(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to Supercloud 2, live here in Palo Alto, our studio, where we're doing a live stage performance and virtually syndicating out around the world. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante, my co-host with the The Cube here. We've got Kit Colbert, the CTO of VM. We're doing a keynote on Cloud Chaos, the evolution of SuperCloud Architecture Kit. Great to see you, thanks for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having me back. It's great to be here for Supercloud 2. >> And so we're going to dig into it. We're going to do a Q&A. We're going to let you present. You got some slides. I really want to get this out there, it's really compelling story. Do the presentation and then we'll come back and discuss. Take it away. >> Yeah, well thank you. So, we had a great time at the original Supercloud event, since then, been talking to a lot of customers, and started to better formulate some of the thinking that we talked about last time So, let's jump into it. Just a few quick slides to sort of set the tone here. So, if we go to the the next slide, what that shows is the journey that we see customers on today, going from what we call Cloud First into this phase that many customers are stuck in, called Cloud Chaos, and where they want to get to, and this is the term customers actually use, we didn't make this up, we heard it from customers. This notion of Cloud Smart, right? How do they use cloud more effectively, more intelligently? Now, if you walk through this journey, customers start with Cloud First. They usually select a single cloud that they're going to standardize on, and when they do that, they have to build out a whole bunch of functionality around that cloud. Things you can see there on the screen, disaster recovery, security, how do they monitor it or govern it? Like, these are things that are non-negotiable, you've got to figure it out, and typically what they do is, they leverage solutions that are specific for that cloud, and that's fine when you have just one cloud. But if we build out here, what we see is that most customers are using more than just one, they're actually using multiple, not necessarily 10 or however many on the screen, but this is just as an example. And so what happens is, they have to essentially duplicate or replicate that stack they've built for each different cloud, and they do so in a kind of a siloed manner. This results in the Cloud Chaos term that that we talked about before. And this is where most businesses out there are, they're using two, maybe three public clouds. They've got some stuff on-prem and they've also got some stuff out at the edge. This is apps, data, et cetera. So, this is the situation, this is sort of that Cloud Chaos. So, the question is, how do we move from this phase to Cloud Smart? And this is where the architecture comes in. This is why architecture, I think, is so important. It's really about moving away from these single cloud services that just solve a problem for one cloud, to something we call a Cross-Cloud service. Something that can support a set of functionality across all clouds, and that means not just public clouds, but also private clouds, edge, et cetera, and when you evolve that across the board, what you get is this sort of Supercloud. This notion that we're talking about here, where you combine these cross-cloud services in many different categories. You can see some examples there on the screen. This is not meant to be a complete set of things, but just examples of what can be done. So, this is sort of the transition and transformation that we're talking about here, and I think the architecture piece comes in both for the individual cloud services as well as that Supercloud concept of how all those services come together. >> Great presentation., thanks for sharing. If you could pop back to that slide, on the Cloud Chaos one. I just want to get your thoughts on something there. This is like the layout of the stack. So, this slide here that I'm showing on the screen, that you presented, okay, take us through that complexity. This is the one where I wanted though, that looks like a spaghetti code mix. >> Yes. >> So, do you turn this into a Supercloud stack, right? Is that? >> well, I think it's, it's an evolving state that like, let's take one of these examples, like security. So, instead of implementing security individually in different ways, using different technologies, different tooling for each cloud, what you would do is say, "Hey, I want a single security solution that works across all clouds", right? A concrete example of this would be secure software supply chain. This is probably one of the top ones that I hear when I talk to customers. How do I know that the software I'm building is truly what I expect it to be, and not something that some hacker has gotten into, and polluted with malicious code? And what they do is that, typically today, their teams have gone off and created individual secure software supply chain solutions for each cloud. So, now they could say, "Hey, I can take a single implementation and just have different endpoints." It could go to Google, or AWS, or on-prem, or wherever have you, right? So, that's the sort of architectural evolution that we're talking about. >> You know, one of the things we hear, Dave, you've been on theCUBE all the time, and we, when we talk privately with customers who are asking us like, what's, what's going on? They have the same complaint, "I don't want to build a team, a dev team, for that stack." So, if you go back to that slide again, you'll see that, that illustrates the tech stack for the clouds and the clouds at the bottom. So, the number one complaint we hear, and I want to get your reaction to that, "I don't want to have a team to have to work on that. So, I'm going to pick one and then have a hedge secondary one, as a backup." Here, that's one, that's four, five, eight, ten, ten environments. >> Yeah, I got a lot. >> That's going to be the reality, so, what's the technical answer to that? >> Yeah, well first of all, let me just say, this picture is again not totally representative of reality oftentimes, because while that picture shows a solution for every cloud, oftentimes that's not the case. Oftentimes it's a line of business going off, starting to use a new cloud. They might solve one or two things, but usually not security, usually not some of these other things, right? So, I think from a technical standpoint, where you want to get to is, yes, that sort of common service, with a common operational team behind it, that is trained on that, that can work across clouds. And that's really I think the important evolution here, is that you don't need to replicate these operational teams, one for each cloud. You can actually have them more focused across all those clouds. >> Yeah, in fact, we were commenting on the opening today. Dave and I were talking about the benefits of the cloud. It's heterogeneous, which is a good thing, but it's complex. There's skill gaps and skill required, but at the end of the day, self-service of the cloud, and the elastic nature of it makes it the benefit. So, if you try to create too many common services, you lose the value of the cloud. So, what's the trade off, in your mind right now as customers start to look at okay, identity, maybe I'll have one single sign on, that's an obvious one. Other ones? What are the areas people are looking at from a combination, common set of services? Where do they start? What's the choices? What are some of the trade offs? 'Cause you can't do it everything. >> No, it's a great question. So, that's actually a really good point and as I answer your question, before I answer your question, the important point about that, as you saw here, you know, across cloud services or these set of Cross-Cloud services, the things that comprise the Supercloud, at least in my view, the point is not necessarily to completely abstract the underlying cloud. The point is to give a business optionality and choice, in terms of what it wants to abstract, and I think that gets to your question, is how much do you actually want to abstract from the underlying cloud? Now, what I find, is that typically speaking, cloud choice is driven at least from a developer or app team perspective, by the best of breed services. What higher level application type services do you need? A database or AI, you know, ML systems, for your application, and that's going to drive your choice of the cloud. So oftentimes, businesses I talk to, want to allow those services to shine through, but for other things that are not necessarily highly differentiated and yet are absolutely critical to creating a successful application, those are things that you want to standardize. Again, like things like security, the supply chain piece, cost management, like these things you need to, and you know, things like cogs become really, really important when you start operating at scale. So, those are the things in it that I see people wanting to focus on. >> So, there's a majority model. >> Yes. >> All right, and we heard of earlier from Walmart, who's fairly, you know, advanced, but at the same time their supercloud is pretty immature. So, what are you seeing in terms of supercloud momentum, crosscloud momentum? What's the starting point for customers? >> Yeah, so it's interesting, right, on that that three-tiered journey that I talked about, this Cloud Smart notion is, that is adoption of what you might call a supercloud or architecture, and most folks aren't there yet. Even the really advanced ones, even the really large ones, and I think it's because of the fact that, we as an industry are still figuring this out. We as an industry did not realize this sort of Cloud Chaos state could happen, right? We didn't, I think most folks thought they could standardize on one cloud and that'd be it, but as time has shown, that's simply not the case. As much as one might try to do that, that's not where you end up. So, I think there's two, there's two things here. Number one, for folks that are early in to the cloud, and are in this Cloud Chaos phase, we see the path out through standardization of these cross-cloud services through adoption of this sort of supercloud architecture, but the other thing I think is particularly exciting, 'cause I talked to a number of of businesses who are not yet in the Cloud Chaos phase. They're earlier on in the cloud journey, and I think the opportunity there is that they don't have to go through Cloud Chaos. They can actually skip that whole phase if they adopt this supercloud architecture from the beginning, and I think being thoughtful around that is really the key here. >> It's interesting, 'cause we're going to hear from Ionis Pharmaceuticals later, and they, yes there are multiple clouds, but the multiple clouds are largely separate, and so it's a business unit using that. So, they're not in Cloud Chaos, but they're not tapping the advantages that you could get for best of breed across those business units. So, to your point, they have an opportunity to actually build that architecture or take advantage of those cross-cloud services, prior to reaching cloud chaos. >> Well, I, actually, you know, I'd love to hear from them if, 'cause you say they're not in Cloud Chaos, but are they, I mean oftentimes I find that each BU, each line of business may feel like they're fine, in of themselves. >> Yes, exactly right, yes. >> But when you look at it from an overall company perspective, they're like, okay, things are pretty chaotic here. We don't have standardization, I don't, you know, like, again, security compliance, these things, especially in many regulated industries, become huge problems when you're trying to run applications across multiple clouds, but you don't have any of those company-wide standardizations. >> Well, this is a point. So, they have a big deal with AstraZeneca, who's got this huge ecosystem, they want to start sharing data across those ecosystem, and that's when they will, you know, that Cloud Chaos will, you know, come, come to fore, you would think. I want to get your take on something that Bob Muglia said earlier, which is, he kind of said, "Hey Dave, you guys got to tighten up your definition a little bit." So, he said a supercloud is a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers. So, you know, thank you, that was nice and simple. However others in the community, we're going to hear from Dr. Nelu Mihai later, says, no, no, wait a minute, it's got to be an architecture, not a platform. Where do you land on this architecture v. platform thing? >> I look at it as, I dunno if it's, you call it maturity or just kind of a time horizon thing, but for me when I hear the word platform, I typically think of a single vendor. A single vendor provides this platform. That's kind of the beauty of a platform, is that there is a simplicity usually consistency to it. >> They did the architecture. (laughing) >> Yeah, exactly but I mean, well, there's obviously architecture behind it, has to be, but you as a customer don't necessarily need to deal with that. Now, I think one of the opportunities with Supercloud is that it's not going to be, or there is no single vendor that can solve all these problems. It's got to be the industry coming together as a community, inter-operating, working together, and so, that's why, for me, I think about it as an architecture, that there's got to be these sort of, well-defined categories of functionality. There's got to be well-defined interfaces between those categories of functionality to enable modularity, to enable businesses to be able to pick and choose the right sorts of services, and then weave those together into an overall supercloud. >> Okay, so you're not pitching, necessarily the platform, you're saying, hey, we have an architecture that's open. I go back to something that Vittorio said on August 9th, with the first Supercloud, because as well, remember we talked about abstracting, but at the same time giving developers access to those primitives. So he said, and this, I think your answer sort of confirms this. "I want to have my cake eat it too and not gain weight." >> (laughing) Right. Well and I think that's where the platform aspect can eventually come, after we've gotten aligned architecture, you're going to start to naturally see some vendors step up to take on some of the remaining complexity there. So, I do see platforms eventually emerging here, but I think where we have to start as an industry is around aligning, okay, what does this definition mean? What does that architecture look like? How do we enable interoperability? And then we can take the next step. >> Because it depends too, 'cause I would say Snowflake has a platform, and they've just defined the architecture, but we're not talking about infrastructure here, obviously, we're talking about something else. >> Well, I think that the Snowflake talks about, what he talks about, security and data, you're going to start to see the early movement around areas that are very spanning oriented, and I think that's the beginning of the trend and I think there's going to be a lot more, I think on the infrastructure side. And to your point about the platform architecture, that's actually a really good thought exercise because it actually makes you think about what you're designing in the first place, and that's why I want to get your reaction. >> Quote from- >> Well I just have to interrupt since, later on, you're going to hear from near Nir Zuk of Palo Alto Network. He says architecture and security historically, they don't go hand in hand, 'cause it's a big mess. >> It depends if you're whacking the mole or you actually proactively building something. Well Kit, I want to get your reaction from a quote from someone in our community who said about Supercloud, you know, "The Supercloud's great, there are issues around computer science rigors, and customer requirements." So, there's some issues around the science itself as well as not just listen to the customer, 'cause if that's the case, we'd have a better database, a better Oracle, right, so, but there's other, this tech involved, new tech. We need an open architecture with universal data modeling interconnecting among them, connectivity is a part of security, and then, once we get through that gate, figuring out the technical, the data, and the customer requirements, they say "Supercloud should be a loosely coupled platform with open architecture, plug and play, specialized services, ready for optimization, automation that can stand the test of time." What's your reaction to that sentiment? You like it, is that, does that sound good? >> Yeah, no, broadly aligns with my thinking, I think, and what I see from talking with customers as well. I mean, I like the, again, the, you know, listening to customer needs, prioritizing those things, focusing on some of the connective tissue networking, and data and some of these aspects talking about the open architecture, the interoperability, those are all things I think are absolutely critical. And then, yeah, like I think at the end. >> On the computer science side, do you see some science and engineering things that need to be engineered differently? We heard databases are radically going to change and that are inadequate for the new architecture. What are some of the things like that, from a science standpoint? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of the more academic research type things. >> More tech, or more better tech or is it? >> Yeah, look, absolutely. I mean I think that there's a bunch around, certainly around the data piece, around, you know, there's issues of data gravity, data mobility. How do you want to do that in a way that's performant? There's definitely issues around security as well. Like how do you enable like trust in these environments, there's got to be some sort of hardware rooted trusts, and you know, a whole bunch of various types of aspects there. >> So, a lot of work still be done. >> Yes, I think so. And that's why I look at this as, this is not a one year thing, or you know, it's going to be multi-years, and I think again, it's about all of us in the industry working together to come to an aligned picture of what that looks like. >> So, as the world's moved from private cloud to public cloud and now Cross-cloud services, supercloud, metacloud, whatever you want to call it, how have you sort of changed the way engineering's organized, developers sort of approached the problem? Has it changed and how? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it's funny, we at VMware, going through the same challenges as our customers and you know, any business, right? We use multiple clouds, we got a big, of course, on-prem footprint. You know, what we're doing is similar to what I see in many other customers, which, you see the evolution of a platform team, and so the platform team is really in charge of trying to develop a lot of these underlying services to allow our lines of business, our product teams, to be able to move as quickly as possible, to focus on the building, while we help with a lot of the operational overheads, right? We maintain security, compliance, all these other things. We also deal with, yeah, just making the developer's life as simple as possible. So, they do need to know some stuff about, you know, each public cloud they're using, those public cloud services, but at the same, time we can abstract a lot of the details they don't need to be in. So, I think this sort of delineation or separation, I should say, between the underlying platform team and the product teams is a very, very common pattern. >> You know, I noticed the four layers you talked about were observability, infrastructure, security and developers, on that slide, the last slide you had at the top, that was kind of the abstraction key areas that you guys at VMware are working? >> Those were just some groupings that we've come up with, but we like to debate them. >> I noticed data's in every one of them. >> Yeah, yep, data is key. >> It's not like, so, back to the data questions that security is called out as a pillar. Observability is just kind of watching everything, but it's all pretty much data driven. Of the four layers that you see, I take that as areas that you can. >> Standardize. >> Consistently rely on to have standard services. >> Yes. >> Which one do you start with? What's the, is there order of operations? >> Well, that's, I mean. >> 'Cause I think infrastructure's number one, but you had observability, you need to know what's going on. >> Yeah, well it really, it's highly dependent. Again, it depends on the business that we talk to and what, I mean, it really goes back to, what are your business priorities, right? And we have some customers who may want to get out of a data center, they want to evacuate the data center, and so what they want is then, consistent infrastructure, so they can just move those applications up to the cloud. They don't want to have to refactor them and we'll do it later, but there's an immediate and sort of urgent problem that they have. Other customers I talk to, you know, security becomes top of mind, or maybe compliance, because they're in a regulated industry. So, those are the sort of services they want to prioritize. So, I would say there is no single right answer, no one size fits all. The point about this architecture is really around the optionality of it, as it allows you as a business to decide what's most important and where you want to prioritize. >> How about the deployment models kit? Do, does a customer have that flexibility from a deployment model standpoint or do I have to, you know, approach it a specific way? Can you address that? >> Yeah, I mean deployment models, you're talking about how they how they consume? >> So, for instance, yeah, running a control plane in the cloud. >> Got it, got it. >> And communicating elsewhere or having a single global instance or instantiating that instance, and? >> So, that's a good point actually, and you know, the white paper that we released back in August, around this sort of concept, the Cross-cloud service. This is some of the stuff we need to figure out as an industry. So, you know when we talk about a Cross-cloud service, we can mean actually any of the things you just talked about. It could be a single instance that runs, let's say in one public cloud, but it supports all of 'em. Or it could be one that's multi-instance and that runs in each of the clouds, and that customers can take dependencies on whichever one, depending on what their use cases are or the, even going further than that, there's a type of Cross-cloud service that could actually be instantiated even in an air gapped or offline environment, and we have many, many businesses, especially heavily regulated ones that have that requirement, so I think, you know. >> Global don't forget global, regions, locales. >> Yeah, there's all sorts of performance latency issues that can be concerned about. So, most services today are the former, there are single sort of instance or set of instances within a single cloud that support multiple clouds, but I think what we're doing and where we're going with, you know, things like what we see with Kubernetes and service meshes and all these things, will better enable folks to hit these different types of cross-cloud service architectures. So, today, you as a customer probably wouldn't have too much choice, but where we're going, you'll see a lot more choice in the future. >> If you had to summarize for folks watching the importance of Supercloud movement, multi-cloud, cross-cloud services, as an industry in flexible, 'cause I'm always riffing on the whole old school network protocol stacks that got disrupted by TCP/IP, that's a little bit dated, we got people on the chat that are like, you know, 20 years old that weren't even born then. So, but this is a, one of those inflection points that's once in a generation inflection point, I'm sure you agree. What scoped the order of magnitude of the change and the opportunity around the marketplace, the business models, the technology, and ultimately benefits the society. >> Yeah. Wow. Getting bigger. >> You have 10 seconds, go. >> I know. Yeah. (laughing) No, look, so I think it is what we're seeing is really the next phase of what you might call cloud, right? This notion of delivering services, the way they've been packaged together, traditionally by the hyperscalers is now being challenged. and what we're seeing is really opening that up to new levels of innovation, and I think that will be huge for businesses because it'll help meet them where they are. Instead of needing to contort the businesses to, you know, make it work with the technology, the technology will support the business and where it's going. Give people more optionality, more flexibility in order to get there, and I think in the end, for us as individuals, it will just make for better experiences, right? You can get better performance, better interactivity, given that devices are so much of what we do, and so much of what we interact with all the time. This sort of flexibility and optionality will fundamentally better for us as individuals in our experiences. >> And we're seeing that with ChatGPT, everyone's talking about, just early days. There'll be more and more of things like that, that are next gen, like obviously like, wow, that's a fall out of your chair moment. >> It'll be the next wave of innovation that's unleashed. >> All right, Kit Colbert, thanks for coming on and sharing and exploring the Supercloud architecture, Cloud Chaos, the Cloud Smart, there's a transition progression happening and it's happening fast. This is the supercloud wave. If you're not on this wave, you'll be driftwood. That's a Pat Gelsinger quote on theCUBE. This is theCUBE Be right back with more Supercloud coverage, here in Palo Alto after this break. (upbeat music) (upbeat music continues)

(upbeat music) >> Good afternoon. theCUBE is live at VMware Explorer. Lisa Martin here in San Francisco with Dave Nicholson. This is our second day of coverage talking all things VMware and it's ecosystem. We're excited to welcome from DXC Technology, James Bion, Hybrid Cloud and Multi Cloud Offering manager to have a conversation next. Welcome to the program. >> Thank you very much. >> Welcome. >> Talk to us a little bit about before we get into the VMware partnership, what's new at DXC? What's going on? >> So DXC is really evolving and revitalizing into more of a cloud orientated company. So we're already driving change in our customers at the moment. We take them on that cloud journey, but we're taking them in the right way, in a structured mannered way. So we are really excited about it, we're kicking off our Cloud First type, Cloud Right sort of story and helping customers on that journey. >> Yesterday in the keynote, VMware was talking about customers are on this Cloud chaos phase, they want to get to Cloud Smart. You're saying they want to get to Cloud Right. Talk to us about what DXC Cloud Right is, what does it mean? What does it enable businesses to achieve? >> That's a very good question. So DXC has come up with this concept of Cloud Right, we looked at it from a services and outcome. So what do customers want to achieve? And how do we get it successfully? This is not a technology conversation, this is about putting the right workloads at the right place, at the right time, at the right cost to get the right value for your business. It's not about just doing it for the sake of doing it, okay. There's a lot of changes it's not technology only you've got to change how people operate. You've got to work through the organizational change. You need to ensure that you have the right security in place to maintain it. And it's about value, really about value proposition. So we don't just focus on cost, we focus on operations of it, we focus on security of it. We focus on ensuring the value proposition of it and putting not just for one Cloud, it's the right place. Big focus on Hybrid and Multi Cloud solutions in particular, we're very excited about what's happening with VMware Cloud on maybe AWS or et cetera because we see there a real dynamic change for our customers where they can transition across to the right Cloud services, at the right time, at the right place, but minimal disruption to the actual operation of their business. Very easy to move a workload into that place using the same skilled resources, the same tools, the same environment that you have had for many years, the same SLAs. Customers don't want a variance in their SLAs, they just want an outcome at a right price and the right time. >> Right, what are some of the things going on with the VMware partnership and anything you know, here we are at this the event called the theme is "The Center of the Multi Cloud Universe", which I keep saying sounds like a Marvel movie, I think there needs to be some superheroes here. But how is DXC working with VMware to help customers that are in Multi Cloud by default, not by design? >> That's a very good one. So DXC works jointly with VMware for more than a thousand clients out there. Wide diversity of different clients. We go to market together, we work collaboratively to put roadmaps in place for our clients, it's a unified team. On top of that, we have an extremely good VMware practice, joint working VMware team working directly with DXC dedicated resources and we deliver real value for clients. For example, we have a customer experience zone, we have a customer innovation zone so we can run proof of concepts on all the different VMware technologies for customers. If they want to try something different, try and push the boundaries a little bit with the VMware products, we can do that for them. But at the end of the day we deliver outcome based services. We are not there to deliver a piece of software, but a technology which show the customer the value of the service that they've been receiving within that. So we bring the VMware fantastic technologies in and then we bring the DXC managed services which we do so well and we look after our customers and do the right thing for our customers. >> So what does the go-to market strategy look like from a DXC perspective? We say that there are a finite number of strategic seats at the customer table. DXC has longstanding deep relationships with customers, so does VMware and probably over a shorter period of time, the Hyper scale Cloud Providers. How are you approaching these relationships with customers? Is it you bringing in your friends from the cloud? Is it the cloud bringing in their friend DXC? What does it look like? >> So we have relationships with all of them, but were agnostic. So we are the people who bring it all together into that unified platform and services that the customers expect. VMware will bring us certainly to the table and we'll bring VMware to the table. Equally, we work very collaboratively with all the cloud providers and we work in deals together. They bring us deals, we bring them deals. So it works extremely well from that perspective, but of course it's a multi-cloud world these days. We don't just deal with one cloud provider, we'll normally have all of the different services to find the right place for our customers. >> Now, one thing that that's been mentioned from DXC is this idea that Cloud First which has been sort of a mantra that scores you points if you're a CIO lately, maybe that's not the best way to wake up in the morning. Why not saying, Cloud First? >> So we have a lot of clients who who've tried that Cloud First journey and they've aggressively taken on migration of workloads. And now that they've settled in a few of those they're discovering maybe the ROI isn't quite what they expected it was going to be. That transformation takes a long time, a very long time. We've seen some of the numbers around averaging a hundred apps can take up to seven years to transition and transform, that's a long time. It makes you almost less agile by doing the transformation quite ironically. So DXC's Cloud Right program really helps you to ensure that you assess those workloads correctly, you target the ones that are going to give you the best business value, possibly the best return on investment using our Cloud and advisory practice to do that. And then obviously off the back of that we've got our migration teams and our run services and our application modernization factories and our application platforms for that. So DXC Cloud Right can certainly help our customers on that journey and get that sort of Hybrid Multi Cloud solution that suits their particular outcomes, not just one Cloud provider. >> So Cloud Right isn't just Cloud migration? >> No. >> People sometimes confuse digital transformation with Cloud migration. >> Correct. >> So to be clear Cloud Right and DXC has the ability to work with customers on not just, oh, here, this is how we box it up and ship it out, but what makes sense to box up and ship out. >> Correct, and it's all about that whole end to end life cycle. Remember, this is not just a technology conversation, this is an end to end business conversation. It's the outcomes are important, not the technology. That's why you have good partners like DXC who will help you on that technology journey. >> Let's talk about in the dynamics of the market the last couple of years, we saw so many customers in every industry race to the Cloud, race to digitally transform. You bring up a good point of people interchangeably talking about digital transformation, Cloud migration, but we saw the massive adoption of SaaS technologies. What are you seeing? Are you seeing customers in that sort of Cloud chaos as VMware calls it? That you're coming in with the Cloud Right approach saying, let's actually figure out, you may have done this because of the pandemic maybe it was accelerated, you needed to facilitate collaboration or whatnot, but actually this is the right approach. Are you seeing a lot of customers in that situation? >> We are certainly seeing some customers going into that chaos world. Some of them are still in the early stages of their journey and are taking a more cautious step towards in particular, the companies that would die on systems to be up available all the time. Others have gone too far, the other are in extreme are in the chaos world. And our Cloud Right program will certainly help them to pull their chaos back in, identify what workloads are potentially running in the wrong place, get the framework in place for ensuring that security and governance is in place. Ensuring that we don't have a cost spend blowout in particular, make sure that security is key to everything that we do and operations is key to everything we do. We have our own intelligent Platform X, it's called, our service management platform which is really the engine that sits behind our delivery mechanism. And that's got a whole lot of AI analytics engines in there to identify things and proactively identify workload placements, workload repairs, scripting, and hyper automation behind that too, to keep available here and there. And that's really some of our Cloud Right story, it's not just sorting out the mess, it's sorting out and then running it for you in the right way. >> So what does a typical, a customer engagement look like for a customer in that situation? >> So we would obviously engage our client right advisory team and they would come in and sit down with your application owners, sit down with the business units, identify what success needs to look like. They do all the discovery, they'll run it through our engines to identify what workloads are in the right place, should go to the right place. Just 'cause you can do something doesn't mean you should do something and that's an important thing. So we will come back with that and say, this is where I think your cloud roadmap journey should be. And obviously that takes an intuitive process, but we then can pick off the key topics early at the right time and that low hanging fruit that's really going to drive that value for the customer. >> And where are your customer conversations these days? I mean from a Cloud perspective, digital transformation, we're seeing everything escalate up the C-suite? Are you engaging the executives in this conversation so that they really want to facilitate, let's do things the right way that's the most efficient that allows us as a business to do what we're best at? >> So where we've seen programs fail is where we don't have executive leadership and brought in from day one. So if you don't have that executive and business driver and business leadership, then you're definitely not going to be successful. So to answer your question, yes, of course we are, but we also working directly with the IT departments as well. >> So you just brought up an insight executive alignment, critically important. Based on what you've experienced in the real world, contrast that with the sort of message to the world that we hear constantly about Cloud and IT, what would be the most shocking thing that you can share with us that people might not be aware of? It's like what shocks you the most about the disconnect between what everybody talks about and the reality on the ground? Don't name any names of anyone, but give us an example of the like, this is what's really going on. >> So, we certainly are seeing that big sort of move into Cloud quickly, okay. And then the big bill shock comes and just moving a workload across doesn't mean you're in Cloud, it's a transition and transformation to the SaaS and power services, it's where you get your true value out of cloud. So the concept that just 'cause it's in Cloud it's cheap is not always the case. Doing it right in Cloud is definitely going to have some cost value, but it's going to bring other additional values to their business. It's going to give them agility, it's going to give them resilience. So if you look at all three of those platforms cost, agility, and resilience and live across all three of those, then you're definitely going to get the best outcomes. And we've certainly seen some of those where they haven't taken all of those into consideration, quite often it's cost is what drives it, not the other two. And if you can't keep operations up working efficiently then you are in a lot of trouble. >> So Cloud wrong comes with sticker shock. >> It certainly does. >> What's on the horizon for DXC? >> We're certainly seeing a big drive towards apps modernization and certainly help our customers on that journey. DXC is definitely a Cloud company, may that be on Hybrid Cloud, Private Cloud, Public Cloud, DXC is certainly leading that edge and pushing it forward. >> Excellent, James, thank you so much for joining us on the program today talking about what Cloud Right is, the right approach, how you're helping customers really get to that right approach with the people, the processes, and the technology. We appreciate your time. >> Thank you very much. >> For our guest and Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from VMware Explorer, 2022. Our next guest joins us momentarily so don't change the channel. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Las Vegas Lisa Martin live here with David Nicholson. We're at AWS reinvent 2021, this an outstanding event. There's a lot of people here, tens of thousands. And this is probably one of the most important and largest hybrid tech events that we're doing this year with AWS and its massive ecosystem of partners. We're going to be covering this two live sets, two remote studios, over 100 guests on the CUBE at this re-invent and David and I are pleased to welcome Giorgio Vanzini next the vice president and global head of partners and alliances at DXC, Georgia Welcome to the program. >> Thank you for having me. >> Talk to us about what's going on at DXC, what are you in AWS doing together with what's the scoop? >> Yes Well, some exciting things are happening between AWS and DXC, which is we're really focusing on our customers that we have especially in the banking and capital markets, but also automotive. And then also we were a launch partner today with the AWS mainframe modernization right, and so we're focusing on mainframes as well. So exciting spaces for us to go collaborate and work with AWS, for our customers. >> Talk to me about some of the things you know the last 22 months have been quite challenging, quite dynamic and we've seen such a massive acceleration to the cloud. What have you seen from your perspective? Are you seeing customers in every industry that have really figured we've got to do this now because if we don't, we're going to be out of business? >> Yes, you're absolutely correct. We've seen a dramatic acceleration of people wanting or customers wanting to move to the cloud public and private, and an acceleration of assistance that they were requesting from a global systems integrator. So what we've seen is you know, part of our clouds ride strategy that we have, really understanding what does the customer need from a strategy perspective, from a business value perspective and the technology perspective, and AWS has been a great partner with us to actually accommodate all of these kinds of things and the announcements that you had today, you know, just substantiate kind of that fact as well. >> Can you double click on the Cloud Right approach, talk to us about what that is, why it's important and what are some of the outcomes that it's helping customers to generate? >> Absolutely love to Cloud Right is really DXC's strategy to take the customers on the journey from the mainframe to the cloud, and to customize this because every customer is different. They have different requirements, different environments, different business strategies. So therefore the Cloud Right approach is really customizing it for the customer. What is the right business strategy? What is the right technology strategy? And then migrating them over into the cloud as well. Keeping in mind that again, customers are specific, industries are specific. You know, data requirements are different analytics are different, you know, government requirements are different. So you need to those in mind when you transition customers over into the cloud space. >> Right, from a data residency, data sovereignty and all of the different rules and regulations that are popping up that are kind of similar to GDPR for example, that's a big challenge, but one of the things too that's happening Giorgio is that every company to be competitive these days has to become a data company, right? There's no choice, you've got to be data-driven, you've got to have a data strategy at the core of the business, otherwise there's a competitor in the rear view mirror, who's ready to take your place. >> That is absolutely correct, and so that's part of our Cloud Right strategy is understanding what are the business requirements from the customer? Understanding their competitive edge and migrating them over. Because in many instances, to your point, they have huge reams of data, petabytes of information of data, but really making sense of it, so running the analytics on it and having the business insights. So helping the customers understand that, but then also understanding of like, what are the key business requirements that they have? Which applications to migrate and which not to migrate? >> So I'm curious, you mentioned that you're a launch partner for mainframe modernization. That's sort of one slice of and very important slice of some organization's business and migration strategy to cloud. I'm curious what the DXC blend is between standardized offerings and bespoke services and how you manage that? Do you have a thought about that? Wouldn't it be great to have small, medium and large and have people click on it? >> Yes here's a T-shirt for you, which size are you? Now I'm actually glad you asked me that question because that's exactly going to the core of the Cloud Right strategy, and the Cloud Right really means that it's like, which T-shirt size is correct for you? Right. This is the question that we just addressed which is it has to be bespoke because one size does not fit all. And so understanding the customer requirements of do we need to move the data to the cloud? Or do we move to need a subset to the cloud? Do we need to move part of the business applications and which ones and in which order? Right? And so that's why I think we bring something to the table in the AWS mainframe modernization, which is unique because we have an end to end kind of approach from a planning to implementation, to execution and running as well. So I think DEX is uniquely positioned with our Cloud Right strategy. >> One of the things AWS Giorgio talks about is not being custom but being purpose-built. Talk to me about kind of compare contrast that with bespoke solutions, industry specific, obviously customers have specificities. Do you see a difference there between purpose-built under bespoke or are they aligned from your perspective? >> Yes, I do agree that a to technology layers are definitely common layers, horizontal layers, right Where I think you have bespoken limitations on the business strategy and the business rules. And so you have to understand what business is the customer really in and how to implement the business rules into the technology stack as well, and bringing it all together. So while the technology I think goes horizontal to your point right, you know, compute and storage is the same. Wherever you go the bits are the same, however how they're utilized and how you use them for your customers and your interaction is completely different from customer to customer and industry to industry, as you guys know as well. >> You know, it can be, it can be really disheartening working in this space when you think of 475 different kinds of instances and how important it is to get that right for a customer and how much they don't care. Ultimately they don't want to hear about it, they don't want to know, but they want you to get it right, so that it doesn't matter. So it's this irony of all of the work that people have to do like at DXC to make those details not matter. Any thoughts on that? Do you, are you a dejected because of that at all? >> Well, that is part of the value that we bring, right? >> David: Sure. >> To your point, absolutely the customer doesn't care in quotes, right? Just make it work for us and run it smoothly. On the other hand, we're on the hook to make sure that all the different partners that we have, that we integrate including AWS, right. Run smoothly and coherent and are up, you know, 99.999% of the time obviously right. And so the customers do care about our you know, interaction with them as well while AWS is always there. >> One of the things that we talked about a little bit ago is every industry had to pivot right. Dramatically the last 22 months or so. And we've seen every industry cloud is no longer a nice to have We've got to be able to get there, but you mentioned a focus in banking, and I think automotive, I'd love to get your perspectives on what some of the things are the opportunities that DXC sees in those particular industries, as opportunities to modernize. >> Yes, we latched on to banking and automotive because those are ripe for transition and the customers are willing to take the steps there as well. It doesn't mean that other industries are not relevant like, you know, consumer or retail or you know, technology and, and manufacturing. However, especially in automotive I think we have a unique positioning where we have the majority of the OAMs car manufacturers worldwide as customers, and when you think about AWS, you think about the utilization of the information that comes back from telematics information and customization, right. Petabytes of information that comes back from every device, which is a car and what kind of service you can provide there. So it's an industry you know, we talked about Tesla early on as well, right It's an industry that ripe for software and software updates. very similar you see a lot of things happening in the banking capital market space, where they're moving you know their customer base into new spaces as well. Just think about all the NFTs, those are happening, all the FinTech that's happening, right. So the, the banking capital markets companies have to, you know, have an evolution going on right, and assisting them in this evolution is as part of our strategy. >> So you're responsible for global partnerships and alliances DXC would be considered a large global systems integrator. The world is obviously moving in the direction of cloud. We've got the three big players AWS, and the other two I can't think of their names while I'm sitting here in Vegas right now, how do you balance what you do with those, with a variety of providers, for customers, and are you going to market primarily as DXC with the DXC relationship with the customer? Or in support of those cloud vendors that have essentially technology that if left unimplemented is essentially worthless, right I mean you, you bridge the divide between the technology and the true value of the technology, but are you the primary seat holder at the customer table, or is AWS the primary seat holder? Or is it a little of both? Long-winded question I apologize but I think you understand what I'm saying. It's an interesting world that we live in now. >> It definitely is, and if I wouldn't know you better I would say it's a trick question, but in all seriousness, we really are customer driven just like AWS as well right so, we really are trying to do the right thing for the customer. Hence our Cloud Right strategy, where we don't have a cookie cutter approach or saying just go do the following five things and you're going to be fine. We really want to look at the customer and say, what is important to you? What is the timeframe you're looking at? What is the strategic imperative that you have? What data do you have to move? You know, what system do you have to leave behind? And then do the right thing for the customer literally right. And so in this instance, absolutely you know, in my role AWS plays a huge role as you know is one of our core hyper scaler partners, a very good partner, we love AWS. And so making sure that they're always going to be there as part of that infrastructure is part of our strategy. >> You mentioned, oh sorry Dave >> No, I was just saying it makes sense. >> It does make sense in terms of being customer first, we talk with AWS, you can't kind of have an interview with, with one of their folks without talking about that. We work backwards from the customer first. This customer obsession, it sounds like from a cultural perspective, there's pretty strong alignment there with DXC. >> Exactly right, so I think from that perspective we share the same DNA where we look first to the customer and then say okay, how do we deduct what is right for the customer and implement it that way right, Because in many instances as you know, you mentioned the, the two other hyper scaler that we don't talk about, customers usually don't have a single source kind of approach, right They usually have a dual approach. And so while we have to work with that, there's preferred vendors that we engage with, right. And so clearly AWS is one of our preferred vendors that we engage with. >> Can you share an example? I'd love to know a customer that's taken the Cloud Right approach applied really kind of in a textbook way that you think really shows the value of DXC. Any customers, but even by industry if you don't want to name them, come to mind that really show the value of that approach. >> Yeah, So we, we just concluded a major migration from one of our leading insurance companies, a global big company that you know is similar with my birthplace. But what we really did is a Cloud Right approach of migrating them from their legacy mainframe and virtualized systems that they had, to a cloud approach. And in the process of doing this you know, we reduced their overall operating expenses, their cap X expenses obviously but also reduced their overall budget about 30% reduction by moving them to the cloud. Again during the Cloud Right approach of understanding what exactly to move in, which timeframe and what to leave behind right, Because in many instances, customers don't have an exit strategy. They rush to the cloud, but then leave their you know old legacy behind and like oh, what are you going to do with this? And so you need to have a comprehensive end to end system strategy of like, what do you want to leave behind? When do you want to sunset it? And when do you want to migrate certain things over as well? >> That's got to be quite challenging for I would assume a legacy historied insurance company been around for a long time, lots of data, but culturally very different than the cloud mindset. >> You bring up one of those soft skills, right. Which is the cultural aspect of talking with the customers of how do we migrate you? It's not just, and that's why I said it's not just a business decision or a technology decision. In many instances, you affect people's life as well. When you think about old systems administrators that were working on mainframes. Now if you move everything to the clouds, they become obsolete. So rescaling the workforce and having a comprehensive plan is part of the soft skills right, Where you think more comprehensive about the customer, it's not just technology it's really is the full experience right At 360 what happens to the people? How do we migrate the people? But also setting expectations with top management, for example right of saying, how is this going to change our business? What new opportunities are going to be there? So those are all the soft kind of skills as well. >> One of the things that struck me this morning during the AWS keynote is just all of the innovation that that goes on. But AWS really is a flywheel of the customer and all the opportunities that their customers create for AWS, and the opportunities then that AWS technologies create for the customers across industries I just thought that I just kind of really felt that flywheel this morning when Adam was talking about all of the things that they're revealing, you must feel the same as a partner. >> I do, and I I'm a tech geek, so I'm totally excited about this, and it you know it feeds my soul because I can remember when, you know, when we first had analytics with you know Redshift rights and then customers are coming back and going like, well could we do something that is real time? Because we have requirements in this, and then CAFCA came out right, as a new service and I'm like okay, great right, and so we're really there to embrace you know, every new service that comes out from AWS. Which is fantastic, right I mean the speed and agility that comes out with AWS and we totally embraced that for our customers. >> Awesome, Georgia thank you for joining David and me today talking about what's going on with DXC, your partnership with AWS, Cloud Right, and how you're helping customers get Cloud Right. We appreciate your insights and your time. >> Thank you, I appreciate it too, thank you. >> All right. For David Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube, the leader in global alive tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Hey guys, welcome back to the cubes. Continuous coverage day, one of AWS and re-invent live that's right live in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin. Pleased to be here. We are running actually one of the industry's most important hybrid tech events with AWS this year, and it's huge ecosystem of partners. We have two lives dots, two remote studios over 100 guests on the program. We'll be talking about the next decade in cloud innovation. I'm pleased to welcome back one of our alumni and a new guest to the program. Savina Joyce Sabina, Joseph GM of technology partners at AWS joins me as well as Scott Owen, the VP of business development and global channels at air slate, guys. Welcome to the program. Thank you for having us. It's a great to be here. Live happy. Fantastic. Let's go ahead and give the audience an overview of your roles. Sabina. We'll start with you. And then Scott will go to you. >>Great to see you again, Lisa general manager for technology partnerships globally out of the Americas, and we also help partners out of EMEA and APAC grow their business in the Americas. >>Awesome. Scott goes, I'd give, give us an overview of air slate and then your role. You will. >>You bet. Uh, so, uh, air slate, we have two offerings on the AWS marketplace or e-signature offering, which is sign now and then our no-code workflow automation, which we're really excited to bring on the marketplace. I lead our business development, uh, in channels organization for the company global partnership with AWS. Uh, we're very excited about it. >>Talk to me about some of the challenges that the tools that you just mentioned, what challenges are those solving for customers in any industry? So, >>Oh, the biggest challenges right now, obviously we are in a COVID environment and, and companies are trying to drive automation optimization, especially for remote workers to today. And so part of our solutions is obviously solving that in a very, very big way on a global basis as well. >>What are some of the key trends that you're seeing? We've seen so much flux on change in the last 20 months, but what are some of the key trends, especially as it relates to workforce productivity with those work from anywhere environments still persisting, >>It's still persisting. And I'd say the challenge is we're in a hybrid mode where you have both, you know, coming to the office, not coming to the office, but still very remote, just a last week's announcement of a new variant, for example, forcing everybody back out of the office, back into a remote environment. So flexibility, uh, around supporting that hybrid workforce is key. >>And of course here we are at a hybrid event. There are people here at a lot of them in person, but there's also a lot of content that's going on virtually for those folks that weren't quite comfortable coming back to an in-person event. But let's talk about savings about how AWS has been helping joint customers with air slate through the pandemic over the last 20 months as we saw this scatter. And now this work from this hybrid kind of work environment. Yeah. So, >>So I, Scott mentioned, right, that customers are really looking for business solutions. I did have some rapidly increased the last 20 months. We are really, we've been really working together to help both workers and businesses adapt to this remote environment. And customers are looking for simple and cost effective solutions anywhere from, you know, improving and automating their business workflows with e-signature solutions, all the way to complex processes with no code capabilities and air slate does a great job of providing these solutions for our customers. >>Some of the things from a business automation perspective that are critical these days is anything contactless talking about. E-signatures for example, it's, that's really became table stakes in the last 20 months. It's not talk to me about how you would from a biz-dev lens. Describe the partnership that air slate has with AWS. >>Yeah. For our company, it is the most strategic partnership that we have and it's all the way from our board level to our executive leadership team all the way through, throughout our organization end to end it's our most strategic partnership. >>And the things that we know and love about AWS that we've talked about with Sabina is their customer first focus, their customer obsession from a cultural perspective, is there alignment there with air Slate's culture, >>A hundred percent. And one of the cool things about the AWS partner program, which we're in a high echelon period, is the focus on the customer. The customer can reduce their EDP commit by buying solutions like ourselves on the AWS marketplace, as well as the AWS account executives are also paid and incented to sell our solution as well. So it's a one plus one equals three scenario. >>That's a good scenario. One plus one plus three. So be it, talk to me about the evolution. How long have you guys been partnering with air slate? And talk to me about the evolution of the partnership. >>Yeah. We've been working together for a few years now, but I would say the last 15 months, we've really accelerated that partnership again because of customer need and really built out high velocity Cosell motions. We made available to our slate, our partnership resources, both from commercial and public sector to scale the sales motion. As Scott mentioned, they're available in marketplace and they're also part of our ISV accelerate program, which means that our sales teams are incented to work with air slate, to close opportunities. And the key is all of this has led to 250% increase in customer wins year to date as compared to 2020. So that really speaks volumes with the partnership and the need that we are solving for our customers. >>Amazing, amazing growth, 250% in, in a year's period during a pandemic, that's massive, but we saw the acceleration of cloud adoption of digital transformation and this dependence on SAS and cloud for our business lives, our daily lives, our consumer lives. That was really absolutely critical. So Scott, from your perspective, what are some of the key aspects of the AWS relationship that you think really contribute to that success and that big metric that we just met? >>Yeah, absolutely. Well, the metric is driven by the partner programs. When you have a customer that can buy on the marketplace, reduce their EDP commit. You've got account executives that are incented to resell us, but for us, we have really great leadership support around the globe. We've created joint KPIs of which we all have stacked hands on and said, here's the KPIs we want to deliver as a joint partnership. And we're delivering those, which is creating these results as well. Can you share >>Some of those KPIs even at a high level? >>Yes. A lot of them are what, uh, opportunities in our renewal base can we bring into the ado, uh, UWS, uh, ecosystem, if you will. Um, as well as in nearly every deal that we're in, we're asking, is this an AWS customer? Is it a Greenfield opportunity for AWS and bring in the associated teams together to close that opportunity, >>Scott, about some of the business outcomes, the benefits that your joint customers are achieving, leveraging the power of this partnership? >>Absolutely well there's enormous cost savings in the solutions that we bring to the table creates the optimization that we talked about, that they need. It's also driving that digital transformation, any company, any size in order to survive has to move digitally into this new space. And we believe that the two offerings we bring to the marketplace can solve that for them. >>That's one of the things that we saw, there's definitely some silver linings that have come out of the last 20 I'm losing count 22 months, something like that. And nothing like that, right. A time to value is absolutely critical. Let's talk about now go to market Sydney and going back over to you, how does AWS support partners like air slate, um, and taking the solutions to market? You talked about the marketplace, but talk to me about that from a strategic perspective. Yes. >>So one of the things we are very focused on is creating business automation solutions, especially for industry verticals across automotive, telecommunications, healthcare, life sciences, and air slate really has solutions that help address all of the horizontal use cases and the vertical use cases, which means then we can focus our demand generation activities and actually help both our direct sales team and also our channel partners really, really scale. So again, it's kudos to Scott and the air slate team in order to be able to really scale this partnership, but most importantly help our customers through these really tough times in the past 20 months. >>And it's, uh, uh, you mentioned that with the Omicron Darion variant being announced just in the last week, of course, these challenging times persist in this uncertainty persists to it's important to have partnerships, but I also imagine Scott from your, from your perspective, being able to show transparency to the customers that you're really one team, you know, with AWS, with your channel partners. Talk to me a little bit about that. What does customers actually see and feel >>While we're excited, especially around the ecosystem piece is for example, in the last few months, we've been able to activate 35 of AWS's largest channel partners, uh, due to the fact that we are in this hand, stacked KPI go to market together. And so the ecosystem of AWS, it's the trusted partner of almost every customer. And we are trying to advantage ourselves with that trusted relationship, bringing a set of solutions that helps drive the customer's outcome. >>You mentioned an important word there, Scott, that trust that is critical for every company that is becoming a data company. If they haven't become a data company by now, they're probably not going to be around much longer. Talk to me about from a trust perspective, what that means for your customers to be able to adopt these solutions, automate their businesses, allow their folks to work from anywhere and have that trust and this solid partnership and technology. >>Well, and that's the benefit of the AWS partnership. When you think of security, reliability, our entire offering basis completely on the AWS infrastructure. So we bring that trust of you can trust that the technology that it's sitting on, you can trust that it's secure, that's reliable, and we're bringing a set of solutions that drives those customer outcomes, which is cost savings, optimizations, et cetera. That combination is a win-win out there. >>And that outcome spaced focus is critical. What are some of the things Scott that folks can learn at air Slate's booth this week at reinvent for those folks that are here in person and those folks that are attending virtually >>Great question. I love that question first and foremost, both offerings are on the AWS marketplace, but we're the only e-signature offering on the marketplace. And we're the only end to end workflow automation offering on the marketplace as well. So again, uh, important to note we're on that AWS marketplace, AEs from AWS can take advantage of that end. Customers can take advantage of that. Uh, and we take advantage of it just to the, our great go to market partnership. >>We're going to mark great, good to market partnership, but also I'm hearing a pretty significant differentiator being the only ones in the marketplace with those. Talk to me about how that, I mean, one, one more question. How does that facilitate like customer conversations? I imagine that's a huge differential >>Here's is a significant different traitor to us obviously, but again, it's the power of one. Plus one equals three in the partnership, we brought a set of solutions that the customer needs. We do it on the AWS marketplace and AWS infrastructure that we sit on that creates that trust factor that you mentioned. >>I have to add, right? That air slate and team, when they saw that they were the first right, they embraced that and they broke ground and they listed on marketplace and that's paying off for them. >>Very smart. Well guys, congratulations on your joint success. Your go to market strategy seems brilliant, and we look forward to hearing many more successful years from airside and AWS together. Thank you for your insights. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure. You were great for my guests. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from AWS. Reinvent the leader in global alive tech coverage.

>>Welcome back to Los Angeles, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here on day three of the cubes, coverage of coop con and cloud native con north America, 21, Dave, we've had a lot of great conversations. The last three days it's been jam packed. Yes, it has been. And yes, it has been fantastic. And it's been live. Did we mention that it's inline live in Los Angeles and we're very pleased to welcome one of our alumni back to the program. David Stephanie is here. The CEO of Trulio David. Welcome back. It's good to see you. >>Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Isn't it great to be in person? Oh man. It's been a reunion. >>It hasn't been a reunion and they have Ubered been talking about these great little, have you seen these wristbands that they have? I actually asked >>For two, cause I'm a big hugger, so >>Excellent. So, so here we are day three of coupon. That's actually probably day five, our third day of coverage. I'm losing track to it's Friday. I know that, that I can tell you, you guys announced two dot five a couple of weeks ago. Tell us what's in that. What's exciting. Before we crack open Twilio, uh, choy. >>Sure, sure. Well, it's been exciting to be here. Look, the theme right of resiliency realize has been it's right up our wheelhouse, right? To signal that more people are getting into production type of environments. More people require data protection for cloud native applications, right? And, uh, there's two dot five releases. It is as an answer to what we're seeing in the market. It really is centered predominantly around, uh, ransomware protection. And uh, you know, for us, when we look at this, I I've done a lot of work in, in cybersecurity, my career. And we took a hard look about a year ago around this area. How do we do this? How do we participate? How do we protect and help people recover? Because recovery that's part of the security conversation. You can talk about all the other things, but recovery is just as important. And we look at, uh, everything from a zero trust architecture that we provide now to adhering, to NIST standards and framework that's everything from immutability. Uh, so you can't touch the backups now, right? Uh, th that's fine to encryption, right? We'll encrypt from the application all the way to that, to the storage repository. And we'll leverage Keem in that system. So it's kind of like Bitcoin, right? You need a key to get your coin. You as an end-user only have your key to your data alone. And that's it. So all these things become more and more important as we adopt more cloud native technology. And >>As the threat landscape changes dramatically. >>Oh yeah. I got to tell you right. Every time we, you, you publish an application into another cloud, it's a new vector, right? So now I'm living in a multi-cloud world where multiple applications in my data now lives, right? So people are trying to attack backups through, uh, consoles and the ministry of consoles to the actual back of themselves. So new vectors, new problems need new solutions. >>And you mentioned, you mentioned something, you, you, you asked the question, how do we participate? And we are here at KU con uh, w uh, cloud native foundation. So what about, what's your connection to the open source community and efforts there? How do you participate in that? >>Yeah, so it's a really great question because, you know, uh, we are a closed source solution that focuses all of our efforts on the open source community and protecting cloud native applications. Our roots have been protecting cloud native applications since 2013, 2014, and with a lot of very large logos. And, um, you know, through time there are open source projects that do emerge, you know, in this community. And for example, Valero is an open source data protection platform, um, for all of its goodness, as a, as a community-based project, they're also deficiencies, right? So Valero in itself is, uh, focuses only on label based applications. It doesn't really scale. It doesn't have a UI it's really CLI driven, which is good for some people and it's free. But you know, if you need to really talk about an enterprise grade platform, this is where we pick up, you know, we, in our last release, we gave you the ability to capture your Valero based backups. And now you want to be an adult with an enterprise caliber, you know, backup solution and continue to protect your environment and have compliance and governance needs all satisfied. That's where, that's where we really stand out. >>Well, when you're talking to customers in any industry, what are the things that you talk about in terms of relief, categorizing the key differentiators that really make Trulia stand out above the competition? >>Yeah. Cause there, there a bunch of, they're a bunch of great competitors out there. There's no doubt about it. A lot of the legacy folks that you do see perhaps on those show floor, they do tuck in Valero and under the, under the covers, they can check a box or you can set aside some customer needs some of the pure play people that, that we do see out there, great solutions too. But really where we shine is, you know, we are the most flexible agnostic solution that there is in this market. And we've had people like red hat and Susa and verandas, digital ocean and HPS morale. And the list goes on, certify, say, Trulio is the solution of choice. And now no matter where you are in this journey or who you're using, we have your back. So there's a lot of flexibility. There we are complete storage agnostic. >>We are cloud agnostic in going back to how you want to build our architecture application. People are in various phases in their, in their journey. A lot of times, many moons ago, you may have started with just a label based application. Then you have another department that has a new technique and they want to use helm, or you may be adopting open shift and you're using operators to us. It doesn't matter. You have peace of mind. So whether you have, you have to protect multiple departments or you as an end user, as one single tenant are using various techniques, we'll discover or protect and we can move forward. >>So if you looked at, if you look at it from a workload basis, um, and you look at your customers are the workloads that you're protecting. What's, what's the mix of what you think of as legacy virtualized things versus containerized things. And then, and then, and then the other kind of follow on to that is, um, are you seeing a lot of modernization and migration or are you seeing people leave the legacy things alone and then develop net new in sort of separate silos? >>Yeah. So that's a great question. And I, to tell you the answer varies, that's, that's the honest answer, right? You end up having, you may have a group or a CIO that says, look, your CTO says, we're moving to this new architecture. The water's great, bring your applications in. And so either it's, we're going to lift and shift an application and then start to break it apart over time and develop microservices, or we're gonna start net new. And it really does run, run the gambit. And so, you know, as we look at, for some of those people, they have peace of mind that they can bring their two on applications in and we can recover. And for some people that say, look, I'm going to start brand new, and these are gonna be stateless applications. Um, we've seen this story before, right? Our, our, uh, uh, I joke around, it's kinda like the movie Groundhog's day. >>Uh, you know, we, we started many moons ago within the OpenStack world and we started with stateless to stateful. Always, always, always finds a way, but for the stateless people, um, when you start thinking about security, I've had conversations with CSOs around the world who say, I'm going to publish a stainless application. What I'm concerned about things like drift, you know, what's happening in runtime may be completely different than what I intended. So now we give you the ability to capture that runtime state compare. The two things identify what's changed. If you don't like what you see, and you can take that point in time recovery into a sandbox and forensically take it apart. You know, one of our superpowers, if you will, is the, our point in time, backups are all in an open format. Everyone else has proprietary Schemos. So the benefit of an open format is you have the ability to leverage a lot of third party tooling. So take a point in time, run scanners across it. And it, God forbid Trulio goes away. You still have access and you can recreate a point in time. So when you start thinking about compliance, heavy environments, think about telcos, right? Or financial institutions. They have to keep things for 15 years, right? Technologies change, architectures change. You can't have that lock-in >>So we continue to thrive. And on that front, one of the marketing terms that we hear a lot, and I want to get your opinion on this as a feature proofing, how do you, what does, what does it mean to you and Trillium and how do you enable that for organizations, like you said, for the FSI is I have to keep data for 15 years and other industries that have to keep it for maybe even longer. >>I mean, right. The future proof, uh, you know, terminology, that's part of our mantra actually, when I talked about, you know, a superpower being as agnostic and flexible as can be right, as long as you adhere to standards, right? The standards that are out here, we have that agnostic play. And then again, not just capturing an applications, metadata data, but that open format, right? Giving you that open capability to unpack something. So you're not, there is no, there is no vendor lock-in with us at all. So all these things play a part into, into future-proofing yourself. And because we live and breathe cloud native applications, you know, it's not just Kubernetes right? Over the course of time, there'll be other things, right. You're going to see mixed workloads too. They're gonna be VM based in the cloud and container based in the cloud and server lists as well. But you, as long as you have that framework to continuously build off of it, that's, that's where we go. You know, uh, it shouldn't matter where your application lives, right? At the end of the day, we will protect the application and its data. It can live anywhere. So conversations around multi-cloud change, we start to think and talk across cloud, right? The ability to move your application, your data, wherever it, wherever it needs to be to. >>Well, you talked about recoverability and that is the whole point of backing up video. You have to be able to recover something that we've seen in the last 18, 19 months. Anyone can backup >>Data. >>That's right. That's right. If you can't recover it, or if you can't recover it in time. Yeah. We're talking like going on a business potential and we've seen the massive changes in the security landscape in the last 18, 19 months ransomware. I was looking at some, some cybersecurity data that showed that just in the first half of this calendar year, January one to June 30, 20, 21, ransomware was up nearly 11 X DDoS attacks are up. We've got this remote workforce. That's going to probably persist for a while. So the ability to recover data from not if we get hit by ransomware, but when we get hit by ransomware is >>When you're, you're absolutely right. And, and, and to your plate anyway. So anyone can back up anything. When you look at it, it's at its highest form. We talk about point time where you orchestration, right. Backup is a use case. Dr. Is a use case, right? How do you, reorchestrate something that's complex, right? The containers, these applications in the cloud native space, there are morphous, they're living things, right? The metadata is different from one day to the next, the data itself is different from when one day the net to the next. So that's, what's so great about Trillium. It's such an elegant solution. It allows your, reorchestrate a point in time when and where you need it. So yes. You have to be able to recover. Yes. It's not a matter of if, but when. Right. And that's why recovery is part of that security conversation. Um, you know, I I've seen insurance companies, right? They want to provide insurance for ransomware. Well, you're gonna have enough attacks where they don't want to provide that insurance anymore. It costs too much. The investment that you make with, with Trulio will save you so much more money down the road. Right. Uh, who's our product manager actually gave a talk about that yesterday and the economics were really interesting. >>Hmm. So how has the recovery methodology who participates in that changed over time? As, as we, you know, as we are in this world of developer operators who take on greater responsibility for infrastructure things. Yeah. Who's, who's responsible for backup and recovery today and how, how has that changed >>Everyone? Everyone's responsible. So, you know, we rewind however many years, right? And it used predominantly CIS admin that was in charge of backup administrator, but a ticket in your backup administrator, right. Cloud native space and application lifecycle management is a team sport. Security is a team sport. It's a holistic approach. Right? So when you think about the, the team that you put out on the field, whether your DevOps, your SRE dev sec ops it ops, you're all going to have a need for point in time, we orchestration for various things and the term may not be backup. Right? It's something else. And maybe for test dev purposes, maybe for forensic purposes, maybe for Dr. Right. So I say it's a team sport and security as a holistic thing that everyone has to get on board with >>The three orchestration is exactly the right way to talk about absolute these processes. It's not just recovery, you're rebuilding >>Yeah. A complex environment. It's always changing. >>That's one of the guarantees. It's always going to be changing >>That much. >>Can you give us a, leave us with a customer example that you think really articulates the value of what Trulio delivers? >>Yeah. So it's interesting. I won't say who the customer is, but I'll tell you it's in the defense agency, it's a defense agency. Uh, they have developers all over the place. Uh, they need self-service capabilities for the tenants to mind their own backups. So you don't need to contact someone, right. They can build, they have one >>Dashboard, single pane of glass or truth to manage all their Corinthians applications. And it gives them that infrastructure to progress whether your dev ops or not your it ops, uh, this, this group has rolled it out across the nation and they're using in their work with very sensitive environments. So now we have they're back. And what are some of the big business outcomes that they're achieving already? >>The big business outcomes? Well, so operational efficiencies are definitely first and foremost, right? Empowering the end user with more tools, right? Because we've seen this shift left and people talking about dev ops, right. So how do I empower them to do more? So I see that operational efficiency, the recoverability aspect, God forbid, something goes wrong. How do you, how do you do that in the cost of that? Um, and then also, um, being native to the environment, the Trillium solution is built for Kubernetes. It is built on go. It is a Qubit stateless Kubernetes application. So you have to have seamless integration into these environments. And then going back to what I was saying before, knowing peace of mind, the credibility aspect, that it is blessed by, you know, red hat and suicide Mirandas and all these other, other folks in the field, um, that you can guarantee it's going to work >>Well, that helps to give your customers the confidence that there, and that confidence might sound trivial. It's not, especially when we're talking about security, it's not at all that, that's a, that's a big business outcome for you guys. When a customer says, I'm confident I have the right solution, we're going to be able to recover when things happen, we try, we fully trust in the solution that we're, >>And we'll bring more into production faster that helps everyone out here too. Right? It feels good. You have that credibility. You have that assurance that I can move faster and I can move into different clouds faster. And that's, we're gonna continue to put, we're gonna continue to push the envelope there. You know, coming a, as we look into, you know, going forward, we're going to come out with other capabilities. That's going to continue to differentiate ourselves from, from folks. Uh, we'll, we'll talk about in time, the ability to propagate data across multiple clouds simultaneously. So making RTOs look at the split seconds and minutes. And so I hope that we can have that conversation next time we were together, because it's really exciting. >>Any, any CTA that you want to give to the audience, any, any, uh, like upcoming or recent webinars that you think they would be really benefit from? >>I guess one thing I put out there is that, um, I understand that people need to continuously learn. There is a skillset hole in, in this market. We can, we understand that, you know, and people look to us as not just a vendor, but a partner. And a lot of the questions that we do get are how do I do this? Or how do I do that? Engage us, ask us to consume our product is really, really easy. You can download from the website or go to an, you know, red hats operator hub, or go to the marketplace over at Susa, and let's begin to begin and we're here to help. And so reach out, right? We want everyone to be successful. >>Awesome. trillium.io. David, thank you for joining us. This has been an exciting conversation. Good >>To see you all. >>Likewise. Good to see you in person take care. We look forward to the next time we see you when unpacking what other great things are going on on Trulia. We appreciate your >>Time. Thank you so much. Good to be here >>For David's fie and David Nicholson, the two Davids I'm going to sandwich. I'm Lisa Martin, you we're coming to you live from Los Angeles. This is Q con cloud native con north America, 2021. Stick around our next guest joins us momentarily.

(music) >> Hi, welcome to today's session of the CUBE's presentation of the AWS STARTUP SHOWCASE. New breakthroughs in DevOps, Data Analytics and Cloud Management Tools. This segment features HackerOne for DevOps. I'm Lisa Martin, and I am joined by Alex Rice, the founder and CTO of HackerOne. Alex, welcome to the program. >> Thank you for having me. >> Alex and I are going to spend the next 20 minutes or so talking about strengthening cloud application security with HackerOne. I want to go ahead Alex, and start you founded HackerOne back in 2012. Talk to me about, why you founded it? What were the glaring obvious gaps in the market? >> So I, I started out with the software development engineering background before moving into security about halfway through my career. And one of the things that's always bothered me about the security industry is how unreliable our feedback loops are. We only ever really get quality software by having as many, many points of feedback as possible in there from customer surveys and analytics and monitoring. And the security industry has just been really spotty about that. So when I was running the product security team for, for Facebook for a number of years, one of the surprising things that we did, that ended up being one of the best feedback loops we had, we just said to the, to the, the world hackers out there, if you find a vulnerability, find a security flaw, find something that we missed, we'll reward you for it. And we were really blown away with what very creative folks all across the world came back with. And so this concept of inviting outside friendly hackers to point out your flaws in exchange for compensation, ends up being a very valuable tool for any engineering team and any, any security team, particularly those that are adapting to more modern, faster agile environments. >> Right? Like DevOps. So you've amassed a community of over 1.2 million good actors, ethical hackers as you say. How do you vet those folks since there's so many nefarious actors out there? >> It's a great question what we start with. The bulk of the programs that we run on HackerOne are public. They're open to the world. There are organizations like Facebook and GM and the department of defense that say to anybody out there, if you find something that we've missed, we want to know about it. So it doesn't, you're not giving the hackers any special permissions or access that they wouldn't normally have. You're, you're inviting them to collaborate with you. From there we learned a lot about the hackers skillsets and demeanor and their track record to then vet them for more private or targeted programs. So while there are these public programs, that is where those million hackers originate from that list is, is vetted and filtered down for more private engagements. Because most folks building technology, they don't need a million hackers to help them out. They need 10 of the right hackers on their team at the right time. And vetting them and matching those hackers to the right challenges is, is a core part of what we try to do here at HackerOne. >> One of the things that we talk a lot about on this program is, you know, the last five years, this shortage, the cybersecurity skills gap. Is, is HackerOne's answer to that? These 1.2 million ethical hackers who can find those vulnerabilities that are open vectors for criminals to exploit. >> It's part of it. It's very much a part of it. My personal hypothesis about this on a big part of why we have such a glaring skills gap is because we've tried to separate it out from core engineering and DevOps principles. The most secure products out there, the ones that hopefully you trust and we all use regularly. Security is a core part of their engineering practices. It's a core part of their DevOps practices and the skillset overlaps dramatically there. And so we've had a lot more success in involving the core DevOps and engineering teams in security practices and really doing it as, as any other component of, of quality software development. And the challenge of that is that you're not going to find everything that you need in a single job description. If you're building a modern application or deploying modern infrastructure, the diversity of skill sets that you need is just staggering. And if you try to apply the old employment model of, okay, I need a security expert on this application. I need an expert in AWS and Kubernetes and RDS, and queuing systems and encryption for my and database security and account takeover. You quickly realize that it's just impossible for every organization that needs all that expertise to hire somebody with all that expertise. So our, our approach and what we try to do is to make sure that the core teams own responsibility for that security, but they're able to tap experts when they need them at, at, in a model that is really much more acclimated to how modern software is built. >> Got it. Okay. Interesting. Talk to me about the HackerOne security platform. Let's kind of dissect that. >> Absolutely. So there's a, there's a few different types of programs that we run for customers. At our, at its hard. There are public programs that we refer to as, as vulnerability disclosure programs. This is usually a security ad, it could be as simple as a security ad for a email address report vulnerabilities. That's really just an invitation to the world out there that says. Hey, we, our application is available to the public and you as a member of the public, if you find a security issue that we should be aware of, we'd like to hear about it. And it's incredible the amount of value that software teams receive just from asking, this putting that invitation out there. Then in parallel with those, for the organizations that are looking for more talented, a deeper dive we've run bug bounty programs, which is a very similar flavor, but the, our engineering and software teams will post bounties for the specific types of issues that they care about. Meaning if you can find a way to compromise user data, or if you can get access to our infrastructure, we'll reward $5,000 or $10,000. And you're specifically asking people to help you find things that will align with your goals and protect your customers. And then the, the third model that we do are our security assessments. These are a very targeted point in time assessments. They're not ongoing commitments. There are when a DevOps team is deploying a new application or releasing a new architecture or running new infrastructure, when they need a very targeted set of expertise for a constrained timeline to fit into their release processes, we can run assessments of matching just a small number of factors to what you care about and tie all that into your to release process. >> Okay. Let's talk about now, we know, one of the things that we've seen in the last 18 months as this massive acceleration to digital, we've seen a much more cloud adoption and really lifelines. Zoom, Netflix, for example, being these lifelines. As more organizations are moving to the cloud, we think, well, maybe risks are getting higher. With respect to customers that are moving to AWS. How does hacker one security platform help? >> The potential of technology. If it wasn't clear before the pandemic started, it should be clear to everybody now, like it is, it's unbelievable the positive impact it's able to have on our lives. And at the same time, most people don't trust technology. We as a technology industry have done a poor job of earning the public's trust that the technology that many of their lives are starting to depend upon is as trustworthy as they needed to be. And that's not a new challenge. Like as long as we've been developing software, there have been bugs, there have been security problems, but it's really amplified it both with the pace of development and just how accessible that's becoming to that to the world. And so in, in prior development models where we were releasing software, much more infrequently, where it was deployed in very controlled environments and accessible only to specific people who happen to be in a physical location or had a particular corporate account, that's all starting to change. Software is being released so much faster at a, at a pace that their traditional security models were already struggling to keep up with. And now are just completely, completely outclass. That's the trend number one that's changed. It's just the speed at which we have to apply. Security is, is unprecedented in this new world. And then at the same time, the access has just gone through the roof, the way of operating a modern business and surfing modern customers dictates that we have to meet them where they are wherever they are in the world, which means the adversaries have the same level of access that we're now affording to our, to our customers. So for our financial services customers that have gone completely remote access in the, in the last year, that's a whole range of attack surface. It wasn't accessible for many of them are using cloud systems to do that. Our healthcare customers that previously a tech service, it was only accessible when you were actually in the hospital is now open in large parts of the public and has many many more private conversations than it did before. And it's more than anything else that realization that we need this technology to be always on accessible anywhere in the world and trusted because people need to trust it. Like their lives depend on it. Literally has, has really changed how we need to look at this challenge. >> Yeah. That speed at which the attack surface is just spreading. And I was looking at some cybersecurity data in the last week or so, and there's really no signs of it slowing down. We saw this, the rapid shift to remote work a year and a half ago, remote learning. And we've got obviously we're in this hybrid world now where, you know, companies are in hybrid cloud, we're in this hybrid workforce of some remote, some homes, some doing both back and forth with that attack surface spreading. Give me an idea of some of the customers that you guys are working with to help them with HackerOne secure their AWS environments. >> Yeah. Our customer base really follows technology adoption trends. All of our early customers were, were tech companies that are kind of the ones that pioneered this model. Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Twitter, Uber were the, the early tech companies that quickly over the first ones to realize that the traditional approach to security model was just insufficient for a new cloud forward environment. Behind them you'll find technological, technology leaders in every industry. It's hard to just talk about the tech industry today. When you look at any industry out there, you can find one or two examples of very technology forward companies. On the finance side, customers like Goldman Sachs and Capital One. They really view themselves as technology companies these days. They're not finished service organizations or banking organizations, they're first and foremost technology companies. They were the first, some of the first to adopt this, this model. On the military side, the department of defense was one of the first organizations to do this cause they've long had, they're both one of the most traditional organizations out there. They've always had innovation arms to adapting practices like this. The automobile industry was a little bit early on the technology adoption trend. As consumers started relying on and demanding more technology in their vehicles. They were one of the early adopters of, of a practice here. And in the more recent years, the line has just completely gone away. We don't really use what we were engaging with a customer you don't really even ask. Are you, what's your, what's your digital strategy? or do you have a technology team? or are you developing first party applications? Do you use any cloud services? The answer to it is just is it's yes. So much more often than it's not. I think there's the safe assumption in 2021 is if you're, if you're doing business, you are probably have a software engineering team, you are probably deploying on the cloud. And if you're not, you're probably not going to be doing business in the, in the next decade. >> Right. That's, that's going to be a big differentiator, but you bring up a good point that every you can, you can almost say every company these days is a tech company or needs to become a tech powered company, a data-driven company. That is critical to especially organizations in this climate being able to pivot continuously as our world is changing. I want you to walk us through Alex, some of the HackerOne assessments that folks can do specifically in the AWS environment. >> For specifically for AWS, what we found is there's a category of AWS and we're really a cloud customers that want the always on security feedback loops that come from bounty programs. And so we, we've had that offering for quite a while of folks that want a feedback, no matter when it happens, because they're continuously received releasing applications. But then increasingly one of the use cases that we discovered was folks were in the midst of moving new applications to AWS, almost on a, on a weekly or monthly cadence. And they need needed a security testing cycle that would keep pace with that. Particularly folks that are ongoing any type of cloud migration or lifted shift of their, of their applications. And so we, we rolled out at AWS tailored specific version of our security assessment product. You can get it in the AWS marketplace as well, that lets you spin up a targeted security assessment on demand through the, through your native AWS tooling, whenever you need it. And the most common use case being this, we plan to open up access to this application next week. We'd love to have some hackers kicking the tires on it this week before the whole world has the opportunity to do that. All of those findings are then integrated back into Rietta U.S security hub, and tailored in a way that is meant for the DevOps teams and engineering teams that are deploying to, to be able to tell us what's going on. We're not asking folks to, to break out into specific security workflows. We really fundamentally believe that security accessible to DevOps teams is, is what's needed to keep us all moving fast and ship trustworthy now applications in the cloud. >> Is that at all a facilitator, you know, when we talk about DevOps folks, security folks, Devsecops. We talk about sort of the, the cultural shift and developers needing the DevOps folks need to be focusing on getting applications out at speed, security folks, developers, you know, we don't want to have to have security responsibilities. Are you helping to facilitate some of those? >> Yeah. We are, and it is more of a personal opinion here, but as someone who's worked on on many engineering teams and built multiple application and product security teams, the strongest ones in the industry, the lines between the product team and the product security team or the DevOps team or the security team are non-existent, those experts exist on to. I hate terms like Devsecops. We, it's necessary to, to approach things, but like if you're going to have a term like DevSecOps, you need to expand it to like DevQaSec in for ops. And it's just, you can't possibly capture every skillset and the critical aspect of quality software development in, in a short little acronym like that. And to me, DevSecOps just feels like a, an attempt by the industry to get invited to a party that nobody wants them at. And I really think we have to rewire our thinking. And if you have a, a development and an operations team, which are the two core functions there that doesn't take hands-on responsibility for the security of what they're developing and operating you're in trouble. Right? The more you try to outsource that to another team, another set of expertise, the worst you're going to be. There's a, there's a analogy that I draw to this that is a little bit of a poor analogy, but it, if it works well for me. For those of us that have been around in software engineering for, for long enough, there was a huge push in the early two thousands to build quality assurance processes across the board. Like everyone was investing in QA and building our QA teams. And every study across the board showed quality just tank after people invested millions in QA and quality assurance. And when, when you dig into it, it's intuitive, right? Like as soon as you can say. Oh, thank goodness quality is now somebody else's job. I've got, there's a dedicated team that can think about quality and deal with quality. Quality goes away. And security follows the exact same paradigm. Modern software is too complex, too interconnected, to be able to expect somebody else to completely do it for you. And so we really try to consult our customers on you should be thinking about organizational structures and responsibility, major SIGs that ensure developers and operations have the seat at the table in the security of the product. And then the challenge is how do we get the right people onto those teams? How do we get the right experience to them versus bolting it on with another acronym in the middle? >> I love your opinion there. In terms of facilitating that the latter part of what you just spoke, how are you finding those conversations within customers going? Is this now, I mean, think about it from a security perspective, it's going up to the board level imperative. Are you finding, especially in the last 18 months that your conversations with organizations are changing as that escalates up the chain? >> They are, but we also take a very pragmatic approach to this. I give you a very, a, a fairly, a personal opinion there on how to do it. The reality is most organizations aren't structured that way. They have a DevOps team, they have a security team, and the two are often in somewhat of an adversarial relationship. And, and we, we certainly work within those environments. You certainly can have a mature security program in an environment like that. It's not like there's one silver bullet to solve it, but we do work closely with our customers to try to bring down those walls. And increasingly technology leaders are engaged and hands-on, and are looking for ways to make this better. Five years ago, the CSO, The Chief Information Security Officer was almost always our main buyer, and our main point of contact. Is much, much more common now to see VPs of engineering, CIO's, CTOs have direct line responsibility for, security teams. And I think we're starting to see the early shifts of work structures that reflect that. If you have a DevOps team and you have a security team, that's responsible for the security of what the DevOps team is doing, and they are reporting to the same executive where there are major points of bureaucracy and politics between them. Every executive we talked to feels that, they lived through an experience like that, and they're motivated to start bringing those balls down. >> They've been through that pain and know the imperative give up getting alignment. So we've talked a lot in the last minute here. So I'm curious, we talked a lot about what HackerOne is doing, what you're doing for the AWS community, what's in it for your customers, but I'd love to understand just really quickly what's in it for the hackers? I do understand that you guys have more ethical hackers than black hats out there are out there, they're new assistants, which is good to know. But, what's in it? You know, from a bounty perspective for the hackers that work with you. >> We believe we're creating meaningful economic opportunity for, for hackers out there. We've had over a dozen hackers that have made a million dollars on the platform helping customers. But more importantly, it maps to how you want to develop your skillset. As hackers, a big part of the cyber security workforce challenge is these unrealistic job expectations that require every security engineer to be a Jack of all trades and work across 10 different product teams and master all of these skills. Whereas this model allows hackers to specialize. You can be a specialist in a very particular piece of technology and apply that specialization across everyone that depends upon it, and focus on what you can do best without dealing with the office politics or the unrealistic job expectations of what's needed in a modern school professional. It's one of the most painful things about the security community is you'll, you'll look at junior entry-level job descriptions for security engineers that already require five years of experience and expertise in 10 different technologies, which is just it's unrealistic. You're you're not going to find it. You don't want to, to be that individual. But it's also, it's back to what we were talking about earlier. It's trying to ask to find unicorns for roles that are just not in line with how modern software is built. And so I think for that, for the hacker community, what we hope we're doing is we hope we're creating meaningful economic opportunity. We're also hope we're enabling folks to develop and contribute to society with their skills in a way that they would like to. >> Awesome. Alex, thank you so much for joining me today, giving me kind of a background on what HackerOne's doing, what you're doing for AWS, the opportunities what's in it for me as a customer, what's in it for me as an ethical hacker. It's been great having you on the program. >> Thank you very much. Take care. >> This has been our coverage of the AWS startup showcase new breakthroughs in DevOps, data analytics and cloud management tools for Alex Rice. I'm Lisa Martin. Thanks for watching. (music)

>>Hello. Everyone were here it the Data Cloud summit and we had a real treat for you. I call it the CMO Power Panel. We're gonna explore how data is transforming marketing, branding and promotion, and with me, a three phenomenal marketing pros and chief marketing officers. Denise Person is the CMO Snowflakes Kat Holden of Thought spot and Laura Langdon of Whip pro Folks. Great to see you. Thanks so much for coming on the Cube. >>Great to be with you, David. >>Awesome. Denise, let's let's start with you. I want to talk about the role and the changing role of the CMO. It's changed a lot, you know, sports, of course, with all this data, but I wonder what you're experiencing and can you share us share with us? Why marketing, especially, is being impacted by data? >>Well, data is really what has helped us marketers turn ourselves into revenue drivers instead instead of call centers, and that's definitely a much better place to be. We come today measure things that were never possible before. What a person most excited about is the rial time access to data we have today. In the past, we used to get stale reports, you know, weeks after a marketing program was over. Today we get data in real time as our campaigns are up and running. And this is really what enables us to make those riel time adjustments to our investments in real time. And that is really have a profound impact on the results were having. And also today, you know, more than ever, adaptability is truly the superpower or marketing today and day. That's really what allows us to adapt to our customers preferences in real time. And that's really critical at this time. >>That's interesting what you say because, you know, in tough times used to be okay. Sales and engineering put a brick wall around those and you know the name it. Marketing, Say Okay, cut. But now it's like you go to marketing and say, Okay, what's the data say? How do we have to pivot and Scott? I wonder what of data and cloud really brought to the modern marketer that you might not have had before this modern era? >>Well, it Z this era. I don't think there's ever been a better time to be a marketer than there is right now, and The primary reason is that we have access to data and insights like we've never had, and I'm not exaggerating. When I say that I have 100 times more access to data, then I had a decade. It's just phenomenal when you look at the power of cloud search, ai These new consumer experiences for analytics. We can do things in seconds that used to take days and so it's B comments did he said. Ah, superpower for us toe. Have access to so much data and it's, you know, Kobe has been hard. Ah, lot of our marketing teams who've never worked harder, making this pivot from the physical world to the virtual world. But there, you know, at least we're working, and three other part of it is that digital she's created this phenomenal opportunity for us because the beauty of digital and digital transformation is that everything now is trackable, which makes it measurable and means that we can actually get insights that we can act on in a smarter way. And you know, it's worth giving an example. If you just look at this show right, like this event that we're doing in a physical world, all of you watching at home, you'd be in front of us in a room and we'd be able to know if you're in the room, right? We tracking the scanners when you walked in. But that's basically it. At that point, we don't really get a good sense for how much you like what we're saying. Uh, maybe you filled out a survey, but only 5 to 10% of people ever do that in the digital world. We know how long you stick around, and as a result, like it's easy people could just with the click, you know, change the channel. And so the bar for content has gone way up as we do these events. But we know how long people are sticking around. And that's what's so special about it. You know Denise and her team as the host of this show, they're going to know how long people watch this segment and that knowing is powerful. I mean, it's simple as using a product like thought spot. You could just ask a question. How many you know, what's the average view? Time by session and boom and sharp pops up. You're gonna know what's working, what's not. And that's something that you could take and act on in the future. And that's what our That's what customers were doing. So you know, snowflake in the spot that we share a customer with Lulu and they're tracking programs. So what people are watching at home, how long they're watching what they're watching next, and they're able to do that in a super granular way and improve their content as a result. And that's the power of this new world we live in. Uh, that's made the cloud and data so accessible to folks like us. >>Well, thank you for that. And I want to come back to that notion to understand how you're bringing data into your marketing office. But I wanna bring Laura and Laura were pro You guys partner with a lot of brands, a lot of companies around the world. I mean, thousands of partners, obviously snowflake and thought spot are, too. How are you using data to optimize these co marketing relationships? You know specifically, what are the trends that you're seeing around around things like customer experience? >>So, you know, we used data for all of our marketing decisions our own as well as with our partners. And I think what's really been interesting about partner marketing data is we can we can feed that back to our sales team, right? So it's very directional for them as well in their efforts moving forward. So I think that's a place where specifically to partners, it's really powerful. We can also use our collective data to go out to customers to better effect. And then, you know, regarding these trends, we just did a survey on the state of the intelligent enterprise. We we interviewed 300 companies, US and UK, and there were three Interesting. I thought statistics relevant to this, um, Onley 22% of the companies that we interviewed felt that their marketing was where it needed to be from an automation standpoint. So lots of room for us to grow right. Lots of space for us to play. And 61% of them believed that it was critical that they implement this technology to become a more intelligent enterprise. But when they ranked readiness by function, marketing came in six right, so H R R and D finance were all ahead of marketing. It was followed by sales, you know, And then the final data point that I think was interesting was 40% of those agreed that while the technology was the most important thing, that thought leadership was critical, you know? And I think that's where marketers really could bring. You know, our tried and true experience to bear and merging with this technology. >>Great. Thank you. So so did he say I've been getting the Kool Aid injection this week around Data Cloud have been pushing people, But now that I have the CMO in front of me, I wanna ask about the data cloud and what it means specifically for the customers. And what are some of the learnings? Maybe that you've experienced that can support some of the things that that Laura and Scott were just discussing. >>Yeah. Scott said before, right, he had 100 times more data than he ever has before. And that's again, if you look at all the companies we talked to around the world, it's not about the amount of data that they have. That is the problem is the ability to access that data that data for most companies is trapped across Silas across the organization. It's It's in data applications, systems of records. Some of that data sits with your partners that you want access, and that's really what the data clouds camps in. Data Cloud is really mobilizing that data for you. It brings all that data together for you in one place so you can finally access that data and really provide ubiquitous access to that data to everyone in your organization that needs it and can truly unlock the value off that data. And from a marketing perspective, I mean, we are responsible for the customer experience, you know, we provide to our customers. And if you have access toe all the data on your customers, that's when you have that customer 3 60 that we've all been talking about for so many years. And if you have all that data, you can truly, you know, look at their, you know, buying behaviors, put all those dots together and create those exceptional customer experiences. You can do things such as the retailers do in terms of personal decision, for instance, rights and those are the type of experiences in our customers are expecting today. They are expecting a 100% personalized experience for them all the time. And if you don't have all the data, you can't really put those experiences together at scale. And that is really where the data cloud comes in again. The data cloud is not only about mobilizing your own data within your enterprise. It's also about having access to data from your partners or extending access to your own data in a secure way to your partners within your ecosystems. >>Yeah, So I'm glad you mentioned a couple of things. I've been writing about this a lot, and particularly the 3 60 that we would dying for but haven't really been able to tap. I didn't call it the Data Cloud. I don't have a marketing gene. I had another sort of boring name for it, but I think there's, you know, similar vectors there. So I appreciate that. Scott, I wanna come back to this notion of building data DNA in your marketing, you know, fluency on and how you put data at the core of your marketing ops. I've been working with a lot of folks in banking and manufacturing and other industries that air that are struggling to do this. How are you doing it? What are some of the challenges that you can share and maybe some advice for your peers out there? >>Yeah, sure, it's, um Well, you brought up this concept of data fluency and it zone important one. And there's been a lot of talking industry about data literacy and being able to read data. But I think it's more important to be able to speak data to be fluent. And as marketers, we're all storytellers. And when you combine data with storytelling, magic happens. And so getting a data fluency is a great goal for us toe have for all of the people in our companies. And to get to that end, I think one of the things that's happening is that people are hiring wrong and they're thinking about it. They're making some mistakes. And so a couple of things come to mind when, especially when I look at marketing teams that I'm familiar with, they're hiring a lot of data analysts and data scientists, and those folks are amazing and every team needs them. Uh, but if you go to big on that, you do yourself a disservice. The second key thing is that you're basically giving your front lines, focus your marketing managers or people on the front lines. An excuse not to get involved data. And I think that's a big mistake because it used to be really hard. But with the technologies available to us now, these new consumer like experiences for Data Analytics, anybody can do it. And so we as leaders have to encourage them to do it. And I'll give you just a you know, an example. You know, I've got about 32 people on my marketing team, and I don't have any data analysts on my team across our entire company. We have a couple of analysts and a couple of data engineers, and what's happening is the world is changing where those folks, their enablers, they architect the system, they bring in the different status forces they use. Technologies like snowflake has been so great at making it easier for people. The folks technology together, and they get data out of it quickly. But they're pulling it together, and then we'll simple things like, Hey, I just want to see this weekly instead of monthly. You don't need to waste your expensive data science talent. Gartner puts a stand out there that 50% of data scientists are doing basic visualization work. That's not a good use of their time. You The products are >>easy >>enough now that everyday marketing managers could do that. And when you have a marketing manager come to you and say, You know, I just figured out this this campaign, which looks great on the surface, is doing poorly. From our perspective, that's a magic moment. And so we all need to coach our teams to get there. And I would say, you know, lead by example, give them an opportunity Thio access data and turn it into a story that's really powerful. And then, lastly, praised people who do it, use it as something to celebrate inside our companies is a great way to kind of get this initiative. >>E love it. You're talking about democratizing data, making it self service. People feel ownership, you know, Laura did. He starts talking about the ecosystem, and you're kind of the ecosystem pro here. How does the ecosystem help marketers succeed? Maybe you could talk about the power of many versus the resource of of one. >>Sure, you know, I think it's a it's a game changer and it will continue to be. And I think it's really the next level for marketers to harness this. This power that's out there and use it. You know, it's something that's important to us. But it's also something we're starting to see our customers demand, you know, we went from a one size fits all solution, Thio. They want to bring the best in class to their organization. We all need to be really agile and flexible right now. And I think this ecosystem allows that, you know, you think about the power of a snow plate snowflake mining data for you, and then a thought spot really giving you the dashboard toe, have what you want. And then, of course, um, implementation partner like a whip Roh coming in and really being able to plug in whatever else you need, um, to deliver. And, uh, I think it's really super powerful. And I think it gives us, you know, it just gives us so much to play with. And so much room to grow is market. >>Thank you. Did he say why don't you bring us home? We're almost out of time here, but marketing, art, science both. What do you thoughts? >>Definite? Both. I think that's exciting. Part about marketing. It is a balancing act between art and science. Clearly, it's problem or science today than it used to be. But the art part is really about inspiring change. It's about changing people's people's behavior and challenging the status quo, right? That's the art part. The science part. That's about making the right decisions all the time, right? Making sure we are truly investing in what's gonna drive revenue for us. >>Guys, thanks so much for coming on the Cube. Great discussion. Really appreciate it. Thank you for watching everybody. We're here at the data clouds summit. A lot of great content, so keep it right there. We'll be right back right after this short break.

>> Narrator: Hi, everyone, thanks for joining us today for the Virtual Vertica BDC 2020. Today's breakout session is entitled toward Zero Unplanned Downtime of Medical Imaging Systems using Big Data. My name is Sue LeClaire, Director of Marketing at Vertica, and I'll be your host for this webinar. Joining me is Mauro Barbieri, lead architect of analytics at Philips. Before we begin, I want to encourage you to submit questions or comments during the virtual session. You don't have to wait. Just type your question or comment in the question box below the slides and click Submit. There will be a Q&A session at the end of the presentation. And we'll answer as many questions as we're able to during that time. Any questions that we don't get to we'll do our best to answer them offline. Alternatively, you can also visit the vertical forums to post your question there after the session. Our engineering team is planning to join the forums to keep the conversation going. Also a reminder that you can maximize your screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of the slide. And yes, this virtual session is being recorded, and we'll be available to view on demand this week. We'll send you a notification as soon as it's ready. So let's get started. Mauro, over to you. >> Thank you, good day everyone. So medical imaging systems such as MRI scanners, interventional guided therapy machines, CT scanners, the XR system, they need to provide hospitals, optimal clinical performance but also predictable cost of ownership. So clinicians understand the need for maintenance of these devices, but they just want to be non intrusive and scheduled. And whenever there is a problem with the system, the hospital suspects Philips services to resolve it fast and and the first interaction with them. In this presentation you will see how we are using big data to increase the uptime of our medical imaging systems. I'm sure you have heard of the company Phillips. Phillips is a company that was founded in 129 years ago in actually 1891 in Eindhoven in Netherlands, and they started by manufacturing, light bulbs, and other electrical products. The two brothers Gerard and Anton, they took an investment from their father Frederik, and they set up to manufacture and sale light bulbs. And as you may know, a key technology for making light bulbs is, was glass and vacuum. So when you're good at making glass products and vacuum and light bulbs, then there is an easy step to start making radicals like they did but also X ray tubes. So Philips actually entered very early in the market of medical imaging and healthcare technology. And this is what our is our core as a company, and it's also our future. So, healthcare, I mean, we are in a situation now in which everybody recognize the importance of it. And and we see incredible trends in a transition from what we call Volume Based Healthcare to Value Base, where, where the clinical outcomes are driving improvements in the healthcare domain. Where it's not enough to respond to healthcare challenges, but we need to be involved in preventing and maintaining the population wellness and from a situation in which we episodically are in touch with healthcare we need to continuously monitor and continuously take care of populations. And from healthcare facilities and technology available to a few elected and reach countries we want to make health care accessible to everybody throughout the world. And this of course, has poses incredible challenges. And this is why we are transforming the Philips to become a healthcare technology leader. So from Philips has been a concern realizing and active in many sectors in many sectors and realizing what kind of technologies we've been focusing on healthcare. And we have been transitioning from creating and selling products to making solutions to addresses ethical challenges. And from selling boxes, to creating long term relationships with our customers. And so, if you have known the Philips brand from from Shavers from, from televisions to light bulbs, you probably now also recognize the involvement of Philips in the healthcare domain, in diagnostic imaging, in ultrasound, in image guided therapy and systems, in digital pathology, non invasive ventilation, as well as patient monitoring intensive care, telemedicine, but also radiology, cardiology and oncology informatics. Philips has become a powerhouse of healthcare technology. To give you an idea of this, these are the numbers for, from 2019 about almost 20 billion sales, 4% comparable sales growth with respect to the previous year and about 10% of the sales are reinvested in R&D. This is also shown in the number of patents rights, last year we filed more than 1000 patents in, in the healthcare domain. And the company is about 80,000 employees active globally in over 100 countries. So, let me focus now on the type of products that are in the scope of this presentation. This is a Philips Magnetic Resonance Imaging Scanner, also called Ingenia 3.0 Tesla is an incredible machine. Apart from being very beautiful as you can see, it's a it's a very powerful technology. It can make high resolution images of the human body without harmful radiation. And it's a, it's a, it's a complex machine. First of all, it's massive, it weights 4.6 thousand kilograms. And it has superconducting magnets cooled with liquid helium at -269 degrees Celsius. And it's actually full of software millions and millions of lines of code. And it's occupied three rooms. What you see in this picture, the examination room, but there is also a technical room which is full of of of equipment of custom hardware, and machinery that is needed to operate this complex device. This is another system, it's an interventional, guided therapy system where the X ray is used during interventions with the patient on the table. You see on the left, what we call C-arm, a robotic arm that moves and can take images of the patient while it's been operated, it's used for cardiology intervention, neurological intervention, cardiovascular intervention. There's a table that moves in very complex ways and it again it occupies two rooms, this room that we see here and but also a room full of cabinets and hardwood and computers. This is another another characteristic of this machine is that it has to operate it as it is used during medical interventions, and so it has to interact with all kind of other equipment. This is another system it's a, it's a, it's a Computer Tomography Scanner Icon which is a unique, it is unique due to its special detection technology. It has an image resolution up to 0.5 millimeters and making thousand by thousand pixel images. And it is also a complex machine. This is a picture of the inside of a compatible device not really an icon, but it has, again three rotating, which waits two and a half turn. So, it's a combination of X ray tube on top, high voltage generators to power the extra tube and in a ray of detectors to create the images. And this rotates at 220 right per minutes, making 50 frames per second to make 3D reconstruction of the of the body. So a lot of technology, complex technology and this technology is made for this situation. We make it for clinicians, who are busy saving people lives. And of course, they want optimal clinical performance. They want the best technology to treat the patients. But they also want predictable cost of ownership. They want predictable system operations. They want their clinical schedules not interrupted. So, they understand these machines are complex full of technology. And these machines may have, may require maintenance, may require software update, sometimes may even say they require some parts, horrible parts to be replaced, but they don't want to have it unplanned. They don't want to have unplanned downtime. They would hate send, having to send patients home and to have to reschedule visits. So they understand maintenance. They just want to have a schedule predictable and non intrusive. So already a number of years ago, we started a transition from what we call Reactive Maintenance services of these devices to proactive. So, let me show you what we mean with this. Normally, if a system has an issue system on the field, and traditional reactive workflow would be that, this the customer calls a call center, reports the problem. The company servicing the device would dispatch a field service engineer, the field service engineer would go on site, do troubleshooting, literally smell, listen to noise, watch for lights, for, for blinking LEDs or other unusual issues and would troubleshoot the issue, find the root cause and perhaps decide that the spare part needs to be replaced. He would order a spare part. The part would have to be delivered at the site. Either immediately or the engineer would would need to come back another day when the part is available, perform the repair. That means replacing the parts, do all the needed tests and validations. And finally release the system for clinical use. So as you can see, there is a lot of, there are a lot of steps, and also handover of information from one to between different people, between different organizations even. Would it be better to actually keep monitoring the installed base, keep observing the machine and actually based on the information collected, detect or predict even when an issue is is going to happen? And then instead of reacting to a customer calling, proactively approach the customer scheduling, preventive service, and therefore avoid the problem. So this is actually what we call Corrective Service. And this is what we're being transitioning to using Big Data and Big Data is just one ingredient. In fact, there are more things that are needed. The devices themselves need to be designed for reliability and predictability. If the device is a black box does not communicate to the outside world the status, if it does not transmit data, then of course, it is not possible to observe and therefore, predict issues. This of course requires a remote service infrastructure or an IoT infrastructure as it is called nowadays. The passivity to connect the medical device with a data center in enterprise infrastructure, collect the data and perform the remote troubleshooting and the predictions. Also the right processes and the right organization is to be in place, because an organization that is, you know, waiting for the customer to call and then has a number of few service engineers available and a certain amount of spare parts and stock is a different organization from an organization that actually is continuously observing the installed base and is scheduling actions to prevent issues. And in other pillar is knowledge management. So in order to realize predictive models and to have predictive service action, it's important to manage knowledge about failure modes, about maintenance procedures very well to have it standardized and digitalized and available. And last but not least, of course, the predictive models themselves. So we talked about transmitting data from the installed base on the medical device, to an enterprise infrastructure that would analyze the data and generate predictions that's predictive models are exactly the last ingredient that is needed. So this is not something that I'm, you know, I'm telling you for the first time is actually a strategic intent of Philips, where we aim for zero unplanned downtime. And we market it that way. We also is not a secret that we do it by using big data. And, of course, there could be other methods to to achieving the same goal. But we started using big data already now well, quite quite many years ago. And one of the reasons is that our medical devices already are wired to collect lots of data about the functioning. So they collect events, error logs that are sensor connecting sensor data. And to give you an idea, for example, just as an order of magnitudes of size of the data, the one MRI scanner can log more than 1 million events per day, hundreds of thousands of sensor readings and tens of thousands of many other data elements. And so this is truly big data. On the other hand, this data was was actually not designed for predictive maintenance, you have to think a medical device of this type of is, stays in the field for about 10 years. Some a little bit longer, some of it's shorter. So these devices have been designed 10 years ago, and not necessarily during the design, and not all components were designed, were designed with predictive maintenance in mind with IoT, and with the latest technology at that time, you know, progress, will not so forward looking at the time. So the actual the key challenge is taking the data which is already available, which is already logged by the medical devices, integrating it and creating predictive models. And if we dive a little bit more into the research challenges, this is one of the Challenges. How to integrate diverse data sources, especially how to automate the costly process of data provisioning and cleaning? But also, once you have the data, let's say, how to create these models that can predict failures and the degradation of performance of a single medical device? Once you have these models and alerts, another challenge is how to automatically recommend service actions based on the probabilistic information on these possible failures? And once you have the insights even if you can recommend action still recommending an action should be done with the goal of planning, maintenance, for generating value. That means balancing costs and benefits, preventing unplanned downtimes without of course scheduling and unnecessary interventions because every intervention, of course, is a disruption for the clinical schedule. And there are many more applications that can be built off such as the optimal management of spare parts supplies. So how do you approach this problem? Our approach was to collect into one database Vertica. A large amount of historical data, first of all historical data coming from the medical devices, so event logs, parameter value system configuration, sensor readings, all the data that we have at our disposal, that in the same database together with records of failures, maintenance records, service work orders, part replacement contracts, so basically the evidence of failures and once you have data from the medical devices, and data from the failures in the same database, it becomes possible to correlate event logs, errors, signal sensor readings with records of failures and records of part replacement and maintenance operations. And we did that also with a specific approach. So we, we create integrated teams, and every integrated team at three figures, not necessarily three people, they were actually multiple people. But there was at least one business owner from a service organization. And this business owner is the person who knows what is relevant, which use case are relevant to solve for a particular type of product or a particular market. What basically is generating value or is worthwhile tackling as an organization. And we have data scientists, data scientists are the one who actually can manipulate data. They can write the queries, they can write the models and robust statistics. They can create visualization and they are the ones who really manipulate the data. Last but not least, very important is subject matter experts. Subject Matter Experts are the people who know the failure modes, who know about the functioning of the medical devices, perhaps they're even designed, they come from the design side, or they come from the service innovation side or even from the field. People who have been servicing the machines in real life for many, many years. So, they are familiar with the failure models, but also familiar with the type of data that is logged and the processes and how actually the systems behave, if you if you if you if you allow me in, in the wild in the in the field. So the combination of these three secrets was a key. Because data scientist alone, just statisticians basically are people who can all do machine learning. And they're not very effective because the data is too complicated. That's why you more than too complex, so they will spend a huge amount of time just trying to figure out the data. Or perhaps they will spend the time in tackling things that are useless, because it's such an interesting knows much quicker which data points are useful, which phenomenon can be found in the data or probably not found. So the combination of subject matter experts and data scientists is very powerful and together gathered by a business owner, we could tackle the most useful use cases first. So, this teams set up to work and they developed three things mainly, first of all, they develop insights on the failure modes. So, by looking at the data, and analyzing information about what happened in the field, they find out exactly how things fail in a very pragmatic and quantitative way. Also, they of course, set up to develop the predictive model with associated alerts and service actions. And a predictive model is just not an alert is just not a flag. Just not a flag, only flag that turns on like a like a traffic light, you know, but there's much more than that. It's such an alert is to be interpreted and used by highly skilled and trained engineer, for example, in a in a call center, who needs to evaluate that error and plan a service action. Service action may involve the ordering a replacement of an expensive part, it may involve calling up the customer hospital and scheduling a period of downtime, downtime to replace a part. So it has an impact on the clinical practice, could have an impact. So, it is important that the alert is coupled with sufficient evidence and information for such a highly skilled trained engineer to plan the service session efficiently. So, it's it's, it's a lot of work in terms of preparing data, preparing visualizations, and making sure that old information is represented correctly and in a compact form. Additionally, These teams develop, get insight into the failure modes and so they can provide input to the R&D organization to improve the products. So, to summarize these graphically, we took a lot of historical data from, coming from the medical devices from the history but also data from relational databases, where the service, work orders, where the part replacement, the contact information, we integrated it, and we set up to the data analytics. From there we don't have value yet, only value starts appearing when we use the insights of data analytics the model on live data. When we process live data with the module we can generate alerts, and the alerts can be used to plan the maintenance and the maintenance therefore the plant maintenance replaces replacing downtime is creating value. To give an idea of the, of the type of I cannot show you the details of these modules, all of these predictive models. But to give you an idea, this is just a picture of some of the components of our medical device for which we have models for which we have, for which we call the failure modes, hard disk, clinical grade monitoring, monitors, X ray tubes, and so forth. This is for MRI machines, a lot of custom hardware and other types of amplifiers and electronics. The alerts are then displayed in a in a dashboard, what we call a Remote monitoring dashboard. We have a team of remote monitoring engineers that basically surveyors the install base, looks at this dashboard picks up these alerts. And an alert as I said before is not just one flag, it contains a lot of information about the failure and about the medical device. And the remote monitor engineer basically will pick up these alerts, they review them and they create cases for the markets organization to handle. So, they see an alert coming in they create a case. So that the particular call center in in some country can call the customer and schedule and make an appointment to schedule a service action or it can add it preventive action to the schedule of the field service engineer who's already supposed to go to visit the customer for example. This is a picture and high-level picture of the overall data person architecture. On the bottom we have install base install base is formed by all our medical devices that are connected to our Philips and more service network. Data is transmitted in a in a secure and in a secure way to our enterprise infrastructure. Where we have a so called Data Lake, which is basically an archive where we store the data as it comes from, from the customers, it is scrubbed and protected. From there, we have a processes ETL, Extract, Transform and Load that in parallel, analyze this information, parse all these files and all this data and extract the relevant parameters. All this, the reason is that the data coming from the medical device is very verbose, and in legacy formats, sometimes in binary formats in strange legacy structures. And therefore, we parse it and we structure it and we make it magically usable by data science teams. And the results are stored in a in a vertica cluster, in a data warehouse. In the same data warehouse, where we also store information from other enterprise systems from all kinds of databases from SQL, Microsoft SQL Server, Tera Data SAP from Salesforce obligations. So, the enterprise IT system also are connected to vertica the data is inserted into vertica. And then from vertica, the data is pulled by our predictive models, which are Python and Rscripts that run on our proprietary environment helps with insights. From this proprietary environment we generate the alerts which are then used by the remote monitoring application. It's not the only application this is the case of remote monitoring. We also have applications for particular remote service. So whenever we cannot prevent or predict we cannot predict an issue from happening or we cannot prevent an issue from happening and we need to react on a customer call, then we can still use the data to very quickly troubleshoot the system, find the root cause and advice or the best service session. Additionally, there are reliability dashboards because all this data can also be used to perform reliability studies and improve the design of the medical devices and is used by R&D. And the access is with all kinds of tools. So Vertica gives the flexibility to connect with JDBC to connect dashboards using Power BI to create dashboards and click view or just simply use RM Python directly to perform analytics. So little summary of the, of the size of the data for the for the moment we have integrated about 500 terabytes worth of data tables, about 30 trillion data points. More than eighty different data sources. For our complete connected install base, including our customer relation management system SAP, we also have connected, we have integrated data from from the factory for repair shops, this is very useful because having information from the factory allows to characterize components and devices when they are new, when they are still not used. So, we can model degradation, excuse me, predict failures much better. Also, we have many years of historical data and of course 24/7 live feeds. So, to get all this going, we we have chosen very simple designs from the very beginning this was developed in the back the first system in 2015. At that time, we went from scratch to production eight months and is also very stable system. To achieve that, we apply what we call Exhaustive Error Handling. When you process, most of people attending this conference probably know when you are dealing with Big Data, you have probably you face all kinds of corner cases you feel that will never happen. But just because of the sheer volume of the data, you find all kinds of strange things. And that's what you need to take care of, if you want to have a stable, stable platform, stable data pipeline. Also other characteristic is that, we need to handle live data, but also be able to, we need to be able to reprocess large historical datasets, because insights into the data are getting generated over time by the team that is using the data. And very often, they find not only defects, but also they have changed requests for new data to be extracted to distract in a different way to be aggregated in a different way. So basically, the platform is continuously crunching data. Also, components have built-in monitoring capabilities. Transparent transparency builds trust by showing how the platform behaves. People actually trust that they are having all the data which is available, or if they don't see the data or if something is not functioning they can see why and where the processing has stopped. A very important point is documentation of data sources every data point as a so called Data Provenance Fields. That is not only the medical device where it comes from, with all this identifier, but also from which file, from which moment in time, from which row, from which byte offset that data point comes. This allows to identify and not only that, but also when this data point was created, by whom, by whom meaning which version of the platform and of the ETL created a data point. This allows us to identify issues and also to fix only the subset of when an issue is identified and fixed. It's possible then to fix only subset of the data that is impacted by that issue. Again, this grid trusts in data to essential for this type of applications. We actually have different environments in our analytic solution. One that we call data science environment is more or less what I've shown so far, where it's deployed in our Philips private cloud, but also can be deployed in in in public cloud such as Amazon. It contains the years of historical data, it allows interactive data exploration, human queries, therefore, it is a highly viable load. It is used for the training of machine learning algorithms and this design has been such that we it is for allowing rapid prototyping and for large data volumes. In other environments is the so called Production Environment where we actually score the models with live data from generation of the alerts. So this environment does not require years of data just months, because a model to make a prediction does not need necessarily years of data, but maybe some model even a couple of weeks or a few months, three months, six months depending on the type of data on the failure which has been predicted. And this has highly optimized queries because the applications are stable. It only only change when we deploy new models or new versions of the models. And it is designed optimized for low latency, high throughput and reliability is no human intervention, no human queries. And of course, there are development staging environments. And one of the characteristics. Another characteristic of all this work is that what we call Data Driven Service Innovation. In all this work, we use the data in every step of the process. The First business case creation. So, basically, some people ask how did you manage to find the unlocked investment to create such a platform and to work on it for years, you know, how did you start? Basically, we started with a business case and the business case again for that we use data. Of course, you need to start somewhere you need to have some data, but basically, you can use data to make a quantitative analysis of the current situation and also make it as accurate as possible estimate quantitative of value creation, if you have that basically, is you can justify the investments and you can start building. Next to that data is used to decide where to focus your efforts. In this case, we decided to focus on the use cases that had the maximum estimated business impact, with business impact meaning here, customer value, as well as value for the company. So we want to reduce unplanned downtime, we want to give value to our customers. But it would be not sustainable, if for creating value, we would start replacing, you know, parts without any consideration for the cost of it. So it needs to be sustainable. Also, then we use data to analyze the failure modes to actually do digging into the data understanding of things fail, for visualization, and to do reliability analysis. And of course, then data is a key to do feature engineering for the development of the predictive models for training the models and for the validation with historical data. So data is all over the place. And last but not least, again, these models is architecture generates new data about the alerts and about the how good the alerts are, and how well they can predict failures, how much downtime is being saved, how money issues have been prevented. So this also data that needs to be analyzed and provides insights on the performance of this, of this models and can be used to improve the models found. And last but not least, once you have performance of the models you can use data to, to quantify as much as possible the value which is created. And it is when you go back to the first step, you made the business value you you create the first business case with estimates. Can you, can you actually show that you are creating value? And the more you can, have this fitness feedback loop closed and quantify the better it is for having more and more impact. Among the key elements that are needed for realizing this? So I want to mention one about data documentation is the practice that we started already six years ago is proven to be very valuable. We document always how data is extracted and how it is stored in, in data model documents. Data Model documents specify how data goes from one place to the other, in this case from device logs, for example, to a table in vertica. And it includes things such as the finish of duplicates, queries to check for duplicates, and of course, the logical design of the tables below the physical design of the table and the rationale. Next to it, there is a data dictionary that explains for each column in the data model from a subject matter expert perspective, what that means, such as its definition and meaning is if it's, if it's a measurement, the use of measure and the range. Or if it's a, some sort of, of label the spec values, or whether the value is raw or or calculated. This is essential for maximizing the value of data for allowing people to use data. Last but not least, also an ETL design document, it explains how the transformation has happened from the source to the destination including very important the failure and the strategy. For example, when you cannot parse part of a file, should you load only what you can parse or drop the entire file completely? So, import best effort or do all or nothing or how to populate records for which there is no value what are the default values and you know, how to have the data is normalized or transform and also to avoid duplicates. This again is very important to provide to the users of the data, if full picture of all the data itself. And this is not just, this the formal process the documents are reviewed and approved by all the stakeholders into the subject matter experts and also the data scientists from a function that we have started called Data Architect. So to, this is something I want to give about, oh, yeah and of course the the documents are available to the end users of the data. And we even have links with documents of the data warehouse. So if you are, if you get access to the database, and you're doing your research and you see a table or a view, you think, well, it could be that could be interesting. It looks like something I could use for my research. Well, the data itself has a link to the document. So from the database while you're exploring data, you can retrieve a link to the place where the document is available. This is just the quick summary of some of the of the results that I'm allowed to share at this moment. This is about image guided therapy, using our remote service infrastructure for remotely connected system with the right contracts. We can achieve we have we have reduced downtime by 14% more than one out of three of cases are resolved remotely without an engineer having to go outside. 82% is the first time right fixed rate that means that the issue is fixed either remotely or if a visit at the site is needed, that visit only one visit is needed. So at that moment, the engineer we decided the right part and fix this straightaway. And this result on average on 135 hours more operational availability per year. This therefore, the ability to treat more patients for the same costs. I'd like to conclude with citing some nice testimonials from some of our customers, showing that the value that we've created is really high impact and this concludes my presentation. Thanks for your attention so far. >> Thank you Morrow, very interesting. And we've got a number of questions that we that have come in. So let's get to them. The first one, how many devices has Philips connected worldwide? And how do you determine which related center data workloads get analyzed with protocols? >> Okay, so this is just two questions. So the first question how many devices are connected worldwide? Well, actually, I'm not allowed to tell you the precise number of connected devices worldwide, but what I can tell is that we are in the order of tens of thousands of devices. And of all types actually. And then, how would we determine which related sensor gets analyzed with vertica well? And a little bit how I set In the in the presentation is a combination of two approaches is a data driven approach and the knowledge driven approach. So a knowledge driven approach because we make maximum use of our knowledge of the failure modes, and the behavior of the medical devices and of their components to select what we think are promising data points and promising features. However, from that moment on data science kicks in, and it's actually data science is used to look at the actual data and come up with quantitative information of what is really happening. So, it could be that an expert is convinced that the particular range of value of a sensor are indicative of a particular failure. And it turns out that maybe it was too optimistic on the other way around that in practice, there are many other situations situation he was not aware of. That could happen. So thanks to the data, then we, you know, get a better understanding of the phenomenon and we get the better modeling. I bet I answered that, any question? >> Yeah, we have another question. Do you have plans to perform any analytics at the edge? >> Now that's a good question. So I can't disclose our plans on this right now, but at the edge devices are certainly one of the options we look at to help our customers towards Zero Unplanned Downtime. Not only that, but also to facilitate the integration of our solution with existing and future hospital IT infrastructure. I mean, we're talking about advanced security, privacy and guarantee that the data is always safe remains. patient data and clinical data remains does not go outside the parameters of the hospital of course, while we want to enhance our functionality provides more value with our services. Yeah, so edge definitely very interesting area of innovation. >> Another question, what are the most helpful vertica features that you rely on? >> I would say, the first that comes to mind, to me at this moment is ease of integration. Basically, with vertica, we will be able to load any data source in a very easy way. And also it really can be interfaced very easily with old type of ions as an application. And this, of course, is not unique to vertica. Nevertheless, the added value here is that this is coupled with an incredible speed, incredible speed for loading and for querying. So it's basically a very versatile tool to innovate fast for data science, because basically we do not end up another thing is multiple projections, advanced encoding and compression. So this allows us to perform the optimizations only when we need it and without having to touch applications or queries. So if we want to achieve high performance, we Basically spend a little effort on improving the projection. And now we can achieve very often dramatic increases in performance. Another feature is EO mode. This is great for for cloud for cloud deployment. >> Okay, another question. What is the number one lesson learned that you can share? >> I think that would my advice would be document control your entire data pipeline, end to end, create positive feedback loops. So I hear that what I hear often is that enterprises I mean Philips is one of them that are not digitally native. I mean, Philips is 129 years old as a company. So you can imagine the the legacy that we have, we will not, you know, we are not born with Web, like web companies are with with, you know, with everything online and everything digital. So enterprises that are not digitally native, sometimes they struggle to innovate in big data or into to do data driven innovation, because, you know, the data is not available or is in silos. Data is controlled by different parts of the organ of the organization with different processes. There is not as a super strong enterprise IT system, providing all the data, you know, for everybody with API's. So my advice is to, to for the very beginning, a creative creating as soon as possible, an end to end solution, from data creation to consumption. That creates value for all the stakeholders of the data pipeline. It is important that everyone in the data pipeline from the producer of the data to the to the consumers, basically in order to pipeline everybody gets a piece of value, piece of the cake. When the value is proven to all stakeholders, everyone would naturally contribute to keep the data pipeline running, and to keep the quality of the data high. That's the students there. >> Yeah, thank you. And in the area of machine learning, what types of innovations do you plan to adopt to help with your data pipeline? >> So, in the error of machine learning, we're looking at things like automatically detecting the deterioration of models to trigger improvement action, as well as connected with active learning. Again, focused on improving the accuracy of our predictive models. So active learning is when the additional human intervention labeling of difficult cases is triggered. So the machine learning classifier may not be able to, you know, classify correctly all the time and instead of just randomly picking up some cases for a human to review, you, you want the costly humans to only review the most valuable cases, from a machine learning point of view, the ones that would contribute the most in improving the classifier. Another error is is deep learning and was not working on it, I mean, but but also applications of more generic anomaly detection algorithms. So the challenge of anomaly detection is that we are not only interested in finding anomalies but also in the recommended proper service actions. Because without a proper service action, and alert generated because of an anomaly, the data loses most of its value. So, this is where I think we, you know. >> Go ahead. >> No, that's, that's it, thanks. >> Okay, all right. So that's all the time that we have today for questions. I want to thank the audience for attending Mauro's presentation and also for your questions. If you weren't able to, if we weren't able to answer your question today, I'd ask let we'll let you know that we'll respond via email. And again, our engineers will be at the vertica, on the vertica quorums awaiting your other questions. It would help us greatly if you could give us some feedback and rate the session before you sign off. Your rating will help us guide us as when we're looking at content to provide for the next vertica BTC. Also, note that a replay of today's event and a PDF copy of the slides will be available on demand, we'll let you know when that'll be by email hopefully later this week. And of course, we invite you to share the content with your colleagues. Again, thank you for your participation today. This includes this breakout session and hope you have a wonderful day. Thank you. >> Thank you

>> Narrator: Live, from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high-tech coverage, It's theCUBE! Covering VMworld 2019. Brought to you by VMware, and its ecosystem partners. >> And, welcome back here on theCUBE, we're at the Moscone Center here at downtown San Francisco. Gorgeous day outside, by the way. Picture perfect day. Chamber of Commerce weather, but a lot of big news happening inside here for VMworld 2019, along with John Troyer. I'm John Walls, we're joined by Pierluca Chiodelli, who's the Vice President of Product Management at Dell EMC. And, Pierluca, good to see you, Sir. >> Thank you, it's awesome to be here. >> Great, thanks for being here. And Muneyb Minhazuddin, whose the VP of solutions product marketing at VMware. And Muneyb, I know you're right just hot off the presentation stage. >> Yes I am. >> Catch your breath, it's all going to be fine. How was your audience? I'm sure standing remotely. >> Yeah, it was thirteen hundred plus >> Excellent, yeah. Been a big week, already. >> Of course it has, yeah. >> For you and your team. So, first off, let me just, let's step back, talk about the vibe of the show, the theme of the show we saw Pat on the stage. >> Muneyb: Perfect. >> About an hour and a half this morning, just your thoughts about day one and the big announcements that VMware's been making. >> It's been a great week, and it's actually been a great approaching week. As you know, on Thursday we announced intent and acquire both Pivotal and Carbon Black for close to about $5,000,000,000. So, that's, kind of a big announcement by itself, and then how do you kind of bring in and keep day one where you're not too focused on those two, but get the narrative of VMworld across. And really, you know, where we have, you know, CUBE has been with us on this journey for a long time. >> Right. >> We've seen that data center shift into kind of two tangents. One is, you know, workloads into data center break out into public clouds. Second, rerouting into cloud native applications. And, if you've seen our strategy wall when that was kind of the key messages. Hey, we're embracing both the modern app development, the focus on Kubernetes and Tanzoo announcement, was all about to say, "VMware platforms ready "for the breakout of both tangents." First, Cloud Native, we've got Kubernetes, we're bringing it right into vSphere, so that everybody in the audience can support it. Second, the breadth of our cloud everywhere, right, so, we've gone from Amazon to IBM to Google to Ajour. So, it'll give you the infrastructure for your workloads to be your choice. Modernize or migrate. (chuckles) That was a key message for us to kind of land today. For a lot of our audience who are kind of stuck in that same piece of, "What am I doing with my workloads? "What is that platform I got to build on?" And, you know, the key foundational platform being VMware Cloud Foundation. Right, that was our strategy, and I think last year we called out VMware Cloud Foundation in Pat's keynote, because I wrote it 44 times. (laughs) (group laughter) We didn't do it that many times, this time. We only said that's the platform that lands in Amazon, GCP, Ajour, IBM, and 4,200, you know, cloud provider partners. That gives you really that public cloud extension. The second part being modern apps, Kubernetes is a new, kind of, modern app development platform, vSphere is embedded into that project pacific and the whole Tanzoo announcement, right? So, really, a powerful message, what do you think? Was that successfully landed? >> I think so. John, do you feel good about what you heard today? >> Yeah, absolutely, I think VCF is super interesting. I'm also kind of, so there was an announcement today also about the Dell Technologies Cloud Validated Designs for using VCF. So, VCF the layer, which is kind of the VMware stack with some extra magic in it, that can be in, can make a private hybrid cloud, you know, everywhere. So, talk to us a little bit about Dell Technologies Cloud. As I call it, "DTC." The, it's a lot, there's a lot of stuff in that as well, so, but we have two very complicated solutions stacks that are, we're talking about now, so. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Can you talk a little bit about the validated design and what came out of that? >> Absolutely, so before we go into the validated design, I think it's very important as Muneyb said. When we think about the Dell Technology Cloud, really, it's a component of the best (murmurs) technology from our storage, networking, and also compute, but we did the VMware VCS on top. So, we work very closely with VMware, and today we are announcing today the Cloud Validated Design. As we announce at the Dell Technology World in May, we said Dell Technology Cloud is this, now we want to tell to the people, how you can easily deploy this. What is make this tangible? So, what we are doing today is rapid time to value. We did design and pretested configuration, that we put in Dell Technologies Cloud Validated Design, as we said. The other important things as Muneyb said, right? It's... And, I heard this also from theCUBE. There was a debate with Stu and other people about, what is the Cloud? How I deploy the Cloud? When we think about Dell Technologies we speak with different peoples, and two set of peoples. One is the app, right? The Cloud app, all the app people that, they want to build have all the automation, DevOps operation and all these things. But, behind those people, there's still an infrastructure. So, we are speaking on both things. So, it's very important this paradigm is there, where you can have people that they can consume the technology, and understand how to build the infrastructure to be automated, and build that automation for the Cloud. So, that's what is the Dell Technologies Font Validation Design. Right. So, one of the biggest things here that we announced, is not only the Cloud Validation Design. It's the first one but also the ability to have compute, storage and network together, and also use it primary storage as a primary citizen of the VCF. So, we should talk about that later but that's-- >> Absolutely, and I think to catch onto that, you know, talking about the applications et cetera, you know, again, in the evolution of Cloud, and we've been on the journey for 10 years is, we've had, the first few years of the Cloud journey was, felt a little like a one way street, which was, kind of meant where people were shutting down data centers and going to all these public cloud providers, was always a one-way street. Now, VMware, and if you followed us closely, we had a service call VMware, you know VCHS, which is VMware Hybrid Cloud Service before the vCloud Air and then we came out with this solution, right? The idea was, we thought there's going to be movement back-and-forth but it wasn't the case. People were seriously shutting down and going one way. As we made all these partnerships of you know, Amazon, IBM, we started seeing, and you heard stories of IHS, Freddie Mac on stage where they take six weeks to move 100 applications one way into the Cloud, customers started asking us some questions, say, 'If it's so easy to go that way, is it also that easy to bring it back?' >> Come back! >> Right? And, that kind of lead to the whole kind of Dell partnership, Dell announcement within the Dell Cloud Foundation, you know, VMware Cloud Foundation, Dell Technologies Cloud Platform to say that, "Hey, it's actually..." There's a notion of not going from hardware-specific, you know, just high-tuned for workloads to commodity hardware in the Public Cloud. There's now a need for having common hardware platform on both on-PRAM, off-PRAM because there is a need for customers to take EC2 workloads or, you know, Ajour workloads and bring it on PRAM again. That was just a notion of how fast it is. I add that point because it is so critical to know that your hardware is performing in tuned, to perform for a high business critical applications. People forgot about them the first few phases of going to the Cloud, and now as they think about a hybrid, true hybrid Cloud nature, they want optimal performance in the software layer, in the hardware layer. You know, hence our announcement of Dell Technologies Cloud, Cloud Foundation, Validated Design. It's really supporting that customer notion. >> So, it's like this optimal, or maximized flexibility is what you're trying to give people. I mean, is that-- >> Pierluca: With the Cloud simplicity, that's really the key. >> But what drives that? I know that you have, you've, you know, whether you're on-PRAM or you're off-PRAM, you're going to decide what workload's going to go on what space on, so forth, but is some of that kind of hedging bets for future workloads because you can't predict where they're going to be done or where you want them done? Or is it just providing flexibility today, and let's not worry about tomorrow? You know, it just seems like there's a lot of runway here, if you will. >> Yeah, and I think there's no right or wrong answer. One of the big workshops I do with our customers is really kind of say have you figured out what's your three to five-year application strategy? Because again, in that first phase of that fast migration to the Public Cloud, people were just like CIOs I know, it's like, I have a cloud for strategy, what does that mean? I'm shutting down all data centers, I'm going to the Cloud. Right or wrong, and that's my Cloud First strategy. Now, what they've come to realize is not all workloads work effectively in the Cloud, right? So, they kind of like, hey, put an application strategy to say what are the most optimal applications that will get the benefit of Cloud? These are like, e-commerce retail. They have to have, you know, Black Friday, expanding elasticity. If you got no slow, mundane, you know backend processes doing batch processes of massive storage of in a bank ledger in the back end, they're not going to get that elasticity. I know what it is, I know how many, you know, batch processes I got to run. So, people are getting smarter about which ones get the benefit of, you know, modern app development, or Cloud elasticity, which ones don't really need to have that. So, we've seen best practice customers actually have a very good app strategy, three to five years, and then decide how much of my app strategy is gone to the right, you know, or gone to the left, right? It's pretty much to say, "I don't have to change." 60, 70% of my Eastern European customers, their banking ledgers are still on mainframes. They're not in a hurry to go to the Cloud, whereas, you know Fintech on the East Coast is going, "I'm going to the, I'm going to the Cloud", right? So, it's really that strategy that's, they should take the app strategy and decide what the infrastructure strategy is on the top shelf. >> I think from the storage business, we see that really clear, right? The app is definitely what is moving the things, right? It's not, people they're not thinking anymore because the transformation is in the way that you consume the infrastructure. They not thinking anymore about what I put there, but is about what app I need to run, how I build my app. So, it's the environment. And, I don't think personally I meet a lot of customer. There is not one right way or wrong way, it's an end, right? As you can see also in VCF we have Vsend, VxRail and primary storage. If you look at two years ago, we will be sitting here and say, you know, "It's only this, not the other things." When we, I been in governor conference, three years ago was like, it's all Cloud. It's reality is the world, the information technology world is always the same, where is a natural genius things. Because people, they need to have the trust, right? You cannot run your entire things on something that you don't know or you didn't prove. So, what we give here today with our technology is the flexibility. You can have a Cloud approach, but use the trusted PowerMax, for example, in conjunction with Vsend, in conjunction with the Unity. So, not all these is the proof that you can preserve your investment. But, is the proof that you can start to build those up. And, if you've seen what paths say today, then those app can live everywhere. So, you can go, you can move, it's much easier to move, and you can just trust what you're doing. >> And, you hit an important point on the move part, right? And, people are so easy, like, "Hey I moved a thousand applications in six weeks "to VMC and AWS." The fundamental notion where that was not possible before, was compute, network, storage. Like, we've been doing vSphere for a long time, you know that. And, it wasn't that easy because what used to happen is people thought, "Hey, a virtualized computer, I can move it." But, what did not happen as you moved that, was your databases, you know, your storage, rules didn't follow you into the Cloud. Your networking QOS and, you know, policies, and you know, priorities didn't follow you into the Cloud. So, that was kind of like, you know, you know, I'm an Australian, so it was a half-assed solution, right? (group laughing) So bear with my language, right. It was a half-assed solution, but really what needs to happen is your compute, your network, your storage has to all work together. And, that's where Cloud Foundation was powerful. And, what we're lighting with this Validated Designs is also that capability that your computer, or storage is one unit from a app. Once you package it and make it available in all the platforms, then that migration becomes six weeks, two weeks to move that. Because once you break it apart, it's a nightmare. There's not a lot of folks who have survived database migrations. (laughs) >> I mean maybe Pierluca, you can kind of sum us up here. This conversation's been a lot around evolution, right? And, there's also been an evolution of data center design and what to expect with that, you know, just buying things off the shelf and getting a Var and, you know, the VMAX, and we've been through this whole, and now, we've talked about VxRail, which can be part of this solution. But, can you talk, just, maybe, take us in, take us out with the, or into the future with the Dell Technologies Cloud as the idea of the Validated Design, the idea of this stack from Dell Technologies in storage et cetera, what can we expect in the near future? And, how much guidance will folks get? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, without breaking any NDA things, but this is only the first step. So, the Cloud Validated Design is just the first step where we said, 'Okay, we are tasked in this, "we putting this together." We are working very closely to also solve the entire things that VCF allow you to do first day deployment, allow you to expand the infrastructure, and allow you also to do life cycle management. For example, with the VxRail we already have the life cycle management part. We are working in way to do that also for our storage and other things. So, if you think about that then it becomes as you said, all the policy we put, like with Vworld, will be strategically in that sense, the policies can be carried over. So, then you can go to VMC, you can go to another place where the software and infrastructure can move back. So, because people can do this on PRAM, a replicate exactly but not only replicate the application, but replicate the (murmurs). What do you do on the QOS, all these key things that makes people running enterprise application, right? So that's, I think, it's very exciting moment. I think it's just the starting of this dream. >> Absolutely. >> Gentlemen, thanks for the time. >> Thank you. >> And you're all, you paint a pretty exciting future, don't ya? >> I hope so. >> So, I can't wait to look forward to even VMworld 2020? >> Wait 'til Barcelona, come on? (laughs) >> All right, well I'm not making that road trip, so unfortunately-- >> We going to more out there. >> But, Barcelona's going to be good. >> Yes, thank you for having us. >> No, I'm not the best guy, so, all right good. Hey, gentlemen, thank you for the time. >> Thank you >> Thank you. >> I appreciate it very much, great discussion. >> Thank you very much. >> Thanks for having us. >> Back with more from San Francisco right after this. (techno music)

>> live from Boston, Massachusetts. It's the Cube covering AWS Reinforce 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web service is and its ecosystem partners. Welcome >> back, everyone. Day two of live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts, for AWS Amazon Web services. Inaugural conference called Reinforce. This is a Cloud security conference, the first of its kind. It's the beginning of what we see as a new generation of shift in now new category called Cloud Security. Obviously, Cloud has been growing. Security equation is changing and evolving. I got a great guest here. Colby Alan, who's a platform architect at ZIP with based in Seattle. Great for joining us. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. So we're chatting before we came on about your journey and your Dev ops chops you guys have built over there that I want to get into that just quickly explain what you guys do real quick. Set the context. >> Yes, it is on SMS text messaging provider way Specialize in toll free messaging. We also texting able landline phone numbers. Our business is kind of really split into two parts way. Have you know your traditional Sadd's application that ran runs like a sad That's where you can, you know, have the you I thio interface your landline phone number eight under number With that messaging, no, top that We run a carrier grade network. So we have direct binds into all the major carriers in the U. S. Bringing online some Canadian carriers. That's really where the power of our platform and we own the network on DSO way started Nicolo and over the last last year, which has spent nine months moving all that into Amazon and >> forget about that. So explain the architecture. You guys move yet polos with network you moved to Amazon with three people. Just classic devils. A lot of hard work, I'm sure take us through what happened. What was the old environment? And now what does it look like now? >> Yeah, so, you know, when I just started with, you know, they were interesting place. They were just starting a huge growth. And so at that point, they existed in a few data centers in the U. S. And running the empire workloads on or bare metal databases on. The problem was, there was just a scaling problem, right? I mean, we couldn't way We're looking at the type of scale we needed and trying to procure hardware. And we just couldn't physically get it fast enough with the right amount of budget. So I come from a previous place doing a job? Yes. I mean, that's kind of what I've done for a lot of years. So, you know, I convinced my boss stay here. Let's let's run the stats happen. Eight of us. So we built that ran it, launched our new version of arse as application in Amazon. And at that point, you know, our traffic skyrocketed. You know, I think last year we had somewhere to 180% growth, right? And, you know, our core infrastructure just wasn't surviving. Right is outages and problems. And so, you know, we took it and we we went to Amazon with it. And, you know, we rebuilt it all. And it was a really interesting thing, because Amazon was Luther releasing features and we were consuming them, right? Five. Siri's and Nitro came out, and we're like finally waken get performance of the networking interfaces. Then they released the D instances within ve Emmys, or like finally, our databases will survive and they can go fast enough, you know? And then we leveraging huge Aurore instances, real impact power, the back end of this thing. So you >> guys really tapped really? At the right time? You guys were growing. You saw the, you know, that scale potentially bursting. You saw the scale coming in growth coming in the company you could almost see. Okay, look, we got a plan. So you go to Amazon News Service is what's the impact on the staff has been any more people. What's been the impact on? >> Yeah, I think the big thing is the initial move. We did it for three of us. I mean, it was a lot of work. We spent a lot of time doing it. A lot of people, sleepless nights, a lot of long weekends. But now you know, we've got a really stable platform, and, you know, we were able to really continue processing our message. Growth is increased, and we know we haven't, you know, had to totally re architect things again, right? The architecture's work has grown and expanded. Stale ability has been fantastic for us. The performance, of course, is you know, some of >> the best walking commercial for eight of us, a question paper. But if you'll have that same experience, but what's interesting is you guys essentially are, in my opinion, representative of the trend that we're seeing, which is certainly in security as they catch up the devil. That's a big story here. Security now can level up with speed of the Dev ops kind of engineering philosophy and pointing, but it's it's the trend of building your own and a lot of companies. They're reinvesting in teams of people because they're close to the action and they can actually code if I quickly use cases that they know are bona fide, whether it's a low level platform service, primitive or right up into the app, using machine learning and data. So you know you have now that now you had security in there. This is where the action is and so cos I mean, I see the successful ones like you guys coming in saying You know what? Let's not boil the ocean over. Let's just solve one problem scale and then let's look at the service is that we can leverage to doom or take us through that philosophies. I think you guys were great example of that. >> So, I mean, if we touch on the security aspect, I think that that was a big thing is way. Don't run a dedicate security team. My team is the security team, right? And that was a big thing that both me and my director is. You know, we wanted the people building it to be doing the security. And, you know, the that was what was really, you know, easy with eight of us is, you know, we could turn on all these fancy features. It was just, you know, a flag and Terra formed all of a sudden way. Have encryption arrest. It's something we've never had before. So there's that. And then, you know, to the builder methodology be because we came from such a scrappy like way. Got to go fast, like we didn't have time to evaluate software bringing consultants, you know, it's so, you know, we kind of just kind of adopted that, you know, it's better for us a lot of times to kind of roll our own thing. Andan there, times where there's software that's a good fit for it. I mean, we do use some external vendors on things, and >> that's really more of a decision on the platform. But as you look at the platform engineer, you go. Okay, we gotta build here. Let's weigh No, he don't really is not me that be a core competency. Let's go look at some vendors for this, this and that. But ultimately, if you look at something that's really core, you can dig into it. And certainly with Kubernetes and with a lot of the service is coming out sas after taking eventually Cloud Native. >> Yeah, yeah, through you're you're so we're huge Criminality is 100% kubernetes everywhere, and I think that that's really been another big thing for us is you know, it's it's brought our application up a level to be able to integrate, be more reliable. I mean, you know where you used to have this external service discovery piece, and then you have your security peace. You know where kubernetes I can go deploy a container application. Describe it all at once, right? It's all in my coat config so I can audit it for our compliance sees. You know we can co to review for our compliance, sees but the same time I deploy the whole thing. I'm not. Here's this team to point the There's this other team then coming by trying to secure the app. It it's all together. >> The old way would have been kind of build it out, maybe use some software. Have all these silo teams. Yes, and that's kind of all kind of built in. >> Yeah, we kinda just opened it out, right? I mean, you know, from from arse, as teams leveraging a lot of, you know, the security features that are available to us to our core piece, which is a very different type of software, you know, is leveraging the same pieces and same type of monitoring principle. >> It's interesting, You know, the Kino. There's something people hemming and hard around, like the word Dev sec ops. I mean, I love Devon. We've been we've been part of that since day one. It's been fun to be part of it, but we saw the benefits of it. Clearly. You see, no doubt there's no debate. But when you start getting into some of the semantic definitions, go to security known feel that, by the way, is fragmented like crazy and now you get the growth of the cloud is starting to see cloud security become its own thing That's different than the on premises side. So what's your take on that? Because a lot of people are wanting their going to cloud anyway. So what's that they're saying on premise, security posturing and cloud security? In your opinion? >> Yeah, so I mean, it is drastically different. I think part of it's the tool set that's available, right? I mean, we ran data centers. I've automated data centers, but, you know, they're just not at the level of which I could do the automation in the auditing in the cloud. So I feel like I found actually, some respects makes it easier for me to do security on run security and audit security numbers. The data center. You know, I don't run a lot of tooling and a lot of things to get all the views. I need it, But there's a lot of really separate systems, you know, in the cloud you have, like this one. Nice, fundamental, a p I. That hi is a person who has to build the infrastructure can use, but it's the same a p I that I put my security had on that. Like I used to make security, right, security groups, things of that sort. It's all the same, right? I'm not having to learn five different applications has been really important for our team because, you know, my team comes from the vast majority of no true Dev ops Thio. You know, we've been upgraded from people in our knock, you know, and have them really just learned the one ecosystem >> is you don't want to fragment the team. Yeah, I don't wanna have five different skill sets, kind of >> their victims. We just We don't wanna have tools that only one person knew how to do right. We wanted people to take vacations right? And like, we don't want to have a tool that's like only only that person knows how to run it, nobody else does. And so >> that was the big thing for us. What you think about the show here, reinforce all say it's not an Amazon Webster's summit. They do the summits which assistance see a commercial version of reinventing regions. This is a branded show is obviously their cloud security going hard at it. What's your take. So far, >> I've really enjoyed it. I mean, so I've gone to some. It's I've been to reinvent for a few years spoken to reinvent once, you know? But, you know, those things were fun, but they're so big and there's so much going on, you know, it's it's refreshing to be in this reinforced conference and focus on the security side. Sitting talks were like, You have people getting into kms and like some of these really pivotal tools. Yeah, it's been really, really >> get down and dirty here. Yeah, And people talk to, you know, approachable >> without, like, having to deal with all of Amazon, right? I can focus on, like, this one little >> portion reinvent you kidding? Walked through the hallways just like >> yeah, I mean, Well, where one hotel Are you gonna >> be at that point now, right? Yeah. >> Okay. So I gotta ask you about the dev ops question. We've been commenting yesterday day Volonte, who is on his way in. He and I were talking with a lot of si sos and a lot of practitioners. And the conversation generally was security needs to catch up to Dev ops and to pay who you talk to. They may or may not believe that way. Think that to be true. We think security now has the level up with the speed of Dev ops from his agility things that are highlights. For example, you guys have What's your take on that when someone says, Hey, security's got to catch up the devil Is it really catching a prism or transformation? What's your view on this >> will be like when you say catching up like it takes a negative. You know, I don't want to be negative there on DSO. I feel like it's a transformation. That means the same thing of going from the data center as as just as an operational engineer to Amazon is, there wasn't catching up. It was you just changing everything you do and how you think. And I think you know that's That's the same thing that a lot of security people I've seen struggle with was their success. Life are the ones that have gone, and I understand that, like, >> what do you think is the most important story happening in this world security cloud security screen general that should be covered by media that should be covered by the industry that is covered him should be amplified Maur or isn't covered and should be talking about what's the what is the most important stories that should be told. >> Well, so again, you know, I'm a fundamental layer, so things to me that I are always over shouted or like, you know, just encryption, right? I mean, everybody's like train encryption on. But, you know, I feel that talks I've gone to today or deeper dives into that. I feel like, you know, the kms product of Amazon. I feel like is a very powerful product that isn't super talked about. It's been nice here because they talked about 100 like you go to reinvent you don't really see a lot of kms type things are crowded, just them. And, you know, I think it makes some of those very difficult products to run in a data center very easy. You know what you hear on the security side is unsecured, as three buckets are like. Security groups are in conflict. Configure it incorrectly. And you know, no one knows that commercial. Everyone knows that. You know Elasticsearch not turned into a new s three right compromises You choose your database of choice of public. But for me, I think it's like a part that I feel is missing with Amazon is the ease of use of like, clicking a button. And >> now I have >> full Aurora encryption by default >> and the service you can just turn on what's next for you guys. Give us a peek into some of the things they're working on. What excited about? >> So I mean, we're making Ah, big thing is, you know, so we spend a lot of building now we're kind of going back and really kind of wrapping are a lot of our compliance is so zip it is a hole has been working towards a lot of stock to type compliance, seize on things like that. So, you know, we've been working through governance and no deploying. You know, software that kind of is more actively watching our environment and alerting us or helping us make sure we're staying at C. I s type benchmark so that you know, when my boss comes to me and says, Show me that we're doing this, I can just say, Oh, here's dashboard. So we were really not like via more secure State is a big, big product that we're working with right now. We leverage cloud health and those kind of the two external vendors that we've really partnered with. And so, you know, this year's been adopting those into the system. That's when the eight of us side, you know, we still just run Cooper Nettie. So there's a lot going on in the Cuban aunties ecosystem that we're also working on. So, like, service, mash and things of that sort like, How can I take this idea of security groups in this least trust model infrastructural e up to kubernetes, which by default this kind of flattened open. And so, you know, we've been exploring envoy and sdo linker D or write our own, you know, you know, and looking through those things and and then again wrote, making more robust CCD pipeline. So container scanning vulnerability, protecting our edge way running cloudfront wife for a while. But, you know, a lot of this year's gonna be spent, you know, Evaluate Now you know, we deployed a lost about 10 and got it turned on right because it works. But diving more deeply into like some of the autumn mediations >> have a fun environment right now, is it? You can knock down some core business processes, scale them up, and then you got the toys to play with the open source front. You got kubernetes really a robust ecosystem. They're just It's a lot of fun. >> Yeah, Criminal has definitely been exciting to play with >> advice to fellow practitioners and platform engineers because, you know, you guys been successful with transmission A the best. You got your hands on a lot of cool things. You got a good view, the landscape on security side of the deaf, upside for the people out there who were like they want to jump in with a parachute open. Whatever makes you that nervous, Some people are aggressively going at it hard core. Some have cultural change issues. What's your invite? General advice to your >> fellow appears My advice is just jump in and do it right. I mean, you know, don't be afraid. I mean, we had a really fast transformation, and we failed a lot very fast, and we weren't afraid of it. I mean, you know, if we weren't failing, we weren't doing it right. You know, in my opinion, right. We had to fail a few times a year. I was gonna work. And so I think, you know, don't be scared to jump in and just build, you know, right the automation. See what it does. Run some tests against it. >> You know, it's almost like knowing what not to do is the answer. Get some testing out there, get his hands dirty. >> What's gonna work for you? What's gonna work for your business? And the only way you're going to do that is to actually do it. >> Showed up in specialized Colby. Thanks for coming and sharing the great insight. Kobe Alan, platform engineer for Zip Whip Great company here. The Cube. Bring all the action. Extracting the signal from the noise. Great insights. And here, coming from reinforced here in Boston, eight dresses. First conference around. Cloud security will be right back after this short break

>> live from Anaheim, California. It's the queue covering nutanix dot next twenty nineteen Brought to you by nutanix. >> Hello, everyone. You are watching the Cube and we are live at nutanix dot Next here in Anaheim. I'm your host, Rebecca Night, along with my co host, John Farrier. We're joined by Michael Bushong. He is the vice president Enterprise marketing at Juniper Networks. Thank you so much for returning to the Cube, Your Cuba Lem. >> So thank you for this is this is awesome and you can't see it on the cameras. But this is a, like, just amazing. >> It's very We are in the clouds up here. It's a very high stage. Everything's coming full circle. >> Jim Cramer. Ask a little bit >> serious. Okay. >> Of course. I'm going to ask the tough questions >> going on. He's going to start slamming everything very soon, >> But we've known each other for a long time, Jennifer Going back ten years ago. So look, a tangle started. We're in our tenth year. You know, if you've seen the journey, I am a juniper. You left juniper startup brocade, then back to juniper. So you've seen that circle? You've seen the couple waves? I mean one of the things we were talking about before we came on camera was saw. Network fabrics to Dover had Juno's and then be anywhere. But you know, So this arrow, which became the ESPN Wave, are now suffer to find data center. So you've been in that journey is a product person. And now marking juniper, it's actually goes back about a decade. This whole esti n stuff networking. So what's What's the role now that you're doing? What's juniper doing? Why Nutanix? What's your story year? >> Sure. So I run enterprise marketing at Juniper, so my goal is effectively toe to make some of the hype makes sense, right? It goes back a decade. Actually, the early days of the only ESPN movement we didn't call it s tiene right. Juniper started with open flow and PC and alto and all these acronyms, and we actually, we're a great engineering company. Maybe not so great marketing company. And we actually call it network program ability. That didn't take off. But the technology's kind of endured. And I think what we saw was this lengthy incubation period to the point that now, as we sit here dot next in twenty nineteen. We're starting to see now some of the attraction of the last couple of years. That's a junipers general position. So we wantto dr Adoption. Certainly there's products and technology that underpins that, but But fundamentally, we're looking at a huge operational shift. And if that operational shift doesn't happen, then that's to the detriment of everyone in the industry. >> What's the relationship with NUTANIX? Can you talk about how you guys work together? What's the connection? >> Sure. So nutanix obviously does the whole hyper converge space. We provide the networking components to that. So whether that's the top Iraq connectivity, how do you get your traffic into the rest of the network? We've done some security stuff which we can talk more about. And then, if you look at the overall management piece, we've got integrations at the management policy layer as well. >> So your relationship you both got a very similar world view. How you see technology, you're both taken on VM. Where to? Can you talk a little bit about the relationships there and and why it works? >> Sure, fundamentally, if you look at what Nutanix is trying to do, it's this whole idea of one click. It ties ing everything right. They talk a lot in their keynote sessions. You hear the executives talk, You look at their collateral, the messages they take, the customers. It's about making things simple. Junipers Strategy is this idea of engineering simplicity. So just a top level? What's our purpose? What's our role in this industry at large? I think we have a very common worldview. Of course, driving simplicity is going to happen in the context of real architectural change on the change That's kind of everywhere is cloud and increasingly multi cloud. And so both Nutanix and Juniper about really driving simplicity in the context of Cloud multi cloud, giving customers the opportunity, toe run workloads wherever they need Teo without taking on additional operational burden. That's kind of cesarean unwanted in enterprises networking. >> So the Big Tran, this multi cloud you guys. That's a key part of the strategy. Dave along tonight and Stew Minutemen were arguing on the cute couple events ago. There are not one of our sessions about the hype around multi cloud. The reality of it. The reality is, is that everyone kind of has multiple clouds. It's not like that the clouds aren't talking to each other, and then we're just kind of riffing on the cloud is just big. One big distributed network, different computing, distributed networks. These air knew these aren't new paradigms. These are existing things that have computer science behind them. Engineering behind it. So juniper, you have been around for a long time. Connecting networks. The cloud is like some of the same concert on premise Hybrid Cloud and multiplied it basically a distributed network. It's all cloud operations. We get that, but the technology issue is not that hard, but I won't say that that hard, but it's similar to what you guys have done in the past. Just differently. How are you guys looking at that? Because multiple clouds, just like Internet working the switches routers, you move from packet that point A and point B get storage. His store stuff So concepts are all the same. How do you guys seeing the multi cloud opportunity within juniper? >> So I would make the distinction between multiple clouds and multi cloud? I agree with you. If you look at most enterprises, they have a workload in Amazon. They're using sales force, and so you know, they're multi cloud, right? They have multiple clouds, multi clouds, more of an operational condition. It's about taking disparate pools of resource is and managing. That is one thing. So think of it more about how you do stuff and less about where you host an application. If you look it even like describing Amazon, some people say, Well, Amazon is just, you know, Cloud is just using other people servers. It's not. You're not renting their servers. What you're leveraging is their operations. That's the transformation. That's this kind of underfoot. And so while some of the technology bits are common, the ability to do abstracted control moving to declare it over intent based management, right, these air right technology building blocks. What you're seeing now is the operational models are coming along, and that's really that's the change we have to drive on. I'll just kind of close with when you change technology. If it's just about deploying a piece of software, if it's just about deploying a piece of hardware like candidly, that challenge isn't that it's not that hard, right? We know how to deploy stuff when you start talking about changing how people fundamentally do their jobs. When you started talking about changing, you know how businesses operate. That's that's the piece that takes some time and I would venture. That's why you know, you look a decade ago why we're where we started. If you look at what's taking a decade, it's the operational change, not the technology piece >> and the cultural jobs movement. Certainly forcing function on that, which is awesome. And that's the tale when I think. And then again, Gene Came was on yesterday Who wrote The Devil's Handbook and also does that death. The Devil Enterprise. Someone said, We're three percent in. I would agree with him. I think it's so early, but But the challenge. I want to get your thoughts, Michael. And this is that Connecting multiple on disparity environments is great, but late in C kills now. So now late and see these air old school concepts, you know, get a time can't change the laws of physics. Right? So Leighton sees matters s l A's matter. So these air network challenges these air software challenges. What's your view on that piece of the puzzle? >> We leave when we say cloud, you know a lot of people probably think, um, you know, G C P Azure. They might think a WSB probably picture in your head, you know, some logically central cloud. First, we need to disavow people of the notion that cloud is this thing that somehow sits at the center of everything. It's not. There are centralized clouds. If you're optimizing for economics, that makes perfect sense. Tow To do that. There's distributed clouds. The whole rise of multi axis edge computing is about changing the paradigm from moving data to the application. Right. If your applications in Amazon and you're going to send your data there, that's one model Teo. Sometimes you might want to move the application to the data. If you have a lot of data like an i o t. Use case as an example, I was used oil platforms is a really good example. I don't know if you know, but you know how they get all their. They have all these mining and manufacturing bits. They've got lots of data. How did they get that data off the oil platforms? Snowball. So what they do is the helicopters come in, they take the drives off and they they they leave right. The reason they do that because if your reliance on satellite links just too much data, you can't statue >> is going to get a helicopter to ransom helicopter to come in, >> we'LL know when they're swapping the crew out every fourteen days, that's what happens. So here's the thing, right? If in that kind of model than the cloud, the data center exists on premises. And if that's the case, then when we think about you know kind of what the cloud is, cloud is, it's It's a lot. It's a lot more than what we most of us probably think about. Certainly, we see it with Outpost as a WS is starting to move on premises versions, and there's a lot of reasons you might wanna have a distributed cloud. Certainly it could be, you know, your comfort and security and control. There's real privacy implications, country of origin, so subpoenas can access your information depending on where it resides. >> What you're saying is, basically, it's all cloud. It's operational is the new definition. So you figured from an operational standpoint, Ops and Dev's That's it. The rest is just all connected somehow through the text, >> and then you need to have it. Yes. So we we understand the connectivity, bitch, you've gotta have the right, you know, elements. But if it's operational, it's about how do you do policy management? So part of the whole nutanix thing and kind of what drove us together was this idea that if I want a one click everything. If you could do that within the hyper converge space, you still have to do that over the connected environment, which means managing policy from a single location, regardless of where it is. And of course, using that policy to Dr Security >> and their strategy is to take what that worked for. The CIA and the data center move that into this new operator operating model, which spans multiple quote, disparity, environments or clouds or edges. It's similar similar concept, but different environmental. Yeah, >> that's exactly right. And so then what Nutanix needs that is a strong networking partner because they have tto do the bits that they do. They need other people to do the bits that that you know that we can do. We pull those things together and then you can provide essentially a secure environment for hybrid workload. >> So you guys embed it into their product? You guys joined cell together. Is it more of a partnership? How deep is the partnership with you With Nutanix >> s all just They'LL say yes, we get along s o and it kind of the most surface level you know, you need to have top Iraq switches. You gotta connect to the network and so we do qualification there. So if you deploy nutanix, you can deploy juniper alongside and that looks more like a kind of a co selling meat in the channel type model. Beyond that, if you look at how we provide security over like a workload environment, the question is, then you know what's the security element? So we've taken our virtual firewall. We cut our V s are axe, which essentially runs in the V M. And we can run it on a V, and so that gives them a segmentation strategies. So if you look it workloads that air distributed across the cluster by having a firewall element that we can enforce policy. Of course, that firewall element is then integrated with prism. So if I want to deploy these things when I spin up a new V M. What I want to do is spin up the security with it, and so you see management integration. Then if we continue this too, it's kind of full conclusion. We have, ah, product suite We call contrail in the enterprise version Contra Enterprise Multi Cloud, which is all about policy management and underlay management. And so, as we extend the partnership, it gives us additional opportunity to take um to provide routed elements which provide policy enforcement points and then to give us a way of managing policy over a diverse environment. >> And you guys can bring in that platform element for nutanix. Is there now a platform? They have a full stack of software on Lee. So you guys, you cannot take their stuff, put it there and vice versa. >> That's exactly right. So whether the workload resides in a ws on two or whether it resides kind of on premises in a jiffy, weaken one, we're kind of co managed and then to it gives us the security elements toe play across that >> one of the things that we're talking a lot about at this rinse it and at a lot of other events like it, it's sort of or the dark side of technology. We're at a time where major presidential candidates are talking about breaking up. Big tech were becoming much more aware of the privacy concerns. The biases that are built into algorithms. Exactly. I want to hear your thoughts as a technology veteran. Do you? Are you still a technology optimist or do you did? Does this stuff keep you up at night? I mean, how where do you fit your personal views? I was >> somewhat of a technology optimists, but I'm a skeptic when it comes to the people. I think if the technology existed in a vacuum, I think some of the problems go away. I think privacy is a major concern. I think it's going to shape regulatory action, especially in Europe. Well, so I think we'LL see similar actions in the US I don't have quite a strong connection to what's happening in Asia. Um, I think that the regulatory, the challenge I have from a technology perspective is that if the regulations come in the absence of understanding how the technology works, then you end up with some really terrifying outcomes on DSO I'm Sam. I'm a fan of the technology. I'm nervous of the people on that in terms of like, our overall Ruelas is cos here, I think, you know, we need to do a candidate a better job of, of making sure things land before we move on to the next big thing on DH. You know, we're talking cloud. We're ten years into cloud and people were always talking about the next frontier. To some extent, I think the world doesn't move as fast as we like to think it does. I don't think that the even like the mark, I'm in a marketing role. I don't think that the marketing hype necessary. I don't think it serves us by moving too far ahead because I will tell you when the gap between the promise and the reality becomes insurmountable e wide. I think it's Ah, I think I think everyone loses Andi. You run the risk of stranding an entire generation of people who who gets stuck behind it, and I don't you know, I'm nervous about about what that means, and I think it's you asked the question that you're the dark side. I think it's Certainly it plays out in our industry. I think it plays out. You know, there's a digital divide that's growing in the U. S. Based on broadband access. By the way, that's gonna widen with five G. I think it plays out between different nation states. So I Yeah, I don't know. I'm an optimist. Maybe I'm a pragmatist. >> Realist. >> Yeah, I'm I'm I'm I'm a little scared. >> Little cloud definitely happened, and that's a good point. And we took a lot of heat at looking ankle. Keep on the cube. Was too many Men in the team put out the first private cloud report People like this is nonsense. Well, well. And our thesis was clouds grade if you want. If you're in the cloud as a cloud native or, you know, new startup, why wouldn't you go on Amazon? Everyone, we did that. But if once you taste cloud operations, you go Wow. This is so much awesome. Right? Then go into a modern and enterprise. It's not going to be overnight. Change over. I mean, we might say it's going to take about a decade. We fell from the beginning that cloud operations once you taste cloud you realize this is a new operating model. There's a lot of benefits to that, but to change it over in the enterprise, and that turned out to be what everyone's now do it. But that was three years ago. >> Well, there's implications. So if its operations then operations is inherently an end end proposition, you can't have operations in a silo. Things like you're monitoring tools. How do you do cloud monitoring it on premises monitoring. How do you do workflow Execution? How do you do? You know, automation, whether that's event driven or even just scripted. If you have wildly different environments that require you to buy for Kate, your investment, then there's a very real There's a complexity that comes with that your people have tto do more than one thing that's that's hard. There's a cost that comes with that because you have different teams for different things. There's a lack of coordination. I don't think you unlock the value of cloud in that in that environment. And I think that operational pieces really around converging on >> Michael your point about people in technology. It's so right on. We see that all the time where I'm a technology Optimus. I love technology, but I totally agree that people can really destroy it looked fake news. It's just, you know, it's infrastructure network effect with bad content policy because Facebook's immediate company not a platform >> well, technology's only is good on our end are >> gonna run. The government don't even have the Internet work. So you know when you when you go to the cloud, same >> knowledge just also want the government to come away with that we do it >> where the government just doesn't know how the Internet works. Some people that do but like the good hearings, it's ridiculous. But you know, there's a real D o. D project going on future military Jet I contract. We've been reporting on where modern data driven application workloads. I could use a soul, cloud or multi class so that the dogma of what multi vendor was in the old days is changing. >> I don't I actually don't know if you look at multi cloud. If it's an end end proposition, then by definition it's also going to be multi vendor like there's no future where it's like end in all one vendor. I think we have to come to grips with that is an industry. But I think if you're clinging to your you know, kind of I want my single procurement vehicle. I want my single certification. By the way, I think if you believe fundamentally that incumbency is going to be that your path forward, I think it's a dangerous place to be. That's not to say that. I think the incumbents all go away. I don't There's a there's a heavy rule to play but certainly were going to open things up. And >> you see procurement modernized. I mean, I mean, government goes back to nineteen ninety five procurement standards, but either the enterprise procurement moving So the text moves so fast. Procurement still has rules from >> so no, I don't think all >> of the second right. >> Then there's a whole A procurement in our industry is driven by our peace. Our peace tend to be derivative. I take my last r p. I had some new lines. If you want Esti n so you take the cup copy and paste five hundred seventy four lines at the five hundred seventy fifth line. S T n. You're gonna end up in the same solution because the first five seventy four of the same I do think we should learn a little bit from what the big public cloud cos they're doing, which is, you know, tightening refreshed cycles, retiring things with as much passion as they introduced new things tightening up. Ultimately, what gets deployed? Maintaining diversity of underlying components so you could maintain economic leverage when you're doing procurement. But then solidifying on operationally streamlined model, That's I think that's the future. That's certainly what we've been on as a company. I think that's what we're betting on with Nutanix From a partnership point of view, I think we'LL be on the right side of change on that, and I think it's going to, you know, it may take some time to play out. That's where I think things go >> well. Michael Bushong. Always a pleasure having you on the Cube. Thank you for coming on. >> Thank you very much. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for John Furrier. You are watching the Cube

from the silicon angle media office in Boston Massachusetts it's the queue now here's your host David on tape hi everybody this is Dave lotta a and this is the cube the leader in live tech coverage this cube conversation I'm really excited Craig Hibbert is here he's a vice president of infinite at and he focuses on strategic accounts he's been in the storage business for a long time he's got great perspectives correct good to see you again thanks for coming on good to say that good to be back so there's a there's a saying don't fight fashion well you guys fight fashion all the time you got these patents you got this thing called neuro cache you're your founder and chairman mo che has always been - cutting against the grain and doing things his own way but I'd love for you to talk about some of those things the patents that you have some architecture the neuro cache fill us in on all that sure so when we go in we talk to customers and we say we have a hundred and thirty-eight patents a lot of them say well that's great but you know how does that relate to me a lot of these are and or gates and certain things that they don't know how it fits into the day to day life so I think this is a good opportunity to talk about several of those that do and so obviously the neural cache is something that is is dynamic instead of having a key in a hash which all the other vendors have just our position in that table allows us to determine all the values and things we need from it but it also monitors this is an astounding statement but from the moment that array is powered on every i/o that flows through it we track data for the life of the reins for some of these customers it's five and six years so you know those blocks of data are they random are they sequential are they hot are they cold when was the last time was accessed and this is key information because we bring intelligence to the lower level block layer where everybody else has just done they just ship things things come into acutely moving they have no idea what they are we do and the value around that is that we can then predict when workloads are aging out today you have manual people writing things in in things like easy tier or faster or competing products or two stories right and all these things that that manage all these problems are the human intervention we do it dynamically and that feeds information back into the Ray and helps to determine which virtual ray group it should reside on and where on the discipline Dalls based upon the age of the the application how it's trending the these are very powerful things in a day where we need eminent information send in to a consumer in a store I'd it's all all this dynamic processing and the ability to bring that in so that's that's one of the things we do another one is that the catalyst for our fast rebuilds we can rebuild two failed full 12 terabyte drives in under 80 minutes if those drives are half full then it's nine minutes and this is by understanding where all the data is and sharing the rebuild process from the drives that's another one of our patterns perhaps one of the most challenging that we have is that storage vendors tend to do error correction at the fibre channel layer once that data enters into the storage array there is no mechanism to check the integrity of that data and a couple of vendors have an option to do this but they can only do it for the first right and they also recommend you to turn that feature off because it slows down the box so we're infinite out is unique and I think this is for me one of the the most important paths that we have is that every time we ride a 64k slice in the system we assign some metadata to that and obviously it has a CRC check sum but more importantly it has the locality of reference so if we subsequently go back and do a reread and the CRC matches but the location has changed we know that corruption has happened sometimes a bit flipped on right all of these things that constitute sound data corruption that's not just the impressive part what we do at that point is we dynamically deduce that the data has been corrupt and using the parity in the quorum where it were a raid 6 like a dual parity configuration we rebuild that data on the fly without the application or the end-user knowing that there was a problem and that way served back the data that was actually written we guarantee that were the only array that does that today there's massive for our customers I mean the time to rebuild you said 12 terabyte drive I mean I yeah I would have thought I mean they always joke how long do you think it takes to rebuild a 30 terabyte drive because eventually you know sure you know it's like a month with us it's the same so if you look at our three terabyte drives it was 18 minutes the four terabyte drives 18 minutes the 618 minutes 812 will be good all the way up to 20 terabyte drives figuration we have no what I came back to a conversation we've had many many times we've shown you guys we were early on in the flash storage trend and we saw the prices coming down we done like high-speed spinning disks were there days were numbered and sure correct in that prediction but then you know disk drives have kept that distance yeah you guys have a skewed going all flash because the economics but help us understand this because you've got this mechanical device and you yet you guys are able to claim performance that's equal to or oftentimes much much better than a lot of your all flash competitors and I want to understand that a little bit it suggests to me that there's so much other overhead going on and other ball necks in the system that you guys are dealing with both architectural II and through your intelligence software can you talk about that absolutely absolutely the software is the key right we are a software company and we have some phenomenal guys that do the software piece so as far as the performance goes the the backend spinning discs are really obfuscated by two layers of virtualization and we ensure that because we have massive amounts of DRAM that all of that data flows into DRAM it will sit in DRAM for an astonishing five minutes I say astonishing because most of our vendors try to evict cache straight away so they've got room for the next one and that does not facilitate a mechanism by which you can inspect those dumb pieces of data and if you get enough dumb data you can start to make him intelligent right you can go get discarded data from cell phone towers and find out we know where people go to work and what time they worker because of that what demographic at the end and you know now you're predicting the election based upon discarding itself on talladega so so if you can take dumb data and put patterns around it and make it sequential which we do we write out a log structured right so we're really really fast at the front-end and some customers say well how do you manage that on the backend here's something that our designers and architects did very very well the the speed of the of ddr3 is about 15k per second which is what Cindy REM right now we have 480 spindles on the backend if you say each one of them can do a hundred 100 mics per second which they can do more than that 200 that gives us a forty eight gigabit gigabyte sorry per second backplane D stage ability which is three times faster than the DRAM so when you look at it the box has been designed all the way so there is no bottleneck through flowing through the DRAM anything that still been access that comes out of that five minute window once it's D stays to all the spindles incidentally analog structured right so right now it over 480 spindles all the time and then you've got the random still on the SSD which will help to keep that response time around about 2 milliseconds and just one last point on there I have a customer that has 1.2 petabytes written on a 1.3 a petabyte box and is still achieving a 2 millisecond response time and that's unheard of because most block arrays as you fill them up to 60 70 % that the performance starts going in the tank so I go down memory lane here so the most successful you know storage array in the history of the industry my opinion probably fact it was symmetric sand mosha a designed that he eschewed raid5 everybody was on the crazy about raid 5 is dead no no just mirror it yeah and that's gonna give us the performance that we need and he would write they would write 2d ran and then then of course you'd think that the D stage bandwidth was the bottleneck because they had such a back high a large number of back-end spindles the bandwidth coming out of that DRAM was enormous you just described something actually quite similar so that I was going to ask you is it the D stage bandwidth the bottleneck and you're saying no because your D stage being what there's actually three tighter than the D rate up it is so with the symmetric some typical platforms you would have a certain amount of disk in a disk group and you would assign a phase and Fiber Channel ports to that and there'd be certain segments in cash that would dedicated those discs we have done away with that we have so many well with two layers of the virtualization at the front as we talked about but because nothing is a bottleneck and because we've optimized each component the DRAM and I talked about the SSDs we don't write heavily over those we write in a sequential pattern to the SSD so that the wear rate is elongated and so because of that and we have all the virtualized raid groups configured in cache so what happens is as we get to that five-minute window we're about 2 D state all of the raid groups the al telling the cash how to lay out the virtual raid structure based on how busy or the raid groups are at the time so if you were to pause it and ask us where it's going we can tell you it's the Machine line it's the artificial intelligence of saying this raid group just took a D stage you know or there's a lot of data in the cache that's heading for these but based upon the the prediction of the heart the cold that I talked about a few months ago and so it will make a determination to use a different virtual rater and that's all done in memory as opposed to to rely on the disk so we're not we don't have the concept of spare disk we have the concept of spare capacity it's all shared and because it's all shared it's this very powerful pool that just doesn't get bogged down and continues to operate all the way up to the full capacity so I'm struggling with this there is no bottleneck because there's always a problem that can assure them so where is the bottleneck the ball net for us is when the erase fault so if you overwrite the maximum bandwidth and that historically you know in in 2016-2017 was a roughly 12 cube per second we got that in the fall 2018 to roundabout 15 and we're about to make the announcement that we've made tectonic increases in that where will now have right bandwidth approach in 16 gig per second and also read bandwidth about 25 K per second that 16 is going to move up to 20 remember what I said we release a number and we gradually grow into it and and and maximize and tweak that software when you think that most or flash arrays can do maybe one and a half gig per second sustained writes that gives us a massive leg up over our competition instead of buying an all flash array for this and another mid-tier array for this and coal social this you can just buy one platform that services at all all the protocols and they're all access the same way so you write an API one way mark should almost as big fan of this about writing code obviously was spinnaker and some of those other things that he's been involved in and we do the same thing so our API is the same for the block as it is for the NAS as it is for the ice cozy so it's it's very consistent you write it once and you can adapt multiple products well I think you bring about customers for short bit everybody talks about digital transformation and it's this big buzzword but when you talk to customers they're all going through some kind of digital transformation oh they want to get digital right let's put it that way yeah I don't want to get disrupted they see Amazon buying grocers and while getting into the financial services and content and it's all about the data so there's a real disruption scenario going on for every business and and the innovation engine seems to be data okay but data just sitting there and a data swamp is no good so you got to apply machine intelligence for that to that data and you got to have scale mm-hmm do you guys make a big deal about about petabyte scale yeah what are your customers telling you about the importance of that and how does it fit into that innovation sandwich that I just laid out sure no it's great question so we have some very because we're so have 70 petabytes of production over those 70 yep we have a couple of those both financial institutions very very good at what they do we worked with them previously with a with another product that really kind of introduced another one of most Shea's products that was XIV that introduced the concepts of self-healing and no tuning and things like we don't even talked about that there's no tuning knobs on the infinite I probably should mention that but our customers said have said to us we couldn't scale you know we had a couple hundred terabyte boxes before there were okay you know you've brought you've raised the game by bringing in a much higher level of availability and much higher capacity we can take one of our but I'm in this process right now the customer we can take one of our boxes and collapse three vmax 20 of VMAX 40s on it we have numerous occassions gone into establishments that have 11 12 23 inch cabinets two and a half thousand spindles of the old DMC VMO station we've replaced it with one 19-inch rack of arts right that's a phenomenal state when you think about it and that was paid for you think some of these v-max 47 it's 192 ports on them Fiber Channel ports we have 24 so the fibre channel port reduction the power heating and cooling over an entire row down to one eight kilowatt consumption by the way our power is the same whether it's three four terabytes six eight twelve they all use the same power plan so as we increase the geometry capacity of the drives we decrease the cost per usable well we're actually far more efficient than all fly sharing with the most environmentally friendly hybrids been in this planet on the array so asking about cloud so miss gray on the planet that would be yeah so when cloud first sort of came out of the division Financial Services guys are like no clouds that's a bad word they're definitely you know leaning into that adopting it more but still there's a lot of workloads that they're gonna leave on Prem they want to that cloud experience to the data what are you hearing from the financial services customers in particular and I and I've single them out because they're they're very advanced they're very demanding they are they a lot of dough and so what do you see in terms of them building cloud hybrid cloud and and what it means for for them and specifically the storage industry yeah so I'm actually surprised that they've adopted it as much as they have to be honest with you and I think the the economics are driving that but having said that whenever they want to get the data back or they want to bring it back home prime for various reasons that's when they're running into problems right it's it's like how do I get my own data back well you've got to open up the checkbook and write big checks so I think infini debt has a nice strategy there where we have the same capabilities that you have on prime you having the cloud don't forget nobody else has that one of the encumbrances to people move into the cloud has been that it lacks the enterprise functionality that people are used to in the data center but because our cost point is so affordable we become not only very attractive or four on Prem but for cloud solutions as well of course we have our own new tricks cloud offering which allows people to use as dr or replications and so however you want to do it where you can use the same api's and code that your own dis and extrapolate that out to the cloud I was there which is which is very helpful and so we have the ability if you take a snapshot on Amazon it may take four hours and it's been copied over to an s3 device that's the only way they can make it affordable to do it and then if you need that data back it's it's not it's not imminent you've got to rehydrate from s3 and then copy it back over your snapshot with infinite data its instantaneous we do not stop i/o when we do snapshots and another one the patterns we use the time synchronous mechanism every every AO the rise has a timestamp and we when we take a snapshot we just do a point in time and in a timestamp that's greater than that instantiation point is for the volume and previous is for the snapshot we can do that in the cloud we can instantly recover hundreds of terabytes worth of databases and make them instantly available so our story again with the innovation our innovation wasn't just for for on pram it was to be facilitated anyway you are and that same price point carries forward from here into the cloud when Amazon and Microsoft wake up and realized that we have this phenomenal story here I think they'll be buying from us in leaps and bounds it's it's the only way to make the cloud affordable for storage vendors so these are the things you talk about you know bringing bringing data back and bringing workloads back and and there are tool chains that are now on Prem the kubernetes is a great example that our cloud like and so when you bring data back you want to have that cloud experience so automated operations plays into that you know automation used to be something that people are afraid of and they want to do do manual tearing member they wanted their own knobs to turn those days are gone because people want to drive digital transformations they don't want to spend time doing all this heavy lifting I'm talk about that a little bit and where you guys fit yeah I mean you know I say to my customers to not to knock our competition but you can't have a service processor as the inter communication point between what the customer wants and it deciding where it's going to talk to the Iranian configure it's going to be instantaneous and so we all we have we don't have any Java we don't have any flash we don't have any hosts we don't have massive servers around the data center collecting information we just have an html5 interface and so our time to deployment is very very quick when we land on the customer's dark the box goes in we hook up the power we put the drives in we're Haiti's the word V talk because it brings back memories for a lot of course I am now we're going back in time right knowing that main here and so we're very dynamic both in how we forward face the customers but also on the backend for ourselves we eat our own dog food in the sense that we are we have an automation team we've automated our migration from non infinite out platforms towards that uses some level of artificial intelligence we've also built a lot of parameters around things like going with ServiceNow and custom sites because well you can do with our API what other people take you know page and page of code I'll give you an example one of our customers said I need OC i the the let-up management product we called met up and they said hey listen you know it usually takes six months to get an appointment and that it takes at least six months to do the comb we said no no we're not like any other storage render we don't have all these silly raid groups and spare disk capacity you know this weave three commands we can show in the API and we showed them the light Wow can you send us an array we said no we can do something better we were designed SDS right when when infinite out was coded there was no hardware and the reason we did that is because software developers will always code to the level of resilience of the hardware so if you take away that Hardware the software developers have to code to make something to withstand any type of hardware that comes in and at the end of the coding process that's when we started bringing in the hardware pieces so we were written STS we can send vendors and customers a an OVA a virtual appliance of our box they were able to the in a week they told the custom we have to go through full QA no reason why it wouldn't work and they did it for us and got it was a massive customer of theirs and ours that's a powerful story the time to deployment for your homegrown apps as well as things like ServiceNow an MCI incredible infinite out three API calls we were done so you guys had a little share our partnership with met up in the field we did yeah I mean was great they had a massive license with this particular customer they wanted our storage on the platform and we worked very very quickly with them they were very accommodating and we'd love to get our storage qualified behind their behind their heads right now for another customer as well so yeah there's definitely some sooner people realize what we have a Splunk massive for us what we're able to do was plunk in one box where people the competitors can't do in a row so it so it's very compelling what we actually bring in how we do it and that API level is incredibly powerful and we're utilizing that ourselves I would like to see some integration with canonical Marshall what these guys have done a great job with SDS plays we'd like to bring that here do spinnaker do collect if I could do some of those things as well that we're working on the automation we just added another employee another FTE to the automation team and infinite out so we do these and we engage with customers and we help you get out of that trench that is antiquity and move forward into the you know into the vision of how you do one thing well and it permeates the cloud on primary and hybrid all those guys well that API philosophy that you have in the infrastructure is code model that you just described allows you to build out your ecosystem in a really fast way so Greg thanks so much for coming on thank you and doing that double click with this really I'd love to have you back great thanks a lot Dave all right thank you welcome thank you for watching you're watching the cube and this is Dave Volante we'll see you next time

(upbeat music) >> From our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California, this is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everyone, welcome to Palo Altos Cube Studios for CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier, co-host of theCUBE. We're with Kevin Ackroyd, CEO of Cision, CUBE Alumni. He's been on before. Building one of the most compelling companies that's disrupting and changing the game in Comms, advertising, PR, with Cloud technologies. Kevin, great to see you again, thanks for coming in. >> Likewise John, It's really good to be back. >> So, we haven't chatted in two years. You've been busy. Our last conversation was the beginning of 2017. Cision's done a lot of interesting things. You've got a lot of M and A under your belt. You're putting this portfolio together with Cloud technologies. Really been interesting. I really got to say I think you cracked the code on I think a new reality, a new economic reality. Also new capabilities for comms folks. Congratulations. >> Thank you, it's been a fun ride. >> So give us the update. So two years since we talked, how many deals, companies have you bought? What's the headcount, what's the revenue? Give us an update. >> In the four years, 12 acquisitions, seven of which have happened since I've been here. Up to 4,500 employees in over 40 countries. Customer count has grown to over 50,000 customers globally. Revenue's kind of gone from 500s to just shy of 800 million. A lot of leadership changes, and as you just mentioned, pretty seismic change, finally. We've certainly been the catalyst and the cattle prod for that seismic change around tech, data, measurement and analytics finally becoming mature and adopted inside this line of business like the Chief Communication Officer, the earn media folks. To say that they were not tech savvy a few years ago would be an understatement. So, a lot's been going on. >> Yeah, and certainly the trend is your friend, in my opinion, for you. But I think the reality is not yet upon people's general mindset. It's coming quickly, so if you look at some of the big trends out there. Look at fake news, look at Facebook, look at the Google effect. Elizabeth Warren wants to break up Big Tech, Amazon. Cloud computing, in that time period that you were, prior to just going to Cision, you had Oracle Cloud, done a lot of great things on the Marketing Cloud side. But the timing of Cloud computing, the timing of how media has changed. There's not many journalists anymore. We had Andy Cunningham, a legendary industry veteran, formerly of Cunningham Communications. He did the PR for Steve Jobs. You said, there's no more journalists, a few left, but you got to tell your story direct to the consumer. >> You do. >> This is now a new marketing phenomenon. This is a tailwind for you at Cision because you guys, although put these cubbies together, have a unique vision around bringing brand value advertising at PR economics. >> Yeah, that's a good way to put it. >> Tell us the vision of Cision and specifically the shift that's happening. Why are you guys important? What wave are you riding? >> So, there's a couple shifts, John. You and I have talked about this in previous programs There's this shift of the line of business, having to work in a whole bunch of non-integrated point solutions. The CFO used to live in 17 different applications from 17 vendors. That's all squished together. Now I buy from one Cloud platform, right, from Oracle or SAP. Same thing happened in Human Capital Management. 22 things squished into the Cloud, one from Workday, right. Same thing happened, you had 25 different things for sales and service. That all squished together, into one CRM in the Cloud, I buy from Salesforce, right. And our last rodeo, the early part of this stack, it was me and Adobe battling it out for the right to go squish the entire the LUMAscape into a marketing cloud, right, so there could be one ring to rule them all for the CMO. So, it happens in every single category. It just hasn't had over here, happened on the earned media side and the Chief Communications Officer. So, bringing the tech stack so that now we are for the CCO what Adobe is for the CMO what Salesforce is for the CRO, Workday is for the CHRO. That has to happen. You can't do, you can't manage it this way without sophisticated tech, without automation, without integration, you can't do it. The second thing that had to happen, especially in marketing and advertising, they all figured out how to get revenue credit. Advertising was a slow single-digit CAGR industry for 50 years. And then something happened. After 5% CAGR for 50 years, and then something happened over the next 10 years. Digital paid went from like 15 billion to 150 billion. And what happened is that old, I know half my advertising is wasted on this one half. That went bye-bye. Now I know immediately, down to the page, down the ad unit, down to this, exactly what worked, right. When I was able to put Pixels on ads, John, you'd go to that page, Pixel would go on you, It would follow you around If you ended up putting something in the e-commerce shop that ad got credit. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying that's how the entire-- >> But that's how the infrastructure would let you, allowed you, it enabled you to do that. Then again, paid advertising, paid search, paid advertising, that thing has created massive value in here. >> Massive value. But my buyer, right, so the person that does the little ad on the most regional tech page got credit. My buyer that got Bob Evans, the Cloud King, to write an article about why Microsoft is going to beat AWS, he's a credible third party influencer, writing objectively. That article's worth triple platinum and has more credibility than 20,000 Microsoft sales reps. We've never, until Cision, well let's Pixel that, let's go figure out how many of those are the target audience. Let's ride that all the way down to the lead form that's right. Basically it's super simple. Nobody's ever tracked the press releases, the articles or any of the earned media content, the way people have tracked banner ads or e-commerce emails. Therefore this line of business never get revenue credit. It stayed over here in the OpEx pile where things like commerce and advertising got dumped onto the revenue pile. Well, you saw the crazy investment shift. So, that's really the more important one, is Comms is finally getting quantified ROI and business's attribution like their commerce and advertising peers for the first time ever in 2018 via what Cision's rolled out. That's the exciting piece. >> I think, I mean, I guess what I hear you saying is that for the first time, the PR actually can be measured, similar to how advertising >> You got it. >> Couldn't be measured then be measured. Now PR or communications can be measured. >> They get measured the same way. And then one other thing. That ad, that press release, down to the business event. This one had $2 million dollars of ad spend, this one had no ad spend. When it goes to convert, in CRM or it goes to convert on a website, this one came from banner ad, this one came from credible third party content. Guess which one, not only had zero ad spend instead of $2 million in ad spend. Guess which one from which source actually converts better. It's the guy that chose to read credible third-party article. He's going to convert in the marketing system way better that somebody who just clicked on the ad. >> Well certainly, I'm biased-- >> So all the way down the funnel, we're talking about real financial impact based on capturing earned media ID, which is pretty exciting. >> Well, I think the more exciting thing is that you're basically taking a value that is unfunded quote by the advertising firm, has no budget basically, or thin budgets, trying to hit an organic, credible outlet which is converting in progression to a buyer, an outcome. That progression is now tracked. But let's just talk about the economics because you're talking about $2 million in spend, it could be $20 million. The ratio between ad spend and conversion to this new element you mentioned is different. You're essentially talking about the big mega trend, which is organic content. Meaning connecting to sources. >> That's right. >> That flow. Of course, we believe and we, at the Cube, everyone's been seeing that with our business. Let's talk about that dynamic because this is not a funded operationalized piece yet, so we've been seeing, in the industry, PR and comms becoming more powerful. So, the Chief Communication Officer isn't just rolling out press releases, although they have to do that to communicate. You've got medium posts now, you've got multiple channels. A lot of places to put the story. So the Chief Communication Officer really is the Chief Storyteller Officer, Not necessarily the CMO. >> Emphatically. >> The Martech Stack kind of tracking. So talk about that dynamic. How is the Chief Communication Officer role change or changing? Why is that important and what should people be thinking about, if they are a Chief Communication Officer? >> You know, it's interesting. There's a, I'm just going to call it an actual contradiction on this front. When you and I were getting out of our undergrad, 7 out of 10 times that CCO, the Chief Communication Officer, worked for the CEO and 30% of time other. Yet the role was materially narrow. The role has exploded. You just said it pretty eloquently. This role has really exploded and widened its aperture. Right now though 7 out of 10 of them actually do work for the CMO, which is a pretty interesting contradiction. And only 30% of them work for the CEO. Despite the fact that from an organizational stand point, that kind of counter intuitive org move has been made. It doesn't really matter because, so much of what you just said too, you was in marketing's purview or around brand or around reputation or around telling the story or around even owning the key assets. Key assets isn't that beautiful Budweiser frog commercial they played on Super Bowl anymore. The key assets are what's getting done over in the communications, in part. So, from a storytelling standpoint, from an ownership of the narrative, from a, not just a product or a service or promotion, but the whole company, the whole brand reputation, the goodwill, all of that is comms. Therefore you're seeing comms take the widest amount of real estate around the boardroom table than they've ever had. Despite the fact that they don't sit in the chair as much. I mentioned that just because I find it very interesting. Comms has never been more empowered, never had a wider aperture. >> But budget wise, they're not really that loaded up with funding. >> And to my earlier point, it's because they couldn't show. Super strategic. Showing ROI. >> So, showing ROI is critical. >> Not the quality of clippings. >> It was the Maslow of Hierarchy of Needs if you can just show me that I put a quarter in and I got a dollar out. Like the ads and the e-commerce folks do. It simply drives the drives me. >> So take us through some of those analytics because people who know about comms, the old school comms people who are doing this, they should really be thinking about what their operation is because, can I get an article in the Wall Street Journal? Can Silicon Angle write about us? I've got to get more clippings. That tend to be the thing. Did we get the press release out on time? They're not really tied into some of the key marketing mix pieces. They tend to be kind of a narrow scope. Those metrics were pretty clear. What are the new metrics? What's the new operational playbook.? >> Yeah, we call those Vanity Metrics. I cared about theoretical reach. Hey, Yahoo tells me I reached 222 billion people, so I plug in 222 billion people. I reached more people than there are on the planet with this PR campaign. I needed to get to the basic stuff like how many people did I actually reach, number one. But they don't, they do theoretical reach. They work in things like sentiment. Well, I'm going to come up with, 100 reporters wrote about me. I'm going to come up with, how many of them I thought were positive, negative, neutral. Sentiment analysis, they measure number of reporters or hits versus their competitors and say, Proctor and Gamble rolled out this diaper product, how did I do this five days? How much did Proctor and Gamble diapers get written about versus Craft diapers versus Unilever's. Share a voice. Not irrelevant metrics. But not metrics the CEO and the CFO are going to invest in. >> Conversion to brand or sales, those kind of things? >> They never just never existed. Those never existed. Now when we can introduce the same exact metrics that the commerce and the ad folks do and say, I can tell you exactly how many people. I can tell you exactly who they were, demographic, firmographic, lifestyle, you name it. I can tell you who the audience is you're reaching. I can tell you exactly what they do. When those kind of people read those kind of articles or those kind of people read those kind of press releases, they go to these destinations, they take these behaviors. And because I can track that all the way down to whatever that success metric is, which could be a lead form if I'm B2B for pipe. It could be a e-commerce store from B2C. It could be a rating or review or a user generation content gourd. It could be a sign up and register, if I'm trying to get database names. Whatever the business metric is. That's what the commerce and the ad people do all day every day. That's why they are more funded than ever. The fact that press releases, articles, tweets, blogs, the fact that the earned media stuff has never been able to do those things is why they just continue to suffer and have had a real lack of investment prices going on for the last 20 year. >> Talk about the trend around-- >> It's simple stuff. >> I know, if you improve the ROI, you get more budget. >> It really is that simple. >> That's been the challenge. I think PR is certainly becoming, comms is becoming more powerful. People know I talk about it all the time. I think comms is the new CMO I think command and control and organic content work together in the organic. We've seen it first hand in our business. But, it's an issue of tech savviness and also vision. A lot of people just are uncomfortable shifting to the new realities. >> That's for sure. >> What are some of the people tech savvy look at when they look at say revamping comms platform or strategy versus say old school? >> I'll give you two answers on that, John. Here is one thing that is good for us, that 7 out of 10 to the CCOs work for the CMO. Because when I was in this seat starting to light that fire under the CMO for the first time, which was not that long ago, and they were not tech savvy, and they were not sophisticated. They didn't know how to do this stuff either. That was a good 10 year journey to get the CMO from not sophisticated to very sophisticated. Now they're one of the more sophisticated lines of business in the world. But that was a slog. >> So are we going to see a Comms Stack? Like Martech, ComTech. >> ComTech is the decision communication Cloud, is ComTech. So we did it. We've built the Cloud stack. Again like I said, just like Adobe has the tech stack for marketing, Cision has the tech stack for comms, and we've replicated that. But because the CCO works for the CMO and the CMO's already been through this. Been through this with Ad Techs, been through this with MarTech, been through this with eCommerce, been through this with Web. You know, I've got a three or four year sophistication path this time just because >> The learnings are there >> The company's already done it everywhere else. The boss has already done it everywhere else. >> So the learnings are there from the MarTech so it's a pretty easy leap to take? >> That's exactly right. >> It's just-- >> How CommTech works is shocking. Incredibly similar to how MarTech and AdTech work. A lot of it is the same technology, just being applied different. >> That's good news >> So, the adoption curve for us is a fantastic thing. It's a really good thing for us that 70% of them work for CMOs because the CMO is the most impatient person on the planet, to get this over because the CMO is sick of doing customer journeys or omni channel across just paid and owned. They recognize that the most influential thing to influence you, it's not their emails, it's not their push notifications, It's not their ads. It's recognizing which credible third-party content you read, getting them into that, so that they're influencing you. >> It's kind of like Google PageRank in the old days. This source is more relevant than that one, give it more weight. >> And now all of a sudden if I have my Cision ID, I can plug in the more weight stuff under your profile. I want to let him go across paid and owned too, I materially improve the performance of the paid and owned because I'm putting in the really important signal versus what's sitting over there in the DMP or the CDP, which is kind of garbage. That's really important. >> I really think. >> I thinks you've got a home run here. I think you've really cracked the code on this. I think you are absolutely right on the money with comms and CommsTech. I see it all the time. In my years of experiences, it's so obvious. Then again, the tailwind is that they've been through the MarTech. The question I have for you is cultural shift. That's a big one. So, I'm out evangelizing all the time about the CUBE Cloud and some of the things we're doing. I run into the deer in the headlights on one side, what do you mean? And then people like, I believe, I totally understand. The believers and the non believers. What's the cultural shift? Because some chief comms op, they're very savvy, progressive, we've got to make the shift. How do they get the ship to turn? What are some of the cultural challenges? >> And boy is that right. I felt the same thing, getting more doing it with the CMO. A lot of people kept their head in the sand until they got obsoleted. They didn't know. Could they not see the train coming? They didn't want to see the train coming. Now you go look at the top 100 CMOs in the world today. Pretty different bunch than who those top 100 CMOs were 10 years ago. Really different bunch. History's repeating itself over here too. You've got the extremely innovative CCOs that are driving that change and transformation. You've got the deer in the headlight, okay, I know I need to do this, but I'm not sure how, and you do have your typical, you know, nope, I've got my do not disturb sign and police tape over my office. I won't even let you in my door. I don't want to hear about it. You've got all flavors. The good news is we are well past the half point where the innovators are starting actually to deploy and show results, the deer in the headlights are starting to innovate, and these folks are at least opening up the door and taking down some tape. >> Is there pressure on the agency side now? A lot of agencies charge a lot of monthly billings for these clients, the old school thing. Some are trying to be progressive and do more services. Have you seen, with the Cision Cloud and things that you're doing, that you're enabling, those agencies seem to be more productive? >> Yes. >> Are the client's putting pressure on those agencies so they see more value? Talk about the agency dynamic. >> That's also a virtuous cycle too, right? That cycle goes from, it's a Bell Curve. At the beginning of the bell curve, customers have no clue about the communications. They go to their agencies for advice. So, you have to educate the agencies on how to say nice things about you. By the time you're at the Bell Curve, the client's know about the tech or they've adopted the tech, and the agencies realize, oh, I can monetize the hell out of this. They need strategy and services and content and creative and campaign. This is yet another good old fashioned >> High gross profit. >> A buck for the tech means six bucks for me as the service agency. At the bottom, over here, I'll never forget this when we did our modern marketing experiences, Erik, the CMO of Clorox said, hey, to all you agencies out there, now that we're mature, you know, we choose our our agency based on their fluency around our tech stack. So it goes that violently and therefore, the agencies really do need to try to get fluent. The ones that do, really reap rewards because there is a blatant amount of need as the line of business customer tries to get from here to here. And the agency is the is the very first place that that customer is going to go to. >> So, basically the agency-- >> The customer has first right of refusal to go provide these services and monetize them. >> So, the agency has to keep up. >> They certainly do. >> Because, if the game gets changed by speed, it's accelerated >> If they keep up, yup. >> Value is created. If they don't have their running shoes on, they're out. >> If they keep up and they stay fluent, then they're going to be great. The last thing back in the things. We've kind of hit this. This is one of those magic points I've been talking about for 20 years. When the CFO or the CEO or the CMO walk down to the CCOs office and say, where are we on this, 'cause it's out in the wild now, there are over 1200 big brands doing this measurement, Cision ID, CommsTech stuff. It's getting written about by good old fashioned media. Customer says, wow, I couldn't do this for 50 years, now I am, and look what I just did to my Comms program. That gets read. The world's the same place as it always has been. You and I read that. We go down to our comms department and say, wow, I didn't know that was possible, where are we on this? So the Where Are We On This wave is coming to communications, which is an accelerant. >> It's an accountability-- >> Now it's accountability, and therefore, the urgency to get fluent and changed. So now they're hiring up quantums and operations and statisticians and database people just like the marketers did. The anatomy of a communications department is starting to like half science half art, just like happened in marketing. Whereas before that, it was 95% art and 5% science. But it's getting to be 50/50. >> Do you have any competition? >> We have, just like always. >> You guys pretty much have PR Newswire, a lot of big elements there. >> We do. >> You've got a good foothold. >> This is just an example. Even though Marketo is part of Adobe, giant. And Eloqua is part of Oracle, giant and Pardot is part of Salesforce. You've got three goliaths in marketing automation. Hubspot's still sticking around. PeerPlay, marketing Automation. You can just picture it. CRM giants, Microsoft and Salesforce have eaten the world Zendesk's still kicking around. It's a little PeerPlay. That equivalent exists. I have nobody that's even one fifth as big as I am, or as global or complete. But I do have some small, point specific solution providers. They're still hanging out there. >> The thing is, one, first you're a great leader. You've seen the moving on the marking tech side. You've got waves of experience under your belt. But I think what's interesting is that like the Web 1.0, having websites and webpages, Web 2.0 and social networks. That was about the first generation. Serve information, create Affiliate programs, all kind of coded tracking. You mentioned all that. I over-simplified it, but you get the idea. Now, every company needs a new capability. They need to stand up media infra structure. What does that mean? They're going to throw a podcast, they're going to take their content, put them into multiple channels. That's a comms function. Now comms is becoming the new CMO-like capability in this earned channel. So, your Cloud becomes that provisioning entity for companies to stand up capabilities without waiting. Is that the vision? >> You've nailed it. And that is one of the key reasons why you have to have a tech stack. That's a spot on one, another one. Early in my career, the 20 influences that mattered, they were all newspaper reporters or TV folks. There was only 20 of them. I had a Rolodex. so I could take each one of them out for a three Martini lunch, they'd write something good about me. >> Wish is was that easy now. >> Now, you have thousands of influencers across 52 channels, and they change in real time, and they're global in nature. It's another example of where, well, if you don't automate that with tech and by the way. >> You're left behind. >> If you send out digital content they talk back to you in real time. You have to actually not only do influencer identification, outreach and curation, you've got to do real time engagement. >> There's no agility. >> There's none. >> Zero agility. >> None, exactly. >> There's no like Dev Ops mindset in there at all. >> Then the speed with which, it's no longer okay for comms to call the agency and say, give me a ClipBook, I've got to get it to my CEO by Friday. That whole start the ClipBook on Tuesday, I've got to have the ClipBook, the physical ClipBook on the CEO as an example. Nope, if I'm not basically streaming my senior executives in real time, curated and analyzed as to what's important and what it means, I can't do that without a tech stack. >> Well, Andy Cunningham was on the Cube. >> This whole thing has been forced to get modernized by cloud technology and transformation >> Andy Cunningham, a legend in the comms business who did all Steve Jobs comms, legend. She basically said on The Cube, it's not about waiting for the clips to create the ClipBook, create your own ClipBook and get it out there. Then evaluate and engage. This is the new command and control with digital assets. >> Now, it's become the real-time, curated feed that never stops. It sure as hell better not. Because comms is in trouble if it does. >> Well this is a great topic. But let's have you in this, I can go deep on this. I think this is a really important shift, and you guys are the only ones that are on it at this level. I don't think the Salesforce and the Adobe yet, I don't think they're nimble enough to go after this wave. I think they're stuck on their wave and they're making a lot of money. >> You know John, paid media and owned media. The Google Marketing Cloud, that SAP Marketing Cloud, Adobe, Oracle, Salesforce Marketing Clouds. They don't do anything in earned. Nothing. This is one of the reasons I jumped because I knew this needed to happen. But, you know, they're also chasing much bigger pots of money. Marketing and Advertising is still a lot more money. We're working on it to grow the pie for comms. But, bottom line is, they're chasing the big markets as I was at Oracle. And they're still pretty much in a violent arms race against each other. Salesforce is still way more focused on what Adobe's doing. >> You're just on a different wave. >> So, we're just over here doing this, building a billion dollar cloud leader, that is mission critical to everyone of their customers. They're going to end up being some pretty import partners to us, because they've been too focused on the big arms race against each other, in paid and owned and have not had the luxury to even go here. >> Well I think this wave that you're on is going to be really big. I think they don't see it, in my opinion, or can't get there. With the right surfboard, to use a surfing analogy, there's going to be a big wave. Thanks for sharing your insights. >> Absolutely. >> While you're here, get the plug in for Cision. What's going on, what's next? What's the big momentum? Get the plug in for the company. What are you guys still going to do? >> Plugin for the company. The company has acquired a couple of companies in January. You might see, one of which is Falcon. Basically Falcon is one of the big four in the land of Hootsuite, Sprinklr, Spredfast. Cloud companies do this. Adobe has Creative Cloud, Document Cloud, Parking Cloud. Salesforce has Sales Cloud, Service Cloud, Marketing Cloud. Cision has just become a multi cloud company. We now have the Cision Social Cloud and the Cision Communications Cloud. And we're going to go grab a couple hundred million dollars of stuff away from Sprinklr, Hootsuite and collapse social into this. Most of social is earned as well. So, look for a wing spread, into another adjacent market. I think that's number one. Then look for publishing of the data. That's probably going to be the most exciting thing because we just talked about, again our metrics and capabilities you can buy But, little teaser. If we can say, in two months here's the average click through on a Google ad, YouTube ad, a banner ad, I'll show it to you on a Blog, a press release, an article. Apples to apples. Here is the conversion rate. If I can start becoming almost like an eMarketer or publisher on what happens when people read earned, there's going to be some unbelievable stats and they're going to be incredibly telling, and it's going to drive where are we on that. So this is going to be the year. >> It's a new digital advertising format. It's a new format. >> That's exactly right. >> It's a new digital advertising format. >> And its one when the CEO understands that he or she can have it for earned now, the way he's had it for marketing and advertising, that little conversation walking down the hall. In thousands of companies where the CCO or the VP of PR looks up and the CEO is going where are we on that? That's the year that that can flip switches, which I'm excited about. >> Every silo function is now horizontally connected with data, now measured, fully instrumented. The value will be there and whoever can bring the value gets the budget. That's the new model. Kevin Ackroyd, CEO of Cision, changing the game in the shift around the Chief Communications Officer and how that is becoming more tech savvy. Really disrupting the business by measuring earned media. A big wave that's coming. Of course, it's early, but it's going to be a big one. Kevin, thanks for coming on. >> My pleasure, John, thank you. >> So, CUBE conversation here in Palo Alto Thanks for watching. >> Thanks John. (upbeat music)

[Music] hi I'm Peter Burris and welcome to another Cube conversation from the cube studios here in beautiful Palo Alto California today we're going to talk about some new things that are happening in the security world obviously this is one of the most important domains within the technology industry and increasingly because of digital business in business overall now to do that we've asked Eric manki to come back Derick is the chief of security insights and global threat alliances at Fort Net Derek welcome back to the cube absolutely the same feel the same way Derek okay so we're going to get into some some predictions about what the bad guys are doing and some predictions about what the defenses are doing how we're going to see them defense opportunities improve but let's set the stage because predictions always are made on some platforms some understanding of where we are and that has also changed pretty dramatically so what's the current state in the overall security world Derek yeah so what we saw this year in 2019 a lot is a big increase on automation and I'm talking from an attackers point of view I think we talked about this a little bit earlier in the year so what we've been seeing is the use of frameworks to enhance sort of the day-to-day cycles that cyber criminals and attackers are using to make their you know criminal operations is that much more efficient sort of a well-oiled machine so we're seeing toolkits that are taking you know things within the attack cycle and attack change such as reconnaissance penetration you know exploitation getting into systems and just making that that much quicker so that that window to attack the time to breach has been shrinking thanks to a lot of these crime kits and services that are offered out there now one other comment on this or another question that I might have on this is that so speed is becoming an issue but also the risk as digital business takes on a larger four portion of overall business activities that ultimately the risks and costs of doing things wrong is also going up if I got the right yeah absolutely for sure and you know it's one of those things that it's the longer that a cybercriminal has a foothold in your system or has the opportunity to move laterally and gain access to other systems maybe it's your I o T or you know other other platforms the higher the risk right like the deeper down they are within an attack cycle the higher the risk and because of these automated toolkits are allowing allowing them to facilitate that it's a catalyst really right they can get into the system they can actually get out that much quicker the risk is a much higher and we're talking about risk we're talking about things like intellectual property exfiltration client information this sort of stuff that can be quite damaging to organizations so with the new foundation of speed is becoming an increasingly important feature probably think about security and the risks are becoming greater because digital assets are being recognized as more valuable why do you take us through some of the four Donets predictions on some of the new threats or the threat landscape how's the threat landscape changing yeah so as I said we've already seen this shift in automation so what I would call the basics I mean knowing the target trying to break into that target right when it comes to breaking into the target cyber criminals right now they're following the path of least resistance right they're finding easy ways that they can get into IOT devices I into other systems in our world when we talk about penetration or breaking into systems it's through zero days right so the idea of a zero day is essentially a cyber weapon there's movies and Hollywood that have been made off of this you look at attacks like Stuxnet in the past they all use zero day vulnerabilities to get into systems all right so the idea of one of the predictions we're seeing is that cyber criminals are gonna start to use artificial intelligence right so we talk about machine learning models and artificial intelligence to actually find these zero days for them so in the world of an attacker to find a zero day they have to do a practice called fuzzing and fuzzing is basically trying to trick up computer code right so you're throwing unverified parameters out at your turn T of throwing and unanticipated sequences into code parameters and and input validation and so forth to the point that the code crashes and that's from an attackers point of view that's when you take control of that code this how you know finding weapons into system cyber weapons in this systems work it typically takes a lot of a lot of resource it takes a lot of cycles it takes a lot of intelligence that takes a lot of time to discovery we can be talking on month for longer it's one of the predictions that we're hitting on is that you know cyber criminals are gonna start to use artificial intelligence fuzzing or AI F as I call it to be able to use AI to do all of that you know intelligent work for them so you know basically having a system that will find these gateways if you will these these you know new vulnerabilities into systems so sustained use of AI F to corrupt models so that they can find vulnerabilities that can then be exploited yeah absolutely and you know when it comes to the world of hacking and fuzzing it's one of the toughest things to do it is the reason that zero days are worth so much money you know they can suffer hundreds of thousands of dollars on darknet and in the cyber criminal you know economy so it's because they're talk talk to finally take a lot of resources a lot of intelligence and a lot of effort to be able to not only find the vulnerability but then actively attack it and exploit it right there's two phases to that yeah so the idea is by using part of the power of artificial intelligence that cyber criminals will start to leverage that and harness it in a bad way to be able to not only discover you know these vulnerabilities but also create that weapon right create the exploit so that they can find more you know more holes if you will or more angles to be able to get into systems now another one is that virtualization is happening in you know what the good guys as we virtualized resources but is it also being exploited or does it have the potential be exploited by the bad guys as well especially in a swarming approach yeah virtualization for sure absolutely so the thing about virtualization too is you often have a lot of virtualization being centralizes especially when we talk about cloud right so you have a lot of potential digital assets you know valuable digital assets that could be physically located in one area so when it comes to using things like artificial intelligence fuzzing not only can it be used to find different vulnerabilities or ways into systems it can also be combined with something like I know we've talked about the const that's warm before so using you know multiple intelligence infected pieces of code that can actually try to break into other virtual resources as well so virtualization asked definitely it because of in some cases close proximity if you will between hypervisors and things like this it's also something of concern for sure now there is a difference between AI fai fuzzing and machine learning talk to us a little bit about some of the trends or some of the predictions that pertain to the advancement of machine learning and how bad guys are going to exploit that sure so machine learning is a core element that is used by artificial intelligence right if you think of artificial intelligence it's a larger term it can be used to do intelligent things but it can only make those decisions based off of a knowledge base right and that's where machine learning comes into place machine learning is it's data it's processing and it's time right so there's various machine learning learning models that are put in place it can be used from everything from autonomous vehicles to speech recognition to certainly cybersecurity and defense that we can talk about but you know the other part that we're talking about in terms of reductions is that it can be used like any tool by the bad guys so the idea is that machine learning can be used to actually study code you know from from a black hat attacker point of view to studying weaknesses in code and that's the idea of artificial intelligence fuzzing is that machine learning is used to find software flaws it finds the weak spots in code and then it actually takes those sweet spots and it starts probing starts trying to attack a crisis you know to make the code crash and then when it actually finds that it can crash the code and that it can try to take advantage of that that's where the artificial intelligence comes in right so the AI engine says hey I learned that this piece of software or this attack target has these weak pieces of code in it that's for the AI model so the I fuzzy comes into place to say how can I actually take advantage how can i exploit this right so that's where the AI trussing comes into play so we've got some predictions about how black hats and bad guys are going to use AI and related technologies to find new vulnerabilities new ways of exploiting things and interacting new types of value out of a business what are the white hats got going for them what are their some of the predictions on some of the new classes of defense that we're going to be able to put to counter some of these new classes of attacks yeah so that's that's you know that's honestly some of the good news I believe you know it's always been an armor an arms race between the bad guys and the good guys that's been going on for decades in terms of cybersecurity often you know the the bad guys are in a favorable position because they can do a million things wrong and they don't care right from the good guys standpoint we can do a million things right one thing wrong and that's an issue so we have to be extra diligent and careful with what we do but with that said you know as an example of 49 we've deployed our forty guard AI right so this is six years in the making six years using machine learning using you know precise models to get higher accuracy low false positives to deploy this at reduction so you know when it comes to the defensive mechanism I really think that we're in the drivers position quite frankly we have better technology than the Wild West that they have out on the bad guys side you know from an organization point of view how do you start combating this sort of onslaught of automation in AI from from the bad guys side well you gotta fight fire with fire right and what I mean by that is you have to have an intelligent security system you know perimeter based firewalls and gateways they don't cut it anymore right you need threat intelligence you need systems that are able to orchestrate and automate together so in different security products and in your security stack or a security fabric that can talk to each other you know share intelligence and then actually automate that so I'm talking about things like creating automated security policies based off of you know threat intelligence finding that a potential threat is trying to get into your network that sort of speed through that integration on the defensive side that intelligence speed is is is the key for it I mean without that any organization is gonna be losing the arms race and I think one of the things that is also happening is we're seeing a greater willingness perhaps not to share data but to share information about the bad things that are happening and I know that fort and it's been something at the vanguard of ensuring that there's even better clearing for this information and then driving that back into code that actually further automates how customers respond to things if I got that right yeah you hit a dead-on absolutely you know that is one of the key things that were focused on is that we realized we can't win this war alone right nobody can on a single point of view so we're doing things like interoperating with security partners we have a fabric ready program as an example we're doing a lot of work in the industry working with as an example Interpol and law enforcement to try to do attribution but though the whole endgame what we're trying to do is to the strategy is to try to make it more expensive for cyber criminals to operate so we obviously do that as a vendor you know through good technology our security fabric I integrated holistic security fabric and approach to be able to make it tougher you know for attackers to get into systems but at the same time you know we're working with law enforcement to find out who these guys are to go after attribution prosecution cut off the head of the snake as I call it right to try to hit cyber criminal organizations where it hurts we're also doing things across vendor in the industry like cyber threat Alliance so you know forty knots a founding member of the cyber threat Alliance we're working with other security vendors to actually share real time information is that speed you know message that we're talking about earlier to share real time information so that each member can take that information and put it into you something actionable right in our case when we get intelligence from other vendors in the cyber threat Alliance as an example we're putting that into our security fabric to protect our customers in new real-time so in sum we're talking about a greater value from being attacked being met with a greater and more cooperative use of technology and process to counter those attacks all right yeah absolutely so open collaboration unified collaboration is is definitely key when it comes to that as well you know the other thing like I said is is it's the is the technology piece you know having integration another thing from the defensive side too which is becoming more of a topic recently is deception deception techniques this is a fascinating area to me right because the idea of deception is the way it sounds instead of to deceive criminals when they're coming knocking on your door into your network so it's really what I call like the the house of a thousand mirrors right so they get into your network and they think they're going to your data store but is it really your data store right it's like it's there's one right target and a thousand wrong targets it's it's a it's a defensive strategy that organizations can play to try to trip up cyber criminals right it makes them slower it makes them more inaccurate it makes them go on the defensive and back to the drawing board which is something absolutely I think we have to do so it's very interesting promising you know technology moving forward in 2019 to essentially fight back against the cyber criminals and to make it more expensive to get access to whatever it is that they want Derek max Lilly yeah Derrick McKey chief of security insights and global threat Alliance this is for net thanks once again for being on the cube it's a pleasure anytime look forward to the next chat and from Peter Burroughs and all of us here at the cube in Palo Alto thank you very much for watching this cube conversation until next time you