>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Coop Con and Cloud, Native Con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to You by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem Partners. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And this is the Cube's coverage of Cube con Cloud Native Con Europe event, which, of course, this year has gone virtual, really lets us be able to talk to those guests where they are around the globe. Really happy to welcome back to the program. Liz Rice. First of all, she is the vice president of Open Source Engineering at Aqua Security. She's also the chair of the Technical Oversight Committee has part of Ah CN cf. Liz, it is great to see you. Unfortunately, it's remote, but ah, great to catch up with you. Thanks for joining. >>Yeah, Thanks for having me. Nice to see you if you know across the ocean. >>So, uh, you know, one of the one of the big things? Of course, for the Cube Con show. It's the rallying point for the community. There are so many people participating. One of the things we always love to highlight its not only the the vendor ecosystem. But there is a very robust, engaged community of end users that participate in it. And as I mentioned, you're the chair of that technology oversight committee. So maybe just give our audience a little bit of, you know, in case they're not familiar with the TOC does. And let's talk about the latest pieces there. >>Yes, say the TOC is really hit. C can qualify the different projects that want to join the CNC F. So we're assessing whether or not they're cloud native. We're assessing whether they could joined at sandbox or incubation or graduation levels. Which of the different maturity levels that we have for for project within the CN CF yeah, we're really there, Teoh also provide it steering around the What does cloud native mean and what does it mean to be a project inside the CN CF community? We're also a voice for all of the projects. We're not the only voice, but, you know, part >>of our role >>really is to make sure the projects are getting what they need in order to be successful. So it's it's really around the technology and the projects that we call cloud native >>Yeah, and and obliges Cloud Native because when people first heard of the show, of course, Kubernetes and Cube Con was the big discussion point. But as you said, Cloud native, there's a lot of projects there. I just glanced at the sandbox page and I think there's over 30 in the sandbox category on and you know they move along their process until they're, you know, fully mature and reach that, you know, 1.0 state, which is the stamp of approval that, you know, this could be used in production. I understand there's been some updates for the sandbox process, so help us understand you know where that is and what's the new piece of that? >>Yeah. So it's really been because of the growth off cloud native in general, the popularity off the CN CF and so much innovation happening in our space. So there's been so many projects who want Teoh become hard off the CNC f family on and we used to have a sponsorship model where members of the TOC would essentially back projects that they wanted to see joining at the sandbox level. But we ran into a number of issues with that process on and also dealing with the scale, the number of applications that have come in. So we've revamped the process. We made it much easier for projects to apply as much simpler form where really not making so much judgment we're really saying is it's a cloud native project and we have some requirements in terms off some governance features that we need from a project. And it's worth mentioning that when a project joins the CN CF, they are donating the intellectual property and the trademark off that project into the foundation. So it's not something that people should take lightly. But we have tried to make it easier and therefore much smoother. We're able Teoh assess the applications much more quickly, which I think everyone, the community, the projects, those of us on the TOC We're all pretty happy that we can make that a much faster process. >>Yeah, I actually, it brings up An interesting point is so you know, I've got a little bit of background in standards committees. A swell as I've been involved in open source for a couple of decades now some people don't understand. You know, when you talk about bringing a project under a foundation. You talked about things like trademarks and the like. There are more than one foundation out there for CN CF Falls under the Linux Foundation. Google, of course, brought Kubernetes in fully to be supported. There's been some rumblings I've heard for the last couple of years about SDO and K Native and I know about a month before the show there was some changes along SDO and what Google was doing there may be without trying to pass too many judgments in getting into some of the political arguments, help us understand. You know what Google did and you know where that kind of comparison the projects that sit in the CN cf themselves. >>Yeah, So I e I guess two years ago around two years ago, Stu was very much the new kid in the cloud native block. So much excitement about the project. And it was actually when I was a program co chair that we had a lot of talks about sdo at Cube Con cloud native bomb, particularly in Copenhagen, I'm recalling. And, uh, I think everyone I just saw a natural fit between that project on the CN, CF and There was an assumption from a lot of people across the community that it would eventually become part of the CNC f. That was it's natural home. And one of the things that we saw in recent weeks was a very clear statement from IBM, who were one off the Uh huh, yeah, big contributing companies towards that project that that was also their expectation. They were very much under the impression that Stu would be donated to the CN CF at an appropriate point of maturity, and unfortunately, that didn't happen. From my point of view, I think that has sown a lot of confusion amongst the community because we've seen so much. It's very much a project of fits. Service mesh designed to work with kubernetes is it really does. You're fit naturally in with the other CN CF projects. So it's created confusion for end users who, many of whom assume that it was called the CN CF, and that it has the neutral governance that the other projects. It's part of the requirements that we have on those projects. They have to have an open governance that they're not controlled by a single vendor, Uh, and we've seen that you know that confusion, Andi. Frustration around that confusion being expressed by more and more end users as well as other people across the community. And yeah, the door is still open, you know, we would still love to see SDO join the community. Clearly there are different opinions within the SD wan maintainers. I will have to see what happens. >>Yeah, lets you bring up some really good points. You know, absolutely some of some of that confusion out there. Absolutely. I've heard from customers that if they're making a decision point, they might say, Hey, maybe I'm not going to go down that maybe choose something else because I'm concerned about that. Um, you know, I sdo front and center k native, another project currently under Google that has, you know, a number of other big vendors in the community that aiding in that So hopefully we will see some progress on that, you know, going forward. But, you know, back to you talked about, You know, the TOC doesn't make judgements as to you know which project and how they are. One of the really nice things out there in the CN CF, it's like the landscape just for you to help, understand? Okay, here's all of these projects. Here's the different categories they fit in. Here is where they are along that maturity. There's another tool that I read. Cheryl Hung blogged about the technology radar. I believe for continuous delivery is the first technology radar. Help us understand how that is, you know, not telling customers what to do but giving them a little guidance that you know where some of these projects projects fit. In a certain segment, >>Yeah, the technology radar is a really great initiative. I'm really excited about it because we have increasing numbers or end users who are using these different projects it both inside the CN CF and projects that are outside of the CNC F family. Your end users are building stacks. They're solving real problems in the real world and with the technology radar. What Cheryl's been able to facilitate is having the end you to the end user community share with us. What tools? They're actually using what they actually believe are the right hammers for specific nails. And, you know, it's it's one thing for us as it's more on the developer or vendor side Teoh look at different projects and say what we think are the better solutions for solving different problems. Actually hearing from the horse's mouth from the end users who are doing it in the real world is super valuable. And I think that is a really useful input to help us understand. What are the problems that the end user is still a challenge by what are the gaps that we still need to fail more input we can get from the end user community, the more will be solving real problems and no necessarily academic problems that we haven't sorry discovered in >>the real world. Alright, well is, you know, teeing up a discussion about challenges that users still have in the world. If we go to your primary jobs, Main hat is you live in the security world and you know, we know security is still something, you know, front and center. It is something that has never done lots of discussion about the shared responsibility model and how cloud native in security fit together and all that. So maybe I know there's some new projects there, but love to just give me a snap shot as where we are in the security space. As I said, Overall, it's been, you know, super important topic for years. This year, with a global pandemic going on, security seems to be raised even more. We've seen a couple of acquisitions in the space, of course. Aqua Security helping customers along their security journey. So what do you seeing out there in the marketplace today and hear from your custom? >>Yeah, I Every business this year has, you know, look at what's going on and you know, it's been crazy time for everyone, but we've been pleasantly surprised at how, you know, in relative terms, our business has been able to. It's been strong, you know. And I think you know what you're touching on the fact that people are working remotely. People are doing so many things online. Security is evermore online. Cloud security's evermore part off what people need to pay attention to. We're doing more and more business online. So, actually, for those of us in the security business, it has bean, you know that there have been some silver linings to this this pandemic cloud? Um, yes. So many times in technology. The open source projects and in particularly defaults in kubernetes. Things are improving its long Bina thing that I've you know, I wished for and talked about that. You know, some of the default settings has always been the most secure they could be. We've seen a lot of improvements over the last 23 years we're seeing continuing to see innovation in the open source world as well as you know, on the commercial side and products that vendors like Akwa, you know, we continue to innovate, continue to write you ways for customers to validate that the application workloads that they're going to run are going to run securely in the cloud. >>Alright and lives. There's a new project that I know. Ah, you know, you Aqua are participating in Tell us a little bit about Starbird. You know what's what's the problem? It's helping solve and you know where that budget >>Yes, So stockholders, one of our open source initiatives coming out of my team are equal on, and the idea is to take security reporting information and turn it into a kubernetes native, uh, resources custom resources. And then that means the security information, your current security status could be queried over the kubernetes AP I, as you're querying the status or the deployment, say you can also be clearing to see whether it's passing configuration audits or it's passing vulnerability scans for the application containers inside that deployment. So that information is available through the same AP eyes through the queue control interface through dashboards like Octane, which is a nice dashboard viewer for kubernetes. And starboard brings security information not just from acquittals but from other vendor tools as well front and center into that kubernetes experience. So I'm really excited about Star Border. It's gonna be a great way of getting security visibility, Teoh more kubernetes use it >>all right. And we were talking earlier about just the maturity of projects and how they get into the sandbox. Is is this still pretty sandbox for >>this? OK, we're still very much in the early phases and you know it. I think in the open source world, we have the ability to share what we're doing early so that we can get feedback. We can see how it resonates with with real users. We've had some great feedback from partners that we've worked with and some actual customers who actually collaborated with When we're going through the initial design, some great feedback. There's still lots of work to do. But, yeah, the initial feedback has been really positive. >>Yeah, is usually the event is one of those places where you can help try toe, recruit some other people that might have tools as well as educate customers about what's going on. So is that part of the call to action on this is, you know, what are you looking for for kind of the rest of 2020 when it when it comes to this project? >>Yeah, absolutely. So internally, we're working on an operator which will automate some of the work that's double does in the background in terms off getting more collaboration. We would love to see integrations from or security tooling. We're talking with some people across the community about the resource definition, so we've come up with some custom resource definitions, but we'd love them to be applicable it to a variety of different tools. So we want to get feedback on on those definitions of people are interested in collaborating on that absolutely do come and talk to me and my team are reluctant. >>Great. Listen, and I'll give you the final word. Obviously, we're getting the community together while we're part So you know any other you know, engagement opportunities, you get togethers. Things that you want people to know about the European show this year. >>Well, it's gonna be really you know, I'm on tenterhooks to see whether or not we can recreate the same atmosphere as we would have in Q con. I mean, it won't be exactly the same, but I really hope that people will engage online. Do come and, you know, ask questions of the speakers. Come and talk to the vendors, get into slack channels with the community. You know, this is an opportunity to pretend we're in the same room. Let's let's let's do what we can Teoh recreate as close as we can. That community experience that you keep corn is famous for >>Yeah, absolutely. That whole way track is something that is super challenging to recreate. And there's no way that I am getting the Indonesian food that I was so looking forward to in Amsterdam just such a great culinary and cultural city. So hopefully sometime in the future will be able to be back there. Liz Rice. Always pleasure catching up with you. Thanks so much for all the work you're doing on the TOC. And always a pleasure talking to you. >>Thanks for having me. >>All right, Lots more coverage from Cube Con Cloud, Native con the European 2020 show, Of course. Virtual I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with coverage of Coop con and cloud, native con Europe 2020 Virtual brought to you by Red Hat, The Cloud Native Computing Foundation and its ecosystem partners >>Welcome back. This is the Cube coverage of Cube Con Cloud, native con, the European show for 2020. I'm your host to Minuteman. And when we talk about the container world, we talk about what's happening in cloud. Native storage has been one of those sticking points. One of those things that you know has been challenging, that we've been looking to mature and really happy to welcome back to the program two of our cube alumni to give us the update on the state of storage for the container world. Both of them are oh, founders and CEOs. First of all, we have Xiang Yang from Rancher Labs, of course, was recently acquired by Sue Save it and the intention to acquire on and also joining us from early the relay. Who is with port works? Shang Amerli. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Alright. So early. I actually I'm going to start with you just cause you know we've seen, you know, a couple of waves of companies working on storage. In this environment, we know storage is difficult. Um, And when we change how we're building things, there's architectural things that can happen. Eso maybe if you could just give us a snapshot, you know, Port works, you know, was created to help unpack this. You know, straight on here in 2020 you know, where you see things in the overall kind of computer storage landscape? >>Absolutely. Still, before I kind of jump into port works. I just want to take a minute to publicly congratulate the the whole rancher team, and and Shang and Shannon And will China have known those folks for a while there? They're kind of true entrepreneurs. They represent the serial entrepreneur spirit that that so many folks know in the valley, and so, you know, great outcome for them. We're very happy for them and ah, big congrats and shout out to the whole team. What works is is a little over five years old, and we've been kind of right from the inception of the company recognized that to put containers in production, you're gonna have to solve, not just the orchestration problem. But the issue of storage and data orchestration and so in a natural kubernetes orchestrates containers and what works orchestrates storage and data. And more specifically, by doing that, what we enable is enterprises to be able to take APS that are containerized into production at scale and and have high availability. Disaster recovery, backup all of the things that for decades I t has had to do and has done to support application, reliability and availability. But essentially we're doing it for purpose with the purpose build solution for containerized workloads. >>Alright, shaming. Of course, storage is a piece of the overall puzzle that that ranchers trying to help with. Maybe if you could just refresh our audience on Longhorn, which your organization has its open source. It's now being managed by the CN. CF is my understanding. So help us bring Longhorn into the discussion >>thanks to. So I'm really glad to be here. We've I think rancher and port work started about the same time, and we started with a slightly different focus. More is exactly right to get containers going, you really need both so that the computer angle orchestrating containers as well as orchestrating the storage and the data. So rancher started with, ah, it's slightly stronger focus on orchestrating containers themselves, but pretty quickly, we realized, as adoption of containers grow, we really need it to be able to handle ah, storage feather. And like any new technology, you know, uh, Kubernetes and containers created some interesting new requirements and opportunities, and at the time, really, they weren't. Ah, a lot of good technologies available, you know, technologies like rook and SEF at the time was very, very premature, I think, Ah, the You know, we actually early on try to incorporate ah, the cluster technology. And it was just it was just not easy. And And at the time I think port Works was, ah, very busy developing. Ah, what turned out to be there flagship product, which we end up, end up, uh, partnering very, very closely. But but early on, we really had no choice but to start developing our own storage technology. So Long horn. As a piece of container storage technology, it's actually almost as oh, there's rancher itself. When about funding engineers, we hired he he ended up, you know, working on it and Then over the years, you know the focus shift that I think the original version was written in C plus plus, and over the years it's now being completely re written in Golan. It was originally written more for Docker workload. Now, of course, everything is kubernetes centric. And last year we you know, we we decided to donate the Longhorn Open Source project to CN CF. And now it's a CN CF sandbox project, and the adoption is just growing really quickly. And just earlier this year, we we finally ah decided to we're ready to offer a commercial support for it. So So that's that's where rancher is. And with longhorn and container storage technology. >>Yeah, it has been really interesting to watch in this ecosystem. A couple of years ago, one of the Q con shows I was talking to people coming out of the Believe It was the Sigs, the special interest group for storage, and it was just like, Wow, it was heated. Words were, you know, back and forth. There's not a lot of agreement there. Anybody that knows the storage industry knows that you know standards in various ways of doing things often are contentious and there's there's differences of opinion. Look at the storage industry. You know, there's a reason why there's so many different solutions out there. So maybe it love to hear from early. From your standpoint, things are coming to get a little bit more. There are still a number of options out there. So you know, why is this kind of coop petition? I actually good for the industry? >>Yeah, I think this is a classic example of Coop petition. Right? Let's let's start with the cooperation part right? The first part of time the you know, the early days of CN, CF, and even sort of the Google Communities team, I think, was really very focused on compute and and subsequent years. In the last 34 years, there's been a greater attention to making the whole stack works, because that's what it's going to take to take a the enterprise class production and put it in, you know, enterprise class application and put it in production. So extensions like C and I for networking and CS I container storage interface. We're kind of put together by a working group and and ah ah you know both both in the CN CF, but also within the kubernetes Google community. That's you talked about six storage as an example. And, you know, as always happens, right? Like it It looks a little bit in the early days. Like like a polo game, right where folks are really? Ah, you know, seemingly, uh, you know, working with each other on on top of the pool. But underneath they're kicking each other furiously. But that was a long time back, and we've graduated from then into really cooperating. And I think it's something we should all be proud of. Where now the CS I interface is really a A really very, very strong and complete solution tow, allowing communities to orchestrate storage and data. So it's really strengthened both communities and the kubernetes ecosystem. Now the competition part. Let's kind of spend. I want to spend a couple of minutes on that too, right? Um, you know, one of the classic things that people sometimes confuse is the difference between an overlay and an interface. CSC is wonderful because it defines how the two layers off essentially kind of old style storage. You know, whether it's a san or ah cloud, elastic storage bucket or all of those interact with community. So the the definition of that interface kind of lay down some rules and parameters for how that interaction should happen. However, you still always need an overlay like Port Works that that actually drives that interface and enables Kubernetes to actually manage that storage. And that's where the competition is. And, you know, she mentioned stuff and bluster and rook and kind of derivatives of those. And I think those have been around really venerable and and really excellent products for born in a different era for a different time open stack, object storage and all of that not really meant for kind of primary workloads. And they've been they've been trying to be adapted for, for for us, for this kind of workload. Port Works is really a built from right from the inception to be designed for communities and for kubernetes workloads at enterprise scale. And so I think, you know, as I as I look at the landscape, we welcome the fact that there are so many more people acknowledging that there is a vital need for data orchestration on kubernetes right, that that's why everybody and their brother now has a CS I interface. However, I think there's a big difference between having an interface. This is actually having the software that provides the functionality for H. A, D R. And and for backup, as as the kind of life cycle matures and doing it not just at scale, but in a way that allows kind of really significant removal or reduction off the storage admin role and replaces it with self service that is fully automated within communities. Yeah, if I >>can, you know, add something that that I completely agree. I mean, over the Longhorns been around for a long time. Like I said, I'm really happy that over the years it hasn't really impacted our wonderful collaborative partnership with what works. I mean, Poll works has always been one of our premier partners. We have a lot of, ah, common customers in this fight. I know these guys rave about what works. I don't think they'll ever get out for works. Ah, home or not? Uh huh. Exactly. Like Morissette, you know, in the in the storage space, there's interface, which a lot of different implementations can plugging, and that's kind of how rancher works. So we always tell people Rancher works with three types of storage implementations. One is let we call legacy storage. You know, your netapp, your DMC, your pure storage and those are really solid. But they were not suddenly not designed to work with containers to start with, but it doesn't matter. They've all written CS I interfaces that would enable containers to take advantage of. The second type is some of the cloud a block storage or file storage services like EBS, GFS, Google Cloud storage and support for these storage back and the CS I drivers practically come with kubernetes itself, so those are very well supported. But there's still a huge amount of opportunities for the third type of you know, we call container Native Storage. So that is where Port Works and the Longhorn and other solutions like open EBS storage OS. All these guys fitting is a very vibrant ecosystem of innovation going on there. So those solutions are able to create basically reliable storage from scratch. You know, when you from from just local disks and they're actually also able to add a lot of value on top of whatever traditional or cloud based, persistent storage you already have. So so the whole system, the whole ecosystem, is developing very quickly. A lot of these solutions work with each other, and I think to me it's really less of a competition or even Coop petition. It's really more off raising the bar for for the capabilities so that we can accelerate the amount of workload that's been moved onto this wonderful kubernetes platform in the end of the benefit. Everyone, >>Well, I appreciate you both laying out some of the options, you know, showing just a quick follow up on that. I think back if you want. 15 years ago was often okay. I'm using my GMC for my block. I'm using my netapp for the file. I'm wondering in the cloud native space, if we expect that you might have multiple different data engine types in there you mentioned you know, I might want port works for my high performance. You said open EBS, very popular in the last CN CF survey might be another one there. So is do we think some of it is just kind of repeating itself that storage is not monolithic and in a micro service architecture. You know, different environments need different storage requirements. >>Yeah, I mean quick. I love to hear more is view as well, especially about you know, about how the ecosystem is developing. But from my perspective, just just the range of capabilities that's now we expect out of storage vendors or data management vendors is just increased tremendously. You know, in the old days, if you can store blocks to object store file, that's it. Right. So now it's this is just table stakes. Then then what comes after that? There will be 345 additional layers of requirements come all the way from backup, restore the our search indexing analytics. So I really think all of this potentially off or in the in the bucket of the storage ecosystem, and I just can't wait to see how this stuff will play out. I think we're still very, very early stages, and and there, you know what? What, what what containers did is they made fundamentally the workload portable, but the data itself still holds a lot of gravity. And then just so much work to do to leverage the fundamental work load portability. Marry that with some form of universal data management or data portability. I think that would really, uh, at least the industry to the next level. Marie? >>Yeah. Shanghai Bean couldn't. Couldn't have said it better. Right? Let me let me let me kind of give you Ah, sample. Right. We're at about 160 plus customers now, you know, adding several by the month. Um, just with just with rancher alone, right, we are. We have common customers in all common video expedient Roche March X, Western Asset Management. You know, charter communications. So we're in production with a number off rancher customers. What are these customers want? And why are they kind of looking at a a a Port works class of solution to use, You know, Xiang's example of the multiple types, right? Many times, people can get started with something in the early days, which has a CS I interface with maybe say, $10 or 8 to 10 nodes with a solution that allows them to at least kind of verify that they can run the stack up and down with, say, you know, a a rancher type orchestrator, workloads that are containerized on and a network plug in and a storage plugging. But really, once they start to get beyond 20 notes or so, then there are problems that are very, very unique to containers and kubernetes that pop up that you don't see in a in a non containerized environment, right? Some. What are some of these things, right? Simple examples are how can you actually run 10 to hundreds of containers on a server, with each one of those containers belonging to a different application and having different requirements? How do you actually scale? Not to 16 nodes, which is sort of make typically, maybe Max of what a San might go to. But hundreds and thousands of notes, like many of our customers, are doing like T Mobile Comcast. They're running this thing at 600 thousands of notes or scale is one issue. Here is a critical critical difference that that something that's designed for Kubernetes does right. We are providing all off the storage functions that Shang just described at container granted, granularity versus machine granularity. One way to think about this is the old Data center was in machine based construct. Construct everything you know. VM Ware is the leader, sort of in that all of the way. You think of storage as villains. You think of compute and CPUs, everything. Sub sub nets, right? All off. Traditional infrastructure is very, very machine centric. What kubernetes and containers do is move it into becoming an app defined control plane, right? One of the things were super excited about is the fact that Kubernetes is really not just a container orchestrator, but actually a orchestrator for infrastructure in an app defined way. And by doing that, they have turned, uh, you know, control off the infrastructure via communities over to a kubernetes segment. The same person who uses rancher uses port works at NVIDIA, for example to manage storage as they use it, to manage the compute and to manage containers. And and that's marvellous, because now what has happened is this thing is now fully automated at scale and and actually can run without the intervention off a storage admin. No more trouble tickets, right? No more requests to say, Hey, give me another 20 terabytes. All of that happens automatically with the solution like port works. And in fact, if you think about it in the world of real time services that we're all headed towards right Services like uber now are expected in enterprises machine learning. Ai all of these things analytics that that change talk about are things that you expect to run in a fully automated way across vast amounts of data that are distributed sometimes in the edge. And you can't do that unless you're fully automated and and not really the storage admin intervention. And that's kind of the solution that we provide. >>Alright, well, we're just about out of time. If I could just last piece is, you know, early and saying to talk about where we are with long for and what we should expect to see through the rest of this year and get some early for you to you know, what differentiates port works from Just, you know, the open source version. So And maybe if we start with just kind of long or in general and then really from from your standpoint, >>yeah, so it's so so the go along one is really to lower the bar for folks to run state for workloads on on kubernetes we want you know, the the Longhorn is 100% open source and it's owned by CN cf now. So we in terms of features and functionalities is obviously a small subset of what a true enterprise grade solution like Port Works or, um, CEO on that that could provide. So there's just, you know, the storage role. Ah, future settle. The roadmap is very rich. I don't think it's not really Ranchers go Oh, our Longhorns goal to, you know, to try to turn itself into a into a plug in replacement for these enterprise, great storage or data management solutions. But But they're you know, there's some critical critical feature gaps that we need address. And that's what the team is gonna be focusing on, perhaps for the rest of the year. >>Yeah, uh, still, I would I would kind of, you know, echo what Chang said, right? I think folks make it started with solutions, like longer or even a plug in connector plug in with one of their existing storage vendors, whether it's pure netapp or or EMC from our viewpoint, that's wonderful, because that allows them to kind of graduate to where they're considering storage and data as part of the stack. They really should that's the way they're going to succeed by by looking at it as a whole and really with, You know, it's a great way to get started on a proof of concept architecture where your focus initially is very much on the orchestration and the container ization part. But But, as Xiang pointed out, you know what what rancher did, what I entered it for Kubernetes was build a simple, elegant, robust solution that kind of democratized communities. We're doing the same thing for communities storage right? What Port works does is have a solution that is simple, elegant, fully automated, scalable and robust. But more importantly, it's a complete data platform, right? We we go where all these solutions start, but don't kind of venture forward. We are a full, complete lifecycle management for data across that whole life cycle. So there's many many customers now are buying port works and then adding deal right up front, and then a few months later they might come back and I'd backup from ports. So two shanks point right because of the uniqueness of the kubernetes workload, because it is an app defined control plane, not machine to find what is happening is it's disrupting, Just like just like virtualization day. VM exist today because because they focused on a VM version off. You know, the their backup solution. So the same thing is happening. Kubernetes workloads are district causing disruption of the D r and backup and storage market with solutions like sports. >>Wonderful. Merlin Chang. Thank you so much for the updates. Absolutely. The promise of containers A Z you were saying? Really, is that that Atomic unit getting closer to the application really requires storage to be a full and useful solution. So great to see the progress that's being made. Thank you so much for joining us. >>Welcome, Shannon. We look forward to ah, working with you as you reach for the stars. Congratulations again. We look >>forward to the containing partnership morally and thank you. Still for the opportunity here. >>Absolutely great talking to both of you And stay tuned. Lots more coverage of the Cube Cube Con cloud, native con 2020 Europe. I'm stew minimum. And thank you for watching the Cube. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>>from the >>Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders around the globe. >>These are cloud native insights. Hi, I'm stupid, man. And welcome to Episode one of Cloud Native Insights. So this is a new program brought to you by Silicon Angle Media's The Cube. I am your host stew minimum, and we're going to be digging in to cloud native and, of course, cloud native like cloud before kind of a generic term. If you look at it online, there's a lot of buzzwords. There's a lot of jargon out there, and so we want to help. Understand what? This is what This isn't on And really happy to welcome back to the program to help me kick it off you piss car. He is an industry analyst. His company is T l A Tech. You. Thanks so much for joining us. >>Thanks, Dave. Glad we're >>all right. And one of the reasons I wanted you to help me kick this off. Not only have you been on the Cube, you know your background. I met you when you were the cto of a service provider over there in Europe, where you're Netherlands based. You were did strategy for a very large ah, supermarket chain also. And you've been on the program that shows like docker con in the past. You work in the cloud native space you've done consulting for. Some of the companies will be talking about today. But you help me kick this off a little bit. When you heard here the term cloud native. Does that mean anything to you? Did that mean anything back in your previous roles? You know, help us tee that up. >>So, you know, it kind of gives off a certain direction and where people are going. Right. Um so to me, Cloud native is more about the way you use cloud, not necessarily about the cloud services themselves. So, you know, for instance, I'll take the example of the supermarket. They had a big e commerce presence. And so we were come getting them to a place where they could, in smaller teams, deploy software in a faster, more often and in a safer way so that teams could work independently of each other, work on, you know, adding business value, whatever that may be for any kind of different company. That's a cloud native to me, Connie means using that to the fullest extent, using those services available to you in a way organizationally and culturally. That makes sense to you, you know, Go wherever you need to go. Be that release every hour or, you know, transform your s AP environment to something that is more nimble, more flexible, literally more agile. So what cloud native means so many things to so many people? Because it's immediately is not directly about the technology, but how you actually use it. >>Um, and u Pua and I are in, you know, strong agreement on this thing. One is you've noticed we haven't said kubernetes yet. We haven't talked about containers because cloud native is not about the tooling. We're, you know, strong participants in you know, the CN CF activities. The Cloud Native Computing Foundation, cube con and cloud native is a huge show. Great momentum one. We're big fans of too often people would conflate and they'd say, Oh, cloud native equals. I'm doing containers and I've, you know, deployed kubernetes one of the challenges out there. You talk about companies, you know? Well, you know, I had a cloud first initiative and I'm using multi cloud and all this stuff. It's like, Well, are you actually leveraging these capabilities, or did I shove things in something I'd railed about for the last couple of years? You talk about repatriation, and repatriation is often I went to go do cloud. I didn't really understand what I was doing. I didn't understand how to leverage that stuff. And I crawled back to what I was doing before because I knew how to do that. Well, so, you know, I think you said it really well. Cloud native means I'm taking advantage of the services. I'm doing things in a much more modern way. The thing I've loved talking to practitioners and one of things I want to do on this program absolutely is talk to practitioners is how have you gone through things organizationally, there are lots of things right now. Talk about like, thin ops. And, of course, all the spin off from Dev Ops and Dev SEC ops. And, like, how are we breaking through silos? How we're modernizing our environments, how we're taking advantage of new ways of doing things and new services. So yeah, I guess you You know, there are some really cool tools out there. Those are awesome things. But, you know, I love your viewpoint. Your perspective on often people in tech are like, Hey, I have this really cool new tool that I can use, you know? Can I take advantage of that? You know, do I do things in a new way, or do I just kind of take my old way and just make things maybe a little incrementally better? Hopefully with some new tooling. >>Oh, yeah. I mean, I totally agree. Um, you know, tooling is cool. Let me let me start by saying that I You know, I'm an engineer by heart, so I love tinkering with new new stuff. So I love communities I love. Um, you know that a new terra form released, for instance, I love seeing competition in the container orchestration space. I love driving into K native server lists. You know, all those technologies I like, But it is a matter of, you know, what can you do with them, right. So, for instance, has she corporate line of mine? I work on their hashtag off. Even they offer kind of Ah, not necessarily an alternative, but kind of adjacent approach to you what the CNC F is doing, and even in those cases, and I'm up specifically calling out Hashi Corp. But I'm kind of giving. The broader overview is, um, it doesn't actually matter what to use, Even though it'll help me. It'll make me happy just to play around with them. But those new tools have to mean something. They have to solve a particular problem. You have either in speed of delivery or consistency of delivery or quality of service, the thing you are building for your customers. So it has to mean something. So back in the day when I started out in engineering 15 years ago, a lot of the engineering loss for the sake of engineering just because, you know you could create a piece of infrastructure a little faster, but there was no actual business value to be out there. That's a lot of the engineering kind of was stuck inside of its own realm, or as what you see now is, if you can use terraform and actually get all of you know the potential out of you, it allow you to release offer more quickly because you're able to stand up infrastructure for that software more quickly. And so you know, we've kind of shifted from back in the in the attic or in the basement doing I t. Stuff that no one really understands. The one kind of perceives the business value of it into the realm of okay, If we can deploy this faster or we don't even need to use a server, we can use server lists. Then we have an advantage in the marketplace. You know, whatever marketplace that is, whatever application we're talking about. And so that's the difference to me. And that was that. You know, that's what CN CF is doing to me. That is what has she Corpus is helping build. That is what you know. A lot of companies that built, for instance, a managed kubernetes service. But from nine spectral crowd, all those kinds of companies, they will help, you know, a given customer to speed up their delivery, to not care about the underlying infrastructure anymore. And that's what this is all about to me. And that is what cloud native means use it in a way that I don't actually have to do the toil off the engineering anymore. There's loads of smart people working for, you know, the Big Three cloud vendors. There's loads of people working for those manage service providers, but he's used them so that you can speed up your delivery, create better software created faster, make customers happy. >>Yeah, it's a lot to unpack there. I want to talk a little bit about that landscape, right When you talk about, you know, cloud native, maybe a little compare contrast I think about, you know, the wave of Dev ops and for often people like, you know, Dev Ops. You know, that's a cultural movement. But there's also tooling that I could buy to help me along that weighs automation, you know, going agile methodology. See, I CD are all things that you're like. Well, is this part of Dev Ops, isn't it? There's lots of companies out there that we saw rows rode that wave of Dev ops. And if you talk about cloud native, you know the first thing you know, you start with the cloud providers. So when I hear you talking about, how do we get rid of things that we don't need to worry about? Well, for years, we heard Amazon Web services talk about getting rid of undifferentiated heavy lifting. And it's something that we're huge fans off you talk about. What is the business outcome? It's not. Hey, I went from, you know, a stand alone server to I did virtualized environments. And now I'm looking container ization or serverless. What can I get rid of? How do I take advantage of native services and all of those cloud platforms? One of the huge values there is, it isn't Hey, I deployed this and maybe it's a little bit cheaper and maybe a little better. But there's that that is really the center of where innovation is happening not only from the platform providers they're setting themselves, but from that ecosystem. And I guess I'll put it out there. One of the things I would like to see from Cloud Native should be that I should be able to take care of take advantage of innovation wherever it is. So Cloud Native does not mean it must live in the public cloud. It does not necessarily mean that I'm going, you know, full bore, multi cloud everywhere. I've had some great debates with Corey Quinn, on the Cube Online and the like, because if you look at customer environments today, you know, yes, they absolutely have their data centers. They're leveraging, typically more than one public cloud. SAS is a big part of the picture and then edge computing and pulls everything away into a much more distributed architecture. So, you know, I'm glad you brought up. You know, Hashi, a company you're working with really interesting. And if you talk about cloud native, it's there. They're not trying to get people to, oh, use multiple clouds because it's good for us. It's they. Hey, the reality is that you're probably using multiple clouds, and whether it's one cloud or many clouds or even in your data center, we have a set of tools that we can offer you. So you know, Hashi, you mentioned, you know, terra form vault. You know, the various tooling is that they have open source, you know, big play in this environment, both under the CN CF umbrella and beyond. Give us a little bit as to, you know, where are the interesting places where you see either vendors and technology today, or opportunity to make these solutions better for users. >>So that's an interesting question, because I literally don't know where to begin. The spectrum is so so broad, it's all start off with a joke on this, right? You cannot buy that helps. But the vendors were sure try and sell it to you. So it's kind of where you know, the battle is is raging on its getting foothold into an organization. Um, and you see that? You know, you see companies like, how is she doing that? Um, they started out with open source tooling that kind of move into the enterprise realm. Um, you solve the issues that enterprises usually have, and that's what the club defenders will trying to you as although you know, the kind of kick start you with a free service and then move you up into their their stack. And that's you know, that's where Cloud native is kind of risky because the landscape is so fragmented, it is really hard to figure out. Okay, this tool, it actually solves my use case versus this one doesn't. But again, it's in the ecosystem in this ecosystem already, so let's let's still use it just because it's easier. Um, but it does boil the disk a lot of the discussion down into. Basically, it's a friction. How much effort does it take to start using something? Because that's where and that's basically the issues enterprises are trying to solve. It's around friction, and it used to be friction around, you know, buying servers and then kind of being stuck with him for 4 to 5 years. But now it is the vendor lock in where people in organizations have to make tough decisions. You know, what ecosystems am I going to buy into it? It's It's also where a lot of the multi cloud marketing comes from on the way down to get you into a specific ecosystem on your end companies kind of filling that gap, helping you manage that complexity and how she corpus is one of those examples in my book that help you manage that multi cloud ah challenge. So but yeah, But it is all part of that discussion around friction. >>Yeah, and I guess I would start if you say, as you said, it is such a broad spectrum out there. If you look in the developer tooling marketplace is, there's lots of people that have, you know, landscapes out there. So CN cf even has a great landscape. And you know, things like Security, you no matter wherever I am and everywhere that I am. And there's a lot of effort to try to make sure that I can have something that spans across the environment. Of course, Security, you know, huge issue in general. And right now, Cohen, 19. The global pandemic coming on has been, you know, putting a spotlight on it even more. We know shared responsibility models where security needs to be. Data is at the center of what we're talking about when we've been talking for years about companies going through their transformation, I hadn't talked about, you know, digital transformation. What that means is, at the end of the day, you need to be data driven. So there's lots of companies, you know, big movement and things like ml ops. How can I actually harness my data? I said one of the things I think we got out of the whole big data wave. It was that bit flip from, Oh my God, their data everywhere. And maybe that's a challenge for me. It now becomes an opportunity and often times somewhere that I can have new value or even new business models that we can create around data. So, you know, data security on and everyone is modernizing. So, you know, worry a bit that there is sometimes, you know, cloud native washing. You know, just like everything else. It's, you know, cloud enabled. You know, ai ready from an infrastructure standpoint, you know, how much are you actually leveraging Cloud native? The bar, we always said, is, you know, if you're putting something in your data center, how does that compare against what I could get if I'm doing aws azure or Google type of environment? So I have seen good progress over the last couple of years in what we used to call it Private Cloud. And now it's more Ah, hybrid environment or multi cloud. And it looks and acts and is managed much more like the public cloud at a lot of that. Is that driver for developers? So you know Palmer, you know, developers, developers, developers, you know, absolutely. He was right as to how important that is. And one of the things I've been a little bit hardened at is it used to be. You talked about the enterprise and while the developers were off in the corner and, you know, we need to think about them and help enable them. But now, like the Dev Ops movement, we're trying to break down those silos. You know, developers are much more in the workflow. When I look at tools out there not only get hub, you know, you talked about Hashi, you know, get lab answerable and others. Often they have ways to have nothing to developers. The product owners and others all get visibility into it. Because if you can get, you know, people in the organization all accessing the same work stream the way that they need to have it there. There's goodness there. So I guess final question I have for you is you know, what advice do we have for practitioners themselves? Often, the question is, how do I get from where I've been? So where I'm going, This whole discussion of Cloud native is you know, we spent more than a decade talking about cloud, and it was often the kind of where in the movement and the like So what? I want to tee up with cloud native is discussion, really for the next decade. And you know, if I'm, you know, a c i o If I'm in, i t how do I make sure that I'm ready for these next opportunities while still managing? You know what I have in my own environment. >>So that kind of circles back to where we started this discussion, right? Cloud native and Dev ops and a couple of those methodologies they're not actually about the tooling. They are about what to do with them. Can you leverage them to achieve a goal? And so my biggest advice is Look for that goal. First, have something toward towards because if you have a problem, the solution will present itself. Um, and I'm not saying go look for a problem. The problems, they're already It's a matter of, um, you know, articulating that problem in a way that your developers will actually understand what to do. And then they will go and find the tools that are needed to solve that particular problem. And so we turn this around in a sense that so finally, we are at a point where we can have business problems. Actually, solved by I t in a way that doesn't require, you know, millions of upfront investment or, you know, consultants from an outside company. Your developers are now able to start solving those problems, and it will maybe take a while. They may need some outside help Teoh to figure some stuff out, But the point is, we can now use you know, these cloud resource is these cloud native services in such a small, practical way that we can actually start solving these business problems in a real way. >>Yeah, you actually, earlier this year I've done a series of interviews getting ready for this type of environment. You know, one of the areas I spent a bunch of time trying to dig in. And to be frank, understand has been server lists. So, you know, people very excited about server lists. You know, one of the dynamics always is, You know, everything we're talking about with containers and kubernetes driving them to think about that. I always looked as container ization was kind of moving up the stack in making infrastructure easier. The work for applications, but something like serverless it comes, top down. It's it's more of not the tooling, but how do I build those applications in those environments and not need to think at least as much about the infrastructure? So server lists Absolutely something we will cover, you know, containers, kubernetes what I'm looking for. Always love practitioners love to somebody. You you've been, you know, in that end, user it before startups. Absolutely. We'll be talking to as well as other people you know, in the ecosystem that you want to help, have discussions, have debates. You know, we don't have, you know, a strong. You know, this is the agenda that we have for cloud native, but I really want to help facilitate the dialogue. So I'll give you a final word here. Anything You know, what's exciting you these days when you talk to your peers out there, you know, in general, you know, it can be some tools, even though we understand tools are only a piece of it or any other final tips that you have in this market >>space. Well, I want to kind of go go forward on on your statement earlier about server lists without calling, You know, any specific serverless technology out there specifically, but you're looking at those technologies you'll see, But we're now able to solve those business problems. Um, without actually even needing I t right. So no code low code platforms are very adjacent to you to do serverless movement. Um, and that's where you know, that's what really excites me of this at this point, simply because, you know, we no longer need actual hardcore engineering as a trait Teoh use i t to move the needle forward. And that's what I love about the cloud native movement that it used to be hard. And it's getting simpler in a way also more complex in a way. What we're paying someone else Teoh to solve those issues. So I'm excited to see where you know, no code low code survivalism those the kinds of technologies will take us in the next decade. >>Absolutely wonderful. When you have technology that makes it more globally accessible There, obviously, you know, large generational shifts happening in the workforce. You Thank you so much for joining us, >>actually, Sue. >>All right. And I guess the final call to action really is We are looking for those guests out there, so, you know, practitioners, startups people that have a strong viewpoint. You can reach out to me. My emails just stew Stu at silicon angle dot com where you can hit me up on the twitters. I'm just at stew on there. Also. Eso thank you so much for joining us. Planning to do these in General Weekly cadence. You'll find the articles that go along with these on silicon angle dot com. Of course. All the video on the cube dot net I'm stew minimum in and love to hear more about your cloud Native insights >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

from around the globe it's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat welcome back this is the cubes coverage of Red Hat summit 2020 of course the event happening digitally we're bringing in the guests from where they are around the globe happy to welcome back to the program and he's one of the keynotes because he's also many times cube alumni chris wright is the senior vice president and chief technology officer at Red Hat chris it is great to see you and we've got almost matching hats you have a real red hat fedora I've got one that the you know kubernetes Red Hat team OpenShift team gives out in Europe so in case anybody in the Red Hat community goes yes I've been a longtime member of the community I got you know I think my original Red Hat baseball cap probably 15 years ago but the Hat that I had is not one of the nice felt one it is they're pretty good to see here all right so we've gotta wait a little bit to get your keynote but so many topics I want to get to with you but you know of course as I mentioned me open and it's pretty obvious everyone's remote right now is kind of you know special times we are living in so bring us inside a little bit you know your your organization your group or community you know what what this means and how's everybody doing well I mean it'd be hard not to sort of acknowledge that there's a major global event happening right now and and kovetz really changing how we operate how we work from a RedHat perspective our number one priority is just employee safety and employ health and so we we were quick to send our folks home and have everybody to work from home and so what's interesting from a RedHat point of view I think and then even if you broaden that out to open-source communities the the distributed nature of open-source development and and specifically the engineering teams Red Hatter are pretty distributed kind of mirroring those open-source communities that we participate in so in the one hand you can kind of say well things haven't changed substantially in the sense of how do we how do we operate in upstream communities but on the other hand people working from home is it's a whole new set of challenges I mean my kids are 12 and 14 but you know say you have toddlers that's a real distraction or you have a working environment at home that's crowded with multiple people I mean it can really change how you approach your daily your your your daily work life um so creating that balance has been really important and for our teams we talk a lot about just think empathy think about how you're supporting one another and again when you broaden that out to the larger communities I think probably a really important aspect of open-source development is crossing corporate boundaries and being inclusive of such a broad set of contributors that there's a built-in resiliency associated with open source communities which i think is fantastic and then when you add to that sort of the the enthusiasm around just doing great things there's a lot of interesting activities that are collaborative in nature that are community based that are trying to address the Kovach crisis whether it's 3d printing of supplies or whether it's contact tracing applications that help people understand where they become across kovat or anything like that I mean a lot of cool stuff happening that's inspired by a real challenge to the entire globe yeah okay Chris one of my favorite things the last few years that summit has you know talk and he's cut talking to companies that are going through their journey of you know what we usually call digital transformation what we have always said from the research side is what separates you know people that have successfully gone through this is that data and they become data-driven and data is such an important piece of what they're doing well I think everyone has been getting a real crash course on data because not only businesses but you know governments and you know the entire globe now is you know watching the daily data trying to understand data sources you know bring us inside is to you know really the importance of data and you know where that intersects with everything that red hat is well the those are great examples I mean it's sometimes a little depressing but the the notion that data is a critical part of decision-making and access to quality data in real time is what helps us make better decisions more effective decisions and more efficient decisions and so when you when you look at the amount of data being produced it just keeps growing you know it's sort of on the exponential growth curve and when you look at the commensurate amount of compute power associated with all of that data it's also growing which is maybe an obvious statement what it says is we are gathering more and more data and the degree to which we can pull meaningful insights out of that data is really how much we can impact our companies you know value and differentiation and in the context of something like Cova that means vaccine discoveries and you know shortening times to field trials in in a more business context it's talking about how quickly you can respond to your customers needs and we see a really dynamic shift and the work force all working from home that puts a real strain on the infrastructure we're here supporting infrastructure builders and the amount of data that they can collect to efficiently operate infrastructure is critical at a time when people are distributed and getting access into the lab environments is challenging and so it you know I think there's a lot to be said for the amount of data that's being produced and then how we analyze it we think of it in terms of bringing data to applications and historically they kind of lived in separate I'd call them silos bringing the data sources and data processing and model development all onto a common platform is a really powerful thing that's happening in the industry today which is which is exciting so you know we were bringing data to be a central actors how I like to describe it yeah well look I'm really glad how you connected that discussion of data to the applications we as you know my background really is on the infrastructure side and the concern I have a lot of times as infrastructure people you know we talk about the bits and bytes we talk about the infrastructure but the only reason we have infrastructure is to run those applications and you know deal with that data it was hoping you can connect the dots for us the key note that all gave one of the main things he's talking about it where's the open hybrid cloud and I had a great discussion with him on the cube so with that setup of applications and data you know how does that intersect you know with what Red Hat calls the open hybrid cloud and what differentiates Red Hat's position there from some of the other discussions that we hear in the industry about cloud whether the open hybrid cloud is is a platform I think that's the best way to think of it and that platform it's a it's a platform that spans different types of infrastructures so that's public clouds that's on-premises data centers you know the enterprise zones themselves and I think important increasingly out to the edge so the notion of where you deploy isn't also coupled to what platform do I have to develop to in order to do that deployment and you know when we talk about the edge extending out to the edge that means you're getting closer to those data sources so bringing the data in doing the Associated inference and making decisions close to that data where latency really can matter is a big part of what that open hybrid cloud platform brings to to the market or to our customers and when you think about an application developer typically an application developer is trying to in a you know enable some some behavior or feature or functionality and the more we can drive use data to drive the behavior or drive the functionality the more personalized and application is the more intelligent the application is and so the connection between data the data sources the data processing the data science behind data cleansing and model generation and the associated models that can be easily accessed by applications that's the real power that's the real value that works to help develop for our customers so they can change their business we actually do this internally it's how we operate you know we collect data we use data to make decisions we use data in our product release process and the platform that we've created is a data processing and analytics and machine learning platform that we use internally and we also make that externally available as an open source project the open data hub so open and data and hybrid cloud are all intertwined at this point yeah one of the things that really has been highlighted to me at Summit this year is that connection you know we always knew Red Hat had you know strong developer community out there but you know you think back to Linux Linux has eyes directly into the application you look across the portfolio and it's not the app dev team over here and the infrastructure team over here and you know how do we operate all of these various pieces you know ansible you know has connections into all the various roles so what want you to just comment you know with kind of your you know CTO role and you you look over the entire portfolio but that discussion of you know how roles are changing how organization and make sure that they're not a bunch of various functions that aren't in sync but you know we're really coming together to help respond to the business needs and move forward in the speed that is needed in today's world well I think the the early stages of that were well captured with the DevOps phrase so bringing developers and operations closer together it's not always clear what that means and in some cases that the the notion of a of a platform and the notion of operating an application and then who operates the platform I think there there's been some question in the industry about exactly what that means we're thinking of it today to sort of stick with the buzzwords in the dev sac ops context and even what I would call AI dead set cops so in data and intelligence infused obses cops and the idea is developers are just trying to move rapidly so the degree to which the underlying infrastructure is just there to support application development is the operations teams need yeah that's what the operation seems trying to provide developers need at the same time access to tooling to consistency from test environments through to production environments and also access to those data models that I was talking about earlier so bringing that all together I think on the DevOps side or the dev Sackhoff side it's how can you build a platform that gives the right business specific guidelines and sort of guardrails that allow developers to move as quickly as possible without getting themselves into trouble and you know inadvertently creating a security vulnerability by pulling in an old dependency as a concrete example so bringing these things together I think is what's really important and it's a big part of what we're focused on the so operational side being infused with intelligence that's data in telemetry you're gathering from at the platform level and using models to inform how you operate the system and then if you go up a level to the application development sort of CIC deep pipeline where can you make intelligent recommendations to developers as they're pulling in dependencies or even writing code and then give easy access to the data science workflow to intercept so that what you're delivering is a well integrated model with an application that you know has a lifecycle and a maintenance that is well understood yeah so so Chris you know we've watched this is the seventh year we've had the cubit at Red Hat summit of course Red Hat itself has a large portfolio but not only Red Hat but you know the open source communities there are so many you know countless projects out there and you have a huge partner ecosystem you were just talking a bunch about DevOps you know I've got sitting at my desk you know one of those charts that shows you know DevOps tooling and it here's some of the platforms and here's all the various pieces and it's like you know I think there's only you know 50 or 80 different rules on that but how's Red Hat and the community overall how are you helping customers you know deal with this you know challeng world is you know we've got the paradox in place out there on it you know we understand that you know everybody's needs something a little bit different but how are we helping to give a little bit of structure and guidance in the the ever-changing world well I think it's one of the values of pulling content together if you think of a set of components being brought together as curation then we're helping curate the content and assembling pieces together it turns out is a is a lot of work especially when you want a lifecycle manage those components together so one basic thing that we're doing is bringing together an entire distribution of content so it's not just a single it's not just Linux it's not just kubernetes it's Linux and kubernetes engineered together with a set of supporting tooling for logging and monitoring and CI pipelines and all of that we bring together in a context that we opinionated or prescriptive what we also focus on is understanding that every Enterprise has a as its own legacy and history and set of investments that they've made so that process where we bring together an opinionated stack also needs to incorporate the flexibility so where can we plug in a CI pipeline that your your enterprise already has or where can we plug in your monitoring logging tools so that kind of flexibility allows us to bring together some best-of-breed components that we're finding in the open-source communities with flexibility to bring a whole set of ecosystem partners and if we go back to that open data have conversation there are a lot of data centric tools that we put in the open data have open source project we have commercial partners that can support things like say spark as a concrete example or tensorflow and so you know combine those those are open source projects but they're not coming from Red Hat they're coming from our ecosystem partners combine that all together into something that's engineered to work together and you're taking a lot of the friction out of the system so that developers can just move quickly all right so Chris give us a little bit of preview what what are people gonna see in the keynote and you know there's some people that are going to be watching this interview live but others will be efforts though I believe edge is one of the pieces we'll be touching on in the keynote but give us a little bit of what will we can expect well whatever you'll have to come to the keynote to really get the full full experience but what we're trying to to talk through is how data is really fundamentally changing business and if and we talk through that that's sort of story line starting with how it impacts red hats but you know at one level we're an enterprise we have our own business needs we use data to drive how we operate we also see that the platforms that we're building are really helpful for our customers to harness the value of data and change their own business and in the context of doing that we get to take a look at some ways where those business changes have industry-wide effects you know that we talk about things like 5g and artificial intelligence and where these things come together especially in edge computing really interesting space for these things all kind of converge and you know so kind of that that broad broad story line of data something that we use to change how we operate something that we build is from a platform point of view of our customers change how they operate and ultimately those changes have major impacts across the industry which is was which is pretty exciting pretty cool yeah I'm curious Chris you know I think back a few years ago I would have been interviewing you about like NFB and many of the themes it feels like we were talking about there we're really setting the table for the discussion we've been having for 5b is is that you know do you agree with that you know what would what's kind of the same and different from what we might have been looking at five years ago this it's very much and I love that question because it touches on something I think is really important it's very much an evolution and so in the tech world we talked so much about disruption and I think we overplay disruption I think what's interesting is technology evolution just consistently changing and moving forward gives rise at points in time to really interesting convergence of change that can be disruptive so as a concrete example NFV historically was about really improving the operational efficiencies of the service providers building networks and helping them move more rapidly so they could introduce new services most of that was focused on 4G most of that was focused on the core of the network today we're introducing 5g across the industry the discussions are moving technology wise into where do containers fit into this new world and the discussion at the network level is not only in the core but all the way out to the edge and then when you look at the edge where you have a portion of the network operating as software you have a platform like open ship that can also host enterprise or consumer facing education so this is really all of those early stages of NFV are culminating in this in a place today where the technology supports total software infrastructure for the network and utilizing that same cloud that you're running using to run the network to power enterprise or consumer facing applications that's pretty far away from where we were in the early days of NFB very much in evolution and then if you take it one step further and say orgy smart devices and cloud computing gave rise to a set of disruptive businesses ten years ago those businesses did not exist today we can't imagine life without them 5g device proliferations and not just smartphones but a whole set of new devices and edge computing are the ingredients that give rise to that same next wave of innovation where 10 years from now we can't really imagine what are the businesses that in 10 years we won't be able to imagine our lives without so we're at a really interesting inflection point and it's it's partially through this evolution of technology I think it's really exciting all right Chris last question for you there's always so many different pieces going on you know red hats really striking a nice balance there's not really as much of the habla and announcements but you know so much you know everything that does is built on open source so you know there's always things I run across it's like oh I need to you know look down the rabbit hole a little bit and what was that Farkas thing I think I'd heard that word before where all of the projects at the CN CF where you know Red Hat's involved in so you know in the last minute he or give us you know any areas where people said hey you know go google this go look up this you know project other cool things that you know you and your team are working on that you want to make sure to highlight well you you've mentioned one which is Korkis and not often time we talk about infrastructure I think it's a really cool project that is developer focus it's it's in the Java space and it's really bringing Java from an enterprise development platform into a modern language that can be used to build cloud native applications or even serverless functions I think serverless is a critical space so we've been talking for quite some time about all the ways serverless can be impactful we're in a place now where K native as a project is maturing and the the kind of world around it is getting more sophisticated so we have a serverless offer and as part of part of the open shift platform so you know making sure you're paying attention to what's happening in the K native space I think is is really important there's a whole new set of management challenges that will be in the security and a multi cluster space we're bringing those we're bringing technology to bear in this space and as RedHat we will bring those out as open source projects so looking for the open source communities around where you hear things like ECM or advanced container management or multi cluster managed environments which are the norm at this point you know those are some examples of things I think are important and then there's a world of stuff that's data focused there's all of the data science tools you know too many to really enumerate but that I think is an example where open-source is leading the space leading the industry in terms of where all where all those tools are developed and how the coverage and access developers have to data science tools all right well thank you so much Chris right always a pleasure to catch up with you and definitely looking forward to your your you know alright thank you all right lots more coverage check out the cube dotnet you can see all the interviews after they've gone out live they will be on demand all those projects Chris mentioned I've had deep dives on all of them so also hit up Chris square myself on Twitter if you have any follow up always love to hear the feedback I'm Stu minimun and as always thank you for watching the cube [Music]

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of Red Hat. Summit 2020 Brought to you by Red Hat. >>Hi, I'm stupid, man. And this is the Cube's coverage of the Red Hat Summit 2020 course. The event this year is digital. We're talking to Red Hat executives, partners and customers where they are around the globe, pulling them in remotely happy to welcome back to the program. One of our Cube alumni on a very important topic, of course, that red hat open shift and joining me is Clayton Coleman. Who's the open shift chief architect with Red Hat. Clayton, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you >>for having me today. >>All right, So before we get into the product, it's probably worthwhile that we talked about you know what's happening in the community and talking specifically, you know, kubernetes the whole cloud, native space. Normally we would have gotten together. I would have seen you at Cube Con Ah, you know, at the end of March. But instead, here we are at the end of April. Looking out, you know, more CN cf events later this year, but first Red Hat Summit is a great open source event and broad community. So would really love your viewpoint as to what's happening in that ecosystem. >>It's been a really interesting year, obviously. Ah, with an open source community, you know, we react to this. Um, like we always react to all the things that go on in open source. People come to the community and sometimes they have more time, and sometimes they have less time. I think just from a community perspective, there's been a lot of people you know. It's reaching out to their colleagues outside of their companies, to their friends and coworkers and all of the different participants in the community. And there's been a lot of people getting together for a little bit of extra time trying todo, you know, connect virtually where they can't connect physically. And it's been it's been great to at least see where we've come this year. We haven't had Cube con and that'll be coming up later this year. But Kubernetes just had the 1 18 release, and I think Kubernetes is moving into that phase where it's a mature, open source project. We've got a lot of the processes down. I'm really happy with the work that the steering committee, um, has gone through. We handed off the last of the bootstrap Steering Committee members hand it off to the new, fully elected steering committee last year, and it's gone absolutely smoothly, which has been phenomenal on the The core project is trying to be a little bit more stable and to focus on closing out those loose ends being a little bit more conservative to change. And at the same time, the ecosystem has really exploded in a number of directions, as as Kubernetes becomes more of a bedrock technology for, um, enterprises and individuals and startups and everything in between. We've really seen a huge amount of of innovation in the space, and every year it just gets bigger and bigger. There's a lot of exciting projects that >>I >>have never even talk to somebody on the Kubernetes project. But they have made and build and, uh, and solve problems for their environments without us ever having to be involved, which I think it's success. >>Yeah, Clayton, you know, one of the challenges when you talk to practitioners out there is just keeping up with the pace of change. Can really be challenging. Something we really saw acutely was Docker was rolling out updates every six weeks. Most customers aren't going to be able to change fast enough to keep up with things you love your view point both is toe really what the CN CF says, as well as how Red Hat thinks of products. So you talked about you know, kubernetes 1.18. My understanding, even Google isn't yet packaging and offering that version there. So there's a lag between things. And as we start talking about managing across lots of clusters, how does Red Hat think of this? How should customers think about this? How do we make sure that we're, you know, staying secure and keeping updated on things without getting run over by the constant treadmill of >>change? That the interesting part about kubernetes Is it so much more than just that core project? You know, no matter what any of us in the in the core kubernetes project or in the products that red hat that build around open shift and layers on top, there's a There's a whole ecosystem of components that most people think of this fundamental to accomplishing building applications deploying them, running them, Whether it's their continuous integration pipelines or it's their monitoring stacks, we really as communities has become a little bit more conservative. >>Um, I >>think we really nail down our processes for taking that change from the community, testing it. You know, we run tens of thousands of automation tests a week on the latest and greatest kubernetes code, given time to soak, and we did it together with all those pieces of the ecosystem and then make sure that they work well together. And I've noticed over the last two years that the rate of oops we missed that in KUBERNETES 1 17 that by the time someone saw it, people are already using that that started to go down for us, it really hasn't been about the pace of keeping up with the upstream. But it's about making sure that we can responsibly pull together all the other ecosystem components that are still have much newer and a little bit. How do we say, Ah, they are then the exciting phase of their development while still giving ah predictable, reliable update stream. I would say that the challenges that most people are going to see is how they bring together all those pieces. And that's something that, on open shift, we think of as our goal is to help pull together all the pieces of this ecosystem, Um, and to make some choices for customers that makes sense and to give them flexibility where it's not clear yet what the right choice might be or where different people could reasonably disagree. And I'm really excited. I feel like we've got our We have a release cadence down and we're shipping the latest Cube after it's had time to quickly review, and I think we've gotten better and better at that. So I'm really proud of the team on Red Hat and how they've worked within the community so that everybody benefits from that in that testing of that stability. >>Great. I'd like to teach here, you dig in a little bit on the application side what's happening from the work loads that customers are using? Ah, what other innovations happening around that space? And how is Red Hat really helping? Really, The the infrastructure team and the developer team work even closer together, like Red Hat has done for a long time. >>This is This is a great question. I say There's two key, um, two key groups coming together. People are bringing substantial important critical production workloads, and they expect things both to just work, but also to be able to understand it. And they're making the transition. Ah, lot of folks I talked to were making the transition from previous systems they've got. They've been running open shift for a while, or they've been running kubernetes for a while, and they're getting ready to move, um, a significant portion of their applications over. And so, you know, in the early days of any project, you get the exciting Greenfield development and you get to go play with new technologies. But as you start moving your 1st 1 and then 10 and then 100 of your core business applications from the EMS or from bare metal into containers, you're taking advantage of that technology in a responsible way. And so the the expectations on us as engineers and community members is to really make sure that we're closing out the little stuff. You know, no bug is too small, but it can't trip up someone's production applications. So seeing a lot of that whether it's something new and exciting like, Um uh, model is a service or ai workloads or whether it's traditional big enterprise transaction processing. APS on the other side on that development, um, model I think we're starting to see phase to our community is 2.0, in the community, which is people are really leveraging the flexibility and the power of containers, things that aren't necessarily new to people who had. We got into containers early and had a chance to go through a couple of iterations. But now people are starting to find patterns that up level development teams, so being able to run applications the same way on a local machine as in a production environment. Well, most production environments are there now, and so people are really having toe. They're having to go through all of their tools and saying, Well, does this process that works for an individual developer also work when I want to move it there, my production or staging environments to production, and so on. New projects like K native and tectonic, which are kubernetes native, that's just one part of the ecosystem around development. On top of kubernetes, there's tons of exciting projects out there from companies that have adopted the full stack of kubernetes. They built it into their mindset, this idea of flexible infrastructure, and we're seeing this explosion of new ways where kubernetes is really just a detail, and containers are just the detail and the fact that it's running this little thing called Docker down at the heart of it. Nobody talks about anymore, and so that that transition has been really exciting. I think there's a lot that we're trying to do to help developers and administrators see eye to eye. And a lot of it's learning from the customers and users out there who really paved the way the which is the open source way. It's learning from others and helping others benefit from that. >>Yeah, I think you bring up a really important point we've been saying for a couple of years. Now that you know KUBERNETES should get to the point where it's boring and boring in a way also cause it's gonna be baked in everywhere we saw from basically customers just taking the code, really spending a lot of their own things by building the stack to, of course, lots of customers have used open shift over the year to If I'm adopting Public Cloud more and more, they're using those services from that standpoint. Can you talk a bit about how Red Hat is really integrating with public clouds? And you know your architectural technical philosophy on that? And how might that be? Differ from some other companies that you might call a little bit more, you know, Cloud of Jason, as opposed to being deeply integrated with the public cloud. >>The interesting thing about Kubernetes is that while it was developed on top of the clouds, it wasn't really built from Day one assuming a cloud underneath it. And I think that was an opportunity that we really missed. And to be fair, we had to make the thing work first before we depended on these unreliable clouds. You know, when we started, the clouds were really hitting their stride on stability and reliability, and people were it was the hot was becoming the obvious choice to some of what we've tried to do is take flexible infrastructure is a given, um, assume that the things that the cloud provides should be programmed for the for the benefit of the developer and the application, and I think that's a that's a key trend is we're not using the cloud because our administration teams want us. We're using the cloud because it makes us more powerful developers. That enables new scenarios. It shortens the the time between idea reality. What we have done in open shift is we've really built around The idea of open shift running on a cloud should take advantage of that cloud to an extreme degree, which is infrastructure could be flexible. The machines in that cluster need to come and go according to the demands of the applications on top of it. So giving a little bit more power to the cluster and taking a little bit of way from the cloud I'm. But that benefits. That also needs to benefit that those who are running on premise because I think, as you noted, our goal is you want this ubiquitous kubernetes environment everywhere, and the operations teams and the development teams and the Dev Ops teams in between need to have a consistent environment and so you can do this on the cloud. But you don't have that flexibility on premise. You've lost something. And so what we've tried to do as well is to think about those ideas that are what we think of as quote unquote cloud native that starts with a mutable operating systems. It starts with everything being declarative and working backwards from, you know, I wanna have 15 machines and then the cluster or controllers on the cluster say, Oh, well, you know, one of the machines has gone bad. Let's replace it on the cloud. You ask for a new I'm cloud infrastructure provider or you ask the the cloud a p i for a new machine, and then you replace it automatically, and no one knows any better on premise. We'd love to do the same thing with both bare metal virtualization on top of kubernetes. So we have that flexibility to say you may not have all of the options, but we should certainly be able to say, Oh, well, this hardware is bad or the machine stopped, so let's reboot it, and there's a lot of that same mindset that could be applied. We think that'll, um if you need virtualization, you can always use it. But virtualization is a layer on top benefits from some of the same things that all the other extensions and applications on top of kubernetes competitive trump. So trying to pay that layer and make sure that you have flexible, reliable storage on premise through our SEF and red hat storage products, which are built on top of the cluster exactly like virtualization, is both on top of the cluster. So you get cloud native storage mixed in working with those teams toe. Take those operational best practices. You know there's well, I think one of the things that interests me is no. 1 20 years ago, who was running an early version of SEF wouldn't have some approach to run these very large things that scales organizations like CERN have been using SEF for over a decade at extremely large scales. Some of what our mindset is we think it's time to bake some of that knowledge actually into our software for a very long time. We've kind of been building out and adding more and more software, but we always left the automation and the the knowledge about how that software supposed to be run to the side. And so by taking that and we talked about operators. Kubernetes really enshrines. This principle is taking that idea, taking some of that operational knowledge into the software we ship. Um, though that software can rely on kubernetes open shift tries to hide the details of the infrastructure underneath and our goal. I think in the long run it will just make everybody's lives easier. I shouldn't have to ship you a SEF admin for you to be successful. And we think we think there's a lot more room here that's really gonna improve how operations teams work, that the software that they use day to day. >>So Clinton you mentioned virtualization is one of the topics in there. Of course, virtualization is very prevalent in a customer's data center environment today. Red Hat open shift, oftentimes in data centers, is sitting on BM ware environments. Of course. Recently, VM Ware announced that they have kubernetes baked into the solution, and red hat has open shift with red hat virtualization. Maybe, you know, without going into too much depth, and you probably have breakouts and white papers on this. But you know what kind of decision point should customers be thinking about when they're deciding? Do I do this in bare metal. Do I do it in virtualization? What are some of the, you know, just high level trade offs there when they need to make those decisions, >>I think it's, um I think the 1st 1 is Virtualization is a mature technology. It's a known quantity for many organizations, and so those who are comfortable with virtualization, I'd say, like any responsible, uh, architecture engineering team. You don't want to stop using something that's working well just because you can. And a lot of what I would see as the transition that companies on is for some organizations without a big investment in virtualization. They don't see the need for it anymore, except as maybe a technical detail of how they isolate insecure workloads. One of the great things about virtualization technology that we're all aware of over the last couple years is it creates a boundary between work loads and the underlying environment. That doesn't mean that the underlying environment and containers can't be as secure or benefit from those same techniques. And so we're starting to see that in the community, this kind of spectrum of virtualization all the way from the big traditional virtualization to very streamlined, stripped down virtualization wrappers around containers. Um, like some of the cloud providers use for their application environments. So I'm really excited about the open source. Community is touching each of these points on the spectrum. Some of our goals are if you're happy with your infrastructure provider, we want to work well with, and that's kind of the pragmatic of everyone's on a different step in that journey. The benefit of containers is no matter how fast you make of VM, it's never gonna be quite as fast, is it containers. And it's never gonna be quite as easy for a developer to run on their laptop. And I think working through this is there's still a lot of work that we as a community to do around, making it easier for developers to build containers and test them locally in smaller environments. But all of that flexibility can still benefit from virtualization under later or virtualization used as an isolation technology. So projects like Kata and some of the work that's being done in the open source community around projects like firecracker taking the same, um, open source ideas and remixing them a different points gives us a lot of flexibility. So I would say, um, I'm actually less interested in virtualization then all of the other technologies that are application centric and at the heart of it, a VM isn't really a developer centric idea. It's specifically an administrative concept that benefits the administrator, and developers can take advantage of it. But I think all of the capabilities that you think of when you think about building an application like scaling out and making sure patches are applied, being able to roll back separating your configuration on then all of the hundreds of other levels of complexity that will add around that like service MASH and the ability to gracefully tolerate failures in your database. These were where I think, um, virtualization needs to work with the platform rather than being something that dominates how we think about the platform. It's application first, not being first. >>Yeah, no, you're absolutely right that the critique I've always given, you know for a number of years now is if you look at virtualization, the promise was, let's take that old application that probably should have been updated and just shove it in a VM and never think about it again. That's not doing good things for the user. So if I look at that at one end of the spectrum away at the other end of the spectrum, trying not to think about infrastructure, you mentioned K native s 01 of the things that you know I've been digging in tryingto learn more about at Red Hat Summit has really been the open shift server lists. So give us the update on that piece. Um, you know, that's obviously very different discussion than what we were just having from a virtualization standpoint. Eso How does open shift look at server lists? How does that tie into what? You know, if I'm doing server, listen, Amazon versus you know some of the other open source options for serverless. How should I be thinking about that? >>There's a lot of great choices on the spectrum out there. I think one of the interesting things and I love the word spectrum here because cane native kind of sits in a spot where it tries to be, as the name says, it tries to be as kubernetes native as possible, which lets you tap into some of those additional capabilities when you need it. And one of the things I've always appreciate it is the more restrictive framework is usually the better. It is doing that one thing and doing it really well. We learned this with rails. We learned this with no Js. And as people have built over the years, the idea of simple development platforms. The core function idea is a great simple idea, but sometimes you need to break out of that. You need extra flexibility or your application needs to run longer or slow Start is actually an issue. One of the things I think is most interesting about K native and I see comers and user. I think this way it's a good point. Um, that gives you some of the flexibility of kubernetes and a lot of the simplicity of, um, the functions is a service, but I think that there's going to be an inevitable set of use cases that tie into that which are simpler where open organization has a very opinionated way of running applications, and I think that flexibility will really benefit K native. Whereas some of the more opinionated remarks around server lists lose a little bit of that. So that's one dimension that I still think a native is well positioned to kind of capture the broadest possible audience, which for kubernetes and Containers was kind of our mindset. We wanted to solve enough of the problems that you can solve. You can run all your software. We don't have to solve all those problems to such a level that there's endless complexity, although we've been accused of having endless complexity and Cooper days before, but just trying to think through what are the problems that everyone's going to have to give them a way out? I'm at the same time for us, when we think about prioritization functions is service about integration. It's about taking applications and connecting them, connecting them through kubernetes. And so it really depends on identity and access to data and tying that into your cloud environment. If you're running on top of a cloud or tying it into your back end databases, if your on premise, >>I >>think that is where the ecosystem is still working to bring together and standardize some of those pieces in kubernetes or on top of Kubernetes. What I'm really excited about is the team as much. You know, there's been this core community effort to get a native to a G, a quality. Alongside that, the open shift serverless team has been trying to make it a dramatically simpler action. If you have kubernetes and open shift, it's a one click action to get started with, Um Kay native and just like any other technology. How accessible it is determines how easy users find it to get started and to build the applications they need. So for us, it's not just about the core technology. It's about someone who's not familiar with Serverless or not familiar with kubernetes. Bring up an editor and build a function and then deploy it on top of open shift. See it scale out like a normal kubernetes application, not having to know about pods or persistent volumes or notes. And so these air, these are some of the steps. I've been really proud that the team's done. I think there's a huge amount of innovation that will happen this year and next year, as the maturity of the kubernetes ecosystem really grows up, we'll start to see standardized technologies, for I'm sharing identity across multiple clouds across multiple environments. It's no good if you've got these applications on the cloud that need to tie into your corporate L dap. But you can't connect your corporate held up to the cloud. And so your applications need 1/3 identity system. Nobody wants 1/3 identity system. And so, working through some of this thing where the challenges I think that hybrid organizations are already facing and our job is just to work with them in the open source communities and with the cloud providers partner with them and open source so that the technologies in kubernetes fit very well into whatever environment they run it. Alright, >>well, Clayton, really appreciate all the updates there. I know the community is definitely looking forward to digging through some of the breakout sessions reading all the new announcements. And, of course, we look forward to seeing you on the team participating in many of the kubernetes related events happening later this >>year. That's right. It's ah, gonna be a good year. >>All right. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm still Minuteman and as always thank you for watching you. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

la from Las Vegas it's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2019 brought to you by Amazon Web Services and Vinum care along with its ecosystem partners hello everyone welcome to the cube we're here live in Las Vegas for AWS reinvent 2019 I'm John Farrar your host is silicon Angles flagship the cube we're extract a signal noise leader in event coverage with day Volante my co-host and justin warren tech analysts Forbes contributor guru of cube host guys keynote for J&E jassie first of all I don't know how he does it he's just like continues hissing Marc loved the live music in there but a slew of announcements this is a reinvention of AWS you can tell that they're just essentially trying to go the next level on what the cloud means how they're gonna bring it to customers and you know they've been criticized for you know kind of nut I won't say falling behind I could say Microsoft's been probably praised more for catching up and it's been a lot of discussion around that the loss of the Jedi contract variety of enterprise wins Microsoft has the field Salesforce Google's just kind of retooling but Amazon clearly the leader with a little pressure for the first time in the rearview mirror they've got someone on their on their tail win and Microsoft's far back but this isn't a statement from from chassis and Amazon of okay you want to see the Jets we're gonna we're gonna turn on the Jets and blow pass everybody Jesse gets cocky self Justin what do you think yeah so a lot of signaling to enterprise that it's safe to come here it's this is where you can have everything that you need to get everything that you need done you can get all of it in one place so there there is a real signal there to say Enterprise if you want to do cloud there's only one place to do cloud enterprise customers they tried out some big names Goldman Sachs not a small enterprise they had all the classic born in the cloud but you know we put out this concept on I'm on our Silicon angle post called reborn in the cloud almost born-again enterprise you start to see the telegraphing of what their core message is which is transform just don't kick the tires and fall into the Microsoft trap go with em is on and transform your business model transform your miss not just run IT a better way than before well yeah I mean I'm impressed they got two CEOs the CEO of Goldman Sachs David Solomon the CEO of Cerner coming to the show it's kind of rare that the CEO of your customer comes to the show I guess the second thing I'd say is you know Amazon is not a rinse and repeat company at these shows although they are when it comes to shock and awe so they ticked the Box on shock and awe but you're right John they're talking a lot about transformation I sort of think of it as disruption here's what I would say to that Amazon has a dual disruption agenda one is its disrupting the horizontal technology stack and 2 its disrupting industries it wants to be the platform of which startups in particular but also incumbents can disrupt industries and it's in their DNA because it's in Amazon's DNA and I think it's the last thing I'll say as Amazon is the reach a Amazon retailers the you can buy anything here store and now to your point Justin Amazon Web Services is you can get AWS anywhere at the edge and a little mini data centers that they're built on outpost and of course in the cloud all right I want to get you guys reactions a couple things I saw and I want to just analyze the keynote one as we saw Jesse come out with the transformation message that's really more of their posture to the market you should be transforming we're gonna take Amazon as a center of gravity and push it out to the edge without post so kind of a customer company posture there on the industry then you had the announcements and I thought that the sage maker studio was pretty robust a lot of data and announcements so you had the transformation message a lot of core data and then they kind of said hey we're open we got open source databases we got kubernetes and multiple flavors a couple steers from the Twitter crowd on that one and then finally outpost with the edge where they're essentially you know four years ago Dave they said no more data centers in ten years now they're saying we're gonna push Amazon to the your datacenter so you know a posture for the company a lot of data centric data ops almost program and build I'm also DevOps feel to it what's your reaction to that I think the most interesting part for me was the change there was a bit of a shift there I think he made the statement of rather than bringing the data to the computer we want to bring the compute to the data and I think that's that's acknowledging reality that data has gravity and it's very difficult for enterprises particularly if you've already invested a lot in building a data Lake so being able to just pick that up and then move it to any cloud nothing let alone AWS just moving that around is is a big effort so if you're going to transform your business you have to kind of rethink completely how you address some of these issues and one of that would be well what if rather than let's just pick everything up and move it to cloud what if we could actually do something a little bit better than that and we can pick and choose what we want to suit our particular solution and your point Dave I think that's where Amazon strength comes from is it they are the everything store so you can buy whatever you want be at this tiny little piece that only five companies need or the same thing that everyone else on the planet needs you can come and buy everything from us and that's what I think they're trying to signal to an organization that says look if you want to transform and you're concerned that it'll be difficult to do we've got you we've got something here that will suit your needs and we will be able to work with you to transform your business and we're seeing you know Amazon years ago we wouldn't talk about hybrid and now they're going really all-in on hybrid and it's not outpost is no longer just this thing they're doing with VMware it's now a fundamental piece of their infrastructure for the edge and I think the key point there is the the edge is going to be one with developers and Amazon is essentially bringing its development platform to the edge without posts as the the underpinning and I like the strategy much much better than I like what I'm seeing from some of the guys like HP and Dell which is they're throwing boxes you know over the fence with really without a strong developer angle your thoughts I mean my my big takeaway was I think this is key knows about a next-generation shift on the business model but that's the transformation he didn't come out and say it I said it in my post but I truly believe if you're not born in the cloud or reborn in the cloud you'll probably be out of business and as a startup were to ask them of the VCS this question how do you go after and target some of those people who aren't gonna be reborn in the cloud to have the scale advantage but the data announcements was really the big story here because we look at DevOps infrastructure as code programming infrastructure we've seen that that that's of now an established practice now you start to see this new concept around data ops some people call it AI ops whatever but Dana now the new programmability it's almost a devops culture - data and I think what got my attention the most was the IDE for stage maker which kind of brings in this cool feature of what everyone was which is I want machine learning but I can't hire anybody and I got to make I got a democratized machine learning I got to make application developers get value out of the data because the apps need to tap the data it's got to be addressable so I think this is a stake in the ground for the next five to ten years of a massive shift from increasing the DevOps mission to add a layer making that manageable multiple databases he's totally right on that it's not one database if you want time series for real-time graph for you know network constructs it's pick your database you know that shouldn't be it inhibitor at all I think the data story is real that's the top story in my mind the data future what that's going to enable and then the outpost is just a continuation of Amazon realizing that the center of the cloud is not the end game it's just the center of gravity and I think you gonna start to see edge become really huge I mean I count ten into ten purpose-built databases now and jesse was unequivocal he said you gotta have the right database tool for the right job you're seeing the same thing with their machine learning and AI tools it's been shocking dozens and dozens of services each with their own sort of unique primitives that give you that flexibility and so where you can disagree with the philosophy but their philosophy is very clear we're gonna go very granular and push a lot of stuff out there I think there's two bits at play there that I can see you know I think you're right on the data thing and something that people don't quite realize is that modern data analysis is programming like it's code your data scientists know how to code so there was a lot of talk there about notebooks going in there like they love their notebooks they love using different frameworks to solve different problems and they need to be able to use for this one I need tens of flow for another one I might need MX net yeah so if you couple that that idea that we need to it's all about the data and you couple that with developers and AWS knows developers really really well so you've got modern enterprises lot wanting to do more with the data that they have the age or business problem of I've got all this information I need to process I need to do be out bi I need to do data analysis and you couple that with the Pala that iws has with developers I think it's a pretty strong story then you know in my interview with Jesse I asked him the question and I stole the line from Steve Moe Mulaney from aviatrix you take the tea out of cloud native it's cloud naive and I think what I've been seeing is a lot of customers have been naive about what cloud is and it's actually been buying IT and so they really don't are not sensitive to the capabilities message so I asked Jeff see I'm like you got these capabilities that's cool if you want to go to the store and buy everything or look at everything and buy what you want and construct and transform check no problem I buy that however some customers just want a package solution and Amazon has not always been great on having something packaged for customers so he kind of addressed that and this might be an Achilles heel for Amazon as Microsoft has such entrenched sales sales presence that they might be pushing a solution that frankly customers might not care about capabilities we did see one bit where there was a little bit of a nudge towards is fees and and systems integrators and I think that that really for me is there needs to be a lot more work done by Amazon there because that's what Enterprise me enterprise is used to dealing with systems integrators that will help them to use the raw materials that ados provides to solve that promote you said there are two segments of developers and customers one that wants all the low level building blocks and others want simpler faster results with abstractions aka packaging so they're going down the road but again they're not shy don't like hey we're just going to continue to build we're not going to try to move off our trajectory they're gonna stay with adding more power and frankly some digs at snowflake I fought with red shift and I thought the dig to the kubernetes community with we code our own stuff wink wink we don't have to slow down was a nice jab at the CN CF I thought because he's saying hey you know what we're not in committees deciding features which is the customers and implementing them so a kind of a jab well sure that's gonna rapid a I would say the snowflake is sort of a copycat separating compute from stores that's what snowflakes has been doing forever but he did take direct jabs at IBM Oracle and obviously Microsoft with with Windows so I like to see that you know usually Jessie doesn't do that it's good take the gloves so much so many announcements out there you got to go to silk and angled comm will have all the stories but one of the top stories coming into the reinvent that we didn't hear anything about but if you squint through and connect the dots on Jessie's keynote it is pretty evident what the strategy is and that's multi-cloud so I'll see multi-cloud is a word that Amazon is not using at all onstage as you can tell they don't really they're in well they're one cloud they don't really care about the other clouds but their customers do so guys multi cloud is a legit conversation how they get multi cloud is debatable acquisition sprawl by the end of the day multiple clouds is reality I think Jessie was kind of predicting and laying down some early narratives around the multi cloud story by saying hey we have more capabilities we're faster we're doing more stuff so I think he's trying to cede the base on the concept of hey if you want to go look at other clouds try to go apples to apples NIT that other than that he didn't really address at all multi-cloud what do you guys think about multi cloud yeah what it's pretty much that if you're gonna have multiple clouds at least one of them's gonna be AWS so they're gonna get some of your money if we came a bi can't get all your money I'll get at least get some of your money that's reasonable but I think part of the multi cloud conversation is that enterprises are actually trying to clarify their existing way of doing things so cloud isn't a destination it's not like a it's not a physical location it's a state of mind it's a way of operating things an enterprise that that's that's the transformation part that enterprises are trying to do so transform the way that they operate themselves to be more cloud like so part of the multi cloud piece I think that people are kind of missing is well it's not just Amazon or some of its competitors its existing on-site infrastructure and making that into a cloud which i think is where something like outpost becomes a really strong proposition and I've said a million times multiplied cloud is more of a symptom than it is a strategy that'll start to change they will see an equilibrium there you know right cloud for the right job but today it's a problem that CIOs are asked being asked to clean up the crime scene all right let's wrap up by summarizing the keynote each of you guys give me your take on I'll start I think this was a inflection point for AWS and Jesse in the sense of they now know they have to go the next gen loud it's Amazon enterprise it's data it's outpost it's all these things it's truly next-gen I think this is going to be all about data it's all gonna be about large-scale infrastructure and data scaling and with edge and outpost I think is really an amazing move for them in the sense that's gonna probably put in motion another five to ten years of continuing architectural reshipping and I think that if you're not born in the cloud or reborn in the cloud you're gonna be naive to the fact that you're not gonna have the capabilities to be success when I think that's going to be an opportunity for entrepreneurs and for companies pivoting into enterprises so I think this goes will go might go down as one of the most pax keynotes but I think it'll look back as one of the instrumental transitions for Amazon so I think he did a good job beginning and to rush 30 announcements in three hours marathon but overall I thought he did a great job I think I would agree Jesse always does a good job he's giving a message to you know CEOs as opposed to the CIO and he had two CEOs on stage I thought there was quite a gap between you know that message of transformation and then sort of geeking out on all the new services so there's still some work to be done there but I think it's a lot of developers in the audience I'm seeing them tell your boss to get on the train it's a very hard keynote to serve both audiences but so it's a start but there's a lot of work to be done there Justin yeah I agree with that I think this is probably one of the first keynotes maybe last year but certainly this year there's like AWS is very serious about enterprise and is trying to talk to enterprise a lot more than it ever has it still talks to developers but we didn't see anywhere near as much interesting in kind of the startup ecosystem it's like no no cloud is for serious companies doing serious work and I think that we're just going to see Amazon talking about that more and more and more because that's where all the money is yeah next-generation cloud new architectures all about the enterprise guys this is the cube opening day for three days of wall-to-wall coverage keynote analysis from Andy Jessie and Amazon Andy Jessie will be on Thursday at 3 o'clock we got a lot of top Amazon executives will who'll help us open and unpack all these to make mega announcements stay with us for more cube coverage and go to Silicon angle comm cube net for the videos be back back after this short break [Music]

[Music] everyone welcome to the special cube conversation here to talk about the big announcements big news big concepts and big trends happening Cisco live in Barcelona I'm John for your host of the cube we're here with Fabio Gauri senior director cloud solution marketing at Cisco I've been great to see you things are spending time to me to unpack all the exciting news in Barcelona great stuff thank you thank you for having me John so one of the things that's happening with Cisco we've covered certainly we've been reporting and reporting are other outlets as well and you guys have been transforming and continuing to innovate Cisco has transformed itself into the next level building on your successes we've been covering that and that's been all about the clouds been all about networking going you know software driven you know software powered network operations DevOps the whole thing is now infiltrating into into the new model but it's clear now there's no debate that on-premise data centers on-premise environments of IT service providers the entire old you know computing industry is connecting with the cloud that's been kind of validated and we've been staring at that for a couple of years and now everyone's starting to take action this is a key theme here in Barcelona for you guys and we heard you see you talking about it last year at Cisco live in North America that transition to cloud validated across the voice or Andy chassis the CEO of AWS actually announced an on-premise device hybrid cloud has been validated so public cloud and on-premise and now visibility into what kubernetes is enabled with multi cloud mm-hmm this is the new normal describe that impact in the marketplace what does it mean for customers what do they do what what is it what does this mean when now enterprises are seeing on-premise and cloud coming together absolutely well you know if you think about it you gotta start from the application so if you take a step back right we've been talking about digitization for so long but what does that ultimately mean right people need to build more and more applications to digitize their their business processes their customer experience and so on and so forth ultimately what we're seeing is that this applications are becoming exceptionally distributed right because they go what it makes sense whatever the data is whatever the user is you may have low latency needs you may have actually just you know the right needs to go all the way to the cloud in reality you have a mix of this kind of needs but workloads are distributed and people want to harness this multi cloud world and that's what we're seeing I love these chips it's kind of like people have been living on two sides of the street you know old way new way it's clear that the migration to this new model cloud is the new way and that's been validated again so you've got the old way in new way describe in your mind the old way and the new way from Cisco because if you look at the history of Cisco the dominance and the success I had and recently had an opportunity to be John Chambers at his house and he talked about that that dynamic of how Cisco is so dominant the culture and then going the next level the datacenter you guys have a great success networking edge this is New York or business yeah that's still relevant with the cloud in the new way so talk about what's changed all the way new way Francisco I'll give you a try so fundamentally if you if you if you remember where we're coming from we are coming from an era where we've been seeing infrastructure kind of dictating application requirements through the other way around as well but you had an application you will buy specific hardware networking and everything else including firewalls for a specific infrastructure right so that era actually is not going away is there because it's built an immense amount of legacy that you can not all of a sudden throw away however the new world is a world where you see applications fundamentally going pretty much across multiple type of domains not just to do the center domain anymore but here comes the cloud we have a lot of applications that are going to the edge if you have a branch office right you may want to take your application over there because it's simpler it's it's sometimes it's more economic you don't need to move all the data and still you can have those applications collaborating with your data center with your cloud so what you're now seeing is a completely from world where applications want the infrastructure to be programmable and easy accessible and still extremely secure that's interesting in the old way was you know the you dictate applications you can only do as much as the network and the infrastructure will let you to do yeah and then now as infrastructure becomes more abundant yeah data tsunamis have spent a lot of data's coming in so that's why the storage industry never docking it's always growing storage industries always growing servers as always need for compute but as is more abundance than that it almost as a limitless opportunity for applications so it's not a you know kill the old and bring in the new it's more of a foundational hold as now foundational it is literally next level thing so kubernetes service meshes these programmable policy-based abstractions are showing the way and that's a network construct policy is a network concert so the first time we're seeing is the coming together of the app market with infrastructure absolutely and if you think about it even a step before the apps people have when they build application they have a business intent right let's make an example you take healthcare application right you want in a hospital you want the doctors to be able to access you know the full extent of the data of a customer record for instance you may not want the nurses doing the same thing or for instance you don't want the nurses and the doctors to get access to the financial system of the hospital so this is actually a business intent that that given application will have to respect well the infrastructure can and has to cope with this kind of requirements by delivering the appropriate kind of segmentation right so that you'll be able to ensure that what the application wants to do the infrastructure delivers what has changed in the on premise and cloud world in your mind because to have that kind of coordination and you guys are have announced here it's some great announcements around seamless end-to-end as a theme we're seeing you're seeing hyper convergence anywhere are you seeing application centric infrastructure concepts everywhere but when you actually go into the hood and look at how complex it is it's almost magical in the sense that it's going on its I know it's hard work and people who know networking know it's hard what are the innovations what's enabling that what is the key driver that's making you guys connect an on-premise data complex data center environment that is now edges private networks hybrid private cloud IOT edge enterprise edge campuses the old stuff now with cloud what are the key linchpins well hey I'm gonna take on one of the the words that you use complexity people are looking for the opposite of complexity people are looking for simplicity easy to say more difficult to do but what sits between complexity and and and turning it into a more simple kind of architecture is automation so what you have to have is fundamentally an infrastructure that becomes automated programmable that takes the business intent or the application intent as an input and actually with a closed-loop system fundamentally monitors and gives you the assurance okay the implementation the assurance that actually what you want to do gets delivered by the infrastructure and this has to be literally annalistic and cross-domain kind of architecture what do I mean with cross-domain you're going out of the data center you're going out to the edge you're now going to the cloud this should be seen as a cohesive almost fluid environment where you can actually push your policy your security models right and transform in this highly fragmented the architecture into a set of domains or a multi domain architecture that you can control that you can automate as if it was all yours so to speak even though in the cloud for instance you're going into a domain that you don't control end-to-end so big concept here being discussed in Barcelona is multi domain you just get that explain that a little bit and then take that to where cloud integration comes in because the other thread that we're seeing here is multi cloud yeah so multi domain multi-cloud the same are they different what's the nuance points there yeah again the the critical point is let's think applications applications want to go and it's convenient to go into multiple domains right depending on what you want to do what you want to access to you wanna access clouds innovation from whatever they come from so that's why we have a multi cloud world the data center is still there is critically important you have a lot of applications databases that are still there and now we're seeing the big new shiny object which which is more and more super Robo remote office branch office applications where for instance IDC believes 30% of applications are going to be deployed into this kind of environments so your problem is now connecting all of this together right and because the applications are going anywhere are the designer strategy is that the data center needs to follow the applications and support them wherever they go so it's a data center anywhere kind of kind of strategy the data center has to flex and provide that yes be ready for anything basically from from applications what you're getting at and all the all the plumbing and all the all the intelligence underneath it have to be reactive to what the application wants absolutely a vocation doesn't have to get into the provisioning or any kind of policy because that's the infrastructure as code DevOps the point is that that kind of absolutely the application has an intent right there's also application policy etcetera but it needs to be translated into infrastructure policy where we've been talking about it a minute ago when we were doing the the healthcare kind of example right well we've been super excited in collaborating with you guys on kubernetes we have a special section on silicon angle called the kubernetes special report that's evolving into multi cloud special reports the folks watching Silicon angle comm check out the multi classify syrup or that should be up and yeah by now it was the COO Bernays but ton of interest was seeing startups coming out of the kubernetes you're seeing a cloud native world CN CF and Linux foundation promoting tons of great ecosystem development pulling together those developers want more infrastructure and so that and they wouldn't want to deal with it right so this is where you the cloud strategy has been paying off for you guys you guys have had done deals with Google as your AWS s ap Red Hat among others you guys are well poised for this talk about cloud Center that's a big piece of the story here yeah cloud Center suite a new capabilities talk about the impact of cloud and cloud Center yeah so let me let me let me take us the buck if you want and tell you a little bit more about what we're announcing here right because it's a pretty big announcement I mentioned at the center anywhere what does it mean right well of course our data center portfolio is sent around two big components the first one is networking right particular application center came first structure a CI based on the Nexus 9 K kind of architecture and the second one is our computing portfolio particularly you know the hyper-converged infrastructure cisco hyper flex that's of course you know an extremely efficient way of condensing you know what you need to make it very flexible in your application implementation where we have two major news here right in this two areas and the third is absolutely what you were asking for which is Cloud Center so with a CI and it's interesting because they're going into two if you want different directions when it comes to the small T cloud domain AC I was already visualized in the previous releases sorry application centric infrastructure is fundamentally cisco in ten base networking for the data center okay it gives you program ability of the infrastructure it gives you segmentation gives you security and a high degree of automation capabilities exactly okay continue and so in the previous in the previous if you want developments releases of ACI what we've been doing was to aggressively visualize a CI right so that you will have constructs like virtual poles and virtual leaves to rescale your data center implementation to the edge now where we're going with this new announcement is exactly on the other side which is we're standing ACI to the cloud to usher in AWS so that the construct that you have typically on Prem under your control such as tenants EP G's and things of this nature will be translated into the equivalent construct in AWS whether it's VP C's or security groups and the likes the two things end up fundamentally corresponding so now we have one construct that extends from the edge to the data center to the cloud that's a pretty big deal and what does that mean to the customer just give an example it means a high degree of automation security and control on the resources right so that you can impose one policy it propagates all across the board one way of monitoring you know the data center flows and discovering for instance if you have if you have any kind of security threat monitoring application performance thanks to the inter so this fully checks this hybrid cloud box this ship I say yes is one a hybrid deployment this checks the box saying I can operate and say whatever cloud and on-premise in the datacenter with a CI both places without changing any code is it seamless what's the what's that well with a CI is gonna come with a specific software this is all software that's that's the beauty of it right it's it's in line with the transformation the company that you were referring to it's all software and it goes into AWS and uses of course all the api's to connect 2d to the AWS resources that you were you're you're acquiring from AWS right so that's one big bucket of news the second bucket o news is hyper flex that's actually heading to the edge because what we're seeing is more and more applications that have components of the application itself or even entire applications that are going into remote office branch offices and the reason are many right it could be cost reason it could be did a gravity reason it could be just low latency reason right we all know that you know to go back and forth from the cloud that's not always convenient as well as if you lose the connectivity your branch is dead right so you have to you need to have business continue it in all of this and so it doesn't mean that you don't want the cloud you want a collaboration across this again fluid sort of infrastructure so I purflex come with a very efficient kind of kind of fun factor over there now it's either flex edge and its control Emilia this is that because you have many remote offices and branch offices is controlled from the cloud with cisco inter side which is of course our console and cloud system to manage all these hand points no just hyper flex but also UCS so when you think of this now you understand what do we mean with the dissenter anywhere because we're taking both our networking and our computing platforms anywhere the application needs them right and the third component which actually is where your questions started from is application lifecycle management in this kind of infrastructure becomes even more of a problem right it is extremely complicated now to have applications in multiple clouds and then in your data center and to the in India JH and in you know all these different kind of places so what we've done with cloud center which is our flagship club management and an orchestration system is two big things first we have expanded the functionalities by adding new modules especially the cause optimizer the helps operations team at Center suite now it's the cloud center suite and I'll explain you in a moment why we remove the branding slightly from cloud center to cloud center suite because we highly modularize the software and and make it and made it really much more easy to consume I'll go there in a moment but going back to what is new first of all is cost optimizer right that's that's brand new and it helps Operations team to right-size the workload to pick up the the best instances in the cloud are you using to actually minimize your investment or reach your your goal of performance and cost right that's one big thing the second one is that we're adding a very smart so called action Orchestrator which is a workflow manager that helps you automate in there tear connection of your cloud management system to all the other systems right some of these plugins and integrations come outer-box particularly with the higher level tiers of licensing such as with service now for instance or we give you already built-in integration with cisco inter side or UCS director which is the infrastructure manager for Cisco infrastructure but you can use the kind of platform and module to build your own integrations with the other systems that's very important because the cloud management system doesn't exist in isolation right it needs to integrate with all the other IT management solution that you have on Prem and that's one big thing the second big thing as you said before when you said about the suite is the fact that because we have written all of this new software and cuber Nerys right this is highly scalable highly portable so now we can give you different tiers of licenses you can start very small as small as around $50,000 right for subscription service and you can actually bite subscription on pram or that's big news you can buy Nate software-as-a-service so cloud center is now Asaf offering yes available when it's gonna be so all the subscription use the new software is going to be available literally a next month in a few days for now right in February and the SAS version is gonna be available in North America in March so right away for Europe of course due to the GDP our implementation our customers will have to wait until the summer but it's pretty immediate and you hear a bit of an extra work done yeah okay so bottom line me on the cloud Center suite what is the the purpose is it to be the high level management suite how is it connecting into other systems so if I have all these different management tools out there when Cisco and others is it connecting into am i connecting up and you just explain quickly you know the purpose of it yeah works so really the goal of Cloud Center is to do a salute three things the first one is a he wants to simplify cloud management and how it does it right one of the key patents that we acquire together we clicker right click a cloud center when we brought them in more than two years ago was the really unique way that they have to model applications right the way that people are managing cloud management and an organization is still extremely manual I mean many customers are still kind of doing scripting we have cases of customers that are scripting like 1200 lines of codes just to upload a piece of software onto the cloud we think the approach should be different right the approach should be you should be able to model that application your application model wants and then thanks to cloud API so we have 16 different API into a cloud integrations with AWS our Google you name it right I BM and the likes we realize of course on parameter private cloud once you model your application you can use any of these other clouds as a target for implementation okay that allows you to have a very very effective cloud management solution because don't risk to make mistakes you leave the tool so you said it's written in kubernetes absolutely we scraped all this now we program all this in Cuban Eddie's so you may tell us hey you're walking the talk absolutely doing that and that's very in that sow actually we can do it on Prem in a Cuban IT infrastructure by the way if you need one we have the Cisco cloud center platform a hyper flex underneath to do it or you can buy from the cloud because we're uploading a little dot to the cloud you guys have done a good job at kubernetes just as a side note you guys done the work it's doing the cloud integrations and I think wasn't she about kubernetes unlike other trends I've seen in some of these open-source projects some hype comes up and then it kind of drops off or it gets hyped up and it's too hard to roll out or use it cost too much and so people actually using kubernetes for not just standing it up they're actually pulling it for a purpose so congratulations on that I think it's a real good thank you for thank you know we're a big believer in to this so simplifying really multiplayer management is one big thing reducing time to value is another big thing because with the integrations and the ability you know to integrate with the other tools you can put it in production very very quickly and then it's incredibly easy to consume you can start small and grow up so I did a little checklist here I want to just run this by you and then I'm going to ask you a question around what all this means to your to your customer base because I'm sure the world's changing we've done a lot of kind of you know surveys and interaction with a lot of network guys to kind of spiel out how the markets going get your reaction so interesting thing you guys have a this builder model very similar to Amazon you know toolkits for cloud builders you guys are really investing heavily and it's a security you got stealthWatch tetration analytics you've got app dynamics and tetration as well datacenter hyper flex UCS Nexus check cloud apps WebEx I know what else is in there there's also cloud apps cloud native apps which you're connecting into management cloud center container platform and IOT kinetic and networking the edge Meraki cloud service route or bunch of other things so you guys are building quite the portfolio on here right so given that you guys have that security to network and kind of end-to-end with the application centric infrastructure are kind of expanding and intent based networking combined cloud seems to be kind of the end-to-end is the theme it really is it's it's again end to end and across multiple domains because that's the thing that doesn't come across with end to end is the fact that you need to cross different domains that are exceptionally different from from each other and so having consistent policies and a single security model having one mean of networking and securing all this in a containerized world which which is where we're progressively going that's everything and you know it's not me saying it but if you look at the CN CF surveys they'll tell you the securing and working containers is one of the toughest things so I got to ask you that the tough question totally makes sense you got my buy-in on it I totally believed in the vision making it work okay making it smart and making it at scale are the three kind of things I'm looking at give us your take on how you guys are looking at those three kind of you know checkpoints you got to get this up and running so one make it work you know end-to-end mobile domains yeah make it intelligent that's data smarter you know automation kicks in and I'll see scaling it up but you know with all the checkbox security everything else so take us through the strategy yeah and what you guys are thinking there and and the impact with that in mind so the person on the other side your customer the buyer and customer Sisko to manage it that's that's a big sea change yeah and the benefits are pretty lucrative on the other side if you can pull this up yeah yeah upon three big aspects so first of all we mean we've been talking about architectures but architectures doesn't mean that you shouldn't have Best of Breed products right it starts from there those are the atomic components of any strategy right you gotta have best of the products now these products need to integrate into an architecture that solves true business problems such as the intent base you know architecture that we've been talking about the third aspect is actually how you help customers to be successful and I will love to call out our partner strategy right which for I would say for as long as 30 years has been Cisco's critical differentiator and I think this is an enormous asset especially when you look at the number one problem in IT out there which is not kubernetes and it's no cloud is actually lack of talent people don't have the skillset and talents so relying on an ecosystem that helps you expanding what you need because you don't have it inside its fundamental importance on you guys absolutely but this is a critical asset and you know we're doing a lot of investments also on the customer experience side of the house with our leader Maria Martinez the staking actually this customer experience so approach to the next level more and more it's about these architectures also being cloud a touch so you heard me talking about inter-site it doesn't come by chance right the more you can rely on on this kind of architectures the more you can harvest analytics you can do cross correlation across multiple networks and domains and figure out what is going wrong that's something that providers of pinpoint products just cannot even dream of delivering as final question for first of all thanks for spending the time and chatting and he was going to be rolling out a lot of content we're gonna be following what's going on with on your end to really like Cisco's vibe you guys are very transparent and collaborating appreciate being there working with you guys final question if someone's watching this I'm a Cisco customer you know we've been talking about the network I which I've talked to a couple you know and surveying some some enterprises where you know the network's they've done the heavy lifting that's been part of the computing industry you know networking compute they've been running the show and really have moved the needle campus networking the list goes on and on but now that foundation set we're going to a whole nother level it's almost like a sea change on the personality side persona of the people who've built it out and now have to build the next generation yeah and my relevant am I gonna be the mainframe guy am I gonna be leading the charge or may be left behind there's a lot of cognitive dissidence around decisions so that go here should I go there architectures so there's a lot of psychology and also decision-making that's gonna be determined by your core audience mm-hmm that person out there is your target audience they're thinking about these things because they want to do well and they don't wanna be left behind what do you say to that audience about Cisco now the opportunity for them personally their ability to one grow their skill gaps or have an impact to being a key change agent for this next generation what do you say that that person out there about the Cisco and the opportunity for them it's it's a very big question I would split a question in two parts first of all is what is your advice to IT professionals right how can they not just survive but thrive and be the heroes of this this transition and it's pretty simple actually you have to understand what your business wants we've been talking about how do you close this gap between of infrastructure and application but in other terms is covering the gap between what you do and what the business wants you've got to understand that right so that's number one second part of the question is okay considering this is cisco the right partner for me and the answer of course from cisco standpoint is approximately yes because our entire company strategy is wrapped around this concept of intent-based architecture where our goal is to map the business intent into the infrastructure underneath and that's exactly your core business mr. IT professional right so I see this as a as a marriage in heaven right in terms of where I see really the talent need for IT going right in IT professionals and where the company is going right if we if we're right and I think we are this is gonna be a great ride and not a threatening one I think everything's lining up you're getting clear visibility into what the role of cloud is the scale PC and personal links are just undeniable and that the role of technologists now are super important there's no jobs really going away they're shifting this is this is the reality this is kind of what the exciting opportunity it is but but again it's about bringing IT very close to the business in the end I believe it's just it's just gonna be continuity between what we call today line of business and IT it's just a company that wants to win in the marketplace right wants to get faster efficient usual kind of you know terminology but you know does this gap is gonna go away Fabio thank you for taking the time to share this conversation I'm John furry this is a cube conversation here at Barcelona live go live Europe back to the cube coverage go to the cube dotnet to check out all the live coverage and cube interviews in Barcelona I'm here with Fabio Korey senior director cloud solutions marking Cisco I'm John for the cube thanks for watching [Music] you

live from Las Vegas it's the cube covering AWS reinvent 2018 brought to you by Amazon Web Services Intel and their ecosystem partners welcome back to Las Vegas everybody I'm Dave Villeneuve my co-host David Flair you want to the cube the leader in live tech coverage this is our third day of coverage at AWS reinvent 2018 our sixth year covering this event that keeps getting bigger and bigger Dave at 53,000 people amazing place is still jam we still barely have our voices 18 Cockroft is here he's a vice president of cloud architecture and strategy very well known in the industry q Balam thanks so much for coming back on thank you yeah it's the I've been to all of the reinvents we've been far as the customer and then we've been off of one but we watched remotely and hung on every word you know back when there wasn't a lot of information about a DMS now it's like too much information to process it's gonna take us months to sort through it all but at any rate it's it's a phenomenal opportunity for us to to learn to share to inspire folks and you do with some great work talk a little bit about you know some of the fun stuff you're working on and in your current role yeah I have a few different things I do one is one part of my role as I go around the world giving keynotes AWS summits but mostly I call it doing one of Ogle's impressions his deck and I get to presented around the world so we have to digest all of this stuff into a 90-minute deck that we can take to around the world that's a you know what do you leave out there's some it's it's harder and harder every year so that's a lot of fun but the team that I run for AWS I mean recruiting and running is around open-source right and we do we sponsor various events we members of various foundations we make contributions to projects and have been helping that by hiring people from the open-source communities into AWS to help help some of the edge over service teams with their launches of open-source related projects so what I've got what's been happening this year is had like a hundred blog posts related to open source lots of tweets lots of activity lots of events like ask on all things open in coupe car so be there in a couple of weeks exciting to you guys probably again but this week there are a few of the launches where we got quite deeply involved we did a blog posts on the open source blog most at the same time as Jeff fires okay here's the service and here's the open source part of it this is how you contribute and this is what's going on so we've had some fun with that so but it was it two years ago when we first met you've just been on the job for about a month about that particular time and you laid out what you wanted to do in terms of from your previous experience about how you wanted to turn AWS into a an open-source contributor how would you rate yourself in two years I think we've made some good progress really made me a AWS was making contributions to open source but had nobody talking about it and nobody know it was nobody's job to go out and explain what we were doing so that what part of the problem two years ago it was actually more happening so most people knew about but we were just not telling the story and it said it wasn't coming across well and the culture and the culture I mean it was spotty like some parts of AWS were doing a lot of open source other parts we're kind of not really seeing it as a priority so by talking a lot more about it we kind of get a more uniform acceptance across AWC huge organized just there but Amazon as a whole we are actually telling that story the story a much broader story than just AWS and be able to bring that and get everyone go oh this i see everyone doing it so i should be doing that so it helps create the the the leadership for more teams to follow and what we've seen in with you know really the first year building the team the last year kind of getting the content flowing and getting the processes kind of working to get all the all of the different events and blog posts and out the outbound part grips getting increasing number of contributions and launches so now Corrado was a few weeks ago so it you need us launch but that was that was an example that was it's a lot a lot happened from my team from Aaron Gupta my team his a Java champion he used to be at Sun he was a worked at Red Hat on J bar so he's like he knows everybody in Java has great credibility across the Java community and he said we should launch this product in Belgium at like midnight or so you know West Coast time and let's fly in James Gosling and like to a secret like get him on stage without anyone knowing he's gonna do it and do the introduction so it's like this totally crazy idea and it came off beautifully and we even had the the you know the Oracle Java people saying nice things about it the contributions to open JDK just just a really nice example of figuring it out all that get everybody on board get everything done right and then say here's something that matters to the community that we can contribute it'll show up on the rooftop complete thanks the star power thing but mincing James to do it was a right around a lot of credit for that that particular launch but you know this is the kind of people I have on my team and we're like we're pulling them in and pointing them at okay can you help this team figure out how to take this open-source project to market now I mean that was a major contribution to the open-source community and it was just in time wasn't it but another slight view would might be that you and Oracle should have been working this out until not leaving it until the last minute but I mean we were doing this work anyway right okay we're effectively self-supporting our own version of Java or internally we were getting better performance and better sooner bug fixes on open JDK so it made a decision to just move to the open JDK dream and we were just unhooking our internal use of the of the other the other options we have home mix you know a very large organization along for you acquire lots of different versions and flavors of Java you notice this one language so we like clean it up let's get JDK 8 and 10 we're self supporting it and then we announce to our cave will support our Amazon Linux version right and the final step was like the customers were saying please just like supportive on my laptop and anywhere else I need it and the thing we didn't announce then we didn't make a big thing out and arm support we didn't we kind of it was in there by default we didn't talk about it because the ARM chips came out this week so hey and part of it was also have exactly the same version of Java now on all of the Amazon Linux is even the the Intel AMD and arm so that helps the compatibility for people kind of going well it's a different processor architectures ties together so it was all part of the thinking if you didn't want to tip your hand on the announcement this young is right ok so I think sometimes a AWS is misunderstood partly from its own doing I mean you just mentioned you contribute a lot to open-source but you never talked about it generally when AWS doesn't have something to say they don't say a lot about it so others are left to you know make the narrative you come on you've now got an open-source agenda can you just sort of summarize what that motivation is and what the objectives are well we have you know lots of different pieces of this but you have service teams saying I'm gonna launch this product and there's an open source component to it can you help and sometimes that means I hire someone in my team to specialize in that area sometimes it's just our consulting with the team we may know connecting them to the open-source community so that's one piece of it is having that if you think about CN CF in particular cloud native computing foundation that's got lots of projects if you think about the AWS service teams no one team really owns the scope of CN CF but my team has that ownership for CN CF as a whole we have the board seat position and we say ok we have the serval as people over here we've got some entertaining things over here there's some Linux kernel virtualization bits here we can reach out to lots of different teams across AWS but act as a central point where you have something about open-source you want to talk about with with AWS or Amazon even as a whole you can come to us and we'll find the right people and we'll help you make those connections so part of it is acting as an on-ramp for the sort of buffer between the internal the external concerns of the communities there's somewhere to go and partly just getting contributions out there and what we could gain criticized for not making enough contributions well we've been making more and we're making more and we'll just keep making more contributions until people give credit for it and that's that's the if you're like what's the strategy contribute more and then tell people point at it and hope the people like what we did and take the input no it's the customer driven thing right we're gonna do what our customers ask us to do and their customer community focus on the things we want to do and we've been contributing to spinnaker the the Netflix OSS project we made some serious contributions to that in the this year firecracker myths which talk about that a bit and the Robo maker that those are all areas where we've been working with firecracker is particularly interesting isn't it I mean that's a major contribution of improving the performance and capability of those micro VMs yeah can you talk about that a little bit yeah it's the baby it's interesting because it's a piece of software pretty much no one will ever see your use it's the thing you run on the bare metal but lets you run your container Dee that lets you run your container on top right well it's deep down in the guts of the system there's this piece of code but we we kind of there's a few reasons we're using it particularly in production now with its supporting some of our production use of Fargate and lambda there in the middle it's not a hundred centraal out but there's a good chunk of the capacity running on it and that's where it turns out to be useful and just to cook how long we have to get into this but if you think about a customer running a lambda function we would put create a VM with that lambda function in it if they wanted a second lambda function we put it alongside that one no the customer comes and we start a new VM for them and we start a lambda function in that VMs take a while to start up so you have cancer pre-made some sitting there waiting but these are big VMs and we're putting lots of little functions in them what what firecracker lets you do is start a separate micro VM for every function and safely put all of the customers on one machine so you start packing them in it's a much more efficient way to run your capacity our utilization of those machines supporting lambda is vastly higher than having a machine with a bunch of empty space in it that we're trying to weight running for running for the customer so it's that efficiency is the thing and then the speed of starting a VM it's a very it's a very cut-down VM so it's 125 milliseconds with just to start the VM which is incredibly fast when you think hey give me a VM on ec2 it's you know they're in kinda like 30 seconds to a few minutes like I get 12 terabyte VM takes a little while to boot up but you don't have to pay for it till it finished including my good things about these huge machines right how about Robo maker can you talk a little bit about that and it's important so a rubber makers interesting on the open source blog which we posted on Slate on Sunday night early on Monday morning I did an interview with Brian Goerke who's the founder of the open robotics foundation and what we've done there is it's kind of an extension of sage maker if you think about that being AI if you've got these eight where I can deploy an AI model what is the AI model I want to do it wants to read something from the real world and modified the real word so it's a read from a camera or at some of the sensor and then control motors and servos and that's what Robo maker does it wraps the intelligence you can build with sage maker with the robotic operating system that has actually a library of actuators and a library of algorithms control algorithms you've got little brain in the middle and you've got a new robot that does something and we had the the Robo racer low racing car to which where all of these things come together to make an old toy race car that we can drive around tracks which is a whole other topic we get into but what interviewed Brian on what is the history of Rose the robotic operating system where did it come from you know what is the hard thing about running in it turns out the hard thing with Rose wasn't building the robots it was simulating the robots and the simulators quite a CPU intensive job it's graphics intensive you got this virtual world you're running and VR worlds are quite intensive and getting that installed and running was the hard part so what what what robot maker is is that as the service it's this simulator is called gazebo just a funny name so gazebo as a service is the actual service that effectively were charging for with a free tier so you can play with it and then we charge you for the sort of simulation units like how much computing time you're using when the rest of it is all you know cloud9 for the front end and deployment of fleets of data to fleets the robots and updating them and managing them but they're interesting thing is this is getting into like the people that the field of the first robotic thing is high schools high school robotic competitions they're interested yeah universities are interested in a university solar so we kind of it's not just for commercial production robots it's the whole training thing we're getting into STEM education if kids like playing with robots it's like Center and we're pulling all this in so now you can go home and take these like the latest most advanced AI algorithms that used to have to be doing a PhD at Stanford to be playing with and play with your kid you know over Christmas and see what you can come up with really simplifying the whole software development side of that when you look at the Dean came in competitions we're just awesome yeah all the kids they could have gravitate to the hardware cuz they can touch the software was really hard and and and this is gonna I think take a new level is particularly enough and it's all open source yeah you can go yes oh you've got this robot there no no I pointed them somebody who's complaining that we'd done it and no it was some proprietary robot thingy with the toy cars and I pointed them at the github URL it's that you can go build this thing it's all open source you can put anything else you want on it but the robot cars robot has rolls on it the robotic operating system H maker Robo maker all combined together and they're off running races and having all having fun now you guys are both Formula one fans yeah and you guys have been having some you know profile of Formula One folks here you got the little the mini vehicle riff on that really open source but I have another like thing I'm doing on the site it turns out the over the last year or so we started looking for opportunities to do sports sponsorship with a particular focus on Europe and the rest of the world we had a few US sports where they I don't know something with balls I like I like sports with wheels so about the middle of last year like this June we announced the deal with Formula One which is a multi-part deal part of the deal was just take them to the cloud that they have some data centers stuff they were running at a space and their data center is like no they wanted to do a technology refresh so for all the reasons that everyone else is moving to cloud we moved the sports core infrastructure to cloud over some number of years right so that's a process for starting and part of that is the archive of all Formula One races it's a treasure trove like 67 years of archive of everything they've got all the videos were digitizing it we're gonna figure out what to do what you know we've got to process it to label everything anyway so that's one thing and then we went turned up it we all turned up at Silverstone in the UK at that race it was the week after the announcement and that race we have a do as logos turning up on the screen because another piece was sponsorship so we start sponsoring the core video feed that Formula One uses to the world and that's 500 million fans watch Formula One so now 500 million fans for the next few years they're going to see a dope race logos on screen around the analytical insights of what is going on in the sport the odd rear tires are overheating you went round a corner this fast here's the pit stop strategy so we brand advertising associate with a high-technology sport and analytical insights and that's why we did that deal and they get all of our technology AI a lot of help helping them migrate and then the third thing we did that I got involved with was I'd already done a few CIO summits at Formula One races along the way so I was kind of like trying to poke my way into this thing that was happening I'm not involved in sponsorship set up right so hang on if you've done that thing yet and then them so we decided to do some executive events around Formula one so we'll pick a few races we'll have some you know corporate hospitality like things but when you put a bunch of senior executives together for a few days they share they solve each other's problems and you just get out of the way and they know the people that have solved one problem will share it with the other so it's a really it's like a tiny reinvent right here everyone is sharing if you sit next to someone what problem have you sold you can find stuff out so this is a concentrated version of that and we retired it in Monza earlier this year went great amazing I mean it's fun and it you know next to the business so it finally was like can we get someone on the car on Reba okay who's in Abu Dhabi on Saturday can we get them on Sunday night for the launch for the robot slut no this is like top guy in Formula One got here from Abu Dhabi if by Wednesday morning I'm just happy that they got here yeah that was that was a huge tire cube team we've watched your career you've been somebody who you know shares his knowledge and done some great work so thank you so much for coming back in the cube like that congratulations on all your great work Andy Jesse's coming up next we're excited about that keeper right to everybody we'll be back with our next guest Andy Jesse CEO of AWS right - this short break [Music]

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Google cloud next 2018 brought to you by Google cloud and its ecosystem partners ok welcome back everyone we're live here in San Francisco this is the cubes exclusive coverage of Google clouds event next 18 Google next 18 s the hashtag we got two great guests talking about services kubernetes sto and the future of cloud aparna scene how's the group product manager of kubernetes and we have hen goldberg director of engineering of google cloud - amazing cube alumni x' really awesome guests here to break down why kubernetes why is Google cloud really doubling down on that is do a variety of other great multi cloud and on-premise activities guys welcome to the queue great to see you guys again thank you always a pleasure and again you know we love kubernetes the CN CF and we've talked many times about you know we were riffing and you know Luke who Chuck it was on Francisco who loves sto we thought service meshes are amazing you guys had a great open source presence with cube flow and a variety of other great things the open source contribution is recognized by Diane green and the whole industry as number one congratulations why is this deal so important we're seeing the big news at least for me this kind of nuances one datos available you get general availability we're supposed to be kind of after kubernetes made it but now sto is now happening faster why so what we've seen in the industry is that it only becomes too easy to create micro services or services overall but we still want to move fast so with the industry today how can you make sure that you have the right security policies how do you manage those services at scale and what if tio does really in one sense is to expand it it's decoupled the service development from the service operations so developers are free they don't need to take care of monitoring audit logging network traffic for example but instead the operation team has really sophisticated tool to manage all of that on behalf of the developers in a consistent way you know Penn and I did a session yesterday a spotlight session and it covered cloud services platform including ISTE oh we had a guest from eBay and eBay has been with Google kubernetes engine for a long time and they're also a contributor to the kubernetes open source project they talked about how they have hundreds of micro services and they're written in different languages so they're using gold Python Ruby everything under the Sun and as an operator how do you figure out how the services are communicating with each other how do you know which ones are healthy so they I asked him you know so how did you solve that complexity problem and he said boom you assist EO and I deployed this deal it deploys as just kind of like a sidecar proxy and it's auto injected so none of your developers have to do anything and then it's available in every service and it gives you so much out of the box it gives you traffic management it gives you security it gives you observability it gives you the ability to set quotas and to have SL o--'s and and that's really you know something that operators haven't had before describe SL lows for a second what is why is that important objectives so you can see an example so you can have an availability objective that this service should always always be available you know 99.9 percent of the time that's an SLO or you know the response rate needs to be have a certain type of latency so you can have a latency SLO but the key here with this deal is that as an operator previously Jeff was working Jeff from eBay he was working at the at the VM or container or network port level now he's working at the service level so he understands intelligence about the parts of the application that weren't there before and that has two things it makes him powerful right and more intelligent and secondly the developer doesn't need to worry about those things and I think one of the things for network guys out there is that it's like policy breeze policy to the equation now I want to ask course on the auto injections what's the role of the how much coding is involved in doing this zero coding how much how much developer times involved in injecting the sidecar proxies zero from a developer perspective that's not something that you need to worry about you you can focus on you know the chatbot your writing or the webpage your writing or whatever logic you're developing that's critical for your business that's gonna make you more competitive that's why you were hired as a developer right so you don't have to worry about the auto injection of sto and what we announced was really managed it's d1 gke so that's something that Google will manage for you in the future oh go ahead I want less thing about sto I think it also represented changing the transformation because before we were all about kubernetes and containers but definitely when we see the adoption the complexity is much broader so in DCP were actually introducing new solutions that are appropriate for that so easier for example works on both container eyes applications and VM based applications cloud build that we announced right it also works across applications of all types doesn't have to be only containers we introduced some tools for multi cluster management because we know all customers have multi cluster the large ones so really thinking about it how is in a holistic way we are solving those problems we've seen Google evolve its position in the enterprise clearly when we John and I first started talking to Google about cloud is like everything's going to cloud now we're seeing a lot of recognition of some of the challenges that enterprises face we heard a lot of announcements today that are resonating or going to resonate with the enterprise can you talk about the cloud services platform is that essentially your hybrid strategy is it encompass that maybe you could talk about that little bit closer services platform is a big part of our hybrid cloud strategy I mean for as a Google platform we also have networking and compute and we bridge private and public and that's a foundation but cloud services platform it comes from our heritage with open source it comes from our engagement with many large enterprises banks healthcare institutions retailers do so many of them here you know we had HSBC speaking we had target speaking we know that there are large portions of enterprise IT that are going to remain on premise that have to remain on premise because you know they're in a branch office or they have some sort of regulatory compliance or you know that's just where their developers are and they want to have a local environment so so we're very very sensitive and and knowledgeable about that and that's why we introduced cloud services platform as Google's technology in your environment on Prem so you can modernize where you are at your own pace so some of the things we heard today in the keynote we heard support for Oracle RAC and Exadata and sa P that's obviously traditional enterprises partnership with NetApp cloud armor shielded VMs these are all you know traditional enterprise things what enterprise grade features should we be looking for from cloud services platform so the first one which I actually love the most is the G key policy management one of the things we've heard from our customers they say okay portability is great consistency great but we want security portability right they now have those all of those environment how can they ensure that they're combined with the gtp are in all of their environments how they manage tenants in all of their environments in the same way and G key policy measurement is exactly that okay we're allowing customers to apply the same policy while not locking them in okay we're fully compatible with the kubernetes approach and the primitives of our bug enrolls but it is also aligned with G CPI M so you can actually manage it once and apply it to all your environment including clusters kubernetes cluster everywhere you have so I expect we'll have more and more effort in this area I'm making sure that everything is secured and consistent auto-scaling is that enterprise greed auto-scaling yes yes I mean auto-scaling is a inherent part of kubernetes so kubernetes scales your pods automatically that's a very mature I mean it's been stable for more than a year or probably two years and it's used everywhere so auto skip on auto scaling is something that's used and everywhere the thing about gke is that we also do cluster auto scaling cluster auto scaling is actually harder and we not only do it for CPU as we do it for GPUs which is innovative you know so we can scale an auto scale and auto implements Auto provision your GPUs if you machine learning we're gonna bring that on-prem - it's not in the first version but that's something that with the approach that we've taken to GK on Prem we're gonna be adding those kinds of capabilities that gonna be the go on parameters it's just an extension just got to get the job done or what time frame we look API that we've built it's a downward API that works with some sort of hardware clustering technology right now it's working with vSphere right and so it basically if you're under an underlying technology has that capability we will auto scale the cluster in the future you know I got to say you guys are like the dynamic duo of kubernetes seen you in the shows you had Linux Foundation events talk about the relationship between you guys you have an engineering your product management how were you guys organizer you're moving fast I mean just the progress since we've been interviewing you to CN CF segoe all just been significant since we started talking on the cube you see in kubernetes obviously you guys have some inside knowledge of that but it's really moving fast how is the team organized what's the magic internal formula that you guys are engineering and you guys are working as a team I've seen you guys opens is it just open stores is the internal talk about some of the dynamics we're working as one team one thing I love mostly about the Google culture is about doing the right thing for the user like the announcements you've seen yesterday on the on the keynote there are many many teams and I've been working together you know to get that done but you cannot see that right you don't see that there are so many different teams and different product managers and different engineering managers all working together but well I I think where we are right now I know is that really Google is backing up kubernetes and you can see it everywhere right you can see with ours our announcement about key native yeah for example so the idea of portability the idea of no lock-in is really important for us the idea of open cloud freedom of choice so because we're all aligned to that direction and we all agree about the principles is actually super easy to the she's very modest you know this type of thing doesn't just happen by itself right I mean of course google has a wonderful culture and we have a great team but I you know I really enjoy working with hen and she is an amazing leader she is the leader of the engineering team she also brings together these other teams you know every large company has many teams and the announcement at the scale that we made it and the vision that you see the cohesiveness of it right it comes from collaboration it comes from thinking as a team and you know the management and leadership depend has brought to the kubernetes project and to kubernetes and gke and cloud services platform is phenomenal it's an inspiration I really enjoy the progress congratulate and it's been great progress so I hear a lot of customers talk about things like hey you know they evaluate vendors you know those guys have done the work and it's kind of a categorical way of saying it's complete they're working hard they're doing the right things as you guys continue this mission what's some of the work that you're continuing to what's the work that you guys are doing the work we see some of that evidence if it does ascribe to someone says hey have you done the work to earn the cred in the crowd cloud what would it be how would you describe the work that you've done and the work that you're doing and continue to do what does that work what would you say that I mean I hope that we have done the work to you know to earn the credit I think we're very very conscientious you know in the kubernetes open source project I can say we have 300 plus contributors we are working not just on the future functionality but we work on the testing and the we work on the QA we work on all the documentation stuff we work on all the nitty-gritty details so I think that's where we earn the credit on the open source side I think in cloud and in Enterprise do well you're seeing a lot of it here today you know the announcements that you mentioned we're very very cognizant and I think the thing I like about one of the things that Diane said I liked very much as I think the industry underestimates us well when you talk about well we look at the kubernetes if I can call it a playbook it took the world by storm obviously solving some of your own problems you open source it develop the community should we think about it Co the same it's still the same way are you going to use that sort of similar approach it seems to be working yes doing open source is not easy okay managing and investing and building something like kubernetes requires a lot of effort by the way not just from Google we have a lot of people that working full time just on kubernetes the way we look at that we we look about the thing that we have valued the most like portability for example if there is anything that you would like to make a standard like with K native those are kind of thing that we really want to bring to the industry as open source technologies because we want to make sure that they will work for customers everywhere right we need we need to be genuine and really stand behind what we were saying to our customers so this is the way we look at things again another example you can see about Q flow right so we actually have a lot of examples or we want to make sure that we give those options so that's one it's one is for the customer the second thing I want actually the emphasize is the ecosystem and partners yeah we know that innovation not a lot of innovation will come from Google and we want to make sure that we empower our powders and the ecosystem to build new solutions and is again another way to do it yes I mean because we're talking before we came on camera about the importance of ecosystems Dave and I have covered many industries within you know enterprise and now cloud and big data and I see blockchain on the horizon another part of our coverage area ecosystems are super important when you have openness and you have inclusion inclusion Airy culture around building together and co-creation this is the ethos of open source but people need to make money right so at the end of the day we're you guys are not you're not a non-profit you know it's gonna make profit so instead of the partners so as the world turns to cloud there's going to be new value opportunities how do you guys view that ecosystem because is it yeah is it more educational is it more just keep up a lot of people want to be on the right side of history with cloud and begin a lot of things are changing how do you guys view that ecosystem in terms of nurturing it identifying it working with it building it sharing what's your thoughts sure you know I I believe that new technology comes with lots of opportunity we've seen this with kubernetes and I think going forward we see it it's not a zero-sum game you know there's a huge ecosystem that's grown up around kubernetes and now we see actually around sto a huge ecosystem as well the types of opportunities in the value chain I think that it changes it's not what it used to be right it's not so much I think taking care of hardware racking and stacking hardware it's higher level when we talked about SEO and how that raises the level of management I think there's a huge role for operators it's a transformative role you know and we've seen it at Google we have this thing called site reliability engineering sre it's a big thing like those people are God you know when it comes to your services I think that's gonna happen in the enterprise that's gonna be a real role that's an Operations role and then of course developers their life changes and I think even like for regular people you know for kids for you and I and normal people they can become developers and start writing applications so I think there's a huge shift that's a huge thing you're touching on a lot of areas of IT transformation you know talking about the operations piece we've touched upon some of the application development how do you guys look at IT transformation and what are some of your customers doing IT transformation is enabled by you know this raising of the level of abstraction by having a multi cluster multi cloud environment what I see in in the customer base is that they don't want to be limited to one type of cloud they don't want to be limited to just what's on Prem or just what's in one you know in any one cloud they want to be able to consume best-of-breed they want to be able to take what they have and modernize it even if it's even if they can't completely rewrite or even if they can't completely transform it they want to be able they wanted to be able to participate so they even they want their mainframes to be able to participate but yeah I had one customers say you know I I don't want to have two platforms a slow platform and a fast platform I want just a fast platform know about the future now as we end the segment here I want to get your thoughts we're gonna see CN CF s coming up to Seattle in a couple months and also his ST O's got great traction with I'll see with the support and and general availability but what's the impact of the customers because gke Google Cabernets engine is evolving to be the single in her face it's almost as ease of use because that's a real part of what you guys are trying to do is make it easy the abstraction layer is gonna create new business models obviously we see that with the transformation fee she were just mentioning the end of the day I got to operate something I'm a network guy I'm now gonna might be a operating the entire environment I'm gonna enable my developers to be modern fast or whatever they want to be in the day you got to run things got to manage it so what does gke turn into what's the vision can you share your thoughts on on how this transforms and what's the trajectory look like so our goal is actually to help automate that for our customers so they can focus elsewhere as we said from the operations perspective making things more reliable defining the SLO understanding what kind of service they want to provide their customers and our hope you know you can again you can see in other things that we are building like Auto ml okay actually giving more tools to provide those capabilities to the application I think that's really see more and more so the operators will manage services and they will do it across clusters and across environments this is this is a new skill set you know it's the sre skill set but but even bigger because it's not just in one cloud it's across clouds yeah it's not easy they're gonna do it with centralized policy centralized control security compliance all of that so you see us re which is site reliability engineers at Google term but you see that being a role in enterprises and it's also knowing what services to use when what's going to be the most cost effective the right service for the right job that's really an important point I agree I think yeah I think security I think cost perspective was something definitely that will see enterprises investing more in and understanding and how they can leverage that right for their own benefit the admin the operator is gonna say okay I've got this on Prem I've got these three different regions I have to be that traffic coordinator to figure out who can talk to who where should this traffic go there's who should have how much quota all of that right that's the operator role that's the new roles so it's a it's an opportunity for operations people who might have spent their lives managing lawns to really transform their careers yes there's no better time to be an operator I mean you can I want to be an operator and I can't tell you how my dear sorry impacts our team like the engineering team how much they bring the focus on customer the service we are giving to our customers thinking about our services in different ways I think that actually is super important for any engineering team to have that balance okay final questions just put you on the spot real quick answer great stuff congratulations on the work you guys are doing great to follow the progress but I'm a customer I'll put my customer hat on par in ahead I can get that on Amazon Microsoft's got kubernetes why Google cloud what makes Google cloud different if kubernetes is open why should I use Google Cloud so you're right and the wonderful thing is that Google is actually all in kubernetes and we are the first public cloud that actually providing a managed kubernetes on-prem well the first cloud provider to have a GCP marketplace with a kubernetes application production-ready with our partners so if you're all in kubernetes I would say that it's obvious yeah III see most of the customers wanting to be multi cloud and to have choice and that is something that you know is very aligned with what we're look at this crowd win open source is winning great to have you on a part of hend thanks for coming on dynamic duo and kubernetes is - a lot of new services are happening we're bringing all those services here in the cube it's our content here from Google cloud Google next I'm Jennifer and David Lonnie we'll be right back stay with us for more day two coverage after this short break thank you

live from San Francisco it's the cube covering Red Hat summit 2018 brought to you by Red Hat okay welcome back everyone live here in San Francisco California at Moscone West is the cubes exclusive coverage of Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John for your Cohoes with my co Sam John Troy co-founder of tech reckoning and as an analyst firm and community development advisory a next guests a star meter senior manager community leads at Red Hat welcome to the cube good to see you again so obviously the success of open source is grounded in community we'd love talking about community and there's a lot of new things happening new dynamics that are somewhat similar to us in the past but a new generation is coming into open source it's clear by the growth I mean go to any any event and you know just that the Linux Foundation event Jim's daylan's or is it to slide out exponential growth more code coming in so you know give to trot out all the ethos contribute be part of a project and so that the lines are still there but it's evolving and what's your thoughts on on it as it grows I'm looking at the big ecosystem here growing at Red Hat more contributors more projects more products yeah we definitely have the communities are growing and we have more participation and all the projects across the board and I think one of the things that's interesting is the the projects that we're working on are things that one person can't develop or use all on their own and we're talking like software-defined storage or talking OpenStack big solutions and so companies are paying people to work on them and I think over the last 10 years that's been the really big difference like our shares with Dirk at VM was heading up all their open sources and we just didn't Copenhagen and he was reiterating and reminding me because I found myself falling in the trap and a lot of new companies that come into open source I am gonna I'm gonna get people involved in a product I'm gonna join that project so we can commercialize the project versus commercialize their offering and being part of our project so Dirk when I were talking and he was emphasizing languages everything language defines behavior and that the project is an open contributed project on it the product that's commercialized is different and this is not new to read that but it's worth just reeling some of the language as new people come in your thoughts on this yeah so Red Hat we're really clear on what's upstream what's the open source version that everyone is working on together and then what's the version that we're supporting for our customers they have the same codebase they have the same features but the upstream version we call a project and the downstream version we call a product and sometimes they're even branded differently for example manage IQ is the upstream project in cloud forms Red Hat cloud forms is the downstream product and that's where the action is for Red Hat to to commercialize and or productize alright Lord and get all around it but then they contribute everything backups everything's developed upstream so you and you and the other community managers are you at Red Hat it's a little bit different right open source the open source way and open source ethos so you do have a you know these open source communities as well as user communities are you involved with both I mean how do you how do you meld the two how do you differentiate the two you know in the context of Red Hat if I'm a Red Hat customer yes so they're all the same or overlapping so usually you'll have a core group of contributors who maybe some maybe Red Hat employees some may work at another company that either a user company or a partner company some may be individuals working on it and it's kind of your core base but then you have like people that that are participating watching very carefully may be contributing once in a while that are watching that and then you have users and so they're not separate groups of people they're overlapping groups of people that's great the in terms of community here at the show right once you have community that's that's 365 right you come you come to an event and it's like kind of like homecoming so how has the experience been this year for you at Red Hat summit with the Red Hat community people coming together you know a community activities that sort of thing it's it's a really great place to bring people together so that we have all of our customers we have contributors and everyone is on the floor talking so like we're in community central here the floor and our booth has been full of people all day long even when they announce that it's closing there's still people around and talking and we have everything from customer events where we talk to customers about how we work on an upstream - actually that we've had contributor meetups where everyone gets together and meets all their fellow contributors in person how do you guys handle the growth because you know with with growth you have still new ideas coming in so you want to keep an open inclusive environment is there any new things you guys are doing they make sure all the best ideas are being surfaced up or is it the same program seems to think keep going that that way I think I think the best projects evolve over time so we're always looking at the governance of our projects and does it fit where that project is right now and so when a project first starts out it might have a benevolent dictator and then later when it has more contributors and more companies involved you might have even might evolve to a board or to a technical group so for example Gluster we just graduated to a group of maintainer x' that make decisions as opposed to just a project lead is there like a norm or is there a certain pattern that emerges for the puck the programs up I mean the project's having a certain format that you seen that works best or this is more ad hoc based on who's involved it's a little ad hoc but I think most of them start with a very strong personality who has a vision and so a lot of them start either as benevolent dictators or as you know someone who's the main project lead and then as they grow bigger over time you end up with more of a voting member to board of directors Stiles to like Apache and then now today there's a lot of foundations involved to write some some things are are in the Red Hat orbit more more closely others we you know like we were just at KU con so the all the Linux Foundation different the for instance the kubernetes the CN CF as well as stuff like you know the Cloud Foundry and OpenStack foundation so I mean can you talk a little bit about the role of foundations now in modern community in socially open-source yeah I think it's it's part of this evolution from all the contributors we're working as individuals which they still are two companies being able to to pay for people to work on these projects and so the companies want to not just give people time to these projects they also want to donate money and pull their resources to do joint marketing or to push kubernetes forward and so organizations like the CNCs the Linux Foundation enable those companies to work together more effectively if done a good job of balancing I mean they got a lot of logos I mean a lot of people paying them money so there's a commercial aspect but they've been very transparent about that trying to create a great core community and they've separated the technical steering committee from the membership which is smart most the foundations are really good about leaving the technical steering committee to work as it's worked well in open-source and then having the company has pulled their money for for marketing or for filling in the holes where they're not getting volunteers start go ahead well story I just wanted to extend the governance conversation a little bit to the culture as well the I mean we're we're in an interesting place again 2018 in our bigger culture those of us who've been involved in online culture and online communities we know the ways these things can go wrong and we've seen it you know how do you as an individual and your team develop and foster a inclusive and participatory culture in your in the communities of Red Hat I think he said we've all seen things go wrong but I think we also have a lot of experience now about how to foster the culture that we would like and how to include people and so you're seeing a lot more efforts like most online communities are pretty nice places to hang out these days and you're seeing a lot of effort to make sure there's code of conduct for the projects that there's kind of conduct for the events that people are welcome there's a diversity event tomorrow here and so I think we're seeing a lot more inclusiveness and a real effort to bring people in you guys attract a younger demographic we were talking earlier with Denise and because it's open source you got academic you could go as high school is seeing everything from robotics clubs - you know coding early on so you get the redheads getting the mirth for her Li and so she made the kind we're gonna grow our own talent so you know kind of a tongue-in-cheek but you guys have access to a lot of the younger developers any commentary on you know the orientation shop see their loved mission-driven act the younger folks love mission driven and tech but is there any kind of a new school kind of concepts you seen coming from the young guns that are coming up through the ranks so I recently had a chance to speak to a classroom full of college students and that was you really impressed like they knew what open source was they were familiar with licenses and they all wanted to like make their app or make money but they were really focused on humanitarian causes at the same time and so as you really impressed with that I want to do well in my career but I want to make a difference in the world in a better place on that I was really exciting the safe and now more than ever you with a global footprint we just had UNICEF on earlier here Red Hat labs doing some pretty cool things around you know code for good so I think that's cool the challenge we're seeing is is that okay as enterprises come in the continued balance has always been the case you don't want the big one vendor coming in for on their weight around and we're seeing like even with Java you know which is Oracle Java emails Oracle seeing movement that's kind of opening up so it seems the business model seems to be pretty clear opens winning we certainly think so at Red Hat the best model is to be open what's it like to work here it's a really awesome place to work I love all the people that I work with you know everyone red hat really takes the open-source culture not just to its codebase but also to the culture that it has within the organization and decisions are made openly discussed openly everyone gets input everyone doesn't always get to a vote but everyone gets to to have a say and it's listen to it it's a great place to work technical culture as well I'll see techies very technical - as the as the ecosystem grows right there's obviously a lot more participants in the community and so if a company wants to get involved either say like in the kubernetes community or in the openshift community you know what's the right way for a company to come in and participate in that kind of a community and and maybe what are some wrong ways if a company wants to get involved in the community I think the first thing they do is find them online right are they on IRC talking are they on flack talking join the mailing list go to whatever events are local to you your local meetups go to the big events if you can and just put people on it people that know what you're trying to do with it and can contribute you know either with getting started documentation or with bug reports yeah I think it does have to come down to the people you have to send actual people and it can't be some sort of corporate motion and in some ways community is all about people and making connections it's absolutely about people I start talk about your experience this year right had somehow see the numbers are bigger they're getting great the company's being rate reviews from financial analysts open ship has been very popular some of the obviously this is what kubernetes has been phenomenal o open stacks got a bunch of life into it you seen separation clear visibility now on how things are kind of clicking together on the app side core OS is in it's just interesting right is there it heads kind of going to a home of the level what's the conversations like here inside the hall people who aren't here watching didn't have a chance to come what's what's the main conversations the chatter what's been the focus in the community central booth I think the focus has been on how things work together like how our different products work together and how you can use them together as well as like how do I follow along like how do I participate if I want to know where our do is going where do I go to to be part of it what's the coolest thing you've heard here at the show and you could share story oh the coolest thing I've heard I don't know if I have a moment but it's just been all the conversations and like the fact that there's people flowing through all the time it's like standing room only in the booth because people want to talk there's a lot of action a lot of face-to-face engagement all right I do have a stir so we had um we taught these uh these red hat when she Boston and taught these middle school girls how to make cameras that open the hardware and open-source software has anyone talked to you about this no and so they made these cameras and then we flew a couple of them out here and they taught a group of people here at the events on Monday how to make so these 11 year olds twelve year olds taught them how to make cameras how to open hardware and open-source software and I was out talking to one of them about what was different about teaching it that that was probably my favorite moment it's hard to be teacher when yeah you got em together know the material yeah but that's paying it forward that's the open sore thief ethos yeah that's we're talking about sorry thanks for coming on the cube and sharing good to see you again congratulations on all the success and again the community is buzzing you guys are doing great and exciting so thanks for coming on and sharing appreciate it thanks for having me live cube coverage here in San Francisco for Red Hat summit 2018 I'm John Frusciante for stay with us day 2 coverage continues for three days of coverage after this short break be right back [Music]

live from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundation and the cubes ecosystem partners hey welcome back everyone we are live here in Austin Texas for this the cube exclusive coverage of the cloud native con and cube con kubernetes con north america 2017 I'm John Fourier wrapping up the show of two days of live coverage it was dude Minutemen and Justin Warren analysts with the cube guys you guys are out in the hallways Justin you read all the sessions still we've been doing interviews great shows second year full year was a standalone show it was kind of you know a small show last year but really amazing size seven forty five hundred people or so a lot of logos diamond sponsors platinum sponsors gold sponsors silver sponsors startup sponsors media partners it's a freaking commercial party yet tons of developers tons of action so it's not so much a vendor show a lot of vendor interest in what is the a-list developers in this new way to program new way to build services from lyft donating massive to envoy code Google bringing in massive code a lot of contributions a lot of energy a lot of tech action let's wrap it up do yeah so John first of all you I I we had covered the show last year you had gone done it I seen the buzz around kubernetes so I had a certain expectation and actually it's a the show exceeded my expectation you know Dan conan told us we're gonna have over 4,000 people so that it wasn't the size of it but just the quality of the people and the interactions here you know we've been in other shows you know over the years with the cube where you've had you know those builders and you know smart people but wow you know you walk around here people that have done some of these things many time and as we were talking with a number of them it's you know there's some of this infrastructure and really trying to you know solve some of these things and make infrastructure boring that now we've been beating on for years as well as you know it's really helping the applications and I like it this really kind of bridges you know those environments because infrastructure has always known the reason we have infrastructure is to help the applications and for too long infrastructure has been this boat anchor and you know smart people who've been through you know lots of battles before and it feels a little different it feels like we were making some progress you know just and I were talking ahead of the show I remember when we wrapped up Amazon last week it's like serverless holds a lot of promise well server list does not eclipse all of the cloud native and kubernetes stuff here we're actually seeing some of the intersection I know I want to hear Justin's take on some of it but you know a lot of good things you know just in 20 or 50 sessions here they're all online by the way on their YouTube channel for the CN CF you had a chance to kind of walk with always go to some sessions what did you find most exciting what was the notable point the comment sessions here have been spectacular I agree with you the quality of the attendees from from from customers from people who are building the things from vendors it's it's really really high quality stuff the sessions are really technical it depends on which part of the ecosystem you want to dive into so there's not as much in entry level and high level stuff so people who were involved in this ecosystem know what they're doing so it'll be interesting to see how that changes over the next couple of years I expect that there's going to be a bit more intro level thing although boring is the new exciting so maybe there will be no need to do a lot of the intro stuff because it'll be abstracted away so there's a lot of projects that are about basically about making everything easy that is the goal that's what I'm hearing around the conference today and there's lots of there we saw in the keynote yesterday the idea of meta particle which is basically layering extra layers of abstraction on top of kubernetes we saw it again in the keynote with Chen today where they're trying to put different services on top of kubernetes so essentially kubernetes goes away and just becomes invisible it's like plumbing Clayton Coleman mentioned that from Red Hat making containers boring I agree boring is the new black that means boring is working that's foundational to me I think I'm excited by the fact that we're it's not a lot of land grabbing so to speak on it by the vendors it's very foundational tech and people are focused on don't screw it up let's we got a good thing going on it was goober Nettie's that's kind of the vibe I'm sensing and then the excitement of opportunity yeah there seems to be a lot of that anything jump out at you Justin on in terms of tech hallway conversations notable emerging projects that's your eye as catching up with you just before the show we we were talking about what are you looking forward to and for me two of the big things was service and storage like state management and I agree with you those are the two things that still aren't really solve I just came from the server that's working group just before coming on here and there are still a whole bunch of foundational questions about what service actually is is it function to the service is it more than that does s3 count as as something which is service because you don't actually care about which server you're hitting maybe that's service so there's still a lot of work to be done there about defining what that looks like and creating some standards around things standards is apparently a dirty word which I thought it was a bit strange that this whole idea of what standards a great isn't it it's great it's a standard which are which allows you to build other things on top of that I think we're going to see more and more of that that's what we've seen with kubernetes that's one of the the great benefits of having this standardized thing run by CN CF is everyone else can take that off the table as a as a competitive thing so we're not trying to outdo each other and be more kubernetes than anyone else instead people are building things on top of that so we're seeing storage providers like diamante we're seeing networking providers who are doing things with sto and we've works so that ecosystem is being deliberately created by taking some of that competitive pressure off the table okay that's a great point I want to bring that stool and get your thoughts because we interviewed Ben seek single men from lights light stats and he's super smart guy great conversation where things I asked him about his innovation around communities and he says look it you got a is building communities and having them run things is not as good as being forced to come together around standards you mentioned Ethernet a lot of the OSI model was formulated because if you didn't standardize there was no outcome for anybody yeah so there's that kind of going on with kubernetes where just has come together let's it should be a good word and it was done deliberately I was again talking with Jen that like community is is a kind of a buzzword of the cook of the conference there are specific things that have been done to build a community here it's not just about technology it's about the people and we've got things like the diversity scholarships that we saw on on the first day we're 103 people were were sponsored to come here and be on this conference yeah you know I come into something like that a little bit skeptical when you want to poke at things you know coming off of the Amazon show it's there are many people that are scared of Amazon this show everybody's actually really happy and they're like great it's no longer Hadrian made it made a comment to us he's like it's not the everybody about Amazon Club they're here and everybody's actually happy they're here now you know some of the things they're doing will still kind of play out over time but community it's real John did the amount of smart men and women that we talk to I agree with you blew my mind I mean and who we just had on you know you mentioned you know some of the other guests we've had on just super high quality you know just density you brought up a good point this is something that we hadn't talked about this could bring it up Amazon yes last week we're talking about the Amazon how they're winning everything else everyone's reacting to Amazon and this show is reacting to Amazon in a positive way because the culture here they're from the same tech religion if you want to call it a religion they're cloud native they buy the Amazon value proposition yeah so it's not like this is an anti-feminist on crowd if anything they're all going hey Thank You Amazon keep validating micro services I mean why would you it is very much a yes and it's like cloud great what else can we do let's do more of that let's let's layer things on top of this cloud thing and let's in fact go multiplayer let's put with cloud all the things yeah and the competition strategy is gonna be interesting by the families and what's what's great is that they're enabling stuff so to me we're gonna see where the value will be created obviously the software engineering piece it's going to be a big definition I think so the word software engineering now means something you look at all the tech here it's software engineering then the application developers our application developers they're not engineering plumping right so I mean so you're gonna start to see you know that kind of roll so this new ecosystem might emerge you guys reaction to that I mean John look kubernetes commoditized it's no longer you know there's not the orchestration Wars we talked about this coming in it was one of the things that surprised me is this Kelsey said on his keynote this one actually wasn't any really big surprises this community has a lot of transparency so if you're plugged in if you're talking to the people we understand the roadmap there's a lot of projects and nobody can keep up with all the changes but some of the base pieces we understand where that is the the service mesh piece you know huge participation people go into the sessions everybody's interest learning to it and there's so many pieces where people who contribute customers are getting value and it's still very very early days I I love the line they said it's like hey 4100 people here that's probably everyone running kubernetes right now with around the world so you know John I how BIG's this gonna get you know what do we say and I'd love to get just let's take us he was more in the hallways but just to kind of smell on the vibe here and kind of feeling it and read the tea leaves and if things if they smell brisk if the CNC F doesn't screw it up which I don't think they will cuz Dan's very confident they got a great team I do agree with Justin this is a community that was designed by the people first that have the right principles and and know what they want and then will allow detect the form so I think we might see an easier decision around standards if that all happens things like standards and whatnot to make it grow I think this could be a little mini reinvent going on here so I feel a lot like reinvents do our first time there where you know we got all the best guests because such a small community now it's so popular we got it they're all booked up and we're trying to grab guests I think this could be as big as reinvent in not as now but eventually this could be an industry event because if this all works out you're going to see two major audiences those software engineering plumbers and then on the application side that's going to be the business logic like they've been talking about and then that's going to create value ecosystem a third new constituency if that happens it's a services world and it's a you know twenty thousand person show yeah I can definitely see this growing into a big big show we don't have many industry independent shows anymore most of them are a particular vendors ecosystem this one is yeah that's like kubernetes came from Google but it's the CNC F is an independent body they're being very careful about which projects that they add in I was speaking with a lot of the members and of the of the founding board and they are being very careful to not make the same mistakes that's happened with OpenStack they've learned a lot of the lessons from OpenStack and and other communities as well so they're making some deliberate decisions based on experience and knowledge that they've gained from other places so that this will be sustainable and that it can grow into something really really big and I'll just add to your point there Dan Cohen said on the opening keynote they specifically designed it to be a technical event yes not a business event yes Stu that takes a question cube con with a-c-c ube could be the business of kubernetes get out there confuse your prediction for 2018 we're bringing our best coverage guys thanks for commentary last word thoughts this show sum it up wrap it up cube all the things yeah I mean just impressive John after you know this is our last big event of the year you know just so you know humbled to be able to be you know in this community meet some amazing people and you know share it with our audience you know that this community is something that comes out of this we do community with the K I guess for kubernetes yeah I think high quality okay purposeful high integrity and smart and I think that is formula that will play well love the diversity love all the action guys great great wrap-up Justin's do is the cube here wrapping up coop con cloud native con North America 2017 in Austin Texas thanks for watching of course visit Silk'n angle calm and youtube.com which I still contain go the cube net and we keep on comm and special shout out to Red Hat for all the great support appreciate it and continued success to Red Hat the cubes signing off from Austin Texas thanks for watching

from Austin Texas it's the cube covering cube con and cloud native con 2017 brought to you by Red Hat the Lenox foundations and the cubes ecosystem partners well everyone welcome back to our exclusive coverage from the cube here in Austin Texas we're live on the floor at cloud native con and cube con cubic on like kubernetes gone not the cube con us but cute con we're Michele norelli who's the senior software engineer at Microsoft also the co-chair with Kelsey Heights our great event record-setting attendance I'm John ferry your host with stew minimun Michele welcome to the cube thank you so much for having me so people don't know about if they might have watch the street if you had a stream you're on stage keynoting and managing the whole program here congratulations more attendees here at this event than all the other cube cause of cloud native combined shows the growth and interest in a new way to develop new way to engage with other developers and create value yeah kubernetes has been the heart of it explain cloud native con and cube con what's the difference because I love cloud native but what's this Cooper Denny's thing I love that too yeah was it related a intertwine Wayne take him into his plane there's a there's a really big kubernetes audience and community and they need time to engage and just like work with each other and learn from each other and that's where coop Connie came from soku-kun with the original conference and the first one was a November in Seattle in 2016 and I was actually at that wine was a few hundred people and it was just so small people were actually asking like what is a pod what is kubernetes which are fine questions asked today as well but it was everyone was asking this question nobody was past that point and then you know kubernetes was donated to the CNCs and there were also these other cloud native projects that came about in the space and so we wanted a conference that encompasses both all of the cloud native projects as well as serbs the kubernetes community as well so that's where both of them came from some of the other cloud native projects have their own conferences like Prometheus has prom time and that's been growing as well I think the last one was 200 people up from 70 the last so I gotta ask you because we even cover us we were there at the cube con I was actually having drinks with Luke Tucker at JJ we're like hey we should do this Cuban Eddie's thing and bolted onto the Linux Foundation so you're president creates with the whole team it's been fun to watch Wow yeah but it's the tale of two stories in the community in the industry companies that got funded and we're building open-source and our participants who are building projects out and then a new onboarding of new developers coming into the community a lot of first-timers here you're seeing a visibility into the success of cloud yeah and they're Rieger engaged so you got a lot of folks who have invested into the community and new entrants a migration into the community yeah what does that dynamic mean to the CN CF how is that impacting how you structure in the programming and what are some of the insiders talking about what it is what's the reality yeah I think a lot of it has to do with you know this is a really positive community and there are just like so many people working together and collaborating not just because they I mean it looks like nice to be in a positive community right but you kind of have to like these problems are really hard and it's good to learn from different organizations that have like come across these projects or problems starting in the in the space before and they'll come and collaborate I think some of the things that we've been talking about inside the community is how to actually how to onboard people so the kubernetes community is starting up a new mentorship program to help people that are new to the community start learning how to review code and then PR code and and be productive members in the community and whatever they whatever area they want miss Michelle want to hear about kind of some of the breadth and depth of the community here yeah you know we went there's so many announcements there's a bunch of wando's yeah it's a brand new project I think what it was four projects a year ago and it's now 14 you know right how does somebody's supposed to get their arms around it should they be beat me about that you know where should somebody start you know what do you recommend yeah start with the that's a great question by the way I think that people should start with with a solution to a problem they already have so just know that people have run into these problems before and you should just go into the thing that you know about first and then if that leads you to a different problem and there's a solution that the CNCs you know has already come across then you can go into and dive into the other palms for example I am really interested in kubernetes and have been in that space but I think tracing is really interesting too and I want to start learning how to incorporate that into my workflow as well so show you you're also one of the diversity chairs yeah for the event you talk about kind of a diverse global nature of this community yeah we are spread across all time zone so I actually want to share an experience I have as a sake lead in kubernetes so at first I really wanted to serve all of the time zones and so we have these weekly sick meetings at 9:30 a.m. Pacific and I was like no maybe we should have like alternate meetings like alternate weekly meetings for other time zones but after talking to those the people in the other time sounds like they're very far off actually like China Asia Pacific I realize that they're actually more interested in reading notes and watching videos which is something I didn't actually know you know it's it's you think like oh you have to serve every community in the same way but what I've learned and face to face yeah base to base exactly and that's not actually how that's not how actually everybody wants to interact and so that's been an interesting thing I've learned from the diverse nature and this in the space let's see a challenges I mean we've been talking we're just that reinvent last week at Amazon obviously the number of services that they're rolling out is pretty strong there's a leader in the cloud but as multi cloud becomes the choice for most most enterprises and businesses the service requirements the baseline is got to be established seeing your community rolling out a lot of great new services but storage old storage is transferring to machine learning in AI and you got I Oh tea right around the corner new new kinds of applications yeah okay it's changing the game on the old card storage and security obviously two important areas you got to store the data data is that the card of the value proposition and then security security how are you guys dealing with that those challenges those political grounds that people are have a lot of making a lot of money in an old storage you mean ship a storage drive and here's an architecture those are being disrupted yeah I think they I mean they'll continue to be disrupted I think people are just going to bring in new and new more new and new use cases and then people will come and meet them meet those customers where they are and people just have to change I guess get used to it yeah shifter die yeah I think that some that that we are getting to that point but I can't only time will tell we'll see what are something exciting things that you see from the new developers I just recognize some friends here that I've haven't that dark wondering the community are new and they're kind of like licking their chops like wow what an excitement I could feel value and I could have a distribution I got a community and I can make money and then Dan said you know project products profits you put the product profit motive right on the table but he's clear at the same not pay to play it's okay to have profits if you have a good product for me project I buy that but the new developers like that because as an end scoreboard what are you guys doing with that new community what survived there around those kinds of opportunities you guys creating any programs for them or yeah I think just to just they can get involved you know I think knowledge is power perspective is power also so being involved helps give you a perspective to see where those gaps are and then come up with those services that are profitable or those tools that are profitable and I think this space can be very lucrative based on the number of people he sponsors I think he said he said the show was wondering if you can comment when you're building the schedule how do you balance you know all those platinum sponsors versus you know some of the you know practitioner companies that are also getting involved how do you there are there are different levels of sponsorship right like you mentioned the events team has a sponsorship section or sponsorship team and they handle most of placing sponsors and all of that and so they'll get whatever level they want but actually Kelsey and I do a lot of research and see like what's happening in the community what's interesting what's new and and we'll find time to highlight that as well which one is research what's your role in Microsoft share with the audience what are you working on what's your day-to-day job is it just foundation work are you doing coding what do you coding what's your fav is the VI MX what do you prefer yes my work is 30% community and 70% engineering I really love engineering but I also really love the community and just getting these opportunities to give back you know build skills as well learning how to speak in front of people as well these are both valuable skills to learn and it gives me an opportunity to just give back what I've learned so I appreciate those but I mostly work on developer tools that are open source that help people use containers and kubernetes a little more easily so I work on projects like Helms drafts and Brigade and these are just like things that we've seen the pain points that we've experienced and we want to kind of share our solutions with them so draft is the one I've been working on a lot have you heard of drops okay let me do the two second draft is a tool for application developers to build containerized apps without really understanding or having to understand all of what is kubernetes and containers so that's my favorite space to know you know one of the things we look at coming in here is there's that balance between there's complexity but there's flexibility you know I've heard Kelsey talking about our on when I talk to customer they're like oh I love kubernetes because I take vault and I take envoy and I take all these different things that put together and it does what I want but a lot of people are daunted and they say oh I want to I want to just go to Microsoft Azure and they'll take care of that so how do you look at that and what is the balance that we should be looking for as an industry yeah we've been emphasizing in the community a lot on plug ability across contracts it's like a theme that I think almost every project hurts and a word that you'll hear a lot I'm sure you already have heard a lot and I think that's because you can't meet everyone's needs so you build this modular component that does one thing very well and then you learn how to extend it and or you give people the ability to extend it and so that's really great for scaling a project I I do really appreciate the clouds coming out all of them with their own managed services because it's hard to operate and understand all of these things it's it takes a lot of depth in knowledge context and just prior experience and so I think that'll just make it a lot easier for people to onboard onto these technologies I was going to ask you I was going to ask so you brought up fug ability we saw you know Netflix on stage was his phenomenal of the culture yeah dynamic I think that the Schumer important conversation you know something we've been talking about silage is a real part of what we're seeing tech being a part of but the the things that popped out at me in the keynote were service mesh and pluggable architecture so I want to get your thoughts for the folks that aren't there is that in the trenches and inside the ropes what is a pluggable architecture and what is a service mesh these days because you got lyft and uber and all these great companies who have built hyper scale and large-scale systems in open source and now our big tech success stories donating these kinds of approaches pluggable architectures and service man talk a minute to explain so pluggable architectures this is why you have one layer of your stuff there's a piece of software that does something does one thing very well but you know every I like to say that every company is a snowflake and that's okay and so you may have some workflow or need that is specific to your company and so we shouldn't limit you to just what we think is the right solution to a problem we should allow you to extend or extend these pieces of software with modular components or just extensible components that that work for you does that make a little more sense yeah I work on helm and we also have a pluggable architecture because we were just getting so many requests from the community and it didn't make sense to put everything in the core code based if we did if we accepted one thing it would really just interrupt somebody else's workflow so that that's helped us a lot in in my personal experience I really like plug water it's actually that means you can go build a really kick butt app yeah nail it down to your specifications but decoupler from a core or avoiding kind the old spaghetti code mindset but kind of creating a model where it can be leveraged yeah plugin we all know plugins are but right so so that someone else could take advantage of it exactly yeah a service mesh that's evolved yeah heard a lot of that what is that yeah it's um so developers this is actually the lift story is really interesting to me so at lyft developers were really uneasy about moving from the monolith to the micro-services architecture just because they didn't early understand the network component and we're like network reliability would not be so reliable would fail and time service meshes have allowed engineers at lyft to understand where their failures happen and in terms like of a network standpoint and so you're basically abstracting with network layer and allowing more transparency into it this is like very useful for when you have lots of Micra services and you want this kind of reliability and stability awesome so one point 9s coming Spence support Windows that's what key and now a congratulations just go to the next level I mean growth talk about the growth because it's fun for us to watch you know kind of a small group core young community less than three years old really to kubernetes kind of had some traction but it really is going to be commoditized and that's not a bad thing so how do you what's your take on this what's the vibe what's that what's the current feeling inside the community right now excited pinching ourselves no I think everybody's in awe everybody is in awe and we're just like we want to make this the best experience possible in terms of an open source experience you know we want to welcome people to the community we want to serve the people's needs and we just we just want to do a good job because this is really fun and I think the people working on these problems are having a lot of fun with with seeing this kind of growth and support it's been great certainly for US president creation president and creation of this whole movement it's been fun to watch a document final question what should people expect this week what is the show going to hopefully do what's your prediction what's your purpose here what should people expect this week and the folks that didn't make it what do they miss okay there are so many things happening it's insane you're going to get a little bit of everything there's lots of different tracks lots of diverse content I think I'm when I go to conferences in my personal experience I really love technical salons those are really great because you can get your hands dirty and you can get questions answered by the people who created the project that's an experience that is is really powerful for me I went to the first open tracing salon and that's where I kind of got my hands dirty with tracing and been siegelman who's doing the keynote today this afternoon was the person who was teaching me how to like do this stuff so yeah it was awesome like some marketing fluff no it's not and it's just like it's it's real experienced very expert like experts you know in the in the space teaching you these things so that that definitely can't be replicated I think the cig sessions will be really cool there's a big focus on not just learning stuff but also collaborating and and just talking about things before they get documented so that's a really good experience here it's an action-packed schedule I tweeted that it feels like I'm you know when Burning Man had like a hundred people announced this big thing I think this is the beginning of a amazing industry people are cool they're helpful they're getting you're getting involved answering questions open-book here yeah at cloud native Punk you've got thanks Michele Farrelly been coming on co-chair senior engineer at Microsoft great to have her on the cube great keynote great color great fun exciting times here at cloud native con I'm John furry the founders look at angle media with too many men my co-hosts more live coverage after the short break