(light music) (airy white noise rumbling) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. We're here, day four of our coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. There's been about, we've heard, north of 55,000 folks here in person. We're seeing only a fraction of that but it's packed in the expo center. We're at the Venetian Expo, Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. Dave, we've had such great conversations as we always do on theCUBE. With the AWS ecosystem, we're going to be talking with another partner on that ecosystem and what they're doing to innovate together next. >> Well, we know security is the number one topic on IT practitioners, mine, CIOs, CISOs. We also know that they don't have the bench strength, that's why they look to manage service providers, manage service security providers. It's a growing topic, we've talked about it. We talked about it at re:Inforce earlier this year. I think it was July, actually, and August, believe it or not, not everybody was at the Cape. It was pretty well attended conference and that's their security focus conference, exclusive on security. But there's a lot of security here too. >> Lot of security, we're going to be talking about that next. We have two guests from Capgemini joining us. Mike Wasielewski, the head of cloud security, and NextGen secure architectures, welcome Mike. Anne Saunders also joins us, the Director of Cybersecurity Technology Partnerships at Capgemini, welcome Anne. >> Thank you. >> Dave: Hey guys. >> So, day four of the show, how you feeling? >> Anne: Pretty good. >> Mike: It's a long show. >> It is a long, and it's still jamming in here. Normally on the last day, it dwindles down. Not here. >> No, the foot traffic around the booth and around the totality of this expo floor has been amazing, I think. >> It really has. Anne, I want to start with you. Capgemini making some moves in the waves in the cloud and cloud security spaces. Talk to us about what Cap's got going on there. >> Well, we actually have a variety of things going on. Very much partner driven. The SOC Essentials offering that Mike's going to talk about shortly is the kind of the starter offer where we're going to build from and build out from. SOC Essentials is definitely critical for establishing that foundation. A lot of good stuff coming along with partners. Since I manage the partners, I'm kind of keen on who we get involved with and how we work with them to build out value and focus on our overall cloud security strategy. Mike, you want to talk about SOC Essentials? >> Yeah, well, no, I mean, I think at Capgemini, we really say cybersecurity is part of our DNA and so as we look at what we do in the cloud, you'll find that security has always been an underpinning to a lot of what we deliver, whether it's on the DevSecOps services, migration services, stuff like that. But what we're really trying to do is be intentional about how we approach the security piece of the cloud in different ways, right? Traditional infrastructure, you mentioned the totality of security vendors here and at re:Inforce. We're really seeing that you have to approach it differently. So we're bringing together the right partners. We're using what's part of our DNA to really be able to drive the next generation of security inside those clouds for our clients and customers. So as Anne was talking about, we have a new service called the Capgemini Cloud SOC Essentials, and we've really brought our partners to bear, in this case Trend Micro, really bringing a lot of their intelligence and building off of what they do so that we can help customers. Services can be pretty expensive, right, when you go for the high end, or if you have to try to run one yourself, there's a lot of time, I think you mentioned earlier, right, the people's benches. It's really hard to have a really good cybersecurity people in those smaller businesses. So what we're trying to do is we're really trying to help companies, whether you're the really big buyers of the world or some of the smaller ones, right? We want to be able to give you the visibility and ability to deliver to your customers securely. So that's how we're approaching security now and we're cloud SOC Essentials, the new thing that we're announcing while we were here is really driving out of. >> When I came out of re:Invent, when you do these events, you get this Kool-Aid injection and after a while you're like hm, what did I learn? And one of the things that struck me in talking to people is you've got the shared responsibility model that the cloud has sort of created and I know there's complexities across cloud but let's just keep it at cloud generically for a moment. And then you've got the CISO, the AppDev, AppSecDev group is being asked to do a lot. They're kind of being dragged into security that's really not their wheelhouse and then you've got audit which is like the last line of defense. And so one of the things that struck me at re:Inforce is like, okay, Amazon, great job for their portion of the shared responsibility model but I didn't hear a lot in terms of making the CISO's life easier and I'm guessing that's where you guys come in. I wonder if you could talk about that trend, that conceptual layers that I just laid out and where you guys fit. >> Mike: Sure, so I think first and foremost, I always go back to a quote from, I think it's attributed to Peter Drucker, whether that's right or wrong, who knows? But culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And I think what we've seen in our conversations with whether you're talking to the CISO, the application team, the AppDev team, wherever throughout the organization, we really see that culture is what's going to drive success or failure of security in the org, and so what we do is we really do bring that totality of perspective. We're not just cloud, not just security, not just AppDev. We can really bring across the totality of the Capgemini estate. So that when we go, and you're right, a CISO says, I'm having a hard time getting the app people to deliver what I need. If you just come from a security perspective, you're right, that's what's going to happen. So what we try to do is so, we've got a great DevSecOps service, for example in the cloud where we do that. We bring all the perspectives together, how do we align KPIs? That's a big problem, I think, for what you're seeing, making CISO's lives easier, is about making sure that the app team KPIs are aligned with the CISO's but also the CISO's KPIs are aligned with the app teams. And by doing that, we have had really great success in a number of organizations by giving them the tools then and the people on our side to be able to make those alignments at the business level, to drive the right business outcome, to drive the right security outcome, the right application outcome. That's where I think we've really come to play. >> Absolutely, and I will say from a partnering perspective, what's key in supporting that strategy is we will learn from our partners, we lean on our partners to understand what the trends they're seeing and where they're having an impact with regards to supporting the CISO and supporting the overall security strategy within a company. I mean, they're on the cutting edge. We do a lot to track their technology roadmaps. We do a lot to track how they build their buyer personas and what issues they're dealing with and what issues they're prepared to deal with regards to where they're investing and who's investing in them. A lot of strategy around which partner to bring in and support, how we're going to address the challenges, the CISO and the IT teams are having to kind of support that overall. Security is a part of everything, DNA kind of strategy. >> Yeah, do you have a favorite example, Anne, of a partner that came in with Capgemini, helped a customer really be able to do what Capgemini is doing and that is, have cybersecurity be actually part of their DNA when there's so many challenges, the skills gap. Any favorite example that really you think articulates how you're able to enable organizations to achieve just that? >> Anne: Well, actually the SOC Essentials offering that we're rolling out is a prime example of that. I mean, we work very, very closely with Trend on all fronts with regards to developing it. It's one of those completely collaborative from day one to going to the customer and that it's almost that seamless connectivity and just partnering at such a strategic level is a great example of how it's done right, and when it's done right, how successful it can be. >> Dave: Why Trend Micro? Because I mean, I'm sure you've seen, I think that's Optiv, has the eye test with all the tools and you talk to CISOs, they're like really trying to consolidate those tools. So I presume there's a portfolio play there, but tell us, tell the audience a little bit more about why Trend Micro and I mean your branding with them, why those guys? >> Well, it goes towards the technology, of course, and all the development they've done and their position within AWS and how they address assuring security for our clients who are moving onto and running their estates on AWS. There's such a long heritage with regards to their technology platform and what they've developed, that deep experience, that kind of the strength of the technology because of the longevity they've had and where they sit within their domain. I try to call partners out by their domain and their area of expertise is part of the reason, I mean. >> Yeah, I think another big part of it is Gartner is expecting, I think they published this out in the next three years, we expect to see another consolidation both inside of the enterprises as well as, I look back a couple years, when Palo Alto went on a very nice spending spree, right? And put together a lot of really great companies that built their Prisma platform. So what I think one of the reasons we picked Trend in this particular case is as we look forward for our customers and our clients, not just having point solutions, right? This isn't just about endpoint protection, this isn't just about security posture management. This is really who can take the totality of the customer's problems and deliver on the right outcomes from a single platform, and so when we look at companies like Trend, like Palo, some of the bigger partners for us, that's where we try to focus. They're definitely best in breed and we bring those to our customers too for certain things. But as we look to the future, I think really finding those partners that are going to be able to solve a swath of problems at the right price point for their customers, that is where I think we see the industry moving. >> Dave: And maybe be around as an independent company. Was that a factor as well? I mean, you see Thoma Bravo buying up all his hiring companies and right, so, and maybe they're trying to create something that could be competitive, but you're saying Trend Micros there, so. >> Well I think as Anne mentioned, the 30 year heritage, I think, of Trend Micro really driving this and I've done work with them in various past things. There's also a big part of just the people you like, the people that are good to work with, that are really trying to be customer obsessed, going back right, at an AWS event, the ones that get the cloud tend to be able to follow those Amazon LPs as well, right, just kind of naturally, and so I think when you look at the Trend Micros of the world, that's where that kind of cloud native piece comes out and I like working with that. >> In this environment, the macro environment, lets talk a bit, earning season, it's really mixed. I mean you're seeing some really good earnings, some mixed earnings, some good earnings with cautious guidance. So nobody really (indistinct), and it was for a period time there was a thinking that security was non-discretionary and it's clearly non-discretionary, but the CISO, she or he, doesn't have unlimited budgets, right? So what are you seeing in terms of how are customers dealing with this challenging macro environment? Is it through tools consolidation? Is that a play that's going on? What are you seeing in the customer base? >> Anne: I see ways, and we're working through this right now where we're actually weaving cybersecurity in at the very beginning of how we're designing offers across our entire offer portfolio, not just the cybersecurity business. So taking that approach in the long run will help contain costs and our hope, and we're already seeing it, is it's actually helping change the perception that security's that cost center and that final obstacle you have to get over and it's going to throw your margins off and all that sort of stuff. >> Dave: I like that, its at least is like a security cover charge. You're not getting in unless we do the security thing. >> Exactly, a security cover charge, that's what you should call it. >> Yeah. >> Like it. >> Another piece though, you mentioned earlier about making CISO's life easier, right? And I think, as Anne did a really absolutely true about building it in, not to the security stack but application developers, they want visibility they want observability, they want to do it right. They want CI/CD pipeline that can give them confidence in their security. So should the CISO have a budget issue, right? And they can't necessarily afford, but the application team as they're looking at what products they want to purchase, can I get a SaaS or a DaaS, right? The static or dynamic application security testing in my product up front and if the app team buys into that methodology, the CISO convinces them, yes, this is important. Now I've got two budgets to pull from, and in the end I end up with a cheaper, a lower cost of a service. So I think that's another way that we see with like DevSecOps and a few other services, that building in on day one that you mentioned. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> Getting both teams involved. >> Dave: That's interesting, Mike, because that's the alignment that you were talking about earlier in the KPIs and you're not a tech vendor saying, buy my product, you guys have deep consultancy backgrounds. >> Anne: And the customer appreciates that. >> Yeah. >> Anne: They see us as looking out for their best interest when we're trying to support them and help them and bringing it to the table at the very beginning as something that is there and we're conscientious of, just helps them in the long run and I think, they're seeing that, they appreciate that. >> Dave: Yeah, you can bring best practice around measurements, alignment, business process, stuff like that. Maybe even some industry expertise which you're not typically going to get from a product company. >> Well, one thing you just mentioned that I love talking about with Capgemini is the industry expertise, right? So when you look at systems integrators, there are a lot of really, really good ones. To say otherwise would be foolish. But Capgemini with our acquisition of Altran, a couple years ago, I think think it was, right? How many other GSIs or SIs are actually building silicon for IoT chips? So IoT's huge right now, the intelligent industry moving forward is going to drive a lot of those business outcomes that people are looking for. Who else can say we've built an autonomous vehicle, Capgemini can. Who can say that we've built the IoT devices from the ground up? We know not just how to integrate them into AWS, into the IoT services in the cloud, but to build and have that secure development for the firmware and all and that's where I think our customers really look to us as being those industry experts and being able to bring that totality of our business to bear for what they need to do to achieve their objectives to deliver to their customer. >> Dave: That's interesting. I mean, using silicon as a differentiator to drive a lot of business outcomes and security. >> Mike: Absolutely. >> I mean you see what Amazon's doing in silicon, Look at Apple. Look at what Tesla's doing with silicon. >> Dave: That's where you're seeing a lot of people start focusing 'cause not everybody can do it. >> Yeah. >> It's hard. >> Right. >> It's hard. >> And you'll see some interesting announcements from us and some interesting information and trends that we'll be driving because of where we're placed and what we have going around security and intelligent industry overall. We have a lot of investment going on there right now and again, from the partner perspective, it's an ecosystem of key partners that collectively work together to kind of create a seamless security posture for an intelligent industry initiative with these companies that we're working with. >> So last question, probably toughest question, and that's to give us a 30 second like elevator pitch or a billboard and I'm going to ask you, Anne, specifically about the SOC Essentials program powered by Trend Micro. Why should organizations look to that? >> Organizations should move to it or work with us on it because we have the expertise, we have the width and breadth to help them fill the gaps, be those eyes, be that team, the police behind it all, so to speak, and be the team behind them to make sure we're giving them the right information they need to actually act effectively on maintaining their security posture. >> Nice and then last question for you, Mike is that billboard, why should organizations in any industry work with Capgemini to help become an intelligent industrial player. >> Mike: Sure, so if you look at our board up top, right, we've got our tagline that says, "get the future you want." And that's what you're going to get with Capgemini. It's not just about selling a service, it's not just about what partners' right in reselling. We don't want that to be why you come to us. You, as a company have a vision and we will help you achieve that vision in a way that nobody else can because of our depth, because of the breadth that we have that's very hard to replicate. >> Awesome guys, that was great answers. Mike, Anne, thank you for spending some time with Dave and me on the program today talking about what's new with Capgemini. We'll be following this space. >> All right, thank you very much. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (gentle light music)

(bright music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone, theCUBE coverage here at AWS re:Mars 2022. I'm John, your host of the theCUBE. re:Mars, part of the three re big events, re:Invent is the big one, re:Inforce the security, re:MARS is the confluence of industrial space, of automation, robotics and machine learning. Got a great guest here, Muhammad Faisal senior consultant solutions architect at Capgemini. Welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you. >> So we, you just we're hearing the classes we had with the professor from Okta ML from Washington. So he's in the weeds on machine learning. He's down getting dirty with all the hardcore, uncoupling it from hardware. Machine learning has gone really super nova in the past couple years. And this show points to the tipping point where machine learning's driving space, it's driving robotics industrial edge at unprecedented rates. So it's kind of moving from the old I don't want to say old, couple years ago and the legacy AI, I mean, old school AI is kind of the same new school with a twist it's just modernized and has faster, cheaper, smaller chips. >> Yeah. I mean, but there is a change also in the way it's working. So you had the classical AI, where you are detecting something and then you're making an action. You are perceiving something, making an action, you're detecting something, and you're assuming something that has been perceived. But now we are moving towards more deeper learning, deep. So AI, where you have to train your model to do things or to detect things and hope that it will work. And there's like, of course, a lot of research going on into explainable AI to help facilitate that. But that's where the challenges come into play. >> Well, Muhammad , first let's take, what do you do over there? Talk about your role specifically. You're doing a lot of student architecting around AI machine learning. What's your role? What's your focus. >> Yeah. So we basically are working in automotive to help OEMs and tier-one suppliers validate ADAS functions that they're working on. So advanced driving assistance systems, there are many levels that are, are when we talk about it. So it can be something simple, like, you know, a blind spot detection, just a warning function. And it goes all the way. So SAE so- >> So there's like the easy stuff and then the hard stuff. >> Muhammad : Exactly. >> Yeah. >> That's what you're getting at. >> Yeah. Yeah. And, and the easy stuff you can test validate quite easily because if you get it wrong. >> Yeah. >> The impact is not that high. The complicated stuff, if you have it wrong, then that can be very dangerous. (John laughs) >> Well, I got to say the automotive one was one was that are so fascinating because it's been so archaic and just in the past recent years, and Tesla's the poster child for this. You see that you go, oh my God, I love that car. I want to have a software driven car. And it's amazing. And I don't get a Tesla on now because that's, it's more like I should have gotten it earlier. Now I'm going to just hold my ground. >> Everyone has- >> Everyone's got it in Palo Alto. I'm not going to get another car, no way. So, but you're starting to see a lot of the other manufacturers, just in the past five years, they're leveling up. It may not be as cool and sexy as the Tesla, but it's, they're there. And so what are they dealing with when they talk about data and AI? What's the, what's some of the challenges that you're seeing that they're grappling with in terms of getting things integrated, developing pipelines, R and D, they wrangling data. Take us through some of the things. >> Muhammad: I mean, like when I think about the challenges that autonomous or the automakers are facing, I can think of three big ones. So first, is the amount of data they need to do their training. And more importantly, the validation. So we are talking about petabytes or hundred of petabytes of data that has to be analyzed, validated, annotated. So labeling to create gen, ground truth processed, reprocessed many times with every creation of a new software. So that is a lot of data, a lot of computational power. And you need to ensure that all of the processing, all of handling of the data allows you complete transparency of what is happening to the data, as well as complete traceability. So your, for home allocations, so approval process for these functions so that they can be released in cars that can be used on public roads. You need to have traceability. Like you can, you are supposed to be able to reproduce the data to validate your work that was done. So you can, >> John: Yeah >> Like, prove that your function is successful or working as expected. So this, the big data is the first challenge. I see that all the automotive makers are tackling. The second big one I see is understanding how much testing is enough. So with AI or with classical approach, you have certain requirements, how a function is supposed to work. You can test that with some test cases based on your architecture, and you have a successful or failed result. With deep learning, it gets more complicated. >> John: What are they doing with deep learning? Give an example of some of things. >> I mean, so you are, you need to then start thinking about statistics that I will test enough data with like a failure rate of potentially like 0.0, 0.1%. How much data do I need to test to make sure that I am achieving that rate. So then we are talking about, in terms of statistics, which requires a lot of data, because the failure rate that we want to have is so low. And it's not only like, failure in terms of that something is always detected, and if it's there, but it's also having like, a low false positive rate. So you are only detecting objects which are there and not like, phantom objects. >> What's some of the trends you're seeing across the client base, in terms of the patterns that they're all kind of, what, where's the state of their mindset and position with AI and some of the work they're doing, are they feeling, you feel like they're all crossed over across the chasm so to speak, in terms of executing, are they still in experimental mode in driving with the full capabilities is conservative or is it progressive? >> Muhammad: I mean, it's a mixture of both. So I'm in German automotive where I'm from, there is for functions, which are more complicated ones. There's definitely hesitancy to release them too early in the car, unless we are sure that they are safe. But of course, for functions which are assisting the drivers everyday usage they are widely available. Like one of the things like, so when we talk about this complex function. >> John: Highly available or available? >> Muhammad: I would say highly available. >> Higher? Is that higher availability and highly available. >> Okay. Yeah. (both laughing) >> Yeah, so. >> I know there's a distinction. >> Yeah. I mean >> I bring up as a joke cuz of the Jedi contract. (Muhammad laughs) >> I mean, in like, our architecture. So when we are developing our solution, high availability is one of our requirements. It is highly available, but the ADAS functions are now available in more and more cars. >> John: Well, latency, man. I mean, it's kind of a joke of storage, but it's a storage joke, but you know, it's latency, you got it, okay. (Muhammad laughs) But these are decisions that have to be made. >> Muhammad: They... >> I mean. >> Muhammad: I mean, they are still being made. >> So I mean, we are... >> John: Good. >> We haven't reached like, level five, which is the highest level of autonomous driving yet on public roads. >> John: That's hard. That's hard to do. >> Yeah. And I mean, the biggest difference, like, as you go above these levels is in terms of availability. So are they these functions? >> John: Yeah. >> Can they handle all possible scenarios or are they only available in certain scenarios? And of course the responsibility. So, it's, in the end, so with Tesla, you would be like, if you had a one you would be the person who is in control or responsible to monitor it. >> John: Yeah. But as we go >> John: Actually the reason I don't have a Tesla all my family would want one. I don't want to get anyone a Tesla. >> But I mean, but that's the sort the liabilities is currently on you, if like, you're not monitoring. >> Allright, so, talk about AWS, the relationship that Capgemini has with AWS, obviously, the partnerships there, you're here and this show is really a commitment to, this is a future to me, this is the future. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> This is it. All right here, industrial, innovation's going to come massive. Back-office cloud, done deal. Data centers, hybrid somewhat multi-cloud, I guess. But hybrid is a steady state in the back-office cloud, game over. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> Amazon, Azure, Google, Alibaba done. So super clouds underneath. Great. This is a digital transformation in the industrial area. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> This is the big thing. What's your relationship with AWS >> Muhammad: So, as I mentioned, the first challenge, data, like, we have so much data, so much computational power and it's not something that is always needed. You need it like on demand. And this is where like a hyperscale or cloud provider, like AWS, can be the key to achieve, like, the higher, the acceleration that we are providing to our customers using our technology built on top of AWS services. We did a breakout session, this during re:MARS, where we demonstrated a couple of small tools that we have developed out of our offering. One of them was ability to stream data from the vehicle that is collecting data worldwide. So during the day when we did it from Vegas, driving on the strip, as well as from Germany, and while we are while this data is uploaded, it's at the same time real time anonymized to make sure it you're privacy aligned with the, the data privacy >> Of course. Yeah. That's hard to do right there. >> Yeah. And so the faces are blurred. The licenses are blurred. We also, then at the same time can run object detection. So we have real time monitoring of what our feed is doing worldwide. And... >> John: Do you, just curious, do you do that blurring? Is that part of a managed service, you call an API or is that built into the go? >> Muhammad: So from like part of our DSV, we have many different service offerings, so data production, data test strategy orchestration. So part of data production is worldwide data collection. And we can then also offer data management services, which include then anonymization data, quality check. >> John: And that's service you provide. >> Yeah. >> To the customer. Okay. Got it. Okay. >> So of course, like, in collaboration with the customer, so our like, platform is very modular. Microservices based the idea being if the customer already has a good ML model for anonymization, we can plug it into our platform, running on AWS. If they want to use it, we can develop one or we can use one of our existing ones or something off the shelf or like any other supplier can provide one as well. And we all integrate. >> So you are, you're tight with Amazon web services in terms of your cloud, your service. It's a cloud. >> Yeah. >> It's so Capgemini Super Cloud, basically. >> Exactly. >> Okay. So this we call we call it Super Cloud, we made that a thing and re:Invent Charles Fitzgerald would disagree but we will debate him. It's a Super Cloud, but okay. You got your Super Cloud. What's the coolest thing that you think you're doing right now that people should pay attention to. >> I mean, the cool thing that we are currently working on, so from the keynote today, we talked about also synthetic data for validation. >> John: Now That was phenomenal. So that was phenomenal. >> We are working on digital twin creation. So we are capturing data in real world creating a virtual identity of it. And that allows you the freedom to create multiple scenarios out of it. So that's also something where we are using machine learning to determine what are the parameters you need to change between, or so, you have one scenario, such as like, the cut-in scenario and you can change. >> John: So what scenario? >> A cut-in scenario. So someone is cutting in front of you or overtake scenario. And so, I mean, in real world, someone will do it in probably a nicer way, but of course, in, it is possible, at some point. >> Cognition to the cars. >> Yeah. >> It comes up as a vehicle. >> I mean, at some point some might, someone would be very aggressive with it. We might not record it. >> You might be able to predict too. I mean, the predictions, you could say this guy's weaving, he's a potential candidate. >> It it is possible. Yes. But I mean, but to, >> That's a future scenario. >> Ensure that we are testing these scenarios, we can translate a real world scenario into a digital world, change the parameters. So the distance between those two is different and use ML. So machine learning to change these parameters. So this is exciting. And the other thing we are... >> That is pretty cool. I will admit that's very cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. The other thing we like are trying to do is reduce the cost for the customer in the end. So we are collecting petabytes of data. Every time they make updates to the software, they have to re-simulate it or replay this data, so that they can- >> Petabytes? >> Petabytes of data. And, and physically sometimes on a physical hardware in loop device. And then this >> That's called a really heavy edge. You got to move, you don't want to be moving that around the Amazon cloud. >> Yeah. That that's, that's the challenge. And once we have replayed this or re-simulated it. we still have to calculate the KPIs out of it. And what we are trying to do is optimize this test orchestration, so that we are minimizing the REAP simulation. So you don't want the data to be going to the edge, >> Yeah. >> Unnecessarily. And once we get this data back to optimize the way we are doing the calculation, so you're not calculating- >> There's a huge data, integrity management. >> Muhammad: Yeah. >> New kind of thing going on here, it's kind of is it new or is it? >> Muhammad: I mean, it's- >> Sounds new to me. >> The scale is new, so- >> Okay, got it. >> The management of the data, having the whole traceability, that has been in automotive. So also Capgemini involved in aerospace. So in aerospace. >> Yeah. >> Having this kind of high, this validation be very strictly monitored is norm, but now we have to think about how to do it on this large scale. And that's why, like, I think that's the biggest challenge and hopefully what we are trying to, yeah, solve with our DSV offering. >> All right, Muhammad, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I really appreciate it. Great way to close out re:MARS, our last interview our the show. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. >> I mean like just one last comment, like, so I think in automotive, like, so part of the automation the future is quite exciting, and I think that's where like- >> John: Yeah. >> It's, we have to be hopeful that like- >> John: Well, the show is all about hope. I mean, you had, you had space, moon habitat, you had climate change, potential solutions. You have new functionality that we've been waiting for. And, you know, I've watch every episode of Star Trek and SkyNet and kind of SkyNet going on air. >> The robots. >> Robots running cubes, robot cubes host someday. >> Yeah. >> You never know. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. >> Thank you. Okay. That's theCUBE here. Wrapping up re:MARS. I'm John Furrier You're watching theCUBE, stay with us for the next event. Next time. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's continuous coverage of "AWS re:Invent 2021". I'm Dave Nicholson, and here at theCUBE, we're running one of the most important largest events in tech industry history with two live sets right here, live in Las Vegas, along with our two studios. And I'm delighted here in our studio to welcome Scott Warren US AWS practice, vice president for Capgemini. Welcome. >> Thank you. >> Dave: How's the show been going for you so far? >> Very, very good so far. It's great to be back in person. >> So tell me about your role at Capgemini. What you focus on. You're responsible for the relationship with AWS? >> Absolutely. So managing the relationship with AWS and how we partner, and then probably more importantly, kind of how we go to market with the AWS offering for our customers. So kind of understanding what the customer demand is, how we can help accelerate and get them moving faster out to the cloud, and then building that up as well as kind of industry specific offers on how we can accelerate cloud adoption. >> So when you talk about acceleration often in an organization like yours, there is the tug of war between the spoke solution hearing and pre-packaged things that serve to be accelerators. How do you go about balancing those things and tell us about some of the accelerators that you've developed? >> Absolutely. I think it's always kind of going to be a hybrid between the bespoken out of the box solutions. The out of the box solutions are inevitably always going to take some sort of customization or something like that to make them applicable within a customer's environment. But we all know it's very time consuming and expensive to build something completely bespoke from the ground up. So the way we really address that is we've built something at Capgemini we called it the cloud boost library. It is an online get lab library of thousands of code templates, infrastructure as code snippets that solve deploying your infrastructure and provision your infrastructure on the cloud, microservice design for healthcare and financial services and manufacturing and automotive. >> So industry specific? >> Not just specific and cloud in general. And so we bring that to every cloud engagement we work on. It's our real motto around that is we should never be starting on zero, starting from ground zero and anything we push out to AWS and we can always borrow, steal, modify, and change part of that library specific to that customer demand and need, and really speed up the implementation and get them out to AWS faster. >> Can you kind of double click on that? Give us an example of an accelerator inaction. You don't have to necessarily, if you've got a customer name, fantastic, or you can keep it generic. >> Yeah, absolutely. So we work for a big financial services company that's doing kind of an online data dissemination system, so thousands of public API is to disseminate data out to their customers and partners and vendors and things like that. So we were able to use that library to kind of get the framework for every single one of those APIs. A template, a kind of base function for that, and then use that kind of repeatably across those thousands of API. So we never really started from zero and said, provided 70, 80% kind of efficiency gain on that project versus kind of building it from the ground up. >> So with a customer like that, how did the initial engagement start? Was this a preexisting Capgemini relationship? Was this AWS at the table strategizing bringing in Capgemini. How does that work with your relationships with customers? >> So this was an existing customer of ours that we'd been doing application management in their data center for years. And several years ago, they had a kind of a leadership change happened and a new CTO came in and he laid down the edict that they're now a cloud first organization. So of course all his direct reports and managers started asking, what does that really mean? And they came to us as a trusted partner. And so we started walking them through our framework and template of how we bring our customers from ground zero completely in the data center, completely to a cloud first organization. And at that same time, we also began engaging our counterparts at AWS because we want to make sure we're in lockstep with what they're doing at AWS and kind of one consistent message out to our customer and doing the things the way they want them to be done. We want to unlock the funding programs available from AWS to incentivize that customer, to move out to the cloud. And then really having that kind of three legged partnership with us, the customer and AWS, puts them on the right path for success and in faster adoption of the cloud. >> Capgemini didn't just roll out of college a couple of years ago. (laughs) >> Been around a while. Been around a while. >> So you have an interesting perspective because you just mentioned being involved in the management of a customer's environment and IT landscape that is outside the purview of cloud, at least at some stage of the game. How do you turn being a legacy provider of services into a superpower instead of a liability? >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> How do you do that? And the reason why I say that superpower is because you said cap earlier and I thought in America, but it's a serious question. Some would say, well, Capgemini legacy. No, no, no. What's your reply? >> Absolutely. So what we found is the most important thing about a move to the cloud is understanding the entire application portfolio and landscape and the best way to move into the cloud. Some applications that are very prime for lift and shift. We just want to get them out of the data center, into the cloud very quickly. Other ones that are very mission critical on customer facing very important for the future of an organization. Really need to be looked at with a more modern lens in the clouds. How do we modernize this, make it cost effective, and in a long-term asset, that's going to run in the cloud in a PaaS or SaaS based service offering rather than just IaaS. So all of the legacy work under the previous work we've done for our customers, we understand their application and in data center landscape better, they do in most scenarios. So having all of that data allows us to feed that into kind of some of our tooling around assessing applications and figuring out the best migration path or modernization path. So all of that legacy knowledge kind of puts us in the driver's seat for being the best partner to actually help them with that cloud modernization. >> So with your AWS responsibility as part of Capgemini, it's a bit like having a foot on the dock and a foot on the boat? >> Scott: Yep. >> In terms of an individual customer's requirements, obviously Capgemini can continue to manage what we would refer to as legacy infrastructure while helping to modernize and migrate to cloud. What about this sort of combination of the two that represents the future specifically, AWS is support of hybrid cloud technology. The idea of Outposts, is that something that you are involved with? >> Absolutely. We're seeing kind of Outpost adoption trend up recently, actually. So when we see in certain sectors where a lot of kind of work is being done on the edge, a great example is an agriculture company we work for that has field in soil and weather sensors all over the planet. So monitoring the moisture in the soil, the nitrogen levels, the wind air pressure and temperature and humidity. And oftentimes those fields are in very remote disconnected locations. So we're seeing things like Outpost and snowball edge and different services like that become more and more prevalent for those edge use cases where compute can actually be done on the field and decisions can be made by the farmers that are planters in the field like real time. And then when connectivity comes back around, they can actually beam that back to AWS if necessary. The other kind of scenario we see Outposts really being prevalent is in very sensitive data scenarios. So we have customers in federal government work or things like that. There's just some data due to regulatory compliance that cannot be on the public cloud node yet, yet being the key word there. So Outposts becomes really important in those scenarios where the vast majority of the data and the assets go out to AWS, but the very, very sensitive data due to regulatory reasons, we keep in the Outpost can still kind of harness the power of AWS on that. >> You know, that brings up another interesting subject, the difference between where technology actually exists today and where people exist culturally today in terms of their acceptance and adoption of technology. There are absolutely cases where data residency, data governance requires that it be onsite. >> Scott: Absolutely. >> Then again, there are a lot of cases where people are just concerned about not having their arms around the data. So the perception that it isn't as safe in the cloud, as it is in the customer's data center is often a misguided, >> Scott: Very much so. >> Perception. So that's obviously an inhibiting factor to cloud adoption in some way. What are some of the other things that you see that are headwinds? Because it's been talked about widely here 80% or more of IT spend is still what we would think of as on-premises. >> Scott: Data center. Yeah. >> Not cloud. Those lines are being blurred with things like Outpost. I contend that in five years, when we talk about cloud, that's going to be sort of an irrelevant term. >> Yeah. >> It's really like, well, because it doesn't matter where it is. It's all virtualized. >> Compute and storage somewhere. Yeah. >> The headwinds that you're seeing. And again, they can be irrational headwinds or they can be technical bottlenecks. >> Yeah. I think the biggest one is business understanding what the cloud is and them adopting it. I've had a couple meetings that were a new thing for me this week, where I met with the chief marketing officer for one of our customers. So we're meeting with CTO, CIO, VPs, directors in the IT space, but this marketing officer wanted to meet with us. And she was kind of very cloud knowledgeable. She understood IaaS, SaaS, PaaS and the costing models of cloud consumption and some of the services. In her organization is kind of already all in on AWS. And she had seen this happen, this transformation happened on the IT side. And she wanted to know how can I, as the head of my marketing department start to harness the power of the public cloud to drive business outcomes within my area. And that was a really interesting conversation for me and kind of got me thinking that I think the business is going to start understanding, and that the lines between IT and business are going to begin to get blurred a little bit with the power of AWS and other hyperscalers and all the capability that's available to our customers once they get moved out there. >> In today's keynote, Swami talked a lot about data and the data-driven companies, or rather companies that are not data-driven. >> Yep. >> Are going to be left behind. And I thought it was interesting in the survey. He mentioned 9% of companies reported not looking at data at all for their decision-making process. We need a list of those companies so we can short their stocks. (laughs) And we can help them out. (laughs) Or you can help out, or you can help them out. Exactly. I'll refer a half to you, and I'll short the rest. How's that feel? Is that a deal? So within your world of things you do with AWS, with Capgemini on behalf of the customers, what are some of the tip of the spear things that are the most exciting from a buzz perspective and what are sort of the next gen things that you're thinking of? It could be something you literally just heard about announced over the last couple of days. What does the future hold? >> Absolutely. We kind of look at that is what we classify our intelligent industry offering. And so it's really industry specific offers and services that are going to kind of change how specific industries do business. A really good example is we do a lot with the automotive industry. We started working with the OEMs that are kind of producing electric vehicles and autonomous driving vehicles. And we've actually built a framework that lives on top of AWS called connected mobility solutions. So connecting all of the driverless functions of a car back to the mothership or the cloud, the cloud instance. And I think things like that are really kind of tip of the spear where it's, again, out on the edge, not in a data center or in a cloud, but gathering all that data from connected devices in different areas and kind of how we're going to manage that and enable that and make it secure and safe and reliable and things like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. I have direct experience with some of that. I have a car that won't allow me to access all of its self-driving features. I bet I can guess because of the way I drive. (laughs) Yep. The cloud is not all wonderful. It's not all lollipops and rainbows. There is a bit of a downside to it if you're a crazy maniac like myself. So Capgemini, hasn't just been a standalone organization. You've absorbed and merged with all sorts of different organizations. I imagine you have organizations that are specifically focused on AWS in addition to other clouds. >> Scott: Absolutely. I can manage that culturally. >> That's a good question. So three years ago, me as the Capgemini group as a whole entered into a three-year partnership called Project Liberty with AWS. And it was a three-year plan we had targets and numbers on both sides, but it really kind of unified how we were going to do AWS and cloud work across the Capgemini organization, all working under one program towards one common goal, on developing accelerators and solutions and go to market offerings, kind of with one thing in mind to drive that AWS partnership and growth. So that's really been kind of the big driver for us within Capgemini over the past three years, is that what we call Project Liberty internally. And then just recently about a year and a half, maybe two years ago, we acquired one of the world's leading digital engineering firms called Altron. Big presence in Europe, Southeast Asia and North America. And they brought kind of a whole new flavor of how we do cloud when we're talking about digital twin in the cloud, on the factory floor and actually engineering of products and in driverless vehicles and electric vehicles and things like that. So bringing all training and being able to include them in our overall kind of cloud AWS message and bringing their book of offers in has really expanded our offering as well. >> How has talent recruitment and acquisition been for you guys? Are you faced with the same challenges that others are? Which is we need educated people. Give the pitch, so my kids hear it. So they understand. The graduate was plastics, right? That's the future? >> Yeah. >> Cloud services, without Capgemini, all the technology that AWS produces is essentially worthless. If you can't connect it to business value and outcome, and that's what you do. So how has that looked for you? >> Yeah, we hae the same talent challenges as everyone right now. So we're really taking the thought process of let's take people who aren't traditionally in the technology field and begin training them up on the cloud and the different technology areas. >> You do that at Capgemini? >> We do that at Capgemini, yeah. So we're running in conjunction with AWS big boot camps where we bring people in and- >> Who are this people? Not to interrupt, just a few seconds left. What's the profile of somewhere? >> Yeah. So a lot of- >> I want to hear the unconventional ones, not the computer science person who doesn't know cloud. Who are you bringing in on this one? >> New college hires who majored in the non-related IT field completely psychology, social sciences, whatever it may be. But who had the aptitude and then kind of the one to learn cloud in IT. So we bring them in. And then looking in our Capgemini Organization internally at our recruiting organization, our marketing organization, our partnership organization, and some of those people who are early on in their careers and may want to pivot to the technology side. We're starting to ramp them up as well. So it's been a very effective program for us. And I think something we're going to continue to invest in further. >> That's a very satisfying part of what you do to be a part of. >> Absolutely. >> Well, Scott, I got to tell you it's been a great conversation. For the rest of us here at theCUBE our continuous coverage continues here at AWS re:Invent 2021. I'm Dave Nicholson signing off for a moment. But keep it right here theCUBE is your technology hybrid event leader. (upbeat music)

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. To the cubes coverage of ADB has re-invent 2021. I'm John fare with Dave Nicholson. My cohost we're here exploring all the future innovations. We've got a great guest we'll lead negam who's the EVP executive vice president chief research innovation officer cap, Gemini engineering will lead. Thanks for coming on the cube. Thank you. So I love the title, chief research, innovation engineering officer. >>I didn't make it up. They did. >>You got to love the cloud evolution right now because just more and more infrastructure as codes happening. You got this whole data abstraction layer developing where people are starting to see. Okay. I can have horizontally scalable governed data in a data lake. That's smart, someone intelligent and use machine learning. It seems to be the big trend here from AWS. More serverless, more goodness. So engineering kind of on the front lines here kind of making it happen. >>Yeah. So, uh, the question that our clients are asking us is how do these data center technologies moving over into cars, planes, trains, construction, equipment, industrial, right? And you know, maybe two decades ago it was called IOT. Uh, but we're not talking about just sensors, vertical lift aircraft, uh, software-defined cars, um, manufacturing facilities as a whole, you know, how are these data center technologies going to impact these companies? And it's not a architectural shift for say the Evie, the electric vehicle, many OEM, it's a financial transformation, right? Because if they can make their vehicle containerized, uh, if they can monitor the cars, behaviors, they can offer new types of experiences for their clients. So the questions we were asking ourselves is how do you get the cloud into the car? >>Yeah. And software driving, all that. So you've got software defined everything. Now you've got data-driven pun intended with the cars cloud everywhere. How does that look? What are the concerns, obviously, latency moving data around. They got outposts. Am I moving the cloud to the edge? How are you guys thinking? How are customers thinking through the architectural, I guess foundational playbook? Is there one? Yeah. >>I, you know, coming into this, I did ask my, my son, the question is hardware or software more important. And then he, you know, he's not, and he said, you know, we're coding our way out of hardware. It was very interesting insight software rules. That that is for sure. But when we're talking about physical products and these talking about trillions of dollars of investments going into green energy, uh, into autonomous driving into green aviation. So we're not, it's not just the matter of verse here. We're dealing real physical products. I think though the point for us as engineers or as an engineering businesses, how do you co-design hardware and software together? What are the questions you to ask about that machine learning model being moved over from AWS? For example, into the car, is the Silicon going to be able to support the inferencing rates that are required right. In real time and whatnot. So some of the things like that, >>Well, that's been a, it's been an age old battle between the idea that, uh, the flour that's nurtured in a walled garden is always going to be more beautiful than the one that grows out in the meadow. In other words, announcement, uh, at, in Adam's keynote, talking about advances in AWS Silicon. So what's your view on how important that is? You just sort of alluded to it as being important, the co-development of hardware and software together. >>Yeah. We're seeing product makers again, think, you know, anybody from a life sciences company building a digital therapeutics product, maybe a blood glucose monitor or, um, an automotive or even an aerospace, uh, going direct to Silicon asking questions around the performance of the Silicon and designing their experience around that. Right. So, uh, if they need a low latency, low power efficiency, green networks, they're taking those questions in-house or asking those questions in house. So, you know, AWS having a, sort of a portfolio of custom or bespoke Silicon now as part of the architectural discussion. Right? And so I look around here, I see a lot of developers who are going to have to get a little bit more versed in some of these questions around, you know, should I use an arm based chip? You know, do I use this Silicon partner? You know, what happens when I move it into the vehicle? And then I have over the air updates, how do I protect that code in an enclave in the car just to continue to use the so there's are a lot of architectural questions that I don't think software engineers typically ask when they're just dealing in the cloud. Uh, although at the end of the day over time, a lot of these will be abstracted from the developer to some degree, you know, that is just the nature of the game. >>It reminds me of the operating system theory of system software meeting hardware. And because you have software developers just want to code now, you're saying, well, now I'm responsible hardware. Well, not if it's programmer, was there a hard top two it's over, these are big questions and important ones I think is we're in a major inflection point, but it comes back down to, you mentioned aerospace space is the same problem. You can't send that break, fix engineer in space. Right. You've got software now. So you've got trust that security supply chain who's right. And who's doing the hardware now you've got the software supply chain. So a lot of interesting kind of, yeah. >>So you, you, you know, you check them off, back in into it, the supply chain problems with Silicon, and there are now alternatives to try and get around the bottlenecks using high-performance computers versus hundreds of ECS and a vehicle allows you kind of get away from the supply chain shortage. Uh there's you know, folks moving from one architecture to another, to avoid kind of getting locked in and then of course creating your own Silicon, or at least having more ownership over the Silicon. I think suffer defined systems, uh, are the way to go regardless of the industry. Uh, so you're going to make some decisions on performance, characteristics of the hardware, but ultimately you want a software defined system, so you can update it regularly. >>I was talking with doc some of the top hair executives. I talked to, um, the marketplace guys here, Deepak, uh, over at the, here at Amazon and containers comes up. You start to see a trend in containers where you see certified containers because containers are everywhere. You can put malware and containers. So, you know, think about like just hacking software. It's a surface area now. So you bring the software security model in there. So to see this kind of like certified containers, I can imagine certified infrastructure now because I mean, what's a processor, it's just a hardened top to a PC. Now you've got the cloud. If I have hardware, how do I know it's workable? How do I trust it? You know, how could it not be hacked? I don't want my car to be hacked and driven off the road. >>So, so, um, when you're dealing with a payment system or you're dealing with tick-tock different than when you're dealing with a car with life consequences. So we are very active in the software defined transformation of automotive. And it's easy to say, I'm just going to load it up with all this data center technology, but there's safety criticality issues that you have to take into considerations, but containers are well suited for that. Just requires some thought. I mean, my excitement, enthusiasm about this product engineering is if you just take any of these products and, and apply them into a product engineering context, there's so much invention and creativity can happen. Uh, but on the safety side, we're working through security enclaves using containers and hardware based roots of trust. So there's ways around, you know, malware and bad actors at the edge. Um, >>What's your, what's your take on explainable AI? Why got you might as well ask because this comes up a lot, explainable AI is hot in college right now, AI, that can be explained. It's kind of got some policy, uh, to it. What's your thoughts on this AI trend? Cause obviously it's everywhere. Um, I mean, what is explainable AI? Is that even real or how do you explain AI? Is that democratized? >>Yeah. Computer vision is a great example. I think to bring it to life I'm all of the audience probably knows this, but you could, you know, you can tell your kid that this is a cat once and they'll know every single cat out there is a cat, but if you, you, you need a thousands of images, uh, for a computer vision model to learn that this is a cat. And even, you know, you can probably give it an example, um, out of say a remote region of the world and it going to get confused. So to me, explainability is about adding some sort of certainty to the decision-making process. Um, and when there's a, some confusion, be able to understand why that happened. I think in, in automotive or any, even in quality assurance, being able to know that this product was definitively defective or this pedestrian definitively did cross the crosswalk or not. You know, it's very important because it could, you know, there are, there are consequences. So just being able to understand why the algorithm or the model said what it said, why did it make that judgment is super important, super important. >>So I've got to ask you now that we're here, re-invent from your engineering perspectives, you look at the landscape of AWS, the announcements. What, what, how do you think about it to other engineers out there trying to, uh, grok all the technology who really want to put innovation in place, whether it's creating new markets, new categories or innovating their existing business, how do you grab the class out and make it work for you? I mean, from an engineering standpoint, how do you look at AWS and say, how do I make this work better for me? >>Uh, so I mean, over the years, I, um, I think it's true. AWS has started to really look like a utility, you know, the days where it was called utility as a service. And, um, you know, I, I, I did attend a workshop on, I think it was called LightSail or something like that, but they are simplifying the way that you can consume this infrastructure to a degree that is somewhat phenomenal. Uh, and they're building any, yeah, they continue to expand the ecosystem. Um, so I mean, for me, it's, it's a utility. Uh, it's it's, it's, it's, it's, it's consumable. Uh, if you got an idea pick and roll your own. >>Okay. So back back to the, uh, the concept of AI and explainability, uh, one of my cars won't allow me to unlock certain functions because of the way that I drive. No one needs to explain to me why, because I know what I'm doing wrong, but I'm still frustrated by it. So that that's sort of leads to kind of the larger philosophical question to you about what you're seeing, where are we in this kind of leapfrog, constant pace of the technology exists, but people aren't culturally ready to accept it because it feels like right now to me that there isn't anything we can't do with cloud technology from a technical perspective, it can all be done. Swami's keynote today, talking about integrating all sorts of sources of data and actually leveraging them in the cloud. Um, technically possible yet 85% of it spend is still on prem. So, so what's your thought there? What are the, what are the inhibitors, what are the real inhibitors from a technology perspective versus the cultural ones? Uh, setting aside my lack of, uh, adherence to, uh, to driving lawful >>I industry by industry. I think in, um, you know, if you're trying to do a diagnostic on an MRI in an automated way, and there's going to be false positives, false negatives, and yes, we know that yeah, we know that there's going to be a physician participating in the final judgment call. Um, I think just getting a really good comfort level on the trustworthiness of these decision points, um, is really important. And so I don't blame folks for being reticent about, you know, trusting or, or asking some questions about, does this really work and are these autonomous systems as they become more and more precise, are they doing the right thing? Uh, I think there's research that has to be done on agency. You know, am I in patrol? What happened? Did I lose control? I think there's questions around handoffs, you know, and participation in decision-making. So I think just overall, just the broad area of trust and, uh, the relationship between the participants, the humans and the machines still. I think there's some work to do, to be honest with you. I think there's some work to do maybe in a manufacturing facility where everything's automated, you know, maybe it's a solved problem, but in an open road, when the vehicles driving, you know, in the middle afternoon, you know, you probably should ask some more questions. >>Well, I want to ask you what we got a couple of minutes left, real time data near real time, real time, always a big, hot topic. Seeing one more databases out there in the keynote today from Swami real-time are we there yet? How are we dealing with real-time data, software consuming the data? It comes to cars and things that are moving real time versus near real time. It could be life or death. I mean, this is big time. Where are we? >>So, um, I was trying to conduct a web conference. I won't tell the vendor because it has nothing to do with the vendor. Um, and I couldn't get a connection. I couldn't get a connection at reinvent. I just couldn't get it. I'm sorry guys. I can't get it. So I, you know, so we talk about real time talking about real-time operating systems and real time data collection at the edge. Yeah. We're there, we can collect the data and we can deploy a model in, you know, in the aircraft on the train to do predictive analytics. If we got to stream that data back home to the cloud, you know, we better figure out how to make sure we have a reliable and stable connection. 5g is a, you know, is, is, will be deployed, right? And it has ultra low latency, uh, and can achieve those types of, uh, requirements. But, uh, you know, it has to be in the right setting, right? That's to be the right setting and a facility, uh, very well controlled where you understand the density of the cell sites, small cells sound cells, and you really can deploy a, uh, a mobile robot, uh, wirelessly. Yes know, we can do that, but you know, kind of in, in, in other scenarios, we have a lot of ask that question about >>With the connections and making that false, huh? Well, he, thanks for coming on. Great insight, great conversation. Very deep, awesome work. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insights from cap Gemini. We're here in the cube, the worldwide leader in tech coverage live on the floor here at re-invent I'm John fare with Dave Nicholson. We write back.

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Well, hi everybody, John Walls here on theCUBE as we continue our IBM Think initiative. And today talking with Clemens Reijnen who is the Global CTO Cloud and DevOps Leader at Capgemini. And the Clemens, thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. Good to see you today. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. >> Yeah, tell us a little bit about Capgemini, if you will, first off for our viewers at home who might not be familiar with your services. Tell us a little bit about that and maybe a little bit more about your specific responsibilities there. >> So who doesn't know Capgemini in this system in the greater world and the IT world as we lived on a stone. So Capgemini is a worldwide system integrated with offerings in all kinds of spaces and all areas there. My responsibility is mainly around cloud and DevOps and taking care of countries or delivery centers have the right knowledge around cloud and the right capabilities around DevOps. And to support our customers and with their journey to the cloud into a digital organization. >> Yeah. Everybody's talking about digital these days. >> Everybody yeah. >> And it's magical digital transformation that's occurring, that's been going on for quite some time. What does that look like to you? And when you start defining digital organizations and digital transformations what are the kinds of things that you're talking about with organizations in terms of that kind of migration path? >> Yeah. So it's quite interesting to just start discussion about how does a digital landscape looks like for an organization wants to start transforming to a digital organization. And then when you are looking at that I'm always talking to discretion with business capabilities. An organization wants to create business capabilities either to interact and engage with their workforce and to make them work in the most efficient way. And what they are using for that are all kinds of different digital channels. And those digital channels they can be a mobile app. I'm working with my mobile app to connect with my work. I'm calling, I'm using zoom, I'm using teams and that kind of stuff. We also using chatbots for IT devices. And that's what the normal workforce expect nowadays. All have to have all those digital channels to interact with the business. That's also on the other side, at the customer side and organizations want to engage and grow on the customer site and have their nice interaction there. And again, they are using those digital channels all the different digital channels, maybe IoT, maybe API to interact with those customers to bring them the engagement interaction they really want to have. And in that transformation part definitely they are looking at what kind of challenges I have with working with customers like this and working with my workforce. Now everybody's working from home challenges with maybe the connections and that kind of stuff. But they are also starting to leverage, and that's where the transformation and migration start with their on-prem systems, their legacy systems to move those kinds of capabilities and enrich that with cloud native capabilities to all kinds of enterprise solutions like the ones from IBM for example, to expose that to their digital channels, to their organizations. And that's the landscape, how it looks like. And then we have the discussion with organizations. How do you want to engage with your customers? What kind of digital channels do you need? What are the business systems you have and how can we enrich them and expose them to the outside world with all the enterprise solutions around them. >> And when you talk about a process like this which sounds holistic, right? You're looking at, what do you have? Where do you want to go? What are your business needs? Which all makes great sense. But then all of a sudden you start hitting speed bumps along the way. There are always challenges in terms of deployments There are always challenges in terms of decisions and those things. So what are you hearing again from on the customer side about, what are my pain points? What are my headaches here as I know, I want to make this jump, but how do I get there? And I have these obstacles in my way. >> Yeah, definitely. And the ones I explained already which are underlooked for site and on the customer side. You want to have the engagements there you want to have interactions there. And then you have that whole digital landscape which comes with some interesting challenges. Then how do I implement this landscape in the right scalable way? How do I expose my data in such a way that it is secure? How do I leverage all the capabilities from the platforms I'm using? And how do I make all these moving parts consistent, compliant with the regulations I need to work towards to? How do I make it secure? So those are definitely big enterprise challenges like appliances, security and that kind of stuff but also technology challenges. How do I adopt those kinds of technologies? How do I make it scalable? How do I make it really an integrated solution on its own? So that my platform is not only working for the digital channels we know right now but they are also ready for the digital channels We don't know yet will start to come here. That's the biggest challenges there for me. >> Yeah. I want to get into that a little bit later too. Cause you raised a great point. Well, let's just jump right now. We know what the here now is but you just talked about building for the future building for a more expansive footprint or kinds of capabilities that frankly we're not even aware of right now. So how do you plan for that kind of flexibility that kind of agility when it's a bit unpredictable? >> Yeah. And that's what every organization tries to be agile, flexible, resilient and you need to build your system conform that. And well we normally start with you need to have a clear foundation and a foundation when, for example when you are using the cloud for it every organization is cloud for it. You want to have that foundation in such a way that those digital channels can connect really easy to it. And then the capabilities the business capabilities created are done by product teams product and feature teams are creating those kinds of capabilities on top of that cloud foundation. And in that foundation, you want to put everything in place. What makes it easy for those teams to focus on that business functionality on those business capabilities. You want to make it very easy for them to do it the right thing that I always love to say that that's what you want to put in your cloud foundation. And that's where you are harnessing your security. Every application with learning on the foundation has secure. You are embracing a standard way of working although not every DevOps teams like that they want to be organizing and that kind of stuff. But when you are having 50 or a 100 DevOps teams you'd want to have some kind of standardization and provide them a way. And again, the easy way should be the right way to provide them templates, provide them technologies so that they can really focus very quickly on those kinds of business capabilities. So the cloud foundation is the base that needs to be in place. >> Now, you've been doing this for a long time and the conversation used to be, shall we move to the cloud? Can we move to the cloud? Now it's about how fast can we move to the cloud? How much do we move to the cloud? So looking at that kind of the change in paradigm if you will, what are organizations having to consider in terms of the scale, the depth, the breadth of their offering now, because innovation and as you know, it can happen at a much faster pace than it could have just a very short time ago. >> Yeah. And then I'm reflecting again back to the easy thing should be the right thing. That's what you want to do for your DevOps. >> I love that concept. (laughs) >> And that's where you should focus on as an organization. For example, what we've put in place. We put a lot of standardization, a lot of knowledge in place in what we call in an Inner Source library. And in that Inner Source library, for example we put all kinds of strips, all kinds of templates all kinds of standardization for teams who want to deploy OpenShift on their platform or want to start working with certain cloud packs. That they can set it up very easily conforms the standards of your organization and start moving from there. And then in the cloud foundation, you have your cloud management and the IBM Cloud Manager because organizations are definitely going towards the hybrid scenarios, different organizational or units wants to start using different clouds in there. And also for the migration part you want to have that grow from there. And standardization, Inner Source and having those templates ready, it's key for organizations now to speed up and be ready to start juggling around with workloads now on any cloud where you want to and that's the idea. >> Sure. Now, so Red Hats involved in this she had IBM involved as well obviously your partnership working with them. Talk about that kind of merger of resources, if you will. And in terms of what the value proposition is to your clients at the end of the day to have that kind of firepower working in their behalf. >> Yeah. And that's for example, IBM is for us a very important partner. Definitely on the hybrid multi-cloud scenarios where we can leverage OpenShift on those kinds of platforms for our customers. And we created what I said, templates, scripts. We use the IBM garage projects for it to create deployments for our teams in a kind of self servicing way to deploy those OpenShift clusters on top of the cloud platform of their choice. And then for sure, with the multi-cloud manager from IBM we can manage that actually in the lending zone and that's actually the whole ID. And you want to give the flexibility and the speeds to your DevOps teams to be able to do the right thing is the easy thing. And then manage it from your cloud foundation so that they are comfortable that when they're putting the workloads in that whole multi hybrid cloud platform that it is managed, organized all in the right way. And that that's definitely where IBM Red Hat OpenShift comes in play. And because they have already such a great tool sets ready it really think DevOps. That's what I really like. And also with the migrations, it comes with a lot of DevOps capabilities in there not playing lift shift but also the modelisation immediately in there. And that's what I like about our partnership with IBM is just, they are DevOps in mind also. That's cool. >> Yeah. What about the speed here? Just in general, just about the, almost the pace of change and what's happening in that space cause it used to be these kinds of things took forever. It seemed like or evolutions, transitions were to take a long period of time. It's not the case anymore now that things are happening in relatively lightning speed. So when you're talking with an organization about the kinds of changes they could make and the speed at which they can do that. Marry those up for me and those conversations that you're having. And if I'm a CIO out there and I'm thinking about how am I going to flip this switch? Convince me right now, (Clemens laughing) What are the key factors? And how easy, how right will this be for me? >> So as a CIO, you want to have your scalable and your flexible organization probably at this moment, you're sitting with your on-prem system with probably a very large relational database with several components around there. And now you want to fuel those digital channels there. The great way with IBM with Red Hat is that we can deploy OpenShift container solutions everywhere and then starting to modernize those small components or at that big relational database. And we were at starting to do that, we can do that really at Lightspeed. And there are, we have a factory model up and running, where we can put in the application landscape of a customer and look at it and say, "Okay, this one is quite easy. We are running it to, or modernization street. And it runs into a container." And from there, you start to untangle actually the hair ball of your whole application landscape and starting to move those components. And you definitely want to prioritize them. And that's where you have discussions with the business, which is most valuable to move first and which one to move there. And that's actually what we put in place is the factory model to analyze an application landscape of a customer, having the discussions with those customers and then say, "Okay we are going to move these workloads first. Then we are going to analyze the count of these and then we are going to move these." And we really start rocking fast moving their workloads to the cloud and so that they can start and reach those digital channels you want to do it in half. >> Well, a great process. And I love your analogies by the way you say about hairball there. (Clemens and John laughing) I totally get it. Hey Clemens, thank you for the time today. I appreciate hearing about the Capgemini story and about your partnership with IBM. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> All right. So well, we have learned one thing the easy thing is the right thing and that's the Capgemini way of getting things done. You've been watching part of the IBM Think initiative here on theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>Fly from San Francisco. It's the cube covering RSA conference 2020 San Francisco brought to you by Silicon angled medias >>live in. Welcome to the cube coverage here in San Francisco at Moscone hall for RSA 2020 I'm John furrier, host of the cube. We're here breaking down all the actions in cyber security. I'll say three days of wall-to-wall cube coverage. You got two great guests here, experts in the cybersecurity enterprise security space. Over 25 years. We've got two gurus and experts. We've got Bob Mindell, executive vice president of North America cyber practice for cap Gemini and Joe McMahon, head of North America cyber strategy, even a practitioner in the intelligence community. Langley, you've been in the business for 25 years. You've seen the waves guys, welcome to the cube. Thank you John. Thanks for having us. So first let's just take a step back. A cyber certainly on the number one agenda kind of already kind of broken out of it in terms of status, board level conversation, every CSO, risk management and a lot of moving parts. >>Now, cyber is not just a segment in the industry. It is the industry. Bob, this is a big part of business challenge today. What's your view? What was going on? So John has a great point. It's actually a business challenge and that's one of the reasons why it's now the top challenge. It's been a tech challenge for a long time. It wasn't always a business challenge for you as was still considered an it challenge and once it started impacting business and got into a board level discussion, it's now top of mind as a business challenge and how it can really impact the business continuity. Joe is talking before we came on camera about you know CEOs can have good days here and there and bad days then but sees us all have bad days all the time because there's so much, it's so hard. You're on the operations side. >>You see a day to day in the trenches as well as the strategy. This is really an operations operationalizing model. As new technology comes out, the challenge is operationalizing them for not only a business benefit but business risk management. It's like changing an airplane engine out at 35,000 feet. It's really hard. What are you seeing as the core challenge? This is not easy. It's a really complex industry. I mean, you take the word cybersecurity, right? Ready? Cybersecurity conference. I see technology, I see a multitude of different challenges that are trying to be solved. It means something different to everybody, and that's part of the problem is it's a really broad ecosystem that we're in. If you meet one person that says, I know all of cyber, they're lying, right? It's just like saying, I know active directory and GRC and I know DNS and I know how to, how to code, right? >>Those people don't exist and cyber is a little bit the same way. So for me, it's just recognizing the intricacies. It's figuring out the complexities, how people processing technology really fit together and it's an operation. It is an ongoing, and during operation, this isn't a program that you can run. You run it for a year, you install and you're done. There's ebbs and flows. You talked about the CISOs and the bad days. There's wins and there's losses. Yeah. And I think part of that is just having the conversation with businesses. Just like in it, you have bad days and good days wins and losses. It's the same thing in cybersecurity and we've got to set that expectation. Yeah, you didn't bring up a good point. I've been saying this on the cube and we've been having conversations around this. It used to be security as part of it, right? >>But now that it's part of the business, the things that you're mentioning around people, process, technology, the class, that kind of transformational formula, it is business issues, organizational behavior. Not everyone's an expert specialism versus generalists. So this is like not just a secure thing, it's the business model of a company is changing. So that's clear. There's no doubt. And then you've got the completion of the cloud coming, public cloud, hybrid multi-cloud. Bob, this is a number one architectural challenge. So outside of the blocking and tackling basics, right, there's now the future business is at risk. What does cap Gemini do? And because you guys are well known, great brand, helping companies be successful, how do you guys go to customers and say, Hey, here's what you do. What's the, what's the cap Gemini story? >>So the cat termini stories is really about increasing your cybersecurity maturity, right? As Joe said, starting out at the basics. If you look at a lot of the breaches that have occurred today have occurred because we got away from the basics and the fundamentals, right? Shiny new ball syndrome. Really. Exactly exasperates that getting away from the basics. So the technology is an enabler, but it's not the be all and end all right, go into the cloud is absolutely a major issue. That's increasing the perimeter, right? We've gone through multiple ways as we talked about, right? So now cloud is is another way, cloud, mobile, social. How do you deal with those from on prem, off prem. But ultimately it's about increasing your cyber cyber security maturity and using the cloud as just increasing the perimeter, right? So you need to, you really need to understand, you have your first line defense and then your maturity is in place. Whether the data resides in your organization, in the cloud, on a mobile device, in a social media, you're responsible for it all. And if you don't have the basics, then you're, you're really, and you guys bring a playbook, is that what you guys come in and do? Correct. Correct. Right. So our goal is to coordinate people, process technology and leverage playbooks, leverage the run books that we had been using for many years. >>I want to get down to you on this one because of what happens when you take that to the, into the practitioner mode or at implementation. Customers want the best technology possible. They go for the shiny new choice. Bob just laid out. There's also risks too because it may or may not be big. So you've got to balance out. I got to get an edge technically because the perimeters becoming huge surface area now or some say has gone. Now you've got edge, just all one big exposed environment, surface area for vulnerabilities is massive. So I need better tech. How do you balance and obtain the best tech and making sure it works and it's in production and secure. So there's a couple of things, right, and this is not, it's not just our, and you'll hear it from other people that have been around a long time, but a lot of organizations that we see have built themselves so that their cybersecurity organization is supporting all these tools that we see. >>That's the wrong way to do it. The tools should support the mission of the organization, right? If my mission is to defend my enterprise, there are certain things that I need to do, right? There's questions I need to be able to ask and get answers to. There's data I need visibility into. There's protections and controls I need to be able to implement. If I can lay those out in some coordinated strategic fashion and say, here's all the things I'm trying to accomplish, here's who's going to do it. Here's my really good team, here's my skilled resources, here's my workflows, my processes, all that type of stuff. Then I can go find the right technology to put into that. And I can actually measure if that technology is effective in supporting my mission. But too often we start with the technology and then we hammer against it and we run into CISOs and they say, I bought all this stuff and it's not working and come hell yeah. >>And that's backing into it the wrong. So I've heard from CSOs, I'd like they buying all these tools. It's like a tool shed. Don't be the fool with the wrong tool as they I say. But that brings up the question of, okay, as you guys go to customers, what are some of the main pain points or issues that they're trying to overcome that that are opportunities that you guys are helping with? Uh, on the business side and on the technical side, what are some of the things? So on the business side, you know, one is depending on their level of maturity and the maturity of the organization and the board of directors and their belief in, in how they need to help fund this. We can start there. We can start by helping draw out the threat landscape within that organization where they are maturity-wise and where they need to go and help them craft that message to the board of directors and get executive sponsorship from the board down in order to take them from baby, a very immature organization or you know, a reactive organization to an adaptive organization, right. >>And really become defenders. So from a business perspective, we can help them there. From the technology perspective, Joe, uh, you know, or an implementation perspective. I think, you know, it's been a really interesting road like being in this a long time, you know, late two thousands when nation States were first really starting to become a thing. All the industries we were talking to, every customer is like, I want to be the best in my industry. I want to be the shining example. And boards in leadership were throwing money at it and everybody was on this really aggressive path to get there. The conversation is shifted a little bit with a lot of the leadership we talked to. It's, I just want to be good enough, maybe a little bit better than good enough, but my, my objective anymore is it to leave the industry. Cause that's really expensive and there's only one of those. >>My objective is to complete my mission maybe a little bit above and beyond, but I need the right size and right. So we spent a lot of time helping organizations, I would say optimize, right? It's what is the right level of people, what is the right amount of resources, what's the right spend, what's the right investment, the right allocation of technology and mix of everything, right? And sometimes it's finding the right partner. Sometimes it's doing certain things in house. It's, there's no one way to solve this problem, but you've got to go look at the business challenges. Look at the operational realities of the customer, their budgets, all those, their geographies mattered, right? Some places it's easy to hire talent. Some places it's not so easy to hire talent. And that's a good point, right? Some organizations, >>they just need to understand what does good look like and we can, we have so many years of experience. We have so many customers use skates is we've been there and we've done that. We can bring the band and show them this is what good looks like and this is sustainable >>of what good looks like. I want to get your reactions to, I was talking to Keith Alexander, general Keith Alexander, a former cyber command had last night and we were talking about officers, his defense and that kind of reaction. How the Sony hack was was just was just, they just went after him as an example. Everyone knows about that hack, but he really was getting at the idea of human efficiency, the human equation, which is if you have someone working on something that here, but their counterpart might be working on it maybe from a different company or in the same company, they're redundant. So there's a lot of burnout, a lot of people putting out fires. So reactive is clearly, I see as a big trend that the conversation's shifting towards let's be proactive, let's get more efficient in the collaboration as well as the technology. What you, how do you guys react to that? What's your view on that statement? So >>people is the number one issue, in my opinion. In this space, there's a shortage of people. The people that are in it are working very long hours. They're burnt out. So we constantly need to be training and bringing more people into the industry. Then there's the scenario around information sharing, right? Threat information sharing, and then what levels are you comfortable with as an organization to share that information? How can you share best practices? So that's where the ice sacks come into play. That's also where us as a practitioner and we have communities, we have customers, we bring them together to really information, share, share, best practice. It's in all of our best interests. We all have the same goal and the goal is to protect our assets, especially in the United States. We have to protect our assets. So we need, the good thing is that it's a pretty open community in that regards and sharing the information, training people, getting people more mature in their people, process technology, how they can go execute it. >>Yeah. What's your take on the whole human equation piece? Right? So sharing day, you probably heard a word and the word goes back to where I came from, from my heritage as well, but I'm sure general Alexander used the word mission at some point, right? So to me, that's the single biggest rallying point for all of the people in this. If you're in this for the right reasons, it's because you care about the mission. The mission is to defend us. Stop the bad guys from doing days, right? Whether you're defending the government, whether you're defending a commercial enterprise, whether you're defending the general public, right? Whatever the case is, if you're concerned, you know, if you believe in the mission, if you're committed to the mission, that's where the energy comes from. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of talk about the skill gap and the talent gap and all of those types of things. >>To me, it's more of a mindset issue than anything. Right? The skill sets can be taught. They can be picked up over time. I was a philosophy major. All right? Somehow I ended up here. I have no idea how, um, but it's because I cared about the mission and everybody has a part to play. If you build that peer network, uh, both at an individual level and at an organizational and a company level, that's really important in this. Nobody's, nobody's an expert at everything. Like we said, you brought a philosophy. I think one of the things I have observed in interviewing and talking to people is that the world's changed so much that you almost need those fresh perspectives because the problems are new problems, statements, technology is just a part of the problem set back to the culture. The customer problem, Bob, is that they got to get all this work done. >>And so what are some of the use cases that you guys are working on that that is a low hanging fruit in the industry or our customer base? How do you guys engage with customers? So our target market is fortune 500 global 1000 so the biggest of the big enterprises in the world, right? And because of that, we've seen a lot of a complex environments, multinational companies as our customers. Right? We don't go at it from a pure vertical base scenario or a vertical base solution. We believe that horizontal cybersecurity can it be applied to most verticals. Right. And there's some tweaking along the way. Like in financial services, there's regulars and FFIC that you need to be sure you adapt to. But for the most part the fundamentals are applicable. All right. With that said, you know, large multinational manufacturing organization, right? They have a major challenge in that they have manufacturing sites all over the world. >>They building something that is, you know, unique. It has significant IP to it, but it's not secure. Historically they would have said, well, nobody's really gonna just deal steal what we do because it's really not differentiated in the world, but it is differentiated and it's a large corporation making a lot of money. Unfortunately ransomware, that'd be a photographer. Ransomware immediately, right? Like exact down their operations and their network, right? So their network goes down. They can have, they can, they can not have zero downtown and their manufacturing plants around the world. So for us, we're implementing solutions and it's an SLA for them is less than six seconds downtime by two that help secure these global manufacturing environment. That's classic naive when they are it. Oh wow. We've got to think about security on a much broader level. I guess the question I have for you guys, Joe, you talk about when do you guys get called in? >>I mean what's your main value proposition that you guys, cause you guys got a broad view of the industry, that expertise. Why do, why are customers calling you guys and what do you guys deliver? They need something that actually works, right? It's, it's you mentioned earlier, I think when we were talking how important experiences, right? And it's, Bob said it too, having been there, done that I think is really important. The fact that we're not chasing hype, we're not selling widgets. That we have an idea of what good looks like and we can help an organization kind of, you know, navigate that path to get there is really important. So, uh, you know, one of our other customers, large logistics company, been operating for a very long time. You know, very, very mature in terms of their, it operations, those types of things. But they've also grown through merger and acquisition. >>That's a challenge, uh, cause you're taking on somebody else's problem set and they just realize, simply put that their existing security operations wasn't meeting their needs. So we didn't come in and do anything fancy necessarily. It's put a strategic plan in place, figure out where they are today, what are the gaps, what do they need to do to overcome those gaps? Let's go look at their daily operations, their concept of operations, their mission, their vision, all of that stuff down to the individual analysts. Like we talked about the mindset and skillset. But then frankly it's putting in the hard work, right? And nobody wants to put in the heart. I don't want to say nobody wants to put in the hard work. That's fun. There's a lot of words that's gets done I guess by the questions that you guys getting called in on from CSOs chief and Mason security officers. >>Guess who calls you? So usually we're in talking to the Cisco, right? We're having the strategic level conversation with the Cisco because the Cisco either has come in new or has been there. They may have had a breach. Then whatever that compelling event may be, they've come to the realization that they're not where they need to be from a maturity perspective and their cyber defense needs revamping. So that's our opportunity for us to help them really increase the maturity and help them become defenders. Guys, great for the insight. Thanks for coming on the cube. Really appreciate you sharing the insights. Guys. Give a quick plug for what you guys are doing. Cap Gemini, you guys are growing. What do you guys look to do? What are some of the things that's going on? Give the company plug. Thanks Sean show. It's been a very interesting journey. >>You know this business started out from Lockheed Martin to Leidos cyber. We were acquired by cap Gemini a year ago last week. It's a very exciting time. We're growing the business significantly. We have huge growth targets for 2020 and beyond, right? We're now over 800 practitioners in North America, over 2,500 practitioners globally, and we believe that we have some very unique differentiated skill sets that can help large enterprises increase their maturity and capabilities plug there. Yeah, I mean, look, nothing makes us happier than getting wins when we're working with an organization and we get to watch a mid level analyst brief the so that they just found this particular attack and Oh by the way, because we're mature and we're effective, that we were able to stop it and prevent any impact to the company. That's what makes me proud. That's what makes it so it makes it fun. >>Final question. We got a lot of CSOs in our community. They're watching. What's the pitch to the CSO? Why, why you guys, we'd love to come in to understand what are their goals, how can we help them, but ultimately where do they believe they think they are and where do they need to go and we can help them walk that journey. Whether it's six months, a year, three years, five years. We can take them along that journey and increase the cyber defense maturity. Joe, speak to the CSO. What are they getting? They're getting confidence. They're getting execution. They're getting commitment to delivery. They're getting basically a, a partner in this whole engagement. We're not a vendor. We're not a service provider. We are a partner. A trusted partner. Yeah, partnerships is key. Building out in real time. A lot new threats. Got to be on offense and defense going on. A lot of new tech to deal with. I mean, it's a board level for a long time. Guys, thanks for coming on. Cap Gemini here inside the cube, bringing their practices, cybersecurity, years of experience with big growth targets. Check them out. I'm John with the cube. Thanks for watching.

>> Live from London, England, it's The Cube, covering .NEXT Conference Europe 2018. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> The Cube at Nutanix .NEXT 2018 in London. It might be a little cold, blistery, and rainy outside, but it's nice and dry and warm in here. Digging into all the technology in the ecosystem, I'm Stu Miniman, co-host is Joep. Happy to welcome to the program, first-time guest Anthony Daloyau, who is the head of Alliance for SEU for Capgemini. Anthony, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much. >> Alright, so we're quite familiar with Capgemini. Many partners, definitely doing a lot in the Cloud for many years now. About two years ago, my understanding, is when you started working with Nutanix. Tell us what brought that to have you add that into the offerings. >> At Capgemini, we are continuously, carefully curate a global ecosystem of technology and business player, and also startup to provide our clients with access to the latest thinking technology, and experiences across all activity sector. And went on to realize value from this ecosystem. For each client, we adopt independent posture to identify on a case-by-case basis those partners that prefer the best of great internal solution and to be sure we can response to each challenge from our questioner. When it comes to Capgemini cloud infrastructure offering as part of the development of the hybrid cloud services we made some years ago, we need a partner with the widest possible openness in terms of the (mumbles) solution, (mumbles) support and although on the spot servers. Two years ago, as you know, the technology were not as developed as today but Nutanix had already some wider branch of functionalities, more than it's competition. It's why we made this show two years ago was clearly the main difference between Nutanix and the other one. >> So looking at Nutanix, they're a big company now, they have a lot of products. So can you tell us a little bit about the use cases that you use at Nutanix for your customers. >> The first case where we use ourself, the Nutanix solution to the customer is obviously the private cloud. As part of the (mumbles) strategy we made. The second one is the VDI project. We have a lot of references or successes on the VDI with Nutanix transistors and most simply, we tripled the Nutanix solution to replace the traditional intra-server storage and it allows us to add more agility, more simplicity in the software, define at a central model. >> So you're talking about data center, you're talking about VDI, that's traditional on-prem workloads. So maybe to to add a little bit about the transition from on-prem into the public cloud and how do you define which applications go where, which do you leave on-prem, which go to the cloud. Does Capgemini have a solution for that, how does that work? >> We developed a few years ago tools named EAPM, the acronym is economical application portfolio management. EAPM is part of the global approach to merge the information system and to define and to build a trajectory to the public cloud, to the private cloud but also the digital transformation globally to the (mumbles) cloud. We took the information from the CMDB but also from the data sensitivity, the different floors, the dynamics of the application and we define in three decision model how we can go to the different platform. Of course the public cloud is a target, but we can define to go to Yas Pas, private, public, on-site, on-prem and the last project we made, we're using the APM. We discover that there is not yet 100% to the direction of the public cloud. Some application (mumbles) need still to have something in private mode and of course we use Nutanix to (mumbles) which is a (mumbles). >> So Nutanix is not been sitting still. The last few years, they've really expanded their offering. I believe I heard it was like two years ago, they basically had two products. Today they have over 14, they've done MNA, they laid out a road map of innovation. What is exciting your team, what do you expect to take with that and work with your customers over the next couple of quarters? >> Nutanix is one of the software details. We understand how and why it adds value to work with a system integrator like Capgemini. So the first thing we expect is to continue to develop our offer based on the Nutanix technology and we hope they will maybe, this year, next year, develop a dedicated program for (mumbles) like Cap because two days I have programmed for the classic, traditional reseller from big player, not yet for the adversarial. I think it's the first point. The second point, I expect they continue to support us on develop offer, on top of their products and the last one is, we saw a lot of new, or a lot of new functionalities that we expect they continue to develop on the orchestration or segmentation on network and so on and so on. For us, globally, the best and important part now, because the global platform able to understand it, able to standardize it and for us, it's very, very important. >> Alright, so Anthony, what are the questions people have all the time is how do I keep up and one of the answers I have today is look, you have to have partners that you could turn to. Both the technology partners and very importantly, the system integrator partners are one of the real ways. How does Capgemini differentiate, how are you helping customers with this journey to keeping up into the cloud and beyond. The main point is we start from the application. A lot of time we think our competitor is nothing. The question about the cloud, which is a requisitory, public, private, now the real question is, how can I move my application, where can I put the application. So I think the main differentiator from Capgemini about the competition, we take an advantage of EAPM, or own tool to define with the application where we want to go, where we can go. >> Alright, well Anthony, really appreciate the updates. Congratulation for the progress, we look forward to keeping an eye on where things go. Alright, be sure to stay with us. Full day of coverage here Nutanix .NEXT 2018 in London. Thank you for watching The Cube. (light electronic music)

>> Live from Washington D.C., it's theCUBE covering Inforum DC 2018. Brought to you by Infor. >> Welcome back to Washington D.C., we are live here at theCUBE at Inforum '18. I'm John Walls along with Dave Vallante and it's a pleasure now to welcome to the show from Capgemini couple of folks, Rachel Myers, who's Director of Alliances at Capgemini. (laughing) And John Clark, who's the VP of info-practice at Capgemini and Dave put your phone away, would you please. >> We're off to a good start. >> We are. (laughing) >> Who are you guys again? >> I think it was givin' him directions for dinner tonight. I think what you're doing. It's down at K Street take a right. >> Don't drive scooters without a helmet. >> That's right. Inside story. Rachel and John, thanks for being with us. We appreciate the time here. >> Thanks for having us. >> Let's talk about the partnership with Infor. Where it's coming from. What you are adding to that. How you view it and what you're gettin' out of it. And John, if you would? >> Yeah absolutely. First, hello from D.C., he said. The relationship that Capgemini has had with Infor goes back over 20 years. But we formalized it really two years ago and had a strategic partnership defined around several of the products that Infor has with a big focus on digital and cloud. So Capgemini sees that Infor is really leading the charge in a lot of native cloud products out there and we know that, that is certainly something our clients are looking for. So formalized relationship and extremely excited to be lead partners and sponsors here at Inforum. >> And so Rachel, where do you come into play here then as far as Director of Alliances goes? I think the job title probably speaks for itself, but in terms of how the Infor relationship works and where it comes in to your portfolio onto your plate, how does that work? >> So I manage the relationship with Infor as our customers are looking at cloud and all the options out there. I manage the relationship into Infor bringing the right folks to bear to our customers and joining at the hip where we need to in support of our customers. >> Okay, so you mentioned John, that its been a 20 year relationship. So that means it goes back probably to the loss and software days, right? The whole early days of ERP. Now we come into the modern era, cloud. We're hearing all about AI. We're also hearing about, sort of, micro-verticals and industry expertise. >> Yes, yes. >> So square that circle for me because you guys have deep industry expertise. How do you mesh with Infor? >> Yeah great question. We absolutely, as you said, go to market from a sector perspective, so everything we do has some tent of an industry or a sector verticalisation and it matches exactly well with how Infor goes to market with last model functionality. So what we do for example, is look at where Infor and our sector team see gaps like on food processing companies and we'll build out that solution and take that to market. So really kind of extending the last malfunctionality with Infor and having Capgemini's solutions as well. >> So does that functionality ultimately make it back into Infor code or not necessarily? >> Not necessarily. >> Okay, all right. So it's like last inch function-- >> Right exactly. That's a pretty good analogy for it. >> Okay so, well, it's always the hardest part, right? I mean you think of cable, you think of all the-- >> Telephone whatever. >> Sort of examples, right? So, you know the old story is if you're here and you want to get to the wall and you go half way, you never get there, right? >> Exactly. >> So that's kind of the process that you're in. There's always more to do, right? >> Right. >> Okay, so what's hot these days in your space? >> Well we're here at Inforum talking to customers and our partners about many things. But we actually are speaking about Industry 4.0 which is a big hot topic. Supply chain and EAM, Enterprise Asset Management. We have practices and expertise in all of those, so we can bring the best to our customers from a system integration partner capability which would be us along with Infor and the products that they bring to bear. >> So what's the 101 on 4.0? Presumably a lot of automation, more efficiency, driving business value. How would you describe Industry 4.0 Next Gen? >> It's the next evolution, I would say, to automation of processees. We're getting closer, I would think, and people are definitely piloting to get there, but building a road map and helping them really see the value is what we're trying to do with our customers these days and making it real and really producing some ROI beyond that with automation. >> So AI is a piece of that? How about, have you seen like blockchain hit yet? Or is that sort of on people's road maps? >> I think it's definitely a road map item. I think there's some experimentation, but what we're definitely seeing become real is robotics process automation, RPA. We're doin' a lot of that with our customers and taking it beyond experimentation to actual ROI. >> And the RPA is exploding. I was actually impressed and surprised to hear so much RPA talk this morning. I didn't realize that Infor had quasi out of the box capbilities there. So what are you seeing? A lot of, sort of back office functions getting automated, software robots getting trained to do mundane tasks? What's the experience there? >> I think as we are implementing ERPs like Infor's, there is a need to take processes that customers are doing today manual and automate those to see the extension and the ROI beyond just the ERP software. >> We do see a lot of it start in the back office, so a lot of finance and HR functions is kind of the first place that companies look for 'cause on thing that we do see on RPA projects is don't try to tackle everything, but get focused and get some quick wins, if you will and that's really where we built our library and where we work with Infor. >> Is it fair the automation of it is coming from the lines of business which is kind of your wheelhouse, right? >> Right. >> It's not, sort of an IT thing so much. IT is probably a little afraid of it, but is that the way you see it? >> Yes it is. >> Okay and so talk about Capgemini's strategy as the world sort of evolves. You know, you always hear small projects, small wins are the way to go and for years it was like the big SAP implementation >> Yeah. >> Or the big Oracle implementation. How are you guys changing your business to accommodate that new thinking? >> So really on several fronts. One is definitely the methodology that we have and we see on projects is shifting from a waterfall to an agile. So much quicker iterations and cycles on the projects themselves and usually the scope. It will start off with a line of business and again, if it's looking for, hey, I just need to improve the digital relationship I have with my customer. Which can a lot of times just mean start a digital relationship with my customer. So it's really, you kind of keep a tight focus on the scope and just have an agile approach which, again, is what we have changed our methodologies for. >> So digital obviously is real. I mean, every CEO that we talk to is trying to get digital right. A lot of experimentation going on. Like you said a lot of, hey we have to have a digital strategy then you throw AI into the mix. You throw things like blockchain. It's a complicated situation for a lot of firms. What are the discussions like with customers? Where are you seeing the most success or early traction? >> I think having the vision and the scope of where you want to go three years, five years down the road and being able to prioritize against that road map what's going to give you the biggest benefit first, so that it's not just haphazardly trying out these technology enablers like RPA and AI, it is a clear vision and strategy of where we're trying to go and solely hitting some of that ROI and seeing value. >> Are you seeing more of a save money, make money kind of a mix? What are you seeing there? I would say probably a mix, save money for the right reasons and spend money to get the ROI that we're planning for in that road map. >> Just to amplify on the point that you're making Dave. Just from the customer side of the fence on this, for people who aren't, you're just introducing them to the cloud, right? To begin with and they're trying to embrace or understand a concept that they don't have any experience with and now you think of all these other capabilities you have down the road or all these other opportunities whether it's artificial intelligence or whether it's RPA, whatever it is. It's got to be mind-blowing. A little bit, doesn't it? And how do you, I guess, calm 'em down if they realize we are that far behind. We're never going to get there. We're always going to be three, five, 10 years behind because we're that far behind right now. So how do you, I guess, allay their concerns and then get them up to speed at such a way that they feel like they can catch up? >> Yeah, say one of the key things that we can provide is various maturity models. So we have kind of a keepin' it simple of a two by two grid of where do you fall from digital enablement? A, do you even know what that means? Do you do it within divisions or certain lines of business? And then, is that a part of the strategy for your customer acquisition, customer retention, employee retention, et cetera. And start with kind of a fit there and then we basically have offerings that then go from okay, if you're starting out then the approach can be let's go through what cloud is. Like I said, there are absolutely still discussions that we have now on, hey what is the difference between cloud and on-prem? Is it the same software version? Is it a different software? What are the security features and the data center? Some of those questions are still out there as you said and we've got to look at the maturity model to get 'em there. >> So let's go through the simple, I like simple, the two dimensional, one of the buckets, so it's like, hey, we're not even thinkin' about it, it's kind of lower left. Upper left would be line of business focus sort of narrow. Lower right would be at strategic, but we're not acting on it yet. >> Right, in a division or a single line of business or I may have a cross functional solution with a great digital road map, but it's in one plant, you know, 'cause then you get into, okay, well that's probably because you either had a champion locally or you had some trigger such as some customer issues or production issues or something that forced the issue, so to speak, there. And then the top right is, yeah, it's part of the strategy. It's built in to where the budget is allocated as well and it's a part of all the conversations we're having with business and IT. >> Were you guys seeing particular, thinking about sticking on digital for a minute, you think particular industry uptake, I mean, obviously retail's been disrupted, publishing, you know the music industry's been disrupted. But there's certain industries that really haven't been dramatically disrupted yet, financial services, healthcare, defense, really to date, these high risk businesses. What are you guys seeing and kind of where's the greatest familiarity or affinity to digital? >> Where we're starting and where we've been focused with Infor and the market place is consumer products and distribution as well as manufacturing. That's really been a focus area for us and we didn't get into this, but John's team has capability in Infor and is skilled in Infor and there are some focus areas for us with the customers in those industry segments. >> Do you think that automation, AI, improvements in the supply chain, you know robotics even software robots will reverse the trend toward offshore manufacturing tariffs, I guess maybe help too, but I mean, are you seeing any evidence of that automation sort of making the pendulum swing back or are the cost advantages so attractive and is the supply chain so intrenched? >> I'll let John elaborate, but I would say that there is still a fit for purpose for offshoring certain things and for automating certain things and that's why I think it's important to build a plan and a strategy for which things will be solved for in which ways. >> Yeah and the one thing I want to add is as you see some plant go from, it took 200, 300 people to operate a facility to I can do it with 10. That changes the economics of now the labor cost and labor arbitrage isn't as much a function, but yes, what about the rent, facilities and transportation? So we are seeing the economic calculation change a bit from the point of just go offshore for labor. Well if labor is not a big a point, we are seeing a shift there. >> Right, so the labor component's shrinking. And then you can automate that. Is there a quality aspect or is that kind of a myth? >> We think that's a myth from what we're seeing. >> Quality can improve a little bit. >> Exactly. >> Won't go down. Won't go down. >> You're saying coming back on-shoring? Or are you saying offshoring? >> Or automating. Automating whether it's on or off. >> Oh regardless of the location, right? >> Right. >> Automation's going to drive quality up. Lower re-work, right? Okay. >> Robots do it a little bit better than us especially if it's repetitive. >> They don't get tired. (laughing) How about some of your favorite kind of joint examples with Infor, any kind of customer wins you can talk about? >> We're actually working together in a lot of spaces, but one of the biggest ones that we are actually talking about a case study here on the floor at Inforum is at Coke Industries, one of it's companies Flint Hills Resources. We're actually in the middle of an EAM implementation with Flint Hills and working together collaboratively with Infor at the client. >> And is that the or bigger picture, you said 20 year relationship formalized much more recently than that. Ultimately what does that deliver for the client? You think at the end of the day? What's the power of that partnership? >> So I think that there's several things, one is that with the experience and history of a Capgemini with 50 years of consulting experience and strategy work. We now specifically bring Infor and Infor's technology into the conversations that it was not a structure before two years ago. So now we specifically have, where does Infor fit in the road map from a software agnostic industry perspective? And then from a just a plain and simple support and keeping your customer's Infor environment running that's additional strength that we have that we didn't have before. >> So you guys are known for being technology agnostic even though you've got an affinity of going to market with a company in this case Infor. How are they doing? What's on the to do list? If you're talking to customers saying, hey this is the sweet spot," here's where some of the items we want them to improve on. What would you say? >> I'd say for, I can at least say tactically with my team we are looking to enhance our solution is around burst and analytics. So that's definitely a best debris tool in the marketplace and so where we can integrate that into more products 'cause it's, Infor acquired it year and a half ago. So we're trying to fold it in with each product and keeping that trajectory. Where again a customer only has one platform to support for-- >> So that's kind of infusing that modern BI into the platforms. Functionally you're kind of happy with it. >> Oh absolutely. >> And it's just a matter of getting the function into-- >> Right. >> The sweet. >> Have it the defacto. >> Right. >> That's where we want to get. >> Right, right. >> But honestly if you just look at the floor out there, you know from our perspective, the great showing and the excitement and just the conversations that we have around Infor. There's been some confusion, I would say, from, without naming names, other competitors of Infor's on what is our cloud and digital road map and then when we look at Infor with cloud native, you know from the ground up, it makes that back to one of the questions you had on, depending on where customers are starting, if you can go from the beginning like Infor has done with some of their products, natively built cloud up. Then those are great conversations and we're seeing more of that in the market right now. >> When we talk to customers, when you talk to the sort of, traditional vendors, they'll say it's a hybrid world, which seems to be. >> It's true. >> When you talk to other cloud guys, it's like, cloud, cloud, cloud. Now even AWS has somewhat capitulated, they've made some announcements to do stuff on-prem. But logically it makes sense that if the data is in some data center location, it's probably going to stay there for a while if it's working and it's a lot of it and you don't necessarily want to move it to the cloud, so do you buy that? Is it a hybrid world? Will it stay a hybrid world? Or do you feel like the pendulum really is swinging into the cloud or not because of IoT, it's more sort of a decentralized world. What do you guys think? >> I think it's a customer choice. Sometimes we have some federally regulated customers that are concerned about data and security and not necessarily there yet in terms of the cloud and we have some customers that are wanting to go 100% cloud so I think it is definitely customer choice and we are there to advise them whether cloud is the right answer and even to help them implement and support them on their journey. So I think we've seen all, every which flavor of cloud, hybrid. >> From your stand point, whatever you want, you're going to-- >> Yeah, I'd say in the past two or three years there's definitely more clients, I would say most now will look at some, when they're doing their TCO and software selection, they absolutely will lead with, hey at least the core part, ERP part, for example, what can I do for cloud with that? 'Cause there's just so much-- >> Considerationalities. >> Yeah the consideration versus three, five years ago no you wouldn't look at that, but I do think there absolutely will be a hybrid foot print going forward. >> Well, if there's an affinity to cloud, presumably Infor has an advantage there, 'cause they're born on the cloud, or at least for that part of the business and other entrenched ERP is not going to be so easy to move to the cloud. In fact that's what you want to do. >> And I think we share the vision with Infor and talking to customers with the cloud first approach. It makes sense to move to the cloud. There is value in the cloud and we can help build that story for them. >> Charles Philips pretty smooth spokesperson, he's a clear thinker, he laid out the strategy. The strategy of, this is my fourth Inforum, I mean, it's grown, but it's consistent, you know, he presents it in a manner that I think is pretty compelling, so that's got to make you feel good, right? You got a leader that's committed, been here for a while. >> Yeah absolutely and one other thing that I really do like about coming to Inforum to see Charles is he actually gets it. If you think of it from CEO of a large software company with hundreds of products, he knows where they actually fit and can go through kind of the road map and the story. So very credible. >> The partnership's a win-win for sure. It certainly sounds like you've painted a very good picture and we appreciate the time. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for being with us and good luck the next couple of days here at the show. Have fun. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate the time. >> Should be, right? (laughing) Back with more live in Washington D.C., you're watching theCUBE. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Live from New Orleans, Louisiana, it theCUBE. Covering .NEXT conference 2018, brought to you by Nutanix Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Nutanix .NEXT 2018. We're here in New Orleans, Louisiana. I'm Stu Miniman joined by my co-host Keith Townsend. And while this is the North America show, we've seen the expansion of it, we actually have two guests coming in from the Asia-Pacific region. Happy to welcome Rod Lappin. Rod, SVP with Lenovo, thank you so much for joining us all the way from Singapore. >> Yep, absolutely, great to be here. >> Stu: And we have Deepu George, who's the Senior Director with Capgemini Group IT, in from Bangalore Thank you also for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alright, so Deepu, let's start with you. We always love conferences like this. We get to talk to the users. Tell us a little bit about your group inside Capgemini, some of the challenges that your IT team's been tackling. >> Yes. So I'm part of the group IT, responsible for handling all the data centers, group data centers within Capgemini, and we are responsible for delivering data sorting services and processing services, et cetera. So, one of the key ideas we started last year was DC modernization and consolidation. And one of the key strategies we were looking at was hybrid cloud and extra DC stack, completed as revision stack, support for that and plus, you know, automation. So these were the three areas where, which was a key strategic areas for that data center modernization and consolidation. And when we looked at the various options available, one thing stood out from the Nutanix side was, I mean it checked all the boxes and they had a very good roadmap on certain areas which were not available at this particular point of time. So then we chose, okay let us have a PoC done, we did a PoC along with Lenovo and it was successful. And then we went ahead with this relationship with Nutanix. >> Great, Rod just want to bring you in here, we've been talking about really the growth and expansion of Netanix, one of the big pieces is the OEM. Lenovo have been hearing good growth rates. Give us a little bit of a customer viewpoint, what you've been seeing. Nutanix in general and the Lenovo HX specifically. >> Yeah I think obviously Stuart, the very exciting thing is Nutanix is the leader in the industry, right, and with them Lenovo this last year, we grew about 197%, year-on-year. So it makes us their fastest-growing partner. And in the North American channel environment, for example, you're at 280% actually, so we're growing very, very rapidly with them, and there's real reasons. Customers are seeing the value obviously in the solution, the consolidation of the data center footprint, and obviously as customers are being pushed more, as Deepu just mentioned, to the hybrid cloud, or what we're calling really the multi-cloud these days, right, because customers are really looking at and choosing their cloud solutions based more on the workloads and what they're actually trying to do longer-term. You know I think we're best positioned to do that with Nutanix, it's a great solution, I think Capgemini's really one of our great global, strategic global systems, integrated partners, that's taken a choice to run with Lenovo and Nutanix. It's been a great HX solution for us. >> So Rod, before we get too deep, let's ask a basic question. Lenovo, tier one server provider. You guys consistently in one of the leadership positions, and in number of units shipped, obviously you guys have the chops to field a similar solution. Why partner with Nutanix? >> Yeah I think Nutanix, firstly from a software perspective I think that's definitely where we're seeing, you know, if you jump back sort of 10, 15 years, that three-tiered architecture was where everyone was going, SAN and all that sort of stuff. Now when you're seeing the solutions that Nutanix and the hyper-converged market is growing so rapidly at, you're really seeing customers recognize that they get a lot more value out of the software suite, data center consolidation, data center footprint consolidation, and really the ability to manage on-prem and off-prem workloads seamlessly, you know with the prism solution and we integrate that with our Xclarity offering, our management suite, and as a result, it's a real match made in heaven. It's actually doing really well. >> So Deepu? >> I'll talk to that, if you look at software-defined, and that is a key area where we are going right now. Most of the organizations for this data consolidation, they are looking at software-defined, and when you look at the network stack, you have SDNs and all these things, so when you have Nutanix with an NCI, with the complete SD stack, it all ties up together. It's pretty easy for us to, you know, completely scale out the data centers. It's flexibility we have with software-defined and it's a good match, it's a good fit. >> Deepu can you walk us through a little bit of the application side of what you're doing? What did you start with? What have you rolled out? What haven't you touched yet? >> Yeah so once we started our PoC, once we know that data centers, so what we did was, we had our first data center consolidation exercise, modernization exercise, which just happened in Brazil. We had our own three data centers which we wanted to consolidate into one as part of our consolidation and modernize strategy. So we had a mix of upload there, we had basic things, we had normal applications, we had VMs running, we had physical nodes running. And what we did was we consolidated, moving into a single data center on 10 nodes of Nutanix, and we closed down all the other data centers and it was a pretty good experience that we had. The support we received from Lenovo and Nutanix and most of this work was done completely from off-shore. So we had a couple of our engineers posted in Brazil for the coordination activities, but the physical work was completely done from off-shore interfaced our support engineers. So it was a pretty good exercise. We got very good support from Nutanix. We got very good support from Lenovo to get consolation done in the correct time. >> So Deepu, Capgemini has a pretty capable consulting firm, I'm sure you guys got plenty of advice internally as you set out to select the vendor. Let's talk about that selection process. How did that conversation initially go, where you guys kind of threw out Nutanix and Lenovo as potential solutions? >> So if you look at the commercialization world right, I mean it's already pretty much standard. So when we looked at the key modernization initiatives, I already talked about this with VC and stuff like that. We came out with a list of parameters that we wanted to look at, just so that there cannot be any compromise on that. And then what we are looking for in the future when we, so modernization cannot happen in a day or two. So it is a journey. So we have a two- to three-year window in which we wanted to consolidate all our data centers, modernize everything, so the Nutanix roadmap on the various automation, STDC, as to the complete hybrid cloud journey, was pretty strong. And we had the complete management commitment from Nutanix, that they will stick to this particular roadmap and these features will not be compromised in any way. So that is one of the key decisions for us to go with the Nutanix way. >> Well let's talk about performance. You guys have been Nutanix customers for a while, how has the roadmap matched with the promises? >> So from a performance point-of-view, so if you look at only the pure CIA performance, right, wherever you have a high-performance workload, we have an option to go with a complete full SDN stack, where the BIOS in not absolutely a challenge or anything there's a huge throughput available. So from a performance point-of-view, we don't think, that's not an issue as of now. Even for the traditional storage, performance has never been an issue but the actual issue is how do we make the complete software available? How do we make the completely controlled from the software point-of-view. So there is where we found that that the CI use of very good challenging, you know, what do you call, user complete flexibility in how you want to define your data centers. >> Actual performance performance, that's really great. But I meant from the promises Nutanix made from a roadmap thing. This feature will be available on what day, you know, three months from now, a year from now. Were they actually able to deliver based on your own internal roadmap, and the capability you needed? >> Let me put it now this way. So if you look at the kind of investment that we have been making, in Nutanix and Lenovo, so you can be pretty much assured that these promises are kept 'cause otherwise we would not be making that. So Brazil was just a start that we are just going ahead. We are just looking at different workloads now. We have already looked at exchangeable close, which is currently in January and getting installed now. We have looked at video close one of the largest in Capgemini, we have 42 nodes of Nutanix running for 410,000 medias. So based out of Bangalore and Mumbai. So if we just, the performance, if it was not met I don't think we would have expanded the way we have expanded. >> Changed decisions. I think really ultimately, as Deepu mentioned, they started off with a pilot, as you mentioned, obviously in Brazil, and he's ended up taking this globally, which has been a great success story for both of our organizations. >> Right, could you give some more color on the partnership? >> Yeah sure, so I think Capgemini's a great global systems integrator for us. Both to sell to, obviously, as well as sell through, and they're doing some pretty amazing things with their customers and I think one of the great things that we're seeing in this particular instance, as we mentioned, Nutanix, leader in the hyper-converged space, and Deepu's made a call on them, based on their performance, and their basic feature set in their suite. And then ultimately Lenovo, who's number one customer service, number one reliability, number one quality in industry on independence, so you put 'em together, we ended up having a great relationship from that point, and then it's built confidence inside Capgemini now, for us to be going out to their customers and driving this solution out into their customer base. So it's once again, a great outcome for both of our organizations. >> Lenovo's been a traditional partner for us, it's not that new to us, so one of the major reasons is that they want a global reach and we have global data centers, and we have got global footprints, and it's a pretty good time. >> Deepu, how are you measuring the relationship? Any success metrics, from either the application deployments or you know, how do you measure internally and share that with your teams? >> So we have timelines on our consolidation, modernization, et cetera, as long as that is met, together with Lenovo, Nutanix, we are very good. >> So I'd love to hear about day two operations. What are some of the benefits you've seen from a people, resource talent, have you seen resources freed up to do other projects? What are some of the interesting projects that you've done as a result of freeing up time? >> So currently we are progressing through this particular journey, so this year we have a huge focus on the automation piece of the data center. So we are in the beginning stages of getting automation, automation in the sense that the normal proactive activates, all are given. So we are not talking about that, we are talking about the repetitive task, which is less part of the data center and that we have started. So basically we are looking around for any virtually reduction in our ticket volumes, our, you know, the normal work which is being done by the normal engineers so that the can be freed up for these kind of modernization projects. So that's what we are looking at, so let's see how it goes. >> Deepu, one of the things that we're talking about at this show is beyond just the HCI, it's cloud, even edge, what kind of futures do you see for Capgemini in general, and maybe with Nutanix and Lenovo relationship. >> As I said in the beginning, hybrid cloud was one of the requirements for choosing the correct partner for our data center modernization. So currently as we are beginning this part of the journey so moving the data seamlessly into the cloud is one of the key requirements of Capgemini. From an applications standpoint, from a visibility standpoint, et cetera, so we will be looking at which applications easy target for moving into the cloud, and we will be doing that and we believe that Nutanix, hybrid cloud technology will be able to help us in achieving that. >> And I think Stu, that's a really good point because I think what Deepu's just describing is effectively what we see happening in the industry everywhere. You know, we go back 20 years in the industry, a few of us have been around that long, and we remember like a homogeneous environment, everyone would say, I'm this vendor shop, they've got network administrators patching servers, when we're getting hardware put on site and customers are doing all of the integration on site themselves. That's just what the industry did back then. Now, as we see workloads changing it's a little bit like cloud. Three years ago everyone was like, I'm going to be this cloud vendor. That's it, that's my cloud vendor solution, right. However now it's become really acquiring the workload infrastructure and the software suites in line with customers' specific workload requirements, and so now, instead of going after the one cloud provider, now you've got a cloud provider in marketing, you've got a cloud provider in ERP, you've got a cloud provider in IT. So that's why this whole multi-cloud, hybrid cloud, type scenario's really starting to proliferate throughout the customer base. And you really find that, as Deepu just mentioned, they're starting, customers are really looking for how do they manage cloud, multiple clouds in multiple ways, with different workloads, and they're really going out and looking and exploring, how to best address that and I thing once again the Nutanix-Lenovo solution's fantastic for that. I mean you're going to see that proliferate more and more in the industry over the next couple of years. >> So one of the, sorry Stu, one of the comments throughout the show has been, you know what, and this is not a pick on Nutanix or anyone else, I just, both of you guys are not from North America or Western Europe, is that the focus, a lot of vendor's focus has been on Western Europe and America, from a cloud perspective. How do you feel that Nutanix relationship from both a customer and as a partner, has been, on expanding capability beyond North American and Western Europe clouds? >> Rod: Why don't you go first, Deepu. >> Yeah, so if you look at, traditional Amazon Azure, so we have their clouds which are already available in India. So we have been checking that now, we have been looking at various options for the biggest workloads. But predominantly, our predominant workloads have been on the European and the North American cloud for lots of reasons, because if you look at Amazon or Azure, they're coming recently into the Asian footprint with (mumbles) if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, but I mean I think we will get there. >> So I think from our perspective, we break the world into five different geographies. So China, Asia-Pacific, Europe, North America and South America. And when you look at our earnings this last quarter, I'm only about two weeks away from our next earnings so I can't say anything about Q1, but the Q4, calendar Q4, we grew about 17% year-on-year but we grew double-digit growth in every one of those geographies, consistently. So in Nutanix, with our HX solution, which is really what we're talking about today, my Asia-Pacific team is growing just as fast, if not actually a little bit faster, than my North America teams. So we see that this technology actually being a real world-wide phenomenon and it's really growing everywhere. Japan is fantastic, India's fantastic for me. Obviously Western Europe. Deepu's a great example, 'cause he's deploying this globally across all of the geographies and I think we're seeing a lot of our G2000 customers, really addressing that, that way. But we see a lot of local companies as well, driving it across the geographies. Asia-Pacific's a great example. >> So if you look at, again, from a CA Nutanix-Lenovo standpoint, we have been going evening everything out so we have recently done that on 16 nodes within Bangalore and Mumbai, so that's a pretty good story. >> Alright, well, Deepu George, thank you so much for joining us, Rod Lappin, always a pleasure to catch up with you. >> Thanks Stu, thanks Keith. >> For Keith Townsend, I'm Stu Miniman, we've got a full day of Day 2 coverage here of theCUBE and Nutanix .NEXT 2018, thanks so much for watching theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. (bright music)

(soothing music) >> Announcer: Live from the Javits Center in New York City, it's theCUBE. Covering Inforum 2017. Brought to you by Infor. (energetic music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of Inforum 2017. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, along with my cohost, Dave Vellante. We're joined by Debbie Krupitzer, she is the vice president at Capgemini based in San Francisco. Thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you for having me. >> It's your first time on theCUBE, so we're going to-- >> It is, I'm excited! >> It's going to be great. >> Great. >> It's going to be great. So, Capgemini has had a longstanding relationship with Infor but this year, things got a little more serious. So-- >> Debbie: It did! >> So tell us, give us a status update. >> I think we both saw the writing on the wall, which is around, my space is digital manufacturing, that's where I play, and they see it to. Right, so we see such a great opportunity around connected factory and enterprise asset management, and all these really good things that are happening in the space, and so it sort of naturally came together. So we've always worked with them, but we really saw an opportunity for this year to say, hey, this is an investment piece, we both have a lot of energy, a lot of passion around it, let's go make this happen. And so it's been super fun, lots of fun this week. >> AI has been a really big theme at this conference with the introduction of Coleman. Can you tell us a little bit about where Capgemini is putting its resources when it comes to artificial intelligence? >> Absolutely, I mean, we know it's the future. We know it's where it's at. And you know, I had a quote from Elon Musk, which was saying AI, they're taking over the world, robots are going to take over the world in less than about 45 years. I don't know if that's so much true, but what we are really focused on is the business value of AI, not in the sort of trend, or what's the hype of AI. Where can you practically use it? So for us, artificial intelligence could be consumer feedback, or it could be around machines, it could be where are we getting machines to talk to us, to tell us what's wrong? We see a ton of opportunity around this, and it's really exciting for us, but always with a pragmatic what's going to make us money, what's going to save us money, and our customers, that's what we're always focused on. >> So it's the business value. >> Always the business value. The technology hype is just the technology hype, and I think that's what we really love about this conference is that there's a practicality about it. So there's not this sort of, hey it's trendy, it's cool, let's just go do it. There's a lot of thought behind it, there's a lot of thought behind what we want to do, what we want to achieve, and what we want to invest in. And we see this as a big investment. >> So let's talk about people, process, and technology. On theCUBE, everybody always says technology's the easy part, and I think it's generally true. I think technology's generally well understood, there's a lot of open source stuff, pretty much everybody has access to generally the same technology, it's how they apply it, the processes they put behind it, and the people that really make the difference. Okay, so when you think about digital manufacturing, help us understand it, it's surely not my wheelhouse. You bring in the IT and the whole OT thing, you're bringing the IT and the operations technology worlds together, and those are worlds that have never really collided, so wonder if you could talk about that a little bit-- >> Debbie: I would love to. >> Some of the challenges that brings? >> Oh, and there's a lot! Right, so we call it the IT OT Convergence. So there's actually a name for it. So that's Operational Technology and Informational Technology, and you're right, the plant has always been its own kingdom. So whenever you think of manufacturing, these plants are like we are the kings, we do it the way we want, and they never really wanted IT involvement. But what we're finding is that the CFOs, the people who are spending the money, have already seen the value of IT in terms of Cloud, cost savings, enterprise, infrastructure. How do you apply those to the plant to get the savings, and how do you replicate it? So what we're finding is that there's always again, there's a cost factor, right? So they're going is there a way for us to leverage technologies across multiple plants where we can get those savings, versus plants just going and buying whatever they want. And that' what we're seeing as the big change. Now, you're always going to get a shift, 'cause our plant guys and girls, they're used to doing it the way they want. But the thing that we see is that we're not coming in and totally putting robots to replace these jobs. What we're coming in is making their jobs easier. We're making it more efficient. We're seeing ways to save them money. And so the plants get incented when they have outcomes where they save money, so they're really pretty interested in doing this too. >> So give us some examples of a robot working along side of someone on a factory floor. >> So, you know it's funny, but I'd say 80% of the companies we work with don't have robots. Robots are sort of a sexy cool thing that everybody thinks is out there, and they are out there and they're really cool, but normally with the robots its already highly processed, it's a highly structured environment, usually around high tech or the car companies. I'll tell you what's more fun for me, when they don't have anything, where it's still paper-based. That's more fun, because what you're doing is you're going in and showing them how you can add a sensor to a machine to give you information you've never had before. How can this tell us how to do something differently? Is there a process issue? And when you talked about technology always being the easy part, it really is. When we go into a factory, it's normally a people challenge, that's operator, whether the operator's not doing something correctly, or in the right sequence. It's process, is there a process challenge? The technology is normally the easy part. So for me, I'm that person who likes the really immature factory, 'cause that to me is where you make the most change. Somebody's already got robots, you're already doing cool stuff. I'm probably not going to show you too much. It's the ones where they have that ah-ha moment, where they go wow. >> And we've been hearing this, that a lot of this stuff is change management. So how, from Capgemini perspective, how do you approach these challenges? >> You want to get always executive buy-in, right? So it's when it's coming from the top, I think that always is really valuable. But for us, we're plant floor people. I mean, I say you got to go talk to these folks and make them understand why you're doing it and what you're doing. Because there's always fear, right? Fear of anything, fear it's going to take your job, or fear you're not going to have a job, and what we're saying is it's a reallocation. The fact is this, in our space we've got an aging workforce. And aging workforce's going away. And the Millennials don't want to work a factory floor. And the reason they don't want to work a factory floor, it's dirty or they don't think it's the kind of work they want to do. We're trying to modernize that. Use an iPad, get IoT, get technology. You're not working the plant floor, you're working a dashboard. You're looking at data, you're driving data decisions, and so we call it From Shop Floor to Top Floor. How can we drive that so our Millennials, the ones who really do want to be the guys to take, and girls, to be taking these jobs, how can we make it more exciting for them, and we think there's good opportunity for that. >> So it really is all about the data, and when you think about the factory floor, a lot of analog data. And when you talk about process, a lot of process that's changing as a result of that analog to digital. So could you talk about the data, the data architecture that you're seeing and what the discussion is around data, data value, and how to get the value, how to monetize data, not necessarily by selling data directly but how it contributes to revenue generation or cost cutting? >> Well, we say data is the new oil, but I always tell my clients it's new oil, but it's not refined oil, and you've got to refine it. And refining the oil or refining the data is finding the business value out of that data. And you're right, there's a lot of data out there. The questions we get from the manufacturers are, what data is valuable, what is not valuable, what do I need, what do I not need, what can I aggregate up? I think the most interesting thing, and I love stories, is that when you look at a line, you've got machine number one to machine number 10. And before they would never know that something that was happening on machine number one, even a small configuration or change in a widget was actually impacting machine number 10. They never had that before. Now with that data, we're taking the data off of those singular machines, we're putting it up into the Cloud, we're aggregating it, we're able to see these anomalies and go, wow, that's the reason why. We never had that before. So you'd have engineers that would go, it must be machine number 10 or it must be machine number nine, or we don't really know what's going on. Now we're able to trace that; that's great. >> So I wonder if you could share with us any insights you have around discussions going on around IP, and data ownership? Because imagine, hypothetically for example, you've got some kind of programmable logic controller, and the PLC manufacturer is collecting data because they're trying to predict the maintenance, or whatever it is, and then of course the factory is the whole system and they're collecting data. So who owns that data-- >> Debbie: Oh that's a good question. >> And what's that conversation? >> Well, I'm no lawyer and so I'm not going to get into it. So I think what you'd find is that it depends. And that's a consultant answer, but I'm going to say it depends. If you're talking about the machine data, you have bought machines that are from a manufacturer. The manufacturers would love to have that machine data, 'cause they want to know what's going on with their machines. You want to know what's going on with the machine on the floor, very specific use case, which is what's happening in my space. The manufacturers want to know what's going on in a general way, how do we make our product better, how our are customers using it? In my mind, a plant shouldn't mind about that. A manufacturer wants to get that data to make better product, faster to market, make it cheaper, easier to buy, great, take it. I think where you get challenges is when there's outcomes that are coming out of data that people are leveraging to resell as business models. I think that's where people go, but that's our proprietary customer information about how we do a specific process, or how we do something. I think that's where people get a little iffy. And I don't really see that happening so much. So much, right, and I get everybody is really scared about the Cloud. I think the interesting thing is they'll say, well we don't want all of our data, our proprietary data in the Cloud 'cause it's not secure, and what I want to tell 'em, it's more secure in the Cloud than it is at your plant. >> So that's, I'm less concerned about the security of the Cloud, maybe it's different and you got to do some extra work to figure it out. I'm more concerned with our clients around the other thing you were talking about. I'll ask you specifically. If I'm using some kind of AI and I'm developing a model using machine learning and I'm training that model, maybe it's my data, but the model, my data's informing that model. How do I know that that model is not, somehow that IP of mine is not going to end up at my competitors, and is that going into discussions and contracts and agreements? >> Absolutely it is, and I think what you'll find is a lot of vendors that are out there that are dealing with AI and data are having to set clauses up that say you will not use this data to feed into any of your algorithms, into your IP. Like do not take my data. 'Cause everyone thinks, what we do is special, and some of it may be, do not take that and learn from us. That's very specific in clauses and contracts that we're seeing. >> Is it kind of like the honor system, or is there, is there a digital way to track that? >> Yeah, I think what's getting interesting is we get the data, like the companies aren't dumb. They're hiring their own data scientists, they're not letting us go to external parties. They're saying we're going to hire our own data scientists, and we'll start segmenting the data for you. They're very clever, you know, business people are in business because they know how to make money. They're not dumb. So what they're doing is getting a whole new set of roles. They're hiring data scientists. They're hiring data architects. They're hiring people in that understand the data structures so that they can keep track of what's valuable and what's not, don't worry about it. So, I think that's a smart thing to do. Because it used to be pretty rogue. I mean, five years ago, people would be like, well I don't care if you take the data off my machine. I think people have gotten a lot more clever, and also seeing that some of the vendors are repurposing some of this data for their own profit. Nobody wants that, don't take my stuff and use it to profit yourself. >> And you were talking about earlier, just the idea of what's valuable data and what'd not valuable data, and we find we are in this deluge of data. And we don't even really know, you can't say for certain, that data is not valuable, so don't worry about it. >> Exactly, and I think that's the challenge we get is that everybody thinks it's like a pile of money. Like, that's money, don't get rid of that money. >> Rebecca: It's oil! >> Oil, don't get rid of that, right? But what we find is you're getting so much data, some of the data is really not as valuable. And I'll give an example. An on-off switch telling me the motor is running on a machine is not valuable, it doesn't matter. It matters to that company because they need to know that the machine is working, so what we want to do is segment data, and we want to be able to give the business value, or have a hypothesis around what that data is bringing us. And sometimes, I'll tell you, a lot of times a hypothesis from my business users is wrong. So they'll say, what we think of A and B is super valuable, and then we'll go in and like, actually it's not A and B. It's E, E is actually the data stream that actually has the most value for you, and this is why. And so that to me is a really fun part, 'cause they have to have that moment where they go, oh, well we were wrong about that. It wasn't, I say, you're not wrong, it's just different. So I think having that data and then understanding what you're holding on the edge, what you're putting on Cloud, what you're putting on print, what you're able to share just makes people smarter about what they've got. >> So the accounting industry doesn't have standards as to how to value data on a balance sheet. We know that. But are there off-balance sheet discussions going on that you're having with your clients in terms of helping them understand the value of their data, quantifying that value? Everybody talks about the data is the new oil, you got to be a data-driven company and all this commentary, but how do you turn that into actionable, tangible results? >> That's the hard part, right? So that's the meat of the problem. And I think what we do is we really have to deep dive with our clients to understand what's the business model, or what do they think is going on? Because we've had lots of byproduct data that's come off of certain things that they had, and we were like, this is actually a more interesting tangent here, which is a byproduct of that data that you've got. Have you guys thought about selling that? So we'll come in and come up with business models, and so Capgemini has got, we've got Cap Consulting, we have these great acquisitions that we've just made where they'll come in and we've got people who do that. Who say, this is a new business model, have you thought of a resale, or this is something that's very valuable. And we'll go in and deep dive, a lot of times it's just discovery. We don't know either. So we'll go in and say, okay, this looks interesting, have you thought about this, and just new ways, it's just new business models. >> Do you see organizations and are you helping organizations actually apply maybe conventional financial measures, whether it's NPV or enterprise value, and are they beginning to track that, and what can you share with us? >> It's so funny you said that 'cause I just, when I just was coming here and I had a lead, I had a hot lead but I had to leave and come and do this interview, and he was asking me, and I said, the one thing we do is value map your processes and your data. And it was a thing that intrigued him. He was like, how do you do that? How are you doing that? I'm like, well, what we're doing is actually, we take all of your data from a historical standpoint, and we can see what's going on historically. Now the interesting part is how do you go forward with that? And so what we're finding is that you look at this data and you say what's the value mapping in terms of where you make money? And that's different for every company, and so we work with our customers. And so literally what I do is plot here's this process, there might be 15 processes that are going on. Here's the data outcome of that process. Now you talk to me about the value in terms of where you guys make the most money. >> You know, that's interesting, because data has unique value for different processes, obviously, so you have to understand it's not fungible like a dollar bill. And so that's what you can do is share this video with your hot prospect. (laughter) >> Debbie: Exactly! >> Maybe start a deeper conversation. >> I did, I told him, I have to go but I'll be back, so hopefully he's still warm over there. But I think people don't realize that the value mapping that you do is really a standard value, like you staid, standard financial models, the net present value, all those things, ROI, all those things we've always traditionally done on every project we do the same exact thing with this. For around digital manufacturing, because what we want to do is optimize. We want to optimize on what's going to save you the most money or make you the most money. And it's really that simple. Does it save you money, does it make you money. >> So you're applying sort of conventional measures to data, mapping that to processes, and then driving business outcomes, and then quantifying that over a lifecycle. >> You got it, that's exactly it. So you gave away my secret, so now you're going to start a technology firm. >> So that's high level, sounds good, but it's not trivial to do that, you need expertise, you need the main expertise. >> You do, and every manufacturer is different, right? So I work in discrete and process manufacturing, very different, very different processes, very different ways. Process manufacturing has a little bit more complexity, not that discrete doesn't, but it's interesting because what we do is find different things for different industries too, right? Now, there's some comparables, like food and pharma. Food processing, pharma is very similar, and people don't realize that, but it's very similar. And so we're always making comparisons. Pharma's a little bit more regulated, I think that might scare people, right, 'cause they want their food to be really, it is regulated, but maybe not as regulated as your drugs. And so what we find is the hypothesis or use cases that we can leverage and repurpose across industries. And I can't tell you how many times I've been in an industry and I just had one, and it was automotive, and I gave them a consumer packaging use case where they looked at me like I was crazy. And they said, I don't get it. And I connected the dots for 'em. And I said, do you see where if you've got this in consumer packaging, what they're looking at the quality of the packaging from start to finish, and I gave them the, you know, I won't go into the details. But they had this, they just went, oh yeah. And so I think what we're finding is industries that used to be like, if you don't know automotive, if you don't know mining, you don't know consumer packaging-- >> Dave: So true. >> You don't know us, you don't know us. >> And that's changed. >> And that's changed. So what they're seeing is they're going, you know what, 'cause they're seeing like the Amazons, they're seeing these companies, you know Amazon just bought Whole Foods. What? And they didn't buy Whole Foods for the grocery, they bought them for the data. And so I say like, guys, think of this in a different way. You've got to look at other industries, and so we're getting that more and more. We'll bring them out to have discussions about innovation or what's new, cool technology, and I bring it from every sector. Now, most of the time they'll go, show me how that's applicable? And I'll show 'em, and they go, wow. We get it. >> That's a great observation. Because digital means data, and data means you can traverse industries in new ways, so I love that CPG example. You would think, what? But you're getting people to rethink. >> You really are, and they're seeing, they're like, you know, they've got to reinvent themselves. Companies are having to reinvent themselves to this digital age, and they're scared. And they're saying, we sell a commodity, what can we do differently? How are we going to survive? I don't want to be the Kodak, I don't want to be the Blockbuster, I don't want to be that company. And so we're constantly pushing our product, companies that go what are you doing different, how are you going to the next level, is it data, is it services? >> Dave: What business are you in? (laughter) Right, I mean. >> Exactly. >> Well everyone's a software company. >> It's causing people to rethink that, I mean it sort of, we're back to the what business are you really in question. Like we were twenty years ago. >> It really is, it just cycles, right? And I say everything cycles around, we're doing the same thing, we're just repackaging, call it something else. So we all do the same thing over and over. >> Well, but there are some differences. >> There are, of course, more technology, better technology, cheaper technology. I think is what I'm finding is that the price of sensors and the price of technology is going down, that it's becoming more affordable. So, what I used to hear from the manufacturers is like, well I can't afford that, we can't do that. 'Cause there're very lean margins in manufacturing, I mean there's a lot going on. And we're being able to show them, hey, it's not a ton of investment, this isn't like a 20 million dollar ERP. Small increments of money that show you how to get the save. >> Well, 20 years ago, you were purpose-building specific technology stacks for your customers, and today you're leveraging. Whether it's Cloud, a security layer, a data layer, you pick it and you're building on top of this digital matrix. And really focused on the business models, more so than the technology. >> It is, and that's what we're seeing. And I say that's why, to get back to the first question about OT IT Convergence, that's what my CFOs see. They go, we get it. We get it, now let's apply it to the plant, so let's go see how we can scale this. 'Cause you're talking anywhere from companies having 20 plants to 200 plants, that's a lot. And they want to see how they can repeat in scale, and so that's what we love about it. It's turning into a business conversation. It's not a technology conversation, which I love. >> Debbie, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you! >> You made it! >> I did it, yay! I got it, thank you so much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Dave Vellante, we will have more Inforum just after this. (rippling music) (rippling music)

>> Announcer: Live from New York, it's theCUBE covering Big Data New York City 2016. Brought to you by headline sponsors Cisco, IBM, Nvidia, and our ecosystem sponsors. Now, here are your hosts, Dave Vellante and Peter Burris. >> We're back. Goutham Belliappa is here. He's with Capgemini. He's the Big Data Integration and Analytics Leader at Capgemini. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. Happy to be here with you. >> So a lot going on this week at Big Data. You guys have one of the top SI's consultants in the world. What are you seeing as far as the transformation of organizations to become data driven? What are some of the drivers that you're seeing out there? >> It's a good question. So a couple of years ago, we started on this journey with Cloudera about four years ago. When we started this journey on LinkedIn, you saw the poster that said, "Big Data is like teenage sex - everybody talks about it, nobody does it." Right? The reality shifted considerably. So while the technology's evolved considerably over the last four years, the most important thing is most of our clients are feeling pressure from the disruptors in Silicon Valley. You see the AirBnb's and the Amazon's and the Google apply pressure's on traditional industries that didn't exist before. For example, a lot of our auto clients don't believe auto clients are the biggest threat. They believe Apple, and Google, and Amazon are the biggest threat. Right? Because what our clients are afraid of, the incumbents, the traditional companies are afraid of, is they don't want to become a commodity manufacturer of components for a software company. They don't want, for example, GM manufacturing a part that Apple is putting the wrapper on, selling and making the margin on. So, more and more tech is driving the industry to where GE made the announcement they no longer want to be known as an engine manufacturer, they want to be an IT company. >> Peter: Or a financial services firm. >> Or a financial services firm. And you see the same thing in pharma as well. We see the pharma companies don't want to be known as manufacturers of med devices, they want to own the service industry. Move up the value chain and secure the revenue stream. So that's what's changing the industry as a whole and then Big Data Central to the strategy of data-enabled transformation. >> So it's like the death, what was the article we saw yesterday? Who wrote that? "The Death of Tech". It was Rob Thomas, right? The death of tech companies is now the rebirth of... all companies are tech companies. >> All companies are tech companies and that's the future of all companies: to be a tech company and move from selling commodities to selling services and having a vested interest in the outcome that the clients receive at the end of the day. >> Yeah, I once wrote a piece many year ago that suggested that we would see more non-tech companies generate SAS and Cloud applications than tech companies themselves. And while it's still hasn't come true there's evidence on the horizon that it very well likely will be a major feature of how companies engage their customers through their own version of SAS or deploying their own Clouds for their own ecosystem. And you can go back, thirty years, thirty-five years and look at MAP/TOP for example and the promise of what it meant to define and deploy standards that could integrate whole industries around data. Hasn't happened, but we can see it actually happening on the horizon. What industry? I mean, you're still looking at things through an industry lenses, right? Where do you see it happening before it's happening elsewhere? >> So, the first place it happens naturally is tech because they're closest to it, right? To give you the classic example, I can go anywhere and buy an Office license today. I have to subscribe to Office, right? So, what it's done to Microsoft, it's changed the fundamentals of the balance sheet from selling perpetual licenses, getting revenue once and then having the prospect of not having a customer later, to selling it over a sustained period of time. So moving from one-time revenue hits to perpetual revenue. So tech is where it's starting off. And even in tech, we're actually pushing the boundaries by working some of our providers like Cloudera and some of the other providers out there to move from a perpetual license model to as-a-service model. So what this enables people like us to do is to offer as-a-service to our customers because our customers need to offer as-a-service to their end users as well, right? I gave you the example of GE because it's public knowledge. They want to move up the spectrum of not selling an engine but leasing an engine to an airplane manufacturer and then owning the services revenue on it, right? So when Delta, let's say, that's leasing the engine is no longer owning a commodity, they're becoming asset light, right? The companies like GE and other companies when they become tech, they need to become asset light as well, which means not being burdened by land, labor, and capital but, as they get paid for outcome, they want to pay for outcome as well. >> Somebody's got to own the asset eventually. This is not a game of musical chairs where the asset-owning music keeps playing and then it stops and somebody's got all the assets. >> Ghoutham: Exactly. >> So how do you see... the global sense of how organization, how is this going to get institutionalized? Are we just going to have a few companies with enormous assets and everybody else running software? How do you think it's going to play out? >> Good question. So Jeff Bezos was at a manufacturing company outside of Arland recently and he pointed at and antique generator sitting next to the plane and said, 'Back in the day, everybody had 'a generator sitting next to the 'company producing electricity.' But today we have a big distribution plan and we get it off the grid, right? So to your point, yes, we see the scale and the price reduction coming from a few companies owning those pieces of assets. For example, it's almost impossible to compete with the Amazon's and Google's of the world today because at the scale that they receive. And the customers get the benefit of that. Similarly, you'll see the software, right? So software, you see the software companies owning the assets and title and leasing it back to the customer. So to your point, yes, we're moving to a model where it's more scalable and the price efficiencies of them, they're passed on to the end consumer. >> Peter: So historically, in a more asset-oriented company, historically, if you take a look, for example, at Porter. Porter's competitive strategy. So Porter would say, 'Pick your industry' where an industry is a way of categorizing companies with similarly procured and deployed assets. Automobile had a collection of assets and hotelery had a collection of assets. So pick your industry based on your knowledge and what kind of returns you're likely to get. Pick your position in that industry and then decide what games you're going to play using the five-factor analysis you did. But it was all tied back to assets. So if the world's getting less asset-oriented, hard asset-oriented >> Ghoutham: Hard assets >> What does that do to competitive strategy? >> Good point. So the hard assets are getting commoditized. The value comes in what you can build on top of the hard assets, which is your IP, right? So the soft assets of IP and software is where the value's going to be. So there's a lot of pressure on hard-asset companies. You see many companies getting at the server market because they can't compete with the Amazon's and the Google's. They can wide-label and manufacture all their stuff. The differentiation is going to come in the software. That's the reason companies like GE and the other pharma companies and automobile companies want to become tech companies, because that's where the margin is, that's where the differentiation is. It's no longer in the tangible, hard-assets but it's in what you can do with them. >> Dave: Well, and it says data's going to be one of those differentiators. >> Yeah, yeah. >> And a big asset so what... Everybody in theory has to become data-driven, maybe in fact has to be- >> Data is their asset, is their differentiator. >> You've pointed out many times all this digitization is data. >> Peter: Well, yeah. >> Digital equals data. >> So our basic proposition is that increasingly the whole notion of being a digital business is about how you differentially use data to create and sustain customers. So let me build on that for a second and say that there's this term in economics known as "asset specificity" which essentially is the degree to which an asset is applied to a single or limited numbers of uses. Programmability reduces asset specificity so if we go back to the airline engine example, GE added programmability to an airplane engine and was able to turn it into a service. Uber was able to add programmability to a bunch of consumer cars and was able to turn it into a ride sharing capability. What does that say about the future of an industry-oriented approach to conducting business if I am now able to reconfigure my asset base very quickly and the industry's based on how my assets are reconfigured. What does that say about the future of industry? >> Ghoutham: So, in my opinion, I don't think the future of industry is going to change because you still going to have a specialization based on the domain you're selling to and the expertise that you have. >> Peter: So it's customer-focused industry definitions not asset-based industry definition. >> Ghoutham: The hard assets or going to get commoditized and get moved out to a few specialty players. But the differentiation is going to be on how you serve the customers and the type of customer that you serve. >> Dave: So what are the head winds you're seeing in terms of customers getting to this data nirvana? What are the challenges that they're facing? >> So, Peter Drucker. There's an attribute of Peter Drucker, regardless of who said it, 'Culture eats strategy for breakfast.' We work with retailers all the time who understand that they face an existential threat from Amazon, however their culture prevents them from being like Amazon. It prevents them from experimenting. It prevents them from failing fast. It prevents them from acting together. For example, a lot of customers want to have an OmniChannel strategy. It's a seamless commerce strategy but then they have a silo for the stores they have a silo for the call centers, they have a silo for the web, but they don't act together. So culture is one of the biggest barriers we see in enabling that journey. Tech, we know that tech works. Two years ago we're doing technical POC's. Today, we're not anymore. We know that tech works, right? So get over it. So it's a culture and the attitude and the ability to change how you go to market that's to me the biggest challenge. >> Peter: But isn't there also finance? Because hard assets still are associated with a rate of amortization, depreciation, and utilization. There's expertise and what not built up around that, and this becomes especially critical when you start thinking about the impedance mismatch between agile development and budgeting, for example. So how do you anticipate that not only culture has to change, but also the way we think about finance? Or is financing disciplines end up being a part of the culture? >> Ghoutham: So you're absolutely right. So, financing discipline has to be part of the culture. To give you an abstract example, back in the day when we did a data warehouse or a data project, we'd do a huge, let's say for lack of an argument, 10 million dollar project. Today we're doing 40, 50, 50k, 100k projects. So Agile has gone from fixed scope where you laid out a two-year project with an end in mind and by the time you achieve that end the requirements have changed and the business has moved on, to achieving small objectives. So we're consuming it in chunks. You're going from fixed scope to fixed budget. So I've got a certain allocation that I need to use and I prioritize it on a regular basis on how I want to consume that basis that I have. >> So it's almost a subscription? Are you going in basically almost subscription-basis? Going to a customer and saying, here's the outcome. We will achieve that outcome over a period of time. You'll sign up to achieve that outcome over a 12-month period and will consume that budget in 12-month increments? >> First and second, in any given period, you can re-prioritize the outcome that you want to achieve. During the journey for 12 months, if you realize something new, you have the flexibility to change. Let me take out this chunk of work and do something else so I have the flexibility. >> Peter: So you can redefine the outcomes? >> Yes. >> It's almost like, I don't know if you'd call it this, I'd be interested to know what you guys call it, but it's almost like a subscription-to-outcome business model. >> Ghoutham: Exactly. >> Dave: Service is a service. >> Ghoutham: We call it sprint as a service. >> Service is a service. >> We call it sprint as a service is our defined model of how to go to market around that is we know two sprints ahead what we're going to deliver. Everything else is indicative, right? Because not everything we do has to succeed. That's a mindset change that our customers need to realize. We believe the biggest reason clients fail is because failure is not an option. They put so much behind it, when they fail, it's catastrophic. >> Peter: Because careers fail- >> Yes >> Peter: And not the project fails. >> Exactly. >> Dave: You're not saying "failure equals fire" mentality. If that's the culture, then people refuse to fail and they end up failing. >> Until it's catastrophic. >> (Dave laughing) >> So I was having a conversation last week at Oracle OpenWorld when theCUBE was here, great show, and had a really good conversation with a competitor of yours who talked about how they were going to use machine-learning in the contracting process by sweeping up all kinds of data and that would help them actually define the characteristics of what they were going to deliver. How much work was going to take, how much labor, what other resources? And they were able to get rid of the 500 thousand to five million dollar part of the assessment or the assessment part of a deal, drive it down to 50 thousand dollars or less and in the process come up with contracts who are much more customer-friendly. What other types of changes are happening in the services business as we do a better job of packaging intellectual property whether it's this "service as a service" or "service subscription" or whatever you mentioned or even thinking about machine learning being applied to the contracting process. >> Dave: "Sprint as a service" >> That's correct. Sorry. Thank you. >> You've asked a number of questions so first thing >> I did. >> Let me talk about machine learning and human task automation. So one of the biggest things we're doing today is learning to understand and automate human tasks. One of the biggest things we've seen, supply chain companies for example, is they don't have enough planners, right? So you hire a bunch of planners. You have different variations and skills. So we're taking the top 5% of planners, automating what everybody else does and letting them handle exceptions. And workforce automation, in many of those areas, we're beginning to automate human tasks and letting the human handle exceptions that a machine cannot handle. So machine learning has becoming fundamental in everything, and not just contract negotiation, but actually enabling companies to scale in areas where they could never scale because they never had enough people to do it. We're not just doing it externally to our clients. One of the things we're doing internally is we don't have an Big Data developers so we're beginning to use machine learning to automate a lot of tasks that developers will do. Industrialize a lot of it so we can scale in our delivery approach as well. >> Peter: Excellent. >> Come back to this event. You guys are here, you're on the floor. We've been talking all week about, you know, Hadoop is kind of yesterday's news. >> Ghoutham: Yes, yes. >> What are you guys seeing? You got a big chunk of customers that said alright, we're going to invest in Hadoop. We have the skill sets. And then a big chunk of... I'm not going there. And now they're sort of looking at new ways. Whether it's Cloud, whether it's Spark. >> Peter: And a big chunk of customers will say I do want to go there, but I'm having problems getting there. >> Yeah, right. And I got some serious challenges. So what are you seeing there, and how is CapGemini helping them? >> So we did an analysis with Forrester and one thing we'll say that 100% of our clients are going to Hadoop. It's not 95%. So everybody's going to Hadoop in one way, shape, or form. Whether you go with the traditional distribution, go with an Amazon as your whatever, everybody's going to Hadoop in some way, shape, or form. To address the reluctance, we spoke about the Uberization of the industry, which is you have a contract, which is an outcome-based contract. So we go to our clients who have fears about moving to Hadoop and say, 'We'll take the risk'. Let's write an outcome-based contract to move you guys into the noob because you know you need to go there. You're afraid to go there so we'll take the risk, we'll shift the risk over to us and we'll move you onto Hadoop. The last piece is industrialization. So back two years ago, we designed code for every little thing that we needed to do. Today, we've automated a lot of our code generation from existing systems, from knowledge we've gained, including machine learning to we're able to mechanize a lot of the code. Frankly, we did it because we had a developer shortage. So we started industrializing a lot of our IPN, our assets, and our learnings, but this is also helping our customers move on to the new world. It's improved the quality of a delivery. It's improved the velocity of a delivery. It's reduced the price where we're much more competitive. To give you an example in the BPO space back in the day we did labor arbitrage. But more and more, like with our clients who use manual auditing, we're using machine learning to automate a lot of that. And that more than pays for the cost of Hadoop. So to answer your specific question, gone are the days of 'Hey, I want to get into Hadoop.' The question is what business value can I achieve? How fast can I achieve it, and if you're afraid, can I take the risk for you? >> And that business value, historically, if I can use that term on such a nascent industry, Has been... the ROI's been a Reduction on Investment. >> Ghoutham: Correct. I'm going to lower the cost of my enterprise data warehouse. >> Ghoutham: That was two years ago. >> Okay so what is it today? >> Today, it is 'How can I reduce your marketing span? 'How can I optimize your marketing span? 'How can I improve the accuracy 'of your supply chain planning?' So it's more in terms of directly delivering business value versus the cost reduction. Many of our clients say the cost reduction is irrelevant. Frankly, because the business case is so huge. To give you an example of one of our supply chain clients, their fill-rate for orders is 60% which means they're a big manufacturer, they're only to fill 60% of the orders that come through. That's because they're not able to plan where to deploy product and so on and so forth. So if you increase it by 5%, it's a 300 million dollar annual business case. My two million dollar data warehouse optimization, it's irrelevant. It's peanuts in a 300 million dollar annual business case. It's things like that that's helping machine learning and Hadoop evolve in the ecosystem. The cost-reduction play was just a way to slide the infrastructure in. You can do a lot more with it. >> And when you're selling to the CIO's and business leaders, that resonates. >> Ghoutham: Yeah. Absolutely. >> Great. We'll have to leave it there. Thanks very much for coming to theCUBE, Ghou. >> Ghoutham: My pleasure. My pleasure. >> Alright keep it right there everybody. We'll be back with our next guest. This is theCUBE. We're live at Big Data NYC. Be right back. (techno music)

>>live from San Francisco. It's the Cube covering Informatica World 2016. Brought to you by Informatica. Now here are your hosts John Furrier and Peter Burress. Okay. Welcome back, everyone. We are here live in San Francisco for Informatica World 2016. Exclusive coverage from Silicon Angle Media is the Cube. This is our flagship programme. We go out to the events and extract the signal to noise. I'm John from my co host, Peter Burst. We have tree conflict comedy Global Head of Data Management and Steve Jones, global vice president. Big data from Capt. Jeff and I insights and data. You. Good to see you again. You sure you're welcome back. Welcome to the Cube. Thank you. And you've got my name right? It was a tongue twister, but, uh, we were talking about big data before we started rolling and kind of like where we've come to talk about over the really big data. You look back only a few years ago. Go back five years, Duke movement to where it is now. The modernisation is certainly loud and clear, but it's just not about Hadoop anymore. There's a lot of operational challenges and also the total cost of owners who want to get your thoughts. What's the trends? What do you guys see as the big trends now relative to this modernisation of taking open source the next big day to the next level? >>I think part of the pieces were actually about to publish a report we've done within the massacre on exactly that question, Uh, particular and governance and how people are making it operational. We did a report recently with our captain consulting division around Operation Analytics. Really fascinating thing that found out was the two real interesting in governance, right? The age old thing on governance has been the business doesn't engage. Well, guess what we found when you look at big data programmes is when the big data programmes start to deliver value. Guess who wants to take them over business? Guess who then actually starts leading the governance efforts, the business. So suddenly, this piece where the history of sort of data management has been, you know, going you really care about quality and the business, to be honest, going? Yeah, we don't care that much. We're still using excel, um, to the stage of which you're delivering real analytical value those pieces are going through. It's something we've been on a long journey for. I mean, we talked the other day. 2011 was the first time at camp we published a white paper on on our learnings around Big Data and governance. Um, it's amazing. Five years ago, we were talking about actually how you do governance and big data because of some of our more, uh, sort of forward looking clients. But that shift and what we're finding in that the report is the fact that people are really looking to replace this substrate. It's absolutely not about just about Hadoop, but that's the foundation, right? And unlike sort of historical pieces where there hasn't really been a data foundation, there's been lots of data silos but not a data foundation. Companies are looking to move towards actual firm data foundations across their entire business. That's a huge leap for it organisations to make and in terms of its impact on, you know, MDM and data quality and pace of delivery. Um, and those are the pieces. >>So also talk about the trends outside the US, for instance, because now you have in the UK uh, talk about that because your clients have a global footprint. The governance then crosses over the boundaries, blurring if you will virtual. But you still have physical, uh, locations. Well, I am sort of the UK and based out of London, And, uh so I see that side of the pond more often than, uh, this side. But the trends are pretty similar. And what Steve said, in fact, we were joking about it yesterday and we said, It's not for the tweet, but maybe, you know, was a little bit more big data doesn't need data quality. And my other favorite statement is MDM is dead. Long live India. Both of them are relevant. Big data doesn't need data quality in the sense that you cleanse all your data and put it into a TD WR uh, or a data lake because you can't only part of it is data owned by you. The rest comes from external sources where it needs quality is building the context on top when the end user of the analysts have a view, and there, if you build the context, then even good data could turn too bad, because in a particular context. That data is no more relevant. But bad data can turn to good because you're bringing in the context. And there was this eggs example we were talking about. You know, you you run a marketing campaign and you have all these likes and tweets and everybody loved it. Somebody then said, Okay, how about how good is this campaign? That's great. We need more. How good is it in the context of sales? Guess what? When the campaign ran, there was no difference to your sales. So then this good data that you had on the marketing campaign has turned back just to the company. That was a wasted effort that marketing. So you need contextual quality, not pure data quality. You know, if you look at e t l. You transform you do data quality before you, Lord. Now you're talking of E l t. And that's where you need quality. You need the linkages, the references, this data changes the data, and real time has been the conversation earlier so far today, the context defines the quality quality. A data swamp could be a data, you know, clean and environment. I mean, one >>of the reasons why we should presented that we present my presentation That I did on Monday was on avoiding a data swamp. So we actually think. But what we say is you've already got it. The myth is that you don't have data swamp right today, which is Oh, we've got my perfect data warehouse and it's got a perfect schemer. Really? And what does your business use Excel spreadsheets? Where do they get the data from? Well, they get from S a p. They download this and we got a macro. Somebody wrote in 1998 which means we can't upgrade that despot desktop from office 97. Right? So that desktop is office 97 because it's the only one that has a supply chain spreadsheet on. So the reality is you have the spread. Have it today. I think to the point you said about the country difference. One of the things we've seen, I think from a sort of a culture difference between Europe and here in the U. S. Is the U. S. Has been very much the technology pioneer, right is well, you know, the Hadoop stuff. The sparks of all that technology push European companies are seeing a lot of have taken quite a while to get into the, uh the Hadoop marketplace, but particularly the larger manufacturers, Um and sort of I'd say the more robust, like pharmaceuticals and these large scale organisations are now going all in. But after thinking about it. So what I mean is is that we've seen sort of lots of POC is used to be, like, four or five years ago. People doing PhDs here in North America. They're very technically centric. And then people like Okay, >>Exactly. Whereas >>over in now, in Europe, we're seeing more people going. Okay, We know where we want to get, too, because we've seen all the technology. Now it works. We're gonna start with thinking about the governance and thinking about that. What's the right way to go about this? So I think from a timing perspective, the thing that was interesting we felt beginning of last year that we begin to see some earlier states. Larger programmes in Europe, Maybe towards the end of the reality was by the middle of the year we were seeing very, very large pieces. There was almost a switch that happened, but we've our return, this notion of governance because it's really important. And you've said it here today about 20 times the rules of data Governments have been written piecemeal over the past few decades. Uh, started off by saying, uh is which application owns what data? And is the data quality enough so that the application runs or not? Uh, then compliance kind of kicked in, and we utilised compliance related rules to write the new rules of data governance. What is data governance in the context of big data? And the reason I ask questions specifically and maybe put some bounds on it is we're trying to get to a point where the business puts a value on data trade data as an asset that has a value. And the only way we're gonna be able to do that is through governance rules to support it. So what does data governance mean in a big data context, I >>think, Yeah. So the value is really the impact, and I go back to a very simple analogy people, When you didn't have computers, you had your ledges. You locked it up in a safe and took the key home. So you protected who had access to your data? You then put it on PCs. But then you give them access with Loggins. Then you said, Well, I'll tell you what you can do with my data. That was the era of B I. Because you had reports all they could do was print a report. Now you've given them access to do whatever they want with data. Now, how do you know? First thing on the governance aspect is what are they doing with the data? Where did they get the data for which they used to come up with that? What is the exposure to your organisation if somebody has, you know, uh, traded around, they traded around with labour rates or, uh, you know, fix them or done something you're talking about. And then you work backwards, Arlene. Age. So now I need to know first thing what? Not just who accesses my data. And I need to know. What are they doing that I need to know where they got the data with it. >>Well, I think this is >>You don't know what they're when they're going to access it and what they're going to do with at any given time. But I >>think that's the thing is where we have the This is where the sort of contention comes in. Right. To be honest between the areas back to the value is from a data management data governance that those things are all true, right? We need to know those pieces. The other reality is that today how do you show the business, Actually that they value the pieces, which is ultimately the outcome. So the piece we're finding on the research and the research we're about to publish soon with Informatica is one of things it's really finding. Is that where when do you get the business to care about governance? And the answer is when you demonstrate an outcome which relies on having good governance. So if you do a set of analytics and you prove that this is going to improve the effectiveness, the bottom line, the top line or whatever, the firm and particularly Operational analytics customer analytics, where they're real measurable numbers, we can save you 6% on your global supply chain costs. But in order to do that, you need a single view of product and parts, which means you need to do a product. MDM Well, that's a very easy way to get the business engaging government, as opposed to we need to do product MDM What? >>We're going to 3 60 view of the customer. >>So you So we're still pricing the value of data based on the outcome? Absolutely. And then presumably at some point, there is some across all those different utilisation and that will become the true value of the data. Is that I think the piece, I'd say in terms of that, if we sum it up, it's sort of it becomes a challenge because ultimately the business pays. Right? So one of the things I like about the big data stuff and the programmes are doing these large scale companies is the ability to deliver value to an area. So what we call insight at the point of action, and that's the bit where I pay. So, yes, I could sum it up in Theoretically and the C I can say, Well, I'm delivering this much value, but it's at those points of action. And if you say to something right, I deliver you $2 million. It costs you $100,000. That's much better than we have to say in totality. This delivers you, you know, $2 billion and it costs you $20 million or $200 million. That's an abstract piece, whereas except when I'm thinking about investment BAC, because I need to be able to appropriate the right set of resources, financial and otherwise, to the data based not just on individual exploitations but across an entire range of applications. Tyre range of utilisation, right? I think I think so. But again, in terms of the ability to bill and charges that if I can, my total is the summation of the individuals. So that's why I worked with the CFO once you have the CIA was in the room, said the business case for their for one of their programmes, and CFO said, Well, if I had, it took all your business cases and adding together this company twice the size and cost nothing to run. So there's been a history of theoretical use cases. So what we're seeing, I think on the data and the outcome side is the fact that particular Operation Analytics they're absolutely quantifiable outcomes. So while then you can say? Well, yes, If you then add this up. We need to make an investment on based platform. The two things we're finding are because you can use these much more agile technologies. These projects don't take 12 months to deliver first value, so you can. And because the incremental cost of working in a lake environment is so much less, you know, I don't have a 12 month schema change problem. So that's one of the things we're seeing is the ability to say yes as a strategy. We're going to spend 20 million or whatever over the next five years on this. But every three months, I'm going to prove to you that I've delivered value back because one thing I've seen on data governance, sort of strategic programmes historically is 18 months in. What have you delivered? What have you done for me? Proves that it has value right that >>you've forgotten. And I think also what we're seeing with big data initiatives is the failed fast methodology like the drug trials and farmers. So what's your project? It's actually the sum of all the all the programmes you've run. And we were talking about apportioning uh the budget, whose budget? Because it's now being done by the individual businesses in their own areas. So there's no CF or sitting there and saying, Well, this is the budget I give I t. And this is how you apportion it. It's all at the point of the business and they find we'll do all these fail fast programmes and I've then hit one, which makes me big bucks. And I love this concept because essentially talking about the horizontal disruption, which is what cloud and data does just fantastic. And I'm sure this is driving a lot of client engagements for you guys. So I got to ask a question on that thread Jerry Held talked about earlier today. I want to ask the question. He made a comment, but alternative questions. You guys, he said. Most CFOs know where their assets are. When you ask him to go down, the legend they go, Oh, yeah, they asked. What's about data? Where the data assets. The question is, when you go talk to your clients, uh, what do they look at when they say data assets? Because you're bringing up in the notion of not inventory of data I'm sitting around whether it's dirty, clean, you can argue and things will happen. But when it gets put to use for a purpose, Peter says, data with a purpose that's this would keep on narrative. What is there a chief data officer like a CFO role that actually knows what's going on? And probably no. But how do you have the clients? They're just share some colour because this is now a new concept of who's tracking the asset value. >>And I think there's two bits and I'll start without it. And then if you talk specifically post an L, which I think is a great example of what happens with data when it becomes an asset, is the ability to understand the totality of data within any nontrivial organisation is basically zero because it's not just inside your firewalls. I'd also question the idea that CFOs know where all the assets are. I'm working with a very large manufacturer, and after they've sold it, they need to service it, and they can't tell you where every asset is because that information now lives within a client. So actually knowing where all of the assets they need to service are, they might know their physical plants and factories are. But some of these assets a pretty big things they don't know necessarily where they are on planet Earth. So the piece on data is really to the stage of because it's also external data, right? So really the piece for me about government and other ones Do I understand the relationships of these pieces in terms of the do I value data as an individual pieces because of what I can do with it? Sometimes the data itself is the value, But most of the time we're finding in terms of when people describe value, it's to the outcome that it's based upon. And that's something that's much easier to define than how much is my, uh, product master worth. Well, I can't really say that, but you know what? I can absolutely say that 6% reduction in my supply chain costs because I have a product master. But I think post and l is a great example of what happens when you go the next step on data >>because you're looking at addressed it. And actually, it's not just posting now. We were talking to another uh, male company. A postal company. Where? Data asset. Okay, my address is our data assets, but I have multiple addresses for one person, and what they wanted to offer was based on the value of the packages that you get delivered. They wanted to give you a priority or a qualification of the addresses. They said this is a more trustworthy address because anything about £50 this person gets it delivered there. This is a lot of mail. So do you consider the insurance or the value of the packages that you get delivered to be a data asset? Most people wouldn't. They would say, Yeah, the addresses a asset. That's the data asset. But there's a second part to it, which you don't even know. So the answer really is yes and no. And it all is contextual because in a particular context, you can see if I know where everybody lives. I know where everybody is and I have all the address. You almost got to look back after the outcome and kind of reverse track the data and say, OK, that stream. I >>would say that people who start with we've had 30 years of trying to say it's the data object that has the value, and it's never ever happened. As soon as we're starting talking about the outcome and then backtracking and going in order to this outcome, we needed addresses which historically issues that would have been the value. But actually it was It was that plus the analytics of prioritising them for risk that suddenly that's a lot more valuable. That outcome of you know, what this person tends to be here, this area people seem to see as lower risk. This is where I can therefore look at the work office for those people. It gives you more information about the >>notion of the data swamp turning into data quality because the context, Sri says, is really key. Because now, if you can move data to context in real time data in motion where people call these days the buzzword. But that's the value. When you when you when you stumble upon that, that's where you say, Well, I thought I had bad data. No, Actually, it's hanging around waiting to be used as potential energy. As you know, it's the same thing with questionable. They're moving from being a postal supplier to delivering packages. Now, you know they have a very short window to deliver packages. So just how do you get to a building? Do you have to go through the backyard? Do you have to call somebody to get it? Now that data becomes valuable because otherwise you know all their deliveries go off the radar screen, right? Because they just shot to schedule >>was going to say about the quality. Want a great example of qualities that we spend a lot of times say process data and manufacturing will clean it up before it goes in the reporting structure, which is great, and that gives you a really great operational reports. There's now an entire business of people doing the digital discovery of processes so they can use the bad data to discover what your processes are and where your operational processes are currently breaking down process. If I cleaned up the data, they wouldn't be able to do their jobs. And it's this fascinating stuff we're finding a lot with. The data science piece is its ability to get different value out of data, >>chemical reactions, alchemy. It's all the interactions of the data. This is interesting. And I want to ask you guys, I know we have a minute left, and I want to have you guys take a minute to explain to the audience Cap Gemini and how people how you engage with the customer, uh, and context to their progress. Where are your customers? On the progress bar of these kinds of Congress? Because we have a nice conversation. I'd love to do an hour for this. Go up. We can geek out. But reality is day to run a business, right? So and in the tier one system integrators like captain and I all have kind of different differentiation. What do you guys do differently with this area of your practise? How are you engaging with your customers? And where are they on the progress bar of Are they like while you're talking gibberish to me, are they on board? Where are they? >>I think I think we've got a bit of a man. We've been on this journey a lot longer than most. Like I say, 2011. We're talking actual data governance and big data. You don't talk about that if you haven't been doing it for a while. we were the first systems integrated and as we Cloudera pivotal with massive partner with homework. So most of what's interesting is when people talk about data lakes and some people are thinking that stuff new. We're talking about the problem of most of our clients are now looking at the problem of having We will have multiple data lakes for P. I reasons for operational efficiency reasons from budget reasons. Whatever it may be we're looking at, how do you collaborate beyond the firewall? So I'd say, Obviously, we've got a continuity of customers. But a lot of our customers are going beyond the stage at which they're worrying about big data within their four walls to the stage of how do I collaborate beyond my four walls? And this, for us, is the switch on governance and data, and what we do is is the difference between sort of capture announcement other ones is. So when's recess is the global MGM guy and Gold Data Management guy? He actually his team is in all of the countries, so he has P and l responsibility for that. When I have it for big data in the >>country, you're out implementing the value extraction >>were in multi. I mean, it's really at the stage of kicking tyres. We're at the stage >>behind the kicking tyres a long way back in 2000, 11 >>1,002,011. By now, sort >>of driving the Ferrari on the autobahn. You know, 90 miles an hour straight, narrow. It's a lot more work to do, right. There's always a lot more things keep changing and that's that's the best part >>of what we do next. And that's the point for us is the reason we're in this is that it's what's next and I think that people, the reason governments are changing fundamentally is this move towards global collaboration. So the more you look at health exchanges and all of these things, the more people collaborate outside the four walls. That for us, is the problem we want to solve next, which is why we're working on industrialising what we now consider the boring stuff which is building a data lake and doing the internals and ingestion in those pieces that were not interested in putting bodies on that. It's about how you solve the next problem. >>Stephen Pre, thank you so much for joining the Cuba because you're good to see you again. And welcome to the Cuban love nightclub. You made it, um, great to have you love to do it. Do this again and again. I love the context. I love that you guys are on this, you know, data quality at the right time. Really? Right message? Certainly we think certainly relevant. So thanks for sharing your insights on here. And And the data on the Cube live streaming from San Francisco. You're watching the Cuba right back. It's always fun to come back to the cube because

(bright music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to AWS re:Invent, here in wonderful Las Vegas, Nevada. We're theCUBE. I am Savannah Peterson. Joined with my co-host, Dave Vellante. Day four, you look great. Your voice has come back somehow. >> Yeah, a little bit. I don't know how. I took last night off. You guys, I know, were out partying all night, but - >> I don't know what you're talking about. (Dave laughing) >> Well, you were celebrating John's birthday. John Furrier's birthday today. >> Yes, happy birthday John! >> He's on his way to England. >> Yeah. >> To attend his nephew's wedding. Awesome family. And so good luck, John. I hope you feel better, he's got a little cold. >> I know, good luck to the newlyweds. I love this. I know we're both really excited for our next guest, so I'm going to bring out, Lena Smart from MongoDB. Thank you so much for being here. >> Thank you for having me. >> How's the show going for you? >> Good. It's been a long week. And I just, not much voice left, so. >> We'll be gentle on you. >> I'll give you what's left of it. >> All right, we'll take that. >> Okay. >> You had a fireside chat, at the show? >> Lena: I did. >> Can you tell us a little bit about that? >> So we were talking about the Rise, The developer is a platform. In this massive theater. I thought it would be like an intimate, you know, fireside chat. I keep believing them when they say to me come and do these talks, it'll be intimate. And you turn up and there's a stage and a theater and it's like, oh my god. But it was really interesting. It was well attended. Got some really good questions at the end as well. Lots of follow up, which was interesting. And it was really just about, you know, how we've brought together this developer platform that's got our integrated services. It's just what developers want, it gives them time to innovate and disrupt, rather than worry about the minutia of management. >> Savannah: Do the cool stuff. >> Exactly. >> Yeah, so you know Lena, it's funny that you're saying that oh wow, the lights came on and it was this big thing. When when we were at re:Inforced, Lena was on stage and it was so funny, Lena, you were self deprecating like making jokes about the audience. >> Savannah: (indistinct) >> It was hilarious. And so, but it was really endearing to the audience and so we were like - >> Lena: It was terrifying. >> You got huge props for that, I'll tell you. >> Absolutely terrifying. Because they told me I wouldn't see anyone. Because we did the rehearsal the day before, and they were like, it's just going to be like - >> Sometimes it just looks like blackness out there. >> Yeah, yeah. It wasn't, they lied. I could see eyeballs. It was terrifying. >> Would you rather know that going in though? Or is it better to be, is ignorance bliss in that moment? >> Ignorance is bliss. >> Yeah, yeah yeah. >> Good call Savannah, right? Yeah, just go. >> The older I get, the more I'm just, I'm on the ignorance is bliss train. I just, I don't need to know anything that's going to hurt my soul. >> Exactly. >> One of the things that you mentioned, and this has actually been a really frequent theme here on the show this week, is you said that this has been a transformative year for developers. >> Lena: Yeah. >> What did you mean by that? >> So I think developers are starting to come to the fore, if you like, the fore. And I'm not in any way being deprecating about developers 'cause I love them. >> Savannah: I think everyone here does. >> I was married to one, I live with one now. It's like, they follow me everywhere. They don't. But, I think they, this is my opinion obviously but I think that we're seeing more and more the value that developers bring to the table. They're not just code geeks anymore. They're not just code monkeys, you know, churning out lines and lines of code. Some of the most interesting discussions I've had this week have been with developers. And that's why I'm so pleased that our developer data platform is going to give these folks back time, so that they can go and innovate. And do super interesting things and do the next big thing. It was interesting, I was talking to Mary, our comms person earlier and she had said that Dave I guess, my boss, was on your show - >> Dave: Yeah, he was over here last night. >> Yeah. And he was saying that two thirds of the companies that had been mentioned so far, within the whole gamut of this conference use MongoDB. And so take that, extrapolate that, of all the developers >> Wow. >> who are there. I know, isn't that awesome? >> That's awesome. Congrats on that, that's like - >> Did I hear that right now? >> I know, I just had that moment. >> I know she just told me, I'm like, really? That's - >> That's so cool. >> 'Cause the first thing I thought of was then, oh my god, how many developers are we reaching then? 'Cause they're the ones. I mean, it's kind of interesting. So my job has kind of grown from, over the years, being the security geek in the back room that nobody talks to, to avoiding me in the lift, to I've got a seat at the table now. We meet with the board. And I think that I can see that that's where the developer mindset is moving towards. It's like, give us the right tools and we'll change your world. >> And let the human capital go back to doing the fun stuff and not just the maintenance stuff. >> And, but then you say that, you can't have everything automated. I get that automation is also the buzzword of the week. And I get that, trust me. Someone has to write the code to do the automation. >> Savannah: Right. >> So, so yeah, definitely give these people back time, so that they can work on ML, AI, choose your buzzword. You know, by giving people things like queriable encryption for example, you're going to free up a whole bunch of head space. They don't have to worry about their data being, you know harvested from memory or harvested while at rest or in motion. And it's like, okay, I don't have to worry about that now, let me go do something fun. >> How about the role of the developer as it relates to SecOps, right? They're being asked to do a lot. You and I talked about this at re:Inforce. You seem to have a pretty good handle on it. Like a lot of companies I think are struggling with it. I mean, the other thing you said said to me is you don't have a lack of talent at Mongo, right? 'Cause you're Mongo. But a lot of companies do. But a lot of the developers, you know we were just talking about this earlier with Capgemini, the developer metrics or the application development team's metrics might not be aligned with the CSO's metrics. How, what are you seeing there? What, how do you deal with it within Mongo? What do you advise your customers? >> So in terms of internal, I work very closely with our development group. So I work with Tara Hernandez, who's our new VP of developer productivity. And she and her team are very much interested in making developers more productive. That's her job. And so we get together because sometimes security can definitely be seen as a blocker. You know, funnily enough, I actually had a Slack that I had to respond to three seconds before I come on here. And it was like, help, we need some help getting this application through procurement, because blah, blah, blah. And it's weird the kind of change, the shift in mindset. Whereas before they might have gone to procurement or HR or someone to ask for this. Now they're coming to the CSO. 'Cause they know if I say yes, it'll go through. >> Talk about social engineering. >> Exactly. >> You were talking about - >> But turn it around though. If I say no, you know, I don't like to say no. I prefer to be the CSO that says yes, but. And so that's what we've done. We've definitely got that culture of ask, we'll tell you the risks, and then you can go away and be innovative and do what you need to do. And we basically do the same with our customers. Here's what you can do. Our application is secure out of the box. Here's how we can help you make it even more, you know, streamlined or bespoke to what you need. >> So mobile was a big inflection point, you know, I dunno, it seems like forever ago. >> 2007. >> 2007. Yeah, iPhone came out in 2007. >> You remember your first iPhone? >> Dave: Yeah. >> Yeah? Same. >> Yeah. It was pretty awesome, actually. >> Yeah, I do too. >> Yeah, I was on the train to Boston going up to see some friends at MIT on the consortium that I worked with. And I had, it was the wee one, 'member? But you thought it was massive. >> Oh, it felt - >> It felt big. And I remember I was sitting on the train to Boston it was like the Estella and there was these people, these two women sitting beside me. And they were all like glam, like you and unlike me. >> Dave: That's awesome. >> And they, you could see them like nudging each other. And I'm being like, I'm just sitting like this. >> You're chilling. >> Like please look at my phone, come on just look at it. Ask me about it. And eventually I'm like - >> You're baiting them. >> nonchalantly laid it on the table. And you know, I'm like, and they're like, is that an iPhone? And I'm like, yeah, you want to see it? >> I thought you'd never ask. >> I know. And I really played with it. And I showed them all the cool stuff, and they're like, oh we're going to buy iPhones. And so I should have probably worked for Apple, but I didn't. >> I was going to say, where was your referral kickback on that? Especially - >> It was a little like Tesla, right? When you first, we first saw Tesla, it was Ray Wong, you know, Ray? From Pasadena? >> It really was a moment and going from the Blackberry keyboard to that - >> He's like want to see my car? And I'm like oh yeah sure, what's the big deal? >> Yeah, then you see it and you're like, ooh. >> Yeah, that really was such a pivotal moment. >> Anyway, so we lost a track, 2007. >> Yeah, what were we talking about? 2007 mobile. >> Mobile. >> Key inflection point, is where you got us here. Thank you. >> I gotchu Dave, I gotchu. >> Bring us back here. My mind needs help right now. Day four. Okay, so - >> We're all getting here on day four, we're - >> I'm socially engineering you to end this, so I can go to bed and die quietly. That's what me and Mary are, we're counting down the minutes. >> Holy. >> That's so sick. >> You're breaking my heart right now. I love it. I'm with you, sis, I'm with you. >> So I dunno where I was, really where I was going with this, but, okay, there's - >> 2007. Three things happened. >> Another inflection point. Okay yeah, tell us what happened. But no, tell us that, but then - >> AWS, clones, 2006. >> Well 2006, 2007. Right, okay. >> 2007, the iPhone, the world blew up. So you've already got this platform ready to take all this data. >> Dave: Right. >> You've got this little slab of gorgeousness called the iPhone, ready to give you all that data. And then MongoDB pops up, it's like, woo-hoo. But what we could offer was, I mean back then was awesome, but it was, we knew that we would have to iterate and grow and grow and grow. So that was kind of the three things that came together in 2007. >> Yeah, and then Cloud came in big time, and now you've got this platform. So what's the next inflection point do you think? >> Oh... >> Good question, Dave. >> Don't even ask me that. >> I mean, is it Edge? Is it IOT? Is there another disruptor out there? >> I think it's going to be artificial intelligence. >> Dave: Is it AI? >> I mean I don't know enough about it to talk about it, to any level, so don't ask me any questions about it. >> This is like one of those ignorance is bliss moments. It feels right. >> Yeah. >> Well, does it scare you, from a security perspective? Or? >> Great question, Dave. >> Yeah, it scares me more from a humanity standpoint. Like - >> More than social scared you? 'Cause social was so benign when it started. >> Oh it was - >> You're like, oh - I remember, >> It was like a yearbook. I was on the Estella and we were - >> Shout out to Amtrak there. >> I was with, we were starting basically a wikibond, it was an open source. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Kind of, you know, technology community. And we saw these and we were like enamored of Facebook. And there were these two young kids on the train, and we were at 'em, we were picking the brain. Do you like Facebook? "I love Facebook." They're like "oh, Facebook's unbelievable." Now, kids today, "I hate Facebook," right? So, but social at the beginning it was kind of, like I say, benign and now everybody's like - >> Savannah: We didn't know what we were getting into. >> Right. >> I know. >> Exactly. >> Can you imagine if you could have seen into the future 20 years ago? Well first of all, we'd have all bought Facebook and Apple stock. >> Savannah: Right. >> And Tesla stock. But apart from, but yeah apart from that. >> Okay, so what about Quantum? Does that scare you at all? >> I think the only thing that scares me about Quantum is we have all this security in place today. And I'm not an expert in Quantum, but we have all this security in place that's securing what we have today. And my worry is, in 10 years, is it still going to be secure? 'Cause we're still going to be using that data in some way, shape, or form. And my question is to the quantum geniuses out there, what do we do in 10 years like to retrofit the stuff? >> Dave: Like a Y2K moment? >> Kind of. Although I think Y2K is coming in 2038, isn't it? When the Linux date flips. I'll be off the grid by then, I'll be living in Scotland. >> Somebody else's problem. >> Somebody else's problem. I'll be with the sheep in Glasgow, in Scotland. >> Y2K was a boondoggle for tech, right? >> What a farce. I mean, that whole - >> I worked in the power industry in Y2K. That was a nightmare. >> Dave: Oh I bet. >> Savannah: Oh my God. >> Yeah, 'cause we just assumed that the world was going to stop and there been no power, and we had nuclear power plants. And it's like holy moly. Yeah. >> More than moly. >> I was going to say, you did a good job holding that other word in. >> I think I was going to, in case my mom hears this. >> I grew up near Diablo Canyon in, in California. So you were, I mean we were legitimately worried that that exactly was going to happen. And what about the waste? And yeah it was chaos. We've covered a lot. >> Well, what does worry you? Like, it is culture? Is it - >> Why are you trying to freak her out? >> No, no, because it's a CSO, trying to get inside the CSO's head. >> You don't think I have enough to worry about? You want to keep piling on? >> Well if it's not Quantum, you know? Maybe it's spiders or like - >> Oh but I like spiders, well spiders are okay. I don't like bridges, that's my biggest fear. Bridges. >> Seriously? >> And I had to drive over the Tappan Zee bridge, which is one of the longest, for 17 years, every day, twice. The last time I drove over it, I was crying my heart out, and happy as anything. >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I've never driven over it since. Stay out of where? >> Stay out of Oakland. >> I'm staying out of anywhere that's got lots of water. 'Cause it'll have bridges. >> Savannah: Well it's good we're here in the desert. >> Exactly. So what scares me? Bridges, there you go. >> Yeah, right. What? >> Well wait a minute. So if I'm bridging technology, is that the scary stuff? >> Oh God, that was not - >> Was it really bad? >> It was really bad. >> Wow. Wow, the puns. >> There's a lot of seems in those bridges. >> It is lit on theCUBE A floor, we are all struggling. I'm curious because I've seen, your team is all over the place here on the show, of course. Your booth has been packed the whole time. >> Lena: Yes. >> The fingerprint. Talk to me about your shirt. >> So, this was designed by my team in house. It is the most wanted swag in the company, because only my security people wear it. So, we make it like, yeah, you could maybe have one, if this turns out well. >> I feel like we're on the right track. >> Dave: If it turns out well. >> Yeah, I just love it. It's so, it's just brilliant. I mean, it's the leaf, it's a fingerprint. It's just brilliant. >> That's why I wanted to call it out. You know, you see a lot of shirts, a lot of swag shirts. Some are really unfortunately sad, or not funny, >> They are. >> or they're just trying too hard. Now there's like, with this one, I thought oh I bet that's clever. >> Lena: It is very cool. Yes, I love it. >> I saw a good one yesterday. >> Yeah? >> We fix shit, 'member? >> Oh yeah, yeah. >> That was pretty good. >> I like when they're >> That's a pretty good one. >> just straightforward, like that, yeah yeah. >> But the only thing with this is when you're say in front of a green screen, you look as though you've got no tummy. >> A portal through your body. >> And so, when we did our first - >> That's a really good point, actually. >> Yeah, it's like the black hole to nothingless. And I'm like wow, that's my soul. >> I was just going to say, I don't want to see my soul like that. I don't want to know. >> But we had to do like, it was just when the pandemic first started, so we had to do our big presentation live announcement from home. And so they shipped us all this camera equipment for home and thank God my partner knows how that works, so he set it all up. And then he had me test with a green screen, and he's like, you have no tummy. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? He's like, come and see. It's like this, I dunno what it was. So I had to actually go upstairs and felt tip with a magic marker and make it black. >> Wow. >> So that was why I did for two hours on a Friday, yeah. >> Couldn't think of another alternative, huh? >> Well no, 'cause I'm myopic when it comes to marketing and I knew I had to keep the tshirt on, and I just did that. >> Yeah. >> In hindsight, yes I could have worn an "I Fix Shit" tshirt, but I don't think my husband would've been very happy. I secure shit? >> There you go, yeah. >> There you go. >> Over to you, Savannah. >> I was going to say, I got acquainted, I don't know if I can say this, but I'm going to say it 'cause we're here right now. I got acquainted with theCUBE, wearing a shirt that said "Unfuck Kubernetes," 'cause it was a marketing campaign that I was running for one of my clients at Kim Con last year. >> That's so good. >> Yeah, so - >> Oh my God. I'll give you one of these if you get me one of those. >> I can, we can do a swapskee. We can absolutely. >> We need a few edits on this film, on the file. >> Lena: Okay, this is nothing - >> We're fallin' off the wheel. Okay, on that note, I'm going to bring us to our challenge that we discussed, before we got started on this really diverse discussion that we have had in the last 15 minutes. We've covered everything from felt tip markers to nuclear power plants. >> To the darkness of my soul. >> To the darkness of all of our souls. >> All of our souls, yes. >> Which is perhaps a little too accurate, especially at this stage in the conference. You've obviously seen a lot Lena, and you've been rockin' it, I know John was in your suite up here, at at at the Venetian. What's your 30 second hot take? Most important story, coming out of the show or for you all at Mongo this year? >> Genuinely, it was when I learned that two-thirds of the customers that had been mentioned, here, are MongoDB customers. And that just exploded in my head. 'Cause now I'm thinking of all the numbers and the metrics and how we can use that. And I just think it's amazing, so. >> Yeah, congratulations on that. That's awesome. >> Yeah, I thought it was amazing. >> And it makes sense actually, 'cause Mongo so easy to use. We were talking about Tengen. >> We knew you when, I feel that's our like, we - >> Yeah, but it's true. And so, Mongo was just really easy to use. And people are like, ah, it doesn't scale. It's like, turns out it actually does scale. >> Lena: Turns out, it scales pretty well. >> Well Lena, without question, this is my favorite conversation of the show so far. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> Dave: Great to see you. >> It's always a pleasure. >> Dave: Thanks Lena. >> Thank you. >> And thank you all, tuning in live, for tolerating wherever we take these conversations. >> Dave: Whatever that was. >> I bet you weren't ready for this one, folks. We're at AWS re:Invent in Las Vegas, Nevada. With Dave Vellante, I'm Savannah Peterson. You're washing theCUBE, the leader for high tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, beautiful cloud community, and welcome back to AWS reInvent. It is day four here in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. My voice can feel it, clearly. I'm Savannah Peterson with my co-host Paul Gillin. Paul, how you doing? >> Doing fine, Savannah. >> Are your feet about where my voice is? >> Well, getting little rest here as we have back to back segments. >> Yeah, yeah, we'll keep you off those. Very excited about this next segment. We get to have a chat with one of our very favorite analysts, Keith Townsend. Welcome back to theCUBE. >> Savannah Page. I'm going to use your south names, Savannah Page. Thank you for having me, Paul. Good to see you again. It's been been too long since CubeCon Valencia. >> Valencia. >> Valencia. >> Well at that beautiful lisp, love that. Keith, how's the show been for you so far? >> It has been great. I tweeted it a couple of days ago. Amazon reInvent is back. >> Savannah: Whoo! Love that. >> 50, 60 thousand people, you know? After 40 thousand, I stop countin'. It has been an amazing show. I don't know if it's just the assignment of returning, but easily the best reInvent of the four that I've attended. >> Savannah: Love that. >> Paul: I love that we have you here because, you know, we tend to get anchored to these desks, and we don't really get a sense of what's going on out there. You've been spending the last four days traversing the floor and talking to people. What are you hearing? Are there any mega themes that are emerging? >> Keith: So, a couple of mega themes is... We were in the Allen session with Adam, and Adam bought up the idea of hybrid cloud. At the 2019 show, that would be unheard of. There's only one cloud, and that's the AWS cloud, when you're at the Amazon show. Booths, folks, I was at the VMware booth and there's a hybrid cloud sign session. People are talking about multicloud. Yes, we're at the AWS show, but the reality that most customers' environments are complex. Adam mentioned that it's hybrid today and more than likely to be hybrid in the future in Amazon, and the ecosystem has adjusted to that reality. >> Paul: Now, is that because they want sell more outposts? >> You know, outpost is definitely a part of the story, but it's a tactile realization that outposts alone won't get it. So, you know, from Todd Consulting, to Capgemini, to PWC, to many of the integrations on the show floor... I even saw company that's doing HP-UX in the cloud or on-prem. The reality is these, well, we've deemed these legacy systems aren't going anywhere. AWS announced the mainframe service last year for converting mainframe code into cloud workloads, and it's just not taking on the, I think, the way that the Amazon would like, and that's a reality that is too complex for all of it to run in the cloud. >> Paul: So it sounds like the strategy is to envelop and consume then if you have mainframe conversion services and HP-UX in the cloud, I mean, you're talking about serious legacy stuff there. >> Keith: You're talking about serious legacy stuff. They haven't de-emphasized their relationship with VMware. You know, hybrid is not a place, it is a operating model. So VMware cloud on AWS allows you to do both models concurrently if you have those applications that need layer two. You have these workloads that just don't... SAP just doesn't... Sorry, AWS, SAP in the cloud and EC2 just doesn't make financial sense. It's a reality. It's accepting of that and meeting customers where they're at. >> And all the collaboration, I mean, you've mentioned so many companies in that answer, and I think it's very interesting to see how much we're all going to have to work together to make the cloud its own operating system. Cloud as an OS came up on our last conversation here and I think it's absolutely fascinating. >> Keith: Yeah, cloud is the OS I think is a thing. This idea that I'm going to use the cloud as my base layer of abstraction. I've talked to a really interesting startup... Well actually it's a open source project cross plane of where they're taking that cloud model and now I can put my VMware vsphere, my AWS, GCP, et cetera, behind that and use that operating model to manage my overall infrastructure. So, the maturity of the market has fascinated me over the past year, year and a half. >> It really feels like we're at a new inflection point. I totally agree. I want to talk about something completely different. >> Keith: Okay. >> Because I know that we both did this challenge. So one of the things that's really inspiring quite frankly about being here at AWS reInvent, and I know you all at home don't have an opportunity to walk the floor and get the experience and get as many steps as Paul gets in, but there's a real emphasis on giving back. This community cares about giving back and AWS is doing a variety of different activations to donate to a variety of different charities. And there's a DJ booth. I've been joking. It kind of feels like you're arriving at a rave when you get to reInvent. And right next to that, there is a hydrate and help station with these reusable water bottles. This is actually firm. It's not one of those plastic ones that's going to end up in the recycled bin or the landfill. And every single time that you fill up your water bottle, AWS will donate $3 to help women in Kenya get access to water. One of the things that I found really fascinating about the activation is women in sub-Saharan Africa spend 16 million hours carrying water a day, which is a wild concept to think about, and water is heavy. Keith, my man, I know that you did the activation. They had you carrying two 20 pound jugs of water. >> Keith: For about 15 feet. It's not the... >> (laughs) >> 20 pound jugs of water, 20 gallons, whatever the amount is. It was extremely heavy. I'm a fairly sizeable guy. Six four, six five. >> You're in good shape, yeah. >> Keith: Couple of a hundred pounds. >> Yeah. >> Keith: And I could not imagine spending that many hours simply getting fresh water. We take it for granted. Every time I run the water in the sink, my family gets on me because I get on them when they leave the sink water. It's like my dad's left the light on. If you leave the water on in my house, you are going to hear it from me because, you know, things like this tickle in my mind like, wow, people walk that far. >> Savannah: That's your whole day. >> Just water, and that's probably not even enough water for the day. >> Paul: Yeah. We think of that as being, like, an 18th century phenomenon, but it's very much today in parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. >> I know, and we're so privileged. For me, it was just, we work in technology. Everyone here is pretty blessed, and to do that activation really got my head in the right space to think, wow I'm so lucky. The team here, the fabulous production team, can go refill my water bottle. I mean, so simple. They've also got a fitness activation going on. You can jump on a bike, a treadmill, and if you work out for five minutes, they donate $5 to Fred Hutch up in Seattle. And that was nice. I did a little cross-training in between segments yesterday and I just, I really love seeing that emphasis. None of this matters if we're not taking care of community. >> Yeah, I'm going to go out and google Fred Hutch, and just donate the five bucks. 'Cause I'm not, I'm not. >> (laughs) >> I'll run forever, but I'm not getting on a bike. >> This from a guy who did 100 5Ks in a row last year. >> Yeah. I did 100 5Ks in a row, and I'm not doing five minutes on a bike. That's it. That's crazy, right? >> I mean there is a treadmill And they have the little hands workout thing too if you want. >> About five minutes though. >> Savannah: I know. >> Like five minutes is way longer than what you think it is. >> I mean, it's true. I was up there in a dress in sequence. Hopefully, I didn't scar any anyone on the show floor yesterday. It's still toss up. >> I'm going to take us back to back. >> Take us back Paul. >> Back to what we were talking about. I want to know what you're hearing. So we've had a lot of people on this show, a lot of vendors on the show who have said AWS is our most important cloud partner, which would imply that AWS's lead is solidifying its lead and pulling away from the pack as the number one. Do you hear that as well? Or is that lip service? >> Keith: So I always think about AWS reInvent as the Amazon victory lap. This is where they come and just thumb their noses at all the other cloud providers and just show how far ahead they're are. Werner Vogels, CTO at Amazon's keynotes, so I hadn't watched it yet, but at that keynote, this is where they literally take the victory lap and say that we're going to expose what we did four or five years ago on stage, and what we did four or five years ago is ahead of every cloud provider with maybe the exception of GCP and they're maybe three years behind. So customers are overwhelmingly choosing Amazon for these reasons. Don't get me wrong, Corey Quinn, Gardner folks, really went at Adam yesterday about Amazon had three majors outages in December last year. AWS has way too many services that are disconnected, but from the pure capability, I talked to a born in the cloud data protection company who could repatriate their data protection and storage on-prem private data center, save money. Instead, they double down on Amazon. They're using, they modernize their application and they're reduced their cost by 60 to 70%. >> Massive. >> This is massive. AWS is keeping up with customers no matter where they're at on the spectrum. >> Savannah: I love that you use the term victory lap. We've had a lot of folks from AWS here up on the show this week, and a couple of them have said they live for this. I mean, and it's got to be pretty cool. You've got 70 thousand plus people obsessed with your product and so many different partners doing so many different things from the edge to hospital to the largest companies on earth to the Israeli Ministry of Defense we were just talking about earlier, so everybody needs the cloud. I feel like that's where we're at. >> Keith: Yeah, and the next step, I think the next level opportunity for AWS is to get to that analyst or that citizen developer, being able to enable the end user to use a lambda, use these data services to create new applications, and the meanwhile, there's folks on the show floor filling that gap that enable develop... the piece of owner, the piece of parlor owner, to create a web portal that compares his prices and solutions to other vendors in his area and adjust dynamically. You go into a restaurant now and there is no price menu. There's a QR code that Amazon is powering much of that dynamic relationship between the restaurateur, the customer, and even the menu and availability. It's just a wonderful time. >> I always ask for the print menu. I'm sorry. >> Yeah. You want the printed menu. >> Look down, my phone doesn't work. >> Gimme something I could shine my light on. >> I know you didn't have have a chance to look at Vogel's keynote yet, but I mean you mentioned citizen developer. One of the things they announced this morning was essentially a low code lambda interface. So you can plug, take your lamb dysfunctions and do drag and drop a connection between them. So they are going after that market. >> Keith: So I guess I'll take my victory lap because that was my prediction. That's where Amazon's next... >> Well done, Keith. >> Because Lambda is that thing when you look at what server list was and the name of the concept of being, not having to have to worry about servers in your application development, the logical next step, I won't take too much of a leap. That logical first step is, well, code less code. This is something that Kelsey Hightower has talked about a lot. Low code, no code, the ability to empower people without having these artificial barriers, learning how to code in a different language. This is the time where I can go to Valencia, it's pronounced, where I can go to Valencia and not speak Spanish and just have my phone. Why can't we do, at business value, for people who have amazing ideas and enable those amazing ideas before I have to stick a developer in between them and the system. >> Paul: Low-code market is growing 35% a year. It's not surprising, given the potential that's out there. >> And as a non-technical person, who works in technology, I've been waiting for this moment. So keep predicting this kind of thing, Keith. 'Cause hopefully it'll keep happening. Keith, I'm going to give you the challenge we've been giving all of our guests this week. >> Keith: Okay. >> And I know you're going to absolutely crush this. So we are looking for your 32nd Instagram real, sizzle hot take, biggest takeaway from this year's show. >> So 32nd Instagram, I'll even put it on TikTok. >> Savannah: Heck yeah. >> Hybrid cloud, hybrid infrastructure. This is way bigger than Amazon. Whether we're talking about Amazon, AWS, I mean AWS's solutions, Google Cloud, Azure, OCI, on-prem. Customers want it all. They want a way to manage it all, and they need the skill and tools to enable their not-so-growing work force to do it. That is, that's AWS reInvent 2019 to 2022. >> Absolutely nailed it. Keith Townsend, it is always such a joy to have you here on theCUBE. Thank you for joining us >> Savannah Page. Great to have you. Paul, you too. You're always a great co-host. >> (laughs) We co-hosted for three days. >> We've got a lot of love for each other here. And we have even more love for all of you tuning into our fabulous livestream from AWS reInvent Las Vegas, Nevada, with Paul Gillin. I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>> Hello, everybody. Welcome to VeeamON 2021. You're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage of this year's event. My name is Dave Vellante, and as the saying goes, you can go faster alone but further together, and that observation is most certainly true in the technology business, and with me to talk about the importance of partners and ecosystem expansion and leverage are Daniel Fried, who's the senior vice president for EMEA and worldwide channels and Veeam, and David Harvey who's the vice president of Strategic Global Alliances at Veeam. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. Come on inside. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Thanks so much. Thank you. >> So you're welcome. So Daniel, about 40 partners by my count did at VeeamON virtual this year. Wow. It's unfortunate we can't interact with them face to face, but part of the story here 25% ARR growth and partners, obviously big contributor there. Give us the update from your perspective. >> Well, yeah. So first of all, I think it's going to be much more than the 40 partners that are going to attend VeeamON, because it's a key event that we've had already for a number of years, and this one this year is going to be as huge as usual, even bigger, because it is all remote. So everybody can participate. Now going to the results of the company, it is entirely also due to the partners. All types of partners, because we are 100% partner-based. We are a travel company. So all our businesses go through the buffers to reach out to the end customers, all different types of partners. So I do thank very, very much all partners around the world, all types of partners, because they all participate to the success of Veeam software, and this fantastic 25% growth indeed. >> Yeah, so David that's pretty important when you send that message. I mean a lot of companies, a lot of tech companies, struggle with that. They have a heritage of direct sales, and they say, hey we're super partner friendly, and then they do a big reach around. You kind of clean that up from day zero, but maybe talk a little bit about your philosophy around partnering. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's been a core pillar, as you said Dave, of Veeam from day one, and we've been true to that message all the way through, and when you look at the rich ecosystem of the ProPartner Network that Daniel was talking about, and you also look at the way that we've embraced Alliances, not only from the technology integration point of view, but also within the go-to market position. It's just been a really rich experience for the Veeam field, the alliances and partner field, but more important for the customers, because they get the best of breed from both sides. They get peace of mind on supply chain, but fundamentally, and you touched on this point Dave, a lot of people talk about it in principle. We live it all day every day, and I think when you look at the rich experience that you're going to get from VeeamON, when you look at the fact that the Alliance partners have lent in as the premium sponsors. These are the biggest guys in the industry. It's just a testament to trust, and it's a testament to delivering value to the customers. >> How should we think about the sort of partner makeup, and I'm interested in particularly the perspective from EMEA, but I mean a number of the partners, the majority of the premier partners, for example, they're U.S.-based companies, but of course they have very strong presence around the world, and then of course within EMEA, Daniel, you've got a lot of local partners as well. How should we think about that makeup? The big whales, who account for, many, many tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars but as well the collective of the larger ecosystem. How should we think about that pyramid? >> Well, this is a fantastic question. I think that we have to go back into understanding what the role of partner is to reach out to the end customers, and because Veeam is selling to companies, which are very small ones, very small SMB customers all the way to the very large complex multinationals. We need partners who have these capabilities to address all those, and of course the number of companies around the world. It's hundreds of millions of them. To give you an idea, because of the partners, our coverage is more than a hundred countries. In other words, we sell to more than a hundred countries around the world, even in places where our Veeam presence, physical presence is not there. We need different types of partners depending on what is needed, what the customers are requesting, We talk about the popup neural network, but I would like to talk, to go even farther, and talk about an ecosystem, of business ecosystems, using the theme solutions and the Veeam technologies with the alliancers, with the STEM integrators, with the VAR, with the resellers, and with the service providers, with all different types of typologies partners, and it is not one unique way of doing businesses. So you've got huge companies, but you have a lot of small ones to be capable to sell to a mom and dad shop somewhere in the middle of the desert or somewhere around the world, but we also need to have competencies, because customers have requests that become more and more complex, because the world is becoming more and more complex from an IT perspective. So we need to have competencies, and this is what we try in this co-partner network software is to bring these competencies up to be capable through the partners to answer all the requests and all the needs of all the customers around the world. >> So, David, it's not just sort of generic. I mean obviously, as a 100% channel partner company, you're looking for volume and distribution, but as Daniel just said, there's competency. So what are some of the competencies that partners bring to the table? Maybe you have some examples that you can share. >> Yeah, absolutely. So if you look at a couple of different areas, what I would say is we look at this problems that customers are dealing with in two ways. One, they're dealing with the fact that they want a technology solution to something that they're dealing with today, and secondly, they want somebody to support them with a human workflow evolution that's going on with them today, and GSIs is a good example of that one. When you look at the work we're doing and the success we're having with the large global GSIs, what we're solving in that area is two things. Workplace optimization, huge topic at the moment, and secondly, the data center modernization, and what's happening as you go through that evolution is you're dovetailing together the workflows of their business. You're using data as a lifeblood to be able to be successful and relate to their share price, et cetera, but more importantly, you want to make sure that you're bringing into account both those sides. You can't just have a technology solution without an understanding of implementation, and you can't have a great concept without a solid solution to back that up. So that's where we dovetail together. The top alliances that are out there in the market with the top global systems integrators, and both of those combined solutions benefit everybody including the channel, but obviously more importantly, the customer, and I think when you look at that, the work we're doing with Accenture, with Capgemini, the work we're doing with guys like HPE and VMware and all these large thought leaders, that's where it's a really nice dovetail, and as we talked about before, because that's been the lifeblood of our organization from day one, it's a very harmonious experience focused on solving the customer pain. >> So I like that focus on solutions. I'm just thinking about workplace optimization. You think about remote work. I mean everybody's trying to figure out hybrid now. How do I get hybrid right, and of course you guys fit in. What's the right data protection model? Modernization. There's app modernization. Because of cloud, there's a rethink of how you protect data. Maybe it's additional layers, and then of course, I mean every time I look in the paper, there's another hit of ransomware or some cybersecurity attacks. You guys fit in there. There's this solution emphasis, which really dovetails nicely into the customer problem. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that, and the role that partners play and what role you play. >> The role that we play is I'm just here, and we complements response, cause it can be a very large extended answer, and with the role we play is I would say twofold. Just to try to be, to simplify as much as we can, as much as I can. One of them is to provide solutions, and this is number one. So Veeam is providing solutions to end customers through the partners. The partners, they have these competencies, which allow them to build solutions and services to answer the request and the needs of the customers. So this is the key thing. They generate the value add on top of our technologies, on top of our solutions, to meet what the customers request, and you're totally right, because we talked about the marketplace, we talked about a lot of things, but what is very important is we see more and more customers wanted to go to services. So not for themselves to manage the infrastructures, and their back up centers, and their back ups. They are everything which is needed to the security of the data, but to have it done by a potentially third party companies like the system integrators, like the cabin service providers, like all different types of companies, even some consultants giving advices on architectures, the neighborhoods, and all kinds of different services, which are built. I even had some partners that are now developing. We talk about containers more and more, and we have, sorry to be a bit technical here, but we have some partners of ours, obviously some larger ones, which are contributing what they call microservices, which is for this new generation of containers. So they are all developing services to meet the requests and the needs of their customers. There is a big focus at the end customers. So we provide the technology. They add value. >> Well, I don't think you ever have to apologize in theCUBE for talking tech. I mean you think about containers, and your acquisition of Kasten, the whole notion of microservices. Containers used to be ephemeral and stateless, and now they're becoming a fundamental application development platform, and they need protection. So I think that's an important area. We're going to dig into that in some other conversations in theCUBE. but your point, Daniel, about value add is critical. It used to be I call it box selling even though it's, the software's in a box, but it used to be okay I'm going to make some margin just reselling. Partners today want to add value. They just don't want to be a pass through, because they'll get disinter mediated. So that's important. I wonder if you guys could talk about some of the details of your partner programs. There's the ProPartner Network, and I'm very interested in the Veeam Universal License approach that you guys take. What kind of details can you share with us on those two things? >> Daniel, that's a good one for you. >> Right, okay. So what you call the Veeam Universal License, so this is part of the technology that we provide and the licensing that we provide. It's about recurring licensing model, which is totally agnostic. So in other words, it is the same types of licensers that customers can use for whether if they are hydrates, they go with an architecture, which goes to the heartbeat clouds, or any type of architecture or premise, so they can just move down action. So it's from one place to another place when they need it. So we give them the full flexibility with this licensing model to adapt to the new needs that they may have. So to influence that, they define an architecture, which is totally frozen, and then they cannot change it anymore. With us, with our technologies, with our licensing model, with our VUL licensing system, they have full flexibility, and this is a key differentiator for a lot of customers and obviously from our own competition. >> And my understanding is when you guys really started leaning into the ARR model, you actually were were pretty innovative in the way you kind of made that transparent, or irrelevant really, for your partner's sales channels. You guys set up front. We're going to... This is like no change. Go sell. We'll figure out the economics on the backend, and most organizations in your position don't do that. They try to micromanage the margin upfront, and it's sort of the finance guys running the spreadsheet or sort of determining the relationship as opposed to the relationship working backwards. Is that a correct inference on my part? I sort of got this from talking to some of your big partners and asked them, well, isn't that a real challenge when you shift to that model. They said no. Veeam just sort of made it all transparent to us and sort of aided at the backend or however you did that. >> So I think, Dave, that this is a very, very correct statement that you got from the partners, because it is not something which is new, and it is not only on this subscription licensing model What we always try to do with all partners is to have a consistent approach and a very transparent approach with the steps and move step by step to the next grade walls, to the next strategies, to the next ways of doing businesses with them. So the key thing to have a network of partners which works, which really develop and generates a good value add, it is the trust, and I think, I don't want to be too outspoken, but I think, and they can give us feedback, I think that we've succeeded year after year after year to build that trust with the partners, which means that we have the transparency. They just move along with the moves that we do, but our moves also come from them. So in other words, depending on what the end customers request, we help the partners to meet the requests of the end customers. So we help them develop more businesses. >> David, let me ask you something. So if you had 100$ to spend of resource, and you had to spend it on going deeper, sort of the existing partners or expanding the number of partners, and maybe even the quality of partners, and thinking about where IT is headed, Veeam's role in that, how do you allocate your time and your resources? >> Great question, and I think simple answer for me. You go deeper with what you have, and the reason for that is it's expensive, and it's about building trust, as Daniel said, and it's about making sure that the customer isn't caught up in the middle of it, and I think that's the really important part related to this as well. You said at the start of the conversation, Dave, with regards to the complexity, and the reality is there's multiple decisions going on right now. How do I adjust my infrastructure based on the needs of today? How do I look at the blend on hybrid cloud? What's going where, et cetera. How do I evolve into containers? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and I think when you go down that line, and you're presented with these titans of industry that we're looking at here with some of our premium alliances, et cetera, it takes a long time to make sure that you integrate. It takes a long time to make sure you'll go to market and pain-based statements are clear. It takes a long time to go through the trenches, to learn together so that the customer is the one that has choice, doesn't have to investigate the way that Veeam wants to do it or our alliance wants to do it or our partner wants to do it. It's about looking at the best solution for their pain, and I think from that point of view you can only do that with continual commitment. I mean we add to our program in all aspects, but you will see consistency. You'll see releases from day one of the company when we launched the product, with Alliances as an example. That consistency and investment is peace of mind. It's trust, but more important it's innovative, because you get to invest for multiple years moving forwards. So that ideally we can continue our philosophy of being just ahead of what the customer needs, while listening to them and working with their other parts of the IT infrastructure, because as you said from the start again, this is an ecosystem. This is not a singular component, and I think that's where it's really key to have a philosophy, which we have here in Veeam, which is double down with your friends, make sure you make it work, look to evolve as the market evolves with some extension, but you never forget where you came from. >> I like that answer cause it was something. It was kind of a loaded question, because when I talked to a lot of companies behind the scenes, one of their big frustrations is there's a push to get more, more, more, but in reality when they look at the productivity, it's like a snake swallowing a basketball. They got a few partners that are really productive, and then the rest, and they're spending all this time doing Barney press releases. I love you. You love me and dah, dah, dah, and nothing ever happens out of it. So when you approach a strategic partnership, why Veeam? So when you approach a strategic partnership, why Veeam? Pitch me on why I should spend my time with Veeam versus one of the many other competitors that are out there. >> 100%. I mean that's the great thing. We're programmed from a history point of view, and there's nothing better than when you're talking to a strategic partner, than to be able to say you've put your money where your mouth is. Secondly, that money is key. We invest heavily, and it is expensive. It's an expensive scenario. I mean our Alliances organization globally is almost 100 people, and it's a big investment position, because you've got to make sure that you've got the ability to balance out what both sides are looking for, and sometimes you do things that maybe aren't 100% in your best interest, but that's important to your partner and your alliance and vice versa, and so from that point of view, you've got history and proven position. You've got investment potential, and the capital to be able to build together, to move forward, and thirdly, it's about the execution, and that's not just your philosophy where I started. This is about the ability to turn concept into tangible, frankly benefit, which comes down to economics for both sides, and those three things together to me are the way that we've been so successful, in not only growing and maintaining our position, but also attracting new ones as we look to see the evolution of the IT market. Daniel, you may have a different view. >> No, no, no, no, no. No, no, I totally agree. I just would like to complement your part by two things. Two things are very much marketing related. We are number two now worldwide, as IDC mentioned it. So in other words, that means that customers like our technologies, our solutions. So partners are looking for making businesses with somebody who is trusted. Also we get customers, and number two, we have a big marketing machine, and that helps very, very, very much the business, through the partners all the way to the end customers. We always involve the buffers, always systematic. >> Sorry to interrupt. I saw some of that IDC data. You guys are number two worldwide, but am I correct that you're the number one, like pure play independent or am I missing something there? >> Number one. Yeah. Number one in EMEA. >> Right. So I always ask that, because a lot of times other people, it's like cloud washing. I could throw a bunch of stuff in my cloud numbers and say I'm number one in cloud, but when you talk about Veeam all your revenue comes from backup data protection. That's the pure play. We love the pure plays, because they're easier to understand, and even though you guys are a private company, you're more transparent than most private companies. So it's helpful as an analyst to really kind of gauge the progress. So, okay guys. Hey, we got to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming on and talking about the all important partner ecosystem. You guys have done a great job there. Congratulations, and I hear it from your partners and obviously the numbers prove it out. So great job. >> Thanks. Thanks for your time today. >> All right. You're very welcome, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE's continuous coverage of VeeamON 2021, the virtual edition. Keep it right there for more great content.

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Well, hi everybody, John Walls here on theCUBE as we continue our IBM Think initiative. And today talking with Clemens Reijnen who is the Global CTO Cloud and DevOps Leader at Capgemini. And the Clemens, thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. Good to see you today. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. >> Yeah, tell us a little bit about Capgemini, if you will, first off for our viewers at home who might not be familiar with your services. Tell us a little bit about that and maybe a little bit more about your specific responsibilities there. >> So who doesn't know Capgemini in this system in the greater world and the IT world as we lived on a stone. So Capgemini is a worldwide system integrated with offerings in all kinds of spaces and all areas there. My responsibility is mainly around cloud and DevOps and taking care of countries or delivery centers have the right knowledge around cloud and the right capabilities around DevOps. And to support our customers and with their journey to the cloud into a digital organization. >> Yeah. Everybody's talking about digital these days. >> Everybody yeah. >> And it's magical digital transformation that's occurring, that's been going on for quite some time. What does that look like to you? And when you start defining digital organizations and digital transformations what are the kinds of things that you're talking about with organizations in terms of that kind of migration path? >> Yeah. So it's quite interesting to just start discussion about how does a digital landscape looks like for an organization wants to start transforming to a digital organization. And then when you are looking at that I'm always talking to discretion with business capabilities. An organization wants to create business capabilities either to interact and engage with their workforce and to make them work in the most efficient way. And what they are using for that are all kinds of different digital channels. And those digital channels they can be a mobile app. I'm working with my mobile app to connect with my work. I'm calling, I'm using zoom, I'm using teams and that kind of stuff. We also using chatbots for IT devices. And that's what the normal workforce expect nowadays. All have to have all those digital channels to interact with the business. That's also on the other side, at the customer side and organizations want to engage and grow on the customer site and have their nice interaction there. And again, they are using those digital channels all the different digital channels, maybe IoT, maybe API to interact with those customers to bring them the engagement interaction they really want to have. And in that transformation part definitely they are looking at what kind of challenges I have with working with customers like this and working with my workforce. Now everybody's working from home challenges with maybe the connections and that kind of stuff. But they also started to leverage and that's where the transformation and migration start with their on-prem systems, their legacy systems to move those kinds of capabilities and enrich that with cloud native capabilities to all kinds of enterprise solutions like the ones from IBM for example, to expose that to their digital channels, to their organizations. And that's the landscape, how it looks like. And then we have the discussion with organizations. How do you want to engage with your customers? What kind of digital channels do you need? What are the business systems you have and how can we enrich them and expose them to the outside world with all the enterprise solutions around you. >> And when you talk about a process like this which sounds holistic, right? You're looking at, what do you have? Where do you want to go? What are your business needs? Which all makes great sense. But then all of a sudden you start hitting speed bumps along the way. There are always challenges in terms of deployments There are always challenges in terms of decisions and those things. So what are you hearing again from on the customer side about, what are my pain points? What are my headaches here as I know, I want to make this jump, but how do I get there? And I have these obstacles in my way. >> Yeah, definitely. And the ones I explained already which are underlooked for site and on the customer side. You want to have the engagements there you want to have interactions there. And then you have that whole digital landscape which comes with some interesting challenges. Then how do I implement this landscape in the right scalable way? How do I expose my data in such a way that it is secure? How do I leverage all the capabilities from the platforms I'm using? And how do I make all these moving parts consistent, compliant with the regulations I need to work towards to? How do I make it secure? So those are definitely big enterprise challenges like appliances, security and that kind of stuff but also technology challenges. How do I adopt those kinds of technologies? How do I make it scalable? How do I make it really an integrated solution on its own? So that my platform is not only working for the digital channels we know right now but they are also ready for the digital channels We don't know yet will start to come here. That's the biggest challenges there for me. >> Yeah. I want to get into that a little bit later too. Cause you raised a great point. Well, let's just jump right now. We know what the here now is but you just talked about building for the future building for a more expansive footprint or kinds of capabilities that frankly we're not even aware of right now. So how do you plan for that kind of flexibility that kind of agility when it's a bit unpredictable? >> Yeah. And that's what every organization tries to be agile, flexible, resilient and you need to build your system conform that. And well we normally start with you need to have a clear foundation and a foundation when, for example when you are using the cloud for it every organization is cloud for it. You want to have that foundation in such a way that those digital channels can connect really easy to it. And then the capabilities the business capabilities created are done by product teams product and feature teams are creating those kinds of capabilities on top of that cloud foundation. And in that foundation, you want to put everything in place. What makes it easy for those teams to focus on that business functionality on those business capabilities. You want to make it very easy for them to do it the right thing that I always love to say that that's what you want to put in your cloud foundation. And that's where you are harnessing your security. Every application with learning on the foundation has secure. You are embracing a standard way of working although not every DevOps teams like that they want to be organizing and that kind of stuff. But when you are having 50 or a 100 DevOps teams you'd want to have some kind of standardization and provide them a way. And again, the easy way should be the right way to provide them templates, provide them technologies so that they can really focus very quickly on those kinds of business capabilities. So the cloud foundation is the base that needs to be in place. >> Now, you've been doing this for a long time and the conversation used to be, shall we move to the cloud? Can we move to the cloud? Now it's about how fast can we move to the cloud? How much do we move to the cloud? So looking at that kind of the change in paradigm if you will, what are organizations having to consider in terms of the scale, the depth, the breadth of their offering now, because innovation and as you know, it can happen at a much faster pace than it could have just a very short time ago. >> Yeah. And then I'm reflecting again back to the easy thing should be the right thing. That's what you want to do for your DevOps. >> I love that concept. (laughs) >> And that's where you should focus on as an organization. For example, what we've put in place. We put a lot of standardization, a lot of knowledge in place in what we call in an Inner Source library. And in that Inner Source library, for example we put all kinds of strips, all kinds of templates all kinds of standardization for teams who want to deploy OpenShift on their platform or want to start working with certain cloud packs. That they can set it up very easily conforms the standards of your organization and start moving from there. And then in the cloud foundation, you have your cloud management and the IBM Cloud Manager because organizations are definitely going towards the hybrid scenarios, different organizational or units wants to start using different clouds in there. And also for the migration part you want to have that grow from there. And standardization, Inner Source and having those templates ready, it's key for organizations now to speed up and be ready to start juggling around with workloads now on any cloud where you want to and that's the idea. >> Sure. Now, so Red Hats involved in this she had IBM involved as well obviously your partnership working with them. Talk about that kind of merger of resources, if you will. And in terms of what the value proposition is to your clients at the end of the day to have that kind of firepower working in their behalf. >> Yeah. And that's for example, IBM is for us a very important partner. Definitely on the hybrid multi-cloud scenarios where we can leverage OpenShift on those kinds of platforms for our customers. And we created what I said, templates, scripts. We use the IBM garage projects for it to create deployments for our teams in a kind of self servicing way to deploy those OpenShift clusters on top of the cloud platform of their choice. And then for sure, with the multi-cloud manager from IBM we can manage that actually in the lending zone and that's actually the whole ID. And you want to give the flexibility and the speeds to your DevOps teams to be able to do the right thing is the easy thing. And then manage it from your cloud foundation so that they are comfortable that when they're putting the workloads in that whole multi hybrid cloud platform that it is managed, organized all in the right way. And that that's definitely where IBM Red Hat OpenShift comes in play. And because they have already such a great tool sets ready it really think DevOps. That's what I really like. And also with the migrations, it comes with a lot of DevOps capabilities in there not playing lift shift but also the modelisation immediately in there. And that's what I like about our partnership with IBM is just, they are DevOps in mind also. That's cool. >> Yeah. What about the speed here? Just in general, just about the, almost the pace of change and what's happening in that space cause it used to be these kinds of things took forever. It seemed like or evolutions, transitions were to take a long period of time. It's not the case anymore now that things are happening in relatively lightning speed. So when you're talking with an organization about the kinds of changes they could make and the speed at which they can do that. Marry those up for me and those conversations that you're having. And if I'm a CIO out there and I'm thinking about how am I going to flip this switch? Convince me right now, (Clemens laughing) What are the key factors? And how easy, how right will this be for me? >> So as a CIO, you want to have your scalable and your flexible organization probably at this moment, you're sitting with your on-prem system with probably a very large relational database with several components around there. And now you want to fuel those digital channels there. The great way with IBM with Red Hat is that we can deploy OpenShift container solutions everywhere and then starting to modernize those small components or at that big relational database. And we were at starting to do that, we can do that really at Lightspeed. And there are, we have a factory model up and running, where we can put in the application landscape of a customer and look at it and say, "Okay, this one is quite easy. We are running it to, or modernization street. And it runs into a container." And from there, you start to untangle actually the hair ball of your whole application landscape and starting to move those components. And you definitely want to prioritize them. And that's where you have discussions with the business, which is most valuable to move first and which one to move there. And that's actually what we put in place is the factory model to analyze an application landscape of a customer, having the discussions with those customers and then say, "Okay we are going to move these workloads first. Then we are going to analyze the count of these and then we are going to move these." And we really start rocking fast moving their workloads to the cloud and so that they can start and reach those digital channels you want to do it in half. >> Well, a great process. And I love your analogies by the way you say about hairball there. (Clemens and John laughing) I totally get it. Hey Clemens, thank you for the time today. I appreciate hearing about the Capgemini story and about your partnership with IBM. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> All right. So well, we have learned one thing the easy thing is the right thing and that's the Capgemini way of getting things done. You've been watching part of the IBM Think initiative here on theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of BizOps Manifesto Unveiled, brought to you by BizOps Coalition. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE for our ongoing coverage of the big unveil. It's the BizOps Manifesto Unveil and we're going to start that again. >> From the top. >> Three. >> Crew Member: Yeah, from the top. Little bleep bleep bleep, there we go. >> Manifesto. >> Crew Member: Second time's the charm, coming to you in five, four, three, two. >> Hey, welcome back, everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE coming to you from our Palo Alto studios today for a big, big reveal. We're excited to be here. It's the BizOps Manifesto Unveiling. Things have been in the works for a while and we're excited to have our next guest, one of the really the powers behind this whole effort and he's joining us from Boston. It's Serge Lucio, the Vice President and General Manager, Enterprise Software Division at Broadcom. Serge, great to see you. >> Good to see you, Jeff, Glad to be here. >> Absolutely. So, you've been in this business for a very long time, you've seen a lot of changes in technology. What is the BizOps Manifesto? What is this coalition all about? Why do we need this today in 2020? >> Yeah, so I've been in this business for close to 25 years, right? So, about 20 years ago, the Agile Manifesto was created. And the goal of the Agile Manifesto was really to address the uncertainty around software development and the inability to predict the effort to build software. And if you roll back kind of 20 years later and if you look at the current state of the industry, the Project Management Institute estimates that we're wasting about a million dollars every 20 seconds in digital transformation initiatives that do not deliver on business results. In fact, we recently surveyed a number of executives in partnership with Harvard Business Review and 77% of those executives think that one of the key challenges that they have is really at the collaboration between business and IT. And that's been kind of the case for almost 20 years now. So, the key challenge we're faced with is really that we need a new approach. And many of the players in the industry, including ourselves, have been using different terms, right? Some are talking about value stream management, some are talking about software delivery management. If you look at the Site Reliability Engineering movement, in many ways, it embodies a lot of these kind of concepts and principles. So, we believe that it became really imperative for us to crystallize around that one concept. And so, in many ways, the BizOps concept and the BizOps Manifesto are around bringing together a number of ideas which have been emerging in the last five years or so and defining the key values and principles to finally help these organizations truly transform and become digital businesses. And so, the hope is that by joining our forces and defining the key principles and values, we can help the industry, not just by providing them with support, but also the tools and consulting that is required for them to truly achieve the kind of transformation that everybody is seeking. >> Right, right. So, COVID, now, we're six months into it approximately, seven months into it, a lot of pain, a lot of bad stuff still happening, we've got two ways to go. But one of the things that on the positive side, right, and you seen all the memes in social media is a driver of digital transformation and a driver of change 'cause we had this light switch moment in the middle of March and there was no more planning, there was no more conversation, you suddenly got remote workforces, everybody's working from home and you got to go, right? So, the reliance on these tools increases dramatically. But I'm curious kind of short of the beginnings of this effort and short of kind of COVID which came along unexpectedly, I mean, what were those inhibitors 'cause we've been making software for a very long time, right? The software development community has adopted kind of rapid change and iterative delivery and sprints, what was holding back the connection with the business side to make sure that those investments were properly aligned with outcomes? >> Well, you have to understand that IT is kind of its own silos and traditionally, IT has been treated as a cost center within large organizations and not as a value center. And so as a result, kind of the traditional dynamic between IT and the business is basically one of kind of supplier up to kind of a business. And if you go back to I think Elon Musk a few years ago basically had these concepts of the machines to build the machines and he went as far as saying that the machines or the production line is actually the product. So, meaning that the core of the innovation is really about building kind of the engine to deliver on the value. And so, in many ways, we have missed on this shift from kind of IT becoming this kind of value center within the enterprises. And it's all about culture. Now, culture is the sum total of behaviors and the reality is that if you look at IT, especially in the last decade, with Agile, with DevOps, with hybrid infrastructures, it's way more volatile today than it was 10 years ago. And so, when you start to look at the velocity of the data, the volume of data, the variety of data to analyze the system, it's very challenging for IT to actually even understand and optimize its own processes, let alone to actually include business as kind of an integral part of a delivery chain. And so, it's both kind of a combination of culture, which is required, as well as tools, right? To be able to start to bring together all these data together. And then, given the volume, variety, velocity of the data, we have to apply some core technologies, which have only really truly emerged in the last five to 10 years around machine learning and analytics. And so, it's really kind of a combination of those things, which are coming together today to really help organizations kind of get to the next level. >> Right, right. So, let's talk about the manifesto. Let's talk about the coalition, the BizOps Coalition. I just like that you put down these really simple kind of straightforward core values. You guys have four core values that you're highlighting, business outcomes over individual projects and outputs, trust and collaboration over siloed teams and organizations, data driven decisions, what you just talked about, over opinions and judgment and learn to respond and pivot. I mean, Serge, these sounds like pretty basic stuff, right? I mean, isn't everyone working to these values already? And I think you touched on it, on culture, right? Trust and collaboration, data driven decisions. I mean, these are fundamental ways that people must run their business today or the person that's across the street that's doing it is going to knock them right off their block. >> Yeah, so that's very true. So, I'll mention another survey we did I think about six months ago. It was in partnership with an industry analyst. And we surveyed, again, a number of IT executives to understand how many were tracking business outcomes, how many of these software executives, IT executives were tracking business outcomes. And there were less than 15% of these executives who were actually tracking the outcomes of the software delivery. And you see that every day, right? So, in my own teams, for instance, we've been adopting a lot of these core principles in the last year or so. And we've uncovered that 16% of our resources were basically aligned around initiatives which were not strategic for us. I take another example. For instance, one of our customers in the airline industry uncovered, for instance, that a number of... That they had software issues that led to people searching for flights and not returning any kind of availability. And yet, the IT teams, whether it's operations or software development, were completely oblivious to that because they were completely blindsided to it. And so, the connectivity between the inwards metrics that IT is using, whether it's database uptime, cycle time or whatever metric we use in IT, are typically completely divorced from the business metrics. And so, at its core, it's really about starting to align the business metrics with the software delivery chain, right? This system which is really a core differentiator for these organizations. It's about connecting those two things and starting to infuse some of the Agile culture and principles that emerge from the software side into the business side. Of course, the Lean movement and other movements have started to change some of these dynamic on the business side. And so, I think this is the moment where we are starting to see kind of the imperative to transform now, COVID obviously has been a key driver for that. The technology is right to start to be able to weave data together and really kind of also the cultural shifts through Agile, through DevOps, through the SRE movement, through Lean business transformation. All these things are coming together and are really creating kind of conditions for the BizOps Manifesto to exist. So, Clayton Christensen, great Harvard Professor, "Innovator's Dilemma", still my all-time favorite business book, talks about how difficult it is for incumbents to react to disruptive change, right? Because they're always working on incremental change 'cause that's what their customers are asking for and there's a good ROI.' When you talk about companies not measuring the right thing, I mean, clearly, IT has some portion of their budget that has to go to keeping the lights on, right? That's always the case, but hopefully, that's an ever decreasing percentage of their total activity. So, what should people be measuring? I mean, what are kind of the new metrics in BizOps that drive people to be looking at the right things, measuring the right things and subsequently making the right decisions, investment decisions, on whether they should move project A along or project B? >> So, there are really two things, right? So, I think what you were talking about is portfolio management, investment management, right? And which is a key challenge, right? In my own experience, right? Driving strategy or a large scale kind of software organization for years, it's very difficult to even get kind of a base data as to who's doing what. I mean, some of our largest customers we're engaged with right now are simply trying to get a very simple answer, which is, how many people do I have in that specific initiative at any point in time and just tracking down information is extremely difficult. And again, back to the Project Management Institute, they have estimated that on average, IT organizations have anywhere between 10 to 20% of their resources focused on initiatives which are not strategically aligned. So, that's one dimension on portfolio management. I think the key aspect though, that's we're really keen on is really around kind of the alignment of a business metrics to the IT metrics. So, I'll use kind of two simple examples, right? And my background is around quality and I've always believed that fitness for purpose is really kind of a key philosophy, if you will. And so, if you start to think about quality as fitness for purpose, you start to look at it from a customer point of view, right? And fitness for purpose for a core banking application or mobile application are different, right? So, the definition of a business value that you're trying to achieve is different. And yet, if you look at our IT operations are operating, they were using kind of a same type of inward metrics, like a database uptime or a cycle time or what is my point velocity, right? And so, the challenge really is this inward facing metrics that the IT is using which are divorced from ultimately the outcome. And so, if I'm trying to build a core banking application, my core metric is likely going to be uptime, right? If I'm trying to build a mobile application or maybe a social mobile app, it's probably going to be engagement. And so, what you want is for everybody across IT to look at these metric and what are the metrics within the software delivery chain which ultimately contribute to that business metric? In some cases, cycle time may be completely irrelevant, right? Again, my core banking app, maybe I don't care about cycle time. And so, it's really about aligning those metrics and be able to start to differentiate. The key challenge you mentioned around the disruption that we see is or the investor's dilemma is really around the fact that many IT organizations are essentially applying the same approaches for innovation, right? For basically scrap work than they would apply to kind of other more traditional projects. And so, there's been a lot of talk about two-speed IT. And yes, it exists, but in reality, are really organizations truly differentiating how they operate their projects and products based on the outcomes that they're trying to achieve? And this is really where BizOps is trying to affect. >> I love that. Again, it doesn't seem like brain surgery, but focus on the outcomes, right? And it's horses for courses, as you said. This project, what you're measuring and how you define success isn't necessarily the same as on this other project. So, let's talk about some of the principles. We talked about the values, but I think it's interesting that the BizOps coalition just basically took the time to write these things down and they don't seem all that super insightful, but I guess you just got to get them down and have them on paper and have them in front of your face. But I want to talk about one of the key ones, which you just talked about, which is changing requirements, right? And working in a dynamic situation, which is really what's driven the software to change in software development because if you're in a game app and your competitor comes out with a new blue sword, you got to come out with a new blue sword. So, whether you had that on your Kanban wall or not. So, it's really this embracing of the speed of change and making that the rule, not the exception. I think that's a phenomenal one. And the other one you talked about is data, right? And that today's organizations generate more data than humans can process. So, informed decisions must be generated by machine learning and AI. And the big data thing with Hadoop started years ago, but we are seeing more and more that people are finally figuring it out, that it's not just big data and it's not even generic machine learning or artificial intelligence, but it's applying those particular data sets and that particular types of algorithms to a specific problem to your point, to try to actually reach an objective, whether that's increasing your average ticket or increasing your checkout rate with shopping carts that don't get left behind and these types of things. So, it's a really different way to think about the world in the good old days, probably when you guys started when we had big giant MRDs and PRDS and sat down and coded for two years and came out with a product release and hopefully, not too many patches subsequently to that. >> It's interesting, right? Again, back to one of these surveys that we did with about 600 IT executives. And we purposely designed those questions to be pretty open. And one of them was really around requirements. And it was really around kind of what is the best approach? What is your preferred approach towards requirements? And if I remember correctly, over 80% of the IT executives said that the best approach, their preferred approach, is for requirements to be completely defined before software development starts. So, let me pause there. We're 20 years after the Agile Manifesto, right? And for 80% of these IT executives to basically claim that the best approach is for requirements to be fully baked before software development starts, basically shows that we still have a very major issue. And again, our hypothesis in working with many organizations is that the key challenge is really the boundary between business and IT, which is still very much contract-based. If you look at the business side, they basically are expecting for IT to deliver on time on budget, right? But what is the incentive for IT to actually deliver on the business outcomes, right? How often is IT measured on the business outcomes and not on an SLA or on a budget type criteria. And so, that's really the fundamental shift that we really need to drive out as an industry. And, we talk about kind of this imperative for organizations to operate as one. And back to the the "Innovator's Dilemma", the key difference between these larger organization is really kind of a... If you look at the amount of capital investment that they can put into pretty much anything, why are they losing compared to startups? Why is it that more than 40% of personal loans today are issued, not by your traditional brick and mortar banks, but by startups? Well, the reason, yes, it's the traditional culture of doing incremental changes and not disrupting ourselves, which Christensen covered at length, but it's also the inability to really fundamentally change kind of the dynamic between business and IT and partner, right? To deliver on a specific business outcome. >> Right, I love that. That's a great summary and in fact, getting ready for this interview, I saw you mentioning another thing where the problem with the Agile development is that you're actually now getting more silos 'cause you have all these autonomous people working kind of independently. So, it's even a harder challenge for the business leaders, as you said, to know what's actually going on. But Serge, I want to close and talk about the coalition. So clearly, these are all great concepts. These are concepts you want to apply to your business every day. Why the coalition? Why take these concepts out to a broader audience, including your competition and the broader industry to say, "Hey, we as a group need to put a stamp of approval on these concepts, these values, these principles?" >> So first, I think we want everybody to realize that we are all talking about the same things, the same concepts. I think we're all from our own different vantage point realizing that things have to change. And again, back to whether it's value stream management or Site Reliability Engineering or BizOps, we're all kind of using slightly different languages. And so, I think one of the important aspects of BizOps is for us, all of us, whether we're talking about consulting, Agile transformation experts, whether we're talking about vendors, right? To provides kind of tools and technologies or these large enterprises to transform for all of us to basically have kind of a reference that lets us speak around kind of in a much more consistent way. The second aspect, to me, is for these concepts to start to be embraced, not just by us or vendors, system integrators, consulting firms, educators, thought leaders, but also for some of our own customers to start to become evangelists of their own in the industry. So, our objective with the coalition is to be pretty, pretty broad. And our hope is by starting to basically educate our joint customers or partners, that we can start to really foster these behaviors and start to really change some of dynamics. So, we're very pleased that if you look at some of the companies which have joined the manifesto, so we have vendors, such as Tasktop, or Appvance or PagerDuty, for instance, or even Planview, one of my direct competitors, but also thought leaders like Tom Davenport or Capgemini or smaller firms like Business Agility Institute or AgilityHealth. And so, our goal really is to start to bring together thought leaders, people who've been helping large organizations do digital transformation, vendors who are providing the technologies that many of these organizations use to deliver on this digital transformation and for all of us to start to provide the kind of education, support and tools that the industry needs. >> Yeah, that's great, Serge, and congratulations to you and the team. I know this has been going on for a while, putting all this together, getting people to sign on to the manifesto, putting the coalition together and finally today, getting to unveil it to the world in a little bit more of a public opportunity. So again, really good values, really simple principles, something that shouldn't have to be written down, but it's nice 'cause it is and now you can print it out and stick it on your wall. So, thank you for sharing the story and again, congrats to you and the team. >> Thank you, thanks, Jeff, appreciate it. >> My pleasure, all righty, Serge. If you want to learn more about the BizOps Manifesto, go to bizopsmanifesto.org, read it and you can sign it and you can stay here for more coverage on theCUBE of the BizOps Manifesto Unveiled. Thanks for watching, see you next time. (upbeat music)