I mean, we dohave some infrastructure running in the cloud but primarily it's all on prem and data center. In my world it's all onmetal because we have all these data systemsthat need direct access to SSDs and MME andall this kind of stuff. >> Can you give us, withoutsharing state secrets, a little bit of the scaleof what you're doing? I love data's at the centerof what you're doing there. We can all understand howimportant data is to your business but talk aboutwhat the requirements are that why you have some special requirements that thetypical enterprise wouldn't. >> Sure, I think, youcan look at Bloomberg as a media company, wehave news, all that stuff. We obviously have the Bloomberg terminal and really what drives that terminal, it's all kinds of software but in the end it's data, right, andit's all kinds of data. What is that definition,big data and all these whatever stuff that everyonewas pitching five years ago. We have all of those problems. We have data that is movingat millions of ticks a second. We have enormous data sets. We have really complex data sets like people scanning courtfilings from tiny little courts all around thecountry and sending that data in and we have tonormalize that and put it in. So all these crazy differenttypes of information. They are both demanding interms of the complexities of parsing data and puttingthem and structuring them into those systems as wellas the scale so we have some pretty enormous andhigh performance systems that require us and kindof drive us to that need for metal and very focused on performance in all different aspects. >> Great, wonder, give us your engagement with this ecosystem here. One of the big questionscoming in is okay, Kubernetes, the thingwe here from the CNTF is well, it's getting kind of boring. I don't know that I agree with the term. I understand they'resaying it's becoming mature and therefore there's less drama around it which is good but this ecosystemis anything but boring. You ask a user like yourself, you've got complex requirements. There's more than 30different projects a year. What do you use out of here? What do you build yourself? What do you contribute to? How do you consideropen-source contributions? It's a big nut and wedon't have a ton of time but if you could scratch thesurface on some of those. >> I think the number onelesson that I've learned from this ecosystem isthat it's moving so rapidly that when we decide tobuild something on our own we have a talk tomorrow aboutour data science platform which we built about ayear-and-a-half, two-years ago. By the time we were ready to talk about it and everything like that,you have all the other different technologiesthat have moved forward. So it made us realize thatif we're going to start something internally,a new project, either A we should go look and seewhat's out there and contribute to that or we should juststart it in open source to begin with rather thanthat oh, let's build it and then we'll open source it. >> Chasing your tail kind of thing. >> Yeah, it's like we have tobecome part of the ecosystem in our entirety. >> That brings up a good question. I want to ask you this incontext of thinking about your peers that mightnot be as progressive as Bloomberg on the tech side. You guys certainly do a greatjob and it's well documented. Classic IT shop, racking andstacking servers and boxes and now we got the wholedigital transformation thing going on, same old, same old but now, 2019, real impact. The investments they'remaking on how to change their IT, their data isnow in front of them. They have to deal with them. This is right front andcenter 'cause companies are realizing they'regoing to go out of business if they don't actually make the adoption 'cause the data's super valuable. So how do you see the Kubernetesand the CNC of ecosystem changing the investment practices of a classic enterprise IT? You know, if your peerscalled you and said hey Steven, hey help me out,what's the secret playbook? Where do I go? I don't want to get, Igot to make some changes. What do they change? What's the impact of theinvestment with Kubernetes? What's the end game? What's the real impact? >> I think, it's a toughthing, right, 'cause Bloomberg is really notlike your typical IT shop. We are a software company at heart and so that makes us alittle bit different. When I talk to other people,I say that in the sense that not a lot of companiescan afford to decide to make a project open-- >> 'cause they outsource everything. >> Right, outsource it. Well, I mean-- >> They outsource everything. >> That's actually a huge change though. We're not sitting heretalking about hundreds of commercial products that are owned by a small handful of vendorsthat are multi-million dollar investments foreverything we're doing. We're talking about lotsof little tiny companies that have products thatare really, really valuable that are in the open sourceworld that we can get our hands on and startworking with before we even make a decision about talkingabout support or whatever. There's all kinds of technologies that, I walk into this room andthese are like friends all around 'cause we'veworked with all their software and we're like hey, theseguys have a company now. This was just a GitHubrepo a couple years ago and I think that that's abig change and embracing that, that's probablyreally hard for your typical kind of IT shop where theywant to have this clear line of I can call techsupport and get someone on the phone and that's like the main-- >> The classic old software model but it's changed. >> So Steve, one of thethings we're trying to get some insight on here isit's not just running Kubernetes in production,it's what am I doing with it. How does that change my business? I understand ML is a big pieceof what you're doing there. Give us some insight as to how does this transform your business? Does it transform your business? >> Specifically on the MLside and we'll talk about this actually that's kind of thefocus of our talk tomorrow so I don't want to stealtheir thunder too much but a lot of it was really about looking at okay, how did ML, deep ML people work? How did they want to work? If you ask an ML personwhat they really want they want an infinitely scalable cluster that it's just theirs and they want to an assay to manage all theinfrastructure for them and a data engineer to managecleaning up all the data and all these things and they wanted that all to themselves and not haveto share it with anyone else. So a lot of what we try tofigure out is how we can actually deliver that to themand it really has transformed. Once people realize that onour platform they had access to an enormous pool of GPUs,it went from oh, I want to work on my box and can you giveme GPUs on my one little box to wow, I can dohyper-parameter tuning across hundreds of GPUs overnight or during the day or whatever their needs are. It really unlocked people's capabilities and they're actuallylike, they went from being skeptical of a systemthat they had to share and things like that 'causeit actually just works and that's really the-- >> That's really thedopamine effect for them. They can see value withouthaving to go through the slogging of the configurationsand the normal stuff >> Yeah, exactly.>> that they had to do. >> Authentication. >> So we've been hearingthreads of the CICD pipeline is a big benefit,which you're kind of seeing as well but whatwe're also seeing people building below Kubernetes seeing storage and networking getting better. How do you see that holistically? Are you seeing is thenetwork more performant, that notion of programmabilitybecomes now part of it, automation, it's software. Everyone has to build software. In fact, I talked to theVP of Technology Innovation at Proctor and Gamble andhe's saying hey, we outsourced everything, I got to start hiring software so maybe not as big asBloomberg but the trend is let's get more software people on board but they still got networks,they still got storage, they still got the gear. What's the impact, the under-the-hood? >> Yeah, I think it'scomplex because you typically have these structures thatare built inside companies where you have a networkingteam and you have an infrastructure, ahardware team and whatever. One of the SREs on my team the other day, he was like, do you thinkwe can talk to the network team about puttingsoftware on their switches? That's a really interestingquestion to start asking and he actually had areally good use case. That makes a lot of sense, maybewe should think about that. And then dealing with, there'sobviously the technology aspect of that but there's also skillsets. Someone that's been workingwith a bunch of switches for a bunch of years isn'tnecessarily a programmer, used to a typical CICDprocess and things like that. >> On the flip side, I thinkthat's cool to recognize the networking guy butwe heard Tim Hopkins say there's a lot of policyknobs in Kubernetes that the networking guyscould potentially take advantage of so it mightwork the other way. Are the network guys looking at Kubernetes saying hey, or are theynot yet that sophisticated but they would love, they'd love policy. Network guys write policy. Wouldn't you want-- >> Yeah, yeah, oh absolutely. It's actually one of thebiggest draws of using Kubernetes in our ecosystem. We've made heavy use ofapplying network policy down to the workload level which means that from a securityperspective, if I know that I'm transmittingdata between two different places and I've only openedup assets for that one application, for thatone particular use case, rather than saying well,I know that I'm running the same workload on thesame box and I got to open it up for everyoneon that box but maybe someone might use thatthing but maybe they won't and like worrying about stuff like that, it's like no, I can runa workload and I know that these are the only two end points that it can talk to. >> Oh, that's a relief. That's like, hey, we're done. >> So for them this is their panacea. I know exactly whatworkloads are doing exactly what on the network andwhat they're capable of so that's been-- >> That's real progress. That's progress. >> Oh, it's huge progress, yeah. And we've been able todo things that we used to not be able to do for years. >> Talk about the-- >> I just had a quicklittle question there. You mentioned you've gotten SREs. When did you pick that up asa term that you called there and how do you see if you talk a little bit to the skill set and the jobs of peoplethat you have inside. >> Bloomberg's a big companyso the terminology of it and what actuallyindividual teams are doing is probably a little bitvaried across the organization. It's been something that'scome in over probably the last two to three years at Bloomberg. In my organization, it wasactually really interesting 'cause when I started off with, you know, you read the Google book and whatever. What I did is I wentto the guys on my team that were going to becomethe SREs for the organization and I had them write thismanifesto about how we should build and deploy and managesoftware and I didn't tell them necessarily up front thatthis is what was going to happen but when they finishedwriting that and agreed that this is how thingsshould work and they argued for a while, I said, okay,now go build all the tooling to make this easy forpeople to do, all right. And that's what we, and thenthey've just been building off their tooling. Turns out when you're workingwith a lot of the tools and the CNTF and then with Kubernetes, that's actually not that hard. There's lots of thingsthere that are just easy when you get to that place and so that's the kind of journey we'vebeen on to really try to build that infrastructure andthey've done a good job. The engineers downstream of them the speed that they're able to develop and the assurance that there was a CVE forKubernetes two weeks ago and we patched it theafternoon the CVE came out. Being able to do that in anysort of company of scale is I've worked a lot ofbanking and stuff like that in my past and it's unheard of to be able to deploy things in that speed. >> And that's really, Imean this is the goodness of clouds, the goodnessof having that kind of consistency operationally. It's funny you use SRE,that's a Google term. It's a great term andyou've got developers, you got operations kindof working together now. That's the magic. Well Steven, thank you so much for sharing this great insight on theCUBE. Certainly great valuefor the folks watching. Lot of traction, a lot ofpeople, end users contributing and consuming Kubernetes,building around it. Great trend, it's really fun to watch. A lot of composable servicesup and down the stack so congratulations. Steve Bower, Data andAnalytics Infrastructure Lead at Bloomberg. This is theCUBE bringingyou all the action, sharing the data here at KubeCon. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back withmore after this short break. (electronic music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018, brought to you by Redhat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone, this is theCUBE's live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman breaking down all the action, talking to all the top people, influencers, executives, start-ups, vendors, the foundation itself. We're here with two co-leads of Kubernetes at Google, legends in the Kubernetes industry. Tim Hockin and Brian Grant, both with Google, both co-leads at GKE. Thanks for joining us, legends in the industry. Kubernetes is still a short life, but still, being there from the beginning, you guys were instrumental at Google building out and contributing to this massive tsunami of 8000 people here. Who would have thought? >> It's amazing! >> It's a little overwhelming. >> It's almost like you guys are celebrity-status here inside this crowd. How's that feel? >> It's a little weird. I don't buy into the celebrity culture for technologists. I don't think it works well. >> We agree, but it's great to have you on. Let's get down to it. Kubernetes, certainly the rise of Kubernetes has grown. It's now pretty mainstream, people look at that as a key linchpin for the center of Cloud Native. And we see the growth of Cloud, you guys are living it with Google. What is the importance of Kubernetes? Why is it so important? Fundamentally at it's core, has a lot of impact, what's the fundamental reason why it's so successful? >> I think fundamentally Kubernetes provides a framework for driving migration towards Cloud Native patterns across your entire operational infrastructure. The basic design of Kubernetes is pretty simple and can be applied to automating pretty much anything. We're seeing that here, there are at least more than half a dozen talks about how people are using the Kubernetes to control plane to manage their applications or workflows or functions or things other than just core Kubernetes, containers, for example. Cloud Native is about... One of the things I'm involved with is I'm on the Technical Oversight Committee of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I drove the update of the Cloud Native definition. If you're trying to operate with high velocity, deploying many times a day, if you're trying to operate at scale, especially with containers and functions, scale is increasing and compounding as people break their applications into more and more micro services. Kubernetes really provides the framework for managing that scale and for integrating other infrastructure that needs to accommodate that scale and that pace of change. >> I think Kubernetes speaks to the pain points that users are really having today. Everybody's a software company now, right? And they have to deploy their software, they have to build their software, they have to run their software, and these things, they build up pain. When it was just a little thing, you didn't have to worry about scale, internet-scale and web-scale, you could tolerate it within your organization. But more and more, you need to deploy faster, you need to automate things. You can't afford to have giant staffs of people who are running your applications. These things are all part of Kubernetes purvey. I think it just spoke to people in a way, they said I suffer from that every day and you just made it go away. >> And what's the core impact now? Because then now people are seeing it, what is the impact to the organizations that are rethinking their entire operation from all parts of the staff, from how they buy infrastructure, which is also Cloud, you see some Cloud there, and then that deploying applicant, what's the real impact? >> I think the most obvious, the most important part here is the way it changes how people operate and how they think about how they manage systems. It no longer becomes scary to update your application. It's just a thing you do. If you can do it with high confidence, you're going to do it more often, which means you get features and bugs fixed and you get your roll-outs done quicker. It's amazing, the result that it can have on the user experience. A user reports a bug in the morning, and you fix it in the afternoon, and you don't worry about that. >> You bring up some really interesting points. I think back 10 years ago, from a research standpoint, we were looking at how can the enterprise do some of the things that the hyperscale vendors were doing. I feel over the last 10 years, every time Google released one of the great scientific papers, we'd all get a peer inside and say like, oh hey. When I went to the first DockerCon and heard how Google was using containers, when Kubernetes first came out, it's like, oh wow, maybe the rest of us will get to do something that Google's been doing for the last 10 years. Maybe bring us back a little bit to Borg and how that led to Kubernetes. Are we still all the rest of us just doing whatever Google did 10 years ago? >> Yeah, Tim and I both worked on Borg previously, Tim on the node-agent side and I worked on the control-point side in Borg One lesson we really took from Borg is that really you can run all types of applications. People started with stateless applications and we started with that because it's simpler in Kubernetes. But really it's just a general management control plane for managing applications. With the model of one application per container, then you can manage the applications in a much more first-class way and unlock a lot of opportunities for automation in the management control plane. At Google, several years ago when we started, Google had already gone through the transition of moving most of its applications to Borg. It was after that phase that Google started its Cloud effort and the rest of the world was doing VMs. When Docker emerged, we were... In the early phases, Tim mentioned this in our keynote yesterday of open-sourcing our container runtime. When Docker emerged, it is clear it had a much better user experience for the way folks were managing applications outside of Google and we just pivoted to that immediately. >> When Docker first came out, we took a look at it, we, my node-agent team in Borg, and we went, yeah, it's kind of like poor man's version of Borglet. We sort of ignored it for awhile because we were already working on our open-source effort. We were open-sourcing it, not really to change the world and make everybody use it, but more so that we can have conversations with people like the Linux kernel community. When we said we need this feature, and they'd say well why, why do you need this, we could actually demonstrate for them why we needed it. When Docker landed, we saw the community building, and building, and building. That was a snowball of its own, right? As it caught on, we realized we know what this is going to. We know once you embrace the Docker mindset that you very quickly need something to manage all of your Docker nodes once you get beyond two or three of them. We know how to build that. We got a ton of experience here. We went to our leadership and said, please, this is going to happen with us or without us and I think the world would be better if we helped. >> I think that's an interesting point. You guys had to open-source to do collaboration with Linux to get that flywheel going for you guys out of necessity. Then when Docker validated the community acceptance of hey, we can just use containers, a lot of magic will happen, it hit the second trigger point. What happened after that? You guys just had a debate internally? Is this another MapReduce? What's happening? Like, we should get behind this. I knew there was a big argument or debate, I should say, within Google. At that time there were a lot of conversations, how do we handle this? >> That was around the time that Google Compute Engine, our infrastructures and service platform, was going GA and really starting to get usage. So then we had an opportunity to enable our customers to benefit from the kinds of techniques we had been using internally. So I don't think the debate was whether we should participate, it was more how. For example, should we have a fully managed product, should we have to do open-source, should we do managed open-source, so those were really the three alternatives that we were discussing. >> Well, congratulations, you guys done great work and certainly a huge impact to the industry. I think it's clear that the motivation to have some sort of standardization, de facto standard, whatever word can be used to kind of let people be enabled on top or below Kubernetes is great. I guess the next question is how do you guys envision this going forward as a core? If we're going to go to decomposition with low levels of granularity tying together through the network and cloud-scale and the new operating law, we'll have comments in this, how does the industry maintain the greatness of what Kubernetes is delivering and bring new things to market faster? What's your vision on this? >> I talked a little bit about this this week. We put a ton of work into extension points, extensibility of the system trying to stay very true to the original vision of Kubernetes. It is a box, and Kubernetes fits inside a box, and anything that's outside the box has to stay outside the box. This gives us the opportunity to build new ecosystems. You can see it in networking space, you can see it in storage space where whole sort of cottage industries are now springing up around doing networking for Kubernetes and doing storage for Kubernetes. And that's fantastic! You see projects like Istio, which I'm a big fan of, it's outside of Kubernetes. It works really well with Kubernetes, it's designed on top of Kubernetes infrastructure, but it's not Kubernetes. It's totally removable and you don't need it. There's systems like Knative which are taking the serverless idea and upleveling Kubernetes into serverless space. It's happening all over the place. We're trying to sort of pray fanatically, say, no, we're staying this big and no bigger. >> It's a really... From an engineering standpoint, it's much simpler if I just build a product and build everything into it. All those connection points, I go back to my engineering training. It's like every connection point is going to be another place where it could fail. Now it's got all these APIs, there's all the security issues, and things like that. But what I love what I heard right here is some of the learnings that we've had in open-source is these are all of these individual components that most of them can stand on their own. They don't even have to be with Kubernetes, but altogether you can build lots of different offerings. How do you balance that? How do you look at that from kind of a design and architecture standpoint? >> So one thing I've been looking at is how do we ensure compatibility of workloads across Kubernetes in all different environments and different configurations. How do we ensure that the tools and other systems building an ecosystem work with Kubernetes everywhere? So this is why we created the Conformance Program to certify that the critical APIs that everybody depends on behave the same way. As we try to improve the test coverage of the conformance, people are focusing on these areas of the system that are highly pluggable and extensible. So for example, the kubelet in the node has a pluggable container runtime, pluggable networks, pluggable storage systems now with CSI. So we're really focusing on ensuring we have good coverage of the Pod API, for example. And other parts of the system, people have swapped out an ecosystem, whether it's kube-proxy for our Kubernetes services or the scheduler. So we'll be working through those areas to make sure that they have really good coverage so users can deploy, say, a Helm Chart or their takes on a configuration or whatever, however they manage their applications and have that behave the same way on Kubernetes everywhere. >> I think you guys have done a great job of identifying this enabling concept. What is good enabling technology? Allowing others to do innovation around it. I think that's a nice positioning. What are the new problem areas that you guys see to work on next? Now I see things are developing in the ecosystem. You mentioned the Istio service mesh and people see value in that. Security is certainly a big conversation we've been having this week. What new problem areas or problem sets you guys see emerging that are needed to just tackle and just knock down right away? >> The most obvious, the thing that comes up sort of in every conversation of users now is multi-cluster, multi-cloud, hybrid, whether that's two clouds or on-prem plus cloud or even across different data centers on your premises. It's a hard topic. For a long time Kubernetes was able to sort of put a finger in our ears and pretend it didn't exist while we built out the Kubernetes model. Now we're at a place where we've crossed the adoption chasm. We're into the real adoption now. It's a real problem. It actually exists and we have to deal with it, and so we're now looking at how's it supposed to work. Philosophically, what do we think is supposed to happen here? Technologically, how do we make it happen? How do these pieces fit together? What primitives can we bring into Kubernetes to make these higher level systems possible? >> Would you consider 2019 to be the year of multi-cloud, in terms of the evolution of trying to tackle some of these things from latency? >> Yeah, I'm always reluctant to say the year of something because... >> Someone has to get killed, and someone dies, and someone's winning. >> It's the year of the last desktop. >> It's the year of something. (laughs) EDI, I'm just saying. >> I think multi-cluster is definitely the hot topic right now. It's certainly almost every customer that we talk to through Google and tons of community chatter about how to make this work. >> You've seen companies like NetApp and Cisco, for instance, and how they're been getting a tail-wind from the Kubernetes. It's been interesting. You need networks. They have a lot of networks. They can play a role in it. So it's interesting how it's designed to allow people to put their hands in there without kind of mucking up the main... >> Yeah, I think that really contributes to the success of Kubernetes, the more people that can help add value to Kubernetes, more people have a stake in the success of Kubernetes, both users and vendors, and developers, and contributors. We're all stakeholders in this endeavor now and we all share common goals, I think. >> Well guys, final question for you. I know we got to break on time. Thanks for coming. I really appreciate the time. Talk about an area of Kubernetes that most people should know about that might not know about. In other words, there was a lot of hype around Kubernetes, and it's warranted, it's a lot of buzz, what's an important area that's not talked about much that people should know more about it and pay attention to within the Kubernetes realms of that world? Is there any area that you think is not talked about enough that should be focused on in the conversations, the press, or just in general? >> Wow, that's a challenging question. I spent a lot of my time in the infrastructure side of Kubernetes, the lower end of the stack, so my brain immediately goes to networking and storage and all the lower level pieces there. I think there's a lot of policy knobs that Kubernetes has that not everybody's aware of, whether those are security policies or network policies. There's a whole family of these things and I think we're going to continue to acree more and more policy as more people come up with real-use cases for doing stuff. It's hard to keep that all in your mind, but it's really valuable stuff down there. >> For programmability, it's like a Holy Grail, really. Thoughts on the things that (chuckles) put you on the spot there? >> I think this question of how people should change what they were doing before if they're going to migrate to Kubernetes. To operate any workload, you need at least monitoring and you need really CI/CD if you want to operate with any amount of velocity. When you bring those practices to Kubernetes, should you just lift and shift those into Kubernetes or do you really need to change your mindset? I think Kubernetes really provides some capabilities that create opportunities for changing the way some things happen. I'm a big fan of GitOps, for example, in managing the resources to declaritively using version control as a source of truth and keeping that in sync with the state in your for live clusters. I think that enables a lot of interesting capabilities like instant disaster recovery, for example, migrations, new locations. There are some key folks here who are talking about that, giving that message, but we're really at the early stages there. >> All right, well great to have you guys on. Thanks for the insight. We've got to wrap up. Thanks Brian, thanks Tim, appreciate it. Live coverage here, theCUBE is at KubeCon, Cloud Native, Cloud 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, we'll be back after this short break.