(light music) (airy white noise rumbling) >> Hey everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas. It's theCUBE. We're here, day four of our coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. There's been about, we've heard, north of 55,000 folks here in person. We're seeing only a fraction of that but it's packed in the expo center. We're at the Venetian Expo, Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante. Dave, we've had such great conversations as we always do on theCUBE. With the AWS ecosystem, we're going to be talking with another partner on that ecosystem and what they're doing to innovate together next. >> Well, we know security is the number one topic on IT practitioners, mine, CIOs, CISOs. We also know that they don't have the bench strength, that's why they look to manage service providers, manage service security providers. It's a growing topic, we've talked about it. We talked about it at re:Inforce earlier this year. I think it was July, actually, and August, believe it or not, not everybody was at the Cape. It was pretty well attended conference and that's their security focus conference, exclusive on security. But there's a lot of security here too. >> Lot of security, we're going to be talking about that next. We have two guests from Capgemini joining us. Mike Wasielewski, the head of cloud security, and NextGen secure architectures, welcome Mike. Anne Saunders also joins us, the Director of Cybersecurity Technology Partnerships at Capgemini, welcome Anne. >> Thank you. >> Dave: Hey guys. >> So, day four of the show, how you feeling? >> Anne: Pretty good. >> Mike: It's a long show. >> It is a long, and it's still jamming in here. Normally on the last day, it dwindles down. Not here. >> No, the foot traffic around the booth and around the totality of this expo floor has been amazing, I think. >> It really has. Anne, I want to start with you. Capgemini making some moves in the waves in the cloud and cloud security spaces. Talk to us about what Cap's got going on there. >> Well, we actually have a variety of things going on. Very much partner driven. The SOC Essentials offering that Mike's going to talk about shortly is the kind of the starter offer where we're going to build from and build out from. SOC Essentials is definitely critical for establishing that foundation. A lot of good stuff coming along with partners. Since I manage the partners, I'm kind of keen on who we get involved with and how we work with them to build out value and focus on our overall cloud security strategy. Mike, you want to talk about SOC Essentials? >> Yeah, well, no, I mean, I think at Capgemini, we really say cybersecurity is part of our DNA and so as we look at what we do in the cloud, you'll find that security has always been an underpinning to a lot of what we deliver, whether it's on the DevSecOps services, migration services, stuff like that. But what we're really trying to do is be intentional about how we approach the security piece of the cloud in different ways, right? Traditional infrastructure, you mentioned the totality of security vendors here and at re:Inforce. We're really seeing that you have to approach it differently. So we're bringing together the right partners. We're using what's part of our DNA to really be able to drive the next generation of security inside those clouds for our clients and customers. So as Anne was talking about, we have a new service called the Capgemini Cloud SOC Essentials, and we've really brought our partners to bear, in this case Trend Micro, really bringing a lot of their intelligence and building off of what they do so that we can help customers. Services can be pretty expensive, right, when you go for the high end, or if you have to try to run one yourself, there's a lot of time, I think you mentioned earlier, right, the people's benches. It's really hard to have a really good cybersecurity people in those smaller businesses. So what we're trying to do is we're really trying to help companies, whether you're the really big buyers of the world or some of the smaller ones, right? We want to be able to give you the visibility and ability to deliver to your customers securely. So that's how we're approaching security now and we're cloud SOC Essentials, the new thing that we're announcing while we were here is really driving out of. >> When I came out of re:Invent, when you do these events, you get this Kool-Aid injection and after a while you're like hm, what did I learn? And one of the things that struck me in talking to people is you've got the shared responsibility model that the cloud has sort of created and I know there's complexities across cloud but let's just keep it at cloud generically for a moment. And then you've got the CISO, the AppDev, AppSecDev group is being asked to do a lot. They're kind of being dragged into security that's really not their wheelhouse and then you've got audit which is like the last line of defense. And so one of the things that struck me at re:Inforce is like, okay, Amazon, great job for their portion of the shared responsibility model but I didn't hear a lot in terms of making the CISO's life easier and I'm guessing that's where you guys come in. I wonder if you could talk about that trend, that conceptual layers that I just laid out and where you guys fit. >> Mike: Sure, so I think first and foremost, I always go back to a quote from, I think it's attributed to Peter Drucker, whether that's right or wrong, who knows? But culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? And I think what we've seen in our conversations with whether you're talking to the CISO, the application team, the AppDev team, wherever throughout the organization, we really see that culture is what's going to drive success or failure of security in the org, and so what we do is we really do bring that totality of perspective. We're not just cloud, not just security, not just AppDev. We can really bring across the totality of the Capgemini estate. So that when we go, and you're right, a CISO says, I'm having a hard time getting the app people to deliver what I need. If you just come from a security perspective, you're right, that's what's going to happen. So what we try to do is so, we've got a great DevSecOps service, for example in the cloud where we do that. We bring all the perspectives together, how do we align KPIs? That's a big problem, I think, for what you're seeing, making CISO's lives easier, is about making sure that the app team KPIs are aligned with the CISO's but also the CISO's KPIs are aligned with the app teams. And by doing that, we have had really great success in a number of organizations by giving them the tools then and the people on our side to be able to make those alignments at the business level, to drive the right business outcome, to drive the right security outcome, the right application outcome. That's where I think we've really come to play. >> Absolutely, and I will say from a partnering perspective, what's key in supporting that strategy is we will learn from our partners, we lean on our partners to understand what the trends they're seeing and where they're having an impact with regards to supporting the CISO and supporting the overall security strategy within a company. I mean, they're on the cutting edge. We do a lot to track their technology roadmaps. We do a lot to track how they build their buyer personas and what issues they're dealing with and what issues they're prepared to deal with regards to where they're investing and who's investing in them. A lot of strategy around which partner to bring in and support, how we're going to address the challenges, the CISO and the IT teams are having to kind of support that overall. Security is a part of everything, DNA kind of strategy. >> Yeah, do you have a favorite example, Anne, of a partner that came in with Capgemini, helped a customer really be able to do what Capgemini is doing and that is, have cybersecurity be actually part of their DNA when there's so many challenges, the skills gap. Any favorite example that really you think articulates how you're able to enable organizations to achieve just that? >> Anne: Well, actually the SOC Essentials offering that we're rolling out is a prime example of that. I mean, we work very, very closely with Trend on all fronts with regards to developing it. It's one of those completely collaborative from day one to going to the customer and that it's almost that seamless connectivity and just partnering at such a strategic level is a great example of how it's done right, and when it's done right, how successful it can be. >> Dave: Why Trend Micro? Because I mean, I'm sure you've seen, I think that's Optiv, has the eye test with all the tools and you talk to CISOs, they're like really trying to consolidate those tools. So I presume there's a portfolio play there, but tell us, tell the audience a little bit more about why Trend Micro and I mean your branding with them, why those guys? >> Well, it goes towards the technology, of course, and all the development they've done and their position within AWS and how they address assuring security for our clients who are moving onto and running their estates on AWS. There's such a long heritage with regards to their technology platform and what they've developed, that deep experience, that kind of the strength of the technology because of the longevity they've had and where they sit within their domain. I try to call partners out by their domain and their area of expertise is part of the reason, I mean. >> Yeah, I think another big part of it is Gartner is expecting, I think they published this out in the next three years, we expect to see another consolidation both inside of the enterprises as well as, I look back a couple years, when Palo Alto went on a very nice spending spree, right? And put together a lot of really great companies that built their Prisma platform. So what I think one of the reasons we picked Trend in this particular case is as we look forward for our customers and our clients, not just having point solutions, right? This isn't just about endpoint protection, this isn't just about security posture management. This is really who can take the totality of the customer's problems and deliver on the right outcomes from a single platform, and so when we look at companies like Trend, like Palo, some of the bigger partners for us, that's where we try to focus. They're definitely best in breed and we bring those to our customers too for certain things. But as we look to the future, I think really finding those partners that are going to be able to solve a swath of problems at the right price point for their customers, that is where I think we see the industry moving. >> Dave: And maybe be around as an independent company. Was that a factor as well? I mean, you see Thoma Bravo buying up all his hiring companies and right, so, and maybe they're trying to create something that could be competitive, but you're saying Trend Micros there, so. >> Well I think as Anne mentioned, the 30 year heritage, I think, of Trend Micro really driving this and I've done work with them in various past things. There's also a big part of just the people you like, the people that are good to work with, that are really trying to be customer obsessed, going back right, at an AWS event, the ones that get the cloud tend to be able to follow those Amazon LPs as well, right, just kind of naturally, and so I think when you look at the Trend Micros of the world, that's where that kind of cloud native piece comes out and I like working with that. >> In this environment, the macro environment, lets talk a bit, earning season, it's really mixed. I mean you're seeing some really good earnings, some mixed earnings, some good earnings with cautious guidance. So nobody really (indistinct), and it was for a period time there was a thinking that security was non-discretionary and it's clearly non-discretionary, but the CISO, she or he, doesn't have unlimited budgets, right? So what are you seeing in terms of how are customers dealing with this challenging macro environment? Is it through tools consolidation? Is that a play that's going on? What are you seeing in the customer base? >> Anne: I see ways, and we're working through this right now where we're actually weaving cybersecurity in at the very beginning of how we're designing offers across our entire offer portfolio, not just the cybersecurity business. So taking that approach in the long run will help contain costs and our hope, and we're already seeing it, is it's actually helping change the perception that security's that cost center and that final obstacle you have to get over and it's going to throw your margins off and all that sort of stuff. >> Dave: I like that, its at least is like a security cover charge. You're not getting in unless we do the security thing. >> Exactly, a security cover charge, that's what you should call it. >> Yeah. >> Like it. >> Another piece though, you mentioned earlier about making CISO's life easier, right? And I think, as Anne did a really absolutely true about building it in, not to the security stack but application developers, they want visibility they want observability, they want to do it right. They want CI/CD pipeline that can give them confidence in their security. So should the CISO have a budget issue, right? And they can't necessarily afford, but the application team as they're looking at what products they want to purchase, can I get a SaaS or a DaaS, right? The static or dynamic application security testing in my product up front and if the app team buys into that methodology, the CISO convinces them, yes, this is important. Now I've got two budgets to pull from, and in the end I end up with a cheaper, a lower cost of a service. So I think that's another way that we see with like DevSecOps and a few other services, that building in on day one that you mentioned. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> Getting both teams involved. >> Dave: That's interesting, Mike, because that's the alignment that you were talking about earlier in the KPIs and you're not a tech vendor saying, buy my product, you guys have deep consultancy backgrounds. >> Anne: And the customer appreciates that. >> Yeah. >> Anne: They see us as looking out for their best interest when we're trying to support them and help them and bringing it to the table at the very beginning as something that is there and we're conscientious of, just helps them in the long run and I think, they're seeing that, they appreciate that. >> Dave: Yeah, you can bring best practice around measurements, alignment, business process, stuff like that. Maybe even some industry expertise which you're not typically going to get from a product company. >> Well, one thing you just mentioned that I love talking about with Capgemini is the industry expertise, right? So when you look at systems integrators, there are a lot of really, really good ones. To say otherwise would be foolish. But Capgemini with our acquisition of Altran, a couple years ago, I think think it was, right? How many other GSIs or SIs are actually building silicon for IoT chips? So IoT's huge right now, the intelligent industry moving forward is going to drive a lot of those business outcomes that people are looking for. Who else can say we've built an autonomous vehicle, Capgemini can. Who can say that we've built the IoT devices from the ground up? We know not just how to integrate them into AWS, into the IoT services in the cloud, but to build and have that secure development for the firmware and all and that's where I think our customers really look to us as being those industry experts and being able to bring that totality of our business to bear for what they need to do to achieve their objectives to deliver to their customer. >> Dave: That's interesting. I mean, using silicon as a differentiator to drive a lot of business outcomes and security. >> Mike: Absolutely. >> I mean you see what Amazon's doing in silicon, Look at Apple. Look at what Tesla's doing with silicon. >> Dave: That's where you're seeing a lot of people start focusing 'cause not everybody can do it. >> Yeah. >> It's hard. >> Right. >> It's hard. >> And you'll see some interesting announcements from us and some interesting information and trends that we'll be driving because of where we're placed and what we have going around security and intelligent industry overall. We have a lot of investment going on there right now and again, from the partner perspective, it's an ecosystem of key partners that collectively work together to kind of create a seamless security posture for an intelligent industry initiative with these companies that we're working with. >> So last question, probably toughest question, and that's to give us a 30 second like elevator pitch or a billboard and I'm going to ask you, Anne, specifically about the SOC Essentials program powered by Trend Micro. Why should organizations look to that? >> Organizations should move to it or work with us on it because we have the expertise, we have the width and breadth to help them fill the gaps, be those eyes, be that team, the police behind it all, so to speak, and be the team behind them to make sure we're giving them the right information they need to actually act effectively on maintaining their security posture. >> Nice and then last question for you, Mike is that billboard, why should organizations in any industry work with Capgemini to help become an intelligent industrial player. >> Mike: Sure, so if you look at our board up top, right, we've got our tagline that says, "get the future you want." And that's what you're going to get with Capgemini. It's not just about selling a service, it's not just about what partners' right in reselling. We don't want that to be why you come to us. You, as a company have a vision and we will help you achieve that vision in a way that nobody else can because of our depth, because of the breadth that we have that's very hard to replicate. >> Awesome guys, that was great answers. Mike, Anne, thank you for spending some time with Dave and me on the program today talking about what's new with Capgemini. We'll be following this space. >> All right, thank you very much. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (gentle light music)

>> From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is the CUBE's coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020 happening digitally. We're connecting with Red Hat executives, thought leaders, practitioners, wherever they are around the globe, bringing them remotely into this online event. Happy to welcome back to the program, Joe Fernandez, who's the Vice President and General Manager, of Core Cloud Platforms with Red Hat. Joe, thanks so much for joining us. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. Glad to be here. >> All right, so, Joe, you know, Cloud, of course, has been a conversation we've been having for a lot of years. When I went to Red Hat Summit last year, when I went to IBM, I think last year, there was discussion of moving from kind of chapter one, if you will, to chapter two. Some of the labels that we put on things back in the early days, like Hybrid Cloud and Multicloud, they're coming into a little bit clearer picture. So, let's just give a high level, what you're seeing from your customers when they talk about Hybrid and Multicloud environment? What does that mean to your customers? And therefore, how is Red Hat meeting them where they are? >> Yeah, sure. So, Red Hat obviously, serves an enterprise customer base. And what we've seen in that customer base, really since the start and it's really informed our strategy, is the fact that all their applications aren't going to run in one place, right? So they're really employing a hybrid class strategy, a Hybrid and Multicloud strategy, that spans from their data centers out to a public cloud, typically then out to multiple public clouds as their cloud investments grow, as they move more applications. And now, even out to the edge for many of those customers. So that's the newest footprint that we're getting asked about. So really we think of that as the open hybrid cloud. And you know, our goal is really to provide a consistent platform for applications regardless of where they run across all those environments. >> Yeah. Let's get down a second on that because we've had consistency for quite a while. You look at the largest cloud provider out there, they said, hybrid environment, will give you the exact same hardware that we're running in the public cloud of your bet. You know, that in your environment. Of course, Red Hat's a software company. You've lived across lots of platforms. We're going to Red Hat's entire existence. So, you know, where is that consistency needed? How do you, well, think about how Red Hat does things? Maybe the same and a little different than some of the other players that are then, positioning and even repositioning their hybrid story over the last year or so. >> Yeah. So, we're really excited to see a lot of folks in the industry, including all the major public cloud providers are now talking about Hybrid and talking about these types of initiatives that we've been talking about for quite some time. But yeah, it's a little bit different when we talk about Hybrid Cloud, when we talk about Multicloud, we're talking about being able to run not just in one public cloud and then in a non-premise clients that mirrors that cloud. We're really talking about being able to run across multiple clouds. So having that consistency across, running in, say Amazon to Azure to Google, and then carrying that into your on-premise environments, whether that's on Bare Metal, on VMware, on OpenStack, and then, like I said, out out to the edge, right? So that consistency is important for people who are concerned about how their applications are going to operate in these different environments. Because otherwise, they'd have to manage those differences themselves. I'm speaking as part of Red Hat, right? This is what the company was built on, right? In 20 years ago, it was all about Linux bringing consistency for enterprise applications running across x86 hardware, right? So regardless of who your OEM vendor was, as long as you're building to the x86 standard and leveraging Linux as a base, Red Hat Enterprise Linux became that same consistent operating environment for applications, which is important for our software vendors, but also more importantly for customers themselves as they yep those apps into production. >> Yeah, I guess, you know, last question I have for kind of just the landscape out there. We've been talking for a number of years. When you talk to practitioners, they don't get caught up in the labels that we use in the industry. Do they have a cloud strategy? Yes, most companies have a cloud strategy, and if you ask them is their cloud strategy same today, as it was a quarter ago or a year ago, they say, of course not. Everything's changed. We know in today's day and age, what I was doing a month ago is probably very different from what I am doing today. So, I know you've got a survey that was done of enterprise users. I saw it when it came out a month ago. And, you know, some good data in there. So, you know, where are we? And what data do you have to share with us on kind of the customer adoption with (mumbles). >> Yeah, so I think, you know, we put out a survey not too long ago and we started as, I think, over 60% of customers were adopting a hybrid cloud strategy exactly as I described. Thinking about their applications in terms of, in an environment that spans multiple cloud infrastructures, as well as on-premise footprints. And then, you know, going beyond that, we think that number will grow based on what we saw in that survey. That just mirrors the conversations that I've had with customers, that many of us here at Red Hat have been having with those same customers over the years. Because everybody's in a different spot in terms of their transformation efforts, in terms of their adoption of cloud technologies and what it means for their business. So we need to meet customers where they're at, understand that everybody's at a different spot and then make sure that we can help them make that transition. And it's really an evolution, as opposed to , I think, some people in the past might've thought of as a revolution where all the data centers are going to shut down and everything's going to move all at once. And so helping customers evolve. And that transition is really what Red Hat is all about. >> Yeah. And, so often, Joe, when I talk to some of the vendors out there, when you talk about Hybrid, you talk about Multicloud, it's talking about something you mentioned, it's a box, it's a place, it's, you know, the infrastructure discussion. But when I've been having conversations with a lot of your peers of these interviews for Red Hat Summit. We know that, it's the organization and it's the applications that are hugely important as these changes go and happen. So talk a little bit about that. What's happening to the organization? How are you helping the infrastructure team keep up and the app dev team move forward? >> Yeah, so first, I'll start with, that on the technology side, right? One of the things that that has enabled this type of consistency and portability has been sort of the advent of Linux containers as a standard packaging format that can span across all these different (mumbles), right? So we know that Linux runs in all these different footprints and Linux containers, as a portable packaging format, enables that. And then Kubernetes enables customers to orchestrate containers at scale. So that's really what OpenShift is focused on, is delivering an enterprise Kubernetes platform. Again, spanning all these environments that leverages container-based packaging, provides enterprise Kubernetes orchestration and management, to manage in all those environments. What that then also does on the people front is bring infrastructure and operations teams together, right? Because Kubernetes containers represents the agility for both sides, right? Or application developers, it represents the ability to pay their application and all their dependencies. And know that when they run it in one environment, it will be consistent with how it runs in other environments. So eliminating that problem of, works on my machine, but it doesn't work, you know, in prod or what have you. So it brings consistency for developers. Infrastructure teams, it gives them the ability to basically make decisions around where the best places to run these applications without having to think about that from a technology perspective, but really from things that should matter more, like cost and convenience to customers and performance and so forth. So, I think we see those teams coming together. That being said, it is an evolution in people and process and culture. So we've done a lot of work. We launched a global transformation office. We had previously launched a Red Hat open innovation labs and have done a lot of work with our consulting services and our partners as well, to help with, sort of, people in process evolutions that need to occur to adopt these types of technologies as well as, to move towards a more cloud native approach. >> All right. So Joe, what one of the announcements that made it the show, it is talking about how OpenShift is working with virtualization. So, I think back to the earliest container days, there was a discussion of, "oh, you know, Docker and containers, "it kills VM." Or you know, Cloud of course. Some Cloud services run on VMs, other run on containers, they're serverless. So there's a lot of confusion out there as to. >> Yep. >> What happened, we know in IT, no technology ever dies, everything's always additive. It's figuring out the right solutions and the right bet. So, help us understand what Red Hat is doing when it comes to virtualization in OpenShift and Kubernetes and, how is your approach different than some of what we've already seen in the marketplace? >> Yeah, so definitely we've seen just explosive adoption of containers technology, right? Which has driven the OpenShift business and Red Hat's business overall. So, we expect that to continue, right? More applications moving towards that container-based, packaging and deployment model and leveraging Kubernetes and OpenShift to manage those environments. That being said, as you mentioned, virtualization has been around for a really long time, right? And, predominantly, most applications, today, are running virtualized. And so some of them have made the transition to containers or were built a container native from the start. But many more are still running in VM based environments and may never make that switch. So, what we were looking at is, how do we manage this sort of hybrid environment from the application perspective where you have some applications running in containers, other applications running in VMs? We have platforms like Red Hat, OpenStack, Red Hat Virtualization that leveraged the KVM hypervisor and Red Hat Enterprise Linux to serve apps running in a VM based environment. What we did with Kubernetes is, instead, how could we innovate to have convergence on the orchestration and management fund? And we leveraged the fact that, KVM, you know, a chosen hypervisor, is actually a Linux process that can itself be containerized. And so by running the hypervisor in a container, we can then span VMs that could be managed on that same platform as the containers run. So what you have in OpenShift Virtualization is the ability to use Kubernetes to manage containerized workloads, as well as, standard VM based workloads. And these are full VMs. These aren't micro VMs or, you know, things like Firecracker Kata Container. These are standard VMs that could be, well, Windows guests or Linux guests, running inside those VMs. And so it helps you basically, manage that type of environment where you may be moving to containers and more cloud native approach, but those containers need to interact or work with applications that are still in a VM based deployment environment. And we think it's really exciting, we've demoed it at the last Red Hat Summit. We're going to talk about it even more here, in terms of how we're going to bring those products to market and enable customers. >> Okay, yeah, Joe, let me make sure I understand this because as you said, it is a different approach. So, number one, if I'm moving towards a (mumbles) management solution, this is going to fit natively into what I'm doing. It's not taking some of my traditional management tools and saying, "oh, I also get some visibility containers." There's more, you know, here's my Kubernetes solution. And just some of those containers happen to be virtualized. Did I get that piece right? >> Yeah, I think it's more like... so we know that Kubernetes is going to be in in the environment because we know that, yeah, people are moving application workloads to standard Linux containers. But we also know that virtual machines are going to still exist in that environment. So you can think about it as, how would we enable Kubernetes to manage a virtual machine in the same way that it manages a Linux container? And, what we do there, is we actually, put the VM inside the container, right? So because the VM, specifically with (mumbles) is just a Linux process, and that's what a Linux container is. It's a Linux process, right? So you can run the hypervisor, span the virtual machines, inside of containers. But those virtual machines, are just like any other VM that would run in OpenStack or Red Hat Virtualization or what have you. And you could, vSphere for example. So those are traditional virtual machines, that are now being managed in a Kubernetes environment. And what we're seeing is sort of, this evolution of Kubernetes to take on these new types of workloads. VMs is just one example, of something that you can now manage with Kubernetes. >> Okay. And, help me understand what this means to really the app dev in my application portfolio. Because you know, the original promise of virtualization was, I can just stick my application in a VM and I never need to think about it ever again. And well, that was super helpful when windows NT was going end of life. In 2020, we do find that most companies do want to update their applications, and they are talking about, do I refactor them? Do I make them microservices architecture? I don't want to have that iceberg of an application that I'm just dragging along slowly into the new world. So. >> Yeah. >> What is this virtualization integration with Kubernetes? You mean for the AppDev and the applications? >> Yeah, sure, so what we see customers doing, what we see the application development team is doing is modernizing a lot of their existing applications, right? So they're taking traditional monolithic applications or end tier, like the applications that may run in a VM based environment and they're moving them towards more of a distributed architecture leveraging microservices based approach. But that doesn't happen all at once either, right? So, oftentimes what you see is your microservices, are still connected to VM based applications. Or maybe you're breaking down a monolithic application. The core is still running in a VM, but some of those business functions have now been carved out and containerized. So, you're going to end up in a hybrid environment from the application perspective in terms of how these applications are packaged, and deployed. The question is, what does that mean for your deployment architecture? Does it mean you always have to run a virtualization platform and a container platform together? That's how it's done today, right? OpenShift and Kubernetes run on top of vSphere, they run on top of Amazon and Azure and Google bands, and on top of OpenStack. But what if you could actually just run Kubernetes directly on Bare Metal and manage those types of workloads? That's really sort of the idea. A whole bunch of virtualization solution was based on is, let's just merge VMs natively with Kubernetes in the same way that we manage containers. And then, it can facilitate for the application developer. This evolution of apps that are running in one environment towards apps that are running essentially, in a hybrid environment from how they're packaged and deployed. >> Yeah, absolutely, something I've been hearing for the last year or so, that hybrid deployment, pulling apart application, sometimes it's even, the core piece as you said, is on premises and then I might have some of the more transactional pieces happening in the public cloud. So really interesting. So, how long has Red Hat been working on this? My (mumbles), something, you know, I'm familiar with in the CNCF. I believe it has been around for a couple of years. >> Yeah. >> So talk to us about just kind of how long it took to get here and, fully support stateful applications now. What's the overall roadmap look like? >> Yeah, so, so (mumbles) as a open source project was launched more than two years ago now. As you know, Red Hat really drives all of our development upstream in the open source community. So we launched (mumbles) project. We've been collaborating with other vendors and even customers on that. But then, you know, over time we then decided, how do we bring these technologies to market, which technologies make sense to bring the market? So, (mumbles) is the open source project. OpenShift and OpenShift Virtualization, which is what this feature is referred to commercially, is the product that then we would ship and support for running this in production environments. The capabilities, right. So, I think, those have been evolving as well. So, virtual machines have a specific requirements in terms of not only how they're deployed and managed, but how they connect to storage, how they connect networking, how do you do things like fencing and all sorts of live migration and that type of thing. We've been building out those types of capabilities. They're certainly still more to do there. But it's something that we're really excited about, not just from the perspective of running VMs, but just even more broadly from the perspective of how Kubernetes is expanding to take on new workloads, right? Because Kubernetes has moved far beyond just running, cloud native applications, today, you can run stateful services in containers. You can run things like AI and machine learning and analytics and IoT type services. But it hasn't come for free, right? This has come through a lot of hard work in the Kubernetes community, in the various associated communities, the container communities, communities like (mumbles). But it's all kind of trying to leverage that same automation, that same platform to just do more things. The cool thing is, it'll not just be Red Hat talking about it, but you'll see that from a lot of customers that are doing sessions at our summit this year and beyond. Talking about how, what it means to them. >> Yeah, that's great. Always love hearing the practitioner viewpoint. All right, Joe, I want to give you the final word when it comes to this whole space things kind of move pretty fast, but also we remember it when we first saw it. So, tell us what the customers who were kind of walking away from Red Hat Summit 2020 should be looking at and understanding that they might not have thought about if they were looking at Kubernetes, a year or two ago? >> Yeah, I think a couple of things. One is, yeah, Kubernetes and this whole container ecosystem is continuing to evolve, continuing to add capabilities and continue to expand the types of workloads, that it can run. Red Hat is right in the center of it. It's all happening in open source. Red Hat as a leading contributor to Kubernetes and open source in general, is driving a lot of this innovation. We're working with some great customers and partners, other vendors, who are working side by side with us as well. And I think the most important thing is we understand that it's an evolution for customers, right? So this evolution towards moving applications to the public cloud, adopting a hybrid cloud approach. This evolution in terms of expanding the types of workloads, and how you run and manage them. And that approach is something that we've always helped customers do and we're doing that today as they move out towards embracing a cloud native. >> All right, well, Joe Fernandez, thank you so much for the updates. Congratulations on the launch of OpenShift Virtualization. I definitely look forward to talking to some the customers in finding out that helping them along their hybrid cloud journey. All right. Lots more coverage from the CUBE at Red Hat Summit. I'm Stu Miniman ,and thank you for watching the CUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE, covering Kubecon and CloudNativeCon brought to you by Redhat, a CloudNative computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, we are here in San Diego where we are keeping CloudNative classy. I'm Stu Miniman, and my cohost is John Troyer, and we are happy to welcome back to the program, our host, Dan Kohn, who is the executive director of the CloudNative computing foundation, or the CNCF. Dan, thank you so much for having us. >> Thrilled to be back again. >> All right, and, yeah, so our fourth year doing this show, the big shows-- >> Dan: Nothing's really changed. You just tear right along the same level. One year to the next, you can just confuse them pretty easily.. >> So, you know, Dan, we actually did a prediction show yesterday, and I said, maybe it's my math background, but I look back two years ago, it was four thousand, then eight thousand, now twelve thousand, so I predict Boston must be sixteen thousand because I was used to those standardized tests, but with the growth, you never know, and it is very difficult, you know, we talk about planning, we've talked, this facility was booked before-- >> Dan: Two years ago. >> --the curve really started taking off. So, help us set the stage a little bit, we're getting towards the end of the event, but you know, tons of day zero things, so many sessions, so many people, there were pre-show events I heard that started like the end of last week, so, it's a small city in this community in so many pieces, and the CNCF helps enable all of it. >> It does, and what's fun for us is just that, the community is out there adopting these technologies and contributing to it and growing, and being able to come together, this is always our biggest event in North America but also in Europe and China. It's just a really nice snapshot of the point of time, in saying, okay, where are things, how many companies are interested in having sponsor booths, how many developers are there, how many track, but, I think maybe my favorite anecdote from Kubecon CloudNativeCon San Diego is that there was a, so we offer, a CFP track, a call for proposals that's extremely competitive, only 12% of the talks get accepted. And then we have a maintainer track, where the different providers can have either an intro, a deep-dive, or both. So the deep dive for the project Helm, which is not even a graduated project yet, I mean, it's very widely used, package manager for Kubernetes, but the deep dive for Helm had more than 1600 people inside their session, which is more than we had at all of attending Kubecon 2015 and 2016 combined. >> So, Dan, one of the words that gets mentioned a lot in this space, and it has lots of different meanings, is "scale". You know, we talk about Kubernetes built for big scale, we're talking about Edge computing which goes to small scale. This event, you look at the ecosystem. There's a thirty foot banner with all of the logos there, you look at the landscape-- >> Dan: They're not that big, either. >> --there are so many logos on there. Actually, I really thought you had an enjoyable yet useful analogy in your opening keynote. You talk about Minecraft. I've got a boy, he plays Xbox, I've seen Minecraft, so when he pulls up the little chart and there's like, you know, all of these little things on the side, my son can tell you how they're used and what you can build with them, I would be completely daunted looking at that, much like many of the people coming to this show, and they look around and they're like, I don't even know where to start. >> And that was fun keynote for me to put together, because I did need to make sure, both on the Minecraft part, that all the formulas were correct, I didn't want anyone... But then I drew the analogy to Kubernetes and how it is based on a set of building blocks, hundreds of them, that have evolved over time, and for that, I actually did some software archeology of reaching out to the people who created the original IPFW, Linux firewall 20 years ago based on PSD and then the evolution since then, made sure that they were comfortable with my description of it. But now, bringing it out to Kubecon, CNCF, we have a lot of projects now, so we're up to 43. When we met in Seattle four years ago, it was 2. And so it's definitely incumbent on CNCF to do a good job, and we can probably do an even better one on trying to draw this trail map, this recommended path through understanding the technologies, deciding on which ones people might want to adopt. >> Yeah, I think that would be really interesting. In fact, the words trail map kind of came up on Twitter, today, I saw. And one of the things that struck me was how the first rule of Kubecon is, well, Kubernetes is not maybe in the center of everything, it's underneath everything, but, like you said, 42 projects in the CNCF, many more projects, open-source projects, of course, from different vendors, from different coalitions, that you can see here on the show floor as well, if not in a session, so, without giving a maybe a CNCF 101, what does the path forward look like in terms of that, the growth of projects within the CNCF umbrella, the prominence of Kubecon, are we headed towards CloudNativeCon? >> Well, we've always been calling it Kubecon CloudNativeCon, and we could reverse the names, but I don't see any particular drive to do that. But I would really emphasize, and give credit to Craig McLuckie and some of the other people who originally set up CNCF, where Google had this technology, if they'd come to the Linux Foundation and said, we want to call it the Kubernetes Foundation, we probably would've said yes to that. But the impact, then, would be that all of these other technologies and approaches would have come in and said, we need to become part of the Kubernetes project, and instead, there was a vision of an ecosystem, and the reality is that Kubernetes is still by far the largest project. I mean, if you look at the total number of contributors, I believe it's approximately the same between Kubernetes and our other 42 projects combined. So, and of course, there's overlap. But in that sense, in some ways, Kubernetes sort of represents the sun, and the other projects are orbiting around it, but from the beginning, the whole idea was to say that we wanted to allow a diversity of different approaches, and CNCF has had this very clear philosophy that we're not king makers, that if you look at our landscape document, where we look at different functions like key management or container run times or databases or others, there can be multiple CNCF hosted projects in each box. And so far at least, that approach seems to be working quite well. >> Yeah, Dan, having been to a number of these, the maturity and progress is obvious. Something we've said is Kubernetes is really table sticks at this point, no matter where I go, there is going to be Kubernetes, and therefore, I've seen it some over the last year or so, but very prominent on this show, we're talking about work loads, we're talking about applications, you know, it's defining and explaining that CloudNative piece of it, and the tough thing is, you know, modern applications and building applications and that AppDev community. So, you know, speak a little bit-- You've got a very diverse audience here, talk about the personas you have to communicate with, and who you're attracting to this. I know they put out lots of metrics as to the surveys and who's coming and who's participating. >> Well, we do, and we'll be publishing those, and I love the fact. I think some people misunderstand in the thinking that Kubecon CloudNativeCon is all infrastructure engineers, and something like a third or more of the attendees are application developers, and so I do think there's this natural move, particularly towards AppDev. The difference is that on the infrastructure side, there's just a really strong consensus about Kubernetes, as you're saying, where on the application development side, it's still very early days. And I mean, if anything, I think really the only area that there is consensus on is that the abstractions that Kubernetes provides are not the ones that we want to have regular application developers at most enterprises working with, that they shouldn't actually need to build their own container and then write the YAML in order to configure it. Brian Liles hit that point nicely with his keynote today around Rails. But so we can agree that what we have isn't the right outcome, we can agree that whatever are the winning solutions are very likely underneath going to be building those containers and writing the YAML. But there are so many different approaches right now, at a high layer on what that right interface is. >> Yeah, I mean, just, one example I have, I had the opportunity to interview Bloomberg for the second time. And a year ago, we had talked very much about the infrastructure, and this year we talked about really, they've built internally that PaaS layer, so that their AppDevs, they might know that there's Kubernetes, but they don't have to interface with that at all. I've had a number of the CNCF end user members participate, maybe, speak to that, the community of end users participating, and end user usage overall. >> Yeah, so when we first met in Seattle four years ago, we had three members of our end user community. We appreciated them joining early, but that was a tough call. But to be up to 124 now, representing almost every industry, all around the world, just a huge number of brand names, has been fantastic. What is interesting is, if you go talk to them, almost all of them are using Kubernetes as the underlying layer for their own internal PaaS, and so the regular developers in their organizations can often just want to type get push, and then have the continuous integration run and the things built and then deployed out and everything. But it's somewhat surprising there hasn't yet been a level of consensus on what that sort of common PaaS, the common set of abstractions on top should be. There's a ton of our members and developers and others are all working to sort of build that winning solution, but I don't have a prediction for you yet. >> And of course, skill interoperability and skill transferability is going to be key in growing this ecosystem, but I thought the stats on you know, the searches you can do on the number of job openings for Kubernetes is incredible. >> Yeah, so on the interoperability, we were very pleased to announce Tuesday that we've now passed 100 certified vendors, and of all the things that CNCF does, probably even including Kubecon, I might say that that certified Kubernetes program is the one that's had the biggest impact. To have implementations from over 100 different organizations that you can take the same workloads and move them across and have the confidence, those APIs will be supported, it's just a huge accomplishment, and in some ways, up there with WiFi or Bluetooth or some of the best interoperability standards. And then you mentioned the job support, which is another-- >> Yeah, I want to transfer engineers too, as well as workloads. >> --area that we're thrilled, and we just launched that, but we now have a couple hundred jobs listed on it and a bunch of people applying, and it's just a perfect example of the kind of ecosystem development that we're thrilled to do, and in particular the fact that we're not charging either the employers or the applicants, so it's jobs.CNCF.io to get access to that. >> Great. Dan, you also mentioned in your keynote, Kubernetes has crossed the chasm. That changes the challenges that you have when you start talking about you know, the early or mid majority environment, so I know you've been flying around the globe, there's not only the three big events, but many small events, talk about how CNCF6 mission helps you know, educate and push, I guess not push, but educate and further innovation. >> Yeah, and just enable. So, one of the other programs we have is the Kubernetes Certified service provider, these are organizations, essentially consulting firms, that have a deep expertise that have had at least three of their engineers pass our certified Kubernetes administrator exam, and it is amazing now that we've passed 100 of those, but they're in over 30 different countries. So we're just thrilled to see businesses all around the world be able to take advantage of that. And I do get to go to a lot of events around the world; we're actually, CNCF is hosting our first ever events in Seoul and in Sydney in two weeks, that I'm quite excited for, and then in February, we're going to be back in India, and we're going to be in Bengaluru, where we had a very successful event in March. We'll be there in February 2020 and then our first one in New Delhi, those are both in the third week of February. And I think it does just speak to the number of people who are really eager for these to soak this up, but one of the cool things about it is we're combining both local experts, half of our speakers are local, half are international, and then we do a beginner track and an advanced track. >> Yeah, Dan, you know, I'd just love a little bit of insight from you as to, there's a little bit of uncontrolled chaos when you talk about open source. Many of the things that we're talking about this year, a year ago, we would've been, oh my gosh, I would've never thought of that. So give us what it's like to be kind of at the eye of the hurricane, if you would. >> A lot of criticism, to be honest. An amazing number of people like to point out the things that we're not quite doing correctly. But you know, the huge challenge for an organization like CNCF, where, we're a non-profit, these events are actually spinning off money that we're then able to reinvest directly into the projects, so doing things like a quarter million dollars for a security audit for Kubernetes that we were able to publish. Or a Jepson testing for NCD, or improving documentation and such. So a big part of it is trying to create those positive feedback loops, and have that, and then another huge part is just, given all the different competing interests and the fact that we literally have every big technology company in the world on our board and then all of the, I mean, hundreds of start ups that tend to be very competitive, it's just really important that we treat organizations similarly. So that all of our platinum members are treated the same, all our gold, all our silver, and then within the projects, that all the graduated projects are treated similarly, incubating, sandbox, and people really notice. I have kids, and it's a little bit there, where they're sort of always believing that the other kid is getting extra attention. >> Yeah, right, you can't be the king maker, if it will, you're letting it out. Look out a little bit, Dan, and you know, we still have more growth to go in the community, obviously the event has room for growth. What do you see looking forward to 2020 and beyond? >> Yeah, I would love to predict some sort of amazing discontinuity where everyone adopts these technologies and then CNCF is not necessary anymore, something like that. But the reality is, I mean, I love that crossing the chasm metaphor, and I do think it's very powerful, and we really do say 2018 was the year that Kubernetes crossed the chasm from the early adopters to the early majority, but I would emphasize the fact that it's only the early majority. We haven't reached in to the entire second half of the curve, the late majority and the laggards. And so there are a ton of organizations here at the event who are just getting up to speed on this and realizing, oh, we really need to invest and start understanding it. And so, I mean, I don't, we also talk about there will be some point of peak Kubecon, just like peak Loyal, and I don't yet see any signs of it being 2019 or 2020, but it's something that we're very cognizant of and working hard to try and ensure that the event remains useful for people and that they're seeing value from it. I mean, there was a real question when we went from one thousand Seattle four years ago to four thousand in Austin three years ago, oh, is this event even still useful, can developers still interact, do you still have conversations, is the hallway track still valuable? And thankfully, I'm able to chat with a lot of the core developers, where this is their fifth North American Kubecon and they're saying, no, I'm still getting value out of it. Now, what we tend to hear from them is, "but I didn't get to go to any sessions," or "I have so many hallway tracks and private meetings and interactions and such," but the great thing there is that we actually get all of these sessions up on YouTube within 48 or 72 hours, and so, people ask me, "oh, there's 18 different tracks, how do I decide which one to go to?" And I always say, "go to the one where you want to interact with the speaker afterwards, or ask a question," because the other ones, you can watch later. But there isn't really a substitute for being here on the ground. >> Well, there's so much content there, Dan, I think if they start watching now, by the time you get to Amsterdam, they'll have dented a little bit. >> I'll give a quick pitch for my favorite Chrome extension, it's called Video Speed Player. And you can speed people up to 120, 125%, get a little bit of that time back. >> Yeah, absolutely, we have at the backend of ours, there is YouTube, so you can adjust the speed and it does help most of the time, and you can back up a few seconds if needed. Dan, look, congratulations, we know you have a tough role, you and the CNCF, we really appreciate the partnership. We love our community, it has had a phenomenal time this week at the show, and look forward to 2020 and beyond. >> I do as well, I really want to thank you for being with us through this whole way, and I think it is just an important part of the ecosystem. >> And I know John Furrier also says thank you and looks forward to seeing you next year. >> Oh, absolutely. >> Dan, thank you so much. John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, getting towards the end of our three days, wall-to-wall coverage here in sunny San Diego, California, thanks for watching theCUBE.

>> Announcer: Live from San Diego, California, it's theCUBE. Covering KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. Brought to you by Red Hat, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, I'm Stu Miniman and my Co-host is John Troyer. And you're watching theCUBE here in day two of our coverage of KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. And joining me is Tobi Knaup who is the co-founder and CTO of D2iQ. See what I did there, Tobi? >> That's right, I love it. >> Alright. So Tobi, first of all, KubeCon, of course D2iQ, last year when we were here it was Mesosphere, so give us a little bit, you've been to lots of customer meetings, 12,000 people in attendance, tell us a little bit about the energy and how your team's finding the show so far. >> Yeah, obviously biggest KubeCon so far and it's just amazing how far this community has come, how it's grown. How many projects are part of it now, how many vendors here, too. You know two expo halls with different booths and you know, I think it just shows how important this community, this ecosystem is. When customers come to us and say they want to work with Kubernetes the community's why they're really doing it. >> Yeah, it is a great community, great vibe for people that aren't already in it. It's easy to get started, but one of the big themes we're hearing here is simplicity, how to make it easier to get going and once they get going, what happens after day one? That's some of the rebranded pieces. So for our audience, explain a little bit, why the rebrand focus of the company, Day 2 operations, absolutely something that I hear a lot of discussion on and why is your team specifically well positioned for that environment. >> No absolutely, so the rebrand we did because obviously our old company named Mesosphere has Mesos in it. That's the open source product we started with. But we've been doing a lot more than that actually for many years, right? We help customers run Apache Kafka and Spark and Cassandra. We've been doing a lot with Kubernetes also for some time now and even more so now. So having one particular technology in the company name was holding us back, right. People just put us in that box but we're doing so much more. So that was the reason for the rebrand and so, we wanted a name that doesn't have a particular technology in it and so we're looking for what is really expressed, what we do, what we help our customers with? And we've always been focused on Day 2 operations, so everything that happens after the initial install. How do you monitor things properly, upgrade them and so on? So that's why we loved that Day 2 concept. And then the IQ really stands for a couple of things. First of all we try to put a lot of automation into our products, so make those products smart to help our customers. But more importantly too, when we look at the ecosystem as a whole, where are most customers at, where are most companies at. Well, they're still early in their cloud-native journey and they need to get up to speed, they need to get smart about cloud-native and about Day 2 operations and so that's the IQ piece. We want to help our customers become smart about this space, get educated and then learn to do cloud-native. >> So Tobi, one of the things that fascinates me about the Kubernetes ecosystem is that people bring stuff to the table. Kubernetes is here, that's evolving. Other companies, entities, projects are coming to the table with other open source concepts and solving problems that they have in the field. At D2iQ, when you were Mesosphere, you have years of experience dealing with production issues, scaling management, all these sort of really, really fascinating cloud-native problems, so you bring a lot of experience to the table. So one of the projects that you are now working on and working with your customers and partners and the bigger ecosystem on is a way of approaching operators. The concept of bringing this kind of lifecycle automation to applications and helping with all these Day 2 problems. Can you talk a little about so KUDO is the name of the framework, I guess. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you're bringing that here to sit at the table and what some people's experiences with that are and what they are using it for? >> Absolutely, yeah, so these data services, these stapler workloads like Kafka, Cassandra and Spark, that's been in our DNA for a very long time. In fact, a little known fact, Apache Spark was originally a demo application for Apache Mesos. That's how it started originally. Obviously, it took off. So, we've been doing that since even before we were a company. And we've been helping our customers on top of Mesos with running these complex data stacks and there's some equivalent of operators on top of Mesos called frameworks. So we've been building these frameworks and we realized it's a little too hard to build these things. We typically had to write thousands of lines of code, 10, 20,000 sometimes and it took too long. So what we actually did on Mesos many years ago is we extracted the common patterns from those frameworks and built it into a library and made it so you can actually build a framework with just configuration, with just YAML, so it's a language that allows you to essentially sequence your operations into phases and steps. kind of like you would write a run book that a human operator takes and then goes through, right? So when we looked at the Kubernetes Operator space, we saw some of those same challenges that we had faced years ago. Building a Kubernetes Operator requires to write a lot of code. Not every company has Go programmers, people that are skilled enough in Kubernetes that they can write an operator. And more importantly too, once you write those 10,000 lines of code or more, you also have to maintain it. You have to keep up with API changes and so, a lot of folks we talked to at KubeCon last year and to customers, said it's just too hard to build operators. The other side of that too, is folks said it's a little too hard to use those operators too because very common use cases, you build a data pipeline. That means you'll be using multiple different operators, say Kafka, Cassandra and Spark. So if those all have different APIs, that's pretty hard to manage. So we wanted to simplify that. We wanted to create an alternative way for building operators that doesn't require you to learn Go, doesn't require you to write code, it works with just this orchestration language that KUDO offers and then for the KUDO users, the API is the same across these different operators. It has a plugin for Kube Cuddle, so you can interface with all the different operators through that. So yeah, simplicity and a great developer experience are the keys here. >> Tobi, I was wondering maybe you bring us inside the personas you target with this type of solution. As we've seen the maturation of this space, first couple of years I came, it felt very infrastructure heavy. The last year or two, there's more of the AppDev discussion there. They don't always speak the same languages. Looks like you've got some tooling here to help simplify that environment and make it easier because of course your application developers don't want to worry about that stuff. That's the promise of things like serverless, or just we're going to take care of that and stats and whatnot, so where specifically do you target and what are you hearing from customers as to how they're sorting through these organizational changes? >> Yeah, so I think ultimately, everybody kind of wants a platform as a service in some way, right? If you're building an app for your business, you don't want to think about, how do I provision this database, how to do that? And obviously, I can go to a public cloud and I can use all those public cloud services but what a lot of folks are doing now is they're running on various different types of infrastructure. They're running on multiple public clouds. They're running on the Edge. We work with a lot of customers that have a need to deploy these data services, these operators in Edge locations, on the manufacturing floor in a factory, for instance. Or on a cruise ship, that's one company we're working with. So, how do you bring this API-driven deployment of these services to all these different types of locations? And so that's what we try to achieve with KUDO for the data services and then with our other products too, like Kommander, which is a multi-cluster control plane. It's about when organizations have all these different clusters. And very typically they get into the dozens or even hundreds of clusters fast. How do you then manage that? How do you apply configuration consistently across these clusters? Manage your secrets and RBAC rules and things like that? So those are all the Day 2 things that we try to help customers with. There's a little bit of a tension there sometimes, right? Because the great thing about Kubernetes is it's great for developers. It has a nice API, people love the API. People are very quick to adopt it, right? They try it out on their laptop, they setup their first cluster. That typically goes very fast and they very quickly have their first app running. So it happens organically, right? But every large organization also has a need to put the right governance in place, right? How I keep those clusters secure? How do I meet my regulatory requirements? How do I make sure I can upgrade those clusters fast, if I need to fix a security issue and so on? So there's that tension between the governance, the central IT and what the developers want to do. We try to strike a balance there with our products to give developers the agility that cloud-native promises but at the same time, give the IT folks the right controls so they can meet their requirements. >> Tobi, here at the show this year, obviously bigger and a lot more folks at different parts of their cloud-native journey. Again, with the experience you all have, as you talk to folks this year, obviously people are clearly in production. You talk about some of the governance issues, is there anything you can say about either what you think is going to make for a successful partnership with you and a successful customer? What qualities do you need to have by the time you're growing up in production and then also as they're making choices here, what should the end users be looking at? >> Right, so one of the things we realized over the years is actually cloud-native is a journey. Every organization is somewhere else on that journey. And you said partnership, I think that's the key word here. We want to partner with our customers because we realize that this stuff is complicated, right? And it's actually for us as a company, our journey has been kind of interesting because we started at this large scale spot, right? Before we were even a company, we were running these clusters with tens of thousands of notes. These large online services at Twitter and other companies, that's where we started and that's where our first product kind of landed. It's at that large scale is what we're known for but most organizations out there are much earlier in their journey to cloud-native. As so, what we realized is that we really need to partner with folks to even at the very first steps, where they're just getting educated about this space, right? What are containers? How are they different from VMs? What is this cluster management thing, right? How does this all fit together? So we try to hold our customers' hands, catch them where they are. Besides all of the software that we're building, we also offer trainings for example. And so we just try to have the conversation with the customer. Figure out what their needs are, whether that's training, whether that's services or different products. And the different products that come together in our Kubernetes product line, they're really designed to meet the customer at these different stages. There's Konway, that's our Kubernetes distribution, get your first project up and running. Then once you get a little bit more sophisticated, you probably want to do CI/CD. So we have an upcoming product for that, it's called Dispatch. Pretty excited about it. The data services with KUDO. Folks typically add that next and then very quickly you have these dozens of hundreds of clusters. Now, you need Kommander, right? So we try to fit that all together. Meet the customer where they are and I think education is a big piece of that. >> All right, Tobi, we want to give you the final word. You talked about some of the things coming out here, so just give us your viewpoint of the ecosystem broader as to what next things need to be done to help even further the journey that we're all on? >> Yeah, I think in terms of next things, there's a lot of interest around operators. Well, operators as the implementation but really what's happening is, people are running more and more different workloads on top of Kubernetes, right? And I think that's where a lot of the work is going to happen over the next year. There's some discussions in the CNCF now even. What is an operator? How do we define that? Is it something fairly broad? Is it something fairly specific? But Kubernetes is definitely the factor standard for doing cloud-native and people are putting it in a lot of different environments. They're putting it in Edge locations. So I think we need to figure out how do you have a sane sort of development workflow for these types of deployments? How do you define an application that might actually run on multiple different clusters? So I think there's going to be a lot of talk. Operators obviously, but also on the developers side, in a layer above Kubernetes, right? How can I just define my application in a way where I say maybe just run this thing at a highly available way on two different cloud providers, instead of saying specifically it needs to go here, it needs to go there? Or deploy this thing in a follow the sun model or whatever that is. So I think that's where a lot of the conversations are going to happen, is that level above. >> All right well Tobi, appreciate the updates. Congratulations on the progress and definitely look forward to catching more from you and D2iQ team in the near future. >> Thank you very much for having me. >> All right, for John Troyer, I'm Stu Miniman, lots more to come. Thanks for watching theCUBE. (light music)

(upbeat music) >> Narrator: Live from Barcelona, Spain. it's The Cube covering Cisco Live 2018. Brought to you by Cisco, Veeam, and The Cube's Ecosystem Partner. (upbeat music) (people chatting in background) >> Hey, welcome back, everyone. This is The Cube exclusive coverage live in Barcelona, Spain, for Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. I'm John Furrier, the co-founder and co-host of The Cube here all week, two days of live wall-to-wall coverage in the DevNet Zone where all the action's at. It's the biggest story at Cisco Live is the impact of the DevNet and the developer network that's been growing leaps and bounds. Of course, we covered DevNet Create earlier last year, which is a Cloud Native event. Kind of bring in two communities together from Cisco and of course, we can't talk about developers without talking about experiences that developers need and want and expect and also, you know, how to operate in those environments. We have two great guests. Mandy Whaley's been on before, The Cube Alumni Director of Developer Experiences at Cisco, and Tom Davies, who's the Senior Manager of the DevNet Sandbox. Welcome to The Cube. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Good to see you again. >> Excited to be here. Yeah, good to see you, too. >> So congratulations. >> DevNet is again booming. It's the hot part of the show. It's one of the top stories here in Barcelona. >> Yes. >> It's been great. Our workshops, where we're doing the hands-on coding, have been extremely full even early in the morning and late into the evening, and it's great to see people really diving in, laptops open, getting their hands on, and doing some coding. >> That's great stuff, congratulations. And, you know, the Sandbox is interesting because now you guys are completely open. Love the motto: learn, code, inspire, and connect. That's the motto here. You got to have a place for people to do this. >> You do. >> What is this Sandbox thing that you guys are rollin' out? It's pretty interesting. >> Yeah, so the Sandbox is completely open to everyone, and the idea behind it is if you like, if you can go to developer.cisco.com/sandbox, you can hit our catalog and start playing with our technology within minutes by just clicking on the technology you want to cover. We'll spin you up that environment, and you can start playing it as a developer really quite quickly. >> Alright, take me through a progression example, because let's just say I hit that website, developer.cisco.com/sandbox, >> Yeah. what do I do? I mean, what are people doing? Is it like, you know, Hello World or what are they coding? What are they learning? I mean, what's goin' on there? >> It just depends on the technology that they choose. So we go to developer.cisco.com/sandbox, hit Catalog, it comes out with a bunch of titles, and in that catalog, you can choose Networking, you could choose Security, you could choose Data Center, Cloud, Open Source, any different technology that that developer might be interested in or want to integrate into, and then from there they click on that title and say, "Right, I want to reserve say APIC-EM. "I'm interested in Networking and control of Networking." From there, we spin that environment up for them, completely secure, send them the details of how it's connect, they connect to it, and then they are free to start coding within minutes on, say, a APIC-EM controller solution, figure out what the latest release provides them, >> Yeah. how they integrate into it, and how they can start innovatin' in a really easy way over the top. >> So they can, it's a playground. They can do mash-ups. >> It's a playground, yeah. >> It is. >> I can sling API's around, test stuff, break stuff. >> If they're breaking somethin', they're probably doin' something right so we encourage it. >> Yeah (laughs) >> Yeah. >> It's brilliant. >> Yeah. >> The other thing that's really cool about the Sandbox is that Tom takes a lot of time and care to make sure we put together fully, you know, environments where you can actually build things with the Cisco gear plus open source projects that are relevant to those pieces of the Cisco technology portfolio, so it's not just the environment. It's sample code, it's open source you can use, it's traffic generations, it's really a full working environment. >> Yeah, that brings up a good point I wanted to ask you, as we had some other guests on. We couldn't get to it. You're startin' to see with Kubernetes and well, first docker containers and now all containers. Really interesting. I mean, Red Hat just bought CoreOS yesterday. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It's big news. >> They did, they did. >> Big news, yeah. >> In Europe, you miss all the action. The State of the Union. (Tom laughs). >> I know. >> It was a big story on the New York Times on Sunday. I'm like, "Ah, I'm missin' all the late news." But that's a signal. Containers are commoditized. You're seeing that be the now abstraction layer for moving work loads around and program around it. >> We do. >> Kubernetes gives an orchestration opportunity that now allows you to bring this service mesh concept to the table. >> It does. >> This is becoming a really interesting developer dream, because now I could provision >> Yes. microservices and start doing network services with those microservice at the app layer. >> Yeah. >> This to me is a really, really big trend. I know you guys have kind of quietly put it out there, a term called "Net DevOps," >> Yes. which I think will be a very big thing. >> Yep. (Mandy laughs) >> Because it's DevOps the whole stack. >> It is. >> That's right, yeah. >> But really usin' the network more, so for the people who are power users of network services, this could become a very big DevOps movement. >> Yes, yes. >> Can you explain this concept of the Net DevOps, and does that relate to like SDO and some of the service mesh stuff out there? What's your-- >> Yeah, do you want to start with service mesh and then I'll dive into the lower parts or, yeah? >> We can do that. >> Go for it. >> Jump right in. >> Yeah. >> Share the information. >> Yeah, sure. >> The term service mesh is actually fairly new, and it's common because as people use microservices more, their understandin' that they just perforate like crazy, and it's actually really quite hard to understand which microservices talk to which microservices, are they doin' it securely? Are they within policy? Are they talkin' to the right thing? And that's where SDO comes in. It's really providin' a proxy for that traffic so you can easily talk between microservice A and microservice B, understand it, see observability between that traffic, and then control that traffic, and SDO is takin' really the abstraction away, takin' the pain away from that huge service. >> Just talk about the quantify that time savings, because this is like, I think this really kind of was the minds get blown. That example you just laid out, without that, what would you have to do? I have to build a proxy, I have to test it. >> You do. >> I mean, just take me through it. >> Yeah. The comparisons A to B. >> Well, normally when you have >> Real quick. a microservice, you probably have about 15 other services around them all. Like if you had a ton of microservices, you probably have 15 different subserving services around it. With SDO, it takes 15 away so you don't have to manage or operate all those, and it brings you down to one, and that's really super key, 'cause it makes it so much easier to deal with microservices >> Yeah. then to bail them out. >> And then I boil it down, and then I tell people when Amazon launched Lambda, which essentially the serverless trend, 'cause they're always >> Yeah. just services. Never really serverless. (Mandy laughs) I know the Cisco people debate this all the time, and now there's, it's true. This server's behind it. >> Of course. They just take this abstraction away. They're really enabling this notion of a mindset for the developer where this gets into the user experience, user expectation. >> Right. >> Yes. >> If I want infrastructure as a code and I don't want to dive into the network services, I want the one not the 15 to deal with. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> I'm essentially programming the infrastructure at that point, so this is a big, effin' deal. >> This is a big deal, >> It is. and then even what we're seeing is that the expectations are set by DevOps practices, and now that our network devices are opening up APIs, and we have the really strong assurance and analytics pieces that we saw in the Cisco keynotes, we can extend those DevOps concepts to managing network devices. So something very traditional, networking task, like out of VLAN. Let's say you want to do that, but you want to do that in a network as code manner. So you want to take that through a build pipeline, something that would be familiar to a developer or somebody who manages their infrastructure in a DevOps way, but now you can do it for a networking device. And you can take it through build and test just like you would code, and all of your network configurations are source controlled so you have your version control around it, and that's a big mind shift for the network developers. But in DevNet, we have the application developers, the ops engineers, and the net workers, and then what we're tryin' to do is share those practices across because that's the only way we'll get to the scale, the consistency, the level of automation that we need. >> Alright, so here's a question for you guys. Put you on the spot. DevOps has been great. It's going mainstream. Some are called CloudOps, whatever, but DevOps is great, great movement. >> Yes. >> That's been goin' on for a while, you know. Hey. >> Yeah. You know, pat each other on the back. (Mandy laughs) But DevOps means automation. >> Yes, yes. >> Right? >> And the old rule is you got to do it twice automated. This scares people. So what is being automated away in the Net DevOps model? >> So I wouldn't know that it's being automated away, but the idea is that is if we're managing infrastructure, traditionally you would do it in a sequential and manual way, right? But we need to do it in a parallel and automated way. So moving towards that automation helps us do that. I think we see some network engineers who think, "I have to learn a lot of new skills to do this." >> Mm-hmm. >> And that is true, but you don't have to be the level of an application developer who's writing applications to do some automation and scripting, and DevNet's really working to put the tools out there to lead them down that path and get them moving in that direction. It's also a little bit more, I mean, DevOps is definitely the automation in the tools. There's also the culture of bringing Dev and Ops together. So the same thing happens there as well. >> Totally agree, and also the process as well, repeatability in what we're doin'. So once you've done one >> Yes. and that process works for you, you can repeat that process for the next set of configuration you're deploying. >> Yeah, definitely. >> What's interesting. >> Super slick. >> Rowan showed on stage the future titles of what it'll be like in 2030 or 2050. I forget which year it was. >> Yes, yes. I joked, it says the LinkedIn on that. Might not even be around, might be around then, either. (Mandy laughs) This is a new field, right? >> Yes. >> And successful companies, the ethos was hire the smartest person because the jobs that are coming haven't been invented yet, so there's no right experience there. So this kind of reminds me of what's going on with DevOps where, you know, Network guys, they're not dumb. I mean, they're smart, right? >> Super smart. >> You know? >> Yeah. >> And it used to be that you were the rock star if you ran the network. >> That's right, that's right. >> Okay, now the rock stars are more the app developers and the developers on the Dev Op side. So these would be easy, and we're seeing that it's easy for those guys to jump in to some of these coding and/or agile mindsets. >> Yes. >> 'Cause they are gunslingers, they are rock stars. >> They are, it's incredible how fast they're picking it up. I mean, they are, just from the ones that we met from last year to this year who were here came to like their first coding class. This year they're here, and they're like, "Oh yeah, I totally get this build pipeline. "I'm doing this in my organization." We're seeing 'em pick it up incredibly fast. >> And so they obviously see a path to other jobs. What patterns are you guys seeing in terms of things that they're doing on the Sandbox and/or some of the user expectations that they have as they're now fresh, young, or/and middle age >> Yeah. or old students >> Right? in the new world. What are some of the patterns? >> Yeah. >> What are they kickin' tires on? What's the, what are they gravitating towards? >> Everythin', but they yeah, literally everythin', but they're always like quite interested in containers and what's happenin' in the container world and how that applies >> Yes. to networkin', especially because as we touched on it earlier, there's a lot of networkin' to be had in the container world, and it's not just one layer of (mumbles) of the service mesh. There's also virtualization layers, there's like abstracted policy layers. There's a good few layers of networkin' that you need to know and really understand to be able to get into, so that's one real trend that the network guys >> Yes. really are jumpin' on, and so they should, because they're great at it. >> Yeah, I would add to that. Like I've been seeing, you know, in different conversations I have with people who are coming from the appDev side or the Op side and saying, "Wow, I'm really good at containers. "I can build apps and containers all day." And then they get into it, and they're like, "The networking part of containers is hard. "There's a lot to learn." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so I definitely see a lot of activity around both sides coming together around, "How do we really make that work?" >> And the bottom line is is that this whole "Your job's going away" is ridiculous because this really proves that there is so much job security in DevOps it's ridiculous. >> There's more devices per engineer to be managed then ever before, so it's really just you have to have the automation to even keep up, right? >> Yeah, it's quite funny, actually, because I come from a very much a software centered background, and networkin' to me was black magic. You had to know so much stuff in the networking order, it used to scare the hell out of me, but I had to go down into the network layer to start understandin' it to do a better job of software >> Well, you was locked down. and I'm seein' the reverse. >> I mean, you had perimeter-base security, (Tom laughs) and you had very inflexible configuration management things. You were just >> Yeah. really locked down. >> That's right. Now agile and dyanmic >> And then we're seein'. adaptive, and these are the words that are described. And now add IoT to the mix. You guys had the Black Hat, you know, IoT booth here, >> Yes. which is phenomenal. >> Yes. It's only going to increase the edge of the network, which is not new to Cisco. >> Definitely. Cisco knows the edge. >> That's right. So it's going to be interesting to see that going forward. >> Yeah. >> Definitely. >> And that's one of our sandboxes. We have a sandbox where developers can practice taking docker containers and deploying them into Edge Compute in our routers, and that's one that's really popular and gets a lot of-- >> It's incredibly popular. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Mandy and Tom, thanks for comin' on The Cube. Really appreciate, great to see you again. >> Yeah, thank you so much. >> Congratulations on all your success. Go kick on the tires of the Sandbox. >> It's all down to Mandy. >> Yeah. >> You guys did a great job. >> DevNet developer network for Cisco here, and of course DevNet created in separate small, boutique-event small, for the Cloud Native World. You want to check that out. Well, the Cube will be there this year. This is The Cube live coverage. I'm John Furrier, stay tuned for more of day 2, exclusive Cisco Live 2018 in Europe. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey welcome back to VMWorld 2013. This is theCUBE, flagship program. We go out to the events to extract the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, the founder of SiliconANGLE. I'm joined with David Vilante, my co-host from Wikibon.org and we're kicking off today with an awesome interview. CEO of VMWare, Pat Gelsinger, CUBE Alumni. Been on the theCUBE with Dave and I multiple times. So many times. You are in like the leaderboards. So in terms of overall guest frequency, you've been up there, but also you're also the top dog at VMWare and great to see you again. How are you feeling? >> Thank you, thank you. Good morning, guys. >> Pleasure. >> Good to see you. >> So what's new? I mean obviously you're running the show here. You're running around. Last night you were at the NetApp event. You ran through CIO, R&D. You got to go out and touch all the bases out here. >> Yeah, yeah. >> What does that look like? What have you done and obviously, you did, the key note was awesome. What else is going on? >> You know, everything, you know, VMWorld is just, it's just overwhelming, right? I mean 23,000 people almost. I mean you know the amount of activities around that and it really has become the infrastructure event for the industry and you know, if you're anything related to infrastructure, right, what's going on, right in the enterprise side of IT, you got to be here, right? And there's parties everywhere. Every vendor has their events. Every you know, different particular technology area, a bunch of the things that we're doing, and of course to me, it's just delightful that I can go touch as many people and you know, they get excited to see the CEO. I have no idea why, but hey I get to show up. It's good. >> You've been in the industry for a long time. Obviously you've seen all the movies before and we've talked about the seas of change in the EMC world when you were there, but we had two guests on yesterday that were notable. Steve Herrod who's now a venture capitalist at Generalcatalyst and Jerry Chen who's a VC at Graylock, and we have a 10-year run here at VMWare which is esteemed by convention, but the first five years were a lot different than the last five years, and certainly, the last year you were at the helm. So what's changed in the past 24 months? A lot of stuff has certainly evolved, right? So the Nicira acquisition certainly changed up, changed everything, right? You saw software-defined data center now come into focus this year, but really, just about less than 24 months, a massive kind of change. What, how do you view all that? How do you talk to your employees and the customers about that change? >> Well you know, as we think about the software-defined data center vision, right, it is a broad comprehensive powerful vision for rearchitecting how the data center is operated, how customers take advantage of it. You know and the results and the agility and efficiency that comes from that. And obviously the Nicira acquisition is sort of the shot heard 'round the world as the really, "Okay, these guys are really serious "about making that happen." And it changes every aspect of the data center in that regard. You know and this year's VMWorld is really, I'll say, putting the beef on the bones, right? We talked about the vision, we talked about each of the four legs of it: compute, networking, storage and management of automation. So this year it's really putting the beef on the bones and the NSX announcement, putting substance behind it. The vSAN announcement, putting substance behind it. The continuing progress of management and automation. And I think everything that we've seen here in the customer conversations, the ecosystem of partner conversations are SDDC is real. Now get started. >> Can you, I think you've had some fundamental assumptions in that scenario, particularly around x86 in the service business. Essentially if I understand it, you've said that x86 will dominate that space. You're expecting status quo in the sense that it will continue to go in the cadence of you know, cores and Moore's Law curve even though we know that's changing. But that essentially will stay as is and it's the other parts, the networking and the storage piece that you're really, where you define conventions. Is that right? >> Yeah certainly we expect a continuing momentum by the x86 by Intel in that space, but as you go think about software-defined everything in the data center really is taking the power of that same core engine and applying it to these other areas because when we say software-defined networking, right, you need a very high packet flow capability and that's running a software on x86. We need to talk about data services running in software, right? You need high performance. It's snapshots, file systems, etc. running on software, no longer bound to you know physical array. So it really is taking that same power, that same formula right, and applying it to the rest of the elements of the data center and yeah, we're betting big right, that that engine will continue and that we'll be successful in being able to deliver that value in this software layer running on that core powerful Silicon engine. >> So Pat, so obviously when you came on board, the first thing you did was say, "Hey, the pricing. "I want to change some things." Hyper-Visor's always been kind of this debate. Everyone always debates about what to do with Hyper-Visor. But still, virtualization's still the enabling technology so you know, you kind of had this point where the ball's moving down the field and all of a sudden, in 2012, it changed significantly, and that was a lot in part with your vision with infrastructure. As infrastructure gets commoditized, what is going to change in the IT infrastructure and for service providers, and the value chains that's going to be disrupted? Obviously economics are changing. What specifically is virtualization going to do next with software defined that's going to be enabling that technology? >> Yeah, you know and I, you know, we're not out to commoditize. We're out to enable innovation. We're out to enable agility, right, and then the course of that, it changes what you expect and what the underlying hardware does. But you know, it's enabling that ecosystem of innovation is what we're about and customers to get value from that and as you go look at these new areas, "Hey, you know, we're changing how you do networking." Right, all of a sudden, we're going to create a virtual network overlay that has all of these services associated with it that are proficient just like VMs in seconds. We're creating a new layer of how storage is going to be enabled. You know, this policy-driven capability. Taking those capabilities that before were tightly bound to hardware, delivering it through the software layer, enabling this new magnificent level of automation and yesterday's demo with Carl. I mean Carl does a great CTO impersonation, doesn't he? And he's getting some celebrity action. He's like, "I got the bottle." >> Oh yeah. >> Steve Herrod gave him a thumbs up too. >> Yes, yeah Steve gave him a good job. But you know, so all of those pieces coming together, right, is you know, really, and you know, just the customer and the ecosystem response here at the show has been, "Oh, you know, right, "SDDC, it's not some crazy thing out there in the future. "This is something I can start realizing value for now." >> Well it's coming into focus. It's not 100% clear for a lot of the customers because they're still getting into the cloud and the hybrid cloud, I call it the halfway house to kind of a fully evolved IT environment, but you know. How do you define? >> No it is the endgame. Hyper cloud is not a halfway house. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? >> To to full all-utility computing. That is ultimately what we're saying. >> Halfway house? >> I don't mean it that way. (group laughs) >> Help me. >> Okay next question. >> (chuckles) When you're in a hole, stop digging, buddy. >> So how do you define the total adjusted mark at 50 billion that Carl talked about? >> Yeah you know, as we looked at that, we said across the three things, right that we said, software-defined data center, 28 billion dollars; hyper cloud, 14 billion; eight billion for the end-user computing; that's just 50 billion opportunity. But even there, I think that dramatically understates the market opportunity. IT overall is $1.7 trillion, right? The communications, the services, outsourcing, etc. And actually the piece that we're talking about is really the underpinnings for a much larger set of impact in the part of what applications are going to be developed, how services are delivered, how consumers and businesses are able to take advantage of IT. So yes, that's the $50 billion. We'll give you the math, we'll show you all the details of Gartner's and IDC's to support it. But to us, the vision and the impact that we're out for is far more dramatic than that would even imply. >> Well that's good news because we said to Carl, "It's good that your market cap is bigger than--" (Pat laughs) >> Oh yeah your TAM is bigger than your market cap. Well okay now we-- >> Yeah, that's nice, yeah. Yeah, we're out to fix the market cap. >> Yeah he said, "Now we got to get the 50 billion. So I'm glad to hear there's upside to the TAM. But I wanted to ask you about the ecosystem conversation. When you talk about getting things like you know, software defined network and software defined source, what's the discourse like in ecosystem? For guys like, let's take the storage side. EMC, NetApp last night, they say, "Hey you know, software defined storage. "We really like that, but we want to be in that business." so what, talk about that discussion. >> Yeah, clearly every piece of software defined, whether it's software defined storage, software defined data services, software defined security services or networking, every piece of that has ecosystem implications along the way. But if you go talk to a NetApp or a EMC, they'd say, "You're an appliance vendor." And they would quickly respond and say, "No, our value's in software, "and we happen to deliver it as an appliance." And we'd say, "Great, let's start delivering "the software value as a software appliance "through virtualization and through the software delivery "mechanisms that we're talking about for this new platform." Now each one of them has to adjust their product strategies, their, you know, business strategies to enable those software components, right, independent of their hardware elements for full execution and embodiment into the software-defined data center feature. But for the most part, every one of them is saying, "Yes, now how do we figure out how to get there, "and how do we decompose our value, embody it it in new ways "and how can we enable that in "this new software-defined data center vision?" >> And they've always done that with software companies. I mean certainly Microsoft and Oracle have always grabbed a piece of the storage stack and put it into their own, but it's been very narrow, within their own spaces, and of course, VMWare is running any application anywhere. So it's more of a general purpose platform. >> Absolutely. >> Is it a tricker fit for the ecosystem to figure out where that white space is? >> Absolutely. Every one of them has to figure out their strategy. If you're F5, you know, I was with John McAdam this morning. "Okay, how do I take my value?" And you would very quickly say, "Hey, our value's in software. "We deliver it as mostly as appliances, "but how do we shift, you know, your checkpoint?" Okay, you know, they're already, right, you know, our largest software value or Riverbed, you know, the various software vendors and security as well. Each one of them are having to rethink their strategies and the context of software define. Our customers are saying, "Wow, this is powerful. "The agility and the benefits that I get from it, "they're driving them to go there." >> So what's the key to giving them confidence? Is it transparency? You're sharing roadmaps during integration? >> Yes, yes, yes. >> Anything else? Am I missing anything there? >> You know, also how we work with them and go to market as well. You know, they're expecting from us that, okay, "you know, if this is one of our accounts, "come in and work with us on those accounts as well." So we do have to be transparent. We have to the APIs and enable them to do integration. We have to work with them in terms of enabling their innovation and the context of this platform that we're building. But as we work along the way, we're getting good responses to that. >> Pat, how do you look at the application market? Now with end-user computing, you guys are picking that up. You got Sanjay Poonen coming in and obviously mobile and cloud, we talked about this before on theCUBE, but core IT has always been enabling kind of the infrastructure and then you get what you get from what you have in IT. Now the shift is, application is coming from outside IT. Business units and outside from partners, whether they're resellers. How do you view that tsunami of apps coming in that need infrastructure on demand or horizontally scalable at will? >> Yeah so first point is, yes, right, we do see that, you know, as infrastructure becomes more agile and more self provisioned, right, more aligned to the requirements of applications, we do see that it becomes a tsunami of new applications. We're also working very hard to enable IT to be the friend of the line of business. No longer seen as a barrier, but really seen as a friend, partner enabler of what they're trying to do because many of the, you know, line of businesses have been finding way. You know, how do I get around the slow-moving IT? Well we want to make IT fast-moving and enabling to meet their security, governance, SLA requirements while they're also enabling these powerful new applications to emerge and that to us is what infrastructure is all about for the future is enabling, you know, businesses to move at the speed of business and not have infrastructure being a limiter and as we're doing things, you know, like the big data announcements that we did, enabling infrastructure that's more agility, you see us do more things in the AppDev area over time, and enabling the management tools to integrate more effectively to those environments. Self-service portals that are enabling that and obviously with guys like Sanjay in our mobile initiative, yeah that's a big step up. Don't you like Sanjay? He's a great addition to the team. >> Yeah Sanjay's awesome. He's been great and he has done a lot on the mobile side. Obviously that is something that the end users want. >> That's an interesting way that I put him into that business group first. (group chuckles) >> Well on the Flash side, so under the hood, right? So we look under the hood. You got big data on the dashboard. Everyone's driving this car to the new future of IT. Under the hood, you got Flash. That's changing storage a bit and certainly reconfiguring what a DaaS is and NaaS and SaaS and obviously you talked about vSAN in your key note. What is happening, in your vision, with compute? I mean obviously as you have more and more apps hitting IT, coming in outside core IT but having to be managed by core IT, does that change the computing paradigm? Does it make it more distributed, more software? I mean how do you look at that 'cause that's changing the configuration of say the compute architecture. >> Sure and I mean a couple of things, if you think about the show here that we've done, two of them in particular in this space, one is vSAN, right? A vSAN is creating converged infrastructure that includes storage. Why do you do that? Well now you have storage, you know, apps are about data, right? Apps need data to operate on so now we've created an integrated storage tier that essentially presents an integrated application environment in converged infrastructure. That changes the game. We talked about the Hadoop extension. It changes how you think about these big data applications. Also the Cloud Foundry announcement. Right on/off premise of PaaS layer to uniquely enable applications and as they've done that on the PaaS layer, boy, you don't have to think about the infrastructure requirements to deploy that on or off premise or increasingly as I forecast for the future, hybrid applications, born in the hybrid, not born in the cloud, but born in the hybrid cloud applications that truly put the stuff that belongs on premise on premise, puts the stuff that belongs on the cloud in the cloud, right and enables them to fundamentally work together in a secure operational manner. >> So the apps are dictating through the infrastructure basically on demand resources, and essentially combine all that. >> Absolutely. Right. The infrastructure says, "Here's the services "that I have already, right, in catalogs "that you can immediately take advantage of, "and if this, you fit inside "of these catalogs, you're done." It's self-provisions from that point on and we've automated the operations and everything to go against that. >> So that concept of "born in the hybrid" is a good one. So obviously that's your sweet spot. You're going from a position. >> Yeah and this stupid halfway house hybrid comment. I mean I've never heard something so idiotic before. >> One person, yeah. (group chuckles) >> I don't know, it was probably an Andreessen comment or something, I don't know. (group chuckles) >> He's done good for himself, Marc Andreessen. >> Google and Amazon are obviously going to have a harder time with that, you know, born in the hybrid. What about Microsoft? They got a good shot at born in the hybrid, don't they? >> Yeah, you know and I think I've said the four companies that I think have a real shot to be you know, very large significant players for public cloud infrastructure services. You know, clearly Amazon, you know Google, they have a large, substantive very creative company. Yeah Microsoft, they have a large position. Azure, what they've done with Hyper-V and ourselves, and I think that those, you know the two that sort of have the natural assets to participate in the hybrid space are us and Microsoft at that level, and obviously you know we think we have lots of advantages versus Microsoft. We think we're miles ahead of them and SDDC, right, we think the seamlessness and the compatibility that we're building with one software stack, not two. It's not Azure and Hyper-V. It is SDDC in the cloud and on premise that that gives us significant advantages and then we're going to build these value rate of services on top of it, you know, as we announced with Desktop as a Service, Cloud Foundry as a Service, DR as a service. We're going to quickly build that stack of capabilities. That just gives substantial value to enterprise customers. >> So I got to ask you, talk about hybrid since you brought it up again. So software defined data center software. So what happens to the data center, the actual physical data center? You mentioned about the museum. I mean what is it going to look like? I mean right now there's still power and cooling. You're going to have utility competing with cloud resources on demand. People are still going to run data centers. >> You're talking about the facility? >> Yeah, the actual facility. I'm still going to have servers. This will be an on premise. Do you see that, how do you see that phasing out to hybrid? What does that look like physically for someone to manage? Just to get power, facility management, all that stuff. >> Yeah and in many ways, I think here, the you know, the cloud guys, Googles and Amazons and Yahoos and Facebooks have actually led the way in doing some pretty creative work. These things become you know, highly standardized, highly modularized, highly scalable, you know, very few number of admins per server ratio. As we go forward, these become very automated factories, right, of cloud execution. Some of those will be on premise. Some of those will be off premise. But for the most part, they'll look the same, right, in how they operate and our vision for software defined data center is that software layer is taking away the complexity, right, of what operates underneath it. You know, they'll be standardized, they'll be modularized. You plug in power, you plug in cooling, you plug in network, right, and these things will operate. >> Basically efficient down to the bone. >> Yeah. >> Fully operated software. >> Yeah and you know, people will decide what they put in their private cloud, you know, based on business requirements. SLAs, you know, privacy requirements, data governance requirements, right? I mean in Europe, got to be on premise in these locations and then they'll say, "Put stuff in the public cloud "that allows me to burst effectively. "Maybe a DR because I don't do that real well. Or these applications that belongs in the cloud, right because it's distributive in nature, but keep the data on premise. You know, and really treat it as a menu of options to optimize the business requirements between capex to opex, regulatory requirements, scale requirements, expertise, mission critical and all of those things then are delivered by a sustainable position. Not some stupid hybrid halfway house. A sustainable position that optimizes against the business requirements that they have. >> Let me take one of those points, SLA. Everybody likes to attack Amazon and its SLAs, but in many regards. >> Yeah, I'm glad I got your attention. >> Yeah, that's good, we're going to come back to that John. (group chuckles) >> In my head right now. >> I don't think we're done with that talk track. (laughs) So it's easy to attack Amazon and SLAs, but in essence, the SLA is, to the degree of risk that you're willing to take and put on paper at scale. So how transparent will you be with your SLAs with the hybrid cloud and you know, will they exceed what Amazon and Google have been willing and HP for that matter have been willing to promise at scale? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean we're going to be transparent. The SLAs will have real teeth associated with them, you know, real business consequences for lack of execution against them. You know, they will be highly transparent. You know, we're going to have true, we're going to measure these things and you know, provide uptime commitments, etc. against them. That's what an enterprise service is expected, right? At the end of the day, that's what enterprises demand, right? When you pick up the phone and need support, you get it, right. And in our, the VMWare support is legendary. I'm just delighted by the support services that we offer and the customer response to those is, "Hey you fixed my problem even when "it wasn't your problem and make it work." And that's what enterprise customers want because that's what they have to turn around and commit back to their businesses against all of the other things as well. You know, regulatory requirements, audit requirements, all of those types of things. That's what being an enterprise provider is all about. >> John wants to get that. Talk about public cloud. (Pat laughs) >> I want to talk about OpenStack because you guys are big behind OpenStack. You talk about it as a market expansion. Internally what are some of the development conversations and sales conversations with customers around OpenStack instead of status, what's it doing, how you guys are looking at that and getting involved? >> Yeah, you know, we've clearly said you know, that you have to think about OpenStack in the proper way. OpenStack is a framework for building clouds, and you know, for people who are wanting to build their own cloud as opposed to get the free package cloud, right, you know, this is our strategy to enable those APIs, to give our components to those customers to help them go build it, right and those customers, largely are service providers, internet providers who have unique scale, integration and other requirements and we're finding that it's a good market expansion opportunity for us to put our components in those areas, contribute to the open source projects where we truly have IP and can differentiate for it like at the Hyper-Visor level, like at the right networking layer and it's actually going pretty well. You know, in our Q2 earnings call, you might recall, you know, I talked about that our business with the public OpenStack customers was growing faster than the rest of our business. That's pretty significant, right, to say, "Wow, if it's growing faster, "that says the strategy is working." Right, and we are seeing a good response there and clearly we want to communicate. We're going to continue that strategy going forward. >> And the installed base of virtualization is obviously impressive and the question I want to ask you is how do you see the evolution of the IT worker? I mean they have the old model, DBA, system admins, and then now you have data science on the big data side so with software defined data center, the virtualization team seems to be the center point for that. What roles do you see changing with hybrid cloud and software defined data center and user computing? >> Well I think sort of the theme of our conference is defy convention. Right and why do we do that? Because we really see that the, you know, the virtual admin and the virtual infrastructure that they have really become the center of IT. Now we need the competence of networking, the security guys, the database guys, but that now has to happen in the context, right, of a virtualized environment. DBA doesn't get to control his unique infrastructure. The Hadoop guy doesn't get his own unique infrastructure. They're all just workloads that run on this virtualized infrastructure that is increasingly adept and adaptable, right, to these different workload areas and that's what we see going forward as we reach into these new areas and the virtual admin, he has to go make best buddies with the networking guy and say, "Let me talk to you about virtual networking "and how we're going to cross between the virtual overlay "domain and the physical domain and how these things "are going to stitch together for making your job better "right, and delivering a better solution "for our line of business and for our customers." >> One thing you did to defy convention is get on stage with Marc Andreessen. So I want to talk about that a little bit. You guys had I would call it, you know, slight disagreements and, into the future. >> Just a little. >> But I thought you were kind to him. And he said, you know, "No startup that I work with "is going to buy any servers." And I thought you were going to add, no never mind. I won't even go there. (group laughs) I won't even go there, I want to be friends. No so talk about that a little bit, that discussion that you had. Your view of the world and Marc's. How do you respond to that statement? Do they grow up into VMWare customers? Is that the obvious answer? >> I mean I have a lot of regard. You know, Marc and I have known each other for probably close to two decades now and you know, we partnered and sparred together for a long time and he's a smart, successful guy and I appreciate his opinions. You know, but he takes a very narrow view, right, of a venture seed fund, right, who is optimizing cashflow, and why would they spend capital on cashflow when they can go get it as a service? That's exactly the right thing for a very early stage startup company to do in most cases, right? Marc driving his customers to do that makes a lot of sense, but at the end of the day, right, if you want to reach into enterprise customers, you got to deliver enterprise services, right? You got to be able to scale these things. You got to be cost-effective at these things and then all the other aspects of governance, SLAs, etc. that we already talked about. So in that view, I think Marc's view is very perspective. >> Also Zynga and those guys, when they grew up on Amazon, they went right to bare metals as soon as they started scale. >> They had to bring it back in right 'cause they needed the SLAs, they needed the cost structures. They wanted to have the controls of some of those applications. >> And rental is more expensive at the end of the day. >> There you go. Somebody's got to pay the margins, right, you know, on top of that, to the providers so you know, I appreciate the perspective, but to me it is very narrow and periconchal to that point of view and I think the industry is much broader and things like policy and regulation are going to take decades, right? Not years, you know, multiple decades for these things to change and roll out to enable us a mostly public cloud world ever, right, and that's why I say I think the hybrid is not a waystation, right? It is the right balance point that gives customers flexibility to meet their business demands across the range of things and Marc and I obviously, we're quite in disagreement over that particular point. >> And John once again, Nick Carr missed the mark. We made a lot of money. >> I think Marc Andreessen wants to put a lot of money into that book. Everyone could be the next Facebook where you you know, you build your own and I think that's not a reality in enterprise. They kind of want to be like Facebook-like applications, but I wanted to ask you about automation. So we talked to a lot of customers here in theCUBE and we all asked them a question. Automation orchestration's at the top of the stack. They all want it, but they all say they have different processes and you really can't have a general purpose software approach. So Dave and I were commenting last night when we got back after the NetApp event was you know, you and Paul Murray were talking in 2010 around this hardened top when you introduced that stack and with infrastructure as a service, is there a hardened top where functionality is more important than which hardware you buy so you can enable some of those service catalogs, some of those agility features in automation because every customer will have a different process to be automated. >> Yeah. >> And how do you do that without human intervention? So where is that hardened top now? I mean is it platform as a service or is it still at the infrastructure as a service model? >> Yeah, I think clearly the line between infrastructure as a service and platform as a service will blur, right, and you know, it's not really clear where you can quite draw that line. Also as we make infrastructure more application aware, right, and have more application development services associated with it, that line will blur even more. So I think it's going to be hard to call, you know, "Here's that simple line associated with it." We'd also argue that in this world that customers, they have heterogeneous tools that they need to work with. Some will have bought in a big way into some of the legacy tools and as much as we're going to try help them move past some of those brittle environments, well that takes a long time as well. I'd also say that you know, it's the age of APIS, not UIs, and for us it's very much to expose our value through programmatic interfaces so customers truly can have the flexibility to integrate those and give them more choice even as we're trying to build a more deeply integrated and automated stack that meets a general set of needs for customers. >> So that begs the question, at the top of the stack where end user computing's going to sit and you're going to advance that piece, what's, what's the to do item for you? What needs to happen there? Is it, on a scale of one to 10, 10 being fully baked out, where is it, what are the white spaces that need to be tweaked either by partners or by VMWare? >> Yeah and I think we're pretty quickly finishing the stack with regard to the traditional PC environments and I think the amount of work to do for the mobile environment is still quite enormous as we go forward and in that, you know, we're excited about Horizon getting some good uptake, a number of partner announcements this week, but there's a lot to be done in that space because people want to be able to secure apps, provision apps, deprovision apps, have secure work spaces, social experiences, a rich range of integrations to the authentication devices associated with it to be able to have applications that are developed in that environment that access this hybrid infrastructure effectively over time, be able to self-compose those applications, put them into enterprise, right, stores and operations, be able to access this big data infrastructure. There's a whole lot of work to be done in that space and I think that'll keep us busy for quite a number of years. >> This is great. We're here with Pat Gelsinger inside theCUBE. We could keep rolling until we get to the hook, but a couple more final questions is the analogy of cloud has always been like the grid, electricity. You kind of hinted to this earlier. I mean is that a fair comparison? The electricity's kind of clean and stable. We have an actual national grid. It doesn't have bad data and hackers coming through it so is that a fair view of cloud to kind of look, talk about plugging electricity in the wall for IT. >> I think that is so trite, right? It came up in the panel we had with Andreessen, Bechtolsheim, Graeme, and myself because you know, it's so standardized. 120 volts AC right and hey you know, maybe it gets distributed as four, 440, three phase, but you know, it is so standardized. It hasn't moved. Sockets standards, right, you're done. Think how fast this cloud world is evolving. Right the line between IA as in PaaS as we just touched upon, the services that are being offered on top of it. >> Security, security. >> Yeah, yeah, all these different things. To me, it is such a trite, simple analogy that has become so used and abused in the process that I think it leads people to such wrong conclusions right, about what we're doing and the innovation that's going on here and the potential that we're going to offer. So I hope that every one of our competitors takes that and says, "That's the right model." Because I think it leads them to exactly the wrong conclusion. >> I couldn't agree more. The big switch is a big myth. I wanted to get tactical for a minute. I listened to your conference calls. I can't wait to read the transcript. I just go, I got to listen to the calls, but just observing those and the conversations around here, I just wanted to ask you. I always ask CEOs, "What keeps you up at night?" They always say execution so let's focus on execution in the next 12 to 18 months. I came up with the following. "To maintain dominance in vSphere, "get revenue beyond vSphere, "broaden end user license agreements, "increase end user computing adoption "and proof points around hybrid cloud." Are those the big ones? Did I miss anything? >> That's a good list. >> Yeah? >> That's a good list. >> So those are the things an observer should watch in let's say 12 to 18 months of indicators of success and of what you're doing and what you're driving. >> Yeah and you know, clearly inside of that, with SDDC, obviously we think this environment for networking, right, and what we've really, I'll say delivered that. That would be one in particular inside of that category that we would call out you know, with regard to our hybrid cloud strategy. It's clearly globalizing that platform. Right, we announced Savvis here, but we need to make this available on a global basis. You go to an enterprise customer and they're going to say, "I need services in Japan, I need services in Singapore. "I need to be able to operate in a global basis." So clearly having a platform, building out the services on top of it is another key aspect of building those hybrid user cases and more of the value on top of it and then in the EUC space, we touched a bit on the mobile thing already. >> So we'll have Martin on later, but his PowerPoint demonstration. >> What a rockstar, what a rockstar. >> He is a rockstar and we've had him on before. He's fantastic, but his PowerPoint demonstration is very simple, made it seem so simple. It's not going to be that easy to virtualize the network. Can you talk about the headwinds there and the challenges that you have and the things that you have to do to actually make progress there and really move the needle? >> Yeah it really sort of boils down in two aspects. One is we are suggesting that there will be a software layer for networking that is far more scalable, agile and robust than you can do in a physical networking layer. That's a pretty tall order, right? I need to be able to scale to tens, hundreds, millions of VMs, right? I need to be able to scale to terabytes of cross-sectional packet flow through this. I need to be able to deliver services on top of this, right, that truly allow firewalls, load balancers, right, IDSes, all of those things to be agile, scale. Yeah, it is ambitious. >> Ambitious. >> This is, right, the most radical, architectural statements in networking in the last 20 or 30 years and that's what gets Martin passionate. So there's a lot of technical scale and we really feel good about what we've done, right, but being able to prove that with robust scalability, right, for which like the Hyper-Visor, it is more reliable than hardware today, in being able to make that same statement about NSX that just like ESX, it is better than hardware, right, in terms of its reliability, its resilience. That's an important thing for us to accomplish technically in that space, but then the other pieces, showing customer value, right? Getting those early customers and what a powerful picture. GE, Citigroup and eBay, right? It's like wow, right? These are massive customers, right, and being able to prove the value and the use cases in the customer settings, right, and if we do those two things, you know, we think that truly we all have accomplished something very very special in the networking domain. >> Pat, talk about the innovation strategy. You've been now a year under your belt at VMWare and you were obviously with EMC and Intel and we mentioned on theCUBE many times, cadence of Moore's Law was kind of the culture of Intel. Why don't you tell us about the innovation strategy of VMWare going forward, your vision, but also talk about the culture and talk about the one thing that VMWare has from a culture that makes it unique and what is that unique feature of the VMWare culture? >> We spent time as a team talking about what is it that drives our innovation, that drives our passion, and clearly as we've talked about our values as a team, it is very much about this passion for technology and passion for customers and how those two coming together, right, with fundamental disruptive "wow" kind of technologies where people just say, like they did when they first used ESX and they say, "Wow, I just didn't ever envision "that you could possibly do that." And that's the experience that we want to deliver over and over again, right, so you know, hugely disruptive powerful software driven virtualization technologies for these domains, but doing it in a way that customers just fall in love with our technologies and you know as, I got a note from Sanjay and I just asked him, "You know, what do you think of VMWorld?" And he said, right, "It is like a cult geek fest." Right, because there's just this deep passion around what people do with our technology, right, and they're not even at that point, they're not customers, they're not partners. They are deeply aligned passionate zealots around what we are doing to make their lives so much more powerful, so much more enabled, right, and ultimately, a lot more fun. >> People say it's like being a car buff. You know, you got to know the engine, you want to know the speeds and feeds. It is a tech culture. >> Yeah, it is absolutely great. >> Pat, thanks for coming on theCUBE. We scan spend a lot of time with you. I know we went a little over. I appreciate your time. Always great to see you. >> Great to see you too. >> Looking good. >> Thank you for that. >> Tech Athlete Pat Gelsinger touching all the bases here. We saw him last night at AT&T Park. Great event here, VMWare World 2013. This is theCUBE. We'll be right back with our next guest after this short break. Pat Gelsinger, CEO on theCUBE.