>>Hey, everyone. Welcome to the cubes coverage of women in data science, 2022. I'm Lisa Martin. And I'm here with one of the key featured keynotes for this year is with events. So the Aragon, the professor and department of human centered design and engineering at the university of Washington Cecilia, it's a pleasure to have you on the cube. >>Thank you so much, Lisa Lisa, it's a pleasure to be here as well. >>You got an amazing background that I want to share with the audience. You are a professor, you are a data scientist, an aerobatic pilot, and an author with expertise in human centered, data science, visual analytics, aviation safety, and analysis of extremely large and complex data sets. That's quite the background. >>Well, thank you so much. It's it's all very interesting and fun. So, >>And as a professor, you study how people make sense of vast data sets, including a combination of computer science and art, which I love. And as an author, you write about interesting things. You write about how to overcome fear, which is something that everybody can benefit from and how to expand your life until it becomes amazing. I need to take a page out of your book. You were also honored by president Obama a few years back. My goodness. >>Thank you so much. Yes. I I've had quite a journey to come here, but I feel really fortunate to be here today. >>Talk about that journey. I'd love to understand if you were always interested in stem, if it was something that you got into later, I know that you are the co-founder of Latinas in computing, a passionate advocate for girls and women in stem. Were you always interested in stem or was it something that you got into in a kind of a non-linear path? >>I was always interested in it when I was a young girl. I grew up in a small Midwestern town and my parents are both immigrants and I was one of the few Latinas in a mostly white community. And I was, um, I loved math, but I also wanted to be an astronaut. And I remember I, when we were asked, I think it was in second grade. What would you like to be when you grow up? I said, oh, I want to be an astronaut. And my teacher said, oh, you can't do that. You're a girl pick something else. And um, so I picked math and she was like, okay. >>Um, so I always wanted to, well, maybe it would be better to say I never really quite lost my love of being up in the air and potentially space. But, um, but I ended up working in math and science and, um, I, I loved it because one of the great advantages of math is that it's kind of like a magic trick for young people, especially if you're a girl or if you are from an underrepresented group, because if you get the answers right on a math test, no one can mark you wrong. It doesn't matter what the color of your skin is or what your gender is. Math is powerful that way. And I will say there's nothing like standing in a room in front of a room of people who think little of you and you silence them with your love with numbers. >>I love that. I never thought about math as power before, but it clearly is. But also, you know, and, and I wish we had more time because I would love to get into how you overcame that fear. And you write books about that, but being told you can't be an astronaut. You're a girl and maybe laughing at you because you liked Matt. How did you overcome that? And so nevermind I'm doing it anyway. >>Well, that's a, it's a, okay. The short answer is I had incredible imposter syndrome. I didn't believe that I was smart enough to get a PhD in math and computer science. But what enabled me to do that was becoming a pilot and I B I learned how to fly small airplanes. I learned how to fly them upside down and pointing straight at the ground. And I know this might sound kind of extreme. So this is not what I recommend to everybody. But if you are brought up in a way where everybody thinks little of you, one of the best things you can possibly do is take on a challenge. That's scary. I was afraid of everything, but by learning to fly and especially learning to fly loops and rolls, it gave me confidence to do everything else because I thought I appointed the airplane at the ground at 250 miles an hour and waited, why am I afraid to get a PhD in computer science? >>Wow. How empowering is that? >>Yeah, it really was. So that's really how I overcame the fear. And I will say that, you know, I encountered situations getting my PhD in computer science where I didn't believe that I was good enough to finish the degree. I didn't believe that I was smart enough. And what I've learned later on is that was just my own emotional, you know, residue from my childhood and from people telling me that they, you know, that they, that I couldn't achieve >>As I look what, look what you've achieved so far. It's amazing. And we're going to be talking about some of the books that you've written, but I want to get into data science and AI and get your thoughts on this. Why is it necessary to think about human issues and data science >>And what are your thoughts there? So there's been a lot of work in data science recently looking at societal impacts. And if you just address data science as a purely technical field, and you don't think about unintended consequences, you can end up with tremendous injustices and societal harms and harms to individuals. And I think any of us who has dealt with an inflexible algorithm, even if you just call up, you know, customer service and you get told, press five for this press four for that. And you say, well, I don't fit into any of those categories, you know, or have the system hang up on you after an hour. I think you'll understand that any type of algorithmic approach, especially on very large data sets has the risk of impacting people, particularly from low income or marginalized groups, but really any of us can be impacted in a negative way. >>And so, as a developer of algorithms that work over very large data sets, I've always found it really important to consider the humans on the other end of the algorithm. And that's why I believe that all data science is truly human centered or should be human centered, should be human centered and also involves both technical issues as well as social issues. Absolutely correct. So one example is that, um, many of us who started working in data science, including I have to admit me when I started out assume that data is unbiased. It's scrubbed of human influence. It is pure in some ways, however, that's really not true as I've started working with datasets. And this is generally known in the field that data sets are touched by humans everywhere. As a matter of fact, in our, in the recent book that we're, that we're coming out with human centered data science, we talk about five important points where humans touch data, no matter how scrubbed of human influence it's support it's supposed to be. >>Um, so the first one is discovery. So when a human encounters, a data set and starts to use it, it's a human decision. And then there's capture, which is the process of searching for a data set. So any data that has to be selected and chosen by an individual, um, then once that data set is brought in there's curation, a human will have to select various data sets. They'll have to decide what is, what is the proper set to use. And they'll be making judgements on this the time. And perhaps one of the most important ways the data is changed and touched by humans is what we call the design of data. And what that means is whenever you bring in a data set, you have to categorize it. No, for example, let's suppose you are, um, a geologist and you are classifying soil data. >>Well, you don't just take whatever the description of the soil data is. You actually may put it into a previously established taxonomy and you're making human judgments on that. So even though you think, oh, geology data, that's just rocks. You know, that's soil. It has nothing to do with people, but it really does. Um, and finally, uh, people will label the data that they have. And this is especially critical when humans are making subjective judgments, such as what race is the person in this dataset. And they may judge it based on looking at the individual skin color. They may try to apply an algorithm to it, but you know what? We all have very different skin colors, categorizing us into race boxes, really diminishes us and makes us less than we truly are. So it's very important to realize that humans touch the data. We interpret the data. It is not scrubbed of bias. And when we make algorithmic decisions, even the very fact of having an algorithm that makes a judgment say on whether a prisoner's likely to offend again, the judge just by having an algorithm, even if the algorithm makes a recommended statement, they are impacted by that algorithms recommendation. And that has obviously an impact on that human's life. So we consider all of this. >>So you just get given five solid reasons why data science and AI are inevitably human centric should be, but in the past, what's led to the separation between data science and humans. >>Well, I think a lot of it simply has to do with incorrect mental models. So many of us grew up thinking that, oh, humans have biases, but computers don't. And so if we just take decision-making out of people's hands and put it into the hands of an algorithm, we will be having less biased results. However, recent work in the field of data science and artificial intelligence has shown that that's simply not true that algorithmic algorithms reinforce human biases. They amplify them. So algorithmic biases can be much worse than human biases and can greater impact. >>So how do we pull ethics into all of this data science and AI and that ethical component, which seems to be that it needs to be foundational. >>It absolutely has to be foundational. And this is why we believe. And what we teach at the university of Washington in our data science courses is that ethical and human centered approaches and ideas have to be brought in at the very beginning of the algorithm. It's not something you slap on at the end or say, well, I'll wait for the ethicists to weigh in on this. Now we are all human. We can all make human decisions. We can all think about the unintended consequences of our algorithms as we develop them. And we should do that at the very beginning. And all algorithm designers really need to spend some time thinking about the impact that their algorithm may have. >>Right. Do you, do you find that people are still in need of convincing of that or is it generally moving in that direction of understanding? We need to bring ethics in from the beginning, >>It's moving in that direction, but there are still people who haven't modified their mental models yet. So we're working on it. And we hope that with the publication of our book, that it will be used as a supplemental textbook in many data science courses that are focused exclusively on the algorithms and that they can open up the idea that considering the human centered approaches at the beginning of learning about algorithms and data science and the mathematical and statistical techniques, that the next generation of data scientists and artificial intelligence developers will be able to mitigate some of the potentially harmful effects. And we're very excited about this. This is why I'm a professor, because I want to teach the next generation of data scientists and artificial intelligence experts, how to make sure that their work really achieves what they intended it to, which is to make the world a better place, not a worse place, but to enable humans to do better and to mitigate biases and really to lead us into this century in a positive way. >>So the book, human centered data science, you can see it there over Sicily, his right shoulder. When does this come out and how can folks get a copy of it? >>So it came out March 1st and it's available in bookstores everywhere. It was published by MIT press, and you can go online or you can go to your local independent bookstore, or you can order it from your university bookstore as well. >>Excellent. Got to, got to get a copy of, get my hands on that. Got cut and get a copy and dig into that. Cause it sounds so interesting, but also so thoughtful and, um, clear in the way that you described that. And also all the opportunities that, that AI data science and humans are gonna unlock for the world and humans and jobs and, and great things like that. So I'm sure there's lots of great information there. Last question I mentioned, you are keynoting at this year's conference. Talk to me about like the top three takeaways that the audience is going to get from your keynote. >>So I'm very excited to have been invited to wins this year, which of course is a wonderful conference to support women in data science. And I've been a big fan of the conference since it was first developed here, uh, here at Stanford. Um, the three, the three top takeaways I would say is to really consider the data. Science can be rigorous and mathematical and human centered and ethical. It's not a trade-off, it's both at the same time. And that's really the, the number one that, that I'm hoping to keynote will bring to, to the entire audience. And secondly, I hope that it will encourage women or people who've been told that maybe you're not a science person or this isn't for you, or you're not good at math. I hope it will encourage them to disbelieve those views. And to realize that if you, as a member of any type of unread, underrepresented group have ever felt, oh, I'm not good enough for this. >>I'm not smart enough. It's not for me that you will reconsider because I firmly believe that everyone can be good at math. And it's a matter of having the information presented to you in a way that honors your, the background you had. So when I started out my, my high school didn't have AP classes and I needed to learn in a somewhat different way than other people around me. And it's really, it's really something. That's what I tell young people today is if you are struggling in a class, don't think it's because you're not good enough. It might just be that the teacher is not presenting it in a way that is best for someone with your particular background. So it doesn't mean they're a bad teacher. It doesn't mean you're unintelligent. It just means the, maybe you need to find someone else that can explain it to you in a simple and clear way, or maybe you need to get some scaffolding that is Tate, learn extra, take extra classes that will help you. Not necessarily remedial classes. I believe very strongly as a teacher in giving students very challenging classes, but then giving them the scaffolding so that they can learn that difficult material. And I have longer stories on that, but I think I've already talked a bit too long. >>I love that. The scaffolding, I th I think the, the one, one of the high level takeaways that we're all going to get from your keynote is inspiration. Thank you so much for sharing your path to stem, how you got here, why humans, data science and AI are, have to be foundationally human centered, looking forward to the keynote. And again, Cecilia, Aragon. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. >>Thank you so much, Lisa. It's been a pleasure, >>Likewise versus silly Aragon. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage of women in data science, 2022.

(energetic music) >> Announcer: Live, from Stanford University in Palo Alto, California, it's The Cube, covering Women in Data Science Conference 2018. Brought to you by Stanford. >> Welcome back to The Cube. We are live at Stanford University at the third annual Women in Data Science Conference. I am Lisa Martin. We've had a really exciting day so far, talking with a lot of female leaders in different parts of STEM fields. And I'm excited to be joined by my next guest, who is a speaker at this year's WIDS 2018 event, Daniela Witten, the Associate Professor of Statistics and Biostatistics at the University of Washington. Daniela, thanks so much for stopping by The Cube. >> Oh, thanks so much for the invitation. >> So here we are at Stanford University. You spent quite a lot of time here. You've got three degrees from Stanford, so it's kind of like coming back home? >> Yeah, I've spent from 2001 to 2010 here. I started with a bachelor's degree in math and biology, and then I did a master's, and finally a PhD in statistics. >> And so now you're up at the University of Washington. Tell us about that. What is your focus there? >> Yeah, so my work is in statistical machine learning, with applications to large scale data coming out of biology. And so the idea is that in the last ten or 20 years, the field of biology has been totally transformed by new technologies that make it possible to measure a person's DNA sequence, or to see the activity in their brain. Really, all different types of measurements that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. But unfortunately, we don't yet know really how to make sense of these data statistically. So there's a pretty big gap between the data that we're collecting, or rather, the data that biologists are collecting, and then the scientific conclusions that we can draw from these data. So my work focuses on trying to bridge this gap by developing statistical methods that we can use to make sense of this large scale data. >> That sounds exciting. So, WIDS, this is the third year, and they have grown this event remarkably quickly. So, we had Margot Garritsen on the program a little bit earlier, and she had shared 177 regional WIDS events going on today, this week, in 53 countries. And they're expecting to reach 100,000 people. So, for you, as a speaker, what is it that attracted you to participate in the WIDS movement, and share your topic, which we'll get to in a second, what was it that sort of attracted you to that? >> Well, first of all, it's an honor to be invited to participate in this event, which, as you mentioned, is getting live streamed and so many people are watching. But what's really special for me, of course, as a woman, is that there's so many conferences out there that I speak at, and the vast majority have a couple of female speakers, and it's not because there's a lack of talent. There are plenty of very qualified women who could be speaking at these conferences. But often, the conference organizers just don't think of women right away, or maybe add a couple women as an afterthought to their speaker lineups. And so it's really wonderful to be part of a conference where all of the speakers are women, and so we can really see the broad ways in which women are contributing to data science, both in and out of industry. >> And one of the things that Margot shared was, she had this idea with her co-founders only three years ago in 2015, and they got from concept to their first event in six months. >> Daniela: Women know how to get things done. >> We do, don't we? (laughs) But also what it showed, and even in 2015, and we still have this problem in 2018, is there's a massive demand for this. >> Yeah. >> The statistics, speaking of statistics, the numbers show very few women that are getting degrees in STEM subjects are actually working in their field. I just saw this morning, it's really cool, interactive infographic that someone shared with me on Twitter, thank you very much, that showed that 20 percent of females get degrees in engineering, but only 11 percent of them are working in engineering. And you think, "How have we gone backwards in the last 30 years?" But at least now we've got this movement, this phenomenon that is WIDS to start, even from an awareness perspective, of showing we don't have a lot of thought diversity. We have a great opportunity to increase that, and you've got a great platform in order to share your story. >> Yeah. Well, I think that you raise a good point though, as, even though the number of women majoring in STEM fields, at least in some areas of STEM has increased, the number of women making it higher up in the STEM ladder hasn't, for the most part. And one reason for this is possibly the lack of female role models. So being able to attend a conference like this, for young women who are interested in developing their career in STEM, I'm sure is really inspirational and a great opportunity. So it's wonderful for Margot and the other organizers to have put this together. >> It is. Even on the recruiting side, some of the things that still surprise me are when some, whether it's universities or companies that are going to universities to recruit for STEM roles, they're still bringing mostly men. And if there are females at the events, they're, often times they're handing out swag, they're doing more event coordination, which is great. I'm a marketer. There's a lot of females in marketing. But it still shows the need to start from a visibility standpoint and a messaging standpoint alone. They've got to flip this. >> I completely agree with that, but it also works the other way. So, often a company or an academic department might have a few women in a particular role, and those women get asked to do everything. Because they'll say, "Oh, we're going to Stanford to recruit. We need a woman there. We're having some event, and we don't want it to look totally non-diverse, so we need a woman there too." And the small number of women in STEM get asked to do a lot of things that the men don't get asked to do, and this can also be really problematic. Even though the intent is good, to clearly showcase the fact that there's diversity in STEM and in academia, the end outcome can actually be hurtful to the women involved who are being asked to do more than their fair share. So we need to find a way to balance this. >> Right. That balance is key. So what I want to kind of pivot on next is, just looking at the field of data science, it's so interesting because it's very, I like 'cause it's horizontal. We just had a guest on from Uber, and we talk to on The Cube, people in many different industries, from big tech to baseball teams and things like that. And what it really shows, though, is, there's blurred lines, or maybe even lines that have evaporated between demarcated career A, B, C, D. And data science is so pervasive that it's impacting, people that are working in it, like yourself, have the ability to impact every sector, policy changes, things like that. Do you think that that message is out there enough? That the next generation understands how much impact they can make in data science? >> I think there is a lot of excitement from young people about data science. At U-dub, we have a statistics major, and it's really grown a lot in popularity in the last few years. We have a new master's degree in data science that just was started around the same time that WIDS was started, and we had 800 applicants this year. >> Wow. >> For a single masters program. Truly incredible. But I think that there's an element of it that also maybe people don't realize. So data science, there's a technical skill set that comes with it, and people are studying undergrad in statistics, and getting master's in data science in order to get that technical skill set. But there's also a non-technical skill set that's incredibly important, because data science isn't done in a vacuum. It's done within the context of interdisciplinary teams with team members from all different areas. So, for example, in my work, I work with biologists. Your previous guest from Uber, I'm sure is working with engineers and all different areas of the company. And in order to be successful in data science, you need to really not only have technical skills, but also the ability to work as a team player and to communicate your ideas. >> Yeah, you're right. Balancing those technical skills with, what some might call soft skills, empathy, collaboration, the ability to communicate, seems to be, we talked about balance earlier, a scale-wise. Would you say they're pretty equivalent, in terms of really, that would give somebody a great foundation as a data scientist? >> I would say that having both of those skill sets would give you a good foundation, yes. The extent to which either one is needed probably depends on the details of your job. >> True. So, I want to talk a little bit more about your background. Something that caught my eye was that your work has been featured in popular media. Forbes, three times, and Elle magazine, which of course, I thought, "What? I've got to talk to you about that!" Tell me a little bit about the opportunities that you've had in Forbes and in Elle magazine to share your story and to be a mentor. >> Yeah. Well, I've just been lucky to be getting involved in the field of statistics at a time when statistics is really growing in importance and interest. So the joke is, that ten years ago, if you went to a cocktail party, and you said that you were a statistician, then nobody would want to talk to you. (Lisa laughs) And now, if you go to a cocktail party and you say you're a statistician, everyone wants to know more and find out if you know of any job openings for them. >> Lisa: That's pretty cool! >> Yeah. So it's a really great time to be doing this kind of work. And there's really an increased appreciation for the fact that it's not enough to have access to a lot of data, but we really need the technical skills to make sense of that data. >> Right. So share with us a little bit about the session that you're doing here: More Data, More Statistical Problems. Tell us a little bit about that and maybe some of the three, what are the three key takeaways that the audience was hearing from you? >> Yeah. So I think the first real takeaway is, sometimes there's a feeling that, when we have a lot of data, we don't really need a deep understanding of statistics, we just need to know how to do machine learning, or how to develop a black box predictor. And so, the first point that I wanted to make is that that's not really right. Actually, the more data you have, often the more opportunity there is for your analysis to go awry, if you don't really have the solid foundations. Another point that I wanted to make is that there's been a lot of excitement about the promise of biology. So, a lot of my work has biomedical applications, and people have been hoping for many years that the new technologies that have come out in recent years in biology, would lead to improve understanding of human health and improve treatment of disease. And, it turns out, that it hasn't, at least not yet. We've got the data, but what we don't know how to do is how to analyze it yet. And so, the real gap between the data that we have and achieving its promise is actually a statistical gap. So there's a lot of opportunity for statisticians to help bridge that gap, in order to improve human health. And finally, the last point that I want to make is that a lot of these issues are really subtle. So we can try to just swing a hammer at our data and hope to get something out of it, but often there's subtle statistical issues that we need to think about, that could very much affect our results. And keeping in mind sort of the effects of our models, and some of these subtle statistical issues is very important. >> So, in terms of your team at University of Washington, or your classes that you teach, you work with undergrads. >> Yeah, I teach undergrads and PhD students, and I work mostly with PhD students. And I've just been lucky to work with incredibly talented students. I did my PhD here at Stanford, and I had a great advisor and really wonderful mentoring from my advisor and from the other faculty in the department. And so it's really great to have the opportunity now, in turn, to mentor grad students at University of Washington. >> What are some of the things that you help them with? Is it, we talk about inspiring women to get into the field, but, as you prepare these grad students to finish their master's or PhD's, and then go out either into academia or in industry, what are some of the other elements that you think is important for them to understand in terms of learning how to be assertive, or make their points in a respectful, professional way? Is that part of what you help them understand and achieve? >> That's definitely part of it. I would say another thing that I try to teach them, so everyone who I work with, all my students, they're incredibly strong technically, because you don't get into a top PhD program in statistics or biostatistics if you're not technically very strong, so what I try to help my students do is figure out not just how to solve problems, because they can solve any problem they set their mind to, but actually how to identify the problems that are likely to be high impact. Because there's so many problems out there that you can try to solve statistically, and, of course, we should all be focusing our efforts on the ones that are likely to have a really big impact on society, or on health, or whatever it is that we're trying to influence. >> Last question for you. If you look back to your education to now, what advice would you give your younger self? >> Gosh, that's a really great question. I think that I'm happy with many of the career decisions I've made. For example, getting a PhD in statistics, I think is a great career move. But, at the same time, maybe I would tell a younger version of me to take more risks, and not be so worried about meeting every requirement on time, and instead, expanding a little bit, taking more courses in other areas, and really broadening instead of just deepening my skill set. >> We've heard that sentiment echoed a number of times today, and one of the themes that I'm hearing a lot is don't be afraid to get out of your comfort zone. And it's so hard for us when we're in it, when we're younger, 'cause you don't know that, you don't have any experience there. But it's something that I always appreciate hearing from the women who've kind of led the way for those of us and then, the next generation, is, don't be afraid to get comfortably uncomfortable and as you said, take risks. It's not a bad thing, right? Well, Daniela, thanks so much for carving out some time to visit us on The Cube, and we're happy to have given you the opportunity to reach an even bigger audience with your message, and we wish you continued success at U-dub. >> Oh, thanks so much. >> We want to thank you for watching. I'm Lisa Martin live with The Cube at WIDS 2018 from Stanford University. Stick around, I'll be back with my next guest after a short break. (energetic music)

>> Announcer: Live from Las Vegas, it's theCUBE. Covering AWS re:Invent 2017. Presented by AWS, Intel and our ecosystem of partners. >> Hey, welcome back everyone. Live here this is theCUBE in Las Vegas for AWS Amazon Web Services re:Invent 2017. Our 5th year covering the event. Wall to wall coverage. Three days, this is our day two. 45,000 people here. Developers and business connecting together this year. Big show. Amazon continues its growth. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Justin Warren. Our next guest is from Washington County Sheriff's Office using Amazon, Amazon Recognition, Chris Adzima, who is the Senior Information Systems Analyst at the Washington County Sheriff. Welcome to theCUBE. >> Nice to have you. >> So Chris. >> be here. >> So, so tons of cool stuff we saw on stage today. You know they've had polylex out for awhile. But you're gonna start to see some of these multi-media services around. Human identification, transcription, Recognition's been out for awhile. With the power of the cloud, you can start rollin' out some pretty cool services. You have one of 'em, talk about your solution and what you guys are doing with it. >> Sure, about last year when Recognition was announced, I wanted to provide our deputies at the Sheriff's office with the way to identify people based on videos that we get from either surveillance or eyewitnesses. So, I looked into Recognition and decided that we should give it a try by giving all of our booking photos or mugshots up to the cloud for it to be indexed. So, that's what I did. I indexed all, about 300,000 booking photos, we have in the last 10 years, and put that into a Recognition Collection. And now I can use the simple tools that AWS gives me to search against that index for any new image that we get in, either from surveillance or an eyewitness, allowing us to get identification within seconds as opposed to having to go through all 700 employees at the Sheriff's Office for the chance that they might have known the person. >> So the old way was essentially grab the footage, and then do the old mugshot kinda scan manually, right? >> Yeah, manually. It wasn't in a book, it was on a website, but essentially, yeah, you had to-- >> I made my point, it sucks. It's hard as hell. >> It's very difficult, very difficult. >> You see on TV all the magic pictures goin' on and the facial recognition, you see on the movies and stuff. How close are we to that right now in terms of that capability? >> Well as far as facial recognition goes it all depends on the data that you have at your fingertips. Right now I have booking photos, so I can identify people with a very high level of certainty if they've been in our jail. If they haven't been in our jail, I obviously don't have much of a chance of identifying them. So, what you see on the TV where it's like, we looked through all the DMV records. We looked through all of the people on the street and all this stuff, We're pretty far off from that because nobody has a catalog of all those images. >> You need to incorporate of all the pictures, all the data. >> Yeah, but when you have the data, it's very simple. >> Right, and it's a lot like scanning for fingerprints. It's like, people would have seen that. You know, you have a fingerprint that you've collected from the crime scene-- >> Chris: Exactly. >> We see it on NCIS or something where you scan through all of that. So, it's pretty similar to that. >> Yeah, it's similar to that, or DNA, or anything like that. If you have the data set, it's very easy to search for those people. >> Yeah. >> So, faces are no different. >> So, how long did it take you to get up and running? Did you have to ingest the photos? How did you do that or? >> So... >> John: They're on a website so you had 'em on digital already. >> From never knowing anything about Amazon Web Services, to a fully-functional prototype of this product took me 30 days. >> John: Wow. >> I had the photos uploaded and the ability to actually run the searches via the API in three. So, extremely easy. Extremely easy. >> So, given the success that you've had with that particular producr, are there other services at AWS that you're looking into? That say, hey, that would actually be really useful for us? >> Yes, a couple that were announced today. First off, the recognition for video. Something that we have a problem with, and I'm hoping recognition for video's going to help with is when you have a surveillance camera, people are moving all the time. Therefore, trying to get a screenshot is going to get a blurry image. We're not getting good results with low-light or low frame rate. But recognition for video is gonna be able to take that movement and still look at the face. Hopefully we're gonna be able to get a better facial identification that way. >> Justin: Okay. >> Another thing that I want to look into is this DeepLens they just announced today. >> John: Awesome. >> That looks extremely promising in the way of me being able to teach it things that we need. A great example of what I would use this for is when a inmate comes in, we take pictures of scars, marks and tattoos. That way, we have a database of all the scars, marks and tattoos on somebody. In case, if they recommit a crime and our eye-witness says, "They had a skull tattoo on their chest" we can then look through all of the people that have a skull tattoo and say, "These are our list of possible suspects." The problem with that is, is that you may enter somebody in as a skull, and you may enter it in as crossbones. Somebody else might put an accidental I in there. So it's very hard to do a text search against that. But if recognition were to come through, or it wouldn't be recognition in this case. If whatever model I built with the DeepLens came through, and said this is a skull and this is the word we use, then I'd be able to index all of those images, quickly pull them up, so we wouldn't even need a picture. We would just need to know, from an eye-witness, that there was a skull on that person's chest. >> John: We had a guest on yesterday from Thorn, which Intel is doing AI for good, and they use essentially, and they didn't say Craigslist, but trying to look for women who were being sold for prostitution, and exploited children and whatnot. And it's all machine learning, and some natural language processing. When you look at the Sage announcement, that looks promising, 'cause they're gonna make, as I was try to democratize the heavy-lifting around all of this, you know, voodoo machine learning. Which, I mean, if you're totally a computer science geek and that's all you do, yeah, you could probably master machine learning. But if you're a practitioner, you're just whipping up. >> Well, yeah, and that's a good example. Because I am not a data scientist. I have no idea how this stuff works in the back end. But being able to utilize, stand on the shoulders of these giants, so to speak, is allowing people like me who A, I only have seven people on my team to devote to this kind of thing. We don't have a lot of resources. We wouldn't be able to get a data scientist. But opening this stuff up to us allows us to build these things, like this facial recognition and other things based on machine learning. And ultimately keep our citizens safe through the work that AWS does in getting this to us. >> Justin: Yeah, and we've been saying at a couple of different interviews so far, that humans don't scale. So these tools that provide the humans that you do have a lot more leverage to get things done. So, we were talking just before, before we started recording that these are tools that assist the humans. You're not replacing the humans with machines that just go oh we're gonna cede all decision-making to you. This is just another tool like being able to fingerprint people and search that. It's one more way of doing the standard policing that you are already doing. >> Exactly, and the tool that I've already created, and any tool I create after that, doesn't ever look to replace our deputies or our detectives. We give them things so that they don't have to do the things like flipping through that book for hours upon hours. They can be out in the field, following the leads, keeping the community safe and apprehending these criminals. >> Do they have on body cameras too? >> Not yet. We are currently looking into body cameras. >> John: That's a trend. They're gonna be instrumented basically like warriors: fully loaded, you know, cameras. >> I tend not to think of it like that. Only because, again, that's a tool that we use. Not to, you know, be that land-warrior so to speak. But more of a-- >> Documentation, I mean, you see 'em on cars when people get pulled over. >> Exactly. >> You've got the evidence. >> It's documentation, just like anything else. It's just that one more tool that helps that deputy, that detective, that police officer get a better idea of the entire situation. >> Maybe I shouldn't have said war. Maybe I'm just into the Twitch culture where they're all geared up with all the gear. Okay, so next question for you is what's your vibe on the show? Obviously you have great experience working at Amazon. You're a success study because you're trying to get a job done, you got some tools and, >> Right. >> making it happen. What's your take this year? What's your vibe of the show? >> I'm really excited about a lot of stuff I'm seeing at the show. A lot of the announcements seemed like they were almost geared towards me. And I know they weren't obviously, but it really felt like announcement after announcement were these things that I'm wanting to go home and immediately start to play with. Anywhere from the stuff that was in the machine learning to the new elastic containers that they are announcing, to the new LAM defunctions that they're talking about. I mean, just all over the board. I'm very excited for all these new things that I get to go home and play with. >> What do you think, Justin? What's your take on the vibe show? >> I find that it's an interesting show. I'm finding it a little different than what I was expecting. This is my first time here at AWS re:Invent. I go to a lot of other trade shows and I was expecting more of like a developer show. Like I'm going to CubeCon next week and that's full of people with spiky hair, and pink shoes, and craziness. >> John: That's the area, by the way. >> Oh that's the area, right. It's a bit more casual than some of the other more businessy sort of conferences. I mean, here I am, wearing a jacket. So I don't feel completely out of place here, but it does feel like it's that blending of business and use cases and the things that you actually get done with it as well as there being people who have the tools that they want to go and build amazing new things with. >> Chris: Right, right, yeah. >> So it's a nice blend, I think. >> Yeah, I've found that it definitely doesn't feel like any other developer conference I've been to. But being in the public sector, I tend to go to the more business-suit conferences. >> John: This is like total developer for you, from a public sector perspective. >> From where I'm coming from, this is very laid back. And extremely... >> Oh yeah. >> But at the same time, it's very like a mixture. Like you said, you see executives mingling with the developers talking about things-- >> John: You're a good example I think of Amazon. First of all, there's the builder thing in the area is supposed to be pretty cool. I was told to go there last night. People came back, it was very much builder, kind of maker culture. They're doing prototypes, it was very developer-oriented. But the public sector, I'm astonished by Amazon's success there because the stuff is easy and low-cost to get in. And public sector is not known for its agility. >> Chris: No. >> I mean, it's music to your ears, right? I mean, if you're in the public sector, you're like, "What? Now I can get it done?" >> Very much so. And one thing I love to share about our solution is the price, right? Because I spent $6 a month for my AWS bill. Right? >> John: Wow. >> That's extremely easy to sell to tax payers, right? It's extremely easy to sell to the higher-ups in government to say, I'm gonna tinker around with this, but even if we solve one crime, we've already seen a return on our investment above and beyond what we expected. >> Yeah. >> No brainer, no brainer. Chris, thanks so much for sharing your story. We really appreciate it. Congratulations on your success and keep in touch with theCube. Welcome to theCube Alumni Club. >> Alright. >> John: For coming out, it's theCube here. Amazon re:Invent, bringing all the action down, all of the success stories, all of the analysis. I'm John Furrier with theCube. More live coverage after this short break. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Hey! Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of WiDS 2023, the eighth Annual Women In Data Science Conference. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. We are at Stanford University, as you know we are every year, having some wonderful conversations with some very inspiring women and men in data science and technical roles. I'm very pleased to introduce Tracy Zhang, my co-host, who is in the Data Journalism program at Stanford. And Tracy and I are pleased to welcome our next guest, Rhonda Crate, Principal Data Scientist at Boeing. Great to have you on the program, Rhonda. >> Tracy: Welcome. >> Hey, thanks for having me. >> Were you always interested in data science or STEM from the time you were young? >> No, actually. I was always interested in archeology and anthropology. >> That's right, we were talking about that, anthropology. Interesting. >> We saw the anthropology background, not even a bachelor's degree, but also a master's degree in anthropology. >> So you were committed for a while. >> I was, I was. I actually started college as a fine arts major, but I always wanted to be an archeologist. So at the last minute, 11 credits in, left to switch to anthropology. And then when I did my master's, I focused a little bit more on quantitative research methods and then I got my Stat Degree. >> Interesting. Talk about some of the data science projects that you're working on. When I think of Boeing, I always think of aircraft. But you are doing a lot of really cool things in IT, data analytics. Talk about some of those intriguing data science projects that you're working on. >> Yeah. So when I first started at Boeing, I worked in information technology and data analytics. And Boeing, at the time, had cored up data science in there. And so we worked as a function across the enterprise working on anything from shared services to user experience in IT products, to airplane programs. So, it has a wide range. I worked on environment health and safety projects for a long time as well. So looking at ergonomics and how people actually put parts onto airplanes, along with things like scheduling and production line, part failures, software testing. Yeah, there's a wide spectrum of things. >> But I think that's so fantastic. We've been talking, Tracy, today about just what we often see at WiDS, which is this breadth of diversity in people's background. You talked about anthropology, archeology, you're doing data science. But also all of the different opportunities that you've had at Boeing. To see so many facets of that organization. I always think that breadth of thought diversity can be hugely impactful. >> Yeah. So I will say my anthropology degree has actually worked to my benefit. I'm a huge proponent of integrating liberal arts and sciences together. And it actually helps me. I'm in the Technical Fellowship program at Boeing, so we have different career paths. So you can go into management, you can be a regular employee, or you can go into the Fellowship program. So right now I'm an Associate Technical Fellow. And part of how I got into the Fellowship program was that diversity in my background, what made me different, what made me stand out on projects. Even applying a human aspect to things like ergonomics, as silly as that sounds, but how does a person actually interact in the space along with, here are the actual measurements coming off of whatever system it is that you're working on. So, I think there's a lot of opportunities, especially in safety as well, which is a big initiative for Boeing right now, as you can imagine. >> Tracy: Yeah, definitely. >> I can't go into too specifics. >> No, 'cause we were like, I think a theme for today that kind of we brought up in in all of our talk is how data is about people, how data is about how people understand the world and how these data can make impact on people's lives. So yeah, I think it's great that you brought this up, and I'm very happy that your anthropology background can tap into that and help in your day-to-day data work too. >> Yeah. And currently, right now, I actually switched over to Strategic Workforce Planning. So it's more how we understand our workforce, how we work towards retaining the talent, how do we get the right talent in our space, and making sure overall that we offer a culture and work environment that is great for our employees to come to. >> That culture is so important. You know, I was looking at some anitab.org stats from 2022 and you know, we always talk about the number of women in technical roles. For a long time it's been hovering around that 25% range. The data from anitab.org showed from '22, it's now 27.6%. So, a little increase. But one of the biggest challenges still, and Tracy and I and our other co-host, Hannah, have been talking about this, is attrition. Attrition more than doubled last year. What are some of the things that Boeing is doing on the retention side, because that is so important especially as, you know, there's this pipeline leakage of women leaving technical roles. Tell us about what Boeing's, how they're invested. >> Yeah, sure. We actually have a publicly available Global Diversity Report that anybody can go and look at and see our statistics for our organization. Right now, off the top of my head, I think we're hovering at about 24% in the US for women in our company. It has been a male majority company for many years. We've invested heavily in increasing the number of women in roles. One interesting thing about this year that came out is that even though with the great resignation and those types of things, the attrition level between men and women were actually pretty close to being equal, which is like the first time in our history. Usually it tends on more women leaving. >> Lisa: That's a good sign. >> Right. >> Yes, that's a good sign. >> And we've actually focused on hiring and bringing in more women and diversity in our company. >> Yeah, some of the stats too from anitab.org talked about the increase, and I have to scroll back and find my notes, the increase in 51% more women being hired in 2022 than 2021 for technical roles. So the data, pun intended, is showing us. I mean, the data is there to show the impact that having females in executive leadership positions make from a revenue perspective. >> Tracy: Definitely. >> Companies are more profitable when there's women at the head, or at least in senior leadership roles. But we're seeing some positive trends, especially in terms of representation of women technologists. One of the things though that I found interesting, and I'm curious to get your thoughts on this, Rhonda, is that the representation of women technologists is growing in all areas, except interns. >> Rhonda: Hmm. >> So I think, we've got to go downstream. You teach, I have to go back to my notes on you, did my due diligence, R programming classes through Boeings Ed Wells program, this is for WSU College of Arts and Sciences, talk about what you teach and how do you think that intern kind of glut could be solved? >> Yeah. So, they're actually two separate programs. So I teach a data analytics course at Washington State University as an Adjunct Professor. And then the Ed Wells program is a SPEEA, which is an Aerospace Union, focused on bringing up more technology and skills to the actual workforce itself. So it's kind of a couple different audiences. One is more seasoned employees, right? The other one is our undergraduates. I teach a Capstone class, so it's a great way to introduce students to what it's actually like to work on an industry project. We partner with Google and Microsoft and Boeing on those. The idea is also that maybe those companies have openings for the students when they're done. Since it's Senior Capstone, there's not a lot of opportunities for internships. But the opportunities to actually get hired increase a little bit. In regards to Boeing, we've actually invested a lot in hiring more women interns. I think the number was 40%, but you'd have to double check. >> Lisa: That's great, that's fantastic. >> Tracy: That's way above average, I think. >> That's a good point. Yeah, it is above average. >> Double check on that. That's all from my memory. >> Is this your first WiDS, or have you been before? >> I did virtually last year. >> Okay. One of the things that I love, I love covering this event every year. theCUBE's been covering it since it's inception in 2015. But it's just the inspiration, the vibe here at Stanford is so positive. WiDS is a movement. It's not an initiative, an organization. There are going to be, I think annually this year, there will be 200 different events. Obviously today we're live on International Women's Day. 60 plus countries, 100,000 plus people involved. So, this is such a positive environment for women and men, because we need everybody, underrepresented minorities, to be able to understand the implication that data has across our lives. If we think about stripping away titles in industries, everybody is a consumer, not everybody, most of mobile devices. And we have this expectation, I was in Barcelona last week at a Mobile World Congress, we have this expectation that we're going to be connected 24/7. I can get whatever I want wherever I am in the world, and that's all data driven. And the average person that isn't involved in data science wouldn't understand that. At the same time, they have expectations that depend on organizations like Boeing being data driven so that they can get that experience that they expect in their consumer lives in any aspect of their lives. And that's one of the things I find so interesting and inspiring about data science. What are some of the things that keep you motivated to continue pursuing this? >> Yeah I will say along those lines, I think it's great to invest in K-12 programs for Data Literacy. I know one of my mentors and directors of the Data Analytics program, Dr. Nairanjana Dasgupta, we're really familiar with each other. So, she runs a WSU program for K-12 Data Literacy. It's also something that we strive for at Boeing, and we have an internal Data Literacy program because, believe it or not, most people are in business. And there's a lot of disconnect between interpreting and understanding data. For me, what kind of drives me to continue data science is that connection between people and data and how we use it to improve our world, which is partly why I work at Boeing too 'cause I feel that they produce products that people need like satellites and airplanes, >> Absolutely. >> and everything. >> Well, it's tangible, it's relatable. We can understand it. Can you do me a quick favor and define data literacy for anyone that might not understand what that means? >> Yeah, so it's just being able to understand elements of data, whether that's a bar chart or even in a sentence, like how to read a statistic and interpret a statistic in a sentence, for example. >> Very cool. >> Yeah. And sounds like Boeing's doing a great job in these programs, and also trying to hire more women. So yeah, I wanted to ask, do you think there's something that Boeing needs to work on? Or where do you see yourself working on say the next five years? >> Yeah, I think as a company, we always think that there's always room for improvement. >> It never, never stops. >> Tracy: Definitely. (laughs) >> I know workforce strategy is an area that they're currently really heavily investing in, along with safety. How do we build safer products for people? How do we help inform the public about things like Covid transmission in airports? For example, we had the Confident Traveler Initiative which was a big push that we had, and we had to be able to inform people about data models around Covid, right? So yeah, I would say our future is more about an investment in our people and in our culture from my perspective >> That's so important. One of the hardest things to change especially for a legacy organization like Boeing, is culture. You know, when I talk with CEO's or CIO's or COO's about what's your company's vision, what's your strategy? Especially those companies that are on that digital journey that have no choice these days. Everybody expects to have a digital experience, whether you're transacting an an Uber ride, you're buying groceries, or you're traveling by air. That culture sounds like Boeing is really focused on that. And that's impressive because that's one of the hardest things to morph and mold, but it's so essential. You know, as we look around the room here at WiDS it's obviously mostly females, but we're talking about women, underrepresented minorities. We're talking about men as well who are mentors and sponsors to us. I'd love to get your advice to your younger self. What would you tell yourself in terms of where you are now to become a leader in the technology field? >> Yeah, I mean, it's kind of an interesting question because I always try to think, live with no regrets to an extent. >> Lisa: I like that. >> But, there's lots of failures along the way. (Tracy laughing) I don't know if I would tell myself anything different because honestly, if I did, I wouldn't be where I am. >> Lisa: Good for you. >> I started out in fine arts, and I didn't end up there. >> That's good. >> Such a good point, yeah. >> We've been talking about that and I find that a lot at events like WiDS, is women have these zigzaggy patterns. I studied biology, I have a master's in molecular biology, I'm in media and marketing. We talked about transportable skills. There's a case I made many years ago when I got into tech about, well in science you learn the art of interpreting esoteric data and creating a story from it. And that's a transportable skill. But I always say, you mentioned failure, I always say failure is not a bad F word. It allows us to kind of zig and zag and learn along the way. And I think that really fosters thought diversity. And in data science, that is one of the things we absolutely need to have is that diversity and thought. You know, we talk about AI models being biased, we need the data and we need the diverse brains to help ensure that the biases are identified, extracted, and removed. Speaking of AI, I've been geeking out with ChatGPT. So, I'm on it yesterday and I ask it, "What's hot in data science?" And I was like, is it going to get that? What's hot? And it did it, it came back with trends. I think if I ask anything, "What's hot?", I should be to Paris Hilton, but I didn't. And so I was geeking out. One of the things I learned recently that I thought was so super cool is the CTO of OpenAI is a woman, Mira Murati, which I didn't know until over the weekend. Because I always think if I had to name top females in tech, who would they be? And I always default to Sheryl Sandberg, Carly Fiorina, Susan Wojcicki running YouTube. Who are some of the people in your history, in your current, that are really inspiring to you? Men, women, indifferent. >> Sure. I think Boeing is one of the companies where you actually do see a lot of women in leadership roles. I think we're one of the top companies with a number of women executives, actually. Susan Doniz, who's our Chief Information Officer, I believe she's actually slotted to speak at a WiDS event come fall. >> Lisa: Cool. >> So that will be exciting. Susan's actually relatively newer to Boeing in some ways. A Boeing time skill is like three years is still kind of new. (laughs) But she's been around for a while and she's done a lot of inspiring things, I think, for women in the organization. She does a lot with Latino communities and things like that as well. For me personally, you know, when I started at Boeing Ahmad Yaghoobi was one of my mentors and my Technical Lead. He came from Iran during a lot of hard times in the 1980s. His brother actually wrote a memoir, (laughs) which is just a fun, interesting fact. >> Tracy: Oh my God! >> Lisa: Wow! >> And so, I kind of gravitate to people that I can learn from that's not in my sphere, that might make me uncomfortable. >> And you probably don't even think about how many people you're influencing along the way. >> No. >> We just keep going and learning from our mentors and probably lose sight of, "I wonder how many people actually admire me?" And I'm sure there are many that admire you, Rhonda, for what you've done, going from anthropology to archeology. You mentioned before we went live you were really interested in photography. Keep going and really gathering all that breadth 'cause it's only making you more inspiring to people like us. >> Exactly. >> We thank you so much for joining us on the program and sharing a little bit about you and what brought you to WiDS. Thank you so much, Rhonda. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Tracy: Thank you so much for being here. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> Alright. >> For our guests, and for Tracy Zhang, this is Lisa Martin live at Stanford University covering the eighth Annual Women In Data Science Conference. Stick around. Next guest will be here in just a second. (gentle music)

(light music) >> Announcer: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Lisa Martin's been here all week. John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio, banging out all the news. Don't forget to check out siliconangle.com, thecube.net. This is day four, our last segment, winding down. MWC23, super excited to be here. Wayne Duso, friend of theCUBE, VP of engineering from products at AWS is here with Iyad Tarazi, who's the CEO of Federated Wireless. Gents, welcome. >> Good to be here. >> Nice to see you. >> I'm so stoked, Wayne, that we connected before the show. We texted, I'm like, "You're going to be there. I'm going to be there. You got to come on theCUBE." So thank you so much for making time, and thank you for bringing a customer partner, Federated Wireless. Everybody knows AWS. Iyad, tell us about Federated Wireless. >> We're a software and services company out of Arlington, Virginia, right outside of Washington, DC, and we're really focused on this new technology called Shared Spectrum and private wireless for 5G. Think of it as enterprises consuming 5G, the way they used to consume WiFi. >> Is that unrestricted spectrum, or? >> It is managed, organized, interference free, all through cloud platforms. That's how we got to know AWS. We went and got maybe about 300 products from AWS to make it work. Quite sophisticated, highly available, and pristine spectrum worth billions of dollars, but available for people like you and I, that want to build enterprises, that want to make things work. Also carriers, cable companies everybody else that needs it. It's really a new revolution for everyone. >> And that's how you, it got introduced to AWS. Was that through public sector, or just the coincidence that you're in DC >> No, I, well, yes. The center of gravity in the world for spectrum is literally Arlington. You have the DOD spectrum people, you have spectrum people from National Science Foundation, DARPA, and then you have commercial sector, and you have the FCC just an Uber ride away. So we went and found the scientists that are doing all this work, four or five of them, Virginia Tech has an office there too, for spectrum research for the Navy. Come together, let's have a party and make a new model. >> So I asked this, I'm super excited to have you on theCUBE. I sat through the keynotes on Monday. I saw Satya Nadella was in there, Thomas Kurian there was no AWS. I'm like, where's AWS? AWS is everywhere. I mean, you guys are all over the show. I'm like, "Hey, where's the number one cloud?" So you guys have made a bunch of announcements at the show. Everybody's talking about the cloud. What's going on for you guys? >> So we are everywhere, and you know, we've been coming to this show for years. But this is really a year that we can demonstrate that what we've been doing for the IT enterprise, IT people for 17 years, we're now bringing for telcos, you know? For years, we've been, 17 years to be exact, we've been bringing the cloud value proposition, whether it's, you know, cost efficiencies or innovation or scale, reliability, security and so on, to these enterprise IT folks. Now we're doing the same thing for telcos. And so whether they want to build in region, in a local zone, metro area, on-prem with an outpost, at the edge with Snow Family, or with our IoT devices. And no matter where they want to start, if they start in the cloud and they want to move to the edge, or they start in the edge and they want to bring the cloud value proposition, like, we're demonstrating all of that is happening this week. And, and very much so, we're also demonstrating that we're bringing the same type of ecosystem that we've built for enterprise IT. We're bringing that type of ecosystem to the telco companies, with CSPs, with the ISP vendors. We've seen plenty of announcements this week. You know, so on and so forth. >> So what's different, is it, the names are different? Is it really that simple, that you're just basically taking the cloud model into telco, and saying, "Hey, why do all this undifferentiated heavy lifting when we can do it for you? Don't worry about all the plumbing." Is it really that simple? I mean, that straightforward. >> Well, simple is probably not what I'd say, but we can make it straightforward. >> Conceptually. >> Conceptually, yes. Conceptually it is the same. Because if you think about, firstly, we'll just take 5G for a moment, right? The 5G folks, if you look at the architecture for 5G, it was designed to run on a cloud architecture. It was designed to be a set of services that you could partition, and run in different places, whether it's in the region or at the edge. So in many ways it is sort of that simple. And let me give you an example. Two things, the first one is we announced integrated private wireless on AWS, which allows enterprise customers to come to a portal and look at the industry solutions. They're not worried about their network, they're worried about solving a problem, right? And they can come to that portal, they can find a solution, they can find a service provider that will help them with that solution. And what they end up with is a fully validated offering that AWS telco SAS have actually put to its paces to make sure this is a real thing. And whether they get it from a telco, and, and quite frankly in that space, it's SIs such as Federated that actually help our customers deploy those in private environments. So that's an example. And then added to that, we had a second announcement, which was AWS telco network builder, which allows telcos to plan, deploy, and operate at scale telco network capabilities on the cloud, think about it this way- >> As a managed service? >> As a managed service. So think about it this way. And the same way that enterprise IT has been deploying, you know, infrastructure as code for years. Telco network builder allows the telco folks to deploy telco networks and their capabilities as code. So it's not simple, but it is pretty straightforward. We're making it more straightforward as we go. >> Jump in Dave, by the way. He can geek out if you want. >> Yeah, no, no, no, that's good, that's good, that's good. But actually, I'm going to ask an AWS question, but I'm going to ask Iyad the AWS question. So when we, when I hear the word cloud from Wayne, cloud, AWS, typically in people's minds that denotes off-premises. Out there, AWS data center. In the telecom space, yes, of course, in the private 5G space, we're talking about a little bit of a different dynamic than in the public 5G space, in terms of the physical infrastructure. But regardless at the edge, there are things that need to be physically at the edge. Do you feel that AWS is sufficiently, have they removed the H word, hybrid, from the list of bad words you're not allowed to say? 'Cause there was a point in time- >> Yeah, of course. >> Where AWS felt that their growth- >> They'll even say multicloud today, (indistinct). >> No, no, no, no, no. But there was a period of time where, rightfully so, AWS felt that the growth trajectory would be supported solely by net new things off premises. Now though, in this space, it seems like that hybrid model is critical. Do you see AWS being open to the hybrid nature of things? >> Yeah, they're, absolutely. I mean, just to explain from- we're a services company and a solutions company. So we put together solutions at the edge, a smart campus, smart agriculture, a deployment. One of our biggest deployment is a million square feet warehouse automation project with the Marine Corps. >> That's bigger than the Fira. >> Oh yeah, it's bigger, definitely bigger than, you know, a small section of here. It's actually three massive warehouses. So yes, that is the edge. What the cloud is about is that massive amount of efficiency has happened by concentrating applications in data centers. And that is programmability, that is APIs that is solutions, that is applications that can run on it, where people know how to do it. And so all that efficiency now is being ported in a box called the edge. What AWS is doing for us is bringing all the business and technical solutions they had into the edge. Some of the data may send back and forth, but that's actually a smaller piece of the value for us. By being able to bring an AWS package at the edge, we're bringing IoT applications, we're bringing high speed cameras, we're able to integrate with the 5G public network. We're able to bring in identity and devices, we're able to bring in solutions for students, embedded laptops. All of these things that you can do much much faster and cheaper if you are able to tap in the 4,000, 5,000 partners and all the applications and all the development and all the models that AWS team did. By being able to bring that efficiency to the edge why reinvent that? And then along with that, there are partners that you, that help do integration. There are development done to make it hardened, to make the data more secure, more isolated. All of these things will contribute to an edge that truly is a carbon copy of the data center. >> So Wayne, it's AWS, Regardless of where the compute, networking and storage physically live, it's AWS. Do you think that the term cloud will sort of drift away from usage? Because if, look, it's all IT, in this case it's AWS and federated IT working together. How, what's your, it's sort of a obscure question about cloud, because cloud is so integrated. >> You Got this thing about cloud, it's just IT. >> I got thing about cloud too, because- >> You and Larry Ellison. >> Because it's no, no, no, I'm, yeah, well actually there's- >> There's a lot of IT that's not cloud, just say that okay. >> Now, a lot of IT that isn't cloud, but I would say- >> But I'll (indistinct) cloud is an IT tool, and you see AWS obviously with the Snow fill in the blank line of products and outpost type stuff. Fair to say that you're, doesn't matter where it is, it could be AWS if it's on the edge, right? >> Well, you know, everybody wants to define the cloud as what it may have been when it started. But if you look at what it was when it started and what it is today, it is different. But the ability to bring the experience, the AWS experience, the services, the operational experience and all the things that Iyad had been talking about from the region all to all the way to, you know, the IoT device, if you would, that entire continuum. And it doesn't matter where you start. Like if you start in region and you need to bring your value to other places because your customers are asking you to do so, we're enabling that experience where you need to bring it. If you started at the edge, and- but you want to build cloud value, you know, whether it's again, cost efficiency, scalability, AI, ML or analytics into those capabilities, you can start at the edge with the same APIs, with the same service, the same capabilities, and you can build that value in right from the get go. You don't build this bifurcation or many separations and try to figure out how do I glue them together? There is no gluing together. So if you think of cloud as being elastic, scalable flexible, where you can drive innovation, it's the same exact model on the continuum. And you can start at either end, it's up to you as a customer. >> And I think if, the key to me is the ecosystem. I mean, if you can do for this industry what you've done for the technology- enterprise technology business from an ecosystem standpoint, you know everybody talks about flywheel, but that gives you like the massive flywheel. I don't know what the ratio is, but it used to be for every dollar spent on a VMware license, $15 is spent in the ecosystem. I've never heard similar ratios in the AWS ecosystem, but it's, I go to reinvent and I'm like, there's some dollars being- >> That's a massive ecosystem. >> (indistinct). >> And then, and another thing I'll add is Jose Maria Alvarez, who's the chairman of Telefonica, said there's three pillars of the future-ready telco, low latency, programmable networks, and he said cloud and edge. So they recognizing cloud and edge, you know, low latency means you got to put the compute and the data, the programmable infrastructure was invented by Amazon. So what's the strategy around the telco edge? >> So, you know, at the end, so those are all great points. And in fact, the programmability of the network was a big theme in the show. It was a huge theme. And if you think about the cloud, what is the cloud? It's a set of APIs against a set of resources that you use in whatever way is appropriate for what you're trying to accomplish. The network, the telco network becomes a resource. And it could be described as a resource. We, I talked about, you know, network as in code, right? It's same infrastructure in code, it's telco infrastructure as code. And that code, that infrastructure, is programmable. So this is really, really important. And in how you build the ecosystem around that is no different than how we built the ecosystem around traditional IT abstractions. In fact, we feel that really the ecosystem is the killer app for 5G. You know, the killer app for 4G, data of sorts, right? We started using data beyond simple SMS messages. So what's the killer app for 5G? It's building this ecosystem, which includes the CSPs, the ISVs, all of the partners that we bring to the table that can drive greater value. It's not just about cost efficiency. You know, you can't save your way to success, right? At some point you need to generate greater value for your customers, which gives you better business outcomes, 'cause you can monetize them, right? The ecosystem is going to allow everybody to monetize 5G. >> 5G is like the dot connector of all that. And then developers come in on top and create new capabilities >> And how different is that than, you know, the original smartphones? >> Yeah, you're right. So what do you guys think of ChatGPT? (indistinct) to Amazon? Amazon turned the data center into an API. It's like we're visioning this world, and I want to ask that technologist, like, where it's turning resources into human language interfaces. You know, when you see that, you play with ChatGPT at all, or I know you guys got your own. >> So I won't speak directly to ChatGPT. >> No, don't speak from- >> But if you think about- >> Generative AI. >> Yeah generative AI is important. And, and we are, and we have been for years, in this space. Now you've been talking to AWS for a long time, and we often don't talk about things we don't have yet. We don't talk about things that we haven't brought to market yet. And so, you know, you'll often hear us talk about something, you know, a year from now where others may have been talking about it three years earlier, right? We will be talking about this space when we feel it's appropriate for our customers and our partners. >> You have talked about it a little bit, Adam Selipsky went on an interview with myself and John Furrier in October said you watch, you know, large language models are going to be enormous and I know you guys have some stuff that you're working on there. >> It's, I'll say it's exciting. >> Yeah, I mean- >> Well proof point is, Siri is an idiot compared to Alexa. (group laughs) So I trust one entity to come up with something smart. >> I have conversations with Alexa and Siri, and I won't judge either one. >> You don't need, you could be objective on that one. I definitely have a preference. >> Are the problems you guys solving in this space, you know, what's unique about 'em? What are they, can we, sort of, take some examples here (indistinct). >> Sure, the main theme is that the enterprise is taking control. They want to have their own networks. They want to focus on specific applications, and they want to build them with a skeleton crew. The one IT person in a warehouse want to be able to do it all. So what's unique about them is that they're now are a lot of automation on robotics, especially in warehousing environment agriculture. There simply aren't enough people in these industries, and that required precision. And so you need all that integration to make it work. People also want to build these networks as they want to control it. They want to figure out how do we actually pick this team and migrate it. Maybe just do the front of the house first. Maybe it's a security team that monitor the building, maybe later on upgrade things that use to open doors and close doors and collect maintenance data. So that ability to pick what you want to do from a new processors is really important. And then you're also seeing a lot of public-private network interconnection. That's probably the undercurrent of this show that haven't been talked about. When people say private networks, they're also talking about something called neutral host, which means I'm going to build my own network, but I want it to work, my Verizon (indistinct) need to work. There's been so much progress, it's not done yet. So much progress about this bring my own network concept, and then make sure that I'm now interoperating with the public network, but it's my domain. I can create air gaps, I can create whatever security and policy around it. That is probably the power of 5G. Now take all of these tiny networks, big networks, put them all in one ecosystem. Call it the Amazon marketplace, call it the Amazon ecosystem, that's 5G. It's going to be tremendous future. >> What does the future look like? We're going to, we just determined we're going to be orchestrating the network through human language, okay? (group laughs) But seriously, what's your vision for the future here? You know, both connectivity and cloud are on on a continuum. It's, they've been on a continuum forever. They're going to continue to be on a continuum. That being said, those continuums are coming together, right? They're coming together to bring greater value to a greater set of customers, and frankly all of us. So, you know, the future is now like, you know, this conference is the future, and if you look at what's going on, it's about the acceleration of the future, right? What we announced this week is really the acceleration of listening to customers for the last handful of years. And, we're going to continue to do that. We're going to continue to bring greater value in the form of solutions. And that's what I want to pick up on from the prior question. It's not about the network, it's not about the cloud, it's about the solutions that we can provide the customers where they are, right? And if they're on their mobile phone or they're in their factory floor, you know, they're looking to accelerate their business. They're looking to accelerate their value. They're looking to create greater safety for their employees. That's what we can do with these technologies. So in fact, when we came out with, you know, our announcement for integrated private wireless, right? It really was about industry solutions. It really isn't about, you know, the cloud or the network. It's about how you can leverage those technologies, that continuum, to deliver you value. >> You know, it's interesting you say that, 'cause again, when we were interviewing Adam Selipsky, everybody, you know, all journalists analysts want to know, how's Adam Selipsky going to be different from Andy Jassy, what's the, what's he going to do to Amazon to change? And he said, listen, the real answer is Amazon has changed. If Andy Jassy were here, we'd be doing all, you know, pretty much the same things. Your point about 17 years ago, the cloud was S3, right, and EC2. Now it's got to evolve to be solutions. 'Cause if that's all you're selling, is the bespoke services, then you know, the future is not as bright as the past has been. And so I think it's key to look for what are those outcomes or solutions that customers require and how you're going to meet 'em. And there's a lot of challenges. >> You continue to build value on the value that you've brought, and you don't lose sight of why that value is important. You carry that value proposition up the stack, but the- what you're delivering, as you said, becomes maybe a bigger or or different. >> And you are getting more solution oriented. I mean, you're not hardcore solutions yet, but we're seeing more and more of that. And that seems to be a trend. We've even seen in the database world, making things easier, connecting things. Not really an abstraction layer, which is sort of antithetical to your philosophy, but it creates a similar outcome in terms of simplicity. Yeah, you're smiling 'cause you guys always have a different angle, you know? >> Yeah, we've had this conversation. >> It's right, it's, Jassy used to say it's okay to be misunderstood. >> That's Right. For a long time. >> Yeah, right, guys, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. I'm so glad we could make this happen. >> It's always good. Thank you. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, Dave Nicholson, for Lisa Martin, Dave Vellante, John Furrier in the Palo Alto studio. We're here at the Fira, wrapping out MWC23. Keep it right there, thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: theCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) >> Hey, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. My name is Dave Vellante. I'm here with David Nicholson, day four of MWC '23. Show's winding down a little bit, but it's still pretty packed here. Lot of innovation, planes, trains, automobiles, and we're talking 5G all week, private networks, connected breweries. It's super exciting. Really happy to have Warren Jackson here as the Edge Gateway Product Technologist at Dell Technologies, and Scott Waller, the CTO of the 5G Open Innovation Lab. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> Really interesting stories that we're going to talk about. Let's start, Scott, with you, what is the Open Innovation Lab? >> So it was hatched three years ago. Ideated about a bunch of guys from Microsoft who ran startup ventures program, started the developers program over at Microsoft, if you're familiar with MSDN. And they came three years ago and said, how does CSPs working with someone like T-Mobile who's in our backyard, I'm from Seattle. How do they monetize the edge? You need a developer ecosystem of applications and use cases. That's always been the thing. The carriers are building the networks, but where's the ecosystem of startups? So we built a startup ecosystem that is sponsored by partners, Dell being one sponsor, Intel, Microsoft, VMware, Aspirant, you name it. The enterprise folks who are also in the connectivity business. And with that, we're not like a Y Combinator or a Techstars where it's investment first and it's all about funding. It's all about getting introductions from a startup who might have a VR or AI type of application or observability for 5G slicing, and bring that in front of the Microsoft's of the world, or the Intel's and the Dell's of the world that they might not have the capabilities to do it because they're still a small little startup with an MVP. So we really incubate. We're the connectors and build a network. We've had 101 startups over the last three years. They've raised over a billion dollars. And it's really valuable to our partners like T-Mobile and Dell, et cetera, where we're bringing in folks like Expedo and GenXComm and Firecell. Start up private companies that are around here they were cohorts from our program in the past. >> That's awesome because I've often, I mean, I've seen Dell get into this business and I'm like, wow, they've done a really good job of finding these guys. I wonder what the pipeline is. >> We're trying to create the pipeline for the entire industry, whether it's 5G on the edge for the CSPs, or it's for private enterprise networks. >> Warren, what's this cool little thing you got here? >> Yeah, so this is very unique in the Dell portfolio. So when people think of Dell, they think of servers laptops, et cetera. But what this does is it's designed to be deployed at the edge in harsh environments and it allows customers to do analytics, data collection at the edge. And what's unique about it is it's got an extended temperature range. There's no fan in this and there's lots of ports on it for data ingestion. So this is a smaller box Edge Gateway 3200. This is the product that we're using in the brewery. And then we have a bigger brother of this, the Edge Gateway 5200. So the value of it, you can scale depending on what your edge compute requirements are at the edge. >> So tell us about the brewery story. And you covered it, I know you were in the Dell booth, but it's basically an analog brewery. They're taking measurements and temperatures and then writing it down and then entering it in and somebody from your company saw it and said, "We can help you with this problem." Explain the story. >> Yeah, so Scott and I did a walkthrough of the brewery back in November timeframe. >> It's in Framingham, Mass. >> Framingham, Mass, correct. And basically, we talked to him, and we said, what keeps you guys up at night? What's a problem that we can solve? Very simple, a kind of a lower budget, didn't have a lot money to spend on it, but what problem can we solve that will realize great benefit for you? So we looked at their fermentation process, which was completely analog. Somebody was walking around with a clipboard looking at analog gauges. And what we did is we digitized that process. So what this did for them rather than being completely reactive, and by the time they realized there was something going wrong with the fermentation process, it's too late. A batch of scrap. This allowed them to be proactive. So anytime, anywhere on the tablet or a phone, they can see if that fermentation process is going out of range and do something about it before the batch gets scrapped. >> Okay. Amazing. And Scott, you got a picture of this workflow here? >> Yeah, actually this is the final product. >> Explain that. >> As Warren mentioned, the data is actually residing in the industrial side of the network So we wanted to keep the IT/OT separation, which is critical on the factory floor. And so all the data is brought in from the sensors via digital connection once it's converted and into the edge gateway. Then there's a snapshot of it using Telit deviceWISE, their dashboarding application, that is decoding all the digital readings, putting them in a nice dashboard. And then when we gave them, we realized another problem was they're using cheap little Chromebooks that they spill beer on once a week and throw them out. That's why they bought the cheap ones 'cause they go through them so fast. So we got a Dell Latitude Rugged notebook. This is a brand new tablet, but they have the dashboarding software. So no matter if they're out there on the floor, but because the data resides there on the factory they have access to be able to change the parameters. This one's in the maturation cycle. This one's in the crashing cycle where they're bringing the temperature back down, stopping the fermentation process, getting it ready to go to the canning side of the house. >> And they're doing all that from this dashboard. >> They're doing all from the dashboard. They also have a giant screen that we put up there that in the floor instead of walking a hundred yards back behind a whole bunch of machinery equipment from a safety perspective, now they just look up on the screen and go, "Oh, that's red. That's out of range." They're actually doing a bunch of cleaning and a bunch of other things right now, too. So this is real time from Boston. >> Dave: Oh okay. >> Scott: This is actually real time from Boston. >> I'm no hop master, but I'm looking at these things flashing at me and I'm thinking something's wrong with my beer. >> We literally just lit this up last week. So we're still tweaking a few things, but they're also learning around. This is a new capability they never had. Oh, we have the ability to alert and monitor at different processes with different batches, different brews, different yeast types. Then now they're also training and learning. And we're going to turn that into eventually a product that other breweries might be able to use. >> So back to the kind of nuts and bolts of the system. The device that you have here has essentially wifi antennas on the back. >> Warren: Correct. >> Pull that up again if you would, please. >> Now I've seen this, just so people are clear, there are also paddle 5G antennas that go on the other side. >> Correct. >> That's sort of the connection from the 5G network that then gets transmogrified, technical term guys, into wifi so the devices that are physically connected to the brew vats, don't know what they're called. >> Fermentation tanks. >> Fermentation tanks, thank you. Those are wifi. That's a wifi signal that's going into this. Is that correct? >> Scott: No. >> No, it's not. >> It's a hard wire. >> Okay, okay. >> But, you're right. This particular gateway. >> It could be wifi if it's hard wire. >> It could be, yes. Could be any technology really. >> This particular gateway is not outfitted with 5G, but something that was very important in this application was to isolate the IT network, which is on wifi and physically connected from the OT network, which is the 5G connection. So we're sending the data directly from the gateway up to the cloud. The two partners that we worked with on this project were ifm, big sensor manufacturer that actually did the wired sensors into an industrial network called IO-Link. So they're physically wired into the gateway and then in the gateway we have a solution from our partner Telit that has deviceWISE software that actually takes the data in, runs the analytics on it, the logic, and then visualizes that data locally on those panels and also up to their cloud, which is what we're looking at. So they can look at it locally, they're in the plant and then up in the cloud on a phone or a tablet, whatever, when they're at home. >> We're talking about a small business here. I don't know how many employees they have, but it's not thousands. And I love that you're talking about an IT network and an OT network. And so they wanted, it is very common when we talk about industrial internet of things use cases, but we're talking about a tiny business here. >> Warren: Correct. >> They wanted to separate those networks because of cost, because of contention. Explain why. >> Yeah, just because, I mean, they're running their ERP system, their payroll, all of their kind of the way they run their business on their IT network and you don't want to have the same traffic out on the factory floor on that network, so it was pretty important. And the other thing is we really, one of the things that we didn't want to do in this project is interrupt their production process at all. So we installed this entire system in two days. They didn't have to shut down, they didn't have to stop. We didn't have to interrupt their process at all. It was like we were invisible there and we spun the thing up and within two days, very simple, easy, but tremendous value for their business. >> Talk about new markets here. I mean, it's like any company that's analog that needs to go digital. It's like 99% of the companies on the planet. What are you guys seeing out there in terms of the types of examples beyond breweries? >> Yeah, I could talk to that. So I spent a lot of time over the last couple years running my own little IoT company and a lot of it being in agriculture. So like in Washington state, 70% of the world's hops is actually grown in Washington state. It's my hometown. But in the Ag producing regions, there's lack of connectivity. So there's interest in private networks because the carriers aren't necessarily deploying it. But because we have the vast amount of hops there's a lot of IPAs, a lot of hoppy IPAs that come out of Seattle. And with that, there's a ton of craft breweries that are about the same size, some are a little larger. Anheuser-Busch and InBev and Heineken they've got great IoT platforms. They've done it. They're mass scale, they have to digitize. But the smaller shops, they don't, when we talk about IT/OT separation, they're not aware of that. They think it's just, I get local broadband and I get wifi and one hotspot inside my facility and it works. So a little bit of it was the education. I have got years in IT/OT security in my background so that education and we come forward with a solution that actually does that for them. And now they're aware of it. So now when they're asking questions of other vendors that are trying to sell them some type of solution, they're inherently aware of what should be done so they're not vulnerable to ransomware attacks, et cetera. So it's known as the Purdue Model. >> Well, what should they do? >> We came in and keep it completely separated and educated them because in the end too we'll build a design guide and a starter kit out of this that other brewers can use. Because I've toured dozens of breweries in Washington, the exact same scenario, analog gauges, analog process, very manual. And in the end, when you ask the brewer, what do they want out of this? It keeps them up at night because if the temperature goes out of range, because the chiller fails, >> They ruined. >> That's $30,000 lost in beer. That's a lot to a small business. However, it's also once they start digitizing the data and to Warren's point, it's read-only. We're not changing any of the process. We augmented on top of their existing systems. We didn't change their process. But now they have the ability to look at the data and see batch to batch consistency. Quality doesn't always mean best, it means consistency from batch to batch. Every beer from exhibit A from yesterday to two months from now of the same style of beer should be the same taste, flavor, boldness, et cetera. This is giving them the insights on it. >> It's like St. Louis Buds, when we were kids. We would buy the St. Louis Buds 'cause they tasted better than the Merrimack Buds. And then Budweiser made them all the same. >> Must be an East coast thing. >> It's an old guy thing, Dave. You weren't born yet. >> I was in high school. Yeah, I was in high school. >> We like the hops. >> We weren't 21. Do me a favor, clarify OT versus IT. It's something we talk about all the time, but not everyone's familiar with that separation. Define OT for me. >> It's really the factory floor. You got IT systems that are ERP systems, billing, you're getting your emails, stuff like that. Where the ransomware usually gets infected in. The OT side is the industrial control network. >> David: What's the 'O' stand for? >> Operation. >> David: Operation? >> Yeah, the operations side. >> 'Cause some people will think objects 'cause we think internet of things. >> The industrial operations, think of it that way. >> But in a sense those are things that are connected. >> And you think of that as they are the safety systems as well. So a machine, if someone doesn't push the stop button, you'd think if there's a lot of traffic on that network, it isn't guaranteed that that stop button actually stops that blade from coming down, someone's going to lose their arm. So it's very tied to safety, reliability, low latency. It is crafted in design that it never touches the internet inherently without having to go through a security gateway which is what we did. >> You mentioned the large companies like InBev, et cetera. You're saying they're already there. Are they not part of your target market? Or are there ways that you can help them? Is this really more of a small to mid-size company? >> For this particular solution, I think so, yeah. Because the cost to entry is low. I mean, you talk about InBev, they have millions of dollars of budgets to spend on OT. So they're completely automated from top to bottom. But these little craft brewers, which they're everywhere in the US. Vermont, Washington state, they're completely manual. A lot of these guys just started in their garage. And they just scaled up and they got a cult kind of following around their beers. One thing that we found here this week, when you talk around edge and 5G and beer, those things get people excited. In our booth we're serving beer, and all these kind of topics, it brings people together. >> And it lets the little guy compete more effectively with the big giants. >> Correct. >> And how do you do more with less as the little guy is kind of the big thing and to Warren's point, we have folks come up and say, "Great, this is for beer, but what about wine? What about the fermentation process of wine?" Same materials in the end. A vessel of some sort, maybe it's stainless steel. The clamps are the same, the sensors are the same. The parameters like temperature are key in any type of fermentation. We had someone talking about olive oil and using that. It's the same sanitary beverage style equipment. We grabbed sensors that were off the shelf and then we integrated them in and used the set of platforms that we could. How do we rapidly enable these guys at the lowest possible cost with stuff that's at the shelf. And there's four different companies in the solution. >> We were having a conversation with T-Mobile a little earlier and she mentioned the idea of this sounding scary. And this is a great example of showing that in fact, at a relatively small scale, this technology makes a lot of sense. So from that perspective, of course you can implement private 5G networks at an industrial scale with tens of millions of dollars of investment. But what about all of the other things below? And that seems to be a perfect example. >> Yeah, correct. And it's one of the things with the gateway and having flexibility the way Dell did a great job of putting really good modems in it. It had a wide spectrum range of what bands they support. So being able to say, at a larger facility, I mean, if Heineken wants to deploy something like this, oh, heck yeah, they probably could do it. And they might have a private 5G network, but let's say T-Mobile offers a private offering on their public via a slice. It's easy to connect that radio to it. You just change the sims. >> Is that how the CSPs fit here? How are they monetized? >> Yeah, correct. So one of our partners is T-Mobile and so we're working with them. We've got other telco partners that are coming on board in our lab. And so we'll do the same thing. We're going to take this back and put it in the lab and offer it up as others because the baseline building blocks or Lego blocks per se can be used in a bunch of different industries. It's really that starter point of giving folks the idea of what's possible. >> So small manufacturing, agriculture you mentioned, any other sort of use cases we should tune into? >> I think it's environmental monitoring, all of that stuff, I see it in IoT deployments all over the world. Just the simple starter kits 'cause a farmer doesn't want to get sold a solution, a platform, where he's got to hire a bunch of coders and partner with the big carriers. He just wants something that works. >> Another use case that we see a lot, a high cost in a lot of these places is the cost of energy. And a lot of companies don't know what they're spending on electricity. So a very simple energy monitoring system like that, it's a really good ROI. I'm going to spend five or $10,000 on a system like this, but I'm going to save $20,000 over a year 'cause I'm able to see, have visibility into that data. That's a lot of what this story's about, just giving visibility into the process. >> It's very cool, and like you said, it gets people excited. Is it a big market? How do you size it? Is it a big TAM? >> Yeah, so one thing that Dell brings to the table in this space is people are buying their laptops, their servers and whatnot from Dell and companies are comfortable in doing business with Dell because of our model direct to customer and whatnot. So our ability to bring a device like this to the OT space and have them have that same user experience they have with laptops and our client products in a ruggedized solution like this and bring a lot of partners to the table makes it easy for our customers to implement this across all kinds of industries. >> So we're talking to billions, tens of billions. Do we know how big this market is? What's the TAM? I mean, come on, you work for Dell. You have to do a TAM analysis. >> Yes, no, yeah. I mean, it really is in the billions. The market is huge for this one. I think we just tapped into it. We're kind of focused in on the brewery piece of it and the liquor piece of it, but the possibilities are endless. >> Yeah, that's tip of the spear. Guys, great story. >> It's scalable. I think the biggest thing, just my final feedback is working and partnering with Dell is we got something as small as this edge gateway that I can run a Packet Core on and run a 5G standalone node and then have one of the small little 5G radios out there. And I've got these deployed in a farm. Give the farmer an idea of what's possible, give him a unit on his tractor, and now he can do something that, we're providing connectivity he had never had before. But as we scale up, we've got the big brother to this. When we scale up from that, we got the telco size units that we can put. So it's very scalable. It's just a great suite of offerings. >> Yeah, outstanding. Guys, thanks for sharing the story. Great to have you on theCUBE. >> Good to be with you today. >> Stop by for beer later. >> You know it. All right, Dave Vellante for Dave Nicholson and the entire CUBE team, we're here live at the Fira in Barcelona MWC '23 day four. Keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: The cube's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies, creating technologies that drive human progress. (upbeat music) (background indistinct chatter) >> Good morning from Barcelona, everyone. It's theCUBE live at MWC23, day three of our four days of coverage. Lisa Martin here with Dave Nicholson. Dave, we have had some great conversations. Can't believe it's day three already. Anything sticking out at you from a thematic perspective that really caught your eye the last couple days? >> I guess I go back to kind of our experience with sort of the generalized world of information technology and a lot of the parallels between what's been happening in other parts of the economy and what's happening in the telecom space now. So it helps me understand some of the complexity when I tie it back to things that I'm aware of >> A lot of complexity, but a big ecosystem that's growing. We're going to be talking more about the ecosystem next and what they're doing to really enable customers CSPs to deliver services. We've got two guests here, Tammy Wyman joins us the Global head of Partners Telco at AWS. And Kurt Schaubach, CTO of Federated Wireless. Welcome to theCUBE Guys. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Great to have you here, day three. Lots of announcements, lots of news at MWC. But Tammy, there's been a lot of announcements from partners with AWS this week. Talk to us a little bit more about first of all, the partner program and then let's unpack some of those announcements. One of them is with Federated Wireless. >> Sure. Yeah. So AWS created the partner program 10 years ago when they really started to understand the value of bringing together the ecosystem. So, I think we're starting to see how this is becoming a reality. So now we 100,000 partners later, 150 countries, 70% of those partners are outside of the US. So truly the global nature and partners being ISVs, GSIs. And then in the telco space, we're actually looking at how we help CSBs become partners of AWS and bring new revenue streams. So that's how we start having the discussions around Federated Wireless. >> Talk a little bit about Federated Wireless, Kurt, give the audience an overview of what you guys are doing and then maybe give us some commentary on the partnership. >> Sure. So we're a shared spectrum and private wireless company, and we actually started working with AWS about five years ago to take this model that we developed to perfect the use of shared spectrum to enable enterprise communications and bring the power of 5G to the enterprise to bring it to all of the AWS customers and partners. So through that now through we're one of the partner network participants. We're working very closely with the AWS team on bringing this, really unique form of connectivity to all sorts of different enterprise use cases from solving manufacturing and warehouse logistics issues to providing connectivity to mines, enhancing the experience for students on a university campus. So it's a really exciting partnership. Everything that we deliver on an end-to-end basis from design deployment to bringing the infrastructure on-prem, all runs on AWS. (background indistinct chatter) >> So a lot of the conversations that we've had sort of start with this concept of the radio access network and frankly in at least the public domain cellular sites. And so all of a sudden it's sort of grounded in this physical reality of these towers with these boxes of equipment on the tower, at the base of the tower, connected to other things. How does AWS and Federated Wireless, where do you fit in that model in terms of equipment at the base of a tower versus what having that be off-premises in some way or another. Kind of give us more of a flavor for the kind of physical reality of what you guys are doing? >> Yeah, I'll start. >> Yeah, Tammy. >> I'll hand it over to the real expert but from an AWS perspective, what we're finding is really I don't know if it's even a convergence or kind of a delaying of the network. So customers are, they don't care if they're on Wi-Fi if they're on public spectrum, if they're on private spectrum, what they want are networks that are able to talk to each other and to provide the right connectivity at the right time and with the right pricing model. So by moving to the cloud that allows us that flexibility to be able to offer the quality of service and to be able to bring in a larger ecosystem of partners as with the networks are almost disaggregated. >> So does the AWS strategy focus solely on things that are happening in, say, AWS locations or AWS data centers? Or is AWS also getting into the arena of what I would refer to as an Outpost in an AWS parlance where physical equipment that's running a stack might actually also be located physically where the communications towers are? What does that mix look like in terms of your strategy? >> Yeah, certainly as customers are looking at hybrid cloud environments, we started looking at how we can use Outpost as part of the network. So, we've got some great use cases where we're taking Outpost into the edge of operators networks, and really starting to have radio in the cloud. We've launched with Dish earlier, and now we're starting to see some other announcements that we've made with Nokia about having ran in the cloud as well. So using Outpost, that's one of our key strategies. It creates, again, a lot of flexibility for the hybrid cloud environment and brings a lot of that compute power to the edge of the network. >> Let's talk about some of the announcements. Tammy was reading that AWS is expanding, its telecom and 5g, private 5G network support. You've also unveiled the AWS Telco Network Builder service. Talk about that, who that's targeted for. What does an operator do with AWS on this? Or maybe you guys can talk about that together. >> Sure. Would you like to start? I can talk. All right. So from the network builder, it's aimed at the, I would say the persona that it's aimed at would be the network engineer within the CSPs. And there was a bit of a difficulty when you want to design a telco network on AWS versus the way that the network engineers would traditionally design. So I'm going to call them protocols, but you know I can imagine saying, "I really want to build this on the cloud, but they're making me move away from my typical way that I design a network and move it into a cloud world." So what we did was really kind of create this template saying, "You can build the network as you always do and we are going to put the magic behind it to translate it into a cloud world." So just really facilitating and taking some of the friction out of the building of the network. >> What was the catalyst for that? I think Dish and Swisscom you've been working with but talk about the catalyst for doing that and how it's facilitating change because part of that's change management with how network engineers actually function and how they work. >> Absolutely, yeah. And we're looking, we listen to customers and we're trying to understand what are those friction points? What would make it easier? And that was one that we heard consistently. So we wanted to apply a bit of our experience and the way that we're able to use data translate that using code so that you're building a network in your traditional way, and then it kind of spits out what's the formula to build the network in the cloud. >> Got it. Kurt, talk about, yeah, I saw that there was just an announcement that Federated Wireless made JBG Smith. Talk to us more about that. What will federated help them to create and how are you all working together? >> Sure. So JBG Smith is the exclusive redeveloper of an area just on the other side of the Potomac from Washington DC called National Landing. And it's about half the size of Manhattan. So it's an enormous area that's getting redeveloped. It's the home of Amazon's new HQ two location. And JBG Smith is investing in addition to the commercial real estate, digital place making a place where people live, work, play, and connect. And part of that is bringing an enhanced level of connectivity to people's homes, their residents, the enterprise, and private wireless is a key component of that. So when we talk about private wireless, what we're doing with AWS is giving an enterprise the freedom to operate a network independent of a mobile network operator. So that means everything from the ran to the core to the applications that run on this network are sort of within the domain of the enterprise merging 5G and edge compute and driving new business outcomes. That's really the most important thing. We can talk a lot about 5G here at MWC about what the enterprise really cares about are new business outcomes how do they become more efficient? And that's really what private wireless helps enable. >> So help us connect the dots. When we talk about private wireless we've definitely been in learning mode here. Well, I'll speak for myself going around and looking at some of the exhibits and seeing how things work. And I know that I wasn't necessarily a 100% clear on this connection between a 5G private wireless network today and where Wi-Fi still comes into play. So if I am a new resident in this area, happily living near the amazing new presence of AWS on the East coast, and I want to use my mobile device how am I connected into that private wireless network? What does that look like as a practical matter? >> So that example that you've just referred to is really something that we enable through neutral host. So in fact, what we're able to do through this private network is also create carrier connectivity. Basically create a pipe almost for the carriers to be able to reach a consumer device like that. A lot of private wireless is also driving business outcomes with enterprises. So work that we're doing, like for example, with the Cal Poly out in California, for example is to enable a new 5G innovation platform. So this is driving all sorts of new 5G research and innovation with the university, new applications around IoT. And they need the ability to do that indoors, outdoors in a way that's sort of free from the domain of connectivity to a a mobile network operator and having the freedom and flexibility to do that, merging that with edge compute. Those are some really important components. We're also doing a lot of work in things like warehouses. Think of a warehouse as being this very complex RF environment. You want to bring robotics you want to bring better inventory management and Wi-Fi just isn't an effective means of providing really reliable indoor coverage. You need more secure networks you need lower latency and the ability to move more data around again, merging new applications with edge compute and that's where private wireless really shines. >> So this is where we do the shout out to my daughter Rachel Nicholson, who is currently a junior at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. Rachel, get plenty of sleep and get your homework done. >> Lisa: She better be studying. >> I held up my mobile device and I should have said full disclosure, we have spotty cellular service where I live. So I think of this as a Wi-Fi connected device, in fact. So maybe I confuse the issue at least. >> Tammy, talk to us a little bit about the architecture from an AWS perspective that is enabling JBG Smith, Cal Poly is this, we're talking an edge architecture, but give us a little bit more of an understanding of what that actually technically looks like. >> Alright, I would love to pass this one over to Kurt. >> Okay. >> So I'm sorry, just in terms of? >> Wanting to understand the AWS architecture this is an edge based architecture hosted on what? On AWS snow, application storage. Give us a picture of what that looks like. >> Right. So I mean, the beauty of this is the simplicity in it. So we're able to bring an AWS snowball, snow cone, edge appliance that runs a pack of core. We're able to run workloads on that locally so some applications, but we also obviously have the ability to bring that out to the public cloud. So depending on what the user application is, we look at anything from the AWS snow family to Outpost and sort of develop templates or solutions depending on what the customer workloads demand. But the innovation that's happened, especially around the pack core and how we can make that so compact and able to run on such a capable appliance is really powerful. >> Yeah, and I will add that I think the diversification of the different connectivity modules that we have a lot of them have been developed because of the needs from the telco industry. So the adaptation of Outpost to run into the edge, the snow family. So the telco industry is really leading a lot of the developments that AWS takes to market in the end because of the nature of having to have networks that are able to disconnect, ruggedize environments, the latency, the numerous use cases that our telco customers are facing to take to their end customers. So like it really allows us to adapt and bring the right network to the right place and the right environment. And even for the same customer they may have different satellite offices or remote sites that need different connectivity needs. >> Right. So it sounds like that collaboration between AWS and telco is quite strong and symbiotic, it sounds like. >> Tammy: Absolutely. >> So we talked about a number of the announcements in our final minutes. I want to talk about integrated private wireless that was just announced last week. What is that? Who are the users going to be? And I understand T-Mobile is involved there. >> Yes. Yeah. So this is a program that we launched based on what we're seeing is kind of a convergence of the ecosystem of private wireless. So we wanted to be able to create a program which is offering spectrum that is regulated as well. And we wanted to offer that on in a more of a multi country environment. So we launched with T-Mobile, Telephonica, KDDI and a number of other succeed, as a start to start being able to bring the regulated spectrum into the picture and as well other ISVs who are going to be bringing unique use cases so that when you look at, well we've got the connectivity into this environment, the mine or the port, what are those use cases? You know, so ISVs who are providing maybe asset tracking or some of the health and safety and we bring them in as part of the program. And I think an important piece is the actual discoverability of this, because when you think about that if you're a buyer on the other side, like where do I start? So we created a portal with this group of ISVs and partners so that one could come together and kind of build what are my needs? And then they start picking through and then the ecosystem would be recommended to them. So it's a really a way to discover and to also procure a private wireless network much more easily than could be done in the past. >> That's a great service >> And we're learning a lot from the market. And what we're doing together in our partnership is through a lot of these sort of ruggedized remote location deployments that we're doing, mines, clearing underbrush and forest forest areas to prevent forest fires. There's a tremendous number of applications for private wireless where sort of the conventional carrier networks just aren't prioritized to serve. And you need a different level of connectivity. Privacy is big concern as well. Data security. Keeping data on premise, which is a another big application that we were able to drive through these edge compute platforms. >> Awesome. Guys, thank you so much for joining us on the program talking about what AWS Federated are doing together and how you're really helping to evolve the telco landscape and make life ultimately easier for all the Nicholsons to connect over Wi-Fi, our private 5g. >> Keep us in touch. And from two Californians you had us when you said clear the brush, prevent fires. >> You did. Thanks guys, it was a pleasure having you on the program. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Our pleasure. For our guest and for Dave Nicholson, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE Live from our third day of coverage of MWC23. Stick around Dave and I will be right back with our next guest. (upbeat music)

(gentle music) >> Hello, everyone. Welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE here, in our Palo Alto Studios. We're featuring OctoML. I'm with the CEO, Luis Ceze. Chief Executive Officer, Co-founder of OctoML. I'm John Furrier of theCUBE. Thanks for joining us today. Luis, great to see you. Last time we spoke was at "re:MARS" Amazon's event. Kind of a joint event between (indistinct) and Amazon, kind of put a lot together. Great to see you. >> Great to see you again, John. I really have good memories of that interview. You know, that was definitely a great time. Great to chat with you again. >> The world of ML and AI, machine learning and AI is really hot. Everyone's talking about it. It's really great to see that advance. So I'm looking forward to this conversation but before we get started, introduce who you are in OctoML. >> Sure. I'm Luis Ceze, Co-founder and CEO at OctoML. I'm also professor of Computer Science at University of Washington. You know, OctoML grew out of our efforts on the Apache CVM project, which is a compiler in runtime system that enables folks to run machine learning models in a broad set of harder in the Edge and in the Cloud very efficiently. You know, we grew that project and grew that community, definitely saw there was something to pain point there. And then we built OctoML, OctoML is about three and a half years old now. And the mission, the company is to enable customers to deploy models very efficiently in the Cloud. And make them, you know, run. Do it quickly, run fast, and run at a low cost, which is something that's especially timely right now. >> I like to point out also for the folks 'casue they should know that you're also a professor in the Computer Science department at University of Washington. A great program there. This is a really an inflection point with AI machine learning. The computer science industry has been waiting for decades to advance AI with all this new cloud computing, all the hardware and silicon advancements, GPUs. This is the perfect storm. And you know, this the computer science now we we're seeing an acceleration. Can you share your view, and you're obviously a professor in that department but also, an entrepreneur. This is a great time for computer science. Explain why. >> Absolutely, yeah, no. Just like the confluence of you know, advances in what, you know, computers can do as devices to computer information. Plus, you know, advances in AI that enable applications that you know, we thought it was highly futuristic and now it's just right there today. You know, AI that can generate photo realistic images from descriptions, you know, can write text that's pretty good. Can help augment, you know, human creativity in a really meaningful way. So you see the confluence of capabilities and the creativity of humankind into new applications is just extremely exciting, both from a researcher point of view as well as an entrepreneur point of view, right. >> What should people know about these large language models we're seeing with ChatGPT and how Google has got a lot of work going on that air. There's been a lot of work recently. What's different now about these models, and why are they so popular and effective now? What's the difference between now, and say five years ago, that makes it more- >> Oh, yeah. It's a huge inflection on their capabilities, I always say like emergent behavior, right? So as these models got more complex and our ability to train and deploy them, you know, got to this point... You know, they really crossed a threshold into doing things that are truly surprising, right? In terms of generating, you know, exhalation for things generating tax, summarizing tax, expending tax. And you know, exhibiting what to some may look like reasoning. They're not quite reasoning fundamentally. They're generating tax that looks like they're reasoning, but they do it so well, that it feels like was done by a human, right. So I would say that the biggest changes that, you know, now, they can actually do things that are extremely useful for business in people's lives today. And that wasn't the case five years ago. So that's in the model capabilities and that is being paired with huge advances in computing that enabled this to be... Enables this to be, you know, actually see line of sites to be deployed at scale, right. And that's where we come in, by the way, but yeah. >> Yeah, I want to get into that. And also, you know, the fusion of data integrating data sets at scales. Another one we're seeing a lot of happening now. It's not just some, you know, siloed, pre-built data modeling. It's a lot of agility and a lot of new integration capabilities of data. How is that impacting the dynamics? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'll say that the ability to either take the data that has that exists in training a model to do something useful with it, and more interestingly I would say, using baseline foundational models and with a little bit of data, turn them into something that can do a specialized task really, really well. Created this really fast proliferation of really impactful applications, right? >> If every company now is looking at this trend and I'm seeing a lot... And I think every company will rebuild their business with machine learning. If they're not already doing it. And the folks that aren't will probably be dinosaurs will be out of business. This is a real business transformation moment where machine learning and AI, as it goes mainstream. I think it's just the beginning. This is where you guys come in, and you guys are poised for handling this frenzy to change business with machine learning models. How do you guys help customers as they look at this, you know, transition to get, you know, concept to production with machine learning? >> Great. Great questions, yeah, so I would say that it's fair to say there's a bunch of models out there that can do useful things right off the box, right? So and also, the ability to create models improved quite a bit. So the challenge now shifted to customers, you know. Everyone is looking to incorporating AI into their applications. So what we do for them is to, first of all, how do you do that quickly, without needing highly specialized, difficult to find engineering? And very importantly, how do you do that at cost that's accessible, right? So all of these fantastic models that we just talked about, they use an amount of computing that's just astronomical compared to anything else we've done in the past. It means the costs that come with it, are also very, very high. So it's important to enable customers to, you know, incorporate AI into their applications, to their use cases in a way that they can do, with the people that they have, and the costs that they can afford, such that they can have, you know, the maximum impacting possibly have. And finally, you know, helping them deal with hardware availability, as you know, even though we made a lot of progress in making computing cheaper and cheaper. Even to this day, you know, you can never get enough. And getting an allocation, getting the right hardware to run these incredibly hungry models is hard. And we help customers deal with, you know, harder availability as well. >> Yeah, for the folks watching as a... If you search YouTube, there's an interview we did last year at "re:MARS," I mentioned that earlier, just a great interview. You talked about this hardware independence, this traction. I want to get into that, because if you look at all the foundation models that are out there right now, that are getting traction, you're seeing two trends. You're seeing proprietary and open source. And obviously, open source always wins in my opinion, but, you know, there's this iPhone moment and android moment that one of your investors John Torrey from Madrona, talked about was is iPhone versus Android moment, you know, one's proprietary hardware and they're very specialized high performance and then open source. This is an important distinction and you guys are hardware independent. What's the... Explain what all this means. >> Yeah. Great set of questions. First of all, yeah. So, you know, OpenAI, and of course, they create ChatGPT and they offer an API to run these models that does amazing things. But customers have to be able to go and send their data over to OpenAI, right? So, and run the model there and get the outputs. Now, there's open source models that can do amazing things as well, right? So they typically open source models, so they don't lag behind, you know, these proprietary closed models by more than say, you know, six months or so, let's say. And it means that enabling customers to take the models that they want and deploy under their control is something that's very valuable, because one, you don't have to expose your data to externally. Two, you can customize the model even more to the things that you wanted to do. And then three, you can run on an infrastructure that can be much more cost effective than having to, you know, pay somebody else's, you know, cost and markup, right? So, and where we help them is essentially help customers, enable customers to take machine learning models, say an open source model, and automate the process of putting them into production, optimize them to run with the right performance, and more importantly, give them the independence to run where they need to run, where they can run best, right? >> Yeah, and also, you know, I point out all the time that, you know, there's never any stopping the innovation of hardware silicon. You're seeing cloud computing more coming in there. So, you know, being hardware independent has some advantages. And if you look at OpenAI, for instance, you mentioned ChatGPT, I think this is interesting because I think everyone is scratching their head, going, "Okay, I need to move to this new generation." What's your pro tip and advice for folks who want to move to, or businesses that want to say move to machine learning? How do they get started? What are some of the considerations they need to think about to deploy these models into production? >> Yeah, great though. Great set of questions. First of all, I mean, I'm sure they're very aware of the kind of things that you want to do with AI, right? So you could be interacting with customers, you know, automating, interacting with customers. It could be, you know, finding issues in production lines. It could be, you know... Generating, you know, making it easier to produce content and so on. Like, you know, customers, users would have an idea what they want to do. You know, from that it can actually determine, what kind of machine learning models would solve the problem that would, you know, fits that use case. But then, that's when the hard thing begins, right? So when you find a model, identify the model that can do the thing that you wanted to do, you need to turn that into a thing that you can deploy. So how do you go from machine learning model that does a thing that you need to do, to a container with the right executor, the artifact they can actually go and deploy, right? So we've seen customers doing that on their own, right? So, and it's got a bit of work, and that's why we are excited about the automation that we can offer and then turn that into a turnkey problem, right? So a turnkey process. >> Luis, talk about the use cases. If I don't mind going and double down on the previous answer. You got existing services, and then there's new AI applications, AI for applications. What are the use cases with existing stuff, and the new applications that are being built? >> Yeah, I mean, existing itself is, for example, how do you do very smart search and auto completion, you know, when you are editing documents, for example. Very, very smart search of documents, summarization of tax, expanding bullets into pros in a way that, you know, don't have to spend as much human time. Just some of the existing applications, right? So some of the new ones are like truly AI native ways of producing content. Like there's a company that, you know, we share investors and love what they're doing called runwayyML, for example. It's sort of like an AI first way of editing and creating visual content, right? So you could say you have a video, you could say make this video look like, it's night as opposed to dark, or remove that dog in the corner. You can do that in a way that you couldn't do otherwise. So there's like definitely AI native use cases. And yet not only in life sciences, you know, there's quite a bit of advances on AI-based, you know, therapies and diagnostics processes that are designed using automated processes. And this is something that I feel like, we were just scratching the surface there. There's huge opportunities there, right? >> Talk about the inference and AI and production kind of angle here, because cost is a huge concern when you look at... And there's a hardware and that flexibility there. So I can see how that could help, but is there a cost freight train that can get out of control here if you don't deploy properly? Talk about the scale problem around cost in AI. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, very quickly. One thing that people tend to think about is the cost is. You know, training has really high dollar amounts it tends over index on that. But what you have to think about is that for every model that's actually useful, you're going to train it once, and then run it a large number of times in inference. That means that over the lifetime of a model, the vast majority of the compute cycles and the cost are going to go to inference. And that's what we address, right? So, and to give you some idea, if you're talking about using large language model today, you know, you can say it's going to cost a couple of cents per, you know, 2,000 words output. If you have a million users active, you know, a day, you know, if you're lucky and you have that, you can, this cost can actually balloon very quickly to millions of dollars a month, just in inferencing costs. You know, assuming you know, that you actually have access to the infrastructure to run it, right? So means that if you don't pay attention to these inference costs and that's definitely going to be a surprise. And affects the economics of the product where this is embedded in, right? So this is something that, you know, if there's quite a bit of attention being put on right now on how do you do search with large language models and you don't pay attention to the economics, you know, you can have a surprise. You have to change the business model there. >> Yeah. I think that's important to call out, because you don't want it to be a runaway cost structure where you architected it wrong and then next thing you know, you got to unwind that. I mean, it's more than technical debt, it's actually real debt, it's real money. So, talk about some of the dynamics with the customers. How are they architecting this? How do they get ahead of that problem? What do you guys do specifically to solve that? >> Yeah, I mean, well, we help customers. So, it's first of all, be hyper aware, you know, understanding what's going to be the cost for them deploying the models into production and showing them the possibilities of how you can deploy the model with different cost structure, right? So that's where, you know, the ability to have hardware independence is so important because once you have hardware independence, after you optimize models, obviously, you have a new, you know, dimension of freedom to choose, you know, what is the right throughput per dollar for you. And then where, and what are the options? And once you make that decision, you want to automate the process of putting into production. So the way we help customers is showing very clearly in their use case, you know, how they can deploy their models in a much more cost-effective way. You know, when the cases... There's a case study that we put out recently, showing a 4x reduction in deployment costs, right? So this is by doing a mix optimization and choosing the right hardware. >> How do you address the concern that someone might say, Luis said, "Hey, you know, I don't want to degrade performance and latency, and I don't want the user experience to suffer." What's the answer there? >> Two things. So first of all, all of the manipulations that we do in the model is to turn the model to efficient code without changing the behavior of the models. We wouldn't degrade the experience of the user by having the model be wrong more often. And we don't change that at all. The model behaves the way it was validated for. And then the second thing is, you know, user experience with respect to latency, it's all about a maximum... Like, you could say, I want a model to run at 50 milliseconds or less. If it's much faster than 15 seconds, you're not going to notice the difference. But if it's lower, you're going to notice a difference. So the key here is that, how do you find a set of options to deploy, that you are not overshooting performance in a way that's going to lead to costs that has no additional benefits. And this provides a huge, a very significant margin of choices, set of choices that you can optimize for cost without degrading customer experience, right. End user experience. >> Yeah, and I also point out the large language models like the ChatGPTs of the world, they're coming out with Dave Moth and I were talking on this breaking analysis around, this being like, over 10X more computational intensive on capabilities. So this hardware independence is a huge thing. So, and also supply chain, some people can't get servers by the way, so, or hardware these days. >> Or even more interestingly, right? So they do not grow in trees, John. Like GPUs is not kind of stuff that you plant an orchard until you have a bunch and then you can increase it, but no, these things, you know, take a while. So, and you can't increase it overnight. So being able to live with those cycles that are available to you is not just important for all for cost, but also important for people to scale and serve more users at, you know, at whatever pace that they come, right? >> You know, it's really great to talk to you, and congratulations on OctaML. Looking forward to the startup showcase, we'll be featuring you guys there. But I want to get your personal opinion as someone in the industry and also, someone who's been in the computer science area for your career. You know, computer science has always been great, and there's more people enrolling in computer science, more diversity than ever before, but there's also more computer science related fields. How is this opening up computer science and where's AI going with the computers, with the science? Can you share your vision on, you know, the aperture, or the landscape of CompSci, or CS students, and opportunities. >> Yeah, no, absolutely. I think it's fair to say that computer has been embedded in pretty much every aspect of human life these days. Human life these days, right? So for everything. And AI has been a counterpart, it been an integral component of computer science for a while. And this medicines that happened in the last 10, 15 years in AI has shown, you know, new application has I think re-energized how people see what computers can do. And you, you know, there is this picture in our department that shows computer science at the center called the flower picture, and then all the different paddles like life sciences, social sciences, and then, you know, mechanical engineering, all these other things that, and I feel like it can replace that center with computer science. I put AI there as well, you see AI, you know touching all these applications. AI in healthcare, diagnostics. AI in discovery in the sciences, right? So, but then also AI doing things that, you know, the humans wouldn't have to do anymore. They can do better things with their brains, right? So it's permitting every single aspect of human life from intellectual endeavor to day-to-day work, right? >> Yeah. And I think the ChatGPT and OpenAI has really kind of created a mainstream view that everyone sees value in it. Like you could be in the data center, you could be in bio, you could be in healthcare. I mean, every industry sees value. So this brings up what I can call the horizontally scalable use constance. And so this opens up the conversation, what's going to change from this? Because if you go horizontally scalable, which is a cloud concept as you know, that's going to create a lot of opportunities and some shifting of how you think about architecture around data, for instance. What's your opinion on what this will do to change the inflection of the role of architecting platforms and the role of data specifically? >> Yeah, so good question. There is a lot in there, by the way, I should have added the previous question, that you can use AI to do better AI as well, which is what we do, and other folks are doing as well. And so the point I wanted to make here is that it's pretty clear that you have a cloud focus component with a nudge focused counterparts. Like you have AI models, but both in the Cloud and in the Edge, right? So the ability of being able to run your AI model where it runs best also has a data advantage to it from say, from a privacy point of view. That's inherently could say, "Hey, I want to run something, you know, locally, strictly locally, such that I don't expose the data to an infrastructure." And you know that the data never leaves you, right? Never leaves the device. Now you can imagine things that's already starting to happen, like you do some forms of training and model customization in the model architecture itself and the system architecture, such that you do this as close to the user as possible. And there's something called federated learning that has been around for some time now that's finally happening is, how do you get a data from butcher places, you do, you know, some common learning and then you send a model to the Edges, and they get refined for the final use in a way that you get the advantage of aggregating data but you don't get the disadvantage of privacy issues and so on. >> It's super exciting. >> And some of the considerations, yeah. >> It's super exciting area around data infrastructure, data science, computer science. Luis, congratulations on your success at OctaML. You're in the middle of it. And the best thing about its businesses are looking at this and really reinventing themselves and if a business isn't thinking about restructuring their business around AI, they're probably will be out of business. So this is a great time to be in the field. So thank you for sharing your insights here in theCUBE. >> Great. Thank you very much, John. Always a pleasure talking to you. Always have a lot of fun. And we both speak really fast, I can tell, you know, so. (both laughing) >> I know. We'll not the transcript available, we'll integrate it into our CubeGPT model that we have Luis. >> That's right. >> Great. >> Great. >> Great to talk to you, thank you, John. Thanks, man, bye. >> Hey, this is theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, here in Palo Alto, Cube Conversation. Thanks for watching. (gentle music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE's continuing coverage of AMD's fourth generation EPYC launch. I've got a special guest with me today from Prowess Consulting. His name is Evan Touger, he's a senior technical writer with Prowess. Evan, welcome. >> Hi, great to be here. Thanks. >> So tell us a little bit about Prowess, what does Prowess do? >> Yeah, we're a consulting firm. We've been around for quite a few years, based in Bellevue, Washington. And we do quite a few projects with folks from Dell to a lot of other companies, and dive in. We have engineers, writers, production folks, so pretty much end-to-end work, doing research testing and writing, and diving into different technical topics. >> So you- in this case what we're going to be talking about is some validation studies that you've done, looking at Dell PowerEdge servers that happened to be integrating in fourth-gen EPYC processors from AMD. What were the specific workloads that you were focused on in this study? >> Yeah, this particular one was honing in on virtualization, right? You know, obviously it's pretty much ubiquitous in the industry, everybody works with virtualization in one way or another. So just getting optimal performance for virtualization was critical, or is critical for most businesses. So we just wanted to look a little deeper into, you know, how do companies evaluate that? What are they going to use to make the determination for virtualization performance as it relates to their workloads? So that led us to this study, where we looked at some benchmarks, and then went a little deeper under the hood to see what led to the results that we saw from those benchmarks. >> So when you say virtualization, does that include virtual desktop infrastructure or are we just talking about virtual machines in general? >> No, it can include both. We looked at VMs, thinking in terms of what about database performance when you're working in VMs, all the way through to VDI and companies like healthcare organizations and so forth, where it's common to roll out lots of virtual desktops, and performance is critical there as well. >> Okay, you alluded to, sort of, looking under the covers to see, you know, where these performance results were coming from. I assume what you're referencing is the idea that it's not just all about the CPU when you talk about a system. Am I correct in that assumption and- >> Yeah, absolutely. >> What can you tell us? >> Well, you know, for companies evaluating, there's quite a bit to consider, obviously. So they're looking at not just raw performance but power performance. So that was part of it, and then what makes up that- those factors, right? So certainly CPU is critical to that, but then other things come into play, like the RAID controllers. So we looked a little bit there. And then networking, of course can be critical for configurations that are relying on good performance on their networks, both in terms of bandwidth and just reducing latency overall. So interconnects as well would be a big part of that. So with, with PCIe gen 5 or 5.0 pick your moniker. You know in this- in the infrastructure game, we're often playing a game of whack-a-mole, looking for the bottlenecks, you know, chasing the bottlenecks. PCIe 5 opens up a lot of bandwidth for memory and things like RAID controllers and NICs. I mean, is the bottleneck now just our imagination, Evan, have we reached a point where there are no bottlenecks? What did you see when you ran these tests? What, you know, what were you able to stress to a point where it was saturated, if anything? >> Yeah. Well, first of all, we didn't- these are particular tests were ones that we looked at industry benchmarks, and we were examining in particular to see where world records were set. And so we uncovered a few specific servers, PowerEdge servers that were pretty key there, or had a lot of- were leading in the category in a lot of areas. So that's what led us to then, okay, well why is that? What's in these servers, and what's responsible for that? So in a lot of cases they, we saw these results even with, you know, gen 4, PCIe gen 4. So there were situations where clearly there was benefit from faster interconnects and, and especially NVMe for RAID, you know, for supporting NVMe and SSDs. But all of that just leads you to the understanding that it means it can only get better, right? So going from gen 4 to- if you're seeing great results on gen 4, then gen 5 is probably going to be, you know, blow that away. >> And in this case, >> It'll be even better. >> In this case, gen 5 you're referencing PCIe >> PCIe right. Yeah, that's right. >> (indistinct) >> And then the same thing with EPYC actually holds true, some of the records, we saw records set for both 3rd and 4th gen, so- with EPYC, so the same thing there. Anywhere there's a record set on the 3rd gen, you know, makes us really- we're really looking forward to going back and seeing over the next few months, which of those records fall and are broken by newer generation versions of these servers, once they actually wrap to the newer generation processors. You know, based on, on what we're seeing for the- for what those processors can do, not only in. >> (indistinct) Go ahead. >> Sorry, just want to say, not only in terms of raw performance, but as I mentioned before, the power performance, 'cause they're very efficient, and that's a really critical consideration, right? I don't think you can overstate that for companies who are looking at, you know, have to consider expenditures and power and cooling and meeting sustainability goals and so forth. So that was really an important category in terms of what we looked at, was that power performance, not just raw performance. >> Yeah, I want to get back to that, that's a really good point. We should probably give credit where credit is due. Which Dell PowerEdge servers are we talking about that were tested and what did those interconnect components look like from a (indistinct) perspective? >> Yeah, so we focused primarily on a couple benchmarks that seemed most important for real world performance results for virtualization. TPCx-V and VMmark 3.x. the TPCx-V, that's where we saw PowerEdge R7525, R7515. They both had top scores in different categories there. That benchmark is great for looking at database workloads in particular, right? Running in virtualization settings. And then the VMmark 3.x was critical. We saw good, good results there for the 7525 and the R 7515 as well as the R 6525, in that one and that included, sorry, just checking notes to see what- >> Yeah, no, no, no, no, (indistinct) >> Included results for power performance, as I mentioned earlier, that's where we could see that. So we kind of, we saw this in a range of servers that included both 3rd gen AMD EPYC and newer 4th gen as well as I mentioned. The RAID controllers were critical in the TPCx-V. I don't think that came into play in the VM mark test, but they were definitely part of the TPCx-V benchmarks. So that's where the RAID controllers would make a difference, right? And in those tests, I think they're using PERC 11. So, you know, the newer PERC 12 controllers there, again we'd expect >> (indistinct) >> To see continued, you know, gains in newer benchmarks. That's what we'll be looking for over the next several months. >> Yeah. So I think if I've got my Dell nomenclature down, performance, no no, PowerEdge RAID Controller, is that right? >> Exactly, yeah, there you go. Right? >> With Broadcom, you know, powered by Broadcom. >> That's right. There you go. Yeah. Isn't the Dell naming scheme there PERC? >> Yeah, exactly, exactly. Back to your comment about power. So you've had a chance to take a pretty deep look at the latest stuff coming out. You're confident that- 'cause some of these servers are going to be more expensive than previous generation. Now a server is not a server is not a server, but some are awakening to the idea that there might be some sticker shock. You're confident that the bang for your buck, the bang for your kilowatt hour is actually going to be beneficial. We're actually making things better, faster, stronger, cheaper, more energy efficient. We're continuing on that curve? >> That's what I would expect to see, right. I mean, of course can't speak to to pricing without knowing, you know, where the dollars are going to land on the servers. But I would expect to see that because you're getting gains in a couple of ways. I mean, one, if the performance increases to the point where you can run more VMs, right? Get more performance out of your VMs and run more total VMs or more BDIs, then there's obviously a good, you know, payback on your investment there. And then as we were discussing earlier, just the power performance ratio, right? So if you're bringing down your power and cooling costs, if these machines are just more efficient overall, then you should see some gains there as well. So, you know, I think the key is looking at what's the total cost of ownership over, you know, a standard like a three-year period or something and what you're going to get out of it for your number of sessions, the performance for the sessions, and the overall efficiency of the machines. >> So just just to be clear with these Dell PowerEdge servers, you were able to validate world record performance. But this isn't, if you, if you look at CPU architecture, PCIe bus architecture, memory, you know, the class of memory, the class of RAID controller, the class of NIC. Those were not all state of the art in terms of at least what has been recently announced. Correct? >> Right. >> Because (indistinct) the PCI 4.0, So to your point- world records with that, you've got next-gen RAID controllers coming out, and NICs coming out. If the motherboard was PCIe 5, with commensurate memory, all of those things are getting better. >> Exactly, right. I mean you're, you're really you're just eliminating bandwidth constraints latency constraints, you know, all of that should be improved. NVMe, you know, just collectively all these things just open the doors, you know, letting more bandwidth through reducing all the latency. Those are, those are all pieces of the puzzle, right? That come together and it's all about finding the weakest link and eliminating it. And I think we're reaching the point where we're removing the biggest constraints from the systems. >> Okay. So I guess is it fair to summarize to say that with this infrastructure that you tested, you were able to set world records. This, during this year, I mean, over the next several months, things are just going to get faster and faster and faster and faster. >> That's what I would anticipate, exactly, right. If they're setting world records with these machines before some of the components are, you know, the absolute latest, it seems to me we're going to just see a continuing trend there, and more and more records should fall. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how that goes, 'cause it's already good and I think the return on investment is pretty good there. So I think it's only going to get better as these roll out. >> So let me ask you a question that's a little bit off topic. >> Okay. >> Kind of, you know, we see these gains, you know, we're all familiar with Moore's Law, we're familiar with, you know, the advancements in memory and bus architecture and everything else. We just covered SuperCompute 2022 in Dallas a couple of weeks ago. And it was fascinating talking to people about advances in AI that will be possible with new architectures. You know, most of these supercomputers that are running right now are n minus 1 or n minus 2 infrastructure, you know, they're, they're, they're PCI 3, right. And maybe two generations of processors old, because you don't just throw out a 100,000 CPU super computing environment every 18 months. It doesn't work that way. >> Exactly. >> Do you have an opinion on this question of the qualitative versus quantitative increase in computing moving forward? And, I mean, do you think that this new stuff that you're starting to do tests on is going to power a fundamental shift in computing? Or is it just going to be more consolidation, better power consumption? Do you think there's an inflection point coming? What do you think? >> That's a great question. That's a hard one to answer. I mean, it's probably a little bit of both, 'cause certainly there will be better consolidation, right? But I think that, you know, the systems, it works both ways. It just allows you to do more with less, right? And you can go either direction, you can do what you're doing now on fewer machines, you know, and get better value for it, or reduce your footprint. Or you can go the other way and say, wow, this lets us add more machines into the mix and take our our level of performance from here to here, right? So it just depends on what your focus is. Certainly with, with areas like, you know, HPC and AI and ML, having the ability to expand what you already are capable of by adding more machines that can do more is going to be your main concern. But if you're more like a small to medium sized business and the opportunity to do what you were doing on, on a much smaller footprint and for lower costs, that's really your goal, right? So I think you can use this in either direction and it should, should pay back in a lot of dividends. >> Yeah. Thanks for your thoughts. It's an interesting subject moving forward. You know, sometimes it's easy to get lost in the minutiae of the bits and bites and bobs of all the components we're studying, but they're powering something that that's going to effect effectively all of humanity as we move forward. So what else do we need to consider when it comes to what you've just validated in the virtualization testing? Anything else, anything we left out? >> I think we hit all the key points, or most of them it's, you know, really, it's just keeping in mind that it's all about the full system, the components not- you know, the processor is a obviously a key, but just removing blockages, right? Freeing up, getting rid of latency, improving bandwidth, all these things come to play. And then the power performance, as I said, I know I keep coming back to that but you know, we just, and a lot of what we work on, we just see that businesses, that's a really big concern for businesses and finding efficiency, right? And especially in an age of constrained budgets, that's a big deal. So, it's really important to have that power performance ratio. And that's one of the key things we saw that stood out to us in, in some of these benchmarks, so. >> Well, it's a big deal for me. >> It's all good. >> Yeah, I live in California and I know exactly how much I pay for a kilowatt hour of electricity. >> I bet, yeah. >> My friends in other places don't even know. So I totally understand the power constraint question. >> Yeah, it's not going to get better, so, anything you can do there, right? >> Yeah. Well Evan, this has been great. Thanks for sharing the results that Prowess has come up with, third party validation that, you know, even without the latest and greatest components in all categories, Dell PowerEdge servers are able to set world records. And I anticipate that those world records will be broken in 2023 and I expect that Prowess will be part of that process, So Thanks for that. For the rest of us- >> (indistinct) >> Here at theCUBE, I want to thank you for joining us. Stay tuned for continuing coverage of AMD's fourth generation EPYC launch, for myself and for Evan Touger. Thanks so much for joining us. (upbeat music)

(upbeat sparkling music) >> Hello everyone and welcome back to our wall-to-wall coverage of AWS re:Invent. We are live from the show floor here in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. My name is Savannah Peterson, here with my cohost John Furrier on theCUBE. John, end of day three. You're smiling. >> Yeah. >> You're still radiating energy. Is it, is it the community that's keeping your, your level up? >> It's just all the action. We've got a great special guest joining us for the first time on theCUBE. It's going to be great and Serverless wave is hitting. More and more Serverless embedded into the like, things like analytics, are going to make things tightly integrated. You can see a lot more kind of tightly coupled but yet still cohesive elements together being kind of end-to-end, and again, the, the zero-ELT vision is soon to be here. That and security, major news here at Amazon. Of course, this next segment is going to be awesome, about the modernization journey. We're going to hear a lot about that. >> Yeah, we are, and our next guest is also an extraordinarily adventurous one. Please welcome Joe from Arc XP. Thank you so much for being here. >> Thanks for having me. >> Savannah: How this show going for you? >> It's been great and you know, it's the end of the day but there's so much great energy at the show this year. >> Savannah: There really is. >> It's great walking the halls, seeing the great engineers, the thought leaders, including this session. So, it's been really a stimulating time. >> What do you do at Arc, what do you, what's your role? >> So, I'm Vice President of Technology and Product Development. I recently joined Arc to lead all the product development teams. We're an experience platform, so, in that platform we have content tools, we have delivery tools, we have subscription tools. It's a really exciting time in all those spaces. >> John: And your customer base is? >> Our customers today started with publishers. So, Arc XP was built for the Washington Post's internal needs many years ago and word got out about how great it was, built on top of the AWS tech stack and other publishers came and started licensing the software. We've moved from there to B2C commerce as well as enterprise scenarios. >> I think that's really interesting and I want to touch on your background a little bit here. You just mentioned the Washington Post. You have a background in broadcast. What was it, since you, since you are fresh, what was it that attracted you to Arc? What made you say yes? >> Yeah, so I spent a little under 10 years building the Associated Press Broadcast Newsroom Tools, some of them that you have used for many years, and you know, one of the things that was really exciting about joining ARC, was they were cloud native and they were cloud native from the start and so that really gave them a leg up with how quickly they could innovate, and now we see developers here at re:Invent be able to do custom Lambdas and new extensibility points in a way that, really, no one else can do in the CMS space >> Which, which is very exciting. Let's talk a little bit about your team and the development cycle. We've touched a lot on the economic uncertainty right now. How are things internally? What's the culture pulse? >> Yeah, so the return to work has been a thing for us, just like- >> Savannah: Are you back in office? >> All of them. We actually have a globally distributed team, and so, if you happen to be lucky enough to be in Washington, DC or Chicago or some of our other centers, there's an opportunity to be in the office, but most of our engineers work remotely. One of the exciting things we did earlier this year was ARC week. We brought everyone to DC to see each other face-to-face, and that same energy you see at re:Invent, was there in person with our engineers. >> I believe that. So, I'm a marketer by trade. I love that you're all about the digital experience. Are you creating digital- I mean everyone needs some sort of digital experience. >> Joe: Yes. >> Every company is a technology company now. Do you work across verticals? You see more niche or industry specific? >> Yeah, so we began with a very large vertical of media and broadcast. >> Savannah: There's a couple companies in that category. >> There's a couple big ones out there. >> Savannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> And actually their challenges are really high volume production of great digital storytelling, and so, solving their problems has enabled us to have a platform that works for anyone that needs to tell a story digitally, whether it's a commerce site, corporate HR department. >> Savannah: Which is everyone, right? >> Virtually everyone needs to get their story out today. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so we have gone to a bunch of other verticals and we've seen the benefits of having that strong, cloud-based platform offer the scale that all storytellers need. >> What are some of the challenges today that aren't, that weren't there a decade ago or even five years ago? We see a lot of media companies looking at the business model innovations, changing landscapes omnichannel distribution, different formats. What's some of the challenges that's going on in content? >> So, you know, content challenges include both production of content and delivery of that content through a great experience. So different parts of ARC focus on those problems and you got to monetize it as well, but what I'd say is unique to Arc and the challenge we talk to our customers about a lot is multi-format production. So, it's not just about one channel. >> Savannah: Right. It's about telling a story and having it go across multi-channels, multi-sites, and having the infrastructure both technically and in the workflow tools, is super critical for our customers and it is a challenge that we receive well. >> A lot of AI is coming into the conversation here. Data, AI, publishing, video, user generated content. It's all data. >> Absolutely, yep. >> It's all data. >> Joe: It's an immense amount of data. >> How do you look at the data plane or the data layer, the data aspect of the platform and what are some of the customers leaning into or are kicking the tires around? What are some of the trends, and what are some of the core issues you see? >> Yeah, so I've spent a lot of time in data ML and analytics looking at giant data sets, and you know, when you look at CMS systems and experience platforms, the first class that it's in, is really the, the documents themselves. What is the story you're saying? But where the rich data is that we can analyze is user behaviors, global distribution of content, how we optimize our CDN and really give a personal experience to the reader, but beyond that, we see a lot of advantages in our digital asset management platform, which is for video, audio, photos, all kinds of media formats, and applying AIML to do detection, suggest photos that might be appropriate based on what a journalist or a marketer is writing in their story. So, there's a lot of opportunities around that sort of data. >> What are some of the business model changes that you're seeing? 'Cause remember we're in digital, Page view advertising has gone down, subscription firewalls on blogs. You got things like Substack emerging. Journalists are kind of like changing. I've seen companies go out of business, some of the media companies or change, some of the small ones go out of business, the bigger ones are evolving. What are some of the business model enablements that you guys see coming, that a platform could deliver, so that a company can value their content, and their talent? >> For sure. I mean this is a perennial question in the media space, right? It's been going on for two decades. >> I was going to say we're- >> Right. >> So it's like- >> Joe: Right, and so we've seen that play out- >> John: Little softball for you. >> Really for almost every format. It's a softball, but- >> It's day three. >> How are we addressing that? You know what, first and foremost, you got to do great storytelling, so, we have tools for that, but then presenting that story, and a great experience no matter what device you're on, that's going to be critical no matter how you're monetizing it, and so, you know, we have customers that go very ad heavy. We also have a subscription platform that can do that built into our infrastructure. >> 50 million plus registered users, correct? >> Yeah, it's unbelievable to scale. Really, Arc is a growth story, and so we went from serving the Washington Post needs, to over 2000 sites today, across 25 countries. >> Very- >> How do we get to that? How do we get that audience if we want to? Can we join that network? Is it a network of people? >> I love that question. >> Of people that are using Arc XP? >> Yeah. >> Actually, we recently launched a new effort around our community, so I think they actually had a meeting yesterday, and so that's one way to get involved, but as you said, everyone needs to have a site and tell great stories. >> Yeah. >> So, we see a wide appeal for our platform, and what's unique about ARC, is it's truly a SaaS model. This is delivered via SaaS, where we take care of all of the services, over a hundred Amazon services, behind the scenes- >> Wow. >> Built into Arc. We manage all of that for our customers, including the CDN. So, it's not as though as our customers have to be making sure the site is up, we've got teams to take care of that 24/7 >> Great value proposition and a lot of need for this, people doing their own media systems themselves. What's the secret sauce to your success? If you had to kind of look at the technology? I see serverless is a big part of it on the EDB stack. What's the, what's the secret sauce? >> I think the secret sauce comes from the roots that Arc has in the Washington Post >> You understand it. >> And some of the most challenging content production workflows anywhere in the world, and I've spent a lot of time, in many newsrooms. So, I think that knowledge, the urgency of what it takes to get a story out, the zero tolerance for the site going down. That DNA really enables our engineers to do great solutions. >> Talk about understanding your user. I mean that that's, and drinking the Kool-Aid, but in a totally amazing way. One of the other things that stuck out to me in doing my research is not only are you a service used, now, by 50 million subscribers, but beyond that, you pride yourself on being a turnkey solution. Folks can get Arc up and running quite quickly. Correct? >> For sure. So, one of the things we built into Arc XP is something called Themes, which has a bunch of pre-built blocks, that our customers don't have to end up with a custom codebase when they've developed a new experience platform. That's not a good solution, of every site be a custom codebase. We're a product with extensibility hooks. >> Savannah: Right. >> That really enables someone to get started very quickly, and that also includes bringing in content from other platforms into Arc, itself. So that journey of migrating a site is really smooth with our toolset. >> What's the history of the company? Is it, did it come from the Washington Post or was that it's original customer? What's the DNA of the firm? >> Yeah, so it was originally built by the Washington Post for the Washington Post. So, designed by digital storytellers, for storytelling. >> Savannah: And one of the largest media outlets out there. >> So, that's that "DNA", the "special sauce". >> Yeah, yeah. >> So that's where that connection is. >> That really is where it comes through. >> John: Awesome. Congratulations on- >> Now today, you know, those roots are still apparent, but we've been very responsive to other needs in the markets around commerce. There's a whole other set of DNA we've brought in, experts in understanding different systems for inventory management, so we can do a great experience on top of some of those legacy platforms. >> My final question, before we go to the challenge- >> Savannah: To the challenge. >> Is, what's next? What's on the roadmap as you look at the technology and the teams that you're managing? What's some of the next milestone or priorities for your business? >> So, it is really about growth and that's the story of Arc XP, which has driven our technology decisions. So, our choice to go serverless was driven by growth and need to make sure we had exceptional experience but most importantly that our engineers could be focused on product development and responding to what the market needed. So, that's why I'd say next year is about, it's enabling our engineers to keep up with the scaling business but still provide great value on the roadmap. >> And it's not like there's ever going to be a shortage of content or stories that need to be told. So I suspect there's a lot of resilience in what you're doing. >> And we hope to be inspired with new ways of telling stories. >> Yeah. >> So if you're in the Washington Post or other media outlets. >> John: Or theCUBE. >> Joe: Or theCUBE. >> Savannah: I know, I was just- >> There's just great formats out there. >> Best dev meeting, let's chat after, for sure. >> Exactly, that's what I've been thinking the whole time. I'm sure the wheels are turning over on this side- >> So great to have you on. >> In a lot of different ways. So, we have a new tradition here at re:Invent, where we are providing you with an opportunity for quite a sizzle reel, Instagram video, 30 second, thought leadership soundbite. What is your hot take, key theme or most important thing that you are thinking about since we're here at this year's show? >> I would say it's the energy that's building in the industry, getting back together, the collaboration, and how that's resulting in us using new technologies. You know, the conversation's no longer about shifting to the cloud. We all have huge infrastructure, the conversation's about observability, how do we know what's going in? How do we make sure we're getting the most value for our customers with those, that technology set. So, I think the energy around that is super exciting. I've always loved building products. So, next year think it's going to be a great year with that, putting together these new technologies. >> I think you nailed it. The energy really is the story and the collaboration. Joe, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story. Arc is lucky to have you and we'll close with one personal anecdote. Favorite place to sail? >> Favorite place to sail. So, I lived in the Caribbean for many years, as we were talking about earlier >> None of us are jealous up here at all. >> And so my favorite place to sail would be in the British Virgin Islands, which was closed during Covid but is now back open, so, if any you've had a chance to go to the BVI, make some time, hop on Catamaran, there's some great spots. >> Well, I think you just gave us a catalyst for our next vacation, maybe a team off-site. >> Bucket list item, of course. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, Let's bring everyone together. >> Here we go. I love it. Well Joe, thanks so much again for being on the show. We hope to have you back on theCUBE again sometime soon, and thank all of you for tuning in to this scintillating coverage that we have here, live from the AWS re:Invent show floor in Las Vegas, Nevada with John Furrier. I'm Savannah Peterson. This is theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back everyone, to the special presentation of Cloud Native at scale, the Cube and Platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of Platform nine. Thank >>You very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just a success Exactly. Of containerization. Right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, Bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly, Yes. >>And so as infrastructure, as code comes in, we talked to Bacar, talking about Super Cloud. I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our, our lawn you guys just launched, the infrastructure's code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructure is code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon. Connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it. Everybody or most people know about infrastructures code, but with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D. Instead, with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specify. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. Yeah, >>Yeah. And, and that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. That declare, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's into integrations, configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you've got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new, new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. That's, >>I wrote a LinkedIn post today, it was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is the new breed, the trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your >>View? It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we tried to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into our line in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the community invite in two where they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in AAL event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so of deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection to the internet at the, the layer too is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna continue. >>It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a serviced layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd want to have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which we will be covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced Arlon at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why arlon, why this announcement? Yeah, >>So the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built our lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, >>And what's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened to need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I wanna run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We very, people used words like that. >>That's right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Arlon you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, >>So essentially standard like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, deploy it. Now what there between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things got controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on it's super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge re's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring it's saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years. I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year coan a lot of this. What does cloud native at scale mean? >>Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot. Rogue got Coan coming up and obviously this'll be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jogging for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time, there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cub cons and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, >>Well maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed, but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career, VMware over decades with them, obviously in 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here at Platform now you's been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud a Rod team at that time. We would joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform Nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? Open Stack was an example where the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will, a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the, the, the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah. I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart Yeah. On this segment, what is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a, a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you Yeah, I would you describe that when people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. Yeah. >>And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing, doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year. And, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud Native at scale? >>The the hyper square? >>Yeah. Yeah. Abras, Azure, Google, >>You mean from a business perspective, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, They, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep Well, >>They got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems and the >>Platforms. Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh, the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware. And he kinda over, well he kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. Yes, >>Exactly. >>It's, we're back in the same game. Thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud, Cloud native develop for developers. And John Feer with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up.

>>Everyone, welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special presentation on Cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. I'm John Furry, your host of The Cube. We've got a great lineup of three interviews we're streaming today. Mattor Makki, who's the co-founder and VP of Product of Platform nine. She's gonna go into detail around Arlon, the open source products, and also the value of what this means for infrastructure as code and for cloud native at scale. Bickley the chief architect of Platform nine Cube alumni. Going back to the OpenStack days. He's gonna go into why Arlon, why this infrastructure as code implication, what it means for customers and the implications in the open source community and where that value is. Really great wide ranging conversation there. And of course, Vascar, Gort, the CEO of Platform nine, is gonna talk with me about his views on Super Cloud and why Platform nine has a scalable solutions to bring cloud native at scale. So enjoy the program, see you soon. Hello and welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Forry, host of the Cube. Pleasure to have here me Makowski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. >>Thank you for having >>Me. So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on Super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good and a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model, where you have a few large distributors of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of micro sites. These micro sites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think super cloud is a, is an appropriate term for >>That. So you brought a couple things I want to dig into. You mentioned Edge Notes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. Wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got iot, o ot, and it kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions, global infrastructures, big part of it. I just saw some news around cloud flare shutting down a site here, there's policies being made at scale. These new challenges there. Can you share because you can have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because it's something business consequences as well, but there are technical challenge. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud across multiple edges and >>Regions? Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have, deploy number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other access you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that skill really needs some well thought out, well-structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when you scale, is not at the level. >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're talking about at scale Yep. Challenges here. >>Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is, you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this change, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, It's not working. The exact same problem now happens and these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer's site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on all of these various factors at their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >>Okay. So I have to ask about scale because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success cloud native, you know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can configure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotpot is. And when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the, the two factors of scale is we talked about start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and POS from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to try us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because yeah, you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say you radio sell tower site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did it, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes like ishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem. Another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that these security policies are configured properly. >>So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching, Can you share what our lawn is, this new product, What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. I'm very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arwan is, it's an open source project and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end to end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the sites of those clusters, security policies, your middleware plugins, and finally your applications. So what alarm lets you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what this solves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in. What's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, >>What would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right online. And if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of online, we, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each components, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage. But again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what Arlon really does. That's like the I pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency >>For those. So keeping it smooth, the assembly on things are flowing. C C I CD pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops, it's coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, the developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of application that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secure properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability integrated. And so it solves problems for both those >>Teams. Yeah. It's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud native developer. The OP teams have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, Kubernetes really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because, you know, c communities clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined in a declarative way. And Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so online addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source well known solutions. >>Ed, do I wanna get into the benefits? What's in it for me as the customer developer? But I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over at platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model on from model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fi, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why opensource and also opensource because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a block box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. I mean, what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way that, Well, but that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for helpers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating me metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, and you know, two things. I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a SAS hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production >>Environment. I have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer, why should I be enthused about Arlo? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo customer? >>Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native es, and then we have our C I CD pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS CD pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of their groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think Spico would be delighted. The folks that we've talked, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on s Amazon and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us >>Stability. Yeah, I think people are scared, not sc I won't say scare, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And, and I think this is gonna come up at co con this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source trying to free fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Lon uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest rated and used CD open source tools that's out there, right? It's created by folks that are as part of Intuit team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is arlon also makes use of cluster api capi, which is a ES sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with algo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what Algo CD can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to a point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, Platform nine has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy Alon at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your DEF test environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that sla. >>And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with, that are familiar with, with Argo and then Arlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo CD and they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our line before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customer's hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and, you know, give you an inventory and that, >>So customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. So >>Especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yeah. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. >>And you provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. >>Yes. That's the key value >>Here. That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale up >>Profile and policy based declarative configuration and life cycle management for clusters. >>If I asked you how this enables Super club, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there's at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way so that our lot solves then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And alon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And, you know, alarm flows >>In one. Okay, so now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. There's under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers and the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me, seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge to their, where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own the stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for >>That. So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the full stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this Arlo solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, there's designed to do, the question is, what did, does the current pain look like of the apps breaking? What does the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo, and, and, and on all the other goodness to automate, What are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, Is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely would be in indications of things are effed up a little bit. >>Yeah. More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so you are, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this because the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your, your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you are looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your, So those are, those are the >>Signals. This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application, not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the IIA terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. The company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and see, and boards is saying, how is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yeah. Do you see that same thing? >>Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CXO CIO level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, that the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloudnative at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things with things. So just >>Taking care of, and the CIO doesn't exist. There's no CSO there at the beach. >>Yeah. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for having >>Me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching. Welcome back everyone to the special presentation of cloud native at scale, the cube and platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here at Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine b. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or well later, earlier when opens Stack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of platform nine. >>Thank you very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now was realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just a success Exactly. Of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructure's code comes in, we talked to Bacar talking about Super Cloud, I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our R lawn you guys just launched, the infrastructure's code is going to another level. And then it's always been DevOps infrastructure is code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon, connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it, everybody or most people know about infrastructures code. But with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure as configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D instead with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specify. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. >>Yeah, yeah. And, and that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. Not declaring, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code. It's code being developed. And so it's into integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new, new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space that, >>That's, I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is the new breed, the trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your >>View? It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the by intu. They had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, Vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our inaugural event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so to deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer too is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna continue. >>It's interesting. I just really wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD Stock is down arm has been on rise, we've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in, in this community of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Maria Teel at our super cloud event, She's a cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? Yeah, >>So the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built AR lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, And >>What's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads at the end of the day, and I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We've heard people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with AR loan you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call the profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, So >>It's essentially standard, like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, just deploy it. Now what there is between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructure as configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things are controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure as configuration is built kind of on, it's a super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years. I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year at CubeCon a lot of this, what does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot rogue, that CubeCon coming up and now this'll be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at this year? It's the big story this year. What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jockeying for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of coupon and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career VMware over decades with them within 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here a platform. I you's been around for a while at this game, man. We talked about OpenStack, that project we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a Cloud Aati team at that time. We would joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform Nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? Opens Stack was an example and then Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah, I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you, Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing, doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud need of its scale? >>The, the hyper squares? >>Yeah, yeah. A's Azure Google, >>You mean from a business perspective, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep well, >>They got great performance. I mean, from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, >>Right? Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyper skaters really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems, the platforms. >>Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware and he kinda over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. Yes, >>Exactly. >>It's, we're back in the same game. Thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud, cloud native develop for developers. And John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up. Hey, welcome back everyone to Super Cloud 22. I'm John Fur, host of the Cuba here all day talking about the future of cloud. Where's it all going? Making it super multi-cloud is around the corner and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and Edge. Got a great guest here, Vascar Gorde, CEO of Platform nine, just on the panel on Kubernetes. An enabler blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >>Good to see you >>Again. So Kubernetes is a blocker enabler by, with a question mark I put on on there. Panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now great conversation operations is impacted. What's just thing about what you guys are doing at Platform nine? Is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform nine while you're at the helm, right? >>Absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well and since they came to us, it was an insight to call ourselves the platform company eight years ago, right? So absolutely whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you to run the infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform. And that's what where we come into >>Patrick, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background and we were kind of talking about the glory days in 2000, 2001 when the first ASPs application service providers came out. Kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all kind of cloud-like >>It wasn't, >>And web services started then too. So you saw that whole growth. Now, fast forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles, >>In fact, you know, as we were talking offline, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000 where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right? You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then. The tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right? So I think things are in a way the same but also extremely different. But more importantly now for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company is extremely mission critical. It's no longer a nice to have everybody's in the journey somewhere. >>Everyone is going digital transformation here. Even on a so-called downturn recession that's upcoming inflations sea year. It's interesting. This is the first downturn, the history of the world where the hyperscale clouds have been pumping on all cylinders as an economic input. And if you look at the tech trends, GDPs down, but not tech. Nope. Cause pandemic showed everyone digital transformation is here and more spend and more growth is coming even in, in tech. So this is a unique factor which proves that that digital transformation's happening and company, every company will need a super cloud. >>Everyone, every company, regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernize their infrastructure. And modernizing infrastructure is not just some, you know, new servers and new application tools. It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >>I wanna get your thoughts on Super Cloud because one of the things Dave Alon and I want to do with Super Cloud and calling it that was we, I, I personally, and I know Dave as well, he can, I'll speak from, he can speak for himself. We didn't like multi-cloud. I mean not because Amazon said don't call things multi-cloud, it just didn't feel right. I mean everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365. But it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized, it wasn't truly cloud enabled. It didn't, it felt like they're not ready for a market yet. Yet public clouds booming on premise. Private cloud and Edge is much more on, you know, more, More dynamic, more unreal. >>Yeah. I think the reason why we think Super cloud is a better term than multi-cloud. Multi-cloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected. Okay, you have a productivity cloud, you have a Salesforce cloud, you may have, everyone has an internal cloud, right? So, but they're not connected. So you can say, okay, it's more than one cloud. So it's, you know, multi-cloud. But super cloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically. Whether it is on-prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's a store at the branch. You are looking at this as one unit. And that's where we see the term super cloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a super cloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, you need, but at the same time you need a single pan or a single platform for you to build your innovations on, regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right? So I think Super Cloud is actually a more tightly integrated orchestrated management philosophy we think. >>So let's get into some of the super cloud type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is as a pilot to get the conversations flowing with, with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders, Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third Cloudworks in public cloud. We see the use cases on premises use cases. Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's become from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that open stack. We need an orchestration. And then containers had a good shot with, with Docker. They re pivoted the company. Now they're all in an open source. So you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. >>What's, >>What's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new defacto enabler? It >>Is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise somewhere in the journey is going on. And you know, most companies are, 70 plus percent of them have 1, 2, 3 container based, Kubernetes based applications now being rolled out. So it's very much here. It is in production at scale by many customers. And it, the beauty of it is yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skill set. And that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right? So it's, it's one thing to buy a tool and >>Just be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >>We provide, provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service and it can run anywhere. It can run in public private. We have customers who do it in truly multi-cloud environments. It runs on the edge, it runs at this in stores about thousands of stores in a retailer. So we provide that and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also un on-prem as an air gap version. Can >>You give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a super cloud experience for your customer? Right. >>So I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have hundreds of products, hundreds of r and d teams that are building different, different products. And if you look at few years back, each one was doing it on a different platforms, but they really needed to bring the agility. And they worked with us now over three years where we are their build test dev pro platform where all their products are built on, right? And it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light out operation. In fact, the customer says like, like the Maytag service person, cuz we provide it as a service and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. >>So it's kinda like an SRE vibe. One person managing a >>Large 4,000 engineers building infrastructure >>On their tools, >>Whatever they want on their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform. What >>Benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >>Speed, definitely. Okay. Definitely they're speeding. Speed uniformity because now they're building able to build, so their customers who are using product A and product B are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >>So a big problem that's coming outta this super cloud event that we're, we're seeing and we heard it all here, ops and security teams. Cause they're kind of part of one thing, but option security specifically need to catch up speed wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? Right? >>So we, we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. Who's your buyer? Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally cio definitely. So it it's, it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure. But the ideal one we are beginning to see now many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying we have a platform group on which any app can be developed and it is run on any infrastructure. So the platform engineering teams. So >>You working two sides to that coin. You've got the dev side and then >>And then infrastructure >>Side. >>Okay. Another customer that I give an example, which I would say is kind of the edge of the store. So they have thousands of stores. Retail, retail, you know food retailer, right? They have thousands of stores that are on the globe, 50,000, 60,000. And they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. They have applications that were written in the nineties and then they have very modern AIML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. The menu changes based on it's classic edge. It's classic edge, yeah. Right? They can't send it people to go install rack access servers then they can't sell software people to go install the software and any change you wanna put through that, you know, truck roll. So they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that >>You, you say little servers like how big one like a box, like a small little box, >>Right? And all the person in the store has to do like what you and I do at home and we get a, you know, a router is connect the power, connect the internet and turn the switch on. And from there we pick it up. >>Yep. >>We provide the operating system, everything and then the applications are put on it. And so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage thousands of >>Them. True plug and play >>Two, plug and play thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right? So, so that's another example where on the edge then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds. Okay. But they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the locations. >>So you guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. It's awesome. The question I want to ask you is that's come up is what is truly cloud native? Cuz there's lift and shift of the cloud >>That's not cloud native. >>Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says what's cloud native, what isn't cloud native? >>Right. Look, I think first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, is CNC foundation. And I think it's very well documented, very well. >>Tucan, of course Detroit's >>Coming so, so it's already there, right? So we follow that very closely, right? I think just lifting and shifting your 20 year old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native. Okay? You can't put to cloud, not you have to rewrite and redevelop your application in business logic using modern tools. Hopefully more open source and, and I think that's what Cloudnative is and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now everybody wants to be cloudnative, but it's not that easy, okay? Because it's, I think it's first of all, skill set is very important. Uniformity of tools that there's so many tools there. Thousands and thousands of tools you could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. Okay? So I think the complexity is there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly being done. >>And I'll give you an example, I don't know how clear native they are, right? And they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas, you do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how dominoes actually increase their share and mind share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not, I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered. There were a pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >>Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations >>Are >>For the customer. Customer, >>The customer's expectations change, right? Once you get used to a better customer experience, you learn. >>That's to wrap it up. I wanna just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you part of the Super Cloud 22 is you've seen many cycles, you have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career where you've been and what you've done and now let's CEO platform nine, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur, you sold your company to Oracle, you've been seeing the big companies, you've seen the different waves. What's going on right now put into context this moment in time around Super Cloud. >>Sure. I think as you said, a lot of battles. CARSs being been in an asb, being in a real time software company, being in large enterprise software houses and a transformation. I've been on the app side, I did the infrastructure right and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to go through to become cloud native and digitalize. If I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami that's going on is a couple of paddles come to me. One is, think of it, which was forced to honors like y2k. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for y2k. I would say the next big thing was e-commerce. I think e-commerce has been pervasive right across all industries. >>And disruptive. >>And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your e-commerce initiative, you were, it was an existence question. Yeah. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloudnative. You know, that is what I see >>Happening there. I think that that e-commerce is interesting and I think just to riff with you on that is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the gain, it's just changing how you operate, >>How you think and how you operate. See, if you think about the early days of e-commerce, just putting up a shopping cart that made you an e-commerce or e retailer or an e e e customer, right? Or so. I think it's the same thing now is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business. How are you gonna operate? How are you gonna service your customers? I think it requires that just lift and shift is not gonna work. >>Nascar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Super Cloud 22. We really appreciate, we're gonna keep this open. We're gonna keep this conversation going even after the event, to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open in the community. And we're gonna keep this going for, for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud cloud computing. I'm Sean Fur with Super Cloud 22 in the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you. Thank you. >>Hello and welcome back. This is the end of our program, our special presentation with Platform nine on cloud native at scale, enabling the super cloud. We're continuing the theme here. You heard the interviews Super Cloud and its challenges, new opportunities around solutions around like Platform nine and others with Arlon. This is really about the edge situations on the internet and managing the edge multiple regions, avoiding vendor lock in. This is what this new super cloud is all about. The business consequences we heard and and the wide ranging conversations around what it means for open source and the complexity problem all being solved. I hope you enjoyed this program. There's a lot of moving pieces and things to configure with cloud native install, all making it easier for you here with Super Cloud and of course Platform nine contributing to that. Thank you for watching.

>>Welcome back everyone, to the special presentation of Cloud Native at scale, the Cube and Platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or well later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of Platform nine. Thank >>You very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source, Docker now just the success of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, Bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructures code comes in, we talked to Basco talking about Super Cloud. I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our R lawn, and you guys just launched the infrastructures code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructures code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon. Connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructures code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it. Everybody or most people know about infrastructures code, but with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D. Instead, with Kubernetes you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specified. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. Yeah, >>Yeah. And that really means it developer just accessing resources. Okay, not clearing, Okay, give me some compute. Stand me up some, Turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean, now with open source, so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you've got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these, these new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. The that's, >>I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is a new breed. The trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your view? >>It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at our GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the computer by, in two, where they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, Bacar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in aural event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or application specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system. So the deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer two is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, >>It's >>Gonna >>Continue. It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We've remember pointing for many years now, that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at ar GoCon, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? >>Yeah, so the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built Arlan and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, >>And what's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, So let's get into what that means for up above and below the, the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you know, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that, that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructure's code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And here's my workloads running effectively. So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, right? >>So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads. And you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem, like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases, it's like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's coming like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We've heard people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon, you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Arlon you can kind of express everything together. You can say, I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications, and your clusters and manage them in a very, So >>It's essentially standard, like creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook, deploy it. Now what's there is between say a script like I have scripts, I can just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes, you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things about controllers, which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on its super set of infrastructures code because it's an evolution. You need edge retro's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring it saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, So, all right, so Cloudnative at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloudnative at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years? I mean, people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Kubernetes has value. We're gonna hear this year at co con a lot of this, what does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users. There, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we, we try to address with Arlan. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state, and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, So I'll put you on the spot road that Coan coming up, and obviously this will be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at Coan this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jocking for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's their ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cub cons and I expect to continue, and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed, but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there're just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. Yeah. >>B, you've had a storied career VMware over decades with them, obviously with 12 years, with 14 years or something like that. Big number. Co-founder here, a platform. Now you guys been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. And I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud a Rod team at that time. We to joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? OpenStack was an example where the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the, the, the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yeah, I think the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a, a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing over $2 billion tran billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud need of its scale? >>The, the hyperscalers? >>Yeah. A's Azure, Google >>You mean from a business perspective, technical, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep >>Well, they got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes. That's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the, the new risk and arm ecosystems and, and platforms. >>Yeah. Not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, and I remember our first year doing the cube, Oh, the cloud is one big distributed computer. It's, it's hardware and you got software and you got middleware and he kind of over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. >>Yes, >>Exactly. It's, we're back in the same game. Vic, thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super Cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud. Cloud Native Phil for developers and John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up.

>>Hello, welcome to the Cube here in Palo Alto, California for a special presentation on Cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. I'm John Furr, your host of The Cube. We had a great lineup of three interviews we're streaming today. Meor Ma Makowski, who's the co-founder and VP of Product of Platform nine. She's gonna go into detail around Arlon, the open source products, and also the value of what this means for infrastructure as code and for cloud native at scale. Bickley the chief architect of Platform nine Cube alumni. Going back to the OpenStack days. He's gonna go into why Arlon, why this infrastructure as code implication, what it means for customers and the implications in the open source community and where that value is. Really great wide ranging conversation there. And of course, Vascar, Gort, the CEO of Platform nine, is gonna talk with me about his views on Super Cloud and why Platform nine has a scalable solutions to bring cloudnative at scale. So enjoy the program. See you soon. Hello everyone. Welcome to the cube here in Palo Alto, California for special program on cloud native at scale, enabling next generation cloud or super cloud for modern application cloud native developers. I'm John Furry, host of the Cube. A pleasure to have here, me Makoski, co-founder and VP of product at Platform nine. Thanks for coming in today for this Cloudnative at scale conversation. Thank >>You for having me. >>So Cloudnative at scale, something that we're talking about because we're seeing the, the next level of mainstream success of containers Kubernetes and cloud native develop, basically DevOps in the C I C D pipeline. It's changing the landscape of infrastructure as code, it's accelerating the value proposition and the super cloud as we call it, has been getting a lot of traction because this next generation cloud is looking a lot different, but kind of the same as the first generation. What's your view on super cloud as it fits to cloud native as scales up? >>Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting, and I think the reason why Super Cloud is a really good, in a really fit term for this, and I think, I know my CEO was chatting with you as well, and he was mentioning this as well, but I think there needs to be a different term than just multi-cloud or cloud. And the reason is because as cloud native and cloud deployments have scaled, I think we've reached a point now where instead of having the traditional data center style model where you have a few large distributions of infrastructure and workload at a few locations, I think the model is kind of flipped around, right? Where you have a large number of microsites, these microsites could be your public cloud deployment, your private on-prem infrastructure deployments, or it could be your edge environment, right? And every single enterprise, every single industry is moving in that direction. And so you gotta rougher that with a terminology that, that, that indicates the scale and complexity of it. And so I think supercloud is a, is an appropriate term for that. >>So you brought a couple of things I want to dig into. You mentioned edge nodes. We're seeing not only edge nodes being the next kind of area of innovation, mainly because it's just popping up everywhere. And that's just the beginning. Wouldn't even know what's around the corner. You got buildings, you got iot, ot, and IT kind of coming together, but you also got this idea of regions, global infras infrastructures, big part of it. I just saw some news around CloudFlare shutting down a site here. There's policies being made at scale, These new challenges there. Can you share because you can have edge. So hybrid cloud is a winning formula. Everybody knows that it's a steady state. Yeah. But across multiple clouds brings in this new un engineered area, yet it hasn't been done yet. Spanning clouds. People say they're doing it, but you start to see the toe in the water, it's happening, it's gonna happen. It's only gonna get accelerated with the edge and beyond globally. So I have to ask you, what is the technical challenges in doing this? Because there's something business consequences as well, but there are technical challenges. Can you share your view on what the technical challenges are for the super cloud or across multiple edges and regions? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, in in the context of this, the, this, this term of super cloud, I think it's sometimes easier to visualize things in terms of two access, right? I think on one end you can think of the scale in terms of just pure number of nodes that you have deploy a number of clusters in the Kubernetes space. And then on the other axis you would have your distribution factor, right? Which is, do you have these tens of thousands of nodes in one site or do you have them distributed across tens of thousands of sites with one node at each site? Right? And if you have just one flavor of this, there is enough complexity, but potentially manageable. But when you are expanding on both these access, you really get to a point where that scale really needs some well thought out, well structured solutions to address it, right? A combination of homegrown tooling along with your, you know, favorite distribution of Kubernetes is not a strategy that can help you in this environment. It may help you when you have one of this or when you, when you scale, is not at the level. >>Can you scope the complexity? Because I mean, I hear a lot of moving parts going on there, the technology's also getting better. We we're seeing cloud native become successful. There's a lot to configure, there's a lot to install. Can you scope the scale of the problem? Because we're talking about at scale Yep. Challenges here. Yeah, >>Absolutely. And I think, you know, I I like to call it, you know, the, the, the problem that the scale creates, you know, there's various problems, but I think one, one problem, one way to think about it is, is, you know, it works on my cluster problem, right? So I, you know, I come from engineering background and there's a, you know, there's a famous saying between engineers and QA and the support folks, right? Which is, it works on my laptop, which is I tested this chain, everything was fantastic, it worked flawlessly on my machine, on production, It's not working. The exact same problem now happens and these distributed environments, but at massive scale, right? Which is that, you know, developers test their applications, et cetera within the sanctity of their sandbox environments. But once you expose that change in the wild world of your production deployment, right? >>And the production deployment could be going at the radio cell tower at the edge location where a cluster is running there, or it could be sending, you know, these applications and having them run at my customer site where they might not have configured that cluster exactly the same way as I configured it, or they configured the cluster, right? But maybe they didn't deploy the security policies, or they didn't deploy the other infrastructure plugins that my app relies on. All of these various factors are their own layer of complexity. And there really isn't a simple way to solve that today. And that is just, you know, one example of an issue that happens. I think another, you know, whole new ball game of issues come in the context of security, right? Because when you are deploying applications at scale in a distributed manner, you gotta make sure someone's job is on the line to ensure that the right security policies are enforced regardless of that scale factor. So I think that's another example of problems that occur. >>Okay. So I have to ask about scale, because there are a lot of multiple steps involved when you see the success of cloud native. You know, you see some, you know, some experimentation. They set up a cluster, say it's containers and Kubernetes, and then you say, Okay, we got this, we can figure it. And then they do it again and again, they call it day two. Some people call it day one, day two operation, whatever you call it. Once you get past the first initial thing, then you gotta scale it. Then you're seeing security breaches, you're seeing configuration errors. This seems to be where the hotspot is in when companies transition from, I got this to, Oh no, it's harder than I thought at scale. Can you share your reaction to that and how you see this playing out? >>Yeah, so, you know, I think it's interesting. There's multiple problems that occur when, you know, the two factors of scale, as we talked about, start expanding. I think one of them is what I like to call the, you know, it, it works fine on my cluster problem, which is back in, when I was a developer, we used to call this, it works on my laptop problem, which is, you know, you have your perfectly written code that is operating just fine on your machine, your sandbox environment. But the moment it runs production, it comes back with p zeros and pos from support teams, et cetera. And those issues can be really difficult to triage us, right? And so in the Kubernetes environment, this problem kind of multi folds, it goes, you know, escalates to a higher degree because you have your sandbox developer environments, they have their clusters and things work perfectly fine in those clusters because these clusters are typically handcrafted or a combination of some scripting and handcrafting. >>And so as you give that change to then run at your production edge location, like say your radio cell tower site, or you hand it over to a customer to run it on their cluster, they might not have not have configured that cluster exactly how you did, or they might not have configured some of the infrastructure plugins. And so the things don't work. And when things don't work, triaging them becomes nightmarishly hard, right? It's just one of the examples of the problem, another whole bucket of issues is security, which is, is you have these distributed clusters at scale, you gotta ensure someone's job is on the line to make sure that these security policies are configured properly. >>So this is a huge problem. I love that comment. That's not not happening on my system. It's the classic, you know, debugging mentality. Yeah. But at scale it's hard to do that with error prone. I can see that being a problem. And you guys have a solution you're launching. Can you share what Arlon is this new product? What is it all about? Talk about this new introduction. >>Yeah, absolutely. Very, very excited. You know, it's one of the projects that we've been working on for some time now because we are very passionate about this problem and just solving problems at scale in on-prem or at in the cloud or at edge environments. And what arlon is, it's an open source project, and it is a tool, it's a Kubernetes native tool for complete end to end management of not just your clusters, but your clusters. All of the infrastructure that goes within and along the site of those clusters, security policies, your middleware, plug-ins, and finally your applications. So what our LA you do in a nutshell is in a declarative way, it lets you handle the configuration and management of all of these components in at scale. >>So what's the elevator pitch simply put for what dissolves in, in terms of the chaos you guys are reigning in, what's the, what's the bumper sticker? Yeah, what >>Would it do? There's a perfect analogy that I love to reference in this context, which is think of your assembly line, you know, in a traditional, let's say, you know, an auto manufacturing factory or et cetera, and the level of efficiency at scale that that assembly line brings, right? Our line, and if you look at the logo we've designed, it's this funny little robot. And it's because when we think of online, we think of these enterprise large scale environments, you know, sprawling at scale, creating chaos because there isn't necessarily a well thought through, well structured solution that's similar to an assembly line, which is taking each component, you know, addressing them, manufacturing, processing them in a standardized way, then handing to the next stage. But again, it gets, you know, processed in a standardized way. And that's what arlon really does. That's like the deliver pitch. If you have problems of scale of managing your infrastructure, you know, that is distributed. Arlon brings the assembly line level of efficiency and consistency for >>Those. So keeping it smooth, the assembly on things are flowing. See c i CD pipe pipelining. Exactly. So that's what you're trying to simplify that ops piece for the developer. I mean, it's not really ops, it's their ops, it's coding. >>Yeah. Not just developer, the ops, the operations folks as well, right? Because developers, you know, there is, developers are responsible for one picture of that layer, which is my apps, and then maybe that middleware of applications that they interface with, but then they hand it over to someone else who's then responsible to ensure that these apps are secure properly, that they are logging, logs are being collected properly, monitoring and observability integrated. And so it solves problems for both >>Those teams. Yeah. It's DevOps. So the DevOps is the cloud needed developer's. That's right. The option teams have to kind of set policies. Is that where the declarative piece comes in? Is that why that's important? >>Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, and, and you know, ES really in introduced or elevated this declarative management, right? Because, you know, s clusters are Yeah. Or your, yeah, you know, specifications of components that go in Kubernetes are defined a declarative way, and Kubernetes always keeps that state consistent with your defined state. But when you go outside of that world of a single cluster, and when you actually talk about defining the clusters or defining everything that's around it, there really isn't a solution that does that today. And so Arlon addresses that problem at the heart of it, and it does that using existing open source well known solutions. >>And do I want to get into the benefits? What's in it for me as the customer developer? But I want to finish this out real quick and get your thoughts. You mentioned open source. Why open source? What's the, what's the current state of the product? You run the product group over at Platform nine, is it open source? And you guys have a product that's commercial? Can you explain the open source dynamic? And first of all, why open source? Yeah. And what is the consumption? I mean, open source is great, People want open source, they can download it, look up the code, but maybe wanna buy the commercial. So I'm assuming you have that thought through, can you share open source and commercial relationship? >>Yeah, I think, you know, starting with why open source? I think it's, you know, we as a company, we have, you know, one of the things that's absolutely critical to us is that we take mainstream open source technologies components and then we, you know, make them available to our customers at scale through either a SaaS model or on-prem model, right? But, so as we are a company or startup or a company that benefits, you know, in a massive way by this open source economy, it's only right, I think in my mind that we do our part of the duty, right? And contribute back to the community that feeds us. And so, you know, we have always held that strongly as one of our principles. And we have, you know, created and built independent products starting all the way with fision, which was a serverless product, you know, that we had built to various other, you know, examples that I can give. But that's one of the main reasons why opensource and also open source, because we want the community to really firsthand engage with us on this problem, which is very difficult to achieve if your product is behind a wall, you know, behind, behind a block box. >>Well, and that's, that's what the developers want too. And what we're seeing in reporting with Super Cloud is the new model of consumption is I wanna look at the code and see what's in there. That's right. And then also, if I want to use it, I'll do it. Great. That's open source, that's the value. But then at the end of the day, if I wanna move fast, that's when people buy in. So it's a new kind of freemium, I guess, business model. I guess that's the way that long. But that's, that's the benefit. Open source. This is why standards and open source is growing so fast. You have that confluence of, you know, a way for developers to try before they buy, but also actually kind of date the application, if you will. We, you know, Adrian Karo uses the dating met metaphor, you know, Hey, you know, I wanna check it out first before I get married. Right? And that's what open source, So this is the new, this is how people are selling. This is not just open source, this is how companies are selling. >>Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think, and you know, two things. I think one is just, you know, this, this, this cloud native space is so vast that if you, if you're building a close flow solution, sometimes there's also a risk that it may not apply to every single enterprises use cases. And so having it open source gives them an opportunity to extend it, expand it, to make it proper to their use case if they choose to do so, right? But at the same time, what's also critical to us is we are able to provide a supported version of it with an SLA that we, you know, that's backed by us, a SAS hosted version of it as well, for those customers who choose to go that route, you know, once they have used the open source version and loved it and want to take it at scale and in production and need, need, need a partner to collaborate with, who can, you know, support them for that production >>Environment. I have to ask you now, let's get into what's in it for the customer. I'm a customer. Yep. Why should I be enthused about Arla? What's in it for me? You know? Cause if I'm not enthused about it, I'm not gonna be confident and it's gonna be hard for me to get behind this. Can you share your enthusiastic view of, you know, why I should be enthused about Arlo? I'm a >>Customer. Yeah, absolutely. And so, and there's multiple, you know, enterprises that we talk to, many of them, you know, our customers, where this is a very kind of typical story that you hear, which is we have, you know, a Kubernetes distribution. It could be on premise, it could be public clouds, native Kubernetes, and then we have our C I C D pipelines that are automating the deployment of applications, et cetera. And then there's this gray zone. And the gray zone is well before you can you, your CS c D pipelines can deploy the apps. Somebody needs to do all of that groundwork of, you know, defining those clusters and yeah. You know, properly configuring them. And as these things, these things start by being done hand grown. And then as the, as you scale, what typically enterprises would do today is they will have their home homegrown DIY solutions for this. >>I mean, the number of folks that I talk to that have built Terra from automation, and then, you know, some of those key developers leave. So it's a typical open source or typical, you know, DIY challenge. And the reason that they're writing it themselves is not because they want to. I mean, of course technology is always interesting to everybody, but it's because they can't find a solution that's out there that perfectly fits the problem. And so that's that pitch. I think Ops FICO would be delighted. The folks that we've talk, you know, spoken with, have been absolutely excited and have, you know, shared that this is a major challenge we have today because we have, you know, few hundreds of clusters on ecos Amazon, and we wanna scale them to few thousands, but we don't think we are ready to do that. And this will give us the >>Ability to, Yeah, I think people are scared. Not sc I won't say scare, that's a bad word. Maybe I should say that they feel nervous because, you know, at scale small mistakes can become large mistakes. This is something that is concerning to enterprises. And, and I think this is gonna come up at co con this year where enterprises are gonna say, Okay, I need to see SLAs. I wanna see track record, I wanna see other companies that have used it. Yeah. How would you answer that question to, or, or challenge, you know, Hey, I love this, but is there any guarantees? Is there any, what's the SLAs? I'm an enterprise, I got tight, you know, I love the open source trying to free fast and loose, but I need hardened code. >>Yeah, absolutely. So, so two parts to that, right? One is Arlan leverages existing open source components, products that are extremely popular. Two specifically. One is Arlan uses Argo cd, which is probably one of the highest and used CD open source tools that's out there. Right's created by folks that are as part of into team now, you know, really brilliant team. And it's used at scale across enterprises. That's one. Second is Alon also makes use of Cluster api cappi, which is a Kubernetes sub-component, right? For lifecycle management of clusters. So there is enough of, you know, community users, et cetera, around these two products, right? Or, or, or open source projects that will find Arlan to be right up in their alley because they're already comfortable, familiar with Argo cd. Now Arlan just extends the scope of what City can do. And so that's one. And then the second part is going back to a point of the comfort. And that's where, you know, platform line has a role to play, which is when you are ready to deploy online at scale, because you've been, you know, playing with it in your DEF test environments, you're happy with what you get with it, then Platform nine will stand behind it and provide that >>Sla. And what's been the reaction from customers you've talked to Platform nine customers with, with that are familiar with, with Argo and then rlo? What's been some of the feedback? >>Yeah, I, I think the feedback's been fantastic. I mean, I can give you examples of customers where, you know, initially, you know, when you are, when you're telling them about your entire portfolio of solutions, it might not strike a card right away. But then we start talking about Arlan and, and we talk about the fact that it uses Argo adn, they start opening up, they say, We have standardized on Argo and we have built these components, homegrown, we would be very interested. Can we co-develop? Does it support these use cases? So we've had that kind of validation. We've had validation all the way at the beginning of our land before we even wrote a single line of code saying this is something we plan on doing. And the customer said, If you had it today, I would've purchased it. So it's been really great validation. >>All right. So next question is, what is the solution to the customer? If I asked you, Look it, I have, I'm so busy, my team's overworked. I got a skills gap. I don't need another project that's, I'm so tied up right now and I'm just chasing my tail. How does Platform nine help me? >>Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, one of the core tenets of Platform nine has always been been that we try to bring that public cloud like simplicity by hosting, you know, this in a lot of such similar tools in a SaaS hosted manner for our customers, right? So our goal behind doing that is taking away or trying to take away all of that complexity from customers' hands and offloading it to our hands, right? And giving them that full white glove treatment, as we call it. And so from a customer's perspective, one, something like arlon will integrate with what they have so they don't have to rip and replace anything. In fact, it will, even in the next versions, it may even discover your clusters that you have today and you know, give you an inventory. And that will, >>So if customers have clusters that are growing, that's a sign correct call you guys. >>Absolutely. Either they're, they have massive large clusters, right? That they wanna split into smaller clusters, but they're not comfortable doing that today, or they've done that already on say, public cloud or otherwise. And now they have management challenges. So >>Especially operationalizing the clusters, whether they want to kind of reset everything and remove things around and reconfigure Yep. And or scale out. >>That's right. Exactly. And >>You provide that layer of policy. >>Absolutely. >>Yes. That's the key value here. >>That's right. >>So policy based configuration for cluster scale up, >>Well profile and policy based declarative configuration and lifecycle management for clusters. >>If I asked you how this enables supercloud, what would you say to that? >>I think this is one of the key ingredients to super cloud, right? If you think about a super cloud environment, there's at least few key ingredients that that come to my mind that are really critical. Like they are, you know, life saving ingredients at that scale. One is having a really good strategy for managing that scale, you know, in a, going back to assembly line in a very consistent, predictable way so that our lot solves then you, you need to compliment that with the right kind of observability and monitoring tools at scale, right? Because ultimately issues are gonna happen and you're gonna have to figure out, you know, how to solve them fast. And arlon by the way, also helps in that direction, but you also need observability tools. And then especially if you're running it on the public cloud, you need some cost management tools. In my mind, these three things are like the most necessary ingredients to make Super Cloud successful. And you know, our alarm fills in >>One. Okay. So now the next level is, Okay, that makes sense. Is under the covers kind of speak under the hood. Yeah. How does that impact the app developers and the cloud native modern application workflows? Because the impact to me, seems the apps are gonna be impacted. Are they gonna be faster, stronger? I mean, what's the impact if you do all those things, as you mentioned, what's the impact of the apps? >>Yeah, the impact is that your apps are more likely to operate in production the way you expect them to, because the right checks and balances have gone through, and any discrepancies have been identified prior to those apps, prior to your customer running into them, right? Because developers run into this challenge to their, where there's a split responsibility, right? I'm responsible for my code, I'm responsible for some of these other plugins, but I don't own the stack end to end. I have to rely on my ops counterpart to do their part, right? And so this really gives them, you know, the right tooling for that. >>So this is actually a great kind of relevant point, you know, as cloud becomes more scalable, you're starting to see this fragmentation gone of the days of the full stack developer to the more specialized role. But this is a key point, and I have to ask you because if this RLO solution takes place, as you say, and the apps are gonna be stupid, they're designed to do, the question is, what did does the current pain look like of the apps breaking? What does the signals to the customer Yeah. That they should be calling you guys up into implementing Arlo, Argo and, and all the other goodness to automate? What are some of the signals? Is it downtime? Is it, is it failed apps, Is it latency? What are some of the things that Yeah, absolutely would be indications of things are effed up a little bit. Yeah. >>More frequent down times, down times that are, that take longer to triage. And so you are, you know, the, you know, your mean times on resolution, et cetera, are escalating or growing larger, right? Like we have environments of customers where they're, they have a number of folks on in the field that have to take these apps and run them at customer sites. And that's one of our partners. And they're extremely interested in this because they're the, the rate of failures they're encountering for this, you know, the field when they're running these apps on site, because the field is automating their clusters that are running on sites using their own script. So these are the kinds of challenges, and those are the pain points, which is, you know, if you're looking to reduce your meantime to resolution, if you're looking to reduce the number of failures that occur on your production site, that's one. And second, if you are looking to manage these at scale environments with a relatively small, focused, nimble ops team, which has an immediate impact on your budget. So those are, those are the signals. >>This is the cloud native at scale situation, the innovation going on. Final thought is your reaction to the idea that if the world goes digital, which it is, and the confluence of physical and digital coming together, and cloud continues to do its thing, the company becomes the application, not where it used to be supporting the business, you know, the back office and the maybe terminals and some PCs and handhelds. Now if technology's running, the business is the business. Yeah. Company's the application. Yeah. So it can't be down. So there's a lot of pressure on, on CSOs and CIOs now and boards is saying, How is technology driving the top line revenue? That's the number one conversation. Yep. Do you see that same thing? >>Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's multiple pressures at the CXO CIO level, right? One is that there needs to be that visibility and clarity and guarantee almost that, you know, that the, the technology that's, you know, that's gonna drive your top line is gonna drive that in a consistent, reliable, predictable manner. And then second, there is the constant pressure to do that while always lowering your costs of doing it, right? Especially when you're talking about, let's say retailers or those kinds of large scale vendors, they many times make money by lowering the amount that they spend on, you know, providing those goods to their end customers. So I think those, both those factors kind of come into play and the solution to all of them is usually in a very structured strategy around automation. >>Final question. What does cloudnative at scale look like to you? If all the things happen the way we want 'em to happen, The magic wand, the magic dust, what does it look like? >>What that looks like to me is a CIO sipping at his desk on coffee production is running absolutely smooth. And his, he's running that at a nimble, nimble team size of at the most, a handful of folks that are just looking after things, but things are >>Just taking care of the CIO doesn't exist. There's no ciso, they're at the beach. >>Yep. >>Thank you for coming on, sharing the cloud native at scale here on the cube. Thank you for your time. >>Fantastic. Thanks for >>Having me. Okay. I'm John Fur here for special program presentation, special programming cloud native at scale, enabling super cloud modern applications with Platform nine. Thanks for watching. Welcome back everyone to the special presentation of cloud native at scale, the cube and platform nine special presentation going in and digging into the next generation super cloud infrastructure as code and the future of application development. We're here with Bickley, who's the chief architect and co-founder of Platform nine Pick. Great to see you Cube alumni. We, we met at an OpenStack event in about eight years ago, or later, earlier when OpenStack was going. Great to see you and great to see congratulations on the success of platform nine. >>Thank you very much. >>Yeah. You guys have been at this for a while and this is really the, the, the year we're seeing the, the crossover of Kubernetes because of what happens with containers. Everyone now has realized, and you've seen what Docker's doing with the new docker, the open source Docker now just the success Exactly. Of containerization, right? And now the Kubernetes layer that we've been working on for years is coming, bearing fruit. This is huge. >>Exactly. Yes. >>And so as infrastructures code comes in, we talked to Bacar talking about Super Cloud, I met her about, you know, the new Arlon, our, our lawn, and you guys just launched the infrastructures code is going to another level, and then it's always been DevOps infrastructures code. That's been the ethos that's been like from day one, developers just code. Then you saw the rise of serverless and you see now multi-cloud or on the horizon, connect the dots for us. What is the state of infrastructure as code today? >>So I think, I think I'm, I'm glad you mentioned it, everybody or most people know about infrastructures code. But with Kubernetes, I think that project has evolved at the concept even further. And these dates, it's infrastructure is configuration, right? So, which is an evolution of infrastructure as code. So instead of telling the system, here's how I want my infrastructure by telling it, you know, do step A, B, C, and D instead with Kubernetes, you can describe your desired state declaratively using things called manifest resources. And then the system kind of magically figures it out and tries to converge the state towards the one that you specified. So I think it's, it's a even better version of infrastructures code. >>Yeah. And that really means it's developer just accessing resources. Okay. That declare, Okay, give me some compute, stand me up some, turn the lights on, turn 'em off, turn 'em on. That's kind of where we see this going. And I like the configuration piece. Some people say composability, I mean now with open source so popular, you don't have to have to write a lot of code, this code being developed. And so it's into integration, it's configuration. These are areas that we're starting to see computer science principles around automation, machine learning, assisting open source. Cuz you got a lot of code that's right in hearing software, supply chain issues. So infrastructure as code has to factor in these new dynamics. Can you share your opinion on these new dynamics of, as open source grows, the glue layers, the configurations, the integration, what are the core issues? >>I think one of the major core issues is with all that power comes complexity, right? So, you know, despite its expressive power systems like Kubernetes and declarative APIs let you express a lot of complicated and complex stacks, right? But you're dealing with hundreds if not thousands of these yamo files or resources. And so I think, you know, the emergence of systems and layers to help you manage that complexity is becoming a key challenge and opportunity in, in this space. >>That's, I wrote a LinkedIn post today was comments about, you know, hey, enterprise is a new breed. The trend of SaaS companies moving our consumer comp consumer-like thinking into the enterprise has been happening for a long time, but now more than ever, you're seeing it the old way used to be solve complexity with more complexity and then lock the customer in. Now with open source, it's speed, simplification and integration, right? These are the new dynamic power dynamics for developers. Yeah. So as companies are starting to now deploy and look at Kubernetes, what are the things that need to be in place? Because you have some, I won't say technical debt, but maybe some shortcuts, some scripts here that make it look like infrastructure is code. People have done some things to simulate or or make infrastructure as code happen. Yes. But to do it at scale Yes. Is harder. What's your take on this? What's your view? >>It's hard because there's a per proliferation of methods, tools, technologies. So for example, today it's very common for DevOps and platform engineering tools, I mean, sorry, teams to have to deploy a large number of Kubernetes clusters, but then apply the applications and configurations on top of those clusters. And they're using a wide range of tools to do this, right? For example, maybe Ansible or Terraform or bash scripts to bring up the infrastructure and then the clusters. And then they may use a different set of tools such as Argo CD or other tools to apply configurations and applications on top of the clusters. So you have this sprawl of tools. You, you also have this sprawl of configurations and files because the more objects you're dealing with, the more resources you have to manage. And there's a risk of drift that people call that where, you know, you think you have things under control, but some people from various teams will make changes here and there and then before the end of the day systems break and you have no idea of tracking them. So I think there's real need to kind of unify, simplify, and try to solve these problems using a smaller, more unified set of tools and methodologies. And that's something that we try to do with this new project. Arlon. >>Yeah. So, so we're gonna get into Arlan in a second. I wanna get into the why Arlon. You guys announced that at AR GoCon, which was put on here in Silicon Valley at the, at the community meeting by in two, they had their own little day over there at their headquarters. But before we get there, vascar, your CEO came on and he talked about Super Cloud at our in AAL event. What's your definition of super cloud? If you had to kind of explain that to someone at a cocktail party or someone in the industry technical, how would you look at the super cloud trend that's emerging? It's become a thing. What's your, what would be your contribution to that definition or the narrative? >>Well, it's, it's, it's funny because I've actually heard of the term for the first time today, speaking to you earlier today. But I think based on what you said, I I already get kind of some of the, the gist and the, the main concepts. It seems like super cloud, the way I interpret that is, you know, clouds and infrastructure, programmable infrastructure, all of those things are becoming commodity in a way. And everyone's got their own flavor, but there's a real opportunity for people to solve real business problems by perhaps trying to abstract away, you know, all of those various implementations and then building better abstractions that are perhaps business or applications specific to help companies and businesses solve real business problems. >>Yeah, I remember that's a great, great definition. I remember, not to date myself, but back in the old days, you know, IBM had a proprietary network operating system, so of deck for the mini computer vendors, deck net and SNA respectively. But T C P I P came out of the osi, the open systems interconnect and remember, ethernet beat token ring out. So not to get all nerdy for all the young kids out there, look, just look up token ring, you'll see, you've probably never heard of it. It's IBM's, you know, connection for the internet at the, the layer two is Amazon, the ethernet, right? So if T C P I P could be the Kubernetes and the container abstraction that made the industry completely change at that point in history. So at every major inflection point where there's been serious industry change and wealth creation and business value, there's been an abstraction Yes. Somewhere. Yes. What's your reaction to that? >>I think this is, I think a saying that's been heard many times in this industry and, and I forgot who originated it, but I think that the saying goes like, there's no problem that can't be solved with another layer of indirection, right? And we've seen this over and over and over again where Amazon and its peers have inserted this layer that has simplified, you know, computing and, and infrastructure management. And I believe this trend is going to continue, right? The next set of problems are going to be solved with these insertions of additional abstraction layers. I think that that's really a, yeah, it's gonna >>Continue. It's interesting. I just, when I wrote another post today on LinkedIn called the Silicon Wars AMD stock is down arm has been on a rise. We remember pointing for many years now that arm's gonna be hugely, it has become true. If you look at the success of the infrastructure as a service layer across the clouds, Azure, aws, Amazon's clearly way ahead of everybody. The stuff that they're doing with the silicon and the physics and the, the atoms, the pro, you know, this is where the innovation, they're going so deep and so strong at ISAs, the more that they get that gets come on, they have more performance. So if you're an app developer, wouldn't you want the best performance and you'd wanna have the best abstraction layer that gives you the most ability to do infrastructures, code or infrastructure for configuration, for provisioning, for managing services. And you're seeing that today with service MeSHs, a lot of action going on in the service mesh area in in this community of, of co con, which will be a covering. So that brings up the whole what's next? You guys just announced our lawn at Argo Con, which came out of Intuit. We've had Mariana Tessel at our super cloud event. She's the cto, you know, they're all in the cloud. So they contributed that project. Where did Arlon come from? What was the origination? What's the purpose? Why our lawn, why this announcement? >>Yeah, so the, the inception of the project, this was the result of us realizing that problem that we spoke about earlier, which is complexity, right? With all of this, these clouds, these infrastructure, all the variations around and, you know, compute storage networks and the proliferation of tools we talked about the Ansibles and Terraforms and Kubernetes itself. You can, you can think of that as another tool, right? We saw a need to solve that complexity problem, and especially for people and users who use Kubernetes at scale. So when you have, you know, hundreds of clusters, thousands of applications, thousands of users spread out over many, many locations, there, there needs to be a system that helps simplify that management, right? So that means fewer tools, more expressive ways of describing the state that you want and more consistency. And, and that's why, you know, we built our lawn and we built it recognizing that many of these problems or sub problems have already been solved. So Arlon doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, it instead rests on the shoulders of several giants, right? So for example, Kubernetes is one building block, GI ops, and Argo CD is another one, which provides a very structured way of applying configuration. And then we have projects like cluster API and cross plane, which provide APIs for describing infrastructure. So arlon takes all of those building blocks and builds a thin layer, which gives users a very expressive way of defining configuration and desired state. So that's, that's kind of the inception of, And >>What's the benefit of that? What does that give the, what does that give the developer, the user, in this case, >>The developers, the, the platform engineer, team members, the DevOps engineers, they get a a ways to provision not just infrastructure and clusters, but also applications and configurations. They get a way, a system for provisioning, configuring, deploying, and doing life cycle management in a, in a much simpler way. Okay. Especially as I said, if you're dealing with a large number of applications. >>So it's like an operating fabric, if you will. Yes. For them. Okay, so let's get into what that means for up above and below the the, this abstraction or thin layer below as the infrastructure. We talked a lot about what's going on below that. Yeah. Above our workloads. At the end of the day, you know, I talk to CXOs and IT folks that are now DevOps engineers. They care about the workloads and they want the infrastructures code to work. They wanna spend their time getting in the weeds, figuring out what happened when someone made a push that that happened or something happened. They need observability and they need to, to know that it's working. That's right. And is my workloads running effectively? So how do you guys look at the workload side of it? Cuz now you have multiple workloads on these fabric, >>Right? So workloads, so Kubernetes has defined kind of a standard way to describe workloads and you can, you know, tell Kubernetes, I want to run this container this particular way, or you can use other projects that are in the Kubernetes cloud native ecosystem like K native, where you can express your application in more at a higher level, right? But what's also happening is in addition to the workloads, DevOps and platform engineering teams, they need to very often deploy the applications with the clusters themselves. Clusters are becoming this commodity. It's, it's becoming this host for the application and it kind of comes bundled with it. In many cases it is like an appliance, right? So DevOps teams have to provision clusters at a really incredible rate and they need to tear them down. Clusters are becoming more, >>It's kinda like an EC two instance, spin up a cluster. We very, people used words like that. That's >>Right. And before arlon you kind of had to do all of that using a different set of tools as, as I explained. So with Armon you can kind of express everything together. You can say I want a cluster with a health monitoring stack and a logging stack and this ingress controller and I want these applications and these security policies. You can describe all of that using something we call a profile. And then you can stamp out your app, your applications and your clusters and manage them in a very, so >>Essentially standard creates a mechanism. Exactly. Standardized, declarative kind of configurations. And it's like a playbook. You deploy it. Now what's there is between say a script like I'm, I have scripts, I could just automate scripts >>Or yes, this is where that declarative API and infrastructures configuration comes in, right? Because scripts, yes you can automate scripts, but the order in which they run matters, right? They can break, things can break in the middle and, and sometimes you need to debug them. Whereas the declarative way is much more expressive and powerful. You just tell the system what you want and then the system kind of figures it out. And there are these things about controllers which will in the background reconcile all the state to converge towards your desire. It's a much more powerful, expressive and reliable way of getting things done. >>So infrastructure has configuration is built kind of on, it's as super set of infrastructures code because it's >>An evolution. >>You need edge's code, but then you can configure the code by just saying do it. You basically declaring and saying Go, go do that. That's right. Okay, so, alright, so cloud native at scale, take me through your vision of what that means. Someone says, Hey, what does cloud native at scale mean? What's success look like? How does it roll out in the future as you, not future next couple years? I mean people are now starting to figure out, okay, it's not as easy as it sounds. Could be nice, it has value. We're gonna hear this year coan a lot of this. What does cloud native at scale >>Mean? Yeah, there are different interpretations, but if you ask me, when people think of scale, they think of a large number of deployments, right? Geographies, many, you know, supporting thousands or tens or millions of, of users there, there's that aspect to scale. There's also an equally important a aspect of scale, which is also something that we try to address with Arran. And that is just complexity for the people operating this or configuring this, right? So in order to describe that desired state and in order to perform things like maybe upgrades or updates on a very large scale, you want the humans behind that to be able to express and direct the system to do that in, in relatively simple terms, right? And so we want the tools and the abstractions and the mechanisms available to the user to be as powerful but as simple as possible. So there's, I think there's gonna be a number and there have been a number of CNCF and cloud native projects that are trying to attack that complexity problem as well. And Arlon kind of falls in in that >>Category. Okay, so I'll put you on the spot road that CubeCon coming up and obviously this will be shipping this segment series out before. What do you expect to see at Coan this year? What's the big story this year? What's the, what's the most important thing happening? Is it in the open source community and also within a lot of the, the people jogging for leadership. I know there's a lot of projects and still there's some white space in the overall systems map about the different areas get run time and there's ability in all these different areas. What's the, where's the action? Where, where's the smoke? Where's the fire? Where's the piece? Where's the tension? >>Yeah, so I think one thing that has been happening over the past couple of cons and I expect to continue and, and that is the, the word on the street is Kubernetes is getting boring, right? Which is good, right? >>Boring means simple. >>Well, well >>Maybe, >>Yeah, >>Invisible, >>No drama, right? So, so the, the rate of change of the Kubernetes features and, and all that has slowed but in, in a, in a positive way. But there's still a general sentiment and feeling that there's just too much stuff. If you look at a stack necessary for hosting applications based on Kubernetes, there are just still too many moving parts, too many components, right? Too much complexity. I go, I keep going back to the complexity problem. So I expect Cube Con and all the vendors and the players and the startups and the people there to continue to focus on that complexity problem and introduce further simplifications to, to the stack. >>Yeah. Vic, you've had an storied career, VMware over decades with them obviously in 12 years with 14 years or something like that. Big number co-founder here at Platform. Now you guys have been around for a while at this game. We, man, we talked about OpenStack, that project you, we interviewed at one of their events. So OpenStack was the beginning of that, this new revolution. And I remember the early days it was, it wasn't supposed to be an alternative to Amazon, but it was a way to do more cloud cloud native. I think we had a cloud ERO team at that time. We would to joke we, you know, about, about the dream. It's happening now, now at Platform nine. You guys have been doing this for a while. What's the, what are you most excited about as the chief architect? What did you guys double down on? What did you guys tr pivot from or two, did you do any pivots? Did you extend out certain areas? Cuz you guys are in a good position right now, a lot of DNA in Cloud native. What are you most excited about and what does Platform nine bring to the table for customers and for people in the industry watching this? >>Yeah, so I think our mission really hasn't changed over the years, right? It's been always about taking complex open source software because open source software, it's powerful. It solves new problems, you know, every year and you have new things coming out all the time, right? OpenStack was an example when the Kubernetes took the world by storm. But there's always that complexity of, you know, just configuring it, deploying it, running it, operating it. And our mission has always been that we will take all that complexity and just make it, you know, easy for users to consume regardless of the technology, right? So the successor to Kubernetes, you know, I don't have a crystal ball, but you know, you have some indications that people are coming up of new and simpler ways of running applications. There are many projects around there who knows what's coming next year or the year after that. But platform will a, platform nine will be there and we will, you know, take the innovations from the the community. We will contribute our own innovations and make all of those things very consumable to customers. >>Simpler, faster, cheaper. Exactly. Always a good business model technically to make that happen. Yes. Yeah, I think the, the reigning in the chaos is key, you know, Now we have now visibility into the scale. Final question before we depart this segment. What is at scale, how many clusters do you see that would be a watermark for an at scale conversation around an enterprise? Is it workloads we're looking at or, or clusters? How would you, Yeah, how would you describe that? When people try to squint through and evaluate what's a scale, what's the at scale kind of threshold? >>Yeah. And, and the number of clusters doesn't tell the whole story because clusters can be small in terms of the number of nodes or they can be large. But roughly speaking when we say, you know, large scale cluster deployments, we're talking about maybe hundreds, two thousands. >>Yeah. And final final question, what's the role of the hyperscalers? You got AWS continuing to do well, but they got their core ias, they got a PAs, they're not too too much putting a SaaS out there. They have some SaaS apps, but mostly it's the ecosystem. They have marketplaces doing over $2 billion billions of transactions a year and, and it's just like, just sitting there. It hasn't really, they're now innovating on it, but that's gonna change ecosystems. What's the role the cloud play in the cloud native of its scale? >>The, the hyperscalers, >>Yeahs Azure, Google. >>You mean from a business perspective? Yeah, they're, they have their own interests that, you know, that they're, they will keep catering to, they, they will continue to find ways to lock their users into their ecosystem of services and, and APIs. So I don't think that's gonna change, right? They're just gonna keep, >>Well they got great I performance, I mean from a, from a hardware standpoint, yes, that's gonna be key, right? >>Yes. I think the, the move from X 86 being the dominant way and platform to run workloads is changing, right? That, that, that, that, and I think the, the hyperscalers really want to be in the game in terms of, you know, the the new risk and arm ecosystems and the platforms. >>Yeah, not joking aside, Paul Morritz, when he was the CEO of VMware, when he took over once said, I remember our first year doing the cube. Oh the cloud is one big distributed computer, it's, it's hardware and he got software and you got middleware and he kind over, well he's kind of tongue in cheek, but really you're talking about large compute and sets of services that is essentially a distributed computer. >>Yes, >>Exactly. It's, we're back on the same game. Vic, thank you for coming on the segment. Appreciate your time. This is cloud native at scale special presentation with Platform nine. Really unpacking super cloud Arlon open source and how to run large scale applications on the cloud Cloud Native Phil for developers and John Furrier with the cube. Thanks for Washington. We'll stay tuned for another great segment coming right up. Hey, welcome back everyone to Super Cloud 22. I'm John Fur, host of the Cuba here all day talking about the future of cloud. Where's it all going? Making it super multi-cloud clouds around the corner and public cloud is winning. Got the private cloud on premise and edge. Got a great guest here, Vascar Gorde, CEO of Platform nine, just on the panel on Kubernetes. An enabler blocker. Welcome back. Great to have you on. >>Good to see you >>Again. So Kubernetes is a blocker enabler by, with a question mark. I put on on that panel was really to discuss the role of Kubernetes. Now great conversation operations is impacted. What's interest thing about what you guys are doing at Platform nine? Is your role there as CEO and the company's position, kind of like the world spun into the direction of Platform nine while you're at the helm? Yeah, right. >>Absolutely. In fact, things are moving very well and since they came to us, it was an insight to call ourselves the platform company eight years ago, right? So absolutely whether you are doing it in public clouds or private clouds, you know, the application world is moving very fast in trying to become digital and cloud native. There are many options for you do on the infrastructure. The biggest blocking factor now is having a unified platform. And that's what we, we come into, >>Patrick, we were talking before we came on stage here about your background and we were gonna talk about the glory days in 2000, 2001, when the first as piece application service providers came out, kind of a SaaS vibe, but that was kind of all kind of cloudlike. >>It wasn't, >>And and web services started then too. So you saw that whole growth. Now, fast forward 20 years later, 22 years later, where we are now, when you look back then to here and all the different cycles, >>I, in fact you, you know, as we were talking offline, I was in one of those ASPs in the year 2000 where it was a novel concept of saying we are providing a software and a capability as a service, right? You sign up and start using it. I think a lot has changed since then. The tooling, the tools, the technology has really skyrocketed. The app development environment has really taken off exceptionally well. There are many, many choices of infrastructure now, right? So I think things are in a way the same but also extremely different. But more importantly now for any company, regardless of size, to be a digital native, to become a digital company is extremely mission critical. It's no longer a nice to have everybody's in the journey somewhere. >>Everyone is going digital transformation here. Even on a so-called downturn recession that's upcoming inflation's here. It's interesting. This is the first downturn in the history of the world where the hyperscale clouds have been pumping on all cylinders as an economic input. And if you look at the tech trends, GDPs down, but not tech. >>Nope. >>Cuz the pandemic showed everyone digital transformation is here and more spend and more growth is coming even in, in tech. So this is a unique factor which proves that that digital transformation's happening and company, every company will need a super cloud. >>Everyone, every company, regardless of size, regardless of location, has to become modernize their infrastructure. And modernizing Infras infrastructure is not just some new servers and new application tools, It's your approach, how you're serving your customers, how you're bringing agility in your organization. I think that is becoming a necessity for every enterprise to survive. >>I wanna get your thoughts on Super Cloud because one of the things Dave Ante and I want to do with Super Cloud and calling it that was we, I, I personally, and I know Dave as well, he can, I'll speak from, he can speak for himself. We didn't like multi-cloud. I mean not because Amazon said don't call things multi-cloud, it just didn't feel right. I mean everyone has multiple clouds by default. If you're running productivity software, you have Azure and Office 365. But it wasn't truly distributed. It wasn't truly decentralized, it wasn't truly cloud enabled. It didn't, it felt like they're not ready for a market yet. Yet public clouds booming on premise. Private cloud and Edge is much more on, you know, more, more dynamic, more real. >>Yeah. I think the reason why we think super cloud is a better term than multi-cloud. Multi-cloud are more than one cloud, but they're disconnected. Okay, you have a productivity cloud, you have a Salesforce cloud, you may have, everyone has an internal cloud, right? So, but they're not connected. So you can say okay, it's more than one cloud. So it's you know, multi-cloud. But super cloud is where you are actually trying to look at this holistically. Whether it is on-prem, whether it is public, whether it's at the edge, it's a store at the branch. You are looking at this as one unit. And that's where we see the term super cloud is more applicable because what are the qualities that you require if you're in a super cloud, right? You need choice of infrastructure, you need, but at the same time you need a single pain, a single platform for you to build your innovations on regardless of which cloud you're doing it on, right? So I think Super Cloud is actually a more tightly integrated orchestrated management philosophy we think. >>So let's get into some of the super cloud type trends that we've been reporting on. Again, the purpose of this event is to, as a pilots, to get the conversations flowing with with the influencers like yourselves who are running companies and building products and the builders, Amazon and Azure are doing extremely well. Google's coming up in third cloudworks in public cloud. We see the use cases on premises use cases. Kubernetes has been an interesting phenomenon because it's become from the developer side a little bit, but a lot of ops people love Kubernetes. It's really more of an ops thing. You mentioned OpenStack earlier. Kubernetes kind of came out of that open stack. We need an orchestration and then containers had a good shot with, with Docker. They re pivoted the company. Now they're all in an open source. So you got containers booming and Kubernetes as a new layer there. What's the, what's the take on that? What does that really mean? Is that a new defacto enabler? It >>Is here. It's for here for sure. Every enterprise somewhere else in the journey is going on. And you know, most companies are, 70 plus percent of them have won two, three container based, Kubernetes based applications now being rolled out. So it's very much here, it is in production at scale by many customers. And the beauty of it is, yes, open source, but the biggest gating factor is the skill set. And that's where we have a phenomenal engineering team, right? So it's, it's one thing to buy a tool >>And just be clear, you're a managed service for Kubernetes. >>We provide, provide a software platform for cloud acceleration as a service and it can run anywhere. It can run in public private. We have customers who do it in truly multi-cloud environments. It runs on the edge, it runs at this in stores are thousands of stores in a retailer. So we provide that and also for specific segments where data sovereignty and data residency are key regulatory reasons. We also un OnPrem as an air gap version. >>Can you give an example on how you guys are deploying your platform to enable a super cloud experience for your >>Customer? Right. So I'll give you two different examples. One is a very large networking company, public networking company. They have, I dunno, hundreds of products, hundreds of r and d teams that are building different, different products. And if you look at few years back, each one was doing it on a different platforms but they really needed to bring the agility and they worked with us now over three years where we are their build test dev pro platform where all their products are built on, right? And it has dramatically increased their agility to release new products. Number two, it actually is a light out operation. In fact the customer says like, like the Maytag service person cuz we provide it as a service and it barely takes one or two people to maintain it for them. >>So it's kinda like an SRE vibe. One person managing a >>Large 4,000 engineers building infrastructure >>On their tools, >>Whatever they want on their tools. They're using whatever app development tools they use, but they use our platform. >>What benefits are they seeing? Are they seeing speed? >>Speed, definitely. Okay. Definitely they're speeding. Speed uniformity because now they're building able to build, so their customers who are using product A and product B are seeing a similar set of tools that are being used. >>So a big problem that's coming outta this super cloud event that we're, we're seeing and we've heard it all here, ops and security teams cuz they're kind of too part of one theme, but ops and security specifically need to catch up speed wise. Are you delivering that value to ops and security? Right. >>So we, we work with ops and security teams and infrastructure teams and we layer on top of that. We have like a platform team. If you think about it, depending on where you have data centers, where you have infrastructure, you have multiple teams, okay, but you need a unified platform. Who's your buyer? Our buyer is usually, you know, the product divisions of companies that are looking at or the CTO would be a buyer for us functionally cio definitely. So it it's, it's somewhere in the DevOps to infrastructure. But the ideal one we are beginning to see now many large corporations are really looking at it as a platform and saying we have a platform group on which any app can be developed and it is run on any infrastructure. So the platform engineering teams, >>You working two sides of that coin. You've got the dev side and then >>And then infrastructure >>Side side, okay. >>Another customer like give you an example, which I would say is kind of the edge of the store. So they have thousands of stores. Retail, retail, you know food retailer, right? They have thousands of stores that are on the globe, 50,000, 60,000. And they really want to enhance the customer experience that happens when you either order the product or go into the store and pick up your product or buy or browse or sit there. They have applications that were written in the nineties and then they have very modern AIML applications today. They want something that will not have to send an IT person to install a rack in the store or they can't move everything to the cloud because the store operations has to be local. The menu changes based on, It's a classic edge. It's classic edge. Yeah. Right. They can't send it people to go install rack access servers then they can't sell software people to go install the software and any change you wanna put through that, you know, truck roll. So they've been working with us where all they do is they ship, depending on the size of the store, one or two or three little servers with instructions that >>You, you say little servers like how big one like a net box box, like a small little >>Box and all the person in the store has to do like what you and I do at home and we get a, you know, a router is connect the power, connect the internet and turn the switch on. And from there we pick it up. >>Yep. >>We provide the operating system, everything and then the applications are put on it. And so that dramatically brings the velocity for them. They manage >>Thousands of them. True plug and play >>Two, plug and play thousands of stores. They manage it centrally. We do it for them, right? So, so that's another example where on the edge then we have some customers who have both a large private presence and one of the public clouds. Okay. But they want to have the same platform layer of orchestration and management that they can use regardless of the location. So >>You guys got some success. Congratulations. Got some traction there. It's awesome. The question I want to ask you is that's come up is what is truly cloud native? Cuz there's lift and shift of the cloud >>That's not cloud native. >>Then there's cloud native. Cloud native seems to be the driver for the super cloud. How do you talk to customers? How do you explain when someone says what's cloud native, what isn't cloud native? >>Right. Look, I think first of all, the best place to look at what is the definition and what are the attributes and characteristics of what is truly a cloud native, is CNC foundation. And I think it's very well documented where you, well >>Con of course Detroit's >>Coming here, so, so it's already there, right? So, so we follow that very closely, right? I think just lifting and shifting your 20 year old application onto a data center somewhere is not cloud native. Okay? You can't put to cloud native, you have to rewrite and redevelop your application and business logic using modern tools. Hopefully more open source and, and I think that's what Cloudnative is and we are seeing a lot of our customers in that journey. Now everybody wants to be cloudnative, but it's not that easy, okay? Because it's, I think it's first of all, skill set is very important. Uniformity of tools that there's so many tools there. Thousands and thousands of tools you could spend your time figuring out which tool to use. Okay? So I think the complexities there, but the business benefits of agility and uniformity and customer experience are truly them. >>And I'll give you an example. I don't know how clear native they are, right? And they're not a customer of ours, but you order pizzas, you do, right? If you just watch the pizza industry, how dominoes actually increase their share and mind share and wallet share was not because they were making better pizzas or not, I don't know anything about that, but the whole experience of how you order, how you watch what's happening, how it's delivered. There were a pioneer in it. To me, those are the kinds of customer experiences that cloud native can provide. >>Being agility and having that flow to the application changes what the expectations of the, for the customer. >>Customer, the customer's expectations change, right? Once you get used to a better customer experience, you learn >>Best car. To wrap it up, I wanna just get your perspective again. One of the benefits of chatting with you here and having you part of the Super Cloud 22 is you've seen many cycles, you have a lot of insights. I want to ask you, given your career where you've been and what you've done and now the CEO platform nine, how would you compare what's happening now with other inflection points in the industry? And you've been, again, you've been an entrepreneur, you sold your company to Oracle, you've been seeing the big companies, you've seen the different waves. What's going on right now put into context this moment in time around Super >>Cloud. Sure. I think as you said, a lot of battles. Cars being been, been in an asp, been in a realtime software company, being in large enterprise software houses and a transformation. I've been on the app side, I did the infrastructure right and then tried to build our own platforms. I've gone through all of this myself with a lot of lessons learned in there. I think this is an event which is happening now for companies to go through to become cloud native and digitalize. If I were to look back and look at some parallels of the tsunami that's going on is a couple of paddles come to me. One is, think of it, which was forced to honors like y2k. Everybody around the world had to have a plan, a strategy, and an execution for y2k. I would say the next big thing was e-commerce. I think e-commerce has been pervasive right across all industries. >>And disruptive. >>And disruptive, extremely disruptive. If you did not adapt and adapt and accelerate your e-commerce initiative, you were, it was an existence question. Yeah. I think we are at that pivotal moment now in companies trying to become digital and cloudnative that know that is what I see >>Happening there. I think that that e-commerce was interesting and I think just to riff with you on that is that it's disrupting and refactoring the business models. I think that is something that's coming out of this is that it's not just completely changing the game, it's just changing how you operate, >>How you think, and how you operate. See, if you think about the early days of eCommerce, just putting up a shopping cart didn't made you an eCommerce or an E retailer or an e e customer, right? Or so. I think it's the same thing now is I think this is a fundamental shift on how you're thinking about your business. How are you gonna operate? How are you gonna service your customers? I think it requires that just lift and shift is not gonna work. >>Mascar, thank you for coming on, spending the time to come in and share with our community and being part of Super Cloud 22. We really appreciate, we're gonna keep this open. We're gonna keep this conversation going even after the event, to open up and look at the structural changes happening now and continue to look at it in the open in the community. And we're gonna keep this going for, for a long, long time as we get answers to the problems that customers are looking for with cloud cloud computing. I'm Sean Feer with Super Cloud 22 in the Cube. Thanks for watching. >>Thank you. Thank you, John. >>Hello. Welcome back. This is the end of our program, our special presentation with Platform nine on cloud native at scale, enabling the super cloud. We're continuing the theme here. You heard the interviews Super Cloud and its challenges, new opportunities around the solutions around like Platform nine and others with Arlon. This is really about the edge situations on the internet and managing the edge multiple regions, avoiding vendor lock in. This is what this new super cloud is all about. The business consequences we heard and and the wide ranging conversations around what it means for open source and the complexity problem all being solved. I hope you enjoyed this program. There's a lot of moving pieces and things to configure with cloud native install, all making it easier for you here with Super Cloud and of course Platform nine contributing to that. Thank you for watching.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back everyone to The Cubes coverage here in Seattle, Washington. For AWS's Marketplace Seller Conference. It's the big news within the Amazon partner network, combining with marketplace, forming the Amazon partner organization. Part of a big reorg as they grow to the next level, NextGen cloud, mid-game on the chessboard. Cube's got it covered. I'm John Furry, your host at Cube. Great guests here from Data bricks. Both cube alumni's. Jack Anderson, GM and VP of the Databricks partnership team for AWS. You handle that relationship and Joel Minick vice president of product and partner marketing. You guys have the keys to the kingdom with Databricks and AWS. Thanks for joining. Good to see you again. >> Thanks for having us back. >> Yeah, John, great to be here. >> So I feel like we're at Reinvent 2013. Small event, no stage, but there's a real shift happening with procurement. Obviously it's a no brainer on the micro, you know, people should be buying online. Self-service, Cloud Scale. But Amazon's got billions being sold through their marketplace. They've reorganized their partner network. You can see kind of what's going on. They've kind of figured it out. Like let's put everything together and simplify and make it less of a website, marketplace. Merge our partner organizations, have more synergy and frictionless experiences so everyone can make more money and customer's are going to be happier. >> Yeah, that's right. >> I mean, you're running relationship. You're in the middle of it. >> Well, Amazon's mental model here is that they want the world's best ISVs to operate on AWS so that we can collaborate and co architect on behalf of customers. And that's exactly what the APO and marketplace allow us to do, is to work with Amazon on these really, you know, unique use cases. >> You know, I interviewed Ali many times over the years. I remember many years ago, maybe six, seven years ago, we were talking. He's like, "we're all in on AWS." Obviously now the success of Databricks, you've got multiple clouds, see that. Customers have choice. But I remember the strategy early on. It was like, we're going to be deep. So this is, speaks volumes to the relationship you have. Years. Jack, take us through the relationship that Databricks has with AWS from a partner perspective. Joel, and from a product perspective. Because it's not like you guys are Johnny come lately, new to the scene. >> Right. >> You've been there, almost president creation of this wave. What's the relationship and how does it relate to what's going on today? >> So most people may not know that Databricks was born on AWS. We actually did our first $100 million of revenue on Amazon. And today we're obviously available on multiple clouds. But we're very fond of our Amazon relationship. And when you look at what the APN allows us to do, you know, we're able to expand our reach and co-sell with Amazon, and marketplace broadens our reach. And so, we think of marketplace in three different aspects. We've got the marketplace private offer business, which we've been doing for a number of years. Matter of fact, we were driving well over a hundred percent year over year growth in private offers. And we have a nine figure business. So it's a very significant business. And when a customer uses a private offer, that private offer counts against their private pricing agreement with AWS. So they get pricing power against their private pricing. So it's really important it goes on their Amazon bill. In may we launched our pay as you go, on demand offering. And in five short months, we have well over a thousand subscribers. And what this does, is it really reduces the barriers to entry. It's low friction. So anybody in an enterprise or startup or public sector company can start to use Databricks on AWS, in a consumption based model, and have it go against their monthly bill. And so we see customers, you know, doing rapid experimentation, pilots, POCs. They're really learning the value of that first, use case. And then we see rapid use case expansion. And the third aspect is the consulting partner, private offer, CPPO. Super important in how we involve our partner ecosystem of our consulting partners and our resellers that are able to work with Databricks on behalf of customers. >> So you got the big contracts with the private offer. You got the product market fit, kind of people iterating with data, coming in with the buyers you get. And obviously the integration piece all fitting in there. >> Exactly. >> Okay, so those are the offers, that's current, what's in marketplace today. Is that the products... What are people buying? >> Yeah. >> I mean, I guess what's the... Joel, what are people buying in the marketplace? And what does it mean for them? >> So fundamentally what they're buying is the ability to take silos out of their organization. And that is the problem that Databricks is out there to solve. Which is, when you look across your data landscape today, you've got unstructured data, you've got structured data, you've got real time streaming data. And your teams are trying to use all of this data to solve really complicated problems. And as Databricks, as the Lakehouse Company, what we're helping customers do is, how do they get into the new world? How do they move to a place where they can use all of that data across all of their teams? And so we allow them to begin to find, through the marketplace, those rapid adoption use cases where they can get rid of these data warehousing, data lake silos they've had in the past. Get their unstructured and structured data onto one data platform, an open data platform, that is no longer adherent to any proprietary formats and standards and something they can, very much, very easily, integrate into the rest of their data environment. Apply one common data governance layer on top of that. So that from the time they ingest that data, to the time they use that data, to the time they share that data, inside and outside of their organization, they know exactly how it's flowing. They know where it came from. They know who's using it. They know who has access to it. They know how it's changing. And then with that common data platform, with that common governance solution, they'd being able to bring all of those use cases together. Across their real time streaming, their data engineering, their BI, their AI. All of their teams working on one set of data. And that lets them move really, really fast. And it also lets them solve challenges they just couldn't solve before. A good example of this, you know, one of the world's now largest data streaming platforms runs on Databricks with AWS. And if you think about what does it take to set that up? Well, they've got all this customer data that was historically inside of data warehouses. That they have to understand who their customers are. They have all this unstructured data, they've built their data science model, so they can do the right kinds of recommendation engines and forecasting around. And then they've got all this streaming data going back and forth between click stream data, from what the customers are doing with their platform and the recommendations they want to push back out. And if those teams were all working in individual silos, building these kinds of platforms would be extraordinarily slow and complex. But by building it on Databricks, they were able to release it in record time and have grown at a record pace to now be the number one platform. >> And this product, it's impacting product development. >> Absolutely. >> I mean, this is like the difference between lagging months of product development, to like days. >> Yes. >> Pretty much what you're getting at. >> Yes. >> So total agility. >> Mm-hmm. >> I got that. Okay, now, I'm a customer I want to buy in the marketplace, but you got direct Salesforce up there. So how do you guys look at this? Is there channel conflict? Are there comp programs? Because one of the things I heard today in on the stage from AWS's leadership, Chris, was up there speaking, and Mona was, "Hey, he's a CRO conference chief revenue officer" conversation. Which means someone's getting compensated. So, if I'm the sales rep at Databricks, what's my motion to the customer? Do I get paid? Does Amazon sell it? Take us through that. Is there channel conflict? Or, how do you handle it? >> Well, I'd add what Joel just talked about with, you know, with the solution, the value of the solution our entire offering is available on AWS marketplace. So it's not a subset, it's the entire Data Bricks offering. And- >> The flagship, all the, the top stuff. >> Everything, the flagship, the complete offering. So it's not segmented. It's not a sub segment. >> Okay. >> It's, you know, you can use all of our different offerings. Now when it comes to seller compensation, we view this two different ways, right? One is that AWS is also incented, right? Versus selling a native service to recommend Databricks for the right situation. Same thing with Databricks, our sales force wants to do the right thing for the customer. If the customer wants to use marketplace as their procurement vehicle. And that really helps customers because if you get Databricks and five other ISVs together, and let's say each ISV is spending, you're spending a million dollars. You have $5 million of spend. You put that spend through the flywheel with AWS marketplace, and then you can use that in your negotiations with AWS to get better pricing overall. So that's how we view it. >> So customers are driving. This sounds like. >> Correct. For sure. >> So they're looking at this as saying, Hey, I'm going to just get purchasing power with all my relationships. Because it's a solution architectural market, right? >> Yeah. It makes sense. Because if most customers will have a primary and secondary cloud provider. If they can consolidate, you know, multiple ISV spend through that same primary provider, you get pricing power. >> Okay, Joel, we're going to date ourselves. At least I will. So back in the old days, (group laughter) It used to be, do a Barney deal with someone, Hey, let's go to market together. You got to get paper, you do a biz dev deal. And then you got to say, okay, now let's coordinate our sales teams, a lot of moving parts. So what you're getting at here is that the alternative for Databricks, or any company is, to go find those partners and do deals, versus now Amazon is the center point for the customer. So you can still do those joint deals, but this seems to be flipping the script a little bit. >> Well, it is, but we still have vars and consulting partners that are doing implementation work. Very valuable work, advisory work, that can actually work with marketplace through the CPPO offering. So the marketplace allows multiple ways to procure your solution. >> So it doesn't change your business structure. It just makes it more efficient. >> That's correct. >> That's a great way to say it. >> Yeah, that's great. >> Okay. So, that's it. So that's just makes it more efficient. So you guys are actually incented to point customers to the marketplace. >> Yes. >> Absolutely. >> Economically. >> Economically, it's the right thing to do for the customer. It's the right thing to do for our relationship with Amazon. Especially when it comes back to co-selling, right? Because Amazon now is leaning in with ISVs and making recommendations for, you know, an ISV solution. And our teams are working backwards from those use cases, you know, to collaborate and land them. >> Yeah. I want to get that out there. Go ahead, Joel. >> So one of the other things I might add to that too, you know, and why this is advantageous for companies like Databricks to work through the marketplace. Is it makes it so much easier for customers to deploy a solution. It's very, literally, one click through the marketplace to get Databricks stood up inside of your environment. And so if you're looking at how do I help customers most rapidly adopt these solutions in the AWS cloud, the marketplace is a fantastic accelerator to that. >> You know, it's interesting. I want to bring this up and get your reaction to it because to me, I think this is the future of procurement. So from a procurement standpoint, I mean, again, dating myself, EDI back in the old days, you know, all that craziness. Now this is all the internet, basically through the console. I get the infrastructure side, you know, spin up and provision some servers, all been good. You guys have played well there in the marketplace. But now as we get into more of what I call the business apps, and they brought this up on stage. A little nuanced. Most enterprises aren't yet there of integrating tech, on the business apps, into the stack. This is where I think you guys are a use case of success where you guys have been successful with data integration. It's an integrators dilemma, not an innovator's dilemma. So like, I want to integrate. So now I have integration points with Databricks, but I want to put an app in there. I want to provision an application, but it has to be built. It's not, you don't buy it. You build, you got to build stuff. And this is the nuance. What's your reaction to that? Am I getting this right? Or am I off because, no one's going to be buying software like they used to. They buy software to integrate it. >> Yeah, no- >> Because everything's integrated. >> I think AWS has done a great job at creating a partner ecosystem, right? To give customers the right tools for the right jobs. And those might be with third parties. Databricks is doing the same thing with our partner connect program, right? We've got customer partners like Five Tran and DBT that, you know, augment and enhance our platform. And so you're looking at multi ISV architectures and all of that can be procured through the AWS marketplace. >> Yeah. It's almost like, you know, bundling and un bundling. I was talking about this with, with Dave Alante about Supercloud. Which is why wouldn't a customer want the best solution in their architecture? Period. In its class. If someone's got API security or an API gateway. Well, you know, I don't want to be forced to buy something because it's part of a suite. And that's where you see things get sub optimized. Where someone dominates a category and they have, oh, you got to buy my version of this. >> Joel and I were talking, we were actually saying, what's really important about Databricks, is that customers control the data, right? You want to comment on that? >> Yeah. I was going to say, you know, what you're pushing on there, we think is extraordinarily, you know, the way the market is going to go. Is that customers want a lot of control over how they build their data stack. And everyone's unique in what tools are the right ones for them. And so one of the, you know, philosophically, I think, really strong places, Databricks and AWS have lined up, is we both take an approach that you should be able to have maximum flexibility on the platform. And as we think about the Lakehouse, one thing we've always been extremely committed to, as a company, is building the data platform on an open foundation. And we do that primarily through Delta Lake and making sure that, to Jack's point, with Databricks, the data is always in your control. And then it's always stored in a completely open format. And that is one of the things that's allowed Databricks to have the breadth of integrations that it has with all the other data tools out there. Because you're not tied into any proprietary format, but instead are able to take advantage of all the innovation that's happening out there in the open source ecosystem. >> When you see other solutions out there that aren't as open as you guys, you guys are very open by the way, we love that too. We think that's a great strategy, but what am I foreclosing if I go with something else that's not as open? What's the customer's downside as you think about what's around the corner in the industry? Because if you believe it's going to be open, open source, which I think open source software is the software industry, and integration is a big deal. Because software's going to be plentiful. >> Sure. >> Let's face it. It's a good time to be in software business. But Cloud's booming. So what's the downside, from your Databricks perspective? You see a buyer clicking on Databricks versus that alternative. What's potentially should they be a nervous about, down the road, if they go with a more proprietary or locked in approach? >> Yeah. >> Well, I think the challenge with proprietary ecosystems is you become beholden to the ability of that provider to both build relationships and convince other vendors that they should invest in that format. But you're also, then, beholden to the pace at which that provider is able to innovate. >> Mm-hmm. >> And I think we've seen lots of times over history where, you know, a proprietary format may run ahead, for a while, on a lot of innovation. But as that market control begins to solidify, that desire to innovate begins to degrade. Whereas in the open formats- >> So extract rents versus innovation. (John laughs) >> Exactly. Yeah, exactly. >> I'll say it. >> But in the open world, you know, you have to continue to innovate. >> Yeah. >> And the open source world is always innovating. If you look at the last 10 to 15 years, I challenge you to find, you know, an example where the innovation in the data and AI world is not coming from open source. And so by investing in open ecosystems, that means you are always going to be at the forefront of what is the latest. >> You know, again, not to date myself again, but you look back at the eighties and nineties, the protocol stacked with proprietary. >> Yeah. >> You know, SNA and IBM, deck net was digital. You know the rest. And then TCPIP was part of the open systems interconnect. >> Mm-hmm. >> Revolutionary (indistinct) a big part of that, as well as my school did. And so like, you know, that was, but it didn't standardize the whole stack. It stopped at IP and TCP. >> Yeah. >> But that helped inter operate, that created a nice defacto. So this is a big part of this mid game. I call it the chessboard, you know, you got opening game and mid-game, then you get the end game. You're not there at the end game yet at Cloud. But Cloud- >> There's, always some form of lock in, right? Andy Jazzy will address it, you know, when making a decision. But if you're going to make a decision you want to reduce- You don't want to be limited, right? So I would advise a customer that there could be limitations with a proprietary architecture. And if you look at what every customer's trying to become right now, is an AI driven business, right? And so it has to do with, can you get that data out of silos? Can you organize it and secure it? And then can you work with data scientists to feed those models? >> Yeah. >> In a very consistent manner. And so the tools of tomorrow will, to Joel's point, will be open and we want interoperability with those tools. >> And choice is a matter too. And I would say that, you know, the argument for why I think Amazon is not as locked in as maybe some other clouds, is that they have to compete directly too. Redshift competes directly with a lot of other stuff. But they can't play the bundling game because the customers are getting savvy to the fact that if you try to bundle an inferior product with something else, it may not work great at all. And they're going to be, they're onto it. This is the- >> To Amazon's credit by having these solutions that may compete with native services in marketplace, they are providing customers with choice, low price- >> And access to the core value. Which is the hardware- >> Exactly. >> Which is their platform. Okay. So I want to get you guys thought on something else I see emerging. This is, again, kind of Cube rumination moment. So on stage, Chris unpacked a lot of stuff. I mean this marketplace, they're touching a lot of hot buttons here, you know, pricing, compensation, workflows, services behind the curtain. And one of those things he mentioned was, they talk about resellers or channel partners, depending upon what you talk about. We believe, Dave and I believe on the Cube, that the entire indirect sales channel of the industry is going to be disrupted radically. Because those players were selling hardware in the old days and software. That game is going to change. You mentioned you guys have a program, let me get your thoughts on this. We believe that once this gets set up, they can play in this game and bring their services in. Which means that the old reseller channels are going to be rewritten. They're going to be refactored with this new kinds of access. Because you've got scale, you've got money and you've got product. And you got customers coming into the marketplace. So if you're like a reseller that sold computers to data centers or software, you know, a value added reseller or VAB or business. >> You've got to evolve. >> You got to, you got to be here. >> Yes. >> Yeah. >> How are you guys working with those partners? Because you say you have a product in your marketplace there. How do I make money if I'm a reseller with Databricks, with Amazon? Take me through that use case. >> Well I'll let Joel comment, but I think it's pretty straightforward, right? Customers need expertise. They need knowhow. When we're seeing customers do mass migrations to the cloud or Hadoop specific migrations or data transformation implementations. They need expertise from consulting and SI partners. If those consulting and SI partners happen to resell the solution as well. Well, that's another aspect of their business. But I really think it is the expertise that the partners bring to help customers get outcomes. >> Joel, channel big opportunity for Amazon to reimagine this. >> For sure. Yeah. And I think, you know, to your comment about how do resellers take advantage of that, I think what Jack was pushing on is spot on. Which is, it's becoming more and more about the expertise you bring to the table. And not just transacting the software. But now actually helping customers make the right choices. And we're seeing, you know, both SIs begin to be able to resell solutions and finding a lot of opportunity in that. >> Yeah. And I think we're seeing traditional resellers begin to move into that SI model as well. And that's going to be the evolution that this goes. >> At the end of the day, it's about services, right? >> For sure. Yeah. >> I mean... >> You've got a great service. You're going to have high gross profits. >> Yeah >> Managed service provider business is alive and well, right? Because there are a number of customers that want that type of a service. >> I think that's going to be a really hot, hot button for you guys. I think being the way you guys are open, this channel, partner services model coming in, to the fold, really kind of makes for kind of that Supercloud like experience, where you guys now have an ecosystem. And that's my next question. You guys have an ecosystem going on, within Databricks. >> For sure. >> On top of this ecosystem. How does that work? This is kind of like, hasn't been written up in business school and case studies yet. This is new. What is this? >> I think, you know, what it comes down to is, you're seeing ecosystems begin to evolve around the data platforms. And that's going to be one of the big, kind of, new horizons for us as we think about what drives ecosystems. It's going to be around, well, what's the data platform that I'm using? And then all the tools that have to encircle that to get my business done. And so I think there's, you know, absolutely ecosystems inside of the AWS business on all of AWS's services, across data analytics and AI. And then to your point, you are seeing ecosystems now arise around Databricks in its Lakehouse platform as well. As customers are looking at well, if I'm standing these Lakehouses up and I'm beginning to invest in this, then I need a whole set of tools that help me get that done as well. >> I mean you think about ecosystem theory, we're living a whole nother dream. And I'm not kidding. It hasn't yet been written up and for business school case studies is that, we're now in a whole nother connective tissue, ecology thing happening. Where you have dependencies and value proposition. Economics, connectedness. So you have relationships in these ecosystems. >> And I think one of the great things about the relationships with these ecosystems, is that there's a high degree of overlap. >> Yeah. >> So you're seeing that, you know, the way that the cloud business is evolving, the ecosystem partners of Databricks, are the same ecosystem partners of AWS. And so as you build these platforms out into the cloud, you're able to really take advantage of best of breed, the broadest set of solutions out there for you. >> Joel, Jack, I love it because you know what it means? The best ecosystem will win, if you keep it open. >> Sure, sure. >> You can see everything. If you're going to do it in the dark, you know, you don't know the outcome. I mean, this is really kind of what we're talking about. >> And John, can I just add that when I was at Amazon, we had a theory that there's buyers and builders, right? There's very innovative companies that want to build things themselves. We're seeing now that that builders want to buy a platform. Right? >> Yeah. >> And so there's a platform decision being made and that ecosystem is going to evolve around the platform. >> Yeah, and I totally agree. And the word innovation gets kicked around. That's why, you know, when we had our Supercloud panel, it was called the innovators dilemma, with a slash through it, called the integrater's dilemma. Innovation is the digital transformation. So- >> Absolutely. >> Like that becomes cliche in a way, but it really becomes more of a, are you open? Are you integrating? If APIs are connective tissue, what's automation, what's the service messages look like? I mean, a whole nother set of, kind of thinking, goes on in these new ecosystems and these new products. >> And that thinking is, has been born in Delta Sharing, right? So the idea that you can have a multi-cloud implementation of Databricks, and actually share data between those two different clouds, that is the next layer on top of the native cloud solution. >> Well, Databricks has done a good job of building on top of the goodness of, and the CapEx gift from AWS. But you guys have done a great job taking that building differentiation into the product. You guys have great customer base, great growing ecosystem. And again, I think a shining example of what every enterprise is going to do. Build on top of something, operating model, get that operating model, driving revenue. >> Mm-hmm. >> Yeah. >> Whether, you're Goldman Sachs or capital one or XYZ corporation. >> S and P global, NASDAQ. >> Yeah. >> We've got, you know, the biggest verticals in the world are solving tough problems with Databricks. I think we'd be remiss because if Ali was here, he would really want to thank Amazon for all of the investments across all of the different functions. Whether it's the relationship we have with our engineering and service teams. Our marketing teams, you know, product development. And we're going to be at Reinvent. A big presence at Reinvent. We're looking forward to seeing you there, again. >> Yeah. We'll see you guys there. Yeah. Again, good ecosystem. I love the ecosystem evolutions happening. This NextGen Cloud is here. We're seeing this evolve, kind of new economics, new value propositions kind of scaling up. Producing more. So you guys are doing a great job. Thanks for coming on the Cube and taking the time. Joel, great to see you at the check. >> Thanks for having us, John. >> Okay. Cube coverage here. The world's changing as APN comes together with the marketplace for a new partner organization at Amazon web services. The Cube's got it covered. This should be a very big, growing ecosystem as this continues. Billions of being sold through the marketplace. And of course the buyers are happy as well. So we've got it all covered. I'm John Furry. your host of the cube. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)