(light music) >> Hi everybody. Welcome to this Cube Conversation. I'm really pleased to announce a collaboration with Rob Strechay. He's a guest cube analyst, and we'll be working together to extract the signal from the noise. Rob is a long-time product pro, working at a number of firms including AWS, HP, HPE, NetApp, Snowplow. I did a stint as an analyst at Enterprise Strategy Group. Rob, good to see you. Thanks for coming into our Marlboro Studios. >> Well, thank you for having me. It's always great to be here. >> I'm really excited about working with you. We've known each other for a long time. You've been in the Cube a bunch. You know, you're in between gigs, and I think we can have a lot of fun together. Covering events, covering trends. So. let's get into it. What's happening out there? We're sort of exited the isolation economy. Things were booming. Now, everybody's tapping the brakes. From your standpoint, what are you seeing out there? >> Yeah. I'm seeing that people are really looking how to get more out of their data. How they're bringing things together, how they're looking at the costs of Cloud, and understanding how are they building out their SaaS applications. And understanding that when they go in and actually start to use Cloud, it's not only just using the base services anymore. They're looking at, how do I use these platforms as a service? Some are easier than others, and they're trying to understand, how do I get more value out of that relationship with the Cloud? They're also consolidating the number of Clouds that they have, I would say to try to better optimize their spend, and getting better pricing for that matter. >> Are you seeing people unhook Clouds, or just reduce maybe certain Cloud activities and going maybe instead of 60/40 going 90/10? >> Correct. It's more like the 90/10 type of rule where they're starting to say, Hey I'm not going to get rid of Azure or AWS or Google. I'm going to move a portion of this over that I was using on this one service. Maybe I got a great two-year contract to start with on this platform as a service or a database as a service. I'm going to unhook from that and maybe go with an independent. Maybe with something like a Snowflake or a Databricks on top of another Cloud, so that I can consolidate down. But it also gives them more flexibility as well. >> In our last breaking analysis, Rob, we identified six factors that were reducing Cloud consumption. There were factors and customer tactics. And I want to get your take on this. So, some of the factors really, you got fewer mortgage originations. FinTech, obviously big Cloud user. Crypto, not as much activity there. Lower ad spending means less Cloud. And then one of 'em, which you kind of disagreed with was less, less analytics, you know, fewer... Less frequency of calculations. I'll come back to that. But then optimizing compute using Graviton or AMD instances moving to cheaper storage tiers. That of course makes sense. And then optimize pricing plans. Maybe going from On Demand, you know, to, you know, instead of pay by the drink, buy in volume. Okay. So, first of all, do those make sense to you with the exception? We'll come back and talk about the analytics piece. Is that what you're seeing from customers? >> Yeah, I think so. I think that was pretty much dead on with what I'm seeing from customers and the ones that I go out and talk to. A lot of times they're trying to really monetize their, you know, understand how their business utilizes these Clouds. And, where their spend is going in those Clouds. Can they use, you know, lower tiers of storage? Do they really need the best processors? Do they need to be using Intel or can they get away with AMD or Graviton 2 or 3? Or do they need to move in? And, I think when you look at all of these Clouds, they always have pricing curves that are arcs from the newest to the oldest stuff. And you can play games with that. And understanding how you can actually lower your costs by looking at maybe some of the older generation. Maybe your application was written 10 years ago. You don't necessarily have to be on the best, newest processor for that application per se. >> So last, I want to come back to this whole analytics piece. Last June, I think it was June, Dev Ittycheria, who's the-- I call him Dev. Spelled Dev, pronounced Dave. (chuckles softly) Same pronunciation, different spelling. Dev Ittycheria, CEO of Mongo, on the earnings call. He was getting, you know, hit. Things were starting to get a little less visible in terms of, you know, the outlook. And people were pushing him like... Because you're in the Cloud, is it easier to dial down? And he said, because we're the document database, we support transaction applications. We're less discretionary than say, analytics. Well on the Snowflake earnings call, that same month or the month after, they were all over Slootman and Scarpelli. Oh, the Mongo CEO said that they're less discretionary than analytics. And Snowflake was an interesting comment. They basically said, look, we're the Cloud. You can dial it up, you can dial it down, but the area under the curve over a period of time is going to be the same, because they get their customers to commit. What do you say? You disagreed with the notion that people are running their calculations less frequently. Is that because they're trying to do a better job of targeting customers in near real time? What are you seeing out there? >> Yeah, I think they're moving away from using people and more expensive marketing. Or, they're trying to figure out what's my Google ad spend, what's my Meta ad spend? And what they're trying to do is optimize that spend. So, what is the return on advertising, or the ROAS as they would say. And what they're looking to do is understand, okay, I have to collect these analytics that better understand where are these people coming from? How do they get to my site, to my store, to my whatever? And when they're using it, how do they they better move through that? What you're also seeing is that analytics is not only just for kind of the retail or financial services or things like that, but then they're also, you know, using that to make offers in those categories. When you move back to more, you know, take other companies that are building products and SaaS delivered products. They may actually go and use this analytics for making the product better. And one of the big reasons for that is maybe they're dialing back how many product managers they have. And they're looking to be more data driven about how they actually go and build the product out or enhance the product. So maybe they're, you know, an online video service and they want to understand why people are either using or not using the whiteboard inside the product. And they're collecting a lot of that product analytics in a big way so that they can go through that. And they're doing it in a constant manner. This first party type tracking within applications is growing rapidly by customers. >> So, let's talk about who wins in that. So, obviously the Cloud guys, AWS, Google and Azure. I want to come back and unpack that a little bit. Databricks and Snowflake, we reported on our last breaking analysis, it kind of on a collision course. You know, a couple years ago we were thinking, okay, AWS, Snowflake and Databricks, like perfect sandwich. And then of course they started to become more competitive. My sense is they still, you know, compliment each other in the field, right? But, you know, publicly, they've got bigger aspirations, they get big TAMs that they're going after. But it's interesting, the data shows that-- So, Snowflake was off the charts in terms of spending momentum and our EPR surveys. Our partner down in New York, they kind of came into line. They're both growing in terms of market presence. Databricks couldn't get to IPO. So, we don't have as much, you know, visibility on their financials. You know, Snowflake obviously highly transparent cause they're a public company. And then you got AWS, Google and Azure. And it seems like AWS appears to be more partner friendly. Microsoft, you know, depends on what market you're in. And Google wants to sell BigQuery. >> Yeah. >> So, what are you seeing in the public Cloud from a data platform perspective? >> Yeah. I think that was pretty astute in what you were talking about there, because I think of the three, Google is definitely I think a little bit behind in how they go to market with their partners. Azure's done a fantastic job of partnering with these companies to understand and even though they may have Synapse as their go-to and where they want people to go to do AI and ML. What they're looking at is, Hey, we're going to also be friendly with Snowflake. We're also going to be friendly with a Databricks. And I think that, Amazon has always been there because that's where the market has been for these developers. So, many, like Databricks' and the Snowflake's have gone there first because, you know, Databricks' case, they built out on top of S3 first. And going and using somebody's object layer other than AWS, was not as simple as you would think it would be. Moving between those. >> So, one of the financial meetups I said meetup, but the... It was either the CEO or the CFO. It was either Slootman or Scarpelli talking at, I don't know, Merrill Lynch or one of the other financial conferences said, I think it was probably their Q3 call. Snowflake said 80% of our business goes through Amazon. And he said to this audience, the next day we got a call from Microsoft. Hey, we got to do more. And, we know just from reading the financial statements that Snowflake is getting concessions from Amazon, they're buying in volume, they're renegotiating their contracts. Amazon gets it. You know, lower the price, people buy more. Long term, we're all going to make more money. Microsoft obviously wants to get into that game with Snowflake. They understand the momentum. They said Google, not so much. And I've had customers tell me that they wanted to use Google's AI with Snowflake, but they can't, they got to go to to BigQuery. So, honestly, I haven't like vetted that so. But, I think it's true. But nonetheless, it seems like Google's a little less friendly with the data platform providers. What do you think? >> Yeah, I would say so. I think this is a place that Google looks and wants to own. Is that now, are they doing the right things long term? I mean again, you know, you look at Google Analytics being you know, basically outlawed in five countries in the EU because of GDPR concerns, and compliance and governance of data. And I think people are looking at Google and BigQuery in general and saying, is it the best place for me to go? Is it going to be in the right places where I need it? Still, it's still one of the largest used databases out there just because it underpins a number of the Google services. So you almost get, like you were saying, forced into BigQuery sometimes, if you want to use the tech on top. >> You do strategy. >> Yeah. >> Right? You do strategy, you do messaging. Is it the right call by Google? I mean, it's not a-- I criticize Google sometimes. But, I'm not sure it's the wrong call to say, Hey, this is our ace in the hole. >> Yeah. >> We got to get people into BigQuery. Cause, first of all, BigQuery is a solid product. I mean it's Cloud native and it's, you know, by all, it gets high marks. So, why give the competition an advantage? Let's try to force people essentially into what is we think a great product and it is a great product. The flip side of that is, they're giving up some potential partner TAM and not treating the ecosystem as well as one of their major competitors. What do you do if you're in that position? >> Yeah, I think that that's a fantastic question. And the question I pose back to the companies I've worked with and worked for is, are you really looking to have vendor lock-in as your key differentiator to your service? And I think when you start to look at these companies that are moving away from BigQuery, moving to even, Databricks on top of GCS in Google, they're looking to say, okay, I can go there if I have to evacuate from GCP and go to another Cloud, I can stay on Databricks as a platform, for instance. So I think it's, people are looking at what platform as a service, database as a service they go and use. Because from a strategic perspective, they don't want that vendor locking. >> That's where Supercloud becomes interesting, right? Because, if I can run on Snowflake or Databricks, you know, across Clouds. Even Oracle, you know, they're getting into business with Microsoft. Let's talk about some of the Cloud players. So, the big three have reported. >> Right. >> We saw AWSs Cloud growth decelerated down to 20%, which is I think the lowest growth rate since they started to disclose public numbers. And they said they exited, sorry, they said January they grew at 15%. >> Yeah. >> Year on year. Now, they had some pretty tough compares. But nonetheless, 15%, wow. Azure, kind of mid thirties, and then Google, we had kind of low thirties. But, well behind in terms of size. And Google's losing probably almost $3 billion annually. But, that's not necessarily a bad thing by advocating and investing. What's happening with the Cloud? Is AWS just running into the law, large numbers? Do you think we can actually see a re-acceleration like we have in the past with AWS Cloud? Azure, we predicted is going to be 75% of AWS IAS revenues. You know, we try to estimate IAS. >> Yeah. >> Even though they don't share that with us. That's a huge milestone. You'd think-- There's some people who have, I think, Bob Evans predicted a while ago that Microsoft would surpass AWS in terms of size. You know, what do you think? >> Yeah, I think that Azure's going to keep to-- Keep growing at a pretty good clip. I think that for Azure, they still have really great account control, even though people like to hate Microsoft. The Microsoft sellers that are out there making those companies successful day after day have really done a good job of being in those accounts and helping people. I was recently over in the UK. And the UK market between AWS and Azure is pretty amazing, how much Azure there is. And it's growing within Europe in general. In the states, it's, you know, I think it's growing well. I think it's still growing, probably not as fast as it is outside the U.S. But, you go down to someplace like Australia, it's also Azure. You hear about Azure all the time. >> Why? Is that just because of the Microsoft's software state? It's just so convenient. >> I think it has to do with, you know, and you can go with the reasoning they don't break out, you know, Office 365 and all of that out of their numbers is because they have-- They're in all of these accounts because the office suite is so pervasive in there. So, they always have reasons to go back in and, oh by the way, you're on these old SQL licenses. Let us move you up here and we'll be able to-- We'll support you on the old version, you know, with security and all of these things. And be able to move you forward. So, they have a lot of, I guess you could say, levers to stay in those accounts and be interesting. At least as part of the Cloud estate. I think Amazon, you know, is hitting, you know, the large number. Laws of large numbers. But I think that they're also going through, and I think this was seen in the layoffs that they were making, that they're looking to understand and have profitability in more of those services that they have. You know, over 350 odd services that they have. And you know, as somebody who went there and helped to start yet a new one, while I was there. And finally, it went to beta back in September, you start to look at the fact that, that number of services, people, their own sellers don't even know all of their services. It's impossible to comprehend and sell that many things. So, I think what they're going through is really looking to rationalize a lot of what they're doing from a services perspective going forward. They're looking to focus on more profitable services and bringing those in. Because right now it's built like a layer cake where you have, you know, S3 EBS and EC2 on the bottom of the layer cake. And then maybe you have, you're using IAM, the authorization and authentication in there and you have all these different services. And then they call it EMR on top. And so, EMR has to pay for that entire layer cake just to go and compete against somebody like Mongo or something like that. So, you start to unwind the costs of that. Whereas Azure, went and they build basically ground up services for the most part. And Google kind of falls somewhere in between in how they build their-- They're a sort of layer cake type effect, but not as many layers I guess you could say. >> I feel like, you know, Amazon's trying to be a platform for the ecosystem. Yes, they have their own products and they're going to sell. And that's going to drive their profitability cause they don't have to split the pie. But, they're taking a piece of-- They're spinning the meter, as Ziyas Caravalo likes to say on every time Snowflake or Databricks or Mongo or Atlas is, you know, running on their system. They take a piece of the action. Now, Microsoft does that as well. But, you look at Microsoft and security, head-to-head competitors, for example, with a CrowdStrike or an Okta in identity. Whereas, it seems like at least for now, AWS is a more friendly place for the ecosystem. At the same time, you do a lot of business in Microsoft. >> Yeah. And I think that a lot of companies have always feared that Amazon would just throw, you know, bodies at it. And I think that people have come to the realization that a two pizza team, as Amazon would call it, is eight people. I think that's, you know, two slices per person. I'm a little bit fat, so I don't know if that's enough. But, you start to look at it and go, okay, if they're going to start out with eight engineers, if I'm a startup and they're part of my ecosystem, do I really fear them or should I really embrace them and try to partner closer with them? And I think the smart people and the smart companies are partnering with them because they're realizing, Amazon, unless they can see it to, you know, a hundred million, $500 million market, they're not going to throw eight to 16 people at a problem. I think when, you know, you could say, you could look at the elastic with OpenSearch and what they did there. And the licensing terms and the battle they went through. But they knew that Elastic had a huge market. Also, you had a number of ecosystem companies building on top of now OpenSearch, that are now domain on top of Amazon as well. So, I think Amazon's being pretty strategic in how they're doing it. I think some of the-- It'll be interesting. I think this year is a payout year for the cuts that they're making to some of the services internally to kind of, you know, how do we take the fat off some of those services that-- You know, you look at Alexa. I don't know how much revenue Alexa really generates for them. But it's a means to an end for a number of different other services and partners. >> What do you make of this ChatGPT? I mean, Microsoft obviously is playing that card. You want to, you want ChatGPT in the Cloud, come to Azure. Seems like AWS has to respond. And we know Google is, you know, sharpening its knives to come up with its response. >> Yeah, I mean Google just went and talked about Bard for the first time this week and they're in private preview or I guess they call it beta, but. Right at the moment to select, select AI users, which I have no idea what that means. But that's a very interesting way that they're marketing it out there. But, I think that Amazon will have to respond. I think they'll be more measured than say, what Google's doing with Bard and just throwing it out there to, hey, we're going into beta now. I think they'll look at it and see where do we go and how do we actually integrate this in? Because they do have a lot of components of AI and ML underneath the hood that other services use. And I think that, you know, they've learned from that. And I think that they've already done a good job. Especially for media and entertainment when you start to look at some of the ways that they use it for helping do graphics and helping to do drones. I think part of their buy of iRobot was the fact that iRobot was a big user of RoboMaker, which is using different models to train those robots to go around objects and things like that, so. >> Quick touch on Kubernetes, the whole DevOps World we just covered. The Cloud Native Foundation Security, CNCF. The security conference up in Seattle last week. First time they spun that out kind of like reinforced, you know, AWS spins out, reinforced from reinvent. Amsterdam's coming up soon, the CubeCon. What should we expect? What's hot in Cubeland? >> Yeah, I think, you know, Kubes, you're going to be looking at how OpenShift keeps growing and I think to that respect you get to see the momentum with people like Red Hat. You see others coming up and realizing how OpenShift has gone to market as being, like you were saying, partnering with those Clouds and really making it simple. I think the simplicity and the manageability of Kubernetes is going to be at the forefront. I think a lot of the investment is still going into, how do I bring observability and DevOps and AIOps and MLOps all together. And I think that's going to be a big place where people are going to be looking to see what comes out of CubeCon in Amsterdam. I think it's that manageability ease of use. >> Well Rob, I look forward to working with you on behalf of the whole Cube team. We're going to do more of these and go out to some shows extract the signal from the noise. Really appreciate you coming into our studio. >> Well, thank you for having me on. Really appreciate it. >> You're really welcome. All right, keep it right there, or thanks for watching. This is Dave Vellante for the Cube. And we'll see you next time. (light music)

>>Hey guys and girls, welcome back to Motor City, Lisa Martin here with John Furrier on the Cube's third day of coverage of Coon Cloud Native Con North America. John, we've had some great conversations over the last two and a half days. We've been talking about identity and security management as a critical need for enterprises within the cloud native space. We're gonna have another quick conversation >>On that. Yeah, we got a great segment coming up from someone who's been in the industry, a long time expert, running a great company. Now it's gonna be one of those pieces that fits into what we call super cloud. Others are calling cloud operating system. Some are calling just Cloud 2.0, 3.0. But there's definitely a major trend happening around how cloud is going Next generation. We've been covering it. So this segment should be >>Great. Let's unpack those trends. One of our alumni is back with us, O Rika Zi, co-founder and CEO of Aerio. Omri. Great to have you back on the >>Cube. Thank you. Great to be here. >>So identity move to the cloud, Access authorization did not talk to us about why you found it assertive, what you guys are doing and how you're flipping that script. >>Yeah, so back 15 years ago, I helped start Azure at Microsoft. You know, one of the first few folks that you know, really focused on enterprise services within the Azure family. And at the time I was working for the guy who ran all of Windows server and you know, active directory. He called it the linchpin workload for the Windows Server franchise, like big words. But what he meant was we had 95% market share and all of these new SAS applications like ServiceNow and you know, Workday and salesforce.com, they had to invent login and they had to invent access control. And so we were like, well, we're gonna lose it unless we figure out how to replace active directory. And that's how Azure Active Directory was born. And the first thing that we had to do as an industry was fix identity, right? Yeah. So, you know, we worked on things like oof Two and Open, Id Connect and SAML and Jot as an industry and now 15 years later, no one has to go build login if you don't want to, right? You have companies like Odd Zero and Okta and one login Ping ID that solve that problem solve single sign-on, on the web. But access Control hasn't really moved forward at all in the last 15 years. And so my co-founder and I who were both involved in the early beginnings of Azure Active directory, wanted to go back to that problem. And that problem is even bigger than identity and it's far from >>Solved. Yeah, this is huge. I think, you know, self-service has been a developer thing that's, everyone knows developer productivity, we've all experienced click sign in with your LinkedIn or Twitter or Google or Apple handle. So that's single sign on check. Now the security conversation kicks in. If you look at with this no perimeter and cloud, now you've got multi-cloud or super cloud on the horizon. You've got all kinds of opportunities to innovate on the security paradigm. I think this is kind of where I'm hearing the most conversation around access control as well as operationally eliminating a lot of potential problems. So there's one clean up the siloed or fragmented access and two streamlined for security. What's your reaction to that? Do you agree? And if not, where, where am I missing that? >>Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the life of an IT pro, you know, back in the two thousands they had, you know, l d or active directory, they add in one place to configure groups and they'd map users to groups. And groups typically corresponded to roles and business applications. And it was clunky, but life was pretty simple. And now they live in dozens or hundreds of different admin consoles. So misconfigurations are rampant and over provisioning is a real problem. If you look at zero trust and the principle of lease privilege, you know, all these applications have these course grained permissions. And so when you have a breach, and it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when you wanna limit the blast radius of you know what happened, and you can't do that unless you have fine grained access control. So all those, you know, all those reasons together are forcing us as an industry to come to terms with the fact that we really need to revisit access control and bring it to the age of cloud. >>You guys recently, just this week I saw the blog on Topaz. Congratulations. Thank you. Talk to us about what that is and some of the gaps that's gonna help sarto to fill for what's out there in the marketplace. >>Yeah, so right now there really isn't a way to go build fine grains policy based real time access control based on open source, right? We have the open policy agent, which is a great decision engine, but really optimized for infrastructure scenarios like Kubernetes admission control. And then on the other hand, you have this new, you know, generation of access control ideas. This model called relationship based access control that was popularized by Google Zanzibar system. So Zanzibar is how they do access control for Google Docs and Google Drive. If you've ever kind of looked at a Google Doc and you know you're a viewer or an owner or a commenter, Zanzibar is the system behind it. And so what we've done is we've married these two things together. We have a policy based system, OPPA based system, and at the same time we've brought together a directory, an embedded directory in Topaz that allows you to answer questions like, does this user have this permission on this object? And bringing it all together, making it open sources a real game changer from our perspective, real >>Game changer. That's good to hear. What are some of the key use cases that it's gonna help your customers address? >>So a lot of our customers really like the idea of policy based access management, but they don't know how to bring data to that decision engine. And so we basically have a, you know, a, a very opinionated way of how to model that data. So you import data out of your identity providers. So you connect us to Okta or oze or Azure, Azure Active directory. And so now you have the user data, you can define groups and then you can define, you know, your object hierarchy, your domain model. So let's say you have an applicant tracking system, you have nouns like job, you know, know job descriptions or candidates. And so you wanna model these things and you want to be able to say who has access to, you know, the candidates for this job, for example. Those are the kinds of rules that people can express really easily in Topaz and in assertive. >>What are some of the challenges that are happening right now that dissolve? What, what are you looking at to solve? Is it complexity, sprawl, logic problems? What's the main problem set you guys >>See? Yeah, so as organizations grow and they have more and more microservices, each one of these microservices does authorization differently. And so it's impossible to reason about the full surface area of, you know, permissions in your application. And more and more of these organizations are saying, You know what, we need a standard layer for this. So it's not just Google with Zanzibar, it's Intuit with Oddy, it's Carta with their own oddy system, it's Netflix, you know, it's Airbnb with heed. All of them are now talking about how they solve access control extracted into its own service to basically manage complexity and regain agility. The other thing is all about, you know, time to market and, and tco. >>So, so how do you work with those services? Do you replace them, you unify them? What is the approach that you're taking? >>So basically these organizations are saying, you know what? We want one access control service. We want all of our microservices to call that thing instead of having to roll out our own. And so we, you know, give you the guts for that service, right? Topaz is basically the way that you're gonna go implement an access control service without having to go build it the same way that you know, large companies like Airbnb or Google or, or a car to >>Have. What's the competition look like for you guys? I'm not really seeing a lot of competition out there. Are there competitors? Are there different approaches? What makes you different? >>Yeah, so I would say that, you know, the biggest competitor is roll your own. So a lot of these companies that find us, they say, We're sick and tired of investing 2, 3, 4 engineers, five engineers on this thing. You know, it's the gift that keeps on giving. We have to maintain this thing and so we can, we can use your solution at a fraction of the cost a, a fifth, a 10th of what it would cost us to maintain it locally. There are others like Sty for example, you know, they are in the space, but more in on the infrastructure side. So they solve the problem of Kubernetes submission control or things like that. So >>Rolling your own, there's a couple problems there. One is do they get all the corner cases who built a they still, it's a company. Exactly. It's heavy lifting, it's undifferentiated, you just gotta check the box. So probably will be not optimized. >>That's right. As Bezo says, only focus on the things that make your beer taste better. And access control is one of those things. It's part of your security, you know, posture, it's a critical thing to get right, but you know, I wanna work on access control, said no developer ever, right? So it's kind of like this boring, you know, like back office thing that you need to do. And so we give you the mechanisms to be able to build it securely and robustly. >>Do you have a, a customer story example that is one of your go-tos that really highlights how you're improving developer productivity? >>Yeah, so we have a couple of them actually. So there's the largest third party B2B marketplace in the us. Free retail. Instead of building their own, they actually brought in aer. And what they wanted to do with AER was be the authorization layer for both their externally facing applications as well as their internal apps. So basically every one of their applications now hooks up to AER to do authorization. They define users and groups and roles and permissions in one place and then every application can actually plug into that instead of having to roll out their own. >>I'd like to switch gears if you don't mind. I get first of all, great update on the company and progress. I'd like to get your thoughts on the cloud computing market. Obviously you were your legendary position, Azure, I mean look at the, look at the progress over the past few years. Just been spectacular from Microsoft and you set the table there. Amazon web service is still, you know, thundering away even though earnings came out, the market's kind of soft still. You know, you see the cloud hyperscalers just continuing to differentiate from software to chips. Yep. Across the board. So the hyperscalers kicking ass taking names, doing great Microsoft right up there. What's the future? Cuz you now have the conversation where, okay, we're calling it super cloud, somebody calling multi-cloud, somebody calling it distributed computing, whatever you wanna call it. The old is now new again, it just looks different as cloud becomes now the next computer industry, >>You got an operating system, you got applications, you got hardware, I mean it's all kind of playing out just on a massive global scale, but you got regions, you got all kinds of connected systems edge. What's your vision on how this plays out? Because things are starting to fall into place. Web assembly to me just points to, you know, app servers are coming back, middleware, Kubernetes containers, VMs are gonna still be there. So you got the progression. What's your, what's your take on this? How would you share, share your thoughts to a friend or the industry, the audience? So what's going on? What's, what's happening right now? What's, what's going on? >>Yeah, it's funny because you know, I remember doing this quite a few years ago with you probably in, you know, 2015 and we were talking about, back then we called it hybrid cloud, right? And it was a vision, but it is actually what's going on. It just took longer for it to get here, right? So back then, you know, the big debate was public cloud or private cloud and you know, back when we were, you know, talking about these ideas, you know, we said, well you know, some applications will always stay on-prem and some applications will move to the cloud. I was just talking to a big bank and they basically said, look, our stated objective now is to move everything we can to the public cloud and we still have a large private cloud investment that will never go away. And so now we have essentially this big operating system that can, you know, abstract all of this stuff. So we have developer platforms that can, you know, sit on top of all these different pieces of infrastructure and you know, kind of based on policy decide where these applications are gonna be scheduled. So, you know, the >>Operating schedule shows like an operating system function. >>Exactly. I mean like we now, we used to have schedulers for one CPU or you know, one box, then we had schedulers for, you know, kind of like a whole cluster and now we have schedulers across the world. >>Yeah. My final question before we kind of get run outta time is what's your thoughts on web assembly? Cuz that's getting a lot of hype here again to kind of look at this next evolution again that's lighter weight kind of feels like an app server kind of direction. What's your, what's your, it's hyped up now, what's your take on that? >>Yeah, it's interesting. I mean back, you know, what's, what's old is new again, right? So, you know, I remember back in the late nineties we got really excited about, you know, JVMs and you know, this notion of right once run anywhere and yeah, you know, I would say that web assembly provides a pretty exciting, you know, window into that where you can take the, you know, sandboxing technology from the JavaScript world, from the browser essentially. And you can, you know, compile an application down to web assembly and have it real, really truly portable. So, you know, we see for example, policies in our world, you know, with opa, one of the hottest things is to take these policies and can compile them to web assemblies so you can actually execute them at the edge, you know, wherever it is that you have a web assembly runtime. >>And so, you know, I was just talking to Scott over at Docker and you know, they're excited about kind of bringing Docker packaging, OCI packaging to web assemblies. So we're gonna see a convergence of all these technologies right now. They're kind of each, each of our, each of them are in a silo, but you know, like we'll see a lot of the patterns, like for example, OCI is gonna become the packaging format for web assemblies as it is becoming the packaging format for policies. So we did the same thing. We basically said, you know what, we want these policies to be packaged as OCI assembly so that you can sign them with cosign and bring the entire ecosystem of tools to bear on OCI packages. So convergence is I think what >>We're, and love, I love your attitude too because it's the open source community and the developers who are actually voting on the quote defacto standard. Yes. You know, if it doesn't work, right, know people know about it. Exactly. It's actually a great new production system. >>So great momentum going on to the press released earlier this week, clearly filling the gaps there that, that you and your, your co-founder saw a long time ago. What's next for the assertive business? Are you hiring? What's going on there? >>Yeah, we are really excited about launching commercially at the end of this year. So one of the things that we were, we wanted to do that we had a promise around and we delivered on our promise was open sourcing our edge authorizer. That was a huge thing for us. And we've now completed, you know, pretty much all the big pieces for AER and now it's time to commercially launch launch. We already have customers in production, you know, design partners, and you know, next year is gonna be the year to really drive commercialization. >>All right. We will be watching this space ery. Thank you so much for joining John and me on the keep. Great to have you back on the program. >>Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. >>Our pleasure as well For our guest and John Furrier, I'm Lisa Martin, you're watching The Cube Live. Michelle floor of Con Cloud Native Con 22. This is day three of our coverage. We will be back with more coverage after a short break. See that.

>>Modernizing applications can be a complicated situation. For many folks, it's useful to have some best practices and tangible steps that can remove friction and yield some quick wins. We're now joined by couch based CTO, Ravi meam, who will cover how organizations can approach application modernization, what role the cloud plays and what you need to know about building a business case. Ravi, welcome back to the cube. Good to see you again. >>Very good to see you. Thanks for having me, Dave. >>Yes, our pleasure. Uh, according to a recent couch based digital transformation survey that you guys ran, it was about a 650 respondents, CIOs, CTOs, et cetera. The inertia of legacy technology held back according to the respondents, 82% of enterprises from modernizing their portfolios in 2021. So I wanna talk about the what and the why of modernization. Robbie, what does application modernization mean to you and why is it top of mind for organizations? >>Yeah, I think there have been multiple forces at work here for a while and they have all come to a tipping point with, uh, the pandemic and, uh, uh, it's a combination of factors and, uh, the legacy technologies were built for a different generation of applications. So it's a generational shift that we are undergoing. Uh, part of it is the, the consumption model, which is all cloud based and pay as you go kinda stuff. The other is edge is in the middle of a lot of these conversations together with, uh, the velocity variety, um, of data that you have to actually sort of consume and results that you need to produce. These were all not what the, sort of the, the infrastructure of hold on, which the applications were built on, uh, uh, stand for. So the infrastructure, the substrate requires modernization, uh, in order for the businesses to transform themselves, that's, what's going on. >>We call it digital transformation from a technology perspective, but it's businesses that are transforming, uh, the business models, uh, in front of our eyes. Uh, you know, we have seen the media go from, uh, set up boxes to streaming everywhere, um, like that every business eCommerce has changed, uh, the way we sort of, uh, do any business gaming has changed, uh, the, the banking industry, the healthcare, everything is changing, uh, in terms of the fundamental movement, if you, if you could, uh, sort of say that is to reach the consumer directly and sort of dis intermediate intermediaries. And in that process, the technologies that we had used to build the, the, you know, last previous generation of applications, no longer scale, no longer a nimble enough, uh, no longer cater to the modern, uh, the needs of the modern data and the infrastructure on which, uh, we are standing of these applications. So that's, what's driving the modernization effort. And, uh, in, in that, uh, you know, we have always started say that few years ago, that data is the new oil. Um, so that plays a very critical role in how the data silos and infrastructure that enterprises have is what's holding them back. And, uh, this whole effort is, uh, in, in, in terms of modernizing that infrastructure, uh, through the modern means of, uh, uh, the cloud computing, uh, the modern serverless architectures and microservices, and, uh, the edge and AI play play an important role in this. >>So we're gonna hear later from Amdocs, uh, about their modernization and where couch base helps and fits, but I'd love to hear your perspective as to how couch base helps organizations modernize. >>Right. I think one of the, uh, uh, fundamental things that has happened is that in the last 30, 40 odd years, the data infrastructure has sort of become, uh, a sprawl. Uh, we had built multiple systems, uh, uh, relational databases, cash is, uh, search systems, analytical systems, uh, all, uh, requiring for us to move the data, uh, from one system to the other, in order for you to get the value from those. And this is basically what we call as a data sprawl or database sprawl. And this leads to so many sort of, uh, downstream effects all the way from, uh, data not being available, uh, at the time when the engagement, uh, when the customer is engaged to data governance, security and all those issues, because the threat surface area is wide. And now you're putting all this infrastructure on the modern sort of cloud computing paradigm and, and the costs are sort of ballooning. >>And, uh, because those older infrastructures that were built, uh, when you deploy them on the cloud, uh, it, it creates its ads to the, uh, the complexity of this brawl and on top of the, the cost of this. So, uh, a system like couch base is what, um, uh, simplifies this brawl for, uh, our customers. And it is built for the modern, uh, sort of requirements of scale and performance, low latency, and the flexibility, uh, of being able to sort of not have to go through this whole sort of cycle of whenever you have to have a, a change in your application that touches your data, uh, that it, it actually creates a huge tool in those upgrades and all those life cycle having to CA carry pagers. Uh, I mean, that doesn't work anymore in these days of, I know, five, nine up times and, uh, 24 7, 365 availability of, uh, your services, uh, is so in that area is where couch base sort of helps, uh, our customers to modernize, uh, their sort of data infrastructure. >>It, uh, fuses, um, the multiple technologies that were spread across, uh, into one platform. So it gives a, a simpler programming paradigm, uh, that is one way to scale manage, administer, uh, patch, upgrade. All that mechanism is sort of not just thought through and automated, but it also sort of centralized this, uh, whole thing simplifies at the end of the day, uh, that total task of managing, uh, because that the volume of data that you have to manage now is, you know, orders of magnitude three to four orders of magnitude more than, uh, what it was just a few years ago. And, uh, so in that, uh, containing the sprawl, uh, agility of development, uh, are, are sort of, and the simplicity of deployment and management are some of the key capabilities that, uh, enterprises look to us to solve. And in that, bringing in all the way from cloud to multi-cloud to edge, uh, is how this sort of strategy evolves for enterprises. >>So square this circle for me, cuz in the panel we just had, there's a lot of agreement with what you just said, lift and shift of legacy platforms, doesn't work. Uh, it might work for the cloud vendor to get the data in the cloud, but it generally doesn't work for the customer. And you mentioned sprawl, we talked about this in the panel about, you know, data by its very nature is distributed. We talked about data mesh. There's a lot of skepticism around data mesh, but that that's cool. And you mentioned edge, so yes, I'm interested in the cloud's role here is the idea that you're actually putting all this stuff in one place. How does that fit with the edge? Maybe you could help us understand you're thinking of that and where the cloud fits. >>Yes. Um, you know, it's about, uh, centralizing a data up to a point and decentralizing it's in the magic of how you actually enable that. Um, uh, for example, just your traffic signal, your car, uh, or if you're on a cruise ship, each one is an edge, they all generate petabytes of data. And then you basically, uh, you can consume that, but if you're gonna stream all this data to a centralized place like a cloud that's, uh, you know, most of the data actually is not something that you're gonna store forever. Those are, you know, topical and that information is required at the edge. You should synthesize that information and take the noise from it and discard the signal. So that's where the edge, uh, typically the edge is not some, you know, personal device alone or uh, uh, or a IOT sensor sending data that is also, uh, sort of, uh, one, one element of the edge, but the edge is about decentralizing the cloud. >>So to say, so you can have mul your topologies of not having all your data sit in the cloud centralize someplace behind five firewalls. So when your application tries to reach that all the latency comes into place. So that's what you want to, uh, decentralize and have the data available as close to the engagement of the data with the consumer of it. So in that is the decentralization strategy where you can have multiple techologies, a three, a mesh, uh, however you choose to so that you get to get the data closest. Um, it could be a mobile device. Uh, it could be a, a smaller deployment of a server. It could be, uh, uh, a personal electronic device like watch, or it could be all the way in the IOT gateway. These are the various sort of decentralization of the data that has to happen. >>So it's about moving the data fastest. It's almost like CDN of the data is what, uh, sorry. Uh, for those it's, um, content delivery network is what CDN stands for, where we used to actually move static content in the good old days. That's what made, made our webpages faster. Now we can actually move live data that much faster by using replication technology. So when you move the data towards, towards the edge, what you're trying to do is bring that data closer, uh, to the compute where it's actually happening, as opposed to keeping the data centralized someplace back in the cloud and server and all your application logic is actually sitting on the device or on the edge. So you're constantly, uh, shoveling the data from the cloud to the edge, from edge to the cloud at the time of compute, as opposed to having it available at the time of, uh, um, the consumption of the data. >>That's where the paradigm, uh, shift is actually happening. And, uh, this basically is not about better user experience. It's also about backend networking, other costs that you can actually, uh, gain from, by not having to sort of repeatedly sort of shovel data back and forth. So that's stage strategy that, uh, enterprises are adopting. Now, this is become so to say core part of the architecture of modernization, uh, uh, in terms of where everybody can see this has to move to and, uh, our edge and mobile product, um, also plays a role in, uh, that's one of the other elements aspects of it that customers to look us, uh, look to us >>For. So it's a balance and couch base can play in both places. A lot of the data, if I heard you correctly at the edge is ephemeral, but if I want to do, you know, AI inferencing in real time, I gotta do it at the edge. I can't send it back to the cloud and, and, and do the modeling, you know, post-proces, that's not gonna work. All right, let's talk about the business case, you know, we've, we we've hit on the what and the why, but, you know, how does it get paid for companies sometimes struggle to plan for and budget appropriately for their outcomes? Yes. What do customers need to know about how do they get this past the CFO's office for, in the other business decision makers? >>I think there is an opportunity cost, uh, with the sort of lack of modernization, uh, if, uh, people are doing their classic sort of, so to say it style budgeting, uh, then it will just look like we have to modernize, uh, you know, some older infrastructure. It's not about that. It's about modernizing or making your business relevant, uh, to, uh, to the consumers, because the way consumers, uh, go about consuming your services now is very different from the way you had originally imagined and built for. And in that lies the, the, the transformation, uh, not to see this as a, it, uh, just as an it infrastructure modernization, but more from the standpoint of business transformation and, uh, the tooling that is required for this business transformation to be successful. So it requires the involvement of, um, not leaving it to just, you know, uh, uh, it oriented sort of, uh, uh, thinking of modernizing, but from the standpoint of looking at the, the, the business and what are the transformations that they need to, if they don't keep up with the Jones, they, in this digital divide, they may find themselves in the sort of either the wrong side or in the chasm. >>So I think that mindset, uh, that I was, uh, sort of in addition to sort of, uh, it pushing for this, uh, it's got to have a C-suite, uh, sponsorship understanding and, uh, sort of champion of this, then those initiatives will succeed because, uh, it's not just the technology transformation. It is accompanied by business and sort of, so to say cultural transformation inside the enterprise. >>Yeah. And it's interesting in the survey, it was very much it, you know, survey, I get that and, and the, it pros, the CIOs, et cetera, felt that, that, that, that the it organization was largely responsible for the digital strategy. And I think that was largely a function of, we just came out of the, the pandemic or Hopely coming out of the pandemic. And so they had all these tactical needs, but now you're saying step back, align with the business, make sure the C suite's involved, and that's gonna reduce the friction of, of getting this stuff paid for. >>Correct. And, you know, the, uh, this observation was also there. If you, I must have noticed that, you know, many, uh, of these sort of transf strategies, if you just leave it to like an it thing, they end up being reactive. Uh, but the proactive strategies are the one that actually, uh, succeed because they understand that this is a sort of enterprise transformation. It could be disruptive. Uh, it is what is required for the enterprise to get to the, uh, to the next level, uh, or to be, uh, in this, to be relevant in this sort of modern economy, if you would. So I think that is what, uh, what people are reacting to is the fact that this pandemic has pushed people to modernize quickly. And that may have happened as a reaction to the reality of the situation, but more and more, uh, uh, even among these strategies and more and more initiatives that people are taking, they may have sort of a longer term sort of thinking in this, uh, that requires the, uh, definitely without it's not gonna succeed and they're gonna be in the middle and they'll be, uh, in the forefront of many technology decisions that we have to make, but having a, a C-suite level sponsorship. >>In addition to that, with the impetus of what is the business transformation, this is actually going to achieve, um, those you will see will succeed a lot more because otherwise you, we see that, you know, good, good number of what 80% of these projects fail or, or, or they suffer delays or scale back or never get started, uh, because, you know, uh, the understanding of what is the business value of it is perhaps not, not clearly articulated instead, it just becomes a, a technology modernization conversation without that company benefit. >>Yeah. Got it. Okay. Uh, you guys recently announced some updates to your platform. Can you run us through the, the highlights, you know, what the customers get and, and how it relates to this conversation modernizing application strategies? >>Yes. So, uh, well, we will be, uh, releasing our couch base server 7.1. And, uh, that is what will be the sort of underneath platform for our, the couch base, uh, Capella, which is the, our DBA both, uh, have exciting innovations, um, that we would be putting out. Uh, let me just run through a few things, uh, on the, uh, uh, couch based server seven one, because there are some, uh, amazing, uh, capabilities we have introduced there. We are really excited about the opportunities. This brings couch based into play. Uh, first is we have a, uh, a brand new storage engine that we put in there, which, uh, significant significantly, uh, reduces the, uh, the cost of running couch base. Uh, with this capability, we can actually consume lot less memory and that's, that is like a 10 X improvement on this one. So from that standpoint, we are 10 X more efficient in terms of resource consumption, the expensive memory oriented resource consumption. >>This now allows couch based to sort of not just cater to those high performance, um, you know, hyperscale scenarios that we are known for, but also the more, the classic BIS oriented, uh, applications, which are not that performance sensitive, but they're more cost sensitive. So that's a huge, uh, step forward for couch base because there are a lot more, uh, opportunities where sort of, we become, uh, that much more, uh, cost efficient for enterprises to run. And this is something that, uh, many enterprises have asked for, and we know, uh, many more use cases where we would be more relevant with that innovation. And this has been a, a sort of a long journey building storage engines is, uh, you know, uh, is a very difficult Endover. And we took that on knowing that, uh, what we can achieve here would be a game changer, uh, for couch base. >>And in terms of how, uh, uh, the consolidation of multiple things that you can do in our platform just got this sort of boost of being able to do a lot more with lot less resources. In addition to that, we have done enhancements to our analytics service, uh, with, uh, the work that we have done there. Uh, it, it can sort of do a lot more, um, uh, availability, uh, of the, of, of the analytics service, uh, which, uh, will strengthens the analytics side of the product, which now allows you to run analysis O on J O uh, straight up without requiring the operational side of the, uh, the database. So you can just simply do, uh, straight off analytics stuff, because it, it, it can now, uh, give you the higher availability and disaster recovery that you would want if you're gonna depend on these, uh, systems with that, we are done over some, uh, real good work with Tableau integration, which makes it easy to visualize this, um, uh, uh, and, uh, one other important capability we introduce here is the, um, on, in the entire platform is what we call as user defined functions. >>This now allows us to write custom logic and Java script in the server couch based server. This is, this helps you write procedural logic in the middle of, uh, SQL queries, which is a humongous capability that, you know, and the classical systems process. Now, with that, we have closed the gap. If you know, how to program to sort of classical operational systems, pretty much, you have one to one equivalence of that, uh, in couch. So if you come from the good relational world, uh, it would be very easy breeze for you to understand how to program in this modern, no SQL systems, which both supports, um, uh, SQL as well as the classic asset transaction capabilities. And last, uh, we expanded the support two arm processors, and typically, uh, arm processes, at least save you quarter of, uh, your budget because of it being that much more, uh, uh, cost efficient in terms of, uh, its operational and power capabilities. >>So with that net net, uh, couch based server becomes a lot more, um, uh, cost efficient. And at the same time, it also in one, well becomes that database server, which can both handle your in memory, uh, capabilities that, that speed and hyperscale, as well as, uh, the classical use cases of being, uh, disk, uh, disoriented, uh, classical relational database use cases. Nice. So that, that, that rounds out our offering, it's been a long journey for us to get here from being the high performance, uh, low latency system to, uh, the classical database use case >>Assessment. Yeah. I mean, that's great. You got, you got memory optimization, you mentioned the, the, the, the arm base. Now you're on that curve, which is great software companies love when you get cheaper, faster hardware, uh, you making it easy to speak the language of, you know, traditional stuff. So that's awesome. Um, you and I, you mentioned, uh, Capella, you and I talked about, yes, at couch base connects Capella. You've been moving hard with your DBA strategy, how's it going? And then beyond these announcements, what's what should we look for from couch base? >>You know, uh, our fundamental, uh, mission is to make the developer experience, um, that much more easier, that much, uh, to move all the frictions that, that has existed for developers to adopt couch base. And, uh, the Capella strategy is to leverage the cloud. So you have number one, the ease of development, just bring your browsers, start to learn, develop even simple sample applications and deploy them from there. You can scale, and you can have production level deployments, that whole journey of a developer, along with the ability to sort of have your a, you know, metered billing and pay as you go, uh, uh, pricing, uh, so that it becomes easier for developers to sort of consume this and, uh, show the value of what they can build here. That is our, um, sort of journey of bringing it closer, uh, to our developers and make it simpler for them to sort of, uh, get started and build the, the mission critical applications that they have trusted to build on couch base, to become that much more simpler, faster, and easier for them. So that's the journey. So that's the kind of announcements you will see coming out in Capella. And for that this, this seven one server is, is the platform on which we, we are sort of adding those capabilities to make a Capella that much easier for developers to adopt >>Outstanding. You've been busy and it looks like you've got a lot of value. Yes. All right, we're gonna have to leave it there. Robbie, up next, we bring on the customer perspective with Amdocs. They've got a real world example of a modernization journey that they go through. They had to modernize legacy Oracle WebLogic infrastructure with a microservices architecture, and of course, couch base, keep it right there. You're watching the cube.

(bright upbeat music) >> Hi, everyone, welcome back to theCUBE's Unstoppable Domains Partner Showcase. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This segment in this session is about expansion into Asia Pacific and Europe for Unstoppable Domains. It's a hot startup in the Web3 area, really creating a new innovation around NFTs, crypto, single sign-on, and digital identity, giving users the power like they should. We've got two great guests, Sajjad Rehman, Head of Europe, and Nilkanth, known as Nil, Iyer, head of Asia. Sajjad, Nil, welcome to this CUBE, and let's talk about the expansion. It's not really an expansion, the global economy is global, but showcase here about Unstoppables going to Europe. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for inviting us. >> Thanks John, for inviting us. >> So we're living in a global world, obviously, crypto, blockchain, decentralized applications. You're starting to see mainstream adoption, which means the shift is happening. There are more apps coming, and it means more infrastructure, and things got to get easier, right? So, reduce the steps it takes to do stuff, makes the wallets better, give people more secure access and control of their data. This is what Unstoppable is all about. You guys are in the middle of it, you're on this wave. What is the potential of Web3 with Unstoppable, and in general, in Asia and in Europe? >> I can go first. So, now, let's look at the Asia market. I mean, typically, we see the US market, the Europe markets, for typical Web 2.0 software and infrastructure is definitely the larger markets, with US typically accounting for about 60%, and Europe about 20 to 30%, and Asia has always been small. But we see in this whole world of blockchain, crypto, Web 3.0, Asia already has about 160 million users. They have more than 35 local exchanges. And if you really look at the number of countries, in terms of the rate of adoption, many of the Asian countries, which probably you'd have never even heard of, like Vietnam, actually topping the list, right? One of the reasons that this is happening, again, if you go through the Asian Development Bank's latest report, you have these Gen Zs and millennials, of that's 50% of the Asian population. And if you really look at 50% of the Asian population, that's 1.1 billion people out of the total, 1.8 billion Gen Z and millennials that you have have in the world. And these folks are digitally native, they're people, in fact, the Gen Zs are mobile first, and millennials, many of us, like myself, at least, are people who are digital, and 20% of the world's economy is currently digital, and the rest, 40 to 50%, which is going to happen in the Web 3.0 world, and that's going to be driven by millennials and Gen Zs. I think that's why this whole space is so exciting, because it's being driven by the users, by the new generation. I mean, that's my broad thought on this whole thing. >> Before we get get this started, I want to just comment, Asia, also, in other areas where mobile first came, you had the younger demographics absolutely driving the change, because they're like, "Well, I don't want the old way." They go right from scratch at the beginning, they're using the technologies. That has propelled the crypto world. I mean, that is absolutely true. Everyone's kind of seeing that. And that's now influencing some of these developer nations, like say, in Europe, for instance, and even North America, I think Europe's more advanced than North America, in my opinion, but we'll get to that. Oh, so potential in Europe. Sajjad, take us through your thoughts on... As head of Europe, for our audience. >> Absolutely, so, Nil's right. I think Asia is way ahead in terms of Gen Z user adopting crypto, Europe is actually a distant second, but it's surprising to note that Europe actually has the highest transactional activity in crypto over the last year and a half. And if you dig a bit deeper, I'd say, arguably, for Europe, I think the opportunity in Web3 is perhaps the largest. And then perhaps it can mean the most for Europe. Europe, for the last decade, has been trailing behind Asia and North America, when it comes to birthing unicorns, and I think Web3 can provide a StepChain opportunity. This belief, for me, stems from the fact that Europe's policy, right, like, for example, GDPR, is focused on enabling your data ownership. And I think I recently read a very good paper out of Stanford, by Patrick Henson. He speaks about Web3 being the best part, here, for Europe enabling patient sovereignty. So what that means is users control the data, they're paying to enter it, and they harness the value from it. And on one hand, while Europe is enabling that regulation, that's entered in that code, Web3 actually brings it into action. So I think with more enablement, better regulation, and we'll see more hubs, like the Crypto Valley in Switzerland pop up, that will bring, I think, I'd rather be careful, better to say, not over-regulation, the right regulation. We can expect more in prop capital, more builder talent, that then drives more adoption. So I think the prospects for Europe in terms of usage, as well as builders, are quite bright. >> Yeah, and I think, also, you guys are in areas where the cultural shift is so dramatic. You mentioned Asia, the demographics, even the entrepreneurial culture in Europe right now is booming. You look at all the venture-backed startups, and the young generation building companies! And again, cloud computing is a big part of that, obviously. But look at, compared to the United States, you go back 15 years ago, Europe was way behind, on the startup scene. Now it's booming and pumping on all cylinders. And it kind of points at this cultural shift. It's almost like a generational... It's like the digital hippies changing the world. The Web3, it's kind of, "I don't want to be Web2, Web2 is so old, I don't want to do that." And then it's all because it's changing, right? And there are things inadequate with Web2, on the naming system. Also the arbitrage around fake information, bots, users being manipulated, and also merchandised and monetized through these portals. Okay, that's kind of ending. So talk about the dynamic of Web2, 3, at those areas. You've got users and you've got companies, who build applications. They're going to shift and be forced, in our opinion, and I want to get your reaction to that. Do you think applications are going to have to be Web3, or users will reject them? >> Yeah, I think that I'll jump in and add to there in Nil's part. I think the Web3 is built on three principles, right? They're decentralization, ownership, and composability. And I think these are not binary. So if I look further on in the future, I don't see a future where you have just Web3. I think there's going to be coexistence or cooperation between Web2 companies, Web3, building bridges. I think there's going to be... There's a sliding scale to decentralization, versus centralization. Similarly, ownership. And I think users will find what works best for them in different contexts. I think what Unstoppable is doing is essentially providing the identity system for Web3, and that's way more powerful when it comes to being built on blockchains, than with the naming system we had for Web2, right? The identity system can serve the purpose of taking a user's personal identifier, password, blockchain, domain name, and attaching all kinds of attributes that define who you are, both in the physical and digital world, and filling out information that you can transact on the basis of. And I think the users would, as we go to a no-code and low-code future, right, where in Web2, more of the users were essentially consumers, or readers of the internet. And in Web3, with more low-code and no-code technology platforms taking shape and getting proliferation, you would see more users being actually writers, publishers, and developers on the internet. And they would value owning their data, and to harness the most amount of value from it. So I think that's the power concept, and I think that's the future I see, where Web3 will dominate. Nil, what do you think? >> Well, I think you put it very, very nicely, Sajjad. I think you covered most of the points, I think. But I'm seeing a lot of different things that are happening at the ground. I think a lot of the governments, a lot of the Web 2.0 players, the traditional banks, these guys are not sitting quiet on the blockchain space. There are a lot of pilots happening in the blockchain space, right? I mean, I can give you real life examples. I mean, one of the biggest examples is in my home state of Maharashtra, where Mumbai is. They actually partnered with Polygon (MATIC), right? Actually built a private blockchain-based capability to kind of deliver your COVID vaccination certificates with the QR code, right? And that's the only way they could deliver that kind of volumes in that short a time, with the kind of user control, the user control the user has on the data. That could only be possible because of blockchain. Of course, it's still private, because it's healthcare data, they still want to keep it, something that's not fully on a blockchain. But that is something. Similarly, there is a consortium of about nine banks who have actually trying to work on making things like remittances or trade finance much, much easier. I mean, remittances through a traditional, Web 2.0 world is very, very costly. And especially in the Asian countries, a lot of people from Southeast Asia work across the world and send back money home. It's a very costly and a time-taking affair. So they have actually partnered and built a blockchain-based capability, again, in a pilot stage, to kind of reduce the transaction costs. For example, if you just look at the trade finance days where there are 14 million traders, who do 2.4, 5 trillion dollars, of transaction, they were able to actually reduce the time that it takes from eight to nine days, to about two to three days. And so, to add on to what you're saying, I think these two worlds are going to meet, and meet very soon. And when they meet, what they need is a single digital identity, a human-readable way of being able to send and receive and do commerce. I think that's where I see Unstoppable Domains, very nicely positioned to be able to integrate these two worlds, so that's my thought on all the logistics. >> That was a great point. I was going to get into which industries, and kind of what areas, you see in your geographies. But it's a good point about saving time. I like how you brought that up, because in these new waves, you either got to reduce the steps it takes to do something, or save time, make it easy. And this is the successful formula, in anything, whether it's an app or UI or whatever, but what specifically are they doing in your areas? And what about Unstoppable are they attracted to? Is it because of the identity? Is it because of the apps? Is it because of the single sign-on? What is the reason that they're leaning in, and unpacking this further into their pilots? >> Sajjad, do you want to take that? >> Yeah, absolutely, man. >> Because. >> Yeah, I'm happy. Please jump in if you want. So I think, and let me clarify the question, John, you're talking about Web2 companies, looking to partner in software, or potential partnerships, right? >> Yeah, what are they seeing, and what are they seeing as the value that these pilots we heard from Nilkanth around the financial industry? And obviously, gaming's one, it's obvious. Huge: financial, healthcare, I mean, these are obviously verticals that are going to be heavily impacted in a positive way. What are they seeing as value? What's getting them motivated to do these pilots? Why are they jumping in, with both feet, if you will, on these projects? Is it because it's saving money, is it time, or both, is it ease of use, is it the user's expectations? Trying to tease out how you guys see that evolving. >> Yeah, yeah, I think... This is still, the space is, the movement is going very fast, but I think the space is still young. And right now, a lot of these companies are seeing the potential that Web3 offers. And I think the key, key dimensions, right, composability, decentralization, and ownership. So I think the key thing I'm seeing in EU is these Web2 companies seeing the momentum and looking to harness that by enabling bridges to Web3. One of the key trends in Europe has been Fintech, I think over the last five to six years, we have the Revolut, N26, e-TOTAL creating platforms, new banks and super finance, super apps rising to the forefront. And they are all enabling, or also connecting a bridge with Web3 in some shape and form, either enabling creating of crypto, some are launching their own native wallets, and these are, essentially, ways that they can, one, attract users. So the Gen Z who are looking for more friction in finance, to get them on board, but also to look to enable more adoption by their own users, who are not using these services that potentially create new revenue streams, and create allocation of capital that they could not access, to have access to otherwise. So I think that's one trend I'm seeing over here. I think the other key trend is, in Europe, at least, has been games. And again, dead links or damaged, web creators would call the metaverse. So a lot of game companies are looking to step into Game Fire, which is, again, a completely different business model to what traditional game companies used to use. Similarly, metaverse is where again, ownership creates a different business model and they see that users and gamers of the future would want to engage with that, versus just being monetized on the basis of subscription or ads. And I think that's something that they're becoming aware of, and moving quickly in the space, launching their own metaverses, or game by applications. Or creating interoperability with these decentralized applications. >> You know, I wanted to get into this point, but I was going to ask about the community empowerment piece of this equation, 'cause digital identity is about the user's identity, which implies they're part of a community. Web3 is very community-centric. But you mentioned gaming, I mean, people who have been watching the gaming world, like ourselves, know that communities and marketplaces have been very active for years, many years, over 15 years. Community, games, currency, in-game activity, has been out there, right, but siloed within the games themselves. So now, it seems that that paradigm's coming in and empowering all communities. Is this something that you guys see and agree with? And if so, what's different about that? How are communities being empowered? I guess that's the question. >> Yeah, I can maybe take that, Sajjad. So, I mean, I must have heard of Axie Infinity, I mean, 40% of their user base is in Vietnam. And the average earning that a person makes in a month, out of playing this game, is more than the national, daily or minimum wage that is there, right? So that's the kind of potential. Actually, going back, as a combination of actually answering your earlier question, and I think over and above what Sajjad said, what's very unique in Asia is we still have a lot of unbanked people, right? So if you really look at the total unbanked population of the world, it's 1.6 billion, and 24% of that is in Asia, so almost 375 million people are in Asia. So these are people who do not have access to finance or credit. So the whole idea is, how do we get these people on to a banking system, onto peer-to-peer lending, or peer-to-peer finance kind of capabilities. I think, again, Unstoppable Domains kind of helps in that, right? If you just look at the pure Web 3.0 world, and the complex, technical way in which money or other crypto is transferred from one wallet to the other, it's very difficult for an unbanked person who probably cannot even do basic communication, cannot read and write, to actually be able to do it. But something that's very human-readable, something that's very easy for him to understand, something that's visual, something that he can see on his mobile. With 2G network, we are not talking of... The world is talking about 5G, but there are parts of Asia, which are still using 2G and 2.5G kind of network, right? So I think that's one key use case. I think the banks are trying to solve because for them, this is a whole new customer segment. And, sorry, I actually went back a little bit, to your earlier question, but coming to this whole community-building, right? So on March 8th, we're launching something called this Women of Web3, or, oh, that is WoW3, right? This is basically to, again, empower. So if you, again, look at Asia, women need a lot of training, they need a lot of enablement, for them to be able to leverage the power of Web 3.0. I can talk about India, of course, being from India. A lot of the women do not... They do all the small businesses, but the money is taken by middlemen, or taken by their husbands. With Web 3.0, fundamentally, the money comes to them, because that's what they use to educate their children. And it's the same thing in a lot of other Southeast Asian countries as well. I think it's very important to build those communities, communities of women entrepreneurs. I think this is a big opportunity to really get the section of society, which probably will take 10 more years, if we go through the normal Web1 to Web 2.0 progression, where the power is with corporations, and not with the individuals. >> And that's a great announcement, by the way, you mentioned the $10 million worth of domains being issued out for... This is democratization, it's what it's all about. Again, this is a new revolution. I mean, this is a new thing. So great stuff, more education, more learning. And going to get the banks up and running, get those people banking, 'cause once they're banking, they get wallets, right? So they need the wallets. So let's get to the real meat here. You guys are in the territory, Europe and Asia, where there's a lot of wallets. There's a lot of exchanges, 'cause that's... They're not in the United States. There's a few of them there, but most of them outside the United States. And you've got a lot of dApps developing, decentralized applications, okay? So you got all this coming together in your territory. What's the strategy, how you going to attack that? You got the wallets, you got the exchanges, and you got D applications. DApps. >> Yeah, I'm happy to (indistinct). So I think, and just quickly there, I think one point is, and Nil really expressed it beautifully, is finding inclusion. That is something that has inspired me, how Web3 can make the internet more inclusive. That inspired my move here. Yeah, I think, for us, I think we are at the base start when it comes to Europe, right? And the key focus, in terms of our approach in Europe would be that, we want to do two things. One, we want to increase the utility of these domain names. And the second thing is, we will invite proliferation with our partners. So when I speak about utility, I think utility is when you have a universal identifier, which is a domain name, and then you have these attributes around it, right? What then defines your identity. So in the context, in Europe, we would look to find partners to help us enrich that identity around the domain name. And that adds value for users, in terms of acquiring these domains and new clients. And on the other end, when it comes to proliferation, I think it's about working with all those crypto, and crypto and Web3, Web3 participants as well as Web3-adjacent companies, brands, and services, who can help us educate current and future, and upcoming Web3 users about the utility of domain names, and help us onboard them to the decentralized internet. So I think that's going to be the general focus. I think the key is that, as, oh, and hopefully, we'll be having one, overarching regulation, EU, that allowed us to do this at a vision level. But I would say I think it's going to be tackling it country by country, identifying countries where there's deeper penetration for Web3, and then making sure that we are partnered with local, trusted partners that are already developing for local communities there. So, yeah, that's my view and Nil, I believe those are wants in, for Asia. >> Oh, I think, yeah, so again, in Asia, one is you have a significant part of humanity living in Asia, right? So obviously, all the other challenges and the opportunities that we talk about, I think the first area of focus would be educating the people on the massive opportunity that they have, and if you're able to get them in early, I think it's great for them as well, right? Because by the time governments, regulations, large banking, financial companies move, but if you can get the larger population into this whole space, it's good for them, so they are first movers in that space. I think we are doing a lot of things on this, worldwide. I think we've done more than 100 past podcasts, just educating people on what is Web 3.0, what are NFT domains? What is DeFi, and so on and so forth. I think it would need some bit of localization, customization, in Asia, given that India itself has about 22 languages. And then there are the other countries which, each of them with their own local languages and syntax, semantics and all those things, right? So I think that that is very important, to be able to disseminate the knowledge, although it's global, but I think to get the grassroot people to understand the opportunity, I think it would need some amount of work there. I think also building communities, I think, John, you talked about communities, so did Sajjad talk about communities. I think it's very important to build communities, because communities create ideation. It talks about... People share their challenges, so that people don't repeat the same mistakes. So I think it's very important to build communities based on interest. I think we all know in the technology world, you can build communities around Elegram, Telegram, Discord, Twitter spaces, and all those things. But, again, when you're talking of financial inclusion, you're talking of a different kind of community-building. I think that that would be important. And then of course I will kind of, primarily from a company perspective, I think getting the 35 odd exchanges in Asia, the wallets to partner with us. Just as an example, MATIC. They had, until September of last year, about 3,500 apps. In just one quarter, it doubled to 7,000 dApps on their platform. But that is the pace, or the speed of innovation that we are seeing on this whole 3.0 space. I think it's very important to get those key partners, Who are developing those dApps. See the power of single sign-on, having a human-readable, digital identity, being able to seamlessly transfer all your assets, digital assets, across multiple cryptos, across multiple NFT marketplaces, and so on and so forth. >> Yeah, and I think the whole community thing, too, is also you seeing the communities being part of, certainly in the entertainment area, and the artistry, creator world, the users are art of the community, they own it, too. So it goes both ways, but this brings up the marketplace, too, as well, because you guys have the opportunity to have trust built into the software layer, right? So now you can keep the reputation data. You can be anonymous, but it's trustworthy, versus bots, which we all know bots can be killed and then started again with... And no one knows what the tagalong has been around. So the whole inadequacy of Web2, which is just growing pains, right? This is what it evolution looks like, next abstraction layer. So I love that vibe. How advanced do you think that thinking is, where people are saying, Hey, we need this abstraction layer. We need this digital identity. We need to start expanding our applications so that the users can move across these and break down those silos where the data is, 'cause that's... This is like the nerd problem, right? It's the data silos that are holding it back. What's your guys' reaction to that? The killing the silos and making it horizontally scalable? >> Yeah, I think it's a nerd problem. It is a problem of people who understand technology. It's a problem of a lot of the people in the business who want to compete effectively against those giants, which are holding all the data. So I think those are the people who will innovate and move. Again, coming back to financial inclusion, coming back to the unbanked, those guys just want to do their business. They want to live their daily life. I think that's not where you'll see... You will see innovation in a different form, but they're not going to disrupt the disrupters. I think that would be the people, Fintechs, I think they would be the first to move on to something like that. I mean, that's my humble opinion. >> Sajjad, you heard. >> Yeah, I think- >> Go ahead. >> I mean, absolutely. I think, I mean, I touched on creators, right? So, like I said earlier, right, we are heading to a future where more people will be creators on the internet. Whether you're publishing, writing something, you're creating video content, and that means that they have data they own, but that's their data, they bring it to the internet. That's more powerful, more useful, and they should be able to transact on that basis. So I think people are recognizing that, and they will increasingly look to do so. And as they do that, they would want these systems that enable them to hold permission to their data. They will want to be able to control what their permission and what they want to provide, dApp. And at the end of the day, these applications have to work backwards from customers, and the customer's looking for that. That's where... That's what they will build. >> The users want freedom. They want to be able to be connected, and not be restricted. They want to freely move around the global internet and do whatever they want with the friends and apps that they want to consume, and not feel arbitraged. They don't want to feel like they're kind of nailed into a walled garden and stuck there and having to come back. It's the new normal. >> They don't want to be the product, right, so. >> They don't want to be the product. Gentlemen, great to have you on, great conversation. We're going to continue this later. Certainly want to keep the updates coming. You guys are in a very hot area in Europe and Asia Pacific. That's where a lot of the action is happening. We see the entrepreneurial activity, the business transformation, certainly with the new paradigm shift, and this big wave that's coming. It's here, it's mainstream. Thanks for coming on and sharing your insights. Appreciate it. >> Thanks, John. >> Thanks, John, Thanks for the opportunity, have a good day. >> Okay, okay, great conversation. All the action's moving and happening real fast. This is theCUBE Unstoppable Domains Partner Showcase. I'm John Furrier, your host. Thanks for watching. (contemplative music)

>>Everyone welcome back to the cubes, unstoppable domains partner showcase. I'm John furrier, host of the cube. This segment, this session is about expansion into Asia, Pacific and Europe for unstoppable domains. It's a hot start-up in the web three area, really creating a new innovation around NFTs crypto, single sign-on and digital identity giving users the power like they should. We've got two great guests, the Jod ramen head of Europe and Neil Katz on is Neil I, our head of Asia. So John Neil, welcome to this cube and let's talk about the expansion. It's not really expansion. The global economy is global, but showcase here about unstoppable was going to Europe. Thanks for coming on. >>Thanks John. >>So we're living in a global world, obviously crypto blockchain, decentralized applications. You're starting to see mainstream adoption, which means the shift is happening. There are more apps coming and it means more infrastructure and things got to get easier, right? So, you know, reduce the steps it takes to do stuff makes the Wallace better. Give people more secure. Access can control the day. This is what unstoppable is all about. You guys are in the middle of it. You're on this wave. What is the potential of web three with unstoppable and in general in Asia and in Europe, >>I can go first. So now let's look at the Asia market. I mean, typically we see the us market, the Europe markets for typical web two.zero software and infrastructure is definitely the larger markets with us, typically accounting for about 60% and you know, Europe about 20 to 30% and Asia has always been small, but we see in this whole world of blockchain, crypto web three.zero Asia already has about 116 million users. They have more than 35 local exchanges. And if you really look at the number of countries in terms of the rate of adoption of many of the Asian countries, which probably would have never even heard of like Vietnam actually topping the list, right? One of the reasons that this is happening again, if you go through the Asian development banks, latest report, you have these gen Z's and millennials of that's 50% of the Asian population. >>And if you really look at 50% of the Asian population, that's 1.1 billion people out of the total, 1.8 billion gen Z and millennials that you have in the world. And these folks are digital native they're people. In fact, our mobile first and millennials. Many of us like myself at least are people who are digital. And 20% of the world's economy is currently digital and the rest 40 to 50%, which is going to happen. It's going to happen in the web three dot four world. And that's going to be driven by millennials and gen Zs. I think that's why this whole space is so exciting because it's being driven by the users by the new generation. I mean, that's my broad thought on this little thing. >>I want to just comment on Asia also in the other areas where mobile first came, you had the end, the younger demographics, absolutely driving the change because they're like, well, I don't want the old way. They've got, they can write, write from scratch at the beginning, they're using the technologies that has propelled the crypto world. I mean, that is absolutely true. Everyone's kind of seeing that. And that's now influencing some of these developer nations, like say in Europe, for instance, and even north America, I think years more advanced than north America in my opinion, but we'll get to that. Oh, so potential in Europe. So John could take us through your thoughts on as head of Europe for >>Absolutely so news, right? I think the issue is way ahead in terms of gen Z user golfing, critical Jordan was actually a distant second, but it's a rising tool that actually has the highest transaction. Like they will be retro or last year and a half. And you know, if you dig a bit deeper, I'd say, arguably, I think the opportunity in web three is perhaps the largest and perhaps it can mean the most withdrawal Jora for the last decade has been trailing behind Asia and north America when it comes to. But I think unicorns and I think that we can provide a step change opportunity. This belief for me, stems from the fact that Jordan on a seat, right? Like for example, GDPR is focused on enabling real data ownership. And I think I recently read a paper out of Stanford by Patrick Henson speaks about being the best bot paper, enabling patient sovereign. >>So what that means is you just spend tool the data they've been to the internet and they harness the value from it. And on one hand while, you know, verb is enabling that regulation that could bring that forward when she actually brings it into action. So I think with what enablement better regulation, and we'll see more hubs like the crypto valley in Switzerland popup that we're bring, I think normal regulation, the right regulation. We can expect what info capital for builder talent that then drives more adoption. So I think the prospects for Europe in terms of usage, as well as builders are quite right. >>Yeah. And I think also you guys are in areas where the cultural shift is so dramatic. You mentioned Asia that they have demographics. Even the entrepreneurial culture in Europe right now is booming. You look at all the venture back startups and the young generation building companies. And again, cloud computing is a big part of that as obviously. But look at compared to the United States, you go back 15 years ago, Europe was way behind on, on the startup scene. Now it's booming and pumping on all cylinders and kind of points at this cultural shift. It's almost like a generational, you know, it's like the digital hippies changing the world. You know, they're web three. It's kinda, I don't want to be web to web two is so old. You know, I don't want to do that. And it's all because it's changing, right? And there are things that inadequate with web two on the naming system, also the arbitrage around fake information, bots users being manipulated, and also, you know, merchandise and monetize through these portals. And that's, that's kind of ending. So talk about the dynamic of web two, three at those areas. You've got users and you've got companies who build applications, they're going to shift and be forced in our opinion, and want to get a reaction to that. Do you think applications are going to have to be web three or users will reject them? >>Yeah, I think I jumped in and I'm not Neil's sport. I think the, the back is built on Q principles, right? Decentralization or ship and compostability. And I think these are binary. So, you know, if, if I look far down the future, I don't see a future where you have just whipped V I think there's gonna be a coexistence or cooperation between bamboo companies. I think there's going to be a sliding scale to decentralization versus PlayStation similarity, you know, ownership. And I think users will find what works best for them in different contexts. I think what installed this link is potentially providing the identity system correctly and that's, we were powerful that account being better on blockchains, then the naming system we had for web, right? The, the identity system serve focus, Paul, taking that you as a personal identifier that, so blockchain to me mean they're attaching all kinds of attributes that define who you are, the physical and digital world, and then filling out information that you can transact on the basis of. And I think that users would as the or future, right with, you know, InBev to more of the users were essentially consumers or readers of the internet and in bed with more technology platforms taking shape and getting proliferation that you would see more than just being actually writers, publishers, and developers on the internet. And they were value owning the data and to harness the most model valuable. So I think a basketball with bonds, and I think that's the future. I see that >>Well, I think you put it very, very nicely. So the other thing you've covered most of the points, I think, but I'm seeing a lot of different things that are happening in the ground. I think a lot of the garments, a lot of the web two.zero players, the traditional banks, these guys are not sitting quiet on the blockchain space. There's a lot of pilots happening in the blockchain space, right? I'm mean I can give you real life examples. I mean, one of the biggest example is in my home state of Maharashtra and Mumbai is they actually partnered with the polygon MarTech, right? Actually built a private blockchain based capability to, you know, kind of deliver your COVID vaccination certificates with the QR code it. And that's the only way they could deliver that kind of volumes in that shorter time. But the kind of user control the user control the user has on the data that could only be possible because of blockchain. >>Of course, it's still private because it's healthcare data. Now, they still want to keep it, or, you know, something that's not fully on a blockchain, but that is something, a similarly view. There is a consortium of about nine banks who have actually been trying to work on making things like remittances or trade finance, much, much easier. I mean, remittances through a traditional web two.zero world is very, very costly. And especially in the Asian countries, but a lot of people from Southeast Asia work across the world and send back money home. It's a very costly and a time taking affair. So they have actually partnered and built a blockchain based capability. Again, in a pilot stage, we kind of reduce the transaction costs. Like for example, if we just look at the trade finance space where there are 14 million traders who do 2.4, $5 trillion of transaction, now they were able to actually reduce the time that it takes from eight to nine days to about two to three days. So to add onto what you're saying, I think these two worlds are going to meet and meet very soon. And when they meet what they need is a single digital identity, a human readable way of being able to send and receive and do commerce. I think that's where I see unstoppable domains, very nicely positioned to be able to integrate these two worlds. So that's, that's my thought on >>Great point. I was going to get into which industries and kind of what areas you see in your air and geographies, but it's a good point about saving time. I liked how you brought that up because in these new waves, you either got to reduce the steps. It takes to do something or save time, make it easy. And these are the, this is the successful formula in anything, whether it's an app or UI or whatever, but what specifically are they doing in your areas? And, and what about unstoppable? Are they attracted to, is it because of the identity? Is it because of the, the apps is because of the single sign on what is that? What is the reason that they're leaning in and unpacking this further into their pilots? >>Do you want to take that because >>I am having these dumping it'd be warranted. So I think, and let me clarify the question, John you're, you're talking about companies looking at departments of our production partner. >>Yeah. What are they seeing and what are they seeing as the value that these pilots we heard from Neil Canada around the, the, the financial industry and obviously gaming gaming's one it's obvious, huge financial healthcare. I mean, these are obviously verticals that are going to be heavily impacted in a positive way. Where, what are they seeing as the value what's getting them motivated to do these pilots? Why they, why they jumping in with, with both feet, if you will, on these projects, is it because it's saving money? Is it time? What, or, or both, is it ease of use? Is it the, is it the user's expectations trying to tease out how you guys see that evolving? >>Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think the, the, this is still spaces. The movement is going very fast, but I think the space has been young. And right now a lot of these companies are seeing the potential that, that few offers. And I think the key dimensions, like the possibility isn't leadership ownership. So I think the key thing I'm seeing in you is these web companies seeing the momentum and looking to harness that book by enabling bridges web. One of the key trends in water has been FinTech. I think over the last five to six years, we'll have the Revolut and 26 platforms, new banks and super finance. So perhaps rising to the forefront and they are all enabling or connecting a page with them in some shape and form either any of them creating a crypto, some are launching their own native wallets. And these are essentially ways that they can one crack users. >>So the gen Z who are looking for war with finance to get them on board, but also to look to, you know, enable more adoption by data on users, one, not using these services that potentially create new revenue streams and, and create allocation of capital that they could not access to have access to otherwise. So I think that's one brand I'm seeing over here. I think the other key trend is in your use has been games. And again, that links are damaged. We have to, that is called the MetAware. So a lot of game companies are looking to step into game five, which is again, completely different. This is more work traditional game companies use use similarly metal versus we, again, worship creates a different business model and they see that users and gamers of the future were born to engage with that versus just being more eyes on the business of question or our ads. And I think that's something that they're, you know, becoming a bit off and quickly the space launching the one better versus, or are gained by applications or creating a comfortability with these, these, these, >>You know, I wanted to get it to this point, but I was going to ask about the community empowerment piece of this equation because she's identity is about the user's identity, which implies they're part of a community. Web three is very convenient community centric, but you mentioned gaming. I mean, people who have been watching the gaming world like ourselves, know that communities and marketplaces have been very active for years, many years, you know, over 15 years community, you know, games, currency in game activity has been out there. Right. But siloed within the games themselves. So now it seems that that paradigm is coming in and empowering all communities. Is this something that you guys see and agree with? And if so, what's different about that? What, how are our, how our communities being empowered? I guess that's the question. >>Yeah. I can maybe take that too. So, I mean, I've also heard of vaccine I'm in a 40% of their user base in Vietnam. And the average earning that a person makes in a month out of playing this game is more than the, you know, national daily or, you know, minimum wage that is there. Right. So that's the kind of potential actually going back as a combination of actually answering your earlier question, I think, or, and about what Sadat said, what's really unique in Asia is we still have a lot of unbanked people, right? So if you really look at the total unbanked population of the world, it's 1.6 billion and 24% of that as a nation, almost 375 million people are an issue. So these are people who do not have access to finance or credit. So the whole idea is how do we get these people on to a banking system on to peer peer, to peer lending out kind of peer to peer finance kind of capabilities? >>I think, you know, again, unstoppable domains kind of helps in that, right? If you just look@thepurethatthree.zero world and the complex, you know, technical way in which, you know, money or other crypto is transferred from one wallet to the other, it's very difficult for an un-banked person who probably cannot even do basic communication, cannot read and write, but actually be able to do it, but something that's very human readable, something that's very easy for him to understand something that's visual, something that he can see on his mobile with, you know, two G network. We are not talking of the world is talking about 5g, but there are parts of Asia which are still using two G and you know, two point 5g kind of network. Right? So I think that's one key use case. I think the banks are trying to solve because for them, this is a whole new customer segment. >>And sorry, I actually went back a little bit to your earlier question, but you know, coming back to this whole community building, right? So on March 8th, we're launching something called us women of web 3.0, that is three. This is basically to again, empower. So if you, again, look at Asia, you know, women, you know, need a lot of training. They need a lot of enablement for them to be able to leverage the power of that three.zero. I can talk about India because being from India, a lot of the women do not, you know, they, they do all the, you know, small businesses, but the money is not taken by middlemen or taken by their husbands, but fundamentally the money comes to them because that's what they use to educate their children. And it's the same thing in a lot of other, Southeast Asian countries as well. I think it's very important to build those communities or communities of women entrepreneurs. I think this is a big opportunity to really get the section of society, which probably, you know, will take 10 more years. If we go for the normal one to web two.zero progression where the power is with corporations and not with the individual. >>And that's a great announcement, by the way, you mentioned the $10 million worth of domains being issued out for this is democratization is what it's all about. Again, this is, you know, a new revolution. I mean, this is a new thing, so great stuff, more education, more learning, and can get the banks up and running, get those people banking because once they're banking, they get wallets, right? So they need the wallet. So let's get to the real meat here. You guys are in the territory, Europe and Asia, where there's a lot of wallets. There's a lot of exchanges because that's, they're not in the United States is few of them there, but most of them outside the United States and you got a lot of di apps developing, you know, decentralized applications. Okay. So you've got all this coming together and your territory, what's the strategy is that what's the strategy. How are you gonna attack that? You've got the wallets, you've got the exchanges and you've got D applications. You, >>Yeah. so I think just quickly there, I think one point is the Neil very expressive, beautifully is the final conclusion that that is something that has been inspired me, how better we can make it more inclusive that inspired mine. Yeah. I think for us, I think when a bit at the base star, when it comes to your right and the, the key focus in, in, in terms of our approach would be that the more do two dates, one, we want increase the utility of these domains. And the second thing is we weren't via proliferation with, with, with our partners. So when I speak on utility, I think utility is when you have a universe like depart, which is a domain name, and then you have these attributes around it, right? What, what that defines your identity. So in, in the context in Europe, we would look to find partners to help us enrich that identity around the domain name. >>And that adds value for users in terms of acquiring new leads and new blinds. And all the other element comes proliferation. I think it's about working with all those crypto and participants, as well as the adjacent companies, parents services who can help us educate current and future upcoming three users about the utility of domain names and help us onboard them to the, the. So I think that's going to be the general focus. I think the key is that as well, and hopefully it will be having watch regulation, you that allow us to do this at a visual level, but at the outset, I think it's going to be tackling it. Can't be by, can't be identified on this where there's deeper, better patient for and then making sure that we are partnering with local project partners that are demanding for local communities there. So, yeah, that's my view in, >>Oh, I think, yeah. So again, in Asia, once you have a significant part of Manatee living in Asia, right? So obviously I know obviously all the other challenges and the opportunities that we talk about, I think the first area of focus would be educating the people on the massive opportunity that they can not, they have, and if you're able to get them in early, I think it's great for them as well, right? Because by the time, you know, governments regulations and a large banking financial companies move, but if we can get the larger population or, you know, into this whole space, it's, it's good for them. So they are first movers in that space. I think we're doing a lot of things on this worldwide. I think we have done more than a hundred Pasco podcast, just educating people on water's web feed or, or, you know, waters, what are NFP domains, what is defy and, you know, so on and so forth. >>I think it would need some bit of localization customization in Asia, given that, you know, India itself has about 22 languages. And then there are the other countries which each of them have their own local languages and, you know, syntax, semantics and all those things. So I think that that is very important to be able to disseminate the knowledge or though it's it's global. But I think to get the grassroot people to understand the opportunity, I think it would need some amount of work that I think also building communities. I think John, you talked about communities so that such I'd talk about communities. I think it's very important to build communities because communities create ideation. It talks about people share their challenges so that people don't repeat the same mistakes. Also. I think it's very important to build communities based on impressed. I think we all know in the technology world, you can build communities and on telegram, telegram, discard, Twitter spaces and all those things. >>But, you know, again, when we're talking about financial inclusion, we're talking of a different kind of community building. I think that that would be important. And then of course I will, you know, kind of primarily from a company perspective, I think getting the 35 odd exchanges in Asia, the wallets to partner with us, just as an example, you know, they hired till September of last year, about 3,500 apps in just one quarter at double two, 7,000 tabs on their platform. But that is the pace or the speed of innovation that we are seeing on this whole, you know, three dot old space. I think it's very important to get those key partners. We're developing those dots or see the power of single sign on having a human readable, digital identity, being able to seamlessly transfer your assets, digital assets across multiple crypto's across multiple NFT when the market places and so on. So >>Yeah, and I think the whole community thing too is also you seeing the communities being part of certainly in the entertainment area and the artistry creator world, the users are part of the community own it too. So it goes both ways, but this brings up the marketplace too, as well, because you ha you guys have the opportunity to have trust built into the software layer, right? So now you can keep the reputation data. You don't, you can be anonymous, but it's trustworthy versus bots, which we all know bots can be killed and then started again with, and no one knows what the timeline has been around. So, you know, the whole inadequacy of web too, which is just growing pains, right? This is what it'll evolution looks like, you know, next to them, traction layer. So I love that vibe. How advanced do you think that thinking is where people are saying, Hey, we need this abstraction layer. We need this digital identity. We need to start expanding our applications so that the users can move across these and break down those silos where the data is cause that's, this is like the problem, right? It's the data silos that are holding it back. What'd you guys' reaction to that? The, the killing the silos and making it horizontally scalable. >>Yeah, I think it's, it's not problem. It is a problem of people who understand technology. It's a problem of a lot of the people in the business who want to compete effectively against those giants, which are holding all the data. So I think those are the people who will innovate and move again, coming back to financial inclusion, coming back to the unbanked and those guys just want to do their business. They want to live their daily life. I think that's not where you'll see, you will see innovation in a different form, but they're not going to disrupt the disruptors. I think that would be the people that are fintechs. I think they would be the first to move on to something like that. I mean, that's my humble opinion. >>Absolutely. I, I got you on creators, right? So like I said earlier, right, we are heading for a future where more creators on the internet, whether you're publishing, writing something, you're creating video content. And that means that the data they own, because that's their data, they're bringing it to the internet. That's more powerful, more useful, and they should be reprocessed on that basis. So I think people are recognizing that and they've been using the proposal and as they do that, they were warranties systems that enabled them to work permissions with data. They will want to be able to control what the permission and what they want to provide, adapt. And at the end of the day, you know, these applications have to work backwards from customers and keep the customers looking for, but that then, and ask where passport for >>The users want freedom. They want to be able to be connected and not be restricted. They want to freely move around the global internet and do whatever they want with the friends and apps that they want to consume and not feel arbitrage. They don't want to feel like they're kind of nailed into a walled garden and, you know, stuck there and having to come back. It's the new normal. If >>They don't want to be the, they don't want to be the product. They >>Don't want to be the perfect gentlemen. Great to have you on great conversation. We're going to continue this later. Certainly want to keep the updates coming. You guys are in a very hot area in Europe and Asia Pacific. That's where a lot of the action is happening. We see the entrepreneurial activity, the business transformation, certainly with the new paradigm shift and this big wave that's coming. It's here. It's mainstream. Thanks for coming on, sharing your insights. Appreciate it. >>Thanks for the opportunity. >>Great conversation. All the actions moving and happening real fast. This is the cube unstoppable debates partner showcase with I'm John for your host. Thanks for watching.

>>Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Couchbase connect online, where the theme of the event is, or is modernized now. Yes, let's talk about that. And with me is Ravi, who's the senior vice president of engineering and the CTO at Couchbase Ravi. Welcome. Great to see you. >>Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you. >>I asked you what the new requirements are around modern applications. I've seen some, you know, some of your comments, you gotta be flexible, distributed, multimodal, mobile edge. It, that those are all the very cool sort of buzz words, smart applications. What does that all mean? And how do you put that into a product and make it real? >>Yeah, I think what has basically happened is that, uh, so far, uh, it's been a transition of sorts. And now we are come to a point where, uh, the tipping point and the tipping point has been, uh, uh, more because of COVID and there COVID has pushed us to a world where we are living, uh, in a sort of, uh, occasionally connected manner where our digital, uh, interactions, precede our physical interactions in one sense. So it's a world where we do a lot more stuff that's less than, uh, in a digital manner, as opposed to sort of making a more specific human contact that has really been the, uh, sort of accelerant to this modernized. Now, as a team in this process, what has happened is that so far all the databases and all the data infrastructure that we have built historically, are all very centralized. >>They're all sitting behind. Uh, they used to be in mainframes from where they came to like your own data centers, where we used to run hundreds of servers to where they're going now, which is the computing marvelous change to consumption-based computing, which is all cloud oriented now. And so, uh, but they are all centralized still. Uh, but where our engagement happens with the data is, uh, at the edge, uh, at your point of convenience at your point of consumption, not where the data is actually sitting. So this has led to, uh, you know, all those buzzwords, as you said, which is like, oh, well we need a distributed data infrastructure, where is the edge? Uh, but it just basically comes down to the fact that the data needs to be where you are engaging with it. And that means if you are doing it on your mobile phone, or if you are sitting, uh, doing something in your body or traveling, or whether you are in a subway, whether you're in a plane or a ship, wherever the data needs to come to you, uh, and be available as opposed to every time you going to the data, which is centrally sitting in some place. >>And that is the fundamental shift in terms of how the modern architecture needs to think, uh, when they, when it comes to digital transformation and, uh, transitioning their old applications to, uh, the, the modern infrastructure, because that's, what's going to define your customer experiences and your personalized experiences. Uh, otherwise people are basically waiting for that circle of death that we all know, uh, and blaming the networks and other pieces. The problem is actually, the data is not where you are engaging with. It has got to be fetched, you know, seven seas away. Um, and that is the problem that we are basically solving in this modern modernization of that data, data infrastructure. >>I love this conversation and I love the fact that there's a technical person that can kind of educate us on, on this, because date data by its very nature is distributed. It's always been distributed, but w w but distributed database has always been incredibly challenging, whether it was a global SIS Plex or an eventual consistency of getting recovery for a distributed architecture has been extremely difficult. You know, I hate that this is a terrible term, lots of ways to skin a cat, but, but you've been the visionary behind this notion of optionality, how to solve technical problems in different ways. So how do you solve that, that problem of, of, of, uh, of, uh, of a super rock solid database that can handle, you know, distributed data? Yes. >>So there are two issues that you're a little too over there with Forrest is the optionality piece of it, which is that same data that you have that requires different types of processing on it. It's almost like fractional distillation. It is, uh, like your crude flowing through the system. You start all over from petrol and you can end up with Vaseline and rayon on the other end, but the raw material, that's our data in one sense. So far, we never treated the data that way. That's part of the problem. It has always been very purpose built and cast first problem. And so you just basically have to recast it every time we want to look at the data. The first thing that we have done is make data that fluid. So when you're actually, uh, when you have the data, you can first look at it to perform. >>Let's say a simple operation that we call as a key value store operation. Given my ID, give him a password kind of scenarios, which is like, you know, there are customers of ours who have billions of user IDs in their management. So things get slower. How do you make it fast and easily available? Log-in should not take more than five minutes. Again, this is a, there's a class of problem that we solve that same data. Now, eventually, without you ever having to, uh, sort of do a casting it to a different database, you can now do a solid, uh, acquire. These are classic sequel queries, which is our next magic. We are a no SQL database, but we have a full functional sequel. The sequel has been the language that has talked to data for 40 odd years successfully. Every other database has come and try to implement their own QL query language, but they've all failed only sequel as which stood the test of time of 40 odd years. >>Why? Because there's a solid mathematics behind it. It's called a relational calculus. And what that helps you is, is, uh, basically, uh, look at the data and any common tutorial, uh, any, uh, any which way you look at the data. All it will come, uh, the data in a format that you can consume. That's the guarantee sort of gives you in one sense. And because of that, you can now do some really complex in the database signs, what we call us, predicate logic on top of that. And that gives you the ability to do the classic relational type queries, select star from where Canada stuff, because it's at an English level, it becomes easy to, so the same data, you didn't have to go move it to another database, do your, uh, sort of transformation of the data and all this stuff. Same day that you do this. >>Now, that's where the optionality comes in. Now you can do another piece of logic on top of this, which we call search. This is built on this concept of inverted index and TF IDF, the classic Google in a very simple terms, but Google tokenized search, you can do that in the same data without you ever having to move the data to a different format. And then on top of it, they can do what is known as a eventing or your own custom logic, which we all which we do on a, on programming language called Java script. And finally analytics and analytics is the ability to query the operational data in a different way. I'll talk budding. What was my sales of this widget year over year on December 1st week, that's a very complex question to ask, and it takes a lot of different types of processing. >>So these are different types of that's optionality with different types of processing on the same data without you having to go to five different systems without you having to recast the data in five different ways and find different application logic. So you put them in one place. Now is your second question. Now this has got to be distributed and made available in multiple cloud in your data center, all the way to the edge, which is the operational side of the, uh, the database management system. And that's where the distributed, uh, platform that we have built enables us to get it to where you need the data to be, you know, in a classic way, we call it CDN in the data as in like content delivery networks. So far do static, uh, uh, sort of moving of static content to the edges. Now we can actually dynamically move the data. Now imagine the richness of applications you can develop. >>The first part of the, the answer to my question, are you saying you could do this without skiing with a no schema on, right? And then you can apply those techniques. >>Uh, fantastic question. Yes. That's the brilliance of this database is that so far classically databases have always demanded that you first define a schema before you can write a single byte of data. Couchbase is one of the rare databases. I, for one don't know any other one, but there could be, let's give the benefit of doubt. It's a database which writes data first and then late binds to schema as we call it. It's a schema on read things. So because there is no schema, it is just a on document that is sitting inside. And Jason is the lingua franca of the web, as you very well know by now. So it just Jason that we manage, you can do key lookups of the Jason. You can do full credit capability, like a classic relational database. We even have cost-based optimizers and the other sophisticated pieces of technology behind it. >>You can do searching on it, using the, um, the full textual analysis pipeline. You can do ad hoc wedding on the analytic side, and you can write your own custom logic on it using our eventing capabilities. So that's, that's what it allows because we keep the data in the native form of Jason. It's not a data structure or a data schema imposed by a database. It is how the data is produced. And on top of it, we bring different types of logic, five different types of it's like the philosophy is bringing logic to data as opposed to moving data to logic. This is what we have been doing, uh, in the last 40 years because we developed various, uh, database systems and data processing systems of various points. In time in our history, we had key value stores. We had relational systems, we had search systems, we had analytical systems. >>We had queuing systems, all the systems, if you want to use any one of them, our answer has always been, just move the data to that system. Versus we are saying that do not move the data as we get bigger and bigger and data just moving this data is going to be a humongous problem. If you're going to be moving petabytes of data for this is not one to fly instead, bring the logic to the data. So you can now apply different types of logic to the data. I think that's what, in one sense, the optionality piece of this, >>As you know, there's plenty of schema-less data stores. They're just, they're called data swamps. I mean, that's what they, that's what they became, right? I mean, so this is some, some interesting magic that you're applying here. >>Yes. I mean, the one problem with the data swamps as you call them is that that was a little too open-ended because the data format itself could change. And then you do your, then everything became like a game data casting because it required you to have it in seven schema in one sense at the end of the day, for certain types of processing. So in that where a lot of gaps it's probably flooded, but it not really, uh, how do you say, um, keep to the promise that it actually meant to be? So that's why it was a swamp I need, because it was fundamentally not managing the data. The data was sitting in some file system, and then you are doing something, this is a classic database where the data is managed and you create indexes to manage it, and you create different types of indexes to manage it. You distribute the index, you distribute the data you have, um, like we were discussing, you have acid semantics on top of, and when you, when you put all these things together, uh, it's, it's, it's a tough proposition, but they have solved some really tough problems, which are good computer science stuff, computer science problems that we have to solve to bring this, to bring this, to bear, to bring this to the market. >>So you predicted the trend around multimodal and converged, uh, databases. Um, you kind of led Couchbase through that. I want to, I always ask this question because it's clearly a trend in the industry and it, it definitely makes sense from a simplification standpoint. And, and, and so that I don't have to keep switching databases or the flip side of that though, Ravi. And I wonder if you could give me your opinion on this is kind of the right tool for the right job. So I often say isn't that the Swiss army knife approach, we have a little teeny scissors and a knife. That's not that sharp. How do you respond to that? Uh, >>A great one. Um, my answer is always, I use another analogy to tackle that, but is that, have you ever accused a smartphone of being a Swiss army knife? No. No. Nobody does that because it's actually 40 functions in one is what a smartphone becomes. You never call your iPhone or your Android phone, a Swiss army knife, because here's the reason is that you can use that same device in the full capacity. That's what optionality is. It's not, I'm not, it's not like your good old one where there's a keyboard hiding half the screen, and you can do everything only through the keyboard without touching and stuff like that. That's not the whole devices available to you to do one type of processing when you want it. When you're done with that, it can do another completely different types of processing. Like as in a moment, it could be a Tom, Tom telling you all the directions, the next one, it's your PDA. >>Third one, it's a fantastic phone. Uh, four, it's a beautiful camera, which can do your f-stop management and give you a nice SLR quality picture. Right? So next moment is a video camera. People are shooting movies with this thing in Hollywood, these days for God's sake. So it gives you the full power of what you want to do when you want it. And now, if you just taught that iPhone is a great device or any smartphone is a great device, because you can do five things in one or 50 things in one, and at a certain level, they missed the point because what that device really enabled is not just these five things in one place. It becomes easy to consume and easy to operate. It actually started the app is the economy. That's the brilliance of bringing so many things in one place, because in the morning, you know, I get the alert saying that today you got to leave home at eight 15 for your nine o'clock meeting. >>And the next day it might actually say 8 45 is good enough because it knows where the phone is sitting. The geo position of it. It knows from my calendar where the meeting is actually happening. It can do a traffic calculation because it's got my map and all of the routes. And then it's gone there's notification system, which eventually pops up on my phone to say, Hey, you got to leave at this time. Now five different systems have to come together and they can because the data is in one place without that, you couldn't even do this simple function, uh, in a, in a sort of predictable manner in a, in a, in a manner that's useful to you. So I believe a database which gives you this optionality of doing multiple data processing on the same set of data allows you will allow you to build a class of products, which you are so far been able to struggling to build, because half the time you're running sideline to sideline, just, you know, um, integrating data from one system to the other. >>So I love the analogy with the smartphone. I w I want to, I want to continue it and double click on it. So I use this camera. I used to, you know, my kid had a game. I would bring the, the, the big camera, the 35 millimeter. So I don't use that anymore no way, but my wife does, she still uses the DSLR. So is, is there a similar analogy here? That those, and by the way, the camera, the camera shop in my town went out of business, you know? And so, so, but, but is there, is that a fair, where, in other words, those specialized databases, they say there still is a place for them, but they're getting >>Absolutely, absolutely great analogy and a great extension to the question. That's, that's the contrarian side of it in one sense is that, Hey, if everything can just be done in one, do you have a need for the other things? I mean, you gave a camera example where it is sort of, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Let me give you another one, which is actually less straight to the point better. I've been just because my, I, I listened to half of the music on the iPhone. Doesn't stop me from having my full digital receiver. And, you know, my Harman Kardon speakers at home because they haven't, they produce a kind of sounded immersive experience. This teeny little speaker has never in its lifetime intended to produce, right? It's the convenience. Yes. It's the convenience of convergence that I can put my earphones on and listen to all the great music. >>Yes, it's 90% there or 80% there. It depends on your audio file mess of your, uh, I mean, you don't experience the super specialized ones do not go away. You know, there are, there are places where, uh, the specialized use cases will demand a separate system to exist, but even there that has got to be very closed. Um, how do you say close, binding or late binding? I should be able to stream that song from my phone to that receiver so I can get it from those speakers. You can say that, oh, there's a digital divide between these two things done, and I can only play CDs on that one. That's not how it's going to work going forward. It's going to be, this is the connected world, right? As in, if I'm listening to the song in my car and then step off the car and walk into my living room, that's same songs should continue and play in my living room speakers. Then it's a world because it knows my preference and what I'm doing that all happened only because of this data flowing between all these systems. >>I love, I love that example too. When I was a kid, we used to go to Twitter, et cetera. And we'd to play around with, we take off the big four foot speakers. Those stores are out of business too. Absolutely. Um, now we just plug into Sonos. So that is the debate between relational and non-relational databases over Ravi. >>I believe so. Uh, because I think, uh, what had happened was the relational systems. Uh, I've been where the norm, they rule the roost, if you will, for the last 40 odd years, and then gain this no sequel movement, which was almost as though a rebellion from the relational world, we all inhibited, uh, uh, because we, it was very restrictive. It, it had the schema definition and the schema evolution as we call it, all those things, they were like, they required a committee, they required your DBA and your data architect. And you have to call them just to add one column and stuff like that. And the world had moved on. This was the world of blogs and tweets and, uh, you know, um, mashups and, um, uh, uh, a different generation of digital behavior, digital, native people now, um, who are operating in these and the, the applications, the, the consumer facing applications. >>We are living in this world. And yet the enterprise ones were still living in the, um, in the other, the other side of the divide. So all came this solution to say that we don't need SQL. Actually, the problem was never sequel. No sequel was, you know, best approximation, good marketing name, but from a technologist perspective, the problem was never the query language, no SQL was not the problem, the schema limitations, and the inability for these, the system to scale, the relational systems were built like, uh, airplanes, which is that if, uh, San Francisco Boston, there is a flight route, it's so popular that if you want to add 50 more seats to it, the only way you can do that is to go back to Boeing and ask them to get you a set in from 7 3 7 2 7 7 7, or whatever it is. And they'll stick you with a billion dollar bill on the alarm to somehow pay that by, you know, either flying more people or raising the rates or whatever you have to do. >>These are called vertically scaling systems. So relational systems are vertically scaling. They are expensive. Versus what we have done in this modern world, uh, is make the system how it is only scaling, which is more like the same thing. If it's a train that is going from San Francisco to Boston, you need 50 more people be my guests. I'll add one more coach to it, one more car to it. And the better part of the way we have done this year is that, and we have super specialized on that. This route actually requires three, three dining cars and only 10 sort of sleeper cars or whatever. Then just pick those and attach the next route. You can choose to have ID only one dining car. That's good enough. So the way you scale the plane is also can be customized based on the route along the route, more, more dining capabilities, shorter route, not an abandoned capability. >>You can attach the kind of coaches we call this multi-dimensional scaling. Not only do we scale horizontally, we can scale to different types of workloads by adding different types of coaches to it quite. So that's the beauty of this architecture. Now, why is that important? Is that where we land eventually is the ability to do operational and analytical in the same place. This is another thing which doesn't happen in the past, because you would say that I cannot run this analytical Barre because then my operational workload will suffer. Then my friend, then we'll slow down millions of customers that impacted that problem. We will solve the same data in which you can do analytical buddy, an operational query because they're separated by these cars, right? As in like we, we fence the, the, the resources, so that one doesn't impede the other. So you can, at the same time, have a microsecond 10 million ops per second, happening of a key value or equity. >>And then yet you can run this analytical body, which will take a couple of minutes to run one, not impeding the other. So that's in one sense, sort of the, part of the, um, uh, problems that we have solved here is that relational versus, uh, uh, the no SQL portion of it. These are the kinds of problems we have to solve. We solve those. And then we yet put back the same quality language on top. Y it's like Tesla in one sense, right underneath the surface is where all the stuff that had to be changed had to change, which is like the gasoline, uh, the internal combustion engine, uh, I think gas, uh, you says, these are the issues we really wanted to solve. Um, so solve that, change the engine out, you don't need to change the steering wheel or the gas pedal or the, you know, the battle shifters or whatever else you need, or that are for your shifters. >>Those need to remain in the same place. Otherwise people won't buy it. Otherwise it does not even look like a car to people. So, uh, even when you feed people the most advanced technology, it's got to be accessible to them in the manner that people can consume. Only in software, we forget this first design principle, and we go and say that, well, I got a car here, you got the blue harder to go fast and lean back for, for it to, you know, uh, to apply a break that's, that's how we seem to define, uh, design software. Instead, we should be designing them in a manner that it is easiest for our audience, which is developers to consume. And they've been using SQL for 40 years or 30 years. And so we give them the steering wheel on the, uh, and the gas bottle and the, um, and the gear shifter is by putting cul back on underneath the surface, we have completely solved, uh, the relational, uh, uh, limitations of schema, as well as scalability. >>So in, in, in that way, and by bringing back the classic acid capabilities, which is what relational systems, uh, we accounted on and being able to do that with the sequel programming language, we call it like multi-state SQL transaction. So to say, which is what a classic way all the enterprise software was built by putting that back. Now, I can say that that debate between relational and non-relational is over because this has truly extended the database to solve the problems that the relational systems had to grow up the salt in the modern times, but rather than get, um, sort of pedantic about whether it's, we have no SQL or sequel or new sequel, or, uh, you know, any of that sort of, uh, jargon, oriented debate, uh, this, these are the debates of computer science that they are actually, uh, and they were the solve and they have solved them with, uh, the latest release of $7, which we released a few months ago. >>Right, right. Last July, Ravi, we got to leave it there. I, I love the examples and the analogies. I can't wait to be face to face with you. I want to hang with you at the cocktail party because I've learned so much and really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming to the cube. >>Fantastic. Thanks for the time. And the Aboriginal Dan was, I mean, very insightful questions really appreciate it. Thank you. >>Okay. This is Dave Volante. We're covering Couchbase connect online, keep it right there for more great content on the cube.

>> Welcome back to the cubes coverage of Couchbase connect online, where the theme of the event is, is modernize now. Yes, let's talk about that. And with me is Ravi mayor him, who's the senior vice president of engineering and the CTO at Couchbase Ravi. Welcome. Great to see you. >> Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here with you. >> I want to ask you what the new requirements are around modern applications. I've seen some of your comments, you got to be flexible, distributed, multimodal, mobile, edge. Those are all the very cool sort of buzz words, smart applications. What does that all mean? And how do you put that into a product and make it real? >> Yeah, I think what has basically happened is that so far it's been a transition of sorts. And now we are come to a point where that tipping point and that tipping point has been more because of COVID and there are COVID has pushed us to a world where we are living in a in a sort of occasionally connected manner where our digital interactions precede, our physical interactions in one sense. So it's a world where we do a lot more stuff that's less than in a digital manner, as opposed to sort of making a more specific human contact. That does really been the sort of accelerant to this modernize Now, as a team. In this process, what has happened is that so far all the databases and all the data infrastructure that we have built historically, are all very centralized. They're all sitting behind. They used to be in mainframes from where they came to like your own data centers, where we used to run hundreds of servers to where they're going now, which is the computing marvelous change to consumption-based computing, which is all cloud oriented now. And so, but they are all centralized still, but where our engagement happens with the data is at the edge at your point of convenience, at your point of consumption, not where the data is actually sitting. So this has led to, you know, all those buzzwords, as you said, which is like, oh, well we need a distributed data infrastructure, where is the edge? But it just basically comes down to the fact that the data needs to be there, if you are engaging with it. And that means if you are doing it on your mobile phone, or if you're sitting, but doing something in your while you're traveling, or whether you're in a subway, whether you're in a plane or a ship, wherever the data needs to come to you and be available, as opposed to every time you going to the data, which is centrally sitting in some place. And that is the fundamental shift in terms of how the modern architecture needs to think when they, when it comes to digital transformation and, transitioning their old applications to the, the modern infrastructure, because that's, what's going to define your customer experiences and your personalized experiences. Otherwise, people are basically waiting for that circle of death that we all know, and blaming the networks and other pieces. The problem was actually, the data is not where you are engaging with it. It's got to be fetched, you know, seven sea's away. And that is the problem that we are basically solving in this modern modernization of that data, data infrastructure. >> I love this conversation and I love the fact that there's a technical person that can kind of educate us on, on this because date data by its very nature is distributed. It's always been distributed, but with the distributed database has always been incredibly challenging, whether it was a global SIS Plex or an eventual consistency of getting recovery for a distributed architecture has been extremely difficult. You know, I hate that this is a terrible term, lots of ways to skin a cat, but, but you've been the visionary behind this notion of optionality, how to solve technical problems in different ways. So how do you solve that, that problem of, of, of, of, of a super rock solid database that can handle, you know, distributed data? >> Yes. So there are two issues that you alluded little too over there. The first is the optionality piece of it, which is that same data that you have that requires different types of processing on it. It's almost like fractional distillation. It is like your crude flowing through the system. You start all over from petrol and you can end up with Vaseline and rayon on the other end, but the raw material, that's our data. In one sense. So far, we never treated the data that way. That's part of the problem. It has always been very purpose built and cast first problem. And so you just basically have to recast it every time we want to look at the data. The first thing that we have done is make data that fluid. So when you're actually, when you have the data, you can first look at it to perform. Let's say a simple operation that we call as a key value store operation. Given my ID, give him a password kind of scenarios, which is like, you know, there are customers of ours who have billions of user IDs in their management. So things get slower. How do you make it fast and easily available? Log-in should not take more than five milliseconds, this is, this is a class of problem that we solve that same data. Now, eventually, without you ever having to sort of do a casting it to a different database, you can now do solid queries. Our classic SQL queries, which is our next magic. We are a no SQL database, but we have a full functional SQL. The SQL has been the language that has talked to data for 40 odd years successfully. Every other database has come and tried to implement their own QL query language, but they've all failed only SQL has stood the test of time of 40 odd years. Why? Because there's a solid mathematics behind it. It's called a relational calculus. And what that helps you is, is basically a look at the data and any common editorial, any, any which way you look at the data, all it will come, the data in a format that you can consume. That's the guarantee sort of gives you in one sense. And because of that, you can now do some really complex in the database signs, what we call us, predicate logic on top of that. And that gives you the ability to do the classic relational type queries select star from where, kind of stuff, because it's at an English level becomes easy to so the same day that you didn't have to go move it to another database, do your sort of transformation of the data and all the stuff, same day that you do this. Now that's where the optionality comes in. Now you can do another piece of logic on top of this, which we call search. This is built on this concept of inverted index and TF IDF, the classic Google in a very simple terms, what Google tokenized search, you can do that in the same data without you ever having to move the data to a different format. And then on top of it, they can do what is known as a eventing or your own custom logic, which we all which we do on a, on programming language called Java script. And finally analytics and analytics is the, your ability to query the operational data in a different way. And talk querying, what was my sales of this widget year over year on December 1st week, that's a very complex question to ask, and it takes a lot of different types of processing. So these are different types of that's optionality with different types of processing on the same data without you having to go to five different systems without you having to recast the data in five different ways and apply different application logic. So you put them in one place. Now is your second question. Now this has got to be distributed and made available in multiple cloud in your data center, all the way to the edge, which is the operational side of the, the database management system. And that's where the distributed platform that we have built enables us to get it to where you need the data to be, you know, in the classic way we call it CDN'ing the data as in like content delivery networks. So far do static, sort of moving of static content to the edges. Now we can actually dynamically move the data. Now imagine the richness of applications you can develop. >> And on the first part of, of the, the, the answer to my question, are you saying you could do this without scheme with a no schema on, right? And then you can apply those techniques. >> Fantastic question. Yes. That's the brilliance of this database is that so far classically databases have always demanded that you first define a schema before you can write a single byte of data. Couchbase is one of the rare databases. I, for one don't know any other one, but there could be, let's give the benefit of doubt. It's a database which writes data first and then late binds to schema as we call it. It's a schema on read thing. So, because there is no schema, it is just a Json document that is sitting inside. And Json is the lingua franca of the web, as you very well know by now. So it just Json that we manage, you can do key value look ups of the Json. You can do full credit capability, like a classic relational database. We even have cost-based optimizers and other sophisticated pieces of technology behind it. You can do searching on it, using the, the full textual analysis pipeline. You can do ad hoc webbing on the analytics side, and you can write your own custom logic on it using or inventing capabilities. So that's, that's what it allows because we keep the data in the native form of Json. It's not a data structure or a data schema imposed by a database. It is how the data is produced. And on top of it, bring, we bring different types of logic, five different types of it's like the philosophy is bringing logic to data as opposed to moving data to logic. This is what we have been doing in the last 40 years, because we developed various database systems and data processing systems at various points in time in our history, we had key value stores. We had relational systems, we had search systems, we had analytical systems. We had queuing systems, all these systems, if you want to use any one of them are answered. It always been, just move the data to that system. Versus we are saying that do not move the data as we get bigger and bigger and data just moving this data is going to be a humongous problem. If you're going to be moving petabytes of data for this, it's not going to fly instead, bring the logic to the data, right? So you can now apply different types of logic to the data. I think that's what, in one sense, the optionality piece of this. >> But as you know, there's plenty of schema-less data stores. They're just, they're called data swamps. I mean, that's what they, that's what they became, right? I mean, so this is some, some interesting magic that you're applying here. >> Yes. I mean, the one problem with the data swamps as you call them is that that was a little too open-ended because the data format itself could change. And then you do your, then everything became like a game data recasting because it required you to have it in seven schema in one sense at, at the end of the day, for certain types of processing. So in that where a lot of gaps it's probably related, but it not really, how do you say keep to the promise that it actually meant to be? So that's why it was a swamp I mean, because it was fundamentally not managing the data. The data was sitting in some file system, and then you are doing something, this is a classic database where the data is managed and you create indexes to manage it. And you create different types of indexes to manage it. You distribute the index, you distribute the data you have, like we were discussing, you have ACID semantics on top of, and when you, when you put all these things together, it's, it's, it's a tough proposition, but we have solved some really tough problems, which are good computer science stuff, computer science problems that we have to solve to bring this, to bring this, to bear, to bring this to the market. >> So you predicted the trend around multimodal and converged databases. You kind of led Couchbase through that. I, I want, I always ask this question because it's clearly a trend in the industry and it, and it definitely makes sense from a simplification standpoint. And, and, and so that I don't have to keep switching databases or the flip side of that though, Ravi. And I wonder if you could give me your opinion on this is kind of the right tool for the right job. So I often say isn't that the Swiss army knife approach, where you have have a little teeny scissors and a knife, that's not that sharp. How, how do you respond to that? >> A great one. My answer is always, I use another analogy to tackle that, and is that, have you ever accused a smartphone of being a Swiss army knife? - No. No. >> Nobody does. That because it actually 40 functions in one is what a smartphone becomes. You never call your iPhone or your Android phone, a Swiss army knife, because here's the reason is that you can use that same device in the full capacity. That's what optionality is. It's not, I'm not, it's not like your good old one where there's a keyboard hiding half the screen, and you can do everything only through the keyboard without touching and stuff like that. That's not the whole devices available to you to do one type of processing when you want it. When you're done with that, it can do another completely different types of processing. Right? As in a moment, it could be a TomTom, telling you all the directions, the next one, it's your PDA. Third one. It's a fantastic phone. Four. It's a beautiful camera which can do your f-stop management and give you a nice SLR quality picture. Right? So next moment, it's the video camera. People are shooting movies with this thing in Hollywood, these days for God's sake. So it gives you the full power of what you want to do when you want it. And now, if you just thought that iPhone is a great device or any smartphone is a great device, because you can do five things in one or 50 things in one, and at a certain level, he missed the point because what that device really enabled is not just these five things in one place. It becomes easy to consume and easy to operate. It actually started the app based economy. That's the brilliance of bringing so many things in one place, because in the morning, you know, I get an alert saying that today you got to leave home at >> 8: 15 for your nine o'clock meeting. And the next day it might actually say 8 45 is good enough because it knows where the phone is sitting. The geo position of it. It knows from my calendar where the meeting is actually happening. It can do a traffic calculation because it's got my map and all of the routes. And then it's got this notification system, which eventually pops up on my phone to say, Hey, you got to leave at this time. Now five different systems have to come together and they can because the data is in one place. Without that, you couldn't even do this simple function in a, in a sort of predictable manner in a, in a, in a manner that's useful to you. So I believe a database which gives you this optionality of doing multiple data processing on the same set of data allows you will allow you to build a class of products, which you are so far been able to struggling to build. Because half the time you're running sideline to sideline, just, you know, integrating data from one system to the other. >> So I love the analogy with the smartphone. I want to, I want to continue it and double click on it. So I use this camera. I used to, you know, my kid had a game. I would bring the, the, the big camera, the 35 millimeter. So I don't use that anymore no way, but my wife does, she still uses the DSLR. So is, is there a similar analogy here? That those, and by the way, the camera, the camera shop in my town went out of business, you know? So, so, but, but is there, is that a fair and where, in other words, those specialized databases, they say there still is a place for them, but they're getting. >> Absolutely, absolutely great analogy and a great extension to the question. That's like, that's the contrarian side of it in one sense is that, Hey, if everything can just be done in one, do you have a need for the other things? I mean, you gave a camera example where it is sort of, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Let me give you another one, which is actually less straight to the point better. I've been just because my, I, I listened to half of my music on the iPhone. Doesn't stop me from having my full digital receiver. And, you know, my Harman Kardon speakers at home because they, I mean, they produce a kind of sounded immersive experience. This teeny little speaker has never in its lifetime intended to produce, right? It's the convenience. Yes. It's the convenience of convergence that I can put my earphones on and listen to all the great music. Yes, it's 90% there or 80% there. It depends on your audio file-ness of your, I mean, your experience super specialized ones do not go away. You know, there are, there are places where the specialized use cases will demand a separate system to exist. But even there that has got to be very closed. How do you say close, binding or late binding? I should be able to stream that song from my phone to that receiver so I can get it from those speakers. You can say that all, there's a digital divide between these two things done, and I can only play CDs on that one. That's not how it's going to work going forward. It's going to be, this is the connected world, right? As in, if I'm listening to the song in my car and then step off the car, walk into my living room, that same songs should continue and play in my living room speakers. Then it's a connected world because it knows my preference and what I'm doing that all happened only because of this data flowing between all these systems. >> I love, I love that example too. When I was a kid, we used to go to Tweeter, et cetera. And we used to play around with three, take home, big four foot speakers. Those stores are out of business too. Absolutely. And now we just plug into Sonos. So that is the debate between relational and non-relational databases over Ravi? >> I believe so, because I think what had happened was relational systems. I've mean where the norm, they rule the roost, if you will, for the last 40 odd years and then gain this no SQL movement, which was almost as though a rebellion from the relational world, we all inhabited because we, it was very restrictive. It, it had the schema definition and the schema evolution as we call it, all those things, they were like, they required a committee. They required your DBA and your data architect. And you had to call them just to add one column and stuff like that. And the world had moved on. This was a world of blogs and tweets and, you know, mashups and a different generation of digital behavior, There are digital, native people now who are operating in these and the, the applications, the, the consumer facing applications. We are living in this world. And yet the enterprise ones were still living in the, in the other, the other side of the divide. So out came this solution to say that we don't need SQL. Actually the problem was never SQL. No SQL was, you know, best approximation, good marketing name, but from a technologist perspective, the problem was never the query language, no SQL was not the problem, the schema limitations and the inability for these, the system to scale, the relational systems were built like airplanes, which is that if a San Francisco, Boston, there is a flight route, it's so popular that if you want to add 50 more seats to it, the only way you can do that is to go back to Boeing and ask them to get you a set from 7 3 7 2 7 7 7, or whatever it is. And they'll stick you with a billion dollar bill on the allowance that you'll somehow pay that by, you know, either flying more people or raising the rates or whatever you have to do. These are all vertically scaling systems. So relational systems are vertically scaling. They are expensive. Versus what we have done in this modern world is make the system horizontally scaling, which is more like the same thing. If it's a train that is going from San Francisco to Boston, you need 50 more people be my guest. I'll add one more coach to it, one more car to it. And the better part of the way we have done this here is that, and we are super specialized on that. This route actually requires three, three dining cars and only 10 sort of sleeper cars or whatever. Then just pick those and attach the next route. You can choose to have, I need only one dining car. That's good enough. So the way you scale the plane is also can be customized based on the route along the route, more, more dining capabilities, shorter route, not an abandoned capability. You can attach the kind of coaches we call this multidimensional scaling. Not only do we scale horizontally, we can scale to different types of workloads by adding different types of coaches to it, right? So that's the beauty of this architecture. Now, why is that architecture important? Is that where we land eventually is the ability to do operational and analytical in the same place. This is another thing which doesn't happen in the past, because, you would say that I cannot run this analytical query because then my operational workload will suffer. Then my front end, then we'll slow down millions of customers that impacted that problem. They'll solve the same data once again, do analytical query, an operational query because they're separated by these cars, right? As in like we, we, we fence the, the, the resources so that one doesn't impede the other. So you can, at the same time, have a microsecond 10 million ops per second, happening of a key value or a query. And then yet you can run this analytical query, which will take a couple of minutes to them. One, not impeding the other. So that's in one sense, sort of the part of the problems that we have solved it here is that relational versus the no SQL portion of it. These are the kinds of problems we have to solve. We solve those. And then we yet put back the same query language on top. Why? It's like Tesla in one sense, right underneath the surface is where all the stuff that had to be changed had to change, which is like the gasoline, the internal combustion engine the gas, you says, these were the issues we really wanted to solve. So solve that, change the engine out, you don't need to change the steering wheel or the gas pedal or the, you know, the battle shifters or whatever else you need, over there your gear shifters. Those need to remain in the same place. Otherwise people won't buy it. Otherwise it does not even look like a car to people. So even when you feed people, the most advanced technology, it's got to be accessible to them in the manner that people can consume. Only in software, we forget this first design principle, and we go and say that, well, I got a car here, you got the blow harder to go fast. And they lean back for, for it to, you know, to apply a break that's, that's how we seem to define design software. Instead, we shouldn't be designing them in a manner that it is easiest for our audience, which is developers to consume. And they've been using SQL for 40 years or 30 years. And so we give them the steering wheel on the, and the gas pedal and the, and the gear shifters by putting SQL back on underneath the surface, we have completely solved the relational limitations of schema, as well as scalability. So in, in, in that way, and by bringing back the classic ACID capabilities, which is what relational systems we accounted on, and being able to do that with the SQL programming language, we call it like multi-statement SQL transaction. So to say, which is what a classic way all the enterprise software was built by putting that back. Now, I can say that that debate between relational and non-relational is over because this has truly extended the database to solve the problems that the relational systems had to grow up to solve in the modern times, rather than get sort of pedantic about whether it's we have no SQL or SQL or new SQL, or, you know, any of that sort of jargon oriented debate. This is, these are the debates of computer science that they are actually, and they were the solve, and they have solved them with the latest release of 7.0, which we released a few months ago. >> Right, right. Last July, Ravi, we got got to leave it there. I love the examples and the analogies. I can't wait to be face-to-face with you. I want to hang with you at the cocktail party because I've learned so much and really appreciate your time. Thanks for coming to the cube. >> Fantastic. Thanks for the time. And the opportunity I was, I mean, very insightful questions really appreciate it. - Thank you. >> Okay. This is Dave Volante. We're covering Couchbase connect online, keep it right there for more great content on the cube.

>>From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of IBM. Think 20, 21 brought to you by IBM, >>Everybody welcome back to IBM. Think 2021. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of this event. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise, but doing that virtually for the better part of a 14 months. Now we're going to get deeper into application modernization. Marie ASHRAE is here. She's the director of marketing at mainline information systems and David burrows. Burrows is an account executive at mainline folks. Welcome to the cube. Great to have you on today. >>Thank you. Nice to be here >>To start with with mainline. Uh, people might not be familiar with, with mainline, but you've transformed over the past five years. I wonder if you could describe that for our audience? >>Yes, we have. Indeed. We have, um, mainline, um, you know, it's a 30 plus year company and, um, and for 30 odd years we had really been focused a lot in hardware, right? Hardware reselling. That's what the market needed. That's what we did a lot of. But then in the past, I would say five to eight years, maybe even 10 years, we started on this transformation project, um, for the business where we started transforming ourselves into really systems integrators versus just hardware reseller. So now we can go to a client and we can say, Hey, now what are you struggling with? Right? What are your business challenges? And then from there, we can integrate a solution that might be hardware. It might be software, it might be some services, it could be managed services. It could be staffing services, um, could be a number of different things and put all that together and then deliver a complete solution that helps them with their, their business requirements. Okay, >>David, that, that must've been an interesting transition because what Marie just described is it used to be every opportunity was a nail and whatever box you were selling was the hammer. And, and that, that has changed dramatically. Of course. So you, you, I wonder what that discussion was like with, with, with clients. You must have heard that early on and said, Oh, this cloud thing is happening. The world is changing. We've got to change too. I wonder if you could chime in on that transformation. >>Yes. That's our, uh, as our clients have been changing, what we've been doing is, uh, you know, making sure that we fully understand what's available not only in the marketplace, but the competition and what, what each industry segment, for example, baking versus insurance versus a utility maybe facing, uh, during this this time. And so, you know, being able to transform as a, as an accounting dedicated, we've been able to, uh, indicate and so provide solutions as Marie indicated. Um, the large focus over the last five years has been networking and security as we move, uh, more compute to the edge, close to the edge. Security has been predominant. Uh, and so, you know, hardware is really almost commoditized through and through and with the exception of, you know, IBM, Z and, and power. Uh, and so, you know, we've had to really, uh, sellers, you know, focus on what customers are dealing with and how they transition. Uh, and as we, uh, you know, through COVID, it's actually been a bigger challenge, a bigger focus on security. And I think we'll talk about that a little bit later in more detail >>Let's, let's, let's do that now. So, so Marie, maybe at a high level, you could talk about those challenges that your clients are facing. And then we can sort of double click on how that was exacerbated by, by COVID. And I'm really interested in your perspectives on sort of the post isolation economy and how those challenges are going to shift, but, but maybe, maybe kick us off at the high level if you could. >>Sure. So, um, so, you know, people, companies were moving toward, um, uh, th the whole digital transformation, right? Probably for the past three to four years, we started seeing more and more that's constantly, everybody sees those buzz words all the time. Um, so clients were shifting in that direction and we were shifting to try to satisfy them with their needs with those solutions, but then came COVID and all of a sudden, right. What people were, were planning on doing for the next, let's say five years. I mean, most of the iOS were saying, yeah, we're going to get there in five years. Well, that had to happen. Right. It had to have brakes went on and it had to happen instantaneously. So that put a big change in focus, a big change in direction for not only our clients. Right. But for our own folks, folks like David, who are trying to service these clients with having to bring them these solutions that we're going to solve their digital business needs, um, today and not five years from now. >>Yeah. So David let's, let's talk about that. I mean, what Marie just described, I call it the forced March to digital, because as Maria, as you were saying, people were on a digital transformation, but there was a little bit of complacency and okay, we'll get there. We're really busy doing some other stuff. And then all of a sudden you've probably seen the meme of the COVID wrecking ball coming, coming into the building, the office building and saying, you know, well, we're doing fine. And all of a sudden, boom, the forest COVID comes in. So, so, so, so how did that affect your clients and how did you respond? I mean, they're asking for VDI and get me some laptops, I need end point security. And so how did that affect the, the application modernization efforts and David, maybe you could comment on that. >>So I, I think for, for me, the biggest challenge was all business, the competition within business to survive COVID, uh, you know, they had to put on first thing was how do we get our, our customer, uh, supported correctly and how do we get our workers supportive, working at home? So the very first thing we did over the initial six months was most companies had to transform immediately within the first 30 to 90 days to allow their workforce to work from home. Uh, that happened throughout my, my customer base, uh, both in Southern California, uh, was customers really focused on, uh, how do we business process, how do we compete in this marketplace and get return on investment speed, you know, time to value or what we invest in these, uh, COVID times so that we can compete with other, uh, businesses that are trying to stay alive, uh, through this transition. And, and now, you know, we're seeing on, uh, on the backend, uh, you know, that time, the value in terms of investment is even more important because some businesses have been significantly impacted from not only cashflow, uh, but you know, certainly in terms of profitability during this time >>Makes sense. And so I'm read, so we were talking earlier about the, sort of the initial path to digital transformation, and I wonder if that's gotta be course corrected. I would think we were forced in to compress, you know, the digital reality, uh, and, and I guess in a way that's good. Uh, but in a way it was, we probably made a lot of mistakes. It was a bit of a Petri dish. So now as we begin to knock on exit COVID, you would think those, those imperatives, uh, adjust and they start to become aligned. What's your take on that, especially as it relates to application and infrastructure modernization. >>Um, so I would agree with that. I think that there's definitely has to be a little bit of a, of a real alignment happening. And I know recently I read that, um, 20, 21 is expected to be a very, um, large year in it spend because all of those, um, initiatives that CEOs and others were going after pre COVID kind of got put on hold, right. So they could then go focus on all of those digital needs that were needed, like, you know, the CDI, you know, work at home, all the security stuff for that. So I think we're going to see, I'm thinking, we're going to see a shift again now, and maybe businesses are going to go back and try to pick up where they were, uh, prior to COVID and now start working on more of really of the application modernization, um, initiatives that were in mind. And I know we wanted to talk about that as well, because David's been working on quite a bit of application modernization with, um, a few of his clients, um, as we're seeing again, businesses change. Um, and, and I don't know that all of that changes because of COVID. I think all of that change was for their competitiveness, um, to get there anyway. So I think that's going to start, as you said before, Dave, I think it's going to start now having to >>Kind of rethink, >>It reminds me of traffic on the David, if you've ever been to driving in, in London when it's slingshots, right. It's that's what's COVID was like Murray you're absolutely right. Last year it spend was down four to 5% this year. I mean, our prediction is going to be in the six to 7% range, which, which kind of aligns with where Gartner and IDC are based on our surveys. But, you know, back in, in April, like I think the 16th of April, it was a headline in the wall street journal that the China grew 18% GDP in the quarter. So it's very hard to predict, but, but it's coming back, you know, we, we can see that David and so, so spending is really gonna accelerate. There's probably some pent-up demand for that application modernization. Maybe it's been a little bit, uh, neglected as we've done, as Maria was saying. And you were saying the work from home. So maybe you could talk a little bit more about the modernization aspects and maybe I'm really interested in the things that you guys deliver in your portfolio with IBM. >>Sure. Uh, so what I have customers in multiple phases within this, uh, current digital transformation, their customer, uh, moving everything to next gen, uh, development, which is, uh, only containerized code, uh, being able to, you know, swiftly go through their development tests, uh, and, uh, hybrid cloud environments where they're, um, they haven't made an investment yet, but they're sampling what it might be like to, uh, change into that world. And then there are customers are still in the, uh, typical environment, uh, the traditional environment, and are looking at what the solutions, as far as packages are available for them moving forward. So they can kind of skip over, uh, any kind of development and being able to, uh, leverage, uh, what I call them next, gen development or next gen systems, uh, immediately, as you know, you asked, you know, what are the, what are the systems that are available? IBM's cloud pack, uh, solution set. It provides a portfolio of capabilities, uh, both in the application, suite, database, suite security. Uh, I have customers today leveraging that. Uh, and, and so that is one of the first pieces, uh, that, that customers I see who are on the leading edge, or are also kind of trailing, are looking at, uh, these cloud packs to be able to, uh, uh, go time to market and time to value, uh, quickly. >>Yeah. So when I look at your portfolio, I just sort of scan the web. Uh, David just mentioned Marie cloud pack. I mean, we're talking software here. You guys do have a lot of expertise in ZZ Linux power, you mentioned is not a commodity. And it's one of the few pieces of hardware that, and Z they're not a commodity storage. I would think business resiliency fits in there beyond disaster recovery, your red hat, we're talking, you know, things like open OpenShift and Ansible for automation. So these are, these are not your grandfather's main line. These are toolkits are a piece of, you know, parts of the tool bag that you bring to bear to focus on on client outcomes and solutions is, am I getting that right? >>Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and again, right, that goes back to the original opening comment about how we've transformed as a business, right. To become, uh, an integrator, um, putting all of these different pieces together. I mean, I know that, um, something that, that David recently had worked on, Oh my goodness. If you would have looked at the list of pieces of elements to that solution, um, it was really quite incredible between, um, open source stuff, you know, and a bunch of IBM stuff. Um, yes, it was some storage and yeah, there was some power, um, yes, there was red hat. Right. But then there was other stuff there was VMware. Um, there was, um, some things that, um, I can't even remember now all the names to all the components, but it was, it was a laundry list. Right. And so that's where though mainline stepped in and put the pieces together, uh, for the customer so that the customer then can get done what they needed to get done, which was, which was really solve their business problem, which was trying to become more competitive in their market space. >>Okay, David, so when Maria was sustained was basically, my takeaways is as a system integrator, you've got all these piece parts with these technologies, you've got virtualization, you've got automation, you've got containers and so forth. Uh, and yes, there's there's hardware, but there's this integration that has to occur. And your job is to abstract that complexity, that underlying complexity away so that the customers can focus on the outcome. Maybe you could talk about that and how you do that. >>Sure. I'll give you a good example of a recent customer that we work with who was, uh, basically, I mean, we consider an enterprise data platform that, that, uh, was going to rework their entire data warehouse into something that had governance surrounding it, uh, where they could validate all the data that was coming into their warehouse. And so we underpinned that, uh, with an infrastructure of power, uh, we're running, uh, obviously IBM, uh, uh, pack for data, uh, with DB two warehouse. Uh, we use a combination of that with, uh, Cloudera data flow through IBM, uh, with the streaming and, uh, the governance, uh, IBM governance catalog piece, which is, uh, lots of knowledge catalog. So, uh, we've been able to take not only what their base requirements were, but all the microservices that are packaged in with cloud pack, uh, all running on OpenShift, uh, which was a great acquisition that IBM did last year. And, uh, then, uh, they also required other microservices outside, uh, to support that environment and paint a picture for >>Us as to what the future looks like. Uh, it's, it's much different than the past 30 years, uh, and bring us home please >>Or so, um, I think the future for us is to continue to, um, to find all of the solutions, um, that will, that will help our customers, um, you know, get to their next steps. Right. And, and there's a lot, as you know, there's lots of solutions out there. There's lots of new companies that are popping up all the time. Um, you know, inherently, you know, mainline is an IBM partner. We've been an IBM partner for 30 plus years since our inception. And that's the base of our business is, is IBM. But, but there are other requirements that are needed by, by businesses, by our customers. And that's where we, we reach out and partner up. We probably have gone my goodness, 200 plus partnerships with various companies, various technology companies that we can then, um, lean on and pull in those ancillary solutions, um, to, to, to complete that, that solution for the customer. >>So I think we're going to continue going down that path. We're going to continue making sure that we're partnered with the, um, the, the leading technology companies. So we can build that IBM solution for our customer and, and bolt on the other pieces that are needed. Uh, we're going to continue to grow and enhance our services business because we've got quite a large services business, whether it's implementation services, uh, we do managed services. We have staffing services. I think you're going to see if we're still going to continue to, to grow that business, because that is a piece where companies, you know, they don't want to worry about running all of that stuff, right. They want to know that their system's going to be running 24 seven. And if there is a bump or a burp or something happens, Hey, they could pick up the phone, they can call mainline. We can help them get things corrected. So I think we're going to still see a lot of that going on as well, um, within our, our, our offerings. >>Excellent. Well, congratulations for making it through that. Not a whole lot, not, not every, uh, hardware seller reseller made it through and you guys transformed. It's a, it's an inspiring story. Maria, David, thanks so much for coming on the cube. Thank you. Thank you very much. You're really welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante in our continuous coverage and the cube of IBM think 20, 21. Keep it right there.

>> From around the globe, it's the cube, with digital coverage of IBM think 2021 brought to you by IBM. >> Hi everybody, Welcome back to IBM Think 2021. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching the cubes continuous coverage of this event. We go out to the events, we extract the signal from the noise but doing that virtually for the better part of a 14 months now, we're going to get deeper into application modernization. Marie Ashway is here. She's the director of marketing at Mainline Information Systems and David burrows. Burrows is an account executive at Mainline folks. Welcome to the cube, great to have you on today. >> Thank you. Nice to be here. >> Marie, I want to start with, with Mainline. A lot of people might not be familiar with Mainline but you've transformed over the past five years. I wonder if you could describe that for our audience? >> Yes, we have, indeed we have, Mainline, you know is a 30 plus year company and, and for 30 odd years we had really been focused a lot in hardware, right? Hardware reselling. That's what the market needed. That's what we did a lot of. But then in the past I would say five to eight years, maybe even 10 years we started on this transformation project for the business where we started transforming ourselves into really systems integrators versus just hardware reseller. So now we can go to a client and we can say, Hey now what are you struggling with? Right? What are your business challenges? And then from there we can integrate a solution that might be hardware. It might be software, it might be some services it could be managed services. It could be staffing services could be a number of different things and put all that together and then deliver a complete solution that helps them with their, their business requirements. >> Well, David, that that must've been an interesting transition because what Marie just described as it used to be every opportunity was a nail and whatever box you were selling was the hammer. And that, that has changed dramatically. Of course. So you, you, I wonder what that discussion was like with, with, with clients. You must have heard that early on and said, Uh-Oh this cloud thing is happening. The world is changing. We've got to change too. I wonder if you could chime in on that transformation. >> Yes. That's our, as our clients have been changing what we've been doing is, you know, making sure that we fully understand what's available, not only in the marketplace, but the competition. What, what each industry segment, for example, banking versus insurance versus a utility maybe facing during this this time. And so, you know, being able to transform as a as an accounting dedicated, we've been able to indicate. And so provide solutions as Marie indicated, the large focus over the last five years has been networking and security. As we move more compute to the edge, close to the edge security has been predominant. And so, you know, hardware is really almost commoditized through and through and with the exception of, you know IBM, Z and, and power. And so, you know, we've had to really sellers, you know focus on what customers are dealing with and how they transition. And as we, you know, through COVID, it's actually been a bigger challenge, a bigger focus on security. And I think we'll talk about that a little bit later in more detail >> Let's, let's, let's do that now. So, so Marie, maybe at a high level, you could talk about those challenges that your clients are facing. And then we can sort of double click on how that was exacerbated by, by COVID. And I'm really interested in your perspectives on sort of the post isolation economy and how those challenges are going to shift, but, but maybe maybe kick us off at the high level if you could. >> Sure. So, so, you know, people, companies were moving toward the the whole digital transformation, right? Probably for the past three to four years we started seeing more and more that constantly everybody sees those buzzwords all the time. So clients were shifting in that direction and we were shifting to try to satisfy them with their needs with those solutions but then came COVID and all of a sudden, right. What people were, were planning on doing for the next, let's say five years. I mean, most of the CEO's were saying, yeah we're going to get there in five years. Well, that had to happen. Right. It had to have brakes went on and it had to happen instantaneously. So that put a big change in focus a big change in direction for not only our clients. Right. But for our own folks, folks like David who are trying to service these clients with having to bring them these solutions that we're going to solve their digital business needs today and not five years from now. >> Yeah. So David let's, let's talk about that. I mean, what Marie just described I call it the forced march to digital, because as Marie as you were saying, people were on a digital transformation but there was a little bit of complacency and okay, we'll get there. We're really busy doing some other stuff. And then all of a sudden you've probably seen the meme of the COVID wrecking ball coming, coming into the building the office building and saying, you know, you know, well we're doing fine and all of a sudden, boom the forced COVID comes in. So, so, so so how did that affect your clients and how did you respond? I mean, they're asking for VDI and get me some laptops, I need end point security. And so how did that affect the the application modernization efforts and David maybe you could comment on that. >> So I, I think for, for me, the biggest challenge was all business, the competition within business to survive COVID, you know, they had to put on first thing was how do we get our, our customer supported correctly? And how do we get our workers supported working at home? So the very first thing we did over the initial six months was most companies had to transform immediately within the first 30 to 90 days to allow their workforce to work from home. That happened throughout my, my customer base, both in Southern California, was customers really focused on how do we do business process? How do we compete in this marketplace and get return on investment speed, you know, time to value or what we invest in these COVID times so that we can compete with other businesses that are trying to stay alive through this transition. And, and now, you know, we're seeing on the, on the back end you know, that time, the value in terms of investment is even more important because some businesses have been significantly impacted from knowing cashflow, but you know, certainly in terms of profitability during this time. >> Makes sense. And so, Marie, so we were talking earlier about the sort of the initial path to digital transformation. And I wonder if that's got to be course corrected. I would think we were forced in to compress, you know the digital reality and, and I guess in a way that's good but in a way it was, we probably made a lot of mistakes. It was a bit of a Petri dish. So now as we begin to ,knock on, exit COVID you would think those those imperatives adjust and they start to become aligned. What's your take on that, especially as it relates to application and infrastructure modernization. >> So I would agree with that. I think that there's definitely has to be a little bit of a of a realignment happening. And I know recently I read that 2021 is expected to be a very large year in IT spend because all of those initiatives that CEOs and others were going after pre COVID kind of got put on hold, right. So they could then go focus on all of those digital means that were needed. Like, you know, the CDI, you know, work at home all the security stuff for that. So I think we're going to see, I'm thinking, we're going to see a shift again now, and maybe businesses are going to go back and try to pick up where they were prior to COVID and now start working on more of really of the application modernization initiatives that were in mind. And I know we wanted to talk about that as well because David's been working on quite a bit of application modernization with a few of his clients as we're seeing again, businesses change. And, and I don't know that all of that changes because of COVID. I think all of that change was for their competitiveness, to get there anyway. So I think that's going to start, as you said before, David I think it's going to start now having to kind of rethink up >> It reminds me of traffic on the M four David have you ever been to driving in in London when it's slingshots? Right? It's that's what's COVID was like Marie, you're absolutely right. Last year IT spend was down 4 to 5% this year. I mean, our prediction is it's going to be in the 6 to 7% range, which, which, which kind of aligns with where Gartner and IDC are based on our surveys. But, you know, back in, in April like I think the 16th of April it was a headline of wall street journal that the China grew 18% GDP in the quarter. So it's very hard to predict, but, but it's coming back you know, we can see that David and so so spending is really going to accelerate. There's probably some pent-up demand for that application modernization. Maybe it's been a little bit neglected as we've done as Maria was saying. And you were saying that work from home. So maybe you could talk a little bit more about the modernization aspects and maybe I'm really interested in the things that you guys deliver in your portfolio with IBM. >> Sure. So what I have customers in multiple phases within this current digital transformation there are customers moving everything to the next gen development which is a fully containerized code. Being able to, you know swiftly go through their development tests and hybrid cloud environments where they're they haven't made an investment yet but they're sampling what it might be like to change into that world. And then there are customers are still in the typical environment, the traditional environment and are looking at what the solutions as far as packages are available for them moving forward. So they can kind of skip over any kind of development and being able to leverage what I call next gen development or next gen systems immediately as you know, you ask, you know, what are the what are the systems that are available? IBM's cloud pack solution set. It provides a portfolio of capabilities both in the application suite, database suite, security. I have customers today leveraging that. And, and so that is one of the first pieces that that customers I see who are on the leading edge or are also kind of trailing, are looking at these cloud bags to be able to go time to market and time to value quickly. >> Yeah. So when I look at your portfolio I just sort of scan the web. David just mentioned Marie, cloud pack. I mean, we're talking software here. You guys do have a lot of expertise in Z, Z Linux, Power. You mentioned is not a commodity. And it's one of the few pieces of hardware that and Z they're not a commodity. Storage, I would think business resiliency fits in there beyond disaster recovery. You Red Hat, we're talking, you know, things like open open shift and Ansible for automation. So these are, these are not your grandfather's main line. These are toolkits are a piece of, you know, parts of the tool bag that you bring to bear to focus on on client outcomes and solutions is am I getting that right? >> Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And again, right, that goes back to the original opening comment about how we've transformed as a business, right. To become an integrator putting all of these different pieces together. I mean, I know that something that that David recently had worked on, Oh my goodness. If you would have looked at the list of pieces of elements to that solution, it was really quite incredible between open source stuff, you know and a bunch of IBM stuff. Yes. It was some storage and yeah, there was some power. Yes. There was Red Hat. Right. But then there was other stuff, there was VMware there was some things that I can't even remember now all the names to all the components, but it was it was a laundry list. Right. And so that's where though Mainline stepped in and put the pieces together for the customer so that the customer then can get done what they needed to get done, which was which was really solve their business problem which was trying to become more competitive in their market space. >> Okay, David, so when Marie was just staying was basically my takeaway is, is this a system integrator? You've got all these piece parts with these technologies you've got virtualization, you've got automation you've got containers and so forth. And yes, there's there's hardware but there's this integration that has to occur. And your job is to abstract that complexity that underlying complexity away so that the customers can focus on the outcome. Maybe you could talk about that and how you do that. >> Sure. I'll, I'll give you a good example of a recent customer that we work with, who was basically implying, we consider an enterprise data platform that, that was going to rework their entire data warehouse into something that had governance surrounding it where they could validate all the data that was coming into their warehouse. And so we underpinned that with an infrastructure of power. We're running, obviously IBM pack for data with DB two warehouse. We use a combination of that with five-year data flow through IBM with the streaming and the governance IBM governance catalog piece, which is lots of knowledge catalog. So we've been able to take not only what their base requirements were, but all the microservices that are packaged in with cloud pack, all running on open shift which was a great acquisition that IBM did last year. And then they also required other microservices outside to support that environment >> Paint a picture for us as to what the future looks like. It's, it's much different than the past 30 years and bring us home, please. >> Sure. So I think the future for us is to continue to to find all of the solutions that will that will help our customers, you know get to their next steps. Right. And, and there's a lot, as you know did this lots of solutions out there. There's lots of new companies that are popping up all the time. You know, inherently, you know, Mainline is an IBM partner. We've been an IBM partner for 30 plus years since our inception. And that's the base of our business is, is IBM. But, but there are other requirements that are needed by by businesses, by our customers. And that's where we, we reach out and partner up. We probably have gone my goodness 200 plus partnerships with various companies various technology companies that we can then lean on and pull in those ancillary solutions to, to to complete that, that solution for the customer. So I think we're going to continue going down that path. We're going to continue making sure that we're partnered with the, the, the leading technology companies. So we can build that IBM solution for our customer and and bolt on the other pieces that are needed. We're going to continue to grow and enhance our services business because we've got quite a large services business whether it's implementation services, we do manage services we have staffing services. I think you're going to see we're still going to continue to, to grow that business because that is a piece where companies, you know they don't want to worry about running all of that stuff, right. They want to know that their system's going to be running 24 seven. And if there is a bump or a burp or something happens, Hey they could pick up the phone, they can call Mainline. We can help them get things corrected. So I think we're going to still see a lot of that going on as well within our, our, our offerings. >> Excellent. Well, congratulations for making it through that. Not a whole lot, not not every hardware seller reseller made it through and you guys transformed. It's a, it's an inspiring story. Marie, David, thanks so much for coming on the cube. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> You're really welcome. And thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Volante in our continuous coverage and the cube of IBM think 2021. Keep it right there.

>>Yeah. Hey, welcome back. Friday, Jeffrey here with the Cube, come to you from our Palo Alto studios today, talking about event that we're gonna have in November. It's pretty exciting. And to talk about it and give us a little bit of a preview, we're joined in the segment by Jeffrey Hammond. He's the vice president and principal analyst at Forrester. Jeffrey, great to see you. >>It's good to be here, Jeff. Thanks for having me. >>Absolutely so lot of social media memes about. You know, what's driving your digital transformation is the CEO, the CEO or CO of it, and I think we all know what the answer is. But what's what's happened is, as we've, you know, accelerated digital transformation, and we had the lights light switch moment, everybody working from home. We're now six months, eight months into this, and this is gonna be going on for a while. So specifically in the context of Dev Ops, where such a foundation of that is us getting together every morning in a room and having a quick stand up and talking about what our challenges isn't going out to develop. We have been able to do that for six months, and we're probably not gonna be able to do it for a little while longer. So how is Dev? Ops in 2021? The Age of Covert and even Post Cove? It's gonna be different from what we had say 2019. >>Yeah, Jeff. A couple years ago I wrote a piece called Designing Developer Spaces, and it was all about creating physical spaces for agile teams. Toe work in because as creative teams, they needed to have an environment that supported them. And the idea of remote working was kind of like unaudited e. You know, there was a list up on git hub of companies. It's a or did remote developers. And it was maybe 100 companies long at that point. And, you know, now you know, in in 2020 every company is a remote development company. And so all those investments in physical spaces to support cross functional co located teams aren't something that we're able to take advantage of today, and as a result, it's forcing companies Thio become even more disciplined with respect to the things that they do to help development teams work together. It's enforcing them to to, you know, focus on what I would call spiritual co location, because physical co location is no longer an option. And you can't do that without having and even higher attention toe automation on Dev ops practices that enable it, but also an increased focus on enabling digital collaboration, moving from things like the physical con bond wall that you put index cards on onto tools that help you replicate that sort of capability. But do it in a digital world when you have 100% remote developers, right, >>right, so so just begs a lot of questions. You know? What should people be measuring? How should they be measuring? I mean, we have all kinds of measurement tools, and obviously the devolves process is continuous thing that's happening every day, pushing out new releases every day. How dio the managers kind of rethink about how they're measuring outcomes. I don't wanna say success because it's really outcomes and not activity. >>Yeah, it's a really timely question, Jeff. You know, I've been getting a lot of questions from from large enterprise development shops about Well, how doe I make sure that my employees are still productive now that I can't see them. Should I be measuring individual productivity? You know my answers. You know, I don't think so. You really want to be able Thio? You really want to be able Thio measure the team level, But you may want to allow individuals to begin toe look at their own productivity metrics and benchmarks themselves because they can't see the person next to them in the other desk or have that conversation and know that they're doing a good job. So the way that managers works changes significantly. Andi. That's one of the things that we'll talk about in November, >>right? And I'm just curious. How much stuff can we pull from? Generic leadership is well, because it's the same situation. I love your I love your concept of spiritual alignment that's also got to come not only from the Dev Ops team, but from all the senior leadership now who don't necessarily have the opportunity to reinforce those messages in the hallway or whatever the kind of the normal communication channels that they used before. But this this is well beyond Dev ops, but really, you know, leadership in general, I would say, >>Yeah, it comes down to data collaboration and shared vision. You know, those principles are not unique to software development, but they're extremely important for any type of creative work. And and that's what software development is. So we can learn a lot from from from from the businesses, the whole. But then we need to apply it specifically in the process and context of developing software. And that's where Dev Ops creates the link to enable that happened. >>Yeah, really? An interesting kind of fork in the road, if you will. Dev Ops has been around for 20 some odd years. Fundamental change in the way software respect and built and delivered. But as you said, I mean, even by definition, um, cross functional co located teams simply aren't enabled today and probably won't be for a little while longer. So I think this is probably, ah, lot of information that people are really excited to hear. >>Yeah, especially because we're now out of the sprint phase. We're moving into a marathon. We're gonna have to deal with this for probably at least the next 8 to 12 months. So we've got to start thinking differently for the long term and and and how we keep our employees productive. But we also keep them happy and make sure that they aren't burning out so that they're developing great software. That really matters. >>Yeah, that's great. Well, thanks for the little tease we look forward to getting. Ah, a lot more meat in this topic and diving in in November. So, Jeffrey, Thanks for stopping by and again. His Dev Ops Virtual Form, November 18th, 11 a.m. Eastern 80 and Pacific. Jeffrey, we'll see you there. >>Can't wait. It'll be a lot of, um >>Alright. He's Jeffrey. I'm Jeff. You're watching the Cube, So get ready. Mark your calendars for November. It's the Dev Ops Virtual Forum. Um, November 18 11 a.m. Eastern eight, Pacific Sea There. Thanks for watching.

>> Same thing, Bill, help me in and I'll give you a five count. Guys, this has to be in the vault until think, like everything else. Same, same protocol. Okay. Okay, great. Got you Tiller. Five, four. Hi, Everybody. This is Dave Vellante. Welcome back to theCUBE's coverage of IBM think 2020, the digital event experience. And I'm very excited to bring in Itumeleng Monale. She is a woman in AI, leader 2020 honoree, was being announced, I think 2020. Itumeleng, first of all, congratulations. Thanks for coming up, we wish you were in Silicon Valley, in Moscone to handle the award, personally. But congratulations are in order. Terrific honor. >> Thank you very much Dave >> So I'm interested in, as people know, who follow theCUBE, very passionate about promoting diversity. And in particular, really, women in tech. It's been something that we've been covering for a decade. But I'm interested in how you got started in your data journey, how you got started in tech. Why? >> I think I just fell into it, To be honest, it found me. I began my career 21 odd years ago, as a management consultant really, and I specialized in strategy. So I really have to say that data found me, and information found me. And I left consulting after about six years, and started working in a bank also in a strategy role, but very quickly realized at the time, that digitization was going to be the next wave that allowed us to be competitive. And at the time, there weren't a lot of people in the digital banking space, and the bulk of our transactions and how we did things, was still over the counter and face to face. So I guess, I saw the opportunity, and we started building a self service and digital banking capability, which I ran for about six years. And after that, once you develop digital capabilities, whether it's an app or an interface, you quickly realize that actually it's not the main show. And data is behind everything that you presenting at the front end. So, I then saw a gap again, in the organization in the form of data management. We were spending a lot of money trying to leverage data, but the data was a bad policy, we didn't have good governance, we didn't have good processes, only Lifecycle Management behind it. And hence then there was another opportunity to go and establish a proper data management practice. So, here I find myself. >> So I have to ask you so, I mean, we love to honor women. However, we have the sort of, when I talk to women leaders, I get kind of two camps and not to generalize, but I'll generalize. One is, hey, I had to fight through all the stereotypes. I had to do more than my male colleagues. I broke through the glass ceiling, and I did it and I'm very proud of it. The other end of the spectrum is, I'm a successful leader and I just happened to be a woman. What are your thoughts on that? Where do you fall on that? >> I think all of it is true, to be quite honest. Dave. You know, yes, as females at a certain point in my career, I found that you did have to fight for a voice, you did have to speak up, but I certainly wouldn't have gotten where I am without, not without a sponsor and men, allowing us the space to actually give those opinions and have a voice. So I'm grateful to kind of the people that came before us, and they all happen to be men, but they saw the talent, that we have a network competent, and therefore, had we not been competent, I don't think we'd be here either. So it's a mix of both. And it's not just around being a female, it's about fighting for a cause, right? So whatever it is that you're championing as a leader, if you really believe in that purpose, by nature you're probably going to swim upstream a little bit and fight for it until it's an established kind of status quo. >> What advice would you give to organizations, that I mean the stats are less than 20% of the technology, of employment, or women? I think it's you know, 15 to 17%. What advice would you give to organizations that want to tap this rich talent pool and bring in more diversity into their organizations, but they tend to look in their own, you know, comfortable circles. What would you suggest? >> Well, I think you just really have to take the plunge, you have to challenge yourself, beyond what you perceive as normal. We all have to challenge ourselves in terms of unconscious biases. And I think organizations that are most successful, have acknowledged to themselves that the brain's trust that they have might not be enough. And bringing in new energy, is always going to make you more competitive than others. So really look to the next generation, look for young people look to different genders, look to different nationalities, to really make the quality of whatever it is that you're providing as a service or a product that much more relevant and better to your target audience. The reality is, you know, 51% of the globe are female. So if you don't take a female voice, in terms of developing whatever it is for your client base out there, you're missing half the mark. >> Words to live by Itumeleng, you know, it's one of the great pleasures of being a CUBE host, is we get to meet really interesting people like you. I hope that someday we get to meet face to face. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing your story. >> Thank you so much, Dave. Much appreciate >> And thank you for watching everybody. This is our continuous coverage of IBM think 2020, the digital event experience. Dave Vellante. You're watching theCUBE.

[Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] me [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] so [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] so [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] me [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Applause] so [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] so [Applause] [Music] so [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] um [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Applause] [Music] so so [Applause] so [Music] so welcome to cyber security insights we're excited to talk to you today about some of the key developments in the cyber security area let me start off by saying you know security's always been a board room topic boards care about it but right now it's actually getting even more important given what's happening covered 19 given the risk the world faces the fact that 70 percent of the workforce is now really working from home at vmware we have all of our employees working for we made that a mandate not just required but we're taking a cautious approach as to how they come back that's the reality of many of our customers but the bad guys are not staying still 148 increase in ransomware during this time they're just looking for every way to take advantage of innocent people working at home and then we've seen 52 percent increase of all attacks in the march time frame targeting the financial sector so it's very important that you we have a different approach to security because our belief is the security industry has been broken uh you'll see on this chart 5000 odd vendors 15 or 20 different categories and it's often i described like going to a doctor to stay healthy and she tells you you've got to take 5 000 tablets and you fall off your chest and that's just not possible you know so how do you prevent staying having 5000 tablets taking 5000 tablets to stay healthy you eat your vegetables your fruit your proteins drink your water you make it part of your hygiene and that's what needs to happen in security we've got to move away from this bolted on approach siloed approach where you've got you know various differences feels like even 5000 tablets 5000 security tools are all kind of like healthcare deem themselves very important and also from security that's just focused on threats and the new approach needs to be one that's more built-in intrinsically part of the platform like making a part of your diet more unified as opposed to just siloed across all of the key pillars of security and a lot more context-centric rather than just threat centric to do this we've been looking at kind of the value proposition of vmware we're you know about a 10.8 billion dollar company and have played across these three or four layers off being a digital foundation for the world any cloud any app any device with intrinsic security you've seen this from us several uh over the last several years what we've sought to do is layer into that diagram five or six important control points in security that we think are going to be super important to make security intrinsic let's start off on the bottom right corner of this with network security we think a new approach for network security means that if you look at data center networking or firewalls or load balancing or sd-wan what is a 30 billion dollar opportunity a new approach you know could be one way you could have in one platform all of those capabilities in something that's more software-defined that's what we've been doing uh in with nsx a platform some customers call us sort of the tesla of networking because we're taking a somewhat you know traditional hardware-defined approach to networking and building a more software-defined networking stack for security much the same way a tesla is building a software-defined car if you go to the left-hand side you see kind of the endpoints but it's two different forms of endpoint an endpoint that's on the client side near the device a laptop tablet a phone or a endpoint that's closer to the server a workload or a container and in both areas we believe we have an opposition proposition to really be the best uh security solution for endpoint and workload security identity we think there's a tremendous opportunity to be the best solution that not just some ourselves but also partners with the best of breed players for example um octa or azure active directory in cloud security we're going to do a lot ourselves for example cloud security posture management but we're also going to partner with the likes of well web gateways and and proxies like z scale or netscope and then analytics is the big kahuna because the more data that you have the more equipped you are to prevent breaches and what we believe here is this notion of what the analysts are now calling xdr collecting telemetry from all of these control points which we have exposure to network endpoint workload identity cloud and having one big data lake where you reason over this with a variety of behavioral and ai algorithms and then provide the best way by which you can protect customers from possible future security events this is something we well best because we actually collecting the most telemetry of anybody from disparate different sources and you're gonna only see this increase so vmware's proposition uh as you look at this we today have a billion dollar security business i know you're gonna listen to that and say wow where did that come from some customers call us one of the best kept uh security secrets in the industry uh a significant about that comes from network security a growing part of it now comes from endpoint security we think the opportunity is to take that billion dollar business it's about 20 000 odd customers and double or triple that by really focusing in these five or six control points you're going to see us build the best products in each of these categories but one that's intrinsic and also works between them in ways that are incredible let me give you a couple examples with carbon black we're going to make it agentless on the server side with vsphere nobody else can do that we're going to do that and you're going to see that very soon with carbon black we're going to make it unified with workspace 1 on the console so you have a unified approach there on both the console and the agent something that you also start seeing from us very soon these are things that nobody else in users can do network security you're going to see from one platform data center networking load balancing firewalls and sd-wan beautiful security-centric networking story so this is the approach for folks and now i think as we listen to several of the thought leaders and analysts you're going to hear them get into this story in more detail thank you very much let's continue in this show cyber security insights and now we'd like to explore the unified approach of security and i.t how do you unify them as a foundation for success our special guest today is chris sherman who's senior analyst at forrester and a pretty renowned security uh researcher and thought leader himself chris welcome to the show great to be here with you sanjay you know i'm sitting here in my living room in cleveland ohio as we uh ride down the curve right fighting off a cabin fever and staying healthy hope you're doing the same chris i'm doing well but listen i look at your beautiful looking um you know i can't confess that my background is my natural i've got a virtual background is that actually your living room or is that a virtual background it is this is my living room we built the house last year and it's also my little private iot lab because you know i'm a huge nerd and i love my devices we've been you know kind of a big fan of a lot of the forester research zero trust security you mentioned your research and iot uh i.t security and i'd like to explore this a little further with you chris i'm a big fan of your research read a lot of your stuff uh but let's kind of focus in you know clearly in this time having security strategy and i.t strategy be together in this current climate many organizations have had to pivot uh due to covert 19. you know one example is employees having to work at home which raises a whole host of cyber security issues and you know having reviewed the research results it makes them i think even more relevant the need for security and i.t to join forces i believe right now to defeating the cyber criminals during the pandemic um so that we don't have this risk and quite frankly you know we've been finding the risk is even higher because the bad guys aren't sleeping uh even if there's a crisis going on so maybe you can tell us a little bit more about this research and your findings absolutely yeah so you know i think the genesis of this research really started with a conversation i had with some of your team members back in november uh we talked about you know the high level of friction between these two teams right between i.t and security and frankly the lack of support that a lot of the existing tools in the market really have for you know integrating the two and when you look across the industry there really aren't a whole lot of resources for buyers or you know technology strategists that you know want to understand these dynamics and you know this is really what led to vmware commissioning forester to uh you know this past february to survey over 1400 security and it ops decision makers across the globe we really wanted to probe those dynamics right you know what's holding companies back from eliminating this friction right this really was actually the largest sample size of any commissioned study that i've been a part of here at forester and it really led to some excellent results and and data as you know from the uh published research i'm looking forward to to reading them and knowing more about it and you know i think if you think about the research and uh you know there's a shift in security driving alignment and collaboration security and it's you know kind of the top initiative we see in the next 12 months uh maybe even tell us about why the relationship between these security and id teams um you know are important whys have been strained across both you know all three of people process and technology yeah i mean so i team security really are two sides of the same coin right but unfortunately their teams have struggled to work well together for many years according to our survey date it's gotten to the point where 83 of both team staff report a negative relationship between the two it's very unfortunate but there are many reasons for this you know many reasons for this friction especially with the vp director and manager roles between the security and the ite teams you know at a high level most of this is driven by the fact that security and i.t have differing priorities right our data backs us up you know you have i.t on one side that's focused on technology efficiency and uptime and from our conversations with it staff it's clear you know they view security as philosophically opposite you know to this right often as roadblocks to accomplishing their goals and then on the other side security's top priority is as you'd expect responding to security events and incidents and preventing compromises and this difference in priorities is the source of a lot of friction also both security and i.t staff are really unhappy with the technology that the tools specifically that they're using or the security tools the c cios and csos you know that we talked to all had the same complaint they have too many disjointed tools in fact the average across our study was 27 security products on average in each organization and even the most established security solutions like take firewalls for example you know it caused some serious angst right we found that only 52 percent of respondents felt that their firewalls were satisfactory in terms of the performance and the security uh efficacy i think you know listen a couple of points i'll point point out from what you talked about that resonate deeply with us one is when you talked about uh i don't know it was 25 or 27 odd tools i'd be surprised the number of csos i talked to who say it's in the dozens one i think i always sort of keep a record for the number of tools i've heard one tell me it was like 100 different security tools i asked you know him was there a hundred different consoles so it's just the number of tools and consoles uh the other one that you resonated with me was even in one of the more mature areas like firewalls you would have thought oh people are really happy there we find the same level of dissatisfaction with people saying listen traditional hardware-based approaches appliance-based approaches lots of policy way way too complicated um now let's talk a little bit about staffing i think it's it's you know listen at the end of the day security is a team sport it does depend on products and processes and technology but there's also people and you know we security teams are understaffed they're increasingly dealing with a complex portfolio of these non-integrated products how uh is this impacting teams and what can companies you do as you advise them to reduce complexity from the plethora of different products that are often point products today well you're right right finding and training the right item security staff is really critical to the success of the respective teams unfortunately this continues to be a major pain point right across the whole industry in fact 64 of the security teams that we surveyed and 53 of the it teams reported they're understaffed but yeah i mean amid this global pandemic when most organizations are focused on surviving and you know maybe keeping the lights on or i guess in this case maybe the vpn's running right and getting by with limited resources and protecting an increasingly remote workforce it's much more difficult to collaborate and work together across teams but our data showed that one of the major results of this you know the formation of communication silos you know teams aren't communicating enough right they're they're communicating within their or organization designed for their particular use case right with very little integration and collaboration across those silos and you know this is where tools could help right most of the time though they the tools actually just reflect or amplify those silos by reinforcing the division right between the two teams ultimately organizations may be looking for technologies that can support the needs of both it and security right this will help alleviate any tension that might arise over things like competition over limited resources right ideally once the teams come together and agree on goals as well as objectives and and measures of success for that matter right they can address their technology stack inherent complexity wisely said listen the security attacks are becoming more sophisticated uh organizations are considering now i think the approach as you've described is a unified strategy to address these critical issues uh can you tell us more about how you've seen these unified approaches to security strategy being effective well so i mean it seems like we've been talking about unifying the tools and strategies by you know i.t ops and security for years right but it's only been recently that we've seen the two sides really demonstrate any appetite to actually do so unfortunately most of the tools again right on the market are focused on one or the other and integrations are only starting to really accelerate to the point where our true unified vision is even possible this not only aligns teams under common goals right having a common tool set but it also aligns workflows between those two teams and helps foster collaboration uh listen uh you mentioned a couple of these these examples are really good for people to kind of grop you know in this have you uh outside of these exams or any other sort of tangible results uh that you think companies can expect uh as they bring together their security and id strategies and make them more unified what are the results from your research you think customers can expect to gain yeah there are several other you know clear benefits right that we identified in this research right the benefits to unifying the tech stacks between it ops and security our research showed that companies with a unified strategy reported fewer security incidents fewer data breaches which makes sense right given how critical endpoint configuration and overall i.t hygiene is to the security posture of an organization also you know building security capabilities directly into the it infrastructure helps to motivate non-security staff to take some ownership right over basic security fundamentals and this all helps speed right this this increases the speed to you know both detect new threats and uh respond once they're you know identified you know time to containment right this was also validated by our survey data a common strategy really can empower both to you know mitigate risk ensure continuous compliance and improve you know their threat response uh workflows you know between the two teams really companies need to find tools that meet the needs of both teams and at the end of the day as you pointed out security is a team sport right we all benefit from working together to protect the business and its employees right from malicious actors especially in these difficult times that's great chris thank you for uh your research um um so i just encourage all of you are listening um if you want to um you know get chris's research um you know go to this url on the screen here and you'll be able to download it uh we're excited about it i mean listen you know personally when i watch it teams and security teams sometimes sort of spar each other um you know i i i think that increasingly whether the security team reports under the cio sometimes that's the case sometimes security teams report into the chief legal officer or they report maybe into the cfo wherever reporting structures are only you have to build a team sport because there's aspect of this that's policy aspects of this that are technology there are aspects of this that are people uh thank you for this research chris as always i'm a fan of uh the stuff as are all of we and what you're right so it's always good to be able to see more this is also much of the other extended uh forest to work like zero trust that have become kind of the things that i've seen now becoming more pervasive in the industry so thank you all for listening to this uh and we hope we'll continue to serve you in the course of this program cyber security insights with more insights like this it's my pleasure right now to also continue this uh cyber security insights series now with a wonderful interview um with the head of security and infrastructure at circle k suzanne hall um i've had a chance to briefly meet her prior to this and she's got an incredible vision of how infrastructure security comes together uh in the context of retail so i'm looking forward to the discussion suzanne thank you for joining us today thanks sanjay glad to be here great hey listen maybe i'll start with um you know circle okay some folks may know you in the locality in the areas where they shop or whatever have you but many folks around the country may not and we're assuming there'll be a very large audience watching this tell us a little bit about the company what you guys do uh what's your vision and how are you serving uh customers and consumers oh terrific oh well yeah so circle k uh many people do not realize it's actually a canadian-owned company we are a global uh convenience and fuel service organization uh with with offices all across north america uh large part of northern europe um and with franchises in a large part of asia as well we're the second largest convenience store company in the world and the 11th largest retailer we yeah we acquired circle k the brand um back in the early 2000's and uh our goals right now over the next five years are to try and double in size um which is a pretty aggressive goal goal considering uh our organization which really is taking a you know 60 billion dollar organization and trying to double that in the next five years so wish us luck let's focus now a little bit more on the infrastructure and security part of it um it's interesting that you own both as you think about those areas um you know how are they linked together and what have you been doing to tie uh infrastructure topics and security topics which are often you know you have a ciso and then a cto owns infrastructure in your case you own both and i think it's a classic way in which you know we're trying to kind of get traditional it teams the security work world to go you're living it then you're breathing and you're implementing your team uh how is it working out and how are you making it work yeah oh sorry it was actually a key part of me being attracted to the to this world i've been here about 18 months um i really feel for certain organizations culturally if you can make it work where security operations can function together um it really empowers your security team to move things quickly and it also gives me the opportunity to take ultimately super scarce resources from the security side and build uh more security acumen within my network teams and my hosting teams and my infra um so that i get actually really smart technologists that also get security collaborating with really great security folks that also get technology there's a lot of synergies that i that i get from that from combining these two organizations and where circle k was before i got here you know we we um did need to rapidly mature a lot of our security program um because it had just um grown uh i think the organization grew beyond the competencies of the security team before i got here and so by having both sides of that house i was really able to move things quickly um kind of i don't have to i don't have to uh negotiate between the network team and the hosting team the security team because they all report up to me and i get i get to pick who wins all the time so it works really well i'd love to talk to you but just cover it it's on on everybody's mind it's changed transformed how we all work you and i are doing this interview work from home uh if we were doing it in different concerts i have to come to you or come to us we have done this in the studio together or in an event um and certainly it's you know kind of changing the ways in which we work and family life and so on and so forth but how is it changing your business how is it changing your i.t organization uh and how have you had to adapt to um you know this time that we're sheltering place work at home yeah well it's really it's changed everything for us as i'm sure for for most of your of your clients as well um you know obviously serp okay being convenience we are uh on the front lines we are open across the globe we may have some small stores that may get closed for periodic periods of time or maybe some shortened hours but we've got convenience workers and gas station workers working around the globe through coven so we've had to change how the stores look and feel um we've had to rapidly deploy things like curbside delivery to really adjust to uh customers um wants and expectations and then we've had to take the entire back office and put people working at home which was not our culture um before this all happened and we had to do that almost like in watching a wave go across the globe as it started uh offices started closing in northern europe first uh and then and then all the way through to ireland and then and then obviously the east coast and canada and all the way through to the west coast so um we actually had a very short period of time to create a remote working uh operation um luckily enough um we had some really talented folks we put a couple different solutions in place and uh within two weeks or so we were able to get everybody working remotely that could work remotely and then that really empowered us to support all those operations folks that needed to get things like plexiglass into the stores hand sanitizers into the stores masks uh um into the stores uh to serve our customers and to serve our staff i'd like to move on um then to the um the kind of the context of this infrastructure and i.t workers and security work i.t teams and security teams working better together one of the things we find often and we did some research with forester that where companies performed well and had great you know security prevention practices breaches places where i t and security work well together and traditionally often csos uh may be separate from the infrastructure team sometimes csos don't even report into ci support elsewhere and that can be uh not intensely so sometimes intentionally but often just a silo or a warring mentality you're good evidence now where you're bringing these together let's talk a little away from technology for a second and the people process collaboration how have you been able to bring these cultures together so that they work together for the common good of either cost saving protection whatever have you yeah you know um and so i've had the benefit of being a cso and a cio and a couple different organizations and also i was in i was in consulting for many years i worked for a big four uh from a letter of cyber practice with one of the big four firms and i'll tell you cyber programs uh move fast forward best when there's a couple of key elements in place and the first one is you have to have shared goals anytime that the cyber team is trying to implement something um in that the network team isn't on board with or the network team picked a tool they don't want to implement the tool that the cyber team is as um and has selected i mean that's that's always a recipe for failure so somehow you have to really work on aligned goals and i do that even though i own the infrastructure teams and the security teams um nobody's successful if we're not all successful together and really focusing on what does success look like for for each one of the each one of our areas and look sometimes you know we do have to take some uh educated risks in the environment you know for responding to things quickly but we also don't take we don't um let those risks sort of linger and and never get remediated right so we really work together to make sure that any new risks that we're taking on we have a focus on how we're going to mitigate that and we hold ourselves accountable and um and the network team is equally accountable for responding to security events as a security team is the key element i also say to my security teams is when you're working with production operations teams and and folks you've got to have skin in the game you've got to recognize that they're trying to keep systems up and running 24 7 you know for the operations of the organization right so we can take credit cards and cash in the stores and make the sales and deliver the goods and services when we need to if the security team isn't seen as fully on board with that mission and that um that responsibility then there's there's a non-equity sort of relationship going on between the two different teams so you really need to bring them all together and make sure that everybody um understands supports each other's wins and goals it's awesome that you've been a cio and a ciso and you've seen all of these in various different companies i'm sure maybe in smaller bigger wherever have you so you're able to really relate to that uh i find the csos i talk to uh most of my relationships in the years past have been with cfos and cios uh i set myself a personal goal this year as we started getting more into security as i've been shaping that strategy of the company to meet a thousand cesars i was 15 years ago at symantec and most of the csos i know are retired and moved on so uh it's a good new way of my understanding and i find as i talk to them so refreshing the ones who are strategic like yourself uh have had tremendous experience in id or are also owned them and are able to paint a vision that's very collaborative as to as opposed to ones who don't then are also able to strategically bring teams together so it's really good to to see that i'd like to kind of just work a little bit more into security because i mean your strategy plays into the reason we're quite carbon black um and you i have some obviously you know knowledge and investment vmware but i'm listening as i was listening to prior to getting on to this you know program together you're probably doing more with carbon black which is awesome i mean it'll probably strengthen our relationship with vmware too and of course but we can talk a little bit about that what's been your history carbon black why you picked them and where do you see that going on the endpoint security um and then i'll talk a little bit about how we're trying to try that into infrastructure too yeah so um so my relationship with carbon black goes back to uh almost right after i first arrived at circle k um obviously i know uh from having come from consulting a number of different uh tools and products out there um although carbon black always had a really good reputation and strength and um i went to carbon black pretty early on and said you know here's my here's my situation i've got a little bit of carbon black and a little bit of other things in different places i really want to standardize on a single tool i really want to get to a better visibility of my overall network and of my of my risks and ultimately i want to have a single pane of glass but um that you know i've got folks working from an eyes on 24 7. um you know carbon black hands a table really quickly and had a great vision uh for how they could get us uh standardized across some different versions that we had um and when i said okay i want to do this in six weeks or fewer um they didn't say we can't make that happen um i think a lot of people on my team wish that they'd said that we can't make that happen but um but now we were able to really rather quickly um deploy and and get up to speed across all of our stores across all of our networks all of our you know we're a very distributed organization i've got offices all across north america and europe um and uh and we were able to in six weeks get get standardized and get things up and running and i had gained great visibility uh in that and i'm a big believer when looking at all sorts of tools whether they're input tools or security tools that you know you can tell whether or not you've picked the right solution if it's fit for purpose relatively quickly if it feels like it's too hard to implement if it just feels like it's you're not getting the value out of out of something in a relatively quick period of time you really do need to look at whether or not the tool you're looking at is fit for purpose in your environment and i would say the carbon black team and the carbon black tool that made it really easy for us and um you know it's giving us great visibility we have been able to uh detect and respond to a number of different instances you know retail is a very uh high threat high target industry these days um so it's been it's been super helpful in us defending um circle k in our environment and with 130 000 employees i suspect your number of endpoints are in the tens of thousands on the client side and probably just as many in terms of server-side endpoints right so your your kind of surface area of potential endpoints is pretty large oh indeed and you know but you know you have over 15 000 stores every store has multiple point of sale systems and at multiple uh computers laptops tablets devices um and that's and that's even before i go out into the uh what we call the forecourt which is where the gas dispensers and pumps are so yeah it's very complex well listen we look forward to that journey together part of what she has talked about here is a key part to our vision uh folks listening to this is to basically bring together security to make it key parts of the infrastructure both in the endpoint the network and the cloud thank you for your partnership i look forward to getting to know you and your team better um thank you also for all you're doing to serve the community during these tough times especially those workers at circle key that are the front line in the stores we appreciate you tremendously and we look forward to continuing this dialogue thank you very much thank you thank you everybody for watching this cyber security insight segments titled security as a team sport we talked about the shift in security and how security is moving to a shared responsibility model in this team sport in this segment we also discussed the benefits of a consolidated security and an i.t strategy that allows for fewer breaches and a faster response to security incidents as key benefits that have implemented a common strategy for those who have done this i encourage all of you to watch this part two of cyber security insights the securities of dual mission and we will have two security leaders discussing how security helps not only protect but help drives the business forward thank you all for watching this segment [Music] you

(slow music) >> From around the globe. It's the cube with digital coverage of Red Hat Summit 2020 brought to you by Red Hat. >> Welcome back. This is the cubes coverage of a Red Hat Summit 2020. The event happening digitally this year. We are bringing in Red Hat executives, customers and partners from where they are around the globe. And happy to welcome back to the program. One of our cube alumni. Robin Bergeron is the senior principal community architect with Ansible part of Red Hat. Robin, great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us. So we've got the community coming together even while we're apart. >> Indeed. That's what we're good at. So, I'm glad to be back here again with you all. So, hello. >> All right. So, Robin, we caught up with you last at AnsibleFest of course Red Hat Summit. So much community activity that goes on. The Ansible, community is a big piece of summit even though they also have, the separate AnsibleFest. So just give us a little bit update what's happening in your world and in the community. >> Well. I hate to say it's a, "it's a big wide world" because it sounds very cliche, but the Ansible world is fairly big. I don't know if, let's see, we talked, lasted, AnsibleFest and that was in September in Atlanta, is that correct? >> Sounds right. Yep. >> I believe so. So right around that time was when GitHub released their annual list of, they have a report called the Octoverse they publish every year, in conjunction with their annual event. And one of their metrics they have on that list is, most active projects. So, we clocked in at the number ninth most active project on Github this past year. And that's out of, I've lost count of github, like number of projects. It's not quite the, United States national debt status, but it's a, like a hundred million repositories or something like that. So we're the number nine most active repository this year. And I believe we are one of two projects who's been on that list every year since 2016 I want to say. So, yeah, we're at 5900 contributors right now. So it's, all over the globe. A lot of people keeping us very busy. I guess that and fact it's so busy and we talked about collections a bit when we were at AnsibleFest this past year and it's been a thing that we've been talking about continuously in Ansible community and also, as part of Red Hats product line for a while and we've actually now gotten to the point of sort of splitting out the Ansible repository. Ansible is going to continue to be the, you a car and you look under the engine and there's like the things that make the car run. >> Ansible base, separate from the windshield wipers and all the ad-ons and all the cool stuff that you actually, want to get when you get a car. And that stuff is actually getting split out into Ansible collections that we'll have or repository that's actually more managed by the community, which will empower them to be able to make more decisions for us to be able to get things done, more rapidly. Cause in the past it's always been a really a tug of war between, work and github have always been very respectful about, how the balances between community and product because obviously without a community you don't have a product. And this is a obviously a method that Red Hat has sort of nailed down. I guess IBM really liked the idea. So here we are. But we're really looking forward to, right now we've got a handful of contributors who are adding new modules into this new repo. But, they're also helping us work out all the kinks in the contributor process and how it works that way. Once we opened for business, since we've got several thousand contributors, we don't say, open for business and then have everybody comes running into a glass wall like it and then all on the floor, right? We want the doors to be open. We want the, registers so to speak to be processing things. We want, all the box to be working, all of the, all of the magic to be happening just as it is, as it has in past. But, this time with a little bit more empowerment to the community, that's on a work progress for it was like forever, but, nine months, and here in the next few weeks that will be open for business and we're hoping that, by the time the AnsibleFest rolls around, that will be part of the two, part and parcel to the 2.10 release. And, we're hoping that, even though under the hood for contributors, that's changed. We believe we'll be very transparent brand eaters, which has been one of the most important things for us because, we don't like to break people. That's, >> yeah, >> {Robin] Glad yeah >> Absolutely Robin. So it was one of the key things a announced at a AnsibleFest last year. Anybody that knows the software world is the traditional release train. Get on that train. Got to make sure you get your feature in there. But for a solution like Ansible, which as you said, has a lot of partners and it's a very big ecosystem. If you have to worry about how much stuff do I get shoved into one release, it's a little bit limiting. So you break those pieces up more like the, containers, that go on the train and you can make sure that you're adding and, doing the various pieces as they go. So maybe >> Yeah >> not the perfect analogy. >> Yeah. >> But very important so, Robin, as you've been going through this, I'm wondering, what feedback are you getting from the contributors there? and how about as you said, very active community. We know if anybody you know, says something, you got, the crowd and the wisdom coming in and giving you ideas. But, how do you balance that? You're not going to have everybody be happy about every decision, but making sure that the ultimate release train, does the job and delivers the overall solution. >> Yes. What color are we going to paint? Paint our bike shed. Right? Like the yak for circling. So it's, I don't want to to say it's been mixed, it's, you know, we, I can, I compare and contrast this, one of my, previous roles was being the newer project leader, right. And, which is, as we know the upstream, for Red Hat enterprise Linux, and its some of the, Linux and, a lot of the Linux distributions have been around for forever. Back when there were like, I don't know. 10, 15 opensource projects that anybody at all, could contribute to. Now as we can see looking on, github and many other places get lab, open dev. There's a, you name it, there's a gazillion opensource projects out there. People aren't always as attached to, I don't want to say attached, coz that sounds, terrible, but open source has become such a norm people are just very used to, there's something wrong. I'm going to submit it, I'm going to hope it gets accepted, but I'm going to move on with my life because I also have all these other places that I can also contribute, right. That said, we do have, a significant number of compute of contributors who have been with us back since Ansible started. Some of those folks go back with us to Fidor days, on Linux days on and on and on. Some of them, some folks I have concerns, they do like that this is the opportunity to give them more empowerment to figure out better ways to run the, contributor process. I think the number one thing that everybody's been concerned about is what diseases your experience going to be. And I think that's a testament to, just the power of our community is that, people aren't just concerned about how am I going to get my stuff in and your stuff in and like the tug of war of like, is one person can get something else in before someone else. Everybody's very concerned about is this going to still work for the end users? Is this going to disrupt them? Because it's a change under hood. Are they going to have to change all their playbooks and all of their, rules and everything that they have. And right now the goal is, it should be transparent. Anything that you have written right now, you should continue work, you shouldn't notice. Once we get your 3.O our goal is to ramp people up into harnessing the power of collections. But first we need to get the collections, infrastructure in place, before we get in. Start giving them to artists the power of collections. You can't just flip the switch and be like, hi . So it used to be this way, now we have collections and now you've got to redo everything, right. Because that's-- you still have the opportunity because it's open source. We'll have this window where we can still find all the bugs and get that re rapid feedback, which means, once we roll out, Red Hat Ansible automation platform, the next version. I'm not going to say an AnsibleFest. That would be shocking, right? We never do announcements at events. But, whenever that product comes out, we want to make sure, that power of open source and, having that rapid feedback loop, ensures that, what we end up, we'll bring to customers, winds up being solid, but I believe it will be very, very solid for contributors because or, and, a community. There's, because, a significant number of our contributors are community users and they have that in their own interest in mind. And we've seen that not just from, I'm a community user at a university, but all of our partners are actually participating in the community as well. And there, just painting and chatting and we had a, we had planned to have a European as well contributor summit, which is a thing we normally run in combination or the day before AnsibleFest. and we had planned that for Sweden. I was so excited. I was going to go to Gothenburg. I hear it's a charming little town, except, when we are all stuck in, the a world that we are in currently. so we ran that virtually and a lot of our longterm contributors are actually from Europe. So that was really exciting except for me, cause I had to get up 8 Am but it was still nice to see them all. So we had, 50 some odd folks pop in over the course of, that day. And we talked through elections and debated and, got some demos from folks. Had some folks talk through some specific collections, folks talking about AWS and some of the networking things. So, yeah it was nice to see everyone. I was sad that it wasn't in Gothenburg. But it is what it is. I'm going to roll. >> So Robin, I think back to 2019 an automation, was right at the top of a hot topics. When I talk to practitioners out there, many conferences I went to, not just of course Ansible test, which focus on it, but many other shows and events. Well when you talk to people about key initiatives, its in a really leveraging automation, something that I've heard talked about my entire career, but really it feels like the last painful of years and people are much more serious about it. You know, you referenced the times that we live in right now, we're unprecedented global pandemics. So I'm not saying that, somebody, everybody all of a sudden woke up and say, Oh my gosh, I have to work from home and I need to be smarter. Let me finally use this automation that I've been hearing about all these years. But why don't you bring us into, what is happening today, what you are hearing customers, because automation obviously is a critical piece of what everybody is doing and probably just, shines a light on it even more. Now that we need to make sure that people are being efficient and still being able to deal with their lives while everything else is going on. >> Yeah. It's interesting because some of is, as well as used. Yeah, there's actually a, there's the dependency graph that you can look at on github and it will tell you how many other things in github are actually depending on the Ansible. It's, I can't even remember the number. It's a very large number, like tens of thousands of things as I recall. Disclaimer, my memory is terrible sometimes. I believe it was in the tens of thousands of things. Lots of people use Ansible and it's almost like probably not quite as popular as, the uses Docker container to get started, but, venture to guess it might be a number to that. Type this Ansible thing and this thing will magically come up. Right. For folks that are, in a traditional IT department, just trying to get along, day to day right now who are, they're like me. They're at home, they're with their spouse, they're sharing an office. They're also homeschooling their kids if they got out of bed. Hopefully we all have enough bandwidth. For those folks it's, I'm just glad that I continue to have this Ansible thing, they're using Ansible tower, they're glad that they can still manage to figure out how to collaborate their coworkers in that type of environment. For all the folks out there who are doing, research or trying to set up any type of infrastructure anywhere to related to this, I don't care if it's a, grocery store or you're a research laboratory, whatever it is. Last thing you want to do is spend five hours, be like, oh God okay, let me get out my manual. Where did I, it's hey, there's an Ansible. Excellent, I can type this Ansible thing in. And if for some reason it gets hung up. We have folks on IRC, we have, there's folks on stack overflow . There folks literally everywhere. You can ask a question on Twitter and It's a Pretty large, friendly, global community of people who have plenty of answers. And that's, I can't say we're like, hey, we solved everything, but we got all the >> stuff out of the way so that people can actually solve all of their, they can get down to what's actually important for them. And so that, that's always been one of the most redeeming things about Ansible that it's, for me, it's, the thing that I work on is, it's easy and it helps people solve their problems and gets all there, stuff out of the way so that they can concentrate on what's actually important to them. So I like to think, it's most important to them. And I know it is, but it's interesting seeing how things change, as people are like, are you going to teach a bunch of people Ansible now? And it's like, well, if they're in need of a job, there are a lot of online resources for that. But if they're just trying to get through their job, like everybody's sort of in a don't rock the boat position. Like if I can get a little bit ahead, that's cool. If I've already got a bunch of stuff automated Yes. That's one less thing that I have to worry about right now and that's all we can really hope for at this moment. >> Yeah, great stuff Robin. One of the high point always is seeing, the value and support of the community and as you said, it's something that we definitely see highlighted up out there. All right, Robyn Bergeron, greatest as always to catch up with you. Thank you so much. I'm sure you know so many community activities that people will be able to participate in. This week at Red Hat Summit, even though we're, all doing it remotely, >> and the >> yeah >> challenges there. >> Glad I, great uni central area city. You can come on, come on by and see all of the, various Red Hat open source communities doing their thing. >> All right, watch lots more coverage from Red Hat Summit coming at you. I'm Stu Miniman and always, thank you for watching, the cube (slow music)

>> From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto in Boston. This is an episode in the remote works, Citrix virtual series. >> Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE, we're in our Palo Alto studio here on this ongoing leadership series that we've been doing, reaching out to people in the community to get their take on what's going on with the COVID situation, what are best practices, what can we learn and specifically today, really the whole new way to work, and working from home. And we're really excited to have two guests on for this segment. The first one is Amy Hayworth. She is the Chief of Staff for HR for Citrix, joining us from Florida. Amy, great to see. >> Great to see you, Jeff. >> And also Tamara McCleary, who's been on many, many times coming to us from Denver. She is a well respected speaker, you've probably seen her doing more speaking than anything else, and also the CEO of Thulium. Tamara, great to see you. >> Thank you, I'm so excited for this conversation. >> Well, let's just jump into it. So it's so funny and doing a little homework, Amy, I came across a Professional Change Management executive conference, 2015 and you were talking about building change management as a profession and working from home was part of that and that was like five years ago and things creep along and then we have a light switch moment where there's no time to plan, there's no time to think, there's no time to implement things, it's, everyone must now stay at home. And so, outside the human tragedy, that is the COVID situation, we're not going to really speak to that here. But from a business point of view, suddenly with no warning, everyone had to work from home. From someone who's been in the profession of trying to drive change management through a process over time, what does that do for you? How do you digest that suddenly oh my goodness, we've got this light switch moment which is a forcing function that may have never come, but now we have to go? I wonder what your take is. >> I think the thing that get me most excited about this light switch moment is it is showing all of us that we are capable beyond what we ever thought we were when it comes to change. We've been called to take a leap, and for much of my experience in the organizational change management field, we spend a lot of time talking about managing resistance and the pushback about change and there's even this thing that drives me crazy, which is change is hard. I don't know why we tell ourselves that message. And I think what this is showing us is that number one, change is inevitable, it's going to happen. There is very little control that we actually have, but also we are more resilient, more adaptable. We're capable of change than many of us knew that we were. And it is calling up for me, what do we need to put in place within organizations to cultivate resilience? Because one of the things I think this is making all of us very aware is how volatile the world actually is. And it's also laid bare where we are strong individually and able to cope and where we also may need to do a little bit of practice and some very intentional resilience building. Though I think the conversation around the whole change management field is about to change and my hope is that focus turns more to resilience than it is to managing change. >> It's interesting 'cause a lot of just the chatter that's out there, is about Zoom. Do I use Zoom? Do I not use Zoom? Is it secure? All this other, people like to jump into the technology piece. But really, we had your boss on the other day, Donna Kimmel, the EVP and Chief People Officer, Citrix and she broke it down into three buckets. Culture was number one, physical space is number two and digital space was number three. And I thought it was really interesting that she really leads with empathy and human factors and I think that it's easy to forget those, but bringing up simple things that not only are you working from home, but guess what, your kids are home too and your spouse is home too. And they have meetings and they have Zoom calls, they have to do it or the other dog is still running around and all the other kinds of distractions. So the human factors are so, so important. Tamara, one of your early keynotes about your early development was in your early career working with people who are at the end of their life. And I know it helped you develop an empathy and really a prioritization that I think a lot of people are probably getting today that maybe they haven't thought about, what is truly important, what is truly meaningful. And this again, is this forcing function to say let's pump the brakes a little bit, take a step back and think about what's really important and the human factors. Again, your take on this crazy situation. >> I think you're absolutely right Jeff, and the fact that really what this has done, to Amy's point, yes we are very capable of change, but we're mostly so resistant and unwilling to change. And it's not because we don't want to, it's because we fear what will happen if we do change. And sometimes it's like the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. And right now what has been forced upon us is to really think about critical issues. So when you're faced with a lack of toilet paper and uncertainty about your survival rate, you start to think about things in terms of say Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You're looking at that base level, that safety piece. And when people go to safety, they have really left that area of self actualization in what do I want to be, what do I want to do? And it's more about, oh no, what have I done? Do I like my life? I'm stuck here at home, wherever you're sheltering in place and am I really enjoying my life? Am I experiencing my life? And what we really have experienced through being forced to get on to video conferencing, how many of you out there are doing video conferencing like a billion times a day? We're being forced to really see each other as human beings. And that means whether you're the CEO or you're the EVP of global blah, blah, it doesn't matter. What matters is your dog is still barking, your child is still running around and needs something from you in that moment when you happen to be on a call. Because as we all know, with kids, when you say, I can't be bothered for the next 30 minutes, what do you think is going to happen? That's exactly the time when they need more grapes. So I think that what it does is it levels the playing field and it shows us all how human we are. It shows us our strengths as Amy pointed out, and it also shows us our communal frailty. >> So let's get into some of the specifics about what people are feeling. Citrix just commissioned this report put on by one pole, pretty timely, comes out in April, 2020, about working from home. And I think there was really some interesting stuff, still connectivity and bandwidth, still the biggest challenge that people have. Can I even get online, was the number one problem. And when they do, their wifi is slow and there's single sign on. All these things that we've been talking about for years and years and years. I mean, why, why Amy, have we still not gotten it done? It's fascinating to me that in 2020, we still have internet connectivity issues and people don't know how to turn on their microphone on their Zoom call, we're so far behind. >> Yeah, Jeff, I think what we're seeing is number one, it takes practice, then the need to be familiar with all these tools. I also have talked to many parents who first day of homeschool, my son tells me I can't call it homeschool 'cause it's different, it's virtual school, he says it's very different. But that first day, especially families with multiple children trying to get onto a Zoom call with their class, Heron is trying to work, possibly two parents in the house are connected. Our home WiFi networks just haven't taken this kind of load before, but very quickly I think we needed to realize as an organization that this is not work from home, this is working at home during the global pandemic and it is very different. So you mentioned that need to lead with empathy and to really understand what's going on, and I think that's so true and just that the humanness of what we've experienced, that one full research really talked about a few epic moments of mishap, whether it's taking a call from the garage, I have a colleague who would take from the car on the street, still sheltering in place, but the only quiet place to go to take a call. We have a legend in our Singapore office. There's a salesperson who made record numbers working from his garage for a month. So there are all sorts of heroics taking place to balance than in the midst of that when technology isn't acting as we would hope it would under normal circumstances, having to adjust quickly, whether that means staggering schedules, working through accommodations, teachers, however it needs to happen but I think the reality and the acceptance, going back to that humanness and empathy is that we all have to shift our mindset about what work means and even are at work. We've built up a lot of these polishished buttoned up personas and when we are able to actually let some of that down, I think what we're starting to see is connection on a much deeper level amongst teams and among colleagues. >> I'm just looking at the survey at how few people think that this is going to roll over into a little bit more of a permanent form. Only 37% think my organization in general will be more relaxed about remote working. I think staff will be allowed to work from home more regularly, 36%. We had Marten Mickos on and he ran MySQL before it got bought by Sun many moons ago. He talked that he had a distributed team from day one and he laughed. He said, "It's so much easier to fake it at the office, "to look busy versus when you're remote." As you just said Amy, you're only judged by your deliverables. And I thought it was so funny in your blog posts from earlier this year that when managers start managing by outcome and deliverable rather than assuming as good work's getting done because someone showed up at the office, I mean this is ridiculous that people are still judging things based on activity, not outcome. And we're even seeing now all these new tools that people are introducing in the marketplace. I can tell you how often your people are on Zoom and how many hours on the VPN. What are we measuring? We should be measuring outcomes and the piece that comes up over and over is trust. And if I can't trust you to deliver outcomes, I probably have a bigger problem than managing your day to day. Tamara, you see this all the time in terms of the trust and how important this is to relationships. >> I do and in fact our workforce at Thulium has always been a remote workforce. And for the way that I've built our organization is treat everybody like an adult and get your work done. And we do base everything upon productivity versus FaceTime. And I think that the reason some of these larger organizations have had this concept of show up having that FaceTime means that whoever gets there the earliest and leaves the latest somehow has been a better employee, it's not true. It is about productivity. And I think those wise organizations that look at how much they can save with the costs of like AC heat, the building cost, having a brick and mortar for everyone to come into it is very costly. And it's an old paradigm that a lot of middle managers have, which is this control piece. And that if the people are there in the office, they've got more control. And actually what we find is you don't need that control, especially when you look at the younger generational cohort coming up, how they have a totally different view of work. And we've talked a lot about the future of work and the gig economy, and what this COVID pandemic has done for us is to show us that actually work does get done at home. And in fact in some respects, more work gets done at home because it's harder to stop working when your work is happening right there at home. And so it does blur the lines and the boundaries between the work life than the home life. And so I think you get a lot more out of your employees when they work from home. >> It's funny, when Donna was on, she brought up a really interesting topic. She said, "Every time somebody pushes back on that, "can't be done from home." This job, this person, this type of task can't be done from home. The question should always be like, why? It almost sounds like when you move the whole cloud conversation that we've been tracking, went from, when should I move stuff to cloud, to why shouldn't you move to cloud? And it's not, does it work on a mobile, it should be mobile first. And now this conversation is moving this to, why can't somebody do it from home, as opposed to it has to be done from the office? So I think even just the relative flip of the context of setting up the question seems to be changing. That's why it surprised me that so few people think that it's going to go back. It clearly, especially as this goes on for a while, new behaviors become habits and they become normalized and hopefully, the senior management pays attention to the outcome and again, not this activity which is really not, that's not what you want people to do, you want them to actually get stuff done. >> Jeff and Amy, the other thing I was going to say is, Amy, when you look at the report that Citrix has put out, how many people are even going to be able to go back to work when kids aren't going back to school? And then we have summer, piggybacking onto that, so now you've got parents who have kids at home, what is that outlook? To me, it's not just this simple, okay, it's over, let's get back to work guys, because the rest of our life has completely shifted as well. >> That was actually my conversation today, is starting to really think about holistically when it comes to policies, programs, what are we putting in place for the summer? And not only that, but even some of our employees who have been alone through this, I think at the beginning, there was a very large shift on those who had children or elder care to think about. And at some point, at least in this half of the world, about last week, we really started to hear, worried about this person who's been alone by themselves in their apartment sheltering for over a month. So I think if they start to look at the variety of experiences people are having, really being sensitive to different personas in the organization, different needs, different emotions that are happening and we even start to think about, what does that mean to come back to work? And I know countries and organizations are being very cognizant about doing that. safely, in a very gradual  way of thinking about it, but it starts to get very, very complex very quickly and also from just let's do this well because there's a whole new set. Jeff, you bring up all new set of questions of employees asking, I wasn't allowed to work from home prior, I would like to do that more often now, new conversations with managers about, well, how are we going to measure results? There's a lot of work to be done between now and then, whatever what then is, to really ensure that we help everyone be successful. And I think the conversation we're having, it's likely not going to be one or the other. The new normal is not the old normal and we're not sure what it is but most likely, there's going to be some sort of hybrid working arrangement. Right now, the playing field is leveled and that in and itself is a very different work from home experience. What happens when it's hybrid again and there are some who are remote, some who are in the office, how do we make sure that it's equitable and all the voices have equal opportunity to chime in? Because when people are in the office and their colleague or two is remote, it's not a level of conversation in an organization. So whether that's establishing norms or really just starting to create behaviors where if one person's remote, then everybody's remote no matter if you're in the office or not, you dial in via go to meeting or whatever collaboration tool you're , so all sorts of things to think about, but I guess that is our ecosystem of work is going to change for sure. >> It was so funny in your blog posts, you talked a little bit about that as well. And one of the little paragraphs was, who gets to do it? It's like this binary decision, you can either work from home or you can't. And there's this whole second order impacts that we see on infrastructure, there's nobody in the trains or there's nobody on the freeways. You think, wow, we actually have a lot of freeways if everyone is not on them at the same time. So, begs a lot of questions are why is everybody driving to work at 8:30 in the morning to work on their laptop? Now clearly if you're in construction or service trades and you've got a truck and you got to go do something on site, they have to be there. But I think hopefully what this will do is help people as you're discussing, look at those who can. And even if it's one day a week, two days a week, one day a week, every couple of weeks. The impact on infrastructure, the impact on traffic, the environment, mental health, Amy, you talked about mental health, sitting in a car for an hour each way, every day certainly is not helping anybody feel better about themselves or get more work done. So I think there are so many benefits if you just look at it in the right context, focused on who can, not who can't and the how and the why and the enabler. But it's really interesting, we've talked a lot about the physical space and the cultural space. Imagine if this happened in 2006, before the iPhone came out, the smartphone. Think of the crazy amount of tools that we do have. I mean right now, we're talking and we spread out all over the country. So we're actually in a really fortunate space in terms of the digital infrastructure that we have in place to enable these things. And I know Citrix, you guys have been in the lead of supporting this forever, now even have a whole set up of resources, what's it called, the Citrix Remote Work Hub for people to get resource to figure out everything from the mental health to the WiFi connectivity, to all these other little things as Tamara said, how do you manage the kids and the dog and your significant other that also has Zoom meetings that they have to attend? So it's so many resources that people need to use and not feel uncomfortable that they're alone and could use a little bit of an assist. >> Absolutely well said. When this quickly became a forced experiment to work remote, Citrix has 30 years of history helping enable successful remote work in a secure way and the first thing that we wanted to do was be of service. So pulling together these resources has been a big project and we're so glad to be able to provide this tool set and we truly do hope that it makes this transition stronger, better, it will continue to grow and to evolve even as our own experiences evolve, new challenges arise, but we definitely want to keep it fresh and keep meeting the need that's out there, both internal for Citrix as much as in as long as we've been doing, we don't have it all figured out, we are learning too, this is unchartered territory for everyone, but also to take what we are learning and put it out there in a very transparent way. >> Right, I want to-- >> You know, I was-- >> Go ahead, Tamara. >> Sorry, but there was just something so crazy, Jeff, about the study that Citrix put out. And Amy, I wanted to bring this up to you because you said they're coworkers like, well, so-and-so lives alone, I wonder if they're okay or if they're lonely. But in the study, barely a quarter of the individuals reported any loneliness. I find that to be pretty shocking. >> It is shocking and I think it really speaks to how quickly those happy hours, the Zoom Happy Hours or the gatherings and some of the creativity that started to pop up, but yeah, you made a great point, Tamara, that was surprising and I'm curious if that will continue to be the case. (murmurs) >> But I guess maybe some of us when we got home, we were like, wow, this isn't so bad after all. And then can you imagine? So Jeff, if only 28% of people experienced any loneliness, imagine when you can have peace and quiet in your home again and still work. I think that this really is a lot more delicious than a lot of us anticipated it would be. And, what a grand social science experiment this has been! It's phenomenal. >> The fact that everyone is experiencing it at the same time globally just blows my mind. I was here for the earthquake, I was in Portland for Mount Saint Helens, I've been through a few little things here and there, but those are still regional, there's still a safe space, there's still people that don't have that story. Everyone, six or 7 billion people will have a where were you in March, 2020 story, which is fascinating. And then as you said, it's not only the work from home, there's no time to plan and no time to put infrastructure and, oh by the way, the kids are home too, and school is also from home. So in terms of an accelerant, it's just gasoline on the fire. But I want to jump in a little bit about one of the things you talked about Amy and you'll take camera 'cause you're doing it in your own company, and is in terms of establishing norms. I think people are maybe not thinking about the fact that they either need to establish new norms or they need to be very clear on the communication of what the norms are so that everybody is as you said Amy, feels comfortable in this new space because we have norms at work and now we have to have these new norms and there's all kinds of funny stuff going on in terms of we talked about dogs and kids, that this and that dressed, you're not dressed, you put makeup on, it's funny in the survey, do you take a shower? Only 30 some odd people take a shower every day, which I thought was kind of-- unexpected >> What about the shoe comment? Did you believe that, Jeff, where people actually would wear their shoes to their death? Well, I'll tell you, they didn't ask the women because the women would not be wearing high heels at home if they didn't have. >> They didn't specify which shoes, Tamara, they just said shoes. So maybe the more comfortable flats were the ones that were coming out. But I'm just curious on establishing social norms. Tamara, I'll let you go first, how did you establish them? Was it hard to do? Did they self self-generate and as a leader, do you have to police it or is it self policing? How's that working? And then Amy, from your point in terms of formal communication in a much bigger organization and being part of the HR office, one might say, isn't that already part of HR's charter? But how's that different now? Tamara, I'll let you go first. >> Sure, it's a great question because since we do have a remote workforce, one of the most salient things that I found to be critically important for productivity and collaboration and even cohesion and decreasing those silos between business unit is making sure that we form a community. And so what I mean by that is we have and always have had, we've been using video conferencing since before the pandemic and we have video conferencing meetings where video is on, so that's one of the parameters, is everybody needs to see everyone else's faces, and we have a morning kickoff meeting, an all hands meeting and then we have an end of week one as well and part of that piece, we call a standup where people either share something that's either a challenge within their workplace or with a customer or even in their own personal life, and then they end on something to celebrate because I think it's really important for us to cultivate that. But it really helps the teams to get to know one another. So just because someone in this business unit doesn't work with someone in this business unit, they know one another because of these team meetings that we have. And so I think creating a culture of positivity and collaboration versus competition and creating a culture where people feel a part of a team and a part of something bigger and where they see that their contribution makes a difference to the whole, creates a really delicious community that helps people feel valued at work. And I think with a remote workforce, you have got to pay attention to how you are creating that community and that feeling and sense of value to each and every individual within the organization. >> It's a very different kind of a challenge. Amy, your thoughts on more of a formal approach to establishing social norms to some of these big organizations, or do you treat it differently as a big organization or is it just a bunch of small little clusters of people that work together? >> I have so many thoughts on this, so I would love to have a two hour dialogue with both of you on this topic. Couple thoughts, there's implicit norms that develop organically, and then there's the explicit ones which for whatever reason we seem more hesitant to have very explicit conversations about norms. I don't know if people think it's tedious or something like that, I'm not sure, I haven't done that research yet. But in times of transition, it's so incredibly important just even for efficiency to add certainty, to make sure that everyone has the same message, same expectation to lean a little more heavily on the exquisite norms. Talking about how do we want to begin our meeting, let's reserve the first 10 minutes and just catch up like we would in the hallway. Some of that is a shift to how those meetings probably were happening two months ago. So making sure that everyone understands is that expectation and even little bit more of a warmup question. How's everybody feeling today? And even getting more specific, there is a couple of organizational gurus who I have been following quite a bit lately, Aaron Dignan and Rodney Evans, Aaron wrote a book called "Brave New Work" and they also have a podcast, but they really talk about the organization as an operating system. And when we look at norms, the norms are so much a part of that operating system and getting really clear about who does what here. There're things like how are not taken, how are we following up, in our current climate, who's checking on who? And so having some of those explicit conversations I think are incredibly important. And also for me with some of the work that I've been doing over the last six weeks is trying to harness goodness across the globe. So we have a group of site leaders who meet twice a week, their charge is to look after their location. So every location in the Citrix ecosystem that has more than 20 employees has a designated site leader during this time. And in bigger sites, they have pulled together committees, they're doing things that are local level to keep that site engaged, but what we're also looking to do is harness the best of the best. Some really amazing things, I did a radio calisthenic last night with our team in Tokyo. So something very true and personal to the Japanese culture but other sites, they're doing coffee chats and having drop-ins, celebrity guests, organizational leaders that are pretty high profile just popping in and out actively to have a very authentic Q&A conversations. There's some really inventive ideas to keep people engaged and also possibly establish new norm and I think that the question for me is, what do people like so much that they decide that it stays in place? When we do have of that thing and people are in the office more often, what level of connectivity will we keep? Even, will people start showering every day again? Some of these things, who knows what's going to happen? >> You make me want to go down to a to RNB and look in the meeting rooms at Intel, they used to have a very defined meeting, culture meeting, process meeting establishment, super efficient just like they're making chips. I wonder if they've changed a little bit in light of what's going on, but final note in terms of frequency and variety of communications. Both of you now have mentioned in the communications with your people and what you're hearing about is one is, you got to increase the frequency just period. And in fact, you might actually be communicating more frequently 'cause you don't necessarily chat all the time in the hallways when you're physically together. And the other thing that strikes me is the variety. It's not just the meeting, it's not just information exchange, it's touching base with community, it's establishing deeper relationships, it's doing some social things that, kind of the variety and the frequency of direct communication person to person, just not necessarily closer than six feet within one another has to go up dramatically, and is, as you're seeing in best practices in this new world. Amy, why don't you go first? >> I'm seeing a lot more Slack usage, we are an organization that has a multitude of tools to choose from, Slack being one of them, but highly engaged Slack community. The other thing that's become very clear as an insight is the more authentic the communication, the better. So our CEO, David Henshall has been doing video pieces and they had become increasingly more personal about whether it's his space where he exercises what he's doing for exercise, and the employee response has been deep appreciation for feeling several degrees more connected to our senior leadership. Other senior leaders on the team have profiled their own work from home antic in a very humorous way and so just finding inventive ways to leverage the communication vehicles we have, but at a level that is very true to the situation we're in and very human at their core. >> So Tamara, let me ask you a followup on that. You're big on social, it's a big part of your business helping other companies do better at social and engage in social, and it strikes me, especially in the real senior leadership ranks, there are those who tweet just to pick a platform, like Michael Dell, Sanjay Poonen, some CUBE alumni that you know, and then there's some that don't. And again, we talked about the contrast of IBM now, Ginny didn't tweet now, the new CEO announces it on LinkedIn. When you talk to CEOs and leaders about getting involved in social, I'm sure a lot of them that don't do it, just say the risk reward is not there, why am I going to expose some little personal tidbit of myself when the potential harm is great? But as we just heard from Amy, people like to know who the person is, people want to relate to who the person is. That's kind of part of the whole CUBE thing that we figured out a long time ago, is people are interested in the people that are behind the technology in the companies in the implementation. So how do you advise people, what do you see to convince them that, hey, it's actually in your best interest to show a little vulnerability, to show a little humanity, to maybe be scared sometimes and not necessarily have the right answer? How do you help coach them that these are good things, not bad things? >> It's so brilliant you brought this up, Jeff, because with the pandemic, a lot of the executives that were not on social media all of a sudden wanted to be on social media, and how do I do this, and how do I set up my thought leadership? Because this was a very primary mode of communication. And I think what we're seeing is that you do see a lot of the progressive CEOs and executive members on social media and then what you've outlined is there was a hesitancy by a lot of the CEOs who come from a different paradigm in which the hierarchal structure was such that they got to this level and why do I need to be on social media? And what we're seeing is that this push from the younger generational cohorts, which is they don't really see that hierarchal structure at all, and they want to be able to communicate with their CEO as much as they want to communicate with their manager. And when they can't, there is this distrust and you brought up the trust piece, which is huge. And I do know that a lot of global business leaders in highly regulated industries have been afraid, like in the financial services industry because there are a lot of rules and regulations. So I can understand and appreciate their hesitancy to be on social media, which is like a bit of the wild West. And you see those that are really pretty insulated from anything that they do, you can see like Elon Musk can tweet whatever he wants to tweet, and a lot of executives don't feel that they have that same sort of freedom. And so how we work with them, we work in the B2B and enterprise space is about what is it that you want to be known for? What is it that you're passionate about that would, Amy's point, be uplifting to those who not only work internally, your internal stakeholders, but to even your customers or those on the external, and stick to that? So no, you don't need to tweet about your political feelings, you don't need to tweet about sensitive subjects. We always say stay away from politics and religion, but you can absolutely establish a very authentic transparent, vulnerable thought leadership about the things that you care about. And we say pick three things. What three things do you want people to think of when you're not in the room? Pick three adjectives and then construct your editorial calendar, what you're doing on social media around how those three things are going to come to life. Through all of your email? Through your videos that you share with your community? And also what you're talking about on LinkedIn, Twitter and no, I'm not advising any of the executives to get on TikTok, but I do advise them to be on LinkedIn and Twitter. >> Matt Eastwood is starting to play with TikTok, so I don't know if you follow him on that, but he's a budding Casey Neistat. So I think he's getting into the TikTok thing, or even just TikTok edits, it's great. We could go on and on and on, and I really appreciate the time and it's just interesting again, pulling from Amy's blog post about leadership and you lead with trust, accountability, vulnerability, inclusion and communication. I think those are all human things and I think are so important. So final word, assuming things are going to get better in let's just say a year from now, we get back together and talk about how the new way to work has changed in a post COVID world, what do you hope that we'll be talking about that's different a year from now than we are today? Beyond obviously the COVID itself? Amy, you first. >> Wow. To narrow that down, I hope we are talking about how organizations have invested in helping our people find their strengths and feed with resilience and to understand what it is that helps them operate at their best, no matter what situation that you're in. >> That's great. Tamara? >> Me, Jeff, I'm going to hope that we are talking about the technology that's available a year from now that's going to help us have a much more immersive experience remotely working. So we'll be talking about hopefully things like the haptic internet, well that haptic interface with tactile internet and how AR, VR and mixed reality settings will help us as remote authors to feel like we're actually in meetings and having the same sort of experience that oftentimes we think we get only when we're at the building with everybody else. So I hope we're talking about how technology is really moving the needle forward to helping our remote workforce have that same experience and camaraderie and team building that they do in the physical space. >> Great. Well and again, there's this digital is different than physical, we're not together physically and we can't be right now, but we're together digitally. And so it's not the same, it's different, but there's a lot of good things about it too. So thank you both for taking the time, this has been a really great conversation. Amy, I agree with you, we could go for another couple of hours, but I think the crew would start throwing things at me. So I think we'll have to cut it off here. Thanks again and stay safe and really appreciate the time. >> Thanks, Jeff. >> Thank you. >> All right, thank you for tuning in, thanks for watching theCUBE, we'll see you next time. (upbeat music)

>> Announcer: From theCUBE studios in Palo Alto and Boston connecting with thought leaders all around the world. This is a CUBE conversation. >> Hello everybody, welcome to this special CUBE conversation. My name is Dave Vellante and you're watching theCUBE. We're here with Sanjay Poonen who's the COO of VMware and a good friend of theCUBE. Sanjay great to see you. Thanks for coming on. >> Dave it's a pleasure. In these new circumstances, shelter at home and remote working. I hope you and your family are doing well. >> Yeah, and back at you Sanjay. Of course I saw you on Kramer Mad Money the other night. I was jealous. I said, "I need Sanjay on to get an optimism injection." You're a great leader And I think, a role model for all of us. And of course the "Go Niners" in the background really incented me to get-- I got my Red Sox cap and we have a lack of sports, but, and we miss it, But hey, we're making the best. >> Okay Red Sox is better than the Patriots. Although I love the Patriots. If i was in the east coast, especially now that Brady's gone. I guess you guys are probably ruing a little bit that Jimmy G came to us. >> I am a huge Tampa Bay fan all of a sudden. I be honest with you. Tom Brady can become a Yankee and I would root for them. I tell you that's how much I love the guy. But anyway, I'm really excited to have you on. It's obviously as you mentioned, these times are tough, but we're making the best do and it's great to see you. You are a huge optimist, but I want to ask you, I want to start with Narendra Modi just announced, basically a lockdown for 21 days. 1.3 billion people in your native country. I wonder if you could give us some, some thoughts on that. >> I'm, my parents live half their time in Bangalore and half here. They happen to be right now in the US, and they're doing well. My dad's 80 and my mom's 77. I go to India a lot. I spent about 18 years of my life there, and the last 32 odd years here and I still go there a lot. Have a lots friends and my family there. And , it's I'm glad that the situation is kind of , as best as they can serve it. It's weird, I was watching some of the social media photos of Bangalore. I tweeted this out last night. The roads look so clean and beautiful. I mean, it looks like 40 years ago when I was growing up. When I would take a bicycle to school. I mean Bangalore's one of the most beautiful cities in India, very green and you can kind of see it all again. And I think, as I've been watching some of the satellite photos of the various big cities to just watch sort of Mother Nature. Obviously, we're in a tough time and, I open my empathy and thoughts and prayers go to every family that's affected by this. And certainly ones who have lost loved ones, but it's sort of, I think it's neat, that we're starting to see some of the beautiful aspects of nature. Even as we deal with the tough aspects of sheltered home. And the incredible tough impacts of this pandemic across the world. >> Yeah, I think you're right. There is a silver lining as much as, our hearts go out to those that are that are suffering. You're seeing the canals in Venice run clear. As you mentioned, the nitrous oxide levels over China. what's going on in Bangalore. So, there is a little bit of light in the end of the tunnel for the environment, I hope. and at least there's an indication that we maybe, need to be more sensitized to this. Okay, let's get into it. I want to ask you, so last week in our breaking analysis. We worked with a data company called ETR down in New York City. They do constant surveys of CIO's. I want to read you something that they came out with just on Monday and get your reaction. Basically, their annual growth and IT spend they're saying, is showing a slight decline for 2020. As a significant number of organizations plan to cut and/or delay IT expenditures due to the coronavirus. Though the current climate may suggest worse many organizations are accelerating spending for 2020 as they ramp up their work-from-home infrastructure. These organizations are offsetting what would otherwise be a notable decline in global IT spend versus last year. Now we've gone from the 4% consensus at the beginning of the year. ETR brought it down to zero percent and then just on Monday, they went to slight negative. But, what's not been reported widely is the somewhat offsetting factor of work-from-home infrastructure. VMware obviously plays there. So I wonder if you could comment on what you're seeing. >> Yeah, Dave, I think , we'll have to see . I'm not an economic pundit. So we're going to have to see what the, IT landscape looks like in the overall sense and we'll probably play off GDP. Certain industries: travel, hospitality, I mean, it's brutal for them. I mean, and I hope that, what I really hope, that's going to happen to that industry, especially there's an infusion through recovery type of bill. Is that no real big company goes under, and goes bankrupt. I mean kind of the situation in 2008. I mean, people wondering what will happen to the Airlines. Boeing, hospital-- these are ic-- some of them like Boeing are iconic brands of the United States and of the world. There's only two real companies that make planes. So we've got to make sure that those industries stay afloat and stay good for the health of the world. Health of the US economy, jobs, and so on. That's always one end. Listen, health and safety of our employees always comes first. Before we even think about that. I always tell people the profits of VMware will wait if you are not well, if your loved ones not well, if your going to take care of people, take care of that first. We will be fine. This too shall pass. But if you're healthy, let's turn our attention because we're not going to just sit at home and play games. We're going to serve our customers. How do we do that? A lot of our customers are adjusting to this new normal. As a result, they have to either order devices with a laptop, screens, things of those kinds, to allow a work-from-home environment to be as close to productive as they work environment. So I expect that there will be a surge in the, sort of, end points that people need. I will have to see how Dell and HP and Lenovo, but I expect that they will probably see some surge in their laptops. As people, kind of, want those in the home and hopefully their supply chains are able to respond. But then with every one of those endpoints and screens that we need now for these types of organizations. You need to manage them, end point management. Often, you need virtual desktops on them. You need to end point security and then in some cases you will probably need, if it's a remote office, branch office, and into the home office, network security and app acceleration. So those Solutions, end point management, Workspace ONE, inclusive of a full-fledged virtual desktop capability That's our product Workspace ONE. Endpoint Securities, Carbon Black and the Network Platform NSX being software-defined was relegated for things like, load balancers and SDWAN capabilities and it's kind of almost feels like good, that we got those solutions, the last three, four years through acquisitions, in many cases. I mean, of course, Airwatch and Nicira were six, seven, eight years ago. But even SD-WAN, we acquired Velocloud three and a half years ago, Carbon Black just four months ago, and Avi in the last year. Those are all parts of that kind of portfolio now, and I feel we were able to, as customers come to us we're not going in ambulance-chasing. But as customers come to us and say, "What do you have as a work-at-home "for business continuity?" We're able to offer them a solution. So we did a webcast earlier this week. Where we talked about, we're calling it work in home with business continuity. It's led with our EUC offerings Workspace ONE. Accompanied by Carbon Black to secure that, and then underneath it, will obviously be the cloud foundation and our Network capabilities of NSX. >> Yeah, so I want to double down on that because it was not, the survey results, showed it was not just collaboration tools. Like Zoom and WebEx and gotomeeting Etc. It was, as you're pointing out, it was other infrastructure that was of VPN's. It was Network bandwidth. It was virtualization, security because they need to secure that work-from-home infrastructure. So a lot of sort of, ancillary activity. It was surprising to me, when I saw the data, that 21% of the CIO's that we surveyed, said that they actually plan on spending more in 2020 because of these factors. And so now we're tracking that daily. And the sentiment changes daily. I showed some other data that showed the CIO sentiment through March. Every day of the survey it dropped. Okay, so it's prudent to be cautious. But nonetheless, people to your point aren't just sitting on their hands. They're not standing still. They're moving to support this new work-from-home normal. >> Yeah, I mean listen, I forgot to say that, Yeah, we are using the video collaboration tools. Zoom a lot. We use Slack. We'll use Teams. So we are, those are accompanied. We were actually one of the first customers to use Zoom. I'm a big fan of my friend Eric Yuan and what they're doing there in modernizing, making it available on a mobile device. Just really fast. They've been very responsive and they reciprocated by using Workspace ONE there. We've been doing ads joined to VMware and zoom in the market for the last several years. So we're a big fan of their technology. So far be it from me to proclaim that the only thing you need here's VMware. There's a lot of other things on the stack. I think the best way, Dave, for us that we've sought to do this is again, I'm very sensitive to not ambulance-chase, which is, kind of go after this. To do it authentically, and the way that authentically is to be, I think Satya Nadella put this pretty well in an interview he did yesterday. Be a first responder to the first responder. A digital first responder, if I could. So when the, our biggest customers are hospital and school and universities and retailers and pharmacies. These are some of our biggest customers. They are looking, in some cases, actually hire more people to serve their communities and customers. And every one of them, as they , hire new people and so and so on, will I just naturally coming to us and when they come to us, serve them. And it's been really gratifying Dave. If I could read you the emails I've been getting the last few days. I got one from a very prominent City, the United States, the mayor's office, the CTO, just thanking us and our people. For being available who are being careful not to, we're being very sensitive to the pricing. To making sure customers don't feel like, in any way, that we're looking at the economics of it will always come just serve your customer. I got an email yesterday from a very large pharmacy. Routinely we were talking to folks in the, in the healthcare industry. University, a president of a school. In fact, Southern New Hampshire University, who I mentioned Jim Cramer. Sent me a note saying, "hey, we're really grateful you even mentioned our name." and I'm not doing this because, Southern New Hampshire University is doing an incredible job of moving a lot of their platform to online to help tens of thousands. And they were one of the early customers to adopt virtual desktops, and the cloud desktops, and the services. So, as we call. So in any of these use cases, I just tell our employees, "Be authentic. "First off take care of your families. "It's really important to take care of your own health and safety. But once you've done that, be authentic in serving our customers." That's what VR has always done. From the days of dying green, to bombers, to Pat, and all of us here now. Take care of our customers and we'll be fine. >> Yeah, and I perfectly understand your sensitivity to that notion of ambulance-chasing and I'm by no means trying to bait you into doing that. But I would stress, the industry needs you and the tech it-- many in the tech industry, like VMware, have very strong balance sheets. They're extremely viable companies and we as a community, as an industry, need companies like VMware to step up, be flexible on pricing, and terms, and payment, and things like that nature. Which it sounds like you're doing. Because the heroes that are on the front lines, they're fighting a battle every day, every hour, every minute and they need infrastructure to be able to work remotely with the stay-at-home mandates. >> I think that's right. And listen, let me talk a little bit of one of the things you talked about. Which is financing and we moved a lot of our business to increasingly, to the cloud. And SaaS and subscription services are a lot more radical than offer license and maintenance. We make that choice available to customers, in many cases we lead with cloud-first solutions. And then we also have financing services from our partners like Dell financial services that really allow a more gradual, radibal payment. Do people want financing? And , I think if there are other scenarios. Jim asked me on his show, "What will you do if one of your companies go bankrupt?" I don't know, that's an unprecedented, we didn't have, we had obviously, the financial crisis. I wasn't here at VMware during the dot-com blow up where companies just went bankrupt in 2000. I was at Informatica at the time. So, I'm sure we will see some unprecedented-- but I will tell you, we have a very fortunate to be profitable, have a good balance sheet. Whatever scenario, if we take care of our customers, I mean, we have been very fortunate to be one of the highest NPS, Net promoter scorer, companies in the industry. And , I've been reaching out to many of our top customers. Just a courtesy, without any agenda other than, we're just checking in. A friend in need is a friend indeed. It's a line that I remembered. And just reach out your customers. Hey listen. Checking in. No, other than can we help you, if there's anything and thank you, especially for ones who are retailers, pharmacies, hospitals, first responders. Thank them for what they're doing to serve many of their people. Especially people in retail. Think about the people who have to go into warehouses to service us, to deliver the stuff that comes to our home. I mean, these people are potentially at risk, but they do it. Put on masks. Braving health situations. That often need the paycheck. We're very grateful for that, and our hope is that this world situation, listen, I mentioned it on on TV as a kind of a little bit of a traffic jam. I love to ski and when I go off and to Tahoe, I tell my family, "I don't know how long it's going to take." with check up on Waze or Google Maps and usually takes four hours, no traffic. Every now and then it'll take five, six, seven. Worst case eight. I had some situation, never happen to me but some of my friends would just got stuck there and had to sleep in their car. But it's pretty much the case, you will eventually get there. I was talking to my dad, who is 80, and he's doing well. And he said, this feels a little bit like World War Two because you're kind of, in many places there. They had a bunker, shelter. Not just shelter in place, but bunker shelter in that time. But that lasted, whatever five, six years. I don't think this is going to last five, six years. It may be five, six months. It might be a whole year. I don't know. I can guarantee it's not going to be six years. So it won't be as bad as World War two. It certainly won't be as bad as the Spanish Flu. Which took 39 people and two percent of the world. Including five percent of my country, India in the 1918 to 1920 period, a hundred years ago. So we will get through this. I like, we shall overcome. I'm not going to sing it for you. It's one of my favorite Louis Armstrong songs, but find ways by which you encourage, uplift people. Making sure, it is tough, it is very tough times and we have to make sure that we get through this. That jobs are preserved as best as we can because that's the part I'm really, really concerned about. The loss of jobs and how we're going to recover as US economy, but we will make it through this. >> Yeah, and I want to sort of second what you're saying. That look, I know there are a lot of people at home that going a little bit stir crazy and this, the maybe a little bit of depression setting in. But to your point, we have to be empathic for those that are suffering. The elderly, who are in intensive care and also those frontline workers. And then I love your optimism. We will get through this. This is not the Spanish Flu. We have, it's a different world, a different technology world. Our focus, like many other small businesses is, we obviously want to survive. We want to maintain our full employment. We want to serve our customers and we, as you, believe that that is the recipe for getting through this. And so, I love the optimism. >> And listen, and we can help be a part of my the moment you texted me and said, "Hey, can I be in your show?" If it helps you drive, whatever you need, sponsorship revenue, advertising. I'm here and the same thing for all of our friends who have to adjust the way in which the wo-- we want to be there to help them. And I've chosen as best as I can, in terms of how I can support my family, the sort of five, five of us at home now. All fighting over bandwidth, the three kids, and my wife, and I. To be positive with them, to be in my social media presence, as best as possible. Every day to be positive in what I tweet out to the world And point people to a hope of what's going to come. I don't know how long this is going to last. But I can tell you. I mean, just the fact that you and I are talking over video interview. High fidelity, reasonably high fidelity, high bandwidth. The ability to connect. I mean it is a whole lot better than a lot of what happened in World War 2 or the Spanish flu. And I hope at the end of it, some of us, some of this will forever change our life. I hope for for example in a lot of our profession. We have to travel to visit customers. And now that I'm building some of these relationships virtually. I hope that maybe my travel percentage will drop. It's actually good for the environment, good for my family life. But if we can lower that percentage, still get things done through Zoom calls, and Workspace ONE, and things of those kinds, that would be awesome. So that's how I think about the way in which I'm adapting my life. And then I set certain personal goals. This year, for example, we're expanding a lot of our focus in security. We have a billion dollar security business and we're looking to grow that NSX, Common Black, Workspace ONE, and accompanying tools and I made it a goal to try and meet at all my sales teams. A thousand C-ISOs. I mean off I know a lot of CIO's in the 25 years, I've had, maybe five, six thousand of them in the world. And blessed to build that relationship over the years of my SAP and VMware experience, but I don't know. I mean, I knew probably 50 or 100. Maybe a few hundred CISO's. And now that we have a portfolio it's relevant to grant them and I think very compelling across network security and End Point security. We own the companies with such a strong portfolio in both those areas. I'm reaching out to them and I'm happy to tell you, I connected, I've got the names of 1,000 of the top CISO's in the Fortune 1000, Global 2000, and connecting with many of them through LinkedIn and other mixers. I hope I talked to many of them through the course of the year. And many of them will be virtual conversations. Again, just to talk to them about being a trusted advisor to us. Seeing if we can help them. And then of course, there will be a product pitch for NSX and Carbon Black and how we're different from whoever it is, Palo Alto and F5 and Netscaler and the SD line players or semantic McAfee Crowdstrike. We're differentiated so I want to certainly earn some of the business. But these are ways in which you adjust to a virtual kind of economy. Where I'm not having to physically go and meet them. >> Yeah, and we share your optimism and those CISO's are, they're heroes, superheroes on the front line. I'll tell ya a quick aside. So John Furrier and I, we're in Barcelona. When really, the coronavirus came to our heightened awareness and John looked at me and said, "Dave we've been doing digital for 10 years. "We have to take all of the software that we've developed, "all these assets and help our customers pivot." So we share that optimism and we're actually lucky to be able to have the studios and be able to have these conversations with you guys. So again, we share that, that optimism. I want to ask you, just on guidance. A lot of companies have come out and said we're not giving guidance anymore. I didn't see anything relative to VMware. Have you guys announced anything on guidance in terms of how you're going to communicate? Where are you at with that? >> No, I think we're just, I mean listen, we take this very carefully because of reg FD and the regulations of public company. So we just allow the normal quarterly ins. And of outside of that, if our CFO decides they may. But right now we're just continuing business as usual. We're in the middle of our, kind of, whatever, middle of our quarter. Quarter ends April. So work hard do the best we can in all the regions, be available for all of our teams. Pat, myself, and others we're, to the extent that we're healthy and we're doing well, but thank God, is reach out to CISO's and CIO's and CTO's and CEOs and help them. And I believe people will spend money. The questions we have to go over. And I think the stronger will survive. The companies with better balance sheet and unfortunately, some of the weaker companies won't. And I think quite frankly, if you do your job well. I don't mean this in any negative sense. The stronger companies will take share in these environments. I was watching a segment for John Chambers. He has been through a number of different, when I know him, so an I have, I've talked to him about some of the stuff. He will tell you that he, advises is a lot of his companies now. From the experiences he saw in 2008, 2001, in many of the crisis and supply chain issues. This is a time where leadership counts. The strong get stronger. Never waste a good crisis, as Winston Churchill said. And as you do that, the strong will come strong because you figure out ways by which, if you're going to make changes that were planned for one or two years from now. Maybe a good time to make them is now. And as you do that you communicate a vision for where you're going. Very clearly to your employees. Again incessantly over and over again. They, hopefully, are able to repeat it in their own words in a simple fashion, and then you get all of your employees in our case 30,000 plus employees of VMware lined up. So one of the things that we've been doing a lot of these days is communicate, communicate, communicate, internally. I've talked a lot about our communication with customer. But inside, our employees, we do calls with our top leaders over Zoom. Calls, intimate calls, and many, often we're adjusting to where I'll say a few words. I have a mandatory every two week goal with all of my senior most leaders. I'll speak for about five minutes and then for the next 25 minutes, the top 12, 15 of them I listen. To things, I want all of them to speak up. There's nobody who should stay silent, because I want to hear what's going on in that corner of the world. >> But fantastic Sanjay. Well, I mean, Boeing, I heard this morning's going to get some support from the government. And strategically that's very important for our country. Congress finally passed, looks like they're passing that bill, and support which is awesome. It's been, especially for all these small businesses that are struggling and want to maintain full employment. I heard Steve Mnuchin the other day saying, "Look, we're talking about two months of payroll "for people if they agree to keep people employed. "or hire them back." I mean the Fed. people say, oh the FED is out of arrows. The Feds, not out of arrows. I mean, I'm not an economist either. But the Fed. has a lot of bullets in their gun, as they say. So Sanjay, thanks so much. You're an awesome leader and really an inspirational executive and a good friend so thank you so much for coming on theCUBE. >> Dave, always a pleasure. Please say hi to all of my friends, your co-anchors, and the staff at CUBE. Thank them for all their hard work. It's a pleasure to talk to you this morning. I wish you, your family, and your friends and all of our community, stay safe and be well. >> Thank you Sanjay and thank you for watching everybody. This is Dave Vellante for the cube and we'll see you next time. (soft music)