>> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from the Cube and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante. >> The unraveling of market enthusiasm continued in Q4 of 2022 with the earnings reports from the US hyperscalers, the big three now all in. As we said earlier this year, even the cloud is an immune from the macro headwinds and the cracks in the armor that we saw from the data that we shared last summer, they're playing out into 2023. For the most part actuals are disappointing beyond expectations including our own. It turns out that our estimates for the big three hyperscaler's revenue missed by 1.2 billion or 2.7% lower than we had forecast from even our most recent November estimates. And we expect continued decelerating growth rates for the hyperscalers through the summer of 2023 and we don't think that's going to abate until comparisons get easier. Hello and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. In this Breaking Analysis, we share our view of what's happening in cloud markets not just for the hyperscalers but other firms that have hitched a ride on the cloud. And we'll share new ETR data that shows why these trends are playing out tactics that customers are employing to deal with their cost challenges and how long the pain is likely to last. You know, riding the cloud wave, it's a two-edged sword. Let's look at the players that have gone all in on or are exposed to both the positive and negative trends of cloud. Look the cloud has been a huge tailwind for so many companies like Snowflake and Databricks, Workday, Salesforce, Mongo's move with Atlas, Red Hats Cloud strategy with OpenShift and so forth. And you know, the flip side is because cloud is elastic what comes up can also go down very easily. Here's an XY graphic from ETR that shows spending momentum or net score on the vertical axis and market presence in the dataset on the horizontal axis provision or called overlap. This is data from the January 2023 survey and that the red dotted lines show the positions of several companies that we've highlighted going back to January 2021. So let's unpack this for a bit starting with the big three hyperscalers. The first point is AWS and Azure continue to solidify their moat relative to Google Cloud platform. And we're going to get into this in a moment, but Azure and AWS revenues are five to six times that of GCP for IaaS. And at those deltas, Google should be gaining ground much faster than the big two. The second point on Google is notice the red line on GCP relative to its starting point. While it appears to be gaining ground on the horizontal axis, its net score is now below that of AWS and Azure in the survey. So despite its significantly smaller size it's just not keeping pace with the leaders in terms of market momentum. Now looking at AWS and Microsoft, what we see is basically AWS is holding serve. As we know both Google and Microsoft benefit from including SaaS in their cloud numbers. So the fact that AWS hasn't seen a huge downward momentum relative to a January 2021 position is one positive in the data. And both companies are well above that magic 40% line on the Y-axis, anything above 40% we consider to be highly elevated. But the fact remains that they're down as are most of the names on this chart. So let's take a closer look. I want to start with Snowflake and Databricks. Snowflake, as we reported from several quarters back came down to Earth, it was up in the 80% range in the Y-axis here. And it's still highly elevated in the 60% range and it continues to move to the right, which is positive but as we'll address in a moment it's customers can dial down consumption just as in any cloud. Now, Databricks is really interesting. It's not a public company, it never made it to IPO during the sort of tech bubble. So we don't have the same level of transparency that we do with other companies that did make it through. But look at how much more prominent it is on the X-axis relative to January 2021. And it's net score is basically held up over that period of time. So that's a real positive for Databricks. Next, look at Workday and Salesforce. They've held up relatively well, both inching to the right and generally holding their net scores. Same from Mongo, which is the brown dot above its name that says Elastic, it says a little gets a little crowded which Elastic's actually the blue dot above it. But generally, SaaS is harder to dial down, Workday, Salesforce, Oracles, SaaS and others. So it's harder to dial down because commitments have been made in advance, they're kind of locked in. Now, one of the discussions from last summer was as Mongo, less discretionary than analytics i.e. Snowflake. And it's an interesting debate but maybe Snowflake customers, you know, they're also generally committed to a dollar amount. So over time the spending is going to be there. But in the short term, yeah maybe Snowflake customers can dial down. Now that highlighted dotted red line, that bolded one is Datadog and you can see it's made major strides on the X-axis but its net score has decelerated quite dramatically. Openshift's momentum in the survey has dropped although IBM just announced that OpenShift has a a billion dollar ARR and I suspect what's happening there is IBM consulting is bundling OpenShift into its modernization projects. It's got a, that sort of captive base if you will. And as such it's probably not as top of mind to the respondents but I'll bet you the developers are certainly aware of it. Now the other really notable call out here is CloudFlare, We've reported on them earlier. Cloudflare's net score has held up really well since January of 2021. It really hasn't seen the downdraft of some of these others, but it's making major major moves to the right gaining market presence. We really like how CloudFlare is performing. And the last comment is on Oracle which as you can see, despite its much, much lower net score continues to gain ground in the market and thrive from a profitability standpoint. But the data pretty clearly shows that there's a downdraft in the market. Okay, so what's happening here? Let's dig deeper into this data. Here's a graphic from the most recent ETR drill down asking customers that said they were going to cut spending what technique they're using to do so. Now, as we've previously reported, consolidating redundant vendors is by far the most cited approach but there's two key points we want to make here. One is reducing excess cloud resources. As you can see in the bars is the second most cited technique and it's up from the previous polling period. The second we're not showing, you know directly but we've got some red call outs there. Reducing cloud costs jumps to 29% and 28% respectively in financial services and tech telco. And it's much closer to second. It's basically neck and neck with consolidating redundant vendors in those two industries. So they're being really aggressive about optimizing cloud cost. Okay, so as we said, cloud is great 'cause you can dial it up but it's just as easy to dial down. We've identified six factors that customers tell us are affecting their cloud consumption and there are probably more, if you got more we'd love to hear them but these are the ones that are fairly prominent that have hit our radar. First, rising mortgage rates mean banks are processing fewer loans means less cloud. The crypto crash means less trading activity and that means less cloud resources. Third lower ad spend has led companies to reduce not only you know, their ad buying but also their frequency of running their analytics and their calculations. And they're also often using less data, maybe compressing the timeframe of the corpus down to a shorter time period. Also very prominent is down to the bottom left, using lower cost compute instances. For example, Graviton from AWS or AMD chips and tiering storage to cheaper S3 or deep archived tiers. And finally, optimizing based on better pricing plans. So customers are moving from, you know, smaller companies in particular moving maybe from on demand or other larger companies that are experimenting using on demand or they're moving to spot pricing or reserved instances or optimized savings plans. That all lowers cost and that means less cloud resource consumption and less cloud revenue. Now in the days when everything was on prem CFOs, what would they do? They would freeze CapEx and IT Pros would have to try to do more with less and often that meant a lot of manual tasks. With the cloud it's much easier to move things around. It still takes some thinking and some effort but it's dramatically simpler to do so. So you can get those savings a lot faster. Now of course the other huge factor is you can cut or you can freeze. And this graphic shows data from a recent ETR survey with 159 respondents and you can see the meaningful uptick in hiring freezes, freezing new IT deployments and layoffs. And as we've been reporting, this has been trending up since earlier last year. And note the call out, this is especially prominent in retail sectors, all three of these techniques jump up in retail and that's a bit of a concern because oftentimes consumer spending helps the economy make a softer landing out of a pullback. But this is a potential canary in the coal mine. If retail firms are pulling back it's because consumers aren't spending as much. And so we're keeping a close eye on that. So let's boil this down to the market data and what this all means. So in this graphic we show our estimates for Q4 IaaS revenues compared to the "actual" IaaS revenues. And we say quote because AWS is the only one that reports, you know clean revenue and IaaS, Azure and GCP don't report actuals. Why would they? Because it would make them look even, you know smaller relative to AWS. Rather, they bury the figures in overall cloud which includes their, you know G-Suite for Google and all the Microsoft SaaS. And then they give us little tidbits about in Microsoft's case, Azure, they give growth rates. Google gives kind of relative growth of GCP. So, and we use survey data and you know, other data to try to really pinpoint and we've been covering this for, I don't know, five or six years ever since the cloud really became a thing. But looking at the data, we had AWS growing at 25% this quarter and it came in at 20%. So a significant decline relative to our expectations. AWS announced that it exited December, actually, sorry it's January data showed about a 15% mid-teens growth rate. So that's, you know, something we're watching. Azure was two points off our forecast coming in at 38% growth. It said it exited December in the 35% growth range and it said that it's expecting five points of deceleration off of that. So think 30% for Azure. GCP came in three points off our expectation coming in 35% and Alibaba has yet to report but we've shaved a bid off that forecast based on some survey data and you know what maybe 9% is even still not enough. Now for the year, the big four hyperscalers generated almost 160 billion of revenue, but that was 7 billion lower than what what we expected coming into 2022. For 2023, we're expecting 21% growth for a total of 193.3 billion. And while it's, you know, lower, you know, significantly lower than historical expectations it's still four to five times the overall spending forecast that we just shared with you in our predictions post of between 4 and 5% for the overall market. We think AWS is going to come in in around 93 billion this year with Azure closing in at over 71 billion. This is, again, we're talking IaaS here. Now, despite Amazon focusing investors on the fact that AWS's absolute dollar growth is still larger than its competitors. By our estimates Azure will come in at more than 75% of AWS's forecasted revenue. That's a significant milestone. AWS is operating margins by the way declined significantly this past quarter, dropping from 30% of revenue to 24%, 30% the year earlier to 24%. Now that's still extremely healthy and we've seen wild fluctuations like this before so I don't get too freaked out about that. But I'll say this, Microsoft has a marginal cost advantage relative to AWS because one, it has a captive cloud on which to run its massive software estate. So it can just throw software at its own cloud and two software marginal costs. Marginal economics despite AWS's awesomeness in high degrees of automation, software is just a better business. Now the upshot for AWS is the ecosystem. AWS is essentially in our view positioning very smartly as a platform for data partners like Snowflake and Databricks, security partners like CrowdStrike and Okta and Palo Alto and many others and SaaS companies. You know, Microsoft is more competitive even though AWS does have competitive products. Now of course Amazon's competitive to retail companies so that's another factor but generally speaking for tech players, Amazon is a really thriving ecosystem that is a secret weapon in our view. AWS happy to spin the meter with its partners even though it sells competitive products, you know, more so in our view than other cloud players. Microsoft, of course is, don't forget is hyping now, we're hearing a lot OpenAI and ChatGPT we reported last week in our predictions post. How OpenAI is shot up in terms of market sentiment in ETR's emerging technology company surveys and people are moving to Azure to get OpenAI and get ChatGPT that is a an interesting lever. Amazon in our view has to have a response. They have lots of AI and they're going to have to make some moves there. Meanwhile, Google is emphasizing itself as an AI first company. In fact, Google spent at least five minutes of continuous dialogue, nonstop on its AI chops during its latest earnings call. So that's an area that we're watching very closely as the buzz around large language models continues. All right, let's wrap up with some assumptions for 2023. We think SaaS players are going to continue to be sticky. They're going to be somewhat insulated from all these downdrafts because they're so tied in and customers, you know they make the commitment up front, you've got the lock in. Now having said that, we do expect some backlash over time on the onerous and generally customer unfriendly pricing models of most large SaaS companies. But that's going to play out over a longer period of time. Now for cloud generally and the hyperscalers specifically we do expect accelerating growth rates into Q3 but the amplitude of the demand swings from this rubber band economy, we expect to continue to compress and become more predictable throughout the year. Estimates are coming down, CEOs we think are going to be more cautious when the market snaps back more cautious about hiring and spending and as such a perhaps we expect a more orderly return to growth which we think will slightly accelerate in Q4 as comps get easier. Now of course the big risk to these scenarios is of course the economy, the FED, consumer spending, inflation, supply chain, energy prices, wars, geopolitics, China relations, you know, all the usual stuff. But as always with our partners at ETR and the Cube community, we're here for you. We have the data and we'll be the first to report when we see a change at the margin. Okay, that's a wrap for today. I want to thank Alex Morrison who's on production and manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our Boston studio getting this up on LinkedIn Live. Thank you for that. Kristen Martin also and Cheryl Knight help get the word out on social media and in our newsletters. And Rob Hof is our Editor-in-Chief over at siliconangle.com. He does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these episodes are available as podcast. Wherever you listen, just search Breaking Analysis podcast. I publish each week on wikibon.com, at siliconangle.com where you can see all the data and you want to get in touch. Just all you can do is email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @dvellante if you if you got something interesting, I'll respond. If you don't, it's either 'cause I'm swamped or it's just not tickling me. You can comment on our LinkedIn post as well. And please check out ETR.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube Insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on Breaking Analysis. (gentle upbeat music)

(bright music) >> Hello everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. Got some great coverage here talking about software supply chain and sustainability in the cloud. We've got a great conversation. Gunnar Hellekson, vice president and general manager at Red Hat Enterprise Linux and Business Unit of Red Hat. Thanks for coming on. And Adnan Ijaz, director of product management of commercial software services, AWS. Gentlemen, thanks for joining me today. >> It's a pleasure. (Adnan speaks indistinctly) >> You know, the hottest topic coming out of Cloud Native developer communities is slide chain software sustainability. This is a huge issue. As open source continues to power away and fund and grow this next generation modern development environment, you know, supply chain, you know, sustainability is a huge discussion because you got to check things out, what's in the code. Okay, open source is great, but now we got to commercialize it. This is the topic, Gunnar, let's get in with you. What are you seeing here and what's some of the things that you're seeing around the sustainability piece of it? Because, you know, containers, Kubernetes, we're seeing that that run time really dominate this new abstraction layer, cloud scale. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, so I, it's interesting that the, you know, so Red Hat's been doing this for 20 years, right? Making open source safe to consume in the enterprise. And there was a time when in order to do that you needed to have a long term life cycle and you needed to be very good at remediating security vulnerabilities. And that was kind of, that was the bar that you had to climb over. Nowadays with the number of vulnerabilities coming through, what people are most worried about is, kind of, the providence of the software and making sure that it has been vetted and it's been safe, and that things that you get from your vendor should be more secure than things that you've just downloaded off of GitHub, for example. Right? And that's a place where Red Hat's very comfortable living, right? Because we've been doing it for 20 years. I think there's another aspect to this supply chain question as well, especially with the pandemic. You know, we've got these supply chains have been jammed up. The actual physical supply chains have been jammed up. And the two of these issues actually come together, right? Because as we go through the pandemic, we've got these digital transformation efforts, which are in large part, people creating software in order to manage better their physical supply chain problems. And so as part of that digital transformation, you have another supply chain problem, which is the software supply chain problem, right? And so these two things kind of merge on these as people are trying to improve the performance of transportation systems, logistics, et cetera. Ultimately, it all boils down to, both supply chain problems actually boil down to a software problem. It's very interesting. >> Well, that is interesting. I want to just follow up on that real quick if you don't mind. Because if you think about the convergence of the software and physical world, you know, that's, you know, IOT and also hybridcloud kind of plays into that at scale, this opens up more surface area for attacks, especially when you're under a lot of pressure. This is where, you know, you have a service area on the physical side and you have constraints there. And obviously the pandemic causes problems. But now you've got the software side. How are you guys handling that? Can you just share a little bit more of how you guys looking at that with Red Hat? What's the customer challenge? Obviously, you know, skills gaps is one, but, like, that's a convergence at the same time more security problems. >> Yeah, yeah, that's right. And certainly the volume of, if we just look at security vulnerabilities themselves, just the volume of security vulnerabilities has gone up considerably as more people begin using the software. And as the software becomes more important to, kind of, critical infrastructure. More eyeballs around it and so we're uncovering more problems, which is kind of, that's okay, that's how the world works. And so certainly the number of remediations required every year has gone up. But also the customer expectations, as I mentioned before, the customer expectations have changed, right? People want to be able to show to their auditors and to their regulators that no, in fact, I can show the providence of the software that I'm using. I didn't just download something random off the internet. I actually have like, you know, adults paying attention to how the software gets put together. And it's still, honestly, it's still very early days. I think as an industry, I think we're very good at managing, identifying remediating vulnerabilities in the aggregate. We're pretty good at that. I think things are less clear when we talk about, kind of, the management of that supply chain, proving the providence, and creating a resilient supply chain for software. We have lots of tools, but we don't really have lots of shared expectations. And so it's going to be interesting over the next few years, I think we're going to have more rules are going to come out. I see NIST has already published some of them. And as these new rules come out, the whole industry is going to have to kind of pull together and really rally around some of this shared understanding so we can all have shared expectations and we can all speak the same language when we're talking about this problem. >> That's awesome. Adnan, Amazon web service is obviously the largest cloud platform out there. You know, the pandemic, even post pandemic, some of these supply chain issues, whether it's physical or software, you're also an outlet for that. So if someone can't buy hardware or something physical, they can always get to the cloud. You guys have great network compute and whatnot and you got thousands of ISVs across the globe. How are you helping customers with this supply chain problem? Because whether it's, you know, I need to get in my networking gears and delay, I'm going to go to the cloud and get help there. Or whether it's knowing the workloads and what's going on inside them with respect to open source. 'Cause you've got open source, which is kind of an external forcing function. You've got AWS and you got, you know, physical compute stores, networking, et cetera. How are you guys helping customers with the supply chain challenge, which could be an opportunity? >> Yeah, thanks John. I think there are multiple layers to that. At the most basic level, we are helping customers by abstracting away all these data center constructs that they would have to worry about if they were running their own data centers. They would have to figure out how the networking gear, you talk about, you know, having the right compute, right physical hardware. So by moving to the cloud, at least they're delegating that problem to AWS and letting us manage and making sure that we have an instance available for them whenever they want it. And if they want to scale it, the capacity is there for them to use. Now then, so we kind of give them space to work on the second part of the problem, which is building their own supply chain solutions. And we work with all kinds of customers here at AWS from all different industry segments, automotive, retail, manufacturing. And you know, you see the complexity of the supply chain with all those moving pieces, like hundreds and thousands of moving pieces, it's very daunting. And then on the other hand, customers need more better services. So you need to move fast. So you need to build your agility in the supply chain itself. And that is where, you know, Red Hat and AWS come together. Where we can enable customers to build their supply chain solutions on platforms like Red Hat Enterprise Linux RHEL or Red Hat OpenShift on AWS, we call it ROSA. And the benefit there is that you can actually use the services that are relevant for the supply chain solutions like Amazon managed blockchain, you know, SageMaker. So you can actually build predictive analytics, you can improve forecasting, you can make sure that you have solutions that help you identify where you can cut costs. And so those are some of the ways we're helping customers, you know, figure out how they actually want to deal with the supply chain challenges that we're running into in today's world. >> Yeah, and you know, you mentioned sustainability outside of software sustainability, you know, as people move to the cloud, we've reported on SiliconANGLE here in theCUBE, that it's better to have the sustainability with the cloud because then the data centers aren't using all that energy too. So there's also all kinds of sustainability advantages. Gunnar, because this is kind of how your relationship with Amazon's expanded. You mentioned ROSA, which is Red Hat, you know, on OpenShift, on AWS. This is interesting because one of the biggest discussions is skills gap, but we were also talking about the fact that the humans are a huge part of the talent value. In other words, the humans still need to be involved. And having that relationship with managed services and Red Hat, this piece becomes one of those things that's not talked about much, which is the talent is increasing in value, the humans, and now you got managed services on the cloud. So we'll look at scale and human interaction. Can you share, you know, how you guys are working together on this piece? 'Cause this is interesting, 'cause this kind of brings up the relationship of that operator or developer. >> Yeah, yeah. So I think there's, so I think about this in a few dimensions. First is that it's difficult to find a customer who is not talking about automation at some level right now. And obviously you can automate the processes and the physical infrastructure that you already have, that's using tools like Ansible, right? But I think that combining it with the elasticity of a solution like AWS, so you combine the automation with kind of elastic and converting a lot of the capital expenses into operating expenses, that's a great way actually to save labor, right? So instead of like racking hard drives, you can have somebody do something a little more like, you know, more valuable work, right? And so, okay, but that gives you a platform. And then what do you do with that platform? You know, if you've got your systems automated and you've got this kind of elastic infrastructure underneath you, what you do on top of it is really interesting. So a great example of this is the collaboration that we had with running the RHEL workstation on AWS. So you might think, like, well why would anybody want to run a workstation on a cloud? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Unless you consider how complex it is to set up, if you have, the use case here is like industrial workstations, right? So it's animators, people doing computational fluid dynamics, things like this. So these are industries that are extremely data heavy. Workstations have very large hardware requirements, often with accelerated GPUs and things like this. That is an extremely expensive thing to install on-premise anywhere. And if the pandemic taught us anything, it's if you have a bunch of very expensive talent and they all have to work from home, it is very difficult to go provide them with, you know, several tens of thousands of dollars worth of workstation equipment. And so combine the RHEL workstation with the AWS infrastructure and now all that workstation computational infrastructure is available on demand and available right next to the considerable amount of data that they're analyzing or animating or working on. So it's a really interesting, it was actually, this is an idea that was actually born with the pandemic. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of a combination of everything that we're talking about, right? It's the supply chain challenges of the customer, it's the lack of talent, making sure that people are being put to their best and highest use. And it's also having this kind of elastic, I think, OpEx heavy infrastructure as opposed to a CapEx heavy infrastructure. >> That's a great example. I think that illustrates to me what I love about cloud right now is that you can put stuff in the cloud and then flex what you need, when you need it, in the cloud rather than either ingress or egress of data. You just get more versatility around the workload needs, whether it's more compute or more storage or other high level services. This is kind of where this next gen cloud is going. This is where customers want to go once their workloads are up and running. How do you simplify all this and how do you guys look at this from a joint customer perspective? Because that example I think will be something that all companies will be working on, which is put it in the cloud and flex to whatever the workload needs and put it closer to the compute. I want to put it there. If I want to leverage more storage and networking, well, I'll do that too. It's not one thing, it's got to flex around. How are you guys simplifying this? >> Yeah, I think, so, I'll give my point of view and then I'm very curious to hear what Adnan has to say about it. But I think about it in a few dimensions, right? So there is a technically, like, any solution that Adnan's team and my team want to put together needs to be kind of technically coherent, right? Things need to work well together. But that's not even most of the job. Most of the job is actually ensuring an operational consistency and operational simplicity, so that everything is, the day-to-day operations of these things kind of work well together. And then also, all the way to things like support and even acquisition, right? Making sure that all the contracts work together, right? It's a really... So when Adnan and I think about places of working together, it's very rare that we're just looking at a technical collaboration. It's actually a holistic collaboration across support, acquisition, as well as all the engineering that we have to do. >> Adnan, your view on how you're simplifying it with Red Hat for your joint customers making collaborations? >> Yeah, Gunnar covered it well. I think the benefit here is that Red Hat has been the leading Linux distribution provider. So they have a lot of experience. AWS has been the leading cloud provider. So we have both our own points of view, our own learning from our respective set of customers. So the way we try to simplify and bring these things together is working closely. In fact, I sometimes joke internally that if you see Gunnar and my team talking to each other on a call, you cannot really tell who belongs to which team. Because we're always figuring out, okay, how do we simplify discount experience? How do we simplify programs? How do we simplify go to market? How do we simplify the product pieces? So it's really bringing our learning and share our perspective to the table and then really figure out how do we actually help customers make progress. ROSA that we talked about is a great example of that, you know, together we figured out, hey, there is a need for customers to have this capability in AWS and we went out and built it. So those are just some of the examples in how both teams are working together to simplify the experience, make it complete, make it more coherent. >> Great, that's awesome. Next question is really around how you help organizations with the sustainability piece, how to support them simplifying it. But first, before we get into that, what is the core problem around this sustainability discussion we're talking about here, supply chain sustainability, what is the core challenge? Can you both share your thoughts on what that problem is and what the solution looks like and then we can get into advice? >> Yeah. Well from my point of view, it's, I think, you know, one of the lessons of the last three years is every organization is kind of taking a careful look at how resilient it is, or I should say, every organization learned exactly how resilient it was, right? And that comes from both the physical challenges and the logistics challenges that everyone had, the talent challenges you mentioned earlier. And of course the software challenges, you know, as everyone kind of embarks on this digital transformation journey that we've all been talking about. And I think, so I really frame it as resilience, right? And resilience at bottom is really about ensuring that you have options and that you have choices. The more choices you have, the more options you have, the more resilient you and your organization is going to be. And so I know that's how I approach the market. I'm pretty sure that's how Adnan is approaching the market, is ensuring that we are providing as many options as possible to customers so that they can assemble the right pieces to create a solution that works for their particular set of challenges or their unique set of challenges and unique context. Adnan, does that sound about right to you? >> Yeah, I think you covered it well. I can speak to another aspect of sustainability, which is becoming increasingly top of mind for our customers. Like, how do they build products and services and solutions and whether it's supply chain or anything else which is sustainable, which is for the long term good of the planet. And I think that is where we have also been very intentional and focused in how we design our data center, how we actually build our cooling system so that those are energy efficient. You know, we are on track to power all our operations with renewable energy by 2025, which is five years ahead of our initial commitment. And perhaps the most obvious example of all of this is our work with ARM processors, Graviton3, where, you know, we are building our own chip to make sure that we are designing energy efficiency into the process. And you know, the ARM Graviton3 processor chips, they are about 60% more energy efficient compared to some of the CD6 comparable. So all those things that also we are working on in making sure that whatever our customers build on our platform is long term sustainable. So that's another dimension of how we are working that into our platform. >> That's awesome. This is a great conversation. You know, the supply chain is on both sides, physical and software. You're starting to see them come together in great conversations. And certainly moving workloads to the cloud and running them more efficiently will help on the sustainability side, in my opinion. Of course, you guys talked about that and we've covered it. But now you start getting into how to refactor, and this is a big conversation we've been having lately is as you not just lift and shift, but replatform it and refactor, customers are seeing great advantages on this. So I have to ask you guys, how are you helping customers and organizations support sustainability and simplify the complex environment that has a lot of potential integrations? Obviously API's help of course, but that's the kind of baseline. What's the advice that you give customers? 'Cause you know, it can look complex and it becomes complex, but there's an answer here. What's your thoughts? >> Yeah, I think, so whenever I get questions like this from customers, the first thing I guide them to is, we talked earlier about this notion of consistency and how important that is. One way to solve the problem is to create an entirely new operational model, an entirely new acquisition model, and an entirely new stack of technologies in order to be more sustainable. That is probably not in the cards for most folks. What they want to do is have their existing estate and they're trying to introduce sustainability into the work that they are already doing. They don't need to build another silo in order to create sustainability, right? And so there has to be some common threads, there has to be some common platforms across the existing estate and your more sustainable estate, right? And so things like Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which can provide this kind of common, not just a technical substrate, but a common operational substrate on which you can build these solutions. If you have a common platform on which you are building solutions, whether it's RHEL or whether it's OpenShift or any of our other platforms, that creates options for you underneath. So that in some cases maybe you need to run things on-premises, some things you need to run in the cloud, but you don't have to profoundly change how you work when you're moving from one place to another. >> Adnan, what's your thoughts on the simplification? >> Yeah, I mean, when you talk about replatforming and refactoring, it is a daunting undertaking, you know, especially in today's fast paced world. But the good news is you don't have to do it by yourself. Customers don't have to do it on their own. You know, together AWS and Red Hat, we have our rich partner ecosystem, you know, AWS has over 100,000 partners that can help you take that journey, the transformation journey. And within AWS and working with our partners like Red Hat, we make sure that we have- In my mind, there are really three big pillars that you have to have to make sure that customers can successfully re-platform, refactor their applications to the modern cloud architecture. You need to have the rich set of services and tools that meet their different scenarios, different use cases. Because no one size fits all. You have to have the right programs because sometimes customers need those incentives, they need those, you know, that help in the first step. And last but not least, they need training. So all of that, we try to cover that as we work with our customers, work with our partners. And that is where, you know, together we try to help customers take that step, which is a challenging step to take. >> Yeah, you know, it's great to talk to you guys, both leaders in your field. Obviously Red Hats, I remember the days back when I was provisioning and loading OSs on hardware with CDs, if you remember those days, Gunnar. But now with the high level services, if you look at this year's reinvent, and this is kind of my final question for the segment is, that we'll get your reaction to, last year we talked about higher level service. I sat down with Adam Saleski, we talked about that. If you look at what's happened this year, you're starting to see people talk about their environment as their cloud. So Amazon has the gift of the CapEx, all that investment and people can operate on top of it. They're calling that environment their cloud. Okay? For the first time we're seeing this new dynamic where it's like they have a cloud, but Amazon's the CapEx, they're operating. So, you're starting to see the operational visibility, Gunnar, around how to operate this environment. And it's not hybrid, this, that, it's just, it's cloud. This is kind of an inflection point. Do you guys agree with that or have a reaction to that statement? Because I think this is, kind of, the next gen supercloud-like capability. We're going, we're building the cloud. It's now an environment. It's not talking about private cloud, this cloud, it's all cloud. What's your reaction? >> Yeah, I think, well, I think it's very natural. I mean, we use words like hybridcloud, multicloud, I guess supercloud is what the kids are saying now, right? It's all describing the same phenomena, right? Which is being able to take advantage of lots of different infrastructure options, but still having something that creates some commonality among them so that you can manage them effectively, right? So that you can have, kind of, uniform compliance across your estate. So that you can have, kind of, you can make the best use of your talent across the estate. I mean this is, it's a very natural thing. >> John: They're calling it cloud, the estate is the cloud. >> Yeah. So yeah, so fine, if it means that we no longer have to argue about what's multicloud and what's hybridcloud, I think that's great. Let's just call it cloud. >> Adnan, what's your reaction, 'cause this is kind of the next gen benefits of higher level services combined with amazing, you know, compute and resource at the infrastructure level. What's your view on that? >> Yeah, I think the construct of a unified environment makes sense for customers who have all these use cases which require, like for instance, if you are doing some edge computing and you're running WS outpost or you know, wavelength and these things. So, and it is fair for customer to think that, hey, this is one environment, same set of tooling that they want to build that works across all their different environments. That is why we work with partners like Red Hat so that customers who are running Red Hat Enterprise Linux on-premises and who are running in AWS get the same level of support, get the same level of security features, all of that. So from that sense, it actually makes sense for us to build these capabilities in a way that customers don't have to worry about, okay, now I'm actually in the AWS data center versus I'm running outpost on-premises. It is all one. They just use the same set of CLI, command line APIs and all of that. So in that sense it actually helps customers have that unification so that consistency of experience helps their workforce and be more productive versus figuring out, okay, what do I do, which tool I use where? >> Adnan, you just nailed it. This is about supply chain sustainability, moving the workloads into a cloud environment. You mentioned wavelength, this conversation's going to continue. We haven't even talked about the edge yet. This is something that's going to be all about operating these workloads at scale and all with the cloud services. So thanks for sharing that and we'll pick up that edge piece later. But for re:Invent right now, this is really the key conversation. How to make the sustained supply chain work in a complex environment, making it simpler. And so thanks you for sharing your insights here on theCUBE. >> Thanks, thanks for having us. >> Okay, this is theCUBE's coverage of AWS re:Invent 22. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (bright music)

foreign welcome back to re invent 2022 we're wrapping up four days well one evening and three solid days wall-to-wall of cube coverage I'm Dave vellante John furrier's birthday is today he's on a plane to London to go see his nephew get married his his great Sister Janet awesome family the furriers uh spanning the globe and uh and John I know you wanted to be here you're watching in Newark or you were waiting to uh to get in the plane so all the best to you happy birthday one year the Amazon PR people brought a cake out to celebrate John's birthday because he's always here at AWS re invented his birthday so I'm really pleased to have two really special guests uh former Cube host Cube Alum great wikibon contributor Stu miniman now with red hat still good to see you again great to be here Dave yeah I was here for that cake uh the twitterverse uh was uh really helping to celebrate John's birthday today and uh you know always great to be here with you and then with this you know Awesome event this week and friend of the cube of many time Cube often Cube contributor as here's a cube analyst this week as his own consultancy sarbj johal great to see you thanks for coming on good to see you Dave uh great to see you stu I'm always happy to participate in these discussions and um I enjoy the discussion every time so this is kind of cool because you know usually the last day is a getaway day and this is a getaway day but this place is still packed I mean it's I mean yeah it's definitely lighter you can at least walk and not get slammed but I subjit I'm going to start with you I I wanted to have you as the the tail end here because cause you participated in the analyst sessions you've been watching this event from from the first moment and now you've got four days of the Kool-Aid injection but you're also talking to customers developers Partners the ecosystem where do you want to go what's your big takeaways I think big takeaways that Amazon sort of innovation machine is chugging along they are I was listening to some of the accessions and when I was back to my room at nine so they're filling the holes in some areas but in some areas they're moving forward there's a lot to fix still it doesn't seem like that it seems like we are done with the cloud or The Innovation is done now we are building at the millisecond level so where do you go next there's a lot of room to grow on the storage side on the network side uh the improvements we need and and also making sure that the software which is you know which fits the hardware like there's a specialized software um sorry specialized hardware for certain software you know so there was a lot of talk around that and I attended some of those sessions where I asked the questions around like we have a specialized database for each kind of workload specialized processes processors for each kind of workload yeah the graviton section and actually the the one interesting before I forget that the arbitration was I asked that like why there are so many so many databases and IRS for the egress costs and all that stuff can you are you guys thinking about reducing that you know um the answer was no egress cost is not a big big sort of uh um show stopper for many of the customers but but the from all that sort of little discussion with with the folks sitting who build these products over there was that the plethora of choice is given to the customers to to make them feel that there's no vendor lock-in so if you are using some open source you know um soft software it can be on the you know platform side or can be database side you have database site you have that option at AWS so this is a lot there because I always thought that that AWS is the mother of all lock-ins but it's got an ecosystem and we're going to talk about exactly we'll talk about Stu what's working within AWS when you talk to customers and where are the challenges yeah I I got a comment on open source Dave of course there because I mean look we criticized to Amazon for years about their lack of contribution they've gotten better they're doing more in open source but is Amazon the mother of all lock-ins many times absolutely there's certain people inside Amazon I'm saying you know many of us talk Cloud native they're like well let's do Amazon native which means you're like full stack is things from Amazon and do things the way that we want to do things and you know I talk to a lot of customers they use more than one Cloud Dave and therefore certain things absolutely I want to Leverage The Innovation that Amazon has brought I do think we're past building all the main building blocks in many ways we are like in day two yes Amazon is fanatically customer focused and will always stay that way but you know there wasn't anything that jumped out at me last year or this year that was like Wow new category whole new way of thinking about something we're in a vocals last year Dave said you know we have over 200 services and if we listen to you the customer we'd have over two thousand his session this week actually got some great buzz from my friends in the serverless ecosystem they love some of the things tying together we're using data the next flywheel that we're going to see for the next 10 years Amazon's at the center of the cloud ecosystem in the IT world so you know there's a lot of good things here and to your point Dave the ecosystem one of the things I always look at is you know was there a booth that they're all going to be crying in their beer after Amazon made an announcement there was not a tech vendor that I saw this week that was like oh gosh there was an announcement and all of a sudden our business is gone where I did hear some rumbling is Amazon might be the next GSI to really move forward and we've seen all the gsis pushing really deep into supporting Cloud bringing workloads to the cloud and there's a little bit of rumbling as to that balance between what Amazon will do and their uh their go to market so a couple things so I think I think we all agree that a lot of the the announcements here today were taping seams right I call it and as it relates to the mother of all lock-in the reason why I say that it's it's obviously very much a pejorative compare Oracle company you know really well with Amazon's lock-in for Amazon's lock-in is about bringing this ecosystem together so that you actually have Choice Within the the house so you don't have to leave you know there's a there's a lot to eat at the table yeah you look at oracle's ecosystem it's like yeah you know oracle is oracle's ecosystem so so that is how I think they do lock in customers by incenting them not to leave because there's so much Choice Dave I agree with you a thousand I mean I'm here I'm a I'm a good partner of AWS and all of the partners here want to be successful with Amazon and Amazon is open to that it's not our way or get out which Oracle tries how much do you extract from the overall I.T budget you know are you a YouTube where you give the people that help you create a large sum of the money YouTube hasn't been all that profitable Amazon I think is doing a good balance of the ecosystem makes money you know we used to talk Dave about you know how much dollars does VMware make versus there um I think you know Amazon is a much bigger you know VMware 2.0 we used to think talk about all the time that VMware for every dollar spent on VMware licenses 15 or or 12 or 20 were spent in the ecosystem I would think the ratio is even higher here sarbji and an Oracle I would say it's I don't know yeah actually 1 to 0.5 maybe I don't know but I want to pick on your discussion about the the ecosystem the the partner ecosystem is so it's it's robust strong because it's wider I was I was not saying that there's no lock-in with with Amazon right AWS there's lock-in there's lock-in with everything there's lock-in with open source as well but but the point is that they're they're the the circle is so big you don't feel like locked in but they're playing smart as well they're bringing in the software the the platforms from the open source they're picking up those packages and saying we'll bring it in and cater that to you through AWS make it better perform better and also throw in their custom chips on top of that hey this MySQL runs better here so like what do you do I said oh Oracle because it's oracle's product if you will right so they are I think think they're filing or not slenders from their go to market strategy from their engineering and they listen to they're listening to customers like very closely and that has sort of side effects as well listening to customers creates a sprawl of services they have so many services and I criticized them last year for calling everything a new service I said don't call it a new service it's a feature of a existing service sure a lot of features a lot of features this is egress our egress costs a real problem or is it just the the on-prem guys picking at the the scab I mean what do you hear from customers so I mean Dave you know I I look at what Corey Quinn talks about all the time and Amazon charges on that are more expensive than any other Cloud the cloud providers and partly because Amazon is you know probably not a word they'd use they are dominant when it comes to the infrastructure space and therefore they do want to make it a little bit harder to do that they can get away with it um because um yeah you know we've seen some of the cloud providers have special Partnerships where you can actually you know leave and you're not going to be charged and Amazon they've been a little bit more flexible but absolutely I've heard customers say that they wish some good tunning and tongue-in-cheek stuff what else you got we lay it on us so do our players okay this year I think the focus was on the upside it's shifting gradually this was more focused on offside there were less talk of of developers from the main stage from from all sort of quadrants if you will from all Keynotes right so even Werner this morning he had a little bit for he was talking about he he was talking he he's job is to Rally up the builders right yeah so he talks about the go build right AWS pipes I thought was kind of cool then I said like I'm making glue easier I thought that was good you know I know some folks don't use that I I couldn't attend the whole session but but I heard in between right so it is really adopt or die you know I am Cloud Pro for last you know 10 years and I think it's the best model for a technology consumption right um because of economies of scale but more importantly because of division of labor because of specialization because you can't afford to hire the best security people the best you know the arm chip designers uh you can't you know there's one actually I came up with a bumper sticker you guys talked about bumper sticker I came up with that like last couple of weeks The Innovation favorite scale they have scale they have Innovation so that's where the Innovation is and it's it's not there again they actually say the market sets the price Market you as a customer don't set the price the vendor doesn't set the price Market sets the price so if somebody's complaining about their margins or egress and all that I think that's BS um yeah I I have a few more notes on the the partner if you you concur yeah Dave you know with just coming back to some of this commentary about like can Amazon actually enable something we used to call like Community clouds uh your companies like you know Goldman and NASDAQ and the like where Industries will actually be able to share data uh and you know expand the usage and you know Amazon's going to help drive that API economy forward some so it's good to see those things because you know we all know you know all of us are smarter than just any uh single company together so again some of that's open source but some of that is you know I think Amazon is is you know allowing Innovation to thrive I think the word you're looking for is super cloud there well yeah I mean it it's uh Dave if you want to go there with the super cloud because you know there's a metaphor for exactly what you described NASDAQ Goldman Sachs we you know and and you know a number of other companies that are few weeks at the Berkeley Sky Computing paper yeah you know that's a former supercloud Dave Linthicum calls it metacloud I'm not really careful I mean you know I go back to the the challenge we've been you know working at for a decade is the distributed architecture you know if you talk about AI architectures you know what lives in the cloud what lives at the edge where do we train things where do we do inferences um locations should matter a lot less Amazon you know I I didn't hear a lot about it this show but when they came out with like local zones and oh my gosh out you know all the things that Amazon is building to push out to the edge and also enabling that technology and software and the partner ecosystem helps expand that and Pull It in it's no longer you know Dave it was Hotel California all of the data eventually is going to end up in the public cloud and lock it in it's like I don't think that's going to be the case we know that there will be so much data out at the edge Amazon absolutely is super important um there some of those examples we're giving it's not necessarily multi-cloud but there's collaboration happening like in the healthcare world you know universities and hospitals can all share what they're doing uh regardless of you know where they live well Stephen Armstrong in the analyst session did say that you know we're going to talk about multi-cloud we're not going to lead with it necessarily but we are going to actually talk about it and that's different to your points too than in the fullness of time all the data will be in the cloud that's a new narrative but go ahead yeah actually Amazon is a leader in the cloud so if they push the cloud even if they don't say AWS or Amazon with it they benefit from it right and and the narrative is that way there's the proof is there right so again Innovation favorite scale there are chips which are being made for high scale their software being tweaked for high scale you as a Bank of America or for the Chrysler as a typical Enterprise you cannot afford to do those things in-house what cloud providers can I'm not saying just AWS Google cloud is there Azure guys are there and few others who are behind them and and you guys are there as well so IBM has IBM by the way congratulations to your red hat I know but IBM won the award um right you know very good partner and yeah but yeah people are dragging their feet people usually do on the change and they are in denial denial they they drag their feet and they came in IBM director feed the cave Den Dell drag their feed the cave in yeah you mean by Dragon vs cloud deniers cloud deniers right so server Huggers I call them but they they actually are sitting in Amazon Cloud Marketplace everybody is buying stuff from there the marketplace is the new model OKAY Amazon created the marketplace for b2c they are leading the marketplace of B2B as well on the technology side and other people are copying it so there are multiple marketplaces now so now actually it's like if you're in in a mobile app development there are two main platforms Android and Apple you first write the application for Apple right then for Android hex same here as a technology provider as and I I and and I actually you put your stuff to AWS first then you go anywhere else yeah they are later yeah the Enterprise app store is what we've wanted for a long time the question is is Amazon alone the Enterprise app store or are they partner of a of a larger portfolio because there's a lot of SAS companies out there uh that that play into yeah what we need well and this is what you're talking about the future but I just want to make a point about the past you talking about dragging their feet because the Cube's been following this and Stu you remember this in 2013 IBM actually you know got in a big fight with with Amazon over the CIA deal you know and it all became public judge wheeler eviscerated you know IBM and it ended up IBM ended up buying you know soft layer and then we know what happened there and it Joe Tucci thought the cloud was Mosey right so it's just amazing to see we have booksellers you know VMware called them books I wasn't not all of them are like talking about how great Partnerships they are it's amazing like you said sub GC and IBM uh with the the GSI you know Partnership of the year but what you guys were just talking about was the future and that's what I wanted to get to is because you know Amazon's been leading the way I I was listening to Werner this morning and that just reminded me of back in the days when we used to listen to IBM educate us give us a master class on system design and decoupled systems and and IO and everything else now Amazon is you know the master educator and it got me thinking how long will that last you know will they go the way of you know the other you know incumbents will they be disrupted or will they you know keep innovating maybe it's going to take 10 or 20 years I don't know yeah I mean Dave you actually you did some research I believe it was a year or so ago yeah but what will stop Amazon and the one thing that worries me a little bit um is the two Pizza teams when you have over 202 Pizza teams the amount of things that each one of those groups needs to take care of was more than any human could take care of people burn out they run out of people how many amazonians only last two or three years and then leave because it is tough I bumped into plenty of friends of mine that have been you know six ten years at Amazon and love it but it is a tough culture and they are driving werner's keynote I thought did look to from a product standpoint you could say tape over some of the seams some of those solutions to bring Beyond just a single product and bring them together and leverage data so there are some signs that they might be able to get past some of those limitations but I still worry structurally culturally there could be some challenges for Amazon to keep the momentum going especially with the global economic impact that we are likely to see in the next year bring us home I think the future side like we could talk about the vendors all day right to serve the community out there I think we should talk about how what's the future of technology consumption from the consumer side so from the supplier side just a quick note I think the only danger AWS has has that that you know Fred's going after them you know too big you know like we will break you up and that can cause some disruption there other than that I think they they have some more steam to go for a few more years at least before we start thinking about like oh this thing is falling apart or anything like that so they have a lot more they have momentum and it's continuing so okay from the I think game is on retail by the way is going to get disrupted before AWS yeah go ahead from the buyer's side I think um the the future of the sort of Technology consumption is based on the paper uh use and they actually are turning all their services to uh they are sort of becoming serverless behind the scenes right all analytics service they had one service left they they did that this year so every service is serverless so that means you pay exactly for the amount you use the compute the iops the the storage so all these three layers of course Network we talked about the egress stuff and that's a problem there because of the network design mainly because Google has a flatter design and they have lower cost so so they are actually squeezing the their their designing this their services in a way that you don't waste any resources as a buyer so for example very simple example when early earlier In This Cloud you will get a VM right in Cloud that's how we started so and you can get 20 use 20 percent of the VM 80 is getting wasted that's not happening now that that has been reduced to the most extent so now your VM grows as you grow the usage and if you go higher than the tier you picked they will charge you otherwise they will not charge you extra so that's why there's still a lot of instances like many different types you have to pick one I think the future is that those instances will go away the the instance will be formed for you on the fly so that is the future serverless all right give us bumper sticker Stu and then Serb G I'll give you my quick one and then we'll wrap yeah so just Dave to play off of sharp G and to wrap it up you actually wrote about it on your preview post for here uh serverless we're talking about how developers think about things um and you know Amazon in many ways you know is the new default server uh you know for the cloud um and containerization fits into the whole serverless Paradigm uh it's the space that I live in uh you know every day here and you know I was happy to see the last few years serverless and containers there's a blurring a line and you know subject we're still going to see VMS for a long time yeah yeah we will see that so give us give us your book Instagram my number six is innovation favorite scale that's my bumper sticker and and Amazon has that but also I I want everybody else to like the viewers to take a look at the the Google Cloud as well as well as IBM with others like maybe you have a better price to Performance there for certain workloads and by the way one vendor cannot do it alone we know that for sure the market is so big there's a lot of room for uh Red Hats of the world and and and Microsoft's the world to innovate so keep an eye on them they we need the competition actually and that's why competition Will Keep Us to a place where Market sets the price one vendor doesn't so the only only danger is if if AWS is a monopoly then I will be worried I think ecosystems are the Hallmark of a great Cloud company and Amazon's got the the biggest and baddest ecosystem and I think the other thing to watch for is Industries building on top of the cloud you mentioned the Goldman Sachs NASDAQ Capital One and Warner media these all these industries are building their own clouds and that's where the real money is going to be made in the latter half of the 2020s all right we're a wrap this is Dave Valente I want to first of all thank thanks to our great sponsors AWS for for having us here this is our 10th year at the cube AMD you know sponsoring as well the the the cube here Accenture sponsor to third set upstairs upstairs on the fifth floor all the ecosystem partners that came on the cube this week and supported our mission for free content our content is always free we try to give more to the community and we we take back so go to thecube.net and you'll see all these videos go to siliconangle com for all the news wikibon.com I publish weekly a breaking analysis series I want to thank our amazing crew here you guys we have probably 30 35 people unbelievable our awesome last session John Walls uh Paul Gillen Lisa Martin Savannah Peterson John Furrier who's on a plane we appreciate Andrew and Leonard in our ear and all of our our crew Palo Alto Boston and across the country thank you so much really appreciate it all right we are a wrap AWS re invent 2022 we'll see you in two weeks we'll see you two weeks at Palo Alto ignite back here in Vegas thanks for watching thecube the leader in Enterprise and emerging Tech coverage [Music]

>>Hello, brilliant humans and welcome back to Las Vegas, Nevada, where we are live from the AWS Reinvent Show floor here with the cube. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined with Dave Valante, and we have a very exciting conversation with you. Two, two companies you may have heard of. We've got AWS and Red Hat in the house. Manu and Joel, thank you so much for being here. Love this little fist bump. Started off, that's right. Before we even got rolling, Manu, you said that you wanted this to be the best segment of, of the cubes airing. We we're doing over a hundred segments, so you're gonna have to bring the heat. >>We're ready. We're did go. Are we ready? Yeah, go. We're ready. Let's bring it on. >>We're ready. All right. I'm, I'm ready. Dave's ready. Let's do it. How's the show going for you guys real quick before we dig in? >>Yeah, I think after Covid, it's really nice to see that we're back into the 2019 level and, you know, people just want to get out, meet people, have that human touch with each other, and I think a lot of trust gets built as a functional that, so it's super amazing to see our partners and customers here at Reedman. Yeah, >>And you've got a few in the house. That's true. Just a few maybe, maybe a couple >>Very few shows can say that, by the way. Yeah, it's maybe a handful. >>I think one of the things we were saying, it's almost like the entire Silicon Valley descended in the expo hall area, so >>Yeah, it's >>For a few different reasons. There's a few different silicon defined. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't have strong on for you. So far >>It's, it's, it is amazing. It's the 10th year, right? It's decade, I think I've been to five and it's, it grows every single year. It's the, you have to be here. It's as simple as that. And customers from every single industry are here too. You don't get, a lot of shows have every single industry and almost every single location around the globe. So it's, it's a must, must be >>Here. Well, and the personas evolved, right? I was at reinvent number two. That was my first, and it was all developers, not all, but a lot of developers. And today it's a business mix, really is >>Totally, is a business mix. And I just, I've talked about it a little bit down the show, but the diversity on the show floor, it's the first time I've had to wait in line for the ladies' room at a tech conference. Almost a two decade career. It is, yeah. And it was really refreshing. I'm so impressed. So clearly there's a commitment to community, but also a commitment to diversity. Yeah. And, and it's brilliant to see on the show floor. This is a partnership that is robust and has been around for a little while. Money. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the partnership here? >>Yes. So Red Hand and AWS are best friends, you know, forever together. >>Aw, no wonder we got the fist bumps and all the good vibes coming out. I know, it's great. I love that >>We have a decade of working together. I think the relationship in the first phase was around running rail bundled with E two. Sure. We have about 70,000 customers that are running rail, which are running mission critical workloads such as sap, Oracle databases, bespoke applications across the state of verticals. Now, as more and more enterprise customers are finally, you know, endorsing and adopting public cloud, I think that business is just gonna continue to grow. So a, a lot of progress there. The second titration has been around, you know, developers tearing Red Hat and aws, Hey, listen, we wanna, it's getting competitive. We wanna deliver new features faster, quicker, we want scale and we want resilience. So just entire push towards devs containers. So that's the second chapter with, you know, red Hat OpenShift on aws, which launched as a, a joint manage service in 2021 last year. And I think the third phase, which you're super excited about, is just bringing the ease of consumption, one click deployment, and then having our customers, you know, benefit from the joint committed spend programs together. So, you know, making sure that re and Ansible and JBoss, the entire portfolio of Red Hat products are available on AWS marketplace. So that's the 1, 2, 3, it of our relationship. It's a decade of working together and, you know, best friends are super committed to making sure our customers and partners continue successful. >>Yeah, that he said it, he said it perfectly. 2008, I know you don't like that, but we started with Rel on demand just in 2008 before E two even had a console. So the partnership has been there, like Manu says, for a long time, we got the partnership, we got the products up there now, and we just gotta finalize that, go to market and get that gas on the fire. >>Yeah. So Graviton Outpost, local zones, you lead it into all the new stuff. So that portends, I mean, 2008, we're talking two years after the launch of s3. >>That's right. >>Right. So, and now look, so is this a harbinger of things to come with these new innovations? >>Yeah, I, I would say, you know, the innovation is a key tenant of our partnership, our relationship. So if you look at from a product standpoint, red Hat or Rel was one of the first platforms that made a support for graviton, which is basically 40% better price performance than any other distribution. Then that translated into making sure that Rel is available on all of our regions globally. So this year we launched Switzerland, Spain, India, and Red Hat was available on launch there, support for Nitro support for Outpost Rosa support on Outpost as well. So I think that relationship, that innovation on the product side, that's pretty visible. I think that innovation again then translates into what we are doing on marketplace with one click deployments we spoke about. I think the third aspect of the know innovation is around making sure that we are making our partners and our customers successful. So one of the things that we've done so far is Joe leads a, you know, a black belt team that really goes into each customer opportunity, making sure how can we help you be successful. We launched and you know, we should be able to share that on a link. After this, we launched like a big playlist, which talks about every single use case on how do you get successful and running OpenShift on aws. So that innovation on behalf of our customers partners to make them successful, that's been a key tenant for us together as >>Well. That's right. And that team that Manu is talking about, we're gonna, gonna 10 x that team this year going into January. Our fiscal yield starts in January. Love that. So yeah, we're gonna have a lot of no hiring freeze over here. Nope. No ma'am. No. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And you know what I love about working with aws and, and, and Manu just said it very, all of that's customer driven. Every single event that we, that he just talked about in that timeline, it's customer driven, right? Customers wanted rail on demand, customers want JBoss up in the cloud, Ansible this week, you know, everything's up there now. So it's just getting that go to market tight and we're gonna, we're gonna get that done. >>So what's the algorithm for customer driven in terms of taking the input? Because if every customers saying, Hey, I this a >>Really similar >>Question right up, right? I, that's what I want. And if you know, 95% of the customers say it, Jay, maybe that's a good idea. >>Yeah, that's right. Trends. But >>Yeah. You know, 30% you might be like, mm, you know, 20%, you know, how do you guys decide when to put gas on the fire? >>No, that, I think, as I mentioned, there are about 70,000 large customers that are running rail on Easy Two, many of these customers are informing our product strategy. So we have, you know, close to about couple of thousand power users. We have customer advisory booths, and these are the, you know, customers are informing us, Hey, let's get all of the Red Hat portfolio and marketplace support for graviton, support for Outpost. Why don't we, why are we not able to dip into the consumption committed spend programs for both Red Hat and aws? That's right. So it's these power users both at the developer level as well as the guys who are actually doing large commercial consumption. They are the ones who are informing the roadmap for both Red Hat and aws. >>But do, do you codify the the feedback? >>Yeah, I'm like, I wanna see the database, >>The, I think it was, I don't know, it was maybe Chasy, maybe it was Besos, that that data beats intuition. So do you take that information and somehow, I mean, it's global, 70,000 customers, right? And they have different weights, different spending patterns, different levels of maturity. Yeah. Do you, how do you codify that and then ultimately make the decision? Yeah, I >>If, I mean, well you, you've got the strategic advisory boards, which are made up of customers and partners and you know, you get, you get a good, you gotta get a good slice of your customer base to get, and you gotta take their feedback and you gotta do something with it, right? That's the, that's the way we do it and codify it at the product level, I'm sure open source. That's, that's basically how we work at the product level, right? The most elegant solution in open source wins. And that's, that's pretty much how we do that at the, >>I would just add, I think it's also just the implicit trust that the two companies had built with each other, working in the trenches, making our customers and partners successful over the last decade. And Alex, give an example. So that manifests itself in context of like, you know, Amazon and Red Hat just published the entire roadmap for OpenShift. What are the new features that are becoming over the next six to nine to 12 months? It's open source available on GitHub. Customers can see, and then they can basically come back and give feedback like, Hey, you know, we want hip compliance. We just launched. That was a big request that was coming from our >>Customers. That is not any process >>Also for Graviton or Nvidia instances. So I I I think it's a, >>Here's the thing, the reason I'm pounding on this is because you guys have a pretty high hit rate, and I think as a >>Customer, mildly successful company >>As, as a customer advocate, the better, you know, if, if you guys make bets that pay off, it's gonna pay off for customers. Right. And because there's a lot of failures in it. Yeah. I mean, let's face it. That's >>Right. And I think, I think you said the key word bets. You place a lot of small bets. Do you have the, the innovation engine to do that? AWS is the perfect place to place those small bets. And then you, you know, pour gas on the fire when, when they take off. >>Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, it's not expensive to experiment. Yeah. >>Especially in the managed service world. Right? >>And I know you love taking things to market and you're a go to market guy. Let's talk gtm, what's got your snow pumped about GTM for 2023? >>We, we are gonna, you know, 10 x the teams that's gonna be focused on these products, right? So we're gonna also come out with a hybrid committed spend program for our customers that meet them where they want to go. So they're coming outta the data center going into a cloud. We're gonna have a nice financial model for them to do that. And that's gonna take a lot of the friction out. >>Yeah. I mean, you've nailed it. I, I think the, the fact that now entire Red Hat portfolio is available on marketplace, you can do it on one click deployment. It's deeply integrated with Amazon services and the most important part that Joel was making now customers can double dip. They can drive benefit from the consumption committed spend programs, both from Red Hat and from aws, which is amazing. Which is a game changer That's right. For many of our large >>Customers. That's right. And that, so we're gonna, we're gonna really go to town on that next year. That's, and all the, all the resources that I have, which are the technology sellers and the sas, you know, the engineers we're growing this team the most out that team. So it's, >>When you say 10 x, how many are you at now? I'm >>Curious to see where you're headed. Tell you, okay. There's not right? Oh no, there's not one. It's triple digit. Yeah, yeah. >>Today. Oh, sweet. Awesome. >>So, and it's a very sizable team. They're actually making sure that each of our customers are successful and then really making sure that, you know, no customer left behind policy. >>And it's a great point that customers love when Amazonians and Red Hats show up, they love it and it's, they want to get more of it, and we're gonna, we're gonna give it to 'em. >>Must feel great to be loved like that. >>Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. I would say yes. >>Seems like it's safe to say that there's another decade of partnership between your two companies. >>Hope so. That's right. That's the plan. >>Yeah. And I would say also, you know, just the IBM coming into the mix here. Yeah. I, you know, red Hat has informed the way we have turned around our partnership with ibm, essentially we, we signed the strategic collaboration agreement with the company. All of IBM software now runs on Rosa. So that is now also providing a lot of tailwinds both to our rail customers and as well as Rosa customers. And I think it's a very net creative, very positive for our partnership. >>That's right. It's been very positive. Yep. Yeah. >>You see the >>Billboards positive. Yeah, right. Also that, that's great. Great point, Dave. Yep. We have a, we have a new challenge, a new tradition on the cube here at Reinvent where we're, well, it's actually kind of a glamor moment for you, depending on how you leverage it. We're looking for your 32nd hot take your Instagram reel, your sizzle thought leadership, biggest takeaway, most important theme from this year's show. I know you want, right, Joel? I mean, you TM boy, I feel like you can spit the time. >>Yeah. It is all about Rosa for us. It is all in on that, that's the native OpenShift offering on aws and that's, that's the soundbite we're going go to town with. Now, I don't wanna forget all the other products that are in there, but Rosa is a, is a very key push for us this year. >>Fantastic. All right. Manu. >>I think our customers, it's getting super competitive. Our customers want to innovate just a >>Little bit. >>The enterprise customers see the cloud native companies. I wanna do what these guys are doing. I wanna develop features at a fast clip. I wanna scale, I wanna be resilient. And I think that's really the spirit that's coming out. So to Joel's point, you know, move to worlds containers, serverless, DevOps, which was like, you know, aha, something that's happening on the side of an enterprise is not becoming mainstream. The business is demanding it. The, it is becoming the centerpiece in the business strategy. So that's been really like the aha. Big thing that's happening here. >>Yeah. And those architectures are coming together, aren't they? That's correct. Right. You know, VMs and containers, it used to be one architecture and then at the other end of the spectrum is serverless. People thought of those as different things and now it's a single architecture and, and it's kind of right approach for the right job. >>And, and a compliments say to Red Hat, they do an incredible job of hiding that complexity. Yeah. Yes. And making sure that, you know, for example, just like, make it easier for the developers to create value and then, and you know, >>Yeah, that's right. Those, they were previously siloed architectures and >>That's right. OpenShift wanna be place where you wanna run containers or virtual machines. We want that to be this Yeah. Single place. Not, not go bolt on another piece of architecture to just do one or the other. Yeah. >>And hey, the hybrid cloud vision is working for ibm. No question. You know, and it's achievable. Yeah. I mean, I just, I've said unlike, you know, some of the previous, you know, visions on fixing the world with ai, hybrid cloud is actually a real problem that you're attacking and it's showing the results. Agreed. Oh yeah. >>Great. Alright. Last question for you guys. Cause it might be kind of fun, 10 years from now, oh, we're at another, we're sitting here, we all look the same. Time has passed, but we are not aging, which is a part of the new technology that's come out in skincare. That's my, I'm just throwing that out there. Why not? What do you guys hope that you can say about the partnership and, and your continued commitment to community? >>Oh, that's a good question. You go first this time. Yeah. >>I think, you know, the, you know, for looking into the future, you need to look into the past. And Amazon has always been driven by working back from our customers. That's like our key tenant, principle number 1 0 1. >>Couple people have said that on this stage this week. Yeah. >>Yeah. And I think our partnership, I hope over the next decade continues to keep that tenant as a centerpiece. And then whatever comes out of that, I think we, we are gonna be, you know, working through that. >>Yeah. I, I would say this, I think you said that, well, the customer innovation is gonna lead us to wherever that is. And it's, it's, it's gonna be in the cloud for sure. I think we can say that in 10 years. But yeah, anything from, from AI to the quant quantum computing that IBM's really pushing behind that, you know, those are, those are gonna be things that hopefully we show up on a, on a partnership with Manu in 10 years, maybe sooner. >>Well, whatever happens next, we'll certainly be covering it here on the cube. That's right. Thank you both for being here. Joel Manu, fantastic interview. Thanks to see you guys. Yeah, good to see you brought the energy. I think you're definitely ranking high on the top interviews. We >>Love that for >>The day. >>Thank >>My pleasure >>Job, guys. Now that you're competitive at all, and thank you all for tuning in to our live coverage here from AWS Reinvent in Las Vegas, Nevada, with Dave Valante. I'm Savannah Peterson. You're watching The Cube, the leading source for high tech coverage.

>>Good afternoon everyone, and welcome back to the Cube. I am Savannah Peterson here, coming to you from Detroit, Michigan. We're at Cuban Day three. Such a series of exciting interviews. We've done over 30, but this conversation is gonna be extra special, don't you think, John? >>Yeah, this is gonna be a good one. Griffon Labs is here with us. We're getting the conversation of what's going on in the industry management, watching the Kubernetes clusters. This is large scale conversations this week. It's gonna be a good one. >>Yeah. Yeah. I'm very excited. He's also got a fantastic Twitter handle, twitchy. H Please welcome Richie Hartman, who is the director of community here at Griffon. Richie, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks >>For having me. >>How's the show been for you? >>Busy. I, I mean, I, I, >>In >>A word, I have a ton of talks at at like maintain a thing and like the covering board searches at the TLC panel. I run forme day. So it's, it's been busy. It, yeah. Monday, I didn't have to run anything. That was quite nice. But there >>You, you have your hands in a lot. I'm not even gonna cover it. Looking at your bio, there's, there's so many different things that you're working on. I know that Grafana specifically had some announcements this week. Yeah, >>Yeah, yeah. We had quite a few, like the, the two largest ones is a, we now have a field Kubernetes integration on Grafana Cloud. So our, our approach is generally extremely open source first. So we try to push stuff into the exporters, like into the open source exporters, into mixes into things which are out there as open source for anyone to use. But that's little bit like a tool set, not a ready made solution. So when we talk integrations, we actually talk about things where you get this like one click experience, You log into your Grafana cloud, you click, I have a Kubernetes, which probably most of us have, and things just work like you in just the data. You have to write dashboards, you have to write alerts, you have to write everything to just get started with extremely opinionated dashboards, SLOs, alerts, again, all those things made by experts, so anyone can use them. And you don't have to reinvent the view for every single user. So that's the one. The other is, >>It's a big deal. >>Oh yeah, it is. Yeah. It is. It, we, we has, its heavily in integrations course. While, I mean, I don't have to convince anyone that perme is a DD factor standard in everything. Cloudnative. But again, it's, it's, it's sometimes a little bit hard to handle or a little bit not easy to get into. So, so smoothing this, this, this path onto onboarding yourself onto this stack and onto those types of solutions. Yes. Is what a lot of people need. Course, if you, if you look at the statistics from coupon, and we just heard this in the governing board session yesterday. Yeah. Like 60% of the people here are first time attendees. So there's a lot of people who just come into this thing and who need, like, this is your path. This is where you should be going. Or at least if you want to go, go there. This is how to get there. >>Here's your runway for takeoff. Yes. Yeah. I think that's a really good point. And I love that you, you had those numbers. I was curious. I, I had seen on Twitter, speaking of Twitter, I had seen, I had seen that, that there were a lot of people here coming for the first time. You're a community guy. Are we at an inflection point where this community is about to continue to scale? >>That's a very good question. Which I can't really answer. So I mean, >>Obviously I bet you're gonna try. >>I covid changed a few things. Yeah. Probably most people, >>A couple things. I mean, you know, casually, it's like such a gentle way of putting that, that was >>Beautiful. I'm gonna say yes, just to explode. All these new ERs are gonna learn Prometheus. They're gonna roll in with a open, open metrics, open telemetry. I love it, >>You know, But, but at the same time, like Cuban is, is ramping back up. But if you look at the, if you look at the registration numbers between Valencia Andro, it was more or less the same. Interesting. Which, so it didn't go onto this, onto this flu trajectory, which it was on like, up to, up to 2019. I expect this to take up again. But also with the economic situation, everything, I, I don't think >>It's, I think the jury's still out on hybrid. I think there's a lot, lot more hybrid. Let's see how the projects are gonna go. That's what I think it's gonna be the tell sign. How many people are in participating? How are the project's advancing? Some of the momentum, >>I mean, from the project level, Most of this is online anyway. Of course. That's how open source, right. I've been working for >>Ages. That's >>Cause you don't have any trouble budget or, or any office or, It's >>Always been that way. >>Yeah, precisely. So the projects are arguably spearheading this, this development and the, the online numbers. I I, I have some numbers in my head, but I'm, I'm not a hundred percent certain to, but they're higher for this time in Detroit than in volunteer as far somewhere. Cool. So that is growing and it's grown in parallel, which also is great. Cause it's much more accessible, much more inclusive. You don't have to have a budget of at least, let's say, I don't know, two to five k to, to fly over the pond and, and attend this thing. You can just do it from your home. So that is, that's a lot more inclusive. And I expect this to, to basically be a second more or less orthogonal growth, growth path. But the best thing about coupon is the hallway track. I'm just meeting people, talking to people and that kind of thing is not really possible with, >>It's, it's great to see people >>In person. No, and it makes such a difference. I mean, yeah. Even and interviewing people in person too. I mean, it does a, it's, it's, and, and this, this whole, I mean cncf, this whole community, every company here is community first. It's how these projects come to be. I think it's awesome. I feel like you got something you're saying to say, Johnny. >>Yeah. And I love some of the advancements. Rich Richie, we talked last time about, you know, open telemetry, open metrics. You're involved in dashboards. Yeah. One of the themes here is ease of use, simplicity, developer productivity. Where do you see the ease of use going from a project standpoint? For me, as you mentions everywhere, it's pretty much, it is, it's almost all corners of the world. Yep. And new people coming in. How, how are you making it easier? What's going on? Give us the update on that. >>So we also, funnily enough at precisely this topic in the TC panel just a few hours ago, about ease of use and about how to, how to make things easier to, to handle how developers currently, like if they just want to get into the cloud native seen, they have like, like we, we did some neck and math, like maybe 10 tools at least, which you have to be somewhat proficient in to just get started, which is honestly horrendous. Yeah. Course. Like with a server, I just had my survey install my thing and it runs, maybe I need a database, but that's roughly it. And this needs to change again. Like it's, it's nice that everything is, is un unraveled. And you have, you, you, you, you don't have those service boundaries which you had before. You can do all the horizontal scaling, you can do all the automatic scaling, all those things that they're super nice. But at the same time, this complexity, which used to be nicely compartmentalized, was deliberately broken up. And so it's becoming a lot harder to, to, like, we, we need to find new ways to compartmentalize this complexity back to, to human understandable levels again, in particular, as we keep onboarding new and new and new, new people, of course it's just not good use of anyone's time to, to just like learn the basics again and again and again. This is something which should be just compartmentalized and automated away. We're >>The three, We were talking to Matt Klein earlier and he was talking about as projects become mature and all over the place and have reach and and usage, you gotta work on the boring stuff. Yes. And when it's boring, that means you have success. Yes. But then you gotta work on the plumbing. What are some of the things that you guys are working on? Because people are relying on the product. >>Oh yeah. So for with my premises head on, the highlight feature is exponential or native or spars. Histograms. There's like three different names for one single concept. If you know Prometheus, you ha you currently have hard bucket boundaries where I say my latency is lower equal two seconds, one second, a hundred milliseconds, what have you. And I can put stuff into those histogram buckets accordingly to those predefined levels, which is extremely efficient, but like on the, on the code level. But it's not very nice for the humans course you need to understand your system before you're able to, to, to choose good cutoff points. And if you, if you, if you add new ones, that's completely fine. But if you want to actually change them, course you, you figured out that you made a fundamental mistake, you're going to have a break in the continue continuity of your observability data. And you cannot undo this in, into the past. So this is just gone native histograms. On the other hand, allow me to, to, okay, I'm not going to get get into the math, but basically you define a single formula, which there comes a good default. If you have good reasons, then you can change it. But if you don't, just don't talk, >>The people are in the math, Hit him up on Twitter. Twitter, h you'll get you that math. >>So the, >>The thing is people want the math, believe me. >>Oh >>Yeah. I mean we don't have time, but hit him up. Yeah. >>There's ProCon in two weeks in Munich and there will be whole talk about like the, the dirty details of all of the stuff. But the, the high level answer is it just does what people would expect it to do. And with very little overhead, you become, you get highly, highly or high resolution histograms, which is really important for a lot of use cases. But this is not just Prometheus with my open metrics head on the 2.0 feature, like the breaking highlight feature of Open Metrics 2.0 will be you guested precisely the same with my open telemetry head on. Low and behold the same underlying technology is being put or has been put into open telemetry. And we've worked for month and month and month and even longer between all different projects to, to assert that we have one single standard which is actually compatible with each other course. One of the worst things which you can have in the cloud ecosystem is if you have soly different things and they break in subtly wrong ways, like it's much better to just not work than to break in a way, which is just a little bit wrong. Of course you won't figure this out until it's too late. So we spent, like with all three hats, we spent insane amounts of time on making this happen and, and making this nice. >>Savannah, one of the things we have so much going on at Cube Con. I mean just you're unpacking like probably another day of cube. We can't go four days, but open time. >>I know, I know. I'm the same >>Open telemetry >>Challenge acceptance open. >>Sorry, we're gonna stay here. All the, They >>Shut the lights off on us last night. >>They literally gonna pull the plug on us. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They've done that before. It's not the first time we go until they kick us out. We love, love doing this. But Open telemetry is got a lot of news too. So that's, We haven't really talked much about that. >>We haven't at >>All. So there's a lot of stuff going on that, I won't call it boring. That's like code word's. That's cube talk for, for it's working. Yeah. So it's not bad, but there's a lot of stuff going on. Like open telemetry, open metrics, This is the stuff that matters cuz when you go in large scale, that's key. It's just what, missing all the, all the stuff. >>No, >>What are we missing? What are people missing? What's going on in the show that you think that's not actually being reported on? I mean it's a lot of high web assembly for instance got a lot >>Of high. Oh yeah, I was gonna say, I'm glad you're asking this because you, you've already mentioned about seven different hats that you wear. I can only imagine how many hats are actually in your hat cabinet. But you, you are someone with your, with your fingers in a lot of different things. So you can kind of give us a state of the union. Yeah. So go ahead. Let's talk about >>It. So I think you already hit a few good points. Ease of use is definitely one of them. And, and improving the developer experience and not having this like a value of pain. Yeah. That is one of the really big ones. It's going to be interesting cause it is boring. It is janitorial and it needs a different type of persona. A lot of, or maybe not most, but a large fraction of developers like the shiny stuff. And we could see this in Prometheus where like initially the people who contributed this the most where like those restless people who need to fix that one thing, this is impossible, are going to do it. Which changed over the years where the people who now contribute the most are off the janitorial. Like keep things boring, keep things running, still have substantial changes. But but not like more on the maintenance level. >>Yeah. The maintainers. I was just gonna bring that >>Up. Yeah. On the, on the keep things boring while still pushing 'em forward. Yeah. And the thing about ease of use is a lot of this is boring. A lot of this is strategy. A lot of this is toil. A lot of this takes lots of research also in areas where developers are not really good at, like UX for example, and ui like most software developers are really bad at those cause they just think differently from normal humans, I guess. >>So that's an interesting observation that you just made. I we could unpack that on a whole nother show as well. >>So the, the thing is this is going to be interesting for the open source scene course. This needs deliberate investment by companies who assign people to those projects and say, okay, fix that one thing or make it easier to use what have you. That is a lot easier with, with first party products and projects from companies cuz they can invest directly into the thing and they see much more of a value prop. It's, it's kind of normal by now to, to allow developers or even assigned developers onto open source projects. That's not so much the case for the tpms, for the architects, for the UX and your I people like for the documentation people that there's not as much awareness of that this is also driving value for everyone. Yes. And also there's not much as much. >>Yeah, that's a great point. This whole workflow production system of open source, which has grown and keeps growing and we'll keep growing. These be funded. And one of the things we were talking earlier in another session about is about the recession potentially we're hitting and the global issues, macroeconomics that might force some of these projects or companies not to get VC >>Funding. It's such a theme at the show. So, >>So to me, I said it's just not about VC funding. There's other funding mechanisms that's community oriented. There's companies participating, there's other meccas. Richie, if you could have your wishlist of how things could progress an open source, what would you want to see happen in terms of how it's, how things are funded, how things are executed. Cuz developers are going to run businesses. Cuz ultimately if you follow digital transformation to completion, it and developers aren't a department serving the business. They are the business. And that's coming fast. You know, what has to happen in your opinion, if you had the wish magic wand, what would you, what would you snap your fingers to make happen? >>If I had a magic wand that's very different from, from what is achievable. But let, let's >>Go with, Okay, go with the magic wand first. Cause we'll, we'll, we'll we'll riff on that. So >>I'm here for dreams. Yeah, yeah, >>Yeah. I mean I, I've been in open source for more than two, two decades, but now, and most of the open source is being driven forward by people who are not being paid for those. So for example, Gana is the first time I'm actually paid by a company to do my com community work. It's always been on the side. Of course I believe in it and I like doing it. I'm also not bad at it. And so I just kept doing it. But it was like at night on the weekends and everything. And to be honest, it's still at night and in the weekends, but the majority of it is during paid company time, which is awesome. Yeah. Most of the people who have driven this space forward are not in this position. They're doing it at night, they're doing it on the weekends. They're doing it out of dedication to a cause. Yeah. >>The commitment is insane. >>Yeah. At the same time you have companies mostly hyperscalers and either they have really big cloud offerings or they have really big advertisement business or both. And they're extracting a huge amount of value, which has been created in large part elsewhere. Like yes, they employ a ton of developers, but a lot of the technologies they built on and the shoulders of the giants they stand upon it are really poorly paid. And there are some efforts to like, I think the core foundation like which redistribute a little bit of money and such. But if I had my magic wand, everyone who is an open source and actually drives things forwards, get, I don't know, 20% of the value which they create just magically somehow. Yeah. >>Or, or other companies don't extract as much value and, and redistribute more like put more full-time engineers onto projects or whichever, like that would be the ideal state where the people who actually make the thing out of dedication are not more or less left on the sideline. Of course they're too dedicated to just say, Okay, I'm, I'm not doing this anymore. You figure this stuff out and let things tremble and falter. So I mean, it's like with nurses and such who, who just like, they, they know they have something which is important and they keep doing it. Of course they believe in it. >>I think this, I think this is an opportunity to start messaging this narrative because yeah, absolutely. Now we're at an inflection point where there's a big community, there is a shared responsibility in my opinion, to not spread the wealth, but make sure that it's equally balanced and, and the, and I think there's a way to do that. I don't know how yet, but I see that more than ever, it's not just come in, raid the kingdom, steal all the jewels, monetize it, and throw some token token money around. >>Well, in the burnout. Yeah, I mean I, the other thing that I'm thinking about too is it's, you know, it's, it's the, it's the financial aspect of this. It's the cognitive load. And I'm curious actually, when I ask you this question, how do you avoid burnout? You do a million different things and we're, you know, I'm sure the open source community that passion the >>Coach. Yeah. So it's just write code, >>It's, oh, my, my, my software engineering days are firmly over. I'm, I'm, I'm like, I'm the cat herer and the janitor and like this type of thing. I, I don't really write code anymore. >>It's how do you avoid burnout? >>So a i I didn't curse ahead burnout a few years ago. I was not nice, but that was still when I had like a full day job and that day job was super intense and on top I did all the things. Part of being honest, a lot of the people who do this are really dedicated and are really bad at setting boundaries between work >>And process. That's why I bring it up. Yeah. Literally why I bring it up. Yeah. >>I I I'm firmly in that area and I'm, I'm, I don't claim I have this fully figured out yet. It's also even more risky to some extent per like, it's, it's good if you're paid for this and you can do it during your work time. But on the other hand, if it's so nice and like if your hobby and your job are almost completely intersectional, it >>Becomes really, the lines are blurry. >>Yeah. And then yeah, like have work from home. You, you don't even commute anything or anymore. You just sit down at your computer and you just have fun doing your stuff and all of a sudden it's deep at night and you're still like, I want to keep going. >>Sounds like God, something cute. I >>Know. I was gonna say, I was like, passion is something we all have in common here on this. >>That's the key. That is the key point There is a, the, the passion project becomes the job. But now the contribution is interesting because now yeah, this ecosystem is, is has a commercial aspect. Again, this is the, this is the balance between commercialization and keeping that organic production system that's called open source. I mean, it's so fascinating and this is amazing. I want to continue that conversation. It's >>Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. This is, this is great. Richard, this entire conversation has been excellent. Thank you so much for joining us. How can people find you? I mean, I give em your Twitter handle, but if they wanna find out more about Grafana Prometheus and the 1700 things you do >>For grafana grafana.com, for Prometheus, promeus.io for my own stuff, GitHub slash richie age slash talks. Of course I track all my talks in there and like, I don't, I currently don't have a personal website cause I stop bothering, but my, like that repository is, is very, you find what I do over, like for example, the recording link will be uploaded to this GitHub. >>Yeah. Great. Follow. You also run a lot of events and a lot of community activity. Congratulations for you. Also, I talked about this last time, the largest IRC network on earth. You ran, built a data center from scratch. What happened? You done >>That? >>Haven't done a, he even built a cloud hyperscale compete with Amazon. That's the next one. Why don't you put that on the >>Plate? We'll be sure to feature whatever Richie does next year on the cube. >>I'm game. Yeah. >>Fantastic. On that note, Richie, again, thank you so much for being here, John, always a pleasure. Thank you. And thank you for tuning in to us here live from Detroit, Michigan on the cube. My name is Savannah Peterson and here's to hoping that you find balance in your life this weekend.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back, everyone. Live coverage here at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon here in Detroit, Michigan. I'm John Furrier, your host of theCUBE for special one-on-one conversation with Scott Johnston, who's the CEO of Docker, CUBE alumni, been around the industry, multiple cycles of innovation, leading one of the most important companies in today's industry inflection point as Docker what they've done since they're, I would say restart from the old Docker to the new Docker, now modern, and the center of the conversation with containers driving the growth of Kubernetes. Scott, great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> John, thanks for the invite. Glad to be here. >> You guys have had great success this year with extensions. Docker as a business model's grown. Congratulations, you guys are monetizing well. Pushing up over 50 million. >> Thank you. >> I hear over pushing a hundred million maybe. What the year to the ground will tell me, but it's good sign. Plus you've got the community and nurturing of the ecosystem continuing to power away and open source is not stopping. It's thundering away growth. Younger generation coming in. >> That's right. >> Developer tool chain that you have has become consistent. Almost de facto standard. Others are coming in the market. A lot of competition emerging. You got a lot going on right now. What's going on? >> Well, I know it's fantastic time in our industry. Like all companies are becoming software companies. That means they need to build new applications. That means they need developers to be productive and to be safely productive. And we, and this wonderful CNCF ecosystem are right in the middle of that trend, so it's fantastic. >> So you have millions of developers using Docker. >> Tens of millions. >> Tens of millions of developed Docker and as the market's changing, I was commenting before we came on camera, and I'd love to get your reaction, comment on it. You guys represent the modernization of containers, open source. You haven't really changed how open source works, but you've kind of modernized it. You're starting to see developers at the front lines, more and more power going to developers. >> Scott: That's right. >> They want self-service. They vote with their code. >> That's right. >> They vote with their actions. >> Scott: That's right. >> And if you take digital transformation to its conclusion, it's not IT serves the business or it's a department, the company is IT. >> That's right. >> The company is the application, which means developers are running everything. >> Yes, yes. I mean, one of the jokes, not jokes in the valley is that Tesla is in a car company. Tesla is a computer company that happens to have wheels on the computer. And I think we can smile at that, but there's so many businesses, particularly during COVID, that realize that. What happened during COCID? If you're going to the movies, nope, you're now going to Netflix. If you're going to the gym, now you're doing Peloton. So this realization that like I have to have a digital game, not just on the side, but it has to be the forefront of my business and drive my business. That realization is now any industry, any company across the board. >> We've been reporting aggressively for past three years now. Even now we're calling some things supercloud. If companies, if they don't realize that IT is not a department, they will probably be out of business. >> That's a hundred percent. >> It's going to transform into full on invisible infrastructure. Infrastructure as code, whatever you want to call that going, configuration, operations, developers will set the pace. This has a lot to do with some of your success. You're at the beginning of it. This is just the beginning. What can you talk about that in your mind is contributing to the success of Docker? I know you're going to say team, everything, I get that, but like what specifically in the industry is driving Docker's success right now? >> Well, it did. We did have a fantastic team. We do have a fantastic team and that is one of the reasons, primary reasons our success. But what is also happening, John, is because there's a demand for applications, I'll just throw it out there. 750 million new applications are coming in the market in the next two years. That is more applications that have been developed in the entire 40 years history of IT. So just think about the productivity demands that are coming at developers. And then you also see the need to do so safely, meaning ship quickly, but ship safely. And yet 90 some percent of every application consists of open source components that are now on attack surface for criminals. And so typically our industry has had to say one or the other, okay, you can ship quickly but not safely, or you can ship safely, but it's not going to go fast. And one of the reasons I think Docker is where it is today is that we're able to offer both. We're able to unlock that you can ship quickly, safely using Docker, using the Docker toolchain, using integrations we have with all the wonderful partners here at CNCF that is unique. And that's a big reason why we're seeing the success we're seeing. >> And you're probably pleased with extensions this year. >> Yes. >> The performance of extensions that you launched at DockerCon '22. >> Yes. Well, extensions are part of that story and that developers have multiple tools. They want choice, developers like choice to be productive and Docker is part of that, but it's not the only solution. And so Docker extensions allow the monitoring providers and the observability and if you want a separate Kubernetes stack, like all of that flexibility, extensions allows. And again, offers the power and the innovation of this ecosystem to be used in a Docker development and context. >> Well, I want to get into some of the details of some of your products and how they're evolving. But first I want to get your thoughts on the trend line here that we reported at the opening segment. The hot story is WebAssembly, the Wasm, which really got a lot of traction or interest. People enthous about it. >> Interest, yeah. >> Lot of enthusiasm. Confidence we'll see how that evolves, but a lot of enthusiasm for sure. I've never seen something this hyped up since Envoy, in my opinion. So a lot of interest from developers. What is Wasm or WebAssembly is actually what it is, but Wasm is the codeword or nickname. What is Wasm? >> So in brief, WebAssembly is a new application type, full stop. And it's just enough of the components that you need and it's just a binary format that is very, very secure. And so it's lightweight, it's fast and secure. And so it opens up a lot of interesting use cases for developer, particularly on the edge. Another use case for Wasm is in the browser. Again, lightweight, fast, secure also. >> John: Sounds like an app server to me. >> And so we think it's a very, very interesting trend. And you ask, Okay, what's Docker's role in that? Well, Docker has been around eight years now, eight plus years, tens of millions developers using it. They've already made investments in skills, talent, automation, toolchains, pipelines. And Docker started with Linux containers as we know, then brought that same experience to Windows containers, then brought it to serverless functions. About 25% of Amazon Lambdas are OCI image containers. And so we were seeing that trend. We were also seeing the community actually without any prompting from us, start to fork and play with Docker and apply it to Wasm. And we're like, Huh, that's interesting. What if we helped get behind that trend, such that you changed just one line of a Docker file, now you're able to produce Wasm objects instead of Linux containers and just bring that same easy to use. >> So that's not a competition to Docker's? >> Not a competition at all. In fact, very complimentary. We showed off on Monday at the Wasm day, how in the same Docker compose application, multi-service application. One service is delivered via Linux container, Another service is delivered via Wasm. >> And Wasm is what? Multiple languages? 'Cause what is it? >> Yes. So the binary can be compiled from multiple languages. So RAS, JavaScript, on and on and on. At the end of the day, it's a smaller binary that provides a function, typically a single function that you can stand up and deploy on an edge. You can stand up and deploy on the server side or stand up and deploy on the browser. >> So from a container standpoint, from your customer standpoint, what a Linux container is is a similar thing to what a Wasm container is. >> They could implement the same function. That's right. Now a Linux container can have more capabilities that a function might not have, but that's. >> John: From a workflow standpoint. >> That's right. And that's more of a use case by use case standpoint. What we serve is we serve developers and we started out serving developers with Linux containers, then Windows containers, then Lambdas, now Wasm. Whatever other use case, what other application type comes along, we want to be there to serve developers. >> So one of the things I want to get your thoughts on, because this has come up in a couple CUBE interviews before, and we were talking before we came on camera, is developers want ease of use and simplicity. They don't want more steps to do things. They don't want things harder. >> That's right. So the classic innovation is reduce the time it takes to do something, reduce the steps, make it easier. That's a formula of success. >> Scott: That's right. >> When you start adding more toolchains into the mix, you get tool sprawl. So that's not really, that's antithesis to developer. So the argument is, okay, do I have to use a new tool chain for Wasm? Is that a fact or no? >> That's exactly right. That was what we were seeing and we thought, well, how can Docker help with this situation? And Docker can help by bringing the same existing toolchain that developers are already familiar with. The same automation, the same pipelines. And just by changing a line of Docker file, changing a single line of composed file, now they get the power of Wasm unlocked in the very same tools they were using before. >> So your position is, hey, don't adopt some toolchain for Wasm. You can just do it in line with Docker. >> No need to, no need to. We're providing it right there out of the box, ready for them. >> That's raise and extend, as they would say, build Microsoft strategy there. That's nice. Okay, so let's get back into like the secure trusted 'cause that was another theme at DockerCon. We covered that deeply. Software supply chain, I was commenting on my intro with Savannah and Lisa that at some point open source means so plentiful. You might not have to write code. You got to glue together. So as code proliferates, the question what's in there? >> That's right. This is what they call the software supply chain. You've been all over this. Where are we with this? Is it harder now? Is it easier? Was there progress? Take us through what's the state of the art. I think we're early on this one, John, in the industry because I think the realization of how much open source is inside a given app is just now hitting consciousness. And so the data we have is that for any given application, anywhere from 75 to 85% is actually not unique to the developer or the organization. It's open source components that they have put together. And it's really down to that last 15, 25%, which is their own unique code that they're adding on top of all this open source code. So right there, it's like, aha, that's a pretty interesting profile or distribution of value, which means those open source components, where are they finding them? How are they integrating them? How do they know those open source components are going to be supported and trusted and secured? And that's the challenge for us as an industry right now is to make it just obvious where to get the components, how safe they are, who's standing behind them, and how easy it is to assemble them into a working application. >> All right. So the question that I had specifically on security 'cause this had come up before. All good on the trusted and I think that message is evergreen. It's a north star. That's a north star for you. How are you making images more secure and how are you enabling organizations to identify security issues in containers? Can you share your strategy and thoughts on that particular point? >> Yes. So there's a range of things in the secure software supply chain and it starts with, are you starting with trusted open source components that you know have support, that you know are secured? So in Docker Hub today, we have 14 million applications, but a subset of that, we've worked with the upstream providers to basically designate as trusted open source content. So this is the Docker official images, Docker verified publisher images, Docker sponsored open source. And those different categories have levels of certification assurance that they must go through. Generate an SBOM, so you know what's inside that container. It has to be scanned by a scanning tool and those scanning results have to be made available. >> John: Are you guys scanning that? >> So we provide a scanner, they can use another scanner as long as they publish the results of that scan. And then the whole thing is signed. >> Are you publishing the results on your side too? >> Yeah, we published our results through an open database that's accessible to all. >> Free. >> Free, a hundred percent free. You come in and you can see every image on hub. >> So I'm a user, for free I can see security vulnerabilities that are out there that have been identified. >> By version, by layer, all the way through. And you can see tracking all the way back to the package that's upstream. So you know how to remediate and we provide recommendations on how to remediate that with the latest version. >> John: And you don't charge for that. >> We don't charge for that. We do not charge for that. And so that's the trusted upstream. >> So organization can look at the scan, they can look at the scan data and hopefully, what happens if they're not scanned? >> So we provide scanning tools both for the local environments for Docker Desktop, as well as for hub. So if you want to do your own scan, so for example, when you're that developer adding the 15, 25%, you got to scan your stuff as well. Not just leave it up to the already scanned components. And so we provide tools there. We also provide tools to track the packages that that developer might be including in their custom code, all the way back upstream to whatever MPM repo or what have you that they picked up. And then if there's a CVE 30 days later, we also track that as well. We say, Hey, that package was was safe 29 days ago, but today CVE just came out, better upgrade to the latest version and get that out there. So basically if you get down to it, it's like start with trusted components and then have observability not just on the moment. >> And scan all the time. >> Scan all the time and scanning gives you that observability and importantly not just at that moment, but through the lifecycle of the application, through lifecycle of the artifact. So end-to-end 24/7 observability of the state of your supply chain. That's what's key, John. >> That's the best practice. >> That's the key. That's the key. >> Awesome, I agree. That's great. Well, I'm glad we've dug into that's super important. Obviously organizations can get that scanning that's exceed the vulnerabilities, that can take action. That's going to be a big focus here for you, security. It's not going to stop, is it? >> It's never going to stop because criminals are incentive to keep attacking. And so it's the gift that keeps on giving, if you will. >> Okay, so let's get into some of the products. Docker Desktop seems to be doing well. Docker Hub has always been a staple of it. And how's that going? >> Yeah, Docker Hub has 18 million monthly actives hitting it and that's growing by double digits year over year. And what they're finding, going back to our previous thread, John, is that they're coming there for the trusted content. In fact, those three categories that I referenced earlier are about 2000 applications of the 14 million. And yet they represent 56% of the 15 billion downloads a month from Docker Hub. Meaning developers are identifying that, hey, I want trusted source. We raise those in the search results and we have a visual cue. And so that's the big driver of hub's growth right now, is I want trusted content, where do I go? I go to Hub, download that trusted open source and I'm ready to go. >> I have been seeing some chatter on the internet and some people's sharing that they're looking at other places, besides hub, to do some things. What's your message to folks out there around Docker Hub? Why Docker Hub and desktop together? 'Cause you mentioned the toolchain before, but those two areas, I know they've been around for a while, you continue to work on them. What's the message to the folks out there about stay with the hub? >> Sure. I mean the beauty of our ecosystem is that it's interoperable. The standards for build, share and run, we're all using them here at CNCF. So yes, there's other registries. What we would say is we have the 18 million monthly active that are pulling, we have the worldwide distribution that is 24/7 high, five nines reliability, and frankly, we're there to provide choice. And so yes, we have have our trusted content, but for example, the Tanzu apps, they also distribute through us. Red Hat applications also distribute through us because we have the reach and the distribution and offer developers choice of Dockers content, choice of Red Hats content, choice of VMware's, choice of Bitnami, so on so forth. So come to the hub for the distribution to reach and that the requirements we have for security that we put in place for our publishers, give users and publishers an extra degree of assurance. >> So the Docker Hub is an important part of the system? >> Scott: Yes, very much so. >> And desktop, what's new with desktop? >> So desktop of course is the other end of the spectrum. So if trusted components start up on Docker Hub, developers are pulling them down to the desktop to start assembling their application. And so the desktop gives that developer all the tools he or she needs to build that modern application. So you can have your build tooling, your debug tooling, your IDE sitting alongside there, your Docker run, your Docker compose up. And so the loop that we see happening is the dev will have a database they download from hub, a front-end, they'll add their code to it and they'll just rapidly iterate. They'll make a change, stand it up, do a unit test, and when they're satisfied do a git commit, off it goes into production. >> And your goal obviously is to have developers stay with Docker for their toolchain, their experience, make it their home base. >> And their trusted content. That's right. And the trusted content and the extensions are part of that. 'Cause the extensions provide complimentary tooling for that local experience. >> You guys have done an amazing job. I want to give you personal props. I've been following Docker from the beginning when they had the pivot, they sold the enterprise to Mirantis, went back to the roots, modernized, riding the wave. You guys are having a good time. I got to ask the question 'cause people always want to know 'cause open source is about transparency. How you guys making your money? Business is good. How's that work and what was the lucky, what was the not lucky strike, but what was the aha moment? What was the trigger that just made you just kick in this new monetization growth wave? >> So the monetization is per seat, per developer seat. And that changed in November 2019. We were pricing on the server side before, and as you said, we sold that off. And what changed is some of the trends we were talking about that the realization by all organizations that they had to become software companies. And Docker provided the productivity in an engineered desktop product and the trusted content, it provided the productivity safely to developers. And frankly then we priced it at a rate that is very reasonable from an economic standpoint. If you look at developer productivity, developers are paid anywhere from 150 to 300 to 400, 500,000 even higher. >> But when you're paying your developers that much, then productivity is a premium. And what we were asking for from companies from a licensing standpoint was really a modest relative to the making those developers product. >> It's not like Oracle. I mean talk about extracting the value out of the customer. But your point is your positioning is always stay quarter of the open source, but for companies that adopt the structural change to be developer first, a software company, there's a premium to pay because you devalue there. >> And need the tooling to roll it out at scales. So the companies are paying us. They're rolling it out to tens of thousand developers, John. So they need management, they need visibility, they need guardrails that are all around the desktop. So, but just to put a stat on it, so to your point about open source and the freemium wheel working, of our 13 million Docker accounts, 12 are free, about a million are paid for accounts. And that's by design because the open source. >> And you're not gouging developers per se, it's just, not gouging anyone, but you're not taking money out of their hands. It's the company. >> If the company is paying for their productivity so that they can build safely. >> More goodness more for the developer. >> That's right. That's right. >> Gouging would be more like the Oracle strategy. Don't comment. You don't need to comment. I keep saying that, but it's not like you're taxing. It's not a heavy. >> No, $5 a month, $9 a month, $24 a month depending on level. >> But I think the big aha to me and in my opinion is that you nailed the structural change culturally for a company. If they adopt the software ecosystem approach for transforming their business, they got to pay for it. So like a workflow, it's a developer. >> It's another tool. I mean, do they pay for their spreadsheet software? Do they pay for their back office ERP software? They do >> That's my point. >> to make those people popular or sorry, make those people successful, those employees successful. This is a developer tool to make developer successful. >> It's a great, great business model. Congratulations. What's next for you guys? What are you looking for? You just had your community events, you got DockerCon coming up next year. What's on the horizon for you? Put a plugin for the company. What are you looking for? Hiring? >> Yeah, so we're growing like gangbusters. We grew from 60 with the reset. We're now above 300 and we're continuing to grow despite this economic climate. Like our customers are very much investing in software capabilities. So that means they're investing in Docker. So we're looking for roles across the board, software engineers, product managers, designers, marketing, sales, customer success. So if you're interested, please reach out. The next year is going to be really interesting because we're bringing to market products that are doubling down on these areas, doubling down a developer productivity, doubling down on safety to make it even more just automatic that developers just build so they don't have to think about it. They don't need a new tool just to be safer. We hinted a bit about automating SBOM creation. You can see more of that pull through. And in particular, developers want to make the right decision. Everyone comes to work wanting to make the right decision. But what they often lack is context. They often lack like, well, is this bit of code safe or not? Or is this package that I just downloaded over here safe or not? And so you're going to see us roll out additional capabilities that give them very explicit contextual guidance of like, should you use this or not? Or here's a better version over here, a safer version over there. So stay tuned for some exciting stuff. >> It's going to be a massive developer growth wave coming even bigger we've ever seen. Final questions just while I got you here. Where do you see WebAssembly, Wasm going? If you had to throw a dart at the board out a couple years, what does it turn into? >> Yeah, so I think it's super exciting. Super exciting, John. And there's three use cases today. There's browser, there's edge, and there's service side in the data center of the cloud. We see the edge taking off in the next couple years. It's just such a straight line through from what they're doing today and the value that standing up a single service on the edge go. The service side needs some work on the Wasm runtime. The Wasm runtime is not multi-threaded today. And so there's some deep, deep technical work that's going on. The community's doing a fantastic job, but that'll take a while to play through. Browsers also making good progress. There's a component model that Wasm's working on that'll really ignite the industry. That is going to take another couple years as well. So I'd say let's start with the edge use case. Let's get everyone excited about that value proposition. And these other two use cases will come along. >> It'll all work itself out in the wash as open source always does. Scott Johnston, the Chief Executive Officer at Docker. Took over at the reset, kicking butt and taking names. Congratulations. You guys are doing great. Continue to power the developer movement. Thanks for coming on. >> John, thanks so much. Pleasure to be here. >> We're bringing you all the action here. Extracting the signal from the noise. I'm John Furrier, day one of three days of wall-to-wall live coverages. We'll be back for our next guest after this short break. (gentle music)

>>Welcome back everyone to Cube's live coverage, VMware Explorer, 2022 formerly world. I've been saying now I gotta get that out. Dave, I've been sayingm world. It just kind of comes off the tongue when I'm tired, but you know, wall to wall coverage, again, back to back interviews all day two sets. This is a wrap up here with the analyst discussion. Got one more interview after this really getting the analyst's perspective around what we've been hearing and seeing, observing, and reporting on the cube. Again, two sets blue and green. We call them here on the show floor on Moscone west with the sessions upstairs, two floors of, of amazing content sessions, keynote across ed Moscone, north and south SBI here, cloud strategists with the cube. And of course, what event wouldn't be complete without SBE weighing in on the analysis. And, and, and I'm, you know, all kidding aside. I mean that because we've had great interactions around, you know, digging in you, you're like a roving analyst out there. And what's great about what you do is you're social. You're communicating, you're touching everybody out there, but you're also picking up the puzzle pieces. And we, you know, of course we recognize that cuz that's what we do, but you're out, we're on the set you're out on the floor and you know your stuff and, and you know, clouds. So how you, this is your wheelhouse. Great to see you. Good to >>See you. I'm good guys. Thank you. Thank you for having >>Me. So I mean, Dave and I were riffing going back earlier in this event and even before, during our super cloud event, we're reminded of the old OpenStack days. If you remember, Dave OpenStack was supposed to be the open source version of cloud. And that was a great ambition. And the cloud AATI at that time was very into it because it made a lot of sense. And the vision, all the infrastructure was code. Everything was lined up. Everything was religiously was on the table. Beautiful cloud future. Okay. 20 2009, 2010, where was Amazon? Then they just went off like a rocket ship. So cloud ended up becoming AWS in my opinion. Yeah. OpenStax then settled in, did some great things, but also spawns Kubernetes. Okay. So, you know, we've lived through thiss we've seen this movie. We were actually in the trenches on the front lines present at creation for cloud computing. >>Yeah. I was at Rackspace when the open stack was open sourced. I was there in, in the rooms and discussions and all that. I think OpenStack was given to the open source like prematurely. I usually like we left a toddler on the freeway. No, the toddler >>Got behind the wheel. Can't see over the dashboard. >>So we have learned over the years in last two decades, like we have seen the open source rise of open source and we have learned quite a few lessons. And one lesson we learned from there was like, don't let a project go out in the open, tell it mature enough with one vendor. So we did that prematurely with NASA, NASA and Rackspace gave the, the code from two companies to the open source community and then likes of IBM and HPE. No. Now HPE, they kind of hijacked the whole thing and then put a lot of developers on that. And then lot of us sort of second tier startup. >>But, but, but I remember not to interject, but at that time there wasn't a lot of pushback for letting them it wasn't like they infiltrated like a, the vendors always tried to worry about vendors coming in open source, but at that time was pretty people accepted them. And then it got off the rails. Then you remember the great API debate. You >>Called it a hail Mary to against AWS, which is, is what it was, what it was. >>It's true. Yeah. Ended up being right. But the, the battle started happening when you started seeing the network perimeters being discussed, you starting to see some of the, in the trenches really important conversations around how to make essentially cross cloud or super cloud work. And, and again, totally premature it continue. And, and what does that mean today? So, okay. Is VMware too early on their cross cloud? Are they, is multi-cloud ready? >>No >>For, and is it just vaporware? >>No, they're not too early, actually on, on, on, on that side they were premature to put that out there, but this is like very mature company, like in the ops area, you know, we have been using, we VMware stuff since 2000 early 2000. I, I was at commerce one when we started using it and yeah, it was for lab manager, you know, like, you know, put the labs >>Out desktop competition. >>Yeah, yeah. Kind of thing. So it, it matured pretty fast, but now it it's like for all these years they focused on the op site more. Right. And then the challenge now in the DevOps sort of driven culture, which is very hyped, to be honest with you, they have try and find a place for developers to plug in on the left side of the sort of whole systems, life cycle management sort of line, if you will. So I think that's a, that's a struggle for, for VMware. They have to figure that out. And they are like a tap Tansu application platform services. They, they have released a new version of that now. So they're trying to do that, but still they are from the sort of get ups to the, to the right, from that point to the right on the left side. They're lot more tooling to helpers use as we know, but they are very scattered kind of spend and scattered technology on the left side. VMware doesn't know how to tackle that. But I think, I think VMware should focus on the right side from the get ups to the right and then focus there. And then how in the multi-cloud cross cloud. >>Cause my sense is, they're saying, Hey, look, we're not gonna own the developers. I think they know that. And they think they're saying do develop in whatever world you want to develop in will embrace it. And then the ops guys, we, we got you covered, we got the standards, we have the consistency and you're our peeps. You tend then take it, you know, to, to the market. Is that not? I mean, it seems like a viable strategy. I >>Mean, look at if you're VMware Dave and start, you know, this where they are right now, the way they missed the cloud. And they had to reboot that with jazzy and, and, and Raghu to do the databases deal. It's essentially VMware hosted on AWS and clients love it cuz it's clarity. Okay. It's not vCloud air. So, so if you're them right now, you seeing yourself, wow. We could be the connective tissue between all clouds. We said this from day one, when Kubernetes was hitting in the scene, whoever can make this, the interoperability concept of inter clouding and connect clouds so that there could be spanning of applications and data. We didn't say data, but we said, you know, creating that nice environment of multiple clouds. Okay. And again, in concept, that sounds simple, but if you're VMware, you could own that abstraction layer. So do you own it or do you seed the base and let it become a defacto organization? Like a super layer, super pass layer and then participate in it? Or are you the middleware yourself? We heard AJ Patel say that. So, so they could be the middleware for at all. >>Aren't they? The infrastructure super cloud. I mean, that's what they're trying to be. >>Yeah. I think they're trying, trying to do that. It's it's I, I, I have said that many times VMware is bridged to the cloud, right? >>The sorry. Say bridge to >>The cloud. Yeah. Right. For, for enterprises, they have virtualized environments, mostly on VMware stacks. And another thing is I wanna mention touch on that is the number of certified professionals on VMware stack. There it's a huge number it's in tens of thousands. Right? So people who have got these certifications, they want to continue that sort of journey. They wanna leverage that. It's like, it's a Sunco if they don't use that going forward. And that was my question to, to during the press release yesterday, like are there new certifications coming into the, into the limelight? I, I think the VMware, if they're listening to me here somewhere, they will listen. I guess they should introduce a, a cross cloud certification for their stack because they want to be cross cloud or multi-cloud sort of vendor with one sort of single pane. So does actually Cisco and so do many others. But I think VMware is in a good spot. It's their market to lose. I, I, I call it when it comes to the multi-cloud for enterprise, especially for the legacy applications. >>Well, they're not, they have the enterprise they're super cloud enabler, Dave for the, for the enterprise, cuz they're not hyperscaler. Okay. They have all the enterprise customers who come here, we see them, we speak to them. We know them will mingle, but >>They have really good relationships with all the >>Hyperscale. And so those, those guys need a way to the cloud in a way that's cloud operation though. So, so if you say enterprises need their own super cloud, I would say VMware might wanna raise their hands saying we're the vendor to provide that. Yes, totally. And then that's the middleware role. So middleware isn't your classic stack middleware it's middle tissue. So you got, it's not a stack model anymore. It's completely different. >>Maybe, maybe my, my it's >>Not a stack >>Industry. Maybe my industry super cloud is too aspirational, but so let's assume for a second. You're not gonna have everybody doing their own clouds, like Goldman Sachs and, and capital one, even though we're seeing some evidence of that, even in that case, connecting my on-prem to the cloud and modernizing my application stack and, and having some kind of consistency between your on-prem and it's just call it hybrid, like real hybrid, true hybrid. They should dominate that. I mean, who is who, if it's not it's VMware and it's what red hat who else? >>I think red hat wants it too. >>Yeah. Well, red hat and red, hat's doing it with IBM consulting and they gotta be, they have great advantage there for all the banks. Awesome. But what, what about the other 500,000 customers that are >>Out there? If VMware could do what they did with the hypervisor, with virtualization and create the new thing for super cloud, AKA connecting clouds together. That's a, that's a holy grail move right >>There. But what about this PA layer? This Tansu and area which somebody on Twitter, there was a little SNAR come that's V realized just renamed, which is not. I mean, it's, it's from talking to Raghu unless he's just totally BSing us, which I don't think he is. That's not who he is. It's this new federated architecture and it's this, their super PAs layer and, and, and it's purpose built for what they're trying to do across clouds. This is your wheelhouse. What, what do you make of that? >>I think Tansu is a great effort. They have put in lot of other older products under that one umbrella Tansu is not a product actually confuses the heck out of the market. That it's not a product. It's a set of other products put under one umbrella. Now they have created another umbrella term with the newer sort of, >>So really is some yeah. >>Two >>Umbrella on there. So it's what it's pivotal. It's vRealize it's >>Yeah. We realize pivotal and, and, and older stack, actually they have some open source components in there. So, >>So they claim that this ragus claim, it's this new architecture, this new federated architecture graph database, low latency, real time ingestion. Well, >>AJ, AJ that's AJ's department, >>It sounded good. I mean, this is that >>Actually I think the newer, newer stuff, what they announced, that's very promising because it seems like they're building something from scratch. So, >>And it won't be, it won't be hardened for, but, but >>It won't be hardened for, but, >>But those, but they have a track record delivering. I mean, they gotta say that about yeah. >>They're engineering focus company. They have engineering culture. They're their software engineers are top. Not top not, >>Yes. >>What? >>Yeah. It's all relatives. If they, if the VMware stays the way they are. Well, >>Yeah, >>We'll get to that a second. What >>Do you mean? What are you talking >>About? They don't get gutted >>The elephant in the room if they don't get gutted and then, then we'll see it happens there. But right now I love, we love VMware. We've been covering them for 12 years and we've seen the trials, not without their own issues to work on. I mean, everyone needs to work on stuff, but you know, world class, they're very proud of their innovation, but I wanna ask you, what was your observations walking around the floor, talking to people? What was the sense of the messaging? Is it real in their minds? Are they leaning in, are they like enthused? Are they nervous, apprehensive? How would you categorize the attitude of the folks here that you've talked to or observed? >>Yeah. It at the individual product level, like the people are very confident what they're building, what they're delivering, but when it comes to the telling a cohesive story, if you go to all the VMware booth there, like it's hard to find anybody who can tell what, what are all the services under tens and how they are interconnected and what facilities they provide or they can't. They, I mean, most of the people who are there, they can are walking through the economic side of things, like how it will help you save money or, or how the TCR ROI will improve. They are very focused on because of the nature of the company, right. They're very focused on the technology only. So I think that that's the, that's what I learned. And another sort of gripe or negative I have about VMware is that they have their product portfolio is so vast and they are even spreading more thinly. And they're forced to go to the left towards developers because of the sheer force of hyperscalers. On one side on the, on the right side, they are forced to work with hyperscalers to do more like ops related improvements. They didn't mention AI or, or data. >>Yeah. Data storage management. >>That that was weak. That's true. During the, the keynote as well. >>And they didn't mention security and their security story, strong >>Security. I think they mentioned it briefly very briefly, very briefly. But I think their SCO story is good actually, but no is they didn't mention it properly, I guess. >>Yeah. There wasn't prominent in the keynote. It was, you know, and again, I understand why data wasn't P I, they wanted to say about data, >>Didn't make room for the developer story. I think this was very much a theatrical maneuver for Hawk and the employee morale and the ecosystem morale, Dave, then it had to do with the nuts bolt of security. They can come back to get that security. In my opinion, you know, I, I don't think that was as bad of a call as bearing the vSphere, giving more demos, which they did do later. But the keynote I thought was, was well done as targeted for all the negative sentiment around Broadcom and Broadcom had this, the acquisition agreement that they're, they are doing, they agree >>Was well done. I mean, >>You know, if I VMware, I would've done the same thing, look at this is a bright future. We're given that we're look at what we got. If you got this, it's on you. >>And I agree with you, but the, the, again, I don't, I don't see how you can't make security front and center. When it is the number one issue for CIOs, CSOs, CSOs boards or directors, they just, it was a miss. They missed it. Yeah. Okay. And they said, oh, well, there's only so much time, but, and they had to put the application development focus on there. I get that. But >>Another thing is, I think just keynote is just one sort of thing. One moment in this whole sort of continuous period, right. They, I think they need to have that narrative, like messaging done periodically, just like Amazon does, you know, like frequent events tapping into the practitioners on regional basis. They have to do that. Maybe it's a funding issue. Maybe it is some weakness on the, no, >>I think they planning, I talked to, we talked to the CMO and she said, Explorer is gonna be a road show. They're gonna go international with, it's gonna take a global, they're gonna have a lot of wood behind the arrow. They're gonna spend a lot of money on Explorer is what, they're, what we're seeing. And that's a good thing. You got a new brand, you gotta build it. >>You know, I would've done, I would've had, I would've had a shorter keynote on day one and doing, and then I would've done like a security day, day two. I would've dedicated the whole morning, day two keynote to security cuz their stories I think is that strong? >>Yeah. >>Yeah. And I don't know the developers side of things. I think it's hard for VMware to go too much to the left. The spend on the left is very scattered. You know, if you notice the tools, developers change their tools on freaking monthly basis, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's hard to sustain that they on the very left side and the, the, the >>It's hard for companies like VMware to your point. And then this came up in super cloud and ins Rayme mentioned that developers drive everything, the patterns, what they like and you know, the old cliche meet them where they are. You know, honestly, this is kind of what AJ says is the right they're doing. And it's the right strategy meeting that develops where they are means give them something that they like. They like self-service they like to try stuff. They like to, they don't like it. They'll throw it away. Look at the success that comes like data, dog companies like that have that kind of offering with freemium and self-service to, to continue the wins versus jamming the tooling down their throat and selling >>Totally self-serve infrastructure for the, in a way, you know, you said they missed cloud, which they did V cloud air. And then they thought of got it. Right. It kind of did the same thing with pivotal. Right. It was almost like they forced to take pivotal, you know, by pivotal, right. For 2 billion or whatever it was. All right. Do something with it. Okay. We're gonna try to do something with it and they try to go out and compete. And now they're saying, Hey, let's just open it up. Whatever they want to use, let 'em use it. So unlike and I said this yesterday, unlike snowflake has to attract developers to build on their unique platform. Okay. I think VMware's taken a different approach saying use whatever you want to use. We're gonna help the ops guys. And that, to me, a new op >>Very sensitive, >>The new ops, the new ops guys. Yes. Yes. >>I think another challenge on the right right. Is on, on the op site is like, if, if you are cloud native, you are a new company. You just, when you're a startup, you are cloud native, right. Then it's hard for VMware to convince them to, Hey, you know, come to us and use this. Right. It's very hard. It is. They're a good play for a while. At least they, they can prolong their life by innovating along the way because of the, the skills gravity, I call it of the developers and operators actually that's their, they, they have a loyal community they have and all that stuff. And by the way, the name change for the show. I think they're trying to get out of that sort of culty kind of nature of the, their communities that they force. The communities actually can force the companies, not to do certain things certain way. And I've seen that happening. And >>Well, I think, I think they're gonna learn and they already walked back their messaging. Not that they said anything overtly, but you know, the Lori, the CMO clarified this significantly, which was, they never said that they wanted to replace VM world. Although the name change implies that. And what they re amplified after the fact is that this is gonna be a continuation of the community. And so, you know, it's nuanced, they're splitting hairs, but that's, to me walking back the, you know, the, the loyalty and, and look at let's face it. Anytime you have a loyal community, you do anything of change. People are gonna be bitching and moaning. Yeah. >>But I mean, knew, worked, explore, >>Work. It wasn't bad at all. It was not a bad look. It wasn't disastrous call. Okay. Not at all. I'm critical of the name change at first, but the graphics are amazing. They did an exceptional job on the branding. They did, did an exceptional job on how they handled the new logo, the new name, the position they, and a lot of people >>Showed >>Up. Yeah. It worked >>A busy busier than all time >>It worked. And I think they, they threaded the needle, given everything they had going on. I thought the event team did an exceptional job here. I mean, just really impressive. So hats up to the event team at, at VMware pulling off now, did they make profit? I don't know. It doesn't matter, you know, again, so much going on with Broadcom, but here being in Moscone west, we see people coming down the stairs here, Dave's sessions, you know, lot of people, a lot of buzz on the content sold out sessions. So again, that's the ecosystem. The people giving the talks, you know, the people in the V brown bag, you know, got the, the V tug. They had their meeting, you know, this week here, >>Actually the, the, the red hat, the, the integration with the red hat is another highlight of, of, they announced that, that you can run that style >>OpenShift >>And red hats, not here, >>Red hat now here, but yeah, but, but, but >>It was more developers, more, you know, >>About time. I would say, why, why did it take so long? That should >>Have happened. All right. Final question. So what's the bottom line. Give us the summary. What's your take, what's your analysis of VMware explore the event, what they did, what it means, what it's gonna mean when the event's over, what's gonna happen. >>I think VMware with the VMware Explorer have bought the time with the messaging. You know, they have promised certain things with newer announcements and now it, it, it is up to them to deliver that in a very sort of fast manner and build more hooks into other sort of platforms. Right? So that is very important. You cannot just be closed system people. Don't like those systems. You have to be part of the ecosystem. And especially when you are sitting on top of the actually four or four or more public clouds, Alibaba cloud was, they were saying that they're the only VMware is only VMware based offering in mainland China on top of the Alibaba. And they, they can go to other ones as well. So I think, especially when they're sitting on top of other cloud providers, they have to build hooks into other platforms. And if they can build a marketplace of their own, that'll be even better. I think they, >>And they've got the ecosystem for it. I mean, you saw it last night. I mean, all the, all the parties were hopping. I mean, there was, there's >>A lot of buzz. I mean, I pressed, I pressed them Dave hard. I had my little, my zingers. I wanted to push the buttons on one question that was targeted towards the answer of, are they gonna try to do much more highly competitive maneuvering, you know, get that position in the middleware. Are they gonna be more aggressive with frontal competitiveness or are they gonna take the, the strategy of open collaborative and every single data point points to collaborative totally hit Culbert. I wanna do out in the open. We're not just not, we're not one company. So I think that's the right play. If they came out and said, we're gonna be this, you know? >>Yeah. The one, the last thing, actually, the, the one last little idea I'm putting out out there since I went to the Dell world, was that there's a economics of creation of software. There's economics of operations of software. And they are very good on the operation economics of operations side of things that when I say economics, it doesn't mean money only. It also means a productivity practitioner, growth. Everything is in there. So I think these vendors who are not hyperscalers, they have to distinguish these two things and realize that they're very good on the right side economics of operations. And, and that will go a long way. Actually. I think they muddy the waters by when DevOps, DevOps, and then it's >>Just, well, I think Dave, we always we've had moments in time over the past 12 years covering VMware's annual conference, formally world now floor, where there were moments of that's pat Gelsinger, spinal speech. Yeah. And I remember he was under a siege of being fired. Yeah. There was a point in time where it was touch and go, and then everything kind of came together. That was a moment. I think we're at a moment in time here with VMware Dave, where we're gonna see what Broadcom does, because I think what hop 10 and Broadcom saw this week was an EBI, a number on the table that they know they can probably get or squeeze. And then they saw a future value and net present value of future state that you could, you gotta roll back and do the analysis saying, okay, how much is it worth all this new stuff worth? Is that gonna contribute to the EBITDA number that they want on the number? So this is gonna be a very interesting test because VMware did it, an exceptional job of laying out that they got some jewels in the oven. You >>Think about how resilient this company has been. I mean, em, you know, EMC picked them up for a song. It was 640 million or whatever it was, you know, about the public. And then you, another epic moment you'll recall. This was when Joe Tuchi was like the mafia Don up on stage. And Michael Dell was there, John Chambers with all the ecosystem CEOs and there was Tucci. And then of course, Michael Dell ends up owning this whole thing, right? I mean, when John Chambers should have owned the whole thing, I mean, it's just, it's been incredible. And then Dell uses VMware as a piggy bank to restructure its balance sheet, to pay off the EMC debt and then sells the thing for $60 billion. And now it's like, okay, we're finally free of all this stuff. Okay. Now Broadcom's gonna buy you. And, >>And if Michael Dell keeps all in stock, he'll be the largest shareholder of Broadcom and own it off. >>Well, and that's probably, you know, that's a good question is, is it's gonna, it probably a very tax efficient transaction. If he takes all stock and then he can, you know, own against it. I mean, that's, that's, >>That's what a history we're gonna leave it there. Start be great to have you Dave great analysis. Okay. We'll be back with more coverage here. Day two, winding down after the short break.

[Music] thecube's coverage of red hat summit 2022 thecube has been covering red hat summit for a number of years of course the last two years were virtual coverage now the red hat summit is one of the industry's most premier events and and typically red hat summits are many thousands of people i think the last one i went to was eight or nine thousand people very heavy developer conference this year red hat has taken a different approach it's a hybrid event it's kind of a vip event at the westin in boston with a lot more executives here than we would normally expect versus developers but a huge virtual audience my name is dave vellante i'm here with my co-host paul gillin paul this is a location that you and i have broadcast from many times and um of course 2019 the summer of 2019 ibm acquired red hat and um we of course we did red hat summit that year but now we're seeing a completely new red hat and a new ibm and you wouldn't know ibm owned red hat for what they've been talking about at this conference we just came out of the keynote where uh in the in the hour-long keynote ibm was not mentioned once and only appeared the logo only appeared once on the screen in fact so this is uh very much red hat being red hat not being a subsidiary at ibm and perhaps that's justified given that ibm's track record with acquisitions is that they gradually envelop the acquired company and and it becomes part of the ibm board yeah they blue wash the whole thing right it's ironic because ibm think is going on right across the street arvin krishna is here but no presence here and i think that's by design i mean it reminds me of when you know emc owned vmware you know the vmware team didn't want to publicize that they had an ecosystem of partners that they wanted to cater to and they wanted to treat everybody equally even though perhaps behind the scenes they were forced to do certain things that they might not have necessarily wanted to because they were owned by another company and i think that you know certainly ibm's done a good job of leaving the brand separate but when they talk about the con the conference calls ibm's earnings calls you certainly get a heavy dose of red hat when red hat was acquired by ibm it was just north of three billion dollars in revenue obviously ibm paid 34 billion dollars for the company actually by today's valuations probably a bargain you know despite the market sell-off in the last several months uh but now we've heard public statements from arvind kushner that that red hat is a 5 billion plus revenue company it's a little unclear what's in there of course when you listen to ibm earnings you know consulting is their big business red hat's growing at 21 but when i remember paul when red hat was acquired stu miniman and i did a session and i said this is not about cloud this is about consulting and modernizing applications and sure there's some cloud in there with openshift but from a financial standpoint ibm was able to take red hat and jam it right into its application modernization initiatives so it's hard to tell how much of that 5 billion is actually you know legacy red hat but i guess it doesn't matter anymore it's working ibm mathematics is notoriously opaque they if the business isn't going well it'll tend to be absorbed into another number in the in the earnings report that that does show some growth so we've heard uh certainly ibm talks a lot about red hat on its earnings calls it's very clear that red hat is the growth engine within ibm i'd say it's a bit of the tail wagging the dog right now where red hat really is dictating where ibm goes with its hypercloud strategy which is the foundation not only of its technology portfolio but of its consulting business and so red hat is really in the driver's seat of of hybrid cloud and that's the future for ibm and you see that very much at this conference where uh red hat is putting out its uh series of announcements today about improvements to his hybrid cloud the new release of route 9 red hat enterprise linux 9 improvements to its hybrid cloud portfolio it very much is going its own way with that and i sense that ibm is going to go along with wherever red hat chooses to go yeah i think you're absolutely right if by the way if you go to siliconangle.com paul just published a piece on red hat reds hats their roll out of their parade which of course is as you pointed out led by enterprise linux but to your point about hybrid cloud it is the linchpin of of certainly ibm strategy but many companies hybrid cloud strategies if you think about it openshift in particular it's it's the modern application development environment for kubernetes you can get kubernetes you can buy eks you can get that for free in a lot of places but you have to do dozens and dozens of things and acquire dozens of services to do what openshift does to get the reliability the recoverability the security and that's really red hat's play and they're the the thing about red hat combining with linux their linux heritage they're doing that everywhere it's going to open shift everywhere red hat everywhere whether it's on-prem in aws azure google out to the edge you heard paul cormier today saying he expects that in the next several years hardware is going to become one of the most important you know factors i agree i think we're going to enter a hardware renaissance you've seen the work that we've done on arm i think 2017 was when red hat and arm announced kind of their initial collaboration could have even been before that today we're hearing a lot about intel and nvidia and so affinity with all of these alternative processes i think they did throw in today in the keynote power and so i think i heard that that was the other ibm branding they sort of tucked that in there but the point is red hat runs everywhere so it's fundamental to building out hybrid cloud and that is fundamental to a lot of company strategies and red hat has been all over kubernetes with openshift it's i mean it's a drum beat here uh the openshift strategy is what really makes hybrid cloud possible because kubernetes is what makes it possible to shift workloads seamlessly from platform to platform you make an interesting point about hardware we have seen kind of a renaissance in hardware these last couple of years as these specific chipsets and uh and even full-scale processors have come to market we're seeing several in the ai area right now where startups are developing full-blown chipsets and and systems uh just for ai processing and nvidia of course that's that's really kind of their stock and trade these days so uh a a company that can run across all of those different platforms a platform like like rel which can run all across those different platforms is going to have a leg up on on anybody else and the implications for application development are considerable when you when you think about we talk about a lot about these alternative processes when flash replaced the spinning disk that had a huge impact on how applications are developed developers now didn't have to wait for that that disc to spin even though it's spinning very fast it's mechanical compared to electrons forget it and and the second big piece here is how memory is actually utilized the x86 you know traditional x86 you know memory everything goes through that core processor intel for years grabbed more and more function and you're seeing now that function become dispersed in fact a lot of people think we're moving from a processor-centric world to a connect centric world meaning connecting all these piece parts alternative processors memory controllers you know storage controllers io network interface cards smartnics and things like that where the communication across those resources is now where a lot of the innovation is going you see you're seeing a lot of that and now of course applications can take advantage of that especially now at the edge which is just a whole new frontier the edge certainly is part of that equation when you look at machine learning at training machine learning models the cpu actually does relatively little work most of it is happening in gpus in these parallel processes that are going on and the cpu is kind of acting as a traffic cop and you see that in the edge as well it's the same model at the edge where more of the intelligence is going to be out in discrete devices spread across the network and the cpu is going to be less of a uh you know less of a engine of intelligence at the same time though we've got cpus with we've got 100 core cpus are on the horizon and there are even 200 and 300 core cpus that we may see in the next uh in the next couple of years so cpus aren't standing still they are evolving to become really kind of super traffic cops for all of these other processors out in the network and on the edge so it's a very exciting time to be in hardware because so much innovation is happening really at the microprocessor level well we saw this you and i lived through the pc era and we saw a whole raft of applications come about as a result of the microprocessor the shift of the microprocessor-based economy we're going to see so we are seeing something similar with mobile and the edge you know just think about some of the numbers if you think about the traditional moore's law doubling a number of transistors every let's call it two years 18 to 24 months pat gelsinger at intel promises that intel is on that pace still but if you look at the apple m1 ultra they increased the transistor density 6x in the last 15 months okay so where is this another data point is the historical moore's law curve is 40 that's moderating to somewhere down you know down in the low 30s if you look at the apple a series i mean that thing is on average increasing performance at 110 a year when you add up into the combinatorial factors of the cpu the neural processing unit the gpu all the accelerators so we are seeing a new era the thing i i i wanted to bring up paul is you mentioned ai much of the ai work that's done today is modeling that's done in the cloud and when we talk about edge we think that the future of ai is ai inferencing in real time at the edge so you may not even be persisting that data but you're going to create a lot of data you're going to be operating on that data in streams and it's going to require a whole new new architectural thinking of hardware very low cost very low power very high performance to drive all that intelligence at the edge and a lot of that data is going to stay at the edge and and that's we're going to talk about some of that today with some of the ev innovations and the vehicle innovations and the intelligence in these vehicles yeah and in talking in its edge strategy which it outlined today and the announcements that are made today red hat very much uh playing to the importance of being able to run red hat enterprise linux at the edge the idea is you do these big machine learning models centrally and then you you take the you take what results from that and you move it out to smaller processors it's the only way we can cope with it with the explosion of data that will be uh that these sensors and other devices will be generating so some of the themes we're hearing in the uh announcements today that you wrote about paul obviously rel9 is huge uh red hat enterprise linux version nine uh new capabilities a lot of edge a lot of security uh new cross portfolio capabilities for the edge security in the software supply chain that's a big conversation especially post solar winds managed ansible when you think about red hat you really i think anyway about three things rel which is such as linux it powers the internet powers everything uh you think of openshift which is application development you think about ansible which is automation so itops so that's one of the announcements ansible on azure and then a lot of hybrid cloud talk and you're gonna hear a lot of talk this week about red hat's cloud services portfolio packaging red hat as services as managed services that's you know a much more popular delivery mechanism with clients because they're trying to make it easy and this is complicated stuff and it gets more complicated the more features they add and the more the more components of the red hat portfolio are are available it's it's gonna be complex to build these hybrid clouds so like many of these so thecube started doing physical events last summer by the way and so this is this is new to a lot of people uh they're here for the first time people are really excited we've definitely noticed a trend people are excited to be back together paul cormier talked about that he talked about the new normal you can define the new normal any way you want so paul cormier gave the uh the the intro keynote bidani interviewed amex stephanie cheris interviewed accenture both those firms are coming out stephanie's coming on with the in accenture as well matt hicks talked about product innovation i loved his reference to ada lovelace that was very cool he talked about uh serena uh ramyanajan a famous mathematician who nobody knew about when he was just a kid these were ignored individuals in the 1800s for years and years and years in the case of ada lovelace for a century even he asked the question what if we had discovered them earlier and acted on them and been able to iterate on them earlier and his point tied that to open source very brilliantly i thought and um keynotes which i appreciate are much shorter much shorter intimate they did a keynote in the round this time uh which i haven't seen before there's maybe a thousand people in there so a much smaller group much more intimate setting not a lot of back and forth but uh but there is there is a feeling of a more personal feel to this event than i've seen it past red hat summits yeah and i think that's a trend that we're going to see more of where the live audience is kind of the on the ground it's going to the vip audience but still catering to the virtual audience you don't want to lose them so that's why the keynotes are a lot tighter okay paul thank you for setting up red hat summit 2022 you're watching the cube's coverage we'll be right back wall-to-wall coverage for two days right after this short break [Music] you

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE. I'm Dave Nicholson, and this is part of the continuing conversation about Managing Risk in the Digital Supply Chain. I have with me today Vincent Danen, vice president of product security from Red Hat and Luke Hines security engineering lead from the office of the CTO at Red Hat. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Great to be here. >> So let's just start out and dive right into this, Vincent, what is the software or digital supply chain? What are we talking about? Yeah, that's a good question. Software supply chain is basically the software that an end user would get from a vendor or in our case, we're talking about open source, so upstream. It is the software that comes in that is part of your package, operating system, applications. It could be something that you get from one vendor, multiple vendors. So we look at in the example of Red Hat, we are one part of the customer's software supply chain. >> So it's interesting that it's coming in from different areas. Do we have a sense for the ratio of kind of commercial software versus open source software that makes up an enterprise today? >> I think that's a really hard thing to answer and I think every enterprise or every company would have a little bit different. Depends if you have an open source vendor that you choose, you may get a significant amount of software from them. Certainly you're not going to get it all. As an example, Red Hat provides thousands of open source packages. We certainly can't provide all of them. There are millions that are out there. So when you're looking at a specific application that you're building, chances are, you could be running that on a managed platform or an enterprise supply platform, but there are going to be packages that you're going to be obtaining from other sources in other communities as well in order to power your applications. >> So, Luke, that sounds like a kind of a vague situation we're looking at in terms of where all of our software is coming from. So what do we need to know about our software supply chain in that context? What do we need to understand? Before we even get anywhere near the idea of securing it, what are some of the issues that arise from that? >> Yeah, so Vincent's touchpoint is a very wide range in ecosystem, multiple sources when we're talking about open source. So essentially awareness is key really. I think a lot of people are really not aware of the sources that they're drawing from to create their own supply chain. So there's multiple supply chains. You can be somebody like Red Hat that the provide software, and then people will leverage Red Hats for their own supply chain. And then you have the cloud provider and they have their own source of software. So I think that the key thing is the awareness of how much you rely upon that ecosystem before we look at the security of the supply chain. It's really understanding your supply chain. >> And just to follow up on that. So can you... I'm sort of checking my own level of understanding on this subject. When you talk about open source code, you're talking about a code base that is often maintained essentially by volunteers, isn't that correct? >> A mix of volunteers and paid professionals where a company has an interest in the open source project, but predominantly I would say it's... Well, I'm not entirely sure, but volunteers make up a substantial part of the ecosystem that is for sure. So it's a mix really. Some people do it because they enjoy writing software. They want to share software. Other people also enjoy working software, but they're in the position that a company pays for them to work on that software. So it's a mix of both. >> Vincent, give us a reminder of reminder of why this is important from a little bit of a higher level. Step back from the data center view of things, from the IT view of things, just from a societal perspective, Vincent, what happens when we don't secure our digital supply chain? What are the things that are put at risk? >> Okay, well, there's a significant number of things that are placed at risk, the security of the enterprise itself. So your own customer data, your own internal corporate data is place at risk if there were a supply chain breach. But further to that for a software provider, and I think that in a lot of cases, most companies today are software providers or software developers. You actually put your own customers at risk as well, not just their data, but their actual... The things that they're working on, any workloads that they may have, an order that they might place as an example. So there's a number of areas where you want to have the security of that supply chain and the software components that you have figured out. You want to be on top of that because there is that risk that trickles down when it comes to an event. I mean, we've seen that with breaches earlier this year, one company is breached multiple companies end up being breached as a result of that. So it's really important. I think we all have a part to play in that I always view it as it's not just about the company itself. So I mean, speaking from a Red Hat perspective, I don't look at it as we're just securing Red Hat, we're securing our customers, and then we're also doing that for their customers as well, because they're writing software that's running on the software that we're providing to them. So there is this trickle down effect that comes, and so I think that every link in that chain, I mean, it's wonderful that it's called a supply chain. It's only as strong as its weakest link. So our view is how do we strengthen every link in that chain? And we're one part of it, but we're kind of looking a little broader, what can we do upstream and how can we help our customers to ensure the security of their part in that supply chain? >> Yeah, I want to talk about that in a broad sense, but let's see if we can get a little bit more specific in terms of what some of the chains look like because it's not just really one chain when you think about it, there's the idea of inherent flaws that can be caught and then there are the things that bad actors might be doing to leverage those flaws. So you've got all of these different things that are converging. So first and Vincent, if you want to toss this to Luke back and forth, it's up to you guys. What about this issue of inherent flaws in code? We referenced this idea of the maintainer community. What are best practices for locking that down to make sure that there aren't inherent flaws or security risks? >> I'll take a stab at it, and then I'll let Luke follow up with maybe some of the technologies that Red Hat provides. And again, speaking to Red Hat as part of that chain. When we're talking about inherent risk, there's a vulnerability that's present upstream. We pull that software to Red Hat. We package it as a component of one of the pieces of software that we provide to our customers. It's our responsibility to pay attention to those upstream potential vulnerabilities, potential risks, and correct them in our code. So that might be taking a patch from upstream, applying it to our software, might be grabbing the latest version from upstream, whatever the case might be, but it's our responsibility to provide that protection for that software to actually remediate that risk, and then our customers can then install the update and apply the mitigation themselves. If we take a look at it from, when we're looking at multiple suppliers where you'd asked earlier about, what part of it is Red Hat and what part of it is self-service open source? When you look at that, the work that Red Hat's doing there as a commercial provider of open source and end user for that little bit that they're going to grab themselves, that Red Hat doesn't provide, it's going to have to do all of those things as well. They're going to have to pay attention to that risk from upstream. They're going to have to pay attention to any potential vulnerabilities and pull that in to figure out, do I need to patch? Where do I need to patch it? And that's something we didn't really touch on was an inventory of the software that you have in place. I mean, you don't know that you need to fix something. You don't even know that it's running. So, I mean, there's a lot of considerations there where you have to pay attention to a lot of sources. Certainly there's metadata, automation, all of these things that make it easier, but it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility across the board to pay attention to these things, whether you're grabbing it from upstream directly or from the vendor. And it's the vendor's responsibility to then be paying attention to things upstream. >> Yeah, so Luke, I want you to kind of riff on that from the perspective that let's just assume that Vincent was just primarily talking about the idea that, okay, we've established that this code is solid and we've got gold copy of it and we know it's okay. There aren't inherent problems in the code as far as we can tell. Well, that's fine. I'm a developer. I go out to pull code and to use. How do I know if it's not been tampered with? How do I know if it's in fact the code that was validated during this process before? What do you do about that? >> So there's several methods there, but I just like to loop back to that point, because I think this is really interesting around, so if you look at a software supply chain, this is a mix of humans and machines, and both have flaws, probably humans a bit more. And a supply chain, you have developers. You have code reviewers, you have your systems administrators that set up the systems, and then you have your machine actors. So you've got your build systems, the various machines that are part of that supply chain. Now the humans, there's a as an attack factor there 'cause typically they will have some sort of identity, which they leverage for access to the supply chain. So quite often a developer's identity can be compromised. So a lot of the time people will have a corporate account that gives them some sort of single sign on access to multiple systems. So the developers are coming and this could be somebody in the community as well. Their account is compromised, then they're able to easily backdoor systems. So that's one aspect. And then there is machines as well. There's the whole premise of machines software not being up to date. So when the latest nasty vulnerability is released, machines are updated, then the machines have their flaws. They can be exploited. So I would say it's not just a technical problem. There is a humanistic element to this as well around protecting your supply chain. And I would say a really good perspective to carry when you're looking to, how do I secure my supply chain is treat it like you would a production system. So what do I mean by that? When we put something into production and we've got this very long legacy of treating it with a very strict security context around who can access that people, okay. How much it's upgraded and it's patched? And we seem to not have this same perception around our supply chain and our build systems, the integrity of those, the access of those, the policy around the access and so forth. So that's one giveaway that I would say is a real key focus that you should have is treat it like a production system. Be very mindful about what you're bringing in, who can access it because it is the keys to the kingdom, because if somebody compromises your supply chain, your build systems and so forth, they can compromise the whole chain because the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. So that's what I draw upon it. And around the verifications, there is multiple technologies that you can leverage. So Red Hat, we've got a very robust sign in system that we use so that you can be sure that the packages that we get you have non-repudiation that they've been produced by Red Hat. When you update your system, that's automatically looked after. And there are other systems as well, there's other new technologies that are starting to get a foothold around the provenance of aspects of your build system. So when you're pulling in from these multiple sources of open source communities, you can have some provenance around what you're putting in as well. And yeah, I don't want to bite share too much on the technologies, but there's some exciting stuff starting to happen there as well. >> So let's look at an example of something, because I think it's important to understand all of these different aspects. Recently, I think actually still in the news, we found that some logging software distributed by Apache that's widely used in people's websites to gather information about... To help from a security perspective and to help developers improve things that are going on in websites. A vulnerability was discovered. I guess, first Alibaba, some folks were reported it directly to some folks at Apache and the Apache Organization. And then of all people, some folks from Minecraft mentioned it in a blog. That seems like a crazy way to find out about something that's a critical flaw. Now we're looking at this right now with hindsight. So with hindsight, what could we have done to not be in the circumstances that we're in right now? Vincent, I'll toss that to you first, but again, if Luke is more appropriate, let us know. >> No, it's a great question, and it's a hard question. >> How did you let this happen, Vincent? How did you let this happen? >> It wasn't me, I promise. (Dave laughs) >> What I mean, it's a challenging question I mean, and there's a number of areas where we focused on a lot of what we perceived as critical software. So it comes to web server applications, DNS, a number of the kind of the critical infrastructure that powers the internet. Right or wrong. Do we look at logging software as a critical piece of that? Well, maybe, maybe we should, right? Logging is definitely important as part of an incident response or just an awareness of what's going on. So, I mean, yeah, it probably should have been considered critical software, but I mean, it's open source, right? So there's a number of different logging applications. I imagine now we're scrutinizing those a little bit more, but looking beforehand, how do you determine what's critical until an event like this happens, and it's unfortunate that it happens. And I like to think of these as learning opportunities, and certainly not just for Red Hat, but for this (talking over each other) >> Certainly this is not... Yeah, this is not an indictment of our entire industry. We are all in this together and learning every day. It just highlights how complex the situation is that we're dealing with, right? >> It really is. And I mean, a lot of what we're looking at now is how do we get tools into the hands of developers who can catch some of these things earlier. And there's a lot of commercial offerings, there's a lot of open source tools that are available and being produced that are going to help with these sorts of situations moving forward. But I mean, all the tools on the planet aren't going to help if they're not being used. So, I mean, there has to be an education and an incentive for these developers, particularly, maybe in some upstream communities where they are labors of love and they're passionate projects they're not sponsored or backed by a corporation who's paying for these tools, to be able to use some of them and move that forward. I think that looking at things now, there is work to be done. Obviously there's always going to be work to be done. Not all of these tools, and we have to recognize this, they're not all perfect. They're not going to catch everything. These tools could have been... I mean, I don't know if they were running these tools or not, they could have been, and the tool simply could not have picked them up. So part of it is the proactive part. We talk a lot about shift left and moving these things earlier into the development process and that's great, and we should do it. It certainly should never be seen as a silver bullet or a replacement for a good response. And I think the really important thing to highlight with respect to this, and I mean, this touches on the supply chain issue as well, companies, especially those who never maybe saw themselves as a software development company really have to figure out and understand how to do appropriate response. Part of that is awareness, what do you have installed? Part of it is sources of information. Like how do I find out about a new vulnerability or a potential vulnerability? And then it's just the speed to respond. We know that a number of companies they have, maybe it's a Patch Tuesday, maybe it's a patch 26th of the month, maybe it's patch day of the quarter, we have to learn how to respond to these things quickly so that we can apply these mitigations and these fixes as quickly as possible to them protect ourselves and protect the end users or customers that we have, or to keep the kids from using some backdoors in Minecraft is the word. >> (laughs) Yeah. Look, this is an immensely important subject. To wrap us up on this, Luke, I'd like you to pretend that you just got into an elevator in a moderately tall building, and you have 60 seconds to share with me someone who already trusts you, you don't have to convince me of your credentials or anything. I trust you. What tools specifically do you need me to be running, tools and processes. You've got 60 seconds to say, Dave, if you're not doing these things right now, you're unnecessarily vulnerable. So ready, and go, Luke. >> So automatically update all packages. Always stay up-to-date so that when an issue does hit, you're not having to go back 10 versions and work your way forward. That's the key thing. Ensure that everything you pull in, you're not going to have 100%, but have a very strict requirement that there is non-repudiation, is signed content, so you can verify that it's not being tampered with. For your developers that are producing code, run static, dynamic analysis, API fuzzes, all of these sorts of tools. They will find some vulnerabilities for you. Be part of communities. Be part of communities, help chop the wood and carry the water because the log for Jay, the thing is that was found because it was in the open. If it wasn't any open, it wouldn't have been found. And I've been in this business for a long time. Software developers will always write bugs. I do. Some of them will be security bugs. That's never going to change. So it's not about stopping something that's inevitable. It's about being prepared to react accordingly in our right and correct manner when it does happen so that you can mitigate against those risks. >> Well, we're here on the 35th floor. That was amazing. Thank you, Luke. Vincent, you were in the elevator also listening in on this conversation. Did we miss anything? >> No, I mean, the only thing I'll say is that it's really helpful to partner with an enterprise open source provider, be it Red Hat or anybody else. I don't want to toot our own horn. They do a lot of that work on your behalf that you don't have to do. A lot of the things that Luke was talking about, those providers do, so you don't have to. And that's where you.. I liked that you talked about, hey, you don't have to convince me that I'm trusted, or that I trust you. Trust those vendors. They're literally here to do a lot of that heavy lifting for you and trust the process. Yeah, it's a very, very good point. And I know that sometimes it's hard to get to that point where you are the trusted advisor. Both of you certainly are. And with that, I would like to thank you very much for an interesting conversation. Gentlemen, let's keep in touch. You're always welcome on theCUBE. Luke, second time, getting a chance to talk to you on theCUBE personally. Fantastic. With that, I would like to thank everyone for joining this very special series on theCUBE. Managing risk in the digital supply chain is a critical topic to keep on top of. Thanks for tuning into theCUBE. We'll be back soon. I'm Dave Nicholson saying, thanks again. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to theCUBE. I'm Dave Nicholson, and this is part of the continuing conversation about Managing Risk in the Digital Supply Chain. I have with me today Vincent Danen, vice president of product security from Red Hat and Luke Hines security engineering lead from the office of the CTO at Red Hat. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. >> Thank you. >> Great to be here. >> So let's just start out and dive right into this, Vincent, what is the software or digital supply chain? What are we talking about? Yeah, that's a good question. Software supply chain is basically the software that an end user would get from a vendor or in our case, we're talking about open source, so upstream. It is the software that comes in that is part of your package, operating system, applications. It could be something that you get from one vendor, multiple vendors. So we look at in the example of Red Hat, we are one part of the customer's software supply chain. >> So it's interesting that it's coming in from different areas. Do we have a sense for the ratio of kind of commercial software versus open source software that makes up an enterprise today? >> I think that's a really hard thing to answer and I think every enterprise or every company would have a little bit different. Depends if you have an open source vendor that you choose, you may get a significant amount of software from them. Certainly you're not going to get it all. As an example, Red Hat provides thousands of open source packages. We certainly can't provide all of them. There are millions that are out there. So when you're looking at a specific application that you're building, chances are, you could be running that on a managed platform or an enterprise supply platform, but there are going to be packages that you're going to be obtaining from other sources in other communities as well in order to power your applications. >> So, Luke, that sounds like a kind of a vague situation we're looking at in terms of where all of our software is coming from. So what do we need to know about our software supply chain in that context? What do we need to understand? Before we even get anywhere near the idea of securing it, what are some of the issues that arise from that? >> Yeah, so Vincent's touchpoint is a very wide range in ecosystem, multiple sources when we're talking about open source. So essentially awareness is key really. I think a lot of people are really not aware of the sources that they're drawing from to create their own supply chain. So there's multiple supply chains. You can be somebody like Red Hat that the provide software, and then people will leverage Red Hats for their own supply chain. And then you have the cloud provider and they have their own source of software. So I think that the key thing is the awareness of how much you rely upon that ecosystem before we look at the security of the supply chain. It's really understanding your supply chain. >> And just to follow up on that. So can you... I'm sort of checking my own level of understanding on this subject. When you talk about open source code, you're talking about a code base that is often maintained essentially by volunteers, isn't that correct? >> A mix of volunteers and paid professionals where a company has an interest in the open source project, but predominantly I would say it's... Well, I'm not entirely sure, but volunteers make up a substantial part of the ecosystem that is for sure. So it's a mix really. Some people do it because they enjoy writing software. They want to share software. Other people also enjoy working software, but they're in the position that a company pays for them to work on that software. So it's a mix of both. >> Vincent, give us a reminder of reminder of why this is important from a little bit of a higher level. Step back from the data center view of things, from the IT view of things, just from a societal perspective, Vincent, what happens when we don't secure our digital supply chain? What are the things that are put at risk? >> Okay, well, there's a significant number of things that are placed at risk, the security of the enterprise itself. So your own customer data, your own internal corporate data is place at risk if there were a supply chain breach. But further to that for a software provider, and I think that in a lot of cases, most companies today are software providers or software developers. You actually put your own customers at risk as well, not just their data, but their actual... The things that they're working on, any workloads that they may have, an order that they might place as an example. So there's a number of areas where you want to have the security of that supply chain and the software components that you have figured out. You want to be on top of that because there is that risk that trickles down when it comes to an event. I mean, we've seen that with breaches earlier this year, one company is breached multiple companies end up being breached as a result of that. So it's really important. I think we all have a part to play in that I always view it as it's not just about the company itself. So I mean, speaking from a Red Hat perspective, I don't look at it as we're just securing Red Hat, we're securing our customers, and then we're also doing that for their customers as well, because they're writing software that's running on the software that we're providing to them. So there is this trickle down effect that comes, and so I think that every link in that chain, I mean, it's wonderful that it's called a supply chain. It's only as strong as its weakest link. So our view is how do we strengthen every link in that chain? And we're one part of it, but we're kind of looking a little broader, what can we do upstream and how can we help our customers to ensure the security of their part in that supply chain? >> Yeah, I want to talk about that in a broad sense, but let's see if we can get a little bit more specific in terms of what some of the chains look like because it's not just really one chain when you think about it, there's the idea of inherent flaws that can be caught and then there are the things that bad actors might be doing to leverage those flaws. So you've got all of these different things that are converging. So first and Vincent, if you want to toss this to Luke back and forth, it's up to you guys. What about this issue of inherent flaws in code? We referenced this idea of the maintainer community. What are best practices for locking that down to make sure that there aren't inherent flaws or security risks? >> I'll take a stab at it, and then I'll let Luke follow up with maybe some of the technologies that Red Hat provides. And again, speaking to Red Hat as part of that chain. When we're talking about inherent risk, there's a vulnerability that's present upstream. We pull that software to Red Hat. We package it as a component of one of the pieces of software that we provide to our customers. It's our responsibility to pay attention to those upstream potential vulnerabilities, potential risks, and correct them in our code. So that might be taking a patch from upstream, applying it to our software, might be grabbing the latest version from upstream, whatever the case might be, but it's our responsibility to provide that protection for that software to actually remediate that risk, and then our customers can then install the update and apply the mitigation themselves. If we take a look at it from, when we're looking at multiple suppliers where you'd asked earlier about, what part of it is Red Hat and what part of it is self-service open source? When you look at that, the work that Red Hat's doing there as a commercial provider of open source and end user for that little bit that they're going to grab themselves, that Red Hat doesn't provide, it's going to have to do all of those things as well. They're going to have to pay attention to that risk from upstream. They're going to have to pay attention to any potential vulnerabilities and pull that in to figure out, do I need to patch? Where do I need to patch it? And that's something we didn't really touch on was an inventory of the software that you have in place. I mean, you don't know that you need to fix something. You don't even know that it's running. So, I mean, there's a lot of considerations there where you have to pay attention to a lot of sources. Certainly there's a metadata automation, all of these things that make it easier, but it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility across the board to pay attention to these things, whether you're grabbing it from upstream directly or from the vendor. And it's the vendor's responsibility to then be paying attention to things upstream. >> Yeah, so Luke, I want you to kind of riff on that from the perspective that let's just assume that Vincent was just primarily talking about the idea that, okay, we've established that this code is solid and we've got gold copy of it and we know it's okay. There aren't inherent problems in the code as far as we can tell. Well, that's fine. I'm a developer. I go out to pull code and to use. How do I know if it's not been tampered with? How do I know if it's in fact the code that was validated during this process before? What do you do about that? >> So there's several methods there, but I just like to loop back to that point, because I think this is really interesting around, so if you look at a software supply chain, this is a mix of humans and machines, and both have flaws, probably humans a bit more. And a supply chain, you have developers. You have code reviewers, you have your systems administrators that set up the systems, and then you have your machine actors. So you've got your build systems, the various machines that are part of that supply chain. Now the humans, there's a as an attack factor there 'cause typically they will have some sort of identity, which they leverage for access to the supply chain. So quite often a developer's identity can be compromised. So a lot of the time people will have a corporate account that gives them some sort of single sign on access to multiple systems. So the developers are coming and this could be somebody in the community as well. Their account is compromised, then they're able to easily backdoor systems. So that's one aspect. And then there is machines as well. There's the whole premise of machines software not being up to date. So when the latest nasty vulnerability is released, machines are updated, then the machines have their flaws. They can be exploited. So I would say it's not just a technical problem. There is a humanistic element to this as well around protecting your supply chain. And I would say a really good perspective to carry when you're looking to, how do I secure my supply chain is treat it like you would a production system. So what do I mean by that? When we put something into production and we've got this very long legacy of treating it with a very strict security context around who can access that people, okay. How much it's upgraded and it's patched? And we seem to not have this same perception around our supply chain and our build systems, the integrity of those, the access of those, the policy around the access and so forth. So that's one giveaway that I would say is a real key focus that you should have is treat it like a production system. Be very mindful about what you're bringing in, who can access it because it is the keys to the kingdom, because if somebody compromises your supply chain, your build systems and so forth, they can compromise the whole chain because the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. So that's what I draw upon it. And around the verifications, there is multiple technologies that you can leverage. So Red Hat, we've got a very robust sign in system that we use so that you can be sure that the packages that we get you have non-repudiation that they've been produced by Red Hat. When you update your system, that's automatically looked after. And there are other systems as well, there's other new technologies that are starting to get a foothold around the provenance of aspects of your build system. So when you're pulling in from these multiple sources of open source communities, you can have some provenance around what you're putting in as well. And yeah, I don't want to bite share too much on the technologies, but there's some exciting stuff starting to happen there as well. >> So let's look at an example of something, because I think it's important to understand all of these different aspects. Recently, I think actually still in the news, we found that some logging software distributed by Apache that's widely used in people's websites to gather information about... To help from a security perspective and to help developers improve things that are going on in websites. A vulnerability was discovered. I guess, first Alibaba, some folks were reported it directly to some folks at Apache and the Apache Organization. And then of all people, some folks from Minecraft mentioned it in a blog. That seems like a crazy way to find out about something that's a critical flaw. Now we're looking at this right now with hindsight. So with hindsight, what could we have done to not be in the circumstances that we're in right now? Vincent, I'll toss that to you first, but again, if Luke is more appropriate, let us know. >> No, it's a great question, and it's a hard question. >> How did you let this happen, Vincent? How did you let this happen? >> It wasn't me, I promise. (Dave laughs) >> What I mean, it's a challenging question I mean, and there's a number of areas where we focused on a lot of what we perceived as critical software. So it comes to web server applications, DNS, a number of the kind of the critical infrastructure that powers the internet. Right or wrong. Do we look at logging software as a critical piece of that? Well, maybe, maybe we should, right? Logging is definitely important as part of an incident response or just an awareness of what's going on. So, I mean, yeah, it probably should have been considered critical software, but I mean, it's open source, right? So there's a number of different logging applications. I imagine now we're scrutinizing those a little bit more, but looking beforehand, how do you determine what's critical until an event like this happens, and it's unfortunate that it happens. And I like to think of these as learning opportunities, and certainly not just for Red Hat, but for this (talking over each other) >> Certainly this is not... Yeah, this is not an indictment of our entire industry. We are all in this together and learning every day. It just highlights how complex the situation is that we're dealing with, right? >> It really is. And I mean, a lot of what we're looking at now is how do we get tools into the hands of developers who can catch some of these things earlier. And there's a lot of commercial offerings, there's a lot of open source tools that are available and being produced that are going to help with these sorts of situations moving forward. But I mean, all the tools on the planet aren't going to help if they're not being used. So, I mean, there has to be an education and an incentive for these developers, particularly, maybe in some upstream communities where they are labors of love and they're passionate projects they're not sponsored or backed by a corporation who's paying for these tools, to be able to use some of them and move that forward. I think that looking at things now, there is work to be done. Obviously there's always going to be work to be done. Not all of these tools, and we have to recognize this, they're not all perfect. They're not going to catch everything. These tools could have been... I mean, I don't know if they were running these tools or not, they could have been, and the tool simply could not have picked them up. So part of it is the proactive part. We talk a lot about shift left and moving these things earlier into the development process and that's great, and we should do it. It certainly should never be seen as a silver bullet or a replacement for a good response. And I think the really important thing to highlight with respect to this, and I mean, this touches on the supply chain issue as well, companies, especially those who never maybe saw themselves as a software development company really have to figure out and understand how to do appropriate response. Part of that is awareness, what do you have installed? Part of it is sources of information. Like how do I find out about a new vulnerability or a potential vulnerability? And then it's just the speed to respond. We know that a number of companies they have, maybe it's a Patch Tuesday, maybe it's a patch 26th of the month, maybe it's patch day of the quarter, we have to learn how to respond to these things quickly so that we can apply these mitigations and these fixes as quickly as possible to them protect ourselves and protect the end users or customers that we have, or to keep the kids from using some backdoors in Minecraft is the word. >> (laughs) Yeah. Look, this is an immensely important subject. To wrap us up on this, Luke, I'd like you to pretend that you just got into an elevator in a moderately tall building, and you have 60 seconds to share with me someone who already trusts you, you don't have to convince me of your credentials or anything. I trust you. What tools specifically do you need me to be running, tools and processes. You've got 60 seconds to say, Dave, if you're not doing these things right now, you're unnecessarily vulnerable. So ready, and go, Luke. >> So automatically update all packages. Always stay up-to-date so that when an issue does hit, you're not having to go back 10 versions and work your way forward. That's the key thing. Ensure that everything you pull in, you're not going to have 100%, but have a very strict requirement that there is non-repudiation, is signed content, so you can verify that it's not being tampered with. For your developers that are producing code, run static, dynamic analysis, API fuzzes, all of these sorts of tools. They will find some vulnerabilities for you. Be part of communities. Be part of communities, help chop the wood and carry the water because the log for Jay, the thing is that was found because it was in the open. If it wasn't any open, it wouldn't have been found. And I've been in this business for a long time. Software developers will always write bugs. I do. Some of them will be security bugs. That's never going to change. So it's not about stopping something that's inevitable. It's about being prepared to react accordingly in our right and correct manner when it does happen so that you can mitigate against those risks. >> Well, we're here on the 35th floor. That was amazing. Thank you, Luke. Vincent, you were in the elevator also listening in on this conversation. Did we miss anything? >> No, I mean, the only thing I'll say is that it's really helpful to partner with an enterprise open source provider, be it Red Hat or anybody else. I don't want to toot our own horn. They do a lot of that work on your behalf that you don't have to do. A lot of the things that Luke was talking about, those providers do, so you don't have to. And that's where you.. I liked that you talked about, hey, you don't have to convince me that I'm trusted, or that I trust you. Trust those vendors. They're literally here to do a lot of that heavy lifting for you and trust the process. Yeah, it's a very, very good point. And I know that sometimes it's hard to get to that point where you are the trusted advisor. Both of you certainly are. And with that, I would like to thank you very much for an interesting conversation. Gentlemen, let's keep in touch. You're always welcome on theCUBE. Luke, second time, getting a chance to talk to you on theCUBE personally. Fantastic. With that, I would like to thank everyone for joining this very special series on theCUBE. Managing risk in the digital supply chain is a critical topic to keep on top of. Thanks for tuning into theCUBE. We'll be back soon. I'm Dave Nicholson saying, thanks again. (upbeat music)

>>welcome back everyone to the cube con cloud, David Kahn coverage. I'm john for a host of the cube, we're here in person, 2020 20 a real event, it's a hybrid event, we're streaming live to you with all the great coverage and guests coming on next three days. Clayton Coleman's chief Hybrid cloud architect for Red Hat is joining me here to go over viewers talk but also talk about hybrid cloud. Multi cloud where it's all going road red hats doing great to see you thanks coming on. It's a pleasure to be >>back. It's a pleasure to be back in cuba con. >>Uh it's an honor to have you on as a chief architect at Red Hat on hybrid cloud. It is the hottest area in the market right now. The biggest story we were back in person. That's the biggest story here. The second biggest story, that's the most important story is hybrid cloud. And what does it mean for multi cloud, this is a key trend. You just gave a talk here. What's your take on it? You >>know, I, I like to summarize hybrid cloud as the answer to. It's really the summarization of yes please more of everything, which is, we don't have one of anything. Nobody has got any kind of real footprint is single cloud. They're not single framework, they're not single language, they're not single application server, they're not single container platform, they're not single VM technology. And so, um, and then, you know, looking around here in this, uh, partner space where eight years into kubernetes and there is an enormous ecosystem of tools, technologies, capabilities, add ons, plug ins components that make our applications better. Um the modern application landscape is so huge that I think that's what hybrid really is is it's we've got all these places to run stuff more than ever and we've got all this stuff to run more than ever and it doesn't slow down. So how do we bring sanity to that? How do we understand it? Bring it together and companies has been a big part of that, like it unlocked some of that. What's the next step? >>Yeah, that's a great, great commentary. I want to take into the kubernetes piece but you know, as we've been reporting the digital transformation at all time, high speed is the number one request. People want to go faster, not just speeds and feeds, but like ship code fast to build apps faster. Make it all run faster and secure. Okay, check, get that. Look what we were 15, 15 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago, 2016. The first coupe con in Seattle we were there for small events kubernetes, we gotta sell it, figure it out. Right convince people >>that it's a it's worth >>it. Yeah. So what's your take on that? Well, I mean, it's mature, it's kind of de facto standard at this point. What's missing. Where is it? >>So I think Kubernetes has succeeded at the core mission which is helping us stop worrying about all the problems that we spent endless amounts of time arguing about, how do I deploy software, How do I roll it out? But in the meantime we've added more types of software. You know, the rise of ai ml um you know, the whole the whole ecosystem around training software models like what is a what is an Ai model? Is it look like an application, does it look like a job? It's part batch, part service. Um It's spread out to the edge. We've added mobile devices. The explosion in mobile computing over the last 10 years has co evolved. And so kubernetes succeeded at that kind of set a floor for what everybody thought was an application. And in the meantime we've added all these other parts of the application. >>It's funny, you know, David Anthony, we're talking about what's to minimum and networks at red hat will be on later. Back in the first two cubicles were like, you know, this is like a TCP I P moment, the Os I model that was a killer part of the stack. Now it was all standardized below TCP I. P. Company feels like a similar kind of construct where it's unifying, is creating some enablement, It's enabling some innovation and it kind of brought everyone together at the same time everyone realized that that's real, >>the whole >>cloud native is real. And now we're in an era now where people are talking about doing things that are completely different. You mentioned as a batch job house ai new software paradigm development paradigms, not to suffer during the lifecycle, but just like software development in general is impacted. >>Absolutely. And you know, the components like, you know, we spent a lot of time talking about how to test and build application, but those are things that we all kind of internalized now we we have seen the processes is critical because it's going to be in lots of places, people are looking to standardize. But sometimes the new technology comes up alongside the side, the thing we're trying to standardize, we're like, well let's just use the new technology instead function as a service is kind of uh it came up, you know, kubernetes group K Native. And then you see, you know, the proliferation of functions as a service choices, what do people use? So there's a lot of choice and we're all building on those common layers, but everybody kind of has their own opinions, everybody's doing something subtly different. >>Let me ask you your opinion on on more under the Hood kind of complexity challenge. There's general consensus in the industry that does a lot of complexity. Okay, you don't mean debate that, but that's in a way, a good thing in the sense if you solve that, that's where innovation comes in. So the goal is to solve complexity, abstract out of the heavy lifting under heavy living in Sandy Jackson. And I would say, or abstract away complexity make things easier to use >>Well and an open source and this ecosystem is an amazing um it's one of the most effective methods we've ever found for trying every possible solution and keeping the five or six most successful and that's a little bit like developers, developers flow downhill, developers are going to do, it's easy if it's easier to put a credit card in and go to the public cloud, you're gonna do it if you can take control away from the teams at your organization that are there to protect you, but maybe aren't as responsive as you like. People will, people will go around those. And so I think a little bit of what we're trying to do is what are the commonalities that we could pick out of this ecosystem that everybody agrees on and make those the downhill path that people follow, not putting a credit card into a cloud, but offering a way for you not to think about what clouds are on until you need to write, because you want to go to the fridge is a developer, you wanna go the fridge, pull out your favorite brand of soda, that favorite band Isoda might have an AWS label also >>talk about the open shift and the Kubernetes relationship, you guys push the boundaries. Um Den is being controlled playing and nodes, these are things that you talked about in your talk, talk about because you guys made some good bets on open shift, we've been covering that, how's that playing out now? It's a relationship now >>is interesting coming into kubernetes, we came in from the platform as a service angle, right, Platform as a service was the first iteration of trying to make the lowest cost path for developers to flow to business value um and so we added things on top of kubernetes, we knew that we were going to complex, so we built in a little bit um in our structure and our way of thinking about cube that it was never going to be just that basic bare bones package that you're gonna have to make choices for people that made sense. Ah obviously as the ecosystems grown, we've tried to grow with it, we've tried to be a layer above kubernetes, we've tried to be a layer in between kubernetes, we've tried to be a layer underneath kubernetes and all of these are valid places to be. Um I think that next step is we're all kind of asking, you know, we've got all this stuff, are there any ways that we can be more efficient? So I like to think about practical benefits, what is a practical benefit That a little bit of opinion nation could bring to this ecosystem and I think it's around applications, it's being application centric, it's what is a team, 90% of the time need to be successful, they need a way to get their code out, they need to get it to the places that they wanted to be, and that place is everywhere. It's not one cloud or on premises or a data center, it's the edge, it's running as a lambda. It's running inside devices that might be being designed in this very room today. >>It's interesting. You know, you're an architect, but also the computer science industry is the people who were trained in the area are learning. It's pretty fascinating and almost intoxicating right now in this this market because you have an operating system, dynamic systems kind of programming model with distributed cloud, edge on fire, that's only gonna get more complicated with 5G and high density data applications. Um and then you've got this changing modal mode of operations were programming with bots and Ai and machine learning to new things, but it's kind of the same distributed computing paradigm. Yeah. What's your reaction to that? >>Well, and it's it's interesting. I was kind of described like layers. We've gone from Lenox replaced proprietary UNIX or mainframe to virtualization, which, and then we had a lot of Lennox, we had some windows too. And then we moved to public cloud and private cloud. We brought config management and moved to kubernetes, um we still got that. Os at the heart of what we do. We've got, uh application libraries and we've shared services and common services. I think it's interesting like to learn from Lennox's lesson, which is we want to build an open expansive ecosystem, You're kind of like kind of like what's going on. We want to pick enough opinion nation that it just works because I think just works is what, let's be honest, like we could come up with all the great theories of what the right way computers should be done, but it's gonna be what's easy, what gets people help them get their jobs done, trying to time to take that from where people are today on cube in cloud, on multiple clouds, give them just a little bit more consolidation. And I think it's a trick people or convince people by showing them how much easier it could be. >>You know, what's interesting around um, what you guys have done a red hat is that you guys have real customers are demanding, you have enterprise customers. So you have your eye on the front edge of the, of the bleeding edge, making things easier. And I think that's good enough is a good angle, but let's, let's face it, people are just lifting and shifting to the cloud now. They haven't yet re factored and re factoring is a concept of taking what you're doing in the cloud of taking advantage of new services to change the operating dynamic and value proposition of say the application. So the smart money is all going there, seeing the funding come into applications that are leveraging the new platform? Re platform and then re factoring what's your take on that because you got the edge, you have other things happening. >>There are so many more types of applications today. And it's interesting because almost all of them start with real practical problems that enterprises or growing tech companies or companies that aren't tech companies but have a very strong tech component. Right? That's the biggest transformation the last 15 years is that you can be a tech company without ever calling yourself a tech company because you have a website and you have an upset and your entire business model flows like that. So there is, I think pragmatically people are, they're okay with their footprint where it is. They're looking to consolidate their very interested in taking advantage of the scale that modern cloud offers them and they're trying to figure out how to bring all the advantages that they have in these modern technologies to these new footprints and these new form factors that they're trying to fit into, whether that's an application running on the edge next to their load bouncer in a gateway, in telco five Gs happening right now. Red hat's been really heavily involved in a telco ecosystem and it's kubernetes through and through its building on those kinds of principles. What are the concepts that help make a hybrid application, an application that spans the data flowing from a device back to the cloud, out to a Gateway processed by a big data system in a private region, someplace where computers cheap can't >>be asylum? No, absolutely not has to be distributed non siloed based >>and how do we do that and keep security? How do we help you track where your data is and who's talking to whom? Um there's a lot of, there's a lot of people here today who are helping people connect. I think that next step that contact connectivity, the knowing who's talking and how they're connecting, that'll be a fundamental part of what emerges as >>that's why I think the observe ability to me is the data is really about a data funding a new data sector of the market that's going to be addressable. I think data address ability is critical. Clayton really appreciate you coming on. And giving a perspective an expert in the field. I gotta ask you, you know, I gotta say from a personal standpoint how open source has truly been a real enabler. You look at how fast new things could come in and be adopted and vetted and things get kicked around people try stuff that fails, but it's they they build on each other. Right? So a I for example, it's just a great example of look at what machine learning and AI is going on, how fast that's been adopted. Absolutely. I don't think that would be done in open source. I have to ask you guys at red hat as you continue your mission and with IBM with that partnership, how do you see people participating with you guys? You're here, you're part of the ecosystem, big player, how you guys continue to work with the community? Take a minute to share what you're working on. >>So uh first off, it's impossible to get anything done I think in this ecosystem without being open first. Um and that's something the red at and IBM are both committed to. A lot of what I try to do is I try to map from the very complex problems that people bring to us because every problem in applications is complex at some later and you've got to have the expertise but there's so much expertise. So you got to be able to blend the experts in a particular technology, the experts in a particular problem domain like the folks who consult or contract or helped design some of these architectures or have that experience at large companies and then move on to advise others and how to proceed. And then you have to be able to take those lessons put them in technology and the technology has to go back and take that feedback. I would say my primary goal is to come to these sorts of events and to share what everyone is facing because if we as a group aren't all working at some level, there won't be the ability of those organizations to react because none of us know the whole stack, none of us know the whole set of details >>And this text changing too. I mean you got to get a reference to a side while it's more than 80s metaphor. But you know, but that changed the game on proprietary and that was like >>getting it allows us to think and to separate. You know, you want to have nice thin layers that the world on top doesn't worry about below except when you need to and below program you can make things more efficient and public cloud, open source kubernetes and the proliferation of applications on top That's happening today. I >>mean Palmer gets used to talk about the hardened top when he was the VM ware Ceo Back in 2010. Remember him saying that he says she predicted >>the whole, we >>call it the mainframe in the cloud at the time because it was a funny thing to say, but it was really a computer. I mean essentially distributed nature of the cloud. It happened. Absolutely. Clayton, thanks for coming on the Cuban sharing your insights appreciate. It was a pleasure. Thank you. Right click here on the Cuban john furry. You're here live in L A for coupon cloud native in person. It's a hybrid event was streaming Also going to the cube platform as well. Check us out there all the interviews. Three days of coverage, we'll be right back Yeah. Mm mm mm I have

>>From the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, it's the cube covering UI path forward for brought to you by UI path >>Live from Las Vegas. It's the cube. We are here with UI path at forward for I'm Lisa Martin, with Dave Volante and a lovely setting at the Bellagio. We're going to be talking about automation from the CFO's perspective. Our next guest is our jet guard group financial officer at landmark group, or just welcome to the program. >>Thank you so much. Thank >>You. Before we dig into your transformation strategy and how automation is a key to that, help the audience understand a little bit about landmark. >>Absolutely. So landmark is one of the largest, uh, non-food primarily retailer in the middle east and Asia, India, and now increasingly in Southeast Asia. So we've got about 50 brands, uh, more than half of them, which are homegrown our own brands and some franchise brands. So about 2,200 stores, uh, across 20 countries, 55,000 employees. Um, so 30 million square feet of retail space >>They company. When was the company founded, >>Uh, 48 years ago, >>Legacy institution you were mentioning before we went live that you guys have been working with UI path since 2017. So talk to me about that legacy institution, embracing cloud digital transformation and automation as a, from a visionary strategic perspective. >>Yeah. So look, I mean, you know, you get so many technologies that are being thrown at you. So I would say you have packed or robotic process automation was just another one like that. So I wouldn't say it was like part of a grand strategy. You know, it comes as it looks like, Hey, this is cool. You know, in the, in the back office, when somebody showed me first 10 desks with nobody sitting on them, it's kind of spooky. So he said, Hey, this, this looks very interesting. So it started off like that, but then it has just grown because we've stayed with it. So we've amongst things in the early part of your parts customers and, and it's been phenomenal, you know, what, uh, what we're able to do with, uh, with, uh, robotic process automation. Uh, I mean, you know, I've been in this industry with my past employers, like Proctor and gamble and Cadbury, Schweppes, and all, and essentially we used to follow the part of, you know, you eliminate all the non-value add you, then try and automate whatever your ERP system, then all allowed you to automate. >>Then what's left, you consolidate, and then you find the right shore, right. It can be offshore or wherever. So that was the sequence. But I think a lot could not be automated because there are huge gaps in the systems that are being offered and you have a mosaic of systems, every company will have. Right. Um, and then we would end up doing lot more offshore or, you know, other kinds of tactics, but then once RPA showed up on the scene, it's suddenly disrupted everything because now whatever the systems can do, or when you have to move data from one system to the other or make sense out of it, that's where this technology sits. And so that's, so that's very, I, you know, we've now got a pretty large, uh, robotic process automation practice. And, and, you know, we are touching started with finance and now we are pretty much enterprise wide. So all the, >>These technologies are coming together, automation, RPA, cloud AI, they're all sort of converging. And as a retailer, I'm curious as to what your cloud strategy is and how that fits and all, there's always a lot of sensitivity from retailers that don't want to be on Amazon, maybe some do. And they say, Hey, we've, we've we compete in other ways, what's your posture in that? >>So we've also been an early adopter of cloud, both. If I talk within the UI path thing, we were, I think the first ones to put it on the cloud, because we just saw, even before you are part, uh, we saw how people could tamper with it, you know, attended robots, you know, on the desktop one. So we went on the cloud and that was good, uh, way back. But overall, the company also has a very pro you know, Val defined cloud strategy. So we are, you know, pretty much all a large part of our systems are on the cloud with Azure. >>Yeah. So, which makes sense, right. As a retailer, go, go with Azure, plus somebody, Microsoft, you know, X, such a lot of Microsoft expertise out there that you can leverage. And I got to ask you because everybody's freaked out on wall street about power automate, you know, competing with UI path. And I've told people they kind of different parts of the spectrum, but I've talked to a lot of customers this week. So yeah, we use both. We use UI path for end-to-end automation. We use power automate for a lot of our personal productivity stuff. How do you guys, do you use, uh, the power automate? How do you see those two? Yeah, >>No, I think, look, it's inevitable. A lot of technologies will keep evolving. I think Microsoft is a fantastic company. I mean, the way they perfected teams right in time, you know, and pretty, always hit, uh, a year before COVID hit teams was not ready, you know? So I think I know power automate is good. We use it, but not as you know, it's not ready for enterprise wide. So I think more, I'm not an expert in power automate yet. Um, you know, what, it kind of seemed more like when it's linked to the office automation versus linking major enterprise wide or >>Which is really where you're headed. Yeah. Talk about the results that you've seen, the higher you're measuring the return and the whole business case. When you evaluate it as CFO, >>See it being a CFO, I wear two hats. Right. I'm trying to help digital transformation. Although I must say I'm not the only one our company has. Every function is these days talking digital. Right. Because it's almost like table stakes. Yeah. Uh, you, you can't be in business a leader and we are like a leader in all the markets we are, and there's no choice, but to be fully digital. Right. Uh, but being a CFO absolutely. You know, you do look at the hard dollars. Right. Um, and initially when you're pushing any technology to any functional head or your colleague or the CEO or the board, they do want to see the dollars because a lot of softwares talk about the soft benefits. Um, I think they gotta pay for themselves. So I think it's like, yes, if I can get the hard dollars and then I can demonstrate softer benefits, whether it is the quality of work, less errors, better compliance, right. >>Or I think employee, uh, work work-life balance, right. I mean, in, in, uh, we are, uh, in a growing company we've been growing for the last four decades and there's a constant struggle to help colleagues maintain better work life balance. So I think once the basic return is off the table, everyone's talking about the quality of work enabling. And I think now we've, we are proudly talking, you know, that, Hey, we've got a lot of people, um, we've hired them. But what we are using of them is their fingers, their eyes, ears, and that's about it. Can we now get them to use their brain? So it's like, Hey, it's a freebie. You got so many people let's start using the gray matter. And that's, I think what this technology does, it takes away the Gronk and you can then tell them, Hey, analyze the data, look at it, better business outcomes. And I think that's where the real value is. >>That is, so we've heard a lot about time saved hours saved. That's kind of the key, a key metric. And you look at that as hard dollars. How, how do you translate that to the income statement? >>So, so let's put it, uh, you know, I was looking at applied science, applied materials presentation, and they had a 150,000 hours saved. Uh, I just did our math. I mean, so we've so far saved 342,000 hours per annum removed out of the system. Right. But I would say not all I can say, I took them to the bottom line. So probably 70% of that, because the rest is probably gone back to people doing more value added stuff. >>So how does it hit the income statement? Is it hit it as new revenue or cost savings or savings reduction in >>Yeah. Or are you don't hire as many as you needed to? Uh, >>Yes. That's the missing link. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Is I was going to need to hire or what 1,100 people hire 10 or whatever it is. Okay. Now I'm sorry. Does that, is that, does that get into a debate? Like, cause I can see a lot of people, if we don't do this, we're going to, you know, and then as a CFO, you might say let's defend that a little bit. >>Seek cost avoidance is always debated. Yep. And that's why I said, as long as you can prove that the hard dollars taken to the bottom line are visible and you can put your finger on them, then people become more comfortable saying, okay, as long as you know, I've got my payback, I've got something I can, you know, make sure that my cost line is not going up because it's very easy to do, you know, kind of say, Hey look, all this soft benefits and now your cost has also gone up. So I think once the, the, the hard dollars that you can bank are out of the way, then you can talk about costs avoided, and then you can talk about the softer benefits. Are there, there is no doubt because you try and what we do is we tell people if they're in a cell, okay, we'll shut, shut it down. >>I say, Hey, wait, well, right then, you know, but so you have four years of data on this, so you can prove it. And by the way, soft dollars are where the real money is. I don't mean to denigrate that, but I get into a lot of discussions with CFO's like, okay, show me the hard dollars first and then the hard, the soft dollars or telephone numbers. Yeah. >>Yeah. I think I look at it as an inverted pyramid. Yeah. Where you start with the cost saved, which is the smaller part of the pyramid. And then you get speed, right. Because speed is actually a big thing, which is very difficult to measure. Right? I mean, I'll give you an example in none of our largest markets, right. In the middle of COVID, they announced all products that are being imported, which is for us about 80,000 of them, um, uh, need to have a whole bunch of compliance forms on the government portal, import certifications. And you got like a month to do all that work. So now you'll get an army of 20, 30 people train them. We did nothing. We built the barns and we were ready ahead of competition. And I think, and, and life continues. Now the supply chain officer will sign on the dotted line for you saying he would have had to hire 30 people. And he, it's not easy to hire suddenly, but we were compliant and, and now that's cost avoided. But I would say a big business benefit because we were the first ones to have all our products compliant with the market requirements. That's a >>Great example. >>I think about some of the IDC data that was, did you see that that was presented this morning, looking at, you know, the positive outlook as, as RPA being a jobs creator over time. Talk to me a little bit about how you've navigated that through the organization and even done upskilling of some of those folks so that they're not losing, but they're gaining. >>I think there is, you know, you have to take all these projections with a pinch of salt, you know, I mean, saying you will, the world will save $150 billion and all, I mean, if you add all the soft dollars. Yes. But in reality, you know, I lose joke about it. If you take all the technology initiatives in a company and you add all the MPVs and that they have submitted, that would be larger than the market cap of the company. >>It's true. All the projects add up to more value. >>I think, I think, you know, we don't get carried away by these major projections, but I think some of it is true. I mean, you know, I kind of talk about the Luddites, right? I mean, when the first, you know, weaving machines game in, in Northern England, near Manchester and these Luddites, they were called, they were going around breaking down these machines because they were supposed to take away jobs. Now reality is a lot of people did lose jobs who could not make the transition, could not retrain themselves. It is inevitable. It will happen. But over time I would say yes, there have been lot more employment. So I think both go hand in hand. Um, but yes, the more one can help retrain people, get them to, you know, say, Hey, you don't need to spend the rest of your life. Copy pasting and just doing data entry. Uh, you can look at the data and make sense out of it. How much >>Of that was a part of your strategic vision years ago? >>I think years ago we knew it, but it was more, let's get these, you know, simple. When you have hundreds of people in a, in a back office, how do I get them to do more work or have slate or meet my, you know, my productivity goals? I would say it starts with that. Okay. Uh, if you start, uh, deep down because I, I am, you know, I believe in technology, I knew it, it would happen that we would eventually go from, let's say, robotic process automation to intelligent process automation. Right. Which is coming for us. It's we are able to see it, you try and sell that as the lead in and people shut down >>Because they're seen by intelligent process automation. W what do you mean? And, and >>So it's look, if I've got, uh, my robots and the tech, the RP infrastructure, which is processing whole bunch of transactions right now, if I'm able to add in some machine learning or AI, or what have you on top of it, and then I can read the patterns I can, for example, you know, we, we now have built on top of all the various security in our payment systems. If you've got a bot, which then does a final check, which goes and checks the history of that particular vendor as to what is the typical payments being done to that. And then it flags, if it's V out and it stops the payment, for example, right? So, or it goes and does a whole bunch of tests. We're building constantly building tools. So that's kind of, you know, a bit more intelligent than just a simple copy paste or, or doing a transaction >>Because why that's their job or because they it's a black box. They don't know how that decision is made. Or >>I think a lot of these have been sold previously similar technologies and things that would be, you know, the next best thing since sliced water and people have lost fit. So you got to show them the money and then take them along the journey. If you go too fast and try and give this whole, you know, people are smart enough and it, it turns them off. >>It's one of the failures of the tech industry is the broken promises. I can, I can rattle many off >>Cultural shift. It is. It is. How did you help facilitate that? See, I mean, we, we took, you know, the bottoms up and top down approach, uh, you know, the top down was, uh, I have my whole leadership team and as a joke, we locked them up in the boardroom and we got them to build bonds a long ago. And we said, let each of you, you know, download your bank statement and send yourself, uh, you know, if you say any transaction above 10,000, whatever, um, send, send an email to yourself. So as simple as that, or download the electricity bill and, and send it to your wife, you know, something like that. And half of them were able to build a bot in that couple of hours. The other half looked at it, and obviously are, you know, many of them are not as tech savvy, but it helped build the kind of it's aha moment three years ago that, wow, you know, I can build a bot. Um, for some people it was like, oh, they taught these metallic 10 bots are going to walk into the room. >>I love it. The bottom who's responsible for governance. >>So we've got a, we've got a team across it and finance. Um, I mean, somehow I have kind of, you know, created the skunkworks team. The S the center of excellence sits with me. Um, uh, but overall it's a combination and they now run governance, uh, you know, 24 7, >>Uh, you know, sorry, I got to get my crypto question. I ask every CFO's, when are you going to put crypto in the balance sheet? I know I'm teasing, but what you see companies doing this? Has it ever come up in conversation? Is it sort of tongue in cheek joke? Or what do you make of the crypto? >>Yeah, I think personally I'm a big believer, uh, but not for, uh, for a company. I think the, the benefit case of a company, we are not that, you know, we have enough other face too, you know? Um, uh, I think, uh, it's a bit further out for a company to start taking balance sheet position because that's then a speculation, right? Because, so I'm a believer in the benefit of the blockchain technology. We actually did a blockchain experiment a couple of years ago, moving goods, uh, from China to Dubai and also making the payments through a blockchain to, um, so we see huge benefits. We are working with our bankers on certain other initiatives, but I think on the balance sheet sounds like speculation and use of capital. So yeah, if it brings efficiency, if it brings transparency, which is what blockchains do, uh, I think absolutely it's, it is here to stay >>Last question. And then the last 30 seconds, or so for your peers in any industry who are it was, we saw some of the stats yesterday, the amount of percentage of processes that are automateable that aren't automated. What's your advice, recommendations to peers about pulling automation into their digital transformation strategy? >>I think, um, digital transformation can be hugely aided and accelerated if you first put RPLs, because that is the layer, which goes between the humans and whatever technology is out there or whatever you keep buying. So I think because they will be in every area, new technologies coming up, it's better to put RPA first because you can then get more benefit from whatever other technologies you're bolting on. So I would say it's a predecessor to your broader digital transformation, rather than just a part of it. >>Got it. A predecessor, or just thank you for joining Dave and me on the program today, talking about what you're, how you're transforming landmark. Good luck in your presentation this afternoon. I'm sure a lot of folks will get some great takeaways from your talk. >>Thank you so much. It's been >>Great. Our pleasure for Dave Volante. I'm Lisa Martin live in Las Vegas UI path forward for it. We'll be right back after a break.

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Well, hi everybody, John Walls here on theCUBE as we continue our IBM Think initiative. And today talking with Clemens Reijnen who is the Global CTO Cloud and DevOps Leader at Capgemini. And the Clemens, thanks for joining us here on theCUBE. Good to see you today. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. Nice to be here. >> Yeah, tell us a little bit about Capgemini, if you will, first off for our viewers at home who might not be familiar with your services. Tell us a little bit about that and maybe a little bit more about your specific responsibilities there. >> So who doesn't know Capgemini in this system in the greater world and the IT world as we lived on a stone. So Capgemini is a worldwide system integrated with offerings in all kinds of spaces and all areas there. My responsibility is mainly around cloud and DevOps and taking care of countries or delivery centers have the right knowledge around cloud and the right capabilities around DevOps. And to support our customers and with their journey to the cloud into a digital organization. >> Yeah. Everybody's talking about digital these days. >> Everybody yeah. >> And it's magical digital transformation that's occurring, that's been going on for quite some time. What does that look like to you? And when you start defining digital organizations and digital transformations what are the kinds of things that you're talking about with organizations in terms of that kind of migration path? >> Yeah. So it's quite interesting to just start discussion about how does a digital landscape looks like for an organization wants to start transforming to a digital organization. And then when you are looking at that I'm always talking to discretion with business capabilities. An organization wants to create business capabilities either to interact and engage with their workforce and to make them work in the most efficient way. And what they are using for that are all kinds of different digital channels. And those digital channels they can be a mobile app. I'm working with my mobile app to connect with my work. I'm calling, I'm using zoom, I'm using teams and that kind of stuff. We also using chatbots for IT devices. And that's what the normal workforce expect nowadays. All have to have all those digital channels to interact with the business. That's also on the other side, at the customer side and organizations want to engage and grow on the customer site and have their nice interaction there. And again, they are using those digital channels all the different digital channels, maybe IoT, maybe API to interact with those customers to bring them the engagement interaction they really want to have. And in that transformation part definitely they are looking at what kind of challenges I have with working with customers like this and working with my workforce. Now everybody's working from home challenges with maybe the connections and that kind of stuff. But they are also starting to leverage, and that's where the transformation and migration start with their on-prem systems, their legacy systems to move those kinds of capabilities and enrich that with cloud native capabilities to all kinds of enterprise solutions like the ones from IBM for example, to expose that to their digital channels, to their organizations. And that's the landscape, how it looks like. And then we have the discussion with organizations. How do you want to engage with your customers? What kind of digital channels do you need? What are the business systems you have and how can we enrich them and expose them to the outside world with all the enterprise solutions around them. >> And when you talk about a process like this which sounds holistic, right? You're looking at, what do you have? Where do you want to go? What are your business needs? Which all makes great sense. But then all of a sudden you start hitting speed bumps along the way. There are always challenges in terms of deployments There are always challenges in terms of decisions and those things. So what are you hearing again from on the customer side about, what are my pain points? What are my headaches here as I know, I want to make this jump, but how do I get there? And I have these obstacles in my way. >> Yeah, definitely. And the ones I explained already which are underlooked for site and on the customer side. You want to have the engagements there you want to have interactions there. And then you have that whole digital landscape which comes with some interesting challenges. Then how do I implement this landscape in the right scalable way? How do I expose my data in such a way that it is secure? How do I leverage all the capabilities from the platforms I'm using? And how do I make all these moving parts consistent, compliant with the regulations I need to work towards to? How do I make it secure? So those are definitely big enterprise challenges like appliances, security and that kind of stuff but also technology challenges. How do I adopt those kinds of technologies? How do I make it scalable? How do I make it really an integrated solution on its own? So that my platform is not only working for the digital channels we know right now but they are also ready for the digital channels We don't know yet will start to come here. That's the biggest challenges there for me. >> Yeah. I want to get into that a little bit later too. Cause you raised a great point. Well, let's just jump right now. We know what the here now is but you just talked about building for the future building for a more expansive footprint or kinds of capabilities that frankly we're not even aware of right now. So how do you plan for that kind of flexibility that kind of agility when it's a bit unpredictable? >> Yeah. And that's what every organization tries to be agile, flexible, resilient and you need to build your system conform that. And well we normally start with you need to have a clear foundation and a foundation when, for example when you are using the cloud for it every organization is cloud for it. You want to have that foundation in such a way that those digital channels can connect really easy to it. And then the capabilities the business capabilities created are done by product teams product and feature teams are creating those kinds of capabilities on top of that cloud foundation. And in that foundation, you want to put everything in place. What makes it easy for those teams to focus on that business functionality on those business capabilities. You want to make it very easy for them to do it the right thing that I always love to say that that's what you want to put in your cloud foundation. And that's where you are harnessing your security. Every application with learning on the foundation has secure. You are embracing a standard way of working although not every DevOps teams like that they want to be organizing and that kind of stuff. But when you are having 50 or a 100 DevOps teams you'd want to have some kind of standardization and provide them a way. And again, the easy way should be the right way to provide them templates, provide them technologies so that they can really focus very quickly on those kinds of business capabilities. So the cloud foundation is the base that needs to be in place. >> Now, you've been doing this for a long time and the conversation used to be, shall we move to the cloud? Can we move to the cloud? Now it's about how fast can we move to the cloud? How much do we move to the cloud? So looking at that kind of the change in paradigm if you will, what are organizations having to consider in terms of the scale, the depth, the breadth of their offering now, because innovation and as you know, it can happen at a much faster pace than it could have just a very short time ago. >> Yeah. And then I'm reflecting again back to the easy thing should be the right thing. That's what you want to do for your DevOps. >> I love that concept. (laughs) >> And that's where you should focus on as an organization. For example, what we've put in place. We put a lot of standardization, a lot of knowledge in place in what we call in an Inner Source library. And in that Inner Source library, for example we put all kinds of strips, all kinds of templates all kinds of standardization for teams who want to deploy OpenShift on their platform or want to start working with certain cloud packs. That they can set it up very easily conforms the standards of your organization and start moving from there. And then in the cloud foundation, you have your cloud management and the IBM Cloud Manager because organizations are definitely going towards the hybrid scenarios, different organizational or units wants to start using different clouds in there. And also for the migration part you want to have that grow from there. And standardization, Inner Source and having those templates ready, it's key for organizations now to speed up and be ready to start juggling around with workloads now on any cloud where you want to and that's the idea. >> Sure. Now, so Red Hats involved in this she had IBM involved as well obviously your partnership working with them. Talk about that kind of merger of resources, if you will. And in terms of what the value proposition is to your clients at the end of the day to have that kind of firepower working in their behalf. >> Yeah. And that's for example, IBM is for us a very important partner. Definitely on the hybrid multi-cloud scenarios where we can leverage OpenShift on those kinds of platforms for our customers. And we created what I said, templates, scripts. We use the IBM garage projects for it to create deployments for our teams in a kind of self servicing way to deploy those OpenShift clusters on top of the cloud platform of their choice. And then for sure, with the multi-cloud manager from IBM we can manage that actually in the lending zone and that's actually the whole ID. And you want to give the flexibility and the speeds to your DevOps teams to be able to do the right thing is the easy thing. And then manage it from your cloud foundation so that they are comfortable that when they're putting the workloads in that whole multi hybrid cloud platform that it is managed, organized all in the right way. And that that's definitely where IBM Red Hat OpenShift comes in play. And because they have already such a great tool sets ready it really think DevOps. That's what I really like. And also with the migrations, it comes with a lot of DevOps capabilities in there not playing lift shift but also the modelisation immediately in there. And that's what I like about our partnership with IBM is just, they are DevOps in mind also. That's cool. >> Yeah. What about the speed here? Just in general, just about the, almost the pace of change and what's happening in that space cause it used to be these kinds of things took forever. It seemed like or evolutions, transitions were to take a long period of time. It's not the case anymore now that things are happening in relatively lightning speed. So when you're talking with an organization about the kinds of changes they could make and the speed at which they can do that. Marry those up for me and those conversations that you're having. And if I'm a CIO out there and I'm thinking about how am I going to flip this switch? Convince me right now, (Clemens laughing) What are the key factors? And how easy, how right will this be for me? >> So as a CIO, you want to have your scalable and your flexible organization probably at this moment, you're sitting with your on-prem system with probably a very large relational database with several components around there. And now you want to fuel those digital channels there. The great way with IBM with Red Hat is that we can deploy OpenShift container solutions everywhere and then starting to modernize those small components or at that big relational database. And we were at starting to do that, we can do that really at Lightspeed. And there are, we have a factory model up and running, where we can put in the application landscape of a customer and look at it and say, "Okay, this one is quite easy. We are running it to, or modernization street. And it runs into a container." And from there, you start to untangle actually the hair ball of your whole application landscape and starting to move those components. And you definitely want to prioritize them. And that's where you have discussions with the business, which is most valuable to move first and which one to move there. And that's actually what we put in place is the factory model to analyze an application landscape of a customer, having the discussions with those customers and then say, "Okay we are going to move these workloads first. Then we are going to analyze the count of these and then we are going to move these." And we really start rocking fast moving their workloads to the cloud and so that they can start and reach those digital channels you want to do it in half. >> Well, a great process. And I love your analogies by the way you say about hairball there. (Clemens and John laughing) I totally get it. Hey Clemens, thank you for the time today. I appreciate hearing about the Capgemini story and about your partnership with IBM. Thank you very much. >> Thank you very much. >> All right. So well, we have learned one thing the easy thing is the right thing and that's the Capgemini way of getting things done. You've been watching part of the IBM Think initiative here on theCUBE. (upbeat music)

>>mhm Yes. >>Welcome back to the Cube coverage of Red Hat summit 21 2021. I'm john for host of the Cubans virtual this year as we start preparing to come out of Covid a lot of great conversations here happening around technology. This is the emerging technology with Red hat segment. We've got three great guests steve watt manager, distinguished engineer at Red Hat hurl saying senior software engineer Red Hat and luke Hines, who's the senior software engineer as well. We got the engineering team steve, you're the the team leader, emerging tech within red hat. Always something to talk about. You guys have great tech chops that's well known in the industry and I'll see now part of IBM you've got a deep bench um what's your, how do you view emerging tech um how do you apply it? How do you prioritize, give us a quick overview of the emerging tech scene at Redhead? >>Yeah, sure. It's quite a conflated term. The way we define emerging technologies is that it's a technology that's typically 18 months plus out from commercialization and this can sometimes go six months either way. Another thing about it is it's typically not something on any of our product roadmaps within the portfolio. So in some sense, it's often a bit of a surprise that we have to react to. >>So no real agenda. And I mean you have some business unit kind of probably uh but you have to have first principles within red hat, but for this you're looking at kind of the moon shot, so to speak, the big game changing shifts. Quantum, you know, you got now supply chain from everything from new economics, new technology because that kind of getting it right. >>Yeah, I think we we definitely use a couple of different techniques to prioritize and filter what we're doing. And the first is something will pop up and it will be like, is it in our addressable market? So our addressable market is that we're a platform software company that builds enterprise software and so, you know, it's got to be sort of fit into that is a great example if somebody came up came to us with an idea for like a drone command center, which is a military application, it is an emerging technology, but it's something that we would pass on. >>Yeah, I mean I didn't make sense, but he also, what's interesting is that you guys have an open source D N A. So it's you have also a huge commercial impact and again, open sources of one of the 4th, 5th generation of awesomeness. So, you know, the good news is open source is well proven. But as you start getting into this more disruption, you've got the confluence of, you know, core cloud, cloud Native, industrial and IOT edge and data. All this is interesting, right. This is where the action is. How do you guys bring that open source community participation? You got more stakeholders emerging there before the break down, how that you guys manage all that complexity? >>Yeah, sure. So I think that the way I would start is that, you know, we like to act on good ideas, but I don't think good ideas come from any one place. And so we typically organize our teams around sort of horizontal technology sectors. So you've got, you know, luke who's heading up security, but I have an edge team, cloud networking team, a cloud storage team. Cloud application platforms team. So we've got these sort of different areas that we sort of attack work and opportunities, but you know, the good ideas can come from a variety of different places. So we try and leverage co creation with our customers and our partners. So as a good example of something we had to react to a few years ago, it was K Native right? So the sort of a new way of doing service um and eventing on top of kubernetes that was originated from google. Whereas if you look at Quantum right, ibms, the actual driver on quantum science and uh that originated from IBM were parole. We'll talk about exactly how we chose to respond to that. Some things are originated organically within the team. So uh luke talking about six law is a great example of that, but we do have a we sort of use the addressable market as a way to sort of focus what we're doing and then we try and land it within our different emerging technologies teams to go tackle it. Now. You asked about open source communities, which are quite interesting. Um so typically when you look at an open source project, it's it's there to tackle a particular problem or opportunity. Sometimes what you actually need commercial vendors to do is when there's a problem or opportunity that's not tackled by anyone open source project, we have to put them together to create a solution to go tackle that thing. That's also what we do. And so we sort of create this bridge between red hat and our customers and multiple different open source projects. And this is something we have to do because sometimes just that one open source project doesn't really care that much about that particular problem. They're motivated elsewhere. And so we sort of create that bridge. >>We got two great uh cohorts here and colleagues parole on the on the Quantum side and you got luke on the security side. Pro I'll start with you. Quantum is also a huge mentioned IBM great leadership there. Um Quantum on open shift. I mean come on. Just that's not coming together for me in my mind, it's not the first thing I think of. But it really that sounds compelling. Take us through, you know, um how this changes the computing landscape because heterogeneous systems is what we want and that's the world we live in. But now with distributed systems and all kinds of new computing modules out there, how does this makes sense? Take us through this? >>Um yeah john's but before I think I want to explain something which is called Quantum supremacy because it plays very important role in the road map that's been working on. So uh content computers, they are evolving and they have been around. But right now you see that they are going to be the next thing. And we define quantum supremacy as let's say you have any program that you run or any problems that you solve on a classical computer. Quantum computer would be giving you the results faster. So that is uh, that is how we define content supremacy when the same workload are doing better on content computer than they do in a classical computer. So the whole the whole drive is all the applications are all the companies, they're trying to find avenues where Quantum supremacy are going to change how they solve problems or how they run their applications. And even though quantum computers they are there. But uh, it is not as easily accessible for everyone to consume because it's it's a very new area that's being formed. So what, what we were thinking, how we can provide a mechanism that you can you don't connect this deal was you have a classical world, you have a country world and that's where a lot of thought process been. And we said okay, so with open shift we have the best of the classical components. You can take open shift, you can develop, deploy around your application in a country raised platform. What about you provide a mechanism that the world clothes that are running on open shift. They are also consuming quantum resources or they are able to run the competition and content computers take the results and integrate them in their normal classical work clothes. So that is the whole uh that was the whole inception that we have and that's what brought us here. So we took an operator based approach and what we are trying to do is establish the best practices that you can have these heterogeneous applications that can have classical components. Talking to our interacting the results are exchanging data with the quantum components. >>So I gotta ask with the rise of containers now, kubernetes at the center of the cloud native value proposition, what work clothes do you see benefiting from the quantum systems the most? Is there uh you guys have any visibility on some of those workloads? >>Uh So again, it's it's a very new, it's very it's really very early in the time and uh we talk with our customers and every customers, they are trying to identify themselves first where uh these contacts supremacy will be playing the role. What we are trying to do is when they reach their we should have a solution that they that they could uh use the existing in front that they have on open shift and use it to consume the content computers that may or may not be uh, inside their own uh, cloud. >>Well I want to come back and ask you some of the impact on the landscape. I want to get the look real quick because you know, I think security quantum break security, potentially some people have been saying, but you guys are also looking at a bunch of projects around supply chain, which is a huge issue when it comes to the landscape, whether its components on a machine in space to actually handling, you know, data on a corporate database. You guys have sig store. What's this about? >>Sure. Yes. So sick store a good way to frame six store is to think of let's encrypt and what let's encrypt did for website encryption is what we plan to do for software signing and transparency. So six Door itself is an umbrella organization that contains various different open source projects that are developed by the Six door community. Now, six door will be brought forth as a public good nonprofit service. So again, we're very much basing this on the successful model of let's Encrypt Six door will will enable developers to sign software artifacts, building materials, containers, binaries, all of these different artifacts that are part of the software supply chain. These can be signed with six door and then these signing events are recorded into a technology that we call a transparency log, which means that anybody can monitor signing events and a transparency log has this nature of being read only and immutable. It's very similar to a Blockchain allows you to have cryptographic proof auditing of our software supply chain and we've made six stores so that it's easy to adopt because traditional cryptographic signing tools are a challenge for a lot of developers to implement in their open source projects. They have to think about how to store the private keys. Do they need specialist hardware? If they were to lose a key then cleaning up afterwards the blast radius. So the key compromise can be incredibly difficult. So six doors role and purpose essentially is to make signing easy easy to adopt my projects. And then they have the protections around there being a public transparency law that could be monitored. >>See this is all about open. Being more open. Makes it more secure. Is the >>thief? Very much yes. Yes. It's that security principle of the more eyes on the code the better. >>So let me just back up, is this an open, you said it's gonna be a nonprofit? >>That's correct. Yes. Yes. So >>all of the code is developed by the community. It's all open source. anybody can look at this code. And then we plan alongside the Linux Foundation to launch a public good service. So this will make it available for anybody to use if your nonprofit free to use service. >>So luke maybe steve if you can way into on this. I mean, this goes back. If you look back at some of the early cloud days, people were really trashing cloud as there's no security. And cloud turns out it's a more security now with cloud uh, given the complexity and scale of it, does that apply the same here? Because I feel this is a similar kind of concept where it's open, but yet the more open it is, the more secure it is. And then and then might have to be a better fit for saying I. T. Security solution because right now everyone is scrambling on the I. T. Side. Um whether it's zero Trust or Endpoint Protection, everyone's kind of trying everything in sight. This is kind of changing the paradigm a little bit on software security. Could you comment on how you see this playing out in traditional enterprises? Because if this plays out like the cloud, open winds, >>so luke, why don't you take that? And then I'll follow up with another lens on it which is the operate first piece. >>Sure. Yes. So I think in a lot of ways this has to be open this technology because this way we have we have transparency. The code can be audited openly. Okay. Our operational procedures can be audit openly and the community can help to develop not only are code but our operational mechanisms so we look to use technology such as cuba netease, open ship operators and so forth. Uh Six store itself runs completely in a cloud. It is it is cloud native. Okay, so it's very much in the paradigm of cloud and yeah, essentially security, always it operates better when it's open, you know, I found that from looking at all aspects of security over the years that I've worked in this realm. >>Okay, so just just to add to that some some other context around Six Law, that's interesting, which is, you know, software secure supply chain, Sixth floor is a solution to help build more secure software secure supply chains, more secure software supply chain. And um so um there's there's a growing community around that and there's an ecosystem of sort of cloud native kubernetes centric approaches for building more secure software. I think we all caught the solar winds attack. It's sort of enterprise software industry is responding sort of as a whole to go and close out as many of those gaps as possible, reduce the attack surface. So that's one aspect about why 6th was so interesting. Another thing is how we're going about it. So we talked about um you mentioned some of the things that people like about open source, which is one is transparency, so sunlight is the best disinfectant, right? Everybody can see the code, we can kind of make it more secure. Um and then the other is agency where basically if you're waiting on a vendor to go do something, um if it's proprietary software, you you really don't have much agency to get that vendor to go do that thing. Where is the open source? If you don't, if you're tired of waiting around, you can just submit the patch. So, um what we've seen with package software is with open source, we've had all this transparency and agency, but we've lost it with software as a service, right? Where vendors or cloud service providers are taking package software and then they're making it available as a service but that operationalize ng that software that is proprietary and it doesn't get contributed back. And so what Lukes building here as long along with our partners down, Lawrence from google, very active contributor in it. Um, the, is the operational piece to actually run sixth or as a public service is part of the open source project so people can then go and take sixth or maybe run it as a smaller internal service. Maybe they discover a bug, they can fix that bug contributed back to the operational izing piece as well as the traditional package software to basically make it a much more robust and open service. So you bring that transparency and the agency back to the SAS model as well. >>Look if you don't mind before, before uh and this segment proportion of it. The importance of immune ability is huge in the world of data. Can you share more on that? Because you're seeing that as a key part of the Blockchain for instance, having this ability to have immune ability. Because you know, people worry about, you know, how things progress in this distributed world. You know, whether from a hacking standpoint or tracking changes, Mutability becomes super important and how it's going to be preserved in this uh new six doorway. >>Oh yeah, so um mutability essentially means cannot be changed. So the structure of something is set. If it is anyway tampered or changed, then it breaks the cryptographic structure that we have of our public transparency service. So this way anybody can effectively recreate the cryptographic structure that we have of this public transparency service. So this mutability provides trust that there is non repudiation of the data that you're getting. This data is data that you can trust because it's built upon a cryptographic foundation. So it has very much similar parallels to Blockchain. You can trust Blockchain because of the immutable nature of it. And there is some consensus as well. Anybody can effectively download the Blockchain and run it themselves and compute that the integrity of that system can be trusted because of this immutable nature. So that's why we made this an inherent part of Six door is so that anybody can publicly audit these events and data sets to establish that there tamper free. >>That is a huge point. I think one of the things beyond just the security aspect of being hacked and protecting assets um trust is a huge part of our society now, not just on data but everything, anything that's reputable, whether it's videos like this being deep faked or you know, or news or any information, all this ties to security again, fundamentally and amazing concepts. Um I really want to keep an eye on this great work. Um Pearl, I gotta get back to you on Quantum because again, you can't, I mean people love Quantum. It's just it feels like so sci fi and it's like almost right here, right, so close and it's happening. Um And then people get always, what does that mean for security? We go back to look and ask them well quantum, you know, crypto But before we get started I wanted, I'm curious about how that's gonna play out from the project because is it going to be more part of like a C. N. C. F. How do you bring the open source vibe to Quantum? >>Uh so that's a very good question because that was a plan, the whole work that we are going to do related to operators to enable Quantum is managed by the open source community and that project lies in the casket. So casket has their own open source community and all the modification by the way, I should first tell you what excuse did so cute skin is the dedicate that you use to develop circuits that are run on IBM or Honeywell back in. So there are certain Quantum computers back and that support uh, circuits that are created using uh Houston S ticket, which is an open source as well. So there is already a community around this which is the casket. Open source community and we have pushed the code and all the maintenance is taken care of by that community. Do answer your question about if we are going to integrate it with C and C. F. That is not in the picture right now. We are, it has a place in its own community and it is also very niche to people who are working on the Quantum. So right now you have like uh the contributors who who are from IBM as well as other uh communities that are specific specifically working on content. So right now I don't think so, we have the map to integrated the C. N. C. F. But open source is the way to go and we are on that tragic Torri >>you know, we joke here the cube that a cubit is coming around the corner can can help but we've that in you know different with a C. But um look, I want to ask you one of the things that while you're here your security guru. I wanted to ask you about Quantum because a lot of people are scared that Quantum is gonna crack all the keys on on encryption with his power and more hacking. You're just comment on that. What's your what's your reaction to >>that? Yes that's an incredibly good question. This will occur. Okay. And I think it's really about preparation more than anything now. One of the things that we there's a principle that we have within the security world when it comes to coding and designing of software and this aspect of future Cryptography being broken. As we've seen with the likes of MD five and Sha one and so forth. So we call this algorithm agility. So this means that when you write your code and you design your systems you make them conducive to being able to easily swap and pivot the algorithms that use. So the encryption algorithms that you have within your code, you do not become too fixed to those. So that if as computing gets more powerful and the current sets of algorithms are shown to have inherent security weaknesses, you can easily migrate and pivot to a stronger algorithms. So that's imperative. Lee is that when you build code, you practice this principle of algorithm agility so that when shot 256 or shot 5 12 becomes the shar one. You can swap out your systems. You can change the code in a very least disruptive way to allow you to address that floor within your within your code in your software projects. >>You know, luke. This is mind bender right there. Because you start thinking about what this means is when you think about algorithmic agility, you start thinking okay software countermeasures automation. You start thinking about these kinds of new trends where you need to have that kind of signature capability. You mentioned with this this project you're mentioning. So the ability to actually who signs off on these, this comes back down to the paradigm that you guys are talking about here. >>Yes, very much so. There's another analogy from the security world, they call it turtles all the way down, which is effectively you always have to get to the point that a human or a computer establishes that first point of trust to sign something off. And so so it is it's a it's a world that is ever increasing in complexity. So the best that you can do is to be prepared to be as open as you can to make that pivot as and when you need to. >>Pretty impressive, great insight steve. We can talk for hours on this panel, emerging tech with red hat. Just give us a quick summary of what's going on. Obviously you've got a serious brain trust going on over there. Real world impact. You talk about the future of trust, future of software, future of computing, all kind of going on real time right now. This is not so much R and D as it is the front range of tech. Give us a quick overview of >>Yeah, sure, yeah, sure. The first thing I would tell everyone is go check out next that red hat dot com, that's got all of our different projects, who to contact if you're interested in learning more about different areas that we're working on. And it also lists out the different areas that we're working on, but just as an overview. So we're working on software defined storage, cloud storage. Sage. Well, the creator of Cf is the person that leads that group. We've got a team focused on edge computing. They're doing some really cool projects around um very lightweight operating systems that and kubernetes, you know, open shift based deployments that can run on, you know, devices that you screw into the sheet rock, you know, for that's that's really interesting. Um We have a cloud networking team that's looking at over yin and just intersection of E B P F and networking and kubernetes. Um and then uh you know, we've got an application platforms team that's looking at Quantum, but also sort of how to advance kubernetes itself. So that's that's the team where you got the persistent volume framework from in kubernetes and that added block storage and object storage to kubernetes. So there's a lot of really exciting things going on. Our charter is to inform red hats long term technology strategy. We work the way my personal philosophy about how we do that is that Red hat has product engineering focuses on their product roadmap, which is by nature, you know, the 6 to 9 months. And then the longer term strategy is set by both of us. And it's just that they're not focused on it. We're focused on it and we spend a lot of time doing disambiguate nation of the future and that's kind of what we do. We love doing it. I get to work with all these really super smart people. It's a fun job. >>Well, great insights is super exciting, emerging tack within red hat. I'll see the industry. You guys are agile, your open source and now more than ever open sources, uh, product Ization of open source is happening at such an accelerated rate steve. Thanks for coming on parole. Thanks for coming on luke. Great insight all around. Thanks for sharing. Uh, the content here. Thank you. >>Our pleasure. >>Thank you. >>Okay. We were more, more redhead coverage after this. This video. Obviously, emerging tech is huge. Watch some of the game changing action here at Redhead Summit. I'm john ferrier. Thanks for watching. Yeah.

>>mhm Yes, Welcome back to the cubes coverage of red hat summit 2021 virtual, which we were in person this year but we're still remote. We still got the Covid coming around the corner. Soon to be in post. Covid got a great guest here, Clayton Coleman architect that red hat cuba love and I've been on many times expanded role again this year. More cloud, more cloud action. Great, great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >>It's a pleasure >>to be here. So great to see you were just riffing before we came on camera about distributed computing uh and the future of the internet, how it's all evolving, how much fun it is, how it's all changing still. The game is still the same, all that good stuff. But here at Red had some and we're gonna get into that, but I want to just get into the hard news and the real big, big opportunities here you're announcing with red hat new managed cloud services portfolio, take us through that. >>Sure. We're continuing to evolve our open shift managed offerings which has grown now to include um the redhead open shift service on amazon to complement our as your redhead open shift service. Um that means that we have um along with our partnership on IBM cloud and open ship dedicated on both a W S and G C P. We now have um managed open shift on all of the major clouds. And along with that we are bringing in and introducing the first, I think really the first step what we see as uh huh growing and involving the hybrid cloud ecosystem on top of open shift and there's many different ways to slice that, but it's about bringing capabilities on top of open shift in multiple environments and multiple clouds in ways that make developers and operation teams more productive because at the heart of it, that's our goal for open shift. And the broader, open source ecosystem is do what makes all of us safer, more, uh, more productive and able to deliver business value? >>Yeah. And that's a great steak you guys put in the ground. Um, and that's great messaging, great marketing, great value proposition. I want to dig into a little bit with you. I mean, you guys have, I think the only native offering on all the clouds out there that I know of, is that true? I mean, you guys have, it's not just, you know, you support AWS as your and I B M and G C P, but native offerings. >>We do not have a native offering on GCPD offered the same service. And this is actually interesting as we've evolved our approach. You know, everyone, when we talk about hybrid, Hybrid is, um, you know, dealing with the realities of the computing world, We live in, um, working with each of the major clouds, trying to deliver the best immigration possible in a way that drives that consistency across those environments. And so actually are open shift dedicated on AWS service gave us the inspiration a lot of the basic foundations for what became the integrated Native service. And we've worked with amazon very closely to make sure that that does the right thing for customers who have chosen amazon. And likewise, we're trying to continue to deliver the best experience, the best operational reliability that we can so that the choice of where you run your cloud, um, where you run your applications, um, matches the decisions you've already made and where your future investments are gonna be. So we want to be where customers are, but we also want to give you that consistency. That has been a hallmark of um of open shift since the beginning. >>Yeah. And thanks for clarifying, I appreciate that because the manage serves on GCB rest or native. Um let me ask about the application services because Jeff Barr from AWS posted a few weeks ago amazon celebrated their 15th birthday. They're still teenagers uh relatively speaking. But one comment he made that he that was interesting to me. And this applies kind of this cloud native megatrend happening is he says the A. P. I. S are basically the same and this brings up the hybrid environment. You guys are always been into the api side of the management with the cloud services and supporting all that. As you guys look at this ecosystem in open source. How is the role of A PS and these integrations? Because without solid integration all these services could break down and certainly the open source, more and more people are coding. So take me through how you guys look at these applications services because many people are predicting more service is going to be on boarding faster than ever before. >>It's interesting. So um for us working across multiple cloud environments, there are many similarities in those mps, but for every similarity there is a difference and those differences are actually what dr costs and drive complexity when you're integrating. Um and I think a lot of the role of this is, you know, the irresponsible to talk about the role of an individual company in the computing ecosystem moving to cloud native because as many of these capabilities are unlocked by large cloud providers and transformations in the kinds of software that we run at scale. You know, everybody is a participant in that. But then you look at the broad swath of developer and operator ecosystem and it's the communities of people who paper over those differences, who write run books and build um you know, the policies and who build the experience and the automation. Um not just in individual products or an individual clouds, but across the open source ecosystem. Whether it's technologies like answerable or Terror form, whether it's best practices websites around running kubernetes, um every every part of the community is really involved in driving up uh driving consistency, um driving predictability and driving reliability and what we try to do is actually work within those constraints um to take the ecosystem and to push it a little bit further. So the A. P. I. S. May be similar, but over time those differences can trip you up. And a lot of what I think we talked about where the industry is going, where where we want to be is everyone ultimately is going to own some responsibility for keeping their services running and making sure that their applications and their businesses are successful. The best outcome would be that the A. P. R. S are the same and they're open and that both the cloud providers and the open source ecosystem and vendors and partners who drive many of these open source communities are actually all working together to have the most consistent environment to make portability a true strength. But when someone does differentiate and has a true best to bring service, we don't want to build artificial walls between those. I mean, I mean, that's hybrid cloud is you're going to make choices that make sense for you if we tell people that their choices don't work or they can't integrate or, you know, an open source project doesn't support this vendor, that vendor, we're actually leaving a lot of the complexity buried in those organizations. So I think this is a great time to, as we turn over for cloud. Native looking at how we, as much as possible try to drive those ap is closer together and the consistency underneath them is both a community and a vendor. And uh for red hat, it's part of what we do is a core mission is trying to make sure that that consistency is actually real. You don't have to worry about those details when you're ignoring them. >>That's a great point. Before I get into some architectural impact, I want to get your thoughts on um, the, this trends going on, Everyone jumps on the bandwagon. You know, you say, oh yeah, I gotta, I want a data cloud, you know, everything is like the new, you know, they saw Snowflake Apollo, I gotta have some, I got some of that data, You've got streaming data services, you've got data services and native into the, these platforms. But a lot of these companies think it's just, you're just gonna get a data cloud, just, it's so easy. Um, they might try something and then they get stuck with it or they have to re factor, >>how do you look >>at that as an architect when you have these new hot trends like say a data cloud, how should customers be thinking about kicking the tires on services like that And how should they think holistically around architect in that? >>There's a really interesting mindset is, uh, you know, we deal with this a lot. Everyone I talked to, you know, I've been with red hat for 10 years now in an open shift. All 10 years of that. We've gone through a bunch of transformations. Um, and every time I talked to, you know, I've talked to the same companies and organizations over the last 10 years, each point in their evolution, they're making decisions that are the right decision at the time. Um, they're choosing a new capability. So platform as a service is a great example of a capability that allowed a lot of really large organizations to standardize. Um, that ties into digital transformation. Ci CD is another big trend where it's an obvious wind. But depending on where you jumped on the bandwagon, depending on when you adopted, you're going to make a bunch of different trade offs. And that, that process is how do we improve the ability to keep all of the old stuff moving forward as well? And so open api is open standards are a big part of that, but equally it's understanding the trade offs that you're going to make and clearly communicating those so with data lakes. Um, there was kind of the 1st and 2nd iterations of data lakes, there was the uh, in the early days these capabilities were knew they were based around open source software. Um, a lot of the Hadoop and big data ecosystem, you know, started based on some of these key papers from amazon and google and others taking infrastructure ideas bringing them to scale. We went through a whole evolution of that and the input and the output of that basically let us into the next phase, which I think is the second phase of data leak, which is we have this data are tools are so much better because of that first phase that the investments we made the first time around, we're going to have to pay another investment to make that transformation. And so I've actually, I never want to caution someone not to jump early, but it has to be the right jump and it has to be something that really gives you a competitive advantage. A lot of infrastructure technology is you should make the choices that you make one or two big bets and sometimes people say this, you call it using their innovation tokens. You need to make the bets on big technologies that you operate more effectively at scale. It is somewhat hard to predict that. I certainly say that I've missed quite a few of the exciting transformations in the field just because, um, it wasn't always obvious that it was going to pay off to the degree that um, customers would need. >>So I gotta ask you on the real time applications side of it, that's been a big trend, certainly in cloud. But as you look at hybrid hybrid cloud environments, for instance, streaming data has been a big issue. Uh any updates there from you on your managed service? >>That's right. So one of we have to manage services um that are both closely aligned three managed services that are closely aligned with data in three different ways. And so um one of them is redhead open shift streams for Apache Kafka, which is managed cloud service that focuses on bringing that streaming data and letting you run it across multiple environments. And I think that, you know, we get to the heart of what's the purpose of uh managed services is to reduce operational overhead and to take responsibilities that allow users to focus on the things that actually matter for them. So for us, um managed open shift streams is really about the flow of data between applications in different environments, whether that's from the edge to an on premise data center, whether it's an on premise data center to the cloud. And increasingly these services which were running in the public cloud, increasingly these services have elements that run in the public cloud, but also key elements that run close to where your applications are. And I think that bridge is actually really important for us. That's a key component of hybrid is connecting the different locations and different footprints. So for us the focus is really how do we get data moving to the right place that complements our API management service, which is an add on for open ship dedicated, which means once you've brought the data and you need to expose it back out to other applications in the environment, you can build those applications on open shift, you can leverage the capabilities of open shift api management to expose them more easily, both to end customers or to other applications. And then our third services redhead open shift data science. Um and that is a, an integration that makes it easy for data scientists in a kubernetes environment. On open shift, they easily bring together the data to make, to analyze it and to help route it is appropriate. So those three facets for us are pretty important. They can be used in many different ways, but that focus on the flow of data across these different environments is really a key part of our longer term strategy. >>You know, all the customer checkboxes there you mentioned earlier. I mean I'll just summarize that that you said, you know, obviously value faster application velocity time to value. Those are like the checkboxes, Gardner told analysts check those lower complexity. Oh, we do the heavy lifting, all cloud benefits, so that's all cool. Everyone kind of gets that, everyone's been around cloud knows devops all those things come into play right now. The innovation focuses on operations and day to operations, becoming much more specific. When people say, hey, I've done some lift and shift, I've done some Greenfield born in the cloud now, it's like, whoa, this stuff, I haven't seen this before. As you start scaling. So this brings up that concept and then you add in multi cloud and hybrid cloud, you gotta have a unified experience. So these are the hot areas right this year, I would say, you know, that day to operate has been around for a while, but this idea of unification around environments to be fully distributed for developers is huge. >>How do you >>architect for that? This is the number one question I get. And I tease out when people are kind of talking about their environments that challenges their opportunities, they're really trying to architect, you know, the foundation that building to be um future proof, they don't want to get screwed over when they have, they realize they made a decision, they weren't thinking about day to operation or they didn't think about the unified experience across clouds across environments and services. This is huge. What's your take on this? >>So this is um, this is probably one of the hardest questions I think I could get asked, which is uh looking into the crystal ball, what are the aspects of today's environments that are accidental complexity? That's really just a result of the slow accretion of technologies and we all need to make bets when, when the time is right within the business, um and which parts of it are essential. What are the fundamental hard problems and so on. The accidental complexity side for red hat, it's really about um that consistent environment through open shift bringing capabilities, our connection to open source and making sure that there's an open ecosystem where um community members, users vendors can all work together to um find solutions that work for them because there's not, there's no way to solve for all of computing. It's just impossible. I think that is kind of our that's our development process and that's what helps make that accidental complexity of all that self away over time. But in the essential complexity data is tied the location, data has gravity data. Lakes are a great example of because data has gravity. The more data that you bring together, the bigger the scale the tools you can bring, you can invest in more specialized tools. I've almost do that as a specialization centralization. There's a ton of centralization going on right now at the same time that these new technologies are available to make it easier and easier. Whether that's large scale automation um with conflict management technologies, whether that's kubernetes and deploying it in multiple sites in multiple locations and open shift, bringing consistency so that you can run the apps the same way. But even further than that is concentrating, mhm. More of what would have typically been a specialist problem, something that you build a one off around in your organization to work through the problem. We're really getting to a point where pretty soon now there is a technology or a service for everyone. How do you get the data into that service out? How do you secure it? How do you glue it together? Um I think of, you know, some people might call this um you know, the ultimate integration problem, which is we're going to have all of this stuff and all of these places, what are the core concepts, location, security, placement, topology, latency, where data resides, who's accessing that data, We think of these as kind of the building blocks of where we're going next. So for us trying to make investments in, how do we make kubernetes work better across lots of environments. I have a coupon talk coming up this coupon, it's really exciting for me to talk about where we're going with, you know, the evolution of kubernetes, bringing the different pieces more closely together across multiple environments. But likewise, when we talk about our managed services, we've approached the strategy for managed services as it's not just the service in isolation, it's how it connects to the other pieces. What can we learn in the community, in our services, working with users that benefits that connectivity. So I mentioned the open shift streams connecting up environments, we'd really like to improve how applications connect across disparate environments. That's a fundamental property of if you're going to have data uh in one geographic region and you didn't move services closer to that well, those services I need to know and encode and have that behavior to get closer to where the data is, whether it's one data lake or 10. We gotta have that flexibility in place. And so those obstructions are really, and to >>your point about the building blocks where you've got to factor in those building blocks, because you're gonna need to understand the latency impact, that's going to impact how you're gonna handle the compute piece, that's gonna handle all these things are coming into play. So, again, if you're mindful of the building blocks, just as a cloud concept, um, then you're okay. >>We hear this a lot. Actually, there's real challenges in the, the ecosystem of uh, we see a lot of the problems of I want to help someone automate and improved, but the more balkanize, the more spread out, the more individual solutions are in play, it's harder for someone to bring their technology to bear to help solve the problem. So looking for ways that we can um, you know, grease the skids to build the glue. I think open source works best when it's defining de facto solutions that everybody agrees on that openness and the easy access is a key property that makes de facto standards emerged from open source. What can we do to grow defacto standards around multi cloud and application movement and application interconnect I think is a very, it's already happening and what can we do to accelerate it? That's it. >>Well, I think you bring up a really good point. This is probably a follow up, maybe a clubhouse talk or you guys will do a separate session on this. But I've been riffing on this idea of uh, today's silos, tomorrow's component, right, or module. If most people don't realize that these silos can be problematic if not thought through. So you have to kill the silos to bring in kind of an open police. So if you're open, not closed, you can leverage a monolith. Today's monolithic app or full stack could be tomorrow's building block unless you don't open up. So this is where interesting design question comes in, which is, it's okay to have pre existing stuff if you're open about it. But if you stay siloed, you're gonna get really stuck >>and there's going to be more and more pre existing stuff I think, you know, uh even the data lake for every day to lake, there is a huge problem of how to get data into the data lake or taking existing applications that came from the previous data link. And so there's a, there's a natural evolutionary process where let's focus on the mechanisms that actually move that day to get that data flowing. Um, I think we're still in the early phases of thinking about huge amounts of applications. Microservices or you know, 10 years old in the sense of it being a fairly common industry talking point before that we have service oriented architecture. But the difference now is that we're encouraging and building one developer, one team might run several services. They might use three or four different sas vendors. They might depend on five or 10 or 15 cloud services. Those integration points make them easier. But it's a new opportunity for us to say, well, what are the differences to go back to? The point is you can keep your silos, we just want to have great integration in and out of >>those. Exactly, they don't have to you have to break down the silos. So again, it's a tried and true formula integration, interoperability and abstracting away the complexity with some sort of new software abstraction layer. You bring that to play as long as you can paddle with that, you apply the new building blocks, you're classified. >>It sounds so that's so simple, doesn't it? It does. And you know, of course it'll take us 10 years to get there. And uh, you know, after cloud native will be will be galactic native or something like that. You know, there's always going to be a new uh concept that we need to work in. I think the key concepts we're really going after our everyone is trying to run resilient and reliable services and the clouds give us in the clouds take it away. They give us those opportunities to have some of those building blocks like location of geographic hardware resources, but they will always be data that spread. And again, you still have to apply those principles to the cloud to get the service guarantees that you need. I think there's a completely untapped area for helping software developers and software teams understand the actual availability and guarantees of the underlying environment. It's a property of the services you run with. If you're using a disk in a particular availability zone, that's a property of your application. I think there's a rich area that hasn't been mined yet. Of helping you understand what your effective service level goals which of those can be met. Which cannot, it doesn't make a lot of sense in a single cluster or single machine or a single location world the moment you start to talk about, Well I have my data lake. Well what are the ways my data leg can fail? How do we look at your complex web of interdependencies and say, well clearly if you lose this cloud provider, you're going to lose not just the things that you have running there, but these other dependencies, there's a lot of, there's a lot of next steps that we're just learning what happens when a major cloud goes down for a day or a region of a cloud goes down for a day. You still have to design and work around those >>cases. It's distributed computing. And again, I love the space where galactic cloud, you got SpaceX? Where's Cloud X? I mean, you know, space is the next frontier. You know, you've got all kinds of action happening in space. Great space reference there. Clayton, Great insight. Thanks for coming on. Uh, Clayton Coleman architect at red Hat. Clayton, Thanks for coming on. >>Pretty pleasure. >>Always. Great chat. I'm talking under the hood. What's going on in red hats? New managed cloud service portfolio? Again, the world's getting complex, abstract away. The complexities with software Inter operate integrate. That's the key formula with the cloud building blocks. I'm john ferry with the cube. Thanks for watching. Yeah.