(upbeat music) >> Welcome everyone to theCUBE's presentation of the AWS Startup Showcase AI Machine Learning Top Startups Building Generative AI on AWS. This is season 3, episode 1 of the ongoing series covering the exciting startup from the AWS ecosystem to talk about AI and machine learning. I'm your host, John Furrier. I'm joined by two great guests here, Adam Wenchel, who's the CEO of Arthur, and Chief Scientist of Arthur, John Dickerson. Talk about how they help people build better LLM AI systems to get them into the market faster. Gentlemen, thank you for coming on. >> Yeah, thanks for having us, John. >> Well, I got to say I got to temper my enthusiasm because the last few months explosion of interest in LLMs with ChatGPT, has opened the eyes to everybody around the reality of that this is going next gen, this is it, this is the moment, this is the the point we're going to look back and say, this is the time where AI really hit the scene for real applications. So, a lot of Large Language Models, also known as LLMs, foundational models, and generative AI is all booming. This is where all the alpha developers are going. This is where everyone's focusing their business model transformations on. This is where developers are seeing action. So it's all happening, the wave is here. So I got to ask you guys, what are you guys seeing right now? You're in the middle of it, it's hitting you guys right on. You're in the front end of this massive wave. >> Yeah, John, I don't think you have to temper your enthusiasm at all. I mean, what we're seeing every single day is, everything from existing enterprise customers coming in with new ways that they're rethinking, like business things that they've been doing for many years that they can now do an entirely different way, as well as all manner of new companies popping up, applying LLMs to everything from generating code and SQL statements to generating health transcripts and just legal briefs. Everything you can imagine. And when you actually sit down and look at these systems and the demos we get of them, the hype is definitely justified. It's pretty amazing what they're going to do. And even just internally, we built, about a month ago in January, we built an Arthur chatbot so customers could ask questions, technical questions from our, rather than read our product documentation, they could just ask this LLM a particular question and get an answer. And at the time it was like state of the art, but then just last week we decided to rebuild it because the tooling has changed so much that we, last week, we've completely rebuilt it. It's now way better, built on an entirely different stack. And the tooling has undergone a full generation worth of change in six weeks, which is crazy. So it just tells you how much energy is going into this and how fast it's evolving right now. >> John, weigh in as a chief scientist. I mean, you must be blown away. Talk about kid in the candy store. I mean, you must be looking like this saying, I mean, she must be super busy to begin with, but the change, the acceleration, can you scope the kind of change you're seeing and be specific around the areas you're seeing movement and highly accelerated change? >> Yeah, definitely. And it is very, very exciting actually, thinking back to when ChatGPT was announced, that was a night our company was throwing an event at NeurIPS, which is maybe the biggest machine learning conference out there. And the hype when that happened was palatable and it was just shocking to see how well that performed. And then obviously over the last few months since then, as LLMs have continued to enter the market, we've seen use cases for them, like Adam mentioned all over the place. And so, some things I'm excited about in this space are the use of LLMs and more generally, foundation models to redesign traditional operations, research style problems, logistics problems, like auctions, decisioning problems. So moving beyond the already amazing news cases, like creating marketing content into more core integration and a lot of the bread and butter companies and tasks that drive the American ecosystem. And I think we're just starting to see some of that. And in the next 12 months, I think we're going to see a lot more. If I had to make other predictions, I think we're going to continue seeing a lot of work being done on managing like inference time costs via shrinking models or distillation. And I don't know how to make this prediction, but at some point we're going to be seeing lots of these very large scale models operating on the edge as well. So the time scales are extremely compressed, like Adam mentioned, 12 months from now, hard to say. >> We were talking on theCUBE prior to this session here. We had theCUBE conversation here and then the Wall Street Journal just picked up on the same theme, which is the printing press moment created the enlightenment stage of the history. Here we're in the whole nother automating intellect efficiency, doing heavy lifting, the creative class coming back, a whole nother level of reality around the corner that's being hyped up. The question is, is this justified? Is there really a breakthrough here or is this just another result of continued progress with AI? Can you guys weigh in, because there's two schools of thought. There's the, "Oh my God, we're entering a new enlightenment tech phase, of the equivalent of the printing press in all areas. Then there's, Ah, it's just AI (indistinct) inch by inch. What's your guys' opinion? >> Yeah, I think on the one hand when you're down in the weeds of building AI systems all day, every day, like we are, it's easy to look at this as an incremental progress. Like we have customers who've been building on foundation models since we started the company four years ago, particular in computer vision for classification tasks, starting with pre-trained models, things like that. So that part of it doesn't feel real new, but what does feel new is just when you apply these things to language with all the breakthroughs and computational efficiency, algorithmic improvements, things like that, when you actually sit down and interact with ChatGPT or one of the other systems that's out there that's building on top of LLMs, it really is breathtaking, like, the level of understanding that they have and how quickly you can accelerate your development efforts and get an actual working system in place that solves a really important real world problem and makes people way faster, way more efficient. So I do think there's definitely something there. It's more than just incremental improvement. This feels like a real trajectory inflection point for the adoption of AI. >> John, what's your take on this? As people come into the field, I'm seeing a lot of people move from, hey, I've been coding in Python, I've been doing some development, I've been a software engineer, I'm a computer science student. I'm coding in C++ old school, OG systems person. Where do they come in? Where's the focus, where's the action? Where are the breakthroughs? Where are people jumping in and rolling up their sleeves and getting dirty with this stuff? >> Yeah, all over the place. And it's funny you mentioned students in a different life. I wore a university professor hat and so I'm very, very familiar with the teaching aspects of this. And I will say toward Adam's point, this really is a leap forward in that techniques like in a co-pilot for example, everybody's using them right now and they really do accelerate the way that we develop. When I think about the areas where people are really, really focusing right now, tooling is certainly one of them. Like you and I were chatting about LangChain right before this interview started, two or three people can sit down and create an amazing set of pipes that connect different aspects of the LLM ecosystem. Two, I would say is in engineering. So like distributed training might be one, or just understanding better ways to even be able to train large models, understanding better ways to then distill them or run them. So like this heavy interaction now between engineering and what I might call traditional machine learning from 10 years ago where you had to know a lot of math, you had to know calculus very well, things like that. Now you also need to be, again, a very strong engineer, which is exciting. >> I interviewed Swami when he talked about the news. He's ahead of Amazon's machine learning and AI when they announced Hugging Face announcement. And I reminded him how Amazon was easy to get into if you were developing a startup back in 2007,8, and that the language models had that similar problem. It's step up a lot of content and a lot of expense to get provisioned up, now it's easy. So this is the next wave of innovation. So how do you guys see that from where we are right now? Are we at that point where it's that moment where it's that cloud-like experience for LLMs and large language models? >> Yeah, go ahead John. >> I think the answer is yes. We see a number of large companies that are training these and serving these, some of which are being co-interviewed in this episode. I think we're at that. Like, you can hit one of these with a simple, single line of Python, hitting an API, you can boot this up in seconds if you want. It's easy. >> Got it. >> So I (audio cuts out). >> Well let's take a step back and talk about the company. You guys being featured here on the Showcase. Arthur, what drove you to start the company? How'd this all come together? What's the origination story? Obviously you got a big customers, how'd get started? What are you guys doing? How do you make money? Give a quick overview. >> Yeah, I think John and I come at it from slightly different angles, but for myself, I have been a part of a number of technology companies. I joined Capital One, they acquired my last company and shortly after I joined, they asked me to start their AI team. And so even though I've been doing AI for a long time, I started my career back in DARPA. It was the first time I was really working at scale in AI at an organization where there were hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue at stake with the operation of these models and that they were impacting millions of people's financial livelihoods. And so it just got me hyper-focused on these issues around making sure that your AI worked well and it worked well for your company and it worked well for the people who were being affected by it. At the time when I was doing this 2016, 2017, 2018, there just wasn't any tooling out there to support this production management model monitoring life phase of the life cycle. And so we basically left to start the company that I wanted. And John has a his own story. I'll let let you share that one, John. >> Go ahead John, you're up. >> Yeah, so I'm coming at this from a different world. So I'm on leave now from a tenured role in academia where I was leading a large lab focusing on the intersection of machine learning and economics. And so questions like fairness or the response to the dynamism on the underlying environment have been around for quite a long time in that space. And so I've been thinking very deeply about some of those more like R and D style questions as well as having deployed some automation code across a couple of different industries, some in online advertising, some in the healthcare space and so on, where concerns of, again, fairness come to bear. And so Adam and I connected to understand the space of what that might look like in the 2018 20 19 realm from a quantitative and from a human-centered point of view. And so booted things up from there. >> Yeah, bring that applied engineering R and D into the Capital One, DNA that he had at scale. I could see that fit. I got to ask you now, next step, as you guys move out and think about LLMs and the recent AI news around the generative models and the foundational models like ChatGPT, how should we be looking at that news and everyone watching might be thinking the same thing. I know at the board level companies like, we should refactor our business, this is the future. It's that kind of moment, and the tech team's like, okay, boss, how do we do this again? Or are they prepared? How should we be thinking? How should people watching be thinking about LLMs? >> Yeah, I think they really are transformative. And so, I mean, we're seeing companies all over the place. Everything from large tech companies to a lot of our large enterprise customers are launching significant projects at core parts of their business. And so, yeah, I would be surprised, if you're serious about becoming an AI native company, which most leading companies are, then this is a trend that you need to be taking seriously. And we're seeing the adoption rate. It's funny, I would say the AI adoption in the broader business world really started, let's call it four or five years ago, and it was a relatively slow adoption rate, but I think all that kind of investment in and scaling the maturity curve has paid off because the rate at which people are adopting and deploying systems based on this is tremendous. I mean, this has all just happened in the few months and we're already seeing people get systems into production. So, now there's a lot of things you have to guarantee in order to put these in production in a way that basically is added into your business and doesn't cause more headaches than it solves. And so that's where we help customers is where how do you put these out there in a way that they're going to represent your company well, they're going to perform well, they're going to do their job and do it properly. >> So in the use case, as a customer, as I think about this, there's workflows. They might have had an ML AI ops team that's around IT. Their inference engines are out there. They probably don't have a visibility on say how much it costs, they're kicking the tires. When you look at the deployment, there's a cost piece, there's a workflow piece, there's fairness you mentioned John, what should be, I should be thinking about if I'm going to be deploying stuff into production, I got to think about those things. What's your opinion? >> Yeah, I'm happy to dive in on that one. So monitoring in general is extremely important once you have one of these LLMs in production, and there have been some changes versus traditional monitoring that we can dive deeper into that LLMs are really accelerated. But a lot of that bread and butter style of things you should be looking out for remain just as important as they are for what you might call traditional machine learning models. So the underlying environment of data streams, the way users interact with these models, these are all changing over time. And so any performance metrics that you care about, traditional ones like an accuracy, if you can define that for an LLM, ones around, for example, fairness or bias. If that is a concern for your particular use case and so on. Those need to be tracked. Now there are some interesting changes that LLMs are bringing along as well. So most ML models in production that we see are relatively static in the sense that they're not getting flipped in more than maybe once a day or once a week or they're just set once and then not changed ever again. With LLMs, there's this ongoing value alignment or collection of preferences from users that is often constantly updating the model. And so that opens up all sorts of vectors for, I won't say attack, but for problems to arise in production. Like users might learn to use your system in a different way and thus change the way those preferences are getting collected and thus change your system in ways that you never intended. So maybe that went through governance already internally at the company and now it's totally, totally changed and it's through no fault of your own, but you need to be watching over that for sure. >> Talk about the reinforced learnings from human feedback. How's that factoring in to the LLMs? Is that part of it? Should people be thinking about that? Is that a component that's important? >> It certainly is, yeah. So this is one of the big tweaks that happened with InstructGPT, which is the basis model behind ChatGPT and has since gone on to be used all over the place. So value alignment I think is through RLHF like you mentioned is a very interesting space to get into and it's one that you need to watch over. Like, you're asking humans for feedback over outputs from a model and then you're updating the model with respect to that human feedback. And now you've thrown humans into the loop here in a way that is just going to complicate things. And it certainly helps in many ways. You can ask humans to, let's say that you're deploying an internal chat bot at an enterprise, you could ask humans to align that LLM behind the chatbot to, say company values. And so you're listening feedback about these company values and that's going to scoot that chatbot that you're running internally more toward the kind of language that you'd like to use internally on like a Slack channel or something like that. Watching over that model I think in that specific case, that's a compliance and HR issue as well. So while it is part of the greater LLM stack, you can also view that as an independent bit to watch over. >> Got it, and these are important factors. When people see the Bing news, they freak out how it's doing great. Then it goes off the rails, it goes big, fails big. (laughing) So these models people see that, is that human interaction or is that feedback, is that not accepting it or how do people understand how to take that input in and how to build the right apps around LLMs? This is a tough question. >> Yeah, for sure. So some of the examples that you'll see online where these chatbots go off the rails are obviously humans trying to break the system, but some of them clearly aren't. And that's because these are large statistical models and we don't know what's going to pop out of them all the time. And even if you're doing as much in-house testing at the big companies like the Go-HERE's and the OpenAI's of the world, to try to prevent things like toxicity or racism or other sorts of bad content that might lead to bad pr, you're never going to catch all of these possible holes in the model itself. And so, again, it's very, very important to keep watching over that while it's in production. >> On the business model side, how are you guys doing? What's the approach? How do you guys engage with customers? Take a minute to explain the customer engagement. What do they need? What do you need? How's that work? >> Yeah, I can talk a little bit about that. So it's really easy to get started. It's literally a matter of like just handing out an API key and people can get started. And so we also offer alternative, we also offer versions that can be installed on-prem for models that, we find a lot of our customers have models that deal with very sensitive data. So you can run it in your cloud account or use our cloud version. And so yeah, it's pretty easy to get started with this stuff. We find people start using it a lot of times during the validation phase 'cause that way they can start baselining performance models, they can do champion challenger, they can really kind of baseline the performance of, maybe they're considering different foundation models. And so it's a really helpful tool for understanding differences in the way these models perform. And then from there they can just flow that into their production inferencing, so that as these systems are out there, you have really kind of real time monitoring for anomalies and for all sorts of weird behaviors as well as that continuous feedback loop that helps you make make your product get better and observability and you can run all sorts of aggregated reports to really understand what's going on with these models when they're out there deciding. I should also add that we just today have another way to adopt Arthur and that is we are in the AWS marketplace, and so we are available there just to make it that much easier to use your cloud credits, skip the procurement process, and get up and running really quickly. >> And that's great 'cause Amazon's got SageMaker, which handles a lot of privacy stuff, all kinds of cool things, or you can get down and dirty. So I got to ask on the next one, production is a big deal, getting stuff into production. What have you guys learned that you could share to folks watching? Is there a cost issue? I got to monitor, obviously you brought that up, we talked about the even reinforcement issues, all these things are happening. What is the big learnings that you could share for people that are going to put these into production to watch out for, to plan for, or be prepared for, hope for the best plan for the worst? What's your advice? >> I can give a couple opinions there and I'm sure Adam has. Well, yeah, the big one from my side is, again, I had mentioned this earlier, it's just the input data streams because humans are also exploring how they can use these systems to begin with. It's really, really hard to predict the type of inputs you're going to be seeing in production. Especially, we always talk about chatbots, but then any generative text tasks like this, let's say you're taking in news articles and summarizing them or something like that, it's very hard to get a good sampling even of the set of news articles in such a way that you can really predict what's going to pop out of that model. So to me, it's, adversarial maybe isn't the word that I would use, but it's an unnatural shifting input distribution of like prompts that you might see for these models. That's certainly one. And then the second one that I would talk about is, it can be hard to understand the costs, the inference time costs behind these LLMs. So the pricing on these is always changing as the models change size, it might go up, it might go down based on model size, based on energy cost and so on, but your pricing per token or per a thousand tokens and that I think can be difficult for some clients to wrap their head around. Again, you don't know how these systems are going to be used after all so it can be tough. And so again that's another metric that really should be tracked. >> Yeah, and there's a lot of trade off choices in there with like, how many tokens do you want at each step and in the sequence and based on, you have (indistinct) and you reject these tokens and so based on how your system's operating, that can make the cost highly variable. And that's if you're using like an API version that you're paying per token. A lot of people also choose to run these internally and as John mentioned, the inference time on these is significantly higher than a traditional classifi, even NLP classification model or tabular data model, like orders of magnitude higher. And so you really need to understand how that, as you're constantly iterating on these models and putting out new versions and new features in these models, how that's affecting the overall scale of that inference cost because you can use a lot of computing power very quickly with these profits. >> Yeah, scale, performance, price all come together. I got to ask while we're here on the secret sauce of the company, if you had to describe to people out there watching, what's the secret sauce of the company? What's the key to your success? >> Yeah, so John leads our research team and they've had a number of really cool, I think AI as much as it's been hyped for a while, it's still commercial AI at least is really in its infancy. And so the way we're able to pioneer new ways to think about performance for computer vision NLP LLMs is probably the thing that I'm proudest about. John and his team publish papers all the time at Navs and other places. But I think it's really being able to define what performance means for basically any kind of model type and give people really powerful tools to understand that on an ongoing basis. >> John, secret sauce, how would you describe it? You got all the action happening all around you. >> Yeah, well I going to appreciate Adam talking me up like that. No, I. (all laughing) >> Furrier: Robs to you. >> I would also say a couple of other things here. So we have a very strong engineering team and so I think some early hires there really set the standard at a very high bar that we've maintained as we've grown. And I think that's really paid dividends as scalabilities become even more of a challenge in these spaces, right? And so that's not just scalability when it comes to LLMs, that's scalability when it comes to millions of inferences per day, that kind of thing as well in traditional ML models. And I think that's compared to potential competitors, that's really... Well, it's made us able to just operate more efficiently and pass that along to the client. >> Yeah, and I think the infancy comment is really important because it's the beginning. You really is a long journey ahead. A lot of change coming, like I said, it's a huge wave. So I'm sure you guys got a lot of plannings at the foundation even for your own company, so I appreciate the candid response there. Final question for you guys is, what should the top things be for a company in 2023? If I'm going to set the agenda and I'm a customer moving forward, putting the pedal to the metal, so to speak, what are the top things I should be prioritizing or I need to do to be successful with AI in 2023? >> Yeah, I think, so number one, as we talked about, we've been talking about this entire episode, the things are changing so quickly and the opportunities for business transformation and really disrupting different applications, different use cases, is almost, I don't think we've even fully comprehended how big it is. And so really digging in to your business and understanding where I can apply these new sets of foundation models is, that's a top priority. The interesting thing is I think there's another force at play, which is the macroeconomic conditions and a lot of places are, they're having to work harder to justify budgets. So in the past, couple years ago maybe, they had a blank check to spend on AI and AI development at a lot of large enterprises that was limited primarily by the amount of talent they could scoop up. Nowadays these expenditures are getting scrutinized more. And so one of the things that we really help our customers with is like really calculating the ROI on these things. And so if you have models out there performing and you have a new version that you can put out that lifts the performance by 3%, how many tens of millions of dollars does that mean in business benefit? Or if I want to go to get approval from the CFO to spend a few million dollars on this new project, how can I bake in from the beginning the tools to really show the ROI along the way? Because I think in these systems when done well for a software project, the ROI can be like pretty spectacular. Like we see over a hundred percent ROI in the first year on some of these projects. And so, I think in 2023, you just need to be able to show what you're getting for that spend. >> It's a needle moving moment. You see it all the time with some of these aha moments or like, whoa, blown away. John, I want to get your thoughts on this because one of the things that comes up a lot for companies that I talked to, that are on my second wave, I would say coming in, maybe not, maybe the front wave of adopters is talent and team building. You mentioned some of the hires you got were game changing for you guys and set the bar high. As you move the needle, new developers going to need to come in. What's your advice given that you've been a professor, you've seen students, I know a lot of computer science people want to shift, they might not be yet skilled in AI, but they're proficient in programming, is that's going to be another opportunity with open source when things are happening. How do you talk to that next level of talent that wants to come in to this market to supplement teams and be on teams, lead teams? Any advice you have for people who want to build their teams and people who are out there and want to be a coder in AI? >> Yeah, I've advice, and this actually works for what it would take to be a successful AI company in 2023 as well, which is, just don't be afraid to iterate really quickly with these tools. The space is still being explored on what they can be used for. A lot of the tasks that they're used for now right? like creating marketing content using a machine learning is not a new thing to do. It just works really well now. And so I'm excited to see what the next year brings in terms of folks from outside of core computer science who are, other engineers or physicists or chemists or whatever who are learning how to use these increasingly easy to use tools to leverage LLMs for tasks that I think none of us have really thought about before. So that's really, really exciting. And so toward that I would say iterate quickly. Build things on your own, build demos, show them the friends, host them online and you'll learn along the way and you'll have somebody to show for it. And also you'll help us explore that space. >> Guys, congratulations with Arthur. Great company, great picks and shovels opportunities out there for everybody. Iterate fast, get in quickly and don't be afraid to iterate. Great advice and thank you for coming on and being part of the AWS showcase, thanks. >> Yeah, thanks for having us on John. Always a pleasure. >> Yeah, great stuff. Adam Wenchel, John Dickerson with Arthur. Thanks for coming on theCUBE. I'm John Furrier, your host. Generative AI and AWS. Keep it right there for more action with theCUBE. Thanks for watching. (upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hello and welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. We've got a great conversation featuring Arthur AI. I'm your host. I'm excited to have Adam Wenchel who's the Co-Founder and CEO. Thanks for joining us today, appreciate it. >> Yeah, thanks for having me on, John, looking forward to the conversation. >> I got to say, it's been an exciting world in AI or artificial intelligence. Just an explosion of interest kind of in the mainstream with the language models, which people don't really get, but they're seeing the benefits of some of the hype around OpenAI. Which kind of wakes everyone up to, "Oh, I get it now." And then of course the pessimism comes in, all the skeptics are out there. But this breakthrough in generative AI field is just awesome, it's really a shift, it's a wave. We've been calling it probably the biggest inflection point, then the others combined of what this can do from a surge standpoint, applications. I mean, all aspects of what we used to know is the computing industry, software industry, hardware, is completely going to get turbo. So we're totally obviously bullish on this thing. So, this is really interesting. So my first question is, I got to ask you, what's you guys taking? 'Cause you've been doing this, you're in it, and now all of a sudden you're at the beach where the big waves are. What's the explosion of interest is there? What are you seeing right now? >> Yeah, I mean, it's amazing, so for starters, I've been in AI for over 20 years and just seeing this amount of excitement and the growth, and like you said, the inflection point we've hit in the last six months has just been amazing. And, you know, what we're seeing is like people are getting applications into production using LLMs. I mean, really all this excitement just started a few months ago, with ChatGPT and other breakthroughs and the amount of activity and the amount of new systems that we're seeing hitting production already so soon after that is just unlike anything we've ever seen. So it's pretty awesome. And, you know, these language models are just, they could be applied in so many different business contexts and that it's just the amount of value that's being created is again, like unprecedented compared to anything. >> Adam, you know, you've been in this for a while, so it's an interesting point you're bringing up, and this is a good point. I was talking with my friend John Markoff, former New York Times journalist and he was talking about, there's been a lot of work been done on ethics. So there's been, it's not like it's new. It's like been, there's a lot of stuff that's been baking over many, many years and, you know, decades. So now everyone wakes up in the season, so I think that is a key point I want to get into some of your observations. But before we get into it, I want you to explain for the folks watching, just so we can kind of get a definition on the record. What's an LLM, what's a foundational model and what's generative ai? Can you just quickly explain the three things there? >> Yeah, absolutely. So an LLM or a large language model, it's just a large, they would imply a large language model that's been trained on a huge amount of data typically pulled from the internet. And it's a general purpose language model that can be built on top for all sorts of different things, that includes traditional NLP tasks like document classification and sentiment understanding. But the thing that's gotten people really excited is it's used for generative tasks. So, you know, asking it to summarize documents or asking it to answer questions. And these aren't new techniques, they've been around for a while, but what's changed is just this new class of models that's based on new architectures. They're just so much more capable that they've gone from sort of science projects to something that's actually incredibly useful in the real world. And there's a number of companies that are making them accessible to everyone so that you can build on top of them. So that's the other big thing is, this kind of access to these models that can power generative tasks has been democratized in the last few months and it's just opening up all these new possibilities. And then the third one you mentioned foundation models is sort of a broader term for the category that includes LLMs, but it's not just language models that are included. So we've actually seen this for a while in the computer vision world. So people have been building on top of computer vision models, pre-trained computer vision models for a while for image classification, object detection, that's something we've had customers doing for three or four years already. And so, you know, like you said, there are antecedents to like, everything that's happened, it's not entirely new, but it does feel like a step change. >> Yeah, I did ask ChatGPT to give me a riveting introduction to you and it gave me an interesting read. If we have time, I'll read it. It's kind of, it's fun, you get a kick out of it. "Ladies and gentlemen, today we're a privileged "to have Adam Wenchel, Founder of Arthur who's going to talk "about the exciting world of artificial intelligence." And then it goes on with some really riveting sentences. So if we have time, I'll share that, it's kind of funny. It was good. >> Okay. >> So anyway, this is what people see and this is why I think it's exciting 'cause I think people are going to start refactoring what they do. And I've been saying this on theCUBE now for about a couple months is that, you know, there's a scene in "Moneyball" where Billy Beane sits down with the Red Sox owner and the Red Sox owner says, "If people aren't rebuilding their teams on your model, "they're going to be dinosaurs." And it reminds me of what's happening right now. And I think everyone that I talk to in the business sphere is looking at this and they're connecting the dots and just saying, if we don't rebuild our business with this new wave, they're going to be out of business because there's so much efficiency, there's so much automation, not like DevOps automation, but like the generative tasks that will free up the intellect of people. Like just the simple things like do an intro or do this for me, write some code, write a countermeasure to a hack. I mean, this is kind of what people are doing. And you mentioned computer vision, again, another huge field where 5G things are coming on, it's going to accelerate. What do you say to people when they kind of are leaning towards that, I need to rethink my business? >> Yeah, it's 100% accurate and what's been amazing to watch the last few months is the speed at which, and the urgency that companies like Microsoft and Google or others are actually racing to, to do that rethinking of their business. And you know, those teams, those companies which are large and haven't always been the fastest moving companies are working around the clock. And the pace at which they're rolling out LLMs across their suite of products is just phenomenal to watch. And it's not just the big, the large tech companies as well, I mean, we're seeing the number of startups, like we get, every week a couple of new startups get in touch with us for help with their LLMs and you know, there's just a huge amount of venture capital flowing into it right now because everyone realizes the opportunities for transforming like legal and healthcare and content creation in all these different areas is just wide open. And so there's a massive gold rush going on right now, which is amazing. >> And the cloud scale, obviously horizontal scalability of the cloud brings us to another level. We've been seeing data infrastructure since the Hadoop days where big data was coined. Now you're seeing this kind of take fruit, now you have vertical specialization where data shines, large language models all of a set up perfectly for kind of this piece. And you know, as you mentioned, you've been doing it for a long time. Let's take a step back and I want to get into how you started the company, what drove you to start it? Because you know, as an entrepreneur you're probably saw this opportunity before other people like, "Hey, this is finally it, it's here." Can you share the origination story of what you guys came up with, how you started it, what was the motivation and take us through that origination story. >> Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned, I've been doing AI for many years. I started my career at DARPA, but it wasn't really until 2015, 2016, my previous company was acquired by Capital One. Then I started working there and shortly after I joined, I was asked to start their AI team and scale it up. And for the first time I was actually doing it, had production models that we were working with, that was at scale, right? And so there was hundreds of millions of dollars of business revenue and certainly a big group of customers who were impacted by the way these models acted. And so it got me hyper-aware of these issues of when you get models into production, it, you know. So I think people who are earlier in the AI maturity look at that as a finish line, but it's really just the beginning and there's this constant drive to make them better, make sure they're not degrading, make sure you can explain what they're doing, if they're impacting people, making sure they're not biased. And so at that time, there really weren't any tools to exist to do this, there wasn't open source, there wasn't anything. And so after a few years there, I really started talking to other people in the industry and there was a really clear theme that this needed to be addressed. And so, I joined with my Co-Founder John Dickerson, who was on the faculty in University of Maryland and he'd been doing a lot of research in these areas. And so we ended up joining up together and starting Arthur. >> Awesome. Well, let's get into what you guys do. Can you explain the value proposition? What are people using you for now? Where's the action? What's the customers look like? What do prospects look like? Obviously you mentioned production, this has been the theme. It's not like people woke up one day and said, "Hey, I'm going to put stuff into production." This has kind of been happening. There's been companies that have been doing this at scale and then yet there's a whole follower model coming on mainstream enterprise and businesses. So there's kind of the early adopters are there now in production. What do you guys do? I mean, 'cause I think about just driving the car off the lot is not, you got to manage operations. I mean, that's a big thing. So what do you guys do? Talk about the value proposition and how you guys make money? >> Yeah, so what we do is, listen, when you go to validate ahead of deploying these models in production, starts at that point, right? So you want to make sure that if you're going to be upgrading a model, if you're going to replacing one that's currently in production, that you've proven that it's going to perform well, that it's going to be perform ethically and that you can explain what it's doing. And then when you launch it into production, traditionally data scientists would spend 25, 30% of their time just manually checking in on their model day-to-day babysitting as we call it, just to make sure that the data hasn't drifted, the model performance hasn't degraded, that a programmer did make a change in an upstream data system. You know, there's all sorts of reasons why the world changes and that can have a real adverse effect on these models. And so what we do is bring the same kind of automation that you have for other kinds of, let's say infrastructure monitoring, application monitoring, we bring that to your AI systems. And that way if there ever is an issue, it's not like weeks or months till you find it and you find it before it has an effect on your P&L and your balance sheet, which is too often before they had tools like Arthur, that was the way they were detected. >> You know, I was talking to Swami at Amazon who I've known for a long time for 13 years and been on theCUBE multiple times and you know, I watched Amazon try to pick up that sting with stage maker about six years ago and so much has happened since then. And he and I were talking about this wave, and I kind of brought up this analogy to how when cloud started, it was, Hey, I don't need a data center. 'Cause when I did my startup that time when Amazon, one of my startups at that time, my choice was put a box in the colo, get all the configuration before I could write over the line of code. So the cloud became the benefit for that and you can stand up stuff quickly and then it grew from there. Here it's kind of the same dynamic, you don't want to have to provision a large language model or do all this heavy lifting. So that seeing companies coming out there saying, you can get started faster, there's like a new way to get it going. So it's kind of like the same vibe of limiting that heavy lifting. >> Absolutely. >> How do you look at that because this seems to be a wave that's going to be coming in and how do you guys help companies who are going to move quickly and start developing? >> Yeah, so I think in the race to this kind of gold rush mentality, race to get these models into production, there's starting to see more sort of examples and evidence that there are a lot of risks that go along with it. Either your model says things, your system says things that are just wrong, you know, whether it's hallucination or just making things up, there's lots of examples. If you go on Twitter and the news, you can read about those, as well as sort of times when there could be toxic content coming out of things like that. And so there's a lot of risks there that you need to think about and be thoughtful about when you're deploying these systems. But you know, you need to balance that with the business imperative of getting these things into production and really transforming your business. And so that's where we help people, we say go ahead, put them in production, but just make sure you have the right guardrails in place so that you can do it in a smart way that's going to reflect well on you and your company. >> Let's frame the challenge for the companies now that you have, obviously there's the people who doing large scale production and then you have companies maybe like as small as us who have large linguistic databases or transcripts for example, right? So what are customers doing and why are they deploying AI right now? And is it a speed game, is it a cost game? Why have some companies been able to deploy AI at such faster rates than others? And what's a best practice to onboard new customers? >> Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, we're seeing across a bunch of different verticals, there are leaders who have really kind of started to solve this puzzle about getting AI models into production quickly and being able to iterate on them quickly. And I think those are the ones that realize that imperative that you mentioned earlier about how transformational this technology is. And you know, a lot of times, even like the CEOs or the boards are very personally kind of driving this sense of urgency around it. And so, you know, that creates a lot of movement, right? And so those companies have put in place really smart infrastructure and rails so that people can, data scientists aren't encumbered by having to like hunt down data, get access to it. They're not encumbered by having to stand up new platforms every time they want to deploy an AI system, but that stuff is already in place. There's a really nice ecosystem of products out there, including Arthur, that you can tap into. Compared to five or six years ago when I was building at a top 10 US bank, at that point you really had to build almost everything yourself and that's not the case now. And so it's really nice to have things like, you know, you mentioned AWS SageMaker and a whole host of other tools that can really accelerate things. >> What's your profile customer? Is it someone who already has a team or can people who are learning just dial into the service? What's the persona? What's the pitch, if you will, how do you align with that customer value proposition? Do people have to be built out with a team and in play or is it pre-production or can you start with people who are just getting going? >> Yeah, people do start using it pre-production for validation, but I think a lot of our customers do have a team going and they're starting to put, either close to putting something into production or about to, it's everything from large enterprises that have really sort of complicated, they have dozens of models running all over doing all sorts of use cases to tech startups that are very focused on a single problem, but that's like the lifeblood of the company and so they need to guarantee that it works well. And you know, we make it really easy to get started, especially if you're using one of the common model development platforms, you can just kind of turn key, get going and make sure that you have a nice feedback loop. So then when your models are out there, it's pointing out, areas where it's performing well, areas where it's performing less well, giving you that feedback so that you can make improvements, whether it's in training data or futurization work or algorithm selection. There's a number of, you know, depending on the symptoms, there's a number of things you can do to increase performance over time and we help guide people on that journey. >> So Adam, I have to ask, since you have such a great customer base and they're smart and they got teams and you're on the front end, I mean, early adopters is kind of an overused word, but they're killing it. They're putting stuff in the production's, not like it's a test, it's not like it's early. So as the next wave comes of fast followers, how do you see that coming online? What's your vision for that? How do you see companies that are like just waking up out of the frozen, you know, freeze of like old IT to like, okay, they got cloud, but they're not yet there. What do you see in the market? I see you're in the front end now with the top people really nailing AI and working hard. What's the- >> Yeah, I think a lot of these tools are becoming, or every year they get easier, more accessible, easier to use. And so, you know, even for that kind of like, as the market broadens, it takes less and less of a lift to put these systems in place. And the thing is, every business is unique, they have their own kind of data and so you can use these foundation models which have just been trained on generic data. They're a great starting point, a great accelerant, but then, in most cases you're either going to want to create a model or fine tune a model using data that's really kind of comes from your particular customers, the people you serve and so that it really reflects that and takes that into account. And so I do think that these, like the size of that market is expanding and its broadening as these tools just become easier to use and also the knowledge about how to build these systems becomes more widespread. >> Talk about your customer base you have now, what's the makeup, what size are they? Give a taste a little bit of a customer base you got there, what's they look like? I'll say Capital One, we know very well while you were at there, they were large scale, lot of data from fraud detection to all kinds of cool stuff. What do your customers now look like? >> Yeah, so we have a variety, but I would say one area we're really strong, we have several of the top 10 US banks, that's not surprising, that's a strength for us, but we also have Fortune 100 customers in healthcare, in manufacturing, in retail, in semiconductor and electronics. So what we find is like in any sort of these major verticals, there's typically, you know, one, two, three kind of companies that are really leading the charge and are the ones that, you know, in our opinion, those are the ones that for the next multiple decades are going to be the leaders, the ones that really kind of lead the charge on this AI transformation. And so we're very fortunate to be working with some of those. And then we have a number of startups as well who we love working with just because they're really pushing the boundaries technologically and so they provide great feedback and make sure that we're continuing to innovate and staying abreast of everything that's going on. >> You know, these early markups, even when the hyperscalers were coming online, they had to build everything themselves. That's the new, they're like the alphas out there building it. This is going to be a big wave again as that fast follower comes in. And so when you look at the scale, what advice would you give folks out there right now who want to tee it up and what's your secret sauce that will help them get there? >> Yeah, I think that the secret to teeing it up is just dive in and start like the, I think these are, there's not really a secret. I think it's amazing how accessible these are. I mean, there's all sorts of ways to access LLMs either via either API access or downloadable in some cases. And so, you know, go ahead and get started. And then our secret sauce really is the way that we provide that performance analysis of what's going on, right? So we can tell you in a very actionable way, like, hey, here's where your model is doing good things, here's where it's doing bad things. Here's something you want to take a look at, here's some potential remedies for it. We can help guide you through that. And that way when you're putting it out there, A, you're avoiding a lot of the common pitfalls that people see and B, you're able to really kind of make it better in a much faster way with that tight feedback loop. >> It's interesting, we've been kind of riffing on this supercloud idea because it was just different name than multicloud and you see apps like Snowflake built on top of AWS without even spending any CapEx, you just ride that cloud wave. This next AI, super AI wave is coming. I don't want to call AIOps because I think there's a different distinction. If you, MLOps and AIOps seem a little bit old, almost a few years back, how do you view that because everyone's is like, "Is this AIOps?" And like, "No, not kind of, but not really." How would you, you know, when someone says, just shoots off the hip, "Hey Adam, aren't you doing AIOps?" Do you say, yes we are, do you say, yes, but we do differently because it's doesn't seem like it's the same old AIOps. What's your- >> Yeah, it's a good question. AIOps has been a term that was co-opted for other things and MLOps also has people have used it for different meanings. So I like the term just AI infrastructure, I think it kind of like describes it really well and succinctly. >> But you guys are doing the ops. I mean that's the kind of ironic thing, it's like the next level, it's like NextGen ops, but it's not, you don't want to be put in that bucket. >> Yeah, no, it's very operationally focused platform that we have, I mean, it fires alerts, people can action off them. If you're familiar with like the way people run security operations centers or network operations centers, we do that for data science, right? So think of it as a DSOC, a Data Science Operations Center where all your models, you might have hundreds of models running across your organization, you may have five, but as problems are detected, alerts can be fired and you can actually work the case, make sure they're resolved, escalate them as necessary. And so there is a very strong operational aspect to it, you're right. >> You know, one of the things I think is interesting is, is that, if you don't mind commenting on it, is that the aspect of scale is huge and it feels like that was made up and now you have scale and production. What's your reaction to that when people say, how does scale impact this? >> Yeah, scale is huge for some of, you know, I think, I think look, the highest leverage business areas to apply these to, are generally going to be the ones at the biggest scale, right? And I think that's one of the advantages we have. Several of us come from enterprise backgrounds and we're used to doing things enterprise grade at scale and so, you know, we're seeing more and more companies, I think they started out deploying AI and sort of, you know, important but not necessarily like the crown jewel area of their business, but now they're deploying AI right in the heart of things and yeah, the scale that some of our companies are operating at is pretty impressive. >> John: Well, super exciting, great to have you on and congratulations. I got a final question for you, just random. What are you most excited about right now? Because I mean, you got to be pretty pumped right now with the way the world is going and again, I think this is just the beginning. What's your personal view? How do you feel right now? >> Yeah, the thing I'm really excited about for the next couple years now, you touched on it a little bit earlier, but is a sort of convergence of AI and AI systems with sort of turning into AI native businesses. And so, as you sort of do more, get good further along this transformation curve with AI, it turns out that like the better the performance of your AI systems, the better the performance of your business. Because these models are really starting to underpin all these key areas that cumulatively drive your P&L. And so one of the things that we work a lot with our customers is to do is just understand, you know, take these really esoteric data science notions and performance and tie them to all their business KPIs so that way you really are, it's kind of like the operating system for running your AI native business. And we're starting to see more and more companies get farther along that maturity curve and starting to think that way, which is really exciting. >> I love the AI native. I haven't heard any startup yet say AI first, although we kind of use the term, but I guarantee that's going to come in all the pitch decks, we're an AI first company, it's going to be great run. Adam, congratulations on your success to you and the team. Hey, if we do a few more interviews, we'll get the linguistics down. We can have bots just interact with you directly and ask you, have an interview directly. >> That sounds good, I'm going to go hang out on the beach, right? So, sounds good. >> Thanks for coming on, really appreciate the conversation. Super exciting, really important area and you guys doing great work. Thanks for coming on. >> Adam: Yeah, thanks John. >> Again, this is Cube Conversation. I'm John Furrier here in Palo Alto, AI going next gen. This is legit, this is going to a whole nother level that's going to open up huge opportunities for startups, that's going to use opportunities for investors and the value to the users and the experience will come in, in ways I think no one will ever see. So keep an eye out for more coverage on siliconangle.com and theCUBE.net, thanks for watching. (bright upbeat music)

>> Narrator: TheCUBE's live coverage is made possible by funding from Dell Technologies. Creating technologies that drive human progress. >> All right, welcome back to the Fira in Barcelona. This is Dave Vellante with Dave Nicholson. Day 4 of coverage MWC 23. We've been talking all week about the disaggregation of the telco networks, how telcos need to increase revenue how they're not going to let the over the top providers do it again. They want to charge Netflix, right? And Netflix is punching back. There maybe are better ways to do revenue acceleration. We're going to talk to that topic with Dave Trigg who's the Global Vice President of Telecom systems business at Dell Technologies. And Ken Burns, who's a global telecom partner, sales lead. Guys, good to see you. >> Good to see you. Great to be here. >> Dave, you heard my, you're welcome. You heard my intro. It's got to be better ways to, for the telcos to make money. How can they accelerate revenue beyond taxing Netflix? >> Yeah, well, well first of all, sort of the promise of 5G, and a lot of people talk about 5G as the enterprise G. Right? So the promise of 5G is to really help drive revenue enterprise use cases. And so, it's sort of the promise of the next generation of technology, but it's not easy to figure out how we monetize that. And so we think Dell has a pretty significant role to play. It's a CEO conversation for every telco and how they accelerate. And so it's an area we're investing heavily into three different areas for telcos. One is the IT space. Dell's done that forever. 90% of the companies leaning in on that. The other places network, network's more about cost takeout. And the third area where we're investing in is working with what we call their line of businesses, but it's really their business units, right? How can we sit down with them and really understand what services do they take to market? Where do they go? So, we're making significant investments. So one way they can do it is working with Dell and and we're making big investments 'cause in most Geos we have a fairly significant sales force. We've brought in an industry leader to help us put it together. And we're getting very focused on this space and, you know, looking forward to talking more about it. >> So Ken, you know, the space inside and out, we just had at AT&T on... >> Dave Trigg: Yep. >> And they were saying we have to be hypersensitive because of our platinum brand to the use of personal information. >> Ken: Yeah. >> So we're not going to go there yet. We're not going to go directly monetize, but yet I'm thinking well, Netflix knows what I'm watching and they're making recommendations and they're, and and that's how they make money. And so the, the telcos are, are shy about doing that for right reasons, but they want to make better offers. They want to put, put forth better bundles. You know, they don't, they don't want to spend all their time trying to figure that out and not being able to change when they need to change. So, so what is the answer? If they're not going to go toward that direct monetization of data? >> Ken: Yeah. >> How do they get there? >> So I, I joined Dell in- at the end of June and brought on, as David said, to, to build and lead this what we call the line of business strategy, right? And ultimately what it is is tying together Dell technology solutions and the best of breed of what the telecoms bring to bear to solve the business outcomes of our joint customers. And there's a few jewels inside of Dell. One of it is that we have 35,000 sellers out there all touching enterprise business customers. And we have a really good understanding of what those customer needs are and you know what their outcomes needs to be. The other jewel is we have a really good understanding of how to solve those business outcomes. Dell is an open company. We work with thousands of integrators, and we have a really good insight in terms of how to solve those business outcomes, right? And so in my conversations with the telecom companies when you talk about, you know combining the best assets of Dell with their capabilities and we're all talking to the same customers, right? And if we're giving them the same story on these solutions solving business outcomes it's a beautiful thing. It's a time to market. >> What's an example of a, of a, of a situation where you'll partner with telcos that's going to drive revenue for, for both of you and value for the customer? >> Yeah, great question. So we've been laser focused on four key areas, cyber, well, let me start off with connected laptops, cyber, private mobility, and edge. Right? Now, the last two are a little bit squishy, but I'll I'll get to that in a bit, right? Because ultimately I feel like with this 5G market, we could actually make the market. And the way that we've been positioning this is almost, almost on a journey for IOT. When we talk about laptops, right? Dell is the, is the number one company in the world to sell business laptops. Well, if we start selling connected laptops the telcos are starting to say, well, you know what? If all of those laptops get connected to my network, that's a ton of 5G activations, right? We have the used cases on why having a connected workforce makes sense, right? So we're sharing that with the telcos to not simply sell a laptop, but to sell the company on why it makes sense to have that connected workforce. >> Dave Vellante: Why does it make sense? It could change the end customer. >> Ken: Yeah. So, you know, I'm probably not the best to answer that one right? But, but ultimately, you know Dell is selling millions and millions of laptops out there. And, and again, the Verizon's, the AT&T's, the T-mobile's, they're seeing the opportunity that, you know, connecting those laptops, give those the 5G activations right? But Dave, you know, the way that we've been positioning this is it's not simply a laptop could be really a Trojan horse into this IOT journey. Because ultimately, if you sell a thousand laptops to an enterprise company and you're connecting a thousand of their employees, you're connecting people, right? And we can give the analytics around that, what they're using it for, you know, making sure that the security, the bios, all of that is up to date. So now that you're connecting their people you could open up the conversation to why don't we we connect your place and, you know, allowing the telecom companies to come in and educate customers and the Dell sales force on why a private 5G mobility network makes sense to connecting places. That's a great opportunity. When you connect the place, the next part of that journey is connecting things in that place. Robotics, sensors, et cetera, right? And, and so really, so we're on the journey of people, places, things. >> So they got the cyber angle angle in there, Dave. That, that's clear benefit. If you, you know, if you got all these bespoke laptops and they're all at different levels you're going to get, you know, you're going to get hacked anyway. >> Ken: That's right. >> You're going to get hacked worse. >> Yeah. I'm curious, as you go to market, do you see significant differences? You don't have to name any names, but I imagine that there are behemoths that could be laggards because essentially they feel like they're the toll booth and all they have to do is collect, keep collecting the tolls. Whereas some of the smaller, more nimble, more agile entities that you might deal with might be more receptive to this message. That seems to be the sort of way the circle of life are. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing the big ones? Are you seeing the, you know, the aircraft carriers realizing that we got to turn into the wind guys and if we don't start turning into the wind now we're going to be in trouble. >> So this conference has been absolutely fantastic allowing us to speak with, you know, probably 30 plus telecom operators around this strategy, right? And all of the big guys, they've invested hundreds of billions of dollars in their 5G network and they haven't really seen the ROI. So when we're coming into them with a story about how Dell can help monetize their 5G network I got to tell you they're pretty excited >> Dave Nicholson: So they're receptive? >> Oh my God. They are very receptive >> So that's the big question, right? I mean is, who's, is anybody ever going to make any money off of 5G? And Ken, you were saying that private mobility and edge are a little fuzzy but I think from a strategy standpoint I mean that is a potential gold mine. >> Yeah, but it, for, for lot of the telcos and most telcos it's a pretty significant shift in mentality, right? Cause they are used to selling sim cards to some degree and how many sim cards are they selling and how many, what other used cases? And really to get to the point where they understand the use case, 'cause to get into the enterprise to really get into what can they do to help power a enterprise business more wholly. They've got to understand the use case. They got to understand the more complete solution. You know, Dell's been doing that for years. And that's where we can bring our Salesforce, our capabilities, our understanding of the customer. 'cause even your original question around AT&T and trying to understand the data, that's just really a how do you get better understanding of your customer, right? >> Right. Absolutely. >> And, and combined we're better together 'cause we bring a more complete picture of understanding our customers and then how can we help them understand what the edge is. Cause nobody's ever bought an Edge, right? They're buying an Edge to get a business outcome. You know, back in the day, nobody ever bought a data lake, right? Like, you know, they're buying an outcome. They want to use, use that data lake or they want to use the edge to deliver something. They want to use 5G. And 5G has very real capabilities. It's got intrinsic security, which, you know a lot of the wifi doesn't. It's got guaranteed on time, you know, for areas where you can't lose connectivity: autonomous vehicles, et cetera. So it's got very real capabilities that helps deliver that outcome. But you got to be able to translate that into the en- enterprise language to help them solve a problem. And that's where we think we need the help of the telcos. I think the telcos we can help them as well and, and really go drive that outcome. >> So Dell's bringing its go to market expertise and its technology. The telcos obviously have the the connectivity piece and what they do. There's no overlap in terms of the... >> Yeah. >> The, the equipment and the software that you're selling. I mean, they're going to, they're going to take your equipment and create new networks. Beautiful. And, and it's interesting you, like, you think about how Dell has transformed prior to EMC, Dell was, you know, PC maker with a subpar enterprise business, right? Kind of a wannabe enterprise business. Sorry Dell, it's the truth. And then EMC was largely, you know, a company sold storage boxes, but you owned VMware and then brought those two together. Now all of a sudden you had Dell powerhouse leader and Michael Dell, you had VMware incredibly strategic and important and it got EMC with amazing go to market. All of a sudden this Dell, Dell technologies became incredibly attractive to CIOs, C-level executives, board level. And you've come out of that transition VMware's now a separate company, right? And now, but now you have these relationships and you got the shops to be able to go into these edge locations at companies And actually go partner with the telcos. And you got a very compelling value proposition. >> Well, it's been interesting as in, in this show, again most telcos think of Dell as a server provider, you know? Important, but not overly strategic in their journey. But as we've started to invest in this business we've started to invest in things like automation. We've brought together things in our Infra Blocks and then we help them develop revenue. We're not only helping 'em take costs out of their network we're not helping 'em take risk out of deploying that network. We're helping them accelerate the deployment of that network. And then we're helping 'em drive revenue. We are having, you know, they're starting to see us in a new light. Not done yet, but, you know, you can start to see, one, how they're looking at Dell and two, and then how we can go to market. And you know, a big part of that is helping 'em drive and generate revenue. >> Yeah. Well, as, as a, as a former EMC person myself, >> Yeah? >> I will assert that that strategic DNA was injected into Dell by the acquisition of, of EMC. And I'm sticking... >> I won't say that. Okay I'll believe you on that. >> I'm sticking with the story. And it makes sense when you think about moving up market, that's the natural thing. What's, what's what's nearly impossible is to say, we sell semi-trucks but we want to get into the personal pickup truck market. That's that, that doesn't work. Going the other way works. >> Dave Trigg: Yeah. >> Now, now back to the conversation that you had with, with, with AT&T. I'm not buying this whole, no offense to AT&T, but I'm not buying this whole story that, you know, oh we're concerned about our branded customer data. That sounds like someone who's a little bit too comfortable with their existing revenue stream. If I'm out there, I want to be out partnering with folks who are truly aggressive about, about coming up with the next cool thing. You guys are talking about being connected in a laptop. Someone would say, well I got wifi. No, no, no. I'm thinking I want to sim in my laptop cause I don't want to screw around with wifi. Okay, fine. If I know I'm going to be somewhere with excellent wifi connectivity, great. But most of the time it's not excellent. >> That's right. >> So the idea that I could maybe hit F2 and have it switch over to my sim and know that anywhere that I've got coverage, I have high speed connections. Just the convenience of that. >> Ken: Absolutely. >> I'd pay extra for that as an end user consumer. >> Absolutely. >> And I pay for the service. >> Like I tell you, if it interests AT&T I think it's more not, they ask, they're comfortable. They don't know how to monetize that data. Now, of course, AT&T has a media >> Dave Nicholson: Business necessity is the mother of invention. If they don't see the necessity then they're not going to think about it. >> It's a mentality shift. Yes, but, but when you start talking about private mobility and edge, there's there's no concern about personal information there. You're going in with basically a business transformation. Hey, your, your business is, is not, not digital. It's not automated. Now we're going to automate that and digitize that. It's like the, the Dell booth with the beer guys. >> Right. >> You saw that, right? >> I mean that's, I mean that's a simple application. Yeah, a perfect example of how you network and use this technology. >> I mean, how many non-digital businesses are that that need to go digital? >> Dave Nicholson: Like, hundred percent of them. >> Everyone. >> Dave Nicholson: Pretty much. >> Yeah. And this, and this jewel that we have inside of Dell our global industries group, right, where we're investing really heavily in terms of what is the manufacturing industry looking for retail, finance, et cetera. So we have a CTO that came in, that it would be the CTO of manufacturing that gives us a really good opportunity to go to at AT&T or to Verizon or any telco out there, right? To, to say, these are the outcomes. There's Dell technology already in place. How do we connect it to your network? How do we leverage your assets, your manager professional services to provide a richer experience? So it's, there's, you said before Dave, there's really no overlap between Dell and, and our telecom partners. >> You guys making some serious investments here. I mean I, I've been, I was been critical over the years of, hey, you can't just take an X86 block, put a name on it that says edge something and throw it over the fence because that's what you were doing. >> Dave Trigg: And we would agree. >> Yeah. Right. But, of course, but that's all you had at the time. And so you put some... >> We may not have agreed then, but we would agree. >> You bought, brought some people in, you know, like Ken, who really know the business. You brought people into the technical side and you can really see it happening. It's not going to happen overnight. You know, I mean, you know if I were an investor in Dell, I'd be like, okay when are you going to start making money at this business? I'd be like, be patient. You know, it's going to take some time but look at the TAM. >> Yep. >> You know, you guys do a good, good TAM. Tennis is a pro at this stuff. >> We've been at, we've been at this two, three years and we're just now coming with some real material products. You've seen our server line really start to get more purpose-built, really start to get in there as we've started to put out some software that allows for quicker automation, quicker deployments. We have some telcos that are using it to deploy at 10,000 locations. They're literally turning up thousands of locations a week. And so yeah, we're starting to put out some real capability. Got a long way to go. A lot of exciting things on the roadmap. But to your point, it doesn't, you know the ship doesn't turn overnight, you know. >> It could be a really meaningful portion of Dell's business. I'm, I'm excited for the day that Tom Sweet starts reporting on it. Here's our telco business. Yeah. The telco business. But that's not going to happen overnight. But you know, Dell's pretty good at things like ROI. And so you guys do a lot of planning a lot of TAM analysis, a lot of technical analysis, bringing the ecosystem together. That's what this business needs. I, I just don't, it's, it feels unstoppable. You know, you're at this show everybody recognizes the need to open up. Some telcos are moving faster than others. The ones that move faster are going to disrupt. They're going to probably make some mistakes, you know but they're going to get there first. >> Well we've, we've seen the disruptors are making some mistakes and are kind of re- they're already at the phase where they're reevaluating, you know, their approach. Which is great. You know, you, you learn and adjust. You know, you run into a wall, you, you make a turn. And the interesting thing, one of the biggest learnings I've taken out of the show is talking to a bunch of the telcos that are a little bit more of the laggards. They're like, Nope, we, we don't believe in open. We don't think we can do it. We don't have the skillset. They're maybe in a geo that it's hard to find the skillset. As they've been talking to us, and we've been talking about, there's almost a glimmer of hope. They're not convinced yet, but they're like, well wait, maybe we can do this. Maybe open, you know, does give us choice. Maybe it can help us accelerate revenue. So it's been interesting to see a little bit of the, just a little bit, but a little bit of that shift. >> We all remember at 2010, 2011, you talked to banks and financial services companies about, the heck, the Cloud is happening, the Cloud's going to take over the world. We're never going to go into the Cloud. Now they're the biggest, you know Capital One's launching Cloud businesses, Western Union, I mean, they're all in the cloud, right? I mean, it's the same thing's going to happen here. Might, it might take a different pattern. Maybe it takes a little longer, but it's, it's it's a fate are completely >> I was in high school then, so I don't remember all that. >> Sorry, Dave. >> Wow, that was a low blow, like you know? >> But, but the, but the one thing that is for sure there's money to be made convincing people to get off of the backs of the dinosaurs they're riding. >> Dave Vellante: That's right. >> And also, the other thing that's a certainty is that it's not easy. And because it's not easy, there's opportunity there. So I know, I know it's, it, it, it, it, it all sounds great to talk about the the wonderful vision of the future, but I know how hard the the road is that you have to go down to get people, especially if you're comfortable with the revenue stream, if you're comfortable running the plumbing. If you're so comfortable that you can get up on stage and say, I want more money from you to pump your con- your content across my network. I love the Netflix retort, right Dave? >> Yeah, totally Dave. And, but the, the other thing is, telco's a great business. It's, they got monopolies that print money. So... >> Dave Nicholson: It's rational. It's rational. I understand. >> There's less of an incentive to move but what's going to be the incentive is guys like Dish Network coming in saying, we're going to, we're going to disrupt, we're going to build new apps. >> That's right. >> Yeah. >> Well and it's, you know, revenue acceleration, the board level, the CEO level know that they have to, you know, do things different. But to your point, it's just hard, and there's so much gravity there. There's hundreds of years literally of gravity of how they've operated their business. To your point, a lot of them, you know, lot- most of 'em were regulated and most Geos around the world at one point, right? They were government owned or government regulated entities. It's, it's a big ship to turn and it's really hard. We're not claiming we can help them turn the ship overnight but we think we can help evolve them. We think we can go along with the journey and we do think we are better together. >> IT the network and the line of business. Love the strategy. Guys, thanks so much for coming in theCUBE. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> All right, for Dave, Nicholson, Dave Vellante here, John Furrier is in our Palo Alto studio banging out all the news, keep it right there. TheCUBE's coverage of MWC 23. We'll be right back.

Hello and welcome back to Supercloud 2 where we examine the intersection of cloud and data in the 2020s. My name is Dave Vellante. Our Supercloud panel, our power panel is back. Maribel Lopez is the founder and principal analyst at Lopez Research. Sanjeev Mohan is former Gartner analyst and principal at Sanjeev Mohan. And Keith Townsend is the CTO advisor. Folks, welcome back and thanks for your participation today. Good to see you. >> Okay, great. >> Great to see you. >> Thanks. Let me start, Maribel, with you. Bob Muglia, we had a conversation as part of Supercloud the other day. And he said, "Dave, I like the work, you got to simplify this a little bit." So he said, quote, "A Supercloud is a platform." He said, "Think of it as a platform that provides programmatically consistent services hosted on heterogeneous cloud providers." And then Nelu Mihai said, "Well, wait a minute. This is just going to create more stove pipes. We need more standards in an architecture," which is kind of what Berkeley Sky Computing initiative is all about. So there's a sort of a debate going on. Is supercloud an architecture, a platform? Or maybe it's just another buzzword. Maribel, do you have a thought on this? >> Well, the easy answer would be to say it's just a buzzword. And then we could just kill the conversation and be done with it. But I think the term, it's more than that, right? The term actually isn't new. You can go back to at least 2016 and find references to supercloud in Cornell University or assist in other documents. So, having said this, I think we've been talking about Supercloud for a while, so I assume it's more than just a fancy buzzword. But I think it really speaks to that undeniable trend of moving towards an abstraction layer to deal with the chaos of what we consider managing multiple public and private clouds today, right? So one definition of the technology platform speaks to a set of services that allows companies to build and run that technology smoothly without worrying about the underlying infrastructure, which really gets back to something that Bob said. And some of the question is where that lives. And you could call that an abstraction layer. You could call it cross-cloud services, hybrid cloud management. So I see momentum there, like legitimate momentum with enterprise IT buyers that are trying to deal with the fact that they have multiple clouds now. So where I think we're moving is trying to define what are the specific attributes and frameworks of that that would make it so that it could be consistent across clouds. What is that layer? And maybe that's what the supercloud is. But one of the things I struggle with with supercloud is. What are we really trying to do here? Are we trying to create differentiated services in the supercloud layer? Is a supercloud just another variant of what AWS, GCP, or others do? You spoken to Walmart about its cloud native platform, and that's an example of somebody deciding to do it themselves because they need to deal with this today and not wait for some big standards thing to happen. So whatever it is, I do think it's something. I think we're trying to maybe create an architecture out of it would be a better way of saying it so that it does get to those set of principles, but it also needs to be edge aware. I think whenever we talk about supercloud, we're always talking about like the big centralized cloud. And I think we need to think about all the distributed clouds that we're looking at in edge as well. So that might be one of the ways that supercloud evolves. >> So thank you, Maribel. Keith, Brian Gracely, Gracely's law, things kind of repeat themselves. We've seen it all before. And so what Muglia brought to the forefront is this idea of a platform where the platform provider is really responsible for the architecture. Of course, the drawback is then you get a a bunch of stove pipes architectures. But practically speaking, that's kind of the way the industry has always evolved, right? >> So if we look at this from the practitioner's perspective and we talk about platforms, traditionally vendors have provided the platforms for us, whether it's distribution of lineage managed by or provided by Red Hat, Windows, servers, .NET, databases, Oracle. We think of those as platforms, things that are fundamental we can build on top. Supercloud isn't today that. It is a framework or idea, kind of a visionary goal to get to a point that we can have a platform or a framework. But what we're seeing repeated throughout the industry in customers, whether it's the Walmarts that's kind of supersized the idea of supercloud, or if it's regular end user organizations that are coming out with platform groups, groups who normalize cloud native infrastructure, AWS multi-cloud, VMware resources to look like one thing internally to their developers. We're seeing this trend that there's a desire for a platform that provides the capabilities of a supercloud. >> Thank you for that. Sanjeev, we often use Snowflake as a supercloud example, and now would presumably would be a platform with an architecture that's determined by the vendor. Maybe Databricks is pushing for a more open architecture, maybe more of that nirvana that we were talking about before to solve for supercloud. But regardless, the practitioner discussions show. At least currently, there's not a lot of cross-cloud data sharing. I think it could be a killer use case, egress charges or a barrier. But how do you see it? Will that change? Will we hide that underlying complexity and start sharing data across cloud? Is that something that you think Snowflake or others will be able to achieve? >> So I think we are already starting to see some of that happen. Snowflake is definitely one example that gets cited a lot. But even we don't talk about MongoDB in this like, but you could have a MongoDB cluster, for instance, with nodes sitting in different cloud providers. So there are companies that are starting to do it. The advantage that these companies have, let's take Snowflake as an example, it's a centralized proprietary platform. And they are building the capabilities that are needed for supercloud. So they're building things like you can push down your data transformations. They have the entire security and privacy suite. Data ops, they're adding those capabilities. And if I'm not mistaken, it'll be very soon, we will see them offer data observability. So it's all works great as long as you are in one platform. And if you want resilience, then Snowflake, Supercloud, great example. But if your primary goal is to choose the most cost-effective service irrespective of which cloud it sits in, then things start falling sideways. For example, I may be a very big Snowflake user. And I like Snowflake's resilience. I can move from one cloud to another cloud. Snowflake does it for me. But what if I want to train a very large model? Maybe Databricks is a better platform for that. So how do I do move my workload from one platform to another platform? That tooling does not exist. So we need server hybrid, cross-cloud, data ops platform. Walmart has done a great job, but they built it by themselves. Not every company is Walmart. Like Maribel and Keith said, we need standards, we need reference architectures, we need some sort of a cost control. I was just reading recently, Accenture has been public about their AWS bill. Every time they get the bill is tens of millions of lines, tens of millions 'cause there are over thousand teams using AWS. If we have not been able to corral a usage of a single cloud, now we're talking about supercloud, we've got multiple clouds, and hybrid, on-prem, and edge. So till we've got some cross-platform tooling in place, I think this will still take quite some time for it to take shape. >> It's interesting. Maribel, Walmart would tell you that their on-prem infrastructure is cheaper to run than the stuff in the cloud. but at the same time, they want the flexibility and the resiliency of their three-legged stool model. So the point as Sanjeev was making about hybrid. It's an interesting balance, isn't it, between getting your lowest cost and at the same time having best of breed and scale? >> It's basically what you're trying to optimize for, as you said, right? And by the way, to the earlier point, not everybody is at Walmart's scale, so it's not actually cheaper for everybody to have the purchasing power to make the cloud cheaper to have it on-prem. But I think what you see almost every company, large or small, moving towards is this concept of like, where do I find the agility? And is the agility in building the infrastructure for me? And typically, the thing that gives you outside advantage as an organization is not how you constructed your cloud computing infrastructure. It might be how you structured your data analytics as an example, which cloud is related to that. But how do you marry those two things? And getting back to sort of Sanjeev's point. We're in a real struggle now where one hand we want to have best of breed services and on the other hand we want it to be really easy to manage, secure, do data governance. And those two things are really at odds with each other right now. So if you want all the knobs and switches of a service like geospatial analytics and big query, you're going to have to use Google tools, right? Whereas if you want visibility across all the clouds for your application of state and understand the security and governance of that, you're kind of looking for something that's more cross-cloud tooling at that point. But whenever you talk to somebody about cross-cloud tooling, they look at you like that's not really possible. So it's a very interesting time in the market. Now, we're kind of layering this concept of supercloud on it. And some people think supercloud's about basically multi-cloud tooling, and some people think it's about a whole new architectural stack. So we're just not there yet. But it's not all about cost. I mean, cloud has not been about cost for a very, very long time. Cloud has been about how do you really make the most of your data. And this gets back to cross-cloud services like Snowflake. Why did they even exist? They existed because we had data everywhere, but we need to treat data as a unified object so that we can analyze it and get insight from it. And so that's where some of the benefit of these cross-cloud services are moving today. Still a long way to go, though, Dave. >> Keith, I reached out to my friends at ETR given the macro headwinds, And you're right, Maribel, cloud hasn't really been about just about cost savings. But I reached out to the ETR, guys, what's your data show in terms of how customers are dealing with the economic headwinds? And they said, by far, their number one strategy to cut cost is consolidating redundant vendors. And a distant second, but still notable was optimizing cloud costs. Maybe using reserve instances, or using more volume buying. Nowhere in there. And I asked them to, "Could you go look and see if you can find it?" Do we see repatriation? And you hear this a lot. You hear people whispering as analysts, "You better look into that repatriation trend." It's pretty big. You can't find it. But some of the Walmarts in the world, maybe even not repatriating, but they maybe have better cost structure on-prem. Keith, what are you seeing from the practitioners that you talk to in terms of how they're dealing with these headwinds? >> Yeah, I just got into a conversation about this just this morning with (indistinct) who is an analyst over at GigaHome. He's reading the same headlines. Repatriation is happening at large scale. I think this is kind of, we have these quiet terms now. We have quiet quitting, we have quiet hiring. I think we have quiet repatriation. Most people haven't done away with their data centers. They're still there. Whether they're completely on-premises data centers, and they own assets, or they're partnerships with QTX, Equinix, et cetera, they have these private cloud resources. What I'm seeing practically is a rebalancing of workloads. Do I really need to pay AWS for this instance of SAP that's on 24 hours a day versus just having it on-prem, moving it back to my data center? I've talked to quite a few customers who were early on to moving their static SAP workloads onto the public cloud, and they simply moved them back. Surprising, I was at VMware Explore. And we can talk about this a little bit later on. But our customers, net new, not a lot that were born in the cloud. And they get to this point where their workloads are static. And they look at something like a Kubernetes, or a OpenShift, or VMware Tanzu. And they ask the question, "Do I need the scalability of cloud?" I might consider being a net new VMware customer to deliver this base capability. So are we seeing repatriation as the number one reason? No, I think internal IT operations are just naturally come to this realization. Hey, I have these resources on premises. The private cloud technologies have moved far along enough that I can just simply move this workload back. I'm not calling it repatriation, I'm calling it rightsizing for the operating model that I have. >> Makes sense. Yeah. >> Go ahead. >> If I missed something, Dave, why we are on this topic of repatriation. I'm actually surprised that we are talking about repatriation as a very big thing. I think repatriation is happening, no doubt, but it's such a small percentage of cloud migration that to me it's a rounding error in my opinion. I think there's a bigger problem. The problem is that people don't know where the cost is. If they knew where the cost was being wasted in the cloud, they could do something about it. But if you don't know, then the easy answer is cloud costs a lot and moving it back to on-premises. I mean, take like Capital One as an example. They got rid of all the data centers. Where are they going to repatriate to? They're all in the cloud at this point. So I think my point is that data observability is one of the places that has seen a lot of traction is because of cost. Data observability, when it first came into existence, it was all about data quality. Then it was all about data pipeline reliability. And now, the number one killer use case is FinOps. >> Maribel, you had a comment? >> Yeah, I'm kind of in violent agreement with both Sanjeev and Keith. So what are we seeing here? So the first thing that we see is that many people wildly overspent in the big public cloud. They had stranded cloud credits, so to speak. The second thing is, some of them still had infrastructure that was useful. So why not use it if you find the right workloads to what Keith was talking about, if they were more static workloads, if it was already there? So there is a balancing that's going on. And then I think fundamentally, from a trend standpoint, these things aren't binary. Everybody, for a while, everything was going to go to the public cloud and then people are like, "Oh, it's kind of expensive." Then they're like, "Oh no, they're going to bring it all on-prem 'cause it's really expensive." And it's like, "Well, that doesn't necessarily get me some of the new features and functionalities I might want for some of my new workloads." So I'm going to put the workloads that have a certain set of characteristics that require cloud in the cloud. And if I have enough capability on-prem and enough IT resources to manage certain things on site, then I'm going to do that there 'cause that's a more cost-effective thing for me to do. It's not binary. That's why we went to hybrid. And then we went to multi just to describe the fact that people added multiple public clouds. And now we're talking about super, right? So I don't look at it as a one-size-fits-all for any of this. >> A a number of practitioners leading up to Supercloud2 have told us that they're solving their cloud complexity by going in monocloud. So they're putting on the blinders. Even though across the organization, there's other groups using other clouds. You're like, "In my group, we use AWS, or my group, we use Azure. And those guys over there, they use Google. We just kind of keep it separate." Are you guys hearing this in your view? Is that risky? Are they missing out on some potential to tap best of breed? What do you guys think about that? >> Everybody thinks they're monocloud. Is anybody really monocloud? It's like a group is monocloud, right? >> Right. >> This genie is out of the bottle. We're not putting the genie back in the bottle. You might think your monocloud and you go like three doors down and figure out the guy or gal is on a fundamentally different cloud, running some analytics workload that you didn't know about. So, to Sanjeev's earlier point, they don't even know where their cloud spend is. So I think the concept of monocloud, how that's actually really realized by practitioners is primary and then secondary sources. So they have a primary cloud that they run most of their stuff on, and that they try to optimize. And we still have forked workloads. Somebody decides, "Okay, this SAP runs really well on this, or these analytics workloads run really well on that cloud." And maybe that's how they parse it. But if you really looked at it, there's very few companies, if you really peaked under the hood and did an analysis that you could find an actual monocloud structure. They just want to pull it back in and make it more manageable. And I respect that. You want to do what you can to try to streamline the complexity of that. >> Yeah, we're- >> Sorry, go ahead, Keith. >> Yeah, we're doing this thing where we review AWS service every day. Just in your inbox, learn about a new AWS service cursory. There's 238 AWS products just on the AWS cloud itself. Some of them are redundant, but you get the idea. So the concept of monocloud, I'm in filing agreement with Maribel on this that, yes, a group might say I want a primary cloud. And that primary cloud may be the AWS. But have you tried the licensed Oracle database on AWS? It is really tempting to license Oracle on Oracle Cloud, Microsoft on Microsoft. And I can't get RDS anywhere but Amazon. So while I'm driven to desire the simplicity, the reality is whether be it M&A, licensing, data sovereignty. I am forced into a multi-cloud management style. But I do agree most people kind of do this one, this primary cloud, secondary cloud. And I guarantee you're going to have a third cloud or a fourth cloud whether you want to or not via shadow IT, latency, technical reasons, et cetera. >> Thank you. Sanjeev, you had a comment? >> Yeah, so I just wanted to mention, as an organization, I'm complete agreement, no organization is monocloud, at least if it's a large organization. Large organizations use all kinds of combinations of cloud providers. But when you talk about a single workload, that's where the program arises. As Keith said, the 238 services in AWS. How in the world am I going to be an expert in AWS, but then say let me bring GCP or Azure into a single workload? And that's where I think we probably will still see monocloud as being predominant because the team has developed its expertise on a particular cloud provider, and they just don't have the time of the day to go learn yet another stack. However, there are some interesting things that are happening. For example, if you look at a multi-cloud example where Oracle and Microsoft Azure have that interconnect, so that's a beautiful thing that they've done because now in the newest iteration, it's literally a few clicks. And then behind the scene, your .NET application and your Oracle database in OCI will be configured, the identities in active directory are federated. And you can just start using a database in one cloud, which is OCI, and an application, your .NET in Azure. So till we see this kind of a solution coming out of the providers, I think it's is unrealistic to expect the end users to be able to figure out multiple clouds. >> Well, I have to share with you. I can't remember if he said this on camera or if it was off camera so I'll hold off. I won't tell you who it is, but this individual was sort of complaining a little bit saying, "With AWS, I can take their best AI tools like SageMaker and I can run them on my Snowflake." He said, "I can't do that in Google. Google forces me to go to BigQuery if I want their excellent AI tools." So he was sort of pushing, kind of tweaking a little bit. Some of the vendor talked that, "Oh yeah, we're so customer-focused." Not to pick on Google, but I mean everybody will say that. And then you say, "If you're so customer-focused, why wouldn't you do a ABC?" So it's going to be interesting to see who leads that integration and how broadly it's applied. But I digress. Keith, at our first supercloud event, that was on August 9th. And it was only a few months after Broadcom announced the VMware acquisition. A lot of people, myself included said, "All right, cuts are coming." Generally, Tanzu is probably going to be under the radar, but it's Supercloud 22 and presumably VMware Explore, the company really... Well, certainly the US touted its Tanzu capabilities. I wasn't at VMware Explore Europe, but I bet you heard similar things. Hawk Tan has been blogging and very vocal about cross-cloud services and multi-cloud, which doesn't happen without Tanzu. So what did you hear, Keith, in Europe? What's your latest thinking on VMware's prospects in cross-cloud services/supercloud? >> So I think our friend and Cube, along host still be even more offended at this statement than he was when I sat in the Cube. This was maybe five years ago. There's no company better suited to help industries or companies, cross-cloud chasm than VMware. That's not a compliment. That's a reality of the industry. This is a very difficult, almost intractable problem. What I heard that VMware Europe were customers serious about this problem, even more so than the US data sovereignty is a real problem in the EU. Try being a company in Switzerland and having the Swiss data solvency issues. And there's no local cloud presence there large enough to accommodate your data needs. They had very serious questions about this. I talked to open source project leaders. Open source project leaders were asking me, why should I use the public cloud to host Kubernetes-based workloads, my projects that are building around Kubernetes, and the CNCF infrastructure? Why should I use AWS, Google, or even Azure to host these projects when that's undifferentiated? I know how to run Kubernetes, so why not run it on-premises? I don't want to deal with the hardware problems. So again, really great questions. And then there was always the specter of the problem, I think, we all had with the acquisition of VMware by Broadcom potentially. 4.5 billion in increased profitability in three years is a unbelievable amount of money when you look at the size of the problem. So a lot of the conversation in Europe was about industry at large. How do we do what regulators are asking us to do in a practical way from a true technology sense? Is VMware cross-cloud great? >> Yeah. So, VMware, obviously, to your point. OpenStack is another way of it. Actually, OpenStack, uptake is still alive and well, especially in those regions where there may not be a public cloud, or there's public policy dictating that. Walmart's using OpenStack. As you know in IT, some things never die. Question for Sanjeev. And it relates to this new breed of data apps. And Bob Muglia and Tristan Handy from DBT Labs who are participating in this program really got us thinking about this. You got data that resides in different clouds, it maybe even on-prem. And the machine polls data from different systems. No humans involved, e-commerce, ERP, et cetera. It creates a plan, outcomes. No human involvement. Today, you're on a CRM system, you're inputting, you're doing forms, you're, you're automating processes. We're talking about a new breed of apps. What are your thoughts on this? Is it real? Is it just way off in the distance? How does machine intelligence fit in? And how does supercloud fit? >> So great point. In fact, the data apps that you're talking about, I call them data products. Data products first came into limelight in the last couple of years when Jamal Duggan started talking about data mesh. I am taking data products out of the data mesh concept because data mesh, whether data mesh happens or not is analogous to data products. Data products, basically, are taking a product management view of bringing data from different sources based on what the consumer needs. We were talking earlier today about maybe it's my vacation rentals, or it may be a retail data product, it may be an investment data product. So it's a pre-packaged extraction of data from different sources. But now I have a product that has a whole lifecycle. I can version it. I have new features that get added. And it's a very business data consumer centric. It uses machine learning. For instance, I may be able to tell whether this data product has stale data. Who is using that data? Based on the usage of the data, I may have a new data products that get allocated. I may even have the ability to take existing data products, mash them up into something that I need. So if I'm going to have that kind of power to create a data product, then having a common substrate underneath, it can be very useful. And that could be supercloud where I am making API calls. I don't care where the ERP, the CRM, the survey data, the pricing engine where they sit. For me, there's a logical abstraction. And then I'm building my data product on top of that. So I see a new breed of data products coming out. To answer your question, how early we are or is this even possible? My prediction is that in 2023, we will start seeing more of data products. And then it'll take maybe two to three years for data products to become mainstream. But it's starting this year. >> A subprime mortgages were a data product, definitely were humans involved. All right, let's talk about some of the supercloud, multi-cloud players and what their future looks like. You can kind of pick your favorites. VMware, Snowflake, Databricks, Red Hat, Cisco, Dell, HP, Hashi, IBM, CloudFlare. There's many others. cohesive rubric. Keith, I wanted to start with CloudFlare because they actually use the term supercloud. and just simplifying what they said. They look at it as taking serverless to the max. You write your code and then you can deploy it in seconds worldwide, of course, across the CloudFlare infrastructure. You don't have to spin up containers, you don't go to provision instances. CloudFlare worries about all that infrastructure. What are your thoughts on CloudFlare this approach and their chances to disrupt the current cloud landscape? >> As Larry Ellison said famously once before, the network is the computer, right? I thought that was Scott McNeley. >> It wasn't Scott McNeley. I knew it was on Oracle Align. >> Oracle owns that now, owns that line. >> By purpose or acquisition. >> They should have just called it cloud. >> Yeah, they should have just called it cloud. >> Easier. >> Get ahead. >> But if you think about the CloudFlare capability, CloudFlare in its own right is becoming a decent sized cloud provider. If you have compute out at the edge, when we talk about edge in the sense of CloudFlare and points of presence, literally across the globe, you have all of this excess computer, what do you do with it? First offering, let's disrupt data in the cloud. We can't start the conversation talking about data. When they say we're going to give you object-oriented or object storage in the cloud without egress charges, that's disruptive. That we can start to think about supercloud capability of having compute EC2 run in AWS, pushing and pulling data from CloudFlare. And now, I've disrupted this roach motel data structure, and that I'm freely giving away bandwidth, basically. Well, the next layer is not that much more difficult. And I think part of CloudFlare's serverless approach or supercloud approaches so that they don't have to commit to a certain type of compute. It is advantageous. It is a feature for me to be able to go to EC2 and pick a memory heavy model, or a compute heavy model, or a network heavy model, CloudFlare is taken away those knobs. and I'm just giving code and allowing that to run. CloudFlare has a massive network. If I can put the code closest using the CloudFlare workers, if I can put that code closest to where the data is at or residing, super compelling observation. The question is, does it scale? I don't get the 238 services. While Server List is great, I have to know what I'm going to build. I don't have a Cognito, or RDS, or all these other services that make AWS, GCP, and Azure appealing from a builder's perspective. So it is a very interesting nascent start. It's great because now they can hide compute. If they don't have the capacity, they can outsource that maybe at a cost to one of the other cloud providers, but kind of hiding the compute behind the surplus architecture is a really unique approach. >> Yeah. And they're dipping their toe in the water. And they've announced an object store and a database platform and more to come. We got to wrap. So I wonder, Sanjeev and Maribel, if you could maybe pick some of your favorites from a competitive standpoint. Sanjeev, I felt like just watching Snowflake, I said, okay, in my opinion, they had the right strategy, which was to run on all the clouds, and then try to create that abstraction layer and data sharing across clouds. Even though, let's face it, most of it might be happening across regions if it's happening, but certainly outside of an individual account. But I felt like just observing them that anybody who's traditional on-prem player moving into the clouds or anybody who's a cloud native, it just makes total sense to write to the various clouds. And to the extent that you can simplify that for users, it seems to be a logical strategy. Maybe as I said before, what multi-cloud should have been. But are there companies that you're watching that you think are ahead in the game , or ones that you think are a good model for the future? >> Yes, Snowflake, definitely. In fact, one of the things we have not touched upon very much, and Keith mentioned a little bit, was data sovereignty. Data residency rules can require that certain data should be written into certain region of a certain cloud. And if my cloud provider can abstract that or my database provider, then that's perfect for me. So right now, I see Snowflake is way ahead of this pack. I would not put MongoDB too far behind. They don't really talk about this thing. They are in a different space, but now they have a lakehouse, and they've got all of these other SQL access and new capabilities that they're announcing. So I think they would be quite good with that. Oracle is always a dark forest. Oracle seems to have revived its Cloud Mojo to some extent. And it's doing some interesting stuff. Databricks is the other one. I have not seen Databricks. They've been very focused on lakehouse, unity, data catalog, and some of those pieces. But they would be the obvious challenger. And if they come into this space of supercloud, then they may bring some open source technologies that others can rely on like Delta Lake as a table format. >> Yeah. One of these infrastructure players, Dell, HPE, Cisco, even IBM. I mean, I would be making my infrastructure as programmable and cloud friendly as possible. That seems like table stakes. But Maribel, any companies that stand out to you that we should be paying attention to? >> Well, we already mentioned a bunch of them, so maybe I'll go a slightly different route. I'm watching two companies pretty closely to see what kind of traction they get in their established companies. One we already talked about, which is VMware. And the thing that's interesting about VMware is they're everywhere. And they also have the benefit of having a foot in both camps. If you want to do it the old way, the way you've always done it with VMware, they got all that going on. If you want to try to do a more cross-cloud, multi-cloud native style thing, they're really trying to build tools for that. So I think they have really good access to buyers. And that's one of the reasons why I'm interested in them to see how they progress. The other thing, I think, could be a sleeping horse oddly enough is Google Cloud. They've spent a lot of work and time on Anthos. They really need to create a certain set of differentiators. Well, it's not necessarily in their best interest to be the best multi-cloud player. If they decide that they want to differentiate on a different layer of the stack, let's say they want to be like the person that is really transformative, they talk about transformation cloud with analytics workloads, then maybe they do spend a good deal of time trying to help people abstract all of the other underlying infrastructure and make sure that they get the sexiest, most meaningful workloads into their cloud. So those are two people that you might not have expected me to go with, but I think it's interesting to see not just on the things that might be considered, either startups or more established independent companies, but how some of the traditional providers are trying to reinvent themselves as well. >> I'm glad you brought that up because if you think about what Google's done with Kubernetes. I mean, would Google even be relevant in the cloud without Kubernetes? I could argue both sides of that. But it was quite a gift to the industry. And there's a motivation there to do something unique and different from maybe the other cloud providers. And I'd throw in Red Hat as well. They're obviously a key player and Kubernetes. And Hashi Corp seems to be becoming the standard for application deployment, and terraform, or cross-clouds, and there are many, many others. I know we're leaving lots out, but we're out of time. Folks, I got to thank you so much for your insights and your participation in Supercloud2. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> This is Dave Vellante for John Furrier and the entire Cube community. Keep it right there for more content from Supercloud2.

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2. This is Dave Vellante. We're here exploring the intersection of data and analytics in the future of cloud and data. In this segment, we're going to look deeper into the life sciences business with Jesse Cugliotta, who leads the Healthcare and Life Sciences industry practice at Snowflake. And Nicholas Nick Taylor, who's the executive director of Informatics at Ionis Pharmaceuticals. Gentlemen, thanks for coming in theCUBE and participating in the program. Really appreciate it. >> Thank you for having us- >> Thanks for having me. >> You're very welcome, okay, we're go really try to look at data sharing as a use case and try to understand what's happening in the healthcare industry generally and specifically, how Nick thinks about sharing data in a governed fashion whether tapping the capabilities of multiple clouds is advantageous long term or presents more challenges than the effort is worth. And to start, Jesse, you lead this industry practice for Snowflake and it's a challenging and vibrant area. It's one that's hyper-focused on data privacy. So the first question is, you know there was a time when healthcare and other regulated industries wouldn't go near the cloud. What are you seeing today in the industry around cloud adoption and specifically multi-cloud adoption? >> Yeah, for years I've heard that healthcare and life sciences has been cloud diverse, but in spite of all of that if you look at a lot of aspects of this industry today, they've been running in the cloud for over 10 years now. Particularly when you look at CRM technologies or HR or HCM, even clinical technologies like EDC or ETMF. And it's interesting that you mentioned multi-cloud as well because this has always been an underlying reality especially within life sciences. This industry grows through acquisition where companies are looking to boost their future development pipeline either by buying up smaller biotechs, they may have like a late or a mid-stage promising candidate. And what typically happens is the larger pharma could then use their commercial muscle and their regulatory experience to move it to approvals and into the market. And I think the last few decades of cheap capital certainly accelerated that trend over the last couple of years. But this typically means that these new combined institutions may have technologies that are running on multiple clouds or multiple cloud strategies in various different regions to your point. And what we've often found is that they're not planning to standardize everything onto a single cloud provider. They're often looking for technologies that embrace this multi-cloud approach and work seamlessly across them. And I think this is a big reason why we, here at Snowflake, we've seen such strong momentum and growth across this industry because healthcare and life science has actually been one of our fastest growing sectors over the last couple of years. And a big part of that is in fact that we run on not only all three major cloud providers, but individual accounts within each and any one of them, they had the ability to communicate and interoperate with one another, like a globally interconnected database. >> Great, thank you for that setup. And so Nick, tell us more about your role and Ionis Pharma please. >> Sure. So I've been at Ionis for around five years now. You know, when when I joined it was, the IT department was pretty small. There wasn't a lot of warehousing, there wasn't a lot of kind of big data there. We saw an opportunity with Snowflake pretty early on as a provider that would be a lot of benefit for us, you know, 'cause we're small, wanted something that was fairly hands off. You know, I remember the days where you had to get a lot of DBAs in to fine tune your databases, make sure everything was running really, really well. The notion that there's, you know, no indexes to tune, right? There's very few knobs and dials, you can turn on Snowflake. That was appealing that, you know, it just kind of worked. So we found a use case to bring the platform in. We basically used it as a logging replacement as a Splunk kind of replacement with a platform called Elysium Analytics as a way to just get it in the door and give us the opportunity to solve a real world use case, but also to help us start to experiment using Snowflake as a platform. It took us a while to A, get the funding to bring it in, but B, build the momentum behind it. But, you know, as we experimented we added more data in there, we ran a few more experiments, we piloted in few more applications, we really saw the power of the platform and now, we are becoming a commercial organization. And with that comes a lot of major datasets. And so, you know, we really see Snowflake as being a very important part of our ecology going forward to help us build out our infrastructure. >> Okay, and you are running, your group runs on Azure, it's kind of mono cloud, single cloud, but others within Ionis are using other clouds, but you're not currently, you know, collaborating in terms of data sharing. And I wonder if you could talk about how your data needs have evolved over the past decade. I know you came from another highly regulated industry in financial services. So what's changed? You sort of touched on this before, you had these, you know, very specialized individuals who were, you know, DBAs, and, you know, could tune databases and the like, so that's evolved, but how has generally your needs evolved? Just kind of make an observation over the last, you know, five or seven years. What have you seen? >> Well, we, I wasn't in a group that did a lot of warehousing. It was more like online trade capture, but, you know, it was very much on-prem. You know, being in the cloud is very much a dirty word back then. I know that's changed since I've left. But in, you know, we had major, major teams of everyone who could do everything, right. As I mentioned in the pharma organization, there's a lot fewer of us. So the data needs there are very different, right? It's, we have a lot of SaaS applications. One of the difficulties with bringing a lot of SaaS applications on board is obviously data integration. So making sure the data is the same between them. But one of the big problems is joining the data across those SaaS applications. So one of the benefits, one of the things that we use Snowflake for is to basically take data out of these SaaS applications and load them into a warehouse so we can do those joins. So we use technologies like Boomi, we use technologies like Fivetran, like DBT to bring this data all into one place and start to kind of join that basically, allow us to do, run experiments, do analysis, basically take better, find better use for our data that was siloed in the past. You mentioned- >> Yeah. And just to add on to Nick's point there. >> Go ahead. >> That's actually something very common that we're seeing across the industry is because a lot of these SaaS applications that you mentioned, Nick, they're with from vendors that are trying to build their own ecosystem in walled garden. And by definition, many of them do not want to integrate with one another. So from a, you know, from a data platform vendor's perspective, we see this as a huge opportunity to help organizations like Ionis and others kind of deal with the challenges that Nick is speaking about because if the individual platform vendors are never going to make that part of their strategy, we see it as a great way to add additional value to these customers. >> Well, this data sharing thing is interesting. There's a lot of walled gardens out there. Oracle is a walled garden, AWS in many ways is a walled garden. You know, Microsoft has its walled garden. You could argue Snowflake is a walled garden. But the, what we're seeing and the whole reason behind the notion of super-cloud is we're creating an abstraction layer where you actually, in this case for this use case, can share data in a governed manner. Let's forget about the cross-cloud for a moment. I'll come back to that, but I wonder, Nick, if you could talk about how you are sharing data, again, Snowflake sort of, it's, I look at Snowflake like the app store, Apple, we're going to control everything, we're going to guarantee with data clean rooms and governance and the standards that we've created within that platform, we're going to make sure that it's safe for you to share data in this highly regulated industry. Are you doing that today? And take us through, you know, the considerations that you have in that regard. >> So it's kind of early days for us in Snowflake in general, but certainly in data sharing, we have a couple of examples. So data marketplace, you know, that's a great invention. It's, I've been a small IT shop again, right? The fact that we are able to just bring down terabyte size datasets straight into our Snowflake and run analytics directly on that is huge, right? The fact that we don't have to FTP these massive files around run jobs that may break, being able to just have that on tap is huge for us. We've recently been talking to one of our CRO feeds- CRO organizations about getting their data feeds in. Historically, this clinical trial data that comes in on an FTP file, we have to process it, take it through the platforms, put it into the warehouse. But one of the CROs that we talked to recently when we were reinvestigate in what data opportunities they have, they were a Snowflake customer and we are, I think, the first production customer they have, have taken that feed. So they're basically exposing their tables of data that historically came in these FTP files directly into our Snowflake instance now. We haven't taken advantage of that. It only actually flipped the switch about three or four weeks ago. But that's pretty big for us again, right? We don't have to worry about maintaining those jobs that take those files in. We don't have to worry about the jobs that take those and shove them on the warehouse. We now have a feed that's directly there that we can use a tool like DBT to push through directly into our model. And then the third avenue that's came up, actually fairly recently as well was genetics data. So genetics data that's highly, highly regulated. We had to be very careful with that. And we had a conversation with Snowflake about the data white rooms practice, and we see that as a pretty interesting opportunity. We are having one organization run genetic analysis being able to send us those genetic datasets, but then there's another organization that's actually has the in quotes "metadata" around that, so age, ethnicity, location, et cetera. And being able to join those two datasets through some kind of mechanism would be really beneficial to the organization. Being able to build a data white room so we can put that genetic data in a secure place, anonymize it, and then share the amalgamated data back out in a way that's able to be joined to the anonymized metadata, that could be pretty huge for us as well. >> Okay, so this is interesting. So you talk about FTP, which was the common way to share data. And so you basically, it's so, I got it now you take it and do whatever you want with it. Now we're talking, Jesse, about sharing the same copy of live data. How common is that use case in your industry? >> It's become very common over the last couple of years. And I think a big part of it is having the right technology to do it effectively. You know, as Nick mentioned, historically, this was done by people sending files around. And the challenge with that approach, of course, while there are multiple challenges, one, every time you send a file around your, by definition creating a copy of the data because you have to pull it out of your system of record, put it into a file, put it on some server where somebody else picks it up. And by definition at that point you've lost governance. So this creates challenges in general hesitation to doing so. It's not that it hasn't happened, but the other challenge with it is that the data's no longer real time. You know, you're working with a copy of data that was as fresh as at the time at that when that was actually extracted. And that creates limitations in terms of how effective this can be. What we're starting to see now with some of our customers is live sharing of information. And there's two aspects of that that are important. One is that you're not actually physically creating the copy and sending it to someone else, you're actually exposing it from where it exists and allowing another consumer to interact with it from their own account that could be in another region, some are running in another cloud. So this concept of super-cloud or cross-cloud could becoming realized here. But the other important aspect of it is that when that other- when that other entity is querying your data, they're seeing it in a real time state. And this is particularly important when you think about use cases like supply chain planning, where you're leveraging data across various different enterprises. If I'm a manufacturer or if I'm a contract manufacturer and I can see the actual inventory positions of my clients, of my distributors, of the levels of consumption at the pharmacy or the hospital that gives me a lot of indication as to how my demand profile is changing over time versus working with a static picture that may have been from three weeks ago. And this has become incredibly important as supply chains are becoming more constrained and the ability to plan accurately has never been more important. >> Yeah. So the race is on to solve these problems. So it start, we started with, hey, okay, cloud, Dave, we're going to simplify database, we're going to put it in the cloud, give virtually infinite resources, separate compute from storage. Okay, check, we got that. Now we've moved into sort of data clean rooms and governance and you've got an ecosystem that's forming around this to make it safer to share data. And then, you know, nirvana, at least near term nirvana is we're going to build data applications and we're going to be able to share live data and then you start to get into monetization. Do you see, Nick, in the near future where I know you've got relationships with, for instance, big pharma like AstraZeneca, do you see a situation where you start sharing data with them? Is that in the near term? Is that more long term? What are the considerations in that regard? >> I mean, it's something we've been thinking about. We haven't actually addressed that yet. Yeah, I could see situations where, you know, some of these big relationships where we do need to share a lot of data, it would be very nice to be able to just flick a switch and share our data assets across to those organizations. But, you know, that's a ways off for us now. We're mainly looking at bringing data in at the moment. >> One of the things that we've seen in financial services in particular, and Jesse, I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is companies like Goldman or Capital One or Nasdaq taking their stack, their software, their tooling actually putting it on the cloud and facing it to their customers and selling that as a new monetization vector as part of their digital or business transformation. Are you seeing that Jesse at all in healthcare or is it happening today or do you see a day when that happens or is healthier or just too scary to do that? >> No, we're seeing the early stages of this as well. And I think it's for some of the reasons we talked about earlier. You know, it's a much more secure way to work with a colleague if you don't have to copy your data and potentially expose it. And some of the reasons that people have historically copied that data is that they needed to leverage some sort of algorithm or application that a third party was providing. So maybe someone was predicting the ideal location and run a clinical trial for this particular rare disease category where there are only so many patients around the world that may actually be candidates for this disease. So you have to pick the ideal location. Well, sending the dataset to do so, you know, would involve a fairly complicated process similar to what Nick was mentioning earlier. If the company who was providing the logic or the algorithm to determine that location could bring that algorithm to you and you run it against your own data, that's a much more ideal and a much safer and more secure way for this industry to actually start to work with some of these partners and vendors. And that's one of the things that we're looking to enable going into this year is that, you know, the whole concept should be bring the logic to your data versus your data to the logic and the underlying sharing mechanisms that we've spoken about are actually what are powering that today. >> And so thank you for that, Jesse. >> Yes, Dave. >> And so Nick- Go ahead please. >> Yeah, if I could add, yeah, if I could add to that, that's something certainly we've been thinking about. In fact, we'd started talking to Snowflake about that a couple of years ago. We saw the power there again of the platform to be able to say, well, could we, we were thinking in more of a data share, but could we share our data out to say an AI/ML vendor, have them do the analytics and then share the data, the results back to us. Now, you know, there's more powerful mechanisms to do that within the Snowflake ecosystem now, but you know, we probably wouldn't need to have onsite AI/ML people, right? Some of that stuff's very sophisticated, expensive resources, hard to find, you know, it's much better for us to find a company that would be able to build those analytics, maintain those analytics for us. And you know, we saw an opportunity to do that a couple years ago and we're kind of excited about the opportunity there that we can just basically do it with a no op, right? We share the data route, we have the analytics done, we get the result back and it's just fairly seamless. >> I mean, I could have a whole another Cube session on this, guys, but I mean, I just did a a session with Andy Thurai, a Constellation research about how difficult it's been for organization to get ROI because they don't have the expertise in house so they want to either outsource it or rely on vendor R&D companies to inject that AI and machine intelligence directly into applications. My follow-up question to you Nick is, when you think about, 'cause Jesse was talking about, you know, let the data basically stay where it is and you know bring the compute to that data. If that data lives on different clouds, and maybe it's not your group, but maybe it's other parts of Ionis or maybe it's your partners like AstraZeneca, or you know, the AI/ML partners and they're potentially on other clouds or that data is on other clouds. Do you see that, again, coming back to super-cloud, do you see it as an advantage to be able to have a consistent experience across those clouds? Or is that just kind of get in the way and make things more complex? What's your take on that, Nick? >> Well, from the vendors, so from the client side, it's kind of seamless with Snowflake for us. So we know for a fact that one of the datasets we have at the moment, Compile, which is a, the large multi terabyte dataset I was talking about. They're on AWS on the East Coast and we are on Azure on the West Coast. And they had to do a few tweaks in the background to make sure the data was pushed over from, but from my point of view, the data just exists, right? So for me, I think it's hugely beneficial that Snowflake supports this kind of infrastructure, right? We don't have to jump through hoops to like, okay, well, we'll download it here and then re-upload it here. They already have the mechanism in the background to do these multi-cloud shares. So it's not important for us internally at the moment. I could see potentially at some point where we start linking across different groups in the organization that do have maybe Amazon or Google Cloud, but certainly within our providers. We know for a fact that they're on different services at the moment and it just works. >> Yeah, and we learned from Benoit Dageville, who came into the studio on August 9th with first Supercloud in 2022 that Snowflake uses a single global instance across regions and across clouds, yeah, whether or not you can query across you know, big regions, it just depends, right? It depends on latency. You might have to make a copy or maybe do some tweaks in the background. But guys, we got to jump, I really appreciate your time. Really thoughtful discussion on the future of data and cloud, specifically within healthcare and pharma. Thank you for your time. >> Thanks- >> Thanks for having us. >> All right, this is Dave Vellante for theCUBE team and my co-host, John Furrier. Keep it right there for more action at Supercloud 2. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) >> Welcome back to Supercloud 2, an open collaborative where we explore the future of cloud and data. Now, you might recall last August at the inaugural Supercloud event we validated the technical feasibility and tried to further define the essential technical characteristics, and of course the deployment models of so-called supercloud. That is, sets of services that leverage the underlying primitives of hyperscale clouds, but are creating new value on top of those clouds for organizations at scale. So we're talking about capabilities that fundamentally weren't practical or even possible prior to the ascendancy of the public clouds. And so today at Supercloud 2, we're digging further into the topic with input from real-world practitioners. And we're exploring the intersection of data and cloud, And importantly, the realities and challenges of deploying technology for a new business capability. I'm pleased to have with me in our studios, west of Boston, Veronika Durgin, who's the head of data at Saks. Veronika, welcome. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. So excited to be here. >> And so we have to say upfront, you're here, these are your opinions. You're not representing Saks in any way. So we appreciate you sharing your depth of knowledge with us. >> Thank you, Dave. Yeah, I've been doing data for a while. I try not to say how long anymore. It's been a while. But yeah, thank you for having me. >> Yeah, you're welcome. I mean, one of the highlights of this past year for me was hanging out at the airport with you after the Snowflake Summit. And we were just chatting about sort of data mesh, and you were saying, "Yeah, but." There was a yeah, but. You were saying there's some practical realities of actually implementing these things. So I want to get into some of that. And I guess starting from a perspective of how data has changed, you've seen a lot of the waves. I mean, even if we go back to pre-Hadoop, you know, that would shove everything into an Oracle database, or, you know, Hadoop was going to save our data lives. And the cloud came along and, you know, that was kind of a disruptive force. And, you know, now we see things like, whether it's Snowflake or Databricks or these other platforms on top of the clouds. How have you observed the change in data and the evolution over time? >> Yeah, so I started as a DBA in the data center, kind of like, you know, growing up trying to manage whatever, you know, physical limitations a server could give us. So we had to be very careful of what we put in our database because we were limited. We, you know, purchased that piece of hardware, and we had to use it for the next, I don't know, three to five years. So it was only, you know, we focused on only the most important critical things. We couldn't keep too much data. We had to be super efficient. We couldn't add additional functionality. And then Hadoop came along, which is like, great, we can dump all the data there, but then we couldn't get data out of it. So it was like, okay, great. Doesn't help either. And then the cloud came along, which was incredible. I was probably the most excited person. I'm lying, but I was super excited because I no longer had to worry about what I can actually put in my database. Now I have that, you know, scalability and flexibility with the cloud. So okay, great, that data's there, and I can also easily get it out of it, which is really incredible. >> Well, but so, I'm inferring from what you're saying with Hadoop, it was like, okay, no schema on write. And then you got to try to make sense out of it. But so what changed with the cloud? What was different? >> So I'll tell a funny story. I actually successfully avoided Hadoop. The only time- >> Congratulations. >> (laughs) I know, I'm like super proud of it. I don't know how that happened, but the only time I worked for a company that had Hadoop, all I remember is that they were running jobs that were taking over 24 hours to get data out of it. And they were realizing that, you know, dumping data without any structure into this massive thing that required, you know, really skilled engineers wasn't really helpful. So what changed, and I'm kind of thinking of like, kind of like how Snowflake started, right? They were marketing themselves as a data warehouse. For me, moving from SQL Server to Snowflake was a non-event. It was comfortable, I knew what it was, I knew how to get data out of it. And I think that's the important part, right? Cloud, this like, kind of like, vague, high-level thing, magical, but the reality is cloud is the same as what we had on prem. So it's comfortable there. It's not scary. You don't need super new additional skills to use it. >> But you're saying what's different is the scale. So you can throw resources at it. You don't have to worry about depreciating your hardware over three to five years. Hey, I have an asset that I have to take advantage of. Is that the big difference? >> Absolutely. Actually, from kind of like operational perspective, which it's funny. Like, I don't have to worry about it. I use what I need when I need it. And not to take this completely in the opposite direction, people stop thinking about using things in a very smart way, right? You like, scale and you walk away. And then, you know, the cool thing about cloud is it's scalable, but you also should not use it when you don't need it. >> So what about this idea of multicloud. You know, supercloud sort of tries to go beyond multicloud. it's like multicloud by accident. And now, you know, whether it's M&A or, you know, some Skunkworks is do, hey, I like Google's tools, so I'm going to use Google. And then people like you are called on to, hey, how do we clean up this mess? And you know, you and I, at the airport, we were talking about data mesh. And I love the concept. Like, doesn't matter if it's a data lake or a data warehouse or a data hub or an S3 bucket. It's just a node on the mesh. But then, of course, you've got to govern it. You've got to give people self-serve. But this multicloud is a reality. So from your perspective, from a practitioner's perspective, what are the advantages of multicloud? We talk about the disadvantages all the time. Kind of get that, but what are the advantages? >> So I think the first thing when I think multicloud, I actually think high-availability disaster recovery. And maybe it's just how I grew up in the data center, right? We were always worried that if something happened in one area, we want to make sure that we can bring business up very quickly. So to me that's kind of like where multicloud comes to mind because, you know, you put your data, your applications, let's pick on AWS for a second and, you know, US East in AWS, which is the busiest kind of like area that they have. If it goes down, for my business to continue, I would probably want to move it to, say, Azure, hypothetically speaking, again, or Google, whatever that is. So to me, and probably again based on my background, disaster recovery high availability comes to mind as multicloud first, but now the other part of it is that there are, you know, companies and tools and applications that are being built in, you know, pick your cloud. How do we talk to each other? And more importantly, how do we data share? You know, I work with data. You know, this is what I do. So if, you know, I want to get data from a company that's using, say, Google, how do we share it in a smooth way where it doesn't have to be this crazy, I don't know, SFTP file moving. So that's where I think supercloud comes to me in my mind, is like practical applications. How do we create that mesh, that network that we can easily share data with each other? >> So you kind of answered my next question, is do you see use cases going beyond H? I mean, the HADR was, remember, that was the original cloud use case. That and bursting, you know, for, you know, Thanksgiving or, you know, for Black Friday. So you see an opportunity to go beyond that with practical use cases. >> Absolutely. I think, you know, we're getting to a world where every company is a data company. We all collect a lot of data. We want to use it for whatever that is. It doesn't necessarily mean sell it, but use it to our competitive advantage. So how do we do it in a very smooth, easy way, which opens additional opportunities for companies? >> You mentioned data sharing. And that's obviously, you know, I met you at Snowflake Summit. That's a big thing of Snowflake's. And of course, you've got Databricks trying to do similar things with open technology. What do you see as the trade-offs there? Because Snowflake, you got to come into their party, you're in their world, and you're kind of locked into that world. Now they're trying to open up. You know, and of course, Databricks, they don't know our world is wide open. Well, we know what that means, you know. The governance. And so now you're seeing, you saw Amazon come out with data clean rooms, which was, you know, that was a good idea that Snowflake had several years before. It's good. It's good validation. So how do you think about the trade-offs between kind of openness and freedom versus control? Is the latter just far more important? >> I'll tell you it depends, right? It's kind of like- >> Could be insulting to that. >> Yeah, I know. It depends because I don't know the answer. It depends, I think, because on the use case and application, ultimately every company wants to make money. That's the beauty of our like, capitalistic economy, right? We're driven 'cause we want to make money. But from the use, you know, how do I sell a product to somebody who's in Google if I am in AWS, right? It's like, we're limiting ourselves if we just do one cloud. But again, it's difficult because at the same time, every cloud provider wants for you to be locked in their cloud, which is why probably, you know, whoever has now data sharing because they want you to stay within their ecosystem. But then again, like, companies are limited. You know, there are applications that are starting to be built on top of clouds. How do we ensure that, you know, I can use that application regardless what cloud, you know, my company is using or I just happen to like. >> You know, and it's true they want you to stay in their ecosystem 'cause they'll make more money. But as well, you think about Apple, right? Does Apple do it 'cause they can make more money? Yes, but it's also they have more control, right? Am I correct that technically it's going to be easier to govern that data if it's all the sort of same standard, right? >> Absolutely. 100%. I didn't answer that question. You have to govern and you have to control. And honestly, it's like it's not like a nice-to-have anymore. There are compliances. There are legal compliances around data. Everybody at some point wants to ensure that, you know, and as a person, quite honestly, you know, not to be, you know, I don't like when my data's used when I don't know how. Like, it's a little creepy, right? So we have to come up with standards around that. But then I also go back in the day. EDI, right? Electronic data interchange. That was figured out. There was standards. Companies were sending data to each other. It was pretty standard. So I don't know. Like, we'll get there. >> Yeah, so I was going to ask you, do you see a day where open standards actually emerge to enable that? And then isn't that the great disruptor to sort of kind of the proprietary stack? >> I think so. I think for us to smoothly exchange data across, you know, various systems, various applications, we'll have to agree to have standards. >> From a developer perspective, you know, back to the sort of supercloud concept, one of the the components of the essential characteristics is you've got this PaaS layer that provides consistency across clouds, and it has unique attributes specific to the purpose of that supercloud. So in the instance of Snowflake, it's data sharing. In the case of, you know, VMware, it might be, you know, infrastructure or self-serve infrastructure that's consistent. From a developer perspective, what do you hear from developers in terms of what they want? Are we close to getting that across clouds? >> I think developers always want freedom and ability to engineer. And oftentimes it's not, (laughs) you know, just as an engineer, I always want to build something, and it's not always for the, to use a specific, you know, it's something I want to do versus what is actually applicable. I think we'll land there, but not because we are, you know, out of the kindness of our own hearts. I think as a necessity we will have to agree to standards, and that that'll like, move the needle. Yeah. >> What are the limitations that you see of cloud and this notion of, you know, even cross cloud, right? I mean, this one cloud can't do it all. You know, but what do you see as the limitations of clouds? >> I mean, it's funny, I always think, you know, again, kind of probably my background, I grew up in the data center. We were physically limited by space, right? That there's like, you can only put, you know, so many servers in the rack and, you know, so many racks in the data center, and then you run out space. Earth has a limited space, right? And we have so many data centers, and everybody's collecting a lot of data that we actually want to use. We're not just collecting for the sake of collecting it anymore. We truly can't take advantage of it because servers have enough power, right, to crank through it. We will run enough space. So how do we balance that? How do we balance that data across all the various data centers? And I know I'm like, kind of maybe talking crazy, but until we figure out how to build a data center on the Moon, right, like, we will have to figure out how to take advantage of all the compute capacity that we have across the world. >> And where does latency fit in? I mean, is it as much of a problem as people sort of think it is? Maybe it depends too. It depends on the use case. But do multiple clouds help solve that problem? Because, you know, even AWS, $80 billion company, they're huge, but they're not everywhere. You know, they're doing local zones, they're doing outposts, which is, you know, less functional than their full cloud. So maybe I would choose to go to another cloud. And if I could have that common experience, that's an advantage, isn't it? >> 100%, absolutely. And potentially there's some maybe pricing tiers, right? So we're talking about latency. And again, it depends on your situation. You know, if you have some sort of medical equipment that is very latency sensitive, you want to make sure that data lives there. But versus, you know, I browse on a website. If the website takes a second versus two seconds to load, do I care? Not exactly. Like, I don't notice that. So we can reshuffle that in a smart way. And I keep thinking of ways. If we have ways for data where it kind of like, oh, you are stuck in traffic, go this way. You know, reshuffle you through that data center. You know, maybe your data will live there. So I think it's totally possible. I know, it's a little crazy. >> No, I like it, though. But remember when you first found ways, you're like, "Oh, this is awesome." And then now it's like- >> And it's like crowdsourcing, right? Like, it's smart. Like, okay, maybe, you know, going to pick on US East for Amazon for a little bit, their oldest, but also busiest data center that, you know, periodically goes down. >> But then you lose your competitive advantage 'cause now it's like traffic socialism. >> Yeah, I know. >> Right? It happened the other day where everybody's going this way up. There's all the Wazers taking. >> And also again, compliance, right? Every country is going down the path of where, you know, data needs to reside within that country. So it's not as like, socialist or democratic as we wish for it to be. >> Well, that's a great point. I mean, when you just think about the clouds, the limitation, now you go out to the edge. I mean, everybody talks about the edge in IoT. Do you actually think that there's like a whole new stove pipe that's going to get created. And does that concern you, or do you think it actually is going to be, you know, connective tissue with all these clouds? >> I honestly don't know. I live in a practical world of like, how does it help me right now? How does it, you know, help me in the next five years? And mind you, in five years, things can change a lot. Because if you think back five years ago, things weren't as they are right now. I mean, I really hope that somebody out there challenges things 'cause, you know, the whole cloud promise was crazy. It was insane. Like, who came up with it? Why would I do that, right? And now I can't imagine the world without it. >> Yeah, I mean a lot of it is same wine, new bottle. You know, but a lot of it is different, right? I mean, technology keeps moving us forward, doesn't it? >> Absolutely. >> Veronika, it was great to have you. Thank you so much for your perspectives. If there was one thing that the industry could do for your data life that would make your world better, what would it be? >> I think standards for like data sharing, data marketplace. I would love, love, love nothing else to have some agreed upon standards. >> I had one other question for you, actually. I forgot to ask you this. 'Cause you were saying every company's a data company. Every company's a software company. We're already seeing it, but how prevalent do you think it will be that companies, you've seen some of it in financial services, but companies begin to now take their own data, their own tooling, their own software, which they've developed internally, and point that to the outside world? Kind of do what AWS did. You know, working backwards from the customer and saying, "Hey, we did this for ourselves. We can now do this for the rest of the world." Do you see that as a real trend, or is that Dave's pie in the sky? >> I think it's a real trend. Every company's trying to reinvent themselves and come up with new products. And every company is a data company. Every company collects data, and they're trying to figure out what to do with it. And again, it's not necessarily to sell it. Like, you don't have to sell data to monetize it. You can use it with your partners. You can exchange data. You know, you can create products. Capital One I think created a product for Snowflake pricing. I don't recall, but it just, you know, they built it for themselves, and they decided to kind of like, monetize on it. And I'm absolutely 100% on board with that. I think it's an amazing idea. >> Yeah, Goldman is another example. Nasdaq is basically taking their exchange stack and selling it around the world. And the cloud is available to do that. You don't have to build your own data center. >> Absolutely. Or for good, right? Like, we're talking about, again, we live in a capitalist country, but use data for good. We're collecting data. We're, you know, analyzing it, we're aggregating it. How can we use it for greater good for the planet? >> Veronika, thanks so much for coming to our Marlborough studios. Always a pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you so much for having me. >> You're really welcome. All right, stay tuned for more great content. From Supercloud 2, this is Dave Vellante. We'll be right back. (upbeat music)

>>From the Cube Studios in Palo Alto in Boston, bringing you data-driven insights from the cube and E T R. This is breaking analysis with Dave Valante. >>Making technology predictions in 2022 was tricky business, especially if you were projecting the performance of markets or identifying I P O prospects and making binary forecast on data AI and the macro spending climate and other related topics in enterprise tech 2022, of course was characterized by a seesaw economy where central banks were restructuring their balance sheets. The war on Ukraine fueled inflation supply chains were a mess. And the unintended consequences of of forced march to digital and the acceleration still being sorted out. Hello and welcome to this week's weekly on Cube Insights powered by E T R. In this breaking analysis, we continue our annual tradition of transparently grading last year's enterprise tech predictions. And you may or may not agree with our self grading system, but look, we're gonna give you the data and you can draw your own conclusions and tell you what, tell us what you think. >>All right, let's get right to it. So our first prediction was tech spending increases by 8% in 2022. And as we exited 2021 CIOs, they were optimistic about their digital transformation plans. You know, they rushed to make changes to their business and were eager to sharpen their focus and continue to iterate on their digital business models and plug the holes that they, the, in the learnings that they had. And so we predicted that 8% rise in enterprise tech spending, which looked pretty good until Ukraine and the Fed decided that, you know, had to rush and make up for lost time. We kind of nailed the momentum in the energy sector, but we can't give ourselves too much credit for that layup. And as of October, Gartner had it spending growing at just over 5%. I think it was 5.1%. So we're gonna take a C plus on this one and, and move on. >>Our next prediction was basically kind of a slow ground ball. The second base, if I have to be honest, but we felt it was important to highlight that security would remain front and center as the number one priority for organizations in 2022. As is our tradition, you know, we try to up the degree of difficulty by specifically identifying companies that are gonna benefit from these trends. So we highlighted some possible I P O candidates, which of course didn't pan out. S NQ was on our radar. The company had just had to do another raise and they recently took a valuation hit and it was a down round. They raised 196 million. So good chunk of cash, but, but not the i p O that we had predicted Aqua Securities focus on containers and cloud native. That was a trendy call and we thought maybe an M SS P or multiple managed security service providers like Arctic Wolf would I p o, but no way that was happening in the crummy market. >>Nonetheless, we think these types of companies, they're still faring well as the talent shortage in security remains really acute, particularly in the sort of mid-size and small businesses that often don't have a sock Lacework laid off 20% of its workforce in 2022. And CO C e o Dave Hatfield left the company. So that I p o didn't, didn't happen. It was probably too early for Lacework. Anyway, meanwhile you got Netscope, which we've cited as strong in the E T R data as particularly in the emerging technology survey. And then, you know, I lumia holding its own, you know, we never liked that 7 billion price tag that Okta paid for auth zero, but we loved the TAM expansion strategy to target developers beyond sort of Okta's enterprise strength. But we gotta take some points off of the failure thus far of, of Okta to really nail the integration and the go to market model with azero and build, you know, bring that into the, the, the core Okta. >>So the focus on endpoint security that was a winner in 2022 is CrowdStrike led that charge with others holding their own, not the least of which was Palo Alto Networks as it continued to expand beyond its core network security and firewall business, you know, through acquisition. So overall we're gonna give ourselves an A minus for this relatively easy call, but again, we had some specifics associated with it to make it a little tougher. And of course we're watching ve very closely this this coming year in 2023. The vendor consolidation trend. You know, according to a recent Palo Alto network survey with 1300 SecOps pros on average organizations have more than 30 tools to manage security tools. So this is a logical way to optimize cost consolidating vendors and consolidating redundant vendors. The E T R data shows that's clearly a trend that's on the upswing. >>Now moving on, a big theme of 2020 and 2021 of course was remote work and hybrid work and new ways to work and return to work. So we predicted in 2022 that hybrid work models would become the dominant protocol, which clearly is the case. We predicted that about 33% of the workforce would come back to the office in 2022 in September. The E T R data showed that figure was at 29%, but organizations expected that 32% would be in the office, you know, pretty much full-time by year end. That hasn't quite happened, but we were pretty close with the projection, so we're gonna take an A minus on this one. Now, supply chain disruption was another big theme that we felt would carry through 2022. And sure that sounds like another easy one, but as is our tradition, again we try to put some binary metrics around our predictions to put some meat in the bone, so to speak, and and allow us than you to say, okay, did it come true or not? >>So we had some data that we presented last year and supply chain issues impacting hardware spend. We said at the time, you can see this on the left hand side of this chart, the PC laptop demand would remain above pre covid levels, which would reverse a decade of year on year declines, which I think started in around 2011, 2012. Now, while demand is down this year pretty substantially relative to 2021, I D C has worldwide unit shipments for PCs at just over 300 million for 22. If you go back to 2019 and you're looking at around let's say 260 million units shipped globally, you know, roughly, so, you know, pretty good call there. Definitely much higher than pre covid levels. But so what you might be asking why the B, well, we projected that 30% of customers would replace security appliances with cloud-based services and that more than a third would replace their internal data center server and storage hardware with cloud services like 30 and 40% respectively. >>And we don't have explicit survey data on exactly these metrics, but anecdotally we see this happening in earnest. And we do have some data that we're showing here on cloud adoption from ET R'S October survey where the midpoint of workloads running in the cloud is around 34% and forecast, as you can see, to grow steadily over the next three years. So this, well look, this is not, we understand it's not a one-to-one correlation with our prediction, but it's a pretty good bet that we were right, but we gotta take some points off, we think for the lack of unequivocal proof. Cause again, we always strive to make our predictions in ways that can be measured as accurate or not. Is it binary? Did it happen, did it not? Kind of like an O K R and you know, we strive to provide data as proof and in this case it's a bit fuzzy. >>We have to admit that although we're pretty comfortable that the prediction was accurate. And look, when you make an hard forecast, sometimes you gotta pay the price. All right, next, we said in 2022 that the big four cloud players would generate 167 billion in IS and PaaS revenue combining for 38% market growth. And our current forecasts are shown here with a comparison to our January, 2022 figures. So coming into this year now where we are today, so currently we expect 162 billion in total revenue and a 33% growth rate. Still very healthy, but not on our mark. So we think a w s is gonna miss our predictions by about a billion dollars, not, you know, not bad for an 80 billion company. So they're not gonna hit that expectation though of getting really close to a hundred billion run rate. We thought they'd exit the year, you know, closer to, you know, 25 billion a quarter and we don't think they're gonna get there. >>Look, we pretty much nailed Azure even though our prediction W was was correct about g Google Cloud platform surpassing Alibaba, Alibaba, we way overestimated the performance of both of those companies. So we're gonna give ourselves a C plus here and we think, yeah, you might think it's a little bit harsh, we could argue for a B minus to the professor, but the misses on GCP and Alibaba we think warrant a a self penalty on this one. All right, let's move on to our prediction about Supercloud. We said it becomes a thing in 2022 and we think by many accounts it has, despite the naysayers, we're seeing clear evidence that the concept of a layer of value add that sits above and across clouds is taking shape. And on this slide we showed just some of the pickup in the industry. I mean one of the most interesting is CloudFlare, the biggest supercloud antagonist. >>Charles Fitzgerald even predicted that no vendor would ever use the term in their marketing. And that would be proof if that happened that Supercloud was a thing and he said it would never happen. Well CloudFlare has, and they launched their version of Supercloud at their developer week. Chris Miller of the register put out a Supercloud block diagram, something else that Charles Fitzgerald was, it was was pushing us for, which is rightly so, it was a good call on his part. And Chris Miller actually came up with one that's pretty good at David Linthicum also has produced a a a A block diagram, kind of similar, David uses the term metacloud and he uses the term supercloud kind of interchangeably to describe that trend. And so we we're aligned on that front. Brian Gracely has covered the concept on the popular cloud podcast. Berkeley launched the Sky computing initiative. >>You read through that white paper and many of the concepts highlighted in the Supercloud 3.0 community developed definition align with that. Walmart launched a platform with many of the supercloud salient attributes. So did Goldman Sachs, so did Capital One, so did nasdaq. So you know, sorry you can hate the term, but very clearly the evidence is gathering for the super cloud storm. We're gonna take an a plus on this one. Sorry, haters. Alright, let's talk about data mesh in our 21 predictions posts. We said that in the 2020s, 75% of large organizations are gonna re-architect their big data platforms. So kind of a decade long prediction. We don't like to do that always, but sometimes it's warranted. And because it was a longer term prediction, we, at the time in, in coming into 22 when we were evaluating our 21 predictions, we took a grade of incomplete because the sort of decade long or majority of the decade better part of the decade prediction. >>So last year, earlier this year, we said our number seven prediction was data mesh gains momentum in 22. But it's largely confined and narrow data problems with limited scope as you can see here with some of the key bullets. So there's a lot of discussion in the data community about data mesh and while there are an increasing number of examples, JP Morgan Chase, Intuit, H S P C, HelloFresh, and others that are completely rearchitecting parts of their data platform completely rearchitecting entire data platforms is non-trivial. There are organizational challenges, there're data, data ownership, debates, technical considerations, and in particular two of the four fundamental data mesh principles that the, the need for a self-service infrastructure and federated computational governance are challenging. Look, democratizing data and facilitating data sharing creates conflicts with regulatory requirements around data privacy. As such many organizations are being really selective with their data mesh implementations and hence our prediction of narrowing the scope of data mesh initiatives. >>I think that was right on J P M C is a good example of this, where you got a single group within a, within a division narrowly implementing the data mesh architecture. They're using a w s, they're using data lakes, they're using Amazon Glue, creating a catalog and a variety of other techniques to meet their objectives. They kind of automating data quality and it was pretty well thought out and interesting approach and I think it's gonna be made easier by some of the announcements that Amazon made at the recent, you know, reinvent, particularly trying to eliminate ET t l, better connections between Aurora and Redshift and, and, and better data sharing the data clean room. So a lot of that is gonna help. Of course, snowflake has been on this for a while now. Many other companies are facing, you know, limitations as we said here and this slide with their Hadoop data platforms. They need to do new, some new thinking around that to scale. HelloFresh is a really good example of this. Look, the bottom line is that organizations want to get more value from data and having a centralized, highly specialized teams that own the data problem, it's been a barrier and a blocker to success. The data mesh starts with organizational considerations as described in great detail by Ash Nair of Warner Brothers. So take a listen to this clip. >>Yeah, so when people think of Warner Brothers, you always think of like the movie studio, but we're more than that, right? I mean, you think of H B O, you think of t n t, you think of C N N. We have 30 plus brands in our portfolio and each have their own needs. So the, the idea of a data mesh really helps us because what we can do is we can federate access across the company so that, you know, CNN can work at their own pace. You know, when there's election season, they can ingest their own data and they don't have to, you know, bump up against, as an example, HBO if Game of Thrones is going on. >>So it's often the case that data mesh is in the eyes of the implementer. And while a company's implementation may not strictly adhere to Jamma Dani's vision of data mesh, and that's okay, the goal is to use data more effectively. And despite Gartner's attempts to deposition data mesh in favor of the somewhat confusing or frankly far more confusing data fabric concept that they stole from NetApp data mesh is taking hold in organizations globally today. So we're gonna take a B on this one. The prediction is shaping up the way we envision, but as we previously reported, it's gonna take some time. The better part of a decade in our view, new standards have to emerge to make this vision become reality and they'll come in the form of both open and de facto approaches. Okay, our eighth prediction last year focused on the face off between Snowflake and Databricks. >>And we realized this popular topic, and maybe one that's getting a little overplayed, but these are two companies that initially, you know, looked like they were shaping up as partners and they, by the way, they are still partnering in the field. But you go back a couple years ago, the idea of using an AW w s infrastructure, Databricks machine intelligence and applying that on top of Snowflake as a facile data warehouse, still very viable. But both of these companies, they have much larger ambitions. They got big total available markets to chase and large valuations that they have to justify. So what's happening is, as we've previously reported, each of these companies is moving toward the other firm's core domain and they're building out an ecosystem that'll be critical for their future. So as part of that effort, we said each is gonna become aggressive investors and maybe start doing some m and a and they have in various companies. >>And on this chart that we produced last year, we studied some of the companies that were targets and we've added some recent investments of both Snowflake and Databricks. As you can see, they've both, for example, invested in elation snowflake's, put money into Lacework, the Secur security firm, ThoughtSpot, which is trying to democratize data with ai. Collibra is a governance platform and you can see Databricks investments in data transformation with D B T labs, Matillion doing simplified business intelligence hunters. So that's, you know, they're security investment and so forth. So other than our thought that we'd see Databricks I p o last year, this prediction been pretty spot on. So we'll give ourselves an A on that one. Now observability has been a hot topic and we've been covering it for a while with our friends at E T R, particularly Eric Bradley. Our number nine prediction last year was basically that if you're not cloud native and observability, you are gonna be in big trouble. >>So everything guys gotta go cloud native. And that's clearly been the case. Splunk, the big player in the space has been transitioning to the cloud, hasn't always been pretty, as we reported, Datadog real momentum, the elk stack, that's open source model. You got new entrants that we've cited before, like observe, honeycomb, chaos search and others that we've, we've reported on, they're all born in the cloud. So we're gonna take another a on this one, admittedly, yeah, it's a re reasonably easy call, but you gotta have a few of those in the mix. Okay, our last prediction, our number 10 was around events. Something the cube knows a little bit about. We said that a new category of events would emerge as hybrid and that for the most part is happened. So that's gonna be the mainstay is what we said. That pure play virtual events are gonna give way to hi hybrid. >>And the narrative is that virtual only events are, you know, they're good for quick hits, but lousy replacements for in-person events. And you know that said, organizations of all shapes and sizes, they learn how to create better virtual content and support remote audiences during the pandemic. So when we set at pure play is gonna give way to hybrid, we said we, we i we implied or specific or specified that the physical event that v i p experience is going defined. That overall experience and those v i p events would create a little fomo, fear of, of missing out in a virtual component would overlay that serves an audience 10 x the size of the physical. We saw that really two really good examples. Red Hat Summit in Boston, small event, couple thousand people served tens of thousands, you know, online. Second was Google Cloud next v i p event in, in New York City. >>Everything else was, was, was, was virtual. You know, even examples of our prediction of metaverse like immersion have popped up and, and and, and you know, other companies are doing roadshow as we predicted like a lot of companies are doing it. You're seeing that as a major trend where organizations are going with their sales teams out into the regions and doing a little belly to belly action as opposed to the big giant event. That's a definitely a, a trend that we're seeing. So in reviewing this prediction, the grade we gave ourselves is, you know, maybe a bit unfair, it should be, you could argue for a higher grade, but the, but the organization still haven't figured it out. They have hybrid experiences but they generally do a really poor job of leveraging the afterglow and of event of an event. It still tends to be one and done, let's move on to the next event or the next city. >>Let the sales team pick up the pieces if they were paying attention. So because of that, we're only taking a B plus on this one. Okay, so that's the review of last year's predictions. You know, overall if you average out our grade on the 10 predictions that come out to a b plus, I dunno why we can't seem to get that elusive a, but we're gonna keep trying our friends at E T R and we are starting to look at the data for 2023 from the surveys and all the work that we've done on the cube and our, our analysis and we're gonna put together our predictions. We've had literally hundreds of inbounds from PR pros pitching us. We've got this huge thick folder that we've started to review with our yellow highlighter. And our plan is to review it this month, take a look at all the data, get some ideas from the inbounds and then the e t R of January surveys in the field. >>It's probably got a little over a thousand responses right now. You know, they'll get up to, you know, 1400 or so. And once we've digested all that, we're gonna go back and publish our predictions for 2023 sometime in January. So stay tuned for that. All right, we're gonna leave it there for today. You wanna thank Alex Myerson who's on production and he manages the podcast, Ken Schiffman as well out of our, our Boston studio. I gotta really heartfelt thank you to Kristen Martin and Cheryl Knight and their team. They helped get the word out on social and in our newsletters. Rob Ho is our editor in chief over at Silicon Angle who does some great editing for us. Thank you all. Remember all these podcasts are available or all these episodes are available is podcasts. Wherever you listen, just all you do Search Breaking analysis podcast, really getting some great traction there. Appreciate you guys subscribing. I published each week on wikibon.com, silicon angle.com or you can email me directly at david dot valante silicon angle.com or dm me Dante, or you can comment on my LinkedIn post. And please check out ETR AI for the very best survey data in the enterprise tech business. Some awesome stuff in there. This is Dante for the Cube Insights powered by etr. Thanks for watching and we'll see you next time on breaking analysis.

foreign welcome back to re invent 2022 we're wrapping up four days well one evening and three solid days wall-to-wall of cube coverage I'm Dave vellante John furrier's birthday is today he's on a plane to London to go see his nephew get married his his great Sister Janet awesome family the furriers uh spanning the globe and uh and John I know you wanted to be here you're watching in Newark or you were waiting to uh to get in the plane so all the best to you happy birthday one year the Amazon PR people brought a cake out to celebrate John's birthday because he's always here at AWS re invented his birthday so I'm really pleased to have two really special guests uh former Cube host Cube Alum great wikibon contributor Stu miniman now with red hat still good to see you again great to be here Dave yeah I was here for that cake uh the twitterverse uh was uh really helping to celebrate John's birthday today and uh you know always great to be here with you and then with this you know Awesome event this week and friend of the cube of many time Cube often Cube contributor as here's a cube analyst this week as his own consultancy sarbj johal great to see you thanks for coming on good to see you Dave uh great to see you stu I'm always happy to participate in these discussions and um I enjoy the discussion every time so this is kind of cool because you know usually the last day is a getaway day and this is a getaway day but this place is still packed I mean it's I mean yeah it's definitely lighter you can at least walk and not get slammed but I subjit I'm going to start with you I I wanted to have you as the the tail end here because cause you participated in the analyst sessions you've been watching this event from from the first moment and now you've got four days of the Kool-Aid injection but you're also talking to customers developers Partners the ecosystem where do you want to go what's your big takeaways I think big takeaways that Amazon sort of innovation machine is chugging along they are I was listening to some of the accessions and when I was back to my room at nine so they're filling the holes in some areas but in some areas they're moving forward there's a lot to fix still it doesn't seem like that it seems like we are done with the cloud or The Innovation is done now we are building at the millisecond level so where do you go next there's a lot of room to grow on the storage side on the network side uh the improvements we need and and also making sure that the software which is you know which fits the hardware like there's a specialized software um sorry specialized hardware for certain software you know so there was a lot of talk around that and I attended some of those sessions where I asked the questions around like we have a specialized database for each kind of workload specialized processes processors for each kind of workload yeah the graviton section and actually the the one interesting before I forget that the arbitration was I asked that like why there are so many so many databases and IRS for the egress costs and all that stuff can you are you guys thinking about reducing that you know um the answer was no egress cost is not a big big sort of uh um show stopper for many of the customers but but the from all that sort of little discussion with with the folks sitting who build these products over there was that the plethora of choice is given to the customers to to make them feel that there's no vendor lock-in so if you are using some open source you know um soft software it can be on the you know platform side or can be database side you have database site you have that option at AWS so this is a lot there because I always thought that that AWS is the mother of all lock-ins but it's got an ecosystem and we're going to talk about exactly we'll talk about Stu what's working within AWS when you talk to customers and where are the challenges yeah I I got a comment on open source Dave of course there because I mean look we criticized to Amazon for years about their lack of contribution they've gotten better they're doing more in open source but is Amazon the mother of all lock-ins many times absolutely there's certain people inside Amazon I'm saying you know many of us talk Cloud native they're like well let's do Amazon native which means you're like full stack is things from Amazon and do things the way that we want to do things and you know I talk to a lot of customers they use more than one Cloud Dave and therefore certain things absolutely I want to Leverage The Innovation that Amazon has brought I do think we're past building all the main building blocks in many ways we are like in day two yes Amazon is fanatically customer focused and will always stay that way but you know there wasn't anything that jumped out at me last year or this year that was like Wow new category whole new way of thinking about something we're in a vocals last year Dave said you know we have over 200 services and if we listen to you the customer we'd have over two thousand his session this week actually got some great buzz from my friends in the serverless ecosystem they love some of the things tying together we're using data the next flywheel that we're going to see for the next 10 years Amazon's at the center of the cloud ecosystem in the IT world so you know there's a lot of good things here and to your point Dave the ecosystem one of the things I always look at is you know was there a booth that they're all going to be crying in their beer after Amazon made an announcement there was not a tech vendor that I saw this week that was like oh gosh there was an announcement and all of a sudden our business is gone where I did hear some rumbling is Amazon might be the next GSI to really move forward and we've seen all the gsis pushing really deep into supporting Cloud bringing workloads to the cloud and there's a little bit of rumbling as to that balance between what Amazon will do and their uh their go to market so a couple things so I think I think we all agree that a lot of the the announcements here today were taping seams right I call it and as it relates to the mother of all lock-in the reason why I say that it's it's obviously very much a pejorative compare Oracle company you know really well with Amazon's lock-in for Amazon's lock-in is about bringing this ecosystem together so that you actually have Choice Within the the house so you don't have to leave you know there's a there's a lot to eat at the table yeah you look at oracle's ecosystem it's like yeah you know oracle is oracle's ecosystem so so that is how I think they do lock in customers by incenting them not to leave because there's so much Choice Dave I agree with you a thousand I mean I'm here I'm a I'm a good partner of AWS and all of the partners here want to be successful with Amazon and Amazon is open to that it's not our way or get out which Oracle tries how much do you extract from the overall I.T budget you know are you a YouTube where you give the people that help you create a large sum of the money YouTube hasn't been all that profitable Amazon I think is doing a good balance of the ecosystem makes money you know we used to talk Dave about you know how much dollars does VMware make versus there um I think you know Amazon is a much bigger you know VMware 2.0 we used to think talk about all the time that VMware for every dollar spent on VMware licenses 15 or or 12 or 20 were spent in the ecosystem I would think the ratio is even higher here sarbji and an Oracle I would say it's I don't know yeah actually 1 to 0.5 maybe I don't know but I want to pick on your discussion about the the ecosystem the the partner ecosystem is so it's it's robust strong because it's wider I was I was not saying that there's no lock-in with with Amazon right AWS there's lock-in there's lock-in with everything there's lock-in with open source as well but but the point is that they're they're the the circle is so big you don't feel like locked in but they're playing smart as well they're bringing in the software the the platforms from the open source they're picking up those packages and saying we'll bring it in and cater that to you through AWS make it better perform better and also throw in their custom chips on top of that hey this MySQL runs better here so like what do you do I said oh Oracle because it's oracle's product if you will right so they are I think think they're filing or not slenders from their go to market strategy from their engineering and they listen to they're listening to customers like very closely and that has sort of side effects as well listening to customers creates a sprawl of services they have so many services and I criticized them last year for calling everything a new service I said don't call it a new service it's a feature of a existing service sure a lot of features a lot of features this is egress our egress costs a real problem or is it just the the on-prem guys picking at the the scab I mean what do you hear from customers so I mean Dave you know I I look at what Corey Quinn talks about all the time and Amazon charges on that are more expensive than any other Cloud the cloud providers and partly because Amazon is you know probably not a word they'd use they are dominant when it comes to the infrastructure space and therefore they do want to make it a little bit harder to do that they can get away with it um because um yeah you know we've seen some of the cloud providers have special Partnerships where you can actually you know leave and you're not going to be charged and Amazon they've been a little bit more flexible but absolutely I've heard customers say that they wish some good tunning and tongue-in-cheek stuff what else you got we lay it on us so do our players okay this year I think the focus was on the upside it's shifting gradually this was more focused on offside there were less talk of of developers from the main stage from from all sort of quadrants if you will from all Keynotes right so even Werner this morning he had a little bit for he was talking about he he was talking he he's job is to Rally up the builders right yeah so he talks about the go build right AWS pipes I thought was kind of cool then I said like I'm making glue easier I thought that was good you know I know some folks don't use that I I couldn't attend the whole session but but I heard in between right so it is really adopt or die you know I am Cloud Pro for last you know 10 years and I think it's the best model for a technology consumption right um because of economies of scale but more importantly because of division of labor because of specialization because you can't afford to hire the best security people the best you know the arm chip designers uh you can't you know there's one actually I came up with a bumper sticker you guys talked about bumper sticker I came up with that like last couple of weeks The Innovation favorite scale they have scale they have Innovation so that's where the Innovation is and it's it's not there again they actually say the market sets the price Market you as a customer don't set the price the vendor doesn't set the price Market sets the price so if somebody's complaining about their margins or egress and all that I think that's BS um yeah I I have a few more notes on the the partner if you you concur yeah Dave you know with just coming back to some of this commentary about like can Amazon actually enable something we used to call like Community clouds uh your companies like you know Goldman and NASDAQ and the like where Industries will actually be able to share data uh and you know expand the usage and you know Amazon's going to help drive that API economy forward some so it's good to see those things because you know we all know you know all of us are smarter than just any uh single company together so again some of that's open source but some of that is you know I think Amazon is is you know allowing Innovation to thrive I think the word you're looking for is super cloud there well yeah I mean it it's uh Dave if you want to go there with the super cloud because you know there's a metaphor for exactly what you described NASDAQ Goldman Sachs we you know and and you know a number of other companies that are few weeks at the Berkeley Sky Computing paper yeah you know that's a former supercloud Dave Linthicum calls it metacloud I'm not really careful I mean you know I go back to the the challenge we've been you know working at for a decade is the distributed architecture you know if you talk about AI architectures you know what lives in the cloud what lives at the edge where do we train things where do we do inferences um locations should matter a lot less Amazon you know I I didn't hear a lot about it this show but when they came out with like local zones and oh my gosh out you know all the things that Amazon is building to push out to the edge and also enabling that technology and software and the partner ecosystem helps expand that and Pull It in it's no longer you know Dave it was Hotel California all of the data eventually is going to end up in the public cloud and lock it in it's like I don't think that's going to be the case we know that there will be so much data out at the edge Amazon absolutely is super important um there some of those examples we're giving it's not necessarily multi-cloud but there's collaboration happening like in the healthcare world you know universities and hospitals can all share what they're doing uh regardless of you know where they live well Stephen Armstrong in the analyst session did say that you know we're going to talk about multi-cloud we're not going to lead with it necessarily but we are going to actually talk about it and that's different to your points too than in the fullness of time all the data will be in the cloud that's a new narrative but go ahead yeah actually Amazon is a leader in the cloud so if they push the cloud even if they don't say AWS or Amazon with it they benefit from it right and and the narrative is that way there's the proof is there right so again Innovation favorite scale there are chips which are being made for high scale their software being tweaked for high scale you as a Bank of America or for the Chrysler as a typical Enterprise you cannot afford to do those things in-house what cloud providers can I'm not saying just AWS Google cloud is there Azure guys are there and few others who are behind them and and you guys are there as well so IBM has IBM by the way congratulations to your red hat I know but IBM won the award um right you know very good partner and yeah but yeah people are dragging their feet people usually do on the change and they are in denial denial they they drag their feet and they came in IBM director feed the cave Den Dell drag their feed the cave in yeah you mean by Dragon vs cloud deniers cloud deniers right so server Huggers I call them but they they actually are sitting in Amazon Cloud Marketplace everybody is buying stuff from there the marketplace is the new model OKAY Amazon created the marketplace for b2c they are leading the marketplace of B2B as well on the technology side and other people are copying it so there are multiple marketplaces now so now actually it's like if you're in in a mobile app development there are two main platforms Android and Apple you first write the application for Apple right then for Android hex same here as a technology provider as and I I and and I actually you put your stuff to AWS first then you go anywhere else yeah they are later yeah the Enterprise app store is what we've wanted for a long time the question is is Amazon alone the Enterprise app store or are they partner of a of a larger portfolio because there's a lot of SAS companies out there uh that that play into yeah what we need well and this is what you're talking about the future but I just want to make a point about the past you talking about dragging their feet because the Cube's been following this and Stu you remember this in 2013 IBM actually you know got in a big fight with with Amazon over the CIA deal you know and it all became public judge wheeler eviscerated you know IBM and it ended up IBM ended up buying you know soft layer and then we know what happened there and it Joe Tucci thought the cloud was Mosey right so it's just amazing to see we have booksellers you know VMware called them books I wasn't not all of them are like talking about how great Partnerships they are it's amazing like you said sub GC and IBM uh with the the GSI you know Partnership of the year but what you guys were just talking about was the future and that's what I wanted to get to is because you know Amazon's been leading the way I I was listening to Werner this morning and that just reminded me of back in the days when we used to listen to IBM educate us give us a master class on system design and decoupled systems and and IO and everything else now Amazon is you know the master educator and it got me thinking how long will that last you know will they go the way of you know the other you know incumbents will they be disrupted or will they you know keep innovating maybe it's going to take 10 or 20 years I don't know yeah I mean Dave you actually you did some research I believe it was a year or so ago yeah but what will stop Amazon and the one thing that worries me a little bit um is the two Pizza teams when you have over 202 Pizza teams the amount of things that each one of those groups needs to take care of was more than any human could take care of people burn out they run out of people how many amazonians only last two or three years and then leave because it is tough I bumped into plenty of friends of mine that have been you know six ten years at Amazon and love it but it is a tough culture and they are driving werner's keynote I thought did look to from a product standpoint you could say tape over some of the seams some of those solutions to bring Beyond just a single product and bring them together and leverage data so there are some signs that they might be able to get past some of those limitations but I still worry structurally culturally there could be some challenges for Amazon to keep the momentum going especially with the global economic impact that we are likely to see in the next year bring us home I think the future side like we could talk about the vendors all day right to serve the community out there I think we should talk about how what's the future of technology consumption from the consumer side so from the supplier side just a quick note I think the only danger AWS has has that that you know Fred's going after them you know too big you know like we will break you up and that can cause some disruption there other than that I think they they have some more steam to go for a few more years at least before we start thinking about like oh this thing is falling apart or anything like that so they have a lot more they have momentum and it's continuing so okay from the I think game is on retail by the way is going to get disrupted before AWS yeah go ahead from the buyer's side I think um the the future of the sort of Technology consumption is based on the paper uh use and they actually are turning all their services to uh they are sort of becoming serverless behind the scenes right all analytics service they had one service left they they did that this year so every service is serverless so that means you pay exactly for the amount you use the compute the iops the the storage so all these three layers of course Network we talked about the egress stuff and that's a problem there because of the network design mainly because Google has a flatter design and they have lower cost so so they are actually squeezing the their their designing this their services in a way that you don't waste any resources as a buyer so for example very simple example when early earlier In This Cloud you will get a VM right in Cloud that's how we started so and you can get 20 use 20 percent of the VM 80 is getting wasted that's not happening now that that has been reduced to the most extent so now your VM grows as you grow the usage and if you go higher than the tier you picked they will charge you otherwise they will not charge you extra so that's why there's still a lot of instances like many different types you have to pick one I think the future is that those instances will go away the the instance will be formed for you on the fly so that is the future serverless all right give us bumper sticker Stu and then Serb G I'll give you my quick one and then we'll wrap yeah so just Dave to play off of sharp G and to wrap it up you actually wrote about it on your preview post for here uh serverless we're talking about how developers think about things um and you know Amazon in many ways you know is the new default server uh you know for the cloud um and containerization fits into the whole serverless Paradigm uh it's the space that I live in uh you know every day here and you know I was happy to see the last few years serverless and containers there's a blurring a line and you know subject we're still going to see VMS for a long time yeah yeah we will see that so give us give us your book Instagram my number six is innovation favorite scale that's my bumper sticker and and Amazon has that but also I I want everybody else to like the viewers to take a look at the the Google Cloud as well as well as IBM with others like maybe you have a better price to Performance there for certain workloads and by the way one vendor cannot do it alone we know that for sure the market is so big there's a lot of room for uh Red Hats of the world and and and Microsoft's the world to innovate so keep an eye on them they we need the competition actually and that's why competition Will Keep Us to a place where Market sets the price one vendor doesn't so the only only danger is if if AWS is a monopoly then I will be worried I think ecosystems are the Hallmark of a great Cloud company and Amazon's got the the biggest and baddest ecosystem and I think the other thing to watch for is Industries building on top of the cloud you mentioned the Goldman Sachs NASDAQ Capital One and Warner media these all these industries are building their own clouds and that's where the real money is going to be made in the latter half of the 2020s all right we're a wrap this is Dave Valente I want to first of all thank thanks to our great sponsors AWS for for having us here this is our 10th year at the cube AMD you know sponsoring as well the the the cube here Accenture sponsor to third set upstairs upstairs on the fifth floor all the ecosystem partners that came on the cube this week and supported our mission for free content our content is always free we try to give more to the community and we we take back so go to thecube.net and you'll see all these videos go to siliconangle com for all the news wikibon.com I publish weekly a breaking analysis series I want to thank our amazing crew here you guys we have probably 30 35 people unbelievable our awesome last session John Walls uh Paul Gillen Lisa Martin Savannah Peterson John Furrier who's on a plane we appreciate Andrew and Leonard in our ear and all of our our crew Palo Alto Boston and across the country thank you so much really appreciate it all right we are a wrap AWS re invent 2022 we'll see you in two weeks we'll see you two weeks at Palo Alto ignite back here in Vegas thanks for watching thecube the leader in Enterprise and emerging Tech coverage [Music]

(soft music) >> Welcome back to Sin City, guys and girls we're glad you're with us. You've been watching theCUBE all week, we know that. This is theCUBE's live coverage of AWS re:Invent 22, from the Venetian Expo Center where there are tens of thousands of people, and this event if you know it, covers the entire strip. There are over 55,000 people here, hundreds of thousands online. Dave, this has been a fantastic show. It is clear everyone's back. We're hearing phenomenal stories from AWS and it's ecosystem. We got a great customer story coming up next, featured on the main stage. >> Yeah, I mean, you know, post pandemic, you start to think about, okay, how are things changing? And one of the things that we heard from Adam Selipsky, was, we're going beyond digital transformation into business transformation. Okay. That can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. I have a sense of what it means. And I think this next interview really talks to business transformation beyond digital transformation, beyond the IT. >> Excellent. We've got two guests. One of them is an alumni, Scott Mullins joins us, GM, AWS Worldwide Financial Services, and Brad Peterson is here, the EVP, CIO and CTO of NASDAQ. Welcome guys. Great to have you. >> Hey guys. >> Hey guys. Thanks for having us. >> Yeah >> Brad, talk a little bit, there was an announcement with NASDAQ and AWS last year, a year ago, about how they're partnering to transform capital markets. It was a highlight of last year. Remind us what you talked about and what's gone on since then. >> Yeah, so, we are very excited. I work with Adena Friedman, she's my boss, CEO of NASDAQ, and she was on stage with Adam for his first Keynote as CEO of AWS. And we made the commitment that we were going to move our markets to the Cloud. And we've been a long time customer of AWS and everyone said, you know the last piece, the last frontier to be moved was the actual matching where all the messages, the quotes get matched together to become confirmed orders. So that was what we committed to less than a year ago. And we said we were going to move one of our options markets. In the US, we have six of them. And options markets are the most challenging, they're the most high volume and high performance. So we said, let's start with something really challenging and prove we can do it together with AWS. So we committed to that. >> And? Results so far? >> So, I can sit here and say that November 7th so we are live, we're in production and the MRX Exchange is called Mercury, so we shorten it for MRX, we like acronyms in technology. And so, we started with a phased launch of symbols, so you kind of allow yourself to make sure you have all the functionality working then you add some volume on it, and we are going to complete the conversion on Monday. So we are all good so far. And I have some results I can share, but maybe Scott, if you want to talk about why we did that together. >> Yeah. >> And what we've done together over many years. >> Right. You know, Brian, I think it's a natural extension of our relationship, right? You know, you look at the 12 year relationship that AWS and NASDAQ have had together, it's just the next step, in the way that we're going to help the industry transform itself. And so not just NASDAQ's business transformation for itself, but really a blueprint and a template for the entire capital markets industry. And so many times people will ask me, who's using Cloud well? Who's doing well in the Cloud? And NASDAQ is an easy example to point to, of somebody who's truly taking advantage of these capabilities because the Cloud isn't a place, it's a set of capabilities. And so, this is a shining example of how to use these capabilities to actually deliver real business benefit, not just to to your organization, but I think the really exciting part is the market technology piece of how you're serving other exchanges. >> So last year before re:Invent, we said, and it's obvious within the tech ecosystem, that technology companies are building on top of the Cloud. We said, the big trend that we see in the 2020s is that, you know, consumers of IT, historically, your customers are going to start taking their stacks, their software, their data, their services and sassifying, putting it on the Cloud and delivering new services to customers. So when we saw Adena on stage last year, we called it by the way, we called it Super Cloud. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Some people liked the term but I love it. And so yeah, Super Cloud. So when we saw Adena on stage, we said that's a great example. We've seen Capital One doing some similar things, we've had some conversations with US West, it's happening, right? So talk about how you actually do that. I mean, because you've got a lot, you've got a big on-premises stay, are you connecting to that? Is it all in the Cloud? Paint a picture of what the architecture looks like? >> Yeah. And there's, so you started with the business transformation, so I like that. >> Yeah. >> And the Super Cloud designation, what we are is, we own and operate exchanges in the United States and in Europe and in Canada. So we have our own markets that we're looking at modernizing. So we look at this, as a modernization of the capital market infrastructure, but we happen to be the leading technology provider for other markets around the world. So you either build your own or you source from us. And we're by far the leading provider. So a lot of our customers said, how about if you go first? It's kind of like Mikey, you know, give it to Mikey, let him try it. >> See if Mikey likes it. >> Yeah. >> Penguin off the iceberg thing. >> Yeah. And so what we did is we said, to make this easy for our customers, so you want to ask your customers, you want to figure out how you can do it so that you don't disrupt their business. So we took the Edge Compute that was announced a few years ago, Amazon Outposts, and we were one of their early customers. So we started immediately to innovate with, jointly innovate with Amazon. And we said, this looks interesting for us. So we extended the region into our Carteret data center in Northern New Jersey, which gave us all the services that we know and love from Amazon. So our technical operations team has the same tools and services but then, we're able to connect because in the markets what we're doing is we need to connect fairly. So we need to ensure that you still have that fairness element. So by bringing it into our building and extending the Edge Compute platform, the AWS Outpost into Carteret, that allowed us to also talk very succinctly with our regulators. It's a familiar territory, it's all buttoned up. And that simplified the conversion conversation with the regulators. It simplified it with our customers. And then it was up to us to then deliver time and performance >> Because you had alternatives. You could have taken a more mature kind of on-prem legacy stack, figured out how to bolt that in, you know, less cloudy. So why did you choose Outposts? I am curious. >> Well, Outposts looked like when it was announced, that it was really about extending territory, so we had our customers in mind, our global customers, and they don't always have an AWS region in country. So a lot of you think about a regulator, they're going to say, well where is this region located? So finally we saw this ability to grow the Cloud geographically. And of course we're in Sweden, so we we work with the AWS region in Stockholm, but not every country has a region yet. >> And we're working as fast as we can. - Yes, you are. >> Building in every single location around the planet. >> You're doing a good job. >> So, we saw it as an investment that Amazon had to grow the geographic footprint and we have customers in many smaller countries that don't have a region today. So maybe talk a little bit about what you guys had in mind and it's a multi-industry trend that the Edge Compute has four or five industries that you can say, this really makes a lot of sense to extend the Cloud. >> And David, you said it earlier, there's a trend of ecosystems that are coming onto the Cloud. This is our opportunity to bring the Cloud to an ecosystem, to an existing ecosystem. And if you think about NASDAQ's data center in Carteret, there's an ecosystem of NASDAQ's clients there that are there to be with NASDAQ. And so, it was actually much easier for us as we worked together over a really a four year period, thinking about this and how to make this technological transition, to actually bring the capabilities to that ecosystem, rather than trying to bring the ecosystem to AWS in one of our public regions. And so, that's been our philosophy with Outpost all along. It's actually extending our capabilities that our customers know and love into any environment that they need to be able to use that in. And so to Brad's point about servicing other markets in different countries around the world, it actually gives us that ability to do that very quickly, very nimbly and very succinctly and successfully. >> Did you guys write a working backwards document for this initiative? >> We did. >> Yeah, we actually did. So to be, this is one of the fully exercised. We have a couple of... So by the way, Scott used to work at NASDAQ and we have a number of people who have gone from NASDAQ data to AWS, and from AWS to NASDAQ. So we have adopted, that's one of the things that we think is an effective way to really clarify what you're trying to accomplish with a project. So I know you're a little bit kidding on that, but we did. >> No, I was close. Because I want to go to the like, where are we in the milestone? And take us through kind of what we can expect going forward now that we've worked backwards. >> Yep, we did. >> We did. And look, I think from a milestone perspective, as you heard Brad say, we're very excited that we've stood up MRX in production. Having worked at NASDAQ myself, when you make a change and when you stand up a market that's always a moment where you're working with your community, with your clients and you've got a market-wide call that you're working and you're wanting to make sure that everything goes smoothly. And so, when that call went smoothly and that transition went smoothly I know you were very happy, and in AWS, we were also very happy as well that we hit that milestone within the timeframe that Adena set. And that was very important I know to you. >> Yeah. >> And for us as well. >> Yeah. And our commitment, so the time base of this one was by the end of 2022. So November 7th, checked. We got that one done. >> That's awesome. >> The other one is we said, we wanted the performance to be as good or better than our current platform that we have. And we were putting a new version of our derivative or options software onto this platform. We had confidence because we already rolled it to one market in the US then we rolled it earlier this year and that was last year. And we rolled it to our nordic derivatives market. And we saw really good customer feedback. So we had confidence in our software was going to run. Now we had to marry that up with the Outpost platform and we said we really want to achieve as good or better performance and we achieved better performance, so that's noticeable by our customers. And that one was the biggest question. I think our customers understand when we set a date, we test them with them. We have our national test facility that they can test in. But really the big question was how is it going to perform? And that was, I think one of the biggest proof points that we're really proud about, jointly together. And it took both, it took both of us to really innovate and get the platform right, and we did a number of iterations. We're never done. >> Right. >> But we have a final result that says it is better. >> Well, congratulations. - Thank you. >> It sounds like you guys have done a tremendous job. What can we expect in 2023? From NASDAQ and AWS? Any little nuggets you can share? >> Well, we just came from the partner, the partner Keynote with Adam and Ruba and we had another colleague on stage, so Nick Ciubotariu, so he is actually someone who brought digital assets and cryptocurrencies onto the Venmo, PayPal platform. He joined NASDAQ about a year ago and we announced that in our marketplace, the Amazon marketplace, we are going to offer digital custody, digital assets custody solution. So that is certainly going to be something we're excited about in 2023. >> I know we got to go, but I love this story because it fits so great at the Super cloud but we've learned so much from Amazon over the years. Two pieces of teams, we talked about working backwards, customer obsession, but this is a story of NASDAQ pointing its internal capabilities externally. We're already on that journey and then, bringing that to the Cloud. Very powerful story. I wonder what's next in this, because we learn a lot and we, it's like the NFL, we copy it. I think about product market fit. You think about scientific, you know, go to market and seeing that applied to the financial services industry and obviously other industries, it's really exciting to see. So congratulations. >> No, thank you. And look, I think it's an example of Invent and Simplify, that's another Amazon principle. And this is, I think a great example of inventing on behalf of an industry and then continually working to simplify the way that the industry works with all of us. >> Last question and we've got only 30 seconds left. Brad, I'm going to direct it to you. If you had the opportunity to take over the NASDAQ sign in Times Square and say a phrase that summarizes what NASDAQ and AWS are doing together, what would it say? >> Oh, and I think I'm going to put that up on Monday. So we're going to close the market together and it's going to say, "Modernizing the capital market's infrastructure together." >> Very cool. >> Excellent. Drop the mic. Guys, this was fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate you joining us on the show, sharing your insights and what NASDAQ and AWS are doing. We're going to have to keep watching this. You're going to have to come back next year. >> All right. >> For our guests and for Dave Vellante, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (soft music)

(calming music) >> Hello and welcome back to fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. We're here at AWS re:Invent day three of our scintillating coverage here on theCUBE. I'm Savannah Peterson, joined by John Furrier. John Day three energy's high. How you feeling? >> I dunno, it's day two, day three, day four. It feels like day four, but again, we're back. >> Who's counting? >> Three pandemic levels in terms of 50,000 plus people? Hallways are packed. I got pictures. People don't believe it. It's actually happening. Then people are back. So, you know, and then the economy is a big question too and it's still, people are here, they're still building on the cloud and cost is a big thing. This next segment's going to be really important. I'm looking forward to this next segment. >> Yeah, me too. Without further ado let's welcome our guests for this segment. We have Brad from AMD and we have Rahul from you are, well you do a variety of different things. We'll start with CloudFix for this segment, but we could we could talk about your multiple hats all day long. Welcome to the show, gentlemen. How you doing? Brad how does it feel? We love seeing your logo above our stage here. >> Oh look, we love this. And talking about re:Invent last year, the energy this year compared to last year is so much bigger. We love it. We're excited to be here. >> Yeah, that's awesome. Rahul, how are you feeling? >> Excellent, I mean, I think this is my eighth or ninth re:Invent at this point and it's been fabulous. I think the, the crowd, the engagement, it's awesome. >> You wouldn't know there's a looming recession if you look at the activity but yet still the reality is here we had an analyst on yesterday, we were talking about spend more in the cloud, save more. So that you can still use the cloud and there's a lot of right sizing, I call you got to turn the lights off before you go to bed. Kind of be more efficient with your infrastructure as a theme. This re:Invent is a lot more about that now. Before it's about the glory days. Oh yeah, keep building, now with a little bit of pressure. This is the conversation. >> Exactly and I think most companies are looking to figure out how to innovate their way out of this uncertainty that's kind of on everyone's head. And the only way to do it is to be able to be more efficient with whatever your existing spend is, take those savings and then apply them to innovating on new stuff. And that's the way to go about it at this point. >> I think it's such a hot topic, for everyone that we're talking about. I mean, total cost optimization figuring out ways to be more efficient. I know that that's a big part of your mission at CloudFix. So just in case the audience isn't versed, give us the pitch. >> Okay, so a little bit of background on this. So the other hat I wear is CTO of ESW Capital. We have over 150 enterprise software companies within the portfolio. And one of my jobs is also to manage and run about 40 to 45,000 AWS accounts of our own. >> Casual number, just a few, just a couple pocket change, no big deal. >> And like everyone else here in the audience, yeah we had a problem with our costs, just going out of control and as we were looking at a lot of the tools to help us kind of get more efficient one of the biggest issues was that while people give you a lot of recommendations recommendations are way too far from realized savings. And we were running through the challenge of how do you take recommendation and turn them into real savings and multiple different hurdles. The short story being, we had to create CloudFix to actually realize those savings. So we took AWS recommendations around cost, filtered them down to the ones that are completely non-disruptive in nature, implemented those as simple automations that everyone could just run and realize those savings right away. We then took those savings and then started applying them to innovating and doing new interesting things with that money. >> Is there a best practice in your mind that you see merging in this time? People start more focused on it. Is there a method or a purpose kind of best practice of how to approach cost optimization? >> I think one of the things that most people don't realize is that cost optimization is not a one and done thing. It is literally nonstop. Which means that, on one hand AWS is constantly creating new services. There are over a hundred thousand API at this point of time How to use them right, how to use them efficiently You also have a problem of choice. Developers are constantly discovering new services discovering new ways to utilize them. And they are behaving in ways that you had not anticipated before. So you have to stay on top of things all the time. And really the only way to kind of stay on top is to have automation that helps you stay on top of all of these things. So yeah, finding efficiencies, standardizing your practices about how you leverage these AWS services and then automating the governance and hygiene around how you utilize them is really the key >> Brad tell me what this means for AMD and what working with CloudFix and Rahul does for your customers. >> Well, the idea of efficiency and cost optimization is near and dear to our heart. We have the leading. >> It's near and dear to everyone's heart, right now. (group laughs) >> But we are the leaders in x86 price performance and density and power efficiency. So this is something that's actually part of our core culture. We've been doing this a long time and what's interesting is most companies don't understand how much more efficiency they can get out of their applications aside from just the choices they make in cloud. but that's the one thing, the message we're giving to everybody is choice matters very much when it comes to your cloud solutions and just deciding what type of instance types you choose can have a massive impact on your bottom line. And so we are excited to partner with CloudFix, they've got a great model for this and they make it very easier for our customers to help identify those areas. And then AMD can come in as well and then help provide additional insight into those applications what else they can squeeze out of it. So it's a great relationship. >> If I hear you correctly, then there's more choice for the customers, faster selection, so no bad choices means bad performance if they have a workload or an app that needs to run, is that where you you kind of get into the, is that where it is or more? >> Well, I mean from the AMD side right now, one of the things they do very quickly is they identify where the low hanging fruit is. So it's the thing about x86 compatibility, you can shift instance types instantly in most cases without any change to your environment at all. And CloudFix has an automated tool to do that. And that's one thing you can immediately have an impact on your cost without having to do any work at all. And customers love that. >> What's the alternative if this doesn't exist they have to go manually figure it out or it gets them in the face or they see the numbers don't work or what's the, if you don't have the tool to automate what's the customer's experience >> The alternative is that you actually have people look at every single instance of usage of resources and try and figure out how to do this. At cloud scale, that just doesn't make sense. You just can't. >> It's too many different options. >> Correct The reality is that your resources your human resources are literally your most expensive part of your budget. You want to leverage all the amazing people you have to do the amazing work. This is not amazing work. This is mundane. >> So you free up all the people time. >> Correct, you free up wasting their time and resources on doing something that's mundane, simple and should be automated, because that's the only way you scale. >> I think of you is like a little helper in the background helping me save money while I'm not thinking about it. It's like a good financial planner making you money since we're talking about the economy >> Pretty much, the other analogy that I give to all the technologists is this is like garbage collection. Like for most languages when you are coding, you have these new languages that do garbage collection for you. You don't do memory management and stuff where developers back in the day used to do that. Why do that when you can have technology do that in an automated manner for you in an optimal way. So just kind of freeing up your developer's time from doing this stuff that's mundane and it's a standard best practice. One of the things that we leverage AMD for, is they've helped us define the process of seamlessly migrating folks over to AMD based instances without any major disruptions or trying to minimize every aspect of disruption. So all the best practices are kind of borrowed from them, borrowed from AWS in most other cases. And we basically put them in the automation so that you don't ever have to worry about that stuff. >> Well you're getting so much data you have the opportunity to really streamline, I mean I love this, because you can look across industry, across verticals and behavior of what other folks are doing. Learn from that and apply that in the background to all your different customers. >> So how big is the company? How big is the team? >> So we have people in about 130 different countries. So we've completely been remote and global and actually the cloud has been one of the big enablers of that. >> That's awesome, 130 countries. >> And that's the best part of it. I was just telling Brad a short while ago that's allowed us to hire the best talent from across the world and they spend their time building new amazing products and new solutions instead of doing all this other mundane stuff. So we are big believers in automation not only for our world. And once our customers started asking us about or telling us about the same problem that they were having that's when we actually took what we had internally for our own purpose. We packaged it up as CloudFix and launched it last year at re:Invent. >> If the customers aren't thinking about automation then they're going to probably have struggle. They're going to probably struggle. I mean with more data coming in you see the data story here more data's coming in, more automation. And this year Brad price performance, I've heard the word price performance more this year at re:Invent than any other year I've heard it before, but this year, price performance not performance, price performance. So you're starting to hear that dialogue of squeeze, understand the use cases use the right specialized processor instance starting to see that evolve. >> Yeah and and there's so much to it. I mean, AMD right out of the box is any instance is 10% less expensive than the equivalent in the market right now on AWS. They do a great job of maximizing those products. We've got our Zen four core general processor family just released in November and it's going to be a beast. Yeah, we're very excited about it and AWS announced support for it so we're excited to see what they deliver there too. But price performance is so critical and again it's going back to the complexity of these environments. Giving some of these enterprises some help, to help them understand where they can get additional value. It goes well beyond the retail price. There's a lot more money to be shaved off the top just by spending time thinking about those applications. >> Yeah, absolutely. I love that you talked about collaboration we've been talking about community. I want to acknowledge the AWS super fans here, standing behind the stage. Rahul, I know that you are an AWS super fan. Can you tell us about that community and the program? >> Yeah, so I have been involved with AWS and building products with AWS since 2007. So it's kind of 15 years back when literally there were just a handful of API for launching EC2 instances and S3. >> Not the a hundred thousand that you mentioned earlier, my goodness, the scale. >> So I think I feel very privileged and honored that I have been part of that journey and have had to learn or have had the opportunity to learn both from successes and failures. And it's just my way of contributing back to that community. So we are part of the FinOps foundation as well, contributing through that. I run a podcast called AWS Insiders and a livestream called AWS Made Easy. So we are trying to make sure that people out there are able to understand how to leverage AWS in the best possible way. And yeah, we are there to help and hold their hand through it. >> Talk about the community, take a minute to explain to the audience watching the community around this cost optimization area. It's evolving, you mentioned FinOps. There's a whole large community developing, of practitioners and technologists coming together to look at this. What does this all mean? Talk about this community. >> So cost management within organizations is has evolved so drastically that organizations haven't really coped with it. Historically, you've had finance teams basically buy a lot of infrastructure, which is CapEx and the engineering teams had kind of an upper bound on what they would spend and where they would spend. Suddenly with cloud, that's kind of enabled so much innovation all of a sudden, everyone's realized it, five years was spent figuring out whether people should be on the cloud or not. That's no longer a question, right. Everyone needs to be in the cloud and I think that's a no-brainer. The problem there is that suddenly your operating model has moved from CapEx to OpEx. And organizations haven't really figured out how to deal with it. Finance now no longer has the controls to control and manage and forecast costs. Engineering has never had to deal with it in the past and suddenly now they have to figure out how to do all this finance stuff. And procurement finds itself in a very awkward way position because they are no longer doing these negotiations like they were doing in the past where it was okay right up front before you engage, you do these negotiations. Now it's kind of an ongoing thing and it's constantly changing. Like every day is different. >> And you got marketplace >> And you got marketplace. So it's a very complex situation and I think what we are trying to do with the FinOps foundation is try and take a lot of the best practices across organizations that have been doing this at least for the last 10, 15 years. Take all the learnings and failures and turn them into hopefully opinionated approaches that people can take organizations can take to navigate through this faster rather than kind of falter and then decide that oh, this is not for us. >> Yeah. It's a great model, it's a great model. >> I know it's time John, go ahead. >> All right so, we got a little bumper sticker exercise we used to say what's the bumper sticker for the show? We used to say that, now we're modernizing, we're saying if you had to do an Instagram reel right now, short hot take of what's going on at re:Invent this year with AMD or CloudFix or just in general what would be the sizzle reel, that would be on Instagram or TikTok, go. >> Look, I think when you're at re:Invent right now and number one the energy is fantastic. 23 is going to be a building year. We've got a lot of difficult times ahead financially but it's the time, the ones that come out of 23 stronger and more efficient, and cost optimize are going to survive the long run. So now's the time to build. >> Well done, Rahul let's go for it. >> Yeah, so like Brad said, cost and efficiencies at the top of everyone's mind. Stuff that's the low hanging fruit, easy, use automation. Apply your sources to do most of the innovation. Take the easiest part to realizing savings and operate as efficiently as you possibly can. I think that's got to be key. >> I think they nailed it. They both nailed it. Wow, well it was really good. >> I put you on our talent list of >> And alright, so we repeat them. Are you part of our host team? I love this, I absolutely love this Rahul we wish you the best at CloudFix and your 17 other jobs. And I am genuinely impressed. Do you sleep actually? Last question. >> I do, I do. I have an amazing team that really helps me with all of this. So yeah, thanks to them and thank you for having us here. >> It's been fantastic. >> It's our pleasure. And Brad, I'm delighted we get you both now and again on our next segment. Thank you for being here with us. >> Thank you very much. >> And thank you all for tuning in to our live coverage here at AWS re:Invent, in fabulous Sin City with John Furrier, my name's Savannah Peterson. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in high tech coverage. (calm music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey, friends. Welcome back to theCUBE's Live coverage of AWS re:Invent 2022 in Sin City. We are so excited to be here with tens of thousands of people. This is our third day of coverage, really the second full day of the show, but we started Monday night. You're going to get wall-to-wall coverage on theCUBE. You probably know that because you've been watching. I'm Lisa Martin and I'm here with Paul Gill. Paul, this is great. We have had such great conversations. We've been talking a lot about data. Every company is a data company, has to be a data company. We've been talking about developers, the developer experience, and how that's so influential in business decisions for businesses in every industry. >> And it's a key element of what's going on here on the floor at re:Invent is developers, the theme of developers just permeates the show. Lots and lots of boots here devoted to DevOps and Agile approaches. And certainly that is one of the things that the Cloud enables is your team to rethink the way they develop software, and that's what we're going to talk about next. >> That is what we're going to talk about next. We have two guests from Split. split.io is the URL if you want to check it out. Chris Demars joins us Developer advocate. Chris, great to have you and PaaS, VP of Engineering guys thank you so much for joining us on the program. >> Thank you for having us. >> Thank you for having us. >> Talk to us Pierre, we'll start with you. For the audience that might not know Split what does the company do? What's the value in it for customers? What are you all about? >> Sure. So in very simple terms, for those who are familiar, we do feature flags, feature management and experimentation. And essentially that two essential feature of the Agile transformation as you were mentioning and elements that really helps getting as much art we can from the team in term of productivity and in term of impact. And we basically help with those elements. And so that's a very short... >> 'Excellent, very nice. Chris, you were saying before we went live you do a lot of speaking at conferences, you're often in front of large audiences. As the developer advocate, what are some of the key requirements you're hearing from the developer community that organizations need to be encompassing? >> I think community is key. Like community is at the forefront of developer advocacy and developer relations. Like you want to go where the developers are and developers want to hear those stories in those personalized pieces of the puzzle. And when you're able to talk about modern Web and software technology and loop in product with that and still keep talking about those things and bring that to them, like that is on top of the list when it comes to developer advocacy and being embedded within the developer community. >> Lisa: Yeah. >> Tell us about feature flags, because I would assume that for our viewers who are not developers, who are not familiar with Agile technologies, the Agile approaches that might be, may be a new term, what are feature flags? How do you use them? >> Sure, I can start with that. So feature flag is a tool that you embed in your code that allows you to control the activation of your code essentially. And that's allows you to really validate things in a much better and solve way and also attach measurement to it. So, when you're writing your new feature, you just put essentially an if statement around it, if my feature flag is on, then I actually do all those things with soft, then I don't do any of those things and then within our platform, then you can control the activation. Do you want to turn it on for yourself just to try it out? Do you want your QA team to start validating it? Do you want 5% of your users 10%? And start seeing how they interacting with the product. That's what feature flag is. >> It's an amazing piece of any part of the stack, right? 'Cause I'm a Web accessibility and an UI specialist and being able to control the UI with a feature flag and being able to turn on and off those features based on percentage, locale, all of those things. It's very, very powerful. >> What are some of the scenarios which you would use feature flags? You have been testing? >> Yeah, yeah. We actually, you can imagine we use it for pretty much everything. So, as Chris was saying, in the front-end, everything you want to change, you basically can validate and attach measurements. So you can do AB testing, so you can see the impact, you can see if there is a change in performance. We use it also for a lot of backend services and changes and a lot of even infrastructure changes where we can control the traffic and where it goes. So we can validate that things are operating the way that they should before we fully done the market I think. >> 'It can be as small as, you know having a checkout button here and then writing an AB test and running an experiment and moving that checkout button somewhere else because then you can get conversion rates and see which one performed better to a certain amount of people and whatever performed better, that's the feature you would go with. >> Chris, talk about the value of the impact in feature flags for the developer from a developer experience perspective, a productivity perspective. >> So I think that having that feature and being able to write that UI, let's say that you have a checkout button, right? And there's specific content there's verbiage on that checkout button. And then let's say that another team within the organization wants to change that because the conversion is different. You can make those changes, still have it in production and then have it tested. So you don't have to cut specific branches or like test URLs to give to QA, you can do all of that behind that flag. And then once everything is good to go, push it out there and then based on those metrics and that data, see which one performs better and then that's the one that you would go with. >> One of the things with feature flag and it goes to like our main theme of 'What a Release, What a Relief' is that it gives autonomy to the teams and to the developers, enable them to move independently from others. So the deployment can go but their code is not activated until they decide to. And so, they are not impeding anybody else. It makes releases a lot safer, a lot simpler and it gives a lot more speed to everybody because when you do releases with five teams, 10 teams, pushing the code at the same time, you have such a high-risk of breaking something that it's you know... So it's a huge effort and it requires a lot of attention from a lot of people. If anything happens, all those teams needs to investigate. When you decouple all those things, the deployments are essentially not doing anything per se until every individual team activate those things independently. So if anything goes wrong, only them are affected and they don't have to depend on anybody else to get their thing out. So it really helps them making their life a lot safer and gives them a lot more speed because they have autonomy. >> So, why come to re:Invent? What do you get with this audience that you don't get elsewhere? >> Why to re:Invent? I think like re:Invent in the Cloud and AWS is a lot about getting speed to companies to build better product and faster. And essentially like the tool we provide and the technology and the platform we provide is really at the heart of that in itself. And so that's why we feel we have really great conversation with all the people on the floor. >> 'the people who have the right mindset for adopting... >> For me, it's very much community and networking, I love developer community and just community in general is my lifeblood. That's why I travel so much and I talk about these things and I'm with people and if it's not about the products, the story and the story is what gets people. That's why I love being here and being with my team and it's amazing. >> And what is that story? If you had an elevator pitch to give, what would you tell me? >> Hoo, if you were in a late release or deploy at night. I've been there, I'm sure you've been there, it doesn't matter what you're doing. We don't want be up until two, three in the morning doing those things, right? Our product helps alleviate those stresses. And you talking about accessibility, what I do, you know, a big piece of that are hidden impairments like anxiety will stress and anxiety go hand in hand and you want to alleviate that all across the board for everybody involved. >> As you see organizations shift Agile technologies and to parallel development and continuous release cycles, what are some of the biggest barriers they encounter in changing that mindset? >> Ooh, what do you think? >> It depends on where they are in the organization. The Agile transformation is a journey and it's also a change of mindset, it's a change of process. So depending on where they are then they might have some areas where they need a little bit more effort in those directions. What we see is that feature flag just the control of the layout. It's usually something that's fairly easily adopted. Thinking about measurement and attaching measurement to it is often something that requires a little bit more thinking. Like engineers are not really used to thinking about AB testing. It feels like more of a product management thing but AB testing is important also for performance informations like errors and all those things. There is a lot of risk management to be done. We do that through monitoring with APMs, but with feature flag and with Split, you can do that at a feature level and it really gives a great insight. And that's usually something that takes a little bit more digestion from the developers to really get their mind around it and get to it. But there's a lot of value to it. >> I'm looking at the split I/O website and I like the tagline shorten time from code to customer. As customers in any industry, as consumers, we have this expectation that we can get whatever we want anytime 24 by 7 and it's going to be a relevant experience. So it sounds to me like from a speed perspective, there's a lot of business impact that Split can help organizations make from getting releases faster, getting cut faster time-to-market, delivering what customers expect because we all expect real-time these days. Nobody wants to wait. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think that has to do with the going back to the decoupling of things that, you know... Not having to go through so many teams to have it tested and getting away from all the meetings about meetings to review the metrics, right? We all love meetings about meetings. >> No. (laughs loudly) >> Right, exactly, exactly. So being able to take that away and being able to push all of that stuff into production, getting it tested while it's in production and then being able to turn those features on, it's already there without having to do another deployment. And I think, like that's really powerful to me at least. >> Does your solution have value at the security level as well? >> Yes. So that's one of the particularity on the way we do things is like the way you control the feature flag, you have kind of two ways of doing it. Either the piece of code, the SDKs that we provide, the library we provide, you that you put in your code could come back to our platform and check. The way we do it is we send the rules back to the SDK so the whole evaluation is local. The evaluation is extremely fast and it's very secure because it's all happening within your environment. You never have to share any information, no PI whatsoever, contrary it to some of the other tools that you might find on the market. >> So the theme of the booth is 'What a Release, What a Relief'. What are some of the things that you're hearing as you're engaging folks on the show floor this week? >> Oh, what is Aura Photography and can I take a picture of. (everyone laughs loudly) I think just a lot of the stresses of... They're like the release cycle and you know, having to go through so many teams. I feel like that's a common theme that I've heard of. >> Yeah, we see a number of teams organization that still have like really big deployments with like a lot of teams basically coming together, pushing the code together, and there's a lot of pain in it. It's like, it's a huge effort by huge teams. You get 10, 20 people that have to have watch over it at always weird hours, and I think there is a lot of pain to that and that resonate a lot with people. And when we talk about monitoring at the future level, that also helps a lot. Like I was part of organizations before where we had a dedicated staff engineer to just monitor and fix performance on a daily basis because it's such a huge problem and it affects so much the performance of the company. And so essentially, you have this person that tries to look at is a performance being degraded today with the deployment of yesterday and what went out yesterday and you have so many things that went out. It's so hard to control. With what we provide, we tell you exactly which feature flag is responsible for the degradation. And so, you don't need that person to focus on that anymore. And you can focus on delivering value a lot better. >> I think it also might take away the need for extensive release notebooks and playbooks, right? 'Cause when you do bring all those teams together, it's certain people that are in that meeting and there's a PDF saying, all right, we check this off the list, we check this off the list. I think that might alleviate some of that overhead as well. >> Streamlining processes, process efficiencies, workforce productivity improvements, big impact. >> And that gets code quicker to the user. >> You talk about decoupling deploy from release. What do you mean by that? What's the value? >> So the deployment in my definition is essentially getting the code out to production. The release is activating the code in production. And often people do both of those things at the same time, right? But there's a huge risk when you do that because if anything goes wrong, now you need to revert everything which is not a short operation often and takes a lot of effort. And so now, if you can basically push your code to production but separate the activation of it, the release of it, then it goes a lot faster. It's a lot. You have a lot of autonomy and decoupling and if anything goes wrong, it's the click of a button and it's off. So like there's a lot of safety that comes with it and we know that any outages as a high cost for all the companies. So it's like, if you can reduce the outage to like five seconds... >> Right. >> It's a lot better than basically several hours. >> Can you talk about the value out of Split versus DIY and where are most of your customers in this process? Do they have a bunch of tools, a bunch of processes, a bunch of teams, and you're really helping them consolidate streamline? >> The one thing I hear a lot is we rolled our own AB testing and feature flagging system, but some of the issues I've seen and I've heard are that they don't have all those metrics or they have to work with a specific data team to get those metrics. And then you go back to having those meetings about meetings... >> Lisa: Dependencies. >> Right, you have a data team that's putting together a report that is then presented to you and then that's got to be presented to a stakeholder and then that stakeholder makes a decision whether to turn on feature A or feature B, right? Our product from my understanding is we have those metrics already built in and you can have that at your disposal. >> Yeah, the other thing I would add to that is like we see a number of people, they start on the feature flag journey just because they have a high risk thing that they need to put out. So they do the minimal thing to basically control it somehow, but it works only in one part of the stacks. They can't basically leverage it anywhere else and it's very limited in capability so that it just serve the purpose that was needed at that time. They don't have a dedicated team to manage it. So it just there, but it's very constrained and it's not supported effectively. The other thing is like for those companies is like they have a question to ask themselves. It's like do they want to invest resources in managing that kind of tool or is it not so core to their business that they want essentially to have vendor deal with it at a much lower price and they would have to invest resources for them to support it, and... >> Sounds like feature flags are kind of a team building. Have you have a team building dimension to them? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It takes a team for sure. >> Yeah, and then once you add like AB testing and the feature flag, it's the collaboration between product management and engineering. It can go even further. Like two executives like to basically, you know, view the impact, understand the impact. So it goes from the control to the risk management to the product and to the impact and measuring the flow of delivery and the communication around it. >> Here we are at re:Invent, so many thousands of people as I mentioned, we're on the second full-day of the event. What have you heard from AWS that really excites you about being in their ecosystem? Any news in particular that jumps out at you that really speaks to improving that developer experience as if we've heard a lot of focus on the developer? >> Chris: Yeah, I haven't heard much, have you? >> So, I arrived yesterday, I haven't followed yet all the announcement, I'm just like, >> there's so many- >> on the news, yeah, yeah. >> So I'm on the booth at the same time. >> I stopped counting at 15 during the Keynote this morning. >> Many of them just can't keep up, there's so much happening at one time's so much. >> This event is a can of content, can of news re:Invent. It is hard. But yesterday they were spent so much time talking about data and how... And I always think every company today has to be a data company, have to be a software company, we were just talking with Capital One and they think of themselves as a technology company that does banking. And sometimes, I'll talk with retailers that think of themselves as technology companies that do retail and they love that but that's what companies like Split have to enable these days. It's companies to become technology companies, deliver code faster to customer because the customer's demanding it. We're not going to want less stuff slower. >> Yeah, I mean it's so essential I think for me like I joined Split because of that premises. Like every company now is a software company and every company has really to compete in innovation. You know all those banks, Capital One like we see it a lot in the financial industry where our message resonates extremely strongly is really in a high-competitive environment and they have to be innovative and innovation comes when people have speed and autonomy. And if you basically provide that to teams and the tools to basically get some signals and some quick feedback loop, that's how you get innovation. Like you can't decide what to build but you can basically provide the tools to enable them to think about. >> Right, you can experiment more flexibly right, faster. >> And developers have to be empowered, right? >> Yes. >> I think that's the probably one of the number one messages I've heard at all the shows we've done this year. How influential the developer is in the direction of the business. >> Autonomy and empowerment are two main factors 'cause I'm a front end developer at heart and I want to work on cool stuff and we're doing cool stuff. Like we are doing cool stuff. We can't talk about all of it, right? But I think we're doing a lot of cool things at Split and I'm really stoked to be a part of the team and grow developer relations, grow developer advocacy and be along for the journey. >> Yeah, I love that. Last question for both of you, same question. If you had a bumper sticker and you were going to put it on a fancy shiny new car, car of your choice about Split, what would it say? Pierre I'll start with you then Chris. >> Bumper sticker. >> On the spot question. >> On the question, (everyone laughs happily) I mean the easy answer is probably written on my t-shirt. Like, you know, 'What a Release, What a Relief'. I think that the first step for teams is like, you can have a message that's very like even further, you know, the Agile transformation is a journey and I basically tell people, you need to first crawl, walk and run and I think the 'What a Release, What a Relief' is a good step to like getting to the working. And I think like that would be the first bumper sticker before I get to the further one about AP testing and innovative. >> Love it. Chris, what would your bumper sticker say? >> It would say Split software, feature flags for the masses. Hard stop. >> Mic drop. >> Done. >> Awesome guys, thank you so much for joining Paul and me on the program. It's been outstanding introducing Split to our audience, what you do, how you're impacting the developer experience and ultimately, the business and the end customer on the backend who just wants things to work. We appreciate your insights, we appreciate your time. >> Thanks so much for having us. >> Appreciate it. >> Our pleasure. For our guests and Paul Gillin, I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, which you know is the leader in live enterprise and emerging tech coverage. (bright upbeat music)

(bright upbeat music) >> Hey, good morning from Las Vegas. It's Lisa Martin and Paul Gillin here. We are on day three of AWS re:Invent. We started Monday night, we went all day yesterday, we are going all day today and all day tomorrow. The amount of content coming at you from theCUBE, great, interesting, fascinating conversations with AWS, its customers, its ecosystem partners is incredible. Paul, what's your take so far on re:Invent? We've been here two and a half days. >> Well, it's just a fire hose. Like I've said before, this morning's keynote was about was about ML, machine learning and AI, and I stopped counting at 15 new announcements during about a 90 minute keynote, it's just one thing after another. And that's the nature of re:Invent, you know? It's always a showcase for new stuff. And they talk about customers, you talk about customers, I love it when we have a chance to talk to customers on theCUBE as we are about to do. >> We are about to talk to one of the nation's leading digital banks, you know them well, Capital One. Please welcome, Lo Li, Managing Vice President of Customer Digital Experience and Payments. Thank you so much, Lo, for joining us. >> Why, thank you, I'm glad to be here. >> Talk a little bit about your role where it fits within the organization, what it encompasses? >> Sure, yeah. So, I lead the retail bank technology organization which is a form of, you know, we have teams that lead digital experiences for our consumers. We look after agent in-person experiences with their cafes in branches, our call centers and as well as of our MarTech and payments ecosystem. >> So you're new to Capital One, in the last less than a year, you know, we all know it, we love it, we know the tagline, what's in your wallet? I think we can all recite that. It's as I said in the opening, it's one of the nation's leading digital banks and technology is really core to its business strategy and delivering value to customers. What attracted you to Capital One and talk about it really as a digital bank that delivers all that value. >> Of course. Yeah, so, you know, I spent 20 years of my career in a digital space in retail, and fashion and hospitality. And that is what I love about IT and the industry that I'm in and what I do, which is bringing really great solutions and products to consumers and getting them excited about an experience and a brand. So I knew early on in my career I was attracted to really great brands and brands that wanted to innovate and disrupt the consumer space. So when Capital One gave me an opportunity, I couldn't be happier, right? This is an incredible bank, we have an incredible story, we're a young bank and yet we are very much on the leading edge of a digital bank experience. >> And you were in an interesting place because as we know retail banking is declining or at least bank branches are in decline. More and more people want to do their banking on their mobile apps or through their computers, particularly younger customers. And so you're having to manage all this, what are you doing? How are you tracking to these demographic changes accelerated by the pandemic and recreating the customer experience through multiple channels? >> Yeah, great question. We want to give our consumers an omnichannel experience irrespective of, you know, the few that still want to go into branches or perhaps they want to experience a cafe, and while there meet with one of our branch ambassadors to talk about their banking, we have consumers that want to go digital. So what we do is that we make sure that we're looking after the consumer holistically, irrespective of the channel. So whether they call into the call center because they need servicing or if they're physically present or they want to carry that on digitally, we make sure that we create super personalized custom experiences. We also work with a bunch of designers that are thinking through, you know, the life of a consumer now and their relationship to a bank. It is, to your point, it is no longer a branch, you know? That is a ubiquitous experience that we're by large knowing that we have to figure out and rethink. So, we're very lucky to have great designers that work with us and work on what is that experience that we want our consumers to have, from the pastries and the coffee, and the experience of being with an ambassador and how we can lead them through our iPads and digital experiences to continue to stay with us and for us to service them. >> You know, if we think about how much banking has changed especially in the last couple of years, when suddenly you couldn't get into a branch, even if you wanted to, it's amazing how we have this expectation that on my phone I can do any transaction I want in real time, I'm going to be able to see my balance, I can transfer money, I can make a payment. And we don't think about the technology on the back end but it's absolutely critical to powering that experience. >> Yeah. >> Talk about how you're doing that and is there customer feedback in that process? >> There is, but that's music to my ears by the way. The fact that you don't think about it tells me we're doing something really right, right? So first and foremost, we are super hypervigilant about security, that is top of mind, we are well managed. The cloud has enabled us to create these infrastructures that are highly secure, that are scalable and that allows us to really focus on innovation. So we use our mobile platform and our apps in that way, right? We know that this is a scalable, secure platform. We create really great products, we create very custom experiences for you that are relevant to you and your family and we create these digital products that are supposed to meet you where you are. >> But we certainly have, you know, this expectation that I'm going to get what I want, it's going to be relevant, it's going to be timely. If not, I'm going to pick up, not the phone, I'm going to go on social media and make a complaint. So from a brand reputation perspective, you guys, what you're doing is clearly going in the right direction. >> Yeah, yeah. Look, we take our bank voice and the voice of the customer extremely seriously. So, we have a really large infrastructure from a bank operations perspective. We have our bank voice agents that work with us that give us kind of really real-time feedback from our customers. You know, by the time you pick up the phone and call usually something has gone really wrong, right? So, we make sure that we stay lockstep with what our first level agents are hearing. Then we also look into our feedbacks, we have obviously ways to look into our mobile app. We look at all the reviews that we have and incorporate that into how we think about our product and how we invest and innovate on them. >> Before we turned on the cameras, you said an amazing thing. Capital One doesn't have any data centers anymore, doesn't have any mainframes anymore, it is fully in the cloud. Understanding that you weren't there in those old days but how does that change the way you think about new features, about technology, new technology developments for the customer when you don't have that legacy to drag along with you? >> It's incredible, right? Our cost efficiency, our production efficiency, how we think about going to the market now is really getting us to focus on the right parts of that product. We don't have to carry a lot of the technical debt, we don't carry that old infrastructure. So the way we develop, the way we design, the way we go to market is a lot faster than it ever was. >> Well, and the culture is there, the cultural mindset is there to be able to do that. I mean, if you think about who you compete with some of these institutions that have been around for a hundred years that also have to transform and digitize 'cause the customers expect it. That has to be a seamless process but their culture also has to be there because changing from being On-prem data centers to being completely in the cloud, it's a big change. >> Yeah, actually, you hit it, right? The cloud transformation is big, and hard and sticky. You got to move these workloads, you got to make 'em native, you got to deploy. But to your point, the harder part really is the culture, right? Because the cloud will then unleash productivity, it will unleash continuous improvement. It will bring product partners along the ride because they have to think differently about what they want to go to the market with, how they think about the cost of those units, how they think about cloud. So, you know, in my opinion, Capital One has done an incredible job bringing that entire, the entire organization along this cloud transformation including our culture, our processes, and our people. >> I know Capital One is proud of the work it's been doing in AI and machine learning. Can you talk about from the retail banking perspective, how is machine learning being applied to improve the customer experience? >> Yeah, well, you know, as you know, AI and machine learning is the heart of the bank, is the heart of Capital One. When we started in the early 90s, we were the only bank that was really trying to challenge how we use data to provide better products for our consumers, and that is ingrained in our DNA and everything that we do. So if you were to look at bank, we would start with, you know, from the time you are authenticating yourself, how we think about fraud and how do we capture bad actors, all the way to if you were to call into a call center, we use a lot of natural language processing models to make sure that we assess your sentiment, we give you the support that you need, and then of course, use that to learn more about how we service you. >> Interesting, I'm just wondering, do you think about Capital One as a technology company that does banking or a bank that is powered by technology? >> We are a technology company, and we happen to also have a bank. >> Lisa: I love that. What are some of the things that you've heard and seen at the show? Obviously, we're hearing numbers between 55 and 70,000 people here. It's crazy. And we're only getting a snapshot of that because here we are at Venetian Expo and the conference is going on all over the strip. But what are some of the things that you've heard from AWS that excite you about the partnership going forward? >> You know, I'll be honest, one of my happiest, proud moments, when we're talking about Lambda SnapStart yesterday, we actually, our team that is here today was part of the first beta of bringing in Lambda SnapStart. And we're super excited because it helps propel our serverless agenda. You know, we're continued to transform into the cloud. So, we have a lot of these partnership opportunities that, you know, make me super proud. >> Well follow up on serverless because to a lot of people, it's a concept that they don't really understand how to put it to practice. How is serverless a step forward? What has it enabled you to do that you couldn't otherwise do? >> Wow, a bunch. I think first and foremost, it helps us stay, you know, very well managed, security wise, right? It allows us to create automation and it takes away a lot of the heavy lifting that our engineers would have to do otherwise. And the byproduct of that is that we get to go focus on really fun, innovative ideas, and we get to go work on product development. We're taking a lot of the grit work of the management of the servers out of the engineer's hand and automating them. >> Banking, of course, one of the most regulated industries on the planet, has Cloud been able to help you in that respect? >> Yes. Yes it has. Look, we are in a regulated space which means everything we do has a ton of scrutiny, for the right reasons. So we actually built it into our design, so our design, our products, we design our platforms with security in mind, with the regulations in mind and make it where it's less of a thought, right? So, we obviously spend a lot of time from a risk posture helping our associates understand, really respecting the responsibility that we have to look after everybody's assets, right? Like it's, what a more incredible job than that? So, we spend a lot of time thinking about what is our risk posture, where is it, you know, from what you would imagine the regular scan vulnerabilities all the way to data protection. And now that we protect that data in Fly, like they're all things that is our number one job and we spend a ton of time focused on it. >> That's good, it's very complex but security is a topic we discuss regularly. We've seen the threat landscape change so dramatically in the last couple of years. Bad actors are getting far more sophisticated. They're leveraging the technology but when it comes to banking as Paul was talking about, from a regulations perspective, from an end customer perspective, we have this expectation that you're going to keep my data secure because nobody wants to be the next headline. >> Lo: Yes, that's right. That's right, and look, we are getting, we're getting smarter as well, right? So we are able to detect and monitor and go after the bad actors faster. We're doing it in a way that allows us configurability, it gives us time, it gives us speed, but at the same time we also work as a network, right? So a lot of our banks, we, you know, in some ways share a lot of this information to make sure that we're all going after a common enemy. >> Capital One recently launched a software company, Capital One Software, which is a relatively unusual move by a financial services organization. How has that affected the thinking at the company about what the company is and what other opportunities there might be outside of pure banking? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, Capital One Software is a very exciting new line of business. I think the team that is there is doing some really incredible, innovative work. But you know what's really interesting is they were talking about our new product SlingShot, it was born out of our needs, right? We knew that we needed to have better governance around our data. We created really great tools and it was very obvious that there was a commercial applicability there. And that is how we will continue to operate, right? As a bank, we're all in the cloud, we're all in in the cloud. It will give us the ability to start sharing some of these best practices. And I think the best is yet to come, I think we got some really good stuff in the pipeline. >> Lisa: Anything you can share in the-- >> No. >> Lisa: No? Tight lips. >> Tight lips. >> Excellent, well, last couple of questions. What's the main theme here? When people walk into the Venetian Expo and they see Capital One next to all these tech companies, what's the main theme that Capital One wants to get across to the greater community? >> Yeah, look, our mission is to change banking for good, it always has been our mission. We're very fortunate to be in a position to be tech innovators, and we're fortunate to disrupt, and that's what I want people to get out of it. >> Excellent, my last question for you, kind of continuing on this theme. If you had, you were going to have the opportunity to create new branding and it's going to go in the cafes and it's going to be like a little billboard inside about Capital One being a technology company that does banking. What do you think that that billboard, that sign would say? >> I think I'm going to stick with the change banking for good. I mean, that really is at the heart of our mission. >> Paul: It's a nice double message too, yeah. >> Yeah, with technology, with disruption, ultimately that's where our hearts and minds are at. >> Awesome. Lo, it's been great to have you on the program. Thank you for sharing what you're doing at Capital One, how you're working with AWS and also emerging technologies like AI and ML to really create a seamless digital customer experience. We really appreciate your time and your insights. >> Thank you. >> All right, for our guest and for Paul Gillin I'm Lisa Martin. You're watching theCUBE, the leader in live emerging and enterprise tech coverage. (upbeat music)

>>Hey, welcome back everyone. Day three of eight of us Reinvent 2022. I'm John Farmer with Dave Volante, co-host the q Dave. 10 years for us, the leader in high tech coverage is our slogan. Now 10 years of reinvent day. We've been to every single one except with the original, which we would've come to if Amazon actually marketed the event, but they didn't. It's more of a customer event. This is day three. Is the machine learning ai keynote sws up there. A lot of announcements. We're gonna break this down. We got, we got Andy Thra here, vice President, prince Constellation Research. Andy, great to see you've been on the cube before one of our analysts bringing the, bringing the, the analysis, commentary to the keynote. This is your wheelhouse. Ai. What do you think about Swami up there? I mean, he's awesome. We love him. Big fan Oh yeah. Of of the Cuban we're fans of him, but he got 13 announcements. >>A lot. A lot, >>A lot. >>So, well some of them are, first of all, thanks for having me here and I'm glad to have both of you on the same show attacking me. I'm just kidding. But some of the announcement really sort of like a game changer announcements and some of them are like, meh, you know, just to plug in the holes what they have and a lot of golf claps. Yeah. Meeting today. And you could have also noticed that by, when he was making the announcements, you know, the, the, the clapping volume difference, you could say, which is better, right? But some of the announcements are, are really, really good. You know, particularly we talked about, one of that was Microsoft took that out of, you know, having the open AI in there, doing the large language models. And then they were going after that, you know, having the transformer available to them. And Amazon was a little bit weak in the area, so they couldn't, they don't have a large language model. So, you know, they, they are taking a different route saying that, you know what, I'll help you train the large language model by yourself, customized models. So I can provide the necessary instance. I can provide the instant volume, memory, the whole thing. Yeah. So you can train the model by yourself without depending on them kind >>Of thing. So Dave and Andy, I wanna get your thoughts cuz first of all, we've been following Amazon's deep bench on the, on the infrastructure pass. They've been doing a lot of machine learning and ai, a lot of data. It just seems that the sentiment is that there's other competitors doing a good job too. Like Google, Dave. And I've heard folks in the hallway, even here, ex Amazonians saying, Hey, they're train their models on Google than they bring up the SageMaker cuz it's better interface. So you got, Google's making a play for being that data cloud. Microsoft's obviously putting in a, a great kind of package to kind of make it turnkey. How do they really stand versus the competition guys? >>Good question. So they, you know, each have their own uniqueness and the we variation that take it to the field, right? So for example, if you were to look at it, Microsoft is known for as industry or later things that they are been going after, you know, industry verticals and whatnot. So that's one of the things I looked here, you know, they, they had this omic announcement, particularly towards that healthcare genomics space. That's a huge space for hpz related AIML applications. And they have put a lot of things in together in here in the SageMaker and in the, in their models saying that, you know, how do you, how do you use this transmit to do things like that? Like for example, drug discovery, for genomics analysis, for cancer treatment, the whole, right? That's a few volumes of data do. So they're going in that healthcare area. Google has taken a different route. I mean they want to make everything simple. All I have to do is I gotta call an api, give what I need and then get it done. But Amazon wants to go at a much deeper level saying that, you know what? I wanna provide everything you need. You can customize the whole thing for what you need. >>So to me, the big picture here is, and and Swami references, Hey, we are a data company. We started, he talked about books and how that informed them as to, you know, what books to place front and center. Here's the, here's the big picture. In my view, companies need to put data at the core of their business and they haven't, they've generally put humans at the core of their business and data. And now machine learning are at the, at the outside and the periphery. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Facebook have put data at their core. So the question is how do incumbent companies, and you mentioned some Toyota Capital One, Bristol Myers Squibb, I don't know, are those data companies, you know, we'll see, but the challenge is most companies don't have the resources as you well know, Andy, to actually implement what Google and Facebook and others have. >>So how are they gonna do that? Well, they're gonna buy it, right? So are they gonna build it with tools that's kind of like you said the Amazon approach or are they gonna buy it from Microsoft and Google, I pulled some ETR data to say, okay, who are the top companies that are showing up in terms of spending? Who's spending with whom? AWS number one, Microsoft number two, Google number three, data bricks. Number four, just in terms of, you know, presence. And then it falls down DataRobot, Anaconda data icu, Oracle popped up actually cuz they're embedding a lot of AI into their products and, and of course IBM and then a lot of smaller companies. But do companies generally customers have the resources to do what it takes to implement AI into applications and into workflows? >>So a couple of things on that. One is when it comes to, I mean it's, it's no surprise that the, the top three or the hyperscalers, because they all want to bring their business to them to run the specific workloads on the next biggest workload. As you was saying, his keynote are two things. One is the A AIML workloads and the other one is the, the heavy unstructured workloads that he was talking about. 80%, 90% of the data that's coming off is unstructured. So how do you analyze that? Such as the geospatial data. He was talking about the volumes of data you need to analyze the, the neural deep neural net drug you ought to use, only hyperscale can do it, right? So that's no wonder all of them on top for the data, one of the things they announced, which not many people paid attention, there was a zero eight L that that they talked about. >>What that does is a little bit of a game changing moment in a sense that you don't have to, for example, if you were to train the data, data, if the data is distributed everywhere, if you have to bring them all together to integrate it, to do that, it's a lot of work to doing the dl. So by taking Amazon, Aurora, and then Rich combine them as zero or no ETL and then have Apaches Apaches Spark applications run on top of analytical applications, ML workloads. That's huge. So you don't have to move around the data, use the data where it is, >>I, I think you said it, they're basically filling holes, right? Yeah. They created this, you know, suite of tools, let's call it. You might say it's a mess. It's not a mess because it's, they're really powerful but they're not well integrated and now they're starting to take the seams as I say. >>Well yeah, it's a great point. And I would double down and say, look it, I think that boring is good. You know, we had that phase in Kubernetes hype cycle where it got boring and that was kind of like, boring is good. Boring means we're getting better, we're invisible. That's infrastructure that's in the weeds, that's in between the toes details. It's the stuff that, you know, people we have to get done. So, you know, you look at their 40 new data sources with data Wrangler 50, new app flow connectors, Redshift Auto Cog, this is boring. Good important shit Dave. The governance, you gotta get it and the governance is gonna be key. So, so to me, this may not jump off the page. Adam's keynote also felt a little bit of, we gotta get these gaps done in a good way. So I think that's a very positive sign. >>Now going back to the bigger picture, I think the real question is can there be another independent cloud data cloud? And that's the, to me, what I try to get at my story and you're breaking analysis kind of hit a home run on this, is there's interesting opportunity for an independent data cloud. Meaning something that isn't aws, that isn't, Google isn't one of the big three that could sit in. And so let me give you an example. I had a conversation last night with a bunch of ex Amazonian engineering teams that left the conversation was interesting, Dave. They were like talking, well data bricks and Snowflake are basically batch, okay, not transactional. And you look at Aerospike, I can see their booth here. Transactional data bases are hot right now. Streaming data is different. Confluence different than data bricks. Is data bricks good at hosting? >>No, Amazon's better. So you start to see these kinds of questions come up where, you know, data bricks is great, but maybe not good for this, that and the other thing. So you start to see the formation of swim lanes or visibility into where people might sit in the ecosystem, but what came out was transactional. Yep. And batch the relationship there and streaming real time and versus you know, the transactional data. So you're starting to see these new things emerge. Andy, what do you, what's your take on this? You're following this closely. This seems to be the alpha nerd conversation and it all points to who's gonna have the best data cloud, say data, super clouds, I call it. What's your take? >>Yes, data cloud is important as well. But also the computational that goes on top of it too, right? Because when, when the data is like unstructured data, it's that much of a huge data, it's going to be hard to do that with a low model, you know, compute power. But going back to your data point, the training of the AIML models required the batch data, right? That's when you need all the, the historical data to train your models. And then after that, when you do inference of it, that's where you need the streaming real time data that's available to you too. You can make an inference. One of the things, what, what they also announced, which is somewhat interesting, is you saw that they have like 700 different instances geared towards every single workload. And there are some of them very specifically run on the Amazon's new chip. The, the inference in two and theran tr one chips that basically not only has a specific instances but also is run on a high powered chip. And then if you have that data to support that, both the training as well as towards the inference, the efficiency, again, those numbers have to be proven. They claim that it could be anywhere between 40 to 60% faster. >>Well, so a couple things. You're definitely right. I mean Snowflake started out as a data warehouse that was simpler and it's not architected, you know, in and it's first wave to do real time inference, which is not now how, how could they, the other second point is snowflake's two or three years ahead when it comes to governance, data sharing. I mean, Amazon's doing what always does. It's copying, you know, it's customer driven. Cuz they probably walk into an account and they say, Hey look, what's Snowflake's doing for us? This stuff's kicking ass. And they go, oh, that's a good idea, let's do that too. You saw that with separating compute from storage, which is their tiering. You saw it today with extending data, sharing Redshift, data sharing. So how does Snowflake and data bricks approach this? They deal with ecosystem. They bring in ecosystem partners, they bring in open source tooling and that's how they compete. I think there's unquestionably an opportunity for a data cloud. >>Yeah, I think, I think the super cloud conversation and then, you know, sky Cloud with Berkeley Paper and other folks talking about this kind of pre, multi-cloud era. I mean that's what I would call us right now. We are, we're kind of in the pre era of multi-cloud, which by the way is not even yet defined. I think people use that term, Dave, to say, you know, some sort of magical thing that's happening. Yeah. People have multiple clouds. They got, they, they end up by default, not by design as Dell likes to say. Right? And they gotta deal with it. So it's more of they're inheriting multiple cloud environments. It's not necessarily what they want in the situation. So to me that is a big, big issue. >>Yeah, I mean, again, going back to your snowflake and data breaks announcements, they're a data company. So they, that's how they made their mark in the market saying that, you know, I do all those things, therefore you have, I had to have your data because it's a seamless data. And, and Amazon is catching up with that with a lot of that announcements they made, how far it's gonna get traction, you know, to change when I to say, >>Yeah, I mean to me, to me there's no doubt about Dave. I think, I think what Swamee is doing, if Amazon can get corner the market on out of the box ML and AI capabilities so that people can make it easier, that's gonna be the end of the day tell sign can they fill in the gaps. Again, boring is good competition. I don't know mean, mean I'm not following the competition. Andy, this is a real question mark for me. I don't know where they stand. Are they more comprehensive? Are they more deeper? Are they have deeper services? I mean, obviously shows to all the, the different, you know, capabilities. Where, where, where does Amazon stand? What's the process? >>So what, particularly when it comes to the models. So they're going at, at a different angle that, you know, I will help you create the models we talked about the zero and the whole data. We'll get the data sources in, we'll create the model. We'll move the, the whole model. We are talking about the ML ops teams here, right? And they have the whole functionality that, that they built ind over the year. So essentially they want to become the platform that I, when you come in, I'm the only platform you would use from the model training to deployment to inference, to model versioning to management, the old s and that's angle they're trying to take. So it's, it's a one source platform. >>What about this idea of technical debt? Adrian Carro was on yesterday. John, I know you talked to him as well. He said, look, Amazon's Legos, you wanna buy a toy for Christmas, you can go out and buy a toy or do you wanna build a, to, if you buy a toy in a couple years, you could break and what are you gonna do? You're gonna throw it out. But if you, if you, if part of your Lego needs to be extended, you extend it. So, you know, George Gilbert was saying, well, there's a lot of technical debt. Adrian was countering that. Does Amazon have technical debt or is that Lego blocks analogy the right one? >>Well, I talked to him about the debt and one of the things we talked about was what do you optimize for E two APIs or Kubernetes APIs? It depends on what team you're on. If you're on the runtime gene, you're gonna optimize for Kubernetes, but E two is the resources you want to use. So I think the idea of the 15 years of technical debt, I, I don't believe that. I think the APIs are still hardened. The issue that he brings up that I think is relevant is it's an end situation, not an or. You can have the bag of Legos, which is the primitives and build a durable application platform, monitor it, customize it, work with it, build it. It's harder, but the outcome is durability and sustainability. Building a toy, having a toy with those Legos glued together for you, you can get the play with, but it'll break over time. Then you gotta replace it. So there's gonna be a toy business and there's gonna be a Legos business. Make your own. >>So who, who are the toys in ai? >>Well, out of >>The box and who's outta Legos? >>The, so you asking about what what toys Amazon building >>Or, yeah, I mean Amazon clearly is Lego blocks. >>If people gonna have out the box, >>What about Google? What about Microsoft? Are they basically more, more building toys, more solutions? >>So Google is more of, you know, building solutions angle like, you know, I give you an API kind of thing. But, but if it comes to vertical industry solutions, Microsoft is, is is ahead, right? Because they have, they have had years of indu industry experience. I mean there are other smaller cloud are trying to do that too. IBM being an example, but you know, the, now they are starting to go after the specific industry use cases. They think that through, for example, you know the medical one we talked about, right? So they want to build the, the health lake, security health lake that they're trying to build, which will HIPPA and it'll provide all the, the European regulations, the whole line yard, and it'll help you, you know, personalize things as you need as well. For example, you know, if you go for a certain treatment, it could analyze you based on your genome profile saying that, you know, the treatment for this particular person has to be individualized this way, but doing that requires a anomalous power, right? So if you do applications like that, you could bring in a lot of the, whether healthcare, finance or what have you, and then easy for them to use. >>What's the biggest mistake customers make when it comes to machine intelligence, ai, machine learning, >>So many things, right? I could start out with even the, the model. Basically when you build a model, you, you should be able to figure out how long that model is effective. Because as good as creating a model and, and going to the business and doing things the right way, there are people that they leave the model much longer than it's needed. It's hurting your business more than it is, you know, it could be things like that. Or you are, you are not building a responsibly or later things. You are, you are having a bias and you model and are so many issues. I, I don't know if I can pinpoint one, but there are many, many issues. Responsible ai, ethical ai. All >>Right, well, we'll leave it there. You're watching the cube, the leader in high tech coverage here at J three at reinvent. I'm Jeff, Dave Ante. Andy joining us here for the critical analysis and breaking down the commentary. We'll be right back with more coverage after this short break.

foreign welcome back everyone to our special presentation here at thecube with Horizon 3.a I'm John Furrier host thecube here in Palo Alto back it's niho and Tony CEO and co-founder of horizon 3 for deep dive on going under the hood around the big news and also the platform autonomous pen testing changing the game and security great to see you welcome back thank you John I love what you guys have been doing with the cube huge fan been here a bunch of times and yeah looking forward to the conversation let's get into it all right so what what's the market look like and how do you see it evolving we're in a down Market relative to startups some say our data we're reporting on siliconangle in the cube that yeah there might be a bit of downturn in the economy with inflation but the tech Market is booming because the hyperscalers are still pumping out massive scale and still innovating so so you know for the first time in history this is a recession or downturn where there's now Cloud scale players that are an economic engine what's your view on this where's the market heading relative to the downturn and how are you guys navigating that so um I think about it one the there's a lot of belief out there that we're going to hit a downturn and we started to see that we started to see deals get longer and longer to close back in May across the board in the industry we continue to see deals get at least backloaded in the quarter as people understand their procurement how much money they really have to spend what their earnings are going to be so we're seeing this across the board one is quarters becoming lumpier for tech companies and we think that that's going to become kind of the norm over the next over the next year but what's interesting in our space of security testing is a very basic supply and demand problem the demand for security testing has skyrocketed when I was a CIO eight years ago I only had to worry about my on-prem attack surface my perimeter and Insider threat those are my primary threat vectors now if I was a CIO I have to include multiple clouds all of the data in my SAS offerings my Salesforce account and so on as well as work from home threat vectors and other pieces and I've got Regulatory Compliance in Europe in Asia in in the U.S tons of demand for testing and there's just not enough Supply there's only 5 000 certified pen testers in the United States so I think for starters you have a fundamental supply and demand problem that plays to our strength because we're able to bring a tremendous amount of pen testing supply to the table but now let's flip to if you are the CEO of a large security company or whether it's a Consulting shop or so on you've got a whole bunch of deferred revenue in your business model around security testing services and what we've done in our past in previous companies I worked at is if we didn't think we were going to make the money the quarter with product Revenue we would start to unlock some of that deferred Services Revenue to make the number to hit what we expected Wall Street to hit what Wall Street expected of us in testing that's not possible because there's not enough Supply except us so if I'm the CEO of an mssp or a large security company and I need I see a huge backlog of security testing revenue on the table the easy button to convert that to recognized revenue is Horizon 3. and when I think about the next six months and the amount of Revenue misses we're going to see in security shops especially those that can't fulfill their orders I think there's a ripe opportunity for us to win yeah one of the few opportunities where on any Market you win because the forces will drive your flywheel that's exactly right very basic supply and demand forces that are only increasing with pressure and there's no way it takes 10 years just to build a master hacker just it's a very hard complex space we become the easy button to address that supply problem yeah and this and the autonomous aspect makes appsec reviews as new things get pushed with Cloud native developers they're shifting left but still the security policies need to stay Pace as these new vectors threat vectors appear yeah I mean because that's what's happening a new new thing makes a vector possible that's exactly right I think there's two aspects one is the as you in increase change in your environment you need to increase testing they are absolutely correlated the second thing though is you know for 20 years we focused on remote code execution or rces as an industry what was the latest rce that gave an attacker access to my environment but if you look over the past few years that entire mindset has shifted credentials are the new code execution what I mean by that is if I have a large organization with a hundred a thousand ten thousand employees all it takes is one of them to have a password I can crack in credential spray and gain access to as an attacker and once I've gained access to a single user I'm going to systematically snowball that into something of consequence and so I think that the attackers have shifted away from looking for code execution and looked more towards harvesting credentials and cascading credentials from a regular domain user into an admin this brings up the conversation I would like to do it more Deep dive now shift into more of like the real kind of landscape of the market and your positioning and value proposition in that and that is managed services are becoming really popular as we move into this next next wave of super cloud and multi-cloud and hybrid Cloud because I mean multi-cloud and hybrid hybrid than multi-cloud sounds good on paper but the security Ops become big and one of the things we're reporting with here on the cube and siliconangle the past six months is devops has made the developer the IT team because they've essentially run it now in CI CD pipeline as they say that means it's replaced by data Ops or AI Ops or security Ops and data and security kind of go hand in hand so I can see that playing out do you believe that to be true that that's kind of the new operational kind of beach head that's critical and if so secure if data is part of security that makes security the new it yeah I I think that if you think about organizations hell even for Horizon 3 right now I don't need to hire a CIO I'll have a CSO and that CSO will own it and governance risk and compliance and security operations because at the end of the day the most pressing question for me to answer as a CEO is my security posture IIT is a supporting function of that security posture and we see that at say or a growth stage company like Horizon 3 but when I thought about my time at GE Capital we really shifted to this mindset of security by Design architecture as code and it was very much security driven conversation and I think that is the norm going forward and how do you view the idea that you have to enable a managed service provider with security also managing comp and which then manages the company to enable them to have agile security um security is code because what you're getting at is this autonomous layer that's going to be automated away to make the next talented layer whether it's coder or architect scale so the question is what is abstracted away at at automation seems to be the conversation that's coming out of this big cloud native or super cloud next wave of cloud scale I think there's uh there's two Dimensions to that and honestly I think the more interesting Dimension is not the technical side of it but rather think of the Equifax hack a bunch of years ago had Equifax used a managed security services provider would the CEO have been fired after the breach and the answer is probably not I think the CEO would have transferred enough reputational risk in operational risk to the third party mssp to save his job from being you know from him being fired you can look at that across the board I think that if if I were a CIO again I would be hard-pressed to build my own internal security function because I'm accepting that risk as an executive and we saw what just happened at Uber there's a ton of risk coming with that with the with accepting that as a security person so I think in the future the role of the mssp becomes more significant as a mechanism for transferring enough reputational and operational and legal risk to a third party so that you as the Core Company are able to protect yourself and your people now then what you think is a super cloud printables and Concepts being applied at mssp scale and I think that becomes really interesting talk about the talent opportunity because I think the managed service providers point to markets that are growing and changing also having managed service means that the customers can't always hire Talent hence they go to a Channel or a partner this seems to be a key part of the growth in your area talk about the talent aspect of it yeah um think back to what we saw in Cloud so as as Cloud picked up we saw IBM HP other Hardware companies sell more servers but to fewer customers Amazon Google and others right and so I think something similar is going to happen in the security space where I think you're going to see security tools providers selling more volume but to fewer customers that are just really big mssps so that is the the path forward and I think that the underlying Talent issue gives us economies at scale and that's what we saw this with Cloud we're going to see the same thing in the mssp space I've got a density of Talent Plus a density of automation plus a density of of relationships and ecosystem that give mssps a huge economies of scale advantage over everybody else I mean I want to get into the mssp business sounds like I make a lot of money yeah definitely it's profitable no doubt about it like that I got to ask more on the more of the burden side of it because if you're a partner I don't need another training class I don't need another tool I don't need someone saying this is the highest margin product I need to actually downsize my tools so right now there's hundreds of tools that mssps have all the time dealing with and does the customer so tools platforms we've kind of teased this out in previous conversations together but more more relevant to the mssp is what they do to the customers so talk about this uh burden of tools and the socks out there in the in in the landscape how do you how do you view that and what's the conversation like on average an organization has 130 different cyber security tools installed none of those tools were designed to work together none of those tools are from the same vendor and in fact oftentimes they're from vendors that have competing products and so what we don't have and they're still getting breached in the industry we don't have a tools problem we have an Effectiveness problem we have to reduce the number of tools we have get more out of out of the the effectiveness out of the existing infrastructure build muscle memory you know how to detect and respond to a breach and continuously verify that posture I think that's what the the most successful security organizations have mastered the fundamentals and they mastered that by making sure they were effective in detection and response not mastering it by buying the next shiny AI tool on the defensive side okay so you mentioned supply and demand early since you're brought up economics we'll get into the economic equations here when you have great profits that's going to attract more entrance into the marketplace so as more mssps enter the market you're going to start to see a little bit of competition maybe some fud maybe some price competitive price penetration all kinds of different Tactics get out go on there um how does that impact you because now does that impact your price or are you now part of them just competing on their own value what's that mean for the channel as more entrants come in hey you know I can compete against that other one does that create conflict is that an opportunity does are you neutral on that what's the position it's a great question actually I think the way it plays out is one we are neutral two the mssp has to stand on their own with their own unique value proposition otherwise they're going to become commoditized we saw this in the early cloud provider days the cloud providers that were just basically wrapping existing Hardware with with a race to the bottom pricing model didn't survive those that use the the cloud infrastructure as a starting point to build higher value capabilities they're the ones that have succeeded to this day the same Mo I think will occur in mssps which is there's a base level of capability that they've got to be able to deliver and it is the burden of the mssp to innovate effectively to elevate their value problem it's interesting Dynamic and I brought it up mainly because if you believe that this is going to be a growing New Market price erosion is more in mature markets so it's interesting to see that Dynamic come up and we'll see how that handles on the on the economics and just the macro side of it getting more into kind of like the next gen autonomous pen testing is a leading indicator that a new kind of security assessment is here um if I said that to you how do you respond to that what is this new security assessment mean what does that mean for the customer and to the partner and that that relationship down that whole chain yeah um back to I'm wearing a CIO hat right now don't tell me we're secure in PowerPoint show me we're secure Today Show me where we're secure tomorrow and then show me we're secure again next week because that's what matters to me if you can show me we're secure I can understand the risk I'm accepting and articulate it up to my board to my Regulators up until now we've had a PowerPoint tell me where secure culture and security and I just don't think that's going to last all that much longer so I think the future of security testing and assessment is this shift from a PowerPoint report to truly showing me that my I'm secure enough you guys auto-generate those statements now you mentioned that earlier that's exactly right because the other part is you know the classic way to do security reports was garbage in garbage out you had a human kind of theoretically fill out a spreadsheet that magically came up with the risk score or security posture that doesn't work that's a check the box mentality what you want to have is an accurate High Fidelity understanding of your blind spots your threat vectors what data is at risk what credentials are at risk you want to look at those results over time how quickly did I find problems how quickly did I fix them how often did they reoccur and that is how you get to a show me where secure culture whether I'm a company or I'm a channel partner working with Horizon 3.ai I have to put my name on the line and say Here's a service level agreement I'm going to stand behind there's levels of compliance you mentioned that earlier how do you guys help that area because that becomes I call the you know below the line I got to do it anyway usually it's you know they grind out the work but it has to be fundamental because if the threats vectors are increasing and you're handling it like you say you are the way it is real time today tomorrow the next day you got to have that other stuff flow into it can you describe how that works under the hood yeah there's there's two parts to it the first part is that attackers don't have to hack in with zero days they log in with credentials that they found but often what attackers are doing is chaining together different types of problems so if you have 10 different tactics you can chain those together a number of different ways it's not just 10 to the 10th it's it's actually because you don't you don't have to use all the tactics at once this is a very large number of combinations that an attacker can apply upon you is what it comes down to and so at the base level what you want to have is what are the the primary tactics that are being used and those tactics are always being added to and evolving what are the primary outcomes that an attacker is trying to achieve steal your data disrupt your systems become a domain admin and borrow and now what you have is it actually looks more like a chess game algorithm than it does any sort of hard-coded automation or anything else which is based on the pieces on the board the the it infrastructure I've discovered what is the next best action to become a domain admin or steal your data and that's the underlying innovation in IP we've created which is next best action Knowledge Graph analytics and adaptiveness to figure out how to combine different problems together to achieve an objective that an attacker cares about so the 3D chess players out there I'd say that's more like 3D chess are the practitioners implementing it but when I think about compliance managers I don't see 3D chess players I see back office accountants in my mind like okay are they actually even understand what comes out of that so how do you handle the compliance side do you guys just check the boxes there is it not part of it is it yeah I I know I don't Envision the compliance guys on the front lines identifying vectors do you know what it doesn't even know what it means yeah it's a great question when you think about uh the market segmentation I think there are we've seen are three basic types of users you've got the the really mature high frequency security testing purple team type folks and for them we are the the force multiplier for them to secure the environment you then have the middle group where the IT person and the security person are the same individual they are barely Treading Water they don't know what their attack surface is and they don't know what to focus on we end up that's actually where we started with the barely Treading Water Persona and that's why we had a product that helped those Network Engineers become superheroes the third segment are those that view security and compliance as synonymous and they don't really care about continuous they care about running and checking the box for PCI and forever else and those customers while they use us they are better served by our partner ecosystem and that's really so the the first two categories tend to use us directly self-service pen tests as often as they want that compliance-minded folks end up going through our partners because they're better served there steel great to have you on thanks for this deep dive on um under the hood section of the interview appreciate it and I think autonomous is is an indicator Beyond pen testing pen testing has become like okay penetration security but this is not going away where do you see this evolving what's next what's next for Horizon take a minute to give a plug for what's going on with copy how do you see it I know you got good margins you're raising Capital always raising money you're not yet public um looking good right now as they say yeah yeah well I think the first thing is our company strategy is in three chapters chapter one is become the best security testing platform in the industry period that's it and be very good at helping you find and fix your security blind spots that's chapter one we've been crushing it there with great customer attraction great partner traction chapter two which we've started to enter is look at our results over time to help that that GRC officer or auditor accurately assess the security posture of an organization and we're going to enter that chapter about this time next year longer term though the big Vision I have is how do I use offense to inform defense so for me chapter three is how do I get away from just security testing towards autonomous security overall where you can use our security testing platform to identify ways to attack that informs defensive tools exactly where to focus how to adjust and so on and now you've got offset and integrated learning Loop between attack and defense that's the future never been done before Master the art of attack to become a better Defender is the bigger vision of the company love the new paradigm security congratulations been following you guys we will continue to follow you thanks for coming on the Special Report congratulations on the new Market expansion International going indirect that a big way congratulations thank you John appreciate it okay this is a special presentation with the cube and Horizon 3.ai I'm John Furrier your host thanks for watching thank you

foreign [Music] my name is Savannah Peterson and I am very excited to be coming to you today from the cube in Palo Alto we're going to be talking about kubecon giving a little preview of the hype and what you might be able to expect in Detroit with the one and only co-founder and CEO of the cube and siliconangle John ferriere John hello how are you today thanks for hosting and doing the preview with me my goodness a pleasure I we got acquainted this time last year how do you think the ecosystem has changed are you excited well first of all I missed kubecon Valencia because I had covid I was so excited to be there this big trip plan and then couldn't make it but so much has gone on I mean we've been at every kubecon the cube was there at the beginning when openstack was still going on kubernetes just started came out of Google we were there having beers with Lou Tucker and a bunch of The Luminaries when it all kind of came together and then watch it year by year progress through and how it's changed the industry and mainly how open source has been really the wave behind it combining with the Linux foundation and then cncf and then open source movement and good kubernetes has been amazing and under it all containers has been the real driver and all this so you know Docker containers Docker was a well-funded company they had to Pivot and were restructured now they're pure open source so containers have gone Supernova on top of that kubernetes and with that's a complete ecosystem of opportunity to create the next operating system in in software development so to me kubecon is at the center of software software 2030 what do you want to call it super cloud it's that it's really action it's not where the old school is it's where the new school is excellent so what has you most excited this year what's the biggest change from this time last year and now well two things I'm looking at this year uh carefully both from an editorial lens and also from a sponsorship lenses where is the funding going on the sponsorships because again a very diverse ecosystem of Builders but also vendors so I'm going to see how that Dynamics going on but also on the software side a lot of white space going on in the stack or in the map if you will you know the run times you've got observability you got a lot of competition maybe projects might be growing some Rising some falling maybe merge together I'm going to see how that but there's a lot of white spaces developing so I'm curious to see what's new on that area and then service meshes is a big deal this year so I'm looking for what's going on so it's been kind of a I won't say cold war but kind of like uh you know where is this going to go and because it's a super important part of of the of the orchestration and managing containers and so be very interested to see how service mesh does istio and other versions out there have been around for a while so that and also the other controversy is the number of stars on GitHub a project may have so sometimes that carries a lot of weight but we're going to look at which ones are rising which ones are falling again um which ones are getting the most votes by the developers vote with their code yeah absolutely well we did definitely miss you down in Los Angeles but it will be great to be in Detroit what has you most excited do you think that we're going to see the number of people in person that we have in the past I know you've seen it since the beginning so I think this year is going to be explosive from that psychology angle because I think it was really weird because La was on they were a bold to make that move we're all there is first conference back it was a lot a lot of like badges don't touch me only handshakes fist pumps but it was at the beginning of the covid second wave right so it was kind of still not yet released where everyone's was not worried about it so I think it's in the past year in the past eight months I mean I've been places with no masks people have no masks Vegas other places so I think it's going to be a year where it will be a lot more people in person because the growth and the opportunities are so big it's going to drive a lot of people in person just like Amazon reinvent those yeah absolutely and as the most important and prominent event in the kubernetes space I think everyone's very excited to to get back together when we think about this space do you think there that anyone's the clear winner yet or do you think it's still a bit of a open territory in terms of the companies and Partnerships I think Red Hat has done a great job and they're you know I think they're going to see how well they can turn this into gold for them because they've positioned themselves very well open shift years ago was kind of waffling I won't say it in a bad way but like but once they got view on containers and kubernetes red has done an exceptional job in how they position their company being bought by ibms can be very interesting to see how that influences change so if Red Hat can stay red hat I think IBM will win I think customers that's one company I like the startups we're seeing companies like platform nine Rafi systems young companies coming out in the kubernetes as a service space because I think whoever can make kubernetes easier because I think that's the hard part right now even though that the show is called kubecon is a lot more than kubernetes I think the container layer what docker's doing has been exceptional that's the real action the question is how does that impact the kubernetes layers so kubernetes is not a done deal yet I think it hasn't really crossed the chasm yet it's certainly popular but not every company is adopting it so we're starting to see that we need to see more adoption of kubernetes seeing that happen it's going to decide who the winners are totally agree with that if you look at the data a lot of companies are and people are excited about kubernetes but they haven't taken the plunge to shifting over their stack or fully embracing it because of that complexity so I'm very curious to see what we learn this week about who those players might be moving forward how does it feel to be in Detroit when was the last time you were here I was there in 2007 was the last time I was in that town so uh we'll see what's like wow yeah but things have changed yeah the lions are good this year they've got great hockey goalies there so you know all right you've heard that sports fans let John know what you're thinking your Sports predictions for this season I love that who do you hope to get to meet while we're at the show I want to meet more end user customers we're gonna have Envoy again on the cube I think Red Hat was going to be a big sponsor this year they've been great um we're looking for end user project most looking for some editorial super cloud like um commentary because the cncf is kind of the developer Tech Community that's powering in my opinion this next wave of software development Cloud native devops is now Cloud native developers devops is kind of going away that's killed I.T in my opinion data and security Ops is the new kind of Ops the new it so it's good to see how devops turns into more of a software engineering meet supercloud so I think you're going to start to see the infrastructure become more programmable it's infrastructure as code so I think if anything I'm more excited to hear more stories about how infrastructure as code is now the new standard so if when that truly happens the super cloud model be kicking into high gear I love that let's you touched on it a little bit right there but I want to dig in a bit since you've been around since the beginning what is it that you appreciate or enjoy so much about the kubernetes community and the people around this I think there are authentic people and I think they're they're building they're also Progressive they're very diverse um they're open and inclusive they try stuff and um they can be critical but they're not jerks about it so when people try something um they're open-minded of a failure so it's a classic startup mentality I think that is embodied throughout the Linux Foundation but CNC in particular has to bridge the entrepreneurial and corporate Vibe so they've done an exceptional job doing that and that's what I like about this money making involved but there's also a lot of development and Innovation that comes out of it so the next big name and startup could come out of this community and that's what I hope to see coming out here is that next brand that no one's heard of that just comes out of nowhere and just takes a big position in the marketplace so that's going to be interesting to see hopefully we have on our stage there yeah that's the goal we're going to interview them all a year from now when we're sitting here again what do you hope to be able to say about this space or this event that we might not be able to say today I think it's going to be more of clarity around um the new modern software development techniques software next gen using AI more faster silicon chips you see Amazon with what they're doing the custom silicon more processing but I think Hardware matters we've been talking a lot about that I think I think it's we're going to shift from what's been innovative and what's changed I think I think if you look at what's been going on in the industry outside of crypto the infrastructure hasn't really changed much except for AWS what they've done so I'm expecting to see more Innovations at the physics level way down in the chips and then that lower end of the stack is going to be dominated by either one of the three clouds probably AWS and then the middle layer is going to be this where the abstraction is around making infrastructure as code really happen I think that's going to be Clarity coming out of this year next year we should have some visibility into the vertical applications and of the AI and machine learning absolutely digging in on that actually even more because I like what you're saying a lot what verticals do you think that kubernetes is going to impact the most looking even further out than say a year I mean I think that hot ones Healthcare fintech are obvious to get the most money they're spending I think they're the ones who are already kind of creating these super cloud models where they're actually changed over their their spending from capex to Opex and they're driving top line revenue as part of that so you're seeing companies that wants customers of the I.T vendors are now becoming the providers that's a big super cloud Trend we see the other verticals are going to be served by a lot of men in Surprise oil and gas you know all the classic versus Healthcare I mentioned that one those are the classic verticals retail is going to I think be massively huge as you get more into the internet of things that's truly internet based you're going to start to see a lot more Edge use cases so Telecom I think it's going to be completely disrupted by new brands so I think once that you see see how that plays out but all verticals are going to be disrupted just a casual statement to say yeah yeah no doubt in my mind that's great I'm personally really excited about the edge applications that are possible here and can't wait to see can't wait to see what happens next I'm curious as to your thoughts how based given your history here and we don't have to say number of years that you've been participating in in Cape Cod but give them your history what's the evolution looked like from that Community perspective when you were all just starting out having that first drink did you anticipate that we would be here with thousands of people in Detroit you know I knew the moment was happening around um 2017-2018 Dan Coney no longer with us he passed away I ran into him randomly in China and it was like what are you doing here he was with a bunch of Docker guys so they were already investing in so I knew that the cncf was a great Steward for this community because they were already doing the work Dan led a great team at that time and then they were they were they were kicking ass and they were just really setting the foundation they dig in they set the architecture perfectly so I knew that that was a moment that was going to be pretty powerful at the early days when we were talking about kubernetes before it even started we were always always talking about if this this could be the tcpip of of cloud then we could have kind of a de facto interoperability and Lou Tucker was working for Cisco at the time and we were called it interclouding inter-networking what that did during the the revolution Cloud yeah the revolution of the client server and PC Revolution was about connectivity and so tcpip was the disruptive enable that created massive amounts of wealth created a lot of companies created a whole generation of companies so I think this next inflection point is kind of happening right now I think kubernetes is one step of this abstraction layer but you start to see companies like snowflake who's built on AWS and then moved to multiple clouds Goldman Sachs Capital One you're going to see insurance companies so we believe that the rise of the super cloud is here that's going to be Cloud 3.0 that's software 3.0 it's software three what do you want to call it it's not yesterday's Cloud lift and shift and run a SAS application it's a true Enterprise digital digital transformation so that's that's kind of the trend that we see riding in now and so you know if you're not on that side of the street you're going to get washed away from that wave so it's going to be interesting to see how how it all plays out so it's fun to watch who's on the wrong side it is very fun I hope you all are listening to this really powerful advice from John he's dropping some serious knowledge bombs on us well holding the back for kubecon because we've got we got all the great guests coming on and that's where all the content comes from I mean the best part of the community is that they're sharing yeah absolutely so just for old time's sake and it's because it's how I met your fabulous team last year Define kubernetes for the audience kubernetes is like what someone said it was a magical Christmas I heard that was a well good explanation with that when I heard that one um you mean the technical definition or like the business definition or maybe both you can give us an interpretive dance if you'd like I mean the simplest way to describe kubernetes is an orchestration layer that orchestrates containers that are containing applications and it's a way to keep things running and runtime assembly of like the of the data so if you've got you're running containers you can containerize applications kubernetes gives you that capability to run applications at scale which feeds into uh the development uh cycle of the pipelining of apps so if you're writing applications and you want to scale up it's a fast way to stand up massive amounts of scale using containers and kubernetes so a variety of other things that are in the in the in the system too so that was pretty good there's a lot more under the hood but that's the oversimplified version I think that's what we were going for I think it's actually I mean it's harder to oversimplify it sometimes in this case it connects it connects well it's the connective tissue between all the container applications yes last question for you John we are here at the cube we're very excited to be headed to Detroit very soon what can people expect from the cube at coupon this year so we'll be broadcasting Wednesday Thursday and Friday we'll be there early I'll be there Monday and Tuesday we'll do our normal kind of hanging around getting some scoop on the on the ground floor you'll see us there Monday and Tuesday probably in the in the lounge too um come up and say hi to us um again we're looking for more stories this year we believe this is the year that you're going to hear a lot more storytelling coming out of this community as people get more proof points so come up to us share your email your your handle give us yours give us your story we'll publish it we think we think this is going to be the year that cloud native developers start showing the signs of the of the rise of the supercloud that's going to come out of this this community so you know if you got something to say you know we're open to share stories so we're here all that speaking of John how can people say hi to you and the team on Twitter at Furrier at siliconangle at thecube thecube.net siliconangle.com LinkedIn Dave vellantis they were open on all channels all right signal Instagram WhatsApp perfect well pick your channel we really hope to hear from you John thank you so much for joining us for this preview session and thank you for tuning in my name is Savannah Peterson here in Palo Alto at thecube Studios looking forward to Detroit we can't wait to hear your thoughts do let us know in the comments and let us know if you're headed to Michigan cheers [Music] thank you