(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2, an open collaborative where we explore the future of cloud and data. Now, you might recall last August at the inaugural Supercloud event we validated the technical feasibility and tried to further define the essential technical characteristics, and of course the deployment models of so-called supercloud. That is, sets of services that leverage the underlying primitives of hyperscale clouds, but are creating new value on top of those clouds for organizations at scale. So we're talking about capabilities that fundamentally weren't practical or even possible prior to the ascendancy of the public clouds. And so today at Supercloud 2, we're digging further into the topic with input from real-world practitioners. And we're exploring the intersection of data and cloud, And importantly, the realities and challenges of deploying technology for a new business capability. I'm pleased to have with me in our studios, west of Boston, Veronika Durgin, who's the head of data at Saks. Veronika, welcome. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. So excited to be here. >> And so we have to say upfront, you're here, these are your opinions. You're not representing Saks in any way. So we appreciate you sharing your depth of knowledge with us. >> Thank you, Dave. Yeah, I've been doing data for a while. I try not to say how long anymore. It's been a while. But yeah, thank you for having me. >> Yeah, you're welcome. I mean, one of the highlights of this past year for me was hanging out at the airport with you after the Snowflake Summit. And we were just chatting about sort of data mesh, and you were saying, "Yeah, but." There was a yeah, but. You were saying there's some practical realities of actually implementing these things. So I want to get into some of that. And I guess starting from a perspective of how data has changed, you've seen a lot of the waves. I mean, even if we go back to pre-Hadoop, you know, that would shove everything into an Oracle database, or, you know, Hadoop was going to save our data lives. And the cloud came along and, you know, that was kind of a disruptive force. And, you know, now we see things like, whether it's Snowflake or Databricks or these other platforms on top of the clouds. How have you observed the change in data and the evolution over time? >> Yeah, so I started as a DBA in the data center, kind of like, you know, growing up trying to manage whatever, you know, physical limitations a server could give us. So we had to be very careful of what we put in our database because we were limited. We, you know, purchased that piece of hardware, and we had to use it for the next, I don't know, three to five years. So it was only, you know, we focused on only the most important critical things. We couldn't keep too much data. We had to be super efficient. We couldn't add additional functionality. And then Hadoop came along, which is like, great, we can dump all the data there, but then we couldn't get data out of it. So it was like, okay, great. Doesn't help either. And then the cloud came along, which was incredible. I was probably the most excited person. I'm lying, but I was super excited because I no longer had to worry about what I can actually put in my database. Now I have that, you know, scalability and flexibility with the cloud. So okay, great, that data's there, and I can also easily get it out of it, which is really incredible. >> Well, but so, I'm inferring from what you're saying with Hadoop, it was like, okay, no schema on write. And then you got to try to make sense out of it. But so what changed with the cloud? What was different? >> So I'll tell a funny story. I actually successfully avoided Hadoop. The only time- >> Congratulations. >> (laughs) I know, I'm like super proud of it. I don't know how that happened, but the only time I worked for a company that had Hadoop, all I remember is that they were running jobs that were taking over 24 hours to get data out of it. And they were realizing that, you know, dumping data without any structure into this massive thing that required, you know, really skilled engineers wasn't really helpful. So what changed, and I'm kind of thinking of like, kind of like how Snowflake started, right? They were marketing themselves as a data warehouse. For me, moving from SQL Server to Snowflake was a non-event. It was comfortable, I knew what it was, I knew how to get data out of it. And I think that's the important part, right? Cloud, this like, kind of like, vague, high-level thing, magical, but the reality is cloud is the same as what we had on prem. So it's comfortable there. It's not scary. You don't need super new additional skills to use it. >> But you're saying what's different is the scale. So you can throw resources at it. You don't have to worry about depreciating your hardware over three to five years. Hey, I have an asset that I have to take advantage of. Is that the big difference? >> Absolutely. Actually, from kind of like operational perspective, which it's funny. Like, I don't have to worry about it. I use what I need when I need it. And not to take this completely in the opposite direction, people stop thinking about using things in a very smart way, right? You like, scale and you walk away. And then, you know, the cool thing about cloud is it's scalable, but you also should not use it when you don't need it. >> So what about this idea of multicloud. You know, supercloud sort of tries to go beyond multicloud. it's like multicloud by accident. And now, you know, whether it's M&A or, you know, some Skunkworks is do, hey, I like Google's tools, so I'm going to use Google. And then people like you are called on to, hey, how do we clean up this mess? And you know, you and I, at the airport, we were talking about data mesh. And I love the concept. Like, doesn't matter if it's a data lake or a data warehouse or a data hub or an S3 bucket. It's just a node on the mesh. But then, of course, you've got to govern it. You've got to give people self-serve. But this multicloud is a reality. So from your perspective, from a practitioner's perspective, what are the advantages of multicloud? We talk about the disadvantages all the time. Kind of get that, but what are the advantages? >> So I think the first thing when I think multicloud, I actually think high-availability disaster recovery. And maybe it's just how I grew up in the data center, right? We were always worried that if something happened in one area, we want to make sure that we can bring business up very quickly. So to me that's kind of like where multicloud comes to mind because, you know, you put your data, your applications, let's pick on AWS for a second and, you know, US East in AWS, which is the busiest kind of like area that they have. If it goes down, for my business to continue, I would probably want to move it to, say, Azure, hypothetically speaking, again, or Google, whatever that is. So to me, and probably again based on my background, disaster recovery high availability comes to mind as multicloud first, but now the other part of it is that there are, you know, companies and tools and applications that are being built in, you know, pick your cloud. How do we talk to each other? And more importantly, how do we data share? You know, I work with data. You know, this is what I do. So if, you know, I want to get data from a company that's using, say, Google, how do we share it in a smooth way where it doesn't have to be this crazy, I don't know, SFTP file moving. So that's where I think supercloud comes to me in my mind, is like practical applications. How do we create that mesh, that network that we can easily share data with each other? >> So you kind of answered my next question, is do you see use cases going beyond H? I mean, the HADR was, remember, that was the original cloud use case. That and bursting, you know, for, you know, Thanksgiving or, you know, for Black Friday. So you see an opportunity to go beyond that with practical use cases. >> Absolutely. I think, you know, we're getting to a world where every company is a data company. We all collect a lot of data. We want to use it for whatever that is. It doesn't necessarily mean sell it, but use it to our competitive advantage. So how do we do it in a very smooth, easy way, which opens additional opportunities for companies? >> You mentioned data sharing. And that's obviously, you know, I met you at Snowflake Summit. That's a big thing of Snowflake's. And of course, you've got Databricks trying to do similar things with open technology. What do you see as the trade-offs there? Because Snowflake, you got to come into their party, you're in their world, and you're kind of locked into that world. Now they're trying to open up. You know, and of course, Databricks, they don't know our world is wide open. Well, we know what that means, you know. The governance. And so now you're seeing, you saw Amazon come out with data clean rooms, which was, you know, that was a good idea that Snowflake had several years before. It's good. It's good validation. So how do you think about the trade-offs between kind of openness and freedom versus control? Is the latter just far more important? >> I'll tell you it depends, right? It's kind of like- >> Could be insulting to that. >> Yeah, I know. It depends because I don't know the answer. It depends, I think, because on the use case and application, ultimately every company wants to make money. That's the beauty of our like, capitalistic economy, right? We're driven 'cause we want to make money. But from the use, you know, how do I sell a product to somebody who's in Google if I am in AWS, right? It's like, we're limiting ourselves if we just do one cloud. But again, it's difficult because at the same time, every cloud provider wants for you to be locked in their cloud, which is why probably, you know, whoever has now data sharing because they want you to stay within their ecosystem. But then again, like, companies are limited. You know, there are applications that are starting to be built on top of clouds. How do we ensure that, you know, I can use that application regardless what cloud, you know, my company is using or I just happen to like. >> You know, and it's true they want you to stay in their ecosystem 'cause they'll make more money. But as well, you think about Apple, right? Does Apple do it 'cause they can make more money? Yes, but it's also they have more control, right? Am I correct that technically it's going to be easier to govern that data if it's all the sort of same standard, right? >> Absolutely. 100%. I didn't answer that question. You have to govern and you have to control. And honestly, it's like it's not like a nice-to-have anymore. There are compliances. There are legal compliances around data. Everybody at some point wants to ensure that, you know, and as a person, quite honestly, you know, not to be, you know, I don't like when my data's used when I don't know how. Like, it's a little creepy, right? So we have to come up with standards around that. But then I also go back in the day. EDI, right? Electronic data interchange. That was figured out. There was standards. Companies were sending data to each other. It was pretty standard. So I don't know. Like, we'll get there. >> Yeah, so I was going to ask you, do you see a day where open standards actually emerge to enable that? And then isn't that the great disruptor to sort of kind of the proprietary stack? >> I think so. I think for us to smoothly exchange data across, you know, various systems, various applications, we'll have to agree to have standards. >> From a developer perspective, you know, back to the sort of supercloud concept, one of the the components of the essential characteristics is you've got this PaaS layer that provides consistency across clouds, and it has unique attributes specific to the purpose of that supercloud. So in the instance of Snowflake, it's data sharing. In the case of, you know, VMware, it might be, you know, infrastructure or self-serve infrastructure that's consistent. From a developer perspective, what do you hear from developers in terms of what they want? Are we close to getting that across clouds? >> I think developers always want freedom and ability to engineer. And oftentimes it's not, (laughs) you know, just as an engineer, I always want to build something, and it's not always for the, to use a specific, you know, it's something I want to do versus what is actually applicable. I think we'll land there, but not because we are, you know, out of the kindness of our own hearts. I think as a necessity we will have to agree to standards, and that that'll like, move the needle. Yeah. >> What are the limitations that you see of cloud and this notion of, you know, even cross cloud, right? I mean, this one cloud can't do it all. You know, but what do you see as the limitations of clouds? >> I mean, it's funny, I always think, you know, again, kind of probably my background, I grew up in the data center. We were physically limited by space, right? That there's like, you can only put, you know, so many servers in the rack and, you know, so many racks in the data center, and then you run out space. Earth has a limited space, right? And we have so many data centers, and everybody's collecting a lot of data that we actually want to use. We're not just collecting for the sake of collecting it anymore. We truly can't take advantage of it because servers have enough power, right, to crank through it. We will run enough space. So how do we balance that? How do we balance that data across all the various data centers? And I know I'm like, kind of maybe talking crazy, but until we figure out how to build a data center on the Moon, right, like, we will have to figure out how to take advantage of all the compute capacity that we have across the world. >> And where does latency fit in? I mean, is it as much of a problem as people sort of think it is? Maybe it depends too. It depends on the use case. But do multiple clouds help solve that problem? Because, you know, even AWS, $80 billion company, they're huge, but they're not everywhere. You know, they're doing local zones, they're doing outposts, which is, you know, less functional than their full cloud. So maybe I would choose to go to another cloud. And if I could have that common experience, that's an advantage, isn't it? >> 100%, absolutely. And potentially there's some maybe pricing tiers, right? So we're talking about latency. And again, it depends on your situation. You know, if you have some sort of medical equipment that is very latency sensitive, you want to make sure that data lives there. But versus, you know, I browse on a website. If the website takes a second versus two seconds to load, do I care? Not exactly. Like, I don't notice that. So we can reshuffle that in a smart way. And I keep thinking of ways. If we have ways for data where it kind of like, oh, you are stuck in traffic, go this way. You know, reshuffle you through that data center. You know, maybe your data will live there. So I think it's totally possible. I know, it's a little crazy. >> No, I like it, though. But remember when you first found ways, you're like, "Oh, this is awesome." And then now it's like- >> And it's like crowdsourcing, right? Like, it's smart. Like, okay, maybe, you know, going to pick on US East for Amazon for a little bit, their oldest, but also busiest data center that, you know, periodically goes down. >> But then you lose your competitive advantage 'cause now it's like traffic socialism. >> Yeah, I know. >> Right? It happened the other day where everybody's going this way up. There's all the Wazers taking. >> And also again, compliance, right? Every country is going down the path of where, you know, data needs to reside within that country. So it's not as like, socialist or democratic as we wish for it to be. >> Well, that's a great point. I mean, when you just think about the clouds, the limitation, now you go out to the edge. I mean, everybody talks about the edge in IoT. Do you actually think that there's like a whole new stove pipe that's going to get created. And does that concern you, or do you think it actually is going to be, you know, connective tissue with all these clouds? >> I honestly don't know. I live in a practical world of like, how does it help me right now? How does it, you know, help me in the next five years? And mind you, in five years, things can change a lot. Because if you think back five years ago, things weren't as they are right now. I mean, I really hope that somebody out there challenges things 'cause, you know, the whole cloud promise was crazy. It was insane. Like, who came up with it? Why would I do that, right? And now I can't imagine the world without it. >> Yeah, I mean a lot of it is same wine, new bottle. You know, but a lot of it is different, right? I mean, technology keeps moving us forward, doesn't it? >> Absolutely. >> Veronika, it was great to have you. Thank you so much for your perspectives. If there was one thing that the industry could do for your data life that would make your world better, what would it be? >> I think standards for like data sharing, data marketplace. I would love, love, love nothing else to have some agreed upon standards. >> I had one other question for you, actually. I forgot to ask you this. 'Cause you were saying every company's a data company. Every company's a software company. We're already seeing it, but how prevalent do you think it will be that companies, you've seen some of it in financial services, but companies begin to now take their own data, their own tooling, their own software, which they've developed internally, and point that to the outside world? Kind of do what AWS did. You know, working backwards from the customer and saying, "Hey, we did this for ourselves. We can now do this for the rest of the world." Do you see that as a real trend, or is that Dave's pie in the sky? >> I think it's a real trend. Every company's trying to reinvent themselves and come up with new products. And every company is a data company. Every company collects data, and they're trying to figure out what to do with it. And again, it's not necessarily to sell it. Like, you don't have to sell data to monetize it. You can use it with your partners. You can exchange data. You know, you can create products. Capital One I think created a product for Snowflake pricing. I don't recall, but it just, you know, they built it for themselves, and they decided to kind of like, monetize on it. And I'm absolutely 100% on board with that. I think it's an amazing idea. >> Yeah, Goldman is another example. Nasdaq is basically taking their exchange stack and selling it around the world. And the cloud is available to do that. You don't have to build your own data center. >> Absolutely. Or for good, right? Like, we're talking about, again, we live in a capitalist country, but use data for good. We're collecting data. We're, you know, analyzing it, we're aggregating it. How can we use it for greater good for the planet? >> Veronika, thanks so much for coming to our Marlborough studios. Always a pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> You're really welcome. All right, stay tuned for more great content. From Supercloud 2, this is Dave Vellante. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

hi everybody welcome back to re invent 2022. this is thecube's exclusive coverage we're here at the satellite set it's up on the fifth floor of the Venetian Conference Center and this is part of the global startup program the AWS startup showcase series that we've been running all through last year and and into this year with AWS and featuring some of its its Global Partners Ed wallson series the CEO of chaos search many times Cube Alum and Kevin Miller there's also a cube Alum vice president GM of S3 at AWS guys good to see you again yeah great to see you Dave hi Kevin this is we call this our Super Bowl so this must be like your I don't know uh World Cup it's a pretty big event yeah it's the World Cup for sure yeah so a lot of S3 talk you know I mean that's what got us all started in 2006 so absolutely what's new in S3 yeah it's been a great show we've had a number of really interesting launches over the last few weeks and a few at the show as well so you know we've been really focused on helping customers that are running Mass scale data Lakes including you know whether it's structured or unstructured data we actually announced just a few just an hour ago I think it was a new capability to give customers cross-account access points for sharing data securely with other parts of the organization and that's something that we'd heard from customers is as they are growing and have more data sets and they're looking to to get more out of their data they are increasingly looking to enable multiple teams across their businesses to access those data sets securely and that's what we provide with cross-count access points we also launched yesterday our multi-region access point failover capabilities and so again this is where customers have data sets and they're using multiple regions for certain critical workloads they're now able to to use that to fail to control the failover between different regions in AWS and then one other launch I would just highlight is some improvements we made to storage lens which is our really a very novel and you need capability to help customers really understand what storage they have where who's accessing it when it's being accessed and we added a bunch of new metrics storage lens has been pretty exciting for a lot of customers in fact we looked at the data and saw that customers who have adopted storage lens typically within six months they saved more than six times what they had invested in turning storage lens on and certainly in this environment right now we have a lot of customers who are it's pretty top of mind they're looking for ways to optimize their their costs in the cloud and take some of those savings and be able to reinvest them in new innovation so pretty exciting with the storage lens launch I think what's interesting about S3 is that you know pre-cloud Object Store was this kind of a niche right and then of course you guys announced you know S3 in 2006 as I said and okay great you know cheap and deep storage simple get put now the conversations about how to enable value from from data absolutely analytics and it's just a whole new world and Ed you've talked many times I love the term yeah we built chaos search on the on the shoulders of giants right and so the under underlying that is S3 but the value that you can build on top of that has been key and I don't think we've talked about his shoulders and Giants but we've talked about how we literally you know we have a big Vision right so hard to kind of solve the challenge to analytics at scale we really focus on the you know the you know Big Data coming environment get analytics so we talk about the on the shoulders Giants obviously Isaac Newton's you know metaphor of I learned from everything before and we layer on top so really when you talk about all the things come from S3 like I just smile because like we picked it up naturally we went all in an S3 and this is where I think you're going Dave but everyone is so let's just cut the chase like so any of the data platforms you're using S3 is what you're building but we did it a little bit differently so at first people using a cold storage like you said and then they ETL it up into a different platforms for analytics of different sorts now people are using it closer they're doing caching layers and cashing out and they're that's where but that's where the attributes of a scale or reliability are what we did is we actually make S3 a database so literally we have no persistence outside that three and that kind of comes in so it's working really well with clients because most of the thing is we pick up all these attributes of scale reliability and it shows up in the clients environments and so when you launch all these new scalable things we just see it like our clients constantly comment like one of our biggest customers fintech in uh Europe they go to Black Friday again black Friday's not one days and they lose scale from what is it 58 terabytes a day and they're going up to 187 terabytes a day and we don't Flinch they say how do you do that well we built our platform on S3 as long as you can stream it to S3 so they're saying I can't overrun S3 and it's a natural play so it's it's really nice that but we take out those attributes but same thing that's why we're able to you know help clients get you know really you know Equifax is a good example maybe they're able to consolidate 12 their divisions on one platform we couldn't have done that without the scale and the performance of what you can get S3 but also they saved 90 I'm able to do that but that's really because the only persistence is S3 and what you guys are delivering but and then we really for focus on shoulders Giants we're doing on top of that innovating on top of your platforms and bringing that out so things like you know we have a unique data representation that makes it easy to ingest this data because it's kind of coming at you four v's of big data we allow you to do that make it performant on s3h so now you're doing hot analytics on S3 as if it's just a native database in memory but there's no memory SSC caching and then multi-model once you get it there don't move it leverage it in place so you know elasticsearch access you know Cabana grafana access or SQL access with your tools so we're seeing that constantly but we always talk about on the shoulders of giants but even this week I get comments from our customers like how did you do that and most of it is because we built on top of what you guys provided so it's really working out pretty well and you know we talk a lot about digital transformation of course we had the pleasure sitting down with Adam solipski prior John Furrier flew to Seattle sits down his annual one-on-one with the AWS CEO which is kind of cool yeah it was it's good it's like study for the test you know and uh and so but but one of the interesting things he said was you know we're one of our challenges going forward is is how do we go Beyond digital transformation into business transformation like okay well that's that's interesting I was talking to a customer today AWS customer and obviously others because they're 100 year old company and they're basically their business was they call them like the Uber for for servicing appliances when your Appliance breaks you got to get a person to serve it a service if it's out of warranty you know these guys do that so they got to basically have a you know a network of technicians yeah and they gotta deal with the customers no phone right so they had a completely you know that was a business transformation right they're becoming you know everybody says they're coming a software company but they're building it of course yeah right on the cloud so wonder if you guys could each talk about what's what you're seeing in terms of changing not only in the sort of I.T and the digital transformation but also the business transformation yeah I know I I 100 agree that I think business transformation is probably that one of the top themes I'm hearing from customers of all sizes right now even in this environment I think customers are looking for what can I do to drive top line or you know improve bottom line or just improve my customer experience and really you know sort of have that effect where I'm helping customers get more done and you know it is it is very tricky because to do that successfully the customers that are doing that successfully I think are really getting into the lines of businesses and figuring out you know it's probably a different skill set possibly a different culture different norms and practices and process and so it's it's a lot more than just a like you said a lot more than just the technology involved but when it you know we sort of liquidate it down into the data that's where absolutely we see that as a critical function for lines of businesses to become more comfortable first off knowing what data sets they have what data they they could access but possibly aren't today and then starting to tap into those data sources and then as as that progresses figuring out how to share and collaborate with data sets across a company to you know to correlate across those data sets and and drive more insights and then as all that's being done of course it's important to measure the results and be able to really see is this what what effect is this having and proving that effect and certainly I've seen plenty of customers be able to show you know this is a percentage increase in top or bottom line and uh so that pattern is playing out a lot and actually a lot of how we think about where we're going with S3 is related to how do we make it easier for customers to to do everything that I just described to have to understand what data they have to make it accessible and you know it's great to have such a great ecosystem of partners that are then building on top of that and innovating to help customers connect really directly with the businesses that they're running and driving those insights well and customers are hours today one of the things I loved that Adam said he said where Amazon is strategically very very patient but tactically we're really impatient and the customers out there like how are you going to help me increase Revenue how are you going to help me cut costs you know we were talking about how off off camera how you know software can actually help do that yeah it's deflationary I love the quote right so software's deflationary as costs come up how do you go drive it also free up the team and you nail it it's like okay everyone wants to save money but they're not putting off these projects in fact the digital transformation or the business it's actually moving forward but they're getting a little bit bigger but everyone's looking for creative ways to look at their architecture and it becomes larger larger we talked about a couple of those examples but like even like uh things like observability they want to give this tool set this data to all the developers all their sres same data to all the security team and then to do that they need to find a way an architect should do that scale and save money simultaneously so we see constantly people who are pairing us up with some of these larger firms like uh or like keep your data dog keep your Splunk use us to reduce the cost that one and one is actually cheaper than what you have but then they use it either to save money we're saving 50 to 80 hard dollars but more importantly to free up your team from the toil and then they they turn around and make that budget neutral and then allowed to get the same tools to more people across the org because they're sometimes constrained of getting the access to everyone explain that a little bit more let's say I got a Splunk or data dog I'm sifting through you know logs how exactly do you help so it's pretty simple I'll use dad dog example so let's say using data dog preservability so it's just your developers your sres managing environments all these platforms are really good at being a monitoring alerting type of tool what they're not necessarily great at is keeping the data for longer periods like the log data the bigger data that's where we're strong what you see is like a data dog let's say you're using it for a minister for to keep 30 days of logs which is not enough like let's say you're running environment you're finding that performance issue you kind of want to look to last quarter in last month in or maybe last Black Friday so 30 days is not enough but will charge you two eighty two dollars and eighty cents a gigabyte don't focus on just 280 and then if you just turn the knob and keep seven days but keep two years of data on us which is on S3 it goes down to 22 cents plus our list price of 80 cents goes to a dollar two compared to 280. so here's the thing what they're able to do is just turn a knob get more data we do an integration so you can go right from data dog or grafana directly into our platform so the user doesn't see it but they save money A lot of times they don't just save the money now they use that to go fund and get data dog to a lot more people make sense so it's a creativity they're looking at it and they're looking at tools we see the same thing with a grafana if you look at the whole grafana play which is hey you can't put it in one place but put Prometheus for metrics or traces we fit well with logs but they're using that to bring down their costs because a lot of this data just really bogs down these applications the alerting monitoring are good at small data they're not good at the big data which is what we're really good at and then the one and one is actually less than you paid for the one so it and it works pretty well so things are really unpredictable right now in the economy you know during the pandemic we've sort of lockdown and then the stock market went crazy we're like okay it's going to end it's going to end and then it looked like it was going to end and then it you know but last year it reinvented just just in that sweet spot before Omicron so we we tucked it in which which was awesome right it was a great great event we really really missed one physical reinvent you know which was very rare so that's cool but I've called it the slingshot economy it feels like you know you're driving down the highway and you got to hit the brakes and then all of a sudden you're going okay we're through it Oh no you're gonna hit the brakes again yeah so it's very very hard to predict and I was listening to jassy this morning he was talking about yeah consumers they're still spending but what they're doing is they're they're shopping for more features they might be you know buying a TV that's less expensive you know more value for the money so okay so hopefully the consumer spending will get us out of this but you don't really know you know and I don't yeah you know we don't seem to have the algorithms we've never been through something like this before so what are you guys seeing in terms of customer Behavior given that uncertainty well one thing I would highlight that I think particularly going back to what we were just talking about as far as business and digital transformation I think some customers are still appreciating the fact that where you know yesterday you may have had to to buy some Capital put out some capital and commit to something for a large upfront expenditure is that you know today the value of being able to experiment and scale up and then most importantly scale down and dynamically based on is the experiment working out am I seeing real value from it and doing that on a time scale of a day or a week or a few months that is so important right now because again it gets to I am looking for a ways to innovate and to drive Top Line growth but I I can't commit to a multi-year sort of uh set of costs to to do that so and I think plenty of customers are finding that even a few months of experimentation gives them some really valuable insight as far as is this going to be successful or not and so I think that again just of course with S3 and storage from day one we've been elastic pay for what you use if you're not using the storage you don't get charged for it and I think that particularly right now having the applications and the rest of the ecosystem around the storage and the data be able to scale up and scale down is is just ever more important and when people see that like typically they're looking to do more with it so if they find you usually find these little Department projects but they see a way to actually move faster and save money I think it is a mix of those two they're looking to expand it which can be a nightmare for sales Cycles because they take longer but people are looking well why don't you leverage this and go across division so we do see people trying to leverage it because they're still I don't think digital transformation is slowing down but a lot more to be honest a lot more approvals at this point for everything it is you know Adam and another great quote in his in his keynote he said if you want to save money the Cloud's a place to do it absolutely and I read an article recently and I was looking through and I said this is the first time you know AWS has ever seen a downturn because the cloud was too early back then I'm like you weren't paying attention in 2008 because that was the first major inflection point for cloud adoption where CFO said okay stop the capex we're going to Opex and you saw the cloud take off and then 2010 started this you know amazing cycle that we really haven't seen anything like it where they were doubling down in Investments and they were real hardcore investment it wasn't like 1998 99 was all just going out the door for no clear reason yeah so that Foundation is now in place and I think it makes a lot of sense and it could be here for for a while where people are saying Hey I want to optimize and I'm going to do that on the cloud yeah no I mean I've obviously I certainly agree with Adam's quote I think really that's been in aws's DNA from from day one right is that ability to scale costs with with the actual consumption and paying for what you use and I think that you know certainly moments like now are ones that can really motivate change in an organization in a way that might not have been as palatable when it just it didn't feel like it was as necessary yeah all right we got to go give you a last word uh I think it's been a great event I love all your announcements I think this is wonderful uh it's been a great show I love uh in fact how many people are here at reinvent north of 50 000. yeah I mean I feel like it was it's as big if not bigger than 2019. people have said ah 2019 was a record when you count out all the professors I don't know it feels it feels as big if not bigger so there's great energy yeah it's quite amazing and uh and we're thrilled to be part of it guys thanks for coming on thecube again really appreciate it face to face all right thank you for watching this is Dave vellante for the cube your leader in Enterprise and emerging Tech coverage we'll be right back foreign

>>Hey everyone, welcome back. It's the Cube live in Las Vegas. We've been here since Monday covering the event wall to coverage on the cube at AWS Reinvent 22, Lisa Martin here with Dave Ante. Dave, we're hearing consistently north of 50,000 people here. I'm hearing close to 300,000 online. People are back. They are ready to hear from AWS and its ecosystem. Yeah, >>I think 55 is the number I'm hearing. I've been using 50 for 2019, but somebody the other day told me, no, no, it was way more than that. Right, right. Well this feels bigger in >>2019. It does feel bigger. It does feel bigger. And we've had such great conversations as you know, because you've been watching the Cube since Monday night. We're pleased to welcome from Sumo Logic. Lynn Doherty, the president of Worldwide Field Operations. Lynn, welcome to the program. >>Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here. Talk >>To us about what's going on at Sumo Logic. We cover them. We've been following them for a long time, but what's what's new? >>We have a lot going on at Sumo Logic. What we do is provide solutions for both observability and security. And if you think about the challenges that our customers are facing today, everybody as they're doing this digital transformation is in a situation where the data and the digital exhausts that they have is growing faster than their budgets and especially in what looks like potentially uncertain economic times. And so what we do is enable them to bring that together on a platform so that they can solve both of those problems in a really cost effective way. >>What are some of the things that you're hearing from customers in the field where it relates to Sumo logic and aws? What are they asking for? >>They continue to ask for security and, and I think as everybody goes on that journey of digital transformation and, and I think what's going on now is that there are people who are kind of in wave two of that digital transformation, but security continues to be top of mind. And again, as as our customers are moving into potentially uncertain economic times and they're saying, Hey, I've gotta shore up and, and maybe do smarter things with my budget, cybersecurity is one piece of that that is not falling off the table. That their requirements around security, around audits, around compliance don't go away regardless of what else happens. >>How do you fit in the cloud ecosystem generally? AWS specifically? I think AWS is generally perceived as a more friendly environment for the ecosystem partners. We saw CrowdStrike yesterday, you know, stock got crushed. They had a great quarter, but not as great as they thought it could be. Yeah. And one, some of the analysts were saying, well, it could be Microsoft competition at the low end of the market. Okay. AWS is like the ecosystem partners are really strong in security, lot of places to add value. Where does Sumo Logic >>Fit? Yeah, we are all in with aws. So AWS is our platform of choice. It's the platform that we're built on. It's the only platform that we use. And so we work incredibly closely with aws. In fact, last year we were the first ever AWS ISV partner of the year for as Sumo Logic, which we're not as big as some of the other players, but it just is a testament to the partnership that we have with aws. >>When you're out in the field talking with customers, we talked about some of the challenges there, but where are your customer conversations? You talked about security and cyber as is not falling off the table. In fact, it's, it's rising up the stock, it's a board level conversation. So where are the customer conversations that you're having? Are they, are they at the developer level? Are they higher? Are they at the C-suite? What does that look like? >>Yeah, it's, it's actually at both the developer and the C-suite. And so there's really two motions. The first is around developers and practitioners and people that run security operation centers. And they need tools that are easy to use that integrate in their environment. And so we absolutely work with them as a starting point because if, if they aren't happy with the tools that they have, you know, the customer can't go on that digital transformation, can't have effective application usage. But we also need to talk to C-Suite and that to CIO or a CISO who's really thinking often more broadly about how do we do things as a platform and how do we consolidate some of our tools to rationalize what we're using and really make the most of the budget that we have. And so we come at it from both angles. We call it selling above the line and below the line because both of those are really important people for us to work with. >>Above the line being sort of the business executives, >>Business executives and C-suite executives. And then, but below the line are the actual people who are using the product and using a day to day interacting with the tools. >>So how are those above the line and below the line conversations, you know, different? What, what are the, what are the above the line conversations? What are the sort of keywords that, you know, that resonate? Let's start there. >>Yeah, above the line, there's a lot that's around how do we make the most of the investments that we're making. And so there are no shortage of tools, right? You can look around this AWS floor and see that there are no shortage of tools and software products out there. And so above the line it's how do we make use of the budget that we have and get the most out of the investments we've made and do that in a really smart way. Often thinking about platforms and consolidating tools and, and using the tools and getting full value of what they have below the line. I think it's really how do they have really strong ease of use? How do they get the fastest time to value? Because time to value is really important when you're a practitioner, when you're developing an application, when you're migrating and modernizing an application, having tools that are easy to use and not just give you data but give you insights. And so that's what a conversation with a practitioner for us is, is taking data and turning it into insights that they can use. >>You know, and it seems like we never get rid of stuff in it, but there's a big conversation now when you talk to practitioners, okay, well you got some budget pressures, your sales cycles are elongating. What are you doing about, a lot of 'em are saying, well, we're consolidating and nowhere is that more needed probably than insecurity. So how, how are you seeing that play out in the market? Are you able to take advantage of that as Sumo? >>I think there's the old joke that says there is no ciso. Whoever says, if I just had one more tool, I'd be secure. >>And >>Nobody ever says that it's not one more tool. It's having effective tools and having tools that integrate. And so when I think of Sumo Logic in that space, it's number one, we really integrate with so many different tools out there that give, again, not just security information, but security insights. And so that becomes a really important part of the conversation. What, when you talk about tool consolidation, that's absolutely, I think something that has been a journey that a lot of our customers have been on and probably will be on for the foreseeable future. And so that's a place that we can really help because we have a platform that you can leverage our tool on the DevOps side and on the security side. And that's a conversation that we have a lot with our customers. Are >>You helping bridge those two, the security folks, the dev folks? Cause we talk about Shift left and CISO being involved now. Is Sumo Logic helping from a cultural perspective to bridge those two? >>Yeah, well I think it's a really good point that you make. It's, there's part of it that's a technology challenge and then there's part of it that's a cultural challenge and an organization silo challenge that happens. And so it is something that we try to bring our customers together and often start in one area of the business and help move into other areas and bring them together. It, it also comes down to that data growing faster than budgets and customers can no longer afford to keep multiple copies of the same data, the same metrics, and all of that digital exhaust that comes as they move to the cloud and modernize their applications. And so we bring that together and help them get the most use out of it. >>There are a lot of, we've been talking all week in the cube about sort of adjacencies to security. We've talking about data protections now becoming an adjacency. You know, you talk about resilience within an organization, everybody was sort of caught off guard, obviously with the pandemic, not as resilient as they could have been. So it seems like the scope of security is really expanding. You know, they always say it's, it's a team sport, okay, it's a pro mine, but it's true. Right? Whereas it used to be that guy's problem. Yeah. What are you seeing in terms of that evolution? >>Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think the pandemics force some of that faster than was happening, but it's absolutely something that is going on that cybersecurity is now built in from the ground up and I've been in cyber security for years and it's moved from an afterthought or something that comes after the fact, Hey, let's build the application and then we'll worry about security to, it needs to be a secure application from the ground up. And so that is bringing together that dev and SEC ops a lot because it needs to be built in, the security piece needs to be built in from the ground up on the development side. >>Absolutely. The, the threat landscape has changed so much in the last couple of years. Has the fraudsters, bad actors, whatever you wanna call 'em, are getting far more sophisticated. Yeah. So security can't be an afterthought. Can't be a built on. Yeah, it's gotta be integrated, built in from the ground up for organizations to be able to be, as they've said, resilient. We're hearing a lot about resiliency and the importance of it. For any business. >>For any business, it's important for every business. And if you think about how we interact with companies now, our view of a bank isn't the branch, it's the app, our view of office, it's this, right? It's, it's on the phone, it's on digital devices, it's on a website. And so that is your interaction, that is your experience. And so that plays into, is it up, is it running, is it responsive? That application performance piece, but also the security piece of is it secure? Is my data protected? You know, do I have any vulnerability? >>Yeah, you must have, being in field operations, a favorite customer story that you really think defines the value proposition beautifully of Sumo Logic. What story is that? >>Wow, that's a good question. I have a lot of favorite stories. You know, we have customers, for example, gaming customers that maybe aren't able to predict what their usage looks like. And that's something that we really help our customers with is the peaks and valleys. And so we have gaming customers or retail customers that we're able to take their data sources and they may be at one level and go to 10 x in a day without any notice. And we're able to handle that for them. And I think that's something that I'm really proud of is that we don't make that the customer's problem. They're, they're peaks and valleys, they're spikes that may happen seasonally in retail. It's Black Friday sales that are coming up. It's a new game that gets released. It's a new music piece that gets released and they are going to see that, but they don't have to worry about that because of us. And so that really makes me proud that we handle that and take that problem off of their shoulders. I >>See Pokemon on the website, that's a hugely popular >>Game, Pokemon now. Yes. >>Last question for you, we've got about 30 seconds left. If you had a billboard to put up in Denver where you live about Sumo Logic and its impact like an elevator pitch or a phrase that you think really summarizes the impact, what would it >>Say? Yeah, well it's a really good question. I've got it on my shirt. I dunno, it's not for the G-rated, but we fix things faster. Fix shit faster. And so for us that's really, ultimately, it's not just about having information, it's not just about having the data, it's about being able to resolve your problems quickly. And whether that's an application or a security issue, we've gotta be able to fix it faster for our customers and that's what we enable them to do. >>Fix bleep faster. Lynn, it's been a pleasure having you on the program. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us. Awesome step at Sumo Logic. For our guest and for Dave Ante. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching The Cube Live from Las Vegas, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Good afternoon everybody. I'm John Walls and welcome back to our coverage here on the cube of AWS Reinvent 22. We are bringing you another segment with the Global Startup Program, which is part of the AWS Start Showcase, and it's a pleasure to welcome two new guests here to the showcase. First, immediately to my right Han w lre. Good to see you Han. Good to see you. The leader of the Enterprise Solutions Architecture at aws. And on the far right, Rolin Lee, who is the co-founder and CEO of Heim Doll Data. Roland, good to see you. Great >>To be here. >>All right, good. Thanks for joining us. Well first off, for those at home, I may not be familiar with Heim Doll. What do you do? Why are you here? But I'll let you take it from there. >>Well, we're one of the sponsors here at AWS and great to be here. We offer a data access layer in the form of a proxy, and what it does is it provides complete visibility and the capability to enhance the interaction between the application and one's current database. And as a result, you'll, the customer will improve database scale, database security and availability. And all these features don't require any application changes. So that's sort of our marketing pitch, if you will, all these types of features to improve the experience of managing a database without any application >>Changes. And, and where's the cloud come into play then, for you then, where, where did it come into play for you? >>So we started out actually helping out customers on premise, and a lot of enterprise customers are moving over to the cloud, and it was just a natural progression to do that. And so aws, which is a key part of ours, partners with us to help solve customer problems, especially on the database side, as the application being application performance tends to have issues between the interaction between the application database and we're solving that issue. >>Right. Sohan, I mean, Roan just touched on it about OnPrem, right? There's still some kickers and screamers out there that, that don't, haven't bought in or, or they're about to, but you're about to get 'em. I, I'm sure. But talk about that, that conversion or that transition, if you would, from going OnPrem into a hybrid environment or to into the, the bigger cloud environment and and how difficult that is sometimes. Yes. Maybe to get people to, to make that kind of a leap. >>Well, I would say that a lot of customers are wanting to focus more on product innovation experimentation, and also in terms of having to manage servers and patching, you know, it's to take away from that initiative that they're trying to do. So with aws, we provide undifferentiated heavy lifting so that they can focus on product innovation. And one of the areas talking about Heim is that from the database side, we do provide Amazon rds, which is database and also Aurora, to give them that lift so they don't have to worry about patching servers and setting up provisioning servers as well. >>Right. So Roland, can you get the idea across to people very simply, let us take care of the, the hard stuff and, and that will free you up to do your product innovations, to do your experimentations to, to really free up your team, basically to do the fun stuff and, and let us sweat over the, the, the details basically. Right? >>Exactly. Our, our motto is not only why build when, when you can buy. So a lot of it has to do with offering the, the value in terms of price and the features such as it's gonna benefit a team. Large companies like amazon.com, Google, they have huge teams that can build data access layers and proxies. And what we're trying to do here is commercialize those cuz those are built in house and it's not readily available for customers to use. And you'd need some type of interface between the application and the database. And we provide that sort of why build when you can buy. >>Well, I was gonna say why h right? I mean what's your special sauce? Because everybody's got something, obviously a market differentiator that you're bringing into place here. So you started to touch on a little bit there for me, but, but dive a little deeper there. I mean, what, what is it that, that you're bringing to the table with AWS that you think puts you above the crowd? >>Well, lemme give you a use case here. In typical events like let's say Black Friday where there's a surge traffic that can overwhelm the database, the Heim doll data access layer database proxy provides an auto scaling distributed architecture such that it can absorb those surges and traffic and help scale the database while keeping the data fresh and up to date. And so basically traffic based on season time of day, we can, we can adjust automatically and all these types of features that we offer, most notably automated query caching, ReadWrite split for asset compliance don't require any code changes, which typically requires the application developer to make those changes. So we're saving months, maybe years of development and maintenance. >>Yeah, a lot of gray hairs too, right? Yeah, you're, you're solving a lot of problems there. What about database trends in just in general Hunt, if you will. I mean, this is your space, right? I mean, what we're hearing about from Heindel, you know, in terms of solutions they're providing, but what are you seeing just from the macro level in terms of what people are doing and thinking about the database and how it relates to the cloud? Right. >>And some of the things that we're seeing is that we're seeing an explosion of data, relevant data that customers need to be able to consume and also process as well. So with the explosion of data, there's also, we see customers trying to modernize their application as well through microservices, which does change the design patterns of like the applications we call the access data patterns as well. So again, going back to that, a differentiated heavy lifting, we do have something called purpose built databases, right? It's the right tool for the right purpose. And so it depends on what their like rpo, rto their access to data pattern. Is it a base, is it an acid? So we want to be able to provide them the options to build and also innovate. So with that, that's why we have the Amazon rds, the also the, we also have Redshift, we also have Aurora and et cetera. The Rediff is more of the BI side, but usually when you ingest the data, you have some level of processing to get more insight. So with that, that's why customers are moving more of towards the managed service so that they can give that lift and then focusing on that product and innovation. Yeah. >>Have we kind of caught up or are we catching up to this just the tsunami of data to begin with, right? Because I mean, that was it, you know, what, seven, eight years ago when, when that data became kind of, or becoming king and, and reams and reams and reams and all, you know, can't handle it, right? And, and are we now able to manage that process and manage that flow and get the right data into the right hands at the right time? We're doing better with that. >>I would say that it, it definitely has grown in size of the amount of data that we're ingesting. And so with the scalability and agility of the cloud, we're able to, I would say, adapt to the rapid changes and ingestions of the data. So, so that's why we have things like Aurora servers to have that or auto scale so they can do like MySQL or Postgres and then they can still, like what you know, I'm trying to do is basically don't have to co do like any code changes. It would be a data migration. They still use the same underlying database on also mechanisms, but here we're providing them at scale on the cloud. >>Yeah. Our proxies, they must have for all databases. I mean, is that, is that essential these days? >>Well, good question John. I would say yes. And this is often built in house, as I mentioned, for large companies, they do build some type of data access layer or proxy and, or some utilize some orm, some object relational map to do it. And what again, what we're trying to do is offer this, put this out into the market commercially speaking, such that it can be readily used for, for all the customers to use rather than building it from scratch all the time. >>You know what I didn't ask you was Roy, how does AWS come into play for you then? And, and as in the startup mode, the focus that they've had in startups in general, but in you in particular, I mean, talk about that partnership or that relationship and the value that you're extracting from that. >>The ad AWS partnership has been absolutely wonderful. The collaboration, they have one of the best managed service databases. The value that it that adds in terms of the durability, the manageability, what the Heim doll data does is it compliments Amazon rds, Amazon Redshift very well in the sense that we're not replacing the database. What we're doing is we are allowing the customer to get the most out of the managed service database, whether it be Redshift or Aurora Serverless, rds, all without code changes. And or the analogy that I would give John is a car, a race car may be very fast, but it takes a driver to get to those fast speeds. We're the driver, the Hyundai proxy provides that intelligence so that you can get the most out of that database engine. >>And, and Hfi would then touch on, first off AWS and the emphasis that you have put on startups and are obviously, you know, kind of putting your money where your mouth is, right? With, with the way you've encouraged and nurtured that environment. And they would be about Heim doll in general about where you see this going or what you would like to have, where you want to take this in the next say 12 months, 18 months. >>I think it's more of a better together story of how we can basically coil with our partners, right? And, and basically focusing on helping our customers drive that innovation and be collaboration. So as Heim, as a independent service vendor isv, most customers can leverage that through a marketplace where basically it integrates very nicely with aws. So that gives 'em that lift and it goes back to the undifferentiated heavy lifting on the Hein proxy side, if you will, because then you have this proxy in the middle where then it helps them with their SQL performance. And I've seen use cases where customers were, have some legacy system that they may not have time to modernize the application. So they use this as a lift to keep, keep going as they try to modernize. But also I've seen customers who use are trying to use it as a, a way to give that performance lift because they may have a third party software that they cannot change the code by putting this in there that helps optimize their lines of business or whatever that is, and maybe can be online store or whatever. So I would say it was a better together type of story. >>Yeah. Which is, there's gotta be a song in there somewhere. So peek around the corner and if you wanna be headlights here right now in terms of 12, 18 months, I mean, what, you know, what what next to solve, right? You've already taken, you've slayed a few dragons along the way, but there are others I'm sure is it always happens in innovation in this space. Just when you solve a problem you've just dealt or you have to deal with others that pop up as maybe unintended consequences or at least a new challenge. So what would that be in your world right now? What, what do you see, you know, occupying your sleepless nights here for the next year or so? >>Well, for, for HOMEDALE data, it's all about improving database performance and scale. And those workloads change. We have O ltp, we have OLA with artificial intelligence ml. There's different type of traffic profiles and we're focused on improving those data profiles. It could be unstructured structured. Right now we're focused on structured data, which is relational databases, but there's a lot of opportunity to improve the performance of data. >>Well, you're driving the car, you got a good navigator. I think the GPS is working. So keep up the good work and thank you for sharing the time today. Thank you. Thank you, joy. Do appreciate it. All right, you are watching the cube. We continue our coverage here from AWS Reinvent 22, the Cube, of course, the leader in high tech coverage.

>>Hello, and welcome to the cubes presentation of the AWS startup showcase. This is season two, episode four, the ongoing series covering exciting startups from the AWS ecosystem to talk about cyber security. I'm your host, John feer. And today we're excited to join by a Mediatel Walker, CEO of Quin security and sub IER, vice president of product management of sequence security gentlemen, thanks for joining us today on this showcase. >>Thank you, John PRAs. >>So the title of this session is continuous API protection life cycle to discover, detect, and defend security. APIs are part of it. They're hardened, everyone's using them, but they're they're target for malicious behavior. This is the focus of this segment. You guys are in the leading edge of this. What are the biggest challenges for organizations right now in assessing their security risks? Because you're seeing APIs all over the place in the news, just even this week, Twitter had a whistleblower come out from the security group, talking about their security plans, misleading the FTC on the bots and some of the malicious behavior inside the API interface of Twitter. This is really a mainstream Washington post is reporting on it. New York times, all the global outlets are talking about this story. This is the risk. I mean, yeah, this is what you guys do protect against this. >>Yeah, this is absolutely top of mind for a lot of security folks today. So obviously in the media and the type of attack that that is being discussed with this whistleblower coming out is called reputation bombing. This is not new. This has been going on since I would say at least eight to 10 years where the, the bad actors are using bots or automation and ultimately using APIs on these large social media platforms, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Twitter or some other social media platform and messing with the reputation system of those large platforms. And what I mean by that is they will do fake likes, fake commenting, fake retweeting in the case of Twitter. And what that means is that things that are, should not be very popular, all of a sudden become popular. That that way they're able to influence things like elections, shopping habits, personnel. >>We, we work with similar profile companies and we see this all the time. We, we mostly work on some of the secondary platforms like dating and other sort of social media platforms around music sharing and things like video sharing. And we see this all the time. These, these bots are bad. Actors are using bots, but ultimately it's an API problem. It's not just a bot problem. And that's what we've been trying to sort of preach to the world, which is your bot problem is subset of your API security challenges that you deal as an organization. >>You know, IMIA, we talked about this in the past on a previous conversation, but this really is front and center mainstream for the whole world to see around the challenges. All companies face, every CSO, every CIO, every board member organizations out there looking at this security posture that spans not just information technology, but physical and now social engineering. You have all kinds of new payloads of malicious behavior that are being compromised through, through things like APIs. This is not just about CSO, chief information security officer. This is chief security officer issues. What's your reaction >>Very much so I think the, this is a security problem, but it's also a reputation problem. In some cases, it's a data governance problem. We work with several companies which have very restrictive data governance and data regulations or data residency regulations there to conform to those regulations. And they have to look at that. It's not just a CSO problem anymore. In case of the, the news of the day to day, this is a platform problem. This goes all the way to the, that time CTO of Twitter. And now the CEO of Twitter, who was in charge of dealing with these problems. We see as just to give you an example, we, we work, we work with a similar sort of social media platform that allows Oop based login to their platform that is using tokens. You can sort of sign in with Facebook, sign in with Twitter, sign in with Google. These are API keys that are generated and trusted by these social media platforms. When we saw that Facebook leaked about 50 million of these login credentials or API keys, this was about three, four years ago. I wrote a blog about it. We saw a huge spike in those API keys being used to log to other social media platforms. So although one social platform might be taking care of its, you know, API or what problem, if something else gets reached somewhere else, it has a cascading impact on a variety of platforms. >>You know, that's a really interesting dynamic. And if you think about just the token piece that you mentioned, that's kind of under the coverage, that's a technology challenge, but also you get in the business logic. So let's go back and, and unpack that, okay, they discontinue the tokens. Now they're being reused here. In the case of Twitter, I was talking to an executive here in Silicon valley and they said, yeah, it's a cautionary tale, for sure. Although Twitter's a unique situation, but they abstract out the business value and say, Hey, they had an M and a deal on the table. And so if someone wants to unwind that deal, all I gotta say is, Hey, there's a bot problem. And now you have essentially new kinds of risk in the business have nothing to do with some sign the technology, okay. They got a security breach, but here with Twitter, you have an, an, an M and a deal, an acquisition that's being contested because of the, the APIs. So, so if you're in business, you gotta think to yourself, what am I risking with my API? So every organization should be assessing their security risks, tied to their APIs. This is a huge awakening for them. Where should they start? And that's the, that's the core question. Okay. You got my attention risks with the API. What do I do? >>So when I talked to you in my previous interview, the start is basically knowing what to, in most cases, you see these that are hitting the wire much. Every now there is a major in cases you'll find these APIs are targeted, that are not poorly protected. They're absolutely just not protected at all, which means the security team or any sort of team that is responsible for protecting these APIs are just completely unaware of these APIs being there in the first place. And this is where we talk about the shadow it or shadow API problem. Large enterprises have teams that are geo distributed, and this problem is escalated after the pandemic even more because now you have teams that are completely distributed. They do M and a. So they acquire new companies and have no visibility into their API or security practices. And so there are a lot of driving factors why these APIs are just not protected and, and just unknown even more to the security team. So the first step has to be discover your API attack surface, and then prioritize which APIs you wanna target in terms of runtime protection. >>Yeah. I wanna dig into that API kind of attack surface area management, runtime monitoring capability in a second, but so I wanna get you in here too, because we're talking about APIs, we're talking about attacks. What does an API attack look like? >>Yeah, that's a very good question, John, there are really two different forms of attacks of APIs, one type of attack, exploits, APIs that have known vulnerabilities or some form of vulnerabilities. For instance, APIs that may use a weak form of authentication or are really built with no authentication at all, or have some sort of vulnerability that makes them very good targets for an attacker to target. And the second form of attack is a more subtle one. It's called business logic abuse. It's, it's utilizing APIs in completely legitimate manner manners, but exploiting those APIs to exfiltrate information or key sensitive information that was probably not thought through by the developer or the designers or those APIs. And really when we do API protection, we really need to be able to handle both of those scenarios, protect against abuse of APIs, such as broken authentication, or broken object level authorization APIs with that problem, as well as protecting APIs from business logic abuse. And that's really how we, you know, differentiate against other vendors in this >>Market. So just what are the, those key differentiated ways to identify the, in the malicious intents with APIs? Can you, can you just summarize that real quick, the three ways? >>Sure. Yeah, absolutely. There are three key ways that we differentiate against our competition. One is in the, we have built out a, in the ability to actually detect such traffic. We have built out a very sophisticated threat intelligence network built over the entire lifetime of the company where we have very well curated information about malicious infrastructures, malicious operators around the world, including not just it address ranges, but also which infrastructures do they operate on and stuff like that, which actually helps a lot in, in many environments in especially B2C environments, that alone accounts for a lot of efficacy for us in detecting our weed out bad traffic. The second aspect is in analyzing the request that are coming in the API traffic that is coming in and from the request itself, being able to tell if there is credential abuse going on or credential stuffing going on or known patterns that the traffic is exhibiting, that looks like it is clearly trying to attack the attack, the APM. >>And the third one is, is really more sophisticated as they go farther and farther. It gets more sophisticated where sequence actually has a lot of machine learning models built in which actually profile the traffic that is coming in and separate. So the legitimate or learns the legitimate traffic from the anomalous or suspicious traffic. So as the traffic, as the API requests are coming in, it automatically can tell that this traffic does not look like legitimate traffic does not look like the traffic that this API typically gets and automatically uses that to figure out, okay, where is this traffic coming from? And automatically takes action to prevent that attack? >>You know, it's interesting APIs have been part of the goodness of cloud and cloud scale. And it reminds me of the old Andy Grove quote, founder of, in one of the founders of Intel, you know, let chaos, let, let the chaos happen, then reign it in it's APIs. You know, a lot of people have been creating them and you've got a lot of different stakeholders involved in creating them. And so now securing them and now manage them. So a lot of creation now you're starting to secure them and now you gotta manage 'em. This all is now big focus. As you pointed out, what are some of the dynamics that customers who have to deal with on the product side and, and organization, let, let chaos rain, and then rain in the chaos, as, as the saying goes, what, what do companies do? >>Yeah. Typically companies start off with like, like a mayor talked about earlier. Discovery is really the key thing to start with, like figuring out what your API attack surfaces and really getting your arms around that problem. And typically we are finding customers start that off from the security organization, the CSO organization to really go after that problem. And in some cases, in some customers, we even find like dedicated centers of excellence that are created for API security, which go after that problem to be able to get their arms around the whole API attack surface and the API protection problem statement. So that's where usually that problem starts to get addressed. >>I mean, organizations and your customers have to stop the attacks. A lot of different techniques, you know, run time. You mentioned that earlier, the surface area monitoring, what's the choice. What's the, where are, where are, where is everybody? Is everyone in the, in the boiling water, like the frog and boiling water or they do, they know it's happening? Like what did they do? What's their opportunity to get in >>Position? Yeah. So I, I think let's take a step back a little bit, right? What has happened is if you draw the cloud security market, if you will, right. Which is the journey to the cloud, the security of these applications or APIs at a container level, in terms of vulnerabilities and, and other things that market grew with the journey to the cloud, pretty much locked in lockstep. What has happened in the API side is the API space has kind of lacked behind the growth and explosion in the API space. So what that means is APIs are getting published way faster than the security teams are able to sort of control and secure them. APIs are getting published in environments that the security completely unaware of. We talked about in the past about the parameter, the parameter, as we know, it doesn't exist anymore. It used to be the case that you hit a CDN, you terminate your SSL, you stop your layer three and four DDoS. >>And then you go into the application and do the business logic. That parameter is just gone because it's now could be living in multi-cloud environment. It could be living in the on-prem environment, which is PubNet is friendly. And so security teams that are used to protecting apps, using a perimeter defense plus changes, it's gone. You need to figure out where your perimeter is. And therefore we sort of recommend an approach, which is have a uniform view across all your APIs, wherever they could be distributed and have a single point of control across those with a solution like sequence. And there are others also in this space, which is giving you that uniform view, which is first giving you that, you know, outside and looking view of what APIs to protect. And then let's, you sort of take the journey of securing the API life cycle. >>So I would say that every company now hear me out on this indulges me for a second. Every company in the world will be non perimeter based, except for maybe 5% because of maybe unique reason, proprietary lockdown, information, whatever. But for most, most companies, everyone will be in the cloud or some cloud native, non perimeter based security posture. So the question is, how does your platform fit into that trajectory? And specifically, why are you guys in the position in your mind to help customers solve this API problem? Because again, APIs have been the greatest thing about the cloud, right? Yeah. So the goodness is there because of APS. Now you gotta reign it in reign in the chaos. Yeah. What, what about your platform share? What is it, why is it win? Why should customers care about this? >>Absolutely. So if you think about it, you're right, the parameter doesn't exist. People have APIs deployed in multiple environments, multicloud hybrid, you name it sequence is uniquely positioned in a way that we can work with your environment. No matter what that environment is. We're the only player in this space that can protect your APIs purely as a SA solution or purely as an on-prem deployment. And that could be a SaaS platform. It doesn't need to be RackN, but we also support that and we could be a hybrid deployment. We have some deployments which are on your prem and the rest of this solution is in our SA. If you think about it, customers have secured their APIs with sequence with 15 minutes, you know, going live from zero to life and getting that protection instantaneously. We have customers that are processing a billion API calls per day, across variety of different cloud environments in sort of six different brands. And so that scale, that flexibility of where we can plug into your infrastructure or be completely off of your infrastructure is something unique to sequence that we offer that nobody else is offering >>Today. Okay. So I'll be, I'll be a naysayer. Yeah, look, it, we are perfectly coded APIs. We are the best in the business. We're locked down. Our APIs are as tight as a drum. Why do I need you? >>So that goes back to who's answer. Of course, >>Everyone's say that that's, that's great, but that's my argument. >>There are two types of API attacks. One is a tactic problem, which is exploiting a vulnerability in an API, right? So what you're saying is my APIs are secure. It does not have any vulnerability I've taken care of all vulnerabilities. The second type of attack that targets APIs is the business logic. Use this stuff in the news this week, which is the whistleblower problem, which is, if you think APIs that Twitter is publishing for users are perfectly secure. They are taking care of all the vulnerabilities and patching them when they find new ones. But it's the business logic of, you know, REWE liking or commenting that the bots are targeting, which they have no against. Right. And then none of the other social networks too. Yeah. So there are many examples. Uber wrote a program to impersonate users in different geo locations to find lifts, pricing, and driver information and passenger information, completely legitimate use of APIs for illegitimate, illegitimate purpose using bots. So you don't need bots by the way, don't, don't make this about bot versus not. Yeah. You can use APIs sort of for the, the purpose that they're not designed for sort of exploiting their business logic, either using a human interacting, a human farm, interacting with those APIs or a bot form targeting those APIs, I think. But that's the problem when you have, even when you've secured all your problem, all your APIs, you still have to worry about these of challenges. >>I think that's the big one. I think the business logic one, certainly the Twitter highlights that the Uber example is a good one. That is basically almost the, the backlash of having a simplistic API, which people design to. Right. Yeah. You know, as you point out, Twitter is very simple API, hardened, very strong security, but they're using it to maliciously manipulate what's inside. So in a way that perimeter's dead too. Right. So how do you stop that business logic? What's the, what's the solution what's the customer do about that? Because their goal is to create simple, scalable APIs. >>Yeah. I'll, I'll give you a little bit, and then I think Subaru should maybe go into a little bit of the depth of the problem, but what I think that the answer lies in what Subaru spoke earlier, which is our ML. AI is, is good at profiling plus split between the API users, are these legitimate users, humans versus bots. That's the first split we do. The split second split we do is even when these, these are classified users as bots, we will say there are some good bots that are necessary for the business and bad bots. So we are able to split this across three types of users, legitimate humans, good bots and bad bots. And just to give you an example of good bots is there are in the financial work, there are aggregators that are scraping your data and aggregating for end users to consume, right? Your, your, and other type of financial aggregators FinTech companies like MX. These are good bots and you wanna allow them to, you know, use your APIs, whereas you wanna stop the bad bots from using your APIs super, if you wanna add so, >>So good bots versus bad bots, that's the focus. Go ahead. Weigh in, weigh in on your thought on this >>Really breaks down into three key areas that we talk about here, sequence, right? One is you start by discovering all your APIs. How many APIs do I have in my environment that ly immediately highlight and say, Hey, you have, you know, 10,000 APIs. And that usually is an eye opener to many customers where they go, wow. I thought we had a 10th of that number. That usually is an eyeopener for them to, to at least know where they're at. The second thing is to tell them detection information. So discover, detect, and defend detect will tell them, Hey, your APIs are getting traffic from. So and so it addresses so and so infrastructure. So and so countries and so on that usually is another eye opener for them. They then get to see where their API traffic is coming from. Let's say, if you are a, if you're running a pizza delivery service out of California and your traffic is coming from Eastern Europe to go, wait a minute, nobody's trying, I'm not, I'm not, I don't deliver pizzas in Eastern Europe. Why am I getting traffic from that part of the world? So that sort of traffic immediately comes up and it will tell you that it is hitting your unauthenticated API. It is hitting your API. That has, that is vulnerable to a broken object level, that authorization, vulnerable be and so on. >>Yeah, I think, and >>Then comes the different aspect. Yeah. The different aspect is where you can take action and say, I wanna block certain types of traffic, or I wanna rate limit certain types of traffic. If, if you're seeing spikes there or you could maybe insert header so that it passes on to the end application and the application team can use that bit to essentially take a, a conscious response. And so, so the platform is very flexible in allowing them to take an action that suits their needs. >>Yeah. And I think this is the big trend. This is why I like what you guys are doing. One APIs we're built for the goodness of cloud. They're now the plumbing, you know, anytime you see plumbing involved, connection points, you know, that's pretty important. People are building it out and it has made the cloud what it is. Now, you got a security challenge. You gotta add more intelligence, more smarts to it. This is where I think platform versus tools matter. Can you guys just quickly share your thoughts on that? Cuz a lot of your customers and, and future customers have dealt with the sprawls of all these different tools. Right? I got a tool for this. I got a tool for that, but people are gravitating towards platforms, but how many platforms can a customer have? So again, this brings up the point point around how you guys are engaging with customers. Can you share your thoughts on tooling platforms? Your customers are constantly inundated with the same tsunami. Isn't new thing. Why, what, how should they look at this? >>Yeah, I mean, we don't wanna be, we don't wanna add to that alert fatigue problem that affects much of the cybersecurity industry by generating a whole bunch of alerts and so on. So what we do is we actually integrate very well with S IEM systems or so systems and allow customers to integrate the information that we are detecting or mitigating and feed them onto enterprise systems like a Splunk or a Datadog where they may have sophisticated processes built in to monitor, you know, spikes in anomalous traffic or actions that are taken by sequence. And that can be their dashboard where a whole bunch of alerting and reporting actually happens. So we play in the security ecosystem very well by integrating with other products and integrate very tightly with them, right outta the box. >>Okay. Mia, this is a wrap up now for the showcase. Really appreciate you guys sharing your awesome technology and very relevant product for your customers and where we are right now in this we call Supercloud or now multi-cloud or hybrid world of cloud. Share a, a little bit about the company, how people can get involved in your solution, how they can consume it and things they should know about, about sequence security. >>Yeah, we've been on this journey, an exciting journey it's been for, for about eight years. We have very large fortune 100 global 500 customers that use our platform on a daily basis. We have some amazing logos, both in Europe and, and, and in us customers are, this is basically not the shelf product customers not only use it, but depend on sequence. Several retailers. We are sitting in front of them handling, you know, black Friday, cyber, Monday, Christmas shopping, or any sort of holiday seasonality shopping. And we have handled that the journey starts by, by just simply looking at your API attack surface, just to a discover call with sequence, figure out where your APIs are posted work with you to prioritize how to protect them in a sort of a particular order and take the whole life cycle with sequence. This is, this is an exciting phase exciting sort of stage in the company's life. We just raised a very sort of large CDC round of funding in December from Menlo ventures. And we are excited to see, you know, what's next in, in, in the next, you know, 12 to 18 months. It certainly is the, you know, one of the top two or three items on the CSOs, you know, budget list for next year. So we are extremely busy, but we are looking for, for what the next 12 to 18 months are, are in store for us. >>Well, congratulations to all the success. So will you run the roadmap? You know, APIs are the plumbing. If you will, you know, they connection points, you know, you want to kind of keep 'em simple, as they say, keep the pipes dumb and make the intelligence around it. You seem to see more and more intelligence coming around, not just securing it, but does, where does this go in your mind? Where, where do we go beyond once we secure everything and manage it properly, APRs, aren't going away, they're only gonna get better and smarter. Where's the intelligence coming share a little bit. >>Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, there's not a dull moment in the space. As digital transformation happens to most enterprise systems, many applications are getting transformed. We are seeing an absolute explosion in the volume of APIs and the types of APIs as well. So the applications that were predominantly limited to data centers sort of deployments are now splintered across multiple different cloud environments are completely microservices based APIs, deep inside a Kubernetes cluster, for instance, and so on. So very exciting stuff in terms of proliferation of volume of APIs, as well as types of APIs, there's nature of APIs. And we are building very sophisticated machine learning models that can analyze traffic patterns of such APIs and automatically tell legitimate behavior from anomalous or suspicious behavior and so on. So very exciting sort of breadth of capabilities that we are looking at. >>Okay. I mean, yeah. I'll give you the final words since you're the CEO for the CSOs out there, the chief information security officers and the chief security officers, what do you want to tell them? If you could give them a quick shout out? What would you say to them? >>My shout out is just do an assessment with sequence. I think this is a repeating thing here, but really get to know your APIs first, before you decide what and where to protect them. That's the one simple thing I can mention for thes >>Am. Thank you so much for, for joining me today. Really appreciate it. >>Thank you. >>Thank you. Okay. That is the end of this segment of the eight of his startup showcase. Season two, episode four, I'm John for your host and we're here with sequin security. Thanks for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone. Welcome back to San Francisco, VMware Explorer 2022, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here. We've been having some great conversations today. Lots of news coming out about VMware and its partner ecosystem. We're going to have another conversation about that next. Please welcome two guests to the program, Chance Bingen, technical marketing engineer at NetApp and Jason Massae, staff technical marketing architect, storage and vVols at VMware. Guys, welcome to the program. >> Thanks. >> Glad to be here. >> It's nice to be back in person. >> It is. It's very nice. Oh my gosh. >> And we're hearing there about 7,000 to 10,000 people here, when I was in the Keynote, this morning it was definitely standing room only. >> Yeah, yeah. You've definitely seen the numbers ticked up at the last minute. It was good to see that. It's good, I think a lot of people have really wanted to get back, get that one on one that face to face. There's nothing like being able to, you know, talk to, the experts, talk to the vendors, you know, see your comrades. I mean, that's the thing. I mean, we've seen people that I haven't seen for years, even on my own team, so really good to be back into it. >> It is and it was lots of news coming out this morning during the Keynote. My goodness. But Jason, talk to me, the NetApp and VMware folks had been in tight partnership for a long time. Talk to me about, get both of your perspective from a technical perspective about the depth of the partnership. >> Yeah, so actually NetApp was one of the original design partners for vVols. And with that, now with some of the stuff we're doing with more current stuff with virtual volumes is, NetApp is back and we've got some pretty neat stuff that we've been working on with vVols. And NetApp's got some pretty neat stuff that they've been working on to enable the customers with more features, more functionality with the virtual volume functionality. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Give us a quick primer on what is a vVol? What is a virtual volume? How does it fit into the, into this stack of stuff that we do in IT? >> Yeah. So the easiest way to kind of think of what a vVol is or a virtual volume is you can think of it kind of like an RDM, those row device map, which is kind of a four letter word. We don't really like those, but the idea is that object, that virtual volume is native on the array and presented directly to the VM. But now what we do is we're presenting all of the storage array features up to vSphere and we're managing those storage features via policy based management. But instead of applying storage capabilities at a data store level, we're now applying them at a VM or an application level. So you can have one data store and multiple VMs, and every VM can have a different storage capability managed by a policy that the VI admin gets to manage now. So he doesn't have to go to the storage admin to say, I need a new line, or I need a new volume. He can just go in and create a policy or change a policy. And now that storage capability is applied to the VM or the application. >> Yeah. One thing I'd like to add to that is you can mentioned the word capabilities. >> So we look at the actual data protocols, whether they're file based or block based, you know, I-scuzzy, fiber channel, whatever the case might be. Those protocols have defined sets of capabilities and attributes and things they can expose. What vVols along with the VASA protocol brings to the table is the ability to expose things that are just impossible to expose via the data protocols themselves. So that the, actual nature of the array, what kind of array is it? What's it capable of doing? What is the nature of, you know, encryption? You know, is this going to be a secure, encrypted data store? Is it going to be something else? It just allows you to do so much more with the advanced capabilities that modern storage arrays have than you could ever do if you were just using the data protocols by themselves. >> Right? Yeah. Kind of under that same context. If you think about before with traditional storage, the vSphere or the array really doesn't understand what's going on underlying storage, but with vVols the array and vSphere completely understand at a disc level even, how that VM should be treated. So that helps the storage admin. Storage admin can now go in and see a specific disc of a VM and see the performance on the array. They can go in the array and see, oh, this disc on this VM has got performance issues or needs to be encrypted, or here's the size of that disc. And you couldn't easily see that with your traditional storage. So there's really a lot of benefits and it frees up a lot of time for the storage administrator and enables the VI admin to be able to do a lot of the storage management. >> So there have been, there been a lot of movements over the last decade in the realm of software defined storage. Where essentially all of the things that you are talking about are completely abstracted from the underlying hardware. In this case, you're leveraging the horsepower, if you will and the intelligence of a storage array that has a lot of horsepower and intelligence, and you're accessing those features. You mentioned encryption, whether if you're doing a snapshot or something like that, what's interesting here is it kind of maps to what we're looking at now, which is the trend in the direction of things like DPUs. >> If you go back in history long enough, we had the, you know, the TOE, NIC, TCP offload, you know, the idea of, hey, you know what, what if we had a smart device with its own brain power and we leveraged it. Well, you guys have been doing that from a vVols all perspective with NetApp filers, for lack of better term. For how long now, when did, when were they originally? >> 6.0 it was so it's been what? 11, 12 years. Something like that. >> It's been a while. So yeah, but it's been a decade or so. >> Mm-hmm >> So what's on the frontier. What's the latest there in terms of, in terms of cool stuff that's coming out. >> So actually today, in one of the things that we worked with NetApp that was part of the design partnership was, you know, the NVMe over Fabric protocol has become very popular to extend that functionality of all flash to the, an external array. And now we announce today, in including with that NVMe over Fabrics, you can now do vVols with NVMe over Fabrics. And again, that was something that we worked with NetApp to be a design partner for them. >> That's right. We're very excited about it. We've always been, you know, NVMe been something we've been very proud of for a while. Delivering the first end to end NVMe stack from inside the host, through the fabric, to the array, with the arrays front ports, all the way to the disc on the backend. So we're very excited about that. >> So target market joint NetApp, VMware customers, I presume. >> Really it's, the key here that I like to make sure customers understand is to see that vVols are on the leading edge of VMware's storage design. Some tend to think that maybe vVols wasn't the primary focus, but actually now it is the primary focus. Now I always like to give the caveat that VMFS and NFS are not going away. Those are still very much stuff that we work on. It's just that most of the engineering focus is on virtual volumes or vVols. >> Yeah. Similarly, when you talk about and you're sort of alluding to vSAN when we start talking about VMFS and things like that. >> Yeah. >> Architecturally, we've been talking to folks about the recent announcements with capabilities within AWS. You know, NetApp in AWS for VMware environments. Breaking out of the stranglehold that the, oh, you want more storage, you must buy more CPU and memory, building block process entails. The reality is no matter what you do with vSAN, you're going to have certain constraints that go away when now you have the option to leverage storage from the NetApp filers. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So how does, how do vVols play in the cloud strategy moving forward? >> Well, so one of the things that we do with, vVols currently is mostly On-prem. But when you have the storage architecture, that vVols gives you as far as individual objects, it makes it much easier to migrate up into the cloud because you're not trying to migrate individual VMs that are on another type of system, whatever it might be, those objects are already their own entity. Right, so cloud, Tanzu, those type of things, those vVol objects are already their own entity. So it makes it very easy to migrate them on and off prem. >> So Chance talk to us a little bit about this from NetApp's perspective. You're in customer conversations, who are you talking to? Is this primarily an engineering conversation? Has this gone up the stack in terms of customers are finding themselves in this default multi-cloud environment? >> Yeah, so interestingly, when I talk to customers these days they are almost all either on a journey to a hybrid multi-cloud or they're in some kind of phase of transforming themselves into their own hyperscaler, right? They're be adopting a cloud service provider model and vVols is a perfect fit for that kind of model, because you have the ability to offer different tiers of service, different qualities of service with VM granular controls or VMDK granular controls, even. And even if you look at First Class Disc, right? Which is something that came out largely to support Tanzu, I think which fantastic use case for vVols as well there, but that gives you the ability to offer something like Amazon EBS, right? You can offer Amazon EBS in a native VMware stack using First Class Discs and vVols. And you're able to apply things like quality of service with that granular control that allows you to guarantee that customer the disc that they bought and paid for. They're going to get the IOPS that they're paying for because you're applying those QoS policies directly to that object on the array. And instead of having to worry about is the array going to be able to handle it? Are you going to have one VM that consumes all your IO, you know? You don't have to worry about that with vVols because you've got that integration with the array's native quality controls. >> And Chance what's in this for me as a customer? I'm hearing productivity, I'm hearing cost savings, control efficiency. Talk to me about the benefits in it for the folks that you're talking to. >> Yeah, absolutely. A lot of times it comes down to, you know I mentioned like the cloud service provider model, right? When you're looking to build a robust service catalog and you're able, you want to be able to meet all these like, we mentioned Tanzu, right? Containers as a service, you're able to provide the persistent volumes for your Kubernetes containers that are again, these native objects on the array and you have these fine grain controls, but it's handled at massive scale because it's all handled by storage policies, Kubernetes storage classes, which are natively mapped to VM storage policies through Tanzu. So it just, it gives you the ability to offer all of these services in a, again a rich and robust contents catalog. >> So what are you doing? So you mentioned a couple of things in terms of using array based quality of service. So give me an example of how you're avoiding issues of contention and over subscription in an environment where I'm an administrator and I've got this virtual volume that's servicing this VM or this app on this VM. What kind of visibility do I have down into the actual resources because look at the end of that chain there's a physical resource. And that physical resource represents, what? IOPS and bandwidth and latency and throughput and all of this bundle of things. So how do you avoid colliding with others who are trying to carve vVols out of this world? >> You mean like a noisy neighbor type of thing? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's actually one of the big benefits that you get with vVols is that because those vial objects are native on the array, they're not sharing a loan or a volume. They're not sharing a resource. The only resource they're actually sharing is the array itself. So you don't get that typical noisy neighbor where this one's using all the resources of that volume because really you're looking out at the all encompassing array. And so a storage administrator and the VI admin have a lot more insight. The VI admin can now go to the storage admin if there's say a debugging issue, they want to find a problem. The storage admin now can see those individual objects and say, oh, well this VM, it's not really this, it's not all the discs. It's just disc number two or disc number three or they can actually see at a single disc level on the array, the performance, the latency, you know, the QS, all that stuff. >> Oh, absolutely. >> And that really is what, it frees up at the storage admin's time because the debugging is so much more simple. And it also allows the storage admin a lot more insight. Right? They know those, what's the problem. If you were typically looking at a loaner volume, they don't really know what's going on inside that and neither does the array. But with vVols, the array knows what each disc and how it's supposed to be treated based on the policies that the customer defines. So if one VM is supposed to have a certain QS and another VM isn't. The array knows that that VM, if it goes above it, it's going to be like, nope, you can't have those resources. You weren't granted those resources, but this one was. So you have much more control. And again, it's at an application or a VM level. >> And it's still, it's fairly dynamically configurable. I spoke to a customer just the other day. They are a cloud service provider. And what they do is their customers are able to go in and change their quality of service. So they go into that service portal and they say, okay, I'm paying for gold and I want platinum and they'll go in. They know that they've got a certain time where they need more IO capacity. So they'll go in, they'll pay the fee, increase that capability. And then when they don't need it anymore, they'll downgrade again. >> Okay, so that assumes some ability at the array level to do some sort of resource sharing and balancing to be able to go out and get, say more IO. Because again, fundamentally, if you have a virtual volume, that's drawing its resources from five storage devices, whether those are SSD based or NVMe or spinning disc that represents a finite it amount of resource. The assumption is if you're saying that the array is the pool that you need to worry about, that assumes the array has the ability to go beyond here, based on a policy. >> So that's how it works. It does... >> Well, essentially. I mean, you can't outrun physics. So if the array can't go faster, but the idea is that you understand the performance profile of your array and then you create your service tiers appropriately. >> Okay. >> Yeah. And one of the big benefits is like Chance was saying, if you want to change a profile that used to be a Storage vMotion to a different data store. Now it's just a policy change. The storage admin doesn't have to do anything. The VI admin just changes the policy. And then the array understands, oh, I now need to treat that different. And that's exactly what Chance was talking about in that cloud provider situation, where today I'm using a 100,000 IOPS. I need to use 200,000 tomorrow for special, whatever it is, but I only need to use it for tomorrow. So they don't have to move anything. They just change the policy for that time. And then they change it back. They don't have to do anything on the array itself. They don't have to change anything physically on the VM. It's just a policy change. And that's really where you get that dynamic control of the storage capability. >> So as business dynamics are changing and I'm thinking of like black Friday or Prime day, being able to dial things up and dial it down, they have the ability to do that with a policy. >> Yes. >> Exactly. >> So huge time savings there. >> Oh, it's huge. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it simplifies because now, I don't have to have multiple data stores. You can have one data store, all your VMs in there. You can limit test and dev and you can maximize business critical applications. Again, all via policy. So you've simplified your infrastructure. You've gone to more of a programmatic approach of managing your storage capabilities. But you're now managing at the VM level. >> So we mentioned that the cloud chaos (indistinct) that was mentioned this morning during the Keynote and we're saying a lot of customers are still in this cloud chaos phase. They want to get to Cloud Smart. How is this going to be one of those tools that helps customers pull the levers, dial the knobs, to be able to get to eventually, Cloud Smart. >> I could go on for this for hours. (Lisa Laughs) (Chance chuckles) This is really what simplifies storage. Because typically when you use traditional storage, you're going to have to figure out that this data store has this capability or another example, as you mentioned was Tanzu. If you're managing persistent volumes and you're not using something like vVols, if you want to get a certain storage capability, you have to either tag it or you have to create that data store with that capability. All of that goes away when you use vVols. So now that chaos of multiple data stores, multiple lines or multiple volumes, all that stuff goes away. So now you're simplifying your infrastructure, you have a programmatic approach to managing your storage and you can use it for all of your different types of workloads. So cloud, Kubernetes, persistent volumes, all that type of stuff. And again, all being managed via a simple and again, programmatic approach. So you could automate this. You know today, like you said, black Friday. Okay, Black, Friday's coming up. I want to change the policy. You could automate that. So you don't even have to go in and physically make the change of the policy now. You just say on Fridays, change it to this policy on Sunday night, change it back. >> Yep. >> Again, that's not something you can do with traditional storage. >> Okay. >> And I think from a simplification standpoint as well, you know, I was telling you about that other customer a couple days ago, they were running into the inability to grow beyond the bounds of VMFS file systems for very, very large VMs. And so what I talked to them about was look, if you go to vVols, you're not bound by file systems anymore. You have the capacity of the array and you can have VM discs up to 62 terabytes, you know, as many as you want. And it doesn't matter what they fit in because we can fit them all. So it's, to be able to, and that's some of our largest customers, the reason they go with vVols is to be able to grow beyond the bounds of traditional storage, anything like path limits, you know. That's something you have to contend with. >> Path limits, line limits, all that stuff. Typically just disappears with vVols. >> All those limits go away. Guys- >> They go away. >> Amazing. Congratulations on the work that you guys have done. Thank you so much for joining us on theCUBE talking about the value in it for customers and obviously the technical depths of the NetApp, VMware relationship. Guys, we appreciate your time. >> Yeah, thanks for having us on. >> Our pleasure. For my guests and Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE live from VMware Explorer 2022, Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. So stick around. (upbeat music)

>>Good morning from New York city, Lisa Martin and John furrier with the cube. We are at AWS summit NYC. This is a series of summits this year, about 15 summit globally. And we're excited to be here, John, with about 10,000 folks. >>It's crowded. New York is packed big showing here at 80 of us summit. So it's super exciting, >>Super exciting. Just a little bit before the keynote. And we have our first guest, Kevin Farley joins us the director of strategic alliances at Maria DB. Kevin, welcome to >>The program. Thank you very much. Appreciate you guys having us. >>So all of us out from California to NYC. Yeah, lots of eyes. We got keynote with Warner Vogels coming up. We should be some good news, hopefully. Yep. But talk to us about Maria DB Skys cloud native version released a couple years ago. What's going on? >>Yeah, well, it's, you know, Skys SQL for us is really a be on the future. I think when we think about like the company's real mission is it's just creating a database for everyone. It's it's any cloud, any scale, um, any size of performance and really making sure that we're able to deliver on something that really kind of takes advantage of everything we've done in the market to date. If you think about it, there's not very many startups that have a billion downloads and 75% of the fortune 500 already using our service. So what we're really thinking about is how do we bridge that gap? How do we create a natural path for all of these customers? And if you think about not just Maria DB, but anyone else using the sequel query language, all the, my people, what I think most Andy jazzy TK, anyone says, you know, it's about 10% of the market currently is in the clouds. That's 90% of a total addressable market that hasn't done it yet. So creating cloud modernization for us, I think is just a huge opportunity. Do >>You guys have a great history with AWS? I want to just step back, you mentioned some stats on, on success. Can you scope the size and track record of Maria DB for us real quick and set the table? Because I think there's a bigger picture going on that we've been tracking for the past 13 years we address is the role of the database has always been one of those things where they didn't believe a one database fits all things, right. You guys have been part of that track record scope, the size and scale of Maria DB, the usage, the use cases and some of the successes. >>Yeah. I mean, like I said, some of the stats are already threw out there. So, you know, it is pervasive, I think is the best way to put it. I think what you look at what the database market really became is very siloed. Right? I think there was a lot of unique solutions that were built and delivered that had promise, but they also had compromise. And I think once you look at the landscape of a lot of fortune 500 companies, they have probably 10 to 15 different database solutions, right? And they're all doing unique things. They're difficult to manage. They're very costly. So what Marie DB is always kind of focused on is how do we continue to build more and more functionality into the database itself and allow that to be a single source of truth where application developers can seamlessly integrate applications. >>So then the theme of this event in New York city, which is scale dot, dot, dot, anything must align quite well with Maria and your >>Objectives. I mean, honestly, I think when I think of the problems that most database, um, companies, um, face customers, I should say it, it really comes down to performance and scale. Most of them like Maria DB, like you said, they it's like the car, you know, and love you've been driving it for years. You're an expert at it. It works great, but it doesn't have enough range. It doesn't go fast enough. It's hitting walls. That modern data requirements are just breaking. So scale for me is the favorite thing to talk about because what we launched as MariaDB expand, which is a plugable storage engine that is integrated into Skye, and it really gives you dynamic scale. So you can scale in, you can scale out, it's not costly compute to try to get for seasonality. So you can make your black Friday numbers. It's really about the dexterity to be able to come in and out as you need in a share, nothing architecture with full failover sale healing, high availability, married to the cloud for full cloud scale. And that's really the beauty of the AWS partnership. >>Can you elaborate a bit more on the partnership? How long have you guys been partners? Where is it now anything exciting coming out? >>Yeah, it it's, it's actually been a wonderful ride. They've really invested from the very beginning we went for the satisfactory. So they really brought a lot of resources to bear. And I think if you're looking at why it works, um, it's probably two things. I think the number one thing is that we share one of the core tenants and it's customer obsession in a, in a, in an environment where there is co-opetition right. You have to find paths for how do you get the best thing for the customer? And the second is pretty obvious, but if you look at any major cloud, their number one priority is getting large mission critical workloads into their cloud because the revenue is exponential on the backside. So what do we own? Large mission critical workloads. So if you marry that objective with AWS, the partnership is absolutely perfect for driving true revenue, growth scale, and, and revenue across, across both entities in the partner ecosystem. >>So Kevin talk about the, um, the hybrid strategy, cuz you're seeing cloud operations. Yep. Go hybrid. Amazon announced AWS announced outpost like four years ago. Right now edge is super hot. Yeah. So you're seeing like most of the enterprise is saying mm-hmm <affirmative> okay. Love cloud love the cloud database, but I got the on-prem hybrid cloud operations. Right. So it's not just proprietary operations. It's cloud ops. Yeah. How do you guys fit into that? What's the story. >>We, we actually it's. I mean, there's, there's all these new deliverables outposts, you know, come out with a promise. What we have is a reality right now, um, one of the largest, um, networking companies, which I can't mention yet publicly, um, we want a really big sky SQL deal, but what they had manufacturing plants, they needed to have on-prem deployments. So Maria DB naturally syncs with sky SQL. It's the same technology. It works in perfect harmony. So we really already deliver on the promise of hybrid, but of course there's a lot more we can grow in that area. And certainly thinking about app posts and other solutions, um, is definitely on the, the longer term roadmap of what could make sense for in our customer. What, >>What are some of the latest things that, that you guys are doing now that you weren't doing a few years ago that customers should know about the audience should know about? >>I mean, I think the game changer, we're always innovating. I mean, when you're the company that writes the code owns the code, you know, we can do hot fixes, we can do security patches, we can always do the things that give you real time access to what you need. But I think the game changer is what I mentioned a little bit earlier. And I think it's really the, the holy grail of the cloud. It's like, how can we take the, the SQL query language, which is well over 50% of the open source market. Right. And how do we convert that seamlessly into the cloud? How do we help you modernize on that journey? And expand gives you the ability to say, I can be the small, I can be a small startup. I got my C round. I don't wanna manage databases. I can use the exact same service as the largest fortune 100 company that has massive global scale and needs to be able to drive that across globe. Yeah. So I think that's the beauty is that it's really a democratization of the database, >>At least that, you know, we've been covering the big data space for 10 years. Remember all those different conversations had do those days and oh, they have big data and right. But then it's like too hard to set up. Then you had that kind of period where you saw a spark and data lakes emerge. Yeah. Then you, now it almost seems, seems like now more than ever, there's a data revolutions back. Right. It was almost like a lull in the, in, in the, in the market a little bit. Yeah. I'm gonna democratize data science right now. You got data. So now it just seems to be an explosion at that level. What's your analysis on that? Because you you've been in, in, in the weeds and in the, in the, in this market for 10 years. Yeah. And nothing really changed. It's just now it's more ready. Yeah. I think what's your observation. Why >>Is that? I think that's a really good question. And I love it cuz I mean, what the promise of things like could do and net new technologies sort of, it was always out there, but it required this whole net new lift and how do I do it? How do I manage it? How do I optimize it? The beauty of what we can do with Maria DB is that sky SQLs, which you already know and love. Right? And now we can Del you can deliver a data lake on S3, right? You can pull that data. And we also have the ability to do both analytical data and transactional data from the same database. So you can write applications that can pull column, store data up into, um, your application, but you can also have all of your asset transactions, which are absolutely required for all of your mission critical business. So I think that we're seeing more and more adoption. You've seen other companies start to talk about bringing the different elements in, but we're the only ones that really >>Do it and SQL standardizing that front end. Yeah. Even better than ever before. All the stuff under the covers is all being connected. >>That's the awesome part is right. Is you're literally doing what you already know how to do, but you blow it out on the back end, married to the cloud. And that I think is the real revolution of what makes usability real in the data space. And I think that's what was always the problem before >>When you're in partner conversations, you mentioned co-opetition. Yeah. <laugh> so I think when you're in partner conversations and customer conversations, there is a lot of the, the there's a lot of competition out there. Absolutely. Everyone's got their own key messages. What are the key differentiators that you're saying AWS Marie to be together better? And here's why, >>Yeah. I, I think that certainly you, you start with the global footprint of AWS, right? So what we rely on the most is having the ability to truly deal with global customers in availability zones, they're gonna optimize performance from them. But then when we look at what we do that really changes the game, it comes down to scale and performance. We actually just ran, um, a suspense test against cockroach that also does distributed sequel. Absolutely. You know, the results were off the chart. So we went public and said, we have an open challenge. Anyone that wants to try to beat, um, expand and Skye will we'll if you can, we'll put $25,000 towards charity. So we really are putting our money where our mouth is on that challenge. So we believe the performance cuz we've seen it and we know it's real, but then it's really always about data scale. Modern data requirements are breaking the mold of charting. They're breaking the mold of all these bandaids that people have put in these traditional services. And we give them future. We, we feature proof their investments, so they can say, Hey, I can start here. But if I end up being a startup that becomes Airbnb, I'm already built to blow it out on the back end. I can already use what I have. >>Speaking of startups, being the next Airbnb. If you look at behind us here, you can see, this is a really packed event in New York city events are back, but the ecosystem here is even flourishing. So Dave and I and Lisa were observing that we're still kind of in a growth mode, big time. So yeah, there's some market forces headwinds for the big unicorns, overfunded, you know, public companies, maybe the valuations are a little bit off, but there's still a surge of new innovations, new companies coming out of this. Um, and it's all around data and scale. It's all around new names. We've never heard of. Absolutely. What's your take on >>Reaction? Well, actually another awesome segues cuz in addition to the public clouds, I manage the ecosystem. And one of the things that we've really been focused on with Skys SQL is making it accessible API accessible. So if you're a company that has a huge Marine DB footprint change data capture might be the most important thing for you to say, we wanna do this, but we want you to stay in sync with our environments. Um, things like monitoring, things like BI, all of these are ecosystem plays and current partners that we have, um, that we really think about how do you holistically look at not only the database and what it can do, but how does it deliver value to different segments of your customer base or just your employee base that are using that stuff? So I think that's huge for us. >>Well, you know, one of the things that we talk often about is that every company, these days, regardless of industry, has to be a data company. Yep. You've gotta be able to access the data glean insights from an act on it quickly, whether it's manufacturing, retail, healthcare, are there any verticals in where Maria DB really excels? >>Um, so certainly we Excel in areas like financial services is huge DBS bank. Um, in APAC, one of our biggest customers, also one of the largest Oracle migrations, probably the, that we've ever done. A lot of people trying to get off Oracle, we make it seamless to get into Maria DB. Um, you can think about Samsung cloud and another, their entire consumer cloud is built on Maria DB, why it's integrated with expand right seasonality. So there's customers like that that really bring it home for us as far as ServiceNow tech sector. Right? So these are all different ones, but I think we're really strong in those >>Areas. So this brings up a good point. Dave and I a coined a term called super cloud at reinvent and Lisa and Dave were at multiple events we're together at events. And so a lot of people are getting behind this cuz it's multi-cloud sounds like something's broken. Yes. But so we call it super cloud because customers are building on top of ecosystems like Maria DB and others. Yeah. Not just AWS SOS does all the CapEx absolutely provide the value. So now people are having this new super cloud moment. We' saying we can get all the benefits of cloud scale mm-hmm <affirmative> without actually being a cloud. Right. So this is where the next gen layer comes. What's your reaction to, to super cloud. Do you think it's a thing? >>Well, I think it's a thing in the sense, from our perspective as an ISV, we're, we're laser focused on making sure that we support any cloud and we have a truly multicloud cloud platform. But the beauty of that as well is from a single UI, you're able to deploy databases in different clouds underneath that you're not looking at so you can have performance proximity, but you're still driving it through the same Skys UI. So for us it's, it's unequivocally true. Got it. And I think it's only ISVs like Maria DB that can deliver on that value because >>You're enabling, >>We're enabling it. Right. We partner, we build on top of everything. Right. So we can access everything underneath >>And they can then build on top of you. >>Sure, exactly. And that's exactly where it goes. Right? Yeah. So that, I think in that sense, the super cloud is actually already somewhat real. >>It's interesting. You look at the old, it spend, you take a big company. I won't say a name, but a leader in a, a vertical, they have such a big spend. Now they can leverage that spend in with the super cloud model. They then could become a service provider in the vertical. Absolutely capital one S doing it. Yeah. You're seeing, um, Goldman Sachs doing it. They have the power on the spend that they're leveraging in for their business and servicing their vertical and the smaller players. Do you see that trend? >>Well, I think that's the reality is that everyone is getting this place where if you're talking about sort of this broader super concept, you're talking about global scale, right? That's if in order to deliver a backbone that can service that model, you have to have the right data structure and the right database footprint to be able to scale. And I think that's what they all need to be able to do. And that's what we're really well positioned with Skys >>To enable companies, as we talked about a minute ago to truly become data companies. Yeah. And to be competitive and to scale on their own, where are your customer conversations? Are they at the C-suite level? Has that changed in the last couple of years? >>Uh, that's actually a really great way to state that question because I think you would've traditionally probably talked more to, um, the DBAs, right? They're the people that are having headaches. They're having problems. They're, they're trying to solve. We see a lot of developers now tons, right? They're thinking about, I have this, I have this new thing that I need to do to deliver this new application. And here's the requirements and the current model's broken. It doesn't optimize that it's a lot of work and it's hard to manage. So I think that we're in a great position to be able to take that to that next phase and deliver. And then of course, as you get deeper in with AWS, you're talking about, you know, CIO level, CISO level, they're they need to understand how do you fit into our larger paradigm. And many of these guys have, you know, hundreds of million dollar commits with AWS. So they think of their investment in the sense of the cloud stack. And we're part of that cloud stack, just like AWS services. So those conversations continue to happen certainly with our larger customers, cuz it truly is married. >>It is. And they continue to evolve. Kevin, thank you so much >>For joining. You're welcome. Great, >>John and me talking about what's going on with Maria >>D. Thank you, John. Thank you, Lisa. On behalf of Maria B, it was wonderful. Really >>Appreciate it. Fantastic as well for John furrier. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube live from New York city at AWS summit NYC, John and I we're back with our next guest in a minute.

>>We're back at your storage service. Emil Stan is here. He's the chief commercial officer and chief marketing officer of open line. Thank you, Emil, for coming on the cube. Appreciate your time. >>Thank you, David. Nice. Uh, glad to be here. >>Yeah. So tell us about open line. You're a managed service provider. What's your focus? >>Yeah, we're actually a cloud managed service provider and I do put cloud in front of the managed services because it's not just only the scripts that we manage. We have to manage the clouds as well nowadays. And then unfortunately, everybody only thinks there's one cloud. But's always multiple layers in the cloud. So we have a lot of work in integrating, uh, it where a cloud manages provider in the Netherlands, focusing on, uh, companies who have a head office in the Netherlands, mainly in the, uh, healthcare local government, social housing logistics department. And then in the midsize companies between say 250 to 10,000 office employees. Uh, and that's what we do. We provide them with excellent cloud managed services, uh, as it should be >>Interesting, you know, lot early on in the cloud days, highly regulated industries like healthcare government were somewhat afraid of the cloud. So I'm sure that's one of the ways in which you provide value to your customers is helping them become cloud proficient. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about the value prop to customers. Why do they do business with you? >>Yeah, I think, uh, there are a number of reasons why they do business with us or choose to choose for our managed services provider. Tracy, of course, are looking for stability and continuity, uh, and, and from a cost perspective, predict predictable costs, but nowadays you also have a shortage in personnel and knowledge. So, and it's not always very easy for them to access, uh, those skill sets because most it, people just want to have, uh, a great variety in work, what they are doing, uh, towards, towards the local government, uh, healthcare, social housing. They actually, uh, a sector that, uh, that are really in between embracing the public cloud, but also have a lot of legacy and, and bringing together best of all, worlds is what we do. So we also bring them comfort. We do understand what legacy, uh, needs from a manager's perspective. We also know how to leverage the benefits in the public cloud. Uh, and, uh, I'd say from a marketing perspective, actually, we focus on using an ideal cloud, being a mix of traditional and future based cloud. >>Thank you. I, you know, I'd like to get your perspective on this idea of as a service and the, as a service economy that we often talk about on the cube. I mean, you work with a lot of different companies. We talked about some of the industries and, and increasingly it seems like organizations are focused more on outcomes, continuous value delivery via, you know, suites of services and, and they're leaning into platforms versus one off product offerings, you know, do you see that? How do you see your customers reacting to this as a service trend? >>Yeah. Uh, to be honest, sometimes it makes it more complex because services like, look at your Android or iPhone, you can buy apps, uh, and download apps the way you went to. So they have a lot of apps, but how do you integrate it into one excellent workflow, something that works for you, David or works for me? Uh, so the difficulty, some sometimes lies in, uh, the easy accessibility that you have to those solutions, but nobody takes into account that they're all part of a chain or workflow supply chain, uh, and, and, uh, they're being hyped as well. So what, we also have a lot of time in, in, in, in, in managing our customers, is that the tremendous feature push feature push that there is from technology providers, SaaS providers. Whereas if you provide 10 features, you only need one or two, uh, but the other eight are very distracting from your prime core business. Uh, so there's a natural way in that people are embracing, uh, SA solutions, embracing cloud solutions. Uh, but what's not taken into account as much is that we love to see it the way that you integrate all those solutions to it's something that's workable for the person that's actually using them. And it's seldomly that somebody is only using one solution. There's always a chain of solutions. Um, so yeah, there are a lot of opportunities, but also a lot of challenges for us, but also for our customers. >>Do you see that trend toward, as a service continuing, or do you actually see based on what you're just saying that pendulum, you know, swinging back and forth, somebody comes out with a new sort of feature product and that, you know, changes the dynamic or do you see as a service really having legs? >>Ah, that's very, very good question, David, because that's something that's keeps our busy all the time. We do see a trend in as a service looking at, uh, talk about pure later on. We also use pure as a service more or less. Yeah. And it really helps us. Uh, but you see, uh, um, that sometimes people make a step too, too fast, too quick, not well thought of, and then you see what they call sort of cloud repatriation, tend that people go back to what they're doing and then they stop innovating or stop leveraging. The possibilities are actually there. Uh, so from a consultancy guidance and architecture point of view, we try to help them as much possible to think in a SA thought, but just don't use the, cloud's just another data center. Eh, and so it's all about managing the maturity on our side, but on our customer side as well. >>So I'm interested in how you're sort of your philosophy and it relates, I think, in, in, in terms of how you work with pure, but how do you stay tightly in lockstep with, with your customers so that you don't over rotate so that you don't them to over rotate, but then you're not also, you don't wanna be too late to the game. How, how do you manage all that? >>Oh, there's, there's, there's a world of interactions between us and our customers. And so I think a well known, uh, uh, uh, thing that people, the most customer intimacy, that's very important for us to get to know our customers and get to predict which way they're moving. But the, the thing that we add to it is also the ecosystem intimacy. So no, the application and services landscape, our customers know the primary providers and work with them, uh, to, to, to create something that, that really fits the customers to just not look at from our own silo where a cloud managed service provider that we actually work in the ecosystem with, with, with, with the primary providers. And we have, I think where the average customers, I think we have, uh, uh, uh, in a month we have so much interactions on our operational level and technical levels, strategic level. >>We do bring together our customers also, and to jointly think about what we can do together, what we independently can never reach, but we also involve our customers in defining our own strategy. So we have something we call a customer involvement board. So we present a strategy and today, does it make sense? Eh, this is actually what you need also. So we take a lot of our efforts into our customers and we do also, uh, understand the significant moments of truth. We are now in this, in this broadcast, David there. So you can imagine that at this moment, not thinking go wrong. Uh, if, if, if the internet stops, we have a problem. And now, so we, we actually know that this broadcast is going on for our customers. And we manage that. It's always on, uh, uh, where in the other moments in the week, we might have a little less attention, but this moment we should be there in these moments of truth that we really embraced. We got them well described. Everybody working out line knows what the moment of truth is for our customers. Uh, uh, so we have a big logistics provider. For instance, you does not have to ask us to, uh, have, uh, a higher availability on black Friday or cyber Monday. We know that's the most important part in the year for him or her. Does it answer your question, David? >>Yes. We know as well. You know, when these big, the big game moments you have to be on your top, uh, top of your game. Yeah. Uh, you know, the other thing, a Emil about this as a service approach that I really like is, is it's a lot of it is consumption based and the data doesn't lie, you can see adoption, you know, D daily, weekly, monthly. And so I wonder how you're leveraging pure as a service specifically in what kind of patterns you're seeing in, in, in the adoption, >>Uh, pure as a service for our customers. It's mainly never visible. Uh, we provide storage services, provide storage solutions, storage job is part of a bigger thing of a server of application. Uh, so the real benefits to be honest of, of course, towards our customer, it's all flash, uh, uh, and they have the fast, fastest storage is available. But for ourself, we, uh, we use less resources to manage our storage. We have far more that we have a near to maintenance free storage solution now because we have it as a service and we work closely together with pure. Uh, so, uh, actually the way we treat our customers is the way pure treats us as well. And that's why there's a used click. So the real benefits, uh, uh, how we leverage is it normally we had a bunch of guys managing us storage. Now we only have one and knowing that's a shortage of it, personnel, the other persons can well be, uh, involved in other parts of our services or in other parts of an innovation. So, uh, that's simply great. >>You know, um, my takeaway Emil is that you've made infrastructure, at least, least the storage infrastructure, invisible to your customers, which is the way it should be. You didn't have to worry about it. And you've, you've also attacked the, the labor problem. You're not, you know, provisioning lungs anymore, or, you know, tuning the storage, you know, with, with arms and legs. So that's huge. So that gets me into the next topic, which is business transformation. That, that means that I can now start to attack the operational model. So I've got a different it model. Now I'm not managing infrastructure same way. So I have to shift those resources. And I'm presuming that it's a bus now becomes a business transformation discussion. How are you seeing your customers shift those resources and focus more on their business as a result of this sort of as a service trend? >>I think I do not know if they, they transform their business. Thanks to us. I think that they can more leverage their own business. They have less problems, less maintenance, et cetera, et cetera. But we also add new, uh, certainties to it, like, uh, uh, the, the latest service we we released was imutable storage being the first in the Netherlands offering this thanks to, uh, thanks to the pure technology, but for customers, it takes them to give them a good night rest because, you know, we have some, uh, geopolitical issues in the world. Uh, there's a lot of hacking. People have a lot of ransomware attacks and, and we just give them a good night rest. So from a business transformation, doesn't transform their business. I think that gives them a comfort in running your business, knowing that certain things are well arranged. You don't have to worry about that. We will do that. We'll take it out of your hands and you just go ahead and run your business. Um, so to me, it's not really transformation. It's just using the right opportunities at the right moment. >>The imutable piece is interesting because of course, but speaking of as a service, you know, anybody can go on the dark web and buy ransomware as a service. I mean, as it's, he was seeing the, as a service economy hit, hit everywhere, the good and the, and the not so good. Um, and so I presume that your customers are, are looking at, I imutability as another service capability of the service offering and really rethinking, maybe because of the recent, you know, ransomware attacks, rethinking how they, they approach, uh, business continuance, business resilience, disaster recovery. Do you see that? >>Yep, definitely. Definitely. I, not all of them yet. Imutable storage. So it's like an insurance as well. Yeah. Which you have when you have imutable storage and you have, you have a ransomware attack, at least if you part the data, which never, if data is corrupted, you cannot restore it. If your hardware is broken, you can order new hardware. Every data is corrupted. You cannot order new data. Now we got that safe and well. And so we offer them the possibility to, to do the forensics and free up their, uh, the data without a tremendous loss of time. Uh, but you also see that you raise the new, uh, how do you say, uh, the new baseline for other providers as well? Eh, so there's security of the corporate information security officer, the CIO, they're all fairly happy with that. And they, they, they raise the baseline for others as well. So they can look at other security topics and look from, say a security operation center that now we can really focus on our prime business risks, because from a technical perspective, we got it covered. How can we manage the business risk, uh, which is a combination of people, processes and technology. >>Right. Makes sense. Okay. I'll give you the last word. Uh, talk about your relationship with pure, where you wanna see that, that going in the future. >>Uh, I hope we've be working together for a long time. Uh, I, I ex experienced them very involved. Uh, it's not, we have done the sell and now it's all up to you now. We really closely working together. I know if I talk to my prime marketing, Marcel height is very happy and it looks a little more or less if we work with pure, like we're working with colleagues, not with a supplier, uh, and a customer, uh, and, uh, the whole pure concept is quite fascinating. Uh, I, uh, I had the opportunity to visit San Francisco head office, and they told me to fish in how they launched pure being, if you want to implement it, it had to be on one credit card. The, the, the menu had to be on one credit card, just a simple thought of put that as your big hair, audacious goal to make the simplest, uh, implementable storage available. But for, uh, it gives me the expectation that there will be a lot of more surprises with puring in near future. Uh, and for us as a provider, what we, uh, literally really look forward to is that, that for us, these new developments will not be new migrations. It will be a gradual growth of our services on storage services. Uh, so that's what I expect, and that was what I, and we look forward to. >>Yeah, that's great. Uh, thank you so much, Emil, for coming on the, the cube and, and sharing your thoughts and best of luck to you in the future. >>Thank you. >>You're welcome. Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to give you some closing thoughts on at your storage service. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage.

>>When AWS introduced the modern cloud in 2006, many people didn't realize the impact that it would have on the industry, but some did see the future of an as a service economy coming. I mean, SAS offerings came out several years before. And the idea of applying some of these concepts to infrastructure and simplifying deployment and management, you know, kinda looked enticing to a lot of customers and a subscription model, or, but yet a consumption model was seen as a valuable proposition by many customers. Why not apply it to infrastructure? And why should the hyperscalers have all the fun welcome to at your storage service? My name is Dave ante. And as an analyst at the time, I was excited about the, as a service trend early on. And one of the companies that caught my attention back in the beginning of last decade was pure storage. >>Pure not only was delivering cloud- simplicity, but it's no forklift approach to infrastructure was ahead of its time. And that's why we're here today to dig into what's happening with the, as a service trends that we see popping up all over the world today, we're gonna dig into three sessions with noted experts in the field. First pre Darie is the general manager of the digital experience business unit at pure storage. He's gonna join us. And then we bring in Steve McDowell, Steve's a senior analyst for data and storage at more insights and strategy, a well known consultancy and analyst firm. And finally, we close with Amil sta Emil is the chief commercial officer and chief marketing officer at open line, open lines, a managed service provider. They serve the mid-market and Emil's got a very wide observation space. He's gonna share what he's seeing with customers. So sit back and enjoy the show. >>The cloud has popularized many useful concepts in the past decade, working backwards from the customer two pizza teams, a DevOps mindset, the shared responsibility model in security. And of course the shift from CapEx to OPEX and as a service consumption models. The last item is what we're here to talk about today. Pay for consumption is attractive because you're not over provisioning. At least not the way you used to you'd have to buy for peak capacity events, but there are always two sides to every story and well pay for use more closely ties. It consumption to business value procurement teams. Don't always love the uncertainty of the cloud bill each month, but consumption pricing. And as a service models are here to stay in software and hardware. Hello, I'm Dave ante and welcome to at your storage service made possible by pure storage. And with me is Pash DJI. Who's the general manager of the digital experience business unit at pure Pash. Welcome to the program. >>Thanks Dave. Thanks for having me. >>You bet. Okay. We've seen this shift to, as a service, the, as a service economy, subscription models, and this as a service movement have gained real momentum. It's it's clear over the past several years, what's driving this shift. Is it pressure from investors and technology companies that are chasing the all important ARR, their annual recurring revenue stream? Is it customer driven? Give us your insights. >>Well, look, um, I think we'll do some definitional stuff first. I think we often mix the definition of a subscription and a service, but, you know, subscription is, Hey, I can go for pay up front or pay as I go. Service is more about how do I not buy something just by the outcome. So, you know, the concept of delivering storage as a service means, what do you want in storage performance, capacity availability? Like that's what you want. Well, how do you get that without having to worry about the labor of planning capacity management, those labor elements are what's driving it. So I think in the world where you have to do more with less and in a world where security becomes increasingly important, where standardization will allow you to secure your landscape against ransomware and those types of things, those trends are driving the ation of storage and the only way to deliver that is storage as a service. >>So that's, that's good. You maybe thinking about it differently than some of the other companies that I talked to, but so you, you, you've made inroads here pretty big inroads actually, and changed the thinking in enterprise data storage with a huge emphasis on simplicity. That's really pures rayon Detra. How does storage as a service fit into your innovation agenda overall? >>Well, our innovation agenda started, as you mentioned with the simplicity, you know, a decade ago with the evergreen architecture, that architecture was beyond the box. How do you go ahead and say, I can improve performance or capacity as I need it? Well, that's a foundational element to deliver a service because once you have that technology, you can say, oh, you know what? You've subscribed to this performance level. You want to raise your performance level and yes, that'll be a higher dollar per gig or dollar per terabyte. But how do you do that without a data migration? How do you do that with a non disruptive service change? How do you do that with a delivery via a software update, those elements of non disruptive updates. When you think SAS, Salesforce, you don't know when Salesforce doesn't update, you don't know when they're increasing something, adding a new capability just shows up. It's not a disruptive event. So to drive that standardization and sation and service delivery, you need to keep that simplicity of delivery first and foremost, and you can't allow, like, if the goal was, I want to change from this service tier to that service tier and a person needed to show up and do a day data migration, that's kind of useless. You've broken the experience of flexibility for a customer. >>Okay. So I like the Salesforce analogy, but I wanna jump out, do a little side for a second. So I I've gotta, I've gotta make some commitment to pure, right. Some baseline commitment. And if I do, then I can dial up and pay for what I use and I can dial it down. Correct? Correct. Okay. I can't do that with Salesforce. <laugh> right. I could dial up, but then I'm stuck with those licenses. So you have a better model in Salesforce. I would argue. Okay. Yeah, >>I would, I would agree with that. >>Okay. So, and I gotta pay for everything up front anyway. Um, let's go back. I was kind of pushing at you a little bit at my upfront, you know, about, you know, the ARR model, the, the all important, you know, financial metric, but let's talk from the customers standpoint. What are the benefits of consuming storage as a service from your customer's perspective? >>Well, one is when you start your storage journey, do you really know what you need? And I would argue most of the time people are guessing, right? It's like, well, I think I need this. This is the performance I think I need. Or this is the capacity I think I need. And, you know, with the scientific method, you actually deploy something and you're like, do I need more? Do I need less? You find out as you're deploying. So in a storage as a service world, when you have the ability to move up performance levels or move out capacity levels, and you have that flexibility, then you have the ability to just to meet demand as you deploy. And that's the most important element of meeting business needs today. The applications you deploy are not in your control when you're providing storage to your end consumers. >>Yeah. They're gonna want different levels of storage. They're gonna want different performance thresholds. That's kind of a pay, you know, pay for performance type culture, right? You can use HR analogies for it. You pay for performance. You want top talent, you pay for it. You want top storage performance, you pay for it. Um, you don't, you can pay less and you can actually get lower performance, tiers, not everything is a tier one application. And you need the ability to deploy it. But when you start, how do you know the way your end customers are gonna be consuming? Or do you need a dictated upfront? Cause that's infrastructure dictating business inflexibility, and you never want to be in that position. >>I, I got another analogy for you. It's like, you know, we do a lot of hosting at our home and you know, like Thanksgiving, right? And you go to the liquor store and say, okay, what should I get? Should we get red wine? We gotta go white wine. We gotta get some beer. Should I get bubbles? Yeah, I get some bubbles. Cause you don't know what people are gonna have. And so you over provision everything <laugh> and then there's a run on bubbles and you're like, ah, we run outta bubbles. So you just over buy, but there's a liquor store that actually will take it back. So I gotta do business with those guys every time. Cuz it's way more flexible. I can dial up capacity or can dial up performance and dial it back down if I don't use it >>Or you or you're gonna be drinking a lot more the next few weeks. >>Yeah, exactly. Which is the last thing you want. Okay. So let's talk about how pure kind of meets this as a service demand. You've touched upon your, your differentiators from others in the market. Um, you know, love to hear about the momentum. What, what are you seeing out there? >>Yeah. Look, our business is growing well, largely built on, you know, what customers need. Um, specifically where the market is at today is there's a set of folks that are interested in the financial transformation of CapEx to OPEX, where like that definitely exists in the industry around how do I get a pay use model? The next kind of more advanced customer is interested in how do I go ahead and remove labor to deliver storage? And a service gets you there on top of a subscription. The most sophisticated customer says, how do I separate storage production with consumption and production of storage. Being a storage producer should be about standardization. So I could do policy based management. Why is that important? You know, coming back to some of the things I said earlier in the world where ransomware attacks are common, you need the standardized security policies. >>Linux has new vulnerabilities every, every other day, like find 2, 2, 3 critical vulnerabilities a week. How do you stay on top of it? The complexity of staying on top of it should be, look, let's standardize and make it a vendor problem. And assume the vendor's gonna deliver this to me. So that standardization allows you to have business policies that allow you to stay current and modern. I would argue in, you know, the traditional storage and appliance world, you buy something and the day a, the day after you buy it, it's worthless. It's like driving a car off a lot, right? The very next day, the car's not worth what it was when you bought it. Storage is the same way. So how do you ensure that your storage stays current? How do you ensure that it gets like a fine line that gets better, better with age? Well, if you're not buying storage and you're buying a performance SLA, it's up to the vendor to meet that SLA. So it actually never gets worse over time. This is the way you modernize technology and avoid technology debt as a customer. >>Yeah. I mean, just even though words you're using in the way you're thinking about this precaution, I think are, are, are different. Uh, and I love the concept of essentially taking my labor cost and transferring them to pures R and D I mean, that's essentially what you're talking about here. Um, so let's, let's, let's stick with the, the, the tech for a minute. What do you see as new or emerging technologies that are helping accelerate this shift toward the, as a service economy? >>Well, the first thing is I always tell people, you can't deliver a service without monitoring, because if you can't monitor something, how you're gonna know what your, whether you're meeting your service level obligation, right? So everything starts with data monitoring. The next step layering on the technology. Differentiation is if you need to deliver a service level, OB obligation on top of that data monitoring, you need the ability to flexibly, meet whatever performance obligations you have in a tight time window. So supply chain and being able to deliver anywhere becomes important. So if you use the analogy today of how Tesla works or a IOT system works, you have a SaaS management that actually provides instructions that push pushes those instructions and policies to the edge. In Tesla's case, that happens to be the car it'll push software updates to the car. It'll push new map updates to the car, but the car is running independently. >>It's not like if the car becomes disconnected from the internet, it's gonna crash and drive you off the road in the same way. What if you think about storage as something that needs to be wherever your application is? So people think about cloud as a destination. I think that's a fallacy. You have to think about the world in the world in the view of an application, an application needs data, and that data needs to sit in storage wherever that application sits. So for us, the storage system is just an edge device. It can be sitting in your data center, it can be sitting in a Equinix. It can be sitting in hosted, an MSP can run. It can, can even be sitting in the public cloud, but how do you have central monitoring and central management where you can push policies to update all those devices? >>Very similar to an I IOT system. So the technology advantage of doing that means that you can operate anywhere and ensure you have a consistent set of policies, a consistent set of protection, a consistent set of, you know, prevention against ransomware attack, regardless of your application, regardless of, uh, you know, where it sits, regardless of what content in you're on that approach is very similar to the way the T industry has been updating and monitoring edge devices, nest, thermostats, you know, Tesla cars, those types of things. That's the thinking that needs to come to. And that's the foundation on which we built PI as a service. >>So that implies, or at least I infer that you've obviously got control of the experience on Preem, but you're extending that, uh, into AWS, Google Azure, which suggests to me that you have to hide the underlying complexity of the primitives and APIs in that world. And then eventually, actually today, cuz you're treating everything like the edge out to the edge, you know, maybe, maybe mini pure at some point in time. But so I call that super cloud that abstraction layer that floats above all the clouds on-prem and adds that layer of value. And is this singular experience? What you're talking about pushing, you know, policy throughout, is that the right way to think about it and how does this impact the ability to deliver true storage as a service? >>Oh, uh, that's absolutely the right way of thinking about it. The things that you think about from a, an abstraction kind of fall in three buckets, first, you need management. So how do you ensure a consistent management experience creating volumes, deleting volumes, creating buckets, creating files, creating directories, like management of objects and create a consistent API across the entire landscape. The second one is monitoring, how do you measure utilization and performance obligations or capacity obligations or uh, you know, policy violations, wherever you're at. And then the third one is more of a business one, which is procurement because you can't do it independent of procurement. Meaning what happens when you run out, you need to increase your reserve commits. Do you want to go on demand? How do you integrate it into company's procurement models, such that you can say, I can use what I need and any, it's not like every change order is a request of procurement. That's gonna break an as a service delivery model. So to get embedded in a customer's landscape where they don't have to worry about storage, you have to provide that consistency on management, monitoring and procurement across the tech. And yes, this is deep technology problems, whether it's running our storage on AWS or Azure or running it on prem or, you know, at some point in the future, maybe even, um, you know, pure mini at the edge. Right. <laugh> so, you know, tho all of those things are tied to our pure, a service delivery. >>Yeah, technically non-trivial but uh, Hey, you guys are on it. Well, we gotta leave it there. Pash. Thank you. Great stuff. Really appreciate your time. >>All right. Thanks for having me, man. >>You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, Steve McDowell from more insights and strategies, it's gonna give us the analyst perspective on, as a service, you're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >>Why are customers making the change to pure as a service >>Other vendors, offering flexible consumption models will promise you the world on the surface. It's just what you need. But then you notice the asterisk that dreaded fine print. That turns just what you need into long-term commitments, disruptive upgrades and unpredictable costs, pure storage, launched pure as a service to provide the flexibility to respond to your ever changing needs. With clear per unit costs, no large upfront purchases and no asterisks. A usage based model should be simple, innovative, and adapt with the changing market. Unlike other vendors, pure is offering exactly that with options, for service tiers and short term contracts in a single unified subscription that allows you to improve your discounts over time. Pure makes sure you can grow and upgrade without ever taking your environment offline and without the constant worry of hidden costs with complete billing, transparency, unlike any other, you only pay for what you use and pure one helps track and predict demand from day to day, making sure you never outgrow your storage. So why are customers making the change to pure as a service convenient solutions with unlimited potential without the dreaded fine print? It's as simple as that, >>We're back with Steve McDowell, the principal analyst for data and storage at more insights and strategy. Hey Steve, great to have you on, tell us a little bit about yourself. You got a really interesting background and kind of a blend of engineering and strategy and what's your research focus? >>Yeah, so my research, my focus area is data and storage and all the things around that, right? Whether it's OnPrim or cloud or, or, or, you know, software as a service. Uh, my background, as you said, is a blend, right? I grew up as an engineer. I started off as an OS developer at IBM. Uh, came up through the ranks and, and shifted over into corporate strategy and product marketing and product management. Uh, and I've been doing, uh, working as an industry analyst now for about five years, more insights and strategy. >>Steve, how do you see this playing out in the next three to five years? I mean, cloud got it all started. It's gonna snowballing, you know, however you look at it, percent of spending on storage that you think is gonna land in as a service. How, how do you see the evolution here? >>I think it buyers are looking at as a service, a consumption based is, is, uh, uh, you know, a natural model. It extends the data center, brings all of the flexibility, all of the goodness that I get from public cloud, but without all of the downside and uncertainty around cost and security and things like that, right. That also come with a public cloud and it's delivered by technology providers that I trust and that I know, and that I've worked with, you know, for, in some cases, decades. So I don't know that we have hard data on how much, uh, adoption there is of the model, but we do know that it's trending up, uh, you know, and every infrastructure provider at this point has some flavor of offering in the space. So it's, it's clearly popular with CIOs and, and it practitioners alike. >>So Steve organizations are at a they're different levels of maturity in their, their transformation journeys. And of course, as a result, they're gonna have different storage needs that are aligned with their bottom line business objectives. From an it buyer perspective, you may have data on this, even if it's anecdotal, where does storage as a service actually fit in and can it be a growth lever >>Can absolutely be, uh, a growth leader. Uh, it, it gives me the flexibility as, as an it architect to scale my business over time, without worrying about how much money I have to invest in, in storage hardware. Right? So I, I get kind of, again, that cloudlike flexibility in terms of procurement and deployment. Uh, but it gives me that control by oftentimes being on site within my permit. And I manage it like a storage array that I own. Uh, so you know, it, it's, it's beautiful for, for organizations that are scaling and, and it's equally nice for organizations that just wanna manage and control cost over time. Um, so it's, it's a model that makes a lot of sense and fits and, and certainly growing in adoption and popularity. >>How about from a technology vendor perspective you've worked for in the, in the tech industry mm-hmm <affirmative> for, for companies? What do you think is gonna define the winners and losers in this space? If you were running strategy for, uh, storage company, what would you say? >>I, I think the days of, of a storage administrator managing, you know, rate levels and recovering and things of that sort are over, right, what would, what these organizations like pure delivering, but they're offerings is, is simplicity. It's a push button approach to deploying storage to the applications and workloads that need it, right. It becomes storage as a utility. So it's not just the, you know, the consumption based economic model of, of, uh, as a service. Uh, it, it's also the manageability that comes with that, or the flexibility of management that comes with that. I can push a button, deploy bites to, to, uh, you know, a workload that needs it. Um, and it just becomes very simple, right. For the storage administrator in a way that, you know, kind of old school OnPrim storage can't really deliver. >>You know, I wanna, I wanna ask you, I mean, I've been thinking about this because again, a lot of companies are, are, you know, moving, hopping on the, as a service bandwagon, I feel like, okay, in and of itself, that's not where the innovation lives, the innovation is gonna come from making that singular experience from on-prem to the clouds across clouds, maybe eventually out to the edge. Um, do you, do you, where do you see the innovation in as a service? >>Well, there there's two levels of innovation, right? One, one is business model innovation, right? I, I now have an organizational flexibility to build the infrastructure, to support my digital transformation efforts. Um, but on the product side and the offering side, it really is, as you said, it's about the integration of experience. Every enterprise today touches a cloud in some way, shape or form, right. I have data spread, not just in my data center, but at the edge, uh, oftentimes in a public cloud, maybe a private cloud, I don't know where my data is and it really lands on the storage providers to help me manage that and deliver that, uh, uh, manageability experience, uh, to, to the it administrators. So when I look at innovation in this space, you know, it's not just a storage array and rack that I'm leasing, right? This is not another lease model. It's really fully integrated, you know, end to end management of my data and, and, you know, and all of the things around that. >>Yeah. So you, to your point about a lease model is if you're doing a lease, you know, yeah. You can shift CapEx to OPEX, but you're still committed to, to, you have to over provision, whereas here, and I wanted to ask you about that. It's, it's, it's, it's an interesting model, right? Cuz you gotta read the fine print. Of course the fine print says you gotta commit to some level typically. And then if, you know, if you go over you, you charge for what you use and you can scale that back down and that's, that's gotta be very attractive for folks. I, I wonder if you will ever see like true cloud-like consumption pricing, that is two edges to it. Right. You see consumption based pricing in some of the software models and you know yeah. People like it, the lines of business maybe cuz they pay in by the drink, but then procurement hates it cuz they don't have predictability. How do you see the pricing models? Do you see that maturing or do you think we're sort of locked in on, on where we're at? >>No, I, I do. I do see that maturing. Right? And, and when you work with a company like pure to understand their consumption based and as a service offerings, uh, it, it really is sitting down and understanding where your data needs are going to scale, right? You, you buy in at a certain level, uh, you have capacity planning. You can expand if you need to, you can shrink if you need to. So it really does put more control in the hands of the it buyer than uh, well certainly then traditional CapEx based on-prem but also more control than you would get, you know, working with an Amazon or an Azure. >>Okay. Thanks Steve. We'll leave it there for now. I'd love to have you back. Keep it right there at your storage service continues in a moment. >>Some things are meant to last your storage should be one of them say hello to the evergreen storage program, say goodbye to refreshes and rebates. Forget planned downtime, performance impact and data migrations. Forget forklift upgrades. Evergreen storage starts with your agile storage architecture and covers the entire life cycle of the array from first purchase to ongoing use. And whenever it's time to modernize and grow, your satisfaction is covered with an evergreen subscription. 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One of them >>We're back at your storage service. Emil Stan is here. He's the chief commercial officer and chief marketing officer of open line. Thank you Emil for coming on the cube. Appreciate your time. >>Thank you, David. Nice. Uh, glad to be here. >>Yes. Yeah. So tell us about open line. You're a managed service provider. What's your focus? >>Yeah, we're actually a cloud managed service provider and I do put cloud in front of the managed services because it's not just only the spheres that we manage. We have to manage the clouds as well nowadays. And then unfortunately, everybody only thinks there's one cloud, but it's always multiple layers in the cloud. So we have a lot of work in integrating it. We're a cloud manages provider in the Netherlands, focusing on, uh, companies who have head office in the Netherlands, mainly in the, uh, healthcare local government, social housing logistics department. And then in the midst size companies between say 250 to 10,000 office employees. Uh, and that's what we do. We provide 'em with excellent cloud managed services, uh, as it should be >>Interesting, you know, a lot early on in the cloud days, highly regulated industries like healthcare government were somewhat afraid of the cloud. So I'm sure that's one of the ways in which you provide value to your customers is helping them become cloud proficient. Maybe you could talk a little bit more about the value prop to customers. Why do they do business with you? >>And I think, uh, there are a number of reasons why they do business with us or choose to choose for our manage services provider that first of course are looking for stability and continuity. Uh, and, and from a cost perspective, predict predictable costs. But nowadays you also have a shortage in personnel and knowledge. So, and it's not always very easy for them to access, uh, those skill sets because most it, people just want to have, uh, a great variety in work, what they are doing, uh, towards, towards the local government, uh, healthcare, social housing. They actually, uh, a sector that, uh, that are really in between embracing the public cloud, but also have a lot of legacy and, and bringing together best of all, worlds is what we do. So we also bring them comfort. We do understand what legacy, uh, needs from a manager's perspective. We also know how to leverage the benefits in the public cloud. Uh, and, uh, I'd say from a marketing perspective, actually we focus on using an ideal cloud, being a mix of traditional and future based cloud. >>Thank you. I, you know, I'd like to get your perspective on this idea of as a service and the, as a service economy that we often talk about on the cube. I mean, you work with a lot of different companies. We talked about some of the industries and, and increasingly it seems like organizations are focused more on outcomes, continuous value delivery via, you know, suites of services and, and they're leaning into platforms versus one off product offerings, you know, do you see that? How do you see your customers reacting to this as a service trend? >>Yeah. Uh, to be honest, sometimes it makes it more complex because services like, look at your Android or iPhone, you can buy apps, uh, and download apps the way you want to. So they have a lot of apps about how do you integrate it into one excellent workflow, something that works for you, David or works for me. Uh, so the difficulty, some sometimes lies in, uh, the easy accessibility that you have to those solutions, but nobody takes into account that they're all part of a chain, a workflow supply chain, uh, and, and, uh, they're being hyped as well. So what we also have a lot of time in, in, in, in managing our customers is that the tremendous feature push feature push that there is from technology providers, SaaS providers. Whereas if you provide 10 features, you only need one or two, uh, but the other eight are very distracting from your prime core business. Uh, so there's a natural way in that people are embracing, uh, SA solutions, embracing cloud solutions. Uh, but what's not taken into account as much is that we love to see it is the way that you integrate all those solutions toward something that's workable for the person that's actually using them. And it's seldomly that somebody is only using one solution. There's always a chain of solutions. Um, so yeah, there are a lot of opportunities, but also a lot of challenges for us, but also for our customers, >>You see that trend toward, as a service continuing, or do you actually see based on what you're just saying that pendulum, you know, swinging back and forth, somebody comes out with a new sort of feature product and that, you know, changes the dynamic or do you see as a service really having legs? >>Ah, I, I think that's very, very good question, David, because that's something that's keeping our busy all the time. We do see a trend in a service looking at, uh, talk about pure later on. We also use pure as a service more or less. Yeah. And that really helps us. Uh, but you see, uh, um, that sometimes people make a step too, too fast, too quick, not well thought of, and then you see what they call sort of cloud repatriation, tend that people go back to what they're doing and then they stop innovating or stop leveraging. The possibilities are actually there. Uh, so from our consultancy, our guidance and architecture point of view, we try to help them as much as possible to think in a SA thought, but just don't use the, cloud's just another data center. Uh, and so it's all about managing the maturity on our side, but on our customer side as well. >>So I'm interested in how your sort of your philosophy and, and as relates, I think in, in, in terms of how you work with pure, but how do you stay tightly in lockstep with your customers so that you don't over rotate so that you don't and send them to over rotate, but then you're not also, you don't wanna be too late to the game. How, how do you manage all that? >>Oh, there's, there's, there's a world of interactions between us and our customers. And so I think a well known, uh, uh, thing that people is customer intimacy. That's very important for us to get to know our customers and get to predict which way they're moving. But the, the thing that we add to it is also the ecosystem intimacy. So no, the application and services landscape, our customers know the primary providers and work with them, uh, to, to, to create something that, that really fits the customers. They just not looked at from our own silo where a cloud managed service provider that we actually work in the ecosystem with, with, with, with the primary providers. And we have, I think with the average customers, I think we have, uh, uh, in a month we have so much interactions on our operational level and technical levels, strategic level. >>We do bring together our customers also, and to jointly think about what we can do together, what we independently can never reach. Uh, but we also involve our customers in, uh, defining our own strategy. So we have something we call a customer involvement board. So we present a strategy and say, does it make sense? Eh, this is actually what you need also. So we take a lot of our efforts into our customers and we do also, uh, understand the significant moments of truth. We are now in this, in this broadcast, David there. So you can imagine that at this moment, not thinking go wrong. Yeah. If, if, if the internet stops that we have a problem. And now, so we, we actually know that this broadcast is going on for our customers and we manage that. It's always on, uh, uh, where in the other moments in the week, we might have a little less attention, but this moment we should be there. And these moments of truth that we really embrace, we got them well described. Everybody working out line knows what the moment of truth is for our customers. Uh, uh, so we have a big logistics provider. For instance, you does not have to ask us to, uh, have, uh, a higher availability on black Friday or cyber Monday. We know that's the most important part in the year for him or her. Does it answer your question, David? >>Yes. We know as well. You know, when these big, the big game moments you have to be on your top, uh, top of your game, uh, you know, the other thing Emil about this as a service approach that I really like is, is it's a lot of it is consumption based and the data doesn't lie, you can see adoption, you know, daily, weekly, monthly. And so I wonder how you're leveraging pure as a service specifically in what kind of patterns you're seeing in, in, in the adoption. >>Uh, yeah, pure as a service for our customers is mainly never visible. Uh, we provide storage services to provide storage solutions, storage over is part of a bigger thing of a server of application. Uh, so the real benefits, to be honest, of course, towards our customer, it's all flash, uh, uh, and they have the fastest, fastest storage is available. But for ourself, we, uh, we use less resources to manage our storage. We have far more that we have a near to maintenance free storage solution now because we have it as a service and we work closely together with pure. Uh, so, uh, actually the way we treat our customers is that way pure treats us as well. And that's why there's a used click. So the real benefits, uh, uh, how we leverage is it normally we had a bunch of guys managing our storage. Now we only have one and knowing that's a shortage of it, personnel, the other persons can well be, uh, involved in other parts of our services or in other parts of an innovation. So, uh, that's simply great. >>You know, um, my takeaway the meal is that you've made infrastructure, at least, least the storage infrastructure, invisible to your customers, which is the way it should be. You didn't have to worry about it. And you've, you've also attacked the, the labor problem. You're not, you know, provisioning lungs anymore, or, you know, tuning the storage, you know, with, with arms and legs. So that's huge. So that gets me into the next topic, which is business transformation. That, that means that I can now start to attack the operational model. So I've got a different it model. Now I'm not managing infrastructure same way. So I have to shift those resources. And I'm presuming that it's a bus now becomes a business transformation discussion. How are you seeing your customers shift those resources and focus more on their business as a result of this sort of as a service trend? >>I think I do not know if they, they transform their business. Thanks to us. I think that they can more leverage their own business. They have less problems, less maintenance, et cetera, cetera, but we also add new, uh, certainties to it, like, uh, uh, the, the latest service we we released was imutable storage being the first in the Netherlands offering this thanks to, uh, thanks to the pure technology, but for customers, it takes them to give them a good night rest because, you know, we have some, uh, geopolitical issues in the world. Uh, there's a lot of hacking. People have a lot of ransomware attacks and, and we just give them a good night rest. So from a business transformation, does it transform their business? I think that gives them a comfort in running your business, knowing that certain things are well arranged. You don't have to worry about that. We will do that. We'll take it out of your hands and you just go ahead and run your business. Um, so to me, it's not really a transformation is just using the right opportunities at the right moment. >>The imutable piece is interesting because, because, but speaking of as a service, you know, anybody can go on the dark web and buy ransomware as a service. I mean, as it's seeing the, as a service economy hit, hit everywhere, the good and the, and the not so good. Um, and so I presume that your customers are, are looking at, I imutability as another service capability of the service offering and really rethinking, maybe because of the recent, you know, ransomware attacks, rethinking how they, they approach, uh, business continuance, business resilience, disaster recovery. Do you see that? >>Yep, definitely. Definitely. I tell not all of them yet. Imutable storage. So it's like an insurance as well, which you have when you have imutable storage and you have been, you have a ransomware attack at least have you part of data, which never, if data is corrupted, you cannot restore it. If your hardware is broken, you can order new hardware. Every data is corrupted. You cannot order new data. Now we got that safe and well. And so we offer them the possibility to, to do the forensics and free up their, uh, the data without tremendous loss of time. Uh, but you also see that you raise the new, uh, how do you say, uh, the new baseline for other providers as well? Eh, so there's security of the corporate information security officer, the CIO, they're all very happy with that. And they, they, they raise the baseline for us as well. So they can look at other security topics and look from say, security operation center. Cuz now we can really focus on our prime business risks because from a technical perspective, we got it covered. How can we manage the business risk, uh, which is a combination of people, processes and technology. >>Right. Makes sense. Okay. I'll give you the last word. Uh, talk about your relationship with pure, where you wanna see that that going in the future. >>Uh, I hope we've be working together for a long time. Uh, I, I ex experienced them very involved. Uh, it's not, we have done the sell and now it's all up to you now. We were closely working together. I know if I talk to my prime architect, Marcel height is very happy and it looks a little more or less if we work with pure, like we're working with colleagues, not with a supplier and a customer, uh, and uh, the whole pure concept is fascinating. Uh, I, uh, I had the opportunity to visit San Francisco head office and they told me to fish in how they launched, uh, pure being, if you want to implement it, it had to be on one credit card. The, the, the menu had to be on one credit card. Just a simple thought of put that as your big area, audacious goal to make the simplest, uh, implementable storage available. But for us, uh, it gives me the expectation that there will be a lot of more surprises with pur in the near future. Uh, and for us as a provider, what we, uh, literally really look forward to is that, that for us, these new developments will not be new migrations. It will be a gradual growth of our services or storage services. Uh, so that's what I expect. And that was what I, and we look forward to. >>Yeah, that's great. Uh, thank you so much, Emil, for coming on the, the cube and, and sharing your thoughts and best of luck to you in the future. >>Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. >>You're very welcome. Okay. In a moment, I'll be back to give you some closing thoughts on at your storage service. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech enterprise coverage. >>Welcome to evergreen, a place where organizations grow and thrive rooted in the modern data experience in evergreen people find a seamless, simple way to leverage data through market leading sustainable technology, financial flexibility, and effortless management, allowing everyone to innovate with data confidently. Welcome to pure storage. >>Now, if you're interested in hearing more about Pure's growing portfolio of technology and services and how they're transforming the enterprise data experience, be sure to register for pure accelerate tech Fest. 22 digital event is also taking place as an in-person event. On June 8th, you can register at pure storage.com/accelerate, pure storage.com/accelerate. You're watching the cue, the leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>>Hello from Las Vegas. It's the cube live at AWS reinvent 2021, Lisa Martin and Dave Nicholson here. We're in our fourth day, Dave, we have two live sets of the kid. There's a dueling set right across from us, kind of like dueling pianos, only a little bit louder. We have had about a hundred guests on the program at AWS reinvent this year. And we're pleased to welcome back. One of our alumni, Richard Potter joins us the CEO of peak. Richard. Welcome back to the cube. >>Great to be here. Talk to >>Us. So we haven't seen you in a couple of years. Talk to us about what's going on at pink. I know there's some news. >>Yeah, yeah. Loads of things going on at peak. I mean, we've been growing really quick. So since the last time you saw us, which was yeah, in London a few years ago, uh, we've grown to be the, sort of essentially the global leader in decision intelligence systems. Um, us as an AI company, we specialize in putting artificial intelligence right into the heart of how companies run their businesses and make their day-to-day decisions, which is why we call it decision intelligence. We think it's the biggest thing in software and, uh, probably the biggest new category of software. Um, we will see this decade. So it's super exciting to be in that position and great to be back chatting to you guys on the cube. When were you based founded? We were founded in 2016. Uh, and, uh, yeah. And you can probably tell by my accent English company headquartered in Manchester, but we're global. Now we have operations in India. We have a couple of development centers in India. We have a growing customer base in Asia and a growing customer base in the U S as well. Uh, so yeah, we're kind of international, but born out of, uh, Northern English roots. >>I like it. Talk to me about back in 2016, what were some of the gaps in the market that you saw from a, because you know, as, as here we are in almost 20, 22, every company is a data company. They have to be being able to extract intelligence timely hard. What gaps did you see back in 2016 >>Back then a read on the market was really simple, which was the companies that are going to harness data to run themselves well, we'll win, but the most companies were struggling to make that change to be data-driven. So our rich was, you know, as founders, there's three of us who started the business was trying to explore that problem. Like what, what, what stops companies running on data? And there's loads of reasons, right? Tech ones, uh, skills, ones, even just like business people using data in their day-to-day decision-making rather than say their gut-feel, which I think is also a data-driven decision. They just don't understand that necessarily. Uh, so we really honed in on that problem and we grew quite quickly to be the leading business in that sort of applied data space in the UK, you know, a market leader in, uh, helping companies perform better with data. And over time that has taken us on this journey to be the sort of global leader in decision intelligence, which is really cool. But the itch we were scratching was that, Hey, you know, there's something in this, we think companies that do this and do it well are gonna win, but no one's doing it. So why is that? And then, and then we've built software that effectively responds to that opportunity. >>You mentioned harnessing data. Yeah. How do you balance the harnessing of data successfully with being harnessed by data? Because, because if you're talking about the concept of Dai yeah. Who's making the decision. If the machine is making the decision, I better trust it. Why should I trust it? So how do you, how do you strike that balance to get people to trust what you're doing? The work you're doing for them behind the scenes? Yeah, >>I think it's, it's really important that humans trust the machines that they're working alongside. And I think that's the big change we're seeing, right? So this is a new industrial revolution, the intelligence era that we're in, but all previous industrial revolutions have all amplified human potential. They've amplified like a physical potential, whether it was, you know, machinery, steam, power and so on, or computers have amplified our cognitive capability, but humans have always controlled those machines. If you think about it now in the intelligence era, our machines can think with us, they can think alongside us. So we have to learn how to, as people, how to co-exist with those machines and then let those machines amplify us and essentially make us superhuman and what we do. And that's a part of the challenge we face at peak as to how do we make, how do we humanize that? >>How do we make it such that everyone trusts the machine? Uh, and we always have that human in the loop is the way we think about it. Uh, decision intelligence empowers us to be awesome at our jobs, make the great decisions all the time. If we trust the machine so much that we just want it to make the decision for us, we can let it, but we're always in control and we're in control of how it thinks and what it does. And it's our job as a software company to build software that lets you understand why that recommendation or that decision is being suggested to you. So I think, I think the coexistence of our machines alongside people in a new way that a human to machine interface is going to completely change with artificial intelligence and decision intelligence and, and us as people we're going to have to relearn how we, how we work with our technology. >>You just mentioned a couple of really good words in terms of, of the people, part of people, process and technologies, amplify and empower. Those are two things that stuck out at me is that's what you're giving people in any, whether they're an operations or finance or marketing, it's the amplification to do their jobs, empowering them to do their jobs with data that will help make them more skilled and better able to make decisions that benefit themselves, the company. >>That's exactly right. Yeah, because if you, if you redact doing business to its basics, it's, it's actually just making decisions, right. Companies are make great decisions. They win and those decisions could be anything, you know, they could be product decisions, they could be pricing decisions, operational supply chain decisions, but it's a sequence of decisions that creates value for my company. And so that's why I believe this technology is so empowering because as people we're, we're actually great at making those decisions. What we're not great at is making those decisions 24 by seven really, really quickly, very consistently. So, you know, humans are awesome at forecasting. They're awesome at choosing pricing that would appeal to other people, but alongside this technology, we can have machines that do a lot of that thinking for us, speed us up and help us make more, um, quick, great consistently awesome decisions. And then that just makes us great at our jobs. If you're a marketeer or in finance or in supply chain, you, you become awesome. And I think that that, that empowerment is key to the sort of humanization of AI in business. And actually that's what it means in practice. It isn't AI coming for peoples' jobs or replacing jobs. It's it's AI helping us all be gray. And our companies grow faster with wider profit margins when we do that, which creates more jobs for people, which is really cool. >>So, um, we talk about people trusting machines to do things for them. Uh, it's, it's not necessarily a new concept. We just sort of take some of those things for granted. Um, I trust my refrigerator at home to measure the internal temperature and make adjustments as necessary. Turn the compressor on, turn the compressor off. And I'm sorry, I you're from England refrigerators, this thing, it's a box. We use it to refrigerate our beer, which I took to make it >>Cold, which I know. >>So it's kind of a, you know, got to love those cliches, but so can you give us an example of a situation where a customer is trusting something that it's gotten from DEI from peak, where if you, as the CEO heard that anecdotal story, you would be absolutely delighted. >>Well, I think the earth is loads of great examples of that. So, um, the reason we call it decision intelligence decision intelligence is because it's the, it's applying AI into the active decision making, right? Uh, artificial intelligence or machine learning is making a prediction or a categorization over a huge data set. Right? But that on its own is kind of useless. You need to take that prediction that forward looking view and then effectively infuse it with business logic constraints and like knowledge of how your company works to give you a recommendation. Right? So let's just say I'm a marketeer and I'm trying to work out who I should send a particular offer to on black Friday over email, or even not even over email over any channel. When, if I, if I was CEO and I heard one of my teams say, Hey, what I've done is I've used the decision intelligence platform to tell me who buy, who are my customers that are in market for X type of products at why kind of price and what channels do they like to be communicated to over? >>Uh, I would think that's awesome. And then that market here, we're typically infuse that message with the sort of language and content that would appeal to that customer. But they're using the artificial intelligence to be super targeted and really like deliver the message to that person in the way they want to consume it, which creates a really enjoyable experience as a customer. You don't feel spammed or you don't feel like it's effectively used. You feel like you're having a direct one-to-one personal communication with the brand or retailer. That's talking to you, which in itself creates loyalty and like increases the lifetime value of that relationship, which is great for the retailer. But I think using AI for those kinds of decisions is essentially like a great example of like amplifying the human potential of a marketing team for this. >>Absolutely. Because what we expect as consumers, regardless of what the product or service is, is that we want brands to know who we are, what we want. Don't if I just bought a tent on Amazon, don't show me more tests, show me other things that go with it. I want you to know that. And so we have this expectation that brands when whatever industry they're in, no, oh, Richard bought this. >>Exactly, exactly. So, and I think that it starts to really jar. Now you've got some retailers and brands doing this really well, and you get really enjoyable, uh, communications at the frequency you want with the offers and the promotions that were irrelevant to you. When you just start to get trapped, you know, effectively stalked around the internet for something you've already bought, it becomes really jarring and frustrating. And then that actually creates a negative brand effect for that particular brand. So it's super important that these retailers, CPG com everyone really moves to this way of thinking and tries to have a direct. And that's the beauty of AI and decision intelligence. I think for retail, if we get into retail specifically, it allows us to treat every individual customer individually because we can use the machine to make decisions on a per customer basis. And then our marketing can be amplified by that. Whereas in the past, we bucketed customers into groups and just treated them all the same, which does create a rather impersonal experience. >>Yeah. Which can be a negative for a brand, as you mentioned, but give them the ability to treat people individually, but at scale, and in real time, one of the things we learned in the pandemic is that real-time data access isn't no is not a nice to have. It's an essential one of the themes too, that Dave and I have been talking about the last few days is that we're hearing at re-invent is every company has to be a data company. Yep. Talk to me about with that in mind, are you talking to more chief data officers, chief digital officers, where are your customer conversations as we've we're in this explosion of data? >>It's a great question though. So if every company has to be a data company and a company that's powered by AI, that means you have to be talking to everyone really. So your chief data, chief chief information officers, chief data officers, CEO, CFOs, and every sort of head of business, head of line of business, it's really important. So what we do at peak is as a decision intelligence platform, peak itself, unifies everything you need in one cloud platform, into a single software product that gives you all the infrastructure for your technical teams to process data for your data scientists to create the intelligence, but then it gives you a place to work for your business teams. So unifies your whole business around a platform. And then that means our conversations. As you know, as the provider of that technology are with technical teams, they're with business teams, they're with business leaders because it has to permeate everything. So I think it's, I think that's the future companies will have to effectively run alongside they'll create their own intelligence, basically on a dedicated platform like peek. And that intelligence will then be distributed across the whole business, um, with w w you know, in the way we do it. So I think it's really cool and exciting. Yeah. >>Let let's say hypothetically, now this is something that would never happen, but just hypothetically say I'm an American goes to England to take over coaching, a British soccer, soccer, or football. Okay. I sounds crazy, but how would I, how would I use peak and Dai and BI to help improve my winning percentage if I cared about winning? Because it's possible that I would, I I'm really only interested in the personal development of my, of my team as individuals, but, but, but what would in athletics? Is that something that is a, >>I think possible? Yeah, for sure. I mean, you're seeing an explosion of data science and analytics and AI techniques being used in sport. Right. I mean, peak we're very much focused on the commercial application of AI with our platform. So we, we work with, uh, commercial businesses and so on, but in that space, yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, if you think about it, what do you need to create that intelligence? You need data and you can see it on the back of every players share. They've got the little devices that are gathering data in training in matches, constantly monitored. Those data points, feed algorithms. Those algorithms can show us if a player is fatigued, you know, where they are, or they can even show us, uh, deep learning techniques can help us see patterns of play and understand like how should we better set our teams up? How should we get players to interact in for, you know, on a soccer field? Um, and yeah, and you're seeing premier league clubs use those sort of techniques all the time. We don't do that at peak, but yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I think those sort of things are readily available now for, uh, those kinds of clubs to do that kind of stuff. >>I think Dave is angling to be a consultant on Ted last. So I think what I'm hearing last question for you, you guys are from an AWS relationship perspective. Richard, you guys were announced just yesterday, you're named by AWS as an ISB partner, APN partner of the year for 2021 for UK. And I, congratulations. Talk to us a little bit about that. >>Yeah, it was really, I kind of, yeah, it's super exciting for us. It's a great recognition. Obviously they give one of those awards out every year, uh, as a global company, it's nice to have that sort of stamp of approval that AWS sees us as their independent software vendor partner of the year. It's a, it's a great recognition for us because we come from a heritage of, uh, starting peak as a consulting company, actually just to do whatever it took to help our customers be successful. And in doing that, we had an idea for a software platform. Uh, we got some venture funding to do that, and we've turned into a, you know, we became a software company a couple of years after we founded, uh, and to get to this point now a few years later where AWS are recognizing us as their software vendor partner of the year is, um, a huge team. Fantastic. It's a huge Testament to, uh, to our engineering teams and the, and the, and the technical teams at peak that we've built something so impactful. Yeah, >>Absolutely. That validation is really, really critical. And last question in our last 30 seconds or so what are some of the things on the roadmap that you're excited for for, for peak for 20 22, 22 >>Is going to be a huge year for us. Cause I think it's the year that, uh, our platform goes out there into the wild, into the mainstream. So we made a couple of big announcements in the last few weeks. Uh, we've launched some new products on the pig platform. So there's three big platform, product sets. Now, one very much geared around creating your AI ready data set. That's called doc, uh, one that's very much geared around creating your intelligence, which is factory. And then an area where our business like the business teams of our customers go to work, which is called work actually. So those three big feature sets are going to be available from January. And the platform is being totally opened up as a self-serve platform for anyone anywhere to build upon. So I think it's a huge moment for decision intelligence. Garner is saying decision intelligence is the big tech trend of next year. And we feel as the market leader, we've got the platform that can help everyone get on, get on that trend really. So I think we're really looking forward to 2022 and what it brings. And, um, we think that our platform and our company is in a great shape to help more and more businesses take that leap into being powered by decision Intel. >>It sounds exciting, Richard, so we'll have to follow up with you next year and see what's going on. We appreciate you joining us on the cube, talking about peep, what you're doing, your relationship with AWS and how impactful decision intelligence can be for everybody. We appreciate it. Thanks for Dave Nicholson. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cube, the global leader in live tech coverage.

>>Welcome everybody to the cubes live coverage of AWS reinvent 2021. We're here in the main hall. Yes, this is a physical event. It's a hybrid event, probably the industry's most important hybrid event in the year. We're super excited to be here. Of course, last year during the lockdown, reinvent was purely virtual. This year. They go in hybrid 20 plus thousand people. I hear the whisper numbers like 25, 20 7,000 hundreds of thousands of people online. The cubes here, two sets, we've got two remote studios, super excited. I'd like to introduce my co-host David Nicholson. He'll be here all week with us. Uh, John furrier is also here, Lisa Martin for the cubes wall-to-wall coverage. And we're so psyched to start off this session with Kenneth Chestnut. Who's the head of technology partnerships at Stripe. Stripe's an amazing company, Ken. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks for having me, Dave and David. I greatly appreciate it. How about this? >>Right. Finally live event. We've done a few. We probably done four or five this year, but >>It's good to be back in person. It is. Yeah, absolutely. It's >>A Stripe. I mean, wow. Can a powering the new economy. Tell us a little bit more for those people who may not be familiar with Stripe. They probably use it without even knowing it when they sign it away. Yeah. So tell us about the >>Well, uh, Stripe was founded in 2010 by two brothers, Patrick and John Colson. And really it was from their first business and realizing how hard it was to actually charge for things on online. Um, you had to acquire a relationship with, uh, with a gateway provider to accept payments. You had to acquire a relationship with a, with a acquiring bank. Um, and you had to do that for each and every country that you wanted to service. Uh, so the same way that AWS reduced the barrier in terms of not having to procure, spend millions of dollars on storage, computers, networking, uh, effectively, what we we've done at Stripe is reduce the barriers around economic infrastructure, accepting payments online, >>Use that undifferentiated heavy lifting for payments. So describe Ken, what it was like kind of pre Stripe. You would literally have to install servers, get storage and put, put software on there, get a database. And then what if you had any money left over, you can actually do some business, but, but describe the sort of what the experience is like with Stripe. >>Sure. So, uh, the R R with, with Stripe, we literally talk about seven lines of code. So we, we allow any developer to, um, uh, provide a set of APIs for any developer to accept payments on online. And we do the undifferentiated heavy lifting in terms of accepting payments, accepting those payments, processing them revenue, reporting, and reconciliation, um, all ensuring compliance and security. Um, so it's like you said, uh, taking care of the undifferentiated heavy lifting are around accepting payments online in the enabling >>The enabler. There is the cloud. I mean, it was 2009, 2010. You guys were founded, the cloud was only like three years old. Right. And so you had to really sort of take a chance on leveraging the cloud or maybe early on you just installed it yourself and said, this isn't going to scale. So maybe tell us how you sort of leverage the cloud. >>Sure. Um, so we're a long time, uh, AWS, uh, customer and user, um, uh, back in the early days of, of Stripe in the early days of, of AWS. And we've just grown, uh, with, with AWS and the ecosystem. And it's interesting because a lot of, uh, a lot of the companies that have been built on, on AWS and grown to be successful, they're also Stripe customers as well. So they use Stripe for their economic infrastructure. >>We use Stripe, we run our company on AWS and we use Stripe. It it's true. The integration took like minutes. It was so simple. Hey it, test it, make sure it scales. But so what, what's the stack look like? What is there, is there such thing as a payment stack? What's the technology stuff? >>Sure. So we initially started with payments and being able to accept payments, uh, on online. Uh we've we brought in out our, our, our Stripe product portfolio now to effectively provide economic, uh, infrastructure for the internet. So that could be accepting payments. Uh, it could be setting up marketplaces. So companies like Lyft and Deliveroo, uh, use Stripe to power their marketplaces with their, with their drivers and, and, um, uh, delivers, um, uh, we provide, uh, a product called radar that, uh, that, um, prevents fraud, uh, around, around the globe. Um, based upon the data that we're seeing from our, from our customers, um, we have, uh, issuing and treasury so that companies can provide their users or their merchants with banking services. So loans, uh, issuing credit cards. So we we've really broadened out the product portfolio of Stripe to provide sort of economic infrastructure for the internet. So >>We talked about strike being in the cloud from an infrastructure perspective and how that enables certain things, but that in and of itself, doesn't change the dynamics around sovereignty and governance from country to country. Sure. Uh, I imagine that the global nature of AWS sort of dovetails with your strategy, but how, how do you address that? It's one thing to tell me in Northern California, you can process payments for me, but now globally go across 150 countries. How do you make that work? Yeah, >>Uh, absolutely. So we, we establish relationships, uh, within, within each company country that we operate in we're in about 47, uh, countries, uh, today, um, and that's rapidly expanding so that companies can, can process or accept payments and do, uh, financial transactions within, within, within those countries. So we're in 47 countries today. We, we accept a multitude of different payment, uh, different currencies, different payment types. So the U S is very, uh, credit card focused. But if you go to other, other parts of the globe, it could be a debit cards. It could be, um, uh, wallets, uh, uh, Google pay, Ali pay, uh, others. So really it's, uh, providing sort of the payment methods that users prefer in, in the different countries, uh, and meeting and meeting those users where, where they are. >>Are you out of the box compliant? What integration is required to do that? Uh, what about things like data sovereignty, is that taken care of by the cloud provider or you guys, and where, w w where does, where does AWS end and you guys pick up? Yes, >>We're, we're PCI compliant. Um, we, we leverage AWS as our, as our infrastructure, um, to grow, grow and scale. So, um, one of the things that we're, we're proud of is, uh, through, throughout 2020 and 2021, we've, we've had 11 nines of, uh, of, of, uh, or five nines of uptime, um, even through, um, uh, black Friday and cyber Monday. So providing AWS provides that, that infrastructure, which we built on top of to provide, uh, you know, five nines of uptime for our, for our users. >>You describe in more detail, Kenya, your ecosystem. I mean, you're responsible for tech partnerships. What does that ecosystem, how I paint a picture of it? >>Sure. So, um, uh, a number of users want to be able to use Stripe with, with their other, uh, it infrastructure and, and their business processes. So a customer may start, uh, with a salesperson may start with a quote or order, uh, in, in Salesforce, want to automate the invoicing and billing and payment of that with, with Stripe and then, uh, reconcile re revenue and an ERP solution like SAP or Oracle or NetSuite or into it, um, in the case of, of small, medium businesses. So really, um, what we're focused on is building out that, that ecosystem to allow, uh, um, our, our customers to streamline their business processes, um, and, and integrate Stripe into their existing it infrastructure and, and business processes. >>You mentioned a lot of different services, but broadly speaking, if I think about payments, correct me if I'm wrong, but you were one of the early, uh, sort of software companies, if I can call you that, um, platforms, whatever, but to really focus on a usage based pricing, but how do I, how do I engage with you? What's, what's the pricing model. Maybe you could describe that a little. >>Sure. So the pricing model is very, very transparent. Uh, it's on, it's on the website. So, uh, we, we take a, um, a percentage of each transaction. So literally you can, you can set up a, a Stripe account it's self-service, um, uh, we, we take a 2.9% plus 30 cents on every, uh, Tran transaction. Um, we don't, you don't start getting, um, uh, charged until, uh, you start accepting payments from your, from your customers or from your users. >>Um, can you give us a sense of the business scope, maybe any metrics you can share, customers, whatever. >>Sure. So there's a couple of things we can share publicly, just in terms of the size of the business. I think since, uh, since 2020, uh, more than 2 million businesses have launched on, on Stripe. Uh, so, uh, 2 million in, in, in, in 2020, um, we've, uh, uh, in the past 12 months, we've, uh, uh, uh, processed over 173 billion, uh, API calls. Uh, we do we process about, um, uh, hundreds of billions of, of, of, uh, payment volume, uh, every, every year. Um, if you look at sort of the macros of the business, the business is growing faster than the broader e-commerce space. So the amount of payment volume that we did in this past year is more than the entire industry did when Patrick and John founded the company. And in 2010, just to give you a, uh, an idea of the, the, the size of the business and sort of the pace of the business >>You're growing as e-commerce grows, but you're also stealing share from other sort of traditional payment systems. Okay. So that's a nice flywheel effect. And of course, Stripe's a private company they've raised well over a billion dollars of Peter teal, and it wasn't original founders, so are funders. So, you know, that's, he's talking scale. I want to go back to something you said about radar. Sure. So there's tech in your stack fraud detection, right. So some of >>That in machine learning, right. >>So, and so you guys, I mean, are you a technology company, are you a F a FinTech company? What are you? >>We're a software company. We provide software and we provide technology for developers, uh, to make online businesses and make, uh, uh, commerce, uh, more seamless and more frictionless >>Cloud-first API first. I mean, maybe describe how that is different maybe than, you know, the technical debt that's been built up over, you know, decades with traditional payment systems. >>Yes, it's very similar to the early, earlier days of AWS where a lot of tech forward companies leveraged Stripe, um, to, um, whether it be large enterprises to transform their businesses and move online, or, or, uh, uh, startups and developers that want to, uh, start a new business online and, and do that, uh, as quickly and seamlessly as possible. So it's, it's quite the gamut from large enterprises that are digitally transforming themselves companies like Marske and, and NASDAQ and others, as well as, uh, um, startups and developers that have started their businesses and born on born on Stripe. So >>When you talk about a startup, how small of an entity makes sense, uh, when you think of, if you look at, from an economic perspective, lowering the friction associated with transactions can lift up a large part of the world with sort of, you know, w with very, very small businesses. Is that something that this is all about? >>Yeah, absolutely. So, like I said, you know, two, 2 million business have sub launched on, on, on Stripe, uh, in, in the past year. And, and those businesses vary, but it could be literally a, a developer or a, uh, uh, a small, uh, SMB that wants to be able to accept payments on online. And it can just set up a Stripe account and start accepting payments. >>Yeah. So this is not a one hit wonder, um, lay out the vision for Stripe, right? I mean, you're, you're a platform, uh, you're, you're becoming a fundamental ingredient of the digital economy sounds pre pandemic. That was all a bunch of buzzwords, but today we all know how important that is, but what lay out the vision for us can, >>Yeah, it really are. The mission of Stripe is to grow the GDP of the internet. Um, and, and so what that means is, uh, more and more our, our, our basic belief is more and more and more businesses, uh, will, will, uh, go, go online, uh, with, uh, with the pandemic that that was, uh, accelerated. But I think that the general trend of businesses moving online, uh, will continue to accelerate, and we want to provide, uh, economic infrastructure to support those businesses. Um, you know, um, uh, uh, Andreessen talked about sort of software, software eating the world well fit. Our belief has FinTech is eating software. So in, in the fullness of time, I think the opportunity is for, uh, any, any company to be a financial services company. And we want to empower any company that wants to, or any user that wants to be a financial services company to, to provide the economic infrastructure for them to do so. >>And, and, you know, I mean your data company in that sense, you're moving bits around, you know, and those datas, I like to say data's eating software, you know, cause really you gotta have your data act together. Absolutely. And that's an evolving, I mean, you guys started to, to 2010, I would imagine your data strategy has evolved quite dramatically. Yeah. >>It's a great, it's a great call out Dave. Uh, one of our other products is a product called Sigma. So Sigma allows, uh, merchants or our customers to query payment and transaction data. So they want to be able to understand who, who, who are their customers, what are the payment methods that those customers prefer in different countries, in different regions? Um, so we're, we're starting to have some interesting use cases, um, working with, with AWS and other partners when you can start combining payment and transaction data in Stripe with other data to understand customer segmentation, customer 360 lifetime value of a customer customer acquisition costs, being able to close the books faster in your ERP, because you can apply that payment and transaction data to your general ledger to, to close the books faster at the end of the month or at the end of the, at the end of the year. So, uh, yeah, we we're, um, uh, as, as more and more companies are using Stripe, um, they want to be able to take advantage of that data and combine it with other, other sources of data to drive business. >>Yeah. You mentioned some of those key metrics that are, that are so important to companies today. I'll give you the last word re-invent this hall is packed, um, a little bit surprising, frankly, you know, but, uh, but exciting. Uh, what are you looking forward to this? >>Yeah, I'm just looking forward to meeting people in person again, it's, uh, it's great to be here and, and, you know, uh, uh, we have a strong relationship with AWS. We have lots of partners in, in, in common here, uh, as well, both consulting partners and technology partners. So really looking forward to meeting with partners and customers, and especially as we, as we plan for next year and, uh, launching our, our, our partner program beginning of next year. Uh, there's a lot of, uh, uh, groundwork and things to learn from, from here. As we, as we, we, we, we launch our, our, our partner business formula next >>I'll bet. Looking forward to that, Ken, thanks so much for coming to the cure. You so much. It was great to have a chat at the time. All right. And we want to thank our sponsors, uh, AWS, of course, and also AMD who's making the editorial segments that we bring you this week possible for Dave Nicholson. I'm Dave Volante. You're watching the cube at AWS reinvent 2021. Keep it right there, right back.

>>Oh, well, the back to the cubes coverage of ADA bus reinvent, 2021 executive seminar, I'm John ferry hosts of the cube. We've got a great segment here on the modernization. We were ringing in the success with Amazon web services, Vodafone digital in the UK, an example of modern engineering examples using Amazon, the cloud, looking at where we're cloud native is actually changing the game two great guests, Ben Collie, head, head of digital engineering, Vodafone UK, and Maynard Williams, managing director of center. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on the cube and sharing the story. >>Thanks, John. Appreciate it. So >>I gotta, I gotta ask you guys one of the main themes that we've been covering all year and even even pre pandemic, we, we saw the cloud native wave coming pretty hard containers. Great for modernization sets the table. You seeing things like Kubernetes and now serverless changing the game on all aspects of how modernization is happening. And everyone's talking about application modernization shift left all great for business, but you have to, you have to kind of take care of things under the, under the covers a little bit, the infrastructure, making sure the engineering teams are all set. So this has been a top topic. This is kind of what you guys are doing. Can you guys explain to me the needs that Vodafone has, um, that brought about this transformation? >>Yeah, sure. Um, so we we've been on this transformation for around four years, but you're absolutely right. The, uh, the pandemic has been a real catalyst for, for all kinds of organizations like ours around the world. Uh, so we were really driving a digital first agenda for quite a long time. Uh, and that, that came as, as you just said, John, it, it really did start with the, uh, the cloud hosted, uh, and then, uh, and then moving and realizing the difference between that and become native to the, to the cloud and really leveraging the services, uh, like AWS, um, in order to really drive pace, uh, and, and the outcomes that we needed for the business. Uh, we've seen a huge change over the last, uh, purely over the last 18 months, really. Um, our daily traffic, uh, these days is as it was on our highest ever, uh, uh, like an iPhone launch day, for example, um, before the pandemic, is I a daily traffic these days. And so that scalability and flexibility and that leveraging those services has been absolutely fundamental to supporting the, the changing needs and expectations of our customers. >>You know, back in the old days, uh, Maynard, you know, it's oh yeah, black Friday surge, you need the cloud to scale up and be flexible. Agile elastic, you know, scale is definitely now table stakes. And if you're not dealing with scale and some sort of either SRE fashion or whatever, you, you really ain't going to be behind the curve, but the next level that's being discussed is how do you leverage the scale for not just customer experience and business value, but we're talking about system architecture, kind of thinking there's kind of, this is our system design is now a big part of it. Can you talk about how this kind of threads together? Because we always talk about consumer experience, customer experience CX, but now there's a new system was mindset out there. Can you kind of share your vision on that >>Thing that stands out for me is if I look at digital, we've designed it to a point where the scale is just as you say, it's the table stakes, and only for launch with something that two years ago needed to be planned and thought about. And it's now absolutely routine. We think about the business side of it, but a big increase in scale really is seamless. But if I look at the full stack, we're still connected into some of the older backend systems, um, where any production, uh, they were on prime actually tasks. This is on AWS now, which is a big step forward, but when you've got to manage scaling in a way that translates from backend systems that are on premises on prime, and therefore we can't lastingly scale through to the front tab where we have to be able to scale up very seamlessly and balancing that across with, uh, an architecture that supports that level of scale and makes it so seamless on something like, as you say, iPhone launches or back Friday, any product coming out is actually key to the way we've architected that. >>So you're saying that essentially AWS combined with Vodafone worked on this solution that was more of a cloud native solutions that the innovation here, can you just summarize and unpack a little bit of what is the innovation, what problems did you solve together with essentially those and Vodafone? What was the core challenge? Yes. >>I think that the core is actually, how do you get to the point where, um, at the scaling is seamless, where you can move from being on the cloud to cloud native has been, just touched on what the same time you're actually connected into an enterprise state where the production systems are all on prem and don't have that ability to scale in the same fraction. So you can't, for example, push you to load into, uh, an on-prem backend system and, and simply expected to scale in the same fashion. So between our three organizations architecting something that is robust scales, we usable and takes away a load of pieces that actually were quite complex two years ago. And turns them into just routine has been a big step forward. >>And I want to get your reaction to this because, you know, you're, you're the you're on the, on the front line saying, Hey, be more agile at Basel saying, be agile, do different left, take that hill. Um, it's, it's easier said than done. Talk about what goes on when you have to implement and the stakes involved. Again, there's always the old way, new way. Can you just kind of give some color on what's going on? What's your perspective showing? >>And as I just said, that the real benefits and the story behind this was the ability to launch an iPhone. For example, as a event for Vodafone previously was weeks and months of preparation and design and testing and confidence building. And now it really is, it just happens. Uh, and we watched things scale and, and, and then down again, gracefully, um, and really do celebrate the, the another level up, if you like the leveling up of us as an organization, allowing our commercial colleagues to, to launch propositions or to launch campaigns without needing us to be involved anymore, because they're confident, we're all that things will, will flex like that. But you're absolutely right, that, that the changes and the demands of us as a, as a team, but also the, the expectations of our stakeholders, uh, have been changing for quite a long time now. Uh, and we're really excited now to be able to meet them by leveraging the services that we're discussing. >>Yeah. So the guys say said launched the iPhone, no big deal routine, hit the pub. Everyone's happy having a good day. >>Uh, >>Let's get into the solution, how it works. Talk about what's going on with the covers. How does this all work? Can you take us through, what's the state of the art of the, of the solution? Sure. >>Well, uh, as you mentioned earlier, we were very much inclined to serverless these days. So we rolled out fire gate, um, a few, uh, uh, started about 18 months ago. Um, and that really has, um, freed us up in, into all kinds of, um, uh, scalability, uh, measures, but also really about, about reusing and applying this across much more than just the, the engineering or the digital part of Vodafone, where we, where we began. So that's been a really big part of our agenda, uh, and that's, that's informed all kinds of things, the ability to scale and flex like that, and the architecture beneath us, um, and the containerization and orchestration that that goes along with that has really enabled us to, um, to flex that, uh, ability to, to reuse it across other areas. And because of that, now it's driven our hiring policy or tooling and, uh, technical, uh, our procedural approaches, uh, it all now leverages that ability to move a patient, to be able to scale, uh, not just in, um, uh, infrastructure or ability to serve customers, but in ability to deliver for the business commercially as well. Uh, and this is all now informed on our direction. I think, as an organization, >>It's interesting, you mentioned far you far gate than a trigger of events happens. People get excited, opens up new doors of opportunities as a chain reaction from that. Um, talk about the impact to the staff and the operations, because you almost, it's motivating at some level you get new things happening, but you're actually making things go better and faster, cheaper. >>Yeah. Uh, well, the, the impact is one, uh, because we're on a journey at Vodafone of this transformation, really becoming a technology business first and foremost, rather than a telco classically like our competitors, uh, we're able to really drive cultural change as well. So the impact on our people is a really, it's been particularly engaging. One with, we've also been part of, uh, a real recruitment drive. We've just announced 7,000 new, uh, roles, uh, joining our team across Europe and that these are engineering roles, um, driving more of the same, uh, behaviors and principles of a modern software engineering business like ours. Uh, and that really is fueled by our, our ability to experiment and try, but become cloud native and, and, uh, employ these services in the way that they're designed to be >>Maynard. I'd like to get your take on this and, and, and shift to a topic around how, what this all means. Um, if you zoom out and you say, okay, with the pandemic, it's become a mobile virtual hybrid. Now world around work play, all those lines are kind of blurring. It's not as clean as it used to be. Oh, the network segmented over here. This is over here. These legacy systems were built around the notion of things when nicely segmented. Um, now you have this whole kind of mashup, if you will, of how you just want to work, right. There's mobilization is a huge thing. So access identity, these are things that we're all kind of set up nicely before the pandemic, or at least, you know, not as, uh, stable, maybe not scalable, but what's your take on this? What's the big picture what's all happening. >>I think, I mean, the pandemic has accelerated a set of changes that were already happening anyway. And I'd say the other particles is under the covers. A lot of the work's been done has been to create the microservices that stitch together to produce those journeys, but, you know, running the containers. And so that, that opens up an omni-channel future that starts to move away from saying actually businesses are organized around the environment in which they're serving. Is it a retail store? Is it, is it online that additional and so on, and actually into much more of a space where you're building the best journeys and those journeys come and are served through digital or through a call center or through a store and so on. And that makes a huge difference because the focus on improving the customer's experience has been enormous. And I think that's one of the other parts that come out of the whole cloud native setup. >>And the ability to experiment has been iteratively and endlessly improving the experience for the customer. And that's, that's a, that's a massive step forward. So we can talk about the fact that we deploy a huge number of times more frequently than we did even a year ago, uh, or the, you know, our quality has improved by a massive percentage and so on. And I think the thing that's really interesting is the improvement in the experience and the endless improvement and iteration of that, because we can make lots and lots of small changes and do every day. That's a big one, >>You know, what's interesting Ben, and let's get your reaction on this. And if you don't mind to just add a little color to this, this is just another example of reports that we've been talking with folks on where it's not about just replatforming to the cloud. It's refactoring the business, uh, with, with the engineering, the modernization. And so there's two things that go on one, you see the efficiencies and new doors open up new things are happening. People are getting excited, good, some good Mo morale boosting things are becoming clear, but then there's actually new business, new business value being created or new propositions engineering propositions. Can you share from a digital standpoint, because this seems to be the new role of the digital person, whether it's engineering or on the business side, make things run faster, cheaper, and better, and then create new opportunities, new propositions, what's your >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It's fundamentally around pace of delivery. Uh, being able to, as, as may not says, uh, moving from a world, uh, two or three years ago where we were deploying once every two or three months, uh, this is a website once every two or three months where we were, uh, to now it's happening all the time every day. Uh, it's, it's, it's a skill that we've given us as an organization that we couldn't have leveraged before. And what we're able to do with that now is experiment our way and iterate our way to new value streams, as you say, but also trial and error. What we already know, uh, or expects to be true with our customers much, much more easily and much, much more frequently, very little a barrier to production or friction between us and the customer these days, and the almost instant response and feedback we get from customers. Um, we, we learn constantly about because of that. And it's, uh, it's become much less of a stab in the dark with large business cases where they work well, they worked and are much more experimental initiative. Uh, we, most of the propositions we know about, but also to the experiments, um, and unknowns in our future. Um, that also now unlocked, >>That's a great point. You mentioned about the whole timing of, you know, the old way, months, weeks, just for website stuff, uh, Maynard. And if you guys can share this new world order is actually pretty exciting, but also daunting if you're not like in the water, so to speak, right? So, you know, some people are actually, you know, putting their toe in the water, they're experimenting, but it's a game changer. I mean, a significant step up of value. What's your advice about solutions and they're not easy. I mean, you just got to get your hands around the sensor. You guys have been doing a lot more of these projects is seeing more and more of these, these kinds of partnerships, uh, and the value is there. Can you guys share your, your, uh, opinion and advice to folks out there watching saying, how do I do this and is it going to be worth it? Is that bridge to the future there? >>I mean, I think there's a mechanical piece. How do I enable this? And we can talk about dev ops and moving to cloud native, and actually some of the, some of the process side of as an organization, how do I get really comfortable with deploying very frequently and it being low risk and routine. And so the other part for me, which we sort of haven't touched on is as much as we talk about experimentation, it's about the data and the analytics and the knowledge that we create of that. So the, the, the small changes we're making are highly scientific. And when we think about actually understanding how we're optimizing experiences, that's all about the whole set of data points that I'm pinning up. And so I'll take two parts is know the, the journey we've been on here is, is about enablement. It's about moving the architecture. It's about moving the ways of working so that a lot of things that were hard or required thinking about two years ago on that quality team. But the other part of it is understanding the data and having the analytics capability and being able to make a very scientific experiment where you can see the result in the day-to-day >>Ben, what's your reaction advice to folks watching as they modernize exciting, challenging. It's a lot of hard work, but what's it look, it's the end game, >>All of those things, yes. I'd say it's, um, more than anything, it's a necessity these days we have to embark on this journey. It is, it is daunting. And, and of course, a lot of large organizations like ours, we were successful for doing things in a particular way, uh, have built up a lot of, uh, protection mechanisms for doing, for making sure we protect that. And so to come at it from a new angle is, is obviously daunting. And it's very challenging as well. There is an immune system in all of our organizations that is real, but I'll deal with it. Um, but the, the real, um, success behind, uh, the real, I think the reasons behind a lot of our success has been beat by being able to quickly prove value to quickly prove that outcomes are deliverable and achievable. Um, and then to build on those and iterate on it. And as, as I said, it's, it's about being able to move at pace for us in Vodafone. It's about leveraging our scale. We're a huge organization. Um, and we're, we're now coming together as one to really make sure that we do just lean on that scale more than we have them. Yeah, that's really about iterating, as I said, and, and, um, finding things that work, keep doing it, finding things that hold you back and get rid of them as quickly as you can, uh, is what I would say for us. >>It's interesting. You mentioned the scale. The thing about the cloud is when I hear the common pattern is it takes advantage of the strengths of your environment. You know, so every environment is a bit different, but you guys have the scale. I have to ask you while you're here. What are some of the anecdotal comments that kind of, you hear from folks that make you happy? When about the results? I think saying, Hey man, I'm not even seeing this anymore, or, wow. This is faster. What's some of the sound bites that you guys take as proof points of the success of this project. >>Yeah. It's, uh, I'd say it's mainly an R there's two things I would say, uh, the ability to rely less on it delivery if you like. So empowering our commercial business to make changes for themselves in a safe and secure manner. So providing these self-service capabilities, we've started to see a real pace about our commercial business, as well as our technology business. Uh, but also the, the time it takes to get things out is probably one of the biggest, uh, really tangible results and outcomes for us at the moment. Um, just the sheer amount of things we can release to production, uh, in, in sorts of short space, space of time really does bring to life, our ability to now trial and error, to AB test a Canary deploy. Things like that is really, um, it's been a real superpower for our, um, transformation, I think yes. >>Kind of kidding about can't make time to go to the pub, but in reality, it's free time freeing up people from doing those tasks that were slower shifting that value. >>Yeah. Whereas as you mentioned, Johnny, it really is much more than a technical journey. This is a cultural one as well for a lot of organizations and, um, by being more connected, by being more connected to the outcomes or the value that you add into production, uh, it really does drive a new culture and engagement across our teams. You know, if it's six months between writing a line of code and seeing it in production by up no sense of ownership or pride in what I've done there, but if I can deploy code immediately see an impact good or bad, um, then, uh, I really do feel connected to the outcomes and the value that I'm driving to, to the business and to our customers. So there really is a great cultural, >>Yeah. I remember Andy Jassy last year when he was a sea of AWS on stage and talked about that dynamic of the teamwork, people rowing in the right direction. Um, feeling part of it may know this is a cultural shift on how companies do business. I know center I've covered probably a dozen or so killer projects that have just been awesomely new and kind of different, but successful built on the cloud. So a lot of replatforming refactoring you're in the front lines, working with, uh, companies that essentially what's the pattern that you see that's that's happening right now. What's the, what's your view of the current market? >>Um, I mean, I think there's a huge shift to this, that this journey too has been part of the move from being on the cloud to being proud nature. I'm really getting that value because there's a, um, a kind of, almost a example. I see there's a light bulb moment where ownership of what you put in production means that you move away from a model of we change code because either the business tell us too, because they have a functional requirement or because something's broken. When we get into the model of that, I want to improve the thing that I feel ownership of. That's not leave. And you suddenly see how much difference that makes to the experience of it, the quality of it, the stability, all of those things improving. And so if, if I look more generally that cultural shift is it is an evolution that organizations go through and it starts with actually delivering it in a more agile way. At some large scale, you see agility moving up into kind of business agility and starting to affect things like budgeting cycles and the kind of corporate functions. If you like that tend to sit around, uh, you know, supporting Pete pieces of delivery. And there's a lot more of that happening at the moment, a load with more organizations pushing into being properly cloud native and transforming rather than the kind of first wave, which was the shift onto the cloud. Now it's actually, that's really leveraged what we've got with the, >>Yeah. And you guys essentially have been riding on the wave of AWS and the cloud for many, many years. We've been covering it. Ben great success story. Thanks for coming on the cube, a head of digital engineering, Vodafone UK, great example of modern engineering at work using AWS in Europe. Uh, thanks for coming on the Cuban, sharing your story. Maynor thank you for also coming on and the work you're doing at Accenture and AWS. Thank you. Thanks John. The cube coverage of AWS reinvent 2021 executive summit. I'm John furry, your host. Thanks for watching.

>>Hi, Brian, this is Dave Volante. Welcome to this cube conversation with Thomas Hazel was the founder and CTO of chaos surgeon. I'm also joined by ed Walsh. Who's the CEO Thomas. Good to see you. >>Great to be here. >>Explain Jason. First of all, what >>Jason, Jason has a powerful data representation, a data source. Uh, but let's just say that we try to drive value out of it. It gets complicated. Uh, I can search. We activate customers, data lakes. So, you know, customers stream their Jason data to this, uh, cloud stores that we activate. Now, the trick is the complexity of a Jason data structure. You can do all these complexity of representation. Now here's the problem putting that representation into a elastic search database or relational databases, very problematic. So what people choose to do is they pick and choose what they want and or they just stored as a blob. And so I said, what if, what if we create a new index technology that could store it as a full representation, but dynamically in a, we call our data refinery published access to all the permutations that you may want, where if you do a full on flatten, your flattening of its Jason, one row theoretically could be put into a million rows and relational data sort of explode, >>But then it gets really expensive. But so, but everybody says they have Jason support, every database vendor that I talked to, it's a big announcement. We now support Jason. What's the deal. >>Exactly. So you take your relational database with all those relational constructs and you have a proprietary Jason API to pick and choose. So instead of picking, choosing upfront, now you're picking, choosing in the backend where you really want us the power of the relational analysis of that Jaison data. And that's where chaos comes in, where we expand those data streams we do in a relational way. So all that tooling you've been built to know and love. Now you can access to it. So if you're doing proprietary APIs or Jason data, you're not using Looker, you're not using Tableau. You're doing some type of proprietary, probably emailing now on the backend. >>Okay. So you say all the tools that you've trained, everybody on you can't really use them. You got to build some custom stuff and okay, so, so, so maybe bring that home then in terms of what what's the money, why do the suits care about this stuff? >>The reason this is so important is think about anything, cloud native Kubernetes, your different applications. What you're doing in Mongo is all Jason is it's very powerful but painful, but if you're not keeping the data, what people are doing a data scientist is, or they're just doing leveling, they're saying I'm going to only keep the first four things. So think about it's Kubernetes, it's your app logs. They're trying to figure out for black Friday, what happens? It's Lilly saying, Hey, every minute they'll cut a new log. You're able to say, listen, these are the users that were in that system for an hour. And here's a different things. They do. The fact of the matter is if you cut it off, you lose all that fidelity, all that data. So it's really important that to have. So if you're trying to figure out either what happened for security, what happened for on a performance, or if you're trying to figure out, Hey, I'm VP of product or growth, how do I cross sell things? >>You need to know what everyone's doing. If you're not handling Jason natively, like we're doing either your, it keeps on expanding on black Friday. All of a sudden the logs get huge. And the next day it's not, but it's really powerful data that you need to harness for business values. It's, what's going to drive growth. It's what's going to do the digital transformation. So without the technology, you're kind of blind. And to be honest, you don't know. Cause a data scientist is kind of deleted the data on you. So this is big for the business and digital transformation, but also it was such a pain. The data scientists in DBS were forced to just basically make it simple. So it didn't blow up their system. We allow them to keep it simple, but yes, >>Both power. It reminds me if you like, go on vacation, you got your video camera. Somebody breaks into your house. You go back to Lucas and see who and that the data's gone. The video's gone because it didn't, you didn't, you weren't able to save it cause it's too >>Expensive. Well, it's funny. This is the first day source. That's driving the design of the database because of all the value we should be designed the database around the information. It stores not the structure and how it's been organized. And so our viewpoint is you get to choose your structure yet contain all that content. So if a vendor >>It says to kind of, I'm a customer then says, Hey, we got Jason support. What questions should I ask to really peel the onion? >>Well, particularly relational. Is it a relational access to that data? Now you could say, oh, I've ETL does Jason into it. But chances are the explosion of Jason permutations of one row to a million. They're probably not doing the full representation. So from our viewpoint is either you're doing a blob type access to proprietary Jason APIs or you're picking and choosing those, the choices say that is the market thought. However, what if you could take all the vegetation and design your schema based on how you want to consume it versus how you could store it. And that's a big difference with, >>So I should be asking how, how do I consume this data? Are you ETL? Bring it in how much data explosion is going to occur. Once I do this, and you're saying for chaos, search the answer to those questions. >>The answer is, again, our philosophy simply stream your data into your cloud object, storage, your data lake and with our index technology and our data refinery. You get to create views, dynamic the incident, whether it's a terabyte or petabyte, and describe how you want your data because consumed in a relational way or an elastic search way, both are consumable through our data refinery, which is >>For us. The refinery gives you the view. So what happens if someone wants a different view, I want to actually unpack different columns or different matrices. You able to do that in a virtual view, it's available immediately over petabytes of data. You don't have that episode where you come back, look at the video camera. There's no data there left. So that's, >>We do appreciate the time and the explanation on really understanding Jason. Thank you. All right. And thank you for watching this cube conversation. This is Dave Volante. We'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) >> Hello, welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of AWS Reinvent 2021 Executive Summit. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We've got a great segment here on the modernization, where we're ringing in the success with Amazon Web Services and Vodafone Digital in the UK. An example of modern engineering, examples using Amazon, the cloud. Looking at where cloud-native is actually changing the game. We got two great guests, Ben Connolly, Head of Digital Engineering at Vodafone UK, and Maynard Williams, Managing Director of Accenture. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on theCUBE and sharing the story. >> Thanks John, appreciate the invite. >> So I got to ask you guys, one of the main themes that we've been covering all year, and even pre-pandemic, we saw the cloud-native wave coming pretty hard. Containers, great for modernization, sets the table. You seeing things like Kubernetes, and now Serverless changing the game on all aspects of how modernization is happening. And everyone's talking about application modernization, shift left, all great for business, but you have to kind of take care of things under the covers a little bit. The infrastructure, making sure the engineering teams are all set. So this has been a top topic. This is kind of what you guys are doing. Can you guys explain to me the needs that Vodafone has that brought about this transformation? >> Yeah, sure. So we we've been on this transformation program for years, but you're absolutely right. The pandemic has been a real catalyst for all kinds of organizations like ours around the world. So we were really driving digital first agenda for quite a long time. And that that came as you just said John, it really did start with the cloud hosted and then moving and realizing the difference between that and become native to the cloud and really leveraging the services like AWS in order to really drive pace and the outcomes that we needed for the business. We've seen a huge change purely over the last 18 months really. Our daily traffic these days is as it was on our highest ever like an iPhone launch day, for example, before the pandemic is daily traffic these days. And so that scalability and flexibility and that leveraging those services has been absolutely fundamental to supporting the changing needs and expectations of our customers. >> You know, back in the old days, Maynard oh yeah, Black Friday surge, you need the cloud to scale up and be flexible, agile, elastic. The scale is definitely now table stakes. And if you're not dealing with scale and some sort of either SRE fashion or whatever, you're really going to be behind the curve. But the next level that's being discussed is how do you leverage the scale for not just customer experience and business value but we're talking about system architecture, kind of thinking there's going to, this is our system design is now a big part of it. Can you talk about how this kind of threads together? Because we always talk about consumer experience, customer experience CX, but now there's a new systems mindset out there. Can you kind of share your vision on that. >> Yeah, I think the thing that stands out for me is if I look at digital, we've designed it to a point where the scale is just as you say, it's the table stakes. And iPhone launch was something that two years ago needed to be planned and thought about. And it's now absolutely routine. We think about the business side of it but a big increase in scale really is seamless. But if I look at the full stack, we're still connected into some of the older backend systems where we're in production they're on prime actually tests is on AWS now, which is a big step forward, but when you've got to manage scaling in a way that translates from backend systems that are on-premises or on-prem, and therefore we can't elastically scale through to the front tab where we have to be able to scale up very seamlessly and balancing that across with an architecture that supports that level of scale and makes it so seamless on something like, as you say, iPhone launches or Black Friday or any product coming out is actually key to the way we've architected that. >> So you saying that essentially AWS combined with Vodafone worked on this solution that was more of a cloud native solutions. Is that the innovation? Can you just summarize and unpack a little bit, what is the innovation? What problems did you solve together with Accenture and Vodafone? What was the core challenge? >> Yes well, I think that the core is actually, how do you get to the point where the scaling is seamless, where you can move from being on the cloud to cloud native, as Ben just touched on, when at the same time you're actually connected into an enterprise state where the production systems are all on-prem and don't have that ability to scale in the same fashion. So you can't, for example, push you to load into an on-prem backend system and simply expected to scale in the same fashion. So between our three organizations, architecting something that is robust scales, reusable and takes away a load of pieces that actually were quite complex two years ago and turns them into just routine has been a big step forward. >> And I want to get your reaction to this because you're on the front line saying, hey, be more agile, the boss that says, be agile, do different left, take that hill. It's easier said than done. Talk about what goes on when you have to implement and the stakes involved. Again, there's always the old way, new way. Could you just kind of give some color on what's going on? What's your perspective? >> Sure, and Maynard just said that the real benefits and the story behind this was the ability to launch an iPhone For example, as a non event for Vodafone previously was weeks and months of preparation and design and testing and confidence building. And now it really is, it just happens. And we watched things scale and then down again gracefully and really do celebrate the level up if you like, the leveling up of us as an organization, allowing our commercial colleagues to launch propositions or to launch campaigns without needing us to be involved anymore, because they're confident, we're all confident that things will flex like that. But you're absolutely right that the changes and the demands of us as a team, but also the expectations of our stakeholders have been changing for quite a long time now. And we're really excited now to be able to meet them by leveraging the services that we're discussing it. >> Yeah, so the guy said launched the iPhone, no big deal routine, hit the pub, everyone's happy. Having a good day. Let's get into the solution, how it works. Talk about what's going on under the covers. How does this all work? Can you take us through what's the state of the art of the of the solution? >> Sure. Well as you mentioned earlier, we were very much inclined to Serverless these days. So we rolled out fire gate a few, it started about 18 months ago and that really has freed us up into all kinds of scalability measures but also really about reusing and applying this across much more than just the engineering or the digital part of Vodafone where we began. So that's been a really big part of our agenda and that's informed all kinds of things. The ability to scale and flex like that and the architecture beneath us and the containerization and orchestration that goes along with that has really enabled us to flex that ability to reuse it across other areas. And because of that now it's driven our hiring policy, our tooling and technical, our procedural approaches, and it all now leverages that ability to move a pace and to be able to scale, not just in infrastructure or ability to serve customers, but in ability to deliver for the business commercially as well. And this is all now informed on our direction I think, as an organization. >> It's interesting, you mentioned you far gate then a trigger of events happens. People get excited, opens up new doors of opportunities, there's a chain reaction from that. Talk about the impact to the staff in the operations because you almost it's motivating. At some level, you got new things happening but you're actually making things go better and faster, cheaper. >> Yeah, well, the impact is one because we're on a journey at Vodafone of this transformation really becoming a technology business first and foremost, rather than a telco classically like our competitors. We're able to really drive cultural change as well. So the impact on our people is a really, it's been a particularly engaging one, we've also been part of a real recruitment drive. We've just announced 7,000 new roles joining our team across Europe. And these are engineering roles driving more of the same behaviors and principles of a modern software engineering business like ours. And that really is fueled by our ability to experiment and try but become cloud native and employ these services in the way that they're designed to be. >> Maynard, I'd like to get your take on this and shift to a topic around what this all means. You zoom out and you say, okay, with the pandemic, it's become a mobile virtual hybrid now world around work play, all those lines are kind of blurring. It's not as clean as it used to be. Oh, the network segmented over here, this is over here, these legacy systems were built around the notion of things were nicely segmented. Now you have this whole kind of mashup if you will, of how you just want to work, right? There's mobilization is a huge thing. So access, identity, these are things that we're all kind of set up nicely before the pandemic, or at least not as a stable maybe not scalable. But what's your take on this? What's the big picture? What's all happening? >> I think, I mean, the pandemic has accelerated a set of changes that were already happening anyway. And I'd say the other part of this is under the covers. A lot of the work has been to create the microservices that stitch together to produce those journeys that run in the containers and so that opens up an Omni-channel feature that starts to move away from saying actually, businesses are organized around the environment in which they're serving. Is it a retail store? Is it online, additional and so on? And actually into much more of a space where you're building the best journeys and those journeys can and are served through digital or through a call center or through a store and so on. And that makes a huge difference because the focus on improving the customer's experience has been enormous. And I think that's one of the other parts that come out of the whole cloud native setup and the ability to experiment has been intuitively and endlessly improving the experience for the customer. And that's a massive step forward. So we can talk about the fact that we deploy a huge number of times more frequently than we did even a year ago or that our quality is improved by a massive percentage and so on. And I think the thing that's really interesting is the improvement in the experience and the endless improvement and iteration of that because we can make lots and lots of small changes and do every day. That's a big step forward. >> You know, what's interesting, Ben and let's get your reaction on this and if you don't mind to just add a little color to this. This is just another example of reports that we've been talking with folks on where it's not about just re-platforming to the cloud. It's refactoring the business with the engineering, the modernization. And so there's two things that go on. One, you see the efficiencies, new doors open up, new things are happening, people are getting excited, get some good morale boost, things are becoming clear, but then this actually new business value being created or new propositions, engineering propositions. Can you share from a digital standpoint because this seems to be the new role of the digital person, whether it's engineering or on the business side, make things run faster, cheaper and better and then create new opportunities, new propositions. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, it's fundamentally around pace of delivery. Being able to, as Maynard says, moving from a world two or three years ago where we were deploying once every two or three months. This is a website once every two or three months, it's where we were. And so now it's happening all the time every day. It's a skill that we've given us as an organization that we couldn't have leveraged before. And what we're able to do with that now is experiment our way and iterate our way to new value streams, as you say, but also to trial and error what we already know or expect to be true with our customers much, much more easily and much, much more frequently. Very little a barrier to production or friction between us and the customer these days and the almost instant response and feedback we get from customers, we learn constantly because of that and it's become much less of a stab in the dark with large business cases where they work well, they work to now much more experimental initiative. That way both to the propositions we know about but also to the experiments and unknowns in our future that also now unlocked for us. >> That's a great point you mentioned about the whole timing of, the old way, months, weeks, just for website stuff. Maynard, if you guys can share this new world order is actually pretty exciting but also daunting if you're not like in the water, so to speak. So some people are actually putting their toe in the water, they're experimenting but it's a game changer. I mean, a significant step up of value. What's your advice about solutions? And they're not easy. I mean, you just got to get your hands around Accenture. You guys have been doing a lot more of these projects and seeing more and more of these kinds of partnerships and the value is there. Can you guys share your opinion and advice to folks out there watching saying, how do I do this and is it going to be worth it? Is that bridge to the future there? >> I mean, I think there's a mechanical piece. How do I enable this? We could talk about DevOps and moving to cloud native and actually some of the process side of as an organization, how do I get really comfortable with deploying very frequently and it being low risk and routine and so on. The other part for me, which we sort of haven't touched on is as much as we talk about experimentation, it's about the data and the analytics and the knowledge that we create out of that. So the small changes we're making are highly scientific. And when we think about actually understanding how we're optimizing experiences, that's all about a whole set of data points that underpin it. And so I'd say two parts. It's the journey we've been on here is about enablement. It's about moving the architecture. It's about moving the ways of working so that a lot of things that were hard or required thinking about two years ago on that are routine but the other part of it is understanding the data and having the analytics capability and being able to make a very scientific experiment where you can see the result in the day to day. >> Ben, what's your reaction advice to folks watching as they modernize exciting, challenging. It's a lot of hard work, but what is its the end game? >> All of those things, yes. I'd say it's more than anything, it's a necessity these days we have to embark on this journey and it is daunting. And of course, a lot of large organizations like ours, we were successful for doing things in a particular way and built up a lot of protection mechanisms for making sure we protect that. And so to come at it from a new angle is obviously daunting. And it's very challenging as well. There is an immune system in all of our organizations it is real and we will all deal with it. But the success behind, I think the real reasons behind a lot of our success has been by being able to quickly prove value, to quickly prove that outcomes are deliverable and achievable. And then to build on those and iterate on it. And as I said, it's about being able to move at pace. For us in Vodafone it's about leveraging our scale. We're a huge organization, and we're now coming together as one to really make sure that we do lean on that scale more than we have them. We're really about iterating, as I said and finding things that work, keep doing it, finding things that hold you back and get rid of them as quickly as you can is what I would say for us. >> It's interesting you mentioned the scale. The thing about the cloud is when I hear the common pattern is it takes advantage of the strengths of your environment. So every environment's a bit different but you guys have the scale. I have to ask you while you're here. What are some of the anecdotal comments that kind of you hear from folks that make you happy, what about the results? I think saying, hey man, I'm not even seeing this anymore or wow this is faster. What's some of the sound bites that you guys take as proof points of the success of this project. >> Yeah, I'd say it's mainly there's two things I would say, the ability to rely less on IT delivery if you like. So empowering our commercial business to make changes for themselves in a safe and secure manner. So providing these self-service capabilities, we've started to see a real pace about our commercial business, as well as our technology business. But also the time it takes to get things out is probably one of the biggest, really tangible results and outcomes for us at the moment. Just the sheer amount of things we can release to production in sorts of short space of time really does bring to life our ability to now trial and error, to AB test Canary deploy, things like that is really, it's been a real superpower for our transformation. >> Yeah, kind of kidding about having time to go to the pub but in reality, it's free time freeing up people from doing those tasks that were slower and shifting that value. >> Yeah, as you mentioned John, it really is much more than a technical journey. This is a cultural one as well for a lot of organizations. And by being more connected to the outcomes or the value that you add into production, it really does drive a new culture and engagement across our teams. If it's six months between rising line of code and seeing it in production, I have no sense of ownership or pride in what I've done there, but if I can deploy code immediately see an impact good or bad, then I really do feel connected to the outcomes and the value that I'm driving to the business and to our customers. So there really is a great cultural journey as well. >> Yeah, I remember Andy Jassy last year when he was the CEO of AWS on the stage and talked about that dynamic of the team where people run in the right direction, feeling part of it. Maynard, this is a cultural shift on how companies do business. I know Accenture have covered probably a dozen or so killer projects that have just been awesomely new and kind of different but a successful built on the cloud. So a lot of re-platforming refactoring. You're in the front lines working with companies at Accenture. What's the pattern that you see that's happening right now? What's your view of the current market? >> I mean, I think there's a huge shift in this journey too has bankrupted the move from being on the cloud to being cloud native. I'm really getting that value because there's a kind of almost example I see, there's a light bulb moment where ownership of what you put in production means that you move away from a model of we change code because either the business tell us to cause they have a functional requirement or because something's broken when we get into the model of but I want to improve the thing that I feel ownership of that's not alive. And you suddenly see how much difference that makes to the experience of it, the quality of it, the stability, all of those things improving. And so if I look more generally that cultural shift is an evolution that organizations go through and it starts with actually delivering it in a more agile way. At some large scale, you see agility moving up into that kind of business agility and starting to affect things like budgeting cycles and the kind of corporate functions if you like, that tend to sit around supporting peak pieces of delivery. And there's a lot more of that happening at the moment, aligned with more organizations pushing into being properly cloud native and transforming rather than the kind of first wave which was the shift onto the cloud. Now it's actually, that's really leveraged what we've got with the cloud. >> Yeah and you guys essentially have been riding on the wave of AWS and the Cloud for many, many years we've been covering it. Ben great success story. Thanks for coming on theCUBE, a head of Digital Engineering, Vodafone UK. Great example of modern engineering at work using AWS in Europe. Thanks for coming on theCUBE sharing your story. Maynard, thank you for also coming on and the work you're doing at Accenture and AWS, thank you. >> Thanks John, great to be here. >> It's theCUBE coverage of AWS Reinvent 2021 Executive Summit, I'm John Furrier your host, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(soft electronic music) >> Welcome to this special CUBE Conversation. I'm John Furrier here, in theCUBE's Palo Alto studio. We're here, remotely, with Nick Halsey who's the CEO of OKERA, hot startup doing amazing work in cloud, cloud data, cloud security, policy governance as the intersection of cloud and data comes into real stable operations. That's the number one problem. People are figuring out, right now, is how to make sure that data's addressable and also secure and can be highly governed. So Nick, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> It's great to be here, John, thank you. >> So you guys have a really hot company going on, here, and you guys are in an intersection, an interesting spot as the market kind of connects together as cloud is going full, kind of, whatever, 3.0, 4.0. You got the edge of the network developing with 5G, you've got space, you've got more connection points, you have more data flowing around. And the enterprises and the customers are trying to figure out, like, okay, how do I architect this thing. And oh, by the way, I got a, like all these compliance issues, too. So this is kind of what you could do. Take a minute to explain what your company's doing. >> Yeah, I'm happy to do that, John. So we're introduced a new category of software that we call universal data authorization or UDA which is really starting to gain some momentum in the market. And there're really two critical reasons why that happening. People are really struggling with how do I enable my digital transformation, my cloud migration while at the same time making sure that my data is secure and that I'm respecting the privacy of my customers, and complying with all of these emerging regulations around data privacy like GDPR, CCPA, and that alphabet soup of regulations that we're all starting to become aware of. >> I want to ask about the market opportunity because, you know, one of the things we see and the cloud covers normal conversations like, "Hey, modern applications are developing." We're starting to see cloud-native. You're starting to see these new use cases so you're starting to see new expectations from users and companies which creates new experiences. And this is throwing off all kinds of new, kinds of data approaches. And a lot of people are scratching their head and they feel like do they slow it down, they speed it up? Do I get a hold of the compliance side first? Do I innovate? So it's like a real kind of conflict between the two. >> Yeah, there's a real tension in most organizations. They're trying to transform, be agile, and use data to drive that transformation. But there's this explosion of the volume, velocity, and variety of data, we've all heard about the three Ds, we'll say there're five Ds. You know, it's really complicated. So you've got the people on the business side of the house and the Chief Data Officer who want to enable many more uses of all of these great data assets. But of course, you've got your security teams and your regulatory and compliance teams that want to make sure they're doing that in the right way. And so you've got to build a zero-trust infrastructure that allows you to be agile and be secure at the same time. And that's why you need universal data authorization because the old manual ways of trying to securely deliver data to people just don't scale in today's demanding environments. >> Well I think that's a really awesome approach, having horizontally scalable data. Like infrastructure would be a great benefit. Take me through what this means. I'd like to get you to define, if you don't mind, what is universal data authorization. What is the definition? What does that mean? >> Exactly and people are like, "I don't understand security. "I do data over here and privacy, "well I do that over here." But the reality is you really need to have the right security platform in order to express your privacy policies, right. And so in the old days, we used to just build it into the database, or we'd build it into the analytic tools. But now, we have too much data in too many platforms in too many locations being accessed by too many, you know, BI applications and A-I-M-L data apps and so you need to centralize the policy definition and policy enforcement so that it can be applied everywhere in the organization. And the example I like to give, John, is we are just like identity access management. Why do I need Okta or Sale Point, or one of those tools? Can't I just log in individually to, you know, SalesForce or to GitHub or? Sure, you can but once you have 30 or 40 systems and thousands of users, it's impossible to manage your employee onboarding and off-boarding policy in a safe and secure way. So you abstract it and then you centralize it and then you can manage and scale it. And that's the same thing you do with OKERA. We do all of the security policy enforcement for all of your data platforms via all of your analytic tools. Anything from Tableau to Databricks to Snowflake, you name it, we support those environments. And then as we're applying the security which says, "Oh, John is allowed access to this data in this format "at this time," we can also make sure that the privacy is governed so that we only show the last four digits of your social security number, or we obfuscate your home address. And we certainly don't show them your bank balance, right? So you need to enable the use of the data without violating the security and privacy rights that you need to enforce. But you can do both, with our customers are doing at incredible scale, then you have sort of digital transformation nirvana resulting from that. >> Yeah, I mean I love what you're saying with the scale piece, that's huge. At AWS's Reinforce Virtual Conference that they had to run because the event was canceled due to the Delta COVID surge, Stephen Schmidt gave a great keynote, I called it a master class, but he mainly focused on cyber security threats. But you're kind of bringing that same architectural thinking to the data privacy, data security piece. 'Cause it's not so much you're vulnerable for hacking, it's still a zero-trust infrastructure for access and management, but-- >> Well you mean you need security for many reasons. You do want to be able to protect external hacks. I mean, every week there's another T-Mobile, you know, you name it, so that's... But 30% of data breaches are by internal trusted users who have rights. So what you needed to make sure is that you're managing those rights and that you're not creating any long tails of data access privilege that can be abused, right? And you also need, one of the great benefits of using a platform like OKERA, is we have a centralized log of what everybody is doing and when, so I could see that you, John, tried to get into the salary database 37 times in the last hour and maybe we don't want to let you do that. So we have really strong stakeholder constituencies in the security and regulatory side of the house because, you know, they can integrate us with Splunk and have a single pane of glass on, weird things are happening in the network and there's, people are trying to hit these secure databases. I can really do event correlation and analysis, I can see who's touching what PII when and whether it's authorized. So people start out by using us to do the enforcement but then they get great value after they've been using us for a while, using that data, usage data, to be able to better manage their environments. >> It's interesting, you know, you bring up the compliance piece as a real added value and I wasn't trying to overlook it but it brings up a good point which is you have, you have multiple benefits when you have a platform like this. So, so take me through like, who's using the product. You must have a lot of customers kicking the tires and adopting it because architecturally, it makes a lot of sense. Take me through a deployment of what it's like in the customer environment. How are they using it? What is some of the first mover types using this approach? And what are some of the benefits they might be realizing? >> Yeah, as you would imagine, our early adopters have been primarily very large organizations that have massive amounts of data. And they tend also to be in more regulated industries like financial services, biomedical research and pharmaceuticals, retail with tons of, you know, consumer information, those are very important. So let me give you an example. We work with one of the very largest global sports retailers in the world, I can't use their name publicly, and we're managing all of their privacy rights management, GDPR, CCPA, worldwide. It's a massive undertaking. Their warehouse is over 65 petabytes in AWS. They have many thousands of users in applications. On a typical day, an average day OKERA is processing and governing six trillion rows of data every single day. On Black Friday, it peaked over 10 trillion rows of data a day, so this is scale that most people really will never get to. But one of the benefits of our architecture is that we are designed to be elastically scalable to sort of, we actually have a capability we call N scale because we can scale to the Nth degree. We really can go as far as you need to in terms of that. And it lets them do extraordinary things in terms of merchandising and profitability and market basket analysis because their teams can work with that data. And even though it's governed and redacted and obfuscated to maintain the individuals' privacy rights, we still let them see the totality of the data and do the kind of analytics that drive the business. >> So large scale, big, big customer base that wants scale, some, I'll say data's huge. What are some of the largest data lakes that you guys have been working with? 'Cause sometimes you hear people saying our data lakes got zettabytes and petabytes of content. What are some of the, give us a taste of the order of magnitude of some of the size of the data lakes and environments that your customers were able to accomplish. >> I want to emphasize that this is really important no matter what size because some of our customers are smaller tech-savvy businesses that aren't necessarily processing huge volumes of data, but it's the way that they are using the data that drives the need for us. But having said that, we're working with one major financial regulator who has a data warehouse with over 200 petabytes of data that we are responsible for providing the governance for. And one thing about that kind of scale that's really important, you know, when you want to have everybody in your organization using data at that scale, which people think of as democratizing your data, you can't just democratize the data, you also have to democratize the governance of the date, right? You can't centralize policy management in IT because then everybody who wants access to the data still has to go back to IT. So you have to make it really easy to write policy and you have to make it very easy to delegate policy management down to the departments. So I need to be able to say this person in HR is going to manage these 50 datasets for those 200 people. And I'm going to delegate the responsibility to them but I'm going to have centralized reporting and auditing so I can trust but verify, right? I can see everything they're doing and I can see how they are applying policy. And I also need to be able to set policy at the macro level at the corporate level that they inherit so I might just say I don't care who you are, nobody gets to see anything but the last four digits of your social security number. And they can do further rules beyond that but they can't change some of the master rules that you're creating. So you need to be able to do this at scale but you need to be able to do it easily with a graphical policy builder that lets you see policy in plain English. >> Okay, so you're saying scale, and then the more smaller use cases are more refined or is it more sensitive data? Regulated data? Or more just levels of granularity? Is that the use case? >> You know, I think there's two things that are really moving the market right now. So the move to remote work with COVID really changed everybody's ideas about how do you do security because you're no longer in a data center, you no longer have a firewall. The Maginot Line of security is gone away and so in a zero-trust world, you know, you have to secure four endpoints: the data, the device, the user, and the application. And so this pretty radical rethinking of security is causing everybody to think about this, big, small, or indifferent. Like, Gartner just came out with a study that said by 2025 75% of all user data in the world is going to be governed by privacy policy. So literally, everybody has to do this. And so we're seeing a lot more tech companies that manage data on behalf of other users, companies that use data as a commodity, they're transacting data. Really, really understand the needs for this and when you're doing data exchange between companies that is really delicate process that have to be highly governed. >> Yeah, I love the security redo. We asked Pat Gelsinger many, many years ago when he was a CEO of VMware what we thought about security and Dave Allante, my co-host at theCUBE said is it a do-over? He said absolutely it's a do-over. I think it was 2013. He mused around that time frame. It's kind of a do-over and you guys are hitting it. This is a key thing. Now he's actually the CEO of Intel and he's still driving forward. Love Pat's vision on this early, but this brings up the question okay, if it's a do-over and these new paradigms are existing and you guys are building a category, okay, it's a new thing. So I have to ask you, I'm sure your customers would say, "Hey, I already got that in another platform." So how do you address that because when you're new you have to convince the customer that this is a new thing. Like, I don't-- >> So, so look, if somebody is still running on Teradata and they have all their security in place and they have a single source of the truth and that's working for them, that's great. We see a lot of our adoption happening as people go on their cloud transformation journey. Because I'm lifting and shifting a lot of data up into the cloud and I'm usually also starting to acquire data from other sources as I'm doing that, and I may be now streaming it in. So when I lift and shift the data, unfortunately, all of the security infrastructure you've built gets left behind. And so a lot of times, that's the forcing function that gets people to realize that they have to make a change here, as well. And we also find other characteristics like, people who are getting proactive in their data transformation initiatives, they'll often hire a CDO, they'll start to use modern data cataloging tools and identity access management tools. And when we see people adopting those things, we understand that they are on a journey that we can help them with. And so we partner very closely with the catalog vendors, with the identity access vendors, you know, with many other parts of the data lake infrastructure because we're just part of the stack, right? But we are the last mile because we're the part of the stack that lets the user connect. >> Well I think you guys are on a wave that's massive and I think it's still, it's going to be bigger coming forward. Again, when you see categories being created it's usually at the beginning of a bigger wave. And I got to ask you because one thing's I've been really kind of harping on on theCUBE and pounding my fist on the table is these siloed approaches. And you're seeing 'em everywhere, I mean, even in the consumer world. LinkedIn's a silo. Facebook's a silo. So you have this siloed mentality. Certainly in the enterprise they're no stranger to silos. So if you want to be horizontally scalable with data you've got to have it free, you've got to break the silos. Are we going to get there? Is this the beginning? Are we breaking down the silos, Nick, or is this the time or what's your reaction to that? >> I'll tell you something, John. I have spent 30 years in the data and analytics business and I've been fortunate enough to help launch many great BI companies like Tableau and Brio Software, and Jaspersoft and Alphablocks we were talking about before the show. Every one of those companies would have been much more successful if they had OKERA because everybody wanted to spread those tools across the organization for better, more agile business analytics, but they were always held back by the security problem. And this was before privacy rights were even a thing. So now with UDA and I think hand-in-hand with identity access management, you truly have the ability to deliver analytic value at scale. And that's key, you need simplicity at scale and that is what lets you let all parts of your organization be agile with data and use it to transform the business. I think we can do that, now. Because if you run in the cloud, it's so easy, I can stand up things like Hadoop in, you know, like Databricks, like Snowflake. I could never do that in my on-prem data center but I can literally press a button and have a very sophisticated data platform, press a button, have OKERA, have enforcement. Really, almost any organization can now take advantage of what only the biggest and most sophisticated organizations use to be able to do it. >> I think Snowflake's an example for all companies that you could essentially build in the shadows of the big clouds and build your own franchise if you nail the security and privacy and that value proposition of scale and good product. So I got, I love this idea of security and privacy managed to a single platform. I'd love to get your final thought while I got you here, on programmability because I'm seeing a lot of regulators and people in the privacy world puttin' down all these rules. You got GDPR and I want to write we forgot and I got all these things... There's a trend towards programmability around extraction of data and managing data where just a simple query could be like okay, I want to know what's goin' on with my privacy and we're a media company and so we record a lot of data too, and we've got to comply with all these like, weird requests, like hey, can you, on June 10th, I want, can you take out my data? And so that's programmatic, that's not a policy thing. It's not like a lawyer with some privacy policy. That's got to be operationalized. So what's your reaction to that as this world starts to be programmable? >> Right, well that's key to our design. So we're an API first approach. We are designed to be a part of a very sophisticated mesh of technology and data so it's extremely simple to just call us to get the information that you need or to express a policy on the fly that might be created because of the current state-based things that are going on. And that's very, very important when you start to do real-time applications that require geo-fencing, you're doing 5G edge computing. It's a very dynamic environment and the policies need to change to reflect the conditions on the ground, so to speak. And so to be callable, programmable, and betable, that is an absolutely critical approach to implementing IUDA in the enterprise. >> Well this is super exciting, I feel you guys are on, again, a bigger wave than it appears. I mean security and privacy operating system, that's what you guys are. >> It is. >> It is what it is. Nick, great to chat with you. >> Couldn't have said it better. >> I love the category creation, love the mojo and I think you guys are on the right track. I love this vision merging data security policy in together into one to get some enablement and get some value creation for your customers and partners. Thanks for coming on to theCUBE. I really appreciate it. >> Now, it's my pleasure and I would just give one piece of advice to our listeners. You can use this everywhere in your organization but don't start with that. Don't boil the ocean, pick one use case like the right to be forgotten and let us help you implement that quickly so you can see the ROI and then we can go from there. >> Well I think you're going to have a customer in theCUBE. We will be calling you. We need this. We've done a lot of digital events now with the pandemic, so locked data that we didn't have to deal with before. But thanks for coming on and sharing, appreciate it. OKERA, hot startup. >> My pleasure, John and thank you so much. >> So OKERA conversation, I'm John Furrier here, in Palo Alto. Thanks for watching. (soft electronic music)