>>Good morning and welcome back to Detroit, Michigan. My name is Savannah Peterson and I'm here on set of the cube, my co-host John Farer. How you doing this morning, John? >>Doing great. Feeling fresh. Day two of three days of coverage, feeling >>Fresh. That is that for being in the heat of the conference. I love that attitude. It's gonna >>Be a great day today. We'll see you at the end of the day. Yeah, >>Well, we'll hold him to it. All right, everyone hold 'em accountable. Very excited to start the day off with an internet, a legend as well as a cube og. We are joined this morning by Matt Klein. Matt, welcome to the show. >>Thanks for having me. Good to see you. Yep. >>It's so, what's the vibe? Day two, Everyone's buzzing. What's got you excited at the show? You've been here before, but it's been three years you >>Mentioned. I, I was saying it's been three years since I've been to a conference, so it's been interesting for me to see what is, what is the same and what is different pre and post covid. But just really great to see everyone here again and nice to not be sitting in my home by myself. >>You know, Savannah said you're an OG and we were referring before we came on camera that you were your first came on the Cub in 2017, second Cuban event. But you were, I think, on the first wave of what I call the contributor momentum, where CNCF really got the traction. Yeah. You were at Lift, Envoy was contributed and that was really hyped up and I remember that vividly. It was day zero they called it back then. Yeah. And you got so much traction. People are totally into it. Yeah. Now we've got a lot of that going on now. Right. A lot of, lot of day Zero events. They call 'em co, co-located events. You got web assembly, a lot of other hype out there. What do you see out there that you like? How would you look at some of these other Sure. Communities that are developing, What's the landscape look like as you look out? Because Envoy set the table, what is now a standard >>Practice. Yeah. What's been so interesting for me just to come here to the conference is, you know, we open source Envoy in 2016. We donated in 2017. And as you mentioned at that time, Envoy was, you know, everyone wanted to talk about Envoy. And you know, much to my amazement, Envoy is now pervasive. I mean, it's used everywhere around the world. It's like, never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined that it would be so widely used. And it's almost gotten to the point where it's become boring. You know, It's just assumed that Envoy is, is everywhere. And now we're hearing a lot about Eeb p f and Web assembly and GI ops and you know, AI and a bunch of other things. So it's, it's actually great. It's made me very happy that it's become so pervasive, but it's also fun. Yeah. We mention to, to look around all other stuff >>Like congratulate. It's just a huge accomplishment really. I think it's gonna be historic, historical moment for the industry too. But I like how it progressed. I mean, I don't mind hype cycles as long as it's some vetting. Sure. Of course. You know, use cases that are clearly defined, but you gotta get that momentum in the community, but then you start gotta get down to, to business. Yep. So, so to speak and get it deployed, get traction. Yep. What should projects look like? And, and give us the update on Envoy. Cause you guys have a, a great use case of how you got traction. Right. Take us through some of the early days of what made Envoy successful in your opinion. Great question. >>Yeah. You know, I, I think Envoy is fairly unique around this conference in the sense that Envoy was developed by Lyft, which is an end user company. And many of the projects in this ecosystem, you know, no judgment, for better or worse, they are vendor backed. And I think that's a different delivery mechanism when it's coming from an end user where you're solving a, a particular business case. So Envoy was really developed for Lyft in a, you know, very early scaling days and just, you know, trying to help Lyft solve its business problems. So I think when Envoy was developed, we were, you know, scaling, we were falling over and actually many other companies were having similar problems. So I think Envoy became very widely deployed because many companies were having similar issues. So Envoy just became pervasive among lift peer companies. And then we saw a lot of vendor uptake in the service mesh space in the API gateway space among large internet providers. So, I I I, I think it's just, it's an interesting case because I think when you're solving real problems on the ground, in some ways it's easier to actually get adoption than if you're trying to develop it from a commercial backing. >>And that's the class, I mean, almost, It's almost like open source product market fit. It is in its own way. Cause you have a problem. Absolutely. Other people have the same problem finding >>Too. I mean, it's, it's designed thinking from >>A different, When, when I talk to people about open source, I like to tell people that I do not think it's any different than starting a company. I actually think it's all the same problems finding pro product, market fit, hiring, like finding contributors and maintainers, like doing PR and marketing. Yeah. Getting team together, traction, getting, getting funding. I mean, you have to have money to do all these things. Yeah. So I think a lot of people think of open source as I, I don't know, you know, this fantastic collaborative effort and, and it is that, but there's a lot more to it. Yeah. And it is much more akin to starting a >>Company. Let's, let's just look at that for a second. Cause I think that's a good point. And I was having a conversation in the hallway two nights ago on this exact point. If the power dynamics of a startup in the open source, as you point out, is just different, it's community based. So there are things you just gotta be mindful of. It's not top down. >>Exactly. It's not like, >>Right. You know, go take that hill. It's really consensus based, but it is a startup. All those elements are in place. Absolutely. You need leadership, you gotta have debates, alignment, commit, You gotta commit to a vision. Yep. You gotta make adjustments. Build the trajectory. So based on that, I mean, do you see more end user traction? Cause I was, we were talking also about Intuit, they donated some of their tow code R goes out there. Yep. R go see the CDR goes a service. Where's the end user contributions to these days? Do you feel like it's good, still healthy? >>I, I mean, I, I'm, I'm biased. I would like to see more. I think backstage outta Spotify is absolutely fantastic. That's an area just in terms of developer portals and developer efficiency that I think has been very underserved. So seeing Backstage come outta Spotify where they've used it for years, and I think we've already seen they had a huge date, you know, day one event. And I, I think we're gonna see a lot more out of that >>Coming from, I'm an end user, pretend I'm an end user, so pretend I have some code. I want to, Oh man, I'm scared. I don't am I'm gonna lose my competitive edge. What's the, how do you talk to the enterprise out there that might be thinking about putting their project out there for whether it's the benefit of the community, developing talent, developing the product? >>Sure. Yeah. I would say that I, I would ask everyone to think through all of the pros and cons of doing that because it's not for free. I mean, doing open source is costly. It takes developer time, you know, it takes management time, it takes budgeting dollars. But the benefits if successful can be huge, right? I mean, it can be just in terms of, you know, getting people into your company, getting users, getting more features, all of that. So I would always encourage everyone to take a very pragmatic and realistic view of, of what is required to make that happen. >>What was that decision like at Lyft >>When you I I'm gonna be honest, it was very naive. I I think we've, of that we think we need to know. No, just didn't know. Yeah. I think a lot of us, myself included, had very minimal open source experience. And had we known, or had I known what would've happened, I, I still would've done it. But I, I'm gonna be honest, the last seven years have aged me what I feel like is like 70 or a hundred. It's been a >>But you say you look out in the landscape, you gotta take pride, look at what's happened. Oh, it's, I mean, it's like you said, it >>Matured fantastic. I would not trade it for anything, but it has, it has been a journey. What >>Was the biggest surprise? What was the most eye opening thing about the journey for you? >>I, I think actually just the recognition of all of the non-technical things that go into making these things a success. I think at a conference like this, people think a lot about technology. It is a technology conference, but open source is business. It really is. I mean, it, it takes money to keep it going. It takes people to keep >>It going. You gotta sell people on the concepts. >>It takes leadership to keep it going. It takes internal, it takes marketing. Yeah. So for me, what was most eyeopening is over the last five to seven years, I feel like I actually have not developed very many, if any technical skills. But my general leadership skills, you know, that would be applicable again, to running a business have applied so well to, to >>Growing off, Hey, you put it out there, you hear driving the ship. It's good to do that. They need that. It really needs it. And the results speak for itself and congratulations. Yeah. Thank you. What's the update on the project? Give us an update because you're seeing, seeing a lot of infrastructure people having the same problem. Sure. But it's also, the environments are a little bit different. Some people have different architectures. Absolutely different, more cloud, less cloud edges exploding. Yeah. Where does Envoy fit into the landscape they've seen and what's the updates? You've got some new things going on. Give the updates on what's going on with the project Sure. And then how it sits in the ecosystem vis-a-vis what people may use it for. >>Yeah. So I'm, from a core project perspective, honestly, things have matured. Things have stabilized a bit. So a lot of what we focus on now are less Big bang features, but more table stakes. We spend a lot of time on security. We spend a lot of time on software supply chain. A topic that you're probably hearing a lot about at this conference. We have a lot of software supply chain issues. We have shipped Quicken HTB three over the last year. That's generally available. That's a new internet protocol still work happening on web assembly where ha doing a lot of work on our build and release pipeline. Again, you would think that's boring. Yeah. But a lot of people want, you know, packages for their fedora or their ADU or their Docker images. And that takes a lot of effort. So a lot of what we're doing now is more table stakes, just realizing that the project is used around the world very widely. >>Yeah. The thing that I'm most interested in is, we announced in the last six months a project called Envoy Gateway, which is layered on top of Envoy. And the goal of Envoy Gateway is to make it easier for people to run Envoy within Kubernetes. So essentially as an, as an ingress controller. And Envoy is a project historically, it is a very sophisticated piece of software, very complicated piece of software. It's not for everyone. And we want to provide Envoy Gateway as a way of onboarding more users into the Envoy ecosystem and making Envoy the, the default API gateway or edge proxy within Kubernetes. But in terms of use cases, we see Envoy pervasively with service mesh, API gateway, other types of low balancing cases. I mean, honestly, it's, it's all over the place at >>This point. I'm curious because you mentioned it's expanded beyond your wildest dreams. Yeah. And how could you have even imagined what Envoy was gonna do? Is there a use case or an application that really surprised you? >>You know, I've been asked that before and I, it's hard for me to answer that. It's, it's more that, I mean, for example, Envoy is used by basically every major internet company in China. I mean, like, wow. Everyone in China uses Envoy, like TikTok, like Alibaba. I mean like everyone, all >>The large sale, >>Everyone. You know, and it's used, it's used in the, I'm just, it's not just even the us. So I, I think the thing that has surprised me more than individual use cases is just the, the worldwide adoption. You know, that something could be be everywhere. And that I think, you know, when I open my phone and I'm opening all of these apps on my phone, 80 or 90% of them are going through Envoy in some form. Yeah. You know, it's, it's just that pervasive, I blow your mind a little bit sometimes >>That does, that's why you say plumber on your Twitter handle as your title. Cause you're working on all these things that are like really important substrate issues, Right. For scale, stability, growth. >>And, you know, to, I, I guess the only thing that I would add is, my goal for Envoy has always been that it is that boring, transparent piece of technology. Kind of similar to Linux. Linux is everywhere. Right? But no one really knows that they're using Linux. It's, it's justs like Intel inside, we're not paying attention. It's just there, there's >>A core group working on, if they have pride, they understand the mission, the importance of it, and they make their job is to make it invisible. >>Right. Exactly. >>And that's really ease of use. What's some of the ease of use sways and, and simplicity that you're working on, if you can talk about that. Because to be boring, you gotta be simpler and easier. All boring complex is unique is not boring. Complex is stressful. No, >>I I think we approach it in a couple different ways. One of them is that because we view Envoy as a, as a base technology in the ecosystem, we're starting to see, you know, not only vendors, but other open source projects that are being built on top of Envoy. So things like API Gateway, sorry, Envoy Gateway or you know, projects like Istio or all the other projects that are out there. They use Envoy as a component, but in some sense Envoy is a, as a transparent piece of that system. Yeah. So I'm a big believer in the ecosystem that we need to continue to make cloud native easier for, for end users. I still think it's too complicated. And so I think we're there, we're, we're pushing up the stack a bit. >>Yeah. And that brings up a good point. When you start seeing people building on top of things, right? That's enabling. So as you look at the enablement of Envoy, what are some of the things you see out on the horizon if you got the 20 mile stare out as you check these boring boxes, make it more plumbing, Right? Stable. You'll have a disruptive enabling platform. Yeah. What do you see out there? >>I am, you know, I, again, I'm not a big buzzword person, but, so some people call it serverless functions as a service, whatever. I'm a big believer in platforms in the sense that I really believe in the next 10 to 15 years, developers, they want to provide code. You know, they want to call APIs, they want to use pub subsystems, they want to use cas and databases. And honestly, they don't care about container scheduling or networking or load balancing or any of >>These things. It's handled in the os >>They just want it to be part of the operating system. Yeah, exactly. So I, I really believe that whether it's an open source or in cloud provider, you know, package solutions, that we're going to be just moving increasingly towards systems likes Lambda and Fargate and Google Cloud Run and Azure functions and all those kinds of things. And I think that when you do that much of the functionality that has historically powered this conference like Kubernetes and Onvoy, these become critical but transparent components that people don't, they're not really aware of >>At that point. Yeah. And I think that's a great call out because one of the things we're seeing is the market forces of, of this evolution, what you just said is what has to happen Yep. For digital transformation to, to get to its conclusion. Yep. Which means that everything doesn't have to serve the business, it is the business. Right. You know it in the old days. Yep. Engineers, they serve the business. Like what does that even mean? Yep. Now, right. Developers are the business, so they need that coding environment. So for your statement to happen, that simplicity in visibility calling is invisible os has to happen. So it brings up the question in open source, the trend is things always work itself out on the wash, as we say. So when you start having these debates and the alignment has to come at some point, you can't get to those that stay without some sort of defacto or consensus. Yep. And even standards, I'm not a big be around hardcore standards, but we can all agree and have consensus Sure. That will align behind, say Kubernetes, It's Kubernetes a standard. It's not like an i e you know, but this next, what, what's your reaction to this? Because this alignment has to come after debate. So all the process contending for I am the this of that. >>Yeah. I'm a look, I mean, I totally see the value in like i e e standards and, and there's a place for that. At the same time, for me personally as a technologist, as an engineer, I prefer to let the, the market as it were sort out what are the defacto standards. So for example, at least with Envoy, Envoy has an API that we call Xds. Xds is now used beyond Envoy. It's used by gc, it's used by proprietary systems. And I'm a big believer that actually Envoy in its form is probably gonna go away before Xds goes away. So in some ways Xds has become a defacto standard. It's not an i e e standard. Yeah. We, we, we have been asked about whether we should do that. Yeah. But I just, I I think the >>It becomes a component. >>It becomes a component. Yeah. And then I think people gravitate towards these things that become de facto standards. And I guess I would rather let the people on the show floor decide what are the standards than have, you know, 10 people sitting in a room figure out >>The community define standards versus organizational institutional defined standards. >>And they both have places a >>Hundred percent. Yeah, sure. And, and there's social proof in both of them. Yep. >>Frankly, >>And we were saying on the cube that we believe that the developers will decide the standard. Sure. Because that's what you're basically saying. They're deciding what they do with their code. Right. And over time, as people realize the trade of, hey, if everyone's coding this right. And makes my life easier to get to that state of nirvana and enlightenment, as we would say. Yeah. Yeah. >>Starting strong this morning. John, I I love this. I'm curious, you mentioned Backstage by Spotify wonderful example. Do you think that this is a trend we're gonna see with more end users >>Creating open source projects? Like I, you know, I hope so. The flip side of that, and as we all know, we're entering an uncertain economic time and it can be hard to justify the effort that it takes to do it well. And what I typically counsel people when they are about to open source something is don't do it unless you're ready to commit the resources. Because opensourcing something and not supporting it. Yeah. I actually can be think, I think it'd be worse. >>It's an, it's insult that people, you're asking to commit to something. Exactly. Needs of time, need the money investment, you gotta go all in and push. >>So I, so I very much want to see it and, and I want to encourage that here, but it's hard for me to look into the crystal ball and know, you know, whether it's gonna happen more >>Or less at what point there were, are there too many projects? You know, I mean, but I'm not, I mean this in, in a, in a negative way. I mean it more in the way of, you know, you mentioned supply chain. We were riffing on the cube about at some point there's gonna be so much code open source continuing thundering away with, with the value that you're just gluing things. Right. I don't need the code, this code there. Okay. What's in the code? Okay. Maybe automation can help out on supply chain. Yeah. But ultimately composability is the new >>Right? It is. Yeah. And, and I think that's always going to be the case. Case. Good thing. It is good thing. And I, I think that's just, that's just the way of things for sure. >>So no code will be, >>I think, I think we're seeing a lot of no code situations that are working great for people. And, and, but this is actually really no different than my, than my serverless arguing from before. Just as a, as a, a slight digression. I'm building something new right now and you know, we're using cloud native technologies and all this stuff and it's still, >>What are you building? >>Even as a I'm, I'm gonna keep that, I'm gonna keep that secret. I know I'm, but >>We'll find out on Twitter. We're gonna find out now that we know it. Okay. Keep on mystery. You open that door. We're going down see in a couple weeks. >>Front >>Page is still an angle. >>But I, I was just gonna say that, you know, and I consider myself, you know, you're building something, I'm, I see myself an expert in the cloud native space. It's still difficult, It's difficult to, to pull together these technologies and I think that we will continue to make it easier for people. >>What's the biggest difficulties? Can you give us some examples? >>Well, just, I mean, we still live in a big mess of yammel, right? Is a, there's a, there's a lot of yaml out there. And I think just wrangling all of that in these systems, there's still a lot of cobbling together where I think that there can be unified platforms that make it easier for us to focus on our application logic. >>Yeah. I gotta ask you a question cuz I've talked to college kids all the time. My son's a junior in CS and he's, you know, he's coding away. What would you, how does a student or someone who's learning figure out where, who they are? Because there's now, you know, you're either into the infrastructure under the hood Yeah. Or you're, cuz that's coding there option now coding the way your infrastructure people are working on say the boring stuff so everyone else can have ease of use. And then what is just, I wanna just code, there's two types of personas. How does someone know who they are? >>My, when I give people career advice, my biggest piece of advice to them is in the first five to seven to 10 years of their career, I encourage people to do different things like every say one to two to three years. And that doesn't mean like quitting companies and changing companies, it could mean, you know, within a company that they join doing different teams, you know, working on front end versus back end. Because honestly I think people don't know. I think it's actually very, Yeah. Our industry is so broad. Yeah. That I think it's almost impossible to >>Know. You gotta get your hands dirty to jump >>In order to know what you like. And for me, in my career, you know, I've dabbled in different areas, but I've always come back to infrastructure, you know, that that's what I enjoy >>The most. Okay. You gotta, you gotta taste everything. See what you, what >>You like. Exactly. >>Right. Last question for you, Matt. It's been three years since you were here. Yep. What do you hope that we're able to say next year? That we can't say this year? Hmm. Beyond the secrets of your project, which hopefully we will definitely be discussing then. >>You know, I I, I don't have anything in particular. I would just say that I would like to see more movement towards projects that are synthesizing and making it easier to use a lot of the existing projects that we have today. So for example, I'm, I'm very bullish on backstage. Like I, I've, I've always said that we need better developer UIs that are not CLIs. Like I know it's a general perception among many people. Totally agree with you. Frankly, you're not a real systems engineer unless you type on the command line. I, I think better user interfaces are better for humans. Yep. So just for a project like Backstage to be more integrated with the rest of the projects, whether that be Envo or Kubernete or Argo or Flagger. I, I just, I think there's tremendous potential for further integration of some >>Of these projects. It just composability That makes total sense. Yep. Yep. You're, you're op you're operating and composing. >>Yep. And there's no reason that user experience can't be better. And then more people can create and build. So I think it's awesome. Matt, thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah, this has been fantastic. Be sure and check out Matt on Twitter to find out what that next secret project is. John, thank you for joining me this morning. My name is Savannah Peterson and we'll be here all day live from the cube. We hope you'll be joining us throughout the evening until a happy hour today. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming. Thanks for watching.

foreign [Music] my name is Savannah Peterson and I am very excited to be coming to you today from the cube in Palo Alto we're going to be talking about kubecon giving a little preview of the hype and what you might be able to expect in Detroit with the one and only co-founder and CEO of the cube and siliconangle John ferriere John hello how are you today thanks for hosting and doing the preview with me my goodness a pleasure I we got acquainted this time last year how do you think the ecosystem has changed are you excited well first of all I missed kubecon Valencia because I had covid I was so excited to be there this big trip plan and then couldn't make it but so much has gone on I mean we've been at every kubecon the cube was there at the beginning when openstack was still going on kubernetes just started came out of Google we were there having beers with Lou Tucker and a bunch of The Luminaries when it all kind of came together and then watch it year by year progress through and how it's changed the industry and mainly how open source has been really the wave behind it combining with the Linux foundation and then cncf and then open source movement and good kubernetes has been amazing and under it all containers has been the real driver and all this so you know Docker containers Docker was a well-funded company they had to Pivot and were restructured now they're pure open source so containers have gone Supernova on top of that kubernetes and with that's a complete ecosystem of opportunity to create the next operating system in in software development so to me kubecon is at the center of software software 2030 what do you want to call it super cloud it's that it's really action it's not where the old school is it's where the new school is excellent so what has you most excited this year what's the biggest change from this time last year and now well two things I'm looking at this year uh carefully both from an editorial lens and also from a sponsorship lenses where is the funding going on the sponsorships because again a very diverse ecosystem of Builders but also vendors so I'm going to see how that Dynamics going on but also on the software side a lot of white space going on in the stack or in the map if you will you know the run times you've got observability you got a lot of competition maybe projects might be growing some Rising some falling maybe merge together I'm going to see how that but there's a lot of white spaces developing so I'm curious to see what's new on that area and then service meshes is a big deal this year so I'm looking for what's going on so it's been kind of a I won't say cold war but kind of like uh you know where is this going to go and because it's a super important part of of the of the orchestration and managing containers and so be very interested to see how service mesh does istio and other versions out there have been around for a while so that and also the other controversy is the number of stars on GitHub a project may have so sometimes that carries a lot of weight but we're going to look at which ones are rising which ones are falling again um which ones are getting the most votes by the developers vote with their code yeah absolutely well we did definitely miss you down in Los Angeles but it will be great to be in Detroit what has you most excited do you think that we're going to see the number of people in person that we have in the past I know you've seen it since the beginning so I think this year is going to be explosive from that psychology angle because I think it was really weird because La was on they were a bold to make that move we're all there is first conference back it was a lot a lot of like badges don't touch me only handshakes fist pumps but it was at the beginning of the covid second wave right so it was kind of still not yet released where everyone's was not worried about it so I think it's in the past year in the past eight months I mean I've been places with no masks people have no masks Vegas other places so I think it's going to be a year where it will be a lot more people in person because the growth and the opportunities are so big it's going to drive a lot of people in person just like Amazon reinvent those yeah absolutely and as the most important and prominent event in the kubernetes space I think everyone's very excited to to get back together when we think about this space do you think there that anyone's the clear winner yet or do you think it's still a bit of a open territory in terms of the companies and Partnerships I think Red Hat has done a great job and they're you know I think they're going to see how well they can turn this into gold for them because they've positioned themselves very well open shift years ago was kind of waffling I won't say it in a bad way but like but once they got view on containers and kubernetes red has done an exceptional job in how they position their company being bought by ibms can be very interesting to see how that influences change so if Red Hat can stay red hat I think IBM will win I think customers that's one company I like the startups we're seeing companies like platform nine Rafi systems young companies coming out in the kubernetes as a service space because I think whoever can make kubernetes easier because I think that's the hard part right now even though that the show is called kubecon is a lot more than kubernetes I think the container layer what docker's doing has been exceptional that's the real action the question is how does that impact the kubernetes layers so kubernetes is not a done deal yet I think it hasn't really crossed the chasm yet it's certainly popular but not every company is adopting it so we're starting to see that we need to see more adoption of kubernetes seeing that happen it's going to decide who the winners are totally agree with that if you look at the data a lot of companies are and people are excited about kubernetes but they haven't taken the plunge to shifting over their stack or fully embracing it because of that complexity so I'm very curious to see what we learn this week about who those players might be moving forward how does it feel to be in Detroit when was the last time you were here I was there in 2007 was the last time I was in that town so uh we'll see what's like wow yeah but things have changed yeah the lions are good this year they've got great hockey goalies there so you know all right you've heard that sports fans let John know what you're thinking your Sports predictions for this season I love that who do you hope to get to meet while we're at the show I want to meet more end user customers we're gonna have Envoy again on the cube I think Red Hat was going to be a big sponsor this year they've been great um we're looking for end user project most looking for some editorial super cloud like um commentary because the cncf is kind of the developer Tech Community that's powering in my opinion this next wave of software development Cloud native devops is now Cloud native developers devops is kind of going away that's killed I.T in my opinion data and security Ops is the new kind of Ops the new it so it's good to see how devops turns into more of a software engineering meet supercloud so I think you're going to start to see the infrastructure become more programmable it's infrastructure as code so I think if anything I'm more excited to hear more stories about how infrastructure as code is now the new standard so if when that truly happens the super cloud model be kicking into high gear I love that let's you touched on it a little bit right there but I want to dig in a bit since you've been around since the beginning what is it that you appreciate or enjoy so much about the kubernetes community and the people around this I think there are authentic people and I think they're they're building they're also Progressive they're very diverse um they're open and inclusive they try stuff and um they can be critical but they're not jerks about it so when people try something um they're open-minded of a failure so it's a classic startup mentality I think that is embodied throughout the Linux Foundation but CNC in particular has to bridge the entrepreneurial and corporate Vibe so they've done an exceptional job doing that and that's what I like about this money making involved but there's also a lot of development and Innovation that comes out of it so the next big name and startup could come out of this community and that's what I hope to see coming out here is that next brand that no one's heard of that just comes out of nowhere and just takes a big position in the marketplace so that's going to be interesting to see hopefully we have on our stage there yeah that's the goal we're going to interview them all a year from now when we're sitting here again what do you hope to be able to say about this space or this event that we might not be able to say today I think it's going to be more of clarity around um the new modern software development techniques software next gen using AI more faster silicon chips you see Amazon with what they're doing the custom silicon more processing but I think Hardware matters we've been talking a lot about that I think I think it's we're going to shift from what's been innovative and what's changed I think I think if you look at what's been going on in the industry outside of crypto the infrastructure hasn't really changed much except for AWS what they've done so I'm expecting to see more Innovations at the physics level way down in the chips and then that lower end of the stack is going to be dominated by either one of the three clouds probably AWS and then the middle layer is going to be this where the abstraction is around making infrastructure as code really happen I think that's going to be Clarity coming out of this year next year we should have some visibility into the vertical applications and of the AI and machine learning absolutely digging in on that actually even more because I like what you're saying a lot what verticals do you think that kubernetes is going to impact the most looking even further out than say a year I mean I think that hot ones Healthcare fintech are obvious to get the most money they're spending I think they're the ones who are already kind of creating these super cloud models where they're actually changed over their their spending from capex to Opex and they're driving top line revenue as part of that so you're seeing companies that wants customers of the I.T vendors are now becoming the providers that's a big super cloud Trend we see the other verticals are going to be served by a lot of men in Surprise oil and gas you know all the classic versus Healthcare I mentioned that one those are the classic verticals retail is going to I think be massively huge as you get more into the internet of things that's truly internet based you're going to start to see a lot more Edge use cases so Telecom I think it's going to be completely disrupted by new brands so I think once that you see see how that plays out but all verticals are going to be disrupted just a casual statement to say yeah yeah no doubt in my mind that's great I'm personally really excited about the edge applications that are possible here and can't wait to see can't wait to see what happens next I'm curious as to your thoughts how based given your history here and we don't have to say number of years that you've been participating in in Cape Cod but give them your history what's the evolution looked like from that Community perspective when you were all just starting out having that first drink did you anticipate that we would be here with thousands of people in Detroit you know I knew the moment was happening around um 2017-2018 Dan Coney no longer with us he passed away I ran into him randomly in China and it was like what are you doing here he was with a bunch of Docker guys so they were already investing in so I knew that the cncf was a great Steward for this community because they were already doing the work Dan led a great team at that time and then they were they were they were kicking ass and they were just really setting the foundation they dig in they set the architecture perfectly so I knew that that was a moment that was going to be pretty powerful at the early days when we were talking about kubernetes before it even started we were always always talking about if this this could be the tcpip of of cloud then we could have kind of a de facto interoperability and Lou Tucker was working for Cisco at the time and we were called it interclouding inter-networking what that did during the the revolution Cloud yeah the revolution of the client server and PC Revolution was about connectivity and so tcpip was the disruptive enable that created massive amounts of wealth created a lot of companies created a whole generation of companies so I think this next inflection point is kind of happening right now I think kubernetes is one step of this abstraction layer but you start to see companies like snowflake who's built on AWS and then moved to multiple clouds Goldman Sachs Capital One you're going to see insurance companies so we believe that the rise of the super cloud is here that's going to be Cloud 3.0 that's software 3.0 it's software three what do you want to call it it's not yesterday's Cloud lift and shift and run a SAS application it's a true Enterprise digital digital transformation so that's that's kind of the trend that we see riding in now and so you know if you're not on that side of the street you're going to get washed away from that wave so it's going to be interesting to see how how it all plays out so it's fun to watch who's on the wrong side it is very fun I hope you all are listening to this really powerful advice from John he's dropping some serious knowledge bombs on us well holding the back for kubecon because we've got we got all the great guests coming on and that's where all the content comes from I mean the best part of the community is that they're sharing yeah absolutely so just for old time's sake and it's because it's how I met your fabulous team last year Define kubernetes for the audience kubernetes is like what someone said it was a magical Christmas I heard that was a well good explanation with that when I heard that one um you mean the technical definition or like the business definition or maybe both you can give us an interpretive dance if you'd like I mean the simplest way to describe kubernetes is an orchestration layer that orchestrates containers that are containing applications and it's a way to keep things running and runtime assembly of like the of the data so if you've got you're running containers you can containerize applications kubernetes gives you that capability to run applications at scale which feeds into uh the development uh cycle of the pipelining of apps so if you're writing applications and you want to scale up it's a fast way to stand up massive amounts of scale using containers and kubernetes so a variety of other things that are in the in the in the system too so that was pretty good there's a lot more under the hood but that's the oversimplified version I think that's what we were going for I think it's actually I mean it's harder to oversimplify it sometimes in this case it connects it connects well it's the connective tissue between all the container applications yes last question for you John we are here at the cube we're very excited to be headed to Detroit very soon what can people expect from the cube at coupon this year so we'll be broadcasting Wednesday Thursday and Friday we'll be there early I'll be there Monday and Tuesday we'll do our normal kind of hanging around getting some scoop on the on the ground floor you'll see us there Monday and Tuesday probably in the in the lounge too um come up and say hi to us um again we're looking for more stories this year we believe this is the year that you're going to hear a lot more storytelling coming out of this community as people get more proof points so come up to us share your email your your handle give us yours give us your story we'll publish it we think we think this is going to be the year that cloud native developers start showing the signs of the of the rise of the supercloud that's going to come out of this this community so you know if you got something to say you know we're open to share stories so we're here all that speaking of John how can people say hi to you and the team on Twitter at Furrier at siliconangle at thecube thecube.net siliconangle.com LinkedIn Dave vellantis they were open on all channels all right signal Instagram WhatsApp perfect well pick your channel we really hope to hear from you John thank you so much for joining us for this preview session and thank you for tuning in my name is Savannah Peterson here in Palo Alto at thecube Studios looking forward to Detroit we can't wait to hear your thoughts do let us know in the comments and let us know if you're headed to Michigan cheers [Music] thank you

>>Welcome everyone to the cubes presentation of the AWS startup showcase open cloud innovations. This is season two episode one of the ongoing series and we're covering exciting and innovative startups from the AWS ecosystem. Today. We're going to focus on the open source community. I'm your host, Dave Vellante. And right now we're going to talk about open source security and mitigating risk in light of a recent discovery of a zero day flaw in log for J a Java logging utility and a related white house executive order that points to the FTC pursuing companies that don't properly secure consumer data as a result of this vulnerability and with me to discuss this critical issue and how to more broadly address software supply chain risk is Don Fisher. Who's the CEO of tide lift. Thank you for coming on the program, Donald. >>Thanks for having me excited to be here. Yeah, pleasure. >>So look, there's a lot of buzz. You open the news, you go to your favorite news site and you see this, you know, a log for J this is an, a project otherwise known as logged for shell. It's this logging tool. My understanding is it's, it's both ubiquitous and very easy to exploit. Maybe you could explain that in a little bit more detail. And how do you think this vulnerability is going to affect things this year? >>Yeah, happy to, happy to dig in a little bit in orient around this. So, you know, just a little definitions to start with. So log for J is a very widely used course component that's been around for quite a while. It's actually an amazing piece of technology log for J is used in practically every serious enterprise Java application over the last 10 going on 20 years. So it's, you know, log for J itself is fantastic. The challenge that organization organizations have been facing relate to a specific security vulnerability that was discovered in log for J and that has been given this sort of brand's name as it happens these days. Folks may remember Heartbleed around the openness to sell vulnerability some years back. This one has been dubbed logged for shell. And the reason why it was given that name is that this is a form of security vulnerability that actually allows attackers. >>You know, if a system is found that hasn't been patched to remediate it, it allows hackers to get full control of a, of a system of a server that has the software running on it, or includes this log for J component. And that means that they can do anything. They can access, you know, private customer data on that system, or really do anything and so-called shell level access. So, you know, that's the sort of definitions of what it is, but the reason why it's important is in the, in the small, you know, this is a open door, right? It's a, if, if organizations haven't patched this, they need to respond to it. But one of the things that's kind of, you know, I think important to recognize here is that this log for J is just one of literally thousands of independently created open source components that flow into the applications that almost every organization built and all of them all software is going to have security vulnerabilities. And so I think that log for J is, has been a catalyst for organizations to say, okay, we've got to solve this specific problem, but we all also have to think ahead about how is this all gonna work. If our software supply chain originates with independent creators across thousands of projects across the internet, how are we going to put a better plan in place to think ahead to the next log for J log for shell style incident? And for sure there will be more >>Okay. So you see this incident as a catalyst to maybe more broadly thinking about how to secure the, the digital supply chain. >>Absolutely. Yeah, it's a, this is proving a point that, you know, a variety of folks have been making for a number of years. Hey, we depend, I mean, honestly these days more than 70% of most applications, most custom applications are comprised of this third party open source code. Project's very similar in origin and governance to log for J that's just reality. It's actually great. That's an amazing thing that the humans collaborating on the internet have caused to be possible that we have this rich comments of open source software to build with, but we also have to be practical about it and say, Hey, how are we going to work together to make sure that that software as much as possible is vetted to ensure that it meets commercial standards, enterprise standards ahead of time. And then when the inevitable issues arise like this incident around the log for J library, that we have a great plan in place to respond to it and to, you know, close the close the door on vulnerabilities when they, when they show up. >>I mean, you know, when you listen to the high level narrative, it's easy to point fingers at organizations, Hey, you're not doing enough now. Of course the U S government has definitely made attempts to emphasize this and, and shore up in, in, in, in, in push people to shore up the software supply chain, they've released an executive order last may, but, but specifically, I mean, it's just a complicated situation. So what steps should organizations really take to make sure that they don't fall prey to these future supply chain attacks, which, you know, are, as you pointed out are inevitable. >>Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a great point that you make that the us federal government has taken proactive steps starting last year, 2021 in the fallout of the solar winds breach, you know, about 12 months ago from the time that we're talking, talking here, the U S government actually was a bit ahead of the game, both in flagging the severity of this, you know, area of concern and also directing organizations on how to respond to it. So the, in May, 2021, the white house issued an executive order on cybersecurity and it S directed federal agencies to undertake a whole bunch of new measures to ensure the security of different aspects of their technology and software supply chain specifically called out open source software as an area where they put, you know, hard requirements around federal agencies when they're acquiring technology. And one of the things that the federal government that the white house cybersecurity executive order directed was that organizations need to start with creating a list of the third-party open source. >>That's flowing into their applications, just that even have a table of contents or an index to start working with. And that's, that's called a, a software bill of materials or S bomb is how some people pronounce that acronym. So th the federal government basically requires federal agencies to now create Nessbaum for their applications to demand a software bill of materials from vendors that are doing business with the government and the strategy there has been to expressly use the purchasing power of the us government to level up industry as a whole, and create the necessary incentives for organizations to, to take this seriously. >>You know, I, I feel like the solar winds hack that you mentioned, of course it was widely affected the government. So we kind of woke them up, but I feel like it was almost like a stuck set Stuxnet moment. Donald were very sophisticated. I mean, for the first time patches that were supposed to be helping us protect, now we have to be careful with them. And you mentioned the, the bill of its software, bill of materials. We have to really inspect that. And so let's get to what you guys do. How do you help organizations deal with this problem and secure their open source software supply chain? >>Yeah, absolutely happy to tell you about, about tide lift and, and how we're looking to help. So, you know, the company, I co-founded the company with a couple of colleagues, all of whom are long-term open source folks. You know, I've been working in around commercializing open source for the last 20 years that companies like red hat and, and a number of others as have my co-founders the opportunity that we saw is that, you know, while there have been vendors for some of the traditional systems level, open source components and stacks like Linux, you know, of course there's red hat and other vendors for Linux, or for Kubernetes, or for some of the databases, you know, there's standalone companies for these logs, for shell style projects, there just hasn't been a vendor for them. And part of it is there's a challenge to cover a really vast territory, a typical enterprise that we inspect has, you know, upwards of 10,000 log for shell log for J like components flowing into their application. >>So how do they get a hand around their hands around that challenge of managing that and ensuring it needs, you know, reasonable commercial standards. That's what tide lifts sets out to do. And we do it through a combination of two elements, both of which are fairly unique in the market. The first of those is a purpose-built software solution that we've created that keeps track of the third-party open source, flowing into your applications, inserts itself into your DevSecOps tool chain, your developer tooling, your application development process. And you can kind of think of it as next to the point in your release process, where you run your unit test to ensure the business logic in the code that your team is writing is accurate and sort of passes tests. We do a inspection to look at the state of the third-party open source packages like Apache log for J that are flowing into your, into your application. >>So there's a software element to it. That's a multi-tenant SAS service. We're excited to be partnered with, with AWS. And one of the reasons why we're here in this venue, talking about how we are making that available jointly with AWS to, to drink customers deploying on AWS platforms. Now, the other piece of the, of our solution is really, really unique. And that's the set of relationships that Tyler has built directly with these independent open source maintainers, the folks behind these open source packages that organizations rely on. And, you know, this is where we sort of have this idea. Somebody is making that software in the first place, right? And so would those folks be interested? Could we create a set of aligned incentives to encourage them, to make sure that that software meets a bunch of enterprise standards and areas around security, like, you know, relating to the log for J vulnerability, but also other complicated parts of open source consumption like licensing and open source license, accuracy, and compatibility, and also maintenance. >>Like if somebody looking after the software going forward. So just trying to basically invite open source creators, to partner with us, to level up their packages through those relationships, we get really, really clean, clear first party data from the folks who create, maintain the software. And we can flow that through the tools that I described so that end organizations can know that they're building with open source components that have been vetted to meet these standards, by the way, there's a really cool side effect of this business model, which is that we pay these open source maintainers to do this work with us. And so now we're creating a new income stream around what previously had been primarily a volunteer activity done for impact in this universe of open source software. We're helping these open source maintainers kind of GoPro on an aspect of what they do around open source. And that means they can spend more time applying more process and tools and methodology to making that open source software even better. And that's good for our customers. And it's good for everyone who relies on open source software, which is really everyone in society these days. That's interesting. I >>Was going to ask you what's their incentive other than doing the right thing. Can you give us an example of, of maybe a example of an open source maintainer that you're working with? >>Yeah. I mean, w we're working with hundreds of open source maintainers and a few of the key open source foundations in different areas across JavaScript, Java PHP, Ruby python.net, and, you know, like examples of categories of projects that we're working with, just to be clear, are things like, you know, web frameworks or parser libraries or logging libraries, like a, you know, log for J and all the other languages, right? Or, you know, time and date manipulation libraries. I mean, they, these are sort of the, you know, kind of core building blocks of applications and individually, they, you know, they may seem like, you know, maybe a minor, a minor thing, but when you multiply them across how many applications these get used in and log for J is a really, really clarifying case for folks to understand this, you know, what can seemingly a small part of your overall application estate can have disproportionate impact on, on your operations? As we saw with many organizations that spent, you know, a weekend or a week, or a large part of the holidays, scrambling to patch and remediate this, a single vulnerability in one of those thousands of packages in that case log. >>Okay, got it. So you have this two, two headed, two vectors that I'm going to call it, your ecosystem, your relationship with these open source maintainers is kind of a, that just didn't happen overnight, and it develop those relationships. And now you get first party data. You monetize that with a software service that is purpose built as the monitor of the probe that actually tracks that third, third party activity. So >>Exactly right. Got it. >>Okay. So a lot of companies, Donald, I mean, this is, like I said before, it's a complicated situation. You know, a lot of people don't have the skillsets to deal with this. And so many companies just kind of stick their head in the sand and, you know, hope for the best, but that's not a great strategy. What are the implications for organizations if they don't really put the tools and processes into place to manage their open source, digital supply chain. >>Yeah. Ignoring the problem is not a viable strategy anymore, you know, and it's just become increasingly clear as these big headline incidents that happened like Heartbleed and solar winds. And now this logged for shell vulnerability. So you can, you can bet on that. Continuing into the future and organizations I think are, are realizing the ones that haven't gotten ahead of this problem are realizing this is a critical issue that they need to address, but they have help, right. You know, the federal government, another action beyond that cybersecurity executive order that was directed at federal agencies early last year, just in the last week or so, the FTC of the U S federal trade commission has made a much more direct warning to private companies and industry saying that, you know, issues like this log for J vulnerability risk exposing private, you know, consumer data. That is one of the express mandates of the FTC is to avoid that the FTC has said that this is, you know, bears on both the federal trade commission act, as well as the Gramm-Leach-Bliley act, which relates to consumer data privacy. >>And the FTC just came right out and said it, they said they cited the $700 million settlements that Equifax was subject to for their data breach that also related to open source component, by the way, that that had not been patched by, by Equifax. And they said the FTC intents to use its full legal authority to pursue companies that failed to take reasonable steps, to protect consumer data from exposure as a result of log for J or similar known vulnerabilities in the future. So the FTC is saying, you know, this is a critical issue for consumer privacy and consumer data. We are going to enforce against companies that do not take reasonable precautions. What are reasonable precautions? I think it's kind of a mosaic of solutions, but I'm glad to say tide lift is contributing a really different and novel solution to the mix that we hope will help organizations contend with this and avoid that kind of enforcement action from FTC or other regulators. >>Well, and the good news is that you can tap a tooling like tide lift in the cloud as a service and you know, much easier today than it was 10 or 15 years ago to, to resolve, or at least begin to demonstrate that you're taking action against this problem. >>Absolutely. There's new challenges. Now I'm moving into a world where we build on a foundation of independently created open source. We need new solutions and new ideas, and that's a, you know, that's part of what we're, we're, we're showing up with from the tide lift angle, but there's many other elements that are going to be necessary to provide the full solution around securing the open source supply chain going forward. >>Well, Donald Fisher of tide lift, thanks so much for coming to the cube and best of luck to your organization. Thanks for the good work that you guys do. >>Thanks, Dave. Really appreciate your partnership on this, getting the word out and yeah, thanks so much for today. >>Very welcome. And you are watching the AWS startup showcase open cloud innovations. Keep it right there for more action on the cube, your leader in enterprise tech coverage.

>>from around the globe. >>It's the cube with coverage of Kublai khan and cloud Native >>Con, Europe 2021 Virtual >>brought to you by >>red hat, cloud >>Native Computing foundation >>and ecosystem partners. >>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of coupon 21 cloud native con 21 part of the C N C s annual event this year. It's Virtual. Again, I'm john Kerry host of the cube and we have two great guests from the C N C. F. Cheryl Hung VP of ecosystems and Katie Manji who's the ecosystem advocate for C N C F. Thanks for coming on. Great to see you. I wish we were in person soon, maybe in the fall. Cheryl Katie, thanks for coming on. >>Um, definitely hoping to be back in person again soon, but john great to see you and great to be back on the >>cube. You know, I have to say one of the things that really surprised me is the resilience of the community around what's been happening with the virtual in the covid. Actually, a lot of people have been, um, you know, disrupted by this, but you know, the consensus is that developers have used to been working remotely and virtually in a home and so not too much disruption, but a hell of a lot of productivity. You're seeing a lot more cloud native, um, projects, you're seeing a lot more mainstreaming and the enterprise, you're starting to see cloud growth, just a really kind of nice growth. And we've been saying for years, rising tide floats, all boats, Cheryl, but this year you're starting to see real mainstream adoption with cloud native and this has really been part of the work of the community you guys have done. So what's your take on this? Because we're going to be coming out of this Covid pretty soon. There's a post covid light at the end of the tunnel. What's your view? >>Yeah, definitely, fingers crossed on that. I mean, I would love Katie to give her view on this. In fact, because she came from Conde Nast and American Express, both huge companies that were adopting have adopted cloud Native successfully. And then in the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of Covid, she joined CN CF. So Katie really has a view from the trenches and Katie would love to hear your thoughts. >>Yeah, absolutely. Uh, definitely cloud native adoption when it comes to the tooling has been more permanent in the enterprises. And that has been confirmed of my role at American Express. That is the role I moved from towards C N C F. But the more surprising thing is that we see big companies, we see banks and financial organization that are looking to adopt open source. But more importantly, they're looking for ways to either contribute or actually to direct it more into these areas. So from that perspective, I've been pretty much at the nucleus of enterprise of the adoption of cloud Native is definitely moving, it's slow paced, but it's definitely forward moving as well. Um and now I think while I'm in the role with C N C F as an ecosystem advocate and leading the end user community, there has been definitely uh the community is growing um always intrigued to find out more about the cloud Native usage is one of the things that I find quite intriguing is the fact that not one cloud native usage, like usage of covering just one platform, which is going to be called, the face is going to be the same. So it's always intriguing to find new use cases, find those extremist cases as well, that it really pushes the community forward. >>I want to do is unpack. The end user aspect of this has been a hallmark of the CNC F for years, always been a staple of the organization. But this year, more than ever it's been, seems to be prominent as people are integrating in what about the growth? I mean from last year this year and the use and user ecosystem, how have you guys seen the growth? Is there any highlights because have any stats and or observations around how the ecosystem is growing around the end user piece? >>Sure, absolutely. I mean, I can talk directly about C N C F and the C N C F. End user community, much like everything else, you know, covid kind of slowed things down, so we're kind of not entirely surprised by that, But we're still going over 2020 and in fact just in the last few months have brought in some really, really big names like Peloton, Airbnb, Citibank, um, just some incredible organizations who are, who have really adopted card native, who have seen the success and the benefits of it. And now we're looking to give back to the community, as Katie said, get involved with open source and be more than just a passive consumer of the technologies, but actually become leaders in their own right, >>Katie talk about the dynamic of developers that end user organizations. I mean, you have been there, you're now you've been on both sides of the table if you will not to the sides of the table, it's more like a round table if you will, but community driven. But traditional, uh, end user organizations, not the early adopters, not the hyper scale is, but the ones now are really embedding hybrid, um, are changing how I t to how modern applications being built. That's a big theme in these mainstream organizations. What's the dynamic going on? What's your view? >>I think for any organization, the kind of the core, what moves the organization towards cloud Native is um pretty much being ahead of your competitors. And now we have this mass of different organization of the cloud native and that's why we see more kind of ice towards this area. So um definitely in this perspective when it comes to the technology aspect, companies are looking to deploy complex application in an easier manner, especially when it comes to pushing them to production system securely faster. Um and continuously as well. They're looking to have this competitive edge when it comes to how can they quickly respond to customer feedback? And as well they're looking for this um hybrid element that has been, has been talked about. Again, we're talking about enterprise is not just about public cloud, it's about how can we run the application security and getting both an element of data centers or private cloud as well. And now we see a lot of projects which are balancing around that age but more importantly there is adoption and where there's adoption, there is a feedback loop and that's how which represents the organic growth. >>That's awesome. Cheryl like you to define what you mean when you say end user driven open source, what does that mean? >>Mm This is a really interesting dynamic that I've seen over the last couple of years. So what we see is that more and more of the open source project, our end users who who are solving their own problems and creating their own projects and donating these back to the community. An early example of this was Envoy and lift and Yeager from Uber but Spotify also recently donated backstage, which is a developer portal which has really taken off. We've also got examples from Intuit Donating Argo. Um I'm sure there are some others that I've just forgotten. But the really interesting thing I see about this is that class classically right. Maybe a few years ago, if you were an end user organization, you get involved through a vendor, you'd go to a red hat or something and say, hey, you fix this on my behalf because you know that's what I'm paying you to do. Whereas what I see now is and user saying we want to keep this expertise in house and we want to be owners of our own kind of direction and our own fate when it comes to these open source projects. And that's been a big driver for this trend of open source and user driven, open source. >>It's really the open model is just such a great thing. And I think one of the interesting thing is that fits in with a lot of people who want to work from mission driven companies, but here there's actually a business benefit as you pointed out as in terms of the dynamic of bringing stuff to the community. This is interesting. I'm sure that the ability to do more collaboration, um, either hiring or contributing kind of increases when you have this end user dynamic because that's a pretty big decision to donate and bring something into the open source. What's the playbook though? If I'm sitting in an end user organization like american express Katie or a big company, say, hey, you know, we really developed this really killer use cases niche to us, but we want to bring it to the community. What do they do? Is there like a, like a manager? Do they knock on someone's door? Zara repo is, I mean, how does someone, I mean, how does an end user get this done? >>Mm. Um, I think one of the best resources out there is called the to do group, which is a organization underneath the Linux foundation. So it's kind of a sister group to C N C F, which is about open source program offices. And how do you formalize such an open source program? Because it's pretty easy to say, oh well just put something on get hub. But that's not the end of the story, right? Um, if you want to actually build a community, if you want other people to contribute, then you do actually have to do more than just drop it and get up and walk away. So I would say that if you are an end user company and you have created something which scratches your own itch and you think other people could benefit from it then definitely come. And like you could email me, you could email Chris and chick who is the ceo of C N C F and just get in touch and sort of ask around about what are the things that you could do in terms of what you have to think about the licensing, How do you develop a community governance program, um, trademark issues, all of these things. >>It's interesting how open source is growing so much now, chris has got so much action going on. New verticals are opening up, you know, so, so much action Cheryl you had posted on the internet predictions for cloud native, which I found interesting because there's so much action going on, you have to break things out into pillars, tech devops and ecosystem, each one kind of with a slew event of key trends. So take us through the mindset, why break it out like that? You got tech devops and ecosystem tradition that was all kind of bundled in one. Why? Why the pillars? And is it because there's so much action, what's, what's the basis behind the prediction? >>Um so originally this was just a giant list of things I had seen from talking to people and reading around and seeing what people are talking about on social media. Um And when, once I invested at these 10, I thought about what, what does this actually mean for the people who are going to look at this list and what should they care about? So I see tech trends as things related to tools, frameworks. Um, perhaps architects I see develops as people who are more as a combination of process, things that a combination of process and people and culture best practices and then ecosystem was kind of anything else broader than that. Things that happened across organizations. So you can definitely go to my twitter, you can go to at boy Chevelle, O I C H E R Y L and take a look at this and This is my list of 10. I would love to hear from you whether you agree with it, whether you think there are other things that I've missed or what would your >>table. I love. I love the top. Well, first of all I think this is very relevant. The one that I would ask you on is more rust and cloud native. That's the number one item. Um, I think cross cloud is definitely totally happening, I think people are really starting to think about that and so I'd love to get your comments on that. But I think the thing that jumped out at me was the devops piece because this is a trend that I've been seeing a lot more certainly even in academic institutions, for folks in school, right? Um going to college for computer science and engineering. This idea of, sorry, large scale, cloud is not so much an IT practice, it's much more of a cloud native mindset. So I think this idea of of ops so much more about scale. I use SRE only because I can't think of a better word around it and certainly the edge pieces with kubernetes, I think this is the, I think the biggest story to me that's where all the action seems to be when I talk to people around what they're working on in terms of training new people on boarding and what not Katie, you're shaking your head, you're like Yeah, what's your thoughts? Yeah, >>I have definitely been uh through all of these stages from having a team where the develops, I think it's more of a culture of like a pattern to adopt within an organization more than anything. So I've been pre develops within develops and actually during the evolution of it where we actually added an s every team as well. Um I think having these cultural changes with an organization, they are necessary, especially they want to iterate iterate quicker and actually deliver value to the customers with minimal agency because what it actually does there is the collaboration between teams which were initially segregated. And that's why I think there is a paradigm nowadays which is called deficit ops, which actually moves security more to its left. This has been very popular, especially in the, in the latest a couple of months. Lots of talks around it and even there is like a security co located event of Yukon just going to focus on that mainly. Um, but as well within the Devil's area, um, one of the models that has been quite permanent has been get ups as well, which pretty much uses the power of gIT repositories to describe the state of the applications, how it actually should be within the production system and within the cloud native ecosystem. There are two main tools that pretty much leave this area and there's going to be Argo City which has been donated by, into it, which is our end user And we have flux as well, which has been donated by we've works and both of these projects currently are within the incubation stage, which pretty much by default um showcases there is a lot of adoption from the organizations um more than 100 of for for some of them. So there is a wider adoption um, and everything I would like to mention is the get ups working group which has emerged I think between que con europe and north America last year and that again is more to define a manifest of how exactly get expert and should be adopted within organizations. So there is a lot of, I would say initiatives and this is further out they confirmed with the tooling that we have within the ecosystem. >>That's really awesome insight. I want to just, if you don't mind follow up on that, why is getups so important right now, Is it because the emphasis of security is that the emphasis of more scale, Is it just because it's pretty much kid was okay just because storing it over there, Is it because there's so much more inspections are going on around it? I mean code reviews have been going on for a long time. What's what's the big deal? Why is it so hot right now? In your opinion? >>I think there is definitely a couple of aspects that are quite important. You mentioned security, that's definitely one of them with the get ups battery. And there is a pool model rather than a push model. So you have the actual tool, for example, our great city of flux watching for repository and if any changes are identified is going to pull those changes automatically. So the first thing that we actually can see from this model is that we always will have a delta between what's within our depositors and the production system. Usually if you have a pool model, you can pull it uh can push the changes towards death staging environment but not always the production because you have the change window sometimes with the get ups model, you'll always be aware of what's the Dell. Can you have quite a nice way to visualize that especially for your city, which has the UI as well as well with the get ups pattern, there is less necessity to share the credentials with the actual pipeline tool. All of because Argo flux there are natively build around communities, all the secrets are going to be residing within the cluster. There is no need to share any extra credentials or an extra permissions with external tools as well. There are scale, there is again with kids who have historical data points which allows us to easily revert um to stable points of the applications in the past. So multiple, multiple benefits I would say, but definitely secured. I think it's one of the main one and it has been talked about quite a lot as well. >>A lot of these end user stories revolve around these dynamics and the ones you guys are promoting and from your members as well as in the community at large is I hate to use the word day two operations, but that really is the issue like okay, we're up and running. I want more automation. This is again tops kind of vibe here where it's like okay we gotta go troubleshoot all this, but it should be working as more stuff comes in. This becomes more and more the dynamic is that is that because of just more edges, more things, more devices, what's what's the what's the push behind all these stories around this automation and day to operation things? What do you guys think? >>I think, I think the expectations are getting higher and higher to be honest, a few years ago it was enough to use containers and start using the barest minimum, you know, to orchestrate those containers. But now what we see is that, you know, it's easy to choose the technology, it's easy to install it and even configure it. But as you said, john those data operations are really, really hard. For example, one of the ones that we've seen up and coming and we care about from CNCF is kubernetes on the edge. And we see this as enabling telco use cases and 5G and IOT and really, really broad, difficult use cases that just a few years ago would have been nice on impossible, Katie, your zone, Katie Katie, you also talk about edge. Right? >>Absolutely. I think I I really like to watch some of the talks that keep going, especially given by the big organizations that have to manage thousands or tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of customers. And they have to deliver a cluster to these to these teams. Now, from their point of view, they pretty much have to manage clusters at scale. There is definitely the edge out there and they really kind of pushing the technology towards how can we get closer to the physical devices within the customers? Kind of uh, let's say bubble or area in surface. So age has been definitely something which has been moving a lot when it comes to the cloud native ecosystem. We've had a lot of projects moving to towards the incubation stage, carefree as has been there, um, for for a while and again, has a lot of adoption is known for its stability. But another thing that I would like to mention is that now currently we have a lot of projects that are age focus but within some box, so there is again, a lot of potential if there's gonna be a higher demand for this, I would expect this tools move from sandbox to incubation and even graduation. So that's definitely something which, uh, it's moving and there is dynamism around it. >>Well, Cheryl kid, you guys are awesome, love the work you're doing. I gotta ask the final question since you brought it up about the expectations. Cheryl, if you guys could both end the segment with the comment around expectations as the industry and companies and developers and participants continue to grow. What, what's changed with C N C F koo Kahne cloud, native khan as the expectation has been growing and the stakes are higher too, frankly, I mean you've got security, you mentioned these things edge get up, so you start to see the maturation of this ecosystem, what's new and what's expected of you guys, What do you see and how are you guys organizing? >>I think we can definitely say the ecosystem has matured a lot compared to a few years ago. Same with CNTF, same with Cuba con, I think the very first cubic on I went to was Berlin, which was about 1800 people. Um, the kind of mind boggling to see how much, how much it's grown since then. I mean one of the things that we try and do is to expand the number of people who can reach the community. So for example, we launched kubernetes community days and we launched, that means community organized events in africa, for example, for people who couldn't come to large events in north America or europe, um we also launching things to help students. I actually love talking to students because quite often now you talk to them and they say, oh, I've never run software in anything other than a container. You're like, yeah, well this was a new thing, this is brand new a few years ago and now you can be 18 and have never tried anything else. So it's pretty amazing. But yeah, there's definitely, there's always space to go to the community. >>Yeah, once you go cloud native, it's like, you know, like you've never load Lennox on them server before. I mean, what, what's going on? Get your thoughts as expectations go higher And certainly there's more in migration, not only for young folks because they're jumping into this was that engineering meets computer science is now cross discipline. You're seeing scale, you mentioned scaling up those are huge factors, you've got younger, you got cross training, you got cybersecurity and you've got Fin tech ops that's chris is working on so much is happening. What, what, what you guys keep up with your, how you gonna raise the ball? >>Absolutely. I think there's definitely technology moving forward, but I think nowadays there is a more need for actual end user stories while at the beginning of cube cons there is a lot of focus on the technical aspects. How can you fix this particular problem of deploying between two clusters are deploying at scale. There is like a lot of technical aspects nowadays they're looking for the stories because as I mentioned before, not one platform is gonna be the same when it comes to cloud native and I think there's still, the community is still trying to look for some patterns or some standards and we actually can see like especially when it comes to the open standards, we can see this moving within um the observe abilities like that application delivery will have for example cross plane and Que Bella we have open metrics and open tracing as well, which focuses on observe ability and all of the interfaces that we had around um, Cuban directory service men and so forth. All of these pretty much try to bring a benchmark, making it easier to integrate these special use cases um when it comes to actual extreme technology kind of solutions that you need to provide and um, I was mentioning the end user stories that are there more in demand nowadays mainly because these are very, very necessary from the community like for example the six or the project maintainers, they require feedback to actually move forward. And as part of that, I would like to mention that we've recently soft launched the injuries lounge, which really focuses on this particular aspect of end user stories. We try to pretty much question our end users and really understand what really moved them to adopt, coordinative, what keeps them on this path and what like future challenges they would like to um to tackle or are they facing the moment I would like to solve in the future. So we're trying to create the speed back home between the inducers and the projects out there. So I think this is something which needs to be a bit more closely together these two spheres, which currently are segregated, but we're trying to just solve that. >>Also you guys do great work, great job. Cheryl wrap us up real, take a minute to put a plug in for the C. N. C. F. In the ecosystem. What's the fashion this year? What's hot? What's the trend? What are you guys doing? Share some quick update on what's going on the ecosystem from your perspective? >>Yeah, I mean the ecosystem, even though I just said that we're maturing, you know, the growth has not stopped now, what we're seeing is these as Casey was saying, you know, more specific use cases, even bigger, even more demanding environments, even more kind of crazy use cases. I mean I love the story from the U. S. Department of Defense about putting kubernetes on their fighter jets and putting ston fighter jets, you know, it's just absurd to think about it, but I would say definitely come and be part of the community, share your stories, share what you know, help other people um if you are end user of these technologies then go to see NCF dot io slash and user and just come and be part of our community, you know, meet your peers and hear what everybody else is doing >>well. Having kubernetes and stu on jets, that's the Air Force, I would call that technical edge Katie to you know, bring, bring back the edge carol kitty, thank you so much for sharing the inside ecosystem is robust. Rising tide is floating all the boats as we always say here in the cube, it's been great to watch and continue to watch the rise. I think it's just the beginning, we're starting to see post pandemic visibility cloud native, more standards, more visibility into the economics and value and great to see the ecosystem rising up with the end users as well. So congratulations and thanks for coming up. >>Thank you so much, john it's a pleasure, appreciate >>it. Thank you for having us, john >>Great to have you on. I'm john for with the cube here for Coop Con Cloud, Native Con 21 virtual soon we'll be back in real life. Thanks for watching. Mhm.

>> live from San Francisco, celebrating 10 years of high tech coverage. It's the Cube covering Veum World 2019. Brought to you by IBM Wear and its ecosystem partners. >> Welcome to our live coverage here in Mosconi North Lobby, Of'em World 2019. I'm John for a Student and a Volante celebrating our 10th VM World or 10 years of covering the M world. Dave's stew. What a run been Go back across Mosconi South 10 years ago with the green set. This is 10 years later. 10:10 p.m. World BMC Rule No longer the show, so that kind of folds in the Dell Technologies Man, The world's changed. Pat Nelson had just delivered his keynote as CEO Sanjay Poon and a CEO came on talk to customers stew. A lot of acquisitions, a lot of cloud native, a lot of cloud. 2.0, this is turning into VM. Wear 2.0, where vm zehr kind of only one part of the equation. So let's jump into the analysis, Dave. I mean, you put out some killer research on silken angle dot com, and we keep on dot com around customer spend still, we put out a lot of analysis on all the key trends that Vienna was playing into. Cloud two point. Oh, is what we're calling it. It's enterprise Cloud of fresh scale Day. What? What? What? What do you want? Your analysis, Latino >> John, when you go back. 10 VM Worlds ago, it was all about virtualization, completely changing the deployment dynamics. When when I first saw a VM deployed, I went, Oh, my God, This is gonna change everything. And it did. But while compared to now what's happening with cloud and a I we heard so much about five g. It was also the big, big difference in the ecosystem. Back when e. M. C owned VM wearing 2010 there was that sort of Chinese wall stew. You were working there, you know, just before that. And there wasn't a lot of, you know, swapping of I P, if you will. They were sort of treating them as unequal player to net app and everybody else out there. Tod Nielsen used to say, for every dollar spent on of'em were licensed, 15 spent an ecosystem. You don't hear that kind of narrative anymore, you hear we're crushing the HC. I vendor where number one basically a sort of backhand to Nutanix We heard on the on the keynote Very tight integration VX rail project Dimension So much, much tighter integration since Pat Tell Singer joined VM. Where from the emcee lots has changed >> will be a lot of research on reporting leading up to the show around Cloud two point. Oh, I'll see Dev. Ops is willing to home of the dimension on enterprise scale, the number of acquisitions of'em wears made and then, boom. They dropped two monsters on the table or the 11th hour pivotal for 2.7 billion carbon black for 2.1 billion. Lot of stories in those AK was other acquisitions, your analysis and how that played out today on the >> Kino. As Dave said when we started coming to this event back in 2010 you know, the virtual machine was the center of the universe. What were these servers that it lived on, how to storage and network and get fixed to be ableto live in that environment And the keynote. It was a lot of cloud, you know, John, we brought in a lot of the Cloud camp people that first year and some people were like, Why are we talking about Cloud? This is VM World, and we're like, Well, this is the future. And today we're not talking about V EMS at the center we're talking about containers were talking about cloud native applications, that multi cloud world absolutely something that pack l singer did. Front center actually felt it almost glossed over a little bit of the H C, I and NSX and all these wonderful things. Sure, there was some big del pieces in there. The M word cloud on Delhi emcee the Del Di are, you know, data protection, power protect, you know, into the VM where peace something that you definitely would not have seen under the old emcee Federation model. So Michael Dell, absolutely having his strong footprint here. Dave's done a lot of analysis talking about things like Pivotal getting pulled in and like so many different acquisitions, Pivotal came out of'em wear and, you know, carbon black Boston based companies so many different pieces here to get them talking about applications and where Veum, where the company sits in this multi cloud world where they're trying to be, you know, maintain their relationship with us. >> Let's get into the analysis on the whole ecosystems. I really want to dig into the work. Dave, you didn't and the team did. But let's go through the keynote first. So my personal opinion was it felt like, um, I'll give him a C plus Pat because it just didn't have a lot of meat. In my opinion, it felt like it was too much tech for good, although super important to have that mission driven stuff I think is really valuable as the market tends to look >> at tech >> as bad actors. I thought that was addressing. That was a positive thing, but it felt too much. I didn't see a lot of specifics. It felt do is and David, if they were hiding something, they were putting a lot of it didn't seem like there's a lot of substance coming out specifically around how Kubernetes was going to be impacted. Specifically, how Cooper is going to sit within the VM where ecosystem products specifically I just didn't feel like the product side was there. >> Well, you know what? I'll say it, John and General, I agree with you because Day one usually is here is the company vision. And if the vision is kubernetes, well, we've been hearing kubernetes for a bunch of years. Kubernetes is not the answer. Kubernetes is an enable ionizing technology job. Ada, who we up on stage? You know, we had him on the Cuban. He's like, look committed. This is not a magic layer. It's this thin layer that's gonna help us go between clouds. Getting into some of their future projects is something I usually would expect on Day two, the vision of V. M. Whereas a company, it feels like we're in that transition from who do you want a big tech for? Good? That that's great stuff. You know, Pat has a long history of talking about, you know, that moral compass that he has and wants the company to live. That which is a good change from many of the Silicon Valley companies. But, you know, I didn't get a strong feel for their vision and it was not >> a conservative. They didn't want to actually put a position down there because I think everyone in the hallway that I talked to wants to know how Cooper is gonna impact the sphere for instance, is gonna change the makeup of the sphere. And what's the impact on the product side the head that stat about bare metal being 8%. I was like, a little bit biased. Maybe there, So are they. They tiptoeing. Dave, you think? I mean, the spend numbers show that if you could just hold the line for 24 months and the new trends won't take away from that license, I mean, is it a tactical thing? Or do you think that here's the >> thing? I want to go back? I do want to give'em where? Props on one thing and you've used this term to If you go back to 8 4009 Paul Maritz talked about. We're building the software mainframe and passed them pretty consistent about that they used, they said, Any workload, any app? What's different today than back then is, he said, any workload, any up any cloud. Really. Cloud wasn't as much of a factor back then, but that vision has been fairly consistent it to you. Answer your question, Veum. We're spending remains strong, you know they're spending data that we shared with the GT R on silicon angle yesterday and today is that 41% of the VM were installed. Base is going to spend Maurine the second half of 2019 and only 7% are going to spend less. Okay, that's a real positive. But at the same time, the data clearly shows that cloud is negatively impacting VM wear spend and so that's a real threat. So multi club Pat said today technologists who Master Master Multi Cloud will own the next decade. He's talking to his audience. I'm not sure I agree with that. How much you're mastering Multi Cloud is what's gonna be the determining factor to own the next decade. >> Well, I'm stumped. Stick with my position. That multi cloud is not a reality. I think it's really more overhyped, and our actually just started to be hyped and probably will be then over hypes. And then seven years from now we'll start seeing multiple clouds truly interoperable. But I think multi cloud is we find on the Cuba simply enterprises have multiple vendors and multiple environments that happen to be those vendors have cloud, so I don't think it actually is an operating model yet. But again, just like on the Cube 2012 stew. We talked about hybrid Cloud. I called. I asked, yes. When was it a halfway house of the weigh station? He had a connection. >> So gassy. So, John, here's what I say. Number one is customers today absolutely have multiple clouds. But for multi cloud, to be a reality multi cloud must be greater than the sum of just the piece is that it's made up today and absolutely were not there. Today. VM wear has a strong reason why it should be at the center of that discussion. But they're gonna be right at loggerheads with Red Hat and Microsoft and Google and Cisco in that kind of debate at the multi cloud >> and we had, we had a story on our special report on silicon angle dot com. Check it out. It's called Coping With Multi Cloud. Were coping was by design. Coping as a mechanism used to deal with uncertainty. Coping strategies is what CEOs are going to deal with. But read that post. But in it I kind of see. I mean, I kind of agree and disagree. We have two perspectives, Dave developing. You want to get your thoughts butts do on this C I ose that come from a traditional I t background tend to like multi vendor things because they know they don't want lock. And they're afraid if you then swing to the progressive side si SOS, for instance, who are have a gun to their head in terms of security, they're all saying no, we're betting on one cloud and we'll have backup clouds, but our development staff is gonna build stacks. Have AP eyes, and we'll share those AP ice to our suppliers. Cloud vendors are saying Support our specs. So to spectrums the old school I t. Guys saying Multi vendor equals multi cloud. And then then, on the other end, See says to say, I'm gonna build technology and build a stack, exposed FBI's and let the clouds support my my tooling that not the other way around your thoughts. I >> pulled a quote in my piece That's on Silicon angle as well. From David. If lawyer and he was defining a hybrid multi cloud, he said, any application of application service can run on any note of the hybrid cloud without rewriting re compiling a re testing. My argument would be you're never gonna have that North Star without a high degree of homogeneity. And there's three examples of high degrees of homogeneity in hybrid Cloud. Today it's azure stack. It's clouded customer, and it's outposts. You're so this idea that we're gonna have this diverse set of clouds and yet they're all gonna run is one to me. I ask, Is it technically feasible? And is it Is it practical? >> Well, Steve, Steve Harry was on his Hey had announced the signal. FX has come. Portfolio can be sold on a big deal to split when he was on The Cube with me last week and he said one of them looking back on the 10 years that 1 may be M where great was virtual ization allowed for massive efficiencies and improvements without rewriting the apse. The question today's point is, is that a reality? Can what's next? So that that next gain that's not gonna require people to rewrite their APs >> well and that actually not rewriting the axes where VM or has its strength. Because, you know, I I made a joke during the keynote. It was like you have a V M insert magic. Congratulations. You now have a cloud workload because I just did. VM were cloud and it's the same app. But on the other hand, that's actually been my biggest dig on V M. Where is the long pole? In the tent and modernization is modernizing wraps. And that is that Tom Zoo that Veum were announced. They're taking bit Nami and pivotal because we do need to modernize the application. If you have an application, you've been running long enough that your users are complaining about it. We need to modernize that. VM wear has not been much of enabler of that pivotal. Yes, absolutely. That's what the cloud Foundry Labs, the pivotal Labs has been doing for years. It is a tough thing to do. That's what the developers we hear it Amazon. They're building new abs. I don't hear modern building new app at VM where, but they are moving in that >> direct question for you guys and John you in particular, but also used to as well followed AWS probably more closely than any two people I know, Pat said. Strength, lies and differences, not similarities. I've noted many differences in philosophy between A. W S and V M. where they're both winning in the market place. We know a divorce is growing much faster, but a divorce doesn't believe in multi cloud. A Devil's doesn't believe security is broken. That's that's VM wears narrative VM where says it wants to be the best infrastructure and develop our software company. That's kind of like eight of us is the platform for that. They both want to be the security cloud, and and VM were said today they have 10,000 cloud data centers, and I'm guessing that Andy Jassy wouldn't think that many of those data centers are cloud data centers. Your thoughts on the differences between between A. W S s philosophy and VM wears narrative. And can they both? Is there enough market for them both to win? >> Well, it's strikingly different. I mean, AWS is just in a breed of its own. VM wears hedging and playing there their bets. They're kind of putting, you know, bets on each horse, right? Interesting enough in the cloud thing. There was no mention of Google Cloud. I didn't see that mentioned there. Andi was speculation. Wouldn't Oracle be great partnering with Google? That's not a rumor. I'm just kind of put it out there. That would be a good combination partnership, given the Oracle's cloud is failing miserably, I think v M. Where because of the operating leverage in the enterprise, has that operational layer down to me, Amazon is the model, the future, because they are clearly born with a dev ops mindset. They have an environment where developers can build applications and they could operate. It scale with all the efficiencies of operations. So I think cloud to foreigners were calling. It is all about having developers and operational excellence without a lot of disruption or re platforming. So I think that's where the differences are. You have company that have toe have to work with this world of legacy applications, and that requires first lift and shift, which doesn't become attractive. Then you add containers on the game changes. So I think container ization really was, I think, the seminal moment in the shift where where you got kubernetes and containers. So let the enterprise cloud. Native guys get in and have an operational framework that takes advantage of the horsepower of public cloud, which is computing storage, which is why we think networking and security will be the absolute focus areas for Cloud two point. Oh, and Amazon is just dominating the depth and the ops. And I don't think anyone is coming close. >> I'd love to hear your thoughts, too, but I just got caught. I don't think Oracles Cloud is failing miserably. I think it's I wouldn't say it that way. I think their infrastructures of service is irrelevant and the cloud is all about SAS. But just, you know, that's what I think. Waken debate that somebody >> has been great for the Oracle customers. But in terms of all metrics in terms of public and enterprise, cloud with multiple environments nonstarter. >> So there's a bit of a schism out there if you talk to customers. There are many customers when they deploy in Public Cloud, although uses, you know, compute storage and, like the identity management and that's it. And they'll stop and I talkto you con many customers that are using kubernetes so that if they want to hit the eject button, but they're all on Amazon today, so it's not like they're all fleeing Amazon or doing it. But we talked to lots of developers that are deep in aws they're using those service is they're using Lambda and they're building it. So how deep will they go? And that's where I look at this VM we're offering. And it's if I'm gonna take the sphere and extend that with kubernetes. I saw Cuba. Well, um, actually in the Twitter stream said it is, you know, cloud lock in to Dato is what we get if we do that. Because the whole reason VM were originally created called Foundry. So they didn't have to take that entire V's fear colonel and put it everywhere. So it's a nice bridge. That van, where has the partnership they have with AWS is a great strategy. But I still think it is a bridge to an ultimate solution where they'll still use the M where the embers not going anyway. But that shift of where my application live in what service is I do is going to change a lot over the next 3 to 5. >> Let's not lose sight, Dave, of where we are in the industry. I mean, we're at VM World 2019. We go to reinvents coming up. We kind of live in a tech bubble in the sense that all this stuff is all kind of great skating to where the puck is gonna be. But the reality is in most I tea shops, and again, I use ceases as a proxy in my mind, because they're in the cutting edge of all the real critical nature of security, of the impact that harm that could happen to a company. So I look at sea. So she's more of a canary in the coal mine for trends than the nutritional CEO. At this point, most enterprises are just trying to rationalize kubernetes, generally speaking like never mind, like making a centerpiece of their entire architecture. They're looking at their existing environment saying, Hey, I got V EMS that did great for me. Serve a consolidation enabled more efficiency, not rewriting code. Now what? I gotta do kubernetes and do all this other stuff. How do I suspect my VM with kubernetes? Is it on bare metal? So I think we're way ahead right now. In the narrative, I think the reality is that people catch up. That's where the proof is gonna come into. That's why the customer survey numbers are interesting. >> Keep keep. Townsend is set on the Cube VM, where moves at the speed of the CEO, so they're not moving too far ahead of them, but they are key heating up with them. >> Let me share some data to share some data so you could go to Silicon Angle. Look at the V M World 2019 90 spending survey containers, Cloud NSX and pivotal its data from Enterprise Technology Research that we analyzed. There's no evidence right now that Container's air hurting VM wear. But then that was the narrative that containers are gonna kill the M where but long term. There's real threats there. So that's what the pivotal acquisition, at least in part was about. I want to address the pivotal acquisition cause we haven't dug into it a little bit a cz, Much as I'd like to see. There's really three things there. One pivotal was struggling. You look at the stock price, you look at their buying patterns, you know the stock was down that not even close to their original AIPO price, so they wanted to get out of the public eye right now would not be on that 30 day shot clock. The second is it's a hedge on containers. And the third is it's a financial scheme. I mean, I'll call it that VM wears paying $800 million in cash for an asset that's worth $4 billion. How can that be? Well, they already owned 15% of pivotal there. Give. They're exchanging stock. So their trade trading paper to Adele in exchange for Dell's 70% ownership in Pivotal. So they pick up this asset, and it's basically a forced migration by Michael Del, who controls 96% of the voting shares. So there's all kinds of inside nuance going on there that nobody's really talked about it a >> great deal for Of'em. Where and Michael Dell? It's >> a very good deal for VM wear and Michael Dell. >> Let's unpack that are rapidly. >> Just did the one piece on that, right, because kubernetes it was the elephant, the room that was damaging what Pivotal was doing. VM were made a couple of acquisitions VM where needs to react at, so it made sense to pull out back in. Even if it does go against some of the original mission, that Cloud Foundry and Pivotal had to be able to be that cloud native without that full strong time, >> it's all about building apse, right? It's all about enabling developers. >> Let's on that note. Let's go around the horn and talk about what we expect from the emerald this year. And then we'll kick off three days of wall to wall coverage. I'll start, I expect. And I'm not looking for is how VM wear and its ecosystem and who's really deep in the ecosystem, who's kind of independent and neutral, what they're doing with their containers and kubernetes play. Because I think the container revolution that was started with Dr Absolutely is very relevant to the C i o and the Sea. So so and then how they're using data in that in their applications. So you know how VM Way wants to position themselves on the control plane, how that fits in the NSX. I think containers in the container ization is going to change. I think bare metal is gonna be a super important topic in the next couple of years. Dio I'm kind of swinging back to the my feeling that you know, hyper convergence what it did for server storage networking back when you were calling those those moves. I think that kind of hyper convergence mentality is coming up the stack, and I think Containers and the Kubernetes Chess Board will will play out. >> I think if you my feelings, if you don't own a public cloud, you better convince your customers in your ecosystem that the future is in our definition of cloud, which is multi cloud. And that's what this VM world to me is all about. >> Yeah, you know, Veum wears taking their software state and trying to live in all of those cloud world. So you know, V. Amar has 600,000 customers and they want to be the ones to educate them on the kubernetes containers. You know you're at modernization, but there's a lot of other places customers can learn about this. No one understand where VM wear really adds value beyond all of those pieces, because all the cloud platforms have their kubernetes. >> A lot of other places, like the public cloud. That's where all the action >> exactly comes back down the cloud 2.0 Dev and ops developers and operations all come together with software. Thank you. Breaking it down here for three days. Wall to wall coverage here in Moscow north to set celebrating our 10th year covering VM World. Thanks for watching stay with us from or action after this short break.

>> From Boston, Massachusetts. It's theCUBE. Covering Actifio 2019 Data Driven. (upbeat techno music) Brought to you by Actifio. >> Hello everyone and welcome to Boston and theCUBE's special coverage of Actifio Data Driven 19. I'm Dave Vellante. Stu Miniman is here. We've got a special guest, John Furrier is in the house from from Palo Alto. Guys, theCUBE we love to go out on the ground, you know, we go deep. We're here at this data theme, right? We were there in the early days, John, you called me up and say, "Get your butt here, we're going to cover the first of Doop World". And since then things have moved quite fast. Everybody thought, you know, Hadoop Big Data was going to take over the world. Nobody even uses that term anymore, right? It's kind of, now it's AI, and machine intelligence, and block chain, and everything else. So what do you think is happening? Did the early Big Data days fail? You know, Frank Genus this morning called it The experimentation phase. >> I mean, I don't really think Frank has a good handle on what's going on in my opinion, cause I think it's not an experimentation, it's real. That was a wave that was essentially the beginning of, not an experimentation, of realization and reality that data, unstructured data in particular was real and relevant. Hadoop looked good off the tee, mill the fairway as we say, but the thing about the Hadoop ecosystem is that validated big data. Every financial institution jumped on it. Everyone who knew anything about data or had data issues or had a lot of data, knew the value. It's just that the apparatus to build via Hadoop was too expensive. In comes Cloud computing at scale, so, as Cloud was accelerating, you look at the Amazon Web Services Revenue Chart you can almost see the D mark where the inflection point is on the hockey stick of Amazon's revenue numbers. And that is the point in time where Hadoop was on the declining of failure. Hortonworks sold the Cloudera. Cloudera's earnings are at an all-time low. A lot of speculation of their entire strategy, and their venture back company went public, but bet the ranch to be the next data warehouse. That wasn't the business model. The data business was a completely new industry, completely being re-transformed, and, far from experimentation, it is real and definitely growing like a weed, but changing because of the underpinning infrastructure dynamics of Cloud Native, Microservices, and that's only going to get highly accelerated and the people who talk about context of industry like Frank, are going to be off. Their predictions will be off because they don't really see the new picture clear enough, in my opinion, >> So, >> I think he's off. >> So it's not so much of a structural change like it was when we went from, you know, mainframes to PCs, it's more of a sort of flow, evolution into this new area which is being driven, powered by new technologies, we talk about block chain machine intelligence and other things. >> Well, I mean, the make up of companies that were building quote, "Big Data Solutions", were trying to build an apparatus or mechanisms to solve big data problems, but none of them actually had the big data problem. None of them were full of data. None of them had a lot of data. The ones that had problems were the financial institutions, the credit card companies, the people who were doing a lot of large scale, um, with Google, Facebook, and some of the hyperscalers. They were actually dealing with the data tsunami themselves, so the practitioners ended up driving it. You guys at Wikibomb, we pointed this out on theCUBE many times, that the value was going to come from the practitioners not the suppliers of so called technology. So, you know, the Clouderas of the world who thought Hadoop would be relevant and growing as a technology were right on one side, on the other side of the coin was the Cloud decimation of that sector. The Cloud computer just completely blew away that Hadoop market because you didn't have to hire a PhD, you didn't have to hire specialty skills to stand up Hadoop clusters. You could actually throw it in the Cloud and get agile quickly, and get value out of data very very quickly. That has been real, it has not been an experiment. There's been new case studies, new companies born, new brands, so it's not an experiment, it is reality, and it's only going to get more real every day. >> And I add of course now you've got, you mentioned Cloudera and Hortenworks, you also got Matt Bar reeling Stu. Let's talk about Actifio. So they coined the term Copy Data Management, they created the category, of course they do a lot of backup, I mean, everybody in this space does a lot of backup. And then you saw the Silicon Valley companies come in. Particularly Cohesity and Rubric, you know, to a lesser extent he got some other guys like Zerto and Durva, but it was really those two companies, Cohesity and Rubric, they raised more money in their D round than Actifio has since inception. But yet Actifio keeps, you know, plodding along, growing, you know, word is they're profitable, you know, they're not like this really sectioned very East Coast versus kind of West Coast mentality. What's your take on what's going on? >> Yeah, so, Dave right, you look at the early days of Actifio and you say great, Copy Data Management, I have all these copies of data, how do I reduce my cost, get greater utilization than I have and leverage the data? I love the title of the show here, Data Driven. You know, we know at the center of digital transformation if you can't become data driven, like the CMO Brian Regan got up on stage talk about that industrialization of data. How am I going along that journey being this, I collected data versus now, you know, data, you know, is the reason that I make decisions, how I make decisions, I get smarter. The Cloud of course is a huge enabler of this, there's all these services that I can instantly access to be able to get greater insight, and move along with that environment, and if you look underneath all of these backup companies, it's really how I can change that data into business value and drive my business, the metadata underneath and all those pieces, not just the wonky storage and technical solutions that make things better, and I get a faster ROI. It's that data at the core of what we do and how do I get that as a business to accelerate. Because we know IT needs to be able to respond back to the business and data needs to be that rocket fuel. >> Is it the case of data haves and data have-nots? I mean, Amazon has data >> I mean, you're right-- >> and Facebook has data. >> We're talking about Actifio, you brought that up, okay, on this segment, on the inside segment, which is cool, they're here at the event, but they have a good opportunity but they also, they got some challenges. I mean, the thing about Actifio is, to my earlier point, which side of the wave are they on? Are they out too much out front with virtualization and Amazon, the Cloud will take them away, or are they riding the Cloud wave, making that an enabler? And I think what really I like about Actifio is because they have a lot of virtualization capabilities, the question is can they scale that Stu, to containers and microservices, because, the real opportunity in this market, in my opinion, is going to build on the virtualization trend, and make container aware, microservices capabilities because if they don't, then that would be a tell sign. Now either way it's a hot M&A market right now, so I think being in the market, horse on the track as you say. You look at the tableau sales force deal monster numbers we are in clearly a hot IPO market and a major roll up market on the M&A side. I think clearly there's two types of companies, old and new, and that is really what people are looking at, are they part of the old guard, are they the new guard. So, you know, this to me is going to be a tell sign of what they do next, can they make the data driven value proposition, you articulated Stu, actually a reality It's going to come from the technology underneath. >> Well I think it's a really interesting point you're making because, Stu as you probably know, that Amazon announced the Amazon backup service right, and you talked about the backup guys and they're like, "Ah yeah it's backup, but it really doesn't do recovery, it's really not that robust". It's part of me says, "Uh oh"... >> Watch out. >> You better move fast", because Amazon has stated, "Hey if you don't move fast we're going to just keep gobbling", and you've seen Amazon do this. What are your thoughts on that? Can these specialists, can they survive, John's talking about M&A. Can the market support all these guys along with the big, you know, traditional guys like Veritas, and Dell EMC, and IBM and Combol? >> Right, well so Actifio started very much in the data center. They were before this Could wave really took off. It's really only in the last year that they've been sassifying their product. So the question is, does that underlying IP, which wasn't tied to hardware, but, you know, sat at really more of, you know, reminded us of that storage virtualization battles that we talked about for years, Dave, but now they are going in the Cloud. They've got all the partnerships in the Cloud, but they are competing against those new vendors that you talked about like Cohesity and Rubric out there, and there's big money chasing this environment. So, you know, I want to talk to the customers here and find out, you know, where they are using them, and especially some of those first customers using this--. >> Well they clearly need a Cloud play cause that's clearly where the action is. But if you look at what's going on with Amazon, Azure, and Google you see a lot of on premises, Stu, because that's where the customers are. So just because the customers are currently not migrating their existing workloads to the Cloud doesn't mean it's not going to happen. So I think there's an opportunity for any company like Actifio, who may or may not be on the curve on the tech side, one little misfire on a tech bet could cripple the company and also make the company. There's a lot of high risk, reward ratio. How they handle containers. How they build on virtualizations. Virtualization going to to be part of the future with Cloud. These are the kind of the dynamics that are going to be in play, and they got some time on their hands because the on premises growth is because the clients are trying to figure out what to do and they're not going to be migrating, lifting, and shifting workloads all off to the Cloud. New will be Cloud based, but enterprises have proven why we are in multi-Cloud and hybrid-Cloud conversation, that... The enterprise on premises is not going away anytime soon. >> I want to ask you guys, John you specifically, about this sort of new Silicon Valley growth model and how companies are achieving escape velocity. When you and I made our first trip to Barcelona, I was having dinner with David Scott who was the CEO of 3PAR and he said to me, When I came to 3PAR the board said, "Hey we're willing to invest 30 million dollars in this company". And David Scott said to them, "I need way more, I need 80 million dollars". Today 80 million dollars is nothing. You saw, you know, Pure Storage hit escape velocity, was just throwing money, and growing at the problem. You're seeing Cohesity-- >> Well you can debate that. I mean, If you have to build a rocket ship, hit critical mass and you want to fund that, you're going to to need an enterprise. However, there's arguments on the south side that you can actually get fly wheel effect going early with less capital. So again, that's 3PAR-- >> But so that's my point. >> Well so that's 3PAR, that was 2009. >> So, yeah that was early days so that's ancient history. But software is generally supposed to be a capital efficient market, yet these companies are raising many hundreds and hundreds of millions, you know, half a billion dollar raises and they are putting it largely in promotion. Is that the new model, is that sustainable, in your view? >> Well I think you're conflating capital market dynamics with viable companies to invest in. I think there's a robust seed in series A market but the series A market and Silicon Valley is you know, 15 to 25 million, it used to be 3 to 5. So the dynamics are changing on funding. There's just not enough companies, horses on the track, to deploy capital at tranches of 30, 50, 80 million. So the capital markets are clearly going to have the money available so it's a market for the startups and the broke companies. That's separate from actually winning. So you've got slacks going public this weeks, you have other companies who have built business on a sass fly wheel, and then everything else is gravy in terms of the go to market, they got a couple hundred million. I think slack got close to a billion dollars in cash that they've raised. So they're flooded with cash, they'll never spend it all. So there are some companies that can achieve success like that. Others have to buy market share, they got to push and build out a sales force, and it's going to be a function of the role of customer, customization, specialism, and whatnot. But with AI machine leaning there's more efficiencies coming in so I think the modern company can do more with less. >> What do you think of the ride sharing on IPOs, Uber and Lift, do you abol? Do you like 'em or do you think it's just, they're losing too money and can't sustain it? >> I was thinking about that this morning after looking at the article in the Wall Street Journal in our coverage on Silicon angle. You look at Zoom communications, I like models that actually can take a simple concept and an existing mature market and disrupt it by being Cloud efficient and completely sass and data driven. That is an example of success. That to me, Zoom Communications and Zscaler, another company that we talk to, these are companies that were built with a specific value proposition that made the product and they were targeting mature markets with leaders in it. Video conferencing, Webex, Citrix, Zoom came out of nowhere, optimized on simple value proposition, used Cloud scale and data, and crushed it. Uber, Lift, little bit different issue. They're losing money but I would bet on the long term that that is going to be the used case for how people will have transportation. I think that's the long game and I think that without regulatory kind of pressure, without, there's regulatory issues that's really the big risk. But I believe that Uber and Lift absolutely will be long brands and just like Facebook was early on, although they threw off a lot of cash, those guys are building for penetration, and that's where the funding matters. Penetration is critical. Now they're the standard, and people really don't take taxis anymore, but they're really using the ride sharing. And you get the scooters, you get the bikes, they're all sequencing into these adjacent markets which drains more cash but builds the brand, builds the footprint. >> Well that's what I want to ask you. So people compare the early Uber, Lift, Taxi, Ride sharing to Amazon selling books, but there's all these other adjacencies. You have a thought on this? >> Well, just, you know, right, Uber Eats is a huge opportunity for that environment and autonomous vehicles everybody talks about, but it's still quite a ways out. So there are a lot of different- >> Scooters are the same, we're in San Diego, there are 8 gazillion scooters. >> San Diego had fun, you know, going around on their electronic scooters, boy, talk about the gig economy, they pay people at the night, to like go pay by the recharge you do on that, what is the future of work, >> Yeah, that's a great point. >> and how can we have that-- >> Uber going to look a lot like Amazon. You subsidize the front end retail side of the business, but look at the data that they throw up. Uber's data that they're gathering on, not only customer behavior, but just mapping services, 3-D mapping is going to be huge, so you've got these cars that are essentially bots on the road, providing massive mapping and traffic analysis. So you're going to start to see data driven, like Actifio slogan here, be a big part of all design decisions and value proposition from any company out there. And if they're not data driven I think they're going to be toast. >> Probably could because there's that data and that machine learning underneath, that can optimize, you know, where the people are, how I use the system, such a huge wave that we're watching. >> How about one last topic which is heavily data driven, it's Facebook. Facebook is obviously a data driven company, the Facebook crypto play, I love it, I love Facebook. I'm a bull on Facebook, I think it's been beat up. I think, two billion users is hard to replicate, but what's your thoughts on their crypto play? >> Well it's kind of a middle finger to the United States of America but it's a great catalyst for the international market because crypto needed a whale to come in and bring all those users in. Bad timing, in my mind, for Facebook, because given all the anti-trust and regulatory conversations, what better way to show your threat to the world order when you say we're going to run a banking system with a collection of international companies. I think the US is going to look at this and say, "Oh my God! They can't even be trusted to handle personal information and we're going to now let them run a banking system? Run monetary, basically World Bank equivalent infrastructure?" No frickin way! I think this is going to to be a major road to home. I think Facebook has to really make this an ecosystem play if they want to make it work, that's their telegraphic move they're saying, "Hey we want to do for the community but we got our own wallet and we got our own network". But they bring a lot to the table so it's going to be a really interesting dynamic to see the coalescing around Facebook because they could make the market. Look what Instagram did to Snapchat. They literally killed the company, took all their users. That is what's going to happen in the digital money economy when Facebook brings billions of users user experience with money. What happened with Snapchat with Instagram is going to happen to the World Bank if this continues. >> Where do you stand on the government breaking up big tech? >> So Dave, you know, you look in these companies, it's not easy to pull those apart. I don't think our government understands how most of big tech works. You know, take Amazon and AWS, that's one company underneath it. You know, Facebook, Microsoft. You know, Microsoft went through all these issues. Question Dave, we've had lots of debates on Twitter you know, are they breaking the law, are they not doing trust? I have some trust issues with Facebook myself, but most of the big companies up there I don't think the anti-trust kicks in, I don't think it makes sense to pull them apart. >> Stu, the Facebook story and the YouTube story are simply this, they have been hiding under the platform rules, of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, and they are an editing platform so you can't sue them. Okay, once they become a publisher they could be sued. Just like CNN, Fox News, and everybody else. And we're publishers. So they've been hiding behind the platform. That gig is up. They're going to have to address are you a platform or are you a publisher? You're making editing decisions around what users can see with software, you are essentially editing the feed, that is a publisher role, with that becomes responsibility, and then obviously regulartory. >> Well Facebook is conflicted right now. They're trying to figure out which side of the fence to go on. >> No no no! They want one side! The platform side! They're make billions of dollars! >> Yeah but so they're making decisions about you know, which content to show and whether they monetize it. And when it's controversial content, they'll turn down the ads a little bit but they won't completely eliminate it sometimes. >> So, Dave, the only thing that the partisans in politics seem to agree on though is that big tech has too much power. You know, What's your take on that? >> Well so I think that if they are breaking the law then they should be moderated. But I don't think the answer is to go hard after Elizabeth Warren. Hard after them and break them up. I think you got to start with okay, because you break these companies up what's going to happen is they're going to be worth more, it's going to be AT&T all over again. >> While you guys were at Sysco Live, we covered this at Amazon Web Service and Public Sector Summit. The real issue in government, Stu, is there's too much tech for bad on the PR side, and there's not enough tech for good. Tech is not bad, tech is good. There's not enough promotion around the apps around there. There's real venture funds being created to promote tech for good. That's going to where the tide will turn. When does the tech industry start doing good stuff, not bad stuff. >> All right we've got to wrap. John, thanks for sitting in. Thank you for watching. Be right back, we're here at Actifio Data Driven 2019. From Boston this is theCUBE, be right back. (upbeat techno music)