(upbeat music) >> For those of you who've been following the cloud database space, you know that MySQL HeatWave has been on a technology tear over the last 24 months with Oracle claiming record breaking benchmarks relative to other database platforms. So far, those benchmarks remain industry leading as competitors have chosen not to respond, perhaps because they don't feel the need to, or maybe they don't feel that doing so would serve their interest. Regardless, the HeatWave team at Oracle has been very aggressive about its performance claims, making lots of noise, challenging the competition to respond, publishing their scripts to GitHub. But so far, there are no takers, but customers seem to be picking up on these moves by Oracle and it's likely the performance numbers resonate with them. Now, the other area we want to explore, which we haven't thus far, is the engine behind HeatWave and that is AMD. AMD's epic processors have been the powerhouse on OCI, running MySQL HeatWave since day one. And today we're going to explore how these two technology companies are working together to deliver these performance gains and some compelling TCO metrics. In fact, a recent Wikibon analysis from senior analyst Marc Staimer made some TCO comparisons in OLAP workloads relative to AWS, Snowflake, GCP, and Azure databases, you can find that research on wikibon.com. And with that, let me introduce today's guest, Nipun Agarwal senior vice president of MySQL HeatWave and Kumaran Siva, who's the corporate vice president for strategic business development at AMD. Welcome to theCUBE gentlemen. >> Welcome. Thank you. >> Thank you, Dave. >> Hey Nipun, you and I have talked a lot about this. You've been on theCUBE a number of times talking about MySQL HeatWave. But for viewers who may not have seen those episodes maybe you could give us an overview of HeatWave and how it's different from competitive cloud database offerings. >> Sure. So MySQL HeatWave is a fully managed MySQL database service offering from Oracle. It's a single database, which can be used to run transactional processing, analytics and machine learning workloads. So, in the past, MySQL has been designed and optimized for transaction processing. So customers of MySQL when they had to run, analytics machine learning, would need to extract the data out of MySQL, into some other database or service, to run analytics or machine learning. MySQL HeatWave offers a single database for running all kinds of workloads so customers don't need to extract data into some of the database. In addition to having a single database, MySQL HeatWave is also very performant compared to one up databases and also it is very price competitive. So the advantages are; single database, very performant, and very good price performance. >> Yes. And you've published some pretty impressive price performance numbers against competitors. Maybe you could describe those benchmarks and highlight some of the results, please. >> Sure. So one thing to notice that the performance of any database is going to like vary, the performance advantage is going to vary based on, the size of the data and the specific workloads, so the mileage varies, that's the first thing to know. So what we have done is, we have published multiple benchmarks. So we have benchmarks on PPCH or PPCDS and we have benchmarks on different data sizes because based on the customer's workload, the mileage is going to vary, so we want to give customers a broad range of comparisons so that they can decide for themselves. So in a specific case, where we are running on a 30 terabyte PPCH workload, HeatWave is about 18 times better price performance compared to Redshift. 18 times better compared to Redshift, about 33 times better price performance, compared to Snowflake, and 42 times better price performance compared to Google BigQuery. So, this is on 30 Terabyte PPCH. Now, if the data size is different, or the workload is different, the characteristics may vary slightly but this is just to give a flavor of the kind of performance advantage MySQL HeatWave offers. >> And then my last question before we bring in Kumaran. We've talked about the secret sauce being the tight integration between hardware and software, but would you add anything to that? What is that secret sauce in HeatWave that enables you to achieve these performance results and what does it mean for customers? >> So there are three parts to this. One is HeatWave has been designed with a scale out architecture in mind. So we have invented and implemented new algorithms for skill out query processing for analytics. The second aspect is that HeatWave has been really optimized for cloud, commodity cloud, and that's where AMD comes in. So for instance, many of the partitioning schemes we have for processing HeatWave, we optimize them for the L3 cache of the AMD processor. The thing which is very important to our customers is not just the sheer performance but the price performance, and that's where we have had a very good partnership with AMD because not only does AMD help us provide very good performance, but the price performance, right? And that all these numbers which I was showing, big part of it is because we are running on AMD which provides very good price performance. So that's the second aspect. And the third aspect is, MySQL autopilot, which provides machine learning based automation. So it's really these three things, a combination of new algorithms, design for scale out query processing, optimized for commodity cloud hardware, specifically AMD processors, and third, MySQL auto pilot which gives us this performance advantage. >> Great, thank you. So that's a good segue for AMD and Kumaran. So Kumaran, what is AMD bringing to the table? What are the, like, for instance, relevance specs of the chips that are used in Oracle cloud infrastructure and what makes them unique? >> Yeah, thanks Dave. That's a good question. So, OCI is a great customer of ours. They use what we call the top of stack devices meaning that they have the highest core count and they also are very, very fast cores. So these are currently Zen 3 cores. I think the HeatWave product is right now deployed on Zen 2 but will shortly be also on the Zen 3 core as well. But we provide in the case of OCI 64 cores. So that's the largest devices that we build. What actually happens is, because these large number of CPUs in a single package and therefore increasing the density of the node, you end up with this fantastic TCO equation and the cost per performance, the cost per for deployed services like HeatWave actually ends up being extraordinarily competitive and that's a big part of the contribution that we're bringing in here. >> So Zen 3 is the AMD micro architecture which you introduced, I think in 2017, and it's the basis for EPIC, which is sort of the enterprise grade that you really attacked the enterprise with. Maybe you could elaborate a little bit, double click on how your chips contribute specifically to HeatWave's, price performance results. >> Yeah, absolutely. So in the case of HeatWave, so as Nipun alluded to, we have very large L3 caches, right? So in our very, very top end parts just like the Milan X devices, we can go all the way up to like 768 megabytes of L3 cache. And that gives you just enormous performance and performance gains. And that's part of what we're seeing with HeatWave today and that not that they're currently on the second generation ROM based product, 'cause it's a 7,002 based product line running with the 64 cores. But as time goes on, they'll be adopting the next generation Milan as well. And the other part of it too is, as our chip led architecture has evolved, we know, so from the first generation Naples way back in 2017, we went from having multiple memory domains and a sort of NUMA architecture at the time, today we've really optimized that architecture. We use a common I/O Die that has all of the memory channels attached to it. And what that means is that, these scale out applications like HeatWave, are able to really scale very efficiently as they go from a small domain of CPUs to, for example the entire chip, all 64 cores that scaling, is been a key focus for AMD and being able to design and build architectures that can take advantage of that and then have applications like HeatWave that scale so well on it, has been, a key aim of ours. >> And Gen 3 moving up the Italian countryside. Nipun, you've taken the somewhat unusual step of posting the benchmark parameters, making them public on GitHub. Now, HeatWave is relatively new. So people felt that when Oracle gained ownership of MySQL it would let it wilt on the vine in favor of Oracle database, so you lost some ground and now, you're getting very aggressive with HeatWave. What's the reason for publishing those benchmark parameters on GitHub? >> So, the main reason for us to publish price performance numbers for HeatWave is to communicate to our customers a sense of what are the benefits they're going to get when they use HeatWave. But we want to be very transparent because as I said the performance advantages for the customers may vary, based on the data size, based on the specific workloads. So one of the reasons for us to publish, all these scripts on GitHub is for transparency. So we want customers to take a look at the scripts, know what we have done, and be confident that we stand by the numbers which we are publishing, and they're very welcome, to try these numbers themselves. In fact, we have had customers who have downloaded the scripts from GitHub and run them on our service to kind of validate. The second aspect is in some cases, they may be some deviations from what we are publishing versus what the customer would like to run in the production deployments so it provides an easy way, for customers to take the scripts, modify them in some ways which may suit their real world scenario and run to see what the performance advantages are. So that's the main reason, first, is transparency, so the customers can see what we are doing, because of the comparison, and B, if they want to modify it to suit their needs, and then see what is the performance of HeatWave, they're very welcome to do so. >> So have customers done that? Have they taken the benchmarks? And I mean, if I were a competitor, honestly, I wouldn't get into that food fight because of the impressive performance, but unless I had to, I mean, have customers picked up on that, Nipun? >> Absolutely. In fact, we have had many customers who have benchmarked the performance of MySQL HeatWave, with other services. And the fact that the scripts are available, gives them a very good starting point, and then they've also tweaked those queries in some cases, to see what the Delta would be. And in some cases, customers got back to us saying, hey the performance advantage of HeatWave is actually slightly higher than what was published and what is the reason. And the reason was, when the customers were trying, they were trying on the latest version of the service, and our benchmark results were posted let's say, two months back. So the service had improved in those two to three months and customers actually saw better performance. So yes, absolutely. We have seen customers download the scripts, try them and also modify them to some extent and then do the comparison of HeatWave with other services. >> Interesting. Maybe a question for both of you how is the competition responding to this? They haven't said, "Hey, we're going to come up "with our own benchmarks." Which is very common, you oftentimes see that. Although, for instance, Snowflake hasn't responded to data bricks, so that's not their game, but if the customers are actually, putting a lot of faith in the benchmarks and actually using that for buying decisions, then it's inevitable. But how have you seen the competition respond to the MySQL HeatWave and AMD combo? >> So maybe I can take the first track from the database service standpoint. When customers have more choice, it is invariably advantages for the customer because then the competition is going to react, right? So the way we have seen the reaction is that we do believe, that the other database services are going to take a closer eye to the price performance, right? Because if you're offering such good price performance, the vendors are already looking at it. And, you know, instances where they have offered let's say discount to the customers, to kind of at least like close the gap to some extent. And the second thing would be in terms of the capability. So like one of the things which I should have mentioned even early on, is that not only does MySQL HeatWave on AMD, provide very good price performance, say on like a small cluster, but it's all the way up to a cluster size of 64 nodes, which has about 1000 cores. So the point is, that HeatWave performs very well, both on a small system, as well as a huge scale out. And this is again, one of those things which is a differentiation compared to other services so we expect that even other database services will have to improve their offerings to provide the same good scale factor, which customers are now starting to expectancy, with MySQL HeatWave. >> Kumaran, anything you'd add to that? I mean, you guys are an arms dealer, you love all your OEMs, but at the same time, you've got chip competitors, Silicon competitors. How do you see the competitive-- >> I'd say the broader answer and the big picture for AMD, we're very maniacally focused on our customers, right? And OCI and Oracle are huge and important customers for us, and this particular use cases is extremely interesting both in that it takes advantage, very well of our architecture and it pulls out some of the value that AMD bring. I think from a big picture standpoint, our aim is to execute, to build to bring out generations of CPUs, kind of, you know, do what we say and say, sorry, say what we do and do what we say. And from that point of view, we're hitting, the schedules that we say, and being able to bring out the latest technology and bring it in a TCO value proposition that generationally keeps OCI and HeatWave ahead. That's the crux of our partnership here. >> Yeah, the execution's been obvious for the last several years. Kumaran, staying with you, how would you characterize the collaboration between, the AMD engineers and the HeatWave engineering team? How do you guys work together? >> No, I'd say we're in a very, very deep collaboration. So, there's a few aspects where, we've actually been working together very closely on the code and being able to optimize for both the large L3 cache that AMD has, and so to be able to take advantage of that. And then also, to be able to take advantage of the scaling. So going between, you know, our architecture is chip like based, so we have these, the CPU cores on, we call 'em CCDs and the inter CCD communication, there's opportunities to optimize an application level and that's something we've been engaged with. In the broader engagement, we are going back now for multiple generations with OCI, and there's a lot of input that now, kind of resonates in the product line itself. And so we value this very close collaboration with HeatWave and OCI. >> Yeah, and the cadence, Nip, and you and I have talked about this quite a bit. The cadence has been quite rapid. It's like this constant cycle every couple of months I turn around, is something new on HeatWave. But for question again, for both of you, what new things do you think that organizations, customers, are going to be able to do with MySQL HeatWave if you could look out next 12 to 18 months, is there anything you can share at this time about future collaborations? >> Right, look, 12 to 18 months is a long time. There's going to be a lot of innovation, a lot of new capabilities coming out on in MySQL HeatWave. But even based on what we are currently offering, and the trend we are seeing is that customers are bringing, more classes of workloads. So we started off with OLTP for MySQL, then it went to analytics. Then we increased it to mixed workloads, and now we offer like machine learning as alike. So one is we are seeing, more and more classes of workloads come to MySQL HeatWave. And the second is a scale, that kind of data volumes people are using HeatWave for, to process these mixed workloads, analytics machine learning OLTP, that's increasing. Now, along the way we are making it simpler to use, we are making it more cost effective use. So for instance, last time, when we talked about, we had introduced this real time elasticity and that's something which is a very, very popular feature because customers want the ability to be able to scale out, or scale down very efficiently. That's something we provided. We provided support for compression. So all of these capabilities are making it more efficient for customers to run a larger part of their workloads on MySQL HeatWave, and we will continue to make it richer in the next 12 to 18 months. >> Thank you. Kumaran, anything you'd add to that, we'll give you the last word as we got to wrap it. >> No, absolutely. So, you know, next 12 to 18 months we will have our Zen 4 CPUs out. So this could potentially go into the next generation of the OCI infrastructure. This would be with the Genoa and then Bergamo CPUs taking us to 96 and 128 cores with 12 channels at DDR five. This capability, you know, when applied to an application like HeatWave, you can see that it'll open up another order of magnitude potentially of use cases, right? And we're excited to see what customers can do do with that. It certainly will make, kind of the, this service, and the cloud in general, that this cloud migration, I think even more attractive. So we're pretty excited to see how things evolve in this period of time. >> Yeah, the innovations are coming together. Guys, thanks so much, we got to leave it there really appreciate your time. >> Thank you. >> All right, and thank you for watching this special Cube conversation, this is Dave Vellante, and we'll see you next time. (soft calm music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome to the CUBE Conversation. I'm Lisa Martin. I'm talking next with Sanzio Bassini, the Head of High Performance Computing at Cineca, at DELL technologies customer. Sanzio, welcome to the CUBE. >> Thank you, it's a pleasure, it's a pleasure. >> Likewise, nice to see you. So tell us a little bit about Cineca. This is a large computing center, but a very large Italian nonprofit consortium. Tell us about it. >> Yes, Cineca been founded 50 years ago, from the university systems in Italy. For a statutory mission, which is to support, the scientific discovery, and the industry innovations, using the High Performance Computing and the correlated methodologies like a, Artificial Intelligence, which is one of the, you see the more, in a, in a adopted in those days, but together with the big data processing and and simulation. Yes, we are a consortium, which means that this is a private not-for-profit organizations. Currently, our member of the consortium, almost all the universities in Italy and also all the national agencies for those selected structures. Uh. The main quarter of Cineca is in Bologna, which is in the heart Nation, with the bunch of presence in Milan, in Rome and in Naples, so we are a consultation organization. >> And I also read that you were, are the top 10 out of the top 500 of the world's fastest super computers. That's a pretty big accomplishment. >> Yes. That is a part of our institutional missions, the last 10 to 15 years we have been to say, frequent flyers in the top 10. There been at least two, three systems that have been ranked at the top 10. Apart, the.., whatever would be the meaning of such an advance market, there's a lot of its criticalities. We are well aware. The idea is that we're enabling the scientific discovery, by means of providing the most advanced systems and the co-designing, the most advanced HPC systems to promote and support the, what is the, excellence in science. And that being part of European high-performance computing IT system. That is the case. >> Excellent. Now, talk to me about some of the challenges that Cineca is trying to solve in particular, the Human Brain Project. Talk to us a little bit about that and how you're leveraging high-performance computing to accelerate scientific discovery. >> Um, The Human Brain Project is one of the flagship project that has been co-founded by the European commission and that the participating member states. Is not as another situations that are undertaking, it's definitely a joint collaboration between members states and the European commission. There are two different right now, flagships together with another, that is in progress, which is that the quantum of flagship, the first two flagship abroad that that has been lost. The commission for operation with the participating states has been one on the digraph vein on which also we are participating in directly together with the CNR, is the national business counselor. And the second for which we are core partners of the HPC that is, the Human Brain Project. That, that is a big flagship, one million offer, of newer investment, co-founded by the participating states and that the European commission. The project it's going to set up, in what to do be the, third strategic grant agreement that they will go over the next three years, the good, the complete that the, the whole process. Then we see what is going to happen at Africa. We thought that their would be some others progress offer these big projects. It's project that would combine both the technology issues, like the designing the off high-performance computing systems that meet the requirements of the community and the big challenge, scientific challenges correlated to the physiological functions of the human brain center, including the different farm show survey to do with the behavior of the human brain. A from the pathological point of view, from the physiological point of view, that better understand the could be the way for, for a facing that. Let's say the pathology, some of those are very much correlated with respect to aging, and that it would impact the, the health, the public health systems. Some other that are correlating with what would be the support for the physiological knowledge of the, of the human brains. And finally that they, let me say, technological transfer stuff that represented the knowing off at the physiological, behavior of the human brain. Just to use a sort of metaphor to have happen from the point of view of there computational performance, the human brain is a, a, a, more than Exoscale systems, but with a energy consumption, which is very low, we are talking about some hundreds of Watts. So some hundreds of watts of energy, would provide a an extreme and computational performance. So if would could organized the technology of the high-performance computing in terms of interconnections now we're morphing the computing systems and exploitations of that kind of technologies, in I build a system that it might provide the computational power that would represent a tremendous and tremendous step ahead, in order to facing the big challenges of our base, like energies, personalized medicine, try not to change food for all those kinds of big socioeconomic challenges that we are facing. >> Yes I was reading that besides, sorry Sanzio I was reading that besides the Human Brain Project, there are other projects going on, such as that you mentioned, I'd like to understand how Cineca is working with Dell technologies. You have to translate, as you've mentioned a minute ago, the scientific requirements for discovery into high-performance computing requirements. Talk to me about how you've been doing that with partners like Dell technologies. >> Yes, in particularly in our computing architectures, we had the need to address the capability to facing the data processing involved with backed off the Human Brain Project and general speaking that is backed off the science vendor, that would combine the capability also to provide the cloud access to the system. So by main soft containers technologies and the capability also, to address what would be the creation of a Federation. So Piper problems with people proceeded in a new world. So at the end that the requirements and the terms of reference of the would matter will decline and the terms of a system that would be capable to manage, let's say, in a holistic approach, the data processing, the cloud computing services and the opportunity before for being integrated that in a Federation of HSBC system in Europe's, and with this backed off, that kind of thing, we manage a competitive dialogue procurement processor, I think I the sentence would share together with the different potential technology providers, what would be the visuals and those are the constraints (inaudible) and those other kinds of constraints like, I don't want to say, I mean, environmental kind of constraints and uh, sharing with this back of the technology provider what would it be the vision for this solution, in a very, let's say hard, the competitive dialogue, and at the end, results in a sort of, I don't want to say Darwinian processes, okay. So I mean, the survivors in terms of the different technology providers being Dell that shown the characteristics of the solution that it will be more, let's say compliant. And at the same time are flexible with respect of the combinations of very different constraints and requirements that has been the, the process that has been the outcomes of such a process. >> I like that you mentioned that Darwinian survival of the fittest and that Dell technologies has been, it sounds like a pretty flexible partner because you've got so many different needs and scientific needs to meet for different researchers. Talk to me about how you mentioned that this is a multi-national effort. How does Cineca serve and work with teams not only in Italy, but in other countries and from other institutes? >> Definitely the volume commitment that together with the, European member states is that by means of scientific merits and the peer review process, roughly speaking the arc of the production capacity, would be shared at the European level. That it's a commitment that, that there's been, that there's been a shared of that together with France, Germany, Spain, and, and with the London. So, I mean, our, half of our production capacity, it's a share of that at the European level, where also of course the Italian scientist can apply in the participates, but in a sort of offer emulations and the advanced competition for addressing what it would be the excellence in science. The remaining 50% of our production capacity is for, for the national community and, somehow to prepare and support the Italian community to be competitive on the worldwide scenario on the European and international scenario, uh that setting up would lead also to the agreement at the international level, with respect of some of the options that, that are promoted the progress in a US and in Japan also. So from this point of view, that mean that in some cases also the, access that it would come from researchers the best collaborations and the sharing options with the US researchers their or Japanese researchers in an open space. >> Open space for, it sounds like the Human Brain Project, which the HPC is powering, which has been around since 2013 is really facilitating global collaboration. Talk to me about some of the results that the high-performance computing environment has helped the Human Brain Project to achieve so far. >> The main outcomes that it will be consolidated in the next phase that will be need the by rural SPC that is the Jared undertaking um entities, that has been created for consolidating and for progressing the high-performance computing ecosystem in Europe. It represented by the Federations of high-performance computing systems at European level, there is a, a, an option that, that has been encapsulated and the elaborated inside the human brain flagship project which is called the FEHIPCSE that stand for Federation of a High-Performance Computing System in Europe. That uh provide the open service based on the two concepts on one, one is the sharing of the Heidi at a European level, so it means that the, the high demand of the users or researchers more properly. It's unique and Universal at the European level. That didn't mean better the same, we see identity management, education management with the open, and the access to the Cineca system, to the SARS system in France, to the unique system in, uh Germany to the, Diocese system in a Switzerland, to the Morocco System in a Spain. That is the part related to what will be the federated, the ID management, the others, et cetera, related to what will be the Federation off the data access. So from the point of view, again, the scientific community, mostly the community of Human Brain Project, but that will be open at other domains and other community, make sure that data in a seamless mode after European language, from the technological point of view, or let's say from the infrastructure point of view, very strong up, from the scientific point of view, uh what they think they may not, will be the most of the options is being supported by Cineca has to do with the two specific target. One is the elaboration of the data that are provided by the lands. The laws are a laboratory facility in that Florence. That is one of the four parts, and from the bottom view of the provisions of the data that is for the scattering, the, the data that would come from the mouse brains, that are use for, for (inaudible) And then the second part is for the Mayor scale studies of the cortex of the of the human brain, and that got add-on by a couple of groups that are believing that action from a European level their group of the National Researcher Counsel the CNR, that are the two main outcome on which we are in some out reference high-performance computing facilities for supporting that kind of research. Then their is in some situations they combinations of the performance a, capability of the Federation systems for addressing what will be the simulations of the overall human brain would take a lot of performance challenge simulation with bacteria that they would happen combining that they SPC facility as at European level. >> Right! So I was reading there's a case study by the way, on Cynic that Dell technologies has published. And some of the results you talked about, those that the HPC is facilitating research and results on epilepsy, spinal cord injury, brain prostheses for the blind, as well as new insights into autism. So incredibly important work that you're doing here for the Human Brain Project. One last question Sanzio, for you, what advice would you give to your peers who might be in similar situations that need to, to build and deploy and maintain high-performance computing environments? Where should they start? >> (coughs laughs) I think that at, at a certain point, that specific know how would became sort of a know how that is been, I mean, accumulated and then by some facilities and institutions around the world. There are the, the federal labs in US, the main nation model centers in Europe, the big facilities in Japan. And of course the, the big university facilities in China that are becoming, how do you say, evident and our progressively occupied increasing the space, that to say that that is somehow it, that, that, that the, those institutions would continues collaborate and sharing that there are periods I would expect off what to do, be the top level systems. Then there is a continuous sharing of uh knowledge, the experience best practices with respect off, let's say the technologies transfers towards productions and services and boosterism. Where the situation is big parenta, in the sense that, their are focused what it would be, uh the integration of the high-performance computing technology into their production workflow. And from the point of view, there is the sharing of the experience in order to provide the, a sort of, let's say, spreads and amplifications of the opportunity for supporting innovation. That is part of are solution means, in a Italy but it also, eh, er sort of um, see objective, that is addressed by the European options er supported by the European commission. I think that that sort of (inaudible) supply that in US, the, that will be coming there, sort of you see the max practice for the technology transfer to support the innovation. >> Excellent, that sharing and that knowledge transfer and collaboration. It seems to be absolutely fundamental and the environment that you've built, facilitates that. Sanzio thank you so much for sharing with us, what Cineca is doing and the great research that's going on there, and across a lot of disciplines, we appreciate you joining the program today. Thank you. >> Thank you, it's been a pleasure, thank you very much for the opportunity. >> Likewise, for Sanzio Bassini. I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching this cube conversation. (calming music)