>>Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Cube's live coverage here in Boston, Massachusetts for AWS reinforce 2022. I'm John fur, host of the cube with Dave. Valante my co-host for breaking analysis, famous podcast, Dave, great to see you. Um, Beck in Boston, 2010, we started >>The queue. It all started right here in this building. John, >>12 years ago, we started here, but here, you know, just 12 years, it just seems like a marathon with the queue. Over the years, we've seen many ways. You call yourself a historian, which you are. We are both now, historians security is doing over. And we said in 2013 is security to do where we asked pat GSK. Now the CEO of Intel prior to that, he was the CEO of VMware. This is the security show fors. It's called the reinforce. They have reinvent, which is their big show. Now they have these, what they call reshow, re Mars, machine learning, automation, um, robotics and space. And then they got reinforced, which is security. It's all about security in the cloud. So great show. Lot of talk about the keynotes were, um, pretty, I wouldn't say generic on one hand, but specific in the other clear AWS posture, we were both watching. What's your take? >>Well, John, actually looking back to may of 2010, when we started the cube at EMC world, and that was the beginning of this massive boom run, uh, which, you know, finally, we're starting to see some, some cracks of the armor. Of course, we're threats of recession. We're in a recession, most likely, uh, in inflationary pressures, interest rate hikes. And so, you know, finally the tech market has chilled out a little bit and you have this case before we get into the security piece of is the glass half full or half empty. So budgets coming into this year, it was expected. They would grow at a very robust eight point half percent CIOs have tuned that down, but it's still pretty strong at around 6%. And one of the areas that they really have no choice, but to focus on is security. They moved everything into the cloud or a lot of stuff into the cloud. >>They had to deal with remote work and that created a lot of security vulnerabilities. And they're still trying to figure that out and plug the holes with the lack of talent that they have. So it's interesting re the first reinforc that we did, which was also here in 2019, Steven Schmidt, who at the time was chief information security officer at Amazon web services said the state of cloud security is really strong. All this narrative, like the pat Gelsinger narrative securities, a do over, which you just mentioned, security is broken. It doesn't help the industry. The state of cloud security is very strong. If you follow the prescription. Well, see, now Steven Schmidt, as you know, is now chief security officer at Amazon. So we followed >>Jesse all Amazon, not just AWS. So >>He followed Jesse over and I asked him, well, why no, I, and they said, well, he's responsible now for physical security. Presumably the warehouses I'm like, well, wait a minute. What about the data centers? Who's responsible for that? So it's kind of funny, CJ. Moses is now the CSO at AWS and you know, these events are, are good. They're growing. And it's all about best practices, how to apply the practices. A lot of recommendations from, from AWS, a lot of tooling and really an ecosystem because let's face it. Amazon doesn't have the breadth and depth of tools to do it alone. >>And also the attendance is interesting, cuz we are just in New York city for the, uh, ado summit, 19,000 people, massive numbers, certainly in the pandemic. That's probably one of the top end shows and it was a summit. This is a different audience. It's security. It's really nerdy. You got OT, you got cloud. You've got on-prem. So now you have cloud operations. We're calling super cloud. Of course we're having our inaugural pilot event on August 9th, check it out. We're called super cloud, go to the cube.net to check it out. But this is the super cloud model evolving with security. And what you're hearing today, Dave, I wanna get your reaction to this is things like we've got billions of observational points. We're certainly there's no perimeter, right? So the perimeter's dead. The new perimeter, if you will, is every transaction at scale. So you have to have a new model. So security posture needs to be rethought. They actually said that directly on the keynote. So security, although numbers aren't as big as last week or two weeks ago in New York still relevant. So alright. There's sessions here. There's networking. Very interesting demographic, long hair. Lot of >>T-shirts >>No lot of, not a lot of nerds doing to build out things over there. So, so I gotta ask you, what's your reaction to this scale as the new advantage? Is that a tailwind or a headwind? What's your read? >>Well, it is amazing. I mean he actually, Steven Schmidt talked about quadrillions of events every month, quadrillions 15 zeros. What surprised me, John. So they, they, Amazon talks about five areas, but by the, by the way, at the event, they got five tracks in 125 sessions, data protection and privacy, GRC governance, risk and compliance, identity network security and threat detection. I was really surprised given the focus on developers, they didn't call out container security. I would've thought that would be sort of a separate area of focus, but to your point about scale, it's true. Amazon has a scale where they'll see events every day or every month that you might not see in a generation if you just kind of running your own data center. So I do think that's, that's, that's, that's a, a, a, a valid statement having said that Amazon's got a limited capability in terms of security. That's why they have to rely on the ecosystem. Now it's all about APIs connecting in and APIs are one of the biggest security vulnerability. So that's kind of, I, I I'm having trouble squaring that circle. >>Well, they did just to come up, bring back to the whole open source and software. They did say they did make a measurement was store, but at the beginning, Schmidt did say that, you know, besides scale being an advantage for Amazon with a quadri in 15 zeros, don't bolt on security. So that's a classic old school. We've heard that before, right. But he said specifically, weave in security in the dev cycles. And the C I C D pipeline that is, that basically means shift left. So sneak is here, uh, company we've covered. Um, and they, their whole thing is shift left. That implies Docker containers that implies Kubernetes. Um, but this is not a cloud native show per se. It's much more crypto crypto. You heard about, you know, the, uh, encrypt everything message on the keynote. You heard, um, about reasoning, quantum, quantum >>Skating to the puck. >>Yeah. So yeah, so, you know, although the middleman is logged for J heard that little little mention, I love the quote from Lewis Hamilton that they put up on stage CJ, Moses said, team behind the scenes make it happen. So a big emphasis on teamwork, big emphasis on don't bolt on security, have it in the beginning. We've heard that before a lot of threat modeling discussions, uh, and then really this, you know, the news around the cloud audit academy. So clearly skills gap, more threats, more use cases happening than ever before. >>Yeah. And you know, to your point about, you know, the teamwork, I think the problem that CISOs have is they just don't have the talent to that. AWS has. So they have a real difficulty applying that talent. And so but's saying, well, join us at these shows. We'll kind of show you how to do it, how we do it internally. And again, I think when you look out on this ecosystem, there's still like thousands and thousands of tools that practitioners have to apply every time. There's a tool, there's a separate set of skills to really understand that tool, even within AWS's portfolio. So this notion of a shared responsibility model, Amazon takes care of, you know, securing for instance, the physical nature of S3 you're responsible for secure, make sure you're the, the S3 bucket doesn't have public access. So that shared responsibility model is still very important. And I think practitioners still struggling with all this complexity in this matrix of tools. >>So they had the layered defense. So, so just a review opening keynote with Steve Schmidt, the new CSO, he talked about weaving insecurity in the dev cycles shift left, which is the, I don't bolt it on keep in the beginning. Uh, the lessons learned, he talked a lot about over permissive creates chaos, um, and that you gotta really look at who has access to what and why big learnings there. And he brought up the use cases. The more use cases are coming on than ever before. Um, layered defense strategy was his core theme, Dave. And that was interesting. And he also said specifically, no, don't rely on single security control, use multiple layers, stronger together. Be it it from the beginning, basically that was the whole ethos, the posture, he laid that down >>And he had a great quote on that. He said, I'm sorry to interrupt single controls. And binary states will fail guaranteed. >>Yeah, that's a guarantee that was basically like, that's his, that's not a best practice. That's a mandate. <laugh> um, and then CJ, Moses, who was his deputy in the past now takes over a CSO, um, ownership across teams, ransomware mitigation, air gaping, all that kind of in the weeds kind of security stuff. You want to check the boxes on. And I thought he did a good job. Right. And he did the news. He's the new CISO. Okay. Then you had lean is smart from Mongo DB. Come on. Yeah. Um, she was interesting. I liked her talk, obviously. Mongo is one of the ecosystem partners headlining game. How do you read into that? >>Well, I, I I'm, its really interesting. Right? You didn't see snowflake up there. Right? You see data breaks up there. You had Mongo up there and I'm curious is her and she's coming on the cube tomorrow is her primary role sort of securing Mongo internally? Is it, is it securing the Mongo that's running across clouds. She's obviously here talking about AWS. So what I make of it is, you know, that's, it's a really critical partner. That's driving a lot of business for AWS, but at the same time it's data, they talked about data security being one of the key areas that you have to worry about and that's, you know what Mongo does. So I'm really excited. I talked to her >>Tomorrow. I, I did like her mention a big idea, a cube alumni, yeah. Company. They were part of our, um, season one of our eight of us startup showcase, check out AWS startups.com. If you're watching this, we've been doing now, we're in season two, we're featuring the fastest growing hottest startups in the ecosystem. Not the big players, that's ISVs more of the startups. They were mentioned. They have a great product. So I like to mention a big ID. Um, security hub mentioned a config. They're clearly a big customer and they have user base, a lot of E C, two and storage going on. People are building on Mongo so I can see why they're in there. The question I want to ask you is, is Mongo's new stuff in line with all the upgrades in the Silicon. So you got graviton, which has got great stuff. Um, great performance. Do you see that, that being a key part of things >>Well, specifically graviton. So I I'll tell you this. I'll tell you what I know when you look at like snowflake, for instance, is optimizing for graviton. For certain workloads, they actually talked about it on their earnings call, how it's lowered the cost for customers and actually hurt their revenue. You know, they still had great revenue, but it hurt their revenue. My sources indicate to me that that, that Mongo is not getting as much outta graviton two, but they're waiting for graviton three. Now they don't want to make that widely known because they don't wanna dis AWS. But it's, it's probably because Mongo's more focused on analytics. But so to me, graviton is the future. It's lower cost. >>Yeah. Nobody turns off the database. >>Nobody turns off the database. >><laugh>, it's always cranking C two cycles. You >>Know the other thing I wanted to bring, bring up, I thought we'd hear, hear more about ransomware. We heard a little bit of from Kirk Coel and he, and he talked about all these things you could do to mitigate ransomware. He didn't talk about air gaps and that's all you hear is how air gap. David Flo talks about this all the time. You must have air gaps. If you wanna, you know, cover yourself against ransomware. And they didn't even mention that. Now, maybe we'll hear that from the ecosystem. That was kind of surprising. Then I, I saw you made a note in our shared doc about encryption, cuz I think all the talk here is encryption at rest. What about data in motion? >>Well, this, this is the last guy that came on the keynote. He brought up encryption, Kurt, uh, Goel, which I love by the way he's VP of platform. I like his mojo. He's got the long hair >>And he's >>Geeking out swagger, but I, he hit on some really cool stuff. This idea of the reasoning, right? He automated reasoning is little pet project that is like killer AI. That's next generation. Next level >>Stuff. Explain that. >>So machine learning does all kinds of things, you know, goes to sit pattern, supervise, unsupervised automate stuff, but true reasoning. Like no one connecting the dots with software. That's like true AI, right? That's really hard. Like in word association, knowing how things are connected, looking at pattern and deducing things. So you predictive analytics, we all know comes from great machine learning. But when you start getting into deduction, when you say, Hey, that EC two cluster never should be on the same VPC, is this, this one? Why is this packet trying to go there? You can see patterns beyond normal observation space. So if you have a large observation space like AWS, you can really put some killer computer science technology on this. And that's where this reasoning is. It's next level stuff you don't hear about it because nobody does it. Yes. I mean, Google does it with metadata. There's meta meta reasoning. Um, we've been, I've been watching this for over two decades now. It's it's a part of AI that no one's tapped and if they get it right, this is gonna be a killer part of the automation. So >>He talked about this, basically it being advanced math that gets you to provable security, like you gave an example. Another example I gave is, is this S3 bucket open to the public is a, at that access UN restricted or unrestricted, can anyone access my KMS keys? So, and you can prove, yeah. The answer to that question using advanced math and automated reasoning. Yeah, exactly. That's a huge leap because you used to be use math, but you didn't have the data, the observation space and the compute power to be able to do it in near real time or real time. >>It's like, it's like when someone, if in the physical world real life in real life, you say, Hey, that person doesn't belong here. Or you, you can look at something saying that doesn't fit <laugh> >>Yeah. Yeah. >>So you go, okay, you observe it and you, you take measures on it or you query that person and say, why you here? Oh, okay. You're here. It doesn't fit. Right. Think about the way on the right clothes, the right look, whatever you kind of have that data. That's deducing that and getting that information. That's what reasoning is. It's it's really a killer level. And you know, there's encrypt, everything has to be data. Lin has to be data in at movement at rest is one thing, but you gotta get data in flight. Dave, this is a huge problem. And making that work is a key >>Issue. The other thing that Kirk Coel talked about was, was quantum, uh, quantum proof algorithms, because basically he put up a quote, you're a hockey guy, Wayne Greski. He said the greatest hockey player ever. Do you agree? I do agree. Okay, great. >>Bobby or, and Wayne Greski. >>Yeah, but okay, so we'll give the nada Greski, but I always skate to the where the puck is gonna be not to where it's been. And basically his point was where skating to where quantum is going, because quantum, it brings risks to basically blow away all the existing crypto cryptographic algorithms. I, I, my understanding is N just came up with new algorithms. I wasn't clear if those were supposed to be quantum proof, but I think they are, and AWS is testing them. And AWS is coming out with, you know, some test to see if quantum can break these new algos. So that's huge. The question is interoperability. Yeah. How is it gonna interact with all the existing algorithms and all the tools that are out there today? So I think we're a long way off from solving that problem. >>Well, that was one of Kurt's big point. You talking about quantum resistant cryptography and they introduce hybrid post quantum key agreements. That means KMS cert certification, cert manager and manager all can manage the keys. This was something that's gives more flexibility on, on, on that quantum resistance argument. I gotta dig into it. I really don't know how it works, what he meant by that in terms of what does that hybrid actually mean? I think what it means is multi mode and uh, key management, but we'll see. >>So I come back to the ho the macro for a second. We've got consumer spending under pressure. Walmart just announced, not great earning. Shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. We have Amazon meta and alphabet announcing this weekend. I think Microsoft. Yep. So everybody's on edge, you know, is this gonna ripple through now? The flip side of that is BEC because the economy yeah. Is, is maybe not in, not such great shape. People are saying maybe the fed is not gonna raise after September. Yeah. So that's, so that's why we come back to this half full half empty. How does that relate to cyber security? Well, people are prioritizing cybersecurity, but it's not an unlimited budget. So they may have to steal from other places. >>It's a double whammy. Dave, it's a double whammy on the spend side and also the macroeconomic. So, okay. We're gonna have a, a recession that's predicted the issue >>On, so that's bad on the one hand, but it's good from a standpoint of not raising interest rates, >>It's one of the double whammy. It was one, it's one of the double whammy and we're talking about here, but as we sit on the cube two weeks ago at <inaudible> summit in New York, and we did at re Mars, this is the first recession where the cloud computing hyperscale is, are pumping full cylinder, all cylinders. So there's a new economic engine called cloud computing that's in place. So unlike data center purchase in the past, that was CapEx. When, when spending was hit, they pause was a complete shutdown. Then a reboot cloud computer. You can pause spending for a little bit, make, might make the cycle longer in sales, but it's gonna be quickly fast turned on. So, so turning off spending with cloud is not that hard to do. You can hit pause and like check things out and then turn it back on again. So that's just general cloud economics with security though. I don't see the spending slowing down. Maybe the sales cycles might go longer, but there's no spending slow down in my mind that I see. And if there's any pause, it's more of refactoring, whether it's the crypto stuff or new things that Amazon has. >>So, so that's interesting. So a couple things there. I do think you're seeing a slight slow down in the, the, the ex the velocity of the spend. When you look at the leaders in spending velocity in ETR data, CrowdStrike, Okta, Zscaler, Palo Alto networks, they're all showing a slight deceleration in spending momentum, but still highly elevated. Yeah. Okay. So, so that's a, I think now to your other point, really interesting. What you're saying is cloud spending is discretionary. That's one of the advantages. I can dial it down, but track me if I'm wrong. But most of the cloud spending is with reserved instances. So ultimately you're buying those reserved instances and you have to spend over a period of time. So they're ultimately AWS is gonna see that revenue. They just might not see it for this one quarter. As people pull back a little bit, right. >>It might lag a little bit. So it might, you might not see it for a quarter or two, so it's impact, but it's not as severe. So the dialing up, that's a key indicator get, I think I'm gonna watch that because that's gonna be something that we've never seen before. So what's that reserve now the wild card and all this and the dark horse new services. So there's other services besides the classic AC two, but security and others. There's new things coming out. So to me, this is absolutely why we've been saying super cloud is a thing because what's going on right now in security and cloud native is there's net new functionality that needs to be in place to handle multiple clouds, multiple abstraction layers, and to do all these super cloudlike capabilities like Mike MongoDB, like these vendors, they need to up their gain. And that we're gonna see new cloud native services that haven't exist. Yeah. I'll use some hatchy Corp here. I'll use something over here. I got some VMware, I got this, but there's gaps. Dave, there'll be gaps that are gonna emerge. And I think that's gonna be a huge wild >>Cup. And now I wanna bring something up on the super cloud event. So you think about the layers I, as, uh, PAs and, and SAS, and we see super cloud permeating, all those somebody ask you, well, because we have Intuit coming on. Yep. If somebody asks, why Intuit in super cloud, here's why. So we talked about cloud being discretionary. You can dial it down. We saw that with snowflake sort of Mongo, you know, similarly you can, if you want dial it down, although transaction databases are to do, but SAS, the SAS model is you pay for it every month. Okay? So I've, I've contended that the SAS model is not customer friendly. It's not cloudlike and it's broken for customers. And I think it's in this decade, it's gonna get fixed. And people are gonna say, look, we're gonna move SAS into a consumption model. That's more customer friendly. And that's something that we're >>Gonna explore in the super cloud event. Yeah. And one more thing too, on the spend, the other wild card is okay. If we believe super cloud, which we just explained, um, if you don't come to the August 9th event, watch the debate happen. But as the spending gets paused, the only reason why spending will be paused in security is the replatforming of moving from tools to platforms. So one of the indicators that we're seeing with super cloud is a flight to best of breeds on platforms, meaning hyperscale. So on Amazon web services, there's a best of breed set of services from AWS and the ecosystem on Azure. They have a few goodies there and customers are making a choice to use Azure for certain things. If they, if they have teams or whatever or office, and they run all their dev on AWS. So that's kind of what's happened. So that's, multi-cloud by our definition is customers two clouds. That's not multi-cloud, as in things are moving around. Now, if you start getting data planes in there, these customers want platforms. If I'm a cybersecurity CSO, I'm moving to platforms, not just tools. So, so maybe CrowdStrike might have it dial down, but a little bit, but they're turning into a platform. Splunk trying to be a platform. Okta is platform. Everybody's scale is a platform. It's a platform war right now, Dave cyber, >>A right paying identity. They're all plat platform, beach products. We've talked about that a lot in the queue. >>Yeah. Well, great stuff, Dave, let's get going. We've got two days alive coverage. Here is a cubes at, in Boston for reinforc 22. I'm Shante. We're back with our guests coming on the queue at the short break.

>>Okay. Okay. We're back at Caesar's Forum. The Snowflake summit 2022. The cubes. Continuous coverage this day to wall to wall coverage. We're so excited to have the analyst panel here, some of my colleagues that we've done a number. You've probably seen some power panels that we've done. David McGregor is here. He's the senior vice president and research director at Ventana Research. To his left is Tony Blair, principal at DB Inside and my in the co host seat. Sanjeev Mohan Sanremo. Guys, thanks so much for coming on. I'm glad we can. Thank you. You're very welcome. I wasn't able to attend the analyst action because I've been doing this all all day, every day. But let me start with you, Dave. What have you seen? That's kind of interested you. Pluses, minuses. Concerns. >>Well, how about if I focus on what I think valuable to the customers of snowflakes and our research shows that the majority of organisations, the majority of people, do not have access to analytics. And so a couple of things they've announced I think address those are helped to address those issues very directly. So Snow Park and support for Python and other languages is a way for organisations to embed analytics into different business processes. And so I think that will be really beneficial to try and get analytics into more people's hands. And I also think that the native applications as part of the marketplace is another way to get applications into people's hands rather than just analytical tools. Because most most people in the organisation or not, analysts, they're doing some line of business function. Their HR managers, their marketing people, their salespeople, their finance people right there, not sitting there mucking around in the data. They're doing a job and they need analytics in that job. So, >>Tony, I thank you. I've heard a lot of data mesh talk this week. It's kind of funny. Can't >>seem to get away from it. You >>can't see. It seems to be gathering momentum, but But what have you seen? That's been interesting. >>What I have noticed. Unfortunately, you know, because the rooms are too small, you just can't get into the data mesh sessions, so there's a lot of interest in it. Um, it's still very I don't think there's very much understanding of it, but I think the idea that you can put all the data in one place which, you know, to me, stuff like it seems to be kind of sort of in a way, it sounds like almost like the Enterprise Data warehouse, you know, Clouded Cloud Native Edition, you know, bring it all in one place again. Um, I think it's providing, sort of, You know, it's I think, for these folks that think this might be kind of like a a linchpin for that. I think there are several other things that actually that really have made a bigger impression on me. Actually, at this event, one is is basically is, um we watch their move with Eunice store. Um, and it's kind of interesting coming, you know, coming from mongo db last week. And I see it's like these two companies seem to be going converging towards the same place at different speeds. I think it's not like it's going to get there faster than Mongo for a number of different reasons, but I see like a number of common threads here. I mean, one is that Mongo was was was a company. It's always been towards developers. They need you know, start cultivating data, people, >>these guys going the other way. >>Exactly. Bingo. And the thing is that but they I think where they're converging is the idea of operational analytics and trying to serve all constituencies. The other thing, which which also in terms of serving, you know, multiple constituencies is how snowflake is laid out Snow Park and what I'm finding like. There's an interesting I economy. On one hand, you have this very ingrained integration of Anaconda, which I think is pretty ingenious. On the other hand, you speak, let's say, like, let's say the data robot folks and say, You know something our folks wanna work data signs us. We want to work in our environment and use snowflake in the background. So I see those kind of some interesting sort of cross cutting trends. >>So, Sandy, I mean, Frank Sullivan, we'll talk about there's definitely benefits into going into the walled garden. Yeah, I don't think we dispute that, but we see them making moves and adding more and more open source capabilities like Apache iceberg. Is that a Is that a move to sort of counteract the narrative that the data breaks is put out there. Is that customer driven? What's your take on that? >>Uh, primarily I think it is to contract this whole notion that once you move data into snowflake, it's a proprietary format. So I think that's how it started. But it's hugely beneficial to the customers to the users, because now, if you have large amounts of data in parquet files, you can leave it on s three. But then you using the the Apache iceberg table format. In a snowflake, you get all the benefits of snowflakes. Optimizer. So, for example, you get the, you know, the micro partitioning. You get the meta data. So, uh, in a single query, you can join. You can do select from a snowflake table union and select from iceberg table, and you can do store procedures, user defined functions. So I think they what they've done is extremely interesting. Uh, iceberg by itself still does not have multi table transactional capabilities. So if I'm running a workload, I might be touching 10 different tables. So if I use Apache iceberg in a raw format, they don't have it. But snowflake does, >>right? There's hence the delta. And maybe that maybe that closes over time. I want to ask you as you look around this I mean the ecosystems pretty vibrant. I mean, it reminds me of, like reinvent in 2013, you know? But then I'm struck by the complexity of the last big data era and a dupe and all the different tools. And is this different, or is it the sort of same wine new new bottle? You guys have any thoughts on that? >>I think it's different and I'll tell you why. I think it's different because it's based around sequel. So if back to Tony's point, these vendors are coming at this from different angles, right? You've got data warehouse vendors and you've got data lake vendors and they're all going to meet in the middle. So in your case, you're taught operational analytical. But the same thing is true with Data Lake and Data Warehouse and Snowflake no longer wants to be known as the Data Warehouse. There a data cloud and our research again. I like to base everything off of that. >>I love what our >>research shows that organisation Two thirds of organisations have sequel skills and one third have big data skills, so >>you >>know they're going to meet in the middle. But it sure is a lot easier to bring along those people who know sequel already to that midpoint than it is to bring big data people to remember. >>Mrr Odula, one of the founders of Cloudera, said to me one time, John Kerry and the Cube, that, uh, sequel is the killer app for a Yeah, >>the difference at this, you know, with with snowflake, is that you don't have to worry about taming the zoo. Animals really have thought out the ease of use, you know? I mean, they thought about I mean, from the get go, they thought of too thin to polls. One is ease of use, and the other is scale. And they've had. And that's basically, you know, I think very much differentiates it. I mean, who do have the scale, but it didn't have the ease of use. But don't I >>still need? Like, if I have, you know, governance from this vendor or, you know, data prep from, you know, don't I still have to have expertise? That's sort of distributed in those those worlds, right? I mean, go ahead. Yeah. >>So the way I see it is snowflake is adding more and more capabilities right into the database. So, for example, they've they've gone ahead and added security and privacy so you can now create policies and do even set level masking, dynamic masking. But most organisations have more than snowflake. So what we are starting to see all around here is that there's a whole series of data catalogue companies, a bunch of companies that are doing dynamic data masking security and governance data observe ability, which is not a space snowflake has gone into. So there's a whole ecosystem of companies that that is mushrooming, although, you know so they're using the native capabilities of snowflake, but they are at a level higher. So if you have a data lake and a cloud data warehouse and you have other, like relational databases, you can run these cross platform capabilities in that layer. So so that way, you know, snowflakes done a great job of enabling that ecosystem about >>the stream lit acquisition. Did you see anything here that indicated there making strong progress there? Are you excited about that? You're sceptical. Go ahead. >>And I think it's like the last mile. Essentially. In other words, it's like, Okay, you have folks that are basically that are very, very comfortable with tableau. But you do have developers who don't want to have to shell out to a separate tool. And so this is where Snowflake is essentially working to address that constituency, um, to San James Point. I think part of it, this kind of plays into it is what makes this different from the ado Pere is the fact that this all these capabilities, you know, a lot of vendors are taking it very seriously to make put this native obviously snowflake acquired stream. Let's so we can expect that's extremely capabilities are going to be native. >>And the other thing, too, about the Hadoop ecosystem is Claudia had to help fund all those different projects and got really, really spread thin. I want to ask you guys about this super cloud we use. Super Cloud is this sort of metaphor for the next wave of cloud. You've got infrastructure aws, azure, Google. It's not multi cloud, but you've got that infrastructure you're building a layer on top of it that hides the underlying complexities of the primitives and the a p I s. And you're adding new value in this case, the data cloud or super data cloud. And now we're seeing now is that snowflake putting forth the notion that they're adding a super path layer. You can now build applications that you can monetise, which to me is kind of exciting. It makes makes this platform even less discretionary. We had a lot of talk on Wall Street about discretionary spending, and that's not discretionary. If you're monetising it, um, what do you guys think about that? Is this something that's that's real? Is it just a figment of my imagination, or do you see a different way of coming any thoughts on that? >>So, in effect, they're trying to become a data operating system, right? And I think that's wonderful. It's ambitious. I think they'll experience some success with that. As I said, applications are important. That's a great way to deliver information. You can monetise them, so you know there's there's a good economic model around it. I think they will still struggle, however, with bringing everything together onto one platform. That's always the challenge. Can you become the platform that's hard, hard to predict? You know, I think this is This is pretty exciting, right? A lot of energy, a lot of large ecosystem. There is a network effect already. Can they succeed in being the only place where data exists? You know, I think that's going to be a challenge. >>I mean, the fact is, I mean, this is a classic best of breed versus the umbrella play. The thing is, this is nothing new. I mean, this is like the you know, the old days with enterprise applications were basically oracle and ASAP vacuumed up all these. You know, all these applications in their in their ecosystem, whereas with snowflake is. And if you look at the cloud, folks, the hyper scale is still building out their own portfolios as well. Some are, You know, some hyper skills are more partner friendly than others. What? What Snowflake is saying is that we're going to give all of you folks who basically are competing against the hyper skills in various areas like data catalogue and pipelines and all that sort of wonderful stuff will make you basically, you know, all equal citizens. You know the burden is on you to basically we will leave. We will lay out the A P. I s Well, we'll allow you to basically, you know, integrate natively to us so you can provide as good experience. But the but the onus is on your back. >>Should the ecosystem be concerned, as they were back to reinvent 2014 that Amazon was going to nibble away at them or or is it different? >>I find what they're doing is different. Uh, for example, data sharing. They were the first ones out the door were data sharing at a large scale. And then everybody has jumped in and said, Oh, we also do data sharing. All the hyper scholars came in. But now what snowflake has done is they've taken it to the next level. Now they're saying it's not just data sharing. It's up sharing and not only up sharing. You can stream the thing you can build, test deploy, and then monetise it. Make it discoverable through, you know, through your marketplace >>you can monetise it. >>Yes. Yeah, so So I I think what they're doing is they are taking it a step further than what hyper scale as they are doing. And because it's like what they said is becoming like the data operating system You log in and you have all of these different functionalities you can do in machine learning. Now you can do data quality. You can do data preparation and you can do Monetisation. Who do you >>think is snowflakes? Biggest competitor? What do you guys think? It's a hard question, isn't it? Because you're like because we all get the we separate computer from storage. We have a cloud data and you go, Okay, that's nice, >>but there's, like, a crack. I think >>there's uniqueness. I >>mean, put it this way. In the old days, it would have been you know, how you know the prime household names. I think today is the hyper scholars and the idea what I mean again, this comes down to the best of breed versus by, you know, get it all from one source. So where is your comfort level? Um, so I think they're kind. They're their co op a Titian the hyper scale. >>Okay, so it's not data bricks, because why they're smaller. >>Well, there is some okay now within the best of breed area. Yes, there is competition. The obvious is data bricks coming in from the data engineering angle. You know, basically the snowflake coming from, you know, from the from the data analyst angle. I think what? Another potential competitor. And I think Snowflake, basically, you know, admitted as such potentially is mongo >>DB. Yeah, >>Exactly. So I mean, yes, there are two different levels of sort >>of a on a longer term collision course. >>Exactly. Exactly. >>Sort of service now and in salesforce >>thing that was that we actually get when I say that a lot of people just laughed. I was like, No, you're kidding. There's no way. I said Excuse me, >>But then you see Mongo last week. We're adding some analytics capabilities and always been developers, as you say, and >>they trashed sequel. But yet they finally have started to write their first real sequel. >>We have M c M Q. Well, now we have a sequel. So what >>were those numbers, >>Dave? Two thirds. One third. >>So the hyper scale is but the hyper scale urz are you going to trust your hyper scale is to do your cross cloud. I mean, maybe Google may be I mean, Microsoft, perhaps aws not there yet. Right? I mean, how important is cross cloud, multi cloud Super cloud Whatever you want to call it What is your data? >>Shows? Cloud is important if I remember correctly. Our research shows that three quarters of organisations are operating in the cloud and 52% are operating across more than one cloud. So, uh, two thirds of the organisations are in the cloud are doing multi cloud, so that's pretty significant. And now they may be operating across clouds for different reasons. Maybe one application runs in one cloud provider. Another application runs another cloud provider. But I do think organisations want that leverage over the hyper scholars right they want they want to be able to tell the hyper scale. I'm gonna move my workloads over here if you don't give us a better rate. Uh, >>I mean, I I think you know, from a database standpoint, I think you're right. I mean, they are competing against some really well funded and you look at big Query barely, you know, solid platform Red shift, for all its faults, has really done an amazing job of moving forward. But to David's point, you know those to me in any way. Those hyper skills aren't going to solve that cross cloud cloud problem, right? >>Right. No, I'm certainly >>not as quickly. No. >>Or with as much zeal, >>right? Yeah, right across cloud. But we're gonna operate better on our >>Exactly. Yes. >>Yes. Even when we talk about multi cloud, the many, many definitions, like, you know, you can mean anything. So the way snowflake does multi cloud and the way mongo db two are very different. So a snowflake says we run on all the hyper scalar, but you have to replicate your data. What Mongo DB is claiming is that one cluster can have notes in multiple different clouds. That is right, you know, quite something. >>Yeah, right. I mean, again, you hit that. We got to go. But, uh, last question, um, snowflake undervalued, overvalued or just about right >>in the stock market or in customers. Yeah. Yeah, well, but, you know, I'm not sure that's the right question. >>That's the question I'm asking. You know, >>I'll say the question is undervalued or overvalued for customers, right? That's really what matters. Um, there's a different audience. Who cares about the investor side? Some of those are watching, but But I believe I believe that the from the customer's perspective, it's probably valued about right, because >>the reason I I ask it, is because it has so hyped. You had $100 billion value. It's the past service now is value, which is crazy for this student Now. It's obviously come back quite a bit below its IPO price. So But you guys are at the financial analyst meeting. Scarpelli laid out 2029 projections signed up for $10 billion.25 percent free time for 20% operating profit. I mean, they better be worth more than they are today. If they do >>that. If I If I see the momentum here this week, I think they are undervalued. But before this week, I probably would have thought there at the right evaluation, >>I would say they're probably more at the right valuation employed because the IPO valuation is just such a false valuation. So hyped >>guys, I could go on for another 45 minutes. Thanks so much. David. Tony Sanjeev. Always great to have you on. We'll have you back for sure. Having us. All right. Thank you. Keep it right there. Were wrapping up Day two and the Cube. Snowflake. Summit 2022. Right back. Mm. Mhm.

>>From the cube studios in Palo Alto, in Boston, bringing you data driven insights from the cube and ETR. This is breaking analysis with Dave ante. >>When Frank sluman took service, now public many people undervalued the company, positioning it as just a better help desk tool. You know, it turns out that the firm actually had a massive Tam expansion opportunity in it. SM customer service, HR, logistics, security marketing, and service management. Generally now stock price followed over the years, the stellar execution under Slootman and CFO, Mike scar Kelly's leadership. Now, when they took the reins at snowflake expectations were already set that they'd repeat the feet, but this time, if anything, the company was overvalued out of the gate, the thing is people didn't really better understand the market opportunity this time around, other than that, it was a bet on Salman's track record of execution and on data, pretty good bets, but folks really didn't appreciate that snowflake. Wasn't just a better data warehouse that it was building what they call a data cloud, and we've turned a data super cloud. >>Hello and welcome to this. Week's Wikibon cube insights powered by ETR in this breaking analysis, we'll do four things. First. We're gonna review the recent narrative and concerns about snowflake and its value. Second, we're gonna share survey data from ETR that will confirm precisely what the company's CFO has been telling anyone who will listen. And third, we're gonna share our view of what snowflake is building IE, trying to become the defacto standard data platform, and four convey our expectations for the upcoming snowflake summit. Next week at Caesar's palace in Las Vegas, Snowflake's most recent quarterly results they've been well covered and well documented. It basically hit its targets, which for snowflake investors was bad news wall street piled on expressing concerns about Snowflake's consumption, pricing model, slowing growth rates, lack of profitability and valuation. Given the, given the current macro market conditions, the stock dropped below its IPO offering price, which you couldn't touch on day one, by the way, as the stock opened well above that and, and certainly closed well above that price of one 20 and folks express concerns about some pretty massive insider selling throughout 2021 and early 2022, all this caused the stock price to drop quite substantially. >>And today it's down around 63% or more year to date, but the only real substantive change in the company's business is that some of its largest consumer facing companies, while still growing dialed back, their consumption this past quarter, the tone of the call was I wouldn't say contentious the earnings call, but Scarelli, I think was getting somewhat annoyed with the implication from some analyst questions that something is fundamentally wrong with Snowflake's business. So let's unpack this a bit first. I wanna talk about the consumption pricing on the earnings call. One of the analysts asked if snowflake would consider more of a subscription based model so that they could better weather such fluctuations and demand before the analyst could even finish the question, CFO Scarelli emphatically interrupted and said, no, <laugh> the analyst might as well have asked, Hey Mike, have you ever considered changing your pricing model and screwing your customers the same way most legacy SaaS companies lock their customers in? >>So you could squeeze more revenue out of them and make my forecasting life a little bit easier. <laugh> consumption pricing is one of the things that makes a company like snowflake so attractive because customers is especially large customers facing fluctuating demand can dial and their end demand can dial down usage for certain workloads that are maybe not yet revenue producing or critical. Now let's jump to insider trading. There were a lot of insider selling going on last year and into 2022 now, I mean a lot sloop and Scarelli Christine Kleinman. Mike SP several board members. They sold stock worth, you know, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars or, or more at prices in the two hundreds and three hundreds and even four hundreds. You remember the company at one point was valued at a hundred billion dollars, surpassing the value of service now, which is this stupid at this point in the company's tenure and the insider's cost basis was very often in the single digit. >>So on the one hand, I can't blame them. You know what a gift the market gave them last year. Now also famed investor, Peter Linsey famously said, insiders sell for many reasons, but they only buy for one. But I have to say there wasn't a lot of insider buying of the stock when it was in the three hundreds and above. And so yeah, this pattern is something to watch our insiders buying. Now, I'm not sure we'll keep watching snowflake. It's pretty generous with stock based compensation and insiders still own plenty of stock. So, you know, maybe not, but we'll see in future disclosures, but the bottom line is Snowflake's business. Hasn't dramatically changed with the exception of these large consumer facing companies. Now, another analyst pointed out that companies like snap, he pointed to company snap, Peloton, Netflix, and face Facebook have been cutting back. >>And Scarelli said, and what was a bit of a surprise to me? Well, I'm not gonna name the customers, but it's not the ones you mentioned. So I, I thought I would've, you know, if I were the analyst I would've follow up with, how about Walmart target visa, Amex, Expedia price line, or Uber? Any of those Mike? I, I doubt he would've answered me anything. Anyway, the one thing that Scarelli did do is update Snowflake's fiscal year 2029 outlook to emphasize the long term opportunity that the company sees. This chart shows a financial snapshot of Snowflake's current business using a combination of quarterly and full year numbers in a model of what the business will look like. According to Scarelli in Dave ante with a little bit of judgment in 2029. So this is essentially based on the company's framework. Snowflake this year will surpass 2 billion in revenues and targeting 10 billion by 2029. >>Its current growth rate is 84% and its target is 30% in the out years, which is pretty impressive. Gross margins are gonna tick up a bit, but remember Snowflake's cost a good sold they're dominated by its cloud cost. So it's got a governor. There has to pay AWS Azure and Google for its infrastructure. But high seventies is a, is a good target. It's not like the historical Microsoft, you know, 80, 90% gross margin. Not that Microsoft is there anymore, but, but snowflake, you know, was gonna be limited by how far it can, how much it can push gross margin because of that factor. It's got a tiny operating margin today and it's targeting 20% in 2029. So that would be 2 billion. And you would certainly expect it's operating leverage in the out years to enable much, much, much lower SGNA than the current 54%. I'm guessing R and D's gonna stay healthy, you know, coming in at 15% or so. >>But the real interesting number to watch is free cash flow, 16% this year for the full fiscal year growing to 25% by 2029. So 2.5 billion in free cash flow in the out years, which I believe is up from previous Scarelli forecast in that 10, you know, out year view 2029 view and expect the net revenue retention, the NRR, it's gonna moderate. It's gonna come down, but it's still gonna be well over a hundred percent. We pegged it at 130% based on some of Mike's guidance. Now today, snowflake and every other stock is well off this morning. The company had a 40 billion value would drop well below that midday, but let's stick with the 40 billion on this, this sad Friday on the stock market, we'll go to 40 billion and who knows what the stock is gonna be valued in 2029? No idea, but let's say between 40 and 200 billion and look, it could get even ugly in the market as interest rates rise. >>And if inflation stays high, you know, until we get a Paul Voker like action, which is gonna be painful from the fed share, you know, let's hope we don't have a repeat of the long drawn out 1970s stagflation, but that is a concern among investors. We're gonna try to keep it positive here and we'll do a little sensitivity analysis of snowflake based on Scarelli and Ante's 2029 projections. What we've done here is we've calculated in this chart. Today's current valuation at about 40 billion and run a CAGR through 2029 with our estimates of valuation at that time. So if it stays at 40 billion valuation, can you imagine snowflake grow into a 10 billion company with no increase in valuation by the end, by by 2029 fiscal 2029, that would be a major bummer and investors would get a, a 0% return at 50 billion, 4% Kager 60 billion, 7%. >>Kegar now 7% market return is historically not bad relative to say the S and P 500, but with that kind of revenue and profitability growth projected by snowflake combined with inflation, that would again be a, a kind of a buzzkill for investors. The picture at 75 billion valuation, isn't much brighter, but it picks up at, at a hundred billion, even with inflation that should outperform the market. And as you get to 200 billion, which would track by the way, revenue growth, you get a 30% plus return, which would be pretty good. Could snowflake beat these projections. Absolutely. Could the market perform at the optimistic end of the spectrum? Sure. It could. It could outperform these levels. Could it not perform at these levels? You bet, but hopefully this gives a little context and framework to what Scarelli was talking about and his framework, not with notwithstanding the market's unpredictability you're you're on your own. >>There. I can't help snowflake looks like it's going to continue either way in amazing run compared to other software companies historically, and whether that's reflected in the stock price. Again, I, I, I can't predict, okay. Let's look at some ETR survey data, which aligns really well with what snowflake is telling the street. This chart shows the breakdown of Snowflake's net score and net score. Remember is ETS proprietary methodology that measures the percent of customers in their survey that are adding the platform new. That's the lime green at 19% existing snowflake customers that are ex spending 6% or more on the platform relative to last year. That's the forest green that's 55%. That's a big number flat spend. That's the gray at 21% decreasing spending. That's the pinkish at 5% and churning that's the red only 1% or, or moving off the platform, tiny, tiny churn, subtract the red from the greens and you get a net score that, that, that nets out to 68%. >>That's an, a very impressive net score by ETR standards. But it's down from the highs of the seventies and mid eighties, where high seventies and mid eighties, where snowflake has been since January of 2019 note that this survey of 1500 or so organizations includes 155 snowflake customers. What was really interesting is when we cut the data by industry sector, two of Snowflake's most important verticals, our finance and healthcare, both of those sectors are holding a net score in the ETR survey at its historic range. 83%. Hasn't really moved off that, you know, 80% plus number really encouraging, but retail consumer showed a dramatic decline. This past survey from 73% in the previous quarter down to 54%, 54% in just three months time. So this data aligns almost perfectly with what CFO Scarelli has been telling the street. So I give a lot of credibility to that narrative. >>Now here's a time series chart for the net score and the provision in the data set, meaning how penetrated snowflake is in the survey. Again, net score measures, spending velocity and a specific platform and provision measures the presence in the data set. You can see the steep downward trend in net score this past quarter. Now for context note, the red dotted line on the vertical axis at 40%, that's a bit of a magic number. Anything above that is best in class in our view, snowflake still a well, well above that line, but the April survey as we reported on May 7th in quite a bit of detail shows a meaningful break in the snowflake trend as shown by ETRS call out on the bottom line. You can see a steady rise in the survey, which is a proxy for Snowflake's overall market penetration. So steadily moving up and up. >>Here's a bit of a different view on that data bringing in some of Snowflake's peers and other data platforms. This XY graph shows net score on the vertical axis and provision on the horizontal with the red dotted line. At 40%, you can see from the ETR callouts again, that snowflake while declining in net score still holds the highest net score in the survey. So of course the highest data platforms while the spending velocity on AWS and Microsoft, uh, data platforms, outperforms that have, uh, sorry, while they're spending velocity on snowflake outperforms, that of AWS and, and Microsoft data platforms, those two are still well above the 40% line with a stronger market presence in the category. That's impressive because of their size. And you can see Google cloud and Mongo DB right around the 40% line. Now we reported on Mongo last week and discussed the commentary on consumption models. >>And we referenced Ray Lenchos what we thought was, was quite thoughtful research, uh, that rewarded Mongo DB for its forecasting transparency and, and accuracy and, and less likelihood of facing consumption headwinds. And, and I'll reiterate what I said last week, that snowflake, while seeing demand fluctuations this past quarter from those large customers is, is not like a data lake where you're just gonna shove data in and figure it out later, no schema on, right. Just throw it into the pond. That's gonna be more discretionary and you can turn that stuff off. More likely. Now you, you bring data into the snowflake data cloud with the intent of driving insights, which leads to actions, which leads to value creation. And as snowflake adds capabilities and expands its platform features and innovations and its ecosystem more and more data products are gonna be developed in the snowflake data cloud and by data products. >>We mean products and services that are conceived by business users. And that can be directly monetized, not just via analytics, but through governed data sharing and direct monetization. Here's a picture of that opportunity as we see it, this is our spin on our snowflake total available market chart that we've published many, many times. The key point here goes back to our opening statements. The snowflake data cloud is evolving well beyond just being a simpler and easier to use and more elastic cloud database snowflake is building what we often refer to as a super cloud. That is an abstraction layer that companies that, that comprises rich features and leverages the underlying primitives and APIs of the cloud providers, but hides all that complexity and adds new value beyond that infrastructure that value is seen in the left example in terms of compressed cycle time, snowflake often uses the example of pharmaceutical companies compressing time to discover a drug by years. >>Great example, there are many others this, and, and then through organic development and ecosystem expansion, snowflake will accelerate feature delivery. Snowflake's data cloud vision is not about vertically integrating all the functionality into its platform. Rather it's about creating a platform and delivering secure governed and facile and powerful analytics and data sharing capabilities to its customers, partners in a broad ecosystem so they can create additional value. On top of that ecosystem is how snowflake fills the gaps in its platform by building the best cloud data platform in the world, in terms of collaboration, security, governance, developer, friendliness, machine intelligence, etcetera, snowflake believes and plans to create a defacto standard. In our view in data platforms, get your data into the data cloud and all these native capabilities will be available to you. Now, is that a walled garden? Some might say it is. It's an interesting question and <laugh>, it's a moving target. >>It's definitely proprietary in the sense that snowflake is building something that is highly differentiatable and is building a moat around it. But the more open snowflake can make its platform. The more open source it uses, the more developer friendly and the great greater likelihood people will gravitate toward snowflake. Now, my new friend Tani, she's the creator of the data mesh concept. She might bristle at this narrative in favor, a more open source version of what snowflake is trying to build, but practically speaking, I think she'd recognize that we're a long ways off from that. And I also think that the benefits of a platform that despite requiring data to be inside of the data cloud can distribute data globally, enable facile governed, and computational data sharing, and to a large degree be a self-service platform for data, product builders. So this is how we see snow, the snowflake data cloud vision evolving question is edge part of that vision on the right hand side. >>Well, again, we think that is going to be a future challenge where the ecosystem is gonna have to come to play to fill those gaps. If snowflake can tap the edge, it'll bring even more clarity as to how it can expand into what we believe is a massive 200 billion Tam. Okay, let's close on next. Week's snowflake summit in Las Vegas. The cube is very excited to be there. I'll be hosting with Lisa Martin and we'll have Frank son as well as Christian Kleinman and several other snowflake experts. Analysts are gonna be there, uh, customers. And we're gonna have a number of ecosystem partners on as well. Here's what we'll be looking for. At least some of the things, evidence that our view of Snowflake's data cloud is actually taking shape and evolving in the way that we showed on the previous chart, where we also wanna figure out where snowflake is with it. >>Streamlet acquisition. Remember streamlet is a data science play and an expansion into data, bricks, territory, data, bricks, and snowflake have been going at it for a while. Streamlet brings an open source Python library and machine learning and kind of developer friendly data science environment. We also expect to hear some discussion, hopefully a lot of discussion about developers. Snowflake has a dedicated developer conference in November. So we expect to hear more about that and how it's gonna be leveraging further leveraging snow park, which it has previously announced, including a public preview of programming for unstructured data and data monetization along the lines of what we suggested earlier that is building data products that have the bells and whistles of native snowflake and can be directly monetized by Snowflake's customers. Snowflake's already announced a new workload this past week in security, and we'll be watching for others. >>And finally, what's happening in the all important ecosystem. One of the things we noted when we covered service now, cause we use service now as, as an example because Frank Lupin and Mike Scarelli and others, you know, DNA were there and they're improving on that service. Now in his post IPO, early adult years had a very slow pace. In our view was often one of our criticism of ecosystem development, you know, ServiceNow. They had some niche SI uh, like cloud Sherpa, and eventually the big guys came in and, and, and began to really lean in. And you had some other innovators kind of circling the mothership, some smaller companies, but generally we see sluman emphasizing the ecosystem growth much, much more than with this previous company. And that is a fundamental requirement in our view of any cloud or modern cloud company now to paraphrase the crazy man, Steve bomber developers, developers, developers, cause he screamed it and ranted and ran around the stage and was sweating <laugh> ecosystem ecosystem ecosystem equals optionality for developers and that's what they want. >>And that's how we see the current and future state of snowflake. Thanks today. If you're in Vegas next week, please stop by and say hello with the cube. Thanks to my colleagues, Stephanie Chan, who sometimes helps research breaking analysis topics. Alex, my is, and OS Myerson is on production. And today Andrew Frick, Sarah hiney, Steven Conti Anderson hill Chuck all and the entire team in Palo Alto, including Christian. Sorry, didn't mean to forget you Christian writer, of course, Kristin Martin and Cheryl Knight, they helped get the word out. And Rob ho is our E IIC over at Silicon angle. Remember, all these episodes are available as podcast, wherever you listen to search breaking analysis podcast, I publish each week on wikibon.com and Silicon angle.com. You can email me directly anytime David dot Valante Silicon angle.com. If you got something interesting, I'll respond. If not, I won't or DM me@deteorcommentonmylinkedinpostsandpleasedocheckoutetr.ai for the best survey data in the enterprise tech business. This is Dave Valante for the insights powered by ETR. Thanks for watching. And we'll see you next week. I hope if not, we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

>> Welcome back to New York City everybody. This is The Cube's coverage of MongoDB World 2022, Dev Ittycheria, here is the president and CEO of MongoDB. Thanks for spending some time with us. >> It's Great to be here Dave, thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome. So your keynotes this morning, I was hearkening back to Steve Ballmer, running around the stage screaming, developers, developers, developers. You weren't jumping around like a madman, but the message was the same. And you've not deviated from that message. I remember when it was 10th Gen, so you've been consistent. >> Yes. >> Why is Mongo DB so alluring to developers? >> Yeah, because I would say the reason we're so popular Dave is that our whole business was founded on the ethos, so making developers incredibly productive. Just getting the infrastructure out of the way so that the developers is really focused on what's important and that's building great applications that transform their business. And the way you do that is you look at where they spend most of the time. and they spend most of the time working with data. How do you present data, the right data, the right time, at the right place, and the right way. And when you remove the friction of working with data, you unleash so much more productivity, which people just say, oh my goodness, I can move so much faster. Product leaders can get products out the door faster than the competitors. Senior level executives can seize new opportunities or respond to new threats. And that was so profound during COVID when everyone had to think about pivoting their business. >> When you came to MongoDB, why did you choose this company? What was it that excited you about it? >> I get that question a lot. I would say conventional wisdom would suggest that MongoDB was not a great choice. There weren't that many companies who were very successful in open source, Red Hat was the only one. No one had really built a deep technology company in New York city. They say, you got to do it in the valley. And database companies need a lot of capital. Now turns out that raising capital of this past decade was a lot easier, but it still takes a lot of time, and a lot of capitals, you have to have a lot of patience. When I did my diligence, I was actually a VC before I joined MongoDB. The whole next generation database segment was really taking off. And actually I looked at some competing investments to MongoDB, and when I did my diligence, it was clear even then. And this is circa 2012, that MongoDB is way ahead in terms of customer attraction, commercials, and even kind of developer mind share. And so I ended up passing those investments. and then lo and behold, I got a call from a very senior executive recruiter who said, Dev, you got to take a meeting with MongoDB, there's something really interesting going on. And they had raised a lot of capital and they had just not been able to kind of really execute in terms of the opportunity. And they realized they needed to make a change. And so one thing led to another. One of the things that really actually convinced me, is when I did my diligence, I realized the customers they had loved MongoDB. They just really weren't executing on all cylinders. And I always believe you never bet against a company whose customers love the product. And said, that's something here. The second thing I would say is open source. Yes, is true that open source was not very successful, but that was open source 1.0. Open source 2.0, the technology is much better than the commercial options. And so that convinced me. And then New York, I lived in New York a big part of my life. I think New York's a fabulous place to build a business. There's so much talent, your customers are right... You walk out the door, there's customers all over the place. And getting to Europe is very easy, Almost like flying to the west coast. So it's a very central place to build a business. >> And it's easier to fix execution, wouldn't you say? And maybe even go to market than it is to fix a product that customers really don't love. >> Correct, it's much easier to fix leadership issues, culture issues, execution issues. Nailing product market fit is very, very hard. And there were signs, there's still some issues, there's still some rough spots, but there a lot of signs that this company was very, very close, and that's why I took the bet. >> And this is before there was that huge influx of capital into the separating compute from storage and the whole cloud thing, which is interesting. Because you take a company like Cloudera, they got caught up in that and got kind of washed over. And I guess you could argue Hortonworks did too, and they could have dead ended both. And then that just didn't work. But it's interesting to see Mongo, the market kind of came to you. And that really does speak to the product. It wasn't a barrier for you. You guys have obviously a lot of work to get into the cloud with Atlas, but it seemed like a natural fit with the product. It wasn't like a complete fork. >> Well, I think the challenge that we had was we had a lot of adoption, but we had tough time commercializing the business. And at some point I had to tell the all employees, it's great that we have all these people who are using MongoDB, but if you don't start generating revenue, our investors are going to get tired of subsidizing this company. So I had to try and change the culture. And as you imagine, the engineers didn't really like the salespeople, the salespeople thought the engineers didn't really want to make any money. And what I said, like, let's all galvanize around customers and let's make them really excited and try and create a lot of value. And so we just put a lot more discipline in terms of how we prosecuted deals. We put a lot more discipline in terms of what are the problems we're trying to solve. And one thing led to another, we started building the business brick by brick. And one of the things that became clear for me was that the old open source model of trying to find that happy medium between what you give away and what you charge for, is always a tough game. Like because finding that where the paywall is, if you give away too much new features, you don't make any money. If you don't give away enough, you don't have any adoption. So you're caught in this catch-22. The best way to monetize open source, is open source as a service. And we saw Amazon do that frankly. We learned a lot from how Amazon did that. And one of the advantages that MongoDB had that I didn't fully appreciate when I joined the company, but I was very grateful. It is that they had a much more restrictive license. Which we ended up actually changing and made it even more restrictive, which allowed us to perfect ourselves from being cannibalized by the cloud providers, so that we could build our own business using our own IP that we had invested in and create a cloud service. >> That was a huge milestone. And of course you have great relationships with all the cloud providers, but it got contentious there for a while, but, you give the cloud providers an inch, they're going to take a mile. That's just the way, they're aggressive like that. But thank you for going through the history with me a little bit, because when you go back to the IPO, IPO was 2017, right? >> Correct. >> I always tell young investors, my kids especially, don't buy a stock at IPO, you're going to have a better chance, but the window from Mongo was very narrow. So, you didn't really get a much better chance a little bit. And then it's been a rocket ship since then. Sure, there's been some volatility, but you look at some of the big IPOs, like Facebook, or Snap, or even Snowflake, there was better opportunities. But you guys have executed really, really well. That's part of your ethos in your management team. And it came across on the earnings call recently. >> Yep. >> It was very optimistic, yet at the same time you set cautious tones and you got, I think high marks. >> Yes. >> For some of that caution but that execution. So talk about where you feel the business is today given the economic uncertainty? >> Well, what I'd say is we feel really good about the long term. We feel like the secular trends are really in our favor. Software's fundamentally transforming every industry. And people want to use modern software to either automate inefficient processes, enable new capabilities, drive better customer experiences. And the level of performance and scale you need for today's modern applications is profoundly different than applications yesterday. So we think we're well positioned for that. What we said on the earnings call was that we started seeing a moderation of growth, slight moderation of growth in our low end of the business in Europe. It was in our self-serve business and in the SMB space for the NQ1, towards the end of Q1. And we saw a little bit of that show up in the self-serve business in may in Q2. And that's why while we raised guidance, we basically quantified the impact, which is roughly about 30 to 35 million for the year, based on what we saw. And in that assumption, we assumed like... We just can't assume it's going to only be at the low in the market, probably some effect at the enterprise market. Maybe not as much, but there'll be some effect. So we need to factor that in. And we wanted to help kind of investors have some sort of framework to think about what the impact is. We don't want to be one of those companies that said absolutely nothing. And we don't want to be one of those companies that just waves the hand, but then it wasn't really that useful for investors. >> Yeah, I thought it was substantive. You talked about those market trends, you cited three things. The developers recognize that there are limits to legacy RDBMS. You talked about the, what I call point solutions creep. And then the document model is the best for developers. >> Great. >> And when the conversation turned to consumption, everybody's concerned about consumption obviously. You said... My take, somewhat insulated from that because you're running mission critical apps. It's not discretionary. My question to you is, should we rethink the definition of mission-critical? You think of Oracle mission critical running a bank. Mission -critical today in this digital world seems to be different, is that fair? >> Gosh, when's the last time you ever saw a website down? Like if you're running like any kind of digital channel, or engaging with the customers, or your partners, or your suppliers, you need to be up all the time. And so you need a very resilient, highly available data platform. It needs to be highly performance as you add more users, you need to be scale. And we saw a lot of that when COVID hit. Like companies had to completely repovit. And we talked about some examples where like a health and beauty retailer who was all kind of basically retail, had to suddenly pivot to e-commerce strategy. We've had streaming and gaming companies suddenly saw this massive influx of data that they scaled their operations very, very quickly. So I would say anytime you're engaging with customers, customers they're so used to the kind of the consumer facing applications. I almost joke like slow is the old down. If you're not performant, it doesn't matter. They're going to abandon you and go somewhere else. So if you're an e-commerce site and you're not performing well and not serving up the right skews, depending on what they're looking for, they're going to go somewhere else. >> So it's a click away. You talk about a hundred billion TAM, maybe that's even undercounted as you start to bring new capabilities in there. But there's no lack of market for you. >> Correct. >> How do you think about the market opportunity? >> Well, we believe... Again, software is transforming so many industries. IDC says that 715 million applications will be built over the next two to three years by 2025. To put that number of perspective, that's more apps that will be built the next three to four years than were built in the last 40. The rate and pace of innovation is as exploding. And people are building custom applications. Yes, Workday, Salesforce, other companies, commercial companies are great companies, but my competitors can use Workday or Salesforce, some of those commercial companies. That doesn't gimme a competitive advantage, what gives me a competitive advantage is building custom software that better engage my customers, that transforms my business in adding new capabilities or drives more efficiency. And the applications are only getting smarter. And so you're seeing that innovation explode and that plays to our strength. People need platforms like MongoDB to build the next generation of applications. >> So Atlas is now roughly 60% of your business, think is growing at 85%. So it's at least the midterm future. But my question to you is, is it the future? 'Cause when we start to think about the edge, it's not necessarily the cloud. You're not going to be able to go that round trip and the latency. And we had Verizon on earlier, talking about what they're doing with 5G, and the Mobile Edge. Is Mongo positioning for that edge? And is our definition of cloud changing? Where it's not just OnPrem and across clouds, but it's also out to the edge, this continuous experience. >> So I'll make two points. One, definitely we believe the applications of the future will be mobile first or purely mobile. Because one with the advent of 5G, the distinction between mobile and web is going to blur, with a hundred times faster networking speeds. But the second point I make is that how that shows up on our revenue on our income table will look like Atlas. Because we don't charge nothing for the end point, it's basically driving consumption of the back end. And so we've introduced a bunch of very, very sophisticated capabilities to synchronized data from the edge to the backend and vice versa with things like flexible sync. So we see so many customers now using that capability, whether you're field service technicians, whether you're a mobile first company, et cetera. So that will drive Atlas revenue. So on an income statement, it'll look like Atlas, but we're obviously addressing those broader set of mobile needs. >> You talk a lot about product market fit former VC, of course, Mark Andreen says, product market fit you kind of know when you see it, your hair's on fire, you can't buy a service. How do you know when you have product market fit? >> Well, one, we have the luxury of lots of customers. So they tell us pretty clearly when they're happy, and we can see that by usage behavior. Now the other benefit of a cloud service, is we can see the level of activity. We can see the level of engagement. We can see how much data they're consuming. We can see all the actions they're taking. So you get the fidelity of feedback you get from Atlas versus someone doing something behind their own firewall. And you kind of call 'em and check in on them is very, very different. So that level of insight gives us visibility in terms of what products and features have been used, gives us a sense how things going well, or is there something awry. Maybe they have misconfigured something or they don't know how to use some capabilities. So the level of engagement that we can have with a customer using a service is so much different. And so we've really invested in our customer success organization. So the byproduct of that is that our retention rates are also very, very strong. Because you have such better information about what's happening in terms of your customers. >> See retention in real time. You've been somewhat... Is just so hard to say this 'cause you're growing at 50% a year. But you're somewhat conservative about the pace of hiring for go to market. And I'm curious as to how you think about scaling, especially when you introduce new products. Atlas is several years ago. But as you extend your capabilities and add new products, how do you decide when to scale? >> So it's a constant process. We've been quite aggressive in scaling organization for a couple reasons. One, we have very low market share, so the market's vastly under penetrated. We still don't have reps in every NFL sitting in the United States, which just kind of crazy. There's other parts of the world that we are just still vastly under penetrated in. But we also look at how those organizations are doing. So if we see a team really killing it, we're going to deploy more resources. Because one, it tells us there's more opportunity there, and there's a strong team there. If we see a team that maybe is struggling a little bit, we'll try and uncover. Rather than just applying more resources in, we'll try and uncover what are the issues and make sure we stabilize the organization and then devote resources. It's all in the measure of like being very disciplined about where we deploy our resources, to get those kind of returns. And on the product side, we obviously go through a very iterative process and kind of do rank order all the projects and what we think the expected returns are. Obviously, we look at the customer feedback, we look at what our strategic priorities are. And that informs what projects we fund and what projects kind of are below the line. And we do that over and over again every quarter. So every quarter we revisit the business, we have a very QBR centric culture. So we're constantly checking in and seeing how the business is operating. And then we make those investment decisions. In general, we've been investing very aggressively in terms of expanding our reach around the world. >> It seems like, well, with Mongo, your product portfolios... From an outside observer standpoint, it seems like you've always had pretty good product market fit. But I was curious, in your VC days, would you ever encourage companies to scale go to market prior to having confidence in product market fit? Or did you always see those as sequential activities? >> Well, I think the challenge is this part it's analysis part is judgment. So you don't necessarily have to have perfect product market fit to start investing. But you also don't want to plow a bunch of resources and realize the product doesn't work and then how you're burning through a lot of cash. So there's a little bit of art to the process. When I joined MongoDB, I could tell that we had a strong engineering team. They knew how to build high quality products, but we just struggled with commercialization. The culture wasn't great across the company. And we had some leadership challenges. So that's when I joined, I kind of focused on those things and tried to bring the organization together. And slowly we started chipping away and making people feel like they were winners. And once you start winning, that becomes contagious. And then the nice thing is when you start winning, you get a lot more customer feedback. That feedback helps you refine your products even more, which then adds... It's like the flywheel effect that starts taking off. >> So it seems the culture's working now. Do you have a favorite product from the announcements today? >> Well, I really like our foray to analytics. And essentially what we're seeing is really two big trends. One you're seeing applications get smarter. What applications are doing is really automating a lot of processes and rather than someone having to press a button. Based on analytics, you can automate a lot of decision making. So that's one theme that we're seeing as applications get smarter. The second theme is that people want more and more insight in terms of what's happening. And the source of that is insights is your operational database. Because that's where you're having transactions, that's where you know what products are selling, that's where you know what customers are buying. So people want more and more real time data versus waiting to take that data, put it somewhere else and then run reports and then get some update at the end of the night or maybe at the week. So that's driving a lot of really interesting use cases. And especially when you marry in things like time series use cases where you're collecting a lot of data people want to see trend analysis what's happening. Which I think it's a very exciting area. We introduced a very cool feature called Queryable Encryption, which basically... The problem with encrypting data, is you can't really query it because my definition's encrypted. >> Yeah, you're right. >> But obviously data security is very important. What we announced, is we're using very sophisticated cryptography. People can query the data, but they don't have really access to the data. So it really protects you from like data breaches or malicious users accessing your data, but you still can kind of make that data usable. So that was a very interesting announcer that we made today. >> Sounds like magic without the performance hit. >> Yes. >> You can do that. Dev, thanks so much for coming in The Cube. Congratulations on all activity, bumper sticker on day one. >> Oh, it's super exciting. The energy was palpable, 3,300 people in the room, lots of customers, lots of users. We had lots of investors here as well for our investor day, have a dinner tonight with a bunch of senior execs, so it's been a busy day. >> Future is bright for MongoBD. Dev, thanks for so much for coming on The Cube. And thanks for watching, this is Dave Vellante and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>>Welcome back to the big apple, everybody. The Cube's continuous coverage here of MongoDB world 2022. We're at the new Javet center. It's it's quite nice. It was built during the pandemic. I believe on top of a former bus terminal. I'm told by our next guest Tony bear, who's the principal at DB insight of data and database expert, longtime analyst, Tony. Good to see you. Thanks for coming >>On. Thanks >>For having us. You face to face >>And welcome to New York. >>Yeah. Right. >>New York is open for business. >>So, yeah. And actually, you know, it's interesting. We've been doing a lot of these events lately and, and especially the ones in Vegas, it's the first time everybody's been out, you know, face to face, not so much here, you know, people have been out and about a lot of masks >>In, >>In New York city, but, but it's good. And, and this new venue is fantastic >>Much nicer than the old Javits. >>Yeah. And I would say maybe 3000 people here. >>Yeah. Probably, but I think like most conferences right now are kind of, they're going through like a slow ramp up. And like for instance, you know, sapphires had maybe about one third, their normal turnout. So I think that you're saying like one third to one half seems to be the norm right now are still figuring out how we're, how and where we're gonna get back together. Yeah. >>I think that's about right. And, and I, but I do think that that in most of the cases that we've seen, it's exceeded people's expectations at tenants, but anyway sure. Let's talk about Mongo, very interesting company. You know, we've been kind of been watching their progression from just sort of document database and all the features and functions they're adding, you just published a piece this morning in venture beat is time for Mongo to get into analytics. Yes. You know? Yes. One of your favorite topics. Well, can they expand analytics? They seem to be doing that. Let's dig into it. Well, >>They're taking, they've been taking slow. They've been taking baby steps and there's good reason for that because first thing is an operational database. The last thing you wanna do is slow it down with very complex analytics. On the other hand, there's huge value to be had if you would, if you could, you know, turn, let's say a smart, if you can turn, let's say an operational database or a transaction database into a smart transaction database. In other words, for instance, you know, let's say if you're, you're, you're doing, you know, an eCommerce site and a customer has made an order, that's basically been out of the norm. Whether it be like, you know, good or bad, it would be nice. Basically, if at that point you could then have a next best action, which is where analytics comes in. But it's a very lightweight form of analytics. It's not gonna, it's actually, I think probably the best metaphor for this is real time credit scoring. It's not that they're doing your scoring you in real time. It's that the model has been computed offline so that when you come on in real time, it can make a smart decision. >>Got it. Okay. So, and I think it was your article where I, I wrote down some examples. Sure. Operational, you know, use cases, patient data. There's certainly retail. We had Forbes on earlier, right? Obviously, so very wide range of, of use cases for operational will, will Mongo, essentially, in your view, is it positioned to replace traditional R D BMS? >>Well, okay. That's a long that's, that's much, it's >>Sort of a loaded question, but >>That's, that's a very loaded question. I think that for certain cases, I think it will replace R D BMS, but I still, I mean, where I, where I depart from Mongo is I do not believe that they're going to replace all R D D BMSs. I think, for instance, like when you're doing financial transactions, you know, the world has been used to table, you know, you know, columns and rows and tables. That's, it's a natural form for something that's very structured like that. On the other hand, when you take a look, let's say OT data, or you're taking a look at home listings that tends to more naturally represent itself as documents. And so there's a, so it's kind of like documents are the way that let's say you normally see the world. Relational is the way that you would structure the world. >>Okay. Well, I like that. So, but I mean, in the early days, obviously, and even to this day, it's like the target for Mongo has been Oracle. Yeah. Right, right. And so, and then, you know, you talk to a lot of Oracle customers as do I sure. And they are running the most mission, critical applications in the world, and it's like banking and financial and so many. And, and, and, you know, they've kind of carved out that space, but are we, should we be rethinking the definition of, of mission critical? Is that changing? >>Well, number one, I think what we've traditionally associated mission critical systems with is our financial transaction systems and to a less, and also let's say systems that schedule operations. But the fact is there are many forms of operations where for instance, let's say you're in a social network, do you need to have that very latest update? Or, you know, basically, can you go off, let's say like, you know, a server that's eventually consistent. In other words, the, do you absolutely have, you know, it's just like when you go on Twitter, do you naturally see all the latest tweets? It's not the system's not gonna crash for that reason. Whereas let's say if you're doing it, you know, let's say an ATM banking ATM system, that system better be current. So I think there's a delineation. The fact is, is that in a social network, arguably that operational system is mission critical, but it's mission critical in a different way from a, you know, from, let's say a banking system. >>So coming back to this idea of, of this hybrid, I think, you know, I think Gartner calls it H tab hybrid, transactional analytics >>Is changed by >>The minute, right. I mean, you mentioned that in, in your article, but basically it's bringing analytics to transactions bringing those, those roles together. Right. Right. And you're saying with Mongo, it's, it's lightweight now take, you use two other examples in your article, my SQL heat wave. Right. I think you had a Google example as well, DB, those are, you're saying much, much heavier analytics, is that correct? Or >>I we'll put it this way. I think they're because they're coming from a relational background. And because they also are coming from companies that already have, you know, analytic database or data warehouses, if you will, that their analytic, you know, capabilities are gonna be much more fully rounded than what Mongo has at this point. It's not a criticism of a Mongo MongoDB per >>Per, is that by design though? Or ne not necessarily. Is that a function of maturity? >>I think it's function of maturity. Oh, okay. I mean, look, to a certain extent, it's also a function of design in terms of that the document model is a little, it's not impossible to basically model it for analytics, but it takes more, you know, transformation to, to decide which, you know, let's say field in that document is gonna be a column. >>Now, the big thing about some of these other, these hybrid systems is, is eliminating the need for two databases, right? Eliminating the need for, you know, complex ETL. Is, is that a value proposition that will emerge with, with Mongo in your view? >>You know, I, I mean, put it this way. I think that if you take a look at how they've, how Mongo is basically has added more function to its operations, someone talking about analytics here, for instance, adding streaming, you know, adding, adding, search, adding time series, that's a matter of like where they've eliminated the need to do, you know, transformation ETL, but that's not for analytics per se for analytics. I think through, you know, I mean through replication, there's still gonna be some transformation in terms of turning, let's say data, that's, that's formed in a document into something that's represented by columns. There is a form of transformation, you know, so that said, and Mongo is already, you know, it has some NA you know, nascent capability there, but it's all, but this is still like at a rev 1.0 level, you know, I expect a lot more >>Of so refin you, how Amazon says in the fullness of time, all workloads will be in the cloud. And we could certainly debate that. What do we mean by cloud? So, but there's a sort of analog for Mongo that I'll ask you in the fullness of time, will Mongo be in a position to replace data warehouses or data lakes? No. Or, or, or, and we know the answer is no. So that's of course, yeah. But are these two worlds on a quasi collision course? I think they >>More on a convergence course or the collision course, because number one is I said, the first principle and operational database is the last thing you wanna do is slow it down. And to do all this complex modeling that let's say that you would do in a data bricks, or very complex analytics that you would do in a snowflake that is going to get, you know, you know, no matter how much you partition the load, you know, in Atlas, and yes, you can have separate nodes. The fact is you really do not wanna burden the operational database with that. And that's not what it's meant for, but what it is meant for is, you know, can I make a smart decision on the spot? In other words, kinda like close the loop on that. And so therefore there's a, a form of lightweight analytic that you can perform in there. And actually that's also the same principle, you know, on which let's say for instance, you know, my SQL heat wave and Allo DBR based on, they're not, they're predicated on, they're not meant to replace, you know, whether it be exit data or big query, the idea there is to do more of the lightweight stuff, you know, and keep the database, you know, keep the operations, you know, >>Operating. And, but from a practitioner's standpoint, I, I, I can and should isolate you're saying that node, right. That's what they'll do. Sure. How does that affect cuz my understanding is that that the Mon Mongo specifically, but I think document databases generally will have a primary node. Right? And then you can set up secondary nodes, which then you have to think about availability, but, but would that analytic node be sort of fenced off? Is that part of the >>Well, that's actually what they're, they've already, I mean, they already laid the groundwork for it last year, by saying that you can set up separate nodes and dedicate them to analytics and what they've >>As, as a primary, >>Right? Yes, yes. For analytics and what they've added, what they're a, what they are adding this year is the fact to say like that separate node does not have to be the same instance class, you know, as, as, as, as the, >>What, what does that mean? Explain >>That in other words, it's a, you know, you could have BA you know, for instance, you could have a node for operations, that's basically very eye ops intensive, whereas you could have a node let's say for analytics that might be more compute intensive or, or more he, or, or more heavily, you know, configured with, with memory per se. And so the idea here is you can tailor in a node to the workload. So that's, you know what they're saying with, you know, and I forget what they're calling it, but the idea that you can have a different type, you can specify a different type of node, a different type of instance for the analytic node, I think is, you know, is a major step forward >>And that, and that that's enabled by the cloud and architecture. >>Of course. Yes. I mean, we're separating, compute from data is, is, is the starter. And so yeah. Then at that point you can then start to, you know, you know, to go less vanilla. I think, you know, the re you know, the, you know, the, I guess the fruition of this is going to be when they say, okay, you can run your, let's say your operational nodes, you know, dedicated, but we'll let you run your analytic nodes serverless. Can't do it yet, but I've gotta believe that's on the roadmap. >>Yeah. So seq brings a lot of overhead. So you get MQL, but now square this circle for me, cuz now you got Mago talking sequel. >>They had to start doing that some time. I mean, and I it's been a court take I've had from them from the, from the get go, which I said, I understand that you're looking at this as an alternative to SQL and that's perfectly valid, but don't deny the validity of SQL or the reason why we, you know, we need it. The fact is that you have, okay, the number, you know, according to Ty index, JavaScript is the seventh, most popular language. Most SQL follows closely behind at the ninth, most popular language you don't want to cl. And the fact is those people exist in the enterprise and they're, and they're disproportionately concentrated in analytics. I mean, you know, it's getting a little less, so now we're seeing like, you know, basically, you know, Python, the programmatic, but still, you know, a lot of sequel expertise there. It does not make, it makes no sense for Mongo to, to, to ignore or to overlook that audience. I think now they're, you know, you know, they're taking baby steps to start, you know, reaching out to them. >>It's interesting. You see it going both ways. See Oracle announces a Mongo, DB, Mongo. I mean, it's just convergence. You called it not, I love collisions, you know, >>I know it's like, because you thrive on drama and I thrive on can't. We all love each other, but you know, act. But the thing is actually, I've been, I wrote about this. I forget when I think it was like 2014 or 2016. It's when we, I was noticed I was noting basically the, you know, the rise of all these specialized databases and probably Amazon, you know, AWS is probably the best exemplar of that. I've got 15 or 16 or however, number of databases and they're all dedicated purpose. Right. But I also was, you know, basically saw that inevitably there was gonna be some overlap. It's not that all databases were gonna become one and the same we're gonna be, we're gonna become back into like the, you know, into a pan G continent or something like that. But that you're gonna have a relational database that can do JSON and, and a, and a document database that can do relational. I mean, you know, it's, to me, that's a no brainer. >>So I asked Andy Ja one time, I'd love to get your take on this, about those, you know, multiple data stores at the time. They probably had a thousand. I think they're probably up to 15 now, right? Different APIs, different S et cetera. And his response. I said, why don't you make it easier for, for customers and maybe build an abstraction or converge these? And he said, well, it's by design. What if you buy this? And, and what your thoughts are, cuz I, you know, he's a pretty straight shooter. Yeah. It's by design because it allows us as the market moves, we can move with it. And if we, if we give developers access to those low level primitives and APIs, then they can move with, with at market speed. Right. And so that again, by design, now we heard certainly Mongo poo pooing that today they didn't mention, they didn't call out Amazon. Yeah. Oracle has no compunction about specifically calling out Amazon. They do it all the time. What do you make of that? Can't Amazon have its cake and eat it too. In other words, extend some of the functionality of those specific databases without going to the Swiss army. >>I I'll put it this way. You, you kind of tapped in you're, you're sort of like, you know, killing me softly with your song there, which is that, you know, I was actually kind of went on a rant about this, actually know in, you know, come, you know, you know, my year ahead sort of out predictions. And I said, look, cloud folks, it's great that you're making individual SAS, you know, products easy to use. But now that I have to mix and match SAS products, you know, the burden of integration is on my shoulders. Start making my life easier. I think a good, you know, a good example of this would be, you know, for instance, you could take something like, you know, let's say like a Google big query. There's no reason why I can't have a piece of that that might, you know, might be paired, say, you know, say with span or something like that. >>The idea being is that if we're all working off a common, you know, common storage, we, you know, it's in cloud native, we can separate the computer engines. It means that we can use the right engine for the right part of the task. And the thing is that maybe, you know, myself as a consumer, I should not have to be choosing between big query and span. But the thing is, I should be able to say, look, I want to, you know, globally distribute database, but I also wanna do some analytics and therefore behind the scenes, you know, new microservices, it could connect the two wouldn't >>Microsoft synapse be an example of doing that. >>It should be an example. I wish I, I would love to hear more from Microsoft about this. They've been radio silent for about the past two or three years in data. You hardly hear about it, but synapse is actually those actually one of the ideas I had in mind now keep in mind that with synapse, you're not talking about, let's say, you know, I mean, it's, it's obviously a sequel data warehouse. It's not pure spark. It's basically their, it was their curated version of spark, but that's fine. But again, I would love to hear Microsoft talk more about that. They've been very quiet. >>Yeah. You, you, the intent is there to >>Simplify >>It exactly. And create an abstraction. Exactly. Yeah. They have been quiet about it. Yeah. Yeah. You would expect that, that maybe they're still trying to figure it out. So what's your prognosis from Mongo? I mean, since this company IP, you know, usually I, I tell and I tell everybody this, especially my kids, like don't buy a stock at IPO. You'll always get a better chance at a cheaper price to buy it. Yeah. And even though that was true with Mongo, you didn't have a big window. No. Like you did, for instance, with, with Facebook, certainly that's been the case with snowflake and sure. Alibaba, I mean, I name a zillion style was almost universal. Yeah. But, but since that, that, that first, you know, few months, period, this, this company has been on a roll. Right. And it, it obviously has been some volatility, but the execution has been outstanding. >>No question about that. I mean, the thing is, look what I, what I, and I'm just gonna talk on the product side on the sales side. Yeah. But on the product side, from the get go, they made a product that was easy for developers. Whereas let's say someone's giving an example, for instance, Cosmo CB, where to do certain operations. They had to go through multiple services in, you know, including Azure portal with Atlas, it's all within Atlas. So they've really, it's been kinda like design thinking from the start initially with, with the core Mongo DB, you know, you, the on premise, both this predates Atlas, I mean, part of it was that they were coming with a language that developers knew was just Javas script. The construct that they knew, which was JS on. So they started with that home core advantage, but they weren't the only ones doing that. But they did it with tooling that was very intuitive to developers that met developers, where they lived and what I give them, you know, then additional credit for is that when they went to the cloud and it wasn't an immediate thing, Atlas was not an overnight success, but they employed that same design thinking to Atlas, they made Atlas a good cloud experience. They didn't just do a lift and shift the cloud. And so that's why today basically like five or six years later, Atlas's most of their business. >>Yeah. It's what, 60% of the business now. Yeah. And then Dave, on the, on the earning scholar, maybe it wasn't Dave and somebody else in response to question said, yeah, ultimately this is the future will be be 90% of the business. I'm not gonna predict when. So my, my question is, okay, so let's call that the midterm midterm ATLA is gonna be 90% of the business with some exceptions that people just won't move to the cloud. What's next is the edge. A new opportunity is Mongo architecturally suited for the, I mean, it's certainly suited for the right, the home Depot store. Sure. You know, at the edge. Yeah. If you, if you consider that edge, which I guess it is form of edge, but how about the far edge EVs cell towers, you know, far side, real time, AI inferencing, what's the requirement there, can Mongo fit there? Any thoughts >>On that? I think the AI and the inferencing stuff is interesting. It's something which really Mongo has not tackled yet. I think we take the same principle, which is the lightweight stuff. In other words, you'll say, do let's say a classification or a prediction or some sort of prescriptive action in other words, where you're not doing some convolution, neural networking and trying to do like, you know, text, text to voice or, or, or vice versa. Well, you're not trying to do all that really fancy stuff. I think that's, you know, if you're keeping it SIM you know, kinda like the kiss principle, I think that's very much within Mongo's future. I think with the realm they have, they basically have the infrastructure to go out to the edge. I think with the fact that they've embraced GraphQL has also made them a lot more extensible. So I think they certainly do have, you know, I, I do see the edge as being, you know, you know, in, in, you know, in their, in their pathway. I do see basically lightweight analytics and lightweight, let's say machine learning definitely in their >>Future. And, but, and they would, would you agree that they're in a better position to tap that opportunity than say a snowflake or an Oracle now maybe M and a can change that. R D can maybe change that, but fundamentally from an architectural standpoint yeah. Are they in a better position? >>Good question. I think that that Mongo snowflake by virtual fact, I mean that they've been all, you know, all cloud start off with, I think makes it more difficult, not impossible to move out to the edge, but it means that, and I, and know, and I, and I said, they're really starting to making some tentative moves in that direction. I'm looking forward to next week to, you know, seeing what, you know, hearing what we're gonna, what they're gonna be saying about that. But I do think, right. You know, you know, to answer your question directly, I'd say like right now, I'd say Mongo probably has a, you know, has a head start there. >>I'm losing track of time. I could go forever with you. Tony bear DB insight with tons of insights. Thanks so much for coming back with. >>It's only one insight insight, Dave. Good to see you again. All >>Right. Good to see you. Thank you. Okay. Keep it right there. Right back at the Java center, Mongo DB world 2022, you're watching the cube.

>>Welcome back to NYC the Cube's coverage of Mongo DB 2022, a few thousand people here at least bigger than many people, perhaps expected, and a lot of buzz going on and we're gonna talk devs. I'm really excited to welcome back. Robbie Bellson who's the developer relations lead at Verizon and Ian Massingham. Who's the vice president of developer relations at Mongo DB Jens. Good to see you. Great >>To be here. >>Thanks having you. So Robbie, we just met a few weeks ago at the, the red hat summit in Boston and was blown away by what Verizon is doing in, in developer land. And of course, Ian, you know, Mongo it's rayon Detra is, is developers start there? Why is Mongo so developer friendly from your perspective? >>Well, it's been the ethos of MongoDB since day one. You know, back when we launched the first version of MongoDB back in 2009, we've always been about making developers lives easier. And then in 2016, we announced and released MongoDB Atlas, which is our cloud managed service for MongoDB, you know, starting with a small number of regions built on top of AWS and about 2,500 adoption events per week for MongoDB Atlas. After the first year today, MongoDB Atlas provides a managed service for MongoDB developers around the world. We're present in almost a hundred cloud regions across S DCP and Azure. And that adoption number is now running at about 25,000 developers a week. So, you know, the proof are in proof is really in the metrics. MongoDB is an incredibly popular platform for developers that wanna build data-centric applications. You just can't argue with the metrics really, >>You know, Ravi, sometimes there's an analyst who come up with these theories and one of the theories I've been spouting for a long time is that developers are gonna win the edge. And now to, to see you at Verizon building out this developer community was really exciting to me. So explain how you got this started with this journey. >>Absolutely. As you think about Verizon 5g edge or mobile edge computing portfolio, we knew from the start that developers would play a central role and not only consuming the service, but shaping the roadmap for what it means to build a 5g future. And so we started this journey back in late 20, 19 and fast forward to about a year ago with Mongo, we realized, well, wait a minute, you look at the core service offerings available at the edge. We didn't know really what to do with data. We wanted to figure it out. We wanted the vote of confidence from developers. So there I was in an apartment in Colorado racing, your open source Mongo against that in the region edge versus region, what would you see? And we saw tremendous performance improvements. It was so much faster. It's more than 40% faster for thousands and thousands of rights. And we said, well, wait a minute. There's something here. So what often starts is an organic developer, led intuition or hypothesis can really expand to a much broader go to market motion that really brings in the enterprise. And that's been our strategy from day one. Well, >>It's interesting. You talk about the performance. I, I just got off of a session talking about benchmarks in the financial services industry, you know, amazing numbers. And that's one of the hallmarks of, of Mongo is it can play in a lot of different places. So you guys both have developer relations in your title. Is that how you met some formal developer relations? >>We were a >>Program. >>Yeah, I would say that Verizon is one of the few customers that we also collaborate with on a developer relations effort. You know, it's in our mutual best interest to try to drive MongoDB consumption amongst developers using Verizon's 5g edge network and their platform. So of course we work together to help, to increase awareness of MongoDB amongst mobile developers that want to use that kind of technology. >>But so what's your story on this? >>I mean, as I, as I mentioned, everything starts with an organic developer discovery. It all started. I just cold messaged a developer advocate on Twitter and here we are at MongoDB world. It's amazing how things turn out. But one of the things that's really resonated with me as I was speaking with one of, one of your leads within your organization, they were mentioning that as Mongo DVIA developed over the years, the mantra really became, we wanna make software development easy. Yep. And that really stuck with me because from a network perspective, we wanna make networking easy. Developers are not gonna care about the internals of 5g network. In fact, they want us to abstract away those complexities so that they can focus on building their apps. So what better co-innovation opportunity than taking MongoDB, making software easy, and we make the network easy. >>So how do you think about the edge? How does you know variety? I mean, to me, you know, there's a lot of edge use cases, you know, think about the home Depot or lows. Okay, great. I can put like a little mini data center in there. That's cool. That's that's edge. Like, but when I think of Verizon, I mean, you got cell towers, you've got the far edge. How do you think about edge Robbie? >>Well, the edge is a, I believe a very ambiguous term by design. The edge is the device, the mobile device, an IOT device, right? It could be the radio towers that you mentioned. It could be in the Metro edge. The CDN, no one edge is better than the other. They're all just serving different use cases. So when we talk about the edge, we're focused on the mobile edge, which we believe is most conducive to B2B applications, a fleet of IOT devices that you can control a manufacturing plant, a fleet of ground and aerial robotics. And in doing so you can create a powerful compute mesh where you could have a private network and private mobile edge computing by way of say an AWS outpost and then public mobile edge computing by way of AWS wavelength. And why keep them separate. You could have a single compute mesh even with MongoDB. And this is something that we've been exploring. You can extend Atlas, take a cluster, leave it in the region and then use realm the mobile portfolio and spread it all across the edge. So you're creating that unified compute and data mesh together. >>So you're describing what we've been expecting is a new architecture emerging, and that's gonna probably bring new economics of new use cases, right? Where are we today in that first of all, is that a reasonable premise that this is a sort of a new architecture that's being built out and where are we in that build out? How, how do you think about the, the future of >>That? Absolutely. It's definitely early days. I think we're still trying to figure it out, but the architecture is definitely changing the idea to rip out a mobile device that was initially built and envisioned for the device and only for the device and say, well, wait a minute. Why can't it live at the edge? And ultimately become multi-tenant if that's the data volume that may be produced to each of those edge zones with hypothesis that was validated by developers that we continue to build out, but we recognize that we can't, we can't get that static. We gotta keep evolving. So one of our newest ideas as we think about, well, wait a minute, how can Mongo play in the 5g future? We started to get really clever with our 5g network APIs. And I, I think we talked about this briefly last time, 5g, programmability and network APIs have been talked about for a while, but developers haven't had a chance to really use them and our edge discovery service answering the question in this case of which database is the closest database, doesn't have to be invoked by the device anymore. You can take a thin client model and invoke it from the cloud using Atlas functions. So we're constantly permuting across the entire portfolio edge or otherwise for what it means to build at the edge. We've seen such tremendous results. >>So how does Mongo think about the edge and, and, and playing, you know, we've been wondering, okay, which database is actually gonna be positioned best for the edge? >>Well, I think if you've got an ultra low latency access network using data technology, that adds latency is probably not a great idea. So MongoDB since the very formative years of the company and product has been built with performance and scalability in mind, including things like in memory storage for the storage engine that we run as well. So really trying to match the performance characteristics of the data infrastructure with the evolution in the mobile network, I think is really fundamentally important. And that first principles build of MongoDB with performance and scalability in mind is actually really important here. >>So was that a lighter weight instance of, of Mongo or not >>Necessarily? No, not necessarily. No, no, not necessarily. We do have edge cashing with realm, the mobile databases Robbie's already mentioned, but the core database is designed from day one with those performance and scalability characteristics in mind, >>I've been playing around with this. This is kind of a, I get a lot of heat for this term, but super cloud. So super cloud, you might have data on Preem. You might have data in various clouds. You're gonna have data out at the edge. And, and you've got an abstraction that allows a developer to, to, to tap services without necessarily if, if he or she wants to go deep into the S great, but then there's a higher level of services that they can actually build for their customers. So is that a technical reality from a developer standpoint, in your view, >>We support that with the Mongo DB multi-cloud deployment model. So you can place Mongo DB, Atlas nodes in any one of the three hyperscalers that we mentioned, AWS, GCP or Azure, and you can distribute your data across nodes within a cluster that is spread across different cloud providers. So that kinds of an kind of answers the question about how you do data placement inside the MongoDB clustered environment that you run across the different providers. And then for the abstraction layer. When you say that I hear, you know, drivers ODMs the other intermediary software components that we provide to make developers more productive in manipulating data in MongoDB. This is one of the most interesting things about the technology. We're not forcing developers to learn a different dialect or language in order to interact with MongoDB. We meet them where they are by providing idiomatic interfaces to MongoDB in JavaScript in C sharp, in Python, in rust, in that in fact in 12 different pro programming languages that we support as a first party plus additional community contributed programming languages that the community have created drivers for ODMs for. So there's really that model that you've described in hypothesis exist in reality, using >>Those different Compli. It's not just a series of siloed instances in, >>In different it's the, it's the fabric essentially. Yeah. >>What, what does the Verizon developer look like? Where does that individual come from? We talked about this a little bit a few weeks ago, but I wonder if you could describe it. >>Absolutely. My view is that the Verizon or just mobile edge ecosystem in general for developers are present at this very conference. They're everywhere. They're building apps. And as Ian mentioned, those idiomatic interfaces, we need to take our network APIs, take the infrastructure that's being exposed and make sure that it's leveraging languages, frameworks, automation, tools, the likes of Terraform and beyond. We wanna meet developers where they are and build tools that are easy for them to use. And so you had talked about the super cloud. I often call it the cloud continuum. So we, we took it P abstraction by abstraction. We started with, will it work in one edge? Will it work in multiple edges, public and private? Will it work in all of the edges for a given region, public or private, will it work in multiple regions? Could it work in multi clouds? We've taken it piece by piece by piece and in doing so abstracting way, the complexity of the network, meaning developers, where they are providing those idiomatic interfaces to interact with our API. So think the edge discovery, but not in a silo within Atlas functions. So the way that we're able to converge portfolios, using tools that dev developers already use know and love just makes it that much easier. Do, >>Do you feel like I like the cloud continuum cause that's really what it is. The super cloud does the security model, how does the security model evolve with that? >>At least in the context of the mobile edge, the attack surface is a lot smaller because it's only for mobile traffic not to say that there couldn't be various configuration and human error that could be entertained by a given application experience, but it is a much more secure and also reliable environment from a failure domain perspective, there's more edge zones. So it's less conducive to a regionwide failure because there's so many more availability zones. And that goes hand in hand with security. Mm. >>Thoughts on security from your perspective, I mean, you added, you've made some announcements this week, the, the, the encryption component that you guys announced. >>Yeah. We, we issued a press release this morning about a capability called queryable encryption, which actually as we record this Mark Porter, our CTO is talking about in his keynote, and this is really the next generation of security for data stored within databases. So the trade off within field level encryption within databases has always been very hard, very, very rigid. Either you have keys stored within your database, which means that your memory, so your data is decrypted while it's resident in memory on your database engine. This allow, of course, allows you to perform query operations on that data. Or you have keys that are managed and stored in the client, which means the data is permanently OBS from the engine. And therefore you can't offload query capabilities to your data platform. You've gotta do everything in the client. So if you want 10 records, but you've got a million encrypted records, you have to pull a million encrypted records to the client, decrypt them all and see performance hit in there. Big performance hit what we've got with queryable encryption, which we announced today is the ability to keep data encrypted in memory in the engine, in the database, in the data platform, issue queries from the client, but use a technology called structural encryption to allow the database engine, to make decisions, operate queries, and find data without ever being able to see it without it ever being decrypted in the memory of the engine. So it's groundbreaking technology based on research in the field of structured encryption with a first commercial database provided to bring this to market. >>So how does the mobile edge developer think about that? I mean, you hear a lot about shifting left and not bolting on security. I mean, is this, is this an example of that? >>It certainly could be, but I think the mobile edge developer still stuck with how does this stuff even work? And I think we need to, we need to be mindful of that as we build out learning journeys. So one of my favorite moments with Mongo was an immersion day. We had hosted earlier last year where we, our, from an enterprise perspective, we're focused on BW BS, but there's nothing stopping us. You're building a B2C app based on the theme of the winner Olympics. At the time, you could take a picture of Sean White or of Nathan Chen and see that it was in fact that athlete and then overlaid on that web app was the number of medals they accrued with the little trumpeteer congratulating you for selecting that athlete. So I think it's important to build trust and drive education with developers with a more simple experience and then rapidly evolve overlaying the features that Ian just mentioned over time. >>I think one of the keys with cryptography is back to the familiar messaging for the cloud offloading heavy lifting. You actually need to make it difficult to impossible for developers to get this wrong, and you wanna make it as easy as possible for developers to deal with cryptography. And that of course is what we're trying to do with our driver technology combined with structure encryption, with query encryption. >>But Robbie, your point is lots of opportunity for education. I mean, I have to say the developers that I work with, it's, I'm, I'm in awe of how they solve problems and I, and the way they solve problems, if they don't know the answer, they figure out how to go get it. So how, how are your two communities and other communities, you know, how are they coming together to, to solve such problems and share whether it's best practices or how do I do this? >>Well, I'm not gonna lie in person. Events are a bunch of fun. And one of the easiest domain knowledge exchange opportunities, when you're all in person, you can ideate, you can whiteboard, you can brainstorm. And often those conversations are what leads to that infrastructure module that an immersion day features. And it's just amazing what in person events can do, but community groups of interest, whether it's a Twitch stream, whether it's a particular code sample, we rely heavily on digital means today to upscale the developer community, but also build on by, by means of a simple port request, introduce new features that maybe you weren't even thinking of before. >>Yeah. You know, that's a really important point because when you meet people face to face, you build a connection. And so if you ask a question, you're more likely perhaps to get an answer, or if one doesn't exist in a, in a search, you know, you, oh, Hey, we met at the, at the conference and let's collaborate on this guys. Congratulations on, on this brave new world. You're in a really interesting spot. You know, developers, developers, developers, as Steve bomber says screamed. And I was glad to see Dave was not screaming and jumping up and down on the stage like that, but, but the message still resonates. So thank you, definitely appreciate. All right, keep it right there. This is Dave ante for the cubes coverage of Mago DB world 2022 from New York city. We'll be right back.

>>Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Cubes. Coverage of Mongo db World 2022. This is the first Mongo live mongo DB World. Since 2019, the Cube has covered a number of of mongo shows actually going back to when the company was called Engine. Some of you may recall Margo since then has done an i p o p o in 2017, it's It's been a rocket ship company. It's up. It'll probably do 1.2 billion in revenue this year. It's got a billion dollars in cash on the balance sheet. Uh, despite the tech clash, it's still got a 19 or $20 million valuation growing above 50% a year. Uh, company just had a really strong quarter, and and there seems to be hitting on all cylinders. My name is Dave Volonte. And here to kick it off with me as Sanjeev Mohan, who was the principal at Sanremo. So great to see you. You become a wonderful cube contributor, Former Gartner analyst. Really sharp? No, the database space in the data space generally really well, so thanks for coming back on >>you. You know, it's just amazing how exciting. The entire data space is like they used to say. Companies are All companies are software companies. All companies are data >>companies, >>so data has become the the foundation. >>They say software is eating the world. Data is eating software and a little little quips here. But this is a good size show. Four or 5000 people? I don't really know exactly. You know the numbers, but it's exciting. And of course, a lot of financial services were here at the Javits Centre. Um, let's let's lay down the basics for people of Mongo, DB is a is a document database, but they've been advancing. That's a document database as an alternative to R D. B M s. Explain that, but explain also how Mongo has broadened its capabilities and serving a lot more use cases. >>So that's my forte is like databases technology. But before even I talk about that, I have to say I am blown away by this mongo db world because mongo db uh, in beckons to all of us during the pandemic has really come of age, and it's a billion dollar company. Now we are in this brand new Javits Centre That's been built during the pandemic. And and now the company is holding this event the high 1000 people last year. So I think this company has really grown. And why has it drawn is because its offerings have grown to more developers than just a document database document databases. Revolution revolutionised the whole DBM s space where no sequel came up. Because for a change, you don't need a structured schema. You could start bringing data in this document model scheme, uh, like varying schema. But since then, they've added, uh, things like such. So they have you seen such? They added a geospatial. They had a time series last year, and this year they keep adding more and more so like, for example, they are going to add some column store indexes. So from being a purely transactional, they are now starting to address analytical. And they're starting to address more use cases, like, you know, uh, like what? What was announced this morning at keynote was faceted search. So they're expanding the going deeper and deeper into these other data >>structures. Taking Lucy made a search of first class citizens, but I want to ask you some basic questions about document database. So it's no fixed schemes. You put anything in there? Actually, so more data friendly. They're trying to simplify the use of data. Okay, that's that's pretty clear. >>What are the >>trade offs of a document database? >>So it's not like, you know, one technology has solved every problem. Every technology comes with its own tradeoffs. So in a document, you basically get rid of joining tables with primary foreign keys because you can have a flexible schemer and so and wouldn't sing single document. So it's very easy to write and and search. But when you have a lot of repeated elements and you start getting more and more complex, your document size can start expanding quite a bit because you're trying to club everything into a single space. So So that is where the complexity goes >>up. So what does that mean for for practitioner, it means they have to think about what? How they how they are ultimately gonna structure, how they're going to query so they can get the best performances that right. So they're gonna put some time in up front in order to make it pay back at the tail end, but clearly it's it's working. But is that the correct way of thinking about >>100% in, uh, the sequel world? You didn't care about the sequel. Analytical queries You just cared about how your data model was structured and then sequel would would basically such any model. But in the new sequel world, you have to know your patterns before you. You invest into the database so it's changed that equation where you come in knowing what you are signing up. >>So a couple of questions, if I can kind of Colombo questions so to Margo talks about how it's really supporting mission critical applications and at the same time, my understanding is the architecture of mongo specifically, or a document database in general. But specifically, you've got a a primary, uh, database, and you and that is the sort of the master, if you will, right and then you can create secondaries. But so help me square the circle between mission critical and really maybe a more of a focus on, say, consistency versus availability. Do customers have to sort of think about and design in that availability? How do they do that? How a Mongol customers handling that. >>So I have to say, uh, my experience of mongo db was was that the whole company, the whole ethos was developed a friendly. So, to be honest, I don't think Mongo DB was as much focused on high availability, disaster, recovery, even security. To some extent, they were more focused on developer productivity. >>And you've experienced >>simplicity. Make it simple, make the developers productive as fast as you can. What has really, uh, was an inflexion point for Mongo DB was the launch of Atlas because the atlas they were able to introduce all of these management features and hide it abstracted from the end users. So now they've got, you know, like 2014 is when Atlas came out and it was in four regions. But today they're in 100 regions, so they keep expanding, then every hyper scale cloud provider, and they've abstracted that whole managed. >>So Atlas, of course, is the managed database as a service in the cloud. And so it's those clouds, cloud infrastructure and cloud tooling that has allowed them to go after those high available application. My other question is when you talk about adding search, geospatial time series There are a lot of specialised databases that take time series persons. You have time series specialists that go deep into time series can accompany like Mongo with an all in one strategy. Uh, how close can they get to that functionality? Do they have to be? You know, it's kind of a classic Microsoft, you know, maybe not perfect, but good enough. I mean, can they compete with those other areas? Uh, with those other specialists? And what happens to those specialists if the answer is yes. What's your take on that? If that question >>makes sense So David, this is not a mongo db only issue This is this is an issue with, you know, anytime serious database, any graph database Should I put a graph database or should I put a multifunctional database multidimensional database? And and I really think there is no right or wrong answer. It just really comes down to your use case. If you have an extremely let's, uh, complex graph, you know, then maybe you should go with best of breed purpose built database. But more and more, we're starting to see that organisations are looking to simplify their environment by going in for maybe a unified database that has multiple data structures. Yeah, well, >>it's certainly it's interesting when you hear Mongo speak. They don't They don't call out Oracle specifically, but when they talk about legacy r d m r d B m s that don't scale and are complex and are expensive, they're talking about Oracle first. And of course, there are others. Um, And then when they talk about, uh, bespoke databases the horses for courses, databases that they show a picture of that that's like the poster child for Amazon. Of course, they don't call out Amazon. They're a great partner of Amazon's. But those are really the sort of two areas that mangoes going after, Um, now Oracle. Of course, we'll talk about their converged strategy, and they're taking a similar approach. But so help us understand the difference. There is just because they're sort of or close traditional r d B M s, and they have all the drawbacks associated with that. But by the way, there are some benefits as well. So how do you see that all playing >>out? So you know it. Really, uh, it's coming down to the the origins of these databases. Uh, I think they're converging to a point where they are offering similar services. And if you look at some of the benchmark numbers or you talk to users, I from a business point of view, I I don't think there's too much of a difference. Uh, technology writes. The difference is that Mongo DB started in the document space. They were more interested in availability rather than consistency. Oracle started in the relation database with focus on financial services, so asset compliance is what they're based on. And since then they've been adding other pieces, so so they differ from where they started. Oracle has been in the industry for some since 19 seventies, so they have that maturity. But then they have that legacy, >>you know, I love. Recently, Oracle announced the mongo db uh, kpi. So basically saying why? Why leave Oracle when you can just, you know, do the market? So that, to me, is a sign that Mongo DB is doing well because the Oracle calls you out, whether your workday or snowflake or mongo. You know, whoever that's a sign to me that you've got momentum and you're stealing share in that marketplace, and clearly Mongo is they're growing at 50 plus percent per year. So thinking about the early I mentioned 10 gen Early on, I remember that one of the first conferences I went to mongo conferences. It was just It was all developers. A lot of developers here as well. But they have really, since 2014, expanded the capabilities you talk about, Atlas, you talked about all these other you know, types of databases that they've added. If it seems like Mongo is becoming a platform company, uh, what are your thoughts on that in terms of them sort of up levelling the message there now, a billion dollar plus company. What's the next? You know, wave for Mongo. >>So, uh, Oracle announced mongo db a p i s a W s has document d. B has cost most db so they all have a p. I compatible a p. I s not the source code because, you know, mongo DB has its own SPL licence, so they have written their own layer on top. But at the end of the day, you know, if you if you these companies have to keep innovating to catch up with Mongo DB because we can announce a brand new capability, then all these other players have to catch up. So other cloud providers have 80% or so of capabilities, but they'll never have 100% of what Mongo DB has. So people who are diehard Mongo DB fans they prefer to stay on mongo db. They are now able to write more applications like you know, mongo DB bought realm, which is their front end. Uh, like, you know, like, if you're on social media kind of thing, you can build your applications and sink it with Atlas. So So mongo DB is now at a point where they are adding more capabilities that more like developers like, You know, five G is coming. Autonomous cars are coming, so now they can address Iot kind of use cases. So that's why it's becoming such a juggle, not because it's becoming a platform rather than a single document database. >>So atlases, the near the midterm future. Today it's about 60% of revenues, but they have what we call self serve, which is really the traditional on premise stuff. They're connecting those worlds. You're bringing up the point that. Of course, they go across clouds. You also bring up the point that they've got edge plays. We're gonna talk to Verizon later on today. And they're they've got, uh, edge edge activity going on with developers. I I call it Super Cloud. Right, This layer that floats above. Now, of course, a lot of the super Cloud concert says we're gonna hide the underlying complexity. But for developers, they wanna they might want to tap those primitives, so presumably will let them do that. But But that hybrid that what we call Super Cloud that is a new wave of innovation, is it not? And do you? Do you agree with that? And do you see that as a real opportunity from Mongo in terms of penetrating a new tan? >>Yes. So I see this is a new opportunity. In fact, one of the reasons mongo DB has grown so quickly is because they are addressing more markets than they had three pandemic. Um, Also, there are all gradations of users. Some users want full control. They want an eye as kind of, uh, someone passed. And some businesses are like, you know, we don't care. We don't want to deal with the database. So today we heard, uh, mongo db. Several went gear. So now they have surveillance capability, their past. But if you if you're more into communities, they have communities. Operator. So they're addressing the full stack of different types of developers different workloads, different geographical regions. So that that's why the market is expected. >>We're seeing abstraction layers, you know, throughout the started a physical virtual containers surveillance and eventually SuperClubs Sanjeev. Great analysis. Thanks so much for taking your time to come with the cube. Alright, Keep it right there. But right back, right after this short break. This is Dave Volonte from the Javits Centre. Mongo db World 2022. Thank you. >>Mm.

>>Okay, welcome back everyone. Cube's coverage here. Live on the floor at AWS summit, 2022, an in person event in San Francisco. Of course, AWS summit, 2022 in New York city is coming up this summer. The cube will be there as well. Make sure you check us out then too, but we day two of coverage had a great guest here. I Han VP of developer relations, Mongo DB, formally of AWS. We've been known each other for a long time doing, uh, developer relations at Mongo DB. Welcome to the queue. Good to see >>You. Thank to be here. Thanks for inviting me, John. It's great >>To, so Mongo DB is, um, first of all, stocks' doing really well right now. Businesswise is good, but I still think it's undervalue. A lot of people think is, is a lot more going huge success with Atlas. So congratulations to the team over there. Um, what's the update? What's the relationship withs, you know, guys have been great partners for years. What's the new thing. Yeah. >>So MongoDB Atlas obviously runs on several different major cloud providers, but AWS is the largest partner that we work with in the public cloud. So the majority of our Atlas workloads for our customers are running on the AWS platform. And just earlier this year, we announced a new strategic collaboration agreement with AWS. That's gonna further strengthen and deepen that partnership that we have with them. >>What's the main product value right now on the scale on, on Atlas, what's the drive in the revenue momentum. >>So, I mean, you know, there's a huge trend in the industry towards cloud managed databases, right? You look back 10, 15 years ago when we first met, most customers were only and operating their own data infrastructure, either running it in their own data centers, or maybe if they were really early using the primitives that cloud providers like AWS offered to run their databases in the cloud when Amazon launched RDS back in 2009, I think it was, we started to see this trend towards cloud managed databases. We followed that with our own Atlas offering back in 2016. And as Andy jazzy from AWS would say very often it's offloading that UND differentiated, heavy lifting, allowing developers to focus on building applications. They don't have to win and operate the data infrastructure. We do it for them, and that has proven incredibly popular amongst our customers. You know, Atlas route right now is growing at 50, sorry, 85% car year on year growth. >>You know, um, I've been following MongoDB for a long, long time. I mean, going back to the lamp stack days, you know, and you think about what Mongo has done as a product because of the developer traction, you know, Mongo can't do this, just keeps getting better every year. And, and the, I think the stickiness with developers is a real big part of that. Can you your view there cuz you're in VE relations. I mean, developers all love Mongo. They're teaching in school. People are picking up a side hustles, they're coding on it, using it all everywhere. I mean it's well known. >>There's a few different reasons for that. I think the main one is the, the document orientated model that we use, the document data models that are used by Mongo DB, just a net way for developers to work with data. And then, uh, we've invested in creating 16 first party drivers that allow developers using various different programming languages, whether that's JavaScript or Python or rust to integrate MongoDB, natively and idiomatic with their software. So it's very, very easy for a developer to pick up MongoDB, grab one of these drivers from their package manager of their choice and then build applications that natively manipulate data inside MongoDB, whether that's MongoDB Atlas or our enterprise edition on their own premises. They get a very consistent and very easy to, I easy to use developer experience with our, with our platform. >>Talk about the go to market with AWS. You guys also have a tightly coupled relationships. There's been announcements there recently. Uh, what's changing most right now that people should pay attention to. Well, >>The first thing is there's a huge amount of technical integration between MongoDB and AWS services. And that's the basis for many of our customers choosing to run Mon Mongo DB on AWS. We're active in 23 AWS regions around the world. And there's many other integration points as well, like cryptographic protection of Mongo MongoDB, stored data using Amazon cryptographic services, for example, or building serverless applications with AWS Lambda and MongoDB servers. So there's a ton of technical integration. Yeah, but what we started to work on now is go to market integration with AWS as well. So you can buy Mongo DB Atlas through AWS's marketplace. You can use the payer, you go offering to pay for it with your AWS bill. And then we're collaborating with AWS on migrations and other joint go to market activities as well. That >>Means get incentives, the sales people at AWS. >>Of course our moreover I mean, it's just really easy for customers, really easy for developers to consume. Yeah, they don't need to contract with MongoDB. They can use their existing AWS contracting, their existing discounting relationships and pre purchasing arrangements with AWS to consume Atlas. >>It's the classic meet the customers where they >>Are exactly right. Meet the developer where they are and meet the customers where they are now with this new model as well. >>Yeah. I love marketplace. I think it's been great. You know, even with its kind of catalog and vibe, I think it's gonna get better and better, uh, over there teams doing good work. Um, and it's easy to consume. That's key. >>Yeah. Super easy. Reduce that friction and make it real easy for developers to adopt this. Right. >>Talk about some of the top customers that you guys share with AWS. What are some of the customers you guys have together and what the benefits of the >>Relationship joint references that we talk about? A lot, one of them is Shutterfly. So in the photographic products area, they built a eCommerce offering with MongoDB and AWS. The second is seven 11 with seven 11. We're doing a lot in the mobile space. So edge applications, we've got a feature in MongoDB Atlas that allows you to synchronize data with databases on mobile devices. Those can be phones point of sale devices or handheld devices that might be used in the parcel industry, for example. So seven 11 using us in that way. And then lastly with Pitney Bowes, we've got a big digital transformation project with Pitney Bowes where they've reimagined their, uh, postage and packaging services, delivering those to their customers, using MongoDB as a data store as well. >>I wanna get in some of the trends, you've got a great per you know, you know, Mongo from Amazon side and now you're there. Um, Mongo's, as you pointed out has, has been around for a long time. What are some of the stats? I mean, how many customers, how many countries? Well, it's pretty massive >>Mind. We've got almost quarter of a billion downloads today, 240 million MongoDB downloads since we launched the first product <laugh>, we've got 33,000 active customers that are using MongoDB Atlas today and we're running well over a million free tier clusters on MongoDB Atlas across all of the different providers where we operate the service as well. So these numbers are, you know, mind blowing in terms of scale. Uh, but of course at the core of that is operational excellence. Customers love Mongo DBS because they don't have to operate it themselves. They don't have to deal with fairly conditions. They don't have to deal with scaling. They don't have to deal with deployment. We all, we do all of those things as part of the service offering and customers get an endpoint that they can use with their applications to store and retrieve data reliably. And with consistently high perform, >>You know, it's, you know, in the media, something has to be dead. Someone's the death of the iPhone, the death of this, nothing that really dies. Mongo DB has always been kind of like talked about, well, it doesn't scale on the high end. Of course, Oracle was saying that, I mean, all the, all the big database vendors were kind of throwing darts at, at Mongo, uh, DB, uh, but it kept scaling. Atlas is a whole nother. Could you just unpack that a little bit more? Why is it so important? Because scale is just, I mean, it's, it's horizontal, but it's also performant. >>Exactly. Right. So with, uh, Mongo DB's document access model that I've described already, you break some of the limitations that exist inside traditional relational databases. So, you know, they don't scale well, if you've got high concurrent and see of data access, and they're typically difficult and expensive to scale because you need to share data. Once you grow beyond individual cluster nodes, and you'll know that all relational databases suffer from these same kinds of issues with non relational systems, no SQL systems like MongoDB, you have to think a little bit more about design at the beginning. So designing database to cater for the different access patterns that you have, but in return for that upfront preparation, that design work, you get near limitless, scalability and performance will scale nearly linearly with that scalability as well. So very much more high performance, very much more simplicity for the developer as their database gets larger and their cluster gets larger to support it. >>Yeah. You know, Amazon web service has always had an a and D jazz. We talk to us all the time, every interview I've done with Swami and Matt wood or whoever on the team and executive levels always said the same thing. There's not one database to rule the world, right? Obvious you're talking about Oracle, but even within AWS customers, they're mixing and matching databases based on use cases. So in distributed environment, they're all working together. So, um, you guys fit nicely into that. So how does that, >>I think strategy slightly counterbalances that so, you know, they would say use the specific tool for the specific task that you have in hand. Yeah. What we try to focus on is creating the simple and most effective developer experience that we can, and then supporting different facets to the product in order to allow developers to different use cases. A really good example with something like MongoDB Atlas search. So we integrated Apache Luine into MongoDB Atlas. Customers can very simply apply Apache Luine search indexes to the data that they've got in MongoDB. And then they can interact with that search data using the same drivers as an API. Yeah, yeah. That they use for regular queries. So if you want to run search on your application data, you don't need a separate open search or elastic search cluster, just turn on MongoDB Atlas search and use that, that search facet. So it's interest and we have other capabilities that it's >>Vertically integrating inside within Mongo, >>Correct? Yes. That's better. Yeah. With the guy, all of creating a really simple and effective developer experience, boosting developer productivity and helping developers get more done in less time. >>You mentioned serverless earlier, what's the serverless angle with AWS when Mongo, >>Is there one? Yeah. So we have MongoDB serverless currently in preview, uh, has the same kind of characteristics that you would, or the characteristics that you would expect from a serverless data base. So consumption based model, you provision an endpoint and that will scale elastically in accordance with your usage and you get billed by consumption units so much like the serverless paradigm that we've seen delivered by AWS, the same kind of model for Mongo, DB, Atlas serverless. >>What, what attracted you to Mongo DBS? So you knew them before, or you moved over there. Um, what's going on there? What's the culture like right now? Oh, >>The culture's great. I mean, it's a much smaller company than AWS where I was before, you know, it's a very large organization. And one of the things that I really like about MongoDB is, as I've said earlier, we can serve the different use cases that a developer might have with a single product, with different aspects, to it, different facets to it. Uh, and it's a really great conversation to have with a, with a developer, with a developer customer, to be able to offer one thing that helps them solve five or six different problems that have traditionally been quite hard for them to wrestle with quite difficult for them to, to deal with. And then we've got this focus on developer experience through these driver packages that we have as well. So it's really great to have as a developer relations pro have that kind of tooling in my kit bag that can help developers become more effective. >>Talk about tooling, cuz you know, I always have, uh, kind of moments where I waffle between more. I love platforms, tools are being over overused, too many tools tool with the tool, you know, the expressions, but we're seeing from developers, the ones that don't want to go into the hood, we serverless plays beautifully. Yep. They want tools. They do. And, and the, the new engineering developers that are coming outta college and universities, they love tools. >>Yeah. And we actually have quite a few of those built into Mongo, DB Atlas. So inside Mongo, DB Atlas, we've got things like an index optimizer, which will suggest the best way that you might index your data for better perform months inside MongoDB, running on Atlas, we've got a data Explorer, which is much like another product that we've got called MongoDB compass that allows you to see and manipulate the data that you have stored within your database natively within the Atlas interface. Uh, and then we also have, uh, whole slew of different metrics, monitoring capabilities built into the platform as well. So these are aspects of Atlas that developers can take advantage of. And then over on the client side, visual studio code plugins. Yeah. So you can manipulate and operate with data directly inside visual studio code, which is obviously the most common and popular IDE out there today, as well as integration with things like infrastructure is code tools. So we support cloud formation for provisioning. We have CDK constructs inside. Yeah. The CDK construct library. We also have a lot of customers using Terraform to provision MongoDB across both AWS and other providers. So having that developer tooling of course is super important. Yeah. Aspect of the developer experience, trying to >>Build out deploying observability is a big one. How does that fit in? Cuz you knew need to talk and not only measure everything here, but talk to other systems. >>Yeah. So we recently announced a provider for Prometheus and Grafana. So we can emit metrics into those providers. Obviously CNCF projects, very common and popular inside customers that are running on Kubernetes. We've got a Kubernetes operator for MongoDB Atlas as well. Good. So you can provision MongoDB Atlas from within Kubernetes as well as having our own native metrics directly within Atlas as well. >>Ian you're crushing it. You got all the, the data, the fingertips. Are you gonna be at Cuban this year? Uh, >>I will be, but some of our team members will definitely be there. >>Yeah, we'll be at, uh, EU. The cube will be there. Great. Thanks for coming on. Appreciate the insight final world. I'll give you the last word. Tell the audience what's going on. What's at Mongo DB. What should they pay attention to? If they've used Mongo and are aware of it? What's the update. What's >>The so you should come to MongoDB world actually in New York at the beginning of June, June 7th, the ninth in the Javit center in New York. Gonna have our own show there. And of course we'd love to see you there. >>Okay. Cube comes here day two of eight, us summit, 2020, this Cub I'm John for your host. Stay with us more. Our coverage as day two winds down. Great coverage.

(upbeat music) >> Oracle continues to pursue a multi-mode converged database strategy. The premise of this all in one approach is to make life easier for practitioners and developers. And the most recent example is the Oracle database API for MongoDB, which was announced today. Now, Oracle, they're not the first to come out with a MongoDB compatible API, but Oracle hopes to use its autonomous database as a differentiator and further build a moat around OCI, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure. And with us to talk about Oracle's MongoDB compatible API is Gerald Venzl, who's a distinguished Product Manager at Oracle. Gerald was a guest along with Maria Colgan on the CUBE a while back, and we talked about Oracle's converge database and the kind of Swiss army knife strategy, I called it, of databases. This is dramatically different. It's an approach that we see at the opposite end of the the spectrum, for instance, from AWS, who, for example, goes after the world of developers with a different database for every use case. So, kind of picking up from there, Gerald, I wonder if you could talk about how this new MongoDB API adds to your converged model and the whole strategy there. Where does it fit? >> Yeah, thank you very much, Dave and, by the way, thanks for having me on the CUBE again. A pleasure to be here. So, essentially the MongoDB API to build the compatibility that we used with this API is a continuation of the converge database story, as you said before. Which is essentially bringing the many features of the many single purpose databases that people often like and use, together into one technology so that everybody can benefit from it. So as such, this is just a continuation that we have from so many other APIs or standards that we support. Since a long time, we already, of course to SQL because we are relational database from the get go. Also other standard like GraphQL, Sparkle, et cetera that we have. And the MongoDB API, is now essentially just the next step forward to give the developers this API that they've gotten to love and use. >> I wonder if you could talk about from the developer angle, what do they get out of it? Obviously you're appealing to the Mongo developers out there, but you've got this Mongo compatible API you're pouting the autonomous database on OCI. Why aren't they just going to use MongoDB Atlas on whatever cloud, Azure or AWS or Google Cloud platform? >> That's a very good question. We believe that the majority of developers want to just worry about their application, writing the application, and not so much about the database backend that they're using. And especially in cloud with cloud services, the reason why developers choose these services is so that they don't have to manage them. Now, autonomous database brings many topnotch advanced capabilities to database cloud services. We firmly believe that autonomous database is essentially the next generation of cloud services with all the self-driving features built in, and MongoDB developers writing applications against the MongoDB API, should not have to hold out on these capabilities either. It's like no developer likes to tune the database. No developer likes to take a downtime when they have to rescale their database to accommodate a bigger workload. And this is really where we see the benefit here, so for the developer, ideally nothing will change. You have MongoDB compatible API so they can keep on using their tools. They can build the applications the way that they do, but the benefit from the best cloud database service out there not having to worry about any of these package things anymore, that even MongoDB Atlas has a lot of shortcomings still today, as we find. >> Of cos, this is always a moving target The technology business, that's why we love it. So everybody's moving fast and investing and shaking and jiving. But, I want to ask you about, well, by the way, that's so you're hiding the underlying complexity, That's really the big takeaway there. So that's you huge for developers. But take, I was talking before about, the Amazon's approach, right tool for the right job. You got document DB, you got Microsoft with Cosmos, they compete with Mongo and they've been doing so for some time. How does Oracle's API for Mongo different from those offerings and how you going to attract their users to your JSON offering. >> So, you know, for first of all we have to kind of separate slightly document DB and AWS and Cosmos DB in Azure, they have slightly different approaches there. Document DB essentially is, a document store owned by and built by AWS, nothing different to Mongo DB, it's a head to head comparison. It's like use my document store versus the other document store. So you don't get any of the benefits of a converge database. If you ever want to do a different data model, run analytics over, etc. You still have to use the many other services that AWS provides you to. You cannot all do it into one database. Now Cosmos DB it's more in interesting because they claim to be a multi-model database. And I say claim because what we understand as multi-model database is different to what they understand as multimodel database. And also one of the reasons why we start differentiating with converge database. So what we mean is you should be able to regardless what data format you want to store in the database leverage all the functionality of the database over that data format, with no trade offs. Cosmos DB when you look at it, it essentially gives you mode of operation. When you connect as the application or the user, you have to decide at connection time, how you want, how this database should be treated. Should it be a document store? Should it be a graph store? Should it be a relational store? Once you make that choice, you are locked into that. As long as you establish that connection. So it's like, if you say, I want a document store, all you get is a document store. There's no way for you to crossly analyze with the relational data sitting in the same service. There's no for you to break these boundaries. If you ever want to add some graph data and graph analytics, you essentially have to disconnect and now treat it as a graph store. So you get multiple data models in it, but really you still get, one trick pony the moment you connect to it that you have to choose to. And that is where we see a huge differentiation again with our converge database, because we essentially say, look, one database cloud service on Oracle cloud, where it allows you to do anything, if you wish to do so. You can start as a document store if you wish to do so. If you want to write some SQL queries on top, you can do so. If you want to add some graph data, you can do so. But there's no way for you to have to rewrite your application, use different libraries and frameworks now to connect et cetera, et cetera. >> Got it. Thank you for that. Do you have any data when you talk to customers? Like I'm interested in the diversity of deployments, like for instance, how many customers are using more than one data model? Do for instance, do JSON users need support for other data types or are they happy to stay kind of in their own little sandbox? Do you have any data on that? >> So what we see from the majority of our customers, there is no such thing as one data model fits everything. So, and it's like, there again we have to differentiate the developer that builds a certain microservice, that makes happy to stay in the JSON world or relational world, or the company that's trying to derive value from the data. So it's like the relational model has not gone away since 40 years of it existence. It's still kicking strong. It's still really good at what it does. The JSON data model is really good in what it does. The graph model is really good at what it does. But all these models have been built for different purposes. Try to do graph analytics on relational or JSON data. It's like, it's really tricky, but that's why you use a graph model to begin with. Try to shield yourself from the organization of the data, how it's structured, that's really easy in the relational world, not so much when you get into a document store world. And so what we see about our customers is like as they accumulate more data, is they have many different applications to run their enterprises. The question always comes back, as we have predicted since about six, seven years now, where they say, hey, we have all this different data and different data formats. We want to bring it all together, analyze it together, get value out of the data together. We have seen a whole trend of big data emerge and disappear to answer the question and didn't quite do the trick. And we are basically now back to where we were in the early 2000's when XML databases have faded away, because everybody just allowed you to store XML in the database. >> Got it. So let's make this real for people. So maybe you could give us some examples. You got this new API from Mongo, you have your multi model database. How, take a, paint a picture of how customers are going to benefit in real world use cases. How does it kind of change the customer's world before and after if you will? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know the API essentially we are going to use it to accept before, you know, make the lives of the developers easier, but also of course to assist our customers with migrations from Mongo DB over to Oracle Autonomous Database. One customer that we have, for example, that would've benefited of the API several a couple of years ago, two, three years ago, it's one of the largest logistics company on the planet. They track every package that is being sent in JSON documents. So every track package is entries resembled in a JSON document, and they very early on came in with the next question of like, hey, we track all these packages and document in JSON documents. It will be really nice to know actually which packages are stuck, or anywhere where we have to intervene. It's like, can we do this? Can we analyze just how many packages get stuck, didn't get delivered on, the end of a day or whatever. And they found this struggle with this question a lot, they found this was really tricky to do back then, in that case in MongoDB. So they actually approached Oracle, they came over, they migrated over and they rewrote their applications to accommodate that. And there are happy JSON users in Oracle database, but if we were having this API already for them then they wouldn't have had to rewrite their applications or would we often see like worry about the rewriting the application later on. Usually migration use cases, we want to get kind of the migration done, get the data over be running, and then worry about everything else. So this would be one where they would've greatly benefited to shorten this migration time window. If we had already demo the Mongo API back then or this compatibility layer. >> That's a good use case. I mean, it's, one of the most prominent and painful, so anything you could do to help that is key. I remember like the early days of big data, NoSQL, of course was the big thing. There was a lot of confusion. No, people thought was none or not only SQL, which is kind of the more widely accepted interpretation today. But really, it's talking about data that's stored in a non-relational format. So, some people, again they thought that SQL was going to fade away, some people probably still believe that. And, we saw the rise of NoSQL and document databases, but if I understand it correctly, a premise for your Mongo DB API is you really see SQL as a main contributor over Mongo DB's document collections for analytics for example. Can you make, add some color here? Are you seeing, what are you seeing in terms of resurgence of SQL or the momentum in SQL? Has it ever really waned? What's your take? >> Yeah, no, it's a very good point. So I think there as well, we see to some extent history repeating itself from, this all has been tried beforehand with object databases, XML database, et cetera. But if we stay with the NoSQL databases, I think it speaks at length that every NoSQL database that as you write for the sensor you started with NoSQL, and then while actually we always meant, not only SQL, everybody has introduced a SQL like engine or interface. The last two actually join this family is MongoDB. Now they have just recently introduced a SQL compatibility for the aggregation pipelines, something where you can put in a SQL statement and that essentially will then work with aggregation pipeline. So they all acknowledge that SQL is powerful, for us this was always clear. SQL is a declarative language. Some argue it's the only true 4GL language out there. You don't have to code how to get the data, but you just ask the question and the rest is done for you. And, we think that as we, basically, has SQL ever diminished as you said before, if you look out there? SQL has always been a demand. Look at the various developer surveys, etc. The various top skills that are asked for SQL has never gone away. Everybody loves and likes and you wants to use SQL. And so, yeah, we don't think this has ever been, going away. It has maybe just been, put in the shadow by some hypes. But again, we had the same discussion in the 2000's with XML databases, with the same discussions in the 90's with object databases. And we have just frankly, all forgotten about it. >> I love when you guys come on and and let me do my thing and I can pretty much ask any question I want, because, I got to say, when Oracle starts talking about another company I know that company's doing well. So I like, I see Mongo in the marketplace and I love that you guys are calling it out and making some moves there. So here's the thing, you guys have a large install base and that can be an advantage, but it can also be a weight in your shoulder. These specialized cloud databases they don't have that legacy. So they can just kind of move freely about, less friction. Now, all the cloud database services they're going to have more and more automation. I mean, I think that's pretty clear and inevitable. And most if not all of the database vendors they're going to provide support for these kind of converged data models. However they choose to do that. They might do it through the ecosystem, like what Snowflake's trying to do, or bring it in the house themselves, like a watch maker that brings an in-house movement, if you will. But it's like death and taxes, you can't avoid it. It's got to happen. That's what customers want. So with all that being said, how do you see the capabilities that you have today with automation and converge capabilities, How do you see that, that playing out? What's, do you think it gives you enough of an advantage? And obviously it's an advantage, but is it enough of an advantage over the specialized cloud database vendors, where there's clearly a lot of momentum today? >> I mean, honestly yes, absolutely. I mean, we are with some of these databases 20 years ahead. And I give you concrete examples. It's like Oracle had transaction support asset transactions since forever. NoSQL players all said, oh, we don't need assets transactions, base transactions is fine. Yada, yada, yada. Mongo DB started introducing some transaction support. It comes with some limits, cannot be longer than 60 seconds, cannot touch more than a thousand documents as well, et cetera. They still will have to do some catching up there. I mean, it took us a while to get there, let's be honest. Glad We have been around for a long time. Same thing, now that happened with version five, is like we started some simple version of multi version concurrency control that comes along with asset transactions. The interesting part here is like, we've introduced this also an Oracle five, which was somewhere in the 80's before I even started using Oracle Database. So there's a lot of catching up to do. And then you look at the cloud services as well, there's actually certain, a lot of things that we kind of gotten take, we've kind of, we Oracle people have taken for granted and we kind of keep forgetting. For example, our elastic scale, you want to add one CPU, you add one CPU. Should you take downtime for that? Absolutely not. It's like, this is ridiculous. Why would you, you cannot take it downtime in a 24/7 backend system that runs the world. Take any of our customers. If you look at most of these cloud services or you want to reshape, you want to scale your cloud service, that's fine. It's just the VM under the covers, we just shut everything down, give you a VM with more CPU, and you boot it up again, downtown right there. So it's like, there's a lot of these things where we go like, well, we solved this frankly decades ago, that these cloud vendors will run into. And just to add one more point here, so it's like one thing that we see with all these migrations happening is exactly in that field. It's like people essentially started building on whether it's Mongo DB or other of these NoSQL databases or cloud databases. And eventually as these systems grow, as they ask more difficult questions, their use cases expand, they find shortcomings. Whether it's the scalability, whether it's the security aspects, the functionalities that we have, and this is essentially what drives them back to Oracle. And this is why we see essentially this popularity now of pendulum swimming towards our direction again, where people actually happily come over back and they come over to us, to get their workloads enterprise grade if you like. >> Well, It's true. I mean, I just reported on this recently, the momentum that you guys have in cloud because it is, 'cause you got the best mission critical database. You're all about maps. I got to tell you a quick story. I was at a vertical conference one time, I was on stage with Kurt Monash. I don't know if you know Kurt, but he knows this space really well. He's probably forgot and more about database than I'll ever know. But, and I was kind of busting his chops. He was talking about asset transactions. I'm like, well with NoSQL, who needs asset transactions, just to poke him. And he was like, "Are you out of your mind?" And, and he said, look it's everybody is going to head in this direction. It turned out, it's true. So I got to give him props for that. And so, my last question, if you had a message for, let's say there's a skeptical developer out there that's using Mongo DB and Atlas, what would you say to them? >> I would say go try it for yourself. If you don't believe us, we have an always free cloud tier out there. You just go to oracle.com/cloud/free. You sign up for an always free tier, spin up an autonomous database, go try it for yourself. See what's actually possible today. Don't just follow your trends on Hackernews and use a set study here or there. Go try it for yourself and see what's capable of >> All right, Gerald. Hey, thanks for coming into my firing line today. I really appreciate your time. >> Thank you for having me again. >> Good luck with the announcement. You're very welcome, and thank you for watching this CUBE conversation. This is Dave Vellante, We'll see you next time. (gentle music)

>>Hey, welcome back to the cubes. Continuing coverage of AWS reinvent 2021. I'm your host, Lisa Martin. This is day two, our first full day of coverage. But day two, we have two life sets here with AWS and its ecosystem partners to remote sets over a hundred guests on the program. We're going to be talking about the next decade of cloud innovation, and I'm pleased to welcome back to cube alumni to the program. Justin Borkman is here, the co-founder and CEO of Starburst and Teresa Tung, the cloud first chief technologist at Accenture guys. Welcome back to the queue. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Good to have you back. So, so Teresa, I was doing some research on you and I see you are the most prolific prolific inventor at Accenture with over 220 patents and patent applications. That's huge. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. And I love your title. I think it's intriguing. I'd like to learn a little bit more about your role cloud-first chief technologist. Tell me about, >>Well, I get to think about the future of cloud and if you think about clouded powers, everything experiences in our everyday lives and our homes and our car in our stores. So pretty much I get to be cute, right? The rest of Accenture's James Bond >>And your queue. I like that. Wow. What a great analogy. Just to talk to me a little bit, I know service has been on the program before, but give me a little bit of an overview of the company, what you guys do. What were some of the gaps in the markets that you saw a few years ago and said, we have an idea to solve this? Sure. >>So Starburst offers a distributed query engine, which essentially means we're able to run SQL queries on data anywhere, uh, could be in traditional relational databases, data lakes in the cloud on-prem. And I think that was the gap that we saw was basically that people had data everywhere and really had a challenge with how they analyze that data. And, uh, my co-founders are the creators of an open source project originally called Presto now called Trino. And it's how Facebook and Netflix and Airbnb and, and a number of the internet companies run their analytics. And so our idea was basically to take that, commercialize that and make it enterprise grade for the thousands of other companies that are struggling with data management, data analytics problems. >>And that's one of the things we've seen explode during the last 22 months, among many other things is data, right? In every company. These days has to be a data company. If they're not, there's a competitor in the rear view rear view mirror, ready to come and take that place. We're going to talk about the data mesh Teresa, we're going to start with you. This is not a new car. This is a new concept. Talk to us about what a data mesh is and why organizations need to embrace this >>Approach. So there's a canonical definition about data mesh with four attributes and any data geek or data architect really resonates with them. So number one, it's really routed decentralized domain ownership. So data is not within a single line of business within a single entity within a single partner has to be across different domains. Second is publishing data as products. And so instead of these really, you know, technology solutions, data sets, data tables, really thinking about the product and who's going to use it. The third one is really around self-service infrastructure. So you want everybody to be able to use those products. And finally, number four, it's really about federated and global governance. So even though their products, you really need to make sure that you're doing the right things, but what's data money. >>We're not talking about a single tool here, right? This is more of a, an approach, a solution. >>It is a data strategy first and foremost, right? So companies, they are multi-cloud, they have many projects going on, they are on premise. So what do you do about it? And so that's the reality of the situation today, and it's first and foremost, a business strategy and framework to think about the data. And then there's a new architecture that underlines and supports that >>Just didn't talk to me about when you're having customer conversations. Obviously organizations need to have a core data strategy that runs the business. They need to be able to, to democratize really truly democratized data access across all business units. What are some of the, what are some of your customer conversations like are customers really embracing the data strategy, vision and approach? >>Yeah, well, I think as you alluded to, you know, every business is data-driven today and the pandemic, if anything has accelerated digital transformation in that move to become data-driven. So it's imperative that every business of every shape and size really put the power of data in the hands of everyone within their organization. And I think part of what's making data mesh resonates so well, is that decentralization concept that Teresa spoke about? Like, I think companies acknowledge that data is inherently decentralized. They have a lot of different database systems, different teams and data mesh is a framework for thinking about that. Then not only acknowledges that reality, but also braces it and basically says there's actually advantages to this decentralized approach. And so I think that's, what's driving the interest level in the data mesh, uh, paradigm. And it's been exciting to work with customers as they think about that strategy. And I think that, you know, essentially every company in the space is, is in transition, whether they're moving from on cloud to the prem, uh, to, uh, sorry, from on-prem to the cloud or from one cloud to another cloud or undergoing that digital transformation, they have left behind data everywhere. And so they're, they're trying to wrestle with how to grasp that. >>And there's, we know that there's so much value in data. The, the need is to be able to get it, to be able to analyze it quickly in real time. I think another thing we learned in the pandemic is it real-time is no longer a nice to have. It is essential for businesses in every organization. So Theresa let's talk about how Accenture and servers are working together to take the data mesh from a concept of framework and put this into production into execution. >>Yeah. I mean, many clients are already doing some aspect of the data mesh as I listed those four attributes. I'm sure everybody thought like I'm already doing some of this. And so a lot of that is reviewing your existing data projects and looking at it from a data product landscape we're at Amazon, right? Amazon famous for being customer obsessed. So in data, we're not always customer obsessed. We put up tables, we put up data sets, feature stores. Who's actually going to use this data. What's the value from it. And I think that's a big change. And so a lot of what we're doing is helping apply that product lens, a literal product lens and thinking about the customer. >>So what are some w you know, we often talk about outcomes, everything being outcomes focused and customers, vendors wanting to help customers deliver big outcomes, you know, cost reduction, et cetera, things like that. How, what are some of the key outcomes Theresa that the data mesh framework unlocks for organizations in any industry to be able to leverage? >>Yeah. I mean, it really depends on the product. Some of it is organizational efficiency and data-driven decisions. So just by the able to see the data, see what's happening now, that's great. But then you have so beyond the, now what the, so what the analytics, right. Both predictive prescriptive analytics. So what, so now I have all this data I can analyze and drive and predict. And then finally, the, what if, if I have this data and my partners have this data in this mesh, and I can use it, I can ask a lot of what if and, and kind of game out scenarios about what if I did things differently, all of this in a very virtualized data-driven fashion, >>Right? Well, we've been talking about being data-driven for years and years and years, but it's one thing to say that it's a whole other thing to actually be able to put that into practice and to use it, to develop new products and services, delight customers, right. And, and really achieve the competitive advantage that businesses want to have. Just so talk to me about how your customer conversations have changed in the last 22 months, as we've seen this massive acceleration of digital transformation companies initially, really trying to survive and figure out how to pivot, not once, but multiple times. How are those customer conversations changing now is as that data strategy becomes core to the survival of every business and its ability to thrive. >>Yeah. I mean, I think it's accelerated everything and, and that's been obviously good for companies like us and like Accenture, cause there's a lot of work to be done out there. Um, but I think it's a transition from a storage centric mindset to more of an analytics centric mindset. You know, I think traditionally data warehousing has been all about moving data into one central place. And, and once you get it there, then you can analyze it. But I think companies don't have the time to wait for that anymore. Right there, there's no time to build all the ETL pipelines and maintain them and get all of that data together. We need to shorten that time to insight. And that's really what we, what we've been focusing on with our, with our customers, >>Shorten that time to insight to get that value out of the data faster. Exactly. Like I said, you know, the time is no longer a nice to have. It's an absolute differentiator for folks in every business. And as, as in our consumer lives, we have this expectation that we can get whatever we want on our phone, on any device, 24 by seven. And of course now in our business lives, we're having the same expectation, but you have to be able to unlock that access to that data, to be able to do the analytics, to make the decisions based on what the data say. Are you, are you finding our total? Let's talk about a little bit about the go to market strategy. You guys go in together. Talk to me about how you're working with AWS, Theresa, we'll start with you. And then Justin we'll head over to you. Okay. >>Well, a lot of this is powered by the cloud, right? So being able to imagine a new data business to run the analytics on it and then push it out, all of that is often cloud-based. But then the great thing about data mesh it's it gives you a framework to look at and tap into multi-cloud on-prem edge data, right? Data that can't be moved because it is a private and secure has to be at the edge and on-prem so you need to have that's their data reality. And the cloud really makes this easier to do. And then with data virtualization, especially coming from the digital natives, we know it scales >>Just to talk to me about it from your perspective that the GTL. >>Yeah. So, I mean, I think, uh, data mesh is really about people process and technology. I think Theresa alluded to it as a strategy. It's, it's more than just technology. Obviously we bring some of that technology to bear by allowing customers to query the data where it lives. But the people in process side is just as important training people to kind of think about how they do data management, data analytics differently is essential thinking about how to create data as a product. That's one of the core principles that Theresa mentioned, you know, that's where I think, um, you know, folks like Accenture can be really instrumental in helping people drive that transformational change within their organization. And that's >>Hard. Transformational change is hard with, you know, the last 22 months. I've been hard on everyone for every reason. How are you facilitating? I'm curious, like to get Theresa, we'll start with you, your perspectives on how our together as servers and Accenture, with the power of AWS, helping to drive that cultural change within organizations. Because like we talked about Justin there, nobody has extra time to waste on anything these days. >>The good news is there's that imperative, right? Every business is a digital business. We found that our technology leaders, right, the top 10% investors in digital, they are outperforming are the laggards. So before pandemic, it's times to post pep devek times five, so there's a need to change. And so data is really the heart of the company. That's how you unlock your technical debt into technical wealth. And so really using cloud and technologies like Starburst and data virtualization is how we can actually do that. >>And so how do you, Justin, how does Starburst help organizations transfer that technical debt or reduce it? How does the D how does the data much help facilitate that? Because we talk about technical debt and it can, it can really add up. >>Yeah, well, a lot of people use us, uh, or think about us as an abstraction layer above the different data sources that they have. So they may have legacy data sources today. Um, then maybe they want to move off of over time, um, could be classical data, warehouses, other classical, uh, relational databases, perhaps they're moving to the cloud. And by leveraging Starburst as this abstraction, they can query the data that they have today, while in the background, moving data into the cloud or moving it into the new data stores that they want to utilize. And it sort of hides that complexity. It decouples the end user experience, the business analyst, the data scientists from where the data lives. And I think that gives people a lot of freedom and a lot of optionality. And I think, you know, the only constant is change. Um, and so creating an architecture that can stand the test of time, I think is really, really important. >>Absolutely. Speaking of change, I just saw the announcement about Starburst galaxy fully managed SAS platform now available in all three major clouds. Of course, here we are at AWS. This is a, is this a big directional shift for servers? >>It is, you know, uh, I think there's great precedent within open source enterprise software companies like Mongo DB or confluent who started with a self managed product, much the way that we did, and then moved in the direction of creating a SAS product, a cloud hosted, fully managed product that really I think, expands the market. And that's really essentially what we're doing with galaxy galaxy is designed to be as easy as possible. Um, you know, Starburst was already powerful. This makes it powerful and easy. And, uh, and, and in our view, can, can hopefully expand the market to thousands of potential customers that can now leverage this technology in a, in a faster, easier way, >>Just in sticking with you for a minute. Talk to me about kind of where you're going in, where services heading in terms of support for the data mesh architecture across industries. >>Yeah. So a couple of things that we've, we've done recently, and whether we're doing, uh, as we speak, one is, uh, we introduced a new capability. We call star gate. Now star gate is a connector between Starburst clusters. So you're going to have a Starbucks cluster, and let's say Azure service cluster in AWS, a Starbucks cluster, maybe an AWS west and AWS east. And this basically pushes the processing to where the data lives. So again, living within this construct of, uh, of decentralized data that a data mesh is all about, this allows you to do that at an even greater level of abstraction. So it doesn't even matter what cloud region the data lives in or what cloud entirely it lives in. And there are a lot of important applications for this, not only latency in terms of giving you fast, uh, ability to join across those different clouds, but also, uh, data sovereignty constraints, right? >>Um, increasingly important, especially in Europe, but increasingly everywhere. And, you know, if your data isn't Switzerland, it needs to stay in Switzerland. So starting date as a way of pushing the processing to Switzerland. So you're minimizing the data that you need to pull back to complete your analysis. And, uh, and so we think that's a big deal about, you know, kind of enabling a data mash on a, on a global scale. Um, another thing we're working on back to the point of data products is how do customers curate and create these data products and share them within their organization. And so we're investing heavily in our product to make that easier as well, because I think back to one of the things, uh, Theresa said, it's, it's really all about, uh, making this practical and finding quick wins that customers can deploy, deploy in their data mess journey, right? >>This quick wins are key. So Theresa, last question to you, where should companies go to get started today? Obviously everybody has gotten, we're still in this work from anywhere environment. Companies have tons of data, tons of sources of data, did it, infrastructure's already in place. How did they go and get started with data? >>I think they should start looking at their data projects and thinking about the best data products. I think just that mindset shift about thinking about who's this for what's the business value. And then underneath that architecture and support comes to bear. And then thinking about who are the products that your product could work better with just like any other practice partnerships, like what we have with AWS, right? Like that's a stronger together sort of thing, >>Right? So there's that kind of that cultural component that really strategic shift in thinking and on the architecture. Awesome guys, thank you so much for joining me on the program, coming back on the cube at re-invent talking about data mesh really help. You can help organizations and industry put that together and what's going on at service. We appreciate your time. Thanks again. All right. For my guests, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching the cubes coverage of AWS reinvent 2021. The cube is the leader in global live tech coverage. We'll be right back.

>> Okay. We're here with Vasanth Kumar who's the Principal Solutions Architect for MongoDB. Vasanth, welcome to "theCube." >> Thanks Dave. >> Hey, listen, I feel like you were born to be an architect in technology. I mean, you've worked for big SIs, you've worked with many customers, you have experience in financial services and banking. Tell us, the audience, a little bit more about yourself, and what you're up to these days. >> Yeah. Hi, thanks for the for inviting me for this discussion. I'm based out of Bangalore, India, having around 18 years experience in IT industry, building enterprise products for different domains, verticals, finance built and enterprise banking applications, IOT platforms, digital experience solutions. Now being with MongoDB nearly two years, been working in a partner team as a principal solutions architect, especially working with ISBs to build the best practices of handling the data and embed the right database as part of their product. I also worked with technology partners to integrate the compatible technology compliance with MongoDB. And also worked with the private cloud providers to provide a database as a service. >> Got it. So, you know, I have to Vasanth, I think Mongo, you kind of nailed it. They were early on with the trends of managing unstructured data, making it really simple. There was always a developer appeal, which has lasted and then doing so with an architecture that scales out, and back in the early days when Mongo was founded, I remember those days, I mean, digital transformation, wasn't a thing, it wasn't a buzz word, but it just so happens that Mongo's approach, it dovetails very nicely with a digital business. So I wonder if you could talk about that, talk about the fit and how MongoDB thinks about accelerating digital transformation and why you're different from like a traditional RDBMS. >> Sure, exactly, yeah. You had a right understanding, let me elaborate it. So we all know that the customer expectation changes day by day, because of the business agility functionality changes, how they want to experience the applications, or in apps that changes okay. And obviously this yields to the agility of the information which transforms between the multiple systems or layers. And to achieve this, obviously the way of architecting or developing the product as completely a different shift, might be moving from the monolith to microservices or event-based architecture and so on. And obviously the database has to be opt for these environment to adopt these changes, to adopt the scale of load and the other thing. Okay. And also like we see that the common, the protocol for the information exchange is JSON, and something like you, you adopt it. The database adopts it natively to that is a perfect fit. Okay. So that's where the MongoDB fits perfectly for billing or transforming the modern applications, because it's a general purpose database which accepts the JSON as a payload and stores it in a BSON format. You don't need to be, suppose like to develop any particular application or to transfer an existing application, typically they see the what is the effort required and how much, what is the cost involved in it, and how quickly I can do that. That's main important thing without disturbing the functionality here where, since it is a multimodal database in a JSON format, you don't easily build an application. Okay? Don't need a lot of transformation in case of an RDBMS, you get the JSON payload, you transform into a tabular structure or a different format, and then probably you build an ORM layer and then map it and save it. There are lot of work involved in it. There are a lot of components need to be written in between. But in case of MongoDB, what they can do is you get the information from the multiple sources. And as is, you can put it in a DB based on where, or you can transform it based on the access patterns. And then you can store it quickly. >> Dave: Got it. And I tell Dave, because today you haven't context data, which has a selected set of information. Probably tomorrow the particular customer has more information to put it. So how do you capture that? In case of an RDBMS, you need to change the schema. Once you scheme change the schema, your application breaks down. But here it magically adopts it. Like you pass the extra information, it's open for extension. It adopts it easily. You don't need to redeploy or change the schema or do something like that. >> Right. That's the genius of Mongo. And then of course, you know, in the early days people say, oh, you know, Mongo, it won't scale. And then of course we, through the cloud. And I follow very closely Atlas. I look at the numbers every quarter. I mean, overall cloud adoption is increasing like crazy, you know, our Wiki Bon analyst team. We got the big four cloud vendors just in IAS growing beyond a 115 billion this year. That's 35% on top of, you know, 80-90 billion last year. So talk more about how MongoDB fits with the cloud and how it helps with the whole migration story. 'Cause you're killing it in that space. >> Yeah. Sure. Just to add one more point on the previous question. So for continuously, for past four to five years, we have been the number one in the wanted database. >> Dave: Right Okay. That that's how like the popularity is getting done. That's how the adoption has happened. >> Dave: Right. >> I'm coming back to your question- >> Yeah let's talk about the cloud and database as a service, you guys actually have packaged that very nicely I have to say. >> Yeah. So we have spent lot of effort and time in developing Atlas, our managed database as a service, which typically gives the customer the way of just concentrating on their application rather than maintaining and managing the whole set of database or how to scale infrastructure. All those things on work is taken care. You don't need to be an expert of DB, like when you are using an Atlas. So we provide the managed database in three major cloud providers, AWS, GCP, and Azure, and also it's a purely a multicloud, you know, like you can have a primary in AWS and you have the replicated nodes in GCP or Azure. It's a purely multicloud. So that like, you don't have a cloud blocking. You feel that, okay, your business is, I mean, if this is the right for your business you are choosing the model, you think that I need to move to GCP. You don't need to bother, you easily migrate this to GCP. Okay. No vendor lock in, no cloud lock in this particular- >> So Vasanth, maybe you could talk a little bit more about Atlas and some of the differentiable features and things that you can do with Atlas that maybe people don't know about. >> Yeah, sure Dave like, Atlas is not just a manage database as a service, you know, like it's a complete data platform and it provides many features. Like for example, you build an application and probably down the line of three years, the data which you captured three years back might be an old data. Like how do you do it? Like there's no need for you to manually purge or do thing. Like we do have an online archival where you configure the data. So that like the data, which is older than two years, just purge it. So automatically this is taken care. So that like you have hot data kept in Atlas cluster and the cold data moved up to an ARKit. And also like we have a data lake where you can run a federated queries . For example, you've done an archival, but what if people want to access the data? So with data lake, what it can do is, on a single connection, you can fire a- you can run a federated queries both on the active and the archival data. That's the beauty, like you archive the data, but still you can able to query it. And we do also have a charts where like, you can build in visualization on top of the data, what you have captured. You can build in graphs or you can build in graphs and also embed these graphs as part of your application, or you can collaborate to the customers, to the CXOs and other theme. >> Dave: Got it. >> It's a complete data platform. >> Okay. Well, speaking of data platform, let's talk about Io-Tahoe's data RPA platform, and coupling that with Mongo DB. So maybe you could help us understand how you're helping with process automation, which is a very hot topic and just this whole notion of a modern application development. >> Sure. See, the process automation is more with respect to the data and how you manage this data and what to derive and build a business process on top of it. I see there are two parts into it. Like one is the source of data. How do you identify, how do you discover the data? How do you enrich the context or transform it, give a business context to it. And then you build a business rules or act on it, and then you store the data or you derive the insights or enrich it and store it into DB. The first part is completely taken by Io-Tahoe, where you can tag the data for the multiple data sources. For example, if we take an customer 360 view, you can grab the data from multiple data sources using Io-Tahoe and you discover this data, you can tag it, you can label it and you build a view of the complete customer context, and use a realm web book and then the data is ingested back to Mongo. So that's all like more sort of like server-less fashion. You can build this particular customer 360 view for example. And just to talk about the realm I spoke, right? The realm web book, realm is a backend APA that you can create on top of the data on Mongo cluster, which is available in addclass. Okay. Then once you run, the APS are ready. Data as a service, you build it as a data as a service, and you fully secure APIs, which are available. These APS can be integrated within a mobile app or an web application to build in a built in modern application. But what left out is like, just build a UI artifacts and integrate these APIs. >> Yeah, I mean we live in this API economy companies. People throw that out as sort of a buzz phrase, but Mongo lives that. I mean, that's why developers really like the Mongo. So what's your take on DevOps? Maybe you could talk a little bit about, you know, your perspective there, how you help Devs and data engineers build faster pipelines. >> Yeah, sure. Like, okay, this is the most favorite topic. Like, no, and it's a buzzword along, like all the DevOps moving out from the traditional deployment, what I learned online. So like we do support like the deployment automation in multiple ways okay, and also provide the diagnostic under the hood. We have two options in Mongo DB. One is an enterprise option, which is more on the on-prem's version. And Atlas is more with respect to the cloud one manage database service. Okay. In case of an enterprise advanced, like we do have an Ops manager and the Kubernetes operator, like a Ops manager will manage all sort of deployment automation. Upgrades, provides your diagnostics, both with respect to the hardwares, and also with respect to the MongoDB gives you a profiling, slow running queries and what you can get a context of what's working on the data using that. I'm using an enterprise operator. You can integrate with existing Kubernetes cluster, either in a different namespace on an existing namespace. And orchestrate the deployment. And in case of Atlas, we do have an Atlas-Kubernetes operator, which helps you to integrate your Kubernetes operator. And you don't need to leave your Kubernetes. And also we have worked with the cloud providers. For example, we have we haven't cloud formation templates where you can just in one click, you can just roll out an Atlas cluster with a complete platform. So that's one, like we are continuously working, evolving on the DevOps site to roll out the might be a helm chart, or we do have an operator, which has a standard (indistinct) for different types of deployments. >> You know, some really important themes here. Obviously, anytime you talk about Mongo, simplicity comes in, automation, you know, that big, big push that Io-Tahoe was making. What you said about data context was interesting because a lot of data systems, organizations, they lack context and context is very important. So auto classification and things like that. And the other thing you said about federated queries I think fits very well into the trend toward decentralized data architecture. So very important there. And of course, hybridisity. I call it hybridisity. On-prem, cloud, abstracting that complexity away and allowing people to really focus on their digital transformations. I tell ya, Vasanth, it's great stuff. It's always a pleasure chatting with Io-Tahoe partners, and really getting into the tech with folks like yourself. So thanks so much for coming on theCube. >> Thanks. Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having a nice discussion with you. >> Okay. Stay right there. We've got one more quick session that you don't want to miss.

>> Narrator: From around the globe. It's theCUBE with digital coverage of Postgres vision 2021 brought to you by EDB. >> Welcome back to Postgres Vision 21. My name is Dave Vellante. We're thrilled to welcome Carl Olofsen to theCUBE. Carl is a research vice president at IDC focused on data management. The long-time database analyst is the technologist and market observer. Carl, good to see you again. >> Thanks Dave. Glad to be here. >> All right. Let's let's get into it. Let's talk about, let's go right to the, to the source the open source database space. You know, how, what changes have you seen over the last couple of years in that marketplace? >> Well, this is a dynamic area and it's continuing to evolve. When we first saw the initial open source products like mysQl and PostgreSQL on the early days they were very limited in terms of functionality. They were espoused largely by sort of true believers. You know, people who said everything should be open source. And we saw that mainly they were being used for what I would call rather prosaic database applications. But as time has gone by they both of these products improve. Now there's one key difference, of course, which is a mySQL is company owned open source. So the IP belongs to Oracle corporation. Whereas PostgreSQL is community open source, which means that the IP belongs to the PostgreSQL community. And that can have a big difference in terms of things like licensing and so forth, which really matters now that we're coming into the cloud space because as open-source products moving into the cloud space the revenue model is based on subscriptions. And of course they are always based on subscription to open source cause you don't charge for the license. So what you charge for its support, but in the cloud what you can do is you can set up a database service, excuse me, a database service and then you charge for that service. And if it's open source or it's not open source that actually doesn't matter to the user. If you see what that I mean because they still are paying a subscription fee for a service and they get the service. The main difference between the two types is that if you're a commercial provider of PostgreSQL like enterprise DB, you don't have control over where it goes and you don't have control over the IP and how people use it in different ways. Whereas Oracle owns mySQL so they have a lot more control and they can do things to it on their own. They don't have to consult the community. Now there's also, non-relational open source including MongoDB. And as you may be aware, MongoDB has changed their license. So that it's not possible for third party to offer Mongo DB as a complete managed database service without paying a license fee to MongoDB for that. And that's because they own the IP too. And we're going to see a lot more of this sort of thing. I have conversations with open source all the time and they are getting a little concerned that it has become possible for somebody to simply take their technology, make a lot of money off that. And no money goes back to the community. No money goes back to the IRS. It's a company it's just stays with the supplier. So I think, you know it'll be interesting to see how all this is over time. >> So you're suggesting that the Postgres model then is, is I guess I'll use the word cleaner. And so that feels like it's a it's a benefit or is it a two-edged sword kind of thing? I mean, you were saying before, you know a company controls the IP so they could do things without having to go to the community. So maybe they can do things faster. But at the other hand like you said, you get handcuffed. You think you're going to be able to get a, you know a managed service, but then all of a sudden you're not and the rules change midstream saying it, am I correct? That Postgres, the model is cleaner for the customer? >> Well, you know, I mean, a lot of my friends who are in the open source community don't even consider company owned open source to be true open source because the IP is controlled by a company, not by a community. >> Dave: Right >> So from that perspective certainly Postgres SQL is considered, I don't know if you want to use the word cleaner or more pure or something along those lines, but also because of that the nature of community open source it can be used in many different ways. And so we see Postgres popping up all over the place sometimes partially and sometimes altogether, in other words, a service, a cloud service, we'll take a piece of Postgres and stick it on top of their own technology and offer it. And the reason they do that is they know there are a lot of developers out there who already know how to code for Postgres. So they are immediately first-class users of the service that they're offering. >> So, talk a little bit more about what you're seeing. You just mentioned a lot of different use cases. That's interesting. I didn't realize that was, that was happening. The, what are you seeing in terms of adoption in let's say the last 18, 24 months specific to Postgres? >> Yeah, we're seeing a fair amount of adoption in especially in the middle market. And of course there is rapid adoption in the tech sector. Now, why would that be? Well it's because they have armies of technologists. Who know how to program this stuff. You know, when you, you know, a lot of them will use PostgreSQL without a contract without a support contract, they'll just support themselves. And they can do that because they have the technicians who are capable of doing it. Most regular businesses can't do that. They don't have the staff so they need that support contract. And so that's where a company like enterpriseDB comes. I mentioned them only because they're the leading supplier Postgres to all their other suppliers. >> I was talking to Josh Burgers, red hat and he was, you know, he had just come off a Cubacon and he was explaining kind of what's happening in that community. Big focus of course on security and the whole, you know, so-called shift left. We were having a good discussion about, you know when does it make sense to use, you know Postgres in a container environment should you use Postgres and Kubernetes and he sort of suggested that things have rapidly evolved. There's still, you know, considerations but what are you seeing in terms of the adoption of microservices architectures containers, generally Kubernetes how has that affected the use of things like postsgres? >> So those are all different things or need to be kind of custody. >> Pick your favorite. >> They're related then. So microservices, the microservice concept is that you take an application break it up into little pieces and each one becomes a microservice that's invoked through an API. And then you have this whole structure API system that you use to drive the application and they run. They typically, they run in containers usually Kubernetes govern containers but the reason you do this and this is basically a efficiency because especially in the cloud, you want only to pay for what you use. So when you're running a microservice based application. Applications have lots of little pieces when something needs to be done, microservice fires up it does the thing that needs to be done. It goes away. You only pay for that fraction of a second that the microservice is running. Whereas in a conventional application you load this big heavyweight application. It does stop. It sets some weights with things and does more stuff and sits and waits for things. And you pay for compute for that entire period. So it's much more cost effective to use a microservices application. The thing is that microservice, the concept of microservices is based on the idea that the code is stateless but database code isn't stateless cause it has its attraction to the database which is the ultimate kind of like stateful environment right? So it's a tricky business. Most database technologies that are claimed to be container-based actually run in containers the way they run in servers. In other words, they're not microservice-based they do run in containers. And the reason they're doing that is for portability so that you can deploy them anywhere and you can move them around. But you know deploying a microservice based database is, well, it's it's a big technical project. I mean, that is hard to do. >> Right and so talk about, I mean again we're talking to Josh it was clear that that Kubernetes has evolved, you know quite rapidly at the same time there were cautions. In other words, he would say I think suggested things like, you know, there were known at one point, there were known, you know flaws and known bugs that ship the code that's been been remediated or moderated in terms of that practice but still there's there's considerations just in terms of the frequency of updates. I think he gave the example of when was the last time you know, JVM got, you know, overhauled. And so what kind of considerations should customers think about when considering them, they want the Kubernetes they want the flexibility and the agility but at the same time, if they're going to put it production, they've got to be careful, right? >> Yeah, I think you need to make sure you're using you're using functions that are well-established, you know you wouldn't want to put something into production that's new. They say, oh, here's a new, here's a new operation. Let's try that. And then, you know, you get in trouble. So you want to deal conservative that way you know, Kubernetes is open-source so and the updates and the testing and all that follows a rather slow formal process, you know from the time that the submission comes in to the time that it goes out, whereas you mentioned JVMs JV, but it was owned by Oracle. And so JVMs are managed like products. Now there's a whole sort of legal thing I don't want to get into it as to whether it's legal. They claim it's not libero third parties to build JVMs without paying a licensing. I don't want to talk about that, but it's based on a very state that has a very stable base, you know whereas this area of Kubernetes and govern containers is still rapidly evolving but this is like any technology, right? I mean, when you, if you're going to commit your enterprise to functions that run on an emerging technology then you are accepting some risk. You know, that there's no question about it. >> So we talked about the cloud earlier and the whole trend toward managed services. I mean, how does that specifically apply to Postgres? You can kind of imagine like a sidecar, a little bit of Postgres mixed in with, you know, other services. So what do you see and what do you, what's your telescope say in terms of the the Postgres adoption cloud? How do you see that progressing? >> I think there's a lot of potential. There's a lot of potential there. I think we are nowhere near the option that it should be able to achieve. I say that because for one thing, even though we analyze the future at IDC, that doesn't mean we actually know the future. So I can't say what its adoption will be but I can say that there's a lot of potential there. There's a tremendous number of Postgres developers out there. So there's a huge potential for adoption. And especially in cloud adoption, the main thing that would help that is independent. And I know that enterpriseDB has one independent a managed cloud service. So I think they do. >> Yeah I think so. >> But you know, why do I say that? I say that because alternatives these days there are some small companies that maybe they'll survive and maybe they won't, but that, you know, do you want to get involved with them or the cloud platform providers, but if you use their Postgres you're locked into that cloud platform. You know, if you use Amazon, go press on RDS, right? You're not, you become quickly locked in because you're starting using all the AWS tools that surround it to build and manage your application. And then you can't move. If you see what I mean. >> Dave: Yeah . >> They have have an RDS labor Aurora, and this is actually one of the things that it's really just a thin layer of Postgres interaction code underneath Aurora is their own product. so that's an even deeper level of commitment. >> So what has to happen for, so obviously cloud, you know, big trend. So the Postgres community then adopts the code base for the cloud. Obviously EDB has, you know hundreds of developers contributing to that, but so what does that mean to be able to run in the cloud? Is that making it cloud native? Is that extensions? Is it, you know, what technically has to occur and what has occurred and how mature is it? >> Well, so smaller user organizations are able to migrate fairly quickly cloud because most of their applications are you know, commercially purchased. They're like factories applications. When they move to the cloud, they get the SAS one and often the SAS equivalent runs on Postgres. So that's just fine. Larger enterprises are a real mess. If you've ever been in a large enterprise data center you know what I'm talking about? It's just, there's just servers and storage everywhere. There's, all these applications, databases connections. They are not moving to the cloud anytime soon. But what they are doing is setting up things like private cloud environments and applying in there. And this is a place where if you're thinking about moving to something like a Postgres you know most of these enterprises use the big commercial databases. Oracle SQLserver DB two and so forth. If you're thinking of moving from that to a a PostgreSQL development say, then the smart thing to do would be first to do all your work in the private cloud where you'd have complete control over the environment. It also makes sense still to have a commercial support contract from a vendor that you trust, because I've said this again, unless you are, you know, Cisco or somebody, you know, some super tech company that's got all the technicians you need to do the work. You really don't want to take on that level of risk. If you see that, I mean. Another advantage to working with a supplier, a support supplier, especially if you have a close, intimate relationship is they will speed your security patches on a regular basis which is really important these days, because data security is as you know, a growing concern all over the place. >> So let's stay on the skillsets for a minute. Where do you see the gaps within enterprises? What kind of expertise you mentioned, you know support contracts, what are the types of things that a customer should look for in terms of the the expertise to apply to supporting Postgres databases? >> Well, obviously you want them to do the basics that any software company does, right? You want them to provide you with regular updates and binary form that you can load and, you know test and run. You want to have the you know, 24 hour hotline you know, telephone support, all that kind of thing. I think it's also important to have a solid ability on the part of the vendor that you're working with to provide you with advice and counseling as you, especially, if you're migrating from another technology, help your people convert from what they were using to what they're going to be using. So those are all aspects that I would look for in a vendor for supporting a product like PostgreSQL. >> When you think about the migration to the cloud, you know of course Amazon talks a lot about cloud migration. They have a lot of tooling associated with that. >> Carl: Right. >> But when you step back and look at it it did to a point earlier, I mean a lot of the hardcore mission, critical stuff isn't going to move it, hasn't moved, but a lot of the fat middle, you know, is, are good candidates for it. >> Carl: Right. >> How do you think about that? And how do you look at that? I mean, obviously Oracle is trying to shove everything into OCI and they're, you know, they're all in because they realized that could make a lot of money doing that. But what do you, what are the sort of parameters that we should think about when considering that kind of migration, moving a legacy database into the cloud? >> Well, it has to be done piecemeal. You're not going to be able to do it all at once. You know, if you have hundreds of applications, you're not just you don't even want to, you know, it's a good time to take you into it. And what you've got running, ask yourself are these applications really serving the business interests today and will they in the future or is this a good time to maybe consider something else? Even if you have a packaged application, there might be one that is more aligned with your future goals. So it's important to do that. Look at your data integration, try to simplify it. You know, most data integration that most companies has done piecemeal project by project. They don't reference each other. So you have this chaos of ETL jobs and transformation rules and things like that that are just, you know, even difficult to manage. Now, just forget about any kind of migration or transformation considerations, just trying to run it now is becoming increasingly difficult. You know, maybe you want to change your strategy for doing data integration. Maybe you want to consolidate you want to put more data in one database. I'm not an advocate of the idea that you can put all application data in one database by the way, we know from bitter experience that doesn't work, but we can be rational about the kinds of databases that we use and how they sit together. >> Well, I mean, you've been following this for a long time and you saw the sort of rise and fall of the big data meme. And you know, this idea that you can shove everything into a single place, have a single version of the truth. It's like, it's just never seemed to happen. >> Carl: Right. >> So, you know, Postgres has been around a long time. It's evolved. I mean, I remember when, you know, VMware's ascendancy and people are like, okay, should I, you know should I virtualize my Postgres database is your, you know similar conversations that we were having earlier about Kubernetes. You've seen the move to the cloud. We're going to have this conversation about the edge at some point in time. So what's your outlook for Postgres, the Postgres community and, you know database market overall? >> Well, I really think the future for database growth is in the cloud. That's what all the data we're looking at and the case that's what our recent surveys indicate. As I said before, the rate of change depends on the size of the enterprise. Smaller advices are moving rapidly, large enterprises much more slowly and cautiously for the very simple reason that it's a very complex proposition. And also in some cases, they're wondering if they can move certain data or will they be violating your some sort of regulatory constraint or contractual issue. So they need to deal with those things too. That's why the private cloud is the perfect place to get started and get technology all lined up storing your data center is still under your control no legal issues there, but you can start, you know converting your applications to micro-service architected applications running in containers. You can start replacing your database servers with ones that can run in a container environment and maybe in the future, maybe hope that in the future, some of those will actually also be able to run as microservices. I don't think it's impossible but it just involves programming the database server in a very different way than we've done in the past. But you do those things. You can do those things under your own control over time in your own dataset. And then you reach a point where you want to take the elements of your application environment and say, what pieces of this, can I move to the cloud without creating disruption and issues regarding things like data egress and latency from cloud to data center and that kind of thing. And prepare for that. And then you're doing the step wise and then you start converting in a stepwise manner. I think ultimately it just makes so much sense to be in the cloud that the cloud vendors have economies of scale. They can deploy large numbers of servers and storage systems to satisfy the needs of large numbers of customers and create, you know great considerable savings. Some of which of course becomes their profit which is what's due to them. And some of that comes back to the users. So that's what I expect. We're going to see. And oh gosh, I would say that starting from about three years from now the larger enterprises start making their move and then you'll really start to see changes in the numbers in terms of cloud and cloud revenue. >> Great stuff, Carl, thank you for that. So any cool research you're working on lately, how you're spending your your work time, anything you want to plug? >> Well, working a lot on just as these questions, you know cloud migration is a hot topic, another which is really sort of off the subject. And what we've been talking about is graph database which I've been doing a fair amount of research into. I think that's going to be really important in the coming years and really, you know working with my colleagues in a project called the future of intelligence which looks at all the different related elements not just database, data integration but artificial intelligence, data communications and so on and so forth and how they come together to create a more intelligent enterprise. And that's a major initiative that I see. It's one of the, we call the future of initiatives. >> Great, Carls, thanks so much for coming back to theCUBE. It's great to have you, man. I appreciate it. >> Well, I enjoyed it. Now I have to do it again sometime. >> All right you got it. All right thank you everybody for watching theCUBEs. Continuous coverage of Postgres vision 21. This is Dave Vellante keep it right there. (upbeat music)

>>from around the globe. It's the Cube presenting Cuban cloud brought to you by silicon angle. Okay, >>we're now going to explore the vision of the future of cloud computing From the perspective of one of the leaders in the field, J G >>Share >>a pure off is the vice president of As Your Data ai and Edge at Microsoft G. Welcome to the Cuban cloud. Thanks so much for participating. >>Well, thank you, Dave, and it's a real pleasure to be here with you. And I just wanna welcome the audience as well. >>Well, jg judging from your title, we have a lot of ground to cover, and our audience is definitely interested in all the topics that are implied there. So let's get right into it. You know, we've said many times in the Cube that the new innovation cocktail comprises machine intelligence or a I applied to troves of data. With the scale of the cloud. It's it's no longer, you know, we're driven by Moore's law. It's really those three factors, and those ingredients are gonna power the next wave of value creation and the economy. So, first, do you buy into that premise? >>Yes, absolutely. we do buy into it. And I think, you know, one of the reasons why we put Data Analytics and Ai together is because all of that really begins with the collection of data and managing it and governing it, unlocking analytics in it. And we tend to see things like AI, the value creation that comes from a I as being on that continues off, having started off with really things like analytics and proceeding toe. You know, machine learning and the use of data. Interesting breaks. Yes. >>I'd like to get some more thoughts around a data and how you see the future data and the role of cloud and maybe how >>Microsoft, you >>know, strategy fits in there. I mean, you, your portfolio, you got you got sequel server, Azure, Azure sequel. You got arc, which is kinda azure everywhere for people that aren't familiar with that. You've got synapse. Which course that's all the integration a data warehouse, and get things ready for B I and consumption by the business and and the whole data pipeline and a lot of other services as your data bricks you got You got cosmos in their, uh, Blockchain. You've got open source services like Post Dress and my sequel. So lots of choices there. And I'm wondering, you know, how do you think about the future of Of of Cloud data platforms? It looks like your strategies, right tool for the right job? Is that fair? >>It is fair, but it's also just to step back and look at it. It's fundamentally what we see in this market today is that customer was the Sikh really a comprehensive proposition? And when I say a comprehensive proposition, it is sometimes not just about saying that. Hey, listen way No, you're a sequel server company. We absolutely trust that you have the best Azure sequel database in the cloud, but tell us more. We've got data that's sitting in her group systems. We've got data that's sitting in Post Press in things like mongo DB, right? So that open source proposition today and data and data management and database management has become front and center, so are really sort of push. There is when it comes to migration management, modernization of data to present the broadest possible choice to our customers so we can meet them where they are. However, when it comes to analytics. One of the things they asked for is give us a lot more convergence use. You know it, really, it isn't about having 50 different services. It's really about having that one comprehensive service that is converged. That's where things like synapse Fitzer, where in just land any kind of data in the leg and then use any compute engine on top of it to drive insights from it. So, fundamentally, you know, it is that flexibility that we really sort of focus on to meet our customers where they are and really not pushing our dogma and our beliefs on it. But to meet our customers according to the way they have deployed stuff like this. >>So that's great. I want to stick on this for a minute because, you know, I know when when I have guests on like yourself, do you never want to talk about you know, the competition? But that's all we ever talk about. That's all your customers ever talk about, because because the counter to that right tool for the right job and that I would say, is really kind of Amazon's approach is is that you got the single unified data platform, the mega database that does it all. And that's kind of Oracle's approach. It sounds like you wanna have your cake and eat it, too, so you you got the right tool for the right job approach. But you've got an integration layer that allows you to have that converge database. I wonder if you could add color to that and you confirm or deny what I just said. >>No, that's a That's a very fair observation, but I I say there's a nuance in what I sort of describe when it comes to data management. When it comes to APS, we have them customers with the broadest choice. Even in that, even in that perspective, we also offer convergence. So, case in point, when you think about Cosmos TV under that one sort of service, you get multiple engines, but with the same properties, right global distribution, the five nines availability. It gives customers the ability to basically choose when they have to build that new cloud native AB toe, adopt cosmos Davey and adopted in a way that it's and choose an engine that is most flexible. Tow them, however you know when it comes to say, you know, writing a sequel server, for example from organizing it you know you want. Sometimes you just want to lift and shift it into things. Like I asked In other cases, you want to completely rewrite it, so you need to have the flexibility of choice there that is presented by a legacy off What's its on premises? When it moved into things like analytics, we absolutely believe in convergence, right? So we don't believe that look, you need to have a relation of data warehouse that is separate from a loop system that is separate from, say, a B I system. That is just, you know, it's a bolt on for us. We love the proposition off, really building things that are so integrated that once you land data, once you prep it inside the lake, you can use it for analytics. You can use it for being. You can use it for machine learning. So I think you know, are sort of differentiated. Approach speaks for itself there. Well, >>that's that's interesting, because essentially, again, you're not saying it's an either or, and you're seeing a lot of that in the marketplace. You got some companies say no, it's the Data Lake and others saying No, no put in the data warehouse and that causes confusion and complexity around the data pipeline and a lot of calls. And I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Ah, lot of customers struggled to get value out of data and and specifically data product builders of frustrated that it takes too long to go from. You know, this idea of Hey, I have an idea for a data service and it could drive monetization, but to get there, you gotta go through this complex data lifecycle on pipeline and beg people to add new data sources. And do you do you feel like we have to rethink the way that we approach data architectures? >>Look, I think we do in the cloud, and I think what's happening today and I think the place where I see the most amount of rethink the most amount of push from our customers to really rethink is the area of analytics in a I. It's almost as if what worked in the past will not work going forward. Right? So when you think about analytics on in the Enterprise today, you have relational systems, you have produced systems. You've got data marts. You've got data warehouses. You've got enterprise data warehouses. You know, those large honking databases that you use, uh, to close your books with right? But when you start to modernize it, what deep you are saying is that we don't want to simply take all of that complexity that we've built over say, you know, 34 decades and simply migrated on mass exactly as they are into the cloud. What they really want is a completely different way of looking at things. And I think this is where services like synapse completely provide a differentiated proposition to our customers. What we say there is land the data in any way you see shape or form inside the lake. Once you landed inside the lake, you can essentially use a synapse studio toe. Prep it in the way that you like, use any compute engine of your choice and and operate on this data in any way that you see fit. So, case in point, if you want to hydrate relation all data warehouse, you can do so if you want to do ad hoc analytics using something like spark. You can do so if you want to invoke power. Bi I on that data or b i on that data you can do so if you want to bring in a machine learning model on this breath data you can do so, so inherently. So when customers buy into this proposition, what it solves for them and what it gives them is complete simplicity, right? One way to land the data, multiple ways to use it. And it's all eso. >>Should we think of synapse as an abstraction layer that abstracts away the complexity of the underlying technology? Is that a fair way toe? Think about it. >>Yeah, you can think of it that way. It abstracts away, Dave a couple of things. It takes away the type of data, you know, sort of the complexities related to the type of data. It takes away the complexity related to the size of data. It takes away the complexity related to creating pipelines around all these different types of data and fundamentally puts it in a place where it can be now consumed by any sort of entity inside the actual proposition. And by that token, even data breaks. You know, you can, in fact, use data breaks in in sort off an integrated way with a synapse, Right, >>Well, so that leads me to this notion of and then wonder if you buy into it s Oh, my inference is that a data warehouse or a data lake >>could >>just be a node in inside of a global data >>mesh on. >>Then it's synapses sort of managing, uh, that technology on top. Do you buy into that that global data mesh concept >>we do. And we actually do see our customers using synapse and the value proposition that it brings together in that way. Now it's not where they start. Often times when a customer comes and says, Look, I've got an enterprise data warehouse, I want to migrate it or I have a group system. I want to migrate it. But from there, the evolution is absolutely interesting to see. I give you an example. You know, one of the customers that we're very proud off his FedEx And what FedEx is doing is it's completely reimagining its's logistics system that basically the system that delivers What is it? The three million packages a day on in doing so in this covert times, with the view of basically delivering our covert vaccines. One of the ways they're doing it is basically using synapse. Synapse is essentially that analytic hub where they can get complete view into their logistic processes. Way things are moving, understand things like delays and really put all that together in a way that they can essentially get our packages and these vaccines delivered as quickly as possible. Another example, you know, is one of my favorite, uh, we see once customers buy into it, they essentially can do other things with it. So an example of this is, uh is really my favorite story is Peace Parks Initiative. It is the premier Air White Rhino Conservancy in the world. They essentially are using data that has landed in azure images in particular. So, basically, you know, use drones over the vast area that they patrol and use machine learning on this data to really figure out where is an issue and where there isn't an issue so that this part with about 200 rangers can scramble surgically versus having to read range across the last area that they cover. So What do you see here is you know, the importance is really getting your data in order. Landed consistently. Whatever the kind of data ideas build the right pipelines and then the possibilities of transformation are just endless. >>Yeah, that's very nice how you worked in some of the customer examples. I appreciate that. I wanna ask you, though, that that some people might say that putting in that layer while it clearly adds simplification and e think a great thing that they're begins over time to be be a gap, if you will, between the ability of that layer to integrate all the primitives and all the peace parts on that, that you lose some of that fine grain control and it slows you down. What would you say to that? >>Look, I think that's what we excel at, and that's what we completely sort of buy into on. It's our job to basically provide that level off integration that granularity in the way that so it's an art, absolutely admit it's an art. There are areas where people create simplicity and not a lot of you know, sort of knobs and dials and things like that. But there are areas where customers want flexibility, right? So I think just to give you an example of both of them in landing the data inconsistency in building pipelines, they want simplicity. They don't want complexity. They don't want 50 different places to do this. Just 100 to do it. When it comes to computing and reducing this data analyzing this data, they want flexibility. This is one of the reasons why we say, Hey, listen, you want to use data breaks? If you're you're buying into that proposition and you're absolutely happy with them, you can plug plug it into it. You want to use B I and no, essentially do a small data mart. You can use B I If you say that. Look, I've landed in the lake. I really only want to use em melt, bringing your animal models and party on. So that's where the flexibility comes in. So that's sort of really sort of think about it. Well, >>I like the strategy because, you know, my one of our guest, Jim Octagon, e E. I think one of the foremost thinkers on this notion of off the data mesh and her premises that that that data builders, data product and service builders air frustrated because the the big data system is generic to context. There's no context in there. But by having context in the big data architecture and system, you could get products to market much, much, much faster. So but that seems to be your philosophy. But I'm gonna jump ahead to do my ecosystem question. You've mentioned data breaks a couple of times. There's another partner that you have, which is snowflake. They're kind of trying to build out their own, uh, data cloud, if you will, on global mesh in and the one hand, their partner. On the other hand, there are competitors. How do you sort of balance and square that circle? >>Look, when I see snowflake, I actually see a partner. You know that when we essentially you know, we are. When you think about as you know, this is where I sort of step back and look at Azure as a whole and in azure as a whole. Companies like snowflakes are vital in our ecosystem, right? I mean, there are places we compete, but you know, effectively by helping them build the best snowflake service on Asia. We essentially are able toe, you know, differentiate and offer a differentiated value proposition compared to, say, a Google or on AWS. In fact, that's being our approach with data breaks as well, where you know they are effectively on multiple club, and our opportunity with data breaks is toe essentially integrate them in a way where we offer the best experience. The best integrations on Azure Barna That's always been a focus. >>That's hard to argue with. Strategy. Our data with our data partner eat er, shows Microsoft is both pervasive and impressively having a lot of momentum spending velocity within the budget cycles. I wanna come back thio ai a little bit. It's obviously one of the fastest growing areas in our in our survey data. As I said, clearly, Microsoft is a leader in this space. What's your what's your vision of the future of machine intelligence and how Microsoft will will participate in that opportunity? >>Yeah, so fundamentally, you know, we've built on decades of research around, you know, around, you know, essentially, you know, vision, speech and language that's being the three core building blocks and for the for a really focused period of time we focused on essentially ensuring human parody. So if you ever wondered what the keys to the kingdom are it, czar, it's the most we built in ensuring that the research posture that we've taken there, what we then done is essentially a couple of things we focused on, essentially looking at the spectrum. That is a I both from saying that, Hollis and you know it's gotta work for data. Analysts were looking toe basically use machine learning techniques, toe developers who are essentially, you know, coding and building a machine learning models from scratch. So for that select proposition manifesto us, as you know, really a. I focused on all skill levels. The other court thing we've done is that we've also said, Look, it will only work as long as people trust their data and they can trust their AI models. So there's a tremendous body of work and research we do in things like responsibility. So if you ask me where we sort of push on is fundamentally to make sure that we never lose sight of the fact that the spectrum off a I, and you can sort of come together for any skill level, and we keep that responsibly. I proposition. Absolutely strong now against that canvas, Dave. I'll also tell you that you know, as edge devices get way more capable, right where they can input on the edge, see a camera or a mike or something like that, you will see us pushing a lot more of that capability onto the edge as well. But to me, that's sort of a modality. But the core really is all skill levels and that responsible denia. >>Yeah, So that that brings me to this notion of wanna bring an edge and and hybrid cloud Understand how you're thinking about hybrid cloud multi cloud. Obviously one of your competitors, Amazon won't even say the word multi cloud you guys have, Ah, you know, different approach there. But what's the strategy with regard? Toe, toe hybrid. You know, Do you see the cloud you bringing azure to the edge? Maybe you could talk about that and talk about how you're different from the competition. >>Yeah, I think in the edge from Annette, you know, I live in I'll be the first one to say that the word nge itself is conflated. Okay, It's, uh but I will tell you, just focusing on hybrid. This is one of the places where you know I would say the 2020 if I would have looked back from a corporate perspective. In particular, it has Bean the most informative because we absolutely saw customers digitizing moving to the cloud. And we really saw hybrid in action. 2020 was the year that hybrid sort of really became really from a cloud computing perspective and an example of this is we understood it's not all or nothing. So sometimes customers want azure consistency in their data centers. This is where things like Azure stack comes in. Sometimes they basically come to us and say, We want the flexibility of adopting flexible pattern, you know, platforms like, say, containers orchestra, Cuban Pettis, so that we can essentially deployed wherever you want. And so when we design things like art, it was built for that flexibility in mind. So here is the beauty of what's something like our can do for you. If you have a kubernetes endpoint anywhere we can deploy and as your service onto it, that is the promise, which means if for some reason, the customer says that. Hey, I've got this kubernetes endpoint in AWS and I love as your sequel. You will be able to run as your sequel inside AWS. There's nothing that stops you from doing it so inherently you remember. Our first principle is always to meet our customers where they are. So from that perspective, multi cloud is here to stay. You know, we're never going to be the people that says, I'm sorry, we will never see a But it is a reality for our customers. >>So I wonder if we could close. Thank you for that by looking, looking back and then and then ahead. And I wanna e wanna put forth. Maybe it's, Ah criticism, but maybe not. Maybe it's an art of Microsoft, but But first you know, you get Microsoft an incredible job of transitioning. It's business as your nominee president Azzawi said. Our data shows that so two part question First, Microsoft got there by investing in the cloud, really changing its mind set, I think, in leveraging its huge software state and customer base to put Azure at the center of its strategy, and many have said me included that you got there by creating products that air Good enough. You know, we do a 1.0, it's not that great. And the two Dato, and maybe not the best, but acceptable for your customers. And that's allowed you to grow very rapidly expanding market. >>How >>do you respond to that? Is that is that a fair comment? Ume or than good enough? I wonder if you could share your >>thoughts, gave you? You hurt my feelings with that question. I don't hate me, g getting >>it out there. >>So there was. First of all, thank you for asking me that. You know, I am absolutely the biggest cheerleader. You'll find a Microsoft. I absolutely believe you know that I represent the work off almost 9000 engineers and we wake up every day worrying about our customer and worrying about the customer condition and toe. Absolutely. Make sure we deliver the best in the first time that we do. So when you take the platter off products we've delivered in nausea, be it as your sequel, be it as your cosmos TV synapse as your data breaks, which we did in partnership with data breaks, a za machine learning and recently when we prevail, we sort off, you know, sort of offered the world's first comprehensive data government solution in azure purview. I would humbly submit to you that we're leading the way and we're essentially showing how the future off data ai and the actual work in the cloud. >>I'd be disappointed if you if you had If you didn't, if you capitulated in any way J g So so thank you for that. And the kind of last question is, is looking forward and how you're thinking about the future of cloud last decade. A lot about your cloud migration simplifying infrastructure management, deployment SAS if eyeing my enterprise, lot of simplification and cost savings. And, of course, the redeployment of resource is toward digital transformation. Other other other valuable activities. How >>do >>you think this coming decade will will be defined? Will it be sort of more of the same? Or is there Is there something else out there? >>I think I think that the coming decade will be one where customers start one law outside value out of this. You know what happened in the last decade when people leave the foundation and people essentially looked at the world and said, Look, we've got to make the move, you know, the largely hybrid, but we're going to start making steps to basically digitize and modernize our platforms. I would tell you that with the amount of data that people are moving to the cloud just as an example, you're going to see use of analytics ai for business outcomes explode. You're also going to see a huge sort of focus on things like governance. You know, people need to know where the data is, what the data catalog continues, how to govern it, how to trust this data and given all other privacy and compliance regulations out there. Essentially, they're complying this posture. So I think the unlocking of outcomes versus simply Hey, I've saved money Second, really putting this comprehensive sort off, you know, governance, regime in place. And then, finally, security and trust. It's going to be more paramount than ever before. Yeah, >>nobody's gonna use the data if they don't trust it. I'm glad you brought up your security. It's It's a topic that hits number one on the CEO list. J G. Great conversation. Obviously the strategy is working, and thanks so much for participating in Cuba on cloud. >>Thank you. Thank you, David. I appreciate it and thank you to. Everybody was tuning in today. >>All right? And keep it right there. I'll be back with our next guest right after this short break.

(gentle music) >> From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston, connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is theCube Conversation. >> Hi everybody, this is Dave Vellante, we're back at Cube on Cloud, and with me is Muddu Sudhakar. He's a long time alum of theCube, a technologist and executive, a serial entrepreneur and an investor. Welcome my friend, good to see you. >> Good to see you, Dave. Pleasure to be with you. Happy elections, I guess. >> Yeah, yeah. So I wanted to start, this work from home, pivot's been amazing, and you've seen the enterprise collaboration explode. I wrote a piece a couple months ago, looking at valuations of various companies, right around the snowflake IPO, I want to ask you about that, but I was looking at the valuations of various companies, at Spotify, and Shopify, and of course Zoom was there. And I was looking at just simple revenue multiples, and I said, geez, Zoom actually looks, might look undervalued, which is crazy, right? And of course the stock went up after that, and you see teams, Microsoft Teams, and Microsoft doing a great job across the board, we've written about that, you're seeing Webex is exploding, I mean, what do you make of this whole enterprise collaboration play? >> No, I think the look there is a trend here, right? So I think this probably trend started before COVID, but COVID is going to probably accelerate this whole digital transformation, right? People are going to work remotely a lot more, not everybody's going to come back to the offices even after COVID, so I think this whole collaboration through Slack, and Zoom, and Microsoft Teams and Webex, it's going to be the new game now, right? Both the video, audio and chat solutions, that's really going to help people like eyeballs. You're not going to spend time on all four of them, right? It's like everyday from a consumer side, you're going to spend time on your Gmail, Facebook, maybe Twitter, maybe Instagram, so like in the consumer side, on your personal life, you have something on the enterprise. The eyeballs are going to be in these platforms. >> Yeah. Well. >> But we're not going to take everything. >> Well, So you are right, there's a permanence to this, and I got a lot of ground to cover with you. And I always like our conversations mood because you tell it like it is, I'm going to stay on that work from home pivot. You know a lot about security, but you've seen three big trends, like mega trends in security, Endpoint, Identity Access Management, and Cloud Security, you're seeing this in the stock prices of companies like CrowdStrike, Zscaler, Okta- >> Right >> Sailpoint- >> Right, I mean, they exploded, as a result of the pandemic, and I think I'm inferring from your comment that you see that as permanent, but that's a real challenge from a security standpoint. What's the impact of Cloud there? >> No, it isn't impact but look, first is all the services required to be Cloud, right? See, the whole ideas for it to collaborate and do these things. So you cannot be running an application, like you can't be running conference and SharePoint oN-Prem, and try to on a Zoom and MS teams. So that's why, if you look at Microsoft is very clever, they went with Office 365, SharePoint 365, now they have MS Teams, so I think that Cloud is going to drive all these workloads that you have been talking about a lot, right? You and John have been saying this for years now. The eruption of Cloud and SAS services are the vehicle to drive this next-generation collaboration. >> You know what's so cool? So Cloud obviously is the topic, I wonder how you look at the last 10 years of Cloud, and maybe we could project forward, I mean the big three Cloud vendors, they're running it like $20 billion a quarter, and they're growing collectively, 35, 40% clips, so we're really approaching a hundred billion dollars for these three. And you hear stats like only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, so it feels like we're just getting started. How do you look at the impact of Cloud on the market, as you say, the last 10 years, and what do you expect going forward? >> No, I think it's very fascinating, right? So I remember when theCube, you guys are talking about 10 years back, now it's been what? More than 10 years, 15 years, since AWS came out with their first S3 service back in 2006. >> Right. >> Right? so I think look, Cloud is going to accelerate even more further. The areas is going to accelerate is for different reasons. I think now you're seeing the initial days, it's all about startups, initial workloads, Dev test and QA test, now you're talking about real production workloads are moving towards Cloud, right? Initially it was backup, we really didn't care for backup they really put there. Now you're going to have Cloud health primary services, your primary storage will be there, it's not going to be an EMC, It's not going to be a NetApp storage, right? So workloads are going to shift from the business applications, and these business applications, will be running on the Cloud, and I'll make another prediction, make customer service and support. Customer service and support, again, we should be running on the Cloud. You're not want to run the thing on a Dell server, or an IBM server, or an HP server, with your own hosted environment. That model is not because there's no economies of scale. So to your point, what will drive Cloud for the next 10 years, will be economies of scale. Where can you take the cost? How can I save money? If you don't move to the Cloud, you won't save money. So all those workloads are going to go to the Cloud are people who really want to save, like global gradual custom, right? If you stay on the ASP model, a hosted, you're not going to save your costs, your costs will constantly go up from a SaaS perspective. >> So that doesn't bode well for all the On-prem guys, and you hear a lot of the vendors that don't own a Cloud that talk about repatriation, but the numbers don't support that. So what do those guys do? I mean, they're talking multi-Cloud, of course they're talking hybrid, that's IBM's big play, how do you see it? >> I think, look, see there, to me, multi-Cloud makes sense, right? You don't want one vendor that you never want to get, so having Amazon, Microsoft, Google, it gives them a multi-Cloud. Even hybrid Cloud does make sense, right? There'll be some workloads. It's like, we are still running On-prem environment, we still have mainframe, so it's never going to be a hundred percent, but I would say the majority, your question is, can we get to 60, 70, 80% workers in the next 10 years? I think you will. I think by 2025, more than 78% of the Cloud Migration by the next five years, 70% of workload for enterprise will be on the Cloud. The remaining 25, maybe Hybrid, maybe On-prem, but I get panics, really doesn't matter. You have saved and part of your business is running on the Cloud. That's your cost saving, that's where you'll see the economies of scale, and that's where all the growth will happen. >> So square the circle for me, because again, you hear the stat on the IDC stat, IBM Ginni Rometty puts it out there a lot that only 20% of the workloads are in the public Cloud, everything else is On-prem, but it's not a zero sum game, right? I mean the Cloud native stuff is growing like crazy, the On-prem stuff is flat to down, so what's going to happen? When you talk about 70% of the workloads will be in the Cloud, do you see those mission critical apps and moving into the car, I mean the insurance companies going to put their claims apps in the Cloud, or the financial services companies going to put their mission critical workloads in the Cloud, or they just going to develop new stuff that's Cloud native that is sort of interacts with the On-prem. How do you see that playing out? >> Yeah, no, I think absolutely, I think a very good question. So two things will happen. I think if you take an enterprise, right? Most businesses what they'll do is the workloads that they should not be running On-prem, they'll move it up. So obviously things like take, as I said, I use the word SharePoint, right? SharePoint and conference, all the knowledge stuff is still running on people's data centers. There's no reason. I understand, I've seen statistics that 70, 80% of the On-prem for SharePoint will move to SharePoint on the Cloud. So Microsoft is going to make tons of money on that, right? Same thing, databases, right? Whether it's CQL server, whether there is Oracle database, things that you are running as a database, as a Cloud, we move to the Cloud. Whether that is posted in Oracle Cloud, or you're running Oracle or Mongo DB, or Dynamo DB on AWS or SQL server Microsoft, that's going to happen. Then what you're talking about is really the App concept, the applications themselves, the App server. Is the App server is going to run On-prem, how much it's going to laureate outside? There may be a hybrid Cloud, like for example, Kafka. I may use a Purse running on a Kafka as a service, or I may be using Elasticsearch for my indexing on AWS or Google Cloud, but I may be running my App locally. So there'll be some hybrid place, but what I would say is for every application, 75% of your Comprende will be on the Cloud. So think of it like the Dev. So even for the On-prem app, you're not going to be a 100 percent On-prem. The competent, the billing materials will move to the Cloud, your Purse, your storage, because if you put it On-prem, you need to add all this, you need to have all the whole things to buy it and hire the people, so that's what is going to happen. So from a competent perspective, 70% of your bill of materials will move to the Cloud, even for an On-prem application. >> So, Of course, the susification of the industry in the last decade and in my three favorite companies last decade, you've worked for two of them, Tableau, ServiceNow, and Splunk. I want to ask you about those, but I'm interested in the potential disruption there. I mean, you've got these SAS companies, Salesforce of course is another one, but they can't get started in 1999. What do you see happening with those? I mean, we're basically building these sort of large SAS, platforms, now. Do you think that the Cloud native world that developers can come at this from an angle where they can disrupt those companies, or are they too entrenched? I mean, look at service now, I mean, I don't know, $80 billion market capital where they are, they bigger than Workday, I mean, just amazing how much they've grown and you feel like, okay, nothing can stop them, but there's always disruption in this industry, what are your thoughts on that. >> Not very good with, I think there'll be disrupted. So to me actually to your point, ServiceNow is now close to a 100 billion now, 95 billion market coverage, crazy. So from evaluation perspective, so I think the reason they'll be disrupted is that the SAS vendors that you talked about, ServiceNow, and all this plan, most of these services, they're truly not a multi-tenant or what do you call the Cloud Native. And that is the Accenture. So because of that, they will not be able to pass the savings back to the enterprises. So the cost economics, the economics that the Cloud provides because of the multi tenancy ability will not. The second reason there'll be disrupted is AI. So far, we talked about Cloud, but AI is the core. So it's not really Cloud Native, Dave, I look at the AI in a two-piece. AI is going to change, see all the SAS vendors were created 20 years back, if you remember, was an operator typing it, I don't respond administered we'll type a Splunk query. I don't need a human to type a query anymore, system will actually find it, that's what the whole security game has changed, right? So what's going to happen is if you believe in that, that AI, your score will disrupt all the SAS vendors, so one angle SAS is going to have is a Cloud. That's where you make the Cloud will take up because a SAS application will be Cloudified. Being SAS is not Cloud, right? Second thing is SAS will be also, I call it, will be AI-fied. So AI and machine learning will be trying to drive at the core so that I don't need that many licenses. I don't need that many humans. I don't need that many administrators to manage, I call them the tuners. Once you get a driverless car, you don't need a thousand tuners to tune your Tesla, or Google Waymo car. So the same philosophy will happen is your Dev Apps, your administrators, your service management, people that you need for service now, and these products, Zendesk with AI, will tremendously will disrupt. >> So you're saying, okay, so yeah, I was going to ask you, won't the SAS vendors, won't they be able to just put, inject AI into their platforms, and I guess I'm inferring saying, yeah, but a lot of the problems that they're solving, are going to go away because of AI, is that right? And automation and RPA and things of that nature, is that right? >> Yes and no. So I'll tell you what, sorry, you have asked a very good question, let's answer, let me rephrase that question. What you're saying is, "Why can't the existing SAS vendors do the AI?" >> Yes, right. >> Right, >> And there's a reason they can't do it is their pricing model is by number of seats. So I'm not going to come to Dave, and say, come on, come pay me less money. It's the same reason why a board and general lover build an electric car. They're selling 10 million gasoline cars. There's no incentive for me, I'm not going to do any AI, I'm going to put, I'm not going to come to you and say, hey, buy me a hundred less license next year from it. So that is one reason why AI, even though these guys do any AI, it's going to be just so I call it, they're going to, what do you call it, a whitewash, kind of like you put some paint brush on it, trying to show you some AI you did from a marketing dynamics. But at the core, if you really implement the AI with you take the driver out, how are you going to change the pricing model? And being a public company, you got to take a hit on the pricing model and the price, and it's going to have a stocking part. So that, to your earlier question, will somebody disrupt them? The person who is going to disrupt them, will disrupt them on the pricing model. >> Right. So I want to ask you about that, because we saw a Snowflake, and it's IPO, we were able to pour through its S-1, and they have a different pricing model. It's a true Cloud consumption model, Whereas of course, most SAS companies, they're going to lock you in for at least one year term, maybe more, and then, you buy the license, you got to pay X. If you, don't use it, you still got to pay for it. Snowflake's different, actually they have a different problem, that people are using it too much and the sea is driving the CFO crazy because the bill is going up and up and up, but to me, that's the right model, It's just like the Amazon model, if you can justify it, so how do you see the pricing, that consumption model is actually, you're seeing some of the On-prem guys at HPE, Dell, they're doing as a service. They're kind of taking a page out of the last decade SAS model, so I think pricing is a real tricky one, isn't it? >> No, you nailed it, you nailed it. So I think the way in which the Snowflake there, how the disruptors are data warehouse, that disrupted the open source vendors too. Snowflake distributed, imagine the playbook, you disrupted something as the $ 0, right? It's an open source with Cloudera, Hortonworks, Mapper, that whole big data that you want me to, or that market is this, that disrupting data warehouses like Netezza, Teradata, and the charging more money, they're making more money and disrupting at $0, because the pricing models by consumption that you talked about. CMT is going to happen in the service now, Zen Desk, well, 'cause their pricing one is by number of seats. People are going to say, "How are my users are going to ask?" right? If you're an employee help desk, you're back to your original health collaborative. I may be on Slack, I could be on zoom, I'll maybe on MS Teams, I'm going to ask by using usage model on Slack, tools by employees to service now is the pricing model that people want to pay for. The more my employees use it, the more value I get. But I don't want to pay by number of seats, so the vendor, who's going to figure that out, and that's where I look, if you know me, I'm right over as I started, that's what I've tried to push that model look, I love that because that's the core of how you want to change the new game. >> I agree. I say, kill me with that problem, I mean, some people are trying to make it a criticism, but you hit on the point. If you pay more, it's only because you're getting more value out of it. So I wanted to flip the switch here a little bit and take a customer angle. Something that you've been on all sides. And I want to talk a little bit about strategies, you've been a strategist, I guess, once a strategist, always a strategist. How should organizations be thinking about their approach to Cloud, it's cost different for different industries, but, back when the cube started, financial services Cloud was a four-letter word. But of course the age of company is going to matter, but what's the framework for figuring out your Cloud strategy to get to your 70% and really take advantage of the economics? Should I be Mono Cloud, Multi-Cloud, Multi-vendor, what would you advise? >> Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I actually call it the tech stack. Actually you and John taught me that what was the tech stack, like the lamp stack, I think there is a new Cloud stack needs to come, and that I think the bottomline there should be... First of all, anything with storage should be in the Cloud. I mean, if you want to start, whether you are, financial, doesn't matter, there's no way. I come from cybersecurity side, I've seen it. Your attackers will be more with insiders than being on the Cloud, so storage has to be in the Cloud then come compute, Kubernetes. If you really want to use containers and Kubernetes, it has to be in the public Cloud, leverage that have the computer on their databases. That's where it can be like if your data is so strong, maybe run it On-prem, maybe have it on a hosted model for when it comes to database, but there you have a choice between hybrid Cloud and public Cloud choice. Then on top when it comes to App, the app itself, you can run locally or anywhere, the App and database. Now the areas that you really want to go after to migrate is look at anything that's an enterprise workload that you don't need people to manage it. You want your own team to move up in the career. You don't want thousand people looking at... you don't want to have a, for example, IT administrators to call central people to the people to manage your compute storage. That workload should be more, right? You already saw Sierra moved out to Salesforce. We saw collaboration already moved out. Zoom is not running locally. You already saw SharePoint with knowledge management mode up, right? With a box, drawbacks, you name anything. The next global mode is a SAS workloads, right? I think Workday service running there, but work data will go into the Cloud. I bet at some point Zendesk, ServiceNow, then either they put it on the public Cloud, or they have to create a product and public Cloud. To your point, these public Cloud vendors are at $2 trillion market cap. They're they're bigger than the... I call them nation States. >> Yeah, >> So I'm servicing though. I mean, there's a 2 trillion market gap between Amazon and Azure, I'm not going to compete with them. So I want to take this workload to run it there. So all these vendors, if you see that's where Shandra from Adobe is pushing this right, Adobe, Workday, Anaplan, all the SAS vendors we'll move them into the public Cloud within these vendors. So those workloads need to move out, right? So that all those things will start, then you'll start migrating, but I call your procurement. That's where the RPA comes in. The other thing that we didn't talk about, back to your first question, what is the next 10 years of Cloud will be RPA? That third piece to Cloud is RPA because if you have your systems On-prem, I can't automate them. I have to do a VPN into your house there and then try to automate your systems, or your procurement, et cetera. So all these RPA vendors are still running On-prem, most of them, whether it's UI path automation anywhere. So the Cloud should be where the brain should be. That's what I call them like the octopus analogy, the brain is in the Cloud, the tentacles are everywhere, they should manage it. But if my tentacles have to do a VPN with your house to manage it, I'm always will have failures. So if you look at the why RPA did not have the growth, like the Snowflake, like the Cloud, because they are running it On-prem, most of them still. 80% of the RP revenue is On-prem, running On-prem, that needs to be called clarified. So AI, RPA and the SAS, are the three reasons Cloud will take off. >> Awesome. Thank you for that. Now I want to flip the switch again. You're an investor or a multi-tool player here, but so if you're, let's say you're an ecosystem player, and you're kind of looking at the landscape as you're in an investor, of course you've invested in the Cloud, because the Cloud is where it's at, but you got to be careful as an ecosystem player to pick a spot that both provides growth, but allows you to have a moat as, I mean, that's why I'm really curious to see how Snowflake's going to compete because they're competing with AWS, Microsoft, and Google, unlike, Frank, when he was at service now, he was competing with BMC and with on-prem and he crushed it, but the competitors are much more capable here, but it seems like they've got, maybe they've got a moat with MultiCloud, and that whole data sharing thing, we'll see. But, what about that? Where are the opportunities? Where's that white space? And I know there's a lot of white space, but what's the framework to look at, from an investor standpoint, or even a CEO standpoint, where you want to put place your bets. >> No, very good question, so look, I did something. We talk as an investor in the board with many companies, right? So one thing that says as an investor, if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Docker or a computer, there's no way nobody's going to invest. So that we can motor off, even if you want to do object storage or a block storage, I mean, I've been an investor board member of so many storage companies, there's no way as an industry, I'll write a check for a compute or storage, right? If you want to create a next generation network, like either NetSuite, or restart Juniper, Cisco, there is no way. But if you come back and say, I want to create a next generation Viper for remote working environments, where AI is at the core, I'm interested in that, right? So if you look at how the packets are dropped, there's no intelligence in either not switching today. The packets come, I do it. The intelligence is not built into the network with AI level. So if somebody comes with an AI, what good is all this NVD, our GPS, et cetera, if you cannot do wire speed, packet inspection, looking at the content and then route the traffic. If I see if it's a video package, but in UN Boston, there's high interview day of they should be loading our package faster, because you are a premium ISP. That intelligence has not gone there. So you will see, and that will be a bad people will happen in the network, switching, et cetera, right? So that is still an angle. But if you work and it comes to platform services, remember when I was at Pivotal and VMware, all models was my boss, that would, yes, as a platform, service is a game already won by the Cloud guys. >> Right. (indistinct) >> Silicon Valley Investors, I don't think you want to invest in past services, right? I mean, you might come with some lecture edition database to do some updates, there could be some game, let's say we want to do a time series database, or some metrics database, there's always some small angle, but the opportunity to go create a national database there it's very few. So I'm kind of eliminating all the black spaces, right? >> Yeah. >> We have the white spaces that comes in is the SAS level. Now to your point, if I'm Amazon, I'm going to compete with Snowflake, I have Redshift. So this is where at some point, these Cloud platforms, I call them aircraft carriers. They're not going to stay on the aircraft carriers, they're going to own the land as well. So they're going to move up to the SAS space. The question is you want to create a SAS service like CRM. They are not going to create a CRM like service, they may not create a sales force and service now, but if you're going to add a data warehouse, I can very well see Azure, Google, and AWS, going to create something to compute a Snowflake. Why would I not? It's so close to my database and data warehouse, I already have Redshift. So that's going to be nightlights, same reason, If you look at Netflix, you have a Netflix and you have Amazon prime. Netflix runs on Amazon, but you have Amazon prime. So you have the same model, you have Snowflake, and you'll have Redshift. The both will help each other, there'll be a... What do you call it? Coexistence will happen. But if you really want to invest, you want to invest in SAS companies. You do not want to be investing in a compliment players. You don't want to a feature. >> Yeah, that's great, I appreciate that perspective. And I wonder, so obviously Microsoft play in SAS, Google's got G suite. And I wonder if people often ask the Andy Jassy, you're going to move up the stack, you got to be an application, a SAS vendor, and you never say never with Atavist, But I wonder, and we were talking to Jerry Chen about this, years ago on theCube, and his angle was that Amazon will play, but they'll play through developers. They'll enable developers, and they'll participate, they'll take their, lick off the cone. So it's going to be interesting to see how directly Amazon plays, but at some point you got Tam expansion, you got to play in that space. >> Yeah, I'll give you an example of knowing, I got acquired by a couple of times by EMC. So I learned a lot from Joe Tucci and Paul Merage over the years. see Paul and Joe, what they did is to look at how 20 years, and they are very close to Boston in your area, Joe, what games did is they used to sell storage, but you know what he did, he went and bought the Apps to drive them. He bought like Legato, he bought Documentum, he bought Captiva, if you remember how he acquired all these companies as a services, he bought VMware to drive that. So I think the good angle that Microsoft has is, I'm a SAS player, I have dynamics, I have CRM, I have SharePoint, I have Collaboration, I have Office 365, MS Teams for users, and then I have the platform as Azure. So I think if I'm Amazon, (indistinct). I got to own the apps so that I can drive this workforce on my platform. >> Interesting. >> Just going to developers, like I know Jerry Chan, he was my peer a BMF. I don't think just literally to developers and that model works in open source, but the open source game is pretty much gone, and not too many companies made money. >> Well, >> Most companies pretty much gone. >> Yeah, he's right. Red hats not bad idea. But it's very interesting what you're saying there. And so, hey, its why Oracle wants to have Tiktok, running on their platform, right? I mean, it's going to. (laughing) It's going to drive that further integration. I wanted to ask you something, you were talking about, you wouldn't invest in storage or compute, but I wonder, and you mentioned some commentary about GPU's. Of course the videos has been going crazy, but they're now saying, okay, how do we expand our Team, they make the acquisition of arm, et cetera. What about this DPU thing, if you follow that, that data processing unit where they're like hyper dis-aggregation and then they reaggregate, and as an offload and really to drive data centric workloads. Have you looked at that at all? >> I did, I think, and that's a good angle. So I think, look, it's like, it goes through it. I don't know if you remember in your career, we have seen it. I used to get Silicon graphics. I saw the first graphic GPU, right? That time GPU was more graphic processor unit, >> Right, yeah, work stations. >> So then become NPUs at work processing units, right? There was a TCP/IP office offloading, if you remember right, there was like vector processing unit. So I think every once in a while the industry, recreated this separate unit, as a co-processor to the main CPU, because main CPU's inefficient, and it makes sense. And then Google created TPU's and then we have the new world of the media GPU's, now we have DPS all these are good, but what's happening is, all these are driving for machine learning, AI for the training period there. Training period Sometimes it's so long with the workloads, if you can cut down, it makes sense. >> Yeah. >> Because, but the question is, these aren't so specialized in nature. I can't use it for everything. >> Yup. >> I want Ideally, algorithms to be paralyzed, I want the training to be paralyzed, I want so having deep use and GPS are important, I think where I want to see them as more, the algorithm, there should be more investment from the NVIDIA's and these guys, taking the algorithm to be highly paralyzed them. (indistinct) And I think that still has not happened in industry yet. >> All right, so we're pretty much out of time, but what are you doing these days? Where are you spending your time, are you still in Stealth, give us a little glimpse. >> Yeah, no, I'm out of the Stealth, I'm actually the CEO of Aisera now, Aisera, obviously I invested with them, but I'm the CEO of Aisero. It's funded by Menlo ventures, Norwest, True, along with Khosla ventures and Ram Shriram is a big investor. Robin's on the board of Google, so these guys, look, we are going out to the collaboration game. How do you automate customer service and support for employees and then users, right? In this whole game, we talked about the Zoom, Slack and MS Teams, that's what I'm spending time, I want to create next generation service now. >> Fantastic. Muddu, I always love having you on you, pull punches, you tell it like it is, that you're a great visionary technologist. Thanks so much for coming on theCube, and participating in our program. >> Dave, it's always a pleasure speaking to you sir. Thank you. >> Okay. Keep it right there, there's more coming from Cuba and Cloud right after this break. (slow music)

>> From The Cube Studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought-leaders all around the world, this is a Cube Conversation. >> Hello, everyone, and welcome to this Cube Conversation, I'm Dave Vellante. Now, you know I love data, and today we're going to introduce you to a new data and analytical platform, and we're going to take it to the world of cloud database and data warehouses. And with me is Sagar Kadakia who's the head of Enterprise IT (indistinct) 7Park Data. Sagar, welcome back to the Cube. Good to see you. >> Thank you so much, David. I appreciate you having me back on. >> Hey, so new gig for you, how's it going? Tell us about 7Park Data. >> Yeah. Look, things are going well. It started at about two months ago, just a, you know, busy. I had a chance last, you know a few months to kind of really dig into the dataset. We have a tremendous amount of research coming out in Q4 Q1 around kind of the public cloud database market public cloud analytics market. So, you know, really looking forward to that. >> Okay, good. Well, let's bring up the first slide. Let's talk about where this data comes from. Tell us a little bit more about the platform. Where's the insight. >> Yeah, absolutely. So I'll talk a little about 7Park and then we'd kind of jump into the data a little bit. So 7Park was founded in 2012 in terms of differentiator, you know with other alternative data firms, you know we use NLP machine learning, you know AI to really kind of, you know, structure like noisy and unstructured data sets really kind of generate insight from that. And so, because a lot of that know how we ended up being acquired by Vista back in 2018. And really like for us, you know the mandate there is to really, you know look across all their different portfolio companies and try to generate insight from all the data assets you know, that these portfolio companies have. So, you know, today we're going to be talking about you know, one of the data sets from those companies it's that cloud infrastructure data set. We get it from one of the portfolio companies that you know, helps organizations kind of manage and optimize their cloud spend. It's real time data. We essentially get this aggregated daily. So this certainly different than, you know your traditional providers maybe giving you quarterly or kind of by annual data. This is incredibly granular, real time all the way down to the invoice level. So within this cloud infrastructure dataset we're tracking several billion dollars worth of spend across AWS, Azure and GCP. Something like 350 services across like 20 plus markets. So, you know, security machine learning analytics database which we're going to talk about today. And again like the granularity of the KPIs I think is kind of really what kind of you know, differentiates this dataset you know, with just within database itself, you know we're tracking over 20 services. So, you know, lots to kind of look forward to kind of into Q4 and Q1. >> So, okay. So the main spring of your data is if I'm a customer and I there's a service out there there are many services like this that can help me optimize my spend and the way they do that is I basically connect their APIs. So they have visibility on what the transactions that I'm making my usage statistics et cetera. And then you take that and then extrapolate that and report on that. Is that right? >> Exactly. Yeah. We're seeing just on this one data set that we're going to talk about today, it's something like six 700 million rows worth of data. And so kind of what we do is, you know we kind of have the insight layer on top of that or the analytics layer on top of all that unstructured data, so that we can get a feel for, you know a whole host of different kind of KPIs spend, adoption rates, market share, you know product size, retention rates, spend, you know, net price all that type of stuff. So, yeah, that's exactly what we're doing. >> Love it, there's more transparency the better. Okay. So, so right, because this whole world of market sizing has been very opaque you know, over the years, and it's like you know, backroom conversations, whether it's IDC, Gartner who's got what don't take, you know and the estimations and it's very, very, you know it's not very transparent so I'm excited to see what you guys have. Okay. So, so you have some data on the public cloud and specifically the database market that you want to share with our audience. Let's bring up the next graphic here. What are we looking at here Sagar? What are these blue lines and red lines what's this all about? >> Yeah. So and look, we can kind of start at the kind of the 10,000 foot view kind of level here. And so what we're looking at here is our estimates for the entire kind of cloud database market, including data warehousing. If you look all the way over to the right I'll kind of explain some of these bars in a minute but just high level, you know we're forecasting for this year, $11.8 billion. Now something to kind of remember about that is that's just AWS, Azure and GCP, right? So that's not the entire cloud database market. It's just specific to those three providers. What you're looking at here is the breakout and blue and purple is SQL databases and then no SQL databases. And so, you know, to no one's surprise here and you can see, you know SQL database is obviously much larger from a revenue standpoint. And so you can see just from this time last year, you know the database market has grown 40% among these three cloud providers. And, you know, though, we're not showing it here, you know from like a PI perspective, you know database is playing a larger and larger role for all three of these providers. And so obviously this is a really hot market, which is why, you know we're kind of discussing a lot of the dynamics. You don't need to Q and Q Q4 and Q1 >> So, okay. Let's get into some of the specific firm-level data. You have numbers that you want to share on Amazon Redshift and Google BigQuery, and some comments on Snowflake let's bring up the next graphic. So tell us, it says public cloud data, warehousing growth tempered by Snowflake, what's the data showing. And let's talk about some of the implications there. >> Yeah, no problem. So yeah, this is kind of one of the markets, you know that we kind of did a deep dive in tomorrow and we'll kind of get this, you know, get to this in a few minutes, we're kind of doing a big CIO panel kind of covering data, warehousing, RDBMS documents store key value, graph all these different database markets but I thought it'd be great, you know just cause obviously what's occurring here and with snowflake to kind of talk about, you know the data warehousing market, you know, look if you look here, these are some of the KPIs that we have you know, and I'll kind of start from the left. Here are some of the orange bars, the darker orange bars. Those are our estimates for AWS Redshift. And so you can see here, you know we're projecting about 667 million in revenue for Redshift. But if you look at the lighter arm bars, you can see that the service went from representing about 2% of you know, AWS revenue to about 1.5%. And we think some of that is because of Snowflake. And if we kind of, take a look at some of these KPIs you know, below those bar charts here, you know one of the things that we've been looking at is, you know how are longer-term customer spending and how are let's just say like newer customers spending, so to speak. So kind of just like organic growth or kind of net expansion analysis. And if you look at on the bottom there, you'll see, you know customers in our dataset that we looked at, you know that were there 3Q20 as well as 3Q19 their spend on AWS Redshift is 23%. Right? And then look at the bifurcation, right? When we include essentially all the new customers that onboard it, right after 3Q19, look at how much they're bringing down the spend increase. And it's because, you know a lot of spend that was perhaps meant for Redshift is now going to Snowflake. And look, you would expect longer-term customers to spend more than newer customers. But really what we're doing is here is really highlighting the stark contrast because you have kind of back to back KPIs here, you know between organic spend versus total spend and obviously the deceleration in market share kind of coming down. So, you know, something that's interesting here and we'll kind of continue tracking that. >> Okay. So let's maybe come back to this mass Colombo questions here. So the start with the orange side. So we're talking about Snowflake being 667 million. These are your estimates extrapolated based on what we talked about earlier, 1.5% of the AWS portfolio of course you see things like, they continue to grow. Amazon made a bunch of storage announcements last week at the first week of re-invent (indistinct) I mean just name all kinds of databases. And so it's competing with a lot of other services in the portfolio and then, but it's interesting to see Google BigQuery a much larger percentage of the portfolio, which again to me, makes sense people like BigQuery. They like the data science components that are built in the machine learning components that are built in. But then if you look at Snowflake's last quarter and just on a run rate basis, it's over there over $600 million. Now, if you just multiply their last quarter by four from a revenue standpoint. So they got Redshift in their sites, you know if this is, you know to the extent this is the correct number and I know it's an estimate but I haven't seen any better numbers out there. Interesting Sagar, I mean Snowflake surpassed the value of snowflakes or past service now last Friday, it's probably just in trading today you know, on Monday it's maybe Snowflake is about a billion dollars less than the in value than IBM. So you're saying snowflake in a lot of attention, post IPO the thing is even exploded more. I mean, it's crazy. And I presume that's rippled into the customer interest areas. Now the ironic thing here of course, is that that snowflake most of its revenue comes from AWS running on AWS at the same time, AWS and or Redshift and snowflake compete. So you have this interesting dynamic going on. >> Yeah. You know, we've spoken to so many CIOs about kind of the dynamics here with Redshift and BigQuery and Snowflake, you know as it kind of pertains to, you know, Redshift and Snowflake. I think, you know, what I've heard the most is, look if you're using Redshift, you're going to keep using it. But if you're new to data warehousing kind of, so to speak you're going to move to Snowflake, or you're going to start with Snowflake, you know, that and I think, you know when it comes to data warehousing, you're seeing a lot of decisions kind of coming from, you know, bottom up now. So a lot of developers and so obviously their preference is going to be Snowflake. And then when you kind of look at BigQuery here over to the right again, like look you're seeing revenue growth, but again, as a as a percentage of total, you know, GCP revenue you're seeing it come down and look, we don't show it here. But another dynamic that we're seeing amongst BigQuery is that we are seeing adoption rates fall versus this time last year. So we think, again, that could be because of Snowflake. Now, one thing to kind of highlight here with BigQuery look it's kind of the low cost alternative, you know, so to speak, you know once Redshift gets too expensive, so to speak, you know you kind of move over to, to BigQuery and we kind of put some price KPIs down here all the way at the bottom of the chart, you know kind of for both of them, you know when you kind of think about the net price per kind of TB scan, you know, Redshift does it pro rate right? It's five bucks or whatever you, you know whatever you scan in, whereas, you know GCP and get the first terabyte for free. And then everything is prorated after that. And so you can see the net price, right? So that's the price that people actually pay. You can see it's significantly lower that than Redshift. And again, you know it's a lower cost alternative. And so when you think about, you know organizations or CIO's that want to save some money certainly BigQuery, you know, is an option. But certainly I think just overall, you know, Snowflake is is certainly having, you know, an impact here and you can see it from, you know the percentage of total revenue for both these coming down. You know, if we look at other AWS database services or you mentioned a few other services, you know we're not seeing that trend, we're seeing, you know percentage of total revenue hang in or accelerate. And so that's kind of why we want to point this out as this is something unique, you know for AWS and GCP where even though you're seeing growth, it's decelerating. And then of course you can kind of see the percentage of revenue represents coming down. >> I think it's interesting to look at these two companies and then of course Snowflake. So if you think about Snowflake and BigQuery both of those started in the cloud they were true born in the cloud databases. Whereas Redshift was a deal that Amazon did, you know with parxl back in the day, one time license fee and then they re-engineered it to be kind of cloud based. And so there is some of that historical o6n-prem baggage in there. I know that AWS did a tremendous job in rearchitecting that but nonetheless, so I'll give you a couple of examples. If you go back to last year's reinvent 2019 of course Snowflake was really the first to popularize this idea of separating compute from storage and even compute from compute, which is kind of nuance. So I won't go into that, but the idea being you can dial up or dial down compute as you need it you can even turn off compute in the world of Snowflake and just, you know, you're paying an S3 for storage charges. What Amazon did last reinvent was they announced the separation of compute and storage, but what the way they did it was they did it with a tiering architecture. So you can't ever actually fully turn off the compute, but it's great. I mean, it's customers I've talked to say, yes I'm saving a lot of money, you know, with this approach. But again, there's these little nuances. So what Snowflake announced this year was their data cloud and what the data cloud is as a whole new architecture. It's based on this global mesh. It lives across both AWS and Azure and GCP. And what Snowflake has done is they've taken they've abstracted the complexity of the clouds. So you don't even necessarily have to know what you're running on. You have to worry about it any Snowflake user inside of that data cloud if given access can share data with any other user. So it's a very powerful concept that they're doing. AWS at reinvent this year announced something called AWS glue elastic views which basically allows you to take data across their entire database portfolio. And I'm going to put, share in quotes. And I put it in quotes because it's essentially doing copying from a source pushing to a target AWS database and then doing a change data management capture and pushes that over time. So it, it feels like kind of an attempt to do their own data cloud. The advantages of AWS is that they've got way more data stores than just Snowflake cause it's one data store. So was AWS says Aurora dynamo DB Redshift on and on and on streaming databases, et cetera where Snowflake is just Snowflake. And so it's going to be interesting to see, you know these two juxtaposing philosophies but I want it to sort of lay that out because this is just it's setting up as a really interesting dynamic. Then you can bring in Azure as well with Microsoft and what they're doing. And I think this is going to be really fascinating to see how this plays out over the next decade. >> Yeah. I think some of the points you brought up maybe a little bit earlier were just around like the functional limits of a Redshift. Right. And I think that's where, you know Snowflake obviously does it does very, very well you know, you kind of have these, you know kind of to come, you know, you kind of have these, you know if you kind of think about like the market drivers right? Like, let's think about even like the prior slide that we showed, where we saw overall you know, database growth, like what's driving all of that what's driving Redshift, right. Obviously proximity application, interdependencies, right. Costs. You get all the credits or people are already working with the big three providers. And so there's so many reasons to continue spending with them, obviously, you know, COVID-19 right. Obviously all these apps being developed right in the cloud versus data centers and things of that nature. So you have all of these market drivers, you know for the cloud database services for Redshift. And so from that perspective, you know you kind of think, well why are people even to go to a third party vendor? And I think, you know, at that point it has to be the functional superiority. And so again, like a lot of times it depends on, you know, where decisions are coming from you know, top down or bottom up obviously at the engineering at the developer level they're going to want better functionality. Maybe, you know, top-down sometimes, you know it's like, look, we have a lot of credits, you know we're trying to save money, you know from a security perspective it could just be easier to spin something up you know, in AWS, so to speak. So, yeah, I think these are all the dynamics that, you know organizations have to figure out every day, but at least within the data warehousing space, you are seeing spend go towards Snowflake and it's going away to an extent as we kind of see, you know growth decelerate for both of these vendors, right. It's not that revenue's not going out there is growth which is that growth is, it's just not the same as it used to be, you know, so to speak. So yeah, this is a interesting area to kind of watch and I think across all the other markets as well, you know when you think about document store, right you have AWS document DB, right. What are the impacts there with with Mongo and some of these other kind of third party data warehousing vendors, right. Having to compete with all the, you know all the different services offered by AWS Azure like the cosmos and all that stuff. So, yeah, it's definitely kind of turning into a battle Royal, you know as we kind of head into, into 2021. And so I think having all these KPIs is really helping us kind of break down and figure out, you know which areas like data warehousing are slowing down. But then what other areas in database where they're seeing a tremendous amount of acceleration, like as we said, database revenue is driving. Like it's becoming a bigger part of their overall revenue. And so they are doing well. It just, you know, there's obviously snowflake they have to compete with here. >> Well, and I think maybe to your point I infer from your point, it's not necessarily a zero sum game. And as I was discussing before, I think Snowflake's really trying to create a new market. It's not just trying to steal share from the Terra datas and the Redshifts and the PCPs of the world, big queries and and Azure SQL server and Oracle and so forth. They're trying to create a whole new concept called the data cloud, which to me is really important because my prediction is what Snowflake is doing. And they don't even really talk a ton about this but they sort of do, if you squint through the lines I think what they're doing is first of all, simplicity is there, what they're doing. And then they're putting data in the hands of business people, business line people who have domain context, that's a whole new way of thinking about a data architecture versus the prevalent way to do a data pipeline is you got data engineers and data scientists, and you ingest data. It's goes to the beginning of the pipeline and that's kind of a traditional way to do it. And kind of how I think most of the AWS customers do it. I think over time, because of the simplicity of Snowflake you're going to see people begin to look at new ways to architect data. Anyway, we're almost out of time here but I want to bring up the next slide which is a graphic, which talks about a database discussion that you guys are having on 12/8 at 2:00 PM Eastern time with Bain and Verizon who what's this all about. >> Yeah. So, you know, one of the things we wanted to do is we kind of kick off a lot of the, you know Q4 Q1 research or putting on the database spark. It is just like kind of, we did, you know we did today, which obviously, you know we're really going to expand on tomorrow at a at 2:00 PM is discuss all the different KPIs. You know, we track something like 20 plus database services. So we're going to be going through a lot more than just kind of Redshift and BigQuery. Look at all the dynamics there, look at, you know how they're very against some of the third party vendors like the Snowflake, like a Mongo DB, as an example we got some really great, you know, thought leaders you know, Michael Delzer and Praveen from verizon they're going to kind of help, or they're going to opine on all the dynamics that we're seeing. And so it's going to be a very kind of, you know structured wise, it's going to be very quantitative but then you're going to have this beautiful qualitative discussion to kind of help support a lot of the data points that we're capturing. And so, yeah, we're really excited about the panel you know, from, you know, why you should join standpoint. Look, it's just, it's great, competitive Intel. If you're a third party, you know, database, data warehousing vendor, this is the type of information that you're going to want to know, you know, adoption rates market sizing, retention rates, you know net price reservers, on demand dynamics. You know, we're going through a lot that tomorrow. So I'm really excited about that. I'm just in general, really excited about a lot of the research that we're kind of putting out. So >> That's interesting. I mean, and we were talking earlier about AWS glue elastic views. I'd love to see your view of all the database services from Amazon. Cause that's where it's really designed to do is leverage those across those. And you know, you listen to Andrew, Jesse talk they've got a completely different philosophy than say Oracle, which says, Hey we've got one database to do all things Amazon saying we need that fine granularity. So it's going to be again. And to the extent that you're providing market context they're very excited to see that data Sagar and see how that evolves over time. Really appreciate you coming back in the cube and look forward to working with you. >> Appreciate Dave. Thank you so much. >> All right. Welcome. Thank you everybody for watching. This is Dave Vellante for the cube. We'll see you next time. (upbeat music)