>> Hey everyone. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage day two of CloudNative Security CON 23. Lisa Martin here in studio in Palo Alto with John Furrier. John, we've had some great conversations. I've had a global event. This was a global event. We had Germany on yesterday. We had the Boston Studio. We had folks on the ground in Seattle. Lot of great conversations, a lot of great momentum at this event. What is your number one takeaway with this inaugural event? >> Well, first of all, our coverage with our CUBE alumni experts coming in remotely this remote event for us, I think this event as an inaugural event stood out because one, it was done very carefully and methodically from the CNCF. I think they didn't want to overplay their hand relative to breaking out from CUBE CON So Kubernetes success and CloudNative development has been such a success and that event and ecosystem is booming, right? So that's the big story is they have the breakout event and the question was, was it a good call? Was it successful? Was it going to, would the dog hunt as they say, in this case, I think the big takeaway is that it was successful by all measures. One, people enthusiastic and confident that this has the ability to stand on its own and still contribute without taking away from the benefits and growth of Kubernetes CUBE CON and CloudNative console. So that was the key. Hallway conversations, the sessions all curated and developed properly to be different and focused for that reason. So I think the big takeaway is that the CNCF did a good job on how they rolled this out. Again, it was very intimate event small reminds me of first CUBE CON in Seattle, kind of let's test it out. Let's see how it goes. Again, clearly it was people successful and they understood why they're doing it. And as we commented out in our earlier segments this is not something new. Amazon Web Services has re:Invent and re:Inforce So a lot of parallels there. I see there. So I think good call. CNCF did the right thing. I think this has legs. And then as Dave pointed out, Dave Vellante, on our last keynote analysis was the business model of the hackers is better than the business model of the industry. They're making more money, it costs less so, you know, they're playing offense and the industry playing defense. That has to change. And as Dave pointed out we have to make the cost of hacking and breaches and cybersecurity higher so that the business model crashes. And I think that's the strategic imperative. So I think the combination of the realities of the market globally and open source has to go faster. It's good to kind of decouple and be highly cohesive in the focus. So to me that's the big takeaway. And then the other one is, is that there's a lot more security problems still unresolved. The emphasis on developers productivity is at risk here, if not solved. You saw supply chain software, again, front and center and then down in the weeds outside of Kubernetes, things like BIND and DNS were brought up. You're seeing the Linux kernel. Really important things got to be paid attention to. So I think very good call, very good focus. >> I would love if for us to be able to, as the months go on talk to some of the practitioners that actually got to attend. There were 72 sessions, that's a lot of content for a small event. Obviously to your point, very well curated. We did hear from some folks yesterday who were just excited to get the community back together in person. To your point, having this dedicated focus on CloudNativesecurity is incredibly important. You talked about, you know, the offense defense, the fact that right now the industry needs to be able to pivot from being on defense to being on offense. This is a challenging thing because it is so lucrative for hackers. But this seems to be from what we've heard in the last couple days, the right community with the right focus to be able to make that pivot. >> Yeah, and I think if you look at the success of Kubernetes, 'cause again we were there at theCUBE first one CUBE CON, the end user stories really drove end user participation. Drove the birth of Kubernetes. Left some of these CloudNative early adopters early pioneers that were using cloud hyperscale really set the table for CloudNative CON. I think you're seeing that here with this CloudNative SecurityCON where I think we're see a lot more end user stories because of the security, the hairs on fire as we heard from Madrona Ventures, you know, as they as an investor you have a lot of use cases out there where customers are leaning in with getting the rolling up their sleeves, working with open source. This has to be the driver. So I'm expecting to see the next level of SecurityCON to be end user focused. Much more than vendor focused. Where CUBECON was very end user focused and then attracted all the vendors in that grew the industry. I expect the similar pattern here where end user action will be very high at the beginning and that will essentially be the rising tide for the vendors to be then participating. So I expect almost a similar trajectory to CUBECON. >> That's a good path that it needs to all be about all the end users. One of the things I'm curious if what you heard was what are some of the key factors that are going to move CloudNative Security forward? What did you hear the last two days? >> I heard that there's a lot of security problems and no one wants to kind of brag about this but there's a lot of under the hood stuff that needs to get taken care of. So if automation scales, and we heard that from one of the startups we've just interviewed. If automation and scale continues to happen and with the business model of the hackers still booming, security has to be refactored quickly and there's going to be an opportunity structurally to use the cloud for that. So I think it's a good opportunity now to get dedicated focus on fixing things like the DNS stuff old school under the hood, plumbing, networking protocols. You're going to start to see this super cloud-like environment emerge where data's involved, everything's happening and so security has to be re imagined. And I think there's a do over opportunity for the security industry with CloudNative driving that. And I think this is the big thing that I see as an opportunity to, from a story standpoint from a coverage standpoint is that it's a do-over for security. >> One of the things that we heard yesterday is that there's a lot of it, it's a pretty high percentage of organizations that either don't have a SOCK or have a very primitive SOCK. Which kind of surprised me that at this day and age the risks are there. We talked about that today's focus and the keynote was a lot about the software supply chain and what's going on there. What did you hear in terms of the appetite for organizations through the voice of the practitioner to say, you know what guys, we got to get going because there's going to be the hackers are they're here. >> I didn't hear much about that in the coverage 'cause we weren't in the hallways. But from reading the tea leaves and talking to the folks on the ground, I think there's an implied like there's an unlimited money from customers. So it's a very robust from the data infrastructure stack building we cover with the angel investor Kane you're seeing data infrastructure's going to be part of the solution here 'cause data and security go hand in hand. So everyone's got basically checkbook wide open everyone wants to have the answer. And we commented that the co-founder of Palo Alto you had on our coverage yesterday was saying that you know, there's no real platform, there's a lot of tools out there. People will buy anything. So there's still a huge appetite and spend in security but the answer's not going to more tool sprawling. It's going to more platform auto, something that enables automation, fix some of the underlying mechanisms involved and fix it fast. So to me I think it's going to be a robust monetary opportunity because of the demand on the business side. So I don't see that changing at all and I think it's going to accelerate. >> It's a great point in terms of the demand for the business side because as we know as we said yesterday, the next Log4j is out there. It's not a matter of if this happens again it's when, it's the extent, it's how frequent we know that. So organizations all the way up to the board have to be concerned about brand reputation. Nobody wants to be the next big headline in terms of breaches and customer data being given to hackers and hackers making all this money on that. That has to go all the way up to the board and there needs to be alignment between the board and the executives at the organization in terms of how they're going to deal with security, and now. This is not a conversation that can wait. Yeah, I mean I think the five C's we talked about yesterday the culture of companies, the cloud is an enabler, you've got clusters of servers and capabilities, Kubernetes clusters, you've got code and you've got all kinds of, you know, things going on there. Each one has elements that are at risk for hacking, right? So that to me is something that's super important. I think that's why the focus on security's different and important, but it's not going to fork the main event. So that's why I think the spin out was, spinout, or the new event is a good call by the CNCF. >> One of the things today that struck me they're talking a lot about software supply chain and that's been in the headlines for quite a while now. And a stat that was shared this morning during the keynote just blew my brains that there was a 742% increase in the software supply chain attacks occurring over the last three years. It's during Covid times, that is a massive increase. The threat landscape is just growing so amorphously but organizations need to help dial that down because their success and the health of the individuals and the end users is at risk. Well, Covid is an environment where everyone's kind of working at home. So there was some disruption to infrastructure. Also, when you have change like that, there's opportunities for hackers, they'll arbitrage that big time. But I think general the landscape is changing. There's no perimeter anymore. It's CloudNative, this is where it is and people who are moving from old IT to CloudNative, they're at risk. That's why there's tons of ransomware. That's why there's tons of risk. There's just hygiene, from hygiene to architecture and like Nick said from Palo Alto, the co-founder, there's not a lot of architecture in security. So yeah, people have bulked up their security teams but you're going to start to see much more holistic thinking around redoing security. I think that's the opportunity to propel CloudNative, and I think you'll see a lot more coming out of this. >> Did you hear any specific information on some of the CloudNative projects going on that really excite you in terms of these are the right people going after the right challenges to solve in the right direction? >> Well I saw the sessions and what jumped out to me at the sessions was it's a lot of extensions of what we heard at CUBECON and I think what they want to do is take out the big items and break 'em out in security. Kubescape was one we just covered. They want to get more sandbox type stuff into the security side that's very security focused but also plays well with CUBECON. So we'll hear more about how this plays out when we're in Amsterdam coming up in April for CUBECON to hear how that ecosystem, because I think it'll be kind of a relief to kind of decouple security 'cause that gives more focus to the stakeholders in CUBECON. There's a lot of issues going on there and you know service meshes and whatnot. So it's a lot of good stuff happening. >> A lot of good stuff happening. One of the things that'll be great about CUBECON is that we always get the voice of the customer. We get vendors coming on with the voice of the customer talking about and you know in that case how they're using Kubernetes to drive the business forward. But it'll be great to be able to pull in some of the security conversations that spin out of CloudNative Security CON to understand how those end users are embracing the technology. You brought up I think Nir Zuk from Palo Alto Networks, one of the themes there when Dave and I did their Ignite event in December was, of 22, was really consolidation. There are so many tools out there that organizations have to wrap their heads around and they need to be able to have the right enablement content which this event probably delivered to figure out how do we consolidate security tools effectively, efficiently in a way that helps dial down our risk profile because the risks just seem to keep growing. >> Yeah, and I love the technical nature of all that and I think this is going to be the continued focus. Chris Aniszczyk who's the CTO listed like E and BPF we covered with Liz Rice is one of the most three important points of the conference and it's just, it's very nerdy and that's what's needed. I mean it's technical. And again, there's no real standards bodies anymore. The old days developers I think are super important to be the arbiters here. And again, what I love about the CNCF is that they're developer focused and we heard developer first even in security. So you know, this is a sea change and I think, you know, developers' choice will be the standards bodies. >> Lisa: Yeah, yeah. >> They decide the future. >> Yeah. >> And I think having the sandboxing and bringing this out will hopefully accelerate more developer choice and self-service. >> You've been talking about kind of putting the developers in the driver's seat as really being the key decision makers for a while. Did you hear information over the last couple of days that validates that? >> Yeah, absolutely. It's clearly the fact that they did this was one. The other one is, is that engineering teams and dev teams and script teams, they're blending together. It's not just separate silos and the ones that are changing their team dynamics, again, back to the culture are winning. And I think this has to happen. Security has to be embedded everywhere in making it frictionless and to provide kind of the guardrail so developers don't slow down. And I think where security has become a drag or an anchor or a blocker has been just configuration of how the organization's handling it. So I think when people recognize that the developers are in charge and they're should be driving the application development you got to make sure that's secure. And so that's always going to be friction and I think whoever does it, whoever unlocks that for the developer to go faster will win. >> Right. Oh, that's what I'm sure magic to a developer's ear is the ability to go faster and be able to focus on co-development in a secure fashion. What are some of the things that you're excited about for CUBECON. Here we are in February, 2023 and CUBECON is just around the corner in April. What are some of the things that you're excited about based on the groundswell momentum that this first inaugural CloudNative Security CON is generating from a community, a culture perspective? >> I think this year's going to be very interesting 'cause we have an economic challenge globally. There's all kinds of geopolitical things happening. I think there's going to be very entrepreneurial activity this year more than ever. I think you're going to see a lot more innovative projects ideas hitting the table. I think it's going to be a lot more entrepreneurial just because the cycle we're in. And also I think the acceleration of mainstream deployments of out of the CNCF's main event CUBECON will happen. You'll see a lot more successes, scale, more clarity on where the security holes are or aren't. Where the benefits are. I think containers and microservices are continuing to surge. I think the Cloud scale hyperscale as Amazon, Azure, Google will be more aggressive. I think AI will be a big theme this year. I think you can see how data is going to infect some of the innovation thinking. I'm really excited about the data infrastructure because it powers a lot of things in the Cloud. So I think the Amazon Web Services, Azure next level gen clouds will impact what happens in the CloudNative foundation. >> Did you have any conversations yesterday or today with respect to AI and security? Was that a focus of anybody's? Talk to me about that. >> Well, I didn't hear any sessions on AI but we saw some demos on stage. But they're teasing out that this is an augmentation to their mission, right? So I think a lot of people are looking at AI as, again, like I always said there's the naysayers who think it's kind of a gimmick or nothing to see here, and then some are just going to blown away. I think the people who are alpha geeks and the industry connect the dots and understand that AI is going to be an accelerant to a lot of heavy lifting that was either manual, you know, hard to do things that was boring or muck as they say. I think that's going to be where you'll see the AI stories where it's going to accelerate either ways to make security better or make developers more confident and productive. >> Or both. >> Yeah. So definitely AI will be part of it. Yeah, definitely. One of the things too that I'm wondering if, you know, we talk about CloudNative and the goal of it, the importance of it. Do you think that this event, in terms of what we were able to see, obviously being remote the event going on in Seattle, us being here in Palo Alto and Boston and guests on from Seattle and Germany and all over, did you hear the really the validation for why CloudNative Security why CloudNative is important for organizations whether it's a bank or a hospital or a retailer? Is that validation clear and present? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think it was implied. I don't think there was like anyone's trying to debate that. I think this conference was more of it's assumed and they were really trying to push the ability to make security less defensive, more offensive and more accelerated into the solving the problems with the businesses that are out there. So clearly the CloudNative community understands where the security challenges are and where they're emerging. So having a dedicated event will help address that. And they've got great co-chairs too that put it together. So I think that's very positive. >> Yeah. Do you think, is it possible, I mean, like you said several times today so eloquently the industry's on the defense when it comes to security and the hackers are on the offense. Is it really possible to make that switch or obviously get some balances. As technology advances and industry gets to take advantage of that, so do the hackers, is that balance achievable? >> Absolutely. I mean, I think totally achievable. The question's going to be what's the environment going to be like? And I remember as context to understanding whether it's viable or not, is to look at, just go back 13 years ago, I remember in 2010 Amazon was viewed as an unsecure environment. Everyone's saying, "Oh, the cloud is not secure." And I remember interviewing Steve Schmidt at AWS and we discussed specifically how Amazon Cloud was being leveraged by hackers. They made it more complex for the hackers. And he said, "This is just the beginning." It's kind of like barbed wire on a fence. It's yeah, you're not going to climb it so people can get over it. And so since then what's happened is the Cloud has become more secure than on premises for a lot of either you know, personnel reasons, culture reasons, not updating, you know, from patches to just being insecure to be more insecure. So that to me means that the flip the script can be flipped. >> Yeah. And I think with CloudNative they can build in automation and code to solve some of these problems and make it more complex for the hacker. >> Lisa: Yes. >> And increase the cost. >> Yeah, exactly. Make it more complex. Increase the cost. That'll be in interesting journey to follow. So John, here we are early February, 2023 theCUBE starting out strong as always. What year are we in, 12? Year 12? >> 13th year >> 13! What's next for theCUBE? What's coming up that excites you? >> Well, we're going to do a lot more events. We got the theCUBE in studio that I call theCUBE Center as kind of internal code word, but like, this is more about getting the word out that we can cover events remotely as events are starting to change with hybrid, digital is going to be a big part of that. So I think you're going to see a lot more CUBE on location. We're going to do, still do theCUBE and have theCUBE cover events from the studio to get deeper perspective because we can then bring people in remote through our our studio team. We can bring our CUBE alumni in. We have a corpus of content and experts to bring to table. So I think the coverage will be increased. The expertise and data will be flowing through theCUBE and so Cube Center, CUBE CUBE Studio. >> Lisa: Love it. >> Will be a integral part of our coverage. >> I love that. And we have such great conversations with guests in person, but also virtually, digitally as well. We still get the voices of the practitioners and the customers and the vendors and the partner ecosystem really kind of lauded loud and clear through theCUBE megaphone as I would say. >> And of course getting the clips out there, getting the highlights. >> Yeah. >> Getting more stories. No stories too small for theCUBE. We can make it easy to get the best content. >> The best content. John, it's been fun covering CloudNative security CON with you with you. And Dave and our guests, thank you so much for the opportunity and looking forward to the next event. >> John: All right. We'll see you at Amsterdam. >> Yeah, I'll be there. We want to thank you so much for watching TheCUBES's two day coverage of CloudNative Security CON 23. We're live in Palo Alto. You are live wherever you are and we appreciate your time and your view of this event. For John Furrier, Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching guys. We'll see you at the next show.

(energetic music plays) >> Lisa: Hey everyone, we're so glad you're here with us. theCUBE is covering Cloud Native Security Con 23. Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. This is our second day of coverage of the event. We've had some great conversations with a lot of intellectual, exciting folks, as you know cuz you've been watching. John and I are very pleased to welcome back one of our alumni to theCUBE Taylor Dolezal joins us the head of ecosystem at CNCF. Taylor, welcome back to theCUBE. Great to see you. >> Taylor: Hey everybody, great to see you again. >> Lisa: So you are on the ground in Seattle. We're jealous. We've got fomo as John would say. Talk to us about, this is a inaugural event. We were watching Priyanka keynote yesterday. Seemed like a lot of folks there, 72 sessions a lot of content, a lot of discussions. What's the buzz, what's the reception of this inaugural event from your perspective? >> Taylor: So it's been really fantastic. I think the number one thing that has come out of this conference so far is that it's a wonderful chance to come together and for people to see one another. It's, it's been a long time that we've kind of had that opportunity to be able to interact with folks or you know, it's just a couple months since last Cube Con. But this is truly a different vibe and it's nice to have that focus on security. We're seeing a lot of folks within different organizations work through different problems and then finally have a vendor neutral space in which to talk about all of those contexts and really raise everybody up with all this new knowledge and new talking points, topics, and different facets of knowledge. >> John: Taylor, we were joking on our yesterday's summary of the keynotes, Dave Vellante and I, and the guests, Lisa and I, about the CNCF having an event operating system, you know, very decoupled highly cohesive events, strung together beautifully through the Linux Foundation, you know, kind of tongue in cheek but it was kind of fun to play on words because it's a very technical community. But the business model of, of hackers is booming. The reality of businesses booming and Cloud Native is the preferred developer environment for the future application. So the emphasis, it's very clear that this is a good move to do and targeting the community around security's a solid move. Amazon's done it with reinforce and reinvent. We see that Nice segmentation. What's the goal? Because this is really where it connects to Cube Con and Cloud Native Con as well because this shift left there too. But here it's very much about hardcore Cloud Native security. What's your positioning on this? Am I getting it right or is there is that how you guys see it? >> Taylor: Yeah, so, so that's what we've see that's what we were talking about as well as we were thinking on breaking this event out. So originally this event was a co-located event during the Cube Con windows in both Europe and North America. And then it just was so consistently popular clearly a topic that people wanted to talk, which is good that people want to talk of security. And so when we saw this massive continued kind of engagement, we wanted to break this off into its own conference. When we were going through that process internally, like you had mentioned the events team is just phenomenal to work with and they, I love how easy that they make it for us to be able to do these kinds of events too though we wanted to talk through how we differentiate this event from others and really what's changed for us and kind of how we see this space is that we didn't really see any developer-centric open source kinds of conferences. Ones that were really favoring of the developer and focus on APIs and ways in which to implement these things across all of your workloads within your organization. So that's truly what we're looking to go for here during these, all of these sessions. And that's how it's been playing out so far which has been really great to see. >> John: Taylor, I want to ask you on the ecosystem obviously the built-in ecosystem at CNCF.IO with Cube Cons Cloud Cons there, this is a new ecosystem opportunity to add more people that are security focused. Is their new entrance coming into the fold and what's been the reaction? >> Taylor: So short answer is yes we've seen a huge uptick across our vendor members and those are people that are creating Cloud offerings and selling those and working with others to implement them as well as our end users. So people consuming Cloud Native projects and using them to power core parts of their business. We have gotten a lot of data from groups like IBM and security, IBM security and put 'em on institute. They gave us a cost of data breach report that Priyanka mentioned and talked about 43% of those organizations haven't started or in the early stages of updating security practices of their cloud environments and then here on the ground, you know, talking through some best practices and really sharing those out as well. So it's, I've gotten to hear pieces and parts of different conversations and and I'm certain we'll hear more about those soon but it's just really been great to, to hear everybody with that main focus of, hey, there's more that we can do within the security space and you know, let's let's help one another out on that front just because it is such a vast landscape especially in the security space. >> Lisa: It's a huge landscape. And to your point earlier, Taylor it's everyone has the feeling that it's just so great to be back together again getting folks out of the silos that they've been operating in for such a long time. But I'd love to get some of your, whatever you can share in terms of some of the Cloud Native security projects that you've heard about over the last day or so. Anything exciting that you think is really demonstrating the value already and this inaugural event? >> Taylor: Yes, so I I've been really excited to hear a lot of, personally I've really liked the talks around EBPF. There are a whole bunch of projects utilizing that as far as runtime security goes and actually getting visibility into your workloads and being able to see things that you do expect and things that you don't expect and how to remediate those. And then I keep hearing a lot of talks about open policy agents and projects like Caverno around you know, how do we actually automate different policies or within regulated industries, how do we actually start to solve those problems? So I've heard even more around CNCF projects and other contexts that have come up but truly most of them have been around the telemetry space EBPF and, and quite a few others. So really great to, to see all those projects choosing something to bind to and making it that much more accessible for folks to implement or build on top of as well. >> John: I love the reference you guys had just the ChatGPT that was mentioned in the keynote yesterday and also the reference to Dan Kaminsky who was mentioned on the reference to DNS and Bind, lot of root level security going on. It seems like this is like a Tiger team event where all the top alpha security gurus come together, Priyanka said, experts bottoms up, developer first practitioners, that's the vibe. Is that kind of how you guys want it to be more practitioners hardcore? >> Taylor: Absolutely, absolutely. I think that when it comes to security, we really want to help. It's definitely a grassroots movement. It's great to have the people that have such a deep understanding of certain security, just bits of knowledge really when it comes to EBPF. You know, we have high surveillance here that we're talking things through. Falco is here with Sysdig and so it it's great to have all of these people here, though I have seen a good spread of folks that are, you know, most people have started their security journey but they're not where they want to be. And so people that are starting at a 2 0 1, 3 0 1, 4 0 1 level of understanding definitely seeing a good spread of knowledge on that front. But it's really, it's been great to have folks from all varying experiences, but then to have the expertise of the folks that are writing these specifications and pushing the boundaries of what's possible with security to to ensure that we're all okay and updated on that front too, I think was most notable yesterday. Like you had said >> Lisa: Sorry Taylor, when we think of security, again this is an issue that, that organizations in every industry face, nobody is immune to this. We can talk about the value in it for the hackers in terms of ransomware alone for example. But you mentioned a stat that there's a good amount of organizations that are really either early in their security journeys or haven't started yet which kind of sounds a bit scary given the landscape and how much has changed in the last couple of years. But it sounds like on the good news front it isn't too late for organizations. Talk a little bit about some of the recommendations and best practices for those organizations who are behind the curve knowing that the next attack is going to happen. >> Taylor: Absolutely. So fantastic question. I think that when it comes to understanding the fact that people need to implement security and abide by best practices, it's like I I'm sure that many of us can agree on that front, you know, hopefully all of us. But when it comes to actually implementing that, that's I agree with you completely. That's where it's really difficult to find where where do I start, where do I actually look at? And there are a couple of answers on that front. So within the CNTF ecosystem we have a technical action group security, so tag security and they have a whole bunch of working groups that cover different facets of the Cloud Native experience. So if you, for example, are concerned about runtime security or application delivery concerns within there, those are some really good places to find people knowledgeable about, that even when the conference isn't going on to get a sense of what's going on. And then TAG security has also published recently version two of their security report which is free accessible online. They can actually look through that, see what some of the recent topics are and points of focus and of interest are within our community. There are also other organizations like Open SSF which is taking a deeper dive into security. You know, initially kind of having a little bit more of an academic focus on that space and then now getting further into things around software bill materials or SBOMs supply chain security and other topics as well. >> John: Well we love you guys doing this. We think it's very big deal. We think it's important. We're starting to see events post COVID take a certain formation, you know joking aside about the event operating systems smaller events are happening, but they're tied together. And so this is key. And of course the critical need is our businesses are under siege with threats, ransomware, security challenges, that's IT moves to Cloud Native, not everyone's moved over yet. So that's in progress. So there's a huge business imperative and the hackers have a business model. So this isn't like pie in the sky, this is urgent. So, that being said, how do you see this developing from who should attend the next one or who are you looking for to be involved to get input from you guys are open arms and very diverse and great great culture there, but who are you looking for? What's the makeup persona that you hope to attract and nurture and grow? >> Taylor: Absolutely. I, think that when it comes to trying the folks that we're looking for the correct answer is it varies you know, from, you know, you're asking Priyanka or our executive director or Chris Aniszczyk our CTO, I work mostly with the end users, so for me personally I really want to see folks that are operating within our ecosystem and actually pulling these down, these projects down and using them and sharing those stories. Because there are people creating these projects and contributing to them might not always have an idea of how they're used or how they can be exploited too. A lot of these groups that I work with like Mercedes or Intuit for example, they're out there in the world using these, these projects and getting a sense for, you know, what can come up. And by sharing that knowledge I think that's what's most important across the board. So really looking for those stories to be told and novel ways in which people are trying to exploit security and attacking the supply chain, or building applications, or just things we haven't thought about. So truly that that developer archetype is really helpful to have the consumers, the end users, the folks that are actually using these. And then, yeah, and I'm truly anywhere knowledgeable about security or that wants to learn more >> John: Super important, we're here to help you scale those stories up whatever you need, send them our way. We're looking forward to getting those. This is a super important movement getting the end users who are on the front lines bringing it back into the open, building, more software, making it secure and verified, all super important. We really appreciate the mission you guys are on and again we're here to help. So send those stories our way. >> Taylor: Cool, cool. We couldn't do it without you. Yeah, just everyone contributing, everyone sharing the news. This is it's people, people is the is the true operating system of our ecosystem. So really great to, really great to share. >> Lisa: That's such a great point Taylor. It is all about people. You talked about this event having a different vibe. I wanted to learn a little bit more about that as we, as we wrap up because there's so much cultural change that's required for organizations to evolve their security practices. And so people of course are at the center of culture. Talk a little bit about why that vibe is different and do you think that yeah, it's finally time. Everyone's getting on the same page here we're understanding, we're learning from each other. >> Taylor: Yes. So, so to kind of answer that, I think it's really a focus on, there's this term shift left and shift right. And talking about where do we actually put security in the mix as it comes to people adopting this and and figuring out where things go. And if you keep shifting at left, that meaning that the developers should care more deeply about this and a deeper understanding of all of these, you know, even if it's, even if they don't understand how to put it together, maybe understand a little bit about it or how these topics and, and facets of knowledge work. But you know, like with anything, if you shift everything off to one side or the other that's also not going to be efficient. You know, you want a steady stream of knowledge flowing throughout your whole organization. So I think that that's been something that has been a really interesting topic and, and hearing people kind of navigate and try to get through, especially groups that have had, you know, deployed an app and it's going to be around for 40 years as well. So I think that those are some really interesting and unique areas of focus that I've come up on the floor and then in a couple of the sessions here >> Lisa: There's got to be that, that balance there. Last question as we wrap the last 30 seconds or so what are you excited about given the success and the momentum of day one? What excites you about what's ahead for us on day two? >> Taylor: So on day two, I'm really, it's, there's just so many sessions. I think that it was very difficult for me to, you know pick which one I was actually going to go see. There are a lot of favorites that I had kind of doubled up at each of the time so I'm honestly going to be in a lot of the sessions today. So really excited about that. Supply chain security is definitely one that's close to my heart as well but I'm really curious to see what new topics, concepts or novel ideas people have to kind of exploit things. Like one for example is a package is out there it's called Browser Test but somebody came up with one called Bowser Test. Just a very simple misname and then when you go and run that it does a fake kind of like, hey you've been exploited and just even these incorrect name attacks. That's something that is really close and dear to me as well. Kind of hearing about all these wild things people wouldn't think about in terms of exploitation. So really, really excited to hear more stories on that front and better protect myself both at home and within the Cloud Community as I stand these things up. >> Lisa: Absolutely you need to clone yourself so that you can, there's so many different sessions. There needs to be multiple versions of Taylor that you can attend and then you can all get together and talk about and learn. But that's actually a really good problem to have as we mentioned when we started 72 sessions yesterday and today. Lots of great content. Taylor, we thank you for your participation. We thank you for bringing the vibe and the buzz of the event to us and we look forward as well to hearing and seeing what day two brings us today. Thank you so much for your time Taylor. >> Taylor: Thank you for having me. >> John: All right >> Lisa: Right, for our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCube's Day two coverage of Cloud Native Security Con 23. (energetic music plays)

>>Good afternoon and welcome back to Detroit, Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We are live day two of our coverage of Coan Cloud Native Con North America. John, we've had great conversations. Yeah. All day yesterday. Half a day today. So far we're talking all things, Well, not all things Kubernetes so much more than that. We also have to talk about storage and data management solutions for Kubernetes projects, cuz that's obviously critical. >>Yeah, I mean the big trend here is Kubernetes going mainstream has been for a while. The adopt is crossing over, it's crossing the CADs and with that you're seeing security concerns. You're seeing things being gaps being filled. But enterprise grade is really the, the, the story. It's going enterprise, that's managed services, that's professional service, that's basically making things work at scale. This next segment hits that part and we are gonna talk about it in grade length >>With one of our alumni. Moral morale to Molly is back DP and GM of Port Work's Peer Storage. Great to have you back really? >>Yeah, absolutely. Delightful >>To be here. So I was looking on the website, number one in Kubernetes storage. Three years in a row. Yep. Awesome. What's Coworks doing here at KU Con? >>Well, I'll tell you, we, our engineering crew has been so productive and hard at work that I almost can't decide what to kind of tell you. But I thought what, what, what I thought I would do is kind of tell you that we are in forefront of two major trends in the world of Kubernetes. Right? And the, the two trends that I see are one is as a service, so is trend number one. So it's not software eating the world anymore. That's, that's old, old, old news. It's as a service unifying the world. The world wants easy, We all are, you know, subscribers to things like Netflix. We've been using Salesforce or other HR functions. Everything is as a service. And in the world of Kubernetes, it's a sign of that maturity that John was talking about as a platform that now as a service is the big trend. >>And so headline number one, if you will, is that Port Works is leading in the data management world for Kubernetes by providing, we're going all in on easy on as a service. So everything we do, we are satisfying it, right? So if you think, if you think about, if you think about this, that, that there are really, most of the people who are consuming Kubernetes are people who are building platforms for their dev users. And dev users want self service. That's one of the advantages of, of, of Kubernetes. And the more it is service size and made as a service, the more ready to consume it is. And so we are announcing at the show that we have, you know, the basic Kubernetes data management as a service, ha d r as a service. We have backup as a service and we have database as a service. So these are the three major components of data. And all of those are being made available as a service. And in fact, we're offering and announcing at the show our backup as a service freemium version where you can get free forever a terabyte of, of, you know, stuff to do for Kubernetes for forever. >>Congratulations on the announcement. Totally. In line with what the market wants. Developers want Selfer, they wanna also want simplicity by the way they'll leave if they don't like the service. Correct. So that you, you know that before we get into some more specifics, I want Yeah. Ask you on the industry and some of the point solutions you have, what, it's been two years since the acquisition with Pure Storage. Can you just give an update on how it's gone? Obviously as a service, you guys are hitting all your Marks, developers love it. Storage are big part of the game right now as well as these environments. Yeah. What's the update post acquisition two years. You had a great offering Stay right In >>Point Works. Yeah. So look, John, you're, you're, you're a veteran of the industry and have seen lots of acquisitions, right? And I've been acquired twice before myself. So, you know, there's, there's always best practices and poor practices in terms of acquisitions and I'm, you know, really delighted to say I think this, this acquisition has had some of the best practices. Let me just name a couple of them, right? One of them is just cultural fit, right? Cultural fit is great. Entrepreneurs, anybody, it's not just entrepreneurs. Everybody loves to work in a place they enjoy working with, with people that they, you know, thrive when they, when they interact with. And so the cultural fit with, with Pure is fantastic. The other one is the strategic intent that Pure had when they acquired us is still true. And so that goes a long way, you know, in terms of an investment profile, in terms of the ability to kind of leverage assets within the company. So Pure had kind of disrupted the world of storage using Flash and they wanted to disrupt higher up the stack using Kubernetes. And that's kind of been our role inside their strategy. And it's, it's still true. >>So culture, strategic intent. Yeah. Product market fit as well. You were, you weren't just an asset for customers or acquisition and then let the founders go through their next thing. You are part of their growth play. >>Absolutely. Right. The, the beauty of, of the kind of product market fit is, let's talk about the market is we have been always focused on the global two k and that is at the heart of, you know, purest 10,000 strong customer base, right? They have very strong presence in the, in the global two k. And we, we allow them to kind of go to those same folks with, with the offering. >>So satisfying everything that you do. What's for me as a business, whether I'm a financial services organization, I'm a hospital, I'm a retailer, what's in it for me >>As a customer? Yeah. So the, the what's in it for, for me is two things. It's speed and ease of use, which in a way are related. But, but, but you know, one is when something is provided as a service, it's much more consumable. It's instantly ready. It's like instant oatmeal, right? You just get it just ad hot water and it's there. Yep. So the world of of it has moved from owning large data centers, right? That used to be like 25 years ago and running those data centers better than everybody else to move to let me just consume a data center in the form of a cloud, right? So satisfying the cloud part of the data center. Now people are saying, well I expect that for software and services and I don't want it just from the public cloud, I want it from my own IT department. >>This is old news. And so the, the, the big news here is how fast Kubernetes has kind of moved everything. You know, you take a lot of these changes, Kubernetes is a poster child for things happening faster than the last wave. And in the last couple of years I would say that as a service model has really kind of thrived in the world of Kubernetes. And developers want to be able to get it fast. And the second thing is they want to be able to operate it fast. Self-service is the other benefit. Yeah. So speed and self-service are both benefits of, of >>This. Yeah. And, and the thing that's come up clearly in the cube, this is gonna be part of the headlines we'll probably end up getting a lot of highlights from telling my team to make a note of this, is that developers are gonna be be the, the business if you, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, they're not a department that serves the business, they are the business that means Exactly. They have to be more productive. So developer productivity has been the top story. Yes. Security as a serves all these things. These are, these are examples to make developers more productive. But one of the things that came up and I wanna get your reaction to is, is that when you have disruption and, and the storage vision, you know what disruption it means. Cuz there's been a whole discussion around disruptive operations. When storage goes down, you have back m dr and failover. If there's a disruption that changes the nature of invisible infrastructure, developers want invisible infrastructure. That's the future steady state. So if there's a disruption in storage >>Yeah. It >>Can't affect the productivity and the tool chains and the workflows of developers. Yep. Right? So how do you guys look at that? Cuz you're a critical component. Storage is a service is a huge thing. Yeah. Storage has to, has to work seamlessly. And let's keep the developers out of the weeds. >>John. I think what, what what you put your finger on is another huge trend in the world of Kubernetes where at Cube Con, after all, which is really where, where all the leading practitioners both come and the leading vendors are. So here's the second trend that we are leading and, and actually I think it's happening not just with us, but with other, for folks in the industry. And that is, you know, the world of DevOps. Like DevOps has been such a catchphrase for all, all of us in the industry last five years. And it's been both a combination of cultural change as well as technology change. Here's what the latest is on the, in the world of DevOps. DevOps is now crystallized. It's not some kind of mysterious art form that you read about how people are practicing. DevOps is, it's broken into two, two things now. >>There is the platform part. So DevOps is now a bunch of platforms. And the other part of DevOps is a bunch of practices. So a little bit on both these, the platforms in the world of es there's only three platforms, right? There's the orchestration platforms, the, you know, eks, the open ships of the world and so on. There are the data management platforms, pro people like Port Works. And the third is security platforms, right? You know, Palo Alto Networks, others Aqua or all in this. So these are the three platforms and there are platform engineering teams now that many of our largest customers, some of the largest banks, the largest service providers, they're all operating as a ES platform engineering team. And then now developers, to your point, developers are in the practice of being able to use these platforms to launch new services. So the, the actual IT ops, the ops are run by developers now and they can do it on these platforms. And the platform engineering team provide that as an ease of use and they're there to troubleshoot when problems happen. So the idea of DevOps as a ops practice and a platform is the newest thing. E and, and ports and pure storage leading in the world of data management platforms >>There. Talk about a customer example that you think really articulates the value that Port Works and Pure Storage delivers from a data management perspective. >>Yeah, so there's so many examples. One of the, one of the longest running examples we have is a very, very large service provider that, you know, you all know and probably use, and they have been using us in the cable kinda set box or cable box business. They get streams of data from, from cable boxes all over the world. They collected all in a centralized large kind of thing and run elastic search and analytics on it. Now what they have done is they couldn't keep up with this at the scale and the depth, right? The speed of, of activity and the distributed nature of the activity. The only way to solve this was to use something like Kubernetes manage with Spark coming, bringing all the data in to deep, deep, deep silos of storage, which are all running not even on a sand, but on kind of, you know, very deep terabytes and terabytes of, of storage. So all of this is orchestrated with the Heco coworks and there's a platform engineering team. We are building that platform for them with some of these other components that allows them to kind of do analytics and, and make some changes in real time. Huge kind of setup for, for >>That. Yeah. Well, you guys have the right architecture. I love the vision. I love what you guys are doing. I think this is right in line with Pures. They've always been disruptors. I remember when we first interviewed the CEO when they started Yep. They, they stayed on path. They didn't waiver. EMC was the big player. They ended up taking their lunch and dinner as well and they beat 'em in the marketplace. But now you got this traction here. So I have to ask you, how's the business, what's the results look like? Either GM cloud native business unit of a storage company that's transformed and transforming? >>Yeah, you know, it's interesting, we just hit the two year anniversary, right John? And so what we did was just kind of like step back and hey, you know, we're running so hard, you just take a step back. And we've tripled the business in the two years since the acquisition, the two years before and, and we were growing through proven. So, you know, that that's quite a fe and we've tripled the number of people, the amount of engineering investments we have, the number of go to market investments have, have been, have been awesome. So business is going really well though, I will say. But I think, you know, we have, we can't be, we we're watching the market closely. You know, as a former ceo, I, you have to kind of learn to read the tea leaves when you invest. And I think, you know, what I would say is we're proceeding with caution in the next two quarters. I view business transformation as not a cancelable activity. So that's the, that's the good news, right? Our customers are large, it's, >>It's >>Right. All they're gonna do is say, Hey, they're gonna put their hand, their hand was always going right on the dial. Now they're kind of putting their hand on the dial going, hey, where, what is happening? But my, my own sense of this is that people will continue to invest through it. The question is at what level? And I also think that this is a six month kind of watch, the watch where, where we put the dial. So Q4 and q1 I think are kind of, you know, we have our, our watch kind of watch the market sign. But I have the highest confidence. What >>Does your gut tell you? You're an entrepreneur, >>Which my, my gut says that we'll go through a little bit of a cautious investment period in the next six months. And after that I think we're gonna be back in, back full, full in the crazy growth that we've always been. We're gonna grow by the way, in the next think >>It's core style. I think I'm, I'm more bullish. I think there's gonna be some, you know, weeding out of some overinvestment pre C or pre bubble. But I think tech's gonna continue to grow. I don't see >>It's stopping. Yeah. And, and the investment is gonna be on these core platforms. See, back to the platform story, it's gonna be in these core platforms and on unifying everything, let's consume it better rather than let's go kind of experiment with a whole bunch of things all over the map, right? So you'll see less experimentation and more kind of, let's harvest some of the investments we've made in the last couple >>Of years and actually be able to, to enable companies in any industry to truly be data companies. Because absolutely. We talked about as a service, we all have these expectations that any service we want, we can get it. Yes. There's no delay because patients has gone Yeah. From the pandemic. >>So it is kind of, you know, tightening up the screws on what they've built. They, you know, adding some polish to it, adding some more capability, like I said, a a a, a combination of harvesting and new investing. It's a combination I think is what we're gonna see. >>Yeah. What are some of the things that you're looking forward to? You talked about some of the, the growth things in the investment, but as we round out Q4 and head into a new year, what are you excited about? >>Yeah, so you know, I mentioned our, as a service kind of platform, the global two K for us has been a set of customers who we co-create stuff with. And so one of the other set of things that we are very excited about and announcing is because we're deployed at scale, we're, we're, we have upgraded our backend. So we have now the ability to go to million IOPS and more and, and for, for the right backends. And so Kubernetes is a add-on which will not slow down your, your core base infrastructure. Second thing that that we, we have is added a bunch of capability in the disaster recovery business continuity front, you know, we always had like metro kind of distance dr. We had long distance dr. We've added a near sync Dr. So now we can provide disaster recovery and business continuity for metro distances across continents and across the planet. Right? That's kind of a major change that we've done. The third thing is we've added the capability for file block and Object. So now by adding object, we're really a complete solution. So it is really that maturity of the business Yeah. That you start seeing as enterprises move to embracing a platform approach, deploying it much more widely. You talked about the early majority. Yeah. Right. And so what they require is more enterprise class capability and those are all the things that we've been adding and we're really looking forward >>To it. Well it sounds like tremendous evolution and maturation of Port Works in the two years since it's been with Pure Storage. You talked about the cultural alignment, great stuff that you're achieving. Congratulations on that. Yeah. Great stuff >>Ahead and having fun. Let's not forget that, that's too life's too short to do. It is right. >>You're right. Thank you. We will definitely, as always on the cube, keep our eyes on this space. Mur. Meley, it's been great to have you back on the program. Thank you for joining, John. >>Thank you so much. It's pleasure. Our, >>For our guests and John Furrier, Lisa Martin here live in Detroit with the cube about Coan Cloud Native Con at 22. We'll be back after a short break.

>>How y'all doing? My name's Savannah Peterson, coming to you from Detroit, Michigan, where the cube is excited to be at Cube Con. Our guest this afternoon is a wonderfully brilliant woman who's been leading in the space for over eight years. Please welcome Gar Kapur. Gar, thanks for being with us. >>Well, thank you for having me to, It's a pleasure. Good >>To see you. So, update what's going on here? Co saw you at VMware Explorer. Yes. Welcome back to the Cube. Yes. What's, what's going on for you guys here? What's the message? What's the story >>Soupcon like I always say, it's our event, it's our audience. So, you know, Minayo, I dunno if you've been keeping track, Mani ha did reach like a billion docker downloads recently. So >>Congratulations. >>This is your tribe right here. Yes, >>It is. It is. Our >>Tribe's native infrastructure. Come on. Yes. >>You know, this audience understands us. We understand them. You know, you were asking when did we start the company? So we started in 2014, and if you see, Kubernetes was born in 2015 in all sorts of ways. So we kind of literally grew up together along with the Kubernetes journey. So all the decisions that we took were just, you know, making sure that we addressed the Kubernetes and the cloud native audiences, the first class citizens when it comes to storage. So I think that has been very instrumental in leading us up to the point where we have reached a billion docker downloads and we are the most loved object storage out >>There. So, So do you like your younger brother Kubernetes? Or not? Is this is It's a family that gets along. >>It does get along. I think in, in Kubernetes space, what we are seeing from customer standpoint as well, right? They're warming up to Kubernetes and you know, they are using Kubernetes as a framework to deploy anything at scale. And especially when you're, you know, offering storage as a service to your, whether it is for your internal audience or to the external audience, Kubernetes becomes extremely instrumental because it makes Multitenancy extremely easy. It makes, you know, access control points extremely easy for different user sets and so on. Yeah. So Kubernetes is definitely the way to go. I think enterprises need to just have little bit more skill set when it comes to Kubernetes overall, because I think there are still little bit areas in which they need to invest in, but I think this is the right direction, This is the right way. If you, if you want multi-tenant, you need Kubernetes for compute, you need Kubernetes for storage. So >>You guys hit an interesting spot here with Kubernetes. You have a product that targets builders. Yes. But also it's a service that's consumed. >>Yes. Yes. >>How do you see those two lanes shaping out as the world starts to grow, the ecosystems growing, You've got products for builders and products for people who are developers consuming services. How do you see that shaking out? Is just, is there intersections there? There is. You seem to be hitting that. >>There is. There is definitely an intersection. And I think it's getting merged because a lot of these users are the ones who dictate what kind of stack they want as part of their application ecosystem overall, right? So that is where, when an application, for example, in the big data workloads, right? They tell their IT or their storage department, this is the S3 compatible storage that they want their applications to run on or sit on. So the bridges definitely like becoming very narrow in that way from builders versus the service consumers overall. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, people need to get their job done from application users perspective. They want to just get in and get out. They don't want to deal with the underlying complexity when it comes to storage or any of the framework, right? So I think what we enable is for the builders to make sure they have extremely easy, simple, high performance software service that they can offer it to their customers, which is as three compatible. So now they can take their applications wherever they need to go, whether it is edge, whether it is on-prem, whether it is any of the public cloud, wherever you need to be, go be with it. With >>Mei, I mean, I wanna get your thoughts on a really big trend that's happening now. That's right. In your area of expertise. That is people are realizing that, hey, I don't necessarily need AWS S3 for storage. I gotta do my own storage or build my own. So there's a cost slash value for commodity storage. Yes. When does a company just dive to what to do there? Do they do their own? You see, CloudFlare, you seeing Wasabi, other companies? Yes. Merging. You guys are here. Yeah, yeah. Common services then there's a differentiator in the cloud. What's the, what's this all about? >>Yeah, so there are a couple of things going on in this space, right? So firstly, I think cloud model is the way to go. And what, what we mean by cloud is not public cloud, it's the cloud operating model overall, right? You need to build the applications the correct way so that they can consume cloud native infrastructure correctly. So I think that is what is going on. And secondly, I think cloud is great for your burst workloads. It's all about productivity. It's all about getting your applications to the market as fast as you can. And that is where of course, MIN IO comes into play when you know you can develop your applications natively on something like mania. And when, when you take it to production, it's very easy no matter where you go. And thirdly, I think when it comes to the cost perspective, you know, what we offer to the customers is predictability of the cost and no surprise in the builds when it comes, which is extremely important to like a CFO of a company because everyone knows that cloud is not the cheapest place to run your sustainable workloads. And there is unpredictability element involved because, you know, people leave their buckets on, people leave their compute nodes on it, it happens all the time. So I think if you take that uncertainty out of it and have more predictability around it, I think that is, that is where the true value lies. >>You're really hitting on a theme that we've been hearing a lot on the cube today, which is standardization, predictability. Yes. We, everyone always wants to move fast, but I think we're actually stepping away from that Mark Zuckerberg parity, move fast and break things and let's move fast, but know how much it's gonna cost and also decrease the complexity. Drugs >>Don't things. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And try, you know, minimize the collateral damage when Yeah. I, I love that you're enabling folks like that. How is, I'm curious because I see that your background, you have a PhD in philosophy, so we don't always see philosophy and DevOps and Kubernetes in the same conversation. Yeah. So how does this translate into your leadership within your team and the, And Min i's culture, >>So it's PhD in financial management and financial economics. So that is where my specialization lies. And I think after that I came to Bay Area. So once you're in Bay Area, you cannot escape technology. It is >>To you, >>It is just the way things are. You cannot escape startups, you cannot escape technology overall. So that's how I got introduced to it. And yeah, that it has been a great journey so far. And from the culture standpoint of view, you know, I always tell like if I can learn technology, anyone can learn technology. So what we look for is the right attitude, the right kind of, you know, passion to learn is what is most important in this world if you want to succeed. And that's what I tell everyone who joins the, who joins win I, two months, three months, you'll be up and going. I, I'm not too worried about it. >>But pet pedigree doesn't always play into it because no, the changing technology you could level up. So for sure you get into those and be contributing. >>I think one of the reasons why we have been successful the way we have been successful with storage is because we've not hired storage experts. Because they come with their own legacy and mindset of how to build things. And we are like, and we always came from a point of view, we are not a storage company. We are a data company and we want to be close to the data. So when you come to that mindset, you build a product directly attacking data, not just like, you know, in traditional appliance world and so on, so forth. So I think those things have been very instrumental in terms of getting the right people on board, making sure that they're very aligned with how we do things and you know, the dnf, the company's, >>That's for passion and that's actually counterintuitive, but it's makes sense. Yes. In new markets it doesn't always seem to take the boiler plate. Yes. Skill set or person. No, we're doing journalism, but we don't hire journalists. No, >>I mean you gotta be, It's adventurers. It is. It's curious. >>Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I, yeah, I think also, you know, for you to disrupt any space, you cannot approach it from how they approach the problem. You need to completely turn the tables upside down as they say, right? You need to disrupt it and have the surprise element. And I think that is what always makes a technology very special. You cannot follow the path that others have followed. You need to come from a different space, different mindset altogether. So that is where it's important that you, like you said, adventurous are the people >>That that is for sure. Talk to us about the company. Are you growing scaling? How do people find out more? >>Oh yeah, for sure. So people can find out more by visiting our website. Min dot i, we are growing. We just closed last year, end of last year we closed our CDC round unicorn valuation and so on, so forth. So >>She says unicorn valuation, so casually, I just wanna point that out, that, that, that, that's funny. Like a true strong female leader. I love that. I >>Love that. Thank you. Yes. So in terms of, you know, in terms of growth and scalability, we are growing the team. We are, you know, onboarding more commercial customers to the platform. So yeah, it's growth all across growth from the community standpoint, growth from commercial number standpoint. So congratulations. Yeah, thank you. >>Yeah, that's very exciting. Grma, thank you so much for being, >>Being with us. Thank you for >>Having me. Always. Thanks for hanging out and to all of you, thank you so much for tuning into the Cube, especially for this exciting edition for all of us here in Detroit, Michigan, where we're coming to you from Cuban. See you back here in a little bit.

>>Welcome back everyone, to the special presentation of Cloud Native at scale, the Cube and Platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of Platform nine. Thank >>You very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just a success Exactly. Of containerization. Right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, Bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly, Yes. >>And so as infrastructure, as code comes in, we talked to Bacar, talking about Super Cloud. I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our, our lawn you guys just launched, the infrastructure's code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructure is code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon. Connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it. Everybody or most people know about infrastructures code, but with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D. Instead, with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specify. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. Yeah, >>Yeah. And, and that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. That declare, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's into integrations, configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you've got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new, new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. That's, >>I wrote a LinkedIn post today, it was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is the new breed, the trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your >>View? It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we tried to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into our line in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the community invite in two where they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in AAL event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so of deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection to the internet at the, the layer too is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna continue. >>It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a serviced layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd want to have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which we will be covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced Arlon at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why arlon, why this announcement? Yeah, >>So the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built our lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, >>And what's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened to need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I wanna run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We very, people used words like that. >>That's right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Arlon you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, >>So essentially standard like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, deploy it. Now what there between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things got controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on it's super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge re's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring it's saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years. I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year coan a lot of this. What does cloud native at scale mean? >>Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot. Rogue got Coan coming up and obviously this'll be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jogging for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time, there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cub cons and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, >>Well maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed, but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career, VMware over decades with them, obviously in 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here at Platform now you's been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud a Rod team at that time. We would joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform Nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? Open Stack was an example where the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will, a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the, the, the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah. I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart Yeah. On this segment, what is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a, a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you Yeah, I would you describe that when people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. Yeah. >>And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing, doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year. And, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud Native at scale? >>The the hyper square? >>Yeah. Yeah. Abras, Azure, Google, >>You mean from a business perspective, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, They, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep Well, >>They got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems and the >>Platforms. Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh, the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware. And he kinda over, well he kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. Yes, >>Exactly. >>It's, we're back in the same game. Thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud, Cloud native develop for developers. And John Feer with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up.

>>Welcome back everyone, to the special presentation of Cloud Native at scale, the Cube and Platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or well later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of Platform nine. Thank >>You very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source, Docker now just the success of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, Bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructures code comes in, we talked to Basco talking about Super Cloud. I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our R lawn, and you guys just launched the infrastructures code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructures code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon. Connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it. Everybody or most people know about infrastructures code, but with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D. Instead, with Kubernetes you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specified. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. Yeah, >>Yeah. And that really means it developer just accessing resources. Okay, not clearing, Okay, give me some compute. Stand me up some, Turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean, now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you've got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these, these new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. The that's, >>I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is a new breed. The trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your view? >>It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the computer by, in two, where they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, Bacar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in aural event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system. So the deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer two is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, >>It's >>Gonna >>Continue. It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? >>Yeah, so the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built Arlan and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, >>And what's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, So let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you know, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads. And you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases, it's like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We've heard people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon, you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Arlon you can kind of express everything together. You can say, I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications, and your clusters and manage them in a very, So >>It's essentially standard, like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, deploy it. Now what's there is between say a script like I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes, you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things about controllers, which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on its super set of infrastructures code because it's an evolution. You need edge retro's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring it saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, So, all right, so Cloudnative at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloudnative at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years? I mean, people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year at co con a lot of this, what does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users. There, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we, we try to address with Arlan. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, So I'll put you on the spot road that Coan coming up, and obviously this will be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at Coan this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jocking for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's their ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cub cons and I expect to continue, and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed, but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there're just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. Yeah. >>B, you've had a storied career VMware over decades with them, obviously with 12 years, with 14 years or something like that. Big number. Co-founder here, a platform. Now you guys been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. And I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud a Rod team at that time. We to joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? OpenStack was an example where the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the, the, the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yeah, I think the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a, a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing over $2 billion tran billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud need of its scale? >>The, the hyperscalers? >>Yeah. A's Azure, Google >>You mean from a business perspective, technical, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep >>Well, they got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems and, and platforms. >>Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, and I remember our first year doing the cube, Oh, the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware and he kind of over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. >>Yes, >>Exactly. It's, we're back in the same game. Vic, thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super Cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud. Cloud Native Phil for developers and John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up.

>>Hello, welcome to the Cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special presentation on Cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. I'm John Furr, your host of The Cube. We had a great lineup of three interviews we're streaming today. Meor Ma Makowski, who's the co-founder and VP of Product of Platform nine. She's gonna go into detail around Arlon, the open source products, and also the value of what this means for infrastructure as code and for cloud native at scale. Bickley the chief architect of Platform nine Cube alumni. Going back to the OpenStack days. He's gonna go into why Arlon, why this infrastructure as code implication, what it means for customers and the implications in the open source community and where that value is. Really great wide ranging conversation there. And of course, Vascar, Gort, the CEO of Platform nine, is gonna talk with me about his views on Super Cloud and why Platform nine has a scalable solutions to bring cloudnative at scale. So enjoy the program. See you soon. Hello everyone. Welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Furry, host of the Cube. A pleasure to have here, me Makoski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. Thank >>You for having me. >>So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good, in a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model where you have a few large distributions of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of microsites, these microsites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think supercloud is a, is an appropriate term for that. >>So you brought a couple of things I want to dig into. You mentioned edge nodes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. Wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got iot, ot, and IT kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions, global infras infrastructures, big part of it. I just saw some news around CloudFlare shutting down a site here. There's policies being made at scale, These new challenges there. Can you share because you can have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because there's something business consequences as well, but there are technical challenges. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud or across multiple edges and regions? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have deploy a number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other axis you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that scale really needs some well thought out, well structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when you scale, is not at the level. >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're talking about at scale Yep. Challenges here. Yeah, >>Absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is, you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So I, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this chain, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, It's not working. The exact same problem now happens and these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies, or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on. All of these various factors are their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >>Okay. So I have to ask about scale, because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success of cloud native. You know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can figure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotspot is in when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the two factors of scale, as we talked about, start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and pos from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to triage us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say your radio cell tower site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes nightmarishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem, another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that these security policies are configured properly. >>So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching. Can you share what Arlon is this new product? What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. Very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arlon is, it's an open source project, and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end to end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the site of those clusters, security policies, your middleware, plug-ins, and finally your applications. So what our LA you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what dissolves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in, what's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, what >>Would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right? Our line, and if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of online, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale, creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each component, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage. But again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what arlon really does. That's like the deliver pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency for >>Those. So keeping it smooth, the assembly on things are flowing. See c i CD pipe pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops, it's coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of applications that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secure properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability integrated. And so it solves problems for both >>Those teams. Yeah. It's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud needed developer's. That's right. The option teams have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, ES really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because, you know, s clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined a declarative way, and Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so Arlon addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source well known solutions. >>And do I want to get into the benefits? What's in it for me as the customer developer? But I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over at Platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model or on-prem model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fision, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why opensource and also open source, because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a block box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. And what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way that long. But that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for developers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating met metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, and you know, two things. I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a SAS hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production >>Environment. I have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer. Yep. Why should I be enthused about Arla? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo? I'm a >>Customer. Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native Kubernetes, and then we have our C I C D pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS c D pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of that groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think Ops FICO would be delighted. The folks that we've talk, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on ecos Amazon, and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us the >>Ability to, Yeah, I think people are scared. Not sc I won't say scare, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And, and I think this is gonna come up at co con this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source trying to free fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Arlan uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest and used CD open source tools that's out there. Right's created by folks that are as part of into team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is Alon also makes use of Cluster api cappi, which is a Kubernetes sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with Argo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what City can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to a point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, platform line has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy online at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your DEF test environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that >>Sla. And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with that are familiar with, with Argo and then rlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo adn, they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our land before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customers' hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment, as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and you know, give you an inventory. And that will, >>So if customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. So >>Especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yep. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. And >>You provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. >>Yes. That's the key value here. >>That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale up, >>Well profile and policy based declarative configuration and lifecycle management for clusters. >>If I asked you how this enables supercloud, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there's at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way so that our lot solves then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And arlon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And you know, our alarm fills in >>One. Okay. So now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. Is under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers and the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me, seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge to their, where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own the stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for that. >>So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the full stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this RLO solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, they're designed to do, the question is, what did does the current pain look like of the apps breaking? What does the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo and, and all the other goodness to automate? What are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, Is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely would be indications of things are effed up a little bit. Yeah. >>More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so you are, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they're, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this because they're the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you are looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your budget. So those are, those are the signals. >>This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application, not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the maybe terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. Company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and boards is saying, How is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yep. Do you see that same thing? >>Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CXO CIO level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, that the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloudnative at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things, but things are >>Just taking care of the CIO doesn't exist. There's no ciso, they're at the beach. >>Yep. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for >>Having me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching. Welcome back everyone to the special presentation of cloud native at scale, the cube and platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of platform nine. >>Thank you very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just the success Exactly. Of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructures code comes in, we talked to Bacar talking about Super Cloud, I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our, our lawn, and you guys just launched the infrastructures code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructures code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon, connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructure as code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it, everybody or most people know about infrastructures code. But with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D instead with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specified. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. >>Yeah. And that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. That declare, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's into integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. >>That's, I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is a new breed. The trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your view? >>It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at AR GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the community meeting by in two, they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in AAL event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or applications specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so of deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer two is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think that the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna >>Continue. It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We remember pointing for many years now that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at Argo Con, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? >>Yeah, so the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself. You can, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built our lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, And >>What's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you know, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructures code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And is my workloads running effectively? So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, >>Right? So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's kinda like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We very, people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Armon you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, so >>Essentially standard creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook. You deploy it. Now what's there is between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I could just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things about controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on, it's as super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring and saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years? I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Could be nice, it has value. We're gonna hear this year coan a lot of this. What does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot road that CubeCon coming up and obviously this will be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at Coan this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jogging for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cons and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career, VMware over decades with them obviously in 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here at Platform. Now you guys have been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. And I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud ERO team at that time. We would to joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys tr pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? OpenStack was an example when the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah, I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you, Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud native of its scale? >>The, the hyperscalers, >>Yeahs Azure, Google. >>You mean from a business perspective? Yeah, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep, >>Well they got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes, that's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the the new risk and arm ecosystems and the platforms. >>Yeah, not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh the cloud is one big distributed computer, it's, it's hardware and he got software and you got middleware and he kind over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. >>Yes, >>Exactly. It's, we're back on the same game. Vic, thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud Cloud Native Phil for developers and John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up. Hey, welcome back everyone to Super Cloud 22. I'm John Fur, host of the Cuba here all day talking about the future of cloud. Where's it all going? Making it super multi-cloud clouds around the corner and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and edge. Got a great guest here, Vascar Gorde, CEO of Platform nine, just on the panel on Kubernetes. An enabler blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >>Good to see you >>Again. So Kubernetes is a blocker enabler by, with a question mark. I put on on that panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now great conversation operations is impacted. What's interest thing about what you guys are doing at Platform nine? Is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform nine while you're at the helm? Yeah, right. >>Absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well and since they came to us, it was an insight to call ourselves the platform company eight years ago, right? So absolutely whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you do on the infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform. And that's what we, we come into, >>Patrick, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background and we were gonna talk about the glory days in 2000, 2001, when the first as piece application service providers came out, kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all kind of cloudlike. >>It wasn't, >>And and web services started then too. So you saw that whole growth. Now, fast forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles, >>I, in fact you, you know, as we were talking offline, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000 where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right? You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then. The tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right? So I think things are in a way the same but also extremely different. But more importantly now for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company is extremely mission critical. It's no longer a nice to have everybody's in the journey somewhere. >>Everyone is going digital transformation here. Even on a so-called downturn recession that's upcoming inflation's here. It's interesting. This is the first downturn in the history of the world where the hyperscale clouds have been pumping on all cylinders as an economic input. And if you look at the tech trends, GDPs down, but not tech. >>Nope. >>Cuz the pandemic showed everyone digital transformation is here and more spend and more growth is coming even in, in tech. So this is a unique factor which proves that that digital transformation's happening and company, every company will need a super cloud. >>Everyone, every company, regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernize their infrastructure. And modernizing Infras infrastructure is not just some new servers and new application tools, It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >>I wanna get your thoughts on Super Cloud because one of the things Dave Ante and I want to do with Super Cloud and calling it that was we, I, I personally, and I know Dave as well, he can, I'll speak from, he can speak for himself. We didn't like multi-cloud. I mean not because Amazon said don't call things multi-cloud, it just didn't feel right. I mean everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365. But it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized, it wasn't truly cloud enabled. It didn't, it felt like they're not ready for a market yet. Yet public clouds booming on premise. Private cloud and Edge is much more on, you know, more, more dynamic, more real. >>Yeah. I think the reason why we think super cloud is a better term than multi-cloud. Multi-cloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected. Okay, you have a productivity cloud, you have a Salesforce cloud, you may have, everyone has an internal cloud, right? So, but they're not connected. So you can say okay, it's more than one cloud. So it's you know, multi-cloud. But super cloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically. Whether it is on-prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's a store at the branch. You are looking at this as one unit. And that's where we see the term super cloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a super cloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, you need, but at the same time you need a single pain, a single platform for you to build your innovations on regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right? So I think Super Cloud is actually a more tightly integrated orchestrated management philosophy we think. >>So let's get into some of the super cloud type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is to, as a pilots, to get the conversations flowing with with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders, Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third cloudworks in public cloud. We see the use cases on premises use cases. Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's become from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that open stack. We need an orchestration and then containers had a good shot with, with Docker. They re pivoted the company. Now they're all in an open source. So you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. What's the, what's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new defacto enabler? It >>Is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise somewhere else in the journey is going on. And you know, most companies are, 70 plus percent of them have won two, three container based, Kubernetes based applications now being rolled out. So it's very much here, it is in production at scale by many customers. And the beauty of it is, yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skill set. And that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right? So it's, it's one thing to buy a tool >>And just be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >>We provide, provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service and it can run anywhere. It can run in public private. We have customers who do it in truly multi-cloud environments. It runs on the edge, it runs at this in stores are thousands of stores in a retailer. So we provide that and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also un OnPrem as an air gap version. >>Can you give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a super cloud experience for your >>Customer? Right. So I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have, I dunno, hundreds of products, hundreds of r and d teams that are building different, different products. And if you look at few years back, each one was doing it on a different platforms but they really needed to bring the agility and they worked with us now over three years where we are their build test dev pro platform where all their products are built on, right? And it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light out operation. In fact the customer says like, like the Maytag service person cuz we provide it as a service and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. >>So it's kinda like an SRE vibe. One person managing a >>Large 4,000 engineers building infrastructure >>On their tools, >>Whatever they want on their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform. >>What benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >>Speed, definitely. Okay. Definitely they're speeding. Speed uniformity because now they're building able to build, so their customers who are using product A and product B are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >>So a big problem that's coming outta this super cloud event that we're, we're seeing and we've heard it all here, ops and security teams cuz they're kind of too part of one theme, but ops and security specifically need to catch up speed wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? Right. >>So we, we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. Who's your buyer? Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally cio definitely. So it it's, it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure. But the ideal one we are beginning to see now many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying we have a platform group on which any app can be developed and it is run on any infrastructure. So the platform engineering teams, >>You working two sides of that coin. You've got the dev side and then >>And then infrastructure >>Side side, okay. >>Another customer like give you an example, which I would say is kind of the edge of the store. So they have thousands of stores. Retail, retail, you know food retailer, right? They have thousands of stores that are on the globe, 50,000, 60,000. And they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. They have applications that were written in the nineties and then they have very modern AIML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. The menu changes based on, It's a classic edge. It's classic edge. Yeah. Right. They can't send it people to go install rack access servers then they can't sell software people to go install the software and any change you wanna put through that, you know, truck roll. So they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that >>You, you say little servers like how big one like a net box box, like a small little >>Box and all the person in the store has to do like what you and I do at home and we get a, you know, a router is connect the power, connect the internet and turn the switch on. And from there we pick it up. >>Yep. >>We provide the operating system, everything and then the applications are put on it. And so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage >>Thousands of them. True plug and play >>Two, plug and play thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right? So, so that's another example where on the edge then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds. Okay. But they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the location. So >>You guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. It's awesome. The question I want to ask you is that's come up is what is truly cloud native? Cuz there's lift and shift of the cloud >>That's not cloud native. >>Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says what's cloud native, what isn't cloud native? >>Right. Look, I think first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, is CNC foundation. And I think it's very well documented where you, well >>Con of course Detroit's >>Coming here, so, so it's already there, right? So, so we follow that very closely, right? I think just lifting and shifting your 20 year old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native. Okay? You can't put to cloud native, you have to rewrite and redevelop your application and business logic using modern tools. Hopefully more open source and, and I think that's what Cloudnative is and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now everybody wants to be cloudnative, but it's not that easy, okay? Because it's, I think it's first of all, skill set is very important. Uniformity of tools that there's so many tools there. Thousands and thousands of tools you could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. Okay? So I think the complexities there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly them. >>And I'll give you an example. I don't know how clear native they are, right? And they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas, you do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how dominoes actually increase their share and mind share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not, I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered. There were a pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >>Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations of the, for the customer. >>Customer, the customer's expectations change, right? Once you get used to a better customer experience, you learn >>Best car. To wrap it up, I wanna just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you part of the Super Cloud 22 is you've seen many cycles, you have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career where you've been and what you've done and now the CEO platform nine, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur, you sold your company to Oracle, you've been seeing the big companies, you've seen the different waves. What's going on right now put into context this moment in time around Super >>Cloud. Sure. I think as you said, a lot of battles. Cars being been, been in an asp, been in a realtime software company, being in large enterprise software houses and a transformation. I've been on the app side, I did the infrastructure right and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with a lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to go through to become cloud native and digitalize. If I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami that's going on is a couple of paddles come to me. One is, think of it, which was forced to honors like y2k. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for y2k. I would say the next big thing was e-commerce. I think e-commerce has been pervasive right across all industries. >>And disruptive. >>And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your e-commerce initiative, you were, it was an existence question. Yeah. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloudnative that know that is what I see >>Happening there. I think that that e-commerce was interesting and I think just to riff with you on that is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the game, it's just changing how you operate, >>How you think, and how you operate. See, if you think about the early days of eCommerce, just putting up a shopping cart didn't made you an eCommerce or an E retailer or an e e customer, right? Or so. I think it's the same thing now is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business. How are you gonna operate? How are you gonna service your customers? I think it requires that just lift and shift is not gonna work. >>Mascar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Super Cloud 22. We really appreciate, we're gonna keep this open. We're gonna keep this conversation going even after the event, to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open in the community. And we're gonna keep this going for, for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud cloud computing. I'm Sean Feer with Super Cloud 22 in the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. >>Hello. Welcome back. This is the end of our program, our special presentation with Platform nine on cloud native at scale, enabling the super cloud. We're continuing the theme here. You heard the interviews Super Cloud and its challenges, new opportunities around the solutions around like Platform nine and others with Arlon. This is really about the edge situations on the internet and managing the edge multiple regions, avoiding vendor lock in. This is what this new super cloud is all about. The business consequences we heard and and the wide ranging conversations around what it means for open source and the complexity problem all being solved. I hope you enjoyed this program. There's a lot of moving pieces and things to configure with cloud native install, all making it easier for you here with Super Cloud and of course Platform nine contributing to that. Thank you for watching.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 2022. Brought to you by red hat, the cloud native computing foundation and its ecosystem partners. >>Welcome to Licia Spain and cube con cloud native con 2022 Europe. I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillon senior editor, enterprise architecture for Silicon angle. We're gonna talk to some amazing folks. Day two coverage of Q con cloud native con Paul. We did the wrap up yesterday. Great. A great back and forth about what en Rico about yesterday's, uh, session. What are you looking for to today? >>I'm looking for, uh, to understand better, uh, how Kubernetes is being put into production, the types of applications that are being built on top of it. Yesterday, we talked a lot about infrastructure today. I think we're gonna talk a little bit more about applications, including with our first guest. >>Yeah, I was speaking our first guest. We have ish Degan CPO chief product officer at Hazelcast Hazelcast has been on the program before, but you, this is your first time in the queue, correct? >>It, it is Keith. Yeah. Well, >>Welcome to been Cuban. So we're talking data, which is always a fascinating topic. Containers are, have been known for not being supportive of stateful applications. At least you shouldn't hold the traditional thought. You shouldn't hold stateful data in containers. Tell me about the relationship between Hazel cast and containers we're at Cuan. >>Yeah, so a little bit about, uh, Hazelcast. We are a real time data platform and, uh, we are not a database, but a data platform because we basically allow, uh, data at rest as well as data in motion. So you can imagine that if you're writing an application, you can basically query and join a data coming in events, as well as data, which might have been persisted. So you can do both stream processing as well as, you know, low latency data access. And, and this platform of course, is supported on all the clouds. And we kind of delegate the orchestration of this kind of scale out system to Kubernetes. Um, and you know, that provides a resiliency and many things which go along with that. >>So you say you don't, you're not a database platform. What are you used for to manage the data? >>So we are, uh, we are memory first. So we are, you know, we started with low latency applications, but then we realized that real time has really become a business term. It's it's more of a business SLA mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's really the, we see the opportunity, the punctuated change, which is happening in the market today is about real time data access to real time. I mean, there are real time applications. Our customers are building around real time offers, um, realtime thread detection. I mean, just imagine, you know, one of our customers like B and P par bars, they have, they basically originate a loan while the customer is banking. So you are in an ATM machine and you swipe your card and you are asking for, you know, taking 50 euros out. And at that point they can actually originate a custom loan offer based on your existing balance you're existing request and your credit score in that moment. So that's a value moment for them and they actually saw 400% loan origination go up because of that, because nobody's gonna be thinking about a credit, uh, line of credit after they're done banking. So it's in that value moment and we allow basically our data platform allows you to have fast access to data and also process incoming streams. So not before they get stored, but as they're coming in. >>So if I'm a developer and cuon is definitely a conference for developer and I, I come to the booth and I hear <inaudible>, that's the end value. I, I hear what I can do with my application. I guess the question is, how do I get there? I mean, uh, if it's not a database, how do I make a call from a container to, from my microservice to Hazel cath? Like, do I think of this as a, uh, a CNI or, or C CSI? How do I access >>PA care? Yeah. So, so we, uh, you know, we are, our server is actually built in Java. So a lot of the application which get written on top of the data platform are basically accessing through Java APIs. Or as you have a.net shop, you can actually use.net API. So we are basically an API first platform and SQL is basically the polyglot way of accessing data, both streaming data, as well as it store data. So most of the application developers, a lot of it is run done in microservices, and they're doing these fast get inputs for data. So they, they have a key, they want to get to a customer, they give a customer ID. And the beauty is that, um, while they're processing the events, they can actually enrich it because you need contextual information as well. So going back to the ATM example, you know, at that event happened, somebody swiped the card and ask for 50 euros, and now you want more information like credit score information, all that needs to be combined in that, in that value moment. >>So we allow you to do those joins and, you know, the contextual information is very important. So you see a lot of streaming platform out there, which just do streaming, but if you're an application developer, like you asked, you have to basically do call out to a streaming platform to get, um, to do streaming analytics and then do another call to get the context of that. You know, what is the credit score for this customer? But whereas in our case, because the data platform supports both streaming as well as data at rest, you can do that in one call and, you know, you don't want to have the operational complexity to stand out. Two different scale out servers is, is, is, is humongous, right? I mean, you want to build your business application. So, >>So you are querying data streaming data and data rest yes. In the same query >>Yes. In the same query. And we are memory first. So what happens is that we store a lot of the hot data in memory. So we have a scale out Ram based server. So that's where you get the low latency from. In fact, last year we did a benchmark. We were able to process a billion events a second, uh, with 99% of the latency under 30 milliseconds. So that kind of processing and that kind of power is, and, and the most important thing is determinism. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, um, if you look at real time, what real time is, is about this predictable latency at scale, because ultimately your, your adhering to a business SLA is not about milliseconds or microsecond. It's what your business needs. If your business needs that you need to deny or, uh, approve a credit credit card transaction in 50 milliseconds, that's your business SLA, and you need that predictability for every transaction. >>So talk to us about how how's this packaged in consumed. Cause I'm hearing a, a bunch of server Ram I'm hearing numbers that we're trying to adapt away from at this conference. We don't wanna see the onlay. We just want to use it. >>Yeah. So, so we kind of take a bit that, that complexity of managing this scale out, um, uh, uh, cluster, which actually utilizes Rams from each server. And then, you know, if you, you can configure it so that the hard set of data is in Ram, but the data, which is, you know, not so hard can actually go into a tiered storage model. So we are memory first. So, but what you are doing is you're doing simple, it's an API. So you do basically a crud, right? You create records, you read them through SQL. So for you, it's, it's, it's kind of like how you access that database. And we also provide you, you know, real time is also a journey. I mean, a lot of customers, you know, you don't want to rip their existing system and deploy another kind of scale out platform. Right? So we, we see a lot of these use cases where they have a database and we can sit in between the database, a system of record and the application. So we are kind of in between there. So that's, that's the journey you can take to real time. >>How does Kubernetes, uh, containers and Kubernetes change the game for real time analytics? >>Yeah. So, uh, Kubernetes does change it because what's hap first of all, we service most of the operational workloads. So it's, it's more on the, a lot of our customers. We have most, most of the big banks credit card companies in financial services and retail. Those are the two big sectors for us. And first of all, you know, a lot of these operational workloads are moving to the cloud and with move to the cloud, they're actually taking their existing applications and, and moving to, you know, one of the providers and to kind of orchestrate this scale out platform, which does auto scaling, that's where the benefit comes from mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it also gives them the freedom of choice. So, you know, the Kubernetes is, you know, a standard which goes across cloud providers. So that gives them the benefit that they can actually take their application. And if they want, they can actually move it to a different, a different cloud provider because we take away the orchestration complexity, you know, in that abstraction layer. >>So what happens when I need to go really fast? I mean, I, I, I need, uh, I'm looking at bare metal and I'm looking at really scaling a, a, a homogeneous application in a single data center set of data centers. Is there a bare metal play here? >>Yes. There, there, there are some very, very, uh, like if you want microsecond latency, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, um, you know, we have customers who actually store two to four terabytes in Ram and, and they can actually stand up. Um, you know, again, it depends on what kind of deployment you want. You can either scale up or scale out, scaling up is expensive, you know, because those boxes are not cheap, but if you have a requirement like that, where there is sub millisecond or microphone latency requirement, you could actually store the entire data set. I mean, a lot of the operational data sets are under four terabytes. So it's not uncommon that you could actually take the entire operational transactional data set, actually move, move that to a pure Ram. But, uh, I think now we, we also see that these operational workloads are also, there's a need for analytics to be done on top as well. >>I mean, we, going back to the example I gave you, so this, this, uh, customer is not only doing stream crossing, they're also influencing a machine learning algorithm in that same, in the same kind of cycle in the life cycle. So they might have trained a machine learning or algorithm on a data lake somewhere, but once they're ready, they're actually influencing the ML algorithm in our kind of life cycle right there. So, you know, that that really brings analytics and transactions kind of together because after all transactions are where the real, you know, insights are. >>Yeah. I'm, I'm struggling a little bit with this, with these two different use cases where I have transactional basically a transactional database or transactional data platform alongside a analytics platform. Those are two, like they're two different things. I have a, you know, I, I have spinning rust for one, and then I have memory and, and MBME for another. Uh, and that requires tuning requires DBAs. It requires a lot of overhead, there seems to be some type of secret sauce going on here. >>Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, you know, we, we basically say that if you are, if you have a business case where you want to make a decision, you know, you, the only chance to succeed is where you are not making a decision tomorrow based on today's data. Right? I mean, the only way to act on that data is today. So the act is a keyword here. We actually let you generate a realtime offer. We, we let you do credit card fraud detection. In that moment, the analytics is about knowing less about acting on it. Right? Most of our applications are machine critical. They're acting on real time. I think when you talk about like the data lakes there, there's actually a real time there as well, but it's about knowing, and we believe that the operational side is where, you know, that value moment is there, you know, what good is, is to know about something tomorrow, you know, if something wrong happened, I mean, it, yeah, so there's a latency squeeze there as well, but we are on, on more on the kind of transaction and operational side. >>I gotcha. Yeah. So help me understand, like integrations. A lot of the, the, when I think of transactions, I'm thinking of SAP, Oracle, where the process is done, or some legacy banking or not legacy or new modern banking app, how does the data get from one platform to a, to Hazel cast so I can make those >>Decisions? Yeah. So we have, uh, this, the streaming engine, we have has a whole bunch of connectors to a lot of data sources. So in fact, most of our use cases already have data sources underneath there, their databases there's KA connectors, you know, joining us because if you look at it, events is, are comprised of transactions. So something, a customer did, uh, a credit card swipe, right. And also events events could be machine or IOT. So it's really unique connectivity and data ingestion before you can process that. So we have, uh, a whole suite of connectors to kind of bring data in, in our platform. >>We've been talking a lot, these last couple of days about, uh, about the edge and about moving processing capability closer to the edge. How do you enable that? >>Yeah. So edge is actually very, very relevant because of what's happening is that, um, you know, if you, if you look at like a edge deployment use case, um, you know, we have a use case where data is being pushed from these different edge devices to cloud data warehouse. Right. But just imagine that you want to be filtering data at the, at, at where it is being originated from, and you wanna push only relevant data to, to maybe a central data lake where you might want to do, you know, train your machine learning models. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so that at the edge, we are actually able to process that data. So Hazel cast will allow you to actually write a data pipeline and do stream processing so that you might want to just push, you know, a part or a subset of data, which applies by the rules. Uh, so there's, there's a big, um, uh, I think edge is, you know, there's a lot of data being generated and you don't want like garbage and garbage out there's there's, there is there's filtration done at the edge. So that only the relevant data lands in a data, data lake or something like that. >>Well, Monash, we really appreciate you stopping by realtime data is an exciting area of coverage for the queue overall from Valencia Spain, I'm Keith Townsend, along with Paul Gillon, and you're watching the queue, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>The cube presents, Coon and cloud native con Europe, 22 brought to you by the cloud native computing foundation. >>Welcome to ity of Spain and cube con coup con cloud native con Europe 2022 is near the end of the day. That's okay. We, we, we have plenty of energy because we're bringing it. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my coho, Paul Gillon Paul, this has been an amazing day. Thus far. We've talked to some incredible folks. You got a chance to walk the show floor. Yeah. So I'm really excited to hear what's the vibe of the show floor, 7,500 people in Europe following the protocols, but getting stuff done. >>Well, first I have to say that I haven't traveled for two years. So getting out to a show by, by itself is, is an amazing experience, but a show like this with all of the energy and the crowd, she is enormously crowded at lunchtime today. It's hard to believe how many people have made it, made it all the way here out on the floor. The boots are crowded. The, the demonstrations are what you would expect at a show like this. Lots of code, lots of, lots of block diagrams, lots of architecture. I think the audience is eating it up. You know, when they're, they're on their laptops, they're coding on their laptops. And this is very much symbolic of the crowd that comes to a cubic con. And it's, it's a, just a delight to see them outta here. I so much fun. >>So speaking of lots of gold, we have Bome Toro co-founder of pet trade, but, you know, just saw, didn't realize this Isto becoming part of CNCF was the latest on infield. >>Yeah. Is still is, you know, it was always one of those service mesh projects, which was very widely adopted. And it's great to see that going into the cloud native computing foundation. And I think what happened with Kubernetes, like just became the defacto container orchestrator. I think similar thing is happening with Isto and service mesh. >>What, >>So I'm sorry, Keith, what's the process like of becoming adopted by and incubated by the CNCF? >>Yeah, I mean, it's pretty simple. It's an application process into the foundation where you say, you know what the project is about, how diverse is your contributor base, how many people are using it. And it goes through a review of with TC. It goes through a review of like all the users and contributors. And if you see a good base of deployments in production, if you see a diverse of contributors, then you can basically be part of the CNCF. And as you know, CNCF is very flexible on governance. Basically it's like, bring your own governance. And then the projects can basically seamlessly go in and, you know, get into incubation and gradually graduate >>Another project close and dear to you Envoy. Yes. Now I've always considered Envoy just as what it is. It's a, I've always used it as, as a load balancer type thing. So I've always considered it somewhat of a gateway proxy, but Envoy gateway was announced last week. Yes. >>So Envoy is basically won the data plane war of in cloud native workloads. Right. And, but, and this was over the last five years, Envoy was announced even way before Rio and it is used in various deployment models. You can use it as a front load balancer. You can use it as an Ingres in Kubernetes. You can use it as a side car and a service mesh like steel, and it's lightweight dynamically, programmable, very open with a white community. But what we looked at when we looked at the Envoy base, was it still, wasn't very approachable for application developers. Like when you still see like the nouns that it uses in terms of clusters and so on is not what an application developer was used to. And so Envoy gateway is really an effort to make Envoy even more stronger out of the box for an application developer to use it as an API gateway. >>Right? Because if you think about it, ultimately, you know, people de developers start deploying workloads onto their Kubernetes clusters. They need some functionality like an API gateway to expose their services and you wanna make it really, really easy and simple. Right? I often say like what, what engine X was to like static websites like Envoy gateway will be to like, you know, APIs and it's really few the community coming together. We are a big part, but also VMware and as well as end users, like in this case, fidelity who is investing heavily into Envoy and API gateway use cases, joining forces saying, let's do this in upstream Envoy. >>I'd like to go back to IIO because this is a major step in IIOS development. Where do you see SIO coming into the picture? And Kubernetes is already broadly accepted. Is IIO generally adopted as an after an after step to, to Kubernetes or are they increasingly being adopted together? >>Yeah. So usually it's adopted as a follow on step and the reason is primarily the learning curve, right. It's just get used to all the Kubernetes and, you know, it takes a while for people to understand the concepts, get applications going, and then, you know, studio was made to basically solve, you know, three big problems there. Right. Which is around observability traffic management and security. Right. So as people deploy more services, they figure out, okay, how do I connect them? How do I secure all the connections and how do I do more fine grain routing? I'm doing more frequent deployments with Kubernetes, but I would like to do Canary releases to make safer rollouts. Right. And those are the problems that Isto solves. And I don't really want to know the metrics of like, yes, it'll be, I it's good to know all the node level and CPO level metrics. >>But really what I want to know is how are my services performing? Where is the latency, right? Where is the error rate? And those are the things thatto gives out of the box. So that's like a very natural next step for people using Kubernetes. And, you know, Tetra was really formed as a company to enable enterprises, to adopt STO Envoy and service mission, their environment. Right? So we do everything from run an academy for like courses and certifications on Envoy and STO to a distribution, which is, you know, compliant with various bills and tooling as well as a whole platform on top of STO to make it usable and deployment in a large enterprise. >>So paint the end to end for me, for STO in Envoy. I know they can be used in similar fashions is like side cars, but how they work together to deliver value. >>Yeah. So if you step back from technology a little bit, right, and you like, sort of look at what customers are doing and facing, right. Really it is about, they have applications. They have some applications that new workloads going into Kubernetes and cloud native. They have a lot of legacy workloads, a lot of workloads on VMs and with different teams in different clouds or due to acquisitions. They're very heterogeneous right now. Our mission Tetrad's mission is power. The world's application traffic, but really the business value that we are going after is consistency of application operations. Right? And I'll tell you how powerful that is because the more places you can deploy Envoy into the more places you can deploy studio into, the more consistency you can get for the value pillars of observability, traffic management, and security. Right. And really, if you think about what is the journey for an enterprise to migrate from workloads into Kubernetes or from data centers into cloud, the challenges are around security and connectivity, right? Because if it's Kubernetes fabric, the same Kubernetes app and data center can be deployed exactly as is it in cloud. Right. Right. So why is it hard to migrate to cloud, right. The challenges come in the security and networking layer. >>Right. So let's talk about that with some granularity and you can maybe gimme some concrete examples, right? Because it, as I think about the hybrid infrastructure where I have VMs on premises, cloud, native stuff, running in the public cloud, or even cloud native next to VMs, right. I do security differently when I'm in the VM world. I say, you know what, this IP address, can't talk to this Oracle database server. Right. That's not how cloud native works. Right. I, I can't say if I have a cloud, if I have a cloud native app talking to a Oracle database, there's no IP address. Yeah. But how do I, how, how do I secure the communication between the two? Exactly. >>So I think you hit it straight on the head. So which is with things like Kubernetes, IP is no longer a really a valid noun where you can say, because things will auto scale either from Kubernetes or, you know, the cloud autoscales. So really the noun that is becoming now is service. So, and I could have many instances of it. They could go scale up and down. But what I'm saying is this service, which, you know, some app server, some application can talk to the article service. Hmm. And what we have done with the te trade service bridge, which is why we call our platform service bridge, because it's all about bridging all the services is whatever you're running on, the VM can be onboarded onto the mesh, like as if it were a ity service. Right. And then my policy around this service can talk to this service is same in Kubernetes is same for Kubernetes talking to VM it's same for VM to VM, both in terms of access control in terms of encryption. What we do is because it's the Envoy, proxy goes everywhere and the traffic is going through them. We actually take care of distributing, certs, encrypting, everything, and it becomes, and that is what leads to consistent application operations. And that's where the value is. >>We're seeing a lot of activity around observ observability right now, a lot of different tools, both open source and proprietary STO certainly part of the open telemetry project, I believe. Are you part of that? Yes. But the customers are still piecing together a lot of tools on their own. Right. Do you see a, a more coherent framework forming around observability? >>I think very much so. And there are layers of observability, right? So the thing is like, if we tell you there is latency between these two services at L seven layer, the first question is, is it the service? Is it the Envoy? Or is it the network? It sounds like a very simple question. It's actually not that easy to answer. And that is one of the questions we answer in like platforms like ours. Right. But even that is not the end. It, if it's neither of these three, it could be the node. It could be the hardware underneath. Right. And those, you realize like those are different observability tools that work on each layer. So I think there's a lot of work to be done, to enable end users to go from app, like from top to bottom to make, reduce what is called MTTR or meantime to, you know, resolution of an issue, where is the problem. >>But I think with tools like what is being built now, it is becoming easier, right? It is because one of the things we have to realize is with things like Kubernetes, we made the development of microservices easier. Right. And that's great. But as a result, what is happening is that more things are getting broken down. So there is more network in between. So that's harder. It gets to troubleshoot harder. It gets to secure everything harder. It gets to get visibility from everywhere. Right. So I often say like, actually, if you're going embarking down microservices journey, you actually are, you better have a platform like this. Otherwise, you know, you're, you're taking on operational cost. >>Wow. J's paradox. The more accessible we make something, the more it gets used, the more complex it is. That's been a theme here at KU con cloud native con Europe, 2022 from Licia Spain. I'm Keith Townsend, along with my host, Paul Gillman. And you're watching the queue, the leader in high tech coverage.

(upbeat music) >> The adoption of container orchestration platforms is accelerating at a rate as fast or faster than any category in enterprise IT. Survey data from enterprise technology research shows Kubernetes specifically, leads the pack into both spending velocity and market share. Now like virtualization in its early days, containers bring many new performance and tuning challenges, in particular ensuring consistent and predictable application performance is tricky especially because containers they're so flexible and they enable portability, things are constantly changing. DevOps Pros have to wade through a sea of observability data and tuning the environment becomes a continuous exercise of trial and error. This endless cycle taxes resources and kills operational efficiency. So teams often just capitulate and simply dial up and throw unnecessary resources at the problem. StormForge is a company founded mid last decade that is attacking these issues with a combination of machine learning and data analysis. And with me to talk about a new offering that directly addresses these concerns is Matt Provo, founder and CEO of StormForge. Matt, welcome to The CUBE. Good to see you. >> Good to see you. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah. So we saw you guys at CUBE con, sort of first introduce you to our community, but add a little color to my intro there if you want. >> Well, you semi stole my thunder, but I'm okay with that. Absolutely agree with everything you said in the intro. The problem that we have set out to solve, which is tailor made for the use of real machine learning, not machine learning kind of as a marketing tag is connected to how workloads on Kubernetes are really managed from a resource efficiency standpoint. And so a number of years ago, we built the core machine learning engine and have now turned that into a platform around how Kubernetes resources are managed at scale. And so organizations today, as they're moving more workloads over, sort of drink the cool-Aid of the flexibility that comes with Kubernetes and how many knobs you can turn and developers in many ways love it. Once they start to operationalize use of Kubernetes and move workloads from pre-production into production, they run into a pretty significant complexity wall. And this is where StormForge comes in to try to help them manage those resources more effectively and ensuring and implementing the right kind of automation that empowers developers into the process, ultimately does not automate them out of it. >> So you've got news, you a hard launch coming to further address these problems. Tell us about that. >> Yeah. So historically, like any machine learning engine, we think about data inputs and what kind of data is going to feed our system to be able to draw the appropriate insights out for the user. And so historically we've kind of been single threaded on load and performance tests in a pre-production environment. And there's been a lot of adoption of that, a lot of excitement around it and frankly, amazing results. My vision has been for us to be able to close the loop, however, between data coming out of pre-production and the associated optimizations and data coming out of production environment and our ability to optimize that. A lot of our users along the way have said, these results in pre-production are fantastic. How do I know they reflect reality of what my application is going to experience in a production environment? And so we're super excited to announce, kind of the second core module for our platform called optimized live. The data input for that is observability and telemetry data coming out of APM platforms and other data sources. >> So this is like Nirvana. So I wonder if we could talk a little bit more about the challenges that this addresses. I mean, I've been around a while and it really have observed, and I used to ask technology companies all the time. Okay. So you're telling me beforehand what the optimal configuration should be and resource allocation, what happens if something changes? And then it's always, always a pause. And Kubernetes is more of a rapidly changing environment than anything we've ever seen. So this is specifically the problem you're addressing, maybe talk about that a little bit more. >> Yeah. So we view what happens in pre-production as sort of the experimentation phase. And our machine learning is is allowing the user to experiment and scenario plan. What we're doing with optimized live and adding the production piece is what we kind of also call, kind of our observation phase. And so you need to be able to run the appropriate checks and balances between those two environments to ensure that what you're actually deploying and monitoring from an application performance, from a cost standpoint is aligning with your SLOs and your SLAs, as well as your business objectives. And so that's the entire point of this edition, is to allow our users to experience, hopefully the the Nirvana associated with that, because it's an exciting opportunity for them and really something that nobody else is doing from the standpoint of closing that loop. >> So you said up front, machine learning not as a marketing tag. So I want you to sort of double click on that. What's different than how other companies approach this problem? >> Yeah. I mean, part of it is a bias for me and a frustration as a founder of the reason I started the company in the first place. I think machine learning or AI gets tagged to a lot of stuff. It's very buzz wordy, it looks good. I'm fortunate to have found a number of folks from the outset of the company with PhDs and applied mathematics and a focus on actually building real AI at the core that is connected to solving the right kind of actual business problems. And so for the first three or four years of the company's history, we really operated as a lab. And that was our focus. We then decided, we're trying to connect a fantastic team with differentiated technology to the right market timing. And when we saw all these pain points around, how fast the adoption of containers and Kubernetes have taken place, but the pain that developers are running into, we actually found for ourselves that this was the perfect use case. >> So how specifically does optimize live work? Can you add a little detail on that? >> Yeah. So when you... Many organizations today have an existing monitoring APM, observability suite really in place, they've also got a metric source. So this could be something like Datadog, or Prometheus. And once that data starts flowing there's an out of the box or kind of a piece of Kubernetes that ships with it called the VPA or the vertical pod auto scaler. And less than, really less than 1% of Kubernetes users take advantage of of the VPA, mostly because it's really challenging to configure and it's not super compatible with the tool set or the ecosystem of tools in a Kubernetes environment. And so our biggest competitor is the VPA. And what's happening in this world for developers is they're having to make decisions on a number of different metrics or resource elements, typically things like memory and CPU, and they have to decide, what are the requests I'm going to allow for this application and what are the limits? So what are those thresholds that I'm going to be okay with? So that I can, again, try to hit my business objectives and keep in line with my SLAs. And to your earlier point in the intro, it's often guesswork. They either have to rely on out of the box recommendations that ship with the databases and other services that they are using, or it's a super manual process to go through and try to configure and tune this. And so with optimized live, we're making that one click. And so we're continuously and consistently observing and watching the data that's flowing through these tools and we're serving back recommendations for the user. They can choose to let those recommendations automatically patch and deploy, or they can retain some semblance of control over the recommendations and manually deploy them into their environment themselves. And we, again, really believe that the user knows their application. They know the goals that they have, we don't, but we have a system that's smart enough to align with the business objectives and ultimately provide the relevant recommendations at that point. >> So the business objectives are an input from the application team. And then your system is smart enough to a adapt and address those? >> Application over application. And so the thresholds in any given organization across their different ecosystem of apps or environment could be different. The business objectives could be different. And so we don't want to predefine that for people. We want to give them the opportunity to build those thresholds in and then allow the machine learning to learn and to send recommendations within those bounds. >> And we're going to hear later from a customer who's hosting a Drupal, one of the largest Drupal hosts. So it's all do it yourself across that of customers. So it's very unpredictable. I want to make something clear though. As to where you fit in the ecosystem, you're not an observability platform, you leverage observability platforms. So talk about that and where you fit in into the ecosystem. >> Yeah. So this is a great point. We're also a series B startup and growing where we've the choice to be very intentionally focused on the problems that we've solve and we've chosen to partner or integrate otherwise. And so we do get put into the APM category from time to time. We are really an intelligence platform and that intelligence and insights that we're able to draw is because of the core machine learning we've built over the years. And we also don't want organizations or users to have to switch from tools and investments that they've already made. And so we were never going to catch up to Datadog or Dynatrace or Splunk or UpDynamics or some of the other. And we're totally fine with that. They've got great market share and penetration. They do solve real problems. Instead, we felt like users would want a seamless integration into the tools they're already using. And so we view ourselves as kind of the Intel inside for that kind of a scenario. And it takes observability and APM data and insights that were somewhat reactive, they're visualized and somewhat reactive and we make those, we add that proactive nature onto it, the insights and ultimately the appropriate level of automation. >> So when I think Matt about cloud native and I go back to the sort of origins of CNCF, it was a handful of companies, and now you look at the participants make your eyes bleed. How do you address dealing with all those companies and what's the partnership strategy? >> Yeah, it's so interesting because, just that even that CNCF landscape has exploded. It was not too long ago where it was as small or smaller than the Finops landscape today, which by the way, the Finops piece is also on a neck breaking growth curve. I do see, although there are a lot of companies and a lot of tools, we're starting to see a significant amount of consistency or hardening of the tool chain with our customers and users. And so we've made strategic and intentional decisions on deep partnerships, in some cases like OEM, uses of our technology and certainly, intelligent and seamless integrations into a few. So we'll be announcing a really exciting partnership with AWS and that specifically what they're doing with EKS, their Kubernetes distribution and services. We've got a deep partnership and integration with Datadog and then with Prometheus, and specifically a few other cloud providers that are operating manage Prometheus environments. >> Okay. So where do you want to take this thing? You're not taking the observability guys head on, smart move. So many of those even entering the market now. But what is the vision? >> Yeah. So we've had this debate a lot as well 'cause it's super difficult to create a category. On one hand, I have a lot of respect for founders and companies that do that, on the other hand, from a market timing standpoint, we fit into AI Ops, that's really where we fit. We've made a bet on the future of Kubernetes and what that's going to look like. And so from a containers and Kubernetes standpoint that's our bet, but we're an AI Ops platform, we'll continue getting better at the problems we solve with machine learning and we'll continue adding data inputs. So we'll go beyond the application layer, which is really where we play now. We'll add kind of whole cluster optimization capabilities across the full stack. And the way we will get there is by continuing to add different data inputs that make sense across the different layers of the stack. And it's exciting. We can stay vertically oriented on the problems that we're really good at solving but we can become more applicable and compatible over time. >> So that's your next concentric circle. As the observability vendors expand their observation space, you can just play right into that? More data you get because your purpose built to solving these types of problems. >> Yeah. So you can imagine a world right now out of observability, we're taking things like telemetry data. Pretty quickly you can imagine a world where we take traces and logs and other data inputs as that ecosystem continues to grow. It just feeds our own, we are reliant on data. >> Excellent. Matt, thank you so much. Appreciate you coming on. >> Thanks for having me. >> Okay. Keep it right there. In a moment, we're going to hear from a customer with a highly diverse and constantly changing environment that I mentioned earlier. They went through a major replatforming with Kubernetes on AWS. You're watching The CUBE, your leader in enterprise tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey everyone, welcome to theCUBE's AWS startup showcase. This is season two of the startup showcase, episode one. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Pleased to be welcoming back one of our alumni, Alexis Richardson, the founder >> Hey. >> and CEO of Weaveworks. Alexis, welcome back to the program. >> Thank you so much, Lisa, I'm really happy to be here. Good to see you again. >> Likewise. So it's been a while since we've had Weaveworks on the program. Give the audience an overview of Weaveworks. You were founded in 2014, pioneering getopts, automating Kubernetes across all industries, but help us understand, unpack that a bit. >> Well, so my previous role was at Pivotal, where I was head of application platform and I was responsible for Spring and Vfabric, and some pieces of Cloud Foundry. And you may remember back in those days, everybody wanted to build like a Heroku, but for the enterprise. And so they were asking, how can we build more cloud services? And my team was involved in building out cloud services, but we were running into trouble with the technology that we had. And then when containers appeared, we thought this is the technology for us to roll out cloud services. So with some of my team, we decided to start a new company, Weaveworks, really intending to focus on developers. Because these new containers were pretty cool, but they were really complex operational centric tools, and enterprise developers need simplicity. That's what we'd learned from things like Spring. They want simplicity, productivity, velocity, all of that stuff, they don't want operational complexity. So Weaveworks' mission is to make applications easy for developers with containers. >> Talk to me about how you've accomplished that over the last seven years, and some of the things that you're doing to facilitate a DevOps practice within organizations across any industry? >> Yeah, well, our story is pretty interesting because of course in 2014, all of this was incredibly new. You couldn't even take two containers and put them together into a single application. So forget about enterprise. What we did was we built a network, which gave the company its name, Weave. But then we spent several years building out more and more pieces of the stack. We decided that we should go to market commercially because we're an open source company with a commercial SaaS. And we thought we would be like new Relic, that there'll be lots of customers in the cloud. And, therefore, they would need monitoring and management. And Weave started writing a SaaS based on Kubernetes, which was what we chose as our platform, back in the day, very, very, very early. We were one of the very first companies to start running Kubernetes in production other than Google. And so what we learned was customers didn't want to have management and monitoring for applications in the cloud, based on Kubernetes. Because they were all still struggling to get Docker working, to get basic Kubernetes clusters set up. And they kept saying to us "this is great, we love your tool, but we really need simpler things right now." So what we had done was we'd learned how to operate Kubernetes. And we discovered that we were doing it in this specific way, a way that meant that we could be reliable, we could set things up remotely, we could move things between zones. And so we called this approach getopts. So we've named the practice of getopts, which is really DevOps for Kubernetes. We decided that it was exciting after we had an outage and made a very quick recovery. Told people about it and they said, "well, we can't even Kubernetes started, let alone recover it from a crash." So we started evangelizing getopts and saying to people that we knew how to set up and run Kubernetes as operators for developers of apps, based on this experience. And people said, "well, why don't you help us do that?" So we pivoted the company away from a SaaS business, doing management, and straight back into enterprise software, providing a solution for people to run Kubernetes stacks, deploy applications, detect drifts, and operate them at scale. And we've never looked back. And since then we've built, very successfully, a big business out of telco customers, banks, car companies, really global two thousands. Starting from that open source base, continuing to respect that, but always keeping in mind helping developers build applications at scale. >> So in terms of that pivot that you've made, it sounds like you made that in conjunction with developers across industries to really understand what the right direction is here. What's the approach, what's their appetite? Talk to me about a customer example or two that really you think articulate the value and the right decision that that pivot was and how you're helping customers to really further their DevOps practice. >> Well, one of our first customers was actually Fidelity in this new world. Fidelity has a very advanced technology organization, a very forward thinking CTO, who I seem to recall is, or CEO, who I think is female. Really is into technology as a source of, you know, velocity and business strength. And we were brought to Fidelity by our partner, Amazon. And they said, "look, Fidelity have been using your open source tools, they want to run on Kubernetes, the early EKS service on AWS, but they need help, because what they want is a shared application platform that people can use across Fidelity to deploy and manage apps." So the idea Fidelity had was they're going to split their IT into a platform team, that was going to provide this platform, and a bunch of app teams that were going to write business apps like risk management, other financial processing. Paths, basically. And we came in to help Fidelity. And what we did was help Fidelity rollout, using getopts, a Amazon wide application platform. We also helped them to build, this was very early days for us post pivot, we really helped them to build an add on layer. So you could take any Kubernetes cluster and add other components to it, and then you'd have your platform right there. And the whole stack would be managed by getopts, which nobody had done before. Nobody who'd come up with a way of managing the whole stack, so you could start and stop stacks wherever you wanted, at will, correctly. I mean, if you talk to people about what's hard in IT, they'll tell you shutting down Kubernetes is hard, 'cause I know I'm never going to know how to start it again. So being able to start and stop things, move them around is really crucial. What Fidelity also wanted, which made I think the whole thing even more exciting, was to duplicate this environment on Azure and actually also on-premise later on. So where Fidelity are today is the whole Fidelity platform runs on Microsoft and on Amazon and on-premise, using three different implementations of Kubernetes. But using this platform technology and getopts that we helped Fidelity rollout. And if you want to know a bit about the story, type FIDEKS, F I D E K S into Google and you'll find a video of me three or four years ago on stage at Cube Con talking with a Fidelity chief architect about this story. It's pretty exciting and these are early days for these new Kubernetes platforms. >> Early days, but so transformative. And I can't imagine the events of the last few years without having this capability and this technology to facilitate such pivots and transformation where we would all be. I want to kind of dig into some use cases, 'cause one of the things that you just mentioned with the Fidelity example got me thinking use case of hybrid, multi-cloud, but also continuous app development. Talk to me about some of the key use cases that you work with customers on. >> Well you just named two. So hybrid and multi-cloud is absolutely critical, and also sovereign, which is when you're actually offline and you only update your cloud periodically. That's one of the major use cases for us. And what customers want there is they want consistency. They want a single operating model, across all of these different locations, so that all of their teams can get trained on one set of technologies and then move from place to place. They're not looking for magic, where apps move with the sun or any of that stuff. They just want to know they can base everything on a single, homogeneous skillset and have scale across their teams. Maybe tens of thousands of developers, all who know how to do the same thing. That's a really important use case. You also mentioned continuous delivery. That's probably the second really critical use case for us. People say, "I've got Kubernetes set up now, and I have Jenkins." At JP Morgan once told me they had 40,000 Jenkins servers, or something like that, you know, Jenkins at scale. And they're like, "okay, how do I push changes from Jenkins into the cloud?" So getopts provides a bridge between the world of CI and the runtime of Kubernetes. So one group of our customers is help me to put that middle piece of CD that gets you CI, CD, to Kubernetes, that's a classic. And then what they're looking for is an increase in velocity. And what we typically see is people go from deploying once every six months to deploying once a week, to deploying once a day, to deploying several times a day. And then they split things up into teams and suddenly, wow, that vision of microservices has come and everybody's excited 'cause IT velocity has gone up by two X. Another really >> So, >> Sorry, carry on. >> Go ahead, I was just going to say in terms of IT velocity it sounds like that's a major business outcome that you're enabling for, whether it's teleco, financial services, or whatnot. That velocity is, as you just described, is rapidly accelerating. >> Yeah, if you go to our website, you'll find a bunch of these use cases. And one that I really like is NatWest mettle, which is another financial example. They're not all financial by the way. But there's some metrics in there. We're getting people up to two X productivity, which at scale is huge, really makes a difference. Also, meantime to recovery. If you know the metric space, you'll know these are all DORA metrics. And DORA, which was acquired by Google a couple of years ago, is a really fantastic analyst in the space that came up with a bunch of ways of thinking about how to measure your performance as a business and IT organization. Recovery time and things like this that you really need to focus on if you're in this world. >> Well, from an IT velocity perspective, if I translate that to business outcomes, especially given the dynamics in the market over the last two years, this is transformative and probably helped a lot of organizations to pivot multiple times during the last couple of years. To get to that survival mode and into that thriving mode, enabling organizations to meet customer demand that was changing faster, et cetera. That's a really big imperative that this technology can deliver to the business. >> Yeah, I mean, that's been huge for us. So when the pandemic first began, obviously, we had some road bumps and there were some challenges, but what we found out very quickly was that people were moving into digital much faster. And we've been mostly enabling them, not just in finance, as I said, but also, car companies, utilities, et cetera. The other one, of course, is modern operations. So, everyone's excited about the potential for automation. If I have thousands and thousands of developers and thousands of applications, do I need thousands of operations staff? And the answer is, with Kubernetes in this new era, you can reduce your operational loads. So that actually very few people are needed to keep systems up, to do basic monitoring, to do redeployments and so on, which are all boring infrastructure tasks that no developer wants to do. If we can automate all of that, we can modernize the whole IT space. And that's what I think the promise of Kubernetes that we're also seeing as well. So applications speed first and then operational competence second. >> So you guys had a launch, here we are in early calendar year 2022, you guys had a launch just about six or eight weeks ago in November of 2021, where you were launching announcing the GA of Weave getopts enterprise, which is a licensed product building on the free open source Weave getopts core. Talk to me about that and what the significance of that is. >> Well, this is an enterprise solution that helps customers build these critical use cases, like shared service platform or secure DevOps or multi-cloud, using getopts, which gives them higher security, lower costs of management, and better operations, and higher velocity. And all of it is taking all the best practices that we've learned starting from those days of running our own Kubernetes stack and then through those early customers like Fidelity into the modern era where we have an at-scale platform for these people. And the crucial properties are it provides you with a platform, it provides you with trusted delivery, and it provides you with what we call release orchestration, which is when you deploy things at scale into production, using tools like canaries and other modern practices. So, all of it is enabling what we call the cloud native enterprise, application delivery, modern operations. >> So what's the upgrade path for customers that are using the free open-source tier to the enterprise package, what does that look like? >> The good news is it's an add on. So, I have been in the industry a while and I strongly believe it's really important that if you have an open source product, you shouldn't ask people to delete it or uninstall it to install your enterprise product, unless you really, really, really have to. And I'm not trying to be picky here. Maybe there are cases where it's important, but actually in our case, it's very simple. If you're already using one of our upstream tools, like Flux, for example, then going from Flux to Weave getopts enterprise is an add-on installation. So you don't have to change or take out what you're doing. You might be using Flux without knowing it. You may not be aware of this, but it's also insight as your AKS and ARC, it's inside the Amazon EKS anywhere bundle. It's available on Alibaba, VMware have used it in cartographer and Tanzu application platform. And even Red Hat use it too in some cases. So you may be using it already, from one of the big vendors who are partners of ours, as a precursor to buying Weave getopts enterprise. So, you know, don't be scared. Get in touch is what I would say to people. >> Get in touch. And of course, folks can go to weave.works to learn more about that. And, also we want to watch the Weave.works space, 'cause you have some news coming out relatively soon that sounds pretty exciting, Alexis. >> Well, I mentioned trusted delivery. And I think one of the things with that is no CIO wants to go faster, unless they also have the safety wheels on, let's face it. And the big question we get asked is "I love this getopts stuff, but how can I bring my team with me? How can I introduce change?" I have all of these approvals mechanisms in place, can I move into the world of getopts? And the answer is yes, yes you can because we now support policy engines as baked into our enterprise product. Now, if you don't know what policy is, it's really a way of applying rules to what you're seeing in IT. And you can detect whether something passes or fails conditions, which means that we can detect if something bad is about to happen in a deployment and stop it from happening, this is really critical. It also goes hand in hand with things like supply chain and security, which I'm sure we read about in the news far too much. >> Yeah, pretty much daily supply chain and security >> Pretty much daily. >> is one of those things that we're all in every generation concerned about. Well, Alexis, it's been a pleasure having you back on the program, talking to us about what's new at Weaveworks, the direction that you're going, how you're helping organizations across industries really advance their DevOps practice. And we will check weave.works in the next couple of weeks for more on that news that you started to break a little bit with us today. We appreciate your time, Alexis. >> Thank you very much, indeed, take care. >> Likewise. For Alexis Richardson, I'm Lisa Martin. Keep it right here on theCUBE, your leader in hybrid tech event coverage. (bright music) (music fades)

>>Good morning from Los Angeles, Lisa Martin here at Qube con cloud native con north America, 2021. This is the cubes third day, a wall-to-wall coverage. So great to be back at an event in person I'm excited to be joined by Vince Wang, senior director of products at 49. We're going to talk security and Kubernetes then welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me. >>So I always love talking to 40 minutes. Cybersecurity is something that is such an impersonal interest of mine. The fording that talks about the importance of integrating security and compliance and the dev sec ops workflow across the container life cycle. Why is this important and how do you help companies achieve it? >>Well, as companies are making digital innovations, they're trying to move faster and as to move faster, or many companies are shifting towards a cloud native approach, uh, rapid integrations, rapid development, and rapid deployment, uh, but sometimes speed, you know, there's a benefit to that, but there's also the downside of that, where, you know, you can lose track of issues and you can, uh, introduce a human error in a problem. So as part of the, as part of the, the, the means to deliver fast while maintaining his six year approach, where both the company and the organizations delivering it and their end customers, it's important to integrate security throughout the entire life cycle. From the moment you start planning and development, and people's in process to when you're developing it and then deploying and running in production, um, the entire process needs to be secured, monitored, and, um, and vetted regularly with good quality, um, processes, deep visibility, and an integrated approach to the problem. Um, and I think the other thing to also consider is in this day and age with the current situation with COVID, there's a lot of, uh, development of employment in terms of what I call NASA dental Baltic cloud, where you're deploying applications in random places, in places that are unplanned because you need speed and that, uh, diversity of infrastructure and diversity of, uh, of clouds and development and things to consider then, uh, produces a lot of, uh, you know, uh, opportunities for security and, and challenges to come about. >>And we've seen so much change from a security perspective, um, the threat landscape over the last 18 months. So it's absolutely critical that the integration happens shifting left. Talk to us about now let's switch topics. Application teams are adopting CIC D uh, CICB workflows. Why does security need to be at the center of that adoption? >>Well, it goes back to my earlier point where when you're moving fast, your organizations are doing, um, you're building, deploying, running continuously and monitoring, and then improving, right? So the idea is you're, you're creating smaller, incremental changes, throwing it to the cloud, running it, adjusting it. So then you're, you're rapidly integrating and you're rapidly developing and delivery. And again, it comes down to that, that rapid nature, uh, things can happen. There's, there's more, uh, more points of touching and there's more points of interactions. And, you know, and again, when you're moving that fast, it's really easy to, um, miss things along the way. So as you have security as a core fundamental element of that DNA, as you're building it, uh, that that's in parallel with everything you're doing, you just make sure that, um, when you do deliver something that is the most secure application possible, you're not exposing your customers or your organizations to unforeseen risks that just kind of sits there. >>Uh, and I think part of that is if you think about cloud infrastructure, misconfiguration is still number one, uh, biggest problem with, uh, with security on the, in the cloud space, there's, uh, tasks and vulnerabilities those, we all know, and there's there's means to control that, but the configurations, when you're storing the data, the registries, all these different considerations that go into a cloud environment, those are the things that organizations need visibility on. And, um, the ability to, to adopt their processes, to be proactive in those things and know what they, uh, do. They just need to know what, what then, where are they're operating in, um, to kind of make these informed decisions. >>That visibility is key. When you're talking with customers in any industry, what are the top three, let's say recommendations to say, here's how you can reduce your exposure to security vulnerabilities in the CIS CD pipeline. What are some of the things that you recommend there to reduce the risk? >>There's a couple, oh, obviously security as a fundamental practice. We've been talking about that. So that's number one, key number. The second thing that I would say would be, uh, when you're adopting solutions, you need to consider the fact that there is a very much of a heterogeneous environment in today's, uh, ecosystem, lots of different clouds, lots of different tools. So integration is key. The ability to, um, have choices of deployment, uh, in terms of where you wanted to play. You don't want to deploy based upon the technology limitations. You want to deploy and operate your business to meet your business needs and having the right of integrations and toolings to, uh, have that flexibility. Now, option is key. And I think the third thing is once you have security, the choices, then you can treat, you create a situation where there's a lot of, uh, you know, process overhead and operational overhead, and you need a platform, a singular cybersecurity platform to kind of bring it all in that can work across multiple technologies and environments, and still be able to control at the visibility and consolidate, uh, policies and nationally consistent across all closet points. >>So we're to the DevOps folks, what are some of the key considerations that they need to take into >>Account to ensure that their container strategy isn't compromising security? Well, I think it comes down to having to think outside of just dev ops, right? You have to, we talk about CIC D you have to think beyond just the build process beyond just where things live. You have to think continuous life cycles and using a cyber security platform that brings it together, such as we have the Fortinet security fabric that does that tying a lot of different integration solutions. We work well within their core, but theirs have the ability to integrate well into various environments that provide that consistent policies. And I think that's the other thing is it's not just about integration. It's about creating that consistency across class. And the reality is also for, I think today's dev ops, many organizations are in transition it's, you know, as, as much as we all think and want to kind of get to that cloud native point in time, the reality is there's a lot of legacy things. >>And so dev ops set ups, the DevSecOps, all these different kind of operational functions need to consider the fact that everything is in transition. There are legacy applications, they are new cloud native top first type of application delivery is using containers of various technologies. And there needs to be a, again, that singular tool, the ability to tie this all together as a single pane of glass, to be able to then navigate emerge between legacy deployments and applications with the new way of doing things and the future of doing things with cloud native, uh, and it comes down again to, to something like the Fortinet security fabric, where we're tying things together, having solutions that can deploy on any cloud, securing any application on any cloud while bringing together that consistency, that visibility and the single point management, um, and to kind of lower that operational overhead and introduce security as part of the entire life cycle. >>Do you have a Vincent example of a customer that 49 has worked with that has done this, that you think really shows the value of what you're able to enable them to achieve? >>We do. We do. We have lots of customers, so can name any one specific customer for various reasons, you know, it's security after all. Um, but the, the most common use cases when customers look at it, that when you, we talked to a CIO, CSO CTO is I think that's a one enter they ask us is, well, how do we, how do we manage in this day and age making these cloud migrations? Everyone? I think the biggest challenge is everyone is in a different point in time in their cloud journey. Um, there's if you talk to a handful of customers or a rueful customers, you're not going to find one single organization that's going to be at the same point in time that matches them yet another person, another organization, in terms of how they're going about their cloud strategies, where they're deploying it at what stage of evolution there are in their organizational transformations. >>Um, and so what they're looking for is that, that that's the ability to deploy and security any application on any topic throughout their entire application life cycle. Um, and so, so the most common things that, that our customers are looking for, um, and, you know, they're doing is they're looking to secure things on the network and then interconnected to the cloud with, uh, to deliver that superior, uh, application experience. So they were deploying something like the security fabric. Uh, again, you know, Fordanet has a cybersecurity approach to that point and securing the native environments. They're looking at dev ops, they're deploying tooling to provide, uh, you know, security posture management, plus a few posture management to look at the things that are doing that, the registries, their environment, the dev environment, to then securing their cloud, uh, networks, uh, like what we do with our FortiGate solutions, where we're deploying things from the dev ops. >>I feel secure in the cloud environment with our FortiGate environments across all the various multitudes of cloud providers, uh, like, uh, AWS Azure, Google cloud, and that time that together with, with some secure, um, interconnections with SD LAN, and then tying that into the liver and productions, um, on the web application side. So it's a very much a continuous life cycle, and we're looking at various things. And again, the other example we have is because of the different places in different, uh, in terms of Tod journeys, that the number one key is the ability to then have that flexibility deployment to integrate well into existing infrastructure and build a roadmap out for, uh, cloud as they evolve. Because when you talk to customers today, um, they're not gonna know where they're going to be tomorrow. They know they need to get there. Uh, they're not sure how they're going to get there. And so what they're doing now is they're getting to cloud as quickly as they can. And then they're looking for flexibility to then kind of adjust and they need a partner like Fordanet to kind of bring that partnership and advisorship to, uh, to those organizations as they make their, their, their strategies clearer and, uh, adjust to new business demands. >>Yeah. That partnership is key there. So afforded it advocates, the importance of taking a platform approach to the application life cycle. Talk to me about what that means, and then give me like the top three considerations that customers need to be considering for this approach. >>Sure. Number one is how flexible is that deployment in terms of, do you, do customers have the option to secure and deploy any application, any cloud, do they have the flexibility of, um, integrating security into their existing toolings and then, uh, changing that out as they need, and then having a partner and a customer solution that kind of grows with that? I think that's the number one. Number two is how well are these, uh, integrations or these flexible options tied together? Um, like what we do with the security fabric, where everything kind of starts with, uh, the idea of a central management console that's, you know, uh, and consistent policies and security, um, from the get-go. And I think the third is, is looking at making sure that the, the, the security integrations, the secure intelligence is done in real time, uh, with a quality source of information, uh, and, and points of, uh, of responsiveness, um, what we do with four guard labs. >>For example, we have swell of large, um, machine learning infrastructure where have supported by all the various customer inputs and great intelligence organizations, but real time intelligence and percussion as part of that deployment life cycle. Again, this kind of really brings it all together, where organizations looking for application security and, and trying to develop in a CSED fashion. And you have the ability to then have security from the get, go hide ident to the existing toolings for flexibility, visibility, and then benefits from security all along the way with real time, you know, uh, you know, leading edge security, that then kind of brings that, that sense of confidence and reassurance as they're developing, they don't need to worry about security. Security should just be part of that. And they just need to worry about solving the customer problems and, uh, and, you know, delivering business outcomes and results. >>That's it, right? It's all about those business outcomes, but delivering that competence is key. Vince, thank you for joining me on the program today, talking through what 49 is doing, how you're helping customers to integrate security and compliance into the dev dev sec ops workflow. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. My >>Pleasure for vents Wang. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from Los Angeles, uh, cube con and cloud native con 21 stick around at Dave Nicholson will join me next with my next guest.

>>Welcome to this cube conversation. I'm Dave Nicholson and we're having this conversation in advance of cube con cloud native con north America, 2021. Uh, we are going to be talking specifically about a subject near and dear to my heart, and that is security. We have a very special guest from red hat, the security lead from the office of the CTO. New kinds. Welcome. Welcome to the cube Luke. >>Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you, David. Really looking forward to this conversation. >>So you have a session, uh, at a CubeCon slash cloud native con this year. And, uh, frankly, I look at the title and based on everything that's going on in the world today, I'm going to accuse you of clickbait because the title of your session is a secure supply chain vision. Sure. What other than supply chain has is in the news today, all of these things going on, but you're talking about the software supply chain. Aren't you tell, tell us about, tell us about this vision, where it came from Phyllis in. >>Yes, very much. So I do agree. It is a bit of a buzzword at the moment, and there is a lot of attention. It is the hot topic, secure supply chains, thanks to things such as the executive order. And we're starting to see an increase in attacks as well. So there's a recent statistic came out that was 620%. I believe increase since last year of supply chain attacks involving the open source ecosystem. So things are certainly ramping up. And so there is a bit of clickbait. You got me there. And um, so supply chains, um, so it's predominantly let's consider what is a supply chain. Okay. And we'll, we'll do this within the context of cloud native technology. Okay. Cause there's many supply chains, you know, many, many different software supply chains. But if we look at a cloud native one predominantly it's a mix of people and machines. >>Okay. So you'll have your developers, uh, they will then write code. They will change code and they'll typically use our, a code revision control system, like get, okay, so they'll make their changes there. Then push those changes up to some sort of repository, typically a get Harbor or get level, something like that. Then another human will then engage and they will review the code. So somebody that's perhaps a maintain will look at the code and they'll improve that a code. And then at the same time, the machine start to get involved. So you have your build servers that run tests and integration tests and they check the code is linted correctly. Okay. And then you have this sort of chain of events that start to happen. These machines, these various actors that start to play their parts in the chain. Okay. So your build system might generate a container image is a very common thing within a cloud native supply chain. >>Okay. And then that image is typically deployed to production or it's hosted on a registry, a container registry, and then somebody else might utilize that container image because it has software that you've packaged within that container. Okay. And then this sort of prolific expansion of use of coasts where people start to rely on other software projects for their own dependencies within their code. Okay. And you've got this kind of a big spaghetti of actors that are dependent on each other and feed him from each other. Okay. And then eventually that is deployed into production. Okay. So these machines are a lot of them non open source code. Okay. Even if there is a commercial vendor that manages that as a service, it's all based on predominantly open source code. Okay. And the security aspects with the supply chain is there's many junctures where you can exploit that supply chain. >>So you can exploit the human, or you could be a net ferrous human in the first place you could steal somebody's identity. Okay. And then there's the build systems themselves where they generate these artifacts and they run jobs. Okay. And then there are the production system, which pulls these down. Okay. And then there's the element of which we touched upon around libraries and dependencies. So if you look at a lot of projects, they will have approximately around a hundred, perhaps 500 dependencies that they all pull in from. Okay. So then you have the supply chains within each one of those, they've got their own set of humans and machines. And so it's a very large spaghetti beast of, of, of sort of dependence and actors and various identities that make up. >>Yeah. You're, you're describing a nightmarish, uh, scenario here. So, uh, so, so I definitely appreciate the setup there. It's a chain of custody nightmare. Yeah. >>Yes. Yeah. But it's also a wonderful thing because it's allowed us to develop in the paradigms that we have now very fast, you know, you can, you can, you can prototype and design and build and ship very fast, thanks to these tools. So they're wonderful. It's not to say that they're, you know, that there is a gift there, but security has arguably been left as a bit of an afterthought essentially. Okay. So security is always trying to it's at the back of the race. It's always trying to catch up with you. See what I mean? So >>Well, so is there a specific reason why this is particularly timely? Um, in, you know, when we, when we talk about deployment of cloud native applications, uh, something like 75% of what we think of is it is still on premesis, but definitely moving in the direction of what we loosely call cloud. Um, is why is this particularly timely? >>I think really because of the rampant adoption that we see. So, I mean, as you rightly say, a lot of, uh, it companies are still running on a, sort of a, more of a legacy model okay. Where deployments are more monolithic and statics. I mean, we've both been around for a while when we started, you would, you know, somebody would rack a server, they plug a network cable and you'd spend a week deploying the app, getting it to run, and then you'd walk away and leave it to a degree. Whereas now obviously that's really been turned on its head. So there is a, an element of not everybody has adopted this new paradigm that we have in development, but it is increasing, there is rapid adoption here. And, and many that aren't many that rather haven't made that change yet to, to migrate to a sort of a cloud type infrastructure. >>They certainly intend to, well, they certainly wished to, I mean, there's challenges there in itself, but it, I would say it's a safe bet to say that the prolific use of cloud technologies is certainly increasing as we see in all the time. So that also means the attack vectors are increasing as we're starting to see different verticals come into this landscape that we have. So it's not just your kind of a sort of web developer that are running some sort of web two.site. We have telcos that are starting to utilize cloud technology with virtual network functions. Uh, we have, um, health banking, FinTech, all of these sort of large verticals are starting to come into cloud and to utilize the cloud infrastructure model that that can save them money, you know, and it can make them, can make their develop more agile and, you know, there's many benefits. So I guess that's the main thing is really, there's a convergence of industries coming into this space, which is starting to increase the security risks as well. Because I mean, the security risks to a telco are a very different group to somebody that's developing a web platform, for example. >>Yeah. Yeah. Now you, you, uh, you mentioned, um, the sort of obvious perspective from the open source perspective, which is that a lot of this code is open source code. Um, and then I also, I assume that it makes a lot of sense for the open source community to attack this problem, because you're talking about so many things in that chain of custody that you described where one individual private enterprise is not likely to be able to come up with something that handles all of it. So, so what's your, what's your vision for how we address this issue? I know I've seen in, um, uh, some of the content that you've produced an allusion to this idea that it's very similar to the concept of a secure HTTP. And, uh, and so, you know, imagine a world where HTTP is not secure at any time. It's something we can't imagine yet. We're living in this parallel world where, where code, which is one of the four CS and cloud security, uh, isn't secure. So what do we do about that? And, and, and as you share that with us, I want to dive in as much as we can on six store explain exactly what that is and, uh, how you came up with this. >>Yes, yes. So, so the HTTP story's incredibly apt for where we are. So around the open source ecosystem. Okay. We are at the HTTP stage. Okay. So a majority of code is pulled in on trusted. I'm not talking about so much here, somebody like a red hat or, or a large sort of distributor that has their own sign-in infrastructure, but more sort of in the, kind of the wide open source ecosystem. Okay. The, um, amount of code that's pulled in on tested is it's the majority. Okay. So, so it is like going to a website, which is HTTP. Okay. And we sort of use this as a vision related to six store and other projects that are operating in this space where what happened effectively was it was very common for sites to run on HTTP. So even the likes of Amazon and some of the e-commerce giants, they used to run on HTTP. >>Okay. And obviously they were some of the first to, to, uh, deploy TLS and to utilize TLS, but many sites got left behind. Okay. Because it was cumbersome to get the TLS certificate. I remember doing this myself, you would have to sort of, you'd have to generate some keys, the certificate signing request, you'd have to work out how to run open SSL. Okay. You would then go to an, uh, a commercial entity and you'd probably have to scan your passport and send it to them. And there'll be this kind of back and forth. Then you'll have to learn how to configure it on your machine. And it was cumbersome. Okay. So a majority just didn't bother. They just, you know, they continue to run their, their websites on protected. What effectively happened was let's encrypt came along. Okay. And they disrupted that whole paradigm okay. >>Where they made it free and easy to generate, procure, and set up TLS certificates. So what happened then was there was a, a very large change that the kind of the zeitgeists changed around TLS and the expectations of TLS. So it became common that most sites would run HTTPS. So that allowed the browsers to sort of ring fence effectively and start to have controls where if you're not running HTTPS, as it stands today, as it is today is kind of socially unacceptable to run a site on HTTP is a bit kind of, if you go to HTTP site, it feels a bit, yeah. You know, it's kind of, am I going to catch a virus here? It's kind of, it's not accepted anymore, you know, and, and it needed that disruptor to make that happen. So we want to kind of replicate that sort of change and movement and perception around software signing where a lot of software and code is, is not signed. And the reason it's not signed is because of the tools. It's the same story. Again, they're incredibly cumbersome to use. And the adoption is very poor as well. >>So SIG stores specifically, where did this, where did this come from? And, uh, and, uh, what's your vision for the future with six? >>Sure. So six door, six doors, a lockdown project. Okay. It started last year, July, 2020 approximately. And, uh, a few people have been looking at secure supply chain. Okay. Around that time, we really started to look at it. So there was various people looking at this. So it's been speaking to people, um, various people at Purdue university in Google and, and other, other sort of people trying to address this space. And I'd had this idea kicking around for quite a while about a transparency log. Okay. Now transparency logs are actually, we're going back to HTTPS again. They're heavily utilized there. Okay. So when somebody signs a HTTPS certificate as a root CA, that's captured in this thing called a transparency log. Okay. And a transparency log is effectively what we call an immutable tamper proof ledger. Okay. So it's, it's kind of like a blockchain, but it's different. >>Okay. And I had this idea of what, if we could leverage this technology okay. For secure supply chain so that we could capture the provenance of code and artifacts and containers, all of these actions, these actors that I described at the beginning in the supply chain, could we utilize that to provide a tamper resistant publicly or DePaul record of the supply chain? Okay. So I worked on a prototype wherever, uh, you know, some, uh, a week or two and got something basic happening. And it was a kind of a typical open source story there. So I wouldn't feel right to take all of the glory here. It was a bit like, kind of, you look at Linux when he created a Linux itself, Linus, Torvalds, he had an idea and he shared it out and then others started to jump in and collaborate. So it's a similar thing. >>I, um, shared it with an engineer from Google's open source security team called Dan Lawrence. Somebody that I know of been prolific in this space as well. And he said, I'd love to contribute to this, you know, so can I work this? And I was like, yeah, sure though, you know, the, the more, the better. And then there was also Santiago professor from Purdue university took an interest. So a small group of people started to work on this technology. So we built this project that's called Rico, and that was effectively the transparency log. So we started to approach projects to see if they would like to, to utilize this technology. Okay. And then we realized there was another problem. Okay. Which was, we now have a storage for signed artifacts. Okay. A signed record, a Providence record, but nobody's signing anything. So how are we going to get people to sign things so that we can then leverage this transparency log to fulfill its purpose of providing a public record? >>So then we had to look at the signing tools. Okay. So that's where we came up with this really sort of clever technology where we've managed to create something called ephemeral keys. Okay. So we're talking about a cryptographic key pair here. Okay. And what we could do we found was that we could utilize other technologies so that somebody wouldn't have to manage the private key and they could generate keys almost point and click. So it was an incredibly simple user experience. So then we realized, okay, now we've got an approach for getting people to sign things. And we've also got this immutable, publicly audited for record of people signing code and containers and artifacts. And that was the birth of six store. Then. So six store was created as this umbrella project of all of these different tools that were catering towards adoption of signing. And then being able to provide guarantees and protections by having this transparency log, this sort of blockchain type technology. So that was where we really sort of hit the killer application there. And things started to really lift off. And the adoption started to really gather steam then. >>So where are we now? And where does this go into the future? One of the, one of the wonderful things about the open source community is there's a sense of freedom in the creativity of coming up with a vision and then collaborating with others. Eventually you run headlong into expectations. So look, is this going to be available for purchase in Q1? What's the, >>Yeah, I, I will, uh, I will fill you in there. Okay. So, so with six door there's, um, there's several different models that are at play. Okay. I'll give you the, the two predominant ones. So one, we plan, we plan to run a public service. Okay. So this will be under the Linux foundation and it'll be very similar to let's encrypt. So you as a developer, if you want to sign your container, okay. And you want to use six door tooling that will be available to you. There'll be non-profit three to use. There's no specialties for anybody. It's, it's there for everybody to use. Okay. And that's to get everybody doing the right thing in signing things. Okay. The, the other model for six stories, this can be run behind a firewall as well. So an enterprise can stand up their own six store infrastructure. >>Okay. So the transparency log or code signing certificates, system, client tools, and then they can sign their own artifacts and secure, better materials, all of these sorts of things and have their own tamper-proof record of everything that's happened. So that if anything, untoward happens such as a key compromise or somebody's identity stolen, then you've got a credible source of truth because you've got that immutable record then. So we're seeing, um, adoption around both models. We've seen a lot of open source projects starting to utilize six store. So predominantly key, um, Kubernetes is a key one to mention here they are now using six store to sign and verify their release images. Okay. And, uh, there's many other open-source projects that are looking to leverage this as well. Okay. And then at the same time, various people are starting to consider six door as being a, sort of an enterprise signing solution. So within red hat, our expectations are that we're going to leverage this in open shift. So open shift customers who wish to sign their images. Okay. Uh, they want to sign their conflicts that they're using to deploy within Kubernetes and OpenShift. Rather they can start to leverage this technology as open shift customers. So we're looking to help the open source ecosystem here and also dog food, this, and make it available and useful to our own customers at red hat. >>Fantastic. You know, um, I noticed the red hat in the background and, uh, and, uh, you know, I just a little little historical note, um, red hat has been there from the beginning of cloud before, before cloud was cloud before there was anything credible from an enterprise perspective in cloud. Uh, I, I remember in the early two thousands, uh, doing work with tree AWS and, uh, there was a team of red hat folks who would work through the night to do kernel level changes for the, you know, for the Linux that was being used at the time. Uh, and so a lot of, a lot of what you and your collaborators do often falls into the category of, uh, toiling in obscurity, uh, to a certain degree. Uh, we hope to shine light on the amazing work that you're doing. And, um, and I, for one appreciate it, uh, I've uh, I've, I've suffered things like identity theft and, you know, we've all had brushes with experiences where compromise insecurity is not a good thing. So, um, this has been a very interesting conversation. And again, X for the work that you do, uh, do you have any other, do you have any other final thoughts or, or, uh, you know, points that we didn't cover on this subject that come to mind, >>There is something that you touched upon that I'd like to illustrate. Okay. You mentioned that, you know, identity theft and these things, well, the supply chain, this is critical infrastructure. Okay. So I like to think of this as you know, there's, sir, they're serving, you know, they're solving technical challenges and, you know, and the kind of that aspect of software development, but with the supply chain, we rely on these systems. When we wake up each morning, we rely on them to stay in touch with our loved ones. You know, we are our emergency services, our military, our police force, they rely on these supply chains, you know, so I sort of see this as there's a, there's a bigger vision here really in protecting the supply chain is, is for the good of our society, because, you know, a supply chain attack can go very much to the heart of our society. You know, it can, it can be an attack against our democracies. So I, you know, I see this as being something that's, there's a humanistic aspect to this as well. So that really gets me fired up to work on this technology., >>it's really important that we always keep that perspective. This isn't just about folks who will be attending CubeCon and, uh, uh, uh, cloud con uh, this is really something that's relevant to all of us. So, so with that, uh, fantastic conversation, Luke, it's been a pleasure to meet you. Pleasure to talk to you, David. I look forward to, uh, hanging out in person at some point, whatever that gets me. Uh, so with that, uh, we will sign off from this cube conversation in anticipation of cloud con cube con 2021, north America. I'm Dave Nicholson. Thanks for joining us.

>>Oh, welcome back to the cubes coverage of coop con cloud native con 2021. I'm John is the Cuba, David Nicholson, our cloud host analyst, and it's exciting to be back in person in event. So we're back. It's been two years with the cube con and Linux foundation. So scrape, it was a hybrid event and we have a great guest here, Cuban London, Nick Dirk, and CT field CTO of harness and harness.io. The URL love the.io. Good to see you. >>Thank you guys for having me on. I genuinely appreciate >>It. Thanks for coming on. You were a part of our AWS startup showcase, which you guys were featured as a fast growing mature company, uh, as cloud scales, you guys have been doing extremely well. So congratulations. But now we're in reality now, right? So, okay. Cloud native has kind of like, okay, we don't have to sell it anymore. People buying into it. Um, and now operationalizing it with cloud operations, which means you're running stuff, applications and infrastructure is code and it costs money. Yeah. Martine Casada at Andreessen Horowitz. Oh, repatriated from the cloud. So there's a lot of, there's some cost conversations starting to happen. This is what you guys are in the middle of. >>Yeah, absolutely. What's interesting is when you think about it today, we want to shift left. When you want to empower all the engineers, we want to empower people. We're not giving them the data they need, right. They get a call from the CFO 30 days later, as opposed to actually being able to look at what change I did and how it actually affected. And this is what we're bringing in. Allowing people to have is now really empowering. So throughout the whole software delivery life cycle from CGI continuous integration, continuous delivery feature flagging, and even bringing cost modeling and in cloud cost management. And even then being able to shut down, shut down the services that you're not using, how much of that is waste. We talk about it. Every single cloud conference it's how much is waste. And so being able to actually turn those on, use those accordingly and then take advantage of even the cheapest instances when you should. That's really what >>It's so funny. People almost trip over dollars to pick up pennies in the cloud business because they're so focused on innovation that they think, okay, we've got to just innovate at all costs, but at some point you can make it productive for the developers in process in the pipeline to actually manage that. >>That's exactly it. I mean, if you think about it to me in order to breach state continuous delivery, we have to automate everything. Right. But that doesn't mean stop at just delivering, you know, to production. That means to customer, which means we've got to make them happy, but then ultimately all of those resources in dev and QA and staging and UAT, we've sticker those as well. And if we're not being mindful of it, the costs are astronomical, right. And we've seen it time and time again with every company you see, you've seen every article about how they've blown through all their budgets. So bring it to the people that can affect change. That's really the difference, making it visible, looking at it. In-depth not just at the cloud level and all the spend there, but also even at the, uh, thinking about it, the Kubernetes level down to the containers, the pods and understanding where are the resources even inside of the clusters and bringing that as an aggregate, not just for visibility and, and giving recommendations, but now more importantly, because part of a pipeline start taking action. That's where it's interesting. It's not just about being able to see it and understand it and hope, right? Hope is not a strategy acting upon it is what makes it valuable. And that's part of the automate everything. >>Yeah. We'll let that at the Dawn of the age of DevOps, uh, there was a huge incentive for a developer just to get their job done, to seize control of infrastructure, the idea of infrastructure as code, you know, and it's, it's, you know, w when it was being born, it's a fantastic, I've always wondered though, you know, be careful what you wish for. Do you really want all of that responsibility? So we've got responsibility from a compliance and security perspective and of course cost. So, so where do we, where do we go from here, I guess is the question. Yeah. So >>When we look at building this all together, I think when we think about software delivery, everybody wants to go fast. We start with velocity, right? Everybody says, that's where I want to go. And to your point with governance compliance, the next roadblock to hit is weight. In order to go fast, I have to do it appropriately. I've got governing bodies that tell me how this has to work. And that becomes a challenge. >>It slows it down too. It doesn't, I mean, basically people are getting pissed off, right? This is, this general sentiment is, is that developers are moving fast with their code. And then they have to stop. Compliance has to give the green light sometimes days, correct? Uh, it used to be weeks now. It's days, it's still unacceptable. So there's like this always been that tension to the security groups or say it, or finance was like slow down and they actually want to go faster. So that has to be policy-based something. Yep. This is the future. What is your take on that? >>Take on, this is pretty simple. When everybody talks about people, process and technology, it's kind of bogus, right? It's all about confidence. If you're confident that your developers can deploy appropriately and they're not going to do something wrong, you'll let them to play all the time. Well, that requires process. But if you have tooling that literally guarantees your governance, make sure that at no point in time, can any of your developers actually do something wrong. Now you have, >>That's the key. That's the key. That's the key because you're giving them a policy-based guardrails to execute in their programs >>And that's it. So now you can free up all those pieces. So all those bottlenecks, all those waiting all those time, and this is how all of our customers, they move from, you know, change advisory boards that approve deployments. >>Can you give us some, give us some, give us some, uh, customer anecdotal examples of this inaction and kind of the love letters you get, or, or the customer you take us through a use case of how it all. >>So this is one of my favorites. So NCR national cash register. If you slide a credit card at like a Chick-fil-A or a Safeway, right? Um, traditional technology. But what was interesting is they went from doing PCI audit, which would take seven days to go to a PCI audit right now with harness, because, >>And by the way, when you and the seventh, six day, the things that you did on day one change. >>Exactly, exactly. And so now, because of using harness and everything's audited, and all the changes are, are controlled to make sure that developers again, can only do what they're allowed. They only get to broadcast two per production. If they've met all their security requirements, all their compliance, permits, all their quality checks. Now, because of that, they literally gave a re read only view of harness to their auditor. And in three hours it was over. And it's because now we're that evidence file from code commit through to production. Yeah. It's there for point of sale compliant. >>So what is the benefits to them? What's the result saves them time, saves the money. What's the good, the free up more times. I'll see the chops it down. That's the key. >>Yeah. It's actually something we didn't build in like our ROI calculators, which was, we talked to their engineers and we gave them their nights and their weekends back, which I thought was amazing. But Thursday night, when we're doing that deploy, they don't have to be up. Harness is actually managing and understanding, using machine learning to understand what normal looks like. So they don't have to, they don't have to sit and look at the knock or sit in the war room and eat the free pizza. Yeah. Right. And then when those things break, same concept rates aren't as good. So >>I got to ask you, I got you here. You know, as the software development delivery lifecycle is radically being overhauled right now, which people generally agree that that's the case, the old models are, are different. How do you see your vision around AI and automation playing into this? Because you could say, okay, we're going to have different kinds of coding styles. This batch has got an AI block here. It's very Lego block. Like yep. Okay. Services and higher level services in the cloud. What's your reaction to how this impacts automation and >>Sure. So throughout our entire platform, we've designed our AI to take care of the worst parts of anyone's job as Guinea dev ops person. If they love babysitting deployments, they don't harness handles that for them, ask your engineers that they love sitting there waiting for their tests to run. Every time they build, they go get coffee, right. Because we're waiting for all of our tests to run. Y yeah. Right. The reality >>Is sometimes they have to wait days and >>That's it. But like, if I change the gas cap on, uh, on your car, would you expect me to check every light switch and every electronic piece? No. Well, why do we do that with code? And so our AI, our ML is designed to remove all the things that people hate. It's not to remove people's jobs. It's actually to make their jobs much better. >>How do you guys feed the data? What's the training algorithm for that? How does that work? Yeah, >>Actually, it's interesting. A lot of people think it's going to take a ton of time to figure this out. The good news is we start seeing this on the second deployment. On the second bill, we have to have a baseline of what good looks like, and that's where it starts. And it goes from there. And by the way, this isn't a lot of people say AI, and this AML, I teach a class on this because ML is not standard deviation. It's not some checks. So we use a massive amount of machine learning, but we have neural networks to think about things like engineers do. Like if we looked at a log and I saw the same log with two different user IDs, you and I would know, well, it's the same thing. It's just different users, but machine learning models. Don't so we've got to build neural networks to actually think like humans. So that, >>So that's the whole expectation maximization kind of concept of people talk about, >>Well, and that's it because at the end of the day, we're like I said, I'm not trying to take people's jobs. I want to meet. >>Yeah. You want to do the crap work out of the way. And I had to do other redundant, heavy lifting that they have to do every single time we use the cloud way. We've >>Built mechanical muscle in, in the early 19 hundreds. Right. And it made everyone's jobs easier, allowed them to do more with their time. That's exactly what we're doing here. >>I mean, we've seen the big old guys in the industry trying to evolve. You got the hot startups coming out. So you got, you know, adapt or die as classic thing. We've been saying for many years, David on the cube, you know that. So it's like, this is a moment of truth. We're going to see who comes out the other side. How do you, Nick, what would you be your, your kind of guess of when that other side is, when are we gonna know the winners and the losers truly in the sense of where we are now? >>So I think what I've found is that in this space specifically, there's a constant shift and this is something with software. And the problem is, is that we see them come in ebbs and flows, right. And very few times are there businesses that actually carry the model? And what you find is that when they focus on one specific problem, it solves it. Now, if I was working on VMs a few years ago, great, but now we're, we're here at coop con, right? And that's because it's eaten, uh, that side of the world. And so I think it's the companies that can actually grow the test of time and continue to expand to where the problems are. Right. And that's one of the things that I traditionally think about harness and we've done it. We cover our customers where they were, I think the old mainframes, if you had to, where they were, where they are at their traditional, their VM. >>I mean, if you think about it, Nick, it's one of those things where it's like, that's such a common sense way to look at it evolves with a problem. So I ride the right with tech ways. But if you think about the high order bit, here is just applications. We ended the day. Companies have applications that they want to write modern. The applications of their business is going to be codified so that you just work backwards from there. Then you say, okay, what is the infrastructure as code working for me? That's an ethos of dev ops. And that's where we're at. So that's why I think that the cloud need is kind of one already, but we still have the edge devices, more complexity. This is a huge next level conversation at one point is that we just put a hard and top on the complexity. When is that coming? Because the developers are clear. They want to go fast. They want to go shift left and have all that data, get the right analytics, the telemetry and the AI. But it's too complicated still. That is a big problem. >>It's too complicated. You ask for a full-stack developer to also know infrastructure, to also know edge computing. Like it's impossible, right? And this is where tooling helps, right? Because if you can actually parameterize that and make it to the engineers and have to care, they can do what they're best at. Hey, I'm great at turning code in artifact, let them do that and have tooling take care of the rest. This is where our goal is. Again, allow people >>We'll do what they love. And this is kind of the new roles that are changing. What SRE has done. Everyone talks about the SRE and some states just as he had dev ops guy, but it's not just that there's also, uh, different roles emerging. It's, it's an architectural game. At this point, we would say, >>I'd say a hundred percent. And this is where the decisions that you make on are architecturally. If you don't know how to then roll them out, this is what we've seen. Time and time again, you go to these large companies, I've got these great architectures on planning four years later, we haven't reached it because to that point process, >>The process killed them four >>Different new tools throughout the process. Well, yeah. >>So when do we hit peak Kubernetes peak >>Kubernetes? I think we have a bit to go in and I'm excited about the networking space and really what we're doing there and, and bringing that holistic portion of the network, like when Istio was originally released, I thought that was one of the most amazing things, uh, to truly come to it. And I think there's a vast space in networking. Um, and, and so I think in the next few years, we're going to see this, you know, turn into that a hundred percent utilized across the board. This will be that where everyone's workloads continue to exist. Um, somewhat like VMs we're in >>And, and, and no, no fear of developers as code in the very near future. You're talking about automating the mundane. Correct. Uh, there have been stories recently about the three-day workweek, you know, as a, as a fan of, um, utopian science fiction, myself, as opposed to dystopian. Absolutely. I think that, you know, technology does have the opportunity to lift all boats and, uh, and it's, it's not nothing to be afraid of. You know, the fact that I put my dishes in the dishwasher and they run by themselves for three hours. It's a good thing. It's a great thing. >>I don't need to deal with that. Yeah, I agree. No, I think that's, and that's what I said in the beginning. Right. That's really where we can start empowering people. So allow them to do what they're good at and do what they're best at. And if you look at why do people quit? We don't have to go so hard to find. Yeah. Why? Because they're secondary to babysit and implement and they're told everywhere they go, they're not going to have to >>That's the line. And that's all right. We got a break, but it's great insight to have you on the Q one final question for you. Um, I got to ask about the whole data as code something that I've been riffing on for a bunch of years now. And as infrastructures could we get that, but data is now the resource everyone needs, and everyone's trying to, okay, I have the control plane for this and that, but ultimately data cannot be siloed. This is a critical architectural element. How does that get resolved in the land of the competitive advantage and lock in and whatnot? What's your take on that? >>So data's an interesting one because it has, it has gravity and this is the problem. And as we move, as I think you guys know, as you move to the edge as remove, move it places there's insights to be taken at the edge there's insights to be taken as it moves through. And I think what you'll see honestly, going forward is you'll see compute done differently to your point. It needs to be aggregated. It needs to be able to be used together, but I think you'll see people computing it on its way through it. So now even in transport, you'll start seeing insights gained in real time before you can have the larger insights. And I see that happening more and more. Um, and I think ultimately we just want to empower that >>Nick, great to have you on CTO of field CTO of harness and harness.io is a URL. Check it out. Thanks for the insight. Thank you so much. Great comments. Appreciate it. Natural cube analysts right here, Nick, of course, we've got our, our analysts right here, David Nicholson. You're good on your own. I'm John for a, you know, we have the host. Thanks for watching. Stay with two more days of coverage. We'll be back after this short break.

>>Okay, welcome back to the Cube coverage of Dr Khan 2021. I'm John for your host. Had a great guest here. Dana Lawson. Vice president. Engineering and technology partnerships that get up dana. Welcome to the cube. You're leading the engineering team over at GIT hub. Been been around the block in the cloud enterprise area. Congratulations. Welcome to the cube. >>Well, thanks for having me. Don, I am super excited. Dr. 2021 Wow. I can't believe it's been that long. Right. >>Got the keynote coverage automation. The top trend here in the world. DevoPS DEP sec apps, developer productivity, modern errors here, a lot of action uh and dr conscious more attendance every year, containers setting up the cloud native. You know the tsunami of new ways that people are programming. New way teams are formed new way people are being super productive with the pandemic. We've seen developers really lead the charge in the virtual work environment. So a lot of action. So first tell us what's going on in the developer community right now, give us your take, >>I mean, my take on it is the developer teams are just working closer than ever before. You know, we see this across all industries, whether you're going through your own digital transformation and trying to streamline your workflow, um you know, we have this concept of devops now for about a decade and and we all were hopeful I was one of those early adopters that like, yes, this will change the world, as you can imagine, and like we're seeing it materialized and I feel like in this historic year, uh it's on steroids, we see teams working across the aisle doing things we've never experienced before with this concept of interconnected tools. And so we're seeing really the, I would say the practice of devops really going across every member of the team and not being just a practice that maybe one person on your team did. You know, this trend has been ongoing for a while. But with these new key technologies out there, it's really on fire in my opinion, >>outside of just the whole cloud native awesomeness that's happening. You see kubernetes enabling a lot of new things, the virtual work environment with the pandemic developers, just like just the way we've been working a long time. Finally, it just got standardized for the rest of the world, the world. Um they didn't really miss a beat and, and combined again with the cloud scale and we saw the earnings from all the big companies, the developers have been super productive this year. Do you see um that continuing and what, how is it going to change in your opinion as the pandemic kind of lifts a little bit and now the new normal gets back to real life. Certainly those benefits came out is what's your take on this engineering dynamic going on. >>I mean you said it they're like this is a common kind of workflow that people had pre pandemic, especially in the open source community where it's literally a bunch of random people around the world that don't obviously get to talk as as quickly and as uh you know, synchronously and so a saint communications gone up in what we've seen there is teams really tuning in their automation, right? So whereas you may have had it in your backlog to say, you know what, I should probably go automate that workflow now that we have been forced. Even even companies that haven't haven't thought about in the past to say, okay, how do I get code from A to B. Seamlessly? There's spending time on those workflows. and I think that we're seeing that naturally, you know, in the keynote where I mentioned some of the Research that we've done is we're seeing developers work more but we're seeing them work more on open source projects and the things that they want to work on not necessarily going and saying I'm going to go and spend 20 hours at work. But really it's that that continuation of like hey instead of automation being an afterthought we're gonna make it something that is at the forethought of what we're doing. And so what it's really done is just increase the time spent on writing great code and hopefully having a better up time. I am a I am a DEvops SRE sys admin, whatever you wanna call it at heart forever will be. Um and so you know, getting to have more time to spend on S. L. O. S. And really the, you know like I call it the safety guards, the rails of your system so that you can just really go in there and allow everybody to contribute. And that's what I think we're seeing and we're going to continue to see that as things just get easier as stuff happens out of the virtual box. >>I mean simple or easy. It's always a good strategy. I was just reporting for our team on the cube con and cloud native con. There's more cloud native con going on than cube con because kubernetes got kind of boring. Um, and enabled more cloud native development. And then the other trend that we've been reporting on is end user contribution to open sores. You're starting to see end users, not just the usual suspects like lift and whatnot. You're seeing like real enterprises like having teams contributing into open source in a big way. This is a kind of a new, interesting dynamic. What's your take on that? Is that a signal of simplicity? What does it mean? >>I'm going to tell you, I think that companies and big names that realized they were using open source and they have been all along, um, it's been around for a minute. Some of our most favorite libraries and frameworks have been open source from the beginning. You hear me talking about Java and Tomcat that's open source. And so it's really this understanding of the workflow. So I want to say that what we see now is there should be an investment because the world's team of open source developers are powering our technology and why shouldn't we as companies embrace and actually get back and spend that quality time because us innovating together on open source privately and publicly just makes everything better for everybody. And so I I think we're going to continue to see this trim. I'm excited about it. GIT hub has done some amazing work in this space by with get up sponsors because we want open source to continue to enable the innovation and having people participate. And now we're seeing it with businesses alike. And so I think we're going to see this practice continue on and really take a look not only of the technology they're using, but the open source practices like how do these maintainers and these open source teams shit reliable quality code that is changing the world. And how can we put those practices within our own development teams on what we're building for our customers? So you're just going to continue to see this. And I think also with that being said because the barrier of entry has has lowered some by the advancement. What we're seeing the rise of the citizen developer as well. So we're seeing you know people all within the company and some that are much more further along with their transformations participate in a way they never have before. Whether it's like you know the design part in the design thinking of it to like how do you curate and have a great experience for your customers. We're just seeing participation at all levels of development stack and that also is the stuff outside of the actual code being written because it's so interconnected and so I I don't know I'm excited. I'm excited to see what we're going to unlock by having people participate more so than ever and then having companies invest in that participation. >>I love your enthusiasm. I agree. I think it's a great time for open source because it has democratized, it is bringing in new people. The aperture of the personas coming in >>is not >>just computer science and engineering. This hybrid SRE rolls developing and then you've got creative. There's a creativity aspect coming back and I've been riffing on this for a few years but I'm kind of seeing this development, love to get your thoughts used to be like craftsmanship was involved in building software and then Agile came in ship fast and iterate. Um and now craft is coming back. You're starting to see creativity and the developer experience through collaboration tools and kind of this democratization. What's your thoughts on this? And no, I know you I know you think about this as an engineering leader. Um Craft agile bring them both together. Speed and quality is craft coming back. >>Craft is definitely coming back and I think it is because we we melt the mundane stuff, right? Like, you know, we're all hyper focused on like you want to be the bush out there, you gotta ship immediately agile, agile, agile. But what we know is like you can ship a bunch of stuff, nobody wants very fast, you can ship a bunch of stuff that hasn't been curated to really, you know, solve the problem now, you'll be fast but will be awesome. I think people demand more. And I really believe that because we've embraced some of these frameworks, workflows and tool sets, that we get a focus on the craft and that's what we're trying to do, right? Ultimately we want every person that builds to be an innovator and not just an innovator for innovation state, but because they're changing and affecting somebody's life, right? And so when we dig deep and focusing on the craft, and we still have these expertise, we're just gonna be applying that in a very intentional way versus okay, hurry up. Bill, Bill Bill, hurry up, hurry up. Bill Bill, Bill, go, go, go, because now it's connected. And so we're seeing the rise of that craft and what I think is going to in turn happen is we're all going to have a better experience, we're all going to reap the benefits of having that expertise. You know, there's a spirit sometimes when we talk about automation and devops and, you know, interconnected tool systems that maybe you're taking somebody's job that they were doing before the daily task. No way. All we're doing is saying like, cool, take the repeatable thing that you're doing over and over and over, and let's focus on that craft, lets you know if your security person and you want to get down and deep and understand where vulnerabilities are going to come from and things that people haven't even thought of. Cool, let's take away some of the other things that we know can be caught and solved without you paying attention in some aspects. I think we just need along the whole stack. So it's pretty exciting times. >>Yeah, I did it and we call that different, undifferentiated heavy lifting, you know, just get it out of the way since you brought that up. Let's take automation down that road of experience. What does it mean for the developer? Because this is really an opportunity. Right. So the phrase I've heard is if you do it more than a few times, just automated away. So when is the right time to automate where this automation play into the developer experience? When does it make it more productive? Where's the innovation angle you share your thoughts on when people look through the prism of automation productivity versus innovation? What's the what's the automation view there? >>I mean, you know it is it is a good like, you know, little metric could be done it five times and it's the same thing over and over and over. Your question is now like do you have to be doing that? I mean you should because you're doing it. So I think it's about finding and defining your own boundary for what you need, right? I mean it's hard to get out there and say every workflow like we can go and apply the stamp. We already tried that with agile frameworks for like everybody you're gonna do scrum, we're going to combine, you know what? It doesn't work. What we really need to do is have teams understand their workflows, right, understand and do some diagnosis and saying like we're in the system and I think that's powerful metrics and insights of going like where are we having a slowdown? Where are people spending their time if people are spending their time doing break fix or they're spending their time continuously trying to jam something into a certain pipeline, you have to ask yourself, is this something that we should be spending that time on? What if we had that time freed up? And so I do think you can go and put some good boundaries in there, whatever yours may be. I love I love some of those rule sets but really you know, deadlocks and automation starts with the process, right? We think about it and when I developed software always think about it through that design. Thinking lands of how will this work when I get to it. And so if we're focusing on the design aspect and the user experience, then we start looking at the pieces in between from that code to having people use it and say what do I need to do? And sometimes you know depending on your industry, you may have these other needs that not everybody has. So it's hard to say there's a one size fits all. But there is a good rule like if you've done the same repeatable thing over every every day, uh numerous days like you probably should just go spend the time to automate that. And I think it's the convincing point, right? Like if we go and and a lot of us are are nerds and engineers at heart and I love freaking math. So it's that like okay if we spend two hours building maybe a hub action for a doctor one time instead of somebody happened to repeat this process no matter what it is. Like you're giving that time back in that time is mental capacity, mental capacity that can be applied to something that's more important and hopefully the more important thing is the user experience. Um So yeah, I mean you know we all have those little systems out there. I say use them but take a step back. I think the bigger, the harder part is like yes, you will have to slow down for a minute, which is scary to go and build something repeatable so that you can speed back up. You know, >>it's awesome. Great, great inside love, love the energy a lot to ask you while you're here because this is something I've been thinking about. I'm hearing a lot of developers talking about, understand the workflow you mentioned that's a key thing. I love that. Getting in and understanding the customer experience working backwards, but that brings up the whole. How do you form the teams? How do you think about team formation? Because at cloud scale with cloud native, you can use building blocks, You have automation, you can easily compose and then build intellectual property around things. Use containers, make things easier. So as you start thinking about teams, is it better to have teams focus on, say workflows and then decoupled teams? Is there a strategy for general purpose teams or how do you look at the team formation from the developer perspective to make the experience great, high quality. Is there a state of the art in your opinion, given the compose ability and all the ease of use going on? I mean, what's the ideal way to think this through? What's your thoughts? >>Oh, you know, there's, I'm going to say there's not one team team to rule them all, there's not one team kind of foundation that's gonna be able to be applicable, it's all different, right? Like even within the same company, especially at scale, you may have these different compositions of your team and I think it comes down to like, what problems are you trying to solve within your workflow? What are you trying to accomplish? I think when we, when we step back and we think about our Ci cd pipelines and really code from idea into cloud that I believe in a unified system, because I don't want developers worrying about it and doing one offs, I'm like, you don't need to know that, and that's been an argument that's going on, you know, I'm a huge kubernetes fan and so it's been like, should, should, should the feature developers understand the entrance of kubernetes? I'm gonna say something controversial, I'm gonna say no, I'm gonna say they don't need to know, they need to know how to monitor alert and how to have smart rollbacks and have a system that does it for them. That's why we have Orchestration, that's why we have dr containers, that's why we have world class eight PM and monitoring systems in place because we've done that, we've done that hard work. So I would say no, they don't need to know that, so, but you still need these needs, right? Depending upon where you are in this transformation, right? Maybe you're still like, you know, integrating some of these cloud needed principles and toolsets and so you need some smes I do really love the SRE embedded model, not embedded, like on your, you know, like embedded, like a chip set, but embedded in the team, because that person really should be a mentor and should be a force multiplier. You don't want to fall in the trap and be like oh we have an SRE on the team. They're going to do all the devops stuff. No no no no they're going to go and help you think about your product through a customer lens right there. They're the experts going like whoa maybe we should have an S. L. A. Because this is a tier one feature lets go and make sure we build that automation so that we curate this feature with the highest level availability but then teach the team how to do that. So now you have this practice as a part right? Like you're honing your craft, you have this practice now. Does that mean they need to go learn everything about like the monitoring sweet and tools are used. No, but they should understand how to read the output of that. And so there's not one team size to rule them all. Unfortunately, I personally, I'll tell you what I'm a fan of is like I think that you should have flexibility. Like once again think about the points where you need to have the connective unified system, right? And then you have this opportunity for developers to have some agency and creative freedom because maybe you've been on a team that's been working on, I don't know, let's say your audit service. I think every every software has some component of audit uh, you know, in some ability because you want to know what he was using one well after they've done their tour of duty because most of the cool stuff, they've already fixed and made a feature set. Let them go roll into something else because then you have that connective tissue on the inner points of your system that are always the same, right? We want really repeatability. We want them just to focus on writing the code. And I think because of these advancements we are unlocking opportunity for developers to think broader, right? Like maybe you've been on the platform team and you want to go dip your toes into writing features well, 90 okay, maybe not 90 but also 80% of that, you know, every day repeatable task, like focus on that and get that shit out. But then you have the sme and you're really thinking holistically as a customer obsessed team of what you're building and why. So I love that. No one way. >>Yeah, I love the idea of the platform person just having more flex out because that brings a platform mindset to the other pieces, but also feature acceleration versus product strategy. Thinking through the arc of why you're building in the first place, Right? So and then the embedded SRE great point there, great call out there because everything's cloud scale now, you gotta have pen tests built in automation, >>who's gonna >>design that. So I think it's really interesting how you're putting that together and I think that's very relevant. Um and any um new things that you see happening now with with cloud Native, you mentioned cabernets, I think you know the story that we've been telling is kubernetes got boring and that's good. Right? So, >>meaning its meaning it's working >>and people like it, it's interoperability or frustration. It feels like a unifying connective tissue between under the hood and above at the application layer. So it's nice but the consequence of that is there's more cloud native going on, so that means more services are going to be connected and torn down. You mentioned observe ability and monitoring. That's important too. So as an engineering leader, that's not another department. Right? That's gonna be core to the developers. What's your thoughts on how to integrate observe ability now there's a zillion companies doing it now but is that you know >>there is a zillion. My thoughts are like heck yeah. Like conservative observe ability isn't at the end of the stack. Right, observe ability is apart just like qualities apart. Just like when we think about agile, let me just throw it this way right? Like when dr came right, we had it basically have this maybe this baby os encompassed on servers. So you can have multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple distributed. Right? I think of like let's let's say that like your team is that Docker container man, you want everything in their right? It is a part of the practice. You want your learning, you want your logging, you want it all wrapped up in this nice little bow and you want lots of them all working together harmoniously. The same thing can be said about our teams. We want them to be their own little micro operating system where they have all the resources available for them to go and do the thing that they are intending to do and not have to worry about that subset. But it also gives them that control. Right? So it's building in that layer of abstraction that's needed but also understanding why it's important. So it's a little bit of both. Right? We're not going to curate deep subject matter experts. You know, I'm, you know the Oh yes, I model and every aspect right? Like we're not going to turn a friend and engineer necessarily into a network engineer. But utilizing the tool sets, having a playbook where it is controlled, maintained in a part of your culture. All that's gonna do is allow you to move faster and it's allow you to see what's really running out there in the wild. And I see these trends happening. I think we're continuing to see the rise of cloud native technologies because applications now are really a set of a P. I. S. That go across the world and in and out. And so the way that we develop is slightly different. And so we need to think about, well, how is it orchestrated and deployed? Well, if you have a repeatable pattern once again, if we go back to that and think of our team and I promise nobody asked me to come up with this as like a little darker, a little docker container itself. You know, you're gonna write that image into what makes sense for you and have all the resources available and you're gonna rinse and repeat that over and over and over again. And so I mean, we're just seeing, seeing this continue this continuation of, you know, monitoring devops? S sorry, it's not a problem. It's a culture, right? It's not one person's job or a role. It's a part of how you build great software. It's just a practice. >>You mentioned abstraction layer used to be conventional wisdom that they were good. But there's trade offs whose performance tradeoffs or some overhead. Not anymore. It's good. You can basically build an abstraction layer and say, hey, I don't want to deal with networking anymore. It's gonna make it programmable. >>That's cool. No >>problem. So you start to see these new innovation patterns. Right. So what are you most excited about when you start to see these new kinds of things of being brought on that were limited years ago? Like you start an abstraction layers, you see the role of the SRE you're seeing um the democratization of new developers coming in that are bringing new perspectives. She's seeing all these new kinds of ways that's re factoring how people write code. But what are you seeing is the most exciting >>for me? Honestly, it's like the opportunity for anybody to really be a builder maker developer, right? You don't have to have a traditional CS degree if you do that's awesome, Like come and teach us awesome stuff that we probably should know. That's foundational. I don't have a CS degree. You know, we're moving on from these opportunities where it's self taught to where you actually 100% can go and learn and build and create. We're seeing the rise in these communities. I feel like these toolsets are really just lowering the barrier of entry for those people that don't have advantage to go to like a four year school and get a degree for people that are just like have a great idea what excites me is that next developer, You know, we talk about the 100 million developer sitting somewhere in the world, just going, I have a great idea and I'm gonna change the world and I don't know how to get started, but they do, they have it at their hands now. You know, if you can go onto a website, get a little bit dangerous with these tool sets, you can go and get your idea to the masses and what we're going to end up doing is like you said, democratizing tech, it's going to bring in new ways to think it's going to change how we interact with systems. We get we get our blinders on sometimes, especially, you know, I live in Portland on the West Coast, the US, we know that the world is vast, majorly huge, dynamic, awesome place. The things that work for me may not work for somebody on the other side of the world. The things that I do may not be relevant. But we're going to find that human connection. We're going to continue to say, well, wait a minute. How can we optimize for any human anywhere? How can we help take all these differences but doing them in a repeatable pattern. So like for me that's exciting is these toolsets that we've been working on for years, are now going to put put in people's hands that never thought they could. And that is exciting. And like to see to see the rise of just creativity is what really makes humans special because we build and make >>and the fact that it's more inclusive now becoming more inclusive on all aspects of inclusive whether it's individuals and coders types of code. So uh integration is the new normal right integrating in uh data control planes, all that goodness coming in because of the ease of use of developer experience. Super awesome. Um dana you're awesome. Great to have you on the cube and sharing your energy and insight. Great call outs on many topics. A lot of gems being dropped. Their thanks for coming on the cube. >>Well thanks for having me. It's been awesome and doctor comes been great. I can't wait to see the rest of the show. >>Dr khan 2021 Virtual real life coming back maybe in physical next year or hybrid for sure. Just the cube coverage of Dr khan 2021. I'm sean for your host. Thanks for watching