from the cube studios in Palo Alto in Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world this is a cube conversation as we've been reporting the Koba 19 pandemic has created a bifurcated IT spending picture and over the last several weeks we've reported both on the macro and even some come at it from from a vendor and a sector view I mean for example we've reported on some of the companies that have really continued to thrive we look at the NASDAQ and its you know near at all-time highs companies like oh and in CrowdStrike we've reported on snowflake uipath the sectors are PA some of the analytic databases around AI maybe even to a lesser extent cloud but still has a lot of tailwind relative to some of those on-prem infrastructure plays even companies like Cisco bifurcated in and of themselves where you see this Meraki side of the house you know doing quite well the work from home stuff but maybe some of the traditional networking not as much well now what if you flip that to really try to understand what's going on with the shape of the recovery which is the main narrative right now is it a v-shape does it a u-shape what is what's that what do people expect and now you understand that you really have to look at different industries because different industries are going to come back at a different pace with me again is Sagar khadiyah who's the director of research at EGR Sagar you guys are all over this as usual timely information it's great to see you again hope all is well in New York City thanks so much David it's a pleasure to be back on again yeah so where are we in the cycle we give dividend a great job and very timely ETR was the first to really put out data on the koban impact with the survey that ran from mid-march to to mid-april and now everybody's attention sagar is focused on okay we're starting to come back stores are starting to open people are beginning to to go out again and everybody wants to know what the shape of the recovery looks like so where are we actually in that research cycle for you guys yeah no problem so like you said you know in that kind of march/april timeframe we really want to go out there and get an idea of what we're doing the budget impacts you know as it relates to IT because of kovat 19 right so we kind of ended off there around a decline of 5% and coming into the year the consensus was of growth of 4 or 5% right so we saw about a 900,000 basis points wing you know to the negative side and the public covered in March and April were you know which sectors and vendors were going to benefit as a result of work from home and so now as we kind of fast forward to the research cycle as we kind of go more into May and into the summer rather than asking those exact same question to get again because it's just been you know maybe 40 or 50 days we really want Singh on the recovery type as well as kind of more emerging private vendors right we want to understand what's gonna be the impact on on these vendors that typically rely on you know larger conferences more in-person meetings because these are younger technologies there's not a lot of information about them and so last Thursday we launched our biannual emerging technology study it covers roughly 300 private emerging technologies across maybe 60 sectors of technology and in tandem we've launched a co-ed flash poll right what we wanted to do was kind of twofold one really understand from CIOs the recovery type they had in mind as well as if they were seeing any any kind of permanent changes in their IT stacks IT spend because of koban 19 and so if we kind of look at the first chart here and kind of get more into that first question around recovery type what we asked CIOs and this kind of COBIT flash poll again we did it last Thursday was what type of recovery are you expecting is it v-shaped so kind of a brief decline you know maybe one quarter and then you're gonna start seeing growth in 2 to H 20 is it you shaped so two to three quarters of a decline or deceleration revenue and you're kind of forecasting that growth in revenue as an organization to come back in 2021 is it l-shaped right so maybe three four five quarters of a decline or deceleration and then you know very minimal to moderate growth or none of the above you know your organization is actually benefiting from from from koban 19 as you know we've seen some many reports so those are kind of the options that we gave CIOs and you kind of see it on that first chart here interesting and this is a survey a flash service 700 CIOs or approximately and the interesting thing I really want to point out here is this you know the koban pandemic was it didn't suppress you know all companies you know and in the return it's not going to be a rising tide lifts all ships you really got to do your research you have to understand the different sectors really try to peel back the onion skin and understand why there's certain momentum how certain organizations are accommodating the work from home we heard you know several weeks ago how there's a major change in in networking mindsets we're talking about how security is changing we're going to talk about some of the permanence but it's really really important to try to understand these different trends by different industries which you're going to talk about in a minute but if you take a look at this slide I mean obviously most people expect this u-shaped decline I mean a you know a u-shaped recovery rather so it's two or three quarters followed by some growth next year but as we'll see some of these industries are gonna really go deeper with an l-shape recovery and then it's really interesting that a pretty large and substantial portion see this as a tailwind presumably those with you know strong SAS models some annual recurring revenue models your thoughts if we kind of star on this kind of aggregate chart you know you're looking at about forty four percent of CIOs anticipated u-shaped recovery right that's the largest bucket and then you can see another 15 percent and to say an l-shape recovery 14 on the v-shaped and then 16 percent to your point that are kind of seeing this this tailwind but if we kind of focus on that largest bucket that you shaped you know one of the thing to remember and again when we asked is two CIOs within the within this kind of coded flash poll we also asked can you give us some commentary and so one of the things that or one of the themes that are kind of coming along with this u-shaped recovery is you know CIOs are cautiously optimistic about this u-shaped recovery you know they believe that they can get back on to a growth cycle into 2021 as long as there's a vaccine available we don't go into a second wave of lockdowns economic activity picks up a lot of the government actions you know become effective so there are some kind of let's call it qualifiers with this bucket of CIOs that are anticipating a u-shape recovery what they're saying is that look we are expecting these things to happen we're not expecting that our lock down we are expecting a vaccine and if that takes place then we do expect an uptick in growth or going back to kind of pre coded levels in in 2021 but you know I think it's fair to assume that if one or more of these are apps and and things do get worse as all these states are opening up maybe the recovery cycle gets pushed along so kind of at the aggregate this is where we are right now yeah so as I was saying and you really have to understand the different not only different sectors and all the different vendors but you got to look into the industries and then even within industries so if we pull up the next chart we have the industry to the breakdown and sort of the responses by the industries v-shape you shape or shape I had a conversation with a CIO of a major resort just the other day and even he was saying what was actually I'll tell you it was Windham Resorts public company I mean and obviously that business got a good crush they had their earnings call the other day they talked about how they cut their capex in half but the stock sagar since the March lows is more than doubled yeah and you know that's amazing and now but even there within that sector they're peeling that on you're saying well certain parts are going to come back sooner or certain parts are going to longer depending on you know what type of resort what type of hotel so it really is a complicated situation so take us through what you're seeing by industry sure so let's start with kind of the IT telco retail consumer space Dave to your point there's gonna be a tremendous amount of bifurcation within both of those verticals look if we start on the IT telco side you know you're seeing a very large bucket of individuals right over twenty percent that indicated they're seeing a tail with our additional revenue because of covin 19 and you know Dave we spoke about this all the way back in March right all these work from home vendors you know CIOs were doubling down on cloud and SAS and we've seen how some of these events have reported in April you know with this very good reports all the major cloud vendors right select security vendors and so that's why you're seeing on the kind of telco side definitely more positivity right as it relates to recovery type right some of them are not even going through recovery they're they're seeing an acceleration same thing on the retail consumer side you're seeing another large bucket of people who are indicating what we've benefited and again there's going to be a lot of bifurcation here there's been a lot of retail consumers you just mentioned with the hotel lines that are definitely hurting but you know if you have a good online presence as a retailer and you know you had essential goods or groceries you benefited and and those are the organizations that we're seeing you know really indicate that they saw an acceleration due to Koga 19 so I thought those two those two verticals between kind of the IT and retail side there was a big bucket or you know of people who indicated positivity so I thought that was kind of the first kind of you know I was talking about kind of peeling this onion back you know that was really interesting you know tech continues to power on and I think you know a lot of people try I think that somebody was saying that the record of the time in which we've developed a fit of vaccine previously was like mumps or something and it was I mean it was just like years but now today 2020 we've got a I we've got all this data you've got these great companies all working on this and so you know wow if we can compress that that's going to change the equation a couple other things sagar that jump out at me here in this chart I want to ask you about I mean the education you know colleges are really you know kind of freaking out right now some are coming back I know like for instance my daughter University Arizona they're coming back in the fall evidently others are saying and no you can clearly see the airlines and transportation as the biggest sort of l-shape which is the most negative I'm sure restaurants and hospitality are kind of similar and then you see energy you know which got crushed we had you know oil you know negative people paying it big barrels of oil but now look at that you know expectation of a pretty strong you know you shape recovery as people start driving again and the economy picks up so maybe you could give us some thoughts on on some of those sort of outliers yeah so I kind of bucket you know the the next two outliers as from an l-shaped in a u-shaped so on the l-shaped side like like you said education airlines transportation and probably to a little bit lesser extent industrials materials manufacturing services consulting these verticals are indicating the highest percentages from an l-shaped recovery right so three plus orders of revenue declines and deceleration followed by kind of you know minimal to moderate growth and look there's no surprise here those are the verticals that have been impacted the most by less demand from consumers and and businesses and then as you mentioned on the energy utility side and then I would probably bucket maybe healthcare Pharma those have some of the largest percentages of u-shaped recovery and it's funny like I read a lot of commentary from some of the energy in the healthcare CIOs and they were said they were very optimistic about a u-shaped type of recovery and so it kind of you know maybe with those two issues then you could even kind of lump them into you know probably to a lesser extent but you could probably open into the prior one with the airlines and the education and services consulting and IMM where you know these are definitely the verticals that are going to see the longest longest recoveries it's probably a little bit more uniform versus what we've kind of talked about a few minutes ago with you know IT and and retail consumer where it's definitely very bifurcated you know there's definitely winners and losers there yeah and again it's a very complicated situation a lot of people that I've talked to are saying look you know we really don't have a clear picture that's why all these companies have are not giving guidance many people however are optimistic not only for a vet a vaccine but but but also they're thinking as young people with disposable income they're gonna kind of say dorm damn the torpedoes I'm not really going to be exposed and you know they can come back much stronger you know there seems to be pent up demand for some of the things like elective surgery or even the weather is sort of more important health care needs so that obviously could be a snap back so you know obviously we're really closely looking at this one thing though is is certain is that people are expecting a permanent change and you've got data that really shows that on the on the next chart that's right so one of the one of the last questions that we asked on this you know quick coded flash poll was do you anticipate permanent changes to your kind of IT stack IT spend based on the last few months you know as everyone has been working remotely and you know rarely do you see results point this much in one direction but 92% of CIOs and and kind of IT you know high level ITN users indicated yes there are going to be permanent changes and you know one of the things we talked about in March and look we were really the first ones you know you know in our discussion where we were talking about work from home spend kind of negating or balancing out all these declines right we were saying look yes we are seeing a lot of budgets come down but surprisingly we're seeing 2030 percent of organizations accelerate spent and even the ones that are spending less they even then you know some of their some of their budgets are kind of being negated by this work from home spend right when you think about collaboration tool is an additional VPN and networking bandwidth in laptops and then security all that stuff CIOs now continue to spend on because what what CIO is now understand as productivity has remained at very high levels right in March CIOs were very with the catastrophe and productivity that has not come true so on the margin CIOs and organizations are probably much more positive on that front and so now because there is no vaccine where you know CIOs and just in general the population we don't know when one is coming and so remote work seems to be the new norm moving forward especially that productivity you know levels are are pretty good with people working from home so from that perspective everything that looked like it was maybe going to be temporary just for the next few months as people work from home that's how organizations are now moving forward well and we saw Twitter basically said we're gonna make work from home permanent that's probably cuz their CEO wants to you know live in Africa Google I think is going to the end of the year I think many companies are going to look at a hybrid and give employees a choice say look if you want to work from home and you can be productive you get your stuff done you know we're cool with that I think the other point is you know everybody talks about these digital transformations you know leading into Kovan and I got to tell you I think a lot of companies were sort of complacent they talked the talk but they weren't walking the walk meaning they really weren't becoming digital businesses they really weren't putting data at the core and I think now it's really becoming an imperative there's no question that that what we've been talking about and forecasting has been pulled forward and you you're either going to have to step up your digital game or you're going to be in big trouble and the other thing that's I'm really interested in is will companies sub optimize profitability in the near term in order to put better business resiliency in place and better flexibility will they make those investments and I think if they do you know longer term they're going to be in better shape you know if they don't they could maybe be okay in the near term but I'm gonna put a caution sign a little longer term no look I think everything that's been done in the last few months you know in terms of having those continuation plans because you know do two pandemics all that stuff that is now it look you got to have that in your playbook right and so to your point you know this is where CIOs are going and if you're not transforming yourself or you didn't or you know lesson learned because now you're probably having to move twice as fast to support all your employees so I think you know this pandemic really kind of sped up you know digital transformation initiatives which is why you know you're seeing some companies desks and cloud related companies with very good earnings reports that are guiding well and then you're seeing other companies that are pulling their guidance because of uncertainty but it's it's likely more on the side of they're just not seeing the same levels of spend because if they haven't oriented themselves on that digital transformation side so I think you know events like this they typically you know Showcase winners and losers then you know when when things are going well and you know everything is kind of going up well I think that - there's a big you know discussion around is the ESPY overvalued right now I won't make that call but I will say this then there's a lot of data out there there's data and earnings reports there's data about this pandemic which change continues to change maybe not so much daily but you're getting new information multiple times a week so you got to look to that data you got to make your call pick your spot so you talk about a stock pickers market I think it's very much true here there are some some gonna be really strong companies emerging out of this you know don't gamble but do your research and I think you'll you'll find some you know some Dems out there you know maybe Warren Buffett can't find them okay but the guys at Main Street I think you know the I am I'm optimistic I wonder how you feel about about the recovery I I think we may be tainted by tech you know I'm very much concerned about certain industries but I think the tech industry which is our business is gonna come out of this pretty strong yeah we look at the one thing we we should we should have stated this earlier the majority of organizations are not expecting a v-shaped recovery and yet I still think there's part of the consensus is expecting a v-shaped recovery you can see as we demonstrate in some of the earlier charts the you know almost the majority of organizations are expecting a u-shaped recovery and even then as we mentioned right that you shape there is some cautious up around there and I have it you probably have it where yes if everything goes well it looks like 2021 we can really get back on track but there's so much unknown and so yes that does give I think everyone pause when it comes from an investment perspective and even just bringing on technologies and into your organization right which ones are gonna work which ones are it so I'm definitely on the boat of this is a more u-shaped in a v-shaped recovery I think the data backs that up I think you know when it comes to cloud and SAS players those areas and I think you've seen this on the investment side a lot of money has come out of all these other sectors that we mentioned that are having these l-shaped recoveries a lot of it has gone into the tech space I imagine that will continue and so that might be kind of you know it's tough to sometimes balance what's going on on the investor in the stock market side with you know how organizations are recovering I think people are really looking out in two to three quarters and saying look you know to your point where you set up earlier is there a lot of that pent up demand are things gonna get right back to normal because I think you know a lot of people are anticipating that and if we don't see that I think you know the next time we do some of these kind of coded flash bolts you know I'm interested to see whether or not you know maybe towards the end of the summer these recovery cycles are actually longer because maybe we didn't see some of that stuff so there's still a lot of unknowns but what we do know right now is it's not a v-shaped recovery agree especially on the unknowns there's monetary policy there's fiscal policy there's an election coming up there's a third there's escalating tensions with China there's your thoughts on the efficacy of the vaccine what about therapeutics you know do people who have this yet immunity how many people actually have it what about testing so the point I'm making here is it's very very important that you update your forecast regularly that's why it's so great that I have this partnership with you guys because we you know you're constantly updating the numbers it's not just a one-shot deal so suck it you know thanks so much for coming on looking forward to having you on in in the coming weeks really appreciate it absolutely yeah well I will really start kind of digging into how a lot of these emerging technologies are faring because of kovat 19 so that's I'm actually interested to start thinking through the data myself so yeah well we'll do some reporting in the coming weeks about that as well well thanks everybody for watching this episode of the cube insights powered by ETR I'm Dave Volante for sauger kuraki check out ETR dot plus that's where all the ETR data lives i published weekly on wiki bon calm and silicon angle calm and reach me at evil on Tay we'll see you next time [Music]

>> Live from San Diego, California It's the queue covering Sisqo live US 2019 Tio by Cisco and its ecosystem barters >> Welcome back. We're here, Cisco Live San Diego. You're watching the Cubans to minimum. My co host is Dave Volante and happy to welcome to the program. First of all, I have to tell Valente, no relation was the vice president of product management who are Cloud Platform in Solutions group at Cisco. And joining us is also Santana Dasgupta, who's a distinguished systems engineer at Cisco. We're gonna be talking about service Friday. Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. Of course. Alright, so jail let let's start the service. Freida Group, Of course. You know, we've heard for a long time how important service fighters are out there. Everything from service writers were going to become the new channel. A Sze Yu know customers less unless they're building their own data centers. You know, service fighters become a bigger environment. Tell us a little bit about you know your organ the latest What's going on in your customers? >> Yeah, So you know what? Cisco Obviously they are trying to help Ray in the transformation to actually multi cloud leveraging. Actually, the cloud benefits not only for enterprises and public sectors, but also for the service providers so that they can also reaped the benefit off the new actually trans technologies coming out, including five g on in that context. Obviously, if you really want to take advantage of Far Gina proper way going forward, starting actually with an evolution of architectures, you really have to look at the clouds and specifically what we call the telco cloud. >> Yeah, so the Espy market is going through a mass killed transformation, transformation in the business model and architecture and how you take the services to the market on one key. And it blew up the transformation that we believe is virtual elation, adopting the whole notion of telco cloud very virtualized your core functions for enabling the delivery of services in a more agile fashion into the market. But also it's all about transforming the court services construct itself. How do we push on the services element into the age of the net for being closer to the proximity of the Indians so that it enables much? Lord didn't see a new monitor visible applications, which is where service order to have a lot of open right now. >> So if I could just dig in on that for 1st 2nd you talk about services. So we watched that wave of network functions virtual ization, NFI where before it was I just had lots of appliances and rolling out each service individually, as opposed to what people want is they want, you know, the basically, you know, at market for the enterprise. And, you know, I just want to be able to get my services. You know, when I'm a consumer and you know, I want to do things well, I've got the Internet and I get those things. I need a similar environment from the service fighters going out to the Enterprise. Do I have that kind of high level, right? >> Yes, actually, we had on that bath. I mean, they're completely years as an industry were on the journey to actually get there on go. We initially talked about most of the core functions, like think ofthe armory packet corner policy or some some value added engine at the back end. But the world is evolving faster. To actually also think through that how we can add more consumer facing applications and services on top of it, like augmented reality, virtual reality, cloud gaming and all that sort >> of stuff. Dale, this is a real imperative for telcos, and it's a complicated situation, right, because they've got decades and decades of infrastructure built up. Don Tapscott famously said one time that God may have created the world in six days, but he didn't have an install base. And so the telcos they have of kind of a fossilized, hard installed based built around making sure it's up and not necessarily agile. Now you got all these over the top players coming in, and all these value other services on top of dumb pipe, the price is air coming down. The demand for data is going up, so they gotta change. That's right, right? So what? What do they have to do and what role this Cisco play? >> So again, it told about that software defined transformation and win that is required. And they, you know, we talked already a bit more about the record, an example that was actually even showcase briefly this morning because certainly, obviously it's a greenfield operator, so it's a bit of difference, but We think that there is a lot off applique ability to brown field as well tow the legacy. You have to actually chuck into the different domains what, that service provider environment and really start looking at how you can offer both consumer services and business services at a price point at a level of automation and agility that makes sense. And that is pretty much comparable to a large extent to what the cloud providers of the week. Um, you know, there are advantages the service providers hive in terms ofthe. Obviously, the services they deliver today thie assets that they own, the proximity, the locations as well, that they have the relationships. But really, there is a, as we said earlier, Nassif transformation that start with the network, but also with those pockets where you need to Software eyes will turn to software many of those assets >> essentially talking about a specialized telco cloud, if you will. So how is that different from you know, the clouds that we know the private clouds, the hybrid clouds, the public clouds, one of the attributes that are different in how do people get on the company's getting telcos? Get in that journey. >> Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at, uh, the telco industry in general, including ourselves, like the vendors. I mean, I call myself for ourselves as, like, you know, coming back from the era of dinosaurs, right? So, I mean, if you look at the access technology for last three decades, what have changed? Nothing way have been moving from one G Tito Tito treaty to 40. Now we're talking a five g without talking off. A fundamentally destructive are differentiated architecture. So that's something which is actually being coming up all in the front front at the moment on, that's changing the way the networks can be built. How you can build on how you can break the monolithic supplication and adopt a more decomposed, desegregated our conjecture and also, at the same time, drive all the services and applications in a more distributed manner with a flexible placement capability, so that you can enable all sort of new applications and services. And again, I mean at the other. And given the fact that this is mostly a brown Fillon moment, it is largely all about culture transformation, given the fact that you know, unless the people process on, the culture revolves. This would be a very tough journey. Moving for >> one of the point back to your question is wellies. Though there are nuances big ones between a 90 cloud, uh, today in the cloud that are generally club general purpose Cloud that offered, you know, buy are obviously partners ws Microsoft, Google it and really a telco clan based on the nature ofthe those network functions. The workload on the nature of this were close. The traffic demand that they have the understanding or cliff There are how the hardware itself or the underpinning the infrastructure needs to have some specific attributes to make this work at scale. But we're trying to mimic as much as possible the scaling capabilities, the flexibility, agility, the elasticity of a cloud so that service providers can read the prophet off pretty much a general cloud >> involvement. Conceptually, there are a lot of similar out similarities. I presume that from a developer standpoint, there's a Dev ops analog, analog, maybe a cloud native, maybe serve earless. Something like server list functions absolutely in Telco cloud. >> Absolutely, absolutely. So what we see is the idea under Telco World are actually coming together because I need a lot ofthe telco expertise were also at the same time. I need a lot of expertise because that's what exact exactly right now happening. I mean, there's some fundamental differences between a standard righty private, our hybrid Claude and tell the cloud like I deploy our thousands or hundreds of locations are set a few locations. The applications are different. It's highly Io intensive. You're dealing with a lot of packets like millions of packets which are mostly are transiting function going in and out. But having said that while this initial deployment wave is being targeted for mostly for those delicate type of obligations, we're seeing a very clear demand on a journey towards a common goal of setting up our one unified cloud, right so that you can host it and telco all in the same cloud on that's exactly what they want sexually takes a reality. >> Well, in one of the things I'm surprised we haven't touched on yet is EJ Computing is, you know, critical for these environment. And I can't just have bespoke solutions for all of them. From my corrida edge toe, you know, Telco, there need to be communications amongst all of these because data is going to flow between them and therefore, it can't be. You know, Moz, in between them, I need to be able to pass data and have my applications access these various pieces. >> Absolutely. In fact, the way we have he'll concede some of the systems is a unified architecture that is distributed as a Delco plowed. So that actually from the new service managers or the new ways says B. S s. They see, actually, one unified cloud with placement capabilities based on constraints where you can actually put the workload where they need to be based on Soleil is based on the requirements in technical resources that are available, you know, from forage to a central DC and all the way to actually a public cloud because we're starting seeing some of the customers around the world. It's really a massive transformation that is global. Some of them are starting to look at how they can leverage the public cloud for bursting purposes, for disaster recovery, or even for other functions for specific applications that maybe less demanding, actually on the side. >> Well, since I know you were talking about how that one of the differences that hell cozier more distributed, you know, greater io intensity. My question is, can we learn from the telco clouds from a security model standpoint? Because normally if they go tell coz we're kind of behind traditional i t. But from a security model astounds maybe more challenging. And you always hear the traditional i t. So we it's going to the edge, the telcos already there. So is the security model actually more advanced than what can we learn from that? And how is it >> evolving? Yeah, the security model is still evolving. So in fact, I would say for the total cloud which is being done at the more Court Central Data Center location, the security model is pretty advanced. But when things go towards the edge, especially its computing, which is huge, the security model is actually evolving. And we see a lot of promises with things such as, you know, secure chain of trust, or even block Chinn actually coming there and trying to play a huge role. So I think that's one area which we expected you all over the next few years. It's a lot of challenge but also you know, it's very exciting in that particular space. >> And actually those. This is a very key point because that infrastructure from service providers is actually usually many of the country's part of the national assets the cyber securities. The agencies in those countries work actually with Cisco Security Trust officer letters to really make sure that we do have a level of security that goes beyond maybe even the boundaries of what we've seen on enterprise. So yes, to your point, there is a lot of advances in that area as well. >> All right, so jail, half the shows I've been to this year have had a breakout for Telco. There's there's no denying that there's a lot of growth and a lot of change happening in that environment. What differentiates Cisco's approach from the rest of the people looking at the multi cloud and software pieces >> so more people are murky? Pool area is first. Obviously we have these murky cloud or this hybrid cloud view in which we have worked with the best out there. The Web scale providers, the cloud providers. In fact, if I look at racket and others there are even mimicking this notion off a sorry the Google approach to, you know, really the reliability enginering the transformation off those class cloud in a very specific way. Theater aspect is we're doing it. We have a holistic view at the Telco Cloud. It's not just the infrastructure, it's the automation. The automation is absolutely critical that there is absolutely no touch from humans to be able actually to manage of that scale even more so if you deploy it in 1,000 of edge points, it has to be completely actually automated. So the aspect ofthe automation, the aspect of security, the aspect of people transformation, organizational as well is something that, between the service component to this other solution and the products is very unique. And what we do, it's Cisco. >> Yeah, if I may just add one thing on top of that, just chill said right. So if you look at our playing the Espy or telco market, we have a comprehensive solution. We are solutions right from routing Optical Jacinto Compute Telco, Claude Watch television automation, melodic or being gcm. Here's a bunch of stuff, right? But what becomes very interesting is if you look at 55 g and we all are talking up. The five G is going to be all about enterprise services now. Think about it for a while, right? Who is the number one dominant player in the market for a better price, with the deepest portfolio absolution and the farthest reaching there? No price market that Cisco. So that's what we believe, that we can actually really, you know, creator right confluence of border side of the technology to create the right offer for our customers and held them to take to the market. >> In fact, we've taken a number off our very large enterprise customers that journey to understand, from their point of view as well how they could leverage five g wife like six in the context off a mobile first cloud first type environment. And it's across permeates, actually, obviously what those service providers need to offer to grow again beyond customer services, which is not where, actually the you know, the hyper growth will be as faras Service school sir, >> Well, jail in Santa Ana. Thank you so much for sharing the updates. What happened? Tell Cho service provider space. Thanks so much for joining us. Everybody alright, We'll be back with lots more water wall coverage here at Cisco alive. San Diego 2019 for David Dante on stew Minimum. And thank you for what? Thank you.