>> So Alex, we're going to do, this is a different segment so I'll do a break, okay. What's that? Yeah, yeah. The 2019 SolarWinds hack represents a new threat milestone in the technology industry. The hackers, they patiently waited and evolved their intrusion over several years, literally. They lived in stealth. They tested, they retested their techniques and they use very sophisticated methods to get into email systems, networks, authentication systems, and numerous points in the software supply chain to replicate the malicious code at massive scale. Now they use techniques like they would insert malware steal data, and then they'd remove the malicious code before it was discovered. And so many other advanced approaches were used to cover their tracks. Now the really scary thing about this breach is people often think, oh, I'm good. Thankfully, I don't use SolarWinds, but it's not true. You're not safe because the domino effect of this hack has created massive concerns. We actually, to this day, we don't know the true scope of this attack and who really was impacted. And we may never know. Connecting all the dots on this breach is extremely difficult. Moreover, new threats like those exposed in the recent Log4j vulnerability, seemed to hit the news cycle weekly. And they further underscore the risk to organizations, not just large companies by the way, but small businesses, mid-size organizations and individuals. Hello, my name is Dave Vellante, and welcome to theCUBE's special look at managing risk in the digital supply chain, made possible by Red Hat. Today we're going to hear from some of the top experts that will help you better understand how to think about the exposures in the software supply chain, some of the steps we can all take to reduce our risks and how an endless game of escalation will likely play out over the next decade. Up next is our first segment hosted by Dave Nicholson of theCUBE. He's with Luke Hinds and Vincent Danen of Red Hat. They're going to talk about where the greatest threats exist. How to think about open source versus other commercial software. And discuss ways organizations can reduce their risks going forward. Let's get started. I'm going to do that again. Same one, I'll do each one twice. The 2019 SolarWinds hack represents a new threat milestone in the technology industry. The hackers, they patiently waited and evolved their intrusion over several years, literally. They lived in stealth. They tested and they retested their techniques and used very sophisticated methods to get into email systems, networks, authentication systems in numerous points in the software supply chain to replicate the malicious code at massive scale. They would use techniques like inserting malware and then they would steal data. And then they would remove the code before it was discovered. And they use many other advanced approaches to cover their tracks. The really scary thing about this breach is, people often think, oh, well, I'm good. Thankfully, I don't use SolarWinds, but it's not true you're not safe, because the domino effect of this hack it's created a massive massive concerns throughout the industry. We actually to this day, we don't know the true scope of this attack and we don't even know who was impacted. We may never know. So connecting all the dots in this breach is extremely difficult. Moreover, new threats like those exposed in the recent Log4j vulnerability, they seem to hit the news like weekly. And they further underscore the risks that organizations face, not just large companies by the way, small businesses, mid-size organizations and individuals. Hello, my name is Dave Vellante, and welcome to theCUBE's special look at managing risk in the digital supply chain, made possible by Red Hat. Today, we're going to hear from some of the top experts that will help you better understand how to think about the exposures in the software supply chain, some of the steps that we can all take to reduce our risks and how an endless game of escalation is likely going to play out over the next decade. Up next is our first segment hosted by Dave Nicholson of theCUBE. He's with Luke Hinds and Vincent Danen of Red Hat. They're going to talk about where the greatest threats exist and how to think about open source versus other commercial software. And discuss ways that organizations can reduce their risk going forward. Let's get started. When we return Andrea Hall, a specialist solution architect and project manager for security and compliance, along with Andrew Block, who is a distinguished architect, both from Red Hat will join me. You're watching theCUBE, the global leader in enterprise tech coverage. Now when we return Andrea Hall, who's a specialist solutions architect and project manager for security and compliance will join me along with Andrew Block, who's a distinguished architect. They're both from Red Hat. You're watching theCUBE, the global leader in enterprise tech coverage. So look, I wish I could say there's an end to these threats, there isn't. They will continue indefinitely. Now the adversaries they're well-funded, they're motivated and sophisticated. Your job as practitioners is to make it less profitable for hackers. At the end of the day, this is a business for them and the hackers want value it's all about ROI. That means benefit over cost. So if you can increase the denominator, it lowers their value and they'll go elsewhere to fish in a more productive place. The hard reality is bad user practices are going to trump good security every time. And that's where the vulnerability starts. So shoring up the basics, that's table stakes. Beyond that, working with strong technology partners can bring expertise to compliment your team's skills and reduce the threat against these sophisticated attacks. We hope this program was informative and will inspire you to take action. All of these videos are available on demand, check out thecube.net and theCUBE's and Red Hat's, social channels, and a variety of other places that we'll share with the community. Thanks to our guests today for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, this is Dave Vellante. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time. Do that again. (cough) Excuse me. So look, I wish I could say there's an end. I'll try it again. So look, I wish I could say there's an end to these threats, there isn't. They will continue indefinitely. The adversaries they're well-funded, they're motivated and they're sophisticated. Your job as practitioners is to try and make it less profitable for the hackers. At the end of the day, this is a business for them. And the hackers, what do they want? They want value. It's all about ROI for them. That means benefit over cost. If you can increase the denominator, it lowers their value and they're going to go elsewhere, and they'll fish in more productive places. The hard reality is that bad user practices will trump good security every time. And that's where the vulnerability starts. So shoring up the basics, that's table stakes. Now beyond that, working with strong technology partners can bring expertise to compliment your team's skills, and reduce the threat against these sophisticated attacks. We hope this program was informative and will inspire you to take action. All of these videos that are available on demand at thecube.net and both theCUBE's and Red Hat's social channels, and a variety of other places that we'll share with the community. Thanks to all our guests today for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team. This is Dave Vellante. I appreciate you watching and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Dave Vellante: Okay. We're back with Mark Hill. who's the Director of IT Operations at Digital River. Mark. Welcome to the cube. Good to see you. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. >> Hey, tell us a little bit more about Digital River, people know you as a, a payment platform, you've got marketing expertise. How do you differentiate from other e-commerce platforms? >> Well, I don't think people realize it, but Digital River was founded about 27 years ago. Primarily as a one-stop shop for e-commerce right? And so we offered site development, hosting, order management, fraud, expert controls, tax, um, physical and digital fulfillment, as well as multilingual customer service, advanced reporting and email marketing campaigns, right? So it was really just kind of a broad base for e-commerce. People could just go there. Didn't have to worry about anything. What we found over time as e-commerce has matured, we've really pivoted to a more focused API offering, specializing in just our global seller services. And to us that means payment, fraud, tax, and compliance management. So our, our global footprint allows companies to outsource that risk management and expand their markets internationally, um very quickly. And with low cost of entry. >> Yeah. It's an awesome business. And, you know, to your point, you were founded way before there was such a thing as the modern cloud, and yet you're a cloud native business. >> Yeah. >> Which I think talks to the fact that, that incumbents can evolve. They can reinvent themselves from a technology perspective. I wonder if you could first paint a picture of, of how you use the cloud, you use AWS, you know, I'm sure you got S3 in there. Maybe we could talk about that a little bit. >> Yeah, exactly. So when I think of a cloud native business, you kind of go back to the history. Well, 27 years ago, there wasn't a cloud, right? There wasn't any public infrastructure. It was, we basically stood our own data center up in a warehouse. And so over our history, we've managed our own infrastructure and collocated data centers over time through acquisitions and just how things worked. You know those over 10 data centers globally. for us it was expensive, well from a software hardware perspective, as well as, you know, getting the operational teams and expertise up to up to speed too. So, and it was really difficult to maintain and ultimately not core to our business, right? Nowhere in our mission statement, does it say that we're our goal is to manage data centers? So, so about five years ago, we started the journey from our hosted into AWS. It was a hundred percent lift it and shift plan, and we were able to bleed that migration a little over two years, right. Amazon really just fit for us. It was a natural, a natural place for us to land and they made it really easy here for us to not to say it wasn't difficult, but, but once in the public cloud, we really adopted a cloud first vision. Meaning that we'll not only consume their infrastructure as the service, but we'll also purposely evaluate and migrate to software as a service. So I come from a database background. So an example would be migrating from self deployed and managed relational databases over to AWS RDS, relational database service. You know, you're able to utilize the backups, the standby and the patching tools. Automagically, you know, with a click of the button. And that's pretty cool. And so we moved away from the time consuming operational tasks and, and really put our resources into revenue and generate new products, you know, like pivoting to an API offering. I always like to say that we stopped being busy and started being productive. >> Ha ha. I love that. >> That's really what the cloud has done for us. >> Is that you mean by cloud native? I mean, being able to take advantage of those primitives and native API. So what does that mean for your business? >> Yeah, exactly. I think, well, the first step for us was just to consume the infrastructure right, in that, but now we're looking at targeted services that they have in there too. So, you know, we have our, our, our data stream of services. So log analytics, for example, we used to put it locally on the machine. Now we're just dumping into an S3 bucket and we're using Kinesis to consume that data, put it in Eastic and go from there. And none of the services are managed by Digital River. We're just utilizing the capabilities that AWS has there too. So. >> And as an e-commerce player, retail company, we were ever concerned about moving to AWS as a possible competitor, or did you look at other clouds? What can you tell us about that? >> Yeah. And, and so I think e-commerce has really matured, right? And so we, we got squeezed out by the Amazons of the world. It's just not something that we were doing, but we had really a good area of expertise with our global seller services. But so we evaluated Microsoft. We evaluated AWS as well as Google. And, you know, back when we did that, Microsoft was Windows-based. Google was just coming into the picture, really didn't fit for what we were doing, but Amazon was just a natural fit. So we made a business decision, right? It was financially really the best decision for us. And so we didn't really put our feelings into it, right? We just had to move forward and it's better than where we're at. And we've been delighted actually. >> Yeah. It makes sense. Best cloud, best, best tech. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I want to talk about ChaosSearch. A lot of people describe it as a data lake for log analytics. Do you agree with that? You know, what does that, what does that even mean? >> Well, from, from our perspective, because they're self-managed solutions were costly and difficult to maintain, you know, we had older versions of self deployed using Splunk, other things like that, too. So over time, we made a conscious decision to limit our data retention in generally seven days. But in a lot of cases, it was zero. We just couldn't consume that, that log data because of the cost, intimidating in itself, because of this limit, you know, we've lost important data points use for incident triage, problem management, problem management, trending, and other things too. So ChaosSearch has offered us a manageable and cost-effective opportunity to store months, or even years of data that we can use for operations, as well as trending automation. And really the big thing that we're pushing into is an event driven architecture so that we can proactively manage our services. >> Yeah. You mentioned Elastic, I know I've talked to people who use the ELK Stack. They say you there's these exponential growth in the amount of data. So you have to cut it off at whatever. I think you said seven days or, or less you're saying, you're not finding that with, with ChaosSearch? >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that was one of the huge benefits here too. So, you know, we were losing out if there was a lower priority incident, for example, and people didn't get to it until eight, nine days later. Well, all the breadcrumbs are gone. So it was really just kind of a best guess or the incident really wasn't resolved. We didn't find a root cause. >> Yeah. Like my video camera down there. My, you know, my other house, somebody breaks in and I don't find out for, for two weeks and then the video's gone. That kind of same thing. >> Yep So, so, so how do you, can you give us some more detail on how you use your data lake and ChaosSearch specifically? >> Yeah, yeah. Yep. And, and so there's, there's many different areas, but what we found is we were able to easily consolidate data from multiple regions, into a single pane of glass to our customers. So internally and externally, you know, it relieves us of that operational support for the data extract transformation load process, right? It offered us also a seamless transition for the users, who were familiar with ElasticSearch, right? It wasn't, it wasn't difficult to move over. And so all these are a lot of selling points, benefits. And, and so now that we have all this data that we're able to, to capture and utilize, it gives us an opportunity to use machine learning, predictive analysis. And like I said, you know, driving to an event driven architecture. >> Okay. >> So that's, that's really what it's offered. And it's, it's been a huge benefit. >> So you're saying that you can speak the language of Elastic. You don't have to move the data out of an S3 bucket and you can scale more easily. Is that right? >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, so for us, just because we're running in multiple regions to drive more high availability, having that data available from multiple regions in a single pane of glass or a single way to utilize it, is a huge benefit as well. Just, you know, not to mention actually having the data. >> What was the initial catalyst to sort of rethink what you were doing with log analytics? Was it cost? Was it flexibility? Scale? >> There was, I think all of those went into it. One of the main drivers. So, so last year we had a huge project, so we have our ELK Stack and it's probably from a decade ago, right? And, you know, a version point oh two or something, you know, anyways, it's a very old, and we went through a whole project to get that upgraded and migrated over. And it was just, we found it impossible internally to do, right? And so this was a method for us to get out of that business, to get rid of the security risks, the support risk, and have a way for people to easily migrate over. And it was just a nightmare here, consolidating the data across regions. And so that was, that was a huge thing, but yeah, it was also been the cost, right? It was, we were finding it cheaper to use ChaosSearch and have more data available versus what we're doing currently in AWS. >> Got it. I wonder if you could, you could share maybe any stories that you have or examples that, that underscore the impact that this approach to analytics is having on your business, maybe your team's everyday activities, any, any metrics you can provide or even just anecdotal information. >> Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, one coming from an Oracle background here, so Digital River historically has been an Oracle shop, right? And we've been developing a reporting and analytics environment on Oracle and that's complicated and expensive, right? We had to use advance features in Oracle, like partitioning materialized views, and bring in other supporting software like Informatica, Hyperion, Sbase, right? And all of these required our large team with a wide set of expertise into these separate focus areas, right? And the amount of data that we were pushing at the ChaosSearch would simply have overwhelmed this legacy method for data analysis than a relational database, right? In that dimension, the human toll of, of the stress of supporting that Oracle environment, meant that a 24 by seven by 365 environment, you know, which requires little or no downtime. So, just that alone, it's a huge thing. So it's allowed us to break away from Oracle, it's allowed us to use new technologies that make sense to solve business solutions. >> I, you know, ChaosSearch is really interesting company to me. I'm sure like me, you see a lot of startups, I'm sure they're knocking on your door every day. And I always like to say, okay, where are they going after? Are they going after a big market? How are they getting product market fit? And it seems like ChaosSearch has really looked at, hard at log analytics and kind of maybe disrupting the ELK Stack. But I see, you know, other potential use cases, you know, beyond analyzing logs. I wonder if you agree, are there other use cases that you see in your future? >> Yeah, exactly. So I think there's, one area would be Splunk, for example, we have that here too. So we use Splunk versus, you know, flat file analysis or other ways to, to capture that data just because from a PCI perspective, it needs to be secured for our compliance and certification, right? So ChaosSearch allows us to do that. There's different types of authentication. Um, really a hodgepodge of authentication that we used in our old environment, but ChaosSearch has a more easily usable one, One that we could set up, one that can really segregate the data and allow us to satisfy our PCR requirements too. So, but Splunk, but I think really deprecating all of our ElasticSearch environments are homegrown ones, but then also taking a hard look at what we're doing with relational databases, right? 27 years ago, there was only relational databases; Oracle and Sequel Server. So we we've been logging into those types of databases and that's not, cost-effective, it's not supportable. And so really getting away from that and putting the data where it belongs and that was easily accessible in a secure environment and allowing us to, to push our business forward. >> Yep. When you say, where the data belongs, right? It sounds like you're putting it in the bit bucket, S3, leaving it there, because it's the the most cost-effective way to do it and then sort of adding value on top of it. That's, what's interesting about ChaosSearch to me. >> Yeah, exactly. Yup. Yup. Versus the high priced storage, you know, that you have to use for a relational database, you know, and not to mention that the standbys, the backups. So, you know, you're duplicating, triplicating all this data too in an expensive manner, so yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Copy. Create. Moving data around and it gets expensive. It's funny when you say about databases, it's true. But database used to be such a boring market. Now it's exploded. Then you had the whole no Sequel movement and Sequel, Sequel became the killer app. You know, it's like full circle, right? >> Yeah, exactly. >> Well, anyway, good stuff, Mark, really, really appreciate you coming on the Cube and, and sharing your perspectives. We'd love to have you back in the future. >> Oh yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. (upbeat music) >> Okay. So that's a wrap. You know, we're seeing a new era in data and analytics. For example, we're moving from a world where data lives in a cloud object store and needs to be extracted, moved into a new data store, transformed, cleansed, structured into a schema, and then analyzed. This cumbersome and expensive process is being revolutionized by companies like ChaosSearch that leave the data in place and then interact with it in a multi-lingual fashion with tooling, that's familiar to analytic pros. You know, I see a lot of potential for this technology beyond just login analytics use cases, but that's a good place to start. You know, really, if I project out into the future, we see a trend of the global data mesh, really taking hold where a data warehouse or data hub or a data lake or an S3 bucket is just a discoverable node on that mesh. And that's governed by an automated computational processes. And I do see ChaosSearch as an enabler of this vision, you know, but for now, if you're struggling to scale with existing tools or you're forced to limit your attention because data is exploding at too rapid a pace, you might want to check these guys out. You can schedule a demo just by clicking the button on the site to do that. Or stop by the ChaosSearch booth at AWS Reinvent. The Cube is going to also be there. We'll have two sets, a hundred guests. I'm Dave Volante. You're watching the Cube, your leader in high-tech coverage.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Braking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Intel's big announcement this week underscores the threat that the United States faces from China. The US needs to lead in semiconductor design and manufacturing. And that lead is slipping because Intel has been fumbling the ball over the past several years, a mere two months into the job, new CEO Pat Gelsinger wasted no time in setting a new course for perhaps, the most strategically important American technology company. We believe that Gelsinger has only shown us part of his plan. This is the beginning of a long and highly complex journey. Despite Gelsinger's clear vision, his deep understanding of technology and execution ethos, in order to regain its number one position, Intel we believe we'll need to have help from partners, competitors and very importantly, the US government. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis we'll peel the onion Intel's announcement of this week and explain why we're perhaps not as sanguine as was Wall Street on Intel's prospects. And we'll lay out what we think needs to take place for Intel to once again, become top gun and for us to gain more confidence. By the way this is the first time we're broadcasting live with Braking Analysis. We're broadcasting on the CUBE handles on Twitch, Periscope and YouTube and going forward we'll do this regularly as a live program and we'll bring in the community perspective into the conversation through chat. Now you may recall that in January, we kind of dismissed analysis that said Intel didn't have to make any major strategic changes to its business when they brought on Pat Gelsinger. Rather we said the exact opposite. Our view at time was that the root of Intel's problems could be traced to the fact that it wasn't no longer the volume leader. Because mobile volumes dwarf those of x86. As such we said that Intel couldn't go up the learning curve for next gen technologies as fast as its competitors and it needed to shed its dogma of being highly vertically integrated. We said Intel needed to more heavily leverage outsourced foundries. But more specifically, we suggested that in order for Intel to regain its volume lead, it needed to, we said at the time, spin out its manufacturing, create a joint venture sure with a volume leader, leveraging Intel's US manufacturing presence. This, we still believe with some slight refreshes to our thinking based on what Gelsinger has announced. And we'll talk about that today. Now specifically there were three main pieces and a lot of details to Intel's announcement. Gelsinger made it clear that Intel is not giving up its IDM or integrated device manufacturing ethos. He called this IDM 2.0, which comprises Intel's internal manufacturing, leveraging external Foundries and creating a new business unit called Intel Foundry Services. It's okay. Gelsinger said, "We are not giving up on integrated manufacturing." However, we think this is somewhat nuanced. Clearly Intel can't, won't and shouldn't give up on IDM. However, we believe Intel is entering a new era where it's giving designers more choice. This was not explicitly stated. However we feel like Intel's internal manufacturing arm will have increased pressure to serve its designers in a more competitive manner. We've already seen this with Intel finally embracing EUV or extreme ultraviolet lithography. Gelsinger basically said that Intel didn't lean into EUV early on and that it created more complexity in its 10 nanometer process, which dominoed into seven nanometer and as you know the rest of the story and Intel's delays. But since mid last year, it's embraced the technology. Now as a point of reference, Samsung started applying EUV for its seven nanometer technology in 2018. And it began shipping in early 2020. So as you can see, it takes years to get this technology into volume production. The point is that Intel realizes it needs to be more competitive. And we suspect, it will give more freedom to designers to leverage outsource manufacturing. But Gelsinger clearly signaled that IDM is not going away. But the really big news is that Intel is setting up a new division with a separate PNL that's going to report directly to Pat. Essentially it's hanging out a shingle and saying, we're open for business to make your chips. Intel is building two new Fabs in Arizona and investing $20 billion as part of this initiative. Now well Intel has tried this before earlier last decade. Gelsinger says that this time we're serious and we're going to do it right. We'll come back to that. This organizational move while not a spin out or a joint venture, it's part of the recipe that we saw as necessary for Intel to be more competitive. Let's talk about why Intel is doing this. Look at lots has changed in the world of semiconductors. When you think about it back when Pat was at Intel in the '90s, Intel was the volume leader. It crushed the competition with x86. And the competition at the time was coming from risk chips. And when Apple changed the game with iPod and iPhone and iPad, the volume equation flipped to mobile. And that led to big changes in the industry. Specifically, the world started to separate design from manufacturing. We now see firms going from design to tape out in 12 months versus taking three years. A good example is Tesla and his deal with ARM and Samsung. And what's happened is Intel has gone from number one in Foundry in terms of clock speed, wafer density, volume, lowest cost, highest margin to falling behind. TSMC, Samsung and alternative processor competitors like NVIDIA. Volume is still the maker of kings in this business. That hasn't changed and it confers advantage in terms of cost, speed and efficiency. But ARM wafer volumes, we estimate are 10x those of x86. That's a big change since Pat left Intel more than a decade ago. There's also a major chip shortage today. But you know this time, it feels a little different than the typical semiconductor boom and bust cycles. Semiconductor consumption is entering a new era and new use cases emerging from automobiles to factories, to every imaginable device piece of equipment, infrastructure, silicon is everywhere. But the biggest threat of all is China. China wants to be self-sufficient in semiconductors by 2025. It's putting approximately $60 billion into new chip Fabs, and there's more to come. China wants to be the new economic leader of the world and semiconductors are critical to that goal. Now there are those poopoo the China threat. This recent article from Scott Foster lays out some really good information. But the one thing that caught our attention is a statement that China's semiconductor industry is nowhere near being a major competitor in the global market. Let alone an existential threat to the international order and the American way of life. I think Scotty is stuck in the engine room and can't see the forest of the trees, wake up. Sure. You can say China is way behind. Let's take an example. NAND. Today China is at about 64 3D layers whereas Micron they're at 172. By 2022 China's going to be at 128. Micron, it's going to be well over 200. So what's the big deal? We say talk to us in 2025 because we think China will be at parody. That's just one example. Now the type of thinking that says don't worry about China and semi's reminds me of the epic lecture series that Clay Christiansen gave as a visiting professor at Oxford University on the history of, and the economics of the steel industry. Now if you haven't watched this series, you should. Basically Christiansen took the audience through the dynamics of steel production. And he asked the question, "Who told the steel manufacturers that gross margin was the number one measure of profitability? Was it God?" he joked. His point was, when new entrance came into the market in the '70s, they were bottom feeders going after the low margin, low quality, easiest to make rebar sector. And the incumbents nearly pulled back and their mix shifted to higher margin products and their gross margins went up and life was good. Until they lost the next layer. And then the next, and then the next, until it was game over. Now, one of the things that got lost in Pat's big announcement on the 23rd of March was that Intel guided the street below consensus on revenue and earnings. But the stock went up the next day. Now when asked about gross margin in the Q&A segment of the announcement, yes, gross margin is a if not the key metric in semi's in terms of measuring profitability. When asked Intel CFO George Davis explained that with the uptick in PCs last year there was a product shift to the lower margin PC sector and that put pressure on gross margins. It was a product mix thing. And revenue because PC chips are less expensive than server chips was affected as were margins. Now we shared this chart in our last Intel update showing, spending momentum over time for Dell's laptop business from ETR. And you can see in the inset, the unit growth and the market data from IDC, yes, Dell's laptop business is growing, everybody's laptop business is growing. Thank you COVID. But you see the numbers from IDC, Gartner, et cetera. Now, as we pointed out last time, PC volumes had peaked in 2011 and that's when the long arm of rights law began to eat into Intel's dominance. Today ARM wafer production as we said is far greater than Intel's and well, you know the story. Here's the irony, the very bucket that conferred volume adventures to Intel PCs, yes, it had a slight uptick last year, which was great news for Dell. But according to Intel it pulled down its margins. The point is Intel is loving the high end of the market because it's higher margin and more profitable. I wonder what Clay Christensen would say to that. Now there's more to this story. Intel's CFO blame the supply constraints on Intel's revenue and profit pressures yet AMD's revenue and profits are booming. So RTSMCs. Only Intel can't seem to thrive when there's this massive chip shortage. Now let's get back to Pat's announcement. Intel is for sure, going forward investing $20 billion in two new US-based fabrication facilities. This chart shows Intel's investments in US R&D, US CapEx and the job growth that's created as a result, as well as R&D and CapEx investments in Ireland and Israel. Now we added the bar on the right hand side from a Wall Street journal article that compares TSMC CapEx in the dark green to that of Intel and the light green. You can see TSMC surpass the CapEx investment of Intel in 2015, and then Intel took the lead back again. And in 2017 was, hey it on in 2018. But last year TSMC took the lead, again. And appears to be widening that lead quite substantially. Leading us to our conclusion that this will not be enough. These moves by Intel will not be enough. They need to do more. And a big part of this announcement was partnerships and packaging. Okay. So here's where it gets interesting. Intel, as you may know was late to the party with SOC system on a chip. And it's going to use its packaging prowess to try and leap frog the competition. SOC bundles things like GPU, NPU, DSUs, accelerators caches on a single chip. So better use the real estate if you will. Now Intel wants to build system on package which will dis-aggregate memory from compute. Now remember today, memory is very poorly utilized. What Intel is going to do is to create a package with literally thousands of nodes comprising small processors, big processors, alternative processors, ARM processors, custom Silicon all sharing a pool of memory. This is a huge innovation and we'll come back to this in a moment. Now as part of the announcement, Intel trotted out some big name customers, prospects and even competitors that it wants to turn into prospects and customers. Amazon, Google, Satya Nadella gave a quick talk from Microsoft to Cisco. All those guys are designing their own chips as does Ericsson and look even Qualcomm is on the list, a competitor. Intel wants to earn the right to make chips for these firms. Now many on the list like Microsoft and Google they'd be happy to do so because they want more competition. And Qualcomm, well look if Intel can do a good job and be a strong second sourced, why not? Well, one reason is they compete aggressively with Intel but we don't like Intel so much but it's very possible. But the two most important partners on this slide are one IBM and two, the US government. Now many people were going to gloss over IBM in this announcement, but we think it's one of the most important pieces of the puzzle. Yes. IBM and semiconductors. IBM actually has some of the best semiconductor technology in the world. It's got great architecture and is two to three years ahead of Intel with POWER10. Yes, POWER. IBM is the world's leader in terms of dis-aggregating compute from memory with the ability to scale to thousands of nodes, sound familiar? IBM leads in power density, efficiency and it can put more stuff closer together. And it's looking now at a 20x increase in AI inference performance. We think Pat has been thinking about this for a while and he said, how can I leave leap frog system on chip. And we think he thought and said, I'll use our outstanding process manufacturing and I'll tap IBM as a partner for R&D and architectural chips to build the next generation of systems that are more flexible and performant than anything that's out there. Now look, this is super high end stuff. And guess who needs really high end massive supercomputing capabilities? Well, the US military. Pat said straight up, "We've talked to the government and we're honored to be competing for the government/military chips boundary." I mean, look Intel in my view was going to have to fall down into face not win this business. And by making the commitment to Foundry Services we think they will get a huge contract from the government, as large, perhaps as $10 billion or more to build a secure government Foundry and serve the military for decades to come. Now Pat was specifically asked in the Q&A section is this Foundry strategy that you're embarking on viable without the help of the US government? Kind of implying that it was a handout or a bailout. And Pat of course said all the right things. He said, "This is the right thing for Intel. Independent of the government, we haven't received any commitment or subsidies or anything like that from the US government." Okay, cool. But they have had conversations and I have no doubt, and Pat confirmed this, that those conversations were very, very positive that Intel should head in this direction. Well, we know what's happening here. The US government wants Intel to win. It needs Intel to win and its participation greatly increases the probability of success. But unfortunately, we still don't think it's enough for Intel to regain its number one position. Let's look at that in a little bit more detail. The headwinds for Intel are many. Look it can't just flick a switch and catch up on manufacturing leadership. It's going to take four years. And lots can change in that time. It tells market momentum as well as we pointed out earlier is headed in the wrong direction from a financial perspective. Moreover, where is the volume going to come from? It's going to take years for Intel to catch up for ARMS if it never can. And it's going to have to fight to win that business from its current competitors. Now I have no doubt. It will fight hard under Pat's excellent leadership. But the Foundry business is different. Consider this, Intel's annual CapEx expenditures, if you divide that by their yearly revenue it comes out to about 20% of revenue. TSMC spends 50% of its revenue each year on CapEx. This is a different animal, very service oriented. So look, we're not pounding the table saying Intel's worst days are over. We don't think they are. Now, there are some positives, I'm showing those in the right-hand side. Pat Gelsinger was born for this job. He proved that the other day, even though we already knew it. I have never seen him more excited and more clearheaded. And we agreed that the chip demand dynamic is going to have legs in this decade and beyond with Digital, Edge, AI and new use cases that are going to power that demand. And Intel is too strategic to fail. And the US government has huge incentives to make sure that it succeeds. But it's still not enough in our opinion because like the steel manufacturers Intel's real advantage today is increasingly in the high end high margin business. And without volume, China is going to win this battle. So we continue to believe that a new joint venture is going to emerge. Here's our prediction. We see a triumvirate emerging in a new joint venture that is led by Intel. It brings x86, that volume associated with that. It brings cash, manufacturing prowess, R&D. It brings global resources, so much more than we show in this chart. IBM as we laid out brings architecture, it's R&D, it's longstanding relationships. It's deal flow, it can funnel its business to the joint venture as can of course, parts of Intel. We see IBM getting a nice licensed deal from Intel and or the JV. And it has to get paid for its contribution and we think it'll also get a sweet deal and the manufacturing fees from this Intel Foundry. But it's still not enough to beat China. Intel needs volume. And that's where Samsung comes in. It has the volume with ARM, has the experience and a complete offering across products. We also think that South Korea is a more geographically appealing spot in the globe than Taiwan with its proximity to China. Not to mention that TSMC, it doesn't need Intel. It's already number one. Intel can get a better deal from number two, Samsung. And together these three we think, in this unique structure could give it a chance to become number one by the end of the decade or early in the 2030s. We think what's happening is our take, is that Intel is going to fight hard to win that government business, put itself in a stronger negotiating position and then cut a deal with some supplier. We think Samsung makes more sense than anybody else. Now finally, we want to leave you with some comments and some thoughts from the community. First, I want to thank David Foyer. His decade plus of work and knowledge of this industry along with this collaboration made this work possible. His fingerprints are all over this research in case you didn't notice. And next I want to share comments from two of my colleagues. The first is Serbjeet Johal. He sent this to me last night. He said, "We are not in our grandfather's compute era anymore. Compute is getting spread into every aspect of our economy and lives. The use of processors is getting more and more specialized and will intensify with the rise in edge computing, AI inference and new workloads." Yes, I totally agree with Sarbjeet. And that's the dynamic which Pat is betting and betting big. But the bottom line is summed up by my friend and former IDC mentor, Dave Moschella. He says, "This is all about China. History suggests that there are very few second acts, you know other than Microsoft and Apple. History also will say that the antitrust pressures that enabled AMD to thrive are the ones, the very ones that starved Intel's cash. Microsoft made the shift it's PC software cash cows proved impervious to competition. The irony is the same government that attacked Intel's monopoly now wants to be Intel's protector because of China. Perhaps it's a cautionary tale to those who want to break up big tech." Wow. What more can I add to that? Okay. That's it for now. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. These episodes are all available as podcasts. All you got to do is search for Braking Analysis podcasts and you can always connect with me on Twitter @dvellante or email me at david.vellante, siliconangle.com As always I appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and in clubhouse please follow me so that you're notified when we start a room and start riffing on these topics. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Hello and welcome to this special CUBE update conversation, I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with my partner, Dave Vellante, co-host of theCUBE. Dave, lots of people are asking us what's going on with theCUBE what's happening. Obviously COVID people know that we go out to events to extract the signal from the noise. Number one leading in enterprise tech events, there's been no events. People want to know what's going on with theCUBE, theCUBE virtual. And they want to know when the events are going to come back and when it does what's theCUBE going to look like. >> Well, as you know, for a decade we were on premises at events, tech events, our great sponsors would have us there and let us do our thing. And we'd have editorial there, which is nice and have our own on discussions. But it was always at the host venue, or largely was, we've done some of our own shows but now with the virtual occurring we're driving a lot of our own events, We've got now the time to do that, and here's what I think, John, I really do believe that there's no question that in the second half of the year we're going to start to see some kind of hybrid emerge where you might see VIP's, almost like the Golden Globes, if you saw that, there may be 15, 20 people socially distant, comfortable, maybe a VIP event, 10, 20 CIO's in a room, and I think there's going to be a digital overlay to that, the virtual overlay to get greater reach. And then even in 2022, when physical comes back in a big way, I think virtual is here to stay. People are learning so much. They're learning the value of that long tail, that host event consumption that we've seen in our data and that's going to continue. And people are really learning how to fine tune that playbook. >> You know, I want to get your thoughts on this because I was explaining to someone about our CUBE virtual opportunity and events coming back. And as you know I've been an avid clubhouse user since December 30th and I've been noticing that the engagement is so high in these apps where people are collaborating. So, I want you to explain the dynamics as, as we have these cube virtual, our first event is March 24th, we've got Jerry Chen from Greylock, Michael Liebow from McKinsey, Jeff Barr from AWS, three big names, big individuals in terms of talent and start up power. But the names of the companies, McKinsey, Greylock, AWS, and me and you, you starting to see virtual as a format, Dave, where our community can come together to compliment theCUBE physical events and bring a new venue, a new format to engaging and creating content together. Can you explain what this means for audiences, our community and our sponsors? >> Well, I think a lot of companies are looking at just events in very narrow sense, we do an event, maybe it's a webinar, we're going to do an event, maybe it's small, mid-size, maybe even a large event. And then we're going onto the next one, onto the next one, so it's all about this sort of event cadence. And I think there's a much bigger picture here. And it's really about the content, the arc of content, the community, engaging with that community, over a long period of time, it's not a one-shot deal or they're not disposable, sort of events are kind of disposable in that regard. I think our philosophy is different. We really try to connect, build that community out. And then also bring that community back in, those who want to participate, it's almost like a reward system. If you participate in an event, a community event, the next one you're actually going to be featured, you're going to come on theCUBE, you're going to be participating in the program directly. And I think, John, for sponsors, it really means, we've seen that a lot of the value that the sponsors are getting really has not been replicated from the physical events. And so what we're trying to do here is give those many, many sponsors a platform in order to have their voices heard so that they can engage with broader communities and tap in to other communities. >> Dave, you know, we were just talking the other day about all these event platforms that are out there and we're a media platform and that there's a new dynamic out there where it's not about the number of events that you participated in, it's the audiences that you engage with and create content value together and sponsors that you enable, we enable, can enable to go direct to the consumer. And this is a big trend that we're seeing. Media as a service or direct to the consumer. You seeing companies like Tesla do it, Apple, even venture capital firms like Andreessen Horowitz going direct to the audience and cutting the middlemen out of being disintermediated. This is an interesting opportunity. Can you share your thoughts, because if a customer, our sponsor, is going to try to do that, they need to have media capabilities, not just event software. An event is a moment in time, media is ongoing for engaging. They're two different things but they have to work together. Can you explain what this means in basic terms to customers and audience? Why is this so important this new trend? >> I think it's really simple. The bottom line is that every company has to be in some way, shape or form a media company they're producing content, and everybody wants to control the narrative, control of the audience, except the way you do that is to produce great authentic content. And I will tell you most companies, certainly most companies in the tech business aren't really that good at it. There are a couple of standouts. You mentioned some big names like Tesla, so you see some VC firms doing it, but people are learning, and they're going to get better and better at it. But our basic premise and I think it's right on is that every company has to be a content company, a content producer. So what we want to do is help them do that. Give them tools, give them platforms, give them methodologies to really be able to in an agile fashion, produce high quality content and distribute it through a workflow and then iterate >> Agile Media, that's our opportunity and that's what we're going to try to do. And I think what I'm most excited about Dave is we can help our sponsors with a product that helps them go direct to their customer while we can at the same time increase our serving our audiences with high quality content so that they can work with us, consume or create with us. And I think that's a power dynamic that is a flywheel of innovation. This is kind of what media should be, and this is what we're trynna do. >> Well, that's a mega trend. And the other thing that I think people forget about sometime is that data, there's a data fabric that connects all these different events, all the different webinars, all the content initiatives, the content programs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, that data fabric flows in a distributed way throughout the year, throughout the network, throughout the community. And it's got to be a two-way street and it's fundamentally you have to put data at the core of those initiatives. >> And Dave, one of the exciting things we're doing that I'll share is on March 24th, 9:00 Pacific, we're doing theCUBE On Cloud Startups, our virtual event in conjunction with AWS, Amazon Web Services, startup showcase. We're going to showcase 10 of the hottest startups in the Amazon cloud ecosystem around data, data ops, and pre-public, the next UNICORE, the next deca-core, And these are the hottest companies that are going to be hitting the enterprise and emerging technology markets in the next year. We're going to showcase them in our format, this is theCUBE virtual, so check it out, join us, be part of our community. If you want to engage with us, definitely get on the roster. We're going to do these four times a year, and again, we do a lot more of them. And then you'll see us back in person, when the events come back, post pandemic. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante, thank you for your time and we'll see you on the 24th, or at our events, thank you.

>>We work with and we cover some of the old guard, older companies like Dell EMC, HPE, Oracle, IBM, Microsoft. And they're doing really good work pivoting and trying to be ready for this new wave. It's not just not a blockchain. It's just how the world works. Cloud, you know, IOT, but decentralized cannot be ignored. Are they ready? Do you think they're ready? Do you think they even understand what's coming and >>No, no, they're not ready. And it's not, to me. It's not even about just blockchain. I mean, blockchain technology they can adopt. The bigger issue is digital disruption and digital disruption is all about the data at the core of the organization and, and business models that are built around data. And if you think about the history of companies, it's human expertise and data is bolted on, and we've seen this time and time again. But if you look at the top five market cap companies, Facebook, Amazon, Google, et cetera, they're data companies. Data is at the center and they take human expertise and wrap it around there. So the future is going to be about innovation with data, with artificial intelligence and cloud economics, and the old guard doesn't have those things. Blockchain fits in there. To me, blockchain is about building out a new distributed web and on top of the old web and rewarding those who are building it. So it's a new form of open source where the builders get paid.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of AWS reinvent 2020 sponsored by Intel, AWS and our community partners. >>Hi, this is Dave Volante. Welcome back to the cubes. Continuous coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, the virtual version of the cube and reinvent. I'm here with David foyer. Who's the CTO Wiki Bon, and we're going to break down today's infrastructure keynote, which was headlined by Peter DeSantis. David. Good to see you. Good to see you. So David, we have a very tight timeframe and I just want to cover a couple of things. Something that I've learned for many, many years, working with you is the statement. It's all about recovery. And that really was the first part of Peter's discussion today. It was, he laid out the operational practices of AWS and he talked a lot about, he actually had some really interesting things up there. You know, you use the there's no compression algorithm for experience, but he talked a lot about availability and he compared AWS's availability philosophy with some of its competitors. >>And he talked about generators being concurrent and maintainable. He got, he took it down to the batteries and the ups and the thing that impressed me, most of the other thing that you've taught me over the years is system thinking. You've got to look at the entire system. That one little component could have Peter does emphasis towards a huge blast radius. So what AWS tries to do is, is constrict that blast radius so he can sleep at night. So non-disruptive replacements of things like batteries. He talked a lot about synchronous versus asynchronous trade-offs and it was like, kind of async versus sync one-on-one synchronous. You got latency asynchronous, you got your data loss to exposure. So a lot of discussions around that, but what was most interesting is he CA he compared and contrasted AWS's philosophy on availability zones, uh, with the competition. And he didn't specifically call out Microsoft and Google, but he showed some screenshots of their websites and the competition uses terms like usually available and generally available this meaning that certain regions and availability zone may not be available. That's not the case with AWS, your thoughts on that. >>They have a very impressive track record, uh, despite the, a beta the other day. Um, but they've got a very impressive track record. I, I think there is a big difference, however, between a general purpose computing and, uh, mission critical computing. And when you've got to bring up, uh, databases and everything else like that, then I think there are other platforms, uh, which, uh, which in the longterm, uh, AWS in my view, should be embracing that do a better job in mission critical areas, uh, in terms of bringing things up and not using data and recovery. So that's, that's an area which I think AWS will need to partner with in the past. >>Yeah. So, um, the other area of the keynote that was critical was, um, he spent a lot of time on custom Silicon and you and I have talked about this a lot, of course, AWS and Intel are huge partners. Uh, but, but we know that Intel owns its own fabs, uh, it's competitors, you know, we'll outsource to the other, other manufacturers. So Intel is motivated to put as much function on the real estate as possible to create general purpose processors and, and get as much out of that real estate as they possibly can. So what AWS has been been doing, and they certainly didn't throw Intel under the bus. They were very complimentary and, and friendly, but they also lay it out that they're developing a number of components that are custom Silicon. They talked about the nitro controllers, uh, inferential, which is, you know, specialized chips around, around inference to do things like PI torch, uh, and TensorFlow. >>Uh, they talked about training them, you know, the new training ship for training AI models or ML models. They spent a lot of time on Gravatar, which is 64 bit, like you say, everything's 64 bit these days, but it's the arm processor. And so, you know, they, they didn't specifically mention Moore's law, but they certainly taught, they gave, uh, a microprocessor one Oh one overview, which I really enjoyed. They talked about, they didn't specifically talk about Moore's law, but they talked about the need to put, put on more, more cores, uh, and then running multithreaded apps and the whole new programming models that, that brings out. Um, and, and, and basically laid out the case that these specialized processors that they're developing are more efficient. They talked about all these cores and the overhead that, that those cores bring in the difficulty of keeping those processors, those cores busy. >>Uh, and so they talked about symmetric, uh, uh, a simultaneous multi-threading, uh, and sharing cores, which like, it was like going back to the old days of, of microprocessor development. But the point being that as you add more cores and you have that overhead, you get non-linear, uh, performance improvements. And so, so it defeats the notion of scale out, right? And so what I, what I want to get to is to get your take on this as you've been talking for a long, long time about arm in the data center, and remind me just like object storage. We talked for years about object storage. It never went anywhere until Amazon brought forth simple storage service. And then object storage obviously is, you know, a mainstream mainstream storage. Now I see the same thing happening, happening with, with arm and the data center specifically, of course, alternative processes are taking off, but, but what's your take on all this? You, you listened to the keynote, uh, give us your takeaways. >>Well, let's go back to first principles for a second. Why is this happening? It's happening because of volume, volume, volume, volume is incredibly important, obviously in terms of cost. Um, and if you, if you're, if you look at a volume, uh, arm is, is, was based on the volumes that came from that from the, uh, from the, um, uh, handhelds and all of their, all of the mobile stuff that's been generating. So there's billions of chips being made, uh, on that. >>I can interrupt you for a second, David. So we're showing a slide here, uh, and, and it's, it's, it, it, it relates to volume and somewhat, I mean, we, we talk a lot about the volume that flash for instance gained from the consumer. Uh, and, and, and now we're talking about these emerging workloads. You call them matrix workloads. These are things like AI influencing edge work, and this gray area shows these alternative workloads. And that's really what Amazon is going after. So you show in this chart, you know, basically very small today, 2020, but you show a very large and growing position, uh, by the end of this decade, really eating into traditional, the traditional space. >>That, that that's absolutely correct. And, and that's being led by what's happening in the mobile market. If you look at all of the work that's going on, on your, on your, uh, Apple, uh, Apple iPhone, there's a huge amount of, uh, modern, uh, matrix workloads are going there to help you with your photography and everything like that. And that's going to come into the, uh, into the data center within, within two years. Uh, and that's what, what, uh, AWS is focusing on is capabilities of doing this type of new workload in real time. And, and it's hundreds of times, hundreds of times more processing, uh, to do these workloads and it's gotta be done in real time. >>Yeah. So we have a, we have a chart on that this bar chart that you've, you've produced. Uh, I don't know if you can see the bars here. Um, I can't see them, but, but maybe we can, we can editorialize. So on the left-hand side, you basically have traditional workloads, uh, on blue and you have matrix workloads. What you calling these emerging workloads and red you, so you show performance 0.9, five versus 50, then price performance for traditional 3.6. And it's more than 150 times greater for ARM-based workload. >>Yeah. And that's a analysis of the previous generation of arm. And if you take the new ones, the M one, for example, which has come in to the, uh, to the PC area, um, that's going to be even higher. So the arm is producing hybrid computers, uh, multi, uh, uh, uh, heterogeneous computers with multiple different things inside the computer. And that is making life a lot more efficient. And especially in the inference world, they're using NPUs instead of GPU's, they conferred about four times more NPUs that you can GPU's. And, um, uh, it, it's just a, uh, it's a different world and, uh, arm is ahead because it's done all the work in the volume area, and that's now going to go into PCs and, and it's going to, going to go into the data center. >>Okay, great. Now, yeah, if we could, uh, uh, guys bring up the, uh, the, the other chart that's titled workloads moving to ARM-based servers, this one is just amazing to me, David, you'll see that I, for some reason, the slides aren't translating, so, uh, forget that, forget the slides. So, um, but, but basically you have the revenue coming from arm as to be substantially higher, uh, in the out years, uh, or certainly substantially growing more than the traditional, uh, workload revenue. Now that's going to take a decade, but maybe you could explain, you know, why you see that. >>Yeah, the, the, the, the, the reason is that these matrix workloads, uh, and also, uh, the offload of like nitro is doing it's the offload of the storage and the networking from the, the main CPU's, uh, the dis-aggregation of computing, uh, plus the traditional workloads, which can move, uh, over or are moving over and where AWS, uh, and, and Microsoft and the PC and Apple, and the PC where those leaders are leading us is that they are doing the hard work of making sure that their software, uh, and their API APIs can utilize the capabilities of arm. Uh, so, uh, it's, it's the it, and the advantage that AWS has of course, is that enormous economies of scale, across many, many users. Uh, that's going to take longer to go into the, the enterprise data center much longer, but the, the, uh, Microsoft, Google and AWS, they're going to be leading the charge of this movement, all of arm into the data center. Uh, it was amazing some of the people or what some of the arm customers or the AWS customers were seeing today with much faster performance and much lower price. It was, they were, they were affirming. Uh, and, and the fundamental reason is that arm are two generations of production. They are in at the moment at five nano meters, whereas, um, Intel is still at 10. Uh, so that's a big, big issue that, uh, Intel have to address. Yeah. And so >>You get, you've been getting this core creep, I'll call it, which brings a lot of overhead. And now you're seeing these very efficient, specialized processes in your premises. We're going to see these explode for these new workloads. And in particular, the edge is such an enormous opportunity. I think you've pointed out that you see a big, uh, uh, market for edge, these edge emergent edge workloads kind of start in the data center and then push out to the edge. Andy Jassy says that the edge, uh, or, or we're going to bring AWS to the edge of the data center is just another edge node. I liked that vision, your thoughts. >>Uh, I, I think that is a, a compelling vision. I think things at the edge, you have many different form factors. So, uh, you, you will need an edge and a car for example, which is cheap enough to fit into a car and it's, but it's gotta be a hundred times more processing than it is in the, in the computers, in the car at the moment, that's a big leap and, and for, to get to automated driving, uh, but that's going to happen. Um, and it's going to happen on ARM-based systems and the amount of work that's going to go out to the edge is enormous. And the amount of data that's generated at the edge is enormous. That's not going to come back to the center, that's going to be processed at the edge, and the edge is going to be the center. If you're like of where computing is done. Uh, it doesn't mean to say that you're not going to have a lot of inference work inside the data center, but a lot of, lot of work in terms of data and processing is move, is going to move into the edge over the next decade. >>Yeah, well, many of, uh, AWS is edge offerings today, you know, assume data is going to be sent back. Although of course you see outpost and then smaller versions of outposts. That's a, to me, that's a clue of what's coming. Uh, basically again, bringing AWS to, to, to the edge. I want to also touch on, uh, Amazon's, uh, comments on renewable. Peter has talked a lot about what they're doing to reduce carbon. Uh, one of the interesting things was they're actually reusing their cooling water that they clean and reuse. I think, I think you said three or multiple times, uh, and then they put it back out and they were able to purify it and reuse it. So, so that's a really great sustainable story. There was much more to it. Uh, but I think, you know, companies like Amazon, especially, you know, large companies really have a responsibility. So it's great to see Amazon stepping up. Uh, anyway, we're out of time, David, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your insights really, really appreciate it. Those, by the way, those slides of Wiki bond.com has a lot of David's work on there. Apologize for some of the data not showing through, but, uh, working in real time here. This is Dave Volante for David foyer. Are you watching the cubes that continuous coverage of AWS reinvent 2020, we'll be right back.

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around >>the world. This is a cute conversation high, but this is Day Volonte. And as you know, we've been tracking the next generation of clouds. Sometimes we call it Cloud to two point. Frank's Lukman is here to really unpack this with me. Frank. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Yeah, you as well. They could see it >>s o obviously hot off your AIPO A lot of buzz around that. Uh, that's fine. We could we could talk about that, but I really want to talk about the future. What? Before we get off the I p o. That was something you told me when you're CEO service. Now you said, hey, we're priced to perfection, so it looks like snowflakes gonna be priced to perfection. It's a marathon, though. You You made that clear. I presume it's not any different here for you. Yeah, >>well, I think you know the service now. Journey was different in the sense that we were kind of under the underdogs, and people sort of discovered over the years the full potential of the company and I think there's stuff like they pretty much discovered a day. One. It's a little bit more, More sometimes it's nice to be an underdog. Were a bit of an over dog in this, uh, this particular scenario, but, you know, it is what it is, Andre. You know, it's all about execution delivering the results, delivering on our vision, Uh, you know, being great with our customers. And, uh, hopefully the chips will fall where they where they may. At that point, >>yeah, you're you're You're a poorly kept secret at this point, Frank. After a while, I wanted, you know, I've got some excerpts of your book that that I've been reading. And, of course, I've been following your career since the two thousands. You're off sailing. You mentioned in your book that you were kind of retired. You were done, and then you get sucked back in now. Why? I mean, are you in this for the sport? What's the story here? >>Uh, actually, that that's not a bad way of characterizing it. I think I am in that, uh, you know, for the sport, uh, you know the only way to become the best version of yourself is to be to be under the gun and, uh, you know, every single day. And that's that's certainly what we are. It sort of has its own rewards building great products, building great companies, regardless off you know what the spoils. Maybe it has its own rewards. And I It's hard for people like us to get off the field and, you know, hang it up. So here we are. >>You know, you're putting forth this vision now the data cloud, which obviously it's good marketing, but I'm really happy because I don't like the term Enterprise Data Warehouse. I don't think it reflects what you're trying to accomplish. E D. W. It's slow on Lee. A few people really know how to use it. The time value of data is gone by the time you know, your business is moving faster than the data in the D. W. And it really became a savior because of Sarbanes Oxley. That's really what it came a reporting mechanism. So I've never seen What you guys are doing is is e d w. So I want you to talk about the data cloud. I want to get into the to the vision a little bit and maybe challenge you on a couple things so our audience can better understand it. Yes. So >>the notion of a data cloud is is actually, uh, you know, type of cloud that we haven't had. I mean, data has been been fragmented and locked up in a million different places in different clouds. Different cloud regions, obviously on premise, um, And for data science teams, you know, they're trying thio drive analysis across datasets, which is incredibly hard, Which is why you know, a lot of this resorts to, you know, programming on bond things of that sort of. ITT's hardly scalable because the data is not optimized. The economics are not optimized. There's no governance model and so on. But a data cloud is actually the ability thio loosely couple and lightly Federated uh, data, regardless of where it is. So it doesn't have scale limitations or performance limitations. Uh, the way traditional data warehouses have had it. So we really have a fighting chance off really killing the silos and unlocking the bunkers and allowing the full promise of data sciences and ml On day I thio really happen. I mean, a lot of lot of the analysis that happens on data is on the single data set because it's just too damn hard, you know, to drive analysis across multiple data sets. And, you know, when we talk to our customers, they have very precise designs on what they're trying to do. They say, Look, we are trying to discover, you know, through through through deep learning You know what the patterns are that lead to transactions. You know, whether it's if you're streaming company. Maybe it's that you're signing up for a channel or you're buying a movie or whatever it is. What is the pattern you know, of data points that leads us to that desired outcome. Once you have a very accurate description of the data relationships, you know that results in that outcome, you can then search for it and scale it, you know, tens of million times over. That's what digital enterprises do, right? So in order to discover these patterns enriched the data to the point where the patterns become incredibly predictive. Uh, that's that's what snowflake is formed, right? But it requires a completely Federated Data mo because you're not gonna find a data pattern in the in the single data set per se right? So that's that's what it's all about. I mean, the outcomes of a data cloud are very, very closely related to the business outcomes that the user is seeking, right? It's not some infrastructure process. It has a very remote relationship with business outcome. This is very, very closely related. >>So it doesn't take a brain surgeon to look at the Trillion Years Club. And so I could see that I could see the big you know, trillion dollars apple $2 trillion market cap companies. They got data at the core, whereas most companies most incumbents. Yeah, it might be a bottling plant that the core, some manufacturing or some other processes they put, they put data around it in these silos. It seems like you're trying toe really? Bring that innovation and put data at the core. And you've got an architecture to do that. You talk about your multi cluster shared storage architecture. You mentioned you mentioned data sharing it. Will this, in your opinion, enable, for instance, incumbents to do what a lot of the startups were able to do with the cloud days? I mean they got access to data centers, which they they couldn't have before the cloud you're trying to do with something similar with data. >>Yeah, so So, you know, obviously there's no doubt that the cloud is a critical enabler. This wouldn't be happening. Uh, you know what? I was at the same time, the trails that have been blessed by the likes of Facebook and Google. Uh, e the reason those enterprises are so extraordinary valuable is is because of what they know. Uh, you know, through data and how they can monetize what they know through data. But that is now because that power is now becoming available, you know, to every single enterprise out there. Right, Because the data platform, the underlying cloud capabilities, we are now delivering that to anybody who wants it. Now, you still need to have strong date engineering data science capabilities. It's not like falling off a log, but fundamentally, those capabilities are now, you know, broadly accessible in the marketplace. >>So we're talking upfront about some of the differences between what you've done earlier in your career. Like I said, you're the worst kept secret, you know, Data domain. I would say it was sort of somewhat of a niche market. You you blew it up until it was very disruptive, but it was somewhat limited in what could be done. Uh, and and maybe some of that limitation, you know, wouldn't have occurred if you stay the price, uh, independent company service. Now you mop the table up because you really had no competition there, Not the case here. You you've got some of the biggest competitors in the world, so talk about that. And what gives you confidence that you can continue to dominate, >>But, you know, it's actually interesting that you bring up these companies. I mean, data. The man was a scenario where we were constrained on market and literally we were a data backup company. As you recall, we needed to move into backup software. Need to move the primary storage. While we knew it, we couldn't execute on it because it took tremendous resource is which, back in the day, it was much harder than one of this right now. So we ended up selling the company to E M. C and and now part of Dell. But way short, uh, we're left with some trauma from that experience, Uh, that, you know, why couldn't we, you know, execute on that transformation? So coming to service now, we were extremely. I'm certainly need personally, extremely attuned to the challenges that we have endured in our prior company. One of the reasons why you saw service now break out at scale at tremendous growth rights is because of what we have learned from the prior journey. We're not gonna ever get caught again in a situation where we could not sustain our markets and sustain our growth. So if service I was very much the execution model was very much a reaction to what we had encountered in the prior company. Now coming into snowflake totally different deal. Because not only is there's a large market, this is a developing market. I think you've pointed out in some of your broadcasting that this market is very much in flux on the reason is that you know, technology is now capable of doing things for for people and enterprises that they could never do before. So people are spending way mawr resource is than they ever thought possible on these new capability. So you can't think in terms of static markets and static data definitions, it means nothing. Okay, These things are so in transition right now, it's very difficult for people you know to to scope that the scale of this opportunity. >>Yeah. I wanna understand you're thinking around and, you know, I've written about the TAM, and can Snowflake grow into its valuation and the way I drew it, I said, Okay, you got data Lakes and you got Enterprise Data Warehouse. That's pretty well understood. But I called it data as a service to cover the closest analogy to your data cloud. And then even beyond that, when you start bringing in the edge and real time data, uh, talk about how you're thinking about that, Tam. And what what you have to do to participate. You have toe, you know, bring adjacent capabilities, ISAT this read data sharing that will get you there. In other words, you're not like a transaction system. You hear people talking about converge databases, you hear? Talk about real time inference at the edge that today anyway, isn't what snowflake is about. Does that vision of data sharing and the data cloud does that allow you to participate in that massive, multi $100 billion tam that that I laid out and probably others as well. >>Yeah, well, it is always difficult. Thio defined markets based on historical concept that probably not gonna apply whole lot for much longer. I mean, the way we think of it is that data is the beating heart of the digital enterprise on, uh, you know, digital enterprises today. What do you look at? People against the car door dash or so on. Um, they were built from the ground up to be digital on the prices and data Is the beating heart off their operation Data operations is their manufacturing, if you will, um, every other enterprise out there is is working very hard to become digital or part digital and is going to learn to develop data platforms like what we're talking about here to data Cloud Azaz. Well, as the expertise in terms of data engineering and data scientist to really fully become a digital enterprise, right. So, you know, we view data as driving operations off the digital enterprise. That's really what it iss right data, and it's completely data driven. And there's no people involved. People are developing and supporting the process. But in the execution, it is end to end. Data driven. Being that data is the is the signal that initiates the process is technol assess. Their there being a detective, and then they fully execute the entire machinery probe Problematic machinery, if you will, um, you know, of the processes that have been designed, for example, you know, I may fit a certain pattern. You know, that that leads to some transactional context. But I've not fully completed that pattern until I click on some Lincoln. And all of a sudden proof I have become, you know, a prime prospect system, the text that in the real time and then unleashes Oh, it's outreach and capabilities to get me to transact me. You and I are experiencing this every day. You know, when we're when we're online, you just may not fully re election. That's what's happening behind the scenes. That's really what this is all about. So and so to me, this is sort of the new online transaction processing is enter and, uh, you know, data digital. Uh, no process that is continually acquiring, analyzing and acting on data. >>Well, you've talked about the time time value of of data. It loses value over time. And to the extent that you can actually affect decisions, maybe before you lose the customer before you lose the patient even even more importantly or before you lose the battle. Uh, there's all kinds of, you know, mental models that you can apply this. So automation is a key part of that. And then again, I think a lot of people like you said, if you just try to look at historical markets, you can't really squint through those and apply them. You really have toe open up your mind and think about the new possibilities. And so I could see your your component of automation. I I see what's happening in the r P. A space and and I could see See these this massive opportunities Thio really change society, change business, your last thoughts. >>There's just there's just no scenario that I can envision where data is not completely core in central to a digital enterprise, period. >>Yeah, I think I really do think, Frank, your your your Your vision is misunderstood somewhat. I think people say Okay. Hey, we'll bet on salute men Scarpelli the team. That's great to do that. But I think this is gonna unfold in a way that people may be having predicted that maybe you guys, yourselves and your founders, you know, haven't have aren't able to predict as well. But you've got that good, strong architectural philosophy that you're pursuing and it just kind of feels right, doesn't it? >>You know, I mean, one of the 100 conversations and, uh, you know, things is the one of the reasons why we also wrote our book. You know, the rights of the data cloud is to convey to the marketplace that this is not an incremental evolution, that this is not sort of building on the past. There is a real step function here on the way to think about it is that typically enterprises and institutions will look at a platform like snowflakes from a workload context. In other words, I have this business. I have this workload. This is very much historically defined, by the way. And then they benchmark us, you know, against what they're what they're already doing on some legacy platform. And they decided, like, Yeah, this is a good fit. We're gonna put Snowflake here. Maybe there, but it's still very workload centric, which means that we are essentially perpetuating the mentality off the past. Right? We were doing it. Wanna work, load of the time We're creating the new silos and the new bunkers of data in the process. And we're really not approaching this with level of vision that the data science is really required to drive maximum benefit from data. So our arguments and this is this is not an easy arguments is to say, toc IOS on any other sea level person that wants to listen to that look, you know, just thinking about, you know, operational context and operational. Excellent. It's like we have toe have a platform that allows us unfettered access to the data that, you know, we may need to, you know, bring the analytical power to right. If you have to bring in political power to a diversity of data sets, how are we going to do that right? The data lives in, like, 500 different places. It's just not possible, right, other than with insane amounts of programming and complexity, and then we don't have the performance, and we don't have to economics, and we don't have the governance and so on. So you really want to set yourself up with a data cloud so that you can unleash your data science, uh, capabilities, your machine learning your deep learning capabilities, aan den, you really get the full throttle advantage. You know of what the technology can do if you're going to perpetuate the silo and bunkering of data by doing it won't work. Load of the time. You know, 5, 10 years from now, we're having the same conversation we've been having over the last 40 years, you know? >>Yeah. Operationalize ing your data is gonna require busting down those those silos, and it's gonna require something like the data cloud to really power that to the next decade and beyond. Frank's movement Thanks so much for coming in. The Cuban helping us do a preview here of what's to come. >>You bet, Dave. Thanks. >>All right. Thank you for watching. Everybody says Dave Volonte for the Cube will see you next time

>>from around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of active EO data driven 2020 brought to you by activity. >>However, this is Dave Volante for the Cube and appear to really tell you how excited we are about active CIOs. Data driven. We're partnering with active again this year. Of course, the conference has gone virtual. Data driven is a great event. It's a very customer oriented event. Active CEO is a company that deals with some really gnarly data problems at scale. They started in the space of copy data Management and have extended into Dev Ops and Analytics and Cloud. And so the Cube will be there. It's September 15th and 16th, 16th goto active geo dot com. Sign up. There's a free e book on Dev Ops. It's always a great program. We'll see you there. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> DataOps is a term derived from DevOps. The idea is to apply agile methods to your data pipeline as a way to improve data quality and reduce the elapsed time that it takes to get from a corpus of raw data to actual insights. Now, leading organizations are taking advantage of this approach really to operationalize data and evolve their data-driven culture. Many organizations struggle to deliver sustainable and meaningful business value through data. DataOps addresses this problem and is really designed to help you transform your data operation throughout the entire life cycle. Hi everybody. This is Dave Vellante. I'm with the CUBE and on May 27th we're gathering our community in a crowd chat made possible with support from IBM. Now what we're doing is we're going to hear from four data experts and these practitioners have successfully deployed DataOps within their companies. In this event, you're going to learn how they did it, what skills and processes they required and which technologies they deployed, and very importantly, how it impacted their business, so go to crowdchat.net/dataops and add the chat to your calendar. Hope to see you there. (mellow music) (upbeat music)

>> Hi, I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Wikibon Action Item Quick Take. Dave Vellante, data protection, cloud orchestration, overall digital business protection, pretty critical issue. We got some interesting things going on. What's happening? >> As organizations go digital, I see the confluence of privacy, security, data protection, business continuity coming together and I really would like to talk to CSOs in our community how they look at protecting their business in a digital world. So @dvellante, love to just do a crowd chat on this. Love your opinions as to what you think is changing in digital business data protection. >> Great so that's @dvellante, so reach out to Dave, let's get some folks together talking about this crucially important conversation. We'll be doing it in a couple of weeks. Thanks very much. This has been another Wikibon Action Item Quick Take. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Jose. It's theCUBE. Presenting big data, Silicon Valley. Brought to you by SiliconANGLE Media and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCube. I'm here with Dave Vellante, my co-host. Exclusive conversation around the role of data, data for good and bad. We always cover the role of data. We used to talk about AI and data for good but in this exclusive interview... And we have some exclusive material about data for bad. Dave, we've been talking about weaponizing data a year ago in SiliconEAGLE in theCUBE, around how data is being weaponized, and certainly in the elections. We know the Russians were involved. We know that data, you can buy journalists, you can create fake news. And for every click-bate and fake news is bad content. But also on the other side of this, there's good bate; good news. So the world's changin'. There needs to be a better place, needs to be some action taken, because there's now evidence that the role that the Russians had, using fake news and weaponizing it to sway the election and other things has been out there. So this is somethin' that we've been talkin' about. >> Yeah I mean the signature of the hacks is pretty clear. I think there is a distinct signature when you talk to the experts of when it's China or when it's Russia. Russia, very clever, about the way they target somebody whose maybe a pawn; but they try to make him or her feel like a king, grab their credentials and then work their way in. They've been doing this for decades, right? >> And the thing is to, is that now it's not just state-sponsored, there's new groups out there that they can enable open source tools. We report on theCUBE that terrorist organizations and bad actors, are taking open source tools and threats from state nations, posing as threats to democracy in the U.S. and other countries. This is a huge problem. >> And it's, in a way, it's harder than the nuclear problem. We had weapons pointed at each other, right. This is... The United States has a lot to lose. If we go on the offense, others can attack us and attack our systems, which are pretty mature. So, recently we talked to Garry Kasparov. I had an exclusive interview with him. He's very outspoken. Kasparov is the greatest chess player in history, by most accounts. And he is a political activist, he's an author. And he had a number of things to say about this. Let's listen to him, it's about a couple minute clip, and then we'll come back and talk about it. Watch this. >> Garry: Knowing Vladimir Putin and the mentality of the KGB mentality and the way he has been approaching the global problems; I had no doubt that the question was not if Putin would attack somewhere, but the question is when and where? And the attack on U.S. democracy was a surprise here but it was not surprise for us because we could see how they built these capabilities for more than a decade. Because they have been creating fake news industry in Russia to deal with Russian opposition 2004, 2005. Then they used against neighboring countries like Estonia in 2007. Then they moved to eastern Europe and then through western Europe. So when they ended up attacking the United States, they would've had almost a decade of experience. And it's quite unfortunate that, while there was kind of information about this attacks, the previous administration decided just to take it easy. And the result is that we have this case of interference; I hope there will be more indictments. I hope we'll get to the bottom of that. Because, we know that they are still pretty active in Europe. And they will never seize there-- >> Dave: Germany, France-- >> Garry: Exactly. But it's... I call Putin as: merchant of doubt. Because, unlike Soviet propaganda machine, he's not selling one ideology. All he wants is to spread chaos. So that's why it's not about and, oh this is the only, the right teaching. No, no, no. No, it's wrong, it's wrong, everything... Yeah, maybe there are 10 different ways of saying the truth. Truth is relevant. And that's a very powerful message because it's spreading these doubts. And he's very good in just creating these confusions and actually, bringing people to fight each other. And I have to say he succeeded-- >> Dave: Our president is taken a page out of that. Unfortunately. But I also think the big issue we face as a country, in the United States, is 2020. Is the election in 2020 is going to be about who leverages social media and the weaponization of social media. And the Russian attackers you talk to the black hats, very sophisticated, very intriguing how they come in, they find the credentials-- >> Garry: But look, we know, Jesus, every expert knows that in this industry, if you are trying to defend yourself, if you are on the defense all the time you will lose. It's a losing proposition. So the only way to deter the aggression is to make sure that they won't be counterattacks. So that there will be devastating blows, those who are attacking the United States. And you need the political will because, technology is here; America is still the leading power in the world. But the political will, unfortunately-- >> Dave: However, I would say that, but it's different than with nuclear warheads. Robert Gates was on theCUBE, he said to me, and I asked him about offense versus defense. He said the only thing about the Unite States is we have a lot to lose. So we have to be careful. (laughter) How aggressive we can be. >> Garry: No, exactly. That is just, it's, yes. It's a great error of uncertainty: what can you lose? If you show strength. But I can tell you exactly how you are going to lose everything, if you are not-- >> Dave: Vigilant. >> Garry: If you are not vigilant. If you are not deterrent. If you are not sending the right signal to the Putins of this world that aggression against America will have the price that you cannot bear. >> So John, pretty unequivocal comments from Garry Kasparov. So a lot of people don't believe that you can actually manipulate social media that way. You've been in social for a long time, since the beginning days. Maybe you could explain how one, would a country or a state sponsored terrorism; how would they go about manipulating individuals? >> You know Dave, I've been involved in internet infrastructure from the beginning days of Web 1.0 and through search engines. Student of the data. I've seen the data. I've seen our, the data that we have from our media company. I've seen the data on Facebook and here's the deal: there's bad actors doin' fake news, controlling everything, creating bad outcomes. It's important for everyone to understand that there's an actual opposite spectrum. Which is the exact opposite of the bad; there's a good version. So what we can learn from this is that there's a positive element of this, if we can believe it, which is actually a way to make it work for good. And that is trust, high-quality data, reputation and context. That is a very hard problem. Facebook is tryin' to solve it. You know we're workin' on solving that. But here's the anatomy of the hack. If you control the narrative, you can control the meme. If you can control the meme, you can control the idea. If you can control the idea, you can control the belief system. If you can control the belief system, you can control the population. That is exactly what has happened with the election. That is what's happening now in social networks. That's why so many people are turning off to social networks. Because this is hackable; you can actually hack the brains and outcomes of people. Because, controlling the narrative, controlling the meme, controlling the idea, controlling the belief system: you can impact the population. That has absolutely been done. >> Without firin' a shot. >> Without firing a shot. This is the new cold social network wars that are goin' on. And again, that has been identified, but there's an opposite effect. And the opposite effect is having a trust system, a short cut to trust; there will be a Google in our future, Google, like what Google did to search engines. It will be for social networks. That is, whoever can nail the trust, reputation, context: what is real and what is not. Will ultimately have all the users goin' to their doorstep. This is the opportunity for news organizations, for platforms and it's all going to be driven by new infrastructure, new software. This is something we can learn from. But there is a way to hack, it's been done. I've just laid it out. That's what's happening. >> Well, blockchain solved or play a role in solving this problem of reputation in your opinion. >> Well you know that I believe centralized is bad. 'Cause you can hack a centralized database and the data. Ownership is huge. I personally believe that blockchain and this notion of decentralized data ownership will ultimately go back to the people and that the decentralized applications and cryptocurrency leads a path, it's not yet proven, there's no clear visibility yet. But many believe that the wallet is a new browser and that cryptocurrency can put the power to the people; so that new data can emerge. To vet in a person who says they're something that they're not. News that says they're somethin' that they're not. This is a trust. This is something that is not yet available. That's what I'm sayin'. You can't get it with Google, you can't get it with Facebook. You can't get it in these platforms. So the world has to change at an infrastructure level. That's the opportunity to blockchain. Aside from all the things like who's going to give the power for the miners; a variety of technical issues. But conceptually, there is a path there. That's a new democracy. This is global phenomenon. It's a societal change. This is so cutting edge, but it's yet very promising at the same time. >> This is super important because I can't tell you how many times have you've received an email from one political persuasion or the other that lays out emphatically, that this individual did that or... And you do some research and you find out it's fake news. It happens all the time. >> There's no context for these platforms. Facebook optimizes their data for advertising optimization and you're going to see data being optimized for user control, community control, community curation. More objective not subjective data. This is the new algorithm, this is what machine learning in AI will make a difference. This is the new trust equation that will emerge. This is a phenomenal opportunity for entrepreneurs. If you're in the media business and you're not thinking about this, you will be out of business. That's our opinion. >> Excellent John. Well thanks for your thoughts and sharing with us how these hacks are done. This is real. The midterm elections, 2020 is really going to be won or lost on social media. Appreciate that. >> And Facebook's fumbling and they're going to try to do good. We'll see what they do. >> Alright. >> Alright. >> That's a wrap. Good job. >> Thanks for watching.

>> Announcer: Live from New York, it's theCUBE! Covering Machine Learning Everywhere: Build Your Ladder To AI. Brought to you by IBM. >> Well, good morning! Welcome here on theCUBE. Along with Dave Vellante, I'm John Walls. We're in Midtown New York for IBM's Machine Learning Everywhere: Build Your Ladder To AI. Great lineup of guests we have for you today, looking forward to bringing them to you, including world champion chess master Garry Kasparov a little bit later on. It's going to be fascinating. Dave, glad you're here. Dave, good to see you, sir. >> John, always a pleasure. >> How you been? >> Up from DC, you know, I was in your area last week doing some stuff with John Furrier, but I've been great. >> Stopped by the White House, drop in? >> You know, I didn't this time. No? >> No. >> Dave: My son, as you know, goes to school down there, so when I go by my hotel, I always walk by the White House, I wave. >> Just in case, right? >> No reciprocity. >> Same deal, we're in the same boat. Let's talk about what we have coming up here today. We're talking about this digital transformation that's going on within multiple industries. But you have an interesting take on it that it's a different wave, and it's a bigger wave, and it's an exciting wave right now, that digital is creating. >> Look at me, I've been around for a long time. I think we're entering a new era. You know, the great thing about theCUBE is you go to all these events, you hear the innovations, and we started theCUBE in 2010. The Big Data theme was just coming in, and it appeared, everybody was very excited. Still excited, obviously, about the data-driven concept. But we're now entering a new era. It's like every 10 years, the parlance in our industry changes. It was cloud, Big Data, SaaS, mobile, social. It just feels like, okay, we're here. We're doing that now. That's sort of a daily ritual. We used to talk about how it's early innings. It's not anymore. It's the late innings for those. I think the industry is changing. The describers of what we're entering are autonomous, pervasive, self-healing, intelligent. When you infuse artificial intelligence, I'm not crazy about that name, but when you infuse that throughout the landscape, things start to change. Data is at the center of it, but I think, John, we're going to see the parlance change. IBM, for example, uses cognitive. People use artificial intelligence. I like machine intelligence. We're trying to still figure out the names. To me, it's an indicator that things are changing. It's early innings now. What we're seeing is a whole new set of opportunities emerging, and if you think about it, it's based on this notion of digital services, where data is at the center. That's something that I want to poke at with the folks at IBM and our guests today. How are people going to build new companies? You're certainly seeing it with the likes of Uber, Airbnb, Waze. It's built on these existing cloud and security, off-the-shelf, if you will, horizontal technologies. How are new companies going to be built, what industries are going to be disruptive? Hint, every industry. But really, the key is, how will existing companies keep pace? That's what I really want to understand. >> You said, every industry's going to be disrupted, which is certainly, I think, an exciting prospect in some respects, but a little scary to some, too, right? Because they think, "No, we're fat and happy "and things are going well right now in our space, "and we know our space better than anybody." Some of those leaders might be thinking that. But as you point out, digital technology has transformed to the extent now that there's nobody safe, because you just slap this application in, you put this technology in, and I'm going to change your business overnight. >> That's right. Digital means data, data is at the center of this transformation. A colleague of mine, David Moschella, has come up with this concept of the matrix, and what the matrix is is a set of horizontal technology services. Think about cloud, or SaaS, or security, or mobile, social, all the way up the stack through data services. But when you look at the companies like Airbnb and Uber and, certainly, what Google is doing, and Facebook, and others, they're building services on top of this matrix. The matrix is comprised of vertical slices by industry and horizontal slices of technology. Disruptors are cobbling together through software and data new sets of services that are disrupting industries. The key to this, John, in my view, anyway, is that, historically, within healthcare or financial services, or insurance, or manufacturing, or education, those were very siloed. But digital and data allows companies and disruptors to traverse silos like never before. Think about it. Amazon buying Whole Foods. Apple getting into healthcare and financial services. You're seeing these big giants disrupt all of these different industries, and even smaller guys, there's certainly room for startups. But it's all around the data and the digital transformation. >> You spoke about traditional companies needing to convert, right? Needing to get caught up, perhaps, or to catch up with what's going on in that space. What do you do with your workforce in that case? You've got a bunch of great, hardworking people, embedded legacy. You feel good about where you are. And now you're coming to that workforce and saying, "Here's a new hat." >> I think that's a great question. I think the concern that one would have for traditional companies is, data is not foundational for most companies. It's not at their core. The vast majority of companies, the core are the people. You hear it all the time. "The people are our greatest asset." That, I hate to say it, but it's somewhat changing. If you look at the top five companies by market cap, their greatest asset is their data, and the people are surrounding that data. They're very, very important because they know how to leverage that data. But if you look at most traditional companies, people are at their core. Data is kind of, "Oh, we got this bolt-on," or it's in a bunch of different silos. The big question is, how do they close that gap? You're absolutely right. The key is skillsets, and the skills have to be, you know, we talk about five-tool baseball players. You're a baseball fan, as am I. Well, you need multi-tool players, those that understand not only the domain of whether it's marketing or sales or operational expertise or finance, but they also require digital expertise. They know, for example, if you're a marketing professional, they know how to do hypertargeting. They know how to leverage social. They know how to do SEO, all these digital skills, and they know how to get information that's relevant and messaging out into the marketplace and permeate that. And so, we're entering, again, this whole new world that's highly scalable, highly intelligent, pervasive, autonomous. We're going to talk about that today with a lot of their guests, with a lot of our guests, that really are kind of futurists and have thought through, I think, the changes that are coming. >> You can't have a DH anymore, right, that's what you're saying? You need a guy that can play the field. >> Not only play the field, not only a utility player, but somebody who's a utility player, but great. Best of breed at all these different skillsets. >> Machine learning, we haven't talked much about that, and another term, right, that certainly has different definitions, but certainly real specific applications to what's going on today. We'll talk a lot about ML today. Your thoughts about that, and how that squares into the artificial intelligence picture, and what we're doing with all those machines out there that are churning 24/7. >> Yeah, so, real quick, I know we're tight on time here. Artificial intelligence to me is the umbrella. Machine learning is the application of math and algorithms to solve a particular problem or answer a particular question. And then there's deep learning, which is highly focused neural networks that go deeper and deeper and deeper, and become auto-didactic, self-learning, in a manner. Those are just the very quick and rudimentary description. Machine learning to me is the starting point, and that's really where organizations really want to start to learn and begin to close the gap. >> A lot of ground to cover, and we're going to do that for you right here on theCUBE as we continue our coverage of Machine Learning Everywhere: Your Ladder To AI, coming up here, IBM hosting us in Midtown, New York. Back with more here on theCUBE in just a bit. (fast electronic music)

(hip hop music) >> Hi, I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Wikibon action item quick take. Dave Vellante, digital disruption, everybody that's going to be effected has been effected, right? Nothin' to worry about. What do you think? (chuckles) >> Yeah, great question. I'd like to ask the question, What industries are most susceptible to digital disruption? So certain industries have clearly been, shocked by digital transformations, cabs, motels, seen it in retail, package software, IT itself with cloud, certainly music publishing, advertising. Is it Negroponte, the bits versus atoms? Well, publishing, music, advertising seemingly have been disrupted more quickly and easily than heavily atom-based businesses, like cabs and hotels and retail, but it doesn't seem to be the determining factor. The other observation is that certain industries have not been upended, banking, insurance, automobiles, health care, defense even. Why is that? Is it because they're insulated from disruption and safe, as Peter you were asking? I don't think so. They're regulated, is that why? Maybe that's part of it. They also carry a high-risk profile. Health care, for example, has been incredibly difficult to change. But indeed, you know, probably the most, needed change is required in health care. But it's risky. Same with insurance, same with banking. So risk is likely a major factor, but, so the premise I'd like to put forth and study further, is that all industries are susceptible to digital disruption, but at varying degrees. With different barriers to that disruption, which is a function of risk as I mentioned, legal considerations, entrenchment, the available data models, skill sets, and maybe the ability of the disruptors to enter new markets, which is related to the data. That's what I'd like to put forth and study further. >> Excellent. This has been Dave Vellante, Peter Burris, a Wikibon action item quick take. (hip hop music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's the CUBE covering HPE Discover 2017. Brought to you by Hewlett Packard Enterprise. >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to the CUBE's special presentation of HPE Hewlett Packard Enterprise Discover 2017. I'm John Furrier and my cohost Dave Vellante. For three days of wall to wall coverage. This is our intro section of our three days of Hewlett Packard Enterprises transformation and coverage. This is our seventh year covering HPE Discover, formerly HP Discover after the split. Lot of commentary today. We have seen HP over the years transform. We've been watching this, sort of a front row seat to HP, now HPE, really getting hammered in stock market their last earnings again didn't meet expectations, but this is not a quick turn around. I mean, this is a market place that's shifting. HP's had their plan now for multiple years. We're going to cover it for three days. But interesting. The world is turning. You had tweeted this morning on a Twitter storm you put together @dvellante, twitter.com. So it's Dvellante. Everyone should check it out. But it really highlights it. True private cloud, or private cloud, cloud has impacted everything. HP's kind of shifted their cloud strategy. It's becoming clear what they're doing, but private cloud, true private cloud, is legit. It's a 250 plus billion dollar market opportunity, as you guys have put it out on wikibond. Hybrid cloud is very relevant, and on the horizon is multi-cloud, the ability for customers to use multiple clouds. And on top of that we have machine learning, AI, and a myriad of things. Marketplace is shifting significantly, HP has been transforming significantly over the past five plus years. Your thoughts this year at HPE Discover and marketplace conditions and are they poised for success? >> Well, John, we're in the fifth year now of the turnaround that Meg Whitman initiated, and I think it's the light at the end of the tunnel year. HPE-- We've said many times at theCUBE that HP has the strength to grow. Well, it's certainly shrunk. They're about a 50 billion dollar company with a 26 billion dollar market cap, and there's a way to eek out some growth. If you separate all-- Call it Remain Co. Like the remaining company. Take out the software, take out EDS, take out actually tier one, tier one customer who's-- who's not buying as many servers as possible, or as they had previously, and the company grew about one percent. So what you're seeing, John, is some quarters HP grows a little bit, some companies it shrinks a little bit, but essentially it's facing what most legacy hardware companies are facing. Legacy hardware's down, everybody's scrambling to what we call true private cloud, which is essentially hybrid IT, trying to mimic the public cloud. And then HP adds in a dose of IOT at the edge, and then, really importantly, services. Services have never been more important for this company, and that is what I called earlier Remain Co. The remaining HP. Once it jettisons the software business this fall, that's what will be left, basically a 50 billion dollar company with about 55,000 employees. >> I was looking at a-- some IOT stories just last night, and a Business Insider article came up. It was an image, and it had listed the companies that-- by average age. And you had, obviously, Facebook, average age like 28. HP was at the highest end, like 39. And I want to bring up this notion of changing market because HP has always been customer focused, so the question is, if they are truly customer focused, as is Amazon, for instance, we talked to Andy Chasey, he talks about that all the time. And the context of where you've been and where you're going, historical legacy, declining markets, say servers for instance. And where you're going. It brings up an interesting point. And notable is recently Amazon web services hired Gosling, the founder of Java, which had a big conversation on the internet around age. A lot of the winners are older systems guys. So what's interesting is I actually look at that Business Insider article and saying actually age is a wisdom point now, because right now HP's got to solve customer problems. In addition to transforming themselves, they're looking at a customer base that's changing their requirements, so having experience is actually a good thing, as pointed out by some of the big leaders right now in hyperscale are old m systems guys. This is an opportunity for HP, and I think that's where I want to get your thoughts on. Are they customer focused in your mind, and if they are going to be, continue to be, what should their customer focus be? >> Let's talk about what customers are doing. So, first and foremost, customers are deinvesting in non-differentiated, you know, hardware maintenance and provisioning, okay. So they're shifting IT labor from provisioning luns and servers into digital transformation initiatives, so that's sort of one piece. The other pieces there as they're shifting those resources in places up the value stack. So it's applications; it's, as you say, digital transformation services; it's new IOT activity. So they're only investing-- from the HP standpoint, HP's an infrastructure company. They're only investing in infrastructure that looks like public cloud and can focus on hybrid. So are they customer focused? Yes. And what are they doing there? So they're investing in MMA, they're doing some MMA tuck ins. They're focused on develop-- delivering platforms with an API that are essentially programmable infrastructure. And very importantly, they're in a low margin business now. It's sort of low 30 percent gross margin business. So they have to get volume. How do they get volume? How do they reach those customers? Partners. So you are seeing a new partner emphasis. You know, are they customer focused? Yes, but they're really right now partner focused to reach those customers and increase their scale and coverage. That is a critical difference between the new HP, not that they always didn't have partners, now partners are critical to their success. >> One of the things that's the theme here is simplifying hybrid IT and I think from a customer standpoint, simplifying that is going to be critical. At the same time, creating new services opportunities. So I want to get your thoughts on the top story, at least from my perspective, here at the show at HPE Discover, and that is, is it better to be big or small? And HP has a strategy of a collection of small, nimble, agile business units. Dell EMC, for instance, has a strategy of being big and using leverage and supply chain and what not. Two different strategies. We pointed that out on the web. Certainly we've heard a lot of different approaches. Your thoughts on HP's strategy vis a vis bigger and better, or smaller and nimbler is better. >> Well, HP's not small. Hewlett Packard Enterprises is still big. I mean, it's a, it's a company that's twice the size, or more, than EMC was at its peak. So it's still a very, very large company. The difference is, John, I think they're focused. So they really are focused on hardware and infrastructure, the support, you know, the digital transformation, whatever you want to call it. The big question I have, John, is now that HP is getting rid of its software business, its outsourcing and EDS business, what is HP going to do with regard to software and services. So, they reinvented the whole services organization. The big question mark for me is software. Will they get into this, what you call inter-clouding business? Software to manage multiple clouds. It's a wide open space, everybody's going after it, and I haven't heard much from HP there. So what is their software strategy? Now, the other thing I'll add, is the good thing about being smaller is that it's going to generate cash for them. So they're going to get, going to get cash out of the spin merge with CSC. They're going to get cash out of the spin merge with MicroFocus. And you've already seen HP become more aquisitive with the Simplivity acquisition, certainly with Nimble recently, previously the Aruba acquisition, and some other tuck ins. That's critical in order for HP to reposition and continue to grow. >> Yeah, and my take on HP right now is they got to be more assertive. Their voice in the marketplace, at an industry level, has to be very assertive and relevant. I think that's something you've got to put the stake in the ground and hammer that home. I think we got the piece parts, and I think the spin merge is not a "they're getting out of that business." They're just decoupling from the monolithic entity that was HPE and creating kind of cohesive entities. And I think there's a strategy, in my opinion, that looks really strong there in the sense that, hey, at the end of the day, it's going to be a services game. And if you look at the IOT Edge, to me that's the tell sign of the marketplace. As the value shifts from IT-- So, simplifying IT, having true private cloud, having some hybrid pathways for IT, maybe a declining market from a service perspective, but simplifying that and operationalizing that and shifting the value to the Edge with services is a huge opportunity for HP. This is something that not a lot of people on Wall Street are kind of rocking at this point. But the value shift from IT, centralized IT, to a distributed kind of network effect is a really interesting play. And I think this a bet I think HP's making from my standpoint, and that's where the intelligent Edge piece comes in. If they could nail that, and layer on the services, and bring real value paths for customers with outcomes that are, not pie in the sky-- Sure, they throw some AI in there, machine learning, it's all relevant. Getting into open source. Taking that labs machine and memster technology and bringing that out at an appropriate timing. With the services in place. I think that's a good strategy for HP. >> Well, you mentioned Wall Street. Look, Wall Street is very tactically focused on the quarter and the margin decline, and, you know, D-Ram prices doubled in January, okay? So a company like HPE is going to get hurt by that. So that's head winds for these guys, these currency head winds. The stock, the price will go up and down. But the point I want to make, John, is there's a new competitive reality. CIOs have woken up to open source and cloud. And as a result, we've emerged into a new competitive dynamic where HPE is competing with Dell. It's competing with China, and it's competing with AWS. And it's one different-- Two differentiable advantages or services, you know, clearly HP's doubling down on services. I'll actually add a third. The second is partnerships, and the third big one, which is green field, is an ecosystem around IOT and what they call the intelligent edge. >> Well, Dave, great commentary. My, again, my feeling is customer focus at an industry level, having the right product mix that's relevant in the, for the solutions customers want. And also their partners. Leveraging that partner network. Really going to be a two pivot points for me. I see that as great leverage for HP. At the end of the day, everyone talking about declining market of servers and storage. I actually don't see that. There's more computers available now, more storage available. The key is can that shift to true private cloud, which again is a 250 billion dollar market, partly declining. And hybrid cloud is certainly growing. So, declining and growing, I mean they're all different perspectives, and I think HP's messaging here-- Come the end of the show, we're going to look at that and understand and impact and unpack that, that analysis. So, I'm Jeff Furrier, Dave Vellante. Day one of coverage, of three days of wall to wall coverage at HPE Discover 2017. More live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

why from London England it's the kue covering discover 2016 London brought to you by Hewlett Packard Enterprise now here's your host dave vellante and tall gilles welcome back to HP discover 2016 everybody from the banks of the River Thames were here at London Excel Excel London i'm here with paul gill and my co-host this is day two of HPE discover coming live the cube the worldwide leader in live tech coverage paul yesterday we heard a lot about composable we had Meg Whitman on stage what they do here is the keynote sir actually in the afternoon at two o'clock local time and so they take a big two-hour break in the afternoon for keynotes normally at these events they inject you with the kool-aid first thing in the morning well here they give people time to get up and cruise in or European very European and so and so as a result they go tend to go later into the evening so the show floor closes you know sometime after six o'clock and then the night life begins last night was a the event normally is a big storage party and the first night last night they combined it for the data center infrastructure group and but you know it's it's a lot of lot of business going on here people are doing you know dinners in the evenings and you know customer dinners and the like there's an analyst event here of course it's running simultaneous to AWS reinvent which has I understand about 130 analysts there and a lot of press I think 30,000 people showed up for that shows I'm sure a more invigorated crowd there as well with all the growth that's going on in AWS growth diversity you know it's in Vegas at one point amazon had said they're not going to make that show bigger than 10,000 people but it's exploded and then so the juxtapose that sort of high-growth business with the low growth cash flow 50 billion dollar be a myth which is HPE a lot smaller than it used to be yep and I think the next discover let's see will the deal will the micro focus deal probably won't close until August so it's really about a year from now we're going to see a really different HPE and of course don't rule out some other big moves with the balance sheet cleaned up you know HP could make some additional I certainly got the cash and and they've got the and it would behoove them to do something more dramatic something to inject some more energy one thing I took away from our interviews yesterday was a very tame button down crowd the the people we had on the cube for the most part were were generous toward their competitors they were courteous gentlemanly if you will and I really was hoping to see more energy more more competitiveness they had opportunities to take on dell to take on IBM wouldn't even mention their competitors by name and that's something that maybe we'd like to see HP inject a little boat a little bit more competitive energy into the HP experience at least that's what I took away from yesterday he got that a little bit from a cloud glass I was challenging him on some of the compatible stuff and and you know he sort of laid out I thought he did a decent job of it laid out so why they're different why the fluid pools of infrastructure being able to call on whether storage or compute or networking it will was different than say you know juxtaposed relative to do tanukhs which they said was sort of chunks of infrastructure that you couldn't scale independently and and that was sort of interesting but a concept that is still taking shape I sense they haven't really defined what composable is about in a way that they can articulate to the market it's an interesting idea it's certainly something that given their their partner ecosystem should should play well to do customers who already have a hybrid or a environment with a lot of different players but you know IBM has been working on cognitive for a couple years now and I think has finally got a message kind of crystallized ground that HP is doing this with composable but they're still earlier on in the process and the other thing we heard from Alistair winter who sort of challenged my assertion that HP was really a products company said no or actually a services company and so I'm not sure do they leave with services to the leawood products I still see HP es of technology and products company first and then services sort of wrapped around that although he suggested that there's a new emerging set of services that are non product related that they're leading with and so that's an interesting so market doesn't get excited about services the marque gets excited about products and so they I can understand them wanting to lead with with a products orientation because otherwise you know your Accenture and which is buttoned down very profitable company but but not one that inspires a lot of enthusiasm among their their customer base so I can see why they're doing that but I'll clearly services the the Prophet engine of HPD right now yes and I agree with you I think you know it's a it's interesting actually again we're talking about reinvent which is a services company right but their packaging products as services and I think they deliver their messaging largely comparing themselves to products we have this database so we have this storage and it's better because and it's fast and you know a lot of speed and feed sort of sort of angles but packaged as services and a question is will that change over time will it shift more toward business outcomes which frankly are less interesting to cover and it's harder to compare companies on the basis of you know business company from business outcome from company a versus business outcome from Company B I think the difference with AWS is they are they are creating new markets I mean they are enable a new kind of company kinds of companies to to grow and flourish and it's a whole new model that yes there are services company but not in any conventional definition of a services company there's a it's an entirely do new type of service and so that generates a lot of excitement but cloud will mature over time they will have to to figure out you know how what message how they position themselves when they are a big slow growing company which they will be at something well the other interesting thing we keep bringing up amazon me and we do so because it's essentially the new reference model for how organizations are competing other vendor community is competing them you see that with HP with their capacity on demand that's a direct response to the public class lutely and so then you're right i think the big innovation of AWS is its business model you know in essence and so you know again will we see thinking about this way look at the stack that am on is building i'm in there in two semiconductors they're into storage there in to compute their into database there into middle where and and you know hundreds and hundreds of other services compare that to the HP approach which is to partner now for the stack yeah and that's what I really came away we do as someone who is not is intimately involved with HPE as as you have been and and some of the other Wikibon analysts have been this was all about partnering and what HP is doing is making a liability into an asset right they were late to the cloud to the public cloud they abandoned the public cloud and they got some criticism for that but they have turned that liability into an asset by divesting themselves of anything that wasn't core to the infrastructure business and partnering like crazy it seems like that I mean it's a strategy is very interesting strategy if they can pull it off if they can be the best company to partner with they could build an ecosystem that that really can't be matched well and and again you'd love to make comparison so you've sencha Lee got HPE lining up you know against del we'll see what happens with Lenovo they need some time to sort of bake that strategy but essentially those come those companies are comfortable with lower margin businesses all right re selling other people's technologies largely you know it used to be Intel and Microsoft and now it's this broader ecosystem notwithstanding EMC obviously owns a lot of its its own IP so del now now owns that but for instance dell dell emc resells newt annex that's a key part of its portfolio and they're doing hundreds of millions of dollars of business there and and dell is comfortable with that dell is a company that when they were public had nineteen percent gross margin CMC's got you know close to sixty percent gross margins before it went private you blend those together and you're talking about thirty percent gross margin maybe thirty three percent gross margin similar to where hpe is it's an operating profit model that's much much lower we're talking you know the the low teens amazon web services operating profit in in their most recent quarter was around thirty three percent these are non-gaap numbers so think about the the difference there i mean you're talking double the operating profit and this is it no to both infrastructure company so the big question I'm getting to is will Amazon go up to stack further you're seeing it eat away into database and you know you watch what Microsoft did over the years and it kept going up and up and up in the up the stack you're seeing companies basically run their applications on AWS notwithstanding there are many many companies like for instance service now who own their own cloud but many companies are choosing to run their applications inside of AWS will AWS go and sort of eat away at that part of the ecosystem why shouldn't they I mean if your if your AWS right now you're you're king of the hill and as Microsoft did in the 90s when it was king of the hill it initiated a land grab Microsoft got into every market it could because he could afford to fail and and it wouldn't impact the bottom line significantly so use on is they move fast they do a lot but what do they do it at every at every reinvent its shock and awe just the sheer number of new products and services they announced at the show is is always it's phenomenal well the the why shouldn't they is because it's basically would be screwing their ecosystem but you know their mantra is well we focus on the customers so sort of coming back to hpe what does HPE do does HPE make a big move between now and in a year from now at you know when we're here let's say next year at London discover will there be a big move will HP go out and try to make a big move yeah I'm not sure what's out there I mean there were rumors about them acquiring new tanukhs there was other rumors about them acquiring simplicity I don't think that would be game-changing he also move like Citrix might be game changing but that's sort of a shift back to the to the clouds but imagine what way game changer this plane we made a merger with Cisco I I don't know these are it's it's hard to think of an acquisition that would really change the rules right now there aren't that many affordable companies out there that that are transformative so a couple of choices then is to continue to do tuck-ins which they absolutely will do and must do and can do now because the balance sheet is substantially cleaned up you know and or rather make some kind of big move like you said you know but will I think the it was real that they were talking to emc I think there was no question now about that is there another move like that you mentioned Cisco there perhaps our I've been throwing Citrix into the Hat I don't see those as necessarily game-changer citrix is a game changer and and too much overlap with cisco yes absolutely yeah and so that doesn't make a lot of sense to me and so as a result one could say all right well certainly in the near term anyway what HP will do is continue to do some tuck-ins the interesting thing to me is going to be HP's hpe software strategy HP definitely said okay look the software portfolio that we've collected over the last decade is not working you know or we can't figure out how to make it work so let's just sell it off get some cash in there keep our foot in the water in terms of having some ownership but there's a lot of software companies out there will they start over yes and and will they start tucking in some of those software companies to make their infrastructure run better to enable the hybrid you know cloud to be more simple that's that I think is very viable approach not necessarily earth shattering but I think it's a viable approach and one that's steady as she goes keep throwing off cash and serve the customers through the channels an excellent point Dave I mean they have to be careful as you said of not polluting their their partner ecosystem not competing with their partners but there's certainly going to be areas of software business where they do not have a robust partner ecosystem those would be natural areas for them to acquire into ok we r wrapping up the the opening we got a wall-to-wall coverage here all day long we'll go be go until 6 p.m. local time so keep right there there's the cube this is HPE discover 2016 live from London we're right back

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Spark became a top level Apache project in 2014, and then shortly thereafter, burst onto the big data scene. Spark, along with the cloud, transformed and in many ways, disrupted the big data market. Databricks optimized its tech stack for Spark and took advantage of the cloud to really cleverly deliver a managed service that has become a leading AI and data platform among data scientists and data engineers. However, emerging customer data requirements are shifting into a direction that will cause modern data platform players generally and Databricks, specifically, we think, to make some key directional decisions and perhaps even reinvent themselves. Hello and welcome to this week's wikibon theCUBE Insights, powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we're going to do a deep dive into Databricks. We'll explore its current impressive market momentum. We're going to use some ETR survey data to show that, and then we'll lay out how customer data requirements are changing and what the ideal data platform will look like in the midterm future. We'll then evaluate core elements of the Databricks portfolio against that vision, and then we'll close with some strategic decisions that we think the company faces. And to do so, we welcome in our good friend, George Gilbert, former equities analyst, market analyst, and current Principal at TechAlpha Partners. George, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you, Dave. >> All right, let me set this up. We're going to start by taking a look at where Databricks sits in the market in terms of how customers perceive the company and what it's momentum looks like. And this chart that we're showing here is data from ETS, the emerging technology survey of private companies. The N is 1,421. What we did is we cut the data on three sectors, analytics, database-data warehouse, and AI/ML. The vertical axis is a measure of customer sentiment, which evaluates an IT decision maker's awareness of the firm and the likelihood of engaging and/or purchase intent. The horizontal axis shows mindshare in the dataset, and we've highlighted Databricks, which has been a consistent high performer in this survey over the last several quarters. And as we, by the way, just as aside as we previously reported, OpenAI, which burst onto the scene this past quarter, leads all names, but Databricks is still prominent. You can see that the ETR shows some open source tools for reference, but as far as firms go, Databricks is very impressively positioned. Now, let's see how they stack up to some mainstream cohorts in the data space, against some bigger companies and sometimes public companies. This chart shows net score on the vertical axis, which is a measure of spending momentum and pervasiveness in the data set is on the horizontal axis. You can see that chart insert in the upper right, that informs how the dots are plotted, and net score against shared N. And that red dotted line at 40% indicates a highly elevated net score, anything above that we think is really, really impressive. And here we're just comparing Databricks with Snowflake, Cloudera, and Oracle. And that squiggly line leading to Databricks shows their path since 2021 by quarter. And you can see it's performing extremely well, maintaining an elevated net score and net range. Now it's comparable in the vertical axis to Snowflake, and it consistently is moving to the right and gaining share. Now, why did we choose to show Cloudera and Oracle? The reason is that Cloudera got the whole big data era started and was disrupted by Spark. And of course the cloud, Spark and Databricks and Oracle in many ways, was the target of early big data players like Cloudera. Take a listen to Cloudera CEO at the time, Mike Olson. This is back in 2010, first year of theCUBE, play the clip. >> Look, back in the day, if you had a data problem, if you needed to run business analytics, you wrote the biggest check you could to Sun Microsystems, and you bought a great big, single box, central server, and any money that was left over, you handed to Oracle for a database licenses and you installed that database on that box, and that was where you went for data. That was your temple of information. >> Okay? So Mike Olson implied that monolithic model was too expensive and inflexible, and Cloudera set out to fix that. But the best laid plans, as they say, George, what do you make of the data that we just shared? >> So where Databricks has really come up out of sort of Cloudera's tailpipe was they took big data processing, made it coherent, made it a managed service so it could run in the cloud. So it relieved customers of the operational burden. Where they're really strong and where their traditional meat and potatoes or bread and butter is the predictive and prescriptive analytics that building and training and serving machine learning models. They've tried to move into traditional business intelligence, the more traditional descriptive and diagnostic analytics, but they're less mature there. So what that means is, the reason you see Databricks and Snowflake kind of side by side is there are many, many accounts that have both Snowflake for business intelligence, Databricks for AI machine learning, where Snowflake, I'm sorry, where Databricks also did really well was in core data engineering, refining the data, the old ETL process, which kind of turned into ELT, where you loaded into the analytic repository in raw form and refine it. And so people have really used both, and each is trying to get into the other. >> Yeah, absolutely. We've reported on this quite a bit. Snowflake, kind of moving into the domain of Databricks and vice versa. And the last bit of ETR evidence that we want to share in terms of the company's momentum comes from ETR's Round Tables. They're run by Erik Bradley, and now former Gartner analyst and George, your colleague back at Gartner, Daren Brabham. And what we're going to show here is some direct quotes of IT pros in those Round Tables. There's a data science head and a CIO as well. Just make a few call outs here, we won't spend too much time on it, but starting at the top, like all of us, we can't talk about Databricks without mentioning Snowflake. Those two get us excited. Second comment zeros in on the flexibility and the robustness of Databricks from a data warehouse perspective. And then the last point is, despite competition from cloud players, Databricks has reinvented itself a couple of times over the year. And George, we're going to lay out today a scenario that perhaps calls for Databricks to do that once again. >> Their big opportunity and their big challenge for every tech company, it's managing a technology transition. The transition that we're talking about is something that's been bubbling up, but it's really epical. First time in 60 years, we're moving from an application-centric view of the world to a data-centric view, because decisions are becoming more important than automating processes. So let me let you sort of develop. >> Yeah, so let's talk about that here. We going to put up some bullets on precisely that point and the changing sort of customer environment. So you got IT stacks are shifting is George just said, from application centric silos to data centric stacks where the priority is shifting from automating processes to automating decision. You know how look at RPA and there's still a lot of automation going on, but from the focus of that application centricity and the data locked into those apps, that's changing. Data has historically been on the outskirts in silos, but organizations, you think of Amazon, think Uber, Airbnb, they're putting data at the core, and logic is increasingly being embedded in the data instead of the reverse. In other words, today, the data's locked inside the app, which is why you need to extract that data is sticking it to a data warehouse. The point, George, is we're putting forth this new vision for how data is going to be used. And you've used this Uber example to underscore the future state. Please explain? >> Okay, so this is hopefully an example everyone can relate to. The idea is first, you're automating things that are happening in the real world and decisions that make those things happen autonomously without humans in the loop all the time. So to use the Uber example on your phone, you call a car, you call a driver. Automatically, the Uber app then looks at what drivers are in the vicinity, what drivers are free, matches one, calculates an ETA to you, calculates a price, calculates an ETA to your destination, and then directs the driver once they're there. The point of this is that that cannot happen in an application-centric world very easily because all these little apps, the drivers, the riders, the routes, the fares, those call on data locked up in many different apps, but they have to sit on a layer that makes it all coherent. >> But George, so if Uber's doing this, doesn't this tech already exist? Isn't there a tech platform that does this already? >> Yes, and the mission of the entire tech industry is to build services that make it possible to compose and operate similar platforms and tools, but with the skills of mainstream developers in mainstream corporations, not the rocket scientists at Uber and Amazon. >> Okay, so we're talking about horizontally scaling across the industry, and actually giving a lot more organizations access to this technology. So by way of review, let's summarize the trend that's going on today in terms of the modern data stack that is propelling the likes of Databricks and Snowflake, which we just showed you in the ETR data and is really is a tailwind form. So the trend is toward this common repository for analytic data, that could be multiple virtual data warehouses inside of Snowflake, but you're in that Snowflake environment or Lakehouses from Databricks or multiple data lakes. And we've talked about what JP Morgan Chase is doing with the data mesh and gluing data lakes together, you've got various public clouds playing in this game, and then the data is annotated to have a common meaning. In other words, there's a semantic layer that enables applications to talk to the data elements and know that they have common and coherent meaning. So George, the good news is this approach is more effective than the legacy monolithic models that Mike Olson was talking about, so what's the problem with this in your view? >> So today's data platforms added immense value 'cause they connected the data that was previously locked up in these monolithic apps or on all these different microservices, and that supported traditional BI and AI/ML use cases. But now if we want to build apps like Uber or Amazon.com, where they've got essentially an autonomously running supply chain and e-commerce app where humans only care and feed it. But the thing is figuring out what to buy, when to buy, where to deploy it, when to ship it. We needed a semantic layer on top of the data. So that, as you were saying, the data that's coming from all those apps, the different apps that's integrated, not just connected, but it means the same. And the issue is whenever you add a new layer to a stack to support new applications, there are implications for the already existing layers, like can they support the new layer and its use cases? So for instance, if you add a semantic layer that embeds app logic with the data rather than vice versa, which we been talking about and that's been the case for 60 years, then the new data layer faces challenges that the way you manage that data, the way you analyze that data, is not supported by today's tools. >> Okay, so actually Alex, bring me up that last slide if you would, I mean, you're basically saying at the bottom here, today's repositories don't really do joins at scale. The future is you're talking about hundreds or thousands or millions of data connections, and today's systems, we're talking about, I don't know, 6, 8, 10 joins and that is the fundamental problem you're saying, is a new data error coming and existing systems won't be able to handle it? >> Yeah, one way of thinking about it is that even though we call them relational databases, when we actually want to do lots of joins or when we want to analyze data from lots of different tables, we created a whole new industry for analytic databases where you sort of mung the data together into fewer tables. So you didn't have to do as many joins because the joins are difficult and slow. And when you're going to arbitrarily join thousands, hundreds of thousands or across millions of elements, you need a new type of database. We have them, they're called graph databases, but to query them, you go back to the prerelational era in terms of their usability. >> Okay, so we're going to come back to that and talk about how you get around that problem. But let's first lay out what the ideal data platform of the future we think looks like. And again, we're going to come back to use this Uber example. In this graphic that George put together, awesome. We got three layers. The application layer is where the data products reside. The example here is drivers, rides, maps, routes, ETA, et cetera. The digital version of what we were talking about in the previous slide, people, places and things. The next layer is the data layer, that breaks down the silos and connects the data elements through semantics and everything is coherent. And then the bottom layers, the legacy operational systems feed that data layer. George, explain what's different here, the graph database element, you talk about the relational query capabilities, and why can't I just throw memory at solving this problem? >> Some of the graph databases do throw memory at the problem and maybe without naming names, some of them live entirely in memory. And what you're dealing with is a prerelational in-memory database system where you navigate between elements, and the issue with that is we've had SQL for 50 years, so we don't have to navigate, we can say what we want without how to get it. That's the core of the problem. >> Okay. So if I may, I just want to drill into this a little bit. So you're talking about the expressiveness of a graph. Alex, if you'd bring that back out, the fourth bullet, expressiveness of a graph database with the relational ease of query. Can you explain what you mean by that? >> Yeah, so graphs are great because when you can describe anything with a graph, that's why they're becoming so popular. Expressive means you can represent anything easily. They're conducive to, you might say, in a world where we now want like the metaverse, like with a 3D world, and I don't mean the Facebook metaverse, I mean like the business metaverse when we want to capture data about everything, but we want it in context, we want to build a set of digital twins that represent everything going on in the world. And Uber is a tiny example of that. Uber built a graph to represent all the drivers and riders and maps and routes. But what you need out of a database isn't just a way to store stuff and update stuff. You need to be able to ask questions of it, you need to be able to query it. And if you go back to prerelational days, you had to know how to find your way to the data. It's sort of like when you give directions to someone and they didn't have a GPS system and a mapping system, you had to give them turn by turn directions. Whereas when you have a GPS and a mapping system, which is like the relational thing, you just say where you want to go, and it spits out the turn by turn directions, which let's say, the car might follow or whoever you're directing would follow. But the point is, it's much easier in a relational database to say, "I just want to get these results. You figure out how to get it." The graph database, they have not taken over the world because in some ways, it's taking a 50 year leap backwards. >> Alright, got it. Okay. Let's take a look at how the current Databricks offerings map to that ideal state that we just laid out. So to do that, we put together this chart that looks at the key elements of the Databricks portfolio, the core capability, the weakness, and the threat that may loom. Start with the Delta Lake, that's the storage layer, which is great for files and tables. It's got true separation of compute and storage, I want you to double click on that George, as independent elements, but it's weaker for the type of low latency ingest that we see coming in the future. And some of the threats highlighted here. AWS could add transactional tables to S3, Iceberg adoption is picking up and could accelerate, that could disrupt Databricks. George, add some color here please? >> Okay, so this is the sort of a classic competitive forces where you want to look at, so what are customers demanding? What's competitive pressure? What are substitutes? Even what your suppliers might be pushing. Here, Delta Lake is at its core, a set of transactional tables that sit on an object store. So think of it in a database system, this is the storage engine. So since S3 has been getting stronger for 15 years, you could see a scenario where they add transactional tables. We have an open source alternative in Iceberg, which Snowflake and others support. But at the same time, Databricks has built an ecosystem out of tools, their own and others, that read and write to Delta tables, that's what makes the Delta Lake and ecosystem. So they have a catalog, the whole machine learning tool chain talks directly to the data here. That was their great advantage because in the past with Snowflake, you had to pull all the data out of the database before the machine learning tools could work with it, that was a major shortcoming. They fixed that. But the point here is that even before we get to the semantic layer, the core foundation is under threat. >> Yep. Got it. Okay. We got a lot of ground to cover. So we're going to take a look at the Spark Execution Engine next. Think of that as the refinery that runs really efficient batch processing. That's kind of what disrupted the DOOp in a large way, but it's not Python friendly and that's an issue because the data science and the data engineering crowd are moving in that direction, and/or they're using DBT. George, we had Tristan Handy on at Supercloud, really interesting discussion that you and I did. Explain why this is an issue for Databricks? >> So once the data lake was in place, what people did was they refined their data batch, and Spark has always had streaming support and it's gotten better. The underlying storage as we've talked about is an issue. But basically they took raw data, then they refined it into tables that were like customers and products and partners. And then they refined that again into what was like gold artifacts, which might be business intelligence metrics or dashboards, which were collections of metrics. But they were running it on the Spark Execution Engine, which it's a Java-based engine or it's running on a Java-based virtual machine, which means all the data scientists and the data engineers who want to work with Python are really working in sort of oil and water. Like if you get an error in Python, you can't tell whether the problems in Python or where it's in Spark. There's just an impedance mismatch between the two. And then at the same time, the whole world is now gravitating towards DBT because it's a very nice and simple way to compose these data processing pipelines, and people are using either SQL in DBT or Python in DBT, and that kind of is a substitute for doing it all in Spark. So it's under threat even before we get to that semantic layer, it so happens that DBT itself is becoming the authoring environment for the semantic layer with business intelligent metrics. But that's again, this is the second element that's under direct substitution and competitive threat. >> Okay, let's now move down to the third element, which is the Photon. Photon is Databricks' BI Lakehouse, which has integration with the Databricks tooling, which is very rich, it's newer. And it's also not well suited for high concurrency and low latency use cases, which we think are going to increasingly become the norm over time. George, the call out threat here is customers want to connect everything to a semantic layer. Explain your thinking here and why this is a potential threat to Databricks? >> Okay, so two issues here. What you were touching on, which is the high concurrency, low latency, when people are running like thousands of dashboards and data is streaming in, that's a problem because SQL data warehouse, the query engine, something like that matures over five to 10 years. It's one of these things, the joke that Andy Jassy makes just in general, he's really talking about Azure, but there's no compression algorithm for experience. The Snowflake guy started more than five years earlier, and for a bunch of reasons, that lead is not something that Databricks can shrink. They'll always be behind. So that's why Snowflake has transactional tables now and we can get into that in another show. But the key point is, so near term, it's struggling to keep up with the use cases that are core to business intelligence, which is highly concurrent, lots of users doing interactive query. But then when you get to a semantic layer, that's when you need to be able to query data that might have thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of joins. And that's a SQL query engine, traditional SQL query engine is just not built for that. That's the core problem of traditional relational databases. >> Now this is a quick aside. We always talk about Snowflake and Databricks in sort of the same context. We're not necessarily saying that Snowflake is in a position to tackle all these problems. We'll deal with that separately. So we don't mean to imply that, but we're just sort of laying out some of the things that Snowflake or rather Databricks customers we think, need to be thinking about and having conversations with Databricks about and we hope to have them as well. We'll come back to that in terms of sort of strategic options. But finally, when come back to the table, we have Databricks' AI/ML Tool Chain, which has been an awesome capability for the data science crowd. It's comprehensive, it's a one-stop shop solution, but the kicker here is that it's optimized for supervised model building. And the concern is that foundational models like GPT could cannibalize the current Databricks tooling, but George, can't Databricks, like other software companies, integrate foundation model capabilities into its platform? >> Okay, so the sound bite answer to that is sure, IBM 3270 terminals could call out to a graphical user interface when they're running on the XT terminal, but they're not exactly good citizens in that world. The core issue is Databricks has this wonderful end-to-end tool chain for training, deploying, monitoring, running inference on supervised models. But the paradigm there is the customer builds and trains and deploys each model for each feature or application. In a world of foundation models which are pre-trained and unsupervised, the entire tool chain is different. So it's not like Databricks can junk everything they've done and start over with all their engineers. They have to keep maintaining what they've done in the old world, but they have to build something new that's optimized for the new world. It's a classic technology transition and their mentality appears to be, "Oh, we'll support the new stuff from our old stuff." Which is suboptimal, and as we'll talk about, their biggest patron and the company that put them on the map, Microsoft, really stopped working on their old stuff three years ago so that they could build a new tool chain optimized for this new world. >> Yeah, and so let's sort of close with what we think the options are and decisions that Databricks has for its future architecture. They're smart people. I mean we've had Ali Ghodsi on many times, super impressive. I think they've got to be keenly aware of the limitations, what's going on with foundation models. But at any rate, here in this chart, we lay out sort of three scenarios. One is re-architect the platform by incrementally adopting new technologies. And example might be to layer a graph query engine on top of its stack. They could license key technologies like graph database, they could get aggressive on M&A and buy-in, relational knowledge graphs, semantic technologies, vector database technologies. George, as David Floyer always says, "A lot of ways to skin a cat." We've seen companies like, even think about EMC maintained its relevance through M&A for many, many years. George, give us your thought on each of these strategic options? >> Okay, I find this question the most challenging 'cause remember, I used to be an equity research analyst. I worked for Frank Quattrone, we were one of the top tech shops in the banking industry, although this is 20 years ago. But the M&A team was the top team in the industry and everyone wanted them on their side. And I remember going to meetings with these CEOs, where Frank and the bankers would say, "You want us for your M&A work because we can do better." And they really could do better. But in software, it's not like with EMC in hardware because with hardware, it's easier to connect different boxes. With software, the whole point of a software company is to integrate and architect the components so they fit together and reinforce each other, and that makes M&A harder. You can do it, but it takes a long time to fit the pieces together. Let me give you examples. If they put a graph query engine, let's say something like TinkerPop, on top of, I don't even know if it's possible, but let's say they put it on top of Delta Lake, then you have this graph query engine talking to their storage layer, Delta Lake. But if you want to do analysis, you got to put the data in Photon, which is not really ideal for highly connected data. If you license a graph database, then most of your data is in the Delta Lake and how do you sync it with the graph database? If you do sync it, you've got data in two places, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a unified repository. I find this semantic layer option in number three actually more promising, because that's something that you can layer on top of the storage layer that you have already. You just have to figure out then how to have your query engines talk to that. What I'm trying to highlight is, it's easy as an analyst to say, "You can buy this company or license that technology." But the really hard work is making it all work together and that is where the challenge is. >> Yeah, and well look, I thank you for laying that out. We've seen it, certainly Microsoft and Oracle. I guess you might argue that well, Microsoft had a monopoly in its desktop software and was able to throw off cash for a decade plus while it's stock was going sideways. Oracle had won the database wars and had amazing margins and cash flow to be able to do that. Databricks isn't even gone public yet, but I want to close with some of the players to watch. Alex, if you'd bring that back up, number four here. AWS, we talked about some of their options with S3 and it's not just AWS, it's blob storage, object storage. Microsoft, as you sort of alluded to, was an early go-to market channel for Databricks. We didn't address that really. So maybe in the closing comments we can. Google obviously, Snowflake of course, we're going to dissect their options in future Breaking Analysis. Dbt labs, where do they fit? Bob Muglia's company, Relational.ai, why are these players to watch George, in your opinion? >> So everyone is trying to assemble and integrate the pieces that would make building data applications, data products easy. And the critical part isn't just assembling a bunch of pieces, which is traditionally what AWS did. It's a Unix ethos, which is we give you the tools, you put 'em together, 'cause you then have the maximum choice and maximum power. So what the hyperscalers are doing is they're taking their key value stores, in the case of ASW it's DynamoDB, in the case of Azure it's Cosmos DB, and each are putting a graph query engine on top of those. So they have a unified storage and graph database engine, like all the data would be collected in the key value store. Then you have a graph database, that's how they're going to be presenting a foundation for building these data apps. Dbt labs is putting a semantic layer on top of data lakes and data warehouses and as we'll talk about, I'm sure in the future, that makes it easier to swap out the underlying data platform or swap in new ones for specialized use cases. Snowflake, what they're doing, they're so strong in data management and with their transactional tables, what they're trying to do is take in the operational data that used to be in the province of many state stores like MongoDB and say, "If you manage that data with us, it'll be connected to your analytic data without having to send it through a pipeline." And that's hugely valuable. Relational.ai is the wildcard, 'cause what they're trying to do, it's almost like a holy grail where you're trying to take the expressiveness of connecting all your data in a graph but making it as easy to query as you've always had it in a SQL database or I should say, in a relational database. And if they do that, it's sort of like, it'll be as easy to program these data apps as a spreadsheet was compared to procedural languages, like BASIC or Pascal. That's the implications of Relational.ai. >> Yeah, and again, we talked before, why can't you just throw this all in memory? We're talking in that example of really getting down to differences in how you lay the data out on disk in really, new database architecture, correct? >> Yes. And that's why it's not clear that you could take a data lake or even a Snowflake and why you can't put a relational knowledge graph on those. You could potentially put a graph database, but it'll be compromised because to really do what Relational.ai has done, which is the ease of Relational on top of the power of graph, you actually need to change how you're storing your data on disk or even in memory. So you can't, in other words, it's not like, oh we can add graph support to Snowflake, 'cause if you did that, you'd have to change, or in your data lake, you'd have to change how the data is physically laid out. And then that would break all the tools that talk to that currently. >> What in your estimation, is the timeframe where this becomes critical for a Databricks and potentially Snowflake and others? I mentioned earlier midterm, are we talking three to five years here? Are we talking end of decade? What's your radar say? >> I think something surprising is going on that's going to sort of come up the tailpipe and take everyone by storm. All the hype around business intelligence metrics, which is what we used to put in our dashboards where bookings, billings, revenue, customer, those things, those were the key artifacts that used to live in definitions in your BI tools, and DBT has basically created a standard for defining those so they live in your data pipeline or they're defined in their data pipeline and executed in the data warehouse or data lake in a shared way, so that all tools can use them. This sounds like a digression, it's not. All this stuff about data mesh, data fabric, all that's going on is we need a semantic layer and the business intelligence metrics are defining common semantics for your data. And I think we're going to find by the end of this year, that metrics are how we annotate all our analytic data to start adding common semantics to it. And we're going to find this semantic layer, it's not three to five years off, it's going to be staring us in the face by the end of this year. >> Interesting. And of course SVB today was shut down. We're seeing serious tech headwinds, and oftentimes in these sort of downturns or flat turns, which feels like this could be going on for a while, we emerge with a lot of new players and a lot of new technology. George, we got to leave it there. Thank you to George Gilbert for excellent insights and input for today's episode. I want to thank Alex Myerson who's on production and manages the podcast, of course Ken Schiffman as well. Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our EIC over at Siliconangle.com, he does some great editing. Remember all these episodes, they're available as podcasts. Wherever you listen, all you got to do is search Breaking Analysis Podcast, we publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com, or you can email me at David.Vellante@siliconangle.com, or DM me @DVellante. Comment on our LinkedIn post, and please do check out ETR.ai, great survey data, enterprise tech focus, phenomenal. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis.

(gentle upbeat music) >> Hello, everyone, welcome to theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier host here in Palo Alto, California. theCUBE's second year covering International Women's Day. It's been a great celebration of all the smart leaders in the world who are making a difference from all kinds of backgrounds, from technology to business and everything in between. Today we've got a great guest, Dominique Bastos, who's the senior Vice President of Cloud at Persistent Systems, formerly with AWS. That's where we first met at re:Invent. Dominique, great to have you on the program here for International Women's Day. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you John, for having me back on theCUBE. This is an honor, especially given the theme. >> Well, I'm excited to have you on, I consider you one of those typecast personas where you've kind of done a lot of things. You're powerful, you've got great business acumen you're technical, and we're in a world where, you know the world's coming completely digital and 50% of the world is women, 51%, some say. So you got mostly male dominated industry and you have a dual engineering background and that's super impressive as well. Again, technical world, male dominated you're in there in the mix. What inspires you to get these engineering degrees? >> I think even it was more so shifted towards males. When I had the inspiration to go to engineering school I was accused as a young girl of being a tomboy and fiddling around with all my brother's toys versus focusing on my dolls and other kind of stereotypical toys that you would give a girl. I really had a curiosity for building, a curiosity for just breaking things apart and putting them back together. I was very lucky in that my I guess you call it primary school, maybe middle school, had a program for, it was like electronics, that was the class electronics. So building circuit boards and things like that. And I really enjoyed that aspect of building. I think it was more actually going into engineering school. Picking that as a discipline was a little bit, my mom's reaction to when I announced that I wanted to do engineering which was, "No, that's for boys." >> Really. >> And that really, you know, I think she, it came from a good place in trying to protect me from what she has experienced herself in terms of how women are received in those spaces. So I kind of shrugged it off and thought "Okay, well I'm definitely now going to do this." >> (laughs) If I was told not to, you're going to do it. >> I was told not to, that's all I needed to hear. And also, I think my passion was to design cars and I figured if I enroll in an industrial engineering program I could focus on ergonomic design and ultimately, you know have a career doing something that I'm passionate about. So yeah, so my inspiration was kind of a little bit of don't do this, a lot of curiosity. I'm also a very analytical person. I've been, and I don't know what the science is around left right brain to be honest, but been told that I'm a very much a logical person versus a feeler. So I don't know if that's good or bad. >> Straight shooter. What were your engineering degrees if you don't mind sharing? >> So I did industrial engineering and so I did a dual degree, industrial engineering and robotics. At the time it was like a manufacturing robotics program. It was very, very cool because we got to, I mean now looking back, the evolution of robotics is just insane. But you, you know, programmed a robotic arm to pick things up. I actually crashed the Civil Engineering School's Concrete Canoe Building Competition where you literally have to design a concrete canoe and do all the load testing and the strength testing of the materials and basically then, you know you go against other universities to race the canoe in a body of water. We did that at, in Alabama and in Georgia. So I was lucky to experience that two times. It was a lot of fun. >> But you knew, so you knew, deep down, you were technical you had a nerd vibe you were geeking out on math, tech, robotics. What happened next? I mean, what were some of the challenges you faced? How did you progress forward? Did you have any blockers and roadblocks in front of you and how did you handle those? >> Yeah, I mean I had, I had a very eye-opening experience with, in my freshman year of engineering school. I kind of went in gung-ho with zero hesitation, all the confidence in the world, 'cause I was always a very big nerd academically, I hate admitting this but myself and somebody else got most intellectual, voted by the students in high school. It's like, you don't want to be voted most intellectual when you're in high school. >> Now it's a big deal. (laughs) >> Yeah, you want to be voted like popular or anything like that? No, I was a nerd, but in engineering school, it's a, it was very humbling. That whole confidence that I had. I experienced prof, ooh, I don't want to name the school. Everybody can google it though, but, so anyway so I had experience with some professors that actually looked at me and said, "You're in the wrong program. This is difficult." I, and I think I've shared this before in other forums where, you know, my thermodynamic teacher basically told me "Cheerleading's down the hall," and it it was a very shocking thing to hear because it really made me wonder like, what am I up against here? Is this what it's going to be like going forward? And I decided not to pay attention to that. I think at the moment when you hear something like that you just, you absorb it and you also don't know how to react. And I decided immediately to just walk right past him and sit down front center in the class. In my head I was cursing him, of course, 'cause I mean, let's be real. And I was like, I'm going to show this bleep bleep. And proceeded to basically set the curve class crushed it and was back to be the teacher's assistant. So I think that was one. >> But you became his teacher assistant after, or another one? >> Yeah, I gave him a mini speech. I said, do not do this. You, you could, you could have broken me and if you would've done this to somebody who wasn't as steadfast in her goals or whatever, I was really focused like I'm doing this, I would've backed out potentially and said, you know this isn't something I want to experience on the daily. So I think that was actually a good experience because it gave me an opportunity to understand what I was up against but also double down in how I was going to deal with it. >> Nice to slay the misogynistic teachers who typecast people. Now you had a very technical career but also you had a great career at AWS on the business side you've handled 'em all of the big accounts, I won't say the names, but like we're talking about monster accounts, sales and now basically it's not really selling, you're managing a big account, it's like a big business. It's a business development thing. Technical to business transition, how do you handle that? Was that something you were natural for? Obviously you, you stared down the naysayers out of the gate in college and then in business, did that continue and how did you drive through that? >> So I think even when I was coming out of university I knew that I wanted to have a balance between the engineering program and business. A lot of my colleagues went on to do their PEs so continue to get their masters basically in engineering or their PhDs in engineering. I didn't really have an interest for that. I did international business and finance as my MBA because I wanted to explore the ability of taking what I had learned in engineering school and applying it to building businesses. I mean, at the time I didn't have it in my head that I would want to do startups but I definitely knew that I wanted to get a feel for what are they learning in business school that I missed out in engineering school. So I think that helped me when I transitioned, well when I applied, I was asked to come apply at AWS and I kind of went, no I'm going to, the DNA is going to be rejected. >> You thought, you thought you'd be rejected from AWS. >> I thought I'd be, yeah, because I have very much a startup founder kind of disruptive personality. And to me, when I first saw AWS at the stage early 2016 I saw it as a corporation. Even though from a techie standpoint, I was like, these people are insane. This is amazing what they're building. But I didn't know what the cultural vibe would feel like. I had been with GE at the beginning of my career for almost three years. So I kind of equated AWS Amazon to GE given the size because in between, I had done startups. So when I went to AWS I think initially, and I do have to kind of shout out, you know Todd Weatherby basically was the worldwide leader for ProServe and it was being built, he built it and I went into ProServe to help from that standpoint. >> John: ProServe, Professional services >> Professional services, right. To help these big enterprise customers. And specifically my first customer was an amazing experience in taking, basically the company revolves around strategic selling, right? It's not like you take a salesperson with a conventional schooling that salespeople would have and plug them into AWS in 2016. It was very much a consultative strategic approach. And for me, having a technical background and loving to solve problems for customers, working with the team, I would say, it was a dream team that I joined. And also the ability to come to the table with a technical background, knowing how to interact with senior executives to help them envision where they want to go, and then to bring a team along with you to make that happen. I mean, that was like magical for me. I loved that experience. >> So you like the culture, I mean, Andy Jassy, I've interviewed many times, always talked about builders and been a builder mentality. You mentioned that earlier at the top of this interview you've always building things, curious and you mentioned potentially your confidence might have been shaken. So you, you had the confidence. So being a builder, you know, being curious and having confidence seems to be what your superpower is. A lot of people talk about the confidence angle. How important is that and how important is that for encouraging more women to get into tech? Because I still hear that all the time. Not that they don't have confidence, but there's so many signals that potentially could shake confidence in industry >> Yeah, that's actually a really good point that you're making. A lot of signals that women get could shake their confidence and that needs to be, I mean, it's easy to say that it should be innate. I mean that's kind of like textbook, "Oh it has to come from within." Of course it does. But also, you know, we need to understand that in a population where 50% of the population is women but only 7% of the positions in tech, and I don't know the most current number in tech leadership, is women, and probably a smaller percentage in the C-suite. When you're looking at a woman who's wanting to go up the trajectory in a tech company and then there's a subconscious understanding that there's a limit to how far you'll go, your confidence, you know, in even subconsciously gets shaken a little bit because despite your best efforts, you're already seeing the cap. I would say that we need to coach girls to speak confidently to navigate conflict versus running away from it, to own your own success and be secure in what you bring to the table. And then I think a very important thing is to celebrate each other and the wins that we see for women in tech, in the industry. >> That's awesome. What's, the, in your opinion, the, you look at that, the challenges for this next generation women, and women in general, what are some of the challenges for them and that they need to overcome today? I mean, obviously the world's changed for the better. Still not there. I mean the numbers one in four women, Rachel Thornton came on, former CMO of AWS, she's at MessageBird now. They had a study where only one in four women go to the executive board level. And so there's still, still numbers are bad and then the numbers still got to get up, up big time. That's, and the industry's working on that, but it's changed. But today, what are some of the challenges for this current generation and the next generation of women and how can we and the industry meet, we being us, women in the industry, be strong role models for them? >> Well, I think the challenge is one of how many women are there in the pipeline and what are we doing to retain them and how are we offering up the opportunities to fill. As you know, as Rachel said and I haven't had an opportunity to see her, in how are we giving them this opportunity to take up those seats in the C-suite right, in these leadership roles. And I think this is a little bit exacerbated with the pandemic in that, you know when everything shut down when people were going back to deal with family and work at the same time, for better or for worse the brunt of it fell on probably, you know the maternal type caregiver within the family unit. You know, I've been, I raised my daughter alone and for me, even without the pandemic it was a struggle constantly to balance the risk that I was willing to take to show up for those positions versus investing even more of that time raising a child, right? Nevermind the unconscious bias or cultural kind of expectations that you get from the male counterparts where there's zero understanding of what a mom might go through at home to then show up to a meeting, you know fully fresh and ready to kind of spit out some wisdom. It's like, you know, your kid just freaking lost their whatever and you know, they, so you have to sort a bunch of things out. I think the challenge that women are still facing and will we have to keep working at it is making sure that there's a good pipeline. A good amount of young ladies of people taking interest in tech. And then as they're, you know, going through the funnel at stages in their career, we're providing the mentoring we're, there's representation, right? To what they're aspiring to. We're celebrating their interest in the field, right? And, and I think also we're doing things to retain them, because again, the pandemic affected everybody. I think women specifically and I don't know the statistics but I was reading something about this were the ones to tend to kind of pull it back and say well now I need to be home with, you know you name how many kids and pets and the aging parents, people that got sick to take on that position. In addition to the career aspirations that they might have. We need to make it easier basically. >> I think that's a great call out and I appreciate you bringing that up about family and being a single mom. And by the way, you're savage warrior to doing that. It's amazing. You got to, I know you have a daughter in computer science at Stanford, I want to get to that in a second. But that empathy and I mentioned Rachel Thornton, who's the CMO MessageBird and former CMO of AWS. Her thing right now to your point is mentoring and sponsorship is very key. And her company and the video that's on the site here people should look at that and reference that. They talk a lot about that empathy of people's situation whether it's a single mom, family life, men and women but mainly women because they're the ones who people aren't having a lot of empathy for in that situation, as you called it out. This is huge. And I think remote work has opened up this whole aperture of everyone has to have a view into how people are coming to the table at work. So, you know, props are bringing that up, and I recommend everyone look at check out Rachel Thornton. So how do you balance that, that home life and talk about your daughter's journey because sounds like she's nerding out at Stanford 'cause you know Stanford's called Nerd Nation, that's their motto, so you must be proud. >> I am so proud, I'm so proud. And I will say, I have to admit, because I did encounter so many obstacles and so many hurdles in my journey, it's almost like I forgot that I should set that aside and not worry about my daughter. My hope for her was for her to kind of be artistic and a painter or go into something more lighthearted and fun because I just wanted to think, I guess my mom had the same idea, right? She, always been very driven. She, I want to say that I got very lucky that she picked me to be her mom. Biologically I'm her mom, but I told her she was like a little star that fell from the sky and I, and ended up with me. I think for me, balancing being a single mom and a career where I'm leading and mentoring and making big decisions that affect people's lives as well. You have to take the best of everything you get from each of those roles. And I think that the best way is play to your strengths, right? So having been kind of a nerd and very organized person and all about, you know, systems for effectiveness, I mean, industrial engineering, parenting for me was, I'm going to make it sound super annoying and horrible, but (laughs) >> It's funny, you know, Dave Vellante and I when we started SiliconANGLE and theCUBE years ago, one of the things we were all like sports lovers. So we liked sports and we are like we looked at the people in tech as tech athletes and except there's no men and women teams, it's one team. It's all one thing. So, you know, I consider you a tech athlete you're hard charging strong and professional and smart and beautiful and brilliant, all those good things. >> Thank you. >> Now this game is changing and okay, and you've done startups, and you've done corporate jobs, now you're in a new role. What's the current tech landscape from a, you know I won't say athletic per standpoint but as people who are smart. You have all kinds of different skill sets. You have the startup warriors, you have the folks who like to be in the middle of the corporate world grow up through corporate, climb the corporate ladder. You have investors, you have, you know, creatives. What have you enjoyed most and where do you see all the action? >> I mean, I think what I've enjoyed the most has been being able to bring all of the things that I feel I'm strong at and bring it together to apply that to whatever the problem is at hand, right? So kind of like, you know if you look at a renaissance man who can kind of pop in anywhere and, oh, he's good at, you know sports and he's good at reading and, or she's good at this or, take all of those strengths and somehow bring them together to deal with the issue at hand, versus breaking up your mindset into this is textbook what I learned and this is how business should be done and I'm going to draw these hard lines between personal life and work life, or between how you do selling and how you do engineering. So I think my, the thing that I loved, really loved about AWS was a lot of leaders saw something in me that I potentially didn't see, which was, yeah you might be great at running that big account but we need help over here doing go to market for a new product launch and boom, there you go. Now I'm in a different org helping solve that problem and getting something launched. And I think if you don't box yourself in to I'm only good at this, or, you know put a label on yourself as being the rockstar in that. It leaves room for opportunities to present themselves but also it leaves room within your own mind to see yourself as somebody capable of doing anything. Right, I don't know if I answered the question accurately. >> No, that's good, no, that's awesome. I love the sharing, Yeah, great, great share there. Question is, what do you see, what do you currently during now you're building a business of Persistent for the cloud, obviously AWS and Persistent's a leader global system integrator around the world, thousands and thousands of customers from what we know and been reporting on theCUBE, what's next for you? Where do you see yourself going? Obviously you're going to knock this out of the park. Where do you see yourself as you kind of look at the continuing journey of your mission, personal, professional what's on your mind? Where do you see yourself going next? >> Well, I think, you know, again, going back to not boxing yourself in. This role is an amazing one where I have an opportunity to take all the pieces of my career in tech and apply them to building a business within a business. And that involves all the goodness of coaching and mentoring and strategizing. And I'm loving it. I'm loving the opportunity to work with such great leaders. Persistent itself is very, very good at providing opportunities, very diverse opportunities. We just had a huge Semicolon; Hackathon. Some of the winners were females. The turnout was amazing in the CTO's office. We have very strong women leading the charge for innovation. I think to answer your question about the future and where I may see myself going next, I think now that my job, well they say the job is never done. But now that Chloe's kind of settled into Stanford and kind of doing her own thing, I have always had a passion to continue leading in a way that brings me to, into the fold a lot more. So maybe, you know, maybe in a VC firm partner mode or another, you know CEO role in a startup, or my own startup. I mean, I never, I don't know right now I'm super happy but you never know, you know where your drive might go. And I also want to be able to very deliberately be in a role where I can continue to mentor and support up and coming women in tech. >> Well, you got the smarts but you got really the building mentality, the curiosity and the confidence really sets you up nicely. Dominique great story, great inspiration. You're a role model for many women, young girls out there and women in tech and in celebration. It's a great day and thank you for sharing that story and all the good nuggets there. Appreciate you coming on theCUBE, and it's been my pleasure. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you, John. Thank you so much for having me. >> Okay, theCUBE's coverage of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here in Palo Alto getting all the content, check out the other interviews some amazing stories, lessons learned, and some, you know some funny stories and some serious stories. So have some fun and enjoy the rest of the videos here for International Women's Days, thanks for watching. (gentle inspirational music)

(energetic music) >> Everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of WiDS 2023. This is the eighth annual Women in Data Science Conference. As you know, WiDS is not just a conference or an event, it's a movement. This is going to include over 100,000 people in the next year WiDS 2023 in 200-plus countries. It is such a powerful movement. If you've had a chance to be part of the Livestream or even be here in person with us at Stanford University, you know what I'm talking about. This is Lisa Martin. I have had the pleasure all day of working with two fantastic graduate students in Stanford's Data Journalism Master's Program. Hannah Freitag has been here. Tracy Zhang, ladies, it's been such a pleasure working with you today. >> Same wise. >> I want to ask you both what are, as we wrap the day, I'm so inspired, I feel like I could go build an airplane. >> Exactly. >> Probably can't. But WiDS is just the inspiration that comes from this event. When you walk in the front door, you can feel it. >> Mm-hmm. >> Tracy, talk a little bit about what some of the things are that you heard today that really inspired you. >> I think one of the keyword that's like in my mind right now is like finding a mentor. >> Yeah. >> And I think, like if I leave this conference if I leave the talks, the conversations with one thing is that I'm very positive that if I want to switch, say someday, from Journalism to being a Data Analyst, to being like in Data Science, I'm sure that there are great role models for me to look up to, and I'm sure there are like mentors who can guide me through the way. So, like that, I feel reassured for some reason. >> It's a good feeling, isn't it? What do you, Hannah, what about you? What's your takeaway so far of the day? >> Yeah, one of my key takeaways is that anything's possible. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, if you have your vision, you have the role model, someone you look up to, and even if you have like a different background, not in Data Science, Data Engineering, or Computer Science but you're like, "Wow, this is really inspiring. I would love to do that." As long as you love it, you're passionate about it, and you are willing to, you know, take this path even though it won't be easy. >> Yeah. >> Then you can achieve it, and as you said, Tracy, it's important to have mentors on the way there. >> Exactly. >> But as long as you speak up, you know, you raise your voice, you ask questions, and you're curious, you can make it. >> Yeah. >> And I think that's one of my key takeaways, and I was just so inspiring to hear like all these women speaking on stage, and also here in our conversations and learning about their, you know, career path and what they learned on their way. >> Yeah, you bring up curiosity, and I think that is such an important skill. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know, you could think of Data Science and think about all the hard skills that you need. >> Mm, like coding. >> But as some of our guests said today, you don't have to be a statistician or an engineer, or a developer to get into this. Data Science applies to every facet of every part of the world. >> Mm-hmm. >> Finances, marketing, retail, manufacturing, healthcare, you name it, Data Science has the power and the potential to unlock massive achievements. >> Exactly. >> It's like we're scratching the surface. >> Yeah. >> But that curiosity, I think, is a great skill to bring to anything that you do. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think we... For the female leaders that we're on stage, and that we had a chance to talk to on theCUBE today, I think they all probably had that I think as a common denominator. >> Exactly. >> That curious mindset, and also something that I think as hard is the courage to raise your hand. I like this, I'm interested in this. I don't see anybody that looks like me. >> But that doesn't mean I shouldn't do it. >> Exactly. >> Exactly, in addition to the curiosity that all the women, you know, bring to the table is that, in addition to that, being optimistic, and even though we don't see gender equality or like general equality in companies yet, we make progress and we're optimistic about it, and we're not like negative and complaining the whole time. But you know, this positive attitude towards a trend that is going in the right direction, and even though there's still a lot to be done- >> Exactly. >> We're moving it that way. >> Right. >> Being optimistic about this. >> Yeah, exactly, like even if it means that it's hard. Even if it means you need to be your own role model it's still like worth a try. And I think they, like all of the great women speakers, all the female leaders, they all have that in them, like they have the courage to like raise their hand and be like, "I want to do this, and I'm going to make it." And they're role models right now, so- >> Absolutely, they have drive. >> They do. >> Right. They have that ambition to take something that's challenging and complicated, and help abstract end users from that. Like we were talking to Intuit. I use Intuit in my small business for financial management, and she was talking about how they can from a machine learning standpoint, pull all this data off of documents that you upload and make that, abstract that, all that complexity from the end user, make something that's painful taxes. >> Mm-hmm. >> Maybe slightly less painful. It's still painful when you have to go, "Do I have to write you a check again?" >> Yeah. (laughs) >> Okay. >> But talking about just all the different applications of Data Science in the world, I found that to be very inspiring and really eye-opening. >> Definitely. >> I hadn't thought about, you know, we talk about climate change all the time, especially here in California, but I never thought about Data Science as a facilitator of the experts being able to make sense of what's going on historically and in real-time, or the application of Data Science in police violence. We see far too many cases of police violence on the news. It's an epidemic that's a horrible problem. Data Science can be applied to that to help us learn from that, and hopefully, start moving the needle in the right direction. >> Absolutely. >> Exactly. >> And especially like one sentence from Guitry from the very beginnings I still have in my mind is then when she said that arguments, no, that data beats arguments. >> Yes. >> In a conversation that if you be like, okay, I have this data set and it can actually show you this or that, it's much more powerful than just like being, okay, this is my position or opinion on this. And I think in a world where increasing like misinformation, and sometimes, censorship as we heard in one of the talks, it's so important to have like data, reliable data, but also acknowledge, and we talked about it with one of our interviewees that there's spices in data and we also need to be aware of this, and how to, you know, move this forward and use Data Science for social good. >> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah, for social good. >> Yeah, definitely, I think they like data, and the question about, or like the problem-solving part about like the social issues, or like some just questions, they definitely go hand-in-hand. Like either of them standing alone won't be anything that's going to be having an impact, but combining them together, you have a data set that illustrate a point or like solves the problem. I think, yeah, that's definitely like where Data Set Science is headed to, and I'm glad to see all these great women like making their impact and combining those two aspects together. >> It was interesting in the keynote this morning. We were all there when Margot Gerritsen who's one of the founders of WiDS, and Margot's been on the program before and she's a huge supporter of what we do and vice versa. She asked the non-women in the room, "Those who don't identify as women, stand up," and there was a handful of men, and she said, "That's what it's like to be a female in technology." >> Oh, my God. >> And I thought that vision give me goosebumps. >> Powerful. (laughs) >> Very powerful. But she's right, and one of the things I think that thematically another common denominator that I think we heard, I want to get your opinions as well from our conversations today, is the importance of community. >> Mm-hmm. >> You know, I was mentioning this stuff from AnitaB.org that showed that in 2022, the percentage of females and technical roles is 27.6%. It's a little bit of an increase. It's been hovering around 25% for a while. But one of the things that's still a problem is attrition. It doubled last year. >> Right. >> And I was asking some of the guests, and we've all done that today, "How would you advise companies to start moving the needle down on attrition?" >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think the common theme was network, community. >> Exactly. >> It takes a village like this. >> Mm-hmm. >> So you can see what you can be to help start moving that needle and that's, I think, what underscores the value of what WiDS delivers, and what we're able to showcase on theCUBE. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I think it's very important to like if you're like a woman in tech to be able to know that there's someone for you, that there's a whole community you can rely on, and that like you are, you have the same mindset, you're working towards the same goal. And it's just reassuring and like it feels very nice and warm to have all these women for you. >> Lisa: It's definitely a warm fuzzy, isn't it? >> Yeah, and both the community within the workplace but also outside, like a network of family and friends who support you to- >> Yes. >> To pursue your career goals. I think that was also a common theme we heard that it's, yeah, necessary to both have, you know your community within your company or organization you're working but also outside. >> Definitely, I think that's also like how, why, the reason why we feel like this in like at WiDS, like I think we all feel very positive right now. So, yeah, I think that's like the power of the connection and the community, yeah. >> And the nice thing is this is like I said, WiDS is a movement. >> Yes. >> This is global. >> Mm-hmm. >> We've had some WiDS ambassadors on the program who started WiDS and Tel Aviv, for example, in their small communities. Or in Singapore and Mumbai that are bringing it here and becoming more of a visible part of the community. >> Tracy: Right. >> I loved seeing all the young faces when we walked in the keynote this morning. You know, we come here from a journalistic perspective. You guys are Journalism students. But seeing all the potential in the faces in that room just seeing, and hearing stories, and starting to make tangible connections between Facebook and data, and the end user and the perspectives, and the privacy and the responsibility of AI is all... They're all positive messages that need to be reinforced, and we need to have more platforms like this to be able to not just raise awareness, but sustain it. >> Exactly. >> Right. It's about the long-term, it's about how do we dial down that attrition, what can we do? What can we do? How can we help? >> Mm-hmm. >> Both awareness, but also giving women like a place where they can connect, you know, also outside of conferences. Okay, how do we make this like a long-term thing? So, I think WiDS is a great way to, you know, encourage this connectivity and these women teaming up. >> Yeah, (chuckles) girls help girls. >> Yeah. (laughs) >> It's true. There's a lot of organizations out there, girls who Code, Girls Inc., et cetera, that are all aimed at helping women kind of find their, I think, find their voice. >> Exactly. >> And find that curiosity. >> Yeah. Unlock that somewhere back there. Get some courage- >> Mm-hmm. >> To raise your hand and say, "I think I want to do this," or "I have a question. You explained something and I didn't understand it." Like, that's the advice I would always give to my younger self is never be afraid to raise your hand in a meeting. >> Mm-hmm. >> I guarantee you half the people weren't listening or, and the other half may not have understood what was being talked about. >> Exactly. >> So, raise your hand, there goes Margot Gerritsen, the founder of WiDS, hey, Margot. >> Hi. >> Keep alumni as you know, raise your hand, ask the question, there's no question that's stupid. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I promise you, if you just take that chance once it will open up so many doors, you won't even know which door to go in because there's so many that are opening. >> And if you have a question, there's at least one more person in the room who has the exact same question. >> Exact same question. >> Yeah, we'll definitely keep that in mind as students- >> Well, I'm curious how Data Journalism, what you heard today, Tracy, we'll start with you, and then, Hannah, to you. >> Mm-hmm. How has it influenced how you approach data-driven, and storytelling? Has it inspired you? I imagine it has, or has it given you any new ideas for, as you round out your Master's Program in the next few months? >> I think like one keyword that I found really helpful from like all the conversations today, was problem-solving. >> Yeah. >> Because I think, like we talked a lot about in our program about how to put a face on data sets. How to put a face, put a name on a story that's like coming from like big data, a lot of numbers but you need to like narrow it down to like one person or one anecdote that represents a bigger problem. And I think essentially that's problem-solving. That's like there is a community, there is like say maybe even just one person who has, well, some problem about something, and then we're using data. We're, by giving them a voice, by portraying them in news and like representing them in the media, we're solving this problem somehow. We're at least trying to solve this problem, trying to make some impact. And I think that's like what Data Science is about, is problem-solving, and, yeah, I think I heard a lot from today's conversation, also today's speakers. So, yeah, I think that's like something we should also think about as Journalists when we do pitches or like what kind of problem are we solving? >> I love that. >> Or like kind of what community are we trying to make an impact in? >> Yes. >> Absolutely. Yeah, I think one of the main learnings for me that I want to apply like to my career in Data Journalism is that I don't shy away from complexity because like Data Science is oftentimes very complex. >> Complex. >> And also data, you're using for your stories is complex. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, how can we, on the one hand, reduce complexity in a way that we make it accessible for broader audience? 'Cause, we don't want to be this like tech bubble talking in data jargon, we want to, you know, make it accessible for a broader audience. >> Yeah. >> I think that's like my purpose as a Data Journalist. But at the same time, don't reduce complexity when it's needed, you know, and be open to dive into new topics, and data sets and circling back to this of like raising your hand and asking questions if you don't understand like a certain part. >> Yeah. >> So, that's definitely a main learning from this conference. >> Definitely. >> That like, people are willing to talk to you and explain complex topics, and this will definitely facilitate your work as a Data Journalist. >> Mm-hmm. >> So, that inspired me. >> Well, I can't wait to see where you guys go from here. I've loved co-hosting with you today, thank you. >> Thank you. >> For joining me at our conference. >> Wasn't it fun? >> Thank you. >> It's a great event. It's, we, I think we've all been very inspired and I'm going to leave here probably floating above the ground a few inches, high on the inspiration of what this community can deliver, isn't that great? >> It feels great, I don't know, I just feel great. >> Me too. (laughs) >> So much good energy, positive energy, we love it. >> Yeah, so we want to thank all the organizers of WiDS, Judy Logan, Margot Gerritsen in particular. We also want to thank John Furrier who is here. And if you know Johnny, know he gets FOMO when he is not hosting. But John and Dave Vellante are such great supporters of women in technology, women in technical roles. We wouldn't be here without them. So, shout out to my bosses. Thank you for giving me the keys to theCube at this event. I know it's painful sometimes, but we hope that we brought you great stories all day. We hope we inspired you with the females and the one male that we had on the program today in terms of raise your hand, ask a question, be curious, don't be afraid to pursue what you're interested in. That's my soapbox moment for now. So, for my co-host, I'm Lisa Martin, we want to thank you so much for watching our program today. You can watch all of this on-demand on thecube.net. You'll find write-ups on siliconeangle.com, and, of course, YouTube. Thanks, everyone, stay safe and we'll see you next time. (energetic music)

(ambient music) >> Good morning, everyone. Lisa Martin with theCUBE, live at the eighth Annual Women in Data Science Conference. This is one of my absolute favorite events of the year. We engage with tons of great inspirational speakers, men and women, and what's happening with WiDS is a global movement. I've got two fabulous co-hosts with me today that you're going to be hearing and meeting. Please welcome Tracy Zhang and Hannah Freitag, who are both from the sata journalism program, master's program, at Stanford. So great to have you guys. >> So excited to be here. >> So data journalism's so interesting. Tracy, tell us a little bit about you, what you're interested in, and then Hannah we'll have you do the same thing. >> Yeah >> Yeah, definitely. I definitely think data journalism is very interesting, and in fact, I think, what is data journalism? Is definitely one of the big questions that we ask during the span of one year, which is the length of our program. And yeah, like you said, I'm in this data journalism master program, and I think coming in I just wanted to pivot from my undergrad studies, which is more like a traditional journalism, into data. We're finding stories through data, so that's why I'm also very excited about meeting these speakers for today because they're all, they have different backgrounds, but they all ended up in data science. So I think they'll be very inspirational and I can't wait to talk to them. >> Data in stories, I love that. Hannah, tell us a little bit about you. >> Yeah, so before coming to Stanford, I was a research assistant at Humboldt University in Berlin, so I was in political science research. And I love to work with data sets and data, but I figured that, for me, I don't want this story to end up in a research paper, which is only very limited in terms of the audience. And I figured, okay, data journalism is the perfect way to tell stories and use data to illustrate anecdotes, but to make it comprehensive and accessible for a broader audience. So then I found this program at Stanford and I was like, okay, that's the perfect transition from political science to journalism, and to use data to tell data-driven stories. So I'm excited to be in this program, I'm excited for the conference today and to hear from these amazing women who work in data science. >> You both brought up great points, and we were chatting earlier that there's a lot of diversity in background. >> Tracy: Definitely. >> Not everyone was in STEM as a young kid or studied computer science. Maybe some are engineering, maybe some are are philosophy or economic, it's so interesting. And what I find year after year at WiDS is it brings in so much thought diversity. And that's what being data-driven really demands. It demands that unbiased approach, that diverse, a spectrum of diverse perspectives, and we definitely get that at WiDS. There's about 350 people in person here, but as I mentioned in the opening, hundreds of thousands will engage throughout the year, tens of thousands probably today at local events going on across the globe. And it just underscores the importance of every organization, whether it's a bank or a grocer, has to be data-driven. We have that expectation as consumers in our consumer lives, and even in our business lives, that I'm going to engage with a business, whatever it is, and they're going to know about me, they're going to deliver me a personalized experience that's relevant to me and my history. And all that is powered by data science, which is I think it's fascinating. >> Yeah, and the great way is if you combine data with people. Because after all, large data sets, they oftentimes consist of stories or data that affects people. And to find these stories or advanced research in whatever fields, maybe in the financial business, or in health, as you mentioned, the variety of fields, it's very powerful, powerful tool to use. >> It's a very power, oh, go ahead Tracy. >> No, definitely. I just wanted to build off of that. It's important to put a face on data. So a dataset without a name is just some numbers, but if there's a story, then I think it means something too. And I think Margot was talking about how data science is about knowing or understanding the past, I think that's very interesting. That's a method for us to know who we are. >> Definitely. There's so many opportunities. I wanted to share some of the statistics from AnitaB.org that I was just looking at from 2022. We always talk at events like WiDS, and some of the other women in tech things, theCUBE is very much pro-women in tech, and has been for a very long, since the beginning of theCUBE. But we've seen the numbers of women technologists historically well below 25%, and we see attrition rates are high. And so we often talk about, well, what can we do? And part of that is raising the awareness. And that's one of the great things about WiDS, especially WiDS happening on International Women's Day, today, March 8th, and around event- >> Tracy: A big holiday. >> Exactly. But one of the nice things I was looking at, the AnitaB.org research, is that representation of tech women is on the rise, still below pre-pandemic levels, but it's actually nearly 27% of women in technical roles. And that's an increase, slow increase, but the needle is moving. We're seeing much more gender diversity across a lot of career levels, which is exciting. But some of the challenges remain. I mean, the representation of women technologists is growing, except at the intern level. And I thought that was really poignant. We need to be opening up that pipeline and going younger. And you'll hear a lot of those conversations today about, what are we doing to reach girls in grade school, 10 year olds, 12 year olds, those in high school? How do we help foster them through their undergrad studies- >> And excite them about science and all these fields, for sure. >> What do you think, Hannah, on that note, and I'll ask you the same question, what do you think can be done? The theme of this year's International Women's Day is Embrace Equity. What do you think can be done on that intern problem to help really dial up the volume on getting those younger kids interested, one, earlier, and two, helping them stay interested? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's important to start early, as you said, in school. Back in the day when I went to high school, we had this one day per year where we could explore as girls, explore a STEM job and go into the job for one day and see how it's like to work in a, I dunno, in IT or in data science, so that's a great first step. But as you mentioned, it's important to keep girls and women excited about this field and make them actually pursue this path. So I think conferences or networking is very powerful. Also these days with social media and technology, we have more ability and greater ways to connect. And I think we should even empower ourselves even more to pursue this path if we're interested in data science, and not be like, okay, maybe it's not for me, or maybe as a woman I have less chances. So I think it's very important to connect with other women, and this is what WiDS is great about. >> WiDS is so fantastic for that network effect, as you talked about. It's always such, as I was telling you about before we went live, I've covered five or six WiDS for theCUBE, and it's always such a day of positivity, it's a day of of inclusivity, which is exactly what Embrace Equity is really kind of about. Tracy, talk a little bit about some of the things that you see that will help with that hashtag Embrace Equity kind of pulling it, not just to tech. Because we're talking and we saw Meta was a keynote who's going to come to talk with Hannah and me in a little bit, we see Total Energies on the program today, we see Microsoft, Intuit, Boeing Air Company. What are some of the things you think that can be done to help inspire, say, little Tracy back in the day to become interested in STEM or in technology or in data? What do you think companies can and should be doing to dial up the volume for those youngsters? >> Yeah, 'cause I think somebody was talking about, one of the keynote speakers was talking about how there is a notion that girls just can't be data scientists. girls just can't do science. And I think representation definitely matters. If three year old me see on TV that all the scientists are women, I think I would definitely have the notion that, oh, this might be a career choice for me and I can definitely also be a scientist if I want. So yeah, I think representation definitely matters and that's why conference like this will just show us how these women are great in their fields. They're great data scientists that are bringing great insight to the company and even to the social good as well. So yeah, I think that's very important just to make women feel seen in this data science field and to listen to the great woman who's doing amazing work. >> Absolutely. There's a saying, you can't be what you can't see. >> Exactly. >> And I like to say, I like to flip it on its head, 'cause we can talk about some of the negatives, but there's a lot of positives and I want to share some of those in a minute, is that we need to be, that visibility that you talked about, the awareness that you talked about, it needs to be there but it needs to be sustained and maintained. And an organization like WiDS and some of the other women in tech events that happen around the valley here and globally, are all aimed at raising the profile of these women so that the younger, really, all generations can see what they can be. We all, the funny thing is, we all have this expectation whether we're transacting on Uber ride or we are on Netflix or we're buying something on Amazon, we can get it like that. They're going to know who I am, they're going to know what I want, they're going to want to know what I just bought or what I just watched. Don't serve me up something that I've already done that. >> Hannah: Yeah. >> Tracy: Yeah. >> So that expectation that everyone has is all about data, though we don't necessarily think about it like that. >> Hannah: Exactly. >> Tracy: Exactly. >> But it's all about the data that, the past data, the data science, as well as the realtime data because we want to have these experiences that are fresh, in the moment, and super relevant. So whether women recognize it or not, they're data driven too. Whether or not you're in data science, we're all driven by data and we have these expectations that every business is going to meet it. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. And circling back to young women, I think it's crucial and important to have role models. As you said, if you see someone and you're younger and you're like, oh I want to be like her. I want to follow this path, and have inspiration and a role model, someone you look up to and be like, okay, this is possible if I study the math part or do the physics, and you kind of have a goal and a vision in mind, I think that's really important to drive you. >> Having those mentors and sponsors, something that's interesting is, I always, everyone knows what a mentor is, somebody that you look up to, that can guide you, that you admire. I didn't learn what a sponsor was until a Women in Tech event a few years ago that we did on theCUBE. And I was kind of, my eyes were open but I didn't understand the difference between a mentor and a sponsor. And then it got me thinking, who are my sponsors? And I started going through LinkedIn, oh, he's a sponsor, she's a sponsor, people that help really propel you forward, your recommenders, your champions, and it's so important at every level to build that network. And we have, to your point, Hannah, there's so much potential here for data drivenness across the globe, and there's so much potential for women. One of the things I also learned recently , and I wanted to share this with you 'cause I'm not sure if you know this, ChatGPT, exploding, I was on it yesterday looking at- >> Everyone talking about it. >> What's hot in data science? And it was kind of like, and I actually asked it, what was hot in data science in 2023? And it told me that it didn't know anything prior to 2021. >> Tracy: Yes. >> Hannah: Yeah. >> So I said, Oh, I'm so sorry. But everyone's talking about ChatGPT, it is the most advanced AI chatbot ever released to the masses, it's on fire. They're likening it to the launch of the iPhone, 100 million-plus users. But did you know that the CTO of ChatGPT is a woman? >> Tracy: I did not know, but I learned that. >> I learned that a couple days ago, Mira Murati, and of course- >> I love it. >> She's been, I saw this great profile piece on her on Fast Company, but of course everything that we're hearing about with respect to ChatGPT, a lot on the CEO. But I thought we need to help dial up the profile of the CTO because she's only 35, yet she is at the helm of one of the most groundbreaking things in our lifetime we'll probably ever see. Isn't that cool? >> That is, yeah, I completely had no idea. >> I didn't either. I saw it on LinkedIn over the weekend and I thought, I have to talk about that because it's so important when we talk about some of the trends, other trends from AnitaB.org, I talked about some of those positive trends. Overall hiring has rebounded in '22 compared to pre-pandemic levels. And we see also 51% more women being hired in '22 than '21. So the data, it's all about data, is showing us things are progressing quite slowly. But one of the biggest challenges that's still persistent is attrition. So we were talking about, Hannah, what would your advice be? How would you help a woman stay in tech? We saw that attrition last year in '22 according to AnitaB.org, more than doubled. So we're seeing women getting into the field and dropping out for various reasons. And so that's still an extent concern that we have. What do you think would motivate you to stick around if you were in a technical role? Same question for you in a minute. >> Right, you were talking about how we see an increase especially in the intern level for women. And I think if, I don't know, this is a great for a start point for pushing the momentum to start growth, pushing the needle rightwards. But I think if we can see more increase in the upper level, the women representation in the upper level too, maybe that's definitely a big goal and something we should work towards to. >> Lisa: Absolutely. >> But if there's more representation up in the CTO position, like in the managing level, I think that will definitely be a great factor to keep women in data science. >> I was looking at some trends, sorry, Hannah, forgetting what this source was, so forgive me, that was showing that there was a trend in the last few years, I think it was Fast Company, of more women in executive positions, specifically chief operating officer positions. What that hasn't translated to, what they thought it might translate to, is more women going from COO to CEO and we're not seeing that. We think of, if you ask, name a female executive that you'd recognize, everyone would probably say Sheryl Sandberg. But I was shocked to learn the other day at a Women in Tech event I was doing, that there was a survey done by this organization that showed that 78% of people couldn't identify. So to your point, we need more of them in that visible role, in the executive suite. >> Tracy: Exactly. >> And there's data that show that companies that have women, companies across industries that have women in leadership positions, executive positions I should say, are actually more profitable. So it's kind of like, duh, the data is there, it's telling you this. >> Hannah: Exactly. >> Right? >> And I think also a very important point is work culture and the work environment. And as a woman, maybe if you enter and you work two or three years, and then you have to oftentimes choose, okay, do I want family or do I want my job? And I think that's one of the major tasks that companies face to make it possible for women to combine being a mother and being a great data scientist or an executive or CEO. And I think there's still a lot to be done in this regard to make it possible for women to not have to choose for one thing or the other. And I think that's also a reason why we might see more women at the entry level, but not long-term. Because they are punished if they take a couple years off if they want to have kids. >> I think that's a question we need to ask to men too. >> Absolutely. >> How to balance work and life. 'Cause we never ask that. We just ask the woman. >> No, they just get it done, probably because there's a woman on the other end whose making it happen. >> Exactly. So yeah, another thing to think about, another thing to work towards too. >> Yeah, it's a good point you're raising that we have this conversation together and not exclusively only women, but we all have to come together and talk about how we can design companies in a way that it works for everyone. >> Yeah, and no slight to men at all. A lot of my mentors and sponsors are men. They're just people that I greatly admire who saw raw potential in me 15, 18 years ago, and just added a little water to this little weed and it started to grow. In fact, theCUBE- >> Tracy: And look at you now. >> Look at me now. And theCUBE, the guys Dave Vellante and John Furrier are two of those people that are sponsors of mine. But it needs to be diverse. It needs to be diverse and gender, it needs to include non-binary people, anybody, shouldn't matter. We should be able to collectively work together to solve big problems. Like the propaganda problem that was being discussed in the keynote this morning with respect to China, or climate change. Climate change is a huge challenge. Here, we are in California, we're getting an atmospheric river tomorrow. And Californians and rain, we're not so friendly. But we know that there's massive changes going on in the climate. Data science can help really unlock a lot of the challenges and solve some of the problems and help us understand better. So there's so much real-world implication potential that being data-driven can really lead to. And I love the fact that you guys are studying data journalism. You'll have to help me understand that even more. But we're going to going to have great conversations today, I'm so excited to be co-hosting with both of you. You're going to be inspired, you're going to learn, they're going to learn from us as well. So let's just kind of think of this as a community of men, women, everything in between to really help inspire the current generations, the future generations. And to your point, let's help women feel confident to be able to stay and raise their hand for fast-tracking their careers. >> Exactly. >> What are you guys, last minute, what are you looking forward to most for today? >> Just meeting these great women, I can't wait. >> Yeah, learning from each other. Having this conversation about how we can make data science even more equitable and hear from the great ideas that all these women have. >> Excellent, girls, we're going to have a great day. We're so glad that you're here with us on theCUBE, live at Stanford University, Women in Data Science, the eighth annual conference. I'm Lisa Martin, my two co-hosts for the day, Tracy Zhang, Hannah Freitag, you're going to be seeing a lot of us, we appreciate. Stick around, our first guest joins Hannah and me in just a minute. (ambient music)

(light music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's been here all week. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Don't forget to check out siliconangle.com, thecube.net. This is day four, our last segment, winding down. MWC23, super excited to be here. Wayne Duso, friend of theCUBE, VP of engineering from products at AWS is here with Iyad Tarazi, who's the CEO of Federated Wireless. Gents, welcome. >> Good to be here. >> Nice to see you. >> I'm so stoked, Wayne, that we connected before the show. We texted, I'm like, "You're going to be there. I'm going to be there. You got to come on theCUBE." So thank you so much for making time, and thank you for bringing a customer partner, Federated Wireless. Everybody knows AWS. Iyad, tell us about Federated Wireless. >> We're a software and services company out of Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC, and we're really focused on this new technology called Shared Spectrum and private wireless for 5G. Think of it as enterprises consuming 5G, the way they used to consume WiFi. >> Is that unrestricted spectrum, or? >> It is managed, organized, interference free, all through cloud platforms. That's how we got to know AWS. We went and got maybe about 300 products from AWS to make it work. Quite sophisticated, highly available, and pristine spectrum worth billions of dollars, but available for people like you and I, that want to build enterprises, that want to make things work. Also carriers, cable companies everybody else that needs it. It's really a new revolution for everyone. >> And that's how you, it got introduced to AWS. Was that through public sector, or just the coincidence that you're in DC >> No, I, well, yes. The center of gravity in the world for spectrum is literally Arlington. You have the DOD spectrum people, you have spectrum people from National Science Foundation, DARPA, and then you have commercial sector, and you have the FCC just an Uber ride away. So we went and found the scientists that are doing all this work, four or five of them, Virginia Tech has an office there too, for spectrum research for the Navy. Come together, let's have a party and make a new model. >> So I asked this, I'm super excited to have you on theCUBE. I sat through the keynotes on Monday. I saw Satya Nadella was in there, Thomas Kurian there was no AWS. I'm like, where's AWS? AWS is everywhere. I mean, you guys are all over the show. I'm like, "Hey, where's the number one cloud?" So you guys have made a bunch of announcements at the show. Everybody's talking about the cloud. What's going on for you guys? >> So we are everywhere, and you know, we've been coming to this show for years. But this is really a year that we can demonstrate that what we've been doing for the IT enterprise, IT people for 17 years, we're now bringing for telcos, you know? For years, we've been, 17 years to be exact, we've been bringing the cloud value proposition, whether it's, you know, cost efficiencies or innovation or scale, reliability, security and so on, to these enterprise IT folks. Now we're doing the same thing for telcos. And so whether they want to build in region, in a local zone, metro area, on-prem with an outpost, at the edge with Snow Family, or with our IoT devices. And no matter where they want to start, if they start in the cloud and they want to move to the edge, or they start in the edge and they want to bring the cloud value proposition, like, we're demonstrating all of that is happening this week. And, and very much so, we're also demonstrating that we're bringing the same type of ecosystem that we've built for enterprise IT. We're bringing that type of ecosystem to the telco companies, with CSPs, with the ISP vendors. We've seen plenty of announcements this week. You know, so on and so forth. >> So what's different, is it, the names are different? Is it really that simple, that you're just basically taking the cloud model into telco, and saying, "Hey, why do all this undifferentiated heavy lifting when we can do it for you? Don't worry about all the plumbing." Is it really that simple? I mean, that straightforward. >> Well, simple is probably not what I'd say, but we can make it straightforward. >> Conceptually. >> Conceptually, yes. Conceptually it is the same. Because if you think about, firstly, we'll just take 5G for a moment, right? The 5G folks, if you look at the architecture for 5G, it was designed to run on a cloud architecture. It was designed to be a set of services that you could partition, and run in different places, whether it's in the region or at the edge. So in many ways it is sort of that simple. And let me give you an example. Two things, the first one is we announced integrated private wireless on AWS, which allows enterprise customers to come to a portal and look at the industry solutions. They're not worried about their network, they're worried about solving a problem, right? And they can come to that portal, they can find a solution, they can find a service provider that will help them with that solution. And what they end up with is a fully validated offering that AWS telco SAS have actually put to its paces to make sure this is a real thing. And whether they get it from a telco, and, and quite frankly in that space, it's SIs such as Federated that actually help our customers deploy those in private environments. So that's an example. And then added to that, we had a second announcement, which was AWS telco network builder, which allows telcos to plan, deploy, and operate at scale telco network capabilities on the cloud, think about it this way- >> As a managed service? >> As a managed service. So think about it this way. And the same way that enterprise IT has been deploying, you know, infrastructure as code for years. Telco network builder allows the telco folks to deploy telco networks and their capabilities as code. So it's not simple, but it is pretty straightforward. We're making it more straightforward as we go. >> Jump in Dave, by the way. He can geek out if you want. >> Yeah, no, no, no, that's good, that's good, that's good. But actually, I'm going to ask an AWS question, but I'm going to ask Iyad the AWS question. So when we, when I hear the word cloud from Wayne, cloud, AWS, typically in people's minds that denotes off-premises. Out there, AWS data center. In the telecom space, yes, of course, in the private 5G space, we're talking about a little bit of a different dynamic than in the public 5G space, in terms of the physical infrastructure. But regardless at the edge, there are things that need to be physically at the edge. Do you feel that AWS is sufficiently, have they removed the H word, hybrid, from the list of bad words you're not allowed to say? 'Cause there was a point in time- >> Yeah, of course. >> Where AWS felt that their growth- >> They'll even say multicloud today, (indistinct). >> No, no, no, no, no. But there was a period of time where, rightfully so, AWS felt that the growth trajectory would be supported solely by net new things off premises. Now though, in this space, it seems like that hybrid model is critical. Do you see AWS being open to the hybrid nature of things? >> Yeah, they're, absolutely. I mean, just to explain from- we're a services company and a solutions company. So we put together solutions at the edge, a smart campus, smart agriculture, a deployment. One of our biggest deployment is a million square feet warehouse automation project with the Marine Corps. >> That's bigger than the Fira. >> Oh yeah, it's bigger, definitely bigger than, you know, a small section of here. It's actually three massive warehouses. So yes, that is the edge. What the cloud is about is that massive amount of efficiency has happened by concentrating applications in data centers. And that is programmability, that is APIs that is solutions, that is applications that can run on it, where people know how to do it. And so all that efficiency now is being ported in a box called the edge. What AWS is doing for us is bringing all the business and technical solutions they had into the edge. Some of the data may send back and forth, but that's actually a smaller piece of the value for us. By being able to bring an AWS package at the edge, we're bringing IoT applications, we're bringing high speed cameras, we're able to integrate with the 5G public network. We're able to bring in identity and devices, we're able to bring in solutions for students, embedded laptops. All of these things that you can do much much faster and cheaper if you are able to tap in the 4,000, 5,000 partners and all the applications and all the development and all the models that AWS team did. By being able to bring that efficiency to the edge why reinvent that? And then along with that, there are partners that you, that help do integration. There are development done to make it hardened, to make the data more secure, more isolated. All of these things will contribute to an edge that truly is a carbon copy of the data center. >> So Wayne, it's AWS, Regardless of where the compute, networking and storage physically live, it's AWS. Do you think that the term cloud will sort of drift away from usage? Because if, look, it's all IT, in this case it's AWS and federated IT working together. How, what's your, it's sort of a obscure question about cloud, because cloud is so integrated. >> You Got this thing about cloud, it's just IT. >> I got thing about cloud too, because- >> You and Larry Ellison. >> Because it's no, no, no, I'm, yeah, well actually there's- >> There's a lot of IT that's not cloud, just say that okay. >> Now, a lot of IT that isn't cloud, but I would say- >> But I'll (indistinct) cloud is an IT tool, and you see AWS obviously with the Snow fill in the blank line of products and outpost type stuff. Fair to say that you're, doesn't matter where it is, it could be AWS if it's on the edge, right? >> Well, you know, everybody wants to define the cloud as what it may have been when it started. But if you look at what it was when it started and what it is today, it is different. But the ability to bring the experience, the AWS experience, the services, the operational experience and all the things that Iyad had been talking about from the region all to all the way to, you know, the IoT device, if you would, that entire continuum. And it doesn't matter where you start. Like if you start in region and you need to bring your value to other places because your customers are asking you to do so, we're enabling that experience where you need to bring it. If you started at the edge, and- but you want to build cloud value, you know, whether it's again, cost efficiency, scalability, AI, ML or analytics into those capabilities, you can start at the edge with the same APIs, with the same service, the same capabilities, and you can build that value in right from the get go. You don't build this bifurcation or many separations and try to figure out how do I glue them together? There is no gluing together. So if you think of cloud as being elastic, scalable flexible, where you can drive innovation, it's the same exact model on the continuum. And you can start at either end, it's up to you as a customer. >> And I think if, the key to me is the ecosystem. I mean, if you can do for this industry what you've done for the technology- enterprise technology business from an ecosystem standpoint, you know everybody talks about flywheel, but that gives you like the massive flywheel. I don't know what the ratio is, but it used to be for every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 is spent in the ecosystem. I've never heard similar ratios in the AWS ecosystem, but it's, I go to reinvent and I'm like, there's some dollars being- >> That's a massive ecosystem. >> (indistinct). >> And then, and another thing I'll add is Jose Maria Alvarez, who's the chairman of Telefonica, said there's three pillars of the future-ready telco, low latency, programmable networks, and he said cloud and edge. So they recognizing cloud and edge, you know, low latency means you got to put the compute and the data, the programmable infrastructure was invented by Amazon. So what's the strategy around the telco edge? >> So, you know, at the end, so those are all great points. And in fact, the programmability of the network was a big theme in the show. It was a huge theme. And if you think about the cloud, what is the cloud? It's a set of APIs against a set of resources that you use in whatever way is appropriate for what you're trying to accomplish. The network, the telco network becomes a resource. And it could be described as a resource. We, I talked about, you know, network as in code, right? It's same infrastructure in code, it's telco infrastructure as code. And that code, that infrastructure, is programmable. So this is really, really important. And in how you build the ecosystem around that is no different than how we built the ecosystem around traditional IT abstractions. In fact, we feel that really the ecosystem is the killer app for 5G. You know, the killer app for 4G, data of sorts, right? We started using data beyond simple SMS messages. So what's the killer app for 5G? It's building this ecosystem, which includes the CSPs, the ISVs, all of the partners that we bring to the table that can drive greater value. It's not just about cost efficiency. You know, you can't save your way to success, right? At some point you need to generate greater value for your customers, which gives you better business outcomes, 'cause you can monetize them, right? The ecosystem is going to allow everybody to monetize 5G. >> 5G is like the dot connector of all that. And then developers come in on top and create new capabilities >> And how different is that than, you know, the original smartphones? >> Yeah, you're right. So what do you guys think of ChatGPT? (indistinct) to Amazon? Amazon turned the data center into an API. It's like we're visioning this world, and I want to ask that technologist, like, where it's turning resources into human language interfaces. You know, when you see that, you play with ChatGPT at all, or I know you guys got your own. >> So I won't speak directly to ChatGPT. >> No, don't speak from- >> But if you think about- >> Generative AI. >> Yeah generative AI is important. And, and we are, and we have been for years, in this space. Now you've been talking to AWS for a long time, and we often don't talk about things we don't have yet. We don't talk about things that we haven't brought to market yet. And so, you know, you'll often hear us talk about something, you know, a year from now where others may have been talking about it three years earlier, right? We will be talking about this space when we feel it's appropriate for our customers and our partners. >> You have talked about it a little bit, Adam Selipsky went on an interview with myself and John Furrier in October said you watch, you know, large language models are going to be enormous and I know you guys have some stuff that you're working on there. >> It's, I'll say it's exciting. >> Yeah, I mean- >> Well proof point is, Siri is an idiot compared to Alexa. (group laughs) So I trust one entity to come up with something smart. >> I have conversations with Alexa and Siri, and I won't judge either one. >> You don't need, you could be objective on that one. I definitely have a preference. >> Are the problems you guys solving in this space, you know, what's unique about 'em? What are they, can we, sort of, take some examples here (indistinct). >> Sure, the main theme is that the enterprise is taking control. They want to have their own networks. They want to focus on specific applications, and they want to build them with a skeleton crew. The one IT person in a warehouse want to be able to do it all. So what's unique about them is that they're now are a lot of automation on robotics, especially in warehousing environment agriculture. There simply aren't enough people in these industries, and that required precision. And so you need all that integration to make it work. People also want to build these networks as they want to control it. They want to figure out how do we actually pick this team and migrate it. Maybe just do the front of the house first. Maybe it's a security team that monitor the building, maybe later on upgrade things that use to open doors and close doors and collect maintenance data. So that ability to pick what you want to do from a new processors is really important. And then you're also seeing a lot of public-private network interconnection. That's probably the undercurrent of this show that haven't been talked about. When people say private networks, they're also talking about something called neutral host, which means I'm going to build my own network, but I want it to work, my Verizon (indistinct) need to work. There's been so much progress, it's not done yet. So much progress about this bring my own network concept, and then make sure that I'm now interoperating with the public network, but it's my domain. I can create air gaps, I can create whatever security and policy around it. That is probably the power of 5G. Now take all of these tiny networks, big networks, put them all in one ecosystem. Call it the Amazon marketplace, call it the Amazon ecosystem, that's 5G. It's going to be tremendous future. >> What does the future look like? We're going to, we just determined we're going to be orchestrating the network through human language, okay? (group laughs) But seriously, what's your vision for the future here? You know, both connectivity and cloud are on on a continuum. It's, they've been on a continuum forever. They're going to continue to be on a continuum. That being said, those continuums are coming together, right? They're coming together to bring greater value to a greater set of customers, and frankly all of us. So, you know, the future is now like, you know, this conference is the future, and if you look at what's going on, it's about the acceleration of the future, right? What we announced this week is really the acceleration of listening to customers for the last handful of years. And, we're going to continue to do that. We're going to continue to bring greater value in the form of solutions. And that's what I want to pick up on from the prior question. It's not about the network, it's not about the cloud, it's about the solutions that we can provide the customers where they are, right? And if they're on their mobile phone or they're in their factory floor, you know, they're looking to accelerate their business. They're looking to accelerate their value. They're looking to create greater safety for their employees. That's what we can do with these technologies. So in fact, when we came out with, you know, our announcement for integrated private wireless, right? It really was about industry solutions. It really isn't about, you know, the cloud or the network. It's about how you can leverage those technologies, that continuum, to deliver you value. >> You know, it's interesting you say that, 'cause again, when we were interviewing Adam Selipsky, everybody, you know, all journalists analysts want to know, how's Adam Selipsky going to be different from Andy Jassy, what's the, what's he going to do to Amazon to change? And he said, listen, the real answer is Amazon has changed. If Andy Jassy were here, we'd be doing all, you know, pretty much the same things. Your point about 17 years ago, the cloud was S3, right, and EC2. Now it's got to evolve to be solutions. 'Cause if that's all you're selling, is the bespoke services, then you know, the future is not as bright as the past has been. And so I think it's key to look for what are those outcomes or solutions that customers require and how you're going to meet 'em. And there's a lot of challenges. >> You continue to build value on the value that you've brought, and you don't lose sight of why that value is important. You carry that value proposition up the stack, but the- what you're delivering, as you said, becomes maybe a bigger or or different. >> And you are getting more solution oriented. I mean, you're not hardcore solutions yet, but we're seeing more and more of that. And that seems to be a trend. We've even seen in the database world, making things easier, connecting things. Not really an abstraction layer, which is sort of antithetical to your philosophy, but it creates a similar outcome in terms of simplicity. Yeah, you're smiling 'cause you guys always have a different angle, you know? >> Yeah, we've had this conversation. >> It's right, it's, Jassy used to say it's okay to be misunderstood. >> That's Right. For a long time. >> Yeah, right, guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. I'm so glad we could make this happen. >> It's always good. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, Dave Nicholson, for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, John Furrier in the Palo Alto studio. We're here at the Fira, wrapping out MWC23. Keep it right there, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(inspirational music) >> theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (uplifting electronic music) (crowd chattering in background) >> Hi everybody. We're back at the Fira in Barcelona. Winding up our four day wall-to-wall coverage of MWC23 theCUBE has been thrilled to cover the telco transformation. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Really excited to have NTT on. Shahid Ahmed is the Group EVP of New Ventures and Innovation at NTT in from Chicago. Welcome to Barcelona. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you for having me over. >> So, really interesting title. You have, you know, people might not know NTT you know, huge Japan telco but a lot of other businesses, explain your business. >> So we do a lot of things. Most of us are known for our Docomo business in Japan. We have one of the largest wireless cellular carriers in the world. We serve most of Japan. Outside of Japan, we are B2B systems, integration, professional services company. So we offer managed services. We have data centers, we have undersea cables. We offer all kinds of outsourcing services. So we're a big company. >> So there's a narrative out there that says, you know, 5G, it's a lot of hype, not a lot of adoption. Nobody's ever going to make money at 5G. You have a different point of view, I understand. You're like leaning into 5G and you've actually got some traction there. Explain that. >> So 5G can be viewed from two lenses. One is just you and I using our cell phones and we get 5G coverage over it. And the other one is for businesses to use 5G, and we call that private 5G or enterprise grade 5G. Two very separate distinct things, but it is 5G in the end. Now the big debate here in Europe and US is how to monetize 5G. As a consumer, you and I are not going to pay extra for 5G. I mean, I haven't. I just expect the carrier to offer faster, cheaper services. And so would I pay extra? Not really. I just want a reliable network from my carrier. >> Paid up for the good camera though, didn't you? >> I did. (Dave and Dave laughing) >> I'm waiting for four cameras now. >> So the carriers are in this little bit of a pickle at the moment because they've just spent billions of dollars, not only on spectrum but the infrastructure needed to upgrade to 5G, yet nobody's willing to pay extra for that 5G service. >> Oh, right. >> So what do they do? And one idea is to look at enterprises, companies, industrial companies, manufacturing companies who want to build their own 5G networks to support their own use cases. And these use cases could be anything from automating the surveyor belt to cameras with 5G in it to AGVs. These are little carts running around warehouses picking up products and goods, but they have to be connected all the time. Wifi doesn't work all the time there. And so those businesses are willing to pay for 5G. So your question is, is there a business case for 5G? Yes. I don't think it's in the consumer side. I think it's in the business side. And that's where NTT is finding success. >> So you said, you know, how they going to make money, right? You very well described the telco dilemma. We heard earlier this week, you know, well, we could tax the OTT vendors, like Netflix of course shot back and said, "Well, we spent a lot of money on content. We're driving a lot of value. Why don't you help us pay for the content development?" Which is incredibly expensive. I think I heard we're going to tax the developers for API calls on the network. I'm not sure how well that's going to work out. Look at Twitter, you know, we'll see. And then yeah, there's the B2B piece. What's your take on, we heard the Orange CEO say, "We need help." You know, maybe implying we're going to tax the OTT vendors, but we're for net neutrality, which seems like it's completely counter-posed. What's your take on, you know, fair share in the network? >> Look, we've seen this debate unfold in the US for the last 10 years. >> Yeah. >> Tom Wheeler, the FCC chairman started that debate and he made great progress and open internet and net neutrality. The thing is that if you create a lane, a tollway, where some companies have to pay toll and others don't have to, you create an environment where the innovation could be stifled. Content providers may not appear on the scene anymore. And with everything happening around AI, we may see that backfire. So creating a toll for rich companies to be able to pay that toll and get on a faster speed internet, that may work some places may backfire in others. >> It's, you know, you're bringing up a great point. It's one of those sort of unintended consequences. You got to be be careful because the little guy gets crushed in that environment, and then what? Right? Then you stifle innovation. So, okay, so you're a fan of net neutrality. You think the balance that the US model, for a change, maybe the US got it right instead of like GDPR, who sort of informed the US on privacy, maybe the opposite on net neutrality. >> I think so. I mean, look, the way the US, particularly the FCC and the FTC has mandated these rules and regulation. I think it's a nice balance. FTC is all looking at big tech at the moment, but- >> Lena Khan wants to break up big tech. I mean for, you know, you big tech, boom, break 'em up, right? So, but that's, you know- >> That's a whole different story. >> Yeah. Right. We could talk about that too, if you want. >> Right. But I think that we have a balanced approach, a measured approach. Asking the content providers or the developers to pay for your innovative creative application that's on your phone, you know, that's asking for too much in my opinion. >> You know, I think you're right though. Government did do a good job with net neutrality in the US and, I mean, I'm just going to go my high horse for a second, so forgive me. >> Go for it. >> Market forces have always done a better job at adjudicating, you know, competition. Now, if a company's a monopoly, in my view they should be, you know, regulated, or at least penalized. Yeah, but generally speaking, you know the attack on big tech, I think is perhaps misplaced. I sat through, and the reason it's relevant to Mobile World Congress or MWC, is I sat through a Nokia presentation this week and they were talking about Bell Labs when United States broke up, you know, the US telcos, >> Yeah. >> Bell Labs was a gem in the US and now it's owned by Nokia. >> Yeah. >> Right? And so you got to be careful about, you know what you wish for with breaking up big tech. You got AI, you've got, you know, competition with China- >> Yeah, but the upside to breaking up Ma Bell was not just the baby Bells and maybe the stranded orphan asset of Bell Labs, but I would argue it led to innovation. I'm old enough to remember- >> I would say it made the US less competitive. >> I know. >> You were in junior high school, but I remember as an adult, having a rotary dial phone and having to pay for that access, and there was no such- >> Yeah, but they all came back together. The baby Bells are all, they got all acquired. And the cable company, it was no different. So I don't know, do you have a perspective of this? Because you know this better than I do. >> Well, I think look at Nokia, just they announced a whole new branding strategy and new brand. >> I like the brand. >> Yeah. And- >> It looks cool. >> But guess what? It's B2B oriented. >> (laughs) Yeah. >> It's no longer consumer, >> Right, yeah. >> because they felt that Nokia brand phone was sort of misleading towards a lot of business to business work that they do. And so they've oriented themselves to B2B. Look, my point is, the carriers and the service providers, network operators, and look, I'm a network operator, too, in Japan. We need to innovate ourselves. Nobody's stopping us from coming up with a content strategy. Nobody's stopping a carrier from building a interesting, new, over-the-top app. In fact, we have better control over that because we are closer to the customer. We need to innovate, we need to be more creative. I don't think taxing the little developer that's building a very innovative application is going to help in the long run. >> NTT Japan, what do they have a content play? I, sorry, I'm not familiar with it. Are they strong in content, or competitive like Netflix-like, or? >> We have relationships with them, and you remember i-mode? >> Yeah. Oh yeah, sure. >> Remember in the old days. I mean, that was a big hit. >> Yeah, yeah, you're right. >> Right? I mean, that was actually the original app marketplace. >> Right. >> And the application store. So, of course we've evolved from that and we should, and this is an evolution and we should look at it more positively instead of looking at ways to regulate it. We should let it prosper and let it see where- >> But why do you think that telcos generally have failed at content? I mean, AT&T is sort of the exception that proves the rule. I mean, they got some great properties, obviously, CNN and HBO, but generally it's viewed as a challenging asset and others have had to diversify or, you know, sell the assets. Why do you think that telcos have had such trouble there? >> Well, Comcast owns also a lot of content. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. >> And I think, I think that is definitely a strategy that should be explored here in Europe. And I think that has been underexplored. I, in my opinion, I believe that every large carrier must have some sort of content strategy at some point, or else you are a pipe. >> Yeah. You lose touch with a customer. >> Yeah. And by the way, being a dump pipe is okay. >> No, it's a lucrative business. >> It's a good business. You just have to focus. And if you start to do a lot of ancillary things around it then you start to see the margins erode. But if you just focus on being a pipe, I think that's a very good business and it's very lucrative. Everybody wants bandwidth. There's insatiable demand for bandwidth all the time. >> Enjoy the monopoly, I say. >> Yeah, well, capital is like an organism in and of itself. It's going to seek a place where it can insert itself and grow. Do you think that the questions around fair share right now are having people wait in the wings to see what's going to happen? Because especially if I'm on the small end of creating content, creating services, and there's possibly a death blow to my fixed costs that could be coming down the line, I'm going to hold back and wait. Do you think that the answer is let's solve this sooner than later? What are your thoughts? >> I think in Europe the opinion has been always to go after the big tech. I mean, we've seen a lot of moves either through antitrust, or other means. >> Or the guillotine! >> That's right. (all chuckle) A guillotine. Yes. And I've heard those directly. I think, look, in the end, EU has to decide what's right for their constituents, the countries they operate, and the economy. Frankly, with where the economy is, you got recession, inflation pressures, a war, and who knows what else might come down the pipe. I would be very careful in messing with this equilibrium in this economy. Until at least we have gone through this inflation and recessionary pressure and see what happens. >> I, again, I think I come back to markets, ultimately, will adjudicate. I think what we're seeing with chatGPT is like a Netscape moment in some ways. And I can't predict what's going to happen, but I can predict that it's going to change the world. And there's going to be new disruptors that come about. That just, I don't think Amazon, Google, Facebook, Apple are going to rule the world forever. They're just, I guarantee they're not, you know. They'll make it through. But there's going to be some new companies. I think it might be open AI, might not be. Give us a plug for NTT at the show. What do you guys got going here? Really appreciate you coming on. >> Thank you. So, you know, we're showing off our private 5G network for enterprises, for businesses. We see this as a huge opportunities. If you look around here you've got Rohde & Schwarz, that's the industrial company. You got Airbus here. All the big industrial companies are here. Automotive companies and private 5G. 5G inside a factory, inside a hospital, a warehouse, a mining operation. That's where the dollars are. >> Is it a meaningful business for you today? >> It is. We just started this business only a couple of years ago. We're seeing amazing growth and I think there's a lot of good opportunities there. >> Shahid Ahmed, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. It was great to have you. Really a pleasure. >> Thanks for having me over. Great questions. >> Oh, you're welcome. All right. For David Nicholson, Dave Vellante. We'll be back, right after this short break, from the Fira in Barcelona, MWC23. You're watching theCUBE. (uplifting electronic music)