(gentle music) >> Good afternoon, cloud community and welcome back to fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. We are at AWS re:Invent. It's our fourth day, it's in the afternoon. We've got two more segments left. This is a serious marathon, but it's so exciting, it's kept my brain super curious. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by Paul Gillan today. Paul- >> Hello Savannah. >> Are you as excited about how much we've learned this week as I am? >> I am. It's just taking, my mind is just bursting with all the new information I've absorbed over the last three days. Amazing talking to all these smart people. >> It has really been so cool. >> And learning about all the permutations that we to think about cloud but there are so many businesses that have been built around the cloud, around making the cloud easier to use, supporting cloud as our next guest can talk about, that there's this whole ecosystem element that we don't hear about so much, but it's very much the foundation of the people who are here. >> Speaking of ecosystem, our next guest, please welcome Garrett to the show. Runs Ecosystem for Console Connect. How you doing Eric? >> I'm doing very well. >> Savannah: Garrett, sorry. Excuse me. >> No worries. >> Few names on the show today. >> Garrett: I'm sure. >> I do know your name, my mouth just doesn't want to, just doesn't want to participate today. Have you had a great show so far? >> It's been fantastic. You know, the AWS re:Invent show has always been a fantastic event, so. >> You're a veteran. You're also a CUBE alumni, which is great. >> Yes. Thank you for having me back. Thank you for your time. I most appreciated it. >> Yeah. We love having you. It's going to be great. We'll, we'll try and do even better each time we have you on the show. So just in case those listening are unfamiliar with Console Connect, give us the pitch. >> Okay, so Console Connect is our software defined interconnect platform. We also provide what we call network as a service. This allows our customers and partners to take advantage of our global private network on a pay as you go basis. Scalable and flexible. When you're not using the service, you can turn it off. So you only pay as you go. >> What a novel idea. >> Yes, yes. In the past you would have to have a year or multi-year contract. So we're making our services match cloud offerings around the world. The platform itself is in more than a thousand data centers all around the globe. >> Savannah: Just a couple. >> Yes, just a few. We have about 45 terabits of network behind it. It's all on our private network, so none of it's accessible via the public internet and we have a meeting place which allows our existing customers and partners to reach out across the platform and share services. So one customer needs to subscribe to another customer services, they can do so right across the platform on a pay as to go basis. So it's been very exciting for us. It's been very fast, it seems to me, for the past five or six years that we've had the service. >> At what point in their cloud journey do customers typically realize they need a service like yours? If the bandwidth they're getting, their native bandwidth they're getting is insufficient. >> Yeah, and I think that's a great question. I think the customers themselves have seen a serious disconnect between their direct connections to the cloud service providers where the cloud service providers are billing by the minute. And a traditional telecommunications connection is built by the year or multi years and then you really lose control over your cloud connection when you forget about it, right? Because service is always up. The connection's always up. >> Yeah. >> And a lot of individuals in a company may have access to the cloud, that cloud service, provider service. And next thing you know, you have a runaway group of services that are running that you're paying for and you don't really realize it 'cause the connection's up, you've already paid the connection the cloud service is up, you've already paid for it. >> So how do businesses get better control over that spend or how do you help them? >> Yeah, so how we help them is our service is able to be turned off when it's not in use. So in the event that you don't need the service over a weekend or over a month, you can just turn it off and you're not paying for that. >> It sounds so simple but it actually is kind of revolutionary in the industry which is why I keep coming back to it. It's great. So we've heard a lot about hybrid cloud, multicloud. How is this increasing the complexity for customers? >> Well I think the complexity for customers has increased due to the fact that you have a multicloud requirement or you have multiple teams accessing your cloud service provider and there's no one really managing it from a central perspective. >> Savannah: They can definitely get siloed really easy. >> Yeah, and then it runs away from you and the next thing you know, you start to look at the monthly bills. But generally that happens on an annual basis. If any companies like mine, you're doing your annual reconciliation of your bills and that's when you notice something's not right. >> Yeah, definitely. I can actually see a Slack message I got once, multiple times probably. Is anyone using this service? Why does it cost us that? That's exactly what you're talking about. >> Do you integrate with the Amazon Management Console or is it a separate service? >> It's, our service is a separate service. We are APId in with AWS. You do have a single console from our platform to manage your connections to the cloud. And then once you are connected in, you would still need to use the AWS console to manage your service. They're very, let's just say no one is offering a remote console third party console yet for AWS or any other cloud service for that matter. >> How about for hybrid cloud is obviously the way, you know, the way the industry is going. How do you enable companies to manage their hybrid cloud environments more intelligently? >> Yeah, and that's another great question. We allow that, you know, we're a global company. We have global access around the world. It includes not only traditional telecommunication services but also includes satellite service as well as 5G and LTE capability to the platform. So in the event that someone is in a hyper cloud situation, they have a lot of capability to enable their services. >> You talked about network as a service, and I, we haven't had a chance to dig into it. So tell me a little bit more. How does, how can this help reduce egress charges? How, are people excited when they hear network as a service? Where are we off at on that hype curve? >> Yeah, I think it's low on the excitement scale. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> You know, network has become somewhat of a commodity in the world, like electricity or water, you know, for the most of the world. And so network as a service, what it has enabled is it has enabled the customers more control over what they're doing. 'Cause in the past, you would need weeks, if not months to get services installed. And then if you needed to make a change to that service to increase it or decrease it in accordance to your requirements, that might take a couple of days at the soonest and you know, the Console Connect platform now changed that down to a few minutes. So within a few minutes, you can enable services, turn it up, turn it down, scale up, scale down. >> Savannah: Talk about time to value. >> There's no equipment installation required? >> No, it is our private network and so there must be a direct connection to it. It's not available over the public internet. Generally, a customer will connect to us via a cross connect at a data center or they can bring in a local loop. Or our existing customers, we just flip a little switch, so to speak, software wise, and we give them access to the platform from their existing services. >> Do you work with co-location interconnects as well? >> Exactly, yes. And in fact, you can purchase those services across our platform with a lot of the co-location service providers. >> So if I'm already using a co-lo, I can deploy your service directly from that co-lo. >> Yes. Yes. >> That's very convenient. >> That is very convenient. (laughs) >> You also mentioned the ability interconnect between customers. So your customers can actually connect to each other and conduct transactions or integrate their applications. Talk about how that works. >> Yeah, so for instance, let's say you are a customer that's taking advantage of our platform and you find your network is under a DDoS attack. You can go into our meeting place, connect to one of our cloud service providers who specializes in DDoS mitigation, spin up a connection to them within a few minutes, and immediately, you can start taking care of your DDoS problem. And once it's taken care of, you turn it down. Now those types of services that are subscription based are via API into our platform so we can settle the bill for our customer on behalf of that service provider or the service provider themselves can bill that customer depending on how they want to set it up. So it's very flexible. >> It's really clever, too. I mean, especially in an instance like you just mentioned in that example, that's a moment of panic and high stress and high tension. The last thing you want to be thinking about is what's the right service provider? How quickly can I get this up and running? If I can just couple clicks, couple lines of code perhaps, or even just through the portal, be able to do it, it's pretty powerful. You mentioned that Console Connect, and I want to talk about this 'cause it's clear you care about the user experience, the community and Console Connect came out of LinkedIn DNA and you mentioned there's a social component to the platform as well. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? >> Yes, thank you for that. Yeah, so you can, as a customer or a partner, you can market directly to others on the platform using our meeting place. And you have the ability to reach out directly to people across the platform, send them a message. You have the ability to post articles, blog in one of our sections. And then the other one, you can actually go in and see all the latest activity in the platform. You can see who's the newest companies to join Console Connect. >> Savannah: Oh wow, cool. >> How do I reach out to them? And then that gives you the ability to begin either marketing across the platform or direct marketing to someone or directly just reach out and connect with them and say hey, we want to set a bilateral partnership with you. You know, how do we do that? So it's very flexible. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> Can I connect my systems to others? So if I want to plug into their eCommerce system so I can fulfill orders taken through their eCommerce system, can I enable that kind of connection? >> Oh, we're not there yet. It is coming, but we're just not there yet. >> What are the complexities? >> A lot of that is a trust issue. >> Yeah. >> You know, when you're dealing with across the globe, there are regulations in every location that must be adhered to. A lot of that is security and privacy related. And we must make sure that we are adhering to all the local regulations wherever we are. >> So it's not the technology, it's a problem, really. It's the- >> It's a regulatory issue, yeah. So the technology is there and I would say that the rest is following, it's just, it's slow when you're dealing with permits and with compliance. >> I also want to ask you, our notes here mention egress charges, which are a niggling pain point for a lot of customers. They have to pay to get their data of the cloud. How do you help with that problem? >> So how we help with this is first, we get a discount from our partners, our cloud partners, including AWS, and we pass that on to the customers. The other way is you have a full visibility of which connections you have live into those partners and you can manage that much easier through the single, I would say view. Of all of your connections. >> Savannah: Yeah. >> You can see all of your cloud connections right in the one view. And then you can do a little more digging and say are we using these, you know? Because a lot of times, you have projects that spin up and then someone forgets to spin them back down. So this helps give you that single view. But again, we get the discount that we are happy to pass on as well. >> Which is a win-win for everyone. I've using a tab analogy all show, we all we want it in one place, one tab, not all the tabs. >> Yes. I think network management and service management in any enterprise or partnership company is a real drain on resources. >> Oh yeah. And it's a waste of money. >> Garrett: Yeah. And if you're not managing correctly, yeah, you get the thing on the money. >> Are you an alternative to the direct connect services from the major cloud providers or are you a compliment to them? >> We're not competing with them, we're partnered. And so we don't see ourselves as an alternative. A lot of times, our customers come to us and they want to direct connect in a location where perhaps AWS isn't. >> Paul: Doesn't have a point of presence. >> Exactly. Right. We give them that flexibility of, yes you can directly connect here. And then the other approach that we like to take is we like to give our customers the choice of not only data center, but also region. So a lot of times egress charges are can be calculated across regions as well and that can really add up for our customer. Whereas if you have multiple egress locations, you're not transferring data across a region on the AWS platform or another cloud service platform. You can egress at that location and then take it across your own network or take it across our network and then your egress charges will be more reasonable. >> That's, it's convenient. Smart! You're making people's jobs optimized and easier as well as their stack and all the tools that they're using. It's fantastic. All right Garrett, we've got a new challenge here on theCUBE at re:Invent. >> Garrett: All right. >> It's probably different from the last time you were on theCUBE. We're looking for your 30 second hot take, your thought leadership moment. What's the biggest theme coming out of the show or for you as we look into 2023? >> Well, for in 30 seconds- >> Savannah: Yeah, casual, right? >> No pressure. >> Savannah: No big deal. >> No, so with Console Connect, you know, we are around the globe. I know that a lot of companies at AWS are, some are regional, some are global. And we have the ability to cover both. We can do either regional or global or a hybrid of those. We also have a hybrid approach on different types of services. And so the flexibility, scalability, reliability, and the lowered cost of egress with Console Connect is a win all around. You can't lose with it. >> I love it. You're meeting customers where they are. Garrett, it was fantastic to have you back on theCUBE. We look forward to your third cameo. >> Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. Thank you for having Console Connect on. >> Hey, absolutely. We look forward to continuing to watch and hopefully tell that story as well. And thank all of you for tuning in to day four of AWS's re:Invent coverage in Las Vegas, Nevada. I'm starting to forget my own name. I am with Paul Gilland. I'm Savannah Peterson. This is theCUBE. We are the leading source for high tech coverage. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, everyone, welcome back to Las Vegas, "theCube" is on our fourth day of covering AWS re:Invent, live from the Venetian Expo Center. This week has been amazing. We've created a ton of content, as you know, 'cause you've been watching. But, there's been north of 55,000 people here, hundreds of thousands online. We've had amazing conversations across the AWS ecosystem. Lisa Martin, Paul Gillan. Paul, what's your, kind of, take on day four of the conference? It's still highly packed. >> Oh, there's lots of people here. (laughs) >> Yep. Unusual for the final day of a conference. I think Werner Vogels, if I'm pronouncing it right kicked things off today when he talked about asymmetry and how the world is, you know, asymmetric. We build symmetric software, because it's convenient to do so, but asymmetric software actually scales and evolves much better. And I think that that was a conversation starter for a lot of what people are talking about here today, which is how the cloud changes the way we think about building software. >> Absolutely does. >> Our next guest, Holger Mueller, that's one of his key areas of focus. And Holger, welcome, thanks for joining us on the "theCube". >> Thanks for having me. >> What did you take away from the keynote this morning? >> Well, how do you feel on the final day of the marathon, right? We're like 23, 24 miles. Hit the ball yesterday, right? >> We are going strong Holger. And, of course, >> Yeah. >> you guys, we can either talk about business transformation with cloud or the World Cup. >> Or we can do both. >> The World Cup, hands down. World Cup. (Lisa laughs) Germany's out, I'm unbiased now. They just got eliminated. >> Spain is out now. >> What will the U.S. do against Netherlands tomorrow? >> They're going to win. What's your forecast? U.S. will win? >> They're going to win 2 to 1. >> What do you say, 2:1? >> I'm optimistic, but realistic. >> 3? >> I think Netherlands. >> Netherlands will win? >> 2 to nothing. >> Okay, I'll vote for the U.S.. >> Okay, okay >> 3:1 for the U.S.. >> Be optimistic. >> Root for the U.S.. >> Okay, I like that. >> Hope for the best wherever you work. >> Tomorrow you'll see how much soccer experts we are. >> If your prediction was right. (laughs) >> (laughs) Ja, ja. Or yours was right, right, so. Cool, no, but the event, I think the event is great to have 50,000 people. Biggest event of the year again, right? Not yet the 70,000 we had in 2019. But it's great to have the energy. I've never seen the show floor going all the way down like this, right? >> I haven't either. >> I've never seen that. I think it's a record. Often vendors get the space here and they have the keynote area, and the entertainment area, >> Yeah. >> and the food area, and then there's an exposition, right? This is packed. >> It's packed. >> Maybe it'll pay off. >> You don't see the big empty booths that you often see. >> Oh no. >> Exactly, exactly. You know, the white spaces and so on. >> No. >> Right. >> Which is a good thing. >> There's lots of energy, which is great. And today's, of course, the developer day, like you said before, right now Vogels' a rockstar in the developer community, right. Revered visionary on what has been built, right? And he's becoming a little professorial is my feeling, right. He had these moments before too, when it was justifying how AWS moved off the Oracle database about the importance of data warehouses and structures and why DynamoDB is better and so on. But, he had a large part of this too, and this coming right across the keynotes, right? Adam Selipsky talking about Antarctica, right? Scott against almonds and what went wrong. He didn't tell us, by the way, which often the tech winners forget. Scott banked on technology. He had motorized sleds, which failed after three miles. So, that's not the story to tell the technology. Let everything down. Everybody went back to ponies and horses and dogs. >> Maybe goes back to these asynchronous behavior. >> Yeah. >> The way of nature. >> And, yesterday, Swami talking about the bridges, right? The root bridges, right? >> Right. >> So, how could Werner pick up with his video at the beginning. >> Yeah. >> And then talk about space and other things? So I think it's important to educate about event-based architecture, right? And we see this massive transformation. Modern software has to be event based, right? Because, that's how things work and we didn't think like this before. I see this massive transformation in my other research area in other platforms about the HR space, where payrolls are being rebuilt completely. And payroll used to be one of the three peaks of ERP, right? You would size your ERP machine before the cloud to financial close, to run the payroll, and to do an MRP manufacturing run if you're manufacturing. God forbid you run those three at the same time. Your machine wouldn't be able to do that, right? So it was like start the engine, start the boosters, we are running payroll. And now the modern payroll designs like you see from ADP or from Ceridian, they're taking every payroll relevant event. You check in time wise, right? You go overtime, you take a day of vacation and right away they trigger and run the payroll, so it's up to date for you, up to date for you, which, in this economy, is super important, because we have more gig workers, we have more contractors, we have employees who are leaving suddenly, right? The great resignation, which is happening. So, from that perspective, it's the modern way of building software. So it's great to see Werner showing that. The dirty little secrets though is that is more efficient software for the cloud platform vendor too. Takes less resources, gets less committed things, so it's a much more scalable architecture. You can move the events, you can work asynchronously much better. And the biggest showcase, right? What's the biggest transactional showcase for an eventually consistent asynchronous transactional application? I know it's a mouthful, but we at Amazon, AWS, Amazon, right? You buy something on Amazon they tell you it's going to come tomorrow. >> Yep. >> They don't know it's going to come tomorrow by that time, because it's not transactionally consistent, right? We're just making every ERP vendor, who lives in transactional work, having nightmares of course, (Lisa laughs) but for them it's like, yes we have the delivery to promise, a promise to do that, right? But they come back to you and say, "Sorry, we couldn't make it, delivery didn't work and so on. It's going to be a new date. We are out of the product.", right? So these kind of event base asynchronous things are more and more what's going to scale around the world. It's going to be efficient for everybody, it's going to be better customer experience, better employee experience, ultimately better user experience, it's going to be better for the enterprise to build, but we have to learn to build it. So big announcement was to build our environment to build better eventful applications from today. >> Talk about... This is the first re:Invent... Well, actually, I'm sorry, it's the second re:Invent under Adam Selipsky. >> Right. Adam Selipsky, yep. >> But his first year. >> Right >> We're hearing a lot of momentum. What's your takeaway with what he delivered with the direction Amazon is going, their vision? >> Ja, I think compared to the Jassy times, right, we didn't see the hockey stick slide, right? With a number of innovations and releases. That was done in 2019 too, right? So I think it's a more pedestrian pace, which, ultimately, is good for everybody, because it means that when software vendors go slower, they do less width, but more depth. >> Yeah. >> And depth is what customers need. So Amazon's building more on the depth side, which is good news. I also think, and that's not official, right, but Adam Selipsky came from Tableau, right? >> Yeah. So he is a BI analytics guy. So it's no surprise we have three data lake offerings, right? Security data lake, we have a healthcare data lake and we have a supply chain data lake, right? Where all, again, the epigonos mentioned them I was like, "Oh, my god, Amazon's coming to supply chain.", but it's actually data lakes, which is an interesting part. But, I think it's not a surprise that someone who comes heavily out of the analytics BI world, it's off ringside, if I was pitching internally to him maybe I'd do something which he's is familiar with and I think that's what we see in the major announcement of his keynote on Tuesday. >> I mean, speaking of analytics, one of the big announcements early on was Amazon is trying to bridge the gap between Aurora. >> Yep. >> And Redshift. >> Right. >> And setting up for continuous pipelines, continuous integration. >> Right. >> Seems to be a trend that is common to all database players. I mean, Oracle is doing the same thing. SAP is doing the same thing. MariaDB. Do you see the distinction between transactional and analytical databases going away? >> It's coming together, right? Certainly coming together, from that perspective, but there's a fundamental different starting point, right? And with the big idea part, right? The universal database, which does everything for you in one system, whereas the suite of specialized databases, right? Oracle is in the classic Oracle database in the universal database camp. On the other side you have Amazon, which built a database. This is one of the first few Amazon re:Invents. It's my 10th where there was no new database announced. Right? >> No. >> So it was always add another one specially- >> I think they have enough. >> It's a great approach. They have enough, right? So it's a great approach to build something quick, which Amazon is all about. It's not so great when customers want to leverage things. And, ultimately, which I think with Selipsky, AWS is waking up to the enterprise saying, "I have all this different database and what is in them matters to me." >> Yeah. >> "So how can I get this better?" So no surprise between the two most popular database, Aurora and RDS. They're bring together the data with some out of the box parts. I think it's kind of, like, silly when Swami's saying, "Hey, no ETL.". (chuckles) Right? >> Yeah. >> There shouldn't be an ETL from the same vendor, right? There should be data pipes from that perspective anyway. So it looks like, on the overall value proposition database side, AWS is moving closer to the universal database on the Oracle side, right? Because, if you lift, of course, the universal database, under the hood, you see, well, there's different database there, different part there, you do something there, you have to configure stuff, which is also the case but it's one part of it, right, so. >> With that shift, talk about the value that's going to be in it for customers regardless of industry. >> Well, the value for customers is great, because when software vendors, or platform vendors, go in depth, you get more functionality, you get more maturity you get easier ways of setting up the whole things. You get ways of maintaining things. And you, ultimately, get lower TCO to build them, which is super important for enterprise. Because, here, this is the developer cloud, right? Developers love AWS. Developers are scarce, expensive. Might not be want to work for you, right? So developer velocity getting more done with same amount of developers, getting less done, less developers getting more done, is super crucial, super important. So this is all good news for enterprise banking on AWS and then providing them more efficiency, more automation, out of the box. >> Some of your customer conversations this week, talk to us about some of the feedback. What's the common denominator amongst customers right now? >> Customers are excited. First of all, like, first event, again in person, large, right? >> Yeah. >> People can travel, people meet each other, meet in person. They have a good handle around the complexity, which used to be a huge challenge in the past, because people say, "Do I do this?" I know so many CXOs saying, "Yeah, I want to build, say, something in IoT with AWS. The first reference built it like this, the next reference built it completely different. The third one built it completely different again. So now I'm doubting if my team has the skills to build things successfully, because will they be smart enough, like your teams, because there's no repetitiveness and that repetitiveness is going to be very important for AWS to come up with some higher packaging and version numbers.", right? But customers like that message. They like that things are working better together. They're not missing the big announcement, right? One of the traditional things of AWS would be, and they made it even proud, as a system, Jassy was saying, "If we look at the IT spend and we see something which is, like, high margin for us and not served well and we announced something there, right?" So Quick Start, Workspaces, where all liaisons where AWS went after traditional IT spend and had an offering. We haven't had this in 2019, we don't have them in 2020. Last year and didn't have it now. So something is changing on the AWS side. It's a little bit too early to figure out what, but they're not chewing off as many big things as they used in the past. >> Right. >> Yep. >> Did you get the sense that... Keith Townsend, from "The CTO Advisor", was on earlier. >> Yep. >> And he said he's been to many re:Invents, as you have, and he said that he got the sense that this is Amazon's chance to do a victory lap, as he called it. That this is a way for Amazon to reinforce the leadership cloud. >> Ja. >> And really, kind of, establish that nobody can come close to them, nobody can compete with them. >> You don't think that- >> I don't think that's at all... I mean, love Keith, he's a great guy, but I don't think that's the mindset at all, right? So, I mean, Jassy was always saying, "It's still the morning of the day in the cloud.", right? They're far away from being done. They're obsessed over being right. They do more work with the analysts. We think we got something right. And I like the passion, from that perspective. So I think Amazon's far from being complacent and the area, which is the biggest bit, right, the biggest. The only thing where Amazon truly has floundered, always floundered, is the AI space, right? So, 2018, Werner Vogels was doing more technical stuff that "Oh, this is all about linear regression.", right? And Amazon didn't start to put algorithms on silicon, right? And they have a three four trail and they didn't announce anything new here, behind Google who's been doing this for much, much longer than TPU platform, so. >> But they have now. >> They're keen aware. >> Yep. >> They now have three, or they own two of their own hardware platforms for AI. >> Right. >> They support the Intel platform. They seem to be catching up in that area. >> It's very hard to catch up on hardware, right? Because, there's release cycles, right? And just the volume that, just talking about the largest models that we have right now, to do with the language models, and Google is just doing a side note of saying, "Oh, we supported 50 less or 30 less, not little spoken languages, which I've never even heard of, because they're under banked and under supported and here's the language model, right? And I think it's all about little bit the organizational DNA of a company. I'm a strong believer in that. And, you have to remember AWS comes from the retail side, right? >> Yeah. >> Their roll out of data centers follows their retail strategy. Open secret, right? But, the same thing as the scale of the AI is very very different than if you take a look over at Google where it makes sense of the internet, right? The scale right away >> Right. >> is a solution, which is a good solution for some of the DNA of AWS. Also, Microsoft Azure is good. There has no chance to even get off the ship of that at Google, right? And these leaders with Google and it's not getting smaller, right? We didn't hear anything. I mean so much focused on data. Why do they focus so much on data? Because, data is the first step for AI. If AWS was doing a victory lap, data would've been done. They would own data, right? They would have a competitor to BigQuery Omni from the Google side to get data from the different clouds. There's crickets on that topic, right? So I think they know that they're catching up on the AI side, but it's really, really hard. It's not like in software where you can't acquire someone they could acquire in video. >> Not at Core Donovan. >> Might play a game, but that's not a good idea, right? So you can't, there's no shortcuts on the hardware side. As much as I'm a software guy and love software and don't like hardware, it's always a pain, right? There's no shortcuts there and there's nothing, which I think, has a new Artanium instance, of course, certainly, but they're not catching up. The distance is the same, yep. >> One of the things is funny, one of our guests, I think it was Tuesday, it was, it was right after Adam's keynote. >> Sure. >> Said that Adam Selipsky stood up on stage and talked about data for 52 minutes. >> Yeah. Right. >> It was timed, 52 minutes. >> Right. >> Huge emphasis on that. One of the things that Adam said to John Furrier when they were able to sit down >> Yeah >> a week or so ago at an event preview, was that CIOs and CEOs are not coming to Adam to talk about technology. They want to talk about transformation. They want to talk about business transformation. >> Sure, yes, yes. >> Talk to me in our last couple of minutes about what CEOs and CIOs are coming to you saying, "Holger, help us figure this out. We have to transform the business." >> Right. So we advise, I'm going quote our friends at Gartner, once the type A company. So we'll use technology aggressively, right? So take everything in the audience with a grain of salt, followers are the laggards, and so on. So for them, it's really the cusp of doing AI, right? Getting that data together. It has to be in the cloud. We live in the air of infinite computing. The cloud makes computing infinite, both from a storage, from a compute perspective, from an AI perspective, and then define new business models and create new best practices on top of that. Because, in the past, everything was fine out on premise, right? We talked about the (indistinct) size. Now in the cloud, it's just the business model to say, "Do I want to have a little more AI? Do I want a to run a little more? Will it give me the insight in the business?". So, that's the transformation that is happening, really. So, bringing your data together, this live conversation data, but not for bringing the data together. There's often the big win for the business for the first time to see the data. AWS is banking on that. The supply chain product, as an example. So many disparate systems, bring them them together. Big win for the business. But, the win for the business, ultimately, is when you change the paradigm from the user showing up to do something, to software doing stuff for us, right? >> Right. >> We have too much in this operator paradigm. If the user doesn't show up, doesn't find the click, doesn't find where to go, nothing happens. It can't be done in the 21st century, right? Software has to look over your shoulder. >> Good point. >> Understand one for you, autonomous self-driving systems. That's what CXOs, who're future looking, will be talked to come to AWS and all the other cloud vendors. >> Got it, last question for you. We're making a sizzle reel on Instagram. >> Yeah. >> If you had, like, a phrase, like, or a 30 second pitch that would describe re:Invent 2022 in the direction the company's going. What would that elevator pitch say? >> 30 second pitch? >> Yeah. >> All right, just timing. AWS is doing well. It's providing more depth, less breadth. Making things work together. It's catching up in some areas, has some interesting offerings, like the healthcare offering, the security data lake offering, which might change some things in the industry. It's staying the course and it's going strong. >> Ah, beautifully said, Holger. Thank you so much for joining Paul and me. >> Might have been too short. I don't know. (laughs) >> About 10 seconds left over. >> It was perfect, absolutely perfect. >> Thanks for having me. >> Perfect sizzle reel. >> Appreciate it. >> We appreciate your insights, what you're seeing this week, and the direction the company is going. We can't wait to see what happens in the next year. And, yeah. >> Thanks for having me. >> And of course, we've been on so many times. We know we're going to have you back. (laughs) >> Looking forward to it, thank you. >> All right, for Holger Mueller and Paul Gillan, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching "theCube", the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back everyone, live coverage here. Re:invent 2022. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Two sets here. We got amazing content flowing. A third set upstairs in the executive briefing area. It's kind of a final review, day three. We got a special guest for do a re:Invent review. Muddu Sudhakar CEO founder of Aisera. Former multi-exit entrepreneur. Kind of a CUBE analyst who's always watching the floor, comes in, reports on our behalf. Thank you, you're seasoned veteran. Good to see you. Thanks for coming. >> Thank you John >> We've only got five minutes. Let's get into it. What's your report? What are you seeing here at re:Invent? What's the most important story? What's happening? What should people pay attention to? >> No, a lot of things. First all, thank you for having me John. But, most important thing what Amazon has announced is AIML. How they're doubling down on AIML. Amazon Connect for Wise. Watch out all the contact center vendors. Third, is in the area of workflow, low-code, no-code, workflow automation. I see these three are three big pillars. And, the fourth is ETL and ELTs. They're offering ETL as included as a part of S3 Redshift. I see those four areas are the big buckets. >> Well, it's not no ETL to S3. It's ETL into S3 or migration. >> That's right. >> Then the other one was Zero ETL Promise. >> Muddu: That's right. >> Which there's a skeptical group out there that think that's not possible. I do. I think ultimately that'll happen, but what's your take? >> I think it's going to happen. So, it's going to happen both within that data store as well as outside the data store, data coming in. I think that area, Amazon is going to slowly encroach into the whole thing will be part offered as a part of Redshift and S3. >> Got it. What else are you seeing? Security. >> Amazon Connect Amazon Connect is a big thing. >> John: Why is that so important? It seems like they already have that. >> They have it, but what they're doing now is to automate AI bots. They want to use AI bot to automate both agent assist, AI assist, and also WiseBot automation. So, all the contact center Wise to text they're doubling down. I think it's a good competition to Microsoft with the Nuance acquisition and what Zoom is doing today. So, I think within Microsoft, Zoom, and Amazon, it's a nice competition there. >> Okay, so we had Adam's keynote, a lot of security and data, that was big. Today, we had Swami, all ML, 13 announcements. Adam did telegraph to me that he was going to to share the love. Jassy would've probably taken most of those announcements, we know that. Adam shared the love. So, Adam, props to you for sharing the love with Swami and some of those announcements. We had 13. So, good for him. >> Yes. >> And then, we had Aruba with the partners. What's your take on the partner network? A revamp? >> No, I think Aruba did a very good job in terms of partners. Look at these, one of the best stores that Amazon does. Even the companies like me, I'm a startup company. They know how to include the partners, drive more revenue with partners, sell through it, more expansion. So, Amazon is still one of the best for startup to mid-market companies to go into enterprise. So, I love their partnership angle. >> One of the things I like that she said that resonated with me 'cause, I've been working with those teams, is it's unified, clear roles, but together. But, scaling the support for partners and making money for partners. >> That's right. >> That is a huge deal. Big road ahead. She's focused on it. She says, no problem. We want to scale up the business model of the channel. >> Muddu: That's right. >> The resources, so that the ecosystem can make money and serve customers or serve customers and make money. >> Muddu: That's right. And, I think one thing that they're always good is Marketplace. Now, they're doing is outside of market with ISV, co-sell, selling through. I think Amazon really understood that adding the value so that we make money as a partners and they make money, incrementally. So, I think Aruba is doing a very good job. I really like it. >> Okay, final question. What's going on with Werner? What do you expect to hear tomorrow from a developer front? Not a lot of developer productivity conversations at this re:Invent. Not a lot of people talking about software supply chain although Snyk was on theCUBE earlier. Developer productivity. Werner's going to speak to that tomorrow we think. Or, I don't know. What do you think? >> I think he's going talk something called generative AI. Rumored the people are talking about the code will be returned by the algorithms now. I think if I'm Werner, I'm going to talk about where the technology is going, where the humans will not be writing code. So, I think AI is going to double down with Amazon more on the generative AI. He's going to try a lot about that. >> Generative AI is hot. We could have generative CUBE, no hosts. >> Muddu: Yes, that would be good. >> No code, no host >> Muddu: Have an answer, John Software. (both laugh) >> We're going to automate everything. Muddu, great to hear from you. Thanks for reporting. Anything else on the ecosystem? Any observations on the ecosystem and their opportunity? >> So, coming from my side, if I'd to provide an answer, today we have like close to thousand leads that are good. Most of them are financial, healthcare. Healthcare is still one of the largest ones I saw in this conference. Financials, and then, I'm started seeing a lot more on the manufacturing. So, I think supply chain, they were not so. I think Amazon is doing fantastic job with financial, healthcare, and supply chain. >> Where is their blind spot if you had to point that one? >> I think media and entertainment. Media and entertainment is not that big on Amazon. So, I think we should see a lot more of those. >> Yeah, I think they need to look at that. Any other observations? Hallway conversations that are notable that you would like to share with folks watching? >> I think what needs to happen is with VMware, and Citrix desktop, and Endpoint Management. That's their blind spot. So far, nobody's really talking about the Endpoints. Your workstation, laptop, desktop. Remember, that was big with VMware. Nope, that's not a thought of conversation in email right now. So, I think that area is left behind by Amazon. Somebody needs to go after that white space. >> John: And, the audience here is over 50,000. Big numbers. >> Huge. One of the best shows, right? I mean after Covid. It's by far the best show I've seen in this year. >> All right, if you'd do a sizzle reel, what would it be? >> Sizzle reel. I think it's going to be a lot more on, as I said, generative to AI is the key word to watch. And, more than that, low-code no-code workflow automation. How do you automate the workflows? Which is where ServiceNow is fairly strong. I think you'll see Amazon and ServiceNow playing in the workflow automation. >> Muddu, thank you so much for coming on theCube sharing. That's a wrap up for day three here in theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, Dave Vellante for Lisa Martin, Savannah Peterson, all working on Paul Gillan and John Walls and the whole team. Thanks for all your support. Wrapping it up to the end of the day. Pulling the plug. We'll see you tomorrow. (upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hello cloud computing friends and welcome back to theCUBE, where we are live from Las Vegas, Nevada, here at AWS re:Invent all week. My name is Savannah Peterson, very excited to be joined by Paul Gillan today. How are you doing? >> I'm doing great, Savannah. It's my first re:Invent. >> I was just going to ask you >> So it's quite an experience. >> If you've ever been to re:Invent. >> It's dazzling much like the sequins on your top. It's dazzling. >> Yes. >> It's a jam packed affair. I came to the COMDEX Conference for many years in Las Vegas, which was huge event and this really rivals it in terms of these crowd sizes. But I think there's more intensity here. There's more excitement. People are just jazzed about being here to the extent that I never saw at other computer conferences. >> I thought I would agree with you. It's my first re:Invent as well. I'm glad we could share this experience together. And the vibe, the pulse, I think being back in person is really contagious as well. Ooh, maybe the wrong word to use, but in a great way. The energy is definitely radiating between people here. I'll watch my words a little bit better. >> And in person we have with us Samuel Nicholls, the director of public cloud at Global Product Marketing at Veeam Software. Sam, is it Sam or Samuel? >> Depends if I'm in trouble, Paul. >> Savannah: But it depends on who's saying it out loud. >> Yeah, yeah. It's typically, Samuel is usually reserved for my mother, so- >> Yeah. >> (laughs) Well, Sam, thanks for joining us. >> We'll stick with Sam on the show. >> Yeah. >> So Veeam been a red hot company for several years. Really made its, uh, its reputation in the VMware world. Now you've got this whole-sail shift to the cloud, not that VMware is not important still, but how is that affecting, you're shifting with it, how is that affecting your role as a product manager and the business overall? >> Yeah, it's a fantastic question. Obviously Veeam was pioneered in terms of being the purpose-built backup and recovery company for VMware. And as these workloads are being transitioned from the data center into the cloud or just net new workloads being created in the cloud, there is that equal need for backup and recovery there. So it's incredibly important that we were able to provide a purpose-built backup and recovery solution for workloads that live in AWS as well. >> Paul: And how different is it backing up an AWS workload compared to a VMware workload? >> I think it depends on what kind of service a user is, is, is utilizing, right? There's infrastructure as a service, platform as a service, software as a service. And given the differences in what is exposed to that customer that can make backup and recovery quite challenging. So I would say that the primary thing that we want to look at is utilizing native snapshots is our first line of defense when it comes to backup and recovery, irrespective of what workload that right might be whether it's a virtual machine, Amazon EC2, some sort of database on Amazon RDS, a file share, so on. >> Savannah: I bet you're seeing a lot across verticals and across the industry given the support that you're giving customers. What are you seeing in the market and in customer environments? What are some of those trends? >> So I think the major trends that we highlight in our data protection trend support, which is a new update is coming very shortly in the new year, is- >> Savannah: We have to check that out. >> Yeah, absolutely. The physical server is on a decline within the data center. Virtualized workloads, namely VMware is relatively static, kind of flat. The real hockey stick is with the cloud workloads. And as I mentioned before, that is partially because workloads are being transitioned from physical to virtual machines to being cloud hosted but also we're creating more applications and the cloud has become lead de facto standard for new workloads. So you hear about cloud first initiatives, digital transformation, the cloud is central to that. >> You mentioned snapshotting, which is a relatively new phenomenon, although it's taken a hold rapidly, how does snapshotting work in the cloud versus in on your on-prem environment? >> Samuel: It's not wildly different at all. I think the snapshots is again, a great first line of defense for helping users achieve very low recovery point objectives. So the frequency that they can protect their data as well as very low recovery time objectives, how quickly that I can recover the data. Because that's why we're backing up, right? We need the ability to recover. However, snapshots certainly have their limitations as well. They are not independent of the workload that is being protected. So if there were to be some sort of cybersecurity event like ransomware that is prolific throughout pretty much every business, every vertical. When that snapshot is not independent, if the production system becomes compromised that snapshot's likely to be compromised as well. And then going back to the recovery piece, not going to have something to recover from. >> And it's not a one and done with ransomware. >> No. >> It's, yeah. So how, so what is the role that backup plays? I mean a lot of people, I feel like security is such a hot topic here in the show and just in general, attacks are coming in unique form factors for everyone. I mean, I feel like backup is, no pun intended, the backbone of a system here. How does that affect what you're creating, I mean? >> Yeah, absolutely. I think, like you say the backup is core to any comprehensive security strategy, right? I think when we talk about security, everyone tends to focus on the preventative, the proactive piece, stopping the bad guys from getting in. However, there is that remediative aspect as well because like you say, ransomware is relentless, right? You, you as a good guy have to pretty much fend off each and every single attack that comes your way. And that can be an infinite number of attacks. We're all human beings, we're fallible, right? And sometimes we can't defend against everything. So having a secure backup strategy is part of that remediative recovery component for a cybersecurity strategy is critical. And that includes things like encryption, immutability, logical separation of data and so forth. >> Paul: We know that ransomware is a scourge on-premises, typically begins with the end users, end user workstation. How does ransomware work in the cloud? And do the cloud providers have adequate protections against ransomware? Or can they? >> Samuel: Yeah, it's a, it's a fantastic question as well. I think when we look at the cloud, one of the common misconceptions is as we transition workloads to the cloud, we are transitioning responsibility to that cloud provider. And again, it's a misconception, right? It is a shared responsibility between the cloud provider in this case, AWS and the user. So as we transition these workloads across varying different services, infrastructure, platform, software as a service, we're always, always transitioning varying degrees of responsibility. But we always own our data and it is our responsibility to protect and secure that data, for the actual infrastructure components, the hardware that is on the onus of the cloud provider, so I'd say that's the major difference. >> Is ransomware as big a threat in the cloud as it is on-prem? >> Absolutely. There's no difference between a ransomware attack on-premises or in the cloud. Irrespective of where you are choosing to run your workloads, you need to have that comprehensive cybersecurity strategy in order to defend against that and ultimately recover as well if there's a successful attempt. >> Yeah, it's, ooh, okay. Let's get us out at the dark shadows real quick (laughs) and bring us back to a little bit of the business use case here. A lot of people using AWS. What do you think are some of the considerations, they should have when they're thinking about this, thinking about growing their (indistinct)? >> Well, if we're going to stick down the dark shadows, the cybersecurity piece. >> We can be the darkness. >> You and me kind of dark shadows business. >> Yeah, yeah. >> We can go rainbows and unicorns, nice and happy if you like. I think there's a number of considerations they need to keep up. Security is, is, is number one. The next piece is around the recovery as well. I think folks, when they, when we talk about backup and recovery, the focus is always on the backup piece of it. But again, we need to focus on why we're doing the backup. It's the recovery, it's the recovery component. So making sure that we have a clean verifiable backup that we're able to restore data from. Can we do that in a, in efficient and timely manner? And I think the other major consideration is looking at the entirety of our environments as well. Very few companies are a hundred percent sole sourced on a single cloud provider. It is typically hybrid cloud. It's around 80% of organizations are hybrid, right? So they have their on-premises data and they also have workloads running in one or multiple clouds. And when it comes to backup and recovery of all of these different infrastructures and environments, the way that we approach it is very different. And that often leads to multiple different point products from multiple different vendors. The average company utilizes three different backup products, sometimes as many as seven and that can introduce a management nightmare that's very complex, very resource intensive, expensive. So looking at the entirety of the environment and looking to utilize a backup provider that can cover the entirety of that environment while centralizing everything under a single management console helps folks be a lot more efficient, a lot more cost effective and ultimately better when it comes to data protection. >> Amazon and all cloud providers really are increasingly making regions transparent. Just at this conference, Amazon introduced failover controls from multiple multi-region access points. So you can, you can failover from one access from one region to another. What kind of challenges does that present to you as a backup provider? >> I don't think it represents any challenges. When we look at the native durability of the cloud, we look at availability zones, we look at multi-region failover. That is, that durability is ultimately founded on, on replication. And I wouldn't say that replication and backup, you would use one or the other. I would say that they are complimentary. So for replication, that is going to help with the failover scenario, that durability component. But then backup again is that independent copy. Because if we look at replication, if let's say the source data were to be compromised by ransomware or there was accidental deletion or corruption, that's simply going to be copied over to the target destination as well. Having that backup as an independent copy, again compliments that strategy as well. >> Paul: You need it in either, in any scenario. >> Samuel: In any scenario. >> I think the average person would probably say that backup is not the most exciting technology aspect of this industry. But, but you guys certainly made, build a great business on it. What excites you about what's coming in backup? What are the new technologies, new advancements that perhaps we haven't seen and productized yet that you think are going to change the game? >> I think actually what we offer right now is the most exciting piece which is just choice flexibility. So Veeam again is synonymous with VMware backup but we cover a multitude of environments including AWS, containerized workloads, Kubernetes physical systems and the mobility pieces is critical because as organizations look to act on their digital transformation, cloud first initiatives, they need to be able to mobilize their workloads across different infrastructures, maybe from on-premises into the cloud, one cloud to another, maybe it's cloud back to on-premises, 'cause we do also see that. That flexibility of choice is what excites me about Veeam because it's ultimately giving the users best in class data protection tool sets without any prescriptive approach from us in terms of where you should be running your workloads. That is the choice that you use. >> Yeah, Veeam is definitely more than VMware. We actually had a chance to chat with you all like KubeCon and CloudNativeCon in Detroit. So we, we've seen the multitude of things that you touch. I want to bring it back to something and something kind of fun because you talked a lot about the community and being able to serve them. It's very clear, actually I shouldn't say this, I shouldn't say it's very clear, but to me it appears clear that community is a big priority for Veeam. I just want to call this out 'cause this was one of the cooler pieces of swag. You all gave out a hundred massage guns. Okay, very hot topic. Hot Christmas gift for 2022. I feel like Vanna White right now. And, but I thought that I was actually really compelled by this because we do a swag segment on theCUBE but it's not just about the objects or getting stuff. It's really about who's looking out for their community and how are they saying thanks. I mean, swag is a brand activation but it's also a thank you and I loved that you were giving out massage guns to the AWS Heroes and Community Builders. >> Yep. >> What role does community play in the culture and the product development at Veeam? >> So community has always been at the heart of Veeam. If you have a look at pretty much every single development across all of our versions, across all of our products it's always did by the community, right? We have a wonderful Veeam forum where we got 400,000 plus users actively providing feedback on the product what they would like to see. And that is ultimately what steers the direction of the product. Of course market trends and technology chain. >> A couple other factors, I'm sure. >> A couple of other factors, but community is huge for us. And the same goes for AWS. So, you know, talking with the AWS Heroes, the Community Builders helps Veeam reach further into that, into that community and the AWS user base and empower those folks with data protection tools and massage guns, when your feet are tired from, you know, being standing on them all day in Vegas. >> (laughs) Yeah, well, I mean, everybody, everybody's working hard and it's nice to say, it's nice to say, thank you. So I love, I love to hear that and it's, it's clear from the breadth of products that you're creating, the ways that you're supporting your customers that you already, they care a lot about community. We have a new challenge on theCUBE this year at AWS re:Invent. Think of it as an Instagram reel of your thought leadership, your hot take on the show, key themes as we look into 2023. What do you think is the most important story or trend or thing going on here at the show? >> I think it's just the continuation of cybersecurity and the importance of backup as a comprehensive cybersecurity strategy. You know, some folks might say that secure backup is your last line of defense. Again, ransomware is relentless. These folks are going to keep coming and even if they're successful, it's not a one and done thing. It's going to happen again and again and again. So, you know, we have a look around the show floor, the presentations there is a huge cybersecurity focus and really just what folks should be doing as their best practice to secure their AWS environments. >> That's awesome. Well, Paul, any final, any final thoughts or questions? >> I just quickly, you've mentioned data security, you mentioned data protection and backup sort of interchangeably but they're not really the same thing, are they? I mean, what businesses do you see Veeam as being here? >> I would say that we are a data protection company because of, yes, there is backup, but there's also the replication component. There's the continuous data protection component where we've got, you know, near-zero RTOs and then we again look at the cybersecurity components of that. What can we do to really protect that data? So I would say that the two are different. Backup is a subset of data protection. >> Sam, thank you so much for being here with us on theCUBE. It's been a super insightful conversation. Hopefully we'll get you back soon and more of the teams, there seem to be celebrities here with us on theCUBE. Paul Gillan, thank you so much for being here with me. >> Pleasure Savannah. >> And I'm glad we get to celebrate our first re:Invent and most importantly, thank you to the audience for tuning in. Without you, we don't get to hang out here in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, where we're live from the show floor at AWS re:Invent. My name is Savannah Peterson with Paul Gillan. We're theCUBE and we are the leading source for high-tech coverage. (bright music)

>>We're back at Supercomputing 22 in Dallas, winding down day four of this conference. I'm Paul Gillan, my co-host Dave Nicholson. We are talking, we've been talking super computing all week and you hear a lot about what's going on in the United States, what's going on in China, Japan. What we haven't talked a lot about is what's going on in Europe and did you know that two of the top five supercomputers in the world are actually from European countries? Well, our guest has a lot to do with that. Florian, bearish, I hope I pronounce that correctly. My German is, German is not. My strength is the operations director for price, ais, S B L. And let's start with that. What is price? >>So, hello and thank you for the invitation. I'm Flon and Price is a partnership for Advanced Computing in Europe. It's a non-profit association with the seat in Brussels in Belgium. And we have 24 members. These are representatives from different European countries dealing with high performance computing in at their place. And we, so far, we provided the resources for our European research communities. But this changed in the last year, this oral HPC joint undertaking who put a lot of funding in high performance computing and co-funded five PET scale and three preis scale systems. And two of the preis scale systems. You mentioned already, this is Lumi and Finland and Leonardo in Bologna in Italy were in the place for and three and four at the top 500 at least. >>So why is it important that Europe be in the top list of supercomputer makers? >>I think Europe needs to keep pace with the rest of the world. And simulation science is a key technology for the society. And we saw this very recently with a pandemic, with a covid. We were able to help the research communities to find very quickly vaccines and to understand how the virus spread around the world. And all this knowledge is important to serve the society. Or another example is climate change. Yeah. With these new systems, we will be able to predict more precise the changes in the future. So the more compute power you have, the better the smaller the grid and there is resolution you can choose and the lower the error will be for the future. So these are, I think with these systems, the big or challenges we face can be addressed. This is the climate change, energy, food supply, security. >>Who are your members? Do they come from businesses? Do they come from research, from government? All of the >>Above. Yeah. Our, our members are public organization, universities, research centers, compute sites as a data centers, but But public institutions. Yeah. And we provide this services for free via peer review process with excellence as the most important criteria to the research community for free. >>So 40 years ago when, when the idea of an eu, and maybe I'm getting the dates a little bit wrong, when it was just an idea and the idea of a common currency. Yes. Reducing friction between, between borders to create a trading zone. Yes. There was a lot of focus there. Fast forward to today, would you say that these efforts in supercomputing, would they be possible if there were not an EU super structure? >>No, I would say this would not be possible in this extent. I think when though, but though European initiatives are, are needed and the European Commission is supporting these initiatives very well. And before praise, for instance 2008, there were research centers and data centers operating high performance computing systems, but they were not talking to each other. So it was isolated praise created community of operation sites and it facilitated the exchange between them and also enabled to align investments and to, to get the most out of the available funding. And also at this time, and still today for one single country in Europe, it's very hard to provide all the different architectures needed for all the different kind of research communities and applications. If you want to, to offer always the latest technologies, though this is really hardly possible. So with this joint action and opening the resources for other research groups from other countries, you, we, we were able to, yeah, get access to the latest technology for different communities at any given time though. And >>So, so the fact that the two systems that you mentioned are physically located in Finland and in Italy, if you were to walk into one of those facilities and meet the people that are there, they're not just fins in Finland and Italians in Italy. Yeah. This is, this is very much a European effort. So this, this is true. So, so in this, in that sense, the geography is sort of abstracted. Yeah. And the issues of sovereignty that make might take place in in the private sector don't exist or are there, are there issues with, can any, what are the requirements for a researcher to have access to a system in Finland versus a system in Italy? If you've got a EU passport, Hmm. Are you good to go? >>I think you are good to go though. But EU passport, it's now it becomes complicated and political. It's, it's very much, if we talk about the recent systems, well first, let me start a praise. Praise was inclusive and there was no any constraints as even we had users from US, Australia, we wanted just to support excellence in science. And we did not look at the nationality of the organization, of the PI and and so on. There were quotas, but these quotas were very generously interpreted. So, and if so, now with our HPC joint undertaking, it's a question from what European funds, these systems were procured and if a country or being country are associated to this funding, the researchers also have access to these systems. And this addresses basically UK and and Switzerland, which are not in the European Union, but they were as created to the Horizon 2020 research framework. And though they could can access the systems now available, Lumi and Leono and the Petascale system as well. How this will develop in the future, I don't know. It depends to which research framework they will be associated or not. >>What are the outputs of your work at price? Are they reference designs? Is it actual semiconductor hardware? Is it the research? What do you produce? >>So the, the application we run or the simulation we run cover all different scientific domains. So it's, it's science, it's, but also we have industrial let projects with more application oriented targets. Aerodynamics for instance, for cars or planes or something like this. But also fundamental science like the physical elementary physics particles for instance or climate change, biology, drug design, protein costa, all these >>Things. Can businesses be involved in what you do? Can they purchase your, your research? Do they contribute to their, I'm sure, I'm sure there are many technology firms in Europe that would like to be involved. >>So this involving industry though our calls are open and is, if they want to do open r and d, they are invited to submit also proposals. They will be evaluated and if this is qualifying, they will get the access and they can do their jobs and simulations. It's a little bit more tricky if it's in production, if they use these resources for their business and do not publish the results. They are some, well, probably more sites who, who are able to deal with these requests. Some are more dominant than others, but this is on a smaller scale, definitely. Yeah. >>What does the future hold? Are you planning to, are there other countries who will be joining the effort, other institutions? Do you plan to expand your, your scope >>Well, or I think or HPC joint undertaking with 36 member states is quite, covers already even more than Europe. And yeah, clearly if, if there are other states interest interested to join that there is no limitation. Although the focus lies on European area and on union. >>When, when you interact with colleagues from North America, do you, do you feel that there is a sort of European flavor to supercomputing that is different or are we so globally entwined? No. >>So research is not national, it's not European, it's international. This is also clearly very clear and I can, so we have a longstanding collaboration with our US colleagues and also with Chap and South Africa and Canada. And when Covid hit the world, we were able within two weeks to establish regular seminars inviting US and European colleagues to talk to to other, to each other and exchange the results and find new collaboration and to boost the research activities. So, and I have other examples as well. So when we, we already did the joint calls US exceed and in Europe praise and it was a very interesting experience. So we received applications from different communities and we decided that we will review this on our side, on European, with European experts and US did it in US with their experts. And you can guess what the result was at the meeting when we compared our results, it was matching one by one. It was exactly the same. Recite >>That it, it's, it's refreshing to hear a story of global collaboration. Yeah. Where people are getting along and making meaningful progress. >>I have to mention you, I have to to point out, you did not mention China as a country you were collaborating with. Is that by, is that intentional? >>Well, with China, definitely we have less links and collaborations also. It's also existing. There, there was initiative to look at the development of the technologies and the group meet on a regular basis. And there, there also Chinese colleagues involved. It's on a lower level, >>Yes, but is is the con conversations are occurring. We're out of time. Florian be operations director of price, European Super Computing collaborative. Thank you so much for being with us. I'm always impressed when people come on the cube and submit to an interview in a language that is not their first language. Yeah, >>Absolutely. >>Brave to do that. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. We'll be right back after this break from Supercomputing 22 in Dallas.

(upbeat music) >> We're back at SC22 SuperComputing Conference in Dallas. My name's Paul Gillan, my co-host, John Furrier, SiliconANGLE founder. And huge exhibit floor here. So much activity, so much going on in HPC, and much of it around the chips from AMD, which has been on a roll lately. And in partnership with Dell, our guests are Brian Payne, Dell Technologies, VP of Product Management for ISG mid-range technical solutions, and Raghu Nambiar, corporate vice president of data system, data center ecosystem, and application engineering, that's quite a mouthful, at AMD, And gentlemen, welcome. Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> This has been an evolving relationship between you two companies, obviously a growing one, and something Dell was part of the big general rollout, AMD's new chip set last week. Talk about how that relationship has evolved over the last five years. >> Yeah, sure. Well, so it goes back to the advent of the EPIC architecture. So we were there from the beginning, partnering well before the launch five years ago, thinking about, "Hey how can we come up with a way to solve customer problems? address workloads in unique ways?" And that was kind of the origin of the relationship. We came out with some really disruptive and capable platforms. And then it continues, it's continued till then, all the way to the launch of last week, where we've introduced four of the most capable platforms we've ever had in the PowerEdge portfolio. >> Yeah, I'm really excited about the partnership with the Dell. As Brian said, we have been partnering very closely for last five years since we introduced the first generation of EPIC. So we collaborate on, you know, system design, validation, performance benchmarks, and more importantly on software optimizations and solutions to offer out of the box experience to our customers. Whether it is HPC or databases, big data analytics or AI. >> You know, you guys have been on theCUBE, you guys are veterans 2012, 2014 back in the day. So much has changed over the years. Raghu, you were on the founding chair of the TPC for AI. We've talked about the different iterations of power service. So much has changed. Why the focus on these workloads now? What's the inflection point that we're seeing here at SuperComputing? It feels like we've been in this, you know run the ball, get, gain a yard, move the chains, you know, but we feel, I feel like there's a moment where the there's going to be an unleashing of innovation around new use cases. Where's the workloads? Why the performance? What are some of those use cases right now that are front and center? >> Yeah, I mean if you look at today, the enterprise ecosystem has become extremely complex, okay? People are running traditional workloads like Relational Database Management Systems, also new generation of workloads with the AI and HPC and actually like AI actually HPC augmented with some of the AI technologies. So what customers are looking for is, as I said, out of the box experience, or time to value is extremely critical. Unlike in the past, you know, people, the customers don't have the time and resources to run months long of POCs, okay? So that's one idea that we are focusing, you know, working closely with Dell to give out of the box experience. Again, you know, the enterprise applicate ecosystem is, you know, really becoming complex and the, you know, as you mentioned, some of the industry standard benchmark is designed to give the fair comparison of performance, and price performance for the, our end customers. And you know, Brian and my team has been working closely to demonstrate our joint capabilities in the AI space with, in a set of TPCx-AI benchmark cards last week it was the major highlight of our launch last week. >> Brian, you got showing the demo in the booth at Dell here. Not demo, the product, it's available. What are you seeing for your use cases that customers are kind of rallying around now, and what are they doubling down on. >> Yeah, you know, I, so Raghu I think teed it up well. The really data is the currency of business and all organizations today. And that's what's pushing people to figure out, hey, both traditional workloads as well as new workloads. So we've got in the traditional workload space, you still have ERP systems like SAP, et cetera, and we've announced world records there, a hundred plus percent improvements in our single socket system, 70% and dual. We actually posted a 40% advantage over the best Genoa result just this week. So, I mean, we're excited about that in the traditional space. But what's exciting, like why are we here? Why, why are people thinking about HPC and AI? It's about how do we make use of that data, that data being the currency and how do we push in that space? So Raghu mentioned the TPC AI benchmark. We launched, or we announced in collaboration you talk about how do we work together, nine world records in that space. In one case it's a 3x improvement over prior generations. So the workloads that people care about is like how can I process this data more effectively? How can I store it and secure it more effectively? And ultimately, how do I make decisions about where we're going, whether it's a scientific breakthrough, or a commercial application. That's what's really driving the use cases and the demand from our customers today. >> I think one of the interesting trends we've seen over the last couple of years is a resurgence in interest in task specific hardware around AI. In fact venture capital companies invested a $1.8 billion last year in AI hardware startups. I wonder, and these companies are not doing CPUs necessarily, or GPUs, they're doing accelerators, FPGAs, ASICs. But you have to be looking at that activity and what these companies are doing. What are you taking away from that? How does that affect your own product development plans? Both on the chip side and on the system side? >> I think the future of computing is going to be heterogeneous. Okay. I mean a CPU solving certain type of problems like general purpose computing databases big data analytics, GPU solving, you know, problems in AI and visualization and DPUs and FPGA's accelerators solving you know, offloading, you know, some of the tasks from the CPU and providing realtime performance. And of course, you know, the, the software optimizes are going to be critical to stitch everything together, whether it is HPC or AI or other workloads. You know, again, as I said, heterogeneous computing is going to be the future. >> And, and for us as a platform provider, the heterogeneous, you know, solutions mean we have to design systems that are capable of supporting that. So if as you think about the compute power whether it's a GPU or a CPU, continuing to push the envelope in terms of, you know, to do the computations, power consumption, things like that. How do we design a system that can be, you know, incredibly efficient, and also be able to support the scaling, you know, to solve those complex problems. So that gets into challenges around, you know, both liquid cooling, but also making the most out of air cooling. And so we're seeing not only are we we driving up you know, the capability of these systems, we're actually improving the energy efficiency. And those, the most recent systems that we launched around the CPU, which is still kind of at the heart of everything today, you know, are seeing 50% improvement, you know, gen to gen in terms of performance per watt capabilities. So it's, it's about like how do we package these systems in effective ways and make sure that our customers can get, you know, the advertised benefits, so to speak, of the new chip technologies. >> Yeah. To add to that, you know, performance, scalability total cost of ownership, these are the key considerations, but now energy efficiency has become more important than ever, you know, our commitment to sustainability. This is one of the thing that we have demonstrated last week was with our new generation of EPIC Genoa based systems, we can do a one five to one consolidation, significantly reducing the energy requirement. >> Power's huge costs are going up. It's a global issue. >> Raghu: Yeah, it is. >> How do you squeeze more performance too out of it at the same time, I mean, smaller, faster, cheaper. Paul, you wrote a story about, you know, this weekend about hardware and AI making hardware so much more important. You got more power requirements, you got the sustainability, but you need more horsepower, more compute. What's different in the architecture if you guys could share like today versus years ago, what's different in as these generations step function value increases? >> So one of the major drivers from the processor perspective is if you look at the latest generation of processors, the five nanometer technology, bringing efficiency and density. So we are able to pack 96 processor cores, you know, in a two socket system, we are talking about 196 processor cores. And of course, you know, other enhancements like IPC uplift, bringing DDR5 to the market PC (indistinct) for the market, offering overall, you know, performance uplift of more than 2.5x for certain workloads. And of course, you know, significantly reducing the power footprint. >> Also, I was just going to cut, I mean, architecturally speaking, you know, then how do we take the 96 cores and surround it, deliver a balanced ecosystem to make sure that we can get the, the IO out of the system, and make sure we've got the right data storage. So I mean, you'll see 60% improvements and total storage in the system. I think in 2012 we're talking about 10 gig ethernet. Well, you know, now we're on to 100 and 400 on the forefront. So it's like how do we keep up with this increased power, by having, or computing capabilities both offload and core computing and make sure we've got a system that can deliver the desired (indistinct). >> So the little things like the bus, the PCI cards, the NICs, the connectors have to be rethought through. Is that what you're getting at? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Paul: And the GPUs, which are huge power consumers. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, cooling, we introduce, and we call it smart cooling is a part of our latest generation of servers. I mean, the thermal design inside of a server is a is a complex, you know, complex system, right? And doing that efficiently because of course fans consume power. So I mean, yeah, those are the kind of considerations that we have to put through to make sure that you're not either throttling performance because you don't have you know, keeping the chips at the right temperature. And, and you know, ultimately when you do that, you're hurting the productivity of the investment. So I mean, it's, it's our responsibility to put our thoughts and deliver those systems that are (indistinct) >> You mention data too, if you bring in the data, one of the big discussions going into the big Amazon show coming up, re:Invent is egress costs. Right, So now you've got compute and how you design data latency you know, processing. It's not just contained in a machine. You got to think about outside that machine talking to other machines. Is there an intelligent (chuckles) network developing? I mean, what's the future look like? >> Well, I mean, this is a, is an area that, that's, you know, it's fun and, you know, Dell's in a unique position to work on this problem, right? We have 70% of the mission housed, 70% of the mission critical data that exists in the world. How do we bring that closer to compute? How do we deliver system level solutions? So server compute, so recently we announced innovations around NVMe over Fabrics. So now you've got the NVMe technology and the SAN. How do we connect that more efficiently across the servers? Those are the kinds, and then guide our customers to make use of that. Those are the kinds of challenges that we're trying to unlock the value of the data by making sure we're (indistinct). >> There are a lot of lessons learned from, you know, classic HPC and some of the, you know big data analytics. Like, you know, Hadoops of the world, you know, you know distributor processing for crunching a large amount of amount of data. >> With the growth of the cloud, you see, you know, some pundits saying that data centers will become obsolete in five years, and everything's going to move to the cloud. Obviously data center market that's still growing, and is projected to continue to grow. But what's the argument for captive hardware, for owning a data center these days when the cloud offers such convenience and allegedly cost benefit? >> I would say the reality is that we're, and I think the industry at large has acknowledged this, that we're living in a multicloud world and multicloud methods are going to be necessary to you know, to solve problems and compete. And so, I mean, you know, in some cases, whether it's security or latency, you know, there's a push to have things in your own data center. And then of course growth at the edge, right? I mean, that's, that's really turning, you know, things on their head, if you will, getting data closer to where it's being generated. And so I would say we're going to live in this edge cloud, you know, and core data center environment with multi, you know, different cloud providers providing solutions and services where it makes sense, and it's incumbent on us to figure out how do we stitch together that data platform, that data layer, and help customers, you know, synthesize this data to, to generate, you know, the results they need. >> You know, one of the things I want to get into on the cloud you mentioned that Paul, is that we see the rise of graph databases. And so is that on the radar for the AI? Because a lot of more graph data is being brought in, the database market's incredibly robust. It's one of the key areas that people want performance out of. And as cloud native becomes the modern application development, a lot more infrastructure as code's happening, which means that the internet and the networks and the process should be programmable. So graph database has been one of those things. Have you guys done any work there? What's some data there you can share on that? >> Yeah, actually, you know, we have worked closely with a company called TigerGraph, there in the graph database space. And we have done a couple of case studies, one on the healthcare side, and the other one on the financial side for fraud detection. Yeah, I think they have a, this is an emerging area, and we are able to demonstrate industry leading performance for graph databases. Very excited about it. >> Yeah, it's interesting. It brings up the vertical versus horizontal applications. Where is the AI HPC kind of shining? Is it like horizontal and vertical solutions or what's, what's your vision there. >> Yeah, well, I mean, so this is a case where I'm also a user. So I own our analytics platform internally. We actually, we have a chat box for our product development organization to figure out, hey, what trends are going on with the systems that we sell, whether it's how they're being consumed or what we've sold. And we actually use graph database technology in order to power that chat box. So I'm actually in a position where I'm like, I want to get these new systems into our environment so we can deliver. >> Paul: Graphs under underlie most machine learning models. >> Yeah, Yeah. >> So we could talk about, so much to talk about in this space, so little time. And unfortunately we're out of that. So fascinating discussion. Brian Payne, Dell Technologies, Raghu Nambiar, AMD. Congratulations on the successful launch of your new chip set and the growth of, in your relationship over these past years. Thanks so much for being with us here on theCUBE. >> Super. >> Thank you much. >> It's great to be back. >> We'll be right back from SuperComputing 22 in Dallas. (upbeat music)

>>From around the globe. It's the cube presenting cube on cloud brought to you by Silicon angle. >>Welcome back to coupon cloud I'm Paul Gillan enterprise editor of Silicon angle. You know, as we look ahead at what is in store for the cloud this year, one of the intriguing possibilities that has emerged is the rise of vertical clouds. IBM has been a leader in this area with its launch in late 19 of the IBM financial services cloud. That's a services ready public cloud with exceptional security, as well as Polly, a policy framework for certifying compliance and services from the IBM subsidiary. Promintory now with the IBM financial services cloud, uh, that has been a major focus of our next guest, Hillary Hunter. She is the vice president and CTO of IBM cloud and IBM fellow and a veteran of, I believe, three previous appearances on the cube. Am I right Hillary? >>Yep. Sounds about right. Great to be back here today. >>Thanks for joining us. So let's start with getting an update on the IBM financial services cloud. What progress have you made in signing up customers and your ecosystem of partners? >>Yeah, you know, we've made really significant progress, uh, progress in advancing the IBM cloud for financial services since we last talked, you know, and, and we're really at that place of establishing a trusted platform for the industry, just in, you know, some specifics in addition to bank of America, which we had talked about as our us anchor partner for the program. Um, we've announced several global banks, um, that are partnering with us for the global expansion of the program, including BNP party, you know, which is one of Europe's largest banks. Um, more than 70 ASVs are signed up with us now as part of the program and adopting IBM cloud for financial services, this level of sort of ecosystem is, is exciting because it means that, you know, banks will have the opportunity to, to transform what they're doing, but do so in a way, which is driven by security and compliance, um, so that they can be confident in those deployments on IBM cloud for financial services. >>We also released the IBM cloud policy framework for financial services. This is both the sort of security and compliance posture of the environment, as well as, you know, guidance on controls, reference architectures automation to help people on board. And so both ISBNs and banks now are able to, um, onboard to this environment and offer their wares and deploy their workloads. So it's a really exciting state for us on the program. And we're really in a place where there'll be, you know, an ongoing cadence of, you know, additional releases and announcements of additional partnerships and clients. So it's an exciting time in the program. >>Uh, one of the distinctive features I think of this, uh, of this launch is that you're working actively with your customers. They're working with you on building policy frameworks, as well as I imagined the features that you're offering on the cloud. How do you orchestrate all of these different customers and get them involved and actually co-development >>Yeah. You know, it's the ecosystem conversation and the partnership conversation are two of the fundamental aspects of the program. Like you said, this isn't, you know, just us sitting off in a bubble, inventing the future. Um, you know, we're working internally with partners, uh, within IBM like IBM Promintory, um, which is a consultancy that has deep, deep regulatory expertise and in jurisdictions globally with IBM security services. And then with these individual partners and banks and clients, one of the ways that we bring everything together is through our councils. So our council, our cloud council for financial services, um, it's where we have global systemically important financial institutions partnered with us and, and working together with one another. And, and that covers, you know, CIO is it covers chief security officers, risk officers, et cetera. Um, so we have some formality around how we work with, um, all of these partners, uh, really as a body and as a group. >>And what have you learned from this experience? I mean, if you were to go into the, uh, into other vertical clouds, what have been the lessons >>Ecosystem is so important, right? It's as I look at this space, I see that, you know, everyone has an existing business, they have a platform they're running, they have clients they're trying to service. Um, but those, the software providers into this space are looking themselves to transform their they're looking to transform from being a software vendors, to being SAS providers, the banks and financial institutions themselves are looking to transform from working on their own premises to benefit from the Alaska city and the scale and the optionality of, you know, that being in public cloud provides. So there's a lot of, um, parties themselves that are trying to transform and a lot of vendors into the financial space that are looking to transform. And in that time of a lot of change ecosystem is, is absolutely key. And so, um, the ISE and SAS providers, you know, providing their wares on the cloud for financial services is, is really just as important as those financial services institutions so that everyone can make that transition together. Um, and so that banks that are looking to digitally transform can, can leverage partners that are really at the forefront of that change in that innovation and in platforms for the industry. >>Would you say that there are, is this the first of many, I mean, are there going to be other vertical financial or other vertical IBM clouds or is the range of industries that really need that kind of specificity limited? >>I think it's, it's actually not limited, you know, though, I will say that within the space of industries that are heavily regulated, there's obviously a deeper need for sort of specific cloud embodiments and cloud implementation. So regulated industries like insurance, like telco healthcare, et cetera. Um, these are the ones I think, where there's the greatest opportunity to do verticals that are specific to industry. Um, but you know, as we look at this, this is absolutely part of an IBM cloud strategy to deliver industry specific clouds. And, and, and this comes from our decades of expertise, right? Even in financial services, being able to leverage, you know, those other entities within IBM that I mentioned, right. You know, our, our regulatory, um, background with companies, you know, having helped them address regulatory needs for specific industries, and then translating that into cloud and cloud technologies. Right. And, and then coming up from the other side, you know, in terms of the technologies themselves, we've partnered with key industries, um, to deliver security and data protection and cryptography technologies and such on premises. And we're contextualizing that now for cloud and public cloud deployments. And so it kind of brings together the pieces of decades of expertise and platforms and technology and regulations and contextualizes it into cloud. And I absolutely think that's, you know, an opportunity for, for other industries as well. >>Can you give us a bit of a preview? I mean, do you have specific industries in mind? Is there a time? >>Yeah, so, so, uh, late last year we did announce a second industry specific cloud initiative and that was IBM cloud for telco. So we have in that ecosystem now over 40 partners that are announced, that are working with IBM and with red hat, especially with, um, clients and partners that are looking to help with that transition into 5g and increasing use of IOT. 5g is really this disruptive opportunity for that industry. And, and also just for many other different types of companies and institutions that are looking to deploy with more efficiency, better operational efficiency, deploy with AI capabilities, really being able to do things that like cellular network edge, um, and the places that they're doing business using IOT devices and 5g will enable much of that to really transform and flourish. So a couple of the partners, initially, in addition to that ecosystem that I mentioned in cloud for telco, um, you know, we've got Samsung working with us, Nokia ATNT, et cetera. Um, and so, you know, these, these partnerships and, and capabilities around network edge, um, and specific capabilities in cloud for telco, um, are sort of that second, you know, public announcement that we've made around industry specific cloud, >>As far as your competitive position is concerned. I mean, are, are you taking away business from your competitors when you partner with these, these telcos and these banks, or is this an entirely new line of business that was not previously in the cloud? >>Yeah. You know, these are really, I think in, by and large new opportunities as we look at, you know, for example, how we as customers expect to engage with, um, you know, our bank, right. You know, we are looking to increasingly engage with a bank in a digital way, use our applications, use mobile devices. We're looking for, you know, individual bank outlets, uh, branch outlets of, of a banking institution to be increasingly smart, to service our needs, you know, more quickly, et cetera. Um, and so as we look at, you know, 5g and telco edge, it's about delivery of sort of smarter capabilities and such. I think much of it really is about in this digital transformation space about, you know, creating new capabilities, creating new experiences, creating new ways of engagement, um, and engagement and an opportunity to customize and personalize. Um, I think most of those are sort of new experiences and new capabilities for most companies. >>So speak about IBM's positioning right now. I mean, you're not one of the big three cloud providers to, to become one. Uh, but you do have as a big cloud business and, uh, you've, you've got the verticals, you've got the multi-cloud, uh, I know IBM is big, has been a big champion of multi-cloud. I mean, how is IBM distinctively positioned in the cloud market right now? >>Yeah. You know, we are all in, on hybrid cloud and AI. And if you listened to our CEO and chairman, you'll hear that it is a really consistent message. And he, since he came into his role as, as our CEO, um, so being all in, on hybrid cloud and AI, you know, we really are looking to help our clients transform into holistic cloud architecture. Right? So, so when I say all in, on hybrid cloud, I mean that, you know, it's, there's been a lot of sort of, I jokingly say random acts of cloud usage, right? People have ended up using cloud because there's some SAS function that they want, or some particular line of business has been highly motivated to pursue some service on a particular cloud. And hybrid cloud is really about taking a step back, having a holistic architecture for cloud consumption. And in that sense, you know, uh, clouds, uh, are IBM's partners. >>Um, and we're really looking to enable our clients to have consistency in their deployments to consolidate across their it estate and across their cloud deployments so that they can have, um, a common platform, so they can have efficiency in how their developers to like capabilities. So they can deploy more quickly with security and compliance patterns and have oversight over everything that's going on in a consistent way that really enables them to have that velocity in their business. And so when we then, you know, positioned things like industry cloud, we're leveraging IBM specific technologies to deliver differentiated capabilities and data privacy, data protection, security compliance, where these industries in public cloud. Yes. But it's in the context of helping our clients overall across all the different things. Some of which may not need all of that data privacy or, or, or be leveraging particular SAS content we're looking to help them really have cloud architecture have a holistic conversation across hybrid cloud. Um, and yet to still be able to choose particular cloud deployments on our cloud for industries, um, that enables data protection and policy for the most sensitive and, and enterprise grade things that they're looking to do at the core of their business. >>So speaking of hybrid hybrid cloud, I mean the major cloud providers, Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Oracle, and other one all have on premises offerings right now. Uh, several of them are working with telcos to expand their reach out into, uh, into co-location and into telecom, uh, data centers. Uh, all of these things were to enable is this distributed cloud fabric kind of a hybrid cloud fabric what's, IBM's play in this area. Uh, do you have a similar strategy or is it different? >>I really think, and I think you maybe wanted to get a little bit into sort of, you know, trends and predictions here in this conversation and, and, and, you know, we, we absolutely see that need for distributed cloud for cloud to really kind of be alive in all the places where it needs to be in, in all the places that someone is doing business and in a consistent way across cloud environments, um, to be one of those major trends, that's emerging as a really hot conversation. We have introduced IBM cloud satellite, um, that is IBM's hybrid cloud as a service platform, um, and enables our clients to leverage, um, uh, OpenShift and Kubernetes environments, developer tooling, uh, consistency in a cloud catalog, visibility and control over all their resources, um, across different environments. And to be able to run end, to end with consistency from on-premises to edge to different public cloud providers. >>Um, and this is absolutely something that across industries, but, you know, within also those industries that we're focused on in particular, um, that we're seeing a lot of interesting conversations emerge because if cloud is sort of everywhere, if cloud is distributed and can be on premises and in public cloud, it enables this consistency in this parody, um, really that sort of brings together that, that seamlessness, not just the random acts cloud usage, right? I mean, it means that using cloud, um, can be something that, that drives, you know, speed of release of new product. It means that you can deliver more capability and functionality into, you know, a retail outlet where you're doing business or a banking, you know, brick and mortar location. Um, you can have, you know, AI for it ops and understand what's going on across those different environments and ensure things are kept secure and patched and updated, and you're responding to incidents in efficient ways. Um, and so really having a consistent cloud environment and a distributed cloud environment across different locations, um, it's really key to leveraging the promises of what everyone had originally hoped to get out of out of cloud computing. >>Of course, one of IBM's distinctive, uh, advantages of this area is you've got a huge hardware install base out there. I mean, how do all those three 60 mainframes figuring it out, figure into this, >>Um, with the OpenShift capabilities in our Clara operations with red hat in this area, we are able to actually help our clients leverage Kubernetes and Linux and all those things, even on the mainframe. So across the mainframe family, the IBM power family, um, you know, where folks may also have AIX or IBMI deployments, people can now do Lennox, they can do open shifts, they can do Coopernetti's. Um, and we have core technologies that enable that really to be stitched together. And I think that's one of the unique perspectives that IBM has in this whole conversation about hybrid cloud. Um, there are many different definitions of hybrid cloud, but we really view it as stretching from the traditional enterprise. It, like you said, there's a lot of it out there and being able to also incorporate OpenShift and Kubernetes in a common cloud platform, um, on traditional enterprise, it on private cloud, on fresh deployments, on private cloud, Amazon public cloud, that really is the whole it estate. So when we talk about hybrid cloud, when we talk about distributed cloud, really talking about the entirety of VIT state, not just sort of new deployments of, of SAS or something like that. >>So as someone who's on the front lines of, you know, what customers are asking about cloud, do you see customer the questions that they're asking changing? Are they, are they their decision criteria changing for how they choose a cloud provider? >>Yeah. You know, I think that, um, there's definitely a lot more conversation, especially in this current era where there's an accelerated rate of cloud adoption. Um, there's a lot more conversation around things like security, um, data protection, data, privacy, being able to run in an environment that you trust, not just is it a cloud and what does it do, but can I trust it? Do I understand how my data is protected, how my workloads are secured? Um, you know, that's really why we started cloud for financial services because that industry shepherds such vital data, right? So the reason that they are highly regulated is because of the importance of what they are stewarding very important data and financial information. Um, so, you know, we began there with the cloud for regulated industries there with, with financial services, but I see that across all industries, I was participating on a panel, um, that was, uh, with a bunch of CEOs. >>And I was there interviewing some CEOs who were from a much more sort of consumer facing and also from, from foods industry, et cetera. And their conversation was exactly the same as I have with many other clients, which is that their cloud choices, their efficiency and cloud deployment now are largely driven by the ability to get to a secure posture and the ability to demonstrate their, to their internal security and risk teams that they understand their data protection, data, privacy posture. So we are seeing lots of pickup and, and conversation opportunity around confidential competing specifically. Um, and you know, that's really about enabling, uh, our clients to have full authority and privacy in their computing, in their code and their data, even when running in a cloud environment. And so I do see a shift everyone's more concerned about security, and I think we have great technologies and we've been working with core partners to establish and harden and, and create, um, generations of technology that can really answer those questions. >>I have to ask you about that term confidential computing. I haven't heard that before. What, what does that involve? >>Yeah. You know, it's, it is a buzzword to watch out here for an in 2021. So confidential computing means being able to run in an environment where there are others in a, in a cloud computing environment, for example, um, but still have full privacy and authority over what you're doing. So you are effectively in an enclave, uh, imagine yourself sort of protected and secured. And so our confidential competing technologies, um, we're actually on basically our fourth generation of, of, of the hardware and software technologies to create that strong degree of isolation. Um, this enables us to deliver a really rich portfolio. Um, frankly, the, the, the richest portfolio in the industry of actuals services delivered, um, using confidential, competing and secure enclaves. And so we can enable our customers to solution things in a way, for example, where their data, you know, can not even be visible to our cloud operators or where they, uh, retain, you know, full control over, you know, a database and have full privacy as they're running in that environment. Um, these are really great, um, you know, considerations, but they impact everything from health care financial services. Uh, we have other partners and clients who are working to protect consumer data, um, you know, through these means et cetera. And so, um, across different industries, everyone's really looking at this topic of data, privacy, data protection. Um, and so we have a whole suite and whole family of confidential competing based, uh, services that we're able to offer to, uh, offer those assurances and that privacy to them in their cloud competing. >>I do have to ask you about the multi-cloud because this is a topic of constant debate in the industry of whether customers want to move shift workloads across multiple clouds to protect themselves from lock-in. I mean, is that a fantasy? Is that real? Is that a too restrictive? Uh, this has been a key part of IBM strategy is enabling the multi-cloud. How do you see customer attitudes developing right now? How do they want to use multiple clouds or in fact, do they, are they, are they, uh, concentrating perhaps more of their workloads in one or two? >>Yeah. You know, we believe vendor locking goes against the true spirit of hybrid cloud, right. Um, that desire to have consistency across environments, um, that desire to, uh, and the business need to have, you know, continuity and resiliency and operations, et cetera. Um, and so I do see this as a really important topic, um, from the perspective of, you know, managing environments, I think in multi-cloud, um, I think folks are starting to realize that multicloud isn't necessarily a strategy. It's a reality. Um, people have deployments in lots of different cloud environments, um, that happened somewhat organically in many cases. And so the key question is how to then get to visibility and control over those resources. Um, I think kind of two of the, the, the core topics in that are multicloud management, um, you know, being able to understand, you know, clusters and virtual machines and other things that are deployed across different environments and manage them with a common set of policies, for example. >>Um, and then in addition to multicloud management, um, I, for it, operations is another really important topic in, in multi-cloud being able to respond to incidents, understand and analyze and leverage AI, um, for what's going on for understanding what's going on across those environments, um, is another really core topic. And then as you said, you know, distributed cloud is a means of getting that consistency, having a common, you know, control and deployment plane across those different environments, um, can help it not just be sort of accidental usage of multiple cloud environments, but very intentional deployment based on the needs of particular workloads to the environment that they're best suited to. Um, and, and that's really what you want to aim for. Um, not that multi-cloud is necessarily, um, you know, uh, uh, I guess I would say is, is it is a, um, it is a complexity that is manageable, um, through these, you know, new types of technologies and multicloud management and such like that, and cloud >>Well, uh, Hillary TIS, the season for predictions is January, uh, everyone's prognostic table of what the future will look like. What do you think are going to be the main trend lines in cloud this year? Yeah, >>You know, I, I sort of sprinkled a few in there as we were talking, but I really do think that, um, the conversation around hybrid cloud number one, how to have an open innovation ecosystem for cloud, where, um, you have a consistency across environments, you know, not just random acts of cloud usage, but intentional and holistic architecture. Um, I really see that as the transition to sort of the second wave of, of cloud adoption. Um, and then secondly, as we were talking earlier about security, right, everyone is wondering about data policy and data privacy. Um, we've always taken a strong stance that, you know, our client's data is, is, is their data. We are not going to be using their data to, you know, further develop our, um, you know, AI services on our cloud or something. Um, we have deployed technologies and confidential computing that enabled them to keep full control over their keys so that, you know, even our caught operators center have access to data, um, competing in secure enclaves, where they have a strong degree of isolation and full privacy and authority over their workload. >>I really think, you know, these two topics open and secure hybrid computing and with consistency across environments, but distributed cloud technology. Um, and secondly, security, I think these are really important topics for 2021, and they may seem a little bit obvious, but I think it's important as people look at this to look for technologies that are multiple generations into this journey, right. Um, you know, partner with, um, folks who, um, are, you know, committed, uh, very clearly to an open ecosystem and open source innovation on the one hand. Um, and secondly, you know, um, when we talk about security and data protection, you want to know that that provider is several generations into that journey. Um, you know, so you really know that that technology has been vetted out is that production scale and has the stable basis. And so I think this is the year when folks are transitioning from cloud adoption, uh, to consistency in cloud and security and privacy in cloud >>Final question. And it has nothing to do with cloud. You're an IBM fellow. And I see that term, uh, turn up occasionally with other other people I've spoken to from IBM, what is it? IBM fellow, how do you become one and what right. Privileges and responsibilities as an entail. >>Yeah. You know, it's an exciting opportunity to be an IBM fellow. There's about a hundred active IBM fellows, um, right now. Um, so there aren't too many of us, but there is a small community of us. Um, IBM fellow is IBM's highest technical designation within our technical population. Um, so I do have a role within our cloud business. Um, but as one of our technical leaders, um, get to interact with the other fellows, um, you know, work on strategy for IBM in technology overall as a company. Um, and I also get to sort of be a trusted advisor to many of our clients. And so, um, I get to with CTOs and CEOs and VP of application development, um, you know, kind of, kind of profiles and VP of, of it and things like that, um, in our different clients and really help them wrestle through those struggles, um, of, you know, future it transformation. >>And so, um, you know, part of what I enjoy most about sort of the role and, and the fellow role is, is being able to kind of be that trusted advisor to many of our clients. There's been so much change in this last year for everyone. Um, and being able to, you know, also, you know, help our technical population through that, you know, in various means and then help our clients, um, through all of that change and really being able to take and grasp onto the opportunities, um, that this last year has had in the way that we work has changed. And the way that companies are looking to deliver capabilities has changed. Um, so that's, for me, the exciting part of, of the role, >>Or you're wondering a hundred then, and you do a great job of articulating the IBM strategy and also the, uh, the cloud landscape, Hillary Hunter, VP and CTO, excuse me, CTO of IBM cloud. Thank you so much for joining us today on Cuban cloud. >>Thanks so much for having me. It was a pleasure. >>I'm Paul Gillan stick with us.

>> Announcer: Live from Boston, Massachusetts, it's theCUBE. Covering IFS World Conference 2019. Brought to you by IFS. >> Welcome back to Boston everybody, you're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. My name is Dave Vellante, I'm here with my co-host Paul Gillin. This is IFS World Conference 2019, theCUBE's second year covering this conference. Michael Ouissi is here. He's the Chief Customer Officer at IFS. And Raul Sahas. Industry Partner, Enterprise Application Services at TCS, a platinum partner at IFS World. Gents, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for having us. >> You're very welcome. So last night I poked around the customer event and I was impressed with the number of partners here. I think the number is 400, is the public number. What is it about the ecosystem that's attracted to IFS? >> Well, first of all, I think the ecosystem has now understood that we have renewed our commitment to the ecosystem. That is something a shift in mindset in IFS that is demanded by our customers, that our customers actually ask of us especially while we're moving into also more global corporations, and win more business there. They appreciate the choice of either IFS or our partners, or a combination of our partners and IFS actually helping them deliver the value that they expect from an ERP solution. >> So Rahul, from your perspective, so TCS you're obviously platinum partner so you're making a big investment. Why, what's happening in the market place? Where's the momentum with the tailwind? >> If you look at TCS, TCS is obviously helping customers to become business 4.0 organization, which is all about harnessing the abundance of possibilities around digital technologies and getting more intelligent, better, lean, harmonized, standardized. And so that's where we believe we are partnering with, and we are trying to leverage the ecosystem and one of the ecosystem obviously partners are IFS, which is a strategy partnership for us. And we believe that the investments that IFS has made and some of the unique last-mile solutions are going to help us to deliver those different shaded offerings to the customer, and create newer partnerships with them. >> Michael your role is a net new role at IFS, did you get to write your own job description? I guess, what does a Chief Customer Officer do? >> Well, first of all, well, in a sense yes. We actually did specify exactly what that role is, and we did discuss what the best is for the journey we want to get on, when Darren asked me to take on the role. And what a Chief Customer Officer does, and there's a specific reason why we're doing it that way, a Chief Customer Officer really is heading up, and that's what I'm doing, is I'm heading up all customer-facing functions within IFS. So from sales, to pre-sales, to support, to services. So it's all the customer-facing functions, coming from how do we engage with a customer, pre-sales, and after sales. And the reason why we did it that way is we wanted to have complete ownership and accountability for the transformation that we underwent and that we wanted to go through because we really needed to make sure that all parts of the business were aligning around this transformation, and pulling in the same direction. And that's why this role got created newly. >> So what's the nature of the partnership, what the history of the partnership? How did it start, and where do you guys want to take it? >> Well I think we have a obviously longstanding partnership with IFS. And I think both of the organizations have a deep mutual respect. And I think that one thing that we are trying to see the centricity around our partnership is all about the customer. We keep the customer and we want to ensure that we help our customers. We're customer-first organizations. And obviously the investments that IFS made, especially in the field services area, ERP area. I guess those are the areas which is helping, because ERP, if you see, one of the strategic lever for an organization to elevate their digital agenda, and get the right infrastructure in place, the right partner in place, to ensure that they create a differentiation and create exponential value for the customer. And that's exactly where IFS and TCS are looking at the market, and ensuring that we are helping our customer create exponential value for themselves in the market. >> Michael: Yeah and I think that maybe adding to that, we share the same belief as well that actually the time of the monolithic ERP, one solution for a huge enterprise- >> Who are you talking about? (Laughter) >> They are gone, those days are gone. I think it's about blended solutions where the ERP is much more agile, it has to be much more open and allow for much more agile deployments and much more agile development around the core ERP. So that actually customers can digitally transform, because it's all about speed. And TCS sees it the same way so we've got the same view. >> But the cloud mindset has changed that right Paul? >> Absolutely. And Rahul I'm interested the companies like Tata historically have done a lot of custom development work for customers that we have been hearing from Darren on down today is no customization. What value do you add to a customer bringing in an IFS solution? >> See there are two things here, very simple. One is basically customers are moving from best in class to the sub-breed, that's quite evident. And secondly, while IFS brings the software expertise, we bring the industry expertise. We bring the domain expertise. We bring the SI, system integration expertise. And that's where, it's a very strategic combination. Strategic combination is helping the customer to get the right software, the right domain expertise, the right industry expertise. And together they're helping them to address their business requirements, business need, and last mile critical mile needs that they need to differentiate themselves in the marketplace. And, as a result, create exponential value, and also, a great customer experience for the customers. >> Paul: So, how does that engage and differ from a more traditional one where you would come in and you would build custom screens and custom processes? You're not doing that. Now, what does that relationship look like? >> Yeah so I think if you see the scratch approach, obviously it has really transformed over the course of time. Customers are wanting off the shelf, out of the box products. Best of the beat products to help them differentiate their business function, create exponential value for the customer for that business function as a matter of say, service. If I look at fin services as an example, and you talk about telcos, you talk about utilities. Where last mile delivery, last mile solution for that customer is very very important to create the positive customer experience. And the investments that IFS have made in there makes them a premium choice. And that's where I believe that developing something with scratch means you know you're boarding the entire ocean again. And whereas we have got softwares like, IFS build softwares which have invested their years of expertise, the years of, I would say, competency in building that. Getting the best of the breed solution, get the best KPIs into there in this solution, gives the customer a choice. A ready choice to take, to expedite their time to reality, time to value, and time to production reality. >> So, a few times now, Raoul, you've mentioned last mile solutions. I like that term, I think it has meaning. Especially deep in specific industries. And I think the intent is so that you don't have to do customizations. And I asked Aaron about tailoring, which he said, I wouldn't use that word. That wasn't my word, by the way, that was Christian's word. He used that in his keynote. So I'm trying to understand here. I think what Christian meant is look, we got this API platform to allow people to bring in whatever solutions they want, if it's a RPA solution, or a blockchain solution, or some AI module, they can bring that in and tailor it for their needs, as opposed to customizing the software. Is that correct? >> I think when you listen to Darren, what he's talking about is customizing the core, which very often has happened in the past, where customizations have gone into the core, have been mandated to be on the core platform, which then actually has customers being stuck at some stage on the platform upgrades becoming paid for. So with Christian's talk track around the APIs, API enabling the whole solution so that the core actually remains untouched. There will always be customizations, because customers need to differentiate. But they will be outside the core. There will be a level that you can upgrade the core solutions, you will have those maintained either application services, which will be custom out of the box solutions, best in breed, that actually tap into what we're doing. Or actually you'll have bespoke solutions that you will write yourself, and that is then a choice a customer can make, but without actually having the pain of not being able to upgrade the very stable, very performant transactional backbone. >> So the API announcements give you guys a real opportunity to do integrations, right? And it's been harder to do integrations. But that now, to your previous question, opens up I would think a whole new tam for you all. Can you comment? >> Oh absolutely. As I said, bringing exponential value means integrating and delivering a frictionless business. And that's where it'll fit in, rightly fit in, and obviously that would result in creating exponential value for the customer. Not only they can differentiate themselves from the market but also get their product faster to the market, and ensure that also focus on custom centers as we are. >> So the core can be, it should be, Evergreen. We want people to get the new version as soon as possible. Bug fixes, security updates, et cetera. >> New functionality. >> New functionality, avoid custom mods, but rely on service providers and partners to do further integrations that make sense. >> Rahul, I want to ask you the same question we just asked Melissa Di Donato about digital transformation. I'm sure your company does a lot of that kind of consulting work. What are the mistakes that companies make that we hear that these transformation products, most of them fail. What are the biggest mistakes that companies make? >> Let me put it this way. I think there are three elements to it. I think digital transformation, see I think creating the agenda for the digital transformation, what you're expecting out of it is very very important. Creating a charter, what you want to expect, what is the output of it. Where do you want to take it. What does a futuristic organization on a digital platform means? It's very very important. I think if you look at TCS, our vision has been helping the customer get into a business 4.0 enterprise. I think we have made the agenda very very very clear. Now how we can mass personalize the experience for the customer, how you can leverage the ecosystem, how you can basically help the customer embrace the risk, and obviously harness the abundance. I believe these are the pillars of any transformation, or digital transformation, that customers are taking. I believe if we can stick to these agendas, I think getting to the production reality, seeing the success has become more evident. If you're going to go to the nitty gritty, I think there are many things, looking at the processes, making sure that they are harmonized, standardized and rationalized, getting the right KPIs in the business. So I think these are things that is very very important as a precursor to our digital transformation. Once we do that, we know that roads ahead will be much smoother than what it looks like. >> Is it more important to do a transformation with the customer at the center, with operational efficiency at the center, or can it be either? >> The customer centricity is very very key to all our organization at this point of time, because if you look at any organization at this point of time, they're looking at the customer experience as the top most agenda. Keeping the customer experience on the agenda, when you're trying to keep that agenda, it means that you are trying to bring up a customer first organization. So customer first organization, it just doesn't mean that you have a very intelligent front office, but also have a very intelligent back office. And gluing this two together, very intelligent mid office. So I guess customer centricity has to be on the top of the agenda, and then you have to ensure that your processes are streamlined, harmonized, standardized, lean, to meet that objective. >> Makes sense. >> So I think, for customer centricity, so I feel as though, but part of that's cultural, you know? And it's true, you said this earlier this morning. Some companies are customer centrics, some are product centric, some are competitive. And you can kind of tell the difference, especially when you're a customer. But I think true customer centricity mandates data access as central to the philosophy, the core. And I think the role that ERP provider or vendor provides is you have a data pipeline that gives access to an organization such that a digital transformation allows them to put data at their core, and then build whatever processes around it. I think that's a real challenge for incumbents especially where data's all over the place, in different stove pipes and silos. But your thoughts on the role of data in terms of digital transformation, and IFS's role in that regard? >> Okay. >> A long-winded question, but I haven't heard enough about data I guess. >> Okay, (laughs) I'll try it, sweet and short. I think data is absolutely key to anything we do. Once you have and when you go into a digital transformation, what you need to start with in my humble view is you need to start with what business outcome do you want to achieve? Most of the time it's customer centricity, it's something centered around the customer which you want to achieve. That will define both the digital transformation agenda, the KPI's you're measuring to, but also the flow of data and processes. So you will need to build your digital transformation agenda around the targets you have, and then define where does data need to reside, which data do I need to fulfill on that outcome? And I think that consistency going through that whole chain is actually something that very often isn't at the moment taken into account, but it's very often isolated efforts to do something fast without actually looking at the implications of what kind of transactional engine do I need, what kind of data exits do I need, and how do I get through the process to the KPI that I want to influence? >> Okay, and let me peel the onion on that, and I'd love for your thoughts. To me when you talk to a C-suite executive, what that business outcome ultimately comes down to is I want to increase revenue, so I want to cut my cost. Now of course if you're in a different hospital, you want to save lives. But generally in a commercial business, increase revenue, cut cost. Now how I get there, I might want to have a better customer service organization to get cohort sales or follow on sales. I mean the strategy is different. But it comes back to data and how data affects the monetization of my organization, whether it's increasing revenue or cutting cost. Do you buy that premise, or am I just simplifying it too much? >> No, completely agreed. I think in a business world it's always either top line or bottom line, but the challenges are obviously very different from company to company and from industry to industry. So if you're looking at manufacturing companies, trying to actually be less commoditized and getting into a situation where they stabilize revenue streams, increase margins, servitization is the name of the game. Very different value proposition to, for example in the finance industry, in banking and insurance. So there are very different models here where there it's about ease of use and speed of actually interacting and transacting as a customer with the company. So very different value propositions, very different data streams you need to tap into. And things you need to know about your customer, and know about the service you're providing. So completely agree with it is always about revenue and cost, that's what businesses are in for. But eventually, data is at the core, but how to get that data, which data you need, that is then specific to each. >> And bringing it back to IFS, your ability to go that last mile as you've been saying Rahul allows companies to think, construction and engineering, supply chain, contractors, just more efficiently managing their ecosystem, their resources to either cut costs or do more business and scale. >> Exactly. And that's really where the whole idea of API, enabling the whole suite came from, enabling the reuse of services, the reuse of data within those services, exposing it transparently, making it available for customers to then use in their digital transformation effort. Whatever they need. We can't predict and we can't actually preempt what a customer will need, we'll just need to make it all available, and then with partners like TCS, make sure we actually go on to the right journey with a customer to digitally transform and use the right data streams. We can make it easy and accessible. >> And that's the different between a platform and a product. To the extent that you can deliver an API-enabled system, it becomes a platform that you can evolve versus a product that you install and manage. Final thoughts, Rahul? >> I think what we discussed obviously, I fully agree on that. And as I mentioned that our take is to ensure that we have the customer built future systems enterprises, and we believe our partnership with IFS is a very key and strategic partnership for us to achieve the same, and we have some early success, and we want to ensure that we scale that, we ensure we go to the market together, and create a differentiation for our customers. >> Michael, your thoughts. Where do you want to see this ecosystem go? >> Where do I want to see it go? Well I want to see it thrive. I want partners to be successful with their customers on IFS implementations. That's what our ambition is. We need to provide world class technology, a world class platform, as you said, that actually then can be used to help the digital transformation that all our customers will have to go through in one or the other way. >> Success is outcome driven. Good outcomes mean people come back, more business? >> Absolutely, absolutely. >> Exactly. >> That's core to our DNA, I'm sure core to DNA to IFS as well. Repeat customers. >> Congratulations on the partnerships, and good luck going forward. >> Thank you very much. >> Appreciate you coming on theCUBE, you're welcome. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> All right thank you for watching everybody, we'll be right back with our next guest, Paul Gillan and Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE. (electronic jingle)

>> From Cambridge, Massachusetts it's theCUBE, covering MIT Chief Data Officer and Information Quality Symposium 2019. Brought to you by, SiliconANGLE Media. >> Welcome back to Cambridge, Massachusetts, everybody. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live tech coverage. I'm Dave Vellante with my co-host, Paul Gillan. Chris Lynch, good friend is here CEO, newly minted CEO and AtScale and legend. Good to see you. >> In my own mind. >> In mine too. >> It's great to be here. >> It's awesome, thank you for taking time. I know how busy you are, you're running around like crazy your next big thing. I was excited to hear that you got back into it. I predicted it a while ago you were a very successful venture capitalists but at heart, you're startup guy, aren't ya? >> Yeah 100%, 100%. I couldn't be more thrilled, I feel invigorated. I think I've told you many times, when you've interviewed me and asked me about the transition from being an entrepreneur to being a VC and since it's a PG show, I've got a different analog than the one I usually give you. I used to be a movie star and now I'm an executive producer of movies. Now am back to being a movie star, hopefully. >> yeah well, so you told me when you first became a VC you said, I look for startups that have a 10X impact either 10X value, 10X cost reduction. What was it that attracted you to AtScale? What's the 10X? >> AtScale, addresses $150 billion market problem which is basically bringing traditional BI to the cloud. >> That's the other thing you told me, big markets. >> Yeah, so that's the first thing massive market opportunity. The second is, the innovation component and where the 10X comes we're uniquely qualified to virtualize data into the pipeline and out. So I like to say that we're the bridge between BI and AI and back. We make every BI user, a citizen data scientist and that's a game changer. And that's sort of the new futuristic component of what we do. So one part is steeped in, that $150 billion BI marketplace in a traditional analytics platforms and then the second piece is into you delivering the data, into these BI excuse me, these AI machine learning platforms. >> Do you see that ultimately getting integrated into some kind of larger, data pipeline framework. I mean, maybe it lives in the cloud or maybe on prem, how do you see that evolving over time? >> So I believe that, with AtScale as one single pane of glass, we basically are providing an API, to the data and to the user, one single API. The reason that today we haven't seen the delivery of the promise of big data is because we don't have big data. Fortunate 2000 companies don't have big data. They have lots of data but to me big data means you can have one logical view of that data and get the best data pumped into these models in these tools, and today that's not the case. They're constricted by location they're constricted by vendor they're constricted by whether it's in the cloud or on prem. We eliminate those restrictions. >> The single API, I think is important actually. Because when you look at some of these guys what they're doing with their data pipeline they might have 10 or 15 unique API's that they're trying to manage. So there's a simplification aspect to, I suppose. >> One of the knocks on traditional BI has always been the need for extract databases and all the ETL that goes that's involved in that. Do you guys avoid that stage? You go to the production data directly or what's the-- >> It's a great question. The way I put it is, we bring Moses to the mountain the mountain being the data, Moses being the user. Traditionally, what people have been trying to do is bring the mountain to Moses, doesn't scale. At AtScale, we provide an abstraction a logical distraction between the data and the BI user. >> You don't touch, you don't move the data. >> We don't move the data. Which is what's unique and that's what's delivering I think, way more than a 10X delivery in value. >> Because you leave the data in place you bring that value to wherever the data is. Which is the original concept of Hadoop, by the way. That was what was profound about Hadoop everybody craps on it now, but that was the game changer and if you could take advantage of that that's how you tap your 10X. >> To the difference is, we're not, to your point we're not moving the data. Hadoop, in my humble opinion why it plateaued is because to get the value, you had to ask the user to bring and put data in yet another platform. And the reason that we're not delivering on big data as an industry, I believe is because we've too many data sources, too many platforms too many consumers of data and too many producers. As we build all these islands of data, with no connectivity. The idea is, we'll create this big data lake and we're going to physically put everything in there. Guess what? Someday turned out to be never. Because people aren't going to deal with the business disruption. We move thousands of users from a platform like Teradata to a platform like Snowflake or Google BigQuery, we don't care. We're a multi-cloud and we're a hybrid cloud. But we do it without any disruption. You're using Excel, you just continue and use it. You just see the results are faster. You use Tableau, same difference. >> So we had all the vertical rock stars in here. So we had Colin in yesterday, we had Stonebraker around earlier. Andy Palmer just came on and Chris here with the CEO who ultimately sold the company to HP. That really didn't do anything with it and then spun it off and now it's back. Aaron was, he had a spring in his step yesterday. So when you think about, Vertica. The technology behind Vertica go back 10 years and where we come now give us a little journey of, your data journey. >> So I think it plays into the, the original assertion is that, vertical is a best-in-class platform for analytics but it was yet another platform. The analog I give now, is now we have Snowflake and six months, 12 months from now we're going to have another one. And that creates a set of problems if you have to live in the physical world. Because you've all these islands of data and I believe, it's about the data not about the models, it's about the data. You can't get optimal results if you don't have an optimal access to the pertinent data. I believe that having that Universal API is going to make the next platform that more valuable. You're not going to be making the trade-off is, okay we have this platform that has some neat capability but the trade-off is from an enterprise architecture perspective we're never going to be able to connect all this stuff. That's how all of these things proliferated. My view is, in a world where you have that single pane of glass, that abstraction layer between the user and the data. Then innovation can be spawned quicker and you can use these tools effectively 'cause you're not compromising being able to get a logical view of the data and get access to it as a user. >> What's your issue with Snowflake you mentioned them, Mugli's company-- >> No issue, they're a great partner of ours. We eliminate the friction between the user going from an on-prem solution to the cloud. >> Slootman just took over there. So you know where that's going. >> Yep (laughing) >> Frank's got the magic touch. Okay good, you say they're a partner yours how are you guys partnering? >> They refer us into customers that, if you want to buy Snowflake now the next issue is, how do i migrate? You don't. You put our virtualization layer in and then we allow you access to Snowflake in a non-disruptive way, versus having to move data into their system or into a particular cloud which creates sales friction. >> Moving data is just, you want to avoid it at all cost. >> I do want to ask you because I met with your predecessors, Dave Mariani last year and I know he was kind of a reluctant CEO he didn't really want to be CEO but wanted to be CTO, which is what he is now. How did that come about, that they found you that you connected with them and decided this was the right opportunity. >> That's a great question. I actually looked at the company at the seed stage when I was in venture, but I had this thing as you know that, I wanted to move companies to Boston and they're about my vintage age-wise and he's married with four kids so that wasn't in the cards. I said look, it doesn't make sense for me to seed this company 'cause I can't give you the time you're out in California everything I'm instrumenting is around Boston. We parted friends. And I was skeptical whether he could build this 'cause people have been talking about building a heterogeneous universal semantic layer, for years and it's never come to fruition. And then he read in Fortune or Forbes that I was leaving Accomplice and that I was looking for one more company to operate. He reached out and he told me what they were doing that hey, we really built it but we need help and I don't want to run this. It's not right for the company and the opportunity So he said, "I'll come and I'll consult to you." I put together a plan and I had my Vertica and data robot. NekTony guys do the technical diligence to make sure that the architecture wasn't wedded to the dupe, like all the other ones were and when I saw it wasn't then I knew the market opportunity was to take that, rifle and point it at that legacy $150 billion BI market not at the billion dollar market of Hadoop. And when we did that, we've been growing at 162% quarter-over-quarter. We've built development centers in Bulgaria. We've moved all operations, non-technical to Boston here down in our South Station. We've been on fire and we are the partner of choice of every cloud manner, because we eliminate the sales friction, for customers being able to take advantage of movement to the cloud and we're able through our intelligent pipeline and capability. We're able to reduce the cost significantly of queries because we understand and we were able to intelligently cash those queries. >> Sales ops is here, all-- >> Sales marketing, customer support, customer success and we're building a machine learning team here at Dev team here. >> Where are you in that sort of Boston build-out? >> We have an office on 711 Atlantic that we opened in the fall. We're actually moving from 4,000 square feet to 10,000 this month. In less than six months and we'll house by the first year, 100 employees in Boston 100 in Bulgaria and about that same hundred in San Mateo. >> Are you going after net new business mainly? Or there's a lot of legacy BI out there are you more displacing those products? >> A couple of things. What we find is that, customers want to evolve into the cloud, they don't want a revolution they want a evolution. So we allow them, because we support hybrid cloud to keep some data behind the firewall and then experiment with moving other data to the cloud platform of choice but we're still providing that one logical view. I would say most of our customers are looking to reap platform, off of Teradata or something onto a, another platform like Snowflake. And then we have a set of customers that see that as part of the solution but not the whole solution. They're more true hybrids but I would say that 80% of our customers are traditional BI customers that are trying to contemporize their environments and be able to take advantage of tabular support and multidimensional, the things that we do in addition to the cube world. >> They can keep whatever they're using. >> Correct, that's the key. >> Did you do the series D, you did, right? >> Yes, Morgan Stanely led. >> So you're not actively but you're good for now, It was like $50 million >> Yeah we raised $50 million. >> You're good for a bit. Who's in the Chris Lynch target? (laughs) Who's the enemy? Vertica, I could say it was the traditional database guys. Who's the? >> We're in a unique position, we're almost Switzerland so we could be friend to foe, of anybody in that ecosystem because we can, non-disruptively re-platform customers between legacy platforms or from legacy platforms to the cloud. We're an interesting position. >> So similar to the file sharing. File virtualization company >> The Copier. >> Copier yeah. >> It puts us in an interesting position. They need to be friends with us and at the same time I'm sure that they're concerned about the capabilities we have but we have a number of retail customers for instance that have asked us to move down from Amazon to Google BigQuery, which we accommodate and because we can do that non-disruptively. The cost and the ability to move is eliminated. It gives customers true freedom of choice. >> How worried are you, that AWS tries to replicate what you guys do. You're in their sights. >> I think there are technical, legal and structural barriers to them doing that. The technical is, this team has been at it for six and a half years. So to do what we do, they'll have to do what we've done. Structurally from a business perspective if they could, I'm not sure they want to. The way to think about Amazon is, they're no different than Teradata, except for they want the same vendor lock-in except they want it to be the Amazon Cloud when Teradata wanted it to be, their data warehouse. >> They don't promote multi-cloud versus-- >> Yeah, they don't want multi-cloud they don't want >> On Prem >> Customers to have a freedom of choice. Would they really enable a heterogeneous abstraction layer, I don't think they would nor do I think any of the big guys would. They all claim to have this capability for their system. It's like the old IBM adage I'm in prison but the food's going to get three squares a day, I get cable TV but I'm in prison. (laughing) >> Awesome, all right, parting thoughts. >> Parting thoughts, oh geez you got to give me a question I'm not that creative. >> What's next, for you guys? What should we be paying attention to? >> I think you're going to see some significant announcements in September regarding the company and relationships that I think will validate the impact we're having in the market. >> Give you some leverage >> Yeah, will give us, better channel leverage. We have a major technical announcement that I think will be significant to the marketplace and what will be highly disruptive to some of the people you just mentioned. In terms of really raising the bar for customers to be able to have the freedom of choice without any sort of vendor lock-in. And I think that that will create some counter strike which we'll be ready for. (laughing) >> If you've never heard of AtScale before trust me you're going to in the next 18 months. Chris Lynch, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> It's my pleasure. >> Great to see you. All right, keep it right there everybody we're back with our next guest, right after this short break you're watching theCUBE from MIT, right back. (upbeat music)

>> Live from Boston, it's theCUBE, covering IBM Chief Data Officer Summit, brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of the IBM CDO Summit here in Boston, Massachusetts. I'm your host Rebecca Knight*, and I'm joined by cohost, Paul Gillan*. We have a guest today, John Thomas. He is the Distinguished Engineer and Director* at IBM. Thank you so much for coming, returning to theCUBE. You're a CUBE veteran, CUBE alum. >> Oh thank you Rebecca, thank you for having me on this. >> So tell our viewers a little bit about, you're a distinguished engineer. There are only 672 in all of IBM. What do you do? What is your role? >> Well that's a good question. Distinguished Engineer is kind of a technical executive role, which is a combination of applying the technology skills, as well as helping shape IBM strategy in a technical way, working with clients, et cetera. So it is a bit of a jack of all trades, but also deep skills in some specific areas, and I love what I do (laughs lightly). So, I get to work with some very talented people, brilliant people, in terms of shaping IBM technology and strategy. Product strategy, that is part of it. We also work very closely with clients, in terms of how to apply that technology in the context of the client's use status. >> We've heard a lot today about soft skills, the importance of organizational people skills to being a successful Chief Data Officer, but there's still a technical component. How important is the technical side? What is, what are the technical skills that the CDOs need? >> Well, this is a very good question Paul. So, absolutely, so, navigating the organizational structure is important. It's a soft skill. You are absolutely right. And being able to understand the business strategy for the company, and then aligning your data strategy to the business strategy is important, right? But the underlying technical pieces need to be solid. So for example, how do you deal with large volumes of different types of data spread across a company? How do you manage that data? How do you understand the data? How do you govern that data? How do you then master leveraging the value of that data in the context of your business, right? So an understanding, a deep understanding of the technology of collecting, organizing, and analyzing that data is needed for you to be a successful CDO. >> So in terms of, in terms of those skillsets that you're looking for, and one of the things that Inderpal said earlier in his keynote, is that, there are just, it's a rare individual who truly understands the idea of how to collect, store, analyze, curatize, monetize the data, and then also have the soft skills of being able to navigate the organization, being able to be a change agent who is inspiring, inspiring the rank and file. How do you recruit and retain talent? I mean, this seems to be a major challenge. >> Expertise is, and getting the right expertise in place, and Inderpal talked about it in his keynote, which was the very first thing he did was bring in talent. Sometimes it is from outside of your company. Maybe you have a kind of talent that has grown up in your company. Maybe you have to go outside, but you've got to bring in the right skills together. Form the team that understands the technology, and the business side of things, and build this team, and that is essential for you to be a successful CDO. And to some extent, that's what Inderpal has done. That's what the analytic CDO's office has done. Seth Dobrin, my boss, is the analytics CDO , and he and the analytics CDO team actually hired people with different skills. Data engineering skills, data science skills, visualization skills, and then put this team together which understands the, how to collect, govern, curate, and analyze the data, and then apply them in specific situations. >> There's been a lot of talk about AI, at this conference, which seems to be finally happening. What do you see in the field, or perhaps projects that you've worked on, of examples of AI that are really having a meaningful business impact? >> Yeah Paul, that is a very good question because, you know, the term AI is overused a lot as you can imagine, a lot of hype around it. But I think we are past that hype cycle, and people are looking at, how do I implement successful use cases? And I stress the word use case, right? In my experience these, how I'm going to transform my business in one big boil the ocean exercise, does not work. But if you have a very specific bounded use case that you can identify, the business tells you this is relevant. The business tells you what the metrics for success are. And then you focus your attention, your efforts on that specific use case with the skills needed for that use case, then it's successful. So, you know, examples of use cases from across the industries, right? I mean everything that you can think of. Customer-facing examples, like, how do I read the customer's mind? So when, if I'm a business and I interact with my customers, can I anticipate what the customer is looking for, maybe for a cross-sell opportunity, or maybe to reduce the call handing time when a customer calls into my call center. Or trying to segment my customers so I can do a proper promotion, or a campaign for that customer. All of these are specific customer phasing examples. There also are examples of applying this internally to improve precesses, capacity planning for your infrastructure, can I predict when a system is likely to have an outage, or can I predict the traffic coming into my systems, into my infrastructure and provision capacity for that on demand, So all of these are interesting applications of AI in the enterprise. >> So when your trying, what are the things we keep hearing, is that we need to data to tell a story To, the data needs to be compelling enough so that the people, the data scientist get it but then also the other kinds of business decision makers get it to. >> Yep >> So, what are sort of, the best practices that have emerged from your experience? In terms of, being able to, for your data to tell a story that you want it to tell. >> Yeah, well I mean if the pattern doesn't exist in the data then no amount of fancy algorithms can help, you know? and sometimes its like searching for a needle in a haystack but assuming, I guess the first step is, like I said, What is the use case? Once you have a clear understanding of your use case and such metrics for your use case, do you have the data to support that use case? So for example if it's fraud detection, do you actually have the historical data to support the fraud use case? Sometimes you may have transactional data from your, transocular from your core enterprise systems but that may not be enough. You may need to alt mend it with external data, third party data, maybe unstructured data, that goes along with your transaction data. So the question is, can you identify the data that is needed to support the use case and if so can I, is that data clean, is that data, do you understand the lineage of the data, who has touched and modified the data, who owns the data. So then I can start building predictive models and machine learning, deep learning models with that data. So use case, do you have the data to support the use case? Do you understand how that sata reached you? Then comes the process of applying machine learning algorithms and deep learning algorithms against that data. >> What are the risks of machine learning and particularly deep learning, I think because it becomes kind of a black box and people can fall into the trap of just believing what comes back, regardless of whether the algorithms are really sound or the data is. What is the responsibility of data scientist to sort of show their work? >> Yeah, Paul this is fascinating and not completely solid area, right? So, bias detection, can I explain how my model behaved, can I ensure that the models are fair in their predictions. So there is a lot of research, a lot of innovation happening in the space. IBM is investing a lot into space. We call trust and transparency, being able to explain a model, it's got multiple levels to it. You need some level of AI governments itself, just like we talked about data governments that is the notion of AI governments. Which is what motion of the model was used to make a prediction? What were the imports that went into that model? What were the decisions that were, that were the features that were used to make a sudden prediction? What was the prediction? And how did that match up with ground truth. You need to be able to capture all that information but beyond that, we have got actual mechanisms in place that IBM Research is developing to look at bias detection. So pre processing during execution post processing, can I look for bias in how my models behave and do I have mechanisms to mitigate that? So one example is the open source Python library, called AIF360 that comes from IBM Research and has contributed to the open source community. You can look at, there are mechanisms to look at bias and provide some level of bias mitigation as part of your model building exercises. >> And the bias mitigation, does it have to do with, and I'm going to use an IMB term of art here, the human in the loop, is it how much are you actually looking at the humans that are part of this process >> Yeah, humans are at least at this point in time, humans are very much in the loop. This notion of Peoria high where humans are completely outside the loop is, we're not there yet so very much something that the system can for awhile set off recommendations, can provide a set of explanations and can someone who understands the business look at it and make a corrective, take corrective actions. >> There has been, however to Rebecca's point, some prominent people including Bill Gates, who have speculated that the AI could ultimately be a negative for humans. What is the responsibility of company's like IBM to ensure that humans are kept in the loop? >> I think at least at this point IBM's view is humans are an essential part of AI. In fact, we don't even use artificial intelligence that much we call it augmented intelligence. Where the system is pro sending a set of recommendations, expert advise to the human who can then make a decision. For example, you know my team worked with a prominent health care provider on you know, models for predicting patient death in the case of sepsis, sepsis-onset. This is, we are talking literally life and death decisions being made and this is not something you can just automate and throw into a magic black box, and have a decision be made. So this is absolutely a place where people with deep, domain knowledge are supported, are opt mended with, with AI to make better decisions, that's where I think we are today. As to what will happen five years from now, I can't predict that yet. >> Well I actually want to- >> But the question >> bring this up to both of you, the role, so you are helping doctor's make these decisions, not just this is what the computer program says about this patient's symptoms here but this is really, so you are helping the doctor make better decisions. What about the doctors gut, in the, his or her intuition to. I mean, what is the role of that, in the future? >> I think it goes away, I mean I think, the intuition really will be trumped by data in the long term because you can't argue with the facts. Some people do these days. (soft laughter) But I don't remember (everyone laughing) >> We have take break there for some laughter >> Intrested in your perspective onthat is there, will there, should there always be a human on the front line, who is being supported by the back end or would you see a scenario were an AI is making decisions, customer facing decisions that are, really are life and death decisions? >> So I think in the consumer invest way, I can definitely see AI making decisions on it's own. So you know if lets say a recommender system would say as you know I think, you know John Thomas, bought these last five things online. He's likely to buy this other thing, let's make an offer to him. You know, I don't need another human in the loop for that >> No harm right? >> Right. >> It's pretty straight forward, it's already happening, in a big way but when it comes to some of these >> Prepoping a mortgage, how about that one? >> Yeah >> Where bias creeps in a lot. >> But that's one big decision. >> Even that I think can be automated, can be automated if the threshold is set to be what the business is comfortable with, were it says okay, above this probity level, I don't really need a human to look at this. But, and if it is below this level, I do want someone to look at this. That's you know, that is relatively straight forward, right? But if it is a decision about you know life or death situation or something that effects the very fabric of the business that you are in, then you probably want a domain explore to look at it. In most enterprises, enterprises cases will fall, lean toward that category. >> These are big questions. These are hard questions. >> These are hard questions, yes. >> Well John, thank you so much for doing >> Oh absolutely, thank you >> On theCUBE, we really had a great time with you. >> No thank you for having me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Paul Gillan, we will have more from theCUBE's live coverage of IBM CDO, here in Boston, just after this. (Upbeat Music)

>> Live from Boston, it's theCUBE covering IBM Chief Data Officer Summit. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome back, everyone. We are wrapping up a day of coverage, live coverage from theCUBE at the IBM CDO Summit on a very blustery cold day here in Boston, Massachusets. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight. I've been all day with Paul Gillan, my co-host. It's been a lot of fun co-hosting with you. >> It's been a pleasure. It's been a great day. >> Yeah. >> Great guests all day. >> Absolutely, high quality. This is not your father's IBM, not your mother's IBM, this is a very different company from when you started covering IBM way back when and to-- >> 1982. >> 82, so talk about a little bit about the changes. You grew up in an IBM town. >> I grew up in an IBM town. I grew up in an IBM world where everyone dressed the same, everyone had a set of talking points, it was a very closed, dark organization, dense organization, very little information got out. Of course the company at that time was operating under a consent to prove the justice department. Been attempting to be broken up. So they were understandably nervous. We began to see that change after IBM's crisis in the late 80s and began to open up the, began to celebrate individuals where previously individualism had been discouraged at IBM. And what you see at this conference here, I don't know, I'm always amazed when I go to IBM conferences at the differences I see between the people I meet at the conferences and sort of the corporate image that is represented which is of a company that is struggling to make some transitions. I see just lots of vibrant, intelligent, enthusiastic, forward-looking people. Very, very smart people at these conferences. I don't think that gets out enough to the IBM watchers out there. >> I would agree and what we're hearing too, about from the employees themselves talking about the soft skills that are needed to succeed here at IBM but also in all sorts of industries. I mean, our first guest, Inderpal was talking about, you asked him, "What do you need to succeed as a CDO?" Well, what are sort of the traits and ability-- >> He didn't talk about technology. >> And so it wasn't really on his list. >> He didn't talk about numbers or technology at all. He talked about managing relationships, about motivating organizations-- >> Inspiring people exactly. Exactly, so having those kinds of soft skills so necessary for success in the data world but also here at IBM. And then we've also had a lot of other people on talking about IBM as this very inclusive place where you bring your authentic self to work. I write for Harvard business reviews so these are really buzzy words right now. But really, so I don't know if a lot of employees would say that about their employer. >> And when you talk to IBMers, you hear very enthusiastic people, people who love the company, who love working here. With all the diversity, the way the company's been out front in promoting minorities, in promoting women, in all kinds of ways that it really was ahead of the game in the way he treated his workforce. You know, looking at the content of the conference, a couple things really stood out for me. I've been following this area for about five years now working at the MIT CDO event, on theCUBE for a number of years and really five years ago the CDO concept, we were asking questions like, does this job have a future, what does this job look like, what are the skills that are needed, where does it fit in the organization, is this a replacement for the CIO and conflict with the CIO, what's the responsibility, what is the job, we were asking. Really three or four years ago not hearing any of that anymore. There is a lot of unanimity of opinion. This position is important, it's critical. 90 percent of large organizations will have a CDO within the next couple of years, and the role appears to be well defined and is becoming more strategic and the issues of conflict with the CIO are largely being resolved. This is a main stream corporate C level position now, and it's amazing how quickly that's happened. Really over the last four years. >> Well and Andrew Paul said when he first started out, he was a CDO in 2006. He said, when I started out data was considered exhaust, so pollution and now we really know that it is a valuable asset. >> Now it's oil. >> Exactly, now it's gold and oil, and all the other. Yeah, no what about sort of this evolution from big data, big data was the buzz word a few years ago, now it's really all about AI. >> It is, and I've been an AI skeptic for a long time just because I've heard the term AI used for many years and when we didn't have it, when it didn't exist, I am now a believer. I believe that these systems that are being built are really exhibit signs of intelligence and we are going to much quicker in the future as Cloud comes into play, as software becomes more of an assembly process. We just had the discussion of the IBM risk analysis, supply chain risk analysis application. That was essentially assembled. It wasn't really written, it was assembled from components and it's a fantastic idea. We are going to see more of these powerful applications coming about and being built by people who are not extremely technical. So I think, I was amazed to see how the evolution of this program has gone from big data to AI. Today was all about AI and they're not talkin' trash anymore this stuff is really going to work. >> Are we cautious enough, would you think, as I mean, when you're thinking about all the industries here who are now playing in AI, sometimes scampering up the AI ladder a little too quickly because they want the shiny toys, when they really need to actually dig in deep with their data. But do you, as an analyst, where do you put-- >> Well, are we ever cautious enough with new technology? I mean look what Facebook is going through right now. We always go overboard and then we have to pull back and gaze at our navel and figure out, you know, how do we do this right. I'm sure there are a lot of mistakes being made with AI right now. Fortunately, I don't think the mistakes are being made in areas where it's going to meaningfully impact people's quality of life. It's not going to, we're not going to have medical, we had some people from the healthcare field on today. It was very clear that they take AI seriously, the role of AI seriously. I think we'll see a lot of stupid applications of AI, but that's always the way new technology is, right? So you have to experiment, you have to make some mistakes before you figure out what really works and I think we're just going through a natural cycle here. What's exciting is that these applications are the most transformational I've ever seen. >> Wow, and this is from someone who's been covering this industry for many decades. >> It's hard to maintain that wild-eyed enthusiasm after all these years, but it really is, boy, I wish I was 20 years younger, because this is going to be fun to stick around and watch how this develops. How about you? >> We got to raise our kids to grow up and be data scientists. >> I have every intention of doing that. (laughing) How about you? You were more focused on the workforce and the people side of the equation. We heard a lot about that today. >> Exactly, I mean, because frankly, what is all of this stuff doing, but making our work lives more easier, more satisfying, more interesting, less tedious, less boring, less onerous. So I think, frankly, when you put it all in terms of that is our goal is to help people do their jobs better and sometimes people's jobs are saving lives, sometimes people's jobs are, you know, helping people win at Publisher's Clearinghouse Sweepstakes. But that's what it really comes down to, so if it really is helping people do these things, I mean, it is as you said, very exciting. It's an exciting time to be looking at all of this stuff. >> And a time when I think people like you and me will increasingly be able to build these kinds of applications, because the tools are getting that easy to use. >> I hope so. I'm not that good. >> Well, maybe not you. (laughing) >> You can. My kids, definitely. Well, Paul it's been a real pleasure hosting, co-hosting this show with you. >> You too, it's been great. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Paul Gillan. This has been theCUBE's live coverage of IBM CDO Summit, we will see you next time. (upbeat music)

live from Boston it's the cube covering IBM chief data officer summit brought to you by IBM welcome back everyone to the cubes live coverage of the IBM CDO summit here in Boston Massachusetts I'm your host Rebecca Knight and I'm joined by co-host Paul Gillan we have a guest today John Thomas he is the distinguished engineer and director at IBM thank you so much for coming returning to the cube you're a cube veteran so tell our viewers a little bit about your distinguished engineer there are only 672 in all of IBM what do you do what is your role that's a good question distinguished engineer is kind of a technical execute a role which is a combination of applying the technology skills as well as helping shape by the inscriber gene in a technical way working with clients etcetera right so it is it is a bit of a jack-of-all-trades but also deep skills in some specific areas and I love what I do so you get to work with some very talented people brilliant people in terms of shaping IBM technology and strategy products for energy that is part of it we also work very closely with clients in terms of how do you apply that technology in the context of the clients use cases we've heard a lot today about soft skills the importance of organizational people skills to being a successful chief data officer but there's still a technical component how important is the technical side what is what are the technical skills that the cdos need oh this is a very good question Paul so absolutely so navigating the organizational structure is important it's a soft skill you're absolutely right and being able to understand the business strategy for the company and then aligning your data strategy to the business strategy is important right but the underlying technical pieces need to be solid so for example how do you deal with large volumes of different types of data spread across the company how do you manage the data how do you understand the data how do you govern that data how do you then mast are leveraging the value of the data in the context of your business right so and understand deep understanding of the technology of collecting organizing and analyzing that data is needed for you to be a success for CBL so in terms of in terms of those skill sets that you're looking for and one of the things that Interpol said earlier in his keynote is that they're just it's a rare individual who truly understands the idea of how to collect store analyze curate eyes monetize the data and then also has the the soft skills of being able to navigate the organization being able to be a change agent is inspiring yeah inspiring the rank-and-file yeah how do you recruit and retain talent it seems to be a major tech expertise is not getting the right expertise in place and Interpol talked about it in his keynote which was the very first thing he did was bring in Terrence sometimes it is from outside of your company maybe you have a kind of talent that has grown up in your company maybe you have to go outside buddy God bring in the right skills together form the team that understands the technology and the business side of things and build esteem and that is essential for you to be a successful CTO and to some extent that's what Interpol has done that's what the analytic CEOs office has done a set up in my boss is the analytics EDF and he and the analytic CDO team actually engineering skills data science skills visualization skills and then put this team together which understands the how to collect govern curate and analyze the data and then apply them in specific situations a lot of talk about AI at this conference what seems to be finally happening what do you see in the field or perhaps projects that you've worked on examples of AI that are really having a meaningful business impact yeah Paul it's a very good question because you know the term AI is overused a lot as you can imagine a lot of hype around it but I think we are past that hype cycle and people are looking at how do i implement successful use cases and I stressed the word use case right in my experience these how I'm going to transform my business in one big boil the ocean exercise does not work but if you have a very specific bounded use case that you can identify the business tells you this is relevant the business tells you what the metrics for success are and then you focus your your attention your your efforts on that specific use case with the skills need for that use case then it's successful so you know examples of use cases from across the industries right I mean everything that you can think of customer-facing examples like how do I read the customers mind so when when if I'm a business and I interact with my customers can I anticipate what the customer is looking for maybe for a cross-sell opportunity or maybe to reduce the call handling time and a customer calls in to my call center or trying to segment my customer so I can do a proper promotion or a campaign for that customer all of these are specific customer facing examples there are also examples of applying this internally to improve processes capacity planning for your infrastructure can I predict when a system is likely to have an outage and or can I predict the traffic coming into my systems into my infrastructure and provision capacity that on-demand so all these are interesting applications of AI in the enterprise so when you're trying I mean one of the things we keep hearing is that we need data to tell a story the data needs to the data needs to be compelling enough so that the people the data scientists get it but then also that the other kinds of business decision makers get it - so what are sort of the best practices that have emerged from your experience in terms of being able to for your data to tell the story that you wanted to tell yeah well I mean if the pattern doesn't exist in the data then no amount of fancy algorithms can help you know so and sometimes it's like searching for a needle in a haystack but assuming I guess the first step is like I said what is the a use case once you have a clear understanding of your use case and success metrics for the use case do you have the data to support that use case so for example if it's fraud detection do you actually have the historical data to support the fraud use case sometimes you may have transactional data from your your transaction data from your current or PI systems but that may not be enough you may need to augment it with external data third party data may be unstructured data that goes along with the transaction data so question is can you identify the data that is needed to support the use case and if so can I do is that data clean is that is that data do you understand the lineage of the data who has touched and modified the data who owns the data so that I can then start building predictive models and machine learning be planning models with that data so use case do you have the data to support the use case do you understand how the data reached you then comes the process of applying machine learning algorithms and deep learning algorithms against that data one of the risks of machine learning and particularly deep learning I think is it becomes kind of a black box and people can fall into the trap of just believing what comes back regardless of whether the algorithms are really sound or the data is somewhat what is the responsibility of data scientists to sort of show their work yeah Paul this is a fascinating and not completely solved area right so bias detection can I explain how my model behaved can I ensure that the models are fair in their predictions so there's a lot of research lot of innovation happening in the space iBM is investing a lot in the space we call trust and transparency being able to explain a model it's got multiple levels to it you need some level of AI governments itself so just like we talked about data governance there is the notion of AI governance which is what version of the model was used to make a prediction what were the inputs that went into that model what were the decisions that are that what were the features that were used to make a certain prediction what was the prediction and how did that match up with ground truth you need to be able to capture all that information but beyond that we have got actual mechanisms in place that IBM Research is developing to look at bias detection so pre-processing during execution post-processing can I look for bias in how my models behave and do I have mechanisms to mitigate that so one example is the open source Python library called AI F 360 that comes from IBM's research on its contributor to the open source community you can look at there are mechanisms to look at bias and and and provide some level of bias mitigation as part of your model building exercises and is the bias mitigation does it have to do with and I'm gonna use an IBM term of art here at the human in the loop I mean is how much are you actually looking at the humans that are part of this process humans are at least at this point in time humans are very much in the loop this this notion of P or AI where humans are completely outside the loop is we're not there yet so very much something that the system can it provide a set of recommendations can it provide a set of explanations in can someone who understands the business look at it and make corrective take corrective action as needed there has been however to Rebecca's point some prominent people including Bill Gates who have have speculated that AI could ultimately be a negative for humans are what is the responsibility of companies like IBM to ensure that humans are kept in the loop I think at least at this point IBM's V was humans are an essential part of AI in fact we don't even use the term artificial intelligence that much we call it augmented intelligence where the system is presenting a set of recommendations expert advice to the human who can then make a decision so for example you know my team worked with a prominent healthcare provider on you know models for predicting patient death death in in the case of sepsis sepsis onset this is we're talking literally life and death decisions being made and this is not something that you can just automate and throw it into a magic black box and have a decision be made right so this is absolutely a place where people with deep domain knowledge are supported are augmented with with AI to make better decisions that's where that's where I think we are today as to what will happen five years from now I can't predict that yet the role so you are helping doctors make these decisions not just this is what the computer program says about this patients symptoms here but this is really you're helping the doctor make better decisions what about the doctors gut and the ease into his or her intuition too I mean what is what is the role of that in the future I think it goes away I mean I think the intuition really will be trumped by data in the long term because you can't argue with the facts much as some some people do these days the perspective on that is there will there all should there always be a human on the front lines who is being supported by the backend or would would you see a scenario where an AI is making decisions customer-facing decisions that are really are life and death so I think in the consumer industry I can definitely see AI making decisions on its own right so you know if let's say a recommender system which says you know I think you know John Thomas bought these last five things online he's likely to buy this other thing let's make an offer team you know I don't even in the loop for no harm it's it's it's it's pretty straightforward it's already happening in a big way but when it comes to some of these mortgage yeah about that one even that I think can be can be automated can be automated if the thresholds are said to be what the business is comfortable with where it says okay about this probability level I don't really need a human to look at this but and if it is below this level I do want someone to look at this that's you know that is relatively straightforward right but if it is a decision about you know life-or-death situations or something that affects the the very fabric of the business that you are in then you probably want to domain expert to look at it and most enterprises enterprise use cases will for lean towards that category these are big questions they're hard questions are questions yes well John thank you so much oh absolutely thank you we've really had a great time with you yeah thank you for having me I'm Rebecca night for Paul Gillen we will have more from the cubes live coverage of IBM CDO here in Boston just after this

(upbeat techno music) >> Live, from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE covering VMworld 2018, brought to you by VMware and it's ecosystem partners. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we're here live in Las Vegas for VMworld 2018 coverage. It's the final analysis, the final interview of three days, 94 interviews, two CUBE sets, amazing production, our ninth year covering VMworld. We've seen the evolution, we've seen the trials and tribulations of VMware and it's ecosystem and as it moves into the modern era, the dynamics are changing. We heard quotes like, "From playing tennis "to playing soccer," it's a lot of complicated things, the cloud certainly a big part of it. I'm John Furrier your host, Stu Miniman couldn't be here for the wrap, he had an appointment. I'm here with Dave Vallente and Jim Kobielus who's with Wikibon and SiliconANGLE and theCUBE team. >> Guys, great job, I want to say thanks to you guys and thanks to the crew on both sets. Amazing production, we're just going to have some fun here. We've analyzed this event, ten different ways from Sunday. >> So many people working so hard for such a steady clip as we have here the last three days, amazing. >> Just to give some perspective, I want to get, just lay out kind of what's going on with theCUBE. I've get a lot of people come up and ask me hey what's going on, you guys are amazing. It's gotten so much bigger, there's two sets. But every year, Dave, we always try to at VMworld, make VMworld our show to up our value. We always love to innovate, but we got a business to run. We have no outside finance, we have a great set of partners. I'm proud of the team, what Jeff Frick did and the team has done amazing work. Sonia's here's, the whole analyst team's here, our whole team's here. But we have an orchestrated system now, we have the blogging at SilconANGLE.com and Rob Hof leading the editorial. Working on a content immersion program. Jim you were involved in with Rob and Peter in the team, bringing content on the written word side, as fast as possible, the best quality, fast as possible, the analysts getting the pre-briefing and the NDAs, theCUBE team setting it up. Pretty unique formula at full stride right now, only going to get better. New photography, better pictures, better video, better guests, more content. Now with the video clipper tool and our video cloud service and we did a tech preview of our block chain, token economics, a lot of the insiders of VMworld, the senior executives and the community, all with great results, they all loved it, they want to do more. Opening up our platform, opening up the content's been a big success, I want to thank you guys for that. >> And I agree, I should point out that one of the things we have that say an agency doesn't offer, I used to be with a large multi national solutions provider doing kind of similar work but in a thought leadership market kind of, let me just state something here, what we've got is unique because we have analysts, market researchers, who know this stuff at the core of our business model, including, especially the content immersion program. Peter Boroughs did a bit, I did a fair amount on this one. You need subject matter experts to curate and really define the themes that the entire editorial team, and I'm including theCUBE people on the editorial team, are basically, so we're all aligned around we know what the industry is all about, the context, the vendor, and somebody's just curating making sure that the subject matter is on target was what the community wants to see. >> So I got to day, first of all, VMware set us up with two stages here, two sets, amazing. They've been unbelievable partners. They really put their money with their mouth is. They allow us to bring in the ecosystem, do our own thing, so that's phenomenal and our goal is to give back to the community. We had two sets, 94 guests this week, 70 interview segments, hundreds and hundreds of assets coming out, all free. >> It was amazing. >> SiliconANGLE.com, Wikibon.com, theCUBE.net, all free content was really incredible. >> It's good free content. >> It's great free content. >> We dropped a true private cloud report with market shares, that's all open and free. Floyer did a piece on VMware's hybrid cloud strategy, near to momentum, ice bergs ahead. Jim Kobelius, first of all, every day here you laid out here's what happened today with your analysis plus you had previews plus you have a trip report coming. >> Plus I had a Wikibon research note that had been in the pipeline for about a month and I held off on publishing until Monday at the show, the AI ready IT infrastructure because it's so aligned with what's going on. >> And then Paul Gillan and Rob Hof did a series in their team on the future of the data center. Paul Gillan, the walls are tumbling down, I mean that thing got amazing play, check that out. It's just a lot of detail in there. >> And more importantly, that's our content. We're linking, we're open, we're linking to other people's content, from Tech Field Day what Foskett's doing to vBrownBag to linking to stories, sharing, quoting other analysts, Patrick Moorehead for more insights. Anyone who has content that we can get it in fast, in real time, out to the marketplace, is our mission and we love doing it so I think the formula of open is working. >> Yeah Charles King, this morning I saw Charles, I thanked him for, he had great quotes. >> Yeah, great guy. >> He's like, "I love with Paul Gillan calls me." John, talk about the tech preview because the tech preview was an open community project that's all about bringing the community together, helping them and helping get content out into the marketplace. >> Well our goal for this event was to use the VMworld to preview some of our innovations and you're going to start to hear more from the siliconANGLE media, CUBE and siliconANGLE team around concepts like the CUBE cloud. We have technology we're going to start to surface and bring out to the marketplace and we want to make it free and open and allow people to use and share in what we do and make theCUBE a community brand and a community concept and continue this mission and treat theCUBE like an upstream project. Let's all co-create together because the downstream benefits in communities are significantly better when there's co-creation and self governance. Highest quality content, from highly reputable people, whether it's news, analysis, opinion, commentary, pontification, we love it all, let the content stand on it's own and let's the benefits come down so if you're a sponsor, if you're a thought leader, you're a news maker, you're an analyst, we love to do that and we love talking with the executives so that's great. The tech preview is about showcasing how we want to create a new network. As communities are growing and changing, VMware's community is robust, Dave, it's it's own subnet, but as the world grows in those multiple clouds, Azure has a community, Google has a community, and people have been trained to sit in these silos, okay? >> Mm-hmm. >> We go to so many events and we engage with so many communities, we want to connect them all through the CUBE coin concept of block chain where if someone's in a community, they can download the wallet and join theCUBE network. Today there's no mechanism to join theCUBE network. You can go to theCUBE.net and subscribe, you can go to YouTube and subscribe, you can get e-mail marketing but that's not acceptable to us we want a subscribe button that's going to add value to people who contribute value, they can capture it. That was the tech preview, it's a block chain based community. We're calling it the Open Community Project. >> Wow. >> Open Community Project is the first upstream content software model that's free to use, where if the community uses it, they can capture value that they create. It's a new concept and it's radical and revolutionary. >> In some ways were analogous to what VMware has evolved into where they bridge clouds and they say that, "We bridge clouds." We bridge communities all around thought leadership and to provide a forum for conversations that bridge the various siloed communities. >> Well Jim you and I talked about this, we've seen the movie and media. In the old school media days and search engine marketing and e-mail marketing and starting a blog, which we were part of, the blogging was the first generation of sharing economy where you linked to other bloggers and shared your traffic, because you were working together against the mainstream media. >> It's my major keyboard, by the way, I love blogs. >> And if you were funded you had to build an audience. Audience development, audience development. Not anymore, the audience is already there. They are now in networks so the new ethos, like blogging, is joining networks and not making it an ownership, lock in walled garden. So the new ethos is not link sharing, community sharing, co-creation and merging networks. This is something that we're seeing across all event communities and content is the nutrients and the glue for those communities. >> You got multi cloud, you got multi content networks. Making it together, it's exciting. I mean there were some people that I saw this week, I mean Alan Cohen as a guest host, amazingly articulate, super smart guy, plugged in to Silicon Valley. Christophe Bertrand, analyst at ESG, a great analysis today on theCUBE, bringing those guys, nominate them into the community for the Open Community Project. >> You know what I like, Dave, was also Jeff Frick, Sonia and Gabe were all at the front there, greeting the guests. We had great speakers, it all worked. The stages worked but it's for the community, by the community, this is the model, right? This is what we want to do and it was a lot of fun, I had a lot of great interviews from Andy Bechtolsheim, Michael Dell, Pat Gellsinger to practitioners and to the vendors and suppliers all co-creating here in real time, it was really a lot of fun. >> Oh yes, amen. >> Well Dave, thanks for everything. Thanks for the crew, great job everybody. >> Awesome. >> Jim, well done. >> Thanks to Stu Miniman, Peter Burris and all the guests, Justin Warren, John Troyer, guest host Alan Cohen, great community participation. This is theCUBE signing off from Las Vegas, this is VMworld 2018 final analysis, thanks for watching. (upbeat techno music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering Dell EMC World 2017, brought to you by Dell EMC. >> Okay, welcome back everyone, we are live in Las Vegas for Dell EMC World 2017. This is theCUBE's eighth year of coverage of what was once EMC World, now it's Dell EMC World 2017. I'm John Furrier at SiliconANGLE, and also my cohost from SiliconANGLE, Paul Gillin. Our next guest is Vikram Bhambri, who is the Vice President of Product Management at Dell EMC. Formally with Microsoft Azure, knows cloud, knows VIPRE, knows the management, knows storage up and down, the Emerging Technologies Group, formerly of EMC. Good to see you on theCUBE again. >> Good to see you guys again. >> Okay, so Elastic Compute, this is going to be the game changer. We're so excited about one of our favorite interviews was your colleague we had on earlier. Unstructured data, object store, is becoming super valuable. And it was once the throwaway, "Yeah, store, later late ". Now with absent data driven enterprises having access to data is the value proposition that they're all driving towards. >> Absolutely. >> Where are you guys with making that happen and bringing that data to life? >> So, when I think about object storage in general, people talk about it's the S3 protocol, or it's the object protocol versus the file protocol. I think the conversation is not about that. The conversation is about data of the universe is increasing and it's increasing tremendously. We're talking about 44 zettabytes of data by 2020. You need an easier way to consume, store, that data in a meaningful way, and not only just that but being able to derive meaningful insights out of that either when the data is coming in or when the data is stored on a periodic basis being able to drive value. So having access to the data at any point of time, anywhere, is the most important aspect of it. And with ECS we've been able to actually attack the market from both sides. Whether it's talking about moving data from higher cost storage arrays or higher performance tiers down to a more accessible, more cheap storage that is available geographically, that's one market. And then also you have tons of data that's available on the tape drive but that data is so difficult to access, so not available. And if you want to go put that tape back on a actual active system the turnaround time is so long. So being able to turn all of that storage into an active storage system that's accessible all the time is the real value proposition that we have to talk about. >> Well now help me understand this because we have all these different ways to make sense of unstructured data now. We have NoSQL databases, we have JSON, we have HDFS, and we've got object storage. Where does it fit into the hierarchy of making sense of unstructured data? >> The simplest way to think about it is we talk about a data ocean, with the amount of data that's growing. Having the capability to store data that is in a global content repository. That is accessible-- >> Meaning one massive repository. >> One massive repository. And not necessarily in one data center, right? It's spread across multiple data centers, it's accessible, available with a single, global namespace, regardless of whether you're trying to access data from location A or location B. But having that data be available through a single global namespace is the key value proposition that object storage brings to bear. The other part is the economics that we're able to provide consistently better than what the public clouds are able to offer. You're talking about anywhere between 30 to 48% cheaper TCO than what public clouds are able to offer, in your own data center with all the constraints that you want to like upload to it, whether it's regular environments. Whether you're talking about country specific clouds and such, that's where it fits well together. But, exposing that same data out whether through HDFS or a file is where ECS differentiated itself from other cloud platforms. Yes, you can go to a Hadoop cluster and do a separate data processing but then you're creating more copies of the same data that you have in your primary storage. So things like that essentially help position object as the global content repository where you can just dump and forget about, about the storage needs. >> Vikram I want to ask you about the elastic cloud storage, as you mentioned, ECS, it's been around for a couple of years. You just announced a ECS lesser cloud storage, dedicated cloud. Can you tell me what that is and more about that because some people think of elastic they think Amazon, "I'll just throw it in object storage in the cloud." What are you guys doing specifically 'cause you have this hybrid offering. >> Absolutely. >> What is this about, can you explain that? >> Yeah, so if you look at, there are two extremes, or two paradigms that people are attracted by. On one side you have public clouds which give you the ease of use, you just swipe your credit card and you're in business. You don't have to worry about the infrastructure, you don't have to worry about, like, "Where my data is going to be stored?" It's just there. And then on the other side you have regular environments or you just have environments where you cannot move to public clouds so customers end up put in ECS, or other object storage for that matter, though ECS is the best. >> John: Biased, but that's okay. >> Yeah, now we are starting to see customers they're saying, "Can I have the best of both worlds? "Can I have a situation where I like the ease of use "of the public cloud but I don't want to "be in a shared bathtub environment. "I don't want to be in a public cloud environment. "I like the privacy that you are able to provide me "with this ECS in my own data center "but I don't want to take on the infrastructure management." So for those customers we have launched ECS dedicated cloud service. And this is specifically targeted for scenarios where customers have maybe one data center, two data centers, but they want to use the full strength and the capabilities of ECS. So what we're telling them we will actually put their bought ECS in our data centers, ECS team will operate and manage that environment for the customer but they're the only dedicated customer on that cloud. So that means they have their own environment-- >> It's completely secure for their data. >> Vikram: Exactly. >> No multi tenant issues at all. >> No, and you can have either partial capabilities in our data center, or you can fully host in our data center. So you can do various permutation and combinations thus giving customers a lot of flexibility of starting with one point and moving to the other. Let's them start with a private cloud, they want to move to a hybrid version they can move that, or if they start from the hybrid and they want to go back to their own data centers they can do that as well. >> Let's change gears and talk about IoT. You guys had launched Project Nautilus, we also heard that from your boss earlier, two days ago. What is that about? Explain, specifically, what is Project Nautilus? >> So as I was mentioning earlier there is a whole universe of data that is now being generated by these IoT devices. Whether you're talking about connected cars, you're talking about wind sensors, you're talking about anything that collects a piece of data that needs to be not only stored but people want to do realtime analysis on that dataset. And today people end up using a combination of 10 different things. They're using Kafka, Speak, HDFS, Cassandra, DASH storage to build together a makeshift solution, that sort of works but doesn't really. Or you end up, like, if you're in the public cloud you'll end up using some implementation of Lambda Architecture. But the challenge there is you're storing same amount of data in a few different places, and not only that there is no consistent way of managing data, processing data that effectively. So what Project Nautilus is our attempt to essentially streamline all of that. Allow stream of data that's coming from these IoT devices to be processed realtime, or for batch, in the same solution. And then once you've done that processing you essentially push that data down to a tier, whether it's Isilon or ECS, depending on the use case that you are trying to do. So it simplifies the whole story on realtime analytics and you don't want to do it in a closed source way. What we've done is we've created this new paradigm, or new primitive called streaming storage, and we are open sourcing it, we are Project Pravega, which is in the Apache Foundation. We want the whole community, just like there is a common sense of awareness for object file we want to that same thing for streaming storage-- >> So you guys are active in open source. Explain quickly, many might not know that. Talk about that. >> So, yeah, as I mentioned Project Prevega is something we announced at Flink Forward Conference. It's a streaming storage layer which is completely open source in the Apache Foundation and we just open sourced it today. And giving customers the capability to contribute code to it, take their version, or they can do whatever they want to do, like build additional innovation on top. And the goal is to make streaming storage just like a common paradigm like everything else. And in addition we're partnering with another open source component. There is a company called data Artisans based out of Berlin, Germany, and they have a project called Flink, and we're working with them pretty closely to bring Nautilus to fruition. >> theCUBE was there by the way, we covered Flink Forward again, one of the-- >> Paul: True streaming engine. >> Very good, very big open source project. >> Yeah, we we're talking with Jeff Woodrow earlier about software defined storage, self driving storage as he calls it. >> Where does ECS fit in the self driving storage? Is this an important part of what you're doing right now or is it a different use? >> Yeah, our vision right from the beginning itself was when we built this next generation of object storage system it has to be software first. Not only software first where a customer can choose their commodity hardware to bring to bear or we an supply the commodity hardware but over time build intelligence in that layer of software so that you can pull data off smartly to other, from SSDs to more SATA based drives. Or you can bring in smarts around metadata search capabilities that we've introduced recently. Because you have now billions of billions of records that are being stored on ECS. You want ease of search of what specifically you're looking for, so we introduced metadata search capability. So making the storage system and all of the data services that were usually outside of the platform, making them be part of the code platform itself. >> Are you working with Elasticsearch? >> Yes, we are using Elasticsearch more to enable customers who want to get insights about ECS itself. And Nautilus, of course, is also going to integrate with Elasticsearch as well. >> Vikram let's wrap this up. Thank you for coming on theCUBE. Bottom line, what's the bottom line message, quickly, summarize the value proposition, why customers should be using ECS, what's the big aha moment, what's the proposition? >> I would say the value proposition is very simple. Sometimes it can be like, people talk about lots of complex terms, it's very simple. Sustainably, low cost storage, for storing a wide variety of content in a global content repository is the key value proposition. >> And used for application developers to tap into? The whole dev ops, data as code, infrastructure as code movement. >> Yeah, you start, what we have seen in the majority of the used cases customers start with one used case of archiving. And then they very quickly realize that there's, it's like a Swiss Army knife. You start with archiving then you move on to application development, more modern applications, or in the cloud native applications development. And now with IoT and Nautilus being able to leverage data from these IoT devices onto these-- >> As I said two days ago, I think this is a huge, important area for agile developers. Having access to data in less than a hundred milliseconds, from any place in the world, is going to be table steaks. >> ECS has to be, or in general, object storage, has to be part of every important conversation that is happening about digital IT transformation. >> It sounds like eventually most of the data's going to end up there. >> Absolutely. >> Okay, so I'll put ya on the spot. When are we going to be seeing data in less than a hundred milliseconds from any database anywhere in the fabric of a company for a developer to call a data ocean and give me data back from any database, from any transaction in less than a hundred milliseconds? Can we do that today? >> We can do that today, it's available today. The challenge is how quickly enterprises are adopting the technology. >> John: So they got to architect it? >> Yeah. >> They have to architect it. >> Paul: If it's all of Isilon. >> They can pull it, they can cloud pull it down from Isilon to ECS. >> True. >> Yeah. >> Speed, low latency, is the key to success. Congratulations. >> Thank you so much. >> And I love this new object store, love this tier two value proposition. It's so much more compelling for developers, certainly in cloud native. >> Vikram: Absolutely. >> Vikram, here on theCUBE, bringing you more action from Las Vegas. We'll be right back as day three coverage continues here at Dell EMC World 2017. I'm John Furrier with Paul Gillan, we'll be right back.

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering Dell EMC World 2017. Brought to you by Dell EMC. >> Okay, welcome back, everyone. We are here live, this is the Cube coverage of Dell EMC World 2017. I got to get used to that, I'm used to saying EMC World, but this is Dell EMC World, the first year officially as the Dell EMC World, a continuation of our eight years of live coverage, proud coverage with the cube and I'm joined with Paul Gillan, my co-host this week for three wall-to-wall coverage days and our next guest has been on every year that Cube has been in existence, Howard Elias is the president of Dell Services and IT, a good friend of the Cube and senior executive at Dell Technologies and Dell EMC. Howard, great to see you. >> Hey, great to be back. >> You've seen every corner of EMC over the years, you have so much experience and you've been really the captain in holding the wheel on the transaction at close eight months ago, in September of the Dell Technologies, now Dell EMC company, really smooth considering what could've gone wrong, you kind of stayed away from all the icebergs, but yet it feels good. I haven't heard any real horror stories at all, I heard all positive things, the story is great, I just tweeted pretty much my take on the story. Win, consolidate to pre-existing traditional IT, and then have a growth strategy around cloud-native, convert infrastructure, good story. Okay, how is it going? >> You know what, and thank you for that. First of all, great to be with both of you and it's just going great. And I do want to make sure I co-captain the integration together with my great friend and colleague, Rory Read. But really we had the great benefit of Joe and Michael kind of setting the stage. We've talked before on the Cube about the industrial logic of the deal, but frankly, the team has come together in a phenomenal way. We are aligned, we are operating as one company. You've heard Michael and David both talk about better together today, we'll hear more about that from Jeff and Pat and others over the next couple of days. And look, for all of the things that could've gone wrong in a very large combination like this, they went right instead. And the best proof of that is our customers. Our customers are buying more from us, the conversations are richer, they are more strategic, they are more in-depth and they're rooting for us and we're rooting for them. >> Dave and I would sometimes be critical of the EMC, but you guys never really had a bad strategy, you never really stayed out, you never went outside your swim lane with respect to services and what you do. Pure storage, get the arrays, get the software to find a data-center in there, but now with the acquisition, I got to ask, the question is, the portfolio of deliverables that you guys now have and Michael kind of strutting on stage, kind of proud of his new families, he says, the brotherhood or however he puts it, you've got a lot more at your disposal, more in your bag if you will, for services. Especially VMware and NSX doing extremely well. We're going to have Pat as guest here tomorrow. Not a lot of pressure yet to have that cloud story completely baked, multi-cloud is a nice placeholder, but you have a lot more. Talk about where that new growth is coming from in the services. >> Well, specifically on cloud I would say, by the way, and we talk about this a lot, cloud is not a place of computing, it's a style of computing, it's the new way all computing is done and I would say we're a great leader in providing all of that capability in a hybrid fashion, a multi-cloud world. Look, much more on that later, but you said it, we've always believed that where we've been, technology and IT is a means to an end and we're now all about helping our customers with the broadest portfolio in the industry, across those four main transformations, digital, IT, workplace, and security. It's really the story about helping a customer become more digital, become more agile, become more flexible and really in addition to those systems of record that they've been working on for a number of years and we've been helping them, it's really those systems of engagements and the systems of insight that really give that end-to-end view in this new world. >> Howard, I want to ask you, I want to go back to the acquisition briefly because I'm a Massachusets guy as are you-- >> Yes. >> You went through, you were digital during the Compaq acquisition, Compaq or the HP acquisition, both deals that I think we could say generously did not go very well. >> Howard: Yeah. >> What did you learn from that experience that you brought to this integration? >> I'll tell you, and this is really one of the things about what went right. A lot of it is based on experience, you know, what you learn to do right is learning what not to do wrong the next time, and I was engaged in some of those, certainly didn't lead those, but I was engaged with them. But look, we had a lot of things going for us. Joe and Michael completely aligned, business colleagues, respectful friendship over a number of years. Dell and EMC had a strong partnership for a better round of a decade, so we already learned how to work well together. And in the cultures, we understood the way each-other worked. The industrial logic of the deal, the complementary technology portfolio, complementary market and customer segments, the ability to now have scale in a world where scale matters, where customers are looking to drive out cost, efficiency and agility. And look, what Rory and I did is we applied all of those lessons learned. We picked our best people, pulled them out and put them full time on the job. We had rigorous cadence, regular face-to-face meetings with Michael and Joe all the way throughout, kept everybody informed and it's just come together extremely well. >> All right, how about the services you were doing, first talk about the hard news you're announcing at the show and then specifically talk about the digital transformation. Not to put a damper on your messaging, but we're kind of bored with digital transforming, we want to get some meat on the bone. And I like the quote on stage, digital transformation is about IT transformation, I think that's where your bullseye is. So, hard news and then where's the meat on the bone with respect to the IT transformation that's part of that digital transfer? >> Well, first of all, hopefully you won't get too tired 'cause digital transformation is the mantra for a long time to come. We're in the early days, and by the way, to us, digital transformation is really business transformation. It's becoming more software-defined, it's becoming closer to your customers, it's understanding your customers' needs many times before they even know they need it and that's that whole real-time insight analytic AI, machine-learning, all of that is going to be happening. So, we're on that mission big time. And in terms of services, we've described a three-phase journey that will take a couple of years. Phase one, we talked about collaboration where the teams were coming together, learning each other, systems, processes, tools being different, so collaborate, operate as one in front of the customer. We're in phase two right now, integration. We're starting to bring, we have already brought the teams together, but for example, at this show we're announcing bringing all of our services under the marketing umbrella of pro-support and pro-deploy. There are still different systems and tools and entitlement, but we're going to start to bring together that integration where ultimately, systems processing tools come together and that gets to the third phase of unification. And so it's a journey. But throughout that journey we are protecting the value we deliver our customers. Those customers that are used to the service that they get today, the way it's delivered, the people that are delivering it, we are not changing that as we bring our customers along the journey. >> You mentioned a number of times, analytics and the importance of understanding the customer better. Dell EMC does not really have a play in that area, there is no software component that addresses that market, is that a market that you think you would like to address directly or would you do that through partners? >> We actually do that today both directly and through partners, really Pivotal being a key part of the overall Dell Technologies portfolio, we actually have a big data, digital transformation practice as part of our consulting. If you think about our consulting organization where we help in IT transformation, digital transformation, workforce transformation, we work with our customers and partners on security as well. Pivotal is the key part, but we also work with many others and in fact, one of the offerings we're announcing here at the show today is an IOT assessment service. So, something to really work again from base infrastructure because you think about edge, to core, to cloud, how to make sure you aggregate the data, do the real-time analytics as opposed to the edge, and then trend data more and the core and long-time archival in the cloud. >> At that point, I want to ask you about the cloud strategy because everyone in the press, what's your cloud strategy, what's your cloud... I think you guys have a good play. I think the cloud strategy, multi-cloud is legit and hybrid cloud is real, a 100% real. Multi-cloud is still not ready for prime time for a lot of other reasons, but you guys are doing something in the cloud, with disaster recovery and some storage stuff. Take us through the sequence, because you said, it's early innings, I would agree. What are the sequence or the order of operations in terms of the kinds of services that go to the cloud first? >> Well, in terms of what application are services? >> You guys are working with customer zone, what are the customers doing with respect to, what are they going to the cloud for, first with respect to Dell, Dell EMC? >> Again, it gets back to, cloud is not a place. We're not moving things to a cloud, we're actually, all applications, all workloads, all services and processes are becoming cloud-enabled. Whether that's helping the customer in their data center, with the private cloud, a hybrid cloud hosted by a partner or on public cloud and you said it. We actually, with our services organization, we'll actually sit down with the customer, we'll look at their entire application and workload portfolio. We run it through filters of economics, service level, security and performance and from there we build a roadmap with the customer. Which types of workloads make sense in your own private cloud, which do you want to host in a virtue-stream cloud or a partner's cloud or which do you want to do in the public cloud? How about data protection? Do you want to protect the data in the cloud, to the cloud, from the cloud? All of those are conversations we take our customers through and we have many, many, many, not just dozens now, hundreds of examples where we are working with customers on implementing their hybrid cloud strategy. >> Paul, before you go, I've got a question, but I got a question from the crowd, the crowd is watching, thank you for sending the questions on crowdchat.net/dellemcworld. Can they deliver integrated services for on Prime? Reasons people go to the cloud. So, one of the reasons is integration end-to-end. How are you guys delivering some of those integrated services on Prime? Because that's where it started. >> It is starting there and we actually do both, operational services, residency-based services, but also manage services. Again, both directly and with partners based on where we've got capabilities and skills and geography and verticals. We work with our customers to deliver again that continuum. Many customers have the skills to do it themselves, most customers do not. And they want us to augment their skills, again, whether it's operational-residency services or a full-fledged manage service for cloud. >> As the head of services, I want to ask you about the, kind of the odd timing, you came on in September, in November, Dell sold off large part of its services business, business and former Perot systems to AT&T, what was the thinking there? Should we think of that part of the services business as being completely different from that which you-- >> Extremely different. And I Know we get some questions on this, so thanks for asking, it is great to clarify it. The Dell Services Organization, the old former Perot business that Dell had acquired was really more outsourcing, IT outsourcing, some BPO, some APO. Work that we really did not want to continue doing in the new company going forward. Our services are closer to the technology, technology-enablement services, to help the adoption and consumption of our technology and we really work with a broad ecosystem of partners to deliver the more outsourced services, APO and BPO. So, it's very clean from that set, we actually did not divest any of our technology services at all, and in fact, we're investing more. >> That's consistent with what HP did with Point Next, similar kind of, they had the EDS kind of thing, completely orthogonal to your operations, is what you're saying? >> Right and we've got such a phenomenal partner ecosystem that do this very well, each and every day, and all kinds of customer verticals and all kinds of geographies, they really have scale and we do this together with them. >> Okay, tough question, I'll put you on the spot, Howard, but I know you can handle it, if you could go back and get a mulligan from last year at the integration, what mulligan would you take, what would you tweak and change with the integration? >> You know, I'll tell you, I'm actually asked that question a lot and I'm not sure I would change anything. Look, let's face it, did everything go perfect? Nothing ever does. Are there some things that we go bump in the night occasionally? But all the big stuff, if I focus on the major stuff, right, in terms of the company structure, the operating model, the organizational structure of the company, the alignment of the goal to market, the alignment of the services, the product roadmaps and the portfolio, all of that went about as well as it could be expected. >> Talk about the momentum, VMware, I was just commenting in my opening, has a bigger market cap than actually HPE, just on the standalone basis. VMware is central in your services, you mentioned clouds, the great cloud play, recent deal with Amazon Web Services, how are you guys looking forward now? And if you could add some color to the conversations you're having with customers? So, you get a lot of things at your disposal, I'm trying to understand the top areas that customers are engaging you guys are, with respect to the VMware and this cloud-native shift in NSX. >> Actually, the big conversations are exactly that, in three dimensions. One is working with both Pivotal and VMware on the paths and layers, right, so they want to see that platform in place, they want to see the agility, the flexibility, the cloud-native essentials that are necessary to develop and deploy these new applications. By the way, also refactoring existing applications that they're deciding to keep into a more cloud-native world. Second is automation. How do I automate the IT infrastructure? Yeah, I'll modernize it, I'll go all flash, I'll go scalable, but how do I pull the labor cost out and be able to take that labor into more creative, innovative areas of my company, but I want to automate IT. And then, third is to make sure that the cost-effectiveness and the resiliency of that infrastructure is top-notch and world-class. Those are the conversations. The CIOs today, their job is getting more and more tough, they need to pull cost out, they have to have agility and flexibility. Oh, by the way, the systems can never go down and I want that new IOT thing, I want that new data analytic thing, I want that new machine-learning thing, so give me that agility and flexibility and creativity going forward. And those are the conversations we're having every day. >> Howard, as a guy who sort of oversaw this consolidation of these two companies, you have a chance to do something I think no two big companies have ever done before which is successfully merge. We were thinking earlier about, is there a precedent for a merger of this size that actually worked out and we couldn't think of one. >> Howard: Certainly not in IT. >> Not in IT, right, exactly. What makes you think this one will be different, other than the fact you're running it? >> I'm running services and IT now, I help put the playbook together. Look, the senior leadership team is now running it. And that's why we're going to continue to win, because of our relentless focus on customers, we all spend a tremendous amount of time understanding what our customers are doing, what more they want us to do, the feedback from our customers. We spend almost as much time with our partners as well. But this leadership team is on the mission. And it's about creating the essential infrastructure company for the next great era of IT, the industrial revolution where we know that companies need to transform in all those dimensions we talk about. And our leadership team, and we're just actually going through our next, we call Tell Dell Survey, where we also get feedback from our team members, from our employees and our measurements are clear. We measure ourself on customer MPS, our team-member employee MPS, our relative market share performance, are we gaining share or are we not and then all of that will deliver the financials that we all look for. And we are all aligned on that. >> Howard, you also oversee the Dell IT program, this is proven IT program. What is that about? I heard some buzz about that. >> Yeah, so this started several years ago where a lot of customers would say, "So, you want me to buy..." (sound cuts out) So we actually (sound cuts out). Things that work. (sound cuts out) >> Cooking up in... (sound cuts out) >> They have to. Witness richness of our portfolio because (sound cuts out). >> Howard, thank you for coming. Consecutive year, it's been a great journey for all. In fact, I remember the (sound cuts out). A 160 billion dollar market that's true private cloud, so you guys remember one in that as well, Dell EMC, great to see you and congratulations on a very successful transaction and hope to see more updates along the way. >> You got it, great to see you, thank you very much. >> All right, this is the Cube live coverage from Dell EMC World 2017, I'm John Furrier with Paul Gillan, we'll be right back with more coverage, stay with us.

[Music] live from cambridge massachusetts extracting the signal from the noise it's the cube covering the MIT chief data officer and information quality symposium now your host dave Volante and paul Gillett hi buddy welcome back to Cambridge Massachusetts we're at MIT Paul Gillan and myself are here for two days and we're really pleased to have sandy Pentland on he's the director of MIT Media labs entrepreneurship program just coming off a keynote mr. Alex sandy Pentland Spellman thanks for coming with you how'd you get that name sandy was that the color you know my dad was named Alex too so I had to get the diminutive so Alexander turns into Zander or Sasha or sandy ah excellent so man it's stuck so we learned from your keynote today that like your mom said hey if every other kid jumps off the bridge do you and the answer should be yes why is that well if your other friends or presumably as rational as you and have same sort of values as you and if they're doing something that looks crazy they must have a piece of information you don't like maybe Godzilla is coming bridges come and it really is time to get off but and so so while it's used as a metaphor for doing the irrational things it's actually shows that using your social context can be most rational because it's a way of getting information that you don't otherwise have so you broke down your talk to chief data officers and new types of analysis smarter organizations smarter networks and then really interesting new new architecture if we could sort of break those down sure you talked about sort of networks not individual nodes as really should be the focus to understand behavior can you unpack that a little well it's a little bit like the bridge or metaphor you know a lot of what we learn a lot of our behavior comes from watching other people we're not even conscious of it but you know if everybody else starts you know wearing a certain sort of shoe or or you know acting in a certain or using a phrase in business like all these new sort of buzz phrases like oh you have to - because it's to fit in it means something it's it's part of being hyper formants and being part of your group but that's not in data analytics today today what they look at is just your personal properties not what you're exposed to and the group that you're part of so they would look at the guy on the bridge and they say he's not going to jump because he doesn't have that information but on the other hand if all of other people who like him are making a different decision he probably is going to jump and your research has been you dig into organizations and you've found the relationship between productivity and this type of analysis has been pretty substantial very substantive offenses a ssin and outside of the organization dealing with customers so people focus on things like personality history various sort of training things like that what we find is compared to the pattern of interaction with other people so who do you talk to when and what situations those other factors are tiny they're often a whole order of magnitude less important than just do you talk to all the people in your group do you talk outside of your group do if you violate the org chart and talk to other people if you do you're almost certainly one of the high productivity high innovation people so what what impact does this have or were the implications of this on organizations which historically have been have been highly Madonn hierarchies reporting structures all of these institutions that we evolved in the post-world War two ERA is this working against their productivity well what they did is is they set some simple rules in that they could deal with and wrap their head around but what we find is that those simple rules are exactly the opposite of what you need for innovation and because really what they're doing is they're enforcing silos they're enforcing atomization of the work and everybody talks about we need to be more fluid we need to be more innovative we need to be able to move faster and what that requires is better communication habits and so what we find when we measure the communication habits is that that's exactly right better communication habits lead to more innovative organizations what's really amazing is almost no organization does it so people don't know does everybody talk to everybody in this group do they talk outside of the group there's no graphic there's no visualization and when you give a group a visualization of their pattern of organization of communication they change it and they become more innovative they become more productive I'm sure you're familiar with holacracy this idea that of doing away with with organizational boundaries and sort of do titles and sure everybody talks to everyone is that in your view a better way to structure an organization think that's too extreme but it's headed in the right direction I mean so what we're talking first of all people try to do this without any data so you know everybody's the same well everybody really isn't the same and how would you know if you're behaving as well as the same as other people or I mean there's no data so so what I'm suggesting is something that's sort of halfway between the two yeah you can have leaders you can have organization in there but you also have to have good flow of ideas and what that means is you have to make talking outside your org chart a value it's something you're rewarded for it means that including everybody in the loop in your organization is something you ought to be rewarded for and of course that requires data so the sorts of things we do with peoples we make displays could just be piece of paper that shows the patterns of communication and we give it to everybody and you know what people actually know what to do with it when you give it to them they say well gee you know this group of people is all talking to each other but they're not talking to that group maybe they ought to talk to each other it's that simple but in the lack of data you can't feel so you instrumented people essentially with let's badges and you could measure conversations at the watercooler yeah they're their frequency their duration not the content not the content just that's the activity just is it happening right and is it happening between groups just just people from this group go to that other groups water cooler stuff like that and that actually is enough to really make a substantial difference in the corporation and you gave an example of you were able to predict trending stories on Twitter better than the internal mechanism and Twitter did I understand that Kerina so what we've done by studying organizations like this and coming up with these sort of rules of how people behave so the notion that people learn from each other and that it's the patterns of communication that matter you can encode that along with machine learning and suddenly you get something that looks like machine learning but in many ways it's more powerful and more reliable and so we have a spin-out called Endor and what that does is it lets your average guy who can use a spreadsheet do something that's really competitive with the best machine learning groups in the world and that's pretty exciting because everybody has these reams of data but what they don't have is a whole bunch of PhDs who can study it for six months and and come up with a machine learning algorithm to do it they have a bunch of guys that are smart know the business but they don't know the machine learning so it endured doesn't supply something like a spreadsheet to be able to allow the normal guy to do as good as the machine learning guys there's a lot of focus right now on anticipating predicting customer behavior better a lot of us been focused on on individuals understanding individuals better is that wrongheaded I mean should marketers be looking more at this group theory and treating customers more as buckets of similar behaviors it's not it's not buckets but treating people as individuals is is a mistake because while people do have individual preferences most of those preferences are learned from other people it's keeping up with the Jones it's fitting in its it's learning what the best practice is so you can predict people better from the company they keep than you can from their demographics always virtually every single time you can do better from the company they keep than from the standard sort of data so what that means is when you do analysis you need to look at the relationships between people and at one level it's sort of obvious you analyze somebody personally without knowing something about their relationships right about you know the type of things they do the places they go those are important but they're usually not in the data and what I find is I do this with a lot of big organizations and what I find is you look at their data analytics it's all based on individuals and it's not based on the context to those individuals absolutely I want to ask you further about that because when I think of the surveys that I fill out they're always about my personal preference Yahoo I want to do I can't remember ever filling out a survey that asked me about what my peer group does are you saying that those are the questions we should be asking yeah exactly right and of course you want to get data about that you want to know if if you go to these locations all the time to go to that restaurant you go to this sort of entertainment who else goes there what are they by what's trending in your group because it's not the general population and these not necessary people I know but they're people I identify with Yammer haps that's why I go to certain restaurants not because my friends go there but because people who I aspire to be like yeah there yeah and and the other way around you go there and you say well gosh these other people are like me because they go here too and I see that they're you know wearing different sort of clothes or they're by or the simplest thing you go to restaurants you see other people all buying the mushi yes maybe I should try the mushi I usually don't like it but seems to work well and this is I like this restaurant and everybody else who comes here likes it so I'll try it right it's that simple so it's important to point out we're talking about the predictive analytics Capas they're probably people watching might say this Sandi's crazy we mean we don't want it personalized we want to personalize the customer experience still I'm presuming sure but when we're talking about predictive analytics you're saying the the community the peer group is a much better predictor than the individual that's right yeah okay so I want to come back to the the org chart these are you saying that org charts shouldn't necessarily change but the incentives should or your previous thing to do is you have an org chart but the incentives that are across the entire organization is good communication within the box you're in and good communication outside of the box and to put those incentives in place you need to have data you need to be able to have some way of estimating does everybody talk to each other do they talk to the rest of the organization and there's a variety of ways you can do that we do it with little badges we do it by analyzing phone call data email is not so good because email is not really a social relationship it's just this this little formal thing you do often but by using things like the badges like the phone calls surveys for that matter right you can give people feedback about are they communicating in the right way are they communicating with other parts of the organization and by visualizing that to people they'll begin to do the right thing you had this notion of network tuning oh you don't want an insufficiently diverse network but you don't want a network that's too dense you might find the sweet spot in the middle desert how do you actually implement that that tuning well the first thing is is you have to measure okay you have to know how dense is the social interaction the communication pattern because if you don't know that there's nothing to - right and then what you want to ask is you want to ask the signal property of something being two dances the same ideas go around then around and around so you look at the graph that you get from this data and you ask you know this Joe talked to Bob talk to Mary talk to Joe talk to you know is it full of cycles like that and if it's too full of cycles then that's a problem right because it's the same people talking to each other same ideas going around and there's some nice mathematical formulas for major in it they're sort of hard to put into English but it has to do with if you look at the flow of ideas are you getting a sufficiently diverse set of ideas coming to you or is it just the same people all talking to each other so are you sort of cut off from the rest of the world in your book social physics you talk about rewards and incentives isms and one of the things that struck me as you say that that rewards that people are actually more motivated by rewards for others than for themselves correct me if I'm wrong if paraphrasing you wrong there but but there's but but rewarding the group or or doing something good for somebody else is actually a powerful incentive is it is that the true the case well you said it almost right so so if you want to change behavior these social incentives are more powerful than financial incentives so if you have everybody in a group let's say and people are rewarded by the behavior of the other people in the group what will they do well they'll talk to the other people about doing the right thing because their reward my reward depends on your behavior so I'm gonna talk to you about it okay and your reward depends on it you'll talk and I don't know so what we're doing is we're creating much more communication around this problem and social pressure because you know if you don't do it you're screwing me and and you know I may not be a big thing but you're gonna think twice about that whereas some small financial award usually it's not such a big thing for people so if you think people talk a lot about you know persona persona marketing when I first met John Fourier he had this idea of affinity rank which was his version of you know peer group PageRank hmm do you do you hear a lot about you know get a lot of questions about persona persona marketing and and what does your research show in terms of how we should be appealing to that persona so sorry good questions about that some time and I don't know what he really originally intended but the way people often imply it is very static you have a particular persona that's fixed for all parts of your life well that's not true I mean you could be a baseball coach for your kid and a banker during the day and a member of a church and those are three different personas and what defines those personas it's the group that you're interacting with it's it's the the people you learn with and try and fit in so your persona is a variable thing and the thing that's the key to it is what are the groups that you're you're interacting with so if I analyzed your groups of interactions I'd see three different clusters I'd see the baseball one I'd say the banking one I'd see the church group one and then I would know that you have three personas and I could tell which one you're in typically by seeing who you're spending time with right now is the risk of applying this idea of behaviors influenced by groups is there the risk of falling over into profiling and essentially treating people anticipating behaviors based upon characteristics that may not be indicative of how any individual might act back credit alcoholics as you example right I don't get a job because people like people who are similar to me tend to be alcoholics let's say this is different though so this is not people who are similar to you if you hang out with alcoholics all the time then they're really eyes are good on that you're an alcoholic it may not be yes and there is a risk of over identifying or or extrapolating but it's different than people like me I mean if you go to the you know the dingy bars were beers or a buck and everybody gets wasted and you do that repeatedly you're talking about behaviors rather than characteristics behaviors rather than characteristics right I mean you know if you drink a lot maybe you drink a lot so we have a question from the crowd so it says real time makes persona very difficult yeah so it was come back to furriers premise was I was Twitter data you know such is changing very rapidly so are there social platforms that you see that can inform in real time to help us sort of get a better understanding of persona and affinity group affinity well there are data sources that do that right so first as if I look at telephone data or credit card data even for that matter sure this geo-located I can ask but what sort of people buy here or what sort of people are in this bar or restaurant and I can look at their demographics and where they go to I showed an example of that in San Francisco using data from San Francisco so there is this data which means that any app that's interested in it that has sufficient breadth and although sufficient adoption can do these sorts of analyses can you give an example of how you're working with the many organizations now I'm sure you can't name them but can you give an example of how you're applying these principles practically now whether it's in law enforcement or in consumer marketing how are you putting these to work well there's a bunch of different things that that go together with this view of you know it's the flow of ideas that's the important thing not the demographics so talk about behavior change and we're working with a small country to change their traffic safety by enrolling people in small groups where you know the benefit I get for driving right depends on your safety and we're good buddies we know that that's how you sign up sign up with your buddies and what that means is I'm going to talk to you about your driving if you're driving in a dangerous way and that we've seen in small experiments is a lot more effective than giving you points on your driver's license or discount on your insurance the social relationships so so that's an example another example is we're beginning a project to look at unemployment and what we see is is that people have a hard time getting re-employed don't have diverse enough social networks and it sounds kind of common sense but they don't physically get out enough compared to the people that do get jobs so what's the obvious thing well you encouraged them to get out more you make it easier for them to get out more so those are some examples when you talk about health care what you can do is you can say well look you know I don't know particular things you're doing but based on the behavior that you show right and the behavior of the people you hang with you may be at much higher risk of diabetes and it's not any particular behavior this is the way medical stuff is always pitched is you know it's this behavior that beer every combination of things all right and so you're not really aware that you're doing anything bad but if all your buds are at risk of it then you probably are too because you're probably doing a lot of the same sort of behaviors and medicine is a place where people are willing to give up some of the privacy because the consequences are so important so we're looking at people who are interested in personalized medicine and are willing to you know share their data about where they go and what they spend time doing in order to get statistics back from the people they spend time with about what are the risk factors they pick up from the people around them and the behaviors they engage in um your message this to the cdos today was you know you were sort of joking you're measuring that right and a lot of times they weren't a lot of the non-intuitive things your research has found so I wanna talk about the data and access to the data and how the CBO can you know affect change in their organization a lot of the data lives in silos I mean if they certainly think of social data Facebook LinkedIn yeah Twitter you mentioned credit card data is that a problem or is data becoming more accessible through api's or is it still just sort of a battle to get that data architecture running well it's a it's a battle and in fact actually it's a political and very passionate battle and it revolves around who controls the data and privacy is a big part of that so one of the messages is that to be able to get really ditch data sources you have to engage with the customer a lot so people are more than willing our research we've set up you know entire cities where we've changed the rules and we've found that people are more than willing to volunteer very detailed personal data under two conditions one is they have to know that it's safe so you're not reselling it you're handling it in a secure way it's not going to get out in some way and the other is that they get value for it and they can see the value so it's not spreading out and they're part of the discussion so you know you want more personalized medicine people are willing to share right because it's important to them or for their family you know if you want to share we're willing to share very personal stuff about their kids they would never do that but if it results in the kid getting a better education more opportunity yeah they're absolutely willing so that leads to a great segue into enigma yeah you talked about enigma as a potential security layer for the internet but also potential privacy yeah solution so talk about enigma where it's at yeah what it is where it's at and how it potentially could permeate yeah so we've been building architectures and working with this sort of problem this conundrum basically datas and silos people feel paranoid and probably correctly about their data leaky now companies don't have access to data don't know what to do with it and a lot of it has to do with safe sharing another aspect of this problem is cybersecurity you're getting increasing the amount of attacks done stuff bad for companies bad for people it's just going to get worse and we actually know what the answers to these things are the answers our data is encrypted all the time everywhere you do the computation on encrypted data you never transmit it you never unencrypted it to be able to do things we also know that in terms of control of the data is possible to build fairly simple permission mechanisms so that you know the computer just won't share it in the wrong places and if it does you know skyrockets go up and the cop scum you can build systems like that today but the part that's never been able never allowed that to happen is you need to keep track of a lot of things in a way that's not hackable you need to know that somebody doesn't just short-circuit it or take it out the back and what's interesting is the mechanisms that are in Bitcoin give you exactly that power so you whatever you feel about Bitcoin you know it's speculative bubble or whatever the blockchain which is part of it is this open ledger that is unhackable and and has the following characteristics that's amazing it's called trustless what that means is you can work with a bunch of crooks and still know that the ledger that you're keeping is correct because it doesn't require trusting people to work with them it's something where everybody has to agree to be able to get things and it works it works in Bitcoin at scale over the whole world and so what we've done is adapted that technology to be able to build a system called enigma which takes data in an encrypted form computes on it in an encrypted form transmits it according to the person's permissions and only that way in an encrypted form and you know it provides this layer of security and privacy that we've never had before there have been some projects that come close to this but know we're pretty excited about this and and what I think you're going to see is you're going to see some of the big financial institutions trying to use it among themselves some of the big logistics some of the big medical things trying to use it in in hotspots where they have real problems but the hope is is that it gets spread among the general population so it becomes quite literally the privacy and security level that doesn't have Warren Buffett might be right that it might fail as a currency but the technology has really inspired some new innovations that's right so so it's essentially a distributed it's not a walled garden it's a distributed black box that's what you're describing you never exposed the data that's right you don't need a trusted third party that's getting attacked that's right nobody has to stamp that this is correct because the moment you do that first of all other people are controlling you and the second thing is is there a point of attack so it gets rid of that trusted third party centralization makes it distributed you can have again a bunch of bad actors in the system it doesn't hurt it's peer-to-peer where you have to have 51% of the people being bad before things really go bad how do you solve the problem of performing calculations on encrypted data because they're classic techniques actually it's been known for over 20 years how to do that but there are two pieces missing one piece is it wasn't efficient it scaled really poorly and what we did is came up with a way of solving that by making it essentially multi scale so it's it's a distributed solution for this that brings the cost down to something that's linear in the number of elements which is a real change and the second is keeping track of all of the stuff in a way that's secure it's fine to have an addition that's secure you know but if that isn't better than a whole system that secure it doesn't do you any good and so that's where the blockchain comes in it gives you this accounting mechanism for knowing which computations are being done who has access to them what the keys are things like that so Google glass was sort of incubated in MIT Media labs and well before yeah my group you go right in your group and yeah it didn't take off me because it's just not cool it looks kind of goofy but now enigma has a lot of potential solving a huge problem are you can open-source it what do you yeah it's an open-source system we hope to get more people involved in it and right now we're looking for some test beds to show how well it works and make sure that all the things are dotted and crossed and so forth and where can people learn more about it oh go to a nygma dot media dot mit.edu all right sandy we're way over our time so obviously you were interesting so thanks keep right there buddy Paul and I we right back with our next guest we're live from see this is the cube right back [Music]