(vibrant electronic music) >> Welcome back to SuperCloud2. You know, this event, and the Super Cloud initiative in general, it's an open industry-wide collaboration. Last August at SuperCloud22, we really honed in on the definition, which of course we've published. And there's this shared doc, which folks are still adding to and refining, in fact, just recently, Dr. Nelu Mihai added some critical points that really advanced some of the community's initial principles, and today at SuperCloud2, we're digging further into the topic with input from real world practitioners, and we're exploring that intersection of data, data mesh, and cloud, and importantly, the realities and challenges of deploying technology to drive new business capability, and I'm pleased to welcome Ash Naseer to the program. He's a Senior Director of Data Engineering at Warner Bros. Discovery. Ash, great to see you again, thanks so much for taking time with us. >> It's great to be back, these conversations are always very fun. >> I was so excited when we met last spring, I guess, so before we get started I wanted to play a clip from that conversation, it was June, it was at the Snowflake Summit in Las Vegas. And it's a comment that you made about your company but also data mesh. Guys, roll the clip. >> Yeah, so, when people think of Warner Bros., you always think of the movie studio. But we're more than that, right, I mean, you think of HBO, you think of TNT, you think of CNN. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio, and each have their own needs. So the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company, so that CNN can work at their own pace, you know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data. And they don't have to bump up against, as an example, HBO, if Game of Thrones is goin' on. >> So-- Okay, so that's pretty interesting, so you've got these sort of different groups that have different data requirements inside of your organization. Now data mesh, it's a relatively new concept, so you're kind of ahead of the curve. So Ash, my question is, when you think about getting value from data, and how that's changed over the past decade, you've had pre-Hadoop, Hadoop, what do you see that's changed, now you got the cloud coming in, what's changed? What had to be sort of fixed? What's working now, and where do you see it going? >> Yeah, so I feel like in the last decade, we've gone through quite a maturity curve. I actually like to say that we're in the golden age of data, because the tools and technology in the data space, particularly and then broadly in the cloud, they allow us to do things that we couldn't do way back when, like you suggested, back in the Hadoop era or even before that. So there's certainly a lot of maturity, and a lot of technology that has come about. So in terms of the good, bad, and ugly, so let me kind of start with the good, right? In terms of bringing value from the data, I really feel like we're in this place where the folks that are charged with unlocking that value from the data, they're actually spending the majority of their time actually doing that. And what do I mean by that? If you think about it, 10 years ago, the data scientist was the person that was going to sort of solve all of the data problems in a company. But what happened was, companies asked these data scientists to come in and do a multitude of things. And what these data scientists found out was, they were spending most of their time on, really, data wrangling, and less on actually getting the value out of the data. And in the last decade or so, I feel like we've made the shift, and we realize that data engineering, data management, data governance, those are as important practices as data science, which is sort of getting the value out of the data. And so what that has done is, it has freed up the data scientist and the business analyst and the data analyst, and the BI expert, to really focus on how to get value out of the data, and spend less time wrangling data. So I really think that that's the good. In terms of the bad, I feel like, there's a lot of legacy data platforms out there, and I feel like there's going to be a time where we'll be in that hybrid mode. And then the ugly, I feel like, with all the data and all the technology, creates another problem of itself. Because most companies don't have arms around their data, and making sure that they know who's using the data, what they're using for, and how can the company leverage the collective intelligence. That is a bigger problem to solve today than 10 years ago. And that's where technologies like the data mesh come in. >> Yeah, so when I think of data mesh, and I say, you're an early practitioner of data mesh, you mentioned legacy technology, so the concept of data mesh is inclusive. In theory anyway, you're supposed to be including the legacy technologies. Whether it's a data lake or data warehouse or Oracle or Snowflake or whatever it is. And when you think about Jamak Dagani's principles, it's domain-centric ownership, data as product. And that creates challenges around self-serve infrastructure and automated governance, and then when you start to combine these different technologies. You got legacy, you got cloud. Everything's different. And so you have to figure out how to deal with that, so my question is, how have you dealt with that, and what role has the cloud played in solving those problems, in particular, that self-serve infrastructure, and that automated governance, and where are we in terms of solving that problem from a practitioner's standpoint? >> Yeah, I always like to say that data is a team sport, and we should sort of think of it as such, and that's, I feel like, the key of the data mesh concept, is treating it as a team sport. A lot of people ask me, they're like, "Oh hey, Ash, I've heard about this thing called data mesh. "Where can I buy one?" or, "what's the technology that I use to get a data mesh? And the reality is that there isn't one technology, you can't really buy a data mesh. It's really a way of life, it's how organizations decide to approach data, like I said, back to a team sport analogy, making sure that everyone has the seat on the table, making sure that we embrace the fact that we have a lot of data, we have a lot of data problems to solve. And the way we'll be successful is to make everyone inclusive. You know, you think about the old days, Data silos or shadow IT, some might call it. That's been around for decades. And what hasn't changed was this notion that, hey, everything needs to be sort of managed centrally. But with the cloud and with the technologies that we have today, we have the right technology and the tooling to democratize that data, and democratize not only just the access, but also sort of building building blocks and sort of taking building blocks which are relevant to your product or your business. And adding to the overall data mesh. We've got all that technology. The challenge is for us to really embrace it, and make sure that we implement it from an organizational standpoint. >> So, thinking about super cloud, there's a layer that lives above the clouds and adds value. And you think about your brands you got 30 brands, you mentioned shadow IT. If, let's say, one of those brands, HBO or TNT, whatever. They want to go, "Hey, we really like Google's analytics tools," and they maybe go off and build something, I don't know if that's even allowed, maybe it's not. But then you build this data mesh. My question is around multi-cloud, cross cloud, super cloud if you will. Is that a advantage for you as a practitioner, or does that just make things more complicated? >> I really love the idea of a multi-cloud. I think it's great, I think that it should have been the norm, not the exception, I feel like people talk about it as if it's the exception. That should have been the case. I will say, though, I feel like multi-cloud should evolve organically, so back to your point about some of these different brands, and, you know, different brands or different business units. Or even in a merger and acquisitions situation, where two different companies or multiple different companies come together with different technology stacks. You know, I feel like that's an organic evolution, and making sure that we use the concepts and the technologies around the multi-cloud to bring everyone together. That's where we need to be, and again, it talks to the fact that each of those business units and each of those groups have their own unique needs, and we need to make sure that we embrace that and we enable that, rather than stifling everything. Now where I have a little bit of a challenge with the multi-cloud is when technology leaders try to build it by design. So there's a notion there that, "Hey, you need to sort of diversify "and don't put all your eggs in one basket." And so we need to have this multi-cloud thing. I feel like that is just sort of creating more complexity where it doesn't need to be, we can all sort of simplify our lives, but where it evolves organically, absolutely, I think that's the right way to go. >> But, so Ash, if it evolves organically don't you need some kind of cloud interpreter, to create a common experience across clouds, does that exist today? What are your thoughts on that? >> There is a lot of technology that exists today, and that helps go between these different clouds, a lot of these sort of cloud agnostic technologies that you talked about, the Snowflakes and the Databricks and so forth of the world, they operate in multiple clouds, they operate in multiple regions, within a given cloud and multiple clouds. So they span all of that, and they have the tools and technology, so, I feel like the tooling is there. There does need to be more of an evolution around the tooling and I think the market's need are going to dictate that, I feel like the market is there, they're asking for it, so, there's definitely going to be that evolution, but the technology is there, I think just making sure that we embrace that and we sort of embrace that as a challenge and not try to sort of shut all of that down and box everything into one. >> What's the biggest challenge, is it governance or security? Or is it more like you're saying, adoption, cultural? >> I think it's a combination of cultural as well as governance. And so, the cultural side I've talked about, right, just making sure that we give these different teams a seat at the table, and they actually bring that technology into the mix. And we use the modern tools and technologies to make sure that everybody sort of plays nice together. That is definitely, we have ways to go there. But then, in terms of governance, that is another big problem that most companies are just starting to wrestle with. Because like I said, I mean, the data silos and shadow IT, that's been around there, right? The only difference is that we're now sort of bringing everything together in a cloud environment, the collective organization has access to that. And now we just realized, oh we have quite a data problem at our hands, so how do we sort of organize this data, make sure that the quality is there, the trust is there. When people look at that data, a lot of those questions are now coming to the forefront because everything is sort of so transparent with the cloud, right? And so I feel like, again, putting in the right processes, and the right tooling to address that is going to be critical in the next years to come. >> Is sharing data across clouds, something that is valuable to you, or even within a single cloud, being able to share data. And my question is, not just within your organization, but even outside your organization, is that something that has sort of hit your radar or is it mature or is that something that really would add value to your business? >> Data sharing is huge, and again, this is another one of those things which isn't new. You know, I remember back in the '90s, when we had to share data externally, with our partners or our vendors, they used to physically send us stacks of these tapes, or physical media on some truck. And we've evolved since then, right, I mean, it went from that to sharing files online and so forth. But data sharing as a concept and as a concept which is now very frictionless, through these different technologies that we have today, that is very new. And that is something, like I said, it's always been going on. But that needs to be really embraced more as well. We as a company heavily leverage data sharing between our own different brands and business units, that helps us make that data mesh, so that when CNN, as an example, builds their own data model based on election data and the kinds of data that they need, compare that with other data in the rest of the company, sports, entertainment, and so forth and so on. Everyone has their unique data, but that data sharing capability brings it together wherever there is a need. So you think about having a Tiger Woods documentary, as an example, on HBO Max and making sure that you reach the audiences that are interested in golf and interested in sports and so forth, right? That all comes through the magic of data sharing, so, it's really critical, internally, for us. And then externally as well, because just understanding how our products are doing on our partners' networks and different distribution channels, that's important, and then just understanding how our consumers are consuming it off properties, right, I mean, we have brands that transcend just the screen, right? We have a lot of physical merchandise that you can buy in the store. So again, understanding who's buying the Batman action figures after the Batman movie was released, that's another critical insight. So it all gets enabled through data sharing, and something we rely heavily on. >> So I wanted to get your perspective on this. So I feel like the nirvana of data mesh is if I want to use Google BigQuery, an Oracle database, or a Microsoft database, or Snowflake, Databricks, Amazon, whatever. That that's a node on the mesh. And in the perfect world, you can share that data, it can be governed, I don't think we're quite there today, so. But within a platform, maybe it's within Google or within Amazon or within Snowflake or Databricks. If you're in that world, maybe even Oracle. You actually can do some levels of data sharing, maybe greater with some than others. Do you mandate as an organization that you have to use this particular data platform, or are you saying "Hey, we are architecting a data mesh for the future "where we believe the technology will support that," or maybe you've invented some technology that supports that today, can you help us understand that? >> Yeah, I always feel like mandate is a strong area, and it breeds the shadow IT and the data silos. So we don't mandate, we do make sure that there's a consistent set of governance rules, policies, and tooling that's there, so that everyone is on the same page. However, at the same time our focus is really operating in a federated way, that's been our solution, right? Is to make sure that we work within a common set of tooling, which may be different technologies, which in some cases may be different clouds. Although we're not that multi-cloud. So what we're trying to do is making sure that everyone who has that technology already built, as long as it sort of follows certain standards, it's modern, it has the capabilities that will eventually allow us to be successful and eventually allow for that data sharing, amongst those different nodes, as you put it. As long as that's the case, and as long as there's a governance layer, a master governance layer, where we know where all that data is and who has access to what and we can sort of be really confident about the quality of the data, as long as that case, our approach to that is really that federated approach. >> Sorry, did I hear you correctly, you're not multi-cloud today? >> Yeah, that's correct. There are certain spots where we use that, but by and large, we rely on a particular cloud, and that's just been, like I said, it's been the evolution, it was our evolution. We decided early on to focus on a single cloud, and that's the direction we've been going in. >> So, do you want to go to a multi-cloud, or, you mentioned organic before, if a business unit wants to go there, as long as they're adhering to those standards that you put out, maybe recommendations, that that's okay? I guess my question is, does that bring benefit to your business that you'd like to tap, or do you feel like it's not necessary? >> I'll go back to the point of, if it happens organically, we're going to be open about it. Obviously we'll have to look at every situations, not all clouds are created equal as well, so there's a number of different considerations. But by and large, when it happens organically, the key is time to value, right? How do you quickly bring those technologies in, as long as you could share the data, they're interconnected, they're secured, they're governed, we are confident on the quality, as long as those principles are met, we could definitely go in that direction. But by and large, we're sort of evolving in a singular direction, but even within a singular cloud, we're a global company. And we have audiences around the world, so making sure that even within a single cloud, those different regions interoperate as one, that's a bigger challenge that we're having to solve as well. >> Last question is kind of to the future of data and cloud and how it's going to evolve, do you see a day when companies like yours are increasingly going to be offering data, their software, services, and becoming more of a technology company, sort of pointing your tooling and your proprietary knowledge at the external world, as an opportunity, as a business opportunity? >> That's a very interesting concept, and I know companies have done that, and some of them have been extremely successful, I mean, Amazon is the biggest example that comes to mind, right-- >> Yeah. >> When they launched AWS, something that they had that expertise they had internally, and they offered it to the world as a product. But by and large, I think it's going to be far and few between, especially, it's going to be focused on companies that have technology as their DNA, or almost like in the technology sector, building technology. Most other companies have different markets that they are addressing. And in my opinion, a lot of these companies, what they're trying to do is really focus on the problems that we can solve for ourselves, I think there are more problems than we have people and expertise. So my guess is that most large companies, they're going to focus on solving their own problems. A few, like I said, more tech-focused companies, that would want to be in that business, would probably branch out, but by and large, I think companies will continue to focus on serving their customers and serving their own business. >> Alright, Ash, we're going to leave it there, Ash Naseer. Thank you so much for your perspectives, it was great to see you, I'm sure we'll see you face-to-face later on this year. >> This is great, thank you for having me. >> Ah, you're welcome, alright. Keep it right there for more great content from SuperCloud2. We'll be right back. (gentle percussive music)

>>From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and E T R. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >>Making technology predictions in 2022 was tricky business, especially if you were projecting the performance of markets or identifying I P O prospects and making binary forecast on data AI and the macro spending climate and other related topics in enterprise tech 2022, of course was characterized by a seesaw economy where central banks were restructuring their balance sheets. The war on Ukraine fueled inflation supply chains were a mess. And the unintended consequences of of forced march to digital and the acceleration still being sorted out. Hello and welcome to this week's weekly on Cube Insights powered by E T R. In this breaking analysis, we continue our annual tradition of transparently grading last year's enterprise tech predictions. And you may or may not agree with our self grading system, but look, we're gonna give you the data and you can draw your own conclusions and tell you what, tell us what you think. >>All right, let's get right to it. So our first prediction was tech spending increases by 8% in 2022. And as we exited 2021 CIOs, they were optimistic about their digital transformation plans. You know, they rushed to make changes to their business and were eager to sharpen their focus and continue to iterate on their digital business models and plug the holes that they, the, in the learnings that they had. And so we predicted that 8% rise in enterprise tech spending, which looked pretty good until Ukraine and the Fed decided that, you know, had to rush and make up for lost time. We kind of nailed the momentum in the energy sector, but we can't give ourselves too much credit for that layup. And as of October, Gartner had it spending growing at just over 5%. I think it was 5.1%. So we're gonna take a C plus on this one and, and move on. >>Our next prediction was basically kind of a slow ground ball. The second base, if I have to be honest, but we felt it was important to highlight that security would remain front and center as the number one priority for organizations in 2022. As is our tradition, you know, we try to up the degree of difficulty by specifically identifying companies that are gonna benefit from these trends. So we highlighted some possible I P O candidates, which of course didn't pan out. S NQ was on our radar. The company had just had to do another raise and they recently took a valuation hit and it was a down round. They raised 196 million. So good chunk of cash, but, but not the i p O that we had predicted Aqua Securities focus on containers and cloud native. That was a trendy call and we thought maybe an M SS P or multiple managed security service providers like Arctic Wolf would I p o, but no way that was happening in the crummy market. >>Nonetheless, we think these types of companies, they're still faring well as the talent shortage in security remains really acute, particularly in the sort of mid-size and small businesses that often don't have a sock Lacework laid off 20% of its workforce in 2022. And CO C e o Dave Hatfield left the company. So that I p o didn't, didn't happen. It was probably too early for Lacework. Anyway, meanwhile you got Netscope, which we've cited as strong in the E T R data as particularly in the emerging technology survey. And then, you know, I lumia holding its own, you know, we never liked that 7 billion price tag that Okta paid for auth zero, but we loved the TAM expansion strategy to target developers beyond sort of Okta's enterprise strength. But we gotta take some points off of the failure thus far of, of Okta to really nail the integration and the go to market model with azero and build, you know, bring that into the, the, the core Okta. >>So the focus on endpoint security that was a winner in 2022 is CrowdStrike led that charge with others holding their own, not the least of which was Palo Alto Networks as it continued to expand beyond its core network security and firewall business, you know, through acquisition. So overall we're gonna give ourselves an A minus for this relatively easy call, but again, we had some specifics associated with it to make it a little tougher. And of course we're watching ve very closely this this coming year in 2023. The vendor consolidation trend. You know, according to a recent Palo Alto network survey with 1300 SecOps pros on average organizations have more than 30 tools to manage security tools. So this is a logical way to optimize cost consolidating vendors and consolidating redundant vendors. The E T R data shows that's clearly a trend that's on the upswing. >>Now moving on, a big theme of 2020 and 2021 of course was remote work and hybrid work and new ways to work and return to work. So we predicted in 2022 that hybrid work models would become the dominant protocol, which clearly is the case. We predicted that about 33% of the workforce would come back to the office in 2022 in September. The E T R data showed that figure was at 29%, but organizations expected that 32% would be in the office, you know, pretty much full-time by year end. That hasn't quite happened, but we were pretty close with the projection, so we're gonna take an A minus on this one. Now, supply chain disruption was another big theme that we felt would carry through 2022. And sure that sounds like another easy one, but as is our tradition, again we try to put some binary metrics around our predictions to put some meat in the bone, so to speak, and and allow us than you to say, okay, did it come true or not? >>So we had some data that we presented last year and supply chain issues impacting hardware spend. We said at the time, you can see this on the left hand side of this chart, the PC laptop demand would remain above pre covid levels, which would reverse a decade of year on year declines, which I think started in around 2011, 2012. Now, while demand is down this year pretty substantially relative to 2021, I D C has worldwide unit shipments for PCs at just over 300 million for 22. If you go back to 2019 and you're looking at around let's say 260 million units shipped globally, you know, roughly, so, you know, pretty good call there. Definitely much higher than pre covid levels. But so what you might be asking why the B, well, we projected that 30% of customers would replace security appliances with cloud-based services and that more than a third would replace their internal data center server and storage hardware with cloud services like 30 and 40% respectively. >>And we don't have explicit survey data on exactly these metrics, but anecdotally we see this happening in earnest. And we do have some data that we're showing here on cloud adoption from ET R'S October survey where the midpoint of workloads running in the cloud is around 34% and forecast, as you can see, to grow steadily over the next three years. So this, well look, this is not, we understand it's not a one-to-one correlation with our prediction, but it's a pretty good bet that we were right, but we gotta take some points off, we think for the lack of unequivocal proof. Cause again, we always strive to make our predictions in ways that can be measured as accurate or not. Is it binary? Did it happen, did it not? Kind of like an O K R and you know, we strive to provide data as proof and in this case it's a bit fuzzy. >>We have to admit that although we're pretty comfortable that the prediction was accurate. And look, when you make an hard forecast, sometimes you gotta pay the price. All right, next, we said in 2022 that the big four cloud players would generate 167 billion in IS and PaaS revenue combining for 38% market growth. And our current forecasts are shown here with a comparison to our January, 2022 figures. So coming into this year now where we are today, so currently we expect 162 billion in total revenue and a 33% growth rate. Still very healthy, but not on our mark. So we think a w s is gonna miss our predictions by about a billion dollars, not, you know, not bad for an 80 billion company. So they're not gonna hit that expectation though of getting really close to a hundred billion run rate. We thought they'd exit the year, you know, closer to, you know, 25 billion a quarter and we don't think they're gonna get there. >>Look, we pretty much nailed Azure even though our prediction W was was correct about g Google Cloud platform surpassing Alibaba, Alibaba, we way overestimated the performance of both of those companies. So we're gonna give ourselves a C plus here and we think, yeah, you might think it's a little bit harsh, we could argue for a B minus to the professor, but the misses on GCP and Alibaba we think warrant a a self penalty on this one. All right, let's move on to our prediction about Supercloud. We said it becomes a thing in 2022 and we think by many accounts it has, despite the naysayers, we're seeing clear evidence that the concept of a layer of value add that sits above and across clouds is taking shape. And on this slide we showed just some of the pickup in the industry. I mean one of the most interesting is CloudFlare, the biggest supercloud antagonist. >>Charles Fitzgerald even predicted that no vendor would ever use the term in their marketing. And that would be proof if that happened that Supercloud was a thing and he said it would never happen. Well CloudFlare has, and they launched their version of Supercloud at their developer week. Chris Miller of the register put out a Supercloud block diagram, something else that Charles Fitzgerald was, it was was pushing us for, which is rightly so, it was a good call on his part. And Chris Miller actually came up with one that's pretty good at David Linthicum also has produced a a a A block diagram, kind of similar, David uses the term metacloud and he uses the term supercloud kind of interchangeably to describe that trend. And so we we're aligned on that front. Brian Gracely has covered the concept on the popular cloud podcast. Berkeley launched the Sky computing initiative. >>You read through that white paper and many of the concepts highlighted in the Supercloud 3.0 community developed definition align with that. Walmart launched a platform with many of the supercloud salient attributes. So did Goldman Sachs, so did Capital One, so did nasdaq. So you know, sorry you can hate the term, but very clearly the evidence is gathering for the super cloud storm. We're gonna take an a plus on this one. Sorry, haters. Alright, let's talk about data mesh in our 21 predictions posts. We said that in the 2020s, 75% of large organizations are gonna re-architect their big data platforms. So kind of a decade long prediction. We don't like to do that always, but sometimes it's warranted. And because it was a longer term prediction, we, at the time in, in coming into 22 when we were evaluating our 21 predictions, we took a grade of incomplete because the sort of decade long or majority of the decade better part of the decade prediction. >>So last year, earlier this year, we said our number seven prediction was data mesh gains momentum in 22. But it's largely confined and narrow data problems with limited scope as you can see here with some of the key bullets. So there's a lot of discussion in the data community about data mesh and while there are an increasing number of examples, JP Morgan Chase, Intuit, H S P C, HelloFresh, and others that are completely rearchitecting parts of their data platform completely rearchitecting entire data platforms is non-trivial. There are organizational challenges, there're data, data ownership, debates, technical considerations, and in particular two of the four fundamental data mesh principles that the, the need for a self-service infrastructure and federated computational governance are challenging. Look, democratizing data and facilitating data sharing creates conflicts with regulatory requirements around data privacy. As such many organizations are being really selective with their data mesh implementations and hence our prediction of narrowing the scope of data mesh initiatives. >>I think that was right on J P M C is a good example of this, where you got a single group within a, within a division narrowly implementing the data mesh architecture. They're using a w s, they're using data lakes, they're using Amazon Glue, creating a catalog and a variety of other techniques to meet their objectives. They kind of automating data quality and it was pretty well thought out and interesting approach and I think it's gonna be made easier by some of the announcements that Amazon made at the recent, you know, reinvent, particularly trying to eliminate ET t l, better connections between Aurora and Redshift and, and, and better data sharing the data clean room. So a lot of that is gonna help. Of course, snowflake has been on this for a while now. Many other companies are facing, you know, limitations as we said here and this slide with their Hadoop data platforms. They need to do new, some new thinking around that to scale. HelloFresh is a really good example of this. Look, the bottom line is that organizations want to get more value from data and having a centralized, highly specialized teams that own the data problem, it's been a barrier and a blocker to success. The data mesh starts with organizational considerations as described in great detail by Ash Nair of Warner Brothers. So take a listen to this clip. >>Yeah, so when people think of Warner Brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of H B O, you think of t n t, you think of C N N. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the, the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against, as an example, HBO if Game of Thrones is going on. >>So it's often the case that data mesh is in the eyes of the implementer. And while a company's implementation may not strictly adhere to Jamma Dani's vision of data mesh, and that's okay, the goal is to use data more effectively. And despite Gartner's attempts to deposition data mesh in favor of the somewhat confusing or frankly far more confusing data fabric concept that they stole from NetApp data mesh is taking hold in organizations globally today. So we're gonna take a B on this one. The prediction is shaping up the way we envision, but as we previously reported, it's gonna take some time. The better part of a decade in our view, new standards have to emerge to make this vision become reality and they'll come in the form of both open and de facto approaches. Okay, our eighth prediction last year focused on the face off between Snowflake and Databricks. >>And we realized this popular topic, and maybe one that's getting a little overplayed, but these are two companies that initially, you know, looked like they were shaping up as partners and they, by the way, they are still partnering in the field. But you go back a couple years ago, the idea of using an AW w s infrastructure, Databricks machine intelligence and applying that on top of Snowflake as a facile data warehouse, still very viable. But both of these companies, they have much larger ambitions. They got big total available markets to chase and large valuations that they have to justify. So what's happening is, as we've previously reported, each of these companies is moving toward the other firm's core domain and they're building out an ecosystem that'll be critical for their future. So as part of that effort, we said each is gonna become aggressive investors and maybe start doing some m and a and they have in various companies. >>And on this chart that we produced last year, we studied some of the companies that were targets and we've added some recent investments of both Snowflake and Databricks. As you can see, they've both, for example, invested in elation snowflake's, put money into Lacework, the Secur security firm, ThoughtSpot, which is trying to democratize data with ai. Collibra is a governance platform and you can see Databricks investments in data transformation with D B T labs, Matillion doing simplified business intelligence hunters. So that's, you know, they're security investment and so forth. So other than our thought that we'd see Databricks I p o last year, this prediction been pretty spot on. So we'll give ourselves an A on that one. Now observability has been a hot topic and we've been covering it for a while with our friends at E T R, particularly Eric Bradley. Our number nine prediction last year was basically that if you're not cloud native and observability, you are gonna be in big trouble. >>So everything guys gotta go cloud native. And that's clearly been the case. Splunk, the big player in the space has been transitioning to the cloud, hasn't always been pretty, as we reported, Datadog real momentum, the elk stack, that's open source model. You got new entrants that we've cited before, like observe, honeycomb, chaos search and others that we've, we've reported on, they're all born in the cloud. So we're gonna take another a on this one, admittedly, yeah, it's a re reasonably easy call, but you gotta have a few of those in the mix. Okay, our last prediction, our number 10 was around events. Something the cube knows a little bit about. We said that a new category of events would emerge as hybrid and that for the most part is happened. So that's gonna be the mainstay is what we said. That pure play virtual events are gonna give way to hi hybrid. >>And the narrative is that virtual only events are, you know, they're good for quick hits, but lousy replacements for in-person events. And you know that said, organizations of all shapes and sizes, they learn how to create better virtual content and support remote audiences during the pandemic. So when we set at pure play is gonna give way to hybrid, we said we, we i we implied or specific or specified that the physical event that v i p experience is going defined. That overall experience and those v i p events would create a little fomo, fear of, of missing out in a virtual component would overlay that serves an audience 10 x the size of the physical. We saw that really two really good examples. Red Hat Summit in Boston, small event, couple thousand people served tens of thousands, you know, online. Second was Google Cloud next v i p event in, in New York City. >>Everything else was, was, was, was virtual. You know, even examples of our prediction of metaverse like immersion have popped up and, and and, and you know, other companies are doing roadshow as we predicted like a lot of companies are doing it. You're seeing that as a major trend where organizations are going with their sales teams out into the regions and doing a little belly to belly action as opposed to the big giant event. That's a definitely a, a trend that we're seeing. So in reviewing this prediction, the grade we gave ourselves is, you know, maybe a bit unfair, it should be, you could argue for a higher grade, but the, but the organization still haven't figured it out. They have hybrid experiences but they generally do a really poor job of leveraging the afterglow and of event of an event. It still tends to be one and done, let's move on to the next event or the next city. >>Let the sales team pick up the pieces if they were paying attention. So because of that, we're only taking a B plus on this one. Okay, so that's the review of last year's predictions. You know, overall if you average out our grade on the 10 predictions that come out to a b plus, I dunno why we can't seem to get that elusive a, but we're gonna keep trying our friends at E T R and we are starting to look at the data for 2023 from the surveys and all the work that we've done on the cube and our, our analysis and we're gonna put together our predictions. We've had literally hundreds of inbounds from PR pros pitching us. We've got this huge thick folder that we've started to review with our yellow highlighter. And our plan is to review it this month, take a look at all the data, get some ideas from the inbounds and then the e t R of January surveys in the field. >>It's probably got a little over a thousand responses right now. You know, they'll get up to, you know, 1400 or so. And once we've digested all that, we're gonna go back and publish our predictions for 2023 sometime in January. So stay tuned for that. All right, we're gonna leave it there for today. You wanna thank Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our, our Boston studio. I gotta really heartfelt thank you to Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight and their team. They helped get the word out on social and in our newsletters. Rob Ho is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle who does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these podcasts are available or all these episodes are available is podcasts. Wherever you listen, just all you do Search Breaking analysis podcast, really getting some great traction there. Appreciate you guys subscribing. I published each week on wikibon.com, silicon angle.com or you can email me directly at david dot valante silicon angle.com or dm me Dante, or you can comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out ETR AI for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. Some awesome stuff in there. This is Dante for the Cube Insights powered by etr. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of Snowflake Summit '22 live from Caesar's Forum in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin, my cohost Dave Vellante, we've been here the last day and a half unpacking a lot of news, a lot of announcements, talking with customers and partners, and we have another great session coming for you next. We've got a customer and a partner talking tech and data mash. Please welcome Mitesh Shah, VP in market strategy at Elation. >> Great to be here. >> and Ash Naseer great, to have you, senior director of data engineering at Warner Brothers Discovery. Welcome guys. >> Thank you for having me. >> It's great to be back in person and to be able to really get to see and feel and touch this technology, isn't it? >> Yeah, it is. I mean two years or so. Yeah. Great to feel the energy in the conference center. >> Yeah. >> Snowflake was virtual, I think for two years and now it's great to kind of see the excitement firsthand. So it's wonderful. >> Th excitement, but also the boom and the number of customers and partners and people attending. They were saying the first, or the summit in 2019 had about 1900 attendees. And this is around 10,000. So a huge jump in a short time period. Talk a little bit about the Elation-Snowflake partnership and probably some of the acceleration that you guys have been experiencing as a Snowflake partner. >> Yeah. As a snowflake partner. I mean, Snowflake is an investor of us in Elation early last year, and we've been a partner for, for longer than that. And good news. We have been awarded Snowflake partner of the year for data governance, just earlier this week. And that's in fact, our second year in a row for winning that award. So, great news on that front as well. >> Repeat, congratulations. >> Repeat. Absolutely. And we're going to hope to make it a three-peat as well. And we've also been awarded industry competency badges in five different industries, those being financial services, healthcare, retail technology, and Median Telcom. >> Excellent. Okay. Going to right get into it. Data mesh. You guys actually have a data mesh and you've presented at the conference. So, take us back to the beginning. Why did you decide that you needed to implement something like data mesh? What was the impetus? >> Yeah. So when people think of Warner brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of HBO, you think of TNT, you think of CNN, we have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against as an example, HBO, if Game of Thrones is going on. >> So, okay. So the, the impetus was to serve those lines of business better. Actually, given that you've got these different brands, it was probably easier than most companies. Cause if you're, let's say you're a big financial services company, and now you have to decide who owns what. CNN owns its own data products, HBO. Now, do they decide within those different brands, how to distribute even further? Or is it really, how deep have you gone in that decentralization? >> That's a great question. It's a very close partnership, because there are a number of data sets, which are used by all the brands, right? You think about people browsing websites, right? You know, CNN has a website, Warner brothers has a website. So for us to ingest that data for each of the brands to ingest that data separately, that means five different ways of doing things and you know, a big environment, right? So that is where our team comes into play. We ingest a lot of the common data sets, but like I said, any unique data sets, data sets regarding theatrical as an example, you know, Warner brothers does it themselves, you know, for streaming, HBO Max, does it themselves. So we kind of operate in partnership. >> So do you have a centralized data team and also decentralized data teams, right? >> That's right. >> So I love this conversation because that was heresy 10 years ago, five years ago, even, cause that's inefficient. But you've, I presume you've found that it's actually more productive in terms of the business output, explain that dynamic. >> You know, you bring up such a good point. So I, you know, I consider myself as one of the dinosaurs who started like 20 plus years ago in this industry. And back then, we were all taught to think of the data warehouse as like a monolithic thing. And the reason for that is the technology wasn't there. The technology didn't catch up. Now, 20 years later, the technology is way ahead, right? But like, our mindset's still the same because we think of data warehouses and data platforms still as a monolithic thing. But if you really sort of remove that sort of mental barrier, if you will, and if you start thinking about, well, how do I sort of, you know, federate everything and make sure that you let folks who are building, or are closest to the customer or are building their products, let them own that data and have a partnership. The results have been amazing. And if we were only sort of doing it as a centralized team, we would not be able to do a 10th of what we do today. So it's that massive scale in, in our company as well. >> And I should have clarified, when we talk about data mesh are we talking about the implementing in practice, the octagon sort of framework, or is this sort of your own sort of terminology? >> Well, so the interesting part is four years ago, we didn't have- >> It didn't exist. >> Yeah. It didn't exist. And, and so we, our principle was very simple, right? When we started out, we said, we want to make sure that our brands are able to operate independently with some oversight and guidance from our technology teams, right? That's what we set out to do. We did that with Snowflake by design because Snowflake allows us to, you know, separate those, those brands into different accounts. So that was done by design. And then the, the magic, I think, is the Snowflake data sharing where, which allows us to sort of bring data in here once, and then share it with whoever needs it. So think about HBO Max. On HBO Max, You not only have HBO Max content, but content from CNN, from Cartoon Network, from Warner Brothers, right? All the movies, right? So to see how The Batman movie did in theaters and then on streaming, you don't need, you know, Warner brothers doesn't need to ingest the same streaming data. HBO Max does it. HBO Max shares it with Warner brothers, you know, store once, share many times, and everyone works at their own pace. >> So they're building data products. Those data products are discoverable APIs, I presume, or I guess maybe just, I guess the Snowflake cloud, but very importantly, they're governed. And that's correct, where Elation comes in? >> That's precisely where Elation comes in, is where sort of this central flexible foundation for data governance. You know, you mentioned data mesh. I think what's interesting is that it's really an answer to the bottlenecks created by centralized IT, right? There's this notion of decentralizing that the data engineers and making the data domain owners, the people that know the data the best, have them be in control of publishing the data to the data consumers. There are other popular concepts actually happening right now, as we speak, around modern data stack. Around data fabric that are also in many ways underpinned by this notion of decentralization, right? These are concepts that are underpinned by decentralization and as the pendulum swings, sort of between decentralization and centralization, as we go back and forth in the world of IT and data, there are certain constants that need to be centralized over time. And one of those I believe is very much a centralized platform for data governance. And that's certainly, I think where we come in. Would love to hear more about how you use Elation. >> Yeah. So, I mean, elation helps us sort of, as you guys say, sort of, map, the treasure map of the data, right? So for consumers to find where their data is, that's where Elation helps us. It helps us with the data cataloging, you know, storing all the metadata and, you know, users can go in, they can sort of find, you know, the data that they need and they can also find how others are using data. So it's, there's a little bit of a crowdsourcing aspect that Elation helps us to do whereby you know, you can see, okay, my peer in the other group, well, that's how they use this piece of data. So I'm not going to spend hours trying to figure this out. You're going to use the query that they use. So yeah. >> So you have a master catalog, I presume. And then each of the brands has their own sub catalogs, is that correct? >> Well, for the most part, we have that master catalog and then the brands sort of use it, you know, separately themselves. The key here is all that catalog, that catalog isn't maintained by a centralized group as well, right? It's again, maintained by the individual teams and not only in the individual teams, but the folks that are responsible for the data, right? So I talked about the concept of crowdsourcing, whoever sort of puts the data in, has to make sure that they update the catalog and make sure that the definitions are there and everything sort of in line. >> So HBO, CNN, and each have their own, sort of access to their catalog, but they feed into the master catalog. Is that the right way to think about it? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And they have their own virtual data warehouses, right? They have ownership over that? They can spin 'em up, spin 'em down as they see fit? Right? And they're governed. >> They're governed. And what's interesting is it's not just governed, right? Governance is a, is a big word. It's a bit nebulous, but what's really being enabled here is this notion of self-service as well, right? There's two big sort of rockets that need to happen at the same time in any given organization. There's this notion that you want to put trustworthy data in the hands of data consumers, while at the same time mitigating risk. And that's precisely what Elation does. >> So I want to clarify this for the audience. So there's four principles of database. This came after you guys did it. And I wonder how it aligns. Domain ownership, give data, as you were saying to the, to the domain owners who have context, data as product, you guys are building data products, and that creates two problems. How do you give people self-service infrastructure and how do you automate governance? So the first two, great. But then it creates these other problems. Does that align with your philosophy? Where's alignment? What's different? >> Yeah. Data products is exactly where we're going. And that sort of, that domain based design, that's really key as well. In our business, you think about who the customer is, as an example, right? Depending on who you ask, it's going to be, the answer might be different, you know, to the movie business, it's probably going to be the person who watches a movie in a theater. To the streaming business, to HBO Max, it's the streamer, right? To others, someone watching live CNN on their TV, right? There's yet another group. Think about all the franchising we do. So you see Batman action figures and T-shirts, and Warner brothers branded stuff in stores, that's yet another business unit. But at the end of the day, it's not a different person, it's you and me, right? We do all these things. So the domain concept, make sure that you ingest data and you bring data relevant to the context, however, not sort of making it so stringent where it cannot integrate, and then you integrate it at a higher level to create that 360. >> And it's discoverable. So the point is, I don't have to go tap Ash on the shoulder, say, how do I get this data? Is it governed? Do I have access to it? Give me the rules of it. Just, I go grab it, right? And the system computationally automates whether or not I have access to it. And it's, as you say, self-service. >> In this case, exactly right. It enables people to just search for data and know that when they find the data, whether it's trustworthy or not, through trust flags, and the like, it's doing both of those things at the same time. >> How is it an enabler of solving some of the big challenges that the media and entertainment industry is going through? We've seen so much change the last couple of years. The rising consumer expectations aren't going to go back down. They're only going to come up. We want you to serve us up content that's relevant, that's personalized, that makes sense. I'd love to understand from your perspective, Mitesh, from an industry challenges perspective, how does this technology help customers like Warner Brothers Discovery, meet business customers, where they are and reduce the volume on those challenges? >> It's a great question. And as I mentioned earlier, we had five industry competency badges that were awarded to us by Snowflake. And one of those four, Median Telcom. And the reason for that is we're helping media companies understand their audiences better, and ultimately serve up better experiences for their audiences. But we've got Ash right here that can tell us how that's happening in practice. >> Yeah, tell us. >> So I'll share a story. I always like to tell stories, right? Once once upon a time before we had Elation in place, it was like, who you knew was how you got access to the data. So if I knew you and I knew you had access to a certain kind of data and your access to the right kind of data was based on the network you had at the company- >> I had to trust you. >> Yeah. >> I might not want to give up my data. >> That's it. And so that's where Elation sort of helps us democratize it, but, you know, puts the governance and controls, right? There are certain sensitive things as well, such as viewership, such as subscriber accounts, which are very important. So making sure that the right people have access to it, that's the other problem that Elation helps us solve. >> That's precisely part of our integration with Snowflake in particular, being able to define and manage policies within Elation. Saying, you know, certain people should have access to certain rows, doing column level masking. And having those policies actually enforced at the Snowflake data layer is precisely part of our value product. >> And that's automated. >> And all that's automated. Exactly. >> Right. So I don't have to think about it. I don't have to go through the tap on their shoulder. What has been the impact, Ash, on data quality as you've pushed it down into the domains? >> That's a great question. So it has definitely improved, but data quality is a very interesting subject, because back to my example of, you know, when we started doing things, we, you know, the centralized IT team always said, well, it has to be like this, Right? And if it doesn't fit in this, then it's bad quality. Well, sometimes context changes. Businesses change, right? You have to be able to react to it quickly. So making sure that a lot of that quality is managed at the decentralized level, at the place where you have that business context, that ensures you have the most up to date quality. We're talking about media industry changing so quickly. I mean, would we have thought three years ago that people would watch a lot of these major movies on streaming services? But here's the reality, right? You have to react and, you know, having it at that level just helps you react faster. >> So data, if I play that back, data quality is not a static framework. It's flexible based on the business context and the business owners can make those adjustments, cause they own the data. >> That's it. That's exactly it. >> That's awesome. Wow. That's amazing progress that you guys have made. >> In quality, if I could just add, it also just changes depending on where you are in your data pipeline stage, right? Data, quality data observability, this is a very fast evolving space at the moment, and if I look to my left right now, I bet you I can probably see a half-dozen quality observability vendors right now. And so given that and given the fact that Elation still is sort of a central hub to find trustworthy data, we've actually announced an open data quality initiative, allowing for best-of-breed data quality vendors to integrate with the platform. So whoever they are, whatever tool folks want to use, they can use that particular tool of choice. >> And this all runs in the cloud, or is it a hybrid sort of? >> Everything is in the cloud. We're all in the cloud. And you know, again, helps us go faster. >> Let me ask you a question. I could go on forever in this topic. One of the concepts that was put forth is whether it's a Snowflake data warehouse or a data bricks, data lake, or an Oracle data warehouse, they should all be inclusive. They should just be a node on the mesh. Like, wow, that sounds good. But I haven't seen it yet. Right? I'm guessing that Snowflake and Elation enable all the self-serve, all this automated governance, and that including those other items, it's got to be a one-off at this point in time. Do you ever see you expanding that scope or is it better off to just kind of leave it into the, the Snowflake data cloud? >> It's a good question. You know, I feel like where we're at today, especially in terms of sort of technology giving us so many options, I don't think there's a one size fits all. Right? Even though we are very heavily invested in Snowflake and we use Snowflake consistently across the organization, but you could, theoretically, could have an architecture that blends those two, right? Have different types of data platforms like a teradata or an Oracle and sort of bring it all together today. We have the technology, you know, that and all sorts of things that can make sure that you query on different databases. So I don't think the technology is the problem, I think it's the organizational mindset. I think that that's what gets in the way. >> Oh, interesting. So I was going to ask you, will hybrid tables help you solve that problem? And, maybe not, what you're saying, it's the organization that owns the Oracle database saying, Hey, we have our system. It processes, it works, you know, go away. >> Yeah. Well, you know, hybrid tables I think, is a great sort of next step in Snowflake's evolution. I think it's, in my opinion, I, think it's a game changer, but yeah. I mean, they can still exist. You could do hybrid tables right on Snowflake, or you could, you know, you could kind of coexist as well. >> Yeah. But, do you have a thought on this? >> Yeah, I do. I mean, we're always going to live in a time where you've got data distributed in throughout the organization and around the globe. And that could be even if you're all in on Snowflake, you could have data in Snowflake here, you could have data in Snowflake in EMEA and Europe somewhere. It could be anywhere. By the same token you might be using. Every organization is using on-premises systems. They have data, they naturally have data everywhere. And so, you know, this one solution to this is really centralizing, as I mentioned, not just governance, but also metadata about all of the data in your organization so that you can enable people to search and find and discover trustworthy data no matter where it is in your organization. >> Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, if you have the data about the data, then you can, you can treat these independent nodes. That's just that. Right? And maybe there's some advantages of putting it all in the Snowflake cloud, but to your point, organizationally, that's just not feasible. The whole, unfortunately, sorry, Snowflake, all the world's data is not going to go into Snowflake, but they play a key role in accelerating, what I'm hearing, your vision of data mesh. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think going forward in the future, we have to start thinking about data platforms as just one place where you sort of dump all the data. That's where the mesh concept comes in. It is going to be a mesh. It's going to be distributed and organizations have to be okay with that. And they have to embrace the tools. I mean, you know, Facebook developed a tool called Presto many years ago that that helps them solve exactly the same problem. So I think the technology is there. I think the organizational mindset needs to evolve. >> Yeah. Definitely. >> Culture. Culture is one of the hardest things to change. >> Exactly. >> Guys, this was a masterclass in data mesh, I think. Thank you so much for coming on talking. >> We appreciate it. Thank you so much. >> Of course. What Elation is doing with Snowflake and with Warner Brothers Discovery, Keep that content coming. I got a lot of stuff I got to catch up on watching. >> Sounds good. Thank you for having us. >> Thanks guys. >> Thanks, you guys. >> For Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from Snowflake Summit '22. We'll be back after a short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, welcome back everyone to theCUBE's coverage here at re:MARS. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. It's the event where it's part of the "re:" series: re:MARS, re:Inforce, re:Invent. MARS stands for machine learning, automation, robotics, and space. And a lot of conversation is all about AI machine learning. This one's about AI and business transformation. We've got Stepan Pushkarev CTO, CEO, Co-Founder of Provectus. Welcome to theCUBE. And Russ Lamb, eCommerce Retail Data Engineering Lead at PepsiCo, customer story. Gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Great to be here, John. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> I love the practical customer stories because it brings everything to life. This show is about the future, but it's got all the things we want, we love: machine learning, robotics, automation. If you're in DevOps, or you're in data engineering, this is the world of automation. So what's the relationship? You guys, you're a customer. Talk about the relationship between you guys. >> Sure, sure. Provectus as a whole is a professional services firm, premier, a AWS partner, specializing in machine learning, data, DevOps. PepsiCo is our customer, our marquee customer, lovely customer. So happy to jointly present at this re:Invent, sorry, re:MARS. Anyway, Russ... >> I made that mistake earlier, by the way, 'cause re:Invent's always on the tip of my tongue and re:MARS is just, I'm not used to it yet, but I'm getting there. Talk about what are you guys working together on? >> Well, I mean, we work with Provectus in a lot of ways. They really helped us get started within our e-commerce division with AWS, provided a lot of expertise in that regard and, you know, just hands-on experience. >> We were talking before we came on camera, you guys just had another talk and how it's all future and kind of get back to reality, Earth. >> Russ: Get back to Earth. >> If we're on earth still. We're not on Mars yet, or the moon. You know, AI's kind of got a future, but it does give a tell sign to what's coming, industrial change, full transformation, 'cause cloud does the back office. You got data centers. Now you've got cloud going to the edge with industrial spaces, the ultimate poster child of edge and automation safety. But at the end of the day, we're still in the real world. Now people got to run businesses. And I think, you know, having you here is interesting. So I have to ask you, you know, as you look at the technology, you got to see AI everywhere. And the theme here, to me, that I see is the inflection point driving all this future robotics change, that everyone's been waiting for by the way, but it's like been in movies and in novels, is the machine learning and AI as the tipping point. This is key. And now you're here integrating AI into your company. Tell us your story. >> Well, I think that every enterprise is going to need more machine learning, more, you know, AI or data science. And that's the journey that we're on right now. And we've come a long way in the past six years, particularly with our e-commerce division, it's a really data rich environment. So, you know, going from brick and mortar, you know, delivering to restaurants, vending machines and stuff, it's a whole different world when you're, people are ordering on Amazon every couple minutes, or seconds even, our products. But they, being able to track all that... >> Can you scope the problem statement and the opportunity? Because if I just kind of just, again, I'm not, you're in, it's your company, you're in the weeds, you're at the data, you're everything, But it just seems me, the world's now more integration, more different data sources. You've got suppliers, they have their different IT back ends. Some are in the cloud, some aren't in the cloud. This is, like, a hard problem when you want to bring data together. I mean, API certainly help, but can you scope the problem, and, like, what we're talking about here? >> Well, we've got so many different sources of data now, right? So we used to be relying on a couple of aggregators who would pull all this data for us and hand us an aggregated view of things. But now we're able to partner with different retailers and get detail, granular information about transactions, orders. And it's just changed the game, changed the landscape from just, like, getting a rough view, to seeing the nuts and bolts and, like, all the moving parts. >> Yeah, and you see in data engineering much more tied into like cloud scale. Then you got the data scientists, more the democratization application and enablement. So I got to ask, how did you guys connect? What was the problem statement? How did you guys, did you have smoke and fire? You came in solved the problem? Was it a growth thing? How did this, how did you guys connect as a customer with Provectus? >> Yeah, I can elaborate on that. So we were in the very beginning of that journey when there was, like, just a few people in this new startup, let's call it startup within PepsiCo. >> John: Yeah. >> Calling like a, it's not only e-commerce, it was a huge belief from the top management that it's going to bring tremendous value to the enterprise. So there was no single use case, "Hey, do this and you're going to get that." So it's a huge belief that e-commerce is the future. Some industry trends like from brand-centric to consumer-centric. So brand, product-centric. Amazon has the mission to build the most customer-centric customer company. And I believe that success, it gets a lot of enterprises are being influenced by that success. So I remember that time, PepsiCo had a huge belief. We started building just from scratch, figuring out what does the business need? What are the business use cases? We have not started with the IT. We have not started with this very complicated migrations, modernizations. >> John: So clean sheet of paper. >> Yeah. >> From scratch. >> From scratch. >> And so you got the green light. >> Yeah. >> And the leadership threw the holy water on that and said, "Hey, we'll do this."? >> That's exactly what happened. It was from the top down. The CEO kind of set aside the e-commerce vision as kind of being able to, in a rapidly evolving business place like e-commerce, it's a growing field. Not everybody's figured it out yet, but to be able to change quickly, right? The business needs to change quickly. The technology needs to change quickly. And that's what we're doing here. >> So this is interesting. A lot of companies don't have that, actually, luxury. I mean, it's still more fun because the tools are available now that all the hyper scales built on their own. I mean, back in the day, 10 years ago, they had to build it all, Facebook. You didn't know, I had people on here from Pinterest and other companies. They had to build all of that from scratch. Now cloud's here. So how did you guys do this? What was the playbook? Take us through the AI because it sounds like the AI is core, you know, belief principle of the whole entire system. What did you guys do? Take me through the journey there. >> Yeah. Beyond management decisions, strategic decisions that has been made as a separate startup, whatever- >> John: That's great. >> So some practical, tactical. So it may sound like a cliche, but it's a huge thing because I work with many enterprises and this, like, "center of excellence" that does a nice technology stuff and then looks for the budget on the different business units. It just doesn't go anywhere. It could take you forever to modernize. >> We call that the Game of Thrones environment. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Nothing ever gets done 'till it blows up at the end. >> Here, these guys, and I have to admit, I don't want to steal their thunder. I just want to emphasize it as an external person. These guys just made it so differently. >> John: Yeah. >> They even physically sat in a different office in a WeWork co-working and built that business from scratch. >> That's what Andy Jackson talked about two years ago. And if you look at some of the big successes on AWS, Capital One, all the big, Goldman Sachs. The leadership, real commitment, not like BS, like total commitment says, "Go." But enough rope to give you some room, right? >> Yeah. I think that's the thing is, there was always an IT presence, right, overseeing what we were doing within e-commerce, but we had a lot of freedoms to make design choices, technology choices, and really accelerate the business, focus on those use cases where we could make a big impact with a technology choice. >> Take me through the stages of the AI transformation. What are some of the use cases and specific tactics you guys executed on? >> Well, I think that the supply chain, which I think is a hot topic right now, but that was one use case where we're using, like, data real time, real time data to inform our sales projections and delivery logistics. But also our marketing return on investment, I feel like that was a really interesting, complex problem to solve using machine learning, Because there's so much data that we needed to process in terms of countries, territories, products, like where do you spend your limited marketing budget when you have so many choices, and, using machine learning, boil that all down to, you know, this is the optimal choice, right now. >> What were some of the challenges and how did you overcome them in the early days to get things set up, 'cause it takes a lot of energy to get it going, to get the models. What were some of the challenges and how did you overcome them? >> Well, I think some of it was expertise, right? Like having a partner like Provectus and Stepan really helped because they could guide us, Stepan could guide us, give his expertise and what he knows in terms of what he's seen to our budding and growing business. >> And what were the things that you guys saw that you contributed on? And was there anything new that you had to do together? >> Yeah, so yeah. First of all, just a very practical tip. Yes, start with the use cases. Clearly talk to the business and say, "Hey, these are the list of the use cases" and prioritize them. So not with IT, not with technology, not with the migration thing. Don't touch anything on legacy systems. Second, get data in. So you may have your legacy systems or some other third party systems that you work with. There's no AI without data. Get all the pipelines, get data. Quickly boat strap the data lake house. Put all the pipelines, all the governance in place. And yeah, literally took us three months to get up and running. And we started delivering first analytical reports. It's just to have something back to business and keep going. >> By the way, that's huge, speed. I mean, this is speed. You go back and had that baggage of IT and the old antiquated systems, you'd be dragging probably months. Right? >> It's years, years. Imagine you should migrate SAP to the cloud first. No, you don't do don't need to do that. >> Pipeline. >> Just get data. I need data. >> Stream that data. All right, where are we now? When did you guys start? I want to get just going to timeline my head 'cause I heard three months. Where are we now? You guys threw it. Now you have impact. You have, you have results. >> Yeah. I mean that for our marketing ROI engine, we've built it and it's developed within e-commerce, but we've started to spread it throughout the organization now. So it's not just about the digital and the e-commerce space. We're deploying it to, you know, regionally to other, to Europe, to Latin America, other divisions within PepsiCo. And it's just grown exponentially. >> So you have scale to it right now? >> Yeah. Well- >> How far are you in now? What, how many years, months, days? >> E-commerce, the division was created six years ago, which is, so we've had some time to develop this, our machine learning capabilities and this use case particular, but it's increasingly relevant and expansion is happening as we speak. >> What are you most proud of? You look back at the impact. What are you most proud of? >> I think the relationship we built with the people, you know, who use our technology, right. Just seeing the impact is what makes me proud. >> Can you give an example without revealing any confidential information? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there was an example from my talk about, I was approached recently by our sales team. They were having difficulty with supply chain, monitoring our fill rate of our top brands with these retailers. And they come up to me, they have this problem. They're like, "How do we solve it?" So we work together to find a data source, just start getting that data in the hands of people who can use it within days. You know, not talking like a long time. Bring that data into our data warehouse, and then surface the data in a tool they can use, you know, within a matter of a week or two. >> I mean, the transformation is just incredible. In fact, we were talking on theCUBE earlier today around, you know, data warehouses in the cloud, data meshes of different pros and cons. And the theme that came out of that conversation was data's a product now. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And what you're kind of describing is, just gimme the product or find it. >> Russ: Right. >> And bring it in with everything else. And there's some, you know, cleaning and stuff people do if they have issues with that. But, if not, it's just bring it in, right? It's a product. >> Well, especially with the data exchanges now. AWS has a data exchange and this, I think, is the future of data and what's possible with data because you don't have to start from, okay, I've got this Excel file somebody's been working with on their desktop. This is a, someone's taken that file, put it into a warehouse or a data model, and then they can share it with you. >> John: So are you happy with these guys? >> Absolutely, yeah. >> You're actually telling the story. What was the biggest impact that they did? Was it partnering? Was it writing code, bringing development in, counseling, all the above, managed services? What? >> I think the biggest impact was the idea, you know, like being able to bring ideas to the table and not just, you know, ask us what we want, right? Like I think Provectus is a true partner and was able to share that sort of expertise with us. >> You know, Andy Jackson, whenever I interview on theCUBE, he's now in charge of all Amazon. But when he was at (inaudible). He always had to use their learnings, get the learnings out. What was the learnings you look back now and say, Hey, those were tough times. We overcome them. We stopped, we started, we iterated, we kept moving forward. What was the big learning as you look back, some of the key success points, maybe some failures that you overcome. What was the big learnings that you could share with folks out there now that are in the same situation where they're saying, "Hey, I'd rather start from scratch and do a reset." >> Yeah. So with that in particular, yes, we started this like sort of startup within the enterprise, but now we've got to integrate, right? It's been six years and e-commerce is now sharing our data with the rest of the organization. How do we do that, right? There's an enterprise solution, and we've got this scrappy or, I mean, not scrappy anymore, but we've got our own, you know, way of doing. >> Kind of boot strap. I mean, you were kind of given charter. It's a start up within a big company, I mean- >> But our data platform now is robust, and it's one of the best I've seen. But how do we now get those systems to talk? And I think Provectus has came to us with, "Here, there's this idea called data mesh, where you can, you know, have these two independent platforms, but share the data in a centralized way. >> So you guys are obviously have a data mesh in place, big part of the architecture? >> So it is in progress, but we know the next step. So we know the next step. We know the next two steps, what we're going to do, what we need to do to make it really, to have that common method, data layer. between different data products within organization, different locations, different business units. So they can start talking to each other through the data and have specific escalates on the data. And yeah. >> It's smart because I think one of the things that people, I think, I'd love to get your reaction to this is that we've been telling the story for many, many years, you have horizontally scalable cloud and vertically specialized domain solutions, you need machine learning that's smart, but you need a lot of data to help it. And that's not, a new architecture, that's a data plane, it's control plane, but now everyone goes, "Okay, let's do silos." And they forget the scale side. And then they go, "Wait a minute." You know, "I'm not going to share it." And so you have this new debate of, and I want to own my own data. So the data layer becomes an interesting conversation. >> Yeah, yes. Meta data. >> Yeah. So what, how do you guys see that? Because this becomes a super important kind of decision point architecturally. >> I mean, my take is that there has to be some, there will always be domains, right? Everyone, like there's only so much that you can find commonality across, like in industry, for example. But there will always be a data owner. And, you know, kind of like what happened with rush to APIs, how that enabled microservices within applications and being sharing in a standardized way, I think something like that has to happen in the data space. So it's not a monolithic data warehouse, it's- >> You know, the other thing I want to ask you guys both, if you don't mind commenting while I got you here, 'cause you're both experts. >> We just did a showcase on data programmability. Kind of a radical idea, but like data as code, we called it. >> Oh yeah. >> And so if data's a product and you're acting on, you've got an architecture and system set up, you got to might code it's programmable. You need you're coding with data. Data becomes like a part of the development process. What do you guys think of when you hear data as code and data being programmable? >> Yeah, it's a interesting, so yeah, first of all, I think Russ can elaborate on that, Data engineering is also software engineering. Machine learning engineering is a software. At the end of the day, it's all product. So we can use different terms and buzz words for that but this is what we have at the end of the day. So having the data, well I will use another buzz word, but in terms of the headless architecture- >> Yes. >> When you have a nice SDK, nice API, but you can manipulate with the data as your programming object to build reach applications for your users, and give it, and share not as just a table in Redshift or a bunch of CSV files in S3 bucket, but share it as a programmable thing that you can work with. >> Data as code. >> Yeah. This is- >> Infrastructure code was a revolution for DevOps, but it's not AI Ops so it's something different. It's really it's data engineering. It's programming. >> Yeah. This is the way to deliver data to your consumers. So there are different ways you can show it on a dashboard. You can show it, you can expose it as an API, or you can give it as an object, programmable interface. >> So now you're set up with a data architecture that's extensible 'cause that's the goal. You don't want to foreclose. You must think about that must keep you up at night. What's going to foreclose that benefit? 'Cause there's more coming. Right? >> Absolutely. There's always more coming. And I think that's why it's important to have that robust data platform to work from. And yeah, as Stepan mentioned, I'm a big believer in data engineering as software engineering. It's not some like it's not completely separate. You have to follow the best practices software engineers practice. And, you know, really think about maintainability and scalability. >> You know, we were riffing about how cloud had the SRE managing all those servers. One person, data engineering has a many, a one to many relationships too. You got a lot going on. It's not managing a database. It's millions of data points and data opportunity. So gentlemen, thanks for coming on theCUBE. I really appreciate it. And thanks for telling the story of Pepsi. >> Of course, >> And great conversation. Congratulations on this great customer. And thanks for >> coming on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thank you. Thanks, Russ, would you like to wrap it up with the pantry shops story? >> Oh, yeah! I think it will just be a super relevant evidence of the agility and speed and some real world applicable >> Let's go. Close us out. >> So when, when the pandemic happened and there were lockdowns everywhere, people started buying things online. And we noticed this and got a challenge from our direct to consumer team saying, "Look, we need a storefront to be able to sell to our consumers, and we've got 30 days to do it." We need to be able to work fast. And so we built not just a website, but like everything that behind it, the logistics of supply chain aspects, the data platform. And we didn't just build one. We built two. We got pantry shop.com and snacks.com, within 30 days. >> Good domains! >> The domain broker was happy on that one. Well continue the story. >> Yeah, yeah. So I feel like that the agility that's required for that kind of thing and the like the planning to be able to scale from just, you know, an idea to something that people can use every day. And, and that's, I think.- >> And you know, that's a great point too, that shows if you're in the cloud, you're doing the work you're prepared for anything. The pandemic was the true test for who was ready because it was unforeseen force majeure. It was just like here it comes and the people who were in the cloud had that set up, could move quickly. The ones that couldn't. >> Exactly. >> We know what happened. >> And I would like to echo this. So they have built not just a website, they have built the whole business line within, and launched that successfully to production. That includes sales, marketing, supply chain, e-commerce, aside within 30 days. And that's just a role model that could be used by other enterprises. >> Yeah. And it was not possible without, first of all, right culture. And second, without cloud Amazon elasticity and all the tools that we have in place. >> Well, the right architecture allows for scale. That's the whole, I mean, you did everything right at the architecture that's scale. I mean, you're scaling. >> And we empower our engineers to make those choices, right. We're not, like, super bureaucratic where every decision has to be approved by the manager or the managers manager. The engineers have the power to just make good decisions, and that's how we move fast. >> That's exactly the future right there. And this is what it's all about. Reliability, scale agility, the ability to react and have applications roll out on top of it without long timeframes. Congratulations. Thanks for being on theCUBE. Appreciate it. All right. >> Thank you. >> Okay, you're watching theCUBE here at re:MARS 2020, I'm John Furrier. Stay tuned. We've got more coverage coming after this short break. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to theCUBE's continuing coverage of Snowflake Summit '22 live from Caesar's Forum in Las Vegas. I'm Lisa Martin, my cohost Dave Vellante, we've been here the last day and a half unpacking a lot of news, a lot of announcements, talking with customers and partners, and we have another great session coming for you next. We've got a customer and a partner talking tech and data mash. Please welcome Mitesh Shah, VP in market strategy at Elation. >> Great to be here. >> and Ash Naseer great, to have you, senior director of data engineering at Warner Brothers Discovery. Welcome guys. >> Thank you for having me. >> It's great to be back in person and to be able to really get to see and feel and touch this technology, isn't it? >> Yeah, it is. I mean two years or so. Yeah. Great to feel the energy in the conference center. >> Yeah. >> Snowflake was virtual, I think for two years and now it's great to kind of see the excitement firsthand. So it's wonderful. >> Th excitement, but also the boom and the number of customers and partners and people attending. They were saying the first, or the summit in 2019 had about 1900 attendees. And this is around 10,000. So a huge jump in a short time period. Talk a little bit about the Elation-Snowflake partnership and probably some of the acceleration that you guys have been experiencing as a Snowflake partner. >> Yeah. As a snowflake partner. I mean, Snowflake is an investor of us in Elation early last year, and we've been a partner for, for longer than that. And good news. We have been awarded Snowflake partner of the year for data governance, just earlier this week. And that's in fact, our second year in a row for winning that award. So, great news on that front as well. >> Repeat, congratulations. >> Repeat. Absolutely. And we're going to hope to make it a three-peat as well. And we've also been awarded industry competency badges in five different industries, those being financial services, healthcare, retail technology, and Median Telcom. >> Excellent. Okay. Going to right get into it. Data mesh. You guys actually have a data mesh and you've presented at the conference. So, take us back to the beginning. Why did you decide that you needed to implement something like data mesh? What was the impetus? >> Yeah. So when people think of Warner brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of HBO, you think of TNT, you think of CNN, we have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against as an example, HBO, if Game of Thrones is going on. >> So, okay. So the, the impetus was to serve those lines of business better. Actually, given that you've got these different brands, it was probably easier than most companies. Cause if you're, let's say you're a big financial services company, and now you have to decide who owns what. CNN owns its own data products, HBO. Now, do they decide within those different brands, how to distribute even further? Or is it really, how deep have you gone in that decentralization? >> That's a great question. It's a very close partnership, because there are a number of data sets, which are used by all the brands, right? You think about people browsing websites, right? You know, CNN has a website, Warner brothers has a website. So for us to ingest that data for each of the brands to ingest that data separately, that means five different ways of doing things and you know, a big environment, right? So that is where our team comes into play. We ingest a lot of the common data sets, but like I said, any unique data sets, data sets regarding theatrical as an example, you know, Warner brothers does it themselves, you know, for streaming, HBO Max, does it themselves. So we kind of operate in partnership. >> So do you have a centralized data team and also decentralized data teams, right? >> That's right. >> So I love this conversation because that was heresy 10 years ago, five years ago, even, cause that's inefficient. But you've, I presume you've found that it's actually more productive in terms of the business output, explain that dynamic. >> You know, you bring up such a good point. So I, you know, I consider myself as one of the dinosaurs who started like 20 plus years ago in this industry. And back then, we were all taught to think of the data warehouse as like a monolithic thing. And the reason for that is the technology wasn't there. The technology didn't catch up. Now, 20 years later, the technology is way ahead, right? But like, our mindset's still the same because we think of data warehouses and data platforms still as a monolithic thing. But if you really sort of remove that sort of mental barrier, if you will, and if you start thinking about, well, how do I sort of, you know, federate everything and make sure that you let folks who are building, or are closest to the customer or are building their products, let them own that data and have a partnership. The results have been amazing. And if we were only sort of doing it as a centralized team, we would not be able to do a 10th of what we do today. So it's that massive scale in, in our company as well. >> And I should have clarified, when we talk about data mesh are we talking about the implementing in practice, the octagon sort of framework, or is this sort of your own sort of terminology? >> Well, so the interesting part is four years ago, we didn't have- >> It didn't exist. >> Yeah. It didn't exist. And, and so we, our principle was very simple, right? When we started out, we said, we want to make sure that our brands are able to operate independently with some oversight and guidance from our technology teams, right? That's what we set out to do. We did that with Snowflake by design because Snowflake allows us to, you know, separate those, those brands into different accounts. So that was done by design. And then the, the magic, I think, is the Snowflake data sharing where, which allows us to sort of bring data in here once, and then share it with whoever needs it. So think about HBO Max. On HBO Max, You not only have HBO Max content, but content from CNN, from Cartoon Network, from Warner Brothers, right? All the movies, right? So to see how The Batman movie did in theaters and then on streaming, you don't need, you know, Warner brothers doesn't need to ingest the same streaming data. HBO Max does it. HBO Max shares it with Warner brothers, you know, store once, share many times, and everyone works at their own pace. >> So they're building data products. Those data products are discoverable APIs, I presume, or I guess maybe just, I guess the Snowflake cloud, but very importantly, they're governed. And that's correct, where Elation comes in? >> That's precisely where Elation comes in, is where sort of this central flexible foundation for data governance. You know, you mentioned data mesh. I think what's interesting is that it's really an answer to the bottlenecks created by centralized IT, right? There's this notion of decentralizing that the data engineers and making the data domain owners, the people that know the data the best, have them be in control of publishing the data to the data consumers. There are other popular concepts actually happening right now, as we speak, around modern data stack. Around data fabric that are also in many ways underpinned by this notion of decentralization, right? These are concepts that are underpinned by decentralization and as the pendulum swings, sort of between decentralization and centralization, as we go back and forth in the world of IT and data, there are certain constants that need to be centralized over time. And one of those I believe is very much a centralized platform for data governance. And that's certainly, I think where we come in. Would love to hear more about how you use Elation. >> Yeah. So, I mean, elation helps us sort of, as you guys say, sort of, map, the treasure map of the data, right? So for consumers to find where their data is, that's where Elation helps us. It helps us with the data cataloging, you know, storing all the metadata and, you know, users can go in, they can sort of find, you know, the data that they need and they can also find how others are using data. So it's, there's a little bit of a crowdsourcing aspect that Elation helps us to do whereby you know, you can see, okay, my peer in the other group, well, that's how they use this piece of data. So I'm not going to spend hours trying to figure this out. You're going to use the query that they use. So yeah. >> So you have a master catalog, I presume. And then each of the brands has their own sub catalogs, is that correct? >> Well, for the most part, we have that master catalog and then the brands sort of use it, you know, separately themselves. The key here is all that catalog, that catalog isn't maintained by a centralized group as well, right? It's again, maintained by the individual teams and not only in the individual teams, but the folks that are responsible for the data, right? So I talked about the concept of crowdsourcing, whoever sort of puts the data in, has to make sure that they update the catalog and make sure that the definitions are there and everything sort of in line. >> So HBO, CNN, and each have their own, sort of access to their catalog, but they feed into the master catalog. Is that the right way to think about it? >> Yeah. >> Okay. And they have their own virtual data warehouses, right? They have ownership over that? They can spin 'em up, spin 'em down as they see fit? Right? And they're governed. >> They're governed. And what's interesting is it's not just governed, right? Governance is a, is a big word. It's a bit nebulous, but what's really being enabled here is this notion of self-service as well, right? There's two big sort of rockets that need to happen at the same time in any given organization. There's this notion that you want to put trustworthy data in the hands of data consumers, while at the same time mitigating risk. And that's precisely what Elation does. >> So I want to clarify this for the audience. So there's four principles of database. This came after you guys did it. And I wonder how it aligns. Domain ownership, give data, as you were saying to the, to the domain owners who have context, data as product, you guys are building data products, and that creates two problems. How do you give people self-service infrastructure and how do you automate governance? So the first two, great. But then it creates these other problems. Does that align with your philosophy? Where's alignment? What's different? >> Yeah. Data products is exactly where we're going. And that sort of, that domain based design, that's really key as well. In our business, you think about who the customer is, as an example, right? Depending on who you ask, it's going to be, the answer might be different, you know, to the movie business, it's probably going to be the person who watches a movie in a theater. To the streaming business, to HBO Max, it's the streamer, right? To others, someone watching live CNN on their TV, right? There's yet another group. Think about all the franchising we do. So you see Batman action figures and T-shirts, and Warner brothers branded stuff in stores, that's yet another business unit. But at the end of the day, it's not a different person, it's you and me, right? We do all these things. So the domain concept, make sure that you ingest data and you bring data relevant to the context, however, not sort of making it so stringent where it cannot integrate, and then you integrate it at a higher level to create that 360. >> And it's discoverable. So the point is, I don't have to go tap Ash on the shoulder, say, how do I get this data? Is it governed? Do I have access to it? Give me the rules of it. Just, I go grab it, right? And the system computationally automates whether or not I have access to it. And it's, as you say, self-service. >> In this case, exactly right. It enables people to just search for data and know that when they find the data, whether it's trustworthy or not, through trust flags, and the like, it's doing both of those things at the same time. >> How is it an enabler of solving some of the big challenges that the media and entertainment industry is going through? We've seen so much change the last couple of years. The rising consumer expectations aren't going to go back down. They're only going to come up. We want you to serve us up content that's relevant, that's personalized, that makes sense. I'd love to understand from your perspective, Mitesh, from an industry challenges perspective, how does this technology help customers like Warner Brothers Discovery, meet business customers, where they are and reduce the volume on those challenges? >> It's a great question. And as I mentioned earlier, we had five industry competency badges that were awarded to us by Snowflake. And one of those four, Median Telcom. And the reason for that is we're helping media companies understand their audiences better, and ultimately serve up better experiences for their audiences. But we've got Ash right here that can tell us how that's happening in practice. >> Yeah, tell us. >> So I'll share a story. I always like to tell stories, right? Once once upon a time before we had Elation in place, it was like, who you knew was how you got access to the data. So if I knew you and I knew you had access to a certain kind of data and your access to the right kind of data was based on the network you had at the company- >> I had to trust you. >> Yeah. >> I might not want to give up my data. >> That's it. And so that's where Elation sort of helps us democratize it, but, you know, puts the governance and controls, right? There are certain sensitive things as well, such as viewership, such as subscriber accounts, which are very important. So making sure that the right people have access to it, that's the other problem that Elation helps us solve. >> That's precisely part of our integration with Snowflake in particular, being able to define and manage policies within Elation. Saying, you know, certain people should have access to certain rows, doing column level masking. And having those policies actually enforced at the Snowflake data layer is precisely part of our value product. >> And that's automated. >> And all that's automated. Exactly. >> Right. So I don't have to think about it. I don't have to go through the tap on their shoulder. What has been the impact, Ash, on data quality as you've pushed it down into the domains? >> That's a great question. So it has definitely improved, but data quality is a very interesting subject, because back to my example of, you know, when we started doing things, we, you know, the centralized IT team always said, well, it has to be like this, Right? And if it doesn't fit in this, then it's bad quality. Well, sometimes context changes. Businesses change, right? You have to be able to react to it quickly. So making sure that a lot of that quality is managed at the decentralized level, at the place where you have that business context, that ensures you have the most up to date quality. We're talking about media industry changing so quickly. I mean, would we have thought three years ago that people would watch a lot of these major movies on streaming services? But here's the reality, right? You have to react and, you know, having it at that level just helps you react faster. >> So data, if I play that back, data quality is not a static framework. It's flexible based on the business context and the business owners can make those adjustments, cause they own the data. >> That's it. That's exactly it. >> That's awesome. Wow. That's amazing progress that you guys have made. >> In quality, if I could just add, it also just changes depending on where you are in your data pipeline stage, right? Data, quality data observability, this is a very fast evolving space at the moment, and if I look to my left right now, I bet you I can probably see a half-dozen quality observability vendors right now. And so given that and given the fact that Elation still is sort of a central hub to find trustworthy data, we've actually announced an open data quality initiative, allowing for best-of-breed data quality vendors to integrate with the platform. So whoever they are, whatever tool folks want to use, they can use that particular tool of choice. >> And this all runs in the cloud, or is it a hybrid sort of? >> Everything is in the cloud. We're all in the cloud. And you know, again, helps us go faster. >> Let me ask you a question. I could go on forever in this topic. One of the concepts that was put forth is whether it's a Snowflake data warehouse or a data bricks, data lake, or an Oracle data warehouse, they should all be inclusive. They should just be a node on the mesh. Like, wow, that sounds good. But I haven't seen it yet. Right? I'm guessing that Snowflake and Elation enable all the self-serve, all this automated governance, and that including those other items, it's got to be a one-off at this point in time. Do you ever see you expanding that scope or is it better off to just kind of leave it into the, the Snowflake data cloud? >> It's a good question. You know, I feel like where we're at today, especially in terms of sort of technology giving us so many options, I don't think there's a one size fits all. Right? Even though we are very heavily invested in Snowflake and we use Snowflake consistently across the organization, but you could, theoretically, could have an architecture that blends those two, right? Have different types of data platforms like a teradata or an Oracle and sort of bring it all together today. We have the technology, you know, that and all sorts of things that can make sure that you query on different databases. So I don't think the technology is the problem, I think it's the organizational mindset. I think that that's what gets in the way. >> Oh, interesting. So I was going to ask you, will hybrid tables help you solve that problem? And, maybe not, what you're saying, it's the organization that owns the Oracle database saying, Hey, we have our system. It processes, it works, you know, go away. >> Yeah. Well, you know, hybrid tables I think, is a great sort of next step in Snowflake's evolution. I think it's, in my opinion, I, think it's a game changer, but yeah. I mean, they can still exist. You could do hybrid tables right on Snowflake, or you could, you know, you could kind of coexist as well. >> Yeah. But, do you have a thought on this? >> Yeah, I do. I mean, we're always going to live in a time where you've got data distributed in throughout the organization and around the globe. And that could be even if you're all in on Snowflake, you could have data in Snowflake here, you could have data in Snowflake in EMEA and Europe somewhere. It could be anywhere. By the same token you might be using. Every organization is using on-premises systems. They have data, they naturally have data everywhere. And so, you know, this one solution to this is really centralizing, as I mentioned, not just governance, but also metadata about all of the data in your organization so that you can enable people to search and find and discover trustworthy data no matter where it is in your organization. >> Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, if you have the data about the data, then you can, you can treat these independent nodes. That's just that. Right? And maybe there's some advantages of putting it all in the Snowflake cloud, but to your point, organizationally, that's just not feasible. The whole, unfortunately, sorry, Snowflake, all the world's data is not going to go into Snowflake, but they play a key role in accelerating, what I'm hearing, your vision of data mesh. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think going forward in the future, we have to start thinking about data platforms as just one place where you sort of dump all the data. That's where the mesh concept comes in. It is going to be a mesh. It's going to be distributed and organizations have to be okay with that. And they have to embrace the tools. I mean, you know, Facebook developed a tool called Presto many years ago that that helps them solve exactly the same problem. So I think the technology is there. I think the organizational mindset needs to evolve. >> Yeah. Definitely. >> Culture. Culture is one of the hardest things to change. >> Exactly. >> Guys, this was a masterclass in data mesh, I think. Thank you so much for coming on talking. >> We appreciate it. Thank you so much. >> Of course. What Elation is doing with Snowflake and with Warner Brothers Discovery, Keep that content coming. I got a lot of stuff I got to catch up on watching. >> Sounds good. Thank you for having us. >> Thanks guys. >> Thanks, you guys. >> For Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from Snowflake Summit '22. We'll be back after a short break. (upbeat music)

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE in ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Cisco is a company at the crossroads. It's transitioning from a high margin hardware business to a software subscription-based model, which also should be high margin through both organic moves and targeted acquisitions. It's doing so in the context of massive macro shifts to digital in the cloud. We believe Cisco's dominant position in networking combined with a large market opportunity and a strong track record of earning customer trust, put the company in a good position to capitalize on cloud momentum. However, there are clear challenges ahead for Cisco, not the least of which is the growing complexity of its portfolio, a large legacy business, and the mandate to maintain its higher profitability profile as it transitions into a new business model. Hello and welcome to this week's Wiki-bond cube insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we welcome in Zeus Kerravala, who's the founder and principal analyst at ZK Research, long time Cisco watcher who together with me crafted the premise of today's session. Zeus, great to see you welcome to the program. >> Thanks Dave. It's always a pleasure to be with you guys. >> Okay, here's what we're going to talk about today, set the agenda. The catalyst for this session, Zeus and I attended Cisco's financial analyst day. We received a day and a half of firehose presentations, drill downs, interactions, Q and A with Cisco execs and one key customer. So we're going to share our takeaways from these sessions and add our additional thoughts. Now, in particular, we're going to talk about Cisco's TAM, its transformation to a subscription-based model, and how we see that evolving. As always, we're going to bring in some ETR spending data for context and get Zeus' take on what that tells us. And we'll end with a summary of Cisco's cloud strategy and outlook for how it could win in the cloud. So let's talk about Cisco's sort of structure and TAM opportunities. First, Zeus, Cisco has four main lines of business where it's organized it's executives around sort of four product areas. And it's got a large service component as well. Network equipment, SP routing, data center, collaboration that security, and as I say services, that's not necessarily how it's going to market, but that's kind of the way it organizes its ELT, its executive leadership team. >> Yeah, the in fact, the ELT has been organized around those products, as you said. It used to report to the street three product segments, infrastructure platforms, which was by far the biggest, it was all their networking equipment, then applications, and then security. Now it's moved to five new segments, secure agile networks, hybrid work, end to end security, internet for the future and optimized app experiences. And I think what Cisco's trying to do is align their, the way they report along the lines of the way customers buy. 'Cause I think before, you know, they had a very simplistic model before. It was just infrastructure, apps, and security. The ELT is organized around product roadmap and the product innovation, but that's not necessarily the way customers purchase things and so, purchase things so I think they've tried to change things a little bit there. When you look at those segments though, you know, by, it's interesting. They're all big, right? So, by far the biggest distilled networking, which is almost a hundred billion dollar TAM as they reported and they have it growing a about a 9% CAGR as reported by other analyst firms. And when you think about how mature networking is Dave, the fact that that's still growing at high single digit CAGR is still pretty remarkable. So I think that's one of those things that, you know, watchers of Cisco historically have been calling for the network to be commoditized for decades. For as long as I've been watching Cisco, we've been, people have been waiting for the network to be commoditized. My thesis has always been, if you can drive enough innovation into things, you can stave off commoditization and that's what they've done. But that's really the anchor for them to sell all their other products, some of which are higher margin, some which are a little bit sore, but they're all good high margin businesses to your point. >> Awesome. We're going to dig into that. So, so they flattened the organization when Geckler left. You've got Todd Nightingale, Jonathan Davidson, Liz Centoni, and Jeetu Patel who we heard from and we'll make some comments on what we heard from them. One of the big takeaways at the financial analysts meeting was on the TAM, as you just mentioned. Liz Centoni who also is heavily involved in strategy and the CFO Scott Herren, showed this slide, which speaks to the company's TAM and the organizational structure that you were just talking about. So the big message was that Cisco has got a large and growing market, you know, no shortage of available market. Somewhere between eight and 900 billion, depending on which of the slides you pull out of the deck. And ironically Zeus, when you look at the current markets number here on the right hand side of this slide, 260 billion, it just about matches the company's market cap. Maybe an interesting coincidence, but at any rate, what was your takeaway from this data? >> Well, I think, you know, the big takeaway from the data is there's still a lot of room ahead for Cisco to grow, right? Again, this is a, it's a company that I think most people would put in the camp of legacy IT vendor, just because of how long they've been around. But they have done a very good job of staving off innovation. And part of that is just these markets that they play in continue to grow and they continue to have challenges that they can solve. I think one of the things Cisco has done though, since the arrival of Chuck Robbins, is they don't fight these trends anymore, Dave. I know prior to Chuck's arrival, they really fought the tide of software defined networking and you know, trends like that, and even cloud to some extent. And I remember one of the first meetings I had with Chuck, I asked him about that and he said that Cisco will never do that again. That under his watch, if customers are going through a market transition, Cisco wants to lead them through it, not try and hold them back. And I think for that reason, they're able to look at, all of those trends and try and take a leadership position in them, even though you might look at some of those and feel that some of them might be detrimental to Cisco's business in the short term. So something like software defined WANs, which you would throw into secure agile networks, certainly doesn't, may not carry the same kind of RPOs and margins with it that their traditional routers did, but ultimately customers are going to buy it and Cisco would like to be the ones to sell it to them. >> You know, you bring up a great point. This industry is littered, there's a graveyard of executives who fought the trend. Many people, some people remember Ken Olson of Digital Equipment Corporation. "Unix is snake oil," is what he said. IBM mainframe guys said, "PCs are a toy." And of course the history, they were the wrong side of history. The other big takeaway was the shift to software in subscription. They really made a big point of this. Here's a chart Cisco showed a couple of times to make the point that it's one of the largest software companies in the world. You know, in the top 10. They also made the point that Chuck Robbins, when he joined in 2015, and since that time, it's nearly 4x'ed it's subscription software revenue, and roughly doubled its software sales. And it now has an RPO, remaining performance obligations, that exceeds 30 billion. And it's committing to grow its subscription business in the forward-looking statements by 15 to 17% CAGR through 25, which would imply about a doubling of these, the blue lines. Zeus, it's unclear if that forward-looking forecast is just software. I presume it includes some services, but as Herren pointed out, over time, these services will be bundled into the product revenue, same way SAS companies do it. But the point is Cisco is committed, like many of their peers, to moving to an ARR model. But please, share your thoughts on Cisco's move to software subscriptions and how you see the future of consumption-based pricing. >> Yeah, this has been a big shift for Cisco, obviously. It's one that's highly disruptive. It's one that I know gave their partners a lot of angst for a long time because when you sell things upfront, you get a big check for selling that, right? And when you sell things in a subscription model, you get a much smaller check for a number of months over the period of the contract. It also changes the way you deal with the customer. When you sell a one-time product, you basically wipe your hands. You come back in three or four years and say, "it's time to upgrade." When you sell a subscription, now, the one thing that I've tried to talk to Cisco and its partners about is customers don't renew things they don't use. And so it becomes incumbent on the partner, it becomes incumbent upon Cisco to make sure that things that the customer is subscribing to, that they do use. And so Cisco's had to create a customer success organization. They've had to help their partners create those customer success organizations. So it's really changed the model. And Cisco not only made the shift, they've done it faster than they actually had originally forecast. So during the financial analyst day, they actually touted their execution on software, noting that it hit it's 30% revenue as percent of total target well before it was supposed to, it's actually exceeded its targets. And now it's looking to increase that to, it actually raised its guidance in this area a little bit by a few percentage points, looking out over the next few years. And so it's moved to the subscription model, Dave, the thing that you brought up, which I do see as somewhat of a challenge is the shift to consumption-based pricing. So subscription is one thing in that I write you a check every month for the same amount. When I go to the consumption-based pricing, that's easy to do for cloud services, things like WebEx or Duo or, you know, CloudLock, some of the security products. That that shift should be relatively simple. If customers want to buy it that way. It's unclear as to how you do that when you're selling on-prem equipment with the software add-on to it because in that case, you have to put metering technology in to understand how much they're using. You have to have a minimum baseline to start with. They've done it in some respects. The old HCS product that they sold, the Telcos, actually was sold with a minimum commit and then they tacked on a utilization on top of that. So maybe they move into that kind of model. But I know it's something that they've, they get asked about a lot. I know they're still thinking about it, but it's something that I believe is coming and it's going to come pretty fast. >> I want to pick up on that because I think, you know, they made the point that we're one of the top 10 software companies in the world. It's very difficult for hardware companies to make the transition to software. You know, HP couldn't do it. >> Well, no one's done it. >> Well, IBM has kind of done it, but they really struggle. It's kind of this mishmash of tooling and software products that aren't really well-integrated. But, I would say this, everybody now, Cisco, Dell, HPE with GreenLake, Lenovo, pretty much all the traditional hardware players are trying to move to an as a service model or at least for a portion of their business. HPE's all in, Dell transitioning. And for the most part, I would make the following observation. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this. They're pretty much following a SAS like model, which in my view is outdated and kind of flawed from a customer standpoint. All these guys say, "Hey, we're doing this because "this is what the customers want." I think the cloud is really a true consumption based model. And if you look at modern SAS companies, a lot of the startups, they're moving to a consumption based model. You see that with Snowflake, you see that with Stripe. Now they will offer incentives. But most of the traditional enterprise players, they're saying, "Okay, pay us upfront, "commit to some base level. "If you go over it, you know, "we'll charge you for it. "If you go under it, you're still going to pay "for that base level." So it's not true consumption base. It's not really necessarily the customer's best interest. So that's, I think there's some learnings there that are going to have to play out. >> Yeah, the reason customers are shying away from that SAS type model, I think during the pandemic, the one thing we learned, Dave, is that the business will ebb and flow greatly from month to month sometimes. And I was talking with somebody that worked for one of the big hotel chains, and she was telling me that what their CRM providers, she wouldn't tell me who it was, except said it rhymed with Shmalesforce, that their utilization of it went from, you know, from a nice steady level to spiking really high when customers started calling in to cancel hotel rooms. And then it dropped down to almost nothing as we went through that period of stay at home. And now it's risen back up. And so for her, she wanted to move to a consumption-based model because what happens otherwise is you wind up buying for peak utilization, your software subscriptions go largely underutilized the majority of the year, and you wind up paying, you know, a lot more than you need to. If you go to more of a true consumption model, it's harder to model out from a financial perspective 'cause there's a lot of ebbs and flows in the business, but over a longer period of time, it's more cost-effective, right? And so the, again, what the pandemic taught us was we don't really know what we're going to need from a consumption standpoint, you know, nevermind a year from now, maybe even six months from now. And consumption just creates a lot more flexibility and agility. You can scale up, you can scale down. You can bring in users, you can take out users, you can add consultants, things like that. And it just, it's much more aligned with the way businesses are run today. >> Yeah, churn is a silent killer of a software company. And so there's retention is the key here. So again, I think there's lots of learning. Let's put Cisco into context with some of its peers. So this chart we developed compares five companies to Cisco. Core Dell, meaning Dell, without VMware. VMware, HPE, IBM, we've put an AWS, and then Cisco as, IBM, AWS and Cisco is the integrated plays. So the chart shows the latest quarterly revenue multiplied by four to get a run rate, a three-year growth outlook, gross margin percentage, market cap, and revenue multiple. And the key points here are that one, Cisco has got a pretty awesome business model. It's got 60% gross margin, strong operating margins, not shown here, but in the mid twenties, 25%. It's got a higher growth rate than most of its peers. And as such, a much better, multiple than say, for instance, Core Dell gets 33 cents on the revenue dollar. HPE is double that. IBM's below two X. Cisco's revenue multiple rivals VMware, which is a pure software company. Now in a large part that's because VMware stock took a hit recently, but still the point is obvious. Cisco's got a great business. Now for context, we've added AWS, which blows away any company on this chart. We've inferred a market cap of nearly 600 billion, which frankly is conservative at a 10 X revenue multiple given it's inferred margins and growth rate. Now Zeus, if AWS were a separate company, it could have a market cap that approached 800 billion in my view. But what does this data tell you? >> Well, it just tells me that Cisco continues to be a very well-run company that has staved off commoditization, despite the calling for it for years. And I think the big lesson, and I've talked to financial analysts about this over the years, is that if, I don't really believe anything in this world is a commodity, Dave. I think even when Cisco went to the server market, if you remember back then, they created a new way of handling memory management. They were getting well above average margins for service, albeit less than Cisco's network margins, but still above average for server margins. And so I think if you can continue to innovate, you will see the margin stay where they are. You will see customers continue to buy and refresh. And I think one of the challenges Cisco's had in the past, and this is where the subscription business will help, is getting customers to stay with the latest and greatest. Prior to this refresh of network equipment, some of the stuff that I've seen in the fields, 10, 15 years old, once you move to that sell me a box and then tack on the subscription revenue that you pay month by month, you do drive more consistent refresh. Think about the way you just handle your own mobile phone. If you had to go pay, you know, a thousand dollars every three years, you might not do it at that three-year cycle. If you pay 40 bucks a month, every time there's a new phone, you're going to take it, right? So I think Cisco is able to drive greater, better refresh, keep their customers current, keep the features in there. And we've seen that with a lot of the new products. The new Cat 9,000, some of the new service provider products, the new wifi products, they've all done very well. In fact, they've all outpaced their previous generation products as far as growth rate goes. And so I think that is a testament to the way they've run the business. But I do think when people bucket Cisco in with HP and Dell, and I understand why they do, their businesses were similar at one time, it's really not a true comparison anymore. I think Cisco has completely changed their business and they're not trying to commoditize markets, they're trying to drive innovation and keep the margins up, where I think HP and Dell tend to really compete on price versus innovation. >> Well, and we are going to get to this point about the tailwinds and headwinds and cloud, and how Cisco to do it. But, to your point about, you know, the cell phone analogy. To the extent that Cisco can make that seamless for customers could hide that underlying complexity, that's going to be critical for the cloud. Now, but before we get there, I want to talk about one of the reasons why Cisco such a high multiple, and has been able to preserve its margins, to your point, not being commoditized. And it's been able to grow both organically, but also has a strong history of M and A. It's this chart shows a dominant position in core networking. So this shows, so ETR data within the Fortune 500. It plots companies in the ETR taxonomy in two dimensions, net score on the vertical axis, which is a measure of spending velocity, and market share on the horizontal axis, which is a measure of presence in the survey. It's not like IDC market share, it's mentioned market share if you will. The point is Cisco is far and away the most pervasive player in the market, it's generally held its dominant position. Although, it's been under pressure in the last few years in core networking, but it retains or maintains a very respectable net score and consistently performs well for such a large company. Zeus, anything you'd add with respect to Cisco's core networking business? >> Yeah, it's maintained a dominant network position historically. I think part of because it drives good products, but also because the competitive landscape, historically has been pretty weak, right? We saw companies like 3Com and Nortel who aren't around anymore. It'll be interesting to see moving forward now that companies like VMware are involved in networking. AWS is interested in networking. Arista is a much stronger company. You know, Juniper bought Mist and is in better position. Even Extreme Networks who most people thought was dead a few years ago has made a number of acquisitions and is now a billion dollar company. So while Cisco has done a great job of execution, they've done a great job on the innovation side, their competitive landscape, looking out over the next five years, I think is going to be more difficult than it has been over the previous five years. And largely, Dave, I think that's good for Cisco. I think whenever Cisco's pressed a little bit from competition, they tend to step on the innovation gas a little bit more. And I look back and even just the transition when VMware bought Nicira, that got Cisco's SDN business into gear, like nothing else could have, right? So competition for that company, they always seem to respond well to it. >> So, let's break down Cisco's net score a little bit. Explain why the company has been able to hold its spending momentum despite its large size. This will give you a little insight to the survey. So this chart shows the granular components of net score. The lime green is new adoptions to Cisco. The forest green is spending more than 6%. The gray is flat plus or minus 5%. The pink is spending drops by more than 5%. And the red is we're chucking the platform, we're getting off. And Cisco's overall net score here is 25%, which for a company of its size speaks to the relationships that it has with customers. It's of course got a fat middle in the gray area, like all sort of large established companies. But very low defections as well, it's got low new adoptions. But very respectable. So that is background, Zeus. Let's look at spending momentum over time across Cisco's portfolio. So this chart shows Cisco's net score by that methodology within the ETR taxonomy for Cisco over three survey periods. And what jumps out is Meraki on the left, very strong. Virtualization business, its core networking, analytics and security, all showing upward momentum. AppD is a little bit concerning, but that could be related to Cisco's sort of pivot to full stack observability. So maybe AppD is being bundled there. Although some practitioners have cited to us some concerns in that space. And then WebEx at the end of the chart, it's showing some relative strength, but not that high. Zeus, maybe you could comment on Meraki and any other takeaways across the portfolio. >> Yeah, Meraki has proven to be an excellent acquisition for Cisco. In fact, you might, I think it's arguable to say it's its best acquisition in history going all the way back to camp Kalpana and Grand Junction, the ones that brought up catalyst switches. So, in fact, I think Meraki's revenue might be larger than security now. So, that shows you the momentum it has. I think one of the lessons it brought to Cisco was that simpler is better, sometimes. I think when they first bought Meraki, the way Meraki's deployed, it's very easy to set up. There's a lot of engineering work though that goes into making a product simple to use. And I think a lot of Cisco engineers historically looked at Meraki as, that's a little bit of a toy. It's meant for small businesses, things like that, but it's not for enterprise. But, Rocky's done a nice job of expanding the portfolio, of leveraging the cloud for analytics and showing you a lot of things that you wouldn't necessarily get from traditional networking equipment. And one of the things that I was really delighted to see was when they put Todd Nightingale in charge of all the networking business, because that showed to me that Chuck Robbins understood that the things Meraki were doing were right and they infuse a little bit of Meraki into the rest of the company. You know, that's certainly a good thing. The other areas that you showed on the chart, not really a surprise, Dave. When you think of the shift hybrid work and you think of the, some of the other transitions going on, I think you would expect to see the server business in decline, the storage business, you know, maybe in a little bit of decline, just because people aren't building out data centers. Where the other ones are related more to hybrid working, hybrid cloud, things like that. So it is what you would expect. The WebEx one was interesting too, because it did show somewhat of a dip and then a rise. And I think that's indicative of what we've seen in the collaboration space since the pandemic came about. Companies like Zoom and RingCentral really got a lot of the headlines. Again, when you, the comment I made on competition, Cisco got caught a little bit flat-footed, they've caught up in features and now they really stepped on the gas there. Chuck joked that he gave the WebEx team a bit of a blank check to go do what it had to do. And I don't think that was a joke. I think he actually did that because they've added more features into WebEx in the last year then I think they did the previous five years before that. >> Well, let's just drill into video conferencing real quick here, if we could. Here's that two dimensional view, again, showing net score against market share or pervasiveness of mentions, and you can see Microsoft Teams in the upper right. I mean, it's off the chart, literally. Zoom's well ahead of Cisco in terms of, you know, mentions presence. And that could be a spate of freemium, you know, but it's basically a three horse race in this game. And Cisco, I don't think is trying to take Zoom head on, rather it seems to be making WebEx a core part of its broader collaboration agenda. But Zeus, maybe you could comment. >> Well, it's all coming together, right? So, it's hard to decouple calling from video from meetings. All of the vendors, including Teams, are going after the hybrid work experience. And if you believe the future is hybrid and not just work from home, then Cisco does have a pretty interesting advantage because it's the only one that makes its own end points, where Teams and Zoom doesn't. And so that end to end experience it can deliver. The Microsoft Teams one's interesting because that product, frankly, when you talk to users, it doesn't have a great user score, like as far as user satisfaction goes, but the one thing Microsoft has done a very good job of is bundling it in to the Office365 licenses, making it very easy for IT to deploy. Zoom is a little bit in the middle where they've appealed to the users. They've done a better job of appealing to IT, but there is a, there is a battleground now going on where video's not just video. It includes calling, includes meetings, includes room systems now, and I think this hybrid work friend is going to change the way we think about these meeting tools. >> Now we'd be remiss if we didn't spend a moment talking about security as a key part of Cisco's business. And we have a graphic on this same kind of X, Y. And it's been, we've seen several quarters of growth. Although, the last quarter security growth was in the low single digits, but Cisco is a major player in security. And this X, Y graph shows, they've got both a large presence and a solid spending momentum. Not nearly as much momentum as Okta or Zscaler or a CrowdStrike and some of the smaller companies, but they're, these guys are on a rocket ship, but others that we featured in these episodes, but much more than respectable for Cisco. And security is critical to the strategy. It's a big part of the subscriber base. And the last thing, Zeus, I'll say about Cisco made the point in analyst day, that this market is crowded. You can see that in this chart. And their goal is to simplify this picture and make it easier for customers to secure their data and apps. But that's not easy, Zeus. What are your thoughts on Cisco's security opportunities? >> Yeah, I've been waiting for Cisco go to break up in security a little more than it has. I do think, I was talking with a CSO the other day, Dave, that said to me he's starting to understand that you don't have to have best of breed everywhere to have best in class threat protection. In fact, there's a lot of buyers now will tell you that if you try and have best of breed everywhere, it actually creates a negative when it comes to threat protection because keeping all the policies and things up to date is very, very difficult. And so the industry is moving more to a platform model, right? Now, the challenge for Cisco is how do you get that, the customer to think of the network as part of the platform? Because while the platform model, I think, is starting to gain traction, FloridaNet, Palo Alto, even McAfee, companies like that also have their own version of a security platform. And if you look at the financial performance of companies like FloridaNet and Palo Alto over the past, you know, over the past couple of years, they've been through the roof, right? And so I think an interesting and unique challenge for Cisco is can they convince the security buyer that the network is as important a part of that platform as any other component? If they can do that, I think they can break away from the pack. If not, then they'll stay mixed in with those, you know, Palo, FloridaNet, Checkpoint, and, you know, and Cisco, in that mix. But I do think that may present their single biggest needle moving opportunity just because of how big the security TAM is, and the fact that there is no de facto leader in security today. If they could gain the same kind of position in security as they have a networking, who, I mean, that would move the needle like no other market would. >> Yeah, it's really interesting that they're coming at security, obviously from a position of networking strength. You've got, to your point, you've got best of breed, Okta in identity, you got CrowdStrike in endpoint, Zscaler in cloud security. They're all growing like crazy. And you got Cisco and you know, Palo Alto, CSOs tell us they want to work with Palo Alto because they're the thought leader and they're obviously a major player here. You mentioned FloridaNet, there's a zillion others. We could talk all day about security. But let's bring it back to cloud. We've talked about a number of the piece in Cisco's portfolio, and we haven't really spent any time on full stack observability, which is a big push for Cisco with AppD, Intersight and the ThousandEyes acquisition. And that plays into this equation. But my take, Zeus, is Cisco has a number of cloud knobs that it can turn, it sells core networking equipment to hyperscalers. It can be the abstraction layer to connect on-prem to the cloud and hybrid and across clouds. And it's in a good position with Telcos too, to go after the 5G. But let's use this chart to talk about Cisco's cloud prospects. It's an ETR cut of the cloud customer spending. So we cut it by cloud customers. And they're are, I don't know, 800 or so in the survey. And then looking at various companies performance within that cut. So these are companies that compete, or in the case of HashiCorp, partner with Cisco at some level. Let me just set this up and get your take. So the insert on the chart by the way shows the raw data that positions each dot, the net score and the shared n, i.e. the number of accounts in the survey that responded. The key points, first of all, Azure and AWS, dominant players in cloud. GCP is a distant third. We've reported on that a lot. Not only are these two companies big, they have spending momentum on their platforms. They're growing, they are on that flywheel. Second point, VMware and Cisco are very prominent. They have huge customer bases. And while they're often on a collision course, there's lots of room in cloud for multiple players. When we plotted some other Cisco properties like AppD and Meraki, which as we said, is strong. And then for context, we've placed Dell, HPE, Aruba, IBM and Oracle. And also VMware cloud and AWS, which is notable on its elevation. And as I say, we've added HashiCorp because they're critical partner of Cisco and it's a multi-cloud play. Okay, Zeus, there's the setup. What does Cisco have to do to make the cloud a tailwind? Let's talk about strategy, tailwinds, headwinds, competition, and bottom line it for us. >> Yeah, well, I do think, well, I talked about security being the biggest needle mover for Cisco, I think its biggest challenge is convincing Wall Street in particular, that the cloud is a tailwind. I think if you look at the companies with the really high multiples to their stock, Dave, they're all ones where they're viewed as, they go along with the cloud ride, Right? So the, if you can associate yourself with the cloud and then people believe that the cloud is going to, more cloud equals more business, that obviously creates a better multiple because the cloud has almost infinite potential ahead of it. Now with respect to Cisco, I do think cloud has presented somewhat of a double-edged sword for Cisco. I don't believe the current consumption model for cloud is really a tailwind for Cisco, not really a headwind, but it doesn't really change Cisco's business. But I do think the very definition of cloud is changing before our eyes, Dave. And it's shifting away from centralized clouds. If you think of the way customers bought cloud before, it might have used AWS, it might've used Azure, but it really, that's not really multi-cloud, it's just multiple clouds in which I put things in these centralized resources. It's shifting more to this concept of distributed cloud in which a single application can be built using resources from your private cloud, for AWS, from Azure, from Edge locations, all the cloud providers have built their portfolios to support this concept of distributed cloud and what becomes important there, is a highly agile dynamic network. And in that case with distributed cloud, that is a tailwind for Cisco because now the network is that resource that ties all those distributed cloud components together. Now the network itself has to change. It needs to become a lot more agile and microservices and container friendly itself so I can spin up resources and, you know, in an Edge location, as fast as I can on-prem and things like that. But I do think it creates another wave of innovation and networking, and in that case, I think it does act as a tailwind for Cisco, aside from just the work it's done with the web scalers, you know, those types of companies. So, but I do think that Cisco needs to rethink its delivery model on network services somewhat to take advantage of that. >> At the analyst meeting, Cisco made the point that it does sell to the hyperscalers. It talked about the top six hyperscalers. You know, you had mentioned to me, maybe IBM and Oracle were in there. I always talk about four hyperscalers and only four, but that's fine. Here's my question. Practitioners have told me, buyers have told me, the more money and more workloads I put in the cloud, the less I spend with Cisco. Now, even though that might be Cisco gear powering those clouds, do you see that as a potential threat in that they don't own that relationship anymore and value will confer to the cloud players? >> Yeah, that's, I've heard that too. And I don't, I believe that's true when it comes to general purpose compute. You're probably not buying as many UCS servers and things like that because you are putting them in the cloud. But I do think you do need a refresh the network. I think the network becomes a very important role, plays a very important role there. The variant, the really interesting trend will be, what is your WAM look like? Do you have thousands of workers scattered all over the place, or do you just have a few centralized locations? So I think also, you know, Cisco will wind up providing connectivity within the cloud. If you think of the transition we've seen in other industries, Dave, as far as cloud goes, you think of, you know, F5, a company like that. People thought that AWS would commoditize F5's business because AWS provides their own load balancers, right? But what AWS provides is a very basic, very basic functionality and then use F5's virtual edition or a cloud edition for a lot of the advanced capabilities. And I think you'll see the same thing with the cloud that customers will start buying versions of Cisco that go in the cloud to drive a lot of those advanced capabilities that only Cisco delivers. And so I think you wind up buying more Cisco over time, although the per unit price of what you buy might be a little bit lower. If that makes sense here. >> It does, I think it makes a lot of sense and that fits into the cloud model. You know, you bring up a good point, the conversation with the customer was Rakuten. And that individual was essentially sharing with us, somebody was asking, one of the analysts was asking, "Well, what about the cloud guys? "Aren't they going to really threaten the whole Telco "industry and disrupt it?" And his point was, "Look at, this stuff is not trivial." So to your point, you know, maybe they'll provide some basic functionality. Kind of like they do in a lot of different areas. Data protection is another good example. Security is another good example. Where there's plenty of room for partners, competitors, of on-prem players to add value. And I've always said, "Look, the opportunity "is the cloud players spend 100 billion dollars a year "on CapEx." It's a gift to companies like Cisco who can build an abstraction layer that connects on-prem, cloud for hybrid, across clouds, out to the edge, and really be that layer that is that layer that takes advantage of cloud native, but also delivers that experience, I don't want to use the word seamlessly, but that experience across those clouds as the cloud expands. And that's fundamentally Cisco's cloud strategy, isn't it? >> Oh yeah. And I think people have underestimated over the years, how hard it is to build good networking products. Anybody can go get some silicon and build a product to connect two things together. The question is, can you do it at scale? Can you do it securely? And lots of companies have tried to commoditize networking, you know, White Boxes was looked at as the existential threat to Cisco. Huawei was looked at as the big threat to Cisco. And all of those have kind of come and gone because building high quality network equipment that scales is tough. And it's tougher than most people realize. And your other point on the cloud providers as well, they will provide a basic level of functionality. You know, AWS network equipment doesn't work in Azure. And Azure stuff doesn't work in Google, and Google doesn't work in AWS. And so you do need a third party to come in and act as almost the cloud middleware that can connect all those things together with a consistent set of policies. And that's what Cisco does really well. They did that, you know back when they were founded with routing protocols and you can think this is just an extension of what they're doing just up at the cloud layer. >> Excellent. Okay, Zeus, we're going to leave it there. Thanks to my guest today, Zeus Kerravala. Great analysis as always. Would love to have you back. Check out ZKresearch.com to reach him. Thank you again. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Now, remember I publish each week on Wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. All these episodes are available as podcasts, just search "Braking Analysis" podcast, and you can connect on Twitter at DVallante or email me David.Vallante@siliconangle.com. Thanks for the comments on LinkedIn. Check out etr.plus for all the survey action. This is Dave Vallante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Be well and we'll see you next time. (light music)

(upbeat music) >> Okay, we're back here in theCUBE, this is day three of our coverage right here in the middle of all the action of Cloud City at Mobile World Congress. This is the hit of the entire show in Barcelona, not only in person, but out on the interwebs virtually, this is a hybrid event. This is back to real life, and theCUBE is here. I'm John Furrier and Dave Vellante and DR is here, Danielle Royston. >> Totally. >> Welcome back to theCUBE for the fourth time now at the anchor desk, coming back, we love you. >> Well, it's been a busy day, it's been a busy week. It's been an awesome week. >> John: Feeling good? >> Oh my God. >> You made the call. >> I've made the call. >> You did on your podcast what, months ago. >> Yeah, right? >> You made the call. >> Made the call. >> You're on the right side of history. >> Right, and people were like, it's going to be canceled. COVID won't be handled, blahbity blah. >> She's crazy. >> Nope, I was just crazy, I'm okay with that, right? >> Crazy good. >> Right, I'm like I'm forward looking in a lot of ways. And we were looking towards June and we're like, I think this is going to be the first event back. >> You know, the crazy ones commercial that Apple ran is one of the best commercials of all time. You can't ignore the crazy ones in a good way. You can't ignore what you're doing. And I think to me, what I'm so excited about is cause we've been covering cloud we're cloud bigots, we love the cloud, public cloud. We've been on that train from day one. But when you hear the interviews we did here in theCUBE and interviews that we talked about with the top people, Google, Amazon Web Services. We're talking about the top people, both technology leaders like Bill Vass and the people who run the telecom verticals like Alfonzo, Adolfo, I mean, Hernandez. We had Google's top networking executive, we had their industry leader and the telecom, Microsoft and the Silicon all are validating, and it's like, surround sound to what you're saying here, and it cannot be ignored. >> I mean, we are coming to a big moment in Telco, right? And I mean, I've been saying it's coming. I called 2021, the year of Public Cloud and Telco. It helped that Erickson bailed. So thank you, Erickson people. >> It was a gift. >> It was a gift. >> It was. >> It really was a gift. And it was not just for me, but I think also for the vendors in the booth, I mean, we have a Cloud City army, right? Here we go, let's start marching, and it's awesome. >> He reminds me of that baseball player that took a break, cause he had a hangover and, Cal Ripkin. >> Cal Ripkin? >> Yeah, what was that guy's name? >> Did that really happen? >> Yeah, he took a break and uh- >> New guy stepped in. >> Yeah, and so well, not Cal Ripkin. >> No, no, so before, you want to know, who was it, Lou Gehrig? >> Lou Gehrig, yeah, Lou Gehrig. >> Right, so, Lou Gehrig was nobody, and we can't remember the guy's name, nobody knows the guy's name, what was that guy's name? Nobody knows, oh, there's Lou Gehrig, he got hurt. He sat out and Lou Gehrig replaced him and never hear of him again. >> Danielle: Love it, I'll take that. >> Never, never missed a game for his entire career. So again, this is what Erickson did, they just okay, take a break. >> Yeah, but I mean, it's been great again. I had a great day yesterday, my keynote was delivered. Things are going well with the booth, we had Jon Bon Jovi. I mean, that was just epic and it was acoustic and it was right after lockdown. I think everyone was really excited to be there. But I was talking to a vendor that said we'd been able to accomplish in three days, what normally it would take three years from a sales funnel perspective. I mean, that's big and that's not me. That's not my organization. That's other organizations that are benefiting from this energy. Oh, it's awesome. >> The post isolation economy has become a living metaphor for transformation, and I've been trying to sort of grok and put the pieces together as to how this thing progresses in my interview with Portal One in particular really brought it into focus for me, anyway, I'd love to get your thoughts. One of the things we haven't talked much about is public policy, and I think about all the time, all the discussion in the United States about infrastructure, this is critical infrastructure, right? And the spectrum is a country like South Africa saying, come on in, we want to open up. We want to innovate, to me, that's the model for these tier two and tier three Telcos that are just going to disrupt the big guys, whereas, maybe China's maybe on the other end of the spectrum, very controlling, but it's the former that is going to adopt the cloud sooner, and it's going to completely transform the next decade. >> Yeah, I think this is a great technology for a smaller challenge or CSP that still is a large successful company to challenge the incumbents that are, they are dinosaurs too, they move a little bit slow, and maybe if you're a little bit faster, quicker dinosaur you'll survive longer, maybe you'll be able to transform and, and a public cloud enables that. And I think, you know I'm playing the long game here, right? Is public cloud already for every Telco in every corner of the world, no. And there's a couple of things that are barriers to that. We don't really talk about the downsides, and so maybe we sort of wrap up with- there are challenges and acknowledge there are challenges, you know, in some cases their data regulations and issues, right? And you can't right? There's not a hyperscaler in your country, right? And so you're having a little bit of challenges, but you trend this out over 10 years and then pace it with the hyperscalers that are building new data centers. They're each at 25 plus each, you know, plus or minus a few, right? They're marching along, and you trend this out over 10 years, I think one of two things happened, your data regulations are eased or a hyperscaler appears in a place you can use it, and those points converge and hopefully the software's there, and that's my effort and (claps) yeah. >> Dave: You know what's an interesting trend, DR and John, that is maybe a harbinger to this, is you just mentioned something. If the hyperscalers might not have a presence in, in a country, you know what they're doing? And our data shows this, I do that weekly series breaking analysis and the data Openstack was popping up. Like where does OpenStack come from, well, guess what, when you cut the data, it was Telcos using open source to build clouds in regions where there was no hyperscalers. >> It's a gap filler. >> Yeah, it's a gap filler, it's a bandaid. >> But I think this is where, like. outpost is such a great idea, right? Like getting outposts, and I think Microsoft has the ability to do this as well, Google less so, right? They're not providing the staff, they're doing Anthos. So you're still managing this, the rack, but they're giving you the ability to tap into their services. But I was talking to a CTO in Bolivia. He was like, we have data privacy issues in our country. There's no hyperscaler, not sure Bolivia is like next on the list for AWS, right? But he's like, I'm going to build my own public cloud. And I'm like why would you do that when you can just use outposts? And then when your data regulations release, where they get to Bolivia, you can switch and you're on the stack, and you're ready to go. I think that's what you should do. You should totally do that. >> John: Yeah, one of the things that's come up on here in the interviews, in theCUBE and here, the show is that there are risk takers and innovators and there's operators. And this has been the consistent theme around, yeah, the on-premises world you mentioned this regulation reasons, and or some workflows just have to be on premise for security reasons, whatever, that's the corner case. But the operating model of the technology architecture is shifted. And that reality, I don't think is debatable, so I find it, I got to ask you this because I'm really curious. I know you get a lot of people staring at ya, oh the public cloud's just a hosting, but why aren't people getting this architectural shift? I mean, you mentioned outpost and wavelength, which Amazon has, is a game changer. It's Amazon cloud at the hub. >> Yeah, at the edge. >> Okay, that's a low latency, again, low-hanging fruit applications, real buys, whatnot. I mean, that's an architectural dot that's been connected. Why are people getting it. >> In our industry, I think it is a lot of not invented here syndrome, right? And that's a very sort of nineties thought and I have been advocating stand on the shoulders of the greatest technologists in the world, right, and you know, there's, there is a geopolitical US thing, I think we lived through a presidency that had a sort of nationalistic approach and a lot of those conversations pop up, but I've also looked to these guys and I'm like, you're still, you still have your Huawei kit installed. And there's concerns with that too. So, and you picked it because of cost, and it's really hard to switch off of, so give me a break with your public cloud USA stuff, right? You can use it, you're just making excuses, you're just afraid. What are you afraid of, the HR implications? Let's talk about that, right? And the minute I take it there, conversation changes. >> Yeah, I talked to Teresa Carlson when she was running the public sector at AWS, she's now president of Splunk. I call her a Renaissance woman. She's been a great leader and public sector for this weird little pocket of AWS where it's a guess a sales division, but it's still its own company. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And she's, did the CIA deal, the DOD, and the public sector partnerships are now private, a lot more private relationships, So it's not like just governments, you mentioned government and national security, and these things, you started to see the ecosystem not, not just be about companies, >> Danielle: Yeah. >> Government and private sector. So this whole vibe of the telecom being regulated, unregulated, unbundled is an interesting kind of theory. What's your thoughts and reactions to this, kind of this, melting pot of ecosystem change and evolution? >> Danielle: Yeah, I mean. I think there's a very nationalistic approach by the Telcos, right? They sort of think about the countries that they operate in. There's a couple of groups that go across multiple countries, but can there be a global Telco? Can that happen, right? Just like we say, you were saying it earlier, Netflix, right? You can say Netflix, UK. Right, and so can we have a global Telco, right. That is challenging on a lot of different levels. But think about that in a public cloud start to enable that idea, right? Elon Musk is going to get to Mars. You need a planetary level Telco. And I can, I think that day is, I mean, I don't think it's tomorrow, but I think that's like 10, 20 years away. >> Dave: You're done, we're going to see it start this decade, it's already starting. We're going to see the fruits of that dividend. >> Danielle: Yeah, it's crazy. >> I've got to ask you, you're a student of the industry and you get so much experience, it's great to have you on theCUBE and chat about, riff about these things, but, the classic who's ready for disruption question comes up, and I think there's no doubt that the Telcos as an industry has been slow moving and the role and the importance has changed. People need the need to have the internet access they need to access. >> Yeah. >> So, and you've got the edge, now applications are now running on it, since the iPhone 14 years ago, as you pointed out, people now are interested in how packets move. That's fast whether it's a doctor or an emergency worker or someone. >> Danielle: What we have done in 2020 without the internet and broadband and our mobile phones, I mean? >> You know, I think about 1920 when the Spanish flu pandemic hit a hundred years ago, those guys did not have mobile phones and they must have been bored, right? I mean, what are you going to do, right? And so, yeah I think last year really moved a lot of thinking forward in this respect, so. >> Yeah, it's always like that, that animal out in the Serengeti that gets taken down, you know, by the cheetah or the lion. How do know when someone is going to be disrupted What's the, what's the tell sign in your mind, you look at the Telco landscape. What is someone waiting to be disrupted or replaced like? >> You know what they're ostriches, how do you say that word, right? They stick their head in the sand. Like I don't want to talk about it, la la la, I don't want to, I don't want to think about it. You know, they bring up all these like roadblocks, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to come visit you in another six months to a year, and let's see what happens when the guys that are moving fast that are open-minded to this, and it's, I mean, when you start to use the public cloud, you don't, like, turn it on overnight. You start experimenting, right? You start, you take an application that is non-threatening. You have, I mean, these guys are running thousands of apps inside their data centers. Pick some boring ones, pick some old ones that no one likes, and move that to the public cloud, play with it. Right, I'm not talking about moving a whole network overnight tomorrow. You got to learn, you have no, I mean, very little talent in the Telco that know how to program against the AWS stack. Start hiring, start doing it, and you're going to start to learn about the compensation, and I used to do compensation, right? I spent a lot of time in HR, right? The compensation points and structures, they compare AWS and Google, versus a Telco. Do you want Telco stock? Do you want Google stock? >> Dave: Right, where do you want to go? >> Right, right? like that's going to challenge the HR organization in terms of compensate. How do we compensate our people when they're learning these new valuable skills? >> When you think about disruption, you know, the master or the professor of disruption, Clay Christensen, one of the best lectures he ever gave was who at Cambridge, and he gave a lecture on the steel industry, and he was describing it, it was like four layers of value in the steel industry, the value chain, it started with rebar, like the lowest end, right? >> Danielle: Yeah yeah. >> And the Telco's actually the opposite, so that, you know, when, when the international companies came in, they went after rebar, and the higher end steel companies said, nah, let them have it, that's the low margin stuff. And then eventually, uh, when they got up to the high end. >> Danielle: It was over, yeah. >> The Telcos are the opposite. They're like, the, you know, in the, in the conductivity and they're hanging on to that because it's so big, but all the high value stuff, it's already gone to the, over the top players, right. >> It's being eaten away, and I'm like, what is going to wake you guys up to realize those are your competitors, that's where the battle is, right? >> John: That's really where the value is. >> The battle of the bastards, you're there by yourself, like "Game of Thrones" and they're coming at you. >> John: You need a dragon. >> What are you doing about it? >> John: I need a dragon to compete in this market. Riding a dragon would be a good strategy. >> I know, I was just watching. Cause I have a podcast, I have a podcast called "Telco In 20" and we always put like little nuggets in the show notes, I personally reviewed them, I was just reviewing the one for the keynote that we're putting out, and I had a dragon in my keynote, right? It was a really great moment, it was really fun to do, but there's, I don't know if you guys are "Game of Thrones" fans. >> Yeah. >> Sure. >> Right, but there's a great moment when Daenerys gets her dragons, the baby dragons, and she takes over the Unsullied Army, right? And it's just this, right? Like all of a sudden the tables turn in an instant where she has nothing, and she's like on her quest, right. I'm on a quest. >> Dave: Comes out of the fire. >> Right, comes out of the fire, the unburnt, right? She has her dragons, right? She has them hatch. She takes over the Unsullied Army, right? Slaves, it starts her march, right? And I'm like, we're putting that clip into the show notes because I think that's where we are. I think I've hatched some dragons, right? The Cloud City army, let's go, let's go take on Telco. >> John: Well, I mean, this to me. >> Easy. >> It definitely have made, made it happen because I heard many people talking about cloud, this is turning into a cloud show. The question is, when does this going to be a cloud show? That's just Cloud City, it's a big section of the show. I mean, all the big players are behind it. >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> Amazon Web Services, Google Azure, Ecosystem, startups, thinking differently, but everyone's agreeing why aren't we doing this? >> I think, like I said, I mean, people are like, you're such a visionary, and how did, why do you think this will work, I'm like, it's worked in every other industry. Am I really that visionary, and like, these are the three best tech companies in the world, like, are, are you kidding me? And so I think we've shown the momentum here. I think we're looking forward to 2022, you know? And that we see 2022, you got to start planning this the minute we get back, right? Like I wouldn't recommend doing this in a hundred days again, that was a very painful, but you know, February, I was, there's a sign inside NWC, February 28th. Right, we're talking seven months. You got to get going now. >> John: Let's get on the phone. >> With Telco, I mean, I think you're right on. I mean, you know, remember Skype, in the early days, right? >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> It wasn't regional. It was just, plug into the internet. >> Danielle: It was just Skype, it was just WhatsApp. >> Well this is a great location, if you can get a shot guys of the people behind us, I don't know if you can, if you're watching check out the scene here, It's winding down, a lot of people having happy hour. Now this is a social construct here at Cloud City, not only is it chock full of information, reporting that we're doing and getting all the data and with the presentations on the main stage, with Adam and the studio and the team, this is a place where people are meeting and there's deals being done face to face, intimate relationships, the best of the best are here, they make the trek. So there's been a successful formula. Of course theCUBE is in the middle of all the action, which we love, we're psyched to be back. I want to thank you personally, while we have you on stage here. >> I want to thank you guys, and the crew, the crew has been amazing, turning out videos on short order. We have all these crews in different cities, it's, our own show has been virtual. You know, Adam's in Bristol, right? We're here, this was an experiment, we talked about this a hundred days ago, 90 days ago. Could we get theCUBE there, do the show but also theCUBE. >> You are a visionary, you said made for TV hybrid event with your team, produce television shows, theCUBE, we're digital, we love you guys, great alignment, but it's magical because the content doesn't end here, the show might end, they might break down the beautiful plants and the exhibits, but the community is going to continue, the content and the conversations. >> Yeah. >> So, we were looking forward to it and- >> I'm super glad, super glad we did this. >> Awesome, well, any final moments that you would like to share in the last two minutes we have, favorite moments, observations, funny things that have happened to you, weird things that have happened to you, share something that people might not know, or a favorite moment? >> I think, I don't know that people know, we have a 3D printer in the coffee shops, and so you can upload any picture and they're 3d printing, coffee art, right? So I've been seeing lots of social posts around people uploading their, their logos and things like that. I think Jon Bon Jovi, he was super thankful to be back. He thanked me personally two different times of like, I'm just glad to be out in front of people. And I think just even just the people walking around, thank you for being brave, thank you for coming back. You've helped Barcelona and we're happy to be together. Even if it is with masks, it's hard to do business with masks on, everyone's happy and psyched. >> John: Well the one thing that people cannot do relative to you is they cannot ignore you. You are making a great big wave. >> Danielle: I shout pretty loud, It's kind of hard to ignore me. >> You're making a great big wave, you're on the right side, we believe, of history, public cloud is driving the bus down main street of Cloud City, and if people don't get out of the way, they will be under the bus. >> I'm, like I said, in my keynote, it's go time let's do it. >> Okay. Thank you so much for all your attention and mission behind the cloud and the success. >> Danielle: We'll do it again. We're going to do it again soon. >> After Togi's a hundred million dollar investment, you're the CEO of Togi that, let's follow that progress, and of course, Telco DR, Danielle Royston, the digital revolution. Thanks for coming on with you. >> Thank you guys, it was super fun. >> This is theCUBE I'm John Furrier with Dave Vallante, we're going to send it back to Adam in the studio. Thanks, the team here. >> Woo! (audience applauding) >> I want to thank the team, everyone here, Adam is great, Chloe. >> Great working with you guys. >> Awesome, and what a great crew. >> So great. >> Thank you everybody. That's it for theCUBE, here on the last day, Wednesday of theCUBE, stay tuned for tomorrow more action on the main stage, here in Cloud City. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Okay, Chloe, thank you very much. Hey folks, in here in the Cloud City We with Danielle Royston. Great to see you. Watching you up on stage, I got to say, as the CEO of TelcoDR, leader and chief executive of that company. As well as a great visionary, you laid out the vision. It's hard to debate that. I mean, I think there's people who will say that vision, is like freedom, no one can debate it. It's not going to happen. >> Yeah, there's still a lot of debate in our industry about it. There's a lot of articles being written about it. I've referenced one about, you know, should we let the dragons into the castle? For me, I think it's super obvious. I think other industries are like "Duh, we've made the move." And Telco is still like, "Hmm, we're not sure." And so, am I a visionary, I don't know. I'm just sort of just Babe Ruth-ing it a little bit. I think that's where we're going. >> You know you do, you have a lot of content, podcasts, you write blogs, you do a lot of speaking. You brought it all together on stage, right? That has got to feel good. >> Yeah. >> You've got a body of work and it came together very nicely. How did you feel up there? >> Oh my God, it's absolutely nerve wrecking. I sort of feel like, you know, could you tell if my hands were shaking? Right, could you tell that my heart was racing? >> It's a good feeling. >> I don't know. >> Come on! >> I'll be honest, I'm happy it's over, I'm happy. I think I did a really great job and I'm really happy >> Yeah, you did a great job, I love the dragon reference-- >> Have it in the can. >> Fantastic, loved the Game of Thrones vibe there. It was cool-- >> Totally. >> One of the things I wanted pick up on, I thought it was very interesting and unique was the iPhone reference 14 years ago, because that really, to me, was a similar moment because that shifted the smartphone. A computer that happened to make phone calls. And then we all knew who was the leader at that time, Nokia, Blackberry with the phones, and they became toast. That ushered in a whole another era of change, wealth creation, innovation, new things. >> Yeah. Well, up until that moment, carriers had been designing the phones themselves. They were branded with their logos. And so Steve Jobs fought for the design of the iPhone. He designed it with the consumer, with the user in mind. But I think what it really, I mean, it's such a big pivotal moment in our industry because it singled the end of voice revenue and ushered in the era of data. But it also introduced the OTT players, right? That came in through the apps and started a siphon approved from the carriers. And this is like, it's a pivotal moment in the industry, like, changed the industry forever. >> It's a step function, it was a step function change, it's obvious, everyone knew it. But what's interesting is that we were riffing yesterday about O-RAN and Android. So you have iPhone, but Android became a very successful open source project that changed the landscape of the handset. Some are saying that that kind of phenomenon is coming here. Into Telco with software, kind of like an Android model where that'll come in. What's your thoughts on that, reaction to that? >> Yeah, well the dis-aggregation of the hardware, right? We're in the iconic Erickson booth, right? They get most of their revenue from RAN, from Radio Access Networks. And now with the introduction of Open RAN, right? With 50% less CapEx, 40% less OPEX, you know, I think it's easiest for Greenfield operators like Dish, that are building a brand new network. But just this month, Vodafone announced they're going to build the world's largest Open RAN network. Change is happening and the big operators are starting to adopt Open RAN in a real big way. >> So to me, riding the dragon means taking the advantage of new opportunities on top of that dragon. Developing apps like the iPhone did. And you mentioned Android, they got it right. Remember the Windows Phone, right? They tried to take Windows and shove it to the phone-- >> Barely. >> It was a kin phone too. >> I try to delete it from my, look here, beep! >> I'm going to take this old world app and I'm going to shove it into the new world, and guess what, it failed. So if the Telco is trying to do the same thing here, it will fail, but if they start building 5G apps in the cloud and pick the cloud native and think about the consumer, isn't really that the opportunity that you're talking about? >> Well, I think it is, absolutely. And I think it's a wake up call for the vendors in our space, right? And I'm certainly trying to become a vendor with Totogi. I'm really pushing my idea. But you can't take, using your Windows example on the Windows Phone, you can't take a Windows app and stuff it onto a phone and you can't take these old school applications that were written 20 years ago and just stuff them into the cloud, right? Cloud is not a place, it's a way to design applications and it all needs to be rewritten and let's go write, rewrite it. >> It's not a destination as we always say. Let's take a step back on the keynote 'cause I know we just did a couple of highlights there, wasn't the whole thing. We were watching it, by the way, we thought you did a great job, you were very cool and calm under pressure. But take us through the core ideas in the keynote. Break down the core elements of what the talk was about. >> Yeah, I think the headline really is, you know, just like there were good and bad things about the iPhone, right? It killed voice, but introduced data and all these other things. There's good and bad things about the public cloud, right? It's not going to be smooth sailing, no downsides. And so I acknowledge that, even though I'm the self appointed queen, you know? This self appointed evangelist. And so, I think that if you completely ignore the public cloud, try to stick your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist, I think there's nothing but downsides for Telcos. And so I think you need to learn how to maximize the advantage there, ride he dragon, like spew some fire and, you know, get some speed and height, and then you can double your ARPU. But I think, going from there, so the next three, I was trying to give examples of what I meant by that, of why it's a double-edged sword, why it's two sides of the coin. And I think there's three areas, which is the enterprise, the network, and a relationship with subscribers. And so that really what the talk, that's what the talk is about >> The three main pillars. >> Yeah, yeah! >> Future, work, enterprise, transition, Open RAN. >> The network and then the relationship with the subscribers. >> Those are the structural elements you see. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> What's the most important one you think, right now, that people are focused on? >> I mean, I think the first one, with work, that's an easy one to do, because there's not too much downside, right? I think we all learned that we could work productively from home. The reason public cloud matter there is because we had tools like Zoom and G Suite and we didn't need to be, I mean, imagine if that this had happened even 20 years ago, right? Broadband at the home wasn't ready, the tools weren't ready. I mean, it would have been, I mean a bigger disaster than it was, right? And so this is an opportunity to sort of ride this work from home wave that a lot of CEOs are saying, we're not coming back or we're going to have smaller offices. And all of those employees need fiber to their home. They need 5G at their home. I mean, if I'm a head of enterprise in a Telco, I am shifting my 5G message from like random applications or whatever, to be like, how are you getting big pipes to the home so your workers can be productive there? And that, I don't hear Telco's talking about that and that's a really big idea. >> You know, you say it's a no brainer, but it's interesting you had your buildings crumbling, which was great, very nice effect in the talk. I heard a executive, Wall Street executive the other day, talking about how, "My people will be back in the office. "I'm going to mandate vaccinations, they're going to be back "in the office, you work for me. "Even though it's an employee friendly environment "right now, I don't care". And I was shocked. I go, okay, this is just an old guy. But, and it's not just the fact that it's an old guy, old guard doing that because I take two examples of old guys, Michael Dell and Frank Slootman. >> Yeah. >> Right, Michael Dell, you know, hundred billion dollar company, Frank Slootman, hottest, you know, software company. Both of them, sort of agree. It's a no brainer. >> Yeah. >> Why should I spend all this money on buildings? And my people are going to be more productive. They love it, so. Why fight the fashion? >> Well, I think the office and I can talk about this for a long time and I know we don't have that much time, but on offices, it's a way to see when did you come in and when did you leave, and look over your shoulder and what we're working on. And that's what offices are for. Now, we tell ourselves it's about collaboration and all this other stuff. And you know, these guys are saying, "come back to the office." It's because they don't have an answer on how to manage productivity. What are you working on? Are you off, are you authentically working 40 hours a week? I want to see, I know if at least you're here, you're here. Now, you might be playing, you know, Minesweeper. You might be playing Minesweeper on your computer, but at least you were, your butt was at your computer. So yeah, I think this is a pivotal moment in work. I think Telcos could push it, to work from home. We'll get you the pipes, we'll get you the cloud-based tools to help manage productivity, to change in work style. >> Yeah, and we've covered this in theCube many times, about how software is going to enable this virtual first model, no one's actually built software for virtual first. I think that's going to happen. Again, back to your team software, but I want to ask you about software defined infrastructure. You mentioned O-RAN, and as software eats the world and eats infrastructure, you still need infrastructure. So, talk about the relationship of how you see O-RAN competing and winning with the balance of software versus the commodity argument. >> Yeah, and I think this is really where people get scared in Telco. I mean, authentically nervous, right. Where you're like, okay, really the public cloud is at that network edge, right? We're really going to like, who are we? It's an identity crisis. We're not the towers anymore. We're renting space, right? We're now dis-aggregating the network, putting the edge cloud right there and it's AWS or Google. Who are we, what do we do, are we networks? Are we a tech company? Right, and so I'm like, guys, you are your subscribers and you don't focus on that. I mean, it's kind of like a last thought. >> So you're like a therapist then too, not just an evangelist. >> I'm a little bit of a therapist. >> Okay, lay down on the couch, Telco. >> Let's talk about what your problems are. (laughs) >> They have tower issues. >> All seriousness, no but, the tower is changing is backhauling. Look at direct connects for instance. The rise of direct and killed the exchanges. I mean, broadband, backhaul, last mile, >> Yeah. >> Completely, still issues, >> Yeah. >> But it's going to software and so that's there. The other thing I want to get to quickly, I know we don't have a lot of time, is the love relationship you talk about with subscribers. We had Peter Adderton on, from a Boost Mobile, formerly Boost Mobile, earlier. He was saying, if you don't have a focus on the customer, then you're just selling minutes and that's it. >> Yeah. >> And his point was, they don't really care. >> Yeah. Let's talk about organizational energy, right? How much energy is contained within any organization, not just Telco, but any organization. To some of your people time is the hours they work per week. And then you think of that as a sack on how you're allocating your time and spending your time, right? And so I think they spend 50% of their time, maybe more, fighting servers, machines, the network, right? And having all these battles. How much of that organizational energy is dedicated to driving great subscriber experiences? And it just shrunk, right? And I think that's where the public cloud can really help them. Like ride the dragon. Let the dragon deal with some of this underlying stuff. So that you can ride a dragon, survey the land, focus on your subscriber and back to the software. Use software, just like the OTT players are doing. They are taking away your ARPU. They're siphoning your ARPU, 'cause they're providing a better customer experience. You need to compete on that dimension. Not the network, not the three Telcos in the country. You're competing again, WhatsApp, Apple, Amazon, Facebook. And you spent how much of your organizational energy to focus on that? Very small. >> And that's where digital platforms roll by, it uses the word platform, why? Because everybody wants to be a platform. Why do you want to be a platform? Because I want to be like Amazon, they're a platform. And you think about Netflix, right? It's not, you know, you don't think about Netflix UK or Netflix Spain, right? >> It's global. >> There's one Netflix >> Yeah, yeah. >> You don't think about their marketing department or their sales department or their customer service, you think about the app. >> Yeah. >> You know. One interface. And that's what digital platforms allow you to do. And granted, there's a lot of public policy to deal with, but if you're shooting satellites up in space, >> Yeah. >> You know, now, you own that space, right, global network. >> And what makes Netflix so good, I think, is that it knows you, right? It knows what you're watching and recommends things, and you're like, "Oh, I would like that, that's great." Who knows more about you than your mobile phone? Carry it everywhere you go, right? What you're watching, what you're doing, who you're calling, what time did you wake up? And right now all of that data we talked about a couple of days ago, it's trapped in siloed old systems. And like why do people think Google knows so much about you? Telco knows about you. And to start to use that to drive a great experience. >> And you've got a great relationship with Netflix. The relationship we have with our our carrier is to your admin, "can you call these guys? "I don't know, I lost the password, I can't get in". >> Right. >> It's like-- >> Or you get SIM hacked-- >> I don't have an hour and a half to call your call center 'cause you don't have a chat bot, right. >> I don't have time. >> Chat bot, right. I can't even do the chat bot because my problem is, you're like, I got to talk to someone. All of their systems are built with the intention of a human being on the other side, and there's all this awesome chat bot AI that works. >> Yeah. >> Set it free. >> Yeah, yeah, right. You almost rather go to the dentist, then calling your carrier. >> Well, we're going to wrap things up here on the keynote review. Did you achieve what you wanted to achieve? I mean, controversy, bold vision, leadership, also that came across, but people they know who you are now. You're out there and that's great news. >> Yeah. I think I rocked the Telco universe and I'm really, that was my goal, and I think I accomplish it so, very excited. >> Well, we love having you on theCUBE. It's great to have great conversations, not only are you dynamic and smart, you're causing a lot of controversy, in a good way and getting, waking people up. >> Making people talk, that's a start. >> And I think, the conversations are there. People are talking and having relationships on the ecosystem open, it's all there. Danielle Royston, you are a digital revolution, DR. Telco DR, thanks for coming to theCube. >> Thank you so much, always fun. >> Good to see you. >> Thanks. >> Of course, back to the Cloud City studios. Adam is going to take it from here and continue on day three of theCube. Adam in studio, thanks for having us and take it from here.

(upbeat music) >> Hey, we're back here in theCube. This is day three of our coverage right here in the middle of all the action of Cloud City at Mobile World Congress. This is the hit of the entire show in Barcelona, not only in person, but out on the interwebs virtually. This is a hybrid event. This is back to real life, and theCube is here. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante and D. R. is here, Danielle Royston. >> Totally. >> Welcome back to theCube for fourth time. now at the anchor desk, coming back. >> I don't know. It's been a busy day. It's been a busy week. It's been an awesome week. >> Dave: Feeling good? >> Oh, my god. >> You made the call. >> I made the call. You finished your podcast, what months ago? >> Yeah. >> Made the call. >> Made the call. You're on the right side of history. >> Right? And people were like, "It's going to be canceled. COVID won't be handled." Blahbity blah. >> She's crazy. >> And I'm like, nope. She's crazy. I'm okay with that. Right? But I'm like... >> Crazy good. >> Right, I'm like, I'm forward-looking in a lot of ways. And we were looking towards June, and we're like, "I think this is going to be the first event back. We're going to be able to do it." >> You know, the crazy one's commercial that Apple ran, probably one of the best commercials of all time. You can't ignore the crazy ones in a good way. You can't ignore what you're doing. And I think to me, what I'm so excited about is, 'cause we've been covering cloud. We're cloud bigots. We love the cloud, public cloud. We've been on that train from day one. But when you hear the interviews we did here on theCube and interviews that we talked about with the top people, Google, Amazon Web Services. We're talking about the top people, both technology leaders like Bill Vass and the people who run the Telecom Verticals like Alf, Alfonzo. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> Adolfo, I mean, Hernandez. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> We had Google's top networking executive. We had their industry leader in the telecom, Microsoft, and the Silicon. All are validating, and it's like surround sound to what you're saying here. And it cannot be ignored. >> I mean, we are coming to a big moment in Telco, right? And I mean, I've been saying that it's coming. I called 2021, the year of public cloud and Telco. It helped that Ericcson bailed. So thank you, Ericcson people. >> Dave: It was a gift. >> It was a gift. >> John: It really was. >> It really was a gift. And it was not just for me, but I think also for the vendors in the booth. I mean, we have a Cloud City army, right? Here we go. Let's start marching. And it's awesome. >> He reminds me of that baseball player that took a break 'cause he had a hangover and Cal Ripken. >> Cal Ripken, right, yeah, yeah. What was that guy's name? >> Did it really happen? >> Yeah, he took a break and... >> The new guy stepped in? >> Yeah, and so we'll go to Cal Ripken. >> No, no, so before it was it? Lou Gehrig. >> Lou Gehrig, yeah. >> Right, so Lou Gehrig was nobody. And we can't remember the guy's name. Nobody knows the guy's name. >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> What was that guy's name? Nobody knows. Oh, 'cause Lou Garrett, he got hurt. >> Danielle: And Lou Gehrig stepped in. >> He sat out, and Lou Gehrig replaced him. >> Danielle: Love it. >> And never heard of him again. >> Danielle: I'll take that. >> Never missed a game. Never missed a game for his entire career. So again, this is what Ericcson did. They just okay, take a break and... >> But I mean, it's been great. Again, I had a great day yesterday. My keynote was delivered. Things are going well with the booth. We had Jon Bon Jovi. I mean, that was just epic, and it was acoustic, and it was right after lockdown. I think everyone was really excited to be there. But I was talking to a vendor that said we'd been able to accomplish in three days what normally it would take three years from a sales funnel perspective. I mean, that is, that's big, and that's not me. That's not my organization. That's other organizations that are benefiting from this energy. Oh, that's awesome. >> The post-isolation economy has become a living metaphor for transformation. And I've been trying to sort of grok and put the pieces together as to how this thing progresses. And my interview with Portaone, in particular, >> Danielle: Yeah. >> really brought it into focus for me, anyway. I'd love to get your thoughts. One of the things we haven't talked much about is public policy. And I think about all the time, all the discussion in the United States about infrastructure, this is critical infrastructure, right? >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And the spectrum is a country like South Africa saying, "Come on in. We want to open up." >> Danielle: Yeah. >> "We want to innovate." And to me that's to me, that's the model for these tier two and tier three telcos that are just going to disrupt the big guys. Whereas, you know, China, may be using the other end of the spectrum, very controlling, but it's the former that is going to adopt the cloud sooner. It's going to completely transform the next decade. >> Yeah, I think this is a great technology for a smaller challenger CSP that still is a large successful company to challenge the incumbents that are, they are dinosaurs too. They move a little bit slow. And maybe if you're a little bit faster, quicker dinosaur you'll survive longer. Maybe it will be able to transform and a public cloud enables that. And I think, you know, I'm playing the long game here, right? >> Dave: Yeah. >> Is public cloud ready for every telco in every corner of the world? No. And there's a couple of things that are barriers to that. We don't really talk about the downsides, and so maybe we sort of wrap up with, there are challenges, and I acknowledge there are challenges. You know, in some cases there are data regulations and issues, right? And you can't, right? There's not a hyperscaler in your country, right? And so you're having a little bit of challenges, but you trend this out over 10 years and then pace it with the hyperscalers are building new data centers. They're each at 25 plus each, plus or minus a few, right? They're marching along, and you trend this out over 10 years, I think one of two things happens. Your data regulations are eased or you a hyperscaler appears in a place you can use it. And those points converge, and hopefully the software's there, and that's my effort. And, yeah. >> You know what's an interesting trend, D. R., John? That is maybe a harbinger to this. You just mentioned something. If the hyperscalers might not have a presence in a country, you know what they're doing? And our data shows this, I do that weekly series "Breaking Analysis," and the data, OpenStack was popping up. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> Like where does OpenStack come from? Well, guess what. When you cut the data, it was telcos using open source to build clouds in regions where there was no hyperscaler. >> Where it didn't exist, yeah. >> So it's a-- >> Gap-filler. >> Yeah, it's a gap-filler. It's a Band-aid. >> But I think this is where like Outpost is such a great idea, right? Like getting Outposts, and I think Microsoft has the ability to do this as well, Google less so, right. They're not providing the staff. They're doing Anthos, so you're still managing this, the rack, but they're giving you the ability to tap into those services. But I was talking to a CE, a CTO in Bolivia. He was like, "We have data privacy issues in our country. There's no hyperscaler." Not sure Bolivia is like next on the list for AWS, right? But he's like, "I'm going to build my own public cloud." And I'm like, "Why would you do that when you can just use Outposts?" And then when your data regulations release or there's a, they get to Bolivia, you can switch and you're on the stack and you're ready to go. I think that's what you should do. You should totally do that. >> Yeah, and one of the things that's come up here on the interviews and theCube and here, the show, is that there are risk takers and innovators and there's operators. And this has been the consistent theme around, yeah, the on-premises world. You mentioned this regulation reasons and/or some workflows just have to be on premise for security reasons, whatever. That's the corner case. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> But the operating model of the technology architecture is shifted. >> Danielle: Yep. >> And that reality, I don't think, is debatable. So I find it. I've got to ask you this because I'm really curious. I know you get a lot of people steering 'ya, oh the public cloud's just a hosting, but why aren't people getting this architectural shift? I mean, you mentioned Outpost, and Wavelength, which Amazon has, is a game changer. It's Amazon Cloud at the hub. >> Yeah, at the edge, yeah. >> Okay, that's a low latency again, low-hanging fruit applications, robotics, whatnot. I mean, that's an architectural dot that's been connected. >> Yeah. >> Why aren't people getting it? >> In our industry, I think it is a lot of not invented here syndrome, right? And that's a very sort of nineties thought, and I have been advocating stand on the shoulders of the greatest technologists in the world. Right? And you know, there is a geopolitical US thing. I think we lived through a presidency that had a sort of nationalistic approach and a lot of those conversations pop up, but I've also looked to these guys and I'm like, you still have your Huawei kit installed, and there's concerns with that, too. So, and you picked it because of cost. And it's really hard to switch off of. >> John: Yeah. >> So give me a break with your public cloud USA stuff, right? You can use it. You're just making excuses. You're just afraid. What are you afraid of? The HR implications? Let's talk about that, right? And the minute I take it there, conversation changes. >> I talked to Teresa Carlson when she was running the public sector at AWS. She's now president of Splunk. I call her a Renaissance woman. She's been a great leader. In public sector there's been this weird little pocket of AWS where it's, I guess, a sales division, but it's still its own company. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> And she just did the CIA deal. The DOD and the public sector partnerships are now private, a lot more private relationships. So it's not like just governments. You mentioned government and national security and these things. You start to see the ecosystem, not, not just be about companies, government and private sector. So this whole vibe of the telecomm being regulated, unregulated, unbundled is an interesting kind of theory. What's your thoughts and reactions to this kind melting pot of ecosystem change and evolution? >> Yeah, I mean, I think there's a very nationalistic approach by the telcos, right? They sort of think about the countries that they operate in. There's a couple of groups that go across multiple countries, but can there be a global telco? Can that happen, right? Just like we say, you were saying it earlier, Netflix. Right? You didn't say Netflix, UK, right? And so can we have a global telco, right? That is challenging on a lot of different levels. But think about that in a public cloud starts to enable that idea. Right? Elon Musk is going to get Mars. >> Dave: Yep. >> John: Yeah. >> You need a planetary level telco, and I think that day is, I mean, I don't think it's tomorrow, but I think that's like 10, 20 years away. >> You're done. We're going to see it start this decade. It's already starting. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> But we're going to see the fruits of that dividend. >> Danielle: Right, yeah. >> I got to ask you. You're a student of the industry and you got so much experience. It's great to have you on theCube and chat about, riff about, these things, but the the classic "Who's ready for disruption?" question comes up. And I think there's no doubt that the telcos, as an industry, has been slow moving, and the role and the importance has changed. People need the need to have the internet access. They need to access. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> So and you've got the Edge. Now applications are now running on a, since the iPhone 14 years ago, as you pointed out, people now are interested in how packets move. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> That's fast, whether it's a doctor or an emergency worker or someone. >> What would we have done in 2020 without the internet and broadband and our mobile phones? I mean. >> Dave: We would have been miserable. >> You know, I think about 1920 when the Spanish flu pandemic hit a hundred years ago. Those guys did not have mobile phones, and they must have been bored, right? I mean, what are you going to do? Right? And so, yeah, I think, I think last year really moved a lot of thinking forward in this respect, so. >> Yeah, it's always like that animal out in the Serengeti that gets taken down, you know, by the cheetah or the lion. How do you know when someone is going to be disrupted? What's the, what's the tell sign in your mind? You look at the telco landscape, what is someone waiting to be disrupted or replaced look like? >> Know what? They're ostriches. Ostriches, how do you say that word right? They stick their head in the sand. Like they don't want to talk about it. La, la, la, I don't want to. I don't want to think about it. You know, they bring up all these like roadblocks, and I'm like, okay, I'm going to come visit you in another six months to a year, and let's see what happens when the guys that are moving fast that are open-minded to this. And it's, I mean, when you start to use the public cloud, you don't like turn it on overnight. You start experimenting, right? You start. You take an application that is non-threatening. You have, I mean, these guys are running thousands of apps inside their data centers. Pick some boring ones. Pick some old ones that no one likes. Move that to the public cloud. Play with it, right? I'm not talking about moving your whole network overnight tomorrow. You got to learn. You have no, I mean, very little talent in the telco that know how to program against the AWS stack. Start hiring. Start doing it. And you're going to start to learn about the compensation. And I used to do compensation, right? I spent a lot of time in HR, right? The compensation points and structures, and they can bear AWS and Google versus a telco. You want Telco stock? Do you want Google stock? >> John: Right, where do you want to go? >> Right? Right? And so you need to start. Like that's going to challenge the HR organization in terms of compensate. How do we compensate our people when they're learning these new, valuable skills? >> When you think about disruption, you know, the master or the professor of disruption, Clay Christensen, one of the best lectures he ever gave is we were at Cambridge, and he gave a lecture on the steel industry and he was describing it. It was like four layers of value in the steel industry, the value chain. It started with rebar, like the lowest end. Right? >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> And the telco's actually the opposite. So, you know, when the international companies came in, they went after rebar, and the higher end steel companies said, "Nah, let them have it." >> Danielle: Let it go. >> "That's the low margin stuff." And then eventually when they got up to the high end, they all got killed. >> Danielle: It was over, yeah. >> The telcos are the opposite. They're like, you know, in the connectivity, and they're hanging on to that because it's so big, but all the high value stuff, it's already gone to the over-the-top players, right? >> It's being eaten away. And I'm like, "What is going to wake you guys up to realize those are your competitors?" That's where the battle is, right? >> Dave: That's really where the value is. >> The battle of the bastards. You're there by yourself, the Game of Thrones, and they're coming at you. >> John: You need a dragon. >> What are you doing about it? >> I need a dragon. I need a dragon to compete in this market. Riding on the dragon would be a good strategy. >> I know. I was just watching. 'Cause I have a podcast. I have a podcast called "Telco in 20," and we always put like little nuggets in the show notes. I personally review them. I was just reviewing the one for the keynote that we're putting out. And I had a dragon in my keynote, right? It was a really great moment. It was really fun to do. But there's, I don't know if you guys are Game of Thrones fans. >> Dave: Oh, yeah. >> John: For sure. >> Right? But there's a great moment when Daenerys guts her dragons, the baby dragons, and she takes over the Unsullied Army. Right? And it's just this, right? Like all of a sudden, the tables turn in an instant where she has nothing, and she's like on her quest, right? I'm on a quest. >> John: Comes out of the fire. >> Right, comes out of the fire. The unburnt, right? She has her dragons, right? She has them hatch. She takes over the Unsullied Army, right? Slays and starts her march, right? And I'm like, we're putting that clip into the show notes because I think that's where we are. I think I've hatched some dragons, right? The Cloud City Army, let's go, let's go take on Telco. >> John: Well, I mean to me... >> Easy. >> I definitely have made it happen because I heard many people talking about cloud. This is turning into a cloud show. The question is, when does this be, going to be a cloud show? You know it's just Cloud City is a big section of the show. I mean, all the big players are behind it. >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah. >> Amazon Web Services, Google, Azure, Ecosystem, startups thinking differently, but everyone's agreeing, "Why aren't we doing this?" >> I think, like I said, I mean, people are like, you're such a visionary. And how did, why do you think this will work? I'm like, it's worked in every other industry. Am I really that visionary? And like, these are the three best tech companies in the world. Like, are you kidding me? And so I think we've shown the momentum here. I think we're looking forward to 2022, you know? And do we see 2022, you get to start planning this the minute we get back. Right? >> John: Yeah. >> Like I wouldn't recommend doing this in a hundred days again. That was a very painful, but you know, February, I was, there's a sign inside NWC, February 28th, right? We're talking seven months. You got to get going now. >> John: Let's get on the phone. (John and Dave talking at the same time) >> I mean, I think you're right on. I mean, you know, remember Skype in the early days? >> Danielle: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> It wasn't regional. >> Danielle: Yeah. >> It was just plug into the internet, right? >> Danielle: It was just Skype. It was just WhatsApp. >> Well, this great location, and if you can get a shot, guys, of the people behind us. I don't know if you can. If you're watching, check out the scene here. It's winding down. A lot of people having happy hour now. This is a social construct here at Cloud City. Not only is it chock full of information, reporting that we're doing and getting all the data and with the presentations on the main stage with Adam and the studio and the team. This is a place where people are meeting and there's deals being done face to face, intimate relationships. The best of the best are here. They make the trek, so there's been a successful formula. Of course theCube is in the middle of all the action, which we love. We're excited to be back. I want to thank you personally while we have you on stage here. >> I want to thank you guys and the crew. The crew has been amazing turning out videos on short order. We have all these crews in different cities. It's our own show has been virtual. You know, Adam's at Bristol, right? We're here. This was an experiment. We talked about this a hundred days ago, 90 days ago. Could we get theCube there and do the show, but also theCube. >> You are a visionary. And you said, made for TV hybrid event with your team, reduced television shows, theCube. We're digital. We love you guys. Great alignment, but it's magical because the content doesn't end here. The show might end. They might break down the beautiful plants and the exhibits, but the community is going to continue. The content and the conversations. >> Yeah. >> So. >> We are looking forward to it and. >> Yeah, super-glad, super-glad we did this. >> Awesome. Well, any final moments that you would like to share? And the last two minutes we have, favorite moments, observations, funny things that have happened to you, weird things that have happened to you. Share something that people might not know or a favorite moment. >> I think, I mean I don't know that people know we have a 3D printer in the coffee shops, and so you can upload any picture, and there are three 3D printing coffee art, right? So I've been seeing lots of social posts around people uploading their, their logos and things like that. I think Jon Bon Jovi, he was super-thankful to be back. He thanked me personally two different times of like, I'm just glad to be out in front of people. And I think just even just the people walking around, thank you for being brave, thank you for coming back. You've helped Barcelona, and we're happy to be together even if it is with masks. It's hard to do business with masks on. Everyone's happy and psyched. >> The one thing that people cannot do relative to you is they cannot ignore you. You are making a great big waves. >> Danielle: I shout pretty loud. It's kind of hard to ignore me. >> Okay, you're making a great big wave. You're on the right side, we believe, of history. Public cloud is driving the bus down main street of Cloud City, and if people don't get out of the way, they will be under the bus. >> And like I said, in my keynote, it's go time. Let's do it. >> Okay, thank you so much for all your tension and mission behind the cloud and the success of... >> Danielle: We'll do it again. We're going to do it again soon. >> Ketogi's hundred million dollar investment. Be the CEO of Togi as we follow that progress. And of course, Telco D. R. Danielle Royston, the digital revolution. Thanks for coming on theCube. >> Thank you, guys. It was super-fun. Thank you so much. >> This is theCube. I'm John Furrier with Dave Vellante. We're going to send it back to Adam in the studio. Thanks the team here. (Danielle clapping and cheering) I want to thank the team, everyone here. Adam is great. Chloe, great working with you guys. Awesome. And what a great crew. >> So great. >> Thank you everybody. That's it for theCube here on the last day, Wednesday, of theCube. Stay tuned for tomorrow, more action on the main stage here in Cloud City. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is braking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> Database is the heart of enterprise computing. The market is both exploding and it's evolving. The major force is transforming the space include Cloud and data, of course, but also new workloads, advanced memory and IO capabilities, new processor types, a massive push towards simplicity, new data sharing and governance models, and a spate of venture investment. Snowflake stands out as the gold standard for operational excellence and go to market execution. The company has attracted the attention of customers, investors, and competitors and everyone from entrenched players to upstarts once in the act. Hello everyone and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis, we'll share our most current thinking on the database marketplace and dig into Snowflake's execution. Some of its challenges and we'll take a look at how others are making moves to solve customer problems and try to get a piece of the growing database pie. Let's look at some of the factors that are driving market momentum. First, customers want lower license costs. They want simplicity. They want to avoid database sprawl. They want to run anywhere and manage new data types. These needs often are divergent and they pull vendors and technologies in different direction. It's really hard for any one platform to accommodate every customer need. The market is large and it's growing. Gardner has it at around 60 to 65 billion with a CAGR of somewhere around 20% over the next five years. But the market, as we know it is being redefined. Traditionally, databases have served two broad use cases, OLTP or transactions and reporting like data warehouses. But a diversity of workloads and new architectures and innovations have given rise to a number of new types of databases to accommodate all these diverse customer needs. Many billions have been spent over the last several years in venture money and it continues to pour in. Let me just give you some examples. Snowflake prior to its IPO, raised around 1.4 billion. Redis Labs has raised more than 1/2 billion dollars so far, Cockroach Labs, more than 350 million, Couchbase, 250 million, SingleStore formerly MemSQL, 238 million, Yellowbrick Data, 173 million. And if you stretch the definition of database a little bit to including low-code or no-code, Airtable has raised more than 600 million. And that's by no means a complete list. Now, why is all this investment happening? Well, in a large part, it's due to the TAM. The TAM is huge and it's growing and it's being redefined. Just how big is this market? Let's take a look at a chart that we've shown previously. We use this chart to Snowflakes TAM, and it focuses mainly on the analytics piece, but we'll use it here to really underscore the market potential. So the actual database TAM is larger than this, we think. Cloud and Cloud-native technologies have changed the way we think about databases. Virtually 100% of the database players that they're are in the market have pivoted to a Cloud first strategy. And many like Snowflake, they're pretty dogmatic and have a Cloud only strategy. Databases has historically been very difficult to manage, they're really sensitive to latency. So that means they require a lot of tuning. Cloud allows you to throw virtually infinite resources on demand and attack performance problems and scale very quickly, minimizing the complexity and tuning nuances. This idea, this layer of data as a service we think of it as a staple of digital transformation. Is this layer that's forming to support things like data sharing across ecosystems and the ability to build data products or data services. It's a fundamental value proposition of Snowflake and one of the most important aspects of its offering. Snowflake tracks a metric called edges, which are external connections in its data Cloud. And it claims that 15% of its total shared connections are edges and that's growing at 33% quarter on quarter. This notion of data sharing is changing the way people think about data. We use terms like data as an asset. This is the language of the 2010s. We don't share our assets with others, do we? No, we protect them, we secure or them, we even hide them. But we absolutely don't want to share those assets but we do want to share our data. I had a conversation recently with Forrester analyst, Michelle Goetz. And we both agreed we're going to scrub data as an asset from our phrasiology. Increasingly, people are looking at sharing as a way to create, as I said, data products or data services, which can be monetized. This is an underpinning of Zhamak Dehghani's concept of a data mesh, make data discoverable, shareable and securely governed so that we can build data products and data services that can be monetized. This is where the TAM just explodes and the market is redefining. And we think is in the hundreds of billions of dollars. Let's talk a little bit about the diversity of offerings in the marketplace. Again, databases used to be either transactional or analytic. The bottom lines and top lines. And this chart here describe those two but the types of databases, you can see the middle of mushrooms, just looking at this list, blockchain is of course a specialized type of database and it's also finding its way into other database platforms. Oracle is notable here. Document databases that support JSON and graph data stores that assist in visualizing data, inference from multiple different sources. That's is one of the ways in which adtech has taken off and been so effective. Key Value stores, log databases that are purpose-built, machine learning to enhance insights, spatial databases to help build the next generation of products, the next automobile, streaming databases to manage real time data flows and time series databases. We might've missed a few, let us know if you think we have, but this is a kind of pretty comprehensive list that is somewhat mind boggling when you think about it. And these unique requirements, they've spawned tons of innovation and companies. Here's a small subset on this logo slide. And this is by no means an exhaustive list, but you have these companies here which have been around forever like Oracle and IBM and Teradata and Microsoft, these are the kind of the tier one relational databases that have matured over the years. And they've got properties like atomicity, consistency, isolation, durability, what's known as ACID properties, ACID compliance. Some others that you may or may not be familiar with, Yellowbrick Data, we talked about them earlier. It's going after the best price, performance and analytics and optimizing to take advantage of both hybrid installations and the latest hardware innovations. SingleStore, as I said, formerly known as MemSQL is a very high end analytics and transaction database, supports mixed workloads, extremely high speeds. We're talking about trillions of rows per second that could be ingested in query. Couchbase with hybrid transactions and analytics, Redis Labs, open source, no SQL doing very well, as is Cockroach with distributed SQL, MariaDB with its managed MySQL, Mongo and document database has a lot of momentum, EDB, which supports open source Postgres. And if you stretch the definition a bit, Splunk, for log database, why not? ChaosSearch, really interesting startup that leaves data in S-3 and is going after simplifying the ELK stack, New Relic, they have a purpose-built database for application performance management and we probably could have even put Workday in the mix as it developed a specialized database for its apps. Of course, we can't forget about SAP with how not trying to pry customers off of Oracle. And then the big three Cloud players, AWS, Microsoft and Google with extremely large portfolios of database offerings. The spectrum of products in this space is very wide, with you've got AWS, which I think we're up to like 16 database offerings, all the way to Oracle, which has like one database to do everything not withstanding MySQL because it owns MySQL got that through the Sun Acquisition. And it recently, it made some innovations there around the heat wave announcement. But essentially Oracle is investing to make its database, Oracle database run any workload. While AWS takes the approach of the right tool for the right job and really focuses on the primitives for each database. A lot of ways to skin a cat in this enormous and strategic market. So let's take a look at the spending data for the names that make it into the ETR survey. Not everybody we just mentioned will be represented because they may not have quite the market presence of the ends in the survey, but ETR that capture a pretty nice mix of players. So this chart here, it's one of the favorite views that we like to share quite often. It shows the database players across the 1500 respondents in the ETR survey this past quarter and it measures their net score. That's spending momentum and is shown on the vertical axis and market share, which is the pervasiveness in the data set is on the horizontal axis. The Snowflake is notable because it's been hovering around 80% net score since the survey started picking them up. Anything above 40%, that red line there, is considered by us to be elevated. Microsoft and AWS, they also stand out because they have both market presence and they have spending velocity with their platforms. Oracle is very large but it doesn't have the spending momentum in the survey because nearly 30% of Oracle installations are spending less, whereas only 22% are spending more. Now as a caution, this survey doesn't measure dollar spent and Oracle will be skewed toward the big customers with big budgets. So you got to consider that caveat when evaluating this data. IBM is in a similar position although its market share is not keeping up with Oracle's. Google, they've got great tech especially with BigQuery and it has elevated momentum. So not a bad spot to be in although I'm sure it would like to be closer to AWS and Microsoft on the horizontal axis, so it's got some work to do there. And some of the others we mentioned earlier, like MemSQL, Couchbase. As shown MemSQL here, they're now SingleStore. Couchbase, Reddis, Mongo, MariaDB, all very solid scores on the vertical axis. Cloudera just announced that it was selling to private equity and that will hopefully give it some time to invest in this platform and get off the quarterly shot clock. MapR was acquired by HPE and it's part of HPE's Ezmeral platform, their data platform which doesn't yet have the market presence in the survey. Now, something that is interesting in looking at in Snowflakes earnings last quarter, is this laser focused on large customers. This is a hallmark of Frank Slootman and Mike Scarpelli who I know they don't have a playbook but they certainly know how to go whale hunting. So this chart isolates the data that we just showed you to the global 1000. Note that both AWS and Snowflake go up higher on the X-axis meaning large customers are spending at a faster rate for these two companies. The previous chart had an end of 161 for Snowflake, and a 77% net score. This chart shows the global 1000, in the end there for Snowflake is 48 accounts and the net score jumps to 85%. We're not going to show it here but when you isolate the ETR data, nice you can just cut it, when you isolate it on the fortune 1000, the end for Snowflake goes to 59 accounts in the data set and Snowflake jumps another 100 basis points in net score. When you cut the data by the fortune 500, the Snowflake N goes to 40 accounts and the net score jumps another 200 basis points to 88%. And when you isolate on the fortune 100 accounts is only 18 there but it's still 18, their net score jumps to 89%, almost 90%. So it's very strong confirmation that there's a proportional relationship between larger accounts and spending momentum in the ETR data set. So Snowflakes large account strategy appears to be working. And because we think Snowflake is sticky, this probably is a good sign for the future. Now we've been talking about net score, it's a key measure in the ETR data set, so we'd like to just quickly remind you what that is and use Snowflake as an example. This wheel chart shows the components of net score, that lime green is new adoptions. 29% of the customers in the ETR dataset that are new to Snowflake. That's pretty impressive. 50% of the customers are spending more, that's the forest green, 20% are flat, that's the gray, and only 1%, the pink, are spending less. And 0% zero or replacing Snowflake, no defections. What you do here to get net scores, you subtract the red from the green and you get a net score of 78%. Which is pretty sick and has been sick as in good sick and has been steady for many, many quarters. So that's how the net score methodology works. And remember, it typically takes Snowflake customers many months like six to nine months to start consuming it's services at the contracted rate. So those 29% new adoptions, they're not going to kick into high gear until next year, so that bodes well for future revenue. Now, it's worth taking a quick snapshot at Snowflakes most recent quarter, there's plenty of stuff out there that you can you can google and get a summary but let's just do a quick rundown. The company's product revenue run rate is now at 856 million they'll surpass $1 billion on a run rate basis this year. The growth is off the charts very high net revenue retention. We've explained that before with Snowflakes consumption pricing model, they have to account for retention differently than what a SaaS company. Snowflake added 27 net new $1 million accounts in the quarter and claims to have more than a hundred now. It also is just getting its act together overseas. Slootman says he's personally going to spend more time in Europe, given his belief, that the market is huge and they can disrupt it and of course he's from the continent. He was born there and lived there and gross margins expanded, do in a large part to renegotiation of its Cloud costs. Welcome back to that in a moment. Snowflake it's also moving from a product led growth company to one that's more focused on core industries. Interestingly media and entertainment is one of the largest along with financial services and it's several others. To me, this is really interesting because Disney's example that Snowflake often puts in front of its customers as a reference. And it seems to me to be a perfect example of using data and analytics to both target customers and also build so-called data products through data sharing. Snowflake has to grow its ecosystem to live up to its lofty expectations and indications are that large SIS are leaning in big time. Deloitte cross the $100 million in deal flow in the quarter. And the balance sheet's looking good. Thank you very much with $5 billion in cash. The snarks are going to focus on the losses, but this is all about growth. This is a growth story. It's about customer acquisition, it's about adoption, it's about loyalty and it's about lifetime value. Now, as I said at the IPO, and I always say this to young people, don't buy a stock at the IPO. There's probably almost always going to be better buying opportunities ahead. I'm not always right about that, but I often am. Here's a chart of Snowflake's performance since IPO. And I have to say, it's held up pretty well. It's trading above its first day close and as predicted there were better opportunities than day one but if you have to make a call from here. I mean, don't take my stock advice, do your research. Snowflake they're priced to perfection. So any disappointment is going to be met with selling. You saw that the day after they beat their earnings last quarter because their guidance in revenue growth,. Wasn't in the triple digits, it sort of moderated down to the 80% range. And they pointed, they pointed to a new storage compression feature that will lower customer costs and consequently, it's going to lower their revenue. I swear, I think that that before earnings calls, Scarpelli sits back he's okay, what kind of creative way can I introduce the dampen enthusiasm for the guidance. Now I'm not saying lower storage costs will translate into lower revenue for a period of time. But look at dropping storage prices, customers are always going to buy more, that's the way the storage market works. And stuff like did allude to that in all fairness. Let me introduce something that people in Silicon Valley are talking about, and that is the Cloud paradox for SaaS companies. And what is that? I was a clubhouse room with Martin Casado of Andreessen when I first heard about this. He wrote an article with Sarah Wang, calling it to question the merits of SaaS companies sticking with Cloud at scale. Now the basic premise is that for startups in early stages of growth, the Cloud is a no brainer for SaaS companies, but at scale, the cost of Cloud, the Cloud bill approaches 50% of the cost of revenue, it becomes an albatross that stifles operating leverage. Their conclusion ended up saying that as much as perhaps as much as the back of the napkin, they admitted that, but perhaps as much as 1/2 a trillion dollars in market cap is being vacuumed away by the hyperscalers that could go to the SaaS providers as cost savings from repatriation. And that Cloud repatriation is an inevitable path for large SaaS companies at scale. I was particularly interested in this as I had recently put on a post on the Cloud repatriation myth. I think in this instance, there's some merit to their conclusions. But I don't think it necessarily bleeds into traditional enterprise settings. But for SaaS companies, maybe service now has it right running their own data centers or maybe a hybrid approach to hedge bets and save money down the road is prudent. What caught my attention in reading through some of the Snowflake docs, like the S-1 in its most recent 10-K were comments regarding long-term purchase commitments and non-cancelable contracts with Cloud companies. And the companies S-1, for example, there was disclosure of $247 million in purchase commitments over a five plus year period. And the company's latest 10-K report, that same line item jumped to 1.8 billion. Now Snowflake is clearly managing these costs as it alluded to when its earnings call. But one has to wonder, at some point, will Snowflake follow the example of say Dropbox which Andreessen used in his blog and start managing its own IT? Or will it stick with the Cloud and negotiate hard? Snowflake certainly has the leverage. It has to be one of Amazon's best partners and customers even though it competes aggressively with Redshift but on the earnings call, CFO Scarpelli said, that Snowflake was working on a new chip technology to dramatically increase performance. What the heck does that mean? Is this Snowflake is not becoming a hardware company? So I going to have to dig into that a little bit and find out what that it means. I'm guessing, it means that it's taking advantage of ARM-based processes like graviton, which many ISVs ar allowing their software to run on that lower cost platform. Or maybe there's some deep dark in the weeds secret going on inside Snowflake, but I doubt it. We're going to leave all that for there for now and keep following this trend. So it's clear just in summary that Snowflake they're the pace setter in this new exciting world of data but there's plenty of room for others. And they still have a lot to prove. For instance, one customer in ETR, CTO round table express skepticism that Snowflake will live up to its hype because its success is going to lead to more competition from well-established established players. This is a common theme you hear it all the time. It's pretty easy to reach that conclusion. But my guess is this the exact type of narrative that fuels Slootman and sucked him back into this game of Thrones. That's it for now, everybody. Remember, these episodes they're all available as podcasts, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search braking analysis podcast and please subscribe to series. Check out ETR his website at etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikinbon.com and siliconangle.com. You can get in touch with me, Email is David.vellante@siliconangle.com. You can DM me at DVelante on Twitter or comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week everybody, be well and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From the Cube's studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from The Cube and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Exactly one week after Pat Gelsinger's announcement of his plans to reinvent Intel. Arm announced version nine of its architecture and laid out its vision for the next decade. We believe this vision is extremely strong as it combines an end-to-end capability from Edge to Cloud, to the data center, to the home and everything in between. Arms aspirations are ambitious and powerful. Leveraging its business model, ecosystem and software compatibility with previous generations. Hello every one and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. And this breaking analysis will explain why we think this announcement is so important and what it means for Intel and the broader technology landscape. We'll also share with you some feedback that we received from the Cube Community on last week's episode and a little inside baseball on how Intel, IBM, Samsung, TSMC and the U.S. government might be thinking about the shifting landscape of semiconductor technology. Now, there were two notable announcements this week that were directly related to Intel's announcement of March 23rd. The Armv9 news and TSMC's plans to invest a $100 billion in chip manufacturing and development over the next three years. That is a big number. It appears to tramp Intel's plan $20 billion investment to launch two new fabs in the U.S. starting in 2024. You may remember back in 2019, Samsung pledged to invest a $116 billion to diversify its production beyond memory trip, memory chips. Why are all these companies getting so aggressive? And won't this cause a glut in chips? Well, first, China looms large and aims to dominate its local markets, which in turn is going to confer advantages globally. The second, there's a huge chip shortage right now. And the belief is that it's going to continue through the decade and possibly beyond. We are seeing a new inflection point in the demand as we discussed last week. Stemming from digital, IOT, cloud, autos in new use cases in the home as so well presented by Sarjeet Johal in our community. As to the glut, these manufacturers believe that demand will outstrip supply indefinitely. And I understand that a lack of manufacturing capacity is actually more deadly than an oversupply. Look, if there's a glut, manufacturers can cut production and take the financial hit. Whereas capacity constraints mean you can miss entire cycles of growth and really miss out on the demand and the cost reductions. So, all these manufacturers are going for it. Now let's talk about Arm, its approach and the announcements that it made this week. Now last week, we talked about how Pat Gelsinger his vision of a system on package was an attempt to leapfrog system on chip SOC, while Arm is taking a similar system approach. But in our view, it's even broader than the vision laid out by Pat at Intel. Arm is targeting a wide variety of use cases that are shown here. Arm's fundamental philosophy is that the future will require highly specialized chips and Intel as you recall from Pat's announcement, would agree. But Arm historically takes an ecosystem approach that is different from Intel's model. Arm is all about enabling the production of specialized chips to really fit a specific application. For example, think about the amount of AI going on iPhones. They move if I remember from fingerprint to face recognition. This requires specialized neural processing units, NPUs that are designed by Apple for that particular use case. Arm is facilitating the creation of these specialized chips to be designed and produced by the ecosystem. Intel on the other hand has historically taken a one size fits all approach. Built around the x86. The Intel's design has always been about improving the processor. For example, in terms of speed, density, adding vector processing to accommodate AI, et cetera. And Intel does all the design and the manufacturing in any specialization for the ecosystem is done by Intel. Much of the value, that's added from the ecosystem is frankly been bending metal or adding displays or other features at the margin. But, the advantage is that the x86 architecture is well understood. It's consistent, reliable, and let's face it. Most enterprise software runs on x86. So, but very, very different models historically, which we heard from Gelsinger last week they're going to change with a new trusted foundry strategy. Now let's go through an example that might help explain the power of Arm's model. Let's say, your AWS and you're doing graviton. Designing graviton and graviton2. Or Apple, designing the M1 chip, or Tesla designing its own chip, or any other company in in any one of these use cases that are shown here. Tesla is a really good example. In order to optimize for video processing, Tesla needed to add specialized code firmware in the NPU for it's specific use case within autos. It was happy to take off the shelf CPU or GPU or whatever, and leverage Arm's standards there. And then it added its own value in the NPU. So the advantage of this model is Tesla could go from tape out in less or, or, or or in less than a year versus get the tape out in less than a year versus what would normally take many years. Arm is, think of Arm is like customize a Lego blocks that enable unique value add by the ecosystem with a much faster time to market. So like I say, the Tesla goes from logical tape out if you will, to Samsung and then says, okay run this against your manufacturing process. And it should all work as advertised by Arm. Tesla, interestingly, just as an aside chose the 14 nanometer process to keep its costs down. It didn't need the latest and greatest density. Okay, so you can see big difference in philosophies historically between Arm and Intel. And you can see Intel vectoring toward the Arm model based on what Gelsinger said last week for its foundry business. Essentially it has to. Now, Arm announced a new Arm architecture, Armv9. v9 is backwards compatible with previous generations. Perhaps Arm learned from Intel's failed, Itanium effort for those remember that word. Had no backward compatibility and it really floundered. As well, Arm adds some additional capabilities. And today we're going to focus on the two areas that have highlighted, machine learning piece and security. I'll take note of the call out, 300 billion chips. That's Arm's vision. That's a lot. And we've said, before, Arm's way for volumes are 10X those of x86. Volume, we sound like a broken record. Volume equals cost reduction. We'll come back to that a little bit later. Now let's have a word on AI and machine learning. Arm is betting on AI and ML. Big as are many others. And this chart really shows why, it's a graphic that shows ETR data and spending momentum and pervasiveness in the dataset across all the different sectors that ETR tracks within its taxonomy. Note that ML/AI gets the top spot on the vertical axis, which represents net score. That's a measure of spending momentum or spending velocity. The horizontal axis is market share presence in the dataset. And we give this sector four stars to signify it's consistent lead in the data. So pretty reasonable bet by Arm. But the other area that we're going to talk about is security. And its vision day, Arm talked about confidential compute architecture and these things called realms. Note in the left-hand side, showing data traveling all over the different use cases and around the world and the call-out from the CISO below, it's a large public airline CISO that spoke at an ETR Venn round table. And this individual noted that the shifting end points increase the threat vectors. We all know that. Arm said something that really resonated. Specifically, they said today, there's far too much trust on the OS and the hypervisor that are running these applications. And their broad access to data is a weakness. Arm's concept of realms as shown in the right-hand side, underscores the company strategy to remove the assumption that privileged software. Like the hypervisor needs to be able to see the data. So by creating realms, in a virtualized multi-tenant environment, data can be more protected from memory leaks which of course is a major opportunity for hackers that they exploit. So it's a nice concept in a way for the system to isolate attendance data from other users. Okay, we want, we want to share some feedback that we got last week from the community on our analysis of Intel. A tech exec from city pointed out that, Intel really didn't miss a mobile, as we said, it really missed smartphones. In fact, whell, this is a kind of a minor distinction, it's important to recognize we think. Because Intel facilitated WIFI with Centrino, under the direction of Paul Alini. Who by the way, was not an engineer. I think he was the first non-engineer to be the CEO of Intel. He was a marketing person by background. Ironically, Intel's work in wifi connectivity enabled, actually enabled the smartphone revolution. And maybe that makes the smartphone missed by Intel all that more egregious, I don't know. Now the other piece of feedback we received related to our IBM scenario and our three-way joint venture prediction bringing together Intel, IBM, and Samsung in a triumvirate where Intel brings the foundry and it's process manufacturing. IBM brings its dis-aggregated memory technology and Samsung brings its its volume and its knowledge of of volume down the learning curve. Let's start with IBM. Remember we said that IBM with power 10 has the best technology in terms of this notion of dis-aggregating compute from memory and sharing memory in a pool across different processor types. So a few things in this regard, IBM when it restructured its micro electronics business under Ginni Rometty, catalyzed the partnership with global foundries and you know, this picture in the upper right it shows the global foundries facility outside of Albany, New York in Malta. And the partnership included AMD and Samsung. But we believe that global foundries is backed away from some of its contractual commitments with IBM causing a bit of a rift between the companies and leaving a hole in your original strategy. And evidently AMD hasn't really leaned in to move the needle in any way and so the New York foundry, is it a bit of a state of limbo with respect to its original vision. Now, well, Arvind Krishna was the face of the Intel announcement. It clearly has deep knowledge of IBM semiconductor strategy. Dario Gill, we think is a key player in the mix. He's the senior vice president director of IBM research. And it is in a position to affect some knowledge sharing and maybe even knowledge transfer with Intel possibly as it relates to disaggregated architecture. His questions remain as to how open IBM will be. And how protected it will be with its IP. It's got, as we said, last week, it's got to have an incentive to do so. Now why would IBM do that? Well, it wants to compete more effectively with VMware who has done a great job leveraging x86 and that's the biggest competitor in threat to open shift. So Arvind needs Intel chips to really execute on IBM's cloud strategy. Because almost all of IBM's customers are running apps on x86. So IBM's cloud and hybrid cloud. Strategy really need to leverage that Intel partnership. Now Intel for its part has great FinFET technology. FinFET is a tactic goes beyond CMOs. You all mainframes might remember when IBM burned the boat on ECL, Emitter-coupled Logic. And then moved to CMOs for its mainframes. Well, this is the next gen beyond, and it could give Intel a leg up on AMD's chiplet intellectual properties. Especially as it relates to latency. And there could be some benefits there for IBM. So maybe there's a quid pro quo going on. Now, where it really gets interesting is New York Senator, Chuck Schumer, is keen on building up an alternative to Silicon Valley in New York now it is Silicon Alley. So it's possible that Intel, who by the way has really good process technology. This is an aside, it really allowed TSMC to run the table with the whole seven nanometers versus 10 minute nanometer narrative. TSMC was at seven nanometer. Intel was at 10 nanometer. And really, we've said in the past that Intel's 10 nanometer tech is pretty close to TSMC seven. So Intel's ahead in that regard, even though in terms of, you know, the intervener thickness density, it's it's not, you know. These are sort of games that the semiconductor companies play, but you know it's possible that Intel with the U.S. government and IBM and Samsung could make a play for that New York foundry as part of Intel's trusted foundry strategy and kind of reshuffle that deck in Albany. Sounds like a "Game of Thrones," doesn't it? By the way, TSMC has been so consumed servicing Apple for five nanometer and eventually four nanometer that it's dropped the ball on some of its other's customers, namely Nvidia. And remember, a long-term competitiveness and cost reductions, they all come down to volume. And we think that Intel can't get to volume without an Arm strategy. Okay, so maybe the JV, the Joint Venture that we talked about, maybe we're out on a limb there and that's a stretch. And perhaps Samsung's not willing to play ball, given it's made huge investments in fabs and infrastructure and other resources, locally, but we think it's still viable scenario because we think Samsung definitely would covet a presence in the United States. No good to do that directly but maybe a partnership makes more sense in terms of gaining ground on TSMC. But anyway, let's say Intel can become a trusted foundry with the help of IBM and the U.S. government. Maybe then it could compete on volume. Well, how would that work? Well, let's say Nvidia, let's say they're not too happy with TSMC. Maybe with entertain Intel as a second source. Would that do it? In and of itself, no. But what about AWS and Google and Facebook? Maybe this is a way to placate the U.S. government and call off the antitrust dogs. Hey, we'll give Intel Foundry our business to secure America's semiconductor leadership and future and pay U.S. government. Why don't you chill out, back off a little bit. Microsoft even though, you know, it's not getting as much scrutiny from the U.S. government, it's anti trustee is maybe perhaps are behind it, who knows. But I think Microsoft would be happy to play ball as well. Now, would this give Intel a competitive volume posture? Yes, we think it would, for sure. If it can gain the trust of these companies and the volume we think would be there. But as we've said, currently, this is a very, very long shot because of the, the, the new strategy, the distance the difference in the Foundry business all those challenges that we laid out last week, it's going to take years to play out. But the dots are starting to connect in this scenario and the stakes are exceedingly high hence the importance of the U.S. government. Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to the community for your comments and insights. And thanks again to David Floyer whose analysis around Arm and semiconductors. And this work that he's done for the past decade is of tremendous help. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And these episodes are all available as podcasts, just search for braking analysis podcast and you can always connect on Twitter. You can hit the chat right here or this live event or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. Look, I always appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and Clubhouse. You can follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics as well as others. And don't forget to check out etr.plus where all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (cheerful music) (cheerful music)

>> From the Cube's studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from The Cube and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Exactly one week after Pat Gelsinger's announcement of his plans to reinvent Intel. Arm announced version nine of its architecture and laid out its vision for the next decade. We believe this vision is extremely strong as it combines an end-to-end capability from Edge to Cloud, to the data center, to the home and everything in between. Arms aspirations are ambitious and powerful. Leveraging its business model, ecosystem and software compatibility with previous generations. Hello every one and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. And this breaking analysis will explain why we think this announcement is so important and what it means for Intel and the broader technology landscape. We'll also share with you some feedback that we received from the Cube Community on last week's episode and a little inside baseball on how Intel, IBM, Samsung, TSMC and the U.S. government might be thinking about the shifting landscape of semiconductor technology. Now, there were two notable announcements this week that were directly related to Intel's announcement of March 23rd. The Armv9 news and TSMC's plans to invest a $100 billion in chip manufacturing and development over the next three years. That is a big number. It appears to tramp Intel's plan $20 billion investment to launch two new fabs in the U.S. starting in 2024. You may remember back in 2019, Samsung pledged to invest a $116 billion to diversify its production beyond memory trip, memory chips. Why are all these companies getting so aggressive? And won't this cause a glut in chips? Well, first, China looms large and aims to dominate its local markets, which in turn is going to confer advantages globally. The second, there's a huge chip shortage right now. And the belief is that it's going to continue through the decade and possibly beyond. We are seeing a new inflection point in the demand as we discussed last week. Stemming from digital, IOT, cloud, autos in new use cases in the home as so well presented by Sarjeet Johal in our community. As to the glut, these manufacturers believe that demand will outstrip supply indefinitely. And I understand that a lack of manufacturing capacity is actually more deadly than an oversupply. Look, if there's a glut, manufacturers can cut production and take the financial hit. Whereas capacity constraints mean you can miss entire cycles of growth and really miss out on the demand and the cost reductions. So, all these manufacturers are going for it. Now let's talk about Arm, its approach and the announcements that it made this week. Now last week, we talked about how Pat Gelsinger his vision of a system on package was an attempt to leapfrog system on chip SOC, while Arm is taking a similar system approach. But in our view, it's even broader than the vision laid out by Pat at Intel. Arm is targeting a wide variety of use cases that are shown here. Arm's fundamental philosophy is that the future will require highly specialized chips and Intel as you recall from Pat's announcement, would agree. But Arm historically takes an ecosystem approach that is different from Intel's model. Arm is all about enabling the production of specialized chips to really fit a specific application. For example, think about the amount of AI going on iPhones. They move if I remember from fingerprint to face recognition. This requires specialized neural processing units, NPUs that are designed by Apple for that particular use case. Arm is facilitating the creation of these specialized chips to be designed and produced by the ecosystem. Intel on the other hand has historically taken a one size fits all approach. Built around the x86. The Intel's design has always been about improving the processor. For example, in terms of speed, density, adding vector processing to accommodate AI, et cetera. And Intel does all the design and the manufacturing in any specialization for the ecosystem is done by Intel. Much of the value, that's added from the ecosystem is frankly been bending metal or adding displays or other features at the margin. But, the advantage is that the x86 architecture is well understood. It's consistent, reliable, and let's face it. Most enterprise software runs on x86. So, but very, very different models historically, which we heard from Gelsinger last week they're going to change with a new trusted foundry strategy. Now let's go through an example that might help explain the power of Arm's model. Let's say, your AWS and you're doing graviton. Designing graviton and graviton2. Or Apple, designing the M1 chip, or Tesla designing its own chip, or any other company in in any one of these use cases that are shown here. Tesla is a really good example. In order to optimize for video processing, Tesla needed to add specialized code firmware in the NPU for it's specific use case within autos. It was happy to take off the shelf CPU or GPU or whatever, and leverage Arm's standards there. And then it added its own value in the NPU. So the advantage of this model is Tesla could go from tape out in less or, or, or or in less than a year versus get the tape out in less than a year versus what would normally take many years. Arm is, think of Arm is like customize a Lego blocks that enable unique value add by the ecosystem with a much faster time to market. So like I say, the Tesla goes from logical tape out if you will, to Samsung and then says, okay run this against your manufacturing process. And it should all work as advertised by Arm. Tesla, interestingly, just as an aside chose the 14 nanometer process to keep its costs down. It didn't need the latest and greatest density. Okay, so you can see big difference in philosophies historically between Arm and Intel. And you can see Intel vectoring toward the Arm model based on what Gelsinger said last week for its foundry business. Essentially it has to. Now, Arm announced a new Arm architecture, Armv9. v9 is backwards compatible with previous generations. Perhaps Arm learned from Intel's failed, Itanium effort for those remember that word. Had no backward compatibility and it really floundered. As well, Arm adds some additional capabilities. And today we're going to focus on the two areas that have highlighted, machine learning piece and security. I'll take note of the call out, 300 billion chips. That's Arm's vision. That's a lot. And we've said, before, Arm's way for volumes are 10X those of x86. Volume, we sound like a broken record. Volume equals cost reduction. We'll come back to that a little bit later. Now let's have a word on AI and machine learning. Arm is betting on AI and ML. Big as are many others. And this chart really shows why, it's a graphic that shows ETR data and spending momentum and pervasiveness in the dataset across all the different sectors that ETR tracks within its taxonomy. Note that ML/AI gets the top spot on the vertical axis, which represents net score. That's a measure of spending momentum or spending velocity. The horizontal axis is market share presence in the dataset. And we give this sector four stars to signify it's consistent lead in the data. So pretty reasonable bet by Arm. But the other area that we're going to talk about is security. And its vision day, Arm talked about confidential compute architecture and these things called realms. Note in the left-hand side, showing data traveling all over the different use cases and around the world and the call-out from the CISO below, it's a large public airline CISO that spoke at an ETR Venn round table. And this individual noted that the shifting end points increase the threat vectors. We all know that. Arm said something that really resonated. Specifically, they said today, there's far too much trust on the OS and the hypervisor that are running these applications. And their broad access to data is a weakness. Arm's concept of realms as shown in the right-hand side, underscores the company strategy to remove the assumption that privileged software. Like the hypervisor needs to be able to see the data. So by creating realms, in a virtualized multi-tenant environment, data can be more protected from memory leaks which of course is a major opportunity for hackers that they exploit. So it's a nice concept in a way for the system to isolate attendance data from other users. Okay, we want, we want to share some feedback that we got last week from the community on our analysis of Intel. A tech exec from city pointed out that, Intel really didn't miss a mobile, as we said, it really missed smartphones. In fact, whell, this is a kind of a minor distinction, it's important to recognize we think. Because Intel facilitated WIFI with Centrino, under the direction of Paul Alini. Who by the way, was not an engineer. I think he was the first non-engineer to be the CEO of Intel. He was a marketing person by background. Ironically, Intel's work in wifi connectivity enabled, actually enabled the smartphone revolution. And maybe that makes the smartphone missed by Intel all that more egregious, I don't know. Now the other piece of feedback we received related to our IBM scenario and our three-way joint venture prediction bringing together Intel, IBM, and Samsung in a triumvirate where Intel brings the foundry and it's process manufacturing. IBM brings its dis-aggregated memory technology and Samsung brings its its volume and its knowledge of of volume down the learning curve. Let's start with IBM. Remember we said that IBM with power 10 has the best technology in terms of this notion of dis-aggregating compute from memory and sharing memory in a pool across different processor types. So a few things in this regard, IBM when it restructured its micro electronics business under Ginni Rometty, catalyzed the partnership with global foundries and you know, this picture in the upper right it shows the global foundries facility outside of Albany, New York in Malta. And the partnership included AMD and Samsung. But we believe that global foundries is backed away from some of its contractual commitments with IBM causing a bit of a rift between the companies and leaving a hole in your original strategy. And evidently AMD hasn't really leaned in to move the needle in any way and so the New York foundry, is it a bit of a state of limbo with respect to its original vision. Now, well, Arvind Krishna was the face of the Intel announcement. It clearly has deep knowledge of IBM semiconductor strategy. Dario Gill, we think is a key player in the mix. He's the senior vice president director of IBM research. And it is in a position to affect some knowledge sharing and maybe even knowledge transfer with Intel possibly as it relates to disaggregated architecture. His questions remain as to how open IBM will be. And how protected it will be with its IP. It's got, as we said, last week, it's got to have an incentive to do so. Now why would IBM do that? Well, it wants to compete more effectively with VMware who has done a great job leveraging x86 and that's the biggest competitor in threat to open shift. So Arvind needs Intel chips to really execute on IBM's cloud strategy. Because almost all of IBM's customers are running apps on x86. So IBM's cloud and hybrid cloud. Strategy really need to leverage that Intel partnership. Now Intel for its part has great FinFET technology. FinFET is a tactic goes beyond CMOs. You all mainframes might remember when IBM burned the boat on ECL, Emitter-coupled Logic. And then moved to CMOs for its mainframes. Well, this is the next gen beyond, and it could give Intel a leg up on AMD's chiplet intellectual properties. Especially as it relates to latency. And there could be some benefits there for IBM. So maybe there's a quid pro quo going on. Now, where it really gets interesting is New York Senator, Chuck Schumer, is keen on building up an alternative to Silicon Valley in New York now it is Silicon Alley. So it's possible that Intel, who by the way has really good process technology. This is an aside, it really allowed TSMC to run the table with the whole seven nanometers versus 10 minute nanometer narrative. TSMC was at seven nanometer. Intel was at 10 nanometer. And really, we've said in the past that Intel's 10 nanometer tech is pretty close to TSMC seven. So Intel's ahead in that regard, even though in terms of, you know, the intervener thickness density, it's it's not, you know. These are sort of games that the semiconductor companies play, but you know it's possible that Intel with the U.S. government and IBM and Samsung could make a play for that New York foundry as part of Intel's trusted foundry strategy and kind of reshuffle that deck in Albany. Sounds like a "Game of Thrones," doesn't it? By the way, TSMC has been so consumed servicing Apple for five nanometer and eventually four nanometer that it's dropped the ball on some of its other's customers, namely Nvidia. And remember, a long-term competitiveness and cost reductions, they all come down to volume. And we think that Intel can't get to volume without an Arm strategy. Okay, so maybe the JV, the Joint Venture that we talked about, maybe we're out on a limb there and that's a stretch. And perhaps Samsung's not willing to play ball, given it's made huge investments in fabs and infrastructure and other resources, locally, but we think it's still viable scenario because we think Samsung definitely would covet a presence in the United States. No good to do that directly but maybe a partnership makes more sense in terms of gaining ground on TSMC. But anyway, let's say Intel can become a trusted foundry with the help of IBM and the U.S. government. Maybe then it could compete on volume. Well, how would that work? Well, let's say Nvidia, let's say they're not too happy with TSMC. Maybe with entertain Intel as a second source. Would that do it? In and of itself, no. But what about AWS and Google and Facebook? Maybe this is a way to placate the U.S. government and call off the antitrust dogs. Hey, we'll give Intel Foundry our business to secure America's semiconductor leadership and future and pay U.S. government. Why don't you chill out, back off a little bit. Microsoft even though, you know, it's not getting as much scrutiny from the U.S. government, it's anti trustee is maybe perhaps are behind it, who knows. But I think Microsoft would be happy to play ball as well. Now, would this give Intel a competitive volume posture? Yes, we think it would, for sure. If it can gain the trust of these companies and the volume we think would be there. But as we've said, currently, this is a very, very long shot because of the, the, the new strategy, the distance the difference in the Foundry business all those challenges that we laid out last week, it's going to take years to play out. But the dots are starting to connect in this scenario and the stakes are exceedingly high hence the importance of the U.S. government. Okay, that's it for now. Thanks to the community for your comments and insights. And thanks again to David Floyer whose analysis around Arm and semiconductors. And this work that he's done for the past decade is of tremendous help. Remember I publish each week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And these episodes are all available as podcasts, just search for braking analysis podcast and you can always connect on Twitter. You can hit the chat right here or this live event or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com. Look, I always appreciate the comments on LinkedIn and Clubhouse. You can follow me so you're notified when we start a room and riff on these topics as well as others. And don't forget to check out etr.plus where all the survey data. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Be well, and we'll see you next time. (cheerful music) (cheerful music)

(upbeat music) >> Hello, and welcome to The Great Cloud Debate. I'm your moderator Rachel Dines. I'm joined by two debaters today Corey Quinn, Cloud Economist at the Duckbill Group and Stu Miniman, Senior Analyst and Host of theCube. Welcome Corey and Stu, this when you can say hello. >> Hey Rachel, great to talk to you. >> And it's better to talk to me. It's always a pleasure to talk to the fine folks over at CloudHealth at by VMware and less of the pleasure to talk to Stu. >> Smack talk is scheduled for later in the agenda gentlemen, so please keep it to a minimum now to keep us on schedule. So here's how today is going to work. I'm going to introduce a debate topic and assign Corey and Stu each to a side. Remember, their assignments are what I decide and they might not actually match their true feelings about a topic, and it definitely does not represent the feelings of their employer or my employer, importantly. Each debater is going to have two minutes to state their opening arguments, then we'll have rebuttals. And each round you the audience gets to vote of who you think is winning. And at the end of the debate, I'll announce the winner. The prize is bragging rights of course, but then also we're having each debater play to win lunch for their local hospital, which is really exciting. So Stu, which hospital are you playing for? >> Yeah, so Rachel, I'm choosing Brigham Women's Hospital. I get a little bit of a home vote for the Boston audience here and was actually my wife's first job out of school. >> Great hospital. Very, very good. All right, Corey, what about you? >> My neighbor winds up being as specialist in infectious diseases as a doctor, and that was always one of those weird things you learn over a cocktail party until this year became incredibly relevant. So I will absolutely be sending the lunch to his department. >> Wonderful! All right. Well, is everyone ready? Any last words? This is your moment for smack talk. >> I think I'll say that for once we can apply it to a specific technology area. Otherwise, it was insulting his appearance and that's too easy. >> All right, let's get going. The first topic is multicloud. Corey, you'll be arguing that companies are better off standardizing on a single cloud. While Stu, you're going to argue the companies are better off with a multicloud strategy. Corey, you're up first, two minutes on the clock and go. >> All right. As a general rule, picking a single provider and going all in leads to the better outcome. Otherwise, you're trying to build every workload to run seamlessly on other providers on a moment's notice. You don't ever actually do it and all you're giving up in return is the ability to leverage whatever your primary cloud provider is letting you build. Now you're suddenly trying to make two differently behaving load balancers work together in the same way, you're using terraform or as I like to call it multicloud formation in the worst of all possible ways. Because now you're having to only really build on one provider, but all the work you're putting in to make that scale to other providers, you might theoretically want to go to at some point, it slows you down, you're never going to be able to move as quickly trying to build for everyone as you are for one particular provider. And I don't care which provider you pick, you probably care which one you pick, I don't care which one. The point is, you've got to pick what's right for your business. And in almost every case, that means start on a single platform. And if you need to migrate down the road years from now, great, that means A you've survived that long, and B you now have the longevity as a business to understand what migrating looks like. Otherwise you're not able to take care of any of the higher level offerings these providers offer that are even slightly differentiated from each other. And even managed database services behave differently. You've got to become a master of all the different ways these things can fail and unfortunate and displeasing ways. It just leaves you in a position where you're not able to specialize, and of course, makes hiring that much harder. Stu, fight me! >> Tough words there. All right, Stu, your turn. Why are companies better off if they go with a multicloud strategy? Got two minutes? >> Yeah, well first of all Corey, I'm really glad that I didn't have to whip out the AWS guidelines, you were not sticking strictly to it and saying that you could not use the words multicloud, cross-cloud, any cloud or every cloud so thank you for saving me that argument. But I want you to kind of come into the real world a little bit. We want access to innovation, we want flexibility, and well, we used to say I would have loved to have a single provider, in the real world we understand that people end up using multiple solutions. If you look at the AI world today, there's not a provider that is a clear leader in every environment that I have. So there's a reason why I might want to use a lot of clouds. Most companies I talked to, Corey, they still have some of their own servers. They're working in a data center, we've seen huge explosion in the service provider world connecting to multiple clouds. So well, a couple of years ago, multicloud was a complete mess. Now, it's only a little bit of a mess, Corey. So absolutely, there's work that we need to do as an industry to make these solutions better. I've been pining for a couple years to say that multicloud needs to be stronger than the sum of its pieces. And we might not yet be there but limiting yourself to a single cloud is reducing your access to innovation, it's reducing your flexibility. And when you start looking at things like edge computing and AI, I'm going to need to access services from multiple providers. So single cloud is a lovely ideal, but in the real world, we understand that teams come with certain skill sets. We end up in many industries, we have mergers and acquisitions. And it's not as easy to just rip out all of your cloud, like you would have 20 years ago, if you said, "Oh, well, they have a phone system or a router "that didn't match what our corporate guidelines is." Cloud is what we're doing. There's lots of solutions out there. And therefore, multicloud is the reality today, and will be the reality going forward for many years to come. >> Strong words from you, Stu. Corey, you've got 60 seconds for rebuttal. I mostly agree with what you just said. I think that having different workloads in different clouds makes an awful lot of sense. Data gravity becomes a bit of a bear. But if you acquire a company that's running on a different cloud than the one that you've picked, you'd be ridiculous to view migrating as anything approaching a strategic priority. Now, this also gets into the question of what is cloud? Our G Suite stuff counts as cloud, but no one really views it in that way. Similarly, when you have an AI specific workload, that's great. As long as it isn't you seriously expensive to move data between providers. That workload doesn't need to live in the same place as your marketing website does. I think that the idea of having a specific cloud provider that you go all in on for every use case, well, at some point that leads to ridiculous things like pretending that Amazon WorkDocs has customers, it does not. But for things that matter to your business and looking at specific workloads, I think that you're going to find a primary provider with secondary workloads here and they're scattered elsewhere to be the strategy that people are getting at when they use the word multicloud badly. >> Time's up for you Corey, Stu we've got time for rebuttal and remember, for those of you in the audience, you can vote at any time and who you think is winning this round. Stu, 60 seconds for a rebuttal. >> Yeah, absolutely Corey. Look, you just gave the Andy Jassy of what multicloud should be 70 to 80% goes to a single provider. And it does make sense we know nobody ever said multicloud equals the same amount in multiple environments but you made a clear case as to why multicloud leveraging multi providers is likely what most companies are going to do. So thank you so much for making a clear case as to why multicloud not equal cloud, across multiple providers is the way to go. So thank you for conceding the victory. >> Last Words, Corey. >> If that's what you took from it Stu, I can't get any closer to it than you have. >> All right, let's move on to the next topic then. The next topic is serverless versus containers which technology is going to be used in, let's say, five to 10 years time? And as a reminder, I'm going to assign each of the debaters these topics, their assignments may or may not match their true feelings about this topic, and they definitely don't represent the topics of my employer, CloudHealth by VMware. Stu, you're going to argue for containers. Corey you're going to argue for start serverless. Stu, you're up first. Two minutes on the clock and go. >> All right, so with all respect to my friends in the serverless community, We need to have a reality check as to how things work. We all know that serverless is a ridiculous name because underneath we do need to worry about all of the infrastructure underneath. So containers today are the de facto building block for cloud native architectures, just as the VM defined the ecosystem for an entire generation of solutions. Containers are the way we build things today. It is the way Google has architected their entire solution and underneath it is often something that's used with serverless. So yes, if you're, building an Alexa service, serverless make what's good for you. But for the vast majority of solutions, I need to have flexibility, I need to understand how things work underneath it. We know in IT that it's great when things work, but we need to understand how to fix them when they break. So containerization gets us to that atomic level, really close to having the same thing as the application. And therefore, we saw the millions of users that deploy Docker, we saw the huge wave of container orchestration led by Kubernetes. And the entire ecosystem and millions of customers are now on board with this way of designing and architecting and breaking down the silos between the infrastructure world and the application developer world. So containers, here to stay growing fast. >> All right, Corey, what do you think? Why is serverless the future? >> I think that you're right in that containers are the way you get from where you were to something that runs effectively in a cloud environment. That is why Google is so strongly behind Kubernetes it helps get the entire industry to write code the way that Google might write code. And that's great. But if you're looking at effectively rewriting something from scratch, or building something that new, the idea of not having to think about infrastructure in the traditional sense of being able to just here, take this code and run it in a given provider that takes whatever it is that you need to do and could loose all these other services together, saves an awful lot of time. As that continues to move up the stack towards the idea of no code or low code. And suddenly, you're now able to build these applications in ways that require just a little bit of code that tie together everything else. We're closer than ever to that old trope of the only code you write is business logic. Serverless gives a much clearer shot of getting there, if you can divorce yourself from the past of legacy workloads. Legacy, of course meaning older than 18 months and makes money. >> Stu, do you have a rebuttal, 60 seconds? >> Yeah. So Corey, we've been talking about this Nirvana in many ways. It's the discussion that we had for paths for over a decade now. I want to be able to write my code once not worry about where it lives, and do all this. But sometimes, there's a reason why we keep trying the same thing over and over again, but never reaching it. So serverless is great for some application If you talked about, okay, if you're some brand new webby thing there and I don't want to have to do this team, that's awesome. I've talked to some wonderful people that don't know anything about coding that have built some cool stuff with serverless. But cool stuff isn't what most business runs on, and therefore containerization is, as you said, it's a bridge to where I need to go, it lives in these cloud environments, and it is the present and it is the future. >> Corey, your response. >> I agree that it's the present, I doubt that it's the future in quite the same way. Right now Kubernetes is really scratching a major itch, which is how all of these companies who are moving to public cloud still I can have their infrastructure teams be able to cosplay as cloud providers themselves. And over time, that becomes simpler and I think on some level, you might even see a convergence of things that are container workloads begin to look a lot more like serverless workloads. Remember, we're aiming at something that is five years away in the context of this question. I think that the serverless and container landscape will look very different. The serverless landscape will be bright and exciting and new, whereas unfortunately the container landscape is going to be represented by people like you Stu. >> Hoarse words from Corey. Stu, any last words or rebuttals? >> Yeah, and look Corey absolutely just like we don't really think about the underlying server or VM, we won't think about the containers you won't think about Kubernetes in the future, but, the question is, which technology will be used in five to 10 years, it'll still be there. It will be the fabric of our lives underneath there for containerization. So, that is what we were talking about. Serverless I think will be useful in pockets of places but will not be the predominant technology, five years from now. >> All right, tough to say who won that one? I'm glad I don't have to decide. I hope everyone out there is voting, last chance to vote on this question before we move on to the next. Next topic is cloud wars. I'm going to give a statement and then I'm going to assign each of you a pro or a con, Google will never be an actual contender in the cloud wars always a far third, we're going to have Corey arguing that Google is never going to be an actual contender. And Stu, you're going to argue that Google is eventually going to overtake the top two AWS and Azure. As a constant reminder, I'm assigning these topics, it's my decision and also they don't match the opinions of me, my employer, or likely Stu or Corey. This is all just for fun and games. But I really want to hear what everyone has to say. So Corey, you're up first two minutes. Why is Google never going to be an actual contender and go. >> The biggest problem Google has in the time of cloud is their ability to forecast longer term on anything that isn't their advertising business, and their ability to talk to human beings long enough to meet people where they are. We're replacing their entire culture is what it's going to take to succeed in the time of cloud and with respect, Thomas Kurian is a spectacular leader internally but look at where he's come from. He spent 22 years at Oracle and now has been transplanted into Google. If we take a look at Satya Nadella's cloud transformation at Microsoft, he was able to pull that off as an insider, after having known intimately every aspect of that company, and he grew organically with it and was perfectly positioned to make that change. You can't instill that kind of culture change by dropping someone externally, on top of an organization and expecting anything to go with this magic one day wake up and everything's going to work out super well. Google has a tremendous amount of strengths, and I don't see that providing common denominator cloud computing services to a number of workloads that from a Google perspective are horrifying, is necessarily in their wheelhouse. It feels like their entire focus on this is well, there's money over there. We should go get some of that too. It comes down to the traditional Google lack of focus. >> Stu, rebuttal? Why do you think Google has a shaft? >> Yeah, so first of all, Corey, I think we'd agree Google is a powerhouse in the world today. My background is networking, when they first came out with with Google Cloud, I said, Google has the best network, second to none in the world. They are ubiquitous today. If you talk about the impact they have on the world, Android phones, you mentioned Kubernetes, everybody uses G Suite maps, YouTube, and the like. That does not mean that they are necessarily going to become the clear leader in cloud but, Corey, they've got really, really smart people. If you're not familiar with that talk to them. They'll tell you how smart they are. And they have built phenomenal solutions, who's going to be able to solve, the challenge every day of, true distributed systems, that a global database that can handle the clock down to the atomic level, Google's the one that does that we've all read the white papers on that. They've set the tone for Hadoop, and various solutions that are all over the place, and their secret weapon is not the advertising, of course, that is a big concern for them, but is that if you talk about, the consumer adoption, everyone uses Google. My kids have all had Chromebooks growing up. It isn't their favorite thing, but they get, indoctrinated with Google technology. And as they go out and leverage technologies in the world, Google is one that is known. Google has the strength of technology and a lot of positioning and partnerships to move them forward. Everybody wants a strong ecosystem in cloud, we don't want a single provider. We already discussed this before, but just from a competitive nature standpoint, if there is a clear counterbalance to AWS, I would say that it is Google, not Microsoft, that is positioned to be that clear and opportune. >> Interesting, very interesting Stu. So your argument is the Gen Zers will of ultimately when they come of age become the big Google proponents. Some strong words that as well but they're the better foil to AWS, Corey rebuttal? >> I think that Stu is one t-shirt change away from a pitch perfect reenactment of Charlie Brown. In this case with Google playing the part of Lucy yanking the football away every time. We've seen it with inbox, Google Reader, Google Maps, API pricing, GKE's pricing for control plane. And when your argument comes down to a suddenly Google is going to change their entire nature and become something that it is as proven as constitutionally incapable of being, namely supporting something that its customers want that it doesn't itself enjoy working on. And to the exclusion of being able to get distracted and focused on other things. Even their own conferences called Next because Google is more interested in what they're shipping than what they're building, than what they're currently shipping. I think that it is a fantasy to pretend that that is somehow going to change without a complete cultural transformation, which again, I don't see the seeds being planted for. >> Some sick burns in there Stu, rebuttal? >> Yeah. So the final word that I'll give you on this is, one of the most important pieces of what we need today. And we need to tomorrow is our data. Now, there are some concerns when we talk about Google and data, but Google also has strong strength in data, understanding data, helping customers leverage data. So while I agree to your points about the cultural shift, they have the opportunity to take the services that they have, and enable customers to be able to take their data to move forward to the wonderful world of AI, cloud, edge computing, and all of those pieces and solve the solution with data. >> Strong words there. All right, that's a tough one. Again, I hope you're all out there voting for who you think won that round. Let's move on to the last round before we start hitting the lightning questions. I put a call out on several channels and social media for people to have questions that they want you to debate. And this one comes from Og-AWS Slack member, Angelo. Angelo asks, "What about IBM Cloud?" Stu you're pro, Corey you're con. Let's have Stu you're up first. The question is, what about IBM Cloud? >> All right, so great question, Angelo. I think when you look at the cloud providers, first of all, you have to understand that they're not all playing the same game. We talked about AWS and they are the elephant in the room that moves nimbly as a cheetah. Every other provider plays a little bit of a different game. Google has strength in data. Microsoft, of course, has their, business productivity applications. IBM has a strong legacy. Now, Corey is going to say that they are just legacy and you need to think about them but IBM has strong innovation. They are a player in really what we call chapter two of the cloud. So when we start talking about multicloud, when we start talking about living in many environments, IBM was the first one to partner with VMware for VMware cloud before the mega VMware AWS announcement, there was IBM up on stage and if I remember right, they actually have more VMware customers on IBM Cloud than they do in the AWS cloud. So over my shoulder here, there's of course, the Red Hat $34 billion to bet on that multicloud solution. So as we talk about containerization, and Kubernetes, Red Hat is strongly positioned in open-source, and flexibility. So you really need a company that understands both the infrastructure side and the application side. IBM has database, IBM has infrastructure, IBM has long been the leader in middleware, and therefore IBM has a real chance to be a strong player in this next generation of platforms. Doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to go attack Amazon, they're partnering across the board. So I think you will see a kinder, gentler IBM and they are leveraging open source and Red Hat and I think we've let the dogs out on the IBM solution. >> Indeed. >> So before Corey goes, I feel the need to remind everyone that the views expressed here are not the views of my employer nor myself, nor necessarily of Corey or Stu. I have Corey. >> I haven't even said anything yet. And you're disclaiming what I'm about to say. >> I'm just warning the audience, 'cause I can't wait to hear what you're going to say next. >> Sounds like I have to go for the high score. All right. IBM's best days are behind it. And that is pretty clear. They like to get angry when people talk about how making the jokes about a homogenous looking group of guys in blue suits as being all IBM has to offer. They say that hasn't been true since the '80s. But that was the last time people cared about IBM in any meaningful sense and no one has bothered to update the relevance since then. Now, credit where due, I am seeing an awful lot of promoted tweets from IBM into my timeline, all talking about how amazing their IBM blockchain technology is. And yes, that is absolutely the phrasing of someone who's about to turn it all around and win the game. I don't see it happening. >> Stu, rebuttal? >> Look, Corey, IBM was the company that brought us the UPC code. They understand Mac manufacturing and blockchain actually shows strong presence in supply chain management. So maybe you're not quite aware of some of the industries that IBM is an expert in. So that is one of the big strengths of IBM, they really understand verticals quite well. And, at the IBM things show, I saw a lot in the healthcare world, had very large customers that were leveraging those solutions. So while you might dismiss things when they say, Oh, well, one of the largest telecom providers in India are leveraging OpenStack and you kind of go with them, well, they've got 300 million customers, and they're thrilled with the solution that they're doing with IBM, so it is easy to scoff at them, but IBM is a reliable, trusted provider out there and still very strong financially and by the way, really excited with the new leadership in place there, Arvind Krishna knows product, Jim Whitehurst came from the Red Hat side. So don't be sleeping on IBM. >> Corey, any last words? >> I think that they're subject to massive disruption as soon as they release the AWS 400 mainframe in the cloud. And I think that before we, it's easy to forget this, but before Google was turning off Reader, IBM stopped making the model M buckling spring keyboards. Those things were masterpieces and that was one of the original disappointments that we learned that we can't fall in love with companies, because companies in turn will not love us back. IBM has demonstrated that. Lastly, I think I'm thrilled to be working with IBM is exactly the kind of statement one makes only at gunpoint. >> Hey, Corey, by the way, I think you're spending too much time looking at all titles of AWS services, 'cause you don't know the difference between your mainframe Z series and the AS/400 which of course is heavily pending. >> Also the i series. Oh yes. >> The i series. So you're conflating your system, which still do billions of dollars a year, by the way. >> Oh, absolutely. But that's not we're not seeing new banks launching and then building on top of IBM mainframe technology. I'm not disputing that mainframes were phenomenal. They were, I just don't see them as the future and I don't see a cloud story. >> Only a cloud live your mainframe related smack talk. That's the important thing that we're getting to here. All right, we move-- >> I'm hoping there's an announcement from CloudHealth by VMware that they also will now support mainframe analytics as well as traditional cloud. >> I'll look into that. >> Excellent. >> We're moving on to the lightning rounds. Each debater in this round is only going to get 60 seconds for their opening argument and then 30 seconds for a rebuttal. We're going to hit some really, really big important questions here like this first one, which is who deserves to sit on the Iron Throne at the end of "Game of Thrones?" I've been told that Corey has never seen this TV show so I'm very interested to hear him argue for Sansa. But let's Sansa Stark, let's hear Stu go first with his argument for Jon Snow. Stu one minute on the clock, go. >> All right audience let's hear it from the king of the north first of all. Nothing better than Jon Snow. He made the ultimate sacrifice. He killed his love to save Westeros from clear destruction because Khaleesi had gone mad. So Corey is going to say something like it's time for the women to do this but it was a woman she went mad. She started burning the place down and Jon Snow saved it so it only makes sense that he should have done it. Everyone knows it was a travesty that he was sent back to the Wall, and to just wander the wild. So absolutely Jon Snow vote for King of the North. >> Compelling arguments. Corey, why should Sansa Stark sit on the throne? Never having seen the show I've just heard bits and pieces about it and all involves things like bloody slaughters, for example, the AWS partner Expo right before the keynote is best known as AWS red wedding. We take a look at that across the board and not having seen it, I don't know the answer to this question, but how many of the folks who are in positions of power we're in fact mediocre white dudes and here we have Stu advocating for yet another one. Sure, this is a lightning round of a fun event but yes, we should continue to wind up selecting this mediocre white person has many parallels in terms of power, et cetera, politics, current tech industry as a whole. I think she's right we absolutely should give someone with a look like this a potential opportunity to see what they can do instead. >> Ouch, Stu 30 seconds rebuttal. >> Look, I would just give a call out to the women in the audience and say, don't you want Jon Snow to be king? >> I also think it's quite bold of Corey to say that he looks like Kit Harington. Corey, any last words? >> I think that it sad you think Stu was running for office at this point because he's become everyone's least favorite animal, a panda bear. >> Fire. All right, so on to the next question. This one also very important near and dear to my heart personally, is a hot dog a sandwich. Corey you'll be arguing no, Stu will be arguing yes. I must also add this important disclaimer that these assignments are made by me and might not reflect the actual views of the debaters here so Corey, you're up first. Why is a hot dog not a sandwich? >> Because you'll get punched in the face if you go to a deli of any renown and order a hot dog. That is not what they serve there. They wind up having these famous delicatessen in New York they have different sandwiches named after different celebrities. I shudder to think of the deadly insult that naming a hot dog after a celebrity would be to that not only celebrity in some cases also the hot dog too. If you take a look and you want to get sandwiches for lunch? Sure. What are we having catered for this event? Sandwiches. You show up and you see a hot dog, you're looking around the hot dog to find the rest of the sandwich. Now while it may check all of the boxes for a technical definition of what a sandwich is, as I'm sure Stu will boringly get into, it's not what people expect, there's a matter of checking the actual boxes, and then delivering what customers actually want. It's why you can let your product roadmap be guided by cart by customers or by Gartner but rarely both. >> Wow, that one hurts. Stu, why is the hot dog a sandwich? >> Yeah so like Corey, I'm sorry that you must not have done some decent traveling 'cause I'm glad you brought up the definition because I'm not going to bore you with yes, there's bread and there's meat and there's toppings and everything else like that but there are some phenomenal hot dogs out there. I traveled to Iceland a few years ago, and there's a little hot dog stand out there that's been there for over 40 or 50 years. And it's one of the top 10 culinary experience I put in. And I've been to Michelin star restaurants. You go to Chicago and any local will be absolutely have to try our creation. There are regional hot dogs. There are lots of solutions there and so yeah, of course you don't go to a deli. Of course if you're going to the deli for takeout and you're buying meats, they do sell hot dogs, Corey, it's just not the first thing that you're going to order on the menu. So I think you're underselling the hot dog. Whether you are a child and grew up and like eating nothing more than the mustard or ketchup, wherever you ate on it, or if you're a world traveler, and have tried some of the worst options out there. There are a lot of options for hot dogs so hot dog, sandwich, culinary delight. >> Stu, don't think we didn't hear that pun. I'm not sure if that counts for or against you, but Corey 30 seconds rebuttal. >> In the last question, you were agitating for putting a white guy back in power. Now you're sitting here arguing that, "Oh some of my best friend slash meals or hot dogs." Yeah, I think we see what you're putting down Stu and it's not pretty, it's really not pretty and I think people are just going to start having to ask some very pointed, delicate questions. >> Tough words to hear Stu. Close this out or rebuttal. >> I'm going to take the high road, Rachel and leave that where it stands. >> I think that is smart. All right, next question. Tabs versus spaces. Stu, you're going to argue for tabs, Corey, you're going to argue for spaces just to make this fun. Stu, 60 seconds on the clock, you're up first. Why are tabs the correct approach? >> First of all, my competitor here really isn't into pop culture. So he's probably not familiar with the epic Silicon Valley argument over this discussion. So, Corey, if you could explain the middle of algorithm, we will be quite impressed but since you don't, we'll just have to go with some of the technology first. Looks, developers, we want to make things simple on you. Tabs, they're faster to do they take up less memory. Yes, they aren't quite as particular as using spaces but absolutely, they get the job done and it is important to just, focus on productivity, I believe that the conversation as always, the less code you can write, the better and therefore, if you don't have to focus on exactly how many spaces and you can just simplify with the tabs, you're gona get close enough for most of the job. And it is easier to move forward and focus on the real work rather than some pedantic discussion as to whether one thing is slightly more efficient than the other. >> Great points Stu. Corey, why is your pedantic approach better? >> No one is suggesting you sit there and whack the spacebar four times or eight times you hit the Tab key, but your editor should be reasonably intelligent enough to expand that. At that point, you have now set up a precedent where in other cases, other parts of your codebase you're using spaces because everyone always does. And that winds up in turn, causing a weird dissonance you'll see a bunch of linters throwing issues if you use tabs as a direct result. Now the wrong answer is, of course, and I think Steve will agree with me both in the same line. No one is ever in favor of that. But I also want to argue with Stu over his argument about "Oh, it saves a little bit of space "is the reason one should go with tabs instead." Sorry, that argument said bye bye a long time ago, and that time was the introduction of JavaScript, where it takes many hundreds of Meg's of data to wind up building hello world. Yeah, at that point optimization around small character changes are completely irrelevant. >> Stu, rebuttal? >> Yeah, I didn't know that Corey did not try to defend that he had any idea what Silicon Valley was, or any of the references in there. So Rachel, we might have to avoid any other pop culture references. We know Corey just looks at very specific cloud services and can't have fun with some of the broader themes there. >> You're right my mistake Stu. Corey, any last words? >> It's been suggested that whole middle out seen on the whiteboard was came from a number of conversations I used to have with my co-workers as in people who were sitting in the room with me watching that episode said, Oh my God, I've been in the room while you had this debate with your friend and I will not name here because they at least still strive to remain employable. Yeah, it's, I understand the value in the picking these fights, we could have gone just as easily with vi versus Emacs, AWS versus Azure, or anything else that you really care to pick a fight with. But yeah, this is exactly the kind of pedantic fight that everyone loves to get involved with, which is why I walked a different path and pick other ridiculous arguments. >> Speaking of those ridiculous arguments that brings us to our last debate topic of the day, Corey you are probably best known for your strong feelings about the pronunciation of the acronym for Amazon Machine Image. I will not be saying how I think it is pronounced. We're going to have you argue each. Stu, you're going to argue that the acronym Amazon Machine Image should be pronounced to rhyme with butterfly. Corey, you'll be arguing that it rhymes with mommy. Stu, rhymes with butterfly. Let's hear it, 60 seconds on the clock. >> All right, well, Rachel, first of all, I wish I could go to the videotape because I have clear video evidence from a certain Corey Quinn many times arguing why AMI is the proper way to pronounce this, but it is one of these pedantic arguments, is it GIF or GIF? Sometimes you go back and you say, Okay, well, there's the way that the community did it. And the way that oh wait, the founder said it was a certain way. So the only argument against AMI, Jeff Barr, when he wrote about the history of all of the blogging that he's done from AWS said, I wish when I had launched the service that I pointed out the correct pronunciation, which I won't even deem to talk it because the community has agreed by and large that AMI is the proper way to pronounce it. And boy, the tech industry is rific on this kind of thing. Is it SQL and no SQL and you there's various ways that we butcher these constantly. So AMI, almost everyone agrees and the lead champion for this argument, of course is none other than Corey Quinn. >> Well, unfortunately today Corey needs to argue the opposite. So Corey, why does Amazon Machine Image when pronounce as an acronym rhyme with mommy? >> Because the people who built it at Amazon say that it is and an appeal to authorities generally correct when the folks built this. AWS has said repeatedly that they're willing to be misunderstood for long periods of time. And this is one of those areas in which they have been misunderstood by virtually the entire industry, but they are sticking to their guns and continuing to wind up advocating for AMI as the correct pronunciation. But I'll take it a step further. Let's take a look at the ecosystem companies. Whenever Erica Brescia, who is now the COO and GitHub, but before she wound up there, she was the founder of Bitnami. And whenever I call it Bitn AMI she looks like she is barely successfully restraining herself from punching me right in the mouth for that pronunciation of the company. Clearly, it's Bitnami named after the original source AMI, which is what the proper term pronunciation of the three letter acronym becomes. Fight me Stu. >> Interesting. Interesting argument, Stu 30 seconds, rebuttal. >> Oh, the only thing he can come up with is that, you take the word Bitnami and because it has that we know that things sound very different if you put a prefix or a suffix, if you talk to the Kubernetes founders, Kubernetes should be coop con but the people that run the conference, say it cube con so there are lots of debates between the people that create it and the community. I in general, I'm going to vote with the community most of the time. Corey, last words on this topic 'cause I know you have very strong feelings about it. >> I'm sorry, did Stu just say Kubernetes and its community as bastions of truth when it comes to pronouncing anything correctly? Half of that entire conference is correcting people's pronunciation of Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes, Kubernetes and 15 other mispronunciations that they will of course yell at you for but somehow they're right on this one. All right. >> All right, everyone, I hope you've been voting all along for who you think is winning each round, 'cause this has been a tough call. But I would like to say that's a wrap for today. big thank you to our debaters. You've been very good sports, even when I've made you argue for against things that clearly are hurting you deep down inside, we're going to take a quick break and tally all the votes. And we're going to announce a winner up on the Zoom Q and A. So go to the top of your screen, Click on Zoom Q and A to join us and hear the winner announced and also get a couple minutes to chat live with Corey and Stu. Thanks again for attending this session. And thank you again, Corey and Stu. It's been The Great Cloud Debate. All right, so each round I will announce the winner and then we're going to announce the overall winner. Remember that Corey and Stu are playing not just for bragging rights and ownership of all of the internet for the next 24 hours, but also for lunch to be donated to their local hospital. Corey is having lunch donated to the California Pacific Medical Centre. And Stu is having lunch donated to Boston Medical Centre. All right, first up round one multicloud versus monocloud. Stu, you were arguing for multicloud, Corey, you were arguing for one cloud. Stu won that one by 64% of the vote. >> The vendor fix was in. >> Yeah, well, look, CloudHealth started all in AWS by supporting customers across those environments. So and Corey you basically conceded it because we said multicloud does not mean we evenly split things up. So you got to work on those two skills, buddy, 'cause, absolutely you just handed the victory my way. So thank you so much and thank you to the audience for understanding multicloud is where we are today, and unfortunately, it's where we're gonnao be in the future. So as a whole, we're going to try to make it better 'cause it is, as Corey and I both agree, a bit of a mess right now. >> Don't get too cocky. >> One of those days the world is going to catch up with me and realize that ad hominem is not a logical fallacy so much as it is an excellent debating skill. >> Well, yeah, I was going to say, Stu, don't get too cocky because round two serverless versus containers. Stu you argued for containers, Corey you argued for serverless. Corey you won that one with 65, 66 or most percent of the vote. >> You can't fight the future. >> Yeah, and as you know Rachel I'm a big fan of serverless. I've been to the serverless comp, I actually just published an excellent interview with Liberty Mutual and what they're doing with serverless. So love the future, it's got a lot of maturity to deliver on the promise that it has today but containers isn't going anyway or either so. >> So, you're not sad that you lost that one. Got it, good concession speech. Next one up was cloud wars specifically Google. is Google a real contender in the clouds? Stu, you were arguing yes they are. Corey, you were arguing no they aren't. Corey also won this round was 72% of the votes. >> Yeah, it's one of those things where at some point, it's sort of embarrassing if you miss a six inch pot. So it's nice that that didn't happen in this case. >> Yeah, so Corey, is this the last week that we have any competitors to AWS? Is that what we're saying? And we all accept our new overlords. Thank you so much, Corey. >> Well I hope not, my God, I don't know what to be an Amazonian monoculture anymore than I do anyone else. Competition makes all of us better. But again, we're seeing a lot of anti competitive behaviour. For example, took until this year for Microsoft to finally make calculator uninstallable and I trust concerned took a long time to work its way of course. >> Yeah, and Corey, I think everyone is listening to what you've been saying about what Google's doing with Google Meet and forcing that us when we make our pieces there. So definitely there's some things that Google culture, we'd love them to clean up. And that's one of the things that's really held back Google's enterprise budget is that advertised advertising driven culture. So we will see. We are working hand-- >> That was already opted out of Hangouts, how do we fix it? We call it something else that they haven't opted out of yet. >> Hey, but Corey, I know you're looking forward to at least two months of weekly Google live stuff starting this summer. So we'll have a lot of time to talk about google. >> Let's not kid ourselves they're going to cancel it halfway through. (Stu laughs) >> Boys, I thought we didn't have any more smack talk left in you but clearly you do. So, all right, moving on. Next slide. This is the last question that we did in the main part of the debate. IBM Cloud. What about IBM Cloud was the question, Stu, you were pro, Corey you were con. Corey, you won this one again with 62% of the vote and for the main. >> It wasn't just me, IBM Cloud also won. The problem is that competition was oxymoron of the day. >> I don't know Rachel, I thought this one had a real shot as to putting where IBM fits. I thought we had a good discussion there. It seemed like some of the early voting was going my way but it just went otherwise. >> It did. We had some last minute swings in these polls. They were going one direction they rapidly swung another it's a fickle crowd today. So right now we've got Corey with three points Stu with one but really the lightning round anyone's game. They got very close here. The next question, lightning round question one, was "Game of Thrones" who deserves to sit on the Iron Throne? Stu was arguing for Jon Snow, Corey was arguing for Sansa Stark also Corey has never seen Game of Thrones. This was shockingly close with Stu at 51.5% of the vote took the crown on this King of the North Stu. >> Well, I'm thrilled and excited that King of the North pulled things out because it would have been just a complete embarrassment if I lost to Corey on this question. >> It would. >> It was the right answer, and as you said, he had no idea what he's talking about, which, unfortunately is how he is on most of the rest of it. You just don't realize that he doesn't know what he's talking about. 'Cause he uses all those fast words and discussion points. >> Well, thank you for saying the quiet part out loud. Now, I am completely crestfallen as to the results of this question about a thing I've never seen and could not possibly care less about not going in my favor. I will someday managed to get over this. >> I'm glad you can really pull yourself together and keep on going with life, Corey it's inspiring. All right, next question. Was the lightning round question two is a hot dog a sandwich? Stu, you were arguing yes. Corey, you were arguing no. Corey landslide, you won this 75% of the vote. >> It all comes down to customer expectations. >> Yeah. >> Just disappointment. Disappointment. >> All right, next question tabs versus spaces. Another very close one. Stu, what were you arguing for Stu? >> I was voting tabs. >> Tabs, yeah. And Corey, you were arguing spaces. This did not turn out the way I expected. So Stu you lost this by slim margin Corey 53% of the vote. You won with spaces. >> Yep. And I use spaces in my day to day life. So that's a position I can actually believe in. >> See, I thought I was giving you the opposite point of view there. I mistook you for the correct answer, in my opinion, which is tabs. >> Well, it is funnier to stalk me on Twitter and look what I have to there than on GitHub where I just completely commit different kinds of atrocities. So I don't blame you. >> Caught that pun there. All right, the last rounds. Speaking of atrocities, AMI, Amazon Machine Image is it pronounced AMI or AMI? >> I better not have won this one. >> So Stu you were arguing that this is pronounced AMI rhymes with butterfly. Corey, you were arguing that it's pronounced AMI like mommy. Any guesses under who won this? >> It better be Stu. >> It was a 50, 50 split complete tie. So no points to anyone. >> For your complete and utterly failed on this because I should have won in a landslide. My entire argument was based on every discussion you've had on this. So, Corey I think they're just voting for you. So I'm really surprised-- >> I think at this point it shows I'm such a skilled debater that I could have also probably brought you to a standstill taking the position that gravity doesn't exist. >> You're a master of few things, Corey. Usually it's when you were dressed up nicely and I think they like the t-shirt. It's a nice t-shirt but not how we're usually hiding behind the attire. >> Truly >> Well. >> Clothes don't always make a demand. >> Gentlemen, I would like to say overall our winner today with five points is Corey. Congratulations, Corey. >> Thank you very much. It's always a pleasure to mop the floor with you Stu. >> Actually I was going to ask Stu to give the acceptance speech for you, Corey and, Corey, if you could give a few words of concession, >> Oh, that's a different direction. Stu, we'll start with you, I suppose. >> Yeah, well, thank you to the audience. Obviously, you voted for me without really understanding that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm a loudmouth on Twitter. I just create a bunch of arguments out there. I'm influential for reasons I don't really understand. But once again, thank you for your votes so much. >> Yeah, it's always unfortunate to wind up losing a discussion with someone and you wouldn't consider it losing 'cause most of the time, my entire shtick is that I sit around and talk to people who know what they're talking about. And I look smart just by osmosis sitting next to them. Video has been rough on me. So I was sort of hoping that I'd be able to parlay that into something approaching a victory. But sadly, that hasn't worked out quite so well. This is just yet another production brought to you by theCube which shut down my original idea of calling it a bunch of squares. (Rachael laughs) >> All right, well, on that note, I would like to say thank you both Stu and Corey. I think we can close out officially the debate, but we can all stick around for a couple more minutes in case any fans have questions for either of them or want to get them-- >> Find us a real life? Yeah. >> Yeah, have a quick Zoom fight. So thanks, everyone, for attending. And thank you Stu, thank you Corey. This has been The Great Cloud Debate.

(upbeat music) >> Live, from Copenhagen, Denmark. It's theCUBE. Covering Nutanix.NEXT 2019. Brought to you by Nutanix. >> Welcome back everyone to theCUBE's live coverage of Nutanix.NEXT. We are in Copenhagen, Denmark. I'm your host, Rebecca Knight, hosting alongside Stu Miniman. We're joined by Fran Scott. She is a science and engineering presenter. Thanks so much for coming on the show. >> No worries at all. It's good to be here actually. >> So you are a well known face to UK audiences. You are a three times BAFTA nominated science and engineering presenter. Well-known. >> Give her a winner. (laughter) >> You're the Susan Lucci of science. You are the pyrotechnician and you lead the Christmas lectures at the Royal Institute. >> Yeah. I head up the demonstration team at the Royal Institution. We come up with all the science demonstrations, so the visual ways to show the science ideas. I head up that team. We build the demonstrations and we show science to people rather than just tell them about it. >> So mostly, you have a very cool job. (chuckles) >> I love my job. >> I want to hear how you got into this. What was it? What inspired you? >> Oh gosh, two very different questions. In terms of what inspired me, I was very lucky enough to be able to pursue what I love. And I came from a family where answers weren't given out willy-nilly. If you didn't know something, it wasn't a bad thing. It was like a, "Let's look it up. Let's look it up." I grew up in an atmosphere where you could be anything because you didn't have to know what you had to be. You could just have a play with it. I love being hands-on and making things, and I grew up on a farm, so I was quite practical. But I also loved science. Went to university, did neuroscience at university. I enjoyed the learning part but, where I was in terms of the science hierarchy, I found out that once you actually go into a lab, there's a lot of lab work and not much learning straight away, and it was the learning that I loved. And so my friends actually got me into science communication. They took me to the science museum and they were like, "Fran, you will love this." And I was like, "Will I?" And I was like, "You are so right." I got a job at the science museum in London by just approaching someone on that visit and being like, "How do I get a job here?" And they were like, "Well, you got to do this, this, this." I was like, "I can do that." I got the job there and I realized I loved science demonstrations and building stuff. Eventually I just combined that love of science and being practical together. And now I produce and write, build science props and science stage shows. And then it became a thing. (laughter) Hand it to me, I love it. >> So Fran, our audience is very much the technology community. Very supportive of STEM initiatives. Give us a little flavor as to some of the things you're working on. Where is there need for activities? >> I suppose the biggest example of that would be a show that I did a few years ago where there was a big push for new coders within the UK. And I was getting approached time and time again for visual ways to show computer coding. Or programming, as we used to call it back in the day. I didn't have an answer because then, I wasn't a coder. So I was like, "Well, I'll learn. And then I'll figure out a demonstration because this is what I do. So why don't I do it on coding?" And so yeah, I set about. I learnt code. And I came up with an explosions based coding show. Error 404. And we toured around the country with that. Google picked it up and it was a huge success just because it was something that people wanted to learn about. And people were stumped as to how to show coding visually. But because this is what we do day in and day out with different subjects, we could do it with coding just like we do it with physics. >> What do you think is the key? A lot of your audience is kids. >> Yes and family audiences. >> So what is the key to getting people excited about science? >> I think science itself is exciting if people are allowed to understand how brilliant it is. I think some of the trouble comes from when people take the step too big, and so you'd be like, "Hang on but, why is that cool? Why?" Because they don't under... Well they would understand if they were fed to them in a way that they get it. The way I say it is, anyone can understand anything as long as you make the steps to get there small enough. Sometimes the steps are too big for you to understand the amazingness of that thing that's happening. And if you don't understand that amazingness, of course you're going to lose interest. Because everyone around you is going, "Ah, this is awesome, this is awesome!" And you're like, "What? What's awesome?" I think it's up to us as adults and as educators to just try and not patronize the children, definitely not, but just give them those little steps so they can really see the beauty of what it is that we're in awed by. >> One of the things that is a huge issue in the technology industry is the dearth of women in particular, in the ranks of technology and then also in leadership roles. As a woman in science and also showing little girls everywhere all over the UK what it is to be a woman in science, that's a huge responsibility. How do you think of that, and how are you in particular trying to speak to them and say, "You can do this"? >> I've done a lot of research onto this because this was the reason I went into what I'm into. I worked a lot of the time behind the scenes just trying to get the science right. And then I realized there was no one like me doing science presenting. The girl was always the little bit of extra on the side and it was the man who was the knowledgeable one that was showing how to do the science. And the woman was like, "Oh, well that's amazing." And I was like, "Hang on. Let's try and flip this." And it just so happened that I didn't care if it was me. I just wanted a woman to do it. And it just happened that that was me. But now that I'm in that position, one, well I run a business as well. I run a business where we can train other new presenters to do it. It's that giving back. So yes, I train other presenters. I also make sure there's opportunity for other presenters. But I also try, and actually I work with a lot of TV shows, and work on their language. And work on the combination of like, "Okay, so you've got a man doing that, you got women doing this. Let's have a look at more diversity." And just trying to show the kids that there are people like them doing science. There's that classic phrase that, "You can't be what you can't see." So yes, it comes responsibility, but also there's a lot of fun. And if you can do the science, be intelligent, be fun, and just be normal and just enjoy your job, then people go, "Hang on," whether they're a boy or a girl, they go, "I want a bit of that," in terms of, "I want that as my job." And so by showing that, then I'm hopefully encouraging more people to do it. But it's about getting out and encouraging the next generation to do it as well. >> Fran, you're going to be moderating a panel in the keynote later this afternoon. Give our audience a little bit. What brought you to this event? What's going into it? And for those that don't get to see it live, what they're missing. >> I am one lucky woman. So the panel I'm moderating, it's all about great design and I am a stickler for great design. As a scientist, prop-builder, person that does engineering day in and day out, I love something when it's perfectly designed. If there is such a thing as a perfect design. So this panel that we've got, Tobias Manisfitz, Satish Ramachandran, and Peter Kreiner from Noma. And so they all come with their own different aspect of design. Satish works at Nutanix. Peter works at Noma, the restaurant here in Copenhagen. And Tobias, he designs the visual effects for things such as Game of Thrones and Call of Duty. And so yes, they each design things for... They're amazing at their level but in such a different way and for a different audience. I'm going to be questioning them on what is great design to them and what frictionless design means and just sort of picking their amazing brains. >> I love that fusion of technology and design as something they talked about in the keynote this morning. Think of Apple or Tesla, those two things coming together. I studied engineering and I feel like there was a missing piece of my education to really go into the design. Something I have an appreciation for, that I've seen in my career. But it's something special to bring those together. >> Yeah. I think care is brought in mostly because yes, one, I love design. But also I've worked a lot with LEGO. And so I was brought in to be the engineering judge on the UK version of LEGO Masters. Apparently, design in children's builds is the same as questioning the owner of NOMA restaurant. (chuckles) >> So what do you think? Obviously you're doing the panel tomorrow. What is in your mind the key to great design? Because as you said, you're a sucker for anything that is just beautiful and seamless and intuitive. And we all know what great design is when we hold it in our hands or look at it. But it is this very ineffable quality of something that... >> So the panel's later today actually. But in terms of great design, yes, we all know when we have great design. But the trouble comes in creating good design. I think the key, and it's always obvious when you say it out loud, but it's that hand in hand partnership with aesthetics and practicality. You can't have something that's just beautiful. But you can't have something that just works. You need to have it as a mixture of both. It's those engineers talking with the designers, the designers talking with the engineers. The both of them talking with the consumers. And from that, good design comes. But don't forget, good design means they're for different people as well. >> What are some of the most exciting things you're working on, because you are a professional pyrotechnician. We've never had someone like this on theCUBE before. This is amazing. This is a first time ever. >> I was strictly told no fire. >> Yes, thank you. We appreciate that. >> Well at the moment, as I said at the beginning, I'm lucky enough to head up the demo team at the Royal Institution. We are just heading into our Christmas lectures. Now if you don't know these Christmas lectures, they were the first science ever done to a juvenile audience. Back in 1825 was when they started. It's a tradition in the UK and so this year, we're just starting to come up with the demonstrations for them. And this year they presented by Hannah Fry, and so they're going to be on maths and algorithms and how that makes you lucky or does it make you lucky? We've been having some really fun meetings. I can't give away too much, but there definitely be some type of stunt involved. That's all I can say. But there's going to be a lot of building. I really need to get back, get my sore out, get stuff made. >> Excellent. And who is the scientist you most admire? >> Oh my word. >> Living or dead? >> Who is the scientist I most admire? (sighs) I do have... Oh gosh, this is... >> The wheels are churning. >> It's a cheesy one though, but Da Vinci. Just for his multi-pronged approach and the fact that he had so much going on in his brain that he couldn't even get everything down on paper. He'd half draw something and then something else would come to him. >> I had the opportunity of interviewing Walter Isaacson last year, and he loved... It was the, as we talked about, the science and the design and the merging of those. But reading that biography of him, what struck me is he never finished anything because it would never meet the perfection in his mind to get it done. I've seen that in creative people. They'll start things and then they'll move on to the next thing and there. Me as a engineering by training, it's like no, no. You need to finish work. Manufacturing from standpoint, work in progress is the worst thing you could have out there. >> He would be a rubbish entrepreneur. (chuckling) >> Right, but we're so lucky to have had his brain. >> Exactly. I think that's the thing. I think it gives us an insight into what the brain is capable of and what you can design without even knowing you're designing something. >> Well Fran, thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. This was so fun. >> Thanks for having me. >> I'm Rebecca Knight for Stu Miniman. Stay tuned for more of theCUBE's live coverage of .NEXT. (upbeat music)

live from Copenhagen Denmark it's the cube covering Nutanix next 2019 bought to you by Nutanix gut morgen cube inators we are here in Copenhagen Nutanix dot next I'm your host Rebecca night along with my co-hosts to minimun what what I what a what a beautiful day in Copenhagen it's such a pleasure to be co-hosting dot next with you this is a company that you have really what been watching for a long time we're here celebrating ten years of this company I'd love to just get your first uh flick off the cuff thoughts what do you think about this company how has it changed since its inception ten years ago Chuck Rebecca unfortunately is the only Danish that I know so so hopefully you'll bring that but super excited it's the ninth dot NEX that we've had the qubit which is all of them that's the eighth one I've had the pleasure attending and Rebecca as you said uh you know I've watched this company since early early days first time I went to Newt annexes office that the paint was drying on the wall there and D arrives actually the CEO founder of the company showed me here's actually from a real estate standpoint we're going to expand here and move here and if things go well like we think we will move across the street and we can really build out a corporate headquarters and actually all of that has happened so ten years of celebration here over 5,000 employees there are some things that have not changed at all from the very first interview that John Ferrara and I had with dirige it was talking about the complexity of building distributed architectures and software what what Nutanix has learned from the hyper scale players absolutely impacts what they're doing but this landscape has changed so greatly you know you know this was originally everybody thought about it was you know that that term hyper-converged infrastructure came out it was about appliances and how many boxes you have but at the core it always was software and today we're hear them talking about how you live in that hybrid and multi cloud world all of these software pieces many of which you know seem to have it they're loosely coupled with the the core a OS software which itself has gone through complete revision to be ready for cloud native the latest databases all the new things so we know there is so much change going on in our industry um but but I saw what was built here is a culture and a company not just a product and so it is a celebration I love do they started with some of their early customers and partners especially here in Europe so very international flavor of course over 50 companies countries represented at this show we can see the the energy behind us with the expo hall here and yeah you know Nutanix have been public now for about three years going through a lot of transitions and lots of stuff for us to dig into over the next absolutely we're gonna we're gonna get into all that one at one of your tweets from this morning words where you were watching the mainstage and you said Nutanix is finally starting to answer that question what is the value of Nutanix in the data center you have a devoted Twitter followings do so we're all dying to hear what it was how do you see them answering that question it isn't enough well it's actually how they fit into the hyper scale data center because we know where Nutanix fits in the on-premises data center that's where they've lived but as customers are figuring out and you know the you know the thing that gets talked about a bunch here is you know the technologies that you know most of the customers use here is virtualization in VMware of courses that still has a dominant position in this environment while almost half of all new tannic snows that shipped in the last year use ahv the Acropolis hypervisor which is free it's by Nutanix it's based off of the KVM open source the rest of them are using pregnant predominantly VMware it's a little bit of hyper-v in there but when you go to that cloud environment I want some of the same software stack I want to be able to be able to put there so right there's one of the Nuggets that they showed towards the end of the keynote today and they've teased it out a little bit over the last year it's what they calls AI clusters so that is their stack or what they call X in some of those clouds the first one interestingly enough is is AWS and I say interesting because Google has been a solution that Nutanix has been working on but AWS is actually opening up bare-metal instances so it doesn't mean you know we take our stack and we put it on the side and we have specialized hardware it's the ec2 bare-metal instances that we're going to be able to run the new Tannis software and we've seen a number of companies out there pure storages one-day Volante and Lisa Martin were at that show not that long ago talking about you know if I am truly software and I'm independent of location how can i integrate into some of these environments so that's where we see Nutanix looking to go it's in tech preview with AWS GCP something they can do for demo environments but it's not yet open to be able to put in production environments you know the hope from Nutanix and others is that Google will open that up Google is position themselves in the open cloud and then azure will be there too so other clouds so when customers choose their environments and their own data centers they're hosted environment the public clouds we know there's going to be a lot of moves and changes and it's not going to be a one-way or a one-time thing so I want to get this as solutions that give flexibility and allow me to place where I want to and then move things as my strategy needs to adjust so the really interesting stuff definitely something what will geek out with talking about the competitive landscape this is a company that is that is a solid number two of you you've talked about this a lot in your analysts reports and at these various shows too VMware if this is a this is a two horse race there's a lot of money to be made in this market where do you see this is a company somewhat under pressure but where do you see Nutanix strengths and where do you see its biggest obstacles to overcome especially as it as it goes head-to-head with VMware yes so from the early discussion about hyper-converged infrastructure it is down to two companies and it doesn't get talked as as much as it might have a couple of years ago um there were some of my peers in the industry you know three four years ago there were like 30 companies out there there were a few acquisitions Cisco made an acquisition HPE made an acquisition you know VMware has their offerings out there but really it is to you know lead horses out there if you talk from a revenue and a dollar standpoint it is VMware and their partner ships their Dell of course has did the leading offering from VMware and then Nutanix is strong and Nutanix is growing customers they've got over 14,000 customers they added over 3,500 in the last 12 months so growing strong good growth the transition from being both you know soft soft rose at the core but really kind of ridding themselves of the hard we're going to full subscription and software model has been increasing their gross margin they're up to about 80 points of gross margin up if I remember right about three three and a half from from a year ago it has moderated their revenue because if you look traditionally and say okay what's their bookings and what's their Billings it is flat even down a little bit but that is because you're shifting from well I'm pulling along a whole bunch of stuff that I'm really not taking margin on to pure software so they believe they're past the toughest piece of that transition and I'm sure Dee Ridge will be talking about that they've done the faster transition of any company that's done this he sits on the board of Adobe Adobe went to that subscription model from this software subscription so they're doing that on but the big change is really if you talk about okay you know Nutanix is number two well that's the hyper-converged market that's what we were talking about a couple years ago when we're talking the multi cloud market you're talking about companies like Microsoft in Google and Cisco and of course VMware competing there and Nutanix would not be one of the first ones that I would mention but they do have their well positioned to help their customers and what we need in cloud is the simplicity that hyper-converged solutions like Nutanix brought to the data center so Nutanix has that opportunity to reach a much broader audience and a much broader market to go from the 14,000 customers they have to literally hundreds of thousands of companies out there that need these types of solutions and if they are to be 10 years from now at they're 20 years looking back and saying where do they fit in cloud where are they as you know a true you know technology software company for businesses that is the mark that they will need to make you're what you're saying about the simplicity that is what that is the message that we are given here today is that this is all about simplicity choice and delight make computing invisible and do you think I mean that that's so that's their message that's that's the that's the marketing gambit here altogether now do you think that is it is it going to work I mean this it is it is clearly what you say that the market needs but is does Nutanix have the staying power so Rebecca I I think you'll agree what's nice is when you hear the customers out on stage you know they actually give you the reality and it is you know in the early days of these shows it was I loved Nutanix it gave me my weekends back the quote that I had from a customer that I spoke to getting ready for this show is what I loved about this they actually had a customer that the main IT staff was not really in favor of going Nutanix they were certified and knew how to use the existing hardware and software and it spent years working on that um and they followed the rules and he said I don't want IT to follow the rules I want them to try things I want them to break things um you know I want them to be able to get ahead of the business and not just meet the requirements so he said we're spending we're ramping up our spending on training and education than sending them to events like this and Nutanix is an enabler because it doesn't just work it exceeds their expectations it is better performance they have Headroom to be able to try things and throw things at it and that is exciting so it's not just as I said oh this interesting box that I stick in a corner and I don't worry about it it is changing that that culture something I've been looking at you know can some of these technologies actually drive some of that cultural changes because traditionally it's you know executive mandate you put something new in and everybody fights against it so some of this can actually be from the ground level up is I get into these tools and solutions and it changes my workflow it changes how I work between groups how do I get the developers involved there was a lot of talk about the applications the messaging that they unveiled here all together now that that resonates with I can't just have my database my apps and my data itself in siloed as to who can access it and who can use it and have to worry about oh I need nine months and hundreds of thousands of dollars to do anything I want to be able to you know IT needs to be not no or slow but go I shout out you know Cuba Lum Alan Cohen who actually interviewed at the first dot next so he was you know early supporter of Nutanix and you know that that's what the kind of the developer driven mantra is you know IT very much working with the business and if it can drive innovation I mean Rebecca we've been talking important female leader at the moment but exactly talking about how technology can drive cultural change within a large organization because Nutanix is a large organization now it's it's only ten years old but it is it is not a start-up it is it as large complex exceedingly complicated organization and so how do you drive innovation creativity change collaboration communication between different silos these are all these are all topics that we were going to delve into today another word we keep hearing a sort of a cultural buzzword at this conference is resilience and we're going to on the main stage we're going to hear from Caroline Wozniacki who is a very famous tennis player we're gonna hear from the CEO of Noma who was of course Copenhagen's famous kuelen Airy delight and of course Kit Harington yeah so anybody that watch Game of Thrones um you know Jon Snow was definitely resilient to be able to last the eight seasons and everything that happened across it so Andy rich you know one thing we really respect you know we've watched him since the early days he is very thoughtful as to how he goes and when he actually said to me yesterday's it's do you know we are you're going to hear some of the same words that some of the other vendors but the you know the why and the how underneath that for us is different and that's very important and especially in the technology space that that nuance and the you know really how's that work in how does that put together and not just that we can do it but is this the right way it doesn't make sense so they are thoughtful about how they do it and and they're moving forward so you know they definitely believe they're positioned well for the next phase of their journey and always it's been a pleasure to you know watch this and you know to talk to all the the builders the dreamers and yeah dreamers believers and builders is what they came out this morning so well we're gonna be we have a lot of great guests on the show today I'm so excited to be hosting here with you in Copenhagen at this next dot dot next so we have dirige Pandey coming up next i'm rebecca night force two minimun please keep tuned to the cube you're watching the cube

>> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and this is special On the Ground of theCUBE here at the VTUG Summer Slam 2019. We've had the pleasure of knowing the VTUG team for quite awhile back actually, when it was the New England VMUG was when I started attending. When it switched to the VTUG at Gillette Stadium's when we started doing theCUBE there. And happy to bring back to the program first, Chris Harney, who is the one who created this as a true user event. And joining him is his wife Dawn Harney, who we know is behind the scenes organizing all of this event. So, Dawn and Chris, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for sharing this community and educational process with all of us. >> Thanks Stu, it's been a pleasure. >> All right, so, Chris, we really want this, it's a celebration. Sixteen years; back in 2003 the number one movie of the year was actually Finding Nemo. Of course we waited a long time for there. It goes without saying that all of us were a little bit younger. And boy, in those days, I started working with VMR in 2002, so that journey of virtualization was real early. There was no cloud talking we had kind of the XSP's and some of the earlier things. But so much has changed, and what I have loved is this journey that the users that are attending here. We're actually here in the Expo hall, and if you look, why are there no people in here right now? Because they are all in the break out sessions understanding what are the skill sets that they need today and tomorrow to help them in their journey; virtualization, cloud, DevOps, all of these changes there. Chris, you started this as a user to help share with your peers, so, we've had you on the program many times, bring us back. >> Yeah, so think back to 2003. There was no way to share information. There's no Google, no YouTube, no Facebook groups, Meetups, no Game of Thrones. >> We had to go to books and stuff like that. >> Exactly. >> Read the paper. >> So white papers, those were the big deal. You had the Microsoft books that were two inches thick and glossy. >> Yeah, I wonder how many of our younger audience would know the acronym RTFM? Read The Fine Manual please, is what we're doing. Dawn, this event, as I said, we've been at the winter event at Gillette Stadium, you brought in some of the Patriot players we've had the pleasure of interviewing. This Summer event is epic. I know people that come from very long distances to swim in the community, get the information. There's a little bit of lobster at the end of the day. >> There's a lot of lobster at the end of the day. >> So give us the community that you look to help build and foster, and what this event has meant to you over the years. >> For me it's really a place for everybody in the community to come together and share their knowledge with their peers. Something may work for me maybe it will work for you. Let's get together and talk about it. The best way to learn something is from somebody that may have done it, or done it, messed it up, learned something, like to share it with you. So, it really is about working with your peers, learning something from your sponsors and all these companies that you work with everyday. What's new, what's going on. So this is the place to go to get all that. >> Wait, Dawn, I thought you weren't a tech person. >> I'm not a tech person. >> That answer was spot on because one of the things I loved about the virtualization community, is we were all learning in the early days. And it required a little bit of work. There's this theory known as the IKEA effect. Sometimes if you actually help build it a little bit, you actually like it a little bit more. And this community really epitomizes that in the virtualization community and cloud. We've been talking about cloud now for a decade but it's still relatively early days on how this multi-hybrid cloud fits together, how operations are changing, so, Chris, bring us through a little bit of that arc. >> Well, I'll think about it, back in 2003, there was only VMwire. There was only one virtualization platform, if you didn't use VMwire, you were doing bare metal Windows install or Unix install on physical servers. Well, back when we changed, there was Hyper-V, that was coming out, AWS was just coming out, so that's when we kind of made the jump from just being a VMwire user to a virtual technology. So we could talk about the cloud, we could share those experiences and have that same journey together, and hopefully learn and lead, get smarter together as a group, you can learn faster as a group than you can by yourself. >> Yeah, and as we know, Chris, and we've talked about this, the IT industry is never "Hey, give me a clean "sheet of paper and we'll start everything." We know it is additive and all of these things go together, so cloud did not obviate the need for virtualization, so all of these things go together, and how do I make sure as my job doesn't get completely eliminated or, I was talking to somebody who said "If I've been doing the same thing for 10 years, "will I be out of a job?" They said, "Well hopefully you really really like "what you're doing cause if you think "you can keep doing what you're doing, "that is all you will ever be able to do." And I thought that was a very poignant comment. >> Yeah, Matt Broberg's talk this morning about what's your next job going to be, what skillsets do you need to be relevant in 10 years, and it's the same thing, I mean we said the same thing 10, 15 years ago. You can't be a Windows admin anymore, you can't be a VMwire admin anymore, you can't be a cloud admin anymore in five years. >> Yeah, so Dawn, give our audience a little bit of the scope of this event, as I said, I know people that have flown in from the Carolinas, from Colorado, from all over, from California and the like, 16 years of this event, this community is not just New England, it really has had a broad impact. >> Right, and it's huge, people plan their vacations around this, I've had people come from Europe, they fly over here, stay in the state of Maine, they go to L.L. Bean, they do all those things because they plan their vacation, they know they need to be here for the VTUG event, so it's meant a lot, because you do get so many different variety of people, you have the sponsors, you have the end users, you have media, you have bloggers, you have pretty much just everybody comes together to really be that community, so it's meant a lot to me, it's been a long 16 years but it's meant a lot. >> All right, so the question people are asking, this is the final VTUG, so no more winter event at Gillette, this is the final event tonight at Gritty's, so explain to us how that happened. >> It is the final event, 16 years, we're all getting older, it's bittersweet, but we've just realized that it takes a lot of time to put these together, it takes a lot of sponsors, it takes a lot of users, the users continue to come, but unfortunately the sponsors pay for it, and really don't have that following with the sponsors that we used to have, unfortunately. >> There are a lot more events, there are a lot more ways to find customers, so they're going to the meetups and they're doing their own events. >> Yeah, to your opening point Chris, 16 years ago it was much tougher to find sources. Now the challenge we have is there's too many options out there, there are too many events, trust me, I go to too many events, but this one has always been one that we've always looked forward, so please from the community, want to say thank you so much, it has always been one of our favorite things to kick off the year with when we do the winter one, and the summer one, I've made this trip a couple of times, it is a little warm in here, I think brings back to the roots of this event, remember it was four or five years ago it was 110 degrees out, and then you switched to this facility, so of course the air conditioning decides to go out, because we know in IT, sometimes things break. >> Start in the heat, end in the heat. >> So Chris, want to give you the final word for the final VTUG. >> You know, I'm just very proud and happy with this community, it truly is a community, it wasn't us, it wasn't theCUBE, it wasn't the vendors, it was everyone working together to make a community that helped each other out, so thanks to everyone. >> Chris and Dawn, thank you so much, we're happy to be a small piece of this community, and look forward to staying in touch with you in your future endeavors. Thanks so much, I'm Stu Miniman, we have a full day of coverage here, keynote speaker, some of the users that have traveled around, really focusing on the community here at the VTUG Summer Slam, as always, thank you for watching theCUBE.