>>Hi everyone, welcome to this conversation. Lisa Martin here with Kim King, the SVP of Strategic Partners and Alliances at Hitachi. Kim, it's great to have you on the program. Thank you so much for joining me today. >>Thanks Lisa. It's great to be here. >>Let's talk about, so as we know, we talk about cloud all the time, the landscape, the cloud infrastructure landscape increasingly getting more and more complex. What are some of the biggest challenges and pain points that you're hearing from customers today? >>Yeah, so lot. There are lots, but I would say the, the few that we hear consistently, our cost, the complexity, right? Really the complexity of where do they go, how do they do it, and then availability. They have a lot of available options, but again, going back to complexity and cost, where do they think that they should move and how, how do they make that a successful move to the cloud? >>So talk to me, Hitachi vent has a great partner ecosystem. Where do partners play a role in helping customers to address some of the challenges with respect to the cloud landscape? >>Yeah, so part, our partners are really leading the way in the area of cloud in terms of helping customers understand the complexity is of the cloud. As we talked about, they're truly the trusted advisor. So when they look at a customer's complete infrastructure, what are the workloads, what are the CRI critical applications that they work with? What's the unique architecture that they have to drive with that customer for successful outcome and help them architect that? And so partners are truly leading the way across the board, understanding the complexities of each individual customer and then helping them make the right decisions with and for them. And then bringing us along as part of that, >>Talk to me a little bit about the partner landscape, the partner ecosystem at Hitachi. How does this fit into the overall sheet for the company? >>So we really look at our ecosystem as an extension of our sales organization and and really extension across the board, I would say our goal is to marry the right customer with the right partner and help them achieve their goals, ensure that they keep costs in check, that they ensure they don't have any security concerns, and that they have availability for the solutions and applications that they're trying to move to the cloud, which is most important. So we really, we really look at our ecosystem as a specialty ecosystem that adds high value for the right customers. >>So Kim, talk to me about how partners fit into Hitachi van's overall strategy. >>So I think our biggest differentiators with partners is that they're not just another number. Our partner organization is that valued extension of our overall sales pre-sales services organization. And we treat them like an extension of our organization. It's funny because I was just on a call with an analyst earlier this week and they said that AWS has increased their number of partners to 150,000 partners from, it was just under a hundred thousand. And I'm really not sure how you provide quality engagement to partners, right? And is how is that really a sustainable strategy? So for us, we look at trusted engagement across the ecosystem as a def differentiation. Really our goal is to make their life simple and profitable and really become their primary trusted partner when we go to market with them. And we see that paying dividends with our partners as they engage with us and as they expand and grow across the segments and then grow globally with us as well. >>And that's key, right? That synergistic approach when you're in customer conversations, what do you articulate as the key competitive differentiators where it relates to your partners? >>So really the, that they're the trusted advisor for that partner, right? That they understand our solutions better than any solution out there. And because we are not trying to be all things to our customers and our partners, that we being bring best breaths of breed, best of breed solutions to our customers through our partner community, they can truly provide that end user experience and the successful outcome that's needed without, you know, sort of all kinds of, you know, crazy cha challenges, right? When you look at it, they really wanna make sure that they're driving that co-developed solution and the successful outcome for that customer. >>So then how do you feel that Hitachi Ventura helps partners really to grow and expand their own business? >>Wow, so that's, there's tons of ways, but we've, we've created a very simplified, what we call digital selling platform. And in that digital selling platform, we've allowed our partners to choose their own price and pre-approve their pricing and their promotions. They've actually, we've expanded the way we go to market with our partners from a sort of a technical capabilities. We give them online what we call Hitachi online labs that allow them to really leverage all of the solutions and demo systems out there today. And they have complete access to any one of our resources, product management. And so we really have, like I said, we actually provide our partners with better tools and resources sometimes than we do our own sales and pre-sales organization. So we, we look at them as, because they have so many other solutions out there that we have to be one step ahead of everybody else to give them that solution capability and the expertise that they need for their customers. >>So if you dig in, where is it that hit Tashi van is helping partners succeed with your portfolio? >>Wow. So I think just across the board, I think we're really driving that profitable, trusted, and simplified engagement with our partner community because it's a value based and ease of doing business. I say that we allow them to scale and drive that sort of double digit growth through all of the solutions and and offerings that we have today. And because we've taken the approach of a very complex technical sort of infrastructure from a high end perspective and scaled it all the way through to our midsize enterprise, that allows them to really enter any customer at any vertical and provide them a really quality solution with that 100% data availability guarantee that we provide all of our customers. >>So then if we look at the overall sales cycle and the engagements, where is it that you're helping cus your partners rather succeed with the portfolio? >>Say that again? Sorry, my brain broke. No, >>No worries. So if we look at the overall sales cycle, where is it specifically where you're helping customers to succeed with the portfolio? >>So from the sales cycle, I think because we have the, a solution that is simple, easy, and really scaled for the type of customer that we have out there, it allows them to basically right size their infrastructure based on the application, the workload, the quality or the need that application may have and ensure that we provide them with that best solution. >>So then from a partner's perspective, how is it that Hitachi Valar is helping them to actually close deals faster? >>So lots of great ways I think between our pre-sales organization that's on call and available a hundred percent of the time. I think that we've seen, again, the trusted engagement with them from a pricing and packaging perspective. You know, we, you know, two years ago it would take them two to three weeks to get a pre-approved quote where today they pre-approved their own quotes in less than an hour and can have that in the hands of a customer. So we've seen that the ability for our partners to create and close orders in very short periods of time and actually get to the customers needs very quickly, >>So dramatically faster. Yes. Talk about overall, so the partner relationship's quite strong, very synergistic that that Hitachi Van Tara has with its customers. Let's kind of step back out and look at the cloud infrastructure. How do you see it evolving the market evolving overall in say the next six months, 12 months? >>Yeah, so we see it significantly, we've been doing a lot of studies around this specifically. So we have a couple of different teams. We have our sort of our standard partner team that's out there and now we have a specialty cloud service provider team that really focuses on partners that are building and their own infrastructure or leveraging the infrastructure of a large hyperscaler or another GSI and selling that out. And then what we found is when we dig down deeper into our standard sort of partner reseller or value added reseller market, what we're seeing is that they are want to have the capability to resell the solution, but they don't necessarily wanna have to own and manage the infrastructure themselves. So we're helping both of them through that transition. We see that it's gonna, so it's funny cuz you're seeing a combination of many customers move to really the hyperscale or public cloud and many of them want to repatriate their infrastructure back because they see costs and they see challenges around all of that. And so our partners are helping them understand, again, what is the best solution for them as opposed to let's just throw everything in the public cloud and hope that it works. We're we're really helping them make the right choices and decisions and we're putting the right partners together to make that happen. >>And how is that feedback, that data helping you to really grow and expand the partner program as a whole? >>Yeah, so it's been fantastic. We have a whole methodology that we, we created, which is called PDM plan, develop monetize with partners. And so we went specifically to market with cloud service providers that'll, and we really tested this out with them. We didn't just take a solution and say, here, go sell it, good luck and have, you know, have a nice day. Many vendors are doing that to their partners and the partners are struggling to monetize those solutions. So we spend a lot of time up front planning with them. What is not only the storage infrastructure but your potentially your data resiliency and, and everything else that you're looking at, your security solutions. How do we package those all together? How do we help you monetize them? And then who do you target from a customer perspective so that they've built up a pipeline of opportunities that they can go and work with us on and we really sit side by side with them in a co-development environment. >>In terms of that side by side relationship, how does the partner ecosystem play a role in Hitachi Ventura's as a service business? >>So our primary go to market with our, as a service business is with and through partners. So our goal is to drive all, almost all of our as a service. Unless it's super highly complex and something that a partner cannot support, we will make sure that they really, we leverage that with them, with all of our partners. >>So strong partner relationships, very strong partner ecosystem. What would you say, Kim, are the priorities for the partner ecosystem going forward? The next say year? >>Yeah, so we have tons of priorities, right? I think really it's double digit growth for them and for us. And understanding how a simpler approach that's customized for the specific vertical or customer base or go to market that they have that helps them quickly navigate to be successful. Our goal is always to facilitate trusted engagements with our partners, right? And then really, as I said, directionally our goal is to be 95 to a hundred percent of all of our business through partners, which helps customers and then really use that trusted advisor status they have to provide that value base to the customer. And then going back on our core tenants, which are, you know, really a trusted, simplified, profitable engagement with our partner community that allows them to really drive successful outcomes and go to market with us. And the end users. >>Trust is such an important word, we can't underutilize it in these conversations. Last question. From a channel business perspective, what are some of the priorities coming down the pike? >>Oh, again, my biggest priority, right, is always to increase the number of partner success stories that we have and increase the value to our partners. So we really dig in, we, we right now sit about number one or number two in, in our space with our partners in ease of doing business and value to our channel community. We wanna be number one across the board, right? Our goal is to make sure that our partner community is successful and that they really have those profitable engagements and that we're globally working with them to drive that engagement and, and help them build more profitable businesses. And so we just take tons of feedback from our partners regularly to help them understand, but we, we act on it very quickly so that we can make sure we incorporate that into our new program and our go to markets as we roll out every year. >>It sounds like a great flywheel of communications from the partners. Kim, thank you so much for joining me today, talking about what Hitachi van is doing with its partner ecosystem, the value in it for customers. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you very much. >>You're watching the Cube, the leader in live tech coverage.

>>Partnerships in the technology business, they take many forms. For example, technology engineering partnerships, they drive value in terms of things like integration and simplification for customers. There are product partnerships. They fill gaps to create more comprehensive portfolios and more fluid relationships. Partner ecosystems offer high touch services. They offer managed services, specialty services, and other types of value based off of strong customer knowledge and years of built up trust partner. Ecosystems have evolved quite dramatically over the last decade with the explosion of data and the popularity of cloud models. Public, private, hybrid cross clouds. You know, yes it's true. Partnerships are about selling solutions, but they're also about building long term sustainable trust, where a seller learns the ins and outs of a customer's organization and can anticipate needs that are gonna drive bottom line profits for both sides of the equation, the buyer and the seller. >>Hello and welcome to our program. My name is Dave Ante and along with Lisa Martin, we're going to explore how Hitachi Van Tara drives customer success with its partners. First up, Lisa speaks with Kim King. She's the senior vice president of Strategic Partners and Alliances at Hitachi Van. And they'll set the table for us with an overview of how Hitachi is working with partners and where their priorities are focused. Then Russell Kingsley, he's the CTO and global VP of Technical sales at Hitachi Van Tara. He joins Lisa for a discussion of the tech and they're gonna get into cloud generally and hybrid cloud specifically in the role that partners play in the growing as a service movement. Now, after that I'll talk with Tom Christensen, he's the global technology advisor and executive analyst at Hitachi Vitara. And we're gonna talk about a really important topic, sustainability. We're gonna discuss where it came from, why it matters, and how it can drive bottom line profitability for both customers and partners. Let's get right to it. >>Where for the data driven, for those who understand clarity is currency. Believe progress requires precision and no neutral is not an option. We're for the data driven. The ones who can't tolerate failure, who won't put up with downtime or allow access to just anyone. We're for the data driven who act on insight instead of instinct. Bank on privacy instead of probabilities and rely on resilience instead of reaction. We see ourselves in the obsessive, the incessant, progressive, and the meticulously engineered. We enable the incredible identify with the analytical and are synonymous with the mission critical. We know what it means to be data driven because data is in our dna. We were born industrial and and we breathe digital. We speak predictive analytics so you can keep supply chains moving. We bleed in store and online insights so you can accurately predict customer preferences. We sweat security and digital privacy so you can turn complex regulations into competitive advantage. We break down barriers and eliminate silos. So you can go from data rich to data driven because it's clear the future belongs to the data driven. >>Hey everyone, welcome to this conversation. Lisa Martin here with Kim King, the SVP of Strategic Partners and Alliances at Hitachi Ventera. Kim, it's great to have you on the program. Thank you so much for joining me today. >>Thanks Lisa. It's great to be here. >>Let's talk about, so as we know, we talk about cloud all the time, the landscape, the cloud infrastructure landscape increasingly getting more and more complex. What are some of the biggest challenges and pain points that you're hearing from customers today? >>Yeah, so lot. There are lots, but I would say the, the few that we hear consistently are cost the complexity, right? Really the complexity of where do they go, how do they do it, and then availability. They have a lot of available options, but again, going back to complexity and cost, where do they think that they should move and how, how do they make that a successful move to the cloud? >>So talk to me, Hitachi Ventura has a great partner ecosystem. Where do partners play a role in helping customers to address some of the challenges with respect to the cloud landscape? >>Yeah, so part, our partners are really leading the way in the area of cloud in terms of helping customers understand the complexities of the cloud. As we talked about, they're truly the trusted advisor. So when they look at a customer's complete infrastructure, what are the workloads, what are the CRI critical applications that they work with? What's the unique architecture that they have to drive with that customer for a successful outcome and help them architect that? And so partners are truly leading the way across the board, understanding the complexities of each individual customer and then helping them make the right decisions with and for them. And then bringing us along as part of that, >>Talk to me a little bit about the partner landscape, the partner ecosystem at Hitachi Ventura. How does this fit into the overall strategy for the company? >>So we really look at our ecosystem as an extension of our sales organization and and really extension across the board, I would say our goal is to marry the right customer with the right partner and help them achieve their goals, ensure that they keep costs in check, that they ensure they don't have any security concerns, and that they have availability for the solutions and applications that they're trying to move to the cloud, which is most important. So we really, we really look at our ecosystem as a specialty ecosystem that adds high value for the right customers. >>So Kim, talk to me about how partners fit into Hitachi van's overall strategy. >>So I think our biggest differentiators with partners is that they're not just another number. Our partner organization is that valued extension of our overall sales pre-sales services organization. And we treat them like an extension of our organization. It's funny because I was just on a call with an analyst earlier this week and they said that AWS has increased their number of partners to 150,000 partners from, it was just under a hundred thousand. And I'm really not sure how you provide quality engagement to partners, right? And is how is that really a sustainable strategy? So for us, we look at trusted engagement across the ecosystem as a def differentiation. Really our goal is to make their life simple and profitable and really become their primary trusted partner when we go to market with them. And we see that paying dividends with our partners as they engage with us and as they expand and grow across the segments and then grow globally with us as well. >>And that's key, right? That synergistic approach when you're in customer conversations, what do you articulate as the key competitive differentiators where it relates to your partners? >>So really the, that they're the trusted advisor for that partner, right? That they understand our solutions better than any solution out there. And because we're not trying to be all things to our customers and our partners that we being bring best breaths of breed, best of breed solutions to our customers through our partner community, they can truly provide that end user experience and the successful outcome that's needed without, you know, sort of all kinds of, you know, crazy cha challenges, right? When you look at it, they really wanna make sure that they're driving that co-developed solution and the successful outcome for that customer. >>So then how do you feel that Hitachi Ventura helps partners really to grow and expand their own business? >>Wow, so that's, there's tons of ways, but we've, we've created a very simplified, what we call digital selling platform. And in that digital selling platform, we have allowed our partners to choose their own price and pre-approve their pricing and their promotions. They've actually, we've expanded the way we go to market with our partners from a sort of a technical capabilities. We give them online what we call Hitachi online labs that allow them to really leverage all of the solutions and demo systems out there today. And they have complete access to any one of our resources, product management. And so we really have, like I said, we actually provide our partners with better tools and resources sometimes than we do our own sales and pre-sales organization. So we, we look at them as, because they have so many other solutions out there that we have to be one step ahead of everybody else to give them that solution capability and the expertise that they need for their customers. >>So if you dig in, where is it that Hiti is helping partners succeed with your portfolio? >>Wow. So I think just across the board, I think we're really driving that profitable, trusted, and simplified engagement with our partner community because it's a value base and ease of doing business. I say that we allow them to scale and drive that sort of double digit growth through all of the solutions and and offerings that we have today. And because we've taken the approach of a very complex technical sort of infrastructure from a high end perspective and scale it all the way through to our mid-size enterprise, that allows them to really enter any customer at any vertical and provide them a really quality solution with that 100% data availability guarantee that we provide all of our customers. >>So then if we look at the overall sales cycle and the engagement, where is it that you're helping cus your partners rather succeed with the portfolio? >>Say that again? Sorry, my brain broke. No, >>No worries. So if we look at the overall sales cycle, where is it specifically where you're helping customers to succeed with the portfolio? >>So from the sales cycle, I think because we have the, a solution that is simple, easy, and really scaled for the type of customer that we have out there, it allows them to basically right size their infrastructure based on the application, the workload, the quality or the need that application may have and ensure that we provide them with that best solution. >>So then from a partner's perspective, how is it that Hitachi van is helping them to actually close deals faster? >>Yeah, so lots of great ways I think between our pre-sales organization that's on call and available a hundred percent of the time, I think that we've seen, again, the trusted engagement with them from a pricing and packaging perspective. You know, we, you know, two years ago it would take them two to three weeks to get a pre-approved quote where today they preapproved their own quotes in less than an hour and can have that in the hands of a customer. So we've seen that the ability for our partners to create and close orders in very short periods of time and actually get to the customer's needs very quickly, >>So dramatically faster. Yes. Talk about overall, so the partner relationship's quite strong, very synergistic that, that Hitachi Ventura has with its customers. Let's kind of step back out and look at the cloud infrastructure. How do you see it evolving the market evolving overall in say the next six months, 12 months? >>Yeah, so we see it significantly, we've been doing a lot of studies around this specifically. So we have a couple of different teams. We have our sort of our standard partner team that's out there and now we have a specialty cloud service provider team that really focuses on partners that are building and their own infrastructure or leveraging the infrastructure of a large hyperscaler or another GSI and selling that out. And then what we found is when we dig down deeper into our standard sort of partner reseller or value added reseller market, what we're seeing is that they are want to have the capability to resell the solution, but they don't necessarily wanna have to own and manage the infrastructure themselves. So we're helping both of them through that transition. We see that it's gonna, so it's funny cuz you're seeing a combination of many customers move to really the hyperscale or public cloud and many of them want to repatriate their infrastructure back because they see costs and they see challenges around all of that. And so our partners are helping them understand, again, what is the best solution for them as opposed to let's just throw everything in the public cloud and hope that it works. We're we're really helping them make the right choices and decisions and we're putting the right partners together to make that happen. >>And how was that feedback, that data helping you to really grow and expand the partner program as a whole? >>Yeah, so it's been fantastic. We have a whole methodology that we, we created, which is called PDM plan, develop monetize with partners. And so we went specifically to market with cloud service providers that'll, and we really tested this out with them. We didn't just take a solution and say, here, go sell it, good luck and have, you know, have a nice day. Many vendors are doing that to their partners and the partners are struggling to monetize those solutions. So we spend a lot of time upfront planning with them what is not only the storage infrastructure but your potentially your data resiliency and, and everything else that you're looking at your security solutions. How do we package those all together? How do we help you monetize them? And then who do you target from a customer perspective so that they've built up a pipeline of opportunities that they can go and work with us on and we really sit side by side with them in a co-development environment. >>In terms of that side by side relationship, how does the partner ecosystem play a role in Hitachi Venturas as a service business? >>So our primary go to market with our, as a service business is with and through partners. So our goal is to drive all, almost all of of our as a service. Unless it's super highly complex and something that a partner cannot support, we will make sure that they really, we leverage that with them with all of our partners. >>So strong partner relationships, very strong partner ecosystem. What would you say, Kim, are the priorities for the partner ecosystem going forward? The next say year? >>Yeah, so we have tons of priorities, right? I think really it's double digit growth for them and for us and understanding how a simpler approach that's customized for the specific vertical or customer base or go to market that they have that helps them quickly navigate to be successful. Our goal is always to facilitate trusted engagements with our partners, right? And then really, as I said, directionally our goal is to be 95 to a hundred percent of all of our business through partners, which helps customers and then really use that trusted advisor status they have to provide that value base to the customer. And then going back on our core tenants, which are, you know, really a trusted, simplified, profitable engagement with our partner community that allows them to really drive successful outcomes and go to market with us. And the end users >>Trust is such an important word, we can't underutilize it in these conversations. Last question. Sure. From a channel business perspective, what are some of the priorities coming down the pi? >>Oh, again, my biggest priority right, is always to increase the number of partner success stories that we have and increase the value to our partners. So we really dig in, we, we right now sit about number one or number two in, in our space with our partners in ease of doing business and value to our channel community. We wanna be number one across the board, right? Our goal is to make sure that our partner community is successful and that they really have those profitable engagements and that we're globally working with them to drive that engagement and, and help them build more profitable businesses. And so we just take tons of feedback from our partners regularly to help them understand, but we, we act on it very quickly so that we can make sure we incorporate that into our new program and our go to markets as we roll out every year. >>It sounds like a great flywheel of communications from the partners. Kim, thank you so much for joining me today talking about what Hitachi Vanta is doing with its partner ecosystem, the value in IT for customers. We appreciate your insights. >>Thank you very much. >>Up next, Russell Kingsley joins me, TTO and global VP of technical sales at Hitachi van you watch in the cube, the leader in live tech coverage. Hey everyone, welcome back to our conversation with Hitachi van Tara, Lisa Martin here with Russell Skillings Lee, the CTO and global VP of technical sales at Hitachi Van Russell. Welcome to the program. >>Hi Lisa, nice to be here. >>Yeah, great to have you. So here we are, the end of calendar year 2022. What are some of the things that you're hearing out in the field in terms of customers priorities for 2023? >>Yeah, good one. Just to, to set the scene here, we tend to deal with enterprises that have mission critical IT environments and this has been been our heritage and continues to be our major strength. So just to set the scene here, that's the type of customers predominantly I'd be hearing from. And so that's what you're gonna hear about here. Now, in terms of 20 23, 1 of the, the macro concerns that's hitting almost all of our customers right now, as you can probably appreciate is power consumption. And closely related to that is the whole area of ESG and decarbonization and all of that sort of thing. And I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on that one because that would be a whole session in itself really, but sufficient to say it is a priority for us and we, we are very active in, in that area. >>So aside from from that one that that big one, there's also a couple that are pretty much in common for most of our customers and, and we're in areas that we can help. One of those is in an exponential growth of the amount of data. It's, it's predicted that the world's data is going to triple by 2025 as opposed to where it was in 2020. And I think everyone's contributing to that, including a lot of our customers. So just the, the act of managing that amount of data is, is a challenge in itself. And I think closely related to that, a desire to use that data better to be able to gain more business insights and potentially create new business outcomes and business ideas are, is another one of those big challenges in, in that sense, I think a lot of our customers are in what I would kind of call, I affectionately call the, the post Facebook awakening era. >>And that, and what I mean by that is our traditional businesses, you know, when Facebook came along, they kind of illustrated, hey, I can actually make some use out of what is seemingly an enormous amount of useless data, which is exactly what Facebook did. They took a whole lot of people's Yeah. The minutia of people's lives and turned it into, you know, advertising revenue by gaining insights from, from those, you know, sort of seemingly useless bits of data and, you know, right. And I think this actually gave rise to a lot of digital business at that time. You know, the, this whole idea of what all you really need to be successful and disrupt the business is, you know, a great idea, you know, an app and a whole bunch of data to, to power it. And I think that a lot of our traditional customers are looking at this and wondering how do they get into the act? Because they've been collecting data for decades, an enormous amount of data, right? >>Yes. I mean, every company these days has to be a data company, but to your point, they've gotta be able to extract those insights, monetize it, and create real value new opportunities for the business at record speed. >>Yes, that's exactly right. And so being able to, to wield that data somehow turn it, it kind of turns out our customer's attentions to the type of infrastructure they've got as well. I mean, if you think about those, those companies that have been really successful in leveraging that data, a lot of them have, especially in the early days, leverage the cloud to be able to build out their capabilities. And, and the reason why the cloud became such a pivotal part of that is because it offered self-service. IT and, you know, easy development platforms to those people that had these great ideas. All they needed was access to, to, you know, the provider's website and a credit card. And now all of a sudden they could start to build a business from that. And I think a lot of our traditional IT customers are looking at this and thinking, now how do I build a similar sort of infrastructure? How do I, how do I provide that kind of self-service capability to the owners of business inside my company rather than the IT company sort of being a gatekeeper to a selected set of software packages. How now do I provide this development platform for those internal users? And I think this, this is why really hybrid cloud has become the defacto IT sort of architectural standard, even even for quite traditional, you know, IT companies. >>So when it comes to hybrid cloud, what are some of the challenges the customers are facing? And then I know Hitachi has a great partner ecosystem. How are partners helping Hitachi Ventura and its customers to eliminate or solve some of those hybrid cloud challenges? >>Yeah, it's, it, it's a great question and you know, it's, it's not 1975 anymore. It's not, it's not like you're going to get all of your IT needs from, from one, from one vendor hybrid by sort of, it's, you know, by definition is going to involve multiple pieces. And so there basically is no hybrid at all without a partner ecosystem. You really can't get everything at, at a one stop shop like you used to. But even if you think about the biggest public cloud provider on the planet, aws even, it has a marketplace for partner solutions. So, so even they see, even for customers that might consider themselves to be all in on public cloud, they are still going to need other pieces, which is where their marketplace come comes in. Now for, for us, you know, we are, we're a company that, we've been in the IT business for over 60 years, one of one of the few that could claim that sort of heritage. >>And you know, we've seen a lot of this type of change ourselves, this change of attitude from being able to provide everything yourself to being someone who contributes to an overall ecosystem. So partners are absolutely essential. And so now we kind of have a, a partner first philosophy when it comes to our routes to market on, you know, not just our own products in terms of, you know, a resale channel or whatever, but also making sure that we are working with some of the biggest players in hybrid infrastructure and determining where we can add value to that in our, in our own solutions. And so, you know, when it comes to those, those partner ecosystems, we're always looking for the spaces where we can best add our own capability to those prevailing IT architectures that are successful in the marketplace. And, you know, I think that it's probably fair to say, you know, for us, first and foremost, we, we have a reputation for having the biggest, most reliable storage infrastructure available on the planet. >>And, and we make no apologies for the fact that we tout our speeds and feeds and uptime supremacy. You know, a lot of our, a lot of our competitors would suggest that, hey, speeds and feeds don't matter. But you know, that's kind of what you say when, when you're not the fastest or not the most reliable, you know, of course they matter. And for us, what we, the way that we look at this is we say, let's look at who's providing the best possible hybrid solutions and let's partner with them to make those solutions even better. That's the way we look at it. >>Can you peel the, the onion a little bit on the technology underpinning the solutions, give a glimpse into that and then maybe add some color in terms of how partners are enhancing that? >>Yeah, let me, let me do that with a few examples here, and maybe what I can do is I can sort of share some insight about the way we think with partnering with, with particular people and why it's a good blend or why we see that technologically it's a good blend. So for example, the work we do with VMware, which we consider to be one of our most important hybrid cloud partners and in, and in fact it's, it's my belief, they have one of the strongest hybrid cloud stories in the industry. It resonates really strongly with, with our customers as well. But you know, we think it's made so much better with the robust underpinnings that we provide. We're one of the, one of the few storage vendors that provides a 100% data availability guarantee. So we, we take that sort of level of reliability and we add other aspects like life cycle management of the underpinning infrastructure. >>We combine that with what VMware's doing, and then when you look at our converged or hyper-converged solutions with them, it's a better together story where you now have what is one of the best hybrid cloud stories in the industry with VMware. But now for the on premise part, especially, you've now added a hundred percent data, data availability guarantee, and you've made managing the underlying infrastructure so much easier through the tools that we provide that go down to that level A level underneath where VMware are. And so that's, that's VMware. I've got a couple, couple more examples just to sort of fill, fill that out a bit. Sure. Cisco is another part, very strong partner of ours, a key partner. And I mean, you look at Cisco, they're a 50 billion IT provider and they don't have a dedicated storage infrastructure of their own. So they're going to partner with someone. >>From our perspective, we look at Cisco's, Cisco's customers and we look at them and think they're very similar to our own in terms of they're known to appreciate performance and reliability and a bit of premium in quality, and we think we match them them quite well. They're already buying what we believe are the best converge platforms in the industry from Cisco. So it makes sense that those customers would want to compliment that investment with the best array, best storage array they can get. And so we think we are helping Cisco's customers make the most of their decision to be ucs customers. Final one for, for you, Lisa, by way of example, we have a relationship with, with Equinix and you know, Equinix is the world's sort of leading colo provider. And the way I think they like to think of themselves, and I too tend to agree with them, is their, they're one of the most compelling high-speed interconnect networks in the world. >>They're connected to all of the, the, the significant cloud providers in most of the locations around the world. We have a, a relationship with them where we find we have customers in common who really love the idea of compute from the cloud. Compute from the cloud is great because compute is something that you are doing for a set period of time and then it's over you. Like you have a task, you do some compute, it's done. Cloud is beautiful for that. Storage on the other hand is very long lived storage doesn't tend to operate in that same sort of way. It sort of just becomes a bigger and bigger blob over time. And so the cost model around public cloud and storage is not as compelling as it is for compute. And so our, with our relationship with Equinix, we help our customers to be able to create, let's call it a, a data anchor point where they put our arrays into, into an Equinix location, and then they utilize Equinix as high speeding interconnects to the, to the cloud providers, okay. To take the compute from them. So they take the compute from the cloud providers and they own their own storage, and in this way they feel like we've now got the best of all worlds. Right. What I hope that illustrates Lisa is with those three examples is we are always looking for ways to find our key advantages with any given, you know, alliance partners advantages, >>Right? What are, when you're in customer conversations, and our final few minutes here, I wanna get, what are some of the key differentiators that you talk about when you're in customer conversations, and then how does the partner ecosystem fit into Hitachi vans as a service business? We'll start with differentiators and then let's move into the as service business so we can round out with that. >>Okay. Let's start with the differentiators. Yeah. Firstly and I, and hopefully I've kind of, I've hit this point hard, hard enough. We do believe that we have the fastest and most reliable storage infrastructure on the planet. This is kind of what we are known for, and customers that are working with us already sort of have an appreciation for that. And so they're looking for, okay, you've got that now, how can you make my hybrid cloud aspirations better? So we do have that as a fundamental, right? So, but secondly I'd say, I think it's also because we go beyond just storage management and, and into the areas of data management. You know, we've got, we've got solutions that are not just about storing the bits. We do think that we do that very well, but we also have solutions that move into the areas of enrichment, of the data, cataloging of the data, classification of the data, and most importantly, analytics. >>So, you know, we, we think it's, some of our competitors just stop at storing stuff and some of our competitors are in the analytics space, but we feel that we can bridge that. And we think that that's a, that's a competitive advantage for us. One of the other areas that I think is key for us as well is, as I said, we're one of the few vendors who've been in the marketplace for 60 years and we think this, this, this gives us a more nuanced perspective about things. There are many things in the industry, trends that have happened over time where we feel we've seen this kind of thing before and I think we will see it again. But you only really get that perspective if you are, if you are long lived in the industry. And so we believe that our conversations with our customers bear a little bit more sophistication. It's not just, it's not just about what's the latest and greatest trends. >>Right. We've got about one minute left. Can you, can you round us out with how the partner ecosystem is playing a role in the as service business? >>They're absolutely pivotal in that, you know, we, we ourselves don't own data centers, right? So we don't provide our own cloud services out. So we are 100% partner focused when it comes to that aspect. Our formula is to help partners build their cloud services with our solutions and then onsell them to their customers as as as a service. You know, and by what quick way of example, VMware for example, they've got nearly 5,000 partners selling VMware cloud services. 5,000 blows me away. And many of them are our partners too. So we kind of see this as a virtuous cycle. We've got product, we've got an an alliance with VMware and we work together with partners in common for the delivery of an as a service business. >>Got it. So the, as you said, the partner ecosystem is absolutely pivotal. Russell, it's been a pleasure having you on the program talking about all things hybrid cloud challenges, how Hitachi van is working with its partner ecosystems to really help customers across industries solve those big problems. We really appreciate your insights and your time. >>Thank you very much, Lisa. It's been great. >>Yeah, yeah. For Russell Stingley, I'm Lisa Martin. In a moment we're gonna continue our conversation with Tom Christensen. Stay tuned. >>Sulfur Royal has always embraced digital technology. We were amongst the first hospitals in the UK to install a full electronic patient record system. Unfortunately, as a result of being a pioneer, we often find that there's gaps in the digital solutions. My involvement has been from the very start of this program, a group of us got together to discuss what the problems actually were in the hospital and how we could solve this. >>The digital control center is an innovation that's been designed in partnership between ourselves, anti touch, and it's designed to bring all of the information that is really critical for delivering effective and high quality patient care. Together the DCC is designed not only to improve the lives of patients, but also of our staff giving us information that our demand is going to increase in the number of patients needing support. The technology that we're building can be replicated across sulfur, the NCA, and the wider nhs, including social care and community services. Because it brings all of that information that is essential for delivering high quality efficient care. >>The DCC will save time for both staff and more importantly our patients. It will leave clinicians to care for patients rather than administrate systems and it will allow the system that I work with within the patient flow team to effectively and safely place patients in clinically appropriate environments. >>But we chose to partner with Hitachi to deliver the DCC here at Sulfur. They were willing to work with us to co-produce and design a product that really would work within the environment that we find ourselves in a hospital, in a community setting, in a social care setting. >>My hopes for the DCC is that ultimately we will provide more efficient and reliable care for our patients. >>I do believe the digital control center will improve the lives of staff and also the patients so that we can then start to deliver the real change that's needed for patient care. >>Okay, we're back with Tom Christensen, who's the global technology advisor and executive analyst at Hitachi Van Tara. And we're exploring how Hitachi Van Tower drives customer success specifically with partners. You know Tom, it's funny, back in the early part of the last decade, there was this big push around, remember it was called green it and then the oh 7 0 8 financial crisis sort of put that on the back burner. But sustainability is back and it seems to be emerging as a mega trend in in it is, are you seeing this, is it same wine new label? How real is this trend and where's the pressure coming from? >>Well, we clearly see that sustainability is a mega trend in the IT sector. And when we talk to CIOs or senior IT leaders or simply just invite them in for a round table on this topic, they all tell us that they get the pressure from three different angles. The first one is really end consumers and end consumers. Nowaday are beginning to ask questions about the green profile and what are the company doing for the environment. And this one here is both private and public companies as well. The second pressure that we see is coming from the government. The government thinks that companies are not moving fast enough so they want to put laws in that are forcing companies to move faster. And we see that in Germany as an example, where they are giving a law into enterprise companies to following human rights and sustainability tree levels back in the supply chain. >>But we also see that in EU they are talking about a new law that they want to put into action and that one will replicate to 27 countries in Europe. But this one is not only Europe, it's the rest of the world where governments are talking about forcing companies to move faster than we have done in the past. So we see two types of pressure coming in and at the same time, this one here starts off at the CEO at a company because they want to have the competitive edge and be able to be relevant in the market. And for that reason they're beginning to put KPIs on themself as the ceo, but they're also hiring sustainability officers with sustainability KPIs. And when that happens it replicates down in the organization and we can now see that some CIOs, they have a kpi, others are indirectly measured. >>So we see direct and indirect. The same with CFOs and other C levels. They all get measured on it. And for that reason it replicates down to IT people. And that's what they tell us on these round table. I get that pressure every day, every week, every quarter. But where is the pressure coming from? Well the pressure is coming from in consumers and new laws that are put into action that force companies to think differently and have focus on their green profile and doing something good for the environment. So those are the tree pressures that we see. But when we talk to CFOs as an example, we are beginning to see that they have a new store system where they put out request for proposal and this one is in about 58% of all request for proposal that we receive that they are asking for our sustainability take, what are you doing as a vendor? >>And in their score system cost has the highest priority and number two is sustainability. It waits about 15, 20 to 25% when they look at your proposal that you submit to a cfo. But in some cases the CFO say, I don't even know where the pressure is coming from. I'm asked to do it. Or they're asked to do it because end consumers laws and so on are forcing them to do it. But I would answer, yeah, sustainability has become a make trend this year and it's even growing faster and faster every month we move forward. >>Yeah, Tom, it feels like it's here to stay this time. And your point about public policy is right on, we saw the EU leading with privacy and GDPR and it looks like it's gonna lead again here. You know, just shifting gears, I've been to a number of Hitachi facilities in my day. OWA is my favorite because on a clear day you can see Mount Fuji, but other plants I've been to as well. What does Hitachi do in the production facility to reduce CO2 emissions? >>Yeah, I think you're hitting a good point here. So what we have, we have a, a facility in Japan and we have one in Europe and we have one in America as well to keep our production close to our customers and reduced transportation for the factory out to our customers. But you know, in the, in the, in the May region back in 2020 13, we created a new factory. And when we did that we were asked to do it in an energy, energy neutral way, which means that we are moving from being powered by black energy to green energy in that factory. And we build a factory with concrete walls that were extremely thick to make it cold in the summertime and hot in the winter time with minimum energy consumption. But we also put 17,000 square meters of solar panel on the roof to power that factory. >>We were collecting rain waters to flush it in the toilet. We were removing light bulbs with L E D and when we sent out our equipment to our customers, we put it in a, instead of sending out 25 packages to a customer, we want to reduce the waste as much as possible. And you know, this one was pretty new back in 2013. It was actually the biggest project in EA at that time. I will say if you want to build a factory today, that's the way you are going to do it. But it has a huge impact for us when electricity is going up and price and oil and gas prices are coming up. We are running with energy neutral in our facility, which is a big benefit for us going forward. But it is also a competitive advantage to be able to explain what we have been doing the last eight, nine years in that factory. We are actually walking to talk and we make that decision even though it was a really hard decision to do back in 2013, when you do decisions like this one here, the return of investment is not coming the first couple of years. It's something that comes far out in the future. But right now we are beginning to see the benefit of the decision we made back in 2013. >>I wanna come back to the economics, but before I do, I wanna pick up on something you just said because you know, you hear the slogan sustainability by design. A lot of people might think okay, that's just a marketing slogan, slogan to vector in into this mega trend, but it sounds like it's something that you've been working on for quite some time. Based on your last comments, can you add some color to that? >>Yeah, so you know, the factory is just one example of what you need to do to reduce the CO2 emission and that part of the life of a a product. The other one is really innovating new technology to drive down the CO2 emission. And here we are laser focused on what we call decarbonization by design. And this one is something that we have done the last eight years, so this is far from you for us. So between each generation of products that we have put out over the last eight years, we've been able to reduce the CO2 emission by up to 30 to 60% between each generation of products that we have put into the market. So we are laser focused on driving that one down, but we are far from done, we still got eight years before we hit our first target net zero in 2030. So we got a roadmap where we want to achieve even more with new technology. At its core, it is a technology innovator and our answers to reduce the CO2 emission and the decarbonization of a data center is going to be through innovating new technology because it has the speed, the scale, and the impact to make it possible to reach your sustainability objectives going forward. >>How about recycling? You know, where does that fit? I mean, the other day it was, you know, a lot of times at a hotel, you know, you used to get bottled water, now you get, you know, plant based, you know, waters in a box and, and so we are seeing it all around us. But for a manufacturer of your size, recycling and circular economy, how does that fit into your plans? >>Yeah, let me try to explain what we are doing here. Cause one thing is how you produce it. Another thing is how you innovate all that new technology, but you also need to combine that with service and software, otherwise you won't get the full benefit. So what we are doing here, when it comes to exploring circular economics, it's kind of where we have an eternity mindset. We want to see if it is possible to get nothing out to the landfill. This is the aim that we are looking at. So when you buy a product today, you get an option to keep it in your data center for up to 10 years. But what we wanna do when you keep it for 10 years is to upgrade only parts of the system. So let's say that you need more CBU power, use your switch the controller to next generation controller and you get more CPU power in your storage system to keep it those 10 years. >>But you can also expand with new this media flash media, even media that doesn't exist today will be supported over those 10 years. You can change your protocol in the, in the front end of your system to have new protocols and connect to your server environment with the latest and greatest technology. See, the benefit here is that you don't have to put your system into a truck and a recycle process after three years, four years, five years, you can actually postpone that one for 10 years. And this one is reducing the emission again. But once we take it back, you put it on the truck and we take it into our recycling facility. And here we take our own equipment like compute network and switches, but we also take competitor equipment in and we recycle as much as we can. In many cases, it's only 1% that goes to the landfill or 2% that goes to the landfill. >>The remaining material will go into new products either in our cycle or in other parts of the electronic industry. So it will be reused for other products. So when we look at what we've been doing for many years, that has been linear economics where you buy material, you make your product, you put it into production, and it goes into land feed afterwards. The recycling economics, it's really, you buy material, you make your product, you put it into production, and you recycle as much as possible. The remaining part will go into the landfill. But where we are right now is exploring circle economics where you actually buy material, make it, put it into production, and you reuse as much as you can. And only one 2% is going into the landfill right now. So we have come along and we honestly believe that the circular economics is the new economics going forward for many industries in the world. >>Yeah. And that addresses some of the things that we were talking about earlier about sustainability by design, you have to design that so that you can take advantage of that circular economy. I, I do wanna come back to the economics because, you know, in the early days of so-called green, it, there was a lot of talk about, well, I, I, I'll never be able to lower the power bill. And the facilities people don't talk to the IT people. And that's changed. So explain why sustainability is good business, not just an expense item, but can really drive bottom line profitability. I, I understand it's gonna take some time, but, but help us understand your experience there, Tom. >>Yeah, let me try to explain that one. You know, you often get the question about sustainability. Isn't that a cost? I mean, how much does it cost to get that green profile? But you know, in reality when you do a deep dive into the data center, you realize that sustainability is a cost saving activity. And this one is quite interesting. And we have now done more than 1,200 data center assessment around the world where we have looked at data centers. And let me give you just an average number from a global bank that we work with. And this one is, it is not different from all the other cases that we are doing. So when we look at the storage area, what we can do on the electricity by moving an old legacy data center into a new modernized infrastructure is to reduce the electricity by 96%. >>This is a very high number and a lot of money that you save, but the CO2 mission is reduced by 96% as well. The floor space can go up to 35% reduction as well. When we move down to the compute part, we are talking about 61% reduction in electricity on the compute part just by moving from legacy to new modern infrastructure and 61% on the CO2 emission as well. And see this one here is quite interesting because you save electricity and you and you do something really good for the environment. At the same time, in this case I'm talking about here, the customer was paying 2.5 million US dollar annually and by just modernizing that infrastructure, we could bring it down to 1.1 million. This is 1.4 million savings straight into your pocket and you can start the next activity here looking at moving from virtual machine to containers. Containers only use 10% of the CPU resources compared to a virtual machine. Move up to the application layer. If you have that kind of capability in your organization, modernizing your application with sustainability by design and you can reduce the C, the CO2 emission by up to 50%. There's so much we can do in that data center, but we often start at the infrastructure first and then we move up in the chain and we give customers benefit in all these different layers. >>Yeah, A big theme of this program today is what you guys are doing with partners do, are partners aware of this in your view? Are they in tune with it? Are they demanding it? What message would you like to give the channel partners, resellers and, and distributors who may be watching? >>So the way to look at it is that we offer a platform with product, service and software and that platform can elevate the conversation much higher up in the organization. And partners get the opportunity here to go up and talk to sustainability officers about what we are doing. They can even take it up to the CEO and talk about how can you reach your sustainability KPI in the data center. What we've seen this round table when we have sustainability officers in the room is that they're very focused on the green profile and what is going out of the company. They rarely have a deep understanding of what is going on at the data center. Why? Because it's really technical and they don't have that background. So just by elevating the conversation to these sustainability officers, you can tell them what they should measure and how they should measure that. And you can be sure that that will replicate down to the CIO and the CFO and that immediately your request for proposal going forward. So this one here is really a golden opportunity to take that story, go out and talk to different people in the organization to be relevant and have an impact and make it more easy for you to win that proposal when it gets out. >>Well really solid story on a super important topic. Thanks Tom. Really appreciate your time and taking us through your perspectives. >>Thank you Dave, for the invitation. >>Yeah, you bet. Okay, in a moment we'll be back. To summarize our final thoughts, keep it right there. >>Click by click. The world is changing. We make sense of our world by making sense of data. You can draw more meaning from more data than was ever possible before, so that every thought and every action can build your path to intelligent innovation to change the way the world works. Hitachi Van Tara. >>Okay, thanks for watching the program. We hope you gained a better understanding of how Hitachi Ventura drives customer success with its partners. If you wanna learn more about how you can partner for profit, check out the partner togetherPage@hitachiventera.com and there's a link on the webpage here that will take you right to that page. Okay, that's a wrap for Lisa Martin. This is Dave Valante with the Cube. You a leader in enterprise and emerging tech coverage.

>> We're back at the ARIA Las Vegas. We're covering CrowdStrike's Fal.Con 22. First one since 2019. Dave Vellante and Dave Nicholson on theCUBE. Adam Meyers is here, he is the Senior Vice President of Intelligence at CrowdStrike. Adam, thanks for coming to theCUBE. >> Thanks for having me. >> Interesting times, isn't it? You're very welcome. Senior Vice President of Intelligence, tell us what your role is. >> So I run all of our intelligence offerings. All of our analysts, we have a couple hundred analysts that work at CrowdStrike tracking threat actors. There's 185 threat actors that we track today. We're constantly adding more of them and it requires us to really have that visibility and understand how they operate so that we can inform our other products: our XDR, our Cloud Workload Protections and really integrate all of this around the threat actor. >> So it's that threat hunting capability that CrowdStrike has. That's what you're sort of... >> Well, so think of it this way. When we launched the company 11 years ago yesterday, what we wanted to do was to tell customers, to tell people that, well, you don't have a malware problem, you have an adversary problem. There are humans that are out there conducting these attacks, and if you know who they are what they're up to, how they operate then you're better positioned to defend against them. And so that's really at the core, what CrowdStrike started with and all of our products are powered by intelligence. All of our services are our OverWatch and our Falcon complete, all powered by intelligence because we want to know who the threat actors are and what they're doing so we can stop them. >> So for instance like you can stop known malware. A lot of companies can stop known malware, but you also can stop unknown malware. And I infer that the intelligence is part of that equation, is that right? >> Absolutely. That that's the outcome. That's the output of the intelligence but I could also tell you who these threat actors are, where they're operating out of, show you pictures of some of them, that's the threat intel. We are tracking down to the individual persona in many cases, these various threats whether they be Chinese nation state, Russian threat actors, Iran, North Korea, we track as I said, quite a few of these threats. And over time, we develop a really robust deep knowledge about who they are and how they operate. >> Okay. And we're going to get into some of that, the big four and cyber. But before we do, I want to ask you about the eCrime index stats, the ECX you guys call it a little side joke for all your nerds out there. Maybe you could explain that Adam >> Assembly humor. >> Yeah right, right. So, but, what is that index? You guys, how often do you publish it? What are you learning from that? >> Yeah, so it was modeled off of the Dow Jones industrial average. So if you look at the Dow Jones it's a composite index that was started in the late 1800s. And they took a couple of different companies that were the industrial component of the economy back then, right. Textiles and railroads and coal and steel and things like that. And they use that to approximate the overall health of the economy. So if you take these different stocks together, swizzle 'em together, and figure out some sort of number you could say, look, it's up. The economy's doing good. It's down, not doing so good. So after World War II, everybody was exuberant and positive about the end of the war. The DGI goes up, the oil crisis in the seventies goes down, COVID hits goes up, sorry, goes down. And then everybody realizes that they can use Amazon still and they can still get the things they need goes back up with the eCrime index. We took that approach to say what is the health of the underground economy? When you read about any of these ransomware attacks or data extortion attacks there are criminal groups that are working together in order to get things spammed out or to buy credentials and things like that. And so what the eCrime index does is it takes 24 different observables, right? The price of a ransom, the number of ransom attacks, the fluctuation in cryptocurrency, how much stolen material is being sold for on the underground. And we're constantly computing this number to understand is the eCrime ecosystem healthy? Is it thriving or is it under pressure? And that lets us understand what's going on in the world and kind of contextualize it. Give an example, Microsoft on patch Tuesday releases 56 vulnerabilities. 11 of them are critical. Well guess what? After hack Tuesday. So after patch Tuesday is hack Wednesday. And so all of those 11 vulnerabilities are exploitable. And now you have threat actors that have a whole new array of weapons that they can deploy and bring to bear against their victims after that patch Tuesday. So that's hack Wednesday. Conversely we'll get something like the colonial pipeline. Colonial pipeline attack May of 21, I think it was, comes out and all of the various underground forums where these ransomware operators are doing their business. They freak out because they don't want law enforcement. President Biden is talking about them and he's putting pressure on them. They don't want this ransomware component of what they're doing to bring law enforcement, bring heat on them. So they deplatform them. They kick 'em off. And when they do that, the ransomware stops being as much of a factor at that point in time. And the eCrime index goes down. So we can look at holidays, and right around Thanksgiving, which is coming up pretty soon, it's going to go up because there's so much online commerce with cyber Monday and such, right? You're going to see this increase in online activity; eCrime actors want to take advantage of that. When Christmas comes, they take vacation too; they're going to spend time with their families, so it goes back down and it stays down till around the end of the Russian Orthodox Christmas, which you can probably extrapolate why that is. And then it goes back up. So as it's fluctuating, it gives us the ability to really just start tracking what that economy looks like. >> Realtime indicator of that crypto. >> I mean, you talked about, talked about hack Wednesday, and before that you mentioned, you know, the big four, and I think you said 185 threat actors that you're tracking, is 180, is number 185 on that list? Somebody living in their basement in their mom's basement or are the resources necessary to get on that list? Such that it's like, no, no, no, no. this is very, very organized, large groups of people. Hollywood would have you believe that it's guy with a laptop, hack Wednesday, (Dave Nicholson mimics keyboard clacking noises) and everything done. >> Right. >> Are there individuals who are doing things like that or are these typically very well organized? >> That's a great question. And I think it's an important one to ask and it's both it tends to be more, the bigger groups. There are some one-off ones where it's one or two people. Sometimes they get big. Sometimes they get small. One of the big challenges. Have you heard of ransomware as a service? >> Of course. Oh my God. Any knucklehead can be a ransomwarist. >> Exactly. So we don't track those knuckleheads as much unless they get onto our radar somehow, they're conducting a lot of operations against our customers or something like that. But what we do track is that ransomware as a service platform because the affiliates, the people that are using it they come, they go and, you know, it could be they're only there for a period of time. Sometimes they move between different ransomware services, right? They'll use the one that's most useful for them that that week or that month, they're getting the best rate because it's rev sharing. They get a percentage that platform gets percentage of the ransom. So, you know, they negotiate a better deal. They might move to a different ransomware platform. So that's really hard to track. And it's also, you know, I think more important for us to understand the platform and the technology that is being used than the individual that's doing it. >> Yeah. Makes sense. Alright, let's talk about the big four. China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia. Tell us about, you know, how you monitor these folks. Are there different signatures for each? Can you actually tell, you know based on the hack who's behind it? >> So yeah, it starts off, you know motivation is a huge factor. China conducts espionage, they do it for diplomatic purposes. They do it for military and political purposes. And they do it for economic espionage. All of these things map to known policies that they put out, the Five Year Plan, the Made in China 2025, the Belt and Road Initiative, it's all part of their efforts to become a regional and ultimately a global hegemon. >> They're not stealing nickels and dimes. >> No they're stealing intellectual property. They're stealing trade secrets. They're stealing negotiation points. When there's, you know a high speed rail or something like that. And they use a set of tools and they have a set of behaviors and they have a set of infrastructure and a set of targets that as we look at all of these things together we can derive who they are by motivation and the longer we observe them, the more data we get, the more we can get that attribution. I could tell you that there's X number of Chinese threat groups that we track under Panda, right? And they're associated with the Ministry of State Security. There's a whole other set. That's too associated with the People's Liberation Army Strategic Support Force. So, I mean, these are big operations. They're intelligence agencies that are operating out of China. Iran has a different set of targets. They have a different set of motives. They go after North American and Israeli businesses right now that's kind of their main operation. And they're doing something called hack and lock and leak. With a lock and leak, what they're doing is they're deploying ransomware. They don't care about getting a ransom payment. They're just doing it to disrupt the target. And then they're leaking information that they steal during that operation that brings embarrassment. It brings compliance, regulatory, legal impact for that particular entity. So it's disruptive >> The chaos creators that's.. >> Well, you know I think they're trying to create a they're trying to really impact the legitimacy of some of these targets and the trust that their customers and their partners and people have in them. And that is psychological warfare in a certain way. And it, you know is really part of their broader initiative. Look at some of the other things that they've done they've hacked into like the missile defense system in Israel, and they've turned on the sirens, right? Those are all things that they're doing for a specific purpose, and that's not China, right? Like as you start to look at this stuff, you can start to really understand what they're up to. Russia very much been busy targeting NATO and NATO countries and Ukraine. Obviously the conflict that started in February has been a huge focus for these threat actors. And then as we look at North Korea, totally different. They're doing, there was a major crypto attack today. They're going after these crypto platforms, they're going after DeFi platforms. They're going after all of this stuff that most people don't even understand and they're stealing the crypto currency and they're using it for revenue generation. These nuclear weapons don't pay for themselves, their research and development don't pay for themselves. And so they're using that cyber operation to either steal money or steal intelligence. >> They need the cash. Yeah. >> Yeah. And they also do economic targeting because Kim Jong Un had said back in 2016 that they need to improve the lives of North Koreans. They have this national economic development strategy. And that means that they need, you know, I think only 30% of North Korea has access to reliable power. So having access to clean energy sources and renewable energy sources, that's important to keep the people happy and stop them from rising up against the regime. So that's the type of economic espionage that they're conducting. >> Well, those are the big four. If there were big five or six, I would presume US and some Western European countries would be on there. Do you track, I mean, where United States obviously has you know, people that are capable of this we're out doing our thing, and- >> So I think- >> That defense or offense, where do we sit in this matrix? >> Well, I think the big five would probably include eCrime. We also track India, Pakistan. We track actors out of Columbia, out of Turkey, out of Syria. So there's a whole, you know this problem is getting worse over time. It's proliferating. And I think COVID was also, you know a driver there because so many of these countries couldn't move human assets around because everything was getting locked down. As machine learning and artificial intelligence and all of this makes its way into the cameras at border and transfer points, it's hard to get a human asset through there. And so cyber is a very attractive, cheap and deniable form of espionage and gives them operational capabilities, not, you know and to your question about US and other kind of five I friendly type countries we have not seen them targeting our customers. So we focus on the threats that target our customers. >> Right. >> And so, you know, if we were to find them at a customer environment sure. But you know, when you look at some of the public reporting that's out there, the malware that's associated with them is focused on, you know, real bad people, and it's, it's physically like crypted to their hard drive. So unless you have sensor on, you know, an Iranian or some other laptop that might be target or something like that. >> Well, like Stuxnet did. >> Yeah. >> Right so. >> You won't see it. Right. See, so yeah. >> Well Symantec saw it but way back when right? Back in the day. >> Well, I mean, if you want to go down that route I think it actually came from a company in the region that was doing the IR and they were working with Symantec. >> Oh, okay. So, okay. So it was a local >> Yeah. I think Crisis, I think was the company that first identified it. And then they worked with Symantec. >> It Was, they found it, I guess, a logic controller. I forget what it was. >> It was a long time ago, so I might not have that completely right. >> But it was a seminal moment in the industry. >> Oh. And it was a seminal moment for Iran because you know, that I think caused them to get into cyber operations. Right. When they realized that something like that could happen that bolstered, you know there was a lot of underground hacking forums in Iran. And, you know, after Stuxnet, we started seeing that those hackers were dropping their hacker names and they were starting businesses. They were starting to try to go after government contracts. And they were starting to build training offensive programs, things like that because, you know they realized that this is an opportunity there. >> Yeah. We were talking earlier about this with Shawn and, you know, in the nuclear war, you know the Cold War days, you had the mutually assured destruction. It's not as black and white in the cyber world. Right. Cause as, as Robert Gates told me, you know a few years ago, we have a lot more to lose. So we have to be somewhat, as the United States, careful as to how much of an offensive posture we take. >> Well here's a secret. So I have a background on political science. So mutually assured destruction, I think is a deterrent strategy where you have two kind of two, two entities that like they will destroy each other if they so they're disinclined to go down that route. >> Right. >> With cyber I really don't like that mutually assured destruction >> That doesn't fit right. >> I think it's deterrents by denial. Right? So raising the cost, if they were to conduct a cyber operation, raising that cost that they don't want to do it, they don't want to incur the impact of that. Right. And think about this in terms of a lot of people are asking about would China invade Taiwan. And so as you look at the cost that that would have on the Chinese military, the POA, the POA Navy et cetera, you know, that's that deterrents by denial, trying to, trying to make the costs so high that they don't want to do it. And I think that's a better fit for cyber to try to figure out how can we raise the cost to the adversary if they operate against our customers against our enterprises and that they'll go someplace else and do something else. >> Well, that's a retaliatory strike, isn't it? I mean, is that what you're saying? >> No, definitely not. >> It's more of reducing their return on investment essentially. >> Yeah. >> And incenting them- disincening them to do X and sending them off somewhere else. >> Right. And threat actors, whether they be criminals or nation states, you know, Bruce Lee had this great quote that was "be like water", right? Like take the path of least resistance, like water will. Threat actors do that too. So, I mean, unless you're super high value target that they absolutely have to get into by any means necessary, then if you become too hard of a target, they're going to move on to somebody that's a little easier. >> Makes sense. Awesome. Really appreciate your, I could, we'd love to have you back. >> Anytime. >> Go deeper. Adam Myers. We're here at Fal.Con 22, Dave Vellante, Dave Nicholson. We'll be right back right after this short break. (bouncy music plays)

(upbeat music) >> Hey everyone! Welcome to the AWS Partner Showcase. This is season one, episode three with a focus on women in tech. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. I've got two guests here with me, Sue Persichetti, the EVP of Global AWS Strategic Alliances at Jefferson Frank. A Tenth Revolution Group company. And Danielle Greshock, one of our own CUBE alumni, joins us, ISV PSA director. Ladies, it's great to have you on the program talking about a topic that is near and dear to my heart, women in tech. >> Thank you, Lisa! >> Great to be here! >> So let's go ahead and start with you. Give the audience an understanding of Jefferson Frank, what does the company do, and about the partnership with AWS. >> Sure, so let's just start, Jefferson Frank is a Tenth Revolution Group company. And if you look at it, it's really talent as a service. So Jefferson Frank provides talent solutions all over the world for AWS clients, partners, and users, et cetera. And we have a sister company called Revolent, which is a talent creation company within the AWS ecosystem. So we create talent and put it out in the ecosystem. Usually underrepresented groups, over half of them are women. And then we also have a company called Rebura, which is a delivery model around AWS technology. So all three companies fall under the Tenth Revolution Group organization. >> Got it, Danielle, talk to me a little bit about from AWS' perspective and the focus on hiring more women in technology and about the partnership. >> Yes, this has definitely been a focus ever since I joined eight years ago, but also just especially in the last few years of we've grown exponentially and our customer base has changed. We want to have an organization interacting with them that reflects our customers, right? And we know that we need to keep pace with that even with our growth. And so we've very much focused on early career talent, bringing more women and underrepresented minorities into the organization, sponsoring those folks, promoting them, giving them paths to grow inside of the organization. I'm an example of that, of course, I've benefited from it. But also, I try to bring that into my organization as well and it's super important. >> Tell me a little bit about how you benefited from that, Danielle. >> I just think that I've been able to get, a seat at the table. I think that. I feel as though I have folks supporting me very deeply and want to see me succeed. And also they put me forth as a representative to bring more women into the organization as well. They give me a platform in order to do that, like this, but also many other spots as well. And I'm happy to do it because I feel that... you always want to feel that you're making a difference in your job. And that is definitely a place where I get that time and space in order to be that representative. To bring more women into benefiting from having careers in technology, which there's a lot of value there. >> Lot of value. Absolutely. So back over to you, what are some of the trends that you are seeing from a gendered diversity perspective in tech? We know the numbers of women in technical positions. >> Right. There's so much data out there that shows when girls start dropping out, but what are some of the trends that you're seeing? >> So that's a really interesting question. And Lisa, I had a whole bunch of data points that I wanted to share with you but just two weeks ago, I was in San Francisco with AWS at The Summit. And we were talking about this, we were talking about how we can collectively together attract more women, not only to AWS, not only to technology, but to the AWS ecosystem in particular. And it was fascinating because I was talking about the challenges that women have, and how hard to believe but about 5% of women who were in the ecosystem have left in the past few years. Which was really, really something that shocked everyone when we were talking about it, because all of the things that we've been asking for, for instance working from home, better pay, more flexibility, better maternity leave. Seems like those things are happening. So we're getting what we want, but people are leaving. And it seemed like the feedback that we got was that a lot of women still felt very underrepresented. The number one thing was that they couldn't be... you can't be what you can't see. So because they... we feel, collectively women, people who identify as women, just don't see enough women in leadership, they don't see enough mentors. I think I've had great mentors, but just not enough. I'm lucky enough to have the president of our company, Zoe Morris is a woman and she does lead by example. So I'm very lucky for that. And Jefferson Frank really quickly we put out a hiring, a salary, and hiring guide. Career and hiring guide every year. And the data points, and that's about 65 pages long, no one else does it. It gives an abundance of information around everything about the AWS ecosystem that a hiring manager might need to know. What I thought was really unbelievable was that only 7% of the people that responded to it were women. So my goal, being that we have such a very big global platform, is to get more women to respond to that survey. So we can get as much information and take action. So... >> Absolutely only 7%. So a long way to go there. Danielle, talk to me about AWS' focus on women in tech. I was watching, Sue, I saw that you shared on LinkedIn the TED Talk that the CEO and founder of Girls Who Code did. And one of the things that she said was that there was a survey that HP did some years back that showed that 60%... that men will apply for jobs if they only meet 60% of the list of requirements. Whereas with females, it's far, far less. We've all been in that imposter syndrome conundrum before. But Danielle, talk to us about AWS' specific focus here to get these numbers up. >> Well, I think it speaks to what Susan was talking about how I think we're approaching it top and bottom, right? We're looking out at who are the women who are currently in technical positions and how can we make AWS an attractive place for them to work? And that's a lot of the changes that we've had around maternity leave and those types of things. But then also, a more flexible working arrangements. But then also early... how can we actually impact early career women and actually women who are still in school. And our training and certification team is doing amazing things to get more girls exposed to AWS, to technology, and make it a less intimidating place. And have them look at employees from AWS and say like, "Oh, I can see myself in those people". And kind of actually growing the viable pool of candidates. I think we're limited with the viable pool of candidates when you're talking about mid-to-late career. But how can we help retrain women who are coming back into the workplace after having a child, and how can we help with military women who want to... or underrepresented minorities who want to move into AWS? We have a great military program but then also just that early high school career getting them in that trajectory. >> Sue, is that something that Jefferson Frank is also able to help with is getting those younger girls before they start to feel... >> Right. "There's something wrong with me, I don't get this." >> Right. >> Talk to us about how Jefferson Frank can help really drive up that in those younger girls. >> Let me tell you one other thing to refer back to that Summit that we did we had breakout sessions and that was one of the topics. Cause that's the goal, right? To make sure that there are ways to attract them. That's the goal. So some of the things that we talked about was mentoring programs from a very young age, some people said high school. But then we said, even earlier, goes back to you can't be what you can't see. So getting mentoring programs established. We also talked about some of the great ideas was being careful of how we speak to women using the right language to attract them. And so there was a teachable moment for me there actually. It was really wonderful because an African American woman said to me, "Sue". And I was talking about how you can't be what you can't see. And what she said was, "Sue, it's really different for me as an African American woman" Or she identified as non-binary but she was relating to African American women. She said, "You're a white woman. Your journey was very different than my journey". And I thought, "This is how we're going to learn". I wasn't offended by her calling me out at all. It was a teachable moment. And I thought I understood that but those are the things that we need to educate people on. Those moments where we think we're saying and doing the right thing, but we really need to get that bias out there. So here at Jefferson Frank we're trying really hard to get that careers and hiring guide out there. It's on our website to get more women to talk to it, but to make suggestions in partnership with AWS around how we can do this. Mentoring. We have a mentor me program. We go around the country and do things like this. We try to get the education out there in partnership with AWS. We have a women's group, a women's leadership group. So much that we do and we try to do it in partnership with AWS. >> Danielle, can you comment on the impact that AWS has made so far regarding some of the trends and and gender diversity that Sue was talking about? What's the impact that's been made so far with this partnership? >> Well, I think just being able to get more of the data and have awareness of leaders on how... it used to be a couple years back, I would feel like sometimes the solving to bring more women into the organization was kind of something that folks thought, "Oh, this is... Danielle is going to solve this." And I think a lot of folks now realize, "Oh, this is something that we all need to solve for." And a lot of my colleagues, who maybe a couple years ago didn't have any awareness or didn't even have the tools to do what they needed to do in order to improve the statistics on their or in their organizations, now actually have those tools and are able to kind of work with companies like Susan's work with Jefferson Frank in order to actually get the data, and actually make good decisions, and feel as though they often... these are not lived experiences for these folks. So they don't know what they don't know. And by providing data, and providing awareness, and providing tooling, and then setting goals, I think all of those things have really turned things around in a very positive way. >> And so you bring up a great point about from a diversity perspective. What is Jefferson Frank doing to get those data points up to get more women of all, well, really underrepresented minorities to be able to provide that feedback so that you can have the data and gleamy insights from it to help companies like AWS on their strategic objectives? >> Right, so when I go back to that careers and hiring guide, that is my focus today really, because the more data that we have and the data takes... we need people to participate in order to accurately get ahold of that data. So that's why we're asking. We're taking the initiative to really expand our focus. We are a global organization with a very, very massive database all over the world. But if people don't take action then we can't get the right... the data will not be as accurate as we'd like it to be, therefore take better action. So what we're doing is we're asking people all over the world to participate on our website jeffersonfrank.com In the survey so we can learn as much as we can. 7% is such a... Danielle and I we've got to partner on this just to sort of get that message out there, get more data so we can execute. Some of the other things that we're doing, we're partnering, as I mentioned, more of these events. We're doing around the Summits, we're going to be having more EDNI events, and collecting more information from women. Like I said, internally, we do practice what we preach and we have our own programs that are out there, that are within our own company where the women who are talking to candidates and clients every single day are trying to get that message out there. So if I'm speaking to a client or one of our internal people are speaking to a client or a candidate, they're telling them, "Listen, we really are trying to get these numbers up. We want to attract as many people as we can. Would you mind going to this hiring guide and offering your own information?" So we've got to get that 7% up. We've got to keep talking. We've got to keep getting programs out there. One other thing I wanted to Danielle's point, she mentioned women in leadership, the number that we gathered was only 9% of women in leadership within the AWS ecosystem. We've got to get that number up as well, because I know for me, when I see people like Danielle or her peers it inspires me. And I feel like I just want to give back. Make sure I send the elevator back to the first floor and bring more women in to this amazing ecosystem. >> Absolutely, we need- >> Love that metaphor. >> I do too! But to your point to get those numbers up not just at AWS, but everywhere else we need It's a help me help you situation. >> Exactly. >> So ladies, underrepresented minorities, if you're watching go to the Jefferson Frank website, take the survey. Help provide the data so that the women here that are doing this amazing work, have it to help make decisions and have more of females in leadership roles or underrepresented minorities. So we can be what we can see. >> Exactly. >> Ladies, thank you so much for joining me today and sharing what you guys are doing together to partner on this important cause. >> Thank you for having me, Lisa! >> Thank you! Thank you! >> My pleasure! For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBES coverage of the AWS partner showcase. Thanks for your time. (gentle xylophone music)

(inspiring music) >> Announcer: theCUBE presents HPE Discover 2022. Brought to you by HPE. >> Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of HPE Discover 2022, from the Venetian in Las Vegas, the first Discover since 2019. I really think this is my 14th Discover, when you include HP, when you include Europe. And I got to say this Discover, I think has more energy than any one that I've ever seen, about 8,000 people here. Really excited to have one of HPE's longstanding partners, Veeam CTO, Danny Allen is here, joined by David Harvey, Vice President of Strategic Alliances at Veeam. Guys, good to see you again. It was just earlier, let's see, last month, we were together out here. >> Yeah, just a few weeks ago. It's fantastic to be back and what it's telling us, technology industry is coming back. >> And the events business, of course, is coming back, which we love. I think the expectations were cautious. You saw it at VeeamON, a little more than you expected, a lot of great energy. A lot of people, 'cause it was last month, it was their first time out, >> Yes. >> in two years. Here, I think people have started to go out more, but still, an energy that's palpable. >> You can definitely feel it. Last night, I think I went to four consecutive events and everyone's out having those discussions and having conversations, it's good to be back. >> You guys hosted the Storage party last night, which is epic. I left at midnight, I took a picture, it was still packed. I said, okay, time to go, nothing good happens after midnight kids. David, talk about the alliance with HPE, how it's evolved, and where you see it going? >> I appreciate it, and certainly this, as you said, has been a big alliance for us. Over 10 years or so, fantastic integrations across the board. And you touched on 2019 Discover. We launched with GreenLake at that event, we were one of the launch partners, and we've seen fantastic growth. Overall, what we're excited about, is that continuation of the movement of the customer's buying patterns in line with HPE's portfolio and in line with Veeam. We continue to be with all their primary, secondary storage, we continue to be a spearhead position with GreenLake, which we're really excited about. And we're also really excited to hear from HPE, unfortunately under NDA, some of their future stuff they're investing in, which is a really nice invigoration for what they're doing for their portfolio. And we see that being a big deal for us over the next 24 months. >> Your relationship with HPE predates the HP, HPE split. >> Mmm. >> Yes. >> But it was weird, because they had Data Protector, and that was a quasi-competitor, or really not, but it was a competitor, a legacy competitor, of what you guys have, kind of modern data protection I think is the tagline, if I got it right. Post the split, that was an S-curve moment, wasn't it, in terms of the partnership? >> It really was. If you go back 10 years, we did our first integration sending data to StoreOnce and we had some blueprints around that. But now, if you look what we have, we have integrations on the primary side, so, 3PAR, Primera, Nimble, all their top-tier storage, we can manage the snapshots. We have integration on the target side. We integrate with Catalyst in the movement of data and the management of data. And, as David alluded to, we integrate with GreenLake. So, customers who want to take this as a consumption model, we integrate with that. And so it's been, like you said, the strongest relationship that we have on the technology alliance side. >> So, V12, you announced at VeeamON. What does that mean for HPE customers, the relationship? Maybe you guys could both talk about that. >> Technology side, to touch on a few things that we're doing with them, ransomware has been a huge issue. Security's been a big theme, obviously, at the conference, >> Dave: Yeah, you bet. and one of the things we're doing in V12 is adding immutability for both StoreOnce and StoreEver. So, we take the features that our partners have, immutability being big in the security space, and we integrate that fully into the product. So a customer checks a box and says, hey, I want to make sure that the data is secure. >> Yeah, and also, it's another signification about the relationship. Every single release we've done has had HPE at the heart of it, and the same thing is being said with V12. And it shows to our customers, the continual commitment. Relationships come and go. They're hard, and the great news is, 10 years has proven that we get through good times and tricky situations, and we both continue to invest, et cetera. And I think there's a lot of peace of mind and the revenue figures prove that, which is what we're really excited about. >> Yeah I want to come back to that, but just to follow up, Danny, on that immutability, that's a feature that you check? It's service within GreenLake, or within Veeam? How does that all work? >> We have immutability now depending on the target. We introduced the ability to send data, for example, into S3 two years ago, and make it immutable when you send it to an S3 or S3 compatible environment. We added, in Version 11, the ability to take a Linux repository and make it, and harden it, essentially make it immutable. But what we're doing now is taking our partner systems like StoreOnce, like StoreEver, and when we send data there, we take advantage of an API flag or whatever it happens to be, that it makes the data, when it's written to that system, can't be deleted, can't be encrypted. Now, what does that mean for a customer? Well, we do all the hard work in the back end, it's just a check box. They say, I want to make it immutable, and we manage how long it's immutable. Because if you made everything immutable forever, that's hugely expensive, right? So, it's all about, how long is that immutable before you age it out and make sure the new data coming in is immutable. >> Dave: It's like an insurance policy, you have that overlap. >> Yes. >> Right, okay. And then David, you mentioned the revenue, Lou bears that out. I got the IDC guys comin' on later on today. I'll ask 'em about that, if that's their swim lane. But you guys are basically a statistical tie, with Dell for number one? Am I getting that right? And you're growing at a faster rate, I believe, it's hard to tell 'cause I don't think Dell reports on the pace of its growth within data protection. You guys obviously do, but is that right? It's a statistical tie, is it? >> Yeah, hundred percent. >> Yeah, statistical tie for first place, which we're super excited about. When I joined Veeam, I think we were in fifth place, but we've been in the leader's quadrant of the Gartner Magic- >> Cause and effect there or? (panelists laughing) >> No, I don't think so. >> Dave: Ha, I think maybe. >> We've been on a great trajectory. But statistical tie for first place, greatest growth sequentially, and year-over-year, of all of the data protection vendors. And that's a testament not just to the technology that we're doing, but partnerships with HPE, because you never do this, the value of a technology is not that technology alone, it's the value of that technology within the ecosystem. And so that's why we're here at HPE Discover. It's our joint technology solutions that we're delivering. >> What are your thoughts or what are you seeing in the field on As-a-service? Because of course, the messaging is all about As-a-service, you'd think, oh, a hundred percent of everything is going to be As-a-service. A lot of customers, they don't mind CapEx, they got good, balance sheet, and they're like, hey, we'll take care of this, and, we're going to build our own little internal cloud. But, what are you seeing in the market in terms of As-a-service, versus, just traditional licensing models? >> Certainly, there's a mix between the two. What I'd say, is that sources that are already As-a-service, think Microsoft 365, think AWS, Azure, GCP, the cloud providers. There's a natural tendency for the customer to want the data protection As-a-service, as well for those. But if you talk about what's on premises, customers who have big data centers deployed, they're not yet, the pendulum has not shifted for that to be data protection As-a-service. But we were early to this game ourselves. We have 10,000, what we call, Veeam Cloud Service Providers, that are offering data protection As-a-service, whether it be on premises, so they're remotely managing it, or cloud hosted, doing data protection for that. >> So, you don't care. You're providing the technology, and then your customers are actually choosing the delivery model. Is that correct? >> A hundred percent, and if you think about what GreenLake is doing for example, that started off as being a financial model, but now they're getting into that services delivery. And what we want to do is enable them to deliver it, As-a-service, not just the financial model, but the outcome for the customer. And so our technology, it's not just do backup, it's do backup for a multi-tenant, multi-customer environment that does all of the multi-tenancy and billing and charge back as part of that service. >> Okay, so you guys don't report on this, but I'm going to ask the question anyway. You're number one now, let's call you, let's declare number one, 'cause we're well past that last reporting and you're growin' faster. So go another quarter, you're now number one, so you're the largest. Do you spend more on R&D in data protection than any other company? >> Yes, I'm quite certain that we do. Now, we have an unfair advantage because we have 450,000 customers. I don't think there's any other data protection company out there, the size and scope and scale, that we have. But we've been expanding, our largest R&D operation center's in Prague, it's in Czech Republic, but we've been expanding that. Last year it grew 40% year on year in R&D, so big investment in that space. You can see this just through our product space. Five years ago, we did data protection of VMware only, and now we do all the virtual environments, all the physical environments, all the major cloud environments, Kubernetes, Microsoft 365, we're launching Salesforce. We announced that at VeeamON last month and it will be coming out in Q3. All of that is coming from our R&D investments. >> A lot of people expect that when a company like Insight, a PE company, purchases a company like Veeam, that one of the things they'll dial down is R&D. That did not happen in this case. >> No, they very much treat us as a growth company. We had 22% year-over-year growth in 2020, and 25% year-over-year last year. The growth has been tremendous, they continue to give us the freedom. Now, I expect they'll want returns like that continuously, but we have been delivering, they have been investing. >> One of my favorite conversations of the year was our supercloud conversation, which was awesome, thank you for doing that with me. But that's clearly an area of focus, what we call supercloud, and you don't use that term, I know, you do sometimes, but it's not your marketing, I get that. But that is an R&D intensive effort, is it not? To create that common experience. And you see HPE, attempting to do that as well, across all these different estates. >> A hundred percent. We focus on three things, I always say, our differentiators, simplicity, flexibility, and reliability. Making it simple for the customers is not an easy thing to do. Making that checkbox for immutability? We have to do a lot behind the scenes to make it simple. Same thing on flexibility. We don't care if they're using 3PAR, Primera, Nimble, whatever you want to choose as the primary storage, we will take that out of your hands and make it really easy. You mentioned supercloud. We don't care what the cloud infrastructure, it can be on GreenLake, it can be on AWS, can be on Azure, it can be on GCP, it can be on IBM cloud. It is a lot of effort on our part to abstract the cloud infrastructure, but we do that on behalf of our customers to take away that complexity, it's part of our platform. >> Quick follow-up, and then I want to ask a question of David. I like talking to you guys because you don't care where it is, right? You're truly agnostic to it all. I'm trying to figure out this repatriation thing, cause I hear a lot of hey, Dave, you should look into repatriation that's happened all over the place, and I see pockets of it. What are you seeing in terms of repatriation? Have customers over-rotated to the cloud and now they're pullin' back a little bit? Or is it, as I'm claiming, in pockets? What's your visibility on that? >> Three things I see happening. There's the customers who lifted up their data center, moved it into the cloud and they get the first bill. >> (chuckling) Okay. >> And they will repatriate, there's no question. If I talk to those customers who simply lifted up and moved it over because the CIO told them to, they're moving it back on premises. But a second thing that we see is people moving it over, with tweaks. So they'll take their SQL server database and they'll move it into RDS, they'll change some things. And then you have people who are building cloud-native, they're never coming back on premises, they are building it for the cloud environment. So, we see all three of those. We only really see repatriation on that first scenario, when they get that first bill. >> And when you look at the numbers, I think it gets lost, 'cause you see the cloud is growing so fast. So David, what are the conversations like? You had several events last night, The Veeam party, slash Storage party, from HPE. What are you hearing from your alliance partners and the customers at the event. >> I think Danny touched on that point, it's about philosophy of evolution. And I think at the end of the day, whether we're seeing it with our GSI alliances we've got out there, or with the big enterprise conversations we're having with HPE, it's about understanding which workloads they want to move. In our mind, the customers are getting much smarter in making that decision, rather than experimenting. They're really taking a really solid look. And the work we're doing with the GSIs on workplace modernization, data center transformation, they're really having that investment work up front on the workloads, to be able to say, this works for me, for my personality and my company. And so, to the point about movement, it's more about decisive decision at the start, and not feeling like the remit is, I have to do one thing or another, it's about looking at that workflow position. And that's what we've seen with the revenue part as well. We've seen our movement to GreenLake tremendously grow in the last 18 months to two years. And from our GSI work as well, we're seeing the types of conversations really focus on that workload, compared to, hey, I just need a backup solution, and that's really exciting. >> Are you having specific conversations about security, or is it a data protection conversation still, (David chuckles) that's an adjacency to security? >> That's a great question. And I think it's a complex one, because if you come to a company like Veeam, we are there, and you touched on it before, we provide a solution when something has happened with security. We're not doing intrusion detection, we're not doing that barrier position at the end of it, but it's part of an end-to-end assumption. And I don't think that at this particular point, I started in security with RSA and Check Point, it was about layers of protection. Now it's layers of protection, and the inevitability that at some point something will happen, so about the recovery. So the exciting conversations we're having, especially with the big enterprises, is not about the fear factor, it's about, at some point something's going to occur. Speed of recovery is the conversation. And so for us, and your question is, are they talking to us about security, or more, the continuity position? And that's where the synergy's getting a lot simpler, rather than a hard demark between security and backup. >> Yeah, when you look at the stock market, everything's been hit, but security, with the exception of Okta, 'cause it got that weird benign hack, but security, generally, is an area that CIOs have said, hey, we can't really dial that back. We can maybe, some other discretionary stuff, we'll steal and prioritize. But security seems to be, and I think data protection is now part of that discussion. You're not a security company. We've seen some of your competitors actually pivot to become security companies. You're not doing that, but it's very clearly an adjacency, don't you think? >> It's an adjacency, and it's a new conversation that we're having with the Chief Information Security Officer. I had a meeting an hour ago with a customer who was hit by ransomware, and they got the call at 2:00 AM in the morning, after the ransomware they recovered their entire portfolio within 36 hours, from backups. Didn't even contact Veeam, I found out during this meeting. But that is clearly something that the Chief Information Security Officer wants to know about. It's part of his purview, is the recovery of that data. >> And they didn't pay the ransom? >> And they did not pay the ransom, not a penny. >> Ahh, we love those stories. Guys, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. Congratulations on all the success. Love when you guys come on, and it was such a fun event at VeeamON. Great event here, and your presence is, was seen. The Veeam green is everywhere, so appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> Thanks, Dave. >> Okay, and thank you for watching. This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier and Lisa Martin. We'll be back right after this short break. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of HPE Discover 2022, from Las Vegas. (inspiring music)

>>We're seeing green here at Vemo in 2022, you're watching the cube, Dave ante and David Nicholson wrapping up our second day of coverage. Dave, good show. Good to be, you know, again, good to be back. This is our third show in a row. We're a Cuban as well. So the cube is, is out there, but same every, every show we go to so far has been most of the people here haven't been out in two plus years. Yeah. Right. And, and, and they're like, Hey, let's go. Let's hug. Let's shake. I got my red band on cuz we've been on a lot of shows or just being careful <laugh> um, you know, Hey, but it's great to see people back, uh, >>Absolutely >>Such a different vibe than virtual virtual sucks. Everybody hates it now, but now it's going hybrid. People are trying to figure that out. Yeah. Uh, but it's, it's in your view, what's different. What's the same >>In terms of, uh, in person versus hybrid kind of what's happened since what's >>Different being here now versus say 2019, not that you were here in 2019, but a show in 2019. >>I, I think there's right now, there's a certain sense of, uh, of appreciation for the ability to come and do this. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, >>As opposed to on we or oh, another show, right? >>Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and, uh, a personal opinion is that, um, I think that the hybrid model moving forward is going to end up being additive. I don't know that I don't, you know, people say we'll never go back to having in person the way we did before. Um, I'm holding out hope that that's not the case because I, I think so there's so much value to the kinds of conversations that we have, not only here on the set with folks in person, but just the hallway conversations, uh, the dinner conversations, um, those are so critical, uh, not only with between vendors and customers, but between different business units. Um, you know, I, I, I came into this thinking, you know, I know Veeam very well. I've known them since the beginning. Um, but you think I'm going to a conference to talk about backup software and it wasn't like that at all. I mean, this is, this is an overarching, very, very interesting subject to cover. So how is it different? I think people are appreciative. I wouldn't say we're backed full throttle a hundred percent, um, uh, back in the game yet. But, uh, but we we're getting there. Some >>Of the highlights Veeam now, number one, statistical tie for first place in revenue. There aren't a lot of segments, especially in storage where Dell is not number one, I guess technically Dell is like, I don't know, half a percentage point ahead, but Veeam's gonna blow by that. Unless Dell gets its data, >>Protect me as the luxury of focus, they can focus >>Like a laser on it focus. Right? That, that we, we saw this in the P PC where focused, we saw Dell's ascendancy cuz they were focused on PCs, right? Yeah. We saw Seagate on dis drives Intel and microprocesors Oracle on databases and, and, and Veeam applied that model to what they call modern data protection. Um, and, and the, so the reason why we think they're gonna go past is they growing at 20 plus percent each year. And, and I can almost guarantee Dell's data protection business isn't although it's been in a, I, I sense a downward slope lately, they don't divulge that data. Um, but if they were growing nicely, they would be talking about it. So I think they've been kind of hiding that ball, but Dell, you know, you can't count those guys out they're baby. >>No, you can't. And there's always >>A, they don't like to lose. They get that EMC DNA still in >>There. Yeah. You take, you can, you might take your eye off the ball for a little while to focus on other things. But uh, I think it'll be healthy for the industry at large, as Veeam continues to take market share. There's definitely gonna be pushback from, from others in the field, but >>The pure software play. Um, and you know that no hardware agenda thing and all that I think is, is clearly in Veeam's favor. Uh, but we'll see. I mean, Dell's got other, other strengths as do others. I mean, this is, this is, let's not forget this, this, this market is crowded and getting kind. I mean, you got, you got other players, new, new entrants, like cohesive in Rubrik Rubic, by the way is the one I was kind of referring to. That seems to be, you go to their LinkedIn, they seem to be pivoting to security. I was shocked when I saw that. I'm like, wow, is that just like a desperation move? Is that a way to get your valuation up? Is that, is there something I'm missing? I, I don't know. I haven't talked to those guys in a little bit, need to get, get there, but cause he and Rubrik couldn't get to IPO prior to, uh, you know, the, the, the, the, the tech sell off the tech lash. >>If you will Veeam, didn't need toves. We have 30% EBITDA and, and has had it for a while. So they've been, they caught lightning in a bottle years ago, and then now they got the inside capital behind them. Um, you got new entrance, like, like Kuo, you got com. Vault is out there. You still got, you know, Veritas is still out there competing and you know, a number of other, you get you got is wherever HP software landed in, in the MicroStrategy, uh, micro strategy. <laugh> um, no not micro strategy anyway, in that portfolio of companies that HP sold its software business to, you know, they're still out there. So, you know, a lot of ways to, to buy backup and recovery software, but these guys being the leader is no surprise. >>Yeah. You know, it's, I, I, I have to say it to me. It's a classic story of discipline >>Microfocus, sorry, >>Microfocus. Yeah, that's right. That's right. You know, it's funny. I, I, I could see that logo on a, I know I've got a notebook at home. Um, but, but theme is a classic example of well disciplined growth where you're not playing the latest buzzword game and trying to create adjacent businesses that are really, that might sound sexy, but have nothing to do with your core. They've been very, very disciplined about their approach, starting with, you know, looking at VMFS and saying, this is what we're gonna do, and then branching out from there in a logical way. So, so they're not out ahead of the tips of their skis in a way that some others have have gotten. And those, you know, sometimes swinging for the fence is great, but you can strike out that way also. And they've been hitting, you know, you could say they've been hitting singles and doubles just over and over and over again for years now. Well, that's been a great strategy. >>You've seen this a lot. I mean, I, I think you watched this at EMC when you were there as you, it was acquisitions to try to keep the growth up. It was, it was great marketing. I mean, unbelievable marketing cloud meets big data. Oh yeah. And you'd hear on CNBC. AMC is the cloud company. You're like, eh, fucking have a cloud. So, so you, you you've seen companies do that to your point about getting ahead of your skis. VMs never done that EMS like, eh, this is the product that works great. Yeah. Customers love it. They buy it, you know, we got the distribution channel set up and so that's always been, been, been part of their DNA. Um, and I think the other piece is putting meat on the bone of the tagline of modern data protection. When I first heard that I'm like, mm, okay. >>But then when you peel the onion on that, the core is back up in recovery, a lot of focus on recovery. And then the way they, I remember it was there in the audience when they announced, you know, support for bare metal, people went crazy. I'm like, wow, okay. They cuz they used to say, oh, never virtualization forever. Okay. So they beat that drum and you never say never in this business, do you, and then moving on to cloud and hybrid and containers and we're hearing about super cloud now, and maybe there'll be an edge use case there it's still unclear what that pattern is. You've talked about that with Zs, but it's not clear to me where you put your muscle yet in, um, in edge, but really being able to manage all that data that is people talk about data management that starts to be data management. And they've got a footprint that enables 'em to do that. >>Yeah. And, and I'd like to see that same discipline approach. That's gotten them here to continue no need to get on board a hype cycle. Um, what I really love from a business execution perspective from Veeam is the fact that they know their place in terms of the, their strategic advisory role for end user customers and their places largely in partnership with folks in the channel partners, large and small, um, in a couple of the conversations we had over the last few days, we talked about this idea that there are fewer and fewer seats at the table. Uh, working with customers, customers can't have 25 strategic vendor partners and a lot of smaller niche players that focus on something even as important as backup will pretend that they are, that they hold the same sort of strategic weight as a hyperscale cloud provider. Does they pretend that they're gonna be there in the CX O meetings? Um, when they're not Veeam knows exactly how to best leverage what they do with customers and that's through partners in the channel. >>The other thing is, um, new CEO, a non Eron, uh, the fifth CEO, I think I'm correct. Is that right at, at VE yes. Um, so two founders, uh, and then when Peter McKay came on, he was co CEO. Um, and then, um, yep. And let's see, I think yep. You the fifth. Okay. So each of the CEOs kind of had their own mark. Right. Um, and we asked an on in the analyst thing, what do you want your legacy to be? And I, I loved his answer. He's like, this is a fragmented business with a lot of adjacencies and we are the leader in revenue, but we only have 12% revenue share. I want to take that to 25%, 40%. That's like EMC at 30 plus percent of the storage market, Cisco of 60% of the networking market. Wow. If anybody could ever get there, but so 25 to 30% of a market that's that's big. Yeah. I liked his demeanor thought he had a really good style philosophy. Well-spoken well spoken. So new leadership, obviously insight brought him in to take them to the next level. Um, and, and really drive. I gotta believe get ready for IPO. We kind of admitted that. >>Yeah. And I, and IPO for them, one thing he mentioned is that, um, in this case, this is not an IPO let's high five and go to Vegas and get table service because now we finally have money. Uh, they're not doing, you know, obviously an injection in capital from an IPO is always a good thing or should be a good thing if handled properly, but that's not their primary driver. So it'll be very interesting to see if they can hit the timing. Right. Um, how that, how that works out >>Well and, and bill large is his was predecessor. Uh, he, he, he took over, uh, once the company, excuse me, went private. Um, >>Yeah, that phone backed up. >>I still good in the mic once the company went private, uh, well, no, they were always private. Once they got acquired for five plus billion dollars from inside capital, um, they, they put bill in charge, perfect choice for the transition. And it was like, okay, bill. It's like, when you, my brother's a sailor. He says, Hey, take, take the wheel, see that lighthouse or see that tree go for it, keep it on track. And that's what bill did. Perfect. And he knew the company knew where all the skeletons were buried and, and was perfect. Perfect transition for that. Now they're bringing in somebody who they feel can take it to the next level. They're at a billion. He said he could see 5 billion and, and beyond. So that's kind of cool. Um, the other thing was ecosystem as companies got a really robust ecosystem, all the storage array vendors came on. >>The, the, the backup appliance companies, you know, came on to the cube and had a presence here. Why? Because this is where all the customers are. This is the leader in backup in recovery. Yeah. They all want to partner with that leader. Now they're at out the other shows as well, uh, for the Veeam competitors, but frankly, Veeam, Veeam competitors. They don't have, like you said, they're pure play. Many of them don't have a show like this, or it's a smaller event. Um, and so they gotta be here. Uh, and I think the, the, the other thing was the ransomware study. What I really liked about Veeam is they not only just talked about it, they not only talked about their solution. They sh they did deep dive surveys and shared a ton of data with guys that knew data. Um, Dave Russell and Jason Buffington, both former analysts, Russell was a Gartner very well respected top Gartner analyst for years. Jason buff, Buffington at ESG who those guys did always did some really good, still do deep research. So you had them representing that data, but sharing it with the community, of course, it's, it's gonna be somewhat self-serving, but it wasn't as blatant. It that wasn't nearly as blatant as I often see with these surveys, gender surveys, I'll look at 'em. I can tell within like, seconds, whether it's just a bunch of marketing, you know, what, or there's real substance. Yeah. And this one had real substance to >>It. Yeah. And it's okay. When substance supports your business model. >>Yeah. Cool. >>It's great. Good >>Marketing. But yeah, as an best marketing, I'm not gonna use it. The whole industry can use this and build on it. Yeah. I think there were a lot of unanswered questions. I, what I love about Vema is they're going back and they, they did it in February. They, they updated it just recently. Now they're going back and doing more cuz they want to get it by country. So they're making investments. And then they're sharing that with the industry. I love that. >>It'll be interesting to see if they continue it over time, how things change if things change. Um, one of the things that we really didn't talk a lot about is, uh, and you know, it's, I know it's talked about behind closed doors, um, this idea of, uh, stockpiling day zero exploits, and the fact that a lot of these, these >>Things, >>A lot of these problems arguably could have been headed off, had our taxpayer funded organizations, shared information with private industry in a more timely fashion. Um, um, we had, um, uh, uh, was it, uh, Gina from AWS who gave the example of, uh, the not Petia, uh, experience in the hospital environment. And that came directly out of frankly a day zero exploit that the NSA had identified years earlier within Microsoft's operating system. And, uh, somehow others got ahold of that and used it for nefarious means. So the intent to stockpile and hang onto these things is always, um, noble, but sometimes the result is, uh, less than desirable. So that's, it'll be an interesting conversation. >>We'd be remiss if we didn't mention the, the casting acquisition, the, the, the container data protection, small piece of the business today. Uh, but strategic in the sense that, yeah, absolutely. If you want to appeal to developers, if, if, if, if, if you want to be in the cloud, you know, you better be able to talk containers generally in Kubernetes specifically. So they gotta play there as well. >>Well, they, they, they hit virtualization cloud containers. Maybe I'm missing something in between, but they seem to be >>Ransomware >>Catching waves effectively. Yeah. Ransomware, uh, catching waves effectively, uh, again, not in an artificial buzzword driven way, but in a legitimate disciplined business growth approach that, uh, that's impressive. >>And I, and I think Danny mentioned this, we, he said we've been a PLG product led growth company. Um, and I think they're evolving now. We talked about platforms versus product. We still got still a product company. Uh, but they're bill wants to build out a Supercloud. So we're watching that very closely. I, I think it is a thing. You got a lot of grief for the term, super cloud. Some people wince at it, but it's, there's something brewing. There's something different. That's not just cloud public cloud, not hybrid cloud, not private cloud it's across cloud it's super cloud. All right, Dave, Hey, it was a pleasure working with you this week. Always kind of funny. I mean, we're, the crew was out in, uh, in Valencia, Spain. Yeah. Uh, they'll in fact, they'll be broadcasting, I believe all the way through Friday. Uh, that's an early morning thing for the, uh, for the west coast and, but east coast should be able to catch that easily. >>Of course you can all check out all the replays on the cube.net, also YouTube, youtube.com/silicon angle go to wikibon.com. There's some, you know, research there I publish every week and, and others do, uh, as well, maybe not as frequently, but, uh, we have a great relationship with ETR. I'm gonna poke into some data protection stuff in their survey. See if I can find some interesting, uh, data there. And don't forget to go to Silicon an angle.com, which is all the news. This is the cube, our flagship production we're out at VEON 2022. Thanks for watching.

>> From "theCUBE" studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from "theCUBE" and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> There are very few political issues that get bipartisan support these days, nevermind consensus spanning geopolitical boundaries. But whether we're talking across the aisle or over the pond, there seems to be common agreement that the power of big tech firms should be regulated. But the government's track record when it comes to antitrust aimed at big tech is actually really mixed, mixed at best. History has shown that market forces rather than public policy have been much more effective at curbing monopoly power in the technology industry. Hello, and welcome to this week's "Wikibon CUBE" insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis" we welcome in frequent "CUBE" contributor Dave Moschella, author and senior fellow at the Information Technology and Innovation Foundation. Dave, welcome, good to see you again. >> Hey, thanks Dave, good to be here. >> So you just recently published an article, we're going to bring it up here and I'll read the title, "Theory Aside, Antitrust Advocates Should Keep Their "Big Tech" Ambitions Narrow". And in this post you argue that big sweeping changes like breaking apart companies to moderate monopoly power in the tech industry have been ineffective compared to market forces, but you're not saying government shouldn't be involved rather you're suggesting that more targeted measures combined with market forces are the right answer. Can you maybe explain a little bit more the premise behind your research and some of your conclusions? >> Sure, and first let's go back to that title, when I said, theory aside, that is referring to a huge debate that's going on in global antitrust circles these days about whether antitrust should follow the traditional path of being invoked when there's real harm, demonstrable harm to consumers or a new theory that says that any sort of vast monopoly power inevitably will be bad for competition and consumers at some point, so your best to intervene now to avoid harms later. And that school, which was a very minor part of the antitrust world for many, many years is now quite ascendant and the debate goes on doesn't matter which side of that you're on the questions sort of there well, all right, well, if you're going to do something to take on big tech and clearly many politicians, regulators are sort of issuing to do something, what would you actually do? And what are the odds that that'll do more good than harm? And that was really the origins of the piece and trying to take a historical view of that. >> Yeah, I learned a new word, thank you. Neo-brandzian had to look it up, but basically you're saying that traditionally it was proving consumer harm versus being proactive about the possibility or likelihood of consumer harm. >> Correct, and that's a really big shift that a lot of traditional antitrust people strongly object to, but is now sort of the trendy and more send and view. >> Got it, okay, let's look a little deeper into the history of tech monopolies and government action and see what we can learn from that. We put together this slide that we can reference. It shows the three historical targets in the tech business and now the new ones. In 1969, the DOJ went after IBM, Big Blue and it's 13 years later, dropped its suit. And then in 1984 the government broke Ma Bell apart and in the late 1990s, went after Microsoft, I think it was 1998 in the Wintel monopoly. And recently in an interview with tech journalist, Kara Swisher, the FTC chair Lena Khan claimed that the government played a major role in moderating the power of tech giants historically. And I think she even specifically referenced Microsoft or maybe Kara did and basically said the industry and consumers from the dominance of companies like Microsoft. So Dave, let's briefly talk about and Kara by the way, didn't really challenge that, she kind of let it slide. But let's talk about each of these and test this concept a bit. Were the government actions in these instances necessary? What were the outcomes and the consequences? Maybe you could start with IBM and AT&T. >> Yeah, it's a big topic and there's a lot there and a lot of history, but I might just sort of introduce by saying for whatever reasons antitrust has been part of the entire information technology industry history from mainframe to the current period and that slide sort of gives you that. And the reasons for that are I think once that we sort of know the economies of scale, network effects, lock in safe choices, lot of things that explain it, but the good bit about that is we actually have so much history of this and we can at least see what's happened in the past and when you look at IBM and AT&T they both were massive antitrust cases. The one against IBM was dropped and it was dropped in as you say, in 1980. Well, what was going on in at that time, IBM was sort of considered invincible and unbeatable, but it was 1981 that the personal computer came around and within just a couple of years the world could see that the computing paradigm had change from main frames and minis to PCs lines client server and what have you. So IBM in just a couple of years went from being unbeatable, you can't compete with them, we have to break up with them to being incredibly vulnerable and in trouble and never fully recovered and is sort of a shell of what it once was. And so the market took care of that and no action was really necessary just by everybody thinking there was. The case of AT&T, they did act and they broke up the company and I would say, first question is, was that necessary? Well, lots of countries didn't do that and the reality is 1980 breaking it up into long distance and regional may have made some sense, but by the 1990 it was pretty clear that the telecom world was going to change dramatically from long distance and fixed wires services to internet services, data services, wireless services and all of these things that we're going to restructure the industry anyways. But AT& T one to me is very interesting because of the unintended consequences. And I would say that the main unintended consequence of that was America's competitiveness in telecommunications took a huge hit. And today, to this day telecommunications is dominated by European, Chinese and other firms. And the big American sort of players of the time AT&T which Western Electric became Lucent, Lucent is now owned by Nokia and is really out of it completely and most notably and compellingly Bell Labs, the Bell Labs once the world's most prominent research institution now also a shell of itself and as it was part of Lucent is also now owned by the Finnish company Nokia. So that restructuring greatly damaged America's core strength in telecommunications hardware and research and one can argue we've never recovered right through this 5IG today. So it's a very good example of the market taking care of, the big problem, but meddling leading to some unintended consequences that have hurt the American competitiveness and as we'll talk about, probably later, you can see some of that going on again today and in the past with Microsoft and Intel. >> Right, yeah, Bell Labs was an American gem, kind of like Xerox PARC and basically gone now. You mentioned Intel and Microsoft, Microsoft and Intel. As many people know, some young people don't, IBM unwillingly handed its monopoly to Intel and Microsoft by outsourcing the micro processor and operating system, respectively. Those two companies ended up with IBM ironically, agreeing to take OS2 which was its proprietary operating system and giving Intel, Microsoft Windows not realizing that its ability to dominate a new disruptive market like PCs and operating systems had been vaporized to your earlier point by the new Wintel ecosystem. Now Dave, the government wanted to break Microsoft apart and split its OS business from its application software, in the case of Intel, Intel only had one business. You pointed out microprocessors so it couldn't bust it up, but take us through the history here and the consequences of each. >> Well, the Microsoft one is sort of a classic because the antitrust case which was raging in the sort of mid nineties and 1998 when it finally ended, those were the very, once again, everybody said, Bill Gates was unstoppable, no one could compete with Microsoft they'd buy them, destroy them, predatory pricing, whatever they were accusing of the attacks on Netscape all these sort of things. But those the very years where it was becoming clear first that Microsoft basically missed the early big years of the internet and then again, later missed all the early years of the mobile phone business going back to BlackBerrys and pilots and all those sorts of things. So here we are the government making the case that this company is unstoppable and you can't compete with them the very moment they're entirely on the defensive. And therefore wasn't surprising that that suit eventually was dropped with some minor concessions about Microsoft making it a little bit easier for third parties to work with them and treating people a little bit more, even handling perfectly good things that they did. But again, the more market took care of the problem far more than the antitrust activities did. The Intel one is also interesting cause it's sort of like the AT& T one. On the one hand antitrust actions made Intel much more likely and in fact, required to work with AMD enough to keep that company in business and having AMD lowered prices for consumers certainly probably sped up innovation in the personal computer business and appeared to have a lot of benefits for those early years. But when you look at it from a longer point of view and particularly when look at it again from a global point of view you see that, wow, they not so clear because that very presence of AMD meant that there's a lot more pressure on Intel in terms of its pricing, its profitability, its flexibility and its volumes. All the things that have made it harder for them to A, compete with chips made in Taiwan, let alone build them in the United States and therefore that long term effect of essentially requiring Intel to allow AMD to exist has undermined Intel's position globally and arguably has undermined America's position in the long run. And certainly Intel today is far more vulnerable to an ARM and Invidia to other specialized chips to China, to Taiwan all of these things are going on out there, they're less capable of resisting that than they would've been otherwise. So, you thought we had some real benefits with AMD and lower prices for consumers, but the long term unintended consequences are arguably pretty bad. >> Yeah, that's why we recently wrote in Intel two "Strategic To Fail", we'll see, Okay. now we come to 2022 and there are five companies with anti-trust targets on their backs. Although Microsoft seems to be the least susceptible to US government ironically intervention at this this point, but maybe not and we show "The Cincos Comas Club" in a homage to Russ Hanneman of the show "Silicon Valley" Apple, Microsoft, Google, and Amazon all with trillion dollar plus valuations. But meta briefly crossed that threshold like Mr. Hanneman lost a comma and is now well under that market cap probably around five or 600 million, sorry, billion. But under serious fire nonetheless Dave, people often don't realize the immense monopoly power that IBM had which relatively speaking when measured its percent of industry revenue or profit dwarf that of any company in tech ever, but the industry is much smaller then, no internet, no cloud. Does it call for a different approach this time around? How should we think about these five companies their market power, the implications of government action and maybe what you suggested more narrow action versus broad sweeping changes. >> Yeah, and there's a lot there. I mean, if you go back to the old days IBM had what, 70% of the computer business globally and AT&T had 90% or so of the American telecom market. So market shares that today's players can only dream of. Intel and Microsoft had 90% of the personal computer market. And then you look at today the big five and as wealthy and as incredibly successful as they've been, you sort of have almost the argument that's wrong on the face of it. How can five companies all of which compete with each other to at least some degree, how can they all be monopolies? And the reality is they're not monopolies, they're all oligopolies that are very powerful firms, but none of them have an outright monopoly on anything. There are competitors in all the spaces that they're in and increasing and probably increasingly so. And so, yeah, I think people conflate the extraordinary success of the companies with this belief that therefore they are monopolist and I think they're far less so than those in the past. >> Great, all right, I want to do a quick drill down to cloud computing, it's a key component of digital business infrastructure in his book, "Seeing Digital", Dave Moschella coined a term the matrix or the key which is really referred to the key technology platforms on which people are going to build digital businesses. Dave, we joke you should have called it the metaverse you were way ahead of your time. But I want to look at this ETR chart, we show spending momentum or net score on the vertical access market share or pervasiveness in the dataset on the horizontal axis. We show this view a lot, we put a dotted line at the 40% mark which indicates highly elevated spending. And you can sort of see Microsoft in the upper right, it's so far up to the right it's hidden behind the January 22 and AWS is right there. Those two dominate the cloud far ahead of the pack including Google Cloud. Microsoft and to a lesser extent AWS they dominate in a lot of other businesses, productivity, collaboration, database, security, video conferencing. MarTech with LinkedIn PC software et cetera, et cetera, Googles or alphabets of business of course is ads and we don't have similar spending data on Apple and Facebook, but we know these companies dominate their respective business. But just to give you a sense of the magnitude of these companies, here's some financial data that's worth looking at briefly. The table ranks companies by market cap in trillions that's the second column and everyone in the club, but meta and each has revenue well over a hundred billion dollars, Amazon approaching half a trillion dollars in revenue. The operating income and cash positions are just mind boggling and the cash equivalents are comparable or well above the revenues of highly successful tech companies like Cisco, Dell, HPE, Oracle, and Salesforce. They're extremely profitable from an operating income standpoint with the clear exception of Amazon and we'll come back to that in a moment and we show the revenue multiples in the last column, Apple, Microsoft, and Google, just insane. Dave, there are other equally important metrics, CapX is one which kind of sets the stage for future scale and there are other measures. >> Yeah, including our research and development where those companies are spending hundreds of billions of dollars over the years. And I think it's easy to look at those numbers and just say, this doesn't seem right, how can any companies have so much and spend so much? But if you think of what they're actually doing, those companies are building out the digital infrastructure of essentially the entire world. And I remember once meeting some folks at Google, and they said, beyond AI, beyond Search, beyond Android, beyond all the specific things we do, the biggest thing we're actually doing is building a physical infrastructure that can deliver search results on any topic in microseconds and the physical capacity they built costs those sorts of money. And when people start saying, well, we should have lots and lots of smaller companies well, that sounds good, yeah, it's all right, but where are those companies going to get the money to build out what needs to be built out? And every country in the world is trying to build out its digital infrastructure and some are going to do it much better than others. >> I want to just come back to that chart on Amazon for a bit, notice their comparatively tiny operating profit as a percentage of revenue, Amazon is like Bezos giant lifestyle business, it's really never been that profitable like most retail. However, there's one other financial data point around Amazon's business that we want to share and this chart here shows Amazon's operating profit in the blue bars and AWS's in the orange. And the gray line is the percentage of Amazon's overall operating profit that comes from AWS. That's the right most access, so last quarter we were well over a hundred percent underscoring the power of AWS and the horrendous margins in retail. But AWS is essentially funding Amazon's entrance into new markets, whether it's grocery or movies, Bezos moves into space. Dave, a while back you collaborated with us and we asked our audience, what could disrupt Amazon? And we came up with your detailed help, a number of scenarios as shown here. And we asked the audience to rate the likelihood of each scenario in terms of its likelihood of disrupting Amazon with a 10 being highly likely on average the score was six with complacency, arrogance, blindness, you know, self-inflicted wounds really taking the top spot with 6.5. So Dave is breaking up Amazon the right formula in your view, why or why not? >> Yeah, there's a couple of things there. The first is sort of the irony that when people in the sort of regulatory world talk about the power of Amazon, they almost always talk about their power in consumer markets, whether it's books or retail or impact on malls or main street shops or whatever and as you say that they make very little money doing that. The interest people almost never look at the big cloud battle between Amazon, Microsoft and lesser extent Google, Alibaba others, even though that's where they're by far highest market share and pricing power and all those things are. So the regulatory focus is sort of weird, but you know, the consumer stuff obviously gets more appeal to the general public. But that survey you referred to me was interesting because one of the challenges I sort of sent myself I was like okay, well, if I'm going to say that IBM case, AT&T case, Microsoft's case in all those situations the market was the one that actually minimized the power of those firms and therefore the antitrust stuff wasn't really necessary. Well, how true is that going to be again, just cause it's been true in the past doesn't mean it's true now. So what are the possible scenarios over the 2020s that might make it all happen again? And so each of those were sort of questions that we put out to others, but the ones that to me by far are the most likely I mean, they have the traditional one of company cultures sort of getting fat and happy and all, that's always the case, but the more specific ones, first of all by far I think is China. You know, Amazon retail is a low margin business. It would be vulnerable if it didn't have the cloud profits behind it, but imagine a year from now two years from now trade tensions with China get worse and Christmas comes along and China just says, well, you know, American consumers if you want that new exercise bike or that new shoes or clothing, well, anything that we make well, actually that's not available on Amazon right now, but you can get that from Alibaba. And maybe in America that's a little more farfetched, but in many countries all over the world it's not farfetched at all. And so the retail divisions vulnerability to China just seems pretty obvious. Another possible disruption, Amazon has spent billions and billions with their warehouses and their robots and their automated inventory systems and all the efficiencies that they've done there, but you could argue that maybe someday that's not really necessary that you have Search which finds where a good is made and a logistical system that picks that up and delivers it to customers and why do you need all those warehouses anyways? So those are probably the two top one, but there are others. I mean, a lot of retailers as they get stronger online, maybe they start pulling back some of the premium products from Amazon and Amazon takes their cut of whatever 30% or so people might want to keep more of that in house. You see some of that going on today. So the idea that the Amazon is in vulnerable disruption is probably is wrong and as part of the work that I'm doing, as part of stuff that I do with Dave and SiliconANGLE is how's that true for the others too? What are the scenarios for Google or Apple or Microsoft and the scenarios are all there. And so, will these companies be disrupted as they have in the past? Well, you can't say for sure, but the scenarios are certainly plausible and I certainly wouldn't bet against it and that's what history tells us. And it could easily happen once again and therefore, the antitrust should at least be cautionary and humble and realize that maybe they don't need to act as much as they think. >> Yeah, now, one of the things that you mentioned in your piece was felt like narrow remedies, were more logical. So you're not arguing for totally Les Affaire you're pushing for remedies that are more targeted in scope. And while the EU just yesterday announced new rules to limit the power of tech companies and we showed the article, some comments here the regulators they took the social media to announce a victory and they had a press conference. I know you watched that it was sort of a back slapping fest. The comments however, that we've sort of listed here are mixed, some people applauded, but we saw many comments that were, hey, this is a horrible idea, this was rushed together. And these are going to result as you say in unintended consequences, but this is serious stuff they're talking about applying would appear to be to your point or your prescription more narrowly defined restrictions although a lot of them to any company with a market cap of more than 75 billion Euro or turnover of more than 77.5 billion Euro which is a lot of companies and imposing huge penalties for violations up to 20% of annual revenue for repeat offenders, wow. So again, you've taken a brief look at these developments, you watched the press conference, what do you make of this? This is an application of more narrow restrictions, but in your quick assessment did they get it right? >> Yeah, let's break that down a little bit, start a little bit of history again and then get to Europe because although big sweeping breakups of the type that were proposed for IBM, Microsoft and all weren't necessary that doesn't mean that the government didn't do some useful things because they did. In the case of IBM government forces in Europe and America basically required IBM to make it easier for companies to make peripherals type drives, disc drives, printers that worked with IBM mainframes. They made them un-bundle their software pricing that made it easier for database companies and others to sell their of products. With AT&T it was the government that required AT&T to actually allow other phones to connect to the network, something they argued at the time would destroy security or whatever that it was the government that required them to allow MCI the long distance carrier to connect to the AT network for local deliveries. And with that Microsoft and Intel the government required them to at least treat their suppliers more even handly in terms of pricing and policies and support and such things. So the lessons out there is the big stuff wasn't really necessary, but the little stuff actually helped a lot and I think you can see the scenarios and argue in the piece that there's little stuff that can be done today in all the cases for the big five, there are things that you might want to consider the companies aren't saints they take advantage of their power, they use it in ways that sometimes can be reigned in and make for better off overall. And so that's how it brings us to the European piece of it. And to me, the European piece is much more the bad scenario of doing too much than the wiser course of trying to be narrow and specific. What they've basically done is they have a whole long list of narrow things that they're all trying to do at once. So they want Amazon not to be able to share data about its selling partners and they want Apple to open up their app store and they don't want people Google to be able to share data across its different services, Android, Search, Mail or whatever. And they don't want Facebook to be able to, they want to force Facebook to open up to other messaging services. And they want to do all these things for all the big companies all of which are American, and they want to do all that starting next year. And to me that looks like a scenario of a lot of difficult problems done quickly all of which might have some value if done really, really well, but all of which have all kinds of risks for the unintended consequence we've talked before and therefore they seem to me being too much too soon and the sort of problems we've seen in the past and frankly to really say that, I mean, the Europeans would never have done this to the companies if they're European firms, they're doing this because they're all American firms and the sort of frustration of Americans dominance of the European tech industry has always been there going back to IBM, Microsoft, Intel, and all of them. But it's particularly strong now because the tech business is so big. And so I think the politics of this at a time where we're supposedly all this great unity of America and NATO and Europe in regards to Ukraine, having the Europeans essentially go after the most important American industry brings in the geopolitics in I think an unavoidable way. And I would think the story is going to get pretty tense over the next year or so and as you say, the Europeans think that they're taking massive actions, they think they're doing the right thing. They think this is the natural follow on to the GDPR stuff and even a bigger version of that and they think they have more to come and they see themselves as the people taming big tech not just within Europe, but for the world and absent any other rules that they may pull that off. I mean, GDPR has indeed spread despite all of its flaws. So the European thing which it doesn't necessarily get huge attention here in America is certainly getting attention around the world and I would think it would get more, even more going forward. >> And the caution there is US public policy makers, maybe they can provide, they will provide a tailwind maybe it's a blind spot for them and it could be a template like you say, just like GDPR. Okay, Dave, we got to leave it there. Thanks for coming on the program today, always appreciate your insight and your views, thank you. >> Hey, thanks a lot, Dave. >> All right, don't forget these episodes are all available as podcast, wherever you listen. All you got to do is search, "Breaking Analysis Podcast". Check out ETR website, etr.ai. We publish every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And you can email me david.vellante@siliconangle.com or DM me @davevellante. Comment on my LinkedIn post. This is Dave Vellante for Dave Michelle for "theCUBE Insights" powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (slow tempo music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to the CUBE Conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. I'm talking next with Sanzio Bassini, the Head of High Performance Computing at Cineca, at DELL technologies customer. Sanzio, welcome to the CUBE. >> Thank you, it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure. >> Likewise, nice to see you. So tell us a little bit about Cineca. This is a large computing center, but a very large Italian nonprofit consortium. Tell us about it. >> Yes, Cineca been founded 50 years ago, from the university systems in Italy. For a statutory mission, which is to support, the scientific discovery, and the industry innovations, using the High Performance Computing and the correlated methodologies like a, Artificial Intelligence, which is one of the, you see the more, in a, in a adopted in those days, but together with the big data processing and and simulation. Yes, we are a consortium, which means that this is a private not-for-profit organizations. Currently, our member of the consortium, almost all the universities in Italy and also all the national agencies for those selected structures. Uh. The main quarter of Cineca is in Bologna, which is in the heart Nation, with the bunch of presence in Milan, in Rome and in Naples, so we are a consultation organization. >> And I also read that you were, are the top 10 out of the top 500 of the world's fastest super computers. That's a pretty big accomplishment. >> Yes. That is a part of our institutional missions, the last 10 to 15 years we have been to say, frequent flyers in the top 10. There been at least two, three systems that have been ranked at the top 10. Apart, the.., whatever would be the meaning of such an advance market, there's a lot of its criticalities. We are well aware. The idea is that we're enabling the scientific discovery, by means of providing the most advanced systems and the co-designing, the most advanced HPC systems to promote and support the, what is the, excellence in science. And that being part of European high-performance computing IT system. That is the case. >> Excellent. Now, talk to me about some of the challenges that Cineca is trying to solve in particular, the Human Brain Project. Talk to us a little bit about that and how you're leveraging high-performance computing to accelerate scientific discovery. >> Um, The Human Brain Project is one of the flagship project that has been co-founded by the European commission and that the participating member states. Is not as another situations that are undertaking, it's definitely a joint collaboration between members states and the European commission. There are two different right now, flagships together with another, that is in progress, which is that the quantum of flagship, the first two flagship abroad that that has been lost. The commission for operation with the participating states has been one on the digraph vein on which also we are participating in directly together with the CNR, is the national business counselor. And the second for which we are core partners of the HPC that is, the Human Brain Project. That, that is a big flagship, one million offer, of newer investment, co-founded by the participating states and that the European commission. The project it's going to set up, in what to do be the, third strategic grant agreement that they will go over the next three years, the good, the complete that the, the whole process. Then we see what is going to happen at Africa. We thought that their would be some others progress offer these big projects. It's project that would combine both the technology issues, like the designing the off high-performance computing systems that meet the requirements of the community and the big challenge, scientific challenges correlated to the physiological functions of the human brain center, including the different farm show survey to do with the behavior of the human brain. A from the pathological point of view, from the physiological point of view, that better understand the could be the way for, for a facing that. Let's say the pathology, some of those are very much correlated with respect to aging, and that it would impact the, the health, the public health systems. Some other that are correlating with what would be the support for the physiological knowledge of the, of the human brains. And finally that they, let me say, technological transfer stuff that represented the knowing off at the physiological, behavior of the human brain. Just to use a sort of metaphor to have happen from the point of view of there computational performance, the human brain is a, a, a, more than Exoscale systems, but with a energy consumption, which is very low, we are talking about some hundreds of Watts. So some hundreds of watts of energy, would provide a an extreme and computational performance. So if would could organized the technology of the high-performance computing in terms of interconnections now we're morphing the computing systems and exploitations of that kind of technologies, in I build a system that it might provide the computational power that would represent a tremendous and tremendous step ahead, in order to facing the big challenges of our base, like energies, personalized medicine, try not to change food for all those kinds of big socioeconomic challenges that we are facing. >> Yes I was reading that besides, sorry Sanzio I was reading that besides the Human Brain Project, there are other projects going on, such as that you mentioned, I'd like to understand how Cineca is working with Dell technologies. You have to translate, as you've mentioned a minute ago, the scientific requirements for discovery into high-performance computing requirements. Talk to me about how you've been doing that with partners like Dell technologies. >> Yes, in particularly in our computing architectures, we had the need to address the capability to facing the data processing involved with backed off the Human Brain Project and general speaking that is backed off the science vendor, that would combine the capability also to provide the cloud access to the system. So by main soft containers technologies and the capability also, to address what would be the creation of a Federation. So Piper problems with people proceeded in a new world. So at the end that the requirements and the terms of reference of the would matter will decline and the terms of a system that would be capable to manage, let's say, in a holistic approach, the data processing, the cloud computing services and the opportunity before for being integrated that in a Federation of HSBC system in Europe's, and with this backed off, that kind of thing, we manage a competitive dialogue procurement processor, I think I the sentence would share together with the different potential technology providers, what would be the visuals and those are the constraints (inaudible) and those other kinds of constraints like, I don't want to say, I mean, environmental kind of constraints and uh, sharing with this back of the technology provider what would it be the vision for this solution, in a very, let's say hard, the competitive dialogue, and at the end, results in a sort of, I don't want to say Darwinian processes, okay. So I mean, the survivors in terms of the different technology providers being Dell that shown the characteristics of the solution that it will be more, let's say compliant. And at the same time are flexible with respect of the combinations of very different constraints and requirements that has been the, the process that has been the outcomes of such a process. >> I like that you mentioned that Darwinian survival of the fittest and that Dell technologies has been, it sounds like a pretty flexible partner because you've got so many different needs and scientific needs to meet for different researchers. Talk to me about how you mentioned that this is a multi-national effort. How does Cineca serve and work with teams not only in Italy, but in other countries and from other institutes? >> Definitely the volume commitment that together with the, European member states is that by means of scientific merits and the peer review process, roughly speaking the arc of the production capacity, would be shared at the European level. That it's a commitment that, that there's been, that there's been a shared of that together with France, Germany, Spain, and, and with the London. So, I mean, our, half of our production capacity, it's a share of that at the European level, where also of course the Italian scientist can apply in the participates, but in a sort of offer emulations and the advanced competition for addressing what it would be the excellence in science. The remaining 50% of our production capacity is for, for the national community and, somehow to prepare and support the Italian community to be competitive on the worldwide scenario on the European and international scenario, uh that setting up would lead also to the agreement at the international level, with respect of some of the options that, that are promoted the progress in a US and in Japan also. So from this point of view, that mean that in some cases also the, access that it would come from researchers the best collaborations and the sharing options with the US researchers their or Japanese researchers in an open space. >> Open space for, it sounds like the Human Brain Project, which the HPC is powering, which has been around since 2013 is really facilitating global collaboration. Talk to me about some of the results that the high-performance computing environment has helped the Human Brain Project to achieve so far. >> The main outcomes that it will be consolidated in the next phase that will be need the by rural SPC that is the Jared undertaking um entities, that has been created for consolidating and for progressing the high-performance computing ecosystem in Europe. It represented by the Federations of high-performance computing systems at European level, there is a, a, an option that, that has been encapsulated and the elaborated inside the human brain flagship project which is called the FEHIPCSE that stand for Federation of a High-Performance Computing System in Europe. That uh provide the open service based on the two concepts on one, one is the sharing of the Heidi at a European level, so it means that the, the high demand of the users or researchers more properly. It's unique and Universal at the European level. That didn't mean better the same, we see identity management, education management with the open, and the access to the Cineca system, to the SARS system in France, to the unique system in, uh Germany to the, Diocese system in a Switzerland, to the Morocco System in a Spain. That is the part related to what will be the federated, the ID management, the others, et cetera, related to what will be the Federation off the data access. So from the point of view, again, the scientific community, mostly the community of Human Brain Project, but that will be open at other domains and other community, make sure that data in a seamless mode after European language, from the technological point of view, or let's say from the infrastructure point of view, very strong up, from the scientific point of view, uh what they think they may not, will be the most of the options is being supported by Cineca has to do with the two specific target. One is the elaboration of the data that are provided by the lands. The laws are a laboratory facility in that Florence. That is one of the four parts, and from the bottom view of the provisions of the data that is for the scattering, the, the data that would come from the mouse brains, that are use for, for (inaudible) And then the second part is for the Mayor scale studies of the cortex of the of the human brain, and that got add-on by a couple of groups that are believing that action from a European level their group of the National Researcher Counsel the CNR, that are the two main outcome on which we are in some out reference high-performance computing facilities for supporting that kind of research. Then their is in some situations they combinations of the performance a, capability of the Federation systems for addressing what will be the simulations of the overall human brain would take a lot of performance challenge simulation with bacteria that they would happen combining that they SPC facility as at European level. >> Right! So I was reading there's a case study by the way, on Cynic that Dell technologies has published. And some of the results you talked about, those that the HPC is facilitating research and results on epilepsy, spinal cord injury, brain prostheses for the blind, as well as new insights into autism. So incredibly important work that you're doing here for the Human Brain Project. One last question Sanzio, for you, what advice would you give to your peers who might be in similar situations that need to, to build and deploy and maintain high-performance computing environments? Where should they start? >> (coughs laughs) I think that at, at a certain point, that specific know how would became sort of a know how that is been, I mean, accumulated and then by some facilities and institutions around the world. There are the, the federal labs in US, the main nation model centers in Europe, the big facilities in Japan. And of course the, the big university facilities in China that are becoming, how do you say, evident and our progressively occupied increasing the space, that to say that that is somehow it, that, that, that the, those institutions would continues collaborate and sharing that there are periods I would expect off what to do, be the top level systems. Then there is a continuous sharing of uh knowledge, the experience best practices with respect off, let's say the technologies transfers towards productions and services and boosterism. Where the situation is big parenta, in the sense that, their are focused what it would be, uh the integration of the high-performance computing technology into their production workflow. And from the point of view, there is the sharing of the experience in order to provide the, a sort of, let's say, spreads and amplifications of the opportunity for supporting innovation. That is part of are solution means, in a Italy but it also, eh, er sort of um, see objective, that is addressed by the European options er supported by the European commission. I think that that sort of (inaudible) supply that in US, the, that will be coming there, sort of you see the max practice for the technology transfer to support the innovation. >> Excellent, that sharing and that knowledge transfer and collaboration. It seems to be absolutely fundamental and the environment that you've built, facilitates that. Sanzio thank you so much for sharing with us, what Cineca is doing and the great research that's going on there, and across a lot of disciplines, we appreciate you joining the program today. Thank you. >> Thank you, it's been a pleasure, thank you very much for the opportunity. >> Likewise, for Sanzio Bassini. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation. (calming music)

(light, upbeat music) >> The last decade of cloud computing introduced and popularized an operating model that emphasized, simplified IT infrastructure provisioning and management. As well, it ushered in an era of consumption-based pricing and much more facile IT management, generally. Now these principles, they've bled into traditional data centers, which have increasingly become software led, programmable and DevOps centric. Now as we enter the post isolation era, it's ironic that not only are IT executives pursuing hybrid strategies, but everyone is talking about hybrid. Hybrid work, hybrid teams, hybrid events, hybrid meetings. The world has gone hybrid and the cloud is no exception. The cloud is expanding. Public cloud models are pushing to the data center and the edge on premises infrastructure is connecting to public clouds and managing data workflows and infrastructure across clouds and out to the edge. Now most leading technology executives that I speak with, they're essentially architecting their own clouds. And what I mean by that is they're envisioning and building an abstraction layer that hides the complexity of the underlying infrastructure and manages workloads intelligently. The end customer doesn't know or care where the data is, as long as it's secure, properly governed, and could be accessed quickly, all irrespective of physical location. Now for the most part, this vision, it can't be bought off the shelf. It needs to be built by placing bets on key technology partners and leveraging the so-called API economy. In other words, picking technology vendors that I trust in programmatically codifying and automating where possible my organizational edicts and business requirements into my own cloud to uniquely support my application portfolio in my modern business processes, which by the way, are rapidly evolving. Now, a key to enabling this vision is optionality. Meaning, not getting locked into one single technology platform, but rather having the confidence that as technology evolves, which it always does, I can focus my energies on adding value to my business through process innovation and human capital growth. Hello, everyone and welcome to this cube conversation and video exclusive on a major new industry development and partnership that's designed to maximize customer infrastructure options and move the new era of hybrid cloud computing forward. We have two industry leaders joining us today. Monica Kumar is the senior vice president of marketing and cloud go-to-market from Nutanix, and David Farrell is the senior vice president and general manager for global strategic alliances at Red Hat. Folks, welcome to theCUBE. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to be here today. >> Thank you so much. >> All right, so Red Hat is the poster child for open source success and it's executing on a strategy based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux, RHEL and OpenShift, the industry's leading container platform, to drive cloud-like experiences. Nutanix is a pioneering company and was the first to truly envision and successfully bring to market a cloud operating model to data center infrastructure. So you two, are getting together and forming a deeper, more substantive relationship. So Monica, tell us about the hard news. What's the scoop? >> Yeah, of course. So, first of all, I'm so excited to be here with David Farrell from Red Hat and for those of you who may not know this, I have a very deep personal connection with Red Hat from my previous role as well. I've been working with Red Hat since the early 2000s. So it gives me great pleasure to be here on behalf of Nutanix and with David from Red Hat, to be announcing a formal strategic partnership to deliver open hybrid multi-cloud solutions. Now let me explain to you what I mean by that. This partnership that we're announcing today is going to enable best-in-class solutions for building, scaling and managing containerized and virtualized cloud native applications in of course, hyper-converged infrastructure environments. So the collaboration is going to bring together these industry-leading technologies. Enabling and integrating Red Hat OpenShift and Red Hat Enterprise Linux, onto the Nutanix cloud platform, which includes, you know, our well-known Nutanix AOS and AHV hypervisor technologies. Now the question is, why are we doing all this? It's because of, as you said, Dave, the rapid evolution of hybrid cloud strategies and adoption of containers and Kubernetes in our customer base to develop, deploy and manage apps. And what we're hearing from our customers is that they want this integration between Red Hat Technologies and Nutanix Solutions. >> Okay. Thank you, Monica. So big news David, from Red Hat's perspective. Okay. So Red Hat, Nutanix, both leaders in their respective fields. David, what spurred the decision to partner from your standpoint? >> Yeah. And listen, let me echo Monica's comments as well. So we're really excited about the partnership with Nutanix. And we're excited because Nutanix is the leader in hybrid cloud infrastructure, but we're even more excited because this is what customers have been asking us to do. And that's really at the core of the decision. I think both teams, both companies have been listening to customers and we've got a groundswell of enterprise customers around the world that are asking us to come together. Bring our technologies together from a certification perspective, which Monica spoke about, right, is number one. So RHEL and OpenShift being certified on top of AHV, right. To provide the best-in-class service for enterprise grade applications, but there's more to it than just the certification. Like customers are looking for a world-class integrated support experience as well as they go into, into production. So we also have integrated support, right. So customers can contact Nutanix, they can contact Red Hat and having that seamless, that seamless experience is really, really critical and something that our customers have been asking us for. And then we'll continue to work from a roadmap perspective as well, from an engineering perspective, to make sure that our roadmaps are aligned and the customers have assurance over time and continuity over time so that they can make investments that they know are going to pay off and be safe investments and scalable investments over the long arc of their technology horizon, so. So those are, those are kind of our view of why this is good for customers and back to your points, David, it's about choice and optionality, right? And choice and consistency, and I think the verdict is in now, in the industry, that hybrid is the future, right? Everybody kind of agrees on that, right? In certain applications and certain workloads are going to run on-prem, others are going to run on the public cloud, and customers need choice to be able to decide what's the right destination for those workloads. And that's what Red Hat's all about, that's what RHEL's all about, what OpenShift is all about, is that it runs on any cloud infrastructure. Now it runs on Nutanix HCI. >> So I liked that two, one virtual throat to choke, or maybe better put, maybe one virtual hand to shake. So David staying with you, maybe you could talk about some of the other key terms of the partnership. Maybe focus on joint solutions that the customers can expect and I'm particularly interested in the engineering collaboration. I know there's a go-to-market component, but the engineering collaboration and technology innovation that we can expect. >> Yeah. So there's a few components to it, David. One is, obviously as I talked about roadmap, right. And that's, you know, our technology teams coming together, looking at the existing roadmaps for RHEL and OpenShift, but also adjacent capabilities that are coming from the Red Hat portfolio and capabilities that are coming from our ISV ecosystems and our respective ecosystems. This is a big win for our partners, as well, that have been asking us to work together. So we'll continue to keep the radar up about what some of those functionalities and capabilities ought to be. Whether we make them or somebody else makes them to pull into the, pull into the strategy, if you will. The second big principle around joint engineering is going to be around customer experience, right. So for example, we're starting off with the agnostic installer and by the way, this is coming Thursday, right? I think we're live on Thursday, the 29th, right? So this is in market, it is GA, it's available today, the 29th, right. And then we will move to the, to the UPI- so sorry, to the IPI installer in the second half of this year, right. To provide a more automated experience and then I think on the Nutanix side, Monica can, can talk to this, that Nutanix is building APIs to also automate installation, right? So first and foremost, we're all about getting the solution and getting the jointly engineered technologies working together and providing a superior customer experience for our customers that are deploying Red Hat on top of Nutanix. And that's going to be the guiding, the guiding driver, if you will, for how we work together. >> Yeah. And let me add to that. Like you said, we are, the engineering is already bearing fruit for our customers, right. As of today, when we announcing, we already have certified versions of Red Hat Linux with AHV, number one. Number two, as you said, the agnostic installer is available. We will make the automated installer available so any customer can deploy OpenShift using the Nutanix cloud platform in the very near future, right. Those are the two sort of the beginnings of the engineering and this is going to, this is a longterm partnership, so we will continue to evolve the different configurations that we, you know, that we test and that we validate as well as we go on. So I'm really excited about the fact that we are going to be offering customers fully tested, validated configurations to deploy. (cross talk) >> Go ahead >> David if I may just in there as well, I mean, so that's on the engineering side, right. But there'll also be an important thing, customers expect us to cooperate in to engage proactively as we face them, right. So that both the Red Hat, part of the agreement is that both the Red Hat and the Nutanix field teams, right the customer teams, will also be enabled, right. We'll do technical enablement for our teams, stand up proof of technologies, right. So that we're burning in some of the technology, if you will, and working out the kinks before the customer has to, right. And this is also a key value proposition is we're doing this work upstream, both in the engineering teams and in the field engagement teams so that customers can get time to market, if you will, and speed of solution deployment. >> Got it. So we'd love to talk about the sweet spot, the ideal customer profile at ICP. So is there a particular type of customer Monica, that stands to benefit most from the partnership and the certifications that you're committing to? >> Yeah. I mean, if you look at, you know, cloud native app development, that's happening across all types of segments, but particularly, you know, enterprise customers running, in all industries practically, running tier one applications or building custom applications in the cloud would be a great focus for this. Our customers who are mature in their cloud native journeys and want to build and run cloud native workloads at scale would be another type of audience. I mean, when you really think about the gamut of customers we serve jointly together, it's all the way from, you know, mid-sized customers who are, who may want a complete solution that's built for them, to enterprise customers and even globals accounts that are actually doing a lot of custom application development and then deploying things at scale. So really, I mean, anybody who's developing applications, anybody who's running workloads, you know, database workloads, applications that they're building, analytics workloads, I think for all of them. This is a very beneficial solution and I would say specifically from a Nutanix customer perspective, we've had a demand for, you know, the certification with AHV and RHEL for a long time. So that's something our customers are very much looking forward to. We have a large number of customers who already are deploying that configuration and now they know it's fully tested, fully supported, and there's an ongoing roadmap from both companies to support it. And then as far as OpenShift goes, we are super excited about the possibilities of providing that optionality to customers and really meeting them at every level of their journey to the cloud. >> So you got the product level certifications, that to me is all about trust and it's kind of table stakes, but if I have that, now I can, I can lean in. What other kind of value dimensions should we be thinking about with regard to this, this partnership? I mean, obviously, you know, cost savings, you know, speed, things like that, but maybe you could sort of add more color to that. >> Yeah. Well, absolutely, look. I mean, anytime there's joint there's integration, there is complexity that's taken out of deployment from the customer's hands and the vendors do the work upfront, that results in a lot of different benefits. Including productivity benefits, speed to market benefits, total cost of ownership benefits, as you said. So we expect that the fact that the two companies are now going to do all this work upfront for our customers, they'll be able to deploy and do things that we're doing, you know, much faster than before, right? So that's, you know, definitely we believe, and then also joined support. I think David mentioned that, the fact that we are offering joint support as well to our customers we'll be problem solving together. So the seamless support experience will provide faster resolution for our joint customers. >> Great. David, I wonder if you could kind of share your view of you know, thinking about the Nutanix cloud platform, what makes it well suited for supporting OpenShift and cloud native workloads? >> Well, I think the, look first off, they're the leader, right. They bring the most trusted and tried HCI environment in the industry to bear for customers, right. And they deliver on the promises that Monica just went through, right, around simplicity, around ease of use, around scalability, around optionality, right. And they take that complexity away and that's what customers I think are telling both Red Hat and Nutanix, and really everybody for that matter, right. Is that they want to focus on the business outcomes, on the business value, on the applications, that differentiate them. And Nutanix really takes away a lot of that complexity for the customer at the infrastructure level, right. And then RHEL, and OpenShift and Red Hat do that as well, both at the infrastructure level and at the application level, right. So when it comes to simplicity, and when it comes to choice, but consistency, both Nutanix and Red Hat have that at the core of how we build and how we engineer products that we take to market to remove that complexity so the customers can move quickly, more cost-effectively, and have that optionality that they're after. >> Yeah and David, if I may add to that, and thank you again for saying the things you said, that's exactly why our customers choose us. One of the key factors is our distributed architecture as well, because of the way it's architected, the Nutanix cloud platform delivers an environment that's highly scalable and resilient, and it's well suited for enterprise deployments of Red Hat, OpenShift at scale. The platform also includes, you know, fully integrated unified storage, which addresses many of the challenging problems faced by operators routinely in configuring and managing storage for stateful containers, for example. So there's a lot of goodness there and the combination of Red Hat, both you know, RHEL and OpenShift, any 10x platform, I believe, offers really unparalleled value to our customers in terms of the technology we bring and the integration we bring to our customers. >> Okay, great. Last question, David, maybe you first, and then Monica, you can bring us home. Where do you guys want to see this partnership going? >> We want to see it going where, customers are getting the most value of course, right. And we would like to see obviously adoption, right. So, anytime two leaders like ourselves come together, it's all about delivering for the customer. We've got a long list of customers that have been asking us, as Monica said to do this, and it's overwhelming, right. So we're responding to that. We've got a pipeline of, of customers that we're already beginning to engage on. And so we'll measure our progress based upon adoption, right, and how customers adopt the solution, the shared solution as we go forward. How they're feeding back to us, the value that they're getting, and also encouraging them to engage with us around the roadmap and where we take the solution, right. So I think those are ways that, you know, we'll be focused on adoption and satisfaction around it across the marketplace and the degree of interaction and input we get from customers with respect to the roadmap. And Monica, how do you feel about it? >> Yeah. What's success look like Monica? >> Yeah, look, we all know that technology is a means to an end, right? And the end is solving customer problems, as David said. For us, success will be when we have many, many, many, joined happy customers that are getting benefit from our platform. To me, this is just the beginning of our relationship to help customers. The best is yet to come. I'm super excited, as I said, for many reasons, but specifically, because we know there's a huge demand out there for this integrated solution between Red Hat and Nutanix and we'll start delivering it to our customers. So we've been, we'll be working very closely with our customers to see how that option goes, and we want to delight them with this, with our joint solution. That's our goal. >> Thank you. Well, David, you kind of alluded to it. Customers have been looking forward to this for quiet some time, and number of us have been thinking about this happening and to me, the key, is you're actually putting some real muscle behind it as seen in the engineering resources. And you got to have that type of commitment before you really go forward, otherwise, it's just kind of a yeah a nice press release, nice party deal, this isn't. So congratulations on figuring this out. Good luck. And we'll be really excited to watch your progress. Appreciate you guys coming to theCUBE. Okay. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCube. We'll see you next time. (light, upbeat music)

>> Hello, everybody. Welcome to VeeamON 2021. You're watching theCUBE's continuous coverage of this year's event. My name is Dave Vellante, and as the saying goes, you can go faster alone but further together, and that observation is most certainly true in the technology business, and with me to talk about the importance of partners and ecosystem expansion and leverage are Daniel Fried, who's the senior vice president for EMEA and worldwide channels and Veeam, and David Harvey who's the vice president of Strategic Global Alliances at Veeam. Gentlemen, welcome to theCUBE. Come on inside. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Thanks so much. Thank you. >> So you're welcome. So Daniel, about 40 partners by my count did at VeeamON virtual this year. Wow. It's unfortunate we can't interact with them face to face, but part of the story here 25% ARR growth and partners, obviously big contributor there. Give us the update from your perspective. >> Well, yeah. So first of all, I think it's going to be much more than the 40 partners that are going to attend VeeamON, because it's a key event that we've had already for a number of years, and this one this year is going to be as huge as usual, even bigger, because it is all remote. So everybody can participate. Now going to the results of the company, it is entirely also due to the partners. All types of partners, because we are 100% partner-based. We are a travel company. So all our businesses go through the buffers to reach out to the end customers, all different types of partners. So I do thank very, very much all partners around the world, all types of partners, because they all participate to the success of Veeam software, and this fantastic 25% growth indeed. >> Yeah, so David that's pretty important when you send that message. I mean a lot of companies, a lot of tech companies, struggle with that. They have a heritage of direct sales, and they say, hey we're super partner friendly, and then they do a big reach around. You kind of clean that up from day zero, but maybe talk a little bit about your philosophy around partnering. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's been a core pillar, as you said Dave, of Veeam from day one, and we've been true to that message all the way through, and when you look at the rich ecosystem of the ProPartner Network that Daniel was talking about, and you also look at the way that we've embraced Alliances, not only from the technology integration point of view, but also within the go-to market position. It's just been a really rich experience for the Veeam field, the alliances and partner field, but more important for the customers, because they get the best of breed from both sides. They get peace of mind on supply chain, but fundamentally, and you touched on this point Dave, a lot of people talk about it in principle. We live it all day every day, and I think when you look at the rich experience that you're going to get from VeeamON, when you look at the fact that the Alliance partners have lent in as the premium sponsors. These are the biggest guys in the industry. It's just a testament to trust, and it's a testament to delivering value to the customers. >> How should we think about the sort of partner makeup, and I'm interested in particularly the perspective from EMEA, but I mean a number of the partners, the majority of the premier partners, for example, they're U.S.-based companies, but of course they have very strong presence around the world, and then of course within EMEA, Daniel, you've got a lot of local partners as well. How should we think about that makeup? The big whales, who account for, many, many tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars but as well the collective of the larger ecosystem. How should we think about that pyramid? >> Well, this is a fantastic question. I think that we have to go back into understanding what the role of partner is to reach out to the end customers, and because Veeam is selling to companies, which are very small ones, very small SMB customers all the way to the very large complex multinationals. We need partners who have these capabilities to address all those, and of course the number of companies around the world. It's hundreds of millions of them. To give you an idea, because of the partners, our coverage is more than a hundred countries. In other words, we sell to more than a hundred countries around the world, even in places where our Veeam presence, physical presence is not there. We need different types of partners depending on what is needed, what the customers are requesting, We talk about the popup neural network, but I would like to talk, to go even farther, and talk about an ecosystem, of business ecosystems, using the theme solutions and the Veeam technologies with the alliancers, with the STEM integrators, with the VAR, with the resellers, and with the service providers, with all different types of typologies partners, and it is not one unique way of doing businesses. So you've got huge companies, but you have a lot of small ones to be capable to sell to a mom and dad shop somewhere in the middle of the desert or somewhere around the world, but we also need to have competencies, because customers have requests that become more and more complex, because the world is becoming more and more complex from an IT perspective. So we need to have competencies, and this is what we try in this co-partner network software is to bring these competencies up to be capable through the partners to answer all the requests and all the needs of all the customers around the world. >> So, David, it's not just sort of generic. I mean obviously, as a 100% channel partner company, you're looking for volume and distribution, but as Daniel just said, there's competency. So what are some of the competencies that partners bring to the table? Maybe you have some examples that you can share. >> Yeah, absolutely. So if you look at a couple of different areas, what I would say is we look at this problems that customers are dealing with in two ways. One, they're dealing with the fact that they want a technology solution to something that they're dealing with today, and secondly, they want somebody to support them with a human workflow evolution that's going on with them today, and GSIs is a good example of that one. When you look at the work we're doing and the success we're having with the large global GSIs, what we're solving in that area is two things. Workplace optimization, huge topic at the moment, and secondly, the data center modernization, and what's happening as you go through that evolution is you're dovetailing together the workflows of their business. You're using data as a lifeblood to be able to be successful and relate to their share price, et cetera, but more importantly, you want to make sure that you're bringing into account both those sides. You can't just have a technology solution without an understanding of implementation, and you can't have a great concept without a solid solution to back that up. So that's where we dovetail together. The top alliances that are out there in the market with the top global systems integrators, and both of those combined solutions benefit everybody including the channel, but obviously more importantly, the customer, and I think when you look at that, the work we're doing with Accenture, with Capgemini, the work we're doing with guys like HPE and VMware and all these large thought leaders, that's where it's a really nice dovetail, and as we talked about before, because that's been the lifeblood of our organization from day one, it's a very harmonious experience focused on solving the customer pain. >> So I like that focus on solutions. I'm just thinking about workplace optimization. You think about remote work. I mean everybody's trying to figure out hybrid now. How do I get hybrid right, and of course you guys fit in. What's the right data protection model? Modernization. There's app modernization. Because of cloud, there's a rethink of how you protect data. Maybe it's additional layers, and then of course, I mean every time I look in the paper, there's another hit of ransomware or some cybersecurity attacks. You guys fit in there. There's this solution emphasis, which really dovetails nicely into the customer problem. Maybe you could talk a little bit about that, and the role that partners play and what role you play. >> The role that we play is I'm just here, and we complements response, cause it can be a very large extended answer, and with the role we play is I would say twofold. Just to try to be, to simplify as much as we can, as much as I can. One of them is to provide solutions, and this is number one. So Veeam is providing solutions to end customers through the partners. The partners, they have these competencies, which allow them to build solutions and services to answer the request and the needs of the customers. So this is the key thing. They generate the value add on top of our technologies, on top of our solutions, to meet what the customers request, and you're totally right, because we talked about the marketplace, we talked about a lot of things, but what is very important is we see more and more customers wanted to go to services. So not for themselves to manage the infrastructures, and their back up centers, and their back ups. They are everything which is needed to the security of the data, but to have it done by a potentially third party companies like the system integrators, like the cabin service providers, like all different types of companies, even some consultants giving advices on architectures, the neighborhoods, and all kinds of different services, which are built. I even had some partners that are now developing. We talk about containers more and more, and we have, sorry to be a bit technical here, but we have some partners of ours, obviously some larger ones, which are contributing what they call microservices, which is for this new generation of containers. So they are all developing services to meet the requests and the needs of their customers. There is a big focus at the end customers. So we provide the technology. They add value. >> Well, I don't think you ever have to apologize in theCUBE for talking tech. I mean you think about containers, and your acquisition of Kasten, the whole notion of microservices. Containers used to be ephemeral and stateless, and now they're becoming a fundamental application development platform, and they need protection. So I think that's an important area. We're going to dig into that in some other conversations in theCUBE. but your point, Daniel, about value add is critical. It used to be I call it box selling even though it's, the software's in a box, but it used to be okay I'm going to make some margin just reselling. Partners today want to add value. They just don't want to be a pass through, because they'll get disinter mediated. So that's important. I wonder if you guys could talk about some of the details of your partner programs. There's the ProPartner Network, and I'm very interested in the Veeam Universal License approach that you guys take. What kind of details can you share with us on those two things? >> Daniel, that's a good one for you. >> Right, okay. So what you call the Veeam Universal License, so this is part of the technology that we provide and the licensing that we provide. It's about recurring licensing model, which is totally agnostic. So in other words, it is the same types of licensers that customers can use for whether if they are hydrates, they go with an architecture, which goes to the heartbeat clouds, or any type of architecture or premise, so they can just move down action. So it's from one place to another place when they need it. So we give them the full flexibility with this licensing model to adapt to the new needs that they may have. So to influence that, they define an architecture, which is totally frozen, and then they cannot change it anymore. With us, with our technologies, with our licensing model, with our VUL licensing system, they have full flexibility, and this is a key differentiator for a lot of customers and obviously from our own competition. >> And my understanding is when you guys really started leaning into the ARR model, you actually were were pretty innovative in the way you kind of made that transparent, or irrelevant really, for your partner's sales channels. You guys set up front. We're going to... This is like no change. Go sell. We'll figure out the economics on the backend, and most organizations in your position don't do that. They try to micromanage the margin upfront, and it's sort of the finance guys running the spreadsheet or sort of determining the relationship as opposed to the relationship working backwards. Is that a correct inference on my part? I sort of got this from talking to some of your big partners and asked them, well, isn't that a real challenge when you shift to that model. They said no. Veeam just sort of made it all transparent to us and sort of aided at the backend or however you did that. >> So I think, Dave, that this is a very, very correct statement that you got from the partners, because it is not something which is new, and it is not only on this subscription licensing model What we always try to do with all partners is to have a consistent approach and a very transparent approach with the steps and move step by step to the next grade walls, to the next strategies, to the next ways of doing businesses with them. So the key thing to have a network of partners which works, which really develop and generates a good value add, it is the trust, and I think, I don't want to be too outspoken, but I think, and they can give us feedback, I think that we've succeeded year after year after year to build that trust with the partners, which means that we have the transparency. They just move along with the moves that we do, but our moves also come from them. So in other words, depending on what the end customers request, we help the partners to meet the requests of the end customers. So we help them develop more businesses. >> David, let me ask you something. So if you had 100$ to spend of resource, and you had to spend it on going deeper, sort of the existing partners or expanding the number of partners, and maybe even the quality of partners, and thinking about where IT is headed, Veeam's role in that, how do you allocate your time and your resources? >> Great question, and I think simple answer for me. You go deeper with what you have, and the reason for that is it's expensive, and it's about building trust, as Daniel said, and it's about making sure that the customer isn't caught up in the middle of it, and I think that's the really important part related to this as well. You said at the start of the conversation, Dave, with regards to the complexity, and the reality is there's multiple decisions going on right now. How do I adjust my infrastructure based on the needs of today? How do I look at the blend on hybrid cloud? What's going where, et cetera. How do I evolve into containers? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and I think when you go down that line, and you're presented with these titans of industry that we're looking at here with some of our premium alliances, et cetera, it takes a long time to make sure that you integrate. It takes a long time to make sure you'll go to market and pain-based statements are clear. It takes a long time to go through the trenches, to learn together so that the customer is the one that has choice, doesn't have to investigate the way that Veeam wants to do it or our alliance wants to do it or our partner wants to do it. It's about looking at the best solution for their pain, and I think from that point of view you can only do that with continual commitment. I mean we add to our program in all aspects, but you will see consistency. You'll see releases from day one of the company when we launched the product, with Alliances as an example. That consistency and investment is peace of mind. It's trust, but more important it's innovative, because you get to invest for multiple years moving forwards. So that ideally we can continue our philosophy of being just ahead of what the customer needs, while listening to them and working with their other parts of the IT infrastructure, because as you said from the start again, this is an ecosystem. This is not a singular component, and I think that's where it's really key to have a philosophy, which we have here in Veeam, which is double down with your friends, make sure you make it work, look to evolve as the market evolves with some extension, but you never forget where you came from. >> I like that answer cause it was something. It was kind of a loaded question, because when I talked to a lot of companies behind the scenes, one of their big frustrations is there's a push to get more, more, more, but in reality when they look at the productivity, it's like a snake swallowing a basketball. They got a few partners that are really productive, and then the rest, and they're spending all this time doing Barney press releases. I love you. You love me and dah, dah, dah, and nothing ever happens out of it. So when you approach a strategic partnership, why Veeam? So when you approach a strategic partnership, why Veeam? Pitch me on why I should spend my time with Veeam versus one of the many other competitors that are out there. >> 100%. I mean that's the great thing. We're programmed from a history point of view, and there's nothing better than when you're talking to a strategic partner, than to be able to say you've put your money where your mouth is. Secondly, that money is key. We invest heavily, and it is expensive. It's an expensive scenario. I mean our Alliances organization globally is almost 100 people, and it's a big investment position, because you've got to make sure that you've got the ability to balance out what both sides are looking for, and sometimes you do things that maybe aren't 100% in your best interest, but that's important to your partner and your alliance and vice versa, and so from that point of view, you've got history and proven position. You've got investment potential, and the capital to be able to build together, to move forward, and thirdly, it's about the execution, and that's not just your philosophy where I started. This is about the ability to turn concept into tangible, frankly benefit, which comes down to economics for both sides, and those three things together to me are the way that we've been so successful, in not only growing and maintaining our position, but also attracting new ones as we look to see the evolution of the IT market. Daniel, you may have a different view. >> No, no, no, no, no. No, no, I totally agree. I just would like to complement your part by two things. Two things are very much marketing related. We are number two now worldwide, as IDC mentioned it. So in other words, that means that customers like our technologies, our solutions. So partners are looking for making businesses with somebody who is trusted. Also we get customers, and number two, we have a big marketing machine, and that helps very, very, very much the business, through the partners all the way to the end customers. We always involve the buffers, always systematic. >> Sorry to interrupt. I saw some of that IDC data. You guys are number two worldwide, but am I correct that you're the number one, like pure play independent or am I missing something there? >> Number one. Yeah. Number one in EMEA. >> Right. So I always ask that, because a lot of times other people, it's like cloud washing. I could throw a bunch of stuff in my cloud numbers and say I'm number one in cloud, but when you talk about Veeam all your revenue comes from backup data protection. That's the pure play. We love the pure plays, because they're easier to understand, and even though you guys are a private company, you're more transparent than most private companies. So it's helpful as an analyst to really kind of gauge the progress. So, okay guys. Hey, we got to leave it there. Thanks so much for coming on and talking about the all important partner ecosystem. You guys have done a great job there. Congratulations, and I hear it from your partners and obviously the numbers prove it out. So great job. >> Thanks. Thanks for your time today. >> All right. You're very welcome, and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE's continuous coverage of VeeamON 2021, the virtual edition. Keep it right there for more great content.

>> Announcer: From around the globe. >> (upbeat music) It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Hi, welcome back everyone to the Cubes coverage of IBM Think 2021 virtual. I'm John Furrier, host of the cube. Got a great guest, Rick Smith, CTO of IBM Anthem client team. Rick. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on the cube. >> Yeah. Thank you, John. Nice to see you as well, virtually. >> First introduce yourself, what you do there, what's going on on your plate these days, honestly, COVID, we're coming out of it soon. Take a minute to introduce yourself. >> Yeah, so I've got about 15 years in the seat with Anthem. Previous to that I worked at Pretty university as the CTO in Indiana. So haven't really left, but started working with Anthem as a technical architect, eventually moved into the CTO role and have been part of, you know, a long journey with them that started at a managed services agreement in 2005. And here we are in 2021. So I've been through a lot of changes they've made to improve themselves and move into digitalization. And certainly the changes we've made too to accommodate that as we went through the years. >> Awesome. Well, thanks for that setup. I really want to dig into this expansion of project Cirrus. You guys have had a multi decade partnership with IBM and then last year you launched this expansion, project Cirrus. Can you describe this project? And what does it mean? And this new term I've heard, enterprise hybrid cloud as a service. Sounds very interesting. >> Yeah. So that's my term. I'm hoping you made it patent or something like that. But the reality is you hear our CEO talk and say that 75% of corporate workloads are not in the cloud yet. Right? And Anthem is no different, right? So they starting to go into cloud and those kinds of things. But they said to us, you know, "Hey, we've got a long series of excellence with you from a delivery perspective, reliability perspective is kind of the bedrock of what we do, but we don't want to be in the data center business, right? And we want to transform and move to cloud. We want to become a more of an AI company and these kinds of things. And we said, well, we think we can actually put together a program... Excuse me, program for you to allow you to do that, right? And so we formed something called project Cirrus which is really an expansion of our partnership. So if I look back, John, we did about 80% of the end-to-end delivery for Anthem from a managed services perspective. In other words, they did a few pieces and we said, we think we could improve that if we had the entire 100%. And so project Cirrus was about, you know, extending from 80% to 100%. It was also about taking a series of applications that were important to them and actually say, we'll actually take them on and transform them 100% all the way to cloud and take advantage of new things. It was about a commitment to closing those data centers, right? So they have five strategic data centers. And about 24,000 hosts that we said we will actually commit to getting those, you know, getting you out of the data centers and moving those to either IBM cloud or close to IBM cloud if you will, I'll come back to that in a minute. And we'll also build something called ATEC, Anthem Technology Excellent Center, if you will. And that's near and dear to my heart because that's sort of my baby, right? So it's a transformation engine and we can talk a little bit more about that in a second. But he said the key to this for us is that, if we look at our trend line, John, over the number of years with Anthem, when we started about 2007 looking at this data, we've grown the number of hosts. We've had to manage, over 600% during that time period. But we've driven down high priority incidents by over 90%. So think about that. You know, this is really important for them to have resiliency and stability in their organization. You know, huge acceleration number of hosts, but drive down the a P zero incidents, if you will. And they said, we need to maintain that and continue to improve upon that. Right? >> Yeah. >> So Cirrus was a commitment to take that further, right? Start driving AAN, AI into the operations, if you will in everything that we do. So Anthem is transforming to do AI and machine learning for their members. We're committed to transforming and doing the same kind of thing on our operational side if you will. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And I think one of the things that's interesting that jumps out at me just as you're talking, first of all super exciting that project you got out there, a lot going on to unpack, but let's do that. I mean, what I hear you saying which is getting me kind of all triggered in a good way is you got transformation going on and innovation same time. You're innovating with this new enterprise hybrid clouds of service concept. You take in more efficiency, you're doing the classic transformational things, making things more efficient, all that good stuff for agility, but it's actually innovative. So this idea of an enterprise hybrid cloud as a service is pretty innovative because now you're talking about things with AI and scale that come into play, right? So you got the setup, you got it moving into being innovative but scales right there. What is this enterprise hybrid cloud as a service? Because is it just agility, is it the AI piece? Where do you see that going? >> Yeah, that's a great question. Right? And you're a great stuff, man, Johnson. (Smith laughs) So again, Anthem's not ready to move all of their workload to cloud, right? And we recognize (indistinct)is going to be out of the data center business. So how can we take non traditional workloads, right? Get them close to cloud, right? Get them very close to cloud, get us out of the managing the data center and actually allow us to move seamlessly from non traditional workloads into cloud. And so what we did was something we think is very innovative. This is the enterprise hybrid cloud piece for me, right? 'Cause normally hybrid cloud says, you have a client data center location and you have cloud. We marry the two together. We said, you're not going to have a data center location anymore. We're going to have our data centers, you know, IBM cloud. And we're actually going to put some dedicated space right next to cloud. And when I say next to cloud, I literally mean within a few feet. And we're going to bring these non traditional workloads there, we're going to take the network operation brain and bring it there. And we're going to allow you then to basically be able to move seamlessly from that to directly into cloud and improve operations at the same time. There's other a side benefit to this too. The other unintended sort of benefit is that what any organization, right? That you find stuff in the data center that hasn't been looked at for a long period of time, right? Application teams haven't looked at it, et cetera, et cetera. We're literally touching every single host. Right? So this gives us an opportunity to also work with our teams and find things that really can just be thrown away. Right? And this is great because we're actually making them more efficient, optimizing the cost structures as we go about it. >> Yeah. I mean the operational model changes me. You mentioned that just that whole point about you're kind of doing some discovery on apps, this becomes kind of sets the table for AI ops which is just code word for day two operations or full cloud native environments, which now you're seeing cloud native include legacy. Yes. Because you can put containers into the mix and you can then create these integration points that you don't have to kind of get rid of the old to bring in the new. So the dimension of what's going on here is pretty interesting, right? When you start thinking about that, "Okay. I can modernize the same time as connect two existing systems." >> That's exactly right. And we put the things very close to one another. And if there's any concerns over data security compliance or healthcare regulated industry, of course, we can have the workloads located in the best location to ensure that security is in place. Right? So that's what's beautiful about it, right? We can kind of hit every layer that's possible from having it just as secure as completely privatized to going directly over to public cloud or connecting the two together as we go along. >> Well, you're definitely a pioneer. I love that enterprise hybrid cloud as a service. I think that's something that's relevant. We're living in a hybrid world. I mean, the cube, we used to go to events now it's virtual events, but when now the events come back, they're hybrid events. Every company is experiencing this phenomenon on hybrid something, not just technology. The ops got to adapt, so super cool. You mentioned something that was your baby. I want to get back to you. And you said you want to talk about, I want to just bring that up. This Anthem technology excellence center is your baby. ATech I think you said for short. >> Yeah. We call it Atech for short. And really, John, we said that it's got to be more than just taking that other 20% that we don't run today. And we're doing some very innovative things moving non-traditional workloads. Like I said, all that kind of stuff was very cool, right? But we need a transformation engine, right? And we need the ability to transform skills. Like upscale the people at Anthem as well as IBM, right there on the account team, it's a big account. We want to think of new ways to work together. Right? Traditional managed services is like, what? Someone cuts a ticket and says, "Give me X by her seat." Right? That's the traditional model. And we said, that's not good enough. We need to collaborate better together. And we are willing to redefining how we form our teams to work with Anthem. Right? So if we want to form, for example, a product ownership team that builds it, runs it, maintains it. And that team has Anthem plus IBM together. we're going to use ATEC as a vehicle to design that and drive it and make sure they have all the skills they need within that group to do that. Right? That's new ways of working together. And it's also to drive things like site reliability engineering, right? Cloud service management operations, make sure that Anthem has the right training, make sure we work together on these kinds of things. So it's really kind of an exciting thing. And it's intended to be a co-created model, right? So we actually work with the Anthem, we co-create using IBM garage methodologies and then the idea is to coast staff it, but it's tended to be a thin layer of world-class engineering. That's really the whole point of it. And yeah, I'm super excited about that. As you move forward, yeah. >> While you're speaking our language, the cube we'd love the co-creation we do with media. It's always fun to create content together. And sometimes in real time put it together like we're doing now. And it creates a bond. I mean, I got to bring this up because this is becoming more and more obvious. And now mainstream, the notion of co-creation, the notion of ecosystems and ecosystems really meaning network effect and integrating with other parties, right? Companies and our systems. If you look at the underlying business model as a systems management software bottle. Okay. So with that, these ecosystems, the network effect. If you build together, you stay together. I mean, this is a different mindset. It's different dynamic. It's a different relationship that companies are now looking for in what used to be called suppliers. Are you supplying something? Are you building together? Right. So this seems to be the theme. Can you expand on this new trend? >> Right. And get away from the strict racing, this person does, this person does that. Instead, we build a team together that has all the skills necessary and that team owns a product life cycle. They build it, run it and maintain it. And that's changing the way we deliver services from IBM perspective significantly, right? Because that's not our traditional model but that's what we're doing. So we're really out in the front end, on the front edge if you will. Changing that model completely. And it's one of the most exciting things for me, you know, as far as going forward. >> You know, this whole idea of partnerships has always kind of been there but now it gets modernized and uplifted if you will, to a new level. And it really is about watching each other's backs too when you have that kind of... 'Cause we're talking about like pushing the envelope on probably the biggest confluence of tech trends I've ever seen in my career. And I've seen many big waves, you know, from the different revolutions and inflection points. Now it's sort of all coming together, right? At scale too, it's happening very fast. I mean, the change over is happening in years that once you took decades before. So it's really is a team approach. >> Yeah. There's no doubt about it. And I see it every day in the work we're doing. And it's like, for example, at Atech where we're working with the data scientists at the Anthem, we're thinking of new ways to build things they've never done before. We're hoping to enable their science, enable the things they want to do for digitization standpoint, the same token I'm taking, you know, a data scientist and putting them on the operation side too. Right? So we're doing both these kinds of things together. And really I didn't say this before, but this whole thing is about driving automation, right? Driving down, no human touch, soft service, automation. That is kind of been the linchpin of this. And I also want to say John, that doing this all during a pandemic, you know, we signed our new agreement together with them at a quarter, at the end of March in 2020. And we went live in August 1st with all the changes, the extra 20% capacity to over 300 plus applications completely, started Atech from co-creation in a pandemic. And we both agreed as a company, I give great credit to our client and to the numbers involved that everyone set up front and during March. The pandemic's not an excuse to get anything done. So, we're going to go forward and make it happen. That's probably the thing I'm most proud about. That was just... It's crazy when you think of how big the project was and do pull it off during a pandemic. >> Yeah. There's going to be two sides of the street and this one, this pandemics over the ones who made it through and refactored and or innovated. Cause it's not just about being and having a tale, it's about taking advantage of the situation and the ones who didn't do anything. Whether they were in the cloud or not, that's not to me. That's not the issue of you're in the cloud you had an advantage. >> It's not. Right. >> But there's going to be two sides of the streets. And I think the one thing that the pandemic has shown us and I'd love to get your reaction as a final comment here is that when you pull back when the pandemic, it showed all the scabs, it shows everything. And you can see what's obvious and it becomes a forcing function. Necessity's the mother of all invention as expression goes so you can see what's worth doubling down on and you can see the productivity gains and that becomes clear. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's good and bad with everything, right? Pros and cons, like you said, and you know, one of the cons I think is the having to schedule all interactions is definitely a con, right? Because when you spend time not only with the client virtually but in person, you do get the advantage of having, you know, chalk talks and things like that. They're not scheduled. Right? So that's definitely one of the cons side, but one of the pro side is it did provide some focus, right? Kind of extreme focus and on what's important and allowed us to, you know, I think dove some bonds with the Anthem leadership team and the application teams doing it virtually over cameras like this that maybe happen at a larger scale than they might have normally been because the pandemic kind of allowed us to do that and made that happen. >> Great stuff, Rick, great insight. Great to have you on the cube as always. Great to talk tech, talk business, talk about the transformation and innovation and the cloud scale. Thanks for coming on Rick Smith, CTO of the IBM Anthem client team. Thanks for coming on the cube. >> You're welcome. Thanks John. >> Okay. Cube coverage of IBM Think 2021. I'm John. For your host of the cube. Thanks for watching. (soft music) (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, It's theCUBE, with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. Today I have a new guest, new to theCUBE, Madhuri Chawla. The Director of Strategic Partnerships for Enterprise Application Services, is joining me. Madhuri, it's nice to have you on the program. >> Thank you Lisa, very excited to be here. And hello everyone. >> So different this year again, virtual like last year, we're going to talk about digital transformation. We saw this huge acceleration in 2020 the massive adoption of SAS applications. We want to to talk though about IBM Managed Services for SAP applications. So before we get into that, I'd love for you to be able to describe what your role is to our audience. >> Absolutely Lisa, so good day everyone, I've been with IBM for over 23 years. And my current role, I run the strategic alliances for IBM basically in the ERP space. SAP being our primary strategic partner. I have a global team of architects and we basically look at market requirements, talk to a lot of customers talk to our business partner SAP obviously, you know try to help them with come up with a solution for their transformation journey to the cloud. And hopefully today, you know we'll elaborate a little bit more on the exact walk that we do in this space. So very happy to be here. Thank you Lucy. >> Sure, so we're going to dissect the IBM SAP relationship. I think you even worked at SAP before your 23-year tenure at IBM. So we'll get to some of that as well, but help us understand, customers have so much choice, each day there's more and more choice. Why should a customer choose IBM as their strategic partner for this digital transformation journey? >> Well, really IBM has been in this SAP business for many, many decades, as you know. We have many, many certified people in SAP, close to 40,000 people actually globally. And we can help the clients in various aspects of their journey. So, you know, the typical cloud journey has four different aspects to it. You will need the advice. So you need basically systems integration services to help customers actually define the scope on you know, what they actually want to either upgrade, bring it to current as well as you know what workloads they want to move to the cloud. We can help customers with our systems integration services called the Global Business Services in IBM. We can help them with their entire planning. We can help them with the actual move to the cloud. So IBM offers a whole different variety of services for migration. Well, not only just the SAP workloads, I mean SAP typically ends up being the heart of the workloads than any of the major customers run, but surrounding SAP there's a lot of other applications so we can help plan that entire journey for advice and then, you know move it as well as in the interim, you know there's also another step which can be some customers that need to build net new, and you know, upgrade their applications to the latest technologies. So we can help them with that. And then once the build and move is over, obviously customers need help with the actual steady state run state environment. That's where this key service that we have Managed Services for SAP applications helps them. So our certifications with SAP and the fact that we have consultants that are certified in all these different aspects of the journey, can really help your clients. The other part I would say that IBM is really a hybrid cloud provider. So obviously we have our cloud service the IBM Cloud, but we can offer this service meeting the customer where they need to be. So we are a client centric service. So if the customer has a choice of AWS or Azure we can meet them there. So this is how, you know we can really help our customers with our expertise. Another data point to note that, you know, 70, 80% of the enterprise customers still have not moved their workloads to the cloud. So this is a space, especially with COVID as you've seen what's happened. You know, customers now are really really looking to accelerate the journey because it's become a necessity. It's no longer something that a CEO and CIO can push to the right, right? This is something they have to act now. So IBM with all these various services specifically geared in the SAP area. And given that we've been managing these production workloads for a lot of these enterprise customers on our cloud services for many, many years we have the experience. We can truly help them with their journey. >> And as you said, that's so critical these days. One of the things that I think we learned in 2020 is there was no time like the present. It really became such a massive shift that for business survival, those that weren't digitized, definitely were in some hot water. But talk to me so you talked about the IBM, SAP relationship being longstanding. Can you talk to me about the different aspects of the alliance and how that helps you guys to meet customers where they are? >> Sure, so SAP and IBM, we've been strategic partners for over 46 years, that's a long time. The partnership obviously has evolved over the years and I'll talk about, you know, a few of the different aspects where we've been partners. You know, the alliance initially obviously started you know, IBM is in multiple businesses as you know, we are one of the largest systems integrators in the world From a global business services point of view. As well as one of the largest application managed services providers. So that's, you know, part of the alliance. Then we have our server groups, the power systems that IBM has. So that's another dimension of the alliance where you know, 5, 6,000 plus SAP clients even today are still running their SAP applications on the power systems, whether it's on-premise or also in some of the cloud deployment models. Historically, we also had obviously the database Db2 alliance, but now with the SAP's move to HANA. That's kind of little bit of a mute point, obviously it still exists but most of the clients are now obviously being encouraged really to adopt SAP's latest S/4HANA. From the services standpoint, the other facet is really around the cloud services. So that's really our topic today, right? In the cloud services area, we have alliances with SAP, very very strong alliances that have existed for you know, almost a decade now. As I said, we've been managing the production workloads for very, very large customers in many different industries, their entire supply chains HR financial systems are running on IBM, either in the old traditional hosting models or also in our cloud models for the past 10 plus years, right, as IBM has evolved. So we have made sure that we do a whole different types of certifications with SAP to stay current. Many of these certifications are done either, you know every two years, some are done every year. And if anyone checks, you know the SAP service marketplace website, which is owned by SAP you can see IBM listed in all these different angles as a certified provider. There isn't another provider that can claim this breadth in terms of certifications that IBM has done. And that's why customers can benefit either from one or two of these services that IBM provides or obviously a combination as a single vendor, if the customer needs. So, you know we have the sets we have the credibility, we have decades of you know, delivery excellence in these areas, servicing these clients. Lots of the Fortune 100 customers actually are running their SAP workloads on the IBM systems, whether in traditional hosting or in a hybrid cloud deployment. some cases we're actually providing services for customers that run their SAP workloads on-premise. So we cater to that, you know, sets of clients as well. And then of course, others that are purely on our cloud, IBM cloud, as well as hyperscalers. Yeah. >> So long list of certifications, that seems to be one of the biggest differentiators that you talked about. Talk to me a little bit about how things have evolved over the last, you know, 12 to 18 months in terms of how has IBM's focus changed for hybrid cloud with SAP? >> Yeah, so the focus changed, you know until last year, we were called the cloud and cognitive company. This year of course the whole company has changed and we're going through a major transformation at the moment. We are the Hybrid Cloud Company now, and that name change means a lot. It means a lot in the sense that it gives choices to the customer. That's what the whole mission is all about. We want to make sure that customers are consuming IBM services and IBM wants to meet them where they want to be. So there's, you know, flexibility of choices in terms of hybrid in a cloud deployment model. So most customers in the SAP area you know, they're looking for either just a pure private cloud deployment or they're looking for a Puppet cloud deployment or a combination. And some are because, you know their SAP's footprint sizes are so large. Think about the multinational global companies, you know and then they operate in so many different regions of the world and their data sizes of their databases are so large. Perhaps you know the public cloud really isn't a good fit. Yet these customers are looking to move some sort of their workloads to the cloud. So that's where this hybrid cloud helps them because customers, you know, 90 plus percent of the clients today are really not choosing one hyperscaler as their deployment option. They're really looking at multiple. So because they're running their workloads not just SAP, but everything else, you know SAP always brings along a whole bunch of other applications like tax applications and other interfaces, homegrown applications analytics that the customers are using. So if you want to take advantage of the true hybrid cloud and the benefits of all the various deployments and hyperscalers available in that region, really the hybrid cloud strategy from IBM is a perfect fit. Because we give them choices of deployment. We're not saying that you have to deploy an IBM cloud. We're saying you can deploy either on-premise, AWS, Azure IBM cloud, really what makes sense, you know, best sense for the types of workloads that the customer is looking at. So that's how the strategy for IBM has completely changed to meet the clients you know, for what they're actually looking for. >> Talk to me a little bit about the go-to-market. So IBM and SAP, long-standing decades-old relationship lot of certifications that you talked about. We're talking about business critical applications. You mentioned supply chain a minute ago and I can't help, but think of how supply chain has been affected in the last year. What is the go-to-market approach with respect to providing consultation services to help customers determine, should we migrate to what hyperscaler and how and when? >> Yeah, so we can help them with that. So hybrid hyperscalers, obviously, you know IBM has been listed for example, as the leader in Gartner 2020. And you know there's lots of other stats that show them that IBM is a leader in application services, in consulting services, application management services as well as managed services. So these are all different, right? And you can see us being listed as a leader either it's in Gartner or IDC or Forrester Wave, and for many reasons. And you know, IBM actually has one series of pinnacle awards from SAP over the years. How this helps the clients really determine is that you know, IBM obviously does a lot of studies externally. We have internal as well as external facing views of comparatives of the various hyperscalers, you know including AWS Azure or GCP and so on. So when a customer comes to us for asking for advice and so on, we basically look at our own intellectual properties all the analysis that has been done. And more importantly, we look at the full scope of services that the customer is doing. What sort of a business are they in? We have industry experts there's ERP strategy folks within IBM. So, you know, they go off for a certain industry. And when they let's say, you know, they've gone off to the oil and gas industry, for example, they will look at multiple customers in that particular space. So based on their experiences, we can actually define the right roadmap for the client to be able to help them to move their workloads to this hybrid cloud strategy that I just mentioned right? So that's how we can help them because we have the expertise in that industry as well. >> And I'm curious, Madhuri in the last year, with so much flux and rapidly changing market conditions did you see any one or two industries in particular really leading the charge here and coming to IBM, SAP for help on this transformation journey which hasn't been accelerated by a couple of years? >> Certainly the retail industry, for sure, right? I mean, in spite of the crisis I think the retail industry did pretty well right? Because people still had to buy stuff. Of course the whole buying behavior changed no question. You and I, don't know about you, Lisa but for me, you know, I was never a major online shopper now I am, you know I buy just about everything. Previously it used to be select things here and there but now it's totally changed, right? So that industry certainly has accelerated no question. We've had a lot of those coming. The other industries that I've seen the change in the last 12, 18 months is really for for example you know the banking industry and so on. IBM basically, you know launched a lot of services in the financial services sector for this reason. So those are of course transforming very fast to keep up with the market. And I'm sure there's others, right. But these are the two that come to mind yeah. >> Yeah, two that have been most affected and needed to pivot so quickly in addition to healthcare. Let me ask you one final question here, before we wrap. Talk to me about the advantages of using the PMC Partner Managed Cloud SAP License resell model the advantages of using that and the benefits. >> Sure, so you know so far our discussion was really focused around, you know the various service capabilities that IBM has in terms of our capabilities for helping clients with hyperscalers and hybrid cloud. We also need to spend a little bit of time, you know talking about the operations model, right? So when they're running their production workloads on IBM PMC is yet another dimension. So what PMC, Partner Managed Cloud is really some very limited partnerships that SAP does. And IBM is the lead on that one. In this space, what SAP allows is the partner, which in this case is IBM to resell the SAP software license to a customer. So IBM has the rights globally to resell the license. And why is that beneficial to the client? Because now IBM can actually turn around the SAP license and have the customer pay us in a SAS model. So it basically is now an OPEX model where the customer is basically paying, you know a monthly fee as an example. So there's no upfront cost to the client and they basically pay IBM and then IBM pays SAP. So IBM is kind of holding the risk, if you will, on behalf of the customer it gives customers more choices, more flexibilities better pricing approach. So if the customer wants as an example to buy everything the full package, including systems implementation services, deployment models, with choices you know, on a cloud, whether it's IBM cloud or others as well as the license itself IBM has this end-to-end capability today. We've been selling it to several clients for a few years in several geographies right? So that's really the advantage behind it. >> Got it, excellent, thanks for breaking that down Madhuri. And joining me today, talking about what's new with IBM and SAP, the opportunities for customers to accelerate their digital transformation. We appreciate you stopping by. >> Thank you very much Lisa, I truly enjoyed it, thank you. >> Good me too. For Madhuri Chawla, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE's coverage of IBM Think 2021. (upbeat music)

>> Narrator: From around the globe, it's the CUBE with digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. Brought to you by IBM. >> Welcome to the CUBE's digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. I'm Lisa Martin. Next Joining me is Leo LaBranche, director of Global Strategic Initiative at AWS. Leo, welcome to the CUBE. >> Thank you, happy to be here. So talk to me about AWS and IBM, what's going on there with the relationship? What are some of the things that are significant for both partners? >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, IBM's relationship really started with us around 2016, I would say it was a little bit more opportunistic at the time. We knew there was an opportunity to go to market together, we knew there were some great things we could do for our customers, but we hadn't quite cracked crack the code, so to speak, on, on when and where and why we are going to partner at that point. We fast forward into this sort of 2017 to 2019 timeframe. And we became, I'd say a lot more intentional about how we're going to go to market, where we are going to invest areas such as SAP, etc, we're an early one to be identified. And I'd say the ball really started rolling sort of in the 2018 timeframe, combination of a number of different things occurred, you know, the acquisition of Red Hat, obviously, you know, Red Hat is a very significant was a very significant partner with AWS prior to the acquisition. And so, post acquisition, you combine that with ramping up a workforce focused on AWS, combined with a number of different competencies that AWS or IBM really invested in, around migration as an example or SAP. And, you know, the ball really starting to roll quickly. After that, you know, I'd say the last 18 months or so, we both invested significant in the relationship, expansion around the world really, and joint resources and capability to make sure that we're going to market sort of partnered intentional way rather than sort of an opportunistic. >> Oh, go ahead. >> You know, as I was saying, so far, that's absolutely been paying off. In that we are seeing a number of wins all around the world across a broad set of industries, as well as a broad set of technologies. And so, you know, the strength of IBM consulting services in particular, but also their software, combined with the strength of our platform is really proven to be successful for our customers. >> So you said started in 2016, really started taking shape in the last couple of years, that Red Hat acquisition, talk to me about what's in this for customers, I imagine customers that are that are expanding or needing to move workloads into the cloud, or maybe more of a hybrid cloud approach. What are some of the big benefits that customers are going to gain from this partnership? >> Yeah, absolutely. In reality is, IBM has a long history and relationship with their customers, right? They run and manage many of the workloads. They really know the customer's business incredibly well. They have domain expertise and industry, and then the technology expertise from a professional services perspective to really help navigate the waters and determine what the right strategy is around moving to the cloud, right? You combine that with the the depth and breadth of the skills and capabilities and services that AWS provides. And the fact that IBM has invested significantly in making sure that their professional services are deeply steeped in our technology and capabilities. It's a great combination of really understanding the customer's needs plus the art of the possible, honestly, when it comes to technology that we provide, really can accelerate both and mitigate risk when it comes to moving to the cloud. >> That risk mitigation is key. So you guys recently AWS recently launched, I'm going to get this right Red Hat OpenShift service on AWS or ROSA, can you talk to me a little bit about ROSA? >> Yeah, so Red Hat, obviously, very well known and ultimately adopted within the enterprise. We have built a fully managed service around Red Hat on AWS. What that means is, you'll have access to essentially the capabilities that Red Hat would normally provide, but all containerized within a solution that allows you to have access to AWS services, right. The other benefit here is normally you would get sort of a multi vendor for invoicing and cost model, right. Where you get billed from Red Hat, get billed from Amazon, you get billed from IBM. In this case, it's essentially a holistic service in which there's a single sort of invoicing in vendor relationship, right. So the combination of capabilities that normally would be provided via Red Hat combined with access to cloud and all the interfaces and capabilities around OpenShift, etc, that you could do there. Plus a more interesting and beneficial commercial model. >> So streamline pricing models streamlined operating model for customers, talk to me about some of the customers that have adopted it. Give me a look into some of the industries where you've seen good adoption and some of the results that they're gaining so far. >> Yeah, absolutely. So no big surprise, right? The existing customer base that currently uses Red Hat Linux, and some of the options and OpenShift etc, that are out today are then the right customers to potentially look at this when it comes to moving forward. You know, industry wise, certainly their areas in financial services, banking, insurance, et cetera. We're also seeing some around manufacturing. A little so but some in media and Telco as well. So it's a broad swath, I mean, the applicability of Red Hat and OpenShift is somewhat universal, but the early customer basis has largely been sort of in those three areas. >> What I'm curious what the key target audiences are these Red Hat customers, are these AWS customers, IBM, all three? >> If there are existing customers that are currently using Linux or using Red Hat, if there are someone who a customer who currently has a relationship with either AWS or IBM, there's an opportunity to essentially look at it from any of the angles, if you're already on cloud, or you've already experienced AWS in some shape or form. There's an opportunity to potentially to leverage ROSA to further expand that capability and also have some more flexibility so to speak. If you're already using IBM as a professional services provider and advisory firm, then they absolutely have the expertise and understanding of this product set to help you understand how can you best leverage, right, so you can kind of look at it from either of the dimensions. If it's a customer, that's completely new to all of us, then we're happy to talk to you. But it's something that will definitely take a little bit more explanation to understand so why he should or shouldn't consider us with this multi cloud OpenShift type solution. >> Talk me from your opinion about why IBM for SAP on AWS, why should customers go that direction for their projects? >> Yeah, you know, SAP has or sorry SAP, IBM has over 40 years of experience and implementing SAP for their customers, right. And they've done I think it's over 6000 SAP migrations, 40,000 global SAP consultants around the world, right. So from a capability and depth of experience. There's a lot of nuance to doing an SAP implementation, particularly one that's then moving from on-prem to the cloud. You know, they got the experience, right. Beyond that they have industry specific solutions that are pre-configured. So I think there's 12, industry specific industry solutions pre-configured for SAP, it allows, you know, roughly 20 to 30% acceleration when it comes to implementation of platform. So combination of just depth of experience, depth of capability, combined with these solutions to accelerate, are all key reasons for sure. >> The acceleration you bring up, sorry, is interesting, because we saw in the last year, the acceleration of digital transformation projects and businesses needing to pivot again and again and again, to figure out how to survive and be successful in this very dynamic market in which we're still living. Anything industry wise specific that you saw that was really driving the acceleration and the use cases for ROSA in the last year? >> Yeah, so SAP, we saw an interesting trend as a result of what everyone's been experiencing in the last year with COVID and etc. You know, many organizations postponed large URP implementations and large SAP migrations, because of what you just said, right? They weren't entirely sure what would need to be done in order to survive either a competitive threats or more just the global threats that are occurring. So what we saw was, really none of none of the transformations went away. They were put on hold for a period of time, let's say six to nine months ago, maybe even a year ago almost. In lieu of, I would say more top line revenue generating or innovative type solutions that maybe were focused specifically at, you know, the changing dynamic with COVID. Since then we've seen a combination of those new ideas, right. Combination of the new innovation around healthcare, of course, but also public sector and, you know, a lot around employment and the engagement there. We said a combination of those new ideas and new innovations with the original goal of optimizing, transforming SAP, URP, etc. And then combining the two to allow access to the data, right, that sits inside the SAP implementation the SAP, combine the data then SAP with all these new innovations, and then ultimately use that to sort of capitalize on what the future business is going to be. That's been huge. It's been very interesting to see some organizations completely change their business model over the course of the last 12 months, in ways they probably had never intended to before, right. But it's absolutely become an opportunity and a time of a lot of challenges. >> Agree there are silver linings, and we've seen a lot of those interesting opportunities to your point that businesses probably would never have come up with. Had there not been a forcing function like we've been living with. Leo, thank you for joining me today talking to me about what's going on with IBM and AWS. We'll be excited to follow what happens with ROSA as it continues to roll out and we appreciate you joining us on the program. >> Absolutely. Thank you for your time for. >> Palo Alto branch, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the CUBE digital coverage of IBM Think 2021. (gentle music) (bright music)

>>From around the globe with digital coverage of IBM, think 2021 brought to you by IBM. Welcome to the cubes coverage of IBM. Think 2021. I am Lisa Martin today. I have Savio and Rodriguez here with me, the VP of integration and application platform Savio. It's great to have you on the program, >>Lisa, really great to be here. Thanks for having me >>Talk about automation integration. But one of the things that we're going to kind of break down versus is hyper automation. Gardner announced that about a year and a half ago was one of the top 10 things. It was the top 10 strategic technology trends of 2020. Well, here we are in 2021. Before we talk about automating integrations, getting IBM's perspective on hyper automation and what did we see in 2020? Like reality? >>Yeah, no great, great question. So, and IBM, we believe that the next tidal wave to hit organizations will be really the task, but frankly, the opportunity to automate the entire enterprise. And by that, I really do mean everything in the enterprise. So Gartner, when they talk about hyper automation, they're absolutely right, because they're focusing on automating business tasks, but IBM's point of view is broader than that. And so we want to think about the work that business professionals, it developers that it staff security, focus, administrators, all of that work. And we think that the real differentiation is going to come to organizations that attack the task of automating work for all three labor types, business developers, and it, so hyper automation focuses on the first labor type IBM's approach is looking at all three labor types. Now you should pick automation projects that are specific to one labor type to begin, right. Instead of saying let's automate everything, but the latter is the strategic statement. The former is tactical. Um, and, and w w we're seeing clients automating specific business processes, like order to cash, and then others are automating work of, uh, it had been such as reducing the number of security vulnerabilities found in production, and then others are automating the work of developers by automating the approach that they take to the integration life cycle. And that's what I'd like to talk to the audience about today. >>All right. So look how you talked about it in terms of prioritization. Cause that's one thing I think that businesses can struggle with in terms of making automation and eventually hyper automation successful is where do we start? Let's talk though about this application sprawl that every organization pretty much is living in. We saw this massive adoption of SAS applications and 2020, which we, a lot of businesses were dependent on to even facilitate just collaboration, but talk to us about the relationship between integration automation, applications. >>Another great question. So I spend most of my day thinking about integration, um, but I also know that most of my clients and probably the audience here thinks about automation first and then thinks about integration as a means, not the ends. The ultimate goal is digital transformation. I E delivering new apps faster with higher quality, if that's the case. And you think about what's an application today versus what will an application 20 years ago. So today there's definitely some business logic and code that you're writing, but the majority is actually integration logic. So you have to connect to a SAS service like Workday to get data, connect to an app that's running on AWS, get other data that's running on IBM cloud to transform it, put it into a different database that's running on Azure. So there's a little bit of application logic and a ton of integration logic. So if you're a line of business owner that controls 50% or more of it budgets, or you're a CIO, that's beholden to that line of business, um, and you want applications faster than ever before, and you don't want to sacrifice quality. How are you going to do that? Well, the way you do that is by focusing on the integration tier, because applications are really driven by integration today. So if you want a faster applications with higher quality, you really need to think about delivering integrations faster with higher quality. >>An integration is absolutely critical as we look at the hybrid cloud, the advance of AI organizations that are in this multi-hybrid cloud world, what are some of the challenges that they face with respect to integrating those applications? So to your point, you know, they can pull down data for Workday, align it with data in AWS, for example, to make business decisions in real time, >>One of the biggest challenges is manual effort, right? So we started the conversation thinking about automation and when we're coming back to it, because we believe that you have to automate your integrations and the way you do so is through AI. So you can of course use rules-based, um, automations. And that helps to some degree, but things get really interesting when you apply AI and the automation is driven by real world data. That's specific to your organization in a continuous feedback loop. We like to call closed loop and that's continuously driving efficiency. So if you think about the integration life cycle, you've got to create an integration, test it, socialize, it operated governance. That's what we mean by automating integrations, that whole life cycle. So for instance, if you can create an integration flow and do a field mapping based on AI, best practices, you reduce manual effort, you reduce coding, you reduce the need for integration experts, or if you're a business user, and you're able to describe your intent and you have your integration software handle, um, converting that intent into university that's required. >>So for instance, if you could say, generate a lead score and wrote the leads based on location, um, to your sales team, well, you know, what, what you're trying to achieve, why not get the software to do that for you based on AI, under the covers, or if you're doing testing, um, how about letting the AI generate hundreds of new tests for your integrations that reflect real world usage behavior at your specific company. And these tests are based on other APIs that are running at your company. So we take the operational data. We know what's, uh, which parts of the APR are being exercised. We know what data is going through your system. So things that are, for instance, personally, identifiable shouldn't be used as test data, right. Or if you're operating your integrations and wouldn't it be great if your AI could uncover optimizations in the integration flow, such as adding, adding in, um, maybe buffering to a message queue so that it prevents you from, uh, overages on your Salesforce account and having that happen without needing a human in front of a dashboard. I E the AI under the covers is doing this for you. So for AI to really drive that integration automation, you need the operational data, um, from your specific company and using that in a closed loop fashion. So you're continuously improving, not just your current integrations, but your future integration. >>I can only imagine how much more important this has been become in the last year as businesses and industry we're pivoting multiple times to survive. And then ultimately thriving. When I think of integrations, I think of customers that I've spoken to, who you get the right example with perspective sales, they've got a CRM, they're got an ERP and they're not in sync and not integrated so that I can't, there's no one system of record. I can only imagine how much more important having that system of record has been in the last year for supply chains, even for demanding consumers going, can I get some toilet paper? And if so, where can I find it? >>I absolutely. And this is where that notion of a closed loop, um, approach to integration and the automation via AI comes in, right? So we strongly feel that today, this is the time the clients need to rethink their integration strategy. And we do agree with some of the other analysts and vendors that are talking about automating the integration work, and that's part of what we've discussed earlier. And that's definitely necessary, but it's not sufficient. Right. Go ahead. Sorry. Sorry. Well, yeah. So our feeling here is that you also have to be thinking about evolving those integrations in a closed loop fashion. So you're continuously making those integrations better, uh, with AI that's powered by your operational data, that's specific to your company. And then finally that the, you know, the old approach that integration vendors used to have in terms of this style of integration fits all problems, is the wrong approach. And instead, what we start seeing today is that customers are using multiple forms of integration to solve a specific business problems. So they're using CAFCA API APIs messaging iPad. So from an IBM standpoint, we feel that every integration must be automated closed loop. And Multistyle with AI, that's informed by your company specific data to continue to improve so that you end up getting integrations faster, but that, they're also better >>When, when companies have that spectrum of different integration processes, as you just mentioned, one of the things that I kind of think is as we look forward, and you mentioned this a minute ago, wanting to have the foundation so that not only are applications integrated today and communicating well and sharing data, but in the future. So talk to me about this closed loop system that you mentioned, and how does that enable an organization to establish that now, but be able to take on applications that are not even created yet, >>But that's really a foundational aspect that clients need to be thinking about, right? Because the closed loop nature of thinking of your integrations means that you're always looking at operational data and using that operational data and feeding it into your AI to improve your business processes, your integrations today, but also the ones that you're going to be delivering in the future. Right? So I'm sure your listeners are sitting here thinking, you know, where should I get started? Um, and frankly for me, I turn it around and say, you probably should ask your integration vendor of choice, how effectively their solutions can provide an automated closed loop and multi-step approach to integration. And if the answer that they give you, isn't very detailed, but I hope you'll ask IBM. And when you ask us this question, what you're going to hear about is IBM's cloud pack for integration, which is our, uh, our complete platform for automated closed loop. >>And multicell integrations. It's optimized for deployment across clouds, with red hat OpenShift. And with IBM, you'll be able to use natural language powered integration flows, uh, AI powered flow and field mapping, RPA conductivity, things that really take the manual effort of integration out and replace it with AI driven, um, automation. Um, second, you want to think about the data that's feeding the AI, right? So this is where the operational, um, closed loop aspect comes into play. Sometimes the other vendors in the space are taking, um, operation data from hundreds of, of, um, customers and putting it together and coming out with the average and using that to train the AI. We don't think that's the right approach because your most important, uh, integration processes are shared by no other customer, right? So you want your operational data to feed the AI. That's providing things like field mapping, flow creation, creating the API tests automatically, or the uncovering, the inefficiencies that are running in your, um, your production environment. >>Um, and then finally, would I be able to tell you is we've got the broadest set of integration capabilities of a Multistyle integration capabilities, all delivered with a common UI and shared reuse and governance with unified management across clouds. And that's exactly what clients need, because if you think about where are you deploying applications today, the composers are running on multiple clouds, so you have to integrate across clouds. And then finally, what you hear from us is that IBM provides a proven hybrid and DMC ready security gateway. That's never been hacked in 15 years, over 30,000 TPS for second, but the performance and security that frankly clients need for their applications today. So automated closed loop. Multistyle, you'll hear me repeat those over and over because we feel that's absolutely necessary for, for, um, listeners when they think about their next generation applications and the integrations that we required for them. >>Excellent. Well, Sophia, I wish we had more time, but thank you for sharing. What's going on with audit, uh, in automating integrations, AI, what hyper automation means kind of where it is. Now we look forward to hearing more about this and I'm sure the guests will be excited to see what comes at IBM. Think we thank you for your time. >>Thank you very much >>For Savio Rodriguez. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching the cubes coverage by IBM. Think 2021.

>>From around the globe. It's the queue with digital coverage of IBM. Think 20, 21 brought to you by IBM, welcome back to IBM. Think 2021. And we're going to dig into the intersection of finance and business strategy. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of IBM. Thinking with me is Brian Hoffman is the chief operating officer of IBM global financing. Brian, thanks for coming to the cube today. Good morning. Great to be here. Hey, good morning. So I think we've heard a lot about the impact of hybrid cloud AI, digital transformation, and I wonder as a finance person and a former CFO, what do you see and how do you think about some of the key considerations in financials and strategies that are supporting these major projects? Right. We've got to come to the CFO and say, Hey, we want to spend some money and here's the benefit. Here's the cost? How can CEOs and their teams work with CFOs to try to really accelerate that digital transformation? >>Right, right. Great question. And actually that question, I think I might've answered it a little bit differently. Like two years ago, a year ago before the pandemic, I think it's actually changed a little bit with the pandemic. Um, in, in my experience as a CFO, people would come into me for projects and there was three ways that you could justify it, right? You can justify short-term immediate quick payback kind of hitters. You can justify it with, um, you know, improving our efficiency or effectiveness, um, you know, reducing costs in the long run or making the client experience better or more from a strategic point of view. Um, you know, uh, growing revenue, getting to new clients, uh, improving margins, right? And so the, the hybrid cloud transformation journey really still addresses those three things. And when we come in, a lot of people focus, like you said, on that third strategic point. >>Uh, but, but all three of those come into play. And what's really interesting now is as I'm dealing with it, I'm talking to other CFOs. Uh, the pandemic is really, if you will throw in a wrinkle in here, right? So the, the, the clients that I'm talking to the IBM clients, they have to operate their business very differently. And, and their business models, some of them are changing. Clearly their clients, their business models are changing. They're operating differently as well. Um, so, so our clients have to react to that and hybrid cloud, and that, that, that type of a, of a structure really can support that. So there's really an emphasis here now to act with much more speed on this journey to get moving on it, to get there, because you have to make these changes and doing those two things in concert really has a ton of business value. >>Yeah. I mean, the CFOs that I've talked to and the CIO is it's really kind of industry dependent, right. If you're an airlines or hospitality, it was like, yeah, we got to cut costs. A lot of organizations said, okay, we're going to support remote workers, put in VDI or deal with end point security or whatever it was, but we're actually going double down on our digital transformation. This is where we're going to lean in. There's an opportunity for us to come out stronger. How did you guys approach it in terms of your own internal digital transformation? >>Yeah, we, we, um, we were working on our digital transformation, uh, you know, a little bit before the pandemic and it kind of followed those, those three, uh, those three items when they, when they first started implementing it, they came in and said, Hey, if we can, if we can move to a cloud, uh, platform, our infrastructure savings will be pretty significant. You know, the it infrastructure savings will be 30 to 40%. So, you know, quick payback, CFO types love that. So, you know, we went forward with that. Um, but then quickly we saw the, the real benefits of moving to a, a hybrid cloud strategy. So just as an example, as we were making some of these changes, we found a workflow tool in one of our markets in Europe. That was a great tool. And, uh, if we wanted to implement that across the business, um, in the old days, you know, we're in 40 countries, we've got 2,500 employees, three lines of business. >>It would have been very complex cause our, our operating structure is, is very robust, very complex. Um, it probably would've taken us a year, two years to do that, but since we are now on a cloud platform, we got that rolled out that workflow tool rolled out across our business in months saving, you know, 20 to 30% of, of workload being much more efficient in getting to our clients and reacting quilted with them. And in fact, that tool got adopted across IBM because that cloud platform enabled that to happen. And then the great thing, which I didn't even realize at the time, but now thinking more strategically, um, our, my it resource earlier was running at about 50, 50, 50 people were working on maintenance. He kind of thinks we 50 on development as we've now transitioned to this cloud, my it resources now 70 plus percent dedicated to new development. So now we can go attack new things that really provide customer value in the pandemic. You know, the first thing you look at is can we get into more, um, you know, electronic contracts, e-signatures things that, that would provide value to customers anyway, but in the pandemic is like really, uh, a significant, uh, no differentiator for us. So, so all those things were enabled by that, that, uh, journey that we've been taking. >>I know most of the CFO, in fact, every CFO I know of a public company took advantage of, you know, cheap debt and improving their balance sheets. And, you know, liquidity is not the problem today, especially in the tech industry. Uh, and at the same time, you know, I'm interested in how companies are using financing. They don't want to necessarily build out data centers, but they do want to fund their digital transformation. So what are you seeing in terms of how your customers are using financing? You know, what's the conversation, like, what advice are you giving? >>Yeah. So, um, you know, it, it depends a little bit on the type of customer, like you said, you know, we, we deal with a lot of the biggest strongest customers in the world. And, and as, as we deal with them, financing really helps the return on their investment, right. Aligning the payments of those cash flows for when they're getting the benefits. Uh, and, and we see a real good value in improving the return on those investments and helping, you know, if it's something that's going to go to the board, that really makes a difference to them. Uh, so you know, that that's always been a value proposition. It continues to be, um, the other thing that's helped them now, like you said, is, is even in this environment, people want to accelerate this transition. Um, but it's a, it's a, it's a big time of uncertainty. >>So, you know, some of the smaller clients, some of the more, uh, um, you know, the industries that are a little more cash, constrained airlines, et cetera, you know, they're looking for the, the immediate cashflow benefits. Um, but many of the C F O is, you're saying, Hey, listen, you know, I can, I want to go as fast as I can help me put together a structure that lets me, you know, get this in place as quick as possible. Uh, but not blow my budgets, not make me take too much risk in this time of uncertainty, uh, but keeps me moving. And I think that's where financing really comes in as well. Um, and we're, we're kind of talking much more about that value proposition than just if you will, the improved ROI proposition that we've had all along. >>I want, we can talk a little bit more about IBM global financing. I mean, people may have a lot of times people misunderstand it. You know, when you look at IBM's debt, you gotta, you gotta take out the, the piece that I've hit in global financing, because that's a significant portion and that's sort of self, you know, self fulfilling. Uh, but what do people need to know about, uh, IBM global financing? >>We actually run three different businesses, uh, and we've been transforming our strategy over time. So, you know, right now with, with, uh, IBM being all in on hybrid, we are very focused on helping IBM and IBM's clients on this digital journey on IBM growing their revenue. Um, you know, we, we, in the past had been more of, if you will, the full service, it finance are doing a lot more than just IBM, but we are really focused now on, on helping IBM. So I think the best thing for, for IBM clients to know is as you're talking to IBM about the total solution, that total value prop, that IBM brings that financing, that cashflow solution should be embedded in what they're looking at and can provide a lot of value. Um, you know, the second thing I think most people know is we provide, uh, financing for IBM's channels. >>So, you know, distributors, resellers, et cetera, if you're an IBM distributor or reseller, you know, about us, because just about a hundred percent of IBM's partners use us to provide that working capital financing. Uh, you know, we ha we have state-of-the-art platforms. We're, we're, uh, we're just so integrated with them. Again, I don't have to, I don't have to be a sales pitch on that because they all know us. Um, and the third one, just because people might not realize this is we do have an, we call it an asset recovery business. Um, it's a pretty small business, you know, springing back equipment that comes off lease or that, uh, is used by IBM internally. Um, and while, you know, it's not, it's not, uh, as well known, I'm pretty proud of it because it really does help with the focus that the world that IBM has on sustainability and reuse and, um, and making sure that, that, you know, we're, we're treating the planet fairly here, so that that's a, a small but powerful piece of our business. >>Well, you're quite broader than leasing mainframes in the eighties. That's for sure. So talk a bit more about, let me give you a double click on that sort of hybrid cloud and obviously machine intelligence is a big piece of those digital transformation. So, so how specifically are you, are you helping clients really take advantage of things like hybrid cloud? >>So, yeah, so, um, what we have typically have been doing, and I can, you know, give you a couple different examples if you will, you know, for, for larger clients, what we tend to be doing is helping them, like I said, accelerate their business. So, um, you know, they're looking to modernize their applications, uh, but they still have a big infrastructure in place. And so they'll run into, uh, you know, budget constraints and, and, you know, cash is still be careful advantage. So for them, we are much more typically focused on, on, you know, if you will, project based financing that allows those cash flows, uh, to line up with the savings. Again, those are tend to be bigger projects that often go to boards that return, uh, benefit is very important, uh, a little bit different value proposition for more, uh, mid-market customers. So, you know, uh, as I was kinda just looking recently, we have a couple of different customers like form engineering, um, or, or Novi still there, there are two smaller, uh, compared to some of the other customers we use, uh, they are again, much more focused on, on how do I, how do I conserve and best use my cash immediately. >>Uh, but they want to get this, they want to get this transformation going. So, uh, you know, we provide flexible payment plans to them, so they can go at the rate and pace that they need to, they can align up those cash flows with their budgets, for their business cycles, et cetera. So again, we're, we're smaller customers where timing of the cash flow in their business cycle is very important. We provide that benefit as well. >>You know, I wonder if I could ask you, so you remember, of course, the early days of, of public cloud, one of the first tailwinds for public cloud was the pen was not the pandemic, the, uh, the, the, the, the financial crisis of 2007. And a lot of CFOs said, okay, let's shift to, uh, to an OPEX model. Uh, and now you could always provide financial solutions to customers, but it seems like today, you know, when I talk to clients, it's, it's much more integrated. It's not just the public cloud, you can do that for on premises. And again, you always could do that, but it seems like there's much more simpatico, uh, in the way in which you provide that, that, that solution. >>Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And this might be a little too finance geeky, I don't know, but if you go back, well, if you go back to the financial crisis and all that, and at that time, um, a lot of people were looking to financing for you called it, but, you know, if a CFO is talking about off balance sheet transaction, right. Um, and, and, you know, between regulation, et cetera, et cetera, that, that balance sheet thing, first of all, are seeing through it that much more clearly. But second, you know, the, the, uh, financial disclosure say, you kind of have to show that stuff. So that, that if you will, window dressing benefit has gone away. So now, which is great for me, we really get to talk about what's the real benefit. What is the, you know, what is the real benefit of, you know, you, you want to make sure that you have known timed, uh, expenditures, you know, that if your business grows, that, that your, your expenses can grow evenly with those, with that business growth, you don't have to take big chunky things. And so, you know, uh, financing under the covers of an integrated solution, and IBM has a lot of those integrated solutions allows businesses to have that, you know, known timing, known quantities, most of the benefits that people were looking for from that op ex cloud model, um, without, you know, some of the, the, uh, the problems that you have when you try to have to go straight to a public cloud for very, you know, big sensitive businesses, confidential, confidential, uh, data, et cetera. >>Right. Thanks for that. So, okay. We're, we're basically out of time, but I wonder if you could give us the bumper sticker or key takeaways, maybe you could summarize for our audience. >>Yeah. If for those that know, uh, IBM global financing or dealing with IBM, my view would be, uh, in the past, we, might've been a little more, you know, uh, out there with our own, with our own banner, et cetera, in the future. I think that, that you should expect to see us very well integrated into anything you're doing. I think our value prop is clear and compelling and, and, and will be included in these hybrid cloud transformations to the, to the benefit of our clients. So, uh, that's, that's our objective and, and we're well on our way there, >>Great. Diane work anywhere. I'm going to go for more, more familiar, obviously. ibm.com. You've got some resources there, but there was there any.com >>There's, there's a, I think you just probably a slash financing, but yeah, there's, it's loaded with information. Yeah. >>Excellent. Brian, thanks so much for coming to the cube. Really great to have you today and appreciate the time. Yeah, my pleasure. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante for the cube and our coverage of IBM think 20, 21, the virtual edition, right back.

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is Breaking Analysis with Dave Vellante >> The latest Arm Neoverse announcement further cements our opinion that it's architecture business model and ecosystem execution are defining a new era of computing and leaving Intel in it's dust. We believe the company and its partners have at least a two year lead on Intel and are currently in a far better position to capitalize on a major waves that are driving the technology industry and its innovation. To compete our view is that Intel needs a new strategy. Now, Pat Gelsinger is bringing that but they also need financial support from the US and the EU governments. Pat Gelsinger was just noted as asking or requesting from the EU government $9 billion, sorry, 8 billion euros in financial support. And very importantly, Intel needs a volume for its new Foundry business. And that is where Apple could be a key. Hello, everyone. And welcome to this week's weekly bond Cube insights powered by ETR. In this breaking analysis will explain why Apple could be the key to saving Intel and America's semiconductor industry leadership. We'll also further explore our scenario of the evolution of computing and what will happen to Intel if it can't catch up. Here's a hint it's not pretty. Let's start by looking at some of the key assumptions that we've made that are informing our scenarios. We've pointed out many times that we believe Arm wafer volumes are approaching 10 times those of x86 wafers. This means that manufacturers of Arm chips have a significant cost advantage over Intel. We've covered that extensively, but we repeat it because when we see news reports and analysis and print it's not a factor that anybody's highlighting. And this is probably the most important issue that Intel faces. And it's why we feel that Apple could be Intel's savior. We'll come back to that. We've projected that the chip shortage will last no less than three years, perhaps even longer. As we reported in a recent breaking analysis. Well, Moore's law is waning. The result of Moore's law, I.e the doubling of processor performance every 18 to 24 months is actually accelerating. We've observed and continue to project a quadrupling of performance every two years, breaking historical norms. Arm is attacking the enterprise and the data center. We see hyperscalers as the tip of their entry spear. AWS's graviton chip is the best example. Amazon and other cloud vendors that have engineering and software capabilities are making Arm-based chips capable of running general purpose applications. This is a huge threat to x86. And if Intel doesn't quickly we believe Arm will gain a 50% share of an enterprise semiconductor spend by 2030. We see the definition of Cloud expanding. Cloud is no longer a remote set of services, in the cloud, rather it's expanding to the edge where the edge could be a data center, a data closet, or a true edge device or system. And Arm is by far in our view in the best position to support the new workloads and computing models that are emerging as a result. Finally geopolitical forces are at play here. We believe the U S government will do, or at least should do everything possible to ensure that Intel and the U S chip industry regain its leadership position in the semiconductor business. If they don't the U S and Intel could fade to irrelevance. Let's look at this last point and make some comments on that. Here's a map of the South China sea in a way off in the Pacific we've superimposed a little pie chart. And we asked ourselves if you had a hundred points of strategic value to allocate, how much would you put in the semiconductor manufacturing bucket and how much would go to design? And our conclusion was 50, 50. Now it used to be because of Intel's dominance with x86 and its volume that the United States was number one in both strategic areas. But today that orange slice of the pie is dominated by TSMC. Thanks to Arm volumes. Now we've reported extensively on this and we don't want to dwell on it for too long but on all accounts cost, technology, volume. TSMC is the clear leader here. China's president Xi has a stated goal of unifying Taiwan by China's Centennial in 2049, will this tiny Island nation which dominates a critical part of the strategic semiconductor pie, go the way of Hong Kong and be subsumed into China. Well, military experts say it was very hard for China to take Taiwan by force, without heavy losses and some serious international repercussions. The US's military presence in the Philippines and Okinawa and Guam combined with support from Japan and South Korea would make it even more difficult. And certainly the Taiwanese people you would think would prefer their independence. But Taiwanese leadership, it ebbs and flows between those hardliners who really want to separate and want independence and those that are more sympathetic to China. Could China for example, use cyber warfare to over time control the narrative in Taiwan. Remember if you control the narrative you can control the meme. If you can crawl the meme you control the idea. If you control the idea, you control the belief system. And if you control the belief system you control the population without firing a shot. So is it possible that over the next 25 years China could weaponize propaganda and social media to reach its objectives with Taiwan? Maybe it's a long shot but if you're a senior strategist in the U S government would you want to leave that to chance? We don't think so. Let's park that for now and double click on one of our key findings. And that is the pace of semiconductor performance gains. As we first reported a few weeks ago. Well, Moore's law is moderating the outlook for cheap dense and efficient processing power has never been better. This slideshows two simple log lines. One is the traditional Moore's law curve. That's the one at the bottom. And the other is the current pace of system performance improvement that we're seeing measured in trillions of operations per second. Now, if you calculate the historical annual rate of processor performance improvement that we saw with x86, the math comes out to around 40% improvement per year. Now that rate is slowing. It's now down to around 30% annually. So we're not quite doubling every 24 months anymore with x86 and that's why people say Moore's law is dead. But if you look at the (indistinct) effects of packaging CPU's, GPU's, NPUs accelerators, DSPs and all the alternative processing power you can find in SOC system on chip and eventually system on package it's growing at more than a hundred percent per annum. And this means that the processing power is now quadrupling every 24 months. That's impressive. And the reason we're here is Arm. Arm has redefined the core process of model for a new era of computing. Arm made an announcement last week which really recycle some old content from last September, but it also put forth new proof points on adoption and performance. Arm laid out three components and its announcement. The first was Neoverse version one which is all about extending vector performance. This is critical for high performance computing HPC which at one point you thought that was a niche but it is the AI platform. AI workloads are not a niche. Second Arm announced the Neoverse and two platform based on the recently introduced Arm V9. We talked about that a lot in one of our earlier Breaking Analysis. This is going to performance boost of around 40%. Now the third was, it was called CMN-700 Arm maybe needs to work on some of its names, but Arm said this is the industry's most advanced mesh interconnect. This is the glue for the V1 and the N2 platforms. The importance is it allows for more efficient use and sharing of memory resources across components of the system package. We talked about this extensively in previous episodes the importance of that capability. Now let's share with you this wheel diagram underscores the completeness of the Arm platform. Arms approach is to enable flexibility across an open ecosystem, allowing for value add at many levels. Arm has built the architecture in design and allows an open ecosystem to provide the value added software. Now, very importantly, Arm has created the standards and specifications by which they can with certainty, certify that the Foundry can make the chips to a high quality standard, and importantly that all the applications are going to run properly. In other words, if you design an application, it will work across the ecosystem and maintain backwards compatibility with previous generations, like Intel has done for years but Arm as we'll see next is positioning not only for existing workloads but also the emerging high growth applications. To (indistinct) here's the Arm total available market as we see it, we think the end market spending value of just the chips going into these areas is $600 billion today. And it's going to grow to 1 trillion by 2030. In other words, we're allocating the value of the end market spend in these sectors to the marked up value of the Silicon as a percentage of the total spend. It's enormous. So the big areas are Hyperscale Clouds which we think is around 20% of this TAM and the HPC and AI workloads, which account for about 35% and the Edge will ultimately be the largest of all probably capturing 45%. And these are rough estimates and they'll ebb and flow and there's obviously some overlap but the bottom line is the market is huge and growing very rapidly. And you see that little red highlighted area that's enterprise IT. Traditional IT and that's the x86 market in context. So it's relatively small. What's happening is we're seeing a number of traditional IT vendors, packaging x86 boxes throwing them over the fence and saying, we're going after the Edge. And what they're doing is saying, okay the edge is this aggregation point for all these end point devices. We think the real opportunity at the Edge is for AI inferencing. That, that is where most of the activity and most of the spending is going to be. And we think Arm is going to dominate that market. And this brings up another challenge for Intel. So we've made the point a zillion times that PC volumes peaked in 2011. And we saw that as problematic for Intel for the cost reasons that we've beat into your head. And lo and behold PC volumes, they actually grew last year thanks to COVID and we'll continue to grow it seems for a year or so. Here's some ETR data that underscores that fact. This chart shows the net score. Remember that's spending momentum it's the breakdown for Dell's laptop business. The green means spending is accelerating and the red is decelerating. And the blue line is net score that spending momentum. And the trend is up and to the right now, as we've said this is great news for Dell and HP and Lenovo and Apple for its laptops, all the laptops sellers but it's not necessarily great news for Intel. Why? I mean, it's okay. But what it does is it shifts Intel's product mix toward lower margin, PC chips and it squeezes Intel's gross margins. So the CFO has to explain that margin contraction to wall street. Imagine that the business that got Intel to its monopoly status is growing faster than the high margin server business. And that's pulling margins down. So as we said, Intel is fighting a war on multiple fronts. It's battling AMD in the core x86 business both PCs and servers. It's watching Arm mop up in mobile. It's trying to figure out how to reinvent itself and change its culture to allow more flexibility into its designs. And it's spinning up a Foundry business to compete with TSMC. So it's got to fund all this while at the same time propping up at stock with buybacks Intel last summer announced that it was accelerating it's $10 billion stock buyback program, $10 billion. Buy stock back, or build a Foundry which do you think is more important for the future of Intel and the us semiconductor industry? So Intel, it's got to protect its past while building his future and placating wall street all at the same time. And here's where it gets even more dicey. Intel's got to protect its high-end x86 business. It is the cash cow and funds their operation. Who's Intel's biggest customer Dell, HP, Facebook, Google Amazon? Well, let's just say Amazon is a big customer. Can we agree on that? And we know AWS is biggest revenue generator is EC2. And EC2 was powered by microprocessors made from Intel and others. We found this slide in the Arm Neoverse deck and it caught our attention. The data comes from a data platform called lifter insights. The charts show, the rapid growth of AWS is graviton chips which are they're custom designed chips based on Arm of course. The blue is that graviton and the black vendor A presumably is Intel and the gray is assumed to be AMD. The eye popper is the 2020 pie chart. The instant deployments, nearly 50% are graviton. So if you're Pat Gelsinger, you better be all over AWS. You don't want to lose this customer and you're going to do everything in your power to keep them. But the trend is not your friend in this account. Now the story gets even gnarlier and here's the killer chart. It shows the ISV ecosystem platforms that run on graviton too, because AWS has such good engineering and controls its own stack. It can build Arm-based chips that run software designed to run on general purpose x86 systems. Yes, it's true. The ISV, they got to do some work, but large ISV they have a huge incentives because they want to ride the AWS wave. Certainly the user doesn't know or care but AWS cares because it's driving costs and energy consumption down and performance up. Lower cost, higher performance. Sounds like something Amazon wants to consistently deliver, right? And the ISV portfolio that runs on our base graviton and it's just going to continue to grow. And by the way, it's not just Amazon. It's Alibaba, it's Oracle, it's Marvell. It's 10 cents. The list keeps growing Arm, trotted out a number of names. And I would expect over time it's going to be Facebook and Google and Microsoft. If they're not, are you there? Now the last piece of the Arm architecture story that we want to share is the progress that they're making and compare that to x86. This chart shows how Arm is innovating and let's start with the first line under platform capabilities. Number of cores supported per die or, or system. Now die is what ends up as a chip on a small piece of Silicon. Think of the die as circuit diagram of the chip if you will, and these circuits they're fabricated on wafers using photo lithography. The wafers then cut up into many pieces each one, having a chip. Each of these pieces is the chip. And two chips make up a system. The key here is that Arm is quadrupling the number of cores instead of increasing thread counts. It's giving you cores. Cores are better than threads because threads are shared and cores are independent and much easier to virtualize. This is particularly important in situations where you want to be as efficient as possible sharing massive resources like the Cloud. Now, as you can see in the right hand side of the chart under the orange Arm is dramatically increasing the amount of capabilities compared to previous generations. And one of the other highlights to us is that last line that CCIX and CXL support again Arm maybe needs to name these better. These refer to Arms and memory sharing capabilities within and between processors. This allows CPU's GPU's NPS, et cetera to share resources very often efficiently especially compared to the way x86 works where everything is currently controlled by the x86 processor. CCIX and CXL support on the other hand will allow designers to program the system and share memory wherever they want within the system directly and not have to go through the overhead of a central processor, which owns the memory. So for example, if there's a CPU, GPU, NPU the CPU can say to the GPU, give me your results at a specified location and signal me when you're done. So when the GPU is finished calculating and sending the results, the GPU just signals the operation is complete. Versus having to ping the CPU constantly, which is overhead intensive. Now composability in that chart means the system it's a fixed. Rather you can programmatically change the characteristics of the system on the fly. For example, if the NPU is idle you can allocate more resources to other parts of the system. Now, Intel is doing this too in the future but we think Arm is way ahead. At least by two years this is also huge for Nvidia, which today relies on x86. A major problem for Nvidia has been coherent memory management because the utilization of its GPU is appallingly low and it can't be easily optimized. Last week, Nvidia announced it's intent to provide an AI capability for the data center without x86 I.e using Arm-based processors. So Nvidia another big Intel customer is also moving to Arm. And if it's successful acquiring Arm which is still a long shot this trend is only going to accelerate. But the bottom line is if Intel can't move fast enough to stem the momentum of Arm we believe Arm will capture 50% of the enterprise semiconductor spending by 2030. So how does Intel continue to lead? Well, it's not going to be easy. Remember we said, Intel, can't go it alone. And we posited that the company would have to initiate a joint venture structure. We propose a triumvirate of Intel, IBM with its power of 10 and memory aggregation and memory architecture And Samsung with its volume manufacturing expertise on the premise that it coveted in on US soil presence. Now upon further review we're not sure the Samsung is willing to give up and contribute its IP to this venture. It's put a lot of money and a lot of emphasis on infrastructure in South Korea. And furthermore, we're not convinced that Arvind Krishna who we believe ultimately made the call to Jettisons. Jettison IBM's micro electronics business wants to put his efforts back into manufacturing semi-conductors. So we have this conundrum. Intel is fighting AMD, which is already at seven nanometer. Intel has a fall behind in process manufacturing which is strategically important to the United States it's military and the nation's competitiveness. Intel's behind the curve on cost and architecture and is losing key customers in the most important market segments. And it's way behind on volume. The critical piece of the pie that nobody ever talks about. Intel must become more price and performance competitive with x86 and bring in new composable designs that maintain x86 competitive. And give the ability to allow customers and designers to add and customize GPU's, NPUs, accelerators et cetera. All while launching a successful Foundry business. So we think there's another possibility to this thought exercise. Apple is currently reliant on TSMC and is pushing them hard toward five nanometer, in fact sucking up a lot of that volume and TSMC is maybe not servicing some other customers as well as it's servicing Apple because it's a bit destructive, it is distracted and you have this chip shortage. So Apple because of its size gets the lion's share of the attention but Apple needs a trusted onshore supplier. Sure TSMC is adding manufacturing capacity in the US and Arizona. But back to our precarious scenario in the South China sea. Will the U S government and Apple sit back and hope for the best or will they hope for the best and plan for the worst? Let's face it. If China gains control of TSMC, it could block access to the latest and greatest process technology. Apple just announced that it's investing billions of dollars in semiconductor technology across the US. The US government is pressuring big tech. What about an Apple Intel joint venture? Apple brings the volume, it's Cloud, it's Cloud, sorry. It's money it's design leadership, all that to the table. And they could partner with Intel. It gives Intel the Foundry business and a guaranteed volume stream. And maybe the U S government gives Apple a little bit of breathing room and the whole big up big breakup, big tech narrative. And even though it's not necessarily specifically targeting Apple but maybe the US government needs to think twice before it attacks big tech and thinks about the long-term strategic ramifications. Wouldn't that be ironic? Apple dumps Intel in favor of Arm for the M1 and then incubates, and essentially saves Intel with a pipeline of Foundry business. Now back to IBM in this scenario, we've put a question mark on the slide because maybe IBM just gets in the way and why not? A nice clean partnership between Intel and Apple? Who knows? Maybe Gelsinger can even negotiate this without giving up any equity to Apple, but Apple could be a key ingredient to a cocktail of a new strategy under Pat Gelsinger leadership. Gobs of cash from the US and EU governments and volume from Apple. Wow, still a long shot, but one worth pursuing because as we've written, Intel is too strategic to fail. Okay, well, what do you think? You can DM me @dvellante or email me at david.vellante@siliconangle.com or comment on my LinkedIn post. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcasts so please subscribe wherever you listen. I publish weekly on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. And don't forget to check out etr.plus for all the survey analysis. And I want to thank my colleague, David Floyer for his collaboration on this and other related episodes. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching, be well, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the >>globe. It's the cube with digital >>coverage of IBM >>Think 2021 >>brought to you by IBM. Welcome back everyone to the cubes coverage of IBM Think 2021 I'm your host john ferry with the cube. Our next guest is Michelle well who's the industry General manager of Energy resources manufacturing. Great guest to break down this next generation of infrastructure, modern applications and changing the business and the super important areas is regulated verticals. Great to see you. Thank you for coming back on the queue. >>Thank you john good to meet you. >>You know this is the area where I've been saying for years the cloud brings great scale, horizontally scalable data but at the end of the day AI and automation really has to be specialized in in the verticals and this. We're going to see the action ecosystems for connecting. This is a big deal here think this year transformation is the innovation innovation at scale. It seems to be the underlying theme that we've been reporting on. So I'd love to get your thoughts on how you see this fourth industrial revolution as you say, coming about. Can you define for us what that means and when you say that, what does it mean for customers? >>Yeah, sure, sure. So you know, in in sort of simple terms, all the technologies that we see around us whether it's a I we talk about a I we talked about five G. We talk about edge cloud, robotics. So the application of those to the physical world in some sense, in the industrial world is what we define as uh as the fourth industrial revolution. Essentially it's the convergence between the humans, the physical aspect by the machines and the cyber at the digital aspects, bringing that together so companies can unlock the value from the terabytes and petabytes of data that's that are connected world is now able to produce, >>How does the IOT world come in? We've been again, I did a panel I think two years ago called you know the industrial IOT Armageddon. And it was really kind of point, it was kind of provocative title but the point was you know, the industrial connections are all devices now and they're connected to the network security. Super important, this industrial revolution includes this new edge, it's gotta be smarter and intelligent. What's your take on that? >>Absolutely, it is about the edge, it's about devices, it's about delivering capturing the data from the emptying devices. We've recently heard about the chip shortage which gives you an idea that there is so much utilization of compute power everywhere in the world and the world is becoming very software defined. So whether it's software defined machines, software defined products, the washing machines that he that we use at home, the cars we use at home, there everything is gradually becoming, not gradually, I'd say rapidly becoming intelligent and so that edge or IOT is the foundation stone also everything we're talking about. >>Well you mentioned software on a chip, S. O. C. Um, that's a huge mega wave coming. That's gonna bring so much more compute into smaller form factors. Which leads me to my next question, which kind of, I'm kind of answering for myself, but I'm not a manufacturing company, but why should they care about this trend from a business perspective? Besides the obvious new connection points? What's really in it for them? >>Yes, it's a big topic right now, is, is this topic of resilience? Right, So that's one aspect uh, this the pandemic has taught us that resilience is a core objective. The second objective which which is front and center of all CEOS, or CEOS, is out performance. And so what we're seeing is is out performance, are investing in technology for many goals, right? So it's either sustainability which is a big topic these days and huge priority. Uh it's about efficiency, it's about productivity, it's also now more and more about delivering a much stronger customer experience, right? Making your products easier to use much easily consumable as well. So, if you, when you pull it all together, it's it's an end to end thinking about using data to drive those objectives of out performance, as well as resilience. >>What's the progress being made so far in the manufacturing industry on this front? I mean, is it moving faster? Are you mentioned accelerating? But where is the progress bar? Right now? >>So, I think as we came into 2020, I would have described it as we were starting to enter the Chapter. Two companies were moving from experimentation to really thinking of scaling this and and what we found is the pandemic really caused a big focus on these. As Winston Churchill has been attributed the court never waste a good crisis. So a lot of ceos, a lot of executives and leadership really put their What their energy into accelerate industrial transformation. I think we relieve 2/3 southwell have been able to accelerate the industrial transformation. So the good news is, you know, companies don't have to be convinced about this anymore. They're really they're focuses on what's where should I start? Where should I focus on what should I do next? Right is really the focus and they're investing instead of two types of technologies is the way we see it, what I would call foundational technologies because there's a recognition that to apply the differentiating technologies like Ai and captured and taking value of the data, you need a strong architectural foundation. So whether it's it's cybersecurity, it's what we call it, the integration, connecting the devices back to to the mother ship and it's also applying cloud. But cloud in this context is not about typically what we think is public cloud or or or central spot. It's really bringing cloud like technology is also to the edge I. E. To the plant or to the device itself, whether it's a mobile device or a physical device. And that foundation is the recognition that you've got to have the foundation, that you can build your your capabilities on top, whether it's for customers or clients and colleagues >>as a great insight on the architecture, I think that's a successful playbook. Um It sounds so easy, I do agree with you. I think people have said this is a standard now, Hybrid cloud the edge, pretty clear visibility on the architecture of what to do or what needs to be done, how to do it almost story. So I have to ask you, we hear this barriers, there's always blockers. I think Covid released some of those, relieved some of those blockers because people have to force their way into into the transformation. But what are those barriers um that that are stopping the acceleration for customers to achieve the benefits that they need to see. >>Yes. So I think 11 key barrier is is a recognition that most of our plants or manufacturing facilities that supply chains really run run in a brownfield manner. I there's so many machines, so many facilities that have been built over decades. So there's a there's a proliferation of different ages of devices, machines, etcetera. So making sure that there is a focus on laying out the foundation. That's a key key barrier. Uh There is also a concern that uh you know, the companies have around cybersecurity, the more you connect, the more you increase the attack surface and we know that that acts and so on are the dominant issue. Now, whether it's for ransom, fair or for or for other malicious reasons, uh and so modernizing the foundation and making sure you're doing it in a secure way. Those are the key concerns that executives have. And then another key barrier I see is making sure that you have a key key core objective and not making sure making too many different varied experimentation bets. So keeping a focus on what's the call? Use case of benefit your after and then what's the foundation to make sure that you're going after it? Like I said, whether it's quality or productivity or such, like >>So the keys to success that I get this right is gonna have the right framework for this, as you say, industry 4.0, you got to understand the collaborative dynamics and then have an ecosystem. Yeah, can you unpack those three things? Because take me through that, you got to the framework, the collaboration and the ecosystem. What does that mean? Specifically? >>So uh the way, I think the simplest way to think of it as the amount of work and effort that all companies have been put in is so great in front of them, the opportunities are so great as well uh that nobody can hire all the smart people that are needed to achieve the goals. Everybody has their own specific I would say focus and capabilities they bring to bear. So the collaboration between manufacturers, the collaboration between operational technology companies like the Seaman's, A B B, Schlumberger's, etcetera. And and it technology companies like ourselves that three part collaboration is sort of the heart of what I see as ecosystems coming together. The other dimensionality of ecosystems is also looking at it from a supply chain or value chain perspective because how something becomes more intelligent or smarter or more effective is also being able to work across the supply chain or value chain. So those, those are our key focus areas, make sure we are collaborating across value chains and supply chains as well as collaborating with manufacturers and oT operational technology companies to be able to bring these digital capabilities with the right capabilities of operational technology companies into the manufacturers. >>If I asked you, how is you doing that? What specifically would you say? I mean, how are you collaborating? What's some examples, give some examples of of this in action? >>Certainly. So we recently announced uh over the last say nine months or so, three strategic very translated partnerships. The first one I'll share with you is uh is which number number two is the world's largest oil field services company and now also the world's largest distal technology company for the oil and gas industry. So we've collaborated with them to bring hybrid cloud to the digital platforms so they now can deploy the capabilities to any customer regardless of whether they want it in country or on a public cloud. Another example is we've we've established a data platform which number J for the oil and gas industry to be able to bring again that data platform to any location around the world. The advantage of hybrid, the advantage of A. I with the B. B. What we've done is we've taken our smarts in I. T. Security connected with their products and capabilities for operational systems and now are delivering an into institution that you can get cyber alerts or issues coming from from manufacturing systems right down to right up to an I. T. Command center where you're seeing all the events and alerts so that they can be acted upon right away. So that's a great example of collaborating with from a security point of view. The 3rd 1 is industrial iot with ceilings and we've partnered with Siemens to deliver their minds Fear Private cloud edition delivered on our red hat Hybrid cloud. So this is an example where we are able to take our horizontal technologies, apply it with their vertical smarts and deep industry cause of context put our services capabilities on top of it so they can deliver their innovations anymore. >>It is such an expert on this, such a great leader on this area. And I have to ask you, you know, you've been in this um mode of evangelizing and leading teams and building solutions around digital re platform or whatever you wanna call her innovation. Um what's the big deal now? If you had to? I mean, it seems like it's all coming together with red hat under the covers, get distributed networks with the edge, it's all kind of coming together now for the verticals because you get the best of both worlds programmable scalable infrastructure with modern software applications on top. I mean you've been even even in the industry for many, many waves, why is this wave so big and important? >>So I think there is no longer uh big reason why it's important. I think there's no no reason why companies have to be convinced now the clarity is there, that this needs to happen. So that's one. The second is I think there is a high degree of expectation among consumers, among employees and among among customers as well that everything that we touch will be intelligent. So these technologies really unlock the value, uh unlock the value and they can be deployed at scale. That's really, I think what we're seeing as the focus now and being able to deliver the innovation anywhere, whether someone wants it at the edge next to a machine that's operating or be able to look at how a manufacturing facility or different product portfolio is doing in the boardroom, it's all available and so that shop floor, the top floor connection is what everybody is aiming for. We also now called edge to enterprise >>And everything works better. The employees are happy, people are happy to, stakeholders are happy finish. Great insight. Thank you for sharing here on the Cube for think 2021. Thanks for coming on the Cube. >>Absolutely. Thanks for having me. >>Okay. I'm John Kerry hosted the queue for IBM think 2021. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.