>> From around the globe, it's theCUBE with coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and Ecosystem Partners. >> Hi and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon 2020 in Europe, of course the virtual edition. I'm Stu Miniman and happy to welcome back to the program one of the keynote speakers, he's also a board member of the CNCF, Vijoy Pandey who is the vice president and chief technology officer for Cloud at Cisco. Vijoy, nice to see you and thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you Stu, and nice to see you again. It's a strange setting to be in but as long as we are both health, everything is good. >> Yeah, it's still a, we still get to be together a little bit even though while we're apart, we love the engagement and interaction that we normally get through the community but we just have to do it a little bit differently this year. So we're going to get to your keynote. We've had you on the program to talk about "Network, Please Evolve", been watching that journey. But why don't we start it first, you know, you've had a little bit of change in roles and responsibility. I know there's been some restructuring at Cisco since the last time we got together. So give us the update on your role. >> Yeah, so that, yeah let's start there. So I've taken on a new responsibility. It's VP of Engineering and Research for a new group that's been formed at Cisco. It's called Emerging Tech and Incubation. Liz Centoni leads that and she reports into Chuck. The role, the charter for this team, this new team, is to incubate the next bets for Cisco. And, if you can imagine, it's natural for Cisco to start with bets which are closer to its core business, but the charter for this group is to mover further and further out from Cisco's core business and takes this core into newer markets, into newer products, and newer businesses. I am running the engineering and research for that group. And, again, the whole deal behind this is to be a little bit nimble, to be a little startupy in nature, where you bring ideas, you incubate them, you iterate pretty fast and you throw out 80% of those and concentrate on the 20% that make sense to take forward as a venture. >> Interesting. So it reminds me a little bit, but different, I remember John Chambers a number of years back talking about various adjacencies, trying to grow those next, you know, multi-billion dollar businesses inside Cisco. In some ways, Vijoy, it reminds me a little bit of your previous company, very well known for, you know, driving innovation, giving engineering 20% of their time to work on things. Give us a little bit of insight. What's kind of an example of a bet that you might be looking at in the space? Bring us inside a little bit. >> Well that's actually a good question and I think a little bit of that comparison is, are those conversations that taking place within Cisco as well as to how far out from Cisco's core business do we want to get when we're incubating these bets. And, yes, my previous employer, I mean Google X actually goes pretty far out when it comes to incubations. The core business being primarily around ads, now Google Cloud as well, but you have things like Verily and Calico and others which are pretty far out from where Google started. And the way we are looking at these things within Cisco is, it's a new muscle for Cisco so we want to prove ourselves first. So the first few bets that we are betting upon are pretty close to Cisco's core but still not fitting into Cisco's BU when it comes to go-to-market alignment or business alignment. So while the first bets that we are taking into account is around API being the queen when it comes to the future of infrastructure, so to speak. So it's not just making our infrastructure consumable as infrastructure's code, but also talking about developer relevance, talking about how developers are actually influencing infrastructure deployments. So if you think about the problem statement in that sense, then networking needs to evolve. And I talked a lot about this in the past couple of keynotes where Cisco's core business has been around connecting and securing physical endpoints, physical I/O endpoints, whatever they happen to be, of whatever type they happen to be. And one of the bets that we are, actually two of the bets that we are going after is around connecting and securing API endpoints wherever they happen to be of whatever type they happen to be. And so API networking, or app networking, is one big bet that we're going after. Our other big bet is around API security and that has a bunch of other connotations to it where we think about security moving from runtime security where traditionally Cisco has played in that space, especially on the infrastructure side, but moving into API security which is only under the developer pipeline and higher up in the stack. So those are two big bets that we're going after and as you can see, they're pretty close to Cisco's core business but also very differentiated from where Cisco is today. And once when you prove some of these bets out, you can walk further and further away or a few degrees away from Cisco's core as it exists today. >> All right, well Vijoy, I mentioned you're also on the board for the CNCF, maybe let's talk a little bit about open source. How does that play into what you're looking at for emerging technologies and these bets, you know, so many companies, that's an integral piece, and we've watched, you know really, the maturation of Cisco's journey, participating in these open source environments. So help us tie in where Cisco is when it comes to open source. >> So, yeah, so I think we've been pretty deeply involved in open source in our past. We've been deeply involved in Linux foundational networking. We've actually chartered FD.io as a project there and we still are. We've been involved in OpenStack. We are big supporters of OpenStack. We have a couple of products that are on the OpenStack offering. And as you all know, we've been involved in CNCF right from the get go as a foundational member. We brought NSM as a project. It's sandbox currently. We're hoping to move it forward. But even beyond that, I mean we are big users of open source. You know a lot of us has offerings that we have from Cisco and you would not know this if you're not inside of Cisco, but Webex, for example, is a big, big user of linger D right from the get go from version 1.0. But we don't talk about it, which is sad. I think for example, we use Kubernetes pretty deeply in our DNAC platform on the enterprise site. We use Kubernetes very deeply in our security platforms. So we are pretty deep users internally in all our SAS products. But we want to press the accelerator and accelerate this whole journey towards open source quite a bit moving forward as part of ET&I, Emerging Tech and Incubation as well. So you will see more of us in open source forums, not just the NCF but very recently we joined the Linux Foundation for Public Health as a premier foundational member. Dan Kohn, our old friend, is actually chartering that initiative and we actually are big believers in handling data in ethical and privacy preserving ways. So that's actually something that enticed us to join Linux Foundation for Public Health and we will be working very closely with Dan and the foundational companies there to, not just bring open source, but also evangelize and use what comes out of that forum. >> All right. Well, Vijoy, I think it's time for us to dig into your keynote. We've spoken with you in previous KubeCons about the "Network, Please Evolve" theme that you've been driving on, and big focus you talked about was SD-WAN. Of course anybody that been watching the industry has watched the real ascension of SD-WAN. We've called it one of those just critical foundational pieces of companies enabling Multicloud, so help us, you know, help explain to our audience a little bit, you know, what do you mean when you talk about things like CloudNative, SD-WAN, and how that helps people really enable their applications in the modern environment? >> Yeah, so, well we we've been talking about SD-WAN for a while. I mean, it's one of the transformational technologies of our time where prior to SD-WAN existing, you had to stitch all of these MPLS labels and actual data connectivity across to your enterprise or branch and SD-WAN came in and changed the game there. But I think SD-WAN as it exists today is application-alaware. And that's one of the big things that I talk about in my keynote. Also, we've talked about how NSM, the other side of the spectrum, is how NSM, or network service mesh, has actually helped us simplify operational complexities, simplify the ticketing and process hell that any developer needs to go through just to get a multicloud, multicluster app up and running. So the keynote actually talked about bringing those two things together where we've talked about using NSM in the past, in chapter one and chapter two, ah chapter two, no this is chapter three and at some point I would like to stop the chapters. I don't want this to be like, like an encyclopedia of networking (mumbling) But we are at chapter three and we are talking about how you can take the same consumption models that I talked about in chapter two which is just adding a simple annotation in your CRD and extending that notion of multicloud, multicluster wires within the components of our application but extending it all the way down to the user in an enterprise. And as you saw an example, Gavin Russom is trying to give a keynote holographically and he's suffering from SD-WAN being application alaware. And using this construct of a simple annotation, we can actually make SD-WAN CloudNative. We can make it application-aware, and we can guarantee the SLOs that Gavin is looking for in terms of 3D video, in terms of file access or audio just to make sure that he's successful and Ross doesn't come in and take his place. >> Well I expect Gavin will do something to mess things up on his own even if the technology works flawly. You know, Vijoy the modernization journey that customers are on is a neverending story. I understand the chapters need to end on the current volume that you're working on. But, you know, we'd love to get your view point. You talk about things like service mesh. It's definitely been a hot topic of conversation for the last couple of years. What are you hearing from your customers? What are some of the the kind of real challenges but opportunities that they see in today's CloudNative space? >> In general, service meshes are here to stay. In fact, they're here to proliferate to some degree and we are seeing a lot of that happening where not only are we seeing different service meshes coming into the picture through various open source mechanisms. You've got Istio there, you've got linger D, you've got various proprietary notions around control planes like App Mesh from Amazon. There's Console which is an open source project But not part of (mumbles) today. So there's a whole bunch of service meshes in terms of control planes coming in on volumes becoming a de facto side car data plane, whatever you would like to call it, de facto standard there which is good for the community I would say. But this proliferation of control planes is actually a problem. And I see customers actually deploying a multitude of service meshes in their environment. And that's here to stay. In fact, we are seeing a whole bunch of things that we would use different tools for. Like API Gate was in the past. And those functions are actually rolling into service meshes. And so I think service meshes are here to stay. I think the diversity of some service meshes is here to stay. And so some work has to be done in bringing these things together and that's something that we are trying to focus in on all as well because that's something that our customers are asking for. >> Yeah, actually you connected for me something I wanted to get your viewpoint on. Dial back you know 10, 15 years ago and everybody would say, "Ah, you know, I really want to have single pane of glass "to be able to manage everything." Cisco's partnering with all of the major cloud providers. I saw, you know, not that long before this event, Google had their Google Cloud show talking about the partnership that you have with Cisco with Google. They have Anthos. You look at Azure has Arc. You know, VMware has Tanzu. Everybody's talking about, really, kind of this multicluster management type of solution out there. And just want to get your viewpoint on this Vijoy is to, you know, how are we doing on the management plane and what do you think we need to do as a industry as a whole to make things better for customers? >> Yeah, but I think this is where I think we need to be careful as an industry, as a community and make things simpler for our customers because, like I said, the proliferation of all of these control planes begs the question, do we need to build something else to bring all of these things together. And I think the SMI apropos from Microsoft is bang on on that front where you're trying to unify at least the consumption model around how you consume these service meshes. But it's not just a question of service meshes. As you saw in the SD-WAN and also going back in the Google discussion that you just, or Google conference that we just offered It's also how SD-WANs are going to interoperate with the services that exist within these cloud silos to some degree. And how does that happen? And there was a teaser there that you saw earlier in the keynote where we are taking those constructs that we talked about in the Google conference and bringing it all the way to a CloudNative environment in the keynote. But I think the bigger problem here is how do we manage this complexity of disparate stacks, whether it's service meshes, whether it's development stacks, or whether it's SD-WAN deployments, how do we manage that complexity? And, single pane of glass is over loaded as a term because it brings in these notions of big, monolithic panes of glass. And I think that's not the way we should be solving it. We should be solving it towards using API simplicity and API interoperability. I think that's where we as a community need to go. >> Absolutely. Well, Vijoy, as you said, you know, the API economy should be able to help on these, you know, multi, the service architecture should allow things to be more flexible and give me the visibility I need without trying to have to build something that's completely monolithic. Vijoy, thanks so much for joining. Looking forward to hearing more about the big bets coming out of Cisco and congratulations on the new role. >> Thank you Stu. It was a pleasure to be here. >> All right, and stay tuned for much more coverage of theCUBE at KubeCon, CloudNativeCon. I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching. (light digital music)

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by RedHat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and its ecosystem partners. >> Stu: Welcome back to theCUBE, I'm Stu Miniman. My cohost for three days of coverage is John Troyer. We're here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon in San Diego, over 12,000 in attendance and happy to welcome back a CUBE alumni and veteran of generations of the stacks that we've seen come together and change over the time, Sheng Liang, who is the co-founder and CEO of Rancher Labs. Thanks so much, great to see you. >> Shang: Thank you Stuart, is very glad to be here. >> All right, so you know Kubernetes, flash to the pan nobody's all that excited about it. I mean, we've seen all these things come and go over the years, Sheng. No but seriously, the excitement is palpable. Every year, you know, so many more people, so many more projects, so much more going on. Help set the stage for you, as to what you see and the importance today of kind of CloudNative in general and you know, this ecosystem specifically. >> Yeah you're so right though, Stuart. Community as a whole and Kubernetes has really come a long way. In the early days, Kubernetes was a uh, you know, somewhat of a technical community, lot of Linux people. But not a whole lot of end users. Not a whole lot of Enterprise customers. I walk in today and just the kind of people I've met, I've probably talked to fifty people already who are just really at the beginning of the show and uh there's a very very large number Enterprise customers. And this does feel like Kubernetes has crossed the chasm and headed in to the mainstream Enterprise market. >> Yeah it's interesting you know I've talked to you know plenty of the people here probably if you brought up things like OpenStack and CloudStack they wouldn't even know what we were talking about. The wave of containerization really seemed to spread far and wide. At Rancher you've done some surveys, give us some of the insight. What are you seeing? You've talked to plenty of customers. Give us where we are with the maturity. >> Definitely, definitely. Enterprise Kubernetes adoption is ready for prime time. You know the So what we're really seeing is some of the early challenges a few years ago a lot of people were having problems with just installing Kubernetes. They were literally just making sure to get people educated about container as a concept. Those have been overcome. Now, uh, we're really facing next generation of growth. And people solve these days solve problems like how do I get my new applications onboarding to Kubernetes. How do I really integrate Kubernetes into my multicloud and hybrid-Cloud strategy? And as Enterprise's need to perform computing in places beyond just the data centers and the cloud, we're also seeing tremendous amount of interest in running Kubernetes on the Edge. So those are some of the major findings of our survey. >> John: That's great. So Sheng I'd love for you to kind of elaborate or elaborate for us where Rancher fits into this. Right. Rancher is, you've been around, you've a mature stack of technology and also some new announcements today so I'd kind of love for you to kind of tell us how you fit in to that landscape you just described. >> Absolutely. This is very exciting and very very fast changing industry. So one of the things that Rancher is able to play very well is we're really able to take work with the community, take the latest and greatest open source technology and actually develop open source products on top this and make that technology useful and consumable for Enterprise at large. So the way we see it, to make Kubernetes work we really need to solve problems at three levels. At the lowest level, the industry need at lot of compliant and compatible certified Kubernetes distros and services. So that's table stakes now. Rancher is a leader in providing CNCF certified Kubernetes distro. We actually provide two of them. One of them is called RKE - Rancher Kubernetes Engine. Something we've been doing it for years. It's really one of the easiest to use and most widely deployed Kubernetes distributions. But we don't force our customers to only use our Kubernetes distribution. Rancher customers can use whatever CNCF certified Kubernetes distribution or Kubernetes services they want. So a lot of our customers use RKE(Rancher Kubernetes Engine) but they also use, when they go to the cloud, they use cloud hosted Kubernetes Services like GKE and EKS. There are really a lot of advantages in using those because cloud providers will help you run these Kubernetes clusters for free. And in many cases they even throw in the infrastructure it takes to run the Kubernetes masters and etcd databases for free. If you're in the cloud, there's really no reason not to be using these Kubernetes services. Now there's one area that Rancher ended up innovating at the Kubernetes distros, despite having these data center focus and cloud focus Kubernetes distros and services. And that is one of our, one of the two big announcements today. And that's called K3S. K3S is a great open source project. It's probably one of the most exciting open source projects in the Kubernetes ecosystem today. And what we did with K3S is we took Kubernetes that's been proven in data center and cloud and we brought it everywhere. So with K3S you can run Kubernetes on a Raspberry Pi. You can run Kubernetes in a surveillance camera. You can run Kubernetes in an ATM machine. You know, we have customers trying to run now Kubernetes in a uh, factory floor. So it really helps us realize our vision of Kubernetes as a new Linux and you run it everywhere. >> Well that's great 'cause you talk about that simplicity that we need and if you start talking about Edge deployment, I don't have the people, I don't have the skillset, and a lot times I don't have the gear, uh, to run that. So you know, help connect the dots as to you know, what led Rancher to do the K3S piece of it and you know, what did we take out? Or what's the differences between K8S and the K3S? >> That's a great question, you know. Even the name "K3S" is actually somewhat a wordplay on K8S You know we kind of cut half of 8 away and you're left with 3. It really happened with some of our early traction we sawing some customers. I remember, in retrospect it wasn't really that long ago. It was like middle of last year, we saw a blog coming out of Chick-fil-A and a group of technical enthusiasts were experimenting with actually running uh, Kubernetes in very, in like Intel Nook servers. You know, they were talking about potentially running three of those servers in every one of their stores and at the time they were using RKE and Rancher Kubernetes Engine to do that. And they run into a lot of issues. I mean to be honest if you think about running Kubernetes in the cloud in the database center, uh these servers have a lot of resources and you also have a dedicated operations teams. You have an SRE to manage them, right? But when you really bring it out into branch offices and Edge computing locations, now all of the sudden, number one, these uh, the software now has to take a lot less resource but also you don't really have SREs monitoring them every day anymore. And you, since these, Kubernetes distro really has to be zero touch and it has to run just like a, you know like a embedded window or Linux server. And that's what K3S was able to accomplish, we were able to really take away lot of the baggage that came with having all the drivers that were necessary to run Kubernetes in the cloud and we were also able to dramatically simplify what it takes to actually start Kubernetes and operate it. >> So unsolicited, I was doing an event right before this one and I asked some people what they looking forward to here at KubeCon. And independently, two different people said, "The thing I'm most excited about is K3S." And I think it's because it's the right slice through Kubernetes. I can run it in my lab. I can run it on my laptop. I can on a stack of Raspberry Pis or Nooks, but I could also run it in production if I, you know I can scale it up >> Stu: Yeah. >> John: And in fact they both got a twinkle in their eye and said well what if this is the future of Kubernetes, like you could take this and you could run it, you know? They were very excited about it. >> Absolutely! I mean, you know, I really think, you know, as a company we survive by, and thrive by delivering the kind of innovation that pushes the market forward right? I mean, we, otherwise people are not going to look at Rancher and say you guys are the originators of Kubernetes technology. So we're very happy to be able to come up with technologies like K3S that effectively greatly broadened the addressable market for everyone. Imagine you were a security vendor and before like all you really got to do is solving security problems. Or if you were a monitoring vendor you were able to solve monitoring problems for a data center and in the cloud. Now with K3S you end up getting to solve the same problems on the Edge and in branch offices. So that's why so many people are so excited about it. >> All right so Sheng you said K3S is one of the announcements this week, what's the rest of the news? >> Yeah so K3S, RKE, and all the GKE, AKS, EKS, they're really the fundamental layer of Kubernetes everywhere. Then on top of that one of the biggest piece of innovation that Rancher labs created is the idea of multi-cluster management. A few years ago it was pretty much of a revolutionary concept. Now it's widely understood. Of course an organization is not going to have just one cluster, they're going to have many clusters. So Rancher is the industry leader for doing multi-cluster management. And these clusters could span clouds, could span data centers, now all the way out to branch offices and the Edge. So we're exhibiting Rancher on the show floor. Everyone, most people I've met here, they know Rancher because of that flash of product. Now our second announcement though is yet another level above Rancher, so what we've seen is in order to really Kubernetes to achieve the next level of adoption in the Enterprise we're seeing you know some of the development teams and especially the less skilled dev ops teams, they're kind of struggling with the learning curve of Kubernetes and also some of the associated technologies around service mesh around Knative, around, you know, CICD, so we created a project called Rio, as in Rio de Janeiro the city. And the nice thing about Rio is it packaged together all these Cloud Native technologies and then we created very easy to use, very simple to understand user experience for developers and dev ops teams. So they no longer have to start with the training course on Kubernetes, on Istio, on Knative, on Tekton, just to get productive. They can pretty much get productive on day one. So that Rio project has hit a very important milestone today, we shipped the beta release for it and we're exhibiting it at the booth as well. >> Well that's great. You know, the beta release of Rio, pulling together a lot of these projects. Can you talk about some folks that, early adopters that have been using them or some folks that have been working with the project? >> Sheng: Yeah absolutely. So I talk about some of the early adoption we're seeing for both K3S and Rio. Uh, what we see the, first of all just the market reception of K3S, as you said, has been tremendous. Couple of even mentioned to you guys today in your earlier interviews. And it is primarily coming from customers who want to run Kubernetes in places you probably haven't quite anticipated before, so I kind of give you two examples. One is actually appliance manufacture. So if you think they used to ship appliances, then you can imagine these appliances come with Linux and they would image their appliance with an OS image with their applications. But what's happening is these applications are becoming so sophisticated they're now talking about running the entire data analytics stack and AI software. So it actually takes Kubernetes not necessarily, because it's one server in a situation of appliance. Kubernetes is not really managing a cluster, but it's managing all the application components and microservices. So they ended up bundling up K3S into their appliance. This is one example. Another example is actually an ISV, that's a very interesting use case as well. So uh, they ship a micro service based application software stack and again their software involves a lot of different complicated components. And they decided to replatform their software on Kubernetes. We've all heard a lot of that! But in their case they have to also ship, they don't just run the software themselves, they have to ship the software to the end users. And most of their end users are not familiar with Kubernetes yet, right? And they don't really want to say, to install our software you go provision the Kubernetes cluster and then you operate it from now on. So what they did is they took K3S and bundled into their application as if it were an application server, almost like a modern day WebLogic and WebSphere, then they shipped the whole thing to their customers. So I thought both of these use cases are really interesting. It really elevates the reach of Kubernetes from just being almost like a cloud platform in the old days to now being an application server. And then I'll also quickly talk about Rio. A lot of interest inside Rio is around really dev ops teams who've had, I mean, we did a survey early on and we found out that a lot of our customers they deploy Kubernetes in services. But they end up building a custom experience on top of their Kubernetes deployment, just so that most of their internal users wouldn't have to take a course on Kubernetes to start using it. So they can just tell that this thing that, this is where my source code is and then every thing from that point on will be automated. So now with Rio they wouldn't have to do that anymore. Effectively Rio is the direct source to URL type of, one step process. And they are able to adopt Rio for that purpose. >> So Sheng, I want to go back to when we started this conversation. You said, you know, the ecosystem growing. That not only, you know, so many vendors here, 129 end users, members of the CNCF. The theme we've been talking about is to really, you know, it's ready for production and people are all embracing it. But to get the vast majority of people, simplicity really needs to come front and center, I think. K3S really punctuates that. What else do we need to do as an ecosystem, you know, Rancher is looking to take a leadership position and help drive this, but what else do you want to see from your peers, the community, overall to help drive this to the promise that it could deliver. >> We really see the adoption of Kubernetes is probably going to wing at three, I mean. We see most organizations go through this three step journey. The first step is you got to install and operate Kubernetes. You know, day one, day two. And I think we've got it down. With K3S it becomes so easy. With GKE it becomes one API call or one simple UI interaction. And CNCS has really stepped up and created a great, you know, compliance certification program, right? So we're not seeing the kind of fragmentation that we saw with some of the other technologies. This is fantastic. Then the second step we see is, which a lot of our customers are going through now, is now you have all the Kubernetes clusters coming from different clouds, different infrastructure, potentially on the Edge. You have a management problem. Now you all of the sudden because we made Kubernetes clusters so easy to obtain you can potentially have a sprawl. If you are not careful you might leave them misconfigured. That could expose a security issue. So really it takes Rancher, it takes our ecosystem partners, like Twistlock, like Aqua. CICD partners, like CloudBees, GitLab. Just everyone really needs to come together, make that, solve that management problem. So not only, uh, you build this Kubernetes infrastructure but then you actually going to get a lot of users and they can use the cluster securely and reliably. Then I think the third step, which I think a lot of work still remain is we really want to focus on growing the footprint of workload, of enterprise workload, in the enterprise. So there the work is honestly just getting started. Anywhere from uh, if you walk into any enterprise you know what percentage of their total workload is running on Kubernetes today? I mean outside of Google and Uber, that percentage is probably very small, right? They're probably in the minority, maybe even in single digit percentage. So, we really need to do a lot of work. You know, we need to uh, Rancher created this project called LongHorn and we also work with a lot of our ecosystem partners in persistence storage area like Portworx, StorageOS, OpenEBS. Lot of us really need to come together and solve this problem of running persistent workload. I mean there was also a lot of talk about it at the keynote this morning, I was very encouraged to hear that. That could easily double, triple the amount of workload that could bring, that could be onboarded into Kubernetes and even experiences like Rio, you know? Make it further simpler, more accessible. That is really in the DNA of Rancher. Rancher wouldn't be surviving and thriving without our insight into how to make our technology consumable and widely adopted. So a lot of work we're doing is really to drive the adoption of Kubernetes in the enterprise beyond, you know, the current state and into something I really don't see in the future, Kubernetes wouldn't be as actually widely used as say AWS or vSphere. That would be my bar for success. Hopefully in a few years we can be talking about that. >> All right, that is a high bar Sheng. We look forward to more conversations with you going forward. Congratulations on the announcement. Great buzz on K3S, and yeah, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much. >> For John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, back with lots more coverage here from KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 in San Diego, you're watching theCUBE. [Upbeat music]

>> Narrator: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Docker, Docker, Docker. No, you're in the right place. This is KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2019 here in San Diego. I'm Stu Miniman kicking off three days of live, wall to wall coverage. My co-host for most of the week this week is John Troyer. Justin Warren's also in the house. He'll be hosting for me. And a big shout out to John Furrier who's back at the corporate ranch in Palo Alto keeping an eye on all the CloudNative stuff with us. The reason that I actually mentioned Docker is because it is the first thing that is on our lips this week. Just this week, Docker, which is the company that, if it wasn't for Docker, we wouldn't have 12,500 people here at this event. Really democratized containers. But the company itself built out a platform, millions and millions of companies using containers. But when the orchestration layer came in there was some contention, there's lots of politics. I'm waiting for Docker the Broadway musical to come out to talk about all the ins and outs there because Kubernetes really sucked the air out of the CloudNative world. Spawned tons of projects here. As you can see behind us, this ecosystem is massive and swelling. Last year it was 8,000 people, year before it was 4,000 people, so many people here, so. And John, so, let's start. This is your first time at this show, you've done many shows with us, definitely covered some of the cloud-native, you've worked with many of the companies that are in this ecosystem here. Give me your first impressions here of KubeCon CloudNativeCon. >> Sure, sure. Well, I mean Stu, 12,000 people, it's pretty crowded here. We're right by the t-shirt line, on day one of the conference. Look, a conference this big, especially an open source conference, there's several jobs to be done, right. This is an active set of open source projects and open source communities. So a lot of the keynote this morning was updating people on details about the latest releases, the latest features, what's in, what's out, what's going on. CNCF is a very broad umbrella for a very broad number of projects, not a coherent opinionated stack, it's a lot of different things that all contribute to a set of CloudNative technologies. So, that's job one. Job two, it's a trade show, and it's an industry show, and people are coming here to figure out how to build and learn and operate. So, that wasn't particularly well served by the keynote this morning. There was certainly a lot of hands-on this week. There's a huge number of breakouts, there's a huge number of tracks. Even day zero, which is a set of specialty breakout workshops and sessions, everything was packed. There were over a dozen of those. So, what strikes me is the breadth here is that it's a mile wide. I won't say it's an inch deep, because there's some, but it is a mile wide. >> Yeah, yeah, John you are right, there's so much going on. The day zero tracks are amazing. I think there were over two dozen, maybe even more of the sessions where, you know, half-day or full day deep dives. Even talk, there was some other small events even that went on for two or three days leading up to this. So, sprawling ecosystem. Last year at this show in Seattle, I actually said that this show is the independent cloud show that we've been looking for. John, I was at Microsoft Ignite just a couple of weeks ago, and absolutely, Satya Nadella, they're not talking about the bits and the bytes. It's a, you know, Microsoft is your trusted partner for everything you're going to do, including building 50 billion new applications. Amazon Reinvent will just be right after Thanksgiving, and we will hear a very different message from Amazon and where they play. But this is not a company, it is a lot of different projects. The CNCF is the steward of this, and so Kubernetes is the one that gets all the attention. I think for this group to even grow more, it needs to be focused more on the CloudNativeCon, because how do we do cloud-native? You know, what does that mean? We heard, you know, Sugu was up on stage talking about Vitess, and he said, look, if you bake your database directly in fully Kubernetes cloud-native, that means that when you want to move between clouds you bring your data with you. So, data, security, networking, messaging, there's so many pieces here. It's a lot of work to be done to mature this stack, but it definitely is getting more mature. You start hearing many of these projects with a million or more downloads a month. So many pieces. John, what are you looking to dig into this week, what are you most excited for, what questions do you want answered? >> Well, here on theCUBE I'm always excited when we get to talk to people in production, customers, really see what's going on. There's a lot of stuff in production right now, which is not to say a lot of stuff isn't bleeding edge, right. I hear a lot of stuff, just out of the woodwork, about things that are fragile, things that aren't ready, things that are not quite updated, and I think Kubernetes is an architectural as well as a spiritual home for everything. But there's a lot of pieces that plug in, and there are opinionated ways of doing it, there are best of breed way, there are vertically integrated stacks. What's the best approach, it's not clear to me. I mean if you have to look at it from a company perspective, who are the winners and losers, I don't think that's a very productive way of looking at it. I'm interested in some projects like, we're going to be talking with Rancher, and they've got some announcements, but I'm also interested in K3s, which is their project there. I'm been hearing some really interesting things on the storage front. You know, all these things are really necessary. It's not all just magic containers moving around. You got to actually get the bits and bytes into the right place at the right time and backed up. >> Yeah, I love that you brought up K3s. Edge is definitely something that I hear talking a lot, because if you talk about cloud-native, it's not just about public cloud. Many of these things can run in my on-premises data centers and everything like that. >> And Edge fits in all of these environments, so. Right, winners and losers, I remember two years ago, first time I got a chance to interview Kelsey Hightower, who we do have on the program. He had actually taken a couple shows off, but he's back here at the show. I said Kelsey, why are we spending so much talking about Kubernetes? Doesn't this just get baked into every platform? And he's like, yeah totally, that's not the importance of it. It's not about distributions, and not about who's who, any of the software companies, it's how do they pull all of the pieces together. How do they add value on top of it. One of the terms I've heard mentioned a lot is, we need to think a lot about day two. Heck, there was even one of the companies that was heavy in this space, Mesosphere, they renamed the company Day Two IQ, spelled D2IQ. No relation to R2D2. But you know, that's what they are focused on to help these things really go together. So yeah, we talk about multicloud, and how do I get my arms around all of these pieces, how do I manage a sprawling environment. You add Edge into it. I've got a huge surface of attack for security issues. So, John, remember cloud was supposed to be simple and cheap, and it really isn't either of those things anymore, so yeah, a lot for us to dig into. >> Yeah, it'll be an interesting mix. Developers, experts, people brand new, probably half the people here they're the first time, and people coming over from the IT space as well as people coming from the open source space and I even saw this morning this is the biggest conference I've ever been to. So it's a many, it's different parts of the elephant, I'd say. >> Yeah, absolutely. It is a good sized conference, especially for open source it probably is the largest. But Salesforce Dreamforce is going on this week, which is more than an order of magnitude bigger, so my condolences to anybody in San Francisco right now, because we know the BART and everything else completely swamped with too many people. One other thing, you know, CNCF, what's really interesting for me always is when you look at a lot of these projects, the people that we saw up on stage were companies, it was the person that oh, I started this project and I'm the technical lead on it, and that's where I'm going. We've interviewed many of the people that start these projects, and they come many times out of industry. It's not a vendor that said, hey, I built something and I'm selling it. It is companies like Uber and Lyft that said, we did things at massive scale, we had a problem, we built something, we thought it was useful for us. Open source seemed a good way to help us get broader visibility and maybe everybody could help, and other people not only pitch in, but say this is hugely valuable, and that's where we go with it. So, it's something we, a narrative I've heard for years about everybody's going to be a software company, well, almost everybody at this conference is building software. We've heard about 30 to 40% of the people attending this show are developers, and therefore many of them are going to build products. A question I have and I'll give you is, with Docker, we just kicked off talking about Docker. You know, Docker created this huge wave of what happens there, but to put it bluntly, Docker the business failed. So, they are not dead, there's the piece that's in Mirantis, there's the piece doing the developer piece. We wish all of them the best of luck, but they had the opportunity to be the next VMware, and instead they are the company that gave us this wave, but did not capitalize on it. So, I look around and I see so many companies, and you say, "Hey, what are you?" "Oh, we're the creators of X technology in this project," and my question is, are you actually going to be able to make money and do a business, or is this just something that gets fit into the overall ecosystem. John, any thoughts and advice for those kind of companies. >> Well, I mean we are here, even though there's 12,000 people here, this is still very leading edge, right. There's a lot of pieces, parts here. We're not sure how they're all going to fit together. A lot of the projects have come out of real use cases, like you say, but they're, it's commercial viability is a different beast than utility. Docker was very good at developer experience, but the DNA of actually selling an enterprise management stack is a whole different beast, and there are a lot of those too. So I mean I think a lot of the companies here may not be around, but their technologies will live on. I think if you're here, and the interviews here at the show I think will be a, you'll want to have your antenna out to see like, okay, does this give you a feeling like this is solving a real problem and is incorporated in a real ecosystem. You know, the big company, it cuts both ways, right. Some of the times those technologies get absorbed and become the standard, sometimes they disappear. So the advice is you just put one foot in front of the other and try to find people in production. That's the only way at the end of the day that you could move ahead as a small company. >> All right, John, I gave you one piece of advice when we came here and I said, you know one thing we don't talk about at this show, we don't talk about OpenStack. So, I'm going to break that rule for a second here, just 'cause I feel we have as an industry learned some of the lessons. There is some of the irrational exuberance around some of these. There's lots of money being thrown at these environments, but I do feel that we are reaching maturity and adoption so much faster, because we are not trying to replacing something. The early days of OpenStack was, you know, we're your alternative for AWS, and we're going to get you off of VMware licensing. And both of those things were, they didn't happen for the most part. And OpenStack did fit in certain environments, especially outside of North America there's lots of OpenStack deployments. The telecommunications environment OpenStack is used a bunch. Telecom, another area, talk about Edge, that plays in here and we have a number of conversations. But there are both the big and the small companies when I look at our list of people we're going to be talking on the program. You know, I love first the customers. We've got Fidelity, Bloomberg, Red Cross, and Ford Motor Company all on the program, and we've got big companies, mega giants like Cisco, Hewlett Packard Enterprise, as well as couple of companies that came out of stealth like in the last week, including Render and Chronosphere. So, you know, broad spectrum of what's going on. You've done some of the OpenStack shows with me. You've got a long community and ecosystem viewpoint, John. What do you think and what do you hear, yeah. >> You know, this is, I guess yeah, this is a next generation, you could look at it that way. Anytime you bring together one of these open source foundations, you know, it is kind of a new style of development. You do have differing agendas. People do again have to have their antenna up to see, is this person promoting this open source project and what is their commercial interest in it. Because there are different agendas here. But it looks pretty healthy. Look, there's probably a million engineers worldwide that are going to have to know the guts of Kubernetes, but it's a different job to be done than OpenStack. OpenStack community is actually, that exists, is still thriving. It is good for the job to be done there. This job to be done's a little different. I think it's going to be an engine, you know, the engine that's embedded in everything else. So there's going to be a hundred million engineers that don't need to know anything about Kubernetes, but people here are the people that pop the hood open and start to you know, mess with the carburetor and this is a carburetor show. And so for the coverage here we're going to try to up level it to talk about the business a little bit, but this feels important. It feels cross-cloud, it feels outside of any one silo, and I'm really interested to see what we're going to learn this week. >> Okay, and thank you John. I really appreciate it to get it right final. It's like what is our job here? We are an independent media organization. Yes, we did bring our own stickers here to be able to, you know, we know everybody here loves stickers, so we've got theCUBE and we've got the fun gopher one, our friends at Women Who Go that support this, because, you know, inclusion, diversity, something that this community definitely embraces, we are huge supporters of their, but right, we want to be able to give that broad viewpoint of everything. We're not going to be able to get into every project. We're not going to go as deep as the day zero content web, but give a good flavor for everything going on in the show. I've found of all the shows I've gone to in recent years, this is some of the biggest brains in the industry. There's a lot of really important stuff, so I appreciate bringing my PHD holding co-host with me, John. Looking forward to three days with you to dig into all the environment. All right, so we will be wall to wall coverage, three days. If you're at the event, we are here in the expo hall. You can't miss us, we've got the big lights right next to the CloudNativeCon store. If you're online of course reach out to us. I'm @stu, S-T-U on Twitter. He's @jtroyer, and hit us up, see us in person, come grab some stickers, let us know who you want to talk to and what question you have, and as always, thank you for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon CloudNativeCon, Europe, 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, we're at the end of two days, wall-to-wall coverage here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. I'm Stu Miniman, my co-host for two days has been Corey Quinn. Corey, we've gone two days, it's five years of Kubernetes, and everybody's been wondering when are you going to sing happy birthday to Fippy and the Kubernetes team? >> Generally, no one wants to hear me sing more than once, because first, I don't have a great singing voice, but more importantly, I insist on calling it Corey-oki, and it just doesn't resonate with people. The puns don't land as well as you'd hope they would. >> Maybe not singing, but you are a master of limericks, I'm told. >> So they tell me, most are unprintable, but that's a separate argument for another time. >> Alright, so, Corey this is your first time at KubeCon. >> It is. >> In CloudNativeCon, we've done some analysis segments, I thought we've had some phenomenal guests, some great end-users, some thought leaders, >> We had some great times. >> You need to pick your favorite right now. >> Oh, everyone's going to pick their own favorite on this one, but I've got to say it was, it would have to be, hands down, Abby Fuller, from AWS. Not that I didn't enjoy all of our guests -- >> Is it because you have AWS on your Lapel pin, and that secretly you do work for Amazon? >> Hardly, just the opposite, in fact. It's that, given that my newsletter makes fun of AWS on a near constant basis, whenever someone says Oh, there's going to be a public thing with Corey and someone from AWS, half the people there are like, Oh, this is going to be good, and the other half turn ghost white and Oh, no, no, this is going to go awfully. And, I'll be honest, it's been a day now, I still don't know which it was, but we had fun. >> Yeah, so, Abby was phenomenal, loved having her on the program, I'm a sucker for the real transformational stories, I tell you Jeff Brewer from Intuit, there's been many times I do a show and I do like, the first interview, and I'm like, I can go home. Here we hear a company that we know, both of us have used this technology, and really walks us through how that transformation happens, some of the organizational things. They've brought some software in and they're contributing to it, so just many aspects of what I look at in a company that's modernizing and going through those pieces. And those kinds of stories always get me excited. >> That story was incredible, and in fact it's almost starting to turn into a truth and labeling issue, for lack of a better term, because this is the Cloudnative Foundation, the software is designed for things that were more or less born in the cloud, and now we're hearing this entire series of stories on transitioning in. And it almost feels like that's not native anymore, that's effectively something that is migrating in. And that's fantastic, it's a sign of maturity, it's great to see. And it's strange to think of that, that in the terms of the software itself is absolutely Cloudnative, it's not at all clear that the companies that are working with this are themselves. And that's okay, that's not a terrible thing. There was some snark from the keynote today about, here's a way to run web logic in Kubernetes, and half the audience was looking at this with a, Eeee, why would I ever want to do that? Because you're running web logic and you need to continue to run web logic, and you can either sit there and make fun of people, you can help them get to a different place than they are now that helps their business become more agile and improves velocity, but I don't think you can effectively do both. >> Yeah, Corey, anything that's over than 5 years old why would you ever want to do that? Because you must always do things the brand new way. Oh wait, let's consider this for a second, lift and shift is something that I cringe a little bit when I hear it because there's too many times that I would hear a customer say I did this, and I hadn't fully planned out how I was doing it, and then I clawed it back because it was neither cheap nor easy, I swiped that credit card and it wasn't what I expected. >> Yeah, I went ahead and decided to run on a cloud provider now my infrastructure runs on someone else's infrastructure, and then a few months go by, and the transition doesn't happen right, I was wrong, it's not running on someone else's infrastructure, it's running on money. What do I do? And that became something that was interesting for a lot of companies, and painful as well. You can do that, but you need to plan the second shift phase to take longer than you think it will, you will not recoup savings in the time frame you probably expect to, but that's okay because it's usually not about that. It's a capability story. >> I had hoped that we learned as an industry. You might remember the old phrase, my mess for less? By outsourcing, and then we'll, Oh wait, I put it in an environment, they don't really understand my business, I can't make changes in the way I want, I need to insource now my knowledge to be able to work close with the business, and therefore no matter where I put my valuable code, my valuable information and I run stuff, I'm responsible for it and even if I move it there as a first step, I need to make sure how do I actually optimize it for that environment from a cost savings, there's lots of things that I can to change those kind of things. >> The one cautionary tale I'm picking up from a lot of these stories has been that you need to make sure the people you're talking to, and the trusted advisors that you have are aligned with your incentives, not their own. No matter where you go, there's an entire sea of companies that are thrilled and lined up to sell you something. And that's not inherently a bad thing, but you need to understand that whenever you're having those conversations, there's a potential conflict of interest. Not necessarily an actual one, but pay attention. You can partner with someone, but at some point your interests do diverge. >> Okay, Corey, what other key learnings or sound bites did you get from some of our speakers this week? >> There were an awful lot of them. I think that's the first time I've ever seen, for example, a project having pieces removed from it, Tiller, in this case, and a bunch of people clapped and cheered. They've been ripped out of Helm, it's oh awesome, normally the only time you see something get ripped out and people cheer is when they finally fire that person you work with. Usually, that person is me, then everyone claps and cheers, which, frankly, if you've met me, that makes sense. For software, it's less common. But we saw that, we saw two open-source projects merging. >> Yeah. >> We had, it was-- >> Open telemetry is the new piece. >> With open senses and open tracing combining, you don't often see that done in anything approaching a responsible way, but we've seen it now. And there's been a lot of people a little miffed that there weren't a whole bunch of new features and services and what not launched today. That's a sign of maturity. It means that there's a stability story that is now being told. And I think that that's something that's very easy to overlook if you're interested in a pure development perspective. >> Just to give a little bit of a cautionary piece there, we had Mark Shuttleworth on the program, he said Look, there are certain emperors walking around the show floor that have no clothes on. Had Tim talking, Joe Beta, and Gabe Monroy on, some of the earliest people working on Kubernetes and they said Look, five years in, we've reached a certain level of maturity, but Tim Hoggin was like, we have so much to do, our sigs are overrunning with what I need to do now, so don't think we can declare success, cut the cake, eat the donuts, grab the t-shirt, and say great let's go on to the next great thing because there is so much more yet to do. >> There's absolutely a consulting opportunity for someone to set up shop and call it imperial tailoring. Where they're going around and helping these people realize that yes, you've come an incredibly long way, but there is so much more work to be done, there is such a bright future. Now I would not call myself a screaming advocate for virtually any technology, I hope. I think that Kubernetes absolutely has it's place. I don't think it's a Penesea, and I don't think that it is going to necessarily be the right fit for every work load. I think that most people, once you get them calmed down, and the adrenaline has worn off, would largely agree with that sentiment. But that nuance often gets lost in a world of tweets, it's a nuanced discussion that doesn't lend itself well to rapid fire, quick sound bites. >> Corey, another thing I know that is near and dear to your heart they brought in diversity scholarships. >> Yes. >> So 56 people got their pass and travel paid for to come here. There's really good, People in the community are very welcoming, yet in the same breath, when they talked about the numbers, and Cheryl was up on stage saying only three percent of the people contributing and making changes were women. And so, therefore, we still have work to do to make sure that, you've mentioned a couple of times on the program. >> Absolutely, and it is incredibly important, but one of the things that gives me some of the most hope for that is how many companies or organizations would run numbers like that and realize that three percent of their contributors are women, and then mention it during a keynote. That's almost unheard of for an awful lot of companies, instead they wind up going and holding that back. One company we don't need to name, wound up trying to keep that from coming out in a court case as a trade secret, of all things. And that's generally, depressingly, what you would often expect. The fact that they called it out, and the fact that they are having a diversity scholarship program, they are looking at actively at ways to solve this problem is I think the right answer. I certainly don't know what the fix is going to be for any of this, but something has to happen, and the fact that they are not sitting around waiting for the problem to fix itself, they're not casting blame around a bunch of different directions is inspirational. I'm probably not the best person to talk on this, but the issue is, you're right, it is very important to me and it is something that absolutely needs to be addressed. I'm very encouraged by the conversations we had with Cheryl Hung and several other people these last couple of days, and I'm very eager to see where it goes next. >> Okay, Corey, what about any things you've been hearing in the back channel, hallway conversations, any concerns out there? The one from my standpoint where I say, well, security is something that for most of my career was top of mine, and bottom of budget, and from day one, when you talk about containers and everything, security is there. There are a number of companies in this space that are starting to target it, but there's not a lot of VC money coming into this space, and there are concerns about how much real focus there will be to make sure security in this ecosystem is there. Every single platform that this is going to live in, whether you talk the public clouds, talk about companies like Red Hat, and everybody else here, security is a big piece of their message and their focus, but from a CNCF if there was one area that I didn't hear enough about at this show, I thought it might be storage, but feels like we are making progress there, so security's the one I come out with and say I want to know more, I want to see more. >> One thing that I thought was interesting is we spoke to Reduxio earlier, and they were talking about one of their advantages was that they are quote enterprise grade, and normally to me that means we have slides with war and peace written on every one. And instead what they talked about was they have not just security built into this, but they have audit ability, they have an entire, they have data lifecycle policies, they have a level of maturity that is necessary if we're going to start winning some of these serious enterprise and regulated workloads. So, there are companies active in this space. But I agree with you, I think that it is not been a primary area of focus. But if you look at how quickly this entire, I will call it a Kubernetes revolution, because anything else takes on religious overtones, it's been such a fast Twitch type of environment that security does get left behind, because it's never a concern or a priority until it's too late. And then it becomes a giant horses left, barn door's been closed story, and I hope we don't have to learn that. >> So, MultiCloud, Corey, have you changed your mind? >> I don't think so, I still maintain that MultiCloud within the absence of a business reason is not a best practice. I think that if you need to open that door for business reasons then Kubernetes is not a terrible way to go about achieving it. But I do question whether it's something everyone needs to put into their system design principles on day one. >> Okay, must companies be born CloudNative, or can they mature into a CloudNative, or we should be talking a different term maybe? >> I don't know if it's a terminology issue, we've certainly seen companies that were born in on-prem environments where the classic example of this is Capital One. They are absolutely going all in on public cloud, they have been very public about how they're doing it. Transformation is possible, it runs on money and it takes a lot more time and effort than anyone thinks it's going to, but as long as you have the right incentives and the right reason to do things it absolutely becomes possible. That said, it is potentially easier, if you're born in the cloud, to a point. If you get ossified into existing patterns and don't pay attention to what's happening, you look at these companies that are 20 years old, and oh they're so backwards they'll never catch up. If you live that long, that will be you someday. So it's very important to not stop paying attention to what the larger ecosystem is doing, because you don't want to be the only person responsible for levels of your stack that you don't want to have to be responsible for. >> Alright, want to give you the final word. Corey, any final things, any final questions for me? >> Fundamentally I think that this has been an incredible event. Where we've had great conversations with people who are focused on an awful lot of different things. There are still a bunch of open questions. I still, for example, think that Serverless is being viewed entirely too much through a lens of functions as a service, but I'm curious as far as what you took away from this. What did you learn this trip that you didn't expect to learn? >> So, it's interesting when we talk about the changing world of OpenSource. There's been some concern lately that what's happening in the public cloud, well, maybe OpenSource will be imploding. Well, it really doesn't feel that way to me when you talk at this show, we've actually used the line a couple of times, Kubernetes is people. It is not the vendors jested, >> Internet of flesh. >> There are people here. We've all seen people that we know that have passions for what they are doing, and that goes above and beyond where they live. And in this community it is project first, and the company you work for is second or third consideration in there. So, there's this groundswell of activity, we're big believers of the world can be changed if, I don't need everybody's full time commitment, if you could just take two percent of the US's watching of TV in a single year, you could build Wikipedia. Clay Sharky, one of my greats that I love from those environments, we believe that the network and communities really can make huge efforts and it's great to see tech for good and for progress and many of the outcomes of that we see here is refreshingly uplifting to kind of pull us out of some of the day-to-day things that we think about sometimes. >> Absolutely, I think that you're right, it has to come from people, it has to come from community, and so far I'm seeing a lot of encouraging signs. One thing that I do find slightly troubling that may or may not resolve itself is that we're still seeing CloudNative defined in terms of what it's not. That said, this is theCUBE, I am not Stu Miniman. >> Well, I am Stu Miniman, you are Corey Quinn. Corey, how's it been two days on theCUBE wall-to-wall through all these things, ready for a nap or fly home? >> I'm ready to call it a week, absolutely. I'm somewhat surprised that at no point have you hit me. And one of these days I am sure we will cross that border. >> Well, definitely, I try not to have any video or photo evidence of that, but thank you Corey, so much. We do have to make a big shout out, first and foremost to the CloudNative Computing Foundation without their partnership, we would not be able to come here. And we do have sponsorship if you look on the lower thirds of the videos you will see our headline sponsor for this show has been Red Hat. Obviously strong commitment in this community, and will be with us here and also in San Diego for KubeCon. Additional shout out to Cisco, Canonical, and Reduxio for their sponsorship here. And all the people that put on this show here, it's a big community, our team. So I want to make a big shout out to my boys here, coming in I've got Pat, Seth, flying in from the West Coast as well as the Tony Day crew Tony, Steve, and John. Thank you guys, beautiful set here, love the gimble with the logo. Branding here, lot's of spectacle, and we always say check out thecube.com to see all the replays as well, see where we will be, reach out with any questions, and thank you as always, for watching theCUBE. (upbeat jingle)

>> Live from Barcelona, Spain, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe 2019. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation and ecosystem partners. >> In mid-2014, announced the world, coming out of Google led by Joe Beda, sitting to my right, Brendan Burges and Craig McLucky, all Kube alumni. Kubernetes, which is the Greek for governor helmsman or captain and here we are, five years later at the show. I'm Stu Miniman and this is theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon + CloudNativeCon here in Barcelona, Spain. Joe you've got your title today is that you're a principal engineer at VMware of course, by way of acquisition through Heptio, but you are one of the people who helped start this journey that we are all on Kubernetes, thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thank you so much for having me. >> Alright, so, the cake and the candles and the singing we'll hold for the parties later. We have Fippy and the gang have been watching our whole thing, for people who don't know there's a whole cartoon, books and stuffed animals and everything like that. Joe, when you started this merchandising, that was what you were starting, no. In all seriousness though, bring us back a little bit give us a little bit of historical context as to we've had you on the program a few times but yeah, here we are five years later was this what you were expecting? >> I mean when I remember Craig and Bren and I sitting around and we're like hey, we should do this as an open source project This is before we got approvals and got the whole thing started. And I think there was, like an idea in the back of our head, of like, this could be a big deal. You dream big a lot of times and you know that there's a reality and that it's not always going to end up being this. And so, I don't think anybody involved with Kubernetes in the early days really thought it was going to turn into what it has turned into. >> Yeah, so when we look at open source projects, I remember back a few years back, it was like to succeed you must have a phoenetical dictator that will make sure the community does this or wait we don't want too much vendor we're just going to let the user community take over and there's all these extremes out there, but these are complicated pieces. The keynote this morning the discussion was Kubernetes is a platform of platforms it's like I've got all of these APIs and by itself, Kubernetes doesn't do a lot. It is, what it enables and what things put together, so walk us through a little bit of that the mission, how it changed a bit and a little bit of the community and we'll go from there. >> Yeah, I think so early on one of the goals with Kubernetes from Google's point of view was to essentially take a lot of the ideas that had been incubated over about a decade, with respect to Borg and other things and so, a lot of the early folks who got involved in the project and worked on those systems and really bring that to the outside world as a way to actually start bridging the gap between what Googlers did and what the rest of the world did. We had a really good idea of what we were looking to get out of this system and that was widely shared based on experience across a bunch of relatively senior engineers. We brought in some of the Red Hat folks early on Clayton Coleman and some of the other folks who are still super involved in the project. I think there was enough of an understanding that we looked and said okay we got a lot of work to do let's just get this done. So, we didn't really need sort of the benevolent dictator because there was a shared understanding and we had senior engineers that were willing to make trade-offs to be able to go and move forward. So that I think was a key bit of the success early on. >> Alright, so you talked, it was pulling in some other vendor community there. Talk a little bit about how that ecosystem grew and when was user feedback part of that discussion? >> Yeah, I mean, when you say we pulled in the vendor we pulled in people who worked for vendors but we never really viewed it as, there was really from the beginning this idea of well what's good for the project? What's going to actually create sustainability and for the project, sort of project over vendor is really something that we wanted to establish. And that even came down to the name, right? Like, when we named the project, we could have called it Google XYZ or some sort of XYZ but we didn't want to do that because we wanted to establish it as an independent thing with a life of its own. And so, yeah, so we wanted to bring in those external ideas and I think early on, we did have some early users, we did listen to them but it really resonated with folks who could actually see where we were going. I think it took time for the rest of the world to really catch on with what the vision was. >> OK, when we look at today, there's a lot at the show that is on top of or next to or with Kubernetes it's not all about that piece. How do you balance what goes in it versus what goes with it? One of my favorite lines last year overall, was from you, saying Kubernetes is not a magic player it is not the be all and end all it is set with very specific guidelines. How do you avoid scope creep? As engineers it's always like, I don't know, we know how to do that piece of it better. >> So when we started out the project we didn't actually have a governance model. It was just a bunch of engineers that sort of worked well together. Over time and as the project grew, we knew that we needed to actually get some sort of structure in place. And so a bunch of us who had been there from the start got together, formed a steering committee, held elections. There's a secret architecture that we formed and these are the places where we can actually say what is Kubernetes what is Kubernetes not how do we actually maintain sort of good taste with how we actually approach this stuff and that's one of the ways that we try to contain scope creep. But also, I think everybody realizes that a thriving ecosystem whether officially part of the CNCF or adjacent to it, is good for everybody. Trying to hold on too tight is not going to be good for the project. >> So, Joe, tremendous progress in five years. Look forward for us a little bit. What does Kubernetes 2024 look like for us? >> Well a lot of folks like to say that in five years, Kubernetes is going to disappear. And sometimes they come at this from this sort of snarky angle. (chuckles) But other times, I think it's going to disappear in terms of like it's going to be so boring, so solid, so assumed that people don't talk about it anymore. I mean, we're here, at something that the CNCF is part of the Linux Foundation, which is great. But how often do people really focus on the Linux kernel these days? It is so boring, so solid, there's new stuff going on, but clearly, all the exciting stuff all the action, all the innovation is happening at higher layers. I think we're going to see something similar happen with Kubernetes over time. >> Yeah, that being said the reach of Kubernetes is further than ever. I was talking to this special interest group looking at edge computing and IoT people making the micro-cage version of this stuff when the team first got together, I mean, is you must look at and said there were many fathers, many parents of this solution, but, could you imagine the kind of the family and ecosystem that would have grown out of it? >> I think we knew that it could go there I mean, Google had some experience with this, I mean When Google bought YouTube, they had a problem where they had to essentially build out something that looked a little bit like a CDN. And so there were some examples of sort of like, how does technology, like Boar, adapt to an Edge type of situation. So, there was some experience to borrow we definitely knew that we wanted this thing to scale up and down. But I think that's a hallmark of these successful technologies is that they can be used in ways and in places that you really never thought about when you got started. So that's definitely true. >> Alright, Joe, want to give you the final word the contributors, the users, the ecosystem community, what do you say with five years of Kubernetes now in the books? >> I just want to send a huge thank you to everybody who made it happen. This is, it was started by Google it was started by a few of us early on. But, we really want to make it so that everybody feels like it's theirs. A lot of times Brendan Burns and me and Kelsey wrote a book together and I'll do signing and a lot of times I'll sign that and I'll say thank you for being a part of Kubernetes. Because I really feel like every user everybody who bets on it, everybody who shares their knowledge, they're really a big part of it. And so thank you to everybody who's a big part of Kubernetes. >> All right, well, Joe, thank you as always for sharing your knowledge with our community >> Thank you so much. >> We've been happy to be a small part in helping to spread the knowledge and everything going on here, so congratulations to the community on five years of Kubernetes and we'll be back with more coverage here from KubeCon + CloudNativeCon 2019. I'm Stu Miniman and thanks for watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington, it's theCUBE, covering KubeCon, and CloudNativeCon North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and the Antigo System Partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone live here in Seattle for the theCUBE's coverage of KubeCon and CloundNativeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier, theCUBE with Stu Miniman, breaking down all the action. Three days of coverage, we're in day two. A lot of action at Open-source. 8,000 attendees, up from 4,000 North America, they were in China, they were all over Europe. The community's growing in a massive way. We had two great guests from Red Hat, all making it happen, part of the community. We've got Diane Mueller, whose theCUBE alumni director of community development, many times on theCUBE, good to see you, and Rob Szumski, principal product manager, both at Red Hat. Guys, thanks for coming on. Great to see you again. >> Yeah, glad to be here. - Great to be here. >> So the world's changing a lot, and there was some news recently around Red Hat. I can't remember what it was. Recently, something big news, but you guys have been big players in Open-source for years. We always cover it, we always wax on about the origination of it and how the evolution, but the CloudNative piece has gotten so real, and your role in it particularly, we've had many conversations, going maybe back to the OpenStack days of how OpenShift was developing, then the bet on Kubernetes that you made, Core OS acquisition, those two things I think, to me, at least from my perspective, really catalyzed a lot of things at the right time, right? So, from there, just a lot of things has just been happening really in a good way. Big tail wind for you guys, CloudNative app developers are using Open-source, CI/CD pipeline, and then also policy based up under the hood, completely big shift in moving the game down the field. So big congratulations first of all. But what's new? What's the update? >> The update is Operators. I think the next big thing that we are really focusing on, and that's a game changer for all the second day operations type things, and we'll make Rob talk about it in detail, is the rise of Kubernetes' Operators. It's not a scary thing, it's not like terminator day, or anything like that, but it is really the thing that helps us make the service catalogs, the Kubernetes marketplaces really accessible to all of the data bases as a service, and all of the other things, and takes out some of the complexity of delivering applications and database  as a Service to anybody running Kubernetes anywhere. >> Take a minute to explain Operator, real quick, and then we can jump into it, because I think this is a fundamental trend, that we're seeing. Developer trend is pretty obvious, it's been that word for awhile, CloudScale, ML, machine learning, and all the goodness around application development, but the Operator side of it has been an IT thing. But now you guys have a different, a new approach that's winning. What is it? What is Operator? >> Well, it's Kubernetes that has the approach, and I'll let you-- >> Yeah, so it's basically like the rise of containers was great, because you could take a single container and package an application and give to somebody, and know that they can run it successfully. And Operator does that for a distributed system in the exact same way. So you're using all the Kubernetes primitives, so you're not reinventing service discovery, and seeker management, and all that. And you can give somebody an entire Kafka stack, or a machine learning stack, or whatever it is, these very complex distributed systems, and have them run it without having to be an expert. They need to know Kafka at a high level, but not exactly all the underpinnings of it, because that's all baked in the software. >> And the benefit and the impact of the organization is what? >> And just to clarify, so this was added in, I believe Kubernetes is like 1.7, it's something that's in there, it's not something Red Hat specific- >> Yeah, it's like-- >> So you're extending Kubernetes so that you have a custom resource definition, which is an extensible mechanism for saying, hey, I've got a deployment or a staple set, but what if I want to have a new object called a MongoDB? That knows how to deploy, and manage, and upgrade MongoDB. So that's the extension mechanism that we're using. >> Yeah, so you got to think, there's certain applications that this is going to make, just a lot easier how I manage them, deploy them, things like that. Any specific examples you want to share as to-- >> All the clustered data bases. >> There's a lot of the application side in this model have been very excited about this. >> So its all the vendors and partners that want a hybrid Cloud story, just targeting Kubernetes, and we're using Kubernetes under the hood, and then everybody wants to run like a staple data base tier, whether that's Mongo and Couchbase, and Cassandra, whatever. And these are all distributed systems. >> Alright, so I want you to just perch, you said a hybrid Cloud. Explain that model, because there's just something in general discussion that is hybrid or multi means I'm running multiple places, I'm not necessarily stretching an application, but I have instances there, just want to make sure we're on the same page. >> So this would be more the compatibility that you're programming against when you're building an operator, is Kubernetes. It's not a Cloud offering, it's not OpenShift, so you're just targeting Kubernetes, and so you can run MongoDB on prem, in the Cloud, and have it function the exact same, by standing up one of these Operators. And then if that Operator has higher level constructs for how to do multi-cluster aware data rebalancing, you can take advantage of that too. >> And the Open-source status of this product is what? >> It's all Open-source, it's all in the github repos, there's a Google group for Operator framework, that anyone can come and participate in. We hold SIG meetings on the third Friday of every month, 9 a.m. Pacific Time, and it's a completely Open-source project. There's a whole framework around it, so there's the Operator SDK, the Operator Lifecycle Management, and Operator metering, all the tooling there to help people build and manage these Operators, and it's all being built out there in the open with the community's support and feedback loops. >> What's the feedback? What's the top feedback you guys are getting right now? Seeing right now? >> I have to say, this is really, like I've been hanging out with you guys like for the past three, four months on this topic, trying to get my head around it and everything, and we came here and we had two sessions, an intro session and a deep dive session, intro yesterday, deep dive today. Today's deep dive, the room was about 250 people, and they're were people outside of it-- >> Security guards blocking people from coming in. >> Nobody could come in and it's like, it's insane. It's like, everybody needs these things, and everybody wants to figure out that, and when you ask people in the room whose building one, half the room raises their hands. It's just crazy. This thing crept up on us really, maybe not on Core OS, okay, it crept up on me very quickly, and it's very rapid adoption. We have a Kubernetes Operators workshop on Friday, so not only do we have pre-conference days of like OpenShift Cons that are huge now, but now we're starting to book end, CNCF events and put on other things, just because, and that, we had 100 seats that we were hoping we would fill, and it sold out in like minutes once it got in there, and there's a waiting list of like 300 people. It is like one of, aside from Knative, and all the other wonderful hot things too, it is one of the most interesting developments I think right now. >> Thirst for the content. Would it impact? >> Yeah, and you can get all of the documentation is out there now, and people are already building them. We have a list of 50 community Operators. It's just, it's phenomenal how quickly it's growing. >> You know, Diane and Rob, it's funny because you know, we do so many of these theCUBE interviews, and this is our 10th year doing theCUBE coming up, and I remember the conversations going back in the OpenStack days, we would ask questions like, if you had a magic wand, what would you like, hope to have happened, right? And you know, those are parts of the evolution, where it's like, it's aspirational, things are being built. It seems now with Kubernetes, it's almost like, wait a minute, it's actually, this is like the goodness is so compelling, above and below Kubernetes that it's almost like uncomprehendible. You think about, oh this is actually happening. Finally the kinds of steady state kind of operational things that have been a pain in the butt for years-- >> Yeah, the toil, it's gone, for the most part. >> Yeah. >> So Rob, I've been having a lot of just thinking back to, you're employee number two at Core OS, when I first talked to Core OS, it was, we're going to build all of these individual tools, and we're going to Open-source them, and it's going to be good. We watched this just rising ecosystem and the CNCF, and it feels like what's nice and what's different that I see, compared to some previous things, is it's not one product or even a small group of companies. It's, I have this tool kit, and some of them work together, but many of them are independently used. We've talked to your peers earlier about it, etCD. etCD is totally stand alone, doesn't need to be Kubernetes. What have you seen, if you go back to that original vision, would Core OS just been, part of this whole ecosystem, and done it, if this was available, and has this delivering on a promise that your team had hoped to work on? >> Yeah, so we've always filled in where we see gaps, and so something like etCD, the concept is not new, and it comes from Google, and they have a system internally, and as Brandon got up on stage and said, we needed that coordinate, reboot, to grow out, to cluster of machines. It didn't exist so we had to build it. Same thing with how we wanted to manage Linux. There was no distro that even resembled what we were doing. Wanted to do automatic upgrades, people thought that was crazy, so we had to go build it. And so, but we always adopted the best of breed technology, when it existed. In our early bet Kubernetes, we just saw, this is the thing, and went for it. I don't even remember what version, but it was months and months before it was zero point oh, or one point oh, so it was, we've been doing it forever. And you just see the right thing, and it's the little nugget that you need, and if you don't see it, then you build it. >> What are you surprised about Rob, in terms of the ecosystem now, you mentioned some goodness is happening, still a lot more to do, visibility around value creation, you're starting to see spots where value can be created in the ecosystem, which is great. Still more work areas, but what's surprising you? What do you see as opportunities, challenges? Your thoughts, because this vision of ease of use and programmability, is happening, right? So there's still more work to do. What's your vision there? What's your thoughts? >> I mean, I think self service is key, so this is like the rise of the Cloud comes from self service for developers, and Kubernetes gives you the right abstraction, where self service for VM's, like OpenStack, which is not quite at the level of what you want. You don't want a VM, you actually wanted a place to deploy an application, you wanted load balancing, you wanted service discovery, you didn't want like a bare Ubuntu VM, and so Kubernetes raises you up to where you're productive, and then it's about building stuff on top. But what's interesting, in the space is, we're still kind of competing on Kubernetes installers, and stuff like that, so we're not even really into like the phase where people are being super productive on the platform, other than these leading companies. So I think we'll democratize that, and we'll have a whole new landscape. >> And so 2019 you see as what being a key theme for Kubernetes? >> I think it'll be Core stuff built on top, like all the serverless frameworks, a bunch of container natives storage solutions, solving some of these problems that folks are reaching out to external machine learning, but bringing that onto the cluster, GPU support, that type of stuff. It's all about the workloads. >> And tradition end users, you have a huge install base, with Red Hat, well documented, as the end users start coming in and looking at CloudNative, and doing a reimagine of their environment, whether it's IT span, IT investments, to have a run their coding and the deployments. It's going to change. 2019's going to have an impact on what I call mainstream enterprise, for lack of a better description. What's the impact of those guys, 'cause now, they now have head room, they can do more, what's the main stream enterprise look like right now with the impact of Kubernetes? >> I think they're going to start deploying applications and get like lower the time to business value, much, much lower. And I was just talking to a customer, and they ordered bare metal machines like a year ago, and they're still not racked and in the data center. And so people are still getting over that type of stuff, but once you have like a shared Kubernetes layer, you can onboard teams like crazy. I mean, name spaces are free, quote, unquote, and you can get 35 engineering teams on a Kubernetes cluster super easy. >> So they can ramp up in development teams basically, as they bring value in-house, versus outsourcing everything. They start getting development teams, this is where the action is. >> I think you're also going to see the rise of those end users contributing back things, to the Kubernetes community and as Lyft, and Uber, and everybody are great examples of that. Uber with Jaeger, and Lyft is, we were just in the Operators thing, and they raised their hand that they are about to Open-source it, a few Operators that they're building and stuff, and you're just going to see people that you didn't normally see. Often these large foundation driven things are vendor driven, but I think what you see here, is the end user community is now embracing the Open-source, is getting the legal teams there, allowing them to share their things, because one, they get more people to maintain them, and more people working on them, but it's really I think the rise of the end user we'll see, as they start participating more and more in here. And that's the promise of Open-source. >> And that's where CNCF really made it's bones. It wasn't really vendor led per se, it was really end users, the guys building out their stuff for the first time. You see Lyft for instance, great example, you guys did a Core OS, this is like the new generational model. Final question before we break. I want to get this out there. Get a plug in for Red Hat. What are you guys, what's the focus for the show? What's the news? What's the big story for Red Hat here at KubeCon this year? >> I think it's Operators, that's what we're here talking about. It's a really big push to once again get smarter workloads onto the cluster. We've got a really great hybrid story, we've got a really great over the air upgrade story that we're bringing from some of the Core OS technology, and then the next thing is, once it's easy to run 35 clusters, we need a bunch of workloads to put on there. And so we want to save folks from the toil of running all those workloads as well, just like we did at the cluster level. >> Awesome. >> Well put. I couldn't add more. One of the things that Core OS did, you hit the nail on the head earlier, is when there was something missing, they helped us build it, and with the Operator SDK, and the Lifecycle Management, and the metering, and whatever else the tooling is, they have really been inspirational inside of Red Hat. And so they filled a number of gaps, and it's just been all Operators all the time right now. >> It's great when a plan comes together. You guys got a great tail wind. Congratulations on all the success, and it's just the beginning of the wave. It's theCUBE, covering the wave of innovation here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon 2018, we'll be back with more live coverage. Day two of Three days of Kube Coverage. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Seattle, Washington it's theCUBE covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America 2018. Brought to you by Red Hat, The CloudNative Computing Foundation, and Antico System Partners. (upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to theCUBE. Day two live coverage here in Seattle of the CNCF KubeCon and CouldNative. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Stu Miniman here all week for three days as multiple years we've been covering KubeCon. We've been covering this community, all the way back to the OpenStack days to now CloudNative and Kubernetes, rise of Kubernetes, and KubeCon has been great. CloudNative Computing Foundation and the center of it has been an individual CUBE alumni that we've talked to many times, Lew Tucker, VP and CTO of Cloud Computing at Cisco Systems. Great to have Lew on, good to see you. >> Great to be back again. >> We got a great history of conversations and every year we kind of have a pinch me moment where it's like it's so awesome right now, the technology's coming together, now more than ever, the standardization, the maturization of Kubenetes and what's going on around it, is probably one of the most exciting trends. It's not just about Kubernetes, it's about what that's enabling, ecosystems, storage, networking and compute, now the, is working now magically creating a lot of value. So, we've talked about it, what's the update from your perspective, how do you see it evolving now? >> I see it very much the same way, I had a short little keynote today, yesterday, and was talking about I think we've entered this kind of golden age of software where because of the number of projects that are now going into the CNCF for example, and elsewhere, and get up repositories, we just have a major driving force which is the accumulation of the software that's used now to power the cloud, power data centers, totally transforming infrastructure. We're no longer cabling as I sort of say has no become code. >> Yeah. >> And that's all about the software, it's about through the open source communities. >> We've been talking about before we came on camera about the, and we've had other conversations about the historical waves of innovation. AI's been around for a while, you know all these things have kind of been around but now with cloud computing and the resources available in terms of compute power, storage, and networking now programmable, it's creating a lot of innovation right. And this has been a tailwind for some and a headwind for others, companies that have transformed and understood that have been leveraging it. We've seen conversations from Net App, Cisco, you guys are transform, you turned it into a tailwind, for Cisco, because now all that magic can come in for the programmability on the networking side. >> Exactly right, yeah. We see AI as having a big impact across the board on all of these, we're big contributors also into Cube Clove, for example, because on top of Kubernetes, the biggest issue we're going to have in AI going forward is we don't have enough AI engineers. We don't have enough people who are trained in that. So we need to create these tools and the services that we see coming out in the cloud now for AI are designed to make it easy to consume AI. You don't have to be an AI expert in order to use it and that sort of thing is really exciting. >> How is the CloudNative environment changing IT investments 'cause again, the old days I'd have to throw a machine at something, I got to buy this and siloed, you got now horizontal capabilities, you got the vertical specialization with machine learning and AI as you just referenced. How is it changing investments, people now are looking at re-imagining their infrastructure, they're re-imagining how apps are built. How is Kubernetes, CloudNative impacting IT investments? >> So we've found for example when we talk to our customers and everything else, they're all using multiple clouds. So I think internally we're getting to see a rise here now is this multi-cloud environment that we have. And so Cisco with what we've been doing with our hybrid solutions for AWS and hybrid solutions that we're having with Google is making it so that you can have the same environment within your data center as you have in the cloud, and then we connect the two so that now the IT infrastructure really is looking like a cloud and there's many clouds, multiple clouds in your own data center, in multiple service providers. That makes it easier for IT to really consume CloudNative technology. >> I wonder if you can chill us down a level from what we're talking- you talk about cube flow and machine learning remember back to big data, was like okay, well what do we have to do with the network? Well, I need some more buffering but you know, how are we what is just the base infrastructure layer and where Kubernetes and this ecosystem just becomes the platform for all of the modern applications, and what has to be done differently, I wonder if you could help- >> Yeah so one of the big challenges I think is this how do we connect the different clouds together with your own data center. And that's why we, the hybrid solutions, where Cisco's driving now are designed specifically to make that easy because it's scary for IT organizations to say they're going to open up some part of their firewall to have connections coming in, and so we provide a solution that makes it easy for people. And that means that things such as cube flow, and things like that, they can be running, perhaps they might do some of their research in a hybrid- in a public cloud provider, such as AWS or Google. And then they want to run it now in production within their own data center, and they don't want to change a thing. And at the same time, we're seeing other capabilities. You want to access some service in the cloud as a part of your enterprise app. >> Yeah one of the things people have a hard time understanding is what is just kind of standardized, okay I've got compliant Kubernetes it can run all these places and then there's areas where Cisco has done deep integration work with both Google Cloud and with AWS, maybe help understand what are the standard pieces and what's the extra engineering work needed to be done to support some of these? >> Well I think what has helped us all is the fact that Kubernetes has really taken off. So we really are seeing if you have a Kubernetes platform and you adhere to the public APIs of Kubernetes and everything else like that, you then can have the portability of applications back in the java days we were going after that, and now we're seeing it with Kubernetes. And so by what we've developed has been with the Cisco container platform is an on premise manage Kubernetes environment that looks identical to what you find in the Kubernetes environment at AWS or at Google. So the same interfaces are there, the IT doesn't have to relearn things, they can actually get the advantage of that standardization. >> And that's key for operations and IT because that is the promise of cloud operations. Similar on both platforms on premises and in the cloud. And the next question is okay from a networking perspective, we've had many conversations with Suzie Wee at Cisco around network programmability or net dev options as you guys call it, which is kind of a play on dev ops. This is the future because with multi-cloud the apps don't need to know about where to provision workloads, which cloud when, is it better region over here, latency, network factors come in, you still got to move things around, put A to B, edge of the network for IOT. Talk about the importance of network programmability now more than ever with CloudNative why it's so important. >> Well the first and foremost, it has to be driven by APIs. The old days of actually going out and having people configure network switches to make connectivity or open up provisions and firewalls and things like that, that's behind us. Now we have that all being because of programmability of the network through what we've been doing with ACI and other technologies, we can make it so we can connect these clouds and make it, maintain the security. We're also seeing other things such as isteo and edgebased computing and things like that come into play, where again, the ordinary developer doesn't have to learn all of the details of networking and security, but the operations people need it to be secure, need it to be able to be moved around, need to be able to have telemetry so they can tell what's going on. >> One of the things we've been talking about on theCUBE, Stu and I were yesterday riffing on this but for a while, but it's also now trickled into the Silicon Valley conversations around some of the tech elite people around architecture. Cloud architects are in high demand and there's two schools of thought. There's a persona around a systems architect, more of a systems view, operating systems kind of view, that's cloud that's operating, environment, serverless, advanced, these are kind of concepts that is a systems-oriented thinker. And then you have the application developer that looks like an app server kind of world. Those are all paradigms that we've lived through. >> Right. >> Now coming together now in one, horizontally scaled both cloud that's a system, vertical specialization around the apps, and with dev ops layer, having these guys work together. Talk about this dynamic, your thoughts on it, how it shapes employee selection, people who lead projects. 'Cause the CTO and architect role's now more important, but the software side's just as important. >> Yeah so I think one thing that's become very clear is that we need to make it easier for the domain experts in an application area to just take care of their part. And so that's why like one of the previous episodes we talked about here was about istea, where we've actually separated out essentially the data play, the transport of data around with security, encryption, identity, and everything else from the actual application code of the micro service. That makes it much easier because now the engineering teams are too large, you can't have everybody know everything anymore, like you say, we've got specialists in different areas. We need to be able to provide then, underlying systems that connect these things and that underlying system then has to be managed by your operations people. So we've got dev ops where the application people are writing code actually that the operations people use, so that we can actually have this kind of uniform infrastructure that is maintainable. >> And security is super important and all that good stuff. >> Yeah so Lew it's interesting, we've been watching so many of the pieces we've worked on OpenStack, it was really from the bottoms up building the infrastructure, we've seen the dynamic the last two years, Kubernetes some, and server-less even more, coming from the top down. We want to get your thoughts on that, we've been digging in and trying to tease out some of the Knative pieces that are being discussed here, versus some of the functions things that are happening, especially in Amazon and Microsoft, I'd love to get your take. >> I think we're always seeing this progression in platforms for computing, and programming languages, and paths we've talked about years ago. All of these things are designed always to make it easier. So you're right we've got for example Knative now really coming on as saying can we standardize a way specifically helping Kubernetes people move into this area. Like I've mentioned before the Kubeflow again, how can we start to standardize these pieces? The beauty of this is, the standardized pieces are coming out in open source. So everybody gets it, and that means it's deployable in your public clouds, it's deployable in your data center, and then through a lot of the hybrid technology that Cisco's working, you can connect those together. But you're right we're going to continue to see innovation, that's great, because we need that, we need that constantly. What we need to be able to do is make it easier to consume and then integrate into these systems. And that's where I think Kubernetes has a lot do with how we make it easier. >> Final question on Cisco then I want to go on a more personal note with you on your situation which is news breaking here on theCUBE. Cisco has successfully transformed it's direction, it's been always a great leader in networking, always a great business, billions and billions of dollars in revenue. Now with CloudNative and Kubernetes, the relationship I saw with Amazon, you got Google, you guys have taken that systems view in making things programmable. Explain the Cisco strategy from your perspective as a CTO and as a legend in the industry, for the people that know Cisco, know the old Cisco, what is the new Cisco? And how does Kubernetes and how does all this CloudNative fit into the new Cisco? >> I think the new Cisco really is focused now on where customers are taking their computing resources and it is in this multi-cloud world where we're seeing it's not a fight anymore. You can't say I have a reason to keep things here in my data center, I'm never going to go to cloud, and other customers are saying I'm never going to have a data center, now everybody's saying we're probably going to have both. And Cisco as a networking company, this plays right into our strength because what you have to be able to do is now connect those environments in a secure way, in a manageable way. And so this plays right into where Cisco's growth I think is going to be, it'll be in much more of these kinds of services that allow that to happen, and in the relationships and partnerships that we have with the major cloud providers. >> This basically, the decomposition of monolithic applications into sets of microservices is connected by the network. >> Exactly right. >> This is the fundamental beauty of where you guys see that tailwind. >> Exactly. >> Awesome. Well Lew you've been a legend in the industry, I've been following your career from the beginning. You've been- you have product that's in the Computers Museum you've done amazing work at Sun Microsystems, I mean just a great story career, the work you've done at Cisco, you've been on theCUBE so many times, I don't know that number. You've really contributed to the industry and this news now about your situation, share the news about what's happening with you. >> Well I made announcements at our CNCF board and our OpenStack board meetings that I'm leaving Cisco and so I'm having to withdraw from the board positions as well as Cloud Foundry and that's sad in a way because I have relationships with those people, but it many ways after I want to spend some time to really see where the future is again, because as you know in my career I've changed several times. And I'm so looking forward to actually, now going into sort of a new direction which may be much more moving up the stack. I think there's very exciting things going on in AI, there's exciting things going on in genomics. There's a lot of activity going on so we've been building this technology for a purpose to allow us to have those kinds of things. Now I want to start focusing much more directly. >> And you're leaving Cisco on what date? >> Leaving Cisco beginning of January. >> Well congratulations, great work and I think one of the trends I think this speaks to is I see a lot of computer scientists, a lot of people who have some DNA from the old ways like you do, and been there, and contributed at a seminal level, just some great contributions. Seeing computer science as an opportunity to solve problems. This is kind of a renaissance from seasoned pioneers and young people coming together. This is a great opportunity, is that kind of what you're thinking, you're just going to attack the problem? >> There's 8000 people here, this show's sold out and this is all developers so people who have background in computer science or are getting online and learning it themselves, this is an opportunity and the time to get in. >> You've been a great mentor to many, you've been a great contributor in the open source community, again, your contributions at the systems level and you understand certainly what's going on with CloudNative, looking forward to following up and congratulations. >> Yep, well I hope to be back again. >> Of course, you're VIP CUBE alumni. Lew Tucker, exciting news, Cisco's transformed. He's moving on to- taking on some big new challenges, thanks for coming on theCUBE really appreciate it. Lew Tucker, Vice President CTO systems, Cisco systems, moving on to some new endeavors. Here in theCUBE we're covering the live coverage here at KubeCon CloudNative I'm John Furrier, Stu Miniman, back with more day two interviews after this short break. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: Live from Seattle Washington, it's the Cube covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon, North America, 2018. Brought to you by Redhat, the CloudNative Computing Foundation, and it's ecosystem's partners. (techno music) >> Okay welcome back everyone. We are live in Seattle for KubeCon and CloudNativeCon 2018, Cube's live coverage three days. Day one of a full house event here, through 8,000 people, doubled from last year, I'm John Furrier for Stu Miniman. Our next two guests are from Red Hat. Great to have these guys as our guests, as also thank Red Hat for being great sponsors. Brian "Redbeard" Harrington, Cube Alumni Back Product Manager of Service Mesh at Red Hat, and William Oliveria, Product Manager Serverless at Red Hat, we'll hear a lot about that. You guys, first of all, thanks for coming on, and thanks to your company Red Hat, for being a great supporter of the Cube and the community, the contribution you guys have helped up make, we really appreciate that. Thank you. >> Absolutely delighted to be here. >> Happy to be here. >> John Furrier: Alright, so let's get into it. So service meshes are hot because now Kubernetes is kind of like, we're seeing that is totally stabilized, and now you start to see the engineering, and the value creation happening in layers. Shim layers they call here, I got state-full applications. So you're starting to see service meshes conceptually adopt. Give us a quick update on where that is, how real is it, what's the progress, and what's some of the state-of-the-art activities around it? >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Well the beautiful thing is, using a service mesh is not anything new at all. I mean, that was really built to top the Netflix OSS ideas. They've been around for seven, eight years now. It's really just kind of decomposing what were a bunch of individual libraries that you had to implement into more infrastructure services, so that you know that you just, regardless of the language, environment, etc., you've always got a certain base platform ready to go. >> John Furrier: Is Service Mesh going to be a standard thing? Is it going to be, service meshes of your flavor, is there going to be certain instances custom services? How do you see that coming out with CSDO, Knative? There's things evolving. >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] Mmhm, yeah. >> What's the state there, is that going to be the new normal, or is it going to see settling? What's your view on that? >> [Brian "Redbeard" Harrington] I think to some extent, it depends on the scale that you're at. If you are at the scale of Yelp or Stripe, one of those, and using Envoy, you already have a good idea of what that mesh is going to look like, so you're building that control plain, in the way that you need it. Where Istio and Linker D and some of the other ones come in, is when you are a smaller scale and you need to figure out what you're control plane is going to look like, that's where it really shines, because it gives you something that you can just start using and has some training wheels on it to make sure that you've got a stable platform to use from day one. >> Stu Miniman: So one of the other news items today I wanted to get your opinion on is, EtsyD has been handed over to Linux Foundation and CNCF, so EtsyD came out of CoreOS of course, which was acquired by Red Hat. Give us a little bit of the update as to why that happened and why it's a good thing for the community. >> So I think for any stable platform, it's really been the theme of what I've been talking about, you've got to know that it's safe to use the software, that there's going to be a longer term vision, and a lot of community guidance around that, and that's why Red Hat made the contribution. When we were at CoreOS, we really wanted to, and it was something that was ultimately a goal, but it kind of became a little bit of a race condition. Do we go ahead and contribute it, and then hope that other folks will join us in building it? Just by open sourcing it, we saw some contributions from IBM around PowerPC architecture and Maso's, and other groups coming in, but putting it just full-bore in the CNCF really guarantees that there will be ongoing community collaboration. >> John Furrier: Just to give a shout out to you guys at CoreOS, you guys did an amazing job, and I think this is a benefit of the Red Hat relationship, because that's the start up dilemma you have, do we get it in there, how do we support it, how do we make it better, is it competitive, was our focus what we optimized it for? But now with the Red Hat piece you guys should lean back, and do the right thing and get it in there with the right resource push, is that kind of how it's evolving, because that seems like what's-- >> It absolutely is. This goes beyond just EtsyD. The really rad thing is that I think it's safe to say that there is no part of the CoreOS portfolio that really isn't getting open sourced. You can kind of read into that what you will but, it meant that there was no technology that was getting left behind, nad that our users who really felt passionately about pieces of software, again, we're going to be able to have that utility. >> Stu Miniman: I think it goes back, we've been at Red Hat summits for many years and Red Hat is a hundred percent open sourced, it must be, and even I go back to Polvey and yourself and Brandon, all of the tools at CoreOS were creating is, they were all going to be open sourced tools that you will be involved in. I guess William, a good point to bring you into the conversation, Serverless, and fully open source, if not been have you thought about it at least for the last couple of years so, before we get into the Knative, give us the Red Hat positioning, where does Serverless fit into the architecture? And then we'd love to tease out all of the Knative discussion. >> Absolutely. For us, Serverless then is a lot about the user experience, and how we can simplify how developers can leverage technology such as Itsiu and service meshes and everything around the developer experience on top of Kuberneties. Serverless can deliver that and a lot of what we believe is that, it should not be then tied too much to functions because we can do that for functions, but we can do that for any class of applications actually running on top of the platform, and that's a lot of why we believe that Knative is this powerful interesting project going on out there right now. We already have all these different players collaborating, which is fantastic for inter-oper ability, we make sure that we can leverage that implementation on different platforms, we can run that anywhere pretty much on top of Kuberneties, and that's a big goal, to make sure that you can plug all these different parts as part of a consistent user experience there. >> Stu Miniman: Okay so we had the cube at the Google event this summer when it was announced I was at Serverless conference this year and to be honest, a lot of people were kind of scratching their heads trying to understand. Okay, Serverless and Kuberneties are going together but I'm not sure I quite get it? Give us the update where are we, when does this get baked into platforms, what can I do today, where do I learn more? >> Today, what we are offering is the three big modules as part of Knative are built, events, and serving. So it's the basic capabilities for you to build a serverless platform that, can again, work on any kind of application, not only functions, and we are at that stage. The project is very new, we are still in 0.2 release, at this point, so there's a lot of missing parts around user experience and what-not, but we are getting there, and that's where most of the focus is going on right now. But with something like events, that's a perfect opportunity for example, to integrate with all the different services we have available, let's say on Service Catalog, or through the operator's framework, for example, to connect to the applications that you are building on top of Kuberneties. That was part of the things that was missing to connect the dots when your implementing those applications, how are you going to consume events, how are you going to consume services, how those applications are going to scale? That's a lot of what we're addressing with Knative right now. >> What's the big walk away around the current event here at KubeCon? We hear maturity, great, check. A lot of people are fine in their swim lanes or whatever, their value layer, check. Clear a lot more gaps things white space start to appear, when that visibility lifts. What do you guys see the opportunities for the community, and you guys, certainly one of the big players, Red Hat, leading the way, as this ecosystem is, I mean companies I've never heard of, coming out of the woodwork. This is vibrant! There are opportunities for people to kind of, play in these white spaces. Do you guys have any thoughts on where you could give guidance to where people could jump in and create value? >> Well, there's two areas that are really fascinating to me. One is the fact that now that Kuberneties has gotten to the level of boarding infrastructure, it means that there are a lot more companies that are really comfortable saying, "we're building a top that, we don't care about what the compute layer is, because we just know". So you see a lot of organizations that are coming in, because they want to collaborate with other organizations, and see how they're using it to cross pollinate and get new ideas. That's why you've got full retail companies like Nordstrom here, that are the local band in town, and they're happy to come and show off, and you've also got a lot of, to the second piece of that, emerging companies that are finding areas, white space that we didn't consider as the incumbance in the space, and they're providing direct value. I think that as we have seen a lot more acquisitions coming through the space, there is going to be a lot of opportunity for the organization that has that five, ten, fifty million dollar idea to come in, build it quickly, know that it works on top of Kuberneties, and then be able to port it to Enterprise software that runs on a local cluster or across clouds. >> John Furrier: So new business model innovations are coming out of it as well., hence opportunities. It's okay to have a fifty million dollar business. >> Yes. >> Not bad, and could be acquired as well, some other value there. Okay, Microservice is hard to manage. Guys, talk about this dynamic. This is one of the things you guys really work hard to address, I know. We hear a lot about it. Porting to Microservice, "Hey, I'm in Enterprise! We should move from our Red Hat Linux implementation, to full cloud, and then it's going to go all the way to Microservices." Well, what the hell is Microservices? So again, this is kind of like, well I'm not saying that they're thinking that way, but this is not that easy. How do you guys make it easier? What are some of the speed bumps that customers hit? And what are the things to overcome those? What's your view on that? >> [William Oliveria] I'll talk about, first of all, how Knative is contributing to that. Again, the whole thing that we're talking about, not being tied to functions is because again, I want to leverage the serverless capabilities available in the platform for Microservices as well. And whenever you're talking about monitoring, tracing, observe-abilities, Istio comes into play, and solved that problem and connect all those different Microservices in a very nice way. With Knative, things we can improve on the user experience, so you can do that in a very easy way, when you are coming from this brown field applications when you are migrating to the cloud, when you are trying to port those applications, it's a big learning curve. You got to learn about all these different technologies. So if you can improve that user experience, so you can do what you do best, which is focus on your code, and then we can take care of a lot the complexities of building and wiring together all these different parts on the platform. We'll do that. And that's a lot of what we are doing with serverless. >> That's where the manage piece comes in, right? >> [William Oliveria] Right. >> And then the monitoring, that part of it to? >> Yeaa, well to build on top of that, there is the organizations that want to still design things the way that they've been doing it. And we've had a big focus with a project called Red Hat OpenShift Application Runtimes, or RHOAR, which it goes more in the direction of the past concept, which is a big difference between OpenShift and TechTonic, for example, and through that, a lot of the RHOAR bundles for Python and Java and Node.js kind of integrate in the concepts of distributed tracing and permethius monitoring and things like that, to make sure that you focus, again, to William's point, on building the thing that brings yuour business value and standing on the shoulders of software at the infrastructure level. >> That's great stuff and it's a lot more work to do. >> Yeah, just the last thing, I know Red Hat's been working on trying to, I don't know if you call it "templatize", but how do I make it easier for people to, I'm trying to remember the name of the term for it. >> Yeah, so it's the OpenShift Application Runtime. Having what used to be the gear in the old OpenShift realm. Which is just here is a great template, a package to start from, so that you can go in and implement the things that you care about, and really step then into, the "Okay, we know that the code's going to work okay, because we built that, we know the application platform is going to be predictable, we know that we have all of these additional hooks to manage it." So hopefully, it lowers the bar, to make it trivial to get started. >> That's awesome. Well, Redbeard and William, thanks for coming on the Cube, really appreciate it. Just quick plug, what's up next for you guys? What's on the horizon? What itch are you scratching these days? What's getting you motivated? >> The big things that's exciting for me is the fourth coming release of OpenShift 4.0, which gives me the room to shine on the GA release of all the service mesh stuff. And then, kind of in parallel, just a lot of the vector packet processing, FITO, high scale networking stuff just sends a tingle up my spine. I love keeping an eye on that >> For me we just announced a review of Knative and OpenShift as an add-on. You can just install and run that when you're on OpenShift, and like what Redbeard said, I'm looking forward for 4.0 as well, to make sure that I could plug that user experience on top of 4.0 and we are already doing a lot for the ops side, and I'd like to do that also now for our developers as well. >> Well when you're ready, we'll pop a digital cork on Twitter, let us know, we'll certainly cover it. Thanks for coming out, appreciate the insight. >> We'll bring you the insights and all the data here at KubeCon CloudNative. Of course we're the Cube, don't be confused with KubeCon, on one of our conferences coming. But only kidding, we're not going to have that. Thanks for watching day one, live coverage. Stay with us for more coverage after this short break. (techno music)

>> Announcer.: From Copenhagen, Denmark, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Hello everyone, and welcome back. This is theCUBE's exclusive coverage of KubeCon 2018 in Europe, part of the CNCF, Cloud Native Compute Foundation, part of the Linux Foundation. I'm John Furrier with my cohost Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Dirk Hohndel, Vice President, Chief Open Source Officer for VMware. Great to see you. CUBE alumni, welcome back. >> Thank you, good to be here. >> So you had a keynote, smashing success today on stage, about open source, all five minutes of it, congratulations. (laughing) Take a minute to explain, I have some specific questions on VMWare, office of the CTO, how you guys are working on some really interesting things. But first, take a minute to explain, the VMware approach to open source that you're leading. What's the architecture of it, how is it organized, can you take a minute to explain-- >> Sure. >> The VMware? >> So we use open source components in literally every single one of our products, and we have a structure where each of the BUs is engaged in open source in the components that they're using, in projects that are related to the business, and they have a central organization that sits in the office of the CTO that I run, so the open source program office, which has much more of a focus of pure open source work. Focused on up stream, focus on the problems that the community sees much more than something that is product driven. I also own the whole compliance work that everyone needs to do to make sure that you follow the licenses and all that. But, fundamentally the balance between having the central organization that has maybe the center of expertise and has people who do open source and nothing but open source, and on the other hand bringing that expertise into the BU. Bring it closer to the products, and engaging across the company. We have more than 7,000 software engineers across the company and we want every single one of them to be mindful and understanding of how open source works, and how we are engaged in that space. >> And how many people, just some stats, can you share, by the numbers, how many people are on the teams, R&D, there's also in the CTO office. How many folks are on your team roughly speaking? >> So I have currently, I want to say, this is quick, 20 some odd people under me, but across the company it's a lot more. There are several hundred people who are, in their daily work engaged with open source all the time. >> That's great. >> So your team is centralized in the business units. Go ahead. >> No, that's great. I was going to say, what is it look like for people that want to contribute code that aren't on your team? Is there a process that's pretty easy to go through? Or can they just put it on GitHub? We would all like that but. >> Yeah so, we have an internal tool that we've developed they simply can request to contribute to an existing project and it goes through a very quick review and depending on the topic, this is typically a two day turnaround time, where they get approval from the BU VP and from me. And if you want to open source a project, so if you have something internal that you've done, that you want to bring out into the community, it's little more complicated with naming, and branding and what not. A lot more people need to nod basically, but it still takes usually a couple of weeks-- >> Yeah. >> And it goes through. But it's an automated process, it's driven by a PM out of my organization. >> That's great. >> And it tries to make it really, really easy. One of my big goals joining VMware was to remove friction out of this process, and to encourage people to engage with the projects that are out there, but also for us to bring software into the open that we've developed, for example internal tools, and make them useful for other people. >> Definitely, I think that's great. >> You mentioned open source models about people, can you elaborate on that because I think this is an important point, we were talking before we came on, about that role of people. >> Well, so open source is... People think of this as a software development methodology, and it is, but fundamentally it's a social phenomenon. It's this experiment of saying the way we do our work is based on relationships. It's based on trust. So I trust you that you've reviewed this code and I take that code that you've reviewed. I know that you are the expert in this area so if I make changes in this area I'll send them to you and ask for your review. It's all about relationships. And these relationships are between people, not between companies. So in so many ways, the role travels with the person, and not with the company. And we have seen this in many cases, where people move from company to company, but the work, their influence, the role comes with them. So it's very much empowering for the engineers. But it's also from a purely human perspective, an engagement where, it's not just about the code that you write, but it's about how you treat people. How you engage with them. This is why conferences like this are so wonderful. There are 4,000 people here, 4,500 people here, and you meet people whom, with whom you've been emailing for years. And this social aspect of this for an introvert like myself, is at the same time a little scary, but also it's super exciting because it is people who are driving this industry. >> John: The face to face connections really make a difference. >> I think it's the community. I mean the community always comes first, I think. I will say this, you build a community, you don't launch one, and I think that's absolutely critical. And I think, can you talk about some of the changes in mentality that you're working with across VMware right now with getting that community first sort of thing moving? >> Well, so, I mean, VMware is a very engineering centric organization. We are driven, we're founded by engineers and driven by engineers, I mean Pat Gelsinger our CEO was an engineer, and so the underlying ethos of contribution and of trying to fix problems and if you see something you go and fix it, that is something that has always been there at VMware, but what I've been trying to bring in to VMware is much more of an up-stream focus. An understanding of, it's not just important that you understand the technology well and you use it well, but also that you contribute back. And that you are seen as playing a big role in this industry. And if you look at the impact that VMware has had in the broader open source community, and how we have shifted our approach to being part of this over the last two years, I think it's been extremely successful. And you can see this with our footprint here, how many talks we have here, and how much presence we have here. I think there's 70 VMware employees at KubeCon this year. >> That's great. >> It's now cultural, it's a Tier One, I'll say Tier One role, not Tier Two when we were growing up in the industry, but part of the business software define, infrastructure, software is taking over the world as Mark Andress said is happening. Open source is there powering it. So I have to ask you the question, that would be on my mind if I'm thinking about going all in as a company, if I'm an enterprise. Hey, you know what, I like this approach. I'm going to go all in. Complete commitment. What's the best practice, what's your advice, because this is something people are talking about doing not just putting a toe in the water going all in and committing to an open source business model with their company. What's your advice for shepherding that process, cultural ethos. What's your take? >> It starts with language. It starts with how you talk about what you're doing. I hear a lot of people saying things like, "Oh, I consume open source," well it bugs me because you consume a commodity. You consume electricity, you don't care where it comes from it's just a plug in the wall. Whatever, right? Open source is always around, about the people. It's always about how do people work. How do they think about security, about releases, about maintenance? What's their work flow? And you can't just consume an open source component, you need to engage with them, you need to understand how their work affects your work. And so my recommendation is always, start with your own language. Start with the approach that you're taking when you're talking about all this. And then figure out, where are you using it, how are you using it, what are the changes that you've made to the components that you're using? How about contributing those changes back? It's a very simple first step to engage. And it's actually a step that makes total business sense because if you have your private branches, your private patches, the next time the upstream project goes through a new release, you need to port these changes, that costs money. So it's actually cheaper to simply contribute them back and have them maintained by the project. And you can use upstream, or you have a minimum set of small adjustments that don't make sense to return to the community. And this is really how you get your toe into the water. Because now you're not just a user of this, you're engaged, you're a contributor. >> You're operationalizing your business. >> Yes, you are, and then the next step is thinking about what of my internal tool sets that maybe are not my core product, but are the things that we build to build the product as part of our workflow. What of those could be used for the product community? So at VMware, for example, we built a software design system, it's called Clarity, and you can use it to create angular-based JavaScript UIs. So we use this for all of our products. We made this tool an open source tool and it's massively successful project, has weekly releases, has a ton of users, a very very active community. And it's one of those cases where you take something that isn't the core of your business, but you are earning your chops in the community. And take it one step at a time and broaden-- >> John: That's the trust relationship you're building? >> That is very much this trust relationship. And it's this track record that you're building of not only doing something, oh here's this old product and I'll open source it and then I walk away. So we call this dump and run right? You throw it over the wall, it's now open source and then you say, customer you're now on your own because it's now open source. >> It's abandoned no one's paying attention. >> Yeah that's a terrible model, but a very good model is one where you think about creating these relationships and creating a track record of being there every week, looking at the bug reports, looking at the issues, looking at the pull requests, and engaging with the people out there. And the value that this creates, the amount of value that you're getting from your outside contributor, very quickly outweighs the additional cost that it takes to get this IP clean and released and all that. >> And then there is documentation and documentation is a tremendous amount of heavy lifting on the inside of a company. But if you can spread it over an open source product that you have, it's great. And it's a really good way for people to start out in open source, I find. >> And you just said open source product, so this one of those things-- >> Project. >> Where, yeah. This is something that I think is where we come back to language being so important. I always talk to the folks internally about this distinction. What is the open source project? What is it, what the community does, what lives on GitHub or what lives in the public side of this? And then what is your product that is based on this project? And in your thinking always keep these two separate. Understand that everything that happens in the project is what is publicly available and what is done in conjunction with your community. >> John: With the team. >> Versus your product which focuses on how does the customer use this. Because open source projects, in and of themselves, are typically built by developers for developers. And the end user has actually different needs. And this is where the business model come in and that's kind of closing the question that you just asked, because the value that the company is providing this space is the understanding of the customer needs. And is the ability to take something that is creating enormous and impressive innovation, which is the community, and taking this to a place where then someone can use it in production. Where it's scales, where it's secure, where it has Day-One and Day-Two operationalization, where it has strong documentation. There is a support number you can call. All these things that a customer is-- >> John: Needs. >> Needs and that an open source project by themselves is unlikely to create. >> It's like putting money in the bank. You can't just take money out of the bank. You've got to deposit good will. The give-get is part of that project and you're saying make the product focus on the customer problems. >> Dirk: Absolutely. >> My question is are you talking kind of about a services wrapper that you put around it and maybe a couple of additional features? In part, or what are you actually kind of, just to get to the crux of it. >> So there are many different ways, many different business models around open source. For us, we are still an enterprise software company. So open source generally provides components of what we do. It may be the API that the customer is asking for. So today, Kubernetes is a set of APIs a lot of people want to use as their way to provide a container service for the orchestration, right? But what is the underlying infrastructure? How do you generate a persistent storage? A flexible networking infrastructure that can grow and shrink as your work loads grow and shrink? How do you manage your individual nodes? How do you deal with internal billings so that you can bill your data center time to your departments? And all these operational aspects are things that we're trying to solve with our products. But we offer to the customer an open source based API. So that's where our business value lies fundamentally. >> Lauren: Okay. >> Communities are a concept that's premised on create value before you capture it. And I think what you're saying is, if you have a project, you better bring something to the table, not just distract. It's a taker. >> Yes. >> If you're just taking all the time, it's not a good trust relationship building, that's what I hear you saying. >> And you will also not be successful because your customer needs, as your customers are coming to you and they're running into issues, you need to be able to address those issues. Which means you need to be productive part of that community. You need to have the in-depth understanding to then help them. >> I've seen people do things like they couldn't get a business model going so they say, "Oh we're just going to open source it, "and hope that a miracle happens." And it's not really that way. I mean, people do open source for the right reasons to bring code to the table, but you're saying nurturing that community project is a for all kind of thing. >> Fundamentally, I always think there are so many brilliant developers in these communities. And if you go into these communities with the assumption that you can learn something from the other developers, you can learn something from the other companies that are involved. And then you can contribute the areas where you are strong, where you have your core knowledge. And you wrap this into a product that provides value for your customers, everyone wins. Your customer wins, >> That a good way-- >> Your community wins, you win. >> So if you're out there thinking about it think about your core competency and what you want to open source, you got a good fit. Okay what's new for you? You diving, you're an avid scuba diver. We talked about that last time you were on theCUBE. What's new with you? >> I haven't been diving. Actually I drove up to Hootsbor to dive in 48 degrees Fahrenheit water, because I haven't been in the water for so long. My next trip is going to be Okinava which is a lot warmer than that. No, the work keeps me busy, so not as much scuba diving as I would want. But we've been very busy. We've been pushing a lot more contributions to a much larger set of projects. My team has been growing, so we've been actively hiring. And we're developing a second generation, internal set of processes to deal with all of these questions you asked about earlier, of how to make sure that you know where you contribute, how you contribute, which components you use. So we're revamping our internal processes around this. >> Lauren: That's great >> And it's keeping us very busy, but I have to say, especially, if you look at this conference here, the success is really very rewarding. We have so many more people actively engaged, and recognized in the community as key contributors. It's been a very very successful year since last we talked. >> It's awesome. Well thanks for your leadership at VMware. We love the KubeCon, we love the Linux Foundation, they've done amazing work. CNCF is just exploded with success and it's a result of, the trend is everyone's friend, which is cloud computing and software defined everything so, VMware. Thanks for coming out Dirk, appreciate it. Live coverage here in Copenhagen, Denmark. This is theCUBE, I'm John Furrier. Lauren Cooney co-hosting with me this week. And we'll be back with more, stay with us after this short break. (energetic music)

>> Announcer: It's theCUBE! Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon Europe 2018. Brought to you by the CloudNative Computing Foundation. And its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's exclusive coverage, here in Copenhagen Denmark this is KubeCon 2018 Europe, I'm John Furrier with my co-host Lauren Cooney. Our next guest is Tyler Jewell, he's the CEO of WSO2 with some big news, they're introducing a new programming language called Ballerina. Welcome to theCUBE thanks for joining us! >> Hey thank you for having me. >> So you're now the new CEO of WSO2, couple months almost a year. You guys have big news introducing a new programming language called Ballerina here. Tell us a bit about what this is. What's the big story? >> Well Ballerina is our approach to addressing the integration gap, which is what happens when integration products like ESB's are not agile, and programming languages make integration difficult. This is a language and a platform that have been co-designed together to be both integration simple, and agile. >> So take a step back how did you get here? Talk about what WSO2 is, and then why the motivation to do the language? What are some of the specific details, and how long have you been working on it? Take a minute to explain what the situation is. >> Well WS02 is a company that's been around for 13 years, we have 550 employees and we have about 500 customers, and we make integration software. These are things like message brokers, data mediation, and we do this for large scale projects around the world. And all of our technology is open-source. Now we power roughly five trillion transactions a year around the world, and we've done thousands of integration projects and what we've found is that they are all still waterfall development. You have to plan these things long in advance, it requires huge teams, and there's no decentralization of the work. And we need to make integration agile again. And in order to do that we needed to basically rethink the entire approach to the way that integrations are done. And we put it into a programming language so that we can do compile time abstractions that generate distributed system primitives. >> It's almost like you're solving your own problem, probably the frustration must have been all imagined. Another waterfall project again coming back, again and again repeating it, with Cloud the time to market is one of the key value propositions. Integration obviously with Kubernetes, workflows, and also portability is a big concern. What are some of the things that are driving that demand right now in your mind? Is is speed is it the tech demand for applications, what's the key? >> I think that what we're seeing is, really sophisticated and complex demand coming from kind-cuser consumers. Companies like Uber Slack and Amazon have witnessed this. And in order to scale to meet this complex demand, these organizations have had to create architectures that are highly disaggregated. And infrastructure like Kubernetes facilitates that disaggregation of architecture. Now when we saw the API economy, this was one form of disaggregation but now we've got microservices and serverless which are tenexing that. And as you disaggregate your architecture, you're going to have an explosion of programmable endpoints. There are 50 billion right now. The forecasts are that it's going to go to well over a trillion. And when that happens, integration is the glue that brings these things together. Integration is going to be the next generation problem that we have to deal with. >> Totally right I was just going to say glue layer, but you mentioned glue. Folks are getting out of the keynote right now, the CloudNative Foundation. Pretty massive growth, look at the logosly he sponsors. Just the amount of companies now joining. It seems like a land grab on one hand, but it's really the market just driving it. And it's coming down to this notion of glue layers, where with open-source it's about really taking pre-existing code, and then figuring out how to abstract that, make it simpler, create security, these are all operating system kind of questions. >> Well I think also it's open right? I mean that is part of the key here, it's the fact that it's open-source. And I think you guys are the last independent type of company that is actually doing this from an open-source perspective, is that right? >> Yeah we are the seventh largest open-source company, all the software that we publish is Apache License, and we found a way to monetize open-source without having to play open core games, where there's proprietary stacks on top of that. >> Lauren: That's great. >> What's the licensing concerns that you're seeing with Apache versus other foundations, where are developers gravitating to these days? That's always a question people always look at after the fact, they just jump in and start coding. What are some of the updates that you see in the industry around licensing and IP? >> Well first, we're still seeing a massive shift away from proprietary software into open-source software. There's still a lot of organizations that are adopting proprietary, but now they have program offices dedicated to open-source, and it encourages onboarding, adoption and giving back to open-source projects, so that trend is still significant. And as a result there's a lot of open-source foundations and non-profits that are benefiting from that. I think we're seeing huge growth in the Linux foundation, and all of its sub-organizations that are there, and we've also seen a resurgence in other open-source foundations like the Eclipse foundation as well. >> Lauren and I were talking about the opening about Kubernetes and that, outside of our bubble in Silicon Valley or the industry, you go to a standard enterprise. Waterfall moving to agile, Kubernetes is new. >> Tyler: Yeah. >> So in your opinion, what does Kubernetes mean for enterprises, and how should people think about the big movement to CloudNative, with respect to continuing the application development and continuing the innovation? >> I think that the momentum around Kubernetes, particularly around the ecosystem consolidating around it, means that we have a de facto standard for a run-time platform that can engage both operations and development. And in the first time over the past 20 years, we do not have a fragmented market anymore. And when you don't have a fragmented market, the productivity gains that come from the value added layers on top of that are going to increase dramatically, and I think that's why we so many vendors here, and why we see now I think almost 4,000 people at this conference this year as well. >> It's super awesome. What do you see as the next wave of innovation with the standardization? With the standardization people can rally around it. >> Yeah. >> Where's the next work being done around Kubernetes? >> I think that the next level of work here is, this is the year of the service mesh. And really the service mesh is a representation of how you build complex orchestrations, and applications that have a lot of compositions around that so workflow, stateful behaviors, long running processes, this is the next layer up, and that's where the standardization is going to go next. >> And certainly containers are great. How about security what's your view on security? Because that's a big discussion we were asking ourselves, okay what's the state of the art? Obviously Google's got an approach, we're seeing what they're doing. Is it baked is it being baked out? What's new what's your view on security? >> I think that security continues to be a massive problem. The introduction of GDPR this year really brings the spotlight onto all the data privacy issues that we have to deal with around the world, but I think we have a fundamental problem with security which is it's still this baked-on, add-on thing that's applied to your applications, and instead we actually need to look at programming languages in the apps that you write, as being security proof from the very beginning. And that's going to require a programming language to do that at the lowest level and the OS as well >> How is Ballerina handling that? Are they doing it up front? >> Well our approach to it is that we assume all data is tainted. And that the developer has to explicitly say this is safe data to avoid intrusion and tax on that, and so the compiler will actually reject any code that is not explicitly given that tag. >> Yeah assume the worst, hope for the best right? >> How are you looking to onboard developers to this platform this is a different programming language, talk a little bit about that. >> This is a programming language which means it's all about developer evangelism all day long. And you and I both started our careers 20 years ago in developer evangelism Lauren right? So it is going door to door, meet up to meet up, giving technical demos and encouraging people to get involved in the community and to write apps with it, that's how you do it. >> What's the state of the language now shipping? Is it available? What's the announcement? What's your plan how are you going to roll this thing out? >> It is shipping now, we just hit our .970 release we've been at it for 3 years, we've got a hundred committers on the project, but we just went public this week with Ballerina.io. At the .970 release, we are still making some minor language tweaks, and we hope to get to a Juanado language lock by the end of this year, and then we'll have backwards compatibility for three to five years with that. And probably sometime this summer, WSO2 our company will offer commercial support, and have it in use and production with our customer accounts >> And any feedback from early users? What's the vibe what's the feedback, what are you hearing? >> The vibe is hot right? It's a new programming language, it's got an awesome logo associated with this, but more importantly the language is easy for anyone to learn in a couple of hours, and developers love to see the glue that they can pick up and put into their toolbox that quickly. >> For the folks watching that aren't here in Europe, that didn't make the trip from the US or are watching remote, What's the big takeaway in your mind of the KubeCon 2018 Europe? What's the stage look like for you here? What's the show happenings? What's the big themes what's the takeaway? >> I think that the big takeaway is that the scale is finally now approachable for the rest of us on that, and that the ecosystem is ready to support you, and that it's crossed the chasm out of the early adopter and into the growth phase and ready for broad based adoption at this point. >> And the growth of microservices has been pretty significant? >> Ridiculous. >> Yeah cool. (laughter) Tyler thanks for coming on theCUBE appreciate it! >> Lauren: Thank you. >> Utterly my pleasure thank you for having me. >> Hey live coverage here in Denmark, we're in Copenhagen for KubeCon 2018. I'm John Furrier with Lauren Cooney, back with more live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)