from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante full stack observability is the new buzz phrase as businesses go digital customer experience becomes ever more important why because fickle consumers can switch brands in the blink of an eye or the click of a mouse every vendor wants a piece of the action in this market including companies that have provided traditional monitoring log analytics application performance management etc and they're joined by a slew of new entrants claiming end invisibility across the so-called modern tech stack recent survey research from etr however confirms our thesis that no one company has it all new entrants they've got a vision and and they're not encumbered with legacy technical debt however their offerings are immature on the other hand established players with deep feature sets in one segment are pivoting through m a and some organic development to fill gaps meanwhile the cloud players are well positioned and participating through a combination of their own native tooling combined with strong ecosystems in their respective marketplaces to address this opportunity hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we dive into a recent etr drill down study on full stack observability and to do so we once again welcome in our colleague eric bradley chief engagement strategist and director of research at etr eric good to see you my friend thanks for coming on uh always good to be here dave thank you so much for having us we appreciate it all right before we get into the survey eric i i want to talk a little bit about full stack observability define what it is and so let me start and then you can chime in so when people talk about full stack observability they're referring to the need to understand the behavior of all the technology components that support an application i.e the stack right throughout the entire system meaning the full piece of the equation right the entire system so the compute we're talking about the storage the network and of course that's all software defined today the containers that are running the software the database other middleware components the pipeline of data and then of course the client-side code everything the html the css everything down to the mobile device and the idea is to give people who can fix problems full visibility into the system with a dashboard of metrics that can be visualized at a high level and then drilled into to see logs or traces or events all the metrics that could help remediate an issue so a simple way to think about this eric is i like to think of it as the ability to see everything in the tech stack that could impact the customer experience right how do you see it if only we're that simple right it's it's a huge thing that we're trying to encompass there with full stack observability and uh even though the vendors might tell you on the first sales call that they can do it it's really not that simple based on everything you just said um in this particular survey we tried our best to look at it and we'll go into it later but you know we had to survey on the application side infrastructure side database side blog management security network it's a very difficult thing to encompass um the holy grail would be able to do it with one vendor and do it with one dashboard i don't think we're there anytime soon all right so let's get into this drill down survey results and talk about what you've learned first what is explain what a drill down study is how often does etr conduct these types of things you know who responds what can you tell us yeah sure so the drill downs are actually basically think of it as a custom type of survey work and that could be customized from two different ways either our clients will come to us with a particular topic and we will hold their hands and make sure that they get the the responses that they need uh and more often than not it's actually us as a research department uh wanting to dig into trends that our larger data encompasses and then we'll say hey we really need to look into that and we've done it with everything from rpa to identity access to you know hearing observability and also vendor specific and and macro trends as you know david this particular one the genesis was really a large amount of interest not only from our community the end users but clients i i can't tell you how much interest there is in observability right now we're constantly getting questions and demands for more research and deeper research in this space yeah so our audience will be familiar with the concept of net score that's the periodic survey every quarter like clockwork etr does that then in addition as eric was saying hot topics like in this case full stack observability so we're talking about respondents in the etr community in this case who have a deep understanding of observability and related topics and and they had varying degrees of knowledge about each vendor's offering so you asked the respondents to concentrate on the ones that they knew well correct yes that is correct so this was a smaller survey that we did the end was a little under 188 i believe um and essentially what we did was we took people that responded in the bigger study on these observability vendors and then sent this drill down out so they were specifically people that have purview over their spend with observability now some of it might be more database infrastructure application or security but everyone here is already qualified as an expert to answer these questions that's correct dave yeah so the first data point is the one we're showing you right here the respondents were asked who uses observability tools and eric i've highlighted app ops in in the site reliability engineers because given the emphasis on customer centricity that we hear all the time from the vendor community you would think these roles would be more highly represented but it's the folks in the boiler room that are using these tools highly technical and specialized roles what are your thoughts on this data you know i was a little surprised as well i i kind of thought the sres would be a little bit higher on this but it really just comes down to you know it's the infrastructure um devops and secops that seem to be using it the most i thought maybe the application operations teams would be a little bit more involved as well so i agree with you i was a little bit surprised on this but you know they're the experts so we have to take the data at their word for it but i think what's really happening here is you're recognizing that the work is being done across the entire enterprise as you mentioned before about full stack this isn't just one aspect it's touching every aspect of the enterprise and that's including the internal i.t teams well and i think too eric that this what i took away from this drill down and we'll get more into it is that the vendor marketing is not aligned with what's actually happening in the field and so there's these early days we'll talk about that some more okay next question i thought this was very interesting etr asked on the scale of one to three three being most preferred which pricing model host-based user-based or amount of data ingested based pricing that the responders preferred and eric so what are your what are your thoughts on this because just doing a quick scan scan pricing is all over the map yeah it really is all over the map from a vendor perspective right and also from an end user perspective and all the interviews and panels that i host pricing's a real concern but it is always but in this particular field it's a real concern and i actually just did a panel yesterday of four of these 88 survey takers to get a little bit deeper so i'm going to kind of remark on what they taught me a little bit yesterday one of them said ingestion pricing might be preferable but because it's so unpredictable that's why we're seeing the results skew away from it another one went so far that said uh ingestion based pricing is a nightmare that keeps him up at night because he's just so afraid he's gonna wake up the next day and see what the bill is so um really what they're looking for here and the reason the pricing is skewing that way in this survey is because they need predictability it's about their budget and it's about their planning even though they would prefer an ingestion-based model the fact that they have to plan for their budgets and they have to concern themselves with spending it's moving more to host based yeah so i mean it is complicated and because so for example i just took a quick snapshot of some of the pricing models like dynatrace appd datadog aws and others they tout their host-based pricing new relic they have a splash page up around its user-based pricing and the tiers datadog talks about its ingestion-based pricing for security monitoring aws prices by ingestion for cloud watch logs splunk prices on index data and calculates a per gigabyte per day metric so metrics dashboards alarms alerts events it's they could all be priced differently yeah that's true a few that got called out on us and i'm sure we're going to get into them later so i don't want to you know kill all of our fodder right now but when we were talking about this slide one person particularly decided to call out new relic and specif specifically for their flexibility around pricing he said that they have the ability to rapidly scale up but also contract as needed and he actually even though he's a user of splunk he's a user of dyna trees user of elastic um he also just really wanted to call out the flexibility of new relic in this area so to your point there's a lot of different ways to price this it's a complex problem but i think the key takeaway for vendors is flexibility is the key you really need to give people the ability to be flexible in what they want all right let's drill into the functionality and explore the usage and adoption of the different features by the respondents so this next chart shows module adoption for application performance monitoring apm database and digital experience down to the user and eric i underlined apm which is the blue bar because it seems it stands out especially for aws and you can see dynast dyna trace but also azure new relic and splunk and then digital experience which is the gray bar because despite all the chatter in the market and the marketing around digital transformation and customer experience other than a slightly higher response percentage for aws not a lot of adoption on that front so the vendor marketing again doesn't match the user behavior does it eric no it doesn't there's a couple of things to point out here but let's stick with that digital experience i i was surprised that it was so low on this slide and overall in our survey i did expect it to be more and not just from the vendor marketing perspective but you and i both know at the end of the day the whole point of this is to actually get into that 360 view of what your customer's doing so i i was a little bit surprised to see it that low when we spoke to the panel yesterday a couple of people said no listen it's not that we aren't doing that it's just that it's not the vendors that you put on this survey and they called out two particular names one is called catchpoint and the other one is thousand dies and i think you're aware a thousand dice i'm going to transition that off to you there yeah so a thousand eyes is now part of cisco and we're gonna talk about that a little bit later but but essentially like as i was saying up front they've got gaps in their in their product line so they've got to do m a and then package that up so you know we'll we'll get into that a little bit down the road but i want to bring up the next graphic because that looks at incident management infrastructure monitoring and log management and and what i did here is i called out infrastructure monitoring which is the gray bar and log management that light blue because aws and azure they stand out in these categories and splunk of course eric for for log management what what do you take away from this data yeah the previous slide and this slide you really have to call out aws cloudwatch and microsoft is your monitor um they are very pervasive in this survey and we could probably do an entire show on just that on the cloud versus independent but a couple of things i do want to point out even though these numbers are so high for these cloud tools the the panelists and the people i spoke to in more detail all said listen i'm going to look at my cloud tools first i'm on their infrastructure they're handing it to me i'm going to look at it and i'll use it for what it's good for however we're in a multi-cloud world and they're not good at things that aren't in their ecosystem so these are not even though these numbers are high i do not believe that you know aws or azure is going to go and take over all the independents in a multi-cloud world they want an independent vendor whether it's a data dog new relic we could talk about all of those later but um you know really i was surprised that the aws particularly was so high and so pervasive in here across the way a splunk what can you say i mean they are the most pervasive vendor you know they they're everywhere uh we had people in the panel call them a swiss army knife and you know that's a good and a bad that they have a lot of breadth of coverage which is great but because there's a breadth of coverage not all of it is great log management without a doubt is what they are great at they're specialized at it but the panelists were saying listen if you go away from their core and you try to use some of the other things they claim that they can do it requires a lot of heavy lifting and then we can get into a little bit later about their cloud cloud sas integration we had some issues with that in the survey as well and great points about the multi-cloud you're probably not going to trust that to your your cloud your public cloud vendor and so a lot of white space available for the traditional on-prem guys okay next the etr survey drilled into network monitoring and security monitoring and then other security functions and eric there are a couple of things that stood out to me in this chart i highlighted security monitoring which is the blue bar because you can again see the adoption from aws and azure and of course splunk and also we called out solar winds because of the large adoption in network monitoring so let me ask you what are you seeing in the data since the solarwinds breach and is there anything else in this chart that you want to call out i could go on for a while about solarwinds but you know the data since i guess it broke around 12 months ago even though the breach was even prior to that uh the headlines were big i think you remember you and i last year did a quick drill down survey just on solarwinds uh and the impact that we thought we would have it uh there's a very real impact happening uh with that said they're not easy to move away from um we asked about is there any one vendor that could take this entire space and the answer was solar winds was best positioned to do that but it's too late now and then i drilled down a little bit and i asked the panel well what can they do to reinvent themselves what can they do to change the reputational damage from this breach and the panelists all said nothing the reputational damage is done the best way for them to reinvent themselves would be to do an m a consolidate with somebody else change their name they truly believe that right now the only reason that people are still using solarwinds is it's not that easy to lift and shift away from but there will be no new net workloads going to these people at least according to the the ones who took our survey um that's on solar winds and we could get you know in more if you want but i think that's kind of you know giving the the the crux of the matter on splunk again what can you say on the security side on the sim side people don't want to use multiple vendors on the other side we were talking about with full stack some might be better at apm some might be better at infrastructure monitoring when you're talking about security you truly do want one vendor to rule them all and splunk does seem to be the one that's most well entrenched on the security side and as long as the policy is consistent across security you really can't say much about them so what they do well their core their the data shows that you know people still trust them great thank you for that okay now the last set of data we want to show we kind of consolidated some things you want the the detail and the drill down you had several drill down questions and what we try to do is consolidate them into a single chart which we had to stare at for a while so for each of the 11 companies etr asked respondents if the features across the top that you see here were strengths weaknesses or neutral and what we've done is we tried to consolidate the chart showing the strengths in the green which we just subjectively said okay that means more than 40 percent of the respondents identified the feature as a strength the weaknesses in yellow meant that more than 20 percent of the respondents cited the feature as a weakness and the neutrals in the gray where neither of those conditions were met but the gray was you know the neutral was high and what we did is we added four stars for standout features where 60 or more of the respondents cited the feature as a strength and we threw in two stars if they were close to 60 you know high 50s even mid 50s but but not single digit weakness for that feature that was got two stars so it was able to sort of visualize a lot of data so eric just a quick scan of this chart chart shows that the two big cloud players aws in particular but also azure they have a relatively strong showing and i say relatively because as you know eric there wasn't a single category of feature for any vendor where more than 70 percent of the respondents cited the strength for that single feature not one and there was a lot of gray and you can see pricing is a sore point for many customers including those evaluating solarwinds new relic elastic datadog dynatrace appd and splunk only aws and grafana were hit not hit hard on pricing and i guess the other thing that stands out to me here is that new relic eric showed some relative strength so the last thing i'll mention before you dive in look at what cisco is doing we talked about this before a little bit the drill down focused on appd but as i mentioned earlier companies that have mature stacks are filling the gaps so if you look at what cisco's doing this space they've put an interface layer over appd inner site and thousand eyes even though they're separate products they're historically priced separately i think they're still trying to figure out the pricing but they are definitely going to market with a strategy that bolts together these three separate products and that's not necessarily a bad strategy because combined they can claim even more depth and breadth eric what do you make of this data yeah just like this chart there is a lot there right so uh on a macro level let's just the obvious situation here is this is a crowded crowded marketplace and consolidation is needed i had one panelist say to me yesterday i can't wait for this to consolidate like this is just crazy that there needs to be consolidation uh now to your point about cisco cisco's taking the same playbook they did with security right they're going out and they're buying great tools and then now we have to make sure that they figure out a way to integrate these better uh the security side took them a little while to do that but they're getting there hopefully they can do this a little bit quicker here what we did here is that um appd is actually very strong on the application monitoring side for the core apm uh maybe not so much on these others and then that's why they go out and do what you're doing what you're saying about now so hopefully they will get there um kind of talking across the board pricing was a problem for all of them right so it just seems to me that you know the end users the buyers just feel like hey i shouldn't be paying this much for this we've got a lot of choices maybe there's some collusion on the pricing side but we have to figure it out because they do not want to pay this much for it it was the number one concern across almost every single vendor another aspect that i really want to call out on this and is something that our research team found really interesting and it's really about the digital transformation as digital transformation continues the workloads are moving towards the cloud and we're clearly seeing in this data that that's benefiting the newer players the data dogs and the new relics versus some of the others like a dynatrace and a splunk and when you go and actually look at the cloud sas integration answer option specifically it becomes very very obvious um you know splunk had a 38 on that number whereas datadog had 61 new relic at 58. so it's just very clear as a digital transformation increases workloads on observability it is lifting all boats but it's lifting some faster than others great points um all right as we said at the top you've got a set of incumbents they're jockeying for position you've got companies like datadog it's got as eric just mentioned strong cloud model elastic's got got the open source mojo and they're going after splunk's install base as is datadog and then you see startups like chaos search they're out now talking about how to do log analytics they do more than that but that's their sort of starter use case and they're going after the elastic and the elk stack which got dinged a bit in the survey on simplicity uh you know ease of standing it up and and so forth not a weakness if you're comfortable with full open source model but maybe not well understood as some of the other solution oriented plays and then you got other new entrants which are not covered in the drill down they're not as pervasive in the marketplace but guys like honeycomb and observe eric you mentioned some others that came out in the panel vmware even is getting into the act they're positioning tanzu around observability with really a strong kubernetes emphasis and there's dozens of other players in the space which we haven't talked about so eric this is jump ball and i'll give you the final word give us your last thoughts yeah there's a again a lot there it's such an interesting space like even ibm right they go out and buy turbonomics right everyone seems to be playing and not only that the ones that are already playing are expanding data dog comes out and says hey we do security now so i don't really know where this is going to end but there's too much happening there needs to be some sort of you know order out of the chaos uh to your point about some of the emerging names we just launched our emerging technology survey this week david those are the ones where we're going to see data on those names so stay tuned for that we don't track them in the core tsis which are more mature public vendors but we will be getting some data on those uh but to your point i really do believe that this space is rapidly expanding and i just kind of want to leave everyone with this there's a lot of growth still left in the panel yesterday i basically said to people how much of your infrastructure are you monitoring today versus how much you want to and the answer was around 65 to 70 percent being monitored now and without a doubt they all want to get to 100 so there is still a lot of room to grow in this space but i just don't know if there's enough room for all of these people that are basically going after the same percentage points so what we're seeing from a vendor strategy now is bundling they're trying to bundle because that's the way they're gonna actually gain that market share right and uh just one last point to you for elastic a lot of people still view elastic as a search functionality so even though they have use cases and observability i still think there's a lot of people that the elastic got into the elk stack in general got into their enterprise for search so that is still kind of where they are and maybe they're not moving as fast as a data dog or a new relic in pure full stack observability eric so great to have you on you guys cover so much space so we're gonna leave it there for now we really appreciate our friends at etr for the the work that they do and thank you eric for joining us today and sharing your insights great stuff welcome dave i always enjoy talking to you you know that and uh everyone else we'll be back in a couple of months with our predictions as well so yeah that's right yeah look for those all right remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen all you gotta do is search breaking analysis podcast check out etr's website etr dot plus they've got a whole new packaging and and pricing models so check that out we also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com and you can get in touch with me david.velante at siliconangle.com or at divalante on twitter i'm on linkedin all the time this is dave vellante for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week everybody stay safe be well and we'll see you next time you

from the cube studios in palo alto in boston bringing you data driven insights from the cube and etr this is breaking analysis with dave vellante recent survey data from etr shows that enterprise tech spending is tracking with projected u.s gdp growth at six to seven percent this year many markers continue to point the way to a strong recovery including hiring trends and the loosening of frozen it project budgets however skills shortages are blocking progress at some companies which bodes well for an increased reliance on external i.t services moreover while there's much to talk about well there's much talk about the rotation out of work from home plays and stocks such as video conferencing vdi and other remote worker tech we see organizations still trying to figure out the ideal balance between funding headquarter investments that have been neglected and getting hybrid work right in particular the talent gap combined with a digital mandate means companies face some tough decisions as to how to fund the future while serving existing customers and transforming culturally hello everyone and welcome to this week's wikibon cube insights powered by etr in this breaking analysis we welcome back eric porter bradley of etr who will share fresh data perspectives and insights from the latest survey data eric great to see you welcome thank you very much dave always good to see you and happy to be on the show again okay we're going to share some macro data and then we're going to dig into some highlights from etr's most recent march covid survey and also the latest april data so eric the first chart that we want to show it shows cio and it buyer responses to expected i.t spend for each quarter of 2021 versus 2020. and you can see here a steady quarterly improvement eric what are the key takeaways from your perspective sure well first of all for everyone out there this particular survey had a record-setting number of uh participation we had uh 1 500 i.t decision makers participate and we had over half of the fortune 500 and over a fifth of the global 1000. so it was a really good survey this is the seventh iteration of the covet impact survey specifically and this is going to transition to an over large macro survey going forward so we could continue it and you're 100 right what we've been tracking here since uh march of last year was how is spending being impacted because of covid where is it shifting and what we're seeing now finally is that there is a real re-acceleration in spend i know we've been a little bit more cautious than some of the other peers out there that just early on slapped an eight or a nine percent number but what we're seeing is right now it's at a midpoint of over six uh about six point seven percent and that is accelerating so uh we are still hopeful that that will continue uh really that spending is going to be in the second half of the year as you can see on the left part of this chart that we're looking at uh it was about 1.7 versus 3 for q1 spending year over year so that is starting to accelerate through the back half you know i think it's prudent to be be cautious relative because normally you'd say okay tech is going to grow a couple of points higher than gdp but it's it's really so hard to predict this year okay the next chart is here that we want to show you is we ask respondents to indicate what strategies they're employing in the short term as a result of coronavirus and you can see a few things that i'll call out and then i'll ask eric to chime in first there's been no meaningful change of course no surprise in tactics like remote work and halting travel however we're seeing very positive trends in other areas trending downward like hiring freezes and freezing i.t deployments downward trend in layoffs and we also see an increase in the acceleration of new i.t deployments and in hiring eric what are your key takeaways well first of all i think it's important to point out here that uh we're also capturing that people believe remote work productivity is still increasing now the trajectory might be coming down a little bit but that is really key i think to the backdrop of what's happening here so people have a perception that productivity of remote work is better than hybrid work and that's from the i.t decision makers themselves um but what we're seeing here is that uh most importantly these organizations are citing plans to increase hiring and that's something that i think is really important to point out it's showing a real thawing and to your point in right in the beginning of the intro uh we are seeing deployments stabilize versus prior survey levels which means early on they had no plans to launch new tech deployments then they said nope we're going to start and now that's stalling and i think it's exactly right what you said is there's an i.t skills shortage so people want to continue to do i.t deployments because they have to support work from home and a hybrid back return to the office but they just don't have the skills to do so and i think that's really probably the most important takeaway from this chart um is that stalling and to really ask why it's stalling yeah so we're going to get into that for sure and and i think that's a really key point is that that that accelerating it deployments is some it looks like it's hit a wall in the survey and so but before before we get deep into the skills let's let's take a look at this next chart and we're asking people here how a return to the new normal if you will and back to offices is going to change spending with on-prem architectures and applications and so the first two bars they're cloud-friendly if you add them up at 63 percent of the respondents say that either they'll stay in the cloud for the most part or they're going to lower the on-prem spend when they go back to the office the next three bars are on-prem friendly if you add those up as 29 percent of the respondents say their on-prem spend is going to bounce back to pre-covert levels or actually increase and of course 12 percent of that number by the way say they they've never altered their on-prem spend so eric no surprise but this bodes well for cloud but but it it isn't it also a positive for on-prem this we've had this dual funding premise meaning cloud continues to grow but neglected data center spend also gets a boost what's your thoughts you know really it's interesting it's people are spending on all fronts you and i were talking in a prep it's like you know we're we're in battle and i've got naval i've got you know air i've got land uh i've got to spend on cloud and digital transformation but i also have to spend for on-prem uh the hybrid work is here and it needs to be supported so this spending is going to increase you know when you look at this chart you're going to see though that roughly 36 percent of all respondents say that their spending is going to remain mostly on cloud so this you know that is still the clear direction uh digital transformation is still happening covid accelerated it greatly um you know you and i as journalists and researchers already know this is where the puck is going uh but spend has always lagged a little bit behind because it just takes some time to get there you know inversely 27 said that their on-prem spending will decrease so when you look at those two i still think that the trend is the friend for cloud spending uh even though yes they do have to continue spending on hybrid some of it's been neglected there are refresh cycles coming up so overall it just points to more and more spending right now it really does seem to be a very strong backdrop for it growth so i want to talk a little bit about the etr taxonomy before we bring up the next chart we get a lot of questions about this and of course when you do a massive survey like you're doing you have to have consistency for time series so you have to really think through what that what the buckets look like if you will so this next chart takes a look at the etr taxonomy and it breaks it down into simple to understand terms so the green is the portion of spending on a vendor's tech within a category that is accelerating and the red is the portion that is decelerating so eric what are the key messages in this data well first of all dave thank you so much for pointing that out we used to do uh just what we call a next a net score it's a proprietary formula that we use to determine the overall velocity of spending some people found it confusing um our data scientists decided to break this sector breakdown into what you said which is really more of a mode analysis in that sector how many of the vendors are increasing versus decreasing so again i just appreciate you bringing that up and allowing us to explain the the the reasoning behind our analysis there but what we're seeing here uh goes back to something you and i did last year when we did our predictions and that was that it services and consulting was going to have a true rebound in 2021 and that's what this is showing right here so in this chart you're going to see that consulting and services are really continuing their recovery uh 2020 had a lot of declines and they have the biggest sector over year-over-year acceleration sector-wise the other thing to point out in this which we'll get to again later is that the inverse analysis is true for video conferencing uh we will get to that so i'm going to leave a little bit of ammunition behind for that one but what we're seeing here is it consulting services being the real favorable and video conferencing uh having a little bit more trouble great okay and then let's let's take a look at that services piece and this next chart really is a drill down into that space and emphasizes eric what you were just talking about and we saw this in ibm's earnings where still more than 60 percent of ibm's business comes from services and the company beat earnings you know in part due to services outperforming expectations i think it had a somewhat easier compare and some of this pen-up demand that we've been talking about bodes well for ibm and in other services companies it's not just ibm right eric no it's not but again i'm going to point out that you and i did point out ibm in our in our predictions one we did in late december so it is nice to see one of the reasons we don't have a more favorable rating on ibm at the moment is because they are in the the process of spinning out uh this large unit and so there's a little bit of you know corporate action there that keeps us off on the sideline but i would also want to point out here uh tata infosys and cognizant because they're seeing year-over-year acceleration in both it consulting and outsourced i t services so we break those down separately and those are the three names that are seeing acceleration in both of those so again a tata emphasis and cognizant are all looking pretty well positioned as well so we've been talking a little bit about this skill shortage and this is what's i think so hard for for forecasters um is that you know on the one hand there's a lot of pent up demand you know it's like scott gottlieb said it's like woodstock coming out of the covid uh but on the other hand if you have a talent gap you've got to rely on external services so there's a learning curve there's a ramp up it's an external company and so it takes time to put those together so so this data that we're going to show you next uh is is really important in my view and ties what we're saying we're saying at the top it asks respondents to comment on their staffing plans the light blue is we're increasing staff the gray is no change in the magenta or whatever whatever color that is that sort of purplish color anyway that color is is decreasing and the picture is very positive across the board full-time staff offshoring contract employees outsourced professional services all up trending upwards and this eric is more evidence of the services bounce back yeah it certainly is david and what happened is when we caught this trend we decided to go one level deeper and say all right we're seeing this but we need to know why and that's what we always try to do here data will tell you what's happening it doesn't always tell you why and that's one of the things that etr really tries to dig in with through the insights interviews panels and also going direct with these more custom survey questions uh so in this instance i think the real takeaway is that 30 of the respondents said that their outsourced and managed services are going to increase over the next three months that's really powerful that's a large portion of organizations in a very short time period so we're capturing that this acceleration is happening right now and it will be happening in real time and i don't see it slowing down you and i are speaking about we have to you know increase cloud spend we have to increase hybrid spend there are refresh cycles coming up and there's just a real skill shortage so this is a long-term setup that bodes very well for it services and consulting you know eric when i came out of college i somebody told me read read read read as much as you can and and so i would and they said read the wall street journal every day and i so i did it and i would read the tech magazines and back then it was all paper and what happens is you begin to connect the dots and so the reason i bring that up is because i've now been had taken a bath in the etr data for the better part of two years and i'm beginning to be able to connect the dots you know the data is not always predictive but many many times it is and so this next data gets into the fun stuff where we name names a lot of times people don't like it because the marketing people and organizations say well the data's wrong of course that's the first thing they do is attack the data but you and i know we've made some really great calls work from home for sure you're talking about the services bounce back uh we certainly saw the rise of crowdstrike octa zscaler well before people were talking about that same thing with video conferencing and so so anyway this is the fun stuff and it looks at positive versus negative sentiment on on companies so first how does etr derive this data and how should we interpret it and what are some of your takeaways [Music] sure first of all how we derive the data or systematic um survey responses that we do on a quarterly basis and we standardize those responses to allow for time series analysis so we can do trend analysis as well we do find that our data because it's talking about forward-looking spending intentions is really more predictive because we're talking about things that might be happening six months three months in the future not things that a lot of other competitors and research peers are looking at things that already happened uh they're looking in the past etr really likes to look into the future and our surveys are set up to do so so thank you for that question it's an enjoyable lead-in but to get to the fun stuff like you said uh what we do here is we put ratings on the data sets i do want to put the caveat out there that our spending intentions really only captures top-line revenue it is not indicative of profit margin or any other line items so this is only going to be viewed as what we are rating the data set itself not the company um you know that's not what we're in the game of doing so i think that's very important for the marketing and the vendors out there themselves when they when they take a look at this we're just talking about what we can control which is our data we're going to talk about a few of the names here on this highlighted vendors list one we're going to go back to that you and i spoke about i guess about six months ago or maybe even earlier which was the observability space um you and i were noticing that it was getting very crowded a lot of new entrants um there was a lot of acquisition from more of the legacy or standard entrance players in the space and that is continuing so i think in a minute we're going to move into that observability space but what we're seeing there is that it's becoming incredibly crowded and we're possibly seeing signs of them cannibalizing each other uh we're also going to move on a little bit into video conferencing where we're capturing some spend deceleration and then ultimately we're going to get into a little bit of a storage refresh cycle and talk about that but yeah these are the highlighted vendors for april um we usually do this once a quarter and they do change based on the data but they're not usually whipsawed around the data doesn't move that quickly yeah so you can see the some of the big names on the left-hand side some of the sas companies that have momentum obviously servicenow has been doing very very well we've talked a lot about snowflake octa crowdstrike z scalar in all very positive as well as you know several others i i guess i'd add some some things i mean i think if thinking about the next decade it's it's cloud which is not going to be like the same cloud as last decade a lot of machine learning and deep learning and ai and the cloud is extending to the edge in the data center data obviously very important data is decentralized and distributed so data architectures are changing a lot of opportunities to connect across clouds and actually create abstraction layers and then something that we've been covering a lot is processor performance is actually accelerating relative to moore's law it's probably instead of doubling every two years it's quadrupling every two years and so that is a huge factor especially as it relates to powering ai and ai inferencing at the edge this is a whole new territory custom silicon is is really becoming in vogue uh and so we're something that we're watching very very closely yeah i completely completely agree on that and i do think that the the next version of cloud will be very different another thing to point out on that too is you can't do anything that you're talking about without collecting the data and and organizations are extremely serious about that now it seems it doesn't matter what industry they're in every company is a data company and that also bodes well for the storage call we do believe that there is going to just be a huge increase in the need for storage um and yes hopefully that'll become portable across multi-cloud and hybrid as well now as eric said the the etr data's it's it's really focused on that top line spend so if you look at the uh on on the right side of that chart you saw you know netapp was kind of negative was very negative right but there's a company that's in in transformation now they've lowered expectations and they've recently beat expectations that's why the stock has been doing better but but at the macro from a spending standpoint it's still challenged so you have big footprint companies like netapp and oracle is another one oracle's stock is at an all-time high but the spending relative to sort of previous cycles or relative to you know like for instance snowflake much much smaller not as high growth but they're managing expectations they're managing their transition they're managing profitability zoom is another one zoom looking looking negative but you know zoom's got to use its market cap now to to transform and increase its tam uh and then splunk is another one we're going to talk about splunk is in transition it acquired signal fx it just brought on this week teresa carlson who was the head of aws public sector she's the president and head of sales so they've got a go to market challenge and they brought in teresa carlson to really solve that but but splunk has been trending downward we called that you know several quarters ago eric and so i want to bring up the data on splunk and this is splunk eric in analytics and it's not trending in the right direction the green is accelerating span the red is and the bars is decelerating spend the top blue line is spending velocity or net score and the yellow line is market share or pervasiveness in the data set your thoughts yeah first i want to go back is a great point dave about our data versus a disconnect from an equity analysis perspective i used to be an equity analyst that is not what we do here and you you may the main word you said is expectations right stocks will trade on how they do compared to the expectations that are set uh whether that's buy side expectations sell side expectations or management's guidance themselves we have no business in tracking any of that what we are talking about is top line acceleration or deceleration so uh that was a great point to make and i do think it's an important one for all of our listeners out there now uh to move to splunk yes i've been capturing a lot of negative commentary on splunk even before the data turned so this has been about a year-long uh you know our analysis and review on this name and i'm dating myself here but i know you and i are both rock and roll fans so i'm gonna point out a led zeppelin song and movie and say that the song remains the same for splunk we are just seeing uh you know recent spending intentions are taking yet another step down both from prior survey levels from year ago levels uh this we're looking at in the analytics sector and spending intentions are decelerating across every single customer group if we went to one of our other slide analysis um on the etr plus platform and you do by customer sub sample in analytics it's dropping in every single vertical it doesn't matter which one uh it's really not looking good unfortunately and you had mentioned this as an analytics and i do believe the next slide is an information security yeah let's bring that up and it's unfortunately it's not doing much better so this is specifically fortune 500 accounts and information security uh you know there's deep pockets in the fortune 500 but from what we're hearing in all the insights and interviews and panels that i personally moderate for etr people are upset they didn't like the the strong tactics that splunk has used on them in the past they didn't like the ingestion model pricing the inflexibility and when alternatives came along people are willing to look at the alternatives and that's what we're seeing in both analytics and big data and also for their sim in security yeah so i think again i i point to teresa carlson she's got a big job but she's very capable she's gonna she's gonna meet with a lot of customers she's a go to market pro she's gonna have to listen hard and i think you're gonna you're gonna see some changes there um okay so there's more sorry there's more bad news on splunk so bring this up is is is net score for splunk in elastic accounts uh this is for analytics so there's 106 elastic accounts that uh in the data set that also have splunk and it's trending downward for splunk that's why it's green for elastic and eric the important call out from etr here is how splunk's performance in elastic accounts compares with its performance overall the elk stack which obviously elastic is a big part of that is causing pain for splunk as is data dog and you mentioned the pricing issue uh is it is it just well is it pricing in your assessment or is it more fundamental you know it's multi-level based on the commentary we get from our itdms that take the survey so yes you did a great job with this analysis what we're looking at is uh the spending within shared accounts so if i have splunk already how am i spending i'm sorry if i have elastic already how is my spending on splunk and what you're seeing here is it's down to about a 12 net score whereas splunk overall has a 32 net score among all of its customers so what you're seeing there is there is definitely a drain that's happening where elastic is draining spend from splunk and usage from them uh the reason we used elastic here is because all observabilities the whole sector seems to be decelerating splunk is decelerating the most but elastic is the only one that's actually showing resiliency so that's why we decided to choose these two but you pointed out yes it's also datadog datadog is cloud native uh they're more devops oriented they tend to be viewed as having technological lead as compared to splunk so that's a really good point a dynatrace also is expanding their abilities and splunk has been making a lot of acquisitions to push their cloud services they are also changing their pricing model right they're they're trying to make things a little bit more flexible moving off ingestion um and moving towards uh you know consumption so they are trying and the new hires you know i'm not gonna bet against them because the one thing that splunk has going for them is their market share in our survey they're still very well entrenched so they do have a lot of accounts they have their foothold so if they can find a way to make these changes then they you know will be able to change themselves but the one thing i got to say across the whole sector is competition is increasing and it does appear based on commentary and data that they're starting to cannibalize themselves it really seems pretty hard to get away from that and you know there are startups in the observability space too that are going to be you know even more disruptive i think i think i want to key on the pricing for a moment and i've been pretty vocal about this i think the the old sas pricing model where essentially you essentially lock in for a year or two years or three years pay up front or maybe pay quarterly if you're lucky that's a one-way street and i think it's it's a flawed model i like what snowflake's doing i like what datadog's doing look at what stripe is doing look what twilio is doing these are cons you mentioned it because it's consumption based pricing and if you've got a great product put it out there and you know damn the torpedoes and i think that is a game changer i i look at for instance hpe with green lake i look at dell with apex they're trying to mimic that model you know they're there and apply it to to infrastructure it's much harder with infrastructure because you got to deploy physical infrastructure but but that is a model that i think is going to change and i think all of the traditional sas pricing is going to is going to come under disruption over the next you know better part of the decades but anyway uh let's move on we've we've been covering the the apm space uh pretty extensively application performance management and this chart lines up some of the big players here comparing net score or spending momentum from the april 20th survey the gray is is um is sorry the the the gray is the april 20th survey the blue is jan 21 and the yellow is april 21. and not only are elastic and data dog doing well relative to splunk eric but everything is down from last year so this space as you point out is undergoing a transformation yeah the pressures are real and it's you know it's sort of that perfect storm where it's not only the data that's telling us that but also the direct feedback we get from the community uh pretty much all the interviews i do i've done a few panels specifically on this topic for anyone who wants to you know dive a little bit deeper we've had some experts talk about this space and there really is no denying that there is a deceleration in spend and it's happening because that spend is getting spread out among different vendors people are using you know a data dog for certain aspects they're using elastic where they can because it's cheaper they're using splunk because they have to but because it's so expensive they're cutting some of the things that they're putting into splunk which is dangerous particularly on the security side if i have to decide what to put in and whatnot that's not really the right way to have security hygiene um so you know this space is just getting crowded there's disruptive vendors coming from the emerging space as well and what you're seeing here is the only bit of positivity is elastic on a survey over survey basis with a slight slight uptick everywhere else year over year and survey over survey it's showing declines it's just hard to ignore and then you've got dynatrace who based on the the interviews you do in the venn you're you know one on one or one on five you know the private interviews that i've been invited to dynatrace gets very high scores uh for their road map you've got new relic which has been struggling you know financially but they've got a purpose built they've got a really good product and a purpose-built database just for this apm space and then of course you've got cisco with appd which is a strong business for them and then as you mentioned you've got startups coming in you've got chaos search which ed walsh is now running you know leave the data in place in aws and really interesting model honeycomb it's going to be really disruptive jeremy burton's company observed so this space is it's becoming jump ball yeah there's a great line that came out of one of them and that was that the lines are blurring it used to be that you knew exactly that app dynamics what they were doing it was apm only or it was logging and monitoring only and a lot of what i'm hearing from the itdm experts is that the lines are blurring amongst all of these names they all have functionality that kind of crosses over each other and the other interesting thing is it used to be application versus infrastructure monitoring but as you know infrastructure is becoming code more and more and more and as infrastructure becomes code there's really no difference between application and infrastructure monitoring so we're seeing a convergence and a blurring of the lines in this space which really doesn't bode well and a great point about new relic their tech gets good remarks uh i just don't know if their enterprise level service and sales is up to snuff right now um as one of my experts said a cto of a very large public online hospitality company essentially said that he would be shocked that within 18 months if all of these players are still uh standalone that there needs to be some m a or convergence in this space okay now we're going to call out some of the data that that really has jumped out to etr in the latest survey and some of the names that are getting the most queries from etr clients which are many of which are investor clients so let's start by having a look at one of the most important and prominent work from home names zoom uh let's let's look at this eric is the ride over for zoom oh i've been saying it for a little bit of a time now actually i do believe it is um i will get into it but again pointing out great dave uh the reason we're presenting today splunk elastic and zoom are they are the most viewed on the etr plus platform uh trailing behind that only slightly is f5 i decided not to bring f5 to the table today because we don't have a rating on the data set um so then i went one deep one below that and it's pure so the reason we're presenting these to you today is that these are the ones that our clients and our community are most interested in which is hopefully going to gain interest to your viewers as well so to get to zoom um yeah i call zoom the pandec pandemic bull market baby uh this was really just one that had a meteoric ride you look back january in 2020 the stock was at 60 and 10 months later it was like like 580. that's in 10 months um that's cooled down a little bit uh into the mid 300s and i believe that cooling down should continue and the reason why is because we are seeing a huge deceleration in our spending intentions uh they're hitting all-time lows it's really just a very ugly data set um more importantly than the spending intentions for the first time we're seeing customer growth in our survey flattened in the past we could we knew that the the deceleration and spend was happening but meanwhile their new customer growth was accelerating so it was kind of hard to really make any call based on that this is the first time we're seeing flattening customer growth trajectory and that uh in tandem with just dominance from microsoft in every sector they're involved in i don't care if it's ip telephony productivity apps or the core video conferencing microsoft is just dominating so there's really just no way to ignore this anymore the data and the commentary state that zoom is facing some headwinds well plus you've pointed out to me that a lot of your private conversations with buyers says that hey we're we're using the freebie version of zoom you know we're not paying them and so in that combined with teams i mean it's it's uh it's i think you know look zoom has to figure it out they they've got to they've got to figure out how to use their elevated market cap to transform and expand their tan um but let's let's move on here's the data on pure storage and we've highlighted a number of times this company is showing elevated spending intentions um pure announces earnings in in may ibm uh just announced storage what uh it was way down actually so sort of still pure more positive but i'll comment on a moment but what does this data tell you eric yeah you know right now we started seeing this data last survey in january and that was the first time we really went positive on the data set itself and it's just really uh continuing so we're seeing the strongest year-over-year acceleration in the entire survey um which is a really good spot to be pure is also a leading position in among its sector peers and the other thing that was pretty interesting from the data set is among all storage players pure has the highest positive public cloud correlation so what we can do is we can see which respondents are accelerating their public cloud spend and then cross-reference that with their storage spend and pure is best positioned so as you and i both know uh you know digital transformation cloud spending is increasing you need to be aligned with that and among all storage uh sector peers uh pure is best positioned in all of those in spending intentions and uh adoptions and also public cloud correlation so yet again just another really strong data set and i have an anecdote about why this might be happening because when i saw the date i started asking in my interviews what's going on here and there was one particular person he was a director of cloud operations for a very large public tech company now they have hybrid um but their data center is in colo so they don't own and build their own physical building he pointed out that doran kovid his company wanted to increase storage but he couldn't get into his colo center due to covert restrictions they weren't allowed you had so 250 000 square feet right but you're only allowed to have six people in there so it's pretty hard to get to your rack and get work done he said he would buy storage but then the cola would say hey you got to get it out of here it's not even allowed to sit here we don't want it in our facility so he has all this pent up demand in tandem with pent up demand we have a refresh cycle the ssd you know depreciation uh you know cycle is ending uh you know ssds are moving on and we're starting to see uh new technology in that space nvme sorry for technology increasing in that space so we have pent up demand and we have new technology and that's really leading to a refresh cycle and this particular itdm that i spoke to and many of his peers think this has a long tailwind that uh storage could be a good sector for some time to come that's really interesting thank you for that that extra metadata and i want to do a little deeper dive on on storage so here's a look at storage in the the industry in context and some of the competitive i mean it's been a tough market for the reasons that we've highlighted cloud has been eating away that flash headroom it used to be you'd buy storage to get you know more spindles and more performance and you were sort of forced to buy more flash gave more headroom but it's interesting what you're saying about the depreciation cycle so that's good news so etr combines just for people's benefit here combines primary and secondary storage into a single category so you have companies like pure and netapp which are really pure play you know primary storage companies largely in the sector along with veeam cohesity and rubric which are kind of secondary data or data protection so my my quick thoughts here are that pure is elevated and remains what i call the one-eyed man in the land of the blind but that's positive tailwinds there so that's good news rubric is very elevated but down it's a big it's big competitor cohesity is way off its highs and i have to say to me veeam is like the steady eddy consistent player here they just really continue to do well in the data protection business and and the highs are steady the lows are steady dell is also notable they've been struggling in storage their isg business which comprises service and storage it's been soft during covid and and during even you know this new product rollout so it's notable with this new mid-range they have in particular the uptick in dell this survey because dell so large a small uptick can be very good for dell hpe has a big announcement next month in storage so that might improve based on a product cycle of course the nimble brand continues to do well ibm as i said just announced a very soft quarter you know down double digits again uh and there in a product cycle shift and netapp is that looks bad in the etr data from a spending momentum standpoint but their management team is transforming the company into a cloud play which eric is why it was interesting that pure has the greatest momentum in in cloud accounts so that is sort of striking to me i would have thought it would be netapp so that's something that we want to pay attention to but i do like a lot of what netapp is doing uh and other than pure they're the only big kind of pure play in primary storage so long winded uh uh intro there eric but anything you'd add no actually i appreciate it was long winded i i'm going to be honest with you storage is not my uh my best sector as far as a researcher and analyst goes uh but i actually think a lot of what you said is spot on um you know we do capture a lot of large organizations spend uh we don't capture much mid and small so i think when you're talking about these large large players like netapp and um you know not looking so good all i would state is that we are capturing really big organizations spending attention so these are names that should be doing better to be quite honest uh in those accounts and you know at least according to our data we're not seeing it and it's long-term depression as you can see uh you know netapp now has a negative spending velocity in this analysis so you know i can go dig around a little bit more but right now the names that i'm hearing are pure cohesity uh um i'm hearing a little bit about hitachi trying to reinvent themselves in the space but you know i'll take a wait-and-see approach on that one but uh pure and cohesity are the ones i'm hearing a lot from our community so storage is transforming to cloud as a service you're seeing things like apex and in green lake from dell and hpe and container storage little so not really a lot of people paying attention to it but pure about a company called portworx which really specializes in container storage and there's many startups there they're trying to really change the way david flynn has a startup in that space he's the guy who started fusion i o so a lot a lot of transformations happening here okay i know it's been a long segment we have to summarize and then let me go through a summary and then i'll give you the last word eric so tech spending appears to be tracking us gdp at six to seven percent this talent shortage could be a blocker to accelerating i.t deployments and that's kind of good news actually for for services companies digital transformation you know it's it remains a priority and that bodes well not only for services but automation uipath went public this week we we profiled that you know extensively that went public last wednesday um organizations they've i said at the top face some tough decisions on how to allocate resources you know running the business growing the business transforming the business and we're seeing a bifurcation of spending and some residual effects on vendors and that remains a theme that we're watching eric your final thoughts yeah i'm going to go back quickly to just the overall macro spending because there's one thing i think is interesting to point out and we're seeing a real acceleration among mid and small so it seems like early on in the covid recovery or kovitz spending it was the deep pockets that moved first right fortune 500 knew they had to support remote work they started spending first round that in the fortune 500 we're only seeing about five percent spent but when you get into mid and small organizations that's creeping up to eight nine so i just think it's important to point out that they're playing catch-up right now uh also would point out that this is heavily skewed to north america spending we're seeing laggards in emea they just don't seem to be spending as much they're in a very different place in their recovery and uh you know i do think that it's important to point that out um lastly i also want to mention i know you do such a great job on following a lot of the disruptive vendors that you just pointed out pure doing container storage we also have another bi-annual survey that we do called emerging technology and that's for the private names that's going to be launching in may for everyone out there who's interested in not only the disruptive vendors but also private equity players uh keep an eye out for that we do that twice a year and that's growing in its respondents as well and then lastly one comment because you mentioned the uipath ipo it was really hard for us to sit on the sidelines and not put some sort of rating on their data set but ultimately um the data was muted unfortunately and when you're seeing this kind of hype into an ipo like we saw with snowflake the data was resoundingly strong we had no choice but to listen to what the data said for snowflake despite the hype um we didn't see that for uipath and we wanted to and i'm not making a large call there but i do think it's interesting to juxtapose the two that when snowflake was heading to its ipo the data was resoundingly positive and for uipath we just didn't see that thank you for that and eric thanks for coming on today it's really a pleasure to have you and uh so really appreciate the the uh collaboration and look forward to doing more of these we enjoy the partnership greatly dave we're very very happy to have you in the etr family and looking forward to doing a lot lot more with you in the future ditto okay that's it for today remember these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen all you got to do is search breaking analysis podcast and please subscribe to the series check out etr's website it's etr dot plus we also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com at siliconangle.com you can email me david.velante at siliconangle.com you can dm me on twitter at dvalante or comment on our linkedin post i could see you in clubhouse this is dave vellante for eric porter bradley for the cube insights powered by etr have a great week stay safe be well and we'll see you next time

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston, Bringing you data-driven insights from theCUBE and ETR. This is "Breaking Analysis" with Dave Vellante. >> Recent survey data from ETR shows that enterprise tech spending is tracking with projected US GDP growth at six to 7% this year. Many markers continue to point the way to a strong recovery, including hiring trends and the loosening of frozen IT Project budgets. However skills shortages are blocking progress at some companies which bodes well for an increased reliance on external IT services. Moreover, while there's much talk about the rotation out of work from home plays and stocks such as video conferencing, VDI, and other remote worker tech, we see organizations still trying to figure out the ideal balance between funding headquarter investments that have been neglected and getting hybrid work right. In particular, the talent gap combined with a digital mandate, means companies face some tough decisions as to how to fund the future while serving existing customers and transforming culturally. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon CUBE's Insights powered by ETR. In this "Breaking Analysis", we welcome back Erik Porter Bradley of ETR who will share fresh data, perspectives and insights from the latest survey data. Erik, great to see you. Welcome. >> Thank you very much, Dave. Always good to see you and happy to be on the show again. >> Okay, we're going to share some macro data and then we're going to dig into some highlights from ETR's most recent March COVID survey and also the latest April data. So Erik, the first chart that we want to show, it shows CIO and IT buyer responses to expected IT spend for each quarter of 2021 versus 2020, and you can see here a steady quarterly improvement. Erik, what are the key takeaways, from your perspective? >> Sure, well, first of all, for everyone out there, this particular survey had a record-setting number of participation. We had a 1,500 IT decision makers participate and we had over half of the Fortune 500 and over a fifth of the Global 1000. So it was a really good survey. This is seventh iteration of the COVID Impact Survey specifically, and this is going to transition to an overlarge macro survey going forward so we can continue it. And you're 100% right, what we've been tracking here since March of last year was, how is spending being impacted because of COVID? Where is it shifting? And what we're seeing now finally is that there is a real re-acceleration in spend. I know we've been a little bit more cautious than some of the other peers out there that just early on slapped an eight or a 9% number, but what we're seeing is right now, it's at a midpoint of over six, about 6.7% and that is accelerating. So, we are still hopeful that that will continue, and really, that spending is going to be in the second half of the year. As you can see on the left part of this chart that we're looking at, it was about 1.7% versus 3% for Q1 spending year-over-year. So that is starting to accelerate through the back half. >> I think it's prudent to be cautious (indistinct) 'cause normally you'd say, okay, tech is going to grow a couple of points higher than GDP, but it's really so hard to predict this year. Okay, the next chart here that we want to show you is we asked respondents to indicate what strategies they're employing in the short term as a result of coronavirus and you can see a few things that I'll call out and then I'll ask Erik to chime in. First, there's been no meaningful change of course, no surprise in tactics like remote work and holding travel, however, we're seeing very positive trends in other areas trending downward, like hiring freezes and freezing IT deployments, a downward trend in layoffs, and we also see an increase in the acceleration of new IT deployments and in hiring. Erik, what are your key takeaways? >> Well, first of all, I think it's important to point out here that we're also capturing that people believe remote work productivity is still increasing. Now, the trajectory might be coming down a little bit, but that is really key, I think, to the backdrop of what's happening here. So people have a perception that productivity of remote work is better than hybrid work and that's from the IT decision makers themselves, but what we're seeing here is that, most importantly, these organizations are citing plans to increase hiring, and that's something that I think is really important to point out. It's showing a real following, and to your point right in the beginning of the intro, we are seeing deployments stabilize versus prior survey levels, which means early on, they had no plans to launch new tech deployments, then they said, "Nope, we're going to start." and now that stalling, and I think it's exactly right, what you said, is there's an IT skills shortage. So people want to continue to do IT deployments 'cause they have to support work from home and a hybrid back return to the office, but they just don't have the skills to do so, and I think that's really probably the most important takeaway from this chart, is that stalling and to really ask why it's stalling. >> Yeah, so we're going to get into that for sure, and I think that's a really key point, is that accelerating IT deployments, it looks like it's hit a wall in the survey, but before we get deep into the skills, let's take a look at this next chart, and we're asking people here how our return to the new normal, if you will, and back to offices is going to change spending with on-prem architectures and applications. And so the first two bars, they're Cloud-friendly, if you add them up, it's 63% of the respondents, say that either they'll stay in the Cloud for the most part, or they're going to lower their on-prem spend when they go back to the office. The next three bars are on-prem friendly. If you add those up it's 29% of the respondents say their on-prem spend is going to bounce back to pre-COVID levels or actually increase, and of course, 12% of that number, by the way, say they've never altered their on-prem spend. So Erik, no surprise, but this bodes well for Cloud, but isn't it also a positive for on-prem? We've had this dual funding premise, meaning Cloud continues to grow, but neglected data center spend also gets a boost. What's your thoughts? >> Really, it's interesting. It's people are spending on all fronts. You and I were talking in the prep, it's like we're in battle and I've got naval, I've got air, I've got land, I've got to spend on Cloud and digital transformation, but I also have to spend for on-prem. The hybrid work is here and it needs to be supported. So this is spending is going to increase. When you look at this chart, you're going to see though, that roughly 36% of all respondents say that their spending is going to remain mostly on Cloud. So that is still the clear direction, digital transformation is still happening, COVID accelerated it greatly, you and I, as journalists and researchers already know this is where the puck is going, but spend has always lagged a little bit behind 'cause it just takes some time to get there. Inversely, 27% said that their on-prem spending will decrease. So when you look at those two, I still think that the trend is the friend for Cloud spending, even though, yes, they do have to continue spending on hybrid, some of it's been neglected, there are refresh cycles coming up, so, overall it just points to more and more spending right now. It really does seem to be a very strong backdrop for IT growth. >> So I want to talk a little bit about the ETR taxonomy before we bring up the next chart. We get a lot of questions about this, and of course, when you do a massive survey like you're doing, you have to have consistency for time series, so you have to really think through what the buckets look like, if you will. So this next chart takes a look at the ETR taxonomy and it breaks it down into simple-to-understand terms. So the green is the portion of spending on a vendor's tech within a category that is accelerating, and the red is the portion that is decelerating. So Erik, what are the key messages in this data? >> Well, first of all, Dave, thank you so much for pointing that out. We used to do, just what we call a Net score. It's a proprietary formula that we use to determine the overall velocity of spending. Some people found it confusing. Our data scientists decided to break this sector, break down into what you said, which is really more of a mode analysis. In that sector, how many of the vendors are increasing versus decreasing? So again, I just appreciate you bringing that up and allowing us to explain the reasoning behind our analysis there. But what we're seeing here goes back to something you and I did last year when we did our predictions, and that was that IT services and consulting was going to have a true rebound in 2021, and that's what this is showing right here. So in this chart, you're going to see that consulting and services are really continuing their recovery, 2020 had a lot of the clients and they have the biggest sector year-over-year acceleration sector wise. The other thing to point out on this, which we'll get to again later, is that the inverse analysis is true for video conferencing. We will get to that, so I'm going to leave a little bit of ammunition behind for that one, but what we're seeing here is IT consulting services being the real favorable and video conferencing having a little bit more trouble. >> Great, okay, and then let's take a look at that services piece, and this next chart really is a drill down into that space and emphasizes, Erik, what you were just talking about. And we saw this in IBM's earnings, where still more than 60% of IBM's business comes from services and the company beat earnings, in part, due to services outperforming expectations, I think it had a somewhat easier compare and some of this pent-up demand that we've been talking about bodes well for IBM and other services companies, it's not just IBM, right, Erik? >> No, it's not, but again, I'm going to point out that you and I did point out IBM in our predictions when we did in late December, so, it is nice to see. One of the reasons we don't have a more favorable rating on IBM at the moment is because they are in the process of spinning out this large unit, and so there's a little bit of a corporate action there that keeps us off on the sideline. But I would also want to point out here, Tata, Infosys and Cognizant 'cause they're seeing year-over-year acceleration in both IT consulting and outsourced IT services. So we break those down separately and those are the three names that are seeing acceleration in both of those. So again, at the Tata, Infosys and Cognizant are all looking pretty well positioned as well. >> So we've been talking a little bit about this skills shortage, and this is what's, I think, so hard for forecasters, is that in the one hand, There's a lot of pent up demand, Scott Gottlieb said it's like Woodstock coming out of the COVID, but on the other hand, if you have a talent gap, you've got to rely on external services. So there's a learning curve, there's a ramp up, it's an external company, and so it takes time to put those together. So this data that we're going to show you next, is really important in my view and ties what we were saying at the top. It asks respondents to comment on their staffing plans. The light blue is "We're increasing staff", the gray is "No change" and the magenta or whatever, whatever color that is that sort of purplish color, anyway, that color is decreasing, and the picture is very positive across the board. Full-time staff, offshoring, contract employees, outsourced professional services, all up trending upwards, and this Erik is more evidence of the services bounce back. >> Yeah, it's certainly, yes, David, and what happened is when we caught this trend, we decided to go one level deeper and say, all right, we're seeing this, but we need to know why, and that's what we always try to do here. Data will tell you what's happening, it doesn't always tell you why, and that's one of the things that ETR really tries to dig in with through the insights, interviews panels, and also going direct with these more custom survey questions. So in this instance, I think the real takeaway is that 30% of the respondents said that their outsourced and managed services are going to increase over the next three months. That's really powerful, that's a large portion of organizations in a very short time period. So we're capturing that this acceleration is happening right now and it will be happening in real time, and I don't see it slowing down. You and I are speaking about we have to increase Cloud spend, we have to increase hybrid spend, there are refresh cycles coming up, and there's just a real skills shortage. So this is a long-term setup that bodes very well for IT services and consulting. >> You know, Erik, when I came out of college, somebody told me, "Read, read, read, read as much as you can." And then they said, "Read the Wall Street Journal every day." and so I did it, and I would read the tech magazines and back then it was all paper, and what happens is you begin to connect the dots. And so the reason I bring that up is because I've now taken a bath in the ETR data for the better part of two years and I'm beginning to be able to connect the dots. The data is not always predictive, but many, many times it is. And so this next data gets into the fun stuff where we name names. A lot of times people don't like it because they're either marketing people at organizations, say, "Well, data's wrong." because that's the first thing they do, is attack the data. But you and I know, we've made some really great calls, work from home, for sure, you're talking about the services bounce back. We certainly saw the rise of CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, well before people were talking about that, same thing with video conferencing. And so, anyway, this is the fun stuff and it looks at positive versus negative sentiment on companies. So first, how does ETR derive this data and how should we interpret it, and what are some of your takeaways? >> Sure, first of all, how we derive the data, are systematic survey responses that we do on a quarterly basis, and we standardize those responses to allow for time series analysis so we can do trend analysis as well. We do find that our data, because it's talking about forward-looking spending intentions, is really more predictive because we're talking about things that might be happening six months, three months in the future, not things that a lot of other competitors and research peers are looking at things that already happened, they're looking in the past, ETR really likes to look into the future and our surveys are set up to do so. So thank you for that question, It's a enjoyable lead in, but to get to the fun stuff, like you said, what we do here is we put ratings on the datasets. I do want to put the caveat out there that our spending intentions really only captures top-line revenue. It is not indicative of profit margin or any other line items, so this is only to be viewed as what we are rating the data set itself, not the company, that's not what we're in the game of doing. So I think that's very important for the marketing and the vendors out there themselves when they take a look at this. We're just talking about what we can control, which is our data. We're going to talk about a few of the names here on this highlighted vendors list. One, we're going to go back to that you and I spoke about, I guess, about six months ago, or maybe even earlier, which was the observability space. You and I were noticing that it was getting very crowded, a lot of new entrants, there was a lot of acquisition from more of the legacy or standard players in the space, and that is continuing. So I think in a minute, we're going to move into that observability space, but what we're seeing there is that it's becoming incredibly crowded and we're possibly seeing signs of them cannibalizing each other. We're also going to move on a little bit into video conferencing, where we're capturing some spend deceleration, and then ultimately, we're going to get into a little bit of a storage refresh cycle and talk about that. But yeah, these are the highlighted vendors for April, we usually do this once a quarter and they do change based on the data, but they're not usually whipsawed around, the data doesn't move that quickly. >> Yeah, so you can see some of the big names in the left-hand side, some of the SAS companies that have momentum. Obviously, ServiceNow has been doing very, very well. We've talked a lot about Snowflake, Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler, all very positive, as well as several others. I guess I'd add some things. I mean, I think if thinking about the next decade, it's Cloud, which is not going to be like the same Cloud as the last decade, a lot of machine learning and deep learning and AI and the Cloud is extending to the edge and the data center. Data, obviously, very important, data is decentralized and distributed, so data architectures are changing. A lot of opportunities to connect across Clouds and actually create abstraction layers, and then something that we've been covering a lot is processor performance is actually accelerating relative to Moore's law. It's probably instead of doubling every two years, it's quadrupling every two years, and so that is a huge factor, especially as it relates to powering AI and AI inferencing at the edge. This is a whole new territory, custom Silicon is really becoming in vogue and so something that we're watching very, very closely. >> Yeah, I completely, agree on that and I do think that the next version of Cloud will be very different. Another thing to point out on that too, is you can't do anything that you're talking about without collecting the data and organizations are extremely serious about that now. It seems it doesn't matter what industry they're in, every company is a data company, and that also bodes well for the storage goal. We do believe that there is going to just be a huge increase in the need for storage, and yes, hopefully that'll become portable across multi-Cloud and hybrid as well. >> Now, as Erik said, the ETR data, it's really focused on that top-line spend. So if you look on the right side of that chart, you saw NetApp was kind of negative, was very negative, right? But it is a company that's in transformation now, they've lowered expectations and they've recently beat expectations, that's why the stock has been doing better, but at the macro, from a spending standpoint, it's still stout challenged. So you have big footprint companies like NetApp and Oracle is another one. Oracle's stock is at an all time high, but the spending relative to sort of previous cycles are relative to, like for instance, Snowflake, much, much smaller, not as high growth, but they're managing expectations, they're managing their transition, they're managing profitability. Zoom is another one, Zoom looking negative, but Zoom's got to use its market cap now to transform and increase its TAM. And then Splunk is another one we're going to talk about. Splunk is in transition, it acquired SignalFX, It just brought on this week, Teresa Carlson, who was the head of AWS Public Sector. She's the president and head of sales, so they've got a go-to-market challenge and they brought in Teresa Carlson to really solve that, but Splunk has been trending downward, we called that several quarters ago, Erik, and so I want to bring up the data on Splunk, and this is Splunk, Erik, in analytics, and it's not trending in the right direction. The green is accelerating spend, the red is in the bars is decelerating spend, the top blue line is spending velocity or Net score, and the yellow line is market share or pervasiveness in the dataset. Your thoughts. >> Yeah, first I want to go back. There's a great point, Dave, about our data versus a disconnect from an equity analysis perspective. I used to be an equity analyst, that is not what we do here. And the main word you said is expectations, right? Stocks will trade on how they do compare to the expectations that are set, whether that's buy-side expectations, sell-side expectations or management's guidance themselves. We have no business in tracking any of that, what we are talking about is the top-line acceleration or deceleration. So, that was a great point to make, and I do think it's an important one for all of our listeners out there. Now, to move to Splunk, yes, I've been capturing a lot of negative commentary on Splunk even before the data turns. So this has been a about a year-long, our analysis and review on this name and I'm dating myself here, but I know you and I are both rock and roll fans, so I'm going to point out a Led Zeppelin song and movie, and say that the song remains the same for Splunk. We are just seeing recent spending attentions are taking yet another step down, both from prior survey levels, from year ago levels. This, we're looking at in the analytics sector and spending intentions are decelerating across every single group, and we went to one of our other slide analysis on the ETR+ platform, and you do by customer sub-sample, in analytics, it's dropping in every single vertical. It doesn't matter which one. it's really not looking good, unfortunately, and you had mentioned this is an analytics and I do believe the next slide is an information security. >> Yeah, let's bring that up. >> And unfortunately it's not doing much better. So this is specifically Fortune 500 accounts and information security. There's deep pockets in the Fortune 500, but from what we're hearing in all the insights and interviews and panels that I personally moderate for ETR, people are upset, that they didn't like the strong tactics that Splunk has used on them in the past, they didn't like the ingestion model pricing, the inflexibility, and when alternatives came along, people are willing to look at the alternatives, and that's what we're seeing in both analytics and big data and also for their SIM and security. >> Yeah, so I think again, I pointed Teresa Carlson. She's got a big job, but she's very capable. She's going to meet with a lot of customers, she's a go-to-market pro, she's going to to have to listen hard, and I think you're going to see some changes there. Okay, so sorry, there's more bad news on Splunk. So (indistinct) bring this up is Net score for Splunk and Elastic accounts. This is for analytics, so there's 106 Elastic accounts in the dataset that also have Splunk and it's trending downward for Splunk, that's why it's green for Elastic. And Erik, the important call out from ETR here is how Splunk's performance in Elastic accounts compares with its performance overall. The ELK stack, which obviously Elastic is a big part of that, is causing pain for Splunk, as is Datadog, and you mentioned the pricing issue, well, is it pricing in your assessment or is it more fundamental? >> It's multi-level based on the commentary we get from our ITDMs teams that take the survey. So yes, you did a great job with this analysis. What we're looking at is the spending within shared accounts. So if I have Splunk already, how am I spending? I'm sorry if I have Elastic already, how am I spending on Splunk? And what you're seeing here is it's down to about a 12% Net score, whereas Splunk overall, has a 32% Net score among all of its customers. So what you're seeing there is there is definitely a drain that's happening where Elastic is draining spend from Splunk and usage from them. The reason we used Elastic here is because all observabilities, the whole sector seems to be decelerating. Splunk is decelerating the most, but Elastic is the only one that's actually showing resiliency, so that's why we decided to choose these two, but you pointed out, yes, it's also Datadog. Datadog is Cloud native. They're more dev ops-oriented. They tend to be viewed as having technological lead as compared to Splunk. So a really good point. Dynatrace also is expanding their abilities and Splunk has been making a lot of acquisitions to push their Cloud services, they are also changing their pricing model, right? They're trying to make things a little bit more flexible, moving off ingestion and moving towards consumption. So they are trying, and the new hires, I'm not going to bet against them because the one thing that Splunk has going for them is their market share in our survey, they're still very well entrenched. So they do have a lot of accounts, they have their foothold. So if they can find a way to make these changes, then they will be able to change themselves, but the one thing I got to say across the whole sector is competition is increasing, and it does appear based on commentary and data that they're starting to cannibalize themselves. It really seems pretty hard to get away from that, and you know there are startups in the observability space too that are going to be even more disruptive. >> I think I want to key on the pricing for a moment, and I've been pretty vocal about this. I think the old SAS pricing model where you essentially lock in for a year or two years or three years, pay up front, or maybe pay quarterly if you're lucky, that's a one-way street and I think it's a flawed model. I like what Snowflake's doing, I like what Datadog's doing, look at what Stripe is doing, look at what Twilio is doing, you mentioned it, it's consumption-based pricing, and if you've got a great product, put it out there and damn, the torpedoes, and I think that is a game changer. I look at, for instance, HPE with GreenLake, I look at Dell with Apex, they're trying to mimic that model and apply it to infrastructure, it's much harder with infrastructure 'cause you've got to deploy physical infrastructure, but that is a model that I think is going to change, and I think all of the traditional SAS pricing is going to come under disruption over the next better part of the decades, but anyway, let's move on. We've been covering the APM space pretty extensively, application performance management, and this chart lines up some of the big players here. Comparing Net score or spending momentum from the April 20th survey, the gray is, sorry, the gray is the April 20th survey, the blue is Jan 21 and the yellow is April 21, and not only are Elastic and Datadog doing well relative to Splunk, Erik, but everything is down from last year. So this space, as you point out, is undergoing a transformation. >> Yeah, the pressures are real and it's sort of that perfect storm where it's not only the data that's telling us that, but also the direct feedback we get from the community. Pretty much all the interviews I do, I've done a few panels specifically on this topic, for anyone who wants to dive a little bit deeper. We've had some experts talk about this space and there really is no denying that there is a deceleration in spend and it's happening because that spend is getting spread out among different vendors. People are using a Datadog for certain aspects, they are using Elastic where they can 'cause it's cheaper. They're using Splunk because they have to, but because it's so expensive, they're cutting some of the things that they're putting into Splunk, which is dangerous, particularly on the security side. If I have to decide what to put in and whatnot, that's not really the right way to have security hygiene. So this space is just getting crowded, there's disruptive vendors coming from the emerging space as well, and what you're seeing here is the only bit of positivity is Elastic on a survey-over-survey basis with a slight, slight uptick. Everywhere else, year-over-year and survey-over-survey, it's showing declines, it's just hard to ignore. >> And then you've got Dynatrace who, based on the interviews you do in the (indistinct), one-on-one, or one-on-five, the private interviews that I've been invited to, Dynatrace gets very high scores for their roadmap. You've got New Relic, which has been struggling financially, but they've got a really good product and a purpose-built database just for this APM space, and then of course, you've got Cisco with AppD, which is a strong business for them, and then as you mentioned, you've got startups coming in, you got ChaosSearch, which Ed Walsh is now running, leave the data in place in AWS and really interesting model, Honeycomb is getting really disruptive, Jeremy Burton's company, Observed. So this space is it's becoming jumped ball. >> Yeah, there's a great line that came out of one of them, and that was that the lines are blurring. It used to be that you knew exactly that AppDynamics, what they were doing, it was APM only, or it was logging and monitoring only, and a lot of what I'm hearing from the ITDM experts is that the lines are blurring amongst all of these names. They all have functionality that kind of crosses over each other. And the other interesting thing is it used to be application versus infrastructure monitoring, but as you know, infrastructure is becoming code more and more and more, and as infrastructure becomes code, there's really no difference between application and infrastructure monitoring. So we're seeing a convergence and a blurring of the lines in this space, which really doesn't bode well, and a great point about New Relic, their tech gets good remarks. I just don't know if their enterprise level service and sales is up to snuff right now. As one of my experts said, a CTO of a very large public online hospitality company essentially said that he would be shocked that within 18 months if all of these players are still standalone, that there needs to be some M and A or convergence in this space. >> Okay, now we're going to call out some of the data that really has jumped out to ETR in the latest survey, and some of the names that are getting the most queries from ETR clients, many of which are investor clients. So let's start by having a look at one of the most important and prominent work from home names, Zoom. Let's look at this. Erik is the ride over for Zoom? >> Ah, I've been saying it for a little bit of a time now actually. I do believe it is, and we'll get into it, but again, pointing out, great, Dave, the reason we're presenting today Splunk, Elastic and Zoom, they are the most viewed on the ETR+ platform. Trailing behind that only slightly is F5, I decided not to bring F5 to the table today 'cause we don't have a rating on the data set. So then I went one deep, one below that and it's pure. So the reason we're presenting these to you today is that these are the ones that our clients and our community are most interested in, which is hopefully going to gain interest to your viewers as well. So to get to Zoom, yeah, I call Zoom the pandemic bull market baby. This was really just one that had a meteoric ride. You look back, January in 2020, the stock was at $60 and 10 months later, it was like 580, that's in 10 months. That's cooled down a little bit into the mid-300s, and I believe that cooling down should continue, and the reason why is because we are seeing huge deceleration in our spending intentions. They're hitting all-time lows, it's really just a very ugly dataset. More importantly than the spending intentions, for the first time, we're seeing customer growth in our survey flatten. In the past, we knew that the deceleration of spend was happening, but meanwhile, their new customer growth was accelerating, so it was kind of hard to really make any call based on that. This is the first time we're seeing flattening customer growth trajectory, and that in tandem with just dominance from Microsoft in every sector they're involved in, I don't care if it's IP telephony, productivity apps or the core video conferencing, Microsoft is just dominating. So there's really just no way to ignore this anymore. The data and the commentary state that Zoom is facing some headwinds. >> Well, plus you've pointed out to me that a lot of your private conversations with buyers says that, "Hey, we're, we're using the freebie version of Zoom, and we're not paying them." And that combined with Teams, I mean, it's... I think, look, Zoom, they've got to figure out how to use their elevated market cap to transform and expand their TAM, but let's move on. Here's the data on Pure Storage and we've highlighted a number of times this company is showing elevated spending intentions. Pure announced it's earnings in May, IBM just announced storage, it was way down actually. So still, Pure, more positive, but I'll on that comment in a moment, but what does this data tell you, Erik? >> Yeah, right now we started seeing this data last survey in January, and that was the first time we really went positive on the data set itself, and it's just really continuing. So we're seeing the strongest year-over-year acceleration in the entire survey, which is a really good spot to be. Pure is also a leading position among its sector peers, and the other thing that was pretty interesting from the data set is among all storage players, Pure has the highest positive public Cloud correlation. So what we can do is we can see which respondents are accelerating their public Cloud spend and then cross-reference that with their storage spend and Pure is best positioned. So as you and I both know, digital transformation Cloud spending is increasing, you need to be aligned with that. And among all storage sector peers, Pure is best positioned in all of those, in spending intentions and adoptions and also public Cloud correlation. So yet again, to start another really strong dataset, and I have an anecdote about why this might be happening, because when I saw the data, I started asking in my interviews, what's going on here? And there was one particular person, he was a director of Cloud operations for a very large public tech company. Now, they have hybrid, but their data center is in colo, So they don't own and build their own physical building. He pointed out that during COVID, his company wanted to increase storage, but he couldn't get into his colo center due to COVID restrictions. They weren't allowed. You had 250,000 square feet, right, but you're only allowed to have six people in there. So it's pretty hard to get to your rack and get work done. He said he would buy storage, but then the colo would say, "Hey, you got to get it out of here. It's not even allowed to sit here. We don't want it in our facility." So he has all this pent up demand. In tandem with pent up demand, we have a refresh cycle. The SSD depreciation cycle is ending. SSDs are moving on and we're starting to see a new technology in that space, NVMe sorry, technology increasing in that space. So we have pent up demand and we have new technology and that's really leading to a refresh cycle, and this particular ITDM that I spoke to and many of his peers think this has a long tailwind that storage could be a good sector for some time to come. >> That's really interesting, thank you for that extra metadata. And I want to do a little deeper dive on storage. So here's a look at storage in the industry in context and some of the competitive. I mean, it's been a tough market for the reasons that we've highlighted, Cloud has been eating away that flash headroom. It used to be you'd buy storage to get more spindles and more performance and we're sort of forced to buy more, flash, gave more headroom, but it's interesting what you're saying about the depreciation cycle. So that's good news. So ETR combines, just for people's benefit here, combines primary and secondary storage into a single category. So you have companies like Pure and NetApp, which are really pure play primary storage companies, largely in the sector, along with Veeam, Cohesity and Rubrik, which are kind of secondary data or data protection. So my quick thoughts here that Pure is elevated and remains what I call the one-eyed man in the land of the blind, but that's positive tailwinds there, so that's good news. Rubrik is very elevated but down, it's big competitor, Cohesity is way off its highs, and I have to say to me, Veeam is like the Steady Eddy consistent player here. They just really continue to do well in the data protection business, and the highs are steady, the lows are steady. Dell is also notable, they've been struggling in storage. Their ISG business, which comprises servers and storage, it's been softer in COVID, and during even this new product rollout, so it's notable with this new mid range they have in particular, the uptick in Dell, this survey, because Dell is so large, a small uptick can be very good for Dell. HPE has a big announcement next month in storage, so that might improve based on a product cycle. Of course, the Nimble brand continues to do well, IBM, as I said, just announced a very soft quarter, down double digits again, and they're in a product cycle shift. And NetApp, it looks bad in the ETR data from a spending momentum standpoint, but their management team is transforming the company into a Cloud play, which Erik is why it was interesting that Pure has the greatest momentum in Cloud accounts, so that is sort of striking to me. I would have thought it would be NetApp, so that's something that we want to pay attention to, but I do like a lot of what NetApp is doing, and other than Pure, they're the only big kind of pure play in primary storage. So long-winded, intro there, Erik, but anything you'd add? >> No, actually I appreciate it as long-winded. I'm going to be honest with you, storage is not my best sector as far as a researcher and analyst goes, but I actually think that a lot of what you said is spot on. We do capture a lot of large organizations spend, we don't capture much mid and small, so I think when you're talking about these large, large players like NetApp not looking so good, all I would state is that we are capturing really big organization spending attention, so these are names that should be doing better to be quite honest, in those accounts, and at least according to our data, we're not seeing it in. It's longterm depression, as you can see, NetApp now has a negative spending velocity in this analysis. So, I can go dig around a little bit more, but right now the names that I'm hearing are Pure, Cohesity. I'm hearing a little bit about Hitachi trying to reinvent themselves in the space, but I'll take a wait-and-see approach on that one, but pure Cohesity are the ones I'm hearing a lot from our community. >> So storage is transforming to Cloud as a service. You've seen things like Apex in GreenLake from Dell and HPE and container storage. A little, so not really a lot of people paying attention to it, but Pure bought a company called Portworx which really specializes in container storage, and there's many startups there, they're trying to really change the way. David Flynn, has a startup in that space, he's the guy who started Fusion-io. So a lot of transformations happening here. Okay, I know it's been a long segment, we have to summarize, and let me go through a summary and then I'll give you the last word, Erik. So tech spending appears to be tracking US GDP at 6 to 7%. This talent shortage could be a blocker to accelerating IT deployments, so that's kind of good news actually for services companies. Digital transformation, it remains a priority, and that bodes, well, not only for services, but automation. UiPath went public this week, we profiled that extensively, that went public last Wednesday. Organizations that sit at the top face some tough decisions on how to allocate resources. They're running the business, growing the business, transforming the business, and we're seeing a bifurcation of spending and some residual effects on vendors, and that remains a theme that we're watching. Erik, your final thoughts. >> Yeah, I'm going to go back quickly to just the overall macro spending, 'cause there's one thing I think is interesting to point out and we're seeing a real acceleration among mid and small. So it seems like early on in the COVID recovery or COVID spending, it was the deep pockets that moved first, right? Fortune 500 knew they had to support remote work, they started spending first. Around that in the Fortune 500, we're only seeing about 5% spend, but when you get into mid and small organizations, that's creeping up to eight, nine. So I just think it's important to point out that they're playing catch up right now. I also would point out that this is heavily skewed to North America spending. We're seeing laggards in EMEA, they just don't seem to be spending as much. They're in a very different place in their recovery, and I do think that it's important to point that out. Lastly, I also want to mention, I know you do such a great job on following a lot of the disruptive vendors that you just pointed out, with Pure doing container storage, we also have another bi-annual survey that we do called Emerging Technology, and that's for the private names. That's going to be launching in May, for everyone out there who's interested in not only the disruptive vendors, but also private equity players. Keep an eye out for that. We do that twice a year and that's growing in its respondents as well. And then lastly, one comment, because you mentioned the UiPath IPO, it was really hard for us to sit on the sidelines and not put some sort of rating on their dataset, but ultimately, the data was muted, unfortunately, and when you're seeing this kind of hype into an IPO like we saw with Snowflake, the data was resoundingly strong. We had no choice, but to listen to what the data said for Snowflake, despite the hype. We didn't see that for UiPath and we wanted to, and I'm not making a large call there, but I do think it's interesting to juxtapose the two, that when snowflake was heading to its IPO, the data was resoundingly positive, and for UiPath, we just didn't see that. >> Thank you for that, and Erik, thanks for coming on today. It's really a pleasure to have you, and so really appreciate the collaboration and look forward to doing more of these. >> Yeah, we enjoy the partnership greatly, Dave. We're very happy to have you on the ETR family and looking forward to doing a lot, lot more with you in the future. >> Ditto. Okay, that's it for today. Remember, these episodes are all available as podcasts wherever you listen. All you have to do is search "Breaking Analysis" podcast, and please subscribe to the series. Check out ETR website it's etr.plus. We also publish a full report every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. You can email me, david.vellante@siliconangle.com, you can DM me on Twitter @dvellante or comment on our LinkedIn posts. I could see you in Clubhouse. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Porter Bradley for the CUBE Insights powered by ETR. Have a great week, stay safe, be well and we'll see you next time. (bright music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCUBE conversation. >> Hi everyone, this is Dave Vellante and welcome to this CUBE conversation where we're going to dig in to this, the area of cloud databases. And Gartner just published a series of research in this space. And it's really a growing market, rapidly growing, a lot of new players, obviously the big three cloud players. And with me are three experts in the field, two long time industry analysts. Marc Staimer is the founder, president, and key principal at Dragon Slayer Consulting. And he's joined by David Floyer, the CTO of Wikibon. Gentlemen great to see you. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. >> Good to be here. >> Great to see you too Dave. >> Marc, coming from the great Northwest, I think first time on theCUBE, and so it's really great to have you. So let me set this up, as I said, you know, Gartner published these, you know, three giant tomes. These are, you know, publicly available documents on the web. I know you guys have been through them, you know, several hours of reading. And so, night... (Dave chuckles) Good night time reading. The three documents where they identify critical capabilities for cloud database management systems. And the first one we're going to talk about is, operational use cases. So we're talking about, you know, transaction oriented workloads, ERP financials. The second one was analytical use cases, sort of an emerging space to really try to, you know, the data warehouse space and the like. And, of course, the third is the famous Gartner Magic Quadrant, which we're going to talk about. So, Marc, let me start with you, you've dug into this research just at a high level, you know, what did you take away from it? >> Generally, if you look at all the players in the space they all have some basic good capabilities. What I mean by that is ultimately when you have, a transactional or an analytical database in the cloud, the goal is not to have to manage the database. Now they have different levels of where that goes to as how much you have to manage or what you have to manage. But ultimately, they all manage the basic administrative, or the pedantic tasks that DBAs have to do, the patching, the tuning, the upgrading, all of that is done by the service provider. So that's the number one thing they all aim at, from that point on every database has different capabilities and some will automate a whole bunch more than others, and will have different primary focuses. So it comes down to what you're looking for or what you need. And ultimately what I've learned from end users is what they think they need upfront, is not what they end up needing as they implement. >> David, anything you'd add to that, based on your reading of the Gartner work. >> Yes. It's a thorough piece of work. It's taking on a huge number of different types of uses and size of companies. And I think those are two parameters which really change how companies would look at it. If you're a Fortune 500 or Fortune 2000 type company, you're going to need a broader range of features, and you will need to deal with size and complexity in a much greater sense, and a lot of probably higher levels of availability, and reliability, and recoverability. Again, on the workload side, there are different types of workload and there're... There is as well as having the two transactional and analytic workloads, I think there's an emerging type of workload which is going to be very important for future applications where you want to combine transactional with analytic in real time, in order to automate business processes at a higher level, to make the business processes synchronous as opposed to asynchronous. And that degree of granularity, I think is missed, in a broader view of these companies and what they offer. It's in my view trying in some ways to not compare like with like from a customer point of view. So the very nuance, what you talked about, let's get into it, maybe that'll become clear to the audience. So like I said, these are very detailed research notes. There were several, I'll say analysts cooks in the kitchen, including Henry Cook, whom I don't know, but four other contributing analysts, two of whom are CUBE alum, Don Feinberg, and Merv Adrian, both really, you know, awesome researchers. And Rick Greenwald, along with Adam Ronthal. And these are public documents, you can go on the web and search for these. So I wonder if we could just look at some of the data and bring up... Guys, bring up the slide one here. And so we'll first look at the operational side and they broke it into four use cases. The traditional transaction use cases, the augmented transaction processing, stream/event processing and operational intelligence. And so we're going to show you there's a lot of data here. So what Gartner did is they essentially evaluated critical capabilities, or think of features and functions, and gave them a weighting, or a weighting, and then a rating. It was a weighting and rating methodology. On a s... The rating was on a scale of one to five, and then they weighted the importance of the features based on their assessment, and talking to the many customers they talk to. So you can see here on the first chart, we're showing both the traditional transactions and the augmented transactions and, you know, the thing... The first thing that jumps out at you guys is that, you know, Oracle with Autonomous is off the charts, far ahead of anybody else on this. And actually guys, if you just bring up slide number two, we'll take a look at the stream/event processing and operational intelligence use cases. And you can see, again, you know, Oracle has a big lead. And I don't want to necessarily go through every vendor here, but guys, if you don't mind going back to the first slide 'cause I think this is really, you know, the core of transaction processing. So let's look at this, you've got Oracle, you've got SAP HANA. You know, right there interestingly Amazon Web Services with the Aurora, you know, IBM Db2, which, you know, it goes back to the good old days, you know, down the list. But so, let me again start with Marc. So why is that? I mean, I guess this is no surprise, Oracle still owns the Mission-Critical for the database space. They earned that years ago. One that, you know, over the likes of Db2 and, you know, Informix and Sybase, and, you know, they emerged as number one there. But what do you make of this data Marc? >> If you look at this data in a vacuum, you're looking at specific functionality, I think you need to look at all the slides in total. And the reason I bring that up is because I agree with what David said earlier, in that the use case that's becoming more prevalent is the integration of transaction and analytics. And more importantly, it's not just your traditional data warehouse, but it's AI analytics. It's big data analytics. It's users are finding that they need more than just simple reporting. They need more in-depth analytics so that they can get more actionable insights into their data where they can react in real time. And so if you look at it just as a transaction, that's great. If you're going to just as a data warehouse, that's great, or analytics, that's fine. If you have a very narrow use case, yes. But I think today what we're looking at is... It's not so narrow. It's sort of like, if you bought a streaming device and it only streams Netflix and then you need to get another streaming device 'cause you want to watch Amazon Prime. You're not going to do that, you want one, that does all of it, and that's kind of what's missing from this data. So I agree that the data is good, but I don't think it's looking at it in a total encompassing manner. >> Well, so before we get off the horses on the track 'cause I love to do that. (Dave chuckles) I just kind of let's talk about that. So Marc, you're putting forth the... You guys seem to agree on that premise that the database that can do more than just one thing is of appeal to customers. I suppose that makes, certainly makes sense from a cost standpoint. But, you know, guys feel free to flip back and forth between slides one and two. But you can see SAP HANA, and I'm not sure what cloud that's running on, it's probably running on a combination of clouds, but, you know, scoring very strongly. I thought, you know, Aurora, you know, given AWS says it's one of the fastest growing services in history and they've got it ahead of Db2 just on functionality, which is pretty impressive. I love Google Spanner, you know, love the... What they're trying to accomplish there. You know, you go down to Microsoft is, they're kind of the... They're always good enough a database and that's how they succeed and et cetera, et cetera. But David, it sounds like you agree with Marc. I would say, I would think though, Amazon kind of doesn't agree 'cause they're like a horses for courses. >> I agree. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So I wonder if you could comment on that. >> Well, I want to comment on two vectors. The first vector is that the size of customer and, you know, a mid-sized customer versus a global $2,000 or global 500 customer. For the smaller customer that's the heart of AWS, and they are taking their applications and putting pretty well everything into their cloud, the one cloud, and Aurora is a good choice. But when you start to get to a requirements, as you do in larger companies have very high levels of availability, the functionality is not there. You're not comparing apples and... Apples with apples, it's two very different things. So from a tier one functionality point of view, IBM Db2 and Oracle have far greater capability for recovery and all the features that they've built in over there. >> Because of their... You mean 'cause of the maturity, right? maturity and... >> Because of their... Because of their focus on transaction and recovery, et cetera. >> So SAP though HANA, I mean, that's, you know... (David talks indistinctly) And then... >> Yeah, yeah. >> And then I wanted your comments on that, either of you or both of you. I mean, SAP, I think has a stated goal of basically getting its customers off Oracle that's, you know, there's always this urinary limping >> Yes, yes. >> between the two companies by 2024. Larry has said that ain't going to happen. You know, Amazon, we know still runs on Oracle. It's very hard to migrate Mission-Critical, David, you and I know this well, Marc you as well. So, you know, people often say, well, everybody wants to get off Oracle, it's too expensive, blah, blah, blah. But we talked to a lot of Oracle customers there, they're very happy with the reliability, availability, recoverability feature set. I mean, the core of Oracle seems pretty stable. >> Yes. >> But I wonder if you guys could comment on that, maybe Marc you go first. >> Sure. I've recently done some in-depth comparisons of Oracle and Aurora, and all their other RDS services and Snowflake and Google and a variety of them. And ultimately what surprised me is you made a statement it costs too much. It actually comes in half of Aurora for in most cases. And it comes in less than half of Snowflake in most cases, which surprised me. But no matter how you configure it, ultimately based on a couple of things, each vendor is focused on different aspects of what they do. Let's say Snowflake, for example, they're on the analytical side, they don't do any transaction processing. But... >> Yeah, so if I can... Sorry to interrupt. Guys if you could bring up the next slide that would be great. So that would be slide three, because now we get into the analytical piece Marc that you're talking about that's what Snowflake specialty is. So please carry on. >> Yeah, and what they're focused on is sharing data among customers. So if, for example, you're an automobile manufacturer and you've got a huge supply chain, you can supply... You can share the data without copying the data with any of your suppliers that are on Snowflake. Now, can you do that with the other data warehouses? Yes, you can. But the focal point is for Snowflake, that's where they're aiming it. And whereas let's say the focal point for Oracle is going to be performance. So their performance affects cost 'cause the higher the performance, the less you're paying for the performing part of the payment scale. Because you're paying per second for the CPUs that you're using. Same thing on Snowflake, but the performance is higher, therefore you use less. I mean, there's a whole bunch of things to come into this but at the end of the day what I've found is Oracle tends to be a lot less expensive than the prevailing wisdom. So let's talk value for a second because you said something, that yeah the other databases can do that, what Snowflake is doing there. But my understanding of what Snowflake is doing is they built this global data mesh across multiple clouds. So not only are they compatible with Google or AWS or Azure, but essentially you sign up for Snowflake and then you can share data with anybody else in the Snowflake cloud, that I think is unique. And I know, >> Marc: Yes. >> Redshift, for instance just announced, you know, Redshift data sharing, and I believe it's just within, you know, clusters within a customer, as opposed to across an ecosystem. And I think that's where the network effect is pretty compelling for Snowflake. So independent of costs, you and I can debate about costs and, you know, the tra... The lack of transparency of, because AWS you don't know what the bill is going to be at the end of the month. And that's the same thing with Snowflake, but I find that... And by the way guys, you can flip through slides three and four, because we've got... Let me just take a quick break and you have data warehouse, logical data warehouse. And then the next slide four you got data science, deep learning and operational intelligent use cases. And you can see, you know, Teradata, you know, law... Teradata came up in the mid 1980s and dominated in that space. Oracle does very well there. You can see Snowflake pop-up, SAP with the Data Warehouse, Amazon with Redshift. You know, Google with BigQuery gets a lot of high marks from people. You know, Cloud Data is in there, you know, so you see some of those names. But so Marc and David, to me, that's a different strategy. They're not trying to be just a better data warehouse, easier data warehouse. They're trying to create, Snowflake that is, an incremental opportunity as opposed to necessarily going after, for example, Oracle. David, your thoughts. >> Yeah, I absolutely agree. I mean, ease of use is a primary benefit for Snowflake. It enables you to do stuff very easily. It enables you to take data without ETL, without any of the complexity. It enables you to share a number of resources across many different users and know... And be able to bring in what that particular user wants or part of the company wants. So in terms of where they're focusing, they've got a tremendous ease of use, tremendous focus on what the customer wants. And you pointed out yourself the restrictions there are of doing that both within Oracle and AWS. So yes, they have really focused very, very hard on that. Again, for the future, they are bringing in a lot of additional functions. They're bringing in Python into it, not Python, JSON into the database. They can extend the database itself, whether they go the whole hog and put in transaction as well, that's probably something they may be thinking about but not at the moment. >> Well, but they, you know, they obviously have to have TAM expansion designs because Marc, I mean, you know, if they just get a 100% of the data warehouse market, they're probably at a third of their stock market valuation. So they had better have, you know, a roadmap and plans to extend there. But I want to come back Marc to this notion of, you know, the right tool for the right job, or, you know, best of breed for a specific, the right specific, you know horse for course, versus this kind of notion of all in one, I mean, they're two different ends of the spectrum. You're seeing, you know, Oracle obviously very successful based on these ratings and based on, you know their track record. And Amazon, I think I lost count of the number of data stores (Dave chuckles) with Redshift and Aurora and Dynamo, and, you know, on and on and on. (Marc talks indistinctly) So they clearly want to have that, you know, primitive, you know, different APIs for each access, completely different philosophies it's like Democrats or Republicans. Marc your thoughts as to who ultimately wins in the marketplace. >> Well, it's hard to say who is ultimately going to win, but if I look at Amazon, Amazon is an all-cart type of system. If you need time series, you go with their time series database. If you need a data warehouse, you go with Redshift. If you need transaction, you go with one of the RDS databases. If you need JSON, you go with a different database. Everything is a different, unique database. Moving data between these databases is far from simple. If you need to do a analytics on one database from another, you're going to use other services that cost money. So yeah, each one will do what they say it's going to do but it's going to end up costing you a lot of money when you do any kind of integration. And you're going to add complexity and you're going to have errors. There's all sorts of issues there. So if you need more than one, probably not your best route to go, but if you need just one, it's fine. And if, and on Snowflake, you raise the issue that they're going to have to add transactions, they're going to have to rewrite their database. They have no indexes whatsoever in Snowflake. I mean, part of the simplicity that David talked about is because they had to cut corners, which makes sense. If you're focused on the data warehouse you cut out the indexes, great. You don't need them. But if you're going to do transactions, you kind of need them. So you're going to have to do some more work there. So... >> Well... So, you know, I don't know. I have a different take on that guys. I think that, I'm not sure if Snowflake will add transactions. I think maybe, you know, their hope is that the market that they're creating is big enough. I mean, I have a different view of this in that, I think the data architecture is going to change over the next 10 years. As opposed to having a monolithic system where everything goes through that big data platform, the data warehouse and the data lake. I actually see what Snowflake is trying to do and, you know, I'm sure others will join them, is to put data in the hands of product builders, data product builders or data service builders. I think they're betting that that market is incremental and maybe they don't try to take on... I think it would maybe be a mistake to try to take on Oracle. Oracle is just too strong. I wonder David, if you could comment. So it's interesting to see how strong Gartner rated Oracle in cloud database, 'cause you don't... I mean, okay, Oracle has got OCI, but you know, you think a cloud, you think Google, or Amazon, Microsoft and Google. But if I have a transaction database running on Oracle, very risky to move that, right? And so we've seen that, it's interesting. Amazon's a big customer of Oracle, Salesforce is a big customer of Oracle. You know, Larry is very outspoken about those companies. SAP customers are many, most are using Oracle. I don't, you know, it's not likely that they're going anywhere. My question to you, David, is first of all, why do they want to go to the cloud? And if they do go to the cloud, is it logical that the least risky approach is to stay with Oracle, if you're an Oracle customer, or Db2, if you're an IBM customer, and then move those other workloads that can move whether it's more data warehouse oriented or incremental transaction work that could be done in a Aurora? >> I think the first point, why should Oracle go to the cloud? Why has it gone to the cloud? And if there is a... >> Moreso... Moreso why would customers of Oracle... >> Why would customers want to... >> That's really the question. >> Well, Oracle have got Oracle Cloud@Customer and that is a very powerful way of doing it. Where exactly the same Oracle system is running on premise or in the cloud. You can have it where you want, you can have them joined together. That's unique. That's unique in the marketplace. So that gives them a very special place in large customers that have data in many different places. The second point is that moving data is very expensive. Marc was making that point earlier on. Moving data from one place to another place between two different databases is a very expensive architecture. Having the data in one place where you don't have to move it where you can go directly to it, gives you enormous capabilities for a single database, single database type. And I'm sure that from a transact... From an analytic point of view, that's where Snowflake is going, to a large single database. But where Oracle is going to is where, you combine both the transactional and the other one. And as you say, the cost of migration of databases is incredibly high, especially transaction databases, especially large complex transaction databases. >> So... >> And it takes a long time. So at least a two year... And it took five years for Amazon to actually succeed in getting a lot of their stuff over. And five years they could have been doing an awful lot more with the people that they used to bring it over. So it was a marketing decision as opposed to a rational business decision. >> It's the holy grail of the vendors, they all want your data in their database. That's why Amazon puts so much effort into it. Oracle is, you know, in obviously a very strong position. It's got growth and it's new stuff, it's old stuff. It's, you know... The problem with Oracle it has like many of the legacy vendors, it's the size of the install base is so large and it's shrinking. And the new stuff is.... The legacy stuff is shrinking. The new stuff is growing very, very fast but it's not large enough yet to offset that, you see that in all the learnings. So very positive news on, you know, the cloud database, and they just got to work through that transition. Let's bring up slide number five, because Marc, this is to me the most interesting. So we've just shown all these detailed analysis from Gartner. And then you look at the Magic Quadrant for cloud databases. And, you know, despite Amazon being behind, you know, Oracle, or Teradata, or whomever in every one of these ratings, they're up to the right. Now, of course, Gartner will caveat this and say, it doesn't necessarily mean you're the best, but of course, everybody wants to be in the upper, right. We all know that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you should go by that database, I agree with what Gartner is saying. But look at Amazon, Microsoft and Google are like one, two and three. And then of course, you've got Oracle up there and then, you know, the others. So that I found that very curious, it is like there was a dissonance between the hardcore ratings and then the positions in the Magic Quadrant. Why do you think that is Marc? >> It, you know, it didn't surprise me in the least because of the way that Gartner does its Magic Quadrants. The higher up you go in the vertical is very much tied to the amount of revenue you get in that specific category which they're doing the Magic Quadrant. It doesn't have to do with any of the revenue from anywhere else. Just that specific quadrant is with that specific type of market. So when I look at it, Oracle's revenue still a big chunk of the revenue comes from on-prem, not in the cloud. So you're looking just at the cloud revenue. Now on the right side, moving to the right of the quadrant that's based on functionality, capabilities, the resilience, other things other than revenue. So visionary says, hey how far are you on the visionary side? Now, how they weight that again comes down to Gartner's experts and how they want to weight it and what makes more sense to them. But from my point of view, the right side is as important as the vertical side, 'cause the vertical side doesn't measure the growth rate either. And if we look at these, some of these are growing much faster than the others. For example, Snowflake is growing incredibly fast, and that doesn't reflect in these numbers from my perspective. >> Dave: I agree. >> Oracle is growing incredibly fast in the cloud. As David pointed out earlier, it's not just in their cloud where they're growing, but it's Cloud@Customer, which is basically an extension of their cloud. I don't know if that's included these numbers or not in the revenue side. So there's... There're a number of factors... >> Should it be in your opinion, Marc, would you include that in your definition of cloud? >> Yeah. >> The things that are hybrid and on-prem would that cloud... >> Yes. >> Well especially... Well, again, it depends on the hybrid. For example, if you have your own license, in your own hardware, but it connects to the cloud, no, I wouldn't include that. If you have a subscription license and subscription hardware that you don't own, but it's owned by the cloud provider, but it connects with the cloud as well, that I would. >> Interesting. Well, you know, to your point about growth, you're right. I mean, it's probably looking at, you know, revenues looking, you know, backwards from guys like Snowflake, it will be double, you know, the next one of these. It's also interesting to me on the horizontal axis to see Cloud Data and Databricks further to the right, than Snowflake, because that's kind of the data lake cloud. >> It is. >> And then of course, you've got, you know, the other... I mean, database used to be boring, so... (David laughs) It's such a hot market space here. (Marc talks indistinctly) David, your final thoughts on all this stuff. What does the customer take away here? What should I... What should my cloud database management strategy be? >> Well, I was positive about Oracle, let's take some of the negatives of Oracle. First of all, they don't make it very easy to rum on other platforms. So they have put in terms and conditions which make it very difficult to run on AWS, for example, you get double counts on the licenses, et cetera. So they haven't played well... >> Those are negotiable by the way. Those... You bring it up on the customer. You can negotiate that one. >> Can be, yes, They can be. Yes. If you're big enough they are negotiable. But Aurora certainly hasn't made it easy to work with other plat... Other clouds. What they did very... >> How about Microsoft? >> Well, no, that is exactly what I was going to say. Oracle with adjacent workloads have been working very well with Microsoft and you can then use Microsoft Azure and use a database adjacent in the same data center, working with integrated very nicely indeed. And I think Oracle has got to do that with AWS, it's got to do that with Google as well. It's got to provide a service for people to run where they want to run things not just on the Oracle cloud. If they did that, that would in my term, and my my opinion be a very strong move and would make make the capabilities available in many more places. >> Right. Awesome. Hey Marc, thanks so much for coming to theCUBE. Thank you, David, as well, and thanks to Gartner for doing all this great research and making it public on the web. You can... If you just search critical capabilities for cloud database management systems for operational use cases, that's a mouthful, and then do the same for analytical use cases, and the Magic Quadrant. There's the third doc for cloud database management systems. You'll get about two hours of reading and I learned a lot and I learned a lot here too. I appreciate the context guys. Thanks so much. >> My pleasure. All right, thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for theCUBE. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> From theCube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from theCube and ETR, this is breaking analysis with Dave Vellante. >> As we reported in our last episode tech spending overall continues to be significantly muted relative to 2019. Now, our forecast continues to project a 4 to 5% decline in 2020 spending, and a tepid 2% increase in 2021. This is based on the latest data from ETR surveys of CIOs and other it buyers. Nonetheless, there continues to be some sectors and vendor bright spots in what is generally an overall challenging market. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights powered by ETR. My name is Dave Vellante, and in this breaking analysis, we welcome back Erik Bradley from ETR to provide added color from my solo flight from last time. Erik always a pleasure to see you, thanks so much for coming back in theCube. >> I always enjoy it. Happy Friday Dave, We're almost through. >> Happy Friday. They just blend together. Guys, if you would bring up the first slide, I just want to summarize the situation. This is from ETR's latest findings, I just extracted some. And I want to go down very quickly, Erik, and then get your take. As I said, technology buyers expect the downturn for 2020, but this quarter, coming into fourth quarter, minus 3.2% was ETR's forecast, that's year to year spending decline and a 2% uptick in 2021. Now, Erik this is slightly, what I call it slightly less bad, relative to last quarter. So sequentially it's less bad. >> Yeah, there's a couple of things to break down there. So first to begin with, beginning of the year, when we launched not only our spending attention surveys, we did a simultaneous COVID impact survey, and that's where we caught originally a 5% decline was expected. So although negative 3.2 was probably the worst quarter over quarter lapse we've seen, as a matter of fact it is the lowest drop we've had theory, going into 2021, the IT people that we've actually surveyed are actually expecting a 2% increase. So there is a reason for optimism, but if we're looking at the current data set, there is no doubt the picture remains a little bit bleak. We can go into different sectors and vendors where they are impacted, but I think maybe if you're willing, I think it might be worth just sort of breaking down the demographics of the survey a little bit and how we got to that 3.2% survey over survey decline. >> Yeah, and we have a chart on that. But before we get that, I just wanted to lay out some of the other key points of your analysis. The other one, which is we talked about this in the last episode, we call it a slow thawing. Hiring an IT project freezes are thawing, with fewer companies expecting layoffs. So that gives us some bright spots, but there are definitely a widening bifurcation between vendors gaining share and those who are donating share. And then, you know, again, relative to last quarter survey we're seeing government and education and fortune 100, you guys are showing the deepest cuts from the last survey. Where's IT Telco, retail and retail consumer are showing a little bit more stability. And then of course you talked about the work from home which we've covered doubling from pre pandemic. Pretty interesting findings from your COVID survey. >> Yeah, it's a fantastic, and this is the fourth iteration of this survey that we've done now. So we've been able to track it very quickly, launched it in the field when we realized the true impact of what was happening in early March. This is our fourth version, and we've been able to track it overall. Yes, without a doubt government, education are being the biggest impact, the biggest declines without a doubt. Now, clearly the caveat to that is if there's any sort of government policy maybe those could actually help a little bit, but for right now, those are getting hit the most. Retail consumer is fairing much, much better, and the IT companies, as generally, we're seeing in the market as well, they can, you know, are still spending money and still moving. But the reason for optimism actually comes from multiple metrics. And I will say, we have caught a bottom on all of the negative metrics at this point. Now, who knows what will happen the next time we do it, right? The world is always fluid. But based on this, this is our fourth iteration of this survey, whether it be IT projects being frozen, whether it be layoffs, whether it be just overall expected budget increase, everything looks like it is already bottomed and there is some optimism going into 2021. Of course, the January survey that we launched will be able to corroborate that hopefully, and we'll have much more granularity into those findings at that time. >> Great. Okay, now let's get into the demographics that you referenced for. This next slide shows those. The record number of respondents Erik, congratulations on that. And so take us through the makeup of the survey respondents guys, if you bring up this next slide. >> Yeah. So for the October 20, what we're really doing here is we're asking the it decision makers to update the survey responses they gave us in July. We're basically saying, okay, you thought you were going to spend this in the back half, what did you actually do? And in this particular survey we had 1,438 qualified IT decision makers get involved. That's 60% of the fortune 100 is represented, almost a quarter of the global 1000, and we had about 35% of the fortune 500. The industry breakdown is all across the board, whether it's financials/insurance, IT/Telco, we have industrials/manufacturing, we have energy/utilities, we have government. So it's really a great cross section. Now, geographically, that tends to be about 80% North America. We are heavily concentrated in that area, but we also have a 12% EMEA, 5% APAC and remainder is Latin AmErika. If there were any visibility concerns at all would probably be in China. It's just not that easy to get qualified IT decision makers from China to respond to us. But that's an area we are working on going forward, but overall a huge survey response, certainly meaningful end, and we're very happy with the data that we collected this time. >> Okay, thank you for that. Now, I want to go into the next graphic here, and I want to look at how net score has changed over time. And I want to remind people that, so this slide basically goes back to 2016, and shows some ebbs and flows and then some real strength coming in, 'cause you see 17 and 18, and you may forget going into Q4'19 and into 2020, the ETR data was telling us, hey, things are going to slow down a little bit. It's hard to remember that. And so, and the thinking back then was okay, last couple of years, people have spent a lot on digital transformation, and would a lot of experimentation, they were hanging on to their legacy stuff, and with all that technical debt and they were experimenting with a lot of the new technologies. And what we saw coming into Q4 2019 was people beginning to unplug some of that and making bets basically, unplugging some of the legacy stuff. Oh, and by the way, maybe saying hey, the new stuff that we tried didn't work, we're going to do less experimentation. So we saw a somewhat depressed next score, and you can see that in here coming into 2020, and then of course COVID hit and you can see the bottom fell out. But wow what a drop, I mean, that says it all, a lot different than what we're seeing in the stock market. >> Yeah, first of all, just a great recap on what we caught last year. Really well done. So at that time there was concurrent spending. There was a lot of proof of concepts being done. People weren't exactly sure how to transition off, how fast they were going to get into the cloud, how fast they could make that digital transformation. And they were kicking the tires on everything, and there was a ton of spend. It was the golden era of IT spending at the time. But we did catch that some of that was coming down. So what we will see now is obviously that spending was going to cool off either way, but now with the global pandemic impact hitting what we've caught, of course, is the biggest survey over survey decline. 3.2% was matched at one other point in our survey's history, but that was at very elevated spendings, so that drop was not as meaningful. When we're seeing from a more baseline that drop right now is extremely seasonal, and extremely meaningful, my apologies. Now, I do want to make a quick caveat that usually the October survey catches some seasonality, because a lot of people have expected spend in the back half that doesn't always materialize. But make no mistake, this is way beyond our normal seasonality. This trough is a real metric. >> Yeah, and when I talk to buyers and I talk to even salespeople, for if you want the truth, you'll talk to salespeople, if you can get the truth out of them, which you usually can. Sales and engineering, that's really if we want to know what's happening in companies, but they will tell you that their visibility, same with the buyers, they're saying, look, I think I'm going to spend and I think I'm going to get approval on it, but the normal buying signals, you kind of have to take with a grain of salt because it's, the buyers don't know the sellers don't really know. I mean, they think they've got reasonable visibility but things change so fast as we know. So you have to be really, really careful. All right, let's drill in to some of the sectors, and that's really the next two slides, guys, if you bring up the first of the next two. So this shows the change from July to October. So the last survey to this survey, 2020, and the green bars of July, yellow bars are October. And you can see right away, jumps out at you, container orchestration and ML and AI, and we've got some other data on this jump right off the charts. They're still elevated levels, so that's a real positive. You can see AI actually, maybe waning a bit, and I think that's probably, Erik, is a lot of it is just, you don't even see it, it's just embedded. But take us through this first chart and then we'll dig into some of these sectors. What are you seeing? >> Yeah, certainly. So from a sector breakdown point of view, that lesson, none of them were spared, let's be honest, right? There's a slow down in spending. But containers and containerization were by far the most stable. So clearly this is a priority. People are recognizing that they need to go that route. Nobody wants to be tied to any particular cloud provider. So container and containers are moving the best, they are looking about as stable as they can be. When we drill down a little bit further in there, we're seeing Kubernetes of course, Microsoft and AWS really supporting in that sector. Now, when you talk about the ones that had the biggest survey over survey declines, we are looking at ML/AI, but like you said, still elevated spend. So even though there was a big survey over survey decline, the overall spending intentions are healthy. Nobody is getting away from it. Also to corroborate that in the COVID impact study, we asked people, given the current situation where their priorities are, and unfortunately in that area ML/AI and the RPA we're actually not positioned as well. So it actually corroborates the COVID impact survey, corroborates what we're seeing here in our larger intentions. Now, when you look at ML/AI, Microsoft is still very well suited in that area. Virtualization was another big area that dropped, which was interesting because I think the immediate COVID impact and the work from home, we saw a little spike there. I think we definitely saw companies like Citrix, right? F5 and Nutanix and AWS workspaces. They all had a really good impact, positive, when we first hit, but virtualization is dropping quite a bit there. And again, no surprise, Microsoft is well positioned as well. And then lastly, enterprise content management also had a big, big drop-off, and there you're looking at Adobe Box, Open Text, those are the type of companies that seem to be having the biggest survey over survey decline and ECM. >> Yeah. And I just want to make a comment on this first of the two slides. Is you see security, it's okay, there's a little bit of decline, but there's the story of the haves and the have nots. If you're an end point security, you're in cloud security, you're in identity access management, there's some real tailwinds for you right now. You're seeing that with Octa, CrowdStrike and Zscaler, SailPoint, you know, had a really good quarter. So that's the story of kind of the, a mixed bag. If you go to the next slide, guys, what jumps out here on the second sector breakdown, and Erik you alluded to this as RPA, very elevated, although down, somewhat still, again, very elevated and cloud computing. I mean, that's all everybody wants to talk about. This is a large market that continues to grow very, very fast. >> Yeah. It's a A2 cloud, right? I mean, even the cloud, we're kind of shocked and we saw that too. But, you know, again, it's still a healthy survey at 4Cloud. Spending is still there, but what we are seeing is a pretty big survey over-serving decline that is probably, if you had to translate that, it's going to show slower growth. Still double digit growth, but slower than we expected. And interestingly in the cloud, again, Microsoft is very steady, GCP steady. We saw AWS soften a little bit, and that's something that I think we need to keep an eye on there, we are seeing some softening trends. IBM and Oracle, unfortunately, no matter how hard they push, it doesn't really seem to be making a dent, at least with our it decision makers that respond to the survey. But one thing that was interesting was VMware on AWS actually looked much, much better than VMware alone. So on the cloud side, those are pretty interesting takeaways. >> Yeah, we talked about that a couple of episodes back as the, well, couple of things to pick up on your comments. You mentioned IBM and Oracle, they're just so large, they're growing businesses are not growing fast enough and they're not large enough to offset the decline and their declining businesses. Yet they're huge, they have, they throw off a lot of cash and so maybe their stock's not going through the roof, but they're pretty stable companies from that regard. I wonder, maybe AWS is starting to hit some of those, the law of large numbers. I mean, it's still growing very, very rapidly for a 45 plus billion dollar organization, still growing well into the double digits, so it just gets harder. And then, but the other thing I wanted to pick up on is you mentioned VMware cloud on AWS, we're seeing those hybrid solutions really start to pick up the multi-cloud solutions, which I was a real skeptic a couple of years ago 'cause it wasn't really real, now becoming real. And I think when you talk to, you know this well from your Ven discussions, people are looking at options for cloud. They want multiple clouds, the right horse for the right course, they want to reduce their risk, they want to ensure exit strategies and some clouds are just better at some things than others. >> Yeah, completely agree. And as you know, I do interview a lot of these IT decision makers that we survey to get a little more granularity and to dig into the details, and you and I just, great example. We did a session on Data Warehousing as a Service, we're at Snowflake. And the main reason that people love them is 'cause they have cloud portability. They can move across multiple clouds. Nobody wants to be tied to one cloud provider, they need to be agnostic. And if you look at, you know, something like Microsoft, right? Their Software Suite is fantastic. So most people are going to be aligned for them. They provide great active directory, the enterprise applications are absolutely incredible. But if you're looking to do straight ML/AI or straight data warehousing, maybe AWS Redshift, maybe Google Big Query might be a better fit for you. There's no reason to be tied into one. So what we're seeing more and more is those vendors that offer cloud portability or hybrid availability to do some on-prem for security, some cloud, they're really taking a step up in our recent surveys. Another comment you made Dave, if I can just backtrack to it is, you kind of mentioned how some of the vendors are taking more and more share. We are continuing to see this theme of a widening bifurcation, where although the overall spend that pie is shrinking, the leading vendors are taking much bigger slices from that pie. And that is continuing across the entire year. >> Yeah, definitely a time of disruption. So thank you for bringing that up. Okay, the next graphic I want to show you is actually a motion graphic, and what we're showing here is one of our favorite views. On the vertical axis you've got net score, remember, net score, essentially ETR, every quarter like clockwork asks customers are you spending more you're spending less, it's more granular than that, but essentially they subtract the red from the green and that leaves you with net score. So the higher the net score the better on the vertical axis, on the on the horizontal is axis is market share, its presence, its pervasiveness in the dataset. So you want to be up into the right, of course, like all these charts and XY's. And what we're showing here is, we go back to October, 2018. Remember this is the October survey and you can see the movement and what's happening. And a couple of points here really is one is container orchestration and container platforms, cloud, RPA, ML, they all stand out. And now we, you can see the the context of their "market share" as well, and you see that bunching, you see some of the Legacy stuff, the more mature markets like storage and PC tablets and laptops. They don't have a huge next or outsourcing, not a big net score, but they're there and they're kind of bunched up, down in the middle. But you can also see how they've slowly got depressed over time, even the elevated ones. Nobody in the recent survey is over a 60% net net score. I think you guys said that the overall net score was the lowest in history. So this is just a good way to visualize the various sectors and how spending, momentum and share is shifting. >> Yeah, that's a very good point, and you are right. The overall survey net score is actually 25.3% and it is the lowest ever we've captured. So that actually is translating into what we expect to be single digit declines in overall growth in IT budgets, which again is in line with what we've been saying. We caught early on about negative 5 1/2, that is improved now it's in this quarter to about negative 3 1/2, but if you look at the mid point here, we're very clearly in mid single digit declines, and the entire area is being impacted. Now, there are certainly some areas that are more important than others, there's no doubt about it. But yeah, outsourcing is one you mentioned, absolutely getting decimated. Nobody really has the money right now to be doing IT outsourcing, that's just not a priority. The priority is remote connectivity, remote security, how do I get identity access and governance to make sure that my employees are doing what they're supposed to be doing, even though they're not on my network anymore. All of those things are continuing. And as you saw on the COVID-19 Impact Survey, they're not going away. You had mentioned on a solo session you did, I think a week ago, where you have cited our data saying that permanent workforce is going to double from where it was in pre-pandemic levels. So that means a lot of the people that slapped a bandaid on their networking to get their employees to work from home, that bandaid solution is not going to work. They need to find one that's permanent now. So the areas of spend, although it is declining, there are very clear delineations of where that spend is going. >> Yeah, I want to just pick up on something you said about the work from home doubling, 'cause I've shared that data with some folks and had some discussions. We're talking about people that work from home, not come in a couple of times a week, this is the work from home component. And so I think the hybrid is going to increase as well, but the hardcore work from home, I think it was mid-teens, 16% or something doubling in the post pandemic was the expectation. And again, I just wanted to sort of clarify that I think your data there is quite good. How about some of the vendors? I think, now that's Snowflakes public, you guys may be doing some forecasts there. Let's start there. >> Sure, yeah. So it's fun to talk about the high level, right? And talk about the sector breakdown and where we're seeing things, but at the end of the day, people just love to talk about the individual vendors. So there's a few things that were interesting, yeah. We were able to finally come out with a real viewpoint on Snowflake now that they're out in public, and we kind of launched with a positive to neutral viewpoint. I don't think there's going to be anything here that shocks you. We're absolutely outstanding expansion rates. All the commentary we get from our CIOs are just incredible, the market share gains are about as high as you're going to see in the survey, they are extremely well positioned to continue executing, and this is not in the data set, but we also know that that management team is fantastic. I would think that they had set themselves up coming out as a public company not to completely disappoint. And everything in our data set shows absolutely no reason why they would disappoint. >> Well, and so you may be wondering folks, like, well, wait a minute, with all that great news, I mean, how could they be positive to neutral. Maybe it maybe neutral, the reason is because they have a 66, roughly $66 billion valuation. And what ETR is doing is they're taking that into consideration as well relative to, so they're looking at the street forecast, the consensus forecast and saying, okay, how does the data line up to that? And so a lot of people are asking the question, can Snowflake live up to its valuation. I don't think there's any lack of total available market here. I mean, it's very, very large, the data market, it's enormous. And as, just a plug for an event that we're doing on November 17th, it starts, we're doing a global event, and we're going to be looking at this issue very closely, interviewing customers and partners and executives and, you know, you can judge for yourself if you think the vision, they're putting out this vision of a data cloud. You see this, if this vision, you think is going to have a big enough term that they can grow into, and as Erik said, great management team, will they be able to execute? Decide for yourself, but very exciting IPO obviously that we've tracked quite closely. Elastic is another one that you guys have followed quite closely. I know you've got some data there that you want to share as well. >> Yeah, I certainly do. The APM spaces is really interesting. One last quick point on Snowflake. We don't have regression forecasts on them, because they haven't been out public long enough for us to be able to do that sort of back-testing. So without that data science behind us, we will never really go with a full positive. So to your point that saying positive to neutral is not negative or neutral stance whatsoever, it's just without that regression support behind our data, that's what we just tend to do. Because at the end of the day, we're a data science company, so.. >> Yeah. You need some some history there to really make those calls. But yeah, let's talk about Elastic. >> Yeah, sure, you got it. So recently I hosted a panel on the APM and monitoring space. It was incredibly enlightening. It's a very crowded space that our CIOs told us is right for disruption. And it ended up being a little bit of an avalanche in our data, because it wasn't just Elastic, but it was also Splunk and Dynatrace that we ended up putting ratings on. Now, Elastic as we know is an open source model, a freemium to pay type of model. And we normally try to stay away from open source models, 'cause it's kind of hard to predict how that converts to revenue, but the data was so strong that again, we came out with a positive to neutral rating on Elastic. It was based on just elevated spend levels across, there was almost no negativity, we weren't seeing any decrease or replacement indications, really solid positioning in the fortune 500 accounts, which I was a bit surprised about. And the other thing here is that Elastic tends to be really expanding in the information security. This is no longer just about monitoring and logging, they are becoming a very relevant infosec play and they are breathing down the necks of Splunk. They can do the same thing and they can do it much cheaper. The caveat being, you need to have the IT and the human skillset to run Elastic. So it really comes down to, are you sophisticated enough with the human capital management to run it? But everything we saw here just incredibly improved competitive positioning, they actually had the number one net score in all of information security in any vendor that had over 50 citations. It was just too hard to ignore, we had to come out with a positive neutral. >> That's super interesting Erik, and of course, yeah, we covered that space recently. Everybody wants a piece of Splunk and have for a number of years, but, you know, you see in Datadog come after it, then you see some startups getting into the space. Jeremy Burton launched his company, Observe, Honeycomb is in that, they kind of coined the term observability. Kakao Search is another one. Ed Wall's joined that company, and so you see a lot of folks really going after that space, why not? I mean, it's such a successful company. The pickup of SignalFX filling some holes, we talked about that on the Ven, and it's a very interesting space, and one I think has some somewhat depressed levels from a net score standpoint but as some of your Ven observers said, this market is here to stay and it becoming much more important as part of digital transformation, as part of a dashboard of digital transformation. >> Yeah. Coining that term observability really just hit it on the nail on the head. When we just talked about monitoring an application, that's not what it's about anymore, right? You need to have observability in multi hybrid cloud environments, whether it's your infrastructure or people actually writing code for your application. And so that single pane of glass, end-to-end is the holy grail of monitoring, and that's what these guys are pushing for. The New Relics, the Datadog's, the Elastics, they're getting there more quickly than Splunk and Dynatrace or AppDynamics from Cisco are. That's what the people are telling us, the ones I speak to, the CIOs that use it in the field. They're getting there more quickly and they're doing it more cheaply. Now, this is not to say Splunk is not a great company, we know it is. And also Splunk has more API integration into any ecosystem you want. They're not getting pulled or ripped out anytime soon, we're not saying that. But when we look at our data, we had no choice but to come out with a neutral to negative. They are deteriorating and their spending intentions, their customer growth is completely stalling, we're not seeing any more increased perversion in our dataset or among customers. There just wasn't really anything we could really do. Looking at the data set and that's what we do, we had no choice. There's a lot of skepticism heading into the back half of this year and next year, there's so much competition coming after them, and some of these people are just giving it away for free. It's pretty hard to compete with free. >> Yeah, free is very powerful. All right, speaking of skepticism, Rackspace had their IPO, what do you see in there? >> Oh man, I'm not really sure how to start there. But listen, I don't want to beat a company while it's down, but their net scores are actually negative. I think at the negative 20% range, if I could possibly recall that. But listen, Rackspace, when they were private, let's give them some credit, right? They decided to go out and buy a bunch of different managed service providers, they tried to align themselves with AWS, with Oracle. So they've got this whole bundle thing right now that isn't just straight cloud computing anymore. We'll see if that plays out. But clearly we saw that the IPO was not a very special IPO. In this environment the valuations in the technology stocks being very elevated, having a negative IPO was very telling. But sticking straight to the data, basically we're seeing negativity across several years, it's the worst position vendor in cloud computing that we even cover. We just had to take a look at it right now, and just be honest and say according to the data, this is a very negative data set, there just isn't much we can do about it. Wish them the best, I hope their MSP revenue starts kicking in, and hopefully it'll change. But for right now the snapshot of our data was quite dire. >> Okay, Erik, Well, thanks so much. So let's update folks, so the ETR is exiting, it's quiet, period, which I love, because that means I can have the data and share with you. So we'll be updating our cloud scenarios, security, automation, our infrastructure, and many other segments as well. Certainly the data piece, we've been tracking snowflake very closely. And of course, Erik, you guys are already gearing up for your January survey. So, you know... >> It never ends Dave. And I've... >> Well, I got a really... I've got a sizzle panel that I'm doing next week as well, where we got four sizzles talking about security threats and priorities for 2021. So as soon as I wrap that, you'll be the first one I get my summary to. >> Oh, those are great. I mean, there's such deep dives with practitioners, and it's just an open discussion. So Erik Bradley, thanks so much for coming back in theCube. >> Have a great weekend Dave. >> Yeah, you too. And thank you for watching everybody this episode of Cube Insights powered by ETR. Go to etr.plus, that's where all the survey action is. I publish every week on wikibon.com and siliconangle.com. All these episodes are available on podcast. Wherever you watch, you can DM me, I'm @DVelllante. I post on LinkedIn, you can comment there or email me @david.vellanteat, @siliconangle.com. This is Dave Vellante for Erik Bradley. Thanks for watching everybody, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube with digital coverage of enterprise data automation, an event Siri's brought to you by Iot. Tahoe, everybody, We're back. We're talking about enterprise data automation. The hashtag is data automated, and we're going to really dig into data migrations, data, migrations. They're risky. They're time consuming, and they're expensive. Yousef con is here. He's the head of partnerships and alliances at I o ta ho coming again from London. Hey, good to see you, Seth. Thanks very much. >>Thank you. >>So your role is is interesting. We're talking about data migrations. You're gonna head of partnerships. What is your role specifically? And how is it relevant to what we're gonna talk about today? >>Uh, I work with the various businesses such as cloud companies, systems integrators, companies that sell operating systems, middleware, all of whom are often quite well embedded within a company. I t infrastructures and have existing relationships. Because what we do fundamentally makes migrating to the cloud easier on data migration easier. A lot of businesses that are interested in partnering with us. Um, we're interested in parting with, So >>let's set up the problem a little bit. And then I want to get into some of the data. You know, I said that migration is a risky, time consuming, expensive. They're they're often times a blocker for organizations to really get value out of data. Why is that? >>Uh, I think I mean, all migrations have to start with knowing the facts about your data, and you can try and do this manually. But when that you have an organization that may have been going for decades or longer, they will probably have a pretty large legacy data estate so that I have everything from on premise mainframes. They may have stuff which is probably in the cloud, but they probably have hundreds, if not thousands of applications and potentially hundreds of different data stores. Um, now they're understanding of what they have. Ai's often quite limited because you can try and draw a manual maps, but they're outdated very quickly. Every time that data changes the manual that's out of date on people obviously leave organizations over time, so that kind of tribal knowledge gets built up is limited as well. So you can try a Mackel that manually you might need a db. Hey, thanks. Based analyst or ah, business analyst, and they won't go in and explore the data for you. But doing that manually is very, very time consuming this contract teams of people, months and months. Or you can use automation just like what's the bank with Iot? And they managed to do this with a relatively small team. Are in a timeframe of days. >>Yeah, we talked to Paul from Webster Bank. Awesome discussion. So I want to dig into this migration and let's let's pull up graphic it will talk about. We'll talk about what a typical migration project looks like. So what you see here it is. It's very detailed. I know it's a bit of an eye test, but let me call your attention to some of the key aspects of this Ah, and then use. If I want you to chime in. So at the top here, you see that area graph that's operational risk for a typical migration project, and you can see the timeline and the the milestones. That blue bar is the time to test so you can see the second step data analysis talking 24 weeks so, you know, very time consuming. And then Let's not get dig into the stuff in the middle of the fine print, but there's some real good detail there, but go down the bottom. That's labor intensity in the in the bottom and you can see high is that sort of brown and and you could see a number of data analysis, data staging data prep, the trial, the implementation post implementation fixtures, the transition toe B A B a year, which I think is business as usual. Those are all very labor intensive. So what do you take aways from this typical migration project? What do we need to know yourself? >>I mean, I think the key thing is, when you don't understand your data upfront, it's very difficult to scope to set up a project because you go to business stakeholders and decision makers and you say Okay, we want to migrate these data stores. We want to put them in the cloud most often, but actually, you probably don't know how much data is there. You don't necessarily know how many applications that relates to, you know, the relationships between the data. You don't know the flow of the data. So the direction in which the data is going between different data stores and tables, so you start from a position where you have pretty high risk and alleviate that risk. You could be stacking project team of lots and lots of people to do the next base, which is analysis. And so you set up a project which has got a pretty high cost. The big projects, more people, the heavy of governance, obviously on then there, then in the phase where they're trying to do lots and lots of manual analysis manage. That, in a sense, is, as we all know, on the idea of trying to relate data that's in different those stores relating individual tables and columns. Very, very time consuming, expensive. If you're hiring in resource from consultants or systems integrators externally, you might need to buy or to use party tools, Aziz said earlier. The people who understand some of those systems may have left a while ago. See you even high risks quite cost situation from the off on the same things that have developed through the project. Um, what are you doing with it, Ayatollah? Who is that? We're able to automate a lot of this process from the very beginning because we can do the initial data. Discovery run, for example, automatically you very quickly have an automated validator. A data map on the data flow has been generated automatically, much less time and effort and much less cars. Doctor Marley. >>Okay, so I want to bring back that that first chart, and I want to call your attention to the again that area graph the blue bars and then down below that labor intensity. And now let's bring up the the the same chart. But with a set of an automation injection in here and now. So you now see the So let's go Said Accelerated by Iot, Tom. Okay, great. And we're going to talk about this. But look, what happens to the operational risk. A dramatic reduction in that. That graph. And then look at the bars, the bars, those blue bars. You know, data analysis went from 24 weeks down to four weeks and then look at the labor intensity. The it was all these were high data analysis data staging data prep. Try a lot post implementation fixtures in transition to be a you. All of those went from high labor intensity. So we've now attack that and gone to low labor intensity. Explain how that magic happened. >>I think that the example off a data catalog. So every large enterprise wants to have some kind of repository where they put all their understanding about their data in its Price States catalog, if you like, um, imagine trying to do that manually. You need to go into every individual data store. You need a DB a business analyst, rich data store they need to do in extracted the data table was individually they need to cross reference that with other data school, it stores and schemers and tables. You probably were the mother of all lock Excel spreadsheets. It would be a very, very difficult exercise to do. I mean, in fact, one of our reflections as we automate lots of data lots of these things is, um it accelerates the ability to water may, But in some cases, it also makes it possible for enterprise customers with legacy systems um, take banks, for example. There quite often end up staying on mainframe systems that they've had in place for decades. Uh, no migrating away from them because they're not able to actually do the work of understanding the data g duplicating the data, deleting data isn't relevant and then confidently going forward to migrate. So they stay where they are with all the attendant problems assistance systems that are out of support. Go back to the data catalog example. Um, whatever you discover invades, discovery has to persist in a tool like a data catalog. And so we automate data catalog books, including Out Way Cannot be others, but we have our own. The only alternative to this kind of automation is to build out this very large project team or business analysts off db A's project managers processed analysts together with data to understand that the process of gathering data is correct. To put it in the repository to validate it except etcetera, we've got into organizations and we've seen them ramp up teams off 2030 people costs off £234 million a year on a time frame, 15 20 years just to try and get a data catalog done. And that's something that we can typically do in a timeframe of months, if not weeks. And the difference is using automation. And if you do what? I've just described it. In this manual situation, you make migrations to the cloud prohibitively expensive. Whatever saving you might make from shutting down your legacy data stores, we'll get eaten up by the cost of doing it. Unless you go with the more automated approach. >>Okay, so the automated approach reduces risk because you're not gonna, you know you're going to stay on project plan. Ideally, it's all these out of scope expectations that come up with the manual processes that kill you in the rework andan that data data catalog. People are afraid that their their family jewels data is not going to make it through to the other side. So So that's something that you're you're addressing and then you're also not boiling the ocean. You're really taking the pieces that are critical and stuff you don't need. You don't have to pay for >>process. It's a very good point. I mean, one of the other things that we do and we have specific features to do is to automatically and noise data for a duplication at a rover or record level and redundancy on a column level. So, as you say before you go into a migration process. You can then understand. Actually, this stuff it was replicated. We don't need it quite often. If you put data in the cloud you're paying, obviously, the storage based offer compute time. The more data you have in there that's duplicated, that is pure cost. You should take out before you migrate again if you're trying to do that process of understanding what's duplicated manually off tens or hundreds of bases stores. It was 20 months, if not years. Use machine learning to do that in an automatic way on it's much, much quicker. I mean, there's nothing I say. Well, then, that costs and benefits of guitar. Every organization we work with has a lot of money existing, sunk cost in their I t. So have your piece systems like Oracle or Data Lakes, which they've spent a good time and money investing in. But what we do by enabling them to transition everything to the strategic future repositories, is accelerate the value of that investment and the time to value that investment. So we're trying to help people get value out of their existing investments on data estate, close down the things that they don't need to enable them to go to a kind of brighter, more future well, >>and I think as well, you know, once you're able to and this is a journey, we know that. But once you're able to go live on, you're infusing sort of a data mindset, a data oriented culture. I know it's somewhat buzzword, but when you when you see it in organizations, you know it's really and what happens is you dramatically reduce that and cycle time of going from data to actually insights. Data's plentiful, but insights aren't, and that is what's going to drive competitive advantage over the next decade and beyond. >>Yeah, definitely. And you could only really do that if you get your data estate cleaned up in the first place. Um, I worked with the managed teams of data scientists, data engineers, business analysts, people who are pushing out dashboards and trying to build machine learning applications. You know, you know, the biggest frustration for lots of them and the thing that they spend far too much time doing is trying to work out what the right data is on cleaning data, which really you don't want a highly paid thanks to scientists doing with their time. But if you sort out your data stays in the first place, get rid of duplication. If that pans migrate to cloud store, where things are really accessible on its easy to build connections and to use native machine learning tools, you're well on the way up to date the maturity curve on you can start to use some of those more advanced applications. >>You said. What are some of the pre requisites? Maybe the top few that are two or three that I need to understand as a customer to really be successful here? Is it skill sets? Is it is it mindset leadership by in what I absolutely need to have to make this successful? >>Well, I think leadership is obviously key just to set the vision of people with spiky. One of the great things about Ayatollah, though, is you can use your existing staff to do this work. If you've used on automation, platform is no need to hire expensive people. Alright, I was a no code solution. It works out of the box. You just connect to force on your existing stuff can use. It's very intuitive that has these issues. User interface? >>Um, it >>was only to invest vast amounts with large consultants who may well charging the earth. Um, and you already had a bit of an advantage. If you've got existing staff who are close to the data subject matter experts or use it because they can very easily learn how to use a tool on, then they can go in and they can write their own data quality rules on. They can really make a contribution from day one, when we are go into organizations on way. Can I? It's one of the great things about the whole experience. Veritas is. We can get tangible results back within the day. Um, usually within an hour or two great ones to say Okay, we started to map relationships. Here's the data map of the data that we've analyzed. Harrison thoughts on where the sensitive data is because it's automated because it's running algorithms stater on. That's what they were really to expect. >>Um, >>and and you know this because you're dealing with the ecosystem. We're entering a new era of data and many organizations to your point, they just don't have the resources to do what Google and Amazon and Facebook and Microsoft did over the past decade To become data dominant trillion dollar market cap companies. Incumbents need to rely on technology companies to bring that automation that machine intelligence to them so they can apply it. They don't want to be AI inventors. They want to apply it to their businesses. So and that's what really was so difficult in the early days of so called big data. You have this just too much complexity out there, and now companies like Iot Tahoe or bringing your tooling and platforms that are allowing companies to really become data driven your your final thoughts. Please use it. >>That's a great point, Dave. In a way, it brings us back to where it began. In terms of partnerships and alliances. I completely agree with a really exciting point where we can take applications like Iot. Uh, we can go into enterprises and help them really leverage the value of these type of machine learning algorithms. And and I I we work with all the major cloud providers AWS, Microsoft Azure or Google Cloud Platform, IBM and Red Hat on others, and we we really I think for us. The key thing is that we want to be the best in the world of enterprise data automation. We don't aspire to be a cloud provider or even a workflow provider. But what we want to do is really help customers with their data without automated data functionality in partnership with some of those other businesses so we can leverage the great work they've done in the cloud. The great work they've done on work flows on virtual assistants in other areas. And we help customers leverage those investments as well. But our heart, we really targeted it just being the best, uh, enterprised data automation business in the world. >>Massive opportunities not only for technology companies, but for those organizations that can apply technology for business. Advantage yourself, count. Thanks so much for coming on the Cube. Appreciate. All right. And thank you for watching everybody. We'll be right back right after this short break. >>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a CUBE conversation. >> As you may recall, coming into the second part of 2019 we reported, based on ETR Survey data, that there was a narrowing of spending on emerging tech and an unplugging of a lot of legacy systems. This was really because people were going from experimentation into operationalizing their digital initiatives. When COVID hit, conventional wisdom suggested that there would be a flight to safety. Now, interestingly, we reported with Eric Bradley, based on one of the Venns, that a lot of CIOs were still experimenting with emerging vendors. But this was very anecdotal. Today, we have more data, fresh data, from the ETR Emerging Technology Study on private companies, which really does suggest that there's a notable decline in experimentation, and that's affecting emerging technology vendors. Hi, everybody, this is Dave Vellante, and welcome to this week's Wikibon Cube Insights, powered by ETR. Once again, Sagar Kadakia is joining us. Sagar is the Director of Research at ETR. Sagar, good to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Good to see you again. Thanks for having me, Dave. >> So, it's really important to point out, this Emerging Tech Study that you guys do, it's different from your quarterly Technology Spending Intention Survey. Take us through the methodology. Guys, maybe you could bring up the first chart. And, Sagar, walk us through how you guys approach this. >> No problem. So, a lot of the viewers are used to seeing a lot of the results from the Technology Spending Intention Survey, or the TSIS, as we call it. That study, as the title says, it really tracks spending intentions on more pervasive vendors, right, Microsoft, AWS, as an example. What we're going to look at today is our Emerging Technology Study, which we conduct biannually, in May and November. This study is a little bit different. We ask CIOs around evaluations, awareness, planned evaluations, so think of this as pre-spend, right. So that's a major differentiator from the TSIS. That, and this study, really focuses on private emerging providers. We're really only focused on those really emerging private companies, say, like your Series B to Series G or H, whatever it may be, so, two big differences within those studies. And then today what we're really going to look at is the results from the Emerging Technology Study. Just a couple of quick things here. We had 811 CIOs participate, which represents about 380 billion in annual IT spend, so the results from this study matter. We had almost 75 Fortune 100s take it. So, again, we're really measuring how private emerging providers are doing in the largest organizations. And so today we're going to be reviewing notable sectors, but largely this survey tracks roughly 356 private technologies and frameworks. >> All right, guys, bring up the pie chart, the next slide. Now, Sagar, this is sort of a snapshot here, and it basically says that 44% of CIOs agree that COVID has decreased the organization's evaluation and utilization of emerging tech, despite what I mentioned, Eric Bradley's Venn, which suggested one CIO in particular said, "Hey, I always pick somebody in the lower left "of the magic quadrant." But, again, this is a static view. I know we have some other data, but take us through this, and how this compares to other surveys that you've done. >> No problem. So let's start with the high level takeaways. And I'll actually kind of get into to the point that Eric was debating, 'cause that point is true. It's just really how you kind of slice and dice the data to get to that. So, what you're looking at here, and what the overall takeaway from the Emerging Technology Study was, is, you know, you are going to see notable declines in POCs, of proof-of-concepts, any valuations because of COVID-19. Even though we had been communicating for quite some time, you know, the last few months, that there's increasing pressure for companies to further digitize with COVID-19, there are IT budget constraints. There is a huge pivot in IT resources towards supporting remote employees, a decrease in risk tolerance, and so that's why what you're seeing here is a rather notable number of CIOs, 44%, that said that they are decreasing their organization's evaluation and utilization of private emerging providers. So that is notable. >> Now, as you pointed out, you guys run this survey a couple of times a year. So now let's look at the time series. Guys, if you bring up the next chart. We can see how the sentiment has changed since last year. And, of course, we're isolating here on some of larger companies. So, take us through what this data means. >> No problem. So, how do we quantify what we just saw in the prior slide? We saw 44% of CIOs indicating that they are going to be decreasing their evaluations. But what exactly does that mean? We can pretty much determine that by looking at a lot of the data that we captured through our Emerging Technology Study. There's a lot going on in this slide, but I'll walk you through it. What you're looking at here is Fortune 1000 organizations, so we've really isolated the data to those organizations that matter. So, let's start with the teal, kind of green line first, because I think it's a little bit easier to understand. What you're looking at, Fortune 1000 evaluations, both planned and current, okay? And you're looking at a time series, one year ago and six months ago. So, two of the answer options that we provide CIOs in this survey, right, think about the survey as a grid, where you have seven answer options going horizontally, and then 300-plus vendors and technologies going vertically. For any given vendor, they can essentially indicate one of these options, two of them being on currently evaluating them or I plan to evaluate them in six months. So what you're looking at here is effectively the aggregate number, or the average number of Fortune 1000 evaluations. So if you look into May 2019, all the way on the left of that chart, that 24% roughly means that a quarter of selections made by Fortune 1000 of the survey, they selected plan to evaluate or currently evaluating. If you fast-forward six months, to the middle of the chart, November '19, it's roughly the same, one in four technologies that are Fortune 1000 selected, they indicated that I plan or am currently evaluating them. But now look at that big drop off going into May 2020, the 17%, right? So now one out of every six technologies, or one out of every selections that they made was an evaluation. So a very notable drop. And then if you look at the blue line, this is another answer option that we provided CIOs: I'm aware of the technology but I have no plans to evaluate. So this answer option essentially tracks awareness levels. If you look at the last six months, look at that big uptick from 44% to over 50%, right? So now, essentially one out of every two technologies, or private technologies that a CIO is aware of, they have no plans to evaluate. So this is going to have an impact on the general landscape, when we think about those private emerging providers. But there is one caveat, and, Dave, this is what you mentioned earlier, this is what Eric was talking about. The providers that are doing well are the ones that are work-from-home aligned. And so, just like a few years ago, we were really analyzing results based on are you cloud-native or are you Cloud-aligned, because those technologies are going to do the best, what we're seeing in the emerging space is now the same thing. Those emerging providers that enable organizations to maintain productivity for their employees, essentially allowing their employees to work remotely, those emerging providers are still doing well. And that is probably the second biggest takeaway from this study. >> So now what we're seeing here is this flight to perceive safety, which, to your point, Sagar, doesn't necessarily mean good news for all enterprise tech vendors, but certainly for those that are positioned for the work-from-home pivot. So now let's take a look at a couple of sectors. We'll start with information security. We've reported for years about how the perimeter's been broken down, and that more spend was going to shift from inside the moat to a distributed network, and that's clearly what's happened as a result of COVID. Guys, if you bring up the next chart. Sagar, you take us through this. >> No problem. And as you imagine, I think that the big theme here is zero trust. So, a couple of things here. And let me just explain this chart a little bit, because we're going to be going through a couple of these. What you're seeing on the X-axis here, is this is effectively what we're classifying as near term growth opportunity from all customers. The way we measure that effectively is we look at all the evaluations, current evaluations, planned evaluations, we look at people who are evaluated and plan to utilize these vendors. The more indications you get on that the more to the top right you're going to be. The more indications you get around I'm aware of but I don't plan to evaluate, or I'm replacing this early-stage vendor, the further down and on the left you're going to be. So, on the X-axis you have near term growth opportunity from all customers, and on the Y-axis you have near term growth opportunity from, really, the biggest shops in the world, your Global 2000, your Forbes Private 225, like Cargill, as an example, and then, of course, your federal agencies. So you really want to be positioned up and to the right here. So, the big takeaway here is zero trust. So, just a couple of things on this slide when we think about zero trust. As organizations accelerate their Cloud and Saas spend because of COVID-19, and, you know, what we were talking about earlier, Dave, remote work becomes the new normal, that perimeter security approach is losing appeal, because the perimeter's less defined, right? Apps and data are increasingly being stored in the Cloud. That, and employees are working remotely from everywhere, and they're accessing all of these items. And so what we're seeing now is a big move into zero trust. So, if we look at that chart again, what you're going to see in that upper right quadrant are a lot of identity and access management players. And look at the bifurcation in general. This is what we were talking about earlier in terms of the landscape not doing well. Most security vendors are in that red area, you know, in the middle to the bottom. But if you look at the top right, what are you seeing here? Unify ID, Auth0, WSO2, right, all identity and access management players. These are critical in your zero trust approach, and this is one of the few area where we are seeing upticks. You also see here BitSight, Lucideus. So that's going to be security assessment. You're seeing VECTRA and Netskope and Darktrace, and a few others here. And Cloud Security and IDPS, Intrusion Detection and Prevention System. So, very few sectors are seeing an uptick, very few security sectors actually look pretty good, based on opportunities that are coming. But, essentially, all of them are in that work-from-home aligned security stack, so to speak. >> Right, and of course, as we know, as we've been reporting, buyers have options, from both established companies and these emerging companies that are public, Okta, CrowdStrike, Zscaler. We've seen the work-from-home pivot benefit those guys, but even Palo Alto Networks, even CISCO, I asked (other speaker drowns out speech) last week, I said, "Hey, what about this pivot to work from home? "What about this zero trust?" And he said, "Look, the reality is, yes, "a big part of our portfolio is exposed "to that traditional infrastructure, "but we have options for zero trust as well." So, from a buyer's standpoint, that perceived flight to safety, you have a lot of established vendors, and that clearly is showing up in your data. Now, the other sector that we want to talk about is database. We've been reporting a lot on database, data warehouse. So, why don't you take us through the next graphic here, if you would. >> Sagar: No problem. So, our theme here is that Snowflake is really separating itself from the pack, and, again, you can see that here. Private database and data warehousing vendors really continue to impact a lot of their public peers, and Snowflake is leading the way. We expect Snowflake to gain momentum in the next few years. And, look, there's some rumors that IPOing soon. And so when we think about that set-up, we like it, because as organizations transition away from hybrid Cloud architectures to 100% or near-100% public Cloud, Snowflake is really going to benefit. So they look good, their data stacks look pretty good, right, that's resiliency, redundancy across data centers. So we kind of like them as well. Redis Labs bring a DB and they look pretty good here on the opportunity side, but we are seeing a little bit of churn, so I think probably Snowflake and DataStax are probably our two favorites here. And again, when you think about Snowflake, we continue to think more pervasive vendors, like Paradata and Cloudera, and some of the other larger database firms, they're going to continue seeing wallet and market share losses due to some of these emerging providers. >> Yeah. If you could just keep that slide up for a second, I would point out, in many ways Snowflake is kind of a safer bet, you know, we talk about flight to safety, because they're well-funded, they're established. You can go from zero to Snowflake very quickly, that's sort of their mantra, if you will. But I want to point out and recognize that it is somewhat oranges and tangerines here, Snowflake being an analytical database. You take MariaDB, for instance, I look at that, anyway, as relational and operational. And then you mentioned DataStax. I would say Couchbase, Redis Labs, Aerospike. Cockroach is really a... EValue Store. You've got some non-relational databases in there. But we're looking at the entire sector of databases, which has become a really interesting market. But again, some of those established players are going to do very well, and I would put Snowflake on that cusp. As you pointed out, Bloomberg broke the story, I think last week, that they were contemplating an IPO, which we've known for a while. >> Yeah. And just one last thing on that. We do like some of the more pervasive players, right. Obviously, AWS, all their products, Redshift and DynamoDB. Microsoft looks really good. It's just really some of the other legacy ones, like the Teradatas, the Oracles, the Hadoops, right, that we are going to be impacted. And so the claw providers look really good. >> So, the last decade has really brought forth this whole notion of DevOps, infrastructure as code, the whole API economy. And that's the piece we want to jump into now. And there are some real stand-outs here, you know, despite the early data that we showed you, where CIOs are less prone to look at emerging vendors. There are some, for instance, if you bring up the next chart, guys, like Hashi, that really are standing out, aren't they? >> That's right, Dave. So, again, what you're seeing here is you're seeing that bifurcation that we were talking about earlier. There are a lot of infrastructure software vendors that are not positioned well, but if you look at the ones at the top right that are positioned well... We have two kind of things on here, starting with infrastructure automation. We think a winner here is emerging with Terraform. Look all the way up to the right, how well-positioned they are, how many opportunities they're getting. And for the second straight survey now, Terraform is leading along their peers, Chef, Puppet, SaltStack. And they're leading their peers in so many different categories, notably on allocating more spend, which is obviously very important. For Chef, Puppet and SaltStack, which you can see a little bit below, probably a little bit higher than the middle, we are seeing some elevator churn levels. And so, really, Terraform looks like they're kind of separating themselves. And we've got this great quote from the CIO just a few months ago, on why Terraform is likely pulling away, and I'll read it out here quickly. "The Terraform tool creates "an entire infrastructure in a box. "Unlike vendors that use procedural languages, "like Ants, Bull and Chef, "it will show you the infrastructure "in the way you want it to be. "You don't have to worry about "the things that happen underneath." I know some companies where you can put your entire Amazon infrastructure through Terraform. If Amazon disappears, if your availability drops, load balancers, RDS, everything, you just run Terraform and everything will be created in 10 to 15 minutes. So that shows you the power of Terraform and why we think it's ranked better than some of the other vendors. >> Yeah, I think that really does sum it up. And, actually, guys, if you don't mind bringing that chart back up again. So, a point out, so, Mitchell Hashimoto, Hashi, really, I believe I'm correct, talking to Stu about this a little bit, he sort of led the Terraform project, which is an Open Source project, and, to your point, very easy to deploy. Chef, Puppet, Salt, they were largely disrupted by Cloud, because they're designed to automate deployment largely on-prem and DevOps, and now Terraform sort of packages everything up into a platform. So, Hashi actually makes money, and you'll see it on this slide, and things, Vault, which is kind of their security play. You see GitLab on here. That's really application tooling to deploy code. You see Docker containers, you know, Docker, really all about open source, and they've had great adoption, Docker's challenge has always been monetization. You see Turbonomic on here, which is application resource management. You can't go too deep on these things, but it's pretty deep within this sector. But we are comparing different types of companies, but just to give you a sense as to where the momentum is. All right, let's wrap here. So maybe some final thoughts, Sagar, on the Emerging Technology Study, and then what we can expect in the coming month here, on the update in the Technology Spending Intention Study, please. >> Yeah, no problem. One last thing on the zero trust side that has been a big issue that we didn't get to cover, is VPN spend. Our data is pointing that, yes, even though VPN spend did increase the last few months because of remote work, we actually think that people are going to move away from that as they move onto zero trust. So just one last point on that, just in terms of overall thoughts, you know, again, as we cover it, you can see how bifurcated all these spaces are. Really, if we were to go sector by sector by sector, right, storage and block chain and MLAI and all that stuff, you would see there's a few or maybe one or two vendors doing well, and the majority of vendors are not seeing as many opportunities. And so, again, are you work-from-home aligned? Are you the best vendor of all the other emerging providers? And if you fit those two criteria then you will continue seeing POCs and evaluations. And if you don't fit that criteria, unfortunately, you're going to see less opportunities. So think that's really the big takeaway on that. And then, just in terms of next steps, we're already transitioning now to our next Technology Spending Intention Survey. That launched last week. And so, again, we're going to start getting a feel for how CIOs are spending in 2H-20, right, so, for the back half of the year. And our question changes a little bit. We ask them, "How do you plan on spending in the back half year "versus how you actually spent "in the first half of the year, or 1H-20?" So, we're kind of, tighten the screw, so to speak, and really getting an idea of what's spend going to look like in the back half, and we're also going to get some updates as it relates to budget impacts from COVID-19, as well as how vendor-relationships have changed, as well as business impacts, like layoffs and furloughs, and all that stuff. So we have a tremendous amount of data that's going to be coming in the next few weeks, and it should really prepare us for what to see over the summer and into the fall. >> Yeah, very excited, Sagar, to see that. I just wanted to double down on what you said about changes in networking. We've reported with you guys on NPLS networks, shifting to SD-WAN. But even VPN and SD-WAN are being called into question as the internet becomes the new private network. And so lots of changes there. And again, very excited to see updated data, return of post-COVID, as we exit this isolation economy. Really want to point out to folks that this is not a snapshot survey, right? This is an ongoing exercise that ETR runs, and grateful for our partnership with you guys. Check out ETR.plus, that's the ETR website. I publish weekly on Wikibon.com and SiliconANGLE.com. Sagar, thanks so much for coming on. Once again, great to have you. >> Thank you so much, for having me, Dave. I really appreciate it, as always. >> And thank you for watching this episode of theCube Insights, powered by ETR. This Dave Vellante. We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>> Commentator: From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of Enterprise Data Automation. An event series brought to you by Io-Tahoe. >> Hi everybody, we're back, we're talking about Enterprise Data Automation. The hashtag is data automated, and we're going to really dig into data migrations. Data migrations are risky, they're time consuming and they're expensive. Yusef Khan is here, he's the head of partnerships and alliances at Io-Tahoe, coming again from London. Hey, good to see you, Yusef, thanks very much. >> Thank Dave, great guy. >> So your role is interesting. We're talking about data migrations, you're going to head of partnerships, what is your role specifically and how is it relevant to what we're going to talk about today? >> Well, I work with the various businesses, such as cloud companies, systems integrators, companies that sell operating systems, middleware, all of whom are often quite well embedded within a company IT infrastructures and have existing relationships, because what we do fundamentally makes migration to the cloud easier and data migration easier, there are lots of businesses that are interested in partnering with us some were interested in partnering with. >> So let's set up the problem a little bit and then I want to get into some of the data. You know, you said that migrations are risky, time consuming, expensive, they're often times a blocker for organizations to really get value out of data. Why is that? >> Ah, I think I mean, all migrations have to start with knowing the facts about your data and you can try and do this manually but when you have an organization that may have been going for decades or longer, they will probably have a pretty large legacy data estate. So they'll have everything from on premise mainframes, they may have stuff which is partly in the clouds but they probably have hundreds, if not thousands of applications and potentially hundreds of different data stores. Now their understanding of what they have, is often quite limited because you can try and draw manual maps but they're out-of-date very quickly, every time data changes, the manual map set a date and people obviously leave organizations all the time. So that kind of tribal knowledge gets built up is limited as well. So you can try and map all that manually, you might need a DBA, database analyst or a business analyst and they might go in and explore the data for you. But doing that manually is very very time consuming. This can take teams of people months and months or you can use automation, just like Webster Bank did with Io-Tahoe and they managed to do this with a relatively small team in a timeframe of days. >> Yeah, we talked to Paul from Webster Bank, awesome discussion. So I want to dig in to this migration, then let's pull up a graphic that we'll talk about, what a typical migration project looks like. So what you see here it's very detailed, I know, it's a bit of an eye test but let me call your attention to some of the key aspects of this and then Yusef, I want you to chime in. So at the top here, you see that area graph, that's operational risk for typical migration project and you can see the timeline and the milestones, that blue bar is the time to test, so you can see the second step data analysis it's taking 24 weeks, so you know, very time consuming and then let's not get dig into the stuff in the middle of the fine print but there's some real good detail there but go down the bottom, that's labor intensity in the bottom and you can see high is that sort of brown and you can see a number of data analysis, data staging, data prep, the trial, the implementation, post implementation fixtures, the transition to BAU, which I think is Business As Usual. Those are all very labor intensive. So what are your takeaways from this typical migration project? What do we need to know Yusef? >> I mean, I think the key thing is, when you don't understand your data upfront, it's very difficult to scope and to set up a project because you go to business stakeholders and decision makers and you say, "okay, we want to migrate these data stores, we want to put them into the cloud most often", but actually, you probably don't know how much data is there, you don't necessarily know how many applications it relates to, you don't know the relationships between the data, you don't know the flow of the data so the direction in which the data is going between different data stores and tables. So you start from a position where you have pretty high risk and alleviate that risk, you probably stack your project team with lots and lots of people to do the next phase, which is analysis and so you've set up a project which is got to pretty high cost. The bigger the project, the more people the heavier the governance obviously and then in the phase where they're trying to do lots and lots of manual analysis. Manual analysis, as we all know and the idea of trying to relate data that's in different data stores, relating individual tables and columns are very, very time consuming, expensive if you're hiring in resource from consultants or systems integrators externally, you might need to buy or to use third party tools. As I said earlier, the people who understand some of those systems may have left a while ago and so you are in a high risks, high cost situation from the off and the same thing sort of develops through the project. What you find with Io-Tahoe is that we're able to automate a lot of this process from the very beginning, because we can do the initial data discovery run for example automatically, so you very quickly have an automated view of the data, a data map and the data flow has been generated automatically, much less time and effort and much less cost of money. >> Okay, so I'm going to bring back that first chart and I want to call your attention to again, that area graph, the blue bars and then down below that labor intensity and now let's bring up the same chart, but with a sort of an automation injection in here and now so you now see the sort of essence celebrated by Io-Tahoe. Okay, great, we're going to talk about this but look what happens to the operational risk, a dramatic reduction in that graph and then look at the bars, the bars, those blue bars, you know, data analysis went from 24 weeks down to four weeks and then look at the labor intensity. All these were high, data analysis, data staging, Data Prep, trial, post implementation fixtures in transition to BAU. All those went from high labor intensity, so we've now attacked that and gone to low labor intensity, explain how that magic happened. >> Ah, let's take the example of a data catalog. So every large enterprise wants to have some kind of repository where they put all their understanding about that data and its price data catalog, if you like. Imagine trying to do that manually, you need to go into every individual data store, you need a DBA and the business analyst for each data store, they need to do an extract of the data, they need to put tables individually, they need to cross reference that with other data stores and schemas and tables, you've probably end up with the mother of all Excel spreadsheets and it would be a very, very difficult exercise to do. I mean, in fact, one of our reflections as we automate lots of these things is, it accelerates the ability to automate, but in some cases it also makes it possible for enterprise customers with legacy systems, take banks, for example, they quite often end up staying on mainframe systems that they've had in place for decades, and not migrating away from them because they're not able to actually do the work of understanding the data, duplicating the data, deleting data that isn't relevant and then confidently going forward to migrate. So they stay where they are with all the attendant problems or success systems that are out of their support. Go back to the data catalog example. Whatever you discover in data discovery has to persist in a tool like a data catalog and so we automate data catalogs including our own, we can also feed others but we have our own. The only alternative to this kind of automation is to build out this very large project team of business analysts, of DBAs, project managers, process analysts, to gather all the data, to understand that the process of gathering the data is correct, to put it in the repository, to validate it, etcetera, etcetera. We've got into organizations and we've seen them, ramp up teams of 20 30 people, cost of 2, 3, 4 million pounds a year and a timeframe of 15 to 20 years, just to try and get a data catalog done and that's something that we can typically do in a timeframe of months if not weeks and the differences is using automation and if you do what I've just described in this manual situation, you make migrations to the cloud prohibitively expensive, whatever saving you might make from shutting down your legacy data stores, will get eaten up by the cost of doing it unless you go with a more automated approach. >> Okay, so the automated approach reduces risk because you're not going to, you know, you're going to stay on project plan, ideally, you know, it's all these out of scope expectations that come up with the manual processes that kill you in the rework and then that data catalog, people are afraid that their family jewels data is not going to make it through to the other side. So, that's something that you're addressing and then you're also not boiling the ocean, you're really taking the pieces that are critical and the stuff that you don't need, you don't have to pay for as part of this process. >> It's a very good point. I mean, one of the other things that we do and we have specific features to do, is to automatically analyze data for duplication at a row-level or record level and redundancy at a column level. So as you say, before you go into migration process, you can then understand actually, this stuff here is duplicated, we don't need it. Quite often, if you put data in the cloud, you're paying obviously for storage space or for compute time, the more data you have in there is duplicated, that's pure cost you should take out before you migrate. Again, if you're trying to do that process of understanding was duplicated manually of 10s or 100s of data stores, it will take you months if not years, you use machine learning to do it in an automatic way and it's much much quicker. I mean, there's nothing I'd say about the net cost and benefit of Io-Tahoe. Every organization we work with has a lot of money existing sunk cost in there IT, so they'll have your IP systems like Oracle or data lakes which they've spent good time and money investing in. What we do by enabling them to transition everything to their strategic future repositories, is accelerate the value of investment and the time to value that investment. So we are trying to help people get value out of their existing investments and data estate, close down the things that they don't need and enable them to go to a kind of brighter and more present future. >> Well, I think as well, you know, once you're able to and this is a journey, we know that but once you're able to go live and you're infusing sort of a data mindset, a data oriented culture, I know it's somewhat buzzwordy, but when you when you see it in organizations, you know it's real and what happens is you dramatically reduce that and cycle time of going from data to actually insights, data is plentiful but insights aren't and that is what's going to drive competitive advantage over the next decade and beyond. >> Yeah, definitely and you can only really do that if you get your data state cleaned up in the first place. I've worked with and managed teams of data scientists, big data engineers, business analysts, people who are pushing out dashboards and are trying to build machine learning applications. You'll know you have the biggest frustration for lots of them and the thing that they spend far too much time doing is trying to work out what the right data is, and cleaning data, which really you don't want a highly paid data scientist doing with their time but if you sort out your data set in the first place, get rid of duplication, perhaps migrate to a cloud store where things are more readily accessible and it's easy to build connections and to use native machine learning tools, you're well on the way up the maturity curve and you can start to use some of those more advanced applications. >> Yusef, what are some of the prerequisites maybe the top, you know, few that are two or three that I need to understand as a customer to really be successful here? I mean, there's, is it skill sets? Is it, mindset, leadership buy-in? What do I absolutely need to have to make this successful? >> Well, I think leadership is obviously key, being able to sort of set the vision for people is obviously key. One of the great things about Io-Tahoe though, is you can use your existing staff to do this work if you use our automation platform, there's no need to hire expensive people. Io-Tahoe is a no code solution, it works out of the box, you just connect to source and then your existing staff can use it. It's very intuitive and easy to use, user interface is only to invest vast amounts with large consultancies, who may well charging the earth and you are actually a bit of an advantage if you've got existing staff who are close to the data, who are subject matter experts or use it because they can very easily learn how to use the tool and then they can go in and they can write their own data quality rules and they can really make a contribution from day one. When we go into organizations and we connect all of the great things about the whole experience via Io-Tahoe is we can get tangible results back within the day. Usually within an hour or two, were able to say, okay, we started to map the relationships here. Here's a data map of the data that we've analyzed and here are some thoughts on what your sensitive data is, because it's automated, because it's running algorithms across data and that's what people really should expect. >> And you know this because you're dealing with the ecosystem, we're entering a new era of data and many organizations to your point, they just don't have the resources to do what Google and Amazon and Facebook and Microsoft did over the past decade to become you know, data dominant, you know, trillion dollar market cap companies. Incumbents need to rely on technology companies to bring that automation, that machine intelligence to them so they can apply it. They don't want to be AI inventors, they want to apply it to their businesses. So and that's what really was so difficult in the early days of so called Big Data, you had this just too much complexity out there and now companies like Io-Tahoe are bringing you know, tooling and platforms that are allowing companies to really become data driven. Your final thoughts, please Yusef. >> But that's a great point, Dave. In a way it brings us back to where it began in terms of partnerships and alliances. I completely agree, a really exciting point where we can take applications like Io-Tahoe and we can go into enterprises and help them really leverage the value of these type of machine learning algorithms and AI. We work with all the major cloud providers, AWS, Microsoft Azure, Google Cloud Platform, IBM, Red Hat, and others and we really, I think, for us, the key thing is that we want to be the best in the world at Enterprise Data Automation. We don't aspire to be a cloud provider or even a workflow provider but what we want to do is really help customers with their data, with our automated data functionality in partnership with some of those other businesses so we can leverage the great work they've done in the cloud, the great work they've done on workflows, on virtual assistants and in other areas and we help customers leverage those investments as well but our heart we're really targeted at just being the best enterprise, data automation business in the world. >> Massive opportunities not only for technology companies but for those organizations that can apply technology for business advantage, Yusef Khan, thanks so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Pretty much appreciated. >> All right, and thank you for watching everybody. We'll be right back right after this short break. (upbeat music)

from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation as we've been reporting the Koba 19 pandemic has created a bifurcated IT spending picture and over the last several weeks we've reported both on the macro and even some come at it from from a vendor and a sector view I mean for example we've reported on some of the companies that have really continued to thrive we look at the NASDAQ and its you know near at all-time highs companies like oh and in CrowdStrike we've reported on snowflake uipath the sectors are PA some of the analytic databases around AI maybe even to a lesser extent cloud but still has a lot of tailwind relative to some of those on-prem infrastructure plays even companies like Cisco bifurcated in and of themselves where you see this Meraki side of the house you know doing quite well the work from home stuff but maybe some of the traditional networking not as much well now what if you flip that to really try to understand what's going on with the shape of the recovery which is the main narrative right now is it a v-shape does it a u-shape what is what's that what do people expect and now you understand that you really have to look at different industries because different industries are going to come back at a different pace with me again is Sagar khadiyah who's the director of research at EGR Sagar you guys are all over this as usual timely information it's great to see you again hope all is well in New York City thanks so much David it's a pleasure to be back on again yeah so where are we in the cycle we give dividend a great job and very timely ETR was the first to really put out data on the koban impact with the survey that ran from mid-march to to mid-april and now everybody's attention sagar is focused on okay we're starting to come back stores are starting to open people are beginning to to go out again and everybody wants to know what the shape of the recovery looks like so where are we actually in that research cycle for you guys yeah no problem so like you said you know in that kind of march/april timeframe we really want to go out there and get an idea of what we're doing the budget impacts you know as it relates to IT because of kovat 19 right so we kind of ended off there around a decline of 5% and coming into the year the consensus was of growth of 4 or 5% right so we saw about a 900,000 basis points wing you know to the negative side and the public covered in March and April were you know which sectors and vendors were going to benefit as a result of work from home and so now as we kind of fast forward to the research cycle as we kind of go more into May and into the summer rather than asking those exact same question to get again because it's just been you know maybe 40 or 50 days we really want Singh on the recovery type as well as kind of more emerging private vendors right we want to understand what's gonna be the impact on on these vendors that typically rely on you know larger conferences more in-person meetings because these are younger technologies there's not a lot of information about them and so last Thursday we launched our biannual emerging technology study it covers roughly 300 private emerging technologies across maybe 60 sectors of technology and in tandem we've launched a co-ed flash poll right what we wanted to do was kind of twofold one really understand from CIOs the recovery type they had in mind as well as if they were seeing any any kind of permanent changes in their IT stacks IT spend because of koban 19 and so if we kind of look at the first chart here and kind of get more into that first question around recovery type what we asked CIOs and this kind of COBIT flash poll again we did it last Thursday was what type of recovery are you expecting is it v-shaped so kind of a brief decline you know maybe one quarter and then you're gonna start seeing growth in 2 to H 20 is it you shaped so two to three quarters of a decline or deceleration revenue and you're kind of forecasting that growth in revenue as an organization to come back in 2021 is it l-shaped right so maybe three four five quarters of a decline or deceleration and then you know very minimal to moderate growth or none of the above you know your organization is actually benefiting from from from koban 19 as you know we've seen some many reports so those are kind of the options that we gave CIOs and you kind of see it on that first chart here interesting and this is a survey a flash service 700 CIOs or approximately and the interesting thing I really want to point out here is this you know the koban pandemic was it didn't suppress you know all companies you know and in the return it's not going to be a rising tide lifts all ships you really got to do your research you have to understand the different sectors really try to peel back the onion skin and understand why there's certain momentum how certain organizations are accommodating the work from home we heard you know several weeks ago how there's a major change in in networking mindsets we're talking about how security is changing we're going to talk about some of the permanence but it's really really important to try to understand these different trends by different industries which you're going to talk about in a minute but if you take a look at this slide I mean obviously most people expect this u-shaped decline I mean a you know a u-shaped recovery rather so it's two or three quarters followed by some growth next year but as we'll see some of these industries are gonna really go deeper with an l-shape recovery and then it's really interesting that a pretty large and substantial portion see this as a tailwind presumably those with you know strong SAS models some annual recurring revenue models your thoughts if we kind of star on this kind of aggregate chart you know you're looking at about forty four percent of CIOs anticipated u-shaped recovery right that's the largest bucket and then you can see another 15 percent and to say an l-shape recovery 14 on the v-shaped and then 16 percent to your point that are kind of seeing this this tailwind but if we kind of focus on that largest bucket that you shaped you know one of the thing to remember and again when we asked is two CIOs within the within this kind of coded flash poll we also asked can you give us some commentary and so one of the things that or one of the themes that are kind of coming along with this u-shaped recovery is you know CIOs are cautiously optimistic about this u-shaped recovery you know they believe that they can get back on to a growth cycle into 2021 as long as there's a vaccine available we don't go into a second wave of lockdowns economic activity picks up a lot of the government actions you know become effective so there are some kind of let's call it qualifiers with this bucket of CIOs that are anticipating a u-shape recovery what they're saying is that look we are expecting these things to happen we're not expecting that our lock down we are expecting a vaccine and if that takes place then we do expect an uptick in growth or going back to kind of pre coded levels in in 2021 but you know I think it's fair to assume that if one or more of these are apps and and things do get worse as all these states are opening up maybe the recovery cycle gets pushed along so kind of at the aggregate this is where we are right now yeah so as I was saying and you really have to understand the different not only different sectors and all the different vendors but you got to look into the industries and then even within industries so if we pull up the next chart we have the industry to the breakdown and sort of the responses by the industries v-shape you shape or shape I had a conversation with a CIO of a major resort just the other day and even he was saying what was actually I'll tell you it was Windham Resorts public company I mean and obviously that business got a good crush they had their earnings call the other day they talked about how they cut their capex in half but the stock sagar since the March lows is more than doubled yeah and you know that's amazing and now but even there within that sector they're peeling that on you're saying well certain parts are going to come back sooner or certain parts are going to longer depending on you know what type of resort what type of hotel so it really is a complicated situation so take us through what you're seeing by industry sure so let's start with kind of the IT telco retail consumer space Dave to your point there's gonna be a tremendous amount of bifurcation within both of those verticals look if we start on the IT telco side you know you're seeing a very large bucket of individuals right over twenty percent that indicated they're seeing a tail with our additional revenue because of covin 19 and you know Dave we spoke about this all the way back in March right all these work from home vendors you know CIOs were doubling down on cloud and SAS and we've seen how some of these events have reported in April you know with this very good reports all the major cloud vendors right select security vendors and so that's why you're seeing on the kind of telco side definitely more positivity right as it relates to recovery type right some of them are not even going through recovery they're they're seeing an acceleration same thing on the retail consumer side you're seeing another large bucket of people who are indicating what we've benefited and again there's going to be a lot of bifurcation here there's been a lot of retail consumers you just mentioned with the hotel lines that are definitely hurting but you know if you have a good online presence as a retailer and you know you had essential goods or groceries you benefited and and those are the organizations that we're seeing you know really indicate that they saw an acceleration due to Koga 19 so I thought those two those two verticals between kind of the IT and retail side there was a big bucket or you know of people who indicated positivity so I thought that was kind of the first kind of you know I was talking about kind of peeling this onion back you know that was really interesting you know tech continues to power on and I think you know a lot of people try I think that somebody was saying that the record of the time in which we've developed a fit of vaccine previously was like mumps or something and it was I mean it was just like years but now today 2020 we've got a I we've got all this data you've got these great companies all working on this and so you know wow if we can compress that that's going to change the equation a couple other things sagar that jump out at me here in this chart I want to ask you about I mean the education you know colleges are really you know kind of freaking out right now some are coming back I know like for instance my daughter University Arizona they're coming back in the fall evidently others are saying and no you can clearly see the airlines and transportation as the biggest sort of l-shape which is the most negative I'm sure restaurants and hospitality are kind of similar and then you see energy you know which got crushed we had you know oil you know negative people paying it big barrels of oil but now look at that you know expectation of a pretty strong you know you shape recovery as people start driving again and the economy picks up so maybe you could give us some thoughts on on some of those sort of outliers yeah so I kind of bucket you know the the next two outliers as from an l-shaped in a u-shaped so on the l-shaped side like like you said education airlines transportation and probably to a little bit lesser extent industrials materials manufacturing services consulting these verticals are indicating the highest percentages from an l-shaped recovery right so three plus orders of revenue declines and deceleration followed by kind of you know minimal to moderate growth and look there's no surprise here those are the verticals that have been impacted the most by less demand from consumers and and businesses and then as you mentioned on the energy utility side and then I would probably bucket maybe healthcare Pharma those have some of the largest percentages of u-shaped recovery and it's funny like I read a lot of commentary from some of the energy in the healthcare CIOs and they were said they were very optimistic about a u-shaped type of recovery and so it kind of you know maybe with those two issues then you could even kind of lump them into you know probably to a lesser extent but you could probably open into the prior one with the airlines and the education and services consulting and IMM where you know these are definitely the verticals that are going to see the longest longest recoveries it's probably a little bit more uniform versus what we've kind of talked about a few minutes ago with you know IT and and retail consumer where it's definitely very bifurcated you know there's definitely winners and losers there yeah and again it's a very complicated situation a lot of people that I've talked to are saying look you know we really don't have a clear picture that's why all these companies have are not giving guidance many people however are optimistic not only for a vet a vaccine but but but also they're thinking as young people with disposable income they're gonna kind of say dorm damn the torpedoes I'm not really going to be exposed and you know they can come back much stronger you know there seems to be pent up demand for some of the things like elective surgery or even the weather is sort of more important health care needs so that obviously could be a snap back so you know obviously we're really closely looking at this one thing though is is certain is that people are expecting a permanent change and you've got data that really shows that on the on the next chart that's right so one of the one of the last questions that we asked on this you know quick coded flash poll was do you anticipate permanent changes to your kind of IT stack IT spend based on the last few months you know as everyone has been working remotely and you know rarely do you see results point this much in one direction but 92% of CIOs and and kind of IT you know high level ITN users indicated yes there are going to be permanent changes and you know one of the things we talked about in March and look we were really the first ones you know you know in our discussion where we were talking about work from home spend kind of negating or balancing out all these declines right we were saying look yes we are seeing a lot of budgets come down but surprisingly we're seeing 2030 percent of organizations accelerate spent and even the ones that are spending less they even then you know some of their some of their budgets are kind of being negated by this work from home spend right when you think about collaboration tool is an additional VPN and networking bandwidth in laptops and then security all that stuff CIOs now continue to spend on because what what CIO is now understand as productivity has remained at very high levels right in March CIOs were very with the catastrophe and productivity that has not come true so on the margin CIOs and organizations are probably much more positive on that front and so now because there is no vaccine where you know CIOs and just in general the population we don't know when one is coming and so remote work seems to be the new norm moving forward especially that productivity you know levels are are pretty good with people working from home so from that perspective everything that looked like it was maybe going to be temporary just for the next few months as people work from home that's how organizations are now moving forward well and we saw Twitter basically said we're gonna make work from home permanent that's probably cuz their CEO wants to you know live in Africa Google I think is going to the end of the year I think many companies are going to look at a hybrid and give employees a choice say look if you want to work from home and you can be productive you get your stuff done you know we're cool with that I think the other point is you know everybody talks about these digital transformations you know leading into Kovan and I got to tell you I think a lot of companies were sort of complacent they talked the talk but they weren't walking the walk meaning they really weren't becoming digital businesses they really weren't putting data at the core and I think now it's really becoming an imperative there's no question that that what we've been talking about and forecasting has been pulled forward and you you're either going to have to step up your digital game or you're going to be in big trouble and the other thing that's I'm really interested in is will companies sub optimize profitability in the near term in order to put better business resiliency in place and better flexibility will they make those investments and I think if they do you know longer term they're going to be in better shape you know if they don't they could maybe be okay in the near term but I'm gonna put a caution sign a little longer term no look I think everything that's been done in the last few months you know in terms of having those continuation plans because you know do two pandemics all that stuff that is now it look you got to have that in your playbook right and so to your point you know this is where CIOs are going and if you're not transforming yourself or you didn't or you know lesson learned because now you're probably having to move twice as fast to support all your employees so I think you know this pandemic really kind of sped up you know digital transformation initiatives which is why you know you're seeing some companies desks and cloud related companies with very good earnings reports that are guiding well and then you're seeing other companies that are pulling their guidance because of uncertainty but it's it's likely more on the side of they're just not seeing the same levels of spend because if they haven't oriented themselves on that digital transformation side so I think you know events like this they typically you know Showcase winners and losers then you know when when things are going well and you know everything is kind of going up well I think that - there's a big you know discussion around is the ESPY overvalued right now I won't make that call but I will say this then there's a lot of data out there there's data and earnings reports there's data about this pandemic which change continues to change maybe not so much daily but you're getting new information multiple times a week so you got to look to that data you got to make your call pick your spot so you talk about a stock pickers market I think it's very much true here there are some some gonna be really strong companies emerging out of this you know don't gamble but do your research and I think you'll you'll find some you know some Dems out there you know maybe Warren Buffett can't find them okay but the guys at Main Street I think you know the I am I'm optimistic I wonder how you feel about about the recovery I I think we may be tainted by tech you know I'm very much concerned about certain industries but I think the tech industry which is our business is gonna come out of this pretty strong yeah we look at the one thing we we should we should have stated this earlier the majority of organizations are not expecting a v-shaped recovery and yet I still think there's part of the consensus is expecting a v-shaped recovery you can see as we demonstrate in some of the earlier charts the you know almost the majority of organizations are expecting a u-shaped recovery and even then as we mentioned right that you shape there is some cautious up around there and I have it you probably have it where yes if everything goes well it looks like 2021 we can really get back on track but there's so much unknown and so yes that does give I think everyone pause when it comes from an investment perspective and even just bringing on technologies and into your organization right which ones are gonna work which ones are it so I'm definitely on the boat of this is a more u-shaped in a v-shaped recovery I think the data backs that up I think you know when it comes to cloud and SAS players those areas and I think you've seen this on the investment side a lot of money has come out of all these other sectors that we mentioned that are having these l-shaped recoveries a lot of it has gone into the tech space I imagine that will continue and so that might be kind of you know it's tough to sometimes balance what's going on on the investor in the stock market side with you know how organizations are recovering I think people are really looking out in two to three quarters and saying look you know to your point where you set up earlier is there a lot of that pent up demand are things gonna get right back to normal because I think you know a lot of people are anticipating that and if we don't see that I think you know the next time we do some of these kind of coded flash bolts you know I'm interested to see whether or not you know maybe towards the end of the summer these recovery cycles are actually longer because maybe we didn't see some of that stuff so there's still a lot of unknowns but what we do know right now is it's not a v-shaped recovery agree especially on the unknowns there's monetary policy there's fiscal policy there's an election coming up there's a third there's escalating tensions with China there's your thoughts on the efficacy of the vaccine what about therapeutics you know do people who have this yet immunity how many people actually have it what about testing so the point I'm making here is it's very very important that you update your forecast regularly that's why it's so great that I have this partnership with you guys because we you know you're constantly updating the numbers it's not just a one-shot deal so suck it you know thanks so much for coming on looking forward to having you on in in the coming weeks really appreciate it absolutely yeah well I will really start kind of digging into how a lot of these emerging technologies are faring because of kovat 19 so that's I'm actually interested to start thinking through the data myself so yeah well we'll do some reporting in the coming weeks about that as well well thanks everybody for watching this episode of the cube insights powered by ETR I'm Dave Volante for sauger kuraki check out ETR dot plus that's where all the ETR data lives i published weekly on wiki bon calm and silicon angle calm and reach me at evil on Tay we'll see you next time [Music]

(upbeat music) >> From theCUBE Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> As we've been reporting, the COVID-19 pandemic has created a bifurcated IT spending picture. And over the last several weeks, we've reported both in the macro and even some come at it from a vendor and a sector view. I mean, for example, we've reported on some of the companies that have really continued to thrive, we look at the NASDAQ and its near a toll-time hard. Companies like Okta and CrowdStrike, we've reported on Snowflake, UiPath. The sectors, RPA, some of the analytic databases around AI, maybe even to a lesser extent Cloud but still has a lot tailwinds relative to some of those on-prem infrastructure plays. Even companies like Cisco, bifurcated in and of themselves, where you see this more rocky side of the house doing quite well. The work-from-home stuff but maybe some of the traditional networking not as much. Well, now what if you flip that to really try to understand what's going on with the shape of the recovery which is the main narrative right now. Is it a V shape? Is it a U shape? What do people expect? And now to understand that, you really have to look at different industries because different industries are going to come back at a different pace. With me again is Sagar Kadakia, who's the Director of Research at ETR. Sagar, you guys are all over this, as usual timely information, it's great to see you again. Hope all is well in New York City. >> Thanks so much David, it's a pleasure to be back on again. >> Yeah, so where are we in the cycle? You've done a great job and very timely, ETR was the first to really put out data on the Covid impact with the server that ran from mid March to mid April. And now everybody's attention Sagar, is focused on, okay, we've started to come back, stores are starting to open, people are beginning to go out again and everybody wants to know what the shape of the recovery looks like. So, where are we actually in that research cycle for you guys? >> Yeah, no problem. So, like you said, in that kind of March, April timeframe, we really want to go out there and get an idea of what are going to be the budget impacts as it relates to IT because of COVID-19, right? So, we kind of ended off there around a decline of 5%. And coming into the year, the consensus was a growth of 4% or 5%, right? So, we saw about a 900 or 1000 base point swing, to the negative side. And then (murmurs) topic we covered in March and April were which sectors of vendors were going to benefit as a result of work-from-home. And so, now as we kind of fast forward to the research cycle as we kind of go more into May and into the summer, rather than asking those exact same question again, because it's just been maybe 40 or 50 days. We really want to (murmurs) on the recovery type as well as well as kind of more emerging private vendors, right? We want it to understand what's going to be the impact on these vendors that typically rely on larger conferences, more in person meetings, because these are younger technologies. There's not a lot of information about them. And so, last Thursday we launched our biannual emerging technology study. It covers roughly 300 private emerging technologies across maybe 60 sectors of technology. And in tandem, we've launched a COVID Flash Poll, right? What we want to do was kind of twofold. One really understand from CIOs the recovery type they had in mind, as well as if they were seeing any kind of permanent changes in their IT, stacks IT spend because of COVID-19. And so, if we kind of look at the first chart here, and kind of get more into that first question around recovery type, what we asked CIOs in this kind of COVID Flash Poll, again, we did it last Thursday was, what type of recovery are you expecting? Is it V-shaped so kind of of a brief decline, maybe 1/4, and then you're going to start seeing growth into 2 each 20. Is it U-shaped? So two to 3/4 of a decline or deceleration revenue, and you're kind of forecasting that growth in revenue as an organization to come back in 2021. Is it L-shaped, right? So, maybe three, four or 5/4 of a decline or deceleration. And very minimal to moderate growth or none of the above, your organization is actually benefiting from COVID-19, as we've seen some many reports. So, those are kind of the options that we gave CIOs and you kind of see them at first chart here. >> Well, interesting. And this is a survey, a flash of survey, 700 CIOs or approximately. And the interesting thing I really want to point out here is, the COVID pandemic, it didn't suppress all companies, and the return is it's not going to be a rising tide that lifts all ships. You really got to do your research. You have to understand the different sectors, really try to peel back the onion skin and understand why there are certain momentum, how certain organizations are accommodating the work from home. We heard several weeks ago, how there's a major change in networking mindsets we're talking about how security is changing. We're going to talk about some of the permanents, but it's really, really important to try to understand these different trends by different industries, which we're going to talk about in a minute. But if you take a look at this slide, I mean, obviously most people expect this U-shape decline. I mean, U-shape recovery rather. So it's two or 3/4 followed by some growth next year. But as we'll see, some of these industries are going to really go deeper with an L-shape recovery. And then it's really interesting that a pretty large and substantial portion see this as a tailwind, presumably those with strong SAS models, annual recurring revenue models, your thoughts? >> If we kind of start on this kind of aggregate chart, you're looking at about 44% of CEO's anticipate a U-shaped recovery, right? That's the largest bucket. Then you can see another 15% anticipate an L-shape recovery 14 on the V-shaped, and then 16% to your point that are kind of seeing this tailwind. But if we kind of focus on that largest bucket that U-shaped, one of the things to remember and again, when we asked this to CIOs within this kind of COVID Flash Poll, we also asked, can you give us some commentary? And so, one of the things that, or one of the themes that are kind of coming along with this U-shape recovery is CIOs are cautiously optimistic about this U-shape recovery. They believe that they can get back onto a growth cycle, into 2021, as long as there's a vaccine available. We don't go into a second wave of lockdowns. Economic activity picks up, a lot of the government actions become effective. So there are some kind of let's call it qualifiers, with this bucket of CIOs that are anticipating a U-shape recovery. What they're saying is that, "look, we are expecting these things to happen, "we're not expecting a lockdown, "we are expecting a vaccine. "And if that takes place, "then we do expect an uptake in growth, "or going back to kind of pre COVID levels in 2021." But I think it's fair to assume that if one or more of these are ups and things do get worse as all these States are opening up, maybe the recovery cycle gets pushed along. So kind of at the aggregate, this is where we are right now. >> Yeah. So as I was saying, you really have to understand the different, not only different sectors not only the different vendors, but you can really get to look into the industries, and then even within industries. So if we pull up the next chart, we have the industry sort of break down, and sort of the responses by the industry's V-shape, U-shape or L-shape. I had a conversation with a CIO of a major resort, just the other day. And even he was saying, well, it was actually, I'll tell you it was Wyndham Resorts, public company. I mean, and obviously that business got crushed. They had their earnings call the other day. They talked about how they cut their capex in half. But the stock, Sagar, since the March loss is more than doubled. >> Yeah. >> It was just amazing. And now, but even there, within that sector, they're appealing that on you are doing well, certain parts are going to come back sooner, certain parts are going to take longer, depending on, what type of resort, what type of hotel. So, it really is a complicated situation. So, take us through what you're seeing by industry. >> Yeah, sure. So let's start with kind of the IT-Telco, retail, consumer space. Dave to your point, there's going to be a tremendous amount of bifurcation within both of those verticals. Look, if we start on the IT-Telco side, you're seeing a very large bucket of individuals, right over 20%? That indicated they're seeing a tailwind or additional revenue because of COVID-19 and Dave, we spoke about this all the way back in March, right? All these work from home vendors. CIOs were doubling down on Cloud and SAS and we've seen how some of these vendors have reported in April, with very good reports, all the major Cloud vendors, right? Like Select Security vendors. And so, that's why you're seeing on the kind of Telco side, definitely more positivity, right? As you relates to recovery type, right? Some of them are not even going through recovery. They're seeing an acceleration, same thing on the retail consumer side. You're seeing another large bucket of people who are indicating, "look, we've benefited." And again, there's going to be a lot of bifurcation, there's been a lot of retail consumers. You just mentioned with the hotel lines, that are definitely hurting. But if you have a good online presence as a retailer, and you had essential goods or groceries, you benefited. And those are the organizations that we're seeing really indicate that they saw an acceleration due to COVID-19. So, I thought those two verticals between kind of the IT and retail side, there was a big bucket of people who indicated positivity. So I thought that was kind of the first kind of as we talked about kind of feeling this onion back. That was really interesting. >> Tech continues to power on, and I think a lot of people try, I think somebody was saying that the record time in which we've developed a vaccine previously was like mumps or something. I mean, it was just like years. But now today, 2020, we've got AI, we've got all this data, you've got these great companies all working on this. And so, wow, if we can compress that, that's going to change the equation. A couple of other things Sagar that jump out at me here in this chart that I want to ask you about. I mean, the education, the colleges, are really kind of freaking out right now, some are coming back. I know, like for instance, my daughter at University of Arizona, they're coming back in the fall indefinitely, others are saying, no. You can clearly see the airlines and transportation, has the biggest sort of L-shape, which is the most negative. I'm sure restaurants and hospitality are kind of similar. And then you see energy which got crushed. We had oil (laughs) negative people paying it, big barrels of oil. But now look at that, expectation of a pretty strong, U-shape recovery as people start driving again, and the economy picks up. So, maybe you could give us some thoughts on some of those sort of outliers. >> Yeah. So I kind of bucket the next two outliers as from an L-shaped and a U-shaped. So on the L-shaped side, like you said, education airlines, transportation, and probably to a little bit lesser extent, industrials materials, manufacturing services consulting. These verticals are indicating the highest percentages from an L-shaped recovery, right? So, three plus 1/4 of revenue declines in deceleration, followed by kind of minimal to moderate growth. And look, there's no surprise here. Those are the verticals that have been impacted the most, by less demand from consumers and businesses. And then as you mentioned on the energy utility side, and then I would probably bucket maybe healthcare, pharma, those have some of the largest, percentages of U-shaped recovery. And it's funny, like I read a lot of commentary from some of the energy and the healthcare CIOs, and they were saying they were very optimistic (laughs) about a U-shaped type of recovery. And so it kind of, maybe with those two issues that we could even kind of lump them into, probably to a lesser extent, but you could probably lump it into the prior one with the airlines and the education and services consulting, and IMM, where these are definitely the verticals that are going to see the longest, longest recoveries. And it's probably a little bit more uniform, versus what we've kind of talked about a few minutes ago with IT and retail consumer where it's definitely very bifurcated. There's definitely winners and losers there. >> Yeah. And again, it's a very complicated situation. A lot of people that I've talked to are saying, "look, we really don't have a clear picture, "that's why all these companies are not giving guidance." Many people, however, are optimistic only for a vaccine, but also their thinking is young people with disposable income, they're going to kind of say,"Damn the torpedoes, "I'm not really going to be exposed." >> And they could come back much stronger, there seems to be pent up demand for some of the things like elective surgery, or even some other sort of more important, healthcare needs. So, that obviously could be a snapback. So, obviously we're really closely looking at this, one thing though is certain, is that people are expecting a permanent change, and you've got data that really shows that on the next chart. >> That's right. So, one of the last questions that we ask kind of this quick COVID Flash Poll was, do you anticipate permanent changes to your kind of IT stack, IT spend, based on the last few months? As everyone has been working remotely, and rarely do you see results point this much in one direction, but 92% of CIOs and kind of high level IT end users indicated yes, there are all going to be permanent changes. And one of the things we talked about in March, and look, we were really the first ones, in our discussion, where we were talking about work from home spend, kind of negating or bouncing out all these declines, right? We were saying, look, yes, we are seeing a lot of budgets come down, but surprisingly, we're seeing 20,30% of organizations accelerate spend. And even the ones that are spending less, even them, some of their budgets are kind of being negated by this work from home spend, right? When you think about collaboration tools and additional VPN and networking bandwidth, and laptops and then security, all that stuff. CIOs now continue to spend on, because what CIOs now understand is productivity has remained at very high levels, right? In March CIOs were very concerned with the catastrophe and productivity that has not come true. So on the margin CIOs and organizations are probably much more positive on that front. And so now, because there is no vaccine, where we know CIOs and just in general, the population, we don't know when one is coming. And so remote work seems to be the new norm moving forward, especially that productivity levels are pretty good with people working from home. So, from that perspective, everything that looked like it was maybe going to be temporary, just for the next few months, as people work from home, that's how organizations are now moving forward. >> Well, and we saw Twitter, basically said, "we're going to make work from home permanent." That's probably because their CEO wants to live in Africa. Google, I think, is going to the end of the year. >> I think many companies are going to look at a hybrid, and give employees a choice, say, "look, if you want to work from home "and you can be productive, you get your stuff done, we're cool with that." I think the other point is, everybody talks about these digital transformations leading into COVID. I got to tell you, I think a lot of companies were sort of complacent. They talk the talk, but they weren't walking the walk, meaning they really weren't becoming digital businesses. They really weren't putting data at the core. And I think now it's really becoming an imperative. And there's no question that what we've been talking about and forecasting has been pulled forward, and you're either going to have to step up your digital game or you're going to be in big trouble. And the other thing I'm really interested in is will companies sub-optimize profitability in the near term, in order to put better business resiliency in place, and better flexibility, will they make those investments? And I think if they do, longer term, they're going to be in better shape. If they don't, they could maybe be okay in the near term, but I'm going to put up a caution sign, although the longer term. >> Now look, I think everything that's been done in the last few months, in terms of having those continuation plans, due to pandemics and all that stuff, look, you got to have that in your playbook, right? And so to your point, this is where CIOs are going and if you're not transforming yourself or you didn't before, lesson learned, because now you're probably having to move twice as fast to support all your employees. So I think this pandemic really kind of sped up digital transformation initiatives, which is why, you're seeing some companies, SAS and Cloud related companies, with very good earnings reports that are guiding well. And then you're seeing other companies that are pulling their guidance because of uncertainty, but it's likely more on the side if they're just not seeing the same levels of spend, because if they haven't oriented themselves, on that digital transformation side. So I think events like this, they typically showcase winners and losers than when things are going well. and everything's kind of going up. >> Well, I think that too, there's a big discussion around is the S&P over valued right now. I won't make that call, but I will say this, that there's a lot of data out there. There's data in earnings reports, there's data about this pandemic, which it continues to change. Maybe not so much daily, but we're getting new information, multiple times a week. So you got to look to that data. You got to make your call, pick your spots, earlier you talk about a stock pickers market. I think it's very much true here. There are some going to be really strong companies. emerging out of this, don't gamble but do your research. And I think you'll find some gems out there, maybe Warren buffet can't find them okay. (laughs) But the guys at main street. I'm optimistic, I wonder how you feel about the recovery. I think I maybe tainted by tech. (laughs). I'm very much concerned about certain industries, but I think the tech industry, which is our business's, going to come out of this pretty strong? >> Yeah. Look, the one thing we should have stated this earlier, the majority of organizations are not expecting a V-shaped recovery. And yet I still think there's part of the consensus is expecting a V-shaped recovery. You can see as we demonstrate in some of the earlier charts, That U-shaped, there is some cautious optimism around there, almost the majority of organizations are expecting a U-shape recovery. And even then, as we mentioned, right? That U-shape, there is some cautious optimism around there, and I have it, you probably have it where. Yes, if everything goes well, it looks like 2021 we can really get back on track. But there's so much unknown. And so yes, that does give I think everyone pause when it comes from an investment perspective, and even just bringing on technologies. into your organization, right? Which ones are going to work, which ones aren't? So, I'm definitely on the boat of, this is a more U-shaped in a V-shape recovery. I think the data backs that up. I think when it comes to Cloud and SAS players, those areas, and I think you've seen this on the investment side, a lot of money has come out of all these other sectors that we mentioned that are having these L-shaped recoveries. A lot of it has gone into the text-based. I imagine that will continue. And so that might be kind of, it's tough to sometimes balance what's going on, on the investment that stock market side, with how organizations are recovering. I think people are really looking out into two, 3/4 and saying, look to your point where you said that earlier, is there a lot of that pent up demand, are things going to get right back to normal? Because I think a lot of people are anticipating that. And if we don't see that, I think the next time we do some of these kind of COVID Flash Polls I'm interested to see whether or not, maybe towards the end of the summer, these recovery cycles are actually longer because maybe we didn't see some of that stuff. So there's still a lot of unknowns. But what we do know right now is it's not a V-shaped recovery. >> I agree, especially on the unknowns, there's monetary policy, there's fiscal policy, there's an election coming up. >> That's fine. >> There's escalating tensions with China. There's your thoughts on the efficacy of the vaccine? what about therapeutics? Do people who've had this get immunity? How many people actually have it? What about testing? So the point I'm making here is it's very, very important that you update your forecast regularly That's why it's so great to have this partnership with you guys, because you're constantly updating the numbers. It's not just a one shot deal. So Sagar, thanks so much for coming on. I'm looking forward to having you on in the coming weeks. Really appreciate it. >> Absolutely. Yeah, we'll really start kind of digging into how a lot of these emerging technologies are fairing because of COVID-19. So, I'm actually interested to start digging through the data myself. So yeah, we'll do some reporting in the coming weeks about that as well. >> Well, thanks everybody for watching this episode of theCUBE Insights powered by ETR. I'm Dave Vellante for Sagar Kadakia, check out etr.plus, that's where all the ETR data lives, I publish weekly on wikibond.com and siliconangle.com. And you can reach me @dvellante. We'll see you next time. (gentle music).

>>from the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all >>around the world. This is a cube conversation, Everyone. Welcome to this week's Cube insights, powered by ET are My name is Dave Volante, and we've been reporting every week really on the code. 19. Impact on Budgets Docker Korakia is back in with me soccer. It's great to see you really >>again for having >>your very welcome. Soccer is, of course, the director of research, that we are our data partner and man. I mean, you guys have just been digging into the data or a court reiterate We're down, you know, roughly around minus 5% for the year. The thing about what we're doing here and where they want to stress in the audience that that's going to change. The key point is we don't just do ah, placeholder and update you in December. Every time we get new information, we're going to convey it to you. So let's get right into it. What we want to do today is you kind of part two from the takeaways that we did last week. So let's start with the macro guys. If you bring up the first chart, take us through kind of the top three takeaways. And just to reiterate where we're at >>Yeah, no problem. And look, as you mentioned, uh, what we're doing right now is we're collecting the pulse of CIOs. And so things change on and we continue to expect them to change, you know, in the next few weeks, in the next few months, as things change with it. So just kind of give a recap of the survey and then kind of going through some of our top macro takeaways. So in March mid March, we launched our Technology Spending Intention Survey. We had 1250 CIOs approximately. Take that survey. They provided their updated 2020 verse 2019 spending intentions, right? So effectively, they first Davis, those 20 21st 19 spending intentions in January. And then they went ahead and up state of those based on what happened with move it and then in tandem with that, we did this kind of over 19 drill down survey where we asked CEOs to estimate the budget impact off overnight in versus what they originally forecast in the year. And so that leads us to our first take away here, where we essentially aggregated the data from all these CIOs in that Logan 19 drill down survey. And we saw a revision of 900 basis points so down to a decline of 5%. And so coming into the year, the consensus was about 4% growth. Ah, and now you can see we're down about 5% for the year. And again, that's subject to change. And we're going again re measure that a Z kind of get into June July and we have a couple of months under our belt with the folks at night. The second big take away here is, you know, the industries that are really indicating those declines and spend retail, consumer airlines, financials, telco I key services in consulting. Those are the verticals, as we mentioned last week, that we're really seeing some of the largest Pullbacks and spend from consumers and businesses. So it makes sense that they are revising their budgets downwards the most. And then finally, the last thing we captured that we spoke about last week as well as a few weeks before that, and I think that's really been playing out the last kind of week in 1/2 earnings is CIOs are continuing to press the pedal on digital transformation. Right? We saw that with Microsoft, with service now last night, right, those companies continued the post good numbers and you see good demand, what we're seeing and where those declines that we just mentioned earlier are coming from. It's it's the legacy that's the on premise that your place there's such a concentration of loss and deceleration within some of those companies. And we'll kind of get into that more a Z go through more slides. But that's really what kind of here, you know, that's really what we need to focus on is the declines are coming from very select vendors. >>Yeah, and of course you know where we were in earning season now, and we're paying close attention to that. A lot of people say I just ignore the earnings here, you know, you got the over 19 Mulligan, but But that's really not right. I mean, obviously you want to look at balance sheets, you want to look at cash flows, but also we're squinting through some of the data your point about I t services and insulting is interesting. I saw another research firm put out that you know, services and consulting was going to be OK. Our data does, you know, different. Uh, and we're watching. For instance, Jim Kavanaugh on IBM's earnings call was very specific about the metrics that they're watching. They're obviously very concerned about pricing and their ability. The book business. There we saw the cloud guys announced Google was up in the strong fifties. The estimate is DCP was even higher up in the 80% range. Azure, you know, we'll talk about this killing it. I mean, you guys have been all over of Microsoft and its presence, you know, high fifties aws solid at around 34% growth from a larger base. But as we've been reporting, you know, downturns. They've been they've been good to cloud. >>That's right. And I think, you know, based on the data that we've captured, um, you know, it's people are really pressing the pedal on cloud and SAS with this much remote work, you need to have you know, that structure in place to maintain productivity. >>Okay, let's bring up the next slide. Now. We've been reporting a lot on this sort of next generation work loads Bob one Dato all about storage and infrastructures of service. Compute. There's an obviously some database, but there's a new analytics workload emerging. Uh, and it's kind of replacing, or at least disinter mediating or disrupting the traditional e d ws. I've said for years. CDW is failed to live up to its expectations of 360 degree insights and real time data, and that's really what we're showing here is some of the traditional CDW guys are getting hit on Some of the emerging guys, um, are looking pretty good. So take us through what we're looking at here. Soccer. >>Yeah, no problem. So we're looking at the database data warehousing sector. What you're looking at here is replacement rates. Um And so, as example, if you see up in with roughly 20% replacement, what that means is one out of five people who took the survey for that particular sector for that vendor indicated that they were replacing, and so you can see here for their data. Cloudera, IBM, Oracle. They have very elevated and accelerating replacement rates. And so when we kind of think about this space. You can really see the bifurcation, right? Look how well positioned the Microsoft AWS is. Google Mongo, Snowflake, low replacements, right low, consistent replacements. And then, of course, on the left hand side of the screen, you're really seeing elevated, accelerating. And so this space is It kind of goes with that theme that we've been talking about that we covered last week by application, right when you think about the declines that you're seeing and spend again, it's very targeted for a lot of these kind of legacy legacy vendors. And we're again. We're seeing a lot of the next gen players that Microsoft AWS in your post very strong data. And so here, looking within database, it's very clear as to which vendors are well positioned for 2020 and which ones look like they're being ripped out and swapped out in the next few months. >>So this to me, is really interesting. So you know, you you've certainly reported on the impact that snowflake is having on Terra data. And in some of IBM's business, the old man, he's a business. You can see that here. You know, it's interesting. During the Hadoop days, Cloudera Horton works when they realize that it didn't really make money on Hadoop. They sort of getting the data management and data database and you're seeing that is under pressure. It's kind of interesting to me. Oracle, you know, is still not what we're seeing with terror data, right, Because they've got a stranglehold on the marketplace That's right, hanging in there. Right? But that snowflake would no replacements is very impressive. Mongo consistent performer. And in Google aws, Microsoft AWS supports with Red Shift. They did a one time license with Park Cell, which was an MPP database. They totally retooled a thing. And now they're sort of interestingly copycatting snowflake separating compute from storage and doing some other moves. And yet they're really strong partners. So interesting >>is going on and even, you know, red shift dynamodb all. They all look good. All these all these AWS products continue screen Very well. Ah, in the data warehousing space, So yeah, to your point, there's a clear divergence of which products CIOs want to use and which ones they no longer want in their stack. >>Yeah, the database market is very much now fragment that it used to be in an Oracle db two sequel server. As you mentioned, you got a lot of choices. The Amazon. I think I counted, you know, 10 data stores, maybe more. Dynamodb Aurora, Red shift on and on and on. So a really interesting space, a lot of activity in that new workload that I'm talking about taking, Ah, analytic databases, bringing data science, pooling into that space and really driving these real time insights that we've been reporting on. So that's that's quite an exciting space. Let's talk about this whole workflow. I t s m a service now. Just just announced, uh, we've been consistently crushing it. The Cube has been following them for many, many years, whether, you know, from the early days of Fred Luddy, Bruce Lukman, the short time John Donahoe. And now Bill McDermott is the CEO, but consistent performance since the AIPO. But what are we actually showing here? Saga? Yeah, You bring up that slot. Thank you. >>So our key take away on kind of the i t m m i t s m i t workflow spaces. Look, it's best in breed, which is service now, or some of the lower cost providers. Right There's really no room for middle of the pack, so >>this is an >>interesting charts. And so what you're looking at here, there's a few directives, so kind of walk you through it and then I'll walk through. The actual results is we're looking within service now accounts. And so we're seeing how these companies are doing within or among customers that are using service. Now, today, where you're looking at on the ex, access is essentially shared market share our shared customers, and then on the Y axis you're seeing essentially the spend velocity off those vendors within service. Now's outs, right? So if the vendor was doing well, you would see them moving up into the right, right? That means they're having more customer overlap with service now, and they're also accelerating Spend, but you can see if you will get zendesk. If you look at BMC, it's a managed right. You can see there either losing market share and spend within service now accounts or they're losing spend right and zendesk is another example Here, Um, and what's actually interesting is, and we've had a lot of anecdotal evidence from CIOs is that look they start with service. Now it's best in breed, but a few of them have said, Look, it's got expensive, Um, and so they would move over Rezendes. And then they would look at it versus a conference that last year, and we had a few CEO say, Look at last quarter of the price of zendesk. Andi moved away from Zendesk and subsequently well, with last year. And so it's just it's interesting that, you know, during these times where you know CIOs are reducing their budgets on that look, it's either best of breed or low cost. There's really no room in the middle, and so it's actually kind of interesting. In this space, it's It's an interesting dynamic and being usually it's best of breed or low cost. Rarely do you kind of see both win, and I think that's what kind of makes the space interesting. >>I've been following service now for a number of years. I just make a few comments there. First of all, you know, workday was the gold standard in enterprise software for the longest time and, you know, company and and and I I always considered service now to be kind of part of that you know Silicon Valley Mafia with Frank's Loop. But what's happened is, you know, Sluman did a masterful job of identifying the total available market and executing with demand, and now you know, his successors have picking it beyond there. You know, service now has a market cap that's not quite double, but I mean, I think workday last I checked was in the mid thirties. Service now is market valuation is up in the 60 billion range. I mean, they announced, um uh, just recently, very interestingly, they be expectations. They lowered their guidance relative to consensus guide, but I think the street hose, first of all, they beat their numbers and they've got that SAS model, that very predictable model. And I think people are saying, Look there, just leaving meat on the bone so they can continue to be because that's been their sort of m o these last several years. So you got to like their positioning and you get to talk to customers. They are pricey. You do hear complaints about that, and they've got a strong lock spec. But generally I got my experiences. If people can identify business value and clear productivity, they work through the lock in, you know, they'll just fight it out in the negotiations with procurement. >>That's right, and two things on that. So with service now and and even Salesforce, right, they are a platform like approach type of vendors right where you build on them. And that's what makes them such break companies, right? Even if they have, you know, little nicks and knacks here and there. When they report people see past that right, they understand their best of breed. You build your companies on the service now's and the sales forces of the world. And to the second point, you're exactly right. Businesses want to maintain consistent productivity on, and I think that, you know, is it kind of resonates with the theme, right, doubling down on Cloud and sas. Um, as as you have all this remote work, as you have kind of, you know, questionable are curating marquee a macro environment organizations want to make sure that their employees continue to execute that they're generating consistent productivity. And using these kind of best of breed tools is the way to go. >>It's interesting you mentioned, uh, salesforce and service now for years I've been saying they're on a collision course we haven't seen yet because they're both platforms. I still, uh I'm waiting for that to happen. Let's bring up the next card and let's get into networking way talk. Um Ah. Couple of weeks ago, about the whole shift from traditional Mpls moving to SD win. And this sort of really lays it out. Take us through the data here, please. >>Yeah, no problem. So we're just looking at a handful of vendors here. Really? We're looking at networking vendors that have the highest adoption rates within cloud accounts. And so what we did was we looked inside of aws azure GCC, right. We essentially isolated just those customers. And then we said which networking vendors are seeing the best spend data and the most adoptions within those cloud accounts. And so you get you can kind of see some, uh, some themes here, right? SD lan. Right. You can see Iraqi their VM. Where nsx. You see some next gen load balance saying are they're on the cdn side right then. And so you're seeing a theme here of more next gen players on You're not really seeing a lot of the mpls vendors here, right? They're the ones that have more flattening, decreasing and replacing data. And so the reason just kind of going on this slide is you know, when you kind of think about the networking space as a whole, this is where adoptions are going. This is this is where spends billing and expanded, arise it. And what we just talked about >>your networking such a fascinating space to me because you got you got the leader and Cisco That has helped 2/3 of the market for the longest time, despite competitors like Arista, Juniper and others trying to get in the Air Force and NSX. And the big Neisseria acquisition, you know, kind of potentially disrupted that. But you can see, you know, Cisco, they don't go down without a fight. And ah, there, let's take a look at the next card on Cdn. You know, this is interesting. Uh, you know, you think with all this activity around work from home and remote offices, there's a hot area, But what are we looking at here? >>Yeah, no problem. And that's right, right? You would think. And so we're looking at Cdn players here you would think with the uptake in traffic, you would see fantastic. That scores right for all the cdn vendor. So what you're looking at here and again there's a few lenses on here, so I kind of walk. You kind of walk the audience through here is first we isolated only those individuals that were accelerating their budgets due to work from home. Right. So we've had this conversation now for a few weeks where support employees working from home. You did see a decent number of organizations. I think it was 20 or 30% of organizations at the per server that indicated they're actually accelerate instead. So we're looking at those individuals. And then what we're doing is we're seeing how are how's Cloudflare and aka my performing within those accounts, right? And so we're looking at those specific customers and you could just see within Cloudflare and we practice and security and networking which by more the Cdn piece, How consistent elevated the date is right? This is spend in density, right? Not overall market share is obviously aka my you know, their brand father CD ends. They have the most market share and if you look at optimized to the right. Now you can see the spend velocity is not very good. It's actually negative across boats sector. So you know it's not. We're not saying that. Look, there's a changing of the guard that's occurring right now. We're still relatively small compared talk my But there's just such a start on trust here and again, it kind of goes to what we're talking about. Our macro themes, right? CIOs are continuing to invest in next gen Technologies, and better technologies on that is having an impact on some of these legacy. And, you know, grandfather providers. >>Well, I mean, I think as we enter this again, I've said a number of times. It's ironic overhead coming into a new decade. And you're seeing this throughout the I T. Stack, where you've got a lot of disruptors and you've got companies with large install bases, lot of on Prem or a lot of historical legacy. Yeah, and it's very hard for them to show growth. They often times squeeze R and D because they gotta serve Wall Street. And this is the kind of dilemma they're in, and the only good news with a comma here is there is less bad security go from negative 20% to a negative 8% net score. Um, but wow, what a what a contrast, but to your point, much, much smaller base, but still very relevant. We've seen this movie before. Let's let's wrap with another area that we've talked about. What is virtualization? Desktop virtualization? Beady eye again. A beneficiary of the work from home pivot. Um, And we're focused here, right on Fortune 500 net scores. But give us the low down on this start. >>Yeah, So this is something that look, I think it's it's pretty obvious to into the market you're seeing an uptake and spend across the board versus three months ago in a year ago and spending, etc. Among your desktop virtualization players, there's FBI, right? So that's gonna be your VPN right now. Obviously, they reported pretty good numbers there, so this is an obvious slide, but we wanted to kind of throw it in there. Just say, look, you know, these organizations are seeing nice upticks incent, you know, within the virtualization sectors, specifically within Fortune 500 again, that's kind of, you know, work from home spend that we're seeing here, >>right? So, I mean, this is really a 100% net score in the Fortune 500 for workspaces is pretty amazing. And I think the shared in on this that the end was actually quite large. It wasn't like single digits, Many dozens. I remember when Workspaces first came out, it maybe wasn't ready for prime time. But clearly there's momentum there, and we're seeing this across the board saga. Thanks so much for coming in this week. Really appreciate it. We're gonna be in touch with with you with the TR. We're gonna continue to report on this, but start Dr stay safe. And thanks again. >>Thanks again. Appreciate it. Looking for to do another one. >>All right. Thank you. Everybody for watching this Cube insights Powered by ET are this is Dave Volante for Dr Sadaaki. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcasts. I published weekly on wiki bond dot com Uh, and also on silicon angle dot com Don't forget tr dot Plus, Check out all the action there. Thanks for watching everybody. We'll see you next time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

>> Jeff: Hello, everybody, and thank you for joining us today for the virtual Vertica BDC 2020. Today's breakout session is entitled "A Deep Dive "into the Vertica Mangement Console Enhancements and Roadmap." I'm Jeff Healey of Vertica Marketing. I'll be your host for this breakout session. Joining me are Bhavik Gandhi and Natalia Stavisky from Vertica engineering. But before we begin, I encourage you to submit questions or comments during the virtual session. You don't have to wait, just type your question or comment in the question box below the slides and click submit. There will be a Q and A session at the end of the presentation. We'll answer as many questions as we're able to during that time. Any questions we don't address, we'll do our best to answer them offline. Alternatively visit Vertica Forums at forum.vertica.com. Post your question there after the session. Our engineering team is planning to join the forums to keep the conversation going well after the event. Also, a reminder that you can maximize the screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of the slides. And yes, this virtual session is being recorded and will be available to you on demand this week. We'll send you a notification as soon as it's ready. Now let's get started. Over to you, Bhavik. >> Bhavik: All right. So hello, and welcome, everybody doing this presentation of "Deep Dive into the Vertica Management Console Enhancements and Roadmap." Myself, Bhavik, and my team member, Natalia Stavisky, will go over a few useful announcements on Vertica Management Console, discussing a few real scenarios. All right. So today we will go forward with the brief introduction about the Management Console, then we will discuss the benefits of using Management Console by going over a couple of user scenarios for the query taking too long to run and receiving email alerts from Management Console. Then we will go over a few MC features for what we call Eon Mode databases, like provisioning and reviving the Eon Mode databases from MC, managing the subcluster and understanding the Depot. Then we will go over some of the future announcements on MC that we are planning. All right, so let's get started. All right. So, do you want to know about how to provision a new Vertica cluster from MC? How to analyze and understand a database workload by monitoring the queries on the database? How do you balance the resource pools and use alerts and thresholds on MC? So, the Management Console is basically our answer and we'll talk about its capabilities and new announcements in this presentation. So just to give a brief overview of the Management Console, who uses Management Console, it's generally used by IT administrators and DB admins. Management Console can be used to monitor both Eon Mode and Enterprise Mode databases. Why to use Management Console? You can use Management Console for provisioning Vertica databases and cluster. You can manage the already existing Vertica databases and cluster you have, and you can use various tools on Management Console like query execution, Database Designer, Workload Analyzer, and set up alerts and thresholds to get notified by some of your activities on the MC. So let's go over a few benefits of using Management Console. Okay. So using Management Console, you can view and optimize resource pool usage. Management Console helps you to identify some critical conditions on your Vertica cluster. Additionally, you can set up various thresholds thresholds in MC and get other data if those thresholds are triggered on the database. So now let's dig into the couple of scenarios. So for the first scenario, we will discuss about queries taking too long and using workload analyzer to possibly help to solve the problem. In the second scenario, we will go over alert email that you received from your Management Console and analyzing the problem and taking required actions to solve the problem. So let's go over the scenario where queries are taking too long to run. So in this example, we have this one query that we are running using the query execution on MC. And for some reason we notice that it's taking about 14.8 seconds seconds to execute this query, which is higher than the expected run time of the query. The query that we are running happens to be the query used by MC during the extended monitoring. Notice that the table name and the schema name which is ds_requests_issued, and, is the schema used for extended monitoring. Now in 10.0 MC we have redesigned the Workload Analyzer and Recommendations feature to show the recommendations and allow you to execute those recommendations. In our example, we have taken the table name and figured the tuning descriptions to see if there are any tuning recommendations related to this table. As we see over here, there are three tuning recommendations available for that table. So now in 10.0 MC, you can select those recommendations and then run them. So let's run the recommendations. All right. So once recommendations are run successfully, you can go and see all the processed recommendations that you have run previously. Over here we see that there are three recommendations that we had selected earlier have successfully processed. Now we take the same query and run it on the query execution on MC and hey, it's running really faster and we see that it takes only 0.3 seconds to run the query and, which is about like 98% decrease in original runtime of the query. So in this example we saw that using a Workload Analyzer tool on MC you can possibly triage and solve issue for your queries which are taking to long to execute. All right. So now let's go over another user scenario where DB admin's received some alert email messages from MC and would like to understand and analyze the problem. So to know more about what's going on on the database and proactively react to the problems, DB admins using the Management Console can create set of thresholds and get alerted about the conditions on the database if the threshold values is reached and then respond to the problem thereafter. Now as a DB admin, I see some email message notifications from MC and upon checking the emails, I see that there are a couple of email alerts received from MC on my email. So one of the messages that I received was for Query Resource Rejections greater than 5, pool, midpool7. And then around the same time, I received another email from the MC for the Failed Queries greater than 5, and in this case I see there are 80 failed queries. So now let's go on the MC and investigate the problem. So before going into the deep investigation about failures, let's review the threshold settings on MC. So as we see, we have set up the thresholds under the database settings page for failed queries in the last 10 minutes greater than 5 and MC should send an email to the individual if the threshold is triggered. And also we have a threshold set up for queries and resource rejections in the last five minutes for midpool7 set to greater than 5. There are various other thresholds on this page that you can set if you desire to. Now let's go and triage those email alerts about the failed queries and resource rejections that we had received. To analyze the failed queries, let's take a look at the query statistics page on the database Overview page on MC. Let's take a look at the Resource Pools graph and especially for the failed queries for each resource pools. And over to the right under the failed query section, I see about like, in the last 24 hours, there are about 6,000 failed queries for midpool7. And now I switch to view to see the statistics for each user and on this page I see for User MaryLee on the right hand side there are a high number of failed queries in last 24 hours. And to know more about the failed queries for this user, I can click on the graph for this user and get the reasons behind it. So let's click on the graph and see what's going on. And so clicking on this graph, it takes me to the failed queries view on the Query Monitoring page for database, on Database activities tab. And over here, I see there are a high number of failed queries for this user, MaryLee, with the reasons stated as, exceeding high limit. To drill down more and to know more reasons behind it, I can click on the plus icon on the left hand side for each failed queries to get the failure reason for each node on the database. So let's do that. And clicking the plus icon, I see for the two nodes that are listed, over here it says there are insufficient resources like memory and file handles for midpool7. Now let's go and analyze the midpool7 configurations and activities on it. So to do so, I will go over to the Resource Pool Monitoring view and select midpool7. I see the resource allocations for this resource pool is very low. For example, the max memory is just 1MB and the max concurrency is set to 0. Hmm, that's very odd configuration for this resource pool. Also in the bottom right graph for the resource rejections for midpool7, the graph shows very high values for resource rejection. All right. So since we saw some odd configurations and odd resource allocations for midpool7, I would like to see when this resource, when the settings were changed on the resource pools. So to do this, I can preview the audit logs on, are available on the Management Console. So I can go onto the Vertica Audit Logs and see the logs for the resource pool. So I just (mumbles) for the logs and figuring the logs for midpool7. I see on February 17th, the memory and other attributes for midpool7 were modified. So now let's analyze the resource activity for midpool7 around the time when the configurations were changed. So in our case we are using extended monitoring on MC for this database, so we can go back in time and see the statistics over the larger time range for midpool7. So viewing the activities for midpool7 around February 17th, around the time when these configurations were changed, we see a decrease in resource pool usage. Also, on the bottom right, we see the resource rejections for this midpool7 have an increase, linear increase, after the configurations were changed. I can select a point on the graph to get the more details about the resource rejections. Now to analyze the effects of the modifications on midpool7. Let's go over to the Query Monitoring page. All right, I will adjust the time range around the time when the configurations were changed for midpool7 and completed activities queries for user MaryLee. And I see there are no completed queries for this user. Now I'm taking a look at the Failed Queries tab and adjusting the time range around the time when the configurations were changed. I can do so because we are using extended monitoring. So again, adjusting the time, I can see there are high number of failed queries for this user. There about about like 10,000 failed queries for this user after the configurations were changed on this resource pool. So now let's go and modify the settings since we know after the configurations were changed, this user was not able to run the queries. So you can change the resource pool settings of using Management Console's database settings page and under the Resource Pools tab. So selecting the midpool7, I see the same odd configurations for this resource pool that we saw earlier. So now let's go and modify it, the settings. So I will increase the max memory and modify the settings for midpool7 so that it has adequate resources to run the queries for the user. Hit apply on the right hand top to see the settings. Now let's do the validation after we change the resource pool attributes. So let's go over to the same query monitoring page and see if MaryLee user is able to run the queries for midpool7. We see that now, after the configuration, after the change, after we changed the configuration for midpool7, the user can run the queries successfully and the count for Completed Queries has increased after we modified the settings for this midpool7 resource pool. And also viewing the resource pool monitoring page, we can validate that after the new configurations for midpool7 has been applied and also the resource pool usage after the configuration change has increased. And also on the bottom right graph, we can see that the resource rejections for midpool7 has decreased over the time after we modified the settings. And since we are using extended monitoring for this database, I can see that the trend in data for these resource pools, the before and after effects of modifying the settings. So initially when the settings were changed, there were high resource rejections and after we again modified the settings, the resource rejections went down. Right. So now let's go work with the provisioning and reviving the Eon Mode Vertica database cluster using the Management Console on different platform. So Management Console supports provisioning and reviving of Eon Mode databases on various cloud environments like AWS, the Google Cloud Platform, and Pure Storage. So for Google, for provisioning the Vertica Management Console on Google Cloud Platform you can use launch a template. Or on AWS environment you can use the cloud formation templates available for different OS's. Once you have provisioned Vertica Management Console, you can provision the Vertica cluster and databases from MC itself. So you can provision a Vertica cluster, you can select the Create new database button available on the homepage. This will open up the wizard to create a new database and cluster. In this example, we are using we are using the Google Cloud Platform. So the wizard will ask me for varius authentication parameters for the Google Cloud Platform. And if you're on AWS, it'll ask you for the authentication parameters for the AWS environment. And going forward on the Wizard, it'll ask me to select the instance Type. I will select for the new Vertica cluster. And also provide the communal location url for my Eon Mode database and all the other preferences related to the new cluster. Once I have selected all the preferences for my new cluster I can preview the settings and I can hit, if I am, I can hit Create if all looks okay. So if I hit Create, this will create a new, MC will create a new GCP instances because we are on the GCP environment in this example. It will create a cluster on this instance, it'll create a Vertica Eon Mode Database on this cluster. And it will, additionally, you can load the test data on it if you like to. Now let's go over and revive the existing Eon Mode database from the communal location. So you can do it the same using the Management Console by selecting the Revive Eon Mode database button on the homepage. This will again open up the wizard for reviving the Eon Mode database. Again, in this example, since we are using GCP Platform, it will ask me for the Google Cloud storage authentication attributes. And for reviving, it will ask me for the communal location so I can enter the Google Storage bucket and my folder and it will discover all the Eon Mode databases located under this folder. And I can select one of the databases that I would like to revive. And it will ask me for other Vertica preferences and for this video, for this database reviving. And once I enter all the preferences and review all the preferences I can hit Revive the database button on the Wizard. So after I hit Revive database it will create the GCP instances. The number of GCP instances that I created would be seen as the number of hosts on the original Vertica cluster. It will install the Vertica cluster on this data, on this instances and it will revive the database and it will start the database. And after starting the database, it will be imported on the MC so you can start monitoring on it. So in this example, we saw you can provision and revive the Vertica database on the GCP Platform. Additionally, you can use AWS environment to provision and revive. So now since we have the Eon Mode database on MC, Natalia will go over some Eon Mode features on MC like managing subcluster and Depot activity monitoring. Over to you, Natalia. >> Natalia: Okay, thank you. Hello, my name is Natalia Stavisky. I am also a member of Vertica Management Console Team. And I will talk today about the work I did to allow users to manage subclusters using the Management Console, and also the work I did to help users understand what's going on in their Depot in the Vertica Eon Mode database. So let's look at the picture of the subclusters. On the Manage page of Vertica Management Console, you can see here is a page that has blue tabs, and the tab that's active is Subclusters. You can see that there are two subclusters are available in this database. And for each of the subclusters, you can see subcluster properties, whether this is the primary subcluster or secondary. In this case, primary is the default subcluster. It's indicated by a star. You can see what nodes belong to each subcluster. You can see the node state and node statistics. You can also easily add a new subcluster. And we're quickly going to do this. So once you click on the button, you'll launch the wizard that'll take you through the steps. You'll enter the name of the subcluster, indicate whether this is secondary or primary subcluster. I should mention that Vertica recommends having only one primary subcluster. But we have both options here available. You will enter the number of nodes for your subcluster. And once the subcluster has been created, you can manage the subcluster. What other options for managing subcluster we have here? You can scale up an existing subcluster and that's a similar approach, you launch the wizard and (mumbles) nodes. You want to add to your existing subcluster. You can scale down a subcluster. And MC validates requirements for maintaining minimal number of nodes to prevent database shutdown. So if you can not remove any nodes from a subcluster, this option will not be available. You can stop a subcluster. And depending on whether this is a primary subcluster or secondary subcluster, this option may be available or not available. Like in this picture, we can see that for the default subcluster this option is not available. And this is because shutting down the default subcluster will cause the database to shut down as well. You can terminate a subcluster. And again, the MC warns you not to terminate the primary subcluster and validates requirements for maintaining minimal number of nodes to prevent database shutdown. So now we are going to talk a little more about how the MC helps you to understand what's going on in your Depot. So Depot is one of the core of Eon Mode database. And what are the frequently asked questions about the Depot? Is the Depot size sufficient? Are a subset of users putting a high load on the database? What tables are fetched and evicted repeatedly, we call it "re-fetched," in Depot? So here in the Depot Activity Monitoring page, we now have four tabs that allow you to answer those questions. And we'll go a little more in detail through each of them, but I'll just mention what they are for now. At a Glance shows you basic Depot configuration and also shows you query executing. Depot Efficiency, we'll talk more about that and other tabs. Depot Content, that shows you what tables are currently in your Depot. And Depot Pinning allows you to see what pinning policies have been created and to create new pinning policies. Now let's go through a scenario. Monitoring performance of workloads on one subcluster. As you know, Eon Mode database allows you to have multiple subclusters and we'll explore how this feature is useful and how we can use the Management Console to make decisions regarding whether you would like to have multiple subclusters. So here we have, in my setup, a single subcluster called default_subcluster. It has two users that are running queries that are accessing tables, mostly in schema public. So the query started executing and we can see that after fetching tables from Communal, which is the red line, the rest of the time the queries are executing in Depot. The green line is indicating queries running in Depot. The all nodes Depot is about 88% full, a steady flow, and the depot size seems to be sufficient for query executions from Depot only. That's the good case scenario. Now at around 17 :15, user Sherry got an urgent request to generate a report. And at, she started running her queries. We can see that picture is quite different now. The tables Sherry is querying are in a different schema and are much larger. Now we can see multiple lines in different colors. We can see a bunch of fetches and evictions which are indicated by blue and purple bars, and a lot of queries are now spilling into Communal. This is the red and orange lines. Orange line is an indicator of a query running partially in Depot and partially getting fetched from Communal. And the red line is data fetched from Communal storage. Let's click on the, one of the lines. Each data point, each point on the line, it'll take you to the Query Details page where you can see more about what's going on. So this is the page that shows us what queries have been run in this particular time interval which is on top of this page in orange color. So that's about one minute time interval and now we can see user Sherry among the users that are running queries. Sherry's queries involve large tables and are running against a different schema. We can see the clickstream schema in the name of the, in part of the query request. So what is happening, there is not enough Depot space for both the schema that's already in use and the one Sherry needs. As a result, evictions and fetches have started occurring. What other questions we can ask ourself to help us understand what's going on? So how about, what tables are most frequently re-fetched? So for that, we will go to the Depot Efficiency page and look at the middle, the middle chart here. We can see the larger version of this chart if we expand it. So now we have 10 tables listed that are most frequently being re-fetched. We can see that there is a clickstream schema and there are other schemas so all of those tables are being used in the queries, fetched, and then there is not enough space in the Depot, they getting evicted and they get re-fetched again. So what can be done to enable all queries to run in Depot? Option one can be increase the Depot size. So we can do this by running the following queries, which (mumbles) which nodes and storage location and the new Depot size. And I should mention that we can run this query from the Management Console from the query execution page. So this would have helped us to increase the Depot size. What other options do we have, for example, when increasing Depot size is not an option? We can also provision a second subcluster to isolate workloads like Sherry's. So we are going to do this now and we will provision a second subcluster using the Manage page. Here we're creating subcluster for Sherry or for workloads like hers. And we're going to create a (mumbles). So Sherry's subcluster has been created. We can see it here, added to the list of the subclusters. It's a secondary subcluster. Sherry has been instructed to use the new SherrySubcluster for her work. Now let's see what happened. We'll go again at Depot Activity page and we'll look at the At a Glance tab. We can see that around >> 18: 07, Sherry switched to running her queries on SherrySubcluster. On top of this page, you can see subcluster selected. So we currently have two subclusters and I'm looking, what happened to SherrySubcluster once it has been provisioned? So Sherry started using it and the lines after initial fetching from Depot, which was from Communal, which was the red line, after that, all Sherry's queries fit in Depot, which is indicated by green line. Also the Depot is pretty full on those nodes, about 90% full. But the queries are processed efficiently, there is no spilling into Communal. So that's a good case scenario. Let's now go back and take a look at the original subcluster, default subcluster. So on the left portion of the chart we can see multiple lines, that was activity before Sherry switched to her own designated subcluster. At around 18:07, after Sherry switched from the subcluster to using her designated subcluster, there is no, she is no longer using the subcluster, she is not putting a load in it. So the lines after that are turning a green color, which means the queries that are still running in default subcluster are all running in Depot. We can also see that Depot fetches and evictions bars, those purple and blue bars, are no longer showing significant numbers. Also we can check the second chart that shows Communal Storage Access. And we can see that the bars have also dropped, so there is no significant access for Communal Storage. So this problem has been solved. Each of the subclusters are serving queries from Depot and that's our most efficient scenario. Let's also look at the other tabs that we have for Depot monitoring. Let's look at Depot Efficiency tab. It has six charts and I'll go through each one of them quickly. Files Reads by Location gives an indicator of where the majority of query execution took place in Depot or in Communal. Top 10 Re-Fetches into Depot, and imagine the charts earlier in our user case, it shows tables that are most frequently fetched and evicted and then fetched again. These are good candidates to get pinned if increasing Depot size is not an option. Note that both of these charts have an option to select time interval using calendar widget. So you can get the information about the activity that happened during that time interval. Depot Pinning shows what portion of your Depot is pinned, both by byte count and by table count. And the three tables at the bottom show Depot structure. How long tables stay in Depot, we would like tables to be fetched in Depot and stay there for a long time, how often they are accessed, again, the tables in Depot, we would like to see them accessed frequently, and what the size range of tables in Depot. Depot Content. This tab allows us to search for tables that are currently in Depot and also to see stats like table size in Depot. How often tables are accessed and when were they last accessed. And the same information that's available for tables in Depot is also available on projections and partition levels for those tables. Depot Pinning. This tab allows users to see what policies are currently existing and so you can do this by clicking on the first little button and click search. This'll show you all existing policies that are already created. The second option allows you to search for a table and create a policy. You can also use the action column to modify existing policies or delete them. And the third option provides details about most frequently re-fetched tables, including fetch count, total access count, and number of re-fetched bytes. So all this information can help to make decisions regarding pinning specific tables. So that's about it about the Depot. And I should mention that the server team also has a very good presentation on the, webinar, on the Eon Mode database Depot management and subcluster management. that strongly recommend it to attend or download the slide presentation. Let's talk quickly about the Management Console Roadmap, what we are planning to do in the future. So we are going to continue focusing on subcluster management, there is still a lot of things we can do here. Promoting/demoting subclusters. Load balancing across subclusters, scheduling subcluster actions, support for large cluster mode. We'll continue working on Workload Analyzer enhancement recommendation, on backup and restore from the MC. Building custom thresholds, and Eon on HDFS support. Okay, so we are ready now to take any questions you may have now. Thank you.

hi everybody thank you for joining us today for the virtual Vertica BBC 2020 today's breakout session is entitled Vertica and en mode at the trade desk my name is su LeClair director of marketing at Vertica and I'll be your host for this webinar joining me is Ron Cormier senior Vertica database engineer at the trade desk before we begin I encourage you to submit questions or comments during the virtual session you don't have to wait just type your question or comment in the question box below the slides and click submit there will be a Q&A session at the end of the presentation we'll answer as many questions as we're able to during that time any questions that we don't address we'll do our best to answer them offline alternatively you can visit vertical forums to post your questions there after the session our engineering team is planning to join the forums to keep the conversation going also a quick reminder that you can maximize your screen by clicking the double arrow button in the lower right corner of the slide and yes this virtual session is being recorded and will be available to view on demand this week we'll send you a notification as soon as it's ready so let's get started over to you run thanks - before I get started I'll just mention that my slide template was created before social distancing was a thing so hopefully some of the images will harken us back to a time when we could actually all be in the same room but with that I want to get started uh the date before I get started in thinking about the technology I just wanted to cover my background real quick because I think it's peach to where we're coming from with vertically on at the trade desk and I'll start out just by pointing out that prior to my time in the trade desk I was a tech consultant at HP HP America and so I traveled the world working with Vertica customers helping them configure install tune set up their verdict and databases and get them working properly so I've seen the biggest and the smallest implementations and everything in between and and so now I'm actually principal database engineer straight desk and and the reason I mentioned this is to let you know that I'm a practitioner I'm working with with the product every day or most days this is a marketing material so hopefully the the technical details in this presentation are are helpful I work with Vertica of course and that is most relative or relevant to our ETL and reporting stack and so what we're doing is we're taking about the data in the Vertica and running reports for our customers and we're an ad tech so I did want to just briefly describe what what that means and how it affects our implementation so I'm not going to cover the all the details of this slide but basically I want to point out that the trade desk is a DSP it's a demand-side provider and so we place ads on behalf of our customers or agencies and ad agencies and their customers that are advertised as brands themselves and the ads get placed on to websites and mobile applications and anywhere anywhere digital advertising happens so publishers are what we think ocean like we see here espn.com msn.com and so on and so every time a user goes to one of these sites or one of these digital places and an auction takes place and what people are bidding on is the privilege of showing and add one or more ads to users and so this is this is really important because it helps fund the internet ads can be annoying sometimes but they actually help help are incredibly helpful in how we get much much of our content and this is happening in real time at very high volumes so on the open Internet there is anywhere from seven to thirteen million auctions happening every second of those seven to thirteen million auctions happening every second the trade desk bids on hundreds of thousands per second um so that gives it and anytime we did we have an event that ends up in Vertica that's that's one of the main drivers of our data volume and certainly other events make their way into Vertica as well but that wanted to give you a sense of the scale of the data and sort of how it's impacting or how it is impacted by sort of real real people in the world so um the uh let's let's take a little bit more into the workload and and we have the three B's in spades late like many many people listening to a massive volume velocity and variety in terms of the data sizes I've got some information here some stats on on the raw data sizes that we deal with on a daily basis per day so we ingest 85 terabytes of raw data per day and then once we get it into Vertica we do some transformations we do matching which is like joins basically and we do some aggregation group buys to reduce the data and make it clean it up make it so it's more efficient to consume buy our reporting layer so that matching in aggregation produces about ten new terabytes of raw data per day it all comes from the it all comes from the data that was ingested but it's new data and so that's so it is reduced quite a bit but it's still pretty pretty high high volume and so we have this aggregated data that we then run reports on on behalf of our customers so we have about 40,000 reports per day oh that's probably that's actually a little bit old and older number it's probably closer to 50 or 55,000 reports per day at this point so it's I think probably a pretty common use case for for Vertica customers it's maybe a little different in the sense that most of the reports themselves are >> reports so they're not it's not a user sitting at a keyboard waiting for the result basically we have we we have a workflow where we do the ingest we do this transform and then and then once once all the data is available for a day we run reports on behalf of our customer to let me have our customers on that that daily data and then we send the reports out you via email or we drop them in a shared location and then they they look at the reports at some later point of time so it's up until yawn we did all this work on on enterprise Vertica at our peak we had four production enterprise clusters each which held two petabytes of raw data and I'll give you some details on on how those enterprise clusters were configured in the hardware but before I do that I want to talk about the reporting workload specifically so the the reporting workload is particularly lumpy and what I mean by that is there's a bunch of work that becomes available bunch of queries that we need to run in a short period of time after after the days just an aggregation is completed and then the clusters are relatively quiet for the remaining portion of the day that's not to say they are they're not doing anything as far as read workload but they certainly are but it's much less reactivity after that big spike so what I'm showing here is our reporting queue and the spike is is when all those reports become a bit sort of ailable to be processed we can't we can't process we can't run the report until we've done the full ingest and matching and aggregation for the day and so right around 1:00 or 2:00 a.m. UTC time every day that's when we get this spike and the spike we affectionately called the UTC hump but basically it's a huge number of queries that need to be processed sort of as soon as possible and we have service levels that dictate what as soon as possible means but I think the spike illustrates our use case pretty pretty accurately and um it really as we'll see it's really well suited for pervert icky on and we'll see what that means so we've got our we had our enterprise clusters that I mentioned earlier and just to give you some details on what they look like there they were independent and mirrored and so what that means is all four clusters held the same data and we did this intentionally because we wanted to be able to run our report anywhere we so so we've got this big queue over port is big a number of reports that need to be run and we've got these we started we started with one cluster and then we got we found that it couldn't keep up so we added a second and we found the number of reports went up that we needed to run that short period of time and and so on so we eventually ended up with four Enterprise clusters basically with this with the and we'd say they were mirrored they all had the same data they weren't however synchronized they were independent and so basically we would run the the tailpipe line so to speak we would run ingest and the matching and the aggregation on all the clusters in parallel so they it wasn't as if each cluster proceeded to the next step in sync with which dump the other clusters they were run independently so it was sort of like each each cluster would eventually get get consistent and so this this worked pretty well for for us but it created some imbalances and there was some cost concerns that will dig into but just to tell you about each of these each of these clusters they each had 50 nodes they had 72 logical CPU cores a half half a terabyte of RAM a bunch of raid rated disk drives and 2 petabytes of raw data as I stated before so pretty big beefy nodes that are physical physical nodes that we held we had in our data centers we actually reached these nodes so so it was on our data center providers data centers and the these were these these were what we built our business on basically but there was a number of challenges that we ran into as we as we continue to build our business and add data and add workload and and the first one is is some in ceremony can relate to his capacity planning so we had to prove think about the future and try to predict the amount of work that was going to need to be done and how much hardware we were going to need to satisfy that work to meet that demand and that's that's just generally a hard thing to do it's very difficult to verdict the future as we can probably all attest to and how much the world has changed and even in the last month so it's a it's a very difficult thing to do to look six twelve eighteen eighteen months into the future and sort of get it right and and and what people what we tended to do is we reach or we tried to our art plans our estimates were very conservative so we overbought in a lot of cases and not only that we had to plan for the peak so we're planning for that that that point in time that those number of hours in the early morning when we had to we had all those reports to run and so that so so we ended up buying a lot of hardware and we actually sort of overbought at times and then and then as the hardware were days it would kind of come into it would come into maturity and we have our our our workload would sort of come approach matching the demand so that was one of the big challenges the next challenge is that we were running on disk you can we wanted to add data in sort of two dimensions the only dimensions that everybody can think about we wanted to add more columns to our big aggregates and we wanted to keep our big aggregates for for longer periods of time so both horizontally and vertically we wanted to expand the datasets but we basically were running out of disk there was no more disk in and it's hard to add a disc to Vertica in enterprise mode not not impossible but certainly hard and and one cannot add discs without adding compute because enterprise mode the disk is all local to each of the nodes for most most people you can do not exchange with sands and other external rays but that's there are a number of other challenges with that so um adding in order to add disk we had to add compute and that basically meant kept us out of balance we're adding more compute than we needed for the amount of disk so that was the problem certainly physical nodes getting them the order delivered racked cables even before we even start such Vertica there's lead times there and and so it's also long commitment since we like I mentioned me Lisa hardware so we were committing to these nodes these physical servers for two or three years at a time and I mentioned that can be a hard thing to do but we wanted to least to keep our capex down so we wanted to keep our aggregates for a long period of time we could have done crazy things or more exotic things to to help us with this if we had to in enterprise mode we could have started to like daisy chain clusters together and that would have been sort of a non-trivial engineering effort because we would need to then figure out how to migrate data source first to recharge the data across all the clusters and we had to migrate data from one cluster to another cluster hesitation and we would have to think about how to aggregate run queries across clusters so if you assured data set spans two clusters it would have had to sort of aggregated within each cluster maybe and then build something on top the aggregated the data from each of those clusters so not impossible things but certainly not easy things and luckily for us we started talking about two Vertica about separation of compute and storage and I know other customers were talking to Vertica as we were people had had these problems and so Vertica inyeon mode came to the rescue and what I want to do is just talk about nyan mode really briefly for for those in the audience who aren't familiar but it's basically Vertigo's answered to the separation of computing storage it allows one to scale compute and or storage separately and and this there's a number of advantages to doing that whereas in the old enterprise days when you add a compute you added stores and vice-versa now we can now we can add one or the other or both according to how we want to and so really briefly how this works this slide this figure was taken directly from the verdict and documentation and so just just to talk really briefly about how it works the taking advantage of the cloud and so in this case Amazon Web Services the elasticity in the cloud and basically we've got you seen two instances so elastic cloud compute servers that access data that's in an s3 bucket and so three three ec2 nodes and in a bucket or the the blue objects in this diagram and the difference is a couple of a couple of big differences one the data no longer the persistent storage of the data the data where the data lives is no longer on each of the notes the persistent stores of the data is in s3 bucket and so what that does is it basically solves one of our first big problems which is we were running out of disk the s3 has for all intensive purposes infinite storage so we can keep much more data there and that mostly solved one of our big problems so the persistent data lives on s3 now what happens is when a query runs it runs on one of the three nodes that you see here and assuming we'll talk about depo in a second but what happens in a brand new cluster where it's just just spun up the hardware is the query will will run on those ec2 nodes but there will be no data so those nodes will reach out to s3 and run the query on remote storage so that so the query that the nodes are literally reaching out to the communal storage for the data and processing it entirely without using any data on on the nodes themselves and so that that that works pretty well it's not as fast as if the data was local to the nodes but um what Vertica did is they built a caching layer on on each of the node and that's what the depot represents so the depot is some amount of disk that is relatively local to the ec2 node and so when the query runs on remote stores on the on the s3 data it then queues up the data for download to the nodes and so the data will get will reside in the Depot so that the next query or the subsequent subsequent queries can run on local storage instead of remote stores and that speeds things up quite a bit so that that's that's what the role of the Depot is the depot is basically a caching layer and we'll talk about the details of how we can see your in our Depot the other thing that I want to point out is that since this is the cloud another problem that helps us solve is the concurrency problem so you can imagine that these three nodes are one sort of cluster and what we can do is we can spit up another three nodes and have it point to the same s3 communal storage bucket so now we've got six nodes pointing to the same data but we've you isolated each of the three nodes so that they act as if they are their own cluster and so vertical calls them sub-clusters so we've got two sub clusters each of which has three nodes and what this has essentially done it is it doubled the concurrency doubled the number of queries that can run at any given time because we've now got this new place which new this new chunk of compute which which can answer queries and so that has given us the ability to add concurrency much faster and I'll point out that for since it's cloud and and there are on-demand pricing models we can have significant savings because when a sub cluster is not needed we can stop it and we pay almost nothing for it so that's that's really really important really helpful especially for our workload which I pointed out before was so lumpy so those hours of the day when it's relatively quiet I can go and stop a bunch of sub clusters and and I will pay for them so that that yields nice cost savings let's be on in a nutshell obviously engineers and the documentation can use a lot more information and I'm happy to field questions later on as well but I want to talk about how how we implemented beyond at the trade desk and so I'll start on the left hand side at the top the the what we're representing here is some clusters so there's some cluster 0 r e t l sub cluster and it is a our primary sub cluster so when you get into the world of eon there's primary Club questions and secondary sub classes and it has to do with quorum so primary sub clusters are the sub clusters that we always expect to be up and running and they they contribute to quorum they decide whether there's enough instances number a number of enough nodes to have the database start up and so these this is where we run our ETL workload which is the ingest the match in the aggregate part of the work that I talked about earlier so these nodes are always up and running because our ETL pipeline is always on we're internet ad tech company like I mentioned and so we're constantly getting costly running ad and there's always data flowing into the system and the matching is happening in the aggregation so that part happens 24/7 and we wanted so that those nodes will always be up and running and we need this we need that those process needs to be super efficient and so what that is reflected in our instance type so each of our sub clusters is sixty four nodes we'll talk about how we came at that number but the infant type for the ETL sub cluster the primary subclusters is I 3x large so that is one of the instance types that has quite a bit of nvme stores attached and we'll talk about that but on 32 cores 240 four gigs of ram on each node and and that what that allows us to do I should have put the amount of nvme but I think it's seven terabytes for anything me storage what that allows us to do is to basically ensure that our ETL everything that this sub cluster does is always in Depot and so that that makes sure that it's always fast now when we get to the secondary subclusters these are as mentioned secondary so they can stop and start and it won't affect the cluster going up or down so they're they're sort of independent and we've got four what we call Rhian subclusters and and they're not read by definition or technically they're not read only any any sub cluster can ingest and create your data within the database and that'll all get that'll all get pushed to the s3 bucket but logically for us they're read only like these we just most of these the work that they happen to do is read only which it is which is nice because if it's read only it doesn't need to worry about commits and we let we let the primary subclusters or ETL so close to worry about committing data and we don't have to we don't have to have the all nodes in the database participating in transaction commits so we've got a for read subclusters and we've got one EP also cluster so a total of five sub clusters each so plus they're running sixty-four nodes so that gives us a 320 node database all things counted and not all those nodes are up at the same time as I mentioned but often often for big chunks of the days most of the read nodes are down but they do all spin up during our during our busy time so for the reading so clusters we've got I three for Excel so again the I three incidents family type which has nvme stores these notes have I think three and a half terabytes of nvme per node we just rate it to nvme drives we raid zero them together and 16 cores 122 gigs of ram so these are smaller you'll notice but it works out well for us because the the read workload is is typically dealing with much smaller data sets than then the ingest or the aggregation workbook so we can we can run these workloads on on smaller instances and leave a little bit of money and get more granularity with how many sub clusters are stopped and started at any given time the nvme doesn't persist the data on it isn't persisted remember you stop and start this is an important detail but it's okay because the depot does a pretty good job in that in that algorithm where it pulls data in that's recently used and the that gets pushed out a victim is the data that's least reasons use so it was used a long time ago so it's probably not going to be used to get so we've got um five sub-clusters and we have actually got to two of those so we've got a 320 node cluster in u.s. East and a 320 node cluster in u.s. West so we've got a high availability region diversity so and their peers like I talked about before they're they're independent but but yours they are each run 128 shards and and so with that what that which shards are is basically the it's similar to segmentation when you take those dataset you divide it into chunks and though and each sub cluster can concede want the data set in its entirety and so each sub cluster is dealing with 128 shards it shows 128 because it'll give us even distribution of the data on 64 node subclusters 60 120 might evenly by 64 and so there's so there's no data skew and and we chose 128 because the sort of ginger proof in case we wanted to double the size of any of the questions we can double the number of notes and we still have no excuse the data would be distributed evenly the disk what we've done is so we've got a couple of raid arrays we've got an EBS based array that they're catalog uses so the catalog storage location and I think we take for for EBS volumes and raid 0 them together and come up with 128 gigabyte Drive and we wanted an EPS for the catalog because it we can stop and start nodes and that data will persist it will come back when the node comes up so we don't have to run a bunch of configuration when the node starts up basically the node starts it automatically joins the cluster and and very strongly there after it starts processing work let's catalog and EBS now the nvme is another raid zero as I mess with this data and is ephemeral so let me stop and start it goes away but basically we take 512 gigabytes of the nvme and we give it to the data temp storage location and then we take whatever is remaining and give it to the depot and since the ETL and the reading clusters are different instance types they the depot is is side differently but otherwise it's the same across small clusters also it all adds up what what we have is now we we stopped the purging data for some of our big a grits we added bunch more columns and what basically we at this point we have 8 petabytes of raw data in each Jian cluster and it is obviously about 4 times what we can hold in our enterprise classes and we can continue to add to this maybe we need to add compute maybe we don't but the the amount of data that can can be held there against can obviously grow much more we've also built in auto scaling tool or service that basically monitors the queue that I showed you earlier monitors for those spikes I want to see as low spikes it then goes and starts up instances one sub-collector any of the sub clusters so that's that's how that's how we we have compute match the capacity match that's the demand also point out that we actually have one sub cluster is a specialized nodes it doesn't actually it's not strictly a customer reports sub clusters so we had this this tool called planner which basically optimizes ad campaigns for for our customers and we built it it runs on Vertica uses data and Vertica runs vertical queries and it was it was wildly successful um so we wanted to have some dedicated compute and beyond witty on it made it really easy to basically spin up one of these sub clusters or new sub cluster and say here you go planner team do what you want you can you can completely maximize the resources on these nodes and it won't affect any of the other operations that were doing the ingest the matching the aggregation or the reports up so it gave us a great deal of flexibility and agility which is super helpful so the question is has it been worth it and without a doubt the answer is yes we're doing things that we never could have done before sort of with reasonable cost we have lots more data specialized nodes and more agility but how do you quantify that because I don't want to try to quantify it for you guys but it's difficult because each eon we still have some enterprise nodes by the way cost as you have two of them but we also have these Eon clusters and so they're there they're running different workloads the aggregation is different the ingest is running more on eon does the number of nodes is different the hardware is different so there are significant differences between enterprise and and beyond and when we combine them together to do the entire workload but eon is definitely doing the majority of the workload it has most of the data it has data that goes is much older so it handles the the heavy heavy lifting now the query performance is more anecdotal still but basically when the data is in the Depot the query performance is very similar to enterprise quite close when the data is not in Depot and it needs to run our remote storage the the query performance is is is not as good it can be multiples it's not an order not orders of magnitude worse but certainly multiple the amount of time that it takes to run on enterprise but the good news is after the data downloads those young clusters quickly catch up as the cache populates there of cost I'd love to be able to tell you that we're running to X the number of reports or things are finishing 8x faster but it's not that simple as you Iran is that you it is me I seem to have gotten to thank you you hear me okay I can hear you now yeah we're still recording but that's fine we can edit this so if I'm just talking to the person the support person he will extend our recording time so if you want to maybe pick back up from the beginning of the slide and then we'll just edit out this this quiet period that we have sir okay great I'm going to go back on mute and why don't you just go back to the previous slide and then come into this one again and I'll make sure that I tell the person who yep perfect and then we'll continue from there is that okay yeah sound good all right all right I'm going back on yet so the question is has it been worth it and for us the answer has been a resounding yes we're doing things that we never could have done at reasonable cost before and we got more data we've got this Y note this law has nodes and in work we're much more agile so how to quantify that um well it's not quite as simple and straightforward as you might hope I mean we still have enterprise clusters we've got to update the the four that we had at peak so we've still got two of those around and we got our two yawn clusters but they're running different workloads and they're comprised of entirely different hardware the dependence has I've covered the number of nodes is different for sub-clusters so 64 versus 50 is going to have different performance the the workload itself the aggregation is aggregating more columns on yon because that's where we have disk available the queries themselves are different they're running more more queries on more intensive data intensive queries on yon because that's where the data is available so in a sense it is Jian is doing the heavy lifting for the cluster for our workload in terms of query performance still a little anecdotal but like when the queries that run on the enterprise cluster the performance matches that of the enterprise cluster quite closely when the data is in the Depot when the data is not in a Depot and Vertica has to go out to the f32 to get the data performance degrades as you might expect it can but it depends on the curious all things like counts counts are is really fast but if you need lots of the data from the material others to realize lots of columns that can run slower I'm not orders of magnitude slower but certainly multiple of the amount of time in terms of costs anecdotal will give a little bit more quantifying here so what I try to do is I try to figure out multiply it out if I wanted to run the entire workload on enterprise and I wanted to run the entire workload on e on with all the data we have today all the queries everything and to try to get it to the Apple tab so for enterprise the the and estimate that we do need approximately 18,000 cores CPU cores all together and that's a big number but that's doesn't even cover all the non-trivial engineering work that would need to be required that I kind of referenced earlier things like starting the data among multiple clusters migrating the data from one culture to another the daisy chain type stuff so that's that's the data point now for eon is to run the entire workload estimate we need about twenty thousand four hundred and eighty CPU cores so more CPU cores uh then then enterprise however about half of those and partly ten thousand of both CPU cores would only run for about six hours per day and so with the on demand and elasticity of the cloud that that is a huge advantage and so we are definitely moving as fast as we can to being on all Aeon we have we have time left on our contract with the enterprise clusters or not we're not able to get rid of them quite yet but Eon is certainly the way of the future for us I also want to point out that uh I mean yawn is we found to be the most efficient MPP database on the market and what that refers to is for a given dollar of spend of cost we get the most from that zone we get the most out of Vertica for that dollar compared to other cloud and MPP database platforms so our business is really happy with what we've been able to deliver with Yan Yan has also given us the ability to begin a new use case which is probably this case is probably pretty familiar to folks on the call where it's UI based so we'll have a website that our customers can log into and on that website they'll be able to run reports on queries through the website and have that run directly on a separate row to get beyond cluster and so much more latent latency sensitive and concurrency sensitive so the workflow that I've described up until this point has been pretty steady throughout the day and then we get our spike and then and then it goes back to normal for the rest of the day this workload it will be potentially more variable we don't know exactly when our engineers are going to deliver some huge feature that is going to make a 1-1 make a lot of people want to log into the website and check how their campaigns are doing so we but Yohn really helps us with this because we can add a capacity so easily we cannot compute and we can add so we can scale that up and down as needed and it allows us to match the concurrency so beyond the concurrency is much more variable we don't need a big long lead time so we're really excited about about this so last slide here I just want to leave you with some things to think about if you're about to embark or getting started on your journey with vertically on one of the things that you'll have to think about is the no account in the shard count so they're kind of tightly coupled the node count we determined by figuring like spinning up some instances in a single sub cluster and getting performance smaller to finding an acceptable performance considering current workload future workload for the queries that we had when we started and so we went with 64 we wanted to you want to certainly want to increase over 50 but we didn't want to have them be too big because of course it costs money and so what you like to do things in power to so 64 nodes and then the shard count for the shards again is like the data segmentation is a new type of segmentation on the data and the start out we went with 128 it began the reason is so that we could have no skew but you know could process the same same amount of data and we wanted to future-proof it so that's probably it's probably a nice general recommendation doubleness account for the nodes the instance type and and how much people space those are certainly things you're going to consider like I was talking about we went for they I three for Excel I 3/8 Excel because they offer good good Depot stores which gives us a really consistent good performance and it is all in Depot the pretty good mud presentation and some information on on I think we're going to use our r5 or the are for instance types for for our UI cluster so much less the data smaller so much less enter this on Depot so we don't need on that nvm you stores the reader we're going to want to have a reserved a mix of reserved and on-demand instances if you're if you're 24/7 shop like we are like so our ETL subclusters those are reserved instances because we know we're going to run those 24 hours a day 365 days a year so there's no advantage of having them be on-demand on demand cost more than reserve so we get cost savings on on figuring out what we're going to run and have keep running and it's the read subclusters that are for the most part on on demand we have one of our each sub Buster's is actually on 24/7 because we keep it up for ad-hoc queries your analyst queries that we don't know when exactly they're going to hit and they want to be able to continue working whenever they want to in terms of the initial data load the initial data ingest what we had to do and now how it works till today is you've got to basically load all your data from scratch there isn't a great tooling just yet for data populate or moving from enterprise to Aeon so what we did is we exported all the data in our enterprise cluster into park' files and put those out on s3 and then we ingested them into into our first Eon cluster so it's kind of a pain we script it out a bunch of stuff obviously but they worked and the good news is that once you do that like the second yon cluster is just a bucket copy in it and so there's tools missions that can help help with that you're going to want to manage your fetches and addiction so this is the data that's in the cache is what I'm referring to here the data that's in the default and so like I talked about we have our ETL cluster which has the most recent data that's just an injected and the most difficult data that's been aggregated so this really recent data so we wouldn't want anybody logging into that ETL cluster and running queries on big aggregates to go back one three years because that would invalidate the cache the depot would start pulling in that historical data and it was our assessing that historical data and evicting the recent data which would slow things out flow down that ETL pipelines so we didn't want that so we need to make sure that users whether their service accounts or human users are connecting to the right phone cluster and I mean we just created the adventure users with IPS and target groups to palm those pretty-pretty it was definitely something to think about lastly if you're like us and you're going to want to stop and start nodes you're going to have to have a service that does that for you we're where we built this very simple tool that basically monitors the queue and stops and starts subclusters accordingly we're hoping that that we can work with Vertica to have it be a little bit more driven by the cloud configuration itself so for us all amazon and we love it if we could have it have a scale with the with the with the eight of us can take through points do things to watch out for when when you're working with Eon is the first is system table queries on storage layer or metadata and the thing to be careful of is that the storage layer metadata is replicated it's caught as a copy for each of the sub clusters that are out there so we have the ETL sub cluster and our resources so for each of the five sub clusters there is a copy of all the data in storage containers system table all the data and partitions system table so when you want to use this new system tables for analyzing how much data you have or any other analysis make sure that you filter your query with a node name and so for us the node name is less than or equal to 64 because each of our sub clusters at 64 so we limit we limit the nodes to the to the 64 et 64 node ETL collector otherwise if we didn't have this filter we would get 5x the values for counts and some sort of stuff and lastly there is a problem that we're kind of working on and thinking about is a DC table data for sub clusters that are our stops when when the instances stopped literally the operating system is down and there's no way to access it so it takes the DC table DC table data with it and so I cannot after after my so close to scale up in the morning and then they scale down I can't run DC table queries on how what performed well and where and that sort of stuff because it's local to those nodes so we're working on something so something to be aware of and we're working on a solution or an implementation to try to suck that data out of all the notes you can those read only knows that stop and start all the time and bring it in to some other kind of repository perhaps another vertical cluster so that we can run analysis and monitoring even you want those those are down that's it um thanks for taking the time to look into my presentation really do it thank you Ron that was a tremendous amount of information thank you for sharing that with everyone um we have some questions come in that I would like to present to you Ron if you have a couple min it your first let's jump right in the first one a loading 85 terabytes per day of data is pretty significant amount what format does that data come in and what does that load process look like yeah a great question so the format is a tab separated files that are Jesus compressed and the reason for that could basically historical we don't have much tabs in our data and this is how how the data gets compressed and moved off of our our bidders the things that generate most of this data so it's a PSD gzip compressed and how you kind of we kind of have how we load it I would say we have actually kind of a Cadillac loader in a couple of different perspectives one is um we've got this autist raishin layer that's homegrown managing the logs is the data that gets loaded into Vertica and so we accumulate data and then we take we take some some files and we push them to redistribute them along the ETL nodes in the cluster and so we're literally pushing the file to through the nodes and we then run a copy statement to to ingest data in the database and then we remove the file from from the nodes themselves and so it's a little bit extra data movement which you may think about changing in the future assisting we move more and more to be on well the really nice thing about this especially for for the enterprise clusters is that the copy' statements are really fast and so we the coffee statements use memory but let's pick any other query but the performance of the cautery statement is really sensitive to the amount of available memory and so since the data is local to the nodes literally in the data directory that I referenced earlier it can access that data from the nvme stores and the kabhi statement runs very fast and then that memory is available to do something else and so we pay a little bit of cost in terms of latency and in terms of downloading the data to the nose we might as we move more and more PC on we might start ingesting it directly from s3 not copying the nodes first we'll see about that what's there that's how that's how we read the data interesting works great thanks Ron um another question what was the biggest challenge you found when migrating from on-prem to AWS uh yeah so um a couple of things that come to mind the first was the baculum the data load it was kind of a pain I mean like I referenced in that last slide only because I mean we didn't have tools built to do this so I mean we had to script some stuff out and it wasn't overly complex but yes it's just a lot of data to move I mean even with starting with with two petabytes so making sure that there there is no missed data no gaps making and moving it from the enterprise cluster so what we did is we exported it to the local disk on the enterprise buses and we then we push this history and then we ingested it in ze on again Allspark X oh so it's a lot of days to move around and I mean we have to you have to take an outage at some point stop loading data while we do that final kiss-up phase and so that was that was a challenge a sort of a one-time challenge the other saying that I mean we've been dealing with a week not that we're dealing with but with his challenge was is I mean it's relatively you can still throw totally new product for vertical and so we are big advantages of beyond is allow us to stop and start nodes and recently Vertica has gotten quite good at stopping in part starting nodes for a while there it was it was it took a really long time to start to Noah back up and it could be invasive but we worked with with the engineering team with Yan Zi and others to really really reduce that and now it's not really an issue that we think that we think too much about hey thanks towards the end of the presentation you had said that you've got 128 shards but you have your some clusters are usually around 64 nodes and you had talked about a ratio of two to one why is that and if you were to do it again would you use 128 shards ah good question so that is a reference the reason why is because we wanted to future professionals so basically we wanted to make sure that the number of stars was evenly divisible by the number of nodes and you could I could have done that was 64 I could have done that with 128 or any other multiple entities for but we went with 128 is to try to protect ourselves in the future so that if we wanted to double the number of nodes in the ECL phone cluster specifically we could have done that so that was double from 64 to 128 and then each node would have happened just one chart that it had would have to deal with so so no skew um the second part of question if I had to do it if I had to do it over again I think I would have done I think I would have stuck with 128 we still have I mean so we either running this cluster for more than 18 months now I think especially in USC and we haven't needed to increase the number of nodes so in that sense like it's been a little bit extra overhead having more shards but it gives us the peace of mind that we can easily double that and not have to worry about it so I think I think everyone is a nice place to start and you may even consider a three to one or four to one if if you're if you're expecting really rapid growth that you were just getting started with you on and your business and your gates that's a small now but what you expect to have them grow up significantly less powerful green thank you Ron that's with all the questions that we have out there for today if you do have others please feel free to send them in and we will get back to you and we'll respond directly via email and again our engineers will be available on the vertical forums where you can continue the discussion with them there I want to thank Ron for the great presentation and also the audience for your participation in questions please note that a replay of today's event and a copy of the slides will be available on demand shortly and of course we invite you to share this information with your colleagues as well again thank you and this concludes this webinar and have a great day you

>>live from Stanford University. It's the queue covering Stanford women in Data Science 2020. Brought to you by Silicon Angle Media >>and welcome to the Cube. I'm your host Sonia category, and we're live at Stanford University, covering the fifth annual Woods Women in Data Science conference. Joining us today is Tilapia Williams, who's the associate professor of mathematics at Harvey Mudd College and host of Nova Wonders at PBS to leave a welcome to the Cappy to be here. Thanks for having me. So you have a lot of rules. So let's first tell us about being an associate professor at Harvey Mudd. >>Yeah, I've been at Harvey Mudd now for 11 years, so it's been really a lot of fun in the math department, but I'm a statistician by training, so I teach a lot of courses and statistics and data science and things like that. >>Very cool. And you're also a host of API s show called Novo Wonders. >>Yeah, that came about a couple of years ago. Folks at PBS reached out they had seen my Ted talk, and they said, Hey, it looks like you could be fund host of this science documentary shows So, Nova Wonders, is a six episode Siri's. It kind of takes viewers on a journey of what the cutting edge questions and science are. Um, so I got to host the show with a couple other co host and really think about like, you know, what are what are the animals saying? And so we've got some really fun episodes to do. What's the universe made of? Was one of them what's living inside of us. That was definitely a gross win. Todo figure out all the different micro organisms that live inside our body. So, yeah, it's been funded in hopes that show as well. >>And you talk about data science and AI and all that stuff on >>Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, one of the episodes. Can we build a Brain was dealt with a lot of data, big data and artificial intelligence, and you know, how good can we get? How good can computers get and really sort of compared to what we see in the movies? We're a long way away from that, but it seems like you know we're getting better every year, building technology that is truly intelligent, >>and you gave a talk today about mining for your own personal data. So give us some highlights from your talk. Yeah, >>so that talks sort of stemmed out of the Ted talk that I gave on owning your body's data. And it's really challenging people to think about how they can use data that they collect about their bodies to help make better health decisions on DSO ways that you can use, like your temperature data or your heart rate. Dina. Or what is data say over time? What does it say about your body's health and really challenging the audience to get excited about looking at that data? We have so many devices that collect data automatically for us, and often we don't pause on enough to actually look at that historical data. And so that was what the talk was about today, like, here's what you can find when you actually sit down and look at that data. >>What's the most important data you think people should be collecting about themselves? >>Well, definitely not. Your weight is. I don't >>want to know what that >>is. Um, it depends, you know, I think for women who are in the fertile years of life taking your daily waking temperature can tell you when your body's fertile. When you're ovulating, it can. So that information could give women during that time period really critical information. But in general, I think it's just a matter of being aware of of how your body is changing. So for some people, maybe it's your blood pressure or your blood sugar. You have high blood pressure or high blood sugar. Those things become really critical to keep an eye on. And, um, and I really encourage people whatever data they take, too, the active in the understanding of an interpretation of the data. It's not like if you take this data, you'll be healthy radio. You live to 100. It's really a matter of challenging people to own the data that they have and get excited about understanding the data that they are taking. So >>absolutely put putting people in charge of their >>own bodies. That's >>right. >>And actually speaking about that in your Ted talk, you mentioned how you were. Your doctor told you to have a C section and you looked at the data and he said, No, I'm gonna have this baby naturally. So tell us more about that. >>Yes, you should always listen to your medical pressures. But in this case, I will say that it was It was definitely more of a dialogue. And so I wasn't just sort of trying to lean on the fact that, like, I have a PhD in statistics and I know data, he was really kind of objectively with the on call doctor at the time, looking at the data >>and talking about it. >>And this doctor was this is his first time seeing me. And so I think it would have been different had my personal midwife or my doctor been telling me that. But this person would have only looked at this one chart and was it was making a decision without thinking about my historical data. And so I tried to bring that to the conversation and say, like, let me tell you more about you know, my body and this is pregnancy number three like, here's how my body works. And I think this person in particular just wasn't really hearing any of that. It was like, Here's my advice. We just need to do this. I'm like, >>Oh, >>you know, and so is gently as possible. I tried to really share that data. Um, and then it got to the point where it was sort of like either you're gonna do what I say or you're gonna have to sign a waiver. And we were like, Well, to sign the waiver that cost quite a buzz in the hospital that day. But we came back and had a very successful labor and delivery. And so, yeah, >>I think >>that at the time, >>But, >>you know, with that caveat that you should listen to what, your doctors >>Yeah. I mean, there's really interesting, like, what's the boundary between, Like what the numbers tell you and what professional >>tells me Because I don't have an MD. Right. And so, you know, I'm cautious not to overstep that, but I felt like in that case, the doctor wasn't really even considering the data that I was bringing. Um, I was we were actually induced with our first son, but again, that was more of a conversation, more of a dialogue. Here's what's happening here is what we're concerned about and the data to really back it up. And so I felt like in that case, like Yeah, I'm happy to go with your suggestion, but I could number three. It was just like, No, this isn't really >>great. Um, so you also wrote a book called Power In Numbers. The Rebel Women of Mathematics. So what inspired you to write this book? And what do you hope readers take away from it? >>A couple different things. I remember when I saw the movie hidden figures. And, um, I spent three summers at NASA working at JPL, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. And so I had this very fun connection toe, you know, having worked at NASA. And, um, when this movie came out and I'm sitting there watching it and I'm, like ball in just crying, like I didn't know that there were black women who worked at NASA like, before me, you know, um and so it felt it felt it was just so transformative for me to see these stories just sort of unfold. And I thought, like, Well, why didn't I learn about these women growing up? Like imagine, Had I known about Katherine Johnsons of the world? Maybe that would have really inspired Not just me, but, you know, thinking of all the women of color who aren't in mathematics or who don't see themselves working at at NASA. And so for me, the book was really a way to leave that legacy to the generation that's coming up and say, like, there have been women who've done mathematics, um, and statistics and data science for years, and they're women who are doing it now. So a lot of the about 1/3 of the book are women who were still here and, like, active in the field and doing great things. And so I really wanted to highlight sort of where we've been, where we've been, but also where we're going and the amazing women that are doing work in it. And it's very visual. So some things like, Oh my gosh, >>women in math >>It is really like a very picturesque book of showing this beautiful images of the women and their mathematics and their work. And yes, I'm really proud of it. >>That's awesome. And even though there is like greater diversity now in the tech industry, there's still very few African American women, especially who are part of this industry. So what advice would you give to those women who who feel like they don't belong. >>Yeah, well, a they really do belong. Um, and I think it's also incumbent of people in the industry to sort of recognize ways that they could be advocate for women, and especially for women of color, because often it takes someone who's already at the table to invite other people to the table. And I can't just walk up like move over, get out the way I'm here now. But really being thoughtful about who's not representative, how do we get those voices here? And so I think the onus is often mawr on. People who occupy those spaces are ready to think about how they can be more intentional in bringing diversity in other spaces >>and going back to your talk a little bit. Um uh, how how should people use their data? >>Yeah, so I mean, I think, um, the ways that we've used our data, um, have been to change our lifestyle practices. And so, for example, when I first got a Fitbit, um, it wasn't really that I was like, Oh, I have a goal. It was just like I want something to keep track of my steps And then I look at him and I feel like, Oh, gosh, I didn't even do anything today. And so I think having sort of even that baseline data gave me a place to say, Okay, let me see if I hit 10 stuff, you know, 10,000 >>steps in a day or >>and so, in some ways, having the data allows you to set goals. Some people come in knowing, like, I've got this goal. I want to hit it. But for me, it was just sort of like, um and so I think that's also how I've started to use additional data. So when I take my heart rate data or my pulse, I'm really trying to see if I can get lower than how it was before. So the push is really like, how is my exercise and my diet changing so that I can bring my resting heart rate down? And so having the data gives me a gold up, restore it, and it also gives me that historical information to see like, Oh, this is how far I've come. Like I can't stop there, you know, >>that's a great social impact. >>That's right. Yeah, absolutely. >>and, um, Do you think that so in terms of, like, a security and privacy point of view, like if you're recording all your personal data on these devices, how do you navigate that? >>Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, because you are giving up that data privacy. Um, I usually make sure that the data that I'm allowing access to this sort of data that I wouldn't care if it got published on the cover of you know, the New York Times. Maybe I wouldn't want everyone to see what my weight is, but, um, and so in some ways, while it is my personal data, there's something that's a bit abstract from it. Like it could be anyone's data as opposed to, say, my DNA. Like I'm not going to do a DNA test. You know, I don't want my data to be mapped it out there for the world. Um, but I think that that's increasingly become a concern because people are giving access to of their information to different companies. It's not clear how companies would use that information, so if they're using my data to build a product will make a product better. You know we don't see any world from that way. We don't have the benefit of it, but they have access to our data. And so I think in terms of data, privacy and data ethics, there's a huge conversation to have around that. We're only kind >>of at the beginning of understanding what that is. Yeah, >>well, thank you so much for being on the Cube. Really having you here. Thank you. Thanks. So I'm Sonia to Gary. Thanks so much for watching the cube and stay tuned for more. Yeah, yeah, yeah.