>>Good afternoon and welcome back to Detroit, Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We are live day two of our coverage of Coan Cloud Native Con North America. John, we've had great conversations. Yeah. All day yesterday. Half a day today. So far we're talking all things, Well, not all things Kubernetes so much more than that. We also have to talk about storage and data management solutions for Kubernetes projects, cuz that's obviously critical. >>Yeah, I mean the big trend here is Kubernetes going mainstream has been for a while. The adopt is crossing over, it's crossing the CADs and with that you're seeing security concerns. You're seeing things being gaps being filled. But enterprise grade is really the, the, the story. It's going enterprise, that's managed services, that's professional service, that's basically making things work at scale. This next segment hits that part and we are gonna talk about it in grade length >>With one of our alumni. Moral morale to Molly is back DP and GM of Port Work's Peer Storage. Great to have you back really? >>Yeah, absolutely. Delightful >>To be here. So I was looking on the website, number one in Kubernetes storage. Three years in a row. Yep. Awesome. What's Coworks doing here at KU Con? >>Well, I'll tell you, we, our engineering crew has been so productive and hard at work that I almost can't decide what to kind of tell you. But I thought what, what, what I thought I would do is kind of tell you that we are in forefront of two major trends in the world of Kubernetes. Right? And the, the two trends that I see are one is as a service, so is trend number one. So it's not software eating the world anymore. That's, that's old, old, old news. It's as a service unifying the world. The world wants easy, We all are, you know, subscribers to things like Netflix. We've been using Salesforce or other HR functions. Everything is as a service. And in the world of Kubernetes, it's a sign of that maturity that John was talking about as a platform that now as a service is the big trend. >>And so headline number one, if you will, is that Port Works is leading in the data management world for Kubernetes by providing, we're going all in on easy on as a service. So everything we do, we are satisfying it, right? So if you think, if you think about, if you think about this, that, that there are really, most of the people who are consuming Kubernetes are people who are building platforms for their dev users. And dev users want self service. That's one of the advantages of, of, of Kubernetes. And the more it is service size and made as a service, the more ready to consume it is. And so we are announcing at the show that we have, you know, the basic Kubernetes data management as a service, ha d r as a service. We have backup as a service and we have database as a service. So these are the three major components of data. And all of those are being made available as a service. And in fact, we're offering and announcing at the show our backup as a service freemium version where you can get free forever a terabyte of, of, you know, stuff to do for Kubernetes for forever. >>Congratulations on the announcement. Totally. In line with what the market wants. Developers want Selfer, they wanna also want simplicity by the way they'll leave if they don't like the service. Correct. So that you, you know that before we get into some more specifics, I want Yeah. Ask you on the industry and some of the point solutions you have, what, it's been two years since the acquisition with Pure Storage. Can you just give an update on how it's gone? Obviously as a service, you guys are hitting all your Marks, developers love it. Storage are big part of the game right now as well as these environments. Yeah. What's the update post acquisition two years. You had a great offering Stay right In >>Point Works. Yeah. So look, John, you're, you're, you're a veteran of the industry and have seen lots of acquisitions, right? And I've been acquired twice before myself. So, you know, there's, there's always best practices and poor practices in terms of acquisitions and I'm, you know, really delighted to say I think this, this acquisition has had some of the best practices. Let me just name a couple of them, right? One of them is just cultural fit, right? Cultural fit is great. Entrepreneurs, anybody, it's not just entrepreneurs. Everybody loves to work in a place they enjoy working with, with people that they, you know, thrive when they, when they interact with. And so the cultural fit with, with Pure is fantastic. The other one is the strategic intent that Pure had when they acquired us is still true. And so that goes a long way, you know, in terms of an investment profile, in terms of the ability to kind of leverage assets within the company. So Pure had kind of disrupted the world of storage using Flash and they wanted to disrupt higher up the stack using Kubernetes. And that's kind of been our role inside their strategy. And it's, it's still true. >>So culture, strategic intent. Yeah. Product market fit as well. You were, you weren't just an asset for customers or acquisition and then let the founders go through their next thing. You are part of their growth play. >>Absolutely. Right. The, the beauty of, of the kind of product market fit is, let's talk about the market is we have been always focused on the global two k and that is at the heart of, you know, purest 10,000 strong customer base, right? They have very strong presence in the, in the global two k. And we, we allow them to kind of go to those same folks with, with the offering. >>So satisfying everything that you do. What's for me as a business, whether I'm a financial services organization, I'm a hospital, I'm a retailer, what's in it for me >>As a customer? Yeah. So the, the what's in it for, for me is two things. It's speed and ease of use, which in a way are related. But, but, but you know, one is when something is provided as a service, it's much more consumable. It's instantly ready. It's like instant oatmeal, right? You just get it just ad hot water and it's there. Yep. So the world of of it has moved from owning large data centers, right? That used to be like 25 years ago and running those data centers better than everybody else to move to let me just consume a data center in the form of a cloud, right? So satisfying the cloud part of the data center. Now people are saying, well I expect that for software and services and I don't want it just from the public cloud, I want it from my own IT department. >>This is old news. And so the, the, the big news here is how fast Kubernetes has kind of moved everything. You know, you take a lot of these changes, Kubernetes is a poster child for things happening faster than the last wave. And in the last couple of years I would say that as a service model has really kind of thrived in the world of Kubernetes. And developers want to be able to get it fast. And the second thing is they want to be able to operate it fast. Self-service is the other benefit. Yeah. So speed and self-service are both benefits of, of >>This. Yeah. And, and the thing that's come up clearly in the cube, this is gonna be part of the headlines we'll probably end up getting a lot of highlights from telling my team to make a note of this, is that developers are gonna be be the, the business if you, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, they're not a department that serves the business, they are the business that means Exactly. They have to be more productive. So developer productivity has been the top story. Yes. Security as a serves all these things. These are, these are examples to make developers more productive. But one of the things that came up and I wanna get your reaction to is, is that when you have disruption and, and the storage vision, you know what disruption it means. Cuz there's been a whole discussion around disruptive operations. When storage goes down, you have back m dr and failover. If there's a disruption that changes the nature of invisible infrastructure, developers want invisible infrastructure. That's the future steady state. So if there's a disruption in storage >>Yeah. It >>Can't affect the productivity and the tool chains and the workflows of developers. Yep. Right? So how do you guys look at that? Cuz you're a critical component. Storage is a service is a huge thing. Yeah. Storage has to, has to work seamlessly. And let's keep the developers out of the weeds. >>John. I think what, what what you put your finger on is another huge trend in the world of Kubernetes where at Cube Con, after all, which is really where, where all the leading practitioners both come and the leading vendors are. So here's the second trend that we are leading and, and actually I think it's happening not just with us, but with other, for folks in the industry. And that is, you know, the world of DevOps. Like DevOps has been such a catchphrase for all, all of us in the industry last five years. And it's been both a combination of cultural change as well as technology change. Here's what the latest is on the, in the world of DevOps. DevOps is now crystallized. It's not some kind of mysterious art form that you read about how people are practicing. DevOps is, it's broken into two, two things now. >>There is the platform part. So DevOps is now a bunch of platforms. And the other part of DevOps is a bunch of practices. So a little bit on both these, the platforms in the world of es there's only three platforms, right? There's the orchestration platforms, the, you know, eks, the open ships of the world and so on. There are the data management platforms, pro people like Port Works. And the third is security platforms, right? You know, Palo Alto Networks, others Aqua or all in this. So these are the three platforms and there are platform engineering teams now that many of our largest customers, some of the largest banks, the largest service providers, they're all operating as a ES platform engineering team. And then now developers, to your point, developers are in the practice of being able to use these platforms to launch new services. So the, the actual IT ops, the ops are run by developers now and they can do it on these platforms. And the platform engineering team provide that as an ease of use and they're there to troubleshoot when problems happen. So the idea of DevOps as a ops practice and a platform is the newest thing. E and, and ports and pure storage leading in the world of data management platforms >>There. Talk about a customer example that you think really articulates the value that Port Works and Pure Storage delivers from a data management perspective. >>Yeah, so there's so many examples. One of the, one of the longest running examples we have is a very, very large service provider that, you know, you all know and probably use, and they have been using us in the cable kinda set box or cable box business. They get streams of data from, from cable boxes all over the world. They collected all in a centralized large kind of thing and run elastic search and analytics on it. Now what they have done is they couldn't keep up with this at the scale and the depth, right? The speed of, of activity and the distributed nature of the activity. The only way to solve this was to use something like Kubernetes manage with Spark coming, bringing all the data in to deep, deep, deep silos of storage, which are all running not even on a sand, but on kind of, you know, very deep terabytes and terabytes of, of storage. So all of this is orchestrated with the Heco coworks and there's a platform engineering team. We are building that platform for them with some of these other components that allows them to kind of do analytics and, and make some changes in real time. Huge kind of setup for, for >>That. Yeah. Well, you guys have the right architecture. I love the vision. I love what you guys are doing. I think this is right in line with Pures. They've always been disruptors. I remember when we first interviewed the CEO when they started Yep. They, they stayed on path. They didn't waiver. EMC was the big player. They ended up taking their lunch and dinner as well and they beat 'em in the marketplace. But now you got this traction here. So I have to ask you, how's the business, what's the results look like? Either GM cloud native business unit of a storage company that's transformed and transforming? >>Yeah, you know, it's interesting, we just hit the two year anniversary, right John? And so what we did was just kind of like step back and hey, you know, we're running so hard, you just take a step back. And we've tripled the business in the two years since the acquisition, the two years before and, and we were growing through proven. So, you know, that that's quite a fe and we've tripled the number of people, the amount of engineering investments we have, the number of go to market investments have, have been, have been awesome. So business is going really well though, I will say. But I think, you know, we have, we can't be, we we're watching the market closely. You know, as a former ceo, I, you have to kind of learn to read the tea leaves when you invest. And I think, you know, what I would say is we're proceeding with caution in the next two quarters. I view business transformation as not a cancelable activity. So that's the, that's the good news, right? Our customers are large, it's, >>It's >>Right. All they're gonna do is say, Hey, they're gonna put their hand, their hand was always going right on the dial. Now they're kind of putting their hand on the dial going, hey, where, what is happening? But my, my own sense of this is that people will continue to invest through it. The question is at what level? And I also think that this is a six month kind of watch, the watch where, where we put the dial. So Q4 and q1 I think are kind of, you know, we have our, our watch kind of watch the market sign. But I have the highest confidence. What >>Does your gut tell you? You're an entrepreneur, >>Which my, my gut says that we'll go through a little bit of a cautious investment period in the next six months. And after that I think we're gonna be back in, back full, full in the crazy growth that we've always been. We're gonna grow by the way, in the next think >>It's core style. I think I'm, I'm more bullish. I think there's gonna be some, you know, weeding out of some overinvestment pre C or pre bubble. But I think tech's gonna continue to grow. I don't see >>It's stopping. Yeah. And, and the investment is gonna be on these core platforms. See, back to the platform story, it's gonna be in these core platforms and on unifying everything, let's consume it better rather than let's go kind of experiment with a whole bunch of things all over the map, right? So you'll see less experimentation and more kind of, let's harvest some of the investments we've made in the last couple >>Of years and actually be able to, to enable companies in any industry to truly be data companies. Because absolutely. We talked about as a service, we all have these expectations that any service we want, we can get it. Yes. There's no delay because patients has gone Yeah. From the pandemic. >>So it is kind of, you know, tightening up the screws on what they've built. They, you know, adding some polish to it, adding some more capability, like I said, a a a, a combination of harvesting and new investing. It's a combination I think is what we're gonna see. >>Yeah. What are some of the things that you're looking forward to? You talked about some of the, the growth things in the investment, but as we round out Q4 and head into a new year, what are you excited about? >>Yeah, so you know, I mentioned our, as a service kind of platform, the global two K for us has been a set of customers who we co-create stuff with. And so one of the other set of things that we are very excited about and announcing is because we're deployed at scale, we're, we're, we have upgraded our backend. So we have now the ability to go to million IOPS and more and, and for, for the right backends. And so Kubernetes is a add-on which will not slow down your, your core base infrastructure. Second thing that that we, we have is added a bunch of capability in the disaster recovery business continuity front, you know, we always had like metro kind of distance dr. We had long distance dr. We've added a near sync Dr. So now we can provide disaster recovery and business continuity for metro distances across continents and across the planet. Right? That's kind of a major change that we've done. The third thing is we've added the capability for file block and Object. So now by adding object, we're really a complete solution. So it is really that maturity of the business Yeah. That you start seeing as enterprises move to embracing a platform approach, deploying it much more widely. You talked about the early majority. Yeah. Right. And so what they require is more enterprise class capability and those are all the things that we've been adding and we're really looking forward >>To it. Well it sounds like tremendous evolution and maturation of Port Works in the two years since it's been with Pure Storage. You talked about the cultural alignment, great stuff that you're achieving. Congratulations on that. Yeah. Great stuff >>Ahead and having fun. Let's not forget that, that's too life's too short to do. It is right. >>You're right. Thank you. We will definitely, as always on the cube, keep our eyes on this space. Mur. Meley, it's been great to have you back on the program. Thank you for joining, John. >>Thank you so much. It's pleasure. Our, >>For our guests and John Furrier, Lisa Martin here live in Detroit with the cube about Coan Cloud Native Con at 22. We'll be back after a short break.

>>Good afternoon and welcome back to Detroit, Lisa Martin here with John Furrier. We are live day two of our coverage of Coan Cloud Native, Con North America. John, we've had great conversations. Yeah. All day yesterday. Half a day today. So far we're talking all things, Well, not all things Kubernetes so much more than that. We also have to talk about storage and data management solutions for Kubernetes projects, cuz that's obviously critical. >>Yeah, I mean the big trend here is Kubernetes going mainstream has been for a while. The adopt is crossing over, it's crossing the CADs and with that you're seeing security concerns. You're seeing things being gaps being filled. But enterprise grade is really the, the, the story. It's going enterprise, that's managed services, that's professional service, that's basically making things work at scale. This next segment hits that, that part, and we're gonna talk about it in grade length >>With one of our alumni morale to Molly is back VP and GM of Port Work's peer Storage. Great to have you back really? >>Yeah, absolutely. Delightful to >>Be here. So I was looking on the website, number one in Kubernetes storage. Three years in a row. Yep. Awesome. What's Coworks doing here at KU Con? >>Well, I'll tell you, we, our engineering crew has been so productive and hard at work that I almost can't decide what to kind of tell you. But I thought what, what, what I thought I would do is kind of tell you that we are in forefront of two major trends in the world of es. Right? And the, the two trends that I see are one is as a service, so is trend number one. So it's not software eating the world anymore. That's, that's old, old, old news. It's as a service, unifying the world. The world wants easy, We all are, you know, subscribers to things like Netflix. We've been using Salesforce or other HR functions. Everything is as a service. And in the world of Kubernetes, it's a sign of that maturity that John was talking about as a platform that now as a service is the big trend. >>And so headline number one, if you will, is that Port Works is leading in the data management world for the Kubernetes by providing, we're going all in on easy on as a service. So everything we do, we are satisfying it, right? So if you think, if you think about, if you think about this, that, that there are really, most of the people who are consuming Kubernetes are people who are building platforms for their dev users and their users want self service. That's one of the advantages of, of, of Kubernetes. And the more it is service size and made as a service, the more ready to consume it is. And so we are announcing at the show that we have, you know, the basic Kubernetes data management as a service, ha d r as a service. We have backup as a service and we have database as a service. So these are the three major components of data. And all of those are being made available as a service. And in fact, we're offering and announcing at the show our backup as a service freemium version where you can get free forever a terabyte of, of, you know, stuff to do for Kubernetes for forever. >>Congratulations on the announcement. Totally. In line with what the market wants. Developers want self serve, they wanna also want simplicity by the way they'll leave if they don't like the service. Correct. So that you, you know, that before we get into some more specifics, I want to Yeah. Ask you on the industry and some of the point solutions you have, what, it's been two years since the acquisition with Pure Storage. Can you just give an update on how it's gone? Obviously as a service, you guys are hitting all your Marks, developers love it. Storage a big part of the game right now as well as these environments. Yeah. What's the update post acquisition two years, You had a great offering Stay >>Right In Point Works. Yeah. So look, John, you're, you're, you're a veteran of the industry and have seen lots of acquisitions, right? And I've been acquired twice before myself. So, you know, there's, there's always best practices and poor practices in terms of acquisitions and I'm, you know, really delighted to say I think this, this acquisition has had some of the best practices. Let me just name a couple of them, right? One of them is just cultural fit, right? Cultural fit is great. Entrepreneurs, anybody, it's not just entrepreneurs. Everybody loves to work in a place they enjoy working with, with people that they, you know, thrive when they, when they interact with. And so the cultural fit with, with Pure is fantastic. The other one is the strategic intent that Pure had when they acquired us is still true. And so that goes a long way, you know, in terms of an investment profile, in terms of the ability to kind of leverage assets within the company. So Pure had kind of disrupted the world of storage using Flash and they wanted to disrupt higher up the stack using Kubernetes. And that's kind of been our role inside their strategy. And it's, it's still true. >>So culture, strategic intent. Yeah. Product market fit as well. You were, you weren't just an asset for customers or acquisition and then let the founders go through their next thing. You are part of their growth play. >>Absolutely. Right. The, the beauty of, of the kind of product market fit is, let's talk about the market is we have been always focused on the global two k and that is at the heart of, you know, purest 10,000 strong customer base, right? They have very strong presence in the, in the global two k. And we, we allow them to kind of go to those same folks with, with the offering. >>So satisfying everything that you do. What's for me as a business, whether I'm a financial services organization, I'm a hospital, I'm a retailer, what's in it for me >>As a customer? Yeah. So the, the what's in it for, for me is two things. It's speed and ease of use, which in a way are related. But, but, but you know, one is when something is provided as a service, it's much more consumable. It's instantly ready. It's like instant oatmeal, right? You just get it just adho water and it's there. Yep. So the world of of IT has moved from owning large data centers, right? That used to be like 25 years ago and running those data centers better than everybody else to move to let me just consume a data center in the form of a cloud, right? So satisfying the cloud part of the data center. Now people are saying, well I expect that for software and services and I don't want it just from the public cloud, I want it from my own IT department. >>This is old news. And so the, the, the big news here is how fast Kubernetes has kind of moved everything. You know, you take a lot of these changes, Kubernetes is a poster child for things happening faster than the last wave. And in the last couple of years I would say that as a service model has really kind of thrived in the world of Kubernetes. And developers want to be able to get it fast. And the second thing is they wanna be able to operate it fast. Self-service is the other benefit. Yeah. So speed and self-service are both benefits of, of >>This. Yeah. And, and the thing that's come up clearly in the cube, and this is gonna be part of the headlines, we'll probably end up getting a lot of highlights from telling my team to make a note of this, is that developers are gonna be be the business if you, if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, they're not a department that serves the business, they are the business that means Exactly. They have to be more productive. So developer productivity has been the top story. Yes. Security as a services, all these things. These are, these are examples to make developers more productive. But one of the things that came up and I wanna get your reaction to Yeah. Is, is that when you have disruption and, and the storage vision, you know what disruption it means. Cuz there's been a whole discussion around disruptive operations. When storage goes down, you have back DR. And failover. If there's a disruption that changes the nature of invisible infrastructure, developers want invisible infrastructure. That's the future steady state. So if there's a disruption in storage >>Yeah. It >>Can't affect the productivity and the tool chains and the workflows of developers. Yep. Right? So how do you guys look at that? Cause you're a critical component. Storage is a service, it's a huge thing. Yeah. Storage has to, has to work seamlessly. And let's keep the developers out of the weeds. >>John. I think what, what what you put your finger on is another huge trend in the world of Kubernetes where Atan after all, which is really where, where all the leading practitioners both come and the leading vendors are. So here's the second trend that we are leading and, and actually I think it's happening not just with us, but with other, for folks in the industry. And that is, you know, the world of DevOps. Like DevOps has been such a catchphrase for all of of us in the industry last five years. And it's been both a combination of cultural change as well as technology change. Here's what the latest is on the, in the world of DevOps. DevOps is now crystallized. It's not some kind of mysterious art form that you read about. Okay. How people are practicing. DevOps is, it's broken into two, two things now. >>There is the platform part. So DevOps is now a bunch of platforms. And the other part of DevOps is a bunch of practices. So a little bit on both these, the platforms in the world of es there's only three platforms, right? There's the orchestration platforms, the, you know, eks, the open ships of the world and so on. There are the data management platforms, pro people like Port Works. And the third is security platforms, right? You know, Palo Alto Networks, others Aqua are all in this. So these are the three platforms and there are platform engineering teams now that many of our largest customers, some of the largest banks, the largest service providers, they're all operating as a ES platform engineering team. And then now developers, to your point, developers are in the practice of being able to use these platforms to launch new services. So the, the actual IT ops, the ops are run by developers now and they can do it on these platforms. And the platform engineering team provide that as an ease of use and they're there to troubleshoot when problems happen. So the idea of DevOps as a ops practice and a platform is the newest thing. And, and ports and pure storage leading in the world of data management >>Platforms there. Talk about a customer example that you think really articulates the value that Port Works and Pure Storage delivers from a data management >>Perspective. Yeah, so there's so many examples. One of the, one of the longest running examples we have is a very, very large service provider that, you know, you all know and probably use, and they have been using us in the cable kind of set box or cable box business. They get streams of data from, from cable boxes all over the world. They collected all in a centralized large kind of thing and run elastic search and analytics on it. Now what they have done is they couldn't keep up with this at the scale and the depth, right? The speed of, of activity and the distributed nature of the activity. The only way to solve this was to use something like Kubernetes manage with Spark coming, bringing all the data in into deep, deep, deep silos of storage, which are all running not even on a sand, but on kind of, you know, very deep terabytes and terabytes of, of storage. So all of this is orchestrated with the he of Coworks and there's a platform engineering team. We are building that platform for them, them with some of these other components that allows them to kind of do analytics and, and make some changes in real time. Huge kind of setup for, for >>That. Yeah. Well, you guys have the right architecture. I love the vision. I love what you guys are doing. I think this is right in line with Pures. They've always been disruptors. I remember when we first interviewed the CEO and they started Yep. They, they stayed on path. They didn't waver. EMC was the big player. They ended up taking their lunch and dinner as well and they beat 'em in the marketplace. But now you got this traction here. So I have to ask you, how's the business, what's the results look like? You're a GM cloud native business unit of a storage company that's transformed and transforming. >>Yeah, you know, it's interesting, we just hit the two year anniversary, right John? And so what we did was just kind of like step back and hey to, you know, we're running so hard, you just take a step back and we've tripled the business in the two years since the acquisition, the two years before and, and we were growing through proven. So, you know, that that's quite a fee. And we've tripled the number of people, the amount of engineering investments we have, the number of go to market investments have been, have been awesome. So business is going really well though, I will say. But I think, you know, we have, we can't be, we're watching the market closely. You know, as a former ceo, I, you have to kind of learn to read the tea leaves when you invest. And I think, you know, what I would say is we're proceeding with caution in the next two quarters. I view business transformation as not a cancelable activity. So that's the, that's the good news, right? Our customers are large, >>It's >>Right. Never gonna stop prices, right? All they're gonna do is say, Hey, they're gonna put their hand, their hand was always going right on the dial. Now they're kind of putting their hand on the dial going, hey, where, what is happening? But my, my own sense of this is that people who continue to invest through it, the question is at what level? And I also think that this is a six month kind of watch, the watch where, where we put the dial. So Q4 and q1 I think are kind of, you know, we have our, our watch kind of watch the market sign. But I have the highest confidence. What >>Does your gut tell you? You're an >>Entrepreneur. My, my gut says that we'll go through a little bit of a cautious investment period in the next six months. And after that I think we're gonna be back in, back full, full in the crazy growth that we've always been. Yeah. We're gonna grow by the way, in the next, I think >>It's corn style. I think I'm, I'm more bullish. I think it's gonna be some, you know, weeding out of some overinvestment, pre covid or pre bubble. But I think tech's gonna continue to grow. I don't see >>It's stopping. Yeah. And, and the investment is gonna be on these core platforms. See, back to the platform story, it's gonna be in these lower platforms and on unifying everything, let's consume it better rather than let's go kind of experiment with a whole bunch of things all over the map, right? So you'll see less experimentation and more kind of, let's harvest some of the investments we've made in the last couple >>Of years and actually be able to, to enable companies in, in the industry to truly be data companies because absolutely. We talked about as a service, we all have these expectations that any service we want, we can get it. Yes. There's no delay because patients has gone Yeah. From the pandemic. >>So it is kind of, you know, tightening up the screws on what they've built. They, you know, adding some polish to it, adding some more capability, like I said, a, a a, a combination of harvesting and new investing. It's a combination I think is what we're gonna see. >>Yeah. What are some of the things that you're looking forward to? You talked about some of the, the growth things in the investment, but as we round out Q4 and head into a new year, what are you excited about? >>Yeah, so, you know, I mentioned our, as a service kind of platform. The global two K for us has been a set of customers who we co-create stuff with. And so one of the other set of things that we are very excited about and announcing is because we're deployed at scale, we're, we're, we have upgraded our backend. So we have now the ability to go to million IOPS and more and, and for, for the right backends. And so Kubernetes is a add-on, which will not slow down your, your core base infrastructure. Second thing that that we, we have is added a bunch of capability in the disaster recovery business continuity front, you know, we always had like metro kind of distance Dr. We had long distance dr. We've added a near sync Dr. So now we can provide disaster recovery and business continuity for metro distances across continents and across the planet. Right? That's kind of a major change that we've done. The third thing is we've added the capability for file block and Object. So now by adding object, we're really a complete solution. So it is really that maturity of the business Yeah. That you start seeing as enterprises move to embracing a platform approach, deploying it much more widely. You talked about the early majority. Yeah. Right. And so what they require is more enterprise class capability and those are all the things that we've been adding and we're really looking forward to it. >>Well it sounds like tremendous evolution and maturation of Port Works in the two years since it's been with Pure Storage. You talked about the cultural alignment, Great stuff that you are achieving. Congratulations on that. Great stuff >>Ahead and having fun. Let's not forget that that's too life's too short to do. It is. You're right. >>Right. Thank you. We will definitely, as always on the cube, keep our eyes on this space. Mur. Meley, it's been great to have you back on the program. Thank you for joining, John. >>Great. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Our, >>For our guests and John Furrier, Lisa Martin here live in Detroit with the cube about Cob Con Cloud native Con at 22. We'll be back after a short break.

>> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR, this is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The pandemic has changed the way we think about and predict the future. As we enter the third year of a global pandemic, we see the significant impact that it's had on technology strategy, spending patterns, and company fortunes Much has changed. And while many of these changes were forced reactions to a new abnormal, the trends that we've seen over the past 24 months have become more entrenched, and point to the way that's coming ahead in the technology business. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we welcome our partner and colleague and business friend, Erik Porter Bradley, as we deliver what's becoming an annual tradition for Erik and me, our predictions for Enterprise Technology in 2022 and beyond Erik, welcome. Thanks for taking some time out. >> Thank you, Dave. Luckily we did pretty well last year, so we were able to do this again. So hopefully we can keep that momentum going. >> Yeah, you know, I want to mention that, you know, we get a lot of inbound predictions from companies and PR firms that help shape our thinking. But one of the main objectives that we have is we try to make predictions that can be measured. That's why we use a lot of data. Now not all will necessarily fit that parameter, but if you've seen the grading of our 2021 predictions that Erik and I did, you'll see we do a pretty good job of trying to put forth prognostications that can be declared correct or not, you know, as black and white as possible. Now let's get right into it. Our first prediction, we're going to go run into spending, something that ETR surveys for quarterly. And we've reported extensively on this. We're calling for tech spending to increase somewhere around 8% in 2022, we can see there on the slide, Erik, we predicted spending last year would increase by 4% IDC. Last check was came in at five and a half percent. Gardner was somewhat higher, but in general, you know, not too bad, but looking ahead, we're seeing an acceleration from the ETR September surveys, as you can see in the yellow versus the blue bar in this chart, many of the SMBs that were hard hit by the pandemic are picking up spending again. And the ETR data is showing acceleration above the mean for industries like energy, utilities, retail, and services, and also, notably, in the Forbes largest 225 private companies. These are companies like Mars or Koch industries. They're predicting well above average spending for 2022. So Erik, please weigh in here. >> Yeah, a lot to bring up on this one, I'm going to be quick. So 1200 respondents on this, over a third of which were at the C-suite level. So really good data that we brought in, the usual bucket of, you know, fortune 500, global 2000 make up the meat of that median, but it's 8.3% and rising with momentum as we see. What's really interesting right now is that energy and utilities. This is usually like, you know, an orphan stock dividend type of play. You don't see them at the highest point of tech spending. And the reason why right now is really because this state of tech infrastructure in our energy infrastructure needs help. And it's obvious, remember the Florida municipality break reach last year? When they took over the water systems or they had the ability to? And this is a real issue, you know, there's bad nation state actors out there, and I'm no alarmist, but the energy and utility has to spend this money to keep up. It's really important. And then you also hit on the retail consumer. Obviously what's happened, the work from home shift created a shop from home shift, and the trends that are happening right now in retail. If you don't spend and keep up, you're not going to be around much longer. So I think the really two interesting things here to call out are energy utilities, usually a laggard in IT spend and it's leading, and also retail consumer, a lot of changes happening. >> Yeah. Great stuff. I mean, I recall when we entered the pandemic, really ETR was the first to emphasize the impact that work from home was going to have, so I really put a lot of weight on this data. Okay. Our next prediction is we're going to get into security, it's one of our favorite topics. And that is that the number one priority that needs to be addressed by organizations in 2022 is security and you can see, in this slide, the degree to which security is top of mind, relative to some other pretty important areas like cloud, productivity, data, and automation, and some others. Now people may say, "Oh, this is obvious." But I'm going to add some context here, Erik, and then bring you in. First, organizations, they don't have unlimited budgets. And there are a lot of competing priorities for dollars, especially with the digital transformation mandate. And depending on the size of the company, this data will vary. For example, while security is still number one at the largest public companies, and those are of course of the biggest spenders, it's not nearly as pronounced as it is on average, or in, for example, mid-sized companies and government agencies. And this is because midsized companies or smaller companies, they don't have the resources that larger companies do. Larger companies have done a better job of securing their infrastructure. So these mid-size firms are playing catch up and the data suggests cyber is even a bigger priority there, gaps that they have to fill, you know, going forward. And that's why we think there's going to be more demand for MSSPs, managed security service providers. And we may even see some IPO action there. And then of course, Erik, you and I have talked about events like the SolarWinds Hack, there's more ransomware attacks, other vulnerabilities. Just recently, like Log4j in December. All of this has heightened concerns. Now I want to talk a little bit more about how we measure this, you know, relatively, okay, it's an obvious prediction, but let's stick our necks out a little bit. And so in addition to the rise of managed security services, we're calling for M&A and/or IPOs, we've specified some names here on this chart, and we're also pointing to the digital supply chain as an area of emphasis. Again, Log4j really shone that under a light. And this is going to help the likes of Auth0, which is now Okta, SailPoint, which is called out on this chart, and some others. We're calling some winners in end point security. Erik, you're going to talk about sort of that lifecycle, that transformation that we're seeing, that migration to new endpoint technologies that are going to benefit from this reset refresh cycle. So Erik, weigh in here, let's talk about some of the elements of this prediction and some of the names on that chart. >> Yeah, certainly. I'm going to start right with Log4j top of mind. And the reason why is because we're seeing a real paradigm shift here where things are no longer being attacked at the network layer, they're being attacked at the application layer, and in the application stack itself. And that is a huge shift left. And that's taking in DevSecOps now as a real priority in 2022. That's a real paradigm shift over the last 20 years. That's not where attacks used to come from. And this is going to have a lot of changes. You called out a bunch of names in there that are, they're either going to work. I would add to that list Wiz. I would add Orca Security. Two names in our emerging technology study, in addition to the ones you added that are involved in cloud security and container security. These names are either going to get gobbled up. So the traditional legacy names are going to have to start writing checks and, you know, legacy is not fair, but they're in the data center, right? They're, on-prem, they're not cloud native. So these are the names that money is going to be flowing to. So they're either going to get gobbled up, or we're going to see some IPO's. And on the other thing I want to talk about too, is what you mentioned. We have CrowdStrike on that list, We have SentinalOne on the list. Everyone knows them. Our data was so strong on Tanium that we actually went positive for the first time just today, just this morning, where that was released. The trifecta of these are so important because of what you mentioned, under resourcing. We can't have security just tell us when something happens, it has to automate, and it has to respond. So in this next generation of EDR and XDR, an automated response has to happen because people are under-resourced, salaries are really high, there's a skill shortage out there. Security has to become responsive. It can't just monitor anymore. >> Yeah. Great. And we should call out too. So we named some names, Snyk, Aqua, Arctic Wolf, Lacework, Netskope, Illumio. These are all sort of IPO, or possibly even M&A candidates. All right. Our next prediction goes right to the way we work. Again, something that ETR has been on for awhile. We're calling for a major rethink in remote work for 2022. We had predicted last year that by the end of 2021, there'd be a larger return to the office with the norm being around a third of workers permanently remote. And of course the variants changed that equation and, you know, gave more time for people to think about this idea of hybrid work and that's really come in to focus. So we're predicting that is going to overtake fully remote as the dominant work model with only about a third of the workers back in the office full-time. And Erik, we expect a somewhat lower percentage to be fully remote. It's now sort of dipped under 30%, at around 29%, but it's still significantly higher than the historical average of around 15 to 16%. So still a major change, but this idea of hybrid and getting hybrid right, has really come into focus. Hasn't it? >> Yeah. It's here to stay. There's no doubt about it. We started this in March of 2020, as soon as the virus hit. This is the 10th iteration of the survey. No one, no one ever thought we'd see a number where only 34% of people were going to be in office permanently. That's a permanent number. They're expecting only a third of the workers to ever come back fully in office. And against that, there's 63% that are saying their permanent workforce is going to be either fully remote or hybrid. And this, I can't really explain how big of a paradigm shift this is. Since the start of the industrial revolution, people leave their house and go to work. Now they're saying that's not going to happen. The economic impact here is so broad, on so many different areas And, you know, the reason is like, why not? Right? The productivity increase is real. We're seeing the productivity increase. Enterprises are spending on collaboration tools, productivity tools, We're seeing an increased perception in productivity of their workforce. And the CFOs can cut down an expense item. I just don't see a reason why this would end, you know, I think it's going to continue. And I also want to point out these results, as high as they are, were before the Omicron wave hit us. I can only imagine what these results would have been if we had sent the survey out just two or three weeks later. >> Yeah. That's a great point. Okay. Next prediction, we're going to look at the supply chain, specifically in how it's affecting some of the hardware spending and cloud strategies in the future. So in this chart, ETRS buyers, have you experienced problems procuring hardware as a result of supply chain issues? And, you know, despite the fact that some companies are, you know, I would call out Dell, for example, doing really well in terms of delivering, you can see that in the numbers, it's pretty clear, there's been an impact. And that's not not an across the board, you know, thing where vendors are able to deliver, especially acute in PCs, but also pronounced in networking, also in firewall servers and storage. And what's interesting is how companies are responding and reacting. So first, you know, I'm going to call the laptop and PC demand staying well above pre-COVID norms. It had peaked in 2012. Pre-pandemic it kept dropping and dropping and dropping, in terms of, you know, unit volume, where the market was contracting. And we think can continue to grow this year in double digits in 2022. But what's interesting, Erik, is when you survey customers, is despite the difficulty they're having in procuring network hardware, there's as much of a migration away from existing networks to the cloud. You could probably comment on that. Their networks are more fossilized, but when it comes to firewalls and servers and storage, there's a much higher propensity to move to the cloud. 30% of customers that ETR surveyed will replace security appliances with cloud services and 41% and 34% respectively will move to cloud compute and storage in 2022. So cloud's relentless march on traditional on-prem models continues. Erik, what do you make of this data? Please weigh in on this prediction. >> As if we needed another reason to go to the cloud. Right here, here it is yet again. So this was added to the survey by client demand. They were asking about the procurement difficulties, the supply chain issues, and how it was impacting our community. So this is the first time we ran it. And it really was interesting to see, you know, the move there. And storage particularly I found interesting because it correlated with a huge jump that we saw on one of our vendor names, which was Rubrik, had the highest net score that it's ever had. So clearly we're seeing some correlation with some of these names that are there, you know, really well positioned to take storage, to take data into the cloud. So again, you didn't need another reason to, you know, hasten this digital transformation, but here we are, we have it yet again, and I don't see it slowing down anytime soon. >> You know, that's a really good point. I mean, it's not necessarily bad news for the... I mean, obviously you wish that it had no change, would be great, but things, you know, always going to change. So we'll talk about this a little bit later when we get into the Supercloud conversation, but this is an opportunity for people who embrace the cloud. So we'll come back to that. And I want to hang on cloud a bit and share some recent projections that we've made. The next prediction is the big four cloud players are going to surpass 167 billion, an IaaS and PaaS revenue in 2022. We track this. Observers of this program know that we try to create an apples to apples comparison between AWS, Azure, GCP and Alibaba in IaaS and PaaS. So we're calling for 38% revenue growth in 2022, which is astounding for such a massive market. You know, AWS is probably not going to hit a hundred billion dollar run rate, but they're going to be close this year. And we're going to get there by 2023, you know they're going to surpass that. Azure continues to close the gap. Now they're about two thirds of the size of AWS and Google, we think is going to surpass Alibaba and take the number three spot. Erik, anything you'd like to add here? >> Yeah, first of all, just on a sector level, we saw our sector, new survey net score on cloud jumped another 10%. It was already really high at 48. Went up to 53. This train is not slowing down anytime soon. And we even added an edge compute type of player, like CloudFlare into our cloud bucket this year. And it debuted with a net score of almost 60. So this is really an area that's expanding, not just the big three, but everywhere. We even saw Oracle and IBM jump up. So even they're having success, taking some of their on-prem customers and then selling them to their cloud services. This is a massive opportunity and it's not changing anytime soon, it's going to continue. >> And I think the operative word there is opportunity. So, you know, the next prediction is something that we've been having fun with and that's this Supercloud becomes a thing. Now, the reason I say we've been having fun is we put this concept of Supercloud out and it's become a bit of a controversy. First, you know, what the heck's the Supercloud right? It's sort of a buzz-wordy term, but there really is, we believe, a thing here. We think there needs to be a rethinking or at least an evolution of the term multi-cloud. And what we mean is that in our view, you know, multicloud from a vendor perspective was really cloud compatibility. It wasn't marketed that way, but that's what it was. Either a vendor would containerize its legacy stack, shove it into the cloud, or a company, you know, they'd do the work, they'd build a cloud native service on one of the big clouds and they did do it for AWS, and then Azure, and then Google. But there really wasn't much, if any, leverage across clouds. Now from a buyer perspective, we've always said multicloud was a symptom of multi-vendor, meaning I got different workloads, running in different clouds, or I bought a company and they run on Azure, and I do a lot of work on AWS, but generally it wasn't necessarily a prescribed strategy to build value on top of hyperscale infrastructure. There certainly was somewhat of a, you know, reducing lock-in and hedging the risk. But we're talking about something more here. We're talking about building value on top of the hyperscale gift of hundreds of billions of dollars in CapEx. So in addition, we're not just talking about transforming IT, which is what the last 10 years of cloud have been like. And, you know, doing work in the cloud because it's cheaper or simpler or more agile, all of those things. So that's beginning to change. And this chart shows some of the technology vendors that are leaning toward this Supercloud vision, in our view, building on top of the hyperscalers that are highlighted in red. Now, Jerry Chan at Greylock, they wrote a piece called Castles in the Cloud. It got our thinking going, and he and the team at Greylock, they're building out a database of all the cloud services and all the sub-markets in cloud. And that got us thinking that there's a higher level of abstraction coalescing in the market, where there's tight integration of services across clouds, but the underlying complexity is hidden, and there's an identical experience across clouds, and even, in my dreams, on-prem for some platforms, so what's new or new-ish and evolving are things like location independence, you've got to include the edge on that, metadata services to optimize locality of reference and data source awareness, governance, privacy, you know, application independent and dependent, actually, recovery across clouds. So we're seeing this evolve. And in our view, the two biggest things that are new are the technology is evolving, where you're seeing services truly integrate cross-cloud. And the other big change is digital transformation, where there's this new innovation curve developing, and it's not just about making your IT better. It's about SaaS-ifying and automating your entire company workflows. So Supercloud, it's not just a vendor thing to us. It's the evolution of, you know, the, the Marc Andreessen quote, "Every company will be a SaaS company." Every company will deliver capabilities that can be consumed as cloud services. So Erik, the chart shows spending momentum on the y-axis and net score, or presence in the ETR data center, or market share on the x-axis. We've talked about snowflake as the poster child for this concept where the vision is you're in their cloud and sharing data in that safe place. Maybe you could make some comments, you know, what do you think of this Supercloud concept and this change that we're sensing in the market? >> Well, I think you did a great job describing the concept. So maybe I'll support it a little bit on the vendor level and then kind of give examples of the ones that are doing it. You stole the lead there with Snowflake, right? There is no better example than what we've seen with what Snowflake can do. Cross-portability in the cloud, the ability to be able to be, you know, completely agnostic, but then build those services on top. They're better than anything they could offer. And it's not just there. I mean, you mentioned edge compute, that's a whole nother layer where this is coming in. And CloudFlare, the momentum there is out of control. I mean, this is a company that started off just doing CDN and trying to compete with Okta Mite. And now they're giving you a full soup to nuts with security and actual edge compute layer, but it's a fantastic company. What they're doing, it's another great example of what you're seeing here. I'm going to call out HashiCorp as well. They're more of an infrastructure services, a little bit more of an open-source freemium model, but what they're doing as well is completely cloud agnostic. It's dynamic. It doesn't care if you're in a container, it doesn't matter where you are. They recently IPO'd and they're down 25%, but their data looks so good across both of our emerging technology and TISA survey. It's certainly another name that's playing on this. And another one that we mentioned as well is Rubrik. If you need storage, compute, and in the cloud layer and you need to be agnostic to it, they're another one that's really playing in this space. So I think it's a great concept you're bringing up. I think it's one that's here to stay and there's certainly a lot of vendors that fit into what you're describing. >> Excellent. Thank you. All right, let's shift to data. The next prediction, it might be a little tough to measure. Before I said we're trying to be a little black and white here, but it relates to Data Mesh, which is, the ideas behind that term were created by Zhamak Dehghani of ThoughtWorks. And we see Data Mesh is really gaining momentum in 2022, but it's largely going to be, we think, confined to a more narrow scope. Now, the impetus for change in data architecture in many companies really stems from the fact that their Hadoop infrastructure really didn't solve their data problems and they struggle to get more value out of their data investments. Data Mesh prescribes a shift to a decentralized architecture in domain ownership of data and a shift to data product thinking, beyond data for analytics, but data products and services that can be monetized. Now this a very powerful in our view, but they're difficult for organizations to get their heads around and further decentralization creates the need for a self-service platform and federated data governance that can be automated. And not a lot of standards around this. So it's going to take some time. At our power panel a couple of weeks ago on data management, Tony Baer predicted a backlash on Data Mesh. And I don't think it's going to be so much of a backlash, but rather the adoption will be more limited. Most implementations we think are going to use a starting point of AWS and they'll enable domains to access and control their own data lakes. And while that is a very small slice of the Data Mesh vision, I think it's going to be a starting point. And the last thing I'll say is, this is going to take a decade to evolve, but I think it's the right direction. And whether it's a data lake or a data warehouse or a data hub or an S3 bucket, these are really, the concept is, they'll eventually just become nodes on the data mesh that are discoverable and access is governed. And so the idea is that the stranglehold that the data pipeline and process and hyper-specialized roles that they have on data agility is going to evolve. And decentralized architectures and the democratization of data will eventually become a norm for a lot of different use cases. And Erik, I wonder if you'd add anything to this. >> Yeah. There's a lot to add there. The first thing that jumped out to me was that that mention of the word backlash you said, and you said it's not really a backlash, but what it could be is these are new words trying to solve an old problem. And I do think sometimes the industry will notice that right away and maybe that'll be a little pushback. And the problems are what you already mentioned, right? We're trying to get to an area where we can have more assets in our data site, more deliverable, and more usable and relevant to the business. And you mentioned that as self-service with governance laid on top. And that's really what we're trying to get to. Now, there's a lot of ways you can get there. Data fabric is really the technical aspect and data mesh is really more about the people, the process, and the governance, but the two of those need to meet, in order to make that happen. And as far as tools, you know, there's even cataloging names like Informatica that play in this, right? Istio plays in this, Snowflake plays in this. So there's a lot of different tools that will support it. But I think you're right in calling out AWS, right? They have AWS Lake, they have AWS Glue. They have so much that's trying to drive this. But I think the really important thing to keep here is what you said. It's going to be a decade long journey. And by the way, we're on the shoulders of giants a decade ago that have even gotten us to this point to talk about these new words because this has been an ongoing type of issue, but ultimately, no matter which vendors you use, this is going to come down to your data governance plan and the data literacy in your business. This is really about workflows and people as much as it is tools. So, you know, the new term of data mesh is wonderful, but you still have to have the people and the governance and the processes in place to get there. >> Great, thank you for that, Erik. Some great points. All right, for the next prediction, we're going to shine the spotlight on two of our favorite topics, Snowflake and Databricks, and the prediction here is that, of course, Databricks is going to IPO this year, as expected. Everybody sort of expects that. And while, but the prediction really is, well, while these two companies are facing off already in the market, they're also going to compete with each other for M&A, especially as Databricks, you know, after the IPO, you're going to have, you know, more prominence and a war chest. So first, these companies, they're both looking pretty good, the same XY graph with spending velocity and presence and market share on the horizontal axis. And both Snowflake and Databricks are well above that magic 40% red dotted line, the elevated line, to us. And for context, we've included a few other firms. So you can see kind of what a good position these two companies are really in, especially, I mean, Snowflake, wow, it just keeps moving to the right on this horizontal picture, but maintaining the next net score in the Y axis. Amazing. So, but here's the thing, Databricks is using the term Lakehouse implying that it has the best of data lakes and data warehouses. And Snowflake has the vision of the data cloud and data sharing. And Snowflake, they've nailed analytics, and now they're moving into data science in the domain of Databricks. Databricks, on the other hand, has nailed data science and is moving into the domain of Snowflake, in the data warehouse and analytics space. But to really make this seamless, there has to be a semantic layer between these two worlds and they're either going to build it or buy it or both. And there are other areas like data clean rooms and privacy and data prep and governance and machine learning tooling and AI, all that stuff. So the prediction is they'll not only compete in the market, but they'll step up and in their competition for M&A, especially after the Databricks IPO. We've listed some target names here, like Atscale, you know, Iguazio, Infosum, Habu, Immuta, and I'm sure there are many, many others. Erik, you care to comment? >> Yeah. I remember a year ago when we were talking Snowflake when they first came out and you, and I said, "I'm shocked if they don't use this war chest of money" "and start going after more" "because we know Slootman, we have so much respect for him." "We've seen his playbook." And I'm actually a little bit surprised that here we are, at 12 months later, and he hasn't spent that money yet. So I think this prediction's just spot on. To talk a little bit about the data side, Snowflake is in rarefied air. It's all by itself. It is the number one net score in our entire TISA universe. It is absolutely incredible. There's almost no negative intentions. Global 2000 organizations are increasing their spend on it. We maintain our positive outlook. It's really just, you know, stands alone. Databricks, however, also has one of the highest overall net sentiments in the entire universe, not just its area. And this is the first time we're coming up positive on this name as well. It looks like it's not slowing down. Really interesting comment you made though that we normally hear from our end-user commentary in our panels and our interviews. Databricks is really more used for the data science side. The MLAI is where it's best positioned in our survey. So it might still have some catching up to do to really have that caliber of usability that you know Snowflake is seeing right now. That's snowflake having its own marketplace. There's just a lot more to Snowflake right now than there is Databricks. But I do think you're right. These two massive vendors are sort of heading towards a collision course, and it'll be very interesting to see how they deploy their cash. I think Snowflake, with their incredible management and leadership, probably will make the first move. >> Well, I think you're right on that. And by the way, I'll just add, you know, Databricks has basically said, hey, it's going to be easier for us to come from data lakes into data warehouse. I'm not sure I buy that. I think, again, that semantic layer is a missing ingredient. So it's going to be really interesting to see how this plays out. And to your point, you know, Snowflake's got the war chest, they got the momentum, they've got the public presence now since November, 2020. And so, you know, they're probably going to start making some aggressive moves. Anyway, next prediction is something, Erik, that you and I have talked about many, many times, and that is observability. I know it's one of your favorite topics. And we see this world screaming for more consolidation it's going all in on cloud native. These legacy stacks, they're fighting to stay relevant, but the direction is pretty clear. And the same XY graph lays out the players in the field, with some of the new entrants that we've also highlighted, like Observe and Honeycomb and ChaosSearch that we've talked about. Erik, we put a big red target around Splunk because everyone wants their gold. So please give us your thoughts. >> Oh man, I feel like I've been saying negative things about Splunk for too long. I've got a bad rap on this name. The Splunk shareholders come after me all the time. Listen, it really comes down to this. They're a fantastic company that was designed to do logging and monitoring and had some great tool sets around what you could do with it. But they were designed for the data center. They were designed for prem. The world we're in now is so dynamic. Everything I hear from our end user community is that all net new workloads will be going to cloud native players. It's that simple. So Splunk has entrenched. It's going to continue doing what it's doing and it does it really, really well. But if you're doing something new, the new workloads are going to be in a dynamic environment and that's going to go to the cloud native players. And in our data, it is extremely clear that that means Datadog and Elastic. They are by far number one and two in net score, increase rates, adoption rates. It's not even close. Even New Relic actually is starting to, you know, entrench itself really well. We saw New Relic's adoption's going up, which is super important because they went to that freemium model, you know, to try to get their little bit of an entrenched customer base and that's working as well. And then you made a great list here, of all the new entrants, but it goes beyond this. There's so many more. In our emerging technology survey, we're seeing Century, Catchpoint, Securonix, Lucid Works. There are so many options in this space. And let's not forget, the biggest data that we're seeing is with Grafana. And Grafana labs as yet to turn on their enterprise. Elastic did it, why can't Grafana labs do it? They have an enterprise stack. So when you look at how crowded this space is, there has to be consolidation. I recently hosted a panel and every single guy on that panel said, "Please give me a consolidation." Because they're the end users trying to actually deploy these and it's getting a little bit confusing. >> Great. Thank you for that. Okay. Last prediction. Erik, might be a little out of your wheelhouse, but you know, you might have some thoughts on it. And that's a hybrid events become the new digital model and a new category in 2022. You got these pure play digital or virtual events. They're going to take a back seat to in-person hybrids. The virtual experience will eventually give way to metaverse experiences and that's going to take some time, but the physical hybrid is going to drive it. And metaverse is ultimately going to define the virtual experience because the virtual experience today is not great. Nobody likes virtual. And hybrid is going to become the business model. Today's pure virtual experience has to evolve, you know, theCUBE first delivered hybrid mid last decade, but nobody really wanted it. We did Mobile World Congress last summer in Barcelona in an amazing hybrid model, which we're showing in some of the pictures here. Alex, if you don't mind bringing that back up. And every physical event that we're we're doing now has a hybrid and virtual component, including the pre-records. You can see in our studios, you see that the green screen. I don't know. Erik, what do you think about, you know, the Zoom fatigue and all this. I know you host regular events with your round tables, but what are your thoughts? >> Well, first of all, I think you and your company here have just done an amazing job on this. So that's really your expertise. I spent 20 years of my career hosting intimate wall street idea dinners. So I'm better at navigating a wine list than I am navigating a conference floor. But I will say that, you know, the trend just goes along with what we saw. If 35% are going to be fully remote. If 70% are going to be hybrid, then our events are going to be as well. I used to host round table dinners on, you know, one or two nights a week. Now those have gone virtual. They're now panels. They're now one-on-one interviews. You know, we do chats. We do submitted questions. We do what we can, but there's no reason that this is going to change anytime soon. I think you're spot on here. >> Yeah. Great. All right. So there you have it, Erik and I, Listen, we always love the feedback. Love to know what you think. Thank you, Erik, for your partnership, your collaboration, and love doing these predictions with you. >> Yeah. I always enjoy them too. And I'm actually happy. Last year you made us do a baker's dozen, so thanks for keeping it to 10 this year. >> (laughs) We've got a lot to say. I know, you know, we cut out. We didn't do much on crypto. We didn't really talk about SaaS. I mean, I got some thoughts there. We didn't really do much on containers and AI. >> You want to keep going? I've got another 10 for you. >> RPA...All right, we'll have you back and then let's do that. All right. All right. Don't forget, these episodes are all available as podcasts, wherever you listen, all you can do is search Breaking Analysis podcast. Check out ETR's website at etr.plus, they've got a new website out. It's the best data in the industry, and we publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can always reach out on email, David.Vellante@siliconangle.com I'm @DVellante on Twitter. Comment on our LinkedIn posts. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well. And we'll see you next time. (mellow music)

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante data mesh is a new way of thinking about how to use data to create organizational value leading edge practitioners are beginning to implement data mesh in earnest and importantly data mesh is not a single tool or a rigid reference architecture if you will rather it's an architectural and organizational model that's really designed to address the shortcomings of decades of data challenges and failures many of which we've talked about on the cube as important by the way it's a new way to think about how to leverage data at scale across an organization and across ecosystems data mesh in our view will become the defining paradigm for the next generation of data excellence hello and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we welcome the founder and creator of data mesh author thought leader technologist jamaak dagani shamak thank you for joining us today good to see you hi dave it's great to be here all right real quick let's talk about what we're going to cover i'll introduce or reintroduce you to jamaac she joined us earlier this year in our cube on cloud program she's the director of emerging tech at dot works north america and a thought leader practitioner software engineer architect and a passionate advocate for decentralized technology solutions and and data architectures and jamaa since we last had you on as a guest which was less than a year ago i think you've written two books in your spare time one on data mesh and another called software architecture the hard parts both published by o'reilly so how are you you've been busy i've been busy yes um good it's been a great year it's been a busy year i'm looking forward to the end of the year and the end of these two books but it's great to be back and um speaking with you well you got to be pleased with the the momentum that data mesh has and let's just jump back to the agenda for a bit and get that out of the way we're going to set the stage by sharing some etr data our partner our data partner on the spending profile and some of the key data sectors and then we're going to review the four key principles of data mesh just it's always worthwhile to sort of set that framework we'll talk a little bit about some of the dependencies and the data flows and we're really going to dig today into principle number three and a bit around the self-service data platforms and to that end we're going to talk about some of the learnings that shamak has captured since she embarked on the datamess journey with her colleagues and her clients and we specifically want to talk about some of the successful models for building the data mesh experience and then we're going to hit on some practical advice and we'll wrap with some thought exercises maybe a little tongue-in-cheek some of the community questions that we get so the first thing i want to do we'll just get this out of the way is introduce the spending climate we use this xy chart to do this we do this all the time it shows the spending profiles and the etr data set for some of the more data related sectors of the ecr etr taxonomy they they dropped their october data last friday so i'm using the july survey here we'll get into the october survey in future weeks but about 1500 respondents i don't see a dramatic change coming in the october survey but the the y-axis is net score or spending momentum the horizontal axis is market share or presence in the data set and that red line that 40 percent anything over that we consider elevated so for the past eight quarters or so we've seen machine learning slash ai rpa containers and cloud is the four areas where cios and technology buyers have shown the highest net scores and as we've said what's so impressive for cloud is it's both pervasive and it shows high velocity from a spending standpoint and we plotted the three other data related areas database edw analytics bi and big data and storage the first two well under the red line are still elevated the storage market continues to kind of plot along and we've we've plotted the outsourced it just to balance it out for context that's an area that's not so hot right now so i just want to point out that these areas ai automation containers and cloud they're all relevant to data and they're fundamental building blocks of data architectures as are the two that are directly related to data database and analytics and of course storage so it just gives you a picture of the spending sector so i wanted to share this slide jamark uh that that we presented in that you presented in your webinar i love this it's a taxonomy put together by matt turk who's a vc and he called this the the mad landscape machine learning and ai and data and jamock the key point here is there's no lack of tooling you've you've made the the data mesh concept sort of tools agnostic it's not like we need more tools to succeed in data mesh right absolutely great i think we have plenty of tools i think what's missing is a meta architecture that defines the landscape in a way that it's in step with organizational growth and then defines that meta architecture in a way that these tools can actually interoperable and to operate and integrate really well like the the clients right now have a lot of challenges in terms of picking the right tool regardless of the technology they go down the path either they have to go in and big you know bite into a big data solution and then try to fit the other integrated solutions around it or as you see go to that menu of large list of applications and spend a lot of time trying to kind of integrate and stitch this tooling together so i'm hoping that data mesh creates that kind of meta architecture for tools to interoperate and plug in and i think our conversation today around self-subjective platform um hopefully eliminate that yeah we'll definitely circle back because that's one of the questions we get all the time from the community okay let's review the four main principles of data mesh for those who might not be familiar with it and those who are it's worth reviewing jamar allow me to introduce them and then we can discuss a bit so a big frustration i hear constantly from practitioners is that the data teams don't have domain context the data team is separated from the lines of business and as a result they have to constantly context switch and as such there's a lack of alignment so principle number one is focused on putting end-to-end data ownership in the hands of the domain or what i would call the business lines the second principle is data as a product which does cause people's brains to hurt sometimes but it's a key component and if you start sort of thinking about it you'll and talking to people who have done it it actually makes a lot of sense and this leads to principle number three which is a self-serve data infrastructure which we're going to drill into quite a bit today and then the question we always get is when we introduce data meshes how to enforce governance in a federated model so let me bring up a more detailed slide jamar with the dependencies and ask you to comment please sure but as you said the the really the root cause we're trying to address is the siloing of the data external to where the action happens where the data gets produced where the data needs to be shared when the data gets used right in the context of the business so it's about the the really the root cause of the centralization gets addressed by distribution of the accountability end to end back to the domains and these domains this distribution of accountability technical accountability to the domains have already happened in the last you know decade or so we saw the transition from you know one general i.t addressing all of the needs of the organization to technology groups within the itu or even outside of the iit aligning themselves to build applications and services that the different business units need so what data mesh does it just extends that model and say okay we're aligning business with the tech and data now right so both application of the data in ml or inside generation in the domains related to the domain's needs as well as sharing the data that the domains are generating with the rest of the organization but the moment you do that then you have to solve other problems that may arise and that you know gives birth to the second principle which is about um data as a product as a way of preventing data siloing happening within the domain so changing the focus of the domains that are now producing data from i'm just going to create that data i collect for myself and that satisfy my needs to in fact the responsibility of domain is to share the data as a product with all of the you know wonderful characteristics that a product has and i think that leads to really interesting architectural and technical implications of what actually constitutes state has a product and we can have a separate conversation but once you do that then that's the point in the conversation that cio says well how do i even manage the cost of operation if i decentralize you know building and sharing data to my technical teams to my application teams do i need to go and hire another hundred data engineers and i think that's the role of a self-serve data platform in a way that it enables and empowers generalist technologies that we already have in the technical domains the the majority population of our developers these days right so the data platform attempts to mobilize the generalist technologies to become data producers to become data consumers and really rethink what tools these people need um and the last last principle so data platform is really to giving autonomy to domain teams and empowering them and reducing the cost of ownership of the data products and finally as you mentioned the question around how do i still assure that these different data products are interoperable are secure you know respecting privacy now in a decentralized fashion right when we are respecting the sovereignty or the domain ownership of um each domain and that leads to uh this idea of both from operational model um you know applying some sort of a federation where the domain owners are accountable for interoperability of their data product they have incentives that are aligned with global harmony of the data mesh as well as from the technology perspective thinking about this data is a product with a new lens with a lens that all of those policies that need to be respected by these data products such as privacy such as confidentiality can we encode these policies as computational executable units and encode them in every data product so that um we get automation we get governance through automation so that's uh those that's the relationship the complex relationship between the four principles yeah thank you for that i mean it's just a couple of points there's so many important points in there but the idea of the silos and the data as a product sort of breaking down those cells because if you have a product and you want to sell more of it you make it discoverable and you know as a p l manager you put it out there you want to share it as opposed to hide it and then you know this idea of managing the cost you know number three where people say well centralize and and you can be more efficient but that but that essentially was the the failure in your other point related point is generalist versus specialist that's kind of one of the failures of hadoop was you had these hyper specialist roles emerge and and so you couldn't scale and so let's talk about the goals of data mesh for a moment you've said that the objective is to extend exchange you call it a new unit of value between data producers and data consumers and that unit of value is a data product and you've stated that a goal is to lower the cognitive load on our brains i love this and simplify the way in which data are presented to both producers and consumers and doing so in a self-serve manner that eliminates the tapping on the shoulders or emails or raising tickets so how you know i'm trying to understand how data should be used etc so please explain why this is so important and how you've seen organizations reduce the friction across the data flows and the interconnectedness of things like data products across the company yeah i mean this is important um as you mentioned you know initially when this whole idea of a data-driven innovation came to exist and we needed all sorts of you know technology stacks we we centralized um creation of the data and usage of the data and that's okay when you first get started with where the expertise and knowledge is not yet diffused and it's only you know the privilege of a very few people in the organization but as we move to a data driven um you know innovation cycle in the organization as we learn how data can unlock new new programs new models of experience new products then it's really really important as you mentioned to get the consumers and producers talk to each other directly without a broker in the middle because even though that having that centralized broker could be a cost-effective model but if you if we include uh the cost of missed opportunity for something that we could have innovated well we missed that opportunity because of months of looking for the right data then that cost parented the cost benefit parameters and formula changes so um so to to have that innovation um really embedded data-driven innovation embedded into every domain every team we need to enable a model where the producer can directly peer-to-peer discover the data uh use it understand it and use it so the litmus test for that would be going from you know a hypothesis that you know as a data scientist i think there is a pattern and there is an insight in um you know in in the customer behavior that if i have access to all of the different informations about the customer all of the different touch points i might be able to discover that pattern and personalize the experience of my customer the liquid stuff is going from that hypothesis to finding all of the different sources be able to understanding and be able to connect them um and then turn them them into you know training of my machine learning and and the rest is i guess known as an intelligent product got it thank you so i i you know a lot of what we do here in breaking it house is we try to curate and then point people to new resources so we will have some additional resources because this this is not superficial uh what you and your colleagues in the community are creating but but so i do want to you know curate some of the other material that you had so if i bring up this next chart the left-hand side is a curated description both sides of your observations of most of the monolithic data platforms they're optimized for control they serve a centralized team that has hyper-specialized roles as we talked about the operational stacks are running running enterprise software they're on kubernetes and the microservices are isolated from let's say the spark clusters you know which are managing the analytical data etc whereas the data mesh proposes much greater autonomy and the management of code and data pipelines and policy as independent entities versus a single unit and you've made this the point that we have to enable generalists to borrow from so many other examples in the in the industry so it's an architecture based on decentralized thinking that can really be applied to any domain really domain agnostic in a way yes and i think if i pick one key point from that diagram is really um or that comparison is the um the the the data platforms or the the platform capabilities need to present a continuous experience from an application developer building an application that generates some data let's say i have an e-commerce application that generates some data to the data product that now presents and shares that data as as temporal immutable facts that can be used for analytics to the data scientist that uses that data to personalize the experience to the deployment of that ml model now back to that e-commerce application so if we really look at this continuous journey um the walls between these separate platforms that we have built needs to come down the platforms underneath that generate you know that support the operational systems versus supported data platforms versus supporting the ml models they need to kind of play really nicely together because as a user i'll probably fall off the cliff every time i go through these stages of this value stream um so then the interoperability of our data solutions and operational solutions need to increase drastically because so far we've got away with running operational systems an application on one end of the organization running and data analytics in another and build a spaghetti pipeline to you know connect them together neither of the ends are happy i hear from data scientists you know data analyst pointing finger at the application developer saying you're not developing your database the right way and application point dipping you're saying my database is for running my application it wasn't designed for sharing analytical data so so we've got to really what data mesh as a mesh tries to do is bring these two world together closer because and then the platform itself has to come closer and turn into a continuous set of you know services and capabilities as opposed to this disjointed big you know isolated stacks very powerful observations there so we want to dig a little bit deeper into the platform uh jamar can have you explain your thinking here because it's everybody always goes to the platform what do i do with the infrastructure what do i do so you've stressed the importance of interfaces the entries to and the exits from the platform and you've said you use a particular parlance to describe it and and this chart kind of shows what you call the planes not layers the planes of the platform it's complicated with a lot of connection points so please explain these planes and how they fit together sure i mean there was a really good point that you started with that um when we think about capabilities or that enables build of application builds of our data products build their analytical solutions usually we jump too quickly to the deep end of the actual implementation of these technologies right do i need to go buy a data catalog or do i need you know some sort of a warehouse storage and what i'm trying to kind of elevate us up and out is to to to force us to think about interfaces and apis the experiences that the platform needs to provide to run this secure safe trustworthy you know performance mesh of data products and if you focus on then the interfaces the implementation underneath can swap out right you can you can swap one for the other over time so that's the purpose of like having those lollipops and focusing and emphasizing okay what is the interface that provides a certain capability like the storage like the data product life cycle management and so on the purpose of the planes the mesh experience playing data product expense utility plan is really giving us a language to classify different set of interfaces and capabilities that play nicely together to provide that cohesive journey of a data product developer data consumer so then the three planes are really around okay at the bottom layer we have a lot of utilities we have that mad mac turks you know kind of mad data tooling chart so we have a lot of utilities right now they they manage workflow management you know they they do um data processing you've got your spark link you've got your storage you've got your lake storage you've got your um time series of storage you've got a lot of tooling at that level but the layer that we kind of need to imagine and build today we don't buy yet as as long as i know is this linger that allows us to uh exchange that um unit of value right to build and manage these data products so so the language and the apis and interface of this product data product experience plan is not oh i need this storage or i need that you know workflow processing is that i have a data product it needs to deliver certain types of data so i need to be able to model my data it needs to as part of this data product i need to write some processing code that keeps this data constantly alive because it's receiving you know upstream let's say user interactions with a website and generating the profile of my user so i need to be able to to write that i need to serve the data i need to keep the data alive and i need to provide a set of slos and guarantees for my data so that good documentation so that some you know someone who comes to data product knows but what's the cadence of refresh what's the retention of the data and a lot of other slos that i need to provide and finally i need to be able to enforce and guarantee certain policies in terms of access control privacy encryption and so on so as a data product developer i just work with this unit a complete autonomous self-contained unit um and the platform should give me ways of provisioning this unit and testing this unit and so on that's why kind of i emphasize on the experience and of course we're not dealing with one or two data product we're dealing with a mesh of data products so at the kind of mesh level experience we need a set of capabilities and interfaces to be able to search the mesh for the right data to be able to explore the knowledge graph that emerges from this interconnection of data products need to be able to observe the mesh for any anomalies did we create one of these giant master data products that all the data goes into and all the data comes out of how we found ourselves the bottlenecks to be able to kind of do those level machine level capabilities we need to have a certain level of apis and interfaces and once we decide and decide what constitutes that to satisfy this mesh experience then we can step back and say okay now what sort of a tool do i need to build or buy to satisfy them and that's that is not what the data community or data part of our organizations used to i think traditionally we're very comfortable with buying a tool and then changing the way we work to serve to serve the tool and this is slightly inverse to that model that we might be comfortable with right and pragmatists will will to tell you people who've implemented data match they'll tell you they spent a lot of time on figuring out data as a product and the definitions there the organizational the getting getting domain experts to actually own the data and and that's and and they will tell you look the technology will come and go and so to your point if you have those lollipops and those interfaces you'll be able to evolve because we know one thing's for sure in this business technology is going to change um so you you had some practical advice um and i wanted to discuss that for those that are thinking about data mesh i scraped this slide from your presentation that you made and and by the way we'll put links in there your colleague emily who i believe is a data scientist had some really great points there as well that that practitioners should dig into but you made a couple of points that i'd like you to summarize and to me that you know the big takeaway was it's not a one and done this is not a 60-day project it's a it's a journey and i know that's kind of cliche but it's so very true here yes um this was a few starting points for um people who are embarking on building or buying the platform that enables the people enables the mesh creation so it was it was a bit of a focus on kind of the platform angle and i think the first one is what we just discussed you know instead of thinking about mechanisms that you're building think about the experiences that you're enabling uh identify who are the people like what are the what is the persona of data scientists i mean data scientist has a wide range of personas or did a product developer the same what is the persona i need to develop today or enable empower today what skill sets do they have and and so think about experience as mechanisms i think we are at this really magical point i mean how many times in our lifetime we come across a complete blanks you know kind of white space to a degree to innovate so so let's take that opportunity and use a bit of a creativity while being pragmatic of course we need solutions today or yesterday but but still think about the experiences not not mechanisms that you need to buy so that was kind of the first step and and the nice thing about that is that there is an evolutionary there is an iterative path to maturity of your data mesh i mean if you start with thinking about okay which are the initial use cases i need to enable what are the data products that those use cases depend on that we need to unlock and what is the persona of my or general skill set of my data product developer what are the interfaces i need to enable you can start with the simplest possible platform for your first two use cases and then think about okay the next set of data you know data developers they have a different set of needs maybe today i just enable the sql-like querying of the data tomorrow i enable the data scientists file based access of the data the day after i enable the streaming aspect so so have this evolutionary kind of path ahead of you and don't think that you have to start with building out everything i mean one of the things we've done is taking this harvesting approach that we work collaboratively with those technical cross-functional domains that are building the data products and see how they are using those utilities and harvesting what they are building as the solutions for themselves back into the back into the platform but at the end of the day we have to think about mobilization of the large you know largest population of technologies we have we'd have to think about diffusing the technology and making it available and accessible by the generous technologies that you know and we've come a long way like we've we've gone through these sort of paradigm shifts in terms of mobile development in terms of functional programming in terms of cloud operation it's not that we are we're struggling with learning something new but we have to learn something that works nicely with the rest of the tooling that we have in our you know toolbox right now so so again put that generalist as the uh as one of your center personas not the only person of course we will have specialists of course we will always have data scientists specialists but any problem that can be solved as a general kind of engineering problem and i think there's a lot of aspects of data michigan that can be just a simple engineering problem um let's just approach it that way and then create the tooling um to empower those journalists great thank you so listen i've i've been around a long time and so as an analyst i've seen many waves and we we often say language matters um and so i mean i've seen it with the mainframe language it was different than the pc language it's different than internet different than cloud different than big data et cetera et cetera and so we have to evolve our language and so i was going to throw a couple things out here i often say data is not the new oil because because data doesn't live by the laws of scarcity we're not running out of data but i get the analogy it's powerful it powered the industrial economy but it's it's it's bigger than that what do you what do you feel what do you think when you hear the data is the new oil yeah i don't respond to those data as the gold or oil or whatever scarce resource because as you said it evokes a very different emotion it doesn't evoke the emotion of i want to use this i want to utilize it feels like i need to kind of hide it and collect it and keep it to myself and not share it with anyone it doesn't evoke that emotion of sharing i really do think that data and i with it with a little asterisk and i think the definition of data changes and that's why i keep using the language of data product or data quantum data becomes the um the most important essential element of existence of uh computation what do i mean by that i mean that you know a lot of applications that we have written so far are based on logic imperative logic if this happens do that and else do the other and we're moving to a world where those applications generating data that we then look at and and the data that's generated becomes the source the patterns that we can exploit to build our applications as in you know um curate the weekly playlist for dave every monday based on what he has listened to and the you know other people has listened to based on his you know profile so so we're moving to the world that is not so much about applications using the data necessarily to run their businesses that data is really truly is the foundational building block for the applications of the future and then i think in that we need to rethink the definition of the data and maybe that's for a different conversation but that's that's i really think we have to converge the the processing that the data together the substance substance and the processing together to have a unit that is uh composable reusable trustworthy and that's that's the idea behind the kind of data product as an atomic unit of um what we build from future solutions got it now something else that that i heard you say or read that really struck me because it's another sort of often stated phrase which is data is you know our most valuable asset and and you push back a little bit on that um when you hear people call data and asset people people said often have said they think data should be or will eventually be listed as an asset on the balance sheet and i i in hearing what you said i thought about that i said well you know maybe data as a product that's an income statement thing that's generating revenue or it's cutting costs it's not necessarily because i don't share my my assets with people i don't make them discoverable add some color to this discussion i think so i think it's it's actually interesting you mentioned that because i read the new policy in china that cfos actually have a line item around the data that they capture we don't have to go to the political conversation around authoritarian of um collecting data and the power that that creates and the society that leads to but that aside that big conversation little conversation aside i think you're right i mean the data as an asset generates a different behavior it's um it creates different performance metrics that we would measure i mean before conversation around data mesh came to you know kind of exist we were measuring the success of our data teams by the terabytes of data they were collecting by the thousands of tables that they had you know stamped as golden data none of that leads to necessarily there's no direct line i can see between that and actually the value that data generated but if we invert that so that's why i think it's rather harmful because it leads to the wrong measures metrics to measure for success so if you invert that to a bit of a product thinking or something that you share to delight the experience of users your measures are very different your measures are the the happiness of the user they decrease lead time for them to actually use and get value out of it they're um you know the growth of the population of the users so it evokes a very different uh kind of behavior and success metrics i do say if if i may that i probably come back and regret the choice of word around product one day because of the monetization aspect of it but maybe there is a better word to use but but that's the best i think we can use at this point in time why do you say that jamar because it's too directly related to monetization that has a negative connotation or it might might not apply in things like healthcare or you know i think because if we want to take your shortcuts and i remember this conversation years back that people think that the reason to you know kind of collect data or have data so that we can sell it you know it's just the monetization of the data and we have this idea of the data market places and so on and i think that is actually the least valuable um you know outcome that we can get from thinking about data as a product that direct cell an exchange of data as a monetary you know exchange of value so so i think that might redirect our attention to something that really matters which is um enabling using data for generating ultimately value for people for the customers for the organizations for the partners as opposed to thinking about it as a unit of exchange for for money i love data as a product i think you were your instinct was was right on and i think i'm glad you brought that up because because i think people misunderstood you know in the last decade data as selling data directly but you really what you're talking about is using data as a you know ingredient to actually build a product that has value and value either generate revenue cut costs or help with a mission like it could be saving lives but in some way for a commercial company it's about the bottom line and that's just the way it is so i i love data as a product i think it's going to stick so one of the other things that struck me in one of your webinars was one of the q a one of the questions was can i finally get rid of my data warehouse so i want to talk about the data warehouse the data lake jpmc used that term the data lake which some people don't like i know john furrier my business partner doesn't like that term but the data hub and one of the things i've learned from sort of observing your work is that whether it's a data lake a data warehouse data hub data whatever it's it should be a discoverable node on the mesh it really doesn't matter the the technology what are your your thoughts on that yeah i think the the really shift is from a centralized data warehouse to data warehouse where it fits so i think if you just cross that centralized piece uh we are all in agreement that data warehousing provides you know interesting and capable interesting capabilities that are still required perhaps as a edge node of the mesh that is optimizing for certain queries let's say financial reporting and we still want to direct a fair bit of data into a node that is just for those financial reportings and it requires the precision and the um you know the speed of um operation that the warehouse technology provides so i think um definitely that technology has a place where it falls apart is when you want to have a warehouse to rule you know all of your data and model canonically model your data because um it you have to put so much energy into you know kind of try to harness this model and create this very complex the complex and fragile snowflake schemas and so on that that's all you do you spend energy against the entropy of your organization to try to get your arms around this model and the model is constantly out of step with what's happening in reality because reality the model the reality of the business is moving faster than our ability to model everything into into uh into one you know canonical representation i think that's the one we need to you know challenge not necessarily application of data warehousing on a node i want to close by coming back to the issues of standards um you've specifically envisioned data mesh to be technology agnostic as i said before and of course everyone myself included we're going to run a vendor's technology platform through a data mesh filter the reality is per the matt turc chart we showed earlier there are lots of technologies that that can be nodes within the data mesh or facilitate data sharing or governance etc but there's clearly a lack of standardization i'm sometimes skeptical that the vendor community will drive this but maybe like you know kubernetes you know google or some other internet giant is going to contribute something to open source that addresses this problem but talk a little bit more about your thoughts on standardization what kinds of standards are needed and where do you think they'll come from sure i mean the you write that the vendors are not today incentivized to create those open standards because majority of the vet not all of them but some vendors operational model is about bring your data to my platform and then bring your computation to me uh and all will be great and and that will be great for a portion of the clients and portion of environments where that complexity we're talking about doesn't exist so so we need yes other players perhaps maybe um some of the cloud providers or people that are more incentivized to open um open their platform in a way for data sharing so as a starting point i think standardization around data sharing so if you look at the spectrum right now we have um a de facto sound it's not even a standard for something like sql i mean everybody's bastardized to call and extended it with so many things that i don't even know what this standard sql is anymore but we have that for some form of a querying but beyond that i know for example folks at databricks to start to create some standards around delta sharing and sharing the data in different models so i think data sharing as a concept the same way that apis were about capability sharing so we need to have the data apis or analytical data apis and data sharing extended to go beyond simply sql or languages like that i think we need standards around computational prior policies so this is again something that is formulating in the operational world we have a few standards around how do you articulate access control how do you identify the agents who are trying to access with different authentication mechanism we need to bring some of those our ad our own you know our data specific um articulation of policies uh some something as simple as uh identity management across different technologies it's non-existent so if you want to secure your data across three different technologies there is no common way of saying who's the agent that is acting uh to act to to access the data can i authenticate and authorize them so so those are some of the very basic building blocks and then the gravy on top would be new standards around enriched kind of semantic modeling of the data so we have a common language to describe the semantic of the data in different nodes and then relationship between them we have prior work with rdf and folks that were focused on i guess linking data across the web with the um kind of the data web i guess work that we had in the past we need to revisit those and see their practicality in the enterprise con context so so data modeling a rich language for data semantic modeling and data connectivity most importantly i think those are some of the items on my wish list that's good well we'll do our part to try to keep the standards you know push that push that uh uh movement jamaica we're going to leave it there i'm so grateful to have you uh come on to the cube really appreciate your time it's just always a pleasure you're such a clear thinker so thanks again thank you dave that's it's wonderful to be here now we're going to post a number of links to some of the great work that jamark and her team and her books and so you check that out because we remember we publish each week on siliconangle.com and wikibon.com and these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen listen to just search breaking analysis podcast don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey data do keep in touch i'm at d vallante follow jamac d z h a m a k d or you can email me at david.velante at siliconangle.com comment on the linkedin post this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etrbwell and we'll see you next time you

>> From the Bellagio Hotel in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE, covering UiPath FORWARD IV, brought to you by UiPath. >> Welcome back to theCUBE, live at the Bellagio in Las Vegas, Lisa Martin, with Dave Vellante, we are with UiPath at FORWARD IV. The next topic of conversation is going to be a good one. And that's because it's automation for good. I've got two guests here joining Dave and me. James Droskoski, strategic account exec at UiPath joins us, and Brian Klochkoff, head of automation at Dentsu. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah. Happy to be here. >> We're going to, we're going to dig into automation for good, which is going to be a really feel good conversation. We're going to get into what you're doing. But Brian, I wanted you to give the audience an overview of Dentsu as an organization. Who are you? What do you guys do? >> Sure. So Dentsu is a large network of advertising agencies. We're about 45,000 people large, $10 billion plus in revenue, going across about 125 markets. So we're a large enterprise advertising media, creative CXM type business. We're really focused on helping to elevate our clients' value when it comes to the value proposition around marketing, advertising, and media. >> So you think about that as a, as a, as a, a business that maybe, you know, it's hard to understand where automation might fit in. On the other hand, it's like a lot of moving parts, a lot of arms and legs. >> Brian: Mm-hmm. So how are you applying automation to the business? >> Sure. So when we first started doing proof of concepts level approaches, we approached things in a traditional, Hey, let's go look at the shared services groups. Why are we having invoice processing delays? Things like that. And we started being a bit more prescriptive and proactive about how we were applying the limited POC budget we had to go after these problems. And we started doing some root cause analysis to understand the interaction between the back office functions and the mid-office functions. And what we uncovered was that we could actually be really good custodians of budget and enable people at the same time by solving for problems at a root cause analysis level. So what I mean by that is maybe an invoice is coming down the pipe, and it's not getting processed because it's missing critical information that could be easily added six processes upstream. So what really helped elevate the conversation that we're having around automation for good and be a catalyst for we're going to talk about a bit later is we just started connecting people from the mid-office to the back office, helping them understand, Hey, if we actually follow a process properly, put the right controls in place with RPA to generate critical data elements on those invoices, Shaler in the back office doesn't have to work the weekends because there's not a pipeline back load of invoices for him to process. So we actually connected those mid-office people with the back office people, and it really drove that human connection to drive the change management within our automation journey. And that's kind of been the crux of what we've wanted to do over the past four years, finding ways to elevate our people's potential by integrating automation and AI into their actual day-to-day work. >> Hmm. So tech for good is a theme that you hear a lot and as a, as a media company, that, that, that kind of, we're not gotcha media, you know, we more want to tell the story of tech athletes, and I think we've done a pretty good job of that over the past decade, but so it goes to tech's under fire constantly, especially big tech. We hear the Facebook hearings today and so forth, but so automation kind of early days, oh, you're going to take away my job. I think generally speaking with the fatigue of Zoom and the perpetual workday, people begin to understand that, Hey, maybe automation is a good thing. But automation for good, what, what is that, James? >> Yeah, well, it's, it's not doing technology for the sake of technology. You know? At the end of the day, when we implement solutions with our customers like Dentsu, it's about, what's the impact, what's the change, what's the benefit? And what's unique about Dentsu is because they've grown through acquisition and there are lots of different companies come together, you have to focus on the people first because there is no one process or one system that we can look and just automate that system or process. So automation for good is about focusing on the people, and how do we take the solutions and the programs and the technologies we have and make an impact so that somebody's day is better. Their, their, their job is better. The process they're doing is easier and they can focus on more of the things that make them different. You know? Specifically as we'll uncover in the conversation, you know, we looked at a program that Dentsu is doing around working with different types of people, as far as people with autism, and what was the impact we could do there? And that's uncovered a journey that we've been together for the last two years around seeing how we can make an impact with those types of folks who might not get the same types of opportunities as everybody else. >> Brian, talk about the, the catalyst for that program at Dentsu a couple years ago. >> Sure. So it goes back to that foundational layer of elevating people's potential. So the testimonial that we had from our own employees around applying automation in meaningful ways to progress their day-to-day came from an employee in the mid-office who said, I didn't go $160,000 in student debt to copy paste stuff from Excel into this proprietary platform that we use for media. And that really resonated with us, as leaders in this space, and with our executive leadership, because there was a gap between what our peoples' skills were and what they were actually doing. They wanted to do Mad Men type stuff. They want it to be the Don Drapers and the Peggy Olsons of our industry. And they were losing that opportunity because we weren't tapping into the skills that they had to drive human centric solutions for our clients. So taking that concept, we looked at the partnerships that we have with our outsourcing providers and Autonomy Works, which we're going to doing a session later tomorrow with the CEO, Dave Friedman, we're going to spend a lot of time talking about how the unique skill sets of that company and those people can actually elevate them to do more tech enabled work, but also enabling our own team to focus on building solutions with the skills that we have by allowing them to use the skills that they have to do the machine learning training of models and things like that, which they really excel at from a detail oriented perspective. And that's not only a feel good story, but it's, it's great for our business because the resources on my immediate team are building product, they're building solutions, and we can rely on an excellent partner in them to help us with the maintenance overhead that we're creating through those solutions. And eventually through automation cloud, driving better outcomes through positive, negative reinforcement within machine learning. >> And there are specific examples with individuals with autism. Correct? >> Correct. That's right. >> Yeah. >> Add some color to that. What is that all about? >> Yeah. Let me tell you a little story. So when, when they first brought the conversation to me, I was terrified because I, the type of work that they were outsourcing was very repetitive rule-based. And I'm like, this is perfect for automate. This is exactly what we automate. I was terrified that the program we were going to work on together was going to eliminate the program. And so I was, you know, cautiously, you know, approached it. >> How ironic. >> Yeah. I was like, Hey, that sounds like a great idea. And I hung up. I was like, oh, how are we going to, how am I going to figure out this one? But through the conversation, and we just started, you know, brainstorming and putting our heads together. What was interesting is because of the way that automations work, as far as being very structured and repetitive, it lends itself well to workers with autism. It's exactly the way they think. And what we actually found after kind of coming up with the collaborative ideas, hey, wait a second. We were already doing these kind of botathon hackathon type programs with the Dentsu employees, teaching them the skills, how to build automations for themselves. What if we kind of modified it and adjusted it to cater to these types of individuals who learn differently, and we have to approach it differently. And we went through the program, we adjusted everything. And what was incredible to see was they thrived with the ability to learn how to work this way. They built things that made them more productive, that created more capacity. They could do more with less now, work with more customers, do more work for, for their, for their customers because they had this almost assistant that was kind of like them. And it was, it was just so rewarding. You know, we talk about, again, what's automation for good all about? It's about that personal reward. >> Brian: Yeah. >> I mean, for me, you know, we didn't sell any more licenses or it wasn't about the commercial transaction. It was about, you know, catering to the segment of the workforce that, first of all, it was very educate, enlightening to me to see how many folks are out there that are unemployed. And I got to meet these first 15 individuals that couldn't have been more amazing and more smart and more diligent and hardworking. And the numbers are something in the lines of between 50% and 90% unemployed because they just don't get the same opportunities as people without autism. It's kind of the world's set up for us. So to know that we could do this kind of program together to go have an impact in this community, was the reward in and of itself. And, you know, we've since been working together on how we continue to expand that, how do we, you know, take that forward and, and bring that everywhere. Cause that's, the end of the day, I think beyond, you know, revenue, this is the stuff that really matters, especially in an organization at Dentsu that this is important. >> Yeah. And I think building on the missed opportunity piece around 50% to 90% being unemployed, that's a missed opportunity for business as well. So those skills are so niche and they're so necessary for us to thrive within an environment that's moving as rapidly as we are. Because we just can't keep pace with the change of feature sets that are being released coupled with maintaining existing solutions that we've built. So it's in cross enabling people to really complement each other's unique skills and strengths based off of strong, true partnership. So it really became a beautiful three-way partnership between Dentsu, Autonomy Works and UiPath that we continue to evolve as UiPath makes additional releases with emerging tech that we're officially hearing about right now. So we have a ton of different ideas of how we can bring that into the fold. And what resonates with us the most is hearing different perspectives on how to apply that coming from that working group. So just a different way of thinking about things and the diversity of thought really resonates with, Hey, are we actually applying this thing the right way? Should we be thinking about this differently? Because you get a lot of yes people, you know, when we come and talk to people about how to apply this technology. And when you have somebody with a different perspective, it's able to help us figure out what our long-term strategy is actually going to look like, by taking advantage of the resources and partnerships that we already have in place. >> In terms of that strategic vision, how do you think this three-way partnership that you mentioned is going to influence that percentage of those, these individuals who are unemployed? What are you, any predictions on how much you can bring that down with automation? >> I think that depends on Dave's staffing plan. But, but the goal is to grow, right? So I mean this, this is a, a startup out of Chicago that has, you know, a healthy amount of staff. But finding ways to apply those skills in new ways with technology that's emerging, the horizon is your, is your end point. Right? And I think with the advent of low-code no-code machine learning coming into this type of a platform, it's, it's only opportunistic. There's only, there's only things ahead of us to do that. We just have to make sure that we train people properly and give them that opportunity because they're going to run with it with the right leadership and those skills. >> Yeah. What's exciting also is, is, you know, what started as an idea and a conversation that's now turned into a pilot program and a little bit of expansion of the stuff we're working on together, we've taken some of the excitement and spread it beyond that now. So we've got partners like ENY and PWC and Revature that are saying, and Special Eastern and Automatic, who helped in the initial program saying, how can we help? What can we do? How can we broaden this? And how can we go out to the larger community and make a bigger impact? So, you know, I think it's exciting. We know, we can see how fast RPA and these types of technologies are causing change. And we've got to make sure that people don't get left behind. Especially, you know, someone as this important part of a segment of a workforce. If we can equip them with these skills to be relevant to their current employers or future employers, I think it's, it's critical. You know, another like moment for me during this process was I took for granted, you know, what working actually means, right? It creates independence for us, right? So you get a job, you get paid and generate income. You have the independence now to go live on your own, provide for yourself. A lot of these individuals, I learned, are still living with their parents because they can't get employment. They don't have that independence that we take for granted. So I think, again, that's the essence of what automation for good is all about, is, is being able to go make an impact like that, to that community. And it's, you know, we talk about cultures and brands and you know, it's also great to work with an organization like Dentsu cause they get it, right? Their product is ideas. It's human capital is their, their main ingredient of what they generate value for their customers. And so be able to take that and help people is just, I think what it's all about. >> You're lucky both to be in a business that the incentives are aligned. >> Yeah. >> You're not in businesses that are designed to appropriate data and push ads in front of our face. >> Yeah. >> In a lot of big companies, it's almost like, okay, we got to do this. I don't mean to overstate this, but we have to do this because we're big and we're rich. >> Yeah. >> And so, and if we don't, we're going to get attacked. >> Yeah. Okay. And it's sort of more like a check, check box and to put somebody in charge of it. >> Yep. >> You know, oftentimes a woman or a person of color. And I shouldn't be negative on that. >> Yeah. >> That's fine. That's good to do. But it just seems like there's a nice alignment with automation. AI could be similar because I mean, AI could be used for really bad. Automation. Okay, it maybe takes, the perception is it takes jobs away, but it's a really nice alignment that you can point at a lot of different initiatives. >> Yeah. >> So I think that's really a fortunate dynamic. >> And that's, you know, that's what defines a partnership, right? It's that alignment of long-term interests that, you know, you make the investments now and the sacrifices now to drive that. It's not just commercial. It's not just transactional. >> Dave: Yeah. >> I mean, we were talking about the opportunities for these types of people and for us as a customer and for UiPath. It's it exists within that AI conversation that you were just talking about >> Dave: Yeah. >> Because from a technical perspective, you want to mitigate as much algorithmic bias within your training models. That's what these people are doing. It's helping to train models much more rapidly and effectively and objectively than we could have done otherwise. And that's, having that as part of our extended partnership within our network is going to accelerate the type of work that we want to do within the releases that we're seeing coming out of this conference. Because we don't have to worry about, oh, well, we've got to focus on tax forms and training the models to notice a signature. Because Autonomy Works has us covered there. They're enabling us to do more. We're enabling them to do a little more. And that's, that's the beauty of this intersection between the partners. >> Brian, I presume you talk with prospective customers of UiPath. And I presume also that you probably looked at some of their competitors. If you think about what differentiates this fast moving company, they talked this morning about the cadence of releases. Woo. Very fast. >> Brian: Yeah, it's a lot. >> Why UiPath for Dentsu? >> UiPath has been a tremendous partner for us since about 2017. And we've been able to move on that journey with UiPath. We've been able to help understand the products roadmaps and move at a similar pace as each other. So we're really lucky in that we have the flexibility as an advertising and media company that we're not beholden to internal audits, external audits, and really defined regulatory bodies. So we made a decision, I don't know what, six, seven months ago to collapse six UiPath on-prem instances and migrate to cloud with the sponsorship of our global CTO and our America CTO, just because it was the right thing to do. And because it would enable this type of partnership with external providers. So being able to move at that similar pace from a release cycle, but also from a feature adoption perspective, it's, it just makes the most sense for us. And we have that liberty to go to go do those things as we need to. >> Yeah. So the move to the cloud, you get, you're able to take advantage much faster. >> Yeah. >> Because what did we hear this morning? You release every six months. >> James: Yep. >> Yes. Which is typical for an on-prem. >> James: Yeah. >> And then, but you got to prepare for that. >> James: Yeah. >> I don't know how many N minus ones you support, but it's not infinite. >> James: Yeah. >> You got to move people along, so people have to prep. Whereas now in the cloud, there's the feature. Boom. >> Yeah. >> So being invested in automation for good topic, it's not, it's about automation for good across people in general, within internally to us and externally to us. For our clients, for our employees, and for our partners. The automation cloud enables that to happen much more seamlessly because we don't have the technical debt in place that requires people to VPN into our network and go through the bureaucracy of security, legal, and privacy. Which we've already done by the way, but those conversations bureaucratically still need to happen. With automation cloud, we're able to spin up Autonomy Works employees in real-time and give them the right set of access to go pursue the use cases that they want to, and that we need them to. So that, that technical debt release that we've experienced through the automation cloud is what's enabling us to do this type of good work. >> That makes sense. A bit more, less friction, obviously greater scale. >> Yeah. >> Easier to experiment. >> Yeah. >> Fail fast. >> We went from 12 separate programs to one program in a matter of a couple of months. >> It was wild. >> Yeah. >> And I imagine you're only really scratching the surface here with what you're doing with automation, that really, the horizon is the limit, as you said. Guys, thank you for joining us, talking about automation for good, what you're doing at Dentsu RPA with autistic adults. There's probably so many other great use cases that will come from this. Guys, we appreciate your time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, thanks for having us. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Thanks, you guys. >> Awesome. >> For Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you from Vegas UiPath FORWARD IV. (upbeat music plays)

>> Narrator: From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the Cube, covering UiPath Forward IV, brought to you by UiPath. >> Welcome back to the Cube, live at the Bellagio in Las Vegas. Lisa Martin, with Dave Vellante. We are with UiPath at Forward IV. The next topic of conversation is going to be a good one, and that's because it's automation for good. I've got two guests here joining Dave and me, James Droskoski, Strategic Account Exec at UiPath joins us and Brian Khlochkoff, head of automation at Dentsu. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Yeah. Thank you. >> Thanks for having us. >> Yeah. Happy to be here. >> So we're going to, we're going to to dig into automation for good, which is going to be a really feel-good conversation. We're going to get into what you're doing, but Brian, I wanted you to give the audience an overview of Dentsu as an organization. Who are you, what do you guys do? >> Sure. So Dentsu is a large network of advertising agencies. We're about 45,000 people large, 10 billion plus in revenue, going across for 125 markets. So we're a large enterprise advertising media, creative CXM type business. We're really focused on helping to elevate our clients' value when it comes to the value proposition around marketing, advertising, and media. >> So you think about that as a, as a, as a, a business that maybe, you know, it's hard to understand where automation might fit in. On the other hand, it's like a lot of moving parts, a lot of arms and legs. >> Brian: Hmmm. So how are you applying automation to the business? >> Sure. So when we first started doing proof of concepts level approaches, we approach things in a traditional, hey, let's go look at the shared services groups. Why are we having invoice processing delays? Things like that. And we started being a bit more prescriptive and proactive about how we were applying the limited POC budget we had to go after these problems. And we started doing some root cause analysis to understand the interaction between the back office functions and the mid office functions. And what we uncovered was that we could actually be really good custodians of budget and enable people at the same time by solving for problems at a root cause analysis level. So what I mean by that is even the invoices coming down the pipe, and it's not getting processed because it's missing critical information that could be easily added six processes upstream. So what really helped elevate the conversation that we're having around automation for good and be a catalyst for what we're going to talk about a bit later is, we just started connecting people from the mid office to the back office, helping them understand, hey, if we actually follow process properly, put the right controls in place with RPA to generate critical data elements on those invoices, Shaler in the back office doesn't have to work the weekends because there's not a pipeline backload of invoices for them to process. So we actually connected those mid office people with the back office people, and it really drove that human connection to drive the change management and then our automation journey. And that's kind of been the crux of what we've wanted to do over the past four years, finding ways to elevate our people's potential by integrating automation and AI into their actual day-to-day work. >> Hmm. So tech for good is a theme that you hear a lot and as a, as a media company, that, that, that kind of, we're not gotcha media, you know, we've more want to tell the story of tech athletes, and I think we've done a pretty good job of that over the past decade, but so it goes, tech's under fire constantly. It was basically big tech. We hear the Facebook hearings today and so forth, but so automation kind of early days, oh, you're going to take away my job. I think generally speaking with the fatigue of Zoom and the perpetual workday, people begin to understand that, hey, maybe automation is a good thing, but automation for good, what, what is that, James? >> Yeah, well, it's, it's not doing technology for the sake of technology. You know, at the end of the day, when we implement solutions with our customers like Dentsu, it's about, what's the impact? What's the change? What's the benefit? And what's unique about Dentsu is, because they've grown through acquisition and there are lots of different companies come together, you have to focus on the people first cause there is no one process or one system that we can look and just automate that system or process. So automation for good is about focusing on the people and how do we take the solutions and the programs and the technologies we have, make an impact so that somebody's day is better. Their, their, their job is better. That process are doing is easier and they can focus on more of the things that make them different. You know, specifically as we, we'll uncover in the conversation, you know, we looked at a program that Dentsu is doing around working with different types of people, as far as people with autism and what was the impact we could do there. And that's uncovered a journey that we've been together for the last two years around seeing we can have, we can make an impact with those types of folks who might not get the same types of opportunities that everybody else. >> Brian, talk about the, the catalyst for that program at Dentsu, couple years ago. >> Sure, so it goes back to that foundational layer of elevating people's potential. So the testimonial that we had from our own employees around applying automation, meaningful ways to progress their day to day came from an employee in the mid office who said, I didn't go $160,000 in student debt to copy paste stuff from Excel into this proprietary platform that we use for media. And that really resonated with us as leaders in this space and with our executive leadership, because there was a gap between what our people's skills were and what they were actually doing. They wanted to do Mad Men type stuff. They wanted to be the Don Draper's and the Peggy Olsen's of our industry. And they were losing that opportunity because we weren't tapping into the skills that they had to drive human-centric solutions for our clients. So taking that concept, we looked at the partnerships that we have with our outsourcing providers and Autonomy Works, which we're going to be doing a session later tomorrow with the CEO, Dave Friedman, we're going to spend a lot of time talking about how the unique skill sets of that company and those people can actually elevate them to do more tech-enabled work, but also enabling our own team to focus on building solutions with the skills that we have by allowing them to use the skills that they have to do the machine-learning training of models and things like that, which they really Excel at from a detail-oriented perspective. And that's not only a feel good story, but it's, it's great for our business because the resources on my immediate team are building product, they're building solutions, and we can rely on an excellent partner in them to help us with the maintenance overhead that we're creating through those solutions. And eventually through automation cloud, driving better outcomes through positive, negative reinforcement within machine learning. >> And there's specific examples with individuals with autism, correct? >> Correct. That's right. >> Add some color to that. What is that all about? >> Yeah. Let me tell you a little story. So when, when they first brought the conversation to me, I was terrified because I, the type of work that they were outsourcing was very repetitive rule-based and I'm like, this is perfect for automate. This is exactly what we automate. I was terrified that the program we were going to work on together was going to eliminate the program. And so I was, you know, cautiously, you know, approached it- (Dave laughs) >> How ironic. (laughing) >> I was like, hey, that sounds like a great idea. And I hung up. I was like, oh, how are we going to, how am I going to figure out this one? But through the conversation, and we just started, you know, brainstorming and putting our heads together. What was interesting is, because of the way that automations work, as far as being very structured and repetitive, it lends itself well to workers with autism. It's exactly the way they think and what we actually found after kind of coming up with the collaborative ideas, hey, wait a second. We were already doing these kind of bodathon, hackathon type programs with the Dentsu employees, teaching them the skills, how to build automations for themselves. What if we kind of modified it and adjusted it to cater to these types of individuals who learn differently, we have to approach it differently. And we went through the program, we adjusted everything. And what was incredible to see was they thrived with the ability to learn how to work this way. They built things that made them more productive, that created more capacity. They could do more with less now, work with more customers, do more work for, for their, for their customers because they had this almost assistant that was kind of like them. And it was, it was just so rewarding. You know, we talk about, again, what's automation for good all about? It's about that personal reward. >> Brian: Yeah. I mean, for me, you know, we didn't sell any more licenses or it wasn't about the commercial transaction. It was about, you know, catering to the segment of the workforce that, first of all, it was very educate, enlightening to me to see how many folks are out there that are unemployed. And I got to meet these first 15 individuals that couldn't have been more amazing and more smart and more diligent and hardworking, and that the numbers are something in the lines of between 50% and 90% unemployed because they just don't get the same opportunities as people without autism. It's kind of the world's set up for us. So to know that we could do this kind of program together to go have an impact in this community, was the reward in and of itself. And, you know, we've since been working together on how we continue to expand that, how do we, you know, take that forward and bring that everywhere? Cause that's the end of the day, I think beyond, you know, revenue, this is the stuff that really matters, especially in an organization at Dentsu that, this is important. >> Yeah. And I think building on the missed opportunity piece around 50% to 90% being unemployed, that's a missed opportunity for business as well. So those skills are so niche and they're so necessary for us to thrive within an environment that's moving as rapidly as we are, because we just can't keep pace with the change of feature sets that are being released, coupled with maintaining existing solutions that we've built. So it's in cross enabling people to really compliment each other's unique skills and strengths based off of strong, true partnership. So it really became a beautiful three-way partnership between Dentsu, Autonomy Works and UiPath that we continue to evolve as UiPath makes additional releases with emerging tech that we're officially hearing about right now. So we have a ton of different ideas that we can bring that into the fold. And what resonates with us the most is hearing different perspectives on how to apply that coming from that working group. So just a different way of thinking about things and the diversity of thought really resonates with, hey, are we actually applying this thing the right way? Should we be thinking about this differently? Cause you get a lot of, yes, people, you know, when we come and talk to people about how to apply this technology and when you have somebody with a different perspective, it's able to help us figure out what our long-term strategies are actually going to look like, but taking advantage of the resources and partnerships that we already have in place. >> In terms of that strategic vision, how do you think this three-way partnership that you mentioned is going to influence that percentage of those, these individuals who are unemployed? What are you, any predictions on how much you can bring that down with automation? >> I think that depends on Dave's staffing plan. (James laughs) But, but the goal is to grow, right? So I mean this, this is a, a startup out of Chicago that has, you know, a healthy amount of staff, but finding ways to apply those skills in new ways with technology that's emerging, the horizon is your, is your end point. Right? And I think with the advent of low-code no-code machine-learning, coming into this type of a platform, it's, it's only opportunistic, there's only, there's only things ahead of us to do that. We just have to make sure that we train people properly and give them that opportunity cause they're going to run with it with the right leadership and those skills. >> Yeah. What, what's exciting also is, is, you know, what started as an idea and a conversation that's now turned into a pilot program and a little bit of expansion of the stuff we're working on together, we've taken some of the excitement and spread it beyond that now. So we've got partners like ENY and PWC and Revature that are saying, and Specialisterne and Automattic who helped in the initial program saying, how can we help? What can we do? How can we broaden this and how can we go out to the larger community and make a bigger impact? So, you know, I think it's exciting. We know we can see how fast RPA and these types of technologies are causing change. And we got to make sure that people don't get left behind. Especially, you know, someone as this important part of a segment of a workforce. If we can equip them with these skills to be relevant to their current employers or future employers, I think it's, it's critical. You know, another like, moment for me during this process was, I took for granted, you know, what working actually means, right? It creates independence for us, right? So you get a job, you get paid and generate income. You have the independence now to go live on your own, for, provide for yourself. A lot of these individuals, I learned are still living with their parents because they can't get employment. They don't have that independence that we take for granted. So I think, again, that's the essence of what automation for good is all about is, is being able to go and make an impact like that, to that community. And it's, you know, we talk about cultures and brands and, you know, it's also great to work with an organization like Dentsu cause they get it, right? Their product is ideas. It's human capital is their, their main ingredient of what they generate value for their customers. And so be able to take that and help people is just, I think what it's all about. >> You're lucky both to be in a business that the incentives are aligned. >> Yeah. >> You're not in businesses that are designed to appropriate data and push ads in front of our face or- >> James: Yeah. >> And a lot of big companies, It's almost like, okay, we got to do this. I mean, I don't mean to overstate this, but we have to do this because we're big and we're rich. >> James: Yeah. >> And so, and if we don't, we're going to get attacked. >> James: Yeah. >> Okay, and some of it, I can check, check box and to put somebody in charge of it. >> James: Yep. >> You know, often times a woman or a person of color. And I shouldn't be negative on that. >> James: Yeah. That's fine. That's good to do. But it just seems like there's a nice alignment with automation. >> James: Oh. >> AI could be similar because I mean, yeah. It can be used for really bad. Automation, okay, maybe takes, the perception is that it takes jobs away, but it's a really nice alignment that you can point at a lot of different initiatives. >> Yeah. >> So I think that's really a fortune- >> I know that's, that's what defines a partnership, right? It's that alignment of long-term interests that, you know, you make the investments now and the sacrifices now to drive that. It's not just commercial. It's not just transactional. >> Dave: Yeah. >> We were talking about the opportunities for these types of people and for us as a customer and for UiPath, it's, it exists within that AI conversation that you were just talking about. >> Dave: Yeah. >> Because from a technical perspective, you want to mitigate as much algorithmic bias within your training models. That's what these people are doing. It, it's helping to train models much more rapidly and effectively and objectively than we could have done otherwise. And that's, having that as part of our extended partnership within our network is going to accelerate the type of work that we want to do within the releases that we're seeing coming out of this conference because we don't have to worry about oh, well, we got to focus on tax forms and training the models to notice a signature because Autonomy Works has us covered there. They're enabling us to do more. We're enabling them to do a little more. >> Hmmm. And that's, that's the beauty of this intersection between the partners. >> Brian, I presume you talk with prospective customers of UiPaths. And I presume also that you probably looked at some of their competitors. If you think about what differentiates this fast-moving company, they talked this morning about the cadence that releases. Whew, very fast. (laughing) >> Brian: Yeah, that's a lot. >> Why UiPath for Dentsu? >> UiPath has been a tremendous partner for us since about 2017. And we've been able to move on that journey with UiPath. We've been able to help understand the product roadmaps and move at a similar pace as each other. So we're really lucky in that we have the flexibility as an advertising and media company that we're not beholden to internal audits, external audits, and really defined regulatory bodies. So we made a decision, you know, what, six, seven months ago to collapse six UiPath on-prem instances and migrate to cloud with the sponsorship of our global CTO and our Amaris CTO, just because it was the right thing to do. And because it would enable this type of partnership with external providers. So being able to move at that similar pace from a release cycle, but also from a feature adoption perspective, it's, it just makes the most sense for us. And we have that liberty to go to go do those things as we need to. >> Yeah, so the move to the cloud, you get, you're able to take advantage much faster- >> James: Yeah. >> Because what did, what did we hear this morning? You release every six months? >> James: Yep. >> Yes. Which is typical for an on-prem. >> James: Yeah. >> And then, but you got to prepare for that. >> James: Yeah. I don't know how many N minus ones you support, but it's not infinite. >> James: Yeah. >> You got to move people along. So people have to prep, whereas now in the cloud, there's the feature, boom. >> Oh yeah. So being investing automation for good topic, it's not, it's about automation for good across people in general, within internally to us and externally to us, for our clients, for our employees and for our partners. The automation cloud enables that to happen much more seamlessly because we don't have the technical debt in place that requires people to VPN into our network and go through the bureaucracy of security, legal, and privacy, which we've already done by the way, for those conversations, bureaucratically still needs to happen. With automation cloud, we're able to spin up autonomy Works employees in real time and give them the right set of access to go pursue the use cases that they want to, and that we need them to. So that, that technical debt release that we've experienced through the automation cloud is what's enabling us to do this type of good work. >> It makes sense. A bit more, less friction, obviously, greater scale. >> Yeah. >> Easier to experiment. >> Yeah. >> Fail fast. >> We went from 12 separate programs to one program in a matter of a couple of months. >> It was wild. (Brian laughs) >> And I imagine you're only really scratching the surface here with what you're doing with automation. That really the horizon is the limit as you said. Guys, thank you for joining us, talking about automation for good. What you're doing at Dentsu RPA with autistic adults, there's probably so many other great use cases that will come from this. Guys, we appreciate your time. >> Yeah. >> Thanks for having us. Thank you. >> Thanks you guys, awesome. >> For Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin coming to you from Vegas, UiPath forward IV. [light-hearted music plays]

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle. Okay, we're now going >>to explore what it's like to be the CEO of a fast paced growth company in Silicon Valley. And how the cloud, however, you wanted to find the cloud public cloud on Prem Hybrid, etcetera. How it supported that growth. And with me is Kathy Southwick, who is the CEO of pure storage. Kathy is really deep experience. Managing technology organizations spent a number of years overseeing A T and T s cloud planning and engineering and another few years overseeing a team of a Couple 1000 network and I T engineers working to break the physical stranglehold of fossilized telco networks, implementing network functions, virtualization and a software defined methodology for the company. And, of course, you spent the last couple of years is the CEO of Pure. So Cathy, it's great to see you again. Thank you for coming on the program. >>Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. >>You're very welcome. And so so >>given your >>experience with cloud, you know, dating back to really the early part of last decade. How did you look at cloud back then and how How is it evolved from your point of view? >>You know, it's Ah, it's an interesting question because I think that we've there's some things that have moved very fast and there's some some things that are very much the same as they were even a decade ago. I think that all companies are very focused on How do you think about Cloud? Do you think about it as on Prem? And when I started, we really were focused on an on Prem solution, and I'm in building an on Prem private cloud to help modernize our business. So I think that, you know, with that all companies are still in that same mindset of how do I want to think about Cloud? And how do I want to think about that on Prem versus Public versus, you know, combination or some type of hybrid solution? So I think all of us around that journey, it just seems like it's taken. It's probably a bit longer than most of us probably thought from beginning. >>So as a CEO thinking about that evolution, how has that informed the way you think about applying specifically the public cloud to pure business. >>You know, I think that we've been a for pure ourselves. I think we're in a really unique position. We were essentially born in the cloud. So we're, you know, company. That's 10 11 years old. And if I If I give the contrast of that of 18 t being, you know, 130 year old company Onda having a lot of applications that have, you know, lived historically on prim. There's very different issues and challenges that you have pure has had that. I think the advantage just like many other companies that were born in the cloud who have can see what advantages are very quickly. And we made decisions early on that said that we were gonna actually do both. We were gonna look to say, How do I put those applications in that in that data, whether it was on public or in on Prem and be able to do that both in the i t. Side as well as within the product side? So how we build our products now, >>as I mentioned up front, you have obviously a lot of experience managing large technology teams. My question is. When you first saw the emergence of the modern cloud, how did you communicate with your team members? I mean, you mentioned you were kind of building your own private cloud, so I guess that's less threatening to people. But what was it like? You know, Was there a concern? You know, with the eager to jump in? What was that dynamic like? And how did you manage >>it? You know, it's really it's a different depending on the different part of the organization. So I'll give you kind of two things I learned one of them was that our teams in the operation side, they saw it as a huge advantage. They saw it as an opportunity to really modernized to really get themselves both their own individual skill sets advanced, as well as provide a better level of service for our internal, you know, customer, so to speak. Our application in our data partners that we had to work with, um, they thought is an opportunity to bring agility to their applications quicker speed to market, um, or currency of their applications. So they actually got some benefits that they weren't. Actually, I'll call planning for they were they had the opportunity toe get investment in their applications without having to put the that investment on themselves. I would tell you the thing I learned from the teams, this is probably might be a little bit surprised. But often, you know, leaders believe like, you gotta have all the answers. You're gonna drive everything you're gonna let make sure everyone knows what needs to get done and what I actually found. This was actually one of my big moments, I think, was our Our individuals are employees are teams. They're so brilliant and so bright on driving change. And a lot of times leaders, I think, get in the way that so for cloud and adoption, it was really about me getting out of the way. It was really about setting that north star for where we want to go from the ability to deliver fast and quick for our business. And they get out of the way and let our teams actually drive. So it was a great, um, it was we actually actually saw the reverse. I saw more employees wanting to drive, and I needed to, like, back out and just say, Here's what we need to go. Let them drive us there. >>Alright, So I gotta ask you don't Please don't hate me for asking this question, but was your your gender and advantage was at a disadvantage. It wasn't really irrelevant in that regard. >>It was a relevant um, I think that it was I actually I truly believe it's irrelevant. I think it was literally recognizing that leaders need to set vision and what we want to achieve and let our letter of teams help us drive to get there. And I think that that is, you know, gender neutral. I think it's really about, you know, kind of checking your ego and everything else out to the side. And it's really about empowering people in our teams. Thio help drive us there. >>So thinking about that that learning specifically are there any similar tectonic shifts that you're you're seeing today where you can apply that experience? I'm just like, for instance, new modes of application development and requiring new skill sets are, or maybe another that you can think of. >>Yeah, I think I think honestly, it traverse is everything that we that we have to do as a you know, as a leader of a technology team, and whether you're in a high growth company like Pure or you're in a company that's trying to take costs out of your business or trying to, you know, do things. I think that it, um it really is a matter of leaders needing to set the stage. And so if we're trying to drive, you know, changing the business, it's really making sure that we're doing I'll calm or more empowering of our employees and they because they will see the way that we can get there. It's just a matter of, you know, letting them have that ability to do it. >>So you joined pure around two years ago and obviously growing very quickly. I love pandemic has changed the trajectory of that growth, but still good outlook. Um, but Silicon Valley fast paced company, you know, I kind of put it in the camp of the the work days, and the service now is that could have similar similar cultural patterns there. So you talked a little bit about this, but I wonder if we could come back and more specifically how you're leveraging cloud, how you're thinking about it, you know, on Prem Hybrid, Now the edge. And how did that contribute Thio Puros growth? >>Yeah, that za great question because I think that why I shared earlier, you know, we were essentially born in the cloud. I think that what it's really driven us is to be thinking more forward about where customers were going and what their challenges are. So whether it's for the I t. Teams on what we're trying to do to deliver for our business and, you know, innovation, they're obviously trying to make sure they can hit their revenue goals and all those things that important that every business deals with. But we also have that same mindset on how we develop our products. So it's really all driven by where the customer is going that they need data mobility. They need application mobility. They need really portability so that the moment that you have that ability where you can kind of control your destiny and define it, and you only could get that by having, you know, applications that are portable and data that is mobile and secure, that you have that kind of flexibility. So I think for pure we've been definitely in a great position to drive for our customers or drive where our customers are going. And so we have to find our entire product set. So not just how we operate as a business and run our business. But then how we define for our customers Same mindset is if our customers are going to the cloud that we need, have products that can help them to be in the cloud or be, you know, on print and let them decide what that looks like. Well, >>it's interesting you mentioned that and I hearken back to the The Port Works acquisition, which is an attempt to really change the way application development has done is another sort of approach Thio in a sort of modern data architecture, you, as the CEO of a technology company, most CEO, is that I know inside the tech companies that they're sort of the dog Fuding or champagne drinking, you know, testing. So So had you already started to sort of use that tech? Are you starting to, you know, Does it support that vision that you just put forth? Maybe you could talk a little bit about that. >>Yeah, It does. So we eso We had not been using port works as a za product. We were just starting down that path of looking at How do we do container ization for the applications that we do have on Prem? That's both in our engineering side as well as within I t. And so But we quickly have recognized, just like you know, And part of that acquisition is applications or companies won't have the ability to have that portability of their applications and have that flexibility that they're all striving for unless they've done things like containerized or applications made them that they're able to move them across different cloud environments, whether that's on Prem or off Prem or some hybrid eso for ourselves. You know, Port Works was a really critical acquisition, will help us on our own journey of doing the application, modernization and putting that keep those capabilities in place. But it will also enable our customers to have that same flexibility. So, again, going back to the we've adopt, these things aren't like a this is for this group, and this is for you know, this customer. It's really about how we operate both internally and then what we are providing for our customers so that portability and being able to have control of your own destiny, that's that's really to me what hybrid cloud is all about. And you can't really achieve that If you don't have some of these capabilities within your, you know, within kind of your toolbox. >>Great. Thank you for that. So I'm interested in is the head of, ah technology group at a tech company? And what are the meaningful differences? I mean, a lot of differences, but relative to CEO of a large telco or or other incumbent, you know, what are some of the good, the bad? And, uh, you know, the ugly, the differences. >>Yeah, you know, it's I meet with a lot of CEOs across Silicon Valley and we kind of joked that when you are working in a company that is a technology based company, you know, everybody knows how to dio, you know, because you do you have a brilliant engineers and and that they do know. I think the difference that you start to see is that you know, I t is, um is required to make sure that availability is their inherent in what you're doing on immediate roll out with like, you know, an application that's occurring. That's very different than how you do product lifecycle management. Um, what what we've what I've seen, actually, though, is more similarities. I know that's probably surprised to you, but coming out of a T and T, what I have been working on those last couple of years was actually doing the combination of engineering and I t into one organization and that you do have a lot of benefits for, for how you can then develop, how you can manage and the skill sets. There's a lot of similarities. So there's there's actually probably more similarities between companies and on what they're trying to achieve than than you would probably think there would be just because we're all trying to make sure that we can develop quickly. How about is >>it relates to cloud Cathy? I mean, I remember the early days of cloud, a lot of the big banks that we could build our own cloud. We can essentially compete at scale with with Amazon, where you know the big bank on. Then I think they quickly realized well, the economics actually don't favor us necessarily. Do you think there's a different perception about the use of cloud between sort of traditional incumbents and a tech company in Silicon Valley? And if so, how? >>So now I think that the if you are, you know, a bank is you refer to, and having it really is where you're starting from. If you have a very large infrastructure footprint and application footprint, your applications probably not born in the cloud. There's a lot of modernization that has to be done with those applications so that they could operate as efficiently in a public cloud as an example. And I think that's something that sometimes gets overlooked is there are enormous benefits going to public cloud. But there's also cost if your applications or your data doesn't really fit as well in that type of environment. So I think that for large enterprises like the banks, some of the telcos they've got very large footprints of infrastructure. Already, those investments have been made, and what they're really looking for is how doe I increase my ability to, you know, whether it's agility or its speed, or it's lower cost or it's all those things, and I think that's the That's a different path of different journey that they're on. So they're trying to balance all those equations of, you know, the economics as well as the ability to have, you know, no more investment or minimal investment in that infrastructure. For companies like Pure, where we started off of those investments are decision and kind of. The decision tree that we use is if it makes sense. And I don't have to make that investment on Prem for whatever reason, that I should go ahead and make that investment in a public cloud strategy or a hybrid cloud strategy kind. Differentiate that because I think that it's different depending on the company. You are, um, and so it really kind of depends on where you're starting from then. It also depends on what you're trying to achieve if you're just trying to achieve an economic solution. If you're trying to achieve a strategic solution, if you're trying to get agility. Andi, I think it is different for companies, and it's different depending where you're at in your kind of journey. So for a Silicon Valley company whose you know hyper growth, you know, one. We're very focused on abilities. You know everything from scale, because we've got to scale quickly. And those are things that we don't wanna have to start going and building all these data centers to go do that. We don't have those embedded investments. So it's Ah, it's a real difference in where your starting point is. And I think there I think there's value in in all those different type of approaches, >>right? And it's a real advantage for you that you don't have to shell out all that cap ex on Data Center. >>That's right. Um, as you look >>back at the last 10 years of cloud, you know, it was largely about eliminating the heavy lift of infrastructure deployment and SAS if I ng you know the business, what do you see? Going forward? What do you think the was gonna unfold in the 2020 is? Is it gonna be more of the same? Or do you expect meaningful differences? >>I think that we're going to get better as, um as you know, technology leaders on how to quickly make decisions. Um, and not its have it less political. And I think Kobe is actually taught us a lot about that around companies more willing to make. I'll call it a A you know, a faster decision and remove some of the red tape. I've heard this from many of my peers that things that might have taken them months and months to get approved. Um, it's nowadays if even if they even have to go get approval. So I think that what we're going to see is we'll see the continuance of, um, you know, a public and I'll call really hybrid cloud type of solutions. And I think it will be more purposeful about what goes there and how. How that can help us toe, you know, I'll call it enable us much faster than we've been able to do it before. I think that's been our challenges. We've, you know, we get mired into some of the you know, the details of some of these things that maybe it would be easier for us to just make the decision to move forward than Thio. Keep going around around on what's the right way to do it. Yeah, >>so that's interesting. You're saying about the fast decisions? I felt like, ah, lot of 2020 was very tactical. Okay, go deal with the work from home, etcetera. Although you you definitely see I t spending, uh, suppressed in 2020. Our forecast was minus 4% but we're saying it's gonna grow. We actually see a decent snapback. You know, what are you seeing? Generally, Not even necessarily pure. But when you talk to some of your colleagues, you obviously in the technology business, it's good to be in the technology business these days. But to use do you see spending, you know, generally coming back And maybe the timing first half, maybe a little soft second. What are you seeing >>there? Yeah, almost identical wage that. I think that we'll see, you know, a little bit of, ah tendency toe, not really hold back, but really kind of see what's happening in the first quarter of the year. There's a lot, you know, going on with companies and everyone's having to kind of balance at what that looks like. I do see. And what I'm hearing from several of my peers is that, you know, it's not necessarily budget cuts. It might be budget re directions. It might be rude prioritization, but definitely technology investments are still there, and it's still important for businesses to keep on their journeys on. But we do see that even at pure as a way to differentiate ourselves in the market as well, do you? What >>about the work from home piece? I mean, prior to co vid, I think the average was about 15 or 16% of employees work from home. You know, now it's gotta be, you know, well, over in the high seventies, Onda CEO is that we've talked to suggest that, you know, that's gonna come down in the first half, maybe down toe, still pretty high 50 60%. But then eventually is gonna settle at a higher rate than it was pre pre covert. Maybe double that rate may be in the 30 35 maybe even 40%. You know? What are you expecting >>Something probably very similar. I think that what companies have recognized and I actually tell you CEO have thought this many of them for many years that there is a huge value value and having some type of hybrid model. There's value in having, you know, both from a business perspective as well as a personal perspective. So employees work life balance and trying to balance that. So I think that, you know, we a pure and myself, As you know the CEO hugely expect that we will see some type of you know, I'll call leveling off, figure out what's the right for the right group. And I think what we don't want to get into is, you know, Chris prescriptive that says, You know, this is what the company will look like as a whole. I think it really is going to come down to certain certain types of work are more conducive to a more work, remote environment others need to have. And I always kind of uses term of individual, you know, productivity versus team. You know, productivity. We've seen, you know, great advances and or individual productivity. A team productivity is still a challenge when you're still trying to do very collaborative, you know, brainstorming sessions. And so we are looking at capabilities to be able to enable our employees to do that. But there there's some things you just can't replace. The human interaction and ability to very quickly inter actively, you know, five minutes catch someone to do that. So I think we'll see. We'll see both. We'll see some leveling off, and I think we'll see some areas of businesses that have once thought You can't do that remote. They might actually say, Hey, that is work that commute remote So I think we'll see a combination of both. That's an >>interesting perspective on productivity. And what's the What's the old saying is You could go go faster alone. But further as a team and and not a lot of folks have been talking about that team productivity, we we clearly saw the hit the positive hit on productivity, especially in the in the technology business. So So my question then is so you expect? You know H Q doesn't go away. Maybe it gets, you know, maybe it gets smaller, Uh, but so is their pent up demand for technology spending at the headquarters. Because you've been you've been, you know, pushing tech out out to the edge out to the remote workers. Securing those remote workers figuring out better ways to collaborate is their pent up demand at H. Q. >>Um, absolutely. We've been, you know, we've been actually exploring different technologies. We've been uh, looking at what are things that you know could help create a different kind of experience, eh? So I do think it will be some different types of technology. Those would be the things that maybe aren't even out there developed yet on Have you create some of those comparable experiences. So I think that the notion of you know individuals will continue to thrive, but we've got to start working on How do we continue to enhance that? That team, um, collaborative productivity environment that looks and feels different than what it might look like today. Yeah. >>They got to leave it there. Great as always. Having you in the Cube. Thanks so much for participating in Cuban Cloud. >>Great. It's great to be here. Thank you. >>Keep it right there. Back more content right after this short break. >>Yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good, brought to you by on shape. >>Hello, everyone, and welcome to Innovation for Good Program, hosted by the Cuban. Brought to You by on Shape, which is a PTC company. My name is Dave Valentin. I'm coming to you from our studios outside of Boston. I'll be directing the conversations today. It's a very exciting, all live program. We're gonna look at how product innovation has evolved and where it's going and how engineers, entrepreneurs and educators are applying cutting edge, cutting edge product development techniques and technology to change our world. You know, the pandemic is, of course, profoundly impacted society and altered how individuals and organizations they're gonna be thinking about an approaching the coming decade. Leading technologists, engineers, product developers and educators have responded to the new challenges that we're facing from creating lifesaving products to helping students learn from home toe how to apply the latest product development techniques and solve the world's hardest problems. And in this program, you'll hear from some of the world's leading experts and practitioners on how product development and continuous innovation has evolved, how it's being applied toe positive positively affect society and importantly where it's going in the coming decades. So let's get started with our first session fueling Tech for good. And with me is John Hirschbeck, who is the president of the Suffers, a service division of PTC, which acquired on shape just over a year ago, where John was the CEO and co founder, and Dana Grayson is here. She is the co founder and general partner at Construct Capital, a new venture capital firm. Folks, welcome to the program. Thanks so much for coming on. >>Great to be here, Dave. >>All right, John. >>You're very welcome. Dana. Look, John, let's get into it for first Belated congratulations on the acquisition of Von Shape. That was an awesome seven year journey for your company. Tell our audience a little bit about the story of on shape, but take us back to Day zero. Why did you and your co founders start on shape? Well, >>actually, start before on shaping the You know, David, I've been in this business for almost 40 years. The business of building software tools for product developers and I had been part of some previous products in the industry and companies that had been in their era. Big changes in this market and about, you know, a little Before founding on shape, we started to see the problems product development teams were having with the traditional tools of that era years ago, and we saw the opportunity presented by Cloud Web and Mobile Technology. And we said, Hey, we could use Cloud Web and Mobile to solve the problems of product developers make their Their business is run better. But we have to build an entirely new system, an entirely new company, to do it. And that's what on shapes about. >>Well, so notwithstanding the challenges of co vid and difficulties this year, how is the first year been as, Ah, division of PTC for you guys? How's business? Anything you can share with us? >>Yeah, our first year of PTC has been awesome. It's been, you know, when you get acquired, Dave, you never You know, you have great optimism, but you never know what life will really be like. It's sort of like getting married or something, you know, until you're really doing it, you don't know. And so I'm happy to say that one year into our acquisition, um, PTC on shape is thriving. It's worked out better than I could have imagined a year ago. Along always, I mean sales are up. In Q four, our new sales rate grew 80% vs Excuse me, our fiscal Q four Q three. In the calendar year, it grew 80% compared to the year before. Our educational uses skyrocketing with around 400% growth, most recently year to year of students and teachers and co vid. And we've launched a major cloud platform using the core of on shape technology called Atlas. So, um, just tons of exciting things going on a TTC. >>That's awesome. But thank you for sharing some of those metrics. And of course, you're very humble individual. You know, people should know a little bit more about you mentioned, you know, we founded Solid Works, co founded Solid where I actually found it solid works. You had a great exit in the in the late nineties. But what I really appreciate is, you know, you're an entrepreneur. You've got a passion for the babies that you you helped birth. You stayed with the salt systems for a number of years. The company that quiet, solid works well over a decade. And and, of course, you and I have talked about how you participated in the the M I T. Blackjack team. You know, back in the day, a zai say you're very understated, for somebody was so accomplished. Well, >>that's kind of you, but I tend to I tend Thio always keep my eye more on what's ahead. You know what's next, then? And you know, I look back Sure to enjoy it and learn from it about what I can put to work making new memories, making new successes. >>Love it. Okay, let's bring Dana into the conversation. Hello, Dana. You look you're a fairly early investor in in on shape when you were with any A And and I think it was like it was a serious B, but it was very right close after the A raise. And and you were and still are a big believer in industrial transformation. So take us back. What did you see about on shape back then? That excited you. >>Thanks. Thanks for that. Yeah. I was lucky to be a early investment in shape. You know, the things that actually attracted me. Don shape were largely around John and, uh, the team. They're really setting out to do something, as John says humbly, something totally new, but really building off of their background was a large part of it. Um, but, you know, I was really intrigued by the design collaboration side of the product. Um, I would say that's frankly what originally attracted me to it. What kept me in the room, you know, in terms of the industrial world was seeing just if you start with collaboration around design what that does to the overall industrial product lifecycle accelerating manufacturing just, you know, modernizing all the manufacturing, just starting with design. So I'm really thankful to the on shape guys, because it was one of the first investments I've made that turned me on to the whole sector. And while just such a great pleasure to work with with John and the whole team there. Now see what they're doing inside PTC. >>And you just launched construct capital this year, right in the middle of a pandemic and which is awesome. I love it. And you're focused on early stage investing. Maybe tell us a little bit about construct capital. What your investment thesis is and you know, one of the big waves that you're hoping to ride. >>Sure, it construct it is literally lifting out of any what I was doing there. Um uh, for on shape, I went on to invest in companies such as desktop metal and Tulip, to name a couple of them form labs, another one in and around the manufacturing space. But our thesis that construct is broader than just, you know, manufacturing and industrial. It really incorporates all of what we'd call foundational industries that have let yet to be fully tech enabled or digitized. Manufacturing is a big piece of it. Supply chain, logistics, transportation of mobility or not, or other big pieces of it. And together they really drive, you know, half of the GDP in the US and have been very under invested. And frankly, they haven't attracted really great founders like they're on in droves. And I think that's going to change. We're seeing, um, entrepreneurs coming out of the tech world orthe Agnelli into these industries and then bringing them back into the tech world, which is which is something that needs to happen. So John and team were certainly early pioneers, and I think, you know, frankly, obviously, that voting with my feet that the next set, a really strong companies are going to come out of the space over the next decade. >>I think it's a huge opportunity to digitize the sort of traditionally non digital organizations. But Dana, you focused. I think it's it's accurate to say you're focused on even Mawr early stage investing now. And I want to understand why you feel it's important to be early. I mean, it's obviously riskier and reward e er, but what do you look for in companies and and founders like John >>Mhm, Um, you know, I think they're different styles of investing all the way up to public market investing. I've always been early stage investors, so I like to work with founders and teams when they're, you know, just starting out. Um, I happened to also think that we were just really early in the whole digital transformation of this world. You know, John and team have been, you know, back from solid works, etcetera around the space for a long time. But again, the downstream impact of what they're doing really changes the whole industry. And and so we're pretty early and in digitally transforming that market. Um, so that's another reason why I wanna invest early now, because I do really firmly believe that the next set of strong companies and strong returns for my own investors will be in the spaces. Um, you know, what I look for in Founders are people that really see the world in a different way. And, you know, sometimes some people think of founders or entrepreneurs is being very risk seeking. You know, if you asked John probably and another successful entrepreneurs, they would call themselves sort of risk averse, because by the time they start the company, they really have isolated all the risk out of it and think that they have given their expertise or what they're seeing their just so compelled to go change something, eh? So I look for that type of attitude experience a Z. You can also tell from John. He's fairly humble. So humility and just focus is also really important. Um, that there's a That's a lot of it. Frankly, >>Excellent. Thank you, John. You got such a rich history in the space. Uh, and one of you could sort of connect the dots over time. I mean, when you look back, what were the major forces that you saw in the market in in the early days? Particularly days of on shape on? And how is that evolved? And what are you seeing today? Well, >>I think I touched on it earlier. Actually, could I just reflect on what Dana said about risk taking for just a quick one and say, throughout my life, from blackjack to starting solid works on shape, it's about taking calculated risks. Yes, you try to eliminate the risk Sa's much as you can, but I always say, I don't mind taking a risk that I'm aware of, and I've calculated through as best I can. I don't like taking risks that I don't know I'm taking. That's right. You >>like to bet on >>sure things as much as you sure things, or at least where you feel you. You've done the research and you see them and you know they're there and you know, you, you you keep that in mind in the room, and I think that's great. And Dana did so much for us. Dana, I want to thank you again. For all that, you did it every step of the way, from where we started to to, you know, your journey with us ended formally but continues informally. Now back to you, Dave, I think, question about the opportunity and how it's shaped up. Well, I think I touched on it earlier when I said It's about helping product developers. You know, our customers of the people build the future off manufactured goods. Anything you think of that would be manufacturing factory. You know, the chair you're sitting in machine that made your coffee. You know, the computer you're using, the trucks that drive by on the street, all the covert product research, the equipment being used to make vaccines. All that stuff is designed by someone, and our job is given the tools to do it better. And I could see the problems that those product developers had that we're slowing them down with using the computing systems of the time. When we built solid works, that was almost 30 years ago. If people don't realize that it was in the early >>nineties and you know, we did the >>best we could for the early nineties, but what we did. We didn't anticipate the world of today. And so people were having problems with just installing the systems. Dave, you wouldn't believe how hard it is to install these systems. You need toe speck up a special windows computer, you know, and make sure you've got all the memory and graphics you need and getting to get that set up. You need to make sure the device drivers air, right, install a big piece of software. Ah, license key. I'm not making this up. They're still around. You may not even know what those are. You know, Dennis laughing because, you know, zero cool people do things like this anymore. Um, and it only runs some windows. You want a second user to use it? They need a copy. They need a code. Are they on the same version? It's a nightmare. The teams change, you know? You just say, Well, get everyone on the software. Well, who's everyone? You know, you got a new vendor today? A new customer tomorrow, a new employee. People come on and off the team. The other problem is the data stored in files, thousands of files. This isn't like a spreadsheet or word processor, where there's one file to pass around these air thousands of files to make one, even a simple product. People were tearing their hair out. John, what do we do? I've got copies everywhere. I don't know where the latest version is. We tried like, you know, locking people out so that only one person can change it At the time that works against speed, it works against innovation. We saw what was happening with Cloud Web and mobile. So what's happened in the years since is every one of the forces that product developers experience the need for speed, the need for innovation, the need to be more efficient with their people in their capital. Resource is every one of those trends have been amplified since we started on shape by a lot of forces in the world. And covert is amplified all those the need for agility and remote work cove it is amplified all that the same time, The acceptance of cloud. You know, a few years ago, people were like cloud, you know, how is that gonna work now They're saying to me, You know, increasingly, how would you ever even have done this without the cloud. How do you make solid works work without the cloud? How would that even happen? You know, once people understand what on shapes about >>and we're the >>Onley full SAS solution software >>as a service, >>full SAS solution in our industry. So what's happened in those years? Same problems we saw earlier, but turn up the gain, their bigger problems. And with cloud, we've seen skepticism of years ago turn into acceptance. And now even embracement in the cova driven new normal. >>Yeah. So a lot of friction in the previous environments cloud obviously a huge factor on, I guess. I guess Dana John could see it coming, you know, in the early days of solid works with, you know, had Salesforce, which is kind of the first major independent SAS player. Well, I guess that was late nineties. So his post solid works, but pre in shape and their work day was, you know, pre on shape in the mid two thousands. And and but But, you know, the bet was on the SAS model was right for Crick had and and product development, you know, which maybe the time wasn't a no brainer. Or maybe it was, I don't know, but Dana is there. Is there anything that you would invest in today? That's not Cloud based? >>Um, that's a great question. I mean, I think we still see things all the time in the manufacturing world that are not cloud based. I think you know, the closer you get to the shop floor in the production environment. Um e think John and the PTC folks would agree with this, too, but that it's, you know, there's reliability requirements, performance requirements. There's still this attitude of, you know, don't touch the printing press. So the cloud is still a little bit scary sometimes. And I think hybrid cloud is a real thing for those or on premise. Solutions, in some cases is still a real thing. What what we're more focused on. And, um, despite whether it's on premise or hybrid or or SAS and Cloud is a frictionless go to market model, um, in the companies we invest in so sass and cloud, or really make that easy to adopt for new users, you know, you sign up, started using a product, um, but whether it's hosted in the cloud, whether it's as you can still distribute buying power. And, um, I would I'm just encouraging customers in the customer world and the more industrial environment to entrust some of their lower level engineers with more budget discretionary spending so they can try more products and unlock innovation. >>Right? The unit economics are so compelling. So let's bring it, you know, toe today's you know, situation. John, you decided to exit about a year ago. You know? What did you see in PTC? Other than the obvious money? What was the strategic fit? >>Yeah, Well, David, I wanna be clear. I didn't exit anything. Really? You >>know, I love you and I don't like that term exit. I >>mean, Dana had exit is a shareholder on and so it's not It's not exit for me. It's just a step in the journey. What we saw in PTC was a partner. First of all, that shared our vision from the top down at PTC. Jim Hempleman, the CEO. He had a great vision for for the impact that SAS can make based on cloud technology and really is Dana of highlighted so much. It's not just the technology is how you go to market and the whole business being run and how you support and make the customers successful. So Jim shared a vision for the potential. And really, really, um said Hey, come join us and we can do this bigger, Better, faster. We expanded the vision really to include this Atlas platform for hosting other SAS applications. That P D. C. I mean, David Day arrived at PTC. I met the head of the academic program. He came over to me and I said, You know, and and how many people on your team? I thought he'd say 5 40 people on the PTC academic team. It was amazing to me because, you know, we were we were just near about 100 people were required are total company. We didn't even have a dedicated academic team and we had ah, lot of students signing up, you know, thousands and thousands. Well, now we have hundreds of thousands of students were approaching a million users and that shows you the power of this team that PTC had combined with our product and technology whom you get a big success for us and for the teachers and students to the world. We're giving them great tools. So so many good things were also putting some PTC technology from other parts of PTC back into on shape. One area, a little spoiler, little sneak peek. Working on taking generative design. Dana knows all about generative design. We couldn't acquire that technology were start up, you know, just to too much to do. But PTC owns one of the best in the business. This frustrated technology we're working on putting that into on shaping our customers. Um, will be happy to see it, hopefully in the coming year sometime. >>It's great to see that two way exchange. Now, you both know very well when you start a company, of course, a very exciting time. You know, a lot of baggage, you know, our customers pulling you in a lot of different directions and asking you for specials. You have this kind of clean slate, so to speak in it. I would think in many ways, John, despite you know, your install base, you have a bit of that dynamic occurring today especially, you know, driven by the forced march to digital transformation that cove it caused. So when you sit down with the team PTC and talk strategy. You now have more global resource is you got cohorts selling opportunities. What's the conversation like in terms of where you want to take the division? >>Well, Dave, you actually you sounds like we should have you coming in and talking about strategy because you've got the strategy down. I mean, we're doing everything said global expansion were able to reach across selling. We got some excellent PTC customers that we can reach reach now and they're finding uses for on shape. I think the plan is to, you know, just go, go, go and grow, grow, grow where we're looking for this year, priorities are expand the product. I mentioned the breath of the product with new things PTC did recently. Another technology that they acquired for on shape. We did an acquisition. It was it was small, wasn't widely announced. It, um, in an area related to interfacing with electrical cad systems. So So we're doing We're expanding the breath of on shape. We're going Maura, depth in the areas were already in. We have enormous opportunity to add more features and functions that's in the product. Go to market. You mentioned it global global presence. That's something we were a little light on a year ago. Now we have a team. Dana may not even know what we have. A non shape, dedicated team in Barcelona, based in Barcelona but throughout Europe were doing multiple languages. Um, the academic program just introduced a new product into that space that z even fueling more success and growth there. Um, and of course, continuing to to invest in customer success and this Atlas platform story I keep mentioning, we're going to soon have We're gonna soon have four other major PTC brands shipping products on our Atlas Saas platform. And so we're really excited about that. That's good for the other PTC products. It's also good for on shape because now there's there's. There's other interesting products that are on shape customers can use take advantage of very easily using, say, a common log in conventions about user experience there, used to invest of all they're SAS based, so they that makes it easier to begin with. So that's some of the exciting things going on. I think you'll see PTC, um, expanding our lead in SAS based applications for this sector for our our target, uh, sectors not just in, um, in cat and data management, but another area. PTC's Big and his augmented reality with of euphoria, product line leader and industrial uses of a R. That's a whole other story we should do. A whole nother show augmented reality. But these products are amazing. You can you can help factory workers people on, uh, people who are left out of the digital transformation. Sometimes we're standing from machine >>all day. >>They can't be sitting like we are doing Zoom. They can wear a R headset in our tools, let them create great content. This is an area Dana is invested in other companies. But what I wanted to note is the new releases of our authoring software. For this, our content getting released this month, used through the Atlas platform, the SAS components of on shape for things like revision management and collaboration on duh workflow activity. All that those are tools that we're able to share leverage. We get a lot of synergy. It's just really good. It's really fun to have a good time. That's >>awesome. And then we're gonna be talking to John MacLean later about that. Let's do a little deeper Dive on that. And, Dana, what is your involvement today with with on shape? But you're looking for you know, which of their customers air actually adopting. And they're gonna disrupt their industries. And you get good pipeline from that. How do you collaborate today? >>That sounds like a great idea. Um, Aziz, John will tell you I'm constantly just asking him for advice and impressions of other entrepreneurs and picking his brain on ideas. No formal relationship clearly, but continue to count John and and John and other people in on shaping in the circle of experts that I rely on for their opinions. >>All right, so we have some questions from the crowd here. Uh, one of the questions is for the dream team. You know, John and Dana. What's your next next collective venture? I don't think we're there yet, are we? No. >>I just say, as Dana said, we love talking to her about. You know, Dana, you just returned the compliment. We would try and give you advice and the deals you're looking at, and I'm sort of casually mentoring at least one of your portfolio entrepreneurs, and that's been a lot of fun for May on, hopefully a value to them. But also Dana. We uran important pipeline to us in the world of some new things that are happening that we wouldn't see if you know you've shown us some things that you've said. What do you think of this business? And for us, it's like, Wow, it's cool to see that's going on And that's what's supposed to work in an ecosystem like this. So we we deeply value the ongoing relationship. And no, we're not starting something new. I got a lot of work left to do with what I'm doing and really happy. But we can We can collaborate in this way on other ventures. >>I like this question to somebody asking With the cloud options like on shape, Wilmore students have stem opportunities s Oh, that's a great question. Are you because of sass and cloud? Are you able to reach? You know, more students? Much more cost effectively. >>Yeah, Dave, I'm so glad that that that I was asked about this because Yes, and it's extremely gratified us. Yes, we are because of cloud, because on shape is the only full cloud full SAS system or industry were able to reach. Stem education brings able to be part of bringing step education to students who couldn't get it otherwise. And one of most gratifying gratifying things to me is the emails were getting from teachers, um, that that really, um, on the phone calls that were they really pour their heart out and say We're able to get to students in areas that have very limited compute resource is that don't have an I T staff where they don't know what computer that the students can have at home, and they probably don't even have a computer. We're talking about being able to teach them on a phone to have an android phone a low end android phone. You can do three D modeling on there with on shape. Now you can't do it any other system, but with on shape, you could do it. And so the teacher can say to the students, They have to have Internet access, and I know there's a huge community that doesn't even have Internet access, and we're not able, unfortunately to help that. But if you have Internet and you have even an android phone, we can enable the educator to teach them. And so we have case after case of saving a stem program or expanding it into the students that need it most is the ones we're helping here. So really excited about that. And we're also able to let in addition to the run on run on whatever computing devices they have, we also offer them the tools they need for remote teaching with a much richer experience. Could you teach solid works remotely? Well, maybe if the student ran it had a windows workstation. You know, big, big, high end workstation. Maybe it could, but it would be like the difference between collaborating with on shape and collaborate with solid works. Like the difference between a zoom video call and talking on the landline phone. You know, it's a much richer experience, and that's what you need. And stem teaching stem is hard, So yeah, we're super super. Um, I'm excited about bringing stem to more students because of cloud yond >>we're talking about innovation for good, and then the discussion, John, you just had it. Really? There could be a whole another vector here. We could discuss on diversity, and I wanna end with just pointing out. So, Dana, your new firm, it's a woman led firm, too. Two women leaders, you know, going forward. So that's awesome to see, so really? Yeah, thumbs up on that. Congratulations on getting that off the ground. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Okay, so thank you guys. Really appreciate It was a great discussion. I learned a lot and I'm sure the audience did a swell in a moment. We're gonna talk with on shaped customers to see how they're applying tech for good and some of the products that they're building. So keep it right there. I'm Dave Volonte. You're watching innovation for good on the Cube, the global leader in digital tech event coverage. Stay right there. >>Oh, yeah, it's >>yeah, yeah, around >>the globe. It's the Cube presenting innovation for good. Brought to you by on shape. >>Okay, we're back. This is Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good. A program on Cuba 3 65 made possible by on shape of PTC company. We're live today really live tv, which is the heritage of the Cube. And now we're gonna go to the sources and talkto on shape customers to find out how they're applying technology to create real world innovations that are changing the world. So let me introduce our panel members. Rafael Gomez Furberg is with the Chan Zuckerberg bio hub. A very big idea. And collaborative nonprofit was initiative that was funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan, and really around diagnosing and curing and better managing infectious diseases. So really timely topic. Philip Tabor is also joining us. He's with silver side detectors, which develops neutron detective detection systems. Yet you want to know if early, if neutrons and radiation or in places where you don't want them, So this should be really interesting. And last but not least, Matthew Shields is with the Charlottesville schools and is gonna educate us on how he and his team are educating students in the use of modern engineering tools and techniques. Gentlemen, welcome to the Cuban to the program. This should be really interesting. Thanks for coming on. >>Hi. Or pleasure >>for having us. >>You're very welcome. Okay, let me ask each of you because you're all doing such interesting and compelling work. Let's start with Rafael. Tell us more about the bio hub and your role there, please. >>Okay. Yeah. So you said that I hope is a nonprofit research institution, um, funded by Mark Zuckerberg and his wife, Priscilla Chan. Um, and our main mission is to develop new technologies to help advance medicine and help, hopefully cure and manage diseases. Um, we also have very close collaborations with Universe California, San Francisco, Stanford University and the University California Berkeley on. We tried to bring those universities together, so they collaborate more of biomedical topics. And I manage a team of engineers. They by joining platform. Um, and we're tasked with creating instruments for the laboratory to help the scientist boats inside the organization and also in the partner universities Do their experiments in better ways in ways that they couldn't do before >>in this edition was launched Well, five years ago, >>it was announced at the end of 2016, and we actually started operation with at the beginning of 2017, which is when I joined, um, So this is our third year. >>And how's how's it going? How does it work? I mean, these things take time. >>It's been a fantastic experience. Uh, the organization works beautifully. Um, it was amazing to see it grow From the beginning, I was employee number 12, I think eso When I came in, it was just a nem P office building and empty labs. And very quickly we had something running about. It's amazing eso I'm very proud of the work that we have done to make that possible. Um And then, of course, that's you mentioned now with co vid, um, we've been able to do a lot of very cool work attire being of the pandemic in March, when there was a deficit of testing, uh, capacity in California, we spun up a testing laboratory in record time in about a week. It was crazy. It was a crazy project, Um, but but incredibly satisfying. And we ended up running all the way until the beginning of November, when the lab was finally shut down. We could process about 3000 samples a day. I think at the end of it all, we were able to test about 100 on the order of 100 and 50,000 samples from all over the state. We were providing free testing toe all of the Department of Public Health Department of Public Health in California, which at the media pandemic, had no way to do testing affordably and fast. So I think that was a great service to the state. Now the state has created that testing system that would serve those departments. So then we decided that it was unnecessary to keep going with testing in the other biopsy that would shut down. >>All right. Thank you for that. Now, Now, Philip, you What you do is mind melting. You basically helped keep the world safe. Maybe describe a little bit more about silver sod detectors and what your role is there and how it all works. >>Tour. So we make a nuclear bomb detectors and we also make water detectors. So we try and do our part thio keep the world from blowing up and make it a better place at the same time. Both of these applications use neutron radiation detectors. That's what we make. Put them out by import border crossing places like that. They can help make sure that people aren't smuggling. Shall we say very bad things. Um, there's also a burgeoning field of research and application where you can use neutrons with some pretty cool physics to find water so you could do things. Like what? A detector up in the mountains and measure snowpack. Put it out in the middle of the field and measure soil moisture content. And as you might imagine, there's some really cool applications in, uh, research and agronomy and public policy for this. >>All right, so it's OK, so it's a It's much more than, you know, whatever fighting terrorism, it's there's a riel edge or I kind of i o t application for what you guys >>do. We do both its's to plowshares. You might >>say a mat. I I look at your role is kind of scaling the brain power for for the future. Maybe tell us more about Charlottesville schools and in the mission that you're pursuing and what you do. >>Thank you. Um, I've been in Charlottesville City schools for about 11 or 12 years. I started their teaching, um, a handful of classes, math and science and things like that. But Thescore board and my administration had the crazy idea of starting an engineering program about seven years ago. My background is an engineering is an engineering. My masters is in mechanical and aerospace engineering and um, I basically spent a summer kind of coming up with what might be a fun engineering curriculum for our students. And it started with just me and 30 students about seven years ago, Um, kind of a home spun from scratch curriculum. One of my goals from the outset was to be a completely project based curriculum, and it's now grown. We probably have about six or 700 students, five or six full time teachers. We now have pre engineering going on at the 5th and 6th grade level. I now have students graduating. Uh, you know, graduating after senior year with, like, seven years of engineering under their belt and heading off to doing some pretty cool stuff. So it's It's been a lot of fun building a program and, um, and learning a lot in the process. >>That's awesome. I mean, you know, Cuba's. We've been passionate about things like women in tech, uh, diversity stem. You know, not only do we need more, more students and stem, we need mawr underrepresented women, minorities, etcetera. We were just talking to John Herstek and integrate gration about this is Do you do you feel is though you're I mean, first of all, the work that you do is awesome, but but I'll go one step further. Do you feel as though it's reaching, um, or diverse base? And how is that going? >>That's a great question. I think research shows that a lot of people get funneled into one kind of track or career path or set of interests really early on in their educational career, and sometimes that that funnel is kind of artificial. And so that's one of the reasons we keep pushing back. Um, so our school systems introducing kindergartners to programming on DSO We're trying to push back how we expose students to engineering and to stem fields as early as possible. And we've definitely seen the first of that in my program. In fact, my engineering program, uh, sprung out of an after school in Extracurricular Science Club that actually three girls started at our school. So I think that actually has helped that three girls started the club that eventually is what led to our engineering programs that sort of baked into the DNA and also our eyes a big public school. And we have about 50% of the students are under the poverty line and we e in Charlottesville, which is a big refugee town. And so I've been adamant from Day one that there are no barriers to entry into the program. There's no test you have to take. You don't have to have be taking a certain level of math or anything like that. That's been a lot of fun. To have a really diverse set of kids enter the program and be successful, >>that's final. That's great to hear. So, Philip, I wanna come back to you. You know, I think about maybe some day we'll be able to go back to a sporting events, and I know when I when I'm in there, there's somebody up on the roof looking out for me, you know, watching the crowd, and they have my back. And I think in many ways, the products that you build, you know, our similar. I may not know they're there, but they're keeping us safe or they're measuring things that that that I don't necessarily see. But I wonder if you could talk about a little bit more detail about the products you build and how they're impacting society. >>Sure, so There are certainly a lot of people who are who are watching, trying to make sure things were going well in keeping you safe that you may or may not be aware of. And we try and support ah lot of them. So we have detectors that are that are deployed in a variety of variety of uses, with a number of agencies and governments that dio like I was saying, ports and border crossing some other interesting applications that are looking for looking for signals that should not be there and working closely to fit into the operations these folks do. Onda. We also have a lot of outreach to researchers and scientists trying to help them support the work they're doing. Um, using neutron detection for soil moisture monitoring is a some really cool opportunities for doing it at large scale and with much less, um, expense or complication than would have been done. Previous technologies. Um, you know, they were talking about collaboration in the previous segment. We've been able to join a number of conferences for that, virtually including one that was supposed to be held in Boston, but another one that was held out of the University of Heidelberg in Germany. And, uh, this is sort of things that in some ways, the pandemic is pushing people towards greater collaboration than they would have been able to do. Had it all but in person. >>Yeah, we did. Uh, the cube did live works a couple years ago in Boston. It was awesome show. And I think, you know, with this whole trend toward digit, I call it the Force march to digital. Thanks to cove it I think that's just gonna continue. Thio grow. Rafael. What if you could describe the process that you use to better understand diseases? And what's your organization's involvement? Been in more detail, addressing the cove in pandemic. >>Um, so so we have the bio be structured in, Um um in a way that foster so the combination of technology and science. So we have to scientific tracks, one about infectious diseases and the other one about understanding just basic human biology, how the human body functions, and especially how the cells in the human body function on how they're organized to create tissues in the body. On Ben, it has this set of platforms. Um, mind is one of them by engineering that are all technology rated. So we have data science platform, all about data analysis, machine learning, things like that. Um, we have a mass spectrometry platform is all about mass spectrometry technologies to, um, exploit those ones in service for the scientist on. We have a genomics platform that it's all about sequencing DNA and are gonna, um and then an advanced microscopy. It's all about developing technologies, uh, to look at things with advanced microscopes and developed technologies to marry computation on microscopy. So, um, the scientists set the agenda and the platforms, we just serve their needs, support their needs, and hopefully develop technologies that help them do their experiments better, faster, or allow them to the experiment that they couldn't do in any other way before. Um And so with cove, it because we have that very strong group of scientists that work on have been working on infectious disease before, and especially in viruses, we've been able to very quickly pivot to working on that s O. For example, my team was able to build pretty quickly a machine to automatically purified proteins on is being used to purify all these different important proteins in the cove. It virus the SARS cov to virus Onda. We're sending some of those purified proteins all over the world. Two scientists that are researching the virus and trying to figure out how to develop vaccines, understand how the virus affects the body and all that. Um, so some of the machines we built are having a very direct impact on this. Um, Also for the copy testing lab, we were able to very quickly develop some very simple machines that allowed the lab to function sort of faster and more efficiently. Sort of had a little bit of automation in places where we couldn't find commercial machines that would do it. >>Um, eso Matt. I mean, you gotta be listening to this and thinking about Okay, So someday your students are gonna be working at organizations like like, like Bio Hub and Silver Side. And you know, a lot of young people they're just don't know about you guys, but like my kids, they're really passionate about changing the world. You know, there's way more important than you know, the financial angles and it z e. I gotta believe you're seeing that you're right in the front lines there. >>Really? Um, in fact, when I started the curriculum six or seven years ago, one of the first bits of feedback I got from my students is they said Okay, this is a lot of fun. So I had my students designing projects and programming microcontrollers raspberry, PiS and order we nose and things like that. The first bit of feedback I got from students was they said Okay, when do we get to impact the world? I've heard engineering >>is about >>making the world a better place, and robots are fun and all, but, you know, where is the real impact? And so um, dude, yeah, thanks to the guidance of my students, I'm baking that Maurin. Now I'm like day one of engineering one. We talk about how the things that the tools they're learning and the skills they're gaining, uh, eventually, you know, very soon could be could be used to make the world a better place. >>You know, we all probably heard that famous line by Jeff Hammer Barker. The greatest minds of my generation are trying to figure out how to get people to click on ads. I think we're really generally generationally, finally, at the point where young students and engineering a really, you know, a passionate about affecting society. I wanna get into the product, you know, side and understand how each of you are using on shape and and the value that that it brings. Maybe Raphael, you could start how long you've been using it. You know, what's your experience with it? Let's let's start there. >>I begin for about two years, and I switched to it with some trepidation. You know, I was used to always using the traditional product that you have to install on your computer, that everybody uses that. So I was kind of locked into that. But I started being very frustrated with the way it worked, um, and decided to give on ship chance. Which reputation? Because any change always, you know, causes anxiety. Um, but very quickly my engineers started loving it, Uh, just because it's it's first of all, the learning curve wasn't very difficult at all. You can transfer from one from the traditional product to entree very quickly and easily. You can learn all the concepts very, very fast. It has all the functionality that we needed and and what's best is that it allows to do things that we couldn't do before or we couldn't do easily. Now we can access the our cat documents from anywhere in the world. Um, so when we're in the lab fabricating something or testing a machine, any computer we have next to us or a tablet or on iPhone, we can pull it up and look at the cad and check things or make changes. That's something that couldn't do before because before you had to pay for every installation off the software for the computer, and I couldn't afford to have 20 installations to have some computers with the cat ready to use them like once every six months would have been very inefficient. So we love that part. And the collaboration features are fantastic, especially now with Kobe, that we have to have all the remote meetings eyes fantastic, that you can have another person drive the cad while the whole team is watching that person change the model and do things and point to things that is absolutely revolutionary. We love it. The fact that you have very, very sophisticated version control before it was always a challenge asking people, please, if you create anniversary and apart, how do we name it so that people find it? And then you end up with all these collection of files with names that nobody ever remembers, what they are, the person left. And now nobody knows which version is the right one. A mess with on shape on the version ING system it has, and the fact that you can go back in history off the document and go back to previous version so easily and then go back to the press and version and explore the history of the part that is truly, um, just world changing for us, that we can do that so easily on for me as a manager to manage this collection of information that is critical for our operations. It makes it so much easier because everything is in one place. I don't have to worry about file servers that go down that I have to administer that have to have I t taken care off that have to figure how to keep access to people to those servers when they're at home, and they need a virtual private network and all of that mess disappears. I just simply give give a person in accounting on shape and then magically, they have access to everything in the way I want. And we can manage the lower documents and everything in a way that is absolutely fantastic. >>Feel what was your what? What were some of the concerns you had mentioned? You had some trepidation. Was it a performance? Was it security? You know some of the traditional cloud stuff, and I'm curious as to how, How, whether any of those act manifested really that you had to manage. What were your concerns? >>Look, the main concern is how long is it going to take for everybody in the team to learn to use the system like it and buy into it? Because I don't want to have my engineers using tools against their will write. I want everybody to be happy because that's how they're productive. They're happy, and they enjoyed the tools they have. That was my main concern. I was a little bit worried about the whole concept of not having the files in a place where I couldn't quote unquote seat in some server and on site, but that That's kind of an outdated concept, right? So that took a little bit of a mind shift, but very quickly. Then I started thinking, Look, I have a lot of documents on Google Drive. Like, I don't worry about that. Why would I worry about my cat on on shape, right? Is the same thing. So I just needed to sort of put things in perspective that way. Um, the other, um, you know, the concern was the learning curve, right? Is like, how is he Will be for everybody to and for me to learn it on whether it had all of the features that we needed. And there were a few features that I actually discussed with, um uh, Cody at on shape on, they were actually awesome about using their scripting language in on shape to sort of mimic some of the features of the old cat, uh, in on, shaped in a way that actually works even better than the old system. So it was It was amazing. Yeah, >>Great. Thank you for that, Philip. What's your experience been? Maybe you could take us through your journey within shape. >>Sure. So we've been we've been using on shaped silver side for coming up on about four years now, and we love it. We're very happy with it. We have a very modular product line, so we make anything from detectors that would go into backpacks. Two vehicles, two very large things that a shipping container would go through and saw. Excuse me. Shape helps us to track and collaborate faster on the design. Have multiple people working a same time on a project. And it also helps us to figure out if somebody else comes to us and say, Hey, I want something new how we congrats modules from things that we already have put them together and then keep track of the design development and the different branches and ideas that we have, how they all fit together. A za design comes together, and it's just been fantastic from a mechanical engineering background. I will also say that having used a number of different systems and solid works was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Before I got using on shape, I went, Wow, this is amazing and I really don't want to design in any other platform. After after getting on Lee, a little bit familiar with it. >>You know, it's funny, right? I'll have the speed of technology progression. I was explaining to some young guns the other day how I used to have a daytime er and that was my life. And if I lost that daytime, er I was dead. And I don't know how we weigh existed without, you know, Google maps eso we get anywhere, I don't know, but, uh but so So, Matt, you know, it's interesting to think about, you know, some of the concerns that Raphael brought up, you hear? For instance, you know, all the time. Wow. You know, I get my Amazon bill at the end of the month that zip through the roof in, But the reality is that Yeah, well, maybe you are doing more, but you're doing things that you couldn't have done before. And I think about your experience in teaching and educating. I mean, you so much more limited in terms of the resource is that you would have had to be able to educate people. So what's your experience been with With on shape and what is it enabled? >>Um, yeah, it was actually talking before we went with on shape. We had a previous CAD program, and I was talking to my vendor about it, and he let me know that we were actually one of the biggest CAD shops in the state. Because if you think about it a really big program, you know, really big company might employ. 5, 10, 15, 20 cad guys, right? I mean, when I worked for a large defense contractor, I think there were probably 20 of us as the cad guys. I now have about 300 students doing cat. So there's probably more students with more hours of cat under their belt in my building than there were when I worked for the big defense contractor. Um, but like you mentioned, uh, probably our biggest hurdle is just re sources. And so we want We want one of things I've always prided myself and trying to do in this. Programs provide students with access two tools and skills that they're going to see either in college or in the real world. So it's one of the reason we went with a big professional cad program. There are, you know, sort of K 12 oriented software and programs and things. But, you know, I want my kids coding and python and using slack and using professional type of tools on DSO when it comes to cat. That's just that That was a really hurt. I mean, you know, you could spend $30,000 on one seat of, you know, professional level cad program, and then you need a $30,000 computer to run it on if you're doing a heavy assemblies, Um and so one of my dreams And it was always just a crazy dream. And I was the way I would always pitcher in my school system and say, someday I'm gonna have a kid on a school issued chromebook in subsidized housing, on public WiFi doing professional level bad and that that was a crazy statement until a couple of years ago. So we're really excited that I literally and you know, March and you said the forced march, the forced march into, you know, modernity, March 13th kids sitting in my engineering lab that we spent a lot of money on doing cad March 14th. Those kids were at home on their school issued chromebooks on public WiFi, uh, keeping their designs going and collaborating. And then, yeah, I could go on and on about some of the things you know, the features that we've learned since then they're even better. So it's not like this is some inferior, diminished version of Academy. There's so much about it. Well, I >>wanna I wanna ask you that I may be over my skis on this, but we're seeing we're starting to see the early days of the democratization of CAD and product design. It is the the citizen engineer, I mean, maybe insulting to the engineers in the room, But but is that we're beginning to see that >>I have to believe that everything moves into the cloud. Part of that is democratization that I don't need. I can whether you know, I think artists, you know, I could have a music studio in my basement with a nice enough software package. And Aiken, I could be a professional for now. My wife's a photographer. I'm not allowed to say that I could be a professional photographer with, you know, some cloud based software, and so, yeah, I do think that's part of what we're seeing is more and more technology is moving to the cloud. >>Philip. Rafael Anything you Dad, >>I think I mean, yeah, that that that combination of cloud based cat and then three d printing that is becoming more and more affordable on ubiquitous It's truly transformative, and I think for education is fantastic. I wish when I was a kid I had the opportunity to play with those kinds of things because I was always the late things. But, you know, the in a very primitive way. So, um, I think this is a dream for kids. Teoh be able to do this. And, um, yeah, there's so many other technologies coming on, like Arduino on all of these electronic things that live kids play at home very cheaply with things that back in my day would have been unthinkable. >>So we know there's a go ahead. Philip, please. >>We had a pandemic and silver site moved to a new manufacturing facility this year. I was just on the shop floor, talking with contractors, standing 6 ft apart, pointing at things. But through it all, our CAD system was completely unruffled. Nothing stopped in our development work. Nothing stopped in our support for existing systems in the field. We didn't have to think about it. We had other server issues, but none with our, you know, engineering cad, platform and product development in support world right ahead, which was cool, but also a in that's point. I think it's just really cool what you're doing with the kids. The most interesting secondary and college level engineering work that I did was project based, taken important problem to the world. Go solve it and that is what we do here. That is what my entire career has been. And I'm super excited to see. See what your students are going to be doing, uh, in there home classrooms on their chromebooks now and what they do building on that. >>Yeah, I'm super excited to see your kids coming out of college with engineering degrees because, yeah, I think that Project based experience is so much better than just sitting in a classroom, taking notes and doing math problems on day. I think it will give the kids a much better flavor. What engineering is really about Think a lot of kids get turned off by engineering because they think it's kind of dry because it's just about the math for some very abstract abstract concept on they are there. But I think the most important thing is just that hands on a building and the creativity off, making things that you can touch that you can see that you can see functioning. >>Great. So, you know, we all know the relentless pace of technology progression. So when you think about when you're sitting down with the folks that on shape and there the customer advisor for one of the things that that you want on shape to do that it doesn't do today >>I could start by saying, I just love some of the things that does do because it's such a modern platform. And I think some of these, uh, some some platforms that have a lot of legacy and a lot of history behind them. I think we're dragging some of that behind them. So it's cool to see a platform that seemed to be developed in the modern era, and so that Z it is the Google docks. And so the fact that collaboration and version ing and link sharing is and like platform agnostic abilities, the fact that that seems to be just built into the nature of the thing so far, That's super exciting. As far as things that, uh, to go from there, Um, I don't know, >>Other than price. >>You can't say >>I >>can't say lower price. >>Yeah, so far on P. D. C. S that work with us. Really? Well, so I'm not complaining. There you there, >>right? Yeah. Yeah. No gaps, guys. Whitespace, Come on. >>We've been really enjoying the three week update. Cadence. You know, there's a new version every three weeks and we don't have to install it. We just get all the latest and greatest goodies. One of the trends that we've been following and enjoying is the the help with a revision management and release work flows. Um, and I know that there's more than on shape is working on that we're very excited for, because that's a big important part about making real hardware and supporting it in the field. Something that was cool. They just integrated Cem markup capability. In the last release that took, we were doing that anyway, but we were doing it outside of on shapes. And now we get to streamline our workflow and put it in the CAD system where We're making those changes anyway when we're reviewing drawings and doing this kind of collaboration. And so I think from our perspective, we continue to look forward. Toa further progress on that. There's a lot of capability in the cloud that I think they're just kind of scratching the surface on you, >>right? I would. I mean, you're you're asking to knit. Pick. I would say one of the things that I would like to see is is faster regeneration speed. There are a few times with convicts, necessities that regenerating the document takes a little longer than I would like. It's not a serious issue, but anyway, I I'm being spoiled, >>you know? That's good. I've been doing this a long time, and I like toe ask that question of practitioners and to me, it It's a signal like when you're nit picking and that's what you're struggling to knit. Pick that to me is a sign of a successful product, and and I wonder, I don't know, uh, have the deep dive into the architecture. But are things like alternative processors. You're seeing them hit the market in a big way. Uh, you know, maybe helping address the challenge, But I'm gonna ask you the big, chewy question now. Then we maybe go to some audience questions when you think about the world's biggest problems. I mean, we're global pandemics, obviously top of mind. You think about nutrition, you know, feeding the global community. We've actually done a pretty good job of that. But it's not necessarily with the greatest nutrition, climate change, alternative energy, the economic divides. You've got geopolitical threats and social unrest. Health care is a continuing problem. What's your vision for changing the world and how product innovation for good and be applied to some of the the problems that that you all are passionate about? Big question. Who wants toe start? >>Not biased. But for years I've been saying that if you want to solve the economy, the environment, uh, global unrest, pandemics, education is the case. If you wanna. If you want to, um, make progress in those in those realms, I think funding funding education is probably gonna pay off pretty well. >>Absolutely. And I think Stam is key to that. I mean, all of the ah lot of the well being that we have today and then industrialized countries. Thanks to science and technology, right improvements in health care, improvements in communication, transportation, air conditioning. Um, every aspect of life is touched by science and technology. So I think having more kids studying and understanding that is absolutely key. Yeah, I agree, >>Philip, you got anything to add? >>I think there's some big technical problems in the world today, Raphael and ourselves there certainly working on a couple of them. Think they're also collaboration problems and getting everybody to be able to pull together instead of pulling separately and to be able to spur the ideas on words. So that's where I think the education side is really exciting. What Matt is doing and it just kind of collaboration in general when we could do provide tools to help people do good work. Uh, that is, I think, valuable. >>Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And along those lines, we have some projects that are about creating very low cost instruments for low research settings, places in Africa, Southeast Asia, South America, so that they can do, um, um, biomedical research that it's difficult to do in those place because they don't have the money to buy the fancy lab machines that cost $30,000 an hour. Um, so we're trying to sort of democratize some of those instruments. And I think thanks to tools like Kahn shape then is easier, for example, to have a conversation with somebody in Africa and show them the design that we have and discuss the details of it with them on. But it's amazing, right to have somebody, you know, 10 time zones away, Um, looking really life in real time with you about your design and discussing the details or teaching them how to build a machine, right? Because, um, you know, they have a three D printer. You can you can just give them the design and say like, you build it yourself, uh, even cheaper than and, you know, also billing and shipping it there. Um, so all that that that aspect of it is also super important. I think for any of these efforts to improve some of the hardest part was in the world for climate change. Do you say, as you say, poverty, nutrition issues? Um, you know, availability of water. You have that project at about finding water. Um, if we can also help deploy technologies that teach people remotely how to create their own technologies or how to build their own systems that will help them solve those forms locally. I think that's very powerful. >>Yeah, the point about education is right on. I think some people in the audience may be familiar with the work of Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee, the second machine age where they sort of put forth the premise that, uh, is it laid it out. Look, for the first time in history, machines air replacing humans from a cognitive perspective. Machines have always replaced humans, but that's gonna have an impact on jobs. But the answer is not toe protect the past from the future. The answer is education and public policy that really supports that. So I couldn't agree more. I think it's a really great point. Um, we have We do have some questions from the audience. If if we could If I can ask you guys, um, you know, this one kind of stands out. How do you see artificial intelligence? I was just talking about machine intelligence. Um, how do you see that? Impacting the design space guys trying to infuse a I into your product development. Can you tell me? >>Um, absolutely, like, we're using AI for some things, including some of these very low cost instruments that will hopefully help us diagnose certain diseases, especially this is that are very prevalent in the Third World. Um, and some of those diagnostics are these days done by thes armies of technicians that are trained to look under the microscope. But, um, that's a very slow process. Is very error prone and having machine learning systems that can to the same diagnosis faster, cheaper and also little machines that can be taken to very remote places to these villages that have no access to a fancy microscope. To look at a sample from a patient that's very powerful. And I we don't do this, but I have read quite a bit about how certain places air using a Tribune attorneys to actually help them optimize designs for parts. So you get these very interesting looking parts that you would have never thought off a person would have never thought off, but that are incredibly light ink. Earlier, strong and I have all sort of properties that are interesting thanks to artificial intelligence machine learning in particular >>yet another. The advantage you get when when your work is in the cloud I've seen. I mean, there's just so many applications that so if the radiology scan is in the cloud and the radiologist is goes to bed at night, Radiologist could come in in the morning and and say, Oh, the machine while you were sleeping was using artificial intelligence to scan these 40,000 images. And here's the five that we picked out that we think you should take a closer look at. Or like Raphael said, I can design my part. My, my, my, my, my you know, mount or bracket or whatever and go to sleep. And then I wake up in the morning. The machine has improved. It for me has made it strider strider stronger and lighter. Um And so just when your when your work is in the cloud, that's just that's a really cool advantage that you get that you can have machines doing some of your design work for you. >>Yeah, we've been watching, uh, you know, this week is this month, I guess is AWS re invent and it's just amazing to see how much effort is coming around machine learning machine intelligence. You know Amazon has sage maker Google's got, you know, embedded you no ML and big query. Uh, certainly Microsoft with Azure is doing tons of stuff and machine learning. I think the point there is that that these things will be infused in tow R and D and in tow software product by the vendor community. And you all will apply that to your business and and build value through the unique data that your collecting, you know, in your ecosystems. And and that's how you add value. You don't have to be necessarily, you know, developers of artificial intelligence, but you have to be practitioners to apply that. Does that make sense to you, Philip? >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think your point about value is really well chosen. We see AI involved from the physics simulations all the way up to interpreting radiation data, and that's where the value question, I think, is really important because it's is the output of the AI giving helpful information that the people that need to be looking at it. So if it's curating a serious of radiation alert, saying, Hey, like these air the anomalies. You need to look at eyes it, doing that in a way that's going to help a good response on. In some cases, the II is only as good as the people. That sort of gave it a direction and turn it loose. And you want to make sure that you don't have biases or things like that underlying your AI that they're going to result in less than helpful outcomes coming from it. So we spend quite a lot of time thinking about how do we provide the right outcomes to people who are who are relying on our systems? >>That's a great point, right? Humans air biased and humans build models, so models are inherently biased. But then the software is hitting the market. That's gonna help us identify those biases and help us, you know? Of course. Correct. So we're entering Cem some very exciting times, guys. Great conversation. I can't thank you enough for spending the time with us and sharing with our audience the innovations that you're bringing to help the world. So thanks again. >>Thank you so much. >>Thank you. >>Okay. Welcome. Okay. When we come back, John McElheny is gonna join me. He's on shape. Co founder. And he's currently the VP of strategy at PTC. He's gonna join the program. We're gonna take a look at what's next and product innovation. I'm Dave Volonte and you're watching innovation for good on the Cube, the global leader. Digital technology event coverage. We'll be right back. >>Okay? Okay. Yeah. Okay. >>From around >>the globe, it's the Cube. Presenting innovation for good. Brought to you by on shape. >>Okay, welcome back to innovation. For good. With me is John McElheny, who is one of the co founders of On Shape and is now the VP of strategy at PTC. John, it's good to see you. Thanks for making the time to come on the program. Thanks, Dave. So we heard earlier some of the accomplishments that you've made since the acquisition. How has the acquisition affected your strategy? Maybe you could talk about what resource is PTC brought to the table that allowed you toe sort of rethink or evolve your strategy? What can you share with us? >>Sure. You know, a year ago, when when John and myself met with Jim Pepperman early on is we're we're pondering. Started joining PTC one of things became very clear is that we had a very clear shared vision about how we could take the on shape platform and really extended for, for all of the PTC products, particular sort of their augmented reality as well as their their thing works or the i o. T business and their product. And so from the very beginning there was a clear strategy about taking on shape, extending the platform and really investing, um, pretty significantly in the product development as well as go to market side of things, uh, toe to bring on shape out to not only the PTC based but sort of the broader community at large. So So So PTC has been a terrific, terrific, um, sort of partner as we've we've gonna go on after this market together. Eso We've added a lot of resource and product development side of things. Ah, lot of resource and they go to market and customer success and support. So, really, on many fronts, that's been both. Resource is as well a sort of support at the corporate level from from a strategic standpoint and then in the field, we've had wonderful interactions with many large enterprise customers as well as the PTC channels. So it's been really a great a great year. >>Well, and you think about the challenges of in your business going to SAS, which you guys, you know, took on that journey. You know, 78 years ago. Uh, it's not trivial for a lot of companies to make that transition, especially a company that's been around as long as PTC. So So I'm wondering how much you know, I was just asking you How about what PCP TC brought to the table? E gotta believe you're bringing a lot to the table to in terms of the mindset, uh, even things is, is mundane is not the right word, but things like how you compensate salespeople, how you interact with customers, the notion of a service versus a product. I wonder if you could address >>that. Yeah, it's a it's a really great point. In fact, after we had met Jim last year, John and I one of the things we walked out in the seaport area in Boston, one of things we sort of said is, you know, Jim really gets what we're trying to do here and and part of let me bring you into the thinking early on. Part of what Jim talked about is there's lots of, you know, installed base sort of software that's inside of PTC base. That's helped literally thousands of customers around the world. But the idea of moving to sass and all that it entails both from a technology standpoint but also a cultural standpoint. Like How do you not not just compensate the sales people as an example? But how do you think about customer success? In the past, it might have been that you had professional services that you bring out to a customer, help them deploy your solutions. Well, when you're thinking about a SAS based offering, it's really critical that you get customers successful with it. Otherwise, you may have turned, and you know it will be very expensive in terms of your business long term. So you've got to get customers success with software in the very beginning. So you know, Jim really looked at on shape and he said that John and I, from a cultural standpoint, you know, a lot of times companies get acquired and they've acquired technology in the past that they integrate directly into into PTC and then sort of roll it out through their products, are there just reached channel, he said. In some respects, John John, think about it as we're gonna take PTC and we want to integrate it into on shape because we want you to share with us both on the sales side and customer success on marketing on operations. You know all the things because long term, we believe the world is a SAS world, that the whole industry is gonna move too. So really, it was sort of an inverse in terms of the thought process related to normal transactions >>on That makes a lot of sense to me. You mentioned Sharon turns the silent killer of a SAS company, and you know, there's a lot of discussion, you know, in the entrepreneurial community because you live this, you know what's the best path? I mean today, You see, you know, if you watch Silicon Valley double, double, triple triple, but but there's a lot of people who believe, and I wonder, if you come in there is the best path to, you know, in the X Y axis. If if it's if it's uh, growth on one and retention on the other axis. What's the best way to get to the upper right on? Really? The the best path is probably make sure you've nailed obviously the product market fit, But make sure that you can retain customers and then throw gas on the fire. You see a lot of companies they burn out trying to grow too fast, but they haven't figured out, you know that. But there's too much churn. They haven't figured out those metrics. I mean, obviously on shape. You know, you were sort of a pioneer in here. I gotta believe you've figured out that customer retention before you really, You know, put the pedal to the >>metal. Yeah, and you know, growth growth can mask a lot of things, but getting getting customers, especially the engineering space. Nobody goes and sits there and says, Tomorrow we're gonna go and and, you know, put 100 users on this and and immediately swap out all of our existing tools. These tools are very rich and deep in terms of capability, and they become part of the operational process of how a company designs and builds products. So any time anybody is actually going through the purchasing process. Typically, they will run a try along or they'll run a project where they look at. Kind of What? What is this new solution gonna help them dio. How are we gonna orient ourselves for success? Longer term. So for us, you know, getting new customers and customer acquisition is really critical. But getting those customers to actually deploy the solution to be successful with it. You know, we like to sort of, say, the marketing or the lead generation and even some of the initial sales. That's sort of like the Kindle ing. But the fire really starts when customers deploy it and get successful. The solution because they bring other customers into the fold. And then, of course, if they're successful with it, you know, then in fact, you have negative turn which, ironically, means growth in terms of your inside of your install. Bates. >>Right? And you've seen that with some of the emerging, you know, SAS companies, where you're you're actually you know, when you calculate whatever its net retention or renew ALS, it's actually from a dollar standpoint. It's up in the high nineties or even over 100%. >>So >>and that's a trend we're gonna continue. See, I >>wonder >>if we could sort of go back. Uh, and when you guys were starting on shape, some of the things that you saw that you were trying to strategically leverage and what's changed, you know, today we were talking. I was talking to John earlier about in a way, you kinda you kinda got a blank slate is like doing another startup. >>You're >>not. Obviously you've got installed base and customers to service, but But it's a new beginning for you guys. So one of the things that you saw then you know, cloud and and sas and okay, but that's we've been there, done that. What are you seeing? You know today? >>Well, you know, So So this is a journey, of course, that that on shape on its own has gone through it had I'll sort of say, you know, several iterations, both in terms of of of, you know, how do you How do you get customers? How do you How do you get them successful? How do you grow those customers? And now that we've been part of PTC, the question becomes okay. One, There is certainly a higher level of credibility that helps us in terms of our our megaphone is much bigger than it was when we're standalone company. But on top of that now, figuring out how to work with their channel with their direct sales force, you know, they have, um, for example, you know, very large enterprises. Well, many of those customers are not gonna go in forklift out their existing solution to replace it with with on shape. However, many of them do have challenges in their supply chain and communications with contractors and vendors across the globe. And so, you know, finding our fit inside of those large enterprises as they extend out with their their customers is a very interesting area that we've really been sort of incremental to to PTC. And then, you know, they they have access to lots of other technology, like the i o. T business. And now, of course, the augmented reality business that that we can bring things to bear. For example, in the augmented reality world, they've they've got something called expert capture. And this is essentially imagine, you know, in a are ah, headset that allows you to be ableto to speak to it, but also capture images still images in video. And you could take somebody who's doing their task and capture literally the steps that they're taking its geo location and from their builds steps for new employees to be, we'll learn and understand how todo use that technology to help them do their job better. Well, when they do that, if there is replacement products or variation of of some of the tools that that they built the original design instruction set for they now have another version. Well, they have to manage multiple versions. Well, that's what on shape is really great at doing and so taking our technology and helping their solutions as well. So it's not only expanding our customer footprint, it's expanding the application footprint in terms of how we can help them and help customers. >>So that leads me to the tam discussion and again, as part of your strategist role. How do you think about that? Was just talking to some of your customers earlier about the democratization of cat and engineering? You know, I kind of joked, sort of like citizen engineering, but but so that you know, the demographics are changing the number of users potentially that can access the products because the it's so much more of a facile experience. How are you thinking about the total available market? >>It really is a great question, You know, it used to be when you when you sold boxes of software, it was how many engineers were out there. And that's the size of the market. The fact that matter is now when, When you think about access to that information, that data is simply a pane of glass. Whether it's a computer, whether it's a laptop, UH, a a cell phone or whether it's a tablet, the ability to to use different vehicles, access information and data expands the capabilities and power of a system to allow feedback and iteration. I mean, one of the one of the very interesting things is in technology is when you can take something and really unleash it to a larger audience and builds, you know, purpose built applications. You can start to iterate, get better feedback. You know there's a classic case in the clothing industry where Zara, you know, is a fast sort of turnaround. Agile manufacturer. And there was a great New York Times article written a couple years ago. My wife's a fan of Zara, and I think she justifies any purchases by saying, You know, Zara, you gotta purchase it now. Otherwise it may not be there the next time. Yet you go back to the store. They had some people in a store in New York that had this woman's throw kind of covering Shaw. And they said, Well, it would be great if we could have this little clip here so we can hook it through or something. And they sent a note back toe to the factory in Spain, and literally two weeks later they had, you know, 4000 of these things in store, and they sold out because they had a closed loop and iterative process. And so if we could take information and allow people access in multiple ways through different devices and different screens, that could be very specific information that, you know, we remove a lot of the engineering data book, bring the end user products conceptually to somebody that would have had to wait months to get the actual physical prototype, and we could get feedback well, Weaken have a better chance of making sure whatever product we're building is the right product when it ultimately gets delivered to a customer. So it's really it's a much larger market that has to be thought of rather than just the kind of selling A boxes software to an engineer. >>That's a great story. And again, it's gonna be exciting for you guys to see that with. The added resource is that you have a PTC, Um, so let's talk. I promise people we wanna talk about Atlas. Let's talk about the platform. A little bit of Atlas was announced last year. Atlas. For those who don't know it's a SAS space platform, it purports to go beyond product lifecycle management and you You're talking cloud like agility and scale to CAD and product design. But John, you could do a better job than I. What do >>we need to know about Atlas? Well, I think Atlas is a great description because it really is metaphorically sort of holding up all of the PTC applications themselves. But from the very beginning, when John and I met with Jim, part of what we were intrigued about was that he shared a vision that on shape was more than just going to be a cad authoring tool that, in fact, you know, in the past these engineering tools were very powerful, but they were very narrow in their purpose and focus. And we had specialty applications to manage the versions, etcetera. What we did in on shape is we kind of inverted that thinking. We built this collaboration and sharing engine at the core and then kind of wrap the CAD system around it. But that collaboration sharing and version ING engine is really powerful. And it was that vision that Jim had that he shared that we had from the beginning, which was, how do we take this thing to make a platform that could be used for many other applications inside of inside of any company? And so not only do we have a partner application area that is is much like the APP store or Google play store. Uh, that was sort of our first Stan Shih ation of this. This this platform. But now we're extending out to broader applications and much meatier applications. And internally, that's the thing works in the in the augmented reality. But there'll be other applications that ultimately find its way on top of this platform. And so they'll get all the benefits of of the collaboration, sharing the version ing the multi platform, multi device. And that's an extremely extremely, um, strategic leverage point for the company. >>You know, it's interesting, John, you mentioned the seaport before. So PTC, for those who don't know, built a beautiful facility down at the Seaport in Boston. And, of course, when PTC started, you know, back in the mid 19 eighties, there was nothing at the seaport s. >>So it's >>kind of kind of ironic, you know, we were way seeing the transformation of the seaport. We're seeing the transformation of industry and of course, PTC. And I'm sure someday you'll get back into that beautiful office, you know? Wait. Yeah, I'll bet. And, uh and but I wanna bring this up because I want I want you to talk about the future. How you how you see that our industry and you've observed this has moved from very product centric, uh, plat platform centric with sass and cloud. And now we're seeing ecosystems form around those products and platforms and data flowing through the ecosystem powering, you know, new innovation. I wonder if you could paint a picture for us of what the future looks like to you from your vantage point. >>Yeah, I think one of the key words you said there is data because up until now, data for companies really was sort of trapped in different applications. And it wasn't because people were nefarious and they want to keep it limited. It was just the way in which things were built. And, you know, when people use an application like on shape, what ends up happening is there their day to day interaction and everything that they do is actually captured by the platform. And, you know, we don't have access to that data. Of course it's it's the customer's data. But as as an artifact of them using the system than doing their day to day job, what's happening is they're creating huge amounts of information that can then be accessed and analyzed to help them both improve their design process, improve their efficiencies, improve their actual schedules in terms of making sure they can hit delivery times and be able to understand where there might be roadblocks in the future. So the way I see it is companies now are deploying SAS based tools like on shape and an artifact of them. Using that platform is that they have now analytics and tools to better understand and an instrument and manage their business. And then from there, I think you're going to see, because these systems are all you know extremely well. Architected allow through, you know, very structured AP. I calls to connect other SAS based applications. You're gonna start seeing closed loop sort of system. So, for example, people design using on shape, they end up going and deploying their system or installing it, or people use the end using products. People then may call back into the customers support line and report issues, problems, challenges. They'll be able to do traceability back to the underlying design. They'll be able to do trend analysis and defect analysis from the support lines and tie it back and closed loop the product design, manufacture, deployment in the field sort of cycles. In addition, you can imagine there's many things that air sort of as designed. But then when people go on site and they have to install it. There's some alterations modifications. Think about think about like a large air conditioning units for buildings. You go and you go to train and you get a large air conditioning unit that put up on top of building with a crane. They have to build all kinds of adaptors to make sure that that will fit inside of the particulars of that building. You know, with on shape and tools like this, you'll be able to not only take the design of what the air conditioning system might be, but also the all the adapter plates, but also how they installed it. So it sort of as designed as manufactured as stalled. And all these things can be traced, just like if you think about the transformation of customer service or customer contacts. In the early days, you used to have tools that were PC based tools called contact management solution, you know, kind of act or gold mine. And these were basically glorified Elektronik role in Texas. It had a customer names and they had phone numbers and whatever else. And Salesforce and Siebel, you know, these types of systems really broadened out the perspective of what a customer relationship? Waas. So it wasn't just the contact information it was, you know, How did they come to find out about you as a company? So all of the pre sort of marketing and then kind of what happens after they become a customer and it really was a 3 60 view. I think that 3 60 view gets extended to not just to the customers, but also tools and the products they use. And then, of course, the performance information that could come back to the manufacturer. So, you know, as an engineer, one of the things you learn about with systems is the following. And if you remember, when the CD first came out CDs that used to talk about four times over sampling or eight times over sampling and it was really kind of, you know, the fidelity the system. And we know from systems theory that the best way to improve the performance of a system is to actually have more feedback. The more feedback you have, the better system could be. And so that's why you get 16 60 for example, etcetera. Same thing here. The more feedback we have of different parts of a company that a better performance, The company will be better customer relationships. Better, uh, overall financial performance as well. So that's that's the view I have of how these systems all tied together. >>It's a great vision in your point about the data is I think right on. It used to be so fragmented in silos, and in order to take a system view, you've gotta have a system view of the data. Now, for years, we've optimized maybe on one little component of the system and that sometimes we lose sight of the overall outcome. And so what you just described, I think is, I think sets up. You know very well as we exit. Hopefully soon we exit this this covert era on John. I hope that you and I can sit down face to face at a PTC on shape event in the near term >>in the seaport in the >>seaport would tell you that great facility toe have have an event for sure. It >>z wonderful >>there. So So John McElhinney. Thanks so much for for participating in the program. It was really great to have you on, >>right? Thanks, Dave. >>Okay. And I want to thank everyone for participating. Today we have some great guest speakers. And remember, this is a live program. So give us a little bit of time. We're gonna flip this site over toe on demand mode so you can share it with your colleagues and you, or you can come back and and watch the sessions that you heard today. Uh, this is Dave Volonte for the Cube and on shape PTC. Thank you so much for watching innovation for good. Be well, Have a great holiday. And we'll see you next time. Yeah.

>> Announcer: From "theCUBE" studios in Palo Alto and Boston, this is an episode in the Remote Works Citrix Virtual Series. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman. And welcome to this special conversation talking about back to work. Of course, the COVID global pandemic impacting everyone working from home and what's happening as these productivity changes. So, really happy to welcome to the program two of our Cube alumni. First of all, we have PJ Hough. He is the Executive Vice President and Chief Product Officer of the Citrix. And also joining us, Maribel Lopez, she is the Founder and Principal Analyst at Lopez Research. PJ and Maribel, thanks so much for joining us. >> Thank you Stu. >> Thanks Stu. >> Alright, so let's talk. You know, we've been in this pandemic now for, you know, a good chunk of time, many months. Some of us are back in the office. Some, we are talking a lot about, Maribel I think you talked about hybrid work in some of the readings and writings that you've done. So, I'd love to hear, you know, you're thinking right now, what you're hearing from your customers, and how should we be thinking about that workforce both today and really for kind of the next six to 12 months? PJ, maybe we'll start with you and how Citrix is helping and Maribel would love you to chime in with what you're hearing from customers and in your research. >> Yeah, I think it's a very interesting time for our customers right now. First of all, I have to say, generally impressed I am with the way that businesses have managed to transition from, you know, working in the office to working in this almost 100% remote environment for many of our customers. And that they've made that transition, you know, many of them using our technology. But using very much every technique available to them and maybe even bending some of the previous rules that they had about what their strategies would be with regard to particular technologies or solutions. But it's been really very impressive to see everyone move from that, you know, state where they had to leave their offices, many at relatively short notice, all the way to, you know, where we are today. And of course, as you mentioned Stu, we now have a subset of those customers who are actually either beginning to move back or preparing to move back. But, I still think that's a journey that's ahead of most of the customers that I deal with on a daily basis. >> So for me, you know, I feel that there are really several things happening, right? We have new profiles that we're looking at. So in the back to office, some people will go back to the office and be full time there. Many people will be remote work. In fact, you might even hire some people, and never physically have them come into the office to meet with anybody. It might all be done by a video as an example. And then there'll be nomadic workers, where some people will come in more for this concept of collaboration, and then they'll go back and work from home. So, those three profiles, I think we talked about them in the past, but really, there were very few people that thought there was going to be a large percentage of remote work. And nomadic work was more something that was thought I'm traveling. It wasn't thought that I might work at home and really use the office as more a collaborative engagement space. >> Yeah, it's been fascinating to watch many of the large technology enterprise companies that I work with, have been giving their employees the option. It is, you know, okay, hey, when things open up, do you want to stay fully remote? You know, it's going to be, you know, the ripple effect on real estate. Maribel as you were saying, you know, how we think about where they live and work compared to what they had before. PJ, I want to come to you. The discussion we've had for many years in the industry is, you know, customer experience is so important, but of course, it's the employee experience that is going to be a big piece of how customer experience and we create that delight. Of course, as you mentioned, Citrix has been helping customers, you know, really change how they think about where employees work, how employees work. So, you know, is this just accelerating what we've seen before? What does that, you know, employee experience look like in today's environment? >> Well, I think this is a really important area for, I think, organizations to focus on at a time like this. Obviously, there's been a lot of attention in the last decade on the customer experience, and I would say the digital customer experience. And maybe even a little bit ahead of some of the investments that have been made in the employee experience that has needed to keep up with that. And so, you know, we've been doing some research, some of it was done earlier in the year in fact, that shows a very high correlation between the performance of companies and the response from employees who claim that they have very good to excellent digital tools to help them do their job. And I think one of the areas where companies have either, I will say succeeded or maybe felt a little bit of stress in the system, in this movement of employees from the office to the home, is whether or not the experience they were able to deliver was consistent with what the employees had previously been leveraging when they were in the office. We've all built up a set of technologies and capabilities over many years in our offices, and now we somehow, you know, came home with a laptop or a Chromebook. And the reality was, you know, did that really reflect the best power of the tools and the capabilities that the employees previously had access to in the office? And it's certainly been an area of focus for us at Citrix. It's really matching that set of capabilities so that no matter where the employee is, they get full access to the set of applications and services with the security and the control that you need to protect all the assets of the enterprise. >> You know PJ, I think this is actually really important, this concept. I'm calling it a right time experience, you know, right information to the right person at the right time. So how do you get your applications and services to them on whatever device they might have had during the pandemic? Because a lot of people didn't actually have laptops at home. Maybe they were in an environment where they were using desktops. So that application delivery was really important. The security wrapped around that is super important because now we're in a scenario where basically the crown jewels of an organization, their data, is in homes and other places distributed around the world. So, we have to make sure that A, that that's accessible and that B, that that's secured. And I think that this is a new imperative that we've talked about for some time, but how you deliver it in this new world is very different. And I think that the employee experience had always lagged the customer experience. And now we're trying to close that gap and hopefully take it to the next level. >> It could great point out. I was just kind of laughing. I think back if you dial back the clock, you know, say 15 years, the discussion was all about the consumerization of IT. The experience that I had at home when I was using devices or using technology was better than what I had at the office. Now of course, you know, not only do I see people taking laptops home, they have their big screen monitors. They need to make sure that they have access to the right data. We need to make sure that things are secure. So PJ, help us understand a little bit what are some of those services? It's not, you know, the VDI conversation that we were having a decade ago. So, you know, what is it that IT has either been delivering or scrambling to make sure that we can be as productive at home as we were sitting in the office? >> Well, I can certainly tell you that for our customers, the critical pieces of technology that they've been leveraging, start with the workspace experience. We deliver a workspace experience that includes VDI. It includes virtualized applications and desktops, and for many organizations, they still are, you know, critical applications. But the application portfolio that the employees use today is much broader than that, and includes, you know, web applications and SaaS applications, homegrown service based applications, et-cetera, as well as there are mobile applications. And so really wrapping all that in a single workspace, that's the journey that we've been on as a company. And it's really being put to the test right now, by our customers who are really trying to give employees access, not just maybe to the one or two core applications, they needed to do their job. But remember, in the six months that's gone by, most of the employees have had to, you know, fill out an expense report, or maybe use the HR system for some process or maybe take some time off that they wanted to record. So in addition to the core applications, they needed access to that full suite of applications that they use on a daily basis. And so that's certainly one set of technologies that our customers have been leveraging. They're using it both for the experience, but also for the security because we provide that same control over those applications inside the workspace experience no matter what type of application it is. And then I'd say the second area where our technology has been heavily leveraged is in our networking products providing the access and the control back to the enterprise resources that employees have to get access to on a daily basis. >> I think one of the things that you brought up PJ. Sorry, sorry Stu, is really important. And that's sort of that acceleration layer to make sure that you have a good experience, and that you have that secure connection. The other thing I think is really interesting is we're actually rethinking what that experience means for the employee. It used to be that when you were trying to create an experience, it was sort of one device, one universal look and feel for everything, one set of applications. I actually think that organizations are being much more thoughtful now when they're creating what PJ referred to as a workspace. You know, the workspace for Maribel might look very different than it does for Stu than it does for PJ, and it might be a combination of different style technologies. I mean, it could be that, you know, I'm in the contact center and I want to VDI experience dropped on me where I don't have to manage anything. I don't do anything. I just open up the device, and everything comes down to me. And then it all goes away when I'm done with my workday, because that's what needs to happen. You can't have private information on, you know, personal identifiable information on someone's home device. So, I think we're really going to be sophisticated about what a workspace means. >> Yeah. Maribel I was just commenting PJ made a comment. There's this thing he said, talked about taking a day off. I didn't realize that was still a thing in 2020. But, Maribel I'm curious, you know, as many people felt that this was okay. It was a short time. I'm going to have a couple of months and then we're just going to go back to the office. I think we understand now that however, things have fundamentally changed. And therefore, this isn't okay, hey, temporarily I can do this, and have to worry about my kids and myself and the space and the internet and all of these pieces. What do companies need to do to kind of make sure that we've set up our employees for success? You know, what are some of the challenges that you hear out there? That people are saying, Oh, geez, you know, I'm ready for it. And I think you laid out very well. There's a big difference between, you know, you might be a developer, in which case, you're probably used to working distributed with people all around the globe and asynchronously, versus somebody that was like, hey, wait, you know, everyday I can have a stand up meeting with my entire team and look across the table at them. >> Well, there's a lot going on. Some of it is cultural. Some of it is technical. And some of it's actually surprising on the technology side. I think the first thing that when we started with COVID, we realized that not everybody has the right portfolio of devices and while that might sound a bit insignificant, if you do not have the say right PC with the right performance to do video, that's difficult. Now we're talking about all the environmental elements. Right? Do you have the right lighting? Do you have the right audio capability? Can I actually see you with that webcam? Is the webcam in the right place? So, the environmental things are sort of the first stage. We just talked a bit about the security that people are struggling with now, making sure that they have people with the right security for the data they have. The education and training around that also hasn't been done. You know, we had a certain set of people that were trained on how to work remotely, but then we sent everyone home, and they're clicking on links that they shouldn't be clicking on and compromising devices. So, there's a lot of challenges still with the education and training that we're seeing. And then as I mentioned earlier, I think that organizations are trying to figure out what's the right portfolio services and do I have the right portfolio services. I actually purchased something to deal with COVID, but is that the right thing? You know, and now we're moving from what I'm calling remote light to remote right. Where we're really being very thoughtful about who needs what style of services, how scalable are those services? And then culturally, I mean, I think we have issues like, how do you deal with multiple time zones? You have to find a time zone that works for, say, Europe and Asia for everybody to be on the call. Is that really feasible? How do we think about that collaborative environment moving forward? So, a lot of interesting challenges ahead. >> Yeah. Actually, I see customers really struggling or at least planning on all three fronts right now. The first being the people processes that we use. And think about the number of employees that have been hired since this has started, who've had an onboarding experience that's been, let's say, at least unorthodox. And maybe very much not what they were expecting or their colleagues either. I have certainly many colleagues now that I've never met face to face for the duration of their careers at Citrix. And hopefully that will change at some point in the future. But I know in the meantime, we're going to onboard quite a few more employees who have that same experience. So, I think your people processes, starting with onboarding, but all the way through to, you know, training and everything else, especially for managers, I think is really important. Then you think about the processes that we have as companies, and how we conduct our own business on a day to day basis. And many of our processes were highly optimized for face to face communication, as you pointed out, Stu. Being in the same conference room across the table from each other. So how do we, I would say, lean down maybe a little bit our processes, make them a little leaner, make them easier to operate for people who are operating remotely? And then that last part is, of course, what's the technology that we bring to burry these solutions? Both I will say the technology that we enable people to have access to when they're remotely working, working from home, and then how do we reconfigure shared space, office spaces so that they make even more sense, when we're back in the office? Personally, I don't see myself going back to the office to do solo work. I see myself going back to the office to communicate with other employees, to collaborate with other people and to connect to my team. And I'll probably find other ways to get my work done. But I leverage the office more as a shared collaboration space than I'd previously thought about in the past. >> PJ, I liked what Maribel talked about setting up, you know, remote work right. You know, the promise has been, we've talked about for a lot of years, like I remember working in the telecom industry back in the 90s. It was going to be well, you know, we should have ubiquitous video and access to everything, wherever we are. You know, 5G, come on we're going to have enough bandwidth to be able to solve all these things, right? So, help us understand, you know, how do we deploy something today that gives people the flexibility? So that as you said, you can be remote when you're doing solo work, you can go to the office. And, you know, are we getting to the point that companies have that elasticity and agility of technology to enable that? >> Well, I certainly think while the problem may have gotten more complicated, I think the array of solutions that's available to customers is staggering right now. Let's start with just the cloud infrastructure that's available to organizations. It truly is elastic capacity, if you've built a cloud footprint for your organization. And we've seen many of our customers take advantage of moving what had been a small group of employees who may have been working remote to having to support everybody, and just extending that cloud infrastructure capacity. Clearly something that you can do in a very different way than if you're trying to build out data center capacity, for example, on-premises in order to deal with it. So I think that's one thing that's changed. The second thing you hinted at, which is just the quality of network infrastructure. Clearly not perfect, and those of us that are working from home and remote locations, occasionally experience the glitches that we probably didn't experience quite so much in the office. But on average, I would say that technology has proven to be a, you know, highly scalable and worthy of all of the investment that we've made in it as countries and as industry. So, that's the second one that I think is really, you know, really quite different. And the third one is, I think the nature of the solutions that have been built on top. Not just, you know, the technologies from Citrix. But you look at many of the other applications, whether it's modern video conferencing software, or collaboration tools, many of them are designed with the cloud in mind and with connectivity as a core principle. And so many of these things that we previously had as a personal computing devices, there are no shared computing resources accessing vast quantities of capability that's cloud based over networks that have really evolved quite rapidly. And while all of these will continue to require investment. Once again, I would have to say how impressed I've been with the way that the infrastructure and the technology has scaled to meet what was really unprecedented demand in the last six months. >> I guess one of the things I want to pick up on that PJ said, is I've been starting to talk to clients about this concept of moving from a network of buildings to the network of one. So, when we think of employee experience, you know, my experience is a summation of like, the devices, the bandwidth, the service quality of the services that we're buying. And really, instead of us looking at managing just a few, you know, this floor, the WiFi on this floor, this building. We're now starting to say, okay, if we've got 10,000 people, then we have, you know, 10,000 networks of one, so to speak, that we're looking at monitoring, managing, making sure that we've optimized that experience, so that if we all want to have a call like this, that we can actually have a high quality video experience together. That's not a trivial task for organization. So I think that's another thing that they have to think about. And I'm actually really happy about this workspace concept and moving to this workspace concept. Because the great thing about a workspace is it's yours and it can be delivered wherever you are, on whatever devices are available. So, if you want to go to the office and use a shared device, you can log in and it's Maribel's experience. If I want to be at home, it's my experience at home. If I want to be in a coffee shop someday or hotel someday, hopefully, it's that experience as well. So, that I think is extremely powerful in a different way to think about what we're trying to achieve. >> Maribel I want to come back to you. It's companies have really had to make decisions very fast this year. Talk about how this whole discussion we have about where people work fits into the broader discussions of their cloud strategy and their security strategy which we've touched on a little bit. >> Well, one of the things I think is fascinating is pre-COVID. The type of discussions we're having with people is, I don't know if I can go to the cloud, or only this type of data can go to the cloud. And I really have to figure out how to parse it and do governance on it. And we going to need a managed, you know, three to five year transition plan. And I plan on having X percent of my apps this year and Y percent of my apps. Well, hey, that all went out the window, if you really wanted to get work done, you basically ramped up your cloud efforts very quickly. So, many of the sacred cows have actually gone away, which I'm really excited about. Because now I think we can truly take that digital transformation concept to the next level, where we're saying, okay, we're not recreating everything that we had in the past. We're now starting to think about, well, what types of new processes and services make sense? How do we actually do business process transformation? Not just technology transformation. So, very big change within six months. Now, I think a lot of organizations had to do it quick and dirty. And now they're going back and they're saying, okay, you know, part of that remote light or remote right concept it's just in general. Did I buy the right things? Should I buy something different? What is the set of SaaS services, cloud infrastructure I need? So, they're going full guns, like digital transformation has happened for many organizations now. Now, how do we get it to the next level? >> I think Maribel one of the important things that you highlighted is in this transition to new platforms like moving to the cloud, that organizations go through. Step one often is to effectively recreate what they had in that new environment. But the reality is that the cloud and the capability of the cloud opens up a whole vast new array of potential and possibilities. And certainly already in our Citrix portfolio, there are many examples of places where we've built services and capabilities in the cloud that would have been, you know, frankly either unimaginable or impossible to build, when we were thinking about customers running all of the software themselves in their own data centers. And as that transition occurs more and more, the customers who have made the leap to the cloud, not only do they get the elasticity of the capacity and the scale and the global footprint that cloud providers give them, but they also get access to new services and capabilities that they can use to power experiences inside their enterprise, either for their customers, or for their employees. And so, if you think about it in generational terms, you know, I've probably witnessed less than a handful of what I think of as significant transitions in our industry. Whether it was mainframe to PC or PC to mobile or mobile to internet, and now this transition, which I think is really, I think in, you know, progress is the transition to cloud. That's that next big platform, that next big opportunity that I think is going to transform the way not only we deliver capabilities to employees, but the way we think about what technology can actually do for us as organizations. >> Yeah PJ, we've absolutely seen just such a huge acceleration. I've talked to some companies. They were dipping their toe in, and now they've jumped full in because they have to. As you both pointed out, though, security is something we need to really make sure that it's not, okay, I've jumped in and of course, everything's going to be fine. We understand shared responsibility model when we're talking about cloud. PJ, are there tips that you have for companies as to here's what you absolutely should do. And hey, maybe as you're expanding your remote workforce, maybe there's certain things that it's time to retire or rethink of the way you think about security in this aspect. >> I think, you know, the area where I think customers are really starting to focus right now is securing the experience and the devices that they have their employees working on on a day to day basis. That's really where the biggest shift has occurred in their infrastructure. If your applications were in your data center, they probably still are. If they were in the cloud, or from a SaaS vendor, they probably still are. It's the employees and their device that's really moved to a location that requires a rethink around security. And I think there's several approaches that we see customers take. One is, of course, if you own and manage the device that you've given to the employee, you can clearly secure the endpoint. And then from there, you can manage and secure the traffic. And you can secure access to the applications on the back end. In fact, in some ways, that's the, I'd said either the brute force way or the, I think, easiest way for an enterprise to achieve this. The reality is, though, that many enterprises have relied on, employees either leveraging personally owned devices or issuing them with devices that previously they hadn't thought about required that they needed management in the organization. And so this is where some of the technologies that we have at Citrix, where we've moved the security boundary from the physical device, to the workspace itself to the experience. Really allows you to migrate that same security profile across multiple platforms, across multiple endpoints, and still deliver that same experience to the employees. I think that's one from an experience point of view. And then the second one is, we've seen a lot of customers rely very heavily on VPN as an access mechanism to get to corporate resources. And again, I think it's a unfortunately one size doesn't fit all but VPN is is effectively a one size solution. And it is the keys to the kingdom. Once you have access to VPN inside an organization, you have access to everything that an employee I had access to. And so what we see is customers taking maybe a more granular view of how they implement security at the application level, so that they can grant me access to the apps that I need inside the data center infrastructure inside the enterprise infrastructure, but not necessarily all the applications and all the data and all the content. And so I think there are, you know, real technologies that are, you know, in the market today that are available to customers, to really come back and look at maybe some of those brute force solutions that they initially deployed. And now start to layer on maybe more granular and more sophisticated solutions on top of that. That really minimize the security risk, and narrow the exposure to literally just the data that's absolutely required and the applications that are absolutely required. >> You know, I actually want to pick up on this. 'Cause I think this is such a critical point for organizations and this VPN point is a good one. When I was talking about moving from remote light to remote right. VPN isn't enough, if you've given somebody access to the kingdom, what if they happen to be on a compromised device? Well, then you basically just opened, as PJ said, yourself up for bad actors to enter your organization. So, security continues to be a layer cake. It's always been a layer cake. Some people call it a Jenga Tower, same concept. But basically, you have to secure every layer of the stack. You have to secure at the device layer. You have to secure at the application layer, the network transit layer in the cloud. And I think that organizations that are really serious about this, are spending more time and energy trying to figure out where to plug those different gaps. But you can start as an organization, everything from what computing hardware do you buy. You know, does it have a secure route of trust on it? So, that's one thing if you're thinking about buying new equipment. And then you start to layer things like workspace technologies, device management technologies, and all those provide different layers of security up the stack. And sadly, as PJ said, you know, there is no silver bullet. But, we have gotten to a part where it could be easier where you can buy fewer things, but it's still a coordinated effort of tools to make that whole stack secure. >> Alright, the last technology area I want to poke at, is we haven't talked about data yet. You know, there's the opportunity for analytics. You know, and it's a little bit, you know, Maribel maybe start with you. There's the opportunity to really understand, you know, are people leveraging things? Are there problems that maybe they might not report that the system can let me? But you also want to make sure that it's not big brother looking over what we're doing, and there's concern about that. So, what are you seeing out there? Any, you know, emerging trends as to how that work remote right that you talk about can leverage analytics and data? >> So the first thing I think is really important is the fact that you should be looking for technology providers that do collect and provide a certain amount of analytics for you. And then the question is, how detailed do you want that analytics? Do you want that analytics down to a user level? Well, if it turns out to be network performance, that's great. If it turns out to be, you know, every application they've entered, and how much is in, and how much time they spent on that application. Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe you want it to be a little more lightweight. You know, maybe it's something that says, if this application hasn't been used in any period of time, because that's an issue around licensing. Do you need that licensing? But do you need to know if I've been spending, you know, 30 hours a week in Outlook. There's a bit of a privacy dance that we need to do there. There's just because you can doesn't mean you should. But what you really should be talking to your vendors about is, you know, how can I see what the experience is that my employees are having with your service? You know, is it operational? Is it being used? Should it be be optimized in some way? Are there analytics that you can provide me that prevent issues? You know, if there is a slowdown in the network, I need to know that that's going to impact users. If there's an outage in a service, I need to know what the impact is to that user and then maybe be able to predict some of those things before it happens so that we can manage and control that experience. So I think analytics are important. I think you have to really say, okay, what are we trying to achieve with those analytics? And balance the privacy and experience. >> So maybe a couple of comments. We've been investing in our analytics platform before this pandemic struck. And so we've seen quite a significant shift in the use cases that customers are applying those analytics to address. The first one really is for remote workers. The point that Maribel alluded to is, you know, have I delivered as secure an experience as I previously had delivered to my employees who (indistinct) the office, and how do I measure myself against that? And certainly we have the security analytics capability to help organizations understand anomalies in the system. Whether or not they're occurring, you know, inside the data center or on the endpoint device that the employee is using. And so that's one that I think customers are finding very valuable. The secondary is to do with actually the quality of that experience, the performance of that individual experience. And so we're again tracking at the user level, what their experience is like. And we're allowing organizations to have visibility into whether or not, they've actually delivered a usable, you know, high quality experience to all of their employees. Something that I frequently saw IT do by walking into offices and looking over your shoulder as you use an application and saying that's pretty good performance. And now of course, they're relying on remote response from remote employees with, you know, networks that they don't manage. So really, can you get a handle on what that experience is like. So both of those are actually analytic services that are aimed at helping IT deliver a high quality, reliable, secure service. The other area where we are exploring and beginning to see some usage for analytics is actually sharing the insight of usage and patterns of usage with the employee themselves. So while it might not be advisable to record how many hours I spend in a given application and shared that with IT, it might be useful information to share back with the employee themselves, about their pattern of usage of applications. Maybe recommending applications that other people in their team or their work group are using. Maybe recommending content, documents, insights, reports that other people have access to. And so if you start to take a broader look at how that analytics, then understanding of user behavior can get used. You can see that it can not only inform the security posture understanding of the organization, but it can also augment the employees on experience inside the workspace. And personally, that's where I'm most excited about the use of analytics is not so much on the IT side, which I think is quite expected. I think it is the novel and innovative use of analytics to really drive new experiences inside the workspace. >> I think this contextual concept is great, right? So, understanding how you use your services, understanding what your team uses, providing that extra bit of analytics that tries to help you figure out what you should be doing next, how can you optimize your own personal performance and productivity. That's where we start to see the analytics sing and do something different that we didn't do before. So, it learns about me. It predicts things but it also creates, helps me create new new, better employees experiences. >> Yeah, I think my phone is keeps asking me if I want to uninstaller the entire folder of travel apps, because it's been a long time since I've touched those. Look, it's been a really great discussion. If there's one thing we've learned this year is that you need to be open to the new data, and listening to everyone and being able to adjust fast. As we said early on in this whole pandemic, (indistinct) the companies that have gone through digital transformation, they're lucky because the agility that they built into their processes is going to allow them to do that. But as we've seen, many other companies are moving fast. And I think Satya Nadella is the one who said, you know, we did two years worth of, you know, transformation in two months. So, I want to just give you both a final word, you know, final advice for companies as they look at that challenge in front of them as to back to work that we set up at the beginning. PJ, we'll start with you. >> Well, thank you, Stu. I mean be the first thing I'd say is once again how, you know, I've been impressed by the organizations that we work with our customers, and their ability to move quickly to address the immediate problems. I think the good news is that this was a roadmap and a journey that many of their suppliers and vendors, including Citrix, we were on the path to help deliver solutions that are very much aligned with what these organizations are experiencing. So I think it's a great time to engage with organizations like ours and others that are providing these technologies to understand what that roadmap actually looks like. And to really pick the best of what's out there to help organizations, I think, make them more thoughtful and considered and probably long term decisions that they've got to make over the next, you know, six to 12 months that really set them up for success here in the future. I'm very excited because in many ways, I feel like that experience that organizations had of accelerating their two year project through, you know, two months or two weeks. That's a journey that we've been on with those customers. And we are excited by the fact that they've come through that first phase. Lots of people have a lot of things, still to figure out ahead of them. And we're delighted and honored to be engaged with those customers to help them through that. >> So for me, when I talk to customers, I say this is an amazing time to reimagine your business and really focus on what you think your technology and strategic advantage of your business is. Use technology for that. You can build versus buy. Build for the things that are going to create strategic advantage, buy for everything else. >> Maribel and PJ, thank you so much for joining me. Great discussion, lots things for people to think about. And looking forward to watching everybody as they go through their journey in the next steps going back to work. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> And thank you for joining us. I'm Stu Miniman. As always, thank you for watching "theCUBE". (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Coop con and cloud, native con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners >>Welcome back. This is the Cube coverage of Cube Con Cloud, native con, the European show for 2020. I'm your host to Minuteman. And when we talk about the container world, we talk about what's happening in cloud. Native storage has been one of those sticking points. One of those things that you know has been challenging, that we've been looking to mature and really happy to welcome back to the program two of our cube alumni to give us the update on the state of storage for the container world. Both of them are oh, founders and CEOs. First of all, we have Xiang Yang from Rancher Labs, of course, was recently acquired by Sue Save it and the intention to acquire on and also joining us from early the relay. Who is with port works? Shang Amerli. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Alright. So early. I actually I'm going to start with you just cause you know we've seen, you know, a couple of waves of companies working on storage. In this environment, we know storage is difficult. Um, And when we change how we're building things, there's architectural things that can happen. Eso maybe if you could just give us a snapshot, you know, Port works, you know, was created to help unpack this. You know, straight on here in 2020 you know, where you see things in the overall kind of computer storage landscape? >>Absolutely. Still, before I kind of jump into port works. I just want to take a minute to publicly congratulate the the whole rancher team, and and Shang and Shannon And will China have known those folks for a while there? They're kind of true entrepreneurs. They represent the serial entrepreneur spirit that that so many folks know in the valley, and so, you know, great outcome for them. We're very happy for them and ah, big congrats and shout out to the whole team. What works is is a little over five years old, and we've been kind of right from the inception of the company recognized that to put containers in production, you're gonna have to solve, not just the orchestration problem. But the issue of storage and data orchestration and so in a natural kubernetes orchestrates containers and what works orchestrates storage and data. And more specifically, by doing that, what we enable is enterprises to be able to take APS that are containerized into production at scale and and have high availability. Disaster recovery, backup all of the things that for decades I t has had to do and has done to support application, reliability and availability. But essentially we're doing it for purpose with the purpose build solution for containerized workloads. >>Alright, shaming. Of course, storage is a piece of the overall puzzle that that ranchers trying to help with. Maybe if you could just refresh our audience on Longhorn, which your organization has its open source. It's now being managed by the CN. CF is my understanding. So help us bring Longhorn into the discussion >>thanks to. So I'm really glad to be here. We've I think rancher and port work started about the same time, and we started with a slightly different focus. More is exactly right to get containers going, you really need both so that the computer angle orchestrating containers as well as orchestrating the storage and the data. So rancher started with, ah, it's slightly stronger focus on orchestrating containers themselves, but pretty quickly, we realized, as adoption of containers grow, we really need it to be able to handle ah, storage feather. And like any new technology, you know, uh, Kubernetes and containers created some interesting new requirements and opportunities, and at the time, really, they weren't. Ah, a lot of good technologies available, you know, technologies like rook and SEF at the time was very, very premature, I think, Ah, the You know, we actually early on try to incorporate ah, the cluster technology. And it was just it was just not easy. And And at the time I think port Works was, ah, very busy developing. Ah, what turned out to be there flagship product, which we end up, end up, uh, partnering very, very closely. But but early on, we really had no choice but to start developing our own storage technology. So Long horn. As a piece of container storage technology, it's actually almost as oh, there's rancher itself. When about funding engineers, we hired he he ended up, you know, working on it and Then over the years, you know the focus shift that I think the original version was written in C plus plus, and over the years it's now being completely re written in Golan. It was originally written more for Docker workload. Now, of course, everything is kubernetes centric. And last year we you know, we we decided to donate the Longhorn Open Source project to CN CF. And now it's a CN CF sandbox project, and the adoption is just growing really quickly. And just earlier this year, we we finally ah decided to we're ready to offer a commercial support for it. So So that's that's where rancher is. And with longhorn and container storage technology. >>Yeah, it has been really interesting to watch in this ecosystem. A couple of years ago, one of the Q con shows I was talking to people coming out of the Believe It was the Sigs, the special interest group for storage, and it was just like, Wow, it was heated. Words were, you know, back and forth. There's not a lot of agreement there. Anybody that knows the storage industry knows that you know standards in various ways of doing things often are contentious and there's there's differences of opinion. Look at the storage industry. You know, there's a reason why there's so many different solutions out there. So maybe it love to hear from early. From your standpoint, things are coming to get a little bit more. There are still a number of options out there. So you know, why is this kind of coop petition? I actually good for the industry? >>Yeah, I think this is a classic example of Coop petition. Right? Let's let's start with the cooperation part right? The first part of time the you know, the early days of CN, CF, and even sort of the Google Communities team, I think, was really very focused on compute and and subsequent years. In the last 34 years, there's been a greater attention to making the whole stack works, because that's what it's going to take to take a the enterprise class production and put it in, you know, enterprise class application and put it in production. So extensions like C and I for networking and CS I container storage interface. We're kind of put together by a working group and and ah ah you know both both in the CN CF, but also within the kubernetes Google community. That's you talked about six storage as an example. And, you know, as always happens, right? Like it It looks a little bit in the early days. Like like a polo game, right where folks are really? Ah, you know, seemingly, uh, you know, working with each other on on top of the pool. But underneath they're kicking each other furiously. But that was a long time back, and we've graduated from then into really cooperating. And I think it's something we should all be proud of. Where now the CS I interface is really a A really very, very strong and complete solution tow, allowing communities to orchestrate storage and data. So it's really strengthened both communities and the kubernetes ecosystem. Now the competition part. Let's kind of spend. I want to spend a couple of minutes on that too, right? Um, you know, one of the classic things that people sometimes confuse is the difference between an overlay and an interface. CSC is wonderful because it defines how the two layers off essentially kind of old style storage. You know, whether it's a san or ah cloud, elastic storage bucket or all of those interact with community. So the the definition of that interface kind of lay down some rules and parameters for how that interaction should happen. However, you still always need an overlay like Port Works that that actually drives that interface and enables Kubernetes to actually manage that storage. And that's where the competition is. And, you know, she mentioned stuff and bluster and rook and kind of derivatives of those. And I think those have been around really venerable and and really excellent products for born in a different era for a different time open stack, object storage and all of that not really meant for kind of primary workloads. And they've been they've been trying to be adapted for, for for us, for this kind of workload. Port Works is really a built from right from the inception to be designed for communities and for kubernetes workloads at enterprise scale. And so I think, you know, as I as I look at the landscape, we welcome the fact that there are so many more people acknowledging that there is a vital need for data orchestration on kubernetes right, that that's why everybody and their brother now has a CS I interface. However, I think there's a big difference between having an interface. This is actually having the software that provides the functionality for H. A, D R. And and for backup, as as the kind of life cycle matures and doing it not just at scale, but in a way that allows kind of really significant removal or reduction off the storage admin role and replaces it with self service that is fully automated within communities. Yeah, if I >>can, you know, add something that that I completely agree. I mean, over the Longhorns been around for a long time. Like I said, I'm really happy that over the years it hasn't really impacted our wonderful collaborative partnership with what works. I mean, Poll works has always been one of our premier partners. We have a lot of, ah, common customers in this fight. I know these guys rave about what works. I don't think they'll ever get out for works. Ah, home or not? Uh huh. Exactly. Like Morissette, you know, in the in the storage space, there's interface, which a lot of different implementations can plugging, and that's kind of how rancher works. So we always tell people Rancher works with three types of storage implementations. One is let we call legacy storage. You know, your netapp, your DMC, your pure storage and those are really solid. But they were not suddenly not designed to work with containers to start with, but it doesn't matter. They've all written CS I interfaces that would enable containers to take advantage of. The second type is some of the cloud a block storage or file storage services like EBS, GFS, Google Cloud storage and support for these storage back and the CS I drivers practically come with kubernetes itself, so those are very well supported. But there's still a huge amount of opportunities for the third type of you know, we call container Native Storage. So that is where Port Works and the Longhorn and other solutions like open EBS storage OS. All these guys fitting is a very vibrant ecosystem of innovation going on there. So those solutions are able to create basically reliable storage from scratch. You know, when you from from just local disks and they're actually also able to add a lot of value on top of whatever traditional or cloud based, persistent storage you already have. So so the whole system, the whole ecosystem, is developing very quickly. A lot of these solutions work with each other, and I think to me it's really less of a competition or even Coop petition. It's really more off raising the bar for for the capabilities so that we can accelerate the amount of workload that's been moved onto this wonderful kubernetes platform in the end of the benefit. Everyone, >>Well, I appreciate you both laying out some of the options, you know, showing just a quick follow up on that. I think back if you want. 15 years ago was often okay. I'm using my GMC for my block. I'm using my netapp for the file. I'm wondering in the cloud native space, if we expect that you might have multiple different data engine types in there you mentioned you know, I might want port works for my high performance. You said open EBS, very popular in the last CN CF survey might be another one there. So is do we think some of it is just kind of repeating itself that storage is not monolithic and in a micro service architecture. You know, different environments need different storage requirements. >>Yeah, I mean quick. I love to hear more is view as well, especially about you know, about how the ecosystem is developing. But from my perspective, just just the range of capabilities that's now we expect out of storage vendors or data management vendors is just increased tremendously. You know, in the old days, if you can store blocks to object store file, that's it. Right. So now it's this is just table stakes. Then then what comes after that? There will be 345 additional layers of requirements come all the way from backup, restore the our search indexing analytics. So I really think all of this potentially off or in the in the bucket of the storage ecosystem, and I just can't wait to see how this stuff will play out. I think we're still very, very early stages, and and there, you know what? What, what what containers did is they made fundamentally the workload portable, but the data itself still holds a lot of gravity. And then just so much work to do to leverage the fundamental work load portability. Marry that with some form of universal data management or data portability. I think that would really, uh, at least the industry to the next level. Marie? >>Yeah. Shanghai Bean couldn't. Couldn't have said it better. Right? Let me let me let me kind of give you Ah, sample. Right. We're at about 160 plus customers now, you know, adding several by the month. Um, just with just with rancher alone, right, we are. We have common customers in all common video expedient Roche March X, Western Asset Management. You know, charter communications. So we're in production with a number off rancher customers. What are these customers want? And why are they kind of looking at a a a Port works class of solution to use, You know, Xiang's example of the multiple types, right? Many times, people can get started with something in the early days, which has a CS I interface with maybe say, $10 or 8 to 10 nodes with a solution that allows them to at least kind of verify that they can run the stack up and down with, say, you know, a a rancher type orchestrator, workloads that are containerized on and a network plug in and a storage plugging. But really, once they start to get beyond 20 notes or so, then there are problems that are very, very unique to containers and kubernetes that pop up that you don't see in a in a non containerized environment, right? Some. What are some of these things, right? Simple examples are how can you actually run 10 to hundreds of containers on a server, with each one of those containers belonging to a different application and having different requirements? How do you actually scale? Not to 16 nodes, which is sort of make typically, maybe Max of what a San might go to. But hundreds and thousands of notes, like many of our customers, are doing like T Mobile Comcast. They're running this thing at 600 thousands of notes or scale is one issue. Here is a critical critical difference that that something that's designed for Kubernetes does right. We are providing all off the storage functions that Shang just described at container granted, granularity versus machine granularity. One way to think about this is the old Data center was in machine based construct. Construct everything you know. VM Ware is the leader, sort of in that all of the way. You think of storage as villains. You think of compute and CPUs, everything. Sub sub nets, right? All off. Traditional infrastructure is very, very machine centric. What kubernetes and containers do is move it into becoming an app defined control plane, right? One of the things were super excited about is the fact that Kubernetes is really not just a container orchestrator, but actually a orchestrator for infrastructure in an app defined way. And by doing that, they have turned, uh, you know, control off the infrastructure via communities over to a kubernetes segment. The same person who uses rancher uses port works at NVIDIA, for example to manage storage as they use it, to manage the compute and to manage containers. And and that's marvellous, because now what has happened is this thing is now fully automated at scale and and actually can run without the intervention off a storage admin. No more trouble tickets, right? No more requests to say, Hey, give me another 20 terabytes. All of that happens automatically with the solution like port works. And in fact, if you think about it in the world of real time services that we're all headed towards right Services like uber now are expected in enterprises machine learning. Ai all of these things analytics that that change talk about are things that you expect to run in a fully automated way across vast amounts of data that are distributed sometimes in the edge. And you can't do that unless you're fully automated and and not really the storage admin intervention. And that's kind of the solution that we provide. >>Alright, well, we're just about out of time. If I could just last piece is, you know, early and saying to talk about where we are with long for and what we should expect to see through the rest of this year and get some early for you to you know, what differentiates port works from Just, you know, the open source version. So And maybe if we start with just kind of long or in general and then really from from your standpoint, >>yeah, so it's so so the go along one is really to lower the bar for folks to run state for workloads on on kubernetes we want you know, the the Longhorn is 100% open source and it's owned by CN cf now. So we in terms of features and functionalities is obviously a small subset of what a true enterprise grade solution like Port Works or, um, CEO on that that could provide. So there's just, you know, the storage role. Ah, future settle. The roadmap is very rich. I don't think it's not really Ranchers go Oh, our Longhorns goal to, you know, to try to turn itself into a into a plug in replacement for these enterprise, great storage or data management solutions. But But they're you know, there's some critical critical feature gaps that we need address. And that's what the team is gonna be focusing on, perhaps for the rest of the year. >>Yeah, uh, still, I would I would kind of, you know, echo what Chang said, right? I think folks make it started with solutions, like longer or even a plug in connector plug in with one of their existing storage vendors, whether it's pure netapp or or EMC from our viewpoint, that's wonderful, because that allows them to kind of graduate to where they're considering storage and data as part of the stack. They really should that's the way they're going to succeed by by looking at it as a whole and really with, You know, it's a great way to get started on a proof of concept architecture where your focus initially is very much on the orchestration and the container ization part. But But, as Xiang pointed out, you know what what rancher did, what I entered it for Kubernetes was build a simple, elegant, robust solution that kind of democratized communities. We're doing the same thing for communities storage right? What Port works does is have a solution that is simple, elegant, fully automated, scalable and robust. But more importantly, it's a complete data platform, right? We we go where all these solutions start, but don't kind of venture forward. We are a full, complete lifecycle management for data across that whole life cycle. So there's many many customers now are buying port works and then adding deal right up front, and then a few months later they might come back and I'd backup from ports. So two shanks point right because of the uniqueness of the kubernetes workload, because it is an app defined control plane, not machine to find what is happening is it's disrupting, Just like just like virtualization day. VM exist today because because they focused on a VM version off. You know, the their backup solution. So the same thing is happening. Kubernetes workloads are district causing disruption of the D r and backup and storage market with solutions like sports. >>Wonderful. Merlin Chang. Thank you so much for the updates. Absolutely. The promise of containers A Z you were saying? Really, is that that Atomic unit getting closer to the application really requires storage to be a full and useful solution. So great to see the progress that's being made. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Welcome, Shannon. We look forward to ah, working with you as you reach for the stars. Congratulations again. We look >>forward to the containing partnership morally and thank you. Still for the opportunity here. >>Absolutely great talking to both of you And stay tuned. Lots more coverage of the Cube Cube Con cloud, native con 2020 Europe. I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> Announcer: From around the globe, it's theCUBE. With digital coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services. >> Hi, I'm Stu Miniman, and welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of the AWS Public Sector Partner Awards. We're going to be digging in. This award is for the most customer obsessed migration and happy to welcome to the program two first time guests coming to us from India. First of all, from the partner with Tech Mahindra, we have Gautam Chatterjee. He is the vice president with Tech Mahindra, who's the winner of the award, and they've brought along their customer for this, that is Satyendra Gupta, who is the director of the CPWD, which is the Central Public Works Department, part of the government of India. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. >> Thank you. >> All right, if we could, let's start with just a quick summary of what your organizations do. Gautam, we'll start with you. Tech Mahindra, I think most of our audience, you know, should be aware, you know, large, very well known organization. Congratulations to you and the team on the win. Tell us what your part of Tech Mahindra does. >> Okay. So, Tech Mahindra is a five billion dollar organization, and it's a part of Mahindra and Mahindra. Which is approximately at $22 billion evaluation worldwide. So, Tech Mahindra is primarily into IT services and consulting services for the information technology and information technology related works across the globe. We have got multiple offices, almost around 90 locations across the country, and we have gotten to operations worldwide in different verticals and different geographies. So, as a part of Tech Mahindra, I manage the central government that is the public sector business for Tech Mahindra, based out of New Delhi, in India. And we handle the complete large public sector organizations and different ministries which are coming into the government of India. >> Wonderful! Satyendra, obviously public works, relatively self explanatory, but, tell us a little bit about your organization, your roll, and, if you could, introduce the project that your group worked with Tech Mahindra on. >> Okay, so, Central Public Works Department is a 165 year old organization that was aided by large technology. In 1854 was when this organization started working. The primary responsibility of this organization is to build the consistent works of the government of India. Primarily in the buildings sector. We see predominantly, Tech Mahindra will see predominantly you aiding the department, is that technical add-on to the government of India regarding these concepts and matters. Right, so, this department is spread across the country, from north, and in the south, Kerala. And from Gujarat in the west to another place in the east. This department has departments across the country. We had to use, with all tech with all the top companies we had thought (indistinct) is that only the building but we created and perfected from the government of India, like, the stadiums. That is not so many, wanted something that would have been very useful regarding the tsunami. Tsunami came so the government, the projects we picked up would be constantly small houses that we'd have to give it to. And CPWD, using the info technology since long, but we have it all along (indistinct) in value. Now, last year, it had been decided that we would implement the IT system in the CPWD very hard softwares and will be implementing a single use form, and everything will be connected to each other, too. So, this is what the internet for part of the implementation is. As far as myself is concerned, I am in charge of the implementation of this year for the system in the department. From it's inception to the end, and detailing the whole of the process until all the onboarding of the Tech Mahindra, and the implementation of. And then, from there after waiting a minute to, in the department to make it adaptable, we tell everybody. These are the roles that I have. >> All right, Gautam, if you could, migration's obviously a big part of what I expect Tech Mahindra is helping customers with. Help frame up, you know, the services that you're doing, talk a little bit, if you could, the underlying AWS component of it, and, you know, specifically, give us a little bit about Tech Mahindra's role in the public works project that we were just talking about. >> Okay. So, coming to the relationship and the journey which you have started for the CPWD project, it's around a year, year and a half work when you have started interacting with CPWD. By understanding their business challenges and the business department, which is primarily automating the whole processes. And there are multiple applications, multiple processes which they wanted to automate. Now, definitely once their automation comes into the picture, you have to take place the complete automation of the applications, the complete automations of the infrastructure, and the complete automations of the UI part of it. That is the user perceptions, user interface, right? So, all three has been covered by this company to automation process. As a part of the system integrations business, our main objective is to plan and bring the respective OEMs, who are the best of the great, our technology providers, to bring them to utilize those platforms, and to utilize those course applications, so that, by utilizing those technologies and applications, we can automate the complete process and provide the complete drill down management view to CPWD for their inter-operations and application. In the process of doing that, what we have done, we have brought in SAP as an ace for HANA implementation, which is the primary business applications which will be implemented in CPWD. The inter-user log-in and user interface will be done through a portal, and that portal will be utilizing the Liferay user portal, which will be the front end user interface. There will be an eTendering application, which will be also through one of my large general partners, who will be working together for us for the eTendering applications, which is also a part of ours, and 40 of the whole automation process. And inter-application, eTendering, the portal, and all the applications, as a matter of fact, will be hosted to the cloud on AWS platform. Now, once you're talking about the AWS platform, that means it will implement the complete infrastructure of the service, and the complete platform as a service. So, all the computed storage, everything will be deploying from the AWS cloud, and necessarily all the platform in terms of your database applications, all third-party tools to do the performance testing, management, monitoring. Everything will be provided as a platform of the service by AWS. So, we, engaged AWS from the beginning itself, the AWS team, and SMP team, both major OEMs worked with us very hand and gloves from day one. And we had multiple interactions with the customer. We understood the challenges. We understood the number of users, number of iterations, number of redundancy, number of high, I mean, the kind of high availability they will require in times of the business difficulty of the applications, and based on which, together, along with AWS, Tech Mahindra, and SAP, all three of us together, and I have the complete solutions, architecture, and the optimizations of the whole solutions, so that overall impact comes to CPWD as the customer, the ultimate results, and the business output they deserve. You know? So, that is where we actually interacted. We have got the interactions with AWS solutions team, AWS architect team, along with our interface architect and the solutions team, who worked very closely along with the customers, them desizing so that it exactly matches the requirement not only for today, down the line for the next four years, because the complete implementation cycle is 18 months, and after that, Tech Mahindra is a prime service provider. We'll provide the four years after implementation support to CPWD, because we all understand that any government department, they need government understanding. These kind of business applications implementation is a transformation. Now, this transformation definitely cannot happen overnight. It has to happen through a process, through a cycle, and through a phase, because there will be the users who will be the proactive users who will start using the inter-applications from the beginning, and, gradually, the more and more success, the more and more user friendliness will come into the whole picture. Then, participation for multiple users, multiple stakeholders will come on board. The moment that comes in, the users load, the user's participation and user's load, both into the platforms, both into the infrastructure will keep on changing, keep on increasing, and that is why our role will be how to manage the complete infrastructure, how to manage the complete platform throughout the journey of this transformation of five and a half years. And that is what the exact role as a prime and large MSP Tech Mahindra will perform for the next five and a half years along with AWS, along with CPWD, and along with SAP. (coughs) >> All right, well, Satyendra, Gautam just laid out, I think, a lot of the reasons why they won the customer obsessed award from AWS on this. You know, I think back to earlier in my career and you talk about NSAP rollout, and it's not only the length of time that it takes for the rollout, and the finance involved, but what Gautam was talking about is the organizational impact and adoptions. So, I would love to hear from your side. You know, what were the goals that you had coming into this? It sounds like getting greater adoption inside the organization for using these services. Give us your insight as to, you know, how that roll-out has been going, the goals you had, how you're meeting them, any success metrics that you use internally to talk about how the project has gone so far. >> We implement the Atlas System in the CPWD, the activities going on since a long time. It was more than one and a half years had been passed, we have angers, one of them concerning our ideas and the way we transform our business processes. They have some certain ideas and that the app implementation is the last one. Most of them have been implemented and we have started, started to get ideas to implement some, but we had bad interactions with all the leading IT service providers in the country, along with all the leading cloud service providers in the country, and this, of course, all the leading EIP services, OEMs, EIP, OEMs, so and so. But, it's a long journey, we have a trial approximately half of the deadline from there. To inform returning process, Tech Mahindra has been appointed as the system integrator and they have come with all the sorts of the services that they are offering, for example, they plan to use SAP, and EIP will be in there, as well. This "one life" system for the portal, eTendering, is a primary credit, has been done. And overall everything has been hosted on the AWS cloud platform. So, it's just that, when could we have. And, everybody knows that Amazon is the leading cloud service provider with the largest of the facilities available with us, so, during this journey, we have got lots of support from the AWS via lots of the credit regarding us to get it set up with the AWS team, and continuously boosted our office and explained each of our queries on this, and now, from the march onwards, Tech Mahindra has started the implementation process we are in. More than four months have been passed since then. And we have covered a lot. The whole objective of this implementation is all our activities will be done on this EIP system, only that if somebody is working in the CPWD, you will activate that. Work in the CPWD on the EIP, or you will not be able to work at all. This is a light goal and whole system. But, all of our system is going to be automatic. Earlier, we were having a different idea because when we were working in the silos, everything we wanted to be integrated with each other, and the time that will be invested to make the entry of the different activity at a different time and with the applications, applicants are not talking to each other, they are working in the silos, but that will go away. So, what we are expecting everything will be on the EIP system, as well, and we are expecting the efficiency of the CPWD unit is going to be increased tremendously. Apart from this, they will handle a more number of the works compared to what they were handling and the time in it since. And everything will revolved around the click of the buttons and we need not to go and ask from anybody to give the reports, et cetera. So, problem management must peak, too. By the click of the button, we will also be able to get all the inputs, all the reports with what is going on across the country. And that idea. So, it is going to be really a transformation to the working of the department, and, in whole, the entire public work center of this country is going to be benefited out of this. This has been like a lighthouse today. This EIP implemented in the CPWD is the lighthouse up ahead, so there are more than 30 public work departments, said public work departments are working, so this is going to create and open a window for everybody there. Once it is a success of this implementation, we'll have it far reaching implication on the implementation of that EIP system or a similar idea for implications in the public works or in the whole country. So, so, there's lots of these stakes our there. To any and, hopefully, with the help of Tech Mahindra, with the help of SAP, AWS, and Amazon, one day they will be able to implement successfully and we will, we are going to get the benefit out of. Everybody is going benefit, not only the Central Public Works Department, but all of our stakeholders. All the stakeholders in terms of businesses, in terms of their reach to the Public Works, and there is a new door to open because the IT had not been leveraged the way in the Public Works Department in the central department or the state government. The other IT system hadn't used EIP. It is going, it's a lighthouse headed to success. We'll have a far reaching implication for everybody. >> Well, I tell you, Satyendra, that's been the promise of cloud, that we should be able to do something, and the scalability and repeatability is something that we should be able to go. Gautam, I want to give you the final word on this. You know, speak to how does cloud, how do we enable this to be able to scale throughout many groups within the organization without having to be, you know, as much work, you know. I think about traditional IT, it's, well, okay, I spend a project, I spend so much time on it, and then every time I need to repeat it, I kind of, you know, have that same amount of work. The, you know, labor should go down as we scale out in a cloud environment. Is that, what you feel, the case? You know, help us understand how this lighthouse account will expand. >> Okay. So, any cloud, you know, have initiative nowadays into any organization. It depends. It primarily benefits in both the ways. Number one, the organization doesn't require to invest up front on the capital expenditure part of it. That's very important. Number two, the organization has got the flexibility to scale up and scale down based on the customer requirements. Within a click of the mouse. It doesn't take any time. Because the inter-positioning of the infrastructure is available with the cloud infrastructure service provider. And, similarly, the scaling of the platforms, that's also available with the cloud infrastructure provider. So, once you do the complete mapping requirement and the sizing for the entire tenure of the project, then the provisioning and deprovisioning is not a matter of time, it can happen with a click of mouse. That's number one. Number two, it's become a challenging activity for any government organization to have their own IT set-up. To manage such a huge, mammoth task of the entire infrastructure, applications, services, troubleshooting, 24 by 7, everything. So, that's not expected from the large government organizations, as such, because that's not their business. Their business is to run the country, their business to run the organization, their business to grow the country's different ideas. And, the IT services organizations, like Tech Mahindra, is there to support those kind of automation processes. And, the platforms which are available on the cloud nowadays, that's the ease of inter-applications, inter-management, monitoring, availability of the entire infrastructure, that makes use of the whole, complete system. So, it all works together. It's not a thing that the system integration organizations already will do the all new reform. It has to happen in synergies. So, application has to work together, infrastructure has to be available together, the management, monitoring has to happen, scaling up, scaling down has to happen, all kinds of updates, upgrades, and badges down the line for the company, continuing of the whole contract has to happen so that the system, once up and running and benefited, it's performing at least for a period of the next five years, as the tenure of the contract, in multiple department happens. Now, what Mr. Gupta was saying, it's very very true that CPWD is the kind of motherly organizations for all public works departments in the country. And, all the public works departments in the country are eagerly looking at this project. Now, it is very important for all of us, not only for Tech Mahindra, Tech Mahindra, SAP, Liferay, and AWS, together, to work and make this project as a success, because it is not a reason that, as a simple customer, this project has to be successful. It's a flexible project for the government of India, and it's been monitored by Didac Lee, the government of India officials, and top ranking bodies on a day in and day out basis, number one. Number two, if we become successful together in this project, there will be an avenue for what Satyendra Gupta has said. That all state PWDs will be open to everybody. They will try and adopt, and they will try and implement a similar kind of system to all the respective states in the country. So it's a huge opportunity in terms of technology enhancement, automations, infrastructure, applications, and moreover, as a service provider, to provide the services to all these bodies, together, which, I feel, it's a huge huge opportunity for all of us together, and we are confident that we will work together, hand in gloves, the way we have done from the day one of this initiative, and we'll take it forward. >> All right, well Satyendra, thank you so much for sharing the details of your project, wish you the best of luck with that going forward. And, Gautam, congratulations again to Tech Mahindra for winning the most customer obsessed migration solution. Thank you both for joining. >> Both: Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> All right, and thank you for joining. I'm Stu Miniman, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS Public Sector Partner Awards. Thanks for watching. >> Gautam: Thank you very much. (bright upbeat music)

>> Narrator: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2019. Brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Intel, along with it's ecosystem partners. >> Welcome back, about 65,000 here in attendance, at AWS re:Invent 2019. You're watching theCUBE, and I am Stu Miniman, the host for this seg, and happy to welcome back to our program two of our CUBE alumni. Sitting to my right is Abby Fuller, who is the principal technologist for containers and Linux, with Amazon Web Services. Sitting to her right is Deepak Singh, Vice President of Compute Services, also with AWS. Thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thanks for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Stu: All right, so as I said, both of you have been on the program, and boy your team's been busy. I mean, one of the things I love, first of all, there is a roadmap for many of the things that are going on. So, we do understand what's happen in the future, but, Deepak, maybe just tell us a little bit about your group and kind of the main focus, and let's start there. >> Deepak: So, my group goes beyond containers. It includes things like Linux systems, our high performance computing organization. But for the purposes of re:Invent, let's stick to the containers org. The containers org owns all of AWS's containerized products. So that includes ECS, EKS, Fargate. We also own our service mesh offering, which is App Mesh. So the way I like to think about it is, it's the right way to build applications in the modern era group, and it's a team that stays quite busy, because this is such a hot space to be in. >> Stu: All right, so we're going to talk mostly about containers, but your shirt is talking about the Linux piece. Tell us what your shirt says. >> Deepak: Ahh, yes, this is the only right way to spell AMI. Unfortunately, my previous, when I was in New York, Corey was at the table interviewing me, and I wore this just for him. >> Stu: So, so, so, if it is AMI, then we're going to spend some time talking about EKS. >> Yes. (Abby chuckling) >> And Esses. >> Yes, which one? (Deepak laughing) We will figure that. For AWS is AWS, I think, is how we will do it. So, absolutely, we're not going to talk about ontological arguments in there. But, Abby, a whole lot of new services in the container space. I want to put a pin and put Fargate to aside for a second. >> Abby: Sure. >> Cause lots of things we want to dig into there. But a lot of other things have been announced, in like the last month or so. Maybe, give us a little bit of a view. >> Yeah, I think a couple big ones for us. So, Fargate and Spot, so run on spare Fargate Capacity for up to a 70% discount off of standard Fargate pricing. (mumbling) things like vulnerability image for scanning for images on ECR. We launched, over the last few days as re:Invent, a capacity providers for ECS, which let's you run, split your traffic between on-demand and spot instances in the same cluster. We also launched something called Cluster Auto Scaler. So, some finer-grained control over how your cluster scales in on ECS. >> Stu: All right, want to take a quick step back. So , Fargate, announced a couple of years ago. >> Deepak: Yep. >> Was only first supported on ECS. Definitely, I've talked to lots of customers, very excited about it. >> Deepak: Yep. >> Maybe talk to us a little bit about how Fargate fits in the whole container discussion. >> Deepak: Yeah. >> And we'll hit with the news. >> Yeah, and, actually, a good way to think about it is from a native US standpoint. If you're a customer running containers, the way we think about our services is: You need a place to store those containers, so that's ECR. You could use your own registry, you could pick a third party one, that's fine. But most of our customers just use ECR. Then you pick your containers carrier. That's either ECS or EKS depending on your preferences. And then you need to figure out where you want to run your containers. And, of course, when we launched ECS five years ago, at re:Invent, there was only one way to do it: On EC2 instances. And two years ago, we added in what in our mind is a cloud native natural way to run containers, which is Fargate. So Fargate serves as a runtime compute engine for containers, and you can pick your scheduler on top of it, and go make hay with your applications. So that's kind of how we think the hierarchy works, and it works pretty well for most customers. They'll start off often with EC2 and move to Fargate over time or mix and match, and it's kind of fascinating to see how many customers of ours have decided they want to be all-in on Fargate. Which is a great place to be for us. >> Stu: Okay, but the big news which actually got a good cheer in the key note yesterday, is Fargate for EKS. So what's the importance of this? >> Yeah I think (mumbling) I think it's saying we've been talking to customers about for a while and it's the ability to run your Kubernetes pods on Fargate Capacity. I think it's really speaking to folks love Kubernetes as a tool and as a community, but it can be a pretty significant lift operationally. And with Fargate they can use APIs that they want or the open source tooling that they want but they don't have to worry about provisioning and managing that EC2 capacity. >> Stu: All right, so Deepak I actually was having a conversation with a good AWS customer, yesterday, and he said he actually started out on Kubernetes before EKS existed, on AKS. And migrated over to AWS when EKS became available. And he said Fargate really interests me, but one of the main reasons he does Kubernetes is he wants to have some portability, has some concerns that, he knows what services he uses and how if he needed to move something there, what do you say to customer that says Fargate's interesting me, but I'm concerned I'm going to get locked in if I buy into this model. >> I would say that he shouldn't worry about it, because of two reasons: maybe more than two. One is: the unit in Fargate that you interact with and work on is the same unit that you interact and work on with Kubernetes in general. Which is the Kubernetes pod. It's the broadspec, it's just a pod, no difference. You can take that same pod and run it on Timbuktu cloud and it will still run. So that's part one. The other one is that he's using the same tools, he's using coup CDL. And in fact you can mix and match your Kubernetes casters. You can run 95% of the application on Fargate, and five percent of it on EC2. All they are doing is changing the part annotation, and if you decide you want to run none of it on Fargate, you just flip that and suddenly everything is running on EC2 capacity. So actually think there's that much to worry about, because it's just the same pod. It's still the same tooling, the operational model is a lot simpler. >> So Abby, we've talked to you at DockerCon, and KubeCon, simplicity is not the word that we hear when we talk about this whole container space. >> Abby: Sure. >> Traditionally. How are we doing overall? I mean, I'm watching the community here, and it's like, wait, Fargate sounds cool but where's my persistent volumes? You know, where are we in, you know give us a little bit of the road map as to where we are to make this, you know, simple and managing more of my environment. >> Yeah, I think the way that I like to look at it, right, is that we've spent, and it's not just us, but we spent a lot of time looking at things like patterns and abstractions that help make these work flows easier for developers. And I think one of the launches that's interesting in that vein is the ECS CLI version two, which we launched a few days ago. And that will help you deploy like a production ready containerized application. It'll help you with the CICD angle, it'll help you with the monitoring and the observability. So I think it's about abstracting away, and adding patterns on top to make some of these common operations and work flows really modular and repeatable, and extendable. And then it's about having the ability to customize where I need to. So being able to run on Fargate, but also to use work loads running on EC2 where I need to, and being able to mix and match, and to focus my energy where I really get any benefit from customizing, rather than having to do the whole thing from the ground up. >> Stu: You know, feedback I've gotten from my friends and the app dev community, is that hybrid is more and more becoming a standard deployment model. Obviously things like outposts and some of the other solutions from Amazon are extending the AWS model of doing things, but many of them also look at just Kubernetes, >> Deepak: Yep >> as a layer to do that. How should we be thinking of this from your solutions? >> Deepak: Yeah, so I thought without both, though, if you noticed in Andy's announcement yesterday, among the list of services available on day one were ECS and EKS. And actually app meshes well weren't on the list, but app meshes available on our post on day one as well. I think when we think about customers who want to run and stay in their own capacity and their own data centers, because EKS is built on (mumbling) Kubernetes with no modifications, the same application, as long as they're running on upstream Kubernetes, on their side, will just run on EKS. And there's a number of models that work there. A great model is the kind that SisCo is running, where they will manage it for you in both places. They become the first person you call, and on AWS it's just EKS. And on premise (mumbling) it's what SisCo has decided to build. Our pro-serf team will also help you by example. So I think there's a number of modes that work there but the key part, and it's the reason why we have stayed with (mumbling) stream Kubernetes, is we never want to make someone say, oh we can't use EKS because they're (mumbling). Somehow modified Kubernetes, and I think that is super important for us. >> Stu: Yeah, I mean Abby I know you're an active participant in the community, what do you say to people that look at Amazon, Deepak you talked a little bit about Fargate. You don't need to be concerned to the same images, so speak a little bit, maybe if you could, to Amazon's community participation, and what you're generally hearing from your customers. >> Abby: Yeah, so I think the root of it right is that we're all building with the same building blocks. I think something that Amazon has been really strong at is open sourcing primitive. So, Firecracker last year, I think was a good example. And we, I think we do really well with saying we built this to solve a problem for us, but we think you might want it too. And in terms of community support, we have been open sourcing more over the last year, we open source our road maps in November last year. We run developer previews off the GitHub road map, App Mesh has a public preview channel as well, so we've been trying to involve the community participation earlier and earlier in our product development life cycle, so that, especially with things like service mesh, where it's really pretty new, we can make sure that we have the voice of all our users and our customers, and there, as early as possible. But to get their hands on keyboards to try it out as soon as they can. >> Deepak: And actually a great example of that is, a word that Weave Works has done. Talking about people who can run Kubernetes on AWS and on premises, they have this project called "Weave Ignite" where they're basically running Kubernetes on Firecracker on premises. And then on AWS a customer just runs on EKS, as an example. And that, I think that part has been not everybody realizes that this is possible. But I think the fact that people are doing it is, excites us a lot. >> Stu: All right, I know you're both meeting with a lot of customers this week, maybe Deepak start with you. Any surprises or any misconceptions other than I know there a lot of people wearing teal shirts, with a certain pronunciation. But bring us inside some of the mind set of your customers here. >> Deepak: So actually, our conversation is very consistent. I think the community as a whole, our customer base has a whole, they all want to get to the same place. How can we move really quickly? How can we give our developers the ability to be more productive? Without putting our company at risk, having the right level of governance? Having the right controls, in place? And I think that's mainly consistent theme across the board. I guess the one thing that would be hard to remind people of a little bit, is a lot of people often think Fargate sits on top of ECS and EKS, it sits below that, and actually the fact that now there is an EKS Fargate, people understand that more quickly. Before that it was a little trickier. But other than that, I think our customers almost all. They come from different places, have very similar problems, they want developers to move quickly and develop deliver business value, and platform engineering teams that we speak to want to figure out how to get out of the way. And that's been great! >> It's interesting, Abby, I love your view point from the developer community Andy talked on stage about very much, to do true transformation, there needs to be the leadership driving things down. I'm curious what you're seeing, customers you're talked to, people you had, cause many of these tools we're talking about, you know, started in the developer world. >> Yeah, I mean there's been, like an increasing amount of curiosity around the cultural side of it. So how can I get my team to work like that? How can I get my team to ship more safely, more quickly, but getting operations out of the way? And I think you see more and more interest in that. So how can we build the tools that work the way our developers do? So we get all the thing that we want, so security and compliance and availability. The developers get what they want, which is easy work flows that match the way they want to work. So you see a lot of curiosity around that. So how do we get to the place where we can run everything on Fargate, and benefit from all the new serverless, severless style (mumbling). >> Stu: All right, real quick just give you the final word. Any websites, or events, or things that people should know when they want to learn more and get engaged? >> Yeah, I think I'd send people first and foremost to the GitHub public road maps. It is the easiest, fastest way to let us hear your voice, and what you want to see us build next. I think especially these next couple weeks coming out of re:Invent, as people start to get their hands on what we announced, think I'm really curious for them to take that back, and then be like, this is great, but here's what I want to see next. And I'd love to see that happen on the road maps. >> Yeah, about a month or so ago, maybe a couple months, we started a dedicated blog for containers on AWS site. One of the nice things about it is a lot of the contributors to that blog site are principal engineers, and engineers in our organization. For example, one of our, the principal engineers in my org are Malcolm Featonby, has a whole blog post on how should to think about scaling and best practices. I think I would encourage people who've now seen what we have, all the new services we're developing, and that's where you'll get the details on how you can use them, how we built them, and I encourage everybody to go to that blog site and check out what we're doing. >> Stu: All right, Deepak, Abby, congratulation to you and your team, great progress, and really appreciate (mumbling) are able to look at the road map, and definitely hope to catch up with you both soon. >> Abby: Thanks so much! >> Thank you so much. >> Stu: All right, I'm Stu Miniman, and back with much more, right in a second, thank for watching theCube. (Techno music)

>>from New York. It's the Q covering Escape. 19. >>Welcome back to the Cube coverage here in New York City for the first inaugural multi cloud conference called Escape, where in New York City was staying in New York, were not escaping from New York were in New York. It's all about multi Cloud, and we're here. Lisa Marie Nancy, developer advocate for Port Works, and Eric Conn, vice president of Products Works. Welcome back. Q. >>Thank you, John. Good to see >>you guys. So, um, whenever the first inaugural of anything, we want to get into it and find out why. Multi clouds certainly been kicked around. People have multiple clouds, but is there really multi clouding going on? So this seems to be the theme here about setting the foundation, architecture and data of the two kind of consistent themes. What shared guys take Eric, What's your take on this multi cloud trend? Yeah, >>I think it's something we've all been actively watching for a couple years, and suddenly it is becoming the thing right? So every we just had ah, customer event back in Europe last week, and every customer there is already running multi cloud. It's always something on their consideration. So there's definitely it's not just a discussion topic. It's now becoming a practical reality. So this event's been perfect because it's both the sense of what are people doing, What are they trying to achieve and also the business sense. So it's definitely something that is not necessarily mainstream, but it's becoming much more how they're thinking about building all their applications. Going forward, >>you know, you have almost two camps in the world. Want to get your thoughts on this guy's Because, like you have cloud native and people that are cloud native, they love it. They born the cloud that get it. Everything's cracking along. The developers air on Micro Service's They're agile train with their own micro service's. Then you got the hybrid I t. Trying to be hybrid developer, right? So you kind of have to markets coming together. So to me, I see multi cloud as kind of a combination of old legacy Data center types of I t with cloud native, not just ops and dead. But how about like trying to build developer teams inside enterprises? This seems to be a big trend, and multi club fits into that because now the reality is that I got azure. I got Amazon. Well, let's take a step back and think about the architecture. What's the foundation? So that to me, is more my opinion. But I want to get your thoughts and reactions that because if it's true, that means some new thinking has to come around around. What's the architecture? What are you trying to do? What's the workloads behavior outcome look like? What's the work flows? So there's a whole nother set of conversations that happened. >>I agree. I think the thing that the fight out there right now that we want to make mainstream is that it's a platform choice, and that's the best way to go forward. So it's still an active debate. But the idea could be I want to do multi club, but I'm gonna lock myself into the Cloud Service is if that's the intent or that's the design architecture pattern. You're really not gonna achieve the goals we all set out to do right, So in some ways we have to design ourselves or have the architecture that will let us achieve the business schools that were really going for and that really means from our perspective or from a port works perspective. There's a platform team. That platform team should run all the applications and do so in a multi cloud first design pattern. And so from that perspective, that's what we're doing from a data plan perspective. And that's what we do with Kubernetes etcetera. So from that idea going forward, what we're seeing is that customers do want to build a platform team, have that as the architecture pattern, and that's what we think is going to be the winning strategy. >>Thank you. Also, when you have the definition of cod you have to incorporate, just like with hybrid I t the legacy applications. And we saw that you throughout the years those crucial applications, as we call them People don't always want them to refer to his legacy. But those are crucial applications, and our customers were definitely thinking about how we're gonna run those and where is the right places it on Prem. We're seeing that a lot too. So I think when we talk about multi cloud, we also talk about what What is in your legacy? What is it? Yeah, I >>like I mean I use legacy. I think it's a great word because I think it really puts nail in the coffin of that old way because remember, if you think about some of the large enterprises, these legacy applications, they've been optimized for hardware and optimize their full stack. They've been build up from the ground up, so they're cool. They're running stuff, but it doesn't always translate to see a new platform designed point. So how do you mean Containers is great fit for their Cooper names. Obviously, you know is the answer. We you guys see that as well, but okay, I can keep that and still get this design point. So I guess what I want to ask you guys, as you guys are digging into some of the customer facing conversations, what are they talking about? The day talking about? The platform? Specifically? Certainly, on the security side, we're seeing everyone running away from buying tools to thinking about platforms. What's the conversation like on the cloud side >>way? Did a talk are multiplied for real talk at Barcelona? Q. Khan put your X three on Sudden. Andrew named it for reals of Izzy, but we really wanted to talk about multiplied in the real world. And when we said show of hands in Barcelona, who's running multi cloud? It was very, very few. And this was in, what, five months? Four months ago? Whereas maybe our customers are just really super advanced because of our 100 plus customers. At four words, we Eric is right. A lot of them are already running multi cloud or if not their plan, in the planning stage right now. So even in the last +56 months, this has become a reality. And we're big fans of communities. I don't know if you know Eric was the first product manager for Pernetti. Hey, he's too shy to say it on Dhe. So yeah, and we think, you know, and criminal justice to be the answer to making all They caught a reality right now. >>Well, I want to get back into G, K, E and Cooper. Very notable historic moment. So congratulations, But to your point about multi cloud, it's interesting because, you know, having multiple clouds means things, right? So, for instance, if I upgrade to office 3 65 and I kill my exchange server, I'm essentially running azure by their definition. If I'm building it, stack on AWS. I'm a native, this customer. Let's just say I want to do some tensorflow or play with big table or spanner on Google. Now >>we have three >>clouds now they're not. So they have work clothes, specific objectives. I am totally no problem. I see that like for the progressive customers, some legacy be to be people who like maybe they put their toe in the cloud. But anyone doing meaningful cloud probably has multiple clouds. But that's workload driven when you get into tying them together and is interesting. And I think that's where I think you guys have a great opportunity in this community because if open source convene the gateway to minimize the lock in and when I say lock and I mean like locking them propriety respect if his value their great use it. But if I want to move my data out of the Amazon, >>you brought up so many good points. So let me go through a few and Lisa jumping. I feel like locking. People don't wanna be locked >>in at the infrastructure level. So, like you said, if >>there's value at the higher levels of Stack, and it helps me do my business faster. That's an okay thing to exchange, but it is just locked in and it's not doing anything. They're that's not equal exchange, right, So there's definitely a move from infrastructure up the platform. So locking in >>infrastructure is what people are trying to move away from. >>From what we see from the perspective of legacy, there is a lot of things happening in industry that's pretty exciting of how legacy will also start to running containers. And I'm sure you've seen that. But containers being the basis you could run a BM as well. And so that will mean a lot for in terms of how V EMS can start >>to be matched by orchestrators like kubernetes. So that is another movement for legacy, and I wanted to acknowledge that point >>now, in terms of the patterns, there are definitely applications, like a hybrid pattern where connect the car has to upload all its data once it docks into its location and move it to the data center. So there are patterns where the workflow does move the ups are the application data between on Prem into a public cloud, for instance, and then coming back from that your trip with Lisa. There is also examples where regulations require companies to enterprise is to be able to move to another cloud in a reasonable time frame. So there's definitely a notion of Multi Cloud is both an architectural design pattern. But it's also a sourcing strategy, and that sourcing strategy is more regulation type o. R. In terms of not being locked in. And that's where I'm saying it's all those things. I'd >>love to get your thoughts on this because I like where you're going with this because it kind of takes it to a level of okay, standardization, kubernetes nights, containers, everyone knows what that is. But then you start talking about a P I gateways, for instance, right? So if I'm a car and I have five different gateways on my device, I ot devices or I have multiple vendors dealing with control playing data that could be problematic. I gotta do something like that. So I'm starting. Envision them? I just made that news case up, but my point is is that you need some standards. So on the a p I side was seeing some trends there. One saying, Okay, here's my stuff. I'll just pass parameters with FBI State and stateless are two dynamics. What do you make of that? What, What? What has to happen next to get to that next level of happiness and goodness? Because Bernays, who's got it, got it there, >>right? I feel that next level. I feel like in Lisa, Please jump. And I feel like from automation perspective, Kubernetes has done that from a P I gateway. And what has to happen next. There's still a lot of easy use that isn't solved right. There's probably tons of opportunities out there to build a much better user experience, both from the operations point of view and from what I'm trying to do is an intense because what people aren't gonna automate right now is the intent. They automate a lot of the infrastructure manual tasks, and that's goodness. But from how I docked my application, how the application did it gets moved. We're still at the point of making policy driven, easy to use, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for everyone to get better there. That's like low priority loving fruitcake manual stuff >>and communities was really good at the local food. That's a really use case that you brought up. Really. People were looking at the data now and when you're talking about persistent mean kun is his great for stateless, but for state full really crucial data. So that's where we really come in. And a number of other companies in the cloud native storage ecosystem come in and have really fought through this problem and that data management problem. That's where this platform that Aaron was talking to that >>state problem. Talk about your company. I want to go back to to, um, Google Days. Um, many war stories around kubernetes will have the same fate as map reduce. Yeah, the debates internally at Google. What do we do with it? You guys made the good call. Congratulations on doing that. What was it like to be early on? Because you already had large scale. You were already had. Borg already had all these things in place. Um, it wasn't like there was what was, >>Well, a few things l say one is It was intense, right? It was intense in the sense that amazing amount of intelligence amazing amount of intent, and right back then a lot of things were still undecided, right? We're still looking at how containers or package we're still looking at how infrastructure kit run and a lot of service is were still being rolled out. So what it really meant is howto build something that people want to build, something that people want to run with you and how to build an ecosystem community. A lot of that the community got was done very well, right? You have to give credit to things like the Sig. A lot of things like how people like advocates like Lisa had gone out and made it part of what they're doing. And that's important, right? Every ecosystem needs to have those advocates, and that's what's going well, a cz ah flip side. I think there's a lot of things where way always look back, in which we could have done a few things differently. But that's a different story for different. Today >>I will come back in the studio Palop of that. I gotta ask you now that you're outside. Google was a culture shock. Oh my God! People actually provisioning software provisioning data center culture shock when there's a little >>bit of culture shock. One thing is, and the funny thing is coming full circle in communities now, is that the idea of an application? Right? The idea of what is an application eyes, something that feels very comfortable to a lot of legacy traditional. I wanna use traditional applications, but the moment you're you've spent so much time incriminates and you say, What's the application? It became a very hard thing, and I used to have a lot of academic debates. Where is saying there is no application? It's It's a soup of resources and such. So that was a hard thing. But funny thing is covered, as is now coming out with definitions around application, and Microsoft announced a few things in that area to so there are things that are coming full circle, but that just shows how the movement has changed and how things are becoming in some ways meeting each other halfway. >>Talk about the company, what you guys are doing. Take a moment. Explain in context to multi cloud. We're here. Port works. What's the platform? It's a product. What's the value proposition? What's the state of the company. >>So the companies? Uh well, well, it's grown from early days when Lisa and I joined where we're probably a handful now. We're in four or five cities. Geography ease over 100 people over 150 customers and there. It's been a lot of enterprises that are saying, like, How do I take this pattern of doing containers and micro service is And how do I run it with my mission? Critical business crinkle workloads. And at that point, there is no mission critical business critical workload that isn't stable so suddenly they're trying to say, How do I run These applications and containers and data have different life cycles. So what they're really looking for is a data plane that works with the control planes and how controlled planes are changing the behavior. So a lot of our technology and a lot of our product innovation has been around both the data plane but a storage control plane that integrates with a computer controlled plane. So I know we like to talk about one control plane. There's actually multiple control planes, and you mentioned security, right? If I look at how applications are running way after now securely access for applications, and it's no longer have access to the data. Before I get to use it, you have to now start to do things like J W. T. Or much higher level bearer tokens to say, I know how to access this application for this life cycle for this use case and get that kind of resiliency. So it's really around having that storage. More complexity absolutely need abstraction >>layers, and you got compute. Look, leading work there. But you gotta have >>software to do it from a poor works perspective. Our products entirely software right down loans and runs using kubernetes. And so the point here is we make remarries able to run all the staple workloads out of the box using the same comment control plane, which is communities. So that's the experiences that we really want to make it so that Dev Ops teams can run anywhere close. And that's that's in some ways been part of the mix. Lisa, >>we've been covering Dev up, going back to 2010. Remember when I first was hanging around San Francisco 2008 joint was coming out the woodwork and all that early days and you look at the journey of how infrastructures code We talked about that in 2008 and now we'll get 11 years later. Look at the advancements you've been through this now The tipping point. It's just seems like this wave is big and people are on it. The developers air getting it. It's a modern renaissance of application developers, and the enterprises it's happening in the enterprise is not just like the nerds Tier one, the Alfa Geeks or >>the Cloud native. It's happening in the >>everyone's on board this time, and you and I have been in the trenches in the early stages of many open source projects. And I think with with kubernetes Arab reference of community earlier, I'm super proud to be running the world's largest CNC F for user group. And it's a great community, a diverse community, super smart people. One of my favorite things about working for works is we have some really smart engineers that have figured out what companies want, how to solve problems, and then we'll go creative. It'll open source projects. We created a project called autopilot, really largely because one of our customers, every who's in the G s space and who's running just incredible application. You can google it and see what the work they're doing. It's all there publicly, Onda We built, you know, we built an open source project for them to help them get the most out of kubernetes. We can say so. There's a lot of people in the community system doing that. How can we make communities better halfway make commitments, enterprise grade and not take years to do that? Like some of the other open source projects that we worked on, it took. So it's a super exciting time to be here, >>and open source is growing so fast now. I mean, just think about how these projects being structured. Maur and Maur projects are coming online and user price, but a lot more vendor driven projects to use be mostly and used, but now you have a lot of vendors who are users. So the line is blurring between Bender User in Open source is really fascinating. >>Well, you look at the look of the landscape on the C N. C f. You know the website. I mean, it's what 400 that are already on board. It's really important. >>They don't have enough speaking slasher with >>right. I know, and it's just it. It is users and vendors. Everybody's in this community together. It's one of things that makes it super exciting. And it it's how we know this is This was the right choice for us to base this on communities because that's what everybody, you guys >>are practically neighbors. So we're looking for seeing the studio. Palo Alto Eric, I want to ask you one final question on the product side. Road map. What you guys thinking As Kubernetes goes, the next level state, a lot of micro service is observe abilities becoming a key part of it, Obviously, automation, configuration management things are developing fast. State. What's the What's the road map for you guys? >>For us, it's been always about howto handle the mission critical and make that application run seamlessly. And then now we've done a lot of portability. So disaster recovery has been one of the biggest things for us is that customers are saying, How do I do a hybrid pattern back to your earlier question of running on Prem and in Public Cloud and do a d. R. Pale over into some of the things at least, is pointing out that we're announcing soon is non series autopilot in the idea, automatically managing applications scale from a volume capacity. And then we're actually going to start moving a lot more into some of the what you do with data after the life cycle in terms of backup and retention. So those are the things that everyone's been pushing us and the customers are all asking for. You >>know, I think data they were back in recovery is interesting. I think that's going to change radically. And I think we look at the trend of how yeah, data backup and recovery was built. It was built because of disruption of business, floods, our gains, data center failure. But I think the biggest disruptions ransomware that malware. So security is now a active disruptor. So it's not like it after the hey, if we ever have, ah, fire, we can always roll back. So you're infected and you're just rolling back infected code. That's a ransomware dream. That's what's going on. So I think data protection it needs to be >>redefined. What do you think? Absolutely. I think there's a notion of How do I get last week's data last month? And then oftentimes customers will say, If I have a piece of data volume and I suddenly have to delete it, I still need to have some record of that action for a long time, right? So those are the kinds of things that are happening and his crew bearnaise and everything. It gets changed. Suddenly. The important part is not what was just that one pot it becomes. How do I reconstruct everything? What action is not one thing. It's everywhere. That's right and protected all through the platform. If it was a platform decision, it's not some the cattlemen on the side. You can't be a single lap. It has to be entire solution. And it has to handle things like, Where do you come from? Where is it allowed to go? And you guys have that philosophy. We absolutely, and it's based on the enterprises that are adopting port works and saying, Hey, this is my romance. I'm basing it on Kubernetes. You're my date a partner. We make it happen. >>This speaks to your point of why the enterprise is in. The vendors jumped in this is what people care about Security. How do you solve this last mile problem? Storage. Networking. How do you plug those holes in Kubernetes? Because that is crucial to our >>personal private moment. Victory moment for me personally, was been a big fan of Cuban is absolutely, you know, for years. Then there were created, talked about one. The moments that got me that was really kind of a personal, heartfelt moment was enterprise buyer. And, you know, the whole mindset in the Enterprise has always been You gotta kill the old to bring in the new. And so there's always been that tension of a you know, the shiny new toy from Silicon Valley or whatever. You know, I'm not gonna just trash this and have a migration za paying that. But for I t, they don't want that to do that. They hate doing migrations, but with containers and kubernetes that could actually they don't to end of life to bring in the new project. They can do it on their own timetable or keep it around. So that took a lot of air out of the tension in on the I t. Side because they say great I can deal with the lifecycle management, my app on my own terms and go play with Cloud native and said to me, that's like that was to be like, Okay, there it is. That was validation. That means this Israel because now they can innovate without compromising. >>I think so. And I think some of that has been how the ecosystems embrace it, right. So now it's becoming all the vendors are saying my internal stack is also based on community. So even if you as an application owner or not realizing it, you're gonna take a B M next year and you're gonna run it and it's gonna be back by something like awesome. Lisa >>Marie Nappy Eric on Thank you for coming on Port Works Hot start of multiple cities Kubernetes big developer Project Open Source. Talking about multi cloud here at the inaugural Multi cloud conference in New York City. It's the Cube Courage of escape. 2019. I'm John Period. Thanks for watching

>> from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley. HOLLOWAY ALTO, California It is a cube conversation. >> Welcome to this Special Cube conversation here in Palo Alto, California at the Cube Studios at the Cube headquarters. I'm John for the host, like you were a Dustin Kirkland product manager and Google friend of the Cuban. The community with Cooper Netease been on the Cube Cube alumni. Dustin. Welcome to the Cube conversation. >> Thanks. John's a beautiful studio. I've never been in the studio and on the show floor a few times, but this is This is fun. >> Great to have you on a great opportunity to chat about Cooper Netease yet of what you do out some product man's working Google. But really more importantly on this conversation is about the fifth anniversary, the birthday of Cuba Netease. Today we're celebrating the fifth birthday of Cooper Netease. Still, it's still a >> toddler, absolutely still growing. You think about how you know Lennox has been around for a long time. Open stack has been around these other big projects that have been around for, you know, going on decades and Lenox this case and Cooper nineties. It's going so fast, but It's only five years old, you know. >> You know, I remember Adam Open Stack event in Seattle many, many years ago. That was six years ago. Pubes on his 10th year. So many of these look backs moments. This is one of them. I was having a beer with Lou Tucker. J J Kiss Matic was like one of the first comes at the time didn't make it, But we were talking about open stagger like this Cooper Netease thing. This is really hot. This paper, this initiative this could really be the abstraction layer to kind of bring all this cloud Native wasn't part of the time, but it was like more of an open stack. Try and move up to stack. And it turned out it ended up happening. Cooper Netease then went on to change the landscape of what containers did. Dr. Got a lot of credit for pioneering that got the big VC funding became a unicorn, and then containers kind of went into a different direction because of Cooper duties. >> Very much so. I mean, the modernization of software infrastructure has been coming for a long time, and Cooper nutty sort of brings it all brings it all together at this point, but putting software into a container. We've been doing that different forest for for a lot of time, uh, for a long time, but But once you have a lot of containers, what do you do with that? Right? And that was the problem that Cooper Nettie solved so eloquently and has, you know, now for a couple of years, and it just keeps getting better. >> You know, you mentioned modernization. Let's talk about that because I think the modernization the theme is now pretty much prevalent in every vertical. I'll be in D. C. Next week for the Amazon Webster was public sector Summit, where modernization of governments and nations are being discussed. Education, modernization of it. We've seen it here. The media business that were participating in is about not where you store the code. It's how you code. How you build is a mindset shift. This has been the rial revelation around the Dev Ops Movement Infrastructures Code, now called Cloud Native. Share your thoughts on this modernization mindset because it really is how you build. >> Yeah, I think the cross pollination actually across industries and we even we see that even just in the word containers, right and all the imagery around shipping and shipping containers, we've applied these age old concepts that have been I don't have perfected but certainly optimized over decades of, actually centuries or millennia of moving things across water in containers. Right. But we apply that to software and boom. We have the step function difference in the way that we we manage and we orchestrated and administer code. That's one example of that cross pollination, and now you're talking about, like optimizing optimized governments or economies but being able to maybe then apply other concepts that we've come a long way in computer science do de bop set a good example? You know, applying Dev ops principles to non computer feels. Just think about that for a second. >> It's mind blowing. And if you think about also the step function you mentioned because I think this actually changed a lot of the entrepreneurial landscape as well and also has shaped open source and, you know, big news this this quarter is map are going to shut down due one of the biggest do players. Cloudera merge with Horton Works fired their CEO, the founder Michael. So has retired, Some say forced out. I don't think so. I think it's more of his time. I'm Rodel still there. Open source is a business model, you know. Can we be the red hat for her? Duped the red? Not really kind of the viable, but it's evolving. So open source has been impacted by this step function. There's a business impact. Talk about the dynamics with step function both on the business side and on how software's built specifically open source. >> You know, you and I have been around open source for a long, long time. I think it started when I was in college in the late nineties on then through my career at IBM. And it's It's interesting how on the fringe open source was for so long and such so so much of my BM career. And then early time spent onside it at Red Hat. It was it was something that was it was different, was weird. It was. It was very much fringe where the right uh, but now it's in mainstream and it's everywhere, and it's so mainstream that it's almost the defacto standard to just start with open source. But you know, there's some other news that's been happening lately that she didn't bring up. But it's a really touchy aspect of open source right now on that's on some of the licenses and how those licenses get applied by software, especially databases. When offered as a service in the cloud. That's one of the big problems. I think that that's that we're we're working within the open >> source, summarize the news and what it means. What's what's happening? What's the news and what's the really business? Our technical impact to the licensing? What's the issue? What's the core issue? >> Yeah, eso without taking judgment any any way, shape or form on this, the the the TL D are on. This is a number of open source database is most recently cockroach D. B. I have adopted a different licensing model that is nonstandard from an open source perspective. Uh, and from one perspective, they're they're adopting these different licensing models because other vendors can take that software and offered as a service, yes, and in some some cases, like Amazon like Sure, you said, uh, and offered as a as a service, uh, and maybe contribute. Maybe pay money to the smaller startup or the open source community behind it. But not necessarily. Uh, and it's in some ways is quite threatening to open source communities and open source companies on other cases, quite empowering. And it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. The tension between open sourcing software and eventually making money off of it is something that we've we've seen for, you know, at least 25. >> And it continues to go on today, and this is, to me a real fascinating area that I think is going to be super important to keep an eye on because you want to encourage contribution and openness. Att the same time we look at the scale of just the Lenox foundations numbers. It's pretty massive in terms of now, the open source contribution. When you factor in even China and other nations, it's it's on exponential growth, right? So is it just open source? Is the model not necessarily a business? Yeah. So this is the big question. No one knows. >> I think we crossed that. And open source is the model. Um, and this is where me is a product manager. That's worked around open source. I've spent a lot of time thinking about how to create commercial offerings around open source. I spent 10 years at Economical, the first half of which, as an engineer, the second half of which, as a product manager around, uh, about building services, commercial services around 12 And I learned quite a few things that now apply absolutely to communities as well as to a number of open source startups. That that I've advised on DH kind of given them some perspective on maybe some successful and unsuccessful ways to monetize that that opens. >> Okay, so doesn't talk about Let's get back to Coburg. And so I think this is the next level Talk track is as Cooper Netease has established itself and landed in the industry and has adoption. It's now an expansion votes the land adopted expand. We've seen adoption. Now it's an expansion mode. Where does it go from here? Because you look at the tale signs things like service meshes server. Listen, you get some interesting trends that going to support this expansionary stage of uber netease. What is your view about the next expansion everyway what >> comes next? Yeah, I I think I think the next stage is really about democratizing communities for workloads that you know. It's quite obvious where when communities is the right answer at the scale of a Google or a Twitter or Netflix or, you know, some of these massive services that it is obviously and clearly the best answer to orchestrating containers. Now I think the next question is, how does that same thing that works at that massive scale Also worked for me as a developer at a very small scale helped me develop my software. My small team of five or 10 people. Do I need a coup? Burnett. He's If I'm ah five or 10 person startup. Well, I mean, not the original sort of borde vision of communities. It's probably overkill, but actually the tooling has really advanced, and we now >> have >> communities that makes sense on very small scales. You've got things like a three s from from Rancher. You've got micro Kates from from my colleagues at economical other ways of making shrinking communities down to something that fits, perhaps on devices perhaps at the edge, beyond just the traditional data center and into remote locations that need to deploy manage applications >> on the Cooper Netease clustering the some of the tech side. You know, we've seen some great tech trends as mentioned in Claudia Horton. Works and map Our Let's Take Claudia and Horton work. Remember back in the old days when it was booming? Oh, they were so proud to talk about their clusters. I stood up all these clusters and then I would ask them, Well, what do you doing with it? Well, we're storing data. I think so. That became kind of this use case where standing up the cluster was the use case and they're like, OK, now let's put some data in it. It's a question for you is Coburn. Eddie's a little bit different. I'm not seeing they were seeing real use cases. What are people standing up? Cuban is clusters for what specific Besides the same Besides saying I've done it. Yeah, What's the what's the main use case that you're seeing this that has real value? >> Yeah, actually, there's you just jog t mind of really funny memory. You know, back in those big data days, I was CEO of a startup. We were encrypting data, and we were helping encrypt healthcare data for health care companies and the number of health care companies that I worked with at that time who said they had a big data problem and they had all of I don't know, 33 terabytes worth of worth of data that they needed to encrypt. It was kind of humorous sometimes like, Is that really a big, big data problem? This fits on a single disc, you know, Uh, but yeah, I mean, it's interesting how >> that the hype of of the tech was preceding. The reality needs needs, says Cooper Nettie. So I have a Cuban Eddie's cluster for blank. Fill in the blank. What are people saying? >> Yeah, uh, it's It's largely about the modernization. So I need to modernize my infrastructure. I'm going to adopt the platform. That's probably not, er, the old er job, a Web WebSphere type platform or something like that. I'm investing in hardware investing in Software Middle, where I'm investing in people, and I want all of those things to line up with where industry is going from a software perspective, and that's where Cooper Nighties is sort of the cornerstone piece of that Lennox Of course, that's That's pretty well established >> canoes delivery in an integration piece of is that the pipeline in was, that was the fit on the low hanging fruit use cases of Cooper Netease just development >> process. Or it's the operations it's the operations of now got software that I need to deploy across multiple versions, perhaps multiple sites. Uh, I need to handle that upgrade ideally without downtime in a way that you said service mash in a way that meshes together makes sense. I've got a roll out new certificates I need to address the security, vulnerability, thes air, all the things that Cooper and I used to such a better job at then, what people were doing previously, which was a whole lot of four loops, shell strips and sshh pushing, uh, pushing tar balls around. Maybe Debs or rpm's around. That is what Cooper not he's actually really solves and does an elegant job of solving as just a starting point. And that's just the beginning and, you know, without getting ve injury here, you know, Anthros is the thing that we had at Google have built around Cooper Netease that brings it to enterprise >> here the other day did a tweet. I called Anthem. I just typing too fast. I got a lot of crap on Twitter for that mission. And those multi cloud has been a big part of where Cubans seems to fit. You mentioned some of the licensing changes. Cloud has been a great resource for a lot of the new Web scale applications from all kinds of companies. Now, with several issues seeing a lot more than capabilities, how do you see the next shift with data State coming in? Because God stateless date and you got state full data. Yeah, this has become a conversation point. >> Yeah, I think Kelsey Hightower has said it pretty eloquently, as he usually does around the sort of the serval ist movement and lets lets developers focus on just their code and literally just their code, perhaps even just their function in just their piece of code, without having to be an expert on all of the turtles all the way, all the way down. That's the big difference about service have having written a couple of those functions. I can I can really invest my time on the couple of 100 lines of code that matter and not choosing a destro choosing a cougar Nati is choosing, you know, all the stack underneath. I simply choose the platform where I'm gonna drop that that function, compile it, uploaded and then riff and rub. On that >> fifth anniversary, Cooper Netease were riffing on Cooper Netease. Dustin Circle here inside the Cube Cube Alumni you were recently at the coop con in overseas in Europe, Barcelona, Barcelona, great city. Keeps been there many times. Do was there covering for us. Couldn't make this trip, Unfortunately, had a couple daughter's graduating, so I didn't make the trip. Sorry, guys. Um, what was the summary? What was the takeaway? Was the big walk away from that event? What synthesized? The main stories were the most important stories being >> told. >> Big news, big observations. >> It was a huge event to start with. It was that fear of Barcelona. Um, didn't take over the whole space. But I've been there a number of times from Mobile World Congress. But, you know, this is this is cube con in the same building that hosts all of mobile world Congress. So I think 8,000 attendees was what we saw. It's quite celebratory. You know, I think we were doing some some pre fifth birthday bash celebrations, Key takeaways, hybrid hybrid, Cloud, multi Cloud. I think that's the world that we've evolved into. You know, there was a lot of tension. I think in the early days about must stay on. Prem must go to the cloud. Everything's there's gonna be a winner and a loser and everything's gonna go one direction or another. I think the chips have fallen, and it's pretty obvious now that the world will exist in a very hybrid, multi cloud state. Ultimately, there's gonna be some stuff on Prem that doesn't move. There's going to be some stuff better hosted in one arm or public clouds. That's the multi cloud aspect, Uh, and there will be stubborn stuff at the edge and remote locations and vehicles on oil rigs at restaurants and stores and >> so forth. What's most exciting from a trans statement? What do you what? What's what's getting you excited from what you see on the landscape out there? >> So the tying all of that to Cooper Netease, Cuban aunties, is the thing that basically normalizes all of that. You write your application put it in a container and expect to communities to be there to scale that toe. Operate that top grade that to migrate that over time. From that perspective, Cooper nineties has really ticked, ticked all the boxes, and you've got a lot of choices now about which companies here, you're going to use it and where >> beyond communities, a lot of variety of projects coop flow, you got service messes out there a lot of difference. Project. What's What's a dark horse? What's something that sets out there that people should be paying attention to? That you see emerging? That's notable. That should be paying attention. To >> think is a combination of two things. One is pretty obvious, and that's a ML is coming like a freight train and is sort of the next layer of excitement. I think after Cooper, Netease becomes boring, which hopefully if we've done our jobs well, that communities layer gets settled and we'll evolve. But the sort of the hockey stick hopefully settles down and it becomes something super stable. Uh, the application of machine learning to create artificial intelligence conclusions, trends from things that is sort of the next big trend on then I would say another one If you really want the dark horse. I think it's around communications. And I think it's around the difference in the way that we communicate with one another across all forms of media voice, video chat, writing, how we interact with people, how we interact with our our tools with our software and in fact, how our software in Iraq's with us in our software acts with with other software that communications industry is, it's ripe for some pretty radical disruption. And you know some of the organizations and they're doing that. It's early early days on those >> changes. Final point you mentioned earlier in our conversation here about how Dev Ops is influencing impacting non tech and computer science. Really? What did you mean by that? >> Uh, well, I think you brought up unexpectedly and that that you were looking at the way Uh, some other industries are changing, and I think that cross pollination is actually quite quite powerful when you take and apply a skill and expertise you have outside of your industry. But it adds something new and interesting, too, to your professional environment. That's where you get these provocative operations. He's really creative, innovative things that you know. No one really saw it coming. >> Dave Ops principles apply to other disciplines. Yeah, agility. That's that's pointing down waterfall based processes. That's >> one phenomenal example. Imagine that for governments, right to remove some of the like the pain that you and I know. I've got to go and renew my license. My birthday's coming up. I gotta go to renew my driver's license. You know much. I'm dreading going to the the DMV Root >> Canal driver's license on the same. Exactly >> how waterfall is that experience. And could we could we beam or Mohr Agile More Dev Autopsy and some of our government across >> the U. S. Government's procurement practices airbase upon 1990 standards they still want Request a manual, a physical manual for every product violent? Who does that? >> I know that there are organizations trying to apply some open source principles to government. But I mean, think about, you know, just democracy and how being a little bit more open and transparent in the way that we are in open source code, the ability to accept patches. I have a side project, a passion for brewing beer and I love applying open source practices to the industry of brewing. And that's an example of where use professional work, Tio. Compliment a hobby. >> All right, we got to bring some cubic private label, some Q beer. >> If you like sour beer, I'm in the sour beer. >> That's okay. We like to get the pus for us. Final question for you. Five years from now, Cooper needs to be 10 years old. What's the world gonna look like when we wake up five years from now with two Cuban aunties? >> Yeah, I think, uh, I don't think we're struggling with the Cooper nutties. Uh, the community's layer. At that point, I think that's settled science, inasmuch as Lennox is pretty settled. Science, Yes, there's a release, and it comes out with incremental features and bug fixes. I think Cuban aunties is settled. Science management of of those containers is pretty well settled. Uh, five years from now, I think we end up with software, some software that that's writing software. And I don't quite mean that in the way That sounds scary, uh, and that we're eliminating developers, but I think we're creating Mohr powerful, more robust software that actually creates that that software and that's all built on top of the really strong, robust systems we have underneath >> automation to take the heavy lifting. But the human creation still keeping one of the >> humans Aaron the look it's were We're many decades away from humans being out of the loop on creative processes. >> Dustin Kirkland, he a product manager of Google Uh, Cooper Netease guru also keep alumni here in the studio talking about the coup. Burnett. He's 50 year anniversary. Of course, the kid was president creation during the beginning of the wave of communities. We love the trend we love Cloud would left home a tec. I'm Sean for here in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching.

>> And one topic. I want to get onto that. You mentioned it up and you opened the can of worms on this. So I blame you. His blood flow restriction training you called B F R. And Freeman listening chases the well, the most well versed individuals in this area. I was, I learned from him probably weekly on it, and I get studies from him. I used to be daily. Probably. It will lessen consistent now, because he's probably realizing that I can't read that fast. But I'm gonna chase to talk a little bit about some of protocols that you used be a far and harder you can use it for. Not yet. That's like development for individuals who might just be seeking an alternative way to work out whether the older adults, people who travel on the road and what it does physiologically for not only muscle growth, but the tendon thickness, like you said, and some of the other other >> protocols. Such a cellular swelling protocols. >> Yeah, yeah, I think you know, the one thing I would say about our previous of conversation with incense Thing is, I'm not telling people not to take him out like running around saying that that's the devil and all that. So I make sure that I'm not like one of those zealots about that stuff. It's it's just Hey, do you need it? You know, like this, that thought process is critical. Is this necessary? Not let me just problem cause I'm sore today, right? I think that's the caveat I want people to walk away with is that everything is necessary if it's necessary. And if it's not, is there a better alternative, or is it just part of life? Is that part of being a division one athlete or, you know, somebody who's recreational? E fit is you're going to feel a little sore and tired. Is it necessary to take that pill that made negatively? Thank you. So I think that's one thing I want to say, but kind of moving on to the >> You are not a dealer. I will vouch for it. Yeah. Interesting topic to talk about. And I give you credit for being open minded on both ends. Yes, everyone was concerned. >> Yeah, Yeah, I want to throw that out there. But I think with the Bee Afar stuff, it's I'm so ill. I've learned a lot from the man. Dr Headless Sarah. Hey, Works is Smart tools company, which they're just absolutely revolutionising how available and the education that's associative willful restrictions. So I you know, I I'm gonna kind of pass on that credit and say that, uh, they're really pushing the field forward, and I'm not affiliated with the company. I just think what they're doing is is fantastic work, because local restriction obviously has been around for a long time. It's not new, you know, we're not pretending it's new, but you know, it's really the availability of cuffs for sort of affordable prices has made it seem no refreshed and kind of a new life to it started in the late nineties in Japan, really doing a lot of the early research on it. Ah, lot of people started with tine off with different straps and and, ah, bands that they're just wrapping around their arms and looking for, you know, in a partial occlusion and some cases probably dangerously a full ischemia. But I think you saw it. And most recent years, with some of the owns recovery and the Delphi's, which come in a pretty high price tag and as I mentioned, smart tools has come out. They have much more affordable. I think it's, you know, a tenth of the price. And so now you're able tto. But these types of you know it's tool and everybody's hands. And I think it's is changing the landscape as faras, a modality that has multiple uses. And that's one thing when we talk sports science, we talked technology. You know, everything has a time in place. But when I look and evaluate and vet out technology, or whatever we're going to bring on is as a new resource. I always looked forward to have multiple uses, doesn't have a bang for your buck, and I think the blood flow restriction does. It's versatile. It can be used in rehab. You can be used to build muscle confused for strength. It can be used as, ah, activity potentially ater so you can use it. Potentially increase your subsequent performance with an acute time window. You can use it as a recovery tool, so I think the the utilization of it is still we're learning about it. There's still no definitive. Here's how this happens in this sequence but I think that's what Everything right? The human body. We're learning so much about it. But the science that's there has proven that low load with local restriction, where we're including one hundred percent venous return, but partially including arterial inflow. So there is blood flow going into the muscles and the periphery, but there is no blood flow returning, and so it creates a cooling effect. We're essentially you're gonna limit the availability of oxygen. You're going to decrease the pH and more acidic. You're goingto deplete foster creating stores. You're essentially going to run through the size of principle and use up small of slow twitch fibers and skip essentially rights of fast switch fivers with a low load or even a non loaded exercise. So I think when you talk about somebody who's got limitations, maybe they just had surgery. They can't run. They can't have the impulse of the impact that you would need or you would want to see toe. I kind of developed the most cultures. They come back. Little restriction is a great way because takes a low load exercise and you realise, is that restricted bowling and you get a subsequent fast, which adaptation? So you're you're simulating the big boys, the ones that move us, the ones that make us jump and run faster. Ah, and I think you're seeing time Windows of adaptation that air a sixth of the time Faster, you're getting strength. And I purchased three Adaptation in two weeks, whereas in traditional resistance training it was taking eight to twelve. Um, so And when you talk about, I had an athlete rolled her ankle and I want to make sure that they're not having atrophy is they walk around in a boot. I need to make sure that the muscles around the knees and the hamstrings, the name of the elders, critical drivers and sport aren't just wasting away. So we would have athletes obviously in the rehab sitting, doing protocols to develop muscle but also just sitting the act of just sitting with occlusion passively not doing anything has been shown to cut atrophy by fifty percent. So it's fantastic because it's not invasive. You're not doing anything into him. They're just sitting. So, uh, we don't you know, promote them to play on their phones constantly, but they can sit there and have their phone out and, you know, twenty minutes goes by and they just hopefully of, you know, benefited their return to play and a, you know, a faster, more efficient way than just sitting around. So lots of lots of utility for it. >> Interesting. So for those not familiar bloodflow restriction training the way it works, you gotta cuss. Arms hopefully cast. Not just, uh, elastic band, you tying on. But that's how I started originally from Kat to training out in Japan. So it's a cuff. The attach is approximately on the whim, typically by the shoulder or up along the thigh, and it includes the amount of blood so reduces the amount of blood. Don't go into the muscle, which then allows these Siri's of physiological effects that chase alluded to. That is a difference between Venus and arterial occlusion and chase in. Regards to that were Some of the specifics are for people who aren't as familiar with blood flow. You rattle off a bunch of stuff regarding blood flow and from the adaptations of it. But people who aren't familiar with it you measure the occlusion through Doppler. I believe Smart tools uses a remote Doppler. They're attached to you on the distal limb and everyone using this, what percentages do use? How do you know what you too much occlusion that to type that not tight enough. And we're the protocols that you use once you have the right conclusion for that limb to increase some of these hypertrophy, some muscle growing activities or, you know, just sitting there play on your phone activities that reduces hypertrophy for your athletes. >> Yeah. So what you're doing is you're actually going to take an external Doppler or something that's gonna allow you to magnify the sound of the pulse, right? So if you take radio pulse, you know, right here you would replace the Doppler on it. You would actually be able to hear the heartbeat as it from service, >> due stew, stew, sh >> and up top. They're wearing the cuff. You're going to slowly start to inflate it. It gets tighter, tighter, tighter. And you will eventually get to a point where that, uh, false will start to fade of >> this dish dish. >> And it comes to a point where it's non existent. And so that's when you know that there's been full arterial occlusion that's there one hundred percent. There is no blood flow into that arm. There's no blood flow out. It is included. And so research has shown that basically anywhere from thirty percent in ninety percent, you're gonna have the same amount of occlusion. So if I was explained that, ah, a little bit more detail is so I'm going to take that one hundred percent occlusion number. So if you've ever done your blood pressure and the typical one of perfect blood pressure's one twenty of Brady and that's the same device we're going to use I mean its's stigmata. I'm anemometer the tough one to say, um and you're going to get a number up there like, let's just say two fifty. Alright, so that's your hundred percent occlusion. What again research has shown is that in thirty percent of two. Fifty all the way up to ninety percent of two. Fifty, that's the sweet spot or including arterial, that actually doesn't improve occlusion as the higher you go. So we stick to fifty percent. So, you know, fifty per cent of two fifty is one twenty five. And, ah, you're goingto have Justus. Much of you did it at ninety percent. And really, the differences is pain perception. Because if you start getting up one hundred percent inclusion and telling somebody to exercise, they're not going to like it. It's not going to feel good. So it's a nice sweet spot of saying, Hey, we have included Arterial but not fully restricted, but we have researched it, Venus. But we can still move and be act on DSO with that what you're really looking to do. There's a thirty fifteen fifteen fifteen protocol that's seen pretty commonly, but ultimately you just need to fatigue the muscles. Ito have a low load exercise that's done for high volume, typically fifteen plus wraps for multiple sets with a minimal respirations. So what we're trying to do is we're trying Teo, allow for blood to be flung, pumped into the muscle. You're goingto actively, you know, contract. Over time, it's going to stimulate fast twitch fibers. You're going to rest for a very short period. More blood flow is going to go to the area. It's gonna keep getting more acidic. It's going to keep activating Mohr fast twitch, and you're going to just repeat that. And so I mean it really, really magnifies the response of typically a weight or resistance that would be almost no impact on you at all. You would have no performance benefit from using a weight that light. So you can really use it as you know, when I was in a rehab setting with an athlete who has very little capability to handle load. Or you could use it as a finisher in your body builder. And you wantto stimulate ah, muscle group that's lagging, and you really want to build it up. Ah, it's the fantastic thing I think about It is it's a minimally damaging activity. And what I mean by that is that you're gonna have a dramatic reduction and creating stores of CK levels. Lt's myoglobin. You're not going to get the same mechanical breakdown that you see what too difficult resistance training when we start talking about internal load and H R V. If you were to substitute and in season lift with the Afar, you're still going to get strengthened and have virtually adaptation without the potential systemic load. That may be a typical resistance training session. Does the now you start talking about minimizing, uh, internal responses? Bye. Still getting annotation, so it's it's pretty, pretty amazing. >> Yeah, that's that's something. So I've seen personally as well. I use smart tools, smart tools. I'm not feeling it with a big fan of whom, because they made it affordable for individuals like you, of myself actually use them. So we're talking about occlusion. We're talking about reducing amount of arterial occlusion, but not with the amount of Venus inclusions here allowing blood to pool. It's an extent you get large amounts of violation. You increase the amount of capital area is in that area, but you're also not breaking down the muscle in the same way that you would otherwise. So we're lifting a heavy load. You have the fibers himself begin to essentially tear apart. Your body has to rebuild these, but now we're increasing hypertrophy, so growing them also, without having to have this break down response in the muscle itself. But that being said, the loads that you're using are also twenty percent of your one rat max. So a very, very light load you're using to fatigue. How does that affect the tendon itself? Because one thing I've noticed personally, this is I'm not I'm not saying you should do this, Okay, this is what I did and maybe stupid or whatever you wanna call it. I had a really bad Tanaka, the issue of my knee where I couldn't play basket. I couldn't go upstairs well, and I didn't be afar. Traditional trailer at tempo work. But when I started doing be fr low level plyometrics when I started inducing some of the shearing forces on the tendon to increase adaptation that area that otherwise might not be there with a >> low load, >> I started Teo see much better results in my knee compared to some of the tempo work. Do you do anything specifically with B a far that might target attendant outside of the traditional thirty wraps, fifteen wraps, fifteen reps. Fifteen reps with >> a low load. >> Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think you know some of the ice of measures that we talked about when you were working in Stanford and having that Anil Jessica effect. So having the ability to have the mitigation on acute windows of what, fifteen, forty five minutes, but also the college and proliferation. So you're getting an increase in human growth hormone that there's like one hundred seventy percent times greater after ah workout, which we know. H gh doesn't necessarily build bigger muscles, but it does stimulate collagen growth. So when you're having somebody who is maybe coming back from a ruptured Achilles or another, you know IDA cirrhosis issue, You know, it's a great way to help promote and environment and maybe in a vascular area and the kind of forces, nutrients and a hormonal shift that may promote a more appealing environment. I think you know, we talked about it briefly. The training piece, I think you know, the more that you can start to get people into. I'm not overly dramatic, sport specific person, but I think the more you can get people into activities that are going to be replicated on the field, know whether it's sled pushes and walks or whether it's, you know, having some type of, um, you know, activity. If your picture where you're getting your arm through these range of emotions that are going to be necessary while using the inclusion is actually gonna promote a lot of ongoing benefit. I think toe rehabilitate the area on a functional manner and develop not only the musculature, but also remote the properties around that specific tissue that needs to be healed. So I think there's some really cool things that are just now kind of being played with Just because we can actually die. Elin, the proper collusions. We can actually die. Elin. What we want to see happen with you whether it's, uh, some of the cells, whole protocols that we're doing are these giving preconditions. Bread falls. Where were haven't athletes sit for extended period time passively with their occlusion of set? And then they're gonna reap, refuse. We're in, Allow blood flow back, and we're going to do that repeated intervals prior to activity and see a potential for increased power output. Oxygen. Connectix. The research is pretty amazing with some of the human reconditioning and that they're saying, um, increase time to exhaustion, decrease time trial performances. But they don't really know why. You know, there isn't like a clear mechanisms for performance gains that's been totally identified just yet. There has been stuff where it's shown to attenuate lacked eight levels. So you're obviously no cellular. Respiration is enhanced because you're not getting that amount of hydrogen present in the blood. So you may be potentially more efficient energy user using more, more fat and oxygen, so that's great there. But I think you know, as the research are sketching out, that piece is that's one thing that I'm looking at doing for my research focus for school. Is that potentially a shin piece? If I'm already going to be sitting around before a game, or I'm gonna have time between events like a track and field event are, you know, Cool event. And I know I can sit here passively, not use energy, provide a stimulus to the body that's gonna potentially open up neural pathways or physiological mechanisms to increase contract ability of the muscles. I'm going to, then maybe get that extra tenth of a second. I'm going to throw an extra, you know, a couple feet on the javelin. I'm going to do whatever I need to dio potentially at a higher level. I think that's really as we're pushing towards performance. Why do you take, you know, choose during the game like you want increase performance, you want to run longer, and I think this is going to add one more a little layer to it. That from an investment piece is minimally invasive is minimally changing to their to their schedule. They're not. They don't have to do anything crazy. They feel good. And that's the biggest thing. Is the anecdotal feedback on it is man, I feel great. I feel like I have to I don't have to do a full warm up. I feel like I can just kind of get out there, move around. We still have him do stuff, but they just feel like they've warmed up faster. And I think of that piece is gonna be really cool to see if we can demonstrate some of empirical evidence on it. >> Yeah, that I'm excited to see the research, >> and I know you're working hard on it. >> It's kind of a great stop. Making Brava kind really brings us full circle because you look at be fr it, increases their sit in the area and lacked a production and increases economic nervous system arousal, which has been shown both to increase cognitive abilities. Um, neural plasticity and ability to enhance memory. And so why you're doing this? It's also the only prime main the body for the coming activity. We also prime ing the body is a hole in regards to it's mental capacity and not just the muscular area. And so when you start looking at that, you know, full system, the human body and how we can talk about a little bit here, some dynamical systems where you know the body is really complex. What happens in one area affects another. You can't differentiate between your physical mental side because the physical side of the Afar is now enhancing your mental side. Just like your perception. Ten hands a workout. And so you have feedback up and feedback back down. And that's just a great, you know, highlight You brought up because now it's really inclusive. Were we're so often thinking this isolated manner. Oh, if we've been to this or we run this, this will happen. But we don't think about it in this recursive loop manor where what I did to my muscle, right, our muscle releases these myo times. I go talk to our brain, which then go back and talk to our muscle. And we have the endocrine system working together to orchestrate this all and just the whole idea of be a farm for a game It's not just right the muscles and the scheming Preconditioning, but it's also a fact that you're putting the person in a state That's more conducive. Two performance itself, because so often and this isn't to go on a rant and I apologise. And this is something you buy a top about, right? Avoiding the sympathetic states, All right, we don't want to be sitting there before game doing deep belly breathing because we need to be ready to roll. There's a reason why you get excited in these situations and a really excellent full loop example. How Don't comes together there. >> Yeah, I think one last little piece with that, too, is black. Tate has been shown and exercise of a specific lactate now to have been associated with BDNF, right? So that brain derived neurotrophic factor that exercise stimulates like Miracle Gro for the brain, >> and that if >> you're sitting around watching, you know, lecture for an hour, get up to ten SWATs. Walk around, and all of a sudden you have a renewed focus. And so with that to your point of it's all connected is you have an athlete who essentially is going to get a benefit from that. But we're also, you know, and there they'll never watch this, so I'll say it. I do planting that placebo. My burbage is really, really careful. And hey, just so you know, you wear this attempt ten, fifteen minutes before you do some ISOs, your ankle will feel better. It has an ability to mitigate. Think like him. Planting that sense of this is gonna work because we'll see Bo Effect works. We know it does. So there's a little bit of, you know, mix of art and science and how we imply these technologies and saying they like, Hey, Logan, just say no, you wear this before that game, your ankle will feel better. You're gonna feel looser, going to hell faster and just letting them roll with that and don't need to tell him anything else. And I think that to your point of it's all connected can then maximise whatever intervention you want to, then increase performance. >> Yeah, and I'll avoid a rant here. I'll keep it short, I promise. But what you hit on? Perfect. Especially since that. Look at some of studies regarding attendance, they'll look at it and see that the timid itself is healthy, yet they feel pain, and they've done lost studies where they're saying an external stimulus. So something like a metre gnome in the background going Ping Ping Ping and you're focused on the stimulus instead of the pain. And you now begin to de associate your knee with pain because the stimulus and regards to the tempo that's going on the background, you're doing it. Why didn't exercise So now? Because you're focused on this external stimulus fall during exercise, you begin to disassociate pain with your, you know, near tendon during that movement and just really shows how coupled the system is and how our brain talks your body body. And if we perceive that we're healthy right? You said, Oh, mixing the heart and the science while you're mixing the science of the science, right? Your you understand that perception is reality is not necessarily. We like to call it art because there's no number to put behind it. Really. It's, you know, the science that our body is deeply into connected and how are neurons from the brain talked to our muscles? Are muscles tough back to our brain are all essentially one and how everything from your nutrition, your perception to your stress from school, you're emotional state, whether you got a text message from someone that made you upset all effects, your internal load off the body itself. And regardless of what external only put and no matter how hard you want to work, if your internal system isn't able to handle the stimulus they're going to put on it in terms of the load you're going to give then what we're doing is it? It's really falling short of what we're actually trying to accomplish because we're essentially using external load to infer what's going on. But there's so many things that go on inside the body outside of external load that we're only using one system to monitor the internal system. We're kind of I was a falling short, but not maybe doing all that we can. >> D'oh Yeah, I mean, I think the you know not to rant myself, but that's one of the biggest mistakes that we as a sissy practitioners make, is the assumption with general adaptation Centrum theory that you're getting people and that they're adapting at the rate into the dose that you think is appropriate that we're making that assumption as to where they're at. So when we say, Oh, they're at home, you know, stasis. And we're going to apply to weeks of ah loading scheme, and then we're gonna unload, and then we're gonna push it higher because they're going to super compensate. I think that is a load of crap. I think that we want that to be the case because we want to feel justified and feel good ofwhat we d'oh. But in many cases, you really have to dial in all the factors associated with overreaching all the factors associated with performance and mix them and have checks and balances to see truly, if somebody is where you think they are and if you got them where they are and if not, what was the reason why was there an energy insufficiency? Was there a Micronesian problem? Was there associated stress damaging the functioning, The A access All those things have you know they come in to play, but we are so rigid and and a lot of our thinking me included Holy, guilty. This we work in four to six week block. So yeah, you know, my own load is gonna be a three week three. Well, maybe your own unload should be a week nine. You know, like, how do you know that they're not ready for Maura. Maura, Amore. Um, you know, so that I think that assumption of not necessarily taking into consideration that connectedness between all these systems Ah, can get us into trouble to make us have false positives. I think I think we really congrats pawn the stuff that's not there >> now, that's that's couldn't be said better because we like to make it simple, because we can understand Simple. And when we make it complex, we realize we don't really understand that much. But the more we appreciate as complex, the more we can appreciate how applying something simple, like we think a load ten push ups really isn't as simple as it may be. And that at times, can cause paralysis by analysis. Where you have so many things >> going on at once and to consider I'm not saying that we just sit there and measure every single subsystem. I know you're not either, >> but the idea that we need to appreciate that and see where can we maybe refer. Teo, Turn, Tio. That isn't just in the lane off. How much weight do we lift? How much low do we give someone But what other factors could be involved and that athletes life. That's not getting the results that we think this external load should be leading. Tio, it's a great check engine light, because now we have this external load. Hey, I expected to be here in three months, and you're not there. That's okay. Who knows whose fault it is? No one's. But the idea is that now we can turn different people because we didn't see the expected results. We can dive a little deeper, and that's allowing us to utilize our resource is whether it's a friend. You know, a doctor. You know, another practitioner, you know, to help arm us with the information to be the best that we can be. >> Yeah, I think that's what the external load comes in, right. You gotta know if they're not meeting expectations or the desired outcomes. No. Are they typically matching people in practice? You know that are similar positional demands. Are they typically being asked to do something that isn't looking normal? That would then we can kind of backtrack and see how they were doing it. What the fuck? Jack is associated with an internal load work, and again, we don't. We don't monitor everything. We don't think it's necessary. We try and find what's appropriate for his team and scenario. But I think again, if you're mindful and you know you're athletes and you know the scenario of what you're trying to put them in, you can then kind of use your your coaching, I to say, Okay, what are the things that I think may be influencing? Yeah, providing Malad a patient, you know, orange, the desired stimulus, you know, desired outcome. Now, what are we doing to them that we should be seeing or think we should be saying. And if I know them, what is essentially a confounding variable to that? >> Yeah, No, that's perfect. You don't assess everything. A because you can't and be known as time. But you assess what's pertinent and you're aware of what's apartment and you act out the check engine light and facilitate where you can now, well said, because I think both ends resettle. Let's be so simple and just do this or let's on Lee do this aspect over here. But when you take in consideration, all of it, you allow yourself to be the best you can be in your position that you're in because you're not trying to solve everything. You just try to facilitate where you can. Yeah, perfect for Chase. And I want to hold you up too long, and I really appreciate you being here. I want to wrap it up before finishing up here. I got, I guess, two questions for you. I didn't send them to you ahead of time so that I can if you don't have a quick answer, that's fine. The first one is it's pretty simple. I'm not going. I don't mean Resource is in terms of O go to Pub Med or go to this paper. But are there any individuals out there that you can possibly listen to or find that you have found the very informative and not just in terms of all that's good information, but sometimes change the way you think about how you do your job. >> I'm talking to you right now. It's a lot of my my thoughts and know how I address of, you know, some of the the bio mechanics and physics of what we're doing. You know, it's definitely not an area that I'm strong in, and I think you've done a great job of putting information out there for the public tio toe, you know, be able to digest an easy manner, man, you know, a public resource. You know, this may sound kind of cheesy and maybe a little bit of roast sci fi, but I still re t Nation and Goto like all those you know, you know, Jim Wendler sites and freed all the Westside stuff. And, you know, I think you can't isolate sports science and sail. It's just Dad are, Oh, it's just, you know, pumping out research out of the lab or Oh, it's physiology or urge technology. I think each practitioners gonna have their own flavour and what they like and what they bring to the table. And I think that we need to cater to that. Each person should say, Hey, this is what I'm good at. These are my skills. I want to learn more about tax and if X s o happens to be baseball and throwing and overhead athletes than you're going to find the Mike Ryan holds air crises and really dive into that. And if you want to know about traditional pure ization schemes and force plays, you're gonna look at the stone stuff. You're gonna look at half, you're going to look at people who are early pioneers in it. So I think, you know, I don't have ah, necessarily a one person go follow, but it's more of a question to the question is what do you want to know about? What do you like? What's something that's really really, you know, kind of hits the button for you and then just start Googling stuff start, you know, typing these these keywords in and people will start popping up. And I think that's my development has come has jumped. The greatest, I guess Leaves is when I started diving into these rabbit holes of what I want to learn about right now and just saying for the next two weeks, I'm going all in on, you know, let's see saturation lost muscle from Samo, too. You know, I'm just learn everything I can about my loving and hemoglobin and mad a crit and all that stuff. So it's really more about finding what you want to know at that time and just doing a deep dive and then finding something else, doing a deep that and before you know it, you're times years to that and you have a, you know, a well rounded hopefully, you know, face of knowledge to pull from. >> And my last question for you chase. And this might be a tough one for you to answer the that you are the ghost of social media. Yeah, That the king of the King of trolling my page. You know that you are interested. People are interested in following up on what you're doing. Where can they find more information about yourself? What links or handles either. Twitter, Instagram. Would you advise him to look up into and keep a tab on yourself? >> So the only thing I'm using, as I have on Instagram and at Underscore Chase felt so It's It's simple. It's like toe like to troll you and fight in every now and then. But, ah, that's basically what I got. I got a couple post up there. But maybe maybe if, uh, I get a little help, we'll see how it Ah, how it grows. >> Yeah. I highly advise you guys following him because we continue to push him to post more stuff. I shouldn't be the only one privileged to get his text messages at obscure hours, highlighting some interesting topics I would love for it to be shared publicly. So I'm not being the third party siphoning off his knowledge and posting there. Yeah, well, they could chase. I really appreciate you hanging here and be able to be our first guest again here. The reason why I wanted you on first you quite a bit played a big role in my development and continue, Tio. And we all wish the best for you. Um, it really was great to have you here and thank you. >> All right, man, I appreciate it was a lot of fun. >> All right. Awesome. Well, thank you guys for listening again. My handle here is strong. Sorry. At strong underscore by science. I did that all wrong. It's at strong. Underscored by underscore science. I should know my own handled by now. I use Instagram, I think my Twitter's handles at strong underscore science. Who knows? We'll make a link to it. We'll be sharing this podcast here shortly with different clips as well. For those of you who don't have the attention span to listen to an hour toy mint podcast will die some of this up. So thank you guys for listening. Really appreciate it and take care.