>>Hey everyone. Welcome to this cube conversation featuring Sendbird. I'm your host, Lisa Martin, John Kim joins me next, the CEO of Sendbird John, welcome to the program. Talk to the audience about Sendbird. What is it that you guys do? What gaps in the market did you see back in 2013? >>Yeah. Well thank you for so much and I'm excited to be here. So just to give you a quick introduction about Sendbird, we started a company back in 2013, and then we first started out as a consumer based product building social network for moms, but around 2015, when the world was really moving towards messaging, we kind of looked at as an opportunity to build a message feature for our own application. That's when we kind of realized a problem that we, there weren't really modern SDK or API products that can enable modern messaging experience for other applications. So we decided to kind of build that and then actually launched on the side, which actually became the main business. So we applied a wide Combinator with that idea and launched to the world in 2016 and then kind of fast forward, you know, good six years. We're now powering over a quarter billion users on a monthly basis, sending billions of billions of messages, cross different vertical site, online community site credit like door C. So it's kinda where we're today. >>And you're now valued at 1 billion. So a lot of evolution, a lot of momentum since 2013, especially since 2016, but also during the last couple of years. Talk to me about some of the philosophies and the approaches that Sendbird has applied to be driving such momentum during such volatile times. >>Yeah, I think over the years, what we're all came to realize is that more and more and more businesses are becoming mobile first. So by focusing on the mobile basic experiences, conversations really became one of the most efficient and effective ways to build relationship between the users as well as the relationship with the brands. So by incorporating experiences like messaging, people were able to increase the engagement and the retention and ultimately conversion within the applications. And that's kind of where we come in because more and more it's, it's becoming harder and harder for developers and the business operators to build modern messaging experience. So we really want to make sure that all of the developers and all of the businesses can harness the power of in a messaging as easily as possible, getting all the, you know, feature richness plus the scalability that you need. So we really try to build the best in class product so that you can have those know messaging within your application. >>Let's talk about that. So B building relationships in a digital world today is table stakes for any business consumers, patience was quite thin. The last couple of years, it probably still is to some extent, but building relationships in today's omnichannel world, whereas consumers, we expect we can go to many different applications, apps, and complain, or raise issues with technologies or products or services. How is that table stakes for an organization to be able to have that in-app experience to retain the customers, the data, the insights. >>Yeah. Today, if you think about how a businesses are engaging with customers, there are a lot of different channels, right? There's SMS, there's, you know, phone calls, direct mailing emails, and also a messaging. If you think about as a user, what is the best experience you want to have with the, with the brands it's usually through the mobile applications. That's why the entire mobile economy has really grew and exploded over the years. One thing that if you think about again as a user, what are the experience that you don't like to have is if you think about SMSs SM now plagued with like phishing and scams issues, FTC reported that they're more than hundreds of millions of dollars that are costing us consumers last year, and that's more than 50% growth from the previous year. So more and more of these kind of other external channels are becoming a channel for again, for like fishing and scams and really disrupting the user experience. >>But if you think about the, a messaging becoming your default mode of engaging with the brands and other users is secure more reliable, and also as businesses you get, you, you get to control the user experience, plus actually owning the data. So you can actually improve your products and services on top of that. So that's some of the approaches that we've seen over the years. More and more businesses are using in a messaging as the default mode of communication, and then using other channels as a, kind of like a last mile delivery in case, you know, users, miss certain kind of conversation, they may rely on those other channels as all that option. Just to touch a little bit on the, just to touch a little bit on the messaging side of things. So if you think about how the world is using messaging today, you might, you know, think of missing apps like yo meta facing messenger, or, you know, WhatsApp and all of this, this other kind of consumer applications, consumer mobile messaging is kind of really dominating the world. But if you think about individual businesses, you really don't really want to hand over those experiences and the user data to other kind of social media networks. So what you want to do is actually have that similar level, if not better experience within your application, but also be able to, again, own those data, control this, those data and make sure that your users and your customers are having a very clean and secure experience on your application. >>Absolutely. Without secure clean experience is critical for brands. Talk to me about how your customer conversations have evolved over the last few years as brand loyalty, customer satisfaction, scores, churn. All of these things are very impactful to organizations. Has the conversation risen up the C-suite? Is it, is it that impactful these days? >>Yeah. So B really based on the brands that you are operating again, like the customer engagement and customer retention, and sometimes the conversations turning into business outcomes through convergence, all of these things are really impacted a lot by the conversations or in a messaging. So what we've seen over the years is anywhere from the user acquisition perspective, from the marketing also within the user engagement retention, that's happening in your application, whether it be user to user or your sales team, having conversations with the customers, ultimately to like customer support measuring CS, and how do you keep the customers? Sure that customers never hit a dead end. All of this entire customer journey now can be mapped through messaging. So because that's becoming more and more important and critical for your business, now's the, if you think about our buyers today, we are talking to CEOs and CTOs, as well as chief digital officers in some of these enterprises companies. >>That makes sense. I mean, some of the, the benefits that you've mentioned, increasing retention, driving I'm direct sales cross sale up sale, brand loyalty that impacts every aspect of an organization, customer success, et cetera. Let's talk now about some customer examples. I know you mentioned Reddit. I know hinge is another great customer example. Give me a couple examples that really showcase the value that Sunbird delivers. >>Yeah. So Reddit has been one of our earliest customers, even when you're like just a C stage company. If you think about Reddit, red has successfully trans trans transformed from the web based company to a mobile first company. And by incorporating a messaging to a modern experiences, just like, again, once you have on WhatsApp, they're able to increase the user engagement and ultimately the retention on the application. So more and more users are coming back to the application in any given month. So that's one, one example. And again, keeping the community safe and secure is very, very important for a community like Reddit. So offering powerful and moderation capabilities for the community MOS. Those are also very important factors why Reddi decided to work with us. Some of the other examples, like, you know, Crafton pub, one of the world's most successful and largest games today now, they able, they were able to increase their user engagement and ultimately the overall, you know, session time within the game by incorporating messaging that powers the users online communities through lobby chat, as well as, you know, client chat. >>So how to keep the users more engaged in return to game and stay there for a longer period of time, ultimately increasing the lifetime value of the gamers. And then a few other like business industry use cases like keep trucking recently rebranded as motive, drastically improved the collaboration between this, you know, operations control and, and it's truck drivers. So those kind of communication capabilities obviously increase the safety of the drivers as well as the trust and then openness and overall collaboration within the businesses. So those are some of the examples. And I think we mentioned like hinge before, how do you kind of bring all of those conversations to stay within the applications? So the users don't have to reveal their, you know, personal information so that the conversation become, again, stays on the application, keep the user happy, more secure and safe for the, all the users. >>That security is something that keeps jumping out to me. We have seen the threat landscape change dramatically in the last couple of years. It is so amorphous, but you mentioned the SMS security issues that it has. And I, I think a staff that you guys provided to me was that the FTC reported that tech scams cost us consumers 131 million last year in 2021, which as you mentioned, is a huge increase from 2020. Talk a little bit more about the importance of being able to abstract some of that personal information as consumers. We give it out so freely and it's, it's a it's risk. >>Absolutely. So again, some of the most common fishing scams that we all as the consumers receive these days are, you know, pretending to be another businesses telling you, Hey, click here to, you know, get a refund on, on, on a credit card charge or, you know, there's a fraudulent cases. Like there's something that makes you either call a number or, you know, go to a certain link and you kind of have to trust and try to figure out is this a messaging that's really that brand that you are engaging with? Or is this something someone else that's pretending to that, to be that brand? So is the burden is on the end customers, unfortunately, all the fishings and everything's like a law, large, large number. So the more people you send out those messages, ultimately someone will get tricked into those messages and ultimately costing a lot of money for the end consumers. >>Now, the benefit of having enough conversations is that your users are secure when the users get a push notification or in a message, you know, where that's exactly happening, cuz you have full context of the business and the application you're in. And then whenever someone, somebody sends you a message, you know, the sender and the receiver's already authenticated. So those users are secure from the get go. And because of the contextual rich experience you have within the messaging, plus all those extra security layers they're bake to the user experience, the, the end benefit for the customers are incredible. Cuz again, you can trust the conversation that you're having with the brand and then the messages tend to be a lot more richer and better user experience, also better latency and just overall more frictionless experience for the end customers. So that gives a lot more safety and more benefit for the end customer as well as the business brands. >>Absolutely two things that you just said that really jumped out at me. Trust and authenticity. We think of the five generations that are in the workforce today, engaging with companies via apps that, that trust and authenticity and that security is. It just, it gets more important every day. Talk to me about when you're in customer conversations or you're talking with analysts, what are some of the things that you describe as the key differentiators that makes Sendbird in-app messaging really stand out about the competition? >>Yeah. One of the things that we really focus on was can we actually serve the world? So scalability is one of the key important aspects, how we were able to win customers like Reddit, you know, DoorDash and even like incredible customers like Paytm, one of the largest FinTech application in India. So being able to provide us scalability so that your customers, our customers, and the developers can go to sleep at night without having to worry about will this work now, but also other on top of top of those things, the feature richness cuz ultimately what our customer want is how can they engage with their customers in a modern and ale way. So by offering the features that are up in the latest, in the greatest that you'd expect out of other consumer application, again like WhatsApp, Facebook messenger, or even things like slack, we offer a lot of those features from get go. >>So by having those feature richness out of the box, you can implement a modern missing experience from day one. So you can go to market much faster, but also give more trust for the users cuz ultimately end customers are already used to using the best missing experiences out there. So as soon as they kind of feel the experience are a little bit, you know, outdated, they'll stop trusting the brand. So how do you kind of give them moderate and trusting and, and secure experience for the user is very, very critical for the businesses. So you can offer those again from out of the box, >>Out of the box, absolutely table stakes for businesses in every industry. John, thank you so much for coming on the queue today. Talking to me about Sendbird in-app messaging, the values, the benefits, the what's in it for customers and businesses. We appreciate your insights. >>Thanks. So >>John Kim I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching this conversation.

>>Yeah. >>Hello. Welcome to the Special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John for a host of the Cube. We have a conversation around a I for the enterprise. What this means I got two great guests. John Finelli, Vice President, virtual GPU at NVIDIA and Maurizio D V D C T o University of Pisa in Italy. Uh, Practitioner, customer partner, um, got VM world coming up. A lot of action happening in the enterprise. John. Great to see you. Nice to meet you. Remotely coming in from Italy for this remote. >>John. Thanks for having us on again. >>Yeah. Nice to meet >>you. I wish we could be in person face to face, but that's coming soon. Hopefully, John, you were talking. We were just talking about before we came on camera about AI for the enterprise. And the last time I saw you in person was in Cuba interview. We were talking about some of the work you guys were doing in AI. It's gotten so much stronger and broader and the execution of an video, the success you're having set the table for us. What is the ai for the enterprise conversation frame? >>Sure. So, um, we, uh we've been working with enterprises today on how they can deliver a I or explore AI or get involved in a I, um uh, in a standard way in the way that they're used to managing and operating their data centre. Um, writing on top of you know, they're Dell servers with B M or V sphere. Um, so that AI feels like a standard workload that night organisation can deliver to their engineers and data scientists. And then the flip side of that, of course, is ensuring that engineers and data scientists get the workloads position to them or have access to them in the way that they need them. So it's no longer a trouble ticket that you have to submit to, I t and you know, count the hours or days or weeks until you you can get new hardware, right By being able to pull it into the mainstream data centre. I can enable self service provisioning for those folks. So we actually we make a I more consumable or easier to manage for I t administrators and then for the engineers and the data scientists, etcetera. We make it easy for them to get access to those resources so they can get to their work right away. >>Quite progress in the past two years. Congratulations on that and looking. It's only the beginning is Day one Mercy. I want to ask you about what's going on as the CTO University piece of what's happening down there. Tell us a little bit about what's going on. You have the centre of excellence there. What does that mean? What does that include? >>Uh, you know, uh, University of Peace. Are you one of one of the biggest and oldest in Italy? Uh, if you have to give you some numbers is around 50 K students and 3000 staff between, uh, professors resurgence and that cabinet receive staff. So I we are looking into data operation of the centres and especially supports for scientific computing. And, uh, this is our our daily work. Let's say this, uh, taking us a lot of times, but, you know, we are able to, uh, reserve a merchant percentage of our time, Uh, for r and D, And this is where the centre of excellence is, Uh, is coming out. Uh, so we are always looking into new kinds of technologies that we can put together to build new solutions to do next generation computing gas. We always say we are looking for the right partners to do things together. And at the end of the day is the work that is good for us is good for our partners and typically, uh, ends in a production system for our university. So is the evolution of the scientific computing environment that we have. >>Yeah. And you guys have a great track record and reputation of, you know, R and D, testing software, hardware combinations and sharing those best practises, you know, with covid impact in the world. Certainly we see it on the supply chain side. Uh, and John, we heard Jensen, your CEO and video talk multiple keynotes. Now about software, uh, and video being a software company. Dell, you mentioned Dale and VM Ware. You know, Covid has brought this virtualisation world back. And now hybrid. Those are words that we used basically in the text industry. Now it's you're hearing hybrid and virtualisation kicked around in real world. So it's ironic that vm ware and El, uh, and the Cube eventually all of us together doing more virtual stuff. So with covid impacting the world, how does that change you guys? Because software is more important. You gotta leverage the hardware you got, Whether it's Dell or in the cloud, this is a huge change. >>Yeah. So, uh, as you mentioned organisations and enterprises, you know, they're looking at things differently now, Um, you know, the idea of hybrid. You know, when you talk to tech folks and we think about hybrid, we always think about you know, how the different technology works. Um, what we're hearing from customers is hybrid, you know, effectively translates into, you know, two days in the office, three days remote, you know, in the future when they actually start going back to the office. So hybrid work is actually driving the need for hybrid I t. Or or the ability to share resources more effectively. Um, And to think about having resources wherever you are, whether you're working from home or you're in the office that day, you need to have access to the same resources. And that's where you know the the ability to virtualize those resources and provide that access makes that hybrid part seamless >>mercy What's your world has really changed. You have students and faculty. You know, Things used to be easy in the old days. Physical in this network. That network now virtual there. You must really be having him having impact. >>Yeah, we have. We have. Of course. As you can imagine, a big impact, Uh, in any kind of the i t offering, uh, from, uh, design new networking technologies, deploying new networking technologies, uh, new kind of operation we find. We found it at them. We were not able anymore to do burr metal operations directly, but, uh, from the i t point of view, uh, we were how can I say prepared in the sense that, uh, we ran from three or four years parallel, uh, environment. We have bare metal and virtual. So as you can imagine, traditional bare metal HPC cluster D g d g X machines, uh, multi GPU s and so on. But in parallel, we have developed, uh, visual environment that at the beginning was, as you can imagine, used, uh, for traditional enterprise application, or VD. I, uh, we have a significant significant arise on a farm with the grid for remote desktop remote pull station that we are using for, for example, uh, developing a virtual classroom or visual go stations. And so this is was typical the typical operation that we did the individual world. But in the same infrastructure, we were able to develop first HPC individual borders of utilisation of the HPC resources for our researchers and, uh, at the end, ai ai offering and ai, uh, software for our for our researchers, you can imagine our vehicle infrastructure as a sort of white board where we are able to design new solution, uh, in a fast way without losing too much performance. And in the case of the AI, we will see that we the performance are almost the same at the bare metal. But with all the flexibility that we needed in the covid 19 world and in the future world, too. >>So a couple things that I want to get John's thoughts as well performance you mentioned you mentioned hybrid virtual. How does VM Ware and NVIDIA fit into all this as you put this together, okay, because you bring up performance. That's now table stakes. He's leading scale and performance are really on the table. everyone's looking at it. How does VM ware an NVIDIA John fit in with the university's work? >>Sure. So, um, I think you're right when it comes to, uh, you know, enterprises or mainstream enterprises beginning their initial foray into into a I, um there are, of course, as performance in scale and also kind of ease of use and familiarity are all kind of things that come into play in terms of when an enterprise starts to think about it. And, um, we have a history with VM Ware working on this technology. So in 2019, we introduced our virtual compute server with VM Ware, which allowed us to effectively virtual is the Cuda Compute driver at last year's VM World in 2020 the CEOs of both companies got together and made an announcement that we were going to bring a I R entire video AI platform to the Enterprise on top of the sphere. And we did that, Um, starting in March this year, we we we finalise that with the introduction of GM wears V, Sphere seven, update two and the early access at the time of NVIDIA ai Enterprise. And, um, we have now gone to production with both of those products. And so customers, Um, like the University of Pisa are now using our production capabilities. And, um, whenever you virtualize in particular and in something like a I where performances is really important. Um, the first question that comes up is, uh doesn't work and And how quickly does it work Or or, you know, from an I t audience? A lot of times you get the How much did it slow down? And and and so we We've worked really closely from an NVIDIA software perspective and a bm wear perspective. And we really talk about in media enterprise with these fair seven as optimist, certified and supported. And the net of that is, we've been able to run the standard industry benchmarks for single node as well as multi note performance, with about maybe potentially a 2% degradation in performance, depending on the workload. Of course, it's very different, but but effectively being able to trade that performance for the accessibility, the ease of use, um, and even using things like we realise, automation for self service for the data scientists, Um and so that's kind of how we've been pulling it together for the market. >>Great stuff. Well, I got to ask you. I mean, people have that reaction of about the performance. I think you're being polite. Um, around how you said that shows the expectation. It's kind of sceptical, uh, and so I got to ask you, the impact of this is pretty significant. What is it now that customers can do that? They couldn't or couldn't feel they had before? Because if the expectations as well as it worked well, I mean, there's a fast means. It works, but like performance is always concerned. What's different now? What what's the bottom line impact on what country do now that they couldn't do before. >>So the bottom line impact is that AI is now accessible for the enterprise across there. Called their mainstream data centre, enterprises typically use consistent building blocks like the Dell VX rail products, right where they have to use servers that are common standard across the data centre. And now, with NVIDIA Enterprise and B M R V sphere, they're able to manage their AI in the same way that they're used to managing their data centre today. So there's no retraining. There's no separate clusters. There isn't like a shadow I t. So this really allows an enterprise to efficiently deploy um, and cost effectively Deploy it, uh, it without because there's no performance degradation without compromising what their their their data scientists and researchers are looking for. And then the flip side is for the data science and researcher, um, using some of the self service automation that I spoke about earlier, they're able to get a virtual machine today that maybe as a half a GPU as their models grow, they do more exploring. They might get a full GPU or or to GPS in a virtual machine. And their environment doesn't change because it's all connected to the back end storage. And so for the for the developer and the researcher, um, it makes it seamless. So it's really kind of a win for both Nike and for the user. And again, University of Pisa is doing some amazing things in terms of the workloads that they're doing, Um, and, uh and, uh, and are validating that performance. >>Weigh in on this. Share your opinion on or your reaction to that, What you can do now that you couldn't do before. Could you share your experience? >>Our experience is, uh, of course, if you if you go to your, uh, data scientists or researchers, the idea of, uh, sacrificing four months to flexibility at the beginning is not so well accepted. It's okay for, uh, for the Eid management, As John was saying, you have people that is know how to deal with the virtual infrastructure, so nothing changed for them. But at the end of the day, we were able to, uh, uh, test with our data. Scientists are researchers veteran The performance of us almost similar around really 95% of the performance for the internal developer developer to our work clothes. So we are not dealing with benchmarks. We have some, uh, work clothes that are internally developed and apply to healthcare music generator or some other strange project that we have inside and were able to show that the performance on the beautiful and their metal world were almost the same. We, the addition that individual world, you are much more flexible. You are able to reconfigure every finger very fast. You are able to design solution for your researcher, uh, in a more flexible way. An effective way we are. We were able to use the latest technologies from Dell Technologies and Vidia. You can imagine from the latest power edge the latest cuts from NVIDIA. The latest network cards from NVIDIA, like the blue Field to the latest, uh, switches to set up an infrastructure that at the end of the day is our winning platform for our that aside, >>a great collaboration. Congratulations. Exciting. Um, get the latest and greatest and and get the new benchmarks out their new playbooks. New best practises. I do have to ask you marriage, if you don't mind me asking why Look at virtualizing ai workloads. What's the motivation? Why did you look at virtualizing ai work clothes? >>Oh, for the sake of flexibility Because, you know, uh, in the latest couple of years, the ai resources are never enough. So we are. If you go after the bare metal, uh, installation, you are going into, uh, a world that is developing very fastly. But of course, you can afford all the bare metal, uh, infrastructure that your data scientists are asking for. So, uh, we decided to integrate our view. Dual infrastructure with AI, uh, resources in order to be able to, uh, use in different ways in a more flexible way. Of course. Uh, we have a We have a two parallels world. We still have a bare metal infrastructure. We are growing the bare metal infrastructure. But at the same time, we are growing our vehicle infrastructure because it's flexible, because we because our our stuff, people are happy about how the platform behaviour and they know how to deal them so they don't have to learn anything new. So it's a sort of comfort zone for everybody. >>I mean, no one ever got hurt virtualizing things that makes it makes things go better faster building on on that workloads. John, I gotta ask you, you're on the end video side. You You see this real up close than video? Why do people look at virtualizing ai workloads is the unification benefit. I mean, ai implies a lot of things, implies you have access to data. It implies that silos don't exist. I mean, that doesn't mean that's hard. I mean, is this real people actually looking at this? How is it working? >>Yeah. So? So again, um you know for all the benefits and activity today AI brings a I can be pretty complex, right? It's complex software to set up and to manage. And, um, within the day I enterprise, we're really focusing in on ensuring that it's easier for organisations to use. For example Um, you know, I mentioned you know, we we had introduced a virtual compute server bcs, um uh, two years ago and and that that has seen some some really interesting adoption. Some, uh, enterprise use cases. But what we found is that at the driver level, um, it still wasn't accessible for the majority of enterprises. And so what we've done is we've built upon that with NVIDIA Enterprise and we're bringing in pre built containers that remove some of the complexities. You know, AI has a lot of open source components and trying to ensure that all the open source dependencies are resolved so you can get the AI developers and researchers and data scientists. Actually doing their work can be complex. And so what we've done is we've brought these pre built containers that allow you to do everything from your initial data preparation data science, using things like video rapids, um, to do your training, using pytorch and tensorflow to optimise those models using tensor rt and then to deploy them using what we call in video Triton Server Inference in server. Really helping that ai loop become accessible, that ai workflow as something that an enterprise can manage as part of their common core infrastructure >>having the performance and the tools available? It's just a huge godsend people love. That only makes them more productive and again scales of existing stuff. Okay, great stuff. Great insight. I have to ask, What's next one's collaboration? This is one of those better together situations. It's working. Um, Mauricio, what's next for your collaboration with Dell VM Ware and video? >>We will not be for sure. We will not stop here. Uh, we are just starting working on new things, looking for new development, uh, looking for the next beast. Come, uh, you know, the digital world is something that is moving very fast. Uh, and we are We will not We will not stop here because because they, um the outcome of this work has been a very big for for our research group. And what John was saying This the fact that all the software stock for AI are simplified is something that has been, uh, accepted. Very well, of course you can imagine researching is developing new things. But for people that needs, uh, integrated workflow. The work that NVIDIA has done in the development of software package in developing containers, that gives the end user, uh, the capabilities of running their workloads is really something that some years ago it was unbelievable. Now, everything is really is really easy to manage. >>John mentioned open source, obviously a big part of this. What are you going to? Quick, Quick follow if you don't mind. Are you going to share your results so people can can look at this so they can have an easier path to AI? >>Oh, yes, of course. All the all the work, The work that is done at an ideal level from University of Visa is here to be shared. So we we as, uh, as much as we have time to write down we are. We are trying to find a way to share the results of the work that we're doing with our partner, Dell and NVIDIA. So for sure will be shared >>well, except we'll get that link in the comments, John, your thoughts. Final thoughts on the on the on the collaboration, uh, with the University of Pisa and Delvian, where in the video is is all go next? >>Sure. So So with University of Pisa, We're you know, we're absolutely, uh, you know, grateful to Morocco and his team for the work they're doing and the feedback they're sharing with us. Um, we're learning a lot from them in terms of things we can do better and things that we can add to the product. So that's a fantastic collaboration. Um, I believe that Mauricio has a session at the M World. So if you want to actually learn about some of the workloads, um, you know, they're doing, like, music generation. They're doing, you know, covid 19 research. They're doing deep, multi level, uh, deep learning training. So there's some really interesting work there, and so we want to continue that partnership. University of Pisa, um, again, across all four of us, uh, university, NVIDIA, Dell and VM Ware. And then on the tech side, you know, for our enterprise customers, um, you know, one of the things that we actually didn't speak much about was, um I mentioned that the product is optimised certified and supported, and I think that support cannot be understated. Right? So as enterprises start to move into these new areas, they want to know that they can pick up the phone and call in video or VM ware. Adele, and they're going to get support for these new workloads as they're running them. Um, we were also continuing, uh, you know, to to think about we spent a lot of time today on, like, the developer side of things and developing ai. But the flip side of that, of course, is that when those ai apps are available or ai enhanced apps, right, Pretty much every enterprise app today is adding a I capabilities all of our partners in the enterprise software space and so you can think of a beady eye enterprises having a runtime component so that as you deploy your applications into the data centre, they're going to be automatically take advantage of the GPS that you have there. And so we're seeing this, uh, future as you're talking about the collaboration going forward, where the standard data centre building block still maintains and is going to be something like a VX rail two U server. But instead of just being CPU storage and RAM, they're all going to go with CPU, GPU, storage and RAM. And that's going to be the norm. And every enterprise application is going to be infused with AI and be able to take advantage of GPS in that scenario. >>Great stuff, ai for the enterprise. This is a great QB conversation. Just the beginning. We'll be having more of these virtualizing ai workloads is real impacts data scientists impacts that compute the edge, all aspects of the new environment we're all living in. John. Great to see you, Maurizio here to meet you and all the way in Italy looking for the meeting in person and good luck in your session. I just got a note here on the session. It's at VM World. Uh, it's session 22 63 I believe, um And so if anyone's watching, Want to check that out? Um, love to hear more. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for having us. Thanks to >>its acute conversation. I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching. We'll talk to you soon. Yeah,

>>Welcome to this cube conversation that is a part of the AWS startup showcase. I'm lisa martin I've got with me now the ceo of amazon john Vitaly john welcome to the cube >>lisa. It's a pleasure to be here. Nice to see you. >>Likewise give our audience in a real liaison and what it is that you guys do specifically in pharma and life sciences. >>Well, you can find that in our, the name of the company is on uh, we think of us as leading uh, customers to the horizon of AI and pharmaceutical, biological manufacturing. And uh, we're all about helping our customers take The step into Pharma 40 and really realized the value of leveraging, machine learning and artificial intelligence in the manufacturing process so they can get higher yields and predictability and ultimately better outcomes for their patients. >>Is your technology built on AWS? >>Absolutely. From the ground up. We leverage, yeah, we leveraged as much as we can from AWS innovation and, you know, a few years ago, when our founders envisioned the future of manufacturing in this industry and where it needs to go first thought was go with a leader to build the solutions and of course A W. S. Is by far the largest provider of this type of technology. And we're happy to say that we're helping and partnering with A W. S. Two to advance the science of artificial intelligence in life sciences. And uh it's just a natural fit for us to continue to leverage the platform on behalf of our customers. >>I like that. The Ai horizon. Excellent. So talk to me a little bit about, you know, the last year has been presented many challenges and also opportunities for people in every industry. I'm just wondering what are some of the changes that we've seen? Farm and life sciences companies have become household names for example, but talk to me about some of the the key initiatives in smart manufacturing and what pharma companies require. >>Well sure, you know farmer companies and biotech companies like look into the lessons from other industries where ai has been widely adopted. If you look at uh manufacturing and other industries has been widely adopted for a number of years. Tesla is a great example of how to use A. I. And robotics and and data science uh to advance uh the efficiency of manufacturing globally. Uh that's exactly what we're trying to achieve here in in life sciences. So um you know, a lot of the leading innovators in this space have been working in their labs with data science teams to you know find new ways to collect data uh to cleanse that data, make it data that's useful across the enterprise. Um but they haven't really tackled, you know, continuous processing in manufacturing yet. There are a number of leaders that are mapping out strategies and they've begun to go down this path. Um But most are really looking at how first to bring the data together in a way that it could be democratized and anonymous in some cases and used across the enterprise. Uh There's a model that we've adopted in terms of our product strategy and how we engage customers and that's the uh the the pharmaceutical maturity model which was developed by the bio forum. This maturity models is a great way for companies and vendors alike innovators to look at how to help Advance their capabilities from one level to the next. And so we help customers understand where they are in that journey and we look for the areas where they can get traction more quickly. They can see value sooner and therefore the adoption would would be accelerating across across their their sites. And in different ways of use. >>Is that maturity model? That farm of maturity model? Is it is it built on or based on digital transformation? >>Absolutely. It's all about digital transformation. And so the model really begins with pre digital and you'd be amazed to find I think the the amount of Excel spreadsheets that are still used in manufacturing today and that would be what we would consider to be pretty much pre digital because that data is not accessible. It's only used by the operator or the user. So it's really about getting from that level to uh breaking down data silos and bringing that data together and harmonizing the data and making it useful. The next level would be about the connected plant actually connecting machines and data lakes um to begin to get more value and find find more ways to improve the processes. And then you move up to using advanced analytics and AI and then ultimately have an enterprise wide adaptive manufacturing capabilities, which is really the ultimate vision, ultimate goal. Every manufacturer has. >>One of the things that we've been talking about for the last 14 plus months or so is really the acceleration in cloud adoption, digital transformation as really a survival mechanism that many industries undertook. And we saw all of us go remote or many of us and be dependent on cloud based collaboration tools. For example, I'm curious in the pharmaceutical industry again, as I said, you know, we we know that the big three and for household names that many of us have been following for the last 14 months or so. What have you seen in terms of acceleration? Informal companies going all right, we need to figure out where we are in this maturity model. We need to be able to accelerate, you know, drug discovery, be able to get access to data. Has that accelerated in the Covid era? >>Covid has been the great catalyst of all time for this industry. Ah and I think it was a wake up call for a lot of, a lot of people in the industry to recognize that uh, just because we have the highest quality standards and we have highest level of compliance requirements and um, we ultimately all think about efficacy and patient safety as our goal to achieve the highest levels of quality. Everyone agrees with that. What the realization was is that we do not have the capacity in any, any geography or with any company, um, to meet the demands that we're seeing today demands to get product to market the demand to get the supply chain right and make it work for manufacturing. The, uh, the uh, The opportunity to partner to get there was, you know, you can see that by the way companies came together to partner for COVID-19 vaccine manufacturing production. And so, um, it was a wake up call that it's time to get over the kind of cultural barriers, risk aversion and really come together to coalesce around a a smart manufacturing strategy that has to be combined with a G XP or good manufacturing compliance standards. And that has to be designed in to the technology and manufacturing processes Together. That's Pharma 4.0, >>got it. Thank you. Let's dig in more to that GSP compliance. And you guys, we talk about that in different industries. The X being, you know, X for X type of industry, talk to me about the compliance regulations and your G XP AI platform and how you guys built on top of amazon, help customers evolve their maturity and facilitate complaints. >>Absolutely. So as I alluded to earlier, one of the biggest challenges is just getting the data together in a place that you can actually manage it. And because there's so many legacy systems and on predominantly on prem technologies and use today, cloud is starting to gain a lot more traction, but it's been limited to uh kind of tier two and tier three data. Uh so now we're seeing uh you know, the recognition that uh just having a data link isn't enough. And so uh we have to overcome, you know, the biggest barrier is really a version to change and change management is really a huge part of any customer being successful. And I think with a W S and us, we were working together to help customers customers understand the type of change management that's required. It's not enough to say, well, we're going to apply the old techniques and processes and use new technology. It just doesn't work that way. If you're adding people uh, and scaling up people just to do validation, worked on a brand new platform, like AWS offers, like we offer on top of AWS, you just won't get three return on investment, you won't get the outcomes and results you're targeting. Uh you have to really have a full strategy in place. Um but you can, and start in small ways, you can start to get traction with use cases that might not have the a huge impact that you're looking for, but it's a way to get started. And uh, the AWS platform is, you know, a great way to look at um, a strategy to scale manufacturing not just in one site but across multiple sites because it's really a data management strategy uh for us using US components uh to build our data collection technology was the starting point. So how do you bring this day together and make it easy and with low overhead and begin to use Ai at the point of collection? So we built our technology with AWS components to do that it's called we call them be data feeders and those are agents that go out and collect that data and bring it together. We also because of the way at AWS innovated around data management we can use a multitude of components to continue to build capabilities on top of what we have today. So we're excited to partner to follow the AWS Roadmap but also continue to add value to what A. W. S. Does today for customers. >>Right? Seems very symbiotic but also your gives you the platform gives you the agility and flexibility that you need to turn things on a dime. I like how you said Covid was a catalyst. I've been saying that for a year now there are things that it has catalyzed for the good and one of those that we've seen repeatedly is that the need for real time data access in many industries like life sciences and pharma is no longer a nice to have but it's incredibly challenging to get real time access to high quality data. Be able to run analytics on that you know, identify where the supply chain in the manufacturing process. For example things can be optimized. Give me an example or some examples of some of the use cases that you guys are working with customers on. I imagine things like that to process optimization, anomaly detection. But what are some of those key use cases in which you really excel? >>Well, it all starts with with what we can do around predictions. There's a lot of data science work being done today, understand variability and how to reduce deviations and how to get more um of predictions to know what is expected to happen. Uh But a lot of that doesn't get applied to the processes. It's not applied as a change the process because that requires revalidation of that entire process. Our platform brings huge value to customers and partners because we do the qualification and validation on the platform in real time. And so that eliminates the needs to go back out and deploy people and uh track and re document uh and re validate what's going on in the process. So that that just takes a huge uh responsibility in some cases liabilities off off of the operators and uh the folks analyzing the data. So that's that's really to get to real time. You have to think carefully about how to apply apply ai because a I was developed in a scientific way but you also have to apply it in a scientific way to to these critical processes in manufacturing. And so that's that's only done uh on a platform, you can't do it on a kind of a stand alone basis. You have to leverage a platform because you're analysing changes to the data and to the code being used to collect and analyze the data that all has to be documented. And that's that's done by our capabilities are using to audit or create audit trails uh to any changes that are happening in the process. And so that's a critical critical process monitoring capability. That is almost impossible to do manually. Uh Some some would say it's impossible to do manually. Uh so uh the the ability to to qualify algorithms to validate in real time enables real time manufacturing and there's a F. D A. Uh I would I would say mandate but guidance called continuous process verification cPV that they will be coming out with additional guidance on that this year. That's really there to uh tell tell manufacturers that they should be getting to real time capabilities. They should be driving their investments and and types of deployments to get to real time manufacturing. That's the only way you can predict deviations and predict anomalies and deal with them in the process and track it. >>So give me give me a snapshot of a customer or two that you've worked with in the last year as they were rapidly evolving and adjusting to the changes going on. How did you help some of these customers extract more value from their pharma manufacturing processes, understand what it is that they need to do to embrace A. I. And get to that real time. >>Absolutely. So, you know, most of our customers are facing the challenge and dilemma that just adding more people and more resources and even upgrading existing technologies or adding more data scientist has a limit. They've reached the limit of improvement that they can make to these processes in the output in manufacturing. So the next natural step would be to say, okay, what science can I apply here and what technology is available To really get to that next one or two improvement in the processes. And it's really critical to look at um you know, not just one use case, but how can I address multiple problems using the same technology? So bringing multi variant uh multi variable excuse me. Um analysis capabilities um is is something that's done in every other industry um but it has not been applied here in terms of changing how manufacturing works today. We can do that, we can we can do multi variable analysis in real time, we can predict what will happen. We can actually alert the operator to make changes to the process based on uh a number of predictions of what will happen in a batch or series of matches in manufacturing. We also bring unstructured data into those calculations that wasn't possible before cloud technology came along and before a I was deployed. Um So now we can look at environmental inputs, we can look at um upstream data that can be used for improving um you know, the yield on batches. So the you know, the main um focus today is you know, how do I get, reduce my risk around asset management? How can I improve visibility into the supply chain? How can I reduce deviations in these processes? How can I get more yield? How can I optimize the yield uh in any given batch uh to improve uh you know, the entire process but also reduce costs in each step of the way. Uh So uh the good news is that when you apply our technology and our know how uh there's an immediate positive impact. There's a customer, we're working with very large customer where we walked in and they said we have this problem, we've reached a certain level of optimization and yield. We can't seem to get it to go any higher. and within six weeks we had a solution in place and we are saving them tens of millions of dollars in material loss just in that once one step in the process that's worth hundreds of millions of dollars in terms of finished product. Uh and if you apply that across multiple lines and across multiple manufacturing sites for that customer, we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars of savings, um >>significant impact, significant business impact that your customers I saw on the website, you know, R. O. I. And was at six when I get this right. I had it here somewhere um quite quickly. But the key thing there is that these organizations actually are really moving their business forward. You just gave some great examples of how you can do that. And just kind of a phase one of the project. Let me ask you this in in a post Covid world, assuming we'll get there hopefully soon. Where is in your opinion? Um Ai and ml for pharma companies, is it going to be something that is is for those that adopt it and adopt all the change management needed to do that? Is it going to be kind of the factor in deciding the winners and the losers of tomorrow? Okay, >>well, I don't want to lay down predictions like that, but I would, what I would say is uh all of thought leaders out there have have openly shared and privately shared that this is exactly where the industry has to go to meet the demands. Not just of ramping up COVID-19 vaccine production on a global basis, which we have to do. It's also dealing with how do we how do we uh scale up for personalized medicine, which requires small, small batch manufacturing? How do we turn over lines of manufacturing more efficiently to get more drugs to market more different types of drugs to market, how to contract manufacturers deal with all these pressures, um, and still serve their customers and innovate. Uh, there's also the rise of generics there, you know, that's bringing on cost pressures for big pharma particularly. And so these are all moving the industry in the right direction to respond to these on an individual basis. Would would definitely require the use of Ai and Ml But when you bring it all together, there's a huge huge of push for finding and finding breakthroughs to increase capacity and quality at the same time. >>Yeah, tremendous opportunity. My last question for you, john is a bit more on the personal side. I know you're a serial entrepreneur. What drew you to a zon when you have the opportunity? I can only imagine based on some of the things that you've said. But what was it that you said? This is my next great >>opportunity. That's a great question because I asked myself that question, uh so having been in the industry for for a long time, having been with very innovative companies my whole career, uh I knew that uh manufacturing had fallen behind even further in terms of innovating using the latest cloud technologies and ai in particular, I knew that from running another company uh that focused on the use of predictive analytics. And so uh given all the vectors coming together, the market pressure that's happening on the technology, absolutely. Being a maturity level that we could we could make these things a reality for customers in the size of the challenge. And market opportunity was just overwhelming. It was it was enough to make me jump in with both feet. So I'm very happy uh to be leading such a great team and amazing, amazing talent at amazon and super excited about our partnership with a W. S and where that's going and solving very, very complex and very critical, uh, challenges that our customers are facing together as partners. >>Absolutely. Well, john, thank you for joining me today and talking to us about who is on is what you're doing, particularly in pharma and life sciences, smart manufacturing and what you're enabling in a covid catalysis sort of way. We appreciate you joining us here today. >>This has been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. >>Likewise for john Vitaly, I'm lisa martin, you're watching the cube.

(upbeat introductory music) >> Presenter: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is theCUBE CONVERSATION. >> Hi everyone, welcome to this special CUBE CONVERSATION I'm John Furrier, Host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California in our studios, we have a remote guest here talking about cybersecurity and all the industry trends and the recent news and announcements around Fortinet with John Madison CMO and Executive Vice President of products at Fortinet John, great to see you, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to have you back for some commentary around what's going on in the trends and your recent news. So thanks for coming on. >> Thanks John, nice to see you again. >> So you guys had earnings, congratulations again another successful results, you guys are doing well. Cyber is super important and that's the top conversation, cloud computing, cloud native, we're living in a pandemic. New things are exposed. Clearly the environment has changed in the past four months in a major, major way. So a lot of demand, a lot of needs out there from customers. So you guys had some earnings and you also have an update on your Fortinet OS67.0 platform with major updates. Let's quickly hit the news real quick. What's the hot topic? >> Yeah, well you're right. Things have accelerated in some ways in this cybersecurity world and we had the recent solar winds incident that's also made people look really, really closely at their cyber security strategy and architecture. We announced our results yesterday for Q4. For Q4 we had over 20% product growth which is the key, of course, the future growth. We also, for the full year in 2020 past 3 billion in billings for the first time for the company. And we're really proud of that. We're proud for a lot of reasons with our people and our team, but also another company that goes and makes large acquisitions to boost revenue and billings growth. We've done it predominantly organically over the last 20 years. And so we're very proud of our achievement and obviously a big thank you to our partners, our employees, and our customers. >> We also have been covering you guys for many, many years. Congratulations, well deserved good products win the long game, as we say on theCUBE, and that's a great Testament, but now more than ever I really want to get your thoughts because everyone that I talked to is really kind of sitting back saying, "Wow, look what's happened in the past three, six months in particular, a lot of sea change in both on the technical landscape, the intersection with society obviously with cyber, you mentioned solar winds that's been kind of hanging around. More data's coming out about how pervasive that was and how native it was for many months. So what's out there, we don't even know what's next. So this is causing a lot of people to take pause and reevaluate their environment. Can you share your perspective and how Fortinet sees this playing out and how that you are advising your customers? >> Yeah, well, leaving compliance and regulatory to one side for now because that's also a driver cybersecurity and focus on the two main drivers. One is the threat landscape, and I hinted a bit around that supply chain attack which affects a lot of people in solar winds incident. They got hold or got onto a device that has privileged access across a lot of servers and applications. And that's exactly what they wanted to get to. So state-sponsored ABTs, there's still volume out there. We still see now ransomware doubling every six months but that's very scary. The threat landscape around state sponsored. Now, the other driver of cybersecurity is the infrastructure. And whether that be end point. So as you know people are working from home as I am for the last eight months. So there's a on and off network, end point kind of a zero trust architecture there that people are looking towards. On the network side, we've seen these edges develop. And so whether it be the WAN edge, LANedge, Cloud Edge, data center edge even OT edge, those need protecting. So that's a big challenge for customers. And then also on the cloud side where the applications have moved to cloud, but different types of cloud, multi-cloud I've even seen building cloud recently. So that's a very adaptive area. So challenging for the customer in the terms of the threats and weaponized threats as well as the ability to cover all the different parts of the attack surface going forward. >> It's interesting, we've been living in a generation in the technology business around, you just get a tool for that. Every hammer looks for a nail, that's the expression. Now more than ever when you have this no perimeter environment, which we've been talking about for many years, that's not new. What is new is that everyone's now thinking about architectural systems approach to this and thinking systematically around the platform of what their business is. So in your announcement that you guys just released for OS67.0, there's really some meat on the bone there. You have the secure access, edge SASE and then the endpoint protection which are defined categories by the analyst. But those are the areas that are super hot. Can you translate that into the architectural equation because you and I were talking before we came on camera around how it's not just one thing there's multiple layers to this. Could you break that out for us please? >> Yeah. If you look at historically and I'm now coming up to my 20th year in cybersecurity. Before Fortinet I worked for an end point company. If you go back a while and I can, between 2000, 2010, the Endpoint Vendors were the the big cybersecurity players because Endpoint was where the data was and everything else. And then over the last 10 years the network security vendors, the next gen firewalls have been the most important vendors out there. And it's also reflected in revenues and market cap and everything else. What we're going to see over the next 10 years is the platform. And that platform can't be just an endpoint platform. It can't be just a network security platform or just the cloud platform, because you only, you're only seeing and defending and protecting a part of the overall we call digital experience. Whether it be a device in the factory, whether it be a person dialing in from somewhere or connecting from somewhere through the network and through to the applications you've got to measure that digital experience. And so that's going to be very important to be able to provide a platform that sits across all your devices users, across your whole network including new networks like 5G and across the applications and in the cloud. So the platform to us extends across all those areas. We've been building that platform on what we call our FortiOS operating system. The latest release is 7.0, which released yesterday. It obviously upgrades and extends all parts of the platform but we did major parts of the release yesterday were around SASE, which of course is the CloudEdge. So we're adding that CloudEdge to our component. We did acquire a company Opaque Networks a few months ago that's now we've integrated that technology. And then just as importantly on the access side, a zero trust network access capability for giving access per application. In fact, again, with this, I've talked a bit about in the past about all these Gartner acronyms I don't think zero trust network access is the right wording for it. It should be application access, because that's all we are going to move to. Application specific access versus just getting on the network and getting access to everything. But something that gives you context. So those are the two big things, but there's 300 plus new features across networking end point in cloud across management, inside the resource. It's a major release for us. And it gives us our customers the capability to really protect that attack surface from the end point to the cloud. >> Yeah, there's a lot of meat in there, from that release, I've got to say. but it's basically you're saying devices and users have access. That's been around. There's been tools for that. You hire people, you get some tools. Network access, it's been around. It's getting evolving. Now apps in the cloud, cloud native is a hot area. And people that I talk to, I want to get your reaction to this comment that I hear from people and customers and CXOs and developers. "Hey, we bought a tool for that. We hired a bunch of people. They mainly left, or the environment changed. We bought another tool. And then we bought a tool for that. We bought a tool for that." And then you have this kind of tool shed mentality, where they have tools that don't even have people to run them. So you have this problem there kind of tools need to be upgraded. And then you have this hot trend of observability on the app side, where now you have new data coming in on the application side, those are new tools. You got all kinds of stuff and competing for that. How do you talk to that customer? Because this is what the customer hears all this noise, all this action. They need to have it. They got to have the staff, they got to be trained up. What's going on there? What's your reaction to that? And how do you talk to customers who have this problem? Well, it's a big problem for them. Because, and by the way when I speak to a lot of customers about cloud they don't go to cloud because it's cheaper. It's not, it's actually more expensive. But they go to cloud to give them more agility because they want flexibility in the way they deploy applications as they go forward. And again, this pandemic has made a lot of companies realize they need to be more flexible in the way they deploy IT resources and faster in the way they bring up new services and applications. And so, but there's quite a few elements I say of cybersecurity and networking, which to me and to us are just features. You shouldn't be buying 40 different networking and cybersecurity vendors. You just can't staff and maintain that. And so we do see some things consolidated and converging into a single platform. We're a leader in the magic quadrant for SD WAN or a leader for network security or a visionary in WIFI. And many of the times in each of those magic quadrants, it's a different vendor or if it's the same vendor it's a different platform. For us it's the same platform in each one. And we pride ourselves in building not only best of breed capabilities, but also it's the same platform same management system, same API. And that gives the customer some capabilities in trying to manage that. What we say to customers is not a question of going from 40 vendors down to one That's no good, but go from 40 vendors down to maybe seven or eight platforms but make sure those platforms can inter-operate. They can share policy, and they can share threat intelligence. And that's why customers are looking to more of an architectural approach to cybersecurity but also they feel cybersecurity and networking are starting to converge at the same time. >> One of the biggest stories we're covering these days in 2021 besides the pandemic and how people are going to come out with a growth strategy that's secure, trusted and scalable, is the rise of the new executive in business in the enterprise where they're more tech savvy, right? You see executives like Satya and Intel. Intel, rise with the CEO of Microsoft. Andy Jassy rise up to the CEO of Amazon and you're seeing lawmakers in DC become more techie, less lawyer-oriented. So you seeing the rise of a business techie person. And I think this speaks to this holistic fabric philosophy you guys have as you talk to customers, when they look at the business impact of cybersecurity, for instance you mentioned solar winds earlier. I mean, these are deadly company killing events. This is real. So it's not just an IT problem. It's a business problem. How do you guys talk to customers, obviously that you have the security fabric and you're stitching things together? What's the conversation when you talk to customers like that? >> One interesting thing I've noticed, and I do quite a lot of customer calls each week, executive briefings and pretty early on, I noticed that both the infrastructure networking with the CIO team and the cyber security the CSO teams run on the same video call and that's got more and more as we've gone on. And I think what companies have realized is that if they want to move fast, they can't have these silos or this layering of capabilities. Then when they build something they needed to build it securely from day one and have that as a joint team. And so I don't think the teams are not merged but they're definitely working more closely. And I think the responsibility of reporting back into the board level gain is not just, it's just an IT project. Oh, by the way, we've got a security project. It's the same project. And I think that's again, points to this convergence of networking and security. >> Yeah. The silos got to be broken down. That's been a theme that's been more highlighted more than ever the benefits and the consequences of doing it or not doing it are clear to people especially at all levels of the corporation and tech. That brings up my favorite conversation. I always ask you whenever you're back on theCUBE giving me an update on what's going on with Fortinet I got to ask you how it's going with data, because data again is the consistent theme we always talk about, how we're exposing that data, how we're protecting that data, the role of data as people continue to get more data and figure out how to use machine learning how to use AI, how to democratize it all kinds of things are happening around data. What's the latest in your opinion? >> Yeah, I think there's progress, but I always say there's progress on both sides. The cyber criminals, big AI networks and machine learning just to counter what the cyber security companies are doing. I think right now we're processing hundreds of billions of events on a weekly basis. We've got the largest install base of network security out there over 500,000 customers. And so processing that event, it's going well in that we're able to determine really quickly for specific threat vectors in specific geographies that this battle good. It's about a good file. It's about a good URL. It's a vulnerability that's associated with Stevia. So we're able to kind of do use machine learning and volume against a specific application to get a good result. The key going forward for us, and I think for the whole industry is using the AI to start to discover campaigns in the wild like the solar winds ones, which is going on without anybody knowing. And that takes a lot of compute, takes a lot of threat intelligence and the AI piece needs to understand the relationship between the different elements of threat vectors, the command and controls and everything else to get you that result. I do think a couple of things. One is the cybersecurity industry, and I've said this before on this broadcast is are not walking together as they should. And sharing this threat intelligence across the industry. As soon as they find something, I actually applaud Microsoft on the solar wind side, they got information out really quickly and did well. And so we did the same. I think the industry needs to do more of that more proactively. And then I do think that, again, that I see a lot of companies cybersecurity companies claim a lot of things without any evidence that it works whatsoever. >> The world's got to call them out the consequences of not having, things work as they're advertised and or sharing them, your point about sharing. There should be some recognition for folks that are actually being fast on the sharing side. It's not like... We need our own militia against the bad guys. That's what's kind of going on here. So great stuff. I got to get your thoughts on the edge real quick. I know we talked about it briefly. You broke it down to three categories device users, network, and then apps in the cloud. The hottest topic on our recent CUBE on cloud editorial virtual event we had was the edge. And edge being industrial edge. And also, just the edge of the network with humans and users and devices. How are you seeing the current situation out there? A lot of hype, obviously the reality of that, that we're in a distributed network, the internet and the web and the cloud cloud natives coming. What's Fortinet's thoughts? What's your thoughts on how the edge is evolving and what people should pay attention to when they look at as they're architecturally planning for building out and managing and securing the edge? >> Given this a zero trust conversation on users and devices and given that people are familiar with the cloud and how they're going to use cloud. I think the network is becoming a really important very important area. And some people say, "Oh, don't worry about the network, just go to the cloud." The network is very important in providing that digital experience, but what's happening with the network is it's being stretched. It's being extended into factories. It's opening up on the winning side. You've got people now working from home. You've got that edge that used to be just the data center edge is now CloudEdge and SAS edge. And so you have to pay close attention to those edges. Now what you can't do is say, "Oh, I know we've got all those edges there. Let me overlay some security on each edge," because it's going to be different the way you deploy that in on a wifi device versus a CloudEdge. And so what you need to look towards is convergence of a capability either of the CloudEdge or the WAN edge or the LTE edge, it's got to be converged networking, and security. Otherwise it's too operationally inefficient, too complex to do. And so I think this is a really important subject and area for customers because as I said at the beginning, it provides that digital, we acquired a company called (indistinct) a few months ago, which actually focuses on the digital experience monitoring marketplace. What are users actually going through in terms of availability and quality and performance all the way from their device, all the way back into the application? I think that's very important. And the network edges have to be secured, where you can only do it through a converged solution. >> Yeah, that's a great point Architecturally, you might have a good technology or product look on paper but the complexity is the vulnerability. That's a really, really great point. John always great to have you on. Thanks for coming on, sharing the update. Before we end, I'll give you a quick minute to plug the news you had. Quickly put a plug in for the release you guys just put out around the new FortiOS 7.0 the features. What's the most important point about that release? Share, take a minute to explain. >> Yeah. FortiOS 7.0 is our big release our operating system is big news because it allows us FortiOS to sit at any edge across the network, whether it would be the one edge CloudEdge, data center edge. We've extended it into the CloudEdge with SASE in this release. We're also bringing in zero trust network access capabilities but overall it includes 300 features across the network, Endpoint in cloud. So a very important release for us and our customers and partners. >> John, great to have you on theCUBE again and get the news. You guys doing a great job, congratulations on your earnings but more importantly, congratulations on the product success and how you guys are thinking about it as a platform. That's what customers want. And you guys are continuing to do a great job there and congratulations from the news. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks Jim. >> Again, John Furrier here inside theCUBE for CUBE Conversation getting the update on Fortinet and cybersecurity. Look for our cybersecurity coverage on SiliconANGLE.com. And of course, theCUBE's coverage continuing to talk to the thought leaders and the people making things happen, securing our networks and our cloud and deploying cloud native applications. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation everyone welcome to this cube conversation here in the cubes Palo Alto Studios we're here with the quarantine crew I'm John for your host we've got a great guest John Madison CMO an EVP of products of Fortinet and today more than ever in this changing landscape accelerating faster and faster certainly as this covin 19 crisis has forced business to realize a lot of the at scale problems are at hand and a lot of things are exposed in terms of problems and opportunities you have to take care of one of them security John thanks for coming on cube and looking forward to chatting about your recent event you had this week and also the updates at Florida thanks for joining me yeah it's great to be here John so more than ever the innovation strategies are not just talking points anymore in board meetings or companies there's they actually have to come out of this pandemic and operate through it with real innovation with actionable outcomes they've got to get their house in order you're seeing projects really focusing in on the at scale problems which is essentially keep the network's run and keep the sick the security fabric in place this is critical path stuff but the innovation coming out of it has to be a growth play for companies and this has been a big thing so you guys are in the middle of it we've chatted about all the four to guard stuff and all this you're seeing all the traffic you're seeing all the all the impact this work at home has forced companies to not only deal to new realities but it's exposed some things they need to double down on and things they need to either get rid of or fix fast what's your take on all this yeah you know I think it took a lot of people by surprise and the first thing I would like to do is you know spank our employees our customers and partners for the work they've done in the last six to seven weeks now what was happening was a lot of customers had built their work from home programs around a certain percentage 5% 10% 15% and that's what they scaled it for then all of a sudden you know everybody had to work from home and so you went from maybe a thousand people to 10,000 or 5,000 to 50,000 they had to scale very quickly because this had to be implemented in hours and days not weeks and months luckily our systems are able to gaile very quickly we can scale using a security processing units which offload the CPU and allow a lot of users simultaneously to access through VPN SSL VPN IPSec VPN and then we have an implementation at home ranging from a very simple Microsoft Wyant all the way to our clients all the way to even off Buda gate firewalls at home so we really did work very hard to make sure that our customers could maintain their business proposition during these times you know I want to get those work at home and I think it's a little big Sdn story and you guys have been on for a long time I mean we've talked with your you and your folks many times around st Wynn and what it means to to have that in place but this work at home those numbers are off the charts strange and this is disruption this was an unforeseen disruption it's not like a hurricane or flood this is real and we've also talked with you guys and your team around the endpoint you know the edge of the network that's the explosion of the billions of edges this is just an industry kind of inside baseball conversation and then also the immersion of the lifestyle we now live in so you have a world where it was inside baseball for this industry now every company and everyone's feeling it this is a huge issue I'm at home I got to protect myself I got data I gotta have a VPN I mean this is a reality that just wasn't seen I mean what do you guys are what are you guys doing in this area well I think it changes that this long-term architect and so you know the past we talked about there being millions of edges and people go how many billions of edges and what's happened is if you're working from home that's an edge and so the long term architecture means that companies need to take care of where their network edges are now the SEM at home they had them at the branch office they have them at the end of prize and the data center in the cloud then we need to decide know where to apply the security is it at the endpoint is it at the edges is the data center or bout an S T one is absolutely essential because every edge you'll have whether that were home now whether it be in your data center or eCampus on the cloud needs that st-1 technology and make sure you can guide the applications in a secure manner what's interesting is I actually deployed st-1 in my home here I've got two ISP connections one week I'm casting off with AT&T now that may be overkill right now for most people about putting st-1 in their homes but I think long-term homes are gonna be part of the enterprise network it's just another eight take a minute to explain the SD win I would call it the this is a mill especially this is not your grandfather's st win I mean it's changed st when is the internet I mean basically at home what does that mean if users don't know care what the products are at the end of the day they're working at home so kind of SD win has taken on a new broader scope if you will it's not just the classic SD win or is it can you take us through I mean and this is a category that's becoming much broader what's your what's your nails is there yeah again I'm not saying that you know consumers are gonna be putting SD wine in the homes right now but if I'm an executive and I rely on my communication out there are lots of meetings during the day work from home I want it to be as reliable as possible so if my one is pee goes down and I can't get on the internet that's an issue if I have to ISPs I have much higher availability but more importantly us you and I can guide the applications where I want when they want I can make sure you know my normal home traffic goes off certain direction the certain on a VLAN and segmentation policy whereas my war can be completely set out so again I you know I think SDRAM technology is important for the home long term is important for the branch for the enterprise and the data center and Earls St ones built into all up all our forty gates have sp1 you just switch it on we think it's a four essential technology going forward to drive that cloud on-ramp real quick follow-up on that for the folks in the enterprise I see the enterprise will make it easier for their customers their users who are at home so it feels consumer II invisible if you will I think that's the short-term what's what are what are you seeing your customers and prospective customers thinking when they come back or as they operate now in this new reality when they say you know what we really miss forecasted this now they have to get back to business what are they gonna do do they do more sta on I mean what's the architecture how does that get done what's the conversation like you know as this evolved for the next it's gonna slowly open up it still it's going to be a new reality for at least 12 months what's the conversation with the customer right now when it comes to going in and taking care of this so it doesn't happen again yeah what I'm doing actually actually what I'm doing a lot of virtual ABC's obviously we usually have 200 our customers that come to our corporate quarters or executive briefings and I'm doing actually more virtually and a lot of the opening conversations is they don't think they're gonna go completely Hunter's under percent back to where they were there's always going to be now a fraction of work-from-home people they may move around some of their physical location so as I said the ST when is that piece on the edge whether it be your home ranch campus or data centers gonna be there to guide the applications guide the users and devices to the right applications of wherever they may be as it could be in the cloud of communion data center it could be anywhere and then the key conversation thereafter for customers long-term architecture wise is where do I apply my security stack and the security spat consists of basic things like antivirus all right yes more detection capabilities even even response to Isis given that stack how much do I put in the edge how much do I put in my endpoint how much do I put my branch how much I put in my campus data center and cloud and then how do I maintain a policy a single policy across all of those and then now and again maybe I have to move that stack cross so that's going to be the key long term architecture question for enterprises as they move to a slightly different composition of workforce in different locations is hey I've got to make sure every edge that I have I identify and I secure when SP ran and then how do I apply the security stack cross all the diff tell great insight thanks for sharing that I want to get your take on now speaking of working at home you're also the CMO as well as the EVP of products which is a unique job because you can talk about any think when the cube we love it you had an event accelerate 2020 the folks watching go to the hashtag on Twitter hashtag accelerate 20 that's the hash tag you'll see a lot of the the pictures of the slides and some commentary I was laying down some tweets all the analysts were as well what are some of the highlights for you is a great presentation by the CEO you gave a talk and there's a lot of breakouts you had to do a digital event because you couldn't hold the physical event so you kind of had a shelter-in-place kind of and how did it go and what are some of the highlights yeah on the one side I was a bit sad you know we had or what we call accelerates arrange for this year in Barcelona and New York Mexico and San Jose we had to cancel war for them and I'm very quickly spin up a digital event a virtual event and you know we end up there's some initial targets around you know you know each of our physical events we get between two and three thousand and so we're thinking you know if we got to ten thousand this would be great we actually ended up with thirty thirty-two thousand or something like that registered and actually the percentage that showed off was even higher so we had over 20,000 people actually come online and go through our keynotes we built it so you go through the keynotes then you can go off to the painting what we call the breakouts for more detail we did verticals oh it did more technology sessions and so it's great and you know we tried our best to answer the questions online because these things are on demand we had three we had one for the u.s. one premiere and won't write back and so there was times but to get that sort of exposure to me is amazing twenty thousand people on there listening and it connects into another subject which is education and fun yet for some time as invested I would say you know my CEO says but I'll invest a bit more in education versus the marketing advertising budget now go okay okay that's that hey we'll work on that but education for us we announced a few weeks ago that education is now training is free for customers for everybody and we'd also been you know leading the way by providing free training for our partners now it's completely free for everybody we have something called the network security expert which goes from one to eight one and two of that are actually open to the public right now and if I go to the end of last year we had about two to three thousand people maybe a week come on and do the training obviously majority doing the NSC one courses you get further through to eight it's more technical last week we had over eighty thousand people we just think about those numbers incredible because people you know having more time let's do the training and finding is as they're doing this training going up the stack more quickly and they're able to implement their tools more quickly so training for us is just exploded off the map and I and there's a new reality of all the unemployment and also people are at home and there's a lot of job about the skill gap before in another cube conversation it's it's more apparent than ever and why not make it free give people some hope give them some tools to be successful there's demand yes and it's not you know it's not just them you know IT professionals are Ennis e1 is a foundational course and you'll see kids and students and universities doing it and so Ben Mars granddad's dad's doing it so we we're getting all sorts of comments and social media about the training you know our foundation great stuff has a great we'll put a plug on that when should we get that amplified for its really good stuff I got to ask you about the event one of the things I really like about the presentation was from your CEO and you gave one as well was the clarity around the vision of security and a couple of things that were notable to me was the confluence of the collision between networking and security and at the intersection of those two forces you have an accelerated integrated policy dynamic to me this is the heart of DevOps of what used to be in cloud being kind of applied to security you have data you got all kinds of new things emerging new patterns new signals that's security so you got to be you got to be fast you got to identify things so you guys are in this business that's one force and the other one was the billions of edges and this idea that there's no perimeter so it's everything's immersive so illustrate some points of validation on that from your standpoint is that how you guys are seeing it unfold in the future is that happening now can you give us a feeling for whether where we are and that those those kind of paradigms yeah good point so I think it's been happening it's happening now has been happening the future you know if you look at networking and our CEO Enzi talked about this and that networking hasn't really cheer outing and switching we go back to 2000 we had 100 mega under megabit now you have formed a gigabit but the basic function we haven't really changed that much securities different we've gone from a firewall and we add VPN then we at next-gen firewall then we had SSL inspection now we've added sd1 and so this collisions kind of an equal in that you know networking's sped ahead and firewalling is stayed behind because it's just got too many applications on that so the basic principle premise of the company of putting net is to build and bring that together so it's best of all accelerate the basic security network security functions so you can consolidate multiple functions on one system and then bring networking and security together a really good example of security where or nexium firewall where you can accelerate and so our security processing units and my analogy simple analogy is GPUs inside games where their GPU offloads CPU to allow rendering to happen very quick it's the same for us RSP use way of a network SPU and we have a Content SPU which all flows the CPU to allow a security and networking do it be accelerated work now coming to your second point about the perimeter I I'm not quite sure whether the perimeters disappear and the reason I say that is customer still goes they have firewalls on the front of the networks they have endpoint protection they have protection in the cloud so it's not that the perimeters disappeared it's just but much larger and so now the perimeters sitting across all your infrastructure your endpoints your in factories you got IOT devices you've got workloads in different powered and that means you need to look very carefully at those and give visibility initially and then apply the control that control maybe it's a ten-point security it may be SD mine at the edge it may be a compliance template in the cloud but you need visibility of all those edges which have been created with the perimeters reading across the image it's interesting you bring up a good point we always have kind of debates over beers on this on this topic you know the old model was mote you know get the castle and the gate but here the perimeter of the edge if you believe there's an edge and I do believe you find it perfectly the edge is a perimeter it's an endpoint right so it's a door into the internet so are the network so is the perimeter just an end adorn there's more doors right so or service yeah just think about it the castle would did multiple doors is the back everyone's the door there's this dozle someday and you have to define those H's and have visibility of them and that's why things like network access control know for you know zero trust network access is really important making sure you kind of look at the edge inside your way and so your data center and then it's like you powd what workloads are spinning off and what's the configuration and what's there what's from a data perspective right your recommendation and I'm a customer looking at my network I got compute I got edge devices and users I realized there's a billions of edges on my network now and the realities hit me I wasn't really being proactive on investing what do I do what's the PlayBook for me as I start to rethink that and what do I put into place how do I get going now I got to rethink it I now recognize I got full validation I got to manage this I got to do something what's your recommendation to me if I'm a customer the key to me is and I've had this conversation now for the last five years and it's getting louder and louder and that is I suppose I spend a lot of money on point solution point but even end point may have five point products on there and so they're getting to the conclusion it's just too hard to manage I can't find all the right people I get so many alerts from so many security systems I can't work out what's going on and the conversation now is how do I deploy a platform we call it the security fabric now I don't deploy that fabric across my network I'm not saying you should go from 30 vendors to one vendor that would be nice of course but I what I'm saying as you go from 30 vendors down to maybe five or six platform the platform's perform multiple functions it could be they're out there you attach a platform a designer platform just birth protector or a particular organization or part of the network and so the platform allows you then to build automation and the automation allows you to see things more quickly and react to things more quickly and do things without manual intervention the platform approach it's absolutely starting to resonate yes you've still got very very large customers who put everything into segments of a C's Exedra book most customers now moving towards a yeah I think you know as you see and again back to that collision with the end of the intersection we have integrated policies if you're gonna do any integration which is the data problem so we talk about all the time to a lot of different tools can create silos and there's a use case for that but also creates problematic situations I mean a platform gives you a much more robust capability to be adaptive to be real time to program and automate yeah it's it's it's an issue if you've got 30 vendors and just be honest it's also an issue in the industry so I mean networking the story kind of worked out how to work together you can use the same different vendor switches and routers and they roughly work together with cybersecurity they've all been deal you know built totally separately not to even work and that's why you've got these multiple layers you've got a product the security problem then this got its own analytics engine and manager then you've got a manager of managers and an analyzer of analyzers and the sim system and then a saw I mean just goes on it makes it so complex for people and that's why I think they look into something a bit more simplified but most importantly the platform must be friendly from a consumption model you must be able to do an appliance where you need to do virtual machine SAS cloud native container whatever it may be because that network has changed in those ages as those edges move you've got them to have a platform that adaptable to the consumption model require you know I had a great cartridge with Phil Quaid you see your seaso over there and we were chatting around you know this idea of I won't say customization but there's no one turnkey monolithic application it seems to these platforms tend to be enabling where the seaso trend is to have teams building ok and and and almost a customized but building software to automate to solve their use case for their outcome so enabling that is a trend we're seeing so I think you guys are on the right track there any comment on your take on this enabling platform is that something that you guys are seeing that CSIS is looking at more in-house development more use case focus because they have the data they got real-time they need to be building on a platform not told what they could do yeah I think you've always had this this network team trying to build things fast and open and the security team trying to post things down and make it more secure you know it becomes even more problematic if you kind of go to the cloud where you've got pockets a developer's kind of thing do things in the DevOps way really as fast as possible and sometimes the controls are not put in place in fact no the big as I said the biggest issue for the cloud is not so much you know malware it it's more about miss configuration that's why you're seeing the big breaches and that's more of a customer thing to do and so I think what the seaso is trying to do is make sure they apply the controls appropriately and again their job has become much harder now we've got all the multitude of endpoints that they didn't have before they've got now there when that's not just the closed MPLS network is old off different types of broadband 5 G's coming towards the end of this year next year as well the data centers may have decreased a bit but they've still got datacenter capacity and they're probably got 5 or 6 hours and 20 different SAS applications that put a deal with and they've got to deal with developers in there so it's a harder job for them and they need to melt or add those tools but come back to that single point of management great stuff John Madison CMO EVP great insight there it's almost a master class right there you laid it all out on what's going on a final question any change is what any other news updates on the four net front I know you guys got some answer I didn't see the breakouts of the session I had something else going on I think I've been walking dog and do some other things but you know being at home and to take care of things what's new what's what's out that people might have missed that's coming out of for today you're telling me you didn't have 60 hour a breakout on dedicated I don't think yeah we've you know we've have a lot going on you know we have a big R&D team here in North America and Canada and with a lot of products coming out this time of the year we bring out our 40 OS network operating system with 6.4 over 300 new features inside there including new orchestration systems for sp1 and then also we actually launched on network processor seven and the board gate already 200 F powered by four network processor sevens it's some system out there and provide over 800 gigs of fire or capacities but in bill V explain acceleration they can do things like elephant flows huge flows of data so there's always there's always new products coming out of 14 it sure those are the two big ones for this quarter you guys certainly are great interviews to talk to great a lot of expertise there final final question you know everyone every company's got their culture Moore's laws cadence of Moore's laws Intel faster cheaper smaller what's the for Annette culture if you had to kind of boil it down what's it you guys are always pushing great products out there all high quality I'll see security you got to be buttoned up and have good ops and controls but you still need to push the envelope and have stadia what's the culture if you had to kind of boil the culture down for Porter net what would it be that's always an interesting question and so the company's been going since 2000 okay the founders are still there NZ's CEO and Michael Z's the CTO and I think that one of the philosophies is that listen to the customer very closely because you can get distracted by shiny objects all over the place I want to go and do this oh yeah let's build this what about this and in the end the customer and and what they want may get lost and so we listen very closely we use you know we have a very high content of technology people who can translate the customer use case into what we should build and so I think that's the culture we have and maintain that so we're very close to our customers we've been building very quickly for them make sure it works it needs tweaking then we'll look at it again a very very customer driven always great to hear from the founders you guys had a great event accelerate 20 that's the hashtag some great highlights on Twitter some commentary there and of course go to Ford a net site to check out the replays Sean man so thanks for taking the time to share your insights here on the cube conversation I really appreciate it thank you okay it's cube concert here in Palo Alto we're bringing you all the interviews during this time we have our quarantine crew the cube is virtual we'll do whatever it takes to get the interviews out there and get the stories out there and the people behind the tech making it happen I'm John Fourier thanks for watching [Music]

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a cute conversation. >>Hi, I'm Stu middleman and welcome to a cube conversation. I'm coming to you from the cubes East coast studio offices and joining me is one of our cube alums from the earliest cube event that we ever did. He's also one of our guests hosts a long time friend of the program. Someone I've known for a long time. John Troyer, the chief reckoner at tech reckoning. John, so good to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Hey Steve. Thanks for having me on dialing in here from sunny half moon Bay, California. >>All right, well John, you know, first of all it's been good to talk to you a bunch. You know, normally, uh, we would be seeing you at a number of the conferences of course, with today's global pandemic. Uh, it stopped us seeing in person, but I tell you a month ago you held the influencer marketing council and it was one of those weeks where it was just kind of everything's changing. The world is upside down. And it was just so nice to talk to, you know, so many of our peers in the community, the people that we've known for a long time and just, you know, commiserate a little bit at first and then, you know, all share as to how we're moving forward and what we're doing. So, you know, bring us up to speed as to, you know, what you're seeing out there in the community. >>Sure, sure. Well, let's do, I mean that's one of the ironies of, of the place we're at here, right? We are learning that connection is so important. We know it is, but we tend to lump it in together with conferences and with sales calls and seminars, webinars, and we're learning that this kind of connection, these relationships are what we as humans are built on. And also what business is built on businesses, built of relationships. So I work a lot with, uh, companies doing work with their practitioner, communities with advocacy, customer advocacy, partner, advocacy with influencers outside their ecosystem. These kinds of relationship based ways to get attention in ways to fill the, you know, the funnel and um, you know, they've really kind of been both pulled apart and, and, and put center stage on this current with our current pandemic. >>Yeah. It's interesting cause you think about like, you know, what was online before and there and a lot of communities you think about, you know, the forums there, the way you communicate, um, you know, lots of online things. Sure. Meetups are a huge part of what goes on and those big events that you get together. So is there anything you've seen that's drastically changed obviously from an event standpoint, you know, w we'll spend some time talking about virtual events, uh, and the like, but you know, influencer groups, uh, the, you know, kind of V experts and MVPs of the world. Uh, you know, has there been any immediate impact on those groups? >>Well, sure. I mean they're all, a lot of times there are, like you said, there is a component of offline as well as online to these programs. I mean going back to the vendor side, the org charts are, are always confused in the first place. Does this belong in digital? Does this belong somewhere else? But the best programs always have face to face meetings. And of course those are off the table now. So that, that really of levels the playing field in a certain way, you still have people at home, the people who are working are working harder than ever. A lot of layoffs in the industry. So those people are kind of, uh, either, you know, trying to cope. Some of them are, have time for more creative outlets. So we're seeing a resurgence in people making content and discussions in online forums and online discussion. So that's really interesting. A lot of >>John John sourdough bread, you forgot the sourdough bread. >>Bacon, sourdough bread. I made some this morning. It was pretty good. You know, the nice thing is it levels the playing field, right? Whether you're in Croatia or Cleveland or, or you know, the middle of Silicon Valley, you can start to attend these things. I mean, I know some folks who were saying, you know, I was hampered by attending meetups because I, you know, I have a family or a childcare, I job duties and now they're able to attend virtually. So even if they, even if it's in a different city. So in some ways this is a great leveler. This, this allows us everyone to participate to the level of their interest and their energy, you know, but there are downsides. >>Yeah, no, absolutely. One of the questions, they were always the people like, Oh, I'm feeling left out because I'm not at that event. Well, you know, absolutely. You mentioned, you know, the home strains are there, you know, if you had a family situation that might've kept you from traveling, well, chances are you probably have some family things that might not free you up to be able to spend, you know, multiple hours doing things. But it shifts it and it does level the playing field. So, right. You know, whether I'm sitting in Bangalore, India, you know, somewhere in Croatia or you know, in Silicon Valley, uh, they're all sitting at home right now. And you know, all looking through their webcams and talking through the internet. So um, sounds like right, they're there. Um, I'm curious if you think there will be lessons learned and it is early days of course, but one of the questions we say is, you know, what will we have the takeaway from there and what will be permanent? Um, when we talk about say communities and how we engage with them. >>Well the whole kind of community developer relations space is, is always a little bit, uh, it's a little bit aside from revenue producing, right? So it's not quite straight marketing, it's not really revenue producing. So there's always a tension there in the, in the tech community, the folks that are connected to their business, the folks that are, have developed relationships and have that already created asset of these, of these existing relationships are doing well, especially if they're connected back to their business. Cause this is a time to make those connections to retrench. My family is talking a lot more and your ecosystem, your tech families should be talking a lot more of your customers and partners. So those folks are doing well. We've also seen a lot of layoffs because these are seen in some companies as not essential or as non. Yeah, just nonproductive. And if I got cut something, you know, the community team goes, if it's not strategically connected to uh, you know, back to back to the business. So I think one of the lessons is those relationships in a time like this are, are strategically important. And I mean, we can drill down on that, but I think that's going to be one of the takeaways that the companies that have built these networks and built their strong ecosystems are going to come out. The winners here, I >>mean, John, you brought up a big point here as we speak right now. I think the number in the U S is over the last five weeks, it's about 30 million people that are out of a job. Those are staggering numbers. I mean, it had been decades, you know, there was never a million of new unemployed here in 30 million. Just, you know, does boggle the mind. Um, then you have companies like Amazon that if I hired 170,000 people, and it's not just the manufacturing, uh, you know, in the, uh, and the distribution of things. I've seen people get hired by AWS, uh, during these times, but it is, uh, you know, it feels that there's a little bit of thawing on some of the movement of some people that had jobs frozen a month ago now seem that they are now moving through the system again there. But absolutely the financial ripples of what's happening here are something that is going to be with us for many quarters going forward. >>Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the other lessons that we'll learn is the nature of events, right? We have a, we were in event overload. The cube is a witness to that. You're on the road many, many weeks a year. In fact, you have to, you have to clone yourself. You're, you're, there's so many. You have multiple teams out on the road during, during conference season, and a lot of people were saying, there's too much. I can't get this. There's just too many events. I can't go to the mall, I can't even pay attention to them. Well now we're trying to take all those events and school in, squirt them through the tiny pinhole of a digital experience and a Twitter and Facebook and video like this. You had a multichannel, very rich interactive experience. You could get somebody to commit and get away from their, uh, their house for a few days and pay attention. We're beginning, I think to rethink what this, how this marketing playbook works, right? The people event is from is, has many different roles. >>Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. Donna. I had been asking for a few years to dial down some of my travel. I didn't ask for it to go to zero. Um, so be careful what you wish for out there, but you know, good. You know, I'm glad you brought up the, you know, virtual events, digital events, whatever you want to call them. Um, we know as an industry that there is work to be done to make them better. Uh, you were just an interruption or a mouse. Click away from being pulled away, um, from this online environment. And everyone is learning as we go. We've been spending a lot of time working with companies, trying to learn lessons, trying to, you know, ask the questions about what is critically important and you know, engagement. That's tough. You know, we know community John is something that isn't that you just stand it up. It is constant care and feeding and when events going on community's a piece of that thing. Um, and you know, how do we maintain that in a virtual world? So anything you've seen that you like or things that you'd like to see more when it comes to, you know, how do we make things engaging and how do you make people feel welcomed and part of it rather than just I'm watching something on the web and streaming content at me. >>I think there's a few things. One is we're blowing the digital experience apart right there. There are multiple jobs to be done. There are multiple audiences. I went to a big conference today. I'm not a practitioner for this particular tech company. I'm not interested in all the breakouts. I am interested in the keynotes and I would be interested in some networking. So a large part of kind of community development relationship, all these, this relationship building happens during and after their dinners and receptions and things like that. So you can replace that and it doesn't have to be, you know, right after the big keynote. So we're, we're breaking these things apart. I see people, I've talked to different vendors, breaking big events into a series of smaller events, breaking it into audiences and executive series of events or practitioner series of events. And then I think frankly, the produced thing, the produce component of the show, uh, can, can use an upgrade to, I mean, I, I'm looking at the way our TV talk shows have adapted over the last month or two and they all started off with like a crappy web cam or, or an iPhone. >>And now that many of them are, have a very interesting format that have adapted to their hosts and their guests being both at home and separate. So you know that there's a, there's a psychological through comfort level and through line to having an anchor to having a host, things like that that maybe isn't necessary when you're there, your 5,000 people in an auditorium and clapping. It's just a different feeling. >>So John, are we calling to see, you know, which executive has a child that can help with some hand drawn, uh, slides and things that they can put up there? Uh, you never know. That'd be interesting. >>Many people have commented that they like the evening news now when the, when the kids and the wife and the dog and the, and the husband interrupt, right? It's, it's humanizing. And frankly that's my, that's my business. And that's what I help companies do is, is humanize themselves and, and, and the, you know, you can sprinkle a little bit in. I mean, we'll get tired of the kids hand drawn stuff, you know, if we're in, if we're at stay at home for too many more months. >>Yeah. You know, I kind of want our enterprise sales. Is that the message we want going through when we want you to do, you know, a subscription that will be millions of dollars a year, um, that there's a hand drawn thing. So a little bit of a gap between the enterprise, uh, and uh, you know what they might say, but you bring up a really good point, right John, that, that experience, uh, personalizing it absolutely is something that can be done. Uh, you know, one of the things we've been talking to all our of our clients about is you don't just take a physical event and lifted onto some website and think that, you know, you're going to have some success, that you need to think about that audience, focus on what they do. You know, we're always of course focusing on the cube is, you know, we want really good con, uh, content and you know, real conversations with people and, you know, you brought up, right, that that interaction that I get at shows. How much can I make people feel that I've talked to people. Um, you should be able to get more, you know, executive access. Uh, and if you're a customer, you know, I, I've heard some good things. It's like, Hey, you want to break out and talk to an se, you know, live on a chat. The platforms can enable that sort of thing. So you know, you to be able to talk, you want to be able to make it personal down to small groups or even individuals. Um, and there is the opportunity to do that. >>Yeah. A lot of times people talk about the hallway track. Yeah. You gotta realize the hallway track is not the same for everybody. If you have gone to the same conference for 10 years and you know a lot of the people and see familiar faces, the hallway track is great. You run into people, Oh, Hey, Oh, Hey, uh, and that's when the real work gets done. But if you are a newcomer to an ecosystem, if you are a new prospect coming in here, uh, even if I provided you the same virtual hallway track, it's, it's not gonna work for you. So again, we come back to the companies that have established these relationships, who have built these, uh, you know, have these onboarding experiences now are going to be the winners. If you just have a bunch of strangers, I mean, you might as well just do an hour webinar and see who you can spam, you know, get your, get your internal sales team to call everybody the next day. Right. >>Uh, I'm, I'm, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking of, you know, the blogger lounge at VM world where, you know, you and I go and we know lots of people, but we also meet lots of new people because they show up and everybody is like, Hey, you need to meet all of these other people. So you're right. There's ways to be able to take those influencers and those people to help concierge, help make connections, um, and do those things >>well. A real core with tips though, single track things work really well for those scale events because you can just drop in, you know exactly what's live multi-track, very much harder to figure out what's going on live. I know it's live. The other thing I've seen from a lot of, uh, tech community events is an accompanying Slack with prerecorded talks and with the speaker then in different Slack channels, the speakers there, you can chit chat while it's live. So if Slack or any kind of chat, uh, but Slack, you know, if you're already in this community Slack, that works really well. So this kind of dual multichannel live interaction I think can be one of the things that works right away. >>Yeah, absolutely. You know, little little plug that similar to what we'll have for dr Tom. So on the content tracks, uh, you know, most of them I believe will be, you know, recorded ahead of time. So those experts, you'll actually be able to ask questions, there'll be interacting in real time, uh, you know, whether you'd like it threaded or unthreaded. There's, there's options that we're choosing on that kind of stuff. All right. Uh, John, want to give you the final word? Uh, you know, obviously we're, we're kind of in the middle of things here. You know, it feels like we're in the new abnormal if it were, but you know, right here at the end of April, just about into may, some States are opening up. We don't know when we'll be able to go from 10 people to 25 to 50 or more people. So, you know, try trying to understand some of those pieces. What are you looking for going forward? Uh, any last tips you want to give the community? >>Well, I think, I think we're in, I think we're in kind of in here for a long haul. It's at least before we bring 80,000 a hundred thousand people together from all over the world. So you know, the old saw is, you know, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The best, the second best time is today. You, you, you figure out what your metrics are, they're not going to be the same as the old metrics. You figure out what your, your audiences are looking for, what's in it for them. Do they want training? Do they want networking? And you start to deliver it to them. And you, and you iterate. None of us look community people and, and, and developer relations people aren't experts at digital marketing event. People aren't experts at digital marketing. In fact, they, all, the digital marketing people aren't experts at digital marketing in this context. So we're all learning and, and you know, it's gonna there's going to be a lot of money spent and we'll figure it out eventually. You know, I think over the course of this year, >>yeah, absolutely. It's the learning mindset is what we all need. Uh, the, the things that have, you know, brought my spirits up the most, are the communities engaging, uh, whether it's working on the pandemic or just, you know, sharing what they've seen, what they'd like to do better. Uh, that collaboration has been, uh, something really good to see. Alright, John Troyer great to see you as always, uh, look forward to, uh, talking much more with you in the future. And, uh, thanks again. Thanks for having me. Students stay safe. Alright, I'm Stu Miniman. Thanks as always for joining us and watching the queue.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hey welcome back everybody, Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're in our Palo Alto Studios today, having a Cube Conversation, you know, with the COVID situation going on we've had to change our business and go pretty much 100% digital. And as part of that process, we wanted to reach out to our community, and talk to some of the leaders out there, because I think leadership in troubling times is even more amplified in it's importance. So we're excited to be joined today by two leaders in our community. First one being John Chambers, a very familiar face from many, many years at Cisco, who's now the founder and CEO of JC2 Ventures. John, great to see you. >> Jeff, it's a pleasure to be with you again. >> Absolutely. And joining him is Umesh Sachdev, he's the co-founder and CEO of Uniphore. First time on theCUBE, Umesh, great to meet you. >> Jeff, thank you for having me, it's great to be with you. >> You as well, and I had one of your great people on the other day, talking about CX, and I think CX is the whole solution. Why did Uber beat cabs, do you want to stand on a corner and raise your hand in the rain? Or do you want to know when the guy's going to come pick you up, in just a couple minutes? So anyway, welcome. So let's jump into it. John, one of your things, that you talked about last time we talked, I think it was in October, wow how the world has changed. >> Yes. >> Is about having a playbook, and really, you know, kind of thinking about what you want to do before it's time to actually do it, and having some type of a script, and some type of direction, and some type of structure, as to how you respond to situations. Well there's nothing like a disaster to really fire off, you know, the need to shift gears, and go to kind of into a playbook mode. So I wonder if you could share with the viewers, kind of what is your playbook, you've been through a couple of these bumps. Not necessarily like COVID-19, but you've seen a couple bumps over your career. >> So it's my pleasure Jeff. What I'll do is kind of outline how I believe you use an innovation playbook on everything from acquisitions, to digitizing a company, to dealing with crisis. Let's focus on the playbook for crisis. You are right, and I'm not talking about my age, (John laughing) but this is my sixth financial crisis, and been through the late 1990s with the Asian financial crisis, came out of it even stronger at Cisco. Like everybody else we got knocked down in the 2001 tech bubble, came back from it even stronger. Then in 2008, 2009, Great Recession. We came through that one very, very strong, and we saw that one coming. It's my fourth major health crisis. Some of them turned out to be pretty small. I was in Mexico when the bird pandemic hit, with the President of Mexico, when we thought it was going to be terrible. We literally had to cancel the meetings that evening. That's why Cisco built the PLAR Presence. I was in Brazil for the issue with the Zika virus, that never really developed much, and the Olympics went on there, and I only saw one mosquito during the event. It bit me. But what I'm sharing with you is I've seen this movie again and again. And then, with supply chain, which not many people were talking about yet, supply chain crisis, like we saw in Japan with the Tsunami. What's happening this time is you're seeing all three at one time, and they're occurring even faster. So the playbook is pretty simple in crisis management, and then it would be fun to put Umesh on the spot and say how closely did you follow it? Did you agree with issues, or did you disagree, et cetera, on it. Now I won't mention, Umesh, that you've got a review coming up shortly from your board, so that should not affect your answer at all. But the first playbook is being realistic, how much was self-inflicted, how much was market. This one's largely market, but if you had problems before, you got to address them at the same time. The second thing is what are the five to seven things that are material, what you're going to do to lead through this crisis. That's everything from expense management, to cash preservation. It's about how do you interface to your employees, and how do you build on culture. It's about how do you interface to your customers as they change from their top priority being growth and innovation, to a top priority being cost savings, and the ability to really keep their current revenue streams from churning and moving. And it's about literally, how do make your big bets for what you want to look like as you move out of this market. Then it's how do you communicate that to your employees, to your shareholders, to your customers, to your partners. Painting the picture of what you look like as you come out. As basic as that sounds, that's what crisis management is all about. Don't hide, be visible, CEOs should take the role on implementing that playbook. Umesh to you, do you agree? And have fun with it a little bit, I like the give and take. >> I want to see the playbook, do you have it there, just below the camera? (Jeff laughing) >> I have it right here by my side. I will tell you, Jeff, in crisis times and difficult times like these, you count all the things that go right for you, you count your blessings. And one of the blessings that I have, as a CEO, is to have John Chambers as my mentor, by my side, sharing not just the learning that he had through the crisis, but talking through this, with me on a regular basis. I've read John's book more than a few times, I bet more than anybody in the world, I've read it over and over. And that, to me, is preparation going into this mode. One of the things that John has always taught me is when times get difficult, you get calmer than usual. It's one thing that when you're cruising on the freeway and you're asked to put the brakes, but it's quite another when you're in rocket ship, and accelerating, which is what my company situation was in the month of January. We were coming out of a year of 300% growth, we were driving towards another 300% growth, hiring tremendously, at a high pace. Winning customers at a high pace, and then this hit us. And so what I had to do, from a playbook perspective, is, you know, take a deep breath, and just for a couple of days, just slow down, and calmly look at the situation. My first few steps were, I reached out to 15 of our top customers, the CEOs, and give them calls, and said let's just talk about what you're seeing, and what we are observing in our business. We get a sense of where they are in their businesses. We had the benefit, my co-founder works out of Singapore, and runs our Asia business. We had the benefit of picking up the sign probably a month before everyone else did it in the U.S. I was with John in Australia, and I was telling John that "John, something unusual is happening, "a couple of our customers in these countries in Asia "are starting to tell us they would do the deal "a quarter later." And it's one thing when one of them says it, it's another when six of them say it together. And John obviously has seen this movie, he could connect the dots early. He told me to prepare, he told the rest of the portfolio companies that are in his investment group to start preparing. We then went to the playbook that John spoke of, being visible. For me, culture and communication take front seat. We have employees in ten different countries, we have offices, and very quickly, even before the governments mandated, we had all of them work, you know, go work from home, and be remote, because employee safety and health was the number one priority. We did our first virtual all-hands meeting on Zoom. We had about 240 people join in from around the world. And my job as CEO, usually our all-hands meeting were different functional leaders, different people in the group talk to the team about their initiatives. This all-hands was almost entirely run by me, addressing the whole company about what's going to be the situation from my lens, what have we learned. Be very factual. At the same time, communicating to the team that because of the fact that we raised our funding the last year, it was a good amount of money, we still have a lot of that in the bank, so we going to be very secure. At the same time, our customers are probably going to need us more than ever. Call centers are in more demand than ever, people can't walk up to a bank branch, they can't go up to a hospital without taking an appointment. So the first thing everyone is doing is trying to reach call centers. There aren't enough people, and anyways the work force that call centers have around the world, are 50% working from home, so the capacity has dropped. So our responsibility almost, is to step up, and have our AI and automation products available to as many call centers as we can. So as we are planning our own business continuity, and making sure every single employee is safe, the message to my team was we also have to be aggressive and making sure we are more out there, and more available, to our customers, that would also mean business growth for us. But first, and foremost is for us to be responsible citizens, and just make it available where it's needed. As we did that, I quickly went back to my leadership team, and again, the learning from John is usually it's more of a consensus driven approach, we go around the table, talk about a topic for a couple of hours, get the consensus, and move out of the room. My leadership meetings, they have become more frequent, we get together once a week, on video call with my executive leaders, and it's largely these days run by me. I broke down the team into five different war rooms, with different objectives. One of them we called it the preservation, we said one leader, supported by others will take the responsibility of making sure every single employee, their families, and our current customers, are addressed, taken care of. So we made somebody lead that group. Another group was made responsible for growth. Business needs to, you know, in a company that's growing at 300%, and we still have the opportunity, because call centers need us more than ever, we wanted to make sure we are responding to growth, and not just hunkering down, and, you know, ignoring the opportunity. So we had a second war room take care of the growth. And a third war room, lead by the head of finance, to look at all the financial scenarios, do the stress tests, and see if we are going to be ready for any eventuality that's going to come. Because, you know, we have a huge amount of people, who work at Uniphore around the world, and we wanted to make sure their well being is taken care of. So from being over communicative, to the team and customers, and being out there personally, to making sure we break down the teams. We have tremendous talent, and we let different people, set of people, run different set of priorities, and report back to me more frequently. And now, as we have settled into this rhythm, Jeff, you know, as we've been in, at least in the Bay area here, we've been shelter in place for about a month now. As we are in the rhythm, we are beginning to do virtual happy hours, every Thursday evening. Right after this call, I get together with my team with a glass of wine, and we get together, we talk every but work, and every employee, it's not divided by functions, or leadership, and we are getting the rhythm back into the organization. So we've gone and adjusted in the crisis, I would say very well. And the business is just humming along, as we had anticipated, going into this crisis. But I would say, if I didn't have John by my side, if I hadn't read his book, the number of times that I have, every plane ride we've done together, every place we've gone together, John has spoken about war stories. About the 2001, about 2008, and until you face the first one of your own, just like I did right now, you don't appreciate when John says leadership is lonely. But having him by our side makes it easier. >> Well I'm sure he's told you the Jack Welch story, right? That you've quoted before, John, where Jack told you that you're not really a good leader, yet, until you've been tested, right. So you go through some tough stuff, it's not that hard to lead on an upward to the right curve, it's when things get a little challenging that the real leadership shines through. >> Completely agree, and Jack said it the best, we were on our way to becoming the most valuable company in the world, he looked me in the eye and said "John, you have a very good company." And I knew he was about to give me a teaching moment, and I said "What does it take to have a great one?" He said a near death experience. And I thought I did that in '97, and some of the other management, and he said, "No, it's when you went through something "like we went through in 2001, "which many of our peers did die in." And we were knocked down really hard. When we came back from it, you get better. But what you see in Umesh is a very humble, young CEO. I have to remember he's only 34 years old, because his maturity is like he's 50, and he's seen it before. As you tell, he's like a sponge on learning, and he doesn't mind challenging. And what what he didn't say, in his humbleness, is they had the best month in March ever. And again, well over 300% versus the same quarter a year ago. So it shows you, if you're in the right spot, i.e. artificial intelligence, i.e. cost savings, i.e. customer relationship with their customers, how you can grow even during the tough times, and perhaps set a bold vision, based upon facts and a execution plan that very few companies will be able to deliver on today. So off to a great start, and you can see why I'm so honored and proud to be his strategic partner, and his coach. >> Well it's interesting, right, the human toll of this crisis is horrible, and there's a lot of people getting sick, and a lot of people are dying, and all the estimations are a lot more are going to die this month, as hopefully we get over the hump of some of these curves. So that aside, you know, we're here talking kind of more about the, kind of, the business of this thing. And it's really interesting kind of what a catalyst COVID has become, in terms of digital transformation. You know, we've been talking about new ways to work for years, and years, and years, and digital transformation, and all these kind of things. You mentioned the Cisco telepresence was out years, and decades ago. I mean I worked in Mitsubishi, we had a phone camera in 1986, I looked it up today, it was ridiculous, didn't work. But now, it's here, right. Now working from home is here. Umesh mentioned, you know, these huge call centers, now everybody's got to go home. Do they have infrastructure to go home? Do they have a place to work at home? Do they have support to go home? Teachers are now being forced, from K-12, and I know it's a hot topic for you, John, to teach from home. Teach on Zoom, with no time to prep, no time to really think it through. It's just like the kids aren't coming back, we got to learn it. You know I think this is such a transformational moment, and to your point, if this goes on for weeks, and weeks, and months, and months, which I think we all are in agreement that it will. I think you said, John, you know, many, many quarters. As people get new habits, and get into this new flow, I don't think they're going to go back back to the old ways. So I think it's a real, you know, kind of forcing function for digital transformation. And it's, you can't, you can't sit on the sidelines, cause your people can't come to the office anymore. >> So you've raised a number of questions, and I'll let Umesh handle the tough part of it. I will answer the easy part, which is I think this is the new normal. And I think it's here now, and the question is are you ready for it. And as you think about what we're really saying is the video sessions will become such an integral part of our daily lives, that we will not go back to having to do 90% of our work physically. Today alone I've done seven major group meetings, on Zoom, and Google Hangouts, and Cisco Webex. I've done six meetings with individuals, or the key CEOs of my portfolio. So that part is here to stay. Now what's going to be fascinating is does that also lead into digitization of our company, or do the companies make the mistake of saying I'm going to use this piece, because it's so obvious, and I get it, in terms of effectiveness, but I'm not going to change the other things in my normal work, in my normal business. This is why, unfortunately, I think you will see, we originally said, Jeff, you remember, 40% maybe as high as 45% of the Fortune 500 wouldn't exist in a decade. And perhaps 70% of the start-ups wouldn't exist in a decade, that are venture capital backed. I now think, unfortunately, you're going to see 20-35% of the start-ups not exist in 2 years, and I think it's going to shock you with the number of Fortune 500 companies that do not make this transition. So where you're leading this, that I completely agree with, is the ability to take this terrible event, with all of the issues, and again thank our healthcare workers for what they've been able to do to help so many people, and deal with the world the way it is. As my parents who are doctors taught me to do, not the way we wish it was. And then get your facts, prepare for the changes, and get ready for the future. The key would be how many companies do this. On the area Umesh has responsibility for, customer experience, I think you're going to see almost all companies focus on that. So it can be an example of perhaps how large companies learn to use the new technology, not just video capability, but AI, assistance for the agents, and then once they get the feel for it, just like we got the feel for these meetings, change their rhythm entirely. It was a dinner in New York, virtually, when we stopped, six weeks ago, traveling, that was supposed to be a bunch of board meetings, customer meetings, that was easy. But we were supposed to have a dinner with Shake Shack's CEO, and we were supposed to have him come out and show how he does cool innovation. We had a bunch of enterprise companies, and a bunch of media, and subject matter expertise, we ended up canceling it, and then we said why not do it virtually? And to your point, we did it in 24 different locations. Half the people, remember six weeks ago, had never even used Zoom. We had milk shakes, and hamburgers, and french fries delivered to their home. And it was one of the best two hour meetings I've seen. The future is this now. It's going to change dramatically, and Umesh, I think, is going to be at the front edge of how enterprise companies understand how their relationship with their customers is going to completely transform, using AI, conversational AI capability, speech recognition, et cetera. >> Yeah, I mean, Umesh, we haven't even really got into Uniphore, or what you guys are all about. But, you know, you're supporting call centers, you're using natural language technology, both on the inbound and all that, give us the overview, but you're playing on so many kind of innovation spaces, you know, the main interaction now with customers, and a brand, is either through the mobile phone, or through a call center, right. And that's becoming more, and increasingly, digitized. The ability to have a voice interaction, with a machine. Fascinating, and really, I think, revolutionary, and kind of taking, you know, getting us away from these stupid qwerty keyboards, which are supposed to slow us down on purpose. It's still the funniest thing ever, that we're still using these qwerty keyboards. So I wonder if you can share with us a little bit about, you know, kind of your vision of natural language, and how that changes the interaction with people, and machines. I think your TED Talk was really powerful, and I couldn't help but think of, you know, kind of mobile versus land lines, in terms of transformation. Transforming telecommunications in rural, and hard to serve areas, and then actually then adding the AI piece, to not only make it better for the front end person, but actually make it for the person servicing the account. >> Absolutely Jeff, so Uniphore, the company that I founded in 2008. We were talking about it's such a coincidence that I founded the company in 2008, the year of the Great Recession, and here we are again, talking in midst of the impact that we all have because of COVID. Uniphore does artificial intelligence and automation products, for the customer service industry. Call centers, as we know it, have fundamentally, for the last 20, 30 years, not have had a major technology disruption. We've seen a couple of ways of business model disruption, where call centers, you know, started to become offshore, in locations in Asia, India, and Mexico. Where our calls started to get routed around the world internationally, but fundamentally, the core technology in call centers, up until very recently, hadn't seen a major shift. With artificial intelligence, with natural language processings, speech recognition, available in over 100 languages. And, you know, in the last year or so, automation, and RPA, sort of adding to that mix, there's a whole new opportunity to re-think what customer service will mean to us, more in the future. As I think about the next five to seven years, with 5G happening, with 15 billion connected devices, you know, my five year old daughter, she the first thing she does when she enters the house from a playground, she goes to talk to her friend called Alexa. She speaks to Alexa. So, you know, these next generation of users, and technology users will grow up with AI, and voice, and NLP, all around us. And so their expectation of customer service and customer experience is going to be quantum times higher than some of us have, from our brands. I mean, today when a microwave or a TV doesn't work in our homes, our instinct could be to either go to the website of the brand, and try to do a chat with the agent, or do an 800 number phone call, and get them to visit the house to fix the TV. With, like I said with 5G, with TV, and microwave, and refrigerator becoming intelligent devices, you know, I could totally see my daughter telling the microwave "Why aren't you working?" And, you know, that question might still get routed to a remote contact center. Now the whole concept of contact center, the word has center in it, which means, in the past, we used to have these physical, massive locations, where people used to come in and put on their headsets to receive calls. Like John said, more than ever, we will see these centers become dispersed, and virtual. The channels with which these queries will come in would no more be just a phone, it would be the microwave, the car, the fridge. And the receivers of these calls would be anywhere in the world, sitting in their home, or sitting on a holiday in the Himalayas, and answering these situations to us. You know, I was reading, just for everyone to realize how drastic this shift has been, for the customer service industry. There are over 14 million workers, who work in contact centers around the world. Like I said, the word center means something here. All of them, right now, are working remote. This industry was never designed to work remote. Enterprises who fundamentally didn't plan for this. To your point Jeff, who thought digitization or automation, was a project they could have picked next year, or they were sitting on the fence, will now know more have a choice to make this adjustment. There's a report by a top analyst firm that said by 2023, up to 30% of customer service representatives would be remote. Well guess what, we just way blew past that number right away. And most of the CEOs that I talked to recently tell me that now that this shift has happened, about 40% of their workers will probably never return back to the office. They will always remain a permanent virtual workforce. Now when the workforce is remote, you need all the tools and technology, and AI, that A, if on any given day, 7-10% of your workforce calls in sick, you need bots, like the Amazon's Alexa, taking over a full conversation. Uniphore has a product called Akira, which does that in call centers. Most often, when these call center workers are talking, we have the experience of being put on hold, because call center workers have to type in something on their keyboard, and take notes. Well guess what, today AI and automation can assist them in doing that, making the call shorter, allowing the call center workers to take a lot more calls in the same time frame. And I don't know your experience, but, you know, a couple of weekends ago, the modem in my house wasn't working. I had a seven hour wait time to my service provider. Seven hour. I started calling at 8:30, it was somewhere around 3-4:00, finally, after call backs, wait, call back, wait, that it finally got resolved. It was just a small thing, I just couldn't get to the representative. So the enterprises are truly struggling, technology can help. They weren't designed to go remote, think about it, some of the unique challenges that I've heard now, from my customers, is that how do I know that my call center representative, who I've trained over years to be so nice, and empathetic, when they take a pee break, or a bio break, they don't get their 10 year old son to attend a call. How do I know that? Because now I can no more physically check in on them. How do I know that if I'm a bank, there's compliance? There's nothing being said that isn't being, is, you know, supposed to be said, because in a center, in an office, a supervisor can listen in. When everyone's remote, you can't do that. So AI, automation, monitoring, supporting, aiding human beings to take calls much better, and drive automation, as well as AI take over parts of a complete call, by the way of being a bot like Alexa, are sort of the things that Uniphore does, and I just feel that this is a permanent shift that we are seeing. While it's happening because of a terrible reason, the virus, that's affecting human beings, but the shift in business and behavior, is going to be permanent in this industry. >> Yeah, I think so, you know it's funny, I had Marten Mickos on, or excuse me, yeah, Marten Mickos, as part of this series. And I asked him, he's been doing distributed companies since he was doing MySQL, before Sun bought them. And he's, he was funny, it's like actually easier to fake it in an office, than when you're at home, because at home all you have to show is your deliverables. You can't look busy, you can't be going to meetings, you can't be doing things at your computer. All you have to show is your output. He said it's actually much more efficient, and it drives people, you know, to manage to the output, manage to what you want. But I want to shift gears a little bit, before we let you go, and really talk a little bit about the role of government. And John, I know you've been very involved with the Indian government, and the French government, trying to help them, in their kind of entrepreneurial pursuits, and Uniphore, I think, was founded in India, right, before you moved over here. You know we've got this huge stimulus package coming from the U.S. government, to try to help, as people, you know, can't pay their mortgage, a lot of people aren't so fortunate to be in digital businesses. It's two trillion dollars, so as kind of a thought experiment, I'm like well how much is two trillion dollars? And I did the cash balance of the FAANG companies. Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Alphabet, just looking at Yahoo Finance, the latest one that was there. It's 333 billion, compared to two trillion. Even when you add Microsoft's 133 billion on top, it's still shy, it's still shy of 500 billion. You know, and really, the federal government is really the only people in a position to make kind of sweeping, these types of investments. But should we be scared? Should we be worried about, you know, kind of this big shift in control? And should, do you think these companies with these big balance sheets, as you said John, priorities change a little bit. Should it be, keep that money to pay the people, so that they can stay employed and pay their mortgage, and go buy groceries, and maybe get take out from their favorite restaurant, versus, you know, kind of what we've seen in the past, where there's a lot more, you know, stock buy backs, and kind of other uses of these cash. As you said, if it's a crisis, and you got to cut to survive, you got to do that. But clearly some of these other companies are not in that position. >> So you, let me break it into two pieces, Jeff, if I may. The first is for the first time in my lifetime I have seen the federal government and federal agencies move very rapidly. And if you would have told me government could move with the speed we've seen over the last three months, I would have said probably not. The fed was ahead of both the initial interest rate cuts, and the fed was ahead in terms of the slowing down, i.e. your 2 trillion discussion, by central banks here, and around the world. But right behind it was the Treasury, which put on 4 trillion on top of that. And only governments can move in this way, but the coordination with government and businesses, and the citizens, has been remarkable. And the citizens being willing to shelter in place. To your question about India, Prime Minister Modi spent the last five years digitizing his country. And he put in place the most bandwidth of any country in the world, and literally did transformation of the currency to a virtual currency, so that people could get paid online, et cetera, within it. He then looked at start-ups and job creation, and he positioned this when an opportunity or problem came along, to be able to perhaps navigate through it in a way that other countries might struggle. I would argue President Macron in France is doing a remarkable job with his innovation economy, but also saying how do you preserve jobs. So you suddenly see government doing something that no business can do, with the scale, and the speed, and a equal approach. But at the same time, may of these companies, and being very candid, that some people might have associated with tech for good, or with tech for challenges, have been unbelievably generous in giving both from the CEOs pockets perspective, and number two and three founders perspective, as well as a company giving to the CDC, and giving to people to help create jobs. So I actually like this opportunity for tech to regain its image of being good for everybody in the world, and leadership within the world. And I think it's a unique opportunity. For my start-ups, I've been so proud, Jeff. I didn't have to tell them to go do the right thing with their employees, I didn't have to tell them that you got to treat people, human lives first, the economy second, but we can do both in parallel. And you saw companies like Sprinklr suddenly say how can I help the World Health Organization anticipate through social media, where the next spread of the virus is going to be? A company, like Bloom Energy, with what KR did there, rebuilding all of the ventilators that were broken here in California, of which about 40% were, out of the stock that they got, because it had been in storage for so long, and doing it for all of California in their manufacturing plant, at cost. A company like Aspire Foods, a cricket company down in Texas, who does 3D capabilities, taking part of their production in 3D, and saying how many thousand masks can I generate, per week, using 3D printers. You watch what Umesh has done, and how he literally is changing peoples lives, and making that experience, instead of being a negative from working at home, perhaps to a positive, and increasing the customer loyalty in the process, as opposed to when you got a seven hour wait time on a line. Not only are you probably not going to order anything else from that company, you're probably going to change it. So what is fascinating to me is I believe companies owe an obligation to be successful, to their employees, and to their shareholders, but also to give back to society. And it's one of the things I'm most proud about the portfolio companies that I'm a part of, and why I'm so proud of what Umesh is doing, in both a economically successful environment, but really giving back and making a difference. >> Yeah, I mean, there's again, there's all the doctor stuff, and the medical stuff, which I'm not qualified to really talk about. Thankfully we have good professionals that have the data, and the knowledge, and know what to do, and got out ahead of the social distancing, et cetera, but on the backside, it really looks like a big data problem in so many ways, right. And now we have massive amounts of compute at places like Amazon, and Google, and we have all types of machine learning and AI to figure out, you know, there's kind of resource allocation, whether that be hospital beds, or ventilators, or doctors, or nurses, and trying to figure out how to sort that all out. But then all of the, you know, genome work, and you know, kind of all that big heavy lifting data crunching, you know, CPU consuming work, that hopefully is accelerating the vaccine. Because I don't know how we get all the way out of this until, it just seems like kind of race to the vaccine, or massive testing, so we know that it's not going to spike up. So it seems like there is a real opportunity, it's not necessarily Kaiser building ships, or Ford building planes, but there is a role for tech to play in trying to combat this thing, and bring it under control. Umesh, I wonder if you could just kind of contrast being from India, and now being in the States for a couple years. Anything kind of jump out to you, in terms of the differences in what you're hearing back home, in the way this has been handled? >> You know, it's been very interesting, Jeff, I'm sure everyone is concerned that India, for many reasons, so far hasn't become a big hot spot yet. And, you know, we can hope and pray that that remains to be the case. There are many things that the government back home has done, I think India took lessons from what they saw in Europe, and the U.S, and China. They went into a countrywide lockdown pretty early, you know, pretty much when they were lower than a two hundred positive tested cases, the country went into lockdown. And remember this is a 1.5 billion people all together going into lockdown. What I've seen in the U.S. is that, you know, California thankfully reacted fast. We've all been sheltered in place, there's cabin fever for all of us, but you know, I'm sure at the end of the day, we're going to be thankful for the steps that are taken. Both by the administration at the state level, at the federal level, and the medical doctors, who are doing everything they can. But India, on the other hand, has taken the more aggressive stance, in terms of doing a country lockdown. We just last evening went live at a University in the city of Chennai, where Uniphore was born. The government came out with the request, much like the U.S., where they're government departments were getting a surge of traffic about information about COVID, the hospitals that are serving, what beds are available, where is the testing? We stood up a voice bot with AI, in less than a week, in three languages. Which even before the government started to advertise, we started to get thousands of calls. And this is AI answering these questions for the citizens, in doing so. So it goes back to your point of there's a real opportunity of using all the technology that the world has today, to be put to good use. And at the same time, it's really partnering meaningfully with government, in India, in Singapore, in Vietnam, and here in the U.S., to make sure that happens on, you know, John's coaching and nudging, I became a part of the U.S.-India Strategic Partnership Forum, which is truly a premier trade and commerce body between U.S. and India. And I, today, co-chaired the start-up program with, you know, the top start-ups between U.S. and India, being part of that program. And I think we got, again, tremendously fortunate, and lucky with the timeline. We started working on this start-up program between U.S. and India, and getting the start-ups together, two quarters ago, and as this new regulation with the government support, and the news about the two trillion dollar packages coming out, and the support for small businesses, we could quickly get some of the questions answered for the start-ups. Had we not created this body, which had the ability to poll the Treasury Department, and say here are questions, can start-ups do A, B, and C? What do you have by way of regulation? And I think as a response to one of our letters, on Monday the Treasury put out an FAQ on their website, which makes it super clear for start-ups and small businesses, to figure out whether they qualify or they don't qualify. So I think there's ton that both from a individual company, and the technology that each one of us have, but also as a community, how do we, all of us, meaningfully get together, as a community, and just drive benefit, both for our people, for the economy, and for our countries. Wherever we have the businesses, like I said in the U.S., or in India, or parts of Asia. >> Yeah, it's interesting. So, this is a great conversation, I could talk to you guys all night long, but I probably would hear about it later, so we'll wrap it, but I just want to kind of close on the following thought, which is really, as you've talked about before John, and as Umesh as you're now living, you know, when we go through these disruptions, things do get changed, and as you said a lot of people, and companies don't get through it. On the other hand many companies are birthed from it, right, people that are kind of on the new trend, and are in a good position to take advantage, and it's not that you're laughing over the people that didn't make it, but it does stir up the pot, and it sounds like, Umesh, you're in a really good position to take advantage of this new kind of virtual world, this new digital transformation, that's just now waiting anymore. I love your stat, they were going to move X% out of the call center over some period of time, and then it's basically snap your fingers, everybody out, without much planning. So just give you the final word, you know, kind of advice for people, as they're looking forward, and Umesh, we'll get you on another time, because I want to go deep diving in natural language, I think that's just a fascinating topic in the way that people are going to interact with machines and get rid of the stupid qwerty keyboard. But let me get kind of your last thoughts as we wrap this segment. Umesh we'll let you go first. >> Umesh, you want to go first? >> I'll go first. My last thoughts are first for the entrepreneurs, everyone who's sort of going through this together. I think in difficult times is when real heroes are born. I read a quote that when it's a sunny day, you can't overtake too many cars, but when it's raining you have a real opportunity. And the other one that I read was when fishermen can't go out fishing, because of the high tide, they come back, and mend their nets, and be ready for the time that they can go out. So I think there's no easy way to say, this is a difficult time for the economy, health wise, I hope that, you know, we can contain the damage that's being done through the virus, but some of us have the opportunity to really take our products and technology out there, more than usual. Uniphore, particularly, has a unique opportunity, the contact center industry just cannot keep up with the traffic that it's seeing. Around the world, across US, across Asia, across India, and the need for AI and automation would never be pronounced more than it is today. As much as it's a great business opportunity, it's more of a responsibility, as I see it. There can be scale up as fast as the demand is coming, and really come out of this with a much stronger business model. John has always told me in final words you always paint the picture of what you want to be, a year or two out. And I see Uniphore being a much stronger AI plus automation company, in the customer service space, really transforming the face of call centers, and customer service. Which have been forced to rethink their core business value in the last few weeks. And, you know, every fence sitter who would think that digitalization and automation was an option that they could think of in the future years, would be forced to make those decisions now. And I'm just making sure that my team, and my company, and I, am ready to gear to that great responsibility and opportunity that's ahead of us. >> John, give you the final word. >> Say Jeff, I don't know if you can still hear me, we went blank there, maybe for me to follow up. >> We gotcha. >> Shimon Peres taught me a lot about life, and dealing with life the way it is, not the way you wish it was. So did my parents, but he also taught me it always looks darkest just before the tide switches, and you move on to victory. I think the challenges in front of us are huge, I think our nation knows how to deal with that, I do believe the government has moved largely pretty effectively, to give us the impetus to move, and then if we continue to flatten the curve on the issues with the pandemic, if we get some therapeutic drugs that dramatically reduce the risk of death, for people that get the challenges the worst, and over time a vaccine, I think you look to the future, America will rebound, it will be rebounding around start-ups, new job creation, using technology in every business. So not only is there a light at the tunnel, at the end of the tunnel, I think we will emerge from this a stronger nation, a stronger start-up community. But it depends on how well we work together as a group, and I just want to say to Umesh, it's an honor to be your coach, and I learn from you as much as I give back. Jeff, as always, you do a great job. Thank you for your time today. >> Thank you both, and I look forward to our next catch up. Stay safe, wash your hands, and thanks for spending some time with us. >> And I just want to say I hope and pray that all of us can get together in Palo Alto real quick, and in person, and doing fist bumps, not shake hands or probably a namaste. Thank you, it's an honor. >> Thank you very much. All right, that was John and Umesh, you're watching theCUBE from our Palo Alto Studios, thanks for tuning in, stay safe, wash your hands, keep away from people that you're not that familiar with, and we'll see you next time. Thanks for watching. (calm music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios (upbeat music) in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Everyone, welcome to this CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto, California during the COVID-19 current situation. We're here with a skeleton crew, getting the content out there. Wanted to bring a special remote interview to you with two great remote guests, talking about how the digital events, and how the digital interactions are evolving, and how our community's reacting. Got two great guests, John Kreisa, a senior vice president of marketing at Docker, and Jenny Burcio, who's the advocate, community and DockerCon content lead at Docker. Jenny and John, thanks for joining me today. >> Great to be here, thank you. >> Thanks, John. >> So you guys, Docker has been one of the most popular container platforms from the beginning of this cloud native movement. You have over millions and millions of developers out there. DockerCon is going virtual. It's an event that you guys had physically over the years, now it's going to go virtual, but this is not new to the developer world. I want to get into that in the conversation, but first I want to give you guys a chance to take a minute and explain, John Kreisa, if you take a minute to explain the new Docker because there were some changes over the past year. Take a quick minute to explain that. >> Sure thanks John, and hello everybody. So, we went through a change in November of last year to refocus Docker on, I'll say, what was the roots and the foundations of the company, around developers and developer teams. And so, at that time we took the action to split off the enterprise-focused component of the business, sold it to a company called Mirantis. Since that time, we've been working very diligently around refocusing Docker on developer tooling, developer chains, and really developer productivity, individuals and teams, and that's something that has really revitalized our community, I'll say. The community's been strong and has come with us, and I think is reacting very, very positively to this change. So that's something that we've been going on, we're about five months into that change, and that's been positive so far. >> So it's a startup, kind of a reset, kind of a start up again, get the startup roots, but with a huge community, millions of developers. >> Massive community, that's right. Millions of developers, more than two million Docker desktop downloads installed on developer machines. Huge community around Docker Hub, using that as their essential collaboration point for developers for developing applications as they move those applications to the web, and to the cloud infrastructure. So, really just a tremendous community. It is a refocused company, but one that really is starting with a phenomenal foundation, as you mentioned, in terms of the community that we have with us. >> And it's a second chance to ride the big wave. Certainly the waves are bigger now. I don't want to make this a real commercial about Docker, or DockerCon. We're going to do a special video promo reel on that event, which we're kind of co-producing with you guys on a new collaboration. So look for, the folks watching, look for a nice promo intro video on what's going to happen at DockerCon, which will be a whole nother track. The reason why I wanted to bring you guys here, is this highlights to me the core impact of part of this crisis and current situation around Coronavirus, COVID-19, people are working at home more, so the mainstream world is seeing what it's like to work at home. People are understanding some of the pressures and the dynamics around how people communicate and work. And we, Jenny, were talking about this from a community standpoint. Open source community, they've been working at home (laughs) for a long time. It's been one of the most biggest success stories that hasn't been written is the success of how software developers have been productive in working in these groups on big projects with people from around the world. This isn't new. I'd love to get your perspective on how, what's your reaction to everyone else's reaction of the whole work-at-home digital world? >> Yeah, so, I mean, if you look at what open source, and what engineers have done, generally. You know, innovation doesn't happen within an office from nine to five, in whatever time zone you're in. And so, there's been, with Docker, GitHub, Zoom, a number of tools in place, and not just the ones I named, that really allow anyone, anywhere in the world, to contribute their ideas, and respond real time. We're not going through a huge change, even within Docker or in tech, of having to work from home. Maybe kids in the calls is a little bit different, but for many of us, we're lucky to continue marching on during this time. >> What do you guys see as best practices of the work-at-home crisis, or some of the collaboration techniques? I mean, everyone knows the online troll. I mean, trolls just get booted out, or moderated out of groups. Is there a certain best practice that you could share with folks that aren't, that are learning this for the first time? >> Sure, so, highly recommend having a code of conduct, and living by that code of conduct. So making it very visible to whomever you're working with, both internally at the company, and in open source, externally to anyone wanting to contribute to a project. Giving grace in this time. As we all know there's stress much beyond what's happening in our day-to-day work for all the community right now. And writing things as much as possible. And I think, particularly as in the last couple of weeks, there's been a real need to keep the written record of decisions and conversations, and make it out there and open so anyone can kind of participate. And even to that end, Docker announced a public roadmap earlier this month. So now our entire community can jump on and vote for what they want to see, or provide input and ideas on what we would do next. >> John, I want to ask you around DockerCon coming up, as you guys look to this being a first virtual event, digital event we call it. It's more digital than virtual, but I guess people use the word virtual more now, but it's really digital. Content value has always been king on physical events, but as you move over to virtual events, you just can't make the same people make the same decisions around a breakout room, or what assignment on the calendar and just ship it over to digital is a whole nother roles. New rules, new roles, new dynamics. What's your view on this as a marketer, because you've been on both sides, successful on both sides of the table there? >> Yeah, it is a, in a way, whole new world. I've participated in virtual events in the past, but I think this, the kind of scenario that we're in, puts a whole new impetus on making sure that these events, as much as you can, emulate the in-person experience. I think it's important that the experience you provide to your audience allows them to interact in a number of different ways, above and beyond just simply watching and consuming content, but really allows them to interact with each other that makes it so they can interact with speakers, and other users, and the kinds of people that they want to have. One of the things that we're thinking about, for example, for DockerCon coming up is, how do we emulate that hallway experience, right? The you're walking down the hall, you see somebody, you've been wanting to talk to them, and you have a quick five, or 10, or 20-minute conversation that allows you to have a really good, rich exchange. And that's something that we're working hard, Jenny's working hard on, and that the team's really working hard to provide. So, you know, in this new world, it's how do we bring some of those things that make a great in-person event to the virtual world? And you know, there's fortunately a lot of great tools out there now that do make that possible, you just have to bring them together in the right way. >> Yeah, I know that's something that we've been working on together with you guys, and you know, everyone knows my rant. I think that the format's going to be multiple different types of formats. Chats are different. We were chatting around the different, you know, there's a streamed chat, like on YouTube and Twitch, versus threaded like Reddit. And the hallway grabs, those hallway tracks, it's all about the content of the people, and I want to get your thoughts on, as you guys look to take this asynchronous approach, try to make it synchronous with DockerCon, has it changed some of your thinking around call for papers? I mean, call for papers is almost like an editorial call for a blog post now. So is it changing how you guys are thinking? Is there any insight that you could share as you guys are preparing? Also, you still got to get sponsors. You still got to get some funding. Maybe not huge amounts 'cause the physical space, venue's not there, it's digital now. So, can you guys just share your thinking, your reaction, and any insights you can glean from those two dynamics, the format, the call for papers, and the sponsors, and things of that nature that were proven methods the old way? I mean, just like, call the papers, line up the schedule, there it is, and everyone shows up, but not anymore. What's different? >> So with virtual we really have the opportunity to take the serendipity out of the conversations and the learning that happens at an in-person event. We ran a traditional call for papers. It closed on Friday, we got a number of responses and great, great content that came in. But we're not going to set a speaker up to deliver that live in a session at DockerCon. We're going to pre-record their talks, and have the speaker there live to actually chat with anyone in the audience. So, answer questions, so you'll have, actually, a much greater opportunity to talk to that expert via this virtual event than you would in person, listening to that person speak. I think it really helps first time speakers, and speakers who aren't as confident to get up in a huge room, to have the opportunity to pre-record their talk. So it adds to kind of the diversity and inclusion of the event to bring on some new speakers, for sure. And from a location standpoint, right, now you don't have to give up a whole week to show up somewhere. You can spend that time working on your talk, or whatever else, to kind of share your knowledge. And then the conversation doesn't have to end there. You really, everyone has a way to connect with each other after the fact, which as event marketers, you're always looking for what is that way that you continue the wonderful connections and learning that happens at a live event, beyond. And by having it all happen virtually, you're setting yourself up for success in that area. >> It actually makes it more interesting, because you think about it, you give your talk, and you're there after either giving people high fives, or signing autographs, or getting tomatoes thrown at you. So it's there, right? I mean, it is what's the product, it's the content product. You can engage with the audience after to take that followup, that side bar, maybe the conversations. How about, John, sponsors? I mean, obviously, we have to include sponsors into these events. You know, I've seen some software out there that's pretty old school. It's like, "Oh, here's the digital rendering of our booth." I mean, I personally think that's horrible. I think that's the wrong direction, but the content value of a booth is an event within the event. So there is a way to weave this in. What's your vision of that? How do you see the inclusion of a sponsor, and how is it more intimate and more authentic for them? >> Yeah, I think there's multiple aspects in terms of benefits for a sponsor that we are thinking about. Certainly, as you said, you don't really get that walk into the booth kind of experience, but given that it's all digital, you actually have a much more scalable way to enable sponsors to interact. Firstly, just with how we're promoting the event going into it, and the fact that as they create an asset, it can live in perpetuity, that we can continue to push out there to viewers. And we know that people can come and look at that content afterwards, and that gives yet another opportunity for those sponsors to interact with the people who are consuming it. So everybody has to really think a little bit differently. Both the sponsors of these events, and the hosts, as Docker is doing now, to how and what kinds of interactions. So we're thinking, how do we allow them to capture an interaction? What kinds of calls to action can they include within their digital content? And so everybody's got to think a little bit more digitally and more forward than just, "Hey, let me have people walk "into my booth and pick up some swag." >> You know, it's interesting, we have this conversation that's like an angle on theCUBE all the time, if you think about the end user, the consumer of the content, if you work on the strive for the content value, everybody wins. So, it's like an upstream project in open source. If done well, everyone can reap the benefits. If the shared mission is audience satisfaction around the content, that's contextually relevant to the people at any given time, which is what digital is beautiful for, and you can really create an environment for great activation, and full-on demand, consumer experience advantage, either learning or engaging, or whatever. If you do that, if everyone shares in that mission, that's a success formula. Whether you're a sponsor, or an attendee, or a producer. Do you agree with that? >> And John, we were saying earlier today, this format makes content even more of the king, right? The way that you're going to get attention is by delivering value through that content, and you will probably have a better result of someone stopping by to learn what your offering is, or what knowledge you're bringing to the table, versus what that piece of swag was that they're getting scanned for. >> And there's a role for everybody. I remember when, back in the glory days when I used to develop code, I used to go show my peers my software, they're like, "Yeah, John, that code's just not good." "Well, no, no." But there's a role for me. I wasn't the best coder, but if you have good code, you rise right to the top of the pecking order and people recognize your software in open source, and content's kind of the same way. Everyone can produce content, and some will be better than others, but it doesn't mean that it's just about the content produced, or the curation, there's other roles. Do you guys see some parallels between content development in this kind of way, in a similar fashion as, say, software? I'm just making that metaphor up, it's just riffing out loud. It's a similar construct. Good software wins the day. Good community makes it all work. >> Sure, if your end goal is to educate others and share something that is of value, then it's going to be picked up. And of course creating content takes practice, just like becoming an excellent coder. And so, the stakes aren't as high in a virtual event, especially with pre-recording and some of the other things that you're doing. You know, blog about it. Do a video, do a session, right? Take that content, deliver it different ways, and practice. Particular to DockerCon, both at our live events, and what we will do moving forward, we have an extensive support system for all of our speakers. We assign a number of people internally to review outline, review talk tracks, review slides, and run through actual practices, so that our speakers are very attuned to what our audience is going to be expecting, and feel very comfortable delivering their session, because their success is our success, and ultimately, we're looking for delivering that value to Docker's builders. >> I love the format you mentioned earlier, pre-record, but also there's a new format emerging that's very popular in the Twitch world which is streaming your video game. I still predict that people will be streaming their coding sessions, but you guys have a Docker captain in Brett, who has his own streaming rig and he does the Docker birthday party, recently. I think that's going to be a future format, streaming to an end point, not just for gaming, but for just life, life casting as some people call it. But that's a good format. It fits perfectly into these digital events to host and emcee these sessions. So you can do the record on-demand, record in advance, but there's also a role for streaming, doing the demos, doing the tech talks. >> I mean, think about your audience. They need something both in the moment, and after the fact. And sessions are something that you can watch now, or later, but running through an event with our captain, like Brett Fisher, you want to be there to see what's going on. We did a birthday live stream on Thursday, to celebrate Docker's seventh birthday, and it was amazing because we had so many members of our community come on. They can't go to meet-ups anymore with everything that's happening, but we found a way to all connect, all chat, have a great time, and have this group experience, both fun and learning. And I think we will continue to see that, not just in the conference form, but increasingly now with COVID, people can't get together. People are Zooming with their high school friends to make up for time lost. So I think beyond our industry, the world is going to get very used to connecting virtually. >> I'm going to have a Zoom session tonight, seven o'clock on my Facebook page. It's going to be interesting to see all my high school friends come out, and who knows those words, but there's kind of no moderator button on Facebook. I got to figure out, make sure they're all there. Final question on this whole event thing, and then we can get to this last section around DockerCon. John and Jenny, we both have friends that are in digital, have done events. I'm hearing a lot of pressure is on these digital teams, because the physical events have proven a lot of great business value. Most companies know the economic value of physical event. Again, it's been standardized over decades, but now all of the sudden these new teams, digital teams, are being asked to provide the same business value that these physical events have provided, and these teams aren't equipped for it. So I'm getting a lot of phone calls, and a lot of outreach to theCUBE saying, "We need help." That's the event digital team, and the demand generation marketing teams. They're under a lot of pressure. Are you guys seeing the same thing, and if you are, what advice would you give the people out there, because they're under a massive amount of pressure to deliver? >> Yeah, it's a new world in that regard. And yeah, there are a few platforms out there, but in terms of something for demand marketers that emulates that live event, there's really not. I mean, as you know, we're innovating in multiple ways with you to bring a different kind of experience, but we're also having to think about how do we convert that into some kind of economic value? I mean, for example, DockerCon is a free event this year. A lot of the costs are lower, but it's a free event. That sort of changes that aspect of it. But the other part is, how do we make sure that we connect with that audience, so that we have an ongoing relationship? The way we're looking at it, and I think one recommendation for other companies, is it is a component in a series of engagements. It's a very big one, one that we're investing quite a bit in, in terms of resources, but it's really just a series of, one component of a series of engagements that we have digitally. And there's lot of other ways that you can do it, and fortunately, like Jenny has online meetups, or already has virtual meetups as a component of our virtual experience. This is one that we're sliding in with that, and based on how we're expecting it to go, we'll continue to invest in it in the future. >> Jenny, 365 days in the year, that's digital, it's aways on, right? It's like you got to think holistically, not just have an event, stand it up, tear it down, move to the next one. You activate and you got to keep it always on, you have to keep a pulse. Keep the community rolling. >> Yes, and whether it was a physical event, or a virtual event, that's your goal anyways, is to continue that momentum and keep the community going. We are innovating on that with you for DockerCon, but we're also very much listening to our community, and what their needs are, and trying to figure out how to support their connections with their local community. Docker has a pretty extensive meetup network all around the world, and the rise of virtual really allows us to take the physical limitations of local meetups out, and if they want to run virtual events, then great, how can we support them as well? >> That's awesome. And you know our mission from this area for the folks watching, is to create the best experience possible for audiences, and that means putting the right content in front of them that matters, or having them choose their own content, meet the right people, find if their friends are there, make it a great engaging experience. Because if that happens, everybody wins. So, we're looking forward to DockerCon. If you guys could just give a highlight, quick teaser. John, give a quick teaser on DockerCon, and then Jenny, give the community update of what do you guys expect to have happen? What are you hoping for? What are you nervous about? What's the excitement? What's going on? John, we'll start with you. >> Yeah, thanks John. So just a brief on DockerCon. It's May 28th, of this year. It is a free event that is going to run for, I think it's eight hours during the day. There's multimodal, kind of consumption models. So we're thinking in terms of different channels that people can come and consume. We talked a little bit about the live channel with our captains. There's a live channel with theCUBE, with you guys. There's also the pre-recorded track content. So, there's a way for people to come and interact, come and participate in the chats, and consume content that should be highly educational and focused, and we hope that it'll be a great experience. We're really focused on the content, making sure that it's a great experience for our users and our audience. >> Jenny, how about the community? What's your take, and what's your goal and aspirations? What are you hoping for? >> Hoping for the community to be able to connect, both with the speakers, experts, captains, get their questions answered, have conversations with people on stage, if you will, but also with each other. And just kind of strengthen the bonds of the community, and getting everybody to a better place with developing with Docker and DevOps, and kind of create those pathways beyond May 28th. >> Yeah, it's a DevOps world. We're going to do our best. Hope we put a kick ass program together. It's going to be fun, (laughs) and we hope we have good bandwidth. John went out a couple times there, one time, but we're going to have some good time, and hopefully learn a lot and iterate, and just raise the bar on it and just get it going. So really appreciate collaborating with you guys, and really thank you for your insight on this real, I think, a clear vision on how digital's going to shape how people engage and how events will go, even when they come back. I think this point in time, this current situation's going to emphasize the role of digital isn't just about marketing to people and getting them to come to an event. I think it's going to be a real productive network effect, where there's value created. And I think the silver lining in all this is, this is going to be now the new path for us. So thank you for sharing your cutting edge insights. I appreciate your time, thank you. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> Thank you, John. >> Okay, this is a CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier here in the CUBE studios in Palo Alto, with the remote interviews during this time of crisis, of COVID-19 current situation. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Announcer: From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE Conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to this CUBE Conversation here in Palo Alto, California at theCUBE studios. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We're here for a special conversation with Michael Letschin who's the Director of Technical Advocacy at Cohesity, and John Troyer, Chief Reckoner at TechReckoning, also does a CUBE host, co-host's with us some events, certainly VMworld. Guys welcome to this conversation. >> Thank you. >> The title is Work-Life Balance: Is It Really That Simple? A topic that Cohesity, you guys are donating your session at VMworld on, to kind of give back and share data around, really an important issue, around work which is burnout, you know mental stability. There's always been a stigma, but that stigma now people are recognizing that, hey, you know what? if you need to take some time off, why not? >> Exactly. People are just getting just completely overworked at this point in IT. So we really talked about it about it and we thought it was a good thing to do something different than standard for tech companies nowadays sometimes. >> John, you and I have talked off-camera with The CUBE sets around the old IT adage, 'Do more with less!' Almost like banging people hard to do, and squeeze more profits out of it. You guys, VMware, certainly. When you were there, you had virtualization changed the game on the server landscape. But the old IT, they work hard. There's a lot of technical people working hard, and they're asked to do so many different things. And now as careers start to change, more pressure. >> Right, right. We're in a 24/7 world. The cloud is there. IT only really only gets noticed sometimes when things go wrong, and that's kind of a resume generating event. So people in our society, I think, there's a lot of pressure. >> So, tell about the session. I know it's a teaser, I wouldn't want to reveal too many cards here on the video, but what's going to be talked about in the session? What's the topic? What's some of the data? >> Well, we did a survey, we didn't even really promote it very much, out for IT professionals. We got 360 responses from IT professionals all over the world: North America, Europe, and beyond, from, ya know, people doing cabling in data centers, all the way to CEO's of companies, talking about IT burnout. And about what they're feeling, what they're experiencing, what symptoms they're having. And burnout is really not just being tired. Right, we think, ugh, I didn't get enough sleep, I'm burnt out. It is really a psychological disconnection from your work, from your purpose, from your coworkers. It's a feeling, I don't want to do this. It's really an F-U moment. Excuse me. [Laughing] >> You can, we're digital, you can say that. We have no FTC to worry about. Yeah, but this is important. I mean, people do want to do the good job, and we hear all this stuff, oh, 'admission driven companies,' but at the end of the day, if the work environment is not going to be conducive to people feeling good about themselves or being, ya know, kind of together, that's just huge. >> Exactly, and I think there's something to be said about getting that time. Not just enjoying what you're doing every day, but to keep doing that, sometimes you have to get away from that. And, I think that's a lot of what we found when we did the survey was people weren't always seeing that they could get away from it. They really felt pretty pressured to stay in. And sometimes it wasn't just from their management, either. We saw a lot of people that came back with comments even that some of the issues they had were, the community actually kind of pushed them into, they need to do more, they need to be out in the community. So, they were doing their day job, and now I've still got to do more, still got to go out and do more blogging, and I've got to do more training, I've got to do more certifications. Is it really helping your career? Is it helping your life? Is it helping your family? >> Work-Life balance has always been a topic, and you mentioned the community. Also, you add open source to that, too. There's more pressure there. That's like its own company. So you have the work-life balance, what are some of the pressure points you guys see? 'Cause I know living in Silicon valley, for me personally, the past 20 years, I know people personally, as well as stories from friends. This huge burnout, as entrepreneurs, CEO's, start up founders, they burn out a lot, there's failure involved, and you see depression and mental illness become a big topic, people are talking about it. And it's out in the open now, it's not hidden, it's not one those things. What's the IT equivalent, what's going on in the world that you guys have uncovered in the survey? >> Well, certainly some pretty similar, a lot of it is hours worked, right? You're on call a lot, you're traveling a lot. Pressures get worse as you get higher in the organization. We in the survey, we just saw, there's a lot of science to say you shouldn't be working more than 40 hours a week, 50 hours a week, once you get over that you're actual overall work productivity plummets. And we saw a lot both in Europe and the U.S., people work not only more than 40 hours a week, but outside of business hours as well. And they are even connected on vacation. >> And, interestingly, a lot of them weren't because they had to. Like, it wasn't, they were oncall or a shift job. So, you kind of expect, you're going to work weird hours. If you're an early on help desk person, you're on call, you have that two weekends a month, or whatever, you kind of expect that it's kind of the norm. But a lot of these people are management, director level, VP level, that are still working all these extra hours and are working 40, 50, 60 hours a week, and feel like that's what they have to do. >> And often they don't feel like they're in control. So, even the executives, so it's a normal, right, if you're, again, if you're an individual contributor, a lot of stuff is out of your control, if you're a middle manager. But even the folks who are senior said 'I don't feel like I can control my work.' And that seems to be a big part of psychological fulfillment that you need to have the strength to keep, you know, to keep working hard every day. >> And the digital tools make us more connected, it's only compounds that I think. Because, you could be at the sideline of your kids soccer event or sport, you're still checking your email, still the distractions of the screen are there. >> Well, I think that was something, one of the things that came out of it was the number of people that do not disconnect, and are on 24/7, with their personal and their work, especially in North America, was incredibly high on it. You get into Europe, it was a pretty significant difference. Pretty much across the board, I think it was like 85% stay connected on their personal and everything 24/7. >> Instagram, Facebook... >> People aren't giving up their Instagram or their Facebook when they're on vacation. But, they definitely for work side, I mean we saw 70-80% of people that were still somewhat connected for, even when, especially in North America, whether it was just their email, or they check their email once a day. And that's if they even took the vacations, cause that was something that I thought was pretty shocking on how little people took vacation. I mean, I just saw another study that just came out the other day, that there was somewhere like, 270 billion dollars worth of vacation hours wasted last year in the U.S. >> Yeah >> You mean not used up? >> Not used. I think it was 270 billion, I think was the number I saw. Which is an absurd number of days off that people aren't using. >> It's a fascinating topic, and I think it's one of these cutting-edge societal challenges of the tech industry, needs to kind of put on the table. Because, you think about all the stuff we talk about in these conferences like DevOps. You automate away the heavy lifting, the undifferentiated heavy lifting. In life, you see that same kind of potential, I mean, if you can, if we can be more creative, you're seeing projects being more project based, less hourly work. So, is the working changing, does IT shift, what do you guys see there, what's the survey, is there any anecdotal data, or data around, how the types of jobs are changing? Is there more flex time, is there more project basis, more team oriented? Is there any shifts in, kind of, what you're seeing there? >> Well, in the survey we asked about are people talking about it at work? And are there programs? Are people acknowledging that this is happening? And for the most part people aren't really talking about it. I think there is more automation as we grow our data centers up and our cloud, but I don't see people, it just means people are doing more, which is where we started they're doing more with less. >> Well I do know that one of the things that we often see, from my previous shop as well as for here, with Cohesity it's the simplicity of what we can do, does tend to make those projects and those jobs easier, so it frees up some of that time that we weren't getting otherwise. I think, kind of going back, you mentioned a comment about the start up founders, and how quickly they burn out in Silicon Valley. I think it's not just the CEO, the people look at it and they see a startup founder and they think it's the CEO and the three people, but in all reality, if you're a startup that's 50 people and below, you're probably doing just as much time and you have that commit, like, it feels personal to you. I mean, it did to me. And I know for sure when I started at Nexenta, when it was pretty small when we there and as we grew, but also man, I felt some ownership in it. Which meant I did more, and I did more. I definitely got to a point where I was burnt out, I was very much burnt out and it became very obvious. I ended up on a, I hate to say it's a bender, but I was definitely on a bender for a nice long week for a vacation. >> Well, startups are kind of addicting but also so is the dopamine effect with digital and also work. Is there anything that you guys gleaned out of the surveys that were potential solutions to the problem on burnout? Were there any kind of unsolicited [Laughs], like, you know, this needs to change, was there any kind of obvious mandate that came out of the survey? >> So, I think there was some definites on management needs to be more prescriptive. That, that chaos is a big issue. If people don't know what they are there for and what they're doing it's a big issue on it. There was a lot of things about mindfulness, surprised we got quite a few comments on you just have to find that time to step away. There is going to be a little giveaway that I'm not going to give away at the session yet. But so if they are at the session, we have a little giveaway to help people with the mindfulness. >> What time is the session? What day? Where do they find the location? >> So it's on Wednesday at VMworld at 12:30. The location, I actually don't know the room yet because I don't think VMware has told us the room yet. >> Well, VMware World is moving back to Moscone from Vegas after the reconstruction is done out in San Francisco, so that's new. So check the location for the session Wednesday at 12:30. Any other burn out characteristics that we missed that you could share that's important? >> Well, I think the prescriptive thing, the management being more prescriptive is important. Taking, actually taking vacation. Unlimited vacation in some ways can backfire against you, because people don't take it, they don't have their two weeks. You know, the other thing is, I think, just, management has to build in enough profit to let people take some time off. >> It's an HR planning challenge too. >> Yes >> Did work at home come out at all on the survey? People working at home did that come into play? >> So I think it came more into play around the travel side of things than it did the work from home. We did see some interesting things on the travel, it seemed like if you did not travel at all those people tend to get burnt out at a higher rate. The people that travel all the time, really were pretty low on the ones that felt like they were getting burnt out. >> They were numb, they didn't know they were burnt out. >> I mean it could be because they didn't have the life part of the work-life balance, because they were always on a plane, I know that feeling, but I try to find the time. >> Yeah, people who work hard always have a spouse 'hey get off the computer,' or you know, there's paying attention to the things that are right in front of you like family for instance comes up a lot, that I see. >> Connecting to your purpose, whether that's your family purpose or your work purpose was a big part of it. Being able to kind of split your attention that way or get your attention back. >> Well, thanks for doing the survey, and that's a great service to the industry that Cohesity is doing, to use the session up rather than plugging the company's products and gear, to give back. >> Really I think it's super important for companies to have that social responsibility on it. And I think it's, it was a pleasure for me and our team to be able to talk to management and to be able to say, 'this makes sense,' and them agree. Which I don't think there's a lot of companies out there will, so I'm super excited to be able to have it. >> When you start getting the therapy going let me know I'll be the first customer. I need all the help I can get, everyone knows that here. Burnout's tough, it's an important issue to be talked about, and there shouldn't be a stigma associated with it. People can perform best if they are rested. That's well proven. So, congratulations on a great survey. While I've got you guys here I want to get your thoughts on VMworld 2019, it's theCUBE's 10th year covering it. John, you were working at VMWare, running the community, social media, podcasting, blogging, tweeting. >> Laughs: Some of those, yeah. >> When we there for the first year, you were there from the beginning, you've been with us the whole time, I want to personally thank you for being part of our journey, it's been great. A lot's changed in ten years and if you look back at the industry, two acquisitions today by VMWare, Paul Maritz took over the helm that year in 2010 from Diane Greene, laid out essentially Cloud, although it kind of didn't happen the way they thought it would happen, but, guys what's your take on ten years looking back at VMworld? What's the big moments of good, bad, and the ugly? >> To me, VMworld has been a great connecting point for the community. I don't think there has been another community and another network that has grown nearly like VM, where has done and what has happened with it. And VMworld's been a big part of that, I mean it was, whether it was VMworld in one part of the year and Partner Exchange in the other half, but it was that chance to actually see all those people that you talk to so often. I think it's been a world of difference for me. I think I've missed the first one, I think, is all I, maybe the first two. >> Yeah. >> If I remember right? So I've been at pretty much all of them along the way, but it's been unbelievable what VMworld has done for technology on making other companies realize how much bringing the network, your community together, really matters. >> The community piece, John, I want to give thoughts, was to me my observation in the past ten years has been, resiliency comes up, all the different changes in the landscape that we've seen, from the early days of theCUBE, now, to now, much different world. But you look at some of the things, the v0dgeball, the vBrownBags, the vundergrounds, all these things that were organic. VMworlds community when they find something that's good they double down on it, it hangs around, it doesn't really go away, you've got all these cool things happening. >> Well that's the secret of bringing people together both as a community of practice around their professional activity and raising the bar in their profession, their domain, and all that other good stuff happens. I think there's definitely some Vschool and PhD case studies to be written about the value of relationships and trust and ecosystem within VMware. Sure, Microsoft exists, there's other conversations going on in technology. But I think VMWare's is particularly interesting. I wanted to say though, from ten years, I mean ten years ago there was a lot of talk about private cloud, and true cloud, and all that sort of stuff, and you guys handle that at Wikibon, and SiliconANGLE, and theCUBE. But, the funny thing is now there's still a conversation going on around how dumb multicloud is and hybrid cloud is for this certain set of people. On the flip side there's trillions of dollars, much of whom is showing up, will be showing up in San Francisco next week. Trillions of dollars of business, you know, this year, solving real world problems today and not being such a pure architecturally or, I don't know, it just seems like, it's just, I'm just mystified that there's still all this multicloud is bad conversation. >> Well I think you brought up a point. The survey we were just talking about really kind of highlights what is becoming a thousand flower blooming kind of enablement happening. The societal challenges that are out there are being solved by software. And if you look at the focus this year of applications, microservices, it's really an application conversation. And it's so much that the infrastructure has to enable that, so finally, maybe this next ten years will be not about the under pinnings. >> So you're saying the next ten won't be the year of VDI? >> Laughing: I think that already kind of happened didn't it? >> It's a huge success, it's called the internet, right, smartphones. Good stuff guys. Thanks for coming on, appreciate it, good survey. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you. >> John, thanks for coming on. A special CUBE conversation here previewing VMworld 2019 and the survey that they are talking about on Wednesday at 12:30 looking at burn out, check it out, by Cohesity, and John Troyer, TechReckoning, great survey. It's theCUBE, CUBE Conversation, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. [upbeat music]

(bright orchestral music) >> Hello everyone, and welcome to theCUBE Conversations here in Palo Alto Studios. For theCUBE, I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media inc. My next guest is Bruce Arthur, who's the Vice President of engineering at Banter.ai. Good friend, we've known each other for years, VP of engineering, developer, formerly at Apple. >> Yes. >> Worked on all the big products; the iPad-- had the the tin foil on your windows back in the day during Steve Jobs' awesome run there. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you, it's good to be here. >> Yeah, great, you've got a ton of experience and I want to get your perspective as a developer, VP of engineering, entrepreneur, you're doing a startup around AI. Let's have a little banter. >> Sure. >> Banter.ai is a little bit a chat bot, but the rage is DevOps. Software really models change, infrastructure as code, cloud computing. Really a renaissance of software development going on right now. >> It is, it's changing a lot. >> What's your view on this? >> Well, so, years and years ago you would work really hard on your software. You would package it up in a box and you'd send it over the wall and you hope it works. And that seems very quaint now because now you write your software, you deploy it the first day, and you change it six times that day, and you're A/B-testing it, you're driving it forward, it's so much more interactive. It does require a different skillset. It also doesn't, how do I say this carefully? It used to be very easy to be craft, to have high craft and make a very polished product, but you didn't know if it was going to work. Today you know if it's going to work, but you often don't get to making sure it's high quality, high craft, high value. >> John: So, the iteration >> Exactly, the iteration runs so fast, which is highly valuable, but you sort of just a little bit of you miss the is this really something I am proud of and I can really work with it because you know, now the product definition can change so quickly, which is awesome but it is a big change. >> And that artisan crafting thing is interesting, but now some are saying that the UX side is interesting because, if you get the back end working, and you're iterating, you can still bring that artisan flavor back. We heard that cloud computing vendors like Amazon, and I was just in China for Alibaba, they're trying to bring this whole design artisan culture back. Your thoughts on the whole artisan craft in software, because now you have two stages, you have deploy, iterate, and then ultimately polish. >> Right, so, I think it's interesting, it used to be, engineering is so expensive and time-consuming. You have to design it upfront and you make one version of it and you're done. That has changed now that engineering has gotten easier. You have better tools, we have better things, you can make six versions and that used to be, so back in the day at Apple, you would make six versions, five of which Steve would hate and throw out, and eventually they would get better and better and better and then you would have something you're proud of. Now those are just exposed. Now everybody sees those, it's a very different process. So you, I think, the idea that you. Engineering used to be this scarce resource. It's becoming easier now to have many versions and have more engineers working on stuff, so now it is much more can I have three design teams, can they compete, can they make all good ideas, and then who's going to be the editor? Who evaluates them and decides I like this from this one, I like that, and now let's put this together to make the right product. >> So, at Apple, you mentioned Steve would reject, well, that's well-documented. >> Sure. >> It's publicly out there that he would like, really look at the design-side. Was it Waterfall-based, was it Agile, Scrum, did you guys, was it like, do you lay it all out in front of him and he points at it? What were some of the work flows like with Steve Jobs? >> So, when he was really excited about something he would want to meet with them every week. He'd want to see progress every week. He'd give lots of feedback every week, there'd be new ideas. It was very Steve-focused. I think the more constructive side of it was the design teams were always thinking about What can we build, how do we put it in front of him, and I remember there was a great quote from a designer that said. It's not that Steve designs great things, it's that you show him three things, and if you throw him three bad things, he'll pick the least bad. If you show him three great things, he'll pick the most great, But it's not, it was more about the, you've got to iterate in the process, you've got to try ideas, you take ideas from different people and some of them, like, they sound like a great idea. When we talk, it sounds really good. You build it, and you're like, that's just not, that's just not right. So, you want, how do I say this? You don't want to lock yourself in up front. You want to imagine them, you want to build them, you want to try 'em. >> And that's, I mean, I've gotten to know the family over the years, too, through some of the Palo Alto interactions, and that's the kind of misperception of Steve Jobs, was that he was the guy. He enabled people, he had that ethos that-- >> He was the editor, it's an old school journalism metaphor, which is, he had ideas, he wanted, but he also, he ran the team. He wanted to have people bring their ideas and come in. And then he decided, this is good, this is not. That's better, you can do better, let's try this. Or, sometimes, this whole thing stinks. It's just not going anywhere. So, like, it was much more of that. Now it's applied to software, and he was a marketing genius, about sort of knowing what people were going to go for, but there was a little bit of a myth for it, that there's one man designing everything. That is a very saleable marketing story. >> The mythical man. (laughs) >> Well, it's powerful, but no, there's a lot of people, and getting the best work of all those people. >> I mean, he's said on some of the great videos I've watched on YouTube over the years, Hire the best people, only work with the best, and they'll bring good stuff to the table. Now, I want to bring that kind of metaphor, one step further for this great learning lesson, again it's all well-documented on YouTube. Plenty of Steve videos there, but now when you go to DevOps, you mention the whole quality thing and you got to ship fast, iterate, you know there's a lot of moving fast break stuff as Zuckerberg would say, of Facebook, although he's edited his tune to say move fast and be reliable. (laughing) Welcome to the enterprise, welcome to software and operations. This is now a scale game at the enterprise side 'cause, you know, you start seeing open source software grow so much now, where a lot of the intellectual property might be only 10% of software. >> Right. >> You might be using other pieces. You're packaging it so that when you get it to the market, how do bring that culture? How do you get that innovation of, Okay, I'm iterating fast, how do I maintain the quality. What are some of your thoughts on that? Because you've got machine learning out there, you've got these cool things happening. >> Yup. So, you want, how do I say this? You just, you really need to leave time to schedule it. It needs to be in your list. There's a lot of figuring out what are we going to build and you have to try things, iterate things, see if they resonate with consumers. See if they resonate with people who want to pay. See if they resonate with investors. You have to figure than out fast, but then you have to know that, okay, this is a good prototype. Now I have to make it work better because the first version wouldn't scale well, now it has to scale, now it has to work right for people, now you have to have a review of: here's the bugs, here's the things that are not working. Why does this chatbot stop responding sometimes? What is causing that? Now, the great story is, with good DevOps, you actually have a system that's very good at finding and tracking those problems. In the old world, so the old world with the shrink-wrap software, you'd throw it over the fence. If it misbehaves, you will never know. Today you know. You've got alerts, you've got pagers going off, you've got logs, >> It's instrumented big-time. >> Yeah, exactly, you can find that stuff. So, since you can actually make, you can make very high-quality software because you have so much more data about what's going on with it, it's nice. And actually, chatbot software has this fascinating little side effect, with, because it's all chats and it's all text, there are no irreproducible bugs. You can go back and look at exactly what happened. I have a recording, I know exactly what happened, I know exactly what came in, I know what came out, and then I know that this failure happened. So, it's very reproducible, sort of, it's nice you can, it doesn't always work this way, but it's very easy to track down problems. >> It's event-based, it's really easy to manage. >> Exactly, and it's just text. You can just read it. It's not like I have to debug hacks, it's just these things were said and this thing died. >> No core dumps. (laughs) >> No, there's nothing that requires sophisticated analysis, well the code is one thing, but like, the sequence of events is very human-readable, very understandable. >> Alright, so let's talk about the younger generation. So, we've been around the block, you and I. We've talked, certainly many times around town, about the shifts, and we love these new waves. A lot of great waves coming in, we've seen many waves. What's going on, in your mind, with the younger generation? Because this is a, some exciting things happening. Decentralized internet. >> Bruce: Yup. >> There's blockchain, getting all the attention. Outside of the hype, Alpha VCs, Alpha engineers, Alpha entrepreneurs are really honing in on blockchain because they see the potential. >> Sure. >> Early people are seeing it. Then you've got cloud, obviously unlimited compute potentially, the new, you know, kind of agile market. All these young guys, they never shipped, actually never loaded Linux on a server. (laughing) So, like, what are you seeing for the younger guys? And what do you see as someone who's experienced, looking down at the next, you know, 20 year run we see. >> So, I think what I see that's most exciting is that we now have people solving very non-technical problems with technology. I think it used to be, you could build a computer, you could write code, but then, like, your space was limited to the computer in front of you. Like, I can do input and outputs. I can put things on the screen, I can make a video game, but it's in this box. Now everyone's thinking of much bigger, Solving bigger problems. >> John: Yeah, healthcare, we're seeing verticals. >> Yeah, healthcare's a massive one. You can, operation things, shipping products. I mean, who would've thought Amazon was going to be delivering things, basically. I mean, they're using technology to solve the physical delivery of objects. That is, the space of what people are tackling is massive. It' no longer just about silicon and programming, it's sort of, any problem out there, there's someone trying to apply technology, which is awesome and I think that's because these people these youngsters, they're digital natives. >> Yeah. >> They've come to expect that, of course video conferencing works, of course all these other items work. That I just need to figure out how to solve problems with them, and I'm hopeful we're going to see more human-sized problems solved. I think, you know, we have, technology has maybe exacerbated a few things and dislocated, cost a lot of people jobs. Disconnected some people from other sort of stabilizing forces, >> Fake news. (laughs) >> Fake news, you know, we need-- >> John: It's consequences, side effects. >> I hope we get people solving those problems because fake news should now be hard to solve. They'll figure it out, I think, but, like, the idea is, we need to, technology does have a bit of a responsibility to solve, fix some of the crap that it broke. Actually, there's things that need, old structures, journalism is an old profession. >> Yeah. >> And it used to actually have all these wonderful benefits, but when the classified business went down the tubes, it took all that stuff down. >> Yeah. >> And there needs to be a venue for that. There needs to be new outlets for people to sort of do research, look things up, and hold people to account. >> Yeah, and hopefully some of our tools we'll be >> I hope so. >> pulling out at Silicon Angle you'll be seeing some new stuff. Let's talk about, like just in general, some of the fashionable coolness around engineering. Machine learning, AI obviously tops the list. Something that's not as sexy, or as innovative things. >> Sure. >> Because you have machines and industrial manufacturing plant equipment to people's devices. Obviously you worked at Apple, so you understand that piece, with the watch and everything. >> Yup, >> So you've got, that's an internet, we're things, people are things too. So, machines and people are at the edge of the network. So, you've got this new kind of concept. What gets you excited? Talk about how you feel about those trends. >> So, there's a ton going on there. I think what's amazing is the idea that all these sensors and switches and all the remote pieces can start to have smarts on them. I think the downside of that is some of the early IoT stuff, you know, has a whole open SSL stack in it. And, you know, that can be out of date, and when you have security problems with that now your light switch has access to your tax returns and that's not really what you want. So, I think there's definitely, there's a world coming, I think, at a technical level, we need to make operating systems and tools and networking protocols that aren't general purpose because general purpose tools are hackable. >> John: Yeah. >> I need to have a sensor and a switch that know how to talk to each other, and that's it. They can't rewrite code, they can't rewrite their firmware, they can't, like, I want to be able to know that, you have a nice office here, if somebody came in and tried to hack your switches, would you ever know? And the answer's like, you'd have no idea, but when you have things that are on your network and that serve you, if they're a general, if they're a little general purpose computing device, they're a mess. Like, you know, a switch is simple. A microphone, a microphone is simple. There's an output from it, it needs, I think we, >> So differentiated software for device. >> Well, let's get back to old school. You studied operating systems back in the day. >> Yeah. >> A process can do whatever the hell it wants. It can read from memory, it can write to disk, it can talk to all these buses. It's a very, it can do, it's very general purpose. I don't want that in my switch. I want my switch to be sort of, much more of these old little micro-controller. >> Bounded. >> Yeah, it's in a little box. I mean, so the phone and the Mac have something called Sandbox, which sort of says, you get a smaller view of the world. You get a little piece of the disk, you can't see everything else, and those are parts of it, but I think you need even more. You need, sort of, this really, I don't want a general purpose thing, I want a very specific thing that says I'm allowed to do this and I'm allowed to talk to that server; I don't have access to the internet. I've got access to that server. >> You mentioned operating systems. I mean, obviously I grew up in the computer science genre of the '80s and you did as well. That was a revolution around Unix. >> Yes. >> And then Berkeley, BSD, and all that stuff that happened around the systems world, operating systems, was really the pioneers in computing at that time. It's interesting with cloud, it's almost a throwback now to systems thinking. >> Bruce: It's true, yeah. >> You know, people looking at, and you're discussing it. >> Bruce: Yeah, Yeah. >> It's a systems problem. >> Yeah, it is. >> It's just not in a box. >> Right, and I think we witnessed the, let's get everyone a general purpose computer and see what they can do. And that was amazing, but now you're like I don't want everything to be a general I want very specific, I want very little thing, dedicated things that do this really well. I don't want my thermostat actually tracking when I'm in the house. You know, I want it to know, eh, maybe there's someone in the house, but I don't want it to know it's me. I don't want it reporting to Google what's going on. I want it to track my temperature and manage that. >> Our Wikibon team calls the term Unigrid, I call it hypergrid because essentially it's grid computer; there's no differentiation between on-premise and cloud. >> Right. >> It's one pool of resource of compute and things processes. >> It is, although I think, and that's interesting, you want that, but again you want it, how do I say this? I get a little nervous when all of my data goes to some cloud that I can't control. Like, I would love if, I'll put it this way. If I have a camera in my house, and imagine I put security cameras up, I want that to sort of see what's going on, I don't want it to publish the video to anywhere that's out of my control. If it publishes a summary that says, oh, like, someone came to your door, I'm like, okay, that's a good, reasonable thing to know and I would want to get that. So, Palo Alto recently added, there's traffic cameras that are looking at traffic, and they record video, but everyone's very nervous about that fact. They don't want to be recorded on video. So, the camera, this is actually really good, the camera only reports number of cars, number of bikes, number of pedestrians, just raw numbers. So you're pushing the processing down to the end and you only get these very anonymous statistics out of it and that's the right model. I've got a device, it can do a lot of sophisticated processing, but it gives nice summary data that is very public, I don't think anyone's really >> There's a privacy issue there that they've factored into the design? >> Yes, exactly. It's privacy and it's also the appropriateness of the data, you don't want, yeah, people don't want a camera watching them when they go by, but they're happy and they're like, oh, yeah, that street has a big increase in traffic, And there's a lot of, there were accidents here and there's people running red lights. That's valuable knowledge, not the fact that it's you in your Tesla and you almost hit me. No. (laughs) >> Yeah, or he's speeding, slow down. >> Exactly, yeah, or actually if you recorded speeders the fact that there's a lot of speeding is very interesting. Who's doing it, okay, people get upset if that's recorded. >> Yeah, I'm glad that Palo Alto is solving their traffic problem, Palo Alto problems, as we say. In general, security's been a huge issue. We were talking before we came on, about just the security nightmare. >> Bruce: Yes. >> A lot of companies are out there scratching their heads. There's so much of digital transformation happening, that's the buzzword in the industry. What does that mean from your standpoint? Because engineers are now moving to the front lines. Developers, engineering, because now there's a visibility to not just the software, it's an end goal. They call it outcome. Do you talk to customers a lot around, through your entrepreneurial venture, around trying to back requirements into product and yet deliver value? Do you get any insight from the field of kind of problems, you know, businesses are generally tryna solve with tech? >> So, that's interesting, I think when we try to start tech companies, we usually have ideas and then we go test that premise on customers. Perhaps I'm not as adaptable as I should be. We're not actually going to customers and asking them what they want. We're asking them if this is the kind of thing that would solve their problems. And usually they're happy to talk to us. The tough one, then, is then are they going to become paying customers, there's talking and there's paying, and they're different lines. >> I mean, certainly is validation. >> Exactly, that's when you really know that they care. It is, it's a tough question. I think there's always, there's a category of entrepreneur that's always very knowledgable about a small number of customers and they solve their problems, and those people are successful and they're often, They often are more services-based, but they're solving problems because they know people. They know a lot of people, they know what their paying point are. >> Alright, so here's the real question I want to know is, have you been back to Apple in the new building? >> Have I been to, I have not been in the spaceship. (laughing) I have not been in the spaceship yet. I actually understand that in order to have the event there, they actually had to stop work on the rest of the building because the construction process makes everything so dirty; and they did not want everyone to see dirty windows, so they actually halted the construction, they scrubbed down the trees, they had the event, and now it's, but now it's back. >> Now it's back to, >> So, I'll get there at some point. >> Bruce Arthur it the Vice President of Banter.ai, entrepreneur, formerly of Apple, good friend, Final question for you, just what are you excited about these days and as you look out at the tooling and the computer science and the societal impact that is seen with cloud and all these technologies, and open source, what do you, what are you excited about? >> I'm most excited, I think we actually have now enough computing resources and enough tools at hand that we can actually go back and tackle some harder computer science problems. I think there's things that used to be so big that you're like, well, that's just not, That's too much data, we could never solve that. That's too much, that would take, you know, that would take a hundred computers a hundred years to figure out. Those are problems now that are becoming very tractable, and I think it's been the rise of, yeah, it starts with Google, but some other companies that sort of really made these very large problems are now tractable, and they're now solvable. >> And open source, your opinion on open source these days? >> Open source is great. >> Who doesn't love more code? (laughs) >> Well, I should back this up, Open source is the fastest way to share and to make progress. There are times where you need what's called proprietary, but in other words valuable, when you need valuable engineers to work on something and, you know, not knowing the providence or where something comes from is a little sticky, I think there's going to be space for both. I think open source is big, but there's going to be-- >> If you have a core competency, you really want to code it. >> Exactly, you want to write that up and you-- >> You can still participate in the communities. >> Right, and I think open source is also, it's awesome when it's following. If there's something else in front, it follows very fast, it does a very good job. It's very thorough, sometimes it doesn't know where to go and it sort of meanders, and that's when other people have advantages. >> Collective intelligence. >> Exactly. >> Bruce, thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it, good to see you. This is a Cube Conversation here in the Palo Alto studio, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (light electronic music)

(light orchestral music) >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Cube Conversation here at the Palo Alto studios for theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder of SiliconANGLE Media. We're here for some news analysis with Peter Smails, the CMO of Datos.IO D-a-t-o-s dot I-O. Hot new start up with some news. Peter was just here for a thought leader segment with Chris Cummings talking about the industry breakdown. But the news is hot, prior to re:Invent which you will be at? >> Absolutely. >> RecoverX is the product. 2.5, it's a release. So, you've got a point release on your core product. >> Correct. >> Welcome to this conversation. >> Thanks for having me. Yeah, we're excited to share the news. Big day for us. >> All right, so let's get into the hard news. You guys are announcing a point release of the latest product which is your core flagship, RecoverX. >> Correct. >> Love the name. Love the branding of the X in there. It reminds me of the iPhone, so makes me wanna buy one. But you know ... >> We can make that happen, John. >> You guys are the X Factor. So, we've been pretty bullish on what you guys are doing. Obviously, like the positioning. It's cloud. You're taking advantage of the growth in the cloud. What is this new product release? Why? What's the big deal? What's in it for the customer? >> So, I'll start with the news, and then we'll take a small step back and sort of talk about why exactly we're doing what we're doing. So, RecoverX 2.5 is the latest in our flagship RecoverX line. It's a cloud data management platform. And the market that we're going after and the market we're disrupting is the traditional data management space. The proliferation of modern applications-- >> John: Which includes which companies? >> So, the Veritas' of the world, the Commvault's of the world, the Dell EMC's of the world. Anybody that was in the traditional-- >> 20-year-old architected data backup and recovery software. >> You stole my fun fact. (laughs) But very fair point which is that the average age approximately of the leading backup and recovery software products is approximately 20 years. So, a lot's changed in the last 20 years, not the least of which has been this proliferation of modern applications, okay? Which are geo-distributed microservices oriented and the rapid proliferation of multicloud. That disrupts that traditional notion of data management specifically backup and recovery. That's what we're going after with RecoverX. RecoverX 2.5 is the most recent version. News on three fronts. One is on our advanced recovery, and we can double-click into those. But it's essentially all about giving you more data awareness, more granularity to what data you wanna recover and where you wanna put it, which becomes very important in the multicloud world. Number two is what we call data center aware backup and recovery. That's all about supporting geo-distributed application environments, which again, is the new normal in the cloud. And then number three is around enterprise hardening, specifically around security. So, it's all about us increased flexibility and new capabilities for the multicloud environment and continue to enterprise-harden the product. >> Okay, so you guys say significant upgrade. >> Peter: Yep. >> I wanna just look at that. I'm also pretty critical, and you know how I feel on this so don't take it personal, multicloud is not a real deal yet. It's in statement of value that customers are saying-- It's coming! But cloud is here today, regular cloud. So, multicloud ... Well, what is multicloud actually mean? I mean, I can have multiple clouds but I'm not actually moving workloads across clouds, yet. >> I disagree. >> Okay. >> I actually disagree. We have multiple customers. >> All right, debunk that. >> I will debunk that. Number one use case for RecoverX is backup and recovery. But with a twist of the fact that it's for these modern applications running these geo-distributed environments. Which means it's not about backing up my data center, it's about, I need to make a copy of my data but I wanna back it up in the cloud. I'm running my application natively in the cloud, so I want a backup in the cloud. I'm running my application in the cloud but I actually wanna backup from the cloud back to my private cloud. So, that in lies a backup and recovery, and operation recovery use case that involves multicloud. That's number one. Number two use case for RecoverX is what we talk about on data mobility. >> So, you have a different definition of multicloud. >> Sorry, what was your-- Our definition of multicloud is fundamentally a customer using multiple clouds, whether it be a private on-prem GCP, AWS, Oracle, any mix and match. >> I buy that. I buy that. Where I was getting critical of was a workload. >> Okay. >> I have a workload and I'm running it on Amazon. It's been architected for Amazon. Then I also wanna run that same workload on Azure and Google. >> Okay. >> Or Oracle or somewhere else. >> Yep. >> I have to re-engineer it (laughs) to move, and I can't share the data. So, to me what multicloud means, I can run it anywhere. My app anywhere. Backup is a little bit different. You're saying the cloud environments can be multiple environments for your solution. >> That is correct. >> So, you're looking at it from the other perspective. >> Correct. The way we define ourselves is application-centric data management. And what that essentially means is we don't care what the underlying infrastructure is. So, if you look at traditional backup and recovery products they're LUN-based. So, I'm going to backup my storage LUN. Or they're VM-based. And a lot of big companies made a lot of money doing that. The problem is they are no LUN's and VM's in hybrid cloud or multicloud environment. The only thing that's consistent across application, across cloud-environments is the data and the applications that are running. Where we focus is we're 100% application-centric. So, we integrate at the database level. The database is the foundation of any application you create. We integrate there, which makes us agnostic to the underlying infrastructure. We run, just as examples, we have customers running next generation applications on-prem. We have customers running next generation applications on AWS in GCP. Any permutation of the above, and to your point about back to the multicloud we've got organizations doing backup with us but then we also have organizations using us to take copies of their backup data and put them on whatever clouds they want for things like test and refresh. Or performance testing or business analytics. Whatever you might wanna do. >> So, you're pretty flexible. I like that. So, we talked before on other segments, and certainly even this morning about modern stacks. >> Yeah. >> Modern applications. This is the big to-do item for all CXOs and CIOs. I need a modern infrastructure. I need modern applications. I need modern developers. I need modern everything. Hyper, micro, ultra. >> Whatever buzz word you use. >> But you guys in this announcement have a couple key things I wanna just get more explanation on. One, advanced recovery, backup anywhere, recover anywhere, and you said enterprise-grade security is the third thing. >> Yep. >> So, let's just break them down one at a time. Advanced recovery for Datos 2.5, RecoverX 2.5. >> Yep. >> What is advanced recovery? >> It's very specifically about providing high levels of granularity for recovering your data, on two fronts. So, the use case is, again, backup. I need to recover data. But I don't wanna necessarily recover everything. I wanna get smarter about the data I wanna recover. Or it could be for non-operational use cases, which is I wanna spin up a copy of data to run test dev or to do performance testing on. What advanced recovery specifically means is number one, we've introduced the notion of queryble recovery. And what that means is that I can say things like star dot John star. And the results returning from that, because we're application-centric, and we integrated the database, we give you visibility to that. I wanna see everything star dot John star. Or I wanna recover data from a very specific row, in a very specific column. Or I want to mask data that I do not wanna be recovered and I don't want people to see. The implications of that are think about that from a performance standpoint. Now, I only recover the data I need. So, I'm very, very high levels of granularity based upon a query. So, I'm fast from an RTO standpoint. The second part of it is for non-operational requirements I only move the data that is select to that data set. And number three is it helps you with things like GDPR compliance and PII compliance because you can mask data. So, that's query-based recovery. That's number one. The second piece of advanced recovery is what we call incremental recovery. That is granular recovery based upon a time stamp. So, you can get within individual points in time. So, you can get to a very high level of granularity based upon time. So, it's all about visibility. It's your data and getting very granular in a smart way to what you wanna recover. So, if I kind of hear what you're saying, what you're saying is essentially you built in the operational effectiveness of being effective operationally. You know, time to backup recovery, all that good RTO stuff. Restoring stuff operationally >> Peter: Very quickly. >> very fast. >> Peter: In a smart way. >> So, there's a speed game there which is table stakes. But you're real value here is all these compliance nightmares that are coming down the pike, GDPR and others. There's gonna be more. >> Peter: Absolutely. I mean, it could be HIPPA, it could be GDPR, anything that involves-- >> Policy. >> Policies. Anything that requires, we're completely policy-driven. And you can create a policy to mask certain data based upon the criteria you wanna put in. So, it's all about-- >> So you're the best of performance, and you got some tunability. >> And it's all about being data aware. It's all about being data aware. So, that's what advanced recovery is. >> Okay, backup anywhere, recover anywhere. What does that mean? >> So, what that means is the old world of backup and recovery was I had a database running in my data center. And I would say database please take a snapshot of yourself so I can make a copy. The new world of cloud is that these microservices-based modern applications typically run, they're by definition distributed, And in many cases they run distributed across they're geo-distributed. So, what data center aware backup and recovery is, use a perfect example. We have a customer. They're running their eCommerce. So, leading online restaurant reservations company. They're running their eCommerce application on-prem, interestingly enough, but it's based on Cassandra distributed database. Excuse me, MongoDB. Sorry. They're running geo-distributed, sharded MongoDB clusters. Anybody in the traditional backup and recovery their head would explode when you say that. In the modern application world, that's a completely normal use case. They have a data center in the U.S. They have a data center in the U.K. What they want is they wanna be able to do local backup and recovery while maintaining complete global consistency of their data. So again, it's about recovery time ultimately but it's also being data aware and focusing only on the data that you need to backup and recovery. So, it's about performance but then it's also about compliance. It's about governance. That's what data center aware backup is. >> And that's a global phenomenon people are having with the GO. >> Absolutely. Yeah, you could be within country. It could be any number of different things that drive that. We can do it because we're data aware-- >> And that creates complexity for the customer. You guys can take that complexity away >> Correct. >> From the whole global, regional where the data can sit. >> Correct. I'd say two things actually. To give the customers credit, the customers building these apps or actually getting a lot smarter about what they're data is and where they're data is. >> So they expect this feature? >> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I wouldn't call it table stakes cause we're the only kids on the block that can do it. But this is in direct response to our customers that are building these new apps. I wanna get into some of the environmental and customer drivers in a second. I wanna nail the last segment down. Cause I wanna unpack the whole why is this trend happening? What's the gestation period? What's the main enabler for you? But okay, final point on the significant announcements. My favorite topic enterprise-grade security. What the hell does that mean? First of all, from your standpoint the industry's trying to solve the same thing. Enterprise-grade security, what are you guys providing in this? >> Number one, it's basically security protocol. So, TLS and SSL. This is weed stuff. TLS, SSL, so secure protocol support. It's integration with LDAP. So, if organizations are running, primarily if they're running on-prem and they're running in an LDAP environment, we're support there. And then we've got Kerberos support for Kerberos authentication. So, it's all about just checking the boxes around the different security >> So, this is like in between >> and transport protocol. >> the toes, the details around compliance, identity management. >> Peter: Bingo. >> I mean we just had Centrify's CyberConnect conference, and you're seeing a lot of focus on identity. >> Absolutely. And the reason that that's sort of from a market standpoint the reason that these are very important now is because the applications that we're supporting these are not science experiments. These are eCommerce applications. These are core business applications that mainstream enterprises are running, and they need to be protected and they're bringing the true, classic enterprise security, authentication, authorization requirements to the table. >> Are you guys aligning with those features? Or is there anything significant in that section? >> From an enterprise security standpoint? It's primarily about we provide the support, so we integrate with all of those environments and we can check the boxes. Oh, absolutely TLS. Absolutely, we've got that box checked because-- >> So, you're not competing with other cybersecurity? >> No, this is purely we need to do this. This is part of our enterprise-- >> This is where you partner. >> Peter: Well, no. For these things it's literally just us providing the protocol support. So, LDAP's a good example. We support LDAP. So, we show up and if somebody's using my data management-- >> But you look at the other security solutions as a way to integrate with? >> Yeah. >> Not so much-- >> Absolutely, no. This has nothing to do with the competition. It's just supporting ... I mean Google has their own protocol, you know, security protocols, so we support those. So, does Amazon. >> I really don't want to go into the customer benefits. We'll let the folks go to the Datos website, d-a-t-o-s dot i-o is the website, if you wanna check out all their customer references. I don't wanna kind of drill on that. I kind of wanna really end this segment on the real core issue for me is reading the tea leaves. You guys are different. You're now kind of seeing some traction and some growth. You're a new kind of animal in the zoo, if you will. (Peter laughs) You've got a relevant product. Why is it happening now? And I'm trying to get to understanding Cloud Oss is enabling a lot of stuff. You guys are an effect of that, a data point of what the cloud is enabled as a venture. Everything that you're doing, the value you create is the function of the cloud. >> Yes. >> And how data is moving. Where's this coming from? Is it just recently? Is it a gestation period of a few years? Where did this come from? You mentioned some comparisons like Oracle. >> So, I'll answer that in sort of, we like to use history as our guide. So, I'll answer that both in macro terms, and then I'll answer it in micro terms. From a macro term standpoint, this is being driven by the proliferation of new data sources. It's the easiest way to look at it. So, if you let history be your guide. There was about a seven to eight year proliferation or gap between proliferation of Oracle as the primary traditional relational database data source and the advent of Veritas who really defined themselves as the defacto standard for traditional on-prem data center relational data management. You look at that same model, you'll look at the proliferation of VMware. In the late 90s, about a seven to eight year gestation with the rapid adoption of Veeam. You know the early days a lot of folks laughed at Veeam, like, "Who's gonna backup VMs? People aren't gonna use VMs in the enterprise. Now, you looked at Veeam, great company. They've done some really tremendous things carving out much more than a niche providing backup and recovery and availability in a VM-based environment. The exact same thing is happening now. If you go back six to seven years from now, you had the early adoption of the MongoDBs, the Cassandras, the Couches. More recently you've got a much faster acceleration around the DynamoDBs and the cloud databases. We're riding that same wave to support that. >> This is a side effect of the enabling of the growth of cloud. >> Yes. >> So, similar to what you did in VMware with VMs and database for Oracle you guys are taking it to the next level. >> These new data sources are completely driven by the fact that the cloud is enabling this completely distributed, far more agile, far more dynamic, far less expensive application deployment model, and a new way of providing data management is required. That's what we do. >> Yeah, I mean it's a function of maturity, one. As Jeff Rickard, General Manager of theCube, always says, when the industry moves to it's next point of failure, in this case failure is problem and you solve. So, the headaches that come from the awesomeness of the growth. >> Absolutely. And to answer that micro-wise briefly. So, that was the macro. The micro is the proliferation of, the movement from monolithic apps to microservices-based app, it's happening. And the cloud is what's enabling them. The move from traditional on-prem to hybrid cloud is absolutely happening. That's by definition the cloud. The third piece which is cloud-centric is the world's moving from a scale up world to an elastic-compute, elastic storage model. We call that the modern IT stack. Traditional backup and recovery, traditional data management doesn't work in the new modern IT stack. That's the market we're planning. That's the market we're disrupting is all that traditional stuff moving to the modern IT stack. >> Okay, Datos IO announcing a 2.5 release of RecoverX, their flagship product, their start up growing out of Los Gatos. Peter Smails here, the CMO. Where ya gonna be next? What's going on-- I know we're gonna see you re:Invent in a week in a half. >> Absolutely. So, we've got two stops. Well, actually the next stop on the tour is re:Invent. So, absolutely looking forward to being back on theCUBE at re:Invent. >> And the company feels good about those things are good. You've got good money in the bank. You're growing. >> We feel fantastic. It's fascinating to watch as things develop. The conversations we have now versus even six months ago. It's sort of the tipping point of people get it. You sort of explain, "Oh, yeah it's data management from modern applications. Are you deploying modern applications?" Absolutely. >> Share one example to end this segment on what you hear over and over again from customers that illuminates what you guys are about as a company, the DNA, the value preposition, and their impact on results and value for customers. >> So, I'll use a case study as an example. You know, we're the world's largest home improvement retailers. Old way, was they ran their multi-billion dollar eCommerce infrastructure. Running on IBM Db2 database. Running in their on-prem data center. They've moved their world. They're now running, they've re-architected their application. It's now completely microservices-based running on Cassandra, deployed 100% in Google cloud platform. And they did that because they wanted to be more agile. They wanted to be more flexible. It's a far more cost effective deployment model. They are all in on the cloud. And they needed a next generation backup and recovery data protection, data management solution which is exactly what we do. So, that's the value. Backup's not a new problem. People need to protect data and they need to be able to take better advantage of the data. >> All right, so here's the final, final question. I'm a customer watching this video. Bottom line maybe, I'm kind of hearing all this stuff. When do I call you? What are the signals? What are the little smoke signals I see in my organization burning? When do I need to call you guys, Datos? >> You should call Datos IO anytime, if you're doing anything with development of modern applications, number one. If you're doing anything with hybrid cloud you should call us. Because you're gonna need to reevaluate your overall data management strategy it's that simple. >> All right, Peter Smails, the CMO of Datos, one of the hot companies here in Silicon Valley, out of Los Gatos, California. Of course, we're in Palo Alto at theCube Studios. I'm John Furrier. This is theCUBE conversation. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

(motivating electronic music) >> Hello everyone, welcome to theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, the co-host and co-founder of Silicon Angle Media. We're here for a CUBE Conversation in our studios in Palo Alto, California. Here with two great guests inside the industry, to help illuminate the cloud computing conversation, really around what's coming up with Amazon re:Invent. But more importantly, the major advances happening in the digital transformation around IT and around developers and around cloud, and how that's impacting business. Our guests are Chris Comings, who's with the Chasm Group, consult and they help people, and former industry executive at NetApp, and (mumbles) the storage company. Peter Smails, the CMO of Datos.io data, and then he's the CMO there. Now, new progressive solutions. So guys, great solution. And Peter, I know you got news. We're gonna do another segment on your big news coming out, so we're gonna hold that off. >> Cool. >> The game has changed, right? >> Mm-hmm (affirmative). >> And we talked, with Chris and I had a one on one about this. But the industry conversation, there's people that are in the know, and people who are trying to figure out what's happening and how it impacts their business. CIO, CEOs, CDOs, chief data officers, chief security officers. There's a lot of things on the plate of businesses. >> Right. >> Big time. >> Right. >> So let's unpack this, and let's illuminate what it means. So cloud computing, Peter, what's your take on this, because Datos just takes a unique approach? I love your solution. A lot of people are liking this solution, but it's nuanced, because it's cloud-- >> Yeah. >> That's driving you. >> Yeah. >> What's the big driver? >> So the big driver, you said at the top of the discussion, the big driver is digital transformation. Digital transformation. Organizations are trying to be more data-driven. Okay, this is completely throwing, throwing traditional IT amok, because we're not living in the traditional world anymore of all my data sits within a single data center, I run my traditional monolithic applications. That's changed. The world is no longer running in a traditional four wall data center, and the world's moved away from the traditional view of scale-up architectures to elastic compute, shared nothing, elastic storage environment. So what's happening is, you've got the challenge of trying to essentially support traditional transformation initiatives, and it's just throwing all the underlying infrastructure foundations that an entire generation of IT professionals has known (laughs) into disarray. So everything's a little bit caddywhompus right now. >> Mm-hmm (affirmative), Chris? >> Well, and like you said, those people all have gone from being implementers to, they're moving to being developers. >> Right. >> And it completely changes their, it has to be a big change in their mindset. And it changes the management folks, the CIOs, the CDOs, the people that you interact with on a daily basis, right? >> Absolutely. >> Because these people are all trying to kind of come up to the next generation and get there. >> So you talked about, we got re:Invent coming up in a couple of weeks and, I think reinvent's a perfect term for this entire conversation, because everybody is reinventing themselves. The customer's reinventing themselves, the IT organizations are reinventing themselves, the individual roles within organizations are changing, and the whole evolution of dev ops versus traditional roles, so it is really-- >> And the vendors are all trying to reinvent themselves, too. >> Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. >> Well there's a lot of noise, so the customer's being bombarded with pitches. And if I here one more digital transformation pitch, without substance, I still don't understand. So in the spirit of trying to understand, first of all, I believe in digital transformation, but you can't just say the word, you gotta to prove it. But there's hard to prove a new approach or they've never seen it before. It's kind of like Steve Jobs would say, "If you want a Blackberry, that's a phone, "but the iPhone's not what you've seen before." But everyone loved it, changed the industry. That dynamic's happening in the cloud where for instance, your solution, some might not have seen before, but it's highly relevant to the user behavior expectations of the new environment. Okay, so this is the issue. What is the new environment specifically around digital transformation? Because I have an investment in storage. If I'm a customer, I bought a zillion drives from NetApp and EMC. I got data domain backup and, I got a perimeter, I have all this stuff, and now I've got this cloud thing bursting, and I got some analytics running there, and then I got the hot shot young developers banging out apps, and they want to put it in the cloud and... and security, I mean, what's going on? >> You wanna take that one first? And then I'll jump in. >> Can't I just buy more storage? >> Yeah. (Men laugh) Hey, just, no John, you don't just buy more storage, you upgrade from spinning to flash. I mean, that's really, >> There you go. >> That's really, really cutting edge right there. No I think what a lot of you see what they're doing is basically saying listen, for all this secondary, tertiary, quaternary, I mean, I didn't even know what that word was. But your second, your third, your fourth cuts of that data, move that all to the cloud, get that out of my environment. I'm not gonna be submersed in dealing with all of that anymore. Then maybe I can clear out some of my headaches, so I can actually focus on that primary cut, and what do I do about that primary cut? And that's where these completely new approaches come into play, and I, Peter I don't know if you call that hybrid, or multi-aire or what? But it is basically just trying to get some of that noise out of their system, so they can focus on the thing that's most valuable. >> So the way I would make that tangible John, is sort of, to us it all rolls down to the notion of the modern IT stack, okay? So essentially, the way you respond to digital transformation which, is all about being more agile, and some of the buzzwords you hear, but they're trying to be more, customers are trying to be, vendors are trying to be, or excuse me, customers or organizations are trying to be more customer-centric. They're trying to be more business driven, more data driven, okay great. If that's their initiative-- >> That's a mission. That's a mission. >> That's a mission. >> Yep. >> What that means for IT specifically is a fundamental rearchitecture of the underlying stack, okay, along a couple vectors, which is, organizations are building these new applications. They're fundamentally rearchitecting applications. What used to be a monolithic-oriented, traditional, relational, on-prem database is now running in a microservices, highly distributed configuration. That's vector number one, implication. Implication number two is we're absolutely in the mainstream of hybrid cloud, okay? You may be running all your apps on-prem, but you're still connected in some way to the cloud, for archiving, for BI, for TASDAV, whatever the case may be. And number three is the world just moved completely to an elastic, compute, shared nothing world. So we call that the modern IT stack. So the modern IT stack, modern infrastructure today-- >> Share nothing, you said? >> Shared nothing, the cloud is-- >> Oh, shared nothing. >> Yeah, shared nothing, shared nothing storage, shared nothing compute, that's that's, those are the foundations of a cloud based architecture. >> Is that called serverless? >> You could call it serverless as well. >> Okay. >> But, if you look at the modern IT stack, so to your point, the modern IT stack, modern infrastructure today is EC2. >> Mm-hmm (affirmative). >> Modern storage is S3. It could be object prem, object storage sitting on-prem. You know, modern applications are IOT. Modern, or our customer 360, IOT. Modern databases are dynamo DB. It's MongoDB, it's the number two-- >> Right. >> database in the cloud. So to answer your question very specifically, to make it tangible, that's to us the fundamental indication is, that new modern IT stack, throws storage into disarray, it throws data management into disarray-- >> It's an operational disruption. >> It's an operational disruption. >> All right, so let's backup for a second, because I think you nailed the thread I was trying to connect on. So let's take MongoDB, your reference to that being, where'd that come from? We all know why, the LAMP stack, it was one of the drivers. But developers drove that. >> That's right. >> So it wasn't the IT department recommending Mango. >> Right (laughs). >> so the developers were driving that because of ease of use. Now there's some scalability with Mango, we all know about, but what that means is, no one gives a crap if it can scale, because you already hit your product market fit. Then you could rearchitect, so you're seeing this use case of developers driving some of the behavior. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Mm-hmm (affirmative). >> Hence containers, docker containers, and the role of Kubernetes. >> Kubernetes, yep. >> So if that's the case, how does an enterprise customer deal with that vector? Because now the developers are dictating the stacks. >> Mm-hmm (affirmative). >> Well, I-- >> Is it a free-for-all right now? I mean, this is... >> I think both of those guys are, think of it as they used to be warring factions, dev and ops, and the fact that we say the word dev ops right now is kind of a, it's kind of an oxymoron, right? Because they don't actually know each other and actually don't naturally talk to one another, and they go, "That's the other guy who's holding me back." >> Yeah, it's the old-- >> They look at, yeah, yeah. >> Goes over the fence. >> And so now, you've got folks that are really trying to, trying to bring it together a little bit more on that front and I think that, we're starting to see some technologies where people can say, "Not only can I use that "to accelerate my developments," so meets the dev criteria, but also the ops people say, "You know what, that stuff's not so bad. "I could actually work with that." >> Right, and then there's IT going, "Uh-oh," because they're basically sitting there on the catcher's side, so to your point it's, the dev ops, it is very much of an application-led environment. The tip of the spear for the new IT stack is absolutely application-led. And IT is challenged with essentially aligning to that, collaborating with that, and keeping up with that pace of change. >> And John, on this point, I think this is where, back to re:Invent, and really the role of AWS. This all started because of that. When a developer can just say, "I don't even know who those IT people are over there, "But I can spin up my S3 instance, "and I can start working against it." They start moving down the path, they show it to somebody, someone says, "Wow, that's great stuff, I want that." >> John: Yeah, right. >> Guess what? We need to make sure that that's enterprise class and scalable and then that's where that whole thing starts, and then it becomes that pull-ya-apart, "Oh God, what did these developer people do? "I'm gonna inherit this? "What the heck am I gonna do with it?" Now it's, we've gotta move that to be more symbiotic up front. >> I remember talking to both Pat Gelsinger and Andy Jassy years ago, I think maybe five years ago, and I asked the question, "What enables developers?" What is enabling point? Does infrastructure dictate developer behavior? Or do developers dictate infrastructure behavior? This was years ago, when the dev ops was an early-on movement. Clearly the vote is there. Developers are driving infrastructure. Hence the dev ops infrastructure, >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> as code model, that's proven. Jassy was interesting because he looked at it that way and said, "Yeah, we saw the same thing," and they've never wavered, Amazon's stayed on the course, and they've just been running like a machine, like a, just pounding it out. I asked Pat Gelsinger, he once positioned the AWS as the developer cloud. Kinda in, I wouldn't say depositioning them, but he was basically pointing out, they have a developer cloud. Now Amazon's the enterprise cloud. >> Mm-hmm (affirmative). >> Because they've developers are now a big driver of that, and the scale with data is actually turning out to be a better security environment. >> Right. >> For cyber. >> Right, it might just-- >> So it's cloud's winning. >> Cloud is winning and just sort of just take that one step further. It's always ultimately, the winner's going to, it's Darwinism, it's like the winner's gonna be the one with the richest ecosystem. And AWS is becoming that enterprise eco. And you could argue, I mean, GCP's fighting to be in there, Oracle's not going to go quietly into that dark night. You've got multiple public cloud vendors. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> But the reality is that he who has the biggest, he or she who has the biggest ecosystem is gonna win, and that's right now is AWS driving that bus. >> All right, so I need to see those glasses for a second, and then want to go into another line of question here. (men laugh) >> You may use those. >> Oh who's, oh you put them on, all right good, as long as he's wearing them. >> He that wear-- >> You know, on that front too, on that front too, I would think we started back where VM was the big new thing, and here we go with VM's, and then all of a sudden we're coming up and we're saying, "Yeah, now there's containers." And so now we're gonna see this move to, we want to micro-package these services, and be able to aggregate them. Well you know the average IT shop that I would be talking to out there is just still trying to figure out, how do they put together their on-prem and their AWS instance? So this notion of hybrid is where most of these large enterprises are. We see a lot of terminology out there and a lot of vendors talking about multi-cloud. But multi-cloud is really just taking an option on the future and saying, "I'm not locked into you, AWS, "even though I am locked into you 100% right now. "I don't want to be forever in the future." >> It's a value statement that they're gesturing. >> That's right. >> Good segue. >> Chris: But it's not a practical implementation piece. >> I got my nerd glasses on so-- >> Peter: Strap in for something, here we go. I got my nerd glasses, so next question, we'll go a little nerdy, because this is important one. I put out at my crowd chat for Amazon, so to crowdchat.net/awsreinvent it's open, I have a lot of questions on there. Feel free to weigh in, it's an influencer-only chat, so no consumers, so I asked the question, and this is to the value statement, because multi-cloud is basically telegraphing lock-in. We don't want lock-in. >> Right. >> But we want love choice. If you have good choice and good value, we'll go there so it's a value equation. So the question I said is, where do you, this is a question I put on crowd-chat, I'll ask you guys. Where do you see the value that cloud creates for customers in the next 24 months? #cloud So the first response was from Subbu Allamaraju, who's the CIO at Expedia. He writes, "Agility from the service "ecosystem and rapid second-order architecture "architectural changes thereby clearing technical debt." And the second one from Grant Chase, "Born on the cloud apps already here. "Next wave migrating of existing apps." And then Maddoux Tsukahara said, "Legacy SASS applications will be disrupted "by cloud microservices, serverless, "and AI and machine learning." So we start to see the pattern. Your thoughts? Value creation, in the cloud, is gonna be what? >> So I think they're hitting on the right trends. I would go back to the first one which is "How do I get this on-prem stuff "that's driving me crazy, consuming all of my resources "in terms of maintenance and upgrades? "And then optimizing my environment for that." Which ones of those are core? And which ones of those are really kind of ancillary? I've gotta have them, but I really don't want them. If I didn't have to use them, I'd get rid of them. Take all, just do that homework. Separate the two cleanly. Move ancillary to the cloud, and move on. >> Peter: Yeah, yeah. >> So service ecosystem he nailed, I love, by the way, I agree with you, that was my favorite answer. And rapid second-order architecture changes. This speaks to what datos.io is doing. Because you guys, what you're in, the tornado that you're in, kind of just a play on the Chasm group here. You guys have a solution that has got visibility into some of the real dynamics of the environmental environment. >> Check. >> People, tech, stack, et cetera. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So what are some of the things that you're seeing that point to these second or level architectural changes? >> Well you mentioned, a couple different things, which is, you mentioned the notion of technical debt, which is indirectly what you were just talking about, the ability to get rid of my technical debt. It's an easy way, it eliminates my barrier to answering to creating net new applications. So without having to sort of, I avoid the innovator's dilemma if you will, because I can build these net new applications, which are the things I have to to drive my digital transformation, et cetera. I can do that in a very cost-effective and agile way. Meanwhile, sort of ignoring the old world. Then what I'll do is I'll go back, and I'll worry about the old stuff, and I'll start migrating some of that old stuff to the cloud. So in the context of, yeah, so what we see from a Datos IO perspective, in the context of data management, is that one, applications drive the stack, like you said earlier, it's absolutely, the application's at the tip of the spear, driving the stack. Organizations are building net new applications that are cloud native, okay? And they're built on the new modern IT stack, and at the same time, they're also taking their legacy application, so I like that second answer as well which is, modern cloud applications are here. The interesting thing is, you say modern cloud apps, modern cloud apps don't have to run in the cloud. >> That's right. >> We've got customers that are running their next gen app-- >> It's an operating model. >> It's an operating model. We've got customers running 100% on-prem. Their econ number stuff runs on-prem, then you have people that run in the cloud. So it's a mindset, it's an operating model. So you've got folks absolutely deploying these cloud-native apps. >> Well, it's an architectural model too, it's how they are deploying and servicing apps. >> And ultimately, it comes down to the architectural model. That's what shifted, and that world is very infrastructure. The other thing I would add to the cloud thing is if you do it right, the cloud actually can give you architectural independence and cloud independence, but you can't be focused on the infrastructure level. You've gotta focus at the application level, because then you can be agnostic, until they're online. >> So Peter you, you guys are disrupting a very large space, backup and recovery in the cloud which you guys are doing. >> Check. >> And the application database layer is a very progressive solution. So I love your approach, but you're talking about disrupting the data domains of the world. We're talking about big whales. >> Yeah. >> Big incumbents that are built around four walls in the data center. >> Check. >> Mm-hmm (affirmative), yep. >> What are you seeing? What's the makeup? What's the personnel of the customers look like? If dev ops is happening, which we agree it is, and the the evidence is there clearly, they're not 50 year old backup and recovery guys. They're young guns, they're probably not thinking about waking up every day with their coffee, say, "Hmm, what am I gonna do with backup today?" >> Yeah. >> Mm-hmm (affirmative). >> They're waking up saying, "Hey, I'm gonna drive some more machine learning "and AI in my apps." >> Yep. >> "And I'm gonna provide workflow movement to--" >> And you said breakfast was some, you said that. >> Adopt this microservice. >> I had the craziest dream last night. It was microservices, what? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, so I can answer that two ways. There's the technology side of it. Fun little tidbit, average age of the traditional backup and recovery software architecture, about 20 years. >> Hmm. >> Architected well before the mainstream advent of the cloud or certainly modern applications. >> Hold on, the person's 20 years old? Or it's 20 years of architecture? >> No, the architecture of the software. >> Okay. >> The solutions, or come up, the point is they've been around for awhile. >> It's old. It's old. >> It's old, fair enough. >> Yeah, and 20 years-- >> So on the technology side, that's a dilemma. On the persona side, you're absolutely right as well. These are, it's the application folks that are driving the conversation, that our applications dictate the IT stack. They're building these new architectures, which have all these implications on the infrastructure. >> All right, so I'm gonna play devil's advocate, just because I want to connect the dots. And again, illuminate what I think the problem is that you have. One is, okay I'm a CIO. Hey, he's my storage guy. Who the hell are you, young gun? Complaining about your backup and recovery. He recommends all flash arrays in the data center provisioned in a VSAN environment, whatever that's going on. Who are you? You're just nothing to me. You don't make that decision. >> I'm the guy that can give you all the visibility to your data to make you smarter and more agile as a company. I can save you money. I can make this company more market-- >> So what do I need to do differently? If I'm the CIO, I don't want to make these, or these architectural calls based upon old dogma or old reporting lines. This is an example. I go to him, he's my storage guy. Who are you? I already built you the dev ops environment. He runs storage and so, you're impacted as a developer. So how do you guys talk to that guy? What does the CXO have to do differently to adapt to the new environment? >> I'll take that and then you can-- >> Please. >> You know, jump in. So I think what you see is, you see the proliferation of new personas. Like you see chief transformation officers, you see chief digital officers. You see system architects and DBAs getting a more prominent role in the conversation. So the successful CIOs and technology officers are the ones that are essentially gonna get the cowboys and the Indians to collaborate more closely, because they have to, because the folks that were over in the corner that used to get laughed at, building these, oh mangos and these new applications and such, they're the ones holding the keys to the future. So the successful technologists are gonna be the ones that marry those personas from the application side of the house with the traditional storage, infrastructure folks as well. You successfully do that, then you can be more, then you can move more quickly forward. >> Yeah, that's right. >> What do you think? >> Well I think some of it's gonna come back down to economics, too. And I agree with that move which is, I talked to over a hundred CIOs and their staff in the last year. I had one conversation where the person said, "You know what? "The chief complaint about me as CIO "is I'm not spending enough money." And I thought to myself, "Sounds like a company that I should put some bucks into, "because they must be doing really, really well." Everybody else is looking at it saying, "You know what? "I'm under pressure to adopt the cloud, "because there's a belief out there "that the cloud is gonna be so much less expensive "than what they've done in the past." And then I think they find that it's not, that it's not just the one size fits all answer to that. >> Right. >> And so as a consequence, you're gonna have people say, Listen, this money printing operation, or this funnel out the door to, whether it's EMC or NetApp 4, or whatever it may be, whatever storage vendor for backup architecture, they've got to stop that funnel. Because they've got to take what they were spending there and move it to the things that are going to make money for them, not just gonna hold on to it, and de-risk their enterprise. >> I'm here with two industry leaders, Chris Comings and Peter Smails, talking about the impact of infrastructure technologies, and app development in the cloud for businesses. It's a great conversation, and our final point, I wanna just get to, I know we're running on some time here but we wanna go a little further. I think this is awesome. That's for taking the time to share it out. >> It's great. >> One of my other questions I put on my crowd chat was, a true or false and comment question. Here's the statement: Serverless computing will become mainstream, will come to mainstream private cloud, true or false, comment. Subbu said, "False, adoption and success "of serverless patterns depend almost entirely "on the strength of the ecosystem "that the data center lacks." Interesting comment. I was kinda leaning, I go, "I was leaning towards true." But I don't have enough insight on this, because I'm waffling between true or false. I love serverless, I love the idea of, notion of resources that are just programmable. But what is the state of serverless? I mean, is he right? Is that that there's not enough ecosystem in the data center areas or... >> You wanna go first? >> Well, I'd just say that I would, I would just call out two things on that front. One is, I think you need a lot more germination of microservices that are out there in order to be able to put that all together. That's one aspect. We're seeing that growth come rapidly. The other thing is, now your security is beholden to the lowest common denominator. The security of that individual microservice. So I think you're gonna have some fits and starts here as we move down that path because, boy oh boy, the last thing I wanna do is get all modern but at the same time, put myself at a greater amount of risk. >> I thought the comment at the end was, I think it's true. I thought it was interesting what he said at the end. He said, "The ecosystem that the data center lacks." I would contend that potentially, the ecosystem that the cloud has would support that. >> Yeah. >> Because the cloud, by definition is, it's a shared-nothing world. >> Right. >> You know? >> So, he also comments, someone said, Lambda, "My Expedia is that Lambda's growth "is almost entirely due to the power "of the ecosystem of services, "which is one of the key points," and he points to his blog post. Stu Miniman, our Wikibon analyst weighed in, because Stu's on this big time. "Service will definitely be used for edge applications. "Currently don't see use case for general data center usage." >> Mm-hmm (affirmative). >> So edge of the network. Again, good point? This edge of the network thing helps you, because most people are using cloud for edge. >> Peter: Right. >> So this IOT, which is, an iterative things, is an edge of the network. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Whether it's devices, sensors, industrial equipment, or people's devices on their bodies. >> Yeah. >> It's a huge data source. >> Absolutely. >> Cloud's rolling that up. Or a cloud-like infrastructure. >> Well but it's not necessarily rolling it up. It's just connecting all the dots as to where you can put storage and you can put compute where the data is. Or you can move the data to where the storage and the compute is. So it's not, I mean, yes there's core and edge, that's absolutely true, but the notion of rollup isn't necessarily true. It's not necessarily the cloud enables me to do all this colossal aggregation. It's I basically distribute my compute, I distribute my storage. >> Well, when I say rollup, I'm assuming there's some sort of architectural thing. >> Okay, fair. >> But this fits into your wheelhouse, I think. But I just connecting the dots. That's why it's a question for you is, it would make sense for a solution like DATOS to be there because, That's a application so you-- >> Absolutely. >> You back up IOT? >> Oh absolutely. We backup IOT, but we basically backup any modern cloud application. And by definition, what does that mean? >> So IOT's and app for you. >> IOT, absolutely IOT's-- >> Not necessarily a-- >> So the technically where we plug in is, we plugin at the database level. And the databases basically, are the underlying infrastructure that support the applications. So in the case of IOT, those are typically very highly distributed across GIOS, absolutely we protect them. >> So we were just talking earlier about the words flexibility, manageability, agility. That's kind of vanilla words that everyone uses these days. But in essence, you're actually really doing it. Right, so. >> Thanks for that setup. Yes, we actually do all those buzz words. >> So Chris recommends, I recommend that you call it, hyper flexibility. >> Yeah. >> Or microflexibility. >> Or ultra. >> Or ultra flexibility. >> Or go mega. Just go mega right now. Or uber and steal a little of that, although that's kind of out of favor right now. >> Not, uber is-- >> Uber we wanna let that one kind of fly by. >> But remember we also talked before, we thought we were spot on with our product being branded RecoverX. We thought we were really in the spot with the whole, you know. >> Your name is awesome. RecoverX is a great brand. >> So we're gonna stick with that for now before we-- >> Good branding, RecoverX, Data IOS. Chris, thanks for coming on. Final comment, any words on the storage industry as it evolved? You mentioned earlier, just call it flash. Certainly, all flash arrays are doing well. Pure Storage went public. Flash is a standard. >> Yeah. >> It has benefits. Where does the flash storage go with all this cloud value coming over the top? >> Well I think, you know, there's gonna be a couple. I have one comment on that which is, we see what flash is doing at the array level, and now we're gonna see what NVME does at the cash layer, for allowing this access to information. You think about, I want to run a singular query, but some of that data is here, there, everywhere, but I've gotta have a level of performance that allows me to actually run it, and get an answer from it. And so that's where that comes into play. I think we're gonna see a whole host of folks flooding into that space, to try and improve performance, but not only improve performance, but enable that whole distribution model. >> Yeah, and I would just pick up on more persona-centric thing which is, the message to the traditional IT shops is it is all about collaboration. The folks over in the corner, the application folks, it is absolutely all about getting more closely aligned, because cloud is here. >> Yeah. >> Multicloud, hybrid cloud, call it whatever you want, is here. The traditional IT stack is absolutely being disrupted, and it's all about embracing this application-centric, data-driven view of the world. That's the future, traditional IT's got to align with that, and collaborate and drive that whole thing forward. >> That's a great, I agree 100% what you guys just said, great comment. I would just say Wikibon calls it unigrid, which is, I'll rename it hypergrid, meaning it's just one system, to your point. Private, public, it's all cloud-like. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah, it doesn't matter where it goes. Okay guys, thanks for the thought leadership. Peter Smails and Chris Cummings here, breaking down the industry landscape on storage infrastructure, application developers, in context the cloud. This is theCUBE conversation. I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (motivating electronic music)

(techy music playing) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE Studios here in Palo Alto, California. I'm John Furrier, the cofounder of SiliconANGLE Media Inc., also cohost of theCUBE. We're here for a CUBE Conversation on Thought Leader Thursday and I'm here with Chris Cummings, who's a senior manager, advisor, big-time industry legend, but he's also the Chasm Group, right now, doer, Crossing the Chasm, famous books and it's all about the future. Formerly an exec at Netapp, been in the storage and infrastructure cloud tech business, also friends of Stanford. Season tickets together to go to the tailgates, but big Cal game coming up of course, but more importantly a big-time influence in the industry and we're going to do some drill down on what's going on with cloud computing, all the buzzword bingo going on in the industry. Also, AWS, Amazon Web Services re:Invent is coming up, do a little preview there, but really kind of share our views on what's happening in the industry, because there's a lot of noise out there. We're going to try to get the signal from the noise, thanks for watching. Chris, thanks for coming in. >> Thank you so much for having me, glad to be here. >> Great to see you, so you know, you have seen a lot of waves of innovation and right now you're working with a lot of companies trying to figure out the future. >> That's right. >> And you're seeing a lot of significant industry shifts. We talk about it on theCUBE all the time. Blockchain from decentralization all the way up to massive consolidation with hyper-convergence in the enterprise. >> Mm-hmm. >> So a lot of action, and because of the day the people out in the marketplace, whether it's a developer or a CXO, CIO, CDO, whatever enterprise leader's doing the transformations. >> Chris Collins: We got all of them. >> They're trying to essentially not go out of business. A lot of great things are happening, but at the same time a lot of pressure on the business is happening. So, let's discuss that, I mean, you are doing this for work at the Chasm Group. Talk about your role, you were formerly at Netapp, so I know you know the storage business. >> Right. >> So we're going to have a great conversation about storage and impact infrastructure, but at the Chasm Group how are you guys framing the conversation? >> Yeah, Chasm Group is really all about helping these companies process their thinking, think about if they're going to get to be a platform out in the industry. You can't just go and become a platform in the industry, you got to go knock down problem, problem, problem, solution, solution, solution. So we help them prioritize that and think about best practices for achieving that. >> You know, Dave Alante, my co-CEO, copartner, co-founder at SiliconANGLE Media and I always talk about this all the time, and the expression we use is if you don't know what check mate looks like you shouldn't be playing chess, and a lot of the IT folks and CIOs are in that mode now where the game has changed so much that sometimes they don't even know what they're playing. You know, they've been leaning on this Magic Quadrant from Gartner and all these other analyst firms and it's been kind of a slow game, a batch kind of game, now it's real time. Whatever metaphor you want to use, the game has changed so the chessboard has changed. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> So I got to get your take on this because you've been involved in strategy, been on product, you worked at growth companies, big companies, start-ups, and now looking at the bigger picture, what is the game? I mean, right now if you could lay out the chessboard, what are people looking at, what is the game? >> So, we deal a lot with customer conversations and that's where it all kind of begins, and I think what we found is this era of pushing product and just throwing stuff out there. It worked for a while but those days are over. These folks are so overwhelmed. The titles you mentioned, CIO, CDO, all the dev ops people, they're so overwhelmed with what's going on out there. What they want is people to come in and tell them about what's happening out there, what are their peers doing and what problems are they trying to solve in order and drive it that way. >> And there's a lot of disruption on the product side. >> Yes. >> So tech's changing, obviously the business models are changing, that's a different issue. Let's consider the tech things, you have-- >> Mm-hmm. >> A tech perspective, let's get into the tech conversation. You got cloud, you got private cloud, hybrid cloud, multi-cloud, micro-machine learning, hyper-machine learning, hyper-cloud, all these buzzwords are out there. It's buzzwords bingo. >> Chris: Right. >> But also the reality is you got Amazon Web Services absolutely crushing it, no doubt about it. I mean, I've been looking at Oracle, I've been looking at Google, I've been looking at SAP, looking at IBM, looking at Alibaba, looking at Microsoft, the game is really kind of a cloak and dagger situation going on here. >> That's right. >> A lot of things shifting on the provider side, but no doubt scale is the big issue. >> Chris: That's right. >> So how does a customer squint through all this? >> The conversations that I've had, especially with the larger enterprises, is they know that they've got to be able to adopt and utilize the public cloud capabilities, but they also want to retain that degree of control, so they want to maintain, whether it's their apps, their dev ops, some pieces of their infrastructure on prem, and as you talked about that transition it used to be okay, well we thought about cloud was equal to private cloud, then it became public cloud. Hybrid cloud, people are hanging on to hybrid cloud, sometimes for the right reasons and sometimes for the wrong reasons. Right reasons are because it's critical for their business. You look at somebody, for instance, in media and entertainment. They can't just push everything out there. They've got to retain control and really have their hands around that content because they've got to be able to distribute it, right? But then you look at some others that are hanging on for the wrong reasons, and the wrong reasons are they want to have their control and they want to have their salary and they want to have their staff, so boy, hybrid sounds like a mix that works. >> So I'm going to be having a one-on-one with Andy Jassy next week, exclusive. I do that every year as part of theCUBE. He's a great guy, good friend, become a good friend, because we've been a fan of him when no one loved Amazon. We saw the early, obviously at SiliconANGLE, now he's the king of the industry, but he's a great manager, great executive, and has done a great job on his ethos of Bezos and Amazon. Ship stuff faster, lower prices, the flywheel that Amazon uses. Everything's kind of on that-- And they own Twitch, which we stream, too, and we love. But if you could ask Andy any questions what questions would you ask him if you get to have that one-on-one? >> Yeah, well, it stems from conversations I've had with customers, which was probably once a week I would be talking to a CIO or somebody on that person's staff, and they'd slide the piece of paper across and say this is my bill. I had no idea that this was what AWS was going to drive me from a billing perspective, and I think we've seen... You know, we've had all kinds of commentary out there about ingress fees, egress fees, all of that sort of stuff. I think the question for Andy, when you look at the amount of revenue and operating margin that they are generating in that business, how are they going to start diversifying that pricing strategy so that they can keep those customers on without having them rethink their strategy in the future. >> So are you saying that when they slide that piece of paper over that the fees are higher than expected or not... Or low and happy, they're happy with the prices. >> Oh, they're-- I think they're-- I think it's the first time they've ever thought that it could be as expensive as on-premise infrastructure because they just didn't understand when they went into this how much it was going to cost to access that data over time, and when you're talking about data that is high volume and high frequency data, they are accessing it quite a bit, as opposed to just stale, cold, dead stuff that they want to put off somewhere else and not have to maintain. >> Yeah, and one of the things we're seeing that we pointed at the Wikibon team is a lot of these pricings are... The clients don't know that they're being billed for something that they may not be using, so AI or machine learning could come in potentially. So this is kind of what you're getting at. >> Exactly. >> The operational things that Amazon's doing to keep prices low for the customer, not get bill shock. >> Chris: That's right. >> Okay, so that's cool. What else would you ask him about culture or is there anything you would ask him about his plans... What else would you ask him? >> I think another big thing would be just more plans on what's going to be done around data analytics and big data. We can call it whatever we want, but they've been so good at the semi-structured or unstructured content, you know, when we think about AWS and where AWS was going with S3, but now there's a whole new phenomenon going on around this and companies are as every bit as scared about that transition as they were about the prior cloud transition, so what really are their plans there when they think about that, and for instance, things like how does GPU processing come into play versus CPU processing. There's going to be a really interesting discussion I think you're going to have with him on that front. >> Awesome, let's talk about IT. IT and information technology departments formerly known as DP, data processing, information-- All that stuff's changed, but there were still guys that were buying hardware, buying Netapp tries that you used to work for, buying EMC, doing data domain, doing a lot of stuff. These guys are essentially looking at potentially a role where-- I mean, for instance, we use Amazon. We're a big customer, happy customer. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> We don't have those guys. >> Chris: Right. >> So if I'm an IT guy I might be thinking shit, I could be out of a job, Amazon's doing my job, so I'm not saying that's the case but that's certainly a fear. >> Chris: Absolutely. >> But the business models have to shift from old IT to new IT. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> What does that game look like? What is this new IT game? Is it more, not a department view, is it more of a holistic view, and what's the sentiment around the buyers and your customers that you talk to around how do they message to the IT guys, like, look, there's higher valued jobs you could go to. >> Right. >> You mention analytics... >> That's right. >> What's the conversation? Certainly some guys won't make the transition and might not make it, but what's the narrative? >> Well, I think that's where it just starts with what segment are you talking about, so if you look at it and say just break it down between the large enterprise, the uber enterprise that we've seen for so long, mid-size and smaller, the mid-size and smaller are gone, okay. Outside of just specific industries where they really need that control, media and entertainment might be an example. That mid-size business is gone for those vendors, right? So those vendors are now having to grab on and say I'm part of that cloud phenomenon, my hyper-cloud of the future. I'm part of that phenomenon, and that becomes really the game that they have to play, but when you look at those IT shops I think they really need to figure out where are they adding value and where are they just enabling value that's being driven by cloud providers, and really that's all they are is a facilitator, and they've got to shift their energy towards where am I adding value, and that becomes more that-- >> That's differentiation, that's where differentiation is, so non-differentiated labor is the term that Wikibon analysts use. >> Oh, okay. >> That's going down, the differentiated labor is either revenue generating or something operationally more efficient, right? >> That's right, and it's all going to be revenue generating now. I mean, I used to be out there talking about things like archiving, and archiving's a great idea. It's something where I'm going to save money, okay, but I got this many projects on my list if I'm a CIO of where I can save money. I'm being under pressure about how am I going to go generate money, and that's where I think people are really shifting their eyeballs and their attention, is more towards that. >> And you got IOT coming down the pike. I mean, we're hearing is from what I hear from CIOs when we have a few in-depth conversations is look, I got to get my development team ramped up and being more cloud native, more microservice and I got to get more app development going that drives revenue for my business, more efficiency. >> Chris: Right. >> I have a digital transformation across the company in terms of hiring culture and talent. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> And then I got pressure to do IOT. >> Chris: Right. >> And I got security, so of those five things, IOT tends to fall out, security takes preference because of the security challenges, and then that's already putting their plate full right there. >> That's right, that's real time and those people are-- >> Those are core issues. >> Putting too much pressure on that right now and then you're thinking about IT and in the meantime, by the way, most of these places don't have the dev ops shop that's operating on a flywheel, right? So you're not... What's it, Goldman Sachs has 5,000 developers, right? That's bigger than most tech companies, so as a consequence you start thinking about well, not everybody looks like that. What the heck are they going to do in the future. They're going to have to be thinking about new ways of accessing that type of capability. >> This is where the cloud really shines in my mind. I think in the cloud, too, it's starting to fragment the conversations. People will try to pigeonhole Amazon. I see Microsoft-- I've been very critical of Microsoft in their cloud because-- First of all, I love the move that they're making. I think it's a smart move business-wise, but they bundle in 365 Office, that's not really cloud, it's just SAS, so then you start getting into the splitting of the hairs of well, SAS is not included in cloud. But come on, SAS is cloud. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> Well, maybe Amazon should include their ecosystem that would be a trillion dollar revenue number, so all companies don't look the same. >> That's right. >> And so from an enterprise that's a challenge. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> Do I got to hire developers for Asger, do I got to hire developers for Amazon, do I got to hire developers for Google. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> There's no stack consistency across private enterprises to cloud. >> Chris: So I have-- >> Because I'm a storage guy, I've got Netapp drives and now I've got an Amazon thing. I like Amazon, but now I got to go Asger, what the hell do I do? >> I got EMCs here and I got Nimbles there and HP and I've still got tape from IBM from five decades ago, so, John, I got a great term for you that's going to be a key one, I think, in the ability. It's called histocompatibility, and this is really about... >> Oh, here we go. Let's get nerdy with the tape glasses on. >> It's really about the ability to be able to inter-operate with all this system and some of these systems are live systems, they're current systems. Some of it's garbage that should've been thrown out a long time ago and actually recycled. So I think histocompatibility is going to be a really, really big deal. >> Well, keep the glasses on. Let's get down in the weeds here. >> Okay. >> I like the-- With the pocket protector, if you had the pocket protector we'd be in good shape. >> Yep. >> So, vendors got to compete with these buzzwords, become buzzword bingo, but there are trends that you're seeing. You've done some analysis of how the positionings and you're also a positioning guru as well. There's ways to do it and that's a challenge is for suppliers, vendors who want to serve customers. They got to rise above the noise. >> Chris: That's right. >> That's a huge problem. What are you seeing in terms of buzzword bingo-- >> Oh, my goodness. >> Because like I said, I used to work for HP in the old days and they used to have an expression, you know, don't call it what it is because that's boring and make it exciting, so the analogy they used was sushi is basically cold, dead fish. (laughing) So, sushi is a name for cold, dead fish. >> Chris: Yeah. >> So you don't call your product cold, dead fish, you call it sushi. >> Chris: Right. >> That was the analogy, so in our world-- >> Chris: That was HP-UX. >> That was HP-UX, you know, HP was very engineering. >> Yes. >> That's not-- Sushi doesn't mean anything. It's cold, dead fish, that's what it is. >> Right. >> That's what it does. >> That's right. >> So a lot of vendors can error in that they're accurate and their engineers, they call it what it is, but there's more sex appeal with some better naming. >> Totally. >> What are you seeing in terms of the fashion, if you will, in terms of the naming conventions. Which ones are standing out, what's the analysis. >> Well, I think the analysis is this, you start with your adjectives with STEM words, John, and what I mean by that is things like histocompatibility. It could start with things like agility, flexibility, manageability, simplicity, all those sorts of things, and they've got to line those terms up and go out there, but I think the thing that right now-- >> But those are boring, I saw a press release saying we're more agile, we're the most effective software platform with agility and dev ops, like what the hell does that mean? >> Yeah, I think you also have to combine it with a heavy degree of hyperbole, right? So hyperbole, an off-the-cuff statement that is so extreme that you'd never really want to be tested on it, so an easy way to do that is to add hyper in front of all that. So it's hyper-manageability, right, and so I think we're going to see a whole new class of words. There are 361 great adjectives with STEMs, but-- >> Go through the list. >> Honestly. >> Go through the list that you have. >> I mean, there's so many, John, it's... >> So hyper is an easy one, right? >> Hyper is easy, I think that's a very simple one. I think now we also see that micro is so big, right, because we're talking about microservices and that's really the big buzzword in the industry right now. So everything's going to be about micro-segmenting your apps and then allowing those apps to be manifest and consumed by an uber app, and ultimately that uber app is an ultra app, so I think ultra is going to be another term that we see heading into the spectrum as well. >> And so histocompatibility is a word you mentioned, just here in my notes. >> Yep. >> You mentioned, so histo means historical. >> Exactly. >> So it means legacy. >> Chris: That's right. >> So basically backwards compatible would be the boring kind of word. >> Chris: That's right. >> And histocompatibility means we got you covered from legacy to cloud, right. >> Uh-huh. >> Or whatever. >> You bet. >> Micro-segmentility really talks to the granularity of data-driven things, right? >> That's right, another one would be macro API ability, it's kind of a mouthful, but everyone needs an API. I think we've seen that and because they're consuming so many different pieces and trying to assemble those they've got to have something that sits above. So macro API ability, I think, is another big one, and then lastly is this notion of mobility, right. We talk about-- As you said earlier, we talked about clouds and going from-- It's not just good enough to talk about hybrid cloud now, it's about multi-cloud. Well, multi-cloud means we're thinking about how we can place these apps and the data in all kinds of different spaces, but I've got to be able to have those be mobile, so hyper-mobility becomes a key for these applications as well. >> So hyper-scale we've seen, we've seen hyper-convergence. Hyper is the most popular-- >> Chris: Absolutely. >> Adjective with STEM, right? >> Chris: It's big. >> STEM words, okay, micro makes sense because, you know, micro-targeting, micro-segmentation, microservices, it speaks to the level of detail. >> Chris: Right. >> I love that one. >> Chris: Right. >> Which ones aren't working in your mind? We see anything that's so dead on arrival... >> Sure, I think there's a few that aren't working anymore. You got your agility, you got your flexibility, you got your manageability, and you got your simplicity. Okay, I could take all four of those and toss those over there in the trash because every vendor will say that they have those capabilities for you, so how does that help you distinguish yourself from anyone else. >> So that's old hat. >> It's just gone. >> Yeah, never fight fashion, as Jeremy Burton at EMC, now at Dell Technologies, said on theCUBE. I love that, so these are popular words. This is a way to stand out and be relevant. >> That's right. >> This is the challenge for vendors. Be cool and relevant but not be offensive. >> Yeah. >> All right, so what's your take on the current landscape for things like how do companies market themselves. Let's say they get the hyper in all the naming and the STEM words down. They have something compelling. >> Chris: Right. >> Something that's differentiated, something unique, how do companies stand out above the crowd, because the current way is advertising's not working. We're seeing fake news, you're seeing the analyst firms kind of becoming more old, slower, not relevant. I mean, does the Magic Quadrant really solve that problem or are they just putting that out there? If I'm a marketer, I'm a B2B marketer. >> Yeah. >> Obviously besides working with theCUBE and our team, so obviously great benefits. Plug there, but seriously, what do you advise? >> Yeah, I think the biggest thing is, you know, you think about marketing as not only reaching your target market, but also enabling your sales force and your channel partners, and frankly, the best thing that I've found in doing that, John, is starting every single piece that we would come up with with a number. How much value are we generating, whether it's zero clicks to get this thing installed. It's 90% efficiency, and then prove it. Don't just throw it out there and say isn't that good enough, but numbers matter because they're meaningful and they stimulate the conversation, and that's ultimately what all of this is. It's a conversation about is this going to be relevant for you, so that's the thing that I start with. >> So you're say being in the conversation matters. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> What's the thought leadership view, what's your vision on how a company should be looking at thought leadership. Obviously you're seeing more of a real-time-- I call it the old world was batch marketing. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> E-mail marketing, do the normal things, get the white papers, do those things. You know, go to events, have a booth, and then the new way is real-time. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> Things are happening very fast-- >> That's right. >> In the market, people are connected now. It's a global, basically, message group. >> That's right. >> Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook and all this stuff. >> It's really an unfulfilled need that you guys are really looking to fill, which is to provide that sort of real-time piece of it, but I think vendors trip over themselves and they think about I need a 50 page vision. They don't need a 50 page vision. What they need is here are a couple of dimensions on which this industry is going to change, and then commit to them. I think the biggest problem that many vendors have is they won't commit, they hedge, as opposed to they go all in behind those and one thing we talk about at Chasm Institute is if you're going to fail, fail fast, and that really means that you commit full time behind what you're pushing. >> Yeah, and of course what the Chasm, what it's based upon, you got to get to mainstream, get to early pioneers, cross the chasm. The other paradigm that I always loved from Jeffrey Moore was inside the tornado. Get inside the tornado because if you don't get in you're going to be spun out, so you've got to kind of get in the game, if you will. >> Chris: That's right. >> Don't overthink it, and this is where the iteration mindset comes in, "agile" start-up or "agile" venture. Okay, cool, so let's take a step back and reset to end the segment here. >> Mm-hmm. >> Re:Invent's coming up, obviously that's the big show of the year. VMworld, someone was commenting on Facebook VMworld 2008 was the big moment where they're comparing Amazon now to VMworld in 2008. >> Chris: Right. >> But you know, Pat Gelsinger essentially cut a great deal with Andy Jassy on Vmware. >> Chris: Right. >> And everything's clean, everything's growing, they're kicking ass. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> They got a private cloud and they got the hybrid cloud with Amazon. >> Yeah, it's that VMcloud on Amazon, that really seems to be the thing that's really driving their move into the future, and I think we're going to see from both of those folks, you are going to see so much on containers. Containerization, ultra-containers, hyper-containers, whatever it may be. If you're not speaking container language, then you are yesterday's news, right? >> And Kubernetes' certainly the orchestration piece right underneath it to kind of manage it. Okay, final point, what's in store for the legacy, because you're seeing a few major trends that we're pointing out and we're watching very closely, which really I put into two buckets. I know Wikibon's a more disciplined approach, I'm more simple about that. The decentralization trend we're seeing with Blockchain, which is kind of crazy and bubbly but very infrastructure relevant, this decentralized, disrupting, non-decentralized incumbence, so that's one trend and the other one is what cloud's doing to legacy IT vendors, Oracle, you know, these traditional manufacturers like that HP and Dell and all these guys, and Netapp which is transforming. So you've got disruption on both sides, cloud and like a decentralized model, apps, what's the position, view, from your standpoint, for these legacy guys? >> It's going to be quite an interesting one. I think they have to ride the wave, and I'll steal this from Peter Levine, from Andreessen, right? He talks about the end of cloud computing, and really what that is is just basically saying everything is going to be moving to the edge and there's going to be so much more compute at the edge with IOT and you can think about autonomous vehicles as the ultimate example of that, where you're talking about more powerful computers, certainly, than this that are sitting in cars all over the place, so that's going to be a big change, and those vendors that have been selling into the core data center for so long are going to have to figure out their way of being relevant in that universe and move towards that. And like we were talking about before, commit to that. >> Yeah. >> Right, don't just hedge, but commit to it and move. >> What's interesting is that I was talking with some executives at Alibaba when I was in China for part of the Alibaba Cloud Conference and Amazon had multiple conversations with Andy Jassy and his team over the years. It's interesting, a lot of people don't understand the nuances of kind of what's going on in cloud, and what I'm seeing is it's essentially, to your point, it's a compute game. >> Chris: Yeah. >> Right, so if you look at Intel for instance, Alibaba told me on my interview, they don't view Intel as a chip company anymore, they're a compute company, right, and CJ Bruno, one of the executives there, reaffirmed that. So Intel's looking at the big picture saying the cloud's a computer. Intel Inside is a series of compute, and you mentioned that the edge, Jassy is building a set of services with his team around core compute, which has storage, so this is essentially hyper-converged cloud. >> That's right. >> This is a pretty big thing. What's the one thing that people might not understand about this. If you could kind of illuminate this trend. I mean, the old Intel now turned into the new Intel, which is a monster franchise continuing to grow. >> Mm-hmm. >> Amazon, people see the numbers, they go oh, my god, they're a leader, but they have so much more headroom. >> Chris: Right, right. >> And they've got everyone else playing catch up. >> Yeah. >> What's the real phenomenon going on here? >> I think you're going to see more of this aggregation phenomenon where one vendor can't solve this entire problem. I mean, look at most recently, in the last two weeks, Intel and AMD getting together. Who would've thought that would happen? But they're just basically admitting we got a real big piece of the equation, Intel, and then AMD can fulfill this niche because they're getting killed by NVIDIA, but you're going to see just more of these industry conglomerations getting together to try and solve the problem. >> Just to end the segment, this is a great point. NVIDIA had a niche segment, graphics, now competing head to head with Intel. >> Chris: That's right. >> So essentially what's happening is the landscape is completely changing. Once competitors no longer-- New entrants, new competitors coming in. >> Chris: Mm-hmm. >> So this is a massive shift. >> Chris: It is. >> Okay, Chris Cummings here inside theCUBE. I'm John Furrier of CUBE Conversation. There's a massive shift happening, the game has changed and it's incumbent upon start-ups, venture capital, you know, Blockchain, ICOs or whatever's going on. Look at the new chessboard, look at the game and figure it out. Of course, we'll be broadcasting live at AWS re:Invent in a couple weeks. Stay tuned, more coverage, thanks for watching. (techy music playing)

(upbeat dramatic music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to the Cube Conversation, here in Palo Alto Studios, for The Cube. I'm John Furrier, the cohost of The Cube, co-founder of Silicon Angle Media. We are here for Thought Leader Thursday, with Mitzi Chang. She's a securities attorney and partner at Goodwin. Formerly Goodwin Proctor, Goodwin Proctor's the name. Again, great to have you on. Thanks for coming in and talking about some of the securities around Blockchain ICO's. You guys doing a lot of work, thanks for coming in. >> Thanks for having me. >> So, obviously, Blockchain is the hottest thing we're seeing. AI, obviously, is hot as well, IOT, all of this about a new, decentralized internet. And it's the wild west. And we know because we're looking at doing our Blockchain and tokens for The Cube and all that good stuff. So we're totally love the new environment. Everyone, all the light tier one entrepreneurs are licking their chops and going, ah, man, good action. And a lot of the thought leaders are saying this is a fundamental shift. So it's cool, we get that. But now, okay, is the technology ahead of the law? And, just today, the news is breaking that the SEC is now putting a clampdown on a new thing, celebrity endorsements, into ICO's initial coin offering. So, yeah, you're a securities attorney. You have to sit back there and, like, wire these deals together. >> Right. >> What's going on, I mean, is the law behind the tech? How are you guys managing it, what's the flow look like for you? >> Yeah, I mean, I think that the law is almost always behind the technology, right. That's just how it works. I mean, from our perspective, you know, we represent tons of companies on normal securities law, or securities issuances. And this can be similar, depending on how the token is structured. So, you know, the SEC said in its July guidance that tokens can be securities, depending on the facts. A part of what we do, as lawyers, is review the facts of the token, right. What does the token do, how do you treat the token, how are you issuing the token, how are you marketing the token? Are there securities-like features of the token? So, for example. Does it have profit sharing features? Does it have voting features? Those are pretty obviously more security-like features. But, also, you know, in the token ecosystem, are you treating it like you would equity? So, for example, you know, are you putting vesting conditions on there? Are you marketing it to VC's who may never use your network? Those are some factors that make it look like more security. Versus a utility. >> You guys also, I mean, I've been in Silicon Valley now 18 years, and been an entrepreneur for longer, and entrepreneurs are always three feet in a cloud of dust, breaking things in the bowl in the China shop, as they say, and have to get the lawyers to kind of clean things up or set things straight. Securities is a known practice, but now there's some kind of bumps in the road but still people are moving forward. So I got to ask you, what's the test? I mean, we hear things like the Howey Test. >> Mm hmm. >> What are some of the things that entrepreneurs should know around where to pay attention? Kind of where to put their head down and drive because there are known practices, on the security site you mentioned, a few of them, but where's the test? What's the one thing, is it the Howey Test? What is this Howey Test concept? And what other things should entrepreneurs know about? >> Right, so I think, you know, the Howey Test is a test that was in CaseLab that basically explains what is an investment contract. And an investment contract is what is considered a security. So, basically, the payment of money, you know, based on the efforts of others, where you kind of have the reasonable expectation of obtaining profits, right, from those efforts of others, versus yourself. So that's the general gist of it. So I think, from a securities law perspective, that's really important. Because there has been so much focus from the SEC. But there's also other regulatory agencies who are focused on this. Some of those are, you know, money transmitter laws. You know, there's potential commodities law issues. So there's definitely other regulatory regimes that could implicate the token. Or the token could be implicated in that regime. But I think the securities law one is one that I focus on. >> Yeah. >> And it's important to look at. >> Alright, so the first test is, okay, obviously, new internet infrastructure, different conversation, but the real law test is, is this token going to be an investment making money. >> Right. >> Or is it going to be a utility. One that provides values to the participants. Did I get that right? >> Yes, I would say, generally speaking, right. Is the token, you know, is it a use case? Or is it an investment? Am I expecting profits from that token? Or am I using it like an access fee or a membership? Or to obtain services. >> An arcade game, as Grant Fonda would say. >> Exactly. An arcade game is probably your best example. >> Yeah. Okay, so then the next test is I've heard of some things I'd like to get you to explain. What anti-money laundering or AML is. And KYC, Know Your Customer. And, obviously, Bitcoin has been kind of, you know, we've heard Silk Road stories, underbelly, a lot of bad things are happening, but anonymous is good. But here, financially, Know Your Customer is a specific thing that means something and then AML, anti-money laundering, how does that factor into this whole thing? >> Yeah, so I think for, you know, when you open a bank account, for example, right, your bank wants to know who you are. They'll obtain certain information from you. Whether it's your drivers license or passport. Where you obtained your funds. I mean, that's part of the Know Your Customer, anti-money laundering activity, right. >> And identity behind the, before you sign the thing. >> Right. So part of it is because cryptocurrency can be very anonymous, right. There are anonymous wallets that you're sending cryptocurrency to and from, you don't know who these people are. So part of it is making sure that you understand who your purchasers are. You don't want to run afoul of, you know, an anti-terrorist type, you know, regulations. The US government has several lists that they have online that you can search for names of folks that you don't need to be doing business with. So there's a lot of structures already in place. And part of that is just understanding who your purchasers are. >> And these are requirements on certain things, and the anti-money laundering exposes just audit trailing and certain things that you got to have as compliance things. >> Correct, correct. And so I think, in America, we don't normally, I would say if you were kind of outside of the US, this is probably a little bit more normal, right. People are used to doing it. I think, in America, maybe we're not as used to it. But these are not kind of new guidelines. This has always existed. >> Alright, so sometimes entrepreneurs are fast and loose with their, ah, screw the anti-money laundering thing. Or they get, I don't understand, that's too much work, I don't understand it. >> Yeah. >> So they blow it off. When do they have to not blow it off? When do you have to worry about, like, all these anti-money laundering things? Cause you have to, obviously, do more work. >> Right. >> Got to make sure you're checking the boxes, complying. That probably has overhead, costs money, or maybe write some new software. So we've been recommending that all of our clients who are in the token space and kind of obtaining, you know, digital currency, go through KYC and AML. Some of the digital currency exchanges, right. So in order, when you're receiving your digital currency and you need an account, >> Mm hmm. >> in order to exchange the digital currency into US dollars, for example, it's essentially like opening a bank account. So they're going to ask for all of the information with respect to how did you receive your digital currency. So part of that is you need to have that in place prior to actually launching your token sale so that you can kind of follow the flow of funds. >> So I was trying to find this image I would put up but I can't find it cause I'm on this computer, but I saw a thing on a conference, might have been Block Con, that you guys were at. I think you guys sponsored that event. Where the cost of doing an ICO can range from, they said, on the cheap end, they use the word cheap, not inexpensive, cheap, probably implying not get a good lawyer, a hundred K up to 750 thousand dollars. So, range of cost between hundred thousand and 750 thousand. From cheap to done right. >> Right. Right. >> Or expensive. Is that right or is that, what's the cost ranges? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot of players in the ecosystem, right. So there's the lawyers. And typically lawyers bill by the hour, so that's kind of how much time, you know, we're kind of looking at documents and things and helping you structure. There's the tax accountants. So part of that is also, you know, how much time they're spending. But some of it can be very complicated from a tax structuring perspective. Then there's the technical people, right. Unless you have that in house. To actually build your Blockchain network. Kind of help you with all of that, you know, the technical aspects of it. So software engineers, for example. Then there's the ICO consultants. Someone to kind of help you manage, quarterback the process, maybe help you with marketing the tokens to certain different websites, or help you with that. So, all of those together, I mean, yes, it can be very expensive, it kind of depends on how much of that you want to outsource. And how much of that you can do yourself. Obviously, you can't really do all that stuff yourself. >> So it's in the ranges. It could be in the ranges. >> Yeah. I mean, tax alone could kill you if you're looking at all kinds of complicated schemes or licensing agreements. >> Right. >> I mean. >> So all that, you want to make sure you're structuring the entity appropriately before you start it. >> Okay, so where do you get involved? So let's just say that, let's just walk through the day and day operations of, say, Goodwin. Okay, I've got to client. >> Yep. >> And, okay, you come in for the securities component. What does that mean? You just make sure they're incorporated properly? All the laws on the stock and then the tokens treatment? What specific things do you do? >> Sure, so, you know, once we kind of have brought the client in, after our conflicts procedures, and we've agreed to the engagement, part of depends on where they are. If they don't have a company, we'll help you form the company, right. And make sure that all of those startup documents have been appropriately done. Sometimes people have already, they're, you know, an actual company, right. We don't need to form them, they're already in existence. So then we look at pass the formation items and we look at the token issuance. So we'll look at your white paper. The white paper typically describes how the token works in the ecosystem and kind of what the company. >> You get involved in that, just to kind of check if it sounds. >> From a structuring perspective, right. Do we think this is a security? Or do we think it is leaning towards utility? And the SEC obviously has not said, what is a utility and what is a security. >> So that's the gray area? >> Yes. >> So the gray area is watch the language, be careful what you say. >> But also what you do, right. It's not just what you say, it's also what you do. So part of it is talking to the clients about what are you thinking, how are you envisioning this? Where can we help you kind of restructure or decrease your risks? >> And you guys become a safety net and help defend that too, obviously, as attorneys. But the clients still own, >> Correct. I mean, part of it is we give you advice. And the clients can take or not take our advice. But that's what we're here for. >> Do you guys offer a legal opinions behind these? I'm sure you don't. (laughs) >> We don't offer legal opinions. You know, we do do research memos on kind of where we think your token lies. But we don't do legal opinions. >> So have you guys talked to the SEC at Goodwin? I mean, do you guys have conversations? I don't know what goes on behind the curtain of the big law firms but I'm assuming that you guys are up to speed on all the notes and everything, but do you guys actually talk to people at the SEC? Is that how it works? Cause this is a cutting edge area, I'm sure you guys have to be on the cutting edge. >> Yeah, I mean we haven't had any clients, knock on wood, that have had to go through any of the SEC investigations on this. So, you know, we have not had, on behalf of our clients, had to talk to them about it. >> So that's good news, you guys doing good. >> Yeah. >> I know you guys doing over close to 30 plus ICO's, so congratulations. Is there a pattern that you've seen, from a legal standpoint, that you've seen emerging? Obviously, it's pretty clear, out in the market place, certainly the celebrity endorsement, Paris Hilton to the boxer dude and all kinds of stuff was going on where people were endorsing >> Right. >> things, so. Kind of, I don't want to say pump and dump, but that's a word that's been used in the dot com bubble, but people are saying a lot of these things are scams. And the majority of them aren't going to work out. So we've said, editorially here on The Cube and Silicon Angle, that failure doesn't mean scams. We had some failures, but certainly there are some scams. So has that caused people to pull back a little bit? And say, whoa, we're not going to go forward fast enough? Or is nothing stopping this, what's the pattern? >> Yeah, I would say, compared to a year ago, where there was no SEC guidance, right, there was no guidance from other regulator agencies, people were definitely going very quickly. I think now what we're seeing are more sophisticated clients. Clients who really want to make sure that they're following all of the legal requirements to the best that they can, given the grayness in the securities laws and other regimes. And a lot more of a thoughtfulness about, well, let's make sure that this works, right, we're not going to get into trouble. >> Have you seen any co-mingling between some of the traditional VC, venture capital investors or hedge funds, they're emerging, who want to come in and participate on the pure equity side, or the preferred stock or, more common, mostly prefer we see them. But, also, play in the tokens. Is there co-existence between participation? Or is it mostly they line up on the preferred and then let the tokens go here? Is there a pattern there that you see around how those securities are playing out? >> Yeah, I think a lot of people see value in the token ecosystem and they want to participate in that. And a lot of our venture capital clients, or our token clients who have VC investors, they want to participate. So we are definitely seeing people are very excited about it and want to kind of be a part of it. >> What about the presale concept? We're seeing a lot of people jump on the presale bandwagon because it allows them to, you know. It's not an inexpensive process. You guys, obviously, don't work for free. You guys have deals where, obviously, startups can come in. And you guys have a great startup program, I could testify that. You guys do have a good community participation there. But, at the end of the day, this is a legitimate process now. >> Mm Hmm. >> It costs money. You guys have to get paid. And service provides, like the tax attorneys got to get paid. So there's a lot, we see a lot of entrepreneurs doing that's presale. Where they try to offer this kind of discount. How is that working out and has that been going well? >> Yeah, I mean I think, you know, while the SEC has not commented on this, the practitioners and kind of the ecosystem, most people, I think, are considering that presale agreement prior to a network actually being live as a security. And, so, people are going out to accredited investors, sometimes that's VC, sometimes that's high net worth individuals. That's usually done through a SAFT, which is, it stands for Simple Agreement for Future Tokens, or a presale contribution agreement. So part of that is it's like a, you can liken it to a preferred stock financing. >> It's a known process. >> But it's not preferred stock. >> But it's a known vehicle for financing. >> Correct. >> It's not like it's tied to the ICO in a new vehicle. It's just like, okay, we're going to do something down the road, there's risks associated, all that stuff. >> Right, it's an investment contract. I'm giving you a million dollars to invest, to build up the platform. At the end of, when the platform launches, and, hopefully, when the network has utility and your token has utility, then you'll receive tokens. >> And this is good for innovation, because it gets everyone rolling a little bit. Is that, that kind of seems to be the pattern that I'm seeing. It's like, you know. >> It's basically like a seed round, alright. That's probably a really good example, is it's a seed round to get something started. That thing is not your company, it is your network. >> And it also sets the community. I've noticed on the Blockchain, these ICO communities are a very bit part of it. Goodwin's got a great reputation, certainly here in Silicon Valley, and around the world, as a law firm. This is a big part of it. So the presale's also kind of a gesture of credibility for the opportunity and I think, I mean, you know, people I talk to are like, hey, I look at what's going on in the presale, kind of as an indicator of who's involved, judged by the company that you keep kind of thing. So that's interesting. Have you seen that presale dominating more than just going right to the ICO, given the market conditions of all the ICO's? >> Yeah, I mean I think it depends, right. Some of our clients have existing businesses, right. Where this is very complimentary. The Blockchain network is complimentary to their existing business and, so, they may not need to have this big presale, right. Part of the presale could be two weeks before your general crowd sale. You have folks who kind of get in early. To me, that is not necessarily, I mean, it really depends, obviously, fact-specific, but that's a little big different that doing a, quote, presale agreement. Like a year before or six months before your token launch. That's a little bit different. >> Yeah, so also you brought up a good point. Existing businesses versus kind of like people who just need the cash to get going. >> Right. >> We're seeing a lot of companies that either have a successful business, like Kik and then Kik Kin Token was once example, we talk about all the time. The other one is pivots. We're seeing a lot of entrepreneurs take companies that were pivots, AKA, going out of business, where the token timing of a token in decentralized Blockchain actually is great for their business model. And they have to, essentially, go recap or do some securities, you know, resetting. That's your world, right? You got to get involved in those areas. >> Yeah, I mean, I think anything that has to do with kind of changing your capital structure, right, you should have your securities lawyer or your corporate lawyer involved. Because that'll obviously impact your securities law. You know, exemptions that you're taking, you know, typically from a private placement exemption, for most of our private company clients. >> Is there any new trends that are popping out of that kind of pivot or, wow, this is really, you know, I was out there, I got some funding from Y Combinator, or some sort of venture, and we're kind of just barely staying alive. This Blockchain could really accelerate, there's now momentum. Is there any trends that you see, from your work standpoint, where you have, that are happen, that are obvious new things that are coming out of this? Or is it a standard recap to cap table, normal corporate work? >> I think there is a tension, right, between doing a normal stock finance, preferred stock, or common stock financing that, you know, whatever you would typically do. Whether that's a convertible security or a convertible note. And then raising funds through a token sale. And so, from my perspective, it's obviously cleaner to do it the traditional way. Because you're not dealing with unclear SEC rules, right. It's very clear how you do a preferred stock financing. We do that every day. So to the extent that companies are in that position where they can choose, it's certainly cleaner to do it the traditional way. >> If you pull off an ICO, god bless you. It's certainly equity-free, tokens. There's no equity to token, if you're a utility token. >> Right. >> Okay, so I was reading about the Delaware, Delaware was allowing companies to use Blockchain. >> Mm hmm. >> This is right up your alley. So, they're not doing ICO's. So can you clarity the Delaware situation relative to Blockchain, cause they're using a Blockchain from a ledger standpoint, but it's not an ICO haven yet. So talk about the Delaware situation. >> Correct, so the Delaware amendments, which I believe are now approved, as of a couple of months ago, over the summer, essentially allow the cap table ledger to be on the Blockchain. So they're kind of ahead of everything, right. Because, you know. So, for like, for example, a few years ago, no one had uncertificated stock certificates. Everybody wanted the physical stock certificates. And now most companies, that we represent, >> They want digital. >> Exactly, digital, uncertificated stock certificates. But there is a ledger and there is a record of it. You just don't have the fancy paper with the pretty legend on it. So I think technology is moving and the law needs to as well. So part of that is Delaware kind of getting onboard. >> Delaware's got a great opportunity, they can nail the ICO's. Well, Mitzi, thanks for coming, I really appreciate it. Any other observations that you'd like, that you see in the market that you'd like to share? Take a minute to talk about what you're doing at Goodwin, as well. What's going on, what's happening? >> Yeah, I mean I think it's a really exciting time, we're really excited to be a part of it. It's cutting edge work. I think that there's a lot of, I guess, what I would call kind of your more traditional clients that we have, that we take calls from every day. Whether that's investment banks, or VC funds, private equity funds, or just our venture backed companies that are curious as to what is this all about. >> Yeah. >> So I think it's really exciting and I'm glad to be a part of it. I don't think that it is going to stop. I think that certainly there's likely to be more regulation about how you do one of these ICO's, one of these token generation events, you know, within the confines of the law. But I don't see it stopping. >> You don't see it stopping at all? >> No, I mean I think once there's more regulation, there'll be more clarity about how to do it. And how to do it within the confines of the law, which we try to do, obviously, you know, given that there's not a ton of clear guidance. But I think that, I think the ship has sailed. >> Yeah, well this is a great conversation here with Goodwin, formerly Goodwin Proctor, Mitzi Chang, partner, she's a securities attorney. We should call this show Billable Hours. Because we're getting some free legal opinions and conversations, thanks for coming on, appreciate it. >> Thanks for having me. >> Blockchain is hot, entrepreneurs are using it. All the top tier one entrepreneurs are looking at this. Great opportunity, similar with the Web One dato, the TC IP era of the internet, Blockchain. It's fundamental infrastructure for the future of decentralization, so. Great opportunities, causing lots of innovation. Check with your attorneys, obviously Goodwin, and a few others all doing great ICO's. Great potential fundraising, but also great business opportunities. Thanks again, appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> So Cube Conversations here, in Palo Alto, I'm John Furrier, thanks for watching. (electronic music)