(upbeat music) >> Greetings from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. We are on day three of the caves wall-to-wall coverage of KubeCon CloudNativeCon North America 21. We're pleased to welcome Mark Hinkle to the program, the co-founder and CEO of TriggerMesh. Mark welcome. >> Thank you, It's nice to be here. >> Lisa: Love the name. Very interesting TriggerMesh. Talk to us about what TriggerMesh does and what, when you were founded and what some of the gaps were that you saw in the market. >> Yeah, so TriggerMesh actually the Genesis of the name is in, cloud event, driven architecture. You trigger workloads. So that's the trigger and trigger mesh, and then mesh, we mesh services together, so cloud, so that's why we're called TriggerMesh. So we're a cloud native open source integration platform. And the idea is that, the number of cloud services are proliferating. You still have stuff in your data center that you can't decommission and just wholesale lift and shift to the cloud. So we wanted to provide a platform to create workflows from the data center, to the cloud, from cloud to cloud and not, and use all the cloud native design principles, but not leave your past behind. So that's, what we do. We're, very, we were cloud, we are cloud operators and developers, and we wanted the experience to be very similar to the way that DevOps folks are doing infrastructure code and deploying that we want to make it easy to do integration as code. So we follow the same design patterns, use the same domain languages, some of those tools like Hashi corpse, Terraform, and that that's what we do and how we go about doing it. >> Lisa: And when were you guys founded? >> September, 2018. >> Oh so your young, your three years young. >> Three years it's feels like 21 >> I bet. >> And startup years it's a lot has happened, but yeah, we my co-founder and I were former early cloud folks. We were at cloud.com worked through the OpenStack years and the CloudStack, and we just saw the pattern of, abstraction coming about. So first you abstract the hardware, then you abstract the operating system. And now at with the Kubernetes container, you know, evolution, you're abstracting it up to the application layer and we want it to be able to provide tooling that lets you take full advantage of that. >> Dave: So being founded in 2018, what's your perception of that? The shift that happened during the pandemic in terms of the drive towards cloud adoption and the demands for services like you provide? >> Mark: Yeah, I think it's a mixed blessing. So we, people became more remote. They needed to enable digital transformation. Biggest thing, I think that that for us is, you know, you don't go to the bank anymore. And the banking industry is doing, you know, exponentially more remote, online transactions than in person. And it's very important. So we decided that financial services is where we were going to start with first because they have a lot of legacy architecture. They have a lot of need to move to the cloud to have better digital experiences. And we wanted to enable them to, you know, keep their mainframes online while they were still doing cutting edge, you know, mobile applications, that kind of thing. >> Lisa: And of course the legacy institutions like the BFA's the Wells Fargo, they're competing with the fintechs who are much more nimble, much more agile and able to sort of disrupt the financial services industry. Was that part of also your decision to start in financial services? >> It was a little bit of luck because we started with our network and it turned out the, you know, we saw, we started talking to our friends early on, cause we're a startup and said, this is what we're going to do. And where it really resonated was PNC bank was our, one of our first customers. You know, another financial regulatory company was another one, a couple of banks in Europe. And we, you know, as we started talking about what we were doing, that we just gravitated there because they had the, the biggest need, even though everybody has the need, their businesses are, you know, critically tied to digital transformation. >> So starting with financial services. >> It's, it's counter intuitive, isn't it? >> It was counterintuitive, but it lends credibility to any other industry vertical that you're going to approach. >> Yeah, yeah it does. It's a, it's a great, they're going to be our hardest customers and they have more at stake than a lot of like transactions are millions and millions of dollars per hour for these folks. So they don't want to play around, they, they have no tolerance for failure. So it's a good start, but it's sort of like taking up jogging and running a marathon in your first week. It's very very grilling in that sense, but it really has made us a lot better and gave us a lot of insight into the kinds of things we need to do from not just functionality, but security and that kind of thing. >> Where are you finding these customers with respect to adoption of Kubernetes? Are they leading? Are they knowing we've got to get there eventually from an infrastructure perspective? >> So the interesting thing is Kubernetes is a platform for us to deliver on, so we, we don't require you to be a Kubernetes expert we offer it as a SaaS, but what happens is that the Kubernetes folks are the ones that we end up really engaging with earlier on. And I think that we find that they're in this phase of they're containerizing their apps, that's the first step. And then they're putting them on Kubernetes and then their next step is a security and integration path. So once she, I think they call it and this is my buzzword of the show day two operations, right? So they, they get to day two and then they have a security and an integration concern before they go live. So they want to be able to make sure that they don't increase their attack face. And then they also want to make sure that this newly deployed containerized infrastructure is as well integrated as the previous, you know, virtualized or even, you know, on the server infrastructure that they had before. >> So TriggerMesh, doesn't solely work in the containerized world, you're, you're sort of you're bridging the divide. >> Mark: Yes. >> What percentage of the workloads that you're seeing are the result of modernization migration, as opposed to standing up net new application environments in Kubernetes? Do you have a sense for that? >> I think we live in a lot in the brown field. So, you know, folks that have an existing project that they're trying to bridge to it versus the Greenfield kind of, you know, the, the huge wins that you saw in the early cloud days of the Netflix and the Twitter's Dwayne scale. Now we're talking to the enterprises who have, you know, they have existing concerns. So I would say that it's, it's mostly people that are, you know, very few net new projects, unless it's a modernization and they're getting ready to decommission an old one, which is. >> Dave: So Brownfield financial services. You just said, you know, let's just, let's just go after that. >> You know, yeah. I mean, we had this dart forward and we put up buzzwords, but no, it was, it was actually just, and you know, we're still finding our way as far as early on where we're open source folks. And we did not open source from day one, which is very weird when everybody's new, your identity is, you know, I worked, I was the VP of marketing for Linux foundation and no JS and all these open source projects. And my co-founder and I are Apache committers. And our project wasn't open yet because we had to get to the point where it could be open and people could be productive in the use and contribution. And we had to staff up engineers. And now I think this week we open-sourced our entire platform. And I think that's going to open up, you know, that's where we started because it was not necessarily the lowest hanging fruit, but the profitable, less profitable, lowest hanging fruit was financial services. Now we are letting our code out into the wild. And I think it'll be interesting to see what comes back. >> So you just announced that this week TriggerMesh integration platform as an open source project here at KubeCon, what's been some of the feedback? >> It's all been positive. I haven't heard anything negative. We did it, so we're very, very, there's a very, the culture around open source is very tough. It's very critical if you don't do it right. So I think we did a good job, we used enough, we used a OSI approved. They've been sourced, licensed the Apache software, a V2 license. We hired someone who was well-respected in the DevREL world from a chef who understands the DevOps sort of culture methodologies. We staffed up our engineers who are going to be helping the free and open source users. So they're successful and we're betting that that will yield business results down the road. >> Lisa: And what are the two I see on your website, two primary use cases that you guys support. Can you dig into details on that? >> So the first one is sort of a workflow automation and a really simple example of that is you have a, something that happens in one cloud. So for example, you take a picture on your phone and you upload it and it goes to Amazon and there is a service that wants to identify what's in that picture. And once you put it on the line and the internship parlance, you could kick off a workflow from TensorFlow, which is artificial intelligence to identify the picture. And there isn't a good way for clouds to communicate from one to the other, without writing custom blue, which is really what, what we're helping to get rid of is there's a lot of blue written to put together cloud native applications. So that's a workflow, you know, triggering a server less function is the workflow. The other thing is actually breaking up data gravity. So I have a warehouse of data, in my data center, and I want to start replicating some portion of that. As it changes to a database as a service, we can based on an event flow, which is passive. We're not, we're not making, having a conversation like you would with an API where there's an event stream. That's like drinking from the fire hose and TriggerMesh is the nozzle. And we can direct that data to a DBaaS. We can direct that data to snowflake. We can direct that data to a cloud-based data lake on Microsoft Azure, or we can split it up, so some events could go to Splunk and all of the events can go to your data lake or some of those, those things can be used to trigger workloads on other systems. And that event driven architecture is really the design pattern of the individual clouds. We're just making it multi-cloud and on-prem. >> Lisa: Do you have a favorite customer example that you think really articulates that the value of that use case? >> Mark: Yeah I think a PNC is probably our, well for the, for the data flow one, I would say we have a regular to Oracle and one of their customers it was their biggest SMB customer of last year. The Oracle cloud is very, very important, but it's not as tool. It doesn't have the same level of tooling as a lot of the other ones. And to, to close that deal, their regulatory customer wanted to use Datadog. So they have hundreds and hundreds of metrics. And what TriggerMesh did was ingest the hundreds and hundreds of metrics and filter them and connect them to Datadog so that, they could, use Datadog to measure, to monitor workloads on Oracle cloud. So that, would be an example of the data flow on the workflow. PNC bank is, is probably our best example and PNC bank. They want to do. I talked about infrastructure code integration is code. They want to do policy as code. So they're very highly regulatory regulated. And what they used to do is they had policies that they applied against all their systems once a month, to determine how much they were in compliance. Well, theoretically if you do that once a month, it could be 30 days before you knew where you were out of compliance. What we did was, we provided them a way to take all of the changes within their systems and for them to a server less cluster. And they codified all of these policies into server less functions and TriggerMesh is triggering their policies as code. So upon change, they're getting almost real-time updates on whether or not they're in compliance or not. And that's a huge thing. And they're going to, they have, within their first division, we worked with, you know, tens of policies throughout PNC. They have thousands of policies. And so that's really going to revolutionize what they're able to do as far as compliance. And that's a huge use case across the whole banking system. >> That's also a huge business outcome. >> Yes. >> So Mark, where can folks go to learn more about TriggerMesh, maybe even read about more specifically about the announcement that you made this week. >> TriggerMesh.com is the best way to get an overview. The open source project is get hub.com/triggermesh/trigger mesh. >> Awesome Mark, thank you for joining Dave and me talking to us about TriggerMesh, what you guys are doing. The use cases that you're enabling customers. We appreciate your time and we wish you best of luck as you continue to forge into financial services and other industries. >> Thanks, it was great to be here. >> All right. For Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you live from Los Angeles at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 21, stick around Dave and I, will be right back with our next guest.

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE live here in Seattle for day three of three of wall-to-wall coverage. We've been analyzing here on theCUBE for three days, talking to all the experts, the CEOs, CTOs, developers, startups. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, with theCUBE coverage of here at dock, not DockerCon, KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Getting down to the last Con. >> So close, John, so close. >> Lot of Docker containers around here. We'll check it on the Kubernetes. Our next two guests got a startup, hot startup here. You got Norman Hsieh, head of business development, LogDNA. New compelling solution on Kubernetes give them a unique advantage, and of course, Daniel Berg who's distinguished engineer at IBM. They have a deal. We're going to talk about the startup and the deal with IBM. The highlights, kind of a new model, a new world's developing. Thanks for joining us. >> Yeah, no problem, thanks for having us. >> May get you on at DockerCon sometimes. (Daniel laughing) Get you DockerCon. The container certainly been great, talk about your product first. Let's get your company out there. What do you guys do? You got something new and different. Something needed. What's different about it? >> Yeah, so we started building this product. One thing we were trying to do is finding a login solution that was built for developers, especially around DevOps. We were running our own multi-tenant SaaS product at the time and we just couldn't find anything great. We tried open source Elastic and it turned out to be a lot to manage, there was a lot of configuration we had to do. We tried a bunch of the other products out there which were mostly built for log analysis, so you'd analyze logs, maybe a week or two after, and there was nothing just realtime that we wanted, and so we decided to build our own. We overcame a lot of challenges where we just felt that we could build something that was easier to use than what was out there today. Our philosophy is for developers in the terms of we want to make it as simple as possible. We don't want you to manage where you're going to think about how logs work today. And so, the whole idea, even you can go down to some of the integrations that we have, our Kubernetes integration's two lines. You essentially hit two QCTL lines, your entire cluster will get logged, directly logged in in seconds. That's something we show often times at demos as well. >> Norman, I wonder if you can drill in a little bit more for us. Always look at is a lot of times the new generation, they've got just new tools to play with and new things to do. What was different, what changes? Just the composability and what a small form factor. I would think that you could just change the order of magnitude in some of the pricing of some of these. Tell us why it's different. >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's, three major things was speed. So what we found was that there weren't a lot of solutions that were optimized really, really well for finding logs. There were a lot of log solutions out there, but we wanted to optimize that so we fine-tuned Elasticsearch. We do a lot of stuff around there to make that experience really pleasurable for our users. The other is scale. So we're noticing now is if you kind of expand on the world of back in the day we had single machines that people got logs off of, then you went to VMware where you're taking a single machine and splitting up to multiple different things, and now you have containers, and all of a sudden you have Kubernetes, you're talking about thousands and thousands of nodes running and large production service. How do you find logs in those things? And so we really wanted to build for that scale and that usability where, for Kubernetes, we'll automatically tag all your logs coming through. So you might get a single log line, but we'll tag it with all the meta-data you need to find exactly what you want. So if I want to, if my container dies and I no longer know that containers around, how am I going to get the logs off of that, well, you can go to LogDNA, find the container that you're looking for, know exactly where that error's coming from as well. >> So you're basically storing all this data, making it really easy for the integration piece. Where does the IBM relationship fit in? What's the partnership? What are you guys doing together? >> I don't know if Dan wants to-- >> Go ahead, go ahead. >> Yeah, so we're partnering with IBM. We are one of their major partners for login. So if you go into Observability tab under IMB Cloud and click on Login, login is there, you can start the login instance. What we've done is, IBM's brought us a great opportunity where we could take our product and help benefit their own customers and also IBM themselves with a lot of the login that we do. They saw that we are very simplistic way of thinking about logs and it was really geared towards when you think about IBM Cloud and the shift that they're moving towards, which is really developer-focused, it was a really, really good match for us. It brought us the visibility into the upmarket with larger customers and also gives us the ability to kind of deploy globally across IBM Cloud as well. >> I mean, IBMs got a great channel on the sales side too, and you guys got a great relationship. We've seen that playbook before where I think we've interviewed in all the other events with IBM. Startups can really, if they fit in with IBM, it's just massive, but what's the reason? Why the partnership? Explain. >> Well, I mean, first of all we were looking for a solution, a login solution, that fit really well with IKS, our Kubernetes service. And it's cloud-native, high scale, large number of cluster, that's what our customers are building. That's what we want to use internally as well. I mean, we were looking for a very robust cloud-native login service that we could use ourselves, and that's when we ran across these guys. What, about a year ago? >> Yeah, I mean, I think we kind of first got introduced at last year's KubeCon and then it went to Container World, and we just kept seeing each other. >> And we just kept on rolling with it so what we've done with that integration, what's nice about the integration, is it's directly in the catalog. So it's another service in the catalog, you go and select it, and provision it very easily. But what's really cool about it is we wanted to have that integration directly with the Kubernetes services as well, so there's the tab on the Integration tab on the Kubernetes, literally one button, two lines of code that you just have to execute, bam! All your logs are now streaming for the entire cluster with all the index and everything. It just makes it a really nice, rich experience to capture your logs. >> This is infrastructure as code, that's what the promise was. >> Absolutely, yes. >> You have very seamless integration and the backend just works. Now talk about the Kubernetes pieces. I think this is fascinating 'cause we've been pontificating and evaluating all the commentary here in theCUBE, and we've come to the conclusion that cloud's great, but there's other new platform-like things emerging. You got Edge and all these things, so there's a whole new set, new things are going to come up, and it's not going to be just called cloud, it's going to be something else. There's Edge, you got cameras, you got data, you got all kinds of stuff going on. Kubernetes seems to fit a lot of these emerging use cases. Where does the Kubernetes fit in? You say you built on Kubernetes, just why is that so important? Explain that one piece. >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's, Kubernetes obviously brought a lot of opportunities for us. The big differentiator for us was because we were built on Kubernetes from the get go, we made that decision a long time ago, we didn't realize we could actually deploy this package anywhere. It didn't have to be, we didn't have to just run as a multi-tenant SaaS product anymore and I think part of that is for IBM, their customers are actually running, when they're talking about an integrated login service, we're actually running on IBM Cloud, so their customers can be sure that the data doesn't actually move anywhere else. It's going to stay in IBM Cloud and-- >> This is really important and because they're on the Kubernetes service, it gives them the opportunity, running on Kubernetes, running automatic service, they're going to be able to put LogDNA in each of the major regions. So customer will be able to keep their logged data in the regions that they want it to stay. >> Great for compliance. >> Absolutely. >> I mean, compliance, dreams-- >> Got to have it. >> Especially with EU. >> How about search and discovery, that's fit in too? Just simple, what's your strategy on that? >> Yeah, so our strategy is if you look at a lot of the login solutions out there today, a lot of times they require you to learn complex query languages and things like that. And so the biggest thing we were hearing was like, man, onboarding is really hard because some of our developers don't look at logs on a daily basis. They look at it every two weeks. >> Jerry Chen from Greylock Ventures said machine learning is the new, ML is the new SQL. >> Yup. (Daniel laughing) >> To your point, this complex querying is going to be automated away. >> Yup. >> Yes. >> And you guys agree with that. >> Oh, yeah. >> You actually, >> Totally agree with that. >> you talked about it on our interview. >> Norman, wonder if you can bring us in a little bit of compliance and what discussions you're having with customers. Obviously GDPR, big discussion point we had. We've got new laws coming from California soon. So how important is this to your customers, and what's the reality kind of out there in your user base? >> Yeah, compliance was, our founders had run a lot of different businesses before. They had two major startups where they worked with eBay, compliance was the big thing, so we made a decision early on to say, hey, look, we're about 50 people right now, let's just do compliance now. I've been at startups where we go, let's just keep growing and growing and we'll worry about compliance later-- >> Yeah, bite you in the ass, big time. >> Yeah, we made a decision to say, hey, look, we're smaller, let's just implement all the processes and necessary needs, so. >> Well, the need's there too, that's two things, right? I mean, get it out early. Like security, build it up front and you got it in. >> Exactly. >> And remember earlier we were talking and I was telling you how within the Kubernetes service we like to use our own services to build expertise? It's the same thing here. Not only are they running on top of IKS, we're using LogDNA to manage the logs and everything, and cross the infrastructure for IKS as well. So we're heavily using it. >> This also highlights, Daniel, the ecosystem dynamic of having when you break down this monolithic type of environments and their sets of services, you benefit because you can tap into a startup, they can tap in to IBM's goodness. It's like somewhat simple Biz Dev deal other than the RevShare component of the sales, but technically, this is what customers want at the endgame is they want the right tool, the right job, the right product. If it comes from a startup, you guys don't have to build it. >> I mean, exactly. Let the experts do it, we'll integrate it. It's a great relationship. And the teams work really well together which is fantastic. >> What do you guys do with other startups? If a startup watches and says, hey, I want to be like LogDNA. I want to plug into IBM's Cloud. I want to be just like them and make all that cash. What do they got to do? What's the model? >> I mean, we're constantly looking at startups and new business opportunities obviously. We do this all the time. But it's got to be the right fit, alright? And that's important. It's got to be the right fit with the technology, it's got to be the right fit as far as culture, and team dynamics of not only my team but the startup's teams and how we're going to work together, and this is why it worked really great with LogDNA. I mean, everything, it just all fit, it all made sense, and it had a good business model behind that as well. So, yes, there's opportunities for others but we have to go through and explore all those. >> So, Norman, wonder if you can share, how's your experience been at the show here? We'd love to hear, you're going to have so many startups here. You got record-setting attendance for the show. What were your expectations coming in? What are the KPIs you're measuring with and how has it met what you thought you were going to get? >> No, it's great, I mean, previous to the last year's KubeCon we had not really done any events. We're a small company, we didn't want to spend the resources, but we came in last year and I think what was refreshing was people would talk to us and we're like, oh, yeah, we're not an open source technology, we're actually a log vendor and we can, and we'll-- (Stu laughing) So what we said was, hey, we'll brush that into an experience, and people were like, oh, wow, this is actually pretty refreshing. I'm not configuring my fluentd system, fluentd to tap into another Elasticsearch. There was just not a lot of that. I think this year expectation was we need the size doubled. We still wanted to get the message out there. We knew we were hot off the presses with the IMB public launch of our service on IBM Cloud. And I think we we're expecting a lot. I mean, we more than doubled what our lead count was and it's been an amazing conference. I mean, I think the energy that you get and the quality of folks that come by, it's like, yeah, everybody's running Kubernetes, they know what they're talking about, and it makes that conversation that much easier for us as well. >> Now you're CUBE alumni now too. It's the booth, look at that. (everyone laughing) Well, guys, thanks for coming on, sharing the insight. Good to see you again. Great commentary, again, having distinguished engineering, and these kinds of conversations really helps the community figure out kind of what's out there, so I appreciate that. And if everything's going to be on Kubernetes, then we should put theCUBE on Kubernetes. With these videos, we'll be on it, we'll be out there. >> Hey, yeah, absolutely, that'd be great. >> TheCUBE covers day three. Breaking it down here. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman. That's a wrap for us here in Seattle. Thanks for watching and look for us next year, 2019. That's a wrap for 2018, Stu, good job. Thanks for coming on, guys, really appreciate it. >> Thanks. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for watching, see you around. (futuristic instrumental music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage here. Day three of wall to wall coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018, here in Seattle, theCUBE's been breaking it down all week. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next guest is Tuan Nguyen who is the principal engineer in technical marketing, cloud products and solutions at Cisco Systems. Tuan, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for joining us. >> Thanks for having me. Thank you. >> So obviously, cloud has been a big part of Cisco. We've seen at Cisco Live last year and Cisco Barcelona. >> Yeah. >> Got your big European event coming up, Cisco Live in Europe. >> Yes. >> Cloud has been a big part of the CEO's conversations on stage. >> Yes. >> Cisco's going all in on cloud, DevNet. >> Yeah. >> DevNet Create, two communities. You guys got a cloud native vibe going on in Cisco. >> Yeah, we do. >> Cloud centered. You got some products that are addressing this. >> Right. >> This is a, shift for Cisco, big time. >> Yeah. >> You've in the cloud, but this is like all. It feels like an all in. >> Right, right. Yeah, yeah, so what we've been evangelizing to people here is that Cisco is a software company, right? We certainly have a very strong heritage in our enterprise relationships related to our hardware platforms but we're transitioning and we're really making that conversion to being a software company. Cisco has been acquiring talent and technology in the past couple years. We've developed some strong relationships with Google and AWS as well and we developed these reference architectures that our customers can buy as kind of a single unit and get the support that they need from us. >> Yeah. >> So. >> We covered your recent announcement with AWS. >> Yes. >> Really nice, elegantly designed Kubernetes strategy where using EKS over here, you got the Cisco stuff on here so it's seamless experience for the customer which is great, congrats, I think that's a great announcement. I think it's directionally correct. I think that's what customers want. But I want to ask you a bigger question I want to get your opinion on, perspective. When you look at Kubernetes, what we're hearing here at the show from end users and from the emerging start ups that are contributing is that, breaking down the monolithic application into a series of granule sets of services is what everyone is doing. That's clearly, that microservices, a variety of other things, Kubernetes can connect that. But it's the network that brings it together. >> Right. >> So we're seeing the policy knobs inside Kubernetes as being a very strategic benefit. We had one expert say, "A lot of people "aren't taking advantage of those policy knobs. "This is a great opportunity." >> Right. >> You guys are, (laughing) as networked as you could be at Cisco. This is your DNA. >> Yeah. >> How are you guys looking at Kubernetes? Are you looking at the policy knobs? How do you talk to your customers about this new opportunity with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. >> What's the real up side-- >> Yeah. >> For your customers with Kubernetes? >> Yeah. So one, you mentioned, we see Kubernetes as very pervasive so we offer an on prem version of Kubernetes and of course, you know, we partner with Google and with AWS to deliver on cloud versions of Kubernetes and related to policies, application policies, in the form of Istio and network policies or security policies in the form of a network interface. Our on prem solution offers three types of CNIs. So we're very flexible in that way and certainly if you are a Cisco customer and you have a Cisco ecosystem of hardware platforms then we natively integrate into those platforms and we let you leverage your existing investments, yeah. >> So if I look at it that way, then I'm saying, okay, I'm good with Cisco right now. >> Yeah. >> Do I have to change anything with Kubernetes? What's the impact to me, as a Cisco customer? >> Yeah. >> Is this added value? Consistent environment? What's the impact to the customer's day to day, operational? (laughing) >> Sure, sure. Yeah. >> Environment? >> Yeah, so our customers are asking us to tie both VM based and container based workloads into CICD, so we obviously, with with our ACI/CNI we give them the capability to construct policies in Kubernetes that end up on the hardware platform, right? That's number one. Then we also have a hardware registry, we have security policies, that can be carried across different platforms, so in your private cloud and VMware and OpenStack, you can carry those same policies. For us, we've got application delivery, frameworks and platforms, that deliver the application in the form of both VM and container based as well as bare metal and we kind of unify the user experience, when it comes to application deployment in Kubernetes. >> Yeah, so Tuan, I'm actually glad that we got you towards the end of what we've been talking about here because one of the things we've been teasing apart is, multi clouds, in many ways, is like what we've been talking about a long time about multi vendor. >> Yeah. >> And the networking space is an area that we really understand. You know, what worked and what didn't work in a multi vendor world and the management piece was often the breaking point because just stitching all those together, we've looked for the last few years, customers have multi cloud and getting their arms around that and how do I manage that, can be a real challenge. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We know Cisco's making investments, they've made acquisitions. Tell us, what have we learned from the past? What's different about this now that will make it successful where management has been one of the pitfalls for quite a long time? >> Yeah, yeah. So I think what we've learned from the past is that customers are asking us for policies that can span across the multi cloud, right? So, whereas certain platforms will give you a hybrid cloud experience, Cisco is investing in things like VPN meshed apologies into CSR, in ASR, in protecting workloads as they move across different cloud targets. And then also in the provisioning and life cycle management. We feel that customers want the capability to run applications in any cloud environment and under any type of overlay or underlay networking platforms, yeah. >> Tuan, one of the things that you talk about not only getting your arms around it but there is multi axis's that I need to optimize for. One of the ones, of course, sorting out is cost. So, you know, where does Cisco sit in this environment? The big shift that I think was really highlighted for me last year, going to Cisco Live is, it used to be most of what I'm managing, I control. >> Right. >> Today, most of the network and most of the environments that I'm in charge of? They're outside of my purview. >> Right. >> With doing that multi cloud world. >> Right. >> So how I make sure that I don't, you know, get myself in trouble with the CFO? >> Right. >> Or have unexpected things come up? >> Right, right, yeah. I came through a software acquisition called CliQr Technologies and CliQr Technologies is that one tool that gives you that experience and allows you to see cloud cost. So cloud cost from a hourly, metered perspective but also from a budgeting perspective. And we're adding additional components into our platform that gives you like true cost for all of your compute, all of your network, your storage, your services like Lambda and then also makes recommendations on the instant sizes that you need to use. We have policies like suspension policies that help our customers to save on their cloud bill. In a lot of ways, the life cycle management aspect of applications is something that differentiates us from other cloud management platforms. >> Talk about the cost side and the cost of ownership. I've always been talking about the cloud as the TCO or total cost of ownership, changes a bit. What are some of the challenges that you've seen the customers having that you guys are helping with? When you look at integrating security, networking and application performance and management? Cause it's not siloed anymore. >> Yeah. >> They're integrating together. >> That's right. >> This is a new dynamic. >> Right, right. >> What's state of the art? What are you guys doing? You guys address that? What are some of the customer challenges? Just, what's your thoughts on that area? >> Yeah so most of the time there are two basic challenges to this. One is, you know bringing the cloud economy into the private cloud consumption is something that our platform does. And then also being able to visualize all the costs. Helping our customers to make good decisions about what types of workloads run where best and whether it's, so we enable, obviously, VMs as well as cloud native, container based, micro services to co-exist in a single platform so we'll deploy VMs and containers in a hybrid fashion. >> Yeah. >> Or we'll deploy them into the same and we'll give you the utilization of those workloads based on dollar amounts, based on run time and also based on the type of workload. >> So here's the curve ball question for you. Now multi cloud comes into the equation? >> Yeah. >> How do you guys deal with that because workload, in some cases, I've heard from customers that refactoring those workloads is a problem. >> Right. >> So if I'm going to run true multi cloud, I'm going to have multiple clouds, I need networks to know, have smarts, around where I want to put that and do I want it in different geography maybe or region? So the network has the intelligence on a lot of things. >> Right. >> How are you guys addressing the multi cloud component? >> Yeah, yeah. >> With workload? Without refactoring? >> Yeah. So because we can compose applications that consist of both VMs and containers, right? One of the projects, just one of the use cases that we worked on with our relationship with Google was to, from cloud center, to deploy cloud native workloads in GKE that would navigate and basically traverse the VPN network to go back into the on prem target in order to access a database that was kind of a legacy database using an API URL. So that whole workflow was something that we solved for with our reference architecture so, you know, we obviously have the portfolio of products that allows our customers to take advantage of both hardware, software and networking and security and monitoring all in one reference architecture. >> A lot of opportunities for you guys. I think you're positioned well. We've covered you guys on the DevNet, DevNet Create. >> Yeah. >> You're seeing the cloud center, this dashboard kind of model of looking at the operations side, the development side. A lot of changes. Really kind of fit right into your wheelhouse. >> Yes, yeah. >> I think the Kubernetes policy knobs, it's a big story that I'm walking away with on this trip and saying, wow, policy sounds like a networking thing. Networking guys love policy. >> Yeah. >> If you can automate it? >> Yeah, that's right. >> And managed the costs? >> Yeah. >> It's a good thing. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for coming on, appreciate your insight. >> Thank you, thank you very much. >> CUBE coverage here, day three continues. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Stay with us for wall to wall coverage here at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with more, after this short break. (upbeat techno music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud-Native computing foundation and its ecoystem partners. >> Everyone welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage here live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the content and the analysis, opinion, getting all the data, sharing that with you, three days of wall-to-wall coverage, we're in day three winding down, great event. Our next guest is one of the stars of the show here, original Kubernetes, a pioneer, Joe Beda, also the Kube founder at Heptio, recently sold to VMware in acquisition. Startup only what, two years old? >> Yeah, about two years. >> About two years. Welcome back to theCUBE, great to see you. >> Thanks for having me. >> Google. Great work you've done with Craig and with pioneering Kubernetes, Heptio startup. >> Yep, yep. >> Got taken off the table as you were ramping up. Congratulations! >> Thank you so much! It's been a little bit of a wild ride, I can tell you that. >> So first question for you is, I don't want to get into the whole VMware thing, we're going to hit that up in VMworld next year. But as you look at the ecosystem of Kubernetes, I mean, you've got to be looking at this sayin, "Hey, we knew this was going to be big." You guys have been running it with Borg and where that came from in the DNA. The magic wand almost was kind of passed out. Hey, this happened! It's kind of happening in a big way. What's your reaction? How do you feel at an emotional level? What's the vibe going on in your mind right now? >> I mean, I look at this and it blows my mind. I think we knew that we had a possibility with Kubernetes to do something big, we could feel it. I don't think we ever expected this, to be honest. The thing, though, that I think surprises me, and it was both about building startup and building a company, but also seeing the community grow, is that every time you hire a new person to do a startup, every time you have somebody join the community and start contributing, it's like it's another cylinder in the engine. And it really starts taking it in directions that you had no idea it was going to to go into. And so, I look around here and this is a product of a community. This is not a product of any single company, any single set of folks. I mean, you start things snowballing and interesting things happen, but it really is a group effort. >> It's so hard to do a startup. You know, I've done a lot of startups. We've done a lot of interviews with startups. It's hard. You got to start a company, you got to do all that legal work, then you've got to get the momentum, and it's capped off by the validation, certainly by VMware, who announced heavily at the VMworld, Pat Gelsinger said that Kubernetes is the dial tone. (laughs) And I'm like, okay, I guess. We were talking earlier, it's the ethernet. I've called it the TCP/IP. So, all the analogies come to this enabling kind of capability. And that's where we see a lot of the value. Where do you see the opportunities for the ecosystem to innovate. I mean, getting some clear visibility around the stability. But now value is starting to get created. What's your thoughts on value creation? Where are some areas that are ripe? >> Yeah, well, I think a couple of things. I think we're at the point now where it's about how do we bring these technologies to new people, to new audiences, to folks who might not have heard about it, don't quite get it. How do we make this stuff more relevant to them? So we're moving out of this technology-focus phase, into this phase that's focused on solution and value that's delivered. And this isn't always about innovation and building on top. Some of it is about different ways to do it, and also just, you know, having these ideas just permeate, right? And as technologists, we build on incredibly complicated technology. We look at, say, something like AWS. If you were to approach that brand new without any idea of the history there, it would be incredibly intimidating. But it's been around long enough, it's grown organically, that everyone's like, "Oh yeah, I totally understand all that stuff." It just takes time sometimes for these technologies to become understood, to become part of the fabric of what people assume the technical skill set is. And I think that's a big part of what we're seeing starting to happen now, too. >> Joe, I want to get your viewpoint. When I think about the last ten, fifteen years, the whole discussion of hybrid cloud, multicloud, portability, even thinking about things from a VMware context, or from a cloud-computing context, it seems like we have a lot of false starts and false expectations about, you know, we've listed Pat Gelsinger and Andy Jassy and others who talk about the three laws of the cloud. We're not changing physics. And Kubernetes is super-important for multicloud, but portability was kind of thrown out there. I want to get you to help us tease out what it is, what it isn't, and how do you see multicloud today? >> Yeah, so I mean, first, on the topic of false starts, there's this popular narrative that, oh, it's going to be this, now this is the hot thing, now it's this. And the reality is that main frames are still around. Technologies don't disappear, it's an additive type of thing. So it's not like, say for example, Kubernetes or Serverless or machine learning, right? It's all of those things working together and I think, if you look at it in that way, it doesn't feel like a false start. It just seems like we're adding more different techniques, more technologies onto the pile. In terms of where I see this stuff going, I think multicloud and compatibility do go hand-in-hand. From the very start, we never wanted to pretend that Kubernetes was going to be this magic layer that was going to make differences between different environments disappear. What we did want to do, though, was actually find the commonalities and minimize the extra differences that didn't need to be there. And so a lot of times, when I talked to customers, I don't say, "Hey, don't use this special service in this cloud." I don't tell them that. What I do say, though, is, "If you are going to start using those things, "do it in an eyes-open type of way. "Understand the trade-offs, "understand why you're doing it" versus just willy-nilly adopting technologies cuz they look nice and shiny, and that's what you want to do, right? So I think, whether you're adopting Kubernetes, whether you're adopting a specific cloud technology, whether you're moving to cloud versus actually building automatable infrastructure on prem, make sure that you're thoughtful about how you enter those types of decisions. >> The way the feedback we hear from people here on theCUBE this week and other places as well, is, pick a problem to solve. Don't boil all of the ocean, get in there, use Kubernetes for what you think you can nail a problem on, iterate from there. That's the common theme. Now as you guys pivot over to VMware, they've been investing a lot in their strategy also with AWS, RDS is now on VMware, they'd look at Kubernetes as a great opportunity to bridge on-premises and cloud. So it's clear to see why they like it. Explain for the folks watching who are fans of you and Craig and Heptio, what's next for you guys? You joined VMware, you just closed the deal, you're principal engineer at VM where you're in the business unit side, share some of the specifics that you can on what's going to happen next. >> Yeah, I think it's too early for me to speak on sort of a grand strategy across VMware. I think I'm still mapping things out and understanding things. What I can talk about is the way that we were thinking about the market from Heptio's point of view. And every indication that I've seen that this is actually very, very compatible for VMware. A lot of the keynotes that you saw here at KubeCon Show, that adoption curve, where we're in the early phase versus the early majority, that type of thing, and I think there's some truth to that. But I also think that there's an axis to that, that actually isn't shown up there, around the different personas that you see adopt different technologies inside of the enterprise organization. And so the strength of somebody like VMware, and I think the early adopters for things like Kubernetes, are that operator persona. And we're seeing an evolution of that persona as it starts to come to grips with the world of the cloud. We're moving from a place where things are ticket-based, human intensive, to how do we move to API-driven, policy-drive types of things, right? And so that's obviously where the cloud is. But how do we take those learnings, how do we take those lessons and actually apply those things on problems? And so our goal from Heptio's point of view, and I think it's incredibly well-aligned with VMware, and an enormous opportunity, is taking the VMware-faithful, the folks who do go to VMworld, that have built careers on that solution, how do we help them move their career forward, move their positioning forward in a way that doesn't eliminate their jobs, but actually helps them be smart in a modern world where cloud is actually part of the landscape. >> We had Aparna on from Google, and you know Aparna from your Google days, and she was making a comment about these new personas, new opportunities, new jobs that are opening up based on Kube. Okay, great, we see some of that. And then we've done rift on the idea that Kubernetes also is a uplift for existing roles: system architect, Network Guy, Server Guy, and then the VMware operator that had been wearing virtual machines, this is a lift for them. Talk about what specifically is going to get them jazzed up, is it the policy knobs on Kubernetes, what's going to really appeal to people below Kubernetes and what's really going to appeal to the developers above Kubernetes? >> Well, for centralized IT within an organization, cloud has been a challenge, right? If, I'm not thinking of a specific customer, but it's not insane to think about something like a developer who wants to write an app, they have to file a ticket, it can take anywhere from two weeks to three months to get stuff provisioned, right? And they're sitting there twiddling their thumbs waiting to actually get that stuff ready. Meanwhile, they take their credit card, go to a cloud, get a machine up and running within 30 seconds, and get their app shipped. So while they're waiting on that ticket, they can get that app shipped, and then they dare their manager to deny the credit card charge when it comes due. That is a challenge for centralized IT which oftentimes has not had any competition. Now, all of a sudden, they find themselves in a situation where they're competing with cloud for the hearts and minds of their own customers, for their developers. And different organizations have reacted to this in different ways. Some of them had said, we're just going to explode out IT and actually say to different business units, "You own your own destiny." But, depending on the enterprise, depending on the goals, depending on their requirements around regulatory needs, around policy, around cost controls, around mobility of developer skills across the organization, that may or may not work for them. And so, for me, the bridge forward for that centralized IT, is really one of giving them the power tools so they can actually serve their customers better in a world where cloud exists. >> Yeah. Their jobs! That's their job to serve the business. >> Well, I mean, the bar has been raised, right? And so we want to help them meet that challenge. >> Awesome. >> Joe, I want to get your thoughts on this growing ecosystem. I said in our open this morning, we've been looking for the last five years or so. Where is that independent, cloud-computing show? And sitting here with 8 thousand people, and another 2 thousand people are in the hallways or on the wait list and things like that. It's here, and there's all of these projects into multiple communities come together. How does it feel that Kubernetes, was it kind of the first domino to help tip something broader with CloudNative? >> I mean it feels really good, to be honest. I think one of the things that we saw Heptio as, and I think VMware is actually in a great position also, is to be a neutral party that really is on the side of customers as they enter this complex world where they're dancing with elephants that are the big cloud providers. And I think that there is an enormous appetite for customers to actually have trusted partners in that world. Now, with respect to the conference, I think, what I love doing is I love being on the floor here, I love talking to people, I love going to the session tracks. That's where I think the heart of this conference is. Some of the contributor community days that happened on Monday that don't get a lot of coverage, the big headlines are one thing but there really is an undercurrent of community that's happening in this conference that is really something pretty special. >> I think that's a great point, and, at least what I've seen that's contributed, you know, the Envoy Group, tomorrow there's the Operators Group, this is not a monolithic community, it's not like, look, I've been at VMworld for years. It was about virtualization and primarily a single product from a single company and everything that wrapped around it. This is not a vendor doing it, there's all of these. I talked to the people that all they care about is Helm, we talked about all these different pieces, and many of them tie into what was going on at Kubernetes, but there's just so much diversity, and it's a common ground for everybody to work together. >> And I think, this is one of the things that I think has been interesting about the CNCF is that there is no, there is an idea that we want to create a set of projects that work well together, but there also is the realization that there is no one way to skin the cat, there is no one way to solve a problem. So there is room for projects to disagree, there's room for projects to experiment, there is room for folks to try and find their audience and be successful. >> That's the modern upgrade in my mind, to, not going against the open source ethos but also innovating with it, You're balancing commercial so you just, I think they've got to apply this upstream concept called CNCF where the downstream benefits for commercialization, you can still do the open source community thing while having an impact downstream to IT and just regular developers. This is the trend we see at Enterprise when we talk to the customers, we talk to other people, IT has been outsourced for decades. Now there has to be a competitive advantage, and we have the competition thing that you pointed out. And the smart CIO CX's are bringing developers in to create a competitive advantage, and it's a new reset. And, not throwing away networks, they're not throwing away compute and storage. They're going to change it. And I think this is where the real tailwind is. Do you agree with that or what's your thoughts? >> The way I like to think about it is that, and I'm using company names here as an example, but I think there is this race between Tesla learning how to become a car company versus, say, Ford or GM learning how to become a software company, right? And that dynamic is playing itself out across every single industry. And I think there is not a CEO or CIO or board out there that doesn't realize that the way for us to be relevant in the future is to turn software into, not just a cost-center and something we deal with, but something that becomes a fundamental advantage and driver of our business. >> Every industry: media, software! We're a software company that happens to do media, with theCUBE. You're totally right, it's just like-- >> Any industry. This is why Amazon's getting into grocery stores. >> It's integration. This is a completely new horizontal dynamic with a little bit of special machine learning at the outlay. >> We're moving into a software-defined world, for sure. >> Joe, been great to have your commentary here on theCUBE. Thanks for sharing. Congratulations on the acquisition. Super outcome, the numbers floating out there. It's pretty large, good deal. We have no comment. (laughs) >> Open source! >> Read DCSE C file. >> Open source business models are changing, but the value is still the same. Those who create the value can extract it. That's the ethos of open source, of course theCUBE as well. Thanks for watching. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break.

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back everyone, it's theCUBE's live coverage, day three of three days of coverage here at KubeCon 2018, and CloudNativeCon put on by the Linux Foundation and CNCF. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Our next guest is Hussein Khazaal, who's the Vice President of Marketing and Partners of Nuage Networks. Thanks for coming on, good to see you! >> Thanks, John, good to see you. >> Love that shirt, automation... >> Yeah. >> That's the theme. >> That is! (chuckles) >> Cloud native, cloud operations, thanks for coming on. So take a minute just to talk about what you guys are doing with the show, what's the key value proposition you guys are part of, what conversations you're having. >> Right so, for Nuage we basically deliver a software-based virtual networking solution. And a lot of our customers appreciate the value it brings because they have multi cloud environments, they have workloads in on-prem. Those are mixed, some VM, some bare metal, some containers, they have workloads in public cloud, and what we enable them with our software is to stitch all that together using an API-driven networking model that has policy applied to the workload, and you have that mixed workload environment with network policy and security built into that platform. And that's kind of where we help not really break what Kubernetes brings to developers, but maintain that, giving the IT and infrastructure folks the ability to have visibility control and maintain that. >> We were just talking with a partner from Google, we always talk to the same companies, so some of the senior people at AWS, and all the clouds. Obviously cloud operations is what everyone wants, that's the preferred environment, whether you're on-premises or in the cloud, Edge is now on the horizon. Storage, networking and compute is still the core, it's just a little bit different. But there's new jobs that are emerging around Kubernetes, you see the job board, but it's also revitalizing older roles, the network guy, the storage guy, the server guy, traditional IT enterprises are seeing those roles transform. So I got to ask you, as you guys are in the middle of all the networking side, how do see that person, that role, that piece of the puzzle in an IT enterprise change with Kubernetes? >> Absolutely, I mean, the one thing that we had some of our customers do is that these roles are no longer defined by a specific, you have to have these mixed skills, you have to understand what the developer needs as an infrastructure person, and the developer needs what kind of tools that they need to implement so you can do your job, and that's why Kubernetes, and when you're talking about networking and security, you have to understand Linux, you have to understand programming, to be able to give the developers the tools that they need to develop and understand the requirements and then by the same token, they need to make sure that from an intercom perspective, you need to understand, you still need the visibility, you still need control, right? And that balance can only be achieved if you kind of do the exchange roles, right? You get to work with the developers, and then the developers need to look at infrastructure and that's kind of where you stick at Kubernetes, and with what Red Hat is doing with OpenShift, and a lot of the vendors in terms of integrating with CNI, to be able to plug in and tap in and be able to deliver that security and that relief. >> I get what you're saying. I think you've got a great thread there that I want to pull on a little bit. So, I think back at networking over the last few decades, we used to call it multi-vendor, now we call it multi-cloud, we've been talking about automation forever, but it's different now. So, I think that thread you were going on is part of that answer, but explain why now, multi cloud and automation, what's that's real about that compared to what we were talking about the dominant, hardware-led environment that we lived in for decades? >> Absolutely, I mean just you look at how people develop, look at containers, the lifetime of a container is very short compared to like a monolithic application, things that are more dynamic. Some enterprises need to scale up operations, and then that's where they kind of... So early on it was more like a developer testing things in their lab and when you go into production and the rate and the scale at which you operate, dictates that, you know, look, I need to work in public cloud, I need to work with bare metal, and then that, the amount of the infrastructure guys meet that demand otherwise those enterprises are not going to be able to serve their end customers. And that's why they're kind of working with us, and even the community's coming together to address these, and we're looking with-- for performance with the vendors and then even for networking and that's what's driving that. >> Yeah, I want to get your reaction, I was talking to somebody here at the show and they said "Kubernetes is a reset for SDN." >> Yep, it is! I mean the thing is, Kubernetes as it is is perfect, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel, right? There's a lot of adaption from developers' infrastructure. What we're trying to do is build around it, you'll see orchestration on top, you'll see networking, this is such a good thing that everybody is, and you can see by the level of attendance, the level of interest, and engagement, now what we're trying to do is like grow the operation. What are the problems that are left for an enterprise to solve? And that's the multi-cloud piece, right? How do you do policy, network and security policy in that hybrid environment, right? For example, you look at a retailer, they have users using mobile apps, they have remote stores, they have data centers, they have public cloud, and then they're using containers (mumbles) how do you stitch all that together? And that's for us, the challenge that we're addressing. >> And Kubernetes gives you a lot of policy knobs, how are you guys seeing that opportunity? 'Cause that's where people see that kind of piece. >> The three letters, API, right? This API makes integration such an easy thing to do. And then we have obviously, using a CNI plug-in from a (mumbles) perspective, to be able to work in that eco-system and deliver what we do. We have, obviously you guys know that in OpenStack, they're running Kubernetes inside OpenStack and then you have people running Kubernetes on bare metal, right? But it's still Kubernetes and that's how we're able to serve our customers to kind of stitch between between those different stories. >> Alright, Hussein, let's talk about security. So, you know, when containers first came out it was all this argument of how do I architect it? Do I have to shove the thing in a VM, or now is it a micro VM? How do I make sure I ensure security? What's working well? What do we still have a lot of work to do in the security space? >> I think if you look at the three areas: visibility, protection and then the third one is dynamic further response, right? So you can't protect what you can't see and visibility is kind of the first thing that we as networking, because we move packets around, can deliver to the enterprise. The second one is isolation, is that everything you have in a pod is contained. Now between pods, if you're running in public cloud, as a bank, you may want to encrypt that traffic, right? You need to do some level of protection, whether that's in-flight protection or separation between them. The third one is, as you're moving things around and you see bad things happen, you need to not wait for a person, because you're looking at scale, like thousands of these instances that are moving around. The network is intelligent enough to act based on rules that you give it to, like if there's a threat, we'll just quarantine the source or remove traffic. This combination is what's missing and that's kind of what a lot of... >> I think that's an opportunity that's clear, but most people look at networking and say "oh, let's move it from A to B, point A to point B." It's now so much more than that, it's more headroom. What is the specific headroom on top of that? Because there's a lot of security opportunities, things are moving around, you can see the bad guys and all kinds of different threats, but not just moving packets, it's other things. What's the other key things that people should pay attention to when really designing these architectures? >> So the one thing, obviously, when you're doing things in a lab, you're not really going by scale. You're not looking at throughput, latency, things like that that's part of networking and that's kind of the work we're doing with some of the, like Mellanox, you know? On terms of providing high-throughput, providing low latency for specific applications. The other one is, how do you provide that intelligence? Like all this data has to go somewhere to be processed, to work with other security solutions. Those are the two things that maybe people don't give that much thought early on, but as you scale your operations, they become real bottlenecks for you. >> So I want to get a chance for you to get a plug in for the company, DevOps. This infrastructure, this code has kind of been kicking around since the beginning. It's actually happening, a programmable infrastructure. You know, at the app layer for coding, but now network's programmable. What are you guys doing in that area? How are you guys extending that value proposition to your customers? Why are they going with you guys? Why are you guys winning? What's the one thing that people should know about in order to come to you guys? >> Flexibility and openness, that's the key one. We are hardware agnostic, any switch, any network, any hypervisor, any CMS, content management system, that's our focus is our networking and security. Similar to Kubernertes, you can run Kubernetes anywhere. That's how we provide networking and we have an open eco-system that gives you scale, performance and security without really limiting your options. And the thing is, we have all, going forward, like people can do stuff on premises today, they may move to cloud, we don't lock you in to one architecture. The architecture's fluid and it could be whatever. You may see the future one way today, but in a couple of months as we all know, things change. >> Why would someone call you guys up? What's the paying point? What's the value? When will they know, oh okay I've got to get Nuage involved? >> Scale, multi-cloud, that's basically it. If you're looking for multi-cloud, multiple workloads and you're running things at scale, you need to talk to us because that's basically where we help you solve it. >> Hussein, talk a little bit about how Edge fits into it too. You know when you think back to even before cloud, think back to the XSPs. Networking securities have always been the choke point, physics still rules the day. We know it's only getting more complicated with Edge, more surface area for security, but I have to imagine that applies into what you're doing. >> Absolutely, I mean we've done, so as you decompose these things and you move them apart, your attack services increase, right? So the security is, as you move, those communication channels have to be protected somehow. We have an extension which is basically part of getting into the Edge, adding more intelligence at the Edge, because that traffic is coming from the Edge to the core, it goes to public cloud. And being able, as a networking solution, to steer that traffic securely using encryption or whatever have you in terms of visibility, provides those enterprises with a secure, sound platform to really do their business. >> What's your take on the show? 8,000 people up from 4,000. We were comparing it earlier to Adobe's Reinvent. A rising tide, is it a tsunami? >> Absolutely, I mean I couldn't believe the number when they said it because obviously we saw they'd sold out the tickets, but coming here to see all that many people and there have been earlier shows and the growth is tremendous. >> Well thanks for coming for coming on and sharing your insight and congratulations on the scale, we love it. Data, scale, programmable networks, it's all part of the new evolution of cloud native. It's on premises, it's in the cloud, multiple workloads, multiple clouds. This is the choice everyone has, they're rebuilding. Don't forget networking compute and storage, it's still a Holy Trinity there. Congratulations, thanks for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> More live coverage here at theCUBE, here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, day three of three days of coverage, this is theCUBE, we'll be right back after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's ecosystem partners. [techno Music] >> Okay, welcome back everyone. It's theCUBE's live coverage in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Stu Miniman. Breaking down all the action. Talking to all the thought leaders, all the experts, all the people making it happen. We're here with Aparna Sinha who's the group product manager, Kubernetes, Google Cloud. Also one of the power women of the Cloud at Google, according the Forbes. I wrote the story. Great to see you again. >> Thank you, great to be here with you. >> Thanks for coming on. >> CUBE alumni. Great to have you on. I want to get your prospective. One when you've seen a lot of action, certainly overseeing the group engineering team at Google and all the Kubernetes action. A lot of contribution, a lot of activity, that you guys are leading. >> Yes. >> And quite frankly enabling and contributing to the community. So, congratulations and thanks for that work. Kubernetes certainly looking good. People are pumped up. >> Very much. >> 8,000 people. A lot of activity. A lot of new things around that you guys are always kind of bringing into, the Geo, knative, a lot things. You gave a key note. What's your focus here this year? What's the message from Google? >> Yeah, well as you pointed out, this is the largest KubeCon ever. 8,000 people, 2,000 on the wait list. And people are telling me here that this is the... This is here to stay, right? It's in the early majority going to the mainstream very much like you kind of think about virtualization was 10 years ago. So that's the momentum that I'm seeing here, that I'm hearing here. My keynote was about the community. Thanking the community first of all. So I talked about how open-source really, success in contingent on contribution. And so, I started by showing the contribution over the last one year, the companies that are contributing. And 80% of contributions are by at least 10 entities. One of them is individual contributors. 40% percent I think was Google, which is still staggeringly high. And then the next highest was Red Hat. And so I think in many of the keynotes, we've been calling out the contributors because it's really important. 1.13, the 13th release of Kubernetes shipped last week. A lot of stability, a lot of GA features, and the uptake in the enterprise. The other thing I called out was just the amount of job opportunity in Kubernetes >> Yeah >> 230% growth in the last year. You see here so many customers that are here to talk about their experience. But also they're here to hire. >> Yeah. And there recruiters on the floor, so it's been I think a huge economic value add. And we feel very proud of that. >> Yeah, Aparna, great point. We've been talking about the end users. I always loved... There's a job board right outside the hall here and it's just covered. Big giant white board there. Bring us inside a little bit. I mean Google's always fascinating people. What's the hiring situation there? What's your team lookin' like? Is anybody smart enough to actually go work there? >> Google, I think we've been very, very fortunate in that we've had the original board team that started the Kubernetes project. And so we have a really, really deep bench because we've been running containers since the beginning. So now 15 years of experience with that, which many people tell me, I think that the reason that Kubernetes is so successful is because it's not new actually, right? >> Yeah >> It's been tried and true at scale. So, we have quite a bit of that, but we've been building this community and a lot of folks have been hired in through the community-- >> Yeah >> into Google. And really amazing, amazing people. So yeah. >> The thing about we had Brian Grant on yesterday and Tim Hockin -- Yes. >> Who was talking about some of those early board days. >> Yes. I want to ask you your point of about the hiring because I think this is a interesting dynamic. Open-source is key to your strategy. We've talked many times about how you guys are committed to open source, but what's interesting is not just net new jobs are available, we're seeing a revitalization around traditional roles like the network engineer under Kubernetes. Looking at the policy knobs that your folks pointed out that's... They think it's underutilized. And then on top of Kubernetes, new things are going on that's getting the app kind of server guy-- >> Yeah. >> Kind of energized. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of enabling a lot of thing, actions that's transforming existing jobs. >> That's right. >> And bringing new ones. >> Talk about that dynamic because you see it from both sides. >> Yes >> You've got SREs, site reliable engineers. >> Yes >> You've got developers. But, Now enterprises are now trying to adopt... >> That's right >> You guys are hitting that note. Talk about that dynamic. >> That's right, so I've been talking to a lot of customers here, it's been non-stop. I've not been able to attend any talks or keynotes. And I'm seeing two things. One there's the kind of operations now called platform teams. And they're under tremendous pressure. They're doing incredible work. Incredible. And they're energized. They're really... So one of the customers I was talking to was moving from VMs on EC2 to containers on GCE on Kubernetes. Google Cloud. And in the last one year, they looked... Honestly, they looked miserable because they have worked so hard in doing that transfomation. Turning their application from a VM-based application into containers. But you could also see that they were so happy and so successful because of the impact that it's had. And so and then I asked them so like, "What is driving that?" This is different customer. What is driving that? And it's really... As soon they get that environment up and running, and this is a large enterprise bank that I was talking to, this other one, their developers are just all over it. And they have, they have hundreds of services running within six months. And they're like, "Well we just got this platform up. "We still have to figure how we're going to upgrade it." But it's... So those are the two constituents. The developers are happy. >> The integration and delivery changes the makeup of how teams work. So that's one thing we're seeing here. And the other one is just scale. >> Yeah. >> So that seems to be the area. Now I got to ask you, as you guys look at... As you guys are doing the work on the enterprise side, you guys, I know you're working hard, I talk to Jennifer a lot, Jennifer Lynn, as well and we've talked before, are used to doing the work. But there's still a lot more work done. Where do you guys see the work that this community value opportunities for participants in the eco-system to fill white spaces? Where are the value lines starting to be drawn? Can you comment? >> Yeah, so I see two or three different areas. One of the areas is of course hardening. And that's why Janet Quill gave the keynote about "Kubernetes is boring and that's a good thing". And that's been something we've been working on for the last year at least. Adding a lot more security capabilities. Adding a lot more just moving everything to GA, right? Adding a lot more hooks in the enterprise storage and into enterprise networking. Building up the training and building up the partners that'll do the implementations. All of those things I think are very, very healthy. >> Yeah. >> Cause I see them. You probably talked to the CNCF. They're helping a lot with the certification and the training. So that's one piece of enterprise adoption. I think the other piece is the developer experience. And that's where a lot of the talks here, my key note as well, I demoed Istio and Knative on top of GKE. The developer experience is ultimately this whole thing. My perspective, this whole thing is about making your developers more productive. And developers have been driving this transition. Again going back to those customer examples. So that's getting a lot easier. >> Yeah, Aparna, I'd love you to talk a little about Knative. So, I know the excitement is there. Products only been around for five months. I remember at your show last summer it was announce and roll. Trying to understand exactly what it is. It's like, wait, wait is serverless going to kill Kubernetes? And how does this fit? How does this work with all the various services in the Cloud? Maybe just understand where we are. >> Right. >> What it is, what it isn't. >> Right. >> Again, so the heritage of serverless, I'm going to go back to Google, right? We have the first serverless offering in the world like 10 years ago. And so that's based on containers. Underneath it's based on containers. That's why we knew that with Kubernetes that's the right foundation for building serverless. And it actually, I think, we sort of held back for the longest time. And a couple of years ago there were one, two, and then 15, and then 17 serverless frameworks that just kind of all popped up around Kubernetes, on top of Kubernetes. I remember the first demo in the community. Here's this serverless piece. And at some point, a little bit over a year ago we decided that actually serverless is really important to our customers, to our users. The majority of Kubernetes tends to be on-prem, actually. And so it's important to them to have serverless capabilities on-prem. So then we need to make sure it's stable and it's something that's standard. >> I think it's a really important point... I talked to some people that are in the serverless ecosystem that is living on a AWS and they say, "You can't build serverless on-prem "because then you're racking "and stacking and dealing with it." And it's not... We know there's servers underneath of it and it's just system calls and how we consume that. But maybe explain the nuances to how this is important and we understand it. >> Yeah. >> There's not like a solution out there. >> Yeah. >> Server meshes, there's a lot of options out there right now. >> Yeah. >> So. >> A lot of things, because this is an open-source community, a lot of things come from the users. So when the user says, "You know what, actually need "the serverless capability on-prem. "Why? "Because I've got this developer group and I don't want "them to have to muck with the infrastructure. "I don't want them to have access to the infrastructure. "I want to just give them a simple interface "where they're going to write their applications "and the rest is taken care of for them." Right? And then I want to be able to bill them on a per-use basis. So, it's... Yeah there's someone managing the server. Someone building actually the severless capability and that's the platform team. That's the guys that I talked about that are working very hard these days happily. But, working very hard. >> And these are the new personas, by the way-- >> Yeah. >> In the enterprise. This is new kind of new re-architecting of how enterprises are creating value. These new platform teams. >> Right. >> This is the opportunity. Well I got to ask you, you know everyone that watches theCUBE knows I'm a big fan of scale. Love Amazon scale. I love Google scale. I love the enterprise market. And I want to get your thoughts... I want you to take a minute to explain the culture at Google Cloud. Because it's a separate building. Give you an opportunity to share. But you guys are working hard to go after the enterprise. It's not like a new thing. But the enterprise is interesting. It's not so much the best technology that wins. It's grit. It's almost like a street fight. You got to go out. You got to win those battles. Get all the work done. Hit those features. You can't just roll into town and say we've got great technology. We're Google. You guys recognize this. And I want you to share the culture you guys are building and how you guys are attacking the enterprise. What's the guiding principles? What are some of the core tenants? >> Yeah, yeah. So you know my entire life has been spent in enterprise software. >> Yeah. >> I do think that enterprises respect Google Cloud. I work very closely with them. And they respect certainly the engineering prowess. Like, "Wow. I need that." >> Yeah. Right? Especially you see all these enterprises that are being transformed by technology. Their industry is being transformed by technology. Whether that's in transportation, or it's in retail, or it's in media. And they want the best. They want the latest. Right? And they also don't necessarily have the skills, like you said, right? So they're looking for a partner that'll both help them scale up but also provide them all of that guidance. And the one thing you asked about culture at Google. I think we are a revolutionary company. We are willing to do lots of things. Lots of things that you wouldn't expect. And that's why you saw GK on-prem from my team, right? The first, kind of, Kubernetes on-prem offering from a cloud provider. Managed by a cloud provider. And that's really... I mean we've seen tremendous, tremendous interest in that. Tremendous feedback from our users and new customers. People that hadn't thought about it. Hadn't thought about Google, necessarily before that have said, "Wow. If you are going to come and help me on-prem "with this, I'm ready. "Give it to me now. "Because I trust you and I know I want to go to the Cloud. "So it's the right step for me. "You have the right incentives." Right? "And you're the open cloud, which is important to me "because I may want to be multi cloud." So that's the piece that is... >> You got the enterprise chops. You've spent your whole career there. I know Jennifer as well. >> Yes. >> A lot of people you guys have hired. >> Right. >> The good news is you've got a market that's changing. So you don't have to come in and replicate the old IT. So that's an opportunity at Google. How are you guys attacking that, that beachhead? Because you have the check. What's the vibe? What's the grit? What's it like... How you guys attacking the enterprise? What do you see as opportunities knowing the enterprise of old-- >> Yeah >> As it shifts to new kind of method? >> Yeah. >> What's the core? >> I think about the problems the users are having. I think about what is the problem the customer is facing. And so... And then breaking that down and solving that for them. I mean that's what's important, right? And so some of the problems I see is one they need a developer platform. And the developer platform sometimes cannot be in the Cloud. When I talk to large financial institutions, there's so much compliance and regulation and things that have to be on-prem. That it has to be on-prem. And they try to move to the Cloud and some things will do it. But the majority, like 90% is on-prem. And so they need an agile development environment and there's no holding it back. Because, like I said, there's all this transformation. Their developers need that environment today. So you have to provide that. That's one use case. We provide an on-prem development and agile development environment. Best in class. Your developers are super happy. Your business is going to do well. The other thing I see, and I see this a lot in retail, but also in hospitality at some of these very kind of brick and mortar enterprises is the edge. They need a solution at their edge location. Thousands, these are thousands of branch locations. We've even got this use case with Chick-fil-A, right? And a lot of times this is... A lot of different use cases, but a lot of time the common thing is that they're collecting data. They're doing some processing at that site and then they're doing further processing in the Cloud. And so it's a connected, but an intimately, it's not always connected.... Intimately connected environment. So that's the second big use case. Edge retail or just edge. There's so many... For me, it's one of the most exciting. There's so many examples of that. >> Awesome. >> Aparna, first of all, just so many goodness I want to say thank you to Google because everything from I heard at the show Google wasn't giving out swag because it actually went to charitable givings instead of spending that money. One of the things we always look is open-source is, how much more value is being created for the eco-system not just the vendor that started it. And it is a really tough balance. We've seen it fail many times. Do you step too far back? And how much do you engage? How do you strike that bound? For the last five to 10 years, we've been saying, "Where is the independent place where we can have that "conversation about cloud?" We think found it at this show. I mean we've been here for three years now. Google Cloud, phenomenal event. Our teams loves to be there, but this feels like overnight has turned into oh wait, here's the show we were looking at to have that conversation. To have that commons where we can come together and there's so many diversity of people, diversity of projects in here. Many which have very disconnected from original Kubernetes and everything, so. It's been fascinating to watch and have to imagine your team is... When you watch that first piece go and everything that's built around it. It's got to be amazing. >> My team loves this event. We have literally I think 300 people here. And a lot of them are core maintainers. Everybody is a contributor, but they are core maintainers of the Kubernetes project. The Istio project. The Knative project. And I think the best thing here is just interacting with our users. Because this is a developer, this is a developer conference, primarily. There's a lot of businesses here. >> Yeah >> With their kind of director level executives. But primarily it's an action-oriented hands-on audience. And you just... These customer meetings that I have, we review their architecture and we're like... It's an engineer to engineer conversation. >> Yep. >> And so how can we make that better? And sometimes they're contributing back and it makes the whole project better. >> Yeah. The thing, too, is it's an engineering, it's a developer conference, true. But what's interesting about that evolution as it modernizes, those end users are developers. >> That's right. >> And so the end user aspect of this show. >> That's right. >> Is the developer piece. >> That's right. >> It never used to be like that. Used to be COMDEX or some big event. >> Yeah. >> And then people just selling their stuff. >> Yeah. >> Doing business. The end user participation... >> Yes. >> Is not a consumption conversation, it's a contribution. >> Right. And end users are all over the spectrum of sort of really, really hands-on. Very, very smart to just give me something that works and I respect all of that, right? And we were actually very far here in terms of GKE. Giving you something that you really don't need to get in, that's fully managed, right? But then on the other hand we had Uber on stage earlier today in their keynote talking about how they've built all of this advanced capability on GKE. And that's a power user. That's using all their capabilities. Like custom additions and an operator. And it's just really gratifying I think for us to work with them and for us to see the user base as well as the community. So the ecosystem. Google. I thinks it's very important for us to have and create economic opportunity for our partners. And you'll see that with GKE on-prem. We're partnering heavily on that one. And you'll see that also in our marketplace. Our Kubernetes marketplace. So many of the companies that have come out of this ecosystem are now part of selling through Google Cloud. >> Aparna, thank you for your time. I know you've had to move some things around to come here. Great to have you on. I love your leadership at Google, it's phenominal. You've got the enterprise chops building out heavily over there. Congratulations. And for more CUBE interviews check out theCUBE dot net. You can check out Aparna's other good news. Of course search her name on Forbes. I wrote a story about her featuring her. Talking about her background and her passion. Always great to have her on theCUBE and get some commentary from Google. Of course, theCUBE is breaking down live coverage. Been there from the beginning of KubeCon and now CloudNativeCon, the Linux Foundation. Bringing you all the analysis and insight. Be back with more coverage after this short break. [Techno Music]

>> From Seattle, Washington, it's 'theCUBE' Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018, brought to you by 'redhat' The CloudNative computing foundation and it's ecosystem partners. (upbeat music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to live CUBE coverage here at Seattle for KubeCon, CloudNativeCon2018. I'm John Furrier. Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action here for CloudNative, trend, a lot of ecosystem partners, a lot of new developers, a lot of great open-source action in the cubes here covering it. We've been there from the beginning, our next guest and user, Max Schulze, Advisor and Founder of NBF, welcome to the CUBE, thanks for coming on. >> Thank-you, thank-you for having me. >> So tell me about what you're working on. You are doing something pretty compelling with Kubernetes and CloudNative, take a minute to explain what you do. >> Yeah actually, we are advising a very large energy utility in the Nordics and what we're trying to do with Openshift and Kubernetes is actually to shift loads between different data centers based on power availability. So if you have wind and solar power, you know that you only get energy when the wind is blowing so you really need to be able to match that load of the data center with the actually energy production which is quite challenging to be honest. >> Max you have different take on 'Follow-the-sun' that we used to talk about in IT I'm guessing, yes? >> Yes >> Take us inside a little bit, the sustainability is really interesting and how some of the power, you know, usage and heat and everything and maybe you can explain that a little bit before we get into the data. >> Of course, so generally how we got to a sustainable data center source was that in the Nordics you see a big growth of data centers in general so all the hyperscalers: Google, Microsoft, AWS. They are all coming to build data centers in Nordics. It's cold, power is cheap, you have lots of renewable energy available and we started to think 'Okay, but they have two problems essentially.' They generate a lot of heat, which is just emitted into the atmosphere so it's wasted, and the second problem is that they want 100% reliable power and reliable power you only get from nuclear, you get from gas, coal fire power plants not from renewables. So we looked into this, and we started to think about okay can we maybe get the heat out? Can we extract the heat from a data center and inject it into district heating grids and actually heat homes? With a hyperscale data center from Microsoft, 300 megawatts you can heat about 150,000 homes, that's quite significant. >> Yeah and how are you doing that? I mean I talked to a company once that was like 'Oh well we're going to, you know, we'll just distribute the servers different places and there will be ambient heat off of it.' But you're extracting the heat and sharing it. Explain that a little bit more. >> So most existing data center projects, they extract the heat out of the air but that's really inefficient. You get to about 100 degrees Fahrenheit which is not uh high quality heat. So what we want is 140 degrees Fahrenheit, about 60 degrees celsius, which means that we have to use liquid. So we have to use water in this case and we use a cooling system that is quite ironic from a start up in Germany called Cloud & Heat that uses hot water to cool servers. So the water really flows at a very very high speed through the data center and on it's way picks up a very low amount of temperature and we get out the temperature, we get out the water at 140 degrees Fahrenheit and we put it in at 120 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's quite, not a big difference, but it flows at a very high speed. >> So it makes it work? Makes the numbers work. >> Exactly. And so what's the home count again you mentioned one hyperscale data center, like a Microsoft data center powers heat for how many homes? >> About 150,000 homes from 300 megawatts worth of data center. >> And you guys put this into a grid so that's, does the location of the homes need to be nearby, is there a co-location kind of map or? >> Yeah actually, in order to do this we have to move data centers closer to cities. But luckily, data centers actually want to be closer to cities because your closer to peering points and one of the reasons why they usually can't come closer to cities is because power is not available near a city. So we um try, we can give them both. Right, they can come closer to the city and we can give them power, and we get the heat in return. So, so everybody wins. >> Yeah so I mean, a lot of the discussion we've had is the interaction between software and my data center infrastructure. You've got a story of software, with you know, actual like city underneath the infrastructure. Maybe you got to help explain how that was built out, what tools you're using and walk us through this all. >> So we originally started with Openstack, which was the first test because we need, in order to do this heat extraction we need to also steer really the software, the workloads that run on the data center because you know a chip only gets hot when the server actually does something so we really had to figure this out. We started with Openstack and then we started looking into load shifting which immediately brought us to Kubernetes and then Openshift because you can use the internal scheduler to basically force loads across different locations. We connect it to our energy systems, to our forecasting systems and to our heat load management systems and then basically push workloads around. Right now we have two sites where we test this and it's not as easy as it sounds. And we basically want to move workloads, concentrate them where we want, we have heat. So um yeah, Redhat is helping us a lot doing this but still it's not that easy. >> Yeah yeah, it's interesting. You know, I think back you know, virtualization was about you know, how can we drive some utilization and get some out? You really want to you know, concentrate and run things hot. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Quite inter- Alright tell us about your involvement in this ecosystem, you know, what brings you to the show this week, what do you get out of coming to a show like this? >> Yeah, actually I came because Redhat invited us to talk at the Openshift gathering at the beginning of the conference. And generally, we don't really have a commercial interest in making data centers or data infrastructure sustainable, we, we don't gain anything from that, but we believe it's necessary. If you look at the growth curve of data centers you can really see that they will consume more and more power, and then the power they consume is not compatible with renewable energy. So we are hoping that we can influence people and we come here to tell people our story and we actually get great feedback from most of the nerds. >> Well it's a great story. It's one of those things where you're starting to see data centers trying to solve these problems. It's great with the renewable energy, having that kind of success story is really huge. Um, You mentioned that data centers want to be close to cities. I got to ask the question, in Europe, well you've lived around a lot of places. Is there a more cloud city oriented, like is it London, you got Paris, you got... I know Amazon's got data centers in Ireland. Is there certain cities that are more CloudNative culture? How would you break down the affinity towards CloudNative? If you had to map Europe, which major countries and cities would you think are advanced, cloud thinking vs. tire kickers or you know, people just kind of just trying it? >> In Europe there is a region called the FLAP region, that's Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam and Paris. Those are where you have the highest concentration of data centers, but it terms of CloudNative adoption, I would say that probably in the UK you have the most adoption rates and in the Netherlands. Germany is always, I am German so I can say this, we are always a bit behind in terms of cloud technology because we're a bit scared and we don't know- >> You'll watch everyone test it out and then you guys will make it go faster. (john laughs) >> Maybe, maybe, maybe a bit more efficient but uh, generally I think the cloud adoption rate in Germany is the lowest and the UK and the Netherlands is the highest I would say, yeah. >> Awesome, well thanks so much. Congratulations on your success, we'll keep following you and when we're in Europe we're going to come by and say hello. Thanks for coming and sharing the stories. The CUBE, breaking down all the action at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. I'm John with Stu Miniman. Day 2, we got three days of wall to wall coverage. Thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and it's Ecosystem Partners. >> Well, everyone welcome back to theCube's live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Three days of coverage around the Cloud Native growth, around the Ecosystem around open source, and the role of micro servers in the cloud. Our next guest is Roland Barcia who's the IBM Distinguished Engineer for IBM's Hybrid Cloud. Welcome to theCube. >> Thank you, glad to be here. >> Thanks for joining us. Being a Distinguished Engineer of IBM is a pretty big honor so congratulations. >> Thank you. >> it means you got technical chops so we can get down and dirty if we want to. >> Sure. >> I want to get your take on this because a lot of companies in IT are transforming and then that's been called digital transformation, it's happening and cloud has developed scale. And the wish list if you had the magic wand that could make things do better is actually happening. Supernetting's actually creating some goodness that if you had the magic wand, if I asked that question three years ago, if you had a magic wand what would an environment look like? Seamless operations around the cloud, so it's kind of happening. How are you guys positioned for this? Talk about the IBM cloud, what you're doing here, and how you see this cloud native market exploding. It's almost 8,000 people here up from 4,000 last year. >> Yeah, that's a great question I think. I work a lot with our enterprise clients. I'm part of what's called the IBM Cloud Garage, so I'm very customer facing. And often times, we're seeing that there is different paces of a journey. And so for example, I worked with a client that started building a cloud native application. They built about 60 micro services. And at the end of that, they were deploying it as one job which means they defeated the whole purpose of micro service architecture. And so what we really need to think about is an end to end journey. I think the developers are probably the more modern role in an enterprise, but we're starting to see modernization of an operations team for example, and adopting culture, and cutting down the walls of IT organizational groups into mixed squads, adopting something like a Spotify model. And I think a lot of the challenges in adopting kubernetes is really in cultural aspects and in enterprise. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. And because network guys are different than the app guys, and now they have policy knobs on kubernetes they can play with. Network guys love policy. >> Yeah, and they're fighting over ownership, right? >> Roland indeed. We look at that modernization, the application modernization really is that long home intent. And what we hear here is you need to be able to meet customers where they are. Sure, there's some stuff they're building shiny and new and have the developers, but enterprises have a lot of application and therefore there's a grand spectrum. What do you hear from customers? What's the easy part and where's the parts they're getting stuck? >> Yeah, so I think the easy part is writing the application. I think where they're getting stuck is really scaling it to the enterprise, doing the operations, doing the DevOps. I always tell people that a modernization journey might be better started by taking a certain class of applications like middleware where we have a WebSphere heritage from IBM, and saying why don't we take a look at containerizing that. We've built tools like Transformation Advisor that'll scan your WebSphere applications and tell you what do you need to change in that middleware application to make it behave well in a containerized platform. Then from there, you build your DevOps engine, your DevOps pipeline and you really start to get your operations teams going in delivering containers, delivering applications as containers. And then getting your policies and your standards in place. Then you can start opening up around innovation and start really driving towards building cloud native new applications in addition to that. >> One of those areas we've been talking about in the industry for decades is automation. The conversation's a little bit different these days. Maybe you can bring us up to speed about what's different than say it was earlier days. >> Yeah, I think IT organizations have always done a bit of automation. I think they write scripts, they automate builds. I think the mantra that I use is automate everything, right? Organizations need to really start to automate in a new way. How I deliver containers, but delivering the app is not enough. I need to automate all levels of testing in a modern way. Test driven development is big. At the IBM Cloud Garage, we have something we call the IBM Cloud Garage Method which really takes a set of practices like test driven development, pair programming, things out of lean startup, extreme programming, and really start to help enterprises adopt those practices. So I say why can't we automate end to end performance testing in the pipeline, and functional testing, and writing them early and in the beginning of projects? That way, as I'm deploying containers which are very dynamic, along with configuration, and along with policy you're testing it continuously. And I think that level of automation is what we need to get to. >> Talk about security as well 'cause security's one of those things where it's got to be baked in upfront. You got to think about it holistically. It's also now being pulled out of IT, it's more of a board function because the risk management is one hack you could get crushed. And so you got to have security. And the container there's a security boundary issue, so it's important. >> Last week we met with an insurance company. We did a workshop. And they walked us through all the compliant steps that they need to go through today. How they do it with traditional middleware and virtual machines and hardware and it was a very, what I'm going to say governance driven process. And so a lot of checks and balances, stop don't move forward, which is really the industry for developing and innovating is going the opposite way: self service and enabling. And there's a lot of risk with that. And so what we're really trying to do with technology is like Multicloud Manager, technology we have around multicluster, management is how do I do things like I want to check which clusters are Hipaa compliant and which ones are out. How do i force that policy? >> That's smart. >> Now that everything is software driven, software developed, there's an opportunity to really automate those checks. >> So your point automate everything. >> Yeah, I want to automate everything. >> Governance is a service. (laughing) >> Yeah, that's right. And actually, that can help get away from error prone human checks where they had all these tons of documents of all different policies they have to go through can now be automated in a seamless way. >> So compliance and governance could be a stumbling block or it can be just part of the software. That's what you're getting at here. >> That's right, that's what I'm getting at. I think the transition is look at it as an opportunity now that everything is software driven, use software disciplines that developers are used to in those security roles and those CSO roles, etc. >> So I want to ask you a question. So one of the things we're seeing obviously with the cloud is it's great for certain things, and then on premises it has latency issues. We saw Amazon essentially endorse this by saying RDS on VMware on premises. They announced Outpost had reinvent oh, latency. Things aren't moving into the cloud as fast. So you're going to see this hybrid environment. So hybrids, we get that, it's been around, check. No real discussion other than it's happening. The real trend is multicloud, right? >> That' right. >> And so multicloud is just a modern version of the word multi vendor about the client server days. So systems were a multi vendor man choice. This is a fundamental thing. It's not so much about multicloud as it is about choice. How do you guys see that? You are in an environment where you have a lot of customers who don't have one cloud, so this is a big upcoming trend in 2019. >> Most of our clients have at least five different clouds that they deal with, whether it be an IaaS, a PaaS, a SaaS base solution. What we're seeing as a trend is we talked about on premise and private and enterprise is I think is 80% of workloads are still in the data center. And so they want to build that private cloud environment as a transitionary point to public, but what we're seeing across the multicloud space is I'm going to say a new integration space. So if you really think 15 years ago, SOA and enterprise service bosses in a very centralized fashion, I think there's a new opportunity for integration across clouds and on-prem in a more decentralized way. So I think integration is kind of the next trend that we're seeing in this multicloud space because the new applications that we're seeing with cognitive data AI are mixing data sources from multiple clouds and on-prem and needing to control that in a hybrid control plane is key. >> It's funny, the industry always talks about these buzzwords, multicloud. If we're talkin' about multicloud, then it's a problem. The idea of infrastructure as code it's not even use the word multicloud. I mean, if you think about it, if you're programming the infrastructure and enabling the stuff under the covers, why even talk about cloud? It should be automated, so that's the future state, but in reality, that's kind of what enterprisers are tryin' to think about. >> They are, and I think it's a tension between innovation and moving fast and control, right? The enterprisers want to move fast, but they want to make sure that they don't break security protocol, that they don't break resiliency that they're maybe have used to with their existing customers and applications. I do think the challenge is how operations teams and management teams start to act like developers to get to that point. And I think that's part of the journey. >> Open source obviously a big part of this show, and that's open source, people contribute upstream It's great stuff. IBM is a big contributor, and it'll be even more when Red Hat gets into the mix. So upstream's great, but as you got 8,000 people here, you're startin' to see people talkin' about business issues, and other things. One of the downstream impacts of this conference being so open source centric is the IT equation and then just the classic developer. So you have multiple personas now kind of interacting. You got the developer, you got the IT architect, cloud architect pro whatever, and then you got the open source community members. Melting pot: good, challenges, thoughts? >> So I think it's so developers love that, right? I think from an enterprise perspective, there are issues. We're seeing a lot of our clients with our private cloud platform ask us to build out what's called air gapped environment which is how do I build up an open source style ecosystem within my enterprise. So things like getting an artifactory registry or a Docker registry or whatever type of registry where I get certified, open source packages in my enterprise that I've gone and done security vulnerability scans with, or that I've made sure that I look at every layer from the Linux kernel all the way up to whatever software is included. So what we're seeing is how do I open the aperture a bit, but do it in a more responsible fashion I think is the key. >> Yeah, and that's for stability, right? So Stu, one of things I've been talkin' about and want to get your thoughts on this role is that you got the cloud as a scalable system then one of the things that's being discussed in Silicon Valley now for the first time, we've been sitting on theCube for years, is the cloud's a system. It's just some architecture, it's network distributing, computing, art paradigm, all that computer science has been around for awhile, right? >> Yes, yes. >> So if you've been a systems person whether hardware or whatever, operating systems, you get cloud. But also you got the horizontal specialism of applications that are using machine learning and data and applications which is unique on top. So you have the collision of those two worlds. This is kind of a modern version of two worlds that we used to call systems and apps, but they're happening in a real dynamic way. What's your thoughts on this? Because you got the benefits of horizontally scalable cloud and you now have the ability to power that so we're seeing things like AI, which has been around for a long, long time, have a renaissance because now you got a lot of compute. >> That's right, and I think data is the real big challenge we're seeing with a lot of our clients. They have a lot of it in their enterprise, they don't want to unlock it all right away. We recently did what's called IBM Cloud Private for Data, in which we brought in a set of technologies around our AI, our Watson core to really start leveraging some of those tools in a private manner. And then what we're seeing is a lot of applications that are moving to the cloud have a data drag. It might start as something as simple as caching data and no SQL databases, but very quickly they want to learn a lot more about that data. So we're seeing that mix happening all the time. >> We've had it, we've had someone say in theCube ML's the new SQL. >> Yeah. >> Because you're starting to see SQL abstraction layers are a beautiful thing if they're connected. So I want to get your thoughts on this because everyone's kind of in discovery mode right now. Learning, there's a lot of education. I mean, we're talkin' about real, big time players. Architects are becoming cloud architects. Sysadmins are becoming operators for large infrastructure scale. You see network guys goin' wait a minute, if I don't get on the new network programmable model I'm going to be irrelevant. So a lot of persona changes in the enterprise. How are you guys handling that with customers? I know you guys have the expert program. Comment on that dynamic. >> I think what we're doing is we use the IBM Cloud Garage to bring in practices like the Spotify method where we start pushing things like >> What's the Spotify method? >> Spotify method is a way of doing kind of development where rather than having your disciplines of architects, development, operations, we're now splitting teams, let's say functionally, where I have mixed disciplines in a squad and maybe saying hey, the person building the account team has an SRE, an ops guy, a dev guy all within their same squad. And then maybe have guilds across disciplines, right? And so what we do at the Garage is we bring 'em in to one of the Garages. We have four team locations worldwide. Maybe do your first project. Then we build enablement and education around that, bring it back to the enterprise and start making that viral. And that's what we're doing in the IBM Cloud Garage. >> So not a monolithic thing, breakin' it down, integrating multiple disciplines, kind of like a playlist. >> Yeah, that's right. And I think the best way to do it is to practice it, right, in action. Let's pick a project rather than talking about it. >> If I had to ask you in 2019, what is the IT investment going to look like with kubernetes impact? How does kubernetes change the IT priorities and investments for an enterprise? >> Yeah, so I think you'll see kubernetes become a vehicle for enterprises to deliver content. So one, the whole area around helm and other package managers as a way to bundle software. I think as people build more clusters, multicluster management is going to be the big trend of how do I deal now with clusters that I have in public cloud and private cloud, all different clouds? And I think that integration layer that I talked about where what does modern integration look like across kubernetes based applications. >> Someone asked me last week at Reinvent hey, can't we just automate kubernetes? And then I was like, well it's kind of automated now. What's your thoughts on that? >> So I think when someone asks a question what does it mean to automate that I think the kubernetes stack really sits on top of IaaS infrastructure. And so for example, our IBM Cloud Private you can run it on zLinux or Power. And we have a lot of IBM folks that run multi architecture clusters. And therefore, they still need a level of automating how I create clusters over IaaS and there's technologies like Terraform and others that help with that, but then there's also automating standing up the DevOps stack, automating deployment of the applications over that stack. And I think they mean automating how I use kubernetes in an environment. >> So 2019, the year of programmability and automation creating goodness around kubernetes. >> Yeah, absolutely, >> Roland, thanks for comin' >> Thank you, it was great. >> on theCube, thanks for that smart insight. TheCube coverage here, day two winding down. We got day three tomorrow. This is theCube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. We'll be right back with more day two coverage after this short break. (happy electronic music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's the CUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. We are here live with CUBE coverage at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2018 in Seattle. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman your hosts all week, three days of coverage. We're in day two. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000, spanning to China, in Europe, everywhere, the CNCF is expanding. The Linux Foundation, and the ecosystems expanding, we're here with Dan Kohn who's the executive director of the CNCF. Dan, great to see you. I know you work hard. (laughs) I see you out in China. You've done the work. You guys and the team have taken this hockey stick as it's described on the Twittersphere, really up and to the right, you've doubled, it's almost like Moore's law for attendance. (laughs) Doubling every six months. It's really a testament of how it's structured, how you guys are managing it, the balances that you go through. So congratulations. >> So thank you very much, and I'm thrilled that you guys have been with us through that whole ride, that we met here in Seattle two years ago at the first KubeCon we ran with 1,000 attendees. And here we are eight times higher two years later. But I absolutely do need to say it is the community that's growing, and we try and organize them a little bit and harness some of that excitement and energy and then there is a ton of logistics and effort that it takes to go from 28 members to 349 and to put on an event like this, but we do have an amazing team at the Linux Foundation and this is absolutely an all hands on deck where the entire events team is out here and working really hard. >> You guys are smart, you know what you're doing, and you have the right tone and posture, but you set it up right, so it's end user driven, it's open-source community as the core of the event, and you're seeing end users that have contributed, they're now consuming, you have vendors coming in, but you set the nice playbook up, and the downstream benefits of that open-source core has impacted IT, developers, average developers, and this is the magic. And you guys don't take too many hard stands on things, you take a good enough stand on the enablement piece of it. This is a critical piece. Explain the rationale because I think this is a success formula. You don't go too far and say, here's the CNCF stack. >> Right. >> You pull back a little bit on that and let the ecosystem enable it. Talk about that rationale because I think this is an important point. >> Sure and I would say that one of the huge advantages that CNCF has had is that we came later after a lot of other projects. So our parent, the Linux Foundation, has been around for 15 years. We've been able to leverage all of their expertise. We've looked at some of the mistakes that OpenStack, and Apache, and IETF, and other giants who came before us did, and our aspiration has always been to make entirely new mistakes rather than to replicate the old ones. But as you mentioned end user is a key focus, so when you look at our community, how CNCF is set up, we have a governing board that's mainly vendors, it does have developer and other reps on it. We have our technical oversight committee of these nine experts, kind of like our supreme court, and then we have this end user community that is feeding requirements and feedback back to the other group. >> I want to ask you about the structure, and I think this is important because you guys have a great governance model, but you have this concept of graduation. You have Kubernetes, and it's really solid, people are very happy with it, and there's always debates in open-source as you know, but there's a concept of graduating. Anyone can have projects, and explain that dynamic. 'Cause that's, I've heard people say, oh that's part of the CNCF, and well it hasn't graduated, but it's a project. It's important as a laddering there, explain that concept. I think this is important for people to understand that you're open, but there's kind of a model of graduation. What does it mean? >> Sure and it, people have said, oh you mean they've graduated, so they've left now, right? Like the kids leaving the home. And it's definitely not that model. Kubernetes is still very much part of CNCF. We're happy to do it. But we think that one of CNCF's functions is as a signaling and a marketing to enterprise users. And we like the cliche of crossing the chasm where we talk about 2018 was really the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm. Went from as early adopters who'd been using it for years and were thrilled with it but they actually jump over now to the early majority. I will say though that the late majority, the laggards, the skeptics, they're not using these technologies yet. We still have a ton of opportunity for years to come on that. So we say the graduated projects, which today is not just Kubernetes but also Prometheus and Envoy. Those are the ones that are suitable for really any enterprise company, and that they should feel confident these are very mature, serious technologies for companies of all size. The majority of our projects are incubating. Those are great projects, technically capable, companies should absolutely use them if the use case fits, but they're less mature. And then we have this other category of the Sandbox, 11 projects in there, and we say look, these are incredibly promising. If you are technical enough and you have the use cases, you absolutely should consider it, but they are less mature. And then our hope is to help the projects move along that graduation phase. >> And that's how companies start. Bloomberg's plan, I thinking jumping into Sandbox, they'll start getting some code in there that'll attract some people, they get their code, they don't have to come back after the fact and join in. So you have the Sandbox, you've got projects, you've got graduation, so. >> Now Bloomberg's a little bit unusual, and I like them as an example where they have, I don't know if they mentioned this, but almost a philosophy not to spend money on software. And of course that's great. All of our projects are free and open-source, and they're willing to spend money on people, and they hire a spectacular group of engineers, and then they support everything in-house. But in reality, the vast majority of end users are very happy to work with the vendor, including a lot of our members, and pay for some of that support. And so a Bloomberg can be a little bit more adventurous than many, I think. >> Dan, I wonder if you can provide a little bit of context. I hear some people look at really kind of the conformance and certification that the CNCF does. And I think in many ways learn from the mistakes of some of the things we've done in the past because they'll see there's so many companies, it's like, well there's too many distributions. Maybe you could help explain the difference between a distribution-- >> Sure. >> And what's supported and how that makes sense. >> And I think when you look back at, and we just had, CNCF just had our three-year birthday this week, we have a little birthday cake on Twitter and everything. But if you look at all the activities we've been involved in over those three years, KubeCon, CloudNativeCon, we have a service provider program, we've done a lot of marketing, helping projects, I think it's the certification and the software conformance is the single thing that we've had done that's had the biggest impact on the community. And the idea here is that we wanted a way for individual companies to be able to make changes to Kubernetes because they all want to, but to still have confidence that you could take the same workload and move it between the different public clouds, between the different enterprise distros or just vanilla Kubernetes that you download or different installers out there. And so the solution was an open-source software conformance project that anyone can download these tasks and run them, and then a process where people upload the test results and say, yes my implementation is still conformant. I've made these changes, but I haven't broken anything. And we really have some amazing cases of our members, some of our biggest members, who had turned off APIs, maybe in their public cloud for good reasons. They said, oh this doesn't apply or we don't, but that's exactly the kind of thing that can cause incompatibility. >> Yeah, I mean that's critically important, and the other thing that is, what I haven't heard, is there's so many projects here. And we go to the Amazon show and it's like, I'm overwhelmed and I don't know what to do, and I can't keep up with everything. I'm actually surprised I don't hear that here because there are pockets, and this is multiple communities, not like a single monolithic community, so you've got, you know Envoy has their own little separate show and Operators has a thing on Friday that they're doing, and there's the Helm community and sometimes I'm putting many of the pieces together, but oftentimes I'm taking just a couple of the pieces. How do you manage this loosely coupled, it's like distributed architecture. >> Loosely coupled is a key phrase. I think the big advantage we have is our anchor tenant of Kubernetes has its own gravitational field. And so from a compatibility standpoint, we have this, excuse me, certification program for Kubernetes and then all of the other projects essentially ensure they're orbiting around and they ensure that they're compatible with Kubernetes, that also ensures they're compatible with each other. Now it's definitely the case that our projects are used beyond just Kubernetes. We were thrilled with Amazon's announcement two weeks ago of commercial support for Envoy and talking about how one of the things they loved about Envoy is that is doesn't just work on Kubernetes, they can use it on their proprietary ECS platform on their regular EC2 environment as well. And that's true for almost all of our projects. Prometheus is used in Mesos, is used in Docker Swarm, is used in VMs, but I do think that having so much traction and momentum around Kubernetes just is a forcing function for the whole community to come together and stay compatible. >> Well you guys did a great job. That happened last year. It's really to me is an example of a historic moment in the computer industry because this is a modern version of enabling technology that's going to enable a lot of value creation, a lot of wealth creation, a lot of customer, and it's all in a new way, so I think you guys really cracked the code on that and continued success. You've obviously had China going gangbusters, you're expanding, China by the way is one of the largest areas we've reported on Siliconangle.com and the CUBE in the past. China has emerged as one of the largest contributors and consumers of open-source given the rise of all the action going on in China. >> And we've been thrilled to see that, and I mean there was just the example yesterday where etcd is now the newest project, the newest incubating project in CNCF, and the co-creator of that and really the lead maintainer for it left CoreOS when it was acquired by Red Hat and is now with Alibaba. And he's originally from China. He is helping Alibaba just who's a platinum member of CNCF, who's been offering a certified Kubernetes service, but they're now looking at how they can move much more of their internal workloads over to it. JD.com has 25,000 servers. That's the second biggest retailer in China. >> It's a constituent. >> I was there six times last year. >> I know you were. >> I ran into you once in a hotel lobby. (laughing) >> What are you doing in China? It's huge, we're here. This is a big dynamic. This is new. I mean this is a big force and function. >> And to have so much energy, and I do also want to really emphasize the two-way street, that it's not just Chinese companies adopting these technologies that started in the US. >> They're contributing. >> We were thrilled a month ago to have Harbor come in as an incubating project and that started in China and is now being used across the world. >> Dan, 2019, you've got three shows again, Barcelona, Shanghai, and San Diego. >> Exactly. >> Of course the numbers are going to be up and to the right, but what else should we be looking for? >> So I think the two, so definitely China, we're going to continue doing it there, we continue to be relations serverless, we're thrilled with the progress of our serverless working group. They have this new cloud event spec, we have all of the different major clouds participating in it. The third area that I think you're going to see us that is somewhat new is looking at telcos. And our vision is that you can take a lot, most networking code today is done in virtual machines called virtual network functions. We think those should evolve to become cloud native network functions. The same networking code running in containers on Kubernetes. And so this is actually going to be our first time with a booth at Mobile World Congress in Barcelona in February. And we're going to be talking about-- >> Makes a lot of sense. IOT, over the top, a lot of enablement there. Makes inefficiencies in that inefficient stacks. >> Yeah, and on the edge as well. >> Dan, thanks for coming out, I appreciate it. Again, you've done the work, hard work, and continue it, great success, congratulations. I know it's early days still but. >> I hope it is. At some date Kubernetes is going to plateau. But it really doesn't feel like it'll be 2019. >> Yeah, it definitely is not boring. (laughing) Even though we had much more, Dan. >> Dan Kohn, executive director of the CNCF. Here inside the CUBE, breaking it all down, again, another successful show. Just the growth, this is the tsunami, it's a rise of Kubernetes and the ecosystem around it, creating values, the CUBE coverage, live here in Seattle. I'll be back with more coverage after this short break. I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and the Antigo System Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone live here in Seattle for the theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloundNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Three days of coverage, we're in day two. A lot of action at Open-source. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000 North America, they were in China, they were all over Europe. The community's growing in a massive way. We had two great guests from Red Hat, all making it happen, part of the community. We've got Diane Mueller, whose theCUBE alumni director of community development, many times on theCUBE, good to see you, and Rob Szumski, principal product manager, both at Red Hat. Guys, thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Yeah, glad to be here. - Great to be here. >> So the world's changing a lot, and there was some news recently around Red Hat. I can't remember what it was. Recently, something big news, but you guys have been big players in Open-source for years. We always cover it, we always wax on about the origination of it and how the evolution, but the CloudNative piece has gotten so real, and your role in it particularly, we've had many conversations, going maybe back to the OpenStack days of how OpenShift was developing, then the bet on Kubernetes that you made, Core OS acquisition, those two things I think, to me, at least from my perspective, really catalyzed a lot of things at the right time, right? So, from there, just a lot of things has just been happening really in a good way. Big tail wind for you guys, CloudNative app developers are using Open-source, CI/CD pipeline, and then also policy based up under the hood, completely big shift in moving the game down the field. So big congratulations first of all. But what's new? What's the update? >> The update is Operators. I think the next big thing that we are really focusing on, and that's a game changer for all the second day operations type things, and we'll make Rob talk about it in detail, is the rise of Kubernetes' Operators. It's not a scary thing, it's not like terminator day, or anything like that, but it is really the thing that helps us make the service catalogs, the Kubernetes marketplaces really accessible to all of the data bases as a service, and all of the other things, and takes out some of the complexity of delivering applications and database  as a Service to anybody running Kubernetes anywhere. >> Take a minute to explain Operator, real quick, and then we can jump into it, because I think this is a fundamental trend, that we're seeing. Developer trend is pretty obvious, it's been that word for awhile, CloudScale, ML, machine learning, and all the goodness around application development, but the Operator side of it has been an IT thing. But now you guys have a different, a new approach that's winning. What is it? What is Operator? >> Well, it's Kubernetes that has the approach, and I'll let you-- >> Yeah, so it's basically like the rise of containers was great, because you could take a single container and package an application and give to somebody, and know that they can run it successfully. And Operator does that for a distributed system in the exact same way. So you're using all the Kubernetes primitives, so you're not reinventing service discovery, and seeker management, and all that. And you can give somebody an entire Kafka stack, or a machine learning stack, or whatever it is, these very complex distributed systems, and have them run it without having to be an expert. They need to know Kafka at a high level, but not exactly all the underpinnings of it, because that's all baked in the software. >> And the benefit and the impact of the organization is what? >> And just to clarify, so this was added in, I believe Kubernetes is like 1.7, it's something that's in there, it's not something Red Hat specific- >> Yeah, it's like-- >> So you're extending Kubernetes so that you have a custom resource definition, which is an extensible mechanism for saying, hey, I've got a deployment or a staple set, but what if I want to have a new object called a MongoDB? That knows how to deploy, and manage, and upgrade MongoDB. So that's the extension mechanism that we're using. >> Yeah, so you got to think, there's certain applications that this is going to make, just a lot easier how I manage them, deploy them, things like that. Any specific examples you want to share as to-- >> All the clustered data bases. >> There's a lot of the application side in this model have been very excited about this. >> So its all the vendors and partners that want a hybrid Cloud story, just targeting Kubernetes, and we're using Kubernetes under the hood, and then everybody wants to run like a staple data base tier, whether that's Mongo and Couchbase, and Cassandra, whatever. And these are all distributed systems. >> Alright, so I want you to just perch, you said a hybrid Cloud. Explain that model, because there's just something in general discussion that is hybrid or multi means I'm running multiple places, I'm not necessarily stretching an application, but I have instances there, just want to make sure we're on the same page. >> So this would be more the compatibility that you're programming against when you're building an operator, is Kubernetes. It's not a Cloud offering, it's not OpenShift, so you're just targeting Kubernetes, and so you can run MongoDB on prem, in the Cloud, and have it function the exact same, by standing up one of these Operators. And then if that Operator has higher level constructs for how to do multi-cluster aware data rebalancing, you can take advantage of that too. >> And the Open-source status of this product is what? >> It's all Open-source, it's all in the github repos, there's a Google group for Operator framework, that anyone can come and participate in. We hold SIG meetings on the third Friday of every month, 9 a.m. Pacific Time, and it's a completely Open-source project. There's a whole framework around it, so there's the Operator SDK, the Operator Lifecycle Management, and Operator metering, all the tooling there to help people build and manage these Operators, and it's all being built out there in the open with the community's support and feedback loops. >> What's the feedback? What's the top feedback you guys are getting right now? Seeing right now? >> I have to say, this is really, like I've been hanging out with you guys like for the past three, four months on this topic, trying to get my head around it and everything, and we came here and we had two sessions, an intro session and a deep dive session, intro yesterday, deep dive today. Today's deep dive, the room was about 250 people, and they're were people outside of it-- >> Security guards blocking people from coming in. >> Nobody could come in and it's like, it's insane. It's like, everybody needs these things, and everybody wants to figure out that, and when you ask people in the room whose building one, half the room raises their hands. It's just crazy. This thing crept up on us really, maybe not on Core OS, okay, it crept up on me very quickly, and it's very rapid adoption. We have a Kubernetes Operators workshop on Friday, so not only do we have pre-conference days of like OpenShift Cons that are huge now, but now we're starting to book end, CNCF events and put on other things, just because, and that, we had 100 seats that we were hoping we would fill, and it sold out in like minutes once it got in there, and there's a waiting list of like 300 people. It is like one of, aside from Knative, and all the other wonderful hot things too, it is one of the most interesting developments I think right now. >> Thirst for the content. Would it impact? >> Yeah, and you can get all of the documentation is out there now, and people are already building them. We have a list of 50 community Operators. It's just, it's phenomenal how quickly it's growing. >> You know, Diane and Rob, it's funny because you know, we do so many of these theCUBE interviews, and this is our 10th year doing theCUBE coming up, and I remember the conversations going back in the OpenStack days, we would ask questions like, if you had a magic wand, what would you like, hope to have happened, right? And you know, those are parts of the evolution, where it's like, it's aspirational, things are being built. It seems now with Kubernetes, it's almost like, wait a minute, it's actually, this is like the goodness is so compelling, above and below Kubernetes that it's almost like uncomprehendible. You think about, oh this is actually happening. Finally the kinds of steady state kind of operational things that have been a pain in the butt for years-- >> Yeah, the toil, it's gone, for the most part. >> Yeah. >> So Rob, I've been having a lot of just thinking back to, you're employee number two at Core OS, when I first talked to Core OS, it was, we're going to build all of these individual tools, and we're going to Open-source them, and it's going to be good. We watched this just rising ecosystem and the CNCF, and it feels like what's nice and what's different that I see, compared to some previous things, is it's not one product or even a small group of companies. It's, I have this tool kit, and some of them work together, but many of them are independently used. We've talked to your peers earlier about it, etCD. etCD is totally stand alone, doesn't need to be Kubernetes. What have you seen, if you go back to that original vision, would Core OS just been, part of this whole ecosystem, and done it, if this was available, and has this delivering on a promise that your team had hoped to work on? >> Yeah, so we've always filled in where we see gaps, and so something like etCD, the concept is not new, and it comes from Google, and they have a system internally, and as Brandon got up on stage and said, we needed that coordinate, reboot, to grow out, to cluster of machines. It didn't exist so we had to build it. Same thing with how we wanted to manage Linux. There was no distro that even resembled what we were doing. Wanted to do automatic upgrades, people thought that was crazy, so we had to go build it. And so, but we always adopted the best of breed technology, when it existed. In our early bet Kubernetes, we just saw, this is the thing, and went for it. I don't even remember what version, but it was months and months before it was zero point oh, or one point oh, so it was, we've been doing it forever. And you just see the right thing, and it's the little nugget that you need, and if you don't see it, then you build it. >> What are you surprised about Rob, in terms of the ecosystem now, you mentioned some goodness is happening, still a lot more to do, visibility around value creation, you're starting to see spots where value can be created in the ecosystem, which is great. Still more work areas, but what's surprising you? What do you see as opportunities, challenges? Your thoughts, because this vision of ease of use and programmability, is happening, right? So there's still more work to do. What's your vision there? What's your thoughts? >> I mean, I think self service is key, so this is like the rise of the Cloud comes from self service for developers, and Kubernetes gives you the right abstraction, where self service for VM's, like OpenStack, which is not quite at the level of what you want. You don't want a VM, you actually wanted a place to deploy an application, you wanted load balancing, you wanted service discovery, you didn't want like a bare Ubuntu VM, and so Kubernetes raises you up to where you're productive, and then it's about building stuff on top. But what's interesting, in the space is, we're still kind of competing on Kubernetes installers, and stuff like that, so we're not even really into like the phase where people are being super productive on the platform, other than these leading companies. So I think we'll democratize that, and we'll have a whole new landscape. >> And so 2019 you see as what being a key theme for Kubernetes? >> I think it'll be Core stuff built on top, like all the serverless frameworks, a bunch of container natives storage solutions, solving some of these problems that folks are reaching out to external machine learning, but bringing that onto the cluster, GPU support, that type of stuff. It's all about the workloads. >> And tradition end users, you have a huge install base, with Red Hat, well documented, as the end users start coming in and looking at CloudNative, and doing a reimagine of their environment, whether it's IT span, IT investments, to have a run their coding and the deployments. It's going to change. 2019's going to have an impact on what I call mainstream enterprise, for lack of a better description. What's the impact of those guys, 'cause now, they now have head room, they can do more, what's the main stream enterprise look like right now with the impact of Kubernetes? >> I think they're going to start deploying applications and get like lower the time to business value, much, much lower. And I was just talking to a customer, and they ordered bare metal machines like a year ago, and they're still not racked and in the data center. And so people are still getting over that type of stuff, but once you have like a shared Kubernetes layer, you can onboard teams like crazy. I mean, name spaces are free, quote, unquote, and you can get 35 engineering teams on a Kubernetes cluster super easy. >> So they can ramp up in development teams basically, as they bring value in-house, versus outsourcing everything. They start getting development teams, this is where the action is. >> I think you're also going to see the rise of those end users contributing back things, to the Kubernetes community and as Lyft, and Uber, and everybody are great examples of that. Uber with Jaeger, and Lyft is, we were just in the Operators thing, and they raised their hand that they are about to Open-source it, a few Operators that they're building and stuff, and you're just going to see people that you didn't normally see. Often these large foundation driven things are vendor driven, but I think what you see here, is the end user community is now embracing the Open-source, is getting the legal teams there, allowing them to share their things, because one, they get more people to maintain them, and more people working on them, but it's really I think the rise of the end user we'll see, as they start participating more and more in here. And that's the promise of Open-source. >> And that's where CNCF really made it's bones. It wasn't really vendor led per se, it was really end users, the guys building out their stuff for the first time. You see Lyft for instance, great example, you guys did a Core OS, this is like the new generational model. Final question before we break. I want to get this out there. Get a plug in for Red Hat. What are you guys, what's the focus for the show? What's the news? What's the big story for Red Hat here at KubeCon this year? >> I think it's Operators, that's what we're here talking about. It's a really big push to once again get smarter workloads onto the cluster. We've got a really great hybrid story, we've got a really great over the air upgrade story that we're bringing from some of the Core OS technology, and then the next thing is, once it's easy to run 35 clusters, we need a bunch of workloads to put on there. And so we want to save folks from the toil of running all those workloads as well, just like we did at the cluster level. >> Awesome. >> Well put. I couldn't add more. One of the things that Core OS did, you hit the nail on the head earlier, is when there was something missing, they helped us build it, and with the Operator SDK, and the Lifecycle Management, and the metering, and whatever else the tooling is, they have really been inspirational inside of Red Hat. And so they filled a number of gaps, and it's just been all Operators all the time right now. >> It's great when a plan comes together. You guys got a great tail wind. Congratulations on all the success, and it's just the beginning of the wave. It's theCUBE, covering the wave of innovation here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018, we'll be back with more live coverage. Day two of Three days of Kube Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washinton it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. We're live here at KubeCon, Cloud Native. This is theCUBE's live coverage of three days of three days of wall to wall coverage. Day two, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. Our next guess is an end user, also a program chair of EnvoyCon, which is sold out. Matt Klein, software engineer with Lyft. Great to have you on again, good to see you. Thanks for spending the time. >> Thank you great to be here. >> I know you've been busy, your voice is getting hoarse. You guys had a successful EnvoyCon, sold out. Was on the front-end of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Interesting, right? This is the rising tide. What's going on? How'd that go? Why all the interest? >> It's been I continue to be blown away by the overall reaction. So we had EnvoyCon on Monday. We had, I think almost 350 people come, sold out. I think we could have had a larger room if it was available, but we didn't. Just amazing to walk around this conference and see all the cloud vendors getting behind Envoy, lots of companies building on top of Envoy, all of the end users. It just seems to be everywhere here and to have only been open source for a little over two years, I mean it's just unbelievable. >> Matt you know I think a year ago service mesh was something we were still getting the basic understanding of what it was and it definitely, there's certain interviews we've done this week, you know service mesh, you know Envoy, thing likes Istio are going to be even bigger than Kubernetes. >> Yeah, well you know I've been to the last few KubeCons and every KubeCon, I think that it can't get much bigger or more nuts, and no, no. Everyone seems to be a little bit crazier. But no, just from the community perspective, EnvoyCon was fantastic because we had mostly end user talks so it was really fun to get people together and to see all the different things they're building on top of Envoy. >> One of the things that's impressive and I think is a real notable story, and of course we talked about it a bit last time you were on, is that Lyft as an end user kind of encapsulates and epitomizes kind of the innovation building going on. A lot of people have been building a lot of cool stuff using cloud look and getting down and dirty and rolling their own. And actually creating business value, not in a classic IT by IT, just build IT, build systems >> Yep >> To build business value and then donating it in to scale up with the community is pretty notable so congratulations on that. >> Thanks. >> Now you have startups kind of acting the same way so the line between a vendor and end user is certainly changing. I mean, we were end users. Well they're all kind of end users. This is a dynamic that is, I think notable for this generation and it's real. Talk about that dynamic because I think this is a real success story and also a trend in the industry. >> You know so I think for us what's fun for me about not only building Envoy but seeing how it's evolved is really what you said is that I like solving actual problems for people, right? We can have different opinions on what the different vendors are doing, of course. There's lots of people doing different things, but for me at least working at a company like Lyft it's super fun to be able to build technology that solves specific problems that the business is actually happening. Now if something becomes successful sure we're going to see a lot of vendors come in hopefully build products that can help other folks. The way that I look at it and this has been an interesting evolution for me over the last year is I would say a year ago, people would come to me and say "Hey Matt, I've heard about Envoy I'd like to use to help solve some problems and I went to the website and I don't understand it, like it's too complicated to use. The documentation is not good enough." And I think over the last year my thinking has evolved a little bit in the sense that we've seen so many people or end users or companies build fantastic products on top of Envoy and I think one of the reasons Envoy's become so successful is that it's a building block that other people can come and add vertical value. So whether that's a more sophisticated internet company like Lyft or a vendor or a cloud vendor. I think that's what's made the community so successful is that we can build this base thing and it's amazing but then we can allow people to add vertical value. >> And you know that's an interesting dynamic of both cloud and open source. You look at Amazon, the most successful public cloud Their core building blocks was EC2 and S3 originally. Open source is about building on top of other things. Again the dynamic between open source and cloud scale is really kind of the magic. >> Well and just in terms of how we actually go through and I think fund some of these projects ends up being very interesting. Just in the sense that we have a lot of full time people working on Envoy and they're working on it actually for different reasons. We have people working on it as end users, we have people working on it because they're building vertical products but in the end everyone wins because the base technology stays technology focused. I think that has been what has been successful, is that we allow people to succeed in different ways. >> Alright, so Matt, you're at the forefront of one of the most difficult problems that we're looking at these days. It's scale, distributed systems, and edge and how that ties in. I want to get your kind of macro level viewpoint as to how we're doing in this industry? What are some of those tough challenges we've talked about? We talk about things like IoT and Edge and vehicles of course have a lot of them. >> Yeah so I mean, I think when you say scale there's two things that comes to mind. There's physical scale, and I do agree actually that we are continuing to push more compute out to the edge and in fact, I talked about this a little at EnvoyCon, but I have some very exciting projects or plans to bring Envoy actually to mobile phones and to Edge devices starting next year. I'll have more to say about that in the spring. I'm very excited about that. I do think there's a lot of opportunity to better evolve how we ingress data from the edge, how we do compute out at the edge, a bunch of other things. And I think Envoy will be at the forefront of that but when you talk about scale I still think that there's a lot of human scale involved of how we scale the number of developers that are working on all of these architectures. And I do think that Service Mesh and Kubernetes and a bunch of other stuff ultimately if we're successful it helps us grow the number of product developers that can successfully work on these systems. I still think we have a long way to go but I think that's one of those areas where I think some of these technologies help people both at physical internet scale but also at human scale. >> Well I really appreciate your work you're doing. Your contributions to the community, both on solving the problems with Envoy and also being the program chair of EnvoyCon I think is going to be great for the community. I got to ask you as you get pulled into a lot of these, I won't say political, or media kind of conversations you got to kind of be a helicopter and get above and get high level and talk to people who are discovering and learning for the first time which is part of what communities do. How do you talk about those other end users that say "Hey Matt, I'm going to reshape our company, I'm going to reshape their IT investments all based on open source and I really want to learn more about Envoy and just the benefits of Cloud Native in general. I got to go, and I'm a believer, I got to go talk to some wanna-believers or non-believers in my company and I got to make my point home?" How do they be successful? What's your advice to that? Because that's a challenge a lot of people are having. >> I totally agree My advice, first and foremost, is to start by understanding what problems are trying to be solved. And I actually think that sounds very obvious but I think that people don't do it enough because I think sometimes we come to conferences like this and we see all the amazing technology that people are building and it seems fantastic but if one tries to adopt everything that they see here without understanding the incremental steps and the things that are the problems that are being solved that can be very problematic. >> It's a new kind of technical depth. It's kind of a new way >> My advice is to start with what are the actual problems, right? And whether that be observability issues, or authentication issues, or security issues, or whatever, is to start with the problems and then work backwards and my advice is always incremental, no big bang. And try to figure out the right incremental path of adopting the smallest piece of technology that solves a particular problem and go from there. >> And build economies of scale to the mission. >> Right, and whether that means working with a vendor or working with the raw open source technology that's a personal decision of each company to figure out what their comfort level is. But that really is my advice, is start with the problem statement and then figure out the easiest and the quickest incremental path forward. >> The trends that we're seeing Stu was talking earlier, a lot of hyper-scalers here, a lot of diversity coming into the community just what's the hallway conversation amongst the people in the community around as the community grows larger? I mean open source community core persona or constituency, then you got the down-stream impact of that is IT is changing, developers are coming in. So it's not so much changing personas and target audiences of the environment. Open source is still core. That's kind of the down-stream impacts. So you're seeing a lot of people come in, IT people, new developers. How does the community look at that? What's your view on how to engage but also not alienate new people? >> Well I think ultimately we are attempting to build systems help people be successful and be more productive, right? I think the natural evolution of that is bringing some of this technology into the enterprise. We have to recognize that as the community scales the base line level of knowledge is different. I mean we all come at it with different understanding of whether it be networking or orchestration or security. And I think what I would say is that we're never going to build one technology that makes everyone happy. It is impossible. It's impossible to build a technology that satisfies both the expert user and the entry level user. So I believe that we need to build layered technologies, layered abstraction that allow people to plug in at different levels and some of them are more opinionated than others. And I think it is recognizing and supporting a community that has base level technology, has vendors adding value at different layers to help people, and really just respecting the fact that people come at it with different levels. >> I mean application assembly is really where it's going. >> Exactly, I agree >> Matt, I'm wondering if you could reflect back for us. You're the creator of Envoy, I saw you up on stage yesterday, the supportive team and the community that helped this grow. And you've reached graduation. What does that mean to you, for the team? It's different than a school graduation, this is not the end of something, you don't get a diploma out of it. >> Is there a party? >> I don't know if there was. I don't think they invited me. >> Get pictures? >> Cloud Foundation picking up the bar tab? >> I don't know, maybe. So like from a project perspective, in terms of how we go about our day to day I don't think that much changes. I think we have been operating as a mature graduated level project probably for quite some time, in terms of adoption and methodology and stuff like that. I think what graduation means for the project is it's a vote of respect from the larger industry and the community that Envoy isn't going to disappear, it's not going to become an abandoned project on GitHub if for example if Lyft stops investing in it. I think we've reached a critical mass of project success and I think what that means is that it allows folks that may be at more conservative organizations who may be a little later to adopt newer technologies to give them the confidence that says Envoy is not going disappear, that we can potentially bet some of our future on Envoy. So I think it's a vote of confidence, I don't think it changes a lot about how we operate on a day to day basis. >> Matt, thanks for coming on theCUBE. Again, congratulations. Seminal work, you guys are doing great. Lyft is really, I think, a great example of the new dynamic in open source where they're building and they're working with the community to continue to extend that. And this is what we want, that's what open source is all about. >> It is. >> Congratulations. And we got to have a graduation party for Envoy. We'll figure it out, get photos and pictures and everything else. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Cool, thank you very much. >> theCUBE coverage here live, I'm John Furrier with Stu Miniman. More coverage after this short break, stay with us. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone. We're live in Seattle. It's theCUBE's two, three days of coverage. We're on day two of KubeCon Cloud Native Conference. This is the rise of the Kubernetes, the Ecosystem behind, the CNCF, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. I'm John Furrier, Cube host with Stu Miniman this week analyzing everything. Our next guest is Cheryl Hung, who's the director of the Ecosystem for the CNCF. Cheryl, great to have you back. We interviewed you in Copenhagen. Thanks for joining us again. >> Of course, I'm really happy to be back, really happy to see you again. >> So you got a new role. The last time we talked, you were working for, I think, storage-io-- >> StorageOS >> OS, StorageOS. Now you're full-time with the CNCF as the director of the ecosystem, which now is massively growing. What's going on? Tell us about your job and what you're working on. >> So the CNCF's overall mission is to support the development and the adoption of these open-source projects. And I really focus on the adoption side. So I really care about talking to end users and making sure that they can be successful and productive and happy as they transition to this new world of Cloud Native and Kubernetes and open-source infrastructure. So it's a massive change, you know, if you compare this to five or ten years ago, where we are now is so different, but it's really exciting to be apart of it. >> One of the interesting things I remember speaking with you about in Copenhagen, in Europe, at KubeCon there was, you have your background at Google. And so you're Cloud Native, the way you've been working at Google and then now out here. This whole world is moving that way. And the CNCF is end user driven and was really started by end user contributions and now they're all here. Now you have vendors coming in. So you have a dynamic ecosystem. You have contributors that are end users, vendors that are contributors, and now the consumption of Kubernetes and their related technology is growing. What's your take on it? What's the most important thing happening? What are you focused on, what's your focus? >> I think vendors do make a big contribution to the projects as well. I definitely want to recognize that vendors are part of our ecosystem as well. But I think it's really important that, you know, at the end of the day all of this good work is so end users can be successful with what they're doing. There's no point in building these projects if you don't take into account what the community needs out of it. So I've talked to a lot of companies now and there's three levels of engagement that I see about why they want to join this Cloud Native world. One is that they have some concrete technical problems that just need to be solved as soon as possible and they need to think about the best way to do it. The second is around building engineering organizations that can handle this new culture where you're not talking to a vendor who can give you six months of products roadmap in advance. You have to interact with open source communities directly. And in the third is technical executives who really want to put all of their business strategy behind Cloud Native and Kubernetes. And they're really fully invested in to making sure that this community succeeds because it ensures that they will succeed as well. >> And in the end users also we see a lot of recruiting here as well as contributing. This is a number one demand that we certainly see from the Kube's content side of the house here, is that there's demand and a thirst for educational content, for how-to's, the role of a cloud architect now is becoming a clear persona in enterprises. You got an IT impact, you got developer impact, you got open-source, kind of all coming together. Where is the action for the end user right now? If you look at the trends, obviously Kubernetes stability and naturalization is key. Is DOCB's hot? What are the kinds of things that are merging up for end users that you see a demand for feature wise and or just general trend? >> Lots of end users just actually want the CNCF to just tell them, do it this way, and the CNCF is not like that. We're very neutral, we want companies to choose the best things for themselves. So were not going to go out there and say this product over this product or this vendor over this vendor. What we do try to do is create a community where companies can talk to other companies who are trying to solve the same problems. Because that's what community is. Let's do this collaboratively, let's do it out in the open so we're not all trying to solve the same problems over and over and over again. But right now I see a lot of questions about how do you work in more mature, not more mature, but say the finance industry, or how do you work in heavily regulated environments where you have to do a lot of compliance. And also, how do you deal with this explosion of tooling, we all kind of agree that Kubernetes is the way to go, but now there's another 500 tools that you could evaluate out there. What's the best way to figure out the path through that for your company. >> Let the community guide that too, let that be the part of the process, the community really is the driver. >> Cheryl, I'm wondering how you bake that into the show itself as well as the community, are there vertical places that I've got a select channel, or I've got a community group that I can participate with. We know the whole way track is really bumping at a show like this. There's all of the project specific stuff, but how is it that I have that paradox of choice and there's so many different ways I can do it. I bet it would be tough for us to find two companies that have chosen all of the pieces and deploited in a similar enough way, so how do you sort through that? >> It's something that I'm thinking about a lot for the next KubeCon where I hope I see you in Barcelona. Or perhaps the San Diego one after that, it's hard to make sure that there is a place where end users actually come together and do that face to face interaction with each other. So the moment, especially KubeCon is now 8010-D's. It's insane, but now you have to have a more structured place where people can find each other. >> So you talk to a lot of customers that knew you moderate panels with customers. Where are they today? I've talked to some people that were like, "There's 8,000 people here?" And half of them are really new to Kubernetes and need some of just the one on one stuff. As opposed to last year, a lot of the users I talked to were like, "Oh I'm just pulling down the stuff and I'm building all my components and I'm contributing." So we have such a big spectrum. What are some of the big issues you're hearing from customers to help them move forward? >> So, Separate from, I'll come back to this in a second, even before I joined the CNCF, I ran the, and I still run, the Cloud Native London meetup group. Which gets about two to three hundred attendees each month. So obviously not the size of this, but a fairly healthy size for a community. And people will ask, I thought about, should we just focus on a particular segment, like the people who are just getting started, or the people who were actively contributing. And I actually think it's okay to have a place where you can have that mix of levels. And I think it's really important that the more experienced, or people who are further along in their journey have a chance to talk to people who are at the beginning, kind of mentor them through it. But at the same time, we want to do things. So I'll give you a little teaser for next year, we're planning to run smaller, local, more regional events for places that don't necessarily have the ability to come to these huge, giant conferences, and want to talk to each other in a single day, single track small, intimate place. >> More community events where people can participate, not feel remote. I mean, you guys what on the wait list, like 1500 people on the waiting list here. >> For this event? >> For this event, It's demand. >> There's tons of demand, like this is my secret thought, if in time we get to huge, huge sizes, I think we should get a cruise ship, put everyone on a cruise ship for three days, and just be like, "Let's go and sell together and be apart of that". >> We're seeing a lot of cruises on the cryptography site, ICO's, and bunch of the big coiners went, watching their prices go down. But you guys could literally fill a ship. >> Yes, seriously, the pace that KubeCon is growing, it's getting hard to find a place that can hold this many people. >> Community is super important to you guys and we know that, we've been watching it from the beginning. It's really, I don't want to say sacred, but it's really a key nurturing point. What's the vision for enabling the community? Obviously regional events would create sub network in the community, allow for some interaction face to face and contribution wise. What else are you guys doing on the community side that's interesting, that's important, that people should know about? >> So I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this and talking to a lot of companies and I really think there is no substitution for the face to face stuff, at least initially. There's a lot of online that you can get involved with now, through the mailing lists and Slack and GitHub and all these things. But I really think that if you don't know somebody who's already part of the community, it can be quite hard to know where to even begin. It can feel feel a bit overwhelming, just how to stay on top of it all. So I would really like to establish more places where people feel like they can talk to their peers and feel comfortable and not feel like they're being sold to from vendors or being-- >> genuine, authentic basically, a place where it's not going to be a sales pitch, they can dig in and learn. >> Yeah, exactly. I think It's really important to hold onto the technical quality, and the excellence of what the CNCF provides as well. Without that, everything else, I love this community stuff, it's fantastic, it's really good fun, but it comes down to the technical, this is actually sold for technical and business problem. >> Yeah, great social component, but you got to keep your eye on the prize, get the code out there. >> Yeah, I mean, it's not to say that code is the only thing that matters, but we want to make sure that, people come to, you know, how many people here today are spending three days of their lives with us because they get actual value out of what's happening here. And as long as people keep coming, that shows that there is value there. >> And then the success of the ecosystem, we want to look back and see, these were startups, these are ecosystem partners, big, small medium, and large, they've been successful. That success outcome is really key to what you're working on. Making that successful, it's hard. You guys are growing so fast, give it peek behind the curtain, but CNCF, you went from 4,000 people, I know the thing was just in China, which is exploding with growth, in China, open-source contribution and consumption, you got that exploding. You got the event, 8,000 people. Is the team busting out at the seams right now? I mean, share some inside baseball around, what's going on inside the CNCF, are you guys running hot? What's it like? >> It's crazy, right? Nobody could've predicted how fast this has all grown. And the team is, so the reason I joined the CNCF is because, number one, the growth is there, but number two, I really think the team have really good intentions. And even though there's a lot of work to be done, I think people really have their heart in the right place and are trying to do the right thing for the community. And China is definitely an area that we're investing in on a personal level. I'm taking Mandarin classes to try and improve my Mandarin so that we can, I can actually go to China and make sure that these companies are part of this as well. There are so many things in China that are really advanced and mature, but really sophisticated Kubernetes. But it's so separate from, I feel like it's very separate from the stuff that we see in North America. So China is definitely an area that I'm looking out for. But in terms of the team, I think that we want to do a lot, but at the same time, the CNCF is never going to be like, a thousand person organization, let's talk again in 50 years time and maybe it will be a huge organization. But at the moment, I don't believe the CNCF is going to be a huge organization. So we do rely very heavily on our volunteers, our community, the good will of partners, exactly. >> Well we really appreciate the support of CNCF. Dan has been fantastic to work with We've seen the vision from day one, we saw him in China at Alibaba event last year. We saw the work you guys are doing. You're doing the work and it shows. So congratulations and good luck on your new assignment and-- >> Thank you. Dan is my boss and he's always been incredibly optimistic and energetic and has so much belief in what we're doing. >> He's smart, he gets it-- >> He's very smart. >> He's agile, bring a little DevOps, agility, to the table, right? (chuckles) You know. >> Exactly, you know, he's great, and Chris as well is a super community minded and thinking. >> You guys got a great team. Congratulations and thanks for coming on and sharing your insight-- >> Thank you-- >> Into the CNCF ecosystem. The ecosystem, the open source communities, is the key persona, the key target, but this is impacting IT and developers. This is why Kubernetes is rising, you're seeing real impact with Cloud computing, Cloud scale, Cloud Native, it's a really interesting time and this is proof of the ecosystem. We're here in the Kube coverage here in Seattle. I'm John Furrier and stay with us for more coverage after this short break.

>> It's been great. >> Robert Herjavec. >> I mean, you guys are excited where you are, no? >> Dancing with the Stars, of course. >> His CUBE alumni. (techno music) Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018 brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. (crowd talking) >> And welcome back to our live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, here for three days of wall to wall coverage, 8,000 people up from 4,000 last year. Growing Kubernetes and the Cloud Native ecosystem around KubeCon. Next two guests, John Morello, CTO of Twistlock, hot start-up to the news. And Nanda Kumar, who's a Fellow Systems engineer at Verizon's Global Technology Service. Guys, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. Thanks for having us. >> Congratulations on your news and Kelsey wearing your shirt on theCUBE earlier. (they laugh) >> Thanks for having us. >> So take a minute to explain what you guys do, your story, you guys got to lot of hot things happening. Take a minute to talk about the company's value-- >> Yeah, sure, so we've been around for about four years now or going on four years. We're kind of the first company in this space that's really focused on cloud native cybersecurity. So, the idea is not just to take the existing capabilities that you've had on traditional systems and kind of retrofit them onto this new platform. But really to leverage the way that the cloud native space works, to be able to do security in a different and hopefully a more effective way. Cloud native has this notion of immutability and being able to take the same artifact from development to staging to production. And that enables us to do things in a security fashion that you really haven't been able to do in the past. Like actually be able to enforce security controls at the very beginning of the life cycle of the app. To be able to ensure consistency in your compliance posture all the way through production. And then as we learn things at runtime, to be able to signal that knowledge back to the developer, so they can actually improve the security application in the beginning. We basically have a platform that gives you those capabilities, vulnerability management, compliance, runtime defense, and firewalling across VMs, containers, and serverless across any clouds you have. We're not specific to any one cloud provider-- >> Is like telemetry coming back to the developer in real time? >> Yeah, basically as an example, when you have an application that's deployed, in the old world you as the developer would give the app to an operator, they would deploy it, and maybe weeks later, somebody would scan it, and they'd say you've got these vulnerabilities and then they have to go back and tell somebody to go and fix them. There's a lot of time where you're exposed, there's a lot of cost with that operation. The way that we're able to do it for the vulnerability case is as the developer builds the application, every build they do, Twistlock can scan that and see the vulnerabilities and actually enforce that as a quality gate and say if you've got critical vulnerabilities, you have to fix 'em before you progress. And then as you take that application and move that into test and staging and production, we create this dynamic runtime model that describes basically an implicit allow list of what's normal behaviors. So you don't have to tell us that my web server normally runs in Gen X and listens on port 80, we learn that automatically. We create this reference model where you can understand what's normal and then we automatically prevent anomalies. So unlike that traditional world of security where you had to have a whole bunch of manual rules that try to blacklist every thing that was bad, (John Furrier laughs) we just say, we learn what's good and only allow that. >> It's predictive and prescriptive in one. >> Yeah, exactly. >> What's the role here with Kubernetes, how do you fit into the Kubernetes standardization, momentum? >> For us, we've kind of pre-dated the rise of Kubernetes in some ways, and really supported Kubernetes from the very beginning when the project became popular. Our platform is designed to work as a native cloud native app itself, so when you deploy Twistlock, you run the Twistlock console, our management service and API controller. All that's run just as a cloud native app. You deploy as a replication controller. When you deploy Twistlock defender, our agent effective error, containerized agents to all the nodes where you're writing compute jobs, you run that as a Damon set. So for us, not only do we protect the platform, but we just are a part of the platform. There's nothing abnormal that you have to do. You deploy it and manage it like you would any other Kubernetes application. >> All right, Nanda, let's pull you into the conversation here. >> Sure. Verizon, obviously most people know, explain what your group does, how cloud native fits into what you're doing. >> I'm part of the Global Technology Services organization. Verizon, as you probably know, is a mixed bag of different types of businesses brought together, wireless being the most prominent one that most of you know about it. But we also have other solutions, like our file solutions. And recently with our acquisition of Yahoo, which is gold, and so forth. Verizon is actually on a major transformation journey. Our transformation journey spans around a five year program. We are in year number three of this transformation and cloud native and cloud technology is a very foundational aspect for us as part of this transformation. I was just chatting with John earlier. Opportunity like this doesn't come that often because we are in a perfect intersection of where automation and Verizon is doing a cloud migration and then you have these cloud native technologies that have been made available. Where it's Kubernetes, container, and so forth. So that mesh of the opportunity to migrate. And as you migrate, you're taking advantage of these technologies, and modernizing your application stack is a big win. >> Okay, can you connect for us the intersection of what you were just talking about and 5G, which is you know, really going to be a huge impact on everything happening in telecommunications. >> Yeah, the whole idea about 5G for us is it's not just the next generation of technology. It's all about the human element ability of it. Basically it means we want to make sure that the technology is used to solve real human problems and the technology is capable of doing that. Be it whether it's a life science or be it in transportation and so forth. We really want to make sure that the technology is being used to solve real human problems and to enable the consumption of this technology. We won't take advantage of cloud native services to support it. >> Help boil it down for us because, just in general, you say even domestically, I think it's like 40% of the U.S. population doesn't have access to broadband. Those of us at the conference here understand that wireless isn't always reliable. 5G silver bullet, everybody's going to have infinite bandwidth everywhere, right? >> Absolutely. (Stu laughs) And that's the valued proposition of the technology that it brings to the table. I know the spread of the technology is going to vary depending upon the commercialization of the product, the solution, and so forth. But the reality is in the new world that we live in, it is not just one piece of technology that's going to make it. It's going to be a mesh of the new technologies like 5G with a combination of WiFi and so forth. All of this coming together. It all comes down to fundamentally what are the use cases or what type of solutions are you going to go after and how it's going to make sense. >> How has cloud native in this transformation changed how you guys make investments? Obviously, the security equation's paramount. Central to the that, lot of data. How is the investments and how you guys are building out changed? Obviously you're looking at re-imagining operations, security, et cetera et cetera. How's that going to shape for you guys-- >> One of the things that Nanda and I were talking about earlier that not because of cloud native but it's enabled by cloud native. I think you look at almost all organizations today, and to reuse that phrase that Andreessen quoted about softwaring the world. It really is a true thing. Unlike in the past where IT had been this cost center that most organizations sought to strangle out and reduce as much as possible, I think most, at least modern companies that will be successful in the future, realize that that's part of their competitive advantage. It's not just about providing an app because your competitor has an app, it's about providing a better experience so that you're driving more revenue, having a better relationship, a longer term deeper relationship with that customer. Like we were talking about, in his case, if they build kind of a minimal application or minimal experience for their customers, their customers may choose to go to AT&T or whomever else if they can feel like hey, it's easier for me to work with them. I get better data, I can use my systems more easily. If you have that inflection point where people are having to really invest in building better software, better industry specific software, you need those tools of mass innovation to do that. And that's what cloud native really is. It's about being able to take and innovate and iterate on those innovations much more rapidly than you've been able to do in the past. And so it's really this confluence of those two trends that make this space as big as it is. That's why we have so many people here at KubeCon. >> Oh, you go faster too. The investment in apps, your applications, faster. And your talking about your security solution replaces the old way of hey, is there a problem, we'll patch it. >> It also has to get away from that approach where people took in the past where security was always this friction. It was this impediment, you know, you wanted to deploy something and you had to go through the security review and create all this rules and it was a hassle and slowed things down. If that's your approach to security, you're going to be at a fundamental conflict to this new approach. >> I think you'll be out of business personally, I think that ship has sailed, that's dead. We see the breaches every day, you see on all the dark webs who've been harvesting all that. IoT though is a different kind of animal. How are you guys looking at the IoT equation because that's a good use case for cloud? You can push now compute to the edge, you don't have to move data around. Certainly you guys are in the telecom business, you know what that means, so latency matters. How are you looking at the edge, IoT, and where does security fit into that? >> In terms of IoT, I think as you mentioned, there are going to be use cases where IoT's going to be very critical. There are two paradigms to the concept of the mobile edge compute. One is for the IoT use cases, the other could be even for like AR/VR is a good example. You want the compute to be so fast where you want responses immediately based on the location you are and so forth. So that's a very important foundation that we're working on and making that a reality for our organization to come use it. And of course any solution that we provide, security needs to be baked into it, because that's going to be foundation for how to-- >> Back to your 5G point, that's great back haul too for those devices. That one at least. If they want to send data back or interface with the edge, and power and compute, you need power and connectivity. >> Yep, exactly, very true. >> What's next, I guess? If you look forward, where's this journey going? How does this partnership help solve things? >> I think the key to any successful transformation is you got to take into consideration your current landscape. You certainly can have a broad vision of where the future is and so forth, but if you can't build the bridge between where we are and where we need to go, that's going to be a very challenging space so when you look at the cloud native technologies, we look at making it operational efficiency for us. In terms of how do we do our operations, like the earlier question we talked about, what is changing for us? Our operation's getting better. Our security portion is getting better because we're now shifting more of this to left. Which means as the workloads are being built and so forth. We're taking into consideration how it's going to run, where it's going to run and so forth. So that's going to create the savings and operational efficiency, which then allows us to take that and transform it into how do we focus on more modern technologies and modern solutions and so forth. >> Customer satisfaction. >> And customer satisfaction. >> Those are the top line business for every new model. >> So I got to ask, how is it going with Twistlock? Where's their role in your transformation? It's on the security side? >> Mm-hmm. >> Where do they play into your mix? >> So when we rolled out our solution for our Kubernetes platform, we certainly want to make sure that, to John's earlier point, where we can shift left and really look at security wholistically. And the only way you could do that is you need to capture the essence or integrate security as the project's being built. Because today we do have a security portion, but it's kind of where you have it during the development phase or during operations or doing it on time. You're not able to stitch it together. But with container and Kubernetes, you now have the advantage of really knowing what is end to end. And that is where our partnership with Twistlock has to be able to oversee that and provide that insight on what is running, where it's running, what levels exist, and how do we fix it. >> It kind of makes sense too. We've talked for years, the perimeter is dead. You guys are addressing security upfront at the application level where it's coding. This is working out for you guys well? >> Yep, and that's been a big shift in fact for why they've been successful with this transformation. Because we know have inside steward and everybody in the organization has a line off-site to what's going on, where things are running and so forth. It's been a great partnership. >> John, talk about this dynamic 'cause this is really kind of compelling because we've heard, "Oh, yeah, we're throwing everything "against the wall in security." And everyone always says, "Hey, the perimeter is dead "and you got to start with security in mind from day one." Well, I mean, what is day one? The minute you start coding, right? >> I get your overall point about the perimeter being dead. I would actually rephrase it a bit and say, "The perimeter being dissolved." And I think that's really a more probably accurate way to look at it. What used to be this very tightly defined like, we deploy things in this network or even VPC and it's got this control around it. Whereas a lot of customers today we see choosing an intentional multi-cloud strategy. They want to preserve the ability to have some leverage, not just with Amazon, but with Azure, or with Google, or whomever it may be on-premises. And when you have that model where you've got infrastructure and multiple regions, multiple different providers, you no longer have that very clean separation between what's yours and what's kind of out on the outside. And so one of the things that we really think is important is to be able to bring the perimeter to the application. So the way that we look at protecting the application is around the app itself, regardless of what the underlying compute platform is, the cloud, the region, it's really about protecting the app. You learn how those different microservices normally communicate with each other. You only allow that normal good communication unless you can really constrain a blast radius if you do have some kind of compromise in the future. And the minute you really try to mitigate that compromise is to again find those vulnerabilities as you develop the app, and prevent them in development before they ever get out to production. >> And that's a super smart approach, I love that. I think it's a winner, congratulations. Final question, what's the prediction for multi-cloud in 2019? Since you brought it up, multi-cloud seems to be the hot thing. What's your prediction 2019? It becomes a conversation? It becomes practice? >> I would say at this point, it already is practice in most organizations. And I would say that in 2019, you'll see that become something that's accepted not just as an option but as really the preferred, the better operational model. So you're able to choose technology platforms and operational approaches that are designed to work in a model in which you have multiple providers. Because you have a dependency layer that you can take now with Kubernetes and containers that's universal across those. Theoretically, you could have always taken a VM you put in ager and moved it to AWS, but it was really difficult and painful and hard to do that. If you do that well with Kubernetes, it's really pretty straightforward to deploy an application across multiple providers or multiple regions of the same provider even. And I think you'll see that become a more real thing in 2019 because it gives you as a company, or you as a customer, more leverage to be able to choose the services and negotiate the rates that you want with your provider. >> And if you move security to the app level like you guys are doing, you take away all that extra work around how to send policy and make it dynamic. >> Exactly. Our customers may have one Twistlock environment that manages things in Azure and AWS and GCP and on-premises and that's fine because we care about protecting the app not the interlying infrastructure. >> You agree? >> Absolutely, I think that's going to be the case even from our perspective. You're always going to look for where is the best place around these workloads and in a cost-effective way and secure manner. And as long as you're a single-controlled plane that you can manage it, I think the multi-cloud is going to be the ideal-- >> Make it easier to operate, standard language for developers, lock in security at the front end. >> That's right. >> Good stuff. Guys thanks for coming out. >> Sure. >> Appreciate the insight. Smart commentary here on security, cloud native, Kubernetes, I'll break it down here on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, stay with us. More day one coverage of three days of live coverage here in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live From Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the cloud-native computing foundation and antiquo system partners. >> Okay welcome back everyone it's live coverage here at theCUBE at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon here at Seattle for 2018 event. 8,000 people, up from 4,000 last year. I'm John Furrier with Stuart Miniman, my cohost. Next guest Daniel Berg, distinguished engineer at IBM Cloud Kubernetes Service. Daniel, great to have you on. >> Thank you. >> Thanks for joining us. Good to see you. I'll say you guys know a lot about Kubernetes. You've been using it for a while. >> Yes very much. >> Blue mix, you guys did a lot of cloud, a lot of open source. What's going on with the service? Take a minute to explain your role, what you guys are doing, how it all fits into the big picture here. >> Yeah yeah yeah so I'm the distinguished engineer over top of the architecture and everything around the Kubernetes Service. I'm backed by a crazy wicked awesome team. Right? They are amazing. They're the real wizards behind the curtain right? I'm the curtain is basically all it is. But we've done a phenomenal amount of work on IKS. We've delivered it. We've delivered some amazing HA capabilities, highly reliable but what's really great about it is the service that we provide to all of our customers? We're actually running all of IBM cloud on it, so all of our services, the Watson service, the cloud dataset base services, our keepertech service, identity management, billing, all of it, it's all running. First of all it's moving to containers and Kubernetes and it's running on our managed service. >> So just to make sure I get it all out there, I know we talked to a lot of other folks at IBM. I want to make sure we table it. You guys are highly contributing to the upstream. >> Daniel: Yes. >> As well as running your workload and other customers' workloads on Kubernetes within the IBM cloud. >> Unmodified right? I mean we're taking upstream and we're packed in and the key thing that we're doing is we're providing it as a managed service with our extensions into it. But yeah we're running, we've hit problems over the last 18, 20 months right? There's lots of problems. >> Take us into people always wonder what happens when this reaches real scale. So what experiences, what can you share with us? >> So when you really start hitting like real scale, real scale being like 500, 1,000, couple thousand nodes, right, then you're hitting real scale there. And we're dealing with tens of thousands of clusters, right? You start hitting different pressure points inside of Kubernetes, things that most customers are not going to hit and they're gnarly problems, right? They're really complicated problems. One of the most recent ones that we hit is just scaling problems with CRDs. Now that we've been promoting heavily CRDs, customized Kubernetes, which is a good thing. Well, it starts to hit another pressure point that you then have to start working through scaling of Kubernetes, scaling of the master, dealing with scheduling problems. Once you start getting into these larger numbers that's when you start hitting these pressure points and yes we are making changes and then we're contributing those back up to the upstream. >> One of the things we've been hearing in the interviews here and obviously in the coverage is that the maturation of Kubernetes, great, check, you guys are pushing these pressure points, which is great cause you're actually using it. What are the key visibility points that you're seeing where value's being created, and two what're some of the key learnings that you guys have had? I mean, so you're starting to see some visibility around where people can have value in the stack. Well, or not stack, but in the open source and create value and then learnings that you guys have had. >> Right, right, right. I mean for us the key value here is first of all providing a certified Kubernetes platform, right? I mean, Kubernetes has matured. It has gotten better. It's very mature. You can run production workloads on it no doubt. We've got many many examples of it so providing a certified managed solution around that where customers can focus on their application and not so much the platform, highly valuable right? Because it's certified, they can code to Kubernetes. We always push our teams both internal and external focus on Kubernetes, focus on building a Kube native experience cause that's going to give you the best portability ability moving whether you're using IBM cloud or another cloud provider right? It's a fully certified platform for that. >> Dan, you know, it's one thing if you're building on that platform but what experience do you have of taking big applications and moving it on there? I remember a year or two ago it seemed like it was sexy to talk about lift and shift and most people understand it's like really you just can't take what you had and take advantage of it. You need to be, it might be part of the journey but I'm sure you've got a lot of experiences there. >> Yeah we've got, I mean, we've seen almost every type of workload now cause a lot of people were asking Well, what kind of workloads can you containerize? Can you move to Kubernetes? Based on what we've seen pretty much all of them can move so and we do see a lot of the whole lifT and shift and just put it on Kubernetes but they really don't get the value and we've seen some really crazy uses of Kubernetes where they're on Kubernetes but they're not really, like what I say Kube native. They're not adhering to the Kubernetes principles and practices and therefore they don't get the full value so they're on Kubernetes and they get some of the okay we're doing some health checking but they don't have the proper probes right? They don't have the proper scheduling hints. They don't have the proper quotas. They don't have the proper limits. So they're not properly using Kubernetes so therefore they don't get the full advantage out of it. So what we're seeing a lot though is that customers do that lift and shift, but ultimately they have to, they have to rewrite a lot of what they're doing. To get the most value, and this is true of cloud and cloud native, ultimately at the end of the day if you truly want to get the value of cloud and cloud native you're going to do a rewrite eventually and that will be full cloud native. You're going to take advantage of the APIs and you're going to follow the best practices and the concepts of the platform. >> Containers give you some luxury to play with workloads that you don't maybe have time to migrate over but this brings up the point of the question that we hear a lot and I want to get your thoughts on this because the world's getting educated very fast on cloud native and rearchitecting, replatforming, whatever word you want to use, reimagining their infrastructure. How do you see multicloud driving the investment or architectural thinking with customers? What're they, what're some of the things that you see that are important for 2019 as people are saying you know what? My IT is transforming, we know that, we're going to be a multicloud world. I've got to make investments. >> You definitely have to make those. >> What are those investments architecturally, how should they lay those out? What're your thoughts? >> So my thought there is ultimately, you've got focus on a standardized platform that you're going to use across those because multicloud it's here. It's here to stay whether it's just on premises and you're doing off premises or you're doing on premises and multiple cloud vendors and that's where everybody's going and it's going to be give it another six, 12 months. That's going to be the practice. That's going to be what everybody does. You're not one cloud provider, you're multiple. So standardization, community, massive. Do you have a community around that? You can't vendor lock in if you're going to be doing portability across all of these cloud providers. Standardization governance around the platform the certification so Kubernetes you have a certified process that you certify every version so you at least know I'm using a vendor that's certified. Right? I have some promise that my application's going to run on that. Now is that as simple as well I picked a certified Kubernetes and therefore I should be able to run my application. Not so simple. >> And operationally, they're running CICD, you got to run that over the top. >> You've got to have a common, yeah, You've got to have a common observability model across all of that, what you're logging, what're you're monitoring, what's your CICD process. You've got to have a common CICD process that's going to go across all of those cloud providers, right, all of your cloud environments. >> Dan, take us inside. How're we doing with security? It's one of those sort of choke points. Go back to containers when they first started through to Kubernetes. Are we doing well on security now and where do we need to go? >> Are we doing well on it? Yes we are. I think we're doing extremely well on security. Do we have room for improvement? Absolutely everybody does. I've just spent the last eight months doing compliance and compliance work. That's not necessarily security but it dips into it quite often right? Security is a central focus. Anybody doing public cloud, especially providers, we're highly focused on security and you've got to secure your platforms. I think with Kubernetes and providing first of all proper isolation and customers need to understand what levels of isolation am I getting? What levels of sharing am I getting? Are those well documented and I understand what my providers providing me. But the community's improving. Things that we're seeing around like Kubernetes and what they're doing with secrets and proper encryption, encryption, notary with the image repositories and everything. All that plays into providing a more secure platform so we're getting there, things are getting better. >> Well there was a recent vulnerability that just got patched rather fast. >> Daniel: There was. >> It seemed like it moved really quick. What do we learn from that? >> Well we've learned that Kubernetes itself is not perfect, right? Actually I would be a little bit concerned if we didn't find a security hole because then that means there's not enough adoption, where we just haven't found the problems. Yes we found a security hole. The thing is the community addressed it, communicated it, and all of the vendors provided a patch very quickly and many of them like with IKS we rolled out the patch to all of our clusters, all of our customers, they didn't have to do anything and I believe Google did the same thing so these are things that the community is improving, we're maturing and we're handling those security problems. >> Dan, talk about the flexibility that Kubernetes provides. Certainly you mentioned earlier the value that can be extracted if you do it properly. Some people like to roll their own Kubernetes or they want the managed service because it streamlines things a bit faster. When do I want management? When do I want to roll my own? Is there kind of a feel? Is it more of a staffing thing? Is it more scale? Is it more application, like financial services might want to roll their own? We're starting to maybe see a different industry. What's your take on this? >> Well obviously I'm going to be super biased on this. But my belief there is that I mean obviously if you're going to be doing on premises and you need a lot of flexibility. You need flexibility of the kernel you may need to roll your own right? Because at that point you can control and drive a lot of the flexibility in there, understanding that you take on the responsibility of deploying and managing and updating your platform, which means generally that's an investment you're going to make that takes away from your critical investment of your developers on your business so personally I would say first and foremost... >> It's a big investment. >> It's a massive investment. I mean look at what the vendor, look at IKS. I've got a large team. They live and breathe Kubernetes. Live and breathe every single release, test it, validate it, roll updates. We're experts at updating Kubernetes without any down time. That's a massive investment. Let the experts do it. Focus on your business. >> John: And that's where the manage piece shines. >> That's where the mange piece absolutely shines. >> Okay so the question about automation comes up. I want to get your thoughts on the future state of Kubernetes because you know we go down the cloud native devops model. We want to automate away things. >> Daniel: Yes. >> Kubernetes is that some differentiation but I don't want to manage clusters. I don't want to manage it. I want it automated. >> Daniel: Yeah. >> So is it automating faster? Is it going to be automated? What's your take on the automation component? When and where and how? >> Well, I mean through the manage services I mean it's cloud native. It's all API driven, CLIs. You've got one command and you're scaling up a cluster. You get a cluster with one command, you can go across multiple zones with one command. Your cluster needs to be updated you call one command and you go home. >> John: That sounds automated to me. >> I mean that's fully and that's the only way that we can scale that. We're talking about thousands of updates on a daily basis. We're talking about tens of thousands of clusters fully automated. >> A lot of people have been talking the past couple of weeks around this notion of well all containers might have security boundary issues. Let's put a VM around it maybe stay for is it maybe just more of a fix? Cause why do I want to have a VM or is it better to just keep native core? Is that real conversation or is that fud? >> I mean it is a real conversation because people are starting to understand what are the proper isolation levels with my cluster. My personal belief around that is you really only need that level of isolation, those mini VMs, around your containers. Running a single container in a single VM seems overkill to me. However if you're running a multitenant cluster with untrusted content you better be taking extra precautions. First and foremost I would say don't do it because you're adding risk, right? But if you're going to do it yes, you might start looking at those types but if you're running a cluster in its an isolated cluster with full isolation levels all the way down to the hardware in a trusted environment, trust being it's your organization, it's your code. I think it's overkill then. >> Future of Kubernetes what happens next? People are hot on this. You've got service meshes, a lot of other goodness. People are really trying to stay with the pace, a lot of change and again a lot of education. But it's not a stack like I hear words like Kubernetes stack and the CNCM has a stack. So it's not necessarily a stack per se. >> Right it's not. >> Clarify the linguistic language around what we're talking about here. What's a stack? What's not a stack? It's all services. >> Look at it this way. So Kubernetes has done a phenomenal job as a project in the community to state exactly what it's trying to achieve, right? It is a platform. It is platform for running cloud native applications. That is what it is and it allows vendors to build on top of it. It allows customers to build on it and it's not trying to grow larger than that. It's just trying to improve overall that platform and that's what's fantastic about Kubernetes because that allows us and when you see the stack it's really cloud native. What pieces am I going to add to that awesome platform to make my life even better? Knative, Istio, a service measure. I'm going to put that on because I'm evolving, I'm doing more microservices. I'm going to build that on top of it. Inside of IBM we did cloud foundry enterprise environment, CFEE, cloud foundry on Kubernetes. Why not, right? It's a perfect combination. It's just going up the level and it's providing more usability, better different prescriptive uses of Kubernetes but Kubernetes is the platform. >> When I think about the composability of services it's not a stack. It's lego blocks. >> Daniel: Yeah it's pieces. I'm using different pieces here, there, everywhere. >> All right well Daniel thanks for coming on, sharing great insight. Congratulations on your success running major workloads within IBM for you guys and the customers. Again just the beginning, Kubernetes the beginning. Congratulations. Here inside the Cube we're breaking down all the action. Three days of live coverage. We're at day one at KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break.